TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 249 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life yes for life. Gin and I are huge fans of a company called ButcherBox. As you guys know, it can be hard to get high-quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. ButcherBox is the solution. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free range organic chicken, heritage breed pork, nitrate free sugar free bacon, heritage breed hotdogs, and wild caught seafood, all directly to your door. When you become a member, you're joining a community that is focused on doing what's better for all parties. That means caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect, and enjoying better nourishing meals together. They go to great lengths to assure the highest quality so you can find actual 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef. If you've seen the Netflix documentary, Seaspiracy, you might be aware of fish fraud and problems in the seafood industry. ButcherBox maintains very, very high standards for that and the whole process is so easy. They deliver all of this directly to your door.  

Once you sign up, you choose your box and your delivery frequency. They offer five boxes, four curated box options as well as the popular custom box. So, with that one you can get exactly what you and your family love. They ship your order frozen at the peak freshness and packed in a 100% recyclable box and the shipping is always free. So basically, ButcherBox makes it easy, so that you can focus on cooking amazing meals, not spending hours searching for meat that meets your standards and save money in the process. And what's super amazing is ButcherBox makes sure their members are taken care of, and today, we have a special offer just for our listeners. ButcherBox is giving new members free ground beef for life. Yes, for life. You can sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and you will get two pounds of ground beef free in every order for the life of your membership. Just log on to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to claim this deal. And we'll put all this information in the show notes.  

One more thing before you jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often test high for lead and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels, and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.  

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now, enjoy the show. 

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 249 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: I'm doing fabulous. Clean(ish) is out, it's out, and I can stop stressing about it, and [gasps] it feels so good. 

Melanie Avalon: How did it go, the launch and everything?  

Gin Stephens: It went fantastic. It went great. I'm doing a book study in my community more than anything else. Obviously, you care that you've written a book that people will like, but the most important people to me are the people that are in my community. And the people going through the book study, and so far, I've gotten so much positive feedback from the community. People are saying things like, "Well, the part where you wrote about Will really opened my eyes, or my daughter's the same way, or that I understand so much more now, or I thought I was making good choices, and oh, my goodness. Now, I'm realizing I'm not." The one message I wanted to get across with the whole Clean(ish), even the title of it was that perfection is not expected nor required, and it's a process, and that you're in charge at all times. So, the fact that that message really seems to have come through is really important to me. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's so important. I think it's very unique perspective, at least in regards to stuff that is typically published on this. Because normally, when people are putting something out there, it's because they're-- I don't know. They're really wanting you to go really intense all in. So, it's really nice. I think it's very approachable.  

Gin Stephens: Well, the thing is, is that, you can't get rid of everything. You just can't. Especially, not all at once and it's a process. Now, the me that is living right here in 2022, if I went back in time to the me from five years ago, I might be overwhelmed at how different my life is now, but I've gotten there over time. Oh my gosh, I had a reminder of why it matters so much and it was yesterday. I rode to the upstate of South Carolina with my sister in her car and I still have a headache. She had one of those air freshener things in there. Oh my God, I got in and I was like, "Oh, I should have driven. Why am I riding this car?" I was like, "We got to put this in the back." But still, she had it in the air vent and I thought putting it in the back might help. No, it made my head hurt, my sinuses still feel inflamed. I was in her car for probably a total of six hours. My sinuses are inflamed, my head's been hurting a little bit the whole time. I just don't do well with those fragrances and now, I understand why. But I was in there long enough that it did make a difference in my bucket. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, every time I get in an Uber that has some sort of smell, I'm like, "Oh, my goodness. How was I doing this for so long?"  

Gin Stephens: Now, imagine, you had to ride there for six hours-- six hours in that Uber, it was too long. So, I told her I was like, "I don't know how--" She's like, "I don't even smell it and I don't know how--" I think it would change her life. But people are not always ready. My sister's not ready to hear that. So, I handed her a copy of Clean(ish) before we even went, So, I think that these changes, people don't realize. I will feel it because normally, I don't have any of these kinds of things in my home. I used to. I used to have those, I don't even if you're old enough to remember them, Melanie. There's Bath and Bodyworks plugins that you would plugin and they would-- 

Melanie Avalon: I did those in college. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Not Bath & Bodyworks, it was Target plugins. They're from Target.  

Gin Stephens: Well, the Bath & Bodyworks, once were really popular in the late 90s. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Febreze is what I'm thinking of.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, I had it in one of my classrooms. So, I thought it just smelled so nice and now, I'm thinking, "How much did that negatively affect the students in my classroom?" I'm so sorry that I did it but I didn't know. I didn't know any better. But the way I feel after riding in that car all this time, the way my head feels. Really drives home, how much better I normally feel. So, again, if anybody just feels just not themselves and they're like-- they are low level, don't feel fabulous, if you've got a bunch of plugin air freshener stuff, that makes more of a difference than you realize.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. There are alternatives essential oils that might work for people. Oh, and I didn't want to say, listeners, I'm not yet read Clean(ish). I read the books based on the timeline of when people are coming on the show. So, it's in the calendar. It has to be read at a certain time. I'm very excited to read it, though. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I hope that you'll love it. But at the end of each chapter, there's a part where people reflect and take action. That's really, the teacher in me coming out because it's taking stock of what you have and what little change could you make today without driving yourself crazy. Because that's really the key. I wasn't ready to hear everything five, 10 years ago. But every little step along the way, lowers your what you're putting into your bucket. Because you're going to ride in the Uber and smell it, and you don't need to freak out, and think you've ruined your health. But having it in your own car is a whole different thing where you're in there all the time. The dose over time does matter.  

Melanie Avalon: I did think about this, actually, because the last Uber I got in was very scented and I was thinking that, if I ever had to take a really long Uber somewhere, I would somehow clarify not to have. Because I think there's an option Uber, the comfort option. I don't know if you can put in a note, but I think I would make sure I got one without.  

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure but. 

Melanie Avalon: I think that should be an option.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I felt it should but I think it probably, people don't understand it enough to know. I certainly didn't. I was putting them in my classroom and how many children did I make their allergy load worse or even affect their behavior? This is before I had kids. It was the 90s is before I had Will. I stopped all of that once Will, I knew that he reacted to those artificial smells dramatically. We hadn't used them since but the fact that I've had a headache ever since is telling and I started to feel queasy right away also.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, you still have a headache?  

Gin Stephens: A little bit, yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.  

Gin Stephens: I really felt like it inflamed my sinuses. I sound like a big whiny baby but [laughs] it was very important, it reinforced to me, yes, it really, really does make a difference. I knew it already but I didn't whine to my sister the whole time, so, I'm just whining here. I kept my mouth shut the whole time. I said it one time to her and then I was like, "Okay, I'm just going to suck it up and I will always drive from now on."  

Melanie Avalon: You probably talk about this in the book but it's interesting how you can be more or less sensitive at different times of your life based on if your own internal bucket is filled up or not. For me, I went through a period, especially, when I had really intense mercury toxicity and everything like that. I could not even step in the aisle in the grocery store that has all the cleaning products and all the things. I would feel sick if I step in that aisle.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I actually did talk about that. It's the whole once your bucket is full, when you put more in it, that's when it overflows. But if your bucket is not full, that's really the whole premise of Clean(ish) is keeping your bucket level as low as you possibly can because you're going to get into an Uber or an elevator with someone who has on way too much cologne, you're going to have those experiences, and your body can handle it better if your bucket is lower. So, that's the whole premise, but it's a lot more detailed than that. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Super excited. So, for listeners, we'll put a link in the show notes to all the ways to get Clean(ish). Congratulations, it's very exciting.  

Gin Stephens: Yep. ginstephens.com/clean(ish) is a really good place to go. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Can I share my story with listeners? 

Gin Stephens: Please do. 

Melanie Avalon: So, listeners, you might already know this because you might have seen it on Instagram. But I got COVID. So, that's been fun. I do have it right now and what's interesting, though, and I again, I posted this on Instagram, but it hasn't been that bad for me, I think I probably got the Omicron variant because my symptoms match it and that's been said to be not as bad as the original or the Delta. I woke up with a little bit of a headache, which I just don't get headaches, and I don't think I would have thought, I don't know. It didn't seem bad enough to be COVID. So, I don't think I would have really thought it was COVID if my Oura ring hadn't pointed out things.  

So, I posted this on my Instagram, but so, the first day I had symptoms, you get a readiness score on your Oura ring which includes your heart rate variability, your respiration, your sleep, your body temperature, your resting heart rate, a few other things. It goes up to 100. My score is usually in the 70s or 80s, occasionally 90s. So, it was 60 and I'm just reading it right now and it said, "Pay attention, it said go easy, both your body temperature and resting heart rate are elevated. How are you feeling to help regain balance, give yourself time to recover today?" It actually said that my body temperature had gone up by 0.9 degrees. I think 0.9-- Oh, 0.8 degrees, even though, I wasn't getting a fever on any thermometer. So, I was like, "Oh, well, that's pretty telling." Then the next day, the readiness score dropped from a 60 to a 36, which I have never seen.  

Gin Stephens: You are not ready.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. I still didn't feel that bad but I was like, "Oh, there is something going on." So, I went and got tested, and I got a positive COVID test, two positive COVID tests because I wanted to double check. Then the next day I got a 28, and then the next day it actually started turning around. So, the next day, I got a 58, and then a 67, and then an 82, and I'm back today I think 81 again. This is the first time that I've-- because I really haven't gotten sick sick, I don't really remember the last time. So, this was the first time getting sick while having the Oura ring. You basically can track the progression of your illness on the ring, it really does know. That's very cool. But it's actually been really, really nice because you have to quarantine and so I cancelled all my appointments and it's like vacation. Like, I got to just work. I love working. Normally on vacation, you're not supposed to work but this isn't real vacation. This is resting vacation. So, I got to just work on stuff. It's been a really nice week.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm glad you're feeling good. That's the most important thing that it's been nice and mild, and I read something that talked about the Omicron colonizing the nasal passages more so than getting into the lungs, which is actually a positive as far as the severity of our symptoms. So, that doesn't mean that people aren't going to get sick from Omicron obviously and have to be hospitalized or whatever, or that we shouldn't still be cognizant, but you sound a little nasally, like you never have before. So, it sounds like it's right up there. It's in your nasal passages and your body's fighting it off like it's supposed to do.  

Melanie Avalon: Yep. I'm really grateful. It's nice. I felt very appreciative of my body during this. I'm like, "Go body."  

Gin Stephens: Been able to see it.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: So, how about your sense of taste and smell? That's the most fascinating symptom for me. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, ironically, even though, yesterday was the first day that my Oura ring was back to normal, that's when my taste went away, which I did Google it and apparently that's common. It goes away a little bit later but it was so interesting. So, I was eating last night, and I had no taste. I was really reflecting on how much of what we do is habitual because I noticed that I wanted to eat the exact same amount of food, I wanted to eat what I always eat, even though, I couldn't even taste it. I was watching myself eating, it was really mindful moment, especially, because I'm interviewing tomorrow, not in person.  

Oh, yeah. Obviously, our interviews are not in person. Dr. Anna, I don't know how you say your last name. I should figure that out for tomorrow. Dr. Anna Lembke, I think she wrote a book called Dopamine Nation about addiction. I'm really excited to talk with her about the concept of addictive behavior but I was reflecting on it while eating, and I could see, I was like, "Oh, we engage in these things that are pleasurable, even when pleasure's not there anymore." I wasn't getting any pleasure from taste, zero. But I was still getting a lot of pleasure from the event of eating the same amount. Does that make sense?  

Gin Stephens: That's so interesting. Can you smell?  

Melanie Avalon: No. 

Gin Stephens: I'll hope it comes back quickly because that's a symptom that for some people sticks around a long time and I know that would be awful. I feel so bad for anyone who that sticks around for.  

Melanie Avalon: I was googling it last night and they released a study on people who had lost their taste and smell from it. At one year, it was almost 100 people that they were following and everybody had regained it, except for I think two people. Yeah, most people had regained it sooner rather than later.  

Gin Stephens: That's good.  

Melanie Avalon: I will answer one question, not medical advice, but people have just been asking a lot of questions on my Instagram. A lot of people have asked, "Did I keep fasting during it?" I did because I wasn't feeling the need to eat any-- I wasn't feeling any different. 

Gin Stephens: I always continue to fast when I'm sick unless, I feel like I need to eat. I really, really listen to my body. But the only time I really would feel like I needed to eat when I was sick is if I was nauseous and I felt like I needed food in my stomach to combat nausea. Other than that, I just continue to fast because I feel that gives my body time to heal and repair.  

Melanie Avalon: That's what I feel like. Like I said, I definitely ate the same amount of food even though, I wasn't-- I don't know. It's been very, very interesting, the eating experience of this. Eating the same amount, not even knowing if I was that hungry for the same amount and also not tasting it, but still, I don't know. It's very interesting. I did notice that despite not having any tastes, it's like I could still sense in my body when I was getting nourished, even though, I couldn't taste anything. I thought that was really cool. So, for listeners, if you get COVID and you lose your sense of taste, it will be an interesting experiment to watch your relationship with food and yeah, that whole experience, it's been very interesting.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm glad that you're feeling better and fingers crossed that the senses return soon. 

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Friends even other bone broth that I really love always have salt added. This doesn't. Her bone broths are made from grass-fed ranch raised beef and vegetarian-fed free range chicken bones from Certified Humane USDA Organic Farms and all certified organic vegetables are used in the broth as well. There're no antibiotics, no hormones, only the good stuff. Here's the super cool thing about Beauty & the Broth. It can be a little bit of a hassle to transport bone broth. It's heavy, you have to keep it frozen, guess what? Beauty & the Broth comes in shelf stable packets with no preservatives that you keep at room temperature and they are in concentrated form. That means that you add back water to reconstitute and you can make it any strength that you like. They're single servings, so, you can take them with you on the go and even on the plane, as yes, they are three ounces and they're delicious. Oh, my goodness, friends, they will just make you light up. They're honestly one of the most amazing things I've ever tasted. So, if you've been looking to finally jump on the bone broth train, do it now and do it with Beauty & the Broth. Melissa has an amazing offer just for our listeners. You can go to thebeautyandthebroth.com or melanieavalon.com/broth and use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON to get 15% off. That's thebeautyandthebroth.com with the coupon code MELANIEAVALON for 15% off. All of the listeners who have tried it, ever since I aired my episode with Melissa have talked about how much they love it. It is so delicious. You guys will definitely love it. So, definitely check that out.  

By the way, bone broth does break your fast. So, this is something that you want to have in your eating window. In fact, it's an amazing way to open your eating window because when you're in that fasted state, when you take in bone broth as the first thing, all those rich nutrients and collagen go straight to your gut, help heal your gut, help with leaky gut, help digestive issues. And again, you can go to thebeautyandthebroth.com and use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON for 15% off. I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.  

Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?  

Gin Stephens: Yep, let's get started.  

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off, we have a question from Alexandra and the subject is: "Eating window." Alexandra says, "Hi, Gin and Melanie, for reference. I am 31 years old and 5'5". I weigh 168 pounds and would like to get down to 140 or 135 pounds. I hope this email finds you well. One of my favorite things to do is cook a delicious dinner in a fasted state while listening to your podcast. I can truly say this podcast is one of my absolute favorites. It keeps me motivated and I am fully invested in the Whole Foods guy saga." I do have an update about that, Gin. So, I'll report back.  

Gin Stephens: You have an update about it you can share today?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Should I share it now? 

Gin Stephens: Share it right now.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. He's gone. It's so sad.  

Gin Stephens: Do you know anything about it or just one day, he wasn't there anymore? 

Melanie Avalon: No. I know about it. I talked to him. He got an internship somewhere. So, he's no longer working there. So, I gave him a copy of my book as a going away present. 

Gin Stephens: Well, that's fun.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, sad face. But yes, I wish him the best wherever he is at his internship. Okay. Oh, actually, though I will say, so his internship-- I doubt he'll be listening to this. So, his internship is for engineering. We had a really nice conversation about engineering.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, is he a Georgia Tech guy?  

Melanie Avalon: No. Well, I don't know.  

Gin Stephens: Well, if he's been in Atlanta and he's an engineer, that's Georgia Tech. So, anyway, I bet he is.  

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. it's a good question. I would have asked if he was still at the store.  

Gin Stephens: Because it's the best engineering school in the United States and it's right there in Atlanta, and he's got an engineering internship.  

Melanie Avalon: He's interning at a company.  

Gin Stephens: Right. Exactly. Yeah, that's what they do.  

Melanie Avalon: I don't think he's in school right now. Regardless, I got very excited because have I expressed to you what is one of my ongoing fears/concerns if I think about it, so, I just don't think about it. 

Gin Stephens: I don't know what it is. I don't know if you've expressed it. [laughs] Tell me what it is and I'll tell you if you have. 

Melanie Avalon: I have an ongoing fear/concern if I think about it about structure support-  

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, no. You've never shared that. 

Melanie Avalon: -in buildings. If I start thinking about roofs or I'm in an apartment, and there are apartment buildings above me, it really stresses me out. So, I just don't think about it. I got so excited because I got to ask him all my questions about structural support of roofs. 

Gin Stephens: Like structure failure?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because that's what he said he wants to do and I was like, "Oh, my goodness, let me ask you questions." [giggles] Because I was like, "How did buildings not just collapse and how there've been buildings around for so long?" It just bothers me. And then I had never thought about this, Gin. Have you ever thought about that there are buildings from forever ago and they're still here? Did you know they've been checking them since they were built? That blew my mind.  

Gin Stephens: That doesn't surprise me but I know, I'll often see, we have a house here in the United States that's from 1920, and you're like, "Man, that's old." You're like, "Yeah, over there." The UK, they're laughing at us with our old 1920s buildings because our building has been here since 1407.  

Melanie Avalon: But did you ever think about-- they probably ever since 1407 had a building inspector come and check it.  

Gin Stephens: It also makes me feel everything is fixable. There's no house that's beyond repair, because the ones from 1407 are still around, and they've just been able to keep them going.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that just really blew my mind.  

Gin Stephens: I know there are buildings that are beyond repair. But my point being that, if it looks like you could probably fix it, I'm sure you can.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I walked away feeling a lot better about my fear I have. That was a tangent. In any case, back to Alexandra's question. She says, "So, my question, I have been doing IF on and off since 2019 because I was pregnant with my second baby, and then breastfeeding, I had to take a solid break. Losing my baby weight after my second baby with IF compared to losing it after my first with IF has been different. The baby weight the second time around has been harder to lose. Just for reference, I really struggle when I am pregnant and I gained a good 60 plus pounds. I'm constantly hungry, nauseous, and basically, just in survival mode." Survival mode sparked a memory for me. I'm going to circle back to that. She says, "Slowly but surely, I'm losing the weight, maybe about 0.9 pounds a week or a bit less. Not kidding, it never averages out to one pound.  

But then depending on what's going on, I will have a week when I go up a bit or I don't lose any weight. As Gin always says, tweak it till it works. I've been doing just that. Tweaking and tweaking away and I discovered that if I close my window around six or seven with a nice dinner and maybe a snack to open my window that my weight has really started to drop. But I am confused about is the amount I'm eating has really not changed. Before doing this, I would open my window with a nice homemade dinner and have some dark chocolate and crackers around 8:30 PM when I finally got my toddler in bed. But I can't figure out is why closing my window at six or seven would make such a difference in my weight loss. I'm writing to you about it because I'm upset, ha-ha as I like to have my evening snack. Perhaps, I will just need to do this as I am working to lose these last 25 or so pounds, but I was curious what your take would be on this matter. I just can't see how the time in which I eat but not the volume could make such a difference, wishing you," oh, this must have been in Christmas because she wished us an amazing Christmas season, Allie. Oh, I've been calling her Alexandra, but her name.  

Gin Stephens: Well, it's her official name.  

Melanie Avalon: She goes by Allie.  

Gin Stephens: Well, Allie, that's a great question and I'm going to 100% tell you one thing that was true for my body. The baby weight the second time around was harder to lose. I don't know why but it absolutely was. I don't know. There're so many changes that go on but when I had Cal, I still remember exactly how much I weighed. I remember being like 123 pounds when I found that I was pregnant with Cal, and then I got up to a high of 163, and then I wore my same jeans till like five months into the pregnancy, and then I just had to do that rubber band trick where you'd take a rubber band and you hook it around the button and then you go through the little loop and then put it. They probably have better tools for that now. You can actually buy them but I used the rubber band that kept my jeans go in for probably till six months in. And then I barely had to wear maternity clothes, it felt like for that one. Oh, then I was back in my jeans, I swear a week after Cal was born. That's one of those, my body bounced back, right? 

I wasn't super young. I was in my upper 20s at the time and then with Will, they're 18 months apart. It's like the minute the pregnancy test was positive, my abdomen went bloop [laughs] and I was already in maternity clothes right away. More than most of the time and I got up into the-- It was either high 180s, low 190s, like I didn't even want to tell Chad how much I weighed at that point. And then after I had Will, my body did not bounce right back. I thought my body would and it didn't. I remember sitting around 163 and I'm like, "That's where my body settled in." I was like, "Gosh, that was my high weight when I was pregnant with Cal was 163" and here I am. I'm just weighing 163 and it's normal now. It was hard. That's when I went down the diet pill rabbit hole that was right after that and long story there. But the thing is that, for whatever reason, my body really had that same exact situation as you're describing. It was harder to lose the weight after baby two.  

Now, when we're getting into your weight finally starting to drop, there are two things that could be in mind here. One, your weight was just about ready to be start to drop anyway and it was a coincidence that it happened to be when you've shifted your window. That could be it, I don't know. Also, though it might have to do just with water weights. I'm not sure if you just-- Let's say there're two scenarios. Maybe whether your weight suddenly had a sudden drop, and then it's kept going down at your same pace or has the rate of weight loss increased, that would be what I would like to know. Because if you had been losing 0.9 a week, and then you switched your window, and then it had a little whoosh, but the 0.9 a week from that whoosh has continued, then the timing probably just meant that maybe you weren't retaining as much water later on because it's been longer since you ate. That could cause your weight to be lower, if that makes sense. The amount of time since you last ate because our bodies retain water to deal with the food, and when you have more food in your system, you're retaining more water to manage it, and then the food's working its way out, you drop the water. 

If your rate of loss has actually increased and before it was 0.9 or less and now it's more, then it could just be your body was ready to do that or it could be that that really is a better window for your body for whatever the reason might be. So, keep experimenting with it and see, because theoretically you're right that if all you've done is change the time, but it's the exact same amount, and it's not like you've changed it a ton. Closing it at six or seven versus closing it at 8:30, it doesn't seem like a giant difference that it would physiologically change the workings of your body, right, Melanie? What do you think about that? 

Melanie Avalon: I have two concepts that might be going on and one speaks to what you just said. So, one, and I should have timed this question differently because I haven't posted this blog post yet, but I'm actually glad we're doing this because this is just going to force me to post it. I've been working on a blog post for months, months, I tell you about really looking at what did the study say about timing of eating and its effect on weight loss, particularly, things like late night eating and stuff like that. But the takeaway, it's such an epic blog post. So, I'm going to try to post it this week actually. I'll make the link to it regardless. So, even if it's not up when this comes out, but hopefully it will be. I'll make the link for it melanieavalon.com/eatingtiming. The takeaway from it was that, there are a lot of hormones involved in us eating, and us burning fat, and not burning fat, and there's just so many hormones. There's insulin, there's ghrelin, there's leptin, there's norepinephrine, there's cortisol, there's so many hormones, and they're all on rhythms. How we eat interacts with that and it can affect our weight.  

The problem is that, it's not black and white. People like to say, "Oh, if you eat, after a certain time, it becomes fat for everybody all the time." That's just not what I saw, especially, if you're doing things like intermittent fasting, and you're only eating in a certain window. The takeaway that I took from it is that we're all very individual and I do think some people are eating at different times for given person. So, I'm not comparing between people. I'm comparing within the same person. I think for a given person, it is very possible that if they have a window at a certain time, they might lose or gain a different amount of weight than if they have a consistent window at a different time. I don't think it's standard between people like I just said. So, I don't think you can say, if this person eats at this time and this other person eats at this time, they're going to gain or lose the same amount of weight. I think it's individual. The reason I'm saying all that is that, I actually do think that with your individual biology, it might be that eating, even though, Gin did point out that it's not that big of a difference when you're changing it. The timeline of those hormones is on a rhythm where I think it could be affected by something like this. 

Gin Stephens: Or, not. You think an hour and a half would really make that much difference?  

Melanie Avalon: I think it could. I'm not saying that it is but if it's a consistent change and if it is working ever so slightly better for your body with all those hormones, I think it could make a difference. I don't know if that's what's happening but I think it could be. If that is what's happening, I don't think it's like we'd be able to point to-- I couldn't say which hormones it is. I just think it could be a thing. Something that could also be a thing, so, that was option number one. Option number two is, she says the only thing she's changing is the timing, but the situation that she gave us, she's eating differently as well. She says that when she closes at six or seven, she maybe starts with a snack and has a nice dinner.  

Gin Stephens: I had that same thought Melanie that you're saying.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But when she closes at 8:30, she starts with a dinner and ends with a snack. So, she says what the snack is on the 8:30 but not on the six or seven. Small nuances but you actually might be eating more. 

Gin Stephens: It might be different.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's what it sounds like. So, it could be a combination of all that. It could be that you are a little bit better when you eat. By better, I mean, hormonally, for whatever reason you don't gain as much weight when the window is a little bit earlier. Then on top of that, maybe-- oh and there's something else to point out. So, it could be that hormonally when you eat earlier, your hunger driving hormone. So, it doesn't necessarily have to be the hormones that are determining if you store fat or not. It could be the hormones regulating appetite and it could be that when you eat a little bit earlier, you get fuller faster or you're not as hungry, little things can be different that are resulting in you actually eating less when you eat earlier. I do think with what is happening if it's not water weight like Gin said, which it could be that as well. But if it actually is, different weight gain or loss, then I would guess what you're eating is actually changing, even though, you think it's not the amount of food.  

Gin Stephens: I wonder if the question would be, has the rate increased week to week? If she was losing 0.3 a week and now, she's losing 0.9 a week average, then the rate of weight loss has increased. But if she had a whoosh in there at some point, but the rate has stayed the same, then actually, it hasn't made her lose weight faster if that makes sense. Because sometimes we just have a whoosh, our weight will just drop a few pounds, but overall, your rate stays the same week to week. That's a question that would be interesting to know. But really, it doesn't matter. You just keep doing what feels like it's working. Use that data to test different things and see what happens. It's a study of one. So, maybe now, try the old way that you felt like you'd liked a little bit better, see what happens. If you have a reverse whoosh but the rate stays the same, if you put on a few pounds, pop back up. But is then your rate is the same as it was the rate of loss, then that really isn't just indicating more fat loss or less fat loss. It just your weight pops up a little bit and then your rate of loss stays the same. That would indicate it's more likely water weight is what I'm saying.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's a really, really great point. I will say, when I was reading the studies for that blog post, oh, my goodness, I read so many studies, and they were so long, and it was really interesting because some of them, I mean, most of them were really in depth but there was probably one or two where the researchers were so clearly approaching the subject matter with an agenda of finding the problems with late night eating that they would point out because it would have so much data on these different hormones at different times, and they would point out things that would be in complete contradiction to other data in the study but only when it was supporting their thesis. It was very frustrating. So, I didn't mean for my blog post to get so in the weeds, but I was like, "I just have to really point out what they're doing in these studies," because this is how information I think it's-- I don't know. it gets put out there with an agenda and then people don't get the full story. So, I'll be curious to see what listeners think about it. Two other really quick things. 

The concept of harder to lose the weight the second time around with the baby weight, definitely check out my interview with Joel Greene, who wrote The Immunity Code, I think is his book and he's the one I've talked about in the show before. He's the one that talks about why it's actually harder every time you lose weight to lose weight again. His theory which he supports with scientific data is that, every time you lose and gain weight, it affects the structure of fat cells, which is called the extracellular matrix ECM. So, it's basically like wearing clothes. Oh, this is a good analogy because Gin, you're talking about your clothes, like if your fat cell has clothes and every time you gain weight, you have to make the clothes bigger, and then basically how easy it is to shrink back down that ECM versus just it's easier just to keep it filled rather than taking in your clothes. Your body would rather just keep the weight rather than go in and fix that extracellular matrix. Go in and basically alter your clothes is a very energy heavy process that the body does not really like to do. Every time it has to do it, it gets stiffer and stiffer. He calls it the stiffening of the ECM. So, it's a really cool explanation for why gaining weight and losing, and gaining weight losing gets harder and harder every time.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, my body was like, "All right, we're just going to stick around right here." [laughs]. I don't even think I really hardly even tried after Cal. My body just bounced right back but that second time, there was no bouncing. I didn't bounce all the way back down to 123. So, I did not. But I bounced back down to what was a good weight for me. I also wasn't really as much-- back in that time, I just didn't stress about it as much. I don't know. It got harder and harder over time and then that number became more and more important.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Another thing and I need to finish reading the book because I haven't. I'm so excited because I just started reading it. Oh, this book is like a cliffhanger. I'm going to interview, have you heard of Rick Johnson, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure. 

Melanie Avalon: He wrote a book called The Fat Switch. He's probably the authority on fructose, probably. He's probably done the most research on fructose. 

Gin Stephens: I might have read that a long time ago. I feel like I might have. Did that book come out in maybe 2016? Was it around then?  

Melanie Avalon: It was a while ago.  

Gin Stephens: I remember reading a book about fructose a long time ago, maybe, 2015.  

Melanie Avalon: It came out in 2013.  

Gin Stephens: That sounds right about when I might have been reading it.  

Melanie Avalon: 2012.  

Gin Stephens: They talk about animals that eat a lot of fructose?  

Melanie Avalon: Probably. I'm reading his new book. The cover of it is these two silhouettes of a woman.  

Gin Stephens: The Fat Switch, just I'm going to look it up on Amazon and then I'll know, because it will tell me because Amazon knows everything I've ever bought. But that doesn't mean I saw it on Amazon or read it on Amazon. I didn't buy the audiobook, I didn't buy the hardcover. Melanie, this is hilarious. I purchased it on April 18th, 2016. [laughs] Yeah, that is so funny. Yeah, I knew when I read it. I remember. So funny. You know what? After I had read it was, "Okay, this puts it all in perfect perspective." It was right after I had read The Obesity Code because The Obesity Code came out in March of 2016. So, I was going down that rabbit hole at that time. That was what I was learning about. So funny. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited because he's been on Peter Attia's podcast a lot and Peter literally calls him 'the number one fructose authority.' So, I'd had The Fat Switch in my lineup to read, and then his people came to me for his new book, which is called Nature Wants Us to Be Fat. It's not out yet. The subtitle is The Surprising Science Behind Why We Gain Weight and How We Can Prevent and Reverse it. I was so excited. I was like, "Oh, my goodness," because I've been dying to interview him. So, I am interviewing him in a little bit over a month, I think. According to my Kindle, I'm 21% of the way through his book, but he is making the argument thus far. I don't know how it's going to materialize for the rest of the book. But he's making the argument. He calls it the survival switch, which is I said there was a key word in that question that reminded me of something. He talks about how metabolic syndrome seems like we've switched on this survival switch, which is basically what animals do when they go into hibernation and/or migration. So, their body becomes very insulin resistant, they get abdominal obesity, they store fat, they get high triglycerides. So, yeah, he's making the case that basically it's our bodies hibernating.  

Gin Stephens: That's exactly, I remember he talked a lot about animals in that book that I read. Because remember that was what I thought I remembered something about how the animals like really, really-- when they're trying to gain the weight, they eat a lot of fruit or something. That's what I think I remember from the book. [laughs] I remember that. I had a friend that was struggling and she was eating a lot of fruit. I think that's one of the reasons I might have read it. I'm like, "You got to read this book." I remember that. I'm like, "I know you're eating a lot of fruit. Read this book." [laughs] He is not a fan.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm obsessed with it because context dependent, I mean, I eat a super high fruit diet. So, I'm really excited. I have so many questions for him.  

Gin Stephens: I have a theory that it has to do with maybe your liver health. If your liver is super unhealthy, maybe a high fructose diet might be more fat promoting than if you've got a really healthy liver.  

Melanie Avalon: I think so as well. I think the context is so important. I think fructose in the context of high fat diet is probably pretty problematic. But in the context of what I do, which is high protein, high fruit, low fat, I really want to talk to him about that. Oh, but he talked about the hummingbird. This is what I read last night and he might talk about this in the first book. Did you know that the hummingbird every day eats four times its amount of its body weight and nectar, and it gains so much fat, and it gets a fatty liver by the end of the day, and it's basically diabetic by the end of the day, and then overnight it burns it all off, and then it's back to normal?  

Gin Stephens: I do think I remember reading that the hummingbird had the highest metabolic rate, it has a really high metabolic rate.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The equivalent though, I think he said, it's blood sugar at the end of the day is the equivalent of 700 for us. Then it burns it all off because its metabolism is so fast and it wakes up lean and not diabetic, and then it gains the weight all again. Isn't that crazy? I'm really enjoying this book. So, yeah. I'm really curious to see what he says about humans being in this survival state, this hibernation mode. I want to ask him though if hibernating animals have high blood pressure, because that's one of the other things about metabolic syndrome. So, that was a tangent. 

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to the next question?  

Gin Stephens: We have a question from Tyler and the subject is: "Fasting headaches." Tyler says, "Hello, Melanie and Gin, I have been intermittent fasting for about eight months now using the 16:8 method. I have lost roughly 25 pounds thanks to intermittent fasting. I have an issue though but I don't know if it has to do with fasting or not. I have tension headaches almost every single day. They started sometime around when I started fasting. They do not go away when I break my fast. Could this possibly have anything to do with fasting? I have been to plenty of doctor appointments with no results and figuring it out. Thank you."  

Melanie Avalon: All right, Tyler, thank you so much for your question. So, headaches. Yeah, it was so interesting because like I mentioned, I was getting a headache with COVID and I used to get headaches growing up, it was just normal to get headaches. Now, I never get headaches unless something's up, like my current situation.  

Gin Stephens: Same thing. I never do unless it's something. 

Melanie Avalon: Did you used to get them?  

Gin Stephens: I used to get more hormonally-- I would get monthly headaches at some point. I don't know. I would get them every now and then. I remember more in my late teens, very early 20s than later. 

Melanie Avalon: It's just so interesting because I'm sure we're growing up, it's like, "Oh, if you get a headache, take an Advil." I never really thought about it. It just was a thing. I didn't question like, "Why am I getting a headache?" So, it just seemed like a thing that happens.  

Gin Stephens: I did notice even at my late teens that it was awful and hormonal for me. I made that connection. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, interesting. Okay, yeah. So, headaches. There are a lot of potential causes for headaches, and especially if you've been getting them Tyler, you've probably been going down the rabbit hole of trying to figure out all the causes. If it is related to fasting, the thing I think that it could be for anybody in general would possibly be electrolytes. So, I never experienced issues with headaches, and electrolytes, and fasting. But especially since we've been partnering with LMNT, they make electrolyte supplements that are completely free of problematic additives, they're developed in part by Robb Wolf, they have an unflavored one that is fasting friendly, you could take it during your fast. I have seen so many people say that their headaches were gone when they started using electrolytes. So, there could be other things related to fasting that could cause that, but I think if it was something related to the fasting that it might be that. So, that might be something to try.  

You can get a free sampler pack at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast if you want to try that out. If it's not that, I'm sorry, I don't know what it is, but there are a lot of things you could definitely look at. It could be related to what you're eating, it could be food sensitivities, I doubt it. But that could be a way that'd be related to fasting and that maybe if it was something that you're eating, that's a problem. Maybe having more of it in a concentrated form in a shorter eating window could be causing an issue. Whereas before, you didn't really notice because it was spread out. I don't think that's what's going on but that could be. Other things that you could look at just in general, blue light exposure. So, a lot of people find that using blue light blocking glasses, especially, if they're staring at computer screens all day can really help with their headaches. Trying to think what else. Do you have suggestions, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: I have two ideas here. I would experiment to see with your fasting. I might would take-- if you feel it's related to fasting, I might would say, "You know what? I'm going to not fast for this week and I want to see if my headaches go away." If the headaches go away, then you can say, "All right, it is definitely something to do with the fasting." Because there are some things that can cause headaches that are related to fasting. One would be something about your blood sugar response. There are certain people who get headaches after opening their eating window, you can find articles about that, eating-related headaches. That's the thing that I've seen. I wouldn't know this if I hadn't been in those communities for so long where people have all the problems and we talk about them. But here is a thing that does happen and the fact that Tyler's had tension headaches, it made me go ding, ding, ding. If you feel they're tension headaches, you can actually get tension headaches if you're doing any kind of jaw clenching.  

I have heard through the community, this is not something that you hear all the time, but sometimes, ketosis can make people clench their jaw. If you Google it, you can find that something they talk about in the keto community, jaw clenching and being in ketosis. So, that is something that could be happening. If you feel you're clenching your jaw when you're in ketosis, then perhaps that's causing your headaches. But again, I would experiment to see if it had to do with fasting by taking a few days off to a week and see if your headaches go away. Again, that could still be, it might be ketosis, it might be what you're eating, experiment with what you're eating if you have your blood sugar doing some wacky things, that could be related to the headaches. But you're just going to have to experiment and see. Have you ever heard that before about clenching your jaw with ketosis?  

Melanie Avalon: I haven't but I was thinking about it and that completely makes sense. Because we know that with fasting or keto that it can upregulate stress hormones in general. So, I can see how it would have that effect. I actually do that.  

Gin Stephens: 16:8 is a pretty gentle fasting approach. So, I only mentioned that just because it's a possibility. If I were doing 16:8, I would not be getting deep enough into ketosis to have any jaw clenching. But it's something to keep in mind because it could definitely happen in an eight-hour window if you eat lightly and have a lot of activity.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I wonder how much it has to be ketosis or just the stress hormone upregulation potential from fasting.  

Gin Stephens: Well, it's something you hear in the keto community more so than the fasting community, which is why I believe it's linked to ketosis. Because not everyone in the keto community is of course fasting.  

Melanie Avalon: True. That's been a lifelong-- not lifelong, it's been since 2012, long struggle for me, like TMJ and jaw clenching and-- 

Gin Stephens: Oh, really?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Ever since I had my wisdom teeth out. 

Gin Stephens: When did you start fasting?  

Melanie Avalon: 2010.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I wonder if there's a connection with ketosis and jaw clenching.  

Melanie Avalon: I don't think so, because it started from when I had my wisdom teeth out. I'd been fasting for two years already and didn't have any issues, and then I had my wisdom teeth out, and then it just-- 

Gin Stephens: Not everybody who clenches their jaw has this problem. My grandmother had a real problem with clenching her teeth and grinding her teeth, and she didn't fast. So, TMJ definitely could be unrelated to fasting. That's why I recommended that Tyler experiment with taking a week off of fasting and seeing that would really make it clear. If the headaches completely go away, then okay, there's something going on related to the fasting. 

Melanie Avalon: And also, try the electrolytes as well because I've just seen that helps so many people. So, anything else?  

Gin Stephens: I think that's it.  

Melanie Avalon: Okie-dokie.  

Gin Stephens: I think we have time to answer one more question.  

Melanie Avalon: I think so. So, quick question from Jane. The subject is: "Need food with meds" and Jane says, "Hi, ladies, my sisters and I are interested in an IF challenge, but I take meds first thing in the morning with a banana in order to not get nauseous. There is no way I can't do that. How much will that screw me up if I'm going to attempt the 16:8, which is 8 PM to noon fast, noon to eight eat? Is there something better than a banana I could eat?" 

Gin Stephens:  Well, thank you, Jane, and the answer is 100% yes. I would not choose a banana. But let me tell you this. [laughs] I want you to first explore the idea of having to take your meds first thing in the morning. I am not a doctor or a pharmacist, but I recommend probably the pharmacist is who I would talk to about this, because they're the ones who are trained even more so than possibly your doctor, probably more so than your doctor. They're the ones trained in what meds need to be taken when. So, just because you've been told to take it first thing in the morning that doesn't mean that you absolutely have to take it first thing in the morning. So, that's why, I wouldn't change it up yourself without talking to your pharmacist. But I 100% for every person that's taking medicine would recommend that you talk to your pharmacist about timing it because of your fasting.  

In this day and age with how many people are doing intermittent fasting and what we know about the benefits, I would think that every pharmacist would be able to tell you, how best to take your medicine structured around your fast. Because there are some medications that you 100% don't want to take and then fast for a while, because it could have negative effects on your blood sugar, for example. So, you really want to say, "Okay, I'm doing intermittent fasting or I'm about to start intermittent fasting, I would prefer to not have to eat with this medicine, because obviously eating breaks the fast. So, can you help me tie my medication to go with the fasting approach I'd like to?" You might be surprised that might say, "Oh, yeah, there's no reason you can't just take your medicine with your first meal at noon." That might be absolutely fine. So, just because it's always been first thing in the morning, it doesn't mean it has to be first thing in the morning. So, have that conversation.  

Now if you do have to eat, yes, it does break a fast. But I would choose something that's going to have a smaller insulin response, something like higher fat. You definitely don't want to have something high carb. But something that's going to be more of a blip to go along with it. But personally, I would not do well having to have a little bit of anything. Because once I have something to eat even if it's high fat, even if it's just a little bit, then I would be struggling. It would be harder for me to fast. But people do maybe a tablespoon full of heavy cream or something. It helps the medicine not affect your stomach in a negative way. Or, Jason Fung suggested in his book, like a small amount of leafy greens. They're going to have less of an effect. But you really might not need to take it at that time, even though, you've always taken it at that time.  

Melanie Avalon: I thought that was great. It reminded me of, I was just listening to David Sinclair on Huberman.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, my God, that's so funny. Because yesterday while I was at brunch, when I was with my sister right in the car, we went and met a bunch of relatives in Clemson, South Carolina, and the waiter was, I don't know how he got on the subject of intermittent fasting but he just said he had listened to Sinclair on the Huberman Podcast.  

Melanie Avalon: I swear everybody has listened to that episode.  

Gin Stephens: The waiter had listened to it. So, I pointed him to your Biohacking Podcast. I thought he would like yours a lot. He was interested in some of the same kind of things that you're interested in. He's young, a young waiter guy, and I was like, "You got to find Melanie." But he's interested in fasting. So, I said, "First go to Intermittent Fasting Podcast." Because I was like, "You should listen to David Sinclair from Melanie's podcast, too." Because he was asking me about that, what's that NAD thing?  

Melanie Avalon: NAD? 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, whatever. I don't know much about it. But he was asking me about that. I'm like, "All right, you got to go somewhere else to hear that information." But I said, "Look for Intermittent Fasting Podcast, find Melanie," because it's really easy to remember Intermittent Fasting Podcast, but harder to remember The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. He can find you from finding us. So, anyway, so funny.  

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. Really quick story about that. Well, I'm friends with David Sinclair's agent, who is also Andrew Huberman's agent and Andy Huberman, his podcast is one of the top podcasts on podcasts. He was on Rogan and all this stuff. Before any of that, I remember his agent was like, "You got to have on this guy, he's going to be huge," and it was him. We never locked it down and I forgot about it because he didn't have a book. So, he wasn't on my radar. Now, I'm like, "Oh, I really should have locked that down," because now, I reached out recently to his agent and I was like, "Can you please come on?" He's like-- Oh, and now he's completely booked up because he has his show, missed out on that one. Oh, so David Sinclair went on his show and talked about how he takes his NMN, and maybe some other things that he has to take with a fat. So, he does daily intermittent fasting but he does take some supplements.  

He used to take it with a little bit of yogurt every morning. That's what I think he said when I interviewed him. But now, apparently, he does it with olive oil. So, he talks about it in that episode. He said he does like a little bit of olive oil with-- He says, it tastes like an Italian salad dressing. That's what he does because the supplements that he takes actually requires fat with them and he said, he doesn't-- this would not be in line with what we talk about with a clean fast, but he said he doesn't really consider it breaking his fast, being just pure fat and not changing any of the signaling there. So, I'm not saying that you can have fat and that doesn't break your fast. But I'm saying if you do have to take a little bit of medication with something, maybe something then to try would be-- if you are able to take it with just a little bit of olive oil or something like that.  

Gin Stephens: And also, be aware that if you take oil on an empty stomach, it can have a laxative effect. Especially, MCT oil. [laughs] Ask me how I know. Anyway, yes, good times.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode249. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast, Gin is @ginstephens, I am @melanieavalon. We'll put links in the show notes to Clean(ish). Again. Congratulations, Gin.  

Gin Stephens: Thank you.  

Melanie Avalon: And yeah, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?  

Gin Stephens: Nope, I don't think so.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.  

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice. We're not doctors. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, theme music by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 248 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get free electrolyte supplements, some of which are clean, fast approved, all developed by none other than Robb Wolf. Have you been struggling to feel good with low carb, paleo, keto, or fasting? Have you heard of something called the keto flu? Here's the thing. The keto flu is not actually a condition. Nope. Keto flu just refers to a bundle of symptoms. Headaches, fatigue, muscle cramps, and insomnia that people experience in the early stages of keto dieting. Here's what's going on.  

When you eat a low-carb diet, your insulin levels drop. Low insulin in turn lowers the production of the hormone aldosterone. Now aldosterone is made in the kidneys and it helps you retain sodium. So, low aldosterone on a keto diet makes you lose sodium at a rapid rate. Even if you are consciously consuming electrolytes, you might not be getting enough. In particular, you need electrolytes, especially, sodium and potassium, in order for nerve impulses to properly fire. Robb Wolf, who as you guys know is my hero in the holistic health world worked with the guys at Ketogains to get the exact formulation for electrolyte supplements to formulate LMNT Recharge, so you can maintain ketosis and feel your best. LMNT Recharge has no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no junk. They're used by three Navy SEALs teams. They are the official hydration partner to Team USA weightlifting, they're used by multiple NFL teams, and so much more. 

Guess what? We worked out an exclusive deal for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast listeners only. Guys, this is huge. They weren't going to do a deal, I begged them, here we are. You can get a free LMNT sampler pack. We're not talking a discount, we're talking free. Completely free. You only pay $5 for shipping. If you don't love it, they will even refund you the $5 for shipping. I'm not kidding. The sample pack includes eight packets of LMNT, two Citrus, two Raspberry, two Orange, and two Raw Unflavored. The Raw Unflavored ones are the ones that are safe for your clean fast and the other ones you can have in your eating window. Word on the street is the citrus flavor makes an amazing margarita, by the way.  

I am loving LMNT and I think you guys will, too. Again, this is completely free. You have nothing to lose. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IF Podcast. And I'll put all this information in the show notes.  

One more thing before you jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often test high for lead and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on and on top of that, their products actually work that's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels, and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.  

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now, enjoy the show. 

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 248 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens.  

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I am fabulous. It is January 2nd and I was late putting up my Christmas decorations this year. So, I took them down earlier than usual. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I was going to ask you. I've been stressing about the proper time to take them down. I was going to take them down today.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I follow the, like, take them down to the 12 days of Christmas kind of a thing. So, therefore, January 5th would be the official or 6th depending on what you count as day one, I don't know. But right around January 5th or 6th.  

Melanie Avalon: Wait, I thought the 12 days of Christmas ended on Christmas.  

Gin Stephens: No, that's when it begins.  

Melanie Avalon: What? Are you sure?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. There's the season in the Christian faith called epiphany. That's the name of the season. If you look up epiphany. 

Melanie Avalon: I will say, listeners, I feel good. I typed in when are the-- It is the 4th search. People are wondering.  

Gin Stephens: [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Do you want to know what the first three are?  

Gin Stephens: What do you mean? The first three what?  

Melanie Avalon: What people are searching for when they search for? When are the- 

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: -college football playoffs, Winter Olympics, Grammys, 12 Days of Christmas.  

Gin Stephens: Love it. 

Melanie Avalon: Then, Oscars. Whoa.  

Gin Stephens: What? 

Melanie Avalon: Mind blown. I always thought the 12 days of Christmas ended on Christmas.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. See, Gin knows her stuff about stuff. [laughs] So, officially, I always keep it up till later. But I've got so much going on this week. Yesterday, I was like, I'll just take down a few things and leave up the trees. And then, I was in such a roll and I was already all dirty from taking dusty stuff and whatever, and then, I'm like, "I'm just doing it." So, I did it. So, my house is un-Christmased, whatever. un-Christmased. That is a hard word to say. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I feel so much better now. I was stressing about-- Because this is my first time having my own tree, and I was like, "When do I take it down?" Okay, I thought I was late.  

Gin Stephens: No. I was just early and was a little sad. But like I said, I was on a roll, so, I did it, and here we are 2022. Officially, our first time talking in the New Year.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. A question for you. I asked you this before, but you sent me a Christmas tree that is in a pot. What do you think will happen if I keep it in the pot? Will it overtake the container? What I was asking you before is, they say that goldfish, and I don't know if this is true, because I just briefly googled it, and I think it might not be true. But I'd always heard that goldfish grow to the size of their container. So, that's why like when you have a goldfish at home, it's small, but if the goldfish in ponds are big.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't know the answer to either of those questions because I am the last person to ask about how to keep a plant alive. So, Chad does all keeping plants alive and I keep other things alive, like, children and cats. [laughs] He keeps plants alive. Here's what I always do. I keep it in the pot until it dies, and then I throw it away. Now, when I was a teacher, one year Chad gave me this beautiful orchid on the first day of school, and I kept it in my classroom, and it was beautiful, and then it died. There was another teacher at my school who saves things. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, you know about orchids?  

Gin Stephens: I don't know anything about orchids, but I know that my friend, who was like, "I can save that." So, I gave it to her instead of throwing it away.  

Melanie Avalon: Fun fact because Gin and I have the same agent. All the people that I worked with there, so, the main agent and then two assistants, they're actually agents now, I sent them an orchid plant, three of them. It was so perfect. They came in three different colors. So, I was like, they can pick whatever color they want. Are you ready? So, the orchid blooms once a year. It "dies," but it comes back. So, it might not have been dead.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I gave it to her. Normally, I just would throw them away, and then I felt bad. Here's my whole rationalizing this. I felt bad. I'm like, "This plant died and then then I had to throw it away, and that's like a waste of a good plant." Then I'm like, "Wait a minute. Anytime we cut flowers, since you cut flowers, they die and you throw them away."  

Melanie Avalon: And it probably wasn't even dead.  

Gin Stephens: I don't know. Hopefully, she revived it.  

Melanie Avalon: The thing is, I had never realized this. So, I put everywhere in the note. I explain this because I didn't want them to think it died, because they were dyed. 

Gin Stephens: Brittle looking?  

Melanie Avalon: Well, the flowers were dyed. D-Y. Dyed colors. It said that it would die and then it would come back, but it would be its normal orchid color. So, then, I sent them a follow up email and I was like, "Maybe this is common knowledge. But just FYI about those orchids."  

Gin Stephens: No, no, when I think an orchid is dead, it's not that the flower falls off. It's that the entire stem is now brown and twiggy looking. That's what I call it, it's dead now. Not just because the flowers fell off. I mean, I do know if it's still green just because the flower fell off, that doesn't mean it's dead. But once the stem would get twiggy, actually, I do know my friend did save it. When I said, I hope she saved it, she did. She told me she did.  

Melanie Avalon: Speaking of plants, this is actually so perfect, unplanned. I interviewed Farmer Lee Jones last week.  

Gin Stephens: His book is beautiful.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, Gin. So, up until this point, so, I've had over a hundred something guests on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Up until this point, everybody's been really incredible, really amazing, a lot of people are really passionate, but when I'd interviewed Wim Hof, he was just like another level of passion. Everybody was like at this kind of hit this glass ceiling of passion, and then he was just lightyears ahead. Farmer Lee Jones is on the Wim Hof spectrum of passion. He was yelling at the microphone. I was like, "Oh, my goodness." He was incredible. I have never felt so inspired to support regenerative agriculture, and bring back nutrient density, and revive our soil, and take charge of our health through growing better food. This man is incredible. He's so amazing. So, for listeners when that episode comes out, definitely check it out. The entire time I was just smiling. I was watching myself having the interview and I was just smiling. Can you imagine if everybody had that type of energy, what type of world we would live in?  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I know.  

Melanie Avalon: So, it was amazing.  

Gin Stephens: That's great. Oh, I'm actually, finally listening to Why We Get Sick.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, Dr. Gregor.  

Gin Stephens: No, no. Benjamin Bikman.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's how not to die.  

Gin Stephens: You had Benjamin Bikman on your podcast, right?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Oh, I loved that. Oh, he's amazing.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Spoiler alert, insulin. [laughs] But it is everything I already thought and he's saying it, I mean I haven't gotten all the way in but so far, the beginning talking about hyperinsulinemia. 

Melanie Avalon: [sighs] I remember when I was doing all that and I was like, "Gin, read this book." It's basically like the insulin manifesto.  

Gin Stephens: It really, really is. What inspired me to go ahead and get it as someone in my community said that it was available included through Audible Plus, with their new Audible Plus Catalog where you don't have to use a credit for it. You just can listen. 

Melanie Avalon: I haven't used that yet.  

Gin Stephens: What Audible Plus?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-mm. 

Gin Stephens: I've always just had Audible and didn't ever join it. I just had it as my audiobook library and I would just buy a book. I didn't buy very many. But now, I'm driving to the beach and back-- 

Melanie Avalon: Sorry to interrupt. So, this is different then, because I have a membership with credits.  

Gin Stephens: This is the Plus membership. They have a new membership level, the Audible Plus. 

Melanie Avalon: And this book is on it?  

Gin Stephens: And you still get a credit, but you also have more things that you can listen to that are included that don't take credits and this is one of them. It's got good stuff in there. It's not just like, stuff you don't want to listen to that you can listen to for free. No, it's stuff you do want to listen to and it's included and you don't have to use a credit. So, that finally got me to pull the trigger on getting Audible as a membership, especially, now that I'm driving to the beach so much and in the sauna I can listen. So, I'm finally listening to something. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm obsessed with Audible. Actually, for listeners, because right now, as of the time of recording I'm not sure if they're still sponsoring the show. We were actually booked on inventory but I'm so passionate about them that might see if I can keep them in. So, if we do have a code for them right now, because this airs in January. I'll put in the show notes. We probably do.  

Gin Stephens: They do sponsor IF Stories. I just read an ad for them today, but yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: There probably is still an offer at the link, listeners, if you go to audible.com/ifpodcast or text IF PODCAST to 500-500. Well, I'm glad, Gin that you are on the Audible train with me now. Audible is like my life.  

Gin Stephens: It's funny as an author of course. As soon as our books come out, you find like a typo, right? You're like, "Oh, they're--" I was just looking through Clean(ish) and they've already been printed, and of course, by this time, they come out, everybody will have them already, because we're past the date that will be released when this podcast releases. But as soon as I got my copy of the final version, I look, there's some kind of weird typo in one of the reflect and take action sections, and it's clearly just an extra character got inserted, because it's not a letter of the alphabet in the middle of a word, like an and or something. I don’t know.  

In the middle of the word, someone just leaned on their typewriter, I don't know, or their keyboard. I'm like, "Well, there's one right there." But that was not in the original document. But typos get in there all throughout the way. But I was listening to Why We Get Sick today, and an entire paragraph was repeated. I swear, I just heard that exact-- 

Melanie Avalon: In the audiobook.  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: That's funny.  

Gin Stephens: It exactly is in there twice. So, I'm like, I don't care how many people are part of the process, things happen. It makes you feel better when you see in other places, because you want your work to be perfect, but perfection is an illusion.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I told you this before on the show, but when my narrator recorded my audiobook, she did find an error in mine, but she said every single book she's ever recorded has always had an error.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Also, one of the websites that I mentioned as a resource no longer exists and I hate that. Because it existed all the way through, and even when we checked it, and all the way through all the final, and then, all of a sudden, it's not there anymore. I'm like, "Great." [laughs] So, people would be like, "I can't find that website." I'm just waiting for the emails to start. Yes, it doesn't exist anymore. Sorry. The internet is elite living thing and it changes.  

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?  

Gin Stephens: Yep, let's get started.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off, we have a very long question. It's from Carrie. Carrie, I cut down your question a lot. But it has a lot of good stuff in it, and a lot of good questions, and a lot of stuff to discuss. So, I thought we could just tackle it. This question comes from Carrie. The subject is: "Seeking patient answers, my saga and road to IF." Carrie says, "Hey, Melanie and Gin, I'm 46 and I started IF-ing two and a half months ago to lose weight. I haven't lost a pound yet nor an inch. Clothes still fit the same too. But I do love the convenience of it and the way I feel while I am fasting, energy, clarity, productivity. I clean fast. I was pretty sure drinking black coffee and giving up my Coffee-mate would cause certain death and it still hasn't. I haven't read any of your books but I did just start What When Wine this week. I chose that one because my story is very similar to Melanie's. So, I went with that one first in hopes of finding help.  

In May 2013, I had my appendix out. A couple of weeks later I got a sinus infection and they put me on, I'm thinking it's an antibiotic, which wrecked my gut bad. I was also nursing our third kid. The doctor said, I should do the BRAT diet which is Bananas, Rice, Applesauce and Toast. A week or two later, I got a positive C. diff test, more antibiotics, it worked. The C. diff was gone and eventually, I felt like myself again. Over a year later, I was training for another half marathon and doing daily HIIT for training. I was tracking calories and MyFitnessPal, and I never want to do that again. I lost 15 pounds which was the rest of my baby weight and I was very happy. But while the weight was coming off other things were starting. Anxiety, panic attacks, brain fog and hives. If I bumped my arm or leg on an edge or the counter or something that scratched it, I would end up with hives. In hindsight I think all the training and running exacerbated gut problems from all the antibiotics, but I have no proof.  

By the end of the summer, I gained 40 pounds. In spring, 2016, a chiropractor who does kinesiology put me on herbs for a liver parasite and liver virus. I added essential oils and that helped not needing Zyrtec. In 2017, she said she started a, it is a name brand 'Weight Loss Drink' thing. She says, eventually, the brain fog and anxiety cleared and I lost 15 pounds, but I plateaued and quit those. In 2019, I gained the 15 pounds back even though I ate very healthy 80% to 90% of the time. June 2020, a naturopathic practitioner put me on some remedies from Europe to support my organs. My once very poor digestion has improved, but it still has its poor movements. I did a parasite detox remedy and a heavy metal detox. I had my fillings replaced. Believe it or not, I had tiny pieces of metal coming out of my skin. I would be skeptical if I hadn't lived it. All of my traditional blood tests are always normal. A few elimination diets, food tests, which change every time, my thyroid appears fine. Now, I'm contemplating a SIBO test. It's like throwing noodles against the wall and waiting for something to stick. There's a reason I'm going through this, I just haven't discovered it yet.  

I did start that 'Weight Loss Drink' company thing again a couple of months ago because it worked the first time until it didn't. Now, it's almost 2022 and I still have 40 pounds. If not for your podcast, I'm sure, I'd have jumped ship by now. But you two keep me afloat in this sea of confusion. I fast a minimum of 16 hours, sometimes, up to 20 to 21. Eat later in the day, so I can eat with the family at night. IF worked for me in all the ways, except the one that outward shows every day and my clothes size, clothes comfort, self-esteem etc. I have three active kids and I cannot keep up with them at this size. I'm 5'4" and I currently weigh 175 pounds on a small frame. I spent so much time researching and going down rabbit holes. For exercise, I love walking and yoga. I don't do it regularly because it's not helping. I used to focus on 10,000 steps a day, but I've lost my motivation and discipline. One of the reasons I can't lose weight is also probably because I'm stressed.  

I also love wine and beer. Beer for socializing and I'm very good at it. I do try to get organic wines, I'm anxious to get to that part of the book that discusses it. I admittedly drink too much alcohol. It's how I deal with stress. I drink nearly a gallon of water daily. A couple of random things to share, I started serrapeptase a while back not for anything specific, but to see if something happened, I wouldn't have thought of. The verdict is still out on that. I did the ZOE program. While interesting, the foods still require tracking and I really don't want to track anything, and maybe, I misunderstood the program, but healthy foods were what was encouraged and less healthy were not. They seemed geared towards plant based and I'm not plant based. I was born to eat meat as well." 

Gin Stephens: That actually is the point of ZOE is teaching you what is healthy for your body so they're going to give those higher scores. That's the point. They are encouraging you to eat what will help your microbiome be healthy. They don't want you to eliminate plants, though. They're not like, "No, don't eat any meat." We're also not trying to get a score of a one hundred. So, I think that's where a lot of people get confused when they do ZOE, because they're not trying to teach you, only eat these foods that give your body a hundred, a score of hundred and don't eat anything else. It's wanting you to live in the real world by encouraging you to emphasize certain foods and de-emphasize other ones, if that makes sense.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm very, very impressed with their-- 

Gin Stephens: Support.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. You're connected with somebody who can answer your questions, and I've been drilling them on some of the questions I have about some of the foods in the app, and they've been very good at getting me really detailed answers. I do agree that I think it is very plant based. Some of it, I think is a little bit off with the meat and the seafood just as far as some of the things that it recommends. But in general, the concept that it's addressing is processing fats versus glucose like carbs and that effect. Then, the foods have to do with effects they've seen in the gut microbiome. I think it's a really helpful app and it's really interesting seeing feedback, especially, my Facebook group. Some people are like, "This is a game changer, this completely helped me break through a plateau, I feel better." For some people, it tells them what they feel like they already knew, and then, some people, especially people I think who are more low carb parts of it don't quite resonate. But either way, regardless the information that you get with the CGM and the gut microbiome test, there's a lot to learn there. So, it's really cool. I'll put a link in the show notes. I interviewed Tim Spector, the founder. So, that was a really, really cool conversation.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, and I'm talking to him. When this comes out, what, is this comes out on the 17th? I'm talking to him on the 19th. We're doing a webinar in my community. We've never actually talked, even though, he wrote the foreword to Clean(ish), we've never actually talked. So, we're going to do a webinar only available for members of the Delay, Don't Deny Community. Go to ginstephens.com/community. You still have time to get there. But the replay will be there in the community as well. That's the only place it will be available. But they're very gut focused. So, that is why they're encouraging the foods that will feed your gut really, really well.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Just we're talking about little pieces as we go. I want to say briefly about the serrapeptase. So that's the supplement that we've been talking about for a while on this show and I finally developed my own, which is very exciting, and it's a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm, and when you take it in fasted state, it actually goes into your bloodstream and it breaks down potentially problematic proteins. So, things that your body might be reacting to, it can help address. So, inflammation, allergies, it can clear your sinuses. Things on the backburner that you might not quite notice but you need to be on it long-term to possibly see difference in your bloodwork would be things like it can break down fatty deposits, and it may reduce cholesterol, it just has a myriad of potential benefits, wound healing.  

It's really interesting to see because so many people in my audience have been getting it, and some people go to it with a very specific goal like, "I want to clear my sinuses," and people have really been seeing that. Some people are more like Carrie, where they're not quite sure what they're taking it for. But I just know for me personally, I think it has a very just general synergistic helpful effect on the body like fasting does in a way. So, if you'd like to get your own, it's at avalonx.us. 

Gin Stephens: All right, well, if we're going back, I have one more thing that I highlighted that was farther back. The part about alcohol and she said, "I admittedly drink too much alcohol." and it's how she deals with stress. I'm going to just come right out and say, Melanie and I have a different recommendation when it comes to how much alcohol might support weight loss are affect it negatively, and I think a lot of it is your own bio individuality. But for me, alcohol, when I was trying to lose weight absolutely stalled my weight loss. Like the period of time when I was trying to get to my goal weight, I didn't have alcohol for about 10 weeks at all, and I really focused on eating real foods. I didn't count fat grams, I didn't count carbs, I didn't count calories. I just didn't eat ultra-processed foods. I didn't drink alcohol. I lost two pounds a week. My body did so much better. Over the holidays, yes, I'm still drinking Dry Farm Wines. Yes, I love it. But my body doesn't feel it's best, even if I drink too much Dry Farm Wine. So, to feel my best, I'm better with zero alcohol, am I going to be alcohol free for the rest of my life? No. But if I wanted to lose weight and I knew I was-- If I actually said the sentence, "I admittedly drink too much alcohol." I would really start there.  

If you're worried like, "Oh, my gosh, I can't stop drinking alcohol, I just can't. How am I going to have fun?" Well, that's really when you need to start looking at how much you're drinking. And that's where I would recommend the book This Naked Mind. Annie Grace is the author, and I read it, and I was like, "Wow." Because I always have this, like you said, beers for socializing. I almost like that, too. I was like, "If I get together with my college friends, we're going to be drinking. That's what we do. We always have." So, the first time we got together, I was having a month where I wasn't drinking at all, and I was like, "Okay, I'm not going to tell them till we get there." It sounds like, they're going to be like, I'm not even coming or whatever and then when I got there and I'm like, "I'm not drinking, surprise." They're like, "Oh, okay, that's weird but that's fine." So, I was the designated driver, I had just as much fun, I socialized great, and I felt great the next day. So, I just really want you to-- Like I said, This Naked Mind, consider that book. It really will make you think about your alcohol consumption even if you like me decide you're not going to be alcohol free. But if you feel like you're drinking too much, I would not hesitate to read this immediately. Sorry, I had to pop that in there.  

Melanie Avalon: No, no, no. I'm really excited for her to get to my section on the book on alcohol and I agree. I think it's super context dependent on two things. Before that, I think there is something different between having what a person would consider minimal or moderate alcohol and trying to lose weight by adjusting it compared to knowing that you're probably overdrinking and wanting to lose weight. Like that's two different situations in my head. As far as the context, I think, people can be very different in how they metabolize alcohol. And then, also, I think the context of the diet that you're having it with is huge. So, for example, like for Gin, it sounds like for you, you would rather cut out the alcohol, that's an extreme approach to the alcohol compared to a more extreme approach to the food. 

Gin Stephens: Well, for me, I learned through the DNA testing that my body metabolizes alcohol slowly. Some people metabolize caffeine slowly, I don't. But my body does metabolize alcohol slowly. So, my liver has to work on the alcohol like, we had that breathalyzer that would test your ketones, I actually was using that for a long time, I don't know about a year ago or a little before a year ago. When I would drink, it would vastly affect the amount of ketones I would produce the next day. To the point like, it would take me a while to get it. My liver was busy processing alcohol for a long time is what I'm saying. So, it really affected my body. If I want to lose fat, my liver needs to not be busy processing alcohol.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I guess, what I meant about the food context is, so, I don't want to use Carrie as an example because she's admitted that she does think she overdrinks. But for another person who is moderately drinking and not losing weight, so, one option might be cutting out the alcohol completely and seeing what happens, or another option might be keeping in the alcohol and adjusting the food more, and either of those situations could potentially lead to progress.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, absolutely. But putting them together, one, two, I think would also very likely supercharge it for almost anybody. I just really feel that way. 

Melanie Avalon: That's the thing I actually don't know.  

Gin Stephens: I know. But I do want people to try it, just to see if they think. I don't know. Go ahead.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm just going to say, I'm not actually-- and I talk about this a lot in What When Wine. So, people can check that out if they'd like to learn more. But I think some people might lose more if they're really intense on the food but still having alcohol, just because of some of the ways that alcohol does affect metabolism, and its thermogenic effect, and its effect on insulin, and especially like wine, potentially its effect on insulin, its effect on like a few different things. I think some people, let's say that the diet is controlled and it's a certain type of controlled diet, be it macros, Whole Foods, whatever it is, some people might lose more actually having wine with it, and I'm saying wine, but some people might not.  

Gin Stephens: I think probably a lot of it has to do with whether you're a good alcohol metabolizer or not. I've just seen my effects over time knowing how I feel. Also, having that feedback from the breathalyzer showing how it really affected how long it took me to get into ketosis versus when I didn't have it. I mean, that's huge for me. So, it would just be something I would always recommend as a tool in the toolbox for somebody.  

Melanie Avalon: I will say, if you are drinking wine, specifically drink Dry Farm Wines. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, 100%.  

Melanie Avalon: So, I went out on New Year's and we went to two different places, and the first place I went, I was able to get a wine that I had looked up the winery, like I'm pretty sure it probably wasn't as low alcohol as Dry Farm Wines or as low sugar, but I can tell now when I drink a wine at a restaurant that's not from Dry Farm Wines. I can pretty much tell if it's approaching the Dry Farm Wines spectrum. So, that one was and I was like, "Okay, I'm good." But then we went to another bar, and I got the only organic one I could find. But now, I can just so tell how high in alcohol and sugar, a lot of wines are. I wasn't hung over or anything but I had a tiny, tiny little headache and I was like, "Oh, my goodness. I got to stay with my Dry Farm Wines." So, if listeners would like to get Dry Farm Wines, they can go to dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and they can get a bottle for a penny there.  

I do have a question for listeners. I was brainstorming actually on New Year's Eve with one of my friends. Let me know, would you be interested and I'm contemplating developing an app that would, I know there's so many wines in the world, but you would look up wines and it would tell you if they're organic, or sustainable, or biodynamic, like that would just be so helpful for me personally, when I'm out at restaurants. Let me know if that would be something of interest for people. 

Gin Stephens: I think it would be of interest, but there really are so many different- 

Melanie Avalon: Wines. 

Gin Stephens: -wines that I don't know how you would compile that. Because some are produced in small amounts and here's what I do. I always stick to, if I'm out, I try to get something from France. [laughs] That's my metric. You know, France. If it's made in France, it's smaller kind of a thing. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, actually, so, my people, if they want to know my protocol, I look at the wine list. I don't even look at US. I don't. 

Gin Stephens: No. Not at a restaurant.  

Melanie Avalon: I look at the European ones, and then, I google the winery, and this is why I want to make this app. I google the winery and you'd be really surprised how many of them actually are implementing organic practices. The thing that Dry Farm Wines goes one step beyond is, they test the wines on top of that to make sure they are organic, and free of pesticides, and free of mold. But then they also test the alcohol and the sugar content, which when you're drinking low sugar, low alcohol wines, it's just such a massive difference. But yeah, the reason I'm thinking it's doable is the Vivino app I love and you scan bottles with it and it comes up with the bottle, and people write reviews, and it has all the information, and it has almost every wine that I scan ever so it's possible to do. Let me know listeners if that would be something of interest.  

Back to Carrie. She says, "I feel like my body is not my own even after all these years of battling the things I have not grown accustomed to it. I feel like I am battling it all the time, but I do not know why. I cannot figure out what is wrong and that is hard for me because I am a fixer." And then, what's interesting is, Carrie sent us this whole email and she didn't mention what she's eating, which is something I actually want to talk about. I emailed her to ask, what she's eating? And she said, "I eat meat, seafood, eggs, lots of veggies, salads with homemade vinaigrette, feta or parmesan, and toasted walnuts or pecans, a variety of fruits, fats, butter, avocado, olive oil, occasional cheese, processed foods like tortilla chips, occasional candy, especially, when the kids share Halloween candy, taco shells, occasional desserts, basmati rice a few times a month. I rarely eat bread and when I do its usually Ezekiel, no milk, sometimes a tiny bowl of ice cream but again once a month, a little sour cream. We do not eat out a ton because we're busy with the kids and work. I'm not perfect with my diet partly because I know it's not sustainable and if I try and fail, I will just say, nope."  

I want to circle back to this. She says, "So, I try to make the best choices as often as I can. Sometimes, I have the cupcake the kids didn't take to Boy Scouts. So, I guess my questions for you are, here we go. Number one, "Podcast listening. I love it. But should I continue working my way through it," because she has started at the beginning, "Or start with the most current and go backwards?" I'm about three years behind right now." I thought this was a really great question. I don't think anybody's ever asked us this before.  

Gin Stephens: No. I don't think so either.  

Melanie Avalon: Gin, what are your thoughts?  

Gin Stephens: I don't know. I feel like I might would start with the most current and go backwards. When we started, so many things have changed. For example, remember when we like the first year, we got that question about CBD oil and we're like, "We think that might be illegal. Don't do that." [laughs] And now, it's like there's a CBD store on every block, right? 

Melanie Avalon: I was just thinking about that. I was ordering some more Feals and I was like, "Wow, things have come so far."  

Gin Stephens: Because we're like, "I don't know. It's against the law probably. Don't use that." Times have changed so much. So, probably listening to the early ones might even be like a hilarious. [laughs] I don’t know.  

Melanie Avalon: I probably suggest doing-- so, the way I handle podcast is-- so, I listen to the new ones as they're coming out, and then, well it depends on what type of show it is. But then, I usually go back and find the episodes that look intriguing and listen to them. But yeah, you could binge listen. A lot of people tell us that. A lot of people write in and say that they're starting at the beginning. I'd be really curious to know how many people, in general, our listeners-- our new listeners, how they approach it. Like, do they go back? That's a good question.  

Gin Stephens: I would definitely listen to the new ones as they come out and also Intermittent Fasting Stories. If people are not listening to that one yet, that's one that I think-- and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, I would be more likely to listen to recent of all of them versus going deep dive way back in the archives, unless, you're really looking for something to listen to, and then, that would be tell us the funniest thing you heard from Episode Two or whatever we know. Anyway, I just think we would probably cringe at some of the things we might have said early on.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's such a different format, like the Biohacking Podcast would definitely be one. It doesn't-- 

Gin Stephens: It's not sequential.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's like episodic. So, any-- 

Gin Stephens: Same with IF Stories. 

Melanie Avalon: You would basically just go on the topics that you want to listen to. This one it's a lot of the same topic but yeah, it's a good question. So, number two is, "Two and a half months with zero results a thing. All the questions I've heard, no one else asked about going this long with no weight loss. I keep listening, thinking someday someone will ask all the same questions and the clouds will part, the angels will sing, and I'll know what to do." So, two and a half months with zero results.  

Gin Stephens: All right. So, here is a place where Intermittent Fasting Stories can come to the rescue. There are lots of episodes. Lots and lots of episodes out there, but two that really stand out for me as episodes for going a long time with no weight loss. One of the most recent ones that I did has still been a while. Episode 125, Roxi. If you just go to like Google and type in Intermittent Fasting Stories, Roxi, it'll help you find Roxi's episode. But Roxi started intermittent fasting, she was feeling great, she was rolling along, losing no weight at all. Then, she went back to her doctor and had a re-check. She had been diagnosed with fatty liver disease before she started fasting. Doing intermittent fasting for all these months, went back to the doctor, her fatty liver disease was completely reversed, but she hadn't lost any weight. So, it didn't show up on the scale, but clearly her body was busy doing something, which is pretty exciting.  

Now, there's another episode to look at. Oh, and by the way, I just want to say imagine, if Roxi had quit, because she thought it wasn't working for her. "Oh, this isn't working. I'm going to quit." She was clearing out a fatty liver. So, eventually she did go on to start losing pounds on the scale and she's gotten smaller or sizes changed, but that episode just really always inspires me and her story.  

Melanie Avalon: How much did she weigh?  

Gin Stephens: I don't remember the weight exactly but she was overweight.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I'm just wondering if she was obese.  

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure exactly whether she was in the obese category or not but she definitely had the fatty liver. So, having a fatty liver, it's not something you want. So, here's another story that is, it's Episode 50, and it's Renee and Joel. They are mother-son. Renee is the mother, Joel is the son, and when they started intermittent fasting, they both started it at the same time. He did not lose a single pound for the first eight months of doing IF. But in the ninth month, the weight just started to fall right off, he didn't change a thing, just boom. The weight started to go and he lost the 20 pounds that he wanted to lose after eight months of losing nothing. So, listen to those two stories.  

The thing is that something is happening in the body. You know what was going on in Joel's body? I don't know. Maybe, his insulin was coming down. Listening to this, Why We Get Sick? If he had hyperinsulinemia, insulin is such a storage hormone. It may be all that was happening for eight months is his body's fasted insulin level, his level of circulating insulin that goes around all the time was going down, down, down, down, down. Then, when it got to a certain point, bam he was able to lose the weight he wanted to lose. That 20 pounds dropped off so quickly after nothing.  

Melanie Avalon: That's like Gary Taubes' theory about the insulin threshold. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, absolutely. I totally believe that could be a factor. For Roxi, fatty liver, fatty liver, fatty liver, bam. All of a sudden, she started losing the weight. So, something good is happening in the body when you're doing intermittent fasting and you can't always see it. So, there was that.  

Melanie Avalon: She didn't say what window she's doing, does she?  

Gin Stephens: Well, she said that minimum of 16 and sometimes 20 to 21. Here's what I've noticed from years in the Intermittent Fasting Community. When people would say, "I always do at least whatever, and sometimes, I did this." If they start tracking their fasts on an app, they realize that they might skew a lot more to the 16 and less to the 20 than they thought. That's just something to keep in mind. If you're fast or usually 16, 16, 16, 16, every now and then you do a 20 or 21, you're likely not getting into that peak fat burning that starts to ramp up around our 18. Just pushing it to 19 consistently instead of 16 consistently could make a difference. Just something to consider. Try an app and see what you're doing. Because for me, I needed a consistent 19 to really get that fat burning in and to lose the weight that I wanted to lose. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I guess for me, so, I think it's very telling for Carrie, well, first of all, Carrie, I really, really identify with you and I can see why you feel like our stories are really similar because for listeners, who are not familiar, a lot of my health issues started with GI distress, and SIBO, and antibiotics, and just feeling like my gut got off after this catalyzing incident, and just being a rocky road ever since then. So, I completely identify and I know what this is like for so many people. This isn't even about the weight loss. This is about the health issues that she was experiencing. You just you know something's off, and you just want to find answers, and you try all the things like Carrie has done. So, parasites, and heavy metals, and herbs, and cleanses, and going after this liver virus, and antibiotics, and just trying all these different things. I know that it's very scary and it can feel very disheartening. So, I'm completely there with you.  

For me what happened, I hit burnout with all of it. I hit a point where I was like, "I don't care." Like, I'm not testing anymore, I'm not going to try to fix whatever the specific thing is through a specific supplement or through a specific thing, and I don't know that the ideal mindset to be in either, but the takeaway that I learned from all of that and where I am now, it's really easy to get caught up in the minutiae and try to go after these specific things that you think might be in you or that might be off. When I think if you just step back and breathe, and take a more holistic approach that's foundationally based on diet and food, I think there's massive, massive potential there. You can be doing all these things, but if you're taking in food that is not supporting your gut microbiome and it's contributing to these issues, that's difficult to address. And then, on top of that, there's so much potential that can be gained when you are eating a diet that's really, really supporting your body and helping address that. All that said, so, as far as like, where to focus and like, "Where the answer is?" There might be things that you really, really do need to focus on and address. 

So, for me, the heavy metals were really bad for me. My blood levels of mercury were over 30 which is just shocking. So, that was something I did need to address. For me, I do have to keep monitoring my anemia, for example. That's not something I can just be like, "Oh, I'll just eat food and be okay." No, I actually, I use InsideTracker and I stay on top of my ferritin and my iron because that mine has a tendency to drop. So, there are things that are important to focus on and keep in mind, but I think maybe getting out of the detox mindset and entering a healing diet food mindset can't be understated. I also empathize as well. Carrie has this mindset of the perfectionism mindset. So, she's worried that, I'm going to say it again. She says, "I'm not perfect with my diet partly because I know it's not sustainable and if I try and fail, I will just say, no." So, that's really hard to navigate because I as well, I'm a perfectionist and an all or none person. And I know it's very easy, it's a slippery slope, where some people respond to not being perfect with just throwing it all out the window, which is a really interesting mindset justification that we make that doesn't have to be. So, you can still strive for perfect and then, if you're not perfect, that's okay. But if you're not perfect, it doesn't mean that you throw everything out the window and just lapse into rebelling against perfectionism. You can still strive for perfect but things can be good.  

It's interesting, I just finished Cynthia Thurlow's new book, and she talks about this, and she recommends a, I think, she calls it a good, better, best mindset. So, she says, "Every single day is either a best day." So, that would be like the equivalent of "perfect." So, you ate all the foods you want to eat, you did the fasting the way you want to do it, etc., Then, there's the better day. So, that's where like, you're almost there but some things were like a little bit off, and then, there's the good days, which maybe more things are off, but either way, you're always making progress. So, I would really suggest that mindset, Carrie, applying that to your diet. So, striving for those best days rather than saying, "I'm not even going to try." Because I know you don't want to track and you don't want to be perfect, but it might be that you're not going to be able to make the progress that you want without addressing the actual food choices of your eating window. Intermittent fasting can be amazing. But for some people, it's not going to be enough to actually make the change. We can tweak the window, we can fast more, but at some point, some people, you've just got to look at what you're eating. 

Gin Stephens: And you know to me, that's funny to hear you say that, because what she described is what she eats sounds pretty great. It sounds very cleanish. It's very much like the way I eat. She's eating meat, seafood, eggs, lots of veggies, salad with homemade dressing. It sounded like a pretty, pretty great diet to me.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's the thing. So, I think what it sounds like to me, just looking at it briefly, skimming through the foods like, "Oh, this is a good diet." So, I think maybe she's found a safety within that, when you're saying people, they think they're fasting a certain amount but they're not quite. I think it might be the situation with the food. So, she feels like it's healthy, but the cheese, the fat, the processed food, if her insulin levels are high enough and her carb intake is enough such that she is at a more of a storing mode than having the fats, the cheese, the things like that, they might be every time she's eating, adding in enough excess nutrition that she's not going to ever lose weight unless she gets a little bit more strict.  

Gin Stephens: That's what my tweaks recommended would address that exact thing would be try to delay the alcohol for a month. See what happens if you just avoid the alcohol and just push that window length a little bit. That would give you the same benefit in lowering your insulin because you're fasting a little bit more. It seemed like a pretty good a balanced kind of a way because otherwise you're just like dieting hardcore. So many of us don't want to diet hardcore.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay, that's the mindset I'm trying to dismantle right now. Because she's eating what she's eating but she doesn't want to diet hardcore.  

Gin Stephens: Right. I don't think she needs to change what she's eating.  

Melanie Avalon: She could substantially change what she's eating without it being dieting hardcore.  

Gin Stephens: See, I don't think she needs to substantially change what she's eating. I guess, that's where we're having that disconnect. She has occasional candy. I eat tortilla chips. I eat occasional candy. She seems like she's eating a very good diet to me. I don't know. To change it up would seem hardcore to me.  

Melanie Avalon: I think for some people if they're eating fats and carbs in their meals, especially, cheese in there, butter in there, nuts in there, cheese, nuts, things like that can easily be very weight promoting. It might be that in order to lose the weight, it doesn't have to be crazy. But eating just Whole Foods, so no longer adding additional fats like still eating your normal meats but not adding the fats, not adding nuts, not adding cheese, you might see massive, massive changes. It doesn't have to be like counting calories, and it doesn't have to be super intense, but just making some tweaks, and that's what I'm trying to dismantle like, there's a lot of change she can make to her diet. That's not going to be crazy dieting, it doesn't have to seem like really restrictive, but it might make super, huge changes pretty quickly. It could also be a macros approach. So, if you do want to keep in the fats, maybe, you're trying low carb. There're different ways that you could try it. But you could tweak it within a paradigm that is not super restrictive, not super crazy, but might be addressing the things that might be making it impossible. 

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Gin Stephens: I think that probably a good majority of the people out there don't want to tweak by eating less fat, or less carbs, or go low fat, or go low carb, I think we just want to eat real food. I don't want to have a potato with no butter or butter with no potato. I want to have a potato with butter. The way that I and a lot of people are able to have the potato with the butter is by focusing on maybe a 19-hour daily fast instead of 16, and by being careful with how much alcohol and things like that. I know that some people are really excited to try leaving out certain macros. But I think a lot of people really just don't want to do that. I don't know. Something to think about. She could certainly do whichever of those seems appealing to her. We've given her a lot of tools to pick from, I think. 

Melanie Avalon: I don't want to make blanket statements because I don't know what the majority of people want.  

Gin Stephens: Can I be honest with something? Somebody in my community listened to last week's episode, where we talked a lot about cheese and nuts, and was a little salty about it. There was some feedback of feeling like, we are telling people what to eat and what not to eat. She said, "We." She wasn't talking about you, it's about me and you. A very interesting discussion ensued in the community. So, that's why I wanted to bring that up. A lot of people really don't want to count macros. They don't want to do the low fat, they don't want to do the low carb, they just want to eat food. 

Melanie Avalon: What's interesting is, I had some feedback as well, but it was the complete opposite. This is why I think like, I'm just about telling people options and you find what works for you. People just find what works for you but we had one listener write in and she was saying that, I think she was talking about the protein and the fruit. We made the suggestion about maybe trying to bring in other types of carbs because, maybe you could have them and then she reported back to me, she was like, "Nope, you know that didn't work at all." I think it's all very individual and I think we see the world through the way we approach it. So, for me, I do better with macros, and I do better being more strict on what I'm eating. And some people are like that as well. I think you see through the lens of not like that.  

My foundational thing, though is that, I think people are so nervous about falling into restrictive diety mindsets and they don't want to ever count calories, they don't want to ever track anything that sometimes it can be-- we like to ignore the fact that certain foods are very likely weight promoting, and make it harder to lose weight if they're in there, and that might just be-- I don't like to ever saying something is a reality, but approaching a reality. That's why I'm trying to suggest like the good, better, best approach, and I just thought it was really interesting that she didn't even mention what she was eating. The email I cut it down from, it was probably three times as long. But there wasn't any mention of the foods, which said to me that there wasn't a focus at all on the food. She probably feels like the food is a healthy approach, and so, there's not much tweak there, and I just think there's so much progress that can happen if things are tweaked. I am never trying to enforce or impose my beliefs on anybody. This is going to sound callous, but I really could care less when people do. Like, "Do what you want, I don't care." I just want to tell people, what has worked for me and it may or may not work for you. But if things aren't resonating with people, I'm sorry. But it doesn't really bother me-- that does not bother me.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. The feedback was that, we were demonizing cheese and nuts. I really don't think that we came across as demonizing cheese and nuts. We were just saying, they're easy to overeat. But that's not us saying those are off the menu. I eat cheese, I eat nuts, but I am mindful that I can easily over eat cheese. But I'm not overeating cheese right now.  

Melanie Avalon: I know the way I've talked about cheese and nuts. I don't think I've demonized them. I have not intended to. I do think pretty objectively they are foods that can be very weight promoting. So, it sounds like a defensive reaction because people want to keep it in. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I definitely want to keep cheese and nuts in my diet and I want to eat them. I just need to be mindful. The same with like tortilla chips. She eats tortilla chips, I eat tortilla chips. But I mindfully eat them and I choose really high-quality ones. 

Melanie Avalon: So, a simple concept of cheese is easily weight promoting. Again, I don't like to say anything black or white, I'm fairly certain that that's a pretty accurate statement. So, what you do with that is up to you. So, you know you can keep it in moderation, find the way that it works for you, it doesn't change the fact that it might be weight promoting if had in excess, which often happens. 

Gin Stephens: Right. I think that's often very key said in excess and it's just hard to know. You're probably not going to have broccoli in excess, but it is a lot more likely to have cheese in excess. So, I just wanted to point that out. 

Melanie Avalon: Literally, listeners, do what you want. [laughs] Do what you want. I just think it's funny because I think people, I know we're on like tangents, but I think sometimes people think that I have an agenda or I'm trying to convince people of anything. I really not. Like, do what you want. I'm just going to tell you what worked for me, and what I've learned, and what I think might help. Yes, I have no agenda. 

Gin Stephens: I do have an agenda. Do you know what it is? I want people to enjoy what they're eating without stressing about it. That is it. That is what I know you do, too. But that is what Clean(ish) is all about. it is figuring out what things you want to include. There's the 'ish.' I know that a tortilla chip fried in an oil that is one of those inflammatory oils is not great for my body. But I'm still going to include them in small amounts because I enjoy them. I'm not going to veer so far to perfection that I'm not enjoying the way I love and you're not either, Melanie. You very much enjoy the way you live. But it's a matter of finding your own balance of what foods you enjoy that make you feel good. My friend, Laurie Lewis, she says it beautifully. She says, "You want to love the foods that love you back. You want to pick the foods that make you feel great and are delicious, and you're balanced in a way that your weight ends up being at a stable level, where you feel comfortable." Sometimes, you do have to make some, like that period of time where I didn't drink alcohol and I didn't have those tortilla chips or other ultra-processed foods for 10 weeks.  

This was in the spring of 2015. So, would you say that I was dieting? All right, maybe so. I was not having certain things because my goal was to lose weight more quickly. I still ate a lot of good things, I had plenty of fats and carbs together, but I just didn't have alcohol or ultra-processed foods. Potato with butter, yes. Tortilla chips, no. I lost weight the most quickly I ever lost two pounds a week and then kept it all off. That was that kind of a thing. But it was delicious and I enjoyed it. So, my agenda and I think Melanie's, too, is for you to find a way to get the results you're looking for while loving the journey.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, exactly. This is what you just said but it might be for certain people with certain goals. But you do have to do some sort of tweak. 

Gin Stephens: There's the delay, delay, delay the extra cheese that whenever you eat it, you don't lose weight. Whatever it is. For me, it was delaying the alcohol. So, someone might say, "Gin is anti-alcohol." No, I'm not. I wish I could enjoy it more. My body tells me, "Nope, that's too much for you. I have to have a little bit." But I'm certainly not anti. I just know that for me, that is a big, big factor. So, I'm always going to suggest that, that might be something to look at.  

Melanie Avalon: I'll just read really quickly her next question. She says, "I'm sure there will be more supplements introduced to me through future episodes as I catch up. Based on my situation, do you have any you really recommend for me? Obviously, you're not doctors. I get that. Based on anecdotal evidence, are there any that you recommend?" Again, so, this was from her original email, which did not mention anything about food? Again, it was this five I got of looking for the answer in a supplement rather than the foundation of diet.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I don't think there're any supplements out there that you can take that. It is like the reason you're not losing weight that I can just blanket say is everybody's reason. Maybe, let's say, your thyroid is all messed up. A thyroid medication or thyroid support is obviously going to be transformational for your body. But that doesn't mean everybody needs to go take thyroid medicine or a thyroid supplement. So, there's nothing we can blanket say, "Here's what you need to help the weight loss happen." 

Melanie Avalon: I will say, one I do in general, that one that I do take every day though. But this is not to lose weight but to help with insulin sensitivity and stuff like that is I do take berberine every day. But there's not some sort of magical supplement that is going to make you lose weight. And then, her last thing she says, "Tips, advice, or anything I may not have thought of. I wish you both a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Much love," Carrie. So, keep us updated with how your journey goes. I will say, I really, really like her mindset. Despite all of this, she said multiple times, she said things like how she like, I'm paraphrasing, but something about how she doesn't know why she's going through this. But she knows there's a reason, and she's not giving up hope, and we're right there with you. Like, your mindset is really, really wonderful, and I know you'll find answers, and I do want you to know that I've definitely been there with everything just feeling like it fell off the wagon health wise, and not knowing what to do. So, I applaud you for really taking agency and trying to find answers, because a lot of people don't. So, yeah, you'll find it. 

Gin Stephens: I did have one more thing I wanted to pop in there, and it was me circling back to the fact that she did the ZOE program, and I really think if you've got all that data from ZOE, that could really help you figure out your diet without trying to be perfect about it. Because again, ZOE doesn't expect you to be perfect, you're not trying to get hundred on your score. So, if you put the meat in and it takes you down to a 70, you might be like, "Oh, this is terrible." But actually, it's not. That 70 is not a terrible score. So, you may want to listen to Episode 170 of Intermittent Fasting Stories. I interviewed Kristi Osborn. She's also really active in the Delay, Don't Deny Community. For anyone who's looking for that, you can go to ginstephens.com/community. Kristi's story is pretty amazing. She was also having a really hard time losing weight, loved intermittent fasting, and how she felt.  

But once she really embraced ZOE, and she doesn't like tracking either. She's not like loving the tracking part or trying to be perfect with ZOE. But it absolutely changed everything. So, I just wanted to pop that in there. She finally lost a lot of weight. She's actually in the community and she is part of the-- we have a little ZOE space in the Delay, Don’t Deny Community where people can come and talk about their experiences. She really does a great job guiding people how to make the most of it without letting it make you crazy. Because if you look at it through the lens of perfectionism, and like, it's a diet that's telling you what you have to eat and what you can't eat, that would be very like that diet brain kind of thing going on. Instead of like, "Oh look, my avocado toast score is higher with more avocado than adding an extra egg or something." It just might surprise you. You had to tweak those food combinations to get a higher score for you.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and actually to that point, the mindset that's worked well for me. So, if you are addressing the types of foods you are eating, focusing on unlimited of certain types of foods rather than like, "Oh, I can't have this, I can't have that." Being like, "Oh, I can have unlimited of all of these foods and then--"  

Gin Stephens: [laughs] That's just so the opposite of the way I could be. If I get told myself, "I can have unlimited of anything, I just don't do well with that approach."  

Melanie Avalon: Within the certain macronutrient that I'm following.  

Gin Stephens: I know. But I'm just saying that, it is just so interesting how our minds like the way that we-- I'm trying to explain how to put it. I don't know. I could overeat something if I told myself that's unlimited. Okay, I'm sorry.  

Melanie Avalon: Even if it was within an intense macro nutrient. So, unlimited within a low-carb world or unlimited within a low-fat world.  

Gin Stephens: I'm pretty sure I did overeat when I was unlimited in the low-carb world because I never lost any weight.  

Melanie Avalon: I guess, I do high protein, low fat. It's so funny. IF turned so many people onto this. I'm really trying to think of this should be my next book.  

Gin Stephens: High protein, low fat, is that what you said?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But lean meats and fruits specifically for me. This is what I've been doing for years. It is like unlimited lean protein, unlimited cucumbers, unlimited fruit, all I want. It's just a setup because of the metabolism of those macronutrients, especially, within a fasted window. It's very unlikely you'll gain weight and if anything, you might lose weight.  

Gin Stephens: I just know that the one reason I never did Weight Watchers is, they have the zero-point foods. I'm pretty sure I would be overeating zero-point foods, I'd be gaming that system and probably gaining weight. [laughs] I don't know. I just know my own mindset. I do much better focusing on satiety, listening to those hunger cues instead of telling myself this one's on limited. I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Which I guess the foods I focus on, like, protein is the highest for satiety. So, it's like a double whammy. But yeah. People view the world all different ways.  

Gin Stephens: It is. Just like, we were naming foods whether we liked them or not. We were the opposite on all of them.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, Gin and I, yeah, [laughs] I can tell you, every food Gin won't like or will like based on if I like it or not.  

Gin Stephens: Probably for a lot of them. Does Gin like cucumbers?  

Melanie Avalon: You like cucumbers?  

Gin Stephens: No.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Do you like lima beans?  

Gin Stephens: I love lima beans.  

Melanie Avalon: I can't stand lima beans.  

Gin Stephens: If you told me, I could just have unlimited lima beans, I would just eat lima beans till I exploded.  

Melanie Avalon: If there's one bean I can't, like, lima beans. Or, what about hazelnuts?  

Gin Stephens: I like hazelnuts. They're so good.  

Melanie Avalon: I don't like hazelnuts or oranges.  

Gin Stephens: I love oranges.  

Melanie Avalon: I love most foods. So, that's the thing. There are very few foods I don't like.  

Gin Stephens: There's really very few foods I don't like. 

Melanie Avalon: What do you not like?  

Gin Stephens: I don't like cucumbers. Well, when I start listing them, I don't like anything that you're going to have on sushi. Let me put it that way. When I was in Tampa-- 

Melanie Avalon: Ginger?  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I like ginger. Okay. I like ginger. I like ginger, I like wasabi, I like the sauces. But everything they roll up, I mean, I like rice. But anything else practically that they're going to roll up in there, I don't like the cucumber and they all have cucumber. I don't like fish, they all have fish.  

Melanie Avalon: I love fish.  

Gin Stephens: [sighs] Anyway, it's like the one restaurant I do not want to go to you with is a sushi restaurant because I have a hard time finding anything I want.  

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. What is the one food you dislike the most? Oh, I don't like oysters.  

Gin Stephens: I don't like any kind of fish and I don't like oysters.  

Melanie Avalon: But mine is probably oranges.  

Gin Stephens: I love oranges. You do not like oranges that much?  

Melanie Avalon: They give me a raging headache.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, I love them. If I'm ever sick, I start to crave orange juice and it always makes me feel better. I need the pulpy kind. Pulpy orange juice, love it.  

Melanie Avalon: Oranges and grapefruits.  

Gin Stephens: I like grapefruits.  

Melanie Avalon: I think I have a reaction to some compound--  

Gin Stephens: To citrus?  

Melanie Avalon: I love lime and lemon. There's something in orange that just-- 

Gin Stephens: That's so interesting.  

Melanie Avalon: You're not a huge watermelon fan, right?  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I hate it. It's gross. I don't like any kind of melon. See, I think cucumbers are in that Melanie kind of. I don't like cucumber or any kind of melon. I don't eat a fruit salad that has melon in it because it has infected the rest of the fruit with its grossness. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, the best, because I'm a fruit lover and out of the fruits, all of the melons.  

Gin Stephens: I like pineapple, I like oranges, I like strawberries, I like any kind of berry. 

Melanie Avalon: I like berries.  

Gin Stephens: I'll eat an apple if it's in a pie.  

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny.  

Gin Stephens: It really is. It is so funny.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this was a fun time. So, for listeners, if you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go at ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode248. Definitely follow us on Instagram because we just got actually a new fabulous woman who is going to be helping us with our Instagram. Shoutout to Shannon. So, we're going to start posting and interacting there more. Oh, and in case you're wondering, it's not like just Shannon. I am very much-- Gin and I are both, we see it and I'm there. When I go on to my Instagram on my phone, I'm there. Don’t want to think they were like outsourcing it. So, definitely follow us on Instagram @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon on Instagram. Gin is @ginstephens, and I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Gin, before we go? 

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this was absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.  

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

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More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 247 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can skip a 150,000 people waitlist and finally get something that we love and talk about on this show all the time, a continuous glucose monitor, also known as a CGM. Wearing a CGM has honestly been one of the most profound bio hacks that I have personally experienced for understanding how I respond to food, what type of diet and fasting work for me, and truly taking charge of my health. A continuous glucose monitor is an easy to apply sensor that you put onto your arm and guess what? It continuously monitors your blood glucose, also known as your blood sugar. With a CGM, you can literally see in almost real time how foods are affecting your blood sugar levels, how your blood sugar levels change during your fast, how exercise affects them, and so much more. CGMs used to only be available to diabetics or if you had a prescription, but now, Levels is changing all of that. Yep, Levels is making CGMs accessible to everyone. With Levels you get a prescription for a CGM and then you sync it with their amazing app, which lets you track your blood sugar over time, see graphs of your data, get your own metabolic score, and see how that changes, log your meals, and so much more. I am obsessed with wearing CGMs. I've been experimenting with them and talking about them on this show for months now. But even if you just wear one once I think you will learn so, so much about your body and about your health.  

Here's the thing. Levels has a waitlist of 150,000 people, but no worries. For my audience, you can skip that and get one right now. Just go to levels.link/ifpodcast. That's Levels dot link slash IF podcast to skip that waitlist of 150,000 people. If you'd like to learn all of the science of Levels, you can check out my interview with the founder, Casey Means, that's at melanieavalon.com/levels, and definitely check out my Instagram, because I have so many reels about how to put on a CGM, it is painless, and so, so easy to do, I promise. Again, that's levels.link/ifpodcast and I'll put all this information in the show notes.  

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

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And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show. 

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 247 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens.  

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: And this is not really relevant anymore for listeners but happy late Christmas, Gin. 

Gin Stephens: Well, thank you. Thank you and happy New Year to you and all the things. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. When this airs, it will be 2022. Although, last week, last week as well, I guess.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. This is our second New Year episode even though, we're still recording it in the past. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Crazy, how that works.  

Gin Stephens: Wonder how the future looks.  

Melanie Avalon: How are things in your world? Anything new?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I just want to say thank you for being such a good, well-prepared podcast host on your Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast because I just had a podcast interview last week and it was set up by my publisher. It's a big-name person. I'm not going to say who because I don't want anybody to listen to it. [laughs] Because it's very clear this person didn't even read my book. But yeah, it was so very clear. He had not read anything. First of all, he got the title wrong when he was saying it. Did he got the title of my other book wrong? Didn't he like said, "Oh look, a book that lets you cheat." I'm like, "Oh, my God, no. What? No." Then he's like, "How many days a year can you cheat?" I'm like, "Oh, my God, why am I here?" What am I doing? [laughs] It's really, really-- Everybody else I've ever talked to has been like, you could tell they read it, or at least they read enough of it to really understand what it was about. I think all he did was look at the cover. Maybe, just a picture of the cover. I don’t know. 

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny.  

Gin Stephens: That really goes to show you take the time you read the book, you dig in with your guests. I've been a guest on your podcast and I just wanted to say thank you for doing that, and I know your audience appreciates it as well. Maybe, he doesn't have a lot of people that listen to his podcast. I hope not. It might be millions. I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I've found that, I actually think because I listen to a lot of podcasts, and I think the ones that really shine are the ones where they do do a deep dive, like I talk about how I listen to Rich Role a lot, and he is well, really, really-- You can tell, he's like really reads all the books. He's at that show for about, I think six years or seven years, and he always talks about how-- he never takes a vacation and how he's working on it just 24/7. And it makes me feel better because I'm like, "Okay, it is normal to be doing this 24/7." 

Gin Stephens: Well, if I have a guest on-- For Intermittent Fasting Stories, most of my guests are just not authors. They're just intermittent fasters, telling their stories. But sometimes, I do have someone on there like, Cynthia Thurlow with her new book that's coming out in March, and I read it before I talked to her about it. I mean, I did. I took that time and it just feels, it was just so funny, because luckily it was a really short. It's like a 17-minute interview, which is really it was like a segment of a bigger one. But I was like, "Well, this certainly, nobody's going to be reading it after listening to this interview anyway."  

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. Oh, my goodness.  

Gin Stephens: it was funny but the others I've had have been fabulous. I'm grateful to all of them and I'm grateful for this one too, because maybe one person who hears that as be like, at least interested to look it up. I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: Were you able to redirect with your answer like clarify?  

Gin Stephens: I tried. I did my best but-- [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's funny.  

Gin Stephens: It is. It is funny. 

Melanie Avalon: Crazy that you bring up Cynthia Thurlow. That's what I was going to talk about.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I love her. 

Melanie Avalon: In the intro, two things. I as well, am reading her book right now, because she's coming on my show as well. I'm really enjoying it a lot. I really like how she dives into the hormones, like all the specific roles of the hormones, and for listeners, it's geared towards women specifically for fasting. It's funny because when I first started reading it, I was like, "Okay." I mean, it was really good, but I was wondering if I was going to learn anything new. But I do really appreciate her dive into hormones. I have not gotten to the part yet with the actual specifics of her plan. So, I'm not sure how it lines up exactly with things we talked about on this show, but it does seem to be a very good resource for listeners. 

Gin Stephens: She's a bit more conservative when it comes to women and fasting than I am and you are. That's just important to know like with your cycle. It might be like, I'm such a big eater, and you like to eat a lot, too. So, I just have less fear that women aren't eating enough because you know, if you're listening to your body, you're not going to over restrict. So, I don't know. I think she's more of a restrained eater, perhaps. So, if you're a restrained eater, I feel like you would worry more about women not getting it being able to eat enough. Does that make sense?  

Melanie Avalon: Like if you'd experienced it before?  

Gin Stephens: Through your lens, someone who doesn't eat a lot is more of a restrained eater and they would realize that maybe you can't eat "enough" [laughs] in a certain window.  

Melanie Avalon: I just had an epiphany. She's like a blend-- well, she's more like me in that she does prescribe eating certain types of food in your window. So, she advocates like Whole Foods based and typically lower carb, but she talks about carb cycling as well. But she does talk about what foods to eat. I do think when you're eating, well, just from a pure calorie percentage, it is more likely if you're eating Whole Foods or eating like low carb, specifically, I think that you might eat less. Because if you're eating all processed foods, it's really easy to eat thousands, and thousands, and thousands of calories.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, well. Yeah. I don't know anybody who promotes that's the best way, the processed foods, you know what I mean?  

Melanie Avalon: Not that they promote that. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean some people do, I guess. That's what they think IF is. 

Melanie Avalon: True.  

Gin Stephens: Or if you just read the title of any of my books, you might think that's what I say, too. Then, you actually read it and go, "Oh, that isn't what Gin said."  

Melanie Avalon: So, the difference would be, so with Fast. Feast. Repeat., there's not a huge, huge focus just as much as there could be. 

Gin Stephens: The whole feast section is about choosing, going away from ultra-processed foods towards real foods, but when you're ready.  

Melanie Avalon: Right. It's not to the extent of my book or Cynthia's book.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm not taking a side. Like, you should be low carb, everybody should be low carb, or everyone needs carbs, a lot of carbs. Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: So, maybe, the type of person who's addressing both of those right at the beginning and more intensely could more likely underrate. Maybe, I don't know. I'm just thinking. 

Gin Stephens: Yep. And I love her. She is more delightful in person than she is even virtually. Because she's great. I met her in Tampa when I was there in November. She and I definitely agree that women should not over restrict. That's important. Especially, hormonally, it can definitely affect our hormones. I don't think you just shouldn't do fasting certain times of the month. I never stopped fasting just because of what day of my cycle it was, but I may have had increased hunger naturally. Because I got better at listening to my body. I naturally had a longer eating window.  

I actually remember joking in my Facebook group one time that, every month, I would have a day where I was starving and be like, "Why am I so hungry today?' And every day, yeah, the next day, you know, boom, there we go, it's low or whatever you call it. But every month that surprised me, but I always had that day of increased hunger where I ate more, and I was like, "Wow, that was surprising. Why am I so hungry?" I'm like, "Oh, da." [laughs] But I always listened. I didn't feel like I was feeling. If I have different hunger, I'd always listen.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited to talk to her about that specifically, when she comes on my show. For me, I would never want to-- because I eat do pretty much the same eating window every night. For me, personally, I would not want to change my fasting in eating windows for my cycle. Honestly, that would just add more stress to everything. I'd rather just eat more in my eating window when I'm hungrier. That's how I would compensate.  

Gin Stephens: I've always just been very, like, even when I was trying to have a five-hour window every day, I talked about this before as well. I made a goal that like, it was like, it was 2016. June of 2016, it's my goal, I'm going to have a perfect month where every eating window will be five hours or less. Well, that didn't happen in June, and I was like, "I'm going to do it in July." It didn't happen in July. I've never had a month of my life, or every month, or every day was five hours or less. Because I just said like, "Oh, we're out. Let's go out to eat."  

And I'll have two meals that day, and maybe it's an eight-hour window, and I'm more of like a social kind of, "Today, I'm going to open my window wider or I'm hungry today. I'm just going to go ahead and eat now." So, I just tossed those in. I think that's been helpful over time. I've never been overly rigid. even when I tried to be. Other than, there were like 10 weeks in the spring of 2015, when I was trying to get to goal that I was a little more strict for those 10 weeks. I don't even know if I was perfect for those 10 weeks, I doubt it knowing myself, but that's been a long time ago.  

Melanie Avalon: For me, it's not that I'm being, because I'm just thinking about it more like super rigid, it's just that the way I have my life set up. I'm working the same amount every day up until I eat. So, opening up the window earlier doesn't really make sense for me, and then, it's not like, I can eat later because I go to bed. So, it takes care of itself. It's self-contained. 

Gin Stephens: I'm just a little more spontaneous and flexible, just because that's my personality, I guess. I don't do well with overly rigid. If Will came home right now and said-- you know, I don't normally open my window right now. But it's a lot earlier in the day, although I mean, I totally could. If he came home and said, "Hey, I really want to go blah, blah, blah, here with you. Would you go with me out?" I'll be like, "Sure." 

Melanie Avalon: I think that's one reason that our show works so well, because we're able to cover a lot more approaches. It works so well that we are like that. Because you cover all the people that are more fluid and like what you just said, and then, I'm the people that are like the same window all the time.  

Gin Stephens: On the flip side of that, when I was that 10 weeks, when I was really trying to get to my goal, I was a little more rigid. If you have a goal to lose weight, if you're too flexible, it just probably isn't going to happen. You may need to tighten up for the weight loss phase. But again, if I look back to my history of intermittent fasting when I really committed in 2014, now, here we are when this airs in 2022, right? That's a long time. 2014 to 2022 is a lot of years. I was a lot more mindful for the very brief period of that time when I was trying to lose weight. But once I got to my goal, that's where the flexibility came in. If my honesty pants get tight, I'm like, "Okay, time to tighten up my window a little bit." And it's the ebb and the flow that really make it work long term. 

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Melanie Avalon: The reason I was bringing up Cynthia was too par. I was going to talk about something else, but while we're talking about it, this actually relates completely to our first question. Do we want to go ahead and do that one?  

Gin Stephens: Sure.  

Melanie Avalon: I really like you like dovetails in into it. We have a question from Bethany, and her subject is: "food not enough too much?" So great. She says, "Hi, Melanie and Gin, I absolutely love your podcast. I have learned so much and I look forward to listening every day. Like most listeners, I have tried several diet programs including intermittent fasting done incorrectly. I came across your podcast by accident a few weeks ago, and I'm so happy I did. I've lost 10 pounds and several inches since I realized putting stevia in my coffee, was hurting me, not helping me. Clean fasting makes all the difference. I am on episode 20, but I've been listening nonstop to try to get caught up. So, I apologize if this is something you've already covered in your future podcasts, I would definitely skip ahead to hear the answer. People post questions on the Facebook page about not seeing results and in the comments, people are asking, "Are you eating enough?"  

What do they mean by this? What happens if you don't eat enough and if you are not counting calories, how are you supposed to know if you are eating enough? Right now, I'm doing an 18:6, opening my window from 1:30 to 7:30. I have a slow-paced job and I get bored. So, I find myself watching the clock waiting for 1:30 not so much to eat, but to have something to do. When I do eat, I don't have a full meal. I try to bring a veggie, fruit and maybe some crackers for my lunch/snack, but then, I struggle to make it home to eat dinner with my family around 6:30. I don't want to increase my lunch or snack because most of the time our dinner is Chick-fil-A drive thru which should start their own weekly delivery box, LOL. 

I thought, maybe, I won't eat during the day and just wait until dinner. But when I tried doing one meal a day a couple of times, I ate everything in sight when I got home. Chocolate, candy chips, everything easy but not healthy. I have two little kids by the way. I want to work my way to eating one meal a day but I guess my body is just not ready right now since I have only been doing IF the correct way for a few weeks now. I'm seeing results and I don't want to backtrack due to eating too much during my window. I appreciate any suggestions you can offer and I look forward to your reply." 

Gin Stephens: There's a lot in there. I wonder what Facebook page she's on? Of course, I haven't been on Facebook since March of 2021. So, wow, it's almost a year of being off of Facebook.  

Melanie Avalon: I think this was a really old question.  

Gin Stephens: Old. It's really old. Okay. That's what I was wondering. Now, I wonder who's asking, "Are you eating enough?" Because I don't think that's the right question. The right question is actually very similar. The right question is not, are you eating enough? It's, are you restricting too much? Which sounds like the exact same question, but I think it isn't. Restricting too much does mean you're not eating enough. But I would think about your eating window and what you're doing within it, and like for example, when Bethany says, "She wants to work to one meal a day," it sounds to me like, she's thinking one meal a day is like 23:1 or something. We've talked about this before, neither you nor I Melanie, eat one meal a day in a one-hour window. We have a longer period of eating. So, we stretch our eating out in one way or another over a longer period of time, then like just an hour.  

So, I feel like if you give yourself a long enough window like 18:6, or 19:5, or 20:4, and you allow yourself to eat intuitively within it, you're not going to fit in two full meals in a six-hour window, probably, two full meals. It's probably going to be like one big hearty meal or multicourse kind of thing over that period of time. I would think you're probably not overly restricting if you're in that period of time and eating to satiety. But it's when you try to really force it into a small period of time, and you do that day after day after day after day, that's when it becomes restrictive. You might be eating "enough in that 23:1 paradigm enough to maintain your weight, but your metabolism will downregulate overtime if you do the same thing day after day after day, and especially, if it's a little bit restrictive for your body. So, when we say not seeing results, like, if you're not eating enough, you're not going to gain weight. I mean, we can agree on that, right, Melanie? You don't gain weight by not eating enough.  

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. People will say that they're eating severely restricted diets and gaining weight and you can't-- I don't know.  

Gin Stephens: I mean that could happen if you have over time slowed your metabolism to the point. Like let's say, you did a 500 calorie a day diet for a year, I'm just you know, hopefully, no one would ever do that. But let's say, you did. You ate 500 calories a day for a year, and now, you eat 700 calories a day, could you start gaining weight? Yes. Because your body has adjusted to 500 calories and your metabolism is slowed. I mean that's an extreme example. So, could you gain weight on extremely low-calorie diet? Yes. But that's only if you've really slowed down and now, you're eating more. Does that make sense?  

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. If they're actually taking in 700 calories. 

Gin Stephens: I know. That's a very severe example. I don't know. Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, the reason I think it's actually really worth discussing is, I think people think about it that way. They think that their metabolism could slow enough to the point where they could gain weight on 700 calories, 

Gin Stephens: I have heard from people who have gained weight on like a thousand. These are not people who don't know how to count calories. People who have a long-term diet history, and they are used to counting calories, they know how to count calories, and they're really have been restricted for a long time, they do have to keep lowering, lowering, lowering, and so that gets to the point where they actually could gain weight on a very small number of calories like a thousand. Because your body is downregulated to the point. So, you can't fix your metabolism if it gets downregulated. So, if you're not eating enough as we just said, if you're keeping it in a very restrictive window day after day after day for a long enough period of time, you can plateau there. 

But that is absolutely not where we are right now with you, Bethany, because you just started a few weeks ago. So, I don't think that's time to downregulate your metabolism. The key is really just listening to your body and making sure you're not over restricting. You kind of would get an idea if you've dieted at all before in the past, think about when you did a restrictive diet, and how much food you were eating, and if you're eating like way less than that now in your eating window then you used to eat over the course of the day, that's a sign you might be over restricting.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I have a few thoughts and it kind of ties into what we were talking about earlier with, you know, how easily do people under eat. I do agree that not eating enough is actually very different from over restricting. It sounds like it'd be the same thing but- 

Gin Stephens: It's really not that, right? I'm glad you get it.  

Melanie Avalon: -it's not, because and I guess we would even need to define what under eating is, but let's say that under eating is not eating the amount of calories. Well, I don't know, because you do have to under eat to lose weight in a way. Well, if that's what under eating is, that's not the same thing as over restricting which is like providing way too much of a restriction to your plan. They are different. What actually something that I was thinking about, it wasn't about eating, it was a study about runners and their exercise levels compared to, if they had amenorrhea from it. So, if they lost their cycle from running and it did not relate to the amount of exercise they were doing. So, like, everybody could exercise the same amount intensely. That was not the factor for if they lost their cycle, it was their body weight. I bring that up because I think the analogy or the comparison to fasting would be that-- so, you could be doing a lot of fasting or "under eating," but if your actual body is not in a baseline state of stress, which I think the equivalent is like in the running study, it's like the people who are underweight, that might be okay for you.  

Gin Stephens: I just had an epiphany, a huge one.  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Go ahead. 

Gin Stephens: It's only overly restrictive if your body perceives it as being overly restrictive in which case, it would downregulate your metabolism. But if you're fast and clean, your body's tapping in your fat stores well, and you're switching up your window day to day, some days you eat more, some days you eat less, your body is not going to perceive it as being overly restrictive, you're well fueled from your fat stores. But the definition of overly restrictive, it's not really something we can say. Like, here's the number that's overly restrictive. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. So, for example in that study, I just talked about with the runners, so, these are intense endurance athletes training. They're doing a lot of running. Again, it's the women who are too low body fat, those are the ones that affected their cycle. So, they didn't have the body weight to support that intense running, and so, the body is perceiving it as too restrictive compared to the women who had the adequate fat store. So, the body didn't perceive that same amount of running as restrictive and I think you could apply that to fasting as well.  

It also brings it to my second point, which is ironically, I was talking about how people following a Whole Foods diet are more likely to "under eat." Ironically that actually might be for some people less "restrictive" because if it's more nutrient dense, like the body is looking for nutrients, and so, you could eat less calories wise, but if it's coming from what your body needs, so, like higher protein really nutrient dense, like our body is looking for nutrients. So, that's going to send a completely different signal to our body than eating the same amount of calories of processed nutrient depleted food. So, I think that's a huge thing. So, like, Bethany's question of like, how much to be eating? For me, the focus isn't even calories, it's the nutrients.  

Gin Stephens: I've said it before our bodies don't count calories, they count nutrients. Everything I've ever seen in the literature reinforces that. I actually talk more about that in Clean(ish). Did you get your copy of Clean(ish), by the way?  

Melanie Avalon: I did.  

Gin Stephens: I thought it got to you. I thought it did, I thought it did. Isn't it so pretty?  

Melanie Avalon: It is beautiful.  

Gin Stephens: I love it, but there's a section in there. I can't remember which chapter it's in, where I talk about a study they did with little kids back in like the 1930s and how they ended up being master nutritionists who designed the perfect diet when the adults just left them alone and let them eat, what they wanted to eat, that they were looking for the nutrients their bodies needed. If you don't feed them the right things like what Bethany says here. She tried doing one meal a day a couple of times. Now, again, it's early on, so, she's probably not well fueled during the fast. So, that's why she's so hungry when she starts eating because her body is like, " I'm not well fueled? I need a lot to eat." But then, she's eating chocolate, candy, and chips, which is also not nourishing your body. And then your body's like, "That wasn't it, that wasn't it, that wasn't it." And you just keep going in a frenzy of over eating. 

Melanie Avalon: The majority of time she says, they're eating Chick-fil-A, which that could be a lot of different things. But I would encourage her to try if she is doing for example, a one meal a day window, which we just discussed is not necessarily a frenzied one-hour of eating experience. It could be starting at 6:30 dinner and much longer or it could be even a snack before dinner, but later, so, like five to nine or something. I would encourage you, Bethany, instead of eating chocolate, candy, chips, because when you're in that hungry state ready to open your window, chocolate, candy, chips is not providing what your body needs at that moment. 

Gin Stephens: It's not giving you any of it. 

Melanie Avalon: Gin just said this. One, you're going to eat all that. It's not giving you what your body is looking for. So, you're going to still be hungry. Two, it's going to be really messing with your insulin levels. So, you're probably just going to crave even more because it's going to give you massive blood sugar swings. So, if you instead open your window with a very nourishing meal, maybe, I don't want disrupt your entire habit because it probably works well to pick up Chick-fil-A. But if you are able to find another dinner alternative that is possibly more nutrient dense, and more Whole Foods based, and opening with that intense nutrition, especially, high protein, try that and see if it's the same experience of frenzy and feeling like you're overeating and feeling like you can't get full.  

It'll probably be a very different experience. Maybe, you can go to Costco and get rotisserie chickens or something like that. I think it'll be quite possibly a different experience or oh, Green Chef, [giggles] is one of our sponsors today. Not planned. I'm so excited. I love it when this happens. Something like Green Chef would be probably amazing for you. So, listen to the ad that we run for them in today's episode. We have an amazing offer from them.  

Gin Stephens: The offers just get better and better. That's a really good offer.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: I want to pop in and say real quick that, Bethany did say that, when she opens at 1:30, she's usually having a veggie and fruit. When she opens earlier, she's opening with veggies and fruit, more nutrients. Then, if she waits later, she's choosing those quick chocolate, candy, chips kind of a thing or the drive thru. So, it really is about I think being prepared like you said. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. It's so interesting because people think that it's a whole lot more of a hassle or time to "eat healthy" or to change to that sort of dietary lifestyle. But it does take some time in the beginning because you got to sit down, and like, Gin said, "You got to be prepared." So, you have to figure out what the plan is that's going to make this materialize. But once you find the plan that works for you and your family, it doesn't have to be hard. 

Gin Stephens: Right. You know the saying, "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail," right? You've heard that saying before. 

Melanie Avalon: I like that.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. If you fail to plan, just plan to fail. I mean, you know, not all the time. Obviously, but it's true with me with food. If I let myself get really hungry and there's nothing nutritious to eat, I'm going to grab the quick stuff, too. Because I'm hungry now. I'm just grabbing it. I've done that before. But would you have something in the fridge like my Green Chef meal? I can go to that, I don't have to drive thru somewhere because I'm like, "We're having this and it's quick. I don't have to think about it." I love Green Chef. I, literally, do love Green Chef. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: And I just checked our offer right now for Green Chef. So, again, all the details will be in this spot, which will probably air later in the episode. So, greenchef.com/ifpodcast130 and the code IFPODCAST130 will get you $130 off, which is awesome. They just provide access to really nutritious meals and you can choose if you want keto, or paleo, or vegan, or vegetarian, or gluten free, and they use organic ingredients. 

Gin Stephens: Or, balanced living, which is what I do. [laughs] I use the balanced living plan which isn't any of those. I always say it when I'm talking about it because that's the plan that I choose is balanced living. I think they're trying to really just promote. People like me that are balanced living, we're just going to pick foods we like. If you're a keto, for example, you want to know they have keto.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: I already know what I'm going to be eating when this podcast comes out. The week this podcast comes out, this is what I'm having from Green Chef, cheesy Italian meatloaves. It's got broccoli, and it's got bread, crispy chicken with honey drizzle, it's got mashed potatoes, and like this vegetable slaw, and butternut squash chili. I just looked on my app. Those are the things I'm getting.  

Melanie Avalon: What I really like about them as well is, you can really make it your own. So, as you guys know, I eat more simply. So, I just got my box and it had like a barramundi, had salmon, and a chicken dish, and the ingredients are all separate. So, you can choose if there's something that doesn't work for you, you know not to include that in the dish. So, I was able to really make it my own, which was super cool.  

Gin Stephens: One thing about Green Chef that's so great is a lot of the stuff is like pre-prepped. They had something I made recently and it had already. They'd already diced up like the-- I can't remember what was it, like sweet potato or something. It was already diced up. Dicing up a sweet potato is not always easy. But it was already diced up but I just had to dump it in. But I mean, it was real sweet potato. But there it was, already diced and just the exact amount that I needed.  

Melanie Avalon: I think, Bethany, definitely report back. Again, I do think this was-- 

Gin Stephens: A really old question. [laughs] Yeah, because if it talks about Facebook, because that was March. That's been a long time. Sorry, it took so long, Bethany. You've probably figured it all out by now.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. [laughs] So, let us know, the other reason I was bringing up Cynthia Thurlow was, she introduced me to a woman who has a company called SoWell. Her name is Alexandra Sowa. I wonder if she decided to call it SoWell sort of related to her last name or if that was not related at all. What's super cool is, so, she's actually an MD, and I had a phone call with her recently and I'm super excited. I'm going to bring her on my show to talk all about her company. But what I love is Gin and I are always talking on this show about the super importance of testing your insulin levels, and how none of the companies we currently work with like at home ordering, provide insulin, and doctors just don't readily prescribe an insulin, a fasting insulin test. So, she's all about that. Her kits are at-home test, kind of like with ZOE or with Everlywell, or LetsGetChecked. They syndicate to your house and you just do a finger prick yourself, and I'll make a redirect. So, you can go to ifpodcast.com/sowell, S-O-W-E-L-L.  

And so, what's really cool is they have two kits right now, but they're going to be launching a new one soon that I can tell you about, but their weight biology kit, so, I'm literally holding the kit in my hand because she just sent it to me, which was super kind. The weight biology kit, it tests your HbA1c, your glucose, your insulin, cholesterol panel, so, like HDL, triglycerides, LDL, your TSH for your thyroid, your vitamin B12, it factors in your BMI and then, it calculates your HOMA IR, which is what we've been talking or I think I've been talking about it a lot. And that's basically a ratio of your insulin and your glucose, and that can actually give you a really good picture of your metabolic health. So, that's super exciting and then they also have their PCOS Biology kit, that's coming soon and that is going to be specifically to help people who have PCOS, which is super cool.  

And then, the third one that they're coming out with, I think she said in the New Year, I'm so excited about this, it's going to be just a HOMA-IR test. So, that glucose-insulin measure, and I think they're going to have it like on a subscription type basis thing. I'm not really sure, but she made it sound like you get it monthly. So, you can keep track of your HOMA-IR. So, very, very exciting. It's such a great resource, and I can't wait. I talked to her on the phone like I said, and she was super great, and she just really wants to help women, have access to this testing. I mean, literally, that's testing the things that I think we both believe that you need to be testing. So, we have a code. I'm not sure what the discount is exactly, but if you go to, ifpodcast.com/sowell, that's S-O-W-E-L-L, and you can use the coupon code, IFPODCAST, and that will get you a discount. I will clarify with her what that discount is and put it in the show notes, which by the way, the show notes are at ifpodcast.com/episode237. So, yay for great resources for listeners.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that sounds great.  

Melanie Avalon: So, I'm excited to have her on the show and really, you know, dive deep into what she's doing. So, all right, shall we go on to our next question?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. I'm going to tell you also, this one must be really old, because I know this girl, this lady, I should say. [laughs] She is 53 now. She's in my group. She's on my community. Anybody, if you go to ginstephens.com/community, you can find my community but Rotunda, and I'm not really sure how she pronounces her name, because you know, we're all typing stuff. We're not saying things or talking to each other out loud. So, I'm not sure how she pronounces her name. And in my head, I've always said Rotunda. How would you say it, Melanie?  

Melanie Avalon: I would say, Rotunda. 

Gin Stephens: Rotunda. Well, she is in my community and she posted 25 days ago, a follow up that she is now 53. So, when she typed this email, she was 51. So, we know it's been a while since she put it. So, I know, this question has already been answered in her life. I'm certain she's not doing this anymore. But she says-- 

Melanie Avalon: Can I jump in really quick?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: I want to clarify something for listeners about that. I'm super glad you mentioned that. If listeners are curious, so, we have every question ever submitted to our show in this massive document. It's very long. I'm telling you this, listeners, because I want you to know, if you submitted a question a long time ago and you haven't heard on the show yet, go ahead and send it again. Because the way I've been prepping the show now is as new questions come in, when I really liked them, I just put them into our prep document to prep, and then, it's only when new questions don't fill up an episode that like when I think we don't have no questions, then, I go back to this massive long document and I pull out. I don't even look at dates. I just pull out something. So, that's what happened with this for example. I say that, so that feel free to submit again because you're more likely to get on the show if you submit now.  

Gin Stephens: We changed how we did it.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I used to like every time go through the whole document and pick ones out but that's too much. So, if you want your question on the show, submit now, even if you submit it before. Other tips to get your question featured as many details as possible without making it long. It's the whole writing thing of like, saying the maximum amount in the shortest amount possible. That's a golden way. So, as many details but not like a novel.  

Gin Stephens: I've been doing IF for six weeks, why have I not lost weight? That is not enough information. We do not know.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, we love specific, we love details, we love personality, but also, if it's like 10 pages.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. But we don't have time to read 10 pages. All right, so, here's her question from two years ago. [laughs] She said, "Hi," and then, maybe, I'll read what she just wrote 25 days ago that you would like to hear.  

Melanie Avalon: Does it relate to this?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. It's really good. I love it. She answers her own question. It really kind of-- Okay. So, she said, "Hi, I just learned about you and your podcast today." This was two years ago. So, she said, "I listened to Episode 2. I couldn't find Episode 1. Today, during my lunch break, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I've purchased Delay, Don’t Deny and I can't wait to start reading it. I've been experimenting with IF for about a year now off and on. I like how I feel while IF-ing. I've been practicing the 16:8 approach. I think I may need to up my game to a five-hour eating window as I'm a 51-year-old perimenopausal woman. As of late, I've been following Jorge Cruise's method, which includes tricking my fast with healthy fats by drinking bulletproof coffee in the morning. Jorge recommends a macronutrient balance of 20% protein, 30% carbs, and 50% fats. Considering your success, I was wondering, do you two pay attention to the macronutrients you consume specifically, complex and simple carbs."  

So, fast forward to now, two years later, I'm not going to read the whole thing. She said, "Gin, you have no idea how much you have changed my life prior to stumbling upon your podcast just over two years ago." She said, "My life has changed drastically. I used to be a serial diet or starting a new diet every Monday." Again, she was looking for Jorge Cruz, like what he said to do. That's her serial dieting. I did that, too. Well, how does he say to do it, I'm going to do it like that. But listen to what she says this gives me goosebumps. She's like, "Starting a new diet every Monday. They never worked. I cannot tell you how many diet books I bought. Of the 53 years of my life, I'm confident, I've spent a good 34 years dieting unsuccessfully, not enjoying my life. Since I started IF-ing, the dieting chains have been broken and I've slowly lost 53 pounds over the past two years. I don't care that it has taken me two years. The weight comes off and it stays off, best of all, I'm not on a diet, I'm free. Thank you so much. I'm forever in your debts."  

I'm pretty sure, Rotunda has figured out that no, we do not tell you what macronutrient balance you need to eat. We are all going to be different with that. And also, even if I knew what my perfect balance was, I still don't want to calculate it. I just want to eat delicious food, trusting my body to let me know when I need more protein or if I haven't had enough if my food isn't delicious, it probably needs more fat, and I know, also, she knows that you absolutely can't "trick a fast" with the bulletproof coffee. We're both definitely thumbs down on that being fasting because that's a lot of energy you are consuming. So, I know, she's not drinking that anymore.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's super exciting.  

Gin Stephens: Isn't it exciting? I'm so glad. I was able to pull it up and that she had such a great-- I mean, now, we know. Two years later, she's done great and she's no longer worrying about the bulletproof coffee or counting her macros, she's just lost 53 pounds since she initially wrote in two years ago. 

Melanie Avalon: I'll provide an answer separate from her experience just talking about how I perceive macronutrients, like, whether or not I focus on macronutrients. Two things I really like about macronutrient-based approaches and I don't count macronutrients like the way people count calories or the way people count macronutrients. I don't do any of that. However, I think if people are taking a macronutrient approach, it can work for a lot of people, especially, if they're focusing on protein. So, especially, for people who and again I'm going to do this a little bit separate from Rotunda's question and just talk about the concept in general. Especially, some people who are trying to lose weight and not feeling full or not losing weight, like, focusing on protein as the center of your meal can be very, very effective for a lot of people for weight loss, and for satiety, and for health. I think what's funny is I've always been that way intuitively, like I just crave protein, and I eat high protein. But some people, I don't think it's intuitive at all and it doesn't necessarily occur to them. 

For some people, they might benefit from making a conscious decision to focus on protein as the center of their meal, and that can be really, really effective. I've done some episodes on it. So, if you check out my conversation with Ted Naiman and William Shewfelt, that's at melanieavalon.com/protein. We talked about it, you can check out my first episode with Robb Wolf, I believe at melanieavalon.com/sacredcow. We talk a lot about protein. I will be having an episode coming up with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon in the future. That's going to be about protein. So, be on the lookout for that. I also recently recorded with Maria Emmerich, but that's not out yet, but that will be good as well. That's part one is that, just focusing on protein, other macronutrients aside, focusing on protein could be a great route to go and like 20% protein would be much less. That's a much lower protein proportion than what people could be focusing on I think.  

Second macronutrient thing is that, especially, if weight loss is your goal, or metabolic health is your goal, having a macronutrient paradigm can work for a lot of people. So, not counting anything per se and I feel like a broken record stuck about this all the time. But doing either low carb or low fat can work for a lot of people. Different things might work for different people at different times. But I do think there is a benefit to focusing on macronutrients. The reason I started focusing on macronutrients actually is, I basically had an epiphany I've talked about this a lot on different shows. But I had this epiphany where I was like, "Hmm, I can look at macronutrients, and I can take in certain macronutrients, and I can pretty much guarantee that I won't gain weight." And if anything, I'll lose weight. I'm not prescribing what I did when I had this epiphany because I don't think it's that healthy. I basically realized that if I just ate protein for example and drink wine that it was pretty much unlikely I would gain weight, and if anything, I would lose weight, and especially, if combined with fasting and that worked really, really well.  

But that was just the realization that I had that you can focus on macronutrients. You don't have to count like a single calorie and if there's a hack, I think that's more of a hack than this whole drinking fat while fasting. I think macronutrients are in a way sort of like a "hack." It kind of reminds me of something, I think Peter Attia once said, he was talking about dieting, but he was saying basically, you really just have to monitor one thing. You can count calories or you can count macronutrients. He was saying you can restrict one of three things and likely see benefits. Calories, micronutrients, or time, which for a lot of people restricting one of those can possibly have an effect.  

Gin Stephens: Well, it did for me. I only restricted by time when I was losing my 75, 80 pounds, I just did time. I wouldn't count in macronutrients or calories. I just did it with time. 

Melanie Avalon: And then on the flip side, I know, we're not fans of calorie counting. But if you really, really did severely, restrictedly count your calories, that can work. It's not sustainable, and you'll probably gain it back, and it probably won't be fun, but it can work. And then, same with macronutrients. If you're really, really intense, monitoring your macronutrients even without the fasting or the calories that can probably work, too. I think the magic is finding the thing to focus on that works for you, and just really making it work for you. So, a lot of our listeners, for us, it's fasting. I like to add in the macronutrients as well for the health benefits of focusing on the macronutrients that fuel my body and then also, I really don't have to ever worry about overdoing it in my eating window because of focusing on macronutrients. So, that was a long answer but those are my thoughts.  

Today's episode is sponsored by Green Chef. I'm sure you know by now, how much I love them. And we've used them since around 2017. Green Chef is America's number one meal kit for eating well with dinners that work for you, not the other way around. Green Chef's options for every lifestyle include keto, and paleo, vegan, vegetarian, fast and fit, Mediterranean, and gluten free. No matter what your eating preferences, Green Chef has flavorful good for you recipes that are sure to satisfy, and I can attest to that as can Chad. I choose the balanced living plan because that's a great way to describe how I like to eat and live. This week we're having creamy chicken and potato soup with corn, roasted red peppers, sharp cheddar cheese and chives. Sriracha-tamari beef bowls with jasmine rice, broccoli, cabbage, and carrots, peanuts, and sesame seeds, and roasted chickpea and carrot bowls with kale, rice with dates and feta, and creamy turmeric spiced vinaigrette. 

But besides the fact that all meals are window worthy, what do I love the most, Green Chef saves me time by taking care of meal planning, grocery shopping, and most of the prep for me week after week. So, I have time to do other things. I also love that Green Chef's pre-portioned ingredients mean, I've reduced food waste by at least 25% compared to grocery shopping. Maybe, even more than that. I was not a good grocery shopper. Anybody relate to that? Go to greenchef.com/ifpodcast10 and use the code IFPODCAST10 to get 10 free meals including free shipping. That's greenchef.com/ifpodcast10 and don't forget to use the promo code IFPODCAST10 to get 10 free meals including free shipping. And now, back to the show.  

Melanie Avalon: All right, are we ready for the next one?  

Gin Stephens: Sure.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so, we have one more question from Katie. The subject is: "IF, autophagy, and scar tissue." And Katie says, "Hi, Melanie and Gin, I, so, appreciate your podcasts and all the work, research, and love that you put into each episode. I've been doing one meal a day with clean fasting for a little over a month and I love it. I was doing about 16:8 for a couple of years without knowing it was a thing. I just knew I had weight loss results if I didn't eat after about four. I have been in the normal weight range for a couple of years after losing 90 pounds, but a recent bout with breast cancer led me to IF for the health and autophagy benefits.  

My question is whether, you have ever heard about IF-induced autophagy having any effects on scar tissue. The reason I ask is that, I just noticed today that my scars are remarkably different. I am 58 and I've had a big ropey keloid scar on my side since kidney surgery as a teenager. Well, it has suddenly reduced to just a thin white scar. And my breast cancer surgery scar has almost completely disappeared. The surgeon even remarked a few days ago that it was pretty amazing. I really attribute it in great part to IF and I was curious if you have ever heard of this effect, presumably due to ramped up autophagy, thanks for all you do," Katie. And before we answer it, just sending you love and healing Katie with your breast cancer. I'm sorry. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, absolutely.  

Melanie Avalon: So, I did a lot of research on this one but Gin, do you have thoughts? 

Gin Stephens: Okay. You have a lot of research. So, I'm just going to give you very quick short thoughts. The answer is yes. If you go back to, gosh, I can't remember what episode it was Donna Dube on Intermittent Fasting Stories. If you just type into any Google, Intermittent Fasting Stories, Donna Dube, D-U-B-E, is how you spell her last name, the episode will pop up. But if you listen to her episode, she's older than me, she's older than you, Katie. She talks about, she had a C-section scar that was thick and ropy. I mean, for decades, like 30 years after her kids-- 30 years, she had this thick ropy C-section scar. After doing IF, it was exactly like you said, a thin white scar. So, I can't think of another single cause for a scar to disappear other than autophagy knowing that we know that autophagy breaks down junky proteins that we don't need anymore, and what else would a scar be except, tissue we don't need anymore. So, to me, that's the most plausible explanation.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, this was super interesting to me. I went down the rabbit hole. I was not able to find many, actually, really any studies on autophagy and scars that were there that had been there, and then, having them go away through autophagy later on. 

Gin Stephens: Like, knowing how they fund scientific studies and why they do them, I can't imagine anyone would actually do one. Because it would take such a long time and it's a very specific thing, right? It doesn't sound like something they would study.  

Melanie Avalon: But what's really interesting, I did find studies on fasting before or after wounds and how it affected the healing process, which relates to the scars. I also learned all about scars. I learned, this had never really occurred to me, Gin, but do you know the difference between scars from a surgery and then like fibrosis?  

Gin Stephens: No.  

Melanie Avalon: So, scars from surgery is like it's done. So, you had a wound, the surgery, or whatever you had done, then, a scar forms, like the process is done and the scars purpose is to-- it's the healing process and then, eventually, the scar should go away over time. So, fibrosis, and it never really occurred to me what fibrosis was. Fibrosis is actually when the body is perpetually-- It's like, it's messed up. Like it's perpetually creating new scar tissue. The scar tissue forming process should be done and it just keeps creating scar tissue. So, I thought that was really, really fascinating and was interesting, and the reason it's important to talk about this is autophagy has different effects on those two different things.  

So, I found a study called fasting before or after wound injury accelerates wound healing through the activation of pro-angiogenic SMOC1 and SCG2. So, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But it was basically looking at fasting effect on wound closure, scar formation, collagen deposition, skin cell proliferation, and other things. I believe this was in rats, but they did find that fasting patterns, well, they looked at before and after wound injury, that it helped with the wound healing process. So, it was definitely better for like the scar formation and all of that. So, that was promising. They didn't really talk about autophagy, specifically. When I went down the autophagy rabbit hole, that's how I ended up at this fibroid world because all of the studies on autophagy and scarring was mostly related to fibrosis and fibroids. The interesting thing was it is hotly debated.  

Gin Stephens: As to whether it helps or not?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes.  

Gin Stephens: [laughs] I'm just laughing so hard because I think the two people who have now told us about and I've heard from more than two that their scars went away but they'd not debate it.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, this is different.  

Gin Stephens: I know it is. But still, I'm just laughing.  

Melanie Avalon: So, this is not the scars.  

Gin Stephens: I know. I get it. But I'm just laughing in general because they would hotly debate that this would happen for our people too, right? Anyway, go ahead. I'm sorry. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, I'll further clarify so I don't confuse listeners. So, basically, the reason it's debated is the role of autophagy and fibrosis. So, in the body perpetually creating new scars, some studies show that inhibiting autophagy actually increases fibrosis. So, some of the studies find that autophagy actually plays a role in a way feeding that process. Listeners, I tried to read all of the studies more but they were really, really long. But the takeaway that I think I was taking from them was that, especially, since like I just said that the fibrosis process is the body unnecessarily creating scar tissue when it really, actually shouldn't be. Autophagy can actually be used to help that because it can be feeding that process. On flipside some of the studies do show that it helps reduce fibrosis. So, it's very confusing.  

All of that to say, that's different than a scar on your skin at which I could not find studies about, but I think anecdotally, we do see that, like Gin just gave the example, I've noticed it in myself, a lot of people have reported it, and it makes sense in theory. I think the important thing though to focus on, especially for her question is, even if autophagy is not the main mechanism, we see it happening. So, I don't think you even need to necessarily know exactly why. But I think we can just anecdotally say that we see it with fasting and scar tissue. I mean she even saw it. And also, last thing, especially since she was fasting before, the study I talked about that was looking at fasting before or after wound healing, I found that both helped. I found that before was more effective. So, especially, since she was fasting before these procedures, it might have been even more so that that pre-fasting prior to the procedures that created a better healing process in the first place that more allowed for a scar that faded. And then, on top of that, after it can help with the wound healing.  

Gin Stephens: I just think the fact that her scar faded from when she was a teenager is just incredible. If you wrote that in a book when you do intermittent fasting, your old scars that you've had for 30 years are going to go away. That sounds fake. [laughs] You'd never make that claim, but it's happening to people. Anyway, I love it.  

Melanie Avalon: Quick plug as well. I become more interested in the fibroids as well because I've been researching it in relation to my serrapeptase product because there's a lot of studies on serrapeptase and fibroids, and being a fi-bri-no-lytic. Wait, fibrinolytic means it's breaking down fibroid, right?  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I don't know. It sounds like it to me. 

Melanie Avalon: I've been researching that process a lot more and when serrapeptase being an enzyme that breaks down proteins, it makes sense that when it goes into your bloodstream, it can actually help break down fibroids, and I've noticed-- I'm really excited because I wasn't sure if it was going to be affecting this mole that I have on my nose, but I think it is actually making it go down which is very, very impressive. But I think that might be another-- If you're looking to potentially address scars and such therapeutic enzymes like serrapeptase, it might be something as well to try and to synergize your fast and that whole process. So, mine is at avalonx.us if you'd like to get it. All right. Anything else about scars? Have you had any scars go away, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: You know, I've often examined my scars trying to see and I don't really know. I didn't have like a ton of scars. But there is one of my hands that I've had since I was a little girl and I do think it's not as raised as it used to be. I cut my hand when I was at Girl Scout camp. [laughs] I was slicing an orange and I had a new Little Girl Scout knife, you know, and back then they just gave knives to children, and here's your knife. I'm like [noise] slice in my hand. Maybe, that's why they don't give knives to children anymore.  

Melanie Avalon: Was it really traumatic?  

Gin Stephens: I know. What you know, know, it wasn't traumatic. I just always had that scar from it. That was all and it wasn't that it was traumatic. It's just that I knew-- 

Melanie Avalon: It just sounds traumatic. You still have the scar this long.  

Gin Stephens: I mean, I cut my hand pretty badly. I think it used to be thicker than it is now. Now, you can see it but it's not as thick. So, I don't know. I think it's pretty obvious if it's like a ropy scar from kidney surgery or from a C-section, it would be more apparent. Whereas for me, I just have little scars here and there. 

Melanie Avalon: The other reason like speaking of the enzymes and this mole that I have on my nose, what's interesting about it is, its skin color. You can't even really see it. I see it more than anybody. People probably don't even notice it. The only time it super went away like it went away was when I was in my high pineapple phase. Like when I was eating a ton of pineapple which contains bromelain which is a protein digesting enzyme, it went away. 

Gin Stephens: Well, that's interesting.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. When I stopped eating the pineapple and switched to-- I went low carb and then I went high carb again, but I had been eating blueberries. I wanted to go back onto a pineapple diet and see if it really does go away again. There's really a benefit to protein digesting potential of things be it autophagy, be it enzymes like serrapeptase, be it bromelain. Those really can work magic in your body for breaking down these old dysfunctional, unused proteins and scars.  

Gin Stephens: We just have to give our body time to do it. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.  

Gin Stephens: That's the thing. If you're eating all the time, like I did yesterday, we're recording the day after Christmas, I sure enjoyed my window. It was long, long, long. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: What did you have?  

Gin Stephens: Oh, it was such a good day, though. We always start with-- I had this cheese and sausage balls recipe. It's like-- 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my mom used to make those.  

Gin Stephens: We have them every Christmas. My grandmother made them. It's cheddar cheese, spicy sausage, and like a Bisquick kind of thing. Although, this year, we didn't use Bisquick brand because I didn't have any, so, we got a different brand, and it actually was better. So, you just mix that together, and bake it, and they're so good. So, I started to eat. They came out of the oven at 9 AM and they're never as good as the moment they come out of the oven. Like, they're going to be okay later or they're still going to be delicious but never saw. I'm like, "All right, window open." So, I started at 9 AM and then, we went over to my dad's for-- we have a brunch every year. So, we had the brunch, came home and probably I wasn't hungry again.  

You know, I did a little nibbling here and there while we were at the brunch. Like, "Ooh, I'm going to have this olive and ooh, I want to have this." They had these pickled green beans that were spicy and I loved them. So, I kept eating those green beans. [laughs] Eating early in the morning, then, I was so tired. So, like mid-afternoon it was like 2 o'clock, she's like, "Do you want me to make some more coffee?" My stepmother and I'm like, "Yes." So, because my window was open, I had like more of a hot milkshake kind of coffee. It was like dessert. So, then, I was even more tired [laughs] because of the sugar. And then, I came home and I wasn't hungry at all till probably, I don't know, I was hungry again and had dinner maybe at like 6 PM. Leftovers from Christmas Eve dinner. It wasn't a lot but then, I closed my window. I did have some champagne. Chad and I played cards.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, it was really like 9 AM to maybe 7 PM by the time I finished with the champagne.  

Melanie Avalon: Dry Farm Wines?  

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. It was Dry Farm. It absolutely was.  

Melanie Avalon: I haven't had their champagne. They send it to me sometimes. I haven't had it though. Is it good? I re-gift it because I'm not a champagne person.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I love it. Yeah, but my fridge is fully stocked right now. [laughs] So that was good. But even so, it felt like I was eating for like forever, but 9 AM to 7 PM is 10 hours and really that's not long. You know, like, people are like eight-hour window is fasting. So, anyway, a 10-hour window, it felt like the longest window ever. But today, I'm still fasting. So, right now, I'm at let me think about it. All the time we're recording, if I've been fasting since seven, I'm at 20 right now.  

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting how you know, if you have a more indulgent day, just how effective fasting can-- It really feels like it's just cleaning out. It can really, really quickly just reset you. I'm hesitant saying that because I think people can be like that you're trying to undo damage by over restricting and it's not that at all. It's just that when you have this fasted period, I'm just always really impressed by how fasting can make me feel.  

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah, I think about ADF. Honestly, ADF is having an up day like yesterday, Christmas Day was like an up day, and then, today, I'm not having a down day today but I could. But that's the whole plan. Big eating day, small eating day, big eating day, small eating day, and you alternate it. It's not like you're binging and then making up for it, and binging and making up for it. I didn't binge yesterday. There was no binging. I ate longer, and more, and differently than I normally eat. Those green beans were probably one of the few vegetables I had. [laughs] Really, now that I think about it. Not a lot of vegetables on the plate. I did have pumpkin pie. Does that count? It's pumpkin. We're going to count it. 

Melanie Avalon: Did you know that-- That's something else I learned. Oh, did you get your Farmer Lee Jones book?  

Gin Stephens: I did. Oh, my God. That's a beautiful book.  

Melanie Avalon: Isn't it amazing?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. It's really an encyclopedia of vegetables. That's how I described it. I have a friend who lives in UK. Shoutout to Lucy. She teaches cooking and she's a chef herself, and she always has the most beautiful food. She's in my Delay, Don’t Deny Community and was a Facebook moderator before that. So, I've known her for a while. But I was like, "Lucy, you need this book." She's like, "Well, I'm on cookbook restriction. I'm not allowed to get any more cookbooks." I'm like, "Well, this is not a cookbook, even though, it has recipes. I would not call it a cookbook." So, she asked for it for Christmas and I'm pretty sure she got it.  

Melanie Avalon: The reason I'm thinking about it, I think he says that the majority of canned pumpkin, I think it's not pumpkin. I think that's yam, usually.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't care. I had yam. Whatever I had, it was orange and delicious. I have the best pumpkin pie recipe that I just found this here. It is so good. You know, how most pumpkin pie has a regular crust?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. 

Gin Stephens: I'm now making it. I thought, wouldn't it be good with Graham cracker crust? So, I googled it to see if anyone had had that idea and I found, you know, Bobby Flay?  

Melanie Avalon: Wait, wait, wait, wait. I thought they are always Graham cracker crust. I thought I was going to say. 

Gin Stephens: No, uh-huh, pumpkin pie is usually regular crust.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's funny. You said that and I was like, "Yeah, Graham cracker crust."  

Gin Stephens: Maybe, that's the way your parents, your mom makes it. I don't know. But I've never seen it that way and our family, it's always just a regular crust. So, it's like, blah, you know? So, I googled that and it was a throwdown. He had that throwdown where he would have people competing to make the best pumpkin pie and this was, I think, the winning recipe. And of course, I did tweak the spices that I used a little bit. I did a little bit differently but homemade Graham cracker crust, I will never buy a Graham cracker crust again. I'd never made one from scratch. I mean, you're still starting with Graham crackers, right? But it's still, it's Clean(ish) because even though, they're processed Graham crackers, you're using real butter. Hence, it's got a lot fewer additives like a premade Graham cracker crust would. And it was so much more delicious. And then, the pumpkin filling, it's like real pumpkin, and heavy cream, and pumpkin pie spice, and oh, my God, it was good. Egg.  

Melanie Avalon: It's really funny. I know, we're like way over time but one more thing. One of the brands sent me a, it was like a credit for this, what was it called? Treat box or something. And you can go online and pick out what you want, and it's a lot of like normal stuff that people would get in treat boxes, like treats, and cheese, and fun little gadgets. But they had a meat and seafood section. I see why they do it, why the company does it because you can get more than the credit they gave you. So, you can make the box even bigger. So, I got for the box. I got wild caught salmon, and scallops, and cod, and it ended up costing me so much money because I was like, "Oh, I want all of this." 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's how they get you.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. But it was pretty funny. That's a good Christmas gift. So, all right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike, and then, again, the show notes, which we'll have links to everything we talked about will be at ifpodcast.com/episode247. Alrighty. Well, anything from you, Gin, before we go?  

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it. I did just yawn because after having such a big eating day, I'm not quite as glycogen depleted as I usually am at hour 20.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I hear yeah. I'm going to tell you right before hang up one of the presents that I got that you will think is funny.  

Gin Stephens: Ooh, I can't wait to hear it.  

Melanie Avalon: But listeners can't know.  

Gin Stephens: Oh. [laughs] Dun, dun, dun. All right.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.  

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 245 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you wan to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.  

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Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 246 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and here with, Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm so excited. I have something I want to say that I'm excited about. But first, I want to tell you, thank you, for my Christmas present. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I was going to ask you if it came. 

Gin Stephens: It did, it did and I love it. It's a bread warmer, everybody. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you have one? 

Gin Stephens: No, I don't have one. I always just throw it, you know, bread in a basket and put like a dish towel over it and wrap it up. But this is official. It's like a stone that you warm in the oven, and it's in a little basket, and you put the bread on top of it. It's really going to keep the bread warm. So, that's very exciting. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. I saw it in a catalog and I was like, "Gin Stephens needs this."  

Gin Stephens: And we're recording this the week before Christmas. Has yours come, yet?  

Melanie Avalon: No. I don't think so. Unless, it's there today. Okay, I was sad because I ordered it and they had a version that had a top, but it was completely out of stock and wasn't going to come in until January. But I think, I don't know if I can order the top separately. 

Melanie Avalon: I don't need the top because I'm probably going to still cover it with a dish towel or a cloth napkin. Let's say, it's Thanksgiving, and I have a bunch of people over, and I have all the rolls. I'll put them in there and they'll probably be bigger than the container like domed up a little bit, and then, I'll put something on top to hold it in there. So, a top would just like limit the amount of bread I could put in. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. That makes sense because I know nothing about bread baking and I was like, "Why do they even make a version without a top?" But okay, that makes sense. 

Gin Stephens: Well, but I usually have more bread [laughs] than that if I have a lot of people. So, that's perfect.  

Melanie Avalon: Yay. I didn't even know this was a thing until I saw it. I was like, "That's cool." 

Gin Stephens: Well, I never would have thought to get one but I love it. But I have another thing to share because the date that this episode is coming out is the day before Clean(ish) arrives. I'm so excited. I actually just got two big boxes of books from my publisher and the boxes said Gin Stephens, Clean(ish) on the outside. It's like the book. That's what they're sending to bookstores or wherever they're sending. It was like the official book box with what was inside. 

Melanie Avalon: I would be more excited by the box. 

Gin Stephens: I was so excited by the box. You know, it was like, "Do not put on sale till January 4th." It's like, "We're not kidding." I'm really excited. But it is so great to hold the final copy in my hand because the copy I had before was the early reader copy that it's not formatted properly, and it has the typos still in it. So, to have the real one, it looks so beautiful and I just am loving it. So, if you haven't pre-ordered everybody, this is honestly your last day to pre-order. And if you pre-order the electronic or the audible version, you'll have it tomorrow. But if you order the paperback, you'll have it soon as soon as Amazon can get to you, but pre-orders really help a lot.  

Melanie Avalon: Did you see my story? I pre-ordered on Audible.  

Gin Stephens: I actually did see that. Oh, this past week I got my list of what my pickups that I had to do from recording the audiobook and there were only six lines I needed to read again. It was like, I was amazed. Yes. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: What was it last time? Was it more?  

Gin Stephens: I can't even remember. The producer was like, "This is amazingly short of a list." I credit that to the wonderful team that was with me while I was doing it. They caught most of it while I was live with them. We actually did it from home that they were on with me. I had an engineer and also director on with me. So, if I made a mistake, they caught it. So, it's not really that I was such an excellent reader, I'm not taking the credit. It was that I had a great team and they were fabulous.  

Melanie Avalon: That's very exciting. Can they send me a copy, so, I can take pictures and promote? 

Gin Stephens: Absolutely, I will make that happen.  

Melanie Avalon: So, I can promote it before it comes out.  

Gin Stephens: Yep, we'll see if how fast we can get there. But yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Actually, maybe not.  

Gin Stephens: Well, we have a while because we're a couple of weeks out here in the real world, even though, listeners are one day away. But here's something else is exciting. Can I just share one more thing?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. 

Gin Stephens: Sometimes, I like to make sure that Delay, Don't Deny isn't counterfeit. For example, being sold by a third-party person. So, I'll look at Amazon just to see how things are going, and I want to see how Clean(ish) is doing. The pre-order for is like new releases, how's it ranking? Fast. Feast. Repeat., though has been number one in weight loss on Amazon for weeks. Like, number one on weight loss. 

Melanie Avalon: That's insane.  

Gin Stephens: I'm just sitting here in my house in Augusta, Georgia like, "I've got the number one weight loss book on Amazon week after week." It's like shocking. It's done pretty well all along but you know, The Obesity Code has been number one all the time. Usually, The Obesity Code. Sometimes, Fast. Feast. Repeat., will be there. But it has been solid number one at least a month, I think. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you think that's because of the growing interest in intermittent fasting? 

Gin Stephens: Well, I do and I feel like, it's the go-to book that people are reading. For example, in the Delay, Don't Deny Community, if anyone's interested in finding that go to ginstephens.com/community. There's a link there. But it's our paid membership community that I'm just loving because I can spend a lot of time there. It's a great supportive place. But one of the members said, she found Fast. Feast. Repeat., because she went to her doctor's office for a routine visit and was talking about her health in general. He had a photocopy of the front of Fast. Feast. Repeat. taped to the-- You know, how to have cabinets in the exam room?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: It was taped to the cabinet. So, she sent me a snapshot. She showed it to me. So, her doctor is got my book taped up in his exam room like a picture of it, like read that. That blows my mind. I'm like, "What? How is this even possible?" It's because I'm a teacher. That's the only thing. I'm not like a health guru or a big expert, but apparently teachers can write a good book. I just taught through it. That was it. So, anyway life is good. It feels a little bit like surreal. I don't know who that Gin Stephens is, but she's done a good job. [laughs] Oh, yeah, that's me.  

Melanie Avalon: Every now and then, I'm like, "What if I wake up?" And this was actually all a dream. I have that moment sometimes. 

Gin Stephens: You know, like, right this minute, it's the five-year anniversary of Delay, Don’t Deny. Not today. But five years ago, I was putting the finishing touches on it today as of this recording day. I was finishing it. I was waking up in the middle of the night like editing in my sleep, still finishing it. It came out December 31st of 2016. So, we're five years into Delay, Don’t Deny and it changed my entire life having that book. 

Melanie Avalon: That's a shocking amount of-- Like, I don't know, the years go by so fast, but that is so much. I don't want to say progress, but so much. I mean so much has happened just in those five years. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. You know, 2017 was the year we met and started doing the podcast. 2018 is when What When Wine came out, right?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: 2018 is when I started Intermittent Fasting Stories. It just has grown and grown.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: I'm so grateful to every listener, everyone who's read the book, everyone who's recommended it to somebody else, and everyone who's shares intermittent fasting without fear, because that's why it's so popular and widespread. It's the people. This is a true grassroots effort. You know, a teacher from Augusta, Georgia, writing a number one weight loss book that is growing and growing, and the community is growing and growing, and here we are. Happy New Year. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I know. It couldn't be possible without our community.  

Gin Stephens: Exactly. The community is amazing.  

Melanie Avalon: It really, really is. Especially, I listen to a lot of stuff about people moaning and groaning about social media. I understand because I think social media is creating so many issues today and it's a very toxic environment in general. But my experience with it, it's just so wonderful. My community and everything, and so I'm really grateful for everything. 

Gin Stephens: My Facebook community was 99.9% wonderful. But when you have almost half a million people, even 0.1% hurt, [laughs] which is why it got too big for me. Someone said, I don't know if I said this on the podcast before. Someone said, "Oh, Gin got too big for Facebook." I'm like, "I thought, I was too good for Facebook or something?" I'm like, "Actually, it's the opposite. Facebook got too big for me. I couldn't manage it anymore and I just couldn't and have a good quality of life." But I'm grateful to the time I spent on Facebook.  

And even that 0.1% of roughness was worth all the headache and there were tears, it was hard. I'm grateful for the whole experience because I'm really enjoying the private community. Like I said, we're over 2,000 members there, since we switched it to the new, new platform, which is so good. We're loving it, and everyone is really finding the support we wanted all along. But anyway, life is good, and I'm grateful, and intermittent fasting makes it easy just to feel good in my life, too, right? It's the gift that keeps on giving. 

Melanie Avalon: I was reflecting on that actually, this morning, because I was thinking about how before intermittent fasting with the holidays, even when I was doing like low carb, I guess, it was just low carb because when I did paleo, I was already fasting. In any case, before intermittent fasting, whenever the holidays would come around, I would be so nervous about weight gain, and all of the holiday food, and recovering. I was just thinking about, I'm like, "There's no difference to me in the holidays now than there is the rest of the year." If anything, I do better during the holidays.  

Gin Stephens: I do. You know I don't weigh. I haven't weighed for years now. Probably if I did weigh, would see weight gain over the holidays, because I do indulge more. Because there's just different kinds of events and different kinds of food. I have a fully festive season and then, that season is over. [laughs] I don't stress about it and any weight gain I do have goes away without me stressing over it. I don't like have to tighten up my belt January or get back on the wagon. I'm actually tired of the festivities by the time New Year's Eve is over. I'm like, "Okay, thank goodness." [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I think, there's two types of approaches like who you still indulge more but it doesn't create these unchangeable ramifications. But then, like for me, I don't really indulge more because I literally don't crave it anymore. I'm just as happy eating what I normally eat that there's no point for me to have other things. So, they both work. 

Gin Stephens: I'm going to make eggnog today, probably. Yeah, I wouldn't normally be having eggnog. I mean, we're still the week before Christmas here. So, when we're recording this, so, I'm going to make some RumChata eggnog. [laughs] We're going to enjoy it. But I'm not going to make eggnog all year long. Yeah, it just feels like we're sitting by the Christmas tree, I feel like, we should have something festive. Will's here. He's staying here at our house for a little while. He's got a house that he's been living in, but he was feeling lonely. He's like, "Can I just come back home?" He's 22 and he's got his cat, and he's like, "You know--" I think, he's had all the fun and he's like, "Yeah, that wasn't really as much fun as I was expecting." You know what I mean?  

Melanie Avalon: With college? 

Gin Stephens: Well, he's not been in college. He only went to college for a year and a quarter. He's just been here living at home for a while, but then he moved out. He moved out, I guess, two years ago.  

Melanie Avalon: Gosh.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. He moved out two years ago and he's been living on his own for two years, but not in college. He's had all the fun he could have and he's like, "Okay, I'm done. Done with that if that makes sense."  

Melanie Avalon: Is he not finishing college?  

Gin Stephens: No. He dropped out of college after a year and a quarter. There's nothing that he wants to do in college right now. So, he's my musician, he's my artist.  

Melanie Avalon: Artsy? 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, he's playing music, he's got a band, and he likes to write music. But he's here at home and it just feels best of having him here. So, we're having our little holiday festive time. [laughs] So, what's up with you? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm super excited because I'm on the cover of Biohackers Magazine right now. 

Gin Stephens: That is really exciting. Is that like a paper magazine that you can actually get? Or is it a digital magazine? 

Gin Stephens: It's digital.  

Gin Stephens: It's still exciting.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, you can get it on Kindle or Google Books. I made a redirect link for it if you want to get it on Amazon. So, if you go to melanieavalon.com/biohackersmagazine or their website is biohackersmagazine.com. I'm on the cover. 

Gin Stephens: That is so exciting.  

Melanie Avalon: You're a great biohacker. [laughs] It has like an exclusive interview and I talk about fasting and wine, and I talk about the pandemic, and sleep, and it's really, really great. I had a really fun moment. So, it's created by a guy named Jean. I guess, his last name is Fallacara. But he's super incredible, he's really intense. He's all into calisthenics bodybuilding world. If you look at his Instagram, it's very impressive. So, it's his magazine and he wanted to have me on the cover. Yeah, so, that was exciting. But then something else that was fun was, I went on his IG Live this past week, and it's so interesting because Gin, have you done an IG Live? 

Gin Stephens: I have. I don't love them. I feel silly talking [laughs], I don't know, I don't like it. Yes, I have. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, it's interesting, because you can see how many people are popping in and out. So, it was just an interesting experience. I've done them before, but not with like a really big audience. But he has like thousands of people who watch his Lives. So, you see this number ticking of like, now, there's 2,000 people watching, now there's 1,500. It changes so fast, because people on Instagram, it's just so interesting how fast people's attention is. So, it's so interesting to see that number. I was getting so fixated on the number like, "How fast it was changing?" Then, I was comparing it to this experience with a podcast because we have a lot more than 2,000 people who listen to this show. But there's something different about it not being Live. I was much more aware of the audience. 

Gin Stephens: Doesn't it feel a little frantic? To me, it does when I'm on a Live. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I was much more aware of the audience and feeling watched or listened to, compared to this where there's thousands, and thousands, and thousands of people listening because they're not listening right now. It's very interesting. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it really, really is. I don't even mind being on a radio show. I just don't like people looking at me live on a video. I don't know why. Looking into a camera like I'm actually better in front of a live audience than I am.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, me, too.  

Gin Stephens: I don't mind being in front of a live audience. I'm going to do an event in January in Greenwood, South Carolina where I'm going to talk to just you know, people about intermittent fasting. For some reason sitting in front of the little screen trying, I don't know. [laughs] It's not my thing. I don't like doing lives at all. I don't like them. So, I just don't do them unless, I mean, I will if someone asks me and it's a big thing, but I'm nervous. I don't like it, it's out of my comfort zone anyway. 

Melanie Avalon: Same page. So, yep. So, we'll put links to everything that we've talked about thus far in the show notes, which will be at ifpodcast.com/episode246. One more thing Gin to talk about before we jump in. So, this is the brand-new year, the first episode of 2022. So, something that's pretty exciting is we work with-- that's another thing to be grateful for. All the amazing brands we work with on this show, especially, just how many brands that are out there, and it's just really wonderful that we have such long-term relationships with so many companies, and its things we really, really truly care about and love. So, I wanted to announce that we have a new brand that I think is going to be throughout the entire year.  

As listeners know, I'm a huge, huge fan of bone broth. I just think it's so, so healing for the body. Basically, it's a concentrated nutrient rich broth made from bones, and you get collagen, and so many nutrients that really, especially, can heal the gut lining. To clarify, I'm not talking about bone broth fasting. Bone broth is not fasting friendly. But I think, if you enjoy it, it's one of the best ways to break your fast actually, because at the end of a fast, your digestive tract is primed for receiving nutrients and it's the exact nutrients that your gut really needs to heal the lining.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, have them as a window opener. That would be a great recommendation. Bone broth window open, yep. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it'd be perfect for that, especially, if you have digestive issues, but really just in general. There are a lot of really great companies out there. Well, not a lot. There are a few great companies out there. But one of my new favorite companies is a fabulous woman named Melissa Bolona. I've had her on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, I can put a link to that in the show notes. She's also an actress, entrepreneur, started the bone broth company because she realized as an actress, she was having a lot of digestive issues, and skin problems, and she started drinking bone broth, and it had an amazing effect on her health, and her wellness and her, like, just perception of her vitality and all of that, especially, needing to be camera ready. So, she started her own company called Beauty & The Broth, and what's so cool about it is--  

I know all of this having had her on the show. Originally, she was going to make the way most companies do, which is the actual bone broth. But that's actually really expensive to ship as you guys can imagine. When she was in a meeting trying to figure out formulations, she saw that they had the bone broth samples concentrated down and she was like, "What is that?" They're like, "Oh, well, that's just how we concentrate it down in the in between stage." So then, she was like, "Wait, can't we do that, if that's going to happen anyways?" So, yeah, so, she basically came up with this whole idea to sell bone broth concentrate that ships to your home. 

Gin Stephens: I mean, that's genius. Because you're not shipping water. That's like the cleaning products that I use now. They send me the concentrate and I mix it up myself. So, it's like much better for the environment. You're not shipping giant packages of water into someone's house.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's much more environmentally friendly. Yeah, so it really is genius. It's much better for the environment. And then, the actual broth itself meets all of the criteria that you guys know I love. So, it's USDA organic, which I love. So, Melissa and I are really, really good friends now. I love hearing her lament about, ooh, the things that you have to go through to get USDA certification is just insane. So, it's USDA organic, it's shelf stable, it has no preservatives, oh, it has no salt added. That's huge. I was looking at all the other bone broths that I had in my freezer from other companies, because like I said, there are really great other companies but they all had salt. This one has no salt. It's delicious.  

She has two forms right now. She has a grass-fed, grass-finished beef, and then, she has a free-range antibiotic and hormone free chicken. Again, both of those are completely organic. The other great thing is, you can take them on the go with you, because they're in these packets. So, she ships a reusable mug made of rice, which is so cool. So, environmentally friendly. And you can just heat it up and cook it in the rice. So, no plastic with that cup. I love it. My listeners, ever since I aired that episode have loved it. So, I'm just so excited to have her sponsoring so many episodes this year. So, you guys will be hearing a lot about it and definitely, definitely try it. You will love it. We do have a code for listeners. So, her website is thebeautyandthebroth.com and the code, MELANIEAVALON will get you 15% off. So, definitely check that out.  

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free electrolytes that are clean, fast approved. Yep, free electrolytes with no additives, no fillers, clean, fast approved, here's the details. So, as you guys know, I am a huge fan of Robb Wolf. He's basically my hero in life. He wrote The Paleo Solution, and he's the reason that I'm doing what I do today. He co-founded a company called LMNT. Because he realized just how important the role of electrolytes are in our health. And not just our health, but our performance, our wellbeing, and so much more. In fact, a lot of times, people struggle with issues on low-carb diets, keto, or fasting. They might be fatigued, or have headaches, muscle cramps, basically a decline in mental and physical performance. That's because electrolytes are key for your body's hormonal and cellular function. And when we fast or do low-carb diets, they can often get out of whack. Most electrolyte supplements on the market are full of crazy additives, sweeteners, extra calories, and toxic ingredients that you just don't need in your body. That's where LMNT comes in. 

These supplements are formulated to give your body the exact electrolyte balance that you need including sodium, magnesium, and potassium because electrolytes are actually charged minerals that conduct electricity to power your nervous system. So, not only are they regulating your hydration status, they're actually determining how your cells conduct energy. If you want to learn all about the science of electrolytes as well as a lot of commonly asked questions like, can you just drink to thirst, is low sodium or high sodium dangerous, how should you supplement with electrolytes based on your diet and physical performance? Definitely, check out the interview I did with Robb Wolf on this podcast. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. I cannot tell you how many times I get listener feedback about people who have tried his LMNT and told me that it basically was the thing that felt like it turned their body back on. It's honestly, truly incredible. And it's not just you guys, LMNT is actually the exclusive hydration partner to Team USA weightlifting, also dozens of NFL, NBA, and NHL teams use and recommend LMNT, Navy SEALs, FBI Sniper teams, Marines, a lot of tech leaders, it is basically the supplement to get when it comes to electrolytes.  

Because LMNT hears so many amazing stories from customers every single day and often hear about how people get samples and then just get turned on and then want to tell all of their friends, LMNT decided to have an amazing VIP offer for our community. Yes, in the spirit of the holidays, LMNT is launching their saltiest offer ever for a limited time. Our community will be able to claim a free LMNT sampler pack. It only covers the cost of shipping. That's $5 for US customers. That's right. You'll get eight packets of LMNT, eight different flavors, the offer is limited one time per customer. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IF-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. When you get that sampler pack by the way, the raw unflavored one is the one that is clean, fast approved. All the other ones will be for your eating window. Again, to get your free LMNT sampler pack, just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. And we'll put all this information as well as that link to Robb Wolf's episode in the show notes. 

Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into questions for today? 

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started. 

Melanie Avalon: To start things off, we have a question from Taylor. The subject is: "Window placement issues." Taylor says, "Hello, ladies. I have a lot of windshield time while working and I'm so glad that I found y'all's podcast. Y'all are wonderful to listen to and very informative. I am a 28-year-old male, father of three girls, two of them being twins. So, between home and work, I have very little extra time. Being so short on time, I go to the gym at 5 AM to make sure I get the exercise in, but I don't start my window until 11 AM for the 11:6 window. I guess, my main question is, what is better between eating after the workout or before bed to supplement my body?" 

Gin Stephens: I guess, Melanie, he's asking like, "When does he need the protein, you think?" What do you think he means by supplement my body? 

Gin Stephens: I just took it to mean like, what eating window should he be doing in general given the fact that he's exercising at 5 AM? So, should he be having an earlier window?  

Gin Stephens: Closer to that?  

Melanie Avalon: He says, or before bed. Well, I guess, he probably goes to bed earlier, too. He's getting up that early.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, he is getting up early.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, should he have like an earlier breakfast-lunch window you think or should you have like a lunch-dinner window? 

Gin Stephens: I don't think there is a best answer for this Taylor, other than how do you feel. If you work out at 5 AM and then it's very easy for you to wait till 11 to eat, and that's a great time to open your window, and it fits with your routine, and then, you eat from 11:6, and then you close your window, and you continue to feel good, and then, you go to bed feeling good, then that sounds like ideal. Ideal is, what feels like a lifestyle to you, so that you don't want to be white knuckling it through your fasts on either end of your fast. If you eat too early, you might be too hungry later in the day. If you eat too late, you might be really hungry after your workout more like 11, 12 you're starving. So, don't fix what ain't broken, right? [laughs] If 11:6 feels good with your 5 AM workout, keep doing it.  

On the flipside, if you find you're so hungry that you just can't wait till 11, then, maybe you need to shift a little earlier. Or, if you're closing at six, and then you're so hungry at eight you can't stand it, shift it a little later. It's just really all about finding the sweet spot that works for you.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I cannot agree more. A really important question or actually, it is probably pretty important would be with the exercise, the type of exercise, and the goals of the exercise. Because he doesn't say anything about his stats, like he doesn't say if he's trying to lose weight, or if this is like muscle building, which are all different situations. Because for fat burning, for example, you might get the maximum fat burning benefit if you do wait longer to eat. You stimulated a lot of fat burning from the exercise, and then, you're really ramping up the fat burning mode with the fasting. But if it's not about that at all, it's like what Gin said. It would really be what's more comfortable for you.  

One thing we do know we've talked about a lot in this show before is, there's a thought out there that you have to eat immediately after working out and a lot of that is likely not accurate. So, some people think on the fueling side of things, "Oh, you need to refuel right after working out." But especially, for like weight loss goals and things like that, that's not necessarily needed. Especially, if you're in the fat burning state, you have energy coming from yourself. It's not like you completely run out and then don't have energy. Then, for the muscle building, the anabolic window can be up to 24 hours. Meaning, you do have 24 hours to take in your protein to build muscle. 

The only thing about building muscle per se is, there is the argument that can be made and this wouldn't exactly be super applicable for Taylor, because he already has a longer window that could encompass two meals. But it is possible that if you're actually trying to build muscle that you might benefit from multiple muscle protein synthesis moments. So, you might need a longer window with punctuated protein intake compared to one shorter window with a large protein intake. That's more for when you're getting into body building, muscle building, things like that. But yeah, it really is what's working for you. So, if you're doing what you're doing, and you're not hungry, and you're sleeping well, because sleep would the other thing, a lot of people adjust their windows to address their sleep habits. But if what you're doing is working, just do what's working.  

Gin Stephens: All right, I think, we got it. We have a question from Mary Ellen and the subject is: "celery powder." She says, "Hi ladies, I've been intermittent fasting for a few years and I love it. I recently had my first colonoscopy, and they found a lesion that will need to be removed in a separate colonoscopy. So, I am now changing my diet to be more conscious about the threat of colon cancer. I followed the Atkins diet for about 10 years prior to starting IF. So, I have a history of eating a ton of meat, beef, chicken sausage, cold cuts, anything that didn't have carbs. Thanks to you. I, now know about grass-fed, grass-finished meat and I will be giving up all cold cuts. I've been doing some research on uncured products like the bacon from ButcherBox. I'm finding that companies are now using celery powder in their uncured products instead of nitrates. This sounds like it's becoming controversial, because celery powder isn't necessarily safe in the way it's processed, but is being listed as organic. Melanie, have you looked into this at all? I know that you do a lot of research on the things you eat. Would you be able to give me any input if celery powder is truly safe? Thanks," Mary Ellen.  

Melanie, this is just me adding, I'm interested to hear what you have to say because I haven't looked into celery powder at all. I don't eat even like bacon. I rarely eat any kind of bacon or cold cut or sausage. Well, I do eat like sausage but that's different. But when I say a sausage, I mean like a summer sausage, like a hot dog or you know what I mean by that, kind of sausage?  

Melanie Avalon: Like hot dogs, yeah?  

Gin Stephens: Well, but not exactly even like hot dogs. It is more like Hickory Farms kind of sausage or something. I'll use loose sausage that's very-- It's basically just ground pork with maybe some whatever in there. So, I'll be interested to see this. But I really don't eat a lot of cured meat. I can't even think of the last time I had bacon. 

Melanie Avalon: Same here. I was excited to get this question for the reason that you just said, Gin, because I didn't know the answer. I was like, "Oh, that's actually I want to know this." So, I did a lot of research. First of all, I'm happy that you found the lesion that you had that colonoscopy. It's really wonderful that now you can be changing your diet accordingly. So, that's really, really wonderful that you found that. When it comes to meat and colon cancer, I'm not going to go into huge tangent on that. So, meat has been associated with colon cancer. The presentation of the studies has been a little bit overhyped because of material released by the WHO about meat being potentially a carcinogen. We talked about this on a recent episode, but the correlation is much stronger with processed meats, the correlation with actual meat, if you look at the actual data and what the numbers are saying, and especially, I think, if you take in factors like diet context, and the healthy user bias, and things like that, I'm not really personally worried about the meat-cancer connection. But the processed meat does have a lot more evidence behind it.  

One reason for that is because of the added nitrites and nitrates. That's what we're getting to with the celery powder here, that whole conversation. There's nitrites and nitrates. They're different things but they can have the same effect. They are added to meat for a few different reasons when they're curing meat to make processed meat like bologna, and bacon, and sausages, and things like that. So, they help preserve the meat, they work as anti-microbials. So, they can get rid of a lot of potentially problematic bacteria that can grow in meat, they give them meat a pinkish color. So, bologna, for example, would actually be great if it didn't have--  

Gin Stephens: Oh, gross. [laughs] I'm sorry. That just sounds-- I don't think anyone would eat grey bologna. What do you think?  

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know they extend the shelf life and they also add a flavor, and I thought this is really interesting. I was researching the flavor that they add. So, there's like this distinctive flavor that's in all processed meats, and it's really hard to put your finger on it, and they don't actually know what part of the nitrites and nitrates cause it, but it is from that. So, the problem is that, when these nitrites and nitrates I'm lumping them together, but when they're exposed to high heat, or iron, or if they bond with protein, those are things that are often found in meat. So, protein, iron, and then, meat is often heated, they can convert to nitrosamines and those are the compounds linked to cancer. So, nitrites and nitrates themselves are not carcinogens, but nitrosamines that they can form are. 

Our dietary load of nitrates and nitrites is actually about 50% to 75%. This was data from the UK and France, not the US. But this seems to be the general idea across the board. So, about 50% to 75% of our overall dietary intake every day is not from meat, it's actually from vegetables and water. It's a very small amount, even if you're eating processed meats that comes from meat. That said, it is in a concentrated form in the meat and like I said it is linked to cancer. So, meats that are cured with added nitrates and nitrites, they often have vitamin C or vitamin E added because those antioxidants can actually stop that reaction. It can actually stop them from becoming nitrosamines. So, I found one really fascinating study and it said that, if there's a ratio of antioxidants of 2:1, so, two times antioxidants to nitrite, it actually will completely inhibit nitrosamine formation. 

If you have adequate antioxidants that formation won't take place. I will not add added nitrates and nitrites to your diet. I do think that that's probably a reason that processed foods are linked to colon cancer. Okay, celery. So, in order to avoid this whole issue, companies started looking for alternatives to preserve meats and have the same effect. And celery powder is actually very, very highly concentrated in nitrites because remember how I said before that our vegetable intake is actually usually our highest source of exposure every single day. So, they're very high in celery.  

The controversy is that, when nitrates and nitrites are added in the form of celery powder, it's not considered added nitrate or nitrite. So, the product can actually say that it's uncured, even though, it's technically cured, it's just cured through the celery powder instead. The product can also say because of the regulations and I'm not going to stop myself and going on a tangent, but it's like the supplement industry like the nuances of regulations and how things can get twisted. The celery can be non-organic and it can be added for this purpose to an organic product. Why is that a problem? The EWG actually did a study and the vegetable with the highest amount of pesticides and chemicals was non-organic celery. 

Gin Stephens: Probably, because it is so watery, that makes sense. Like it just holds on to things, right? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It concentrates all of them. The irony is that you could have some organic "uncured meat," and then, you flip it over, and it has celery powder. So, it actually still has nitrates and nitrites and that celery powder is likely not organic. Then, on top of that, a further issue is that, when the nitrates and nitrites are in the form of added nitrates and nitrites, they have to be regulated. So, there's a maximum amount that can be in the product. When it's in the form of celery, it doesn't have to be regulated. So, we don't know but there could actually be way more nitrates and nitrites in theory, if celery powder is added because there's no regulation. All that said, some people say, "Well, it's from celery powder. So, it's more natural and it has probably more natural antioxidants and it's not as problematic."  

I thought for sure there would be like a really good study comparing celery powder to added nitrates and nitrites. So, I did find one study comparing them and it found that, when celery juice was added, used as a nitrite it created between 30 to 60 milligrams per kilograms of residual nitrate levels compared to 90 for added nitrites. So, somewhere between 300% or I guess, we're doing it reverse somewhere between 50% to 300% more in added versus celery. So, where do we go from here? Basically, I think that, oh, and then, one last point is that, the nitrites and the nitrates from celery can have the same effect. They can still convert to nitrosamines. It's really going to be the context of, are they in a context of heat, of iron, of proteins, and are there ample antioxidants? So, where do we go from here? I think that it's definitely something to be wary of. So, we are huge, huge fans of ButcherBox. They are actually a sponsor on today's show. They do have a bacon. For example, that is said to be like nitrate free, but that's because it has no added nitrates or nitrites. It still has the celery powder.  

If I had to choose between bacon with added nitrates and nitrites from pure form, chemical formulation compared to the celery, I would still probably choose the celery. I'm just more comfortable with that but that said, I think, it's really important just to have this education and make the choice for yourself. What's probably most important with all that is the actual meat itself. So, with ButcherBox's bacon, for example, like, it's pasture raised, it's sustainable, it doesn't have added sugar. So, if you're like a bacon person and you're having bacon, I would look at the entire context and make your decision with all of this in mind. But if you are super concerned about colon cancer like Mary Ellen, it probably would just be best to avoid processed meats. So, if you're ordering ButcherBox, maybe don't get the bacon maybe get everything else. That was really, really long, Gin. What are your thoughts? 

Gin Stephens: Well, you know, that just goes to show they can hide all sorts of things with innocent sounding words. We find that in all products, foods, cleaning products, personal care products, I talked about this a lot in Clean(ish). But here's the way I look at it. Think of a continuum of foods, right? Okay, I'm going to put bologna on the far end of ultra, ultra-processed probably don't want it. And then, on the opposite end of the continuum would be like, a slab of meat from a pig, like the actual just the pork, right? Just pork, and you're going to do something with it. Then, along that continuum, you've got things that are closer to the bologna, things that get closer just the pork itself. And that's the whole part like I talk about being Clean(ish). Where are you going to fall on that continuum?  

You could only eat the whole pork and that's. I was going to say, you couldn't but then I thought Melanie probably does, [laughs] decided not to say that. But most of us are probably not going to only just eat the pork. We're going to be on that continuum somewhere. So, I think like a ButcherBox kind of bacon is definitely closer to that, just the pork side. I just tried to be closer to that when I can. If you have a real health concern that you're really working on, then, you might want to err on the side of not having any processed meats at all. But it's really easy to avoid the super processed ones like the bologna's and the standard kind of bacon or things like that, the lunch meats. It's easy to not have those and just get closer to the real food continuum. You can start going down the rabbit hole of now you're afraid to eat anything and you're just eating like a slab of meat and vegetable. I don't want you to live like that, unless that is how you love to live. If it feels really good and that's how you like to eat, eat that way. But I'm going to eat bacon, I don't eat a lot of it. And that's why, I don't stress out so much.  

If something happened to my food delivery box, that happens from time to time, it will get lost in transit. The packing company will lose it. I don't know. So, we have to scramble for meals. We sometimes do breakfast for dinner, and Chad will buy bacon. It doesn't happen very often, thank goodness. But you'll buy like a really good quality, high-quality bacon, and I'm sure it's got celery powder in it, but it's on that continuum closer to the better side. But we don't eat that a lot. So, I'm not even at all worried about it. Because we're getting the best bacon we can find locally. It's not an everyday thing. So, it's just a matter of coming to terms with what you can feel comfortable with. If you were rarely eating bacon, then, I wouldn't hesitate to use one that had a celery powder kind of a thing in it. If it's an everyday thing, then it's time to be a little more choosy about it. That's really how I decide. 

If I were at a restaurant, and when I go out to eat, we don't have anything around me that's like super organic or you can't even find it. So, I don't even like investigate. If I wanted to eat a burger that had bacon on it, I would just eat it, and it would be closer to that bologna side of the continuum, but it's very rare. On the flip side, if I were someone who ate out a lot, I would be more choosy about what I chose to eat there. So, that's just a long way of saying, I think, the amount that you eat it, how much it's in your diet would determine how much you would want to be concerned about it. Does that make sense, Melanie? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, I was actually thinking that. So, I'm glad that you that you said that for sure. Yeah, and then just like keeping in mind the context of everything, so, having some bacon that's like super, super cooked and burned with other iron and high heat is going to be a lot more problematic than like some bacon in the context of a salad or like the context can make a huge difference. So, especially, if you're adding those antioxidants. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Oh, and by the way, I would eat bologna. Probably, not ever going to buy it but we used to eat fried bologna sandwiches and they were so good.  

Melanie Avalon: See, fried bologna would probably not-- [laughs] That would be an example of.  

Gin Stephens: You would not eat that ever. 

Melanie Avalon: I was going to say, it'd be an example of a way to really increase the nitrosamine potential.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I'm sure, it would be awful. I'm sure, it would be. But I'm cleanish. I would not probably eat that a lot. But if I were somewhere, let's imagine I'd had a couple of beers. Okay, hypothetically, [laughs] and there was like a fried bologna sandwich. Oh, my gosh, I would totally eat it. But it's not a day-to-day thing. So, I wouldn't stress about it. Like you're not ruining everything by having that one time. But probably, I 100% would not eat fried bologna sandwiches every day of my life and I wouldn't feel guilty if I ate one. It's all about keeping your toxic load low as over time by making good choices most of the time.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.  

Gin Stephens: Clean(ish), available now. [laughs] Tomorrow, available tomorrow. [laughs]  

Hi friends, are you struggling to lose weight despite fasting clean? Maybe you're even making healthy food choices, fasting more, shortening your eating window, ramping up your exercise, and yet the weight won't budge? Well, we actually just found a major reason for why that may be. As it turns out, there are compounds in our environment called endocrine disruptors. Meaning, they mess with your hormones. Studies show that a lot of these endocrine disruptors are actually obesogens. Meaning, they literally make you gain weight. They also make it hard to lose weight. These toxic obesogens are naturally stored in fat. When they enter your body, your body creates fat to store them in to protect you. Once they're in that fat, they then change the genes in your fat stores, so that you are more likely to store more fat and less likely to burn it. They can also affect your insulin signaling and boost your appetite so you want to eat more and store more fat. 

Most of us are actually exposed to these obesogenic endocrine disruptors daily in our skincare and makeup, that is actually one of the largest sources of these compounds. Yep. As it turns out, when you're washing your face, putting on makeup, using lotion, or even putting on sunscreen, you are likely putting one up to 1300 compounds banned in Europe for their toxicity and obesity causing potential but they're completely fine for use in US skincare. When you put them on your skin, you're making it that much harder to burn fat, and that much easier to store fat. So if you're struggling to lose weight, you definitely, definitely want to clean up your skincare ASAP. You can do that easily with a company called Beautycounter. 

They make safe skincare and makeup products that are extensively tested to be free of endocrine disrupters, obesogens, and other toxic compounds. They're truly safe and supportive of your health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. If you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd also like exclusive discounts, giveaways, and the latest on the science of skincare, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. So, are you fasting clean inside and out? Well, now, you can. All right, now, back to the show. 

Melanie Avalon: So, we have one last question from Christine and the subject is: "Mushroom supplement." And Christine says, "I read that mushroom like Reishi, Cordyceps, etc., supplements should be taken while fasting but I really want to check with you first because I can't find information on this anywhere else."  

Gin Stephens: All right. So, here's just a little quick tip. You can literally read that anything is okay to have while fasting like somewhere, just because you read it somewhere doesn't mean it's right with fasting. Because there is the train of thought that as long as you have fewer than 50 calories, it doesn't break a fast. I mean, I do not. Neither Melanie nor I agree with that. But that would mean you could literally have 50 calories, 49 calories of pizza, and it wouldn't break the fast. So, anyway, a lot of bad information out there. But I'm glad you're asking us, Christine. So, here's the thing. What you know, it depends if you're taking it as a supplement, we've got three fasting goals. We want to keep our insulin low by not taking anything that our body's going to think is food, anything that's going to-- we also don't want to stimulate digestion, we want to tap into our stored fat for fuel. So, we don't want to take in anything that's going to interfere with that. We want to keep autophagy going strong, we don't want to take in any source of protein, we want our autophagy to be maximized during the fast. For me, personally, my rule of thumb is, if it's food like I don't have it during the fast. So, I don't take supplements during the fast. Now, I will say, back when I took serrapeptase, oh, by the way, Melanie, I ordered some of your serrapeptase, it's coming. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh really? Oh, my goodness.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I ordered some. I want to see what it does. I'm just going to try it. Anyhow, so anyway, that is coming in. I will take that during the fast because it has to be kept away from food. Other than that, I don't take any supplements and I absolutely wouldn't take any supplements that were made from food, just personally as a rule of thumb. So, if I wanted to supplement with mushrooms, first of all, I would just probably eat mushroom. But I know these are some specialized mushrooms that have special properties. I would still keep it in my eating window. That's what I would do. Anything that's food like are made out of food, I just didn't like that sounds like food. I'm going to keep it during my eating window. So, what do you think about that, Melanie? 

Melanie Avalon: I agree as well. It's interesting. Somebody was posting in my group yesterday asking about taking turmeric and serrapeptase at the same time. I was thinking about this concept, because turmeric, people take it as a supplement. But to me, turmeric, I still think of it as a food, like a spice. For me, anything that is food related like Gin said, I would not take fasted. 

Gin Stephens: Here's something like turmeric for example. Can I just pop in with this? It actually works with food. I feel like, you would have better results from turmeric taking it with food. So, many things work synergistically with food. So, actually taking it in the isolated state is like not as good. It's not better. 

Melanie Avalon: I agree. The difference to clarify with serrapeptase like, so, why is it magical? Like why can we take it during the fast? It's not a food. It's an enzyme. It's not providing any energy. I don't know what else to say besides that it's an enzyme. So, it's going into your bloodstream, and it's working on cells, and it's actually, I think, it synergistically works with fasting incredibly, because it's up regulating processes that your body would be doing while fasting. Like, breaking down old proteins and it's very much like in a way, it's like amplifying the fast, I think. So, anything that's like nutrient or food related, I would definitely take as part of your eating window and I agree, Gin that I think it works synergistically with your food when it's food related.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, like turmeric and black pepper work together. I mean, you would cook with both of them. If you're making a dish that had turmeric and would probably add pepper, because it's delicious and that's how we cook. But they actually, those compounds work synergistically together and provide more benefits together than they would in isolation. So, that's the thing. If we just stick with food, and the herbs, and the spices, and just keep them in the context of food, they're helping you get the phytochemicals out of the food. They work together and they give you more benefits together than if you're just popping a pill in isolation. I don't know. We've gotten said it like, we want to just take a pill for it or have it used in isolation when the magic is with the food. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and actually to that point, so, I'm actually super on the fence about the turmeric, black pepper combination, because that is often proposed as a way to make it more bioavailable. But then, I've listened to research saying, "The Black pepper does something with inhibiting some enzyme and something, something, something." I have to find the research that I was looking at. But basically, it's debated if that's actually what you want. So, that's why, I actually get nervous about concentrated pills that are black pepper-curcumin, or black pepper-turmeric combinations. But like in the context of a meal, adding pepper and adding turmeric, I just think it naturally regulates itself and probably does what it needs to be doing when it's in like its Whole Foods form. I actually get a little bit nervous with trying to figure out the specific mechanism of action of turmeric, and then, concentrating it.  

For example, with turmeric, they'll often make curcumin supplements which is basically the active ingredient in turmeric that is often thought to be the cause of the health benefits. So, they'll make curcumin supplements. But then, the literature on curcumin isn't exactly what you would think it would be for all of the benefits that we see with turmeric. I think, it's probably because there's probably a lot going on synergistically with a lot of stuff in turmeric that just taking the isolated curcumin, it might not be having that same effect. 

Gin Stephens: I, 100% talk about this in Clean(ish). No, yeah, Clean(ish), like we're going to talk about that. Yes, Clean(ish). [laughs] What's the name of my book, where am I, what am I doing? Anyway, in Clean(ish), I talk about this. We think that we know what is doing it. Like you just said, we think we've identified, this is the compound in turmeric that makes it so magical. Let's isolate it, and then, take just that. But really in these herbs, and spices, and plant foods like a tomato, there are thousands of phytochemicals in there. So, there are actually some studies, I can't remember exactly what it was about. But there was a study that I talked about that, off the top my head, they isolated the compound, and they're like, "This is going to be beneficial" and it actually made people worse when they isolated it. I can't remember what it was. But that just goes to show, we really don't know as much as we think we do. It's not like that's the one magical thing in there that's providing the benefit. It's really all of it is in there doing stuff. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, actually, the massive rabbit hole I'm in right now is, I've been researching for berberine, because berberine is this compound that has incredible effects and studies for regulating blood sugar levels, reducing A1c. People focus on it for blood sugar, but it does so many other things as well. Now, they make dihydrate berberine, which is like, it's one of the metabolites of berberine because it is supposed to have greater effects on blood sugar levels and be easier to absorb. I'm so haunted and torn right now about, is it possible that there are things in berberine besides the dihydrate berberine that maybe we're missing out? It's really hard to know. 

Gin Stephens: I would say highly likely. That's highly likely. Because whenever we try to keep isolating, drilling down to that one thing, you're missing all those other things like, that you don't even know what they're doing, and they might be really, really important. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, not that I'm developing a berberine or anything, but I'm like trying to figure out the answer to this question. But yeah, it's really, really interesting and I think, context is so important and so key. Oh, and I want to throw in a link because if anybody would like to get my serrapeptase, you can get it at avalonx.us. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. Again, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode246. You can get all the stuff that we like and ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike and you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens, and I think, that is all the things. And Gin, happy launch night. So, for listeners listening today, is it like at midnight that it starts? 

Gin Stephens: I don't know. I don't know, like when it downloads on your Kindle, I have no idea. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I will say, if you ever do a midnight launch, just take into consideration. People might not like it. 

Gin Stephens: Look, I got nothing to do with this launch. I just wrote the book and turned it all in. The publisher is 100% in charge. If there's something wrong with a copy of your book, don't email me. I didn't know. That does happen sometimes. [laughs] Printing error, go back to where you bought it. They will be able to help you. I cannot help you. Believe it or not. I'm just the one who wrote the book. But in the publishing world, that's less important than you would think. I mean, no, not really. But you know what I mean? There's a lot of people with their hands on this along the way. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, congrats in advance. I'm very excited for you. This is very exciting. What a way to start the New Year? 

Gin Stephens: I know. I'm so excited and scared. I'm scared. 

Melanie Avalon: I was going to say, don't be scared, but I think all feelings are fine.  

Gin Stephens: Well, when you put anything out into the world, you don't know how people are going to perceive it, or like it, or if they won't like it, and I know the main people who have read Clean(ish) so far, believe it or not, or people who are not in my main audience, you know, people like Abel James, or I mean, I love Cynthia Thurlow, but she doesn't listen to my-- You know, she's read it. You know, people like that, I was just on someone's podcast this week and he had a copy of it. So, those people have all really liked it. But I'm like, "But what if my audience doesn't like it?" Just because these other people like it, it doesn't mean my audience is going to like it. So, I hope, the people do. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm sure your audience will love it. I haven't read it yet, but I don't see why they wouldn't, based on what I know.  

Gin Stephens: I hope they do. It actually has more science. It's more sciency than anything I've written before. 

Melanie Avalon: I can't wait to read it. I can't wait to have you on the show for it.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I can't wait either. You know, it's long. It's like 400 and something pages long ,but there were things I had to leave out. I mean, you can't talk about everything. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. I know.  

Gin Stephens: There're too many things.  

Melanie Avalon: So many things. 

Gin Stephens: It could have been like a million pages long. I finally would like had to stop writing things. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm very excited, too. I'm going to listen to it on, because whenever I'm prepping for the show, it's always like, "Am I reading it or am I doing on Kindle, am I reading it or am I listening on the audiobook?" And yours, I will be listening on the audiobook.  

Gin Stephens: I'll drop a copy in the mail because I've got all these copies that they sent me. So, I'll get a copy sent off to you. I can pop it in there.  

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.  

Gin Stephens: All right, bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 245 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get more than seven pounds of high-quality responsibly farmed meat all for free. Yes, for free. So, the holidays are upon us and I don't know about you, but when I think about holidays, I often think food, and then the second thing I often think is, "Hmm, I wonder what will be the quality of all of the meat and seafood at all of the family gatherings." It can definitely seem intimidating and expensive to get high quality meat that you can trust. Thankfully, there is an easy solution. It's a company I've been a fan of for years and that is ButcherBox. They are an incredible company that takes out the middleman of the grocery store to directly connect customers to farmers. They vet these farmers, they find the farmers that truly support the health of the animals, the environment, and ultimately, your health so that you can finally get meat of the highest standards, 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free range organic chicken, wild caught seafood, and more. And trust me, the seafood industry is sketchy. ButcherBox goes to great lengths for transparency and sustainability so you can truly feel good about what you're eating. I read Dr. Robert Lustig's book, Metabolical and was blown away by the shocking statistics of fraud in the seafood industry. But back to meat. ButcherBox's meat is delicious. Each box contains eight to 14 pounds of meat depending on your box type. It's packed fresh and shipped frozen for your convenience. You can choose a curated box or customize it to get exactly what you want, and it's shipped straight to your door, and it tastes delicious.  

The ButcherBox steaks are honestly some of the best steaks I've ever had in my entire life. My dad is a huge spaghetti fan and he remarked that the ground beef was the best ground beef he had ever had. My brother reported back about the porkchops and the bacon, basically, this stuff is delicious. And for limited time, ButcherBox is offering new members an amazing deal for the new year. Just sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, and you'll receive the ultimate New Year's bundle in your first box. This deal includes grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef, organic free-range chicken thighs, and heritage breed pork butt. That's more than seven pounds of meat added to your first box all for free. So, get this New Year's bundle before it's gone by going to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. 

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.  

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show.  

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 245 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens.  

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: I am fabulous because I am at the beach cottage with Will and we're having a great time.  

Melanie Avalon: That's lovely.  

Gin Stephens: It was a spur of the moment kind of a trip. I was going to come this weekend with college friends, but then we had the ACC championship. So, we did that last weekend. So, they're like, "We can't get away again." I'm like, "That's fine. I'll go by myself." Will didn't have anything to do. I'm like, "Come with me." So, yeah, he's doing a lot of painting. Now, he's sitting on the beach with his guitar. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: He's so creative.  

Gin Stephens: He really is. He is so creative. He's 22 and completely right brained and is happiest when he's creating something. He likes to create music, he writes music, and now, he likes to paint. So, I love that.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, I had a fun event on Friday.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, what was that?  

Melanie Avalon: I had dinner with one of my podcast guests.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's fun. I love it.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. It was very exciting. It's weird. I was thinking about it. Most of my really good friends now are all people I've met on my Biohacking Podcast. Isn't that weird? It's so crazy.  

Gin Stephens: You know, it sounds weird except that a lot of my really good friends are people that I met through my Intermittent Fasting Groups and like their real good friends. I mean, obviously, my college friends are people I've known a long time but a lot of my really close friends have been on my podcast. All right, I didn't meet them till after they were on my podcast like face-to-face.  

Melanie Avalon: The people I talk to pretty much every day are people I met in the podcast and then just started talking to after and really got to know really well. So, the person I went with though, I'm not super close or anything, but it was Dr. Eric Zielinski. So, he wrote The Healing Power of Essential Oils. I think that's the title of his first book. I didn't even realize we have the same agent, all of us.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's great. So many people do.  

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know. Same literary agent. Yeah, it was so fun. So, it was me, and him, and his wife, and their new baby, and my sister, and it was just a really fun time. It was really fun because yeah, like I just said it was only the second person I've met in real life from the show. Because he actually lives here in Atlanta.  

Gin Stephens: I've met people in real life that you haven't met in real life that I met through you.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. Are true. So, yeah, it was really fun.  

Gin Stephens: Like, I can think of three. Three people that I've met in real life that I know through you only, but I've met them in real life and you have not. [laughs] And I'm not counting Cynthia Thurlow, because I actually met her first.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, she and I met first. We were on a radio program together. We didn't know anything about the other person and we both talked afterwards about here, we're like, "What is she going to say? Is it going to be the opposite of what I say?" But we found we were very in sync.  

Melanie Avalon: I was actually reading her book last night, her new book. 

Gin Stephens: Her book comes out March.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, in March. Okay. So, her book is about intermittent fasting and I'm not saying this to sound like a 'no' at all, but when I read a book about intermittent fasting, it's just so overwhelmingly familiar, like all of the information.  

Gin Stephens: You're like, "Yep, yep, yep."  

Melanie Avalon: It's hard for me to think what would this be like to read this. 

Gin Stephens: For the first time?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.  

Gin Stephens: I know what you mean. I 100% get it. But yeah, I met her first and then, you met her later. But the other three, can you think of all three of them?  

Melanie Avalon: Shawn Wells.  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: Anna Cabeca.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I forgot about her. Okay, four. [laughs] Yes, Anna Cabeca, four, because I forgot that I met her through you. But I did. Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: Wade Lightheart.  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: And, okay, so, there's one more.  

Gin Stephens: Yep. Somebody, he is been on our podcast. Oh, and there's another one, too. There's five. Both of the others have been--  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, Todd White.  

Gin Stephens: Yes. And of course, we can't forget the main one. The reason I was at the conference.  

Melanie Avalon: JJ Virgin.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.  

Gin Stephens: Isn't that fun? Now, I've met all of them face-to-face.  

Melanie Avalon: That's so crazy. That was a fun game. I like guessing games.  

Gin Stephens: I know you do. That's why I was happy to do it because I was like, "Melanie's going to like this." You did a good job and you've got all of them. [laughs] And they're all just lovely. That's the best thing.  

Melanie Avalon: That's what I was reflecting on. Because I was posting about it on my Instagram today, and I was just reflecting on how it's all really, really wonderful people. Literally, it's my closest friends now, not necessarily that group that we just mentioned but-- 

Gin Stephens: The conference that I went to where I met all of them face-to-face, you know, JJ Virgin puts it on, and it is the best community of people. You know, the people that you know from your podcast are all probably very in the same circle. I really think JJ Virgin has a lot to do with that because she has a philosophy of, we should all work together and lift one another up, and like a rising tide lifts all ships and that everyone works together, and that we're not in competition, we're in collaboration.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's definitely the way I feel it.  

Gin Stephens: That's exactly the way this whole community feels. So, everyone is a generous supporter of everyone else. Even if you don't have the same philosophies about things, people talk about them respectfully together, and it really is just an amazing group that she has put together and cultivates. 

Melanie Avalon: I think that's so important. I also, think there's often, I don't think it's necessarily true but there's this cultural idea that like women in particular get competitive when it comes to business rather than collaborative, and yeah, that just doesn't resonate with me.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And the whole idea that we can disagree about things and still like each other. I'm talking to in a big general, not like just me and you. But in a general world of like the health world.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes.  

Gin Stephens: Like Wade Lightheart and his partner that eat differently. We've talked about them a lot but that you can have different philosophies and still collaborate. Anyway, I just love it.  

Melanie Avalon: I do, too. I have one more update. I can't say what it is yet exactly.  

Gin Stephens: That's a fun one. No, I'm kidding.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. But I just want listeners to know that I'm really getting closer to currently developing a supplement number two and it's very exciting.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, here's the funny story. Can I tell you a funny story about supplements?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes.  

Gin Stephens: I was telling Chad about your supplement and how great it was going. I'm like, "I'm never going to make a supplement." He's like, "What do you mean?" Because he's a medicinal chemist. [laughs] So, I actually have someone living in my house who probably could formulate a supplement. He's like, "What do you mean? We could make a supplement." I'm like, "I don't want to make a supplement." He's like, "But we could. We could do that." He's at the point. He just found out he can retire after one more semester. He can retire and start drawing retirement. He's not sure if he's going to. He hasn't decided but he can. So, he might be like, "Let's make some supplements." I'd be like, "Oh, okay, you're in charge of that, Chad." But after I've always said, I wouldn't, I'm still not planning to but the way he reacted was just so funny.  

Melanie Avalon: That's really funny.  

Gin Stephens: He's like, "I could do that." I mean, he totally could. Drug design is his thing but [laughs] he's going to have to be 100% in charge. It'll be Chad not me. I don't really want to make supplements. But I'm glad it's going well for you.  

Melanie Avalon: It's going so well. It's just so fun and I said this before, but it's just really exciting to see this concept manifest in real life and for it to work so well. Oh, my goodness, so, the supplement, I haven't mentioned the one out right now, which is serrapeptase. I think, I've mentioned before that I have this mole on my nose that won't go away that I keep getting it like lasered off or shaved off and it keeps coming back. I was wondering if the serrapeptase would do something, but I think it's actually going away now.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. Well, then I've got to get your serrapeptase and take it because I've got an eyebrow mole and I need that eyebrow-- It drives me crazy. The hair grows straight out of it like a witch's mole. I mean, so, I have to pluck it. Like right in the middle of my eyebrow, I have to pluck all that hair out, and then, I have a bald spot in the middle of my eyebrow. It could be worse, right?  

Melanie Avalon: So, it's colored? Like it's brown?  

Gin Stephens: No. It's skin color. It's a skin color mole.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah. That's what mine is, too.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. But it is right there in the very middle of my eyebrow, and the hair that grows out of it right there just sticks straight out like crazy. One day when I'm really old, I'll just let it go. I won't care.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, maybe you can try my serrapeptase and maybe it will. 

Gin Stephens: I need to. Does that make my mole go away then that would be amazing?  

Melanie Avalon: That would be so exciting.  

Gin Stephens: So, I will never do a supplement because you'll have all the supplements. So, I don't need to. 

Melanie Avalon: I think, I definitely know my next five that I want to do. So, when this episode comes out, we're doing a holiday special. Okay, we're logging down the details probably tomorrow. So, this might change. But what I think it's going to be is, I think, it's going to be 25% off which is crazy. So, 25% off, and then, I think, it's going to be that if you order it while it's 25% off, then you get like a special link. You can send to your friends, and then, if they use that link, they get 20% off of a future order, and you also get 20% off for every friend that purchases. It's like refer a friend thing. So, that's all at avalonx.com, and then my email list for information about the future supplements, and then, like that special and all the things is melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase. S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. So, yeah, and last thing, do you know what I really want to develop Gin, I guess, it would be under my supplement line, but it's not a supplement that you take internally.  

Gin Stephens: I don't know if I could ever guess.  

Melanie Avalon: I want to make a fasting fat unlocking cream.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. What? You're going to have to explain it. I'm so confused. [laughs] I feel like fasting just unlocks the fat already.  

Melanie Avalon: Well. Okay, so, a lot people have stubborn fat. It's often subcutaneous fat. So, it's like that fat that you can pinch. So, love handles, and maybe on your arms, or on your abs. So, yes, fasting puts you into a fat burning state and encourages fat burning but a lot of times those actual fat cells, there's receptors on fat cells that basically determine whether or not they are releasing their fat or storing their fat. Even if you're fasting, fasting does not necessarily mean that you'll automatically, easily open up all your fat cells to be used. Especially, depending on their metabolic state and where they're at like people who you know, yo-yo diet, I think, the more you lose and regain, and lose and regain fat, the more resistant your fat cells come to losing their fat again. So, if you literally put a compound into the fat cell topically that activates receptors that encourages the fat cells to release their content, then, I think, you can more easily burn stubborn fat while fasting. So, it's like upgrading your fasting, like if people were to drink coffee and find that that helps them burn more fat.  

So, there are different compounds that do this like caffeine, and menthol, and green tea, and I found one that I currently use, and I like the ingredients mostly, but it's not completely clean, and I just want to make one that has no problematic ingredients and just these active ingredients, and I think, it can go two ways people who have really stubborn fat and maybe a lot of it, it can help that for sure. But also, people who don't even necessarily need to lose weight, but they have like, just it seems little stubborn areas, I think, it can really, really benefit that while fasting. So, it would be a fat unlocking cream. It wouldn't actually burn any fat, but it would make it easier to burn, to spot treat fat burning while fasting.  

Gin Stephens: All right, well, that's interesting.  

Melanie Avalon: That's my pitch. [laughs] I'm so excited. Yeah, I'm inspired because the one I've ordered is actually, I'm a bit shocked how well it's working, but it has stuff in it that I don't like. So, I've got to make my own version.  

Gin Stephens: Well, it's fun to know connections so that you can make things that have just the ingredients you want in them.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, definitely. Like the one I'm using right now is like bright blue. I'm like, well, it was not good, dyes and stuff like that.  

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?  

Gin Stephens: Yep, let's get started.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off-- Oh, I don't think I even realized this was from a Melanie.  

Gin Stephens: I've actually met this Melanie face to face.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. She was on my podcast. So, I wonder when she sent this one in, it might have been like a long time ago. It might be an old one because I've met her face to face and she was on my podcast.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.  

Gin Stephens: I know.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, hello, Melanie. The subject is: "Episode number 1 and eating earlier." So, Melanie says, "I just listened to my first IF podcast." So, she had just listened with this had been a while ago, you think?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. I don't know because I don't know when people listen to Intermittent Fasting Stories, and then, they might run out of those, then, they start Intermittent Fasting Podcast, so, it's hard to know. The question that she asked about me makes me feel like maybe this was before. You'll see when you keep reading it.  

Melanie Avalon: So, she says, "It was fantastic. I really enjoyed it." And this is a question we get a lot. She says, but where is Episode 1, on iTunes, it starts as number two. Yes. There is no Episode 1. We had technical difficulties with it and it's lost forever. I don't even know. Yeah, it's lost. [laughs] I'm sorry. It's funny. Sometimes, I think, occasionally we've had a question where they say, they actually heard Episode 1, and that's how you know they've been there since day one. Her second question. She says, "Gin was talking about how if there is a family gathering i.e., brunch she eats earlier. Does she still follow up with a five-hour rule and stop eating after five hours no matter what time of day it is? Thanks, and again loved my first episode, you both sound great together." She's from Canada. 

Gin Stephens: Yep. And this is why I think she probably knows the answer to this now. But the answer is, of course, probably, people who've been listening a long time know that I do not time my window anymore at all. For example, yesterday, I had brunch with Will. It actually wasn't very early we went at 2. There's this place down here they have this jazz brunch, and it's fantastic, and I love to go there. It's called LOCAL. It's in Pawleys Island. If anyone's ever down in the Pawleys Island area, go to LOCAL, I love it. They made me a mocktail, I had eggs Benedict, we split avocado toast, we listened to jazz, yum. But it was 2 o'clock. And then, if I was still following the 5 o'clock rule, I would be like, "All right, must stop eating by seven." Nope. [laughs] I no longer do that at all. I just go with the flow depending on what day it is and what's happening. There are many days that my window is shorter.  

For example, let's see what day is it. Today's Sunday. We're recording. We came to the beach. Okay, Wednesday and Thursday--, both Wednesday and Thursday, I was busy. So, I didn't eat until later probably, 6:00, 6:30, something like that. I had dinner, closed my window less than an hour, two days in a row. Then, I've had a couple of days right after that with longer windows. So, I feel like it all balances out. I would really be, I mean, of course, I don't track it. It would be interesting to see what my average is. I bet my average is probably five hours or less but I don't even know. So, I no longer track anything. I just wait till I open my window and then I close it when I'm done whatever that may be. 

Melanie Avalon: When you're tracking, would you adjust for that?  

Gin Stephens: Well, when I was trying to lose weight, see that was a different thing. When I was trying to lose weight, I was following Dr. Bert Herring's Fast‑5, and he had 19:5 as the foundation of his plan. And his one rule is, find a consecutive five-hour window every single day and stick to it. That was the only rule. It needed to be a consecutive five-hour window. And he didn't even talk at all about tracking the fast. It was like, you have that, the boundaries of the five-hour window, you open, you close it within five hours. He's like, "Of course, you're going to have some days where it's longer, some days were shorter, but in general, five-hour window." So, that's the way I was raised up my early days with the Fast-5 program. So, when I was losing weight, that's what I tried to stick to.  

Melanie Avalon: When you were doing that, if you had opened it earlier, you would just do it earlier five-hour window?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. But that didn't always work so well. People have heard me talk about this before, when I open early, even if I have a giant brunch at noon, a giant meal. Let's say, I have a Thanksgiving dinner at noon.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. 

Gin Stephens: I'm probably going to feel great till about 8 PM. It is just about what I've noticed for myself. So, I'm like, "I'm just going to eat this one big meal, and then, I'll be fine. And then, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine." 8 PM rolls around, I'm starving. So, I have two options at that point. I can be like, "I'm just going to push through the hunger and go to bed." But I don't do that. If I'm starving at 8 PM, I eat again. I don't like to go to bed starving. That's not the right answer for everybody. Maybe someone else push through. But it's easier for me to push through, after I wake up in the morning, fast longer than it is for me to push through in a day when I've closed my eating window, and now, I'm starving again.  

Melanie Avalon: We talked about this, but I'm the exact same way-- The exact same way. All right. Shall we go on to our next question?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. And this is from Angela, and the subject is: "Processed versus plant-based." She says, "Hi, hello, Melanie and Gin. I am a 33-year-old female who has been experimenting with intermittent fasting since November of 2019. I lost a total of 20 pounds between November and December of 2019 and have over 50 more to go. Then, I slowly went back to my old ways in February, but never fear I'm going to continue IF immediately. It is the only thing I have found that has helped combat my chronic fatigue in addition to weight loss. So, we know that processed foods aren't the best for our bodies and Whole Foods provide more nutrition. My body doesn't do well with most meats. I can have very lean meat and fish. So, I've been looking into incorporating plant-based foods into my diet. My question is kind of threefold. First, if I am eating pre-processed, pre-packaged plant-based foods, is it counterproductive to try to increase nutrition?" It's never counterproductive to try to increase nutrition. I'm just going to say that.  

Melanie Avalon: I agree.  

Gin Stephens: Although, we can talk about the first part in a minute, but it's never counterproductive to increase nutrients. All right. "Second, what should we be looking for so far as no added this in plant-based products? Last, are there any plant-based foods or food brands that you can recommend? Thank you, ladies for all that you do. You bring so much inspiration and information to us all and all I can say is," she's going to love Clean(ish). Angela needs to read Clean(ish), because it's all explained in there. So much detail. But anyway, you get to go first, so, I'll let you talk about it first.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, this is a great question from Angela. This definitely in my opinion touches into something that I see a lot now, especially, with the plant-based food movement, which is where a lot of people are making the dietary choice for health, or environmental, or ethical reasons to go plant-based, which can be really great for the individual depending on the individual's constitution. But there are a lot of like Angela said, you know, pre-processed, pre-packaged plant-based foods that may come with their own array of issues.  

Gin Stephens: Like Girl Scout Thin Mint cookies. I think, they're vegan. [laughs] So, yeah, they call something vegan and you're like, "Oh, it's so healthy." No, it is a Girl Scout Thin Mint cookie.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I mean, think about how many just like of the breakfast cereals on the market are probably technically vegan. Sugar is vegan. Yeah, so, a lot of things. I did a lot of research on this, by the way for brands and stuff, the different thoughts. There is the option of less processed, less pre-packaged plant-based foods. So, you could still be making meat alternatives yourself and I know that might require more time, but once you figure out the system that works for you and how to cook it and what you like and integrate it into your life, I think, the cost benefit of learning how to make food closer to its natural form that you really like long term in the health world will have massive, massive benefits. So, if that's an option, I would definitely go that route. So, that would be things like, if you are eating soy or tofu, getting that more plain and cooking it the way you like or things like mushrooms or-- Did she say, she's vegan or vegetarian?  

Gin Stephens: She just said plant-based. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, she does have lean meat and fish. So, you might be having eggs, and lean meat, and fish. You could still stay in the Whole Foods world and make it work plant-based wise. If you are having more of the pre-processed, pre-packaged plant-based foods, things you would want to look for, it's really, really shocking. If you turn over most of the things in the market and see the ingredients, there's just so much stuff. So, things I would look for are anything you can't pronounce or don't know what it is, that's probably not the best sign. A lot of like gums and carrageenan are added to these foods, and those can be problematic, they can be inflammatory. If it ever says like natural flavors that can be anything, so that's a little bit sketchy.  

Gin Stephens: It could be MSG. They hide that under all sorts of flavor kind of things. 

Melanie Avalon: Something I personally am very concerned with is refined seed oils, and I've done an episode with Dr. Cate Shanahan all on this. If you'd like to learn more, that's at melanieavalon.com/fatburnfix. But that's all about the potential problematic issue of refined added vegetable and seed oils. So, that's vegetable oil and there's like you can remember it because there's three C's three S's, there's probably more but that's a way to remember the main ones. So, it's canola, corn, cottonseed, soy,- 

Gin Stephens: Sunflower. 

Melanie Avalon: -sunflower? Yeah, sunflower. I would be really wary of those in the foods. The ironic thing about it is that, a lot of the vegan and vegetarian foods will actually use these oils because it's a way for them to have less saturated fat, and it works for them, and what they're trying to make the label say. But the problem with these oils is they are highly, highly unstable. So, when they are refined like that and then in these foods, they can really create a lot of inflammation in the body and oxidative issues. So, I would really, really avoid added C in vegetable oils. If you are having soy which is going to be pretty prevalent in the plant-based world, the majority of soy is GMO. So, I would look for organic soy only. My thoughts on soy have been changing. So, I've always sort of historically been on the fence and a little bit confused, and I didn't do a really, really deep dive until pretty recently because I interviewed Dr. Neal Barnard, who is one of the top vegan proponents of all the vegans.  

A lot of listeners probably know who he is because he's in all the documentaries, he has a lot of books. I interviewed him finally, like two weeks ago. So, that episode I think will come out around March or so. He wanted to come on actually for his study about soy. So, ooh, I went deep. I read everything I could find and my takeaway was that-- we've talked about this on a recent show, so I won't go too deep into it. But my takeaway was that, it's probably very context dependent. It probably depends on your gut microbiome, it probably depends on your genetics as to whether or not you benefit. I think, it might depend on your current estrogen burden. But in any case, I think, going the natural route, so, non-GMO, organic soy and/or like fermented soy, which is called tempeh would be the route to go if you go that route. So, yes. So, my suggestion would be to turn over, go to like Whole Foods, and look at all the brands, and turn them over, and see what's in them. I will list some brands that I like.  

So, Primal Kitchen does make some vegan, and like non-dairy condiments and things like that. So, you could check them out. Check out Amy's. If you're sensitive to gluten, that's something that you would want to be looking for. So, any grains or gluten and the products. I like Eden Foods. That's a brand they make some soy milks, and soups, and they're mostly organic, no additives or they might be all organic. A good dairy alternative is coconut milk but it's pretty hard to find coconut milk without gums and carrageenan, but I know they do have one at Trader Joe's and Native Forest is also a brand. If you're going with the vegan milk still, it's like almond milk, it's really hard to find one without additives, but MALK is a brand that doesn't have any problematic ingredients, For the soy, SoyBoy is a brand that I like. They have soy and they have a Tempeh.  

Again, check their ingredients though because some of the different flavors have problematic additives. There's a meat alternative made from jackfruit and Upton's makes an original form that doesn't have any additives. So, that's something that you could try. You can also get organic canned jackfruit. So, that might be something to cook with. Mushrooms, by the way, are also fun things to add and use as meat alternatives. Especially, the really big like portabella mushrooms. I like some of this Dr. Praeger's that they have at Whole Foods, but it's not organic is the only thing. Maybe that's a place to start but I would definitely either way, there's going to be like, if you really want to invest in this, there's going to be a learning curve, where you are going to just need to familiarize yourself with brands, and then also, like I said maybe learn how to make vegan or vegetarian plant-based alternatives yourself in a more whole foods form. 

Gin Stephens: I have a few things to add, although, you've said a lot as usual, which is good. [laughs] You are thorough, that's the word I'm looking for. So, I really think like I said, Angela, you're going to love Clean(ish), because it can get really hard to decide, you know, how perfect do you want to be? That's where the ish comes in. We know for certain but there's a lot of stuff we don't know for certain in the health world. You'll find a study that says one thing, you'll find something else that says something contradictory, but I will pretty much say, Melanie, see if you agree with me here. We know for certain that no one gets healthier by increasing the amount of ultra-processed foods in their diet. Would you say that's pretty much one thing we know for sure?  

Melanie Avalon: No one gets healthier by increasing ultra-processed foods. I don't like to ever say I'm certain about anything.  

Gin Stephens: I know. I don't either. But this is one where I'm pretty certain. 

Melanie Avalon: That is the closest to approaching certain that I can get.  

Gin Stephens: I've never seen a study that implied otherwise, more and more, ever since the term ultra-processed came out, which really hasn't been very long. I talk about this a lot more detail like I said in Clean(ish). We used to just say processed, but that is a misleading term. Because if you shuck an ear of corn and slice it off the cob and cook it, you've just processed it. But if you grind your wheat into flour, you just processed it. So, processing itself is not a bad thing. It's the ultra-processed, that's the problem. Once we got that terminology, it really helped make things clear. You want to eat things that are not ultra-processed when you can. But again, I'm cleanish. Melanie just listed a whole bunch of options that are probably considered to be ultra-processed but still better than other options that are ultra-processed. Feed foods can be organic, and also ultra-processed at the same time. We think that if it says organic on the label, it's a good choice. Those organic seed oils are just as inflammatory to me. I mean, maybe not just as inflammatory, maybe the ones that are not organic or would be less inflammatory, but they are inflammatory as well.  

There's a term that I learned when I was at the Institute for Integrative Nutrition called crowding out. It's a great concept. It really helped me come up with my own personal definition of Clean(ish). You want to focus on high-quality Whole Foods, whether you're looking at the paradigm of plant-based or whether you're going to be paleo. Melanie, you know for sure that as paleo got popular, paleo ultra-processed foods became available, which is the opposite of what paleo was supposed to be.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I was going to say that exactly.  

Gin Stephens: Right. So, we can ruin anything in America or the world by ultra-processing it and it still quote fits the guidelines, but it doesn't at all. I've talked about this before as well when I did the low-fat diets of the 90s, I read the T-Factor Diet and the only takeaway that I took away from that was eat less fat. So, I started eating SpaghettiOs, and SnackWell's, and McDonald's had a fat free Apple muffin, you could drive through and get and you could have a coke with that and the whole thing was fat free. I mean, that is not what the T-Factor book said to do. I went back through it recently and reread it, and he wants you to eat whole foods that are low in fat. That's really what it is. No matter how you're choosing to eat, the more real foods you can fit in there, the better you're going to be, and over time, you'll figure out, what proportion of ultra-processed foods you can allow in there. Melanie, are you zero with ultra-processed foods, would you say? Do you eat any?  

Melanie Avalon: So, in my everyday day-to-day life, I don't have any. When I go through my low carb phases, that's when I'll do the MCT oil which is ultra-processed. Every now and then if I'm having like a crazy celebratory craving, I will get the low carb like keto cake mixes with the least amount of additives. So, they're typically like almond, or coconut flour and erythritol, or monk fruit or stevia. 

Gin Stephens: Okay. So, you're on the continuum. Really close to whole foods all the time, but you still allow the ultra-processed sometimes. And that's your definition of Clean(ish), right?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.  

Gin Stephens: But I on the other hand, I wouldn't choose something with monk fruit or erythritol, I would use real sugar or coconut palm sugar instead. That's because we each have a different what we want to do. That's the whole in the book, Clean(ish), which you need to order right now, because it's coming out January 4th, which is so very soon. In Clean(ish). It's all about figuring out your own personal definition of how that looks for you and what will you have and what will you not? I talk about in there that, I avoid these oils, I like to stick to organic things, but there's a mayonnaise I love that I grew up with and I don't eat mayonnaise very often. So, if I do need to eat mayonnaise or want to eat mayonnaise, I use this brand. It's probably GMO. I'm sure it is full of funky stuff, but I like it. But I don't need it all the time and I don't eat those oils day-to-day. So, it's just like I said, a matter of figuring out your perfect balance. My diet has more ultra-processed stuff in it than Melanie's, but it's way different than how it looked one, two, three, four, 10 years ago. So, it's a process.  

Like I said, before, that I ate out twice yesterday, I am feeling so puffy today and I know, it's because when I eat out, they use all these things, these inflammatory ingredients I don't use at home. So, I don't feel my best. When I get home tomorrow, I'm going to make something that has very high vegetable content, and I'm going to feel better. And it's just a matter of finding that balance that works for you. The more ultra-processed foods you can eliminate, but still enjoy your life, I really think the better.  

Melanie Avalon: To that point for me with eating out like I've just learned how to order where I'm equally happy with what I'm ordering but then I don't get any of the negative effects because I'm so specific in how I order. For some people, it's worth it to do that and for some people, it's not. So, it's really just a matter of like you said, Gin, what's worth it to you and what makes you happiest in the long run. Have you tried Primal Kitchen's, mayo?  

Gin Stephens: Yes, [laughs] and it's good. It's fine. If I were someone who ate mayonnaise every day or used it a lot, then, I would really think about the brand that I use. I would not want the brand of mayonnaise that I prefer. I'd like Duke's mayonnaise, and I grew up with it, and it is what mayonnaise is supposed to taste like. If I want something, it needs to be Duke's mayonnaise. But I don't eat mayonnaise every day. If I did, I would probably switch to Primal Kitchen. But it's a sometimes thing. So, having a little bit of this once a month or however often, I really only put it on if I'm making pimento cheese, which I don't do hardly ever. [laughs] Maybe at Christmas, I'll make my cranberry cheese or I'm having an egg sandwich which I have, I don't know, not even once a month. So, I'm going to eat it it's going to be Duke's, but I don't eat it very often. I don't think I explained what crowding out was. Did I explain what it was or did I just say it and then go down another rabbit hole? Crowding out is when you focus on high-quality Whole Foods as the main part, and then you crowd out, let's say, I wanted to have some homemade hummus with a few pita chips on the side, and then a big salad or something. So, I'm crowding out those chips. I'm still allowing them but I'm filling up on the good stuff first.  

Melanie Avalon: I love that. I will say speaking to the sweetener stuff, I reserve the right to change my opinion on this but the sweetener, I'm most interested by as far as I think it probably has-- 

Gin Stephens: All right, I'm predicting in my head what you might say, go ahead. 

Melanie: Oh, ooh, ooh, yay. I like this game. I think it probably has the most health benefits, minimum side effects. Allulose, all right, that's not I was going to say. What did you think is?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I was thinking you might would think blackstrap molasses was interesting because it's got so much mineral content.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, or manuka honey. Pay 100 bucks for a tablespoon.  

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Have you looked at blackstrap molasses at all? 

Melanie Avalon: I've seen vaguely at different times. I know, it has certain things in it nutrient wise. The allulose is really interesting because it's becoming more and more popular. I went and read all the studies that I could find on it, and it actually, it has a very beneficial effect on especially for like diabetics on just carb content in general. I'd have to revisit what I was saying but the mechanisms of action are really interesting. I think, I don't want to put up misinformation, but it's something like it either competes with carbs or it seems to have a pretty beneficial effect, and it tastes very similar to sugar, and it acts very similar to sugar.  

Gin Stephens: To be honest, for me, the reason I avoid all those others is, I just don't like the way they taste. I don't like any of them.  

Melanie Avalon: Have you tried allulose?  

Gin Stephens: I haven't tried that one. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's what it is. I think, it's actually a natural like sugar. That's what it is. It's a natural sugar found in certain fruits but we just literally can't metabolize it into carb energy. So, it's getting sugar without getting any sugar.  

Gin Stephens: Well, they said all about the sugar alcohols, all those things and I just don't like them.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. I agree. It's not a sugar alcohol. No, it's an [unintelligible [00:45:58].  

Gin Stephens: Those are the kind of things they said like, "Oh, it's natural, oh, it's still not like--" [laughs] I would love to try it but I just stick to coconut palm sugar is really good. It's got that brown sugar flavor. Have you ever had it?  

Melanie Avalon: Nope. Do I know a fun fact? Do you know the difference between sweet corn and corn?  

Gin Stephens: I do.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, like the variety?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh. I just learned this because I'm prepping to interview FARMER LEE JONES. Do you know who he is?  

Gin Stephens: I did not.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm so excited. He's like this epic regenerative agriculture farmer. He always wears overalls. That's what he's known for. I think, his farm pioneered microgreens, and they're all about creating really interesting varieties, and species, and using all the parts of the plant, and they're just really cool. But I learned in his book, which is epic. Okay, now, going on to some other tangents.  

Gin Stephens: I would probably love his book. What's it called?  

Melanie Avalon: So, his book is called The Chef's Garden: A Modern Guide to Common and Unusual Vegetables -With Recipes. And it came out in April. It is the most beautiful book and it reminds me--, Gin, it reminds me of you so much like what I was reading it. It's really like, "If Gin were to make a, well, actually--"  

Gin Stephens: All right, I'm going to order it right now.  

Melanie Avalon: It's like if both of us were to make this book because-- 

Gin Stephens: Tell me the name of it, again. 

Melanie Avalon: The Chef's Garden: A Modern Guide to Common and Unusual Vegetables -With Recipes. I got so happy because so his people asked to come on the show and I asked if they could send me like the book, and they sent it, and he signed it with a message to me. It made me so happy. So, I have a signed copy but it's a beautiful book and the reason it reminds me of you is the recipes are-- 

Gin Stephens: I just ordered it.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yay.  

Gin Stephens: It's coming.  

Melanie Avalon: Let me know what you think when you get it. You'll see why when you get it, but the recipes are all there are whole foods and stuff, but they also use sugar and they're not like--  

Gin Stephens: They're Clean(ish).  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's really an amazing, incredible book. Oh, but I read the whole thing front to cover, which I probably didn't need to do because you will learn so much about every vegetable ever known to mankind.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I can't wait, I'm so excited about that.  

Melanie Avalon: I feel like it should be required reading in a way because the amount of information I learned about, I think, I shared it, did I share about the potato?  

Gin Stephens: I don't think so.  

Melanie Avalon: The fun fact about the potato that I learned from this book?  

Gin Stephens: You said something about corn. First of all, tell me if I'm right. This is what I think like when I said yes, I need the difference and then, I was like, "Maybe, I don't" as I started second guessing myself. This is what I think the differences between sweet corn and corn. Most of the corn they grow is not sweet corn and that is to feed animals. Then, sweet corn is the corn we eat, am I right or is that wrong?  

Melanie Avalon: No.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. That's what I thought. There's something about most of the corn they grow is for animals.  

Melanie Avalon: Most of the corn that we grow is, I think to feed animals.  

Gin Stephens: It's not the kind of corn we eat. It's a different variety of corn. That's not the kind we eat and then the kind we eat I thought was the sweet corn. Okay, so what's the difference?  

Melanie Avalon: So, corn is a grain, sweet corn is a vegetable.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. What?  

Melanie Avalon: I know. It blew my mind.  

Gin Stephens: I don't know about that.  

Melanie Avalon: Do you want hear the potato fact that blew my mind? 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but I've got to look up this thing about corn and sweet corn.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: I'm telling you what Southern Living thinks, I'm right and he is not. I just looked up, Southern Living said, "The variety of corn we enjoy eating is called sweet corn, which does not grow nearly as tall as field corn. Sweet corn has a higher sugar content than cow corn and is picked while immature before the sugar has a chance to turn into starch." So, that is exactly what I thought. So, I don't really know what he's talking about. I'm going to have to read this book and figure it out. Sweet corn and field corn, it's different, but it's who's going to eat it. 

Melanie Avalon: Corn can be considered either a grain or vegetable based on when it is harvested.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. Well, that does make sense. Okay, but It's the variety of corn, sweet corn is a different variety than cow corn, right? So, they do let the kind that they're going to feed to the animals dry in the field, and I guess, that's the difference is when you harvest it. Whether you would consider it a vegetable or if you let it dry, then maybe it would be considered a grain. No, we were both right.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, maybe, that's what he meant like the corn that's fully mature and dry.  

Gin Stephens: We harvest it while it's still considered a vegetable. But if you let it sit in the field, but we don't do that with sweet corn. Sweet corn, we do not let it sit in the field and dry. We harvest it and then we eat it. But the other kind of corn is the kind that is for the animals and they do let it dry in the field. When I looked that up, it was because I was driving around and I'm like, "Why is all the corn looks so bad? Why is it all so dried up?" And then, I searched it, I was like, "Is something wrong with the corn this year?" Then, that's where I learned, "No, that's field corn. They're letting it dry for the animals."  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So much learned about corn. You're going to love this book. Here's the potato on. Are you ready?  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: So, the potato became this massive thing when they discovered-- I don't remember when it was like 1,700s. When they discovered that it had a high nutrition value in Europe, it was like a good food source, basically. And it was the royalty people that figure this out. So, they wanted to have it as like a food source for the European population. What did they do to make the people start all growing and eating potatoes?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: They did something. They use some reverse psychology to make the non-royalties like the peasants start growing corn. Do you have any guesses?  

Gin Stephens: Do you mean, potato?  

Melanie Avalon: Potato. Sorry. To start growing potato.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. You just have to tell me.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I am just going to tell you because I played this game at Christmas with my family and it took a long time for them to guess. So, I'm just going to tell you. They planted potatoes in guarded fields, so that the peasants would think the potatoes were like really special and expensive or something worth getting. So, then the peasant would steal the potatoes, and then they started planting themselves.  

Gin Stephens: Well, joke's on you royal people, because potatoes are amazing.  

Melanie Avalon: No, that's what they wanted to happen.  

Gin Stephens: But I know, I know. I know. But they're so good. They were like, thinking they're just for peasants, like wanting the peasants to eat them.  

Melanie Avalon: They wanted to spread potatoes as a food source in general. So, it was like, how do we-- 

Gin Stephens: But they liked them, too.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But it was like, "How do we make the peasants start doing this?" So, they made it seem like they were really exclusive.  

Gin Stephens: All they needed to do is just give them a potato and they would have been in. [laughs] He also talks all about the difference between like yams and sweet potatoes. 

Gin Stephens: I've done some reading about that, too. Does he say that yams and sweet potatoes are not the same thing and that yams are--? I think, yams might be in Africa?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, I knew they weren't the same thing but I would go down so many rabbit holes before this being like because I'd be like, "How to identify a yam or sweet potato at the supermarket?" He says, "If you're at a normal supermarket, so not--" 

Gin Stephens: It's the sweet potato.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's a sweet potato. The yams are only ethnic type. 

Gin Stephens: Super specialty. Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I can't wait for you to get this book.  

Gin Stephens: I apparently know a lot about food already.  

Melanie Avalon: You're going to love it. He has sections on every single vegetable, and then all the different varieties, and some of them, there'll be like 30 varieties. They'll talk about 30 varieties of tomatoes. It's mind blowing.  

Gin Stephens: And then, it'll make me want to have all those varieties, then, you go to the store and it's just the plain old boring ones.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. There is a farmer's market here in Atlanta called Buford's Farmers Market, and I've gone a few times, and I think, they have basically everything. It's crazy.  

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Melanie Avalon: That was a tangent. Shall we move on to our next question.  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, we have a question from Julie. The subject is: "How did I get here?" Julie says, "Hello, I started IF in August 2018, 49 years old, 5'2", 134 pounds. I've always been active, walking, yoga, and elliptical weights, workouts. My body mind and lifestyle adapted quickly to IF, a negative self-talk about weight and food finally subsided. I felt healthy free and in eight months, I was 123 pounds. Fast forward to yesterday having not stepped on the scale in months. Now, 51 years old and I weighed in at 136. I maintain clean fast, little alcohol, healthy eating, and 20:4. Please help. Is it age, cortisol? I have read/heard Gin talk about this in relation to COVID-19. ADF is not for me. So, I just try to keep positive, drink more water, almost a gallon daily, eat healthier, etc., but I don't understand how I got here. IF has worked for me and I'm committed to this way of life.  

My weight gain shows in the mirror, my clothes, and my mind. Negative self-talk has returned and I feel like I did pre-IF. Side note: I am in good health, and my doctor supports IF, and the lower weight range for my size. Blood test for my annual physicals were good, no health or thyroid issues. Do you have ideas on supplements or vitamins? Any support is welcome. Thank you." She wants to know if we reply by email or only respond on the podcast, do we give heads up to listeners. Grateful for your expertise and advice. And we do not usually reply via email. Occasionally, we do. Sometimes, emails come through and we just must address something. But normally, it's surprise on the podcast. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, Kate, you got to listen. Hopefully, you'll hear it. So, Julie. We can't answer the why. We can't tell you because you said, is it age? Could be. A lot of people gain weight as they go through menopause and you're right at that exact age for that. Cortisol? Could be. She's referring to a blog post that I put out in 2020 about the pandemic, and stress, and weight gain because all of a sudden, in 2020, people who were maintaining beautifully with intermittent fasting, and had been for a long time started having sudden weight gain. So, we talked about the stress that comes along with the pandemic and we're certainly not over that. [laughs] The stress continues as things continue to like, "Oh, here's a variant." And yeah, the media pumps us full of fear, and we're living in this constant Loki stress state, day after day. So, I would absolutely not minimize the effect of that and I would just say, so, you've gained-- It looks like, you lost 11 pounds initially, and now you're back up the 11+2 more. So, 13 pounds. So, you went down 11 and then you went up 13. So, I know, it's frustrating, but it really could be. It could be a combination of hormones, menopause, and stress that we're living through right now. So, we can't tell you what it is.  

And also, there are no magical supplements and vitamins that we could say, this is what you need. Boy, I wish there were. I'd make that supplement. [laughs] There was a magical supplement that could make us lose the weight, but there isn't. We've been down that road, all of us have, and you buy them and you saw them on the famous TV doctor who had the different episodes about this magical supplement. I bought everything that was on there. Never once did it make me lose magical weight. Sadly, I wish it had. But it could be so many things. I would really suggest, you might need to be someone who does way more frequently. That might be hard to hear, because I'm someone who doesn't weigh at all, and I haven't weighed for a long time. But if I knew that I had gained weight, and I couldn't figure out why, that scale was really good feedback for me when I was trying to lose weight. It really made a difference. And doing my weekly averaging or using something like happy scale, and really being able to see if you can find what's going on. I'm trying to see what she eats. Did she talk about her diet?  

Melanie Avalon: She just says-- I was actually going to talk about that. Yeah, she says, healthy. 

Gin Stephens: Healthy eating is such a big phrase. You know what, what you think is healthy eating, what I think is healthy eating, what Melanie thinks is healthy eating, what Paul Saladino thinks is healthy eating, there are all going to be different definitions. So, there may be some room to improve in your diet, especially, if you're choosing foods that don't work well for you. I could be eating in a way that fits a lot of definitions of healthy eating, but I'm eating too much of it or my body doesn't like those healthy things. My body would like something else. So, it's really time to tweak if-- You haven't done ZOE, yet? You might really enjoy that, ZOE test. I have a blog post about that ginstephens.com/zoe. You've probably heard me and Melanie talk about it. You also might need to switch it up a little bit.  

I know, you said, you like 20:4 with a four-hour eating window. You don't want to do ADF. You said, it's not for you. Although, I will say, the number of people who have said, I didn't think it was for me, and then I tried it, and guess what? I love it. There are a lot of people who say that. So, you might be surprised. But you could do a mild, not really ADF version, where one day, you have 23:1, and then, the next day you have 18:6 or something. You just keep alternating those. That's a very mild up down, up day pattern and see how that goes. That might be enough to get things going. But there're so many things you could try. Unfortunately, though, like I said before, we can't identify the why of the weight gain. We can just point out some suggestions or some ideas of what it might be.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I thought that was great. The healthy eating was actually what I was going to focus in on because I thought it was really interesting that the thing, she asked advice or to adjust the way it is vitamins or supplements, that would be the last, well, not the last thing, but that would not be high on my priority list for addressing weight loss. The foundational things, I believe for addressing weight loss are the actual food that you're eating and when you're eating it.  

Gin Stephens: And you know, that just shows how programmed we are to look for that in a bottle. Because we've been taught here's what you take, and then you will lose the weight, and that's not how it goes. I wish it did.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. So, I think the healthy eating, it's really easy to eat what may be healthy eating and maybe healthy eating for you, but healthy eating that will create weight gain. Because if you're eating certain foods that are "healthy," but are promoting fat storage, easily stored as fat and eaten higher than you are burning off every day, then, you're going to gain weight as a necessity of that.  

Gin Stephens: People often think that because we say, don't count calories that we are saying that calories don't count. Calories are a terrible way of measuring what's coming in, what's coming out. But neither Melanie nor I or really anybody that I really trust and follow thinks that you can really just overeat eat, eat, eat, eat, eat and not gain weight. If you eat too much, you will gain weight. So, I'm not saying that's what Julie's doing. But you can overeat in a four-hour window if you're eating like a lot of cheese for example. That's my own little-- [giggles] my nemesis of overeating is usually cheese and dairy products because I love them, but they're easy to overeat.  

Melanie Avalon: And that's an example we're looking at the type of food rather than the calories or even the amount can take care of itself in a way. Because if cheese is a greenlit food for you, you can most likely very easily overeat it and gain weight from it. Same with like nut butters and things like that compared to with, you know, you're like, "Oh, I can have unlimited protein." It's unlikely you're going to eat so much protein that you gain weight if anything. It has high thermogenic effect, if anything, you'd probably get full faster and probably lose weight and while also boosting your metabolism for example. So, I would focus in on that healthy eating, and look at what you're eating, and I would suggest, and I say this a lot, so, I feel like a broken record. But if you're not looking at your macros at all, there's a lot of magic that can happen. You don't have to count calories, you don't have to count even amounts, but if you play around with a macro approach that can work really, really well for a lot of people, and it doesn't have to be forever, but it can be just while you're losing this weight. So, that would be either low carb or low fat, and seeing how that works for you.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's a good suggestion.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast.com/episode245. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike and you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. All right. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I guess, I'll just put in one more plug for go ahead and pre-order Clean(ish) if you haven't already.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. 

Gin Stephens: It's coming out really soon and I'm excited. 

Melanie Avalon: Really soon when this airs.  

Gin Stephens: Yes. And even really soon. 

Melanie Avalon: Five or six days, like a week. Like a week after this. 

Gin Stephens: Even really soon like now. It's really soon just in general.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think, it's about a week after when this airs. Already well, we'll put a link to that in the show notes. And this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.  

Gin Stephens: All right, talk to you then. Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 244 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free electrolytes that are clean fast approved. Yep, free electrolytes with no additives, no fillers, clean fast approved, here's the details. So, as you guys know, I am a huge fan of Robb Wolf. He's basically my hero in life. He wrote The Paleo Solution, and he's the reason that I'm doing what I do today. He co-founded a company called LMNT. Because he realized just how important the role of electrolytes are in our health. And not just our health, but our performance, our wellbeing, and so much more. In fact, a lot of times, people struggle with issues on low-carb diets, keto, or fasting. They might be fatigued or have headaches, muscle cramps, basically a decline in mental and physical performance. That's because electrolytes are key for your body's hormonal and cellular function. And when we fast or do low-carb diets, they can often get out of whack. Most electrolyte supplements on the market are full of crazy additives, sweeteners, extra calories, and toxic ingredients that you just don't need in your body. That's where LMNT comes in. 

These supplements are formulated to give your body the exact electrolyte balance that you need including sodium, magnesium, and potassium because electrolytes are actually charged minerals that conduct electricity to power your nervous system. So, not only are they regulating your hydration status, they're actually determining how your cells conduct energy. If you want to learn all about the science of electrolytes as well as a lot of commonly asked questions like, can you just drink to thirst, is low sodium or high sodium dangerous, how should you supplement with electrolytes based on your diet and physical performance? Definitely, check out the interview I did with Robb Wolf on this podcast. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. I cannot tell you how many times I get listener feedback about people who have tried LMNT and told me that it basically was the thing that felt like it turned their body back on. It's honestly, truly incredible. And it's not just you guys, LMNT is actually the exclusive hydration partner to Team USA weightlifting, also dozens of NFL, NBA, and NHL teams. Use and recommend LMNT Navy SEALs, FBI Sniper teams, Marines, a lot of tech leaders, it is basically the supplement to get when it comes to electrolytes.  

Because LMNT hears so many amazing stories from customers every single day and often hear about how people get samples and then just get turned on and then want to tell all of their friends, LMNT decided to have an amazing VIP offer for our community. Yes, in the spirit of the holidays, LMNT is launching their saltiest offer ever for a limited time. Our community will be able to claim a free LMNT sampler pack. It only covers the cost of shipping. That's $5 for US customers. That's right. You'll get eight packets of LMNT, eight different flavors, the offer is limited one time per customer. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's d-r-i-n-k-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IF p-o-d-c-a-s-t. When you get that sampler pack by the way, the raw unflavored one is the one that is clean fast approved. All the other ones will be for your eating window. Again, to get your free LMNT sampler pack, just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. And we'll put all this information as well as that link to Robb Wolf's episode in the show notes. And one more thing before we jump in.  

Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.  

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show. 

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome, this is episode number 244 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great. How about you?  

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I have so many things.  

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I've just rolling along waiting for Clean(ish) to come out. On the date that we're recording this, we are less than a month away and on the day it comes out, we're less than a month away. So, if people have not preordered Clean(ish) yet, pretty soon, you'll just have to real order it because [giggles] it comes out January 4th. So, go ahead and preorder it now. You're going to want to have it.  

Melanie Avalon: So, when this comes out, it'll be just a few days before Christmas, which is very exciting. So, people can preorder almost order Clean(ish). I will be having a sale-- holiday sale right now, I think, in theory on my serrapeptase. And I think we're literally locking down the details right now. But I think we're going to do, if you were on the list, so, get on my email list. Hopefully, we can do this some sort of like refer a friend thing where if you refer the serrapeptase to a friend, you get a code, or a credit, or discount. Hopefully, that'll be in the works.  

Gin Stephens: It's just figuring out logistics for that?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But either way, there'll be a sale. So, that will all be at avalonx.us.  

Gin Stephens: Very cool. I'm actually running a Clean(ish) special for my DDD community. Well, if you want to join the Delay, Don't Deny community, we're having a Clean(ish) book study that starts on January 5th. So, with the promo code CLEANISH, you can save 15% on your Delay, Don't Deny community membership if you go to ginstephens.com/community. And we figured out the math of it. If you join with the promo code, CLEANISH which is 15% off a yearly membership, it costs less than $1 a week for a year. I mean, that is like, I don't know, that's just like buy different brand of butter one week and you've saved-- I don't know. [laughs] 

You know, it's a very, very small amount and you get the community, and we're doing the Clean(ish) book study which is included. So, ginstephens.com/community, promo code CLEANISH. That's just going to be good until we start the book study. So, get on it. It's very exciting. I'm loving the new community, by the way, since we moved it. It is so good like it works and I got an email today from the company. They just got a $25 million investment from some kind of investor. So, their goal is to be the best community platform out there and I'm very excited that we're on it. That's a big deal.  

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting.  

Gin Stephens: I know.  

Melanie Avalon: So many exciting things coming.  

Gin Stephens: So, people are still loving your serrapeptase, then? 

Melanie Avalon: As of this recording, people are just now starting to get it, so that the pictures are flooding in with people taking it, but it's really exciting. Yeah, people have already reported back. Some people have said that they've noticed differences already, and everybody is saying that they're not having any GI issues because serrapeptase is like the one thing that some people react to. And now, since, people are not reacting to mine, I really think it's probably the enteric coatings. Yeah, I don't know that it was necessarily the serrapeptase as much as serrapeptase requires special coatings normally to be absorbed. So, I think people might have been having issues with that aspect. But mine, we'd like it's good. [giggles] So, I'm so excited. We're developing my second supplement. I'm not going to say what it is, but I'm trying to decide which form to do, and I've been doing a lot of research, and I think, it's going to be surprising the conclusion I reach, so listeners can stay tuned.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I'll be so curious to hear.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes. Can I share a Christmas related story?  

Gin Stephens: No. [laughs] I'm just kidding. Of course, you can. Please, I love Christmas. I'm sitting here with my Christmas coffee mug with empty in it. I've got my little Christmas tree. So, yes.  

Melanie Avalon: For listeners. What is empty for those who are not familiar?  

Gin Stephens: It's hot water in a mug?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, two things, I went and picked out a Christmas tree with my dad, and I posted this on Instagram, but there was the most attractive Christmas tree man there like the man in charge of the Christmas trees, who like saws it and stuff. Oh, my goodness. And so, I posted about this through the video. And so, now, whenever I post anything, people ask about, am I going for Whole Foods guy or Christmas tree guy? My epiphany that I had-- I had this dumb blonde moment last night. Like this is definition dumb blonde, I can't even. So, when we were picking out the Christmas trees, I was thinking, "Hmm, people pick out smaller Christmas trees now." I was like, when I was little people picked-- Like the trees were bigger when I was little. I literally was thinking this seriously. And then, last night, I was decorating my Christmas tree with the lights, and I realized the reason I thought all the trees were smaller was because when I was little they looked bigger. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, well, yeah, that's true. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Literally, I felt like-- I probably for a week, I was like, "This is-- It's so weird." When I was little, people were buying bigger trees. But I guess with like COVID and--  

Gin Stephens: Well, this is how you'll really know that's true. If you ever go back to your elementary school-- You'll go back to your elementary school and everything looks so different because you thought it was all giant, now it looks small? Yeah. That's a really good indication of that. But you're right. If you ever look at how children draw adults, they draw them with like giant legs like little kids. If they draw like a little family, the adults tend to have really long legs that are way out of proportion to the rest of their body. But imagine you're a tiny child, you see mostly leg. See, it is fun having an elementary teacher in your podcast. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I frame some pictures that my niece-- my niece and nephew drew. And I'm looking at them. Yeah, they do have very long legs.  

Gin Stephens: I know. But that is because those kids are little and they look up and your legs look like they go on forever. It's just the proportion is wrong.  

Melanie Avalon: Anyway, that's so funny. It was when I was decorating the top of the tree last night and I was like, "Oh, this was probably the size of the tree." When I was little, it probably wasn't. So, that was a moment. One more thing I just want to share really briefly, I plugged this last time, so, I'm currently creating my epic gift guide email lists. So, hopefully, people got that. So, that's actually on, oh, I didn't mention the email list earlier, so two email lists from people to get on. If they want information about the serrapeptase, go to melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase, S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. Now, list will also have information about the new supplement that I'm creating. But if you want my general updates like my Biohacking Christmas guide list that I'm working on right now, that's at melanieavalon.com/emaillist. In any case, I'm writing it right now and I'm putting all the things that are great for gifts, and I want to tell you, I mentioned it last time, Gin. ReMarkable. Do you know about reMarkable?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. You told me about that. Yeah. Well, I think we talked about it last time.  

Melanie Avalon: But not on the show.  

Gin Stephens: I thought, we did. Because was it off the air?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I said, I had to tease it for listeners.  

Gin Stephens: That's right and then he told me. Okay.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes.  

Gin Stephens: Because I was like, "I swear to God, you told me that," but-- [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I did. Okay. You know when you get something and every time you use it, you're like, "Wow," Like, "Wow. this is changing my life." And then you're like, "How was I living without this?"  

Gin Stephens: Does it save the notes?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, it's like-- kind of like an iPad, but way skinnier. You write with this pen thing. It feels more like writing on paper. That's how they market it. So, it doesn't really feel like a screen. It doesn't feel like paper, but it feels good. You can pick if you're-- Oh, so many options like a pen, a pencil, a ballpoint pen, a marker, and depending on what you're using. It feels like you're using that thing. So, if it's a pencil, it will look like pencil lead. If you go harder, it makes it darker compared to a pen where it pretty much always looks the same. You can make different notebooks or sheets of notes, and you write your notes, you just click convert to text, and you email it to yourself, and you have everything typed up. I can't believe I was-- I mean, this is saving me hours.  

Gin Stephens: Does it have to convert to text because I like things that look like handwriting?  

Melanie Avalon: No.  

Gin Stephens: Because I would like to save handwritten notes because that just for me, that's how I remember things better. Tactile, because-- For example, I have a big notepad next-- on my desk, next to my computer, when I'm talking to somebody or doing something, I write stuff down. So, it's like all the stuff written down but it's like random stuff. Like, if you flip back, it's just a random, but it would be nice to have all that random stored somewhere. Because I'll be like, "I know. I wrote that on my notepad." But yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's actually even easier because so it automatically syncs, I think, with your eye clap. You can get it to sync with your computer. So, if you don't convert it to text, that's just automatically synced. So, I think, it is a drive on your computer.  

Gin Stephens: But it looks like, you see it, it's written on paper while you're writing it. It feels and looks like you're writing on paper, and then it uploads it automatically. That is definitely something for me to play with. I would probably like that. 

Melanie Avalon: And I was super impressed. I was playing with it at Thanksgiving and my mom started writing on it, and she was doing cursive, and I was like, "Oh, this is not going to figure out cursive." It figured it out perfectly when we converted it. Literally, listeners, my pattern of prepping for my other show, my Biohacking Podcast, every night for about three hours I read a book that I'm prepping and I take handwritten notes, and then the next day, I would retype them. So, now, every time I use it, I'm like, "I can't believe I was retyping this every day."  

Gin Stephens: Now, I will tell you something from a teacher point of view. Retyping it--  

Melanie Avalon: You are going to say you learn it more.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. [laughs] Like for me, what I was-- you know, if I really wouldn't, that would be like a way I would study is rewriting anyway. But if you don't need that extra step, then--  

Melanie Avalon: When I was retyping it, it was pretty mindless. Like I would watch stuff and I wouldn't really pay attention. It's when I reorganize the retyped information that I learn it.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. So, you're not using the typing as a learning. Okay.  

Melanie Avalon: No. Essentially, rewrite what I retyped. And that's when I--  

Gin Stephens: Because that rewriting part actually gets it into your brain better rather than just rereading your notes actually rewriting it, because it's going in your brain differently. Your processing it more. The more you process it, the more you're going to remember it.  

Melanie Avalon: It's when I reorganize the information that I really learn it.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's also why the teachers now that just write up notes and hand them out to the kids like, "Here are your notes that I wrote for you to have," they are missing the important step of the children taking notes and processing it. They are impacting learning. Anyway, I could talk about that a lot. [laughs] Taking the notes, and I also really believe writing them by hand is better than typing them as far as memory. That tactile writing versus click, click, click. It just gets it in there differently.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, probably. A fellow podcaster reached out to me and they were like, "Can you tell me your process? How many hours do you spend on each show?" I had never thought about that. Like, how many hours do I spend prepping? I really don't know, but I told them, I think, it's probably between like 10 and 50 hours or 40. I don't know. But now that I have reMarkable-- [laughs] take it down. I don't have a code. I've been begging them. I'm like, "Please give me a discount code." They said, "They might in the future." So, I don't know. If you guys get it, tell them I sent you. So, I'm really trying to convince them to give me.  

Gin Stephens: So, they'll be like, "Yeah, I'd to give you a code."  

Melanie Avalon: I want them to know that like, literally, I want everybody to have this and I want them to know how much I am sharing them. So, they'll maybe in the future, give me a code. 

Gin Stephens: Because we love it or you love it. I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds like I would love it. But that's the thing about the things we share. It's stuff we love and a lot of the things for example that I promote on Intermittent Fasting Stories that have ads for, it's because I've said to my ad team, "I would like to have like for example Green Chef because I use them. Please, get me Green Chef." And then, they did. Because I'm like, I really, really love them. Like, Daily Harvest. I'm like, "Please get me Daily Harvest," and then, they figured out how to. Because I was already using it and like for you, reMarkable, give me a code. [laughs] Because it's stuff we love, and we talk about it, and it feels better to promote something we love. I will never promote something I don't truly love.  

Melanie Avalon: Me neither. It's pretty much all I do. Just tell people what I love. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's really what we do. It's so much fun. I used to tell people what I loved all the time just as a random person. My elementary school is where it would be, you are like doing something about. But I'm like, "Ooh, let me tell you what I love. Let me tell you the best dry erase markers." And they were trying to be like, "Wow, these are better. We are mavens according to--"  

Melanie Avalon: So, maybe that's why we're podcasters.  

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah, according to, what's his name? Malcolm Gladwell, 'we are mavens.'  

Melanie Avalon: Interestingly, a really quick tangent. I just listened to an interview on Peter Attia with some guy who wrote a book, there's some book about like geneticism, and-- The Genetics of Talent.  

Gin Stephens: I mean, is it Malcolm Gladwell? Because he has a book about Talent, but it's not about necessarily genetics.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, no, this guy was deconstructing the 10,000 hours.  

Gin Stephens: Well, Malcolm Gladwell does talk about the 10,000 hours in his book.  

Melanie Avalon: Right. This guy was deconstructing the 10,000 hours.  

Gin Stephens: Like the opposite of that?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: I'm sure that I haven't seen that one. Yeah, Malcolm Gladwell is who actually introduced me to the idea of there being 10,000 hours. If you practice something for 10,000 hours, you will be a master of it. So, this guy's saying, no?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, Peter Attia interviewed David Epstein. The book they were talking about was The Sports Gene: Inside the Science of Extraordinary Athletic Performance. I've read a lot of Malcolm Gladwell stuff, and I'd read the 10,000 hours, and according to David Epstein, those studies are all incorrect, like, they were just wrong. He basically makes the case that it's not 10,000 hours, and it's genetic.  

Gin Stephens: I think that 10,000 hours might be an overly simple way of looking at it because for example, I could practice gymnastics for 10,000 hours and I would not be able to go to the Olympics. I would never be a great gymnast. I don't have the right genetics like you're saying. But if you do, like for example, Will-- my son, Will is an amazingly gifted trombone player, who wasn't going to do music when he went to Davidson Fine Arts, we'd already signed up for something else, and then we were picking Calla, we walked in the music room to pick up Cal, and they had like, the new students were looking at the equipment. Will picked up a trumpet, never had held a brass instrument before. It's really hard to make a sound on the mouthpiece of a trumpet and a trombone. I don't know if you've ever tried.  

Melanie Avalon: I think I tried once in middle school and I was like, "This is not for me." Oh, yeah, that's what it was. It's like, when you do the band class or like to see if you actually want to do band and you're like, "Nope." Oh, I was like, "No." [giggles]  

Gin Stephens: Well, Will picked it up, had never touched one, held it to his lips, and made a beautiful sound the first time. And the girl that we were actually picking up said, "Mr. Kennedy, come listen to this." I thought, she was a student. Will played it for Mr. Kennedy, and the guys like, "Sign up for band." [laughs] So, we went and switched everything, and we got to the-- I mean, Will was first year All-State Band. He also put in the hours. I really do think you have to have a combination of talent and the practice. I think, you can't do without both, right?  

Melanie Avalon: I think so. They were talking about that a lot in the interview. I'll put a link to in the show notes. It was David Epstein on Peter Attia. The Peter Attia episode was called How a range of experience leads to better performance in a highly specialized world? which is about one of David Epstein's other books. They were talking about that. Like the nuances and complexities of talent versus--  

Gin Stephens: Practice.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. You got to have a little bit of both. Like I said, there is no way-- you know, my mom was a dance teacher. I do not have a ballet body. My legs are not right, I'm not limber. I can get more limber. I know I could increase my-- But I'm never going to have the lines, the long legs. I'm not built that way. So, I could practice for 10 million hours. [laughs] I wasn't going to be a ballerina. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly.  

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Melanie Avalon: So, a lot of listeners will DM me on Instagram, and ask questions, and also on my Facebook group, IF Biohackers which everybody should join, and I try to answer everybody that I can, and this one listener reached out to me, we were first talking because she was playing around with her ZOE, the ZOE program that Gin and I've both done, which is where you eat muffins at certain macronutrients, and you were a CGM, and you see how your body processes carbs and fat, and you see about your gut microbiome. So, in any case, she had gotten back her ZOE results. Oh, and she said, I could say her name. I think she wanted me to say her name. Her name was Tracy.  

Gin Stephens: Hello, Tracy.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. And so, she has gotten back her ZOE results and her blood sugar was good. It was 74 but her fat control was 57, which was not so good. She'd been fasting for 20 hours, and she'd been doing keto, and she was talking to me because she was saying that, she's never satisfied and she's not losing weight, and that she was eating beef, fish, low carb, always under 40 grams in medium fat, and then etc. And so, I told her, I was like, "Have you tried upping your protein and have you possibly tried high protein, high carb, low fat," which I would have suggested anyways? But especially with her ZOE results, which were showing that she was good with carbs, not so good with fat, and I just thought this was such an interesting conversation, and I wanted to share it because of her experience, because people are so scared often to-- if they've been doing low carb to switch to high carb, low fat. They're just convinced they're going to gain weight. I'm just like I always have to explain that, if you're doing fasting and you're doing high carb, low fat and actually low fat and especially if you have a smaller eating window, which you know, she was doing a four-hour eating window, at the very least, it's unlikely you're going to gain weight, even if you gain like water weight.  

Gin Stephens: Like four pounds. Right. For me, the low carb effect was four pounds, I would start a low-carb diet, I would immediately drop four pounds and then I never lost another pound again ever no longer matter how long I did it. And then, the minute I introduced carbs again, backup four pounds. So, my glycogen storage water weight issue is four pounds. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. And the thing is, so, besides that four pounds it's unlikely you're going to actually gain weight if you're actually doing low fat. Because protein does not easily become fat, carbs actually don't easily become fat, and then if you're fasting everyday as well, it's unlikely. So, you can at least know that. Like at the very least, I'm probably not going to gain weight which is what most people's fear is. So, I was asking her about it, she said, "I haven't tried high carb, low fat. I'm kind of nervous. I usually stay under 40 grams of carbs and fat is usually 70 to 80 grams." 

I encouraged her more to try it, and she said, "I'm going to try. I'm nervous, but I'm definitely going to try. I appreciate you." And then, I explained a little bit what I just said to you. So, the first day she reported back, she said, "Yesterday, I had all protein with raspberries, and strawberries, and blueberries, I woke up feeling really good, I checked my ketones and my blood, and my ketones were 0.6, and my blood was 71." So, her blood sugar was 71, and she's still high ketones. So, she was very surprised and she said like, "How low is too low for fat? Not really eating anything with fat and other than my protein, do you think that's okay? I almost reached for the nuts but that's a slippery slope." And I told her that, if you're eating animal protein at least you're probably getting fat in there. So, I told her not to stress about the fat issue, especially, because she was eating chicken breast, 4% beef, and fish. And when-- then I told her that nuts, nuts, yes, nuts can be a slippery slope, and those would be adding some fat.  

So, then she kept doing it, and then she reported back again a few days later, and she said, "This is very interesting. I am on--" Oh, no. She says it was day two. She said, "I'm on day two with protein and fruit. I have more energy after fasting 20 or 21 hours than I've ever had before. My ketones are higher within the last two days than they have been in the last couple of weeks. The only thing is, I don't know how long I can keep eating the fruit and protein. But for now, I'm just going to enjoy it and I'm down a pound. It's probably all water, though."  

Gin Stephens: Well, I wouldn't say so, especially, if she's introduced more carbs. If she's down a pound and has reintroduced carbs that would not be water weight. That would be fat loss in my mind.  

Melanie Avalon: So, then she said-- the next day, she said, "Oh, my gosh, I'm down another pound, what?" And then, she reported back the next day, she said, "I'm so happy about this new way of eating. I'm actually even eating dates and I feel amazing, low fat for the win, I appreciate you." So, I didn't share that to say everybody needs to do low fat. I just found it so inspiring for people who maybe fasting, maybe doing one of the approaches, possibly low carb or keto. And if it's not working, it's okay to try something else and it might work.  

Gin Stephens: Here's what stands out to me. She followed the ZOE recommendations. See, if you read the science written by somebody who loves low carb or keto, they tell you all the reasons why it's how everyone should eat, and it's very convincing, and then you're like, "I'm going to do that," and then, like her, you're like, "You know what? I don't feel satisfied. I'm not really liking this. It's doesn't feel right." Well, her ZOE shows why. She has great blood sugar control, not as great fat control. So, she flip-flopped it, matched her ZOE recommendations. They're not just giving everybody the same ZOE recommendations, right? We're all getting personalized ones. She started eating based on that and she felt better.  

Now, I don't know that she has to just stick to fruit and protein. I would like to see her add in some other carbs. They give you lists, and scores, and dig into their app, and look into your score. You make-- craft a meal that has a high score using their app. That's why it's there. Don't feel scared. She's scared. We're scared to change our diet, right? If you feel like one way is like "best." She had gotten in her mind, "I got to be doing this low carb. That's what my body wants and needs." But number one, she wasn't satisfied. I was never satisfied on low carb. When she switched to something that fit her body better, she was satisfied and losing weight. Love it. 

Melanie Avalon: And I saw this exact same thing. I've seen it with a lot of people but there's another girl that follows me on Instagram. She was doing carnivore for the longest time. We were having a dialogue about, how I do lean protein and fruit. She was super, super nervous to try. But then, she finally did and it's just funny because it's always the exact same sentiments. It was the same thing that this girl said. She was saying like, "I have so much energy all of a sudden, like I'm full, I just feel better." I know you were saying like adding in other different types of carbs, but I do think there is a subset of people that do really well on a fruit and protein type approach. 

Gin Stephens: But you'll never know if you're going to do better with other ones unless you try. Just because you're doing well on fruit and protein, it doesn't mean you're not going to do-- I mean, keep in mind. The ZOE is also been looking at your gut microbiome because they're not just blindly making recommendations. It's based on your control and your gut microbiome. So, you can trust that they've got some scientifically based data from you that they're making these recommendations on. That's all I'm saying. Maybe not everyone's going to be great with the same things like corn, I don't know. But if it doesn't work for your gut, but that doesn't mean that it won't work for someone else's. 

Melanie Avalon: We know what's interesting about the ZOE thing because that was a really good point about how Tracy switch to what matched her ZOE. But what's interesting is that, my ZOE, I'm good with fat and not good with carbs, but what I do is pretty much high carb, low fat with fasting and that still does work for me. So, I think there's something to even if you're not good at processing carbs, I think, if one is going to process carbs and they're not good at processing carbs doing it in a lower fat context, it can be key for a lot of people.  

Gin Stephens: Well, see now for me, I'm going to just say, maybe, it's because you always have it with protein. If I have high carb, low fat in isolation, I feel awful.  

Melanie Avalon: Without protein or with protein?  

Gin Stephens: Or, without protein or fat. I really eat and I got to have some fat. 

Melanie Avalon: Without protein, I would be starving.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. If I don't have enough-- I feel better with mixed meals, honestly. I'm more likely to have-- and not all carbs are the same but as we know with bio-individuality, but certain-- if I just have really low fat, if I just ate certain fruits by themselves, if I just ate pineapple for example, I don't think I'd feel good.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I can't eat fruit by itself. I would be miserable. It has to be with a protein. The [unintelligible [00:36:22] people, which is basically where that idea really exists a lot, that high protein, high fruit, they like the fruit because it mitigates some of the stress response of eating just protein. One thing I love about ZOE though I'm very, very impressed with-- So, when you do it, you actually have a call with one of the people there. I have been sending my contact there. She's not special not special for me because I work with ZOE, this is the contact through just doing the ZOE program. I've been asking her so many questions about different foods in the app, and how they relate to certain scores, and I'm very impressed. She has checked on every single question that I've asked. Sometimes, it takes her over a week because she's asking the science team, but she always gets back to me. It's very, very impressive. [unintelligible [00:37:10]. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I'm impressed with them just in general. Oh, we are. Actually, I'm going to be having a webinar with Tim Spector in my community in January. I'm so excited. It's going to be just for people who are in the DDD community. They'll be able to join like-- 500 people will be able to join the Zoom call live, and then it'll be play but it'll only be in the community. But I've never actually talked to him person to person. So, I'm excited. You have, you've talked to him. He wrote the foreword for Clean(ish), which is thrilling because I love him. Anyway, so, I'm going to have face to face webinar with him for my community.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, congratulations on that by the way. It's so exciting.  

Gin Stephens: I know.  

Melanie Avalon: The foreword.  

Gin Stephens: I know. It really is. I'm just really grateful to have that connection with him because I've been a fan of his, before I ever wrote my first book or appeared on my first podcast. I was just a person and I read The Diet Myth and it blew my mind. And it really informed me, I learned so much. 

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I'm going to be a perpetual fan girl my entire life. I interact with these people, I'm just so excited. It's just very surreal, even though, I've had hundreds of guests.  

Gin Stephens: Well, we don't take it for granted, right? We know that they are special people and we're grateful for the opportunity to be able to talk to them.  

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting.  

Gin Stephens: And everyone's so nice. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know, I know, I know. I think on Friday I'm getting together with hopefully knock-on wood. Dr. Zielinski, who wrote that Essential Oil book. I didn't realize he lives in Atlanta. So, I'm getting together with him and his wife for dinner. I'm so excited.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I love that. It's so fun.  

Melanie Avalon: Already. So, we have a question from Josh. The subject is: 'Suggestions for my wife?' Josh says, "Hey, gals, I discovered your podcast a few months ago as I began intermittent fasting. Your information is very valuable and I have learned a great deal from you. My wife dabbled in fasting about a year or so ago, but struggled and backed out. Since, I have started shortly after Valentine's Day 2020, she decided to start again. However, she again is struggling and told me very recently that she gained five pounds in about four days of clean fasting and is taking a break from it once again. She's convinced that the only way she can lose weight is via calorie counting. Background, she is 30 years old. In the last year or so, she had a tubal ligation and prior to that tried numerous forms of contraceptives. She and I are pretty certain that her hormones are all over the board, mood swings, acne, heavy periods, constant stuffiness, etc. She recently started taking primrose and flax daily to begin correcting hormonal imbalances, but has stopped because of a suspected food intolerance that is currently being tested by Everlywell. The results should be here any day. I am unsure exactly of what she ate inside her window. I just know it was an eight-hour window. Her and I have tried talking about IF, but I can be abrasive and the talks don't go well. Any thoughts or advice you may have would be great as I just want her to feel better about her health and appearance. I know IF would help, if not eradicate the issues over time, but any advice would be better received from you gals."  

Gin Stephens: All right. So, Josh, I love that your wife is interested, she's intrigued with the idea of fasting, but struggling, and I'm glad that you want to help her. So, there are two things that pop out at me as so important. First of all, she gained five pounds in four days of a clean fast. It is 100% impossible to gain five pounds of fat in four days. I don't really say that, but I can't imagine [laughs] I know it's impossible for your wife, but what she was eating in eight hours. But I can't imagine a scenario where anyone would really be able to store five pounds of fat in four days, especially, if they've just started fasting. So, that's the good news.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Can I just comment really quick on that?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: That'd be really hard to do. Even if you literally took in all the calories needed for that, the body does not want to gain five pounds of fat that fast. 

Gin Stephens: No. But so, that's not what happened. She did not gain five pounds of fat. She is somebody it sounds like to me that is very scale focused, but fluctuations mess her up. So, she needs to learn get a long-term approach with that. But also, she had an eight-hour window, but she only did it for four days. So, here is what I want you to have her do. I want you to buy her a paperback copy of Fast. Feast. Repeat, not just because I want to sell her a book, but by the way, Melanie, this is super exciting. Fast. Feast. Repeat has been number one in weight loss for like, I don't know, a week or two now. Number one every day. I look at it, it's been number one. Like Obesity Code is not number one, and I love Jason Fung, I love The Obesity Code. But it's just so much fun to see Fast. Feast. Repeat number one. So, anyway, I really think she needs to read it herself. You can tell her all day long, but she's got to read it from me. That's the best way.  

Have her start with the 28-Day FAST Start chapter. Even though, that's not chapter one because it wouldn't flow well for that to be the first chapter, but have her start reading the 28-Day FAST Start chapter first, where she's going to weigh and measure before she starts, and then she's never going to weigh and measure again until day 29. Then her scale can go crazy and also, she won't see it. Also, you know, it's fine to start with an eight-hour window, especially, if you're choosing the fast start approach where you're easing in. But if weight loss is her goal, an eight-hour window may not be her weight loss sweet spot. A lot of guys can just boom, do an eight-hour window, boom, they lose the weight. Women are different. Our bodies have different needs, we may not need as much food as that. So, an eight-hour window is probably not her weight loss sweet spot. That doesn't mean it's not a great place to start and it doesn't mean that it won't be her sweet spot. I know women who especially, if they're more restrained eaters. They're used to eating slightly and that feels good to them. Maybe, an eight-hour window is perfect. For someone like me, I like to eat a hearty meal, eight-hour window was a disaster.  

She needs to also really understand the difference between low-calorie dieting and why intermittent fasting is so different in the body. That's all fully explained in the introductory chapters of Fast. Feast. Repeat. So, she can start with a 28-Day Fast Start, then go back to the beginning and read through it, and really understand how a low-calorie diet lets us down. Because very few of us, I mean, I'm not going to say it's impossible because that would be wrong. There are people who can long term do a low-calorie diet and through sheer will and determination and because they can stick to it and they keep their calories low enough, they can lose the weight and keep it off. But that's not what happens for most of us. We might be able to lose the weight, but then we rebound weight gain or there it's back again. We yo-yo. That's how it was for me. You can only white knuckle a low-calorie diet for so long for most of us. Before your body starts to rebel and then you're binging, and then you're overeating, then you're like, "This low-calorie diet, I hate it." Then, you regain the weight, you feel like you failed, but really, it was your body doing what it does when it thinks you're starving. So, all throughout Fast. Feast. Repeat I explain why fasting is different from those typical low-calorie diets.  

So, I really think that's the best thing. Let me explain it to her through the form of Fast. Feast. Repeat, have her start with a 28-Day Fast Start chapter, then go back through the part about low-calorie dieting and the Biggest Loser study and all of that, and the Minnesota Starvation experiment, then you really understand it and you start reading about it, you're like, "That's exactly how I felt when I did a low-calorie diet." And now, you understand why and you can like be relieved like, "Oh, I didn't fail. When I regained all the weight. It was my body." She also needs to really focus on the 'Scale, Schmale' chapter because if she is seeing the weight fluctuate up five pounds, I mean, as women our weight can go up five pounds because we're starting our period. But if those kinds of fluctuations make her give up, then she's got to have a long-term approach and in the Scale Schmale chapter I explain how to do that. Only her trend matters, not the day-to-day fluctuations. All right, that's all I got to say about that. I'm like Forrest Gump today.  

Hi, friends. Okay, we have thrilling news about Joovv. They have new devices and we have a discount. Yes, a discount, no longer a free gift, a discount. As you guys know, there are a few non-negotiables in my personal daily routine. I focus on what and when I eat every single day. And I also focus on my daily dose of healthy light through Joovv’s red light therapy devices. Guys, I use my Joovv all the time. Red light therapy is one of the most effective health modalities you can use in your home. I've personally seen so many health benefits, I find it incredible for regulating my circadian rhythm, helping my mood, boosting my thyroid, smoothing my skin and I've also used it on multiple occasions for targeted pain relief. Anyone who's familiar with red light therapy, pretty much knows that Joovv is the leading brand. They pioneered this technology and they were the first ones to isolate red and near-infrared light and make it accessible and affordable for in-home use.  

Since then, they've remained the most innovative, forward-thinking light therapy brands out there. And we're so excited because Joovv just launched their next generation of devices and they've made huge upgrades to what was already a really incredible system. Their new devices are sleeker, they're up to 25% lighter, and they all have the same power that we've come to expect from them. They've also intensified their coverage area, so you can stand as much as three times further away from the device and still get the recommended dosage. They've also upgraded the setup for the new devices with quick easy mounting options, so your new Joovv can fit just about any space. And the new devices include some pretty cool new features, things like their Recovery Plus mode, which utilizes pulsing technology to give yourselves an extra boost to recovery from a tough workout with rejuvenating near-infrared light.  

And this is my personal favorite update. So, for those of us who like to use Joovv devices to wind down at night, they now have an ambient mode that creates a calming lower intensity of light at night. Guys, I am so excited about this. Using this light at night is way healthier than bright blue light from all of our screens, and much more in line with your circadian rhythm. I was using my current Joovv devices at night anyway to light my whole apartment, so this new ambient mode is really going to be a gamechanger for me. Of course, you still get the world class customer service from your helpful, friendly Joovv team. So, if you're looking for a new Joovv device for your home, we have some very exciting news. You can go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST, you'll get an exclusive discount on Joovv’s newest devices. Yes, discount, I said it. That's J-O-O-V-V dotcom, forward slash, I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. Exclusions apply and this is for a limited time only. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show. 

Gin Stephens: Shall we go on to our next question. Did you have anything you wanted to add?  

Melanie Avalon: I did. I just wanted to comment that this kind of reminds me of what we were talking about earlier with Tracy. So, Tracy was so, so nervous about switching to high carb, low fat and it's kind of like with Josh's wife, she's super, super nervous about not calorie counting. So, I think, it requires a paradigm shift. If the person can understand and Josh rather than telling her this, you can just have her listen to us talking about it. But if the person can understand that, maybe that paradigm that they're holding about diet might not actually be necessarily true, there's a lot of potential freedom on the other side. When it comes to IF, again, like Gin was saying, eight hours might not have been short enough of an eating window for her. If she tries a shorter eating window, even if she's not calorie counting, it's harder to overeat in a shorter eating window calorie wise.  

So, she really doesn't have to be calorie counting with fasting if she can find the window that works for her and still be getting the benefits. If she does want another added "safety" to that eating window and that not calorie counting, things I was talking about earlier with like looking at the macros. You know, if she tries eating either low fat or low carb in that eating window as well that will make it even less likely that she will, at the very least gain weight changing to the fasting. And on top of that there's just so many potential benefits with the fasting, possibly, it can help with her hormones and also hoping that she figures out the food intolerances that she's having. But there's definitely, just goes back to like Tracy saying like, I sense a lot of fear with her, it might be unfounded. 

Gin Stephens: And also, four days is just really not enough time to judge fasting. That's why I had the 28-Day FAST Start and I'm so glad I thought of that putting that in the book. It was through all those years of guiding people through the Intermittent Fasting Support groups, and realizing that if people could just make it a certain amount of time, they would be okay. But it was getting them there. If you're expecting, you're going to lose weight in the first four days and then you don't, then you're like, "Well, this is crap. I'm not doing this." But if you go into it knowing, "Hey, I'm not even supposed to lose weight at the beginning and my body is adjusting, I'm going to learn how to fast first, then I could focus on weight loss." If you go in with that expectation, now, you've let your body adjust, you're much less likely to quit. I just saw that over time, so, I'm really glad I actually thought about how to put it in the book.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Shall we do one more question?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. This is from Erin and the subject is: 'Microbiome.' "Hello, Gin and Melanie, I've been listening to your podcast for about a year and I love it. I've learned so much and appreciate your layman's approach to some of the sciency topics. One area that I've learned a lot about thanks to you, ladies, is our microbiome. I've kind of become obsessed with gut health and digestion. My question for you is about prebiotics and probiotics. Can you get enough via food or need to take a supplement as well? Are there better kinds than others? Basically, what's the skinny on prebiotics and probiotics and what are your recommendations? Thank you for taking the time to review my question and keep up the good work, Erin." 

Melanie Avalon: All right, Erin. So, thank you so much for your question. So, I have a lot of thoughts on this, but I also can say them pretty simply, which is that I think the gut microbiome is so, so important. I think it's affecting so many things and I also think we know so very little about it. I think the more we learn about it, the more we realize that we don't know that much. It's shocking everything that the gut microbiome affects. So, we don't even realize like, for example, I was researching berberine recently. A supplement that you can take to lower your blood sugar. A lot people will say that that dihydroberberine form is more easily absorbed in the body and so I was researching it and actually, the way we absorb berberine normally is we take in berberine and then our gut microbiome actually converts berberine to dihydroberberine and then it goes across our cell wall and then it converts back into berberine, which is super crazy. The point of all that is that, the gut microbiome is doing so many things with how we process food and we don't even realize it. That said, as far as modulating our gut microbiome via probiotics and prebiotics, so, what are the differences?  

Probiotics are the actual microbiome strains, so the different gut bacteria. Prebiotics are the foods that feed the gut microbiome. So, they help you grow certain gut bacteria. There's a lot of debate out there about whether or not you can grow new bacteria if you don't already have that species. That's something, I actually, recently interviewed Dr. Neal Barnard and [giggles] it was a very interesting episode. We talked about that and I talked about it with Tim Spector as well. One of the things that Tim Spector pointed out was that, it's easier to actually wipe out your bad bacteria than it is to grow good bacteria, all of that to say, choosing between prebiotics and probiotics. So, probiotics, I just think it's like this swamp land where we don't know very much. I think try different probiotics, see how they make you feel, definitely give them some time if you are trying them. Some people might benefit from particularly low histamine producing probiotics because some probiotics are high in histamine or can produce histamine. So, you might want to look for a low histamine probiotic blend.  

We often work with BiOptimizers. They have a P3-OM probiotic. It's a single strain probiotic. I do really like that probiotic. But when it comes to probiotics, it's really just try once and see what they do for you. I actually really like fermented foods for helping introduce probiotic cultures to your gut. As far as prebiotics, it's ironic because in a way almost every food is a prebiotic. Because a prebiotic just means that it's feeding your gut bacteria, and pretty much everything we eat feeds some sort of bacteria in some way. But the concept of prebiotic is that it's beneficial. I personally am not a fan of like prebiotic supplements. I would rather eat the foods that will cultivate a certain gut microbiome. I just don't see any reason for it. It seems like we're trying to feed things that we might not even know if they're there. It's a refined form of food. I would just go to the foods.  

Gin Stephens: Eat food that's prebiotic. Yeah. Me, too.  

Melanie Avalon: So, do you have thoughts about that, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I just you know, in general, it's better to get it from food. Both the prebiotics and probiotics like Melanie said, with the fermented foods and everything, so, I don't take a prebiotic or a probiotic. I do eat fermented foods. When I think about it or when I can, I eat a high vegetable diet. I try to get a lot of different variety of vegetables in my diet. Tim Spector talks about this. I see him on Instagram him always mentioning, trying to have a wide variety of different plant foods. I think you're better off to try to eat, I don't know, 20 or 30, I can't remember. Some big number of different plant foods every week because then you're also going to get the phytochemicals that we're not even knowing what they are all in there. There're thousands of them in those foods. So, you're going to be getting so many benefits that you don't even know you're getting, but your body knows what to do with it. So, try to eat a variety of different foods and I'm talking about the vegetable foods and fruits. But I don't need as many fruits.  

Melanie Avalon: And then, it also might depend on your actual resident microbiome, how you tolerate those foods or not. Check out last week's episode because I think that's when we talked about the study that looked at people eating fermented foods versus a high-fiber diet. I'm pretty sure, Gin that we talked about it last week.  

Gin Stephens: I can't remember when that was, but it was just interesting if you've been eating the standard American diet long term, you're very likely to have a damaged gut lining because that's what happens with a standard American diet. So, you're going to have to take the time to rebuild it and that's the part that's tricky. So, people eat the foods, they're like, "These foods make me so sick or they don't work for my gut." Well, it's because your gut is damaged that the foods don't work. You've got to slowly rebuild your gut. I love, I can't pronounce the author's last name. It's Will something with the B, the book, Fiber Fueled, such a good book. I would read it-- Have you interviewed him, you have? Haven't you?  

Melanie Avalon: I have the contact for him. He was supposed to book and he never did.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I love his book. Fiber Fueled, great book. I talk about it in Clean(ish), but get Fiber Fueled and read it. Who was that guy we had on that was the gut guy before? Both Fiber Fueled and-- 

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Rochelle.  

Gin Stephens: Maybe. But both of them talk about how your gut can heal. That's the takeaway. Your gut can heal, and so, maybe grains don't work for you now, but you can heal. We're supposed to be able to tolerate a wide variety of foods in a healthy body. So, it's all about healing the body, but I really think Fiber Fueled is a great book. I would check that one out.  

Melanie Avalon: I need to read it. I was going to read it when I thought he was coming on the show. So, I'm going to reach back out to them today.  

Gin Stephens: Somebody, actually, today asked me if I'd ever heard of it. I'm like, "Not only have I heard of it, but I recommend it highly." He also is working with ZOE now. I read his book before he was associated with ZOE. I think he's on the board of directors or something. But when I saw that they had added him to the board of directors. I was like, "I already love him," and he's from Charleston anyway.  

Melanie Avalon: Nice. Okay, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. The show notes, which will have-- and full transcript and everything we talked about will be at ifpodcast.com/episode244. All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?  

Gin Stephens: No, but enjoyed it, and I'll talk to you next week.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Bye.  

Gin Stephens: Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 243 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi, friends. Winter aka sick season is upon us and we all know that this is the time of year to take extra care to protect ourselves from germs and bacteria. Of course, you can do everything right, wash your hands, keep your hands away from your face, carry around some hand sanitizer, but you still get sick. That's why you need to protect your body from the inside not just the out. And you can do that by building up your immune system with some high quality and high strength probiotics. That's why I'm really excited about P3-OM. P3-OM is a patented probiotic that might be the most effective probiotic ever developed. P3-OM fights bacteria and strengthens immunity. It's basically a germ fighting superhero. But it also helps digestion, it speeds up metabolism, and increases energy throughout the day, which is way more than you might have thought probiotics could do. And just when I thought P3-OM couldn't get any more powerful, I watched a video which you can see at p3om.com/ifpodcast of the probiotic literally breaking down a piece of steak. After I saw that, I was all in. You guys are going to be so amazed, too. Definitely, check out that video.  

Here's some more awesome news. You can get 10% off P3-OM right now by going to p3om.com/ifpodcast and typing in the coupon code IFPODCAST10. And here's the thing. If you order it and it's not everything you hoped for, BiOptimizer support team will give you all of your money back, no questions asked. So, if you want to protect yourself from whatever bug is floating around this year, and take your digestion to a new level, visit p3om.com/ifpodcast to get a 10% discount with the coupon code IFPODCAST10. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right now back to the show.  

Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often test high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.  

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show. 

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 243 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.  

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: I am doing great. I'm getting super excited. Well, the time, this comes out December 13th, we are just really close to the release of Clean(ish). 

Melanie Avalon: That's very exciting.  

Gin Stephens: It is and so, I have been flushing out my plans for what we're going to do. And we're going to have a book study in the Delay, Don't Deny Community.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, anybody who's listening, if you would like to take part in that book study, go ahead and preorder now. Even if you don't want to take part in the book study, I'd love you to preorder now. It comes out January 4th, you're going to want to have it. But if you go to ginstephens.com/community, you can join the community. And we're going to be doing the book study right there. Like we're going to be walking our way because Clean(ish) is not the kind of book you sit down and you read the whole book, and then you're like, "All right, I read that book." No, it's like you work through it. It was written by a teacher and it's very teachery. [laughs] So, it's like a step-by-step process. So, we're going to go through the chapters and take our time, we're also going to be having a book study on the Life Lessons Podcast starting January 5th. So, January 4th, preorder now, January 4th is when you'll get the book. January 5th, an episode of Life Lessons will come out, getting us kind of started on the book study, then we'll have every other episode will be about Clean(ish) topics. And then in the DDD community, ginstephens.com/community, we'll be actually having a community book study where we work our way through it and support each other as we become more cleanish.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that is very exciting.  

Gin Stephens: I have so much work to do. [laughs] But it's teacher work and I love it.  

Melanie Avalon: Did you finish recording the audiobook?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. I'm so glad. I love to talk, but I don't love to read my books out loud. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's a lot.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, recording a podcast, love it. Recording an audio book, would rather stab daggers into my eyes. Not really but you know what I mean.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it is. It's a lot.  

Gin Stephens: It's tedious. The word is tedious.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm very excited to read Clean(ish). I haven't read it yet.  

Gin Stephens: I know. I don't want to send you a copy till we have the good ones in. The ones that are out right now that people have the early reader copies. Like the moderators in my group got them and a few people got them, but there's a lot of formatting flaws in the early reader copy, because it was based on a very early version you know, how that works. And so, they didn't have the chapters formatted properly. So, you're reading and then there's something that looks like a heading, but it's really a new chapter title, and you can't really tell. We fixed all that. It's perfect now, but it's just weird in the early reader copies. I like it to be right when people see it.  

Melanie Avalon: I understand. I'm excited to read it.  

Gin Stephens: You need the good copy. So, anyway, January 4, it's coming out.  

Melanie Avalon: Although, depending on, I might listen to the audiobook actually. 

Gin Stephens: This is really a book it's-- I think its-- I know you love to listen to audiobooks. This is one, I mean, I'm not going to say no one get the audiobook. People will enjoy the audiobook, but I think you also want a paperback copy. This is one of those times when just the audio is not quite going to be enough if that makes sense. You want the paperback and you can supplement with the audiobook to listen to the chapter. I mean, it's totally up to you, but this is one you're going to want to look at.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so, I might do the audiobook and then--  

Gin Stephens: I'll make sure you get a copy of the final. You do not have to buy one. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Well, also, preorder to support. Let me write that down.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I appreciate that. That's really nice of you, preorder the audible then if you think you want that.  

Melanie Avalon: I will. Oh, perfect. Yeah, that's what I'll do.  

Gin Stephens: You can use an Audible credit. Oh, my God, Audible is sponsoring this episode.  

Melanie Avalon: Are they really?  

Gin Stephens: I didn't even know but yes. [laughs] There'll be an ad coming later everyone at some point.  

Melanie Avalon: Listen to the Audible ad.  

Gin Stephens: But yes. So, you can use one of your Audible credits for Clean(ish). But you also are going to want the paperback for Clean(ish) just-- Like I said, it's not like Fast. Feast. Repeat., I feel like a lot of people would like to have the paperback for that one, but the Audible is enough if you're a really good listener. But for Clean(ish), I think you're going to want both. Not just because I'm trying to sell you two books, I'm not. 

Melanie Avalon: I understand exactly what you're saying. Some books, just because of the formatting and the content, they just need that print version for the full experience.  

Gin Stephens: Yes, you got it. So, anyway, I'm very excited about the book coming out, and I really hope people love it. I want people to really understand the 'ish' part. Because I know that when people read it, they're going to be wanting to do everything 100%. But it's the 'ish' that makes it doable. Because we can't do everything on day one. I don't do everything. I'm ish, cleanish. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm very excited. So, for listeners, we'll put links in the show notes to all of those things. And the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode243.  

Gin Stephens: So, what's up with you? Tell me. 

Melanie Avalon: Can I tell you about my serrapeptase launch?  

Gin Stephens: I was knowing you would and excited about it. People haven't gotten it though, have they?  

Melanie Avalon: Some have.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, ooh, that's so exciting.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. We haven't talked since then. I was going to tell you but I was like, I'll just wait and tell you on the show. So, then, it's not repetitive. So, well, I have learned so much about so much [laughs] very short amount of time. So, as listeners are likely familiar, I released my first supplement, which is serrapeptase that we've been talking about for years on this show. Since, almost day one of the show, we've been talking about it. It's an enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. You take it in the fasted state, it goes into your bloodstream, and it breaks down potentially problematic proteins, so, it can help things like allergies, and inflammation, and fibroids, and it helps with wound healing, and it may reduce cholesterol, and it can breakdown amyloid plaque, it just does so many things.  

Gin Stephens: And I tell you, I actually saw something about it the other day in the scheme of like COVID.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, there is a study about that, that I am not allowed to talk about.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. Well, I just mentioned it, but I saw something about that because you know, you got to be really careful. You can't say you know anything about COVID but I saw it, and it made me think "Ooh, maybe I should take serrapeptase." 

Melanie Avalon: There's a really good study about serrapeptase and COVID. It's funny though, working with the company that I work with. We just want to be super careful. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. Can't make any claims about COVID. But people can read the study themselves.  

Melanie Avalon: I have an epic blog post about it on my website. So, if you go to melanieavalon.com/serrapeptasescience, that's my original blog post that I wrote with a deep dive into the science, and it does have that study referenced. I was doing a shorter, modified version for the supplement website, which is avalonx.us. And I was talking with my partner and he was like, "You got to take out everything COVID." So, I still had it in the references. He's like, "Nope, [laughs] take it out of there." He's like, "Nothing on the site." Yes, if you want the full version, go to the melanieavalon.com. But in any case, things I have learned, so, I really wanted to do a midnight release because midnight releases are so exciting. It reminds me of, what things come out at midnight? Like Taylor Swift's music or book releases, Harry Potter. So, I want to do it for the excitement, nothing to do with my sleep cycle being a night person. So, I got so many comments from people saying that, a midnight release was really only for the night people. Like that it was wasn't fair for morning people. So, that was a lesson learned that I don't know, to be wary of that.  

Then, so, the day of the release, we realized there was something wrong in the website that I had created. Again, avalonx.us. So, they decided-- the company I work with, MD Logic, they decided to rebuild my entire website themselves, which was insane and brilliant and I'm so grateful. But so, they rebuilt all of it to fix that error. It went live beyond my control around like 11 instead of midnight. Once it did people started ordering because I guess they were checking, so, I was like, "Oh, well, people have been upset that it's a midnight release, so I'll just go ahead and announce it since it's up." So, I sent an email and I announced that it was up early, but then people got mad because they had set their alarm clocks for midnight, and they were like, "Why did you release it early? You said it was midnight." So, I learned so much. 

Gin Stephens: Well, and also, some things are out of our control because when you're releasing something new, it sometimes just happens. You just don't know how long it's going to take.  

Melanie Avalon: The site was going to go up at midnight, but then it went up early. I was trying to make people happy because I received feedback.  

Gin Stephens: I know. We try so hard.  

Melanie Avalon: I just want to make everybody happy. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: Impossible. I've learned impossible through moving the community, we had the first one, the DDD social network, and the platform ended up being unacceptable. So, instead of using the whole--, we spent tens of thousands of dollars on that platform. So, for it to be unacceptable, we just abandoned it because that was not okay for the community. So, we lost money on that part of it, but anyway, we moved everybody. But no matter how hard we tried to move everybody in a way that made them all happy, there were people mad at me. And I'm like, "I just want you to know, I'm doing the best I can." Because the alternative would have been just to stay there and suffer through it being awful till the year was up but we didn't want to do that. So, no solution was perfect. That's what I'm trying to say with that story. No solution is perfect, you're just do the best you can, and if people get mad, and can't roll with it, there's nothing you can do. 

Melanie Avalon: The reason people were so eager was, I was pitching that it would probably sell out which I-- Oh, it was such a moment because I just really had no idea like would it sell out, but I thought it might, but I just didn't know how it was going to go, and it went so well. [giggles] So, it sold out-- the first run, sold out in less than eight hours. So, there was a big spike at around midnight, and then there was a big spike in the morning, but that's what I'm telling people.  

Gin Stephens: Okay, well, so the people, when I went early, it's not like people missed it.  

Melanie Avalon: But the first 300 bottles were super discounted. So, I think, yeah. 

Gin Stephens: Well, those super fans who were checking early, [laughs] they got lucky. That's what I think. Sorry, if the super fans just-- [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: So, there was about two hours where it said it was out of stock on the website, and that's when they were-- at MD Logic, they were trying to figure out if they could place another order. They were trying to forget the logistics of the second run. So, there was like a two-hour period where people were checking and thought that it was sold out and that they had missed it. So, I had to do like damage control, and then two hours later it was available for the second run to preorder. I realized, like, in my messaging, I said, "You can now preorder the second run, which would ship in December," but people thought that they couldn't order until December. I've just learned a lot about clarity. But in any case, the takeaway is that, it went so well, and you can order it now. You can preorder it. The people who have ordered, although, when this comes out, this will be a little bit older news, but people who ordered that first run, by the time this comes out there's should have shipped. They probably will have received it. And then people who are ordering from the current run assuming, it's not sold out. That is probably shipping around mid-December. So, I think when this, because this episode comes out mid-December, right?  

Gin Stephens: Yep, December 13th.  

Melanie Avalon: So, it should be shipping around that time. People listening right now, their orders should be shipping if they had already ordered at the second run. I'm just so grateful like I've just been walking around in the state of happiness, and gratitude, and excitement for a few reasons, oh, my God, I will start crying. Okay. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: I get it. Look, when I was reading a section of Clean(ish) out loud where I talked about Cal, and his wife Kate, I started crying while I was reading the audiobook. I'm like, "I've got to read that again because now I'm crying." [laughs] We get emotional about stuff. I get it.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm just so grateful because this is something I've been wanting to do for so long, and the guy I work with, Scott at the company, we just really, really are on the same page, and understand each other, and it's just like the most beautiful power team. I'm so happy about how the product turned out, the serrapeptase. I get no GI distress with it, which is something that a lot of people experience. I've been noticing so many benefits from it. It's just really, really incredible, and amazing, and I'm so excited that everybody ordered, and that it sold out so fast, because I was so nervous about-- I really wanted to like, I guess, "perform” because I was working with this company, and I really wanted them to see that my audience really was interested.  

Gin Stephens: Well, because imagine if you had released it, and put it out, and you sold like five bottles.  

Melanie Avalon: My brother texted the next morning and was like, "How did it go?" I was like, "We sold out in less than eight hours." Then my mom was like, "Oh, good." She was like, "I was super worried that nobody was going to buy it." I was like, "Mom?" [laughs] She said, she said-- she said when my brother texted that she was like, "Oh, no. Don't ask that." But now I'm just really thrilled because so that serrapeptase now should be available ongoing. You shouldn't have to worry about it going out of stock, because hopefully we'll be on top of it. Now, we're developing my second one. I know probably the next five ones that I want to do because now, all the supplements I'm currently taking I want to make my own version because then I can really feel good about all of it, and then, I can have something I can really recommend to people. So, I'm really excited. So, the second one, I'm not going to say what it is, but I will say, it's something that we talked about a lot on this podcast, and people asked me for my recommended brand a lot.  

Gin Stephens: All right, does it start with M?  

Melanie Avalon: No.  

Gin Stephens: Okay, well then, I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: I'll tell you off air.  

Gin Stephens: So, yes.  

Melanie Avalon: So, that was a long story, but I'm just so excited and listeners I would love, love, love, love to hear your experience with my brand specifically. And so, you can get it at avalonx.us. Some people have received their bottles and they're posting pictures of themselves with the bottles in the group and it makes me so happy.  

Gin Stephens: I know. That's how I feel when someone's holding Clean(ish). Like someone that's gotten the early reader copies, one of my moderators, or it just makes me really excited to see.  

Melanie Avalon: It's exciting to see, it's like your dreams manifested in a physical form.  

Gin Stephens: It's right because it comes out of your head, and then you make it happen, and then, yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: The bottle like holding it like it's everything I could want. The way it looks, the actual product, I'm very excited.  

Gin Stephens: I'm so excited. Well, job well done.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. You, too.  

Gin Stephens: Thank you.  

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Melanie Avalon: Long intro. Shall we jump into some questions?  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, the first question actually relates to what we were just talking about and I thought it would might be something good to clarify, especially, after telling you guys my whole story about my supplement launch. So, this comes from Bianca and the subject is: "What supplements to take! And Bianca says, "Hi. I always love hearing the information you ladies have to share. Sometimes I hear about new health trends, but I never jump on it until you guys have done your research and share it on the show. So, thank you for being a reliable source of information that I can trust to objectively evaluate all the new health packs. So, my question is this. What supplements do I need to take if I am generally healthy? I know, Melanie, you are obsessed with so many things, lol. But what are the supplements that I absolutely need to take? Do you ever suggest a multivitamin? I am 45 years old and I have to lose 30 to 40 pounds. I do take meds for an underactive thyroid. I could always use more energy or a mood booster, especially, once a month when I get my period. I don't get reflux or constipated." I just want to say, "I'm very jealous of you, Bianca."  

She says, "I don't get brain fog or anxious. My knees hurt a little from running but it seems like normal aging. I currently take ginkgo biloba, fish oil, and vitamin C. After binge hearing your shows, I suddenly feel the need to drink apple cider vinegar, chlorophyll, magnesium shots, serrapeptase?" And then she says, "(silkworm stuff and CBD oil)." Should I-- "For someone like me that has no specific complaints or ailments, would we need to supplement anything to our diet?" Gin, what do you take on a regular basis? Since you and I are closer in age perhaps you could share with me what you'd like to take. I also want to say, how much I appreciate the two different experiences.  

Gin Stephens: All right, well, I'm glad to answer this. But first I want to say one thing. I have realized that supplements are incredibly personal. What I take might not be right for you. Here's an example of that. One of my friends was taking some supplements that she said that changed her life. It's actually my friend, Sheri that cohosts Life Lessons with me. I'm like, "Oh, well I need to take that supplement that changed your life." So, I started taking it. I can't remember what it was. This is a couple of years ago maybe and I started getting this crazy anxiety and weirdness, and I'm like, "Could this be the supplements, I looked it up?" Yes. [laughs] She takes it. She has like a different genetic profile than me and it works for someone with her, whatever genetic, something or other that I don't have. So, I don't need that supplement. If you don't need it and you take it, it can lead anxiety. So, there are very few supplements that I would consider to be universal. Like serrapeptase for example, I took it for a while for a targeted reason. I had fibroids, I do think that it helped. I do think it has broad benefits for a lot of people, but I'm very keep it simple when it comes to supplements.  

I take magnesium every single day and I have for years. It helps me to sleep. I really notice a difference if I forget it. I did change my brand over the years. Right now, I'm doing BiOptimizers, and I think the brand I used to take changed their formulation because it stopped being effective for me. I think I wasn't absorbing it, whatever. So, it's really important to find a brand or something that works really well for you. So, I take that. As far as multivitamins go, there's a brand called Ritual that sponsors IF Stories and I do take that one, ritual.com/ifstories. It's really minimalist and clean. So, as far as like vitamins go, they really are transparent with their ingredients. As far as other supplements like as needed basis, like I had a little touch of a flu a few weeks ago. So, I supplemented with things that are known to boost the immune system, zinc, quercetin, C and D. But I just did that for that targeted period of time where I needed a little more immune system support, I felt. So, that's really it.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, we are on very similar pages, and I think it's funny, because I think people might assume that I am about all the supplements all the time, and I'm really not. I'm actually pretty minimalist myself with supplements. Everything that you said, Gin about us being unique, and I'm all about the actually the minimal effective dose, because I went through a period where I was taking all the supplements and I got really overwhelmed with that. It's really hard to know what's doing what. So, I'm all about being very specific. There's a word being very, just puts the word.  

Gin Stephens: Intentional?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, intentional with what you're taking. So, the serrapeptase for example, I think, it has just such broad ranging benefits kind of like Gin mentioned that I think, most people can benefit from it in some capacity. So, it's one of the reasons I wanted to make it for my first one is, it is one of the only supplements that I actually have been taking consistently every day for years.  

Gin Stephens: And honestly, one reason I stopped was because I got spooked about things on Amazon, and not sure what brand to buy, and I was like, "Well, never mind." [laughs] I might would take a Melanie Avalon brand version.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. After developing it now, people were asking in the meantime until yours is available, which one should I order and I was like, "Honestly, I can't recommend any of them now." 

Gin Stephens: Once you understand, yeah, yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: So, that's an example of one that I think most people can probably benefit from it in some capacity. Beyond that, so, Gin mentioned vitamin D, that's one where I think people really should be getting their blood levels tested for vitamin D, because I think, it's super important for so many things, and for immunity, and a lot of people are low. 

Gin Stephens: But you can't know unless you get it tested and that really helps you dial in what you need.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. So, I love InsideTracker because they always test vitamin D, but your conventional doctor can run it as well. But you probably have to ask because most doctors aren't just randomly testing it. I think when it comes to things like digestive enzymes and HCl, that would be case by case basis of, do you have digestive issues and do those help you? They helped me so much but if you don't have digestive issues, if you're not experiencing that, I wouldn't worry about it and it sounds like Bianca, she doesn't experience digestive-- Well she talks about not getting reflux or constipated.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't take any kind of digestive support stuff, zero.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm jealous. It's a gamechanger for me taking the digestive support. Then, so, vitamin C, I actually don't recommend that, especially, if you're taking it while fasted. I don't recommend it as like a daily supplement while fasted.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. That's also important. Supplements, not all supplements are great during the fast but some are. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think there are studies on this taking vitamin C can actually be counterproductive for your body's endogenous production of antioxidants. So, I don't really recommend taking vitamin C is like a thing. But if you get sick for example like Gin said that might be a case where you'd want to high dose vitamin C. Fish oil, I'm perpetually on the fence about. I go back and forth. I'll listen to one person being like never take fish oil and then I'll listen to Rhonda Patrick doing an episode, I'm like, "Oh, everybody should be taking fish oil." But I know one thing. I think, most of them are often rancid. 

Gin Stephens: Right. Quality is so-- The problem with supplements, that's why I'm so skeptical of like, I have a section in Clean(ish) where I talk about, like she said, she takes ginkgo biloba, and I have a whole section on Clean(ish) where I talk about a study they did where it like, wasn't even in there. I mean, it was crazy.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's crazy. Actually, speaking of, because I've been getting questions about what testing we do. So, for my serrapeptase for example, it's tested for four different things, pre and post production. So, when they're creating the supplement they test it for toxins, for purity, for active ingredient, for-- It's on the website. I can put a link to in the show notes. But basically, that it is what it says it is that it is effective, and then they do a separate test just on the serrapeptase because they have to do an enzyme test to make sure the enzyme is active, and then they do a batch test, which is where with a finished product, they randomly pull jars and tests that it's still everything that it says it is. 

Gin Stephens: Like quality control-- random quality control stuff, that makes sense.  

Melanie Avalon: So, I think that is so important and minor tested for heavy metals and mold which is so, so huge to me. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you don't want to be putting that in. [laughs] We want to be taken out the bad stuff not putting more bad in. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I just think this is all so, so important. The fish oil for example, I shudder thinking about it now, like we often order that off of Amazon, and Amazon, especially, during the summer are really, really hot warehouses. I just would not order fish oil off of Amazon. It is probably been sitting, especially, in the hot months.  

Gin Stephens: Well, then you have to look at, that's not the only place but the warehouse or a truck. I mean, it's hard to know about anything. Honestly, who knows how it got to the store. So, when you really start thinking about supplements, you start going down the rabbit hole of-- That's why I take so few. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. And even serrapeptase is temperature sensitive. So, that's another case where you'd want to be buying direct from somewhere where it's been climate controlled. So, if I ever do a fish oil in the future, I think, it would need to be a little bit down the line because I think it's going to be super expensive. Because I want to do all the criteria to keep it cold shipping and all of that. That's probably going to be like down the line if I do a fish oil. But I'm just looking at the other things she said. Interesting that from the show, she thinks she should drink apple cider vinegar. I guess we talked about taking it like before eating maybe. Chlorophyll, I do take chlorophyll. It's good for iron levels, but I take that with my food. Magnesium, Gin said, she benefits from, CBD is something that has helped me so much, but I realize that people respond differently to CBD.  

Gin Stephens: They really do. Yeah, one of my family members responds great to it like amazing. It helps with mood and for me though, it made me-- I took it for a while because it feels [unintelligible [00:32:55] and I took it and I tried to find my right dose but basically, I never found a dose that made me feel like better, different like it was doing anything. Does that make sense? So, I stopped taking it. But I believe in it because I've seen it make a difference. So, I'm not like anti-CBD. I think it is powerful and amazing. But you need to meet with the people and they will talk you through it. If there's a right dose for you, they'll help you find it. But the answer might be, you don't need that.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. For me, it's a game changer. Like a game changer. It makes me sad because they run whitelisted ads through my Facebook account. So, basically like you might be on Facebook, and you'll see a sponsored ad for Feals from my account. I mean, CBD is such a touchy topic. So, a lot of comments are very abrasive and intense and I'm like, "I shouldn't be like I'm not making this up. Like this supplement changes my life."  

Gin Stephens: No, I've really seen it make an amazing difference in other people. I've seen it firsthand with my eyes in my house. But for me, the magnesium helps me sleep, and I don't have anything that I need help with that. I don't know. Whatever it does in your brain, my brain is okay with. I've got other things in my brain that might need you know like the magnesium, but we're also different. I really think it's the thing that, like now, I pretty much sleep through the night all the time. I think it took a while of finding my dose and doing it consistently, but I take it every single night, and I think it has modulated my entire cannabinoid system. 

Gin Stephens: That's good. You know what changed mine is changing my magnesium. Honestly, I am sleeping great, and I am even drinking a little bit more alcohol, and it's making a huge difference. It's not making me wake up. After if I have like a glass of wine, I don't instantly wake up not able to sleep like I had been for so long. It could, maybe, my body is calmed down after going through menopause, that could be it, because some people told me they had trouble with one. While they were going through menopause then it got better, but I really think it's changing my magnesium that made a difference. But it really, once you find what works for your body, huge difference.  

Melanie Avalon: We do have a discount for Feals which is I think one of our best offers and it's feals.com/ifpodcast. It changes around, but it's usually 40% to 50% off somewhere in there. 

Gin Stephens: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: But like Gin said, like I've said, it's really just a matter of individuality. Like another one I take every single day is berberine. I've seen wearing a CGM that that really does really nice things for my blood sugar levels. It actually really helps my digestive issues as well, which I didn't anticipate. But that's something that I just really like in my proverbial and real cabinet. That'd be something where I think if you've done a CGM, or you've taken blood tests, and you've seen high blood sugar levels, that might be something to play with. But yeah, we could say a lot more about supplements. But something else I will suggest is not trying multiple supplements at one time, because then like new ones--  

Gin Stephens: Don't change everything up. Think of it as a one at a time tweaking kind of thing. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Oh, another one I think a lot of people can benefit from in general is NR and NMN, which are the NAD precursors. But that's another one that I really want to do one, but it's also going to need to be down the line because that is another supplement that needs to be cold, and it's light sensitive, and they just don't really talk about that. So, that's something that I would want to-- cold ship for example. I've so many plans. But yeah, hopefully, that was helpful.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think it was. There's just so much confusion about supplements. And it's because again, we're all different. So, when my friend said, "Take this one, it's--" or she said, "I take this one." She didn't tell me to take it. She said, "I take this, it's changed my life." I'm like, "Well, I'm going to change my life, and it made me worse and bad and awful." Then I was like, "Well, I've never going to just take something because someone said they take it again."  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Another one I do think a lot of people might benefit from is depending on what their issues are as progesterone. I'll be airing an episode, I think, in January with Dr. Michael Platt, and he pretty much thinks that progesterone can fix all ailments for everybody all the time, which I don't know if it's that intense, but I personally have been taking it, and it's radically helped my sister, got rid of her PMDD. I can put a link in the show notes. I have a discount code for them.  

Gin Stephens: That's another one, I would recommend having working with a doctor who's skilled in that and testing your levels. Dr. Anna Cabeca always says, "Test, don't guess" [laughs] which I like. Just because you don't know what you need.  

Melanie Avalon: He makes the argument that with progesterone, there's not really a issue with-- 

Gin Stephens: Taking too much.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that like, basically, if you have any sort of issue that might be related which really, he thinks is almost everything. You can start taking it and you'll see pretty fast if it's helping.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, well, that's interesting. So, he has his own kind of it.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, and it's amazing.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, well, send me that info. I might look at that.  

Melanie Avalon: I bumped up his episode earlier than it should have been released just because I want to tell everybody about it. And we just got the discount code. So, I will put a link in the show notes, too. I think it's like a 10% off code. Yeah, that's the one. I said this multiple times, but my sister has had PMDD for 10 years, and they got rid of it in a week.  

Gin Stephens: All right, shall we move on to our next question from Paula?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, and she has a few different questions.  

Gin Stephens: She does. Paula says, "Hello, again. Thank you" and more random questions. You want just take them one at a time? 

Melanie Avalon: Sure.  

Gin Stephens: She says, "Gin and Melanie, thank you for answering my questions on the podcast. You're my Monday workout buddies and I am a fan." I love that. People will often tell me they love to walk and listen to the podcast or my other podcast. I'm sure people tell you that, too. I just I love it. It's like we're regular and we're in their head.