Jul 07

Episode 377: Anti-Aging Tips, Entering Perimenopause, Treating Menopausal Symptoms, HRT, CGMs, Hashimoto’s Disease, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 377 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-fed beef, organic chicken, heritage pork, wild-caught seafood, nutrient-rich, raised sustainably the way nature intended, and shipped straight to your door! For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get bone-in chicken thighs, top sirloins, or salmon—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get bone-in chicken thighs, top sirloins, or salmon—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

SCHWANK GRILL: Visit schwankgrills.com and use promo code IFPODCAST to get $150 OFF a Schwank Grill!

Study: Enhanced muscle activity during interrupted sitting improves glycemic control in overweight and obese men

NUTRISENSE: Get $50 off a CGM subscription at nutrisense.io/ifpodcast with the code IFPODCAST!

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any drink mix purchase!

Listener Q&A: Wendy - Does [IF] work? I tried it and never lost anything - may not work for everyone.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 377 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 377 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everybody. How are you today, Vanessa? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm good. I was telling you before this, I'm really excited because literally, I just read it, another Fox article came out. She heavily featured me. I'm really honored. The article is called Three Women, Ages 41, 55, and 64, Share Their Secrets to Better Health and Longevity. And the subtitle is, For Women's Health Month, Three Mothers and Grandmothers Revealed How They're Defying Their Chronological Ages. And then it goes through the stories of the three women. So it goes through the stories of three different women, and it tells about the things that they're doing for healthy aging, which is, of course, right up my alley. But then, so that's like the whole first part of the article. And then the second part of the article, it says, A Biohackers Five Quick Tips for Healthy Aging. And then it says, Melanie Avalon, health influencer, entrepreneur, and host of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, where we are right now. And the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcasts agree that women can take proactive steps to slow their pace of aging. And then I go through five different ways that women can help optimize their aging and try to decide if we should play the guessing game here. What's kind of funny is, so the way this went down is yesterday, the Fox editor, Melissa, she reached out and said she was writing a story and would love some of my quotes. And so I wrote out all of my answers. And then after curiosity, I was like, I'm going to ask chat GPT what it thinks I would say. So I said, I was like, is Melanie Avalon, can you like answer this, you know, prompt? And it literally, it was so scary. It listed, I mean, it listed everything I said, almost in the exact same order. So the first thing I put in my answer was prioritized protein. And then chat GPT was like, prioritized protein. I was like, oh my gosh. And then I talked in my answer to her about leucine specifically prioritizing leucine. And then chat GPT included that as well. Literally everything I'd said, it gave a list and then some and that actually gave me further inspiration because it listed a few things. I was like, oh yeah, that's true. So I like added those in my own words. I didn't like just copy and paste. But yeah, so the the five ones that are in the article number one is optimize sleep. So I talk about how to, you know, create a sleep sanctuary to support restorative night tangent. By the way, when you were pregnant with your kids and everything, like how do you, well, a historically, are you a good sleeper? And then did that change with motherhood?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I sleep pretty well. Pregnancy, you start waking up a lot throughout the night. So I haven't had uninterrupted sleep for three years. I looked it up once and it's akin to night shift workers almost when you're up for periods of the night because then you're also waking up to breastfeed once the baby comes. But before the baby comes, most pregnant women have issues like heartburn and all kinds of stuff, being uncomfortable on their side. I luckily did not, but I did have to just wake up to pee a lot. And then I feel like that kind of starts preparing you for them when the baby comes because then you have to wake up a lot to nurse. So actually when we were at the hospital over Christmas, when Damien was in the NICU, it was the only time I had uninterrupted sleep because he was in the NICU all night. And I was sleeping at the hospital for about two weeks and I actually had uninterrupted sleep for like six hours each night. And I felt Pete and I would wake up and be like, Oh my God, I feel so good because the sleep was so amazing. But yeah, your sleep just isn't the same and it's a season of life where it's very different. But I feel like I'm lucky. I'm getting pretty decent sleep for what, for where we're at right now. And I know it's like a temporary thing, but yeah, why do you ask?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm just super curious whenever I think of like young mothers and things. It just seems like the sleep would be like madness. I just, I cannot. I cannot.

Vanessa Spina:
It's not that bad. I was really... We were both really scared of it. It was one of the reasons I think we held off on having kids for a while because we were scared of the sleep deprivation because of the way people talk about it. But it's weird how your brain adjusts. It really does because if you even get two hours of sleep early in the morning, your brain right away goes into the deepest state of sleep. So you can catch up. So you, instead of going into it more gradually, you adapt and then you actually feel pretty good. I feel great most days. I'm on very limited sleep. Your body adjusts and you adapt and then it's a temporary phase of life, but it's so worth it. Everything else makes it so worth it.

Melanie Avalon:
That's actually really interesting because I was listening to a, an interview with Matthew Walker, which I would love to try to get him on the show. I really, really need to, but he was talking about different studies where people are deprived of certain versions of sleep. And when they get so deprived like that, when they actually do fall asleep, they immediately jump into that stage that they needed. So I think it was mostly like with people who are deprived of REM sleep, for example, like severely deprived of it. And then when they actually did get a chance to sleep, it was like, not the same thing as what you were saying, where you jumped right in, but, but sort of, we said it happens actually with people who, I don't have it, I don't want to misquote this, I think he was saying how like C or like marijuana can affect, can make you get less REM sleep. And then when people come off it, they're probably like preferentially prefer REM sleep, so they'll have like crazy dreams because they're like restocking up on the REM stages. It's pretty interesting. The tips I gave in this were to implement a sleep sanctuary to best support a restorative night, including sticking to a consistent wind down routine and sleep schedule in a cool, dark environment, using a cooling mattress, avoiding late night, blue light exposure, and finding the optimal sleep position are some ways women can achieve better sleep quality. I got inspired by the sleep position because I just did a whole interview on that last week. That was number one. Number two, I said to seek hormonal support as needed. And I talked about the importance of micronutrient rich whole foods in your menopausal years, and at the same time also getting sleep and addressing your stress and reducing your toxic exposure. And then I did say, have you and I talked about our thoughts on hormone replacement therapy? So I did say, my answer I gave her was longer than this. What she kept from it was for some women, hormone replacement therapy may be an option, and then the quote is many women may find that the benefits outweigh their risks. Do you have thoughts on the women's health initiative and hormone replacement therapy? I feel like it comes up a lot in podcasts and interviews I have, like the drama surrounding it, basically.

Vanessa Spina:
I've done maybe five or six episodes in the last year just on HRT because it's so fascinating to me. And also because the data in the Women's Health Initiative has recently been reassessed and they found that actually it was bioidentical hormones were actually protective against breast cancer in women. And it's really important to have the progesterone balancing out the estrogen. But I've had some amazing guests, Dr. Sarah Gottfried. I've had several hormone specialists on the podcast because I wanted to learn about it for understanding perimenopause because it can start as early as a decade before menopause. And the average age for menopause is 50. But for women who have it younger, like 45, that means like 35, you could start having symptoms of perimenopause. And women seem to be having it more and more now, perimenopause. So I wanted to really educate myself on it and I feel like I've learned so much just from – actually, it was just in the last two months most of those episodes came out. So that's kind of been a big topic and I feel very empowered by the information that I've been learning and very – yeah, I would say empowered and excited to have this understanding for that when that time comes for me when I'm not cycling anymore. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, really really similar. It's really interesting because I mentioned it before but and you mentioned it what you were talking about But basically the the women's health initiative was this massive study That it was actually stopped Early the takeaway they were giving was that hormone replacement therapy was causing cancer in women and I know like Peter T. I feels very strongly about it. He actually has a really good interview With the main woman who did the study and I mean he completely deconstructs it me more deconstructs it I mean he deconstructs it when he taught when he's talking to her But he deconstructs it more when he's not talking to her It's quite possible that the way it was presented about the the risks of the cancer rates They're like tiny but they were like presented differently like relative versus absolute risk I don't think they even I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure they didn't even really correlate to Mortality like it was just a couple more a handful more cases of cancer But not even mortality related to that and compared to like the benefits of women feeling like their lives are being changed With menopausal symptoms or preparing menopausal symptoms being on hormone replacement therapy I find it really interesting too because like you said a lot of the people that we interview do have this opinion But people they take the other of you which is what the women health initiative put out there actually the book I'm reading right now the Michael Greger book. He just had a whole long section on it about The way it was presented as a major negative. So I just think there's a lot of nuance there. I find it really interesting

Vanessa Spina:
Why am I not surprised? My goodness, and he's a man. Sorry, but.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, you know, it's funny. So I was thinking about that, you know, it's so funny because the way he presents it is like he presents it like, you know, that like the system is making these hormones that are like patronizing women, like taking control of women. So he comes off as like, it's like he's freeing women by saying they don't have to take on the risks of hormone replacement therapy. But I just want to be like,

Vanessa Spina:
Literally, the sound of his book hitting the bottom of my garbage can, if I would read that part. I mean, I can't even begin to... What I've been learning specifically from these experts, which a lot of it is new to me, is how bad that viewpoint is for women and how damaging it's been for women. Because women have been afraid of HRT. They're not taking it. They're dealing with all the symptoms when they don't need to be. One of the biggest symptoms is having poor body composition changes, so losing their bone mass and muscle mass. The doctors who are not really very well trained on these aspects of HRT and how it's changed and these different approaches are just giving women the same options. I think ablation is one of the options and going on birth control. Even though birth control has synthetic progesterone, which is the problematic one, they're telling women to go on birth control when they're in perimenopause to deal with the symptoms instead of just offering them bioidentical HRT, which can help most of those symptoms go away. That kind of rhetoric, to me, is really not of service to women, and the fact that it's from a man's perspective, all the podcasts lately, I feel like I'm raging against some just being honest with my thoughts.

Melanie Avalon:
I will say, you know, what's really interesting about it is, well, first of all, stepping back. So I have read other books from other guests, not Michael Greger, who have said similar things and some of them are women. So I don't think it's always necessarily just like the male, you know, view of that. And again, Peter is a male and he's saying the opposite. All of that said, I find it really interesting that, well, especially with Michael Greger, because he's all about like the science and the data. I don't know why he didn't go in and actually analyze the data the way Peter does, if what he does is really analyze data. Oh my goodness, wait, just really quick tangent. I'm so excited when I interviewed him. I'm trying to decide if I should bring this up. I was waiting for, I was like waiting the whole book with bated breath and it's a long book. I'm like halfway through. But I remember, do you remember when I interviewed, I think I told you about it, like Dr. Neil Bernard about his soy study, his soy vegan menopause study.

Vanessa Spina:
I can't remember exactly what it was.

Melanie Avalon:
about. So basically I had him on my show because he actually pitched to come on the show because he did a study on, speaking of menopause, looking at menopausal symptoms in women on a standard diet or a vegan diet with added soy. And they found that the vegan diet with added soy massively affected, beneficially, the women's hormonal symptoms during menopause. So the conclusion was that the soy, that adding soy to your diet, did this. But the setup of the study only compared a vegan diet with soy to a normal diet. There was no vegan diet without soy. So how did you know it was the soy? Like literally the soy could have been making it worse and they could have done better on just a straight up vegan diet, you know? Like you literally cannot make that conclusion.

Vanessa Spina:
at all. Yeah, that's bizarre.

Melanie Avalon:
seems really bizarre. So I was like waiting with beta breath during Michael's book because I was like, I was like, I'm going to be ready for it. I know he's going to bring up this study and I'm going to be ready for it. And then he did bring it up. He was like, in the soy chapter, he was like, this one study found that adding soy, he didn't mention the study, but he's like, this one study found that adding soy to your diet, you know, did blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, this is the Bernard study. I know it. And I went and looked at the references and it was, I was so excited. So I'm like, but it's things like that where because he has hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of references. Actually, I just knew to wait, look for that because I had so extensively read an interview about that study. So I'm just like, I don't have time though to go check every single reference that he references to make sure it's not that situation with anybody really. It's just hard. There's just like so much information out there and opinions. And it's really hard to get to the truth of the matter, you know?

Vanessa Spina:
know, at the end of the day, you have to, I think, you know, do your own due diligence, draw your own conclusions, you know, I mean, everyone has different interpretations of the data. Sometimes I like to look at the person who's giving me the information and ask myself also, you know, is this someone that I want to emulate? Or like, is there does this person seem like they are healthy? Does this person seem like they have a young biological age or, you know, whatever it is, like, we all have our different criteria. But yeah, it is, it is hard sometimes when people give such opposing opinions on things, I totally get it. And I feel like a lot of listeners could relate to that as well. It's part of why I went back to school because I was like, I just can't, I don't know who to trust, I have to go back and educate myself more so that I can draw my own conclusions and understand how to read studies and do all this because it was so frustrating dealing with all the opposing opinions. It's so true.

Melanie Avalon:
And, and I thought not to go on an AI tangent, but I, I honestly thought when I started using chat GPT that it was going to make this better because I thought it was going to, um, like, just objectively look at studies and things. I think out of all the things I use it for, the worst thing to use it for is finding studies. Every single time I have asked it for studies, it makes up studies or quote studies, but it's not, it's not in there. I don't think it's set up to like go through the journals correctly on the internet because, and then I was listening to an interview about this and they were saying how like some lawyers were using it for a court case and it literally just like made up studies that did not exist, which is really scary.

Vanessa Spina:
Modely concerning. I know.

Melanie Avalon:
I know, just a little bit. I had to do a math problem the other day and it gave me the answer. I was trying to calculate what I had paid somebody over a certain amount of months taking into account like certain days. So I was like, I paid this person this amount for five months and this amount of days starting on, you know, like all these parameters. I was like, how much did I pay her? And it was like, you paid her and gave me a number. And I was like, great. Can you give me the breakdown of how you came up with that? And I was like, sure. And then I gave a breakdown and it equaled a different number. And I was like, so wait, so what's the answer? And I was like, you just gave me two different numbers. It was like, oh, you're right. Let's do this again to make sure we get it right. I was like, okay, this is like not, this is very concerning.

Vanessa Spina:
How can you make so many mistakes? That's wild. I mean, from all of it, I've barely used it at all. And every time you talk about it, it makes me want to use it less, so.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, to answer your question about how it makes so many mistakes, I think there's two main reasons it does. One is what I mentioned before is that it hallucinates. So if it doesn't know the answer, it can't not know the answer. So it just makes up an answer. That is a problem. Number two, it uses predictive, like I was just listening to a podcast about this, like predictive analysis to come up with things. So it's always, it's not necessarily hardcore. I mean, it is looking at the current data, but it's also predicting. And so to come up with its information. And so when it goes on these trades where it's predicting, then it's just predicting the wrong things. But it thinks it's, it thinks it's coming up with the right thing based on what it just did. If that makes sense. Yes, it's very concerning. So back to the study. Number three, this is the one that I gave her as number one. And this is something I know that you feel very passionate about. Let me know if you agree with everything I said, Vanessa, I was actually thinking about you when I was writing this because I was like, wait, am I like, am I recommending the right thing? I was like, I need Vanessa, like in my head right now to answer this question. Okay. Number three, optimize muscle mass. Okay. Please fact check me. Okay. So I said, maintaining muscle mass is crucial for healthy aging, according to Avalon declines in muscle mass and strength are intrinsically tied to mortality, playing a causative role in falls and metabolic issues. She said, I don't think I said causative role in metabolic issues, but oh well. Okay. Here's where I had a question. I said aging typically leads to reduce muscle protein synthesis. Women should pay careful attention to getting ample protein as they age with a particular focus on the amino acid leucine, which stimulates muscle protein synthesis. That's all good, right?

Vanessa Spina:
I think so, yeah, I think I usually say that muscle protein breakdown rates are higher, but I guess you could say it as muscle proteins of this goes down, but I guess it's like six of one, half dozen, the other, whatever hour that's...

Melanie Avalon:
That's so true. That's such a good perspective. Yeah, I gave her more information, but it didn't make it into here. But I was talking about the, like the leucine threshold. And I said, I recommended, I was googling and like in clinical journals, I found three grams for the leucine protein threshold. But then my interview with Dr. Gabrielle Lye, she said 2 .5 grams. So I said 2 .5 to three grams. What do you think is the threshold?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. So Don usually heard Dr. Gabrielle Alliance mentor and they worked on a lot of this research together. He says two and a half to three grams, but he says three grams maxes it out. But I really want to talk to Don again, because now that this new study came out with no upper limit on muscle protein synthesis, I don't think he'll revise any of his statements or opinions, but I'm just so curious what he thinks about it. I should text Gabrielle and ask her because I know she talks to him like every day. But yeah, I think the leucine threshold would still be the same, even if there's no upper limit. But I'm not sure if the concept of maxing it out.

Melanie Avalon:
changes is different based on that information. Yeah. You have to let me know if she, what she says. Definitely. I said aging women should aim for a gram of protein per pound of body weight. So do we feel good about that recommendation?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think that's, that's a good number for like the mass population. Cause it's, it's usually, I usually say 1 .6 to 2 .2 grams per kg, which is like 0 .8. If you're more sedentary, but if you're a woman who's, you know, doing any kind of resistance training or activity, then that works out to like one gram per pound. But it's like, I think one gram per pound is a good target because a lot of people don't get there anyway, so it's better to overshoot.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Awesome. Yeah. Cause I was, I was torn answering it because I know what the official, you know, dietary recommendations are, which are in my opinion, tragically low. I was like, do I need to like go and explain this? And I was like, I'll just throw it in there and hopefully she'll just put it in. And then I said, women can also engage in strength training to further support muscle growth and maintenance. So that was my, my protein one. I'm really happy though, that she included the, uh, the leucine. I thought she, she might cut that out cause I thought she might think that it was too nuanced for the, uh, general population of Fox news. But, um, and then number four, there's only five, so we're almost on number four was monitor essential markers. So I said, what aging women should embrace the agency to take their health into their own hands. And I recommended working with conventional doctors to regularly check key health metrics, such as blood pressure, blood sugar levels, cholesterol, and bone density, along with other markers of disease. What she did not include is my second paragraph also talked about DIY, blood work and genetic testing through online platforms that did not make it into the cut. So now it sounds like I'm saying just talk with conventional doctors. It's so interesting to see how the, uh, you know, how the editing process can like change kind of what you're saying. I mean, I do recommend that, but I didn't just recommend working with conventional doctors. And then number five is something we talk about on this show all the time. It's not intermittent fasting, which actually was one of my points. And she did not include that, but I said, number five, achieve proper glycemic control. So I said that poor glycemic control is linked to a myriad of degenerative diseases from prediabetes and diabetes to cardiovascular disease and cognitive decline. I said that aging women can implement an unprocessed whole foods based diet, low to moderate and carbs, depending on their tolerance. And then the last quote of the article is women can also opt to wear a continuous glucose monitor CGM to monitor their blood sugar levels. So get in the word of CGM out there. That was a lot. It was a nice little, it was a nice surprise because whenever she asks for quotes, I, I never know if it's going to be just like a quote or like what it's going to be. And so to have it be kind of, I mean, this was amazing for it to be like an entire, I mean, it's basically just what I said in a list. So, so yes. Oh my gosh, it's been half an hour. How did I do that? Okay. What's new in your world?

Vanessa Spina:
I tried to make the sugar -free marshmallows. Oh, you did?

Melanie Avalon:
How did it go? Wait, you said you tried to. You tried to.

Vanessa Spina:
Try this afternoon and they make recipes I followed made it seem super easy I always thought that marshmallows are made of egg whites They're not It's mostly water. Okay. What do you think it is? What do you think they're made out of?

Melanie Avalon:
Gelatin and water and like vanilla and shh

Vanessa Spina:
sugar. Okay, you knew. I didn't know. I had no idea. I thought it was like egg whites or something. I had no idea. So that's exactly what it is. So if you make sugar free ones, you basically just do it instead with a sugar free, you know, alternative. So I used a wreath you taught, which is swerve, like basically the confectioners version of it, which I made in my blender and I got it started. And then we really had to go put the babies down for a nap. So you have to froth like whip it up in the mixer. So I had it in the stand mixer and I was like, well, it says it needs to mix for like five to 10 minutes. So I'll just get them to bed and then I'll come back and, you know, put it in. So it was taking a long time to get them to sleep. So my husband, Pete, I was like, can you just go check on it? And then I sent him like the recipe, I sent him some screenshots. I'm like, if it looks like this, then just like take it out, pour it in the pan. Cause I already had the pan set up. Okay.

Melanie Avalon:
important question, where are Pete's skills on the cooking?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh boy. Like, non -existent. Oh. Not existent. Like, he just doesn't cook at all. I mean, he can, because we always tease him. We were dating. He made me like ex -Benedict, and he made all these things, but then, like, he's never entered the kitchen again, so. But he grills. He grills, right? He grills. So right now, I have, I have him, you know, doing all the dinners, which is awesome. Wait.

Melanie Avalon:
Can we do a shout out? Yes. If he was in the US, what grill would he be grilling on?

Vanessa Spina:
probably a schwank grill because that one everyone is talking about it right now and you basically can grill your meat and everything your steaks burgers shrimp everything like restaurant quality so I would love to get one of those when we're back in the US

Melanie Avalon:
He uses infrared heat to get the the perfect crisp char. I'm actually going to um, I'm trying to you said you did in a re -doctor. What's his name? Chafney?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I'm interviewing him on Thursday.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, you are? Oh, you're interviewing him. Oh, it's upcoming. That was just a coincidence. I haven't actually like dived into his work. All I know is he's a carnivore doctor. Yeah. Isn't his podcast, is it the plant free? Maybe he was on that podcast. What is his podcast? He has a podcast, right?

Vanessa Spina:
All I know is he is a carnivore doctor, and I'm pretty sure he was raised that way without really eating plant food. So that's what I'm really curious about. But my team booked the episode, so I have to do some prep on it, and I haven't done it yet because I have someone else that I'm interviewing tomorrow, one of my favorite protein scientists, Dr. Jose Antonio. So I'm really excited. He just published a new paper on protein, so I've been preparing for that. And then once that is done, I will switch over to Dr. Chaffee, but I know he loves that grill also. And being a carnivore, when you're a carnivore, you really become all about the cooking methods and the different ways to make your steak taste amazing because it's the main thing that you eat. So I think carnivores could do really well investing in some kind of grill like that because then you could basically have restaurant quality steak at home every day.

Melanie Avalon:
His podcast is the plant free MD podcast. Yes. So if listeners are interested, they can go to schwinkgrills.com and use the promo code I have podcast to get $150 off. So that's S C H W A N K grills.com with the code I have podcasts for $150 off. And I think I've asked like an influencer person, right? No, that was pre

Vanessa Spina:
I think I remember posting our engagement on my Instagram as an influencer. I shared like when Pete proposed and pictures of it and stuff. So it was around, it was sort of like maybe a year, but I had already been with Pete for a long time. So yeah, I was not single or anything.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, although actually it doesn't have to be dating, but I always just think it's funny because like dating or just meeting people, I'm always talking about all these things. And then I always feel like at the end, I'll want to give them the codes because I have codes for all the things I talk about and I want to give them a discount. But then I feel like, especially when it's like a new person you just met and you're like going on about like the continuous glucose monitors and all the things. And then at the end, you want to be like, oh, and you can go to neutrascents .io and use the coupon code.

Vanessa Spina:
You just want to share the wealth, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
I do. So what I do now, I don't do this with strangers really, but if I were to go on a date or something, I usually tell the person at the beginning, I'm like, listen, anything I talk about, I probably have codes for. So just prepare yourself for that.

Vanessa Spina:
Get ready to enjoy the world. Yeah, I love it.

Melanie Avalon:
oh my gosh okay wait i completely interrupted what were we talking oh yeah pete not the best in the kitchen would love the showing grill if he was in the us what happened with the marshmallows

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, so I'm texting him pictures. I'm like, okay, it should look like this picture, step four, which is basically the stand mixer just filled with like a frothy white, you know, as if you were making meringue or something like just filled with like white frothy marshmallow. And then once it gets to that stage, which I assumed it was by that point, because I'd been in the room with them for like 20 minutes trying to get both of them down. And he's like, sends me this picture and it looks like it's kind of what it should be. And then he sends me another picture and it just looks like this, like a bunch of gravel like spread out parchment. So I came out and I'm like, what is this? Like, I guess it just ran for too long. And even if it got to the right point, you're supposed to move pretty fast from getting it out of the bowl and spreading it out. It says that in most of the recipes, but I think it was mixing for too long because it basically just, I tasted it and it just tasted like, uh, like the taste, especially the aftertaste was marshmallow, but the texture and everything was like all wrong. So I have to try again tomorrow and we'll see. But in the meantime, I reordered the truck zero ones because they're so good. They are exactly like actual marshmallows. And until I get my marshmallow skills, marshmallow making skills up to par, I don't know, it's going to take a little while. And they tasted very strongly of a wreath through tall. So which has a very strong minty aftertaste that I don't love, I'm not a bigger wreath through tall person, but that's the one like powdered sweetener thing that I have access to here. So I might try it with xylitol. I might have to play around with like a combination of stevia and something, you know, unless I can find something else, but the person who wrote the blog on it, I think I got it from food dreamer. She has a blog all day. I dream about food and she has a lot of cookbooks out and stuff. I love her blog. Yeah. She's got wonderful recipes and she said, don't try it with other lows. She said, try it with the best she found was Swerve and this other sweetener I had never heard of before. Oh, really? What was it? Do you remember? It was something with a B. I had just never heard of it. So I'm not sure what it is made of exactly, but the Chalk Zero ones are made of resistant dextrin. So I don't think that that's something that I could find. I think it's more of a manufacturer, like confectioners product. But anyway, I'm trying. I will report back and if I do it successfully, I will definitely share the recipe, whatever one that I end up using or playing with, or if I make my own version, if anyone else wants to try them. The other thing is I was like, maybe cause I like putting them in my element of hot chocolate. That's what I have after dinner. It's like a kind of nice like dessert treat. And so I was like, maybe if I just put them in my hot chocolate, I'll just get the taste of it. And then I put them in my, my element caramel chocolate, which I whip makeup with unsweetened almond milk. And I made it for the start of our podcast. And like, I looked down two seconds later and they were gone. Like they just dissolved into nothing. So I just have a very, very sweet chocolate caramel drink, which is fine. But yeah, no floating, no like slow melting marshmallows in my coffee. But it's funny because I don't really, I haven't had sweets or things like that, even like dark chocolate or anything in so long. And I was really surprised as I was testing with my CGM that they do not bump up my blood glucose at all. The Chalk Zero ones, I think partly because I'm quite active during the day, but they don't bump it up barely at all. And then last night I was like, maybe I should test this dark chocolate. I have, I have some dark chocolate, like smarties kind of things in dark chocolate bars that I have for Luca, because if we go to birthday parties or things like that, where the other kids are having treats, like I'll usually bring something for him. So I decided to try two pieces of the dark chocolate. And it was very good. Surprisingly, I was not tempted to have more, which is weird for me because I've always been more of an abstainer versus moderator, but I was fine. I think it's because I was after dinner, I had like, you know, enough protein. I was fully satisfied, but it did make my blood sugar go up. And then when I was reading, I mean, it was fine. It was like a normal reaction, but the truck zero ones didn't. So I was reading on Carolyn's blog about the marshmallows, her recipe. She said, don't use maltitol in the marshmallows because it makes your blood sugar go up. So I didn't know that about maltitol. And that's what I discovered myself yesterday when I tried it. So I'm still having so much fun with the CGM and testing things. I just tried a new sensor. I put one on on Sunday and I'm just going to keep rolling with it. Cause it's been so much fun. I'm learning so much about how my body works. And I'm just been so surprised at the things that I thought I just assumed. I'm like, this is probably spiking my blood sugar. And they weren't at all. And you know, it's, it's really cool to see when you have built up that insulin sensitivity and you are an active person. And, you know, I think I've got a lot of people now doing this, you know, 10 squats every hour since I, I posted about that study. And then I did a podcast episode about it last week. And I've had so many people commenting and damning me that they're doing squats all day long, every hour. So every time I do them, I think of everyone else who's also doing 10 squats and for listeners, this, we talked about it, I think last episode, but this study came out showing that doing 10 body weight squats every 45 minutes in this new study was better for blood sugar control than a half hour walk. And it turns out because you're activating the glute muscles and the quadriceps and producing lactate and the lactic acid is making the glucose transporters of glute glut four glucose transporters go to the surface of cells. So they can take up glucose. So that's what lowers the blood sugar, but by activating the glutes and quadricep muscles, you get this great blood sugar control. So it's, it's way better than doing a 30 minute walk. Because that takes time. Whereas just like dropping down and doing 10 squats. I've been doing it on the hour, just for fun also to test and I'm getting lower average blood sugar scores too. So having so much fun with the, this new Nutrisense CGM. If

Melanie Avalon:
If listeners would like their own Nutrisense CGM, they can go to Nutrisense.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code ifpodcast and that will get them $50 off a continuous glucose monitor. And if they'd like to try element for free, they can go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast and try it for free. See all the codes, all the abundance. Have you tried the new sparkling element? No, I don't think they

Vanessa Spina:
can ship to Europe yet. I don't think that actually will happen anytime soon. So next time I'm in the US, I'm definitely going to make a beeline to either get some or have some shipped to our place because I can't wait to try it. Have you tried them?

Melanie Avalon:
I haven't tried it, they sent it, so they sent the original box and then they just sent a whole new shipment and it's massive. It's crazy how heavy that stuff is.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, you have to let us know when you try it.

Melanie Avalon:
I will. And speaking of going back to the glutes thing, a big change I personally implemented, I don't know when I started doing this, but I feel like it really makes a difference. And it's something you actually mentioned when you first talked about the glute study, you talked about the importance of like being consciously involved in it. I started a habit where because I used to like when I would pick up something I would bend over at the waist, you know, and like, I would just like lean down and pick up things. Now I typically always like squat to get down. So then you just are like throwing in squats without even thinking about it.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, yes, I do the same thing like when I'm picking up Lucas toys.

Melanie Avalon:
like squat to get down and then you can like really like consciously squat up like you know like consciously like push yourself back up again from your legs without using your arms basically

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. And I think that's something I also learned a little bit in yoga is just being able to stand up from a sitting position without using my arms. And I think that that's a really good, I think that it's also a longevity test or something is like, if you are sitting, I think Dr. Peter talks about if you're sitting on the ground, how quickly can you get up? And like, how easily can you get up from, from being on the floor? Yeah, he does talk about that. I think it is a name, but I can't think of it right now.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So little hacks for listeners for their blood sugar and their health and their longevity and all the things. Just quick comment on the marshmallows. I'm really fascinated by – my one and only time I think I attempted making marshmallows was also a fail. I just remember they didn't – like you said, they didn't feel like marshmallows. Like they kind of turned into just – I don't remember, but it was like sludge or something. But I'm always really fascinated by food things that require both – where there's a big emphasis on time and – or like it'll often be like time and temperature. Like you have to move it from here to here at this time, at this temperature. Like it's basically like marshmallows, cheese, candy. It's like a science. I went down the rabbit hole of the cheese making world. It's crazy. Have you looked at cheese making recipes? Like how to make cheddar?

Vanessa Spina:
I have never attempted it. I have done candy though. I had a candy thermometer. We have one in Denver, and I made peanut brittle, but I made a keto version of it, and it's like macadamia nut brittle. It's one of my favorite holiday recipes, but I had to do that with the marshmallows. You have to get the syrup to a certain temperature, and yeah, it's involved. But it's simple. It's one of those recipes that's so simple. It's like four ingredients, but there's something about it that the recipe, when you read the blog, you're like, this looks so easy. It's not.

Melanie Avalon:
It's kind of like, I feel like I was ahead of the time with my cottage cheese obsession. Like I went through a cottage cheese making obsession and then literally like the next year, do you remember like there was that time period where everybody was making cottage cheese? Mm -mm. Okay, maybe not. And maybe I missed that one. Well, it happened and I was there before it happened. I'm thinking I should repurpose my cottage cheese making video now. It would probably do better.

Vanessa Spina:
I think a lot of people in Europe make more stuff like that at home, I've noticed. But in the US, you're probably the only one who doesn't, unless you have a homestead. Maybe... Wait, you make out of shoes? No, but I see it like people in Italy are just making their mozzarella and they're doing all this kind of stuff at home. But maybe in the US, it's more like homesteaders who are doing stuff like that.

Melanie Avalon:
and tick -tockers when it becomes a trend.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, but like most people probably don't have time because it's like you could just buy it at the store very easily, I guess.

Melanie Avalon:
I made my cottage cheese because I wanted to make fat -free cottage cheese without additives. And it actually worked. All the recipes were saying, don't use fat -free milk, it's not going to work. I was like, I think it's going to work. It worked enough for me. It probably, I mean, it wasn't like restaurant quality, nobody would have, or even grocery store quality, but it worked for me. Point being though, I did that and it was like magical. I was like, wow. You literally watch it transform in front of your eyes and cottage cheese is mind -blowing. And then I was like, I want to make other cheeses. And that's when I went down the rabbit hole of looking at the recipes and I was like, oh, we're not going to do this. Like the mozzarella recipe, it's like, you know, when it's exactly this temperature, then keep it for this minutes and then stir it and then like let it sit and then think about it and then watch it and then this temperature and then that temperature and then move it. And then like, I cannot, it's like potions glass. It's like Harry Potter. So I don't know how they figured that stuff out originally. Okay. Tangents. So shall we end the show with a question? Yes, let's do it. Okay. I'll read this. So we have a question from Wendy. This was on Facebook and it was to a prompt where I asked people, did they have questions about intermittent fasting? She said, does it work? I tried it and never lost anything. Maybe it doesn't work for everybody. And then somebody asked her and they said, what did you try? And she said, quote, everything. Karen commented on that and said, I've only done totally clean fasting. I am post menopause, but stuck with it. I read Jen Stevens book and listened to her podcast, interviewing people fasting while I was getting started. I just stuck with it, hoping it was cleaning up my insights before I would see benefits on the outside. I truly believe it did. My benefits over three to five years have been better digestion, weight loss, not huge amounts, but decent eyesight has improved. Yay. Skin cleared and just feel better overall. I started 16 eight, then moved to 18 six some days and I'm back to 16 eight. Keep at it. So I noticed like a very, well, first of all, love the feedback, Karen. I'm so excited for you and all the things that you've experienced for Wendy's question. So this is more just like a general question. I guess there's a few questions here. One is like, because she said it maybe it doesn't work for everybody. Vanessa, do you think there are some people that fasting just doesn't work for? And also, you know, what about people who feel like they're just trying everything? Like how can they find what does work for them?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I just did an episode that came out yesterday on my podcast, which is May 20th and it was with a hormone doctor, Dr. Amy, and it's specifically about that. Like basically when people have tried everything that it could actually be a hormone issue, which is what she found herself. She was a physique competitor and she was about to step on stage for one of her competitions and she gained 25 pounds and she was doing prep. So she was basically doing cardio twice a day and eating like steamed fish and broccoli, and she was, she gained 25 pounds and she went to see seven doctors and every single one of them told her that she was fine and she should eat less and move more. And then she finally saw a functional doctor who tested her and found that she had Hashimoto's. She had basically thyroid disease and she then changed her whole career path and became a functional medicine practitioner herself so that she could help women who have this issue. So sometimes it's, it's not, you know, like if you're, I think if you're trying everything and nothing is working, that may be the time when you would want to go see someone, get labs done, see someone who's perhaps a functional practitioner who can look at hormones and give you a lot of undivided time. She said her, the doctor that eventually became her mentor spent 90 minutes with her going over everything, you know, and trying to, and he was able to figure out what was going on with her. And, you know, you don't know if it could be an underlying physiological thing. If you have really tried every diet, every approach, and you're not getting results, there could be something going on hormoneally that you don't know about that, you know, you maybe just need some support with, right? So I think that's, could be a situation where you want to get some testing done potentially, you know, if you're feeling frustrated and that nothing is working with intermittent fasting. I do think that my opinion on it in general is that it is a stressor to fast during the day and for some people, it makes them feel great because it has a hormetic effect. So that little bit of stress produces like great energy, focus, you know, all the things that people talk about when they love intermittent fasting. But for other people who already have sort of their cup full of stress, that extra stress could be too much and not the right thing. So I do think there are situations when, you know, it's not the right fit for that person, or maybe that person is more sensitive to stressors either at that time or just in general overall. What do you think?

Melanie Avalon:
That was an incredible answer. Perfect timing with your interview about that. I historically felt like my body always really reacted a certain way once I really found the intermittent fasting pattern that worked for me. And then there was a time and point where I was on a certain medication and it literally, like I didn't change anything and the effects from it were so apparent and obvious. Like I feel like it really made me realize, oh, like certain medications, which would create a certain hormonal state presumably can really be a, you know, they can have a major effect where you can feel like you're doing everything and it's not working. And that was a medication, again, not, not hormones per se, but I think it's probably the hormonal effects of the medications. I love that you went there with the, you know, there could be something going on that you just are up against hormonal in your body that is not going to be fixed overnight with what it seems like you're actually doing. As far as I would want to know more from Wendy about what she actually is trying. I would especially like to know, I don't know if Wendy is this type of person, but I do think there, I think some people, especially the people who say like, I've tried everything. I have one friend who's like, really acts like this, where they don't give any one thing enough time before moving on to the next thing, or they don't commit to it enough. I think some people always just, they try something for a little bit doesn't work. So they try something else. It doesn't work. They try something else. It doesn't work without ever a sort of isolating a certain variable that they're testing and or be, like I said, not giving something enough time. So make sure you're giving whatever you're trying enough time. And I also will look at ephemeral fasting in particular does not working for you and you are, you know, giving it time and you are trying things that you think would work. There is a lot of magic in looking at the food choices as well. I think some people think they can just do intermittent fasting without necessarily changing what they eat, which is one of the magics of intermittent fasting is that it does often work for people regardless of their dietary choices. But there's a lot of magic that can happen and potential that can happen if you also look at the dietary choices. And there's so many really simple things you can try, especially paired with an intermittent fasting thing, especially if you haven't made dietary choices before. So it could be as simple as just switching to only whole foods like that can have a massive effect if you're eating processed foods, if you've never worked on changed macros up before. So trying a low carb approach or even trying a low fat approach, which I say hesitantly because I don't want to create like a low fat zeitgeist here. But by that, I just mean a more protein centric, not adding a ton of fat, you know, to your meals. I'm focusing on protein, you know, that's another really huge one. So basically looking at what you eat within the context of intermittent fasting can I think have a big effect for a lot of people. And then like you said, with the, you know, the stress and where people are in their life and like end point in time, I do think okay, so I do think intermittent fasting can work for most people. I do think it probably works better and easier for certain people than others. Like some people just seem to be much more like their body is much more, I guess, open to it and adapted to it and does well with it. Whereas other people, it just doesn't quite fit them as much, even though I think it probably still would work for most people. But for example, like I think it works really well for people like, like me and you Vanessa, because you mentioned earlier in the show how you are a an abstainer, not a moderator. So like, we like, you know, we like food and we like eating when we're eating. And we don't like having just like, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, so you can correct me if I'm wrong. But at least for me, I don't like, it's like miserable to me to do like have like just like a little bit and then like stop like that's just so miserable to me. So the idea of like small little meals throughout the day, just not that just doesn't, it makes me feel so hungry, so unsatisfied. So something like fasting where I'm having all my meals in a shortened time period is glorious for me because I can eat all I want. And then when I'm not eating, I'm not eating and it's just fantastic. Some people do love the more moderationist approach and eating smaller meals. And for them, you know, they might benefit actually from a longer eating window where they eat smaller meals throughout that longer window. So I think really paying attention to, you know, what you like and who you are, I wouldn't want to create like this blanket statement of it just doesn't work for some people because while I'm sure there are some people it doesn't work for. my personal opinion, I think that's a very small percentage of people. I do think most people can find something that works for them. So I just want to dispel the idea that like, oh, like, I don't think it's like 50 -50 that like half the people it doesn't work for and half the people it does. I think most people it can really work for. So for Wendy, yeah, maybe some of that will help. So maybe Wendy can work with a practitioner to look at her hormonal levels, look at what else might be going on in her body, you know, making sure she's giving it enough time. And also looking at food choices within the eating window. Yeah, many other.

Vanessa Spina:
thoughts about that? I think you answered it really thoroughly and yeah I don't have anything else to add but I just want to say you know I relate and I know the feeling of frustration, of feeling like you're trying everything and nothing is working and you know I don't want you to give up hope hopefully you'll be able to you know find a solution and figure out you know what it is sometimes it takes the help of working with with someone you know potentially who can help guide you and figure on figuring out what the source of it is so let us know if you if you do end up working with maybe a functional practitioner or someone else and if you do find something that works for you.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, yes, please do. Awesome, okay, well, this was absolutely wonderful. So a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode 377 and they will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are iapodcast, I am Melanie Avalon and Vanessa is ketogenic girl. So I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun with you and congrats again on your Fox article and I'm looking forward to the next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much, you were so kind. I had so much fun as well, and I can't wait to talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay, talk to you then. Bye. Bye.


Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jun 30

Episode 376: Spirulina, Vegan Protein,  Vitamins, Trace Minerals, Toxin Chelation, Nutrient Density, GNP Certified, Mind Blown Podcast, Behind The Mic Wellness, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 376 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Be sure to try the new LMNT Sparkling — a bold, 16-ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

SEED: This episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you in part by Seed. Seed's DS-01 Daily Synbiotic is a 2-in-1 prebiotic and probiotic formulated to support gut health, skin health, and overall well-being. With clinically and scientifically studied strains, Seed's Daily Synbiotic promotes digestive health, boosts immune function, and enhances your body's nutrient absorption. Start your journey to a healthier you with Seed's innovative and effective synbiotic formula. Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

SEED: Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

Spirulina nutrients

Nutrient deficiency

The creation of Melanie's spirulina

GNP Certified

Tested for potency and purity

The flavor

The formulation

Silica

Spirulina release

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 376 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 376 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here today with a very, very special guest, a repeat guest, Scott Emmons. How many times have you been on this show? Do you know?

Scott Emmens:
Wow, welcome. Thanks, Melanie. Thank you for the warm welcome. I think I think I've been on this show. This might be my sixth time.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh wow, so you're basically like just another co -host of the show.

Scott Emmens:
Almost. Ten more shows and I'll maybe reach that status.

Melanie Avalon:
Honorary oh we could give you like an honorary you know how like colleges give like honorary degrees

Scott Emmens:
Yes, can I get an honorary ifpodcasting degree?

Melanie Avalon:
An honorary I have podcast co -host.

Scott Emmens:
Love it. Sign me up. How many episodes do I have to do? 15 total. Done. Okay. I love this podcast. I love the people. I love the podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
I do too. It's a fun place to be and it's changed so much over the years and yeah, I'm very grateful for it. And I'm really excited about today's conversation because I feel like this is a long time coming.

Scott Emmens:
Oh, it's a long time coming.

Melanie Avalon:
This is a long time coming, friends. I know you guys have been really eagerly awaiting and asking questions about when I was going to launch my spirulina supplement, also chlorella, we can touch on that briefly. And it's finally here, actually. So when this airs, obviously we're recording this in the past now for listeners, but so hopefully when this airs in theory, you should be able to buy my new AvalonX spirulina supplement and there should be an awesome launch special going on. So now is the time, we did it. And we just wanted to take a moment to A, tell you guys the crazy story leading up to it, why we decided to make this supplement and also just update, I think listeners a little bit in general about the supplement world and everything that we've been doing together and all the things to come. So how does that sound?

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, there's so much I think we have to cover about all the different things we've been doing behind the scenes and this product, I think, Melanie, it's almost a year in in production.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's been a long time. And what's really exciting, because I know, Scott, you listened to this show, right? Correct. Okay, so I think right now, like while you and I are recording, I think the episode that is playing this week with Vanessa and I, I think we talked a lot about spirulina because unbeknownst to me, Vanessa's low -key obsessed with it as well, like unrelated to me.

Scott Emmens:
Loking you obsessed with spirulina.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. And then so we went on just a tangent because, and we can go on this tangent ourselves as well as to like how overwhelmingly mind -blowing, amazing it sort of is. It's so cute. So she gives it to her son, like, so she was having to take a, you might've listened to this, but she's, she was having to take a lot of different vitamins and supplements related to her pregnancy. And her son, Luca, who is like a wee little child, there was like vitamins or pills being taken and her son Luca really wanted to take some. So she gives him spirulina at night and they call that his medicine. So he feels like he gets to take medicine too.

Scott Emmens:
He's part of the supplement crowd. He gets to take his own supplements. He's a big boy now. I love it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, yes. But what's really my willing friends. Okay, so true story. We can backtrack. I guess we could actually first say how I came to spirulina and what spirulina actually is. Is that a good idea?

Scott Emmens:
I think that's perfect.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, spirulina and chlorella, they're both blue -green algaes and they are overwhelmingly abundant in nutrients to a, honestly, to a shocking degree. My like moment story about that is when we were working on the label, I asked if we could put a more detailed breakdown of the nutrient facts on the label. And then, so I like pulled up the nutrients and I literally couldn't believe it. Like I was reading them and I was like, is this right? Like, does it really have this much of all of these different nutrients? And it does. So it's what's really, really amazing about it is that it is a straight up whole foods vegan form way to get all of these nutrients in their most bioactive, bioavailable form because you're not getting them synthetic, you're not getting them in a pill. It's just real whole food that just has this overwhelming array of nutrients, which I can go into. And I can tell about how I first found it, but when did you first come across them?

Scott Emmens:
I think I first heard about spirulina probably going on almost 10 years. It's probably been 2015 at the earliest, but definitely by 16 I was on the spirulina bandwagon. I had always known about chlorophyll and the benefits of certain greens, but spirulina came into my world. I want to say I was listening to a podcast, a biohacking podcast in 2016, and I remember ordering it right around that time. It was 2016, I think at the latest. So I want to say it's been like eight solid years I've been taking spirulina.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's crazy. I think for me, similar, I first came across it probably around like 20, actually, yeah, very similar, like 2014, 2015. I was first interested more in chlorella for its detox potential, for how it chelates toxins in the body. And then it got really confusing because there's the whole chlorella spirulina debate. And then there's all these concerns about purity. And so I kind of like flirted with it in the past. And then a couple of years ago, probably now I had Catherine Arnston on my biohacking podcast, she has a company called energy bits, they make a really wonderful chlorella and a spirulina and a blend. She is, this is like her thing, like she's so passionate about it. And having her on the show, I really helped me dive deep and learn everything there was to know. And I was like, this is so amazing. Like I want to make my own someday. And side note, I actually I recently got back from the biohacking conference in Dallas, Dave Asprey's conference, I highly recommend friends, but I will stop myself from going on too much of a tangent. But if you want to like learn about all the biohacking things and meet all the brands and see all the products and, you know, go to lots of in person real life talks with, you know, a lot of guests I've had on my show that the biohacking conference is the way to be I am definitely going next year. It's gonna be an Austin Scott, are you gonna come?

Scott Emmens:
I'm 100% going to be there. It is definitely, if you're a biohacking nerd, it's the place to be.

Melanie Avalon:
You have to come, Scott. I wanted you to come this year.

Scott Emmens:
I know this year was a tough year for me, but next year, 100%, I'm in. Are you going to dress up for the dance? I don't know about the dance, but...

Melanie Avalon:
but i'll be there okay this year it was a space cowboy dance would you have dressed up for that

Scott Emmens:
Oh yeah, space cowboy, come on, that's two of my favorite things, space and cowboys, I love that.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so it's like theme pending as to whether or not you will dress up.

Scott Emmens:
Correct. Right theme, I'm in.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, if it's not the right theme for me, I just make it the right theme.

Scott Emmens:
I could try, I could try.

Melanie Avalon:
you know, I like find the tangential outfit that embodies what I would like to wear.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, but that's you. Like you're, you're really good at that. Like you can sort of, you know, ad lib your way into creating all kinds of unique things. I think I'm going to need a pretty firm, good theme to really get me get my juices going.

Melanie Avalon:
I'll help you out.

Scott Emmens:
All right. Deal. Okay.

Melanie Avalon:
So oh, that was a supplement. Okay, wait, sorry not to go on like on a tangent But right before the the space cowboy a cowgirl dance when you were like walking in they gave us all a supplement Do you want to guess what it was?

Scott Emmens:
Walking into this space cowboy dance?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so like you're okay, so let me give you like the setup like you're walking into the dance and they like hand you this packet and they're like, we're all going to take this together at this time. And I can give you a hint.

Scott Emmens:
I'm going to guess element.

Melanie Avalon:
No.

Scott Emmens:
All right, so then, what could it be?

Melanie Avalon:
can give you a hint.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, give me a small hint though

Melanie Avalon:
After we all took it, not only could we maybe tell like energy -wise, you could tell looking at people that they took it.

Scott Emmens:
Could it have been an edible of some kind of CBD?

Melanie Avalon:
No, you could physically tell.

Scott Emmens:
Ah, methylene blue to pep you up. Yes. Yeah, blue tongues.

Melanie Avalon:
Blue tongues. And what's weird is it was like you swallowed it and still blue tongues, you know, like it wasn't like we took a liquid like we swallowed a pill and yet blue tongues all around.

Scott Emmens:
So I wouldn't have expected the blue tongue with swallowing it, but it I mean, it's powerful. I I'd take like a drop from time to time and put it you know, just squirt like a drop in my mouth mixed with water and my peel be green or bluish green like two hours later.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh yeah, I forgot, I totally forgot I took it and then when I went to the ration later, I was like, whoa.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, I mean, it comes out.

Melanie Avalon:
It comes out like glue.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, it's like a bluish green, like it looks like pool water.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, uh -huh.

Scott Emmens:
It does give you a lot of energy though, doesn't it?

Melanie Avalon:
I was like, I actually want to start integrating this into my routine. And what's ironic is you and I might've talked about this before. I was taking that like way back in the day, like when it was not a thing, like you had to get the fish, the fish tank stuff.

Scott Emmens:
I buy the pharmaceutical laboratory stuff, so it's supposed to be lab only, but I take it anyway.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I kind of want to, wait, maybe we should make one.

Scott Emmens:
Technically, methylene blue is not a supplement. Yeah, it's one of those fringe supplements. Although that's why if you go on Amazon, it's all lab results for cell culture dying, but they don't sell it to actually take. The only place you can get it is individual websites, and I don't know how long they're going to be around.

Melanie Avalon:
Gotcha. Okay. Well, boom, boom, guess not.

Scott Emmens:
There was a company that was making those truckies, remember that? And they had to stop advertising on the podcast because the FDA was cracking down on them. Yeah, but I'm a big fan, big fan. I mean, I don't know why Methylene Blue is so... why they're so opposed to Methylene Blue being on the market, but I think Methylene Blue was the first FDA approved drug. You know what it was originally used for? Not, I shouldn't say, not its only original use. So one of its original uses was for dyeing blue jeans, like the original 501 blue jeans that used Methylene Blue to dye it.

Melanie Avalon:
That is crazy. And I just asked chat GPT and it confirmed. Yes. The first drug approved by the FDA. That's crazy.

Scott Emmens:
Isn't that crazy? How about that? How about we hold on to that factoid for like 10 years to use it today?

Melanie Avalon:
I know, I know. Wow. Okay. Yep. Well, in any case, yeah, staining agent. So how do we get on the, oh, right. The biohacking conference.

Scott Emmens:
The biohecky conference, yes.

Melanie Avalon:
I hope my code still works. Hopefully it's live already, but the code BC, Melanie, that was the code last year to get you a discount. So maybe it's a discount now. I will circle back on that. Point being back to spirulina. Oh, that's why it came up because I met Catherine again in person at this year's conference. And she had her energy bets booth. And it was really great to connect with her and talk about all the awesome benefits of spirulina and chlorella and made me even more further pumped about hours. So circling back to the benefits, OK, friends, prepare yourself. So spirulina, for example, like I said, it's a blue -green algae. It's actually, granted, you're taking a small serving size. So it's not like you're going to have this as your protein intake, but it's very high in protein. So a serving size would be 30 tablets. We are making the tablets because when it's in powder form, it just gets everywhere. So for example, so 30 tablets protein -wise has 4 grams of protein. And that is a complete vegan protein, which is rare in the vegetable, vegan, non -animal world, non -carnival world. And then for example, so hours, 30 tablets, you get, by taking this, you get 100% of your vitamin K, 100%. And vitamin K is difficult to get.

Scott Emmens:
Not easy to get.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's like one of those nutrients that's super important and not in that many things and high amounts. You get, are you ready friends? 625% of your vitamin B12. This is huge, especially people on plant -based diets are often can be deficient in B12 because typically it's normally found in animal products. So with spirulina, you can just wave right past that. Not only get your full day's worth, but get 625% worth.

Scott Emmens:
That's really huge, Melanie, because there are so many vegan diets or vegan products that the whole foods that don't have vitamin B12, really, it's mostly meat products you have to get B12 from. To me, that's a huge advantage for the vegan population. If they're looking for a way to get solid protein and solid B12 consumption, it's perfect.

Melanie Avalon:
Honestly, like if you're vegan, this should be required, like you should just like have to have this. And then also in general, I'll circle back to that. So for the other B vitamins, so it has 27% of your B2 and then it has smaller amounts of the other ones, like 3% of your B1, 3% of your B6 and 6% of your B3, your niacin. This one is huge. Iron. And I think chlorella is actually higher in iron than spirulina, but for spirulina, iron 53% of your iron.

Scott Emmens:
That's a lot iron.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I know I personally, actually, I hadn't thought about this, but because I have a history of anemia, really bad anemia, really, really bad. I wonder if it correlates. I haven't had to do anything to address it in the past few years, and that's probably when I started regularly taking spirulina. I wonder if there's a correlation there, so that's awesome. Has 8% of your magnesium, friends, you know that we are big magnesium fans around here. It's got 86% of your chromium, and then it has like trace amounts of other things like 8% of your selenium, 2% of your zinc, 5% of your phosphorus, then what's super cool beyond that is not only does it have these typical nutrients that you might think of, it also has very unique phytonutrients and things you might not expect. For example, it actually has glutathione in it, which is very cool. Has chlorophyll, which we were talking about earlier, which is a side note, also if you struggle with anemia or iron deficiency, chlorophyll, I learned this when I interviewed Terri Cochran on the Biohacking Podcast, so we can put a link to that in the show notes, but she talks a lot about the role of chlorophyll for actually boosting iron levels, which is really, really interesting. And chlorophyll is great for detox, energy, skin, nice breath. I used to take it, man, forever ago, I used to take just straight chlorophyll as like a breath freshener. It also has, this one is super cool, it has superoxide dismutase in it, which is something you normally hear about not as like a supplement or a food. It's a compound in your body that really helps combat oxidative stress, and you can literally get that from spirulina. It has zeosanthan, which is a really potent antioxidant.

Scott Emmens:
Great for your eyes.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yes. Yes. Very true. Something else really great. It has DHA, which is a great essential fatty acid in the omega -3 category, and it has GLA, which is actually in the omega -6 category, but it has a lot of beneficial effects. It doesn't have the typical inflammatory omega -6 effects that we think of. It also has trace minerals that you might have heard of like molybdenum, boron, it has some calcium. I'm going to stop now because this just sounds like a really long list, but it's just kind of overwhelming.

Scott Emmens:
One other thing I just want to touch on, Melanie, although it's very low in carbohydrates, the carbohydrates that it does contain can include glycerol, sorbitol, mannitol, and myonositol. And as you know, I'm sort of obsessed with osmolites. And glycerol, sorbitol, and myonositol all act as osmolites, which are really hydrating for your cells. They help your cells create the proper hydration intercellularly. So, this is a great way to keep your hydration up as well because of those unique carbohydrates that are called osmolites, which work to pull in electrolytes into the cell and fluid into the cell.

Melanie Avalon:
I do not know that. It's very cool. Like honestly, ever since I was exposed to it and have learned more and more, we talk so often about nutrient deficiencies today. And we know that our soils are really depleted. And so the food we're actually eating from the soils with produce and then conventional agriculture, all of the issues there, we're just not getting the nutrients that we used to get historically. And nutrients are just so, so key for so many metabolic processes in our body. And even people trying to lose weight and such, a lot of that is often due to just not getting the nutrition that your body needs. For example, I found it really interesting. I was reading a study recently in whose book was it? I'm prepping right now for two interviews. I'm prepping for Casey Means, who is the founder of Levels that makes the CGM and then Dr. Michael Greger, who is, you're familiar with Dr. Greger, right Scott?

Scott Emmens:
I know the name, I don't know, I can't place the specialty.

Melanie Avalon:
He's like the vegan of vegans of vegans. He wrote how not to die, how not to age, how not to die.

Scott Emmens:
Yep, I know you're talking about the vegan.

Melanie Avalon:
In any case, in one of those books, I'm trying to remember which one it was, they were talking about a study where basically people were put on either, basically they could eat a whole foods diet or a processed diet and it was pretty controlled. What was so interesting, I think it was Kevin Hall, it was Dr. Casey Means' book. I think it was a four -week study. They did two weeks in one arm, two weeks in the other arm. The first two weeks was basically processed foods and then the second two weeks was whole foods. They found that when people ate the processed food diet, they ate way more calories and they were way hungrier the whole time and they were gaining weight. Then they flip it, they eat whole foods, they ate way less calories, yet they were much fuller and they lost weight. The reason I'm talking about this, I just think it's so, so important, is that hunger, satiety, cravings, they're not about not having ample energy in general. They can be, but in general, especially in our processed food environment today, they're not about you actually need more food. They're often about you're not getting the nutrients that you need. Adding something like spirulina to your meals or you could put in smoothies, you could swallow it whole if you want. Oh, we can circle back to the taste of ours. That is such a way to really quickly and easily get those nutrients that your body is craving. That can be so, so important and so key for combating cravings, hunger, and supporting weight loss, which I think is amazing.

Scott Emmens:
Absolutely. I mean, satiety is so closely linked, I think, to the actual amount of nutrients your body is taking in, whether that's macro or micronutrients. I mean, you know, you can tell if you sit down and eat a bunch of sweet potatoes, try to eat three sweet potatoes plus two bowls of broccoli, you're gonna have a hard time getting three sweet potatoes and two bowls of broccoli down. So you're gonna be very satiated, but you're getting a ton of nutrients and a ton of macro and micronutrients in there, which really, you know, crushes that satiety. And I think spirulina has the ability to do the same thing with a very low caloric intake, you're getting so much nutrition and so many nutrients, micro and macro.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so so true and you know because people especially with intermittent fasting sometimes if they're not adapting or they're struggling with cravings or they feel like they're white knuckling it there I mean there are a lot of different approaches that you can take to really help that you know we love like clean fasting and you know not having artificially flavored sweeteners during the fast and just having you know water and black coffee but really addressing what you're eating in your eating window I think is so so huge for how you ultimately are going to feel while you fast and so making sure that it's nutrient rich with something like spirulina is just a really incredible pathway that the people can go oh yeah speaking of the taste so I guess we could go through the process of Scott of developing our spirulina

Scott Emmens:
Wow, it was a very lengthy process, including the sourcing, where we were going to source it from. That took some doing because we wanted to have all of that with a C of A, we wanted to have that FDA approved, and then we wanted to do our own testing on that product to ensure that it met all of the marks of the COA and better, and to ensure that all of the heavy metals and contaminants were below all the thresholds significantly. So I think just sourcing it, I think, took several months.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, and I just want to say props to you. I'm just so grateful for everything that you do with, you know, looking for sources and betting and it's really incredible. I'm really, really grateful. And, and so when we actually, so we finally found a source that we love and friends, I'm so excited because I, I was doing a lot of research on the company that makes our spirulina. So it's in beautiful pristine waters of Hawaii. I'm blown away by their sustainability practices. It's incredible. They do a lot with their water usage, their electricity, like everything they do is just really, really sustainable for the planet. And then they have incredible practices in place to grow this really healthy, nutritious spirulina free of pesticides, toxins, things like that. I know a lot of people look, for example, for the USDA organic certification, which I have learned a lot about that certification. And I will say in general, I think it's great because it's, you know, it lets people at the grocery store find things where there is at least a, they know that certain things are being followed when it comes to toxins and, you know, all the problems with conventional food and produce and supplements and things like that. All of that said, there's a few different caveats. One is that, well, A, being organic doesn't mandate that something is actually sustainable or regenerative for the planet. And B, companies can be, and this goes with all food, companies can be doing practices that would meet criteria for organic standards and beyond that, but they just don't actually have the certification. So that's why for me personally, when looking at food choices, when making supplements, for me, it's really important to find the source and really look into what is that company actually doing, whether or not they have an organic certification. So, for example, our spirulina does not have a USDA organic certification. And I feel completely fine about it because of all the testing that we've done and research.

Scott Emmens:
Well, Melanie, I think it's important that we discuss the process of GMP certification and the process MD logic goes through with our co -brands and in particular, all the products that we've made with Avalonix and Spearline is no exception. You know, as you recall with Burberry, we went through extensive testing from five different suppliers of raw ingredient and Burberry until we found the one that met all of our specifications. And I think that's maybe even an overlooked step. But all of the steps in the MD logic, you know, quality assurance process are really, really important. We are a GMP certified facility, US manufactured only. And we take that very seriously. So the first step that we do is we identify an active ingredient or supplier of that active ingredient, in this case, Spearline. And then we make certain that they are an FDA certified active ingredient supplier that also provides a certificate of authenticity or a COA. Now this includes detailed information about the composition, concentration of the ingredients, as well as ensuring that it's free of heavy metals, bacteria, and other contaminants. So once we've got the COA FDA approved facility or multiple, we then test that ingredient to make sure that the C of A meets the specifications that we come up with in the laboratory analysis. Now that's not always done. So the very first thing that we do is test the raw ingredient from these manufacturers. And we do a blind test in batches. In other words, we don't say tell them, hey, we're going to test your product and send us a sample. We just do a blind batch test. So it's, you know, a real life scenario. Basically, the ingredient that we're getting is the ingredient that we're testing. These initial tests take place on the ingredient level, meaning we're not just testing the finished product. We're actually testing every ingredient that's going to be in that formula and every ingredient that walks the door. Before we even let it into the facility, we test the product in quarantine to prevent any cross -contamination. We've tested for identity, which confirms that the ingredient that they say it is is in fact the actual ingredient. And that's typically performed through some kind of chromatography or spectrometry test in a lab. So these are lab certified tests. Then we test for the purity. So we want to make sure that this product is as pure as possible, meaning heavy metals, microbial content, other toxins, molds, and sometimes it will also test for pesticide residues. Then we're going to test the potency. This measures like the active ingredient and the strength and concentration, ensuring that each batch and each batch of that ingredient we get has the correct potency, meaning it has all of the nutrients and the concentration that it's supposed to have for that particular ingredient, in this case, again, spirulina. And then finally, what is the composition of that? So we want to make sure that the proportions of all the ingredients are aligned. So in this case, really, it's just spirulina, along with a tiny bit of silica. but really it's 99 .9% spirulina. So the composition testing, let's say for a more complex product that has seven or eight ingredients in it, you're gonna test to make sure that all of the ratios and all of the products that were put into that formula are in fact what we say is in it. So that's really the last step. Then there is the stability testing, which makes sure that the product is going to remain stable in various temperatures and environmental settings for at least two years. So once the stability test is done, that's the very, very final test, but all of these tests, the identity, purity, potency, and strength of the product are all tested at the ingredient level. Then we do additional tests for composite or composition and stability with the final product. We also repeat all of the initial tests again on the final product. So that's identity, purity, and potency are all repeated on the final product to make sure that during manufacturing, nothing went wrong and that it's as pure as it was when we first got the ingredient. So it's really a dual laboratory test. So that is in essence, what GMP manufacturing testing looks like. There are also several other things if you're a GMP facility that you're going to be tasked with and that's a quality management system, which has a robust process to make sure that all of the procedures are being followed. You have personal training and hygiene requirements that are audited by the FDA. And in fact, it is the FDA that monitors and certifies GMP facilities. You have facility equipment validation, meaning the equipment has to be validated to make sure that it measures things properly, that they're cleaned properly, they're installed properly, and they're performing properly. You've got raw material audits, which is what we just discussed, all those different testing for identity, purity, potency, and composition. And then you have production and process control testing, as well as QC and some other documents. So there is, if you are a GMP facility, you are under FDA guidance and FDA regulation. As long as you're following those GMP procedures, you're going to get a decent quality product. But again, we kind of go that step above to make sure that we only deal with USFDA certified facilities for active ingredient. We only take companies that provide a COA. We only take those COAs that meet our specifications, and then we test all of those parameters to make sure that the C of A specifications we come up with in the laboratory are either at or better than what the certificate authenticity suggests that it has. So the quality of the spirulina is undoubtedly fantastic. And I really love the company we've gone with. It is a Hawaiian -based, so it's a US -based, Hawaii -based spirulina. So this product from beginning to end is a USA -made, USA -grown product. And I feel really good about the way the company has sustainable practices for spirulina. They've been in business for close to 40 years. They are one of the pioneers in spirulina, and they really have a passion to help educate the community and the world about what spirulina can do and the power and benefit of it. And they're continually giving back to the community of spirulina and sort of the health and wellness community at large. So love the company, love the spirulina, and it passed with flying colors through our very rigorous GMP certification for purity, potency, and identity. I hope that helps the listeners.

Melanie Avalon:
I always wait with bated breath when we're third -party testing it, because I'm like, what if it's new? Especially with this one we've been taking so long. We finally found it, but yes, it got a clean pass. Clean bill of health. Yeah. And I'm just going to say, I think it tastes... I really like the way it tastes, because I know some people don't like the taste of spirulina and or chlorella. This one is... And I've tried a lot of different spirulinas in my life. This is honestly the best tasting spirulina that I have tried, hands down. I love it.

Scott Emmens:
Agreed.

Melanie Avalon:
my sister agreed to. We sat there, we were like trying different ones. Speaking of, another reason that it took so long, friends, is because we went through a lot of iterations trying to get the tablet structure down. And that's because I've seen brands on the market that claim to be one ingredient only. And you guys know me, I'm all about, I love single ingredients and looking at the fillers and I'm just a little bit neurotic about that. And Scott, I feel so bad for you and Oscar and everybody. The team. Because basically, they kept sending me samples of spirulina made with different fillers and even one made without any fillers. And I was so neurotic, I was like, we have to have no fillers because it's possible because I see it out there. And you guys kept telling me it's not possible. You kept saying it's literally not possible. We can't make it in this travelable tablet that won't be shutting everywhere if there's not something in there. And I was like, it is possible because I have it from other brands. And we had a bet going. You guys were like, we're going to test these other brands and see what's actually happening. And you guys were right. So long story short, if a supplement or is it supplements and food products? Basically, if an ingredient in the product is below a certain threshold, like so minimal, you don't actually have to have it on the label. So that's what's happening often.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah. We're not making any claim that it's always happening, but more times than not, it has to be below a certain threshold and then it qualifies as a single ingredient.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So that explains the mystery of why I thought it was possible to have a single ingredient spirulina, yet you guys were telling me it wasn't really possible. So once I accepted reality that it had to have another ingredient, it was actually really good timing because around this time, because you guys were proposing that we put in like a teeny tiny bit of silica into it. And around this time, I actually was prepping to do an interview all on, well, not completely on silica, but it was with a company called All Queen Springs. Oh, don't even get me started on that because Scott, I'm obsessed with their water. I'm so obsessed. It's like the most amazing water ever.

Scott Emmens:
more than the deuterium depleted water?

Melanie Avalon:
Here's the thing about it. I was drinking deuterium depleted water. Theirs is naturally deuterium depleted. The water I was drinking before was distilled to be deuterium depleted, so super low deuterium, which is awesome, which is super amazing. It's great. It's very expensive. Their water is naturally low in deuterium, so it's way lower than most water people would be drinking. It comes from this Aquine Springs. I forgot where it is. It's in the US. It's straight from the underground. It never touches anything else. They immediately bottle it and you buy it, and it's really, really high in silica, as well as other nutrients. My sister and I, the other day, we did a water taste test, a blind taste test. It's crazy how different this water tastes. I can guarantee you they could do a blind taste test and they would taste the difference, and it just makes you feel so good. Side note, I learned all about the benefits of silica, prepping for that. I went from being like, I don't want any silica to, oh my goodness, maybe I should actually be taking silica as a supplement.

Scott Emmens:
I mean, silica is miraculous and it's great for skin health, it's great for joint health, it's wonderful for hair, skin and nails. So silica is one of those things that if you're going to use a filler or you're going to use a product to help enhance another product, silica is one of the best things you can use.

Melanie Avalon:
So it's ironic because on the one hand I want to be like, take this spirulina, it has silica, all these benefits. At the same time, it's like such a tiny amount of silica that I don't know how many benefits you're actually getting from the actual silica, but at the very least it's completely benign. It's not one ingredient, but it's almost one ingredient. If anything, the other ingredient has health benefits to it. So yeah, once we landed on the formulation, and then we had the whole journey with the label.

Scott Emmens:
We had the label journey. That was fun. That was another couple of months. I think I think it came out fantastic though. I love it

Melanie Avalon:
So this is how supplement business calls pretty much go down with me. We had a meeting, I had like an idea in my head of what I wanted the label to be and I was looking at all these different pictures of like Hawaii and flowers and I found this picture of a mermaid that just embodied everything I wanted, like the vibe of it, the colors, like all the things. And so we were having a design meeting and I had it up and I was saying like, this is what I'm thinking, like this vibe. And like in my head, but prior to that, I was like, maybe we could actually have the mermaid on the cover, but then I was like, we can't have the mermaid on the cover, like who are you kidding? And so we're having the meeting with like the whole team and who was it? I think somebody, I mean, somebody made a joke about like, I think you did, I think you were like, maybe we could just use the mermaid. And I was like, ha ha, wait, but really can we? And Scott and I, Scott and I were the only ones really that were team mermaid. The entire rest of the team was not so much the team mermaid.

Scott Emmens:
I think they liked the mermaid. I think it just from a design aspect that created certain problems, especially trying to get all the information on the label and still keep the mermaid in in the label. So I agree. I think the mermaid embodies the the brand and the essence of purity. I think people love that. But I think it was just a difficulty level, which we pulled off. But I think that's what people were more afraid of.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I remember we were having the call and you were like, I was like, well, can we have the mermaid? And you were like, well, Starbucks has a mermaid or sorry. Don't they, is it a mermaid or it's like a goddess.

Scott Emmens:
It is a mermaid, technically, though. Is it a mermaid? I think so. Mermaid, or what's the other... What do they call... What else do they call mermaids? They call them... There's another name for mermaids that's more like...

Melanie Avalon:
Is there another name for a mermaid?

Scott Emmens:
The sirens siren is the other name i think it might be referred to that as the siren but i think it's a goddess of some kind on that on the starbucks label.

Melanie Avalon:
I will just never forget that moment because I remember I personally wanted to fight for the mermaid, and I think you were feeling the mermaid, but we weren't sure how much of each other we were into it or not. So you were trying to feel me out, and Scott kept bringing it back to the mermaid to kind of see if we could go that route, and the rest of the team was a little bit hesitant. But it ultimately manifested. Her name is Essence, speaking of. I'm excited. The packaging is like everything I could want. I'm really excited to see what people think, you know, which way they go.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, I think I mean, the design team, I think pulled it off. I think it came out spectacular. And I think they're really thrilled with it, too. So it's a win -win across the board. I did look up Starbucks real quick because I was so curious. It is the image of a two -tailed siren. And it's a mythical creature combined with it's a mermaid and a serpent combined. So Starbucks is not quite a mermaid, but close. A mermaid and a serpent? It says a two -tailed siren, two -tailed siren wearing a star star crown. So it's a two -tailed siren. That's all I got.

Melanie Avalon:
I should be that for Halloween someday. It'll be a good costume.

Scott Emmens:
Well, now that you've created a logo with a mermaid, you probably should be a mermaid.

Melanie Avalon:
I know, I was thinking, I was like, I could dress up as my mascot. Oh my goodness. So yes, so friends, you have to let me know what you think of the packaging. And I plan to, so because people have been asking, you know, are we going to make a chlorella as well or a blend, we do plan to do both of those.

Scott Emmens:
Correct. I think Chlorella is the next up, I believe.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I'm really excited about that. So friends, if you would like to get spirulina in your life, here's why you should stock up now. So it was really, really important to me to make it as affordable as possible. Some of the spirulina, chlorella and such on the market can be a little bit, there's a bit of a barrier there with pricing. So we did all that we could do to make it as affordable as possible. And during the launch, it's going to be 20% off, which is crazy and amazing, which the launch is going on right now. So basically right now stock up, we're thinking it's probably going to be just 20% off on the website, probably no code needed. If there is a code I will have and we'll be announcing it on my email list and with text updates. So make sure you are on those lists and getting those updates. So for the email list, it's avalonx.us/email list. For the text updates, you text avalonx, that's A -V -A -L -O -N -X, just one word, just type that I get so many different things, text it to that number and it only subscribes to you and sends you the code if it is that word avalonx. So text that to 877 -861 -8318. That's avalonx to 877 -861 -8318. Doing that in the email list. If there is a code, you'll get it. If not, it will just be on the website at avalonx .us. And I am so excited because I need this in my life currently right now. And I have been for a while now. I have spirulina every single night. I just have it with my food. It's like a non -negotiable. I'm really excited to be taking my own.

Scott Emmens:
Melanie i'm going to surprise you with some good news because it is being shipped to the warehouse for shipping tomorrow so it's ahead of schedule.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. So I get my sample soon.

Scott Emmens:
you're going to get your sample bags in very short order.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, I'm so excited, I am so excited. Okay, that's amazing.

Scott Emmens:
That's hot off the press. Live, shocking Melanie moment.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I love it. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Scott, because it's been a long time coming, and I know also I was really pressing to have an earlier launch, so thank you for everything that you've done.

Scott Emmens:
My pleasure. This is a product I'm super proud to have helped you make and proud to put this on the market. I cannot wait to see the feedback and start to try it myself.

Melanie Avalon:
I just think it's so interesting how, and I'm sounding like a broken record, so maybe I'll, you know, kind of end it with this, but we think we need to be taking like multivitamins and you know, all these people are always looking for these pills to fill in these nutritional gaps and there's something in your own backyard or in your own back ocean, literally creating all of that and you know, like I said, a whole foods form with way more other things to boot. And so yeah, I just, I'm really, really excited. I don't like to term like superfood because I think it's really misleading because I think there's just lots of really great foods and there's no one food that will, you know, save you or pave the pathway to longevity and the fountain of youth. If I had to pick a superfood, honestly, it probably would be spirulina and or chlorella.

Scott Emmens:
I'm looking at an article from the National Library of Medicine. It's an abstract titled, Wide Range of Applications of Spirulina from Earth to Space Missions. And they actually quote it as the world's first superfood. Oh. Yes. And then in this article, they also specifically point out that spirulina, I'm quoting now from the article, spirulina has been known since ancient times as a superfood. Aztecs collected it from the Alkaline Lake, Mexico as an integral part of their diet. So this has been being eaten by the Aztecs as part of their nutritional supplementation in their diet.

Melanie Avalon:
And didn't they use it on the space station? Am I making that up?

Scott Emmens:
I know for certain it's been used by NASA. I don't know specifically the space, the International Space Station, but for sure NASA used it. They were looking at it specifically as a source, not only for the short -term missions, but also a long -term source of nutrition for trips to Mars. So it could be that Elon Musk is actually testing how to grow it in space.

Melanie Avalon:
That's amazing what he is.

Scott Emmens:
I said it could be I don't know it is listed in here in this article they do talk about it being the perfect food for interstellar space travel because it can be grown in very small tanks for a small crew and to our discussion point has so many nutritional and medicinal values so it's a it's a perfect product to take into space because of its significant nutrition program.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's amazing. I'm reading about it here too now, like how they're talking about how it's just such a perfect food and supplement for astronauts because like you said, they get all this nutrition in a really small form and it's easy to grow in small, small controlled environments with minimal resources. So awesome, awesome. Which speaking of space, do you see where I'm going with this? I do. So this episode actually airs July 1st. So sometime around this time, Scott and I are still deciding. We are launching my third podcast, Scott's first podcast. Yeah.

Scott Emmens:
First, another one to come, yes.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, which we will circle back to Scott and I are launching a podcast together and friends. I'm just smiling right now because I'm so excited. So it's it's my first non health and wellness related podcast, although I'm sure some episodes will involve health and wellness, but we are just having the time of our lives recording the show. It's called the mind blown podcast and every single episode we talk about mind blowing stuff like mind blowing stuff.

Scott Emmens:
And our first episode, I think, is a two -parter if memory serves and it's a killer episode. The topic is the Mandela Effect, but we take a very deep dive into certain dates and times that I don't think you've heard before, even if you know what the Mandela Effect is, you're going to love that first episode. Super fun.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So teaser about that. So the first episode, like Scott said, we just go through basically what the Mandela effect is. And for people who are not familiar, there's a lot of things out there in the world that people remember swear up and down used to be different and apparently have changed now.

Scott Emmens:
Like example would be Chick -fil -A's, how is it spelled? Some people remember C -H -I -C, some people remember C -H -I -C -K.

Melanie Avalon:
So right now it's chick like CHICK. Some people remember like Scott said CHIC or a lot of people remember CHIC.

Scott Emmens:
And then the filet, some people remember it as F -L -F -I -L -E -T, and some people remember it as F -I -L -A. People remember it that way? I think so. Maybe I'm getting my Mandela effects cross -contaminated, but I thought that was the whole thing, that some people got the chick part wrong, some people got the filet part wrong, some people got both parts wrong. Or mixed up, I should say. They swear it was the one way, and it's been changed to a new way.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I'm not sure about the fillet part. I'm sure some people do. I think that the main ones are the CHIC or the CHIK. So that's one. Some of the other really big ones, Berenstein Bears. People remember it being spelled Berenstein, like S -T -E -I -N. And now it's stain.

Scott Emmens:
I would've sworn on my grave it was steam, not stain.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. And there's so many of these. One of the ones I recently saw that came to me was, I used to think that Rearview Mirror said objects in mirror may be closer than they appear, but it says objects in mirror are closer than they appear. That one really bothered me because I remember reading that sentence and being confused about what it meant.

Scott Emmens:
Right, because the may doesn't make sense. Well, it either is closer or isn't closer.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, like, what does that mean? It may be closer. So yeah, so listen to Episode One for just all the different ones and basically the history of when this was first discovered, which is around 2009, I think.

Scott Emmens:
Correct, yep, that's what we found out.

Melanie Avalon:
For part two, we talk about a crazy theory that we have. I don't think it's that crazy, actually. We had a mind blown moment where we had an epiphany about the dates surrounding a lot of these. So, oh, Fruit of the Loom.

Scott Emmens:
Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
There is if you remember cornucopia and the fruit of the land there is no cornucopia i want the first way i found the bendel effect was tinkerbell dotting the i so if you remember tinkerbell. And the disney logo dotting the i that didn't happen which is. Discontinued.

Scott Emmens:
I could have sworn I think of all the ones we covered her dotting the little eye with her with her wand I mean, I remember watching that on TV. I could have sworn I saw her do that little dot on the eye

Melanie Avalon:
I can see it right now.

Scott Emmens:
I'm visualizing it, too. That one blows my mind away, not to be pun not intended, but really is mind blowing.

Melanie Avalon:
After that, those episodes, we have so many other really fun topic episodes. So the mind blown podcast tune in. I'm really excited about it. And then Scott is also launching another podcast, Scott.

Scott Emmens:
Yes, I'm going to be launching Behind the Mic Wellness, which is a great podcast. I believe it's going to be a great podcast. It's about getting to know your favorite biohackers and health and wellness podcasters on a whole different level. So I interview people about what got them into podcasting, about their podcast itself, some of their favorite guests, hurdles they had to overcome to get their podcast on the air, what makes them tick. And it's a really interesting way to kind of break that fourth wall and kind of meet your podcast host on a whole different level. And it allows them to kind of present themselves in a whole different way, kind of different than you would hear them on their podcast. And it also gets exposure for them to all these different podcasts. If you're looking for a great new health and wellness podcast or a new biohacking podcast, come over and check out Behind the Mic Wellness. That's going to be launching around the same time, probably in mid to late July. And we're going to have a bunch of your favorite guests, I'm sure you get to hear a lot about what they're doing to make the podcast grow, what their passions are in life, and just get to know them on a whole different, more intimate level.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm really excited to listen to that one personally as a podcaster. I, I love hearing the stories of other podcasters. So it's a little bit selfish, but for why I like it, but I'm curious. Cause you, I know you've recorded quite a few episodes. Are you picking up on trends or is it like wild cards without, with how people answer things or what have you experienced?

Scott Emmens:
There's a lot of wild cards, but there is one trend that I don't think will be surprising. Almost all of the health and wellness podcasters got their passion into health and wellness and their podcast start by having their own health issue or something that happened to them in life or something that they discovered how they could change their life and all of a sudden they wanted to share it to the world and share it from the rooftops. That was the singular trend, I would say. People got started, what they decided to pursue, the different hurdles that they faced. Those are all pretty different, I'd say, widely different experiences, but the one core commonality is almost all of them have had some sort of interventional crisis or an aha moment about health and wellness.

Melanie Avalon:
Like, do you ask the same questions or different questions or...

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, I try to, so I have a format that we follow, which is sort of discussing kind of their early history into health and wellness, maybe a little bit about what got them into that particular topic, what got them started with the podcast, some of their greatest hurdles with the podcast, their favorite moments with the podcast. So you really get to understand like what drove them into that health and wellness space, whether it's biohacking or keto or carnivore, you kind of get to understand that, but you also kind of get the fun, unique stories about the bumps in the road to the podcast or maybe something they don't disclose on their own podcast because they're doing the interviewing and now as the interviewee, they get to talk more about themselves. So I get to find out like what are those little nuances about their podcast that they love or that they don't love or things that they have changed over time. So it's kind of a cool way to get to know your podcast on a really intimate level and get to know the host on a more intimate level.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that. Can I tell you what I would want to ask people who are podcasters, like as a podcaster?

Scott Emmens:
Yes, give me your top three questions because I'll start incorporating them.

Melanie Avalon:
I would, I mean, I have to think about it a little more, so I reserve the right to change my mind. But just like off the top of my head, I would want to know, I would want to know if they, because people ask me all the time if they should start a podcast. And they're always really, I think, surprised with how I answer it, which I'm like all about. I'm like, yeah, do it. Like, I'm in full support. And it's funny because I was listening to a Joe Rogan episode and he was talking about how he always, like, left and right is encouraging people to start podcasts. And he says he's probably responsible for like 50 podcasts starting. So I would want to know if somebody were to ask them, should they start a podcast? What would they tell them?

Scott Emmens:
That's a great question.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm really curious if everybody's like, like me where they're like, yeah, do it. Or if some people would be like, uh, think, think hard, long and hard before you, you know, take it on. I would want to know what is the most divergent or different thing from what people might expect as far as like what you, like the reality of podcasting compared to how it's interpreted. Let me, how do I clarify that? So basically like, what would people be kind of shocked to know about podcasting that's different than what you might present or see out there, like behind the scenes.

Scott Emmens:
Would you want that personalized would you want it to be maybe what is the most divergent thing about their personal life versus their on air podcast persona or is that too crossing line too much.

Melanie Avalon:
I like both of those. So I like that, those are like different questions. I like that one. I was thinking more the mechanics of podcasting.

Scott Emmens:
What surprised them most about actually doing the podcast versus the initial dream or thought about it? That's a great question.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, because I know what my answer, I think, would be.

Scott Emmens:
Don't answer because I'm going to ask you on the Mind blown podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Oh, you mean on the behind the mic?

Scott Emmens:
I'm sorry, behind the mic podcast, behind the mic wellness, specifically, yes.

Melanie Avalon:
And then I would also want to know probably what was their, it's like a two part or what, what was their best moment or like favorite moment they've had while podcasting and worst moment podcasting.

Scott Emmens:
That I did ask.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, there's so many things I would want to know.

Scott Emmens:
The favorite moment was oftentimes when they asked a great question to someone that they really admired. Those those were and then they gave that specific example.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's actually probably going to be my answer.

Scott Emmens:
Worst moments were having a guest that they loved, but the guest either didn't have the time for them or it just didn't go as they had hoped.

Melanie Avalon:
Have people said, have they ever had a moment where they, like where the guests asked them a question and they weren't like following?

Scott Emmens:
That didn't come up. There were some times where there might have been a point where the guests went off on a tangent and they couldn't rain the guests back in. And those were some fun conversations too about the specifics of how those went down.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I have a question. I would want to know what skills from podcasting have carried over into their real life.

Scott Emmens:
Ooh, that's a great question. I hadn't even thought of that.

Melanie Avalon:
I definitely know my answer for that one for sure.

Scott Emmens:
I'm writing that one down. So hold it for the show

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Oh man. I just, I love thinking of questions. I'll have to think, if I think of more, I will send them your way. Oh, oh, oh, maybe also I would want to know how has podcasting changed their social relations? Like are most of their friends podcasters or like are most of their friends now their guests? Because like, if I look at my life, the majority of my friends now are guests I've had on the show or fellow podcasters, which is kind of weird to think about.

Scott Emmens:
And that's kind of a unique small world. So it's interesting, once you get into that world, you start to know so many people in that world, it becomes kind of comfortable because you have so much in common and it's just a comfortable fun conversation.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, exactly. And it's really interesting, like how much you can... Something I love about podcasting is... Granted, people listening to podcasting might be doing other things and driving or multitasking, but podcasting itself, like the art of capturing a conversation, it's like the one time where you literally just live in the moment of that conversation, which is... We're so distracted in our world today. There's like so many things happening, but podcasting, you have to actually sit down and talk to another person and you can't really be... You can't be hardcore multitasking.

Scott Emmens:
I really like that because the people are so hectic today. Even phone calls are far and few between because people text so much. But when you sit down and do a podcast, you'll typically have a 15 to 20 minute pre -discussion for the podcast. Then you have a full discussion during the podcast and then potentially after the podcast. And like you said, during all of that, you're completely engaged with that person to get to know them, to really make sure you're engaged in the conversation so the listeners can follow. And so to your point, it's like a really engaging conversation on both sides. So it is very unique in that way and I think lends itself so great to making friendships and or acquaintances over the air because you're literally engaged and engrossed in that person's dialogue for an hour and a half or two hours.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. And you're talking about their work, like something that's really, you know, important to them. So you're getting to know like what drives that person and their passion. And so yeah, I think that's another reason I think people really connect.

Scott Emmens:
And I love the long format of podcasts because it really allows for complete contextual conversation instead of the typical tiktok sound bites that we're getting or the instagram sound bite you get the complete context and nuance of a robust discussion so i love that long long time term you know frame up of the podcast you don't really get that in too many media so to me i love it in fact a lot of podcast if i see there under thirty minutes i'm probably not gonna listen to it because i enjoy. The hour hour and a half two hour podcast where you really get to get to know the guest and you know it's going to be a thorough discussion.

Melanie Avalon:
So true. You could ask people what has been their shortest and longest podcast as well. I've had some really long ones. Okay. So, so friends, definitely all the things to check out. So in the podcast world, the mind blown podcast, is it called just behind the mic or is it behind the mic podcast? What's the full title?

Scott Emmens:
Behind the Mic Wellness.

Melanie Avalon:
wellness. Okay, behind the mic wellness. Check out both of those. I can't wait for them both to be up and then to bring it all back to the beginning, spirulina. Yeah, I'm just friends. I'm so excited about this. Again, you can get the launch special 20% off, stock up now, avalonx.us. You don't want to miss that. And then stay tuned for all of the future supplements to come. And just again, I just want to express my gratitude to Scott, who's been such a key, key person behind. Because I know so many of you guys are, you know, really big fans of my Avalonx supplements. And I am as well because they're exactly what I could ever want them to be. And that's all because of Scott.

Scott Emmens:
I would love to take all the credit, but it's the entire MD Logic Health team. So I've got to give my team the props they deserve. Without them, I would be nothing. So it's truly a partnership and Melanie, I love working with you and partnering with you on these supplements because you take everything. So personally, you make sure everything is done to perfection. And there's nothing I love more than creating a wonderful, pure product with great partners. So thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, thank you, Scott. And I will, I guess next time we'll be podcasting together will be for the Mindblown podcast.

Scott Emmens:
They cannot wait. And thank you so much for having me again. I think I'm my sixth time here at the I have podcast, Melanie. Appreciate it.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. You're one step closer to your honorary co -host. Almost there. All right. Have a good night.

Scott Emmens:
You too. Take care, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon:
Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient -doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme imposed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!


Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jun 23

Episode 375: Blood Glucose Control, Post Prandial Glucose Excursions, Eating Timing, CGMs, Fun Recipes For Electrolytes, Collagen, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 375 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-fed beef, organic chicken, heritage pork, wild-caught seafood, nutrient-rich, raised sustainably the way nature intended, and shipped straight to your door! For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get chicken thighs, top sirloins, or salmon—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

MD LOGIC: Unlock the secret to a perfect night's sleep with Melatonin Max by MD Logic Health! This unique clean formula is tested for accurate potency and combines 3 mg of immediate-release melatonin with 1 1/2 mg of slow-release melatonin, Ensuring you fall asleep quickly and stay asleep all night without morning grogginess! Ideal for home or travel, Melatonin Max also helps combat jet lag and supports mitochondrial health with its potent antioxidant properties. Get 10% off at mdlogichealth.com with the code ifpodcast.

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get chicken thighs, top sirloins, or salmon—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

MD LOGIC: Unlock the secret to a perfect night's sleep with Melatonin Max by MD Logic Health! Get 10% off at mdlogichealth.com with the code IFPODCAST.

NUTRISENSE: Get $50 Off A CGM subscription At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any drink mix purchase!

Listener Q&A: What type(s) of intermittent fasting do you practice and why?

DANGER COFFEE: Get 10% Off At melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee With The Code MELANIEAVALON!

Study: Enhanced muscle activity during interrupted sitting improves glycemic control in overweight and obese men

Early Vs Late-Night Eating: Contradictions, Confusions, And Clarity

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 375 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.


Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode 375 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hello, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I'm great, how are you?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm good. I'm looking at when this airs. So when this airs, hopefully my spirulina will be coming out soon next month, which is exciting. I've just been waiting, you know, a long time for that. Listeners can get on the email list at AvalonX .us slash email list. And then also my third podcast should have launched the Mindblown podcast. I'm really excited because I listened yesterday to the first episode because we got it back from the editors and it's just so fun. It's so exciting to have like a podcast. I love health stuff, but to like have a podcast about like completely different topics. I remember you said you were thinking sometime at some point you might have a podcast as well about other things. Yes. I think about it all the time. Well, I definitely, definitely support that. So listeners can check that out. It's the Mindblown podcast. One last, this is just like a random fun thing I did. I went and saw Legally Blonde, the musical. Do you like that musical? Do you know it? No, I don't. Did you like Legally Blonde, the movie? The musical is so, it's really good. I wore pink, which was crazy because I always wear black, but I had flashbacks because I don't know if you might've seen this on Instagram, but it reminded me because remember how in that movie Elle Woods has like her entrance essay or her like her entrance video for Harvard. She submits this video to get into Harvard and it's like, you know, it's all about like blonde and she's like a swarthy girl and it's like over the top and then she gets into Harvard. My entrance, when I submitted for the USC film school, which at the time they told us it had a lower acceptance rate than Harvard. I'm not sure if that's accurate or not. I'm only saying that to like clarify this story and how it relates to Legally Blonde. So in my admission essay, I literally made the first sentence. I said something about how like how important good hair days are to females and then I said I would give up all my good hair days for admission to the USC School of Cinematic Arts and it worked. I got in because I knew that they had a really low, they were heavily skewed towards males for that program. So I was like, I'm gonna play up my female -ness. I don't know if that would fly today, but.

Vanessa Spina:
You're like the Elle Woods of innocent fasting, I know.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. Oh, man. I do not miss the days of college admission essays. Do you remember those days? Mm -hmm. I do. Ooh, crazy. Do you still have dreams that you, like, are in college? Like, nightmares?

Vanessa Spina:
I did when I was going to university, I would have nightmares a lot because growing up, I went to so many different schools and it was always very stressful to have to leave all my established friend groups and then start over fresh and be the new kid. And sometimes that was a good thing, sometimes it wasn't. In my last year of high school, I kept having this repeated dream about going to university and being the new kid but I didn't realize everyone's a new kid so it's way easier when you're all new. And I made friends right away and I had an amazing time at university but yeah, I remember having so many nightmares about it.

Melanie Avalon:
Were you in a different like click or friend group at all the different times that you changed? I mean, I don't know it was new people, but like type of group of people.

Vanessa Spina:
sometimes. Yeah, it's just the culture was so different in each school too. But yeah, I mean, I, I had such a great time when I went to school. I am, especially university was amazing. Like high school was good and bad, but university was incredible. I had so much fun. Did you have a good experience?

Melanie Avalon:
I did I was actually reflecting on this yesterday with my family because we were watching do you remember that? I don't know if you remember this the Angela Johnson YouTube short it was like one of the first like YouTube videos that really went viral It's that manicure skit about getting a manicure at the nail salon. Okay, I'll just send it to you. It's like It's amazing. We were revisiting it and rewatching it but I remember I saw her live because at USC there's this like there's the quad which is The I don't know. It's where they it's a quad like a university quad Yeah, okay. Okay. I feel like all schools have like the quad. Okay. I just remember I was like a freshman my dorm actually like looked over the quad and I was like, do they think we're Like we must be constantly stimulated because every single day there was like something happening Like really big deal on that quad So like it'd be like things like that like bringing in famous people and having like shows one day I woke up and there was so this was in LA There was skiing on the quad. They brought in like a slope Yeah, like was and you could ski down it. I was like what is happening? So like I Remember like college was like this crazy experience of Like you said, it's all new people You get to just make all these decisions about you know Your classes and when your classes are and you're like And there's all this fun stuff to do and then like freshman year you like sign up for all the things You're like i'm gonna do all the things and then you don't end up doing all the things But yeah, like I signed up for fencing and ballroom dancing and none of that panned out but Oh, well So flashback years anything new in your world?

Vanessa Spina:
I've been feeling like a kid on Christmas morning every day because, as I told you, I started a new CGM, and that has been so much fun because I'm kind of doing it, I think, in a way that is maybe unique to how a lot of people use it, because I think a lot of people are using it to maybe cut certain carbs out of their life. And I'm doing the opposite. I'm using it to see which carbs I can tolerate well and add back in, and it's been really, really fun to use it. And when I did it before, I was carnivore, and I shared how my CGM was basically just a flat line. It was not interesting at all. I just kept checking it, and then I was like, it's got to be wrong, and then I would double check with a finger prick, and it was just boring to watch. But now that I'm in a whole different phase of my life, I'm doing optimal protein. I've been calling it lately hyperprotein. Hyperprotein, we were talking about different, needing a good name.

Melanie Avalon:
I was just saying that we were talking about how we needed a name for it, hyperprotein.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, because that really is the focus is the lean protein. And in my opinion, adding, you know, your mix of fuel, because protein is the building block macro, your mix of fuel macros, carbs or fat, it's all up to you. You know, at the end of the day, it's your energy macros. But I do think it's better to choose lower glycemic ones with high fiber, if you're going carb route, you know, and to choose healthier fats, obviously, but it's so much fun at this stage in my life to be testing all kinds of different things. And it's kind of summertime. So we've been doing all this fun stuff. So I've been able to test fun things like glasses of Prosecco, seeing what that does to me. And then I told you, I tried half a banana, which I haven't had in years. And then I made some homemade hummus. Like I'm testing all these things. And so far, everything that I thought was going to happen is not happening. Like the things that I was assuming were spiking my blood sugar all the time have not been. Oh, wow. Yeah, at all, which is crazy. It's just been so incredibly insightful. So I'm really excited to, you know, sort of dedicate this episode to to cgms, especially because I know you know so much about using them. I'm kind of a newbie. So you know, we can kind of go through it for other people who are newer to it. And maybe it'll answer some questions that people have about using it. But it feels I feel like a kid on Christmas every day, this is I keep telling Luca, like mommy has a new toy. And he loves taking my phone and scanning the sensor, you know, because it makes the phone vibrate. She's like, I want to do it. I want to do it. But it's it really feels like, like a fun toy. But it is so incredibly insightful. So that's the most exciting thing going on. I have been working on launching tone collagen, which should be out and around now or around this time. And we are going to be doing an exclusive launch discount on it. So I do want to mention that is something I've been working on and really, really excited about too. That's pretty much every

Melanie Avalon:
everything that's new in my life. Oh my goodness. Okay. So many things. Okay. So I want to clarify. I want to super, super clarify for listeners, because I'm going to ask you some questions about your CGM experience. So everybody is so individual. And so if Vanessa says that she, you know, certain things spiked her blood sugar, it's like an example of how you just don't know, like people, like people can react so differently to different foods. And that's why I think the CGM is so important because it actually shows you how you are reacting and like, and what works for your body. So I'm dying to know. So what were some things that you thought were spiking your blood sugar that weren't and vice versa?

Vanessa Spina:
So I just assumed that every day my high protein meals were raising my blood glucose at least 20 or 30 points. And they're not. They're just not like it's barely like I've been between this range of like low 60s, upper 70s, the highest I was going for most I've been on it for a week now. So it's not that much data. We can circle back in like three more weeks. I'll have like two months worth of data to talk about. This is just sort of the initial things that have been happening. So my blood glucose is still pretty flat, even though I'm not doing carnivore anymore. And I just assumed that carnivore was keeping it so flat. But I really think it's because my insulin sensitivity is so high as we were talking about on the last episode. So working hard to bring your insulin down can really make a difference. And I think that's what I'm seeing is it's well, first of all, my meals are high protein. And so they are very slowly broken down. And that explains a little bit of that like flat line response. But I just assumed that when I was having a huge high protein meal that it was at least going up and doing a small spike. Because everybody tells you things like whey protein, spikes your blood glucose, caffeine, which is another one I'll talk about, but all these things we assume spike our blood glucose. And we just believe it because other people tell us that or people that we respect tell us that. And like you said, we assume because it spiked their blood glucose that it'll do that for us too. Or because it spiked the blood glucose of a group of people in a study that it'll do that for us too. But my blood glucose has been so stable. I mean, it barely goes up after my meals. A big thing that I noted is that most of the days I've been wearing the CGM, I am pretty active. So I'm moving my body around most of the day. I'm averaging like somewhere between 10 to 12 ,000 steps in the day, which is not crazy, but it's not sitting around all day. I'm just a busy, active person. And most of those days I'm also doing maybe like five out of seven of those days. I'm doing a around 45 minute to an hour workout of resistance training. Not a hardcore. I'm not one of those people who's at a gym doing like these crazy squats and you know, benching like super heavy weights. I'm not my workouts are not like that, but you know, I'm active and I'm doing a weights workout, resistance training workout. And on those days, which is most of the time, it's amazing. The response to the meal that I usually have after my workout, it's, it barely moves. So I was shocked. I really thought that, you know, having a huge protein meal, having dessert for me, which is like my tone protein with some plain yogurt, I assumed that was doing another blood glucose spike. And then I have a shake with tone protein with berries, just kind of like a second meal in my eating window. And then I have protein puddings, usually a couple of them. And I've also been testing lately, these chalk, zero marshmallows, and I assumed that those were doing things, nothing, nothing was moving on those days, especially like I said, because I'm really active. So that was a huge insight is that I track my activity, I'm a very active person. And that just that combined with having a low insulin, it gives you incredible recovery. So all my meals are like 100% score in terms of recovery and all the different measurements that they do, which is just really cool to see a couple other things that were really interesting. I had a couple days where I wasn't as active. And I noticed, for example, because we went away for this weekend, the days that we were in the car, doing mostly driving, there was a more moderate minimal amount of activity on those days. And that's when I had more of a response to the meals. but still nothing crazy, nothing like 30, 40 point spike. Like most of my meals, I'd say 20 point spike at the height. But because again, they're high protein, if you eat high protein meals, you probably notice, I'm sure it's not the same for everyone, but for a lot of people, the protein is digested over four to five hours. So it just gives you this very steady blood sugar. I also was assuming that throughout the night, I was having big spikes, nothing. It's like, I just stay in this like 20 point range, low sixties up to 79 every day. So then when we were away this weekend, I got to test some fun things. I did test coffee, assumed that was spiking me, nope. It goes up by like five to 10 points. And I have a huge coffee in the morning. I make a latte like with unsweetened almond milk. And I know that that's not clean fasting, but right now it's what I'm doing and it's working fine for me. But I thought that that was spiking me for sure. And it isn't at all. So on the weekend, I got to test some, a little bit more unusual things. And I'm really curious as to your response on one of them. So I did have one crazy spike that I was like, oh my gosh, that must be a mistake because I've never seen one before. On Sunday morning, we were having brunch with our friends and the place we were at didn't have any like almond milk. They only had coconut milk. And so I assumed it was just the coconut milk that we have here, which is just plain coconut milk, no sugar added. So I had two coconut milk lattes and with my regular breakfast, which was an eggs bunny. And I had like a 60 point spike. Like it went from. Wow. Yeah, my blood sugar was like 60 something. And it went up to like 120. And then it came crashing back down. Surprisingly, it didn't go below 60. So you would think that it would have like a bad rebound effect and go below my starting level, but it just went back to where I was at. So at least that was okay. And the Nutrisense, I'm using the new Nutrisense CGM, of course, cause it's the best and their app. And it still gave me an okay score for that, but it wasn't great. And I realized that they were using this special like barista coconut milk, which was full of sugar. So for someone who never eats sugar, if you do suddenly have it, your body is going to react poorly to it. Because if I had been eating sugar on a regular basis or even eating high carb for a few days before that, it wouldn't have had such a high spike, but because my body never sees sugar, like it hasn't had sugar for years and years and years. It was like, whoa. It was like I did the oral glucose tolerance test or something. Like it was just a huge response. So I went and checked what they were serving after. And it was one of those, you know, cartons, the barista with like a, you know, usual amount of sugar, but very unusual for me. So that was why it spiked. And then I kept thinking throughout the day, what if it was the eggs Benedict? What if it was like the high fat, you know, because you hear that also that other side of the coin where fat can spike you. So the next day we went back to the same place and I had the same breakfast.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh wow, without the coffee, without the coconut.

Vanessa Spina:
Without the coconut milk, I just had an element, chocolate with some regular milk. Actually, I had a whole milk that's really popular here. So they did have whole milk and I had that and no spike at all. So that was also a cool insight because I also assumed that regular milk would spike my blood glucose, but it didn't at all. And everything else was the same, in terms of activity levels and what I was doing. So it was definitely the coconut milk. And it wasn't a mistake, which is, because you can see in the app, you can see your blood glucose going measurements every 10 minutes, right? Even if you don't scan it, it's recording it. So you can go back and see, it wasn't just like an erroneous measurement. It was, that's what it was. So, because it tracks all the way up to that like 120, which I hit and then back down. So that was really interesting. And then the last one is the one I wanted to get some of your insight on. So a few times in the past two weeks, we've had events. So this weekend we had, we were away with friends. So a few opportunities where I was drinking Prosecco. And I always just assumed that Prosecco was spiking my blood glucose when I was having it. And it not only didn't, but all three of the times, a couple of the times I had two or three glasses, it made it go low, like way lower, like at one point on Sunday. So we had had breakfast early in the morning. We'd been walking around pretty actively all day. I had a glass of Prosecco and my blood sugar went down to like 50 something. And it was the same thing every time I had Prosecco. And I was like, I don't think it's actually that sugary, but definitely has alcohol in it. So I'm sure you know a lot about that, or at least you have your own experience in it. But yeah, that's been my experience so far. And it's been so insightful. I like you think everyone in the world should wear a CGM for at least a month. Cause like even a couple of weeks, I feel like I'm going to be wearing one for at least a couple months here to really get some good data. But also I'm very excited to see that all the work I've done to make my muscles and body so insulin sensitive means I can probably be eating way more carb than I do and be totally fine blood glucose wise because I'm so active and insulin sensitive. So that I think it's also something great for people to be able to assess on the other side of, okay, you've done great work now. Let's see what works well for your body by adding it back in and based on your lifestyle, what you can manage. And so it kind of gives you permission to go out and try a bunch of foods and test things and maybe incorporate some things that could be giving you some great phytonutrients, great fiber, but you were cutting out just cause you were assuming that they were spiking you like I was.

Melanie Avalon:
I love this so much. What did you find with the banana out of curiosity? It really didn't do my

Vanessa Spina:
at all. And same for the Chalk Zero marshmallows, except for yesterday. They did raise my blood glucose yesterday by about 15 points. And I think it's because we were in the car all day. And so I wasn't active. So there are definitely foods, even with my insulin sensitivity. And I'm not saying that that's bad, like 15 points is fine. What matters is that you recover from it, right? And that you don't go too high, you don't want too much variability. And you want to be able to recover from it. But it just goes to show how important activity is. Because if you are really sedentary, that's not a normal day for me being in a car for three hours driving, coming back from, you know, road trip. But I did do a bunch of body weight squats after did you see that new study about the body weight squats? No, what did it find? So I'm going to do it. I'm doing an episode on it this week on my podcast. But it's about how they did this study with a group of men where they were comparing blood glucose control after a meal with doing a 30 minute walk, or 10 body weight squats every 45 minutes. And the body weight squats fared better than the 30 minute walk, which for someone like me is like, heck yes, because I don't have time to go for a 30 minute walk after dinner. I have like, at this season in my life, but I definitely have time for 10 body weight squats. So I did that every 45 minutes. Like I think I did three sets before bed. And it definitely made me feel better about having, you know, more sedentary days.

Melanie Avalon:
That's a really great, like everybody should implement that. I'm going to start implementing that.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, everyone. And I feel like if you really do them mindfully and you really like, you can feel, you're really using your quads, you're really using your glutes, like you're really getting into it. Like I would do each one very intentionally, not just like kind of flippantly, but I think that could be something that could help so many people around the world to improve their blood glucose sensitivity because not everyone has time to go for a 30 minute walk after all of their meals, right? So yeah, it's absolutely massive.

Melanie Avalon:
That is amazing. I'm going to have to get that study from you for the show notes. Okay, so yes, thoughts. And one thing about, so the Chalk Zero marshmallows, I think I'd actually been looking at those recently on Amazon. So do they have any carbs? They do? They do, okay.

Vanessa Spina:
or something I had never heard before which is resistant dextrin which is like a corn I think it's corn sourced and then it's in a lot of like confectionary type foods and I don't it's not something that's in my diet regularly but I when we were in the US I wanted Luca to try roasting marshmallows so I found them online and then I really liked them so I brought a big pack back with us and then I kind of forgot about them and then at night I was like adding because there are mini marshmallows just adding them to an element chocolate or element chocolate caramel I cook it up with I heat it up with some unsweetened almond milk and then put some marshmallows on top and it's it's amazing so I was really curious what they what they did and totally fine on an active day but yeah one serving definitely has carbs in it it has some carbs in it so anywhere from like 10 to 20 grams

Melanie Avalon:
I really want to try, I haven't had foods like this in a while, but there have been times when I would do low carb and I would have low carb alternatives. So low sugar, low carb cake mixes or things like that. And eating them would taste so sweet. They would usually be sweetened with things like Stevia and Elulose and things like that. I want to try that while wearing a CGM and see what happens. Just that experience of having something that tastes so sweet that I know actually doesn't have sugar. I want to see what that would do to my blood sugar levels.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it hasn't been and right now, so I had some about an hour ago and my blood glucose right now is 69, so it did nothing, but today I did do a weights workout this afternoon, but otherwise I didn't do like 10 ,000 steps or anything. So most of the days it has had no effect at all.

Melanie Avalon:
That's crazy that you're you're resting ones are, you know, in the 60s like that. I do want to also clarify for listeners because some listeners might not have any idea about what is, you know, ranges to look for. So like 60s is very low.

Vanessa Spina:
It's amazing. It's definitely because I'm a keto person, remember that, yeah. For the first time, I don't eat barely any carbs at all.

Melanie Avalon:
That's incredible. The alcohol piece, so I actually, I find that alcohol lowers my blood sugar and I think that's pretty consistent. So there's a lot of studies on wine and like blood sugar control and diabetes and stuff and it tends to correlate favorably, especially red wine to glycemic control. And one of the mechanisms might be that alcohol, so the main reason people's blood sugar is elevated is actually from the liver. Like that's the number one reason. It's not, I mean, it is the food you ate because it's the food going to the liver and then the liver releasing it. But the primary reason for high resting blood sugar levels is the liver creating glucose essentially and releasing it into the bloodstream, either releasing stored forms or creating its own. And so alcohol actually turns that off. Yeah, because the liver starts breaking down the alcohol instead. I thought it was related to the alcohol. Okay.

Vanessa Spina:
That's a great explanation.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you. Of course, a lot of people might be having sugary alcoholic drinks and then you're kind of canceling each other out, but if you're having dry wine, just straight alcoholic vodka or liquors without sugar, you're probably going to see a drop in your blood sugar levels. And I'm pretty sure I can look for some studies, but I'm pretty sure there are studies on having wine with meals and things like that and how it has a beneficial effect. So, I'm so excited that you got to try this and have this experience and I agree, like you said, I just feel like if everybody in the world did this just once, you know, like at least two weeks, ideally a month, I just think it would be a game changer in our metabolic health because you would like finally realize what is actually happening in your body when you fast, when you eat, when you exercise, and it's so interesting. I remember I was scared to wear one because I eat such a high carb, comma, fruit, high carbs from fruit diet. And like we're talking, I eat like pounds of fruit every night. I was really worried that that was just doing crazy things to my blood sugar levels and it's not. I mean, it's not like your results. It definitely does spike a lot higher, but it's all things I feel comfortable with. So it's so eye opening. It's also really, really interesting to test my berberine using a CGM. Do you have my berberine? Although, you know what? I mean, yours are so low. It's like you wouldn't even want to take it. But that I see like a huge, huge beneficial effect on my blood sugar levels as well.

Vanessa Spina:
What's your experience with using it?

Melanie Avalon:
It's basically what I, now what I expect to know, and I don't really, I haven't really like tested a lot of things, but basically the two things I test is either my normal diet of like, high protein, high fruit, low fat, or like the low carb, slightly higher fat, but still, still relatively low fat, still high protein though approach. And when I do that, I have significantly lower blood sugar levels than if I'm having the carbs, like the carb version, but I don't, so my spikes are probably, I'm usually, during the day, like the 80s, 90s, depending on when it is. I think that's like, that's just considered good, like great. I know if I were to do low carb or carnivore, it would be lower. I prefer my, the version of the diet that I'm in right now, that's interesting. It's kind of like, I don't know if it's a trade off per se, but I have a better cholesterol panel when I do the, and I know cholesterol panels are very debated, but I have much lower cholesterol levels, like significantly when I do the high carb, low fat, high protein approach, compared to the low carb, higher fat approach. So mine will spike, like typically with, and we're talking, this is like a massive, I eat so much fruit at night. I don't think people probably really grasp how much fruit I eat, it's a lot. So it'll usually spike up to the 120s, sometimes in the 130s, but it always comes back down by the morning. I also find doing my cryotherapy session, after I do that, it really starts going down. So basically like when I wake up is when it's the highest for the day, and by the highest, I don't mean like after eating, but the highest in the fasted state, and then it progressively goes down during the day, especially after that cryo session, which is interesting. I will say though, if you wear a CGM in the cryotherapy machine, you might get a false flag reading because it can make it, the cold can make the sensor freak out a little bit and it spikes, but it's the sensor. So yeah, and I'll go ahead and put out the link up out there for listeners. So they can get a Nutrisense CGM, go to nutrisense.com/Ifpodcast, and use the coupon code Ifpodcast that will get you $50 off a Nutrisense. I think they're like subscriptions. So I'm out of CGMs right now, they're gonna send us some new ones and I really wanna wear one. It's been a while since I worn one.

Vanessa Spina:
That was the last time you did it.

Melanie Avalon:
A few months ago, I think. OK, so pretty recent. Yeah, I'm trying to remember when. It was a few months ago. I want to do it now that I've been doing more low -carb days every week just to see. Oh, you can see the only days thing. Yeah, I mean, I still have the cucumbers and stuff, but I'm really curious doing those a few days a week. I'd like to see if that has a carryover effect to the other days. That's what I'm most interested in, I think. So what happens on the actual day, but then in general, would my levels be better?

Vanessa Spina:
I want to test so many things, like a protein spraying like modified fasting day would be fun to test. There's just so many things. I was really curious about the hummus, like I made homemade hummus. I sometimes have, usually like when we go to friends homes for parties and things, there's always like a hummus tray with cut up vegetables and carrots, peppers. Like I just really didn't eat that stuff for years. And I decided, you know, to try it, test it. And then I tested it and then I made it a few times with myself at home and nothing, like just barely any reaction at all. And again, those are on average days which are active. So for me, the biggest takeaway has been how important the activity is. And it's, you know, sometimes people think of it as like eating after a meal, but it's also before. If you're just having an active day in general, doesn't have to be every day, you know, but you're moving your body around. You're doing things, you know, that's what really, you know, gives you great glucose control, I think throughout the day. And then those 10 body weight squats every 45 minutes.

Melanie Avalon:
I know I'm gonna start doing that. Yeah, after I saw you know that

Vanessa Spina:
that, you know, we weren't that active yesterday. I was doing them in the kitchen and Luca's like, why are you doing that? I was like, oh, it's good for my body. And so he started doing them with me. Oh, cute. That's so cute. I was like, how many can you do? And then we were counting and, you know, doing them together. And, you know, and then we had our algae together, we had our spirulina together, I think I told you he calls it the medicine.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I love it.

Vanessa Spina:
that. And yeah, I was like, you know, he's doing squats and takes your Alina with me. Like, I felt like those are a couple of wins. So it's really exciting. And I think for anyone out there who's interested in learning about their bodies and their health, you know, what's amazing with the Nutrisense app is you also get a nutritionist who do video calls with you. You not only can score all your meals and sort of get this score out of 100, but there's ongoing support with a nutritionist who will answer any questions that you have as well. So I think they really provide great value with that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that was one of the things I really loved because I tried a lot of different CGM platforms and their support was really amazing and I'm I did it with a friend as well and she said the same thing like she loves chatting with them and it's it's just really, really helpful. I'm curious did Luca like roasting marshmallows?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, he really liked it. He liked it a little too much. No, I'm kidding. No, it's because I want the marshmallows. Like I only have a limited amount because I brought these back from the US. You know, I'm happy to share and give him some and he wants like all of them. So I'm like, Luca, this is a treat for mommy. You have lots of treats and snacks. This is mommy's and you know, I can only get it by flying to the US. Bring it back here. So unfortunately, I don't have anything like that over here. But yeah, when it's done, it'll be done. And, and that's fine. I'll have it next time I go back. But it's a nice little, it's a fun treat. But yeah, he loves marshmallows.

Melanie Avalon:
Have you ever made homemade mar-

Vanessa Spina:
I haven't like I know it's I've heard people make it all the time and it's not that hard Maybe I should make some you could do it with Luca. Yeah, he then then he could have as many as you want

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, that'd be so... Have I, you said? I have not. I think I've tried to make... I think I did try once. I feel like it didn't work out that well. I might revisit that. I'm pretty sure I tried to make it, yeah, with... That's when I was ordering that... What was it, Great Lakes or whatever? That ever? That gelatin?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I should make a recipe. My new college for marshmallows and, and I'll be making them. And, and that will be.

Melanie Avalon:
Make that your email grab on your website like, you know, sign up here to get my the college and marshmallow recipe. Yes, I'm gonna do that. Oh my goodness, I'm having so many flashbacks. I was the reason I was looking at the Chalk Zero marshmallows. I was randomly craving marshmallows the other day. Sorry, you were craving them? And I was like, I want to order some marshmallows. Did you try the Chalk Zero ones? No, I need to order some. I was looking at all the different brands because there's all these all these different brands on Amazon that are, you know, sugar free marshmallows.

Vanessa Spina:
These ones taste exactly like regular ones.

Melanie Avalon:
really there's no difference oh okay i want to i want to order some and they melt like normal marshmallows and everything exactly the same okay i remember um last time i had a colonoscopy lovely i know i've had way too many colonoscopies last time i had one i was looking at what you could you know have before and you actually can make jello because you could have clear jello or like certain colors of jello but not other colors and i remember i was like i'm gonna make i was like i'm gonna make this a whole thing i'm gonna make and i ordered i ordered everything like i ordered like the like little gummy bear molds molds yeah like gummy bear molds and like this watermelon flavor and like gelatin and then when it came time to do it i was like this is i'm not complicated

Vanessa Spina:
I make them with Luca, the bears. We have like, gummy bears and he's like, I want to make the bears. So make chocolate ones or Oh, chocolate jello? No, just like, like, I'll make a keto chocolate, but I'll use the teddy bear molds. Oh, okay. Yeah. But it's great to make, you know, collagen gummies to

Melanie Avalon:
And have you made gummies or no? Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
I've made, I've made those a bunch of times because it's a fun, they're healthy, low sugar. I just put Stevia in them and then it's a great treat for him and for me, but it's a great, like it's a candy for him. It looks like a candy. And then the other thing we made the other day, which was really fun was I made popsicles of element. Oh, how are those? And they're really fun because they got these cool like ice pop molds. They have different shapes, like a penguin and a whale and all this stuff. So like on a hot day, we've been making those in the morning. And I did with the watermelon element, I put the recipe on my reels and Luca helped me make them. And it was really fun. And it was great. We actually put frozen raspberries like at the bottom of the popsicles and then filled it with the raspberry element and water. And so they were like these fruit, like fruity popsicles with raspberries inside them and the element. So I called them like the hydrating popsicles so you can get hydrated while you're having delicious element and Luca loves those. So we'll probably be having a bunch this weekend too. And it's great because they're not messy, you know, like with kids, just like everything is melting, but it's really just water that's melting. So it's fine.

Melanie Avalon:
That's amazing. For listeners, if they'd like to try element, they can go to drink L M N T dot com slash Ifpodcast. They make amazing electrolyte supplement, well packets. And then now they have sparkling. Have you, have you seen the sparkling drinks they have?

Vanessa Spina:
I haven't gotten to try them yet because I don't think they can ship them here, but I'm loving, I love the idea. I was really surprised actually when I saw it.

Melanie Avalon:
kind of like a soda, you know, because it's like a sparkling drink, but it's the element and they have a watermelon. I haven't tried it yet. I have it here. I haven't tried them. But yeah, so that's, that's super exciting. I have another thought about that. Oh, I'm curious, since you were like international growing up, did you have the experience of the ice cream truck man?

Vanessa Spina:
was that a thing oh yeah I mean not in China but when we were in Canada in the summer yes

Melanie Avalon:
Ice cream truck yeah like hearing this I just remember like the moment when you're like a kid you hear the sound and it's like oh no am I gonna make it in time and you're like running and then like if you miss you have to like run after them.

Vanessa Spina:
Eddie Murphy has a great fit on that ice cream ice cream that is coming and then he like you know all the kids run to get money and

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's why I was thinking my head I was in my head. I was like, wait a minute. Why did it take so long? Oh, right. You have to go get the money. Yes. There's a lot you have to accomplish

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, he does this like dance that the kids do once they get their ice creamed, like I got my ice cream and got my ice cream, it's a really good, it's a really good.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so funny. I like feel the cortisol spike though of like, it's like the ultimate moment of like, this must be accomplished really fast and like go. Did they steal noodles? Yeah. Yeah. I see them around and I get flashbacks. Oh, that's fun. So I remember I would always get the cartoon. My favorite was the Bugs Bunny with the gumball eyes.

Vanessa Spina:
I like the rocket one that's like red, white.

Melanie Avalon:
in blue. Oh, man, good times. There was something about those. Did they have the cartoon, the cartoon ice cream ones that you're in Canada? I think so. There was something about that texture that was just so unique. Mm hmm. Like what is it? I don't even know. It's amazing. It probably was an indexron. Probably. Oh, man.

Vanessa Spina:
When I was reading up about it last night, it said it's used in a lot of like confectionary types of foods.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yeah. It's kind of like the rumor that like there are some things that like don't melt like McDonald's ice cream or something. It takes a really long time to melt. Yes. So in any case, CGMs. I highly, highly recommend them for, you know, finding the foods that work for you and really seeing, you know, how your fast affects you. And I'm glad that you talked so much about the role that physical activity plays, because I really think that's really underappreciated for the effects that it has on our blood sugar levels. Like I just think it is so, so important and has a huge impact. And it's something that's really hard to understand unless you're seeing it in real time, you know, on a continuous glucose monitor.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I agree and I was not expecting that to be my main takeaway, you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. Do you experience the dawn effect at all?

Vanessa Spina:
No, I was going to ask you about that because I know you said that you did that you do and I was expecting it. I was expecting there to be some kind of rise, but most nights or mornings, like it's pretty steady throughout the night, like pretty much the same range as during the day, but a little lower because I'm not moving or being active. And then it's just a very gradual rise throughout the morning and then I have coffee and it goes up like five points, maybe 10 points, but no.

Melanie Avalon:
nothing big. Now I really want to test. I want to see if I either don't or if I get a blunted effect when I do my mostly meat days.

Vanessa Spina:
I think I need more data, so I want to touch back on that, like circle back on that, because I know there's a few days of calibration, you know, the CGM is kind of, I want more data before I say like, really what's been going on, but that's so far, I just haven't really seen much, much of one, but I know, yeah, there's so much interpersonal variability when it comes to that.

Melanie Avalon:
So the Dawn Effect, it's basically this quote, natural rise in blood sugar that people will often see in the early hours of the morning. And it's basically a circadian based dumping of the liver, of blood sugar into the system and people will see a spike even though they didn't eat anything. And I definitely do see that spike and also probably involves cortisol as well, I think. So again, to listeners, they can go to nutrisense.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code ifpodcast to get $50 off. Okay, anything else about the CGM? I think we covered it. Awesome. Yeah, I thought we could leave because there was two more comments. Last week, I was reading people's experiences about the different types of intermittent fasting that they practice and we had two more that I hadn't read. So I was just going to read those really quickly. So I don't think we actually like give our thoughts on all the different answers. But if listeners would like to go back to last week, they can hear all these different approaches that people are trying with intermittent fasting. Two last ones we had. One was from Jen. She said, I'm in the process of adjusting mine now. My husband and I work different schedules and are not always hungry at the same time. But I struggle with not having my coffee upon waking, not because I need it, because I enjoy it. It's a pure want. Ideally, I can overcome this strong desire and hold out because I'd like to transition to an eating window of 1 to 7 p .m. How much coffee do you drink, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
day. So I just have one in the morning usually a latte. I make two shots of espresso. It's like around 150 milligrams and I put a couple of cups of unsweetened almond milk in it. And that's it usually for the day unless it's like the weekend and I go for brunch with friends and then I usually have a couple in the morning.

Melanie Avalon:
And you said you did not see an effect, right, on your blood sugar from the coffee?

Vanessa Spina:
There is one, but it's about, I would say like five to 10 points. It's not, I wouldn't consider that a spike. I would just consider that like a normal response.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's so interesting.

Vanessa Spina:
and it's very stable after.

Melanie Avalon:
That's yeah, that's so I wonder if man I feel like if I were to have coffee Because I just have a I just have a little tiny sip every morning of my danger coffee, which is my favorite You can go to Melanie Avalon comm slash danger and use the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get a discount on that If I were to have like an actual cup of coffee, I bet my I'd be so curious, but I bet my blood sugar would probably Shoot way high I think

Vanessa Spina:
One way for you to test and for us to see because there are so many things that I thought I just assumed were spiking me that have not been and I love how we had that one episode we did just on coffee and we talked about all the research showing that it actually is great for you in the morning, great for cortisol. I love that episode but I love to hear what happens when you test it.

Melanie Avalon:
It's funny. I feel like I'll research whenever I research coffee. It's the opposite of most people So like a lot of people are like trying to wean off coffee. I Like I said, I just have a few steps every morning. But when I research coffee, I'm like, man, I maybe I should be more Maybe I should be drinking more coffee. It just seems like it does have so many health benefits Pretty consistently if you're not, you know going crazy with it The reason I love danger coffee is it it's Dave Asprey's new ish coffee after bulletproof And it's remineralized and it's mold free and it tastes just so delicious. I just love it I love giving it as gifts as well But yeah The reason I I would be really curious like you said to test the reason I feel like it would Jump really high is I just feel like it would give me such an adrenaline boost and probably a cortisol spike and I just Feel like my liver would dump all this, you know put out this glucose But who knows it would be a hard experiment to do because if I were to have a huge I don't know how I don't know how I would sleep that night if I had like a huge Amount it's so very interesting. Is that why you only have a sip? Yeah, I think it's because historically, you know, I struggled a lot with insomnia and sleep issues and always felt like I would be on the coffee caffeine roller coaster and When I cut it out completely it's like oh I actually don't I actually don't Need it, but I love having like it feels just like a little like Ritual and a hermetic stress in a way like just having this, you know a few sips in the morning I really like having it. It wasn't the case of where like with wine where I cut that out completely I was like, no, I I definitely feel better having like my nightly wine. But with coffee, I was like, oh I I don't I Don't see myself needing that much more but and then the nice thing is you have it in your back pocket so when you're not drinking coffee regularly if you ever do have a day where you have to We're completely sleep deprived and you need energy all you have to do is like have a cup of coffee and you're like you can like climb Mount Everest, so It's nice to like have it in your back pocket My only recent memory of doing that was when I got up early for the Taylor Swift tickets and then Had to be awake for six hours and the Ticketmaster queue coffee was helpful for that One more comment for the fasting. So Nina said I was doing intermittent fasting but then I read some info about skipping breakfast being bad for you, so now I just eat whenever and Fast for three days every month I've done seven days once and a seven -day juice fast prior to that not sure if it's doing anything But I definitely feel more energy and focus during a fast and my blood sugar and a1c are always good Trying to increase white blood cells and improve immunity without success so far Okay, so this comment So basically Nina's experience was she was doing intermittent fasting Then she read skipping breakfast was bad So she stopped fasting, but she does fast for three days I feel like this is an example where It's something there's this idea out there that you know skipping breakfast is bad and I I just feel like it's and we've talked about it a lot in previous shows, but I feel like it's based on a lot of misleading information and Maybe in an ideal world if you were completely controlled maybe eating Earlier in the day would be better than eating later in the day, but when you look at the overall Like lifestyle and like what is the fasting habit that you can stick to and if you enjoy skipping breakfast I feel like a lot of that data and again, we've talked about it in prior episodes So maybe we can put links to it, but I think it's very misleading. It is okay to skip breakfast I think I just get sad hearing people who like so it's not like she um, you know, it's not like she just changed her fasting window She just stopped fasting because she heard that Although she does fast for three days every month. Yeah. Do you have thoughts about that Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
So I definitely think that this is a belief that is circulating right now because there have been a lot of people talking about leptin and leptin resistance. So if someone is having issues with their leptin, leptin levels being too high, just like with insulin resistance, your insulin levels are too high, then having breakfast within an hour of waking a high protein breakfast can be really helpful for that. But if you don't have leptin resistance, then it's not an issue. So if you want to check, you can have your leptin tested. The optimal range for leptin is between five to 10. So if your leptin is really, really high, it could be an indicator if you're way out of range on that, that your brain is not receiving the leptin signal, which is giving you symptoms like you're always hungry. If you're not getting that signal that you've consumed food, leptin is released after you consume food to basically signal to stop eating. And some people develop a resistance to that signal. So this is only for people who have leptin resistance. For everyone else, it's not necessary for any other kind of benefit. I think there are some benefits to eating earlier, like you said, but there's also benefits to skipping breakfast. I think they kind of even out in the end, it just comes down to what you prefer and what suits you best. Like most days I skip breakfast, but like this weekend, we're away with friends. We were all having, you know, Mother's Day branch and stuff together. Like I definitely had breakfast, fully enjoyed it. Felt great all day, you know, but most of the time I don't have time to make breakfast in it for myself. It works better. So it really comes under personal preference. And if you don't have a leptin issue, I don't think you should be concerned with that. So I think it is going around a lot right now because it has to do with circadian health. It's known as a zeitgeiber, you know, you're helping your body's peripheral clocks and organ clocks, you know, sync up with the light. But you can also do that by getting natural light on your body, getting morning light on your body, going for a walk outside in the morning or doing some grounding, or even just stepping outside for a little bit, getting some morning light that initiates a lot of those hormonal cascades. And it's an even more powerful signaler or zeitgeiber than food is. So I don't think anyone should be concerned about skipping breakfast. And even Dr. Don Lehman, who I constantly invoke, he skips breakfast, he has like a mid -morning meal. So like around, I think he says he has his first meal around 10 or 11. He considers, you know, first meal of the day is your break fast. It doesn't matter.

Melanie Avalon:
if you have it earlier or later. I could not agree more. Yeah, and I think just so many studies, like looking at that word break fast, like you said, a lot of the studies don't take into account, especially studies that are looking at later eating versus earlier eating, they're not looking at it in a fasting pattern. So they're not taking into account that, yes, for most people, if you've been eating throughout the day, of course you're gonna have poor glycemic control later in the day because you've been eating all day. So you've been like taxing that system. But if you're break fast, if you don't start eating until later in the day, you're much more primed and insulin sensitive than if you had been eating earlier. So I think that's something really important to keep in mind with a lot of the data about eating earlier versus eating later. I get sad to think some people hear this idea and then they think that they just can't fast then. But I'm really glad that you talked about the leptin thing. That's a really good thing to point out. So thank you for that. Yeah, but it was really exciting to read all of the people's different approaches to the fasting. And I feel like the takeaway for me is that there's so many different approaches and clearly so many different things work for different people. So definitely work to find the fasting window that works for you and also know that you can change it. You can also not change it. I think there's sometimes pressure that people feel like they have to change things up. But if something's working for you, keep on keeping on, I think, in my opinion. Yeah, any other thoughts about that?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think, I mean, the only other situation that just came to mind is, you know, someone who is very undermuscled or has lost a lot of muscle if they've been on bed rest or something. That could be a situation where you want to make sure to stop muscle protein breakdown as early in the day as possible. You know, someone who's like frail, elderly, really undermuscled, breakfast would be probably a good option. But again, it's really like very specialized circumstances, I think, where you're getting more benefit than not, especially if it's something that you like doing. A lot of people who skip breakfast do it because it aligns with how they feel in the morning. And I know you've talked about also and written about how hormonally we're kind of primed to eat later in the day than we are first thing in the day.

Melanie Avalon:
So I definitely think we are. So like the moment I did a blog post on this, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. It's called, I should probably retitle it to something more search friendly, but it's called early versus late night eating, contradictions, confusions, and clarity. I went through and looked at like the actual hormonal profiles of what happens for most people at different times of the day. And like right upon awakening, it's not really any of the hormones conducive to eating. Like it just from a hormonal standpoint does not, to me, seem to make sense to be eating. Like your cortisol is going up higher. So basically, the hormone is associated with eating. So like higher ghrelin, lower leptin, changes in adrenaline and cortisol and all these things are shifted a little bit later in the day. They're not right upon awakening, even adiponectin aligns accordingly. So I personally don't think that we're meant to wake up and eat right away. Because historically, as an evolutionary perspective, you'd wake up and it'd be like, time to go find the food. So your body is primed to give you endogenous energy, energy that you already have inside of you to go find the food. It's not like we would wake up to a buffet breakfast. That was not the situation happening, at least not on this planet. So any other thoughts? Yeah, I think that covers it pretty well. Awesome. Awesome. So a few things for listeners before we go. The show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast.com/episode375. The show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. And there will be links to everything that we talked about, including element and Nutrisense. Again, if you would like your own continuous glucose monitor, which I don't think we actually said, I know we said it's like a sensor that you put on your arm, but I will say that they're very easy to apply. They can look intimidating. They're not you just like stick it on, you don't even feel it. I remember being so shocked the first time I put it on how much you don't feel it when you're putting it on. And it measures the interstitial fluid constantly to provide that look at your blood sugar levels. So the link for that is Nutrisense.com/ifpodcast with the coupon code ifpodcast to get $50 off. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are ifpodcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is Ketogenic Girl. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had a wonderful time and just want to thank everyone for the great comments. I love hearing them and going through them with you and it was so much fun to chat all about CGM so I'm excited to circle back in the future when you do your next round and I do you know several more weeks as well we can chat more about some more insights.

Melanie Avalon:
I know that'll be really exciting. I'm really looking forward to it.

Vanessa Spina:
It would be fun to ask in the group you know what were people's biggest or takeaways from their CGM experience.

Melanie Avalon:
I'll post that today, that's perfect. Good idea. Awesome. Well, have a wonderful evening and I will talk to you next week. All right, sounds great. Bye. Talk to you then, bye -bye. 

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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Jun 16

Episode 374: Autoimmune conditions, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Inflammation, C-Reactive Protein, Plant Based Diets, Fasting Styles, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 374 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any drink mix purchase!

SEED: This episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you in part by Seed. Seed's DS-01 Daily Synbiotic is a 2-in-1 prebiotic and probiotic formulated to support gut health, skin health, and overall well-being. With clinically and scientifically studied strains, Seed's Daily Synbiotic promotes digestive health, boosts immune function, and enhances your body's nutrient absorption. Start your journey to a healthier you with Seed's innovative and effective synbiotic formula. Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any drink mix purchase!

MD LOGIC: Try MD Logic's Colostrum and discover the benefits of one of nature's most powerful superfoods. Save 15% off with code IFCOLOSTRUM at mdlogichealth.com.

SEED: Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

SCHWANK GRILL: Visit schwankgrills.com and use promo code IFPODCAST to get $150 OFF a Schwank Grill!

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get bone-in chicken thighs, top sirloins, or salmon—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

Apollo Neuro: Instant Stress Relief, The Science Of Safety, Sound Wave Therapy, Health And Happiness, Practical Tools For Peace, And More!

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Listener Q&A: Jen Marceaux - IF & RA Question

Go to insidetracker.com/melanie and use the coupon code Melanie for a discount!

Listener Q&A: What type(s) of intermittent fasting do you practice and why?

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #74 - Benjamin Bikman, Ph.D.

Go to Nutrisense.com/IFpodcast and use the coupon code IFpodcast to get $50 off!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 374 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.


Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 374 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. What is new in your world, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, we just had an amazing weekend away. We went to this magical little town for the weekend with a couple of my girlfriends here and their husbands and their kids who my son Luca is obsessed with their boys and they just had the most fun weekend. We all had the most fun weekend being together there. And it was great to get out of the city, just like, you know, get away for, I guess we went Saturday to Monday and I'm still just buzzing off the trip because it was so relaxing, so enjoyable. And you know, when you have little ones, like, and they have friends to play with all weekend, your parents get a little bit of like a break too, so we could sit, enjoy some Prosecco, relax together. Yeah, it was such a fun weekend away. And then we got back. It just feels like we've been kicking off summer. We've been grilling a lot and just, I love grilling because grilling season. I mean, it's delicious to grill, but for me, I feel like I get a break from cooking for at least a few months and a big break because Pete loves to grill. So I basically just have to get the burgers or steak ready and he does the cooking and it's a really nice change of pace.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, grilling. If I were to grill, I would, I literally would just like put it there for a hot second. We've talked about how we cook our steaks, right? Yes, I think so. Like I like mine super rare, very rare. How do you like it?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I like it so rare that people stare. Oh, I like that. People are like, Are you sure? And yeah, I when we were recently in Spain, I got this steak that was so rare and my aunt was just like, Are you okay? Like, I'm like, I've been in Europe too long because in Prague, tartar, like beef tartar is huge and in Paris. And so there's a lot of tartar places. I was craving it my whole pregnancy. And it was like one of the things that was the most excited to get to have again, but I love raw beef. It's just amazing and steak. Sometimes depending on the cut, I'll get it like medium rare, but I love like rare most of the time to and just getting a steak, being able to grill a steak at home, the way that you have it in the restaurant. I know we talked about how you worked at Ruth's Chris, which is my favorite steakhouse. But you know, you go to a restaurant and you pay, you know, 1020, sometimes way more times the price of steak just to eat it the way that they make it at the restaurant, because they have these incredible grills. And they have these like infrared heat, these huge infrared grills that now people can actually get at home. There's a company that I recently started checking out called Schwank grills, and they they basically make the grills that go in all the restaurants. I'm not sure if they had one in Ruth's Chris, but there's a couple of restaurants that are really famous that I think Morton's is one of them. And they make the grills that go in their restaurants. And they started making at home versions so that people can just do that at home and not have to go to the restaurant and basically save so much money because you can have restaurant quality steak at home because of that special infrared grill that you basically you just can't do that, you know, with a stove or even with a regular barbecue.

Melanie Avalon:
So they actually made the grills and mortons? I didn't realize that.

Vanessa Spina:
I think so. I think that's what he told me on our call, but now it's been a few months, so I'm like... Oh, okay. Back check. He told me, I think it was Morton's, because I was really hoping it was Ruth's Chris.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, the same heating technology used by Morton's.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. So he told me on the call that the grandfather of the founder of Schwank Girls, he invented this technology, the infrared grilling, and they provide the infrared girls in a lot of steakhouses and Morton's is one of them. Did you find it on their website?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I didn't realize that they have the same technology as Morton's. That's really cool. And I'm just looking them up and they also, let's see. It's the same technology used by Morton's cut for 32 Del Frisco's and many other world -class steakhouses. So yes. So friends, if you are into grilling, the Schwank grills sound absolutely amazing. I just have one little quick fact about what to grill in the Schwank grill. Do you know like the USDA system, like the Select, the Choice, the Prime? I had epiphany about this recently, about the steaks. So that's the grating system. And they always talk about how great USDA Prime steaks are. And even when like, when I was at Ruth's Chris, we would have like USDA Prime, you know, fillets that we've made in this crazy infrared heat. I wonder if it was infrared heat at Ruth's Chris. I'm not sure, but it got really hot. Regardless, I was thinking about it. And if you're eating conventional, and I would be curious your thoughts on this, Vanessa, my thoughts are if you're eating grass -fed beef, I feel better about the higher fat cuts, but if I'm eating like conventional beef, I would want to get leaner because the, the toxins and everything are typically stored in the fat. And then the conventional beef is going to have a less, slightly less ideal Amaco 3 .6 fatty acid ratio. But again, it's not a huge source of that anyways, but my point is if I'm eating conventional beef, I would want to go leaner and the grating. So like Select versus Choice versus Prime, it really has to do with the marbling. So it really has to do with how much fat the steaks have. So if you're shopping at the grocery store, the Select and the Choice steaks, which are going to be cheaper, it's really more about how they just have less fat. And in a conventional steak, that's actually what I would want. Actually, maybe even with grass -fed because I actually like eating leaner beef. I feel like it's a little hack for the grocery store about saving money on steaks.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I love grocery store hacks, any way to make buying high quality meat more affordable, more accessible for more people. And I do sort of, I do practice that myself. When it comes to beef, I tend to buy leaner cuts in general, just as a day to day way of eating. And then if I am going for something, you know, more luxurious, richer, fattier cut, it's usually I go with something grass fed and finished. Usually what we get here is from Ireland or Argentina. Both of those places have grass fed and finished steak here. I think in the US, I usually get it from New Zealand. Whenever I'm in the US and I get my butcher box shipment, I also get all the grass fed and finished beef in there. And I usually choose those fattier cuts as well.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, see, that's an example, glad you brought a butcher box, an example of not having to worry about that as much because all their beef is grass -fed. So here's all the hacks. If you want to go like the conventional grocery store route, get the cheap select beef. And then if you want the grass -fed, get it from ButcherBox because that will save you money and that will be coming straight to your door anyways. And then get your Schwank grill. And we actually have a code for listeners for Schwank grills. So if you go to Schwankgrills.com, so that's S -C -H -W -A -N -K grills.com, you can use the promo code IFPODCAST to get $150 off of your grill. So that's Schwank grills, S -C -H -W -A -N -K grills.com with the promo code IFPODCAST to get $150 off. I really want to give one of these to my dad for Father's Day. When is Father's Day? I think it's June next month. So Father's Day was yesterday. Yes. So that would have been a great present or a good last -minute present if you forgot your dad, which would be a little bit sad, but you can order it now. So yes. And actually speaking of, okay, just one more thing while we're talking about really fun products really quickly. I am so, so excited because I've been talking for so long and I've been using every single night of my life Apollo Neuro. Do you know what this is, Vanessa? I love that.

Vanessa Spina:
it up after you sent me the link it sounds amazing

Melanie Avalon:
And I use a lot of biohacking type things in my life. I started using this when I first, I was around when I first launched my biohacking podcast. It's a game changer. I probably have used it every single night for years, with very, very few exceptions. And I hear equally favorable excitement from listeners about it. So basically what it is, it's a kind of like a watch that you put on your hand, but it's not a watch, obviously. The face of it basically buzzes. It uses soundwave therapy, which is gentle vibrations, and has different programs. And the way it works is those gentle vibrations on your wrist actually activate your parasympathetic nervous system. So it can basically instantly turn off your stress or at least mitigate it just with the touch of a button. It's incredible. I really think it's a game changer in helping me when I was really struggling to actually fall asleep. But it has a lot of other different modes. It has social mode for during the day. It has muscle recovery, things like that. But I use the unwind one every single night, and then it has a sleep one. It's a game changer. I have given it to so many people. I gave it to my mom, and she said it was absolutely amazing. I actually need to text her about it because I feel like she stopped using it. You know how there's some people that you give them things and they love it, and they just stop using it. But yeah, so I'm really excited because they asked to partner with our show, and I just love them for that one. Listeners can go to apolloneuro.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to get a discount on that. So I am very, very excited about that, and the last thing about that, but I'm excited as well because the founder, Dave Rabin, who I've had on my show, I think twice, he's going to be at the biohacking conference, which by the time this comes out that this will be in the past, but hopefully I'll get to meet him in person, which is very exciting. That is so soon for me. So yes, but I think that is all the things. Shall we get into some questions? I would love to. All right. So would you like to read the first question from Jen?

Vanessa Spina:
So our first question comes to us from Jen. Hi, I'm a new listener of your podcast but have been doing IF off and on for about four years in parentheses COVID need I say more I'm back at it and I'm trying to bring a friend along with me. She has rheumatoid arthritis and was recently prescribed Remicade infusions which might be helpful for RA but just like many other pharmaceutical treatments it can also cause a host of other scary things. I suggested that she try intermittent fasting. I know you're not doctors and do not offer medical advice but can you speak to any benefits IF could possibly provide for someone with joint pain, inflammation and autoimmune disorders in general. Thanks. I'm loving your podcast so much. I went back and started at the beginning while I wait for new episodes to come out. Smiley face. I feel like I'm hanging out with my BFFs while I'm listening. I love that Jen. Thank you so much for this great question.

Melanie Avalon:
So, I love this question from Jen. It was actually good timing because last night I was listening to, do you subscribe to Peter Tia's?

Vanessa Spina:
special feed. I do and sometimes I pause it. So right now I have it actually paused and then other times I'll go back and subscribe.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, and then like stock up.

Vanessa Spina:
No, it just kind of like depends when I'm feeling the his content and when I'm not like I find like sometimes he gets in these cycles of when he's like really pro this or anti this or I don't know, it's just depending on what kind of content is coming out. I'm either a subscriber or not, but yes and no.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Now I'm having flashbacks. I had a dream that I met him the other night. I've realized the two people I dream most about meeting are Taylor Swift and Peter Atiyah, which is interesting, but I dreamed he like came up to me and he was like, he was like, I know about your podcast. He was like, one is about biohacking and one is about intermittent fasting. I just can't, you know, cause like he, those are like his, the two things he kind of like, well, biohacking, he does not like. And then fasting, he seems all over the board and it was a tragedy of a dream. Regardless, his most recent Q and a was all about inflammation. So I was excited cause I was like, this is perfect for this question. Although he didn't, I have a few more minutes left in it, but he did not talk about fasting yet. But what I was thinking about was the big takeaway that he really talked about a lot with it. And this is what I think I would have probably said and come to as well is that such a huge factor in our inflammatory conditions is our diet and the food that we're putting in our body. He actually said like the first thing to address really with inflammation is energy overload, like taking in, you know, too much fuel and the effects that that has. But beyond that, so like beyond excess caloric intake and weight and all of those things, there's also, you know, they're reacting to food components. And I'm going to circle back to that because of some of the studies that I found. So I did find a nice October 2023 review and it was called intermittent fasting, a promising dietary intervention for autoimmune disease. And so it was talking about how there are, you know, quite a good amount of studies on intermittent fasting that have shown beneficial effects on various autoimmune diseases and that the different reasons that that might be is because it can reduce inflammatory markers, it can modulate the immune system, it can alter and improve gut microbiota, it can enhance cellular repair mechanisms. And it does that last one through autophagy, which is something we talk about a lot, which is basically where the body goes and in the fasted state uses old problematic broken proteins in the body and breaks them down and reuses them. So it's kind of like a cleansing on the cellular level. So in this review, they said the types of autoimmune conditions that have shown beneficial effects from fasting include type 1 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, and systemic lupus. They said that there needs to be, that there's limited evidence and inconclusive evidence on MS. Now they're saying lupus again. So that's interesting. That sounds like a typo in this paper, thyroid diseases and psoriasis. So all of that said, basically, there are a ton of mechanisms within intermittent fasting that can help with inflammation and autoimmune disease. And I did want to look specifically into rheumatoid arthritis for her question. And so I found a very nice study from March 2024, so also pretty recent. And it was called fasting mimicking diets, a literature review of their impact on inflammatory arthritis. And I was worried it was going to be just about fasting mimicking diets, but it actually wasn't. It actually was about fasting in general. I'm not really sure why they, I feel like they should have titled it something a little bit different. But so in this study, and it was very intense, but they basically talk about the role of fasting in autoimmune conditions in the immune system and autoimmune conditions in general. And basically fasting has a lot of effects on proinflammatory cytokine expression. So that's kind of like what I was talking about a moment ago with the inflammatory markers. And it also has a really interesting impact on both cell trafficking and cell metabolism. So there's a lot of different inflammatory markers that fasting can affect. So there's things like CRP, TNF -A alpha, interleukin -6, IL -6 that people might have heard of, leptin, really quick tangent about CRP. And I don't know if we've talked about this before on the show. Have you tested your CRP much, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I've tested it here and there over the years, how often do you...

Melanie Avalon:
test it? Well, the reason I was asking is because I test it. So I use insight tracker all the time and it's on their panel. So I've tested it regularly multiple times a year for years and years. And mine's I'm a flat line. What's interesting about it is I guess I thought that that would be normal because it's such a flat line. I've never I've never bumped. It's always the lowest it can be, which it doesn't test for zero. It's like less than one is the lowest it can be on the test. So the lowest it can test on the test is point. Well, okay. It says it can be zero to eight. The range on insight tracker is zero to point eight. I'm wondering if you can even test zero because minus point has been point three every single test for years and years and years. And I thought that that would be normal because it was so flat line. I was like, Oh, that must just be something that some people do. But one of my friends at insight tracker said he's never seen that before ever. I was like, wow. So, and it's funny because I always sort of feel like I'm inflamed. Like I think I get kind of psychosomatic, like obsessed with the concept of inflammation. And I'm like, Oh, I'm inflamed. But from a cellular level, I'm not. So in any case, going back to all the stuff about inflammation, the reason I'm talking about it so much is because arthritis and autoimmune conditions are an inflammatory condition and fasting has such a beneficial effect on all these different biomarkers. Some of the other mechanisms of actions that it talks about, it's postulated that that rheumatoid arthritis actually involves metabolic issues in the cell and the cells aren't actually able to produce enough ATP. And it's been shown that fasting can have a beneficial effect on that entire process, which is super cool. And then so fasting also has a beneficial effect on the balance of the T cells and how they're acting in our immune system. So those are some of the cells that are involved in actually, you know, doing what the immune system needs to be doing. And then what's also really interesting as well is that there might actually be a gut microbiome connection to arthritis and fasting has been shown to have a beneficial effect on the gut microbiome. Circling back to diet, like I was saying earlier, so there's been a few studies on fasting and dietary interventions on rheumatoid arthritis, and they actually in the studies combine them with a diet. So like in one of the studies, they actually combined fasting with a vegetarian diet. And they saw when they did that, so basically not, they didn't like eat during the fast, but they fasted and they followed it up with a vegetarian diet. And they found a significant decline in symptoms for patients who did that eating plan for three and a half months, compared to people who did not. And what's really interesting in the trials and something that they noted is that the benefits that people did seem to experience from fasting would come back when people went back to their normal eating pattern. So it's not like you could use fasting to, I don't really like saying in remission because it sounds like, oh, it can never go away. Or it can sound like you can't be cured in a way. But it is really important to keep in mind that if you put your body back into the state where it's encouraging that inflammatory condition, or it's encouraging that condition that affects the immune system, that the condition would come back. So with something like arthritis, it's not really, I don't think it's like you can cure it permanently with fasting, but it could be that while you're doing fasting, you experience a drastic reduction in your symptoms or like I was saying, going into remission. But yes, basically, there was a lot of literature on fasting and inflammation and the immune system and autoimmune conditions, and quite a few on arthritis specifically. So do you have thoughts on fasting and autoimmune conditions, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, that was such an incredible overview. So comprehensive, so detailed. I mean, it's hard to think of anything to add to that. It was such an amazing response and just so much wonderful information. I think it's amazing, you know, with the body, how intelligent it is, and how it is programmed to thrive and be in homeostasis. And often, we're doing things that interfere with that. And that's one of the reasons I love fasting so much is that you kind of step out of the way of your body's natural innate intelligence and let it restore things. And I think that's why we see so much, you know, healing happening with fasting, why we see so much lowered inflammation, all the things that you were talking about. And, you know, as Jen said, we're not doctors. But you know, there's a lot of research out there showing that, you know, fasting does provide some of these benefits. And a lot of people actually, you know, report that they have alleviation of their symptoms, you know, with either fasting or a combination of fasting and, you know, some kind of medical protocol as well. So, you know, it definitely couldn't hurt to try it, I think. But you know, it all depends on what your friend thinks. But if you are able to maybe show her some of the study, show her some of the research, then maybe she'll become interested and want to try it out. And it could work well for her. It could not. But I don't really think there's that much harm in trying it. And it's, there's just so many lifestyle interventions that are basically free of charge. You know, it just takes trying it out, testing it out and seeing if it makes a difference for you. And if it does, how valuable is that? You know,

Melanie Avalon:
It's so true. And I'm glad you pointed that out. I think it's a really high potential benefit for a really low risk. So like the risk reward ratio is on point. I also forgot to mention Dr. Walter Longo, who did develop the fasting mimicking diet, which I was mentioning in that title of that study. I remember one of his studies and I remember him like saying this. Did he say this to me like on the show? I can like hear his voice saying this. I don't know if it was like on a podcast or on my show or his audio book, but I know they found in their work that they could actually basically regenerate, like replace the rodents entire immune system. Like when they would go on these fasting mimicking diets, it would kill off these old immune cells and basically create a new immune system. Again, that was in rodents, but there's definitely a lot of, a lot of promise there. Like I'll read the summary of the study I was reading or talking about that was specifically about arthritis. So their conclusion was fasting acts on cellular mechanisms and regulates the metabolism of immune cells. Thus commitment to an eating pattern that includes a fasting component could suppress the inflammatory process. So far, most of the reported dietary interventions show beneficial effects on symptoms and disease progression and rheumatoid arthritis and PSA patients, but says there is still much to learn about fasting and the impact of different fasting patterns on non obese and older patients. And more evidence is required before recommending any such eating regimens as supplemental diet therapy to patients with inflammatory arthritis. And to clarify that, that sentence I feel is talking more about like doctors, you know, recommending this as an actual, you know, diet, like it says, diet therapy. I wouldn't be nervous about that sentence or shy away from using it. I find that overall, the study was really, really supportive. Like the beginning of the conclusion said, definitely let us know Jen. I mentioned earlier that that CRP, that would be a good, you know, if somebody's looking for like an actual marker of something changing for inflammation in their body. I mean, of course they could look at their autoimmune markers, like their antibodies, but measuring their CRP would be something good to look at because that would be a good indicator of, you know, how is your inflammatory response in your body actually changing? And do you have chronic inflammation or not? So Okey Dokey, and actually I'll give a link for inside tracker. Since I, like I said, I'm so obsessed with it. You can go for that one. You can go to inside tracker.com/Melanie, and the coupon code Melanie will get you. They just switched over to a subscription model. I know you get some sort of discount with that code. So that is something to check out. Okay. Shall we go into our next topic? I would love to. So I thought this would be fun. I really liked posting in the Facebook group and asking questions for the audience. And I was really curious asking people, I said, friends, what type of intermittent fasting or types do you practice and why? I was really curious what people would say. So would you like to hear what some of the people are practicing? I would love to.

Vanessa Spina:
I love these segments.

Melanie Avalon:
I like it too because I don't read it beforehand, the answers. So it's like in real time, me reading it right now. And I like hearing people's reasons. So Emily said she does a daily eating window because it is a comfortable way to live. So I'm not sure exactly what hours she's practicing. Janice says she does a daily fasting window. Okay, so now we're getting into it right away, whether or not people look at the eating window or the fasting window. So Janice does a daily fasting window of 18 to 20 hours. She says, I'm just not hungry. All I eat is protein and healthy fats. During the week before my menstrual cycle, I cut back to 14 hours or so because perimenopause is kicking my butt these days. We had a recent episode where we talked about fasting around your menstrual cycle. So listeners can check that out. Bethany said, I mainly do 16, 8, but once a week, a 24 hour fast and a couple times a year, a two to three day fast. I'm about to start trying 12 to 14 hours fasting as I'm not losing fat. Even though I'm not hungry for breakfast, I realize I'm not getting enough protein in two meals. I mostly eat protein and veggies and fruit. I just can't eat too much at once or I feel bloated. Stephanie said I stopped eating after dinner and I don't eat again until lunch the next day. IF has helped my late night snacking so much. Zoe said I'm usually an 18 -6 schedule, but I've done a couple 36 hour fasts. Andrea said I eat one meal a day fasting 20 to 23 hours per day. It's simply the pattern that I've fallen into comfortably and easily. It works with my schedule to eat dinner with my family. Then I keep eating until I'm full and I close my window again until dinner the next day. I've done a few extended fasts of 48 hours without problems. I don't have a reason to eat one meal a day. Aside from it's just what naturally comes to me. I'm not hungry during the day so there's no reason to eat. I'm written fasting has been an absolute game changer in my health. My doctor is thrilled with my labs. He gets so excited to see me because I always have him run a fasting insulin test. None of his other patients are ever fasted long enough or have already had their coffee. Jane said that this is her pattern as well that she's been fasting five and a half years and it is effortless to live this way and has been a game changer for her health too. I'm trying to remember didn't you test your insulin your doctor said it was too low?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it always gets circled because it's like way out of range. But it's usually around two. I think the last I had it was 1 .4 and I need to do an updated test, but everything gets so wonky during pregnancy and postpartum I'm waiting a little bit. And then I will do an updated test, but it's tight. My, it's my, my blood glucose control is tight. And yeah, I know we're, we're going to be talking next episode about CGM's and I definitely saw it in action using the CGM. So just a little teaser about that episode, but yeah, it was, it was too. And a lot of my things come out of range and I want them to be, because I don't want to be in range with the general population reference ranges because we know we have, you know, in the Western world, a population that is mostly metabolically unwell, so I want to be out of range.

Melanie Avalon:
No, well, speaking to the insulin, that's crazy about your insulin. They actually recently did add insulin to inside tracker as well, which was really exciting for me. So I have only tested it. I tested it the past two times. I went, it's never been low like yours. Like mine, let's see, mine last time was 4 .6. And then before that it was five. I'm normally usually like six or under. I'm trying to remember Dr. Benjamin Beckman. Did you interview him? Have you interviewed him? Dr. Beckman.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, yes. Many times. Yeah. Are you talking about the best range for insulin? Six and below. Six. Okay. That's what I thought. That's the stricter side, which I agree with. Some people go higher than that. I've heard as high as 10. I know Dr. Gary Taubes, he's shown research when it goes above 15 is when people start to really have big issues with managing their weight, etc.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, yeah. So mine, mine's always been under six, which is good. Knock on wood. But yours, I mean, your sounds amazing too. So yes. Okay. Wait, why did I get inspired by that? Somebody said, Oh yeah. Andrea said that she ran her fasting insulin test and how excited her doctor was. So super cool. Um, a few more. So Kathy, 24 is her average. She says some days are a bit longer, some shorter. Mary Ann says 19 five. She opens her window at noon. She's flexible for social occasions and she eats every day. She started in August 2019. And then Arietta said, this is my pattern too. She started IF in August, 2018. I find it so interesting that people are giving like very specific things. And then other people have the same patterns as well. Laura said after years of 18, six, I've adopted a more flexible fasting schedule, intuitive eating, I guess putting on muscle requires me to eat more often, but my body can slip back into fasting on days. I feel the need. Oh, before I keep going, we did that teaser for the CGMs. We are going to talk about it next episode. I'm so excited because Vanessa has a lot of experience using them recently. Holly said I used to do a lot of 18, six, 19, five. I got a CGM and figured out my blood sugar spiked too much no matter what she ate, breaking her fast, switched to a short 12 to 14 hour fast and my blood sugar remains steady and I've lost weight and body fat. Tracking macros has also been key and I never eat after 7 p .m. So listeners can go to Nutrisense.com/IF podcast and use the coupon code IF podcast and that will get you $50 off a CGM. We love CGMs. Listen next week because we're going to talk some more about it. That's so interesting. So that's an example where she was fasting longer and then she found that by fasting shorter, it helped her blood sugar and I would wonder is it the fasting shorter or is it that when she fasted shorter, maybe it changed how she was eating and that had the effect, the different effect on the CGM. Do you have thoughts on that, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's hard to say. I mean, I say definitely if you are fasting, we know that's lowering insulin and making you more insulin sensitive, and you should notice a better recovery from your meals and things with the fasting. But I'm not sure how having a shorter fasting period would increase the insulin sensitivity. Do you know what that might like? I don't know what mechanism that would be. But sometimes you see results on the CGM that are sort of counterintuitive. You'll expect something to make your blood glucose rise and it will actually do the opposite. So there's a lot more I think happening than we actually fully understand, even though you have an app and it sort of is giving you interpretations and things. But typically, I would say a longer fast would make you more insulin sensitive. But again, so many things are bio individual. So it could be that that's just what works best for you.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I agree. Like I, I would doubt it would be the actual fasting shorter that is creating the change. I would think it's probably maybe when you were fasting longer, you were, it could may or may not be something like this. I'm just putting it out there. Some people if they're fasting longer, maybe they overcompensate with eating and they eat more than they would have. And they have like a higher glycemic load in the, in the meal that they're eating than compared to when they, when they fast shorter, maybe they're eating, just eating less. I think that could happen probably with a lot of people.

Vanessa Spina:
I think that's a really good point. Oftentimes, if you fast for too long, then, you know, you might start wanting or thinking that you need more food than you do. And then you could maybe overeat or overcompensate. Whereas if you are doing more meals or something, then you won't be eating as much. I think that's a really good point.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So some more. So Becca, she says ADF works great for me. She did 19 .5, 22 .2 and one meal a day, but now she's doing ADF and it works wonderful. So ADF for listeners, it's alternate day fasting and it's not really intuitive based on the naming, but basically it's usually where two days a week, you either fast completely and so like you don't eat those days or you eat up to like 500 calories. Sunny said after six years, I believe I am now in the eating window phase of the journey. Clean fast, 16 .8, no fuss, no muss. I love that and I love Sunny. She's been, she's like one of the original like people in my Facebook group from the very beginning. It's so weird to think that there was a time when the Facebook group, like when I started it, that's crazy to think about. Okay. Angie said, I started IF four or five years ago. I'm type two diabetic. My A1C used to fluctuate between six to seven. I'm proud to say for the past four years, my A1C is between 4 .8 to 5 .3. Some medication has been removed altogether and my metformin has been reduced to a small dose. I do one meal a day on weekends to switch things up. I have made this lifestyle for health benefits and any weight loss is a bonus. That is awesome. I love hearing that. Tabitha says, I have done IF for four and a half years now. First two years, I was one meal a day, 24. I lost 75 pounds. The third year I tried other IF protocols due to being peri -menopausal and listening to advice on fasting for hormones. I didn't like any of those and I slowly gained some weight. February, 2024, I went back to my original one meal a day plan with one day a week of 18, six, and I feel my best with this pattern. I like what she said there because, you know, we talked about it before on a prior episode, actually a lot of episodes, but there are a lot of recommendations to adjust fasting for your cycle and especially like your peri -menopause years. And for some people, that works really, really well. And for some people, it doesn't. They just like, you know, like doing what they normally do. And so that was the experience with Tabitha and I think that's just good motivation because I think it can be scary to try different things. So I think it's good to know that you can always try different things. And if they don't work, you don't have to do them. Like nobody's forcing you to do anything, which is really awesome. Like you have so much freedom in trying different things and finding what works for you. Kelly said, since I had my third baby at 43 and really started looking after my health, I've been intermittent fasting. So it's been seven years, but I've been doing it longer for 14 years. I would stop eating around seven at the latest and break my fast midday. I breastfed my baby for two and a half years. Even went to Thailand when she was one and a half, thinking that was long enough. I detox and fasted for nine days, expressing all my milk and felt so incomplete, wanting to continue to feed her. I put her back on and fed for another year. Just amazing. I do three day water fasts every three months and attend a annually. I'm due for my second one this summer. The autophagy process is so powerful. Alexander said 16, eight every single day. Often longer fasts really helped me lose 15 pounds and keep them off. It gives my body a break, makes me fat adapted. I think it made me get sick less and recover faster. Amy does anywhere from 16 to 18 hours fast on average. She started five years ago. She lost 20 pounds and she's maintained and she breaks her fast with two servings of perfect aminos. We have just a few more. So Terry, 16, eight, she started in 2021. She's 61. She opens her window from one to three p .m. However, this can cause trouble because I can snack too much after dinner, which has always been her weakness. On days that I get enough protein, it's easier to make better food choices after dinner. I'm considering getting a CGM to highlight the effects of food choices and timing, mainly to improve my sleep and overall health. My fasting insulin and weight are normal. I love the freedom and energy levels. Anna wanted to know, has anyone tried the fasting mimicking diet for five days? Just curious about the health benefits. I've heard it gives you a great reset. I forgot, Vanessa, have you tried the fasting mimicking diet? No. Yeah, I tried for like a day.

Vanessa Spina:
I think it's interesting for people who don't want to fast or can't fully fast. I think there probably should be something out there for people that is more accessible. I've heard it's sort of something that becomes popular in places where everyone is always excited about the latest fast, you know, the latest thing. But personally, I just think, you know, just fast, like fasting. You know, we talk about how the definitions of fasting or there's no consensus. To me, fasting is just not eating, just nothing, but I do understand the science behind it and the fact that lower protein intakes do have some effects. I just don't think that they necessarily should be extrapolated to humans because most of them have been done on rodents, on animal models that I don't think are comparable enough to us, and I think it's more important to get the protein in than to go doing these low protein diets, but it's just a personal opinion. So for me, if I'm going to fast, I'm just going to fast. Maybe here and there, throw in a low protein date if you want to, but the concept of that prolon fast, for me, I know would be, I would be starving, I would be thinking about food because I need protein to feel full and not think about food because my body every day, just like every other human, has to get protein. It's the one essential macronutrient that our bodies cannot synthesize on its own, and I would argue that even the quote unquote non -essential amino acids are essential, but that's a whole other podcast, so your body has to get protein every single day from external sources, and if it doesn't, then you will be getting it from your own sources, and your body is always going to need to keep and prefers to keep your vital organs that keep you alive over your muscle tissue, your skeletal muscle, things that are hard to put on, things that are hard to grow, so yeah, sorry, I'm going on a rant, a simple question, but I am really not a fan of it, so I think I get a little triggered when I hear it.

Melanie Avalon:
I almost wonder if, because I was talking earlier about how Peter Tia seems like he's such a fan of fasting and then like not at the same time, I don't know, he seems to have concerns about it. And I almost wonder if it's because he did so many, he always talks about how he went through a period of time where he was doing, like he was doing a lot of extended water fasts. And I wonder if like the muscle loss from that kind of carried over to his perspective of fasting, because he always goes on and on about fasting and being worried about muscle loss and how women need to have like a protein shake during their fast, which to me seems counterintuitive to have like eat food during your fast. But I wonder if it speaks to what you were talking about with these longer fasts and not getting the protein.

Vanessa Spina:
I just like let's call it what it is. It's a low calorie diet. It's a low calorie diet plan. But it's being called fasting mimicking or whatever, because it's trendy. And it makes people feel like they're fasting, but they're not they're on a low calorie diet. So I don't like that the term is being borrowed or used incorrectly. Because to me, it's just not fasting. It's, it's a low calorie diet, we all know what low calorie diets do. And especially ones that are devoid of protein. So when you look at it through the lens of a low calorie diet, with barely any protein in it, does that sound healthy? No, but when you call it fasting mimicking or fasting, whatever, then it gives it this halo effect that it's healthy. But I really don't think it's a good idea.

Melanie Avalon:
So I personally would find it very difficult to do. Like I said, I do think because I know the purpose of it is he basically Dr. Longo identified, I'm trying to remember how many biomarkers of fasting. It was like four, five, a handful of biomarkers that were elevated in fasting. It had to do with ketones and glucose and a few others. He found the dietary protocol that would create those same biomarkers while still allowing intake of these foods. And it was this protocol he came up with that's the fasting mimicking diet prolon and it's really low calorie. I guess what I would say to the... The reason I don't see it as just a low calorie diet is I think a lot of people do a low calorie diet, but they're not doing a prolon severely restricted five days protocol that creates these same fasting biomarkers, at least the ones that he found. I guess I feel like it could be for people who want to do a five day water fast, but some people do find eating that easier. I feel like for me, it spices up my hunger, makes me hungrier. I'd rather just water fast like you were saying. But for some people, I think it does make it easier. So like Nina commented on Anna's comment and she said, she said, I did it with prolon. I'm not sure if it did anything, but it was much easier than normal water fasting. I guess you have to do a pre and post test, but what would you test? I would answer for her the pre and post test. I mean, that would be a good time to do something like an Inside Tracker, like before and after, like their full panel. It sounds harder for me to do. I'd rather just water fast. I can see though the therapeutic benefit and I can also see like for people who, maybe people who have never fasted, who are severely overweight, who could benefit from a longer, lower calorie intense structure thing and they're just intimidated, maybe having the structure of prolon would work for them.

Vanessa Spina:
I do think it has a place, like I said, I think I agree with you. I think there are some people that might find it more accessible potentially. I know there was someone in our group for the podcast that said they did a proline and they use the tone device and their ketones went really high when they were doing it. Oh, that's cool. Cause I never heard anyone ever tested that before. But it makes sense because the protein was so low that they probably got into ketosis on it. Cause you can get into ketosis in so many different ways, even on there's research showing you can get into ketosis, a thousand calorie diet of all carbs. So it's like, it's, it's a state, right? It's a metabolic state, not necessarily a diet. So I do think that there are probably applications for it, but in general, if people want autophagy, I mean, I just interviewed Dr. Tommy Wood and I have a couple other guests who are coming on the podcast to talk about this, but he talks about in humans. If we really look at the human data on research, it's not conclusive that fasting really gives us so much amazing autophagy compared with, for example, exercise. So he said the research does state that doing a 30 minute resistance training workout, lifting weights gives you more autophagy than a three day fast. So between those two, which would you rather do if the science shows conclusively, you're getting the same amount of autophagy.

Melanie Avalon:
That's crazy, right? I didn't know they actually had seen that.

Vanessa Spina:
He's really interesting because I asked him a lot about Dr. Mark Madsen's research and he said, again, so much of the research has not been done on humans. There's a researcher that I'm about to have on the podcast and she's right now putting together some really interesting data on humans with regards to this because a lot of it's been done in the past with rodents, especially when it comes to mitochondrial biogenesis, coming from facet exercise versus fed exercise. It really has to do with how much you are activating your muscle. It's a whole other topic, I know, but you can get so much autophagy just from exercise, from doing resistance training, from lifting weights, and you don't necessarily have to fast for days and days. I think it's just a really key thing to keep in mind when you're considering all these different approaches. Doing extended fast, I think, over 48 hours may have more downside risk if you're over 40, especially, and you are trying to put on more lean mass to keep you healthy in your later years, whereas you could just get as much autophagy from doing some weightlifting.

Melanie Avalon:
That's amazing. I can't wait for the research. And yeah, I think that's a good example of something like one of the myths with fasting because people be like, autophagy is on or off, but autophagy is actually always happening. Fun fact, even at a small level, somewhere everywhere. So it's not, it's not even an on off switch. Yeah. Fascinating. Well, so there are two more comments. I think I'm going to save them for next episode because one of them has things I want to talk about associated with it. So this has been absolutely wonderful. So a few refreshers for listeners from the beginning of the episode, it's summer, it's grilling season. If you want to get a grill to deliciously grill your steaks restaurant quality style, definitely check out shrink grills at shrinkgrills.com with promo code IFpodcast to get $150 off. And then if listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. And then they can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcasts. I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. Oh, and the show notes are at ifpodcasts.com/episode374. And they will have a transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. All right, I think that is all the things anything from you Vanessa before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
I had such a wonderful time and looking forward to the next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too.

Melanie Avalon:
Talk to you then. Talk to you soon. Bye. Bye. 

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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Jun 09

Episode 373: Spirulina & Chlorella, Long Fasts & Cortisol, Fasting Over 40, Resistance Training, Fasting Definitions, Glutathione, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 373 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-fed beef, organic chicken, heritage pork, wild-caught seafood, nutrient-rich, raised sustainably the way nature intended, and shipped straight to your door! For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get bone-in chicken thighs, top sirloins, or salmon—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

Schwank Grill: We love protein, and you can achieve the best grilling with Schwank Grills, featuring state-of-the-art infrared technology used in the world's best steakhouses (including Ruths' Chris and Morton's)! These grill create perfectly seared, steakhouse-worthy results every time. Make every cookout a special occasion with this ultimate grilling experience! Visit schwankgrills.com and use promo code IFPODCAST to get $150 OFF a Schwank Grill!

LUMEN: Lumen is the world’s first handheld metabolic coach: a device that measures your metabolism through your breath, to let you instantly find out if you're burning carbs or fat! The Lumen app also gives you tailored guidance to improve your nutrition, workouts, sleep, and even stress management! If you want to take the next step in improving your health, go to lumen.me and use code IFPODCAST to get 15% off your Lumen!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get bone-in chicken thighs, top sirloins, or salmon—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

SCHWANK GRILL: Visit schwankgrills.com and use promo code IFPODCAST to get $150 OFF a Schwank Grill!

LUMEN: If you want to take the next step in improving your health, go to lumen.me and use code IFPODCAST to get 15% off your Lumen!

Listener Q&A: Andrea - What’s the truth about occasional long fasts (36hrs-48hrs)?

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #126 - Azure Grant

Listener Q&A: Michelle - Does taking glutathione break a fast?

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #171 - Dr. Nayan Patel

Visit MelanieAvalon.com/auro and use the code MelanieAvalon, for 5% off. Also add the code Auro10, for an additional 10% off! 

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 373 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode 373 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. What is new in your life, Vanessa? Well,

Vanessa Spina:
I've been on this high from doing OMAD again, intermittent fasting. That's sort of been the biggest thing. And I'm also excited about some new testing I've been doing on my blood sugar. Those are like the things that excite me right now, but we're going on a fun getaway this weekend with two of my girlfriends here and their husbands and their kids who are the same age as Luca and Damian. We're going to this little, I think I told you about it last summer. We go every summer. It's this little fairy tale place. Yes, with the castles. Yes, it's a UNESCO heritage site and you don't really drive cars in there. So like you can spend the whole weekend there. So we're going with some friends. I'm so excited. And Luca is so excited because he gets to go with like basically his two of his best little buddies here. It was funny because you were asking me, you know, what, like, what did Luca and their friends, you know, what language they speak. And I was going to text you and be like, all my friends here are Americans. All of their kids speak English. Some of them speak like a bit of Czech as well. Like they know some of them no more than others. But yeah, all of my friend group here is pretty much they're all American expats. And then one of them is Australian. All my girlfriends are American. They're just living over here as like expats. So yeah, they all speak English with each other.

Melanie Avalon:
I know by the time this airs, it'll be way in the past, but I'm dying to know, was Luca, so he wasn't scared of the dinosaurs in the dina, in the dino.

Vanessa Spina:
No, it's funny. I was wondering if he was going to be scared. We went to this amazing dino park with all of our friends here and all their kids and the kids had the best time. And it was just, it was a lot of fun. Some of the kids are trying to get into like dinosaurs and stuff. But I thought he might be scared, but he wasn't. And there were a couple of parts. I was like, I'm kind of scared. He wasn't, you know, because they're, you know, huge animatronic dinosaurs and they were moving and like, it was so realistic. But yeah, they weren't scared. And then kind of remembered, like kids don't really have much fear, like maybe when they're older. But at this point, like they don't really, I don't think he really, I was saying to Pete, like, later that day, I was like, I don't think he knows what scared means. No, like, I don't think we've ever talked about that word or I don't think he's had an experience of that yet. So

Melanie Avalon:
That's so interesting. I only have like a few memories of being really scared as a child. The reason I was thinking about it is because I remember, I think my mom took me, do you know Six Flags? I've heard of it. I think my mom took me to Six Flags and I was really, really little. And I think it was around Halloween time and people were dressed up. And apparently I remember like freaking out and I remember us leaving like right at the beginning. So, and I have a distinct memory of being, do you remember when you were taught how to swim? I don't. I have a distinct memory of being taught how to swim and that did not go well. I remember they had to like, they like let us loose. They were like, do the spider crawl and like cling to the, yeah, I just remember thinking I was gonna die. Like my life flashed before my eyes. Yeah, that's really interesting. It makes me wonder what role does fear and parenting and nurture versus nature and, you know, how you react to your kids crying. And I don't know anything about parenting. So this is all me just like mumbling, but I'm really interested in what creates our perspectives of the world and how that is involved in parenting when you're young. Like does Luca cry a lot?

Vanessa Spina:
He has like a lack of emotional regulation, you know, for sure, at some point, but he's a very calm child. And I think a lot of it has to do with his diet and lifestyle. He only eats whole foods, he's never like consumed sugar, he doesn't eat any processed food. And, you know, I think it really contributes a lot to his stable mood, because I know he has very stable blood sugars. From what he eats, so he and we also don't do a lot of screen time. We noticed that screen time and consuming a lot of processed food, I think they both can cause a lot of issues with like tantrums and meltdowns and then combine together, they can also do that. So we just we don't do like restaurants and things like that. The only time that he's allowed to have screen time is if we have a long haul flight, like if we go on the airplane for like a long, like a, you know, 10 hour kind of situation. But otherwise, we just don't give him that. So I think it helps him be quite calm. And that's sort of what people say a lot about him. In general, he's just like an extremely calm child. So hopefully, the same thing will be the same thing with Damien.

Melanie Avalon:
And then you probably have the added benefit, so like on the long flights and stuff, so most kids if they've been consuming that content all the time, it's nothing really special for them. You can't like, you know, give it to them as like a special treat, but for Luca, like he doesn't normally get to do it as much, so I'm guessing that really helps with the long flights.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, but in general, like we we tend to just like do a lot of sticker books and activities even on the plane and he'll sleep.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, sticker books. I lived. I lived for sticker books.

Vanessa Spina:
Did you have a sticker album?

Melanie Avalon:
Do you remember the company Clutz Kids by chance? I think it was called Clutz. Clutz, they had all these different books. They had like science books and like craft books and all these books. They would always be at the grocery store on like a turning, like a, what's it called? The things that like twist around, kind of like when you're getting birthday cards. Like when you're getting birthday cards and they're on the thing that twists. I think it's called a turnstile.

Vanessa Spina:
Turnstile in Canada anyway

Melanie Avalon:
I loved those books and they had this big sticker book and I think I had three three like three or four and like years in a row from traveling like we would get that sticker book and man fun times it would just be like these big crazy things with stickers and you would just create things so much fun. What's new with you? Well related to that a little bit because I'm just thinking how much gratitude I have for people like you raising kids with that diet and you know the effects that it has on their health and the health of our future and I'm reading right now Dr. Michael Greger's book newest book are you familiar with dr. Greger? Yeah

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, but I haven't heard the most flattering things, probably from Dr. Sean Baker, and I think they kind of have a bit of an antagonistic...

Melanie Avalon:
situation? Yeah. So, um, he's probably one of the most famous vegan researcher advocates. I mean, he's up there. I'm like, I've been reading his work for, I mean, years and years. His books are so long, but what's interesting about it is he does so much research. So it's very persuasive, everything he says, because there are so many studies and I really respect him for that. I know it takes a lot of time. I'm very, I mean, I'm kind of mind blown that I'm going to be interviewing him because I've been following his work for so long, but there are so many questions I want to ask him when I interview him. I just want to ask him all the counter arguments to the typical vegan arguments about the role of animal protein and stuff and diet. And the way this all relates to what we were just talking about is because he makes so many arguments that the majority of health issues and problems are because of animal protein intake or meat, dairy, things like that. I just find it so interesting that if you look at the history of us, like humans, and even relatively recent, I'm just thinking like pre, so like pre -processed food industry, like we were eating meat, so that's not what changed. What changed was these processed foods, like that's what changed. And I find it really interesting that meat, especially in the vegan world, gets so demonized as the problem when maybe it's not that, like maybe it's the processed foods. And the reason I was thinking about it was what you're talking about with not giving, you know, not feeding your kids all these processed foods. Yeah, this interview, that was going to be really intense. Oh my goodness.

Vanessa Spina:
I just interviewed Dr. Vera Tarmen. I was mentioning it last episode, but I absolutely love her. And she's, you know, a medical doctor who's specialized in addictions. And she wrote Food Junkies. I don't know if you read that book. I haven't. It's amazing. She talks about how these ultra -processed foods, they generate levels of dopamine. And she talks about the units of dopamine that they release. And she talks about, like, how our physiology is adapted to having, say, like, 100, 200 units of dopamine, maybe 250 on, like, your wedding day or graduation, like, these special peak events where you have just such ecstatic feelings. And the processed foods give us these units of dopamine, like, cocaine, where you get, like, 400, 300, 400 units of dopamine. And it's so much that your body's not designed to be able to cope with that. And she talks about what happens to the receptors, and you get this up -regulation, down -regulation of the receptor sites. And basically how this processed food is, it's like any other drug, and how we have to start thinking of it as drug -like food. And I was talking to her about children, and I told her about what we do with our kids. And I'm like, sometimes I worry that I'm being too strict about it. And she said, but if you were talking about cigarettes, would you be like, I'm worried I'm being too strict by not letting Luca have cigarettes or not letting him have cocaine? I'm like, yeah, it sounds insane, right? But we do have to start reclassifying some of these foods because of the way they act on our body. Our bodies is so physiologically, you can actually measure it, what's happening, you know, to the body and how it affects the brain and how it creates this addictive pattern. And I also asked her, do you think that the standard American diet is basically creating food addicts? And she said, absolutely, because there's no way that you can meet those carb requirements without eating processed food. And that was my experience when I was vegetarian and vegan. In order for me to feel satisfied at the end of the day, I had to eat some processed food. You just can't only eat so much broccoli and cucumbers and whatever if you're not eating protein, like meat based protein, you can only eat so much tofu, like, eventually, you're gonna have to have some highly processed food. I do think we need to think of that food differently. And it would be very hard for me to interview someone like him because I feel like they're putting out harmful information. But I have to admire the fact that you're able to talk to people like that, who have such opposing points of view. And, you know, be able to admire their research and their work and everything. I remember Dr. Ted Neiman always says that there's like this U -shaped curve, where you really do well with, you know, optimal protein. And on the other side, eating very, very, very low protein can create also like a lot of I guess he was talking about maybe in the context of fat loss or something. But based on everything I've learned about body composition, and how I was when I was eating that way, like, I think you can lose a lot of weight, but I don't think it's all necessarily high quality weight loss.

Melanie Avalon:
I mean, I feel obviously very similar and part of me wonders because I've made a really conscious decision with the show to bring on people of completely different opinions. And I do because you were mentioning about him putting out false information and stuff and I do think about that sometimes and like am I like giving a platform to things I don't agree with? So it's like a fine line of, I think about this a lot, but I really do want to bring on people like that because I really want to hear what they have to say to what I am wondering or curious about or questioning about what they say. Like I want to know like what their answer is respectfully. So it's an exciting opportunity to interview them. It's going to be intense though. If I ever finish the book, the audiobook is like 20 hours, which is a long time, so we shall see. Okay. I will just give one little quick update. Hopefully by the time this comes out, hopefully, I think my third podcast should have launched because we're planning to launch it at the beginning of June. So hopefully the Mind Blown podcast is out there, friends and listeners. So check that out. As well, hopefully the spirit, my spirulina supplement should be coming out. We're figuring out the launch date right now. So we're hoping for beginning of July. So those are my updates. Any other updates or shall we jump into some things?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that sounds very exciting. I'm really excited to try your spirulina because I'm obsessed with it. I got Luca taking it every day with me. Yeah. And it's so cute because I call it the medicine because he had this whole thing where like Damien was getting medicine and he wanted medicines. I was like, you can have some medicine too. So every night, usually before I go to bed, I have chlorella and he's like, I want some medicine. So he comes, like sits on the counter with me and I usually give him two. So Catherine Anderson said, you can give them one tablet for every year of how old they are. So soon he'll be able to have three, but he has two spirulina tablets and he just crunches them up and he just eats them and he loves it. And it's so, it's great because I know he's getting, you know, such incredible nourishment from that in terms of the plant foods that we don't eat as much of, which is like also what makes me feel really good about taking it. And I know he doesn't need all the antioxidants as much, but he's just getting so much from it. And I just love like, it's our thing at the end of the day, like after this podcast, you know, I'll probably go and we'll go have our medicine. It's so cute. And she said, you know, one tablet is equivalent to the nutrients in one pound of vegetables or something. So, you know, as a parent, it makes me feel so good that he's having it.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, first of all, that's like the cutest thing ever, the medicine, that's so cute. I was just sitting here smiling, oh my, giving him his medicine. Oh my goodness, that's adorable. I wonder why Catherine says there's a limit for that amount. I'm actually right now, we're signing off on the bag and everything. So I got the, I was like looking at the supplement facts on the back of the bag. It's shocking, the amount of nutrition and spirulina. So I'll just like tell listeners really quickly, for us, 30 tablets is a serving. I think energy, but that's the same serving size for them. So it's like, if you know energy bits, it's one of their single serving packets. That's what's considered a serving. So just that, well, it has four grams of protein, but it's a complete amino acid profile. So it has a hundred percent of your vitamin K, 27% of your B2, let's see, 3% B1, 6% B3, 3% B6, 625% of your B12, which is amazing, especially for people on plant -based diets, because those are typically lacking B12, but you can get that from spirulina and chlorella, has 53% of your iron, which is crazy to me. And chlorella, I think has even more. We will be launching a chlorella as well. But some other ones, like 86% of your chromium, has 8% of your magnesium, 8% selenium. It's just, it's crazy how rich it is. And then it also has, like you mentioned the antioxidants, it has these like random things like superoxide dismutase and has glutathione in it and GLA. So it really is like, I don't like the term superfood, but if I were to nominate a superfood for the superfood awards, I'd probably nominate spirulina, chlorella, they'd be up there. So yeah, it's exciting. I can't wait to send it to you.

Vanessa Spina:
you I can't wait to try yours and yeah I'd specifically take the chlorella because it has the K2 and I was low on K2 postpartum and also it helps boost Damien's K2 through breast milk because I have to give him K vitamin K drops every week so you have to do that for newborns if you choose not to get the shot after they're born so I always take the chlorella at night also because Katherine said it was amazing for detoxification and so I usually take the I take the spirulina when I open my fasting window I don't have it during the day because I don't consider it to be clean fast friendly even though that's been said but it has protein in it so I treat it as a superfood as you have protein superfood so I always have the spirulina at the start of my window and I have the chlorella right before bed and it helps a lot with detoxification pulling toxins out of your stored tissues and helping you excrete them by binding to them because of that hard cell wall

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's amazing for that. Now I'm, because I'm looking at our supplement facts, so like I said, it has 100% of vitamin K. I'll have to check if that's the K2 form. I'm assuming it is.

Vanessa Spina:
The spirulina has K, but the chlorella has a K2 from energy bits, but I'm not sure what it is with yours.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm making a note of this to research this so thank you because that's something I really I want to know personally so thank you

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, K2 really helps with blood clotting, which can be an issue postpartum, and it's a vitamin that I was lower in. You can also get it from an egg, just like you can get the B12 and choline and stuff. But if you're vegan, you're not getting eggs, or if you're not eating eggs every day, then it's really helpful. But for me, it's replaced, spirulina and chlorella have replaced my multivitamin. I mean, you look at the breakdown like it really can. It's not just a multivitamin, it also replaced my cookie tin. It also replaced something else, the fish oil, because it has an omega -6 that is considered. It acts in the body like an omega -3. And I think there's one other thing. So you can really save a lot by switching out several supplements for spirulina and chlorella. And I'm not someone who likes to take a lot of stuff. So for me, just taking one thing, I like to just take one or two things. And I feel like everyone in the world should be taking spirulina and chlorella daily.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, I need a sound clip of that.

Vanessa Spina:
Especially because of the phycocyanin, it kills cancer cells in in petri dishes and it's what's used in chemotherapy. They use phycocyanin and it's basically found in really high concentration in, I think it's in the spirulina, not the chlorella, I think it's in the spirulina. But they're both so amazing to take. I really feel like everyone in the world should be taking it. I'm trying to get my parents to take it next.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, I can't wait to send you mine. And what I love about it as well is you're getting all of these vitamins and these nutrients in their real food form, like not synthetic. I just feel like they're so much better absorbed by the body. Yeah, and yours is raw, I'm assuming. Yes, it's not, yeah, heat treated.

Vanessa Spina:
I think you said last time you were taking, I was mentioning I take about seven grams of each, which is about 30 tablets of each, and you said you were doing like double that.

Melanie Avalon:
Mm -hmm. I usually do about double that.

Vanessa Spina:
Is it just like for just getting more?

Melanie Avalon:
I just love it. It's like that time. I just love eating it and that's like intuitively what feels like the right amount for me in my big, you know, one meal a day situation. Obviously you have it in your eating window.

Vanessa Spina:
Mmhmm.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. And I'm excited because I like the way, I know some people don't like the taste. If so, you can swallow it. You can crush it and add it to foods. I just put it in my smoothie.

Vanessa Spina:
sometimes.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, yeah, that's a great way to do it

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, it also replaces a green. Sorry, if you're someone who has traditionally taken like a greens supplement, it also replaces your greens. Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so amazing. I'm so happy you understand.

Vanessa Spina:
It's like mana from heaven. It doesn't even make sense that this exists and that when you actually look at the breakdown of what's in it, it looks like it was godsend. It's incredible.

Melanie Avalon:
No, it's so funny because like, that's the way I've been feeling about it. But then when I finally got back the supplement fact label for our bag, I was on the phone with Scott and I was looking at it. I was like, is this right? I was like 625% of your B12, 53% of your iron. So then I was like going to chat GPT and I was like fact checking everything. And yep, it's accurate.

Vanessa Spina:
And the superoxide dismutase, I mean, there's lots of antioxidants and there's glutathione. I think there's superoxide dismutase and there's one other with the C. What is it?

Melanie Avalon:
Would it have been the, in chlorella there's nucleic acids? Yes. Was that the one? No.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay. There's chlorophyll. Maybe it's chlorophyll I'm thinking of. Because chlorophyll, I think there's one, no, it's one other antioxidant. Superoxide is glutathione and it's probably going to come to me later. But what's amazing is, you know, our, we make superoxide dismutase in our bodies. Like my children make it. And we make it, I think, until the age of 30. And then our endogenous supply of antioxidants goes way down after the age of 30, which explains why people start really aging after the age of 30. So if I could go back in time, I would have been starting to take this when I turned 29. But I love taking it now because I know that it's like, it's helping support so much free radical damage and buffer that, but superoxide is a crazy free radical. It's like got three unpaired electrons and causes so much damage to your mitochondria. I think it's one of the only antioxidants that gets inside the inner membrane of the mitochondria and helps protect it.

Melanie Avalon:
This is so amazing. I really can't wait to send it to you. Oh my goodness.

Vanessa Spina:
I can't wait to try yours and I can't wait to see the packaging, the mermaid.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, the mermaid essence. She came together, she pulled through. Yeah, I'm really, really excited about it. And it took us so long to find a source. And I'm obsessed with the source where we found. It's in Hawaii and they only use like the best practices and they're really sustainable. And I'm just really, really excited about it. And then we third party tested it ourselves to make sure it's completely free of pesticides. And we tested for heavy metals and all the things. So because it doesn't have an organic certification, but that's a label that means certain things. So I know that if I can go and check all the things that organic would mean, I feel good about it, if that makes sense. So like I know the raising practices and then I went and tested for all the toxins and things that the organic labels should supposedly protect against. So I know it's up to those standards. So I'm really, really excited about it. So for listeners, if you'd like to get the special launch special, cause we're gonna do a really great launch special for it, definitely make sure you're on my email list. So that is at avalonx.us/emaillist. And you can also get text updates. If you text AVALONX to 877 -861 -8318, that's Avalonx and I'm gonna spell it because all the texts we get are often not this A -V -A -L -O -N -X. We get everything and I'm like, nope, that's not. And I can't like add people. So you have to text that keyword to get added to that list. So yeah, very, very excited. Shall we jump into some fasting things? Sounds great. So to start things off, we have some great questions about longer fasts. We're excited about this because I have some studies and some thoughts and then it's gonna tie into something that we teased about last week if you listened to that episode. So this should be fun. So we have a question from Andrea. This is actually from my Facebook group. So you can join my Facebook group. It's called IF Biohackers and I often will ask for questions in there. And so Andrea asked, what's the truth about occasional long fasts like 36 to 48 hours? I've heard it's great for you if you're fat adapted, keep electrolytes up and eat hearty following the fast. I've also heard it's terrible because it stresses your body too much. I go with what feels good to me, but what are the real facts? And then some other people chimed into that. So Maris said, I would like to know this as well because I do two of them each week. And Kimmy said, I'd like to know more about this also. I've been fasting almost four years and have only done a few 24 hour fasts. I can go longer with no problem at all, but is it too much stress on my 55 year old body?

Vanessa Spina:
It is true that fasting can raise cortisol levels in many people. And so in terms of what we hear of it stressing the body too much, I think that it can be one of those things where if someone already has a very high stress load and maybe already high cortisol, that could be a situation where it could be adding potentially too much stress. However, I think that intermittent fasting and fasting in general also has a hermetic effect, which is similar to the hormesis that we have when we build muscles, we stress our muscles. And that stress is a eustress, it's a positive stress because it makes our muscles stronger when they recover and repair and it makes them bigger and we build stronger, better muscles. So in that same sense, intermittent fasting and even longer fasting, I think can also provide some hormesis where it can actually make us stronger. You know, it can help us sometimes deal with other stresses in our life. And that's sort of a very inter, like person bio individual thing, I would say. Some people may have, you know, the feeling that it stresses them out too much. There's also psychological aspects to it. Whereas if you believe it's gonna stress you or stress your body then, and you firmly believe that, then it's gonna be a stressful experience. You might be white knuckling it through it. You really have to check in with yourself and see how you feel personally. Doing it, do you feel? Like I was talking about the last episode, when I got back into doing it, I felt boundless energy. I felt my little sparks of joy coming back throughout the day. I felt like myself again, I felt like I had way more time way more energy to go do things. I found myself with much enhanced cognition, wanting to listen to more interesting complex things instead of just sort of feeling more sluggish and lethargic when I'm in that fed state, more of the day and wanting more entertainment and less sort of cognitively stimulating things. So for me, I notice right now in my life, it's a really good thing. Maybe at other times it would be more of a stressor. So it's bio individual. It also depends on what's going on currently in your life. And we do know physiologically it can raise cortisol levels in people it tends to, but that can either be a good or a bad thing for you. So I just wanted to make that comment before you talked about the research. And then I have another comment later about the effect on muscle.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Thank you. And yeah, I agree so much. I mean, it's a theme of the show is that it's very, you have to find what works for you, especially when it comes to these longer fasts, like they're asking about. I do think I don't want to make blanket statements, but in general, I think with time restricted eating, intermittent fasting that's happening within a day, so not longer than a day, I really think most people can adapt to that and find a pattern that will work for them. With these longer fasts, Andre, I was asking about 36 to 48 hours and I know people often wonder about even longer fasts than that. I definitely think some intuition comes into play and you have to find what works for you. And I did find a really interesting review article. This is actually from May 2024, although it was originally published June 2023, but still for the public, I guess, May 2024, which is very recent. And it's called efficacy and safety of prolonged water fasting, a narrative review of human trials. So it was actually looking to summarize the effects of these longer fasts in people. And so these fasts were five days or more, which is longer than what the listeners were asking about. But I do think it can look at a lot of good mechanisms and definitely things that people might experience in longer fasting, like when you're really getting there, like the five days. And so for that, they found that five to 20 days of fasting increased circulating ketones. It led to mild to moderate weight loss of two to 10%. But that approximately two -thirds of that weight loss was muscle and only one -third was fat. But again, this is a five -day water fast or longer. They said the excessive lean mass loss, I'm quoting from the study, suggests that prolonged fasting may increase the breakdown of muscle proteins, which is a concern. For other health benefits, they found that blood pressure consistently decreased with the fasting. There was mixed findings on cholesterol panels and plasma lipid panels. So they found decreases in cholesterol and triglycerides in some studies, but others didn't find that. As far as their fasting glucose, fasting insulin, insulin resistance, and HbA1c, which is considered to be a marker of longer -term blood sugar based on glycated hemoglobin from high blood sugar levels. And hemoglobin has a turnover rate half -life of three months. So it's typically seen as a three -month marker of your blood sugar status. So that was in people with normal blood sugar levels. Interestingly, for people who had type 1 or type 2 diabetes, they didn't find those changes. I thought that was really interesting. They also looked at the effects of refeeding in a few of the trials, and they found this is also really interesting. So three to four months after people did these longer fasts, the metabolic benefits, so the weight loss could have, like, in some of the trials and some of the people was maintained, but the metabolic benefits weren't. And that actually doesn't surprise me, I can circle back to that. As far as negative side effects they found, they found metabolic acidosis, and this is not in everybody, but they just found these metabolic acidosis, headaches, insomnia, and hunger in some studies. Their conclusion was that prolonged fasting appears to be a moderately safe dietary therapy that can produce clinically significant weight loss over a few days or weeks. However, the ability of these protocols to produce sustained improvements and metabolic markers warrants further investigation. So a few comments I will have there, and again, I want to clarify, super clarify, because I know the question was about shorter fasts in this, and this is talking about five to 20 day fasts. The point about the metabolic benefits not being maintained, I find really interesting but not surprising. So basically what it says to me is, you know, the weight loss can be maintained because you literally lost weight. But these metabolic states that we're in, it's because things that they're measuring, like ketones, blood sugar, insulin resistance, cholesterol, triglycerides, that's not something where you can like set it up and then be good to go if you don't maintain a lifestyle that's supporting that. Like those markers change very fast. Even the cholesterol panels, so even when I interviewed Azure Grant, she was a researcher and she did a lot of work on trials that were involved with ORA ring. I actually was introduced to her through the former CEO at ORA, his name was Harpreet. One of the studies she was on was so fascinating to me and it was they basically checked people's cholesterol panels, like consistently throughout the day for a few days. And the amount of change that they saw, like even within a day, was so interesting. And it really made me like think differently about when you get your cholesterol panels done at, you know, on a blood drop because it's just a transient moment in time. And I remember there was a sentence in that paper saying that for every single participant, at least one marker of their lipid panel went out of range or went into like a problematic range at some point during the day, which is like, and again, that's, you know, that population study. it just goes to show the point of it and how it relates to the study I'm talking about right now is that these things change so fast. And so it's not surprising to me that, you know, you go on this extended water fast and then you see all these beneficial changes. And then if you check three to four months later, really not surprising to me that people don't have those effects anymore, especially if they're not continuing their, any sort of fasting protocol. I find it really interesting though, that even with all of everything that they found on these super long fasts that are longer than these questions that we got asked about, they still concluded with all of that, that it's a moderately safe diet therapy. So if you're looking at fasting even less than that, like 36 to 48 hours, I think the same conclusion would obviously apply to that as well. I will just speak a little bit more to my own thoughts on it. A lot of the fasting proponents and researchers out there, like recently I've been interviewing both Dr. Mindy big advocates of having these longer fasts within a person's protocol, especially for women. I know Dr. Peltz in particular really likes fasting for older women and menopausal women in particular. She thinks it pairs really well with that. And you can check out past episodes because recently we talked a lot about that. We talked a lot about sinking fasting to your cycle, whether or not you should do that. Vanessa and I personally don't really change surrounding our cycles. Well, I do think it can work for a lot of people if that's their cup of tea and works for them. So long story short, my thoughts on this, my thoughts on occasional long fasts. I agree with Andrea. She said, I heard it's great for you if you're fat adapted, keep electrolytes up and eat hearty following the fast. I agree 100% with that. And then her comment about she's heard it's terrible because it stresses your body too much. I think Vanessa did a really good job talking about that, what our perception is surrounding stress. That was a really great analysis what Vanessa gave. And the role of cortisol and a hermetic beneficial stress versus too much stress. And like Vanessa was saying, I think you have to look at your overall dietary stress load bucket. And it's very possible that something that is technically or normally would be a hermetic beneficial stress. If your stress bucket is full to the brim and you're just running on stress hormones and you're emotionally stressed and maybe even under eating or all of the different things, then too much fasting might be too much stress. Because in that context, it's no longer hermetic. It's too much for your body. But then I love what Andrea said. She said she goes with what feels good to her. I agree. Listen to your body. Your body can speak to you about what works best. And so like for Maurice, for example, who's she does two of them each week, if that's working for you and like you're feeling good. I mean, keep on keeping on. And so for Kimmy, for example, who she's been fasting almost four years and she's only done a few 24 hour fasts and she felt like she could go longer with no problem. But she's worried about it being too much stress on her 55 year old body. I personally, again, I'm not a doctor, but I feel like if you feel like you keep going longer with no problem, like try it. And you might see a lot of benefits from it. So Vanessa, what are your thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
I wanted to comment on the concept of fasting being bad for muscle after the age of 40 because Dr. Don Lehman is someone who you know I really look to for a lot of these recommendations and he said if you're past 40 he really doesn't recommend it because he said it can cause too much lean body mass loss or muscle loss and usually it's too difficult at that point to put it back on especially past the age of 40 we don't have the same hormones that we have when we're younger when it's a lot easier to put muscle on and so you know he said it's sort of like you know every day you're losing bricks from a wall you know if you fast you're gonna accelerate that process and then you're not gonna get them back but I heard him say that he considers extended fasting to be over 48 hours and I didn't realize before when he was just talking about fasting that that's what he was qualifying it as so it's interesting because usually when you look at some of the charts you know on on extended fasting you see that it's after three days that the proteolysis or the lysis or breakdown of protein goes way down and you're mostly burning fat after those first three days you actually do break down a lot of protein but some of that is autophagy in the first three days but he says that up to 48 hours he doesn't really consider extended fasting so that means he's saying that up to 48 hours fast are probably fine on your muscle if you're even if you're over 40 so it was a little clarification point I wanted to mention because I think a lot of people have questions about that it's really important I think to do resistance training if maintaining your lean body mass is really important to you and you want to make sure that you're still offering a stimulus to muscle protein synthesis without ingesting protein because that's the other like like you can lift weights or you can eat protein both of those stimulant muscle protein synthesis but if you're not eating and you're doing a fast say up to 48 hours then you want to do some resistance training if you are concerned about not being able to signal muscle protein synthesis that can definitely help with it but I just thought it was interesting I didn't realize that that was what he considered to be sort of that threshold for when you get into the danger zone for losing muscles so seems that under 48 hours is fine according to him if you're over 40 and you don't want to lose muscle mass

Melanie Avalon:
I think one of the primary issues we have in the intermittent fasting world is just how many different words there are for different things and the lack of consensus surrounding definitions. Yes. Especially even intermittent fasting, we call it so many different things, like intermittent fasting, time -restricted eating, time -restricted feeding. And what's really interesting, I find this interesting, because I'll read a lot of books and sometimes they'll go through and they'll define each one of those. And sometimes it'll be a very specific definition. And I'm like, where did that come from? Is that like your definition of that word, you know? Like for example, Megan Ramos in her book, I'd have to look at my notes, but she defined intermittent fasting as I really would have to look. Basically the definitions were just not, they were not what I would have called intermittent fasting or time -restricted feeding. And it was all, I'm really happy that she defined it because that's really helpful for reading her book. It's like, okay, so when I read her book and I hear what she says, I'll know what she's referring to. So I think it's great that she does that. And she's definitely has her definition for it. I just think it's a big problem for the intermittent fasting world at large that we don't agree on these definitions. Like somebody needs to like step up and like, I don't know, to find them.

Vanessa Spina:
It's one of my biggest frustrations, especially when you're reading research. And you and I have talked about that, the study will say intermittent fasting and it's not, it's something completely different. And just the fact that there is no consensus is, I think it, yeah, it's definitely needs some clarification. Although it's interesting, when I was interviewing Dr. Sachin Panda who basically put time restricted feeding on the map, he says they're basically the same, like he had a definition for it. You could do intermittent fasting in some ways without having the same like time restricted eating pattern. Like for him, it's really about the patterns, but yeah, it would really serve us to have just a little bit more consensus on these definitions.

Melanie Avalon:
or even like ADF, for example, alternate day fasting, I feel like there's two pretty accepted versions of that. And in one version, you don't need anything on the fasting day. And in the other version, you eat like up to 500 calories, which I just feel like is very different signaling if you're not eating at all versus eating some. Or for example, like the ones where it's intermittent fasting but then they're like consuming stuff, but it's fasting.

Vanessa Spina:
That drives me crazy. That's what I was thinking of when we were, you know, talking, you know, because I mean, people get excited about like new studies, you know, in this area. And then even when you talk to the study author and you're like, why did you call this intermittent fasting when it's caloric restriction? And it seems like some people, even though they've been working in the field for a long time, they don't really either they, they don't know there's a difference, which is concerning, or they do know, and they don't care, which is like also

Melanie Avalon:
It's just confusing. So I'm looking through my Megan Ramos notes to see what... Yeah, I want to know what the definition was. My notes that I have, so she considered time -restricted eating is certain hours. It's not intermittent fasting. They're different things. Like she recommends time -restricted eating on days that you're not fasting. So they're like completely different. And I'm trying to remember what she said about what intermittent fasting was, but I don't think I have it in my notes. But yeah, so definitions friends, definitions. Yeah. Do you think we adequately answered that question?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think so from all angles. I think from the stress perspective, you know, and that bio individuality and then the length of the fast and then concerns with muscle loss. And I think that that's probably a lot of what our listeners in this community are concerned with. So yeah, I think so.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome, I think we can briefly answer one last question. Super short, and it's from Michelle. She wants to know, does taking glutathione break a fast? I can answer this, or do you have thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
My answer is yes. I mean, because it is basically made up of three different amino acids, so I would definitely keep it in the eating window.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Okay. So my thoughts, I would agree. I will say though to comment on this, because I think a lot of people take oral glutathione. And ever since I interviewed Dr. Nayan Patel, he has a company called Auro Wellness. He has a really fascinating book about glutathione, like I learned more about glutathione than I ever thought I could learn. And he makes a really good case that taking oral glutathione supplements, they realistically do not get into your cells. It just goes through your bloodstream. Even IV glutathione doesn't get into your cells. It just goes through your bloodstream. So I really encourage people not to take oral glutathione supplements anyways. I know they're expensive, and I encourage people not to take IV glutathione. It's very, very temporary and transient. And I also talked to my friend James Clement about that, because I really, really trust him. He does a lot of longevity -related lab work. I had him on my show for a book called The Switch years and years ago, and we became buddies. I love him. I'm just laughing, because I tried to convince him to go with me to the Veronica's concert, because he loves the Veronica's. But in any case, back to the glutathione. So Dr. Patel makes a transdermal glutathione, and they have studies showing that it actually gets into the cell. I love this stuff. I use it all the time, especially after a night out, you know, drinking a bit of wine. So for that, you can go to MelanieAvalon.com/auro. So A -U -R -O. And you can actually bulk up their, I didn't realize this until, because I post about them all the time on Instagram, and they sent me a DM this week. And they said, you guys can actually be doubling up your coupon codes, which is amazing. So you can get 15% off if you double up the codes. So use the code MelanieAvalon, that will get you 5%. And then also add the code Auro10, A -U -R -O -10, that will get you 10%. So then you'll get 15% off. So definitely take advantage of that. And the reason I love this is because it completely avoids the question of does it break your fast, because you are doing it transdermally, you're putting it on your skin. So there's not even the worry of it breaking your fast. So that is my answer to that question. All right, anything else, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I loved all of these topics on this episode on the last one. I can't wait for more. I just love all the great questions that we get and it's so much fun to chat about these studies with you.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too. I really I love that we love all the same things. It's so amazing. So thank you to all the listeners for being here. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com. You can submit questions there. You can get the show notes at ifpodcast.com/episode373. Those show notes will have a full transcript and have links to everything that we talked about. So that will be super helpful. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @MelanieAvalon. Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think so. I had such a great time and can't wait to record with you next week.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too. Thank you so much. I will talk to you next week. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye. 

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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Jun 02

Episode 372: Returning To Intermittent Fasting, *New* Protein Study, Post-Exercise Muscle Synthesis, Instagram Vs. TikTok, Bodybuilding, Fat Loss, Skeletal Muscle Metabolism, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 372 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

WILD HEALTH: Wild Health provides lab work and genetic testing, combined with biometric and lifestyle data, to help you determine what your body needs for health and longevity! Wild Health provides comprehensive cardiovascular disease risk, methylation, insulin resistance, and hormonal panels, as well as genetic data, personal guidance, and so much more! Get 20% off a wild health membership with the code IFPODCAST at wildhealth.com/ifpodcast!

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any drink mix purchase!

SEED: This episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you in part by Seed. Seed's DS-01 Daily Synbiotic is a 2-in-1 prebiotic and probiotic formulated to support gut health, skin health, and overall well-being. With clinically and scientifically studied strains, Seed's Daily Synbiotic promotes digestive health, boosts immune function, and enhances your body's nutrient absorption. Start your journey to a healthier you with Seed's innovative and effective synbiotic formula. Go to Seed.com/IFPODCAST and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

WILD HEALTH: Get 20% off a wild health membership with the code IFPODCAST at wildhealth.com/ifpodcast!

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any drink mix purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

SEED: Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

The anabolic response to protein ingestion during recovery from exercise has no upper limit in magnitude and duration in vivo in humans

How to preserve muscle while trying to lose body fat | Peter Attia and Luc van Loon

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 372 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode #372 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hello, everyone. How is everything in your life, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
It's really wonderful. How are things with you?

Melanie Avalon:
Good. Did you hear about the Beautycounter drama? No, what drama? Oh, okay. So this is an announcement for listeners because I know they know that I'm a major fan of Beautycounter because they make the most amazing skincare makeup products. So long story short, the original founder, her name is Greg Renfrew and she's absolutely amazing. And she founded that company with a mission to, you know, make safe skincare makeup because skin, conventional skincare makeup is just full of endocrine disruptors and all these problematic compounds that affect our health and wellness and even can affect our weight loss, which we've talked about on the show because a lot of them, this is just a side note educational piece. They are known as obesogens, which actually literally cause our bodies to store and gain weight. Point being, I don't know the timeline, but probably around two years ago, a few years ago, the company got bought by a larger company called Carlisle. They took over, they thought it was going to be all good things. And then they sort of forced Greg out of the company. So she left the company and then they asked her to come back because they were scrambling and she came back. And apparently when she came back, it was just a mess financially with the financial decisions they had made. So they actually had to foreclose and she sort of bought it back. They liquidated the company and she purchased assets so she can buy it back, like buy pieces of the brand back and relaunch it as her own brand again, which is amazing. But basically, they thought it was going to be like a really quick transition, like Beautycounter was going to foreclose and then be right back with Greg. But it's taking as legal things take way longer than they thought. So it's gone until they said hopefully fall of this year, so fall 2024. I'm just so upset because I need these products. But in the meantime, for listeners and friends, you can get the products at Ulta. So they're going to be in stores at Ulta through July and then online at Ulta after that. And I still have a lot of products. It's not like I'm selling them or anything like that individually, but I will be doing giveaways and giving them out and things like that. So still get on my Clean Beauty email list so that you can get those giveaways from me and also that you can get all the information about when the new company launches. So that is at MelanieAvalon.com/cleanbeauty. I'll give text updates. If you text Beautycounter to 877 -861 -8318. So that's 877 -861 -8318. By the way, you can also text the code word AvalonX to that text at the same time or in a separate text and you'll get my supplement updates. But yeah, it's really sad because you know when you find products that you really, really love, and I don't know what I'm going to do if I don't know. I stocked up on Ulta. I bought all the things. But yeah, so that's the update there.

Vanessa Spina:
Wow, that's crazy. I had heard something or saw something maybe about the former owner buying it back, but I had no idea it was that wild. I mean, that's, yeah, that's a lot. So it's amazing that they were able to even get it into another store temporarily, but I hate that feeling when you love something and then they discontinue it. That happens to me so much when I have a favorite lip color or something. I'll go back to buy more of it and they're like, it's discontinued. Why? Why do you do this?

Melanie Avalon:
The worst is when it's your foundation color. That's happened to me before.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, yeah, that's stuff to replace.

Melanie Avalon:
I also feel like it's interesting. I feel like this happens a lot with businesses, where somebody founds a company and then it gets, you know, like taken over by other interests and then they get kicked out. I feel like I keep seeing this happening. Like it happened with Dave and Bulletproof. And I'm just thinking about a lot right now because I keep teasing this epic major project that I'm working on. And we're like right now the process of we're coming up with the ownership percentages and just putting into place all of the framework for the future of the company. And now I'm seeing it through this lens. I'm like, is this going to be a thing? Where we get sold in the future and I get kicked out and all this drama.

Vanessa Spina:
It happens a lot. I always had a huge fear of that, I think, because I saw it happen so much when I worked in finance, and I worked in the stock market, I saw it happen all the time, and also saw it a lot in movies. And so I always was like, I'm never gonna sell any part of my company, like any shares or equity in it, until, like, if I ever just decide to sell it full out. But otherwise, I'm not giving up any ownership for any amount of capital. Like, it just, I've seen it happen too many times. And I mean, classic examples, Apple, I mean, Steve Jobs, creating this incredible company and getting completely removed from it. I mean, that's one of the most, you know, classic stories. And then he came back and brought it back to life. But I mean, to create something, and if you're a founder, entrepreneur, you know how much of your sweat, blood and tears you put into it, and then to have a bunch of other people come along, take it over, and then tell you what to do or kick you out. I mean, I can't imagine much worse when it comes to professional life. So yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so interesting. Yeah. Cause I've been thinking about it with the company I'm forming right now, because there's basically while we're still figuring out the structure, but there's basically two co -founders and like a founding investor. And so when you, that's like three people right there. And then you need like company stock and then you have like operations stock and employee stock. And so once you like, and then other investor stock. And so once you divvy that all out and look at ownership and everything, it's like, oh, okay. So even though I might be like the primary creator here, there's literally not enough ownership percentage to give out. Like basically like other people could not that they would do this, but they could combine together and be more than me in the company, which is you probably learned so much. How long, I forgot, how long did you work in that world?

Vanessa Spina:
Let's see, it was 20, about eight years. Right out of university, I had my securities license and I went right into the markets because it was like a boom time in Vancouver when where I was living at the time, like the stock market was taking off a lot, especially with gold and silver and mining companies. And so it pulled in a lot of recent grads like into that industry. And it was just like, it was booming. It was amazing time to be in it. But I learned so much working in capital markets because you really see... I mean, you're looking at balance sheets all day. We did valuations on companies. So we would say, if the company was a buy, hold, or sell, and you learn all the different valuation models, like how to value the company, how to value the stock, what value investing is, what makes a stock or a company overvalued, etc. But you also learn so much about what makes companies fail. And I know there's a lot of different things that can make it fail, but one thing I saw over and over again was debt, taking on too much debt. And also, yeah, I mean, getting diluted, overly diluted to raise capital. And then, yeah, you can eventually dilute yourself out where you don't really own that much of the company anymore. But yeah, it was about eight years. And then I started my company in the markets. And then I started ketogenic girl as my... It was just like a hobby. And then it basically took over everything else because that started... That took off. So it's a great learning experience to work in the markets. Like if anyone wants to run a business eventually, and you're listening to this, going and working in finance in the stock market for a few years really will teach you a lot.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, that's so amazing. I'm so jealous. I feel like I'm getting a crash course and everything right now just by having to do it. What's the phrase? A baptism by fire? Is that the phrase? Yeah, yeah. Trial by fire, yeah, baptism by fire. Yeah, trial by fire. Is there, is that also?

Vanessa Spina:
Baptism by far, I wasn't as familiar with that, but I think I've heard of it. Interesting.

Melanie Avalon:
So, I feel like I need to hire you as a consultant.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm always here for you for anything. I remember we were talking about investing a couple of years ago.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, because you I actually something you told me has like, stuck in my head for so like, it's one of those pieces of advice that really just stays with me and I hear you telling me it when I hear it in my head. Do you remember what it is?

Vanessa Spina:
Is it the one about how this top CEO told me one day he was like he had founded four companies and every single one of them was worth a billion dollars and I was interviewing him when I used to anchor for this new show right before I started doing all this stuff. And he said, I always lost money investing in other people. When I invest in myself and my businesses, I never lose money. And I was like, oh, that makes so much sense because it's your company. You're going to work harder than anyone else. But if you're investing in other people's companies, you have no control over how hard they're going to work. I don't know. Was it that one?

Melanie Avalon:
That was it. Yep. I hear it all the time.

Vanessa Spina:
It's huge, right? I love doing that job because I got to ask all these billionaires and people from Shark Tank and stuff what some of their top investment advice was and just the things I wanted to know. And those little nuggets, something like that, you know someone else told them that and it stayed with them for years. And so they're passing it on.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, that's so great. Do you remember any other nuggets? We're going to turn this into the intermittent fasting finance show.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, sorry listeners. We're going a little off topic into financing and investing, but I can't wait to know what your project is about for you to share it on the podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
me to stay tuned. It's very exciting. It's going very well, I think. We'll see. But yeah, anything new in your

Vanessa Spina:
world, just getting excited for summer and for a lot of family coming to visit. I've been excited about a few things related to intermittent fasting. And that's recently, I've sort of gotten back to doing the longer fasting window. And my main motivation was because I've been so sleep deprived the last couple of years from having two pregnancies and just everything that takes from your body like emotionally, physically, mentally, that I was just noticing that since I started interviewing again, that I just wasn't on the ball like I wasn't as quick as I was before, I wasn't as sharp as I was before. And it was really, really bothering me. Because you can tell when you're in the zone, when you're in the flow, when you're interviewing someone, you're asking all the questions that you want to ask. And it's such a satisfying experience at the end when you feel like you really like we were talking about mind those gems. And you said all the things that you want to say. And I just found that like I was slipping a lot. And I wasn't saying the things that I wanted to say in the moment, I was saying like the second best thing. And ever since I started doing again fasting during the day, so usually I record at four in the afternoon with my guests. So fasting until then and doing the interview with them. And then I'll usually have dinner right after because it's five o 'clock, I have dinner with my family and sort of open my eating window there. And I usually have a couple of big meals in there, two or three in there. By the time, you know, I'm all done. But I was just starting to do that and feeling my brain coming back online, like feeling my sharpness coming back my like ability to ask all the things that I want to and say the things that I want to. And I interviewed this doctor that I really admire last week, Dr. Vera Tarmen, she wrote food junkies. And I felt like this was such a good interview. And I was so excited because this is only the second one that I've done since I started doing this like oh, Matt again. And at the end of the interview, she said, Vanessa, those are some of the most intelligent questions I've ever been asked. I want to use this interview on my website. That was amazing. Like I've just never had. She just kept going on about how amazing it was. And I was like, I'm back. And I was just so excited because you know, I know how you feel about podcasting to like, you're so passionate about it as well. And I'm like, this is sustainable for me. I love it. I feel great all day. I feel energized all day. I have more time to get things done because I'm not spending like an hour, up to two hours, like prepping, serving, cleaning up after like just planning all the stuff that goes into multiple meals. And I can still do it for my family, but not doing it for myself during the day feels amazing. And I've just got, I feel like I'm getting myself back. I'm getting my brain back. And it's just such an unexpected surprise. And I'm just like, I'm just buzzing about it that I've gotten it back. So it's just kind of been fun to hear everyone sharing how much they love intermittent fasting in the last couple of episodes. And I just feel like I love it for all those reasons and so many more, but the brain benefits are really incredible.

Melanie Avalon:
That makes me so happy. Congrats on the interview. That's like the best thing somebody can say to you after an interview, I think, about the questions.

Vanessa Spina:
I know you, I'm sure you get it all the time and it's just, you know, you work for it. Like, you prepare for it. You read their books. You put so much time and effort. You know, I know you're like me, you're probably thinking about the interview every hour until you do it. And then after, like, you know if it went the way you wanted to or not. And it's, that's why we, you know, do what we do. And yeah, I'm so happy. So I'm so excited to be able to do this again. And it totally works for me to be able to fast until around five o 'clock. Super easy for me because I'm so busy during the day and I feel great this way. And I just love intermittent fasting. Like I'm re, I feel like I'm recommitting to my love of intermittent fasting. And this study that I think we're talking about next episode, but I just want to mention it here about the a hundred grams of protein and what happens with it. I'm just going to tease it has been extremely exciting with some of the findings there because it kind of really supports this sort of large protein meal. Oh, mad that I love to do. I know you love to do a lot of our listeners love to do. So I'm really excited to talk about that next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
I was just going to say really quickly, I had the same, not, well, I didn't leave it and come back. It kind of feels like you like broke up with intermittent fasting and you're like back. Totally. I know you didn't, but break up, but you know.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, I'm doing, I was doing two meals a day still on the weekend, but even ever since I read this study, I'm like, maybe I don't need to be doing that because I was forcing myself to have two or three meals a day because of what I have been learning about muscle protein synthesis. And it turns out that I didn't need to be doing that potentially because this study kind of reversed a lot of what we thought about how muscle protein synthesis is stimulated. So I feel, yeah, like I'm back. I did break up with it for a bit and now I'm back and I'm so happy.

Melanie Avalon:
Yesterday or the day before, I was just, every now and then I just randomly will have a moment of gratitude for intermittent fasting where I think it's the points that you just made. I think I was thinking about it when I was running around between errands and I was like, I can't believe at one point I was having to eat during the day. I was having to deal with that multiple times and completely respect to everybody, find the windows that work for you. For me, just you're mentioning the time benefits and the brain benefits. It's just so nice to have a completely uninterrupted time block of productivity and work and doing all the things and not having to stop and eat and all of that. It just works so, so well. I'm curious, so this study that we're going to talk about, did you find it after listening to that interview on the Peter Atiyah?

Vanessa Spina:
No, which is so funny. So I heard about it when it first came out in December. And then I read through Dr. Bill Campbell's analysis of him because I subscribed to his research review and he was breaking it down and I was really excited about it. And then I sort of noted who the authors were, but Dr. Luke Van Loon, who did that interview with Peter Attia that you're talking about, his name is at the end of the study. So I didn't see it because I expected it to be a primary author. Oh, he's on the study though. He's on it, but his name is like the last one. So he was part of it. And so they talk about it a little bit. I'm like not fully through that interview with Dr. Peter Attia because it's so amazing. I'm savoring it. But that's another thing is when I'm fasting during the day, I find myself way more able to take on complex because my cognition is enhanced. It really is like, I would say 30 to 40% improved when I'm fasting, especially now with the sleep deprivation and like postpartum and everything. And my ability to focus on a long two hour interview where you have to listen to every single word was really diminished. And now that I've been doing this the past couple of weeks, I can fully enjoy an interview like that again. And it's not like I'm forcing myself to listen to it because I have to, it's just a pure ecstatic pleasure. Like I was texting, I'm like, this interview is like a brain gas them for me because it's just amazing because my cognition is so enhanced. It makes listening to a very complex interview and topic very interesting. And when I wasn't fasting, I felt like that was tiring, like it was taxing to do, which is weird because I'm more in the fed state. You would think that you would have more energy, but I don't, for me, I think it's really the ketones, like the ketones that I get from fasting throughout the day, especially in the afternoon when I really get into ketosis and fat burning. That's when my cognition really, really goes up. And yeah, I can, I want to listen to in depth, complex interviews. Whereas I don't, like when I wasn't doing the fasting, I wanted to listen to more entertainment. Isn't that interesting?

Melanie Avalon:
No, I'm the exact same way. So like in my daily schedule, which is very, I've been doing the same thing for years and years, but all my work, like everything I do pre my one meal a day is, it's all work, which I love. I have so much fun and I enjoy it, but it's all, like you said, it's like cognitively stimulating and it's, I'll say it again, it's work. After I eat, that's when I take my like one moment where I consume content that isn't work related. It's just entertainment stuff. Like you said, that's

Vanessa Spina:
So funny. And do you feel like the desire for deep work or deeply focused tasks is gone? Or is it more that the pull towards entertainment and sort of shutting your brain off is like, there's got to be a connection with the fact that you're now spending all this energy digesting and you don't have as much for your brain.

Melanie Avalon:
No, that's it. That's it. So like, literally, the way it feels, and I've, I've like thought about this, and you just perfectly articulated it is when I'm have all this food and I'm digesting it, I literally feel like all my energy is going towards that digestion and that if I were to cognitively try to do work and focus on something, it would take away from that digestion energy like it doesn't feel like if energy was like this like colorful swirl that was like happening, it's like I see it going towards the food, it doesn't need to go somewhere else. And so that's where I need to just be like, consume entertainment stuff. I actually I do read while I'm eating, like I read books for the show, but that doesn't require that doesn't require synthesizing information, it doesn't require coming up with new information, it's literally just reading. So I can like I can like read and take notes. But then even after eating, that's when I just if I do do any like mindless scrolling on Instagram, or, you know, things like that, that's when I do that.

Vanessa Spina:
So it's really funny. I wonder if any listeners, you'll have to share with us in the Facebook group or, or something. If you have a similar experience, I would love to, to hear from you guys on that.

Melanie Avalon:
Same. I love that we have the exact same experience. That's amazing. It's very validating. I know, I know. I literally, because I do think about, I think about that a lot. How I just observe this energy shift and how I'm, the type of activities I'm doing in my life and how it relates to food.

Vanessa Spina:
I just feel so exhilarated, like, so excited about this because, you know, I'm, I just feel like I have myself back. And I think there is also connection to the fact that I just had two pregnancies. So I couldn't really do this that much. Like I would do two meals a day and still felt like I was pushing it in terms of like what I could do or get away with being pregnant because, you know, getting super nutrient dense meals to the baby was so important to me both times. And I felt like with two meals a day, you know, that was working, but I didn't want to try OMAD or anything like that. So now that I'm almost five months postpartum, I feel like, you know, and as we were talking about before it hasn't affected my prolactin levels, like my breastfeeding is still great. I'm exclusively breastfeeding and, you know, the fact that I, it's one of those things I guess that you can kind of, you kind of give up or sacrifice things. Like when you are pregnant, there's a lot of things that you, you know, change and you do everything that you need to do for the baby because that's what matters the most. But then, you know, after a little bit of time, you can get back to some things, you know, just for yourself and that, that's kind of what this feels like. So yeah, I'm really, really excited.

Melanie Avalon:
happy for you. Vanessa's back. I mean, you didn't go anywhere. A certain version of Vanessa is back. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
I wish I could fast while we record this as well, but it is usually right after we have dinner, but that's fine. At least, you know, maybe I still have some ketones floating around.

Melanie Avalon:
Which speaking of, I still love using your tone device. It's so fun. Thank you for sending that. I'm noticing really interesting patterns. Ooh. I tend to make the same amount of ketones because as listeners know, I do a, well, I don't know if they know this. A lot of them know this. I typically eat a high protein, high, come on, yeah, because we talked about this, high carb from fruit and lower fat. Consistently when I do that in the one meal a day situation, by the next evening, I seem to be light fat burning according to your tone device for ketones. The days that I do like meat only, it's a wild card. Some days it's more ketones than normal. And sometimes it says zero. It seems to have been about 50 -50.

Vanessa Spina:
And how often do you like switch things up? I sort of thought you did the same thing every day, but you also do like meet only days sometimes.

Melanie Avalon:
started doing that more, I've started doing that more over the past few months and they're not completely meat only. I still have a lot of cucumbers. I don't have any of the fruit. So it's basically higher protein, lower carb. Yeah, that's been really interesting to see. Yeah, it's really fun to do the tone device. So for listeners, it's a ketone breath analyzer and super easy to use, super cute and carry it around with you. Talk to listeners.

Vanessa Spina:
it. It's all at ketogenicgirl .com and you can just click on the tone device. We have the second generation available now. It's the one that Melanie has and it comes in black and gold and black and rose gold and white and pink and gold. Very feminine and.

Melanie Avalon:
I love rose gold. I remember the year I decided that was going to be my color. It's like rose gold. I mean, do you remember when rose gold first started becoming like the color? And I was like, this is a great color because it takes like all of the everything I love about pink. But it makes it like super refined and classy and like like a nice accent for like lifestyle like your apartment and stuff, you know.

Vanessa Spina:
Absolutely. My husband's obsessed with gold. And so I'm like rose gold is like my, yeah, the feminine version of it. It's so great.

Melanie Avalon:
So great. So anyways, this study that you keep hinting at that I'm so excited to talk about, can we talk about it?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I would love to. So I was mentioning, I first heard about it in December. I read Dr. Bill Campbell's breakdown of it. And last week I recorded a full breakdown on my podcast. And when I first heard about it, I was excited about it because I knew that it was providing some new information, some novel insights. But when I fully like really, really broke it down and I love doing podcast episodes just on one study because you could really go deep on it, I realized like not only was the study amazing in the results that it found and the conclusions, but also because it completely reversed all of the findings and conclusions we had on this topic before. So in the past there had been research done on this specific topic of how much muscle protein synthesis or the generation or creation of new muscle, building new muscle is created after you consume. Usually it was measuring zero grams of protein, 20 to 25 grams of protein, and then 40 grams of protein. And they would do muscle biopsies on the subjects for around four hours usually, sometimes up to six hours. And it turns out that this was actually a fatal flaw that no one realized because when they did this, they always came to a similar conclusion. There were four main studies that had been done in this area in the past. And they basically concluded that 25 grams of protein maximized muscle protein synthesis after you consume that much protein. Like there's no point eating more than 25 grams of protein. So many protein advocates that I are very well researched said this, like you're wasting your time consuming more than 25 grams of protein. And some of that was also based on this concept of like the leucine threshold and everything. And they found that every time they measured 40 grams of protein, it really didn't increase muscle protein synthesis much more than the 25 grams. But again, they stopped measuring four to six hours after. So this new study, what they did was measure zero grams of protein, 25 grams of protein, and 100 grams of protein. That's what I sort of thought initially they had done. But not only that, they measured it for 12 hours afterwards. So more than double all of the other studies that have been done in the past. And because those other studies only measured it for four to six hours, they concluded that muscle protein synthesis was kind of shutting down or it was stopping. But it turns out that 100 grams of protein stimulates muscle protein synthesis way more than even the 25 grams that you consume. And it continues to stimulate muscle protein synthesis for at least 12 hours. Because what if they measured more than 12 hours? It might just be an ongoing thing. They also had some other novel insights, just so many contributions to this field of knowledge. And they talked about two different kinds of protein absorption. So you have something called explanic sequestration, which is how much of the protein that you eat is actually converted into amino acids. How much of it makes it past your gut? Because some amino acids actually fuel your gut and get absorbed right at the gut level. How much of it actually makes it through your system, and then makes it into your blood and your peripheral system, where it's then sort of this amino acid pool that your muscles can dip into and soak up those amino acids. Then once the amino acids make it into your muscle tissue, how much of those amino acids actually make it into your contractile tissue is a whole other thing because that's actually what's building muscle. So what they found with 25 grams of protein, I think they said around 13 grams actually makes it to your muscles in terms of amino acid content. But with 100 grams of protein, about 53 grams in terms of amino acids makes it to your muscles. So it's a massive difference. And so for people who like to consume big protein meals, this is a game changer because, so for example, I used to always think I should do two to three meals a day because if I ate more than 25 grams at my one meal, I was basically wasting all the rest. So they were, a lot of people would say like, you're basically just oxidizing that quote unquote, excess protein and you're burning it as fuel, but it turns out that's not what's happening. You're continuously using those amino acids. So I then thought, well, if I'm going to consume 100 grams of protein in a day or sort of like 125 grams of protein a day, I have to split that up into at least two to three meals so that I can maximize muscle protein synthesis three times a day, four times a day. This is like, what do you call it? Like the dogma of protein and like muscle building communities is like everything, bodybuilding communities, everyone believes this. Like you should eat six times a day. Then you're going to maximize muscle protein synthesis six times a day. But it turns out based on this new study, you don't need to do that because you're 100 grams of protein or 125 grams of protein or how much protein you consume at that one sitting. A lot more of it is making it to your muscle and it's continuously stimulating it for hours afterwards. So this one study, it was done at the, I think University of Maastricht in the Netherlands and Dr. Luke Van Loon was one of the lead, I think, authors on the study, the one who was just interviewed by Dr. Peter Attia. And it basically just blows the lid off of everything that we used to believe about consuming protein.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much. Okay, for first of all, for bringing this study and telling us all about it. I'm so happy that you listened to that interview as well. Because I know this is like two different things. I remember that really. And we talked about this, I think last episode, we'll put a link, we'll put a link to everything in the show notes. So for listeners, there was an interview with Peter Tia, and Dr. Luke van Loon. So we'll put a link to that episode. And then this specific article that Vanessa is talking about or study, it's called the anabolic response to protein and it's from December, 2023, published in cell reports medicine. And I remember, like you're saying, when I listened to the interview with Luke, it was blowing my mind because he kept talking about how basically what you just said that when you have a massive bolus of protein, that that muscle stimulus is just elongated. So so yes, it might look like it's less in the beginning, but that's just because it's a longer timeline. And so the stimulus is lasting. And I'm just so I hadn't read the study, Vanessa's talking about, I'm just looking at it briefly now. It makes me so excited. So for example, like she was just saying, it says, following ingestion of 100 grams of protein did not plateau. But 26%, 44% and 53% of the ingested protein derived amino acids appearing over four, eight and 12 hours respectively. So that makes so much sense that like, all these other like you were saying, like all these other studies that they do, they look at it like far as later and it's like, oh, just 26% of 100 grams of protein. So you only used 20, you know, six grams of that. But if they had kept waiting to eight hours, it would have been 44. And if they had waited to 12 hours, it would have been 53. So that's mind blowing. That's really mind blowing. And see you next time. Bye bye.

Vanessa Spina:
Muscle biopsies are not easy to do. So it kind of makes sense why, I mean, they're basically having to take out muscle tissue, cut out muscle tissue from the subjects every so many hours. So it makes sense that they capped it at four hours, right? Like that's pretty grueling to do. So I mean, I'm so thankful to those subjects who volunteered or who participated to do it for 12 hours. But you can kind of see why they didn't do it for that long.

Melanie Avalon:
This is kind of like the thing at the beginning that you told me about investing in yourself. This is something that's going to stick with me. Yes.

Vanessa Spina:
And the study that they did that just came out in December that we're talking about, they used this isotopically labeled milk protein. So they were able to tag the amino acids specifically and then trace them in the body so they could see exactly which ones were basically absorbed through digestion, broken down, and which ones actually made it to the blood, and which ones actually made it into the contractile muscle tissue. And that's also one of the things that really sets this study apart. So the duration of it and the fact that they isotopically labeled the milk protein and the amino acids so that they could actually see exactly where they ended up.

Melanie Avalon:
That was one of the things I thought was so fun and interesting. And the interview with Luke and Peter is when he was talking about, because basically it sounds like what he loves doing, like what he does is tracking amino acids and where they go. And he was talking about how the journey of an amino acid from like a cow in some country to they use that milk and then they used it to trace and then it goes through the body and then it comes out and then it's like I'm paraphrasing, but like back on a jar on his shelf, like he like tracks the journey of amino acids and it's really fascinating.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I'm only about a quarter of the way through of the interview, but I can't wait to listen to the rest of it. I mostly just read the study, and then I sort of was at the point where they were talking about, like Peter was asking him a lot about like carb intake and what happens with that. And then they had a couple really interesting insights. They shared about how in the past, like one thing that diabetics and athletes have in common is that they have a lot of intramuscular fat. And, but what's interesting about the diabetics is it just stays there. It's sort of stagnant, whereas with the athletes, it's constantly turning over. And it's because athletes develop the ability to store more fat in the muscle. And he said that this thing is what stuck with me the most. He said that when they looked at the muscle tissue and the muscle biopsies, when they were looking at the fat, it looks like little lipid droplets. Like when you look at soup and there's oil on the top and on that would be a little mitochondria and it would have this fat droplet attached to it, like a backpack. I keep picturing like a little mitochondria with a backpack.

Melanie Avalon:
A little lift would drop it back, back, back.

Vanessa Spina:
It's the cutest thing ever.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. I can't unsee that.

Vanessa Spina:
I was like, this guy is my guy, like, it's the cutest thing ever. I really hope I get to interview him or meet him. Interview him? Yeah. Are you going to reach out to him? I have. I have my email. Last week I reached out to him on LinkedIn, so I'm trying different ways. You know, slide into the DMs. Yeah. I feel like he's not someone who's on Instagram. He looks like a very serious person. He sounds like a very serious person. I'm not saying serious people aren't on Instagram, but they know it's not the most serious place. So he's probably on Twitter. I might have to go on Twitter to do it. And I hate going on Twitter.

Melanie Avalon:
I have only been on Twitter two times in the past three years, I think.

Vanessa Spina:
You left fake about. Cuz we just, I know.

Melanie Avalon:
you feel the same way about it. No, no, no, I was saying because I I've only gone on like twice. And do you know why I went on to invite someone or for something else? No, I went on because the two times I had Gary Taubes on he was like, if you tweet about this, I'll retweet you. And I was like,

Vanessa Spina:
I was going to say it's probably Taylor Central -related.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Oh, I did tweet about Taylor Quik during the Ticketmaster fiasco. That's what it was. I remember that. I needed to join the collective people suffering. I need to be there. I need to like dip in for a second. Oh, man. Yeah, I don't like Twitter. I go and I'm like, oh, okay. It's like, oh, you know what it's like? It's like if you're like, I don't know if this analogy is a real thing. It's like if you're like walking around at a university, like peeking in different classes and like you are registered in one class, but you're not sure which one you're just like opening doors and you like open the wrong one. Like, oh, this is not my class. Like leave.

Vanessa Spina:
I feel actually, I always think about this analogy. Tim Ferriss said, he says he, he had different analogies for all the different social medias. He said going into Twitter is like walking into a party and people are throwing beer bottles at your head.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Yes. And they're doing it like esoterically.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, for me, it just is so intense. It feels like I'm in a, at a party and everyone is like yelling over each other and they're like me, look at me.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I don't like it.

Vanessa Spina:
It's just like this, uh, just like so intense and it goes so fast and yeah, it's not my.

Melanie Avalon:
TikTok, my brief experience there was really like, I was like, oh, this is not my place.

Vanessa Spina:
I told you remember I was like, I'm not investing time on it because I know it's going to get banned and it's happening now.

Melanie Avalon:
It was a hot moment and I was like, okay, we're done. I like Instagram, I feel happy there.

Vanessa Spina:
People say like, Instagram makes me feel like bad. TikTok makes me happy. And I'm like, I don't know, like Instagram is fine. I feel fine.

Melanie Avalon:
there. That's the way I feel. I really, and I feel strongly about this because people say that. And I really think, not that people are victim, I just, I feel like that's a little bit of a victim mentality. Like you, you choose the content you're consuming there and then the algorithm adapts to what you're watching. So the algorithm is not go, okay, if you like show up as a blank slate, it's not going and like finding all this stuff and like throwing it at you. It's doing it based on what you choose to watch. So if you're watching content that is content that you, you know, that makes you feel good and that helps you and educates you, it'll feed you more of that content. Like my whole homepage is like biohacking and Taylor Swift.

Vanessa Spina:
That's how I feel. People who don't like Instagram, I think they're not curating their feed enough because when I go in, I see stuff that really interests me. I see stuff, content about homeschooling, which I'm really interested in. I'm constantly learning things. I see stuff about protein and science. I don't see a lot of content that would make me feel bad. I know that content is probably there, but it's not in my feed. Just make sure it's not there.

Melanie Avalon:
You have to treat it like a pet or like a boyfriend that you're training. Like you have to like encourage the good behavior. So like if it throws you something that you don't like, don't watch it, do not click on it.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. And I think that's why some people feel that way about TikTok is because I think that algorithm is better at doing that for you. You spend a lot of time on it, it will curate you content. If you like cottages in Scotland or whatever, it'll be in baking or something, it'll show you that stuff. Whereas on Instagram, you just have to do that for yourself. And if you don't do that, then you're just going to sort of have to take in whatever content they want to serve you.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, there should be like a filter like on a dating app or something, it should be like a screenshot of your Instagram homepage, because you can learn a lot about people by what is on there.

Vanessa Spina:
on their search page, it's true. So yeah, I just wanted to say, just clarify one last thing about in the study, when they took the 25 gram protein drink over 12 hours, they had about 16 grams of that was then peripherally available in the bloodstream over the 12 hours. So about one third of the amino acids were consumed by the digestive system. That's what I was saying, the splenic sequestration. And then about two thirds or 66% of the amino acid content of that protein meal made it past the digestive system and into the bloodstream where it then became available to muscles. When they did the 100 gram milk protein ingestion, 53 grams were peripherally available after consuming it. So with 25 grams, which people were saying that's the upper limit where you max it out, only two thirds or 16 grams of that is then peripherally available. Whereas if you eat a 100 gram meal, like we often do with OMAD, 53 grams, so more than half of that is actually making it its way to that peripheral availability for your muscles. So you're getting way more amino acids available to your muscles that's in the bloodstream and then it's available to your muscles for uptake. And then when they, because they had tagged the amino acids for the 25 gram dose, they found about 4 .5 grams was incorporated into the actual skeletal muscle and the 100 gram dose of protein, they had 13 grams that was incorporated into the skeletal muscle. So it's really amazing. And I think it really finally, I guess makes a case for people who like to do OMAD and feel good doing it and they don't have to worry so much about not taking in every opportunity throughout the day by eating multiple meals. And for people who do like to eat two to three meals a day, I'm sure that that's equally great or maybe even better to be doing if you want to build muscle. But if you like to eat OMAD and have a huge bolus of protein, according to this study, you're not gonna suffer in terms of your muscle gain. I'm really excited to talk to this, talk to some really amazing researchers that I'm gonna have on the podcast in the next couple of months. I'm really excited to sort of dive into this more deeply and the implications of it and what it means for muscle protein science because it's really just such a reversal on what has been said for so many years before. And I'm just so thankful for this study and amazed by all the different insights that we got from it. I'm just so excited about all these new findings that this study had and it's basically, it's kind of also exhilarating to see that you could have a really strongly held belief for a long time, something that everyone believes and sort of takes for granted. And then you could have one study come along and do something that the other studies didn't think to do and completely reverse all of the knowledge that you'd had until then or all the findings is sort of similar with like the fourth phase water that Dr. Gerald Pollack discovered. It's like these paradigm shifting studies and I think this is definitely one of them. And I'm really excited to talk to some protein experts that I have coming on the podcast in the next few months because I just wanna talk about the implications of this and how it's gonna change the way we think about recommendations to people to maximize their muscle gains. And in the past, I think because of those previous studies, I really believe and like I was told by so many protein experts, you have to do at least two or three meals a day to maximize muscle protein synthesis. You can maybe get away with two, but it turns out that if you're eating a large bolus of protein, and this is a topic we've talked about so many times on this podcast and just in our own conversations with each other about does having a huge bolus of protein, does it affect and doing intermittent fasting during the day, does it affect your potential to gain muscle? So I think it's just, it's like the study was made for us.

Melanie Avalon:
No, it's amazing. And I'm really glad you mentioned that last thing that you said you want to mention, because it explains, it explains why both are true. It explains why because the numbers that you gave, yes, there's a bigger net gain overall in the amount of proteins that reach the muscle with the hundred grams after, you know, the longer hours, but it's a lower percent of that protein compared to when it's the smaller amount, because it was like two thirds versus, you know, 50%. So that would explain why if muscle gain, like bodybuilder, whatever was your biggest, and I'm, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this, but my, my interpretation of that data is if your goal is like competition level, like super physiological building a muscle, you'll get a better percent of converting muscle up converting protein into ultimately contractile tissue and muscle. If you do these smaller meals, because it's like, you know, two thirds versus a little bit over 50%. But for the everyday person doing that one larger meal, you're going to get ample tons of amino acids over the longterm. And if you were just comparing, if you only had like a 25 gram protein meal, or you only had a hundred gram protein meal, and that was it, you would get more protein from that 100 gram compared to the smaller one. Does that make sense?

Vanessa Spina:
Exactly. If you're only having one 25 gram meal in a day, you're probably not going to get enough. So you probably want to do it two or three times. But if you're only having one 100 gram meal and you're not a bodybuilder, then you're going to be just fine. So even if your goal is to build muscle, because some people might hear that and be like, well, I don't want to step on stage, but I do really want to build muscle, but you're still going to get enough amino acids. What I'm curious about is if you do that in the morning, it's probably going to be like if you were someone who likes to do OMAD and you do want to step on stage, you probably could do it if you had that OMAD in the morning. Because you then would be stimulating muscle protein synthesis for 12 hours after and be working out a few times during that period, which also stimulates muscle protein synthesis. But if you have it at night and then you go to bed, you're not working out during that time. I'm just thinking for someone who's a bodybuilder but wants to do OMAD, that could potentially be a thing. That's just one of these things I want to talk to some of these protein researchers about and get their opinions on it.

Melanie Avalon:
I'll be really curious when you finish the interview. Let me know what you think about, because later in the interview, he talks about the conversion of protein into fat. Did this article talk about that at all?

Vanessa Spina:
I did hear him talk about that part. I'm not sure. I heard him talk about it in the first third or quarter. And he said that it's likely highly overestimated how much sort of, again, quote unquote, excess protein is being converted to fat. And he said, it's only happening. And they both talked about the pathway through which it happens. If you, in his opinion, it's only happening if you are eating well over your caloric needs. And that sort of makes sense with everything, right? If you're eating too much fat over your caloric needs, you're probably going to gain weight. But if you're not overdoing what you burn in a day, then you won't gain fat. If you're eating a lot of carbs in excess of what you burn in a day, you probably will put on weight. So it kind of is the same thing with protein. So they talked about that prurveate conversion pathway. But he said, it's likely only ever happening if you're eating way more protein, which would be very hard to do. Then you're sort of consuming more protein. You're consuming more calories from protein than you burn in the day you're consuming excess calories, not excess protein. Is that the part you're talking about?

Melanie Avalon:
about? It was the part where they were talking about the pathway being like the protein converting basically to glucose and then converting from glucose to fat. That was one of the pathways, I think. I don't remember if there was a direct protein to fat conversion.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, he was saying, like, protein to glucose to-

Melanie Avalon:
prove it, I think. Yeah. What was interesting about it for me was I think I was a little bit on the flip side where I've been like, Oh, it's really, really impractical for protein to become fat. Like I just didn't really think it was realistically happening. And so listening to him, I was like, okay, it does happen because he said it does happen. But like you said, it requires a lot of circumstances. I guess I'm so interested in it because of the exuberant amount of protein that I eat.

Vanessa Spina:
He said it's the most inefficient, which most people like Dr. Ted Naaman and others talk about. And it's likely only happening. You'd have to be consuming protein in amounts where you would be eating several thousand calories of protein. That's what it sounds like.

Melanie Avalon:
which I sort of do, so that's why historically, that's why I'm like really, that's why I've been interested in the concept for so many years.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think you are though, clearly you're not, you know, you don't have excess weight that you need to lose like you're not. Oh, true. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
I do think I, um, I don't know the amount of, I don't know. I have gone through periods where I was eating so much protein. It's, it's really interesting, but yeah, Oh, this was so fun. I'm so excited about this. Yeah, me too. Article. Thank you for finding.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean, I think I've heard this question be asked so many times over the years on this podcast. I've had it asked me so many times over the years and it's kind of been, you know, a big debate like is intermittent fasting harming your muscle gain goals? It's like such a topic that we all want to understand because it's so important to all of us. And I know so many people like me were like, okay, I guess I'll eat more meals in the day. But once you really like the intermittent fasting lifestyle, you know, and like I've talked about myself, there's been times where I didn't feel good to meet a fast all day. And then I went, I enjoyed having more meals like from, you know, sometimes on holiday with my family or there's just days or like when I was pregnant, I needed to eat more meals. Like there's just times in life when it maybe it doesn't feel as good and you have to listen to your instincts. But if in general, you're someone who loves this lifestyle, that's why you're here because you love this lifestyle, you love what it does for you, you know, and it really works well for you and you're fearing that doing it is making you lose muscle. It's something I also want to talk about in the next episode because I know we have a bunch of questions about fasting and muscle loss. And I have something I want to clarify that I recently heard Dr. Don Lehman say with regards to fasting and protein. And I think, yeah. Such a teaser. Yeah. I don't have to put that as a teaser at the end. I think it's a really good clarifying point.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I love it. Oh, I'm excited. Okay. Well, thank you again so much. That was epic. I'm, I just really appreciate that. And that was, oh, I learned so much. So listeners, if you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at I have podcast .com or you can go to I have podcast .com and you can submit questions there. And you can get the show notes for today's show. There will be a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So that will be very helpful, especially with all of the conversation that we had. That will be at ifpodcast.com/episode372. And you can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. And you can follow us on Instagram. Speaking of, at I have podcasts and I am Melanie Avalon, Vanessa is ketogenic girl. And I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun talking about all these topics with you all today and can't wait to be on the next one with you. You too. I will talk to you next week. All right. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
See you next week!

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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May 26

Episode 371: IF Mistakes, Constipation, Sleep, Snacking, THC, Hunger Suppression, Magnesium, Serrapeptase, Spirulina, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 371 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 371 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 371 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I am great. How are you? I am so good. Let's see. This episode comes out. Oh, my goodness. Okay. So when this episode airs on the 27th, I will literally be probably at the biohacking conference in Dallas, which is...

Vanessa Spina:
Oh wow, it's already that time.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's so crazy to think about. Friends, I highly recommend if you are into all of the crazy biohacking stuff that I talk about, or if you listen to our other shows where we interview different guests and such, and even guests on this show, the biohacking conference is really cool because I get to finally meet in person all of these different people that I found the show. Like I think this year there's speakers include people like Paul Saladino and Dr. Mercola and Dr. Joe Dispenza, Dr. Daniel Amen, Dr. Sarah Gottfried.

Vanessa Spina:
I would go just for Dr. Joe Dispenza. I saw him speak when I was in college in university and I asked him if I could be his intern. What did he say? He was like yeah he was like email me and he gave me his email address.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't know what happened. I think his like assistant blocked me or something because she like was like Dr. Spence is very busy. And I was like, no, like I met him. He said he said I could intern for him. No one really knew who he was.

Melanie Avalon:
then. That's so funny. I remember my first internship I had, which was it was my dream internship. It was for Jerry Bruckheimer and who did like all the parts of the Caribbean movies and all the things. And was it the HR woman who told me this? I had like no experience. I don't remember if she told me this or if somebody else told me this, but it was the quote of something to the effect of like combat over experience with enthusiasm or like enthusiasm can trump experience. But basically like being enthusiastic and showing up is like you're way ahead of a lot of people.

Vanessa Spina:
positive mental attitude is like everything and just

Melanie Avalon:
showing up. Like, just showing up. That sounds like something I would do. Incredible.

Vanessa Spina:
I was in awe of him. Anyway, that sounds like an amazing lineup.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, and that's just some of them. There's like so many more beyond that. So I'm really, really excited. And then not only are these speakers, but then there's this expo where it's literally all of the brands I talk about all the time. They're all there. So you get to experience the technology, you get to, you know, try supplements, see all the things. It's just, it's really fun. And then there's a dance party, which speaking of I've been thinking a lot about dancing recently. I don't know if I've talked about this on the show. Have I talked about this? So like, growing up, were you a dancer? Like, oh, although, okay, wait, you had an interesting school life. So like, you're schooling when you were young, like in Asia and stuff. Did you go to private schools?

Vanessa Spina:
I went to private international school but I did eight years of ballet and I was like did a lot of dance and theater just like you.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, okay. I'm so jealous of you because I don't have many regrets in life, but one of my regrets is that I never did formal dance training and I always felt so awkward. So did they have like school dances at your, where you went?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, we had all the.

Melanie Avalon:
So like, did you dance at the dances? Mm -hmm. Okay, see, I did not dance at the dances. I, like, I thought they were so awkward, and I wanted to dance, but it was so, like, socially awkward. And so now I feel like... Okay, so last episode, we were talking about how... I think you were talking about how you were making up for... You said you were, like, making up for something from...

Vanessa Spina:
I'm not going to amusement parks when I was growing up.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, that was it, not going to amusement parks. So for me, I feel like I have to make up for dancing because now I just love, I love like, like this upcoming weekend, we have a wedding and I'm just so excited for the dancing portion. I feel like I can finally let my spirit out. And so at the biohacking conference, there's a dance, it's based cowboy themed this year. So I'm working on my outfit. All of that to say friends, it's probably too late now. If you are not there right now, but if my code is the same next year, the code is BC Melanie to get a discount on tickets and I highly recommend it. Oh, and this is Dave Asbury's conference. I don't think I mentioned that. So he is there as well. Yeah, that's all the things. Oh, I will say really quickly. So hopefully, oh, announcement. I hope I do this. I hope I follow through because we're still getting the final details, but we are planning to launch my third podcast, the Mind Blown Podcast, June 1st. That is the plan. So that should be hopefully coming out in a few days. We're going to air it on Saturdays. It is with, it's me and Scott Emmons, my fantastic partner at MD Logic. And it's my first non -health related podcast. In every episode, we just talk about mind blowing topics and it is so, so fun. It's so fun. So I'm really excited for listeners to check that out. It's going to be called the Mind Blown Podcast. So subscribe on Apple podcasts and hopefully, hopefully, hopefully we launch in a few days from now, June 1st.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay, before we get into questions, I have to ask you, did you see the video that Dr. Peter Ortea did about how he distains biohacking?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, how did I not watch it yet? Okay, so many people sent it to me. Okay, here's the thing. So many people sent it to me and it got sent to me during my like wind down time. And I was like, I cannot engage with this right now. Like I cannot watch this right now. And then I forgot to watch it. What does he say?

Vanessa Spina:
It was interesting, you know, because he said that he really thinks that biohacking is like a big distraction to the simple things that don't cost a lot of money, that are science backed, like exercise, mostly exercise. And he said kind of a lot of contradictory things in it, like, he doesn't think that people should. But I agree with his point that it can be a distraction because it's like all these sort of glitzy things like my red light mask, like a red light mask, whereas like maybe just taking care of your skin every day is like really what's going to move the needle over time or like, you know, I can see how some of these things distract from like, just eating well, whole foods, prioritizing protein, exercise. But he kind of was saying things like, you know, I don't really believe we should be focusing on all these supplements, but he recommends a lot of supplements. And then he's the reason I got into like, some aspects of biohacking, like he's one of the him and Dr. Dom D 'Agostino were the first doctors I heard on podcasts talking about keto. He was the first one I heard talking about rapamycin, I listened to every single episode he did on rapamycin. So rapamycin is like, is a huge biohacking staple. It's huge in the biohacking space. I think a lot of his like followers or fans, you know, got into biohacking because of him. So I think he should make maybe a clear distinction between some so in the in this video, who's specifically talking about this one biohacker who spent like $700 ,000 to have this gene therapy done that basically like suppresses mTOR and is going to help him live longer, which okay, is problematic in its own. But he wasn't really addressing that he was just saying, you know, this makes it seem like biohacking is, you know, this really expensive sort of unreachable thing. But you know, that's, that's like kind of an extreme example. And I do agree there are some aspects of biohacking that I think are just like a necessary, overly expensive, like are really not going to do much for you. But I think he could point out those critiques without just across the board being like, I have a disdain for biohacking, like all biohacking, I don't even like the term and I get filled with rage when people bring up the term biohacking, because like I said, a lot of people got into biohacking because of him, because of him talking about things like rapamycin or keto or whatever intermittent fasting or fasting, which he used to be huge on. So I found yeah, like it was interesting because I agreed with one part of it, but the other part of it I was kind of rolling my eyes like, okay, you're saying all this, but you do recommend supplements and you do talk about rapamycin, you do all this stuff too, right?

Melanie Avalon:
It's so interesting. I really think it comes down to a terminology and a language thing. It's like, what do we mean by this word biohacking? How do you define it? And yeah, thank you for saying everything that he said. And it's kind of like the issue with dietary fat versus body fat and how we use the word fat to mean both of those. And so people confuse eating. They think fat makes you fat. Like they're just like an issue. I think terminology and language is so important. And I agree. I think we need more defined definitions of biohacking or we need when people are addressing it to make it more clear what they're specifically addressing. It's funny. I was thinking about it. I'll have to watch that video because I just, I would do anything. I would sell my soul to have him on my show. Not really. I would not sell my soul, but I would, I know you wouldn't. I would go to great lengths. And so I was thinking, I was like, maybe I should pitch him and I should say like, listen, I know this is the title of my show. I will change the title of my show the week you're on it.

Vanessa Spina:
That's probably why he said no.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. It might be. Oh man.

Vanessa Spina:
the video, you will be laughing because he's like, he's basically saying he gets filled with rage. Filled with rage, okay. When people mention biohacking. So every time you email him, you fill him with rage. He's like,

Melanie Avalon:
like he's going to be filled with rage. I mean, I'm just honored that he rejected me that I personally got a rejection from him. That was like the best day of my life. I was so excited that I got an email from Peter, like not his assistant, Peter, saying no. Maybe you should invite him on to say how does he feel about intermittent fasting though? Isn't he like,

Vanessa Spina:
He used to be the biggest proponent of both fasting and intermittent fasting and then he saw one study, I think, where he believed that muscle mass was lost or something, but they weren't counting total body water, so it was probably just water. But he used to be such a big proponent of it and I don't know how he feels about it, because it seems to go back and forth.

Melanie Avalon:
I it just came to me how I'm gonna get him. Yeah, cuz I thought about that I was like, oh, maybe I should pitch intermittent fasting, but I feel like he's So that's why I was thinking what if I literally say listen, I will change the name of my show that week It'll just be the Melanie Avalon podcast that week that you're on it. I Like changed the artwork like I will do everything for you Maybe It wants the mind -blowing podcast launches and hopefully gets takes off. Maybe I invite him on that to talk about formula one Which he's obsessed with I feel like he would do that. You think so? Okay I'm gonna build up that show and then I'm gonna invite him on to talk about formula one That's it. That's it. I'm doing it friends. Okay. I don't know if there's mind -blowing stuff before Mila one. I've never watched it. I'm There probably is we'll find out. Yes, so goals so we shall see how that manifest friends Okay moving into intermittent fasting related stuff So last week in the past three weeks we've been making our way through this really wonderful post in my Facebook group where I asked people for a Mistake that they made with intermittent fasting and there are a few more answers so I was just gonna read through them and Give our thoughts about it. So Kathleen said it's hard to say as if has radically changed my life and health I'm two years in and I'm still making small changes But I've maintained a 15 pound weight loss and medical blood markers have greatly improved Maybe the mistake was thinking it was a quick solution This is a lifestyle a way of living who I am. The first few months were tough now. It is easy I wish I had realized early on to just do it and relax the results years later. It would be worth it. Oh I love I just that's who I just love reading this Kathleen. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, cuz I think so many people Will a yes, they think it'll be a quick solution, which To me I do think it's a lot quicker than like the the calorie counting and the chronic dieting and it actually works So in that regards it kind of is Quick compared to everything else, but it's not it's not gonna happen overnight And it is a lifestyle it is a way of living and like she talks about with just doing it and relaxing I think people kind of they can get stuck in paralysis by analysis, you know If there's information overload and you want to do it Perfectly and you want to find, you know the right thing for you and that can be really overwhelming Like you can just try it and see what works and stick it out and like Kathleen said so many people Really experience benefits especially once you start training your metabolism to easily switch into fat burning Your hunger hormone levels adjust accordingly. So you're no longer hungry during your fast and It's just really wonderful. So I really like that mistake that Kathleen shared So and then we have some more so Ann said not fasting clean Flavored coffee, for example, this is funny because I feel like we don't we haven't talked recently as much about Fasting clean or not fasting clean back in the days when I had Jen Stevens on that was like we had so many questions about That but it really can make a difference having flavors during your fast and things that are giving your body Contrary signals to the fasted state can really think they can really be a hurdle and people really Connecting into fasting and experiencing the benefits and it being easy and people often hold on to these crutches thinking they're making them easier When when you finally let go it can just be really amazing. So yay for fasting clean Holly said eating too fast and too much when my window opens and then she put a little poop emoji I don't know if that's supposed to mean that it was giving her digestive distress but this is an interesting one because on the one hand one of the great things about intermittent fasting is We know that you can see changes incredible beneficial changes without actually changing what you eat or Quote restricting, you know limiting the amount of food you eat all that to say I think people can experience even more benefits when they do make healthy food choices within their window and also Get past the need to perhaps like ravenously like Holly said eat too fast and too much I think especially in the beginning when people are trying intermittent fasting they may Feel like they need to just eat all the things and you know that they're gonna be fasting and they're gonna be hungry so they've got to really stock up and it can be really nice to work through that and become more in tune with A more mindful approach in your window where you are, you know, hearing your satiety cues and not feeling the need to rush through your food and stopping when full. So thank you for sharing that, Holly. Kristi also said not clean fasting. Christine said her fasting window was too long. It was 16 .8. She said, I could not eat the proper nutrition in that time. Now I do 13 .11. I'm stronger and feel great. I'm 56. And I started fasting at 52. Yes. So this is another example of finding the window that works for you. And different windows work for different people. And some people may need to fast a little bit longer. Some people may need to fast shorter. For Christine, she found that she couldn't get, you know, enough of her nutrition in her window. So I find it really interesting when people say they can't fit in nutrition into eight hours. And that's just coming from my perspective and how much I eat in my short window. I'm really intrigued by that. Like, I'm always really curious, like, what are they eating? And is the reason they can't get in enough? Is it because they get prematurely full? Like, are they eating multiple meals within that window? Either way, I love people to find what works for them. But I always am really interested in what people are actually eating when they feel like they can't get enough nutrition within, like, eight hours, for example. Alani said, not listening to my body and being miserable for the last few hours instead of just breaking my fast and eating, trying to do a certain amount of hours instead of listening to my body. Oh, I love that. So it sounds like Alani was doing what we were calling what Jen used to call white knuckling it. So white knuckling the fast. You know, this is something where I mean, if you're new to fasting, you know, in the to do the longer fasting and you might have to, you know, push through and then eventually your body will get more more adapted. But I think it's really important to be intuitive and know when maybe you should just be having a certain fast or when you should just be opening your eating window. And I really love that Alani came to that place of understanding that. Barb said eating too many calories. So again, this goes back to what I'm saying earlier, where you fasting does not mandate that you restrict your calories. That said, you might find that you're eating too many calories in your window. I think both of those concepts can exist. Some people do find more benefits when they do take a look at, you know, how many calories they're actually consuming and they're eating window. And a lot of times what you can do is not so much change calorie counting per se, but just the types of foods you're eating. So, you know, switching to whole foods only from processed foods can have a massive effect on calorie levels without even having to consciously count calories or playing around with macros might have the same effect. So I think there are a lot of different approaches you can take. If you do feel the need to try to consume less food in your eating window for whatever reason, it doesn't necessarily have to be focusing on calories. Some people focus on calories as like what they like to do. And that's what works best for them. So again, it's all about what works for you. Colleen says not being able to sleep from fasting and constipation. She never had those issues before she started fasting. So sleep and constipation. It's funny, like for me, fasting helps my sleep so much because I fast during the day then I eat a massive dinner and then I sleep and it just really helps me. Some people going to bed on a full stomach like that does not help their sleep. And on the flip side, some people, if they're having an earlier eating window, they might not sleep well in the fastest state, which that is for sure me, like I cannot sleep on an empty stomach, but it's really interesting because I, Dr. Huberman, Andrew Huberman has been doing a sleep series on his podcast with Matt Walker. I've been really, really loving the interviews and made me so happy. Matt Walker talked about what the studies actually show about going to bed on a full or empty stomach. And he made a very strong case that this idea that you should go to bed on an empty stomach is not accurate. Like basically you can eat before bed and it's okay. I think there was a window of, I don't remember, I'd have to recheck. There was an ideal window where you would stop eating, but it wasn't like hours and hours before bed. It was not three hours before bed, like is often recommended.

Vanessa Spina:
That's interesting. Yeah, I personally find that when I have one meal a day, when I have like my dinner meal as my meal a day, I sleep way better than when I have two meals a day. And I just have, I think because I do high protein, like it's just easier. I don't wake up to pee. Like I just sleep through and I love it. Like I have some of my best sleeps, but I agree with you. It's not the same for everyone. Like, and that's why it goes back to trying different things, figuring out what works best for you. And it's only through that experimentation, you know, of changing it up that you can see when you do sleep better and when you don't.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it was so exciting to hear him say that because you just so often hear all the time, stop eating three hours before bed, stop eating three hours before bed. And he was like, no, it doesn't, the studies don't really show that. And I actually did see a study on my own looking at this and it found, and this actually speaks to kind of what you're talking about with finding what works for you. It found that eating before bed did affect sleep negatively, but only for people that weren't doing that normally. So people who were normally eating for bed, it didn't have a negative effect. So it kind of goes to what your body's accustomed to and what's working for you. So I think adjusting your fasting window and your eating window to best support your sleep is awesome. I also felt super validated in those interviews because he is a very firm believer that we have different chronotypes when it comes to sleep. And some people are just naturally night owls, which I really, really am.

Vanessa Spina:
You're a night owl? I think I would be naturally, but I love the morning. I both love late nights and the morning. They have similar qualities in that it's just quiet. And more than anything, I love a sunrise. And I love being up while other people are sleeping, which is really great in Europe because I'm usually up for like eight hours while everyone is sleeping in the US. But in the morning, it's just such a peaceful, beautiful time, especially right now. Like the birds are chirping. Like I love going outside, having my coffee, greeting the sunrise. Like it's just for me, it's the ultimate experience every day. So I love being up late and I used to do it a lot, but the morning definitely trumps it for me. So I like going to bed early now.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, I would love to be you. I would love to be that person that feels that way in the morning. I really don't think I, I really don't think I can. Like I really think it's, I do not have a memory ever of waking up early like that and feeling that I was supposed to be awake at that time, if that makes sense.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I was gonna ask, did you ever wake up early?

Melanie Avalon:
No.

Vanessa Spina:
Never. Then maybe you don't know what you're missing.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I know. Oh, like, have I been up early? Yes, I have. I'm sorry. I thought you meant like, naturally, like, in the vibe of what you just expressed. Oh, I've woken up early a ton, especially when I, well, I mean, school. And then when I was doing like, background on all these different TV shows, I was waking up at all different times. I have never had the experience of feeling that way in the morning. And so something you talked about even was he said, if a person like me, like a night owl, if they get the same amount of sleep, but they go to bed earlier and wake up earlier, they don't feel as rested compared to the same amount of sleep going to bed later and waking up later. And then on the flip side, like a morning person, if they get the same amount of sleep, but they go to bed later and wake up later, they feel less rested than if they went to bed earlier and woke up earlier, even though it's the same amount of sleep. So there's something about that, that rhythm. I was the night guard, like back in the evolutionary days, like I was, I was like making sure we weren't being attacked by wolves and stuff. That was my role. I'm serious. I'm joking, but I'm not joking that they think that's the reason that we have these different chronotypes is because somebody needed to be awake at all times for the tribe. So we develop different rhythm. So some people were, you know, awake at different times, keeping everybody safe. But like you, I love that being awake when the world is well, I guess the whole world is awake at some point, but the world that you're in is asleep. And so you're you can just have an uninterrupted time and moments. So yes, that was a whole tangent constipation. A lot of people do experience changes in digestion with fasting might be bloating, diarrhea, constipation. A lot of it can just be from having larger amounts of food at once and not being able to digest it properly. And that's where things like HCL and digestive enzymes can be really, really helpful. I hope to be launching my version of those in the future, as well as looking at your food choices. And also taking magnesium supplement can be amazing for constipation. So I have a full body magnesium blend called magnesium eight. I would take that also specifically for constipation, you can get something like natural calm. Or there's something called mag O seven, which I really want to make my own version of and it's only magnesium oxide and it really helps move things along. So those types of magnesiums can really help with constipation. Okay, Vanessa said, eating chips after her dinner with two emojis, the ones that are like, like, this is kind of sad. I'm wondering if she's from the UK and she's talking about cookies, although it might be chips, actually might just be chips.

Vanessa Spina:
You mean chips, like, chips and fries?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's biscuits. Wow. Okay. That's how savvy I am with international gastronomy.

Vanessa Spina:
I only know that because my mom's side of the family is British, so I know like they say chips instead of fries.

Melanie Avalon:
chips is fries, you're right. Yes, biscuits are cookies. And football is soccer. I'm tracking. Okay. So eating chips after her dinner. So that sounds like something where probably was just a comfort habit. And she probably found that, you know, can't eat just one, as they say. Emily said taking a liquid sleep aid at night that had sugar and alcohol. I was reading that at first. And I thought she meant an actual supplement, but she's probably talking about having an alcoholic drink at night. So that was not clearly working for her. Becky said she quit and she gained 50 pounds back after losing 72 stress crept in. So something inspiring I'll say here is I think people can get really nervous or fearful about, you know, falling off the wagon or how will you maintain? And one of the great things about intermittent fasting is it works so beautifully for a lifestyle and for maintenance of your weight loss. And I think people who are accustomed to dieting, they really can dread that, that regain. And I understand Becky did intermittent fasting and did gain it back. It sounds like she, oh, she quit. Sorry, she quit intermittent fasting. So I'm not laughing at her. I'm just saying like, one of the nice things about intermittent fasting is it can be sustainable and you can keep doing it. And it really can help with the maintenance and the maintaining of your, the goals that you reach. And you can always start back, you know, cause I think it can feel really horrible if you quote, fall off the wagon or gain the weight back, but there's always a new tomorrow. There's always that bright morning that Vanessa is greeting in the morning. So I just encourage people not to be too hard on themselves and have grace and things will be okay. And then Amy said the same IF window every day, even before shark week. I'm just thinking about that. The same IF window every day, even before shark week. Oh, wait. Oh, I'm, oh, I wonder if shark week is a code for a woman's cycle that I have never heard of. Let me look that up. Okay. I just learned listeners that shark week means of woman cycle did not realize that for anybody interested in Amy's response, definitely check out our last episode that we did, which was I a podcast episode three 70, because we talked all about intermittent fasting for your cycle. We personally don't do it, Vanessa and I, but there are approaches and Dr. Mindy pelts, for example, has a book fast, like a girl where she talks a lot about this. So if that's something of interest, definitely check out Dr. Peltz's work, check out that other episode we did. I'll also be having Mindy on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast so you can check that out as well. So there's a lot of options. Sophie said watching the clock, having a rigid window, five years into it, I eat when I'm hungry. If I'm hungry in the am I eat, I'll skip dinner. Instead, I have settled into a natural 12 to 6pm eating window, two meals a day. The weight loss benefits were early in the five years. Most of the COVID and menopause in the last five years happy to maintain. So this kind of goes back to one of the earlier answers about, you know, being too rigid or having these rules or not being able to, you know, not listening to your body about when to break the fast. And I just think it's so important to be really intuitive with everything and know that you can try different things and different things work for other people is like the takeaway of hearing all these comments. And then one last one from Tricia, she says, I truly don't think I've made any mistakes. I've just learned and adjusted along the way. I definitely know my body even better than ever now, now that I've been fasting for almost two years. She said I know exactly how to lose a few pounds if I want to, but mostly now I'm using fasting as a way of life to maintain health and weight and just feel better. And this is so incredible. It's an incredible way to end this whole section. I'm just so happy because I feel like I couldn't have picked this any differently. But basically, yes, that vibe of there are no mistakes. Like you're not failing with fasting, you're just finding what works for you, trying different things. There's always potential for, like Tricia said, losing those last few pounds, making the changes and the experiencing the benefits that you want to experience. So I really, really love that. That was a great way to end this section about the mistakes. Okay. And so a little, little note for the audience. So Vanessa. she has a beautiful baby boy, Damian, and he is a new baby boy. He's crying a little bit. So she's going to be muted and I'm probably going to finish out this episode. We actually had a question I wanted to talk about, which it comes from Rudy. And Rudy asked, what do you think about using alternatives like THCV for hunger satiation during the fast? So I was really excited to dive into this. I had not heard of THCV, but apparently it's a thing. So there are multiple compounds in cannabis, which CBD oil and things like that are now, I think they're, is that legal everywhere in the US? I'm not sure. We've had feels as a sponsor on this show in the past. And I personally love CBD oil. It really helps my sleep, my mood. I've just experienced massive benefits from it. And the reason I really love feels so, so much is they were the first CBD oil I could find that met all my stringent criteria. So I wanted one that was full spectrum that was made with just MCT oil as the carrier that was tested for purity and potency. So I love that. So if you go to, I think feals.com/MelanieAvalon and use the coupon code Melanie Avalon, that should get you a discount. In any case, with their multiple compounds in cannabis that have different effects. And so a lot of people are familiar with THC, for example, which is one of the main cannabinoids in cannabis. And it does have psychoactive effects. And it's usually not present in CBD oils or in very small, minute amounts. So I think feels does have a very tiny bit of it. This other compound THCV is also a cannabis derived compound, but it has different properties. So there's been quite a few studies on it when it comes to appetite and people often associate cannabis with increased appetite and even weight gain. And this is cannabis, not CBD oil. THCV a receptor called the CB1 receptor, which stimulates appetite. So if THCV is blocking that receptor, it could be reducing appetite. The studies on it. So there was a 2009 study that suggested THCV may reduce food and food intake and weight gain. 2013 study found it may reduce glucose intolerance related to obesity. There was also a randomized double blind placebo controlled trial. And they found that purified THCV and doses of five milligrams twice daily for 13 weeks, decreased fasting, plasma glucose, improved pancreatic beta cell function, adiponectin and April lipoprotein a and people with type two diabetes. But there was no impact on appetite or body weight in those patients, which is interesting. A 2015 study looked at a single dose of 10 milligrams of THCV. And this one was really interesting because they were looking at it for a food reward and food aversion. Interestingly, it actually did make people crave chocolate more, which is kind of the opposite of what we were thinking, but it also made them feel more averse to rotten strawberries, which is really interesting. So basically the good food looked better and the gross food looked grosser, but it also didn't seem to affect pleasantness or desire for the food. That's really weird to me. It's really weird that the patients said that the chocolate seemed more alluring and the rotten strawberries seemed worse, but they didn't have any changes in whether or not they desired that food. That's a little bit weird, a little bit conflicting. There was also a 2015 trial and they found that THCV actually might combat some of the negative effects of THC. So for example, it might help with increased heart rate and the subjective feeling of intoxication and verbal recall issues from THC. So basically overall, a lot of the studies in THCV are in animals. There are some in humans. Some of them are mixed. It does seem like it potentially has the potential to reduce appetite. I did look online for sources of this, like how do you get this? And there will be cannabis oils that are sold, CBD oils that are sold that are high THCV. I'm not sure if you can get just isolated THCV. I think you can. Regardless, the question is what do you think about using alternatives like THCV for hunger satiation during the fast? One is that If you are experiencing chronic hunger during fasting and that's ongoing and you're white knuckling it or you're always hungry, you probably need to make bigger changes to your whole approach because when you actually find the intermittent fasting protocol that works for you or the meal intake that works for you, the macros, the lifestyle approach that works for you, you shouldn't be experiencing that hunger during the fast. Or if you do, it shouldn't be a hunger that feels like it's controlling you, if that makes sense. It should be more of a feeling that your body is fasted and could be eating, but it shouldn't be overwhelming and taking you over and distracting, kind of like the feeling that you get when you're on, if anybody knows, calorie restricted diets and dieting in general. So, I think stepping back is that taking a... a broader look at your overall diet and fasting approach is probably a good place to start. From there, there are great tweaks and adjustments that you can make. I'm not saying to drink all the coffee, but for example, we know coffee pairs really well with fasting, helps actually not only reduce appetite, but actually helps, quote, unlock those fat stores. It helps stimulate lipolysis, which is fat burning. So that might be something to try. But then as far as these compounds like THCV, so I don't think the actual, depending on the ingredient, well, that's the problem. It's probably pretty hard to get isolated THCV as just a compound. It's probably often in a supplement or in something. So you would need to look at the other ingredients and see, are those ingredients, do they have flavors? Do they have additives? Because that might be, quote, breaking your fast. The actual THCV compound itself should not be breaking your fast. And if it helps you with suppressing your hunger, I mean, I can't tell you what to do or not to, but I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with using, smartly using compounds to help us achieve our goals in ways that are sustainable and in ways where we are still nourishing our body and honoring all of that. What I get nervous about is relying on pills or relying on supplements or relying on things to power through signals that are telling us that we actually do need to eat or that we do need to rest because I just think it's so, so important to be intuitive with that. So that is my answer there. And I will go ahead and answer Candice's question as well. So Candice wanted to know, what is the difference between the two magnesium supplements you make? Thank you in advance. So back to speaking of supplements. So my Avlonix line, I created it because I am neurotic about what I put in my body and I just want to put the best of the best in. And I really couldn't find for a lot of supplements that I take versions that I felt good about. And it all started with my supplement seropeptase, which is a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. And when you take it in the fasted state, it actually breaks down problematic proteins in your body. And it can really help. I mean, it clears my sinuses like none other. That's why I was so obsessed with it for so long. And actually Jen Stevens, the OG host on this show, she took seropeptase for quite a while to get rid of her fibroids or her hemorrhoids, one of those. It's an amazing wonder supplement and it's a really delicate enzyme. And so all the versions on the market had problematic coatings basically to help with the absorption. So I made a form that has just a cellulose resistant coating essentially that is completely benign. And it's just so amazing. I promise you, if you have allergies, this will get rid of it. Every time I meet somebody who's like, has allergies, I'm like, you need seropeptase. So point being, that was my first supplement. And then I made two magnesiums, getting to Candace's question. So I have magnesium 8. That is a full spectrum magnesium blend. And by full spectrum, there are more than eight magnesiums. But what I mean is it has a lot of different types of magnesium. And most people are deficient in magnesium, really. And that's because historically, our main source of magnesium was through our food, which came from our soils. And our soil is so magnesium depleted today. So like when they measure the soil today compared to times past, I think it's like an 80 or 90% difference in a lot of the mineral levels, including magnesium, which is just really, really shocking. And so a lot of us aren't getting magnesium. And magnesium is depleted by things like stress and exercise and lack of sleep and our modern environment. So supplementing with magnesium is just, I think, I don't like to make blanket statements, but I do think most people can benefit from a magnesium supplement, especially a full spectrum one like I have. So if you take magnesium 8, that's really for everything like your whole body, your muscle recovery, your energy, your sleep, bowel movements, it's all the things. The second form of magnesium I have, so that's magnesium 8. Then I have my magnesium nightcap. That is a special type of magnesium that actually crosses the blood -brain barrier. And there are a lot of studies on it. It contains magnesium 3 and 8, magnesium L3 and 8. And that magnesium has been shown to boost memory, to help with mood, potentially help with sleep. So I love taking that before bed. I think it's really wonderful. So I take both of those supplements every day. You can get them at AvalonX.us. The coupon code MelanieAvalon will get you 10% off. You can also get a 20% off one -time coupon code if you text AvalonX to 877 -861 -8318. That's AvalonX. Can you tell I'm going into my commercial mode? That's AvalonX to 877 -861 -8318. And you can also get a 15% off one -time use coupon code if you sign up for email updates. That's AvalonX.us/email list. And I'm really excited because my next supplement is coming out soon. It's spirulina. Oh my goodness. I love spirulina. So spirulina is a blue -green algae. I don't like the term superfood, but it's essentially a superfood. It's the most nutrient -dense thing ever. It's just basically pure nutrition when you look at the label, and it's high in B vitamins and vitamin A and iron, and it also has really cool things like glutathione and GLA and superoxide dismutase. So it's a really amazing way to boost your energy, fight oxidative stress, support optimal metabolic health and wellness for longevity. And the reason, friends, that it took me so long, because I know I've been talking about it for so long, the reason is because I wanted to have a single ingredient spirulina tablet, and because there are single, well, there are supposedly single ingredient tablets on the market. And so I kept working with my supplement partner trying to create it, and we would create all these different forms. And we could make the tablets with just one ingredient, but it was really dusty and there wasn't good quality control, and it didn't have that firm tablet feel to it. But I was like, it has to be done because they're out there on the market. I don't understand. How can we not do it? The reason is because the ones on the market are not just one ingredient. I tested them, or we tested them. So the reason you can do that is because if there's an inactive ingredient that is below a certain percent, like a very, very small amount, you don't have to disclose it, and you can say it's one ingredient. So that's what's happening. That's what's happening. If you see spirulina tablets and they say they're one ingredient, they're probably not. Again, I haven't tested every spirulina tablet on the market, but probably that's the case. So we are actually going to make ours with a very, very tiny amount of silica, which actually has all of these incredible health benefits. Not that it really matters because it's such a small amount that I don't know how much of it you're actively getting, but silica is amazing for your hair, skin, and nails. It has so many benefits. I actually just, I learned a lot about it when I interviewed a company called Aquine Springs on my show on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. They have a high silica, low deuterium water, which is amazing. I'm actually, friends, if you're wondering if I actually do the things I talk about on the show, I do. Like I drink that water every day. It's so good. I'm actually talking to them right now because I want to order a pallet because shipping's really expensive for it. So I was like, can I just order like a massive shipment and, you know, get a bulk discount and help with shipping? Point being, I learned a lot about the benefits of silica interviewing them. So there'll be a little bit of silica in the spirulina and we finally got the final version and oh my goodness, it tastes so good. I like the taste of spirulina. Some people don't. That said, this, my Avalonic spirulina tastes, I think, objectively way better than anything else I've tasted on the market. It's just an amazing way to get in those, fill in the gaps of this nutrients that you may be missing. It's also a complete protein. That said, you're eating really tiny small amounts, so it's not like you're going to use it for filling up your protein quota, but it is a complete protein, which is super cool. So that will be coming soon. Make sure you get on my email list so you don't miss updates about that. That will be at AvalonX.us/emaillist. We're hoping to launch in July, so fingers crossed, fingers crossed. And we're going to do an amazing launch special and we have amazing pricing on it. I'm so excited. It was really important to me because I know that spirulina on the market is, it can be really expensive. And so it was really, really important to me to make it as affordable for you guys as I could. And so I'm really happy with where we landed with the pricing and for the launch special, we're going to have like an incredible discount that you're not going to want to miss. So don't miss that. But yeah, so this was my first time actually, I think in six or seven years of podcasting, I know I finished out a podcast by myself before for like the last five minutes, but I think this is my first time doing it this long. It's kind of a vibe. I miss Vanessa, Missy, Vanessa. So yes, if you enjoyed the show, you can directly email questions at I have podcast .com to submit your questions, or you can go to I have podcast .com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at I have podcast .com slash episode 371. I think that's all the things you can also follow us on Instagram. We are I have podcast I am Melanie Avalon and Vanessa is ketogenic girl. Oh, and as a reminder, hopefully we're launching the Mind Blown Podcast in a few days. So definitely subscribe and check it out on Apple podcasts. I really think you guys are going to enjoy it. It's so, so fun. It's so fun. The first episode we talked about the Mandela effect, which is like so mind blowing. If you remember, do you remember friends when you watched the Disney movies and Tinkerbell and the logo, like there was like the White Castle and like Tinkerbell would fly out and dot the I that never happened. Nope. Never happened. If you can find it, a video of that, you'll be, I mean, you probably be rich because everybody's looking for this video and it doesn't exist. So on that note, check out the Mind Blown Podcast and definitely tune in next week. Thank you so much guys. Thank you so much for listening to the intermittent fasting podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by podcast, doctors, show notes and artwork, library on a joiner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

May 20

Episode 370: Digesting Protein, Glucose Spikes, Leptin Resistance, Insulin Resistance, Circadian Eating, Women’s Hormones, Fasted Weight Training, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 370 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any drink mix purchase!

MD LOGIC: Unlock the power of nature with colostrum, a nutrient-rich first form of milk containing antibodies, growth factors, and various immune system components to support a stronger immune system, digestion, gut health, muscle recovery, and overall health and wellness! Try MD Logic's Colostrum and discover the benefits of one of nature's most powerful superfoods. Save 15% off with code IFCOLOSTRUM at mdlogichealth.com.

COZY EARTH: Cozy Earth provides luxurious, temperature regulating, sustainable bath and bedding products made from viscose from bamboo. Go to cozyearth.com and use promo code "IFPODCAST" for an exclusive 35% off!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

MD LOGIC: Try MD Logic's Colostrum and discover the benefits of one of nature's most powerful superfoods. Save 15% off with code IFCOLOSTRUM at mdlogichealth.com.

COZY EARTH: Go to cozyearth.com and use promo code "IFPODCAST" for an exclusive 35% off!

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any drink mix purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

Listener Q&A: Emily - Is it ok to do intense strength training in the morning and then continue to fast until like 3pm?

NUTRISENSE: Visit nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get 1 month of free Nutritionist Support.

Listener Q&A: Hillary - How do you feel about IF and women’s hormones, vs doing a more circadian rhythm of eating?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 370 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.


Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 370 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I am very well. How are you? I'm good. I had a great interview yesterday with Dr. Mindy Peltz all about the fasting stuff, so that was fun. And you said you have not interviewed her, correct?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I haven't. I don't really follow her work too much.

Melanie Avalon:
She wrote fast like a girl, which I feel like it became pretty mainstream with intermittent fasting. Like she was on all the shows and stuff, but it was a really good conversation and I learned quite a few nuggets I had never heard about intermittent fasting before. Although she has a very interesting perspective on protein, which is she actually thinks people should follow a lower protein intake. So she's probably one of the first people I've interviewed more tangential to our sphere. So like in the keto sphere, the fasting sphere. So not like the vegan side of things and not like the Balter Longo, you know, longevity world, but like this camp who is lower protein intake. So I thought that was really interesting.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. So you were saying she thinks that if people eat more than 75 grams of protein a day, they can gain weight or she sees that sometimes. Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
And so she said she finds with some of her clients that if they add protein as a macronutrient, it makes them gain weight. And in the book, she was saying it's because it's turning to glucose and it's not keeping their blood sugar levels low enough. And then on the podcast, she was giving examples of patients and she did make it very clear that it's very individual and this is not the case for everybody. But she did say she's had patients where they had really, really tightly controlled diets and she would add protein and that would make them gain weight. And then she said she did another interview because she has a podcast and the person was saying that some people have certain gut bacteria that more preferentially turn protein into glucose.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm a little concerned with the concept of like eating more than 75 grams of protein per day, making people gain weight, especially when using the term weight. I don't know if she was using that in the book or in the interview, but generally they're saying like they're implying gaining fat. When people say they're gaining weight, they're not usually saying like, oh no, I'm gaining muscle. They're usually referring to gaining fat. So usually if you do gain weight, or at least your weight isn't going down because you're eating more than 75 grams of protein, it's because you're either gaining lean mass or maintaining lean mass, in my opinion, or having stronger bones. I mean, that's interesting, the part about the gut microbiome and everything, but I usually, I mean, from all the research I've looked at, actually Dr. Jose Antonio, I'm about to have back on the podcast. He did some of the most well -known studies on eating more protein, actually making people lose more fat when they were even over -consuming protein in certain studies where they like really went over what you would think would even be reasonable and people were losing more fat in every study that they did. So usually when you eat more protein, you're losing more fat or you're maintaining muscle or you're gaining muscle. So I find the statement of like eating more than 75 grams of protein per day, making people gain weight and implying potentially gaining fat, like that doesn't really, I'm not really sure how that would happen, but...

Melanie Avalon:
It's really interesting because like you just said, I've just read so many studies about adding protein and I just, it's everything that you just said. Like normally there's, if there's weight gain, it's in the form of muscle. Typically it helps with satiety, supportive of metabolism. And then just 75 grams seems really low. It makes me wonder almost, but although I asked her this, but it makes me wonder if people are, if protein is almost a proxy for just adding food. Like people are trying to add protein, but really they're adding like not just pure protein. Maybe they're adding protein and a lot of fat, like a high calorie addition.

Vanessa Spina:
a good point because a lot of times protein does come with fat in it. It doesn't usually come with carbs, but it does come with fat in it. If you're eating animal protein, unless you're adding it, you know, just in the form of like pure whey protein isolate or pure like protein bread, which is just egg whites, or you're just adding egg whites or whatever, or zero fat yogurt. But usually that's in people who are a little more advanced when it comes to their protein, optimizing protein intake. So a lot of people when they just add protein, I guess they could be adding protein plus some fat. So maybe that's why it's a good point that could be happening. But the justification of the higher protein raising blood sugar and making people gain weight, I don't like that. I don't like that argument, or I don't like that stance because I don't think it's correct.

Melanie Avalon:
What's really interesting and so two things to that. I did go through a period of time where I was Eating a really I was basically just eating protein Like for a long time and when I did that I did have higher resting blood sugar levels Which is I find really interesting and then when I switched to a high Protein but like a high carb approach as well. So I was eating less protein I kind of basically like switched out the protein and added in tons of fruit that made my blood sugar levels go down which I thought was Really really interesting regardless of like that baseline blood sugar level. I Don't necessarily know that that was leading to weight gain per se

Vanessa Spina:
Right. And I was going to say a lot of people do see that and they automatically think that the higher blood sugar is the protein being turned into blood sugar, but that's often not what's happening. I've done a few podcasts with Dr. Don Lehman about this and he sort of explains like you also get higher morning blood sugar, whereas you wake up with a lower blood sugar if you're doing high carb and it just has to do with the body's storage and what's happening with glycogen and the liver, but it's not the protein being turned into the high blood sugar, which a lot of people believe for a long time, especially in the keto space, especially because of certain individuals that we won't speak of who basically said that like eating protein was essentially the same as eating chocolate cake because if you ate a lot of it, it would turn into glucose. And that's because they were seeing... Wait, somebody said that? Yeah, someone who will remain nameless popularized that concept in the keto space and it made a lot of people fear protein. And a lot of those people still fear eating higher protein to this day. And I was one of those people until I really delved into the science and started understanding it on a much deeper level and like learn biochemistry and learn how to interpret the stuff myself. When I couldn't do that for myself, I just believed what I heard from someone I thought was knowledgeable in the space. But yeah, it was this whole protein turns to chocolate cake and people just thought they had this higher resting blood sugar. It meant that it was the protein, but there's a lot of different factors why that's happening, but it's not as simple as like the protein is just turning into sugar and it's giving you higher blood sugar. But yeah, it's one of those old myths that just won't die. But I think there's still a lot of people who believe it. And so it's one of those things that grinds on me when I hear it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, well, actually also to that point, I also interviewed last week, Dr. Molly Maloof. She wrote a book called The Spark Factor. Yeah, it was a really, really good interview. I really enjoyed it. But she, I remember she said in her book, because I was revisiting the notes, because that's funny, I read her book, like, I think over a year ago, we just kept rescheduling, but she talks in her book about how the blood work of her patients, how people on low -carb, she talked about, like, trends she sees and how, yes, people on low -carb diets tend to have higher fasting blood sugar levels. You know, people on the vegan diets tend to have what seems like, you know, more preferable cholesterol panels. But she was saying that none of this is necessarily super good or super bad. It kind of just is what it is. Like, those are the trends that she sees. So I thought that was interesting. Speaking of all of this, and this actually relates to a question that we have. Did you listen to the episode 299? I pulled it up. It's a recent episode on Peter Tia's podcast with Luke Van Loon. I didn't, I didn't yet. Oh, my goodness. It's like the Vanessa episode. It is the Vanessa episode. Okay, so it's called the title is optimizing muscle protein synthesis, the crucial impact of protein quality and quantity and the key role of resistance training.

Vanessa Spina:
That's funny. I put that in my queue to listen to sometime this week. So good.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, awesome. It's a guy who basically, for fun, like for his job, he studies the metabolism of amino acids. Oh, wow. They said that in the beginning, I was like, I am in for a fun time. Like, so I'll talk about some of the stuff he said with a question that we have later. But yeah, one other last fun fact that I learned from Dr. Peltz. And again, really, so out of our whole conversation, that was the only thing that I did not, I really like did not agree with, but I really love people having different opinions and perspectives. I just think it's really healthy, even if I don't agree. But she talked about in her book and on the show that fasting, I hadn't heard about this before. There's something called microbial geography. And it's basically that the gut bacteria physically like have geography in your gut. And when you fast, they move away from the lining of the intestine. And it helps with like healing and the release of stem cells. And I thought that was super cool. I never heard that before. So fasting for the win.

Vanessa Spina:
I love when you interview someone and you learn something totally new or have some major insight or mind -blowing moment. It's such a... It's like, I feel like every interview is like mining gems, you know? And then you find them, you're like, I have a gem. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
That's how I feel, we feel the same. And I always preface it that way too when I bring up the gym to the person. I'm like, I'd say what you just say. I'm like, I love it when I find this fat, especially cause you and I are so saturated in this world. So we, it's a lot of the same stuff over and over, which is great cause we learn a lot. But when you find that thing you've like never heard before, it's very exciting.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I love that. And yes, saturated is a really good word for it.

Melanie Avalon:
all the saturation that was some fasting stuff what's new in your life we're going to

Vanessa Spina:
a dino park tomorrow. All my friends here, all my mom friends and their husbands and their kids and most of our friends here both have two little boys and two of my mom friends have a girl and a boy but one of them is really good friends. With Luca, they're all the same age and they're all super excited. There's a brand new dinosaur park that opened. We had a barbecue at our place on Saturday. It was the first barbecue of the season because we're getting really nice summer weather and it was super fun to have everyone over at our place and to host. It is crazy when we have all of us together because there's like six moms and then so six moms plus six husbands plus two kids each. So we're like 24 whenever we get together and it just keeps growing because we all keep having kids. So when we're all together, it's just a cacophony of sound. I was yelling pretty much the whole afternoon because there's just so much sound happening with all the kids playing together and running around and crazy but it's all joyful sounds, joyful fun. But anyway, we plan to go to this dinosaur park tomorrow and I'm really excited and I'm trying to get Luca pumped about dinosaurs because he hasn't really discovered them yet. We watched The Land Before Time which is like, do you know that movie?

Melanie Avalon:
So, here's a funny story. I don't know why, but for whatever reason, we didn't have the Lamb Before Time. We had the Lamb Before Time 2. Oh, is that a good one? Yes. It's the entire experience of the Lamb Before Time for me. And because that's all we had, I thought that was it. I thought it was the Lamb Before Time 2. I didn't realize there was a Lamb Before Time 1.

Vanessa Spina:
Now I'm wondering if that's what I saw because the one that we watched, the one that we watched on Sunday, so we're like, let's put the Land Before Time on for Luca. And it was like so old and so slow that I was like, this is not the movie I remember. Like I was really upset and like the second half I kind of like tuned out. Was Chomper in it?

Melanie Avalon:
I think he is like a key character, I think, in The Lamb Before Time 2, and I had a, I had a pup, a stuffed animal version of him. I think he was like a little baby Tyrannosaurus Rex or something, I'm not sure.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so yeah, there's like little foot. This is fresh in my mind because little foot. There's like spike ducky Sarah is the triceratops. That was the one that I really liked. Oh my goodness. Sarah. She's red, right? Yes and So when I was watching I was like this is not the land before time that I remember like I Was captivated by it when I was a kid and I was like always wanting to rewatch it You know since then and I watched on Sunday and I was like, this is not the movie I remember so I bet I saw that the second one too because it was Way probably like faster and more exciting because the one that we watched was like It was just too old for me. Like so I bet this is the one I'm gonna watch this one And see if this is the one that I watched also because it's like, okay So the first one it looks like came out in 1988 And the second one, you know in 1994 That's probably the one I saw it also in 1994 which like that makes sense Was also and it also the one that I watched also was like it had orchestra music I was like, I was sick kept saying to pee. I'm like, I don't think this is like I don't remember there being orchestra music like none of this is like Resonating with me like it wasn't that experience that I thought I was gonna have where I'm like Oh, I'm like reliving That all those feelings like none of the feelings were there. So that's probably what it is

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. So we're solving the mystery in real time right now. I'm so happy that I'm here for this moment.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. Yeah, I'm really happy again, because I want to watch it with him and like, I wanted to feel all those same like things. And yeah,

Melanie Avalon:
I would watch it with you guys if I was there.

Vanessa Spina:
That would be awesome. You'd be probably as into it as we are. And then there's another one that cause I was like, what are their dinosaur movies there? And I was like, Jurassic Park is like wildly inappropriate for a two year old, but apparently there's like ice age. There's the ice age, like there's dinosaur. Apparently the second one or something has dinosaurs in it. And that made one of my mom friend's sons get really into dinosaurs. So I just want to like pump him up so that when we go there tomorrow, he's like, dinosaur.

Melanie Avalon:
You know, we're like schooling him fast, like we're like, watch these movies now.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, we're like, it's like a crash course or something. I'm going to look this one up. Maybe we'll have time to watch it after we record. Either way, it'll be really fun. But we're just going with all our friends. It's a day off here, May 1st in Prague. So everyone has a day off. And we're doing like a big picnic. It's going to be really, really fun day and kind of kick off the summer here. So I'm really excited for that.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I have a major important clarification question. So Dino Park, that could be so many things. It could be like one of those parks where you like dig in the sand, or it could be there's animatronics. There's animatronics. Okay, wait. Okay. Is it like, is it indoors? It's out.

Vanessa Spina:
and it's in a huge park that has like these cliff kind of rocks in it and I've never actually been to any kind of Dino Park. So that might explain why I'm so excited But also just mostly because I want to see you know Luca run around being like dinosaurs and being excited about it and Pete also is really Excited and we all are I think all the adults are too. So I'm not sure who's more excited. The kids are the adults Can you drink at the Dino Park? Probably I mean, I don't know if you know I mean, I know you know what Europe's like but in Czech most you like I'll go to the playground and people have beer like 10 in the morning like it's just normal here to be drinking any time of day and Drinking in public and you don't have to like hide it. Can you have open containers? Yeah, it's very like It's Europe. So people are very open with alcohol and it's such a different culture Like you'll walk by like a pub and they'll be like babies in there. Like it's like it's just so different How they they don't segregate it as much. It's just more part of life then Yeah, you you must love it when you come when you go to Germany or when you're in Europe

Melanie Avalon:
Well, so interestingly, I don't think I've been to Europe since being... Oh, well, no, actually I've been since I could drink, nevermind. I haven't really been like as my current self when I'm like a wine, like a wine drinker. No, when was the last time? That's actually a really good question. I don't think I have gone since my college trip.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, like London was just a day, but it wasn't really like getting a full European experience.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wait, I did go to Oh, yeah, you're right. Well, you remember my travels. I did go to London at Thanksgiving. That didn't really count, though. Quick comment on the Dino Park. There's one here. And, but it's indoors and it looks like it's more like universal studios. Not really. I don't know these animatronics at this Dino Park. Are they like, legit like big

Vanessa Spina:
I think so. So one of our friends went last week and she basically has been raving about it and that's why we're going. So the only details I know about it are from like the pictures that she sent and she said there were animatronics. I was like, wow, that's crazy. Cause yeah, I've never really, I haven't, you know, I grew up a lot in Asia and stuff. Like I missed out on a lot of the like amusement park kind of things, like even just going to zoos and stuff. Like we go to the zoo. We used to go like every week just cause I'm, I feel like I'm making up for things that I didn't do when I was growing up. So yeah, it, yeah, it should be pretty good. I'll report back and let you know.

Melanie Avalon:
I keep seeing ads for the one that they have here. It looks scary. You should go. I know I want to. I was trying to figure out if you could drink it, like if you could go at night. Because the idea of going during the day, but if I can go at night, like have drinks, like go with my sister, I guess I could not sneak in wine. But yeah. I had a fun moment though. Last week, I went to, did I tell you this? Do you remember the Veronica's, the band? They sing that song forever. Baby, we ain't going to live forever. If you heard it, you would know it. They also sing untouched. I went to see them and it was my first, it was my first like standing room only concert experience since college. You know, where you're just like standing and not sitting and dancing. So it was a really fun time. It was at a venue that leans towards the more like heavy metal goth route. And what was interesting is so I bought this like gothic summer black dress and everything. And I felt like I fit in so well, even though I'm like not the gothic type, but I felt so accepted. I was like, this community is very accepting of like strong aesthetics.

Vanessa Spina:
Right, that's true, and like black dresses.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, like I can wear like a massive black dress and like nobody looked, nobody thought anything of it. I was like, this is great. Even though I'm like nothing like that culture. Right.

Vanessa Spina:
It's just like the lack of judgment you were feeling. Yeah, it was it was

Melanie Avalon:
it was a really fun time. But okay, should we circle back to more fasting stuff? I'm trying to decide. I might actually, maybe since I had mentioned that study, we could actually talk about the question that was related to it, just to make sure we get to it. So Emily said, intense strength training. Is it okay to do intense strength training in the morning and then continue to fast until like 3 p .m.? And Kathleen said, I would like to know this as well. And this was both on Facebook. If people would like to ask questions, by the way, you can directly email questions at ipodcast .com. Or you can go to ipodcast .com. You can submit questions there. Or you can ask in my Facebook group, which is IF biohackers, intermittent fasting, plus real foods, plus life. So strength training. And this is really interesting because Vanessa and I were talking about this question beforehand. And I thought it was so interesting that we immediately had completely different interpretations of this question, which makes me, it just makes you realize like in life in general, how often, I mean, we just don't see the same world, you know? Like we're interpreting things differently all the time in life. It's so true. So for example, when I read this, I automatically thought, oh, she means when she says, is it okay? She means for her muscle gains from strength training if she fast until 3. But what were you thinking, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
So, when I read the question, I assumed that is it okay meant, is it okay to do it and still get autophagy or still get fat loss or still get whatever benefits from intermittent fasting? So, kind of like the opposite of what you're thinking.

Melanie Avalon:
So interesting. I just find it so interesting because it never even, it literally never even occurred to me to read it in the other way in my mind, which just goes to show, I mean, it's really, it's really no wonder people, not to make this a whole tangent, but in life that I understand why people get in so many arguments and confusion surrounding things because Misunderstandings. Yeah. Misunderstandings, especially because half the time you don't even realize it because it wouldn't be something where you need to actually like address it. So if we're just like engaging in life and talking, we're probably misunderstanding each other all the time, but it's nothing that wouldn't be clarified because it wouldn't need to be clarified. If that makes sense. That's why you got to put emojis on things. I know. Emojis. Friends. They're so underrated. I feel strongly about this. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Same, same. I was going to say though, so for me, when I read the questions, I try to put myself in the position of, you know, someone who's listening and writing in and I used to listen to this podcast, you know, for years. And so most of the questions that I found people were writing in about was, does this break my fast? Does this, if I do this, does it break my fast or does it interfere with my fasting somehow? But I do think that the podcast is, has been going through an evolution. Listeners have been going through an evolution podcast podcast itself and sort of our greater community where we sort of overlap have been undergoing this sort of evolution in terms of favoring like body composition changes, muscle gain, you know, optimizing protein intake, all these things. And I'm not speaking, I'm not trying to speak for all listeners, but I do think that there are a lot of listeners and I've noticed just in the quality of questions and you know, I don't mean the quality is any questions are better than others, but just in terms of the qualities of the questions have been more focused on muscle growth, muscle retention, body re -composition, fat loss, as opposed to like maybe just fasting, autophagy, weight loss, if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I've definitely seen that evolution. I noticed it as well.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've been here the whole time. So you definitely, and you've been, you know, reading the questions for years. So I could see why someone writing now, if this is like a recent question, and I think it might, it is, I think it, yeah, I came in February. So if it's a recent question, then yeah, it could be more related to, is it okay? Okay. So let me get to it, the actual question. So is it okay to do intense strength training in the morning and can you continue to fast until around 3pm? And is it then okay on my muscle gains? Is it then okay on my muscle repair and recovery? If that is the context of the question, then I would say that from my perspective, if your daily, you would want to eat some protein after your workout, probably within a couple of hours. And I'm basing this mostly on my interviews with Dr. Don Lehman, who I've spoken to specifically about this question. So he's probably basing that on research studies that he's done himself or that he's seen. I'm not basing this on any that I've actually personally read. So he always says, and he is the guru for me when it comes to, you know, muscle gain and protein intake and protein timing, that it's best to do, you can do a workout fasted and not eat before your workout, but you would want to time some protein, like a protein shake or a protein meal within a couple of hours of that workout and that being, you know, optimal in terms of repair and recovery, which is part of the muscle building process. So if that's what you're asking, then you might want to just get in a protein shake, like a lean protein shake an hour or two after your workout. You can also have it before, but he definitely says after the workout is optimal and, you know, waiting until, until after being favorable to having it before. So if that is the context of the question, if the question is just about, is it okay for me to do that, like in general, I would say, if you feel good doing it, you know, and you're checking in with yourself and you enjoy working out fasted and you feel fine, then not eating until around 3 p .m. And you actually maybe feel great, then it's definitely more than okay to do that. But some people don't like to work out fasted. They don't feel as energetic when they work out fasted than when they eat before. Some people have to eat after they work out because they feel really hungry or ravenous or after workout. And so in those situations, it may not be quote unquote, okay for you because you just don't feel great after. So, you know, if the context is just, is it okay in general, I would say, just check in with yourself and see how you feel, you know, personally from my own experience, you know, and I'm not recommending this to anyone else, but this is what I personally do is I work out fasted most days and I feel great. I feel great, you know, all throughout the morning, I feel great working out and then I still feel great after and it may, like that's just, it may be well adapted to my personal physiology, but I feel good doing that myself. But I do know that some people don't feel great. What's your opinion, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much. That was such a helpful and thorough answer. It's really interesting because historically, I feel like there's been so much discussion surrounding this. And I do think if you're like a, a bodybuilder, you know, competition level, this is what you do and everything. I think that's very different than the quote everyday person strength training. And my long story short takeaway is that if you're the everyday person strength training, I really don't think it's that big of a deal to eat right after your workout for strength training muscle gains. So the the interview that I'm really excited for you to listen to the Peter T one with Luke van loon. So they actually talked about this, they talked about it more in the context, though, of people eating punctuated protein throughout the day, and smaller meals versus like all at once and more of a one meal a day situation. And he said that the basically the the signaling that happens from the protein lasts longer, because basically protein intake itself can signal muscle protein synthesis. And so he was saying that having small amounts of protein throughout the day creates small little moments of doing that compared to having all at once that signal actually lasts way longer through to the next day. And I really said that's like on the eating side of things, not in the strength training side of things. But basically that the conversation was surrounding the signaling that happens for muscle building and how it can how the anabolic window surrounding that can actually last longer than, like immediately, it was a really, really good interview. But just from all the people I've interviewed throughout the years, and what I've read, I just keep coming back to the same thing, which is that it's what I just said, which is that I think if you're like a bodybuilder, a competition athlete, all of that, I think that's very different than the quote, everyday person. And for the everyday person, it seems that you have a pretty wide anabolic window from strength training in order to get those muscle gains. What's really interesting, I don't know if this is true, this is what they do. They say so like, for example, when I do the M sculpt that I do all the time, which is the intense muscle stimulation with these devices that use electrical stimulation to force muscle contractions, they say that the stimulus from that for muscle growth lasts for 90 days, which I don't know if that's accurate. So those are my thoughts. I'm not like super concerned about it. But if you want to be on the safe side, I don't think I don't think it can hurt to have protein sooner thereafter.

Vanessa Spina:
I think there's a difference between like what's optimal, you know, optimal. I think you would want to have it within an hour or two if you're very serious about either maintaining or gaining muscle and especially if you're over 40, if you are under 40 and you still have really high hormones and you don't have a hard time putting on muscle, then it may not be as serious for you. So in that case, I wouldn't worry about as much like you were saying, but I think it's great that we sort of also have different, a little bit different opinions on it.

Melanie Avalon:
I do too. And actually, I know, because Peter talks about this a lot, Peter Tia, who I still hopefully will meet someday. But I know in his practice, at least as of right now, they often have, I think, I don't know if it's particularly the women in general, but he likes having sort of like fasting windows, but they have small protein intakes during the fast, which is breaking a fast. But I guess it just goes to speak to what he thinks of the importance of supporting that muscle, that muscle. So yeah, I would say I would really encourage listeners to experiment and try different things and find what works for you, which is what we always come back to. And the cost benefits of... But it's key. Yeah, it's so key. And the cost benefits of some people, some people, it might work better for them to strength train and have protein right after and that's better for their muscle and their lifestyle. Some people might want to continue that, like they like the benefits they get from that extra fasting. So the great thing is you can play around and always try different things.

Vanessa Spina:
It's literally what I've been saying almost every week on my podcast, experiment and then find what works for you. That's really amazing that we all can experiment, ultimately try all the different things and then see how we feel best, what's working best for us. You can definitely tell with body scans, if you're making the muscle gains that you want to be making, if you're on track with that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. And again, I, like, I know nothing about the, the bodybuilder world, or I'm like, I'm not in that world and never have been. And that's a whole nother, the people who are like really, really intensely focused on muscle gain as a performance marker or as a, you know, a job, a lifestyle vocation, I would take a different approach if I were them.

Vanessa Spina:
You know, it's funny, I never was until I started understanding the connection really between our long -term health and wellness and muscle. And then I feel like we're all bodybuilders, like you're either building your body or you're not like you're, we're all really bodybuilders in some way or another, and you know, in terms of what muscle can do for your, an active muscle, muscle that you're actively working can do for your brain, for your longevity, for your overall health, your durability, it's made me really become not a, not about to step on a stage kind of bodybuilder, not in the gym three, four times a day, but in a different sense, like bodybuilder light or something. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I agree. I'm like obsessed with muscle. I've just never, like the hyper trophy, like the muscle that would not be a normal, the type of muscle that I don't think you would get normally unless you really, really like.

Vanessa Spina:
for 10, super 10 on the cover of, yeah, the magazines.

Melanie Avalon:
That's also really interesting, that whole world of aesthetics. Speaking about aesthetics, you know, because they all try to achieve this very idealized ideal, which I personally am not, like I don't find that attractive personally. So I find it really interesting how people are attracted to different body types and aesthetics and things. All right. Well, that was fun. And then picking up, this is picking up from last week, we're still making our way through, I posted in my Facebook group asking people, what was a mistake you made with intermittent fasting? And we got a lot of really good answers. And so last week we were talking about one that was talking about the role of intuitive eating. So that was a really nice discussion. So check that out if you like. That was episode 369. But I'm just going to read through some of the other ones. Sonia says snacking throughout her window and eating too much in general, not planning meals caused her to eat junk ravenously before the meal was ready, snacking throughout her window. So I guess she means like snacking in her eating window and eating too much. I feel like I read that one last week. Well, okay. And then next one, Holly, this is interesting. So Holly said, doing it for too long, it put my A1C in the pre -diabetic range. I switched to shorter fast and tracking macros and that worked to bring it down and stabilize my blood glucose levels. And then she said that wearing a CGM was a game changer for her. So this is really interesting because this is what we were talking about earlier in the show. What you hear that somebody who says that longer fasting caused them to become pre -diabetic. What are your thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, I can't speak specifically to this person's experience and what they had. I mean, you know, I guess anything is possible, but like at the beginning of the podcast, we were talking about how that's often interpreted as being the protein or sorry, not the protein as the intermittent fasting being the cause of higher blood sugar. I don't see how eating less and giving your body more time in the fasted state would lead to higher blood sugars. I don't think I've ever seen that personally, but I'm not saying it didn't happen to that person or that it can happen. I just, I don't know what the mechanism would be for that because as you stop eating and you go longer and longer periods of time without introducing food, your body is lowering insulin, breaking down stored energy, breaking down stored glucose, maybe dumping a little bit of glycogen here and there. Sometimes people have seen higher blood sugars when they're fasting because there's even like, you know, some glycerol coming from fat burning, but you're breaking down fat. You're in a catabolic mode, which is a breakdown mode. You're breaking down stored energy on your body in the form of fat stored sugar in your body in the form of glycogen. Hopefully you're not breaking down too much muscle, but I don't know how you could ever end up pre -diabetic for intermittent fasting. Like I'm just not sure. I just don't know what that mechanism is. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So it's really interesting. And actually, I think this will be way in the past now, but I think literally today on my Instagram, I have a reel with Gary Taubes where we talk about insulin. I'm wondering what we talk about because my social media manager posted it this morning and all I see is the word insulin. So I'm not sure what the clip is. I feel like it might be related to some of this. So something really interesting about this is, so people's blood cause of high blood sugar and pre -diabetics and diabetics is from what they're eating, which indirectly, I guess that's the, maybe the root cause, but it's really the liver releasing glucose into the bloodstream and keeping it at a higher resting blood sugar rate. So it kind of comes back to a liver issue there. And so somebody might be fasting and their liver is just releasing, keeping them at higher blood sugar levels. And then with dietary modifications, fasting modifications, they change the system and then they're experiencing lower blood sugar levels. And I feel like, again, this is kind of like what you were saying. I can't speak to this specific person to Holly and what happened in her experience. But I feel like oftentimes people might try intermittent fasting with a certain dietary approach. And it's like they're not fasting long enough to really lower their blood sugar levels and or just coupled with the dietary choices they're making. Like I can see how people would get into a state where they're quote fasting, but because of the whole pattern of everything they're doing with their food and their fasting, they're just getting to a place where they're never really intensely lowering their blood sugar levels. And they're kind of so I'm really glad that Holly did use a CGM. And that was a game changer for her. So that actually showed her what was happening to her blood sugar constantly with her fasting and her eating. And so I love hearing that. And for listeners who are not familiar, a continuous glucose monitor, it's a device that you put on your arm. And then it constantly measures your blood sugar throughout the day. So you can see how you react to your fast and your food and all the things. And we go to NutriSense.io/ifpodcast, probably using the code IF Podcast, you should get a discount for that. But yeah, I'm similar to Vanessa in that it's hard to say or know that it's actually the fasting that is causing a pre -diabetic response. I think it's probably more a misinterpretation of the entirety of everything that is causing it. I don't think it's literally the fasting causing it because the fasting itself should do the opposite.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean, you're breaking down stored energy and you would, no matter what, if you were doing fasting for a prolonged period of time, you would lower most of your metabolic markers, like your cardio metabolic markers would, would benefit from spending time in the fasted state. But I know our mutual friend, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, she always says that she routinely sees women who do higher protein diets have higher blood glucose and higher cortisol. And both times that we did podcasts together, we talked about it and she said she doesn't know why, but they know that it's like, it's benign. It's not something to worry about or to be concerned with. So I could see how that like, or potentially glycogen dumping or, you know, doing something where you're getting one sort of marker and maybe it's just the interpretation of it, as we were saying, that's off, but it definitely wouldn't. I think in most cases, unless there's some kind of condition that I'm not aware of, it wouldn't ever be able to give someone prediabetes.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I'll read some more. So Stacy said not fasting clean. What a difference. Sean said, feels like the trend has now moved to eat soon after waking. Don't snack and close your eating window as early as you can. I'm trying this, but I'm not hungry until noon. So it's been a challenge. Okay. I love hearing this, Sean, because this is an example where, you know, we keep going back to finding what works for you personally. And I feel like so often people, like we hear like, this is what we should be doing. Like, like she just said that she, she feels like she needs to eat right after waking, but she's generally not hungry until noon. I would listen to your body's signals. I think one of the amazing things about intermittent fasting is A, you're not struggling anymore with hunger signals. So you're not struggling not to eat and you're also not forcing yourself to eat when you don't want to eat. So I would encourage Sean to like, not stress about feeling like she has to eat right after waking up. Do you have thoughts on that?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, definitely. I know that in some cases, after doing a certain pattern for a long period of time, your body sort of adjusts to that. So you become used to never feeling hungry in the morning. And I think for people with leptin issues, people who have leptin resistance, having a meal within an hour or two of waking can be helpful in that specific situation. But that doesn't need to be applied to everyone, unless you have leptin resistance. I don't think it's something that you need to be concerned with. Or just in general, having to have a meal early in the morning. The only other situation that comes to mind is, again, if you are really, really serious about building muscle, maybe you're a bodybuilder, like we were saying earlier, or you're someone who is perhaps undermuscled and you're really on a muscle, you know, gaining journey, and it's very important to you, then, you know, there are things like having protein first thing in the morning, or even having it before bed, that can actually help with the muscle retention, because it halts muscle protein breakdown. But in all other situations, I wouldn't worry about having to eat first thing when you wake up, especially if you don't feel like you want to.

Melanie Avalon:
Love that. Is the Lepton, that Lepton reset protocol, was that like Jack Cruz or?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. Yeah. He's the one who really, I think popularized it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Mary said, not fasting clean. When I changed to an unsweetened toothpaste and chewing gum during my fasting window, I finally got all the benefits. Now I always fast clean or not at all. Oh, wow. That's really intense that the toothpaste... Well, all the chewing gum. Oh, yeah. Chewing gum. I mean, if you think about it, if you're chewing gum like flavored gum during your fast, you're literally... You're mechanically engaging in the eating mechanics of your body and you're getting flavor. It's just telling your body everything, which is the opposite of fasting. So I think people, if they're chewing gum, they might see incredible differences if they stop kind of like Mary did. Oh, Jessica. Jessica said starting. So I guess fasting did not work for Jessica. I'd be really curious what she tried. Becca said not doing ADF from the beginning. It has definitely made a difference for me. I feel better, look better, and do very well on it versus 24 hour IF. So ADF is alternate day fasting and there are different manifestations of it, but it's often where around two days a week, you fast either completely so you don't have anything or you have like around 500 calories or so. What I find interesting about ADF is I feel like some people, it works really, really well. Like Becca, it really, really helped her. Me, I'm not an ADF -er. I need to have my big massive meal every day. Do you like ADF, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I'm the same. I like to just have yeah one big feast usually or two meals But you know five days of the week right now. I'm doing that that pattern I I just love it. I'm just having one one big meal and it for me. I need to do similar things day -to -day Like doing things like changing it up based on which week you're in your cycle and all that Like I just it's just too much for me. Like it has to be something Simple and repeatable. Yeah, and I'm similar to you in that sense

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I'm the same way. I'm glad you mentioned that about the cycle because like, that's what Dr. Peltz's program is really all about is syncing it up to your cycle, which I feel like probably helps so many women and is great for me personally. I just, it's just like a lot, I just like having my system and I'm good. And I actually asked her that I asked her, I said, if you are doing intermittent fasting and like you feel great and you're not really changing it up, do you need to change for your cycle? And she said that if it's really working for you, like keep on keeping on, but she does suggest the one thing that she suggests people honor from her approach is fasting less, how was it? Okay. There's two times that she wants you to fast less. She wants you to fast less right before your cycle, as well as during ovulation.

Vanessa Spina:
I've heard that from other people before. I do think it can make sense for people, especially if you're like on a fertility journey and stuff like that. But it, yeah, I think definitely like I've heard people talk about those two periods of time as being a little bit more sensitive or times when you need more calories because your metabolic rate is higher.

Melanie Avalon:
it was that. And also, so she talks about how she says estrogen is like fasting's friend because it goes well with like a lower carb approach and all the things and progesterone preferentially quote prefers carbs and glucose. And so I guess from a hormonal profile right before your cycle, your progesterone is high and you need more carbs and it's kind of, I guess contrary to fasting. And then with the ovulation, I find that really interesting because the ovulation seems to be a time of like when you're feeling really great and everything, which I would want to do like more fasting. Yeah, I find a really interesting perspective, but she did so her recommendation was, I don't remember if it was to do both of those or one of those, but it had something to do with that. Like she did think that that could have a really beneficial effect for most women. So yeah, there are a few more, but I think we can, we can save them for next time.

Vanessa Spina:
Just one thing, when you're talking about her recommendations, is it like extended fasting, like longer than 48 hours kind of fasting or longer than 24 hours? Or is that like intraday, like even just like a 16 -8?

Melanie Avalon:
Just in general, like her approach.

Vanessa Spina:
those recommendations with, you know, the cycle.

Melanie Avalon:
It's not longer fasting. She does talk about, it's mostly within a day, like the amount of hours that you fast.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay, I thought she was, I thought maybe she was a person who was recommending like extended fasting.

Melanie Avalon:
She does, but not as part of the protocol. It's more, it can be beneficial to do some longer fasts at different times, depending based on where you are hormonally, but it's not part of the protocol. There are times you can do it, and she probably would suggest that you do it, but the actual different cycle moments, and I can double check this, but I'm pretty sure it's not extended fasting.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I was just curious what she's saying for people who are doing intermittent fasting, that they should not do any intermittent fasting the week before they get their cycle or before they ovulate.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So here are the exact things that she recommends. Pulling up my notes. So the power phase, that's days one to 10 and days 16 to 19 of your cycle. And that is okay. So she does recommend 13 up to 72 hours of fasting. So that's what I meant. Like it's not prescribed, but you can do it if you want longer. The manifestation phase, that's days 11 through 15. So I think that's when you are ovulating, I'm assuming. And during that time you fast less than 15 hours. And then the nurture phase, which is day 20 until your period. So that's the time like right before that I was talking about right before your cycle. And she doesn't want any fasting during that time.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that kind of plan. I felt my eyes going cross -eyed during that because I was just like, oh my gosh. It's a lot of things. It just feels kind of gimmicky. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon:
Kind of like when I read Elisa Fitti's book about this, and she gets really intense. Like she talks about what type of activities you do during every part of your cycle. And I'm like, that's, I mean, I'm really happy it works for people, but that, that's very overwhelming to me. Like if I had to change what I'm literally doing based on my cycle.

Vanessa Spina:
There's so many things that we have to, you know, keep up with. It just sounds, I don't like things that are overly complicated personally. Maybe it works for other people, but one thing that I have always said for years and years and years, like back when I first started my, my keto program, which I was running really extensively, like in 2017, 2018, 2019, I would always tell people to start it there. It was called the 20 day ketogenic girl challenge to start it in the first 10 days of their cycle, because you have that high estrogen. You kind of feel like superwoman. It's a great time to try anything new, like a new exercise program, a new diet, a new fasting, intermittent fasting approach. It's just a great time. Cause you get an extra boost from that. Whereas like in that last week before your cycle, when progesterone is dominant, you're like more, your metabolic rate is about two to 300 calories more. And you have cravings for certain foods and you're not as energetic and it's just the least ideal time to start something new. So I, I kind of get that, but that's probably like as far as I would take it.

Melanie Avalon:
I know I love that like the like the one the one starting off point is it's really overwhelming to me and I'm actually just going to read the question because we answered it because Hillary wanted to know how do you feel about if and women's hormones first doing more circadian rhythm of eating and so I feel like we sort of address that and how we feel.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. And so I know, so the leptin thing and eating breakfast within an hour or two of waking has really been gaining in popularity. One of my good friends, Sarah Kleiner, she really has been, you know, one of the leading voices in talking about leptin resistance and leptin sensitivity and how to correct it with the circadian health approaches, these like quantum health approaches with like using light and grounding and getting morning light and, you know, wearing blue blockers and all this stuff to help correct leptin. But again, it's really for people who have leptin resistance and it's based on the work of Dr. Jack Cruz. But I think that that has sort of seeped into like other or like the greater sort of consciousness in some of our communities of like fasting, paleo, keto, carnivore, you know, just whole foods approaches. And so a lot of people think that like one of our listeners who wrote in today that this is like the way to fast now is like to have breakfast within an hour or two of waking to not drink coffee, et cetera. But it's really a protocol for people who have leptin resistance, who are obese and have really high levels of leptin that their brain is not registering. But it's, it doesn't mean that it's for everyone else. And I, my role really, you know, when it comes to intermittent fasting is how do you feel? I think, do you feel good doing it? And I think it's such an important question because personally, I've had times where I don't feel good eating one meal a day or I haven't, where I've wanted to have two meals a day or when I'm traveling and having breakfast and dinner or having lunch and dinner or whatever works better for me. Right now I happen to be back in a period of time where one meal a day, five days a week is amazing. It's really helping me, especially with my mental clarity when I'm working and podcasting and it gives me more time in the day to not be preparing meals and cleaning up, et cetera. But I've had times where it just didn't feel great or when, you know, you're doing it and you're looking at the clock or you're like, oh, like a couple more hours until I can eat or you are feeling hungry. Like those are signals that you probably should eat or that it would probably serve you too. But if you're feeling great when you're doing whichever kind of form, ADF, 16, eight, 24, like whatever approach you're doing, if you're feeling great, then it's probably working for you. And if you're not feeling good, you're white knuckling it maybe because you're not fully fat adapted or for whatever other reason, maybe it's your cortisol. Maybe your cortisol is already quite high from having a busy or stressful schedule, then adding in a quote unquote stressor of intermittent fasting. It could just not be the right timing for you or it could just not be great fit for your physiology. So it's so important to check in with yourself, see how you feel. Do you feel better having breakfast or do you feel better skipping breakfast and fasting until noon? It's all your experience and how you feel and what works best for you based on your current, you know, state and even like your current health and everything.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that so much. We're just still on the same page and thank you for sharing, you know, your specific experience because I think it adds a really good example of what this looks like to practically, you know, have your lifestyle being the way it is or what you're going through and how a different intermittent fasting style might support you at that time, like with your busy mom this and doing all the things and you know, this one meal a day approach is working really well for you right now, which is so awesome.

Vanessa Spina:
And then on the weekend, we like, I often have breakfast, but sometimes I don't, it's just, just listening and getting the feedback and seeing how you feel. And that that's just the most important thing.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. I love it. So for listeners, again, if you'd like to submit your own questions, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode370. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @MelanieAvalon. Vanessa is @KetogenicGirl. And I think that is all things. So anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had a great time with you on the episode today and with the questions that we had from listeners and can't wait for the next one. Neat.

Melanie Avalon:
to talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay, sounds good, talk to you then. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

May 13

Episode 369: Hair Recovery, Tension Headaches, Intuitive Eating, Dopamine High-Jacking, Ultra Processed Foods, Whole Foods, Disordered Eating, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 369 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

Butcherbox: Grass-fed beef, organic chicken, heritage pork, wild-caught seafood, nutrient-rich, raised sustainably the way nature intended, and shipped straight to your door! For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get salmon, chicken breast or steak tips—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

MD LOGIC: Unlock the power of nature with colostrum, a nutrient-rich first form of milk containing antibodies, growth factors, and various immune system components to support a stronger immune system, digestion, gut health, muscle recovery, and overall health and wellness! Try MD Logic's Colostrum and discover the benefits of one of nature's most powerful superfoods. Save 15% off with code IFCOLOSTRUM at mdlogichealth.com.

To submit your own questions, email Questions@IFPodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

AVALONX SPIRULINA: Spirulina is being formulated now! AvalonX supplements are free of toxic fillers and common allergens (including wheat, rice, gluten, dairy, shellfish, nuts, soy, eggs, and yeast), tested to be free of heavy metals and mold, and triple-tested for purity and potency. Get on the email list to stay up to date with all the special offers and news about Melanie's new supplements at avalonx.us/emaillistGet 10% off avalonx.us and mdlogichealth.com with the code MELANIEAVALON!

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get salmon, chicken breast or steak tips—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

MD LOGIC: Try MD Logic's Colostrum today and discover the benefits of one of nature's most powerful superfoods. Save 15% off with code IFCOLOSTRUM at mdlogichealth.com.

Listener Feedback: Alani - Every time I tried to do a longer fast over 19 hours, I kept getting these horrible tension headaches...

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 369 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 369 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I'm doing great, how are you?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm good. Have you listened? I will not make this all about Taylor Swift, but have you listened to her new tortured poets department album?

Vanessa Spina:
I haven't yet, but I really want to and listen to every, every lyric. I haven't yet. I'm guessing you have

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yes, it's okay. We'll have to report back. It's long and it's a journey.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, there's one podcast breakdown I saw that did it over I think an hour and a half. I'm just going through that. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Apparently the drama about it is everybody thought it was going to be mostly about her six year relationship with Joe Alwyn and most of the songs are actually about her like brief three or four month relationship with Matt Healy in between Joe Alwyn and the football guy.

Melanie Avalon:
Was that who's the football guy? Travis Kelsey? Yes. So that's that. I highly recommend. And non Taylor Swift related news, I think probably today, hopefully I will be submitting the invoice for everything to get my spirulina supplement going.

Melanie Avalon:
So that's very exciting. I've like hinted at it, but the reason I just feel like I've been talking about the supplement for so long. It's crazy how some things take so much longer than you anticipate, but have you tried spirulina or chlorella?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I'm obsessed. I take it every single day.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you like the spirit of Lena better, the chlorella, or the blend?

Vanessa Spina:
I take both. Yeah, I take both.

Melanie Avalon:
Everyday yeah okay that's awesome how much do you take.

Vanessa Spina:
So I take about, it works out to six or seven grams of each per day. So depending on which brand, like I have a few different brands. I have one like energy bets. I have one from, from Prague that I got locally.

Vanessa Spina:
That's also raw, spirulina and chlorella. And yeah, it works out to about like 30 tablets worth, but six or seven grams.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, then I probably take I probably take like 15 grams cuz I take like

Vanessa Spina:
Double that. 60.

Melanie Avalon:
90 tablets or so, yeah, or like 75. That's amazing. I love them. So basically what they are, for listeners, if they're not familiar, they're a blue -green, they're an algae, and they are just super, super rich in nutrients.

Melanie Avalon:
Like it's kind of ridiculous. The nutrient profile, they're just like pure nutrients. So when people think like, I'm not saying it's like a multivitamin or anything, but it's kind of like what it is.

Melanie Avalon:
They also have like, so they have like B vitamins and all the normal, you know, normal vitamins you would think of, iron, beta -carotene, but then they have like really specific nutrients. Like, so spirulina has glutathione in it, which is crazy, and superoxide dismutase.

Vanessa Spina:
That's the one I basically take it for.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. Like, Chlorella also has that. It has nucleic acids and CoQ10. Like, these really cool niche rogue nutrients. They're high in protein, they're a complete vegan protein, so they actually have all nine amino acids.

Melanie Avalon:
It's just really, really awesome. So the reason it's been taking so long is I had to find a good source because I am going to also ultimately make a spirulina, a chlorella, and a blend, but we're starting the spirulina.

Melanie Avalon:
I had to find a source, so I had to like, I'm really intense with the raising practices. So for spirulina, we finally found this amazing farm in Hawaii. And it's like, they're a super sustainable farm.

Melanie Avalon:
They have all these really cool practices that they do to support the planet and with their water use and their electric use. And it's just really, really cool. And then on top of that, we wanted to test it to make sure it was free of pesticides, heavy metals, all of those things.

Melanie Avalon:
We had to do that. But the hardest thing about it was it was really important to me to have the best that I could make. And I know there are single ingredient tablets on the market. And we kept doing, trying different formulations to make it a single ingredient.

Melanie Avalon:
And we just couldn't. There's no way to make that powder into a single tab and it be consistent and basically for it just to work. I mean, like so intense about it. I'm like, but it's on the market, so it can be done.

Melanie Avalon:
Spoiler alert, we tested other brands and they are not actually one ingredient. So then I felt better. I was like, okay, so I'm like trying to do the impossible here. So mine is going to have silica in it, a very, very tiny minute amount.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so small that I could actually not mention it and say it's one ingredient. That's how brands get away with doing that. But for me, it's really important to be like overwhelmingly transparent with everything I do.

Melanie Avalon:
So it does have a tiny bit of silica in it, but silica actually has its own array of health and benefits. So now I actually prefer it with the silica. Again, it's a super, super tiny amount. But that's my long winded way of saying why it's taken so long.

Melanie Avalon:
And then of course there was the whole art fiasco and I really wanted my mermaid on the cover and there was a mermaid on the cover. So get excited. But in any case, when this launches, I wish I had the actual launch date because I was just texting with our partner Scott about the invoice, but today's episode airs mid May.

Melanie Avalon:
So it'll probably be shortly thereafter. I'm so excited. I feel like it's been a while since I've launched a supplement. So and for listeners, there will be a launch special. Oh, and we're trying to fix the pricing to make it more affordable because I know it can be pretty expensive.

Melanie Avalon:
So I'm trying my hardest to make it as affordable as possible. So when it launches, it will be at Avalon x .us. Definitely get on my email list to get the updates so you don't miss the launch special.

Melanie Avalon:
And for that, that will be at Avalon x a b a l o n x .us slash email list. Okay, that's my exciting product update. Any updates from you?

Vanessa Spina:
I had a big thing happen in my life this week with regarding a supplement, which is that after 20 years of wearing hair extensions, I quit. I totally had them taken out. And the craziest thing is it's been like this whole like health hair journey for me, because when I was 17, I like turned vegetarian and vegan.

Vanessa Spina:
And my hair just really suffered from not getting enough protein and not getting enough nutrients when I was eating plant -based. But I was doing it because I thought it was the healthiest way to eat.

Vanessa Spina:
And my hair was the biggest, I guess, the worst thing that happened really during all that time of my health going downhill and declining when I went plant -based was that my hair really became so brittle and fine.

Vanessa Spina:
It just stopped growing past my shoulders, and I always had long hair. At one point, I had it down below my hips. I always had really long, nice, flowy, thick hair. And my hair just was like, it just wouldn't grow anymore.

Vanessa Spina:
So I started getting hair extensions when I was in my early 20s, and I just became addicted to it. So I would get them put in, and then I would have them for five to six months, and then I would switch them out, and I'd just been living like that for years and years and years.

Vanessa Spina:
And I felt like the last time that I went, right before the holidays, I had them switched out. And I was like, my hair, in between having them taken out and having the new ones put in, I was like, wait a second, my hair is crazy long now.

Vanessa Spina:
It is so long, and I remember thinking, having quite a pause in between having them taken out and put back in, that I was like, maybe I should just stop doing this. Why am I doing this anymore if my hair is so long?

Vanessa Spina:
It was too far into the process at that point. I just finished, got them put in, and then left. But it's been nagging on me ever since. So this week, I had them taken out actually yesterday, and it was crazy.

Vanessa Spina:
My hair now is longer than the extensions that I was having put in. So you would have to cut my hair to match the length of the extensions, because it's so long. And I know that it's because of this high -protein lifestyle that I've been doing for the last five years.

Vanessa Spina:
Hair is protein. It's keratin. And I know that my hair was suffering back then when I was plant -based for most of my adult life. And then in the last five years, really reversing everything and especially going high -protein, I can see the effects of it.

Vanessa Spina:
And it's the most incredible feeling for me to be able to touch my scalp, run my fingers through my hair, and not have any bonds or anything in there. You get used to it, and you don't really notice that they're there anymore.

Vanessa Spina:
But oh my gosh, it just feels amazing. And I just can't get over the fact that my hair is so long and full again. And it just feels so natural and nice. And I actually feel prettier without them in, because it must be some kind of, I don't know, just maybe some maturity that I'm having as well.

Vanessa Spina:
But it's an amazing feeling. I got back yesterday, and Pete was like, wow, this is really nice. And I kept making him touch my head all night. Touch my head again. Touch my hair. And he was like, yeah, it's great.

Vanessa Spina:
For someone who always loved having long hair in my whole life, the fact that I sort of accepted, this is just going to be how it is for me. For the rest of my life, I'm just going to have to wear hair extensions.

Vanessa Spina:
And the fact that I could take them out and be sitting here and just stroking my hair while I'm talking and I don't have anything in there is just the best feeling. So just on wellness, health journey, personal journey, there's so many things that are important, obviously, in terms of our overall health.

Vanessa Spina:
And hair is just a vanity thing maybe, but it's a big deal for most people to have nice hair, to have healthy hair. It's a reflection of your inner health, I think, too. And I couldn't just be more excited about this.

Vanessa Spina:
So that's my personal update. And it's really fresh because it just happened yesterday. So this morning was the first time I woke up and I didn't have all these extensions in. I blow dried my hair, and it was just my hair.

Vanessa Spina:
And it's not as luscious and thick as it was with the extensions. And I have some split ends, but it's my hair. You know what I mean? It's just such a cool, cool feeling.

Melanie Avalon:
That is amazing. Okay, I have thoughts and questions. One, I had no idea you had extensions. Okay, so you, and that makes sense hearing what you said about how your hair was thick before. Like you look like the type of person, your hair looks like the type of hair that is naturally thick hair.

Melanie Avalon:
And maybe, and I understand that you had extensions in, so like how could I know that? But like, it makes sense to me what you're saying. Like it makes sense to me that you had really thick hair and then it wasn't and now it's thick again.

Melanie Avalon:
Like you're saying that at one point it was naturally, but lower waist anyways. Is that what you were saying?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, when I was up until I was around 12 or 13, my hair was down to my butt. It was so long. It was always really healthy and great. I definitely know. I made mistakes, especially going plant -based and not knowing.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm not saying that you can't do plant -based well, but I did not know how to get enough protein. I didn't know how to take spirulina and to take all these other things like protein powder, collagen, all this stuff that I know about now.

Vanessa Spina:
I didn't know that I was under eating protein for so many years. I talked to and hear from a lot of women who deal with hair issues. I think it can be insufficient calories. You're not getting enough calories in total.

Vanessa Spina:
A lot of times, it's insufficient protein. It's something that I'm super in such a profound way to our diet.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, 100%. I'm just thinking about it because like so like with my hair. Okay, so again, well, hey, my mind is just blown because they literally had no idea that you had extensions. Did you have the you had the bonds?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I had bonds in I posted a picture yesterday on my Instagram with my extensions out and it's just so wild to me that like that's just my hair like it's just my hair and it's so long and it's Just natural like it's crazy.

Vanessa Spina:
So yeah, it's I Guess like it they blended really well in my hair and I I don't think there's anything wrong with getting hair extensions like obviously I did it for a long time, but I think for me there was like this feeling with feeling like I had to always have them or like I had like I said, I had just like accepted that that was how it Is for me like oh my hair just like you know got really bad during this time in my life and it's never gonna fully recover and I'm just here to say like it can recover and It can look better than like you think it can or you know I don't want to say that you ever dreamed up because like, you know for me It's like returning back to how it used to be but it's amazing how you know just protein can make such a huge difference and collagen all these things and and You know eating a nutrient -dense diet and and all of that.

Vanessa Spina:
So

Melanie Avalon:
I completely agree and believe it. And so like, so my hair journey, so my hair is super thin, and it's always been thin. Like it's never been like, Oh, I'm so jealous of people who wear it's like down to, you know, like that could be at their waist, like just naturally.

Melanie Avalon:
So I've been getting extensions for you said you've been getting yours for 20 years, right?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, I'm rounding up, but like I started when I was like in maybe 15 years, like altogether.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too. Did you also have bonds in? Oh, yeah. So I was going to comment on that. I was going to comment on that and the diet aspect piece, because I've definitely seen. So basically, I have seen a huge difference in my hair, even though it's super, super thin, based on different journeys in my diet history.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so true, everything that you said, about how the protein intake and everything, you really see it in your hair. And I remember when I was hardcore supplementing collagen for a while, it was like when I had no money.

Melanie Avalon:
And I was like, I can't really afford this, because then I have to keep redying my, I mean, fixing my roots too often, you know? I can. Or getting a manicure. I can't afford to get a manicure this often.

Melanie Avalon:
I take the collagen, it grows so fast.

Vanessa Spina:
fast. I noticed that was one of the first things like when I started going higher protein, I was like, I have to get my manicures done so much more often. And, you know, I feel like I'm going to the hair salon for because I, you know, get my roots highlighted.

Vanessa Spina:
And it's like, it feels like it's like every month, it's like every six weeks, but it's fast.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, it's crazy. I did bonds for the longest time and this is just my own personal opinion. Did you ever try, first of all, this is not me trying to say go back to them, I'm so happy for you. I'm just curious, did you ever try tapens?

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so this is my PSA.

Vanessa Spina:
My best running candidate is.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, friends, if you do hair extensions ever, do tapens and never look back until you get like luscious normal hair like Vanessa and then look and then take them out. Yeah, they're so easy, they just like stick in and they're so light, you don't even feel them and then to replace them or take them out is so easy compared to the bonds where it takes like hours and hours and you have these individual bonds and then they pull your hair out and every time I would get them redone, I just felt like I would like shutter because I felt like my hair was getting, I could tell it was doing damage like the bond aspect of it to the hair.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think it definitely does.

Melanie Avalon:
Compared to the tape ins, I experience zero damage. It's nice because I can see how it's like my hair salon woman. I remember she made a comment probably a few years ago, and she was like, your hair is really getting, like your actual hair is getting better.

Melanie Avalon:
That probably was when I was really focusing more on nutrition and protein and all the things. It's so true, everything you said about you really, really see it in your hair and nails for sure. It's so true.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, that's one of the many reasons I'm so passionate about protein, like why I wanted to create tone protein and one of the reasons Scott and I are working on the collagen next, tone collagen. It's one of those things, whether you're a woman or a man, that hair and nails and skin, they're all such important aspects of beauty, right?

Vanessa Spina:
It's not about vanity. Again, when you are really well on the inside, your skin looks great, your hair looks great, your nails look great, they're strong, and it's just a reflection of what's happening inside.

Vanessa Spina:
So I think that's why it's so exciting. When your hair dresser says your hair is getting better, I totally know that feeling or you feel like you're getting compliments on your skin or that kind of stuff, it makes you want to do more of it and it makes you really glad that you are doing the things, taking the supplements and focusing on having an optimized protein intake and all that.

Vanessa Spina:
It just makes a huge difference. I love talking about it and sharing a little bit of our own personal experiences with it because for anyone who's listening who struggled with having fine hair, I'm not saying that you can have the most amazing hair ever.

Vanessa Spina:
Like I said, mine is definitely not as luscious without the extensions in, but you can improve it a lot and don't give up. If you've been someone who's maybe had a low protein intake for a long time and you've noticed a difference with your hair, there's definitely improvements that can be made.

Melanie Avalon:
And you can see it. I think you can see it relatively quickly in the hair and nails and especially with the collagen. I just remember every time I've done like a run of collagen. It's like shocking to me how fast I See the difference.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's true. Did you ever have had the experience? I remember I was so remember was nice living in LA having hair extensions because if I would go out with men like new men, I Knew it was like normal like everybody there has extensions almost so I was never I wasn't really concerned about them Like putting their hands in my hair and let me have me like explain and I moved to Atlanta and I'm like I'm like don't touch there Like on a day

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's, it's funny because like, you know, especially if you have them in like, they just kind of become a part of you. Like you don't really think about them. Yeah, you don't think about them. You don't think about them.

Vanessa Spina:
That's another thing that like, I'm really excited about is like, I like wearing my hair half up. And it's just like, nice feeling not to feel like they might be showing or something, you know, like that, that not that it bothered me that much, but it just made me feel sometimes like, like I wasn't well put together or something like if I had my hair like that.

Vanessa Spina:
So it's often doing hairstyles like that only wearing it half up at home, but I like wearing half up all the time, like outside of the house too, like not just in a ponytail or down. So it's fun to feel like now I can be a little bit more versatile with like different things that I do with it because I'm not worried about them showing.

Vanessa Spina:
And yeah, so that's, my big excitement this week. Yeah, it's a big, big thing after 15 years of coming to an end. That is super.

Melanie Avalon:
Did I tell you what they did when I was on Millionaire Matchmaker? No. So this was also in L .A. and so it's like a dating show with this woman Patti, something, something. It's a crazy experience, but in any case, she like wanted to do a makeover on me.

Melanie Avalon:
I remember that the producers came up to me and they were like, if Patti wants... So it was like before we had gone into... Have you watched that show before?

Vanessa Spina:
I have, and it's just launching again. It is. She's doing it with Nick Viall or something.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh man.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I did watch that show and I watched it with my brother once he was staying with me and we were like cracking up about it. But you were on it. I remember you were on it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I feel like I've told you about it before. So if I'm being repetitive, I apologize. It was an interesting experience because I honestly thought, I honestly thought all of the girls on the show, because this was in LA, so I thought it was like, when you respond to casting calls for these things, like there's, it's not like, I thought all the girls there were gonna be, wanna be actors like me.

Melanie Avalon:
I didn't think it was women actually trying to find true love.

Vanessa Spina:
That's what I thought it was. I thought it was like people who wanted to be on TV or... Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
like half the girls there were serious. Wow, mm -hmm. I remember I was like having a conversation with a girl and I was like, why are you here? And she was like, well, I just, you know, I haven't found that man yet and I just feel like this might be the way to do it.

Melanie Avalon:
And I was like, honey, like this is not, not the place, not the place. But in any case, the point of the story is the producers came up at one point and they were like, if Patty wants to do a makeover on you, you have to do it.

Melanie Avalon:
If you don't do it, you're gone from the show. Like it was really intense. And I was like, okay. Of course she picked me. And so then they like took me into this, it was so like B budget level. Like they just, it was like not a nice setup, but they were like, we're gonna like cut your hair and dye your hair and do all this stuff.

Melanie Avalon:
And they did. And it was fine because I knew I was about to get my hair extensions redone anyways. So I was like, oh, whatever. I'll just let them do what they do and then I'll fix it myself. But what's funny, what's funny is in the make, so then, so they cut it, they dyed it, they did stuff.

Melanie Avalon:
And then the actual like day where we're meeting the men, I'm just thinking about the men that were on it. But in any case, when we were doing that, that day they like put hair extensions in my hair and all this stuff.

Melanie Avalon:
And then when they were like doing the part where they're like, what makeover did you do to Melanie? Patty was like, well, we just did like color in a blowout. I'm like, you didn't do color in a blowout.

Melanie Avalon:
You like added extensions. Like this is not real hair. So that's my extension story. People lie on television is the point.

Vanessa Spina:
good for you for doing that there's no way i would ever let anyone do a makeover on me.

Melanie Avalon:
It was literally not normally. It was literally, I was literally getting my hair extensions, like I said, redone the next week. So I was like, if, if I'm going to get it redone anyways, just do whatever you want.

Melanie Avalon:
I remember, oh, I remember one time, sorry. And this is the last thing I was doing. Uh, I was doing stand and work on, I think in CIS or something long story short, the way one of the ways, I don't know if it's still this way, but one of the ways that you can get into the sag union is by getting three.

Melanie Avalon:
It's a long story, but three sag vouchers on TV shows, which are very hard to get because in order to get a voucher, you have to be sag. So it's like this weird catch 22 thing. It's a weird system. I had two, I needed one more.

Melanie Avalon:
They booked me as a stand -in and they were like, we're going to have to cut your hair if you do it. I think I was going to be like a dead body or something. I don't know, but, um, for one of the characters, but I remember it was this moment where they're like, we don't know if we're going to have to cut your hair.

Melanie Avalon:
Cause we don't know if they're going to have the scene. They might cut the scene. And so I remember like sitting in there and wardrobe and with hair and makeup. And I was like, can you just like cut my hair very, very last minute if they need me and the woman was so nice.

Melanie Avalon:
She like held out for me and then they didn't have the scene. So I got my sag voucher cause I was already there and they didn't cut my hair, but it was a moment where I almost like had to cut it super short.

Melanie Avalon:
And it was like a moment of like reflecting your life choices and like what matters to you at this moment.

Vanessa Spina:
There's so much, oh my goodness.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, don't even get me started. Oh, I can't, there's so much, that was a lot. So how can people best get your tone protein and learn about your new collagen when it's coming and all the things?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, if you go to tone protein .com, you can get the link there to purchase tone protein and you can also sign up there for the email list for tone college and if you want to stay tuned for when that is going to be out.

Vanessa Spina:
So exciting.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. I just love that we're able to make these supplements that really make a difference in our lives and then we get to make our perfect manifestation of them. It's just a wonderful situation and then to share it with everybody.

Vanessa Spina:
It is because oftentimes like with tone protein, like I had to create the protein that I wanted to be in the world. And I know you feel the same way with magnesium eight, you know, and now you're spirulina and it's like you want to create the things that you want to be in the world because you want to take them yourself selfishly.

Vanessa Spina:
Like this is the protein powder that I wanted to be out so that I could take it. And I also want all my friends and family to take it. And I also want everyone who's listening and in our communities to be able to take it if they want to, you know, and people ask us all the time about supplement recommendations and what we take.

Vanessa Spina:
And, you know, there's nothing you can recommend more, something more wholeheartedly than something you've actually created because you know, it's the highest quality, the purest cleanest. Like, and I know you, you have such high standards for what you create and put out in the world.

Vanessa Spina:
So I'm super excited. I can't wait to try your spirulina.

Melanie Avalon:
No, thank you. I feel the exact same way. And even with like the spirulina and chlorella's, I've always just been suspicious of, and I don't want to say suspicious, I don't want to put up bad vibes because the other brands I take, I love and I take currently because I don't have my own.

Melanie Avalon:
So I love it. But I just wanted to know exactly what was in there. And with mine, I know exactly what's in there. And I know, and I've like tested it and it tastes, oh, it tastes amazing. So yes. Oh, oh, and it's a tangent.

Melanie Avalon:
So silica, like I said, that we're using as the tiny additive is really, really great for hair, skin and nails. Like really, really amazing. So that also compliments. Okay. Shall we get into some fasting things?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I would love to. Okay. So to start things off, this is actually something that somebody posted in our Facebook group. So we thought we would share and read it. It's from Alani. I think that's probably how you say it.

Melanie Avalon:
So she says, thank you so very much to Melanie Avalon and Vanessa Spina for their great podcasts, all of them. I wrote into the I have podcast a while ago. I'm a 49 year old woman who's been doing intermittent fasting for about five years.

Melanie Avalon:
Thanks to this podcast. Every time I tried to do a longer fast over 19 hours, I kept getting these horrible tension headaches that would start in my shoulders and go up to my neck and head. My body was clearly telling me it wanted to eat, but because I wasn't hungry and because I wanted to lose a little weight around the middle and I wanted the benefits of fasting, I tried to override my body's feedback.

Melanie Avalon:
Thanks to Melanie and Vanessa's podcast advice, I now have changed things up. I eat a very high protein diet and instead of one meal a day, I have either breakfast and dinner or lunch and dinner. I fast overnight from 7 p .m.

Melanie Avalon:
to anywhere from 9 a .m. to noon. When I'm hungry, I eat. I lost eight pounds. I've kept it off by doing protein only days. I never knew about this until I heard Melanie talking about it on the podcast and then Vanessa talking about high protein diets and both of them talking about protein sparing modified fasts.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so much nicer eating only protein on a day instead of water and I don't have to worry about losing muscle and no tension headaches. I'll have a grass -fed finished steak in the beginning of the day and then at the end of the day, I'll have some ground turkey or ground chicken and hard -boiled eggs and some chocolate protein powder with milk for dessert.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm completely full and satiated. I have to admit that whenever I do one of these days, all I want is salad and blueberries and chocolate but I just tell myself I can eat them tomorrow. Each time I do one of these high protein days, my pants fit better and the weight stays off.

Melanie Avalon:
At first, I did them every Friday for about two months and then when I reached my goal weight of 133 pounds, I'm 5 '5". I do them whenever my pants get a little too tight around the belly button. Can't thank you enough for this incredible way of eating breakthrough.

Melanie Avalon:
So yeah, Vanessa actually flagged this. She saw this in a group and said we should read it and I agree. Do you have thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I love Alani and I just so appreciate her enthusiasm and I know she was saying that she was using the tone device as well in her, I think she had a follow up comment after her post there that she's been using it.

Vanessa Spina:
And she was saying that after she does the high protein days, she gets really high fat burning the next days. And it's just like really cool feedback. So there's so many different things that you can do and sort of like test out.

Vanessa Spina:
And she's been sending me really enthusiastic, excited emails about the tone device too. So I saw her post in the Facebook group and I was like, this is amazing. And we recently answered, it wasn't that long ago that I think she wrote in and we addressed that question.

Vanessa Spina:
So I love getting to do follow ups. If you ever are listening and asked a question and you want to give us an update, it's super fun to share updates, especially just amazing success stories like Alani's

Melanie Avalon:
I agree so much. And yeah, I love these days of of the protein only hacks. I feel like at least for me, it is really interesting how much how quickly I can see a change from it. And I think it's I think for me, it's probably more just for me, I lose any residual like water puffiness or inflammation.

Melanie Avalon:
Not that I have like a ton of that anyways, but there's something about like just the pure protein that really does it for me. And then I think it also really helps with the fat burning mode like Alani was experiencing.

Melanie Avalon:
So although when I do it, I go, I'm like really simple, I'll eat like just chicken or just some steak. I love having my moments of like a big meal of just protein. It's so fun. It's like a fun time.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it definitely feels like a feast and you it's such nutrient dense food and it feels so aligned with I think the way that humans were meant to eat because it's like it's a really satisfying experience.

Vanessa Spina:
And I feel like I'd really discovered that since eating high protein meals, that it just feels so it feels so right. You know, like, I think back, you know, ancestrally how it makes sense that that's how, you know, we would have, you know, thrived or that we'd be the descendants of people who were hunting and, you know, gathering and basically like not eating for periods of time and then eating a big feast like that.

Vanessa Spina:
It just makes sense that that's sort of like the most satisfying thing to sit down to like a big meal, eat as much as you want until you're fully full and then feel done and then just not think about food.

Vanessa Spina:
That was such a revolutionary thing for me, you know, just learning and discovering that you can have a meal and be so satisfied for it that like you don't have any noise about food or that like voice of being hungry or the fear about going out and being hungry or anything like that just completely goes away and how much energy that takes away from you when you are thinking about food that you can just function like a normal human being.

Vanessa Spina:
And I was so like under eating protein for so many years that that voice was so ever present for me. The only time that I ever felt that quiet before was when we would have Thanksgiving. And that's when like I made the connection because like Thanksgiving is the only other time that I eat that much meat, like I eat that much turkey.

Vanessa Spina:
And I was like that's the same feeling. I have the feeling that I have at Thanksgiving where I'm like I don't want to look at food for like a while. And that's for me like food piece, food freedom where I'm like I can go do things.

Vanessa Spina:
I can go like live my life. I can go write a book or create programs or you know work on a podcast or a project I'm really passionate about or like work on meaningful things for me as opposed to devoting time and energy to like what am I going to eat later or when can I eat again.

Vanessa Spina:
Like and that's you know we have this protein stat in us and it just all aligns with the way I think we're really like supposed to be.

Melanie Avalon:
Exactly. And then like you said, when you do actually eat, you actually get to eat, you actually get to, you don't have to worry about like restricting and you feel so satiated. And actually, this actually relates to, because we were going to pick up from last episode we were going through, we were reading comments on this post about mistakes that people have made with intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon:
And I'll reread one of the comments, which it's about intuitive eating. But I was just thinking right now the different, because you were just talking about that feeling you get when you have like a piece of really nourishing meat, like how good it feels.

Melanie Avalon:
And I was just thinking about there's two really intense feelings I reflect on getting from food. So one is that feeling and I often get it if it's like when I'm breaking my fast and if I like break my fast with like a nice like piece of salmon or a steak, like you just get this feeling of like satiation and peace and calm and like it feels nourishing.

Melanie Avalon:
I also get a really, really intense feeling that also feels really, really good if I were to eat like funfetti cake or like something like that. The reason I'm talking about it is it's also like a really, really good feeling to exist in, but it doesn't feel satisfying.

Melanie Avalon:
And it feels like you're just going to keep wanting more and more and more, even though they're both feelings of liking and enjoying the experience that you're having. And the reason I think this is important for the intuitive eating piece, and I should probably read the person's comment, I will in a moment, but I think it speaks to why it can be hard to do quote intuitive eating with quote all the things, because so many foods are engineered to make you feel like high eating them.

Melanie Avalon:
So the intuitive thing to do in that moment is to keep eating it. Because that's literally what it's telling your brain to do. So I'll actually just read, I'll read the person's comment. What I'm saying is that it's really hard to have intuition when your intuition from an evolutionary perspective would actually tell you to keep doing the bad thing.

Vanessa Spina:
Like when your brain is being hijacked.

Melanie Avalon:
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm, yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
I have food that's been scientifically optimized to make it addictive.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, my point is like, because I feel like in the intuitive eating moment, they'll say like, if you can't have just like a little piece of cake, and this is not the intention, but the messaging that I've got sometimes is like, Oh, if you can't moderate, if you can't just have a little piece, then you're not intuitively eating.

Melanie Avalon:
And I'm like, well, maybe some people can do that. But for some people, telling them just to have a little bit and be intuitive about that and not want to keep eating it is just not. It's just not what's happening at that moment.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I wonder if it goes back to the abstainers versus moderators thing, you know, because I really believe there are people who can have like, one bite even, like on fetticake or, you know, dark chocolate or whatever it is, and just feel like, like I had one cookie, like I'm good.

Vanessa Spina:
But there are those of us who are maybe abstainers who, you know, that is just like impossible to imagine. Like one would only leave you wanting more. It's a quote. It's like, one bite is never enough.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's like something about never enough and then something is about too many, right? Yeah, like never enough and too many. Yeah, I wish I could remember it. I mean, that sounds like a quote. One bite is never enough and too many.

Melanie Avalon:
If it's not, it is now. One text is too many and a thousand are never enough. That's talking about boys, but or girls.

Vanessa Spina:
One is too many and a thousand is never enough.

Melanie Avalon:
One drink is too many and a thousand is never enough. Yeah, one bite is too many and a thousand is never enough.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. I learned about this concept from Gretchen Rubin who I got to interview on my podcast. You should interview her sometime with you. You've had her on your podcast. Yeah. She's so amazing and she does low carb.

Vanessa Spina:
So we had so much fun. How did you connect with her?

Melanie Avalon:
originally.

Vanessa Spina:
I can't remember now. It was either on Instagram or Twitter, like on some social media, I think. I can find out and let you know. But she does low -carb. So she was also keen to talk to me about keto and stuff.

Vanessa Spina:
But she's the one I learned that concept from. And I really do think if you're a moderator, saying you can never have any is the torture in the same way that for an abstainer, having just a little bite is the same degree of torture.

Vanessa Spina:
So it's really hard for abstainers and moderators to fully understand each other because it's such an opposing way of being. But maybe if you're a moderator, you can intuitively eat. But I think for an abstainer, it's definitely a really hard concept.

Vanessa Spina:
And also because of the incredible point that you brought up, which is that it's really hard to eat intuitively when you're eating food that has actually been created in some cases in a lab to make you feel like one bite is never enough.

Vanessa Spina:
It's actually addictive and hijacking your brain in that moment. It's hijacking your dopamine receptors and it's creating this bliss point effect where it creates a super really high... So many units of dopamine are released that they go beyond anything natural.

Vanessa Spina:
And I learned this from Dr. Vera Tarmen. I'm interviewing her again, but she wrote some incredible research on processed food addiction. And she said there's certain units of dopamine our brains can handle.

Vanessa Spina:
Say you have an amazing moment in your life, like a birth or marriage or having sex. All these things have a certain upper limit of dopamine units where some of these foods go not just 100 or 200 units.

Vanessa Spina:
They go to like 400 or 500 units. And when you get that high, it creates this feeling that you then when you go back to baseline, you're now at a low. So you have to have more. It really creates an addictive response.

Vanessa Spina:
So how can you eat intuitively when you're eating food that's making you addicted to it? And for me, the last thing I'll say on this is I found intuitive eating when I tried the carnivore diet and I tried high protein because it was all whole foods like with nothing added.

Vanessa Spina:
And that's when I finally was able to feel that connection between like what my body actually needed and what I was giving it. And when I was done, where I find it impossible to do that with like these sort of franken foods and hyper processed foods.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, you literally said what I was about to say, which was, I'm so excited that you said that. Because I was thinking with Alani's question, it was almost like she was doing intuitive eating with what she found with the protein intake and everything.

Melanie Avalon:
To me, it kind of feels like for some people, like you just said, you can do this sort of intuitive eating once you're eating the foods that are actually sending the correct signals of satiety and everything and are not going to make you keep craving them.

Melanie Avalon:
Because then you can actually be intuitive and listen to when to stop. And another reason, so another reason they keep you hooked on them. So for example, Mark Shatsker, he wrote a book called The Dorito Effect and also the end of craving.

Melanie Avalon:
His thesis and the end of craving blew my mind. But he talks about how, and he might talk about the Dorito Effect as well, but basically not only do these foods taste so amazing and make us want to keep eating them and release and stimulate that super high dopamine response that Vanessa was talking about.

Melanie Avalon:
But they're devoid of nutrients, so our body gets super confused. Because normally in nature, foods that would taste good like that are attached to nutrients. So the body keeps craving because it's not getting any of the nutrients that it's needing on top of the fact that it's getting these super high dopamine responses that's creating an addictive pattern.

Melanie Avalon:
And then he talks about studies, and I wish they would do more studies on this, but he talks about studies where when people are basically given drinks that don't match, the calorie intake doesn't match the perceived energy level.

Melanie Avalon:
So because often we'll have like these junk foods that'll be also artificially sweetened or like partly artificially sweetened to like reduce the quote calories of them. In the studies that he references, when people have these drinks where there's a mismatch, like where they use some artificial sweeteners to reduce the calorie intake, they actually like their metabolism slows down.

Melanie Avalon:
Like they like don't burn the calories because the body freaks out because it doesn't know how to interpret the amount of calories coming in, not matching what it thinks there should be. And so it tells the body that there's like an uncertainty surrounding everything.

Melanie Avalon:
And so it puts the body into a, I don't, he literally talks about it. The people burn less calories when there's a mismatch, even if the thing they're eating has less calories. So you're like trying to quote, lose weight by having reduced calorie foods, but really you might be encouraging your body to burn less calories, which is just mind blowing to me.

Melanie Avalon:
So yes, you just can't win with these foods.

Vanessa Spina:
It's really, it's really such a good point. And you know, I, I'm all for intuitive eating. I just believe that for certain people, maybe for a lot of people, it can only truly, to me, the essence of it can only truly be practiced with whole foods.

Vanessa Spina:
Like it just can't be practiced with these foods that are unnatural or ultra processed. Like it's just never gonna, you're never going to get that feedback loop. That is like what you were just talking about where you're getting the right signals and then it's giving your body the right cues and all of that.

Vanessa Spina:
So, you know, I, I love the concept of eating intuitively. I feel like I eat intuitively now because I prioritize protein and I eat. My protein is a main component of my meals and that is the macronutrient.

Vanessa Spina:
I think that has the best feedback loop in the body in terms of satiety and everything. So, you know, I think that that should be a core component of anyone practicing intuitive eating. I think we have some questions.

Vanessa Spina:
Probably we're going to get to in the next episode about fasting and connecting that back to intuition and how you're feeling. And I think, I think that's a really important concept to, to apply to intermittent fasting or to, you know, any kind of lifestyle approach that you're doing.

Melanie Avalon:
100%. And I'll read the comment that we're talking about. So it was from Stephanie. Again, I posted a group asking what mistakes they made with intermittent fasting. I did want to read the rest and maybe next episode we can go through the rest of the comments.

Melanie Avalon:
But she said, there seems to be a trend in this post of a lot of people saying similar things. So perhaps this isn't the best approach for many people as from what I can see for many people it creates disordered eating.

Melanie Avalon:
If you just find a balanced diet, eat when you're hungry and listen to what your body is asking for and choose whole foods. So she does say choose whole foods. Your mind and body will be far more balanced than restricting and obsessing over a certain window or type of eating.

Melanie Avalon:
Following an intuitive eating approach I feel like is the most healthy way to find a healthy balance with food. I mean, I love a lot of what she says in there about, you know, choosing whole foods like we just talked about.

Melanie Avalon:
And I mean, the word I could go on hold soapbox about the word balanced diet. Like what does that even mean exactly? But I would interpret that as well. I think people don't know what does that mean?

Melanie Avalon:
It's a question. I feel like people often by that they mean like a mixed macro diet. I would use the word balanced diet as I would replace it with like a like a nutritious diet. So like a diet that's meeting all your nutritional needs.

Melanie Avalon:
I think is really important. That may be depending on where you're at. It may be lower carb lower fat. But I agree with what she says about, you know, listening to your body and eating when you're hungry and, and all of that.

Melanie Avalon:
But I don't think that because she talks about that's better than restricting and obsessing over a window or a type of eating. I do think some people, a lot of people having a restrict a quote restriction by having a window and quote obsessing but really it's just having rules in place about what you personally feel good eating or what you want to eat or don't want to eat.

Melanie Avalon:
I think some people can paint that as restriction and an obsession. But for others, it's just people have found the rules and boundaries that work for them and actually provide freedom. So it's kind of like, kind of like when we drive on the road, we have lanes that are rules and boundaries that you have to stay in.

Melanie Avalon:
And we don't say that that's being restrictive and obsessive. It's because that's actually that actually allows us to all drive safely and get to where we need to be going. It actually like provides freedom.

Vanessa Spina:
That's what I was just going to say. I was like, we restrict ourselves from running into heavy traffic on a highway because it keeps us alive. So that the term restriction for some reason has such a negative connotation when it comes to nutrition.

Vanessa Spina:
Like you should not restrict yourself from anything. Like, no, you should restrict yourself from eating like trans fats and you should restrict yourself from eating oxidized oils and, you know, things that, you know, are really bad for you.

Vanessa Spina:
You know, having a set period of time in which you choose to give your body digestive rest and allow your body to assimilate and break down the food that you just ate without eating again, I think is just like common sense.

Vanessa Spina:
Like, and, you know, a lot of us like these days in our modern lives, it's hard to even not snack between like breakfast and lunch and lunch and dinner and then dinner and bed, right? Like, so, you know, there's like not snacking.

Vanessa Spina:
Which is really important. And then there's, you know, choosing perhaps to take a period of time in your day where you just allow yourself to be in the facet state instead of being in that fed state perpetually.

Vanessa Spina:
And I, I think it's a, it's just really interesting how whenever you apply the word restriction to eating, it's like, Oh no, don't restrict yourself. But if it comes to like highway traffic restrictions are really important.

Vanessa Spina:
So it's, it's a really important analogy. And I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm not sure why it is that like a lot of us feel like you don't ever want to restrict yourself from anything like that somehow limiting you in a way when it actually is, could be keeping you really healthy.

Melanie Avalon:
kind of like with people's jobs. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people working a nine to five job would rather be at the beach all day, but they restrict themselves and go into the office and do their job because in the end, they want more the benefits that they get from job security and financial security for their family and hopefully they do enjoy their job as well.

Melanie Avalon:
Like we're always making choices. There's always lots of things we can want to do all the time. We have to make conscious decisions and choices of what best serves me not just now, but in the long term.

Melanie Avalon:
And by doing something, you're not doing something else. So you're technically always restricting yourself from something in a way.

Vanessa Spina:
That's what I was just going to say. It's restricting yourself from your employer being able to make you work on the weekend. That's another restriction, right? You restrict yourself from working once you leave the office.

Vanessa Spina:
Maybe we have smartphones, and that's kind of a great area. But in general, you restrict yourself from not working Saturday and Sunday, for example. That's a good thing. It's important for you to get rest.

Melanie Avalon:
Wait, like mind blown, you're, it's restricting, but it's literally choosing something, which is like the opposite of restriction, like the literal opposite. Oh man, think about that for a second. Let that marinate.

Vanessa Spina:
So I was saying on the last episode that I had just interviewed Rob Wolf and he was very passionate in our interview about the word restriction and about how it's like the main critique that is used, I guess, against him a lot that, you know, that like his paleo diet is like too restrictive and he's like, I'm helping people like reverse autoimmune conditions here.

Vanessa Spina:
Like, why is this, you know, so he said he was going to, he was starting to push back a little bit on that because, and if you follow him on social media, he pushes back on a lot of stuff lately. But yeah, I totally get the comment and, and where you're coming from.

Vanessa Spina:
And I, I, I think that that's, you know, you definitely don't want to be in a position where you feel like you're obsessing. That's something that again, like I want to address in some of the other questions that we have specifically about fasting on the next episode, because there's a lot of questions about fasting, stressing the body, et cetera.

Vanessa Spina:
And I think, you know, you have to really check in with yourself and ask yourself, like, is this something that is making me feel like bad? Like, like you were saying in your comments, like if the idea of having an eating window, like gives you stress or makes it feel like you're being too restrictive, it may not be for you, right?

Vanessa Spina:
Like, I think that's an important consideration. Exactly.

Melanie Avalon:
as the theme of this podcast often is, you have to find what works for you. We're all individual. But thank you for the comments, Stephanie. I really appreciate it. And for the emojis, she included nice emojis in it.

Melanie Avalon:
We love the emojis. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. I can't wait to dive more into all of this next episode. And for listeners, you can submit your own questions to the show by emailing questions at iapodcast .com, or you can go to iapodcast .com and you can submit questions there.

Melanie Avalon:
You can also ask questions in my Facebook group, I have biohackers, intermittent fasting plus real foods plus life. The show notes for today's episode will be at iapodcast .com slash episode 369. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about.

Melanie Avalon:
So definitely check that out. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are iapodcast. I am Melanie Avalon and Vanessa, where you can see her post, although this is a little bit in the future, so you might have to scroll back.

Melanie Avalon:
But the post of her hair without extensions is ketogenic girl. So, yep. Well, this has been so, so fabulous, Vanessa. I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina:
Sounds great. Talk to you next week. Bye 

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

May 06

Episode 368: Collagen, Natural Skincare, Defining Your Diet, Red Light Facials, Fasting Mistakes, Hormetic Stresses, High Protein, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 368 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

BLISSY: Get blissy in tons of colors, and risk-free for 60 nights, at blissy.com/ifpodcast, with the code IFPODCAST for 30% off!

Listener Q&A: Julie - Red Light Therapy for Face

Listener Q&A: What was a mistake you made with intermittent fasting?

Go To Victus88.Com And Use The Discount Code MELANIEAVALON For $55 Off Victus88 Testing!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 347 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.


Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 368 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I'm doing awesome. How are you? I am good. I feel like I'm still in the waiting period of so many things that are just coming, although by the time this comes out, maybe some of them will be out. I don't know, the spirulina, the third podcast, which I just need to bite the bullet and launch it. We have seven episodes recorded, so. Wow, good for you. Thank you. I'm excited about it. And then my super secret project. How about you? Are you doing any product development right now?

Vanessa Spina:
It's funny, I was actually I made a reel today on Instagram about my red light mask and I had so much fun doing it because it's like it's this thing it's like me trying to do me trying to fill all of my needs in the one hour after my kids go to bed and I've got like my red light mask on I'm lifting weights and I'm like having a protein shake and I'm watching a show at the same time and like are you watching

Melanie Avalon:
Watching love is blind. Yes. I feel like when you say that, is that part of some, is that part of that moment?

Vanessa Spina:
It's like, yeah, I'm like catching up on all the things in that one hour, you know, and it's what's cool is like, the point of it is that the red, the red light mask is hands free. And I genuinely, it genuinely frees me up to be able to do things like that. But I don't actually like work out wearing my red light mask. I'm usually staying on the couch or something like that. But I was just thinking today, just after dinner before we started recording those, like, I don't have actually any product, like, really any new products that I'm like, think that I'm going to make in terms of wellness devices. But we are working on Scott and I are working on the collagen, which I'm excited to be launching next, which is, oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, it's this really cool collagen that has a lot of scientific research behind it showing that it actually does help boost the collagen and elastin in the skin. And I'm really excited because I feel like I've been on this like skin health journey like in the last year. I kind of felt like I didn't do enough when I was like in my 20s when I was younger and like, it sort of was catching up with me. And I feel like I've been able to actually like really make huge progress. So, like, really getting my skincare routine down and like, learning about skincare and making sure like I'm using, you know, toner and serum like in the morning and night, which I wasn't for so many years, like I really thought you only needed moisturizer. And doing the red light therapy, like the panels and doing the mask and like the mask doing that every week and being really consistent with it, which I think is key to red light. And then finding collagen really actually has science behind it, like all these different things have been coming together. And I've been getting so many compliments lately on my skin. And it is putting me in the best, best mood, because like, I've always had like decent skin, but I, you know, no matter what, like, you can't hide the fact that like your, your skin is going to be affected by the things you do, like I spend a ton of time in the sun, like, I'm outside a lot, like I, you know, probably don't do all the things that, that I should have been doing all the time, you know, like wearing a big hat, like, hiding from the sun, all these years, etc. But I feel like I've made some like really big progress. And just, you know, when you're doing something, like, whether it's like you're on a fitness journey, or someone says, well, wow, like your arms look really fit, or like someone just notices whatever that you're doing, that's when it kind of becomes like real, you know, oh, yes, yeah, it's like someone says, like, yeah, just like my husband and some girlfriends recently just been like, you have amazing skin. And I'm like, wow, like, thank you. Because I didn't definitely didn't feel like that a year ago. And now I feel like it's, it's actually working. So I'm excited about that.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Okay. So many things. So many things. I completely, okay. Because you gave me your tone device, which I love. And you also sent me the mask and Vanessa, I feel so bad.

Vanessa Spina:
I can't save the rest!

Melanie Avalon:
You did. Yes. And I feel so bad because so I have this like section of my apartment where I put all the, all the products that come, they come in all the time. I'd put it under some things and I completely, I could just completely forgot. So like very recently, a few days ago, I was like, oh my goodness. Like, like jackpot. I've got to try it soon. Um, so it's so great that we're we're talking about this and we have a question about it. So I'll read that in a little bit to comment more on the skin stuff. I as well had that epiphany moment where, I mean, I went through a period of time where I was literally just using coconut oil, like to take off my makeup and then as a moisturizer, that was it. And then I was kind of doing like nothing. And then I like fell into the beauty counter world. It's funny. I was more excited about it for other people because I wasn't personally really using that many skincare products, but I was really passionate about the mission of finding endocrine disruptor free skincare makeup and like providing that need to people. And I liked their makeup, which I was using, but then the more I like learned about that and the more I heard people just like freaking out in a good way about the products, I was like, Oh, I got to like try some of these. And that's when I started realizing how much skincare products can like change your skin. So I think one of the biggest effects I see on my skin, have seen on my skin diet wise is and not to say that, okay, because you clearly are like experiencing the skin glow and it's amazing. So it's probably just the version of keto that I was doing. But when I switched from doing a keto diet to like a really high fruit diet, one of the reasons I stuck with that was it just made my skin glow like the fruit just like just does something magical. A lot of berries. So like, yeah. And I've gone through like pineapple, shwills, it's basically berries and used to be pineapple.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, there's a lot of antioxidants in the berries, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. But I remember I had like this validating moment, like you were talking about. I'd gone from like fruit, then I went back to keto. And then I went back to fruit one night and I went to the grocery store the next day. And literally the next day, like a woman walked up to me at the self checkout and was like, your skin is glowing. What do you do? Like such a timing moment because I just switched to fruit the night before. And I was like, I eat lots of fruit. And that was it. But then again, like the context of if you're eating lots of fruit and the context of, you know, like a high fat diet, I do not think would be a good thing, you know.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. Yeah. I don't eat that much fat anymore these days. Like to me, keto is like more burning the fat on your body. Like in a way, like being fat fueled, being able to tap into it, but it doesn't necessarily mean you have to be eating tons of that.

Melanie Avalon:
Could not agree more there needs to be a name for that. Yeah, that's not some crazy tangent Like that's not PSMF and that's not you know, let's come up with it right now

Vanessa Spina:
You know, when I think about like, I've been thinking about this actually this week, and I've thought about it a lot in like prior months as well, that I'm like, when people think of like, say someone is new to me, and they're like, Oh, she does keto, like, whatever they think I'm doing is probably nothing like what I'm actually doing, which people who like listen to my podcast, like follow what I do for a long time, no, it's like a high protein diet, with, you know, some healthy fats that are in the food, like when I have salmon, there's like healthy fats in that, etc. But I'm like fat fueled, and I'm tapping into my body fat, my ability to be fat fueled because I don't eat 300 grams of carbon a. So but I'm also like not eating no carb, you know, and I feel like we do somewhat similar, like I know it's not, I think our diets are more similar than they're not. So like, and I've also thought about like, is it? It's not protein spraying modified fasting, I don't do that every day. It's like unlimited high protein with like nutrient dense, low carb, berries and low glycemic foods, like lots of berries, lots of like nutrient dense vegetables that are also low glycemic, like low glycemic, high protein, but it's not paleo. Because I don't eat all the dates and like the sugar. Wait, why is it not paleo though? Well, I do lots of dairy. And I think paleo is not so much dairy. And I don't do any of the like dates and the nap like the fruit sugars like my impression of paleo is that you can have, you know, quite a bit of like sugary fruits, you know, the date bars and things like that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, you feel like you don't have to, but you can. And the dairy is like a maybe, you know, kind of depends. I've thought about this though, like this exact question, because a lot of the manifestation that I would do when I wasn't doing the fruit was just like tons of high lean protein and low carb, but I wasn't adding fat really. So the closest thing felt like PSMF, but I'm like, it's not PSMF because I'm not doing like the severely calorie restricted thing. We need a word for it.

Vanessa Spina:
Dr. Ted Naaman, I think like his like PE diet is probably the closest to what I do, but it's like I don't like calling it the PE diet, like it just doesn't, see he calls it like PE diet because it's protein to energy diet and I remember talking to him and I was like actually he kind of calls it the low energy diet because it's not a lot of energy calories but it's not an appealing name right because it makes it sound like you have low energy whereas the opposite, like I have a lot of energy but yeah he calls it P to E as in like the ratio of protein to energy but that's like too complicated although some people know of it like the PE diet like okay that's what Dr. Ted Naaman recommends although he is doing something a little bit different now with like the app and stuff that he's working with diet doctor.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, he is? What is he doing now?

Vanessa Spina:
They just launched this new like sort of app or platform and it has to do with like nutrient optimization and something called, is it the satiety factor or something? I interviewed him about it last year, like at the end of last year and it's on the tip of my tongue, but like I seriously, I'm in such a like mom brain fog. Like if we had recorded before I had dinner, maybe it would have been sharper, but they've been talking a lot about it on Twitter satiety per calorie. That's what it is satiety per calorie. This is like his new thing satiety per calorie. So maybe that's what he's been playing around with the name himself, but his whole like principle is eating to satiety, which is like high protein and then like he goes a little bit more high fiber, but everything is just like low carb, lots of lean protein. And lots of low carb, low glycemic, like so you could almost call it Mediterranean diet. But then again, they do eat like that, but then they put a lot of like olive oil on everything and they have grains. Yeah, there's grains too. So it's like there's a name missing. Maybe we'll come up with the next next name because it's it doesn't fully fit in paleo. It doesn't fully fit in keto. It doesn't fit in like Mediterranean to me. Like I call it high protein keto because there's like no sugar and I don't eat grains. So yeah, it's hard. It's like but I just know that calling a keto definitely is not like really appropriate. Although high protein keto maybe is closer because when people think keto, they think like you're eating high fat and that high protein, I tend to call it high protein modified keto because that's like the closest thing I've been able to find to it. But a lot of people don't realize that you don't have to be eating all the fat to be fat fueled or to be in that, you know, state of ketosis.

Melanie Avalon:
Like I said, I thought about this so much as well. And I always just use a lot of modifiers. I'm like, I do high protein, low fat, paleo, or I do high protein, high carb, low fat, paleo. That's what I normally say. Cause normally I'm existing in that high fruit world, but sometimes I normally say that I do high protein, low fat, high carb, paleo with fruit.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, see, it makes sense, but it's so complicated, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's like so many it's complicated. It's like those magnets where there's all those words on the magnet thing you like

Vanessa Spina:
I thought you were doing like before, maybe it's a little bit different now, or maybe you just change it up, but before you were doing a lot of like high protein, like lots of scallops and lots of other lean protein at night and like lots of blueberries and cucumbers, like is that, are you doing something different or is it still similar?

Melanie Avalon:
Yep, I'm still doing that. I did actually, every now and then I have, I don't know what it is, but every now and then I just have this really intense meat craving because normally I'm eating lots of fish and scallops like you said. Oh, the scallops. But every now and then I'm like, I just have meat craving and I'll just have a carnivore night and I'll just, but it's all lean and I literally would just go crazy and just eat lean meat like pounds and pounds and it's so fun.

Vanessa Spina:
I know you have those nights and I feel like if you ever make it to Prague, we'll go have like beef tartare because like they have the best.

Melanie Avalon:
The best. I love it. I need to go to like a Brazilian steakhouse sometime.

Vanessa Spina:
We do that or we have in the past like four or five years, like once a year, we'll go. There's a really good one here. It's called Brasileiro. I took my parents and they had never been before and like they still talk about how much they loved it. Like, because it's such a fun concept, right? Like you, you know, you have your like red, like green art on the table. And the one that we go to here has like a really nice buffet of like sushi, like a lot of sashimi and salads. And then you can have that. And then they bring also like all the cuts of meat. And it's like, it's just such a fun night. It's really, it's such a funny dining experience.

Melanie Avalon:
I need to go. Mm. Yeah. Thinking about it now. I have for like a long time ago, back when I lived in Memphis. So it's been a really, really long time in Memphis. They had Texas state Brazil, and then here they have Fogo de Ciao. There's one literally right next to me. So I have no excuse. That's the one I always hear about in the US. Yeah, I need to go. Oh, now I want to go. I think I'm gonna, I think I'm just gonna go. Can I just like go by myself? Just like pick out one night? I could go with people as well. Yeah, we should come up with a word for it though, because I've been thinking about that for a long time that there's not, not really a word for it.

Vanessa Spina:
And I'm sure a lot of our listeners also feel like there's no representation.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so listeners who have suggestions for what to call this, although it's interesting because like my version, because I sometimes do the version that's more like you and then I sometimes do the version with the fruit. So I feel like those are actually a little bit of two different things. What's the version with the fruit? Because I normally am doing like high carb fruit and not high carb fruit. It's low carb fruit, but it's high carb comma, high carb parentheses fruit.

Vanessa Spina:
Did you just have a moment when you're like listening to the podcast as one of our listeners? Mm -hmm. Yep.

Melanie Avalon:
Like we need some punctuation there to explain.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh my goodness.

Melanie Avalon:
So on that point, on that note, but for really, so for the high carb parenthesis fruit, like that's different than the high protein without the high carb parenthesis fruit. You do high protein, low carb fruit, some low carb fruit.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah so like pretty much every day I have like a high protein dinner and then after dinner I make a protein shake which has a cup of frozen berries in it and then I also have some dried freeze dried strawberries with yogurt so it's like strawberries blueberries raspberries blackberries like the berries the berry family which are actually keto approved but I never really ate them when I was doing like traditional like strict keto I just like avoided most fruit because I could get carried away with like carbs so easily but doing high protein I don't really I don't really add much fat to my foods I just eat the fat that's in foods like I was saying the fat that's in the steak or in the ribeye or in that comes with the eggs or whatever so I add I do add some fruit and especially when I've worked out that day I feel like I want more fruit but fruit for me is a berries like I don't really eat like avocado is kind of a berry is a fruit too not a berry a fruit but I don't really eat any other fruit other than that

Melanie Avalon:
So, yeah, I eat the similar fruit, but I just eat massive quantities. I'm like a fruititarian, except not with protein. That sounds awesome. It's so great. Yeah, I just love the fruit. You have pineapples, too, and berries? I did. Well, I went through a pineapple phase, and I would love to get back to the pineapple phase. Like, whenever I try to bring it back, it feels too sweet now. I don't know if I like... I don't know. I want to ease myself back in, because it's so anti -inflammatory, the pineapple, like crazy with the bromelain. What is it about the pineapple? The bromelain enzyme in it, which you can actually take as a supplement, but kind of like my seropeptase supplement, where it's an enzyme that breaks down protein, so the bromelain does that. And when I was eating tons of pineapple, we're talking entire pineapples every night, the inflammation reduction was just crazy. Wow, that's super interesting. Yeah, so we should come up with a word. Going back to the skin, we actually... I have a question. Can I read it to you about your mask? Yes, I would love it. So this is from Julie. The subject was red light therapy for face, and she said, Hello, ladies. Vanessa, I have a question for you concerning a red light therapy mask for the face. Unfortunately, I do not have your brand mask. Tone Lux. She says, but she's on her second one at home. She says, The first brand I used said to clean the skin, then apply a hyaluronic acid before using the mask. The second brand of masks that I am currently using says to wash your face and have nothing on the skin while wearing the mask, and then apply the hyaluronic acid after the red light therapy treatment. What do you recommend? Thanks.

Vanessa Spina:
I'll tell you what I personally do. I don't put anything on my face because I don't want anything to interfere with the red light wavelengths hitting the surface of the skin and also penetrating more deeply into the dermis layers. But I have also seen this. I have also seen other companies recommending that you can add serums and then use the red light at the same time. It's not something that I have ever personally tried, but I have seen it recommended and I think there could be some potential to it. I tried to look up some research on this and I didn't find anything specifically with hyaluronic acid and doing red light therapy. All the research that I relied on is you want to make sure that your face is clean. Definitely no SPF, no moisturizer, nothing like that could provide a barrier. So I think it would depend on the kind that you're using because you wouldn't want something that has an ingredient in it that's going to in any way block the red light wavelengths, if that makes sense. So I think as a general rule, like I would personally recommend just having bare skin. But if you have a mask or they recommend like some masks will say like use our serum with it. That serum probably, if the company has done their research and I'm going to assume that they have, wouldn't have any compounds or any, you know, ingredients in it that would block the red light. But I think like as a safe bet, just don't have anything. Just have like your raw skin, no makeup, just like fresh face. And you know, what's great about doing the skin and the face is that when you are looking to improve the health of your skin, you want the appearance of your skin, which is the outer part of your skin. Of course, you also want the wavelengths to penetrate more deeply. But in general, like you don't have to be all that close to the light, you can be, you know, about like anywhere from four to six inches away. And you only need like four minutes, like with a red light therapy panel that has a good amount of strength to it. When I wear the mask, I usually do 15 to 25 minutes. And that's using my mask, which is the Tomux crystal mask. So what's great about it is it is hands free though. So it's not like you have to sit in front of a panel for 15 to 25 minutes, you can just strap it onto your face. And you know, you can do other things if you want to, you can watch a show, you can read a book, I like do sticker books with my son Luca, in the morning when I'm doing mine. And like, it was a game changer for me to get the mask seriously, because with the panels, it was great until I had kids. And then it's like, my morning I'm spending with Luca, or I'm spending with Damien or both of them. And, you know, it's not that often that I have like, you know, 20 extra minutes after doing whatever, you know, taking a shower, whatever to do red light. So I do get to get it in here and there on the body. But I with the mask, I'm able to maintain that routine. And like I was saying earlier, the key really is consistency. So doing it, you know, four to five times a week, and doing that for at least like eight to 12 weeks. And then after that, you can probably get away with doing one to, you know, one or two times a week for maintenance. You know, having the mask is really great for that.

Melanie Avalon:
No, that's super helpful. It's funny thinking about, I have like a visceral response to, I cannot handle, I'm going to come up with so strange. So like if I were to put on a lotion and then put a mask on, on top of that, that would feel very uncomfortable to me.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I don't like the feeling of it either, the thought of it either.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so that's even like with clothing like if I were to put on like a lot of lotion and put clothing on top like I do not like that.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't like it either. And I think that's like one of the reasons that at the beginning, I was talking about how like, I haven't always been on the top of my like, on top of my skin. You know, routine is because like, I only like to put lotions and creams on at certain times, like, you know, I don't I also don't like putting all kinds of stuff on and then getting putting clothes on top of that. So it's like, I have to be very specific, you know, for me, it's like before bed, I can do it. And yeah, so I feel the same way.

Melanie Avalon:
It has to be like naked skin. Like I can't, I can't put on something and then put something on top. It's like a, no. Do you remember the TV show, Arthur? Did you watch that growing up? With the? I think he was an aardvark. The guy with the glasses? Yeah, and Buster, the bunny. I read the books. I didn't know there was a show. Oh yeah, there was a TV show. There was just one episode that is scarred in my head. His sister's name was D .W. and she was annoying and there was this one scene where he was sick and she came in and like got some lotion and like rubbed it on his chest and then they closed his shirt and I had like that image to this day. I'm like, I can't, I can't have like the, I could not be rubbed down with lotion and have like a shirt on top of it. That's what I was thinking about as like a five year old child watching that show. Okay, awesome. Well, I'm really excited to try it out. Oh, how can people get your mask?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, you can go to ketogenic girl and you should see it right there on the front page or just click on the menu go to the the tone luxe red light therapy collection so I have I have three different panels and then the crystal mask which is the the red light mask and it's it's a lot of fun to use it's got lots of different settings and there's also I'm looking at launching a new one that has a neck attachment also like for the neck that's nice yeah but it's it's great it's just like our lives are so busy these days you know it's it's so great if you can find something that can help you you know like

Melanie Avalon:
multitask and now I'm just thinking like when I can use it I was thinking I would use it in the sauna but then there's the idea of owned by the sauna I mean I have a sunlight and solo unit where your head is your head is outside of the unit but if my face sweats at all we could go back to that issue of the not liking the liquids on the skin with the device on top so when I'm like working on my prep docs I'm watching TV at night I can I could put it on then so I'm excited I'll have to try it and report back yeah so thank you so much for sending I'm so sorry that I like completely forgot I like didn't I didn't make like a mental

Vanessa Spina:
I also forgot.

Melanie Avalon:
You forgot to. Yeah. I didn't make like a mental registration note. Like I didn't like file it into my head as like product received. I think I just like put it, you know, down but now we know. So I will try it. Yeah, I can't wait to hear what you think. I'm very excited. I used to use one similar but it didn't have the eye cutouts and it was more like a dome type thing that you put over your face. It also had blue light for Yeah. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Acne yeah, what's funny is like I used to find all these masks looked really creepy So I didn't like wearing them But this one the one that I created the the crystal mask doesn't look creepy. It actually like looks kind of cute So it's not like like some of the masks you know, they remind me of like Jason like the horror movie like and they are a very creepy looking but I wanted to find one that was like not that creepy and then I was wearing it one day and Pete came in the room and he he didn't know that I was like testing them out and he was like The mask is kind of cute. I was like, it's gonna cute, right? So it's nice to wear it and not feel like you look like Jason from the mask or whatever

Melanie Avalon:
It's like a little masquerade adventure. It's like Cinderella story. Awesome. Well, I will report back on that. Okay. So friends, I asked a fun question in my Facebook group. And so the Facebook group is, I have biohackers, intermittent fasting, plus real foods plus life. So please come join, hang out with us there. I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna start doing this more, ask like random questions and get everybody's answers. So I got a lot of really good comments. I asked friends, what was a mistake you made with intermittent fasting? We got a lot of comments. Would you like to hear them? And then maybe we can share mistakes we made.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, this sounds so fun.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So, well, the first person who commented was kind of a wild card. Stewart said, the biggest intermittent fasting mistake I made was intermittent fasting. It's stress on the body, eat regular meals, but don't snack all day. And then there was a reply to it from Nicole, and she said she agrees. On that note, I do think some people, intermittent fasting might not be the best fit for their body, and they really are better eating regular meals throughout the day, and they can regulate that, and that's what works for them, and I'm all about it. At the same time, I believe most people can benefit from some sort of time -restricted eating in their life. And as far as his comment about its stress on the body, I would say it's stress on the body.

Vanessa Spina:
The opposite i think it's stressful for the body to be constantly in the fed state and not having that they just arrest and not be able to go into that like catabolic phase you know after meals.

Melanie Avalon:
That's such a good point that I think a lot of people don't talk about very much, which is, well, A, the digestive eating state as well is a stressful experience for the body, like digesting energy, you know, assimilating it, dealing with potential toxins and the activation of the immune system. Like the whole thing is not, even though it's associated with the parasympathetic rest and digestion mode, the actual experience is not necessarily easy, I guess, for the body. And what I think I'd like to elaborate on here is like this word stress, like he's just using the word stress as like an overarching, not quite clarified word, like a big category. But there's all these different types of stress and there's different degrees and I can have different implications based on context and how much of it and just so many things. So we know like hermetic stressors, I've heard this example made so many times by different podcasters, Peter Attia makes it a lot. And it's that if you were to look at the hormonal state and the metabolic state, just like the state of the body during exercise, especially like intense exercise, it would look on paper like the most horrible thing, how your blood sugars probably going up, stress hormones are being released, all these different things you would think, oh, that this is not a state we want to be in. And yet we know that exercise is one of the most beneficial things we can do if we're doing it in a natural way that's supporting the body. So this idea of like stress on the body, like you really, really need context and applying intermittent fasting in a way that is honoring the evolution of our bodies, where our bodies are accustomed to alternating between states of feeding and fasting. And when you're entering that fasted state, you're letting your body rest as far as like your digestion rest. You're finally tapping into fat stores so your body's not stressed with the blood sugar swings and like the glycemic control issue. So that's super beneficial. And we've also, certain quote, stress hormones are released, things like noradrenaline, maybe even cortisol, but those hormones in and of themselves aren't bad. They have a purpose and a place and they're serving a purpose in the fasted state of helping you have energy and tap into body fat stores and all these different things. So I really, really think context is key. So Stuart, I completely validate you that maybe intermittent fasting doesn't work for you. I would ask everybody to think more about this, is it stress on the body thing? So that was a long, do you have any other thoughts about that, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, there's, you know, a lot of mental factors, I think, as well, like, if you believe it's going to be stressful, or you believe it is stressful, you know, to do intermittent fasting, I just think that, you know, like, I'm more on the side, as we were just talking about that, perpetually being in the fed state is very stressful for the body having to deal with, you know, high blood sugar, and, you know, having to manage all of that and insulin and, you know, having a lot of fuel, like, circulating in the bloodstream, like, that's extremely stressful for the body to have to deal with and manage. So our modern lifestyles, we are perpetually consuming things. And, you know, whether it's food or information, news, like media, whatever. And I think that a lot of that really does put a lot of stress in the body. So for me, like, and for I think a lot of listeners, it's probably not the case for everyone, but intermittent fasting is that stress relief, it's like, okay, I can go back to my natural state, I can go back into that facet state for a period of the day, which is probably how ancestrally like I was, you know, designed to thrive in that sense. So definitely had a lot of a lot of comments on that. But I appreciate that being shared anyway, because like, it probably isn't for everyone. And if, if it is something that is stressing you out, there's always an adaptation period. And I'm sure you've talked about this, like multiple times on the podcast and past episodes. But, you know, it's it's the same with going off carbs or like lowering your carbs. There is an adaptation phase where during that period of time when you're first doing it, you might not feel amazing. And that might feel very stressful. But in general, I think it can be a wonderful thing for the body. So yeah, it depends on your how you think about it as well. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
So that was a great comment to start with. Laura said doing the same time every day and eating too many carbs in her eating window. So that's a good example. We talked about this last episode about, should you do the same time window every day or should you shake it up? And I'm the person who does better with the same time window, but Vanessa does better with different windows. So it sounds like Laura, she realized that she needs to be more of like a Vanessa. And for her, she was eating too many carbs in her eating window. Oh, oh, they're like, oh, I should also mention if they're like reactions. So the Stewart's thing had nine people liked that comment and five people liked Laura's. Judy said eating whatever she wanted. And then in parentheses, junk food in her eating window and 15 people agreed with that. I will comment on that briefly, which is that I think you're going from, eating standard American diet and junk food to intermittent fasting with junk food. Like you'll probably definitely see benefits. That said, the benefits just escalate and compound when you do make the healthy choices. And I think a benefit of intermittent fasting is, it also, for at least for me, it made me start craving more healthy, simple plain foods. Because when you go through that fasted period and then it's like time to have your eating window, you want like nourishing food, which is like protein and like food. It's not like a snack bar. It really just changes, at least for me, your perspective of what you crave, which I love. Andrea said adding lemon to her water. Clean fasting is so much easier. Kristin said eating carbs in her window. She definitely needs a more ketogenic approach. Kimmy said ending her eating window for the day with carbs. She wakes up hungry every time. So a lot of carb things here. I have a comment about that, but I'll save it for a little bit. Laura said over fasting and not eating enough within her window. One meal a day was terrible for me, even though at one time there was such a push for it when you'd hit a plateau. And I think this, again, goes back to finding what works for you. So for Laura sounds like she was probably not able to eat enough when she was doing a one meal a day approach. And I think that does happen for a lot of people. I also think some people can get enough in their one meal a day approach. I know I do. Vanessa has, when she does it, again, the theme of the show so often is really just finding what works for you. Annette said fasting for too long, more than three days. So that did not work for her. Sophia said one meal a day, that big meal caused so much inflammation for me. So I have a comment about that, but then Kelly actually commented on that and said, how do you know you had inflammation? Was it stomach bloating? What did you do that was different that helped? Just curious. I'll just comment on that. So the big meal causing inflammation and a one meal a day situation, there are a lot of factors that could be involved there. It's hard to know how much of that would be just from the concept of eating a big meal versus the foods you're eating in that meal. There's also a lot of digestive support you can do to help with bigger meals. So, and I plan to make my own versions of this next, hopefully after spirulina, which is taking HCL, Betaine HCL, that's essentially stomach acid and it can really help you break down proteins. And then you can take digestive enzymes as well to really help with breaking down protein as well as other different other different food components. So there's all these different, they often end in ACE like amylase, protease, lipase, and they're all to digest different things. So you know, lipase helps digest fat and amylases help digest starch, proteases help digest protein, cellulase helps digest cellulose. There's so many. I'm actually, one reason I'm really excited about formulating my digestive enzyme blend is I am really getting into the formulation of it and which ACEs to include. But point being, so formula day, if you are experiencing inflammation, I would look at your digestive support and I would also look at the actual food choices. Are you eating foods that are inflammatory for you? So you know, that could be like a food reaction type thing. I love Victus88. They're my favorite food sensitivity test. So they test your IgG, your IgE, and then really importantly, they attest your IgG4, which actually gives you tolerance. So because a lot of conventional food sensitivity tests just look at IgG, which is your reaction to a food, but they don't look at your IgG4, which can actually help with tolerance to that food, nor do they look at their C3D, which is something they can amplify a reaction. So it's possible that you might have like a tiny reaction IgG, but a C3D complement, which actually makes it way worse. So they have a very nuanced test and they give you the strength of the response, which a lot of the tests are just like on off, like you had IgG, you didn't have IgG. Point is, I really recommend this test to help find the foods that work for you. So maybe you won't have that inflammatory response in a one meal a day situation. So for that, you can go to MelanieAvalon.com/Victis88, V -I -C -T -U -S -8 -8, and use the coupon code MelanieAvalon, it will give you a discount. I forget how much it's for, but there is a discount with that. Going back to the list. So Erin said snacking too much in her window. That's interesting. Vanessa, what do you feel about snacking within the eating window?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean that I guess it sounds like it might be like a really long eating window, you know, like if if the eating window is like 12 hours or 10 hours or something, then it's kind of like, maybe she's saying that she's having kind of like, a couple of big meals, but then still snacking too much in between them. That would be my interpretation of it. So I understand, like, I guess that would probably not give you the results that you're looking for.

Melanie Avalon:
for. My interpretation is that there's probably at least two meals with like a time in between where she could not be eating if she so chose.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, sounds like that's what she maybe like she figured out we're guessing here.

Melanie Avalon:
We figured out what you're saying. Again, intermittent fasting, it's not really about restricting. The focus is on the time aspect restriction piece. That said, people, you can always optimize and make changes and you might find that you are eating too much in your eating window. So that could be a situation where she could just stop the snacking or she could shorten the eating window. So lots of different potential there. Zoe said, probably holding on to the idea of eating whatever, that's an all caps, whatever she wanted in her window, healthy food choices make a difference. I agree. Tracy said, oh, I was waiting for this one to come up, not eating enough protein to open my window and then going nuts on carbs to make up for it and the resulting hunger. Now I open with protein, I have a snack and then a few hours later I have a meal. And then Jane wanted to know what she opens her eating window with and she said she opens with cheese, nuts, any meat that she might have left over. And then typically she has fruit and maybe some peanut butter. Her large meal is at dinner time. Oh, wow. So she opens with a lot more than I was thinking reading her first question. I cannot agree more. Like when I was saying that earlier about how you crave food, more whole foods, I just really, there's such a magic, I think, to really making protein a foundational part of your meal. And especially if you open with it or start with it, it helps so much, I think, with satiety and getting full and not having to keep eating and eating and eating. Do you have other thoughts about the protein, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean, that's like the cornerstone of my entire approach to life now is like protein first, you know, making sure that first meal has protein in it is key to halt muscle protein breakdown. That's something I learned from Dr. Don Lehman. And so that's, that's key, but for me, it's also what helps me to feel so satiated. So like you and I have talked about this before. We both have a similar approach where it's just kind of like unlimited lean protein until I'm full. And then for me, I know that that approach just makes me feel so satisfied at my meal. And I don't have to think about food like the rest of the time. And I'm also doing so much good for my body in terms of body recomposition and, you know, shoring up that muscle development, muscle repair as well. So yeah, for the first meal of the day, and it's also great for leptin, you know, for your first meal of the day, if you are having an earlier meal, like if you're having a meal before dinner time to, to have protein 40 to 50 grams, at least that meal, but anytime you're having, you know, at least 30 grams, if it's animal protein, 35 grams, if it's plant protein, at least you're going to be initiating muscle protein synthesis, which is so good for you. But as I said, it's also going to help you really feel satisfied, which is like, for me, it's the key in like, in being able to be effortlessly lean is like, it's just managing hunger, like no one, no one wants to feel hungry. I think that's, that's like one of the biggest struggles when it comes to achieving like the body composition or level of fitness that you want. And, you know, being able to take care of that by prioritizing protein, and to me, like, I still think of it as like the magical macronutrient, because it's just so amazing at doing that.

Melanie Avalon:
I do too. And what's so interesting about it is to me, it just seems like so obvious that it does all of that and that it's so fulfilling and increases satiety and helps muscle. And like you said, it's this magical macronutrient. I forget that people don't, like so many people just don't know that, like they just literally don't know it. So it would never occur to them when they're like eating and eating and eating and hungry and hungry and hungry and can't get full that eating a certain type of food would actually make them feel full like with eating protein. Because I'll suggest this to sometimes I'll be, you know, talking to people and they're trying to troubleshoot while their diet's not working or what to do. And I'll just I'll start with that. I'll be like, you know, you could try really focusing on protein and that will be like a brand new idea to them. Like I need to remember that because to me, it's just like so obvious. But it's really exciting for people to experience that because it's something you really feel in your body, I think, like how much it helps everything. So okay, we have I love this one from Martin. He said, I started one mill a day at 68 years old rather than 20 years old. Like that's his biggest mistake is starting. Never too late to start. Maddie said, not eating enough. And turns out I do better with a morning window. So yes, finding the time it works for you. And then Mary answered that and said, interesting. I'm going to give that a try. Thank you. I love seeing the people like interacting and, you know, trying out different things. Nydia said overdoing it and not eating enough protein. Then she says she'll stop because I'll binge on bad food. So I think that's something good to comment on. If you find yourself in a pattern with intermittent fasting where you are going into these binge type, you know, cycles, I would really suggest looking at the approach that you're doing because something is not working, you know, for you. I really think, you know, it might be for you that you need like a longer eating window, or maybe you need to if you're a moderator type of person rather than extremist, maybe you need to include some of your, you know, treats in your eating windows, then you don't feel the need to like, binge on them. But the point is if anybody feels like their intermittent fasting pattern is having control over them rather than control over it, I would really encourage them to reevaluate and troubleshoot. Shannon said the biggest mistake I see people making is not eating enough protein. If you've only been doing two meals, you need to eat huge servings of protein. Kim says protein is hard to get in. Unfortunately, I use a protein drink as needed. And just a comment on that is, again, this is me coming from my perspective and the way I experience it. So when people find it hard to get enough protein, is it because they're filling up on other foods? I guess my question is, if you make protein the foundation of your meal, so like it's the main thing you're eating, the first thing you're eating, and then you fill out around that. I guess I wonder how people like I wonder what people's main issue is and struggling to get in enough protein. Do you have thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think it's a combination. I notice that the most when people are first trying to go higher protein, because it's just something that, like, none of us have ever done before. So you have to learn it, right? Like, it's always a bit of a learning curve. Like, what's, how do I add more protein? What are the lean proteins? Like, how do I, you know, you figure out different ways, and then eventually it becomes easier. So I think it's a combination of, at first, just not knowing how, and then, like, and just like what which food foods, you know, to add in order to get more protein. And also just that, because you don't know enough different ways of adding it, that you'll kind of be limited. So you're like, maybe you're just adding another chicken breast, and you're like, not enjoying that, or like finding it hard to eat all of that. So like, then you start figuring out like, oh, I can add it by having a protein shaker, I can add more egg whites to my scrambled eggs or omelet, or I can make protein bread, or I can like have more yogurt, or I can add like all these different things. I think once people sort of figure that out, then it gets easier. So that's been my experience is that it's just sort of a beginner's adaptation to it. And then not knowing like all the foods that are high protein that you, you can add in. And so like, it's a combination of those different things. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that totally makes sense. I'm also getting full if I didn't say that.

Vanessa Spina:
like getting full from it that you're like, what now I'm trying to hit like 40 or 50 grams and I'm full.

Melanie Avalon:
Which is such a good problem to have, I think, for a lot of, you know, like, let's not complain about this. This is what we thought. It's like the opposite problem of quote dieting normally. So, okay. Sunny said overeating during her window. Janice said fasting too long each day and not fasting according to her cycle. So that's another example of somebody who clearly does well with adjusting to her cycle, which again, we talked about this a little bit last episode. So check out that episode. Nikki doing it every day the same. So again, somebody who doesn't do well with the same. Kyoko said one meal a day. That was tough. I learned to listen to my body. I eat twice a day now, most days, and I feel and look better. Also previously, I did not pay attention to protein intake. That makes a huge difference. See friends for not making this up. Stephanie said, there seems to be a trend in this post of a lot of people saying similar things. So perhaps this isn't the best approach for many people as from what I can see for many people, it creates disordered eating. If you just find a balanced diet, eat when you're hungry and listen to what your body is asking for and choose whole foods, your mind and body will be far more balanced than restricting and obsessing over a certain window or type of eating following an intuitive eating approach. I feel is the most healthy way to find a healthy balance with food. Thank you so much for sharing Stephanie. And she has really wonderful emojis. She has the pink heart emoji with like the vibrations, which like the heart like vibrating, and then she has like the hands closed. I'm wondering Vanessa, because I have a lot of thoughts and we still have half of the responses and we're coming up on an hour. Should we put like a teaser there for next week and start with that next week?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I was gonna say that too.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. I actually talked about it a lot with, I recently had Matt and Wade from Bioptimizers back on my show. I love them. I've had them on so many, I think I've had them on this show three times and that show three times maybe. We ended talking about basically what she just said. Oh, I can't wait to hear all those thoughts. Yeah. Wade got passionate. I was like, whoa. It was like, it was like listening to, it was amazing.

Vanessa Spina:
Last time I interviewed Rob Wolf, he got really passionate, like pretty much the whole episode was him like pushing back on intuitive eating. Just like that and also the critiques of like, oh, these approaches are so restrictive, etc. And he's like, well, no, actually, like these approaches are helping people from debilitating conditions. So, you know, it's, yeah, the whole episode was him being passionate on this topic, and how he was saying like he was, he was going to start pushing back more at it. And I'm not talking about this particular comment in the Facebook group, but just in general about critiques on like these different lifestyle approaches, which, like lifestyle medicine is a thing, there's a huge amount of research behind it. And it is helping a lot of people. And it is scientifically validated, like it is evidence based, a lot of what we're talking about. It's a new movement to me, it's a revolution. But yeah, we're gonna talk about it on the next episode. So I'll leave it there.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I'll just really briefly comment. I think there's like a move where it almost takes away agency from people when they have these tools at their disposal where they could really improve their health and make changes. But there's these labels of it being too restrictive or it'll create too many issues. And so the interview I'm doing tomorrow with Lee Hood and Nathan Price all about the future of like healthcare and wellness. But they mentioned, for example, that there's pushback against genetic testing. So like getting your tests about APOE status or, you know, what do your genes say about your potential disease or your disease risk. And there's this idea that that creates too much anxiety. And, you know, people shouldn't know that, but they did a study and only 2% of people regretted getting back their genetic risk profiles. Not exactly the same thing, but it's just to wrap it up with a bow like this idea. I just love giving people agency when it comes to health and letting them make the choices they want to make that make them feel best in their body. So yeah, so that will be a teaser for next week. We can dive into it. And a few things for listeners before we go. Thank you so much for all of your comments and questions. We love you guys. You can submit your own questions by going to questions at iapodcast .com or you can go to iapodcast .com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at iapodcast .com slash episode 368. You can get all the stuff that we like at iapodcast .com slash stuff we like. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are I have podcast. I am @MelanieAvalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go? Oh,

Vanessa Spina:
I had the best time and really looking forward to the next episode where we pick things back up.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too. I will talk to you next week. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye 

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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