Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 179 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com.

Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour or yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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All right, now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 179 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great. It's been so long since I've talked to you.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: Listeners, don't know when these come out a week apart, but we've recorded the last one yesterday. So, it's been one day. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Little quick turnaround here. So, anything new since yesterday?

Gin Stephens: No, not a thing. Everything is the same.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. How about you anything new since yesterday?

Melanie Avalon: Not really. Except I just told you I'm slowly bringing wine back into my life, and that feels really nice. Dry Farm Wines, obviously.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I would never be able to drink any other kind. I've just-- yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I will say, listeners, I haven't had wine in probably, like a year and a half. I'd been having a sip, literally a sip of Dry Farm Wines every single night, but I hadn't really actually had wine like a year and a half.

Gin Stephens: Like a glass of wine.

Melanie Avalon: Like a glass, mm-hmmm.

Gin Stephens: That's so funny. I can't imagine having one sip of wine. What was the reason for having one sip?

Melanie Avalon: It just felt like a nice little routine, little supplement. You know how people take a shot of apple cider vinegar before eating? I don't know, I feel like it kind of had that effect. I think was more mental rather than anything else. But I will say, past few nights I've had like two glasses both nights of Dry Farm Wines and I'm fine. Dry Farm Wines for the win. Yeah, for listeners, if you haven't tried it, if you want to try hangover-free experiences with wine, definitely try it. Our link for them is dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, and that gets you a bottle for a penny.

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I'm glad you're figuring out how to work it back in and enjoying it and feeling good.

Melanie Avalon: Baby steps. Now, I’ve just got to get the fruit back.

Gin Stephens: Get that fruit back in. We're having hamburgers for dinner and I'm so excited. [unintelligible [00:06:38] anybody's interested.

Melanie Avalon: I like hamburgers without the bun.

Gin Stephens: It's going to have a bun.

Melanie Avalon: And not cooked. So, just hamburger meat.

Gin Stephens: It's a Green Chef meal. I like Green Chef.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they sponsored our podcast way back when.

Melanie Avalon: They did, back in the day.

Gin Stephens: Back in the day, but yeah, this is a Green Chef meal and so it's got zucchini, like oven fries on the side, so I'm very excited. I love a good cheeseburger with the bun and the cheese and the meat.

Melanie Avalon: I love the good raw ground beef.

Gin Stephens: No, thank you. No, no, no.

Melanie Avalon: It's so good. I will literally eat it that way.

Gin Stephens: Okay, not me. I mean I like a medium rare hamburger. So, I guess that would be for some people, but anyway, good times. What will you have for dinner tonight? Do you know?

Melanie Avalon: That's a good question. Probably shrimp or turkey or egg whites and cucumbers and maybe try to bring in some fruit. Maybe.

Gin Stephens: So, why the egg whites and not the egg yolks? I'm curious.

Melanie Avalon: Because I'm trying to do low fat, high carb.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Trying to get back to that.

Gin Stephens: All right, how are you feeling with that? Good?

Melanie Avalon: Actually, I feel demotivated because I keep trying to bring it back in and I get hypoglycemia symptoms and it's very bothersome. I get ravenously hungry basically, and that was never before a problem before. So, it's a little bit upsetting. But Glenn Livingston who has the book Never Binge Again, he came on my show and then I went on his show, which actually will probably be airing. I think he said he's going to air it probably around the time this show comes out. So, I can put a link to that in the show notes. But he's a huge fruit fan and I think he convinced me to bring back the fruit again. So, I'm going to do it.

Gin Stephens: I think you should do it. When I was experimenting with low fat just because it was right after Mastering Diabetes and I read that and I realized that was what my-- that one DNA analysis that I had suggested that exact percentage of fat they had said in Mastering Diabetes. I didn't have the hypoglycemic kind of thing. But I also eat a lot of grains, but I always have also.

Melanie Avalon: The mistake I made was I-- now that it's a mistake, but I tried a really intense ketogenic MCT oil type diet, and I think I lost my ability to-- I don't know, I think my liver is not used to running on carbs.

Gin Stephens: Very interesting. What's your Lumen telling you?

Melanie Avalon: I haven't tried it since trying to bring back the carbs. But this is something that's really interesting really quick. So, some of the symptoms I get when I try the fruit, if it's too much, it's like a heart racing. It feels like a sugar overload and the only time I felt that that I remember was before when I was eating a lot of fruit was on my birthday, one year, and they brought out a gluten-free chocolate cake. And I ate like the whole thing and my heart was racing and I was like, “I never want to feel this again.” And now, I'm getting that feeling from just eating like four kiwis, and it's really, really upsetting, but I've got to persevere. They say you've got to just stick it out. You've got to just [unintelligible [00:09:46] body for eating fruit and I'll learn how to.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm not doing any kind of restricting at all after that experiment yesterday. In fact, how I said I was going to have broccoli with hummus? I forgot that I had bought some blackberries, and so I opened my window, blackberries with heavy cream on it. So, you see it was neither low fat nor low carb. It was absolutely perfect that blackberries with heavy cream on top.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, blueberries are the only fruit that they don't give me any heart racing. I still, in the fast, the next day feel hungry.

Gin Stephens: Do you like blackberries?

Melanie Avalon: I do. Maybe I should try some of those.

Gin Stephens: Of course, you're doing low fat but blackberries with heavy cream are just so-- I mean really, you could pour heavy cream over cat food and I would probably like it. But anyway, It's really good on blackberries, and probably blueberries and strawberries and all the berries, but you don't do dairy.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I have been eating low fat and I rinse it to try to make it-- and I might start making my own cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: I do love cottage cheese.

Melanie Avalon: I love cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: They have like cultured cottage cheese.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I have.

Gin Stephens: Now, I feel I should go get some cultured cottage cheese just to eat it, but I'm not going to rinse it and I'm not going to get low fat.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, no, no, no, no. Get Nancy's cultured. It's so good and then I rinse it.

Gin Stephens: I think I'm going to because I got to eat the rest of these blackberries because they were on sale. That's why I bought them. So yeah, okay.

Melanie Avalon: I think I'm going to start making it-- Apparently, you can make it in your Instant Pot. I am so excited.

Gin Stephens: I don't have an Instant Pot.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to make it from fat-free grass-fed milk cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: We got to stop recording the podcast. Thank you all it was great to hear you today. An eight-minute podcast is [laughs] enough.

Melanie Avalon: Got to go make my cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: I've got to go buy some. I'm not going to-- I have a book about making cheese. It's like the 30-minute cheese or something. It's some kind of a book for making quick cheese, but I never made any cheese. All these great intentions.

Melanie Avalon: So many things.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: All right.

Gin Stephens: Are we ready to get started?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. All right. So, to start things off, we have two questions and they touch on a similar topic. So, we will read both of those. The first one comes from Adele. The subject is "IF With Small Kids and Holidays."

And Adele says, “Hi, ladies, I just want to say thank you so much for the podcasts. I listen religiously and look forward to a new podcast every week. The information that you provide has really helped me on my journey, which I'm still relatively new to. My question to you is how do I deal with questions from my kids who are six and four? My six-year-old is starting to make comments about me not eating, and I don't want them to have a bad complex with food or think that I do.

I've been telling them that I'm just not hungry and I don't feel like eating until later in the day. Is this the right approach? Or do you have other advice? We are also going on holidays for 10 days next week and I worried about fasting while on holidays, as we'll be sitting down together for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and I was thinking of trying to skip breakfast only. But now, I'm worried in front of the kids to just sit with a cup of coffee only. I don't want to undo all of my hard work by going mad for 10 days. I'd like to be able to find a balance. Do you have any tips for me that can help with this? Thanks in advance.”

And then, we also have a question from Jessica. The subject is "My Kids Are Watching Me." Jessica says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, first and foremost, I want to thank you ladies for all your hard work you put into this podcast. I am new at this and I have been loving catching up and you both have helped me understand this. I love it. I have two questions I would love your input on.” So actually, I'll go ahead and read her second question. And we can come back to her first question. So, her second question, she says, “I have two kids three and five. My husband brought to my attention the other day that they are watching me. What does it look like to my kids when I'm not eating with them? They see me skipping meals, and I'm sure they might start having questions. I'm not so sure fasting is a good idea for children. So, my question is do you ladies have any kinds of suggestions or have you ever dealt with this before? If so, what did you do or what would you recommend? I certainly would never want my kids to start questioning their eating habits at their ages. They're not overweight, and they are good eaters. Thank you so much for all you do. I apologize if I'm asking something you've already touched on, and I missed it. Love your podcast.”

And we can circle back to her other question. But kids and this problem. Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Jessica is right that intermittent fasting is not recommended for kids. And by that, I mean we do not recommend that kids or even teenagers start with a prescriptive, like, “I am going to have an eating window and it's going to be from this time to this time every day and I eat in a five-hour window or an eight-hour window,” or whatever. It's not recommended until they've reached physical maturity to the level that it would be okay. So, if you have a teenager who you feel like is physically mature, talk to their pediatrician, make sure that they are developmentally ready for intermittent fasting, but obviously, the children in these two questions are way too young for that.

I was an elementary teacher for 28 years, and I find that we often overcomplicate things in our adult minds when we're thinking about how kids are going to respond. When really, kids are great with simple explanations. I look back to how I was a crazy dieter for so many years when my kids were really little, and I was like doing crazy things. They watched me have a very twisted relationship with food, with my body, with eating. But I wasn't fasting, but they were watching. I think that they were more likely to get a complex during those crazy years than now.

Now that I'm an intermittent faster, of course, my kids are grown and they are intermittent fasters too now, but if they had watched me as an intermittent faster growing up, they would see someone who does not have a crazy relationship with food. When I eat, they see me eat with gusto and enjoyment. They see that I love food, that I don't fear food, that I eat what feels good, eat what I love, stop when I'm satisfied. And I don't use dieting language like, “Oh, I shouldn't have eaten that,” or, “Oh, I'm getting fat.” Things like that. Those are the things that kids pick up on a lot.

I think you just live the lifestyle the way that you feel right living it. And if a child asks, “Hey, why aren't you eating?” Say, “I'm a grownup and grownups have different needs, grownup bodies need food differently than growing bodies. Growing bodies need to eat more frequently because you're trying to grow. And adult bodies, we're not trying to grow. So, we don't need to eat as often. And the kids go, “Oh, okay,” and then they go on. And they really don't need long, drawn-out explanations. They just really instinctually understand growing bodies have different needs. And if you have a child that's trying to copy you, like, “Oh, I'm not going to eat either. I'm going to fast too.” Say, “No, fasting is not for kids. You have a growing body, I want you to eat when you're hungry.” So, I think that they understand that.

Now that being said, if you have a kid in the morning and your child’s like, “I don't want to eat, I'm not hungry,” just naturally, I would not force the child to eat. Teach your child to be an intuitive eater, eat when they're hungry, stop when they're satisfied. Don't say, “Have one more bite. Just eat a little more.” Let them stop when they've had enough, and they'll turn into lifetime intuitive eaters who don't have all the baggage that so many of us came along with. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: That was an epic and perfect answer. I was wondering, growing up what was the messaging when you grew up for when you were eating?

Gin Stephens: I had a mother who was a hippie. She didn't really force me. I remember one time she made me sit there at the table till I was going to eat, it was like squash or something. And I was like, “I will die before I'll eat the squash.” Now, I love squash. I sit there for hours, and I never ate it. [laughter] I won that battle, I remember that. And I think she never did it again.

Melanie Avalon: I like that story.

Gin Stephens: I was like, “I'm not going to eat it.” I'll be like an old lady sitting here with this plate of squash. Anyhow, I remember that, but really, my mother wasn't that interested in why I was eating, and whether it was a TV dinner or a can of SpaghettiOs, it didn't matter to her. She was fine with-- if I wanted to eat a sandwich or, it didn't matter. There weren't a lot of rules around. Now, we're having a meal and don’t eat between meals. I started using snacking more recreationally later. But I went to college at 17, so I never really lived at home again for a long period of time after the age of 17, even in the summers. One time I worked at a camp all summer and then one time I worked on college campuses. So, yeah, I left home pretty early.

Melanie Avalon: I forgot about that, that we both did that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Then I was like, just becoming a grownup and trying to figure out my own relationship with food, but we didn't really have structured mealtimes. I think it would have been better if I had grown-- I would have liked-- who knows? It's hard to say, but if I'd grown up in a household where it was like, “Now, we're sitting down to have breakfast.” “Now, we're sitting down to lunch.” “Now, we're sitting down to dinner.” Instead, it was more like, grab something whenever you felt like it. no one ever asked me really if I was hungry.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's so interesting.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, it is interesting, but my mother struggled with her weight. She was a dance teacher. She was always complaining about her weight or complaining about her size or trying to be on a diet. And so, I think I saw a lot of that. I don't know, it's hard. No matter what, we're probably doing something wrong. You could just do the best you can.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, we can go to Jessica's other question. She said, “I love running and I've been doing it for about 15 years, anywhere between four to seven miles, four to six times a week. I've been on the 18:6 IF cycle. I tend to eat a lunch and an early dinner. However, I run in the mornings and I'm wondering if not eating after my runs is a bad idea. I feel fine not eating. I'm hard-headed though and sometimes not in tune with my body. So, I would appreciate it any thoughts you might have on this?”

Gin Stephens: I think that you're in tune with your body enough to know that that was bad for your body, you would feel that. So, if you feel fine not eating, I think you would know. You would feel possibly shaky or you would have some sort of a sign that your body was not happy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because we get a lot of questions of people who do experience that. If it's not broken, don't fix it is what I say.

Gin Stephens: Really, if it feels right, it probably is. And if it feels wrong, it probably is. Our bodies have amazing feedback mechanisms in place when we connect to them.

Melanie Avalon: It's very, very true.

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Lisa. And the subject is "Melatonin." “Hi, ladies. I love, love, love your work and have been binge listening to both this podcast and Gin's other podcasts for almost a month now. I came to IF about six weeks ago primarily as a way to prevent Alzheimer's disease which my mother has. I don't weigh myself because scales play mind games with me, but I noticed clothes are looser and I feel overall just wonderful. High energy, more stable moods, and best of all, I crave healthier foods.

My question relates to sleep aids. One important anti-Alzheimer's measure is to get regular solid sleep. Being perimenopausal, my sleep hasn't been so solid. So, I've been given the green light to take melatonin at night to help. My understanding is that the chewable varieties are most effective. You can probably guess my question. Does chewing two pills at night break my fast? I usually close my window around 8:00, but I don't want to take my melatonin until around 11:00 which is when I like to go to bed. I'm almost finished reading Fast. Feast. Repeat., so apologies if there's an answer in that book that I haven't yet read.” And then, she lists the ingredients of her melatonin, and it does have flavors and sweeteners.“ So, thanks.”

Melanie Avalon: So, thank you, Lisa, so much for your question. Melatonin in itself, the hormone, is not going to break a fast. So, if you were to be crazy like me in the past and order straight pure melatonin powder, there would not be any fast breaking, but don't do that, that can be dangerous. The supplement that you listed, it does have a lot of ingredients in it. Like Gin said, artificial sweeteners like xylitol, maltodextrin which is actually sugar, starch, natural flavors. The technical answer is yes. My little caveat to it, and I'm not saying this to encourage people to take things lightly, but I think if there's the potential for something a supplement being least problematic in the whole grand scheme of things, it's probably shortly after your eating window has closed because you're still in the fed state, that tiny little bit of whatever-- it's not like you're into the fasted state already where taking in a supplement is going to send a different signal to your body because you're in the fed state at that moment.

So, this is really just supplements specifically. That said, I really wouldn't recommend the one that you're taking, Lisa, because it's got a lot of stuff in there. You don't need all that stuff in there. There are much pure forms that you can get. And I would actually really recommend, I had on my other show, Dr. Kirk Parsley who made a sleep supplement called Sleep Remedy and it does feature melatonin in the correct ratio that your brain needs as well as other natural substrates that your brain needs to like naturally instigate the sleep state. Those aren't pharmaceutical or a drug, it's just a supplement. So, I really recommend that. I'll put link to it in the show notes and a coupon. Those are my thoughts. Basically, I would suggest a different supplement anyway, even though if you are taking one, you're taking I'm not concerned about it from a breaking the fast perspective. I'm just concerned about it in that I don't like all those ingredients that are in it. Gin?

Gin Stephens: Yep, I was going to say that exact thing about a supplement at bedtime. For someone, like me, who say, “Fast, clean, fast clean. The clean fast is so important.” I completely agree with the fact that if you just close your window at 8:00, you're only three hours away from that. And so, your body has not made the transition. If you had a whole meal, that would be a different thing.

Melanie Avalon: Right. If you had food.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, then that starts the clock over. But a tiny little supplement like that is not going to interrupt because you're still digesting your last meal, you haven't shifted over into fat burning yet.

Melanie Avalon: It's not sending a different signal, basically.

Gin Stephens: Yes, I liked the way you said that. If you were 15 hours into your fast, it's going to feel different. Plus, even if it does make you feel a little, you're going to sleep. So, yeah, I completely agree with that. I've got to try that sleep remedy, Melanie. I've never tried it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. You haven't tried it?

Gin Stephens: No, have him send me some.

Melanie Avalon: Wait. Gin, how have you not tried it?

​

Gin Stephens: I don't know, all the struggle I've had with my sleep.

Melanie Avalon: I have taken it consistently for the past five or six years.

Gin Stephens: I've got to get some of that. Work your magic, and then we can talk about it.

Melanie Avalon: I can work some magic.

Gin Stephens: Work some magic.

Melanie Avalon: And they have an unflavored version.

Gin Stephens: Is it something you dissolve in water?

Melanie Avalon: Well, he has the supplement pill-- the supplements, and then he has drinks versions. So, you can look it over and see what you want.

Gin Stephens: All right. Well, I'd be interested to try it.

Melanie Avalon: Just to say, I will make that happen. Listeners, so if you go to melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy and use the coupon code, MelanieAvalon, you will get 10% off. Yeah, so I take the unflavored capsules, but there is a drink packet as well. That's actually a good question. Gin, what would you think about the drink version, because that would be more like a drink but it doesn't have calories?

Gin Stephens: I'm still pretty loosey-goosey up until I go to bed just because I have the evening eating window. I would never want to do something early in the day when I've woken up that would inadvertently break my fast because I'm deep in the fasted state. Right before bed, your body is still shifting over and a small sleep aid, I don't know how much it is, how much is the drink?

Melanie Avalon: It's a packet that you mix. It's five calories.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, probably not going to make a huge difference. It's tiny and it's at bedtime. But I guarantee if I woke up in the morning and drink something like that, I would be shaking, I would have--

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad we discussed that. I hadn't really thought about that way until we talked to it right now. But the signals' framework-- because you're not changing anything that's happening signal wise, and especially this drink would have five calories.

Gin Stephens: I would take the capsule though, just because but sometimes people really overstressed about stuff that's in capsules too. And they're like, I want to take this magnesium at bedtime, and it's got whatever, whatever in the capsule. Yeah, that's probably not a problem. Not very much. So, at bedtime is the time that I worry the least about supplements.

Melanie Avalon: What I love about the capsules is they're completely unflavored. There's no problematic ingredients.

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All right, now back to the show.

Our next question comes from Phoebe. The subject is, "IF Harder at Certain Points in Menstrual Cycle." Phoebe says, “Hi, Melanie and Gin. I've been doing IF for over a month now trying to find where my body is happiest, something between 16:8 and 18:6 and taking it day by day. One thing I'm starting to notice is that the more my hormones are changing closer to my period, I have a very regular cycle and very predictable bloating and cramps, etc. So, I know it's coming. The harder fasting seems to be, I feel hungry or sooner and generally more shaky or lethargic. Things I felt in the first days of IF, but which soon vanished.

I'm wondering if hormonal processes are to blame for fasting suddenly becoming much harder the last week or so. Have you heard other people saying the same thing? And yes, I am clean fasting, not over-exercising, and sleeping enough. Thank you so much for all y'all do.”

Gin Stephens: All right. I wish I knew how much time that really was because Phoebe says over a month now. So, there's a big difference between 5 weeks or 12 weeks. If Phoebe is within the first eight weeks still, it could just be getting to the end of the adjustment period where you have a harder time. Overall, with people in the groups, we hear over and over again that all of a sudden, fasting gets really, really hard. That's when that metabolic switch is getting ready to happen. The metabolic switch we talked about last week as your body is approaching that point and making the shift to fat burning. So, it totally could be your body getting ready to make that metabolic switch depending on where you are in the process.

But, I remember when I was doing intermittent fasting in the earlier days, and I was really tracking a lot of things and paying more attention to windows, and I can remember it was always like a shock to me every month because my cycle hasn't been regular like that. But especially since I've been going through perimenopause and menopause, I was wacky for years before I even started intermittent fasting. I had trouble with fibroids, that sort of thing. But I can remember I would be hungry and I'm like, “What's wrong with me? Why am I so hungry? What's going on?” And then, bam, the next day. And then, finally I started to recognize, but every month-- or not month, it might be 40 days, then one time-- Anyway, my cycle was all over the place during that period of my life, but every time I had the same reaction.

Melanie Avalon: Like not realizing?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I was like, I am just so hungry, and I'm like going to the grocery store and buying all the ice-cream. And then the next day, there it is. It was just so very funny because it surprised me every time. Then, all of a sudden, I realized. I don't know. we've been women our whole lives, and why was it suddenly a shock, but I know I really noticed it with intermittent fasting in those earlier days, but now, almost at the end of menopause, Melanie. I looked it up last night, yesterday was day 333. I'm now on day 334. I'm a month away from being able to say that I am done.

Melanie Avalon: I know nothing about all of this.

Gin Stephens: Well, a year. You give it a year, a year with no cycle and then you can say, you're officially-- And here's what's really, really funny. I looked up one time, what was the average age for menopause, and it was 51. And here I am, 51. I'm going to be perfectly average, spot on. Yay. Hooray for that.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder you probably were more in tune to the hunger because you were so used to not being hungry with intermittent fasting, so it was like, what?

Gin Stephens: I think so. I think that intermittent fasting made me see it more than I had before. I think that's true, but I just remember that process of being surprised every time and then all of a sudden, like “Okay, now I get it. I get it. Thank you.” But I was getting more in tune with my body.

Melanie Avalon: Do you suggest for women who do experience like crazy hunger to continue with what they are?

Gin Stephens: Well, I continued fasting, but I had longer windows and ate the food my body was craving. I just said that's what this is. And I bought the ice-cream.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I definitely think for a lot of women, the carbs are pretty important and all of that.

Gin Stephens: But my body certainly craved them, and instead of having ice-cream, I probably could have filled that same hole with, say, the blackberries with heavy cream.

Melanie Avalon: That’s what I was just about to say was, I would definitely encourage if you are having the cravings, there are different ways you could fulfill that craving. And if it is at all possible to get it in more of a whole foods form, that will help everything the most in the long term. Even if you want to eat cake mixes instead.

Gin Stephens: I can't think of the last time I’ve bought ice-cream. I don't think-- We just had been in the house for a year. I don't think I've bought ice-cream, like actual ice-cream the whole time we've been living in this house, which is -- I used to eat it all the time, but then I realized that the sugar gave me restless legs. I'm okay if I had a little treat. I just have discovered-- you're familiar with KIND bars, I'm sure. They have frozen KIND bars that are almost like ice-cream, but I think they're non-dairy.

Melanie Avalon: Oh really?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they're so good. They were almost like having like a little ice cream bar, like a Snickers bar ice-cream bar something, but the ingredients are so much different than you would find. I have some of those in the freezer but I'm not really gravitating towards them every day.

Melanie Avalon: One of the things I used to really love was there was a frozen kefir at Whole Foods. I can't find it now.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I bet I would love that.

Melanie Avalon: And it was low fat too. It was perfect. It was low fat. Yeah, frozen. It was LifeWay brand. If you ever see it-- Yeah, it was really good.

Gin Stephens: If I ever see it, I'll get it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: But now I have these wonderful little truffles. I have to just share these truffles with somebody, I was on her podcast. And so, she sent me as a thank you these little tiny truffles. They're so amazing. And so first of all, I told my husband he was not to consider them as his. [laughs] And then, I hid them in the refrigerator. And then, he's like, “Where are those truffles?” Every night, I get them out, we each have one. He's allowed to have one and I'm allowed to have one because we're savoring them and making them-- I'm not allowed to have one if that makes sense. I just know that it's just the perfect amount and I won't feel bad after having one. And it's going to make it last for days and days.

Melanie Avalon: I love that.

Gin Stephens: I know. All right, everybody for the next one.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Our next question is from René. The subject is "24-Hour Fast." René says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, love the podcast. I learned so much from it. I'm wondering about your opinions on adding in two 24-hour fasts per week to my routine. I've been IFing consistently since late February 2020. My minimum fast is 16 hours but my average is 19 to 20 hours. I've seen a weight loss of three to five pounds, very disappointing.” I wonder when she sent this. She said. “Yes, I am clean fasting, black coffee and plain Lacroix or Topo Chico only during the fast and eat a pretty clean diet during my window. I would say 85% to 90% whole foods, 10% to 15% processed. I do like that my wine and I have it a few times a week.

I’ve read Fast. Feast. Repeat., and it sounds maybe it's time for me to give ADF a shot but I am hesitant to do so. I like to eat something daily. I'm wondering if I throw in two 24-hour fasts a week, as in eat Sunday night at 5:00, and then don't eat until dinner, Monday at 6:00. And then, repeat that again Wednesday to Thursday. Following those with a 16 to 18-hour fast on Thursday and Friday to refeed and maintain 20-hour fasts the other days. Do we think that that could jumpstart my weight loss? I only have 15 to 18 pounds to lose. I'm at 158. My goal is 140. I am 5’5". But it seems like they just don't want to come off. I would love to hear what you ladies think of this plan or if you have better ideas. Thanks in advance. René.”

So, René sent this mid-August. She's been IFing for, let's see, February, March, April, May June, July, about six months, and she's lost three to five pounds.

Gin Stephens: Great question, René. First of all, I'm going to say something that's probably going to make you super sad. And that is the wine. Look, I have had a struggle with wine, and I'll be talking more about that over coming months but in Delay, Don't Deny, and I think I talked about this and Fast. Feast. Repeat. as well. When I was getting to my initial goal weight back in 2015, I delayed wine for about 10 weeks. I had a goal, I wanted to get to it. It was about time to shop for spring clothes. I wanted to go ahead and get to my goal weight so I could go shopping and buy my spring wardrobe. That was what it was. So, I delayed wine and also ultra-processed foods, which you'll remember the discussion of that from Fast. Feast. Repeat.

Even though I had already lost, I had lost 55 pounds at that point of my journey. I had 20 to go to get to my goal. My initial goal was to lose 75 pounds. And even though I'd already lost 55 pounds, I started losing at the rate of 2 pounds a week, which is really crazy for somebody who's already lost 55 pounds and is approaching their goal. Usually that's when weight loss really slows down, but mine really picked up because of the food choices I was making. Not having the alcohol really turbocharged my weight loss.

I have since figured out what I think is the reason. You've heard me talk about DNA analysis. I did a different company recently, just ran it through. It's is not a very expensive one, but I ran my raw data through their company, and for the first time I got information about my rate of alcohol metabolism. I am a slow alcohol metabolizer. That blew my mind. It made me realize why alcohol affected me so much when it came to weight loss because my body has to focus on dealing with the alcohol. Your liver processes alcohol. Your liver is also going to be the place where you want to be processing your fat that you're going into ketosis. I really think that for people like me who are slow alcohol metabolizers, alcohol may really be that link that is keeping you from tapping into your fat-burning superpower.

I actually have been experimenting with the ketone breathalyzer that Melanie's talked about before, and I have one too, and noticed a giant difference in my ketone levels for days after having any alcohol at all. I know that nobody wants to hear that alcohol could be the culprit for you, but man, my body sure has told it to me.

I also see that you don't really want to do ADF, so I would pull out Fast. Feast. Repeat. and look at the Intermittent Fasting Toolbox Chapter. You do not have to do full-on ADF. You can do Toolbox Strategy 2. I called it kind of a loose version of ADF because you're having short windows a few days a week and then longer windows, so you're getting that alternate pattern without having a full down day. So, look at Toolbox Strategy 2 where you're throwing in a few. You mentioned having two 24-hour fasts per week. Yeah, I would certainly try that. That, plus the wine and I really think you would see some things change. I'm sorry to tell you that because wine is amazing.

Melanie Avalon: I will weigh in and provide a-- I guess it could equally be a Debbie Downer or it could be a not Debbie Downer if you prefer the wine.

Gin Stephens: And again, sorry if your name is Debbie.

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's what I was just thinking. So, me looking at what you're eating and drinking the 85%, 90% whole foods, 10% to 15% processed, and then wine a few times a week, everything Gin said is completely true and stands. Some people are slow metabolizers, some people--

Gin Stephens: I'm still mad about that, by the way.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Struggle with weight loss, with wine. For a silver lining, from what I've seen, the majority of the research on alcohol and wine actually tends to-- so not like the food choices with the wine, but just wine and alcohol itself tends to correlate to lower weights, particularly in women. Wine and alcohol itself can't actually become body fat. So, when you are gaining weight, if you're gaining weight from drinking, it's from two potential things. It's what you're eating with the wine and/or what Gin talked about. If it's messing with how you're metabolizing other fuels, it could be an issue.

So basically, it's possible that it's fine. It's possible that it's not fine. It's definitely something that you can play with and see. I would say if I were to focus on something, I would focus on either going all whole foods, cutting out the processed foods, because she doesn't mention macros at all or trying a macros approach. So, either low carb, high fat or high carb low fat. And with both of those, I would recommend 10% or less of the macro you're limiting. So, like 10% fat diet or 10% carbs diet. Out of all those choices, maybe try what sounds most appealing to you. I think you'll see biggest results from adjusting the food choices probably. So, that's definitely something to try.

Yeah, if you're not wanting to try ADF, I wouldn't make that the first choice, like Gin said, because there's so many other things you can try. So, why do something you don't want to try?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, exactly. I just was shocked at the difference it made in my breath ketone scores, that's the thing I wasn't expecting. I couldn't believe the difference that it made in fact. And then, that was what really sent me looking for-- I guess I've never really come across the idea that some people are slow alcohol metabolizers and all the stuff I've read about people's bodies handling things differently. Like for example, I had read about caffeine metabolism. I know I'm a fast caffeine metabolizer. The other DNA analyses I did all told me that, but I never saw anything about alcohol. So, then I was like, “I wonder if we can have different rates of alcohol metabolism,” then I looked it up and sure enough there it was. It was really using the ketone readings that let me see something was going on.

Melanie Avalon: Also, yeah, for those ketone readings, if anybody's interested in going down that route of breath analyzing, I do have a group for it. It's called Lumen Lovers and Biosense Biohackers. So, you guys can join me there. Did I talk yet on the show about that recent study that just came out with alcohol and the rodents? That blew my mind.

Gin Stephens: I can't remember.

Melanie Avalon: It's a new study and it was looking at rats where they basically only gave them alcoholic water.

Gin Stephens: For some reason, yeah, but maybe we were just talking about it. I can't remember if we talked about it on the podcast or off the air.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know if we did. So, there was a study recently-- It just sounds really funny. They took rats and they had rats on a weight-promoting diet. So, like high-fat, high-carb, made to gain weight. Then, they had rats also on that diet, but all of their water was slightly alcoholic. And then, they had rats, I don't know what the third wing was. I think--

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, we have not talked about this. I don't think we have. This does not sound familiar.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you haven't heard-- Okay. Yeah, so the study, it was released January of this year, 2020. And the title is "Long-term low-dose ethanol intake improves health span and resists high fat-diet induced obesity in mice." And the setup was that they had mice that were eating a high-fat, high-carb calorie diet to make them obese. And then, they had a group also eating that diet, but their water actually had that 3.5% V/V, I'm not sure what that means, ethanol in their drinking water. And then, they had the group on a standard diet also with the ethanol.

They did this to, in their words, “Investigate the effects of long-term low-dose ethanol intake in vivo.” And it was honestly really shocking because the group that was eating the obesogenic diet without alcohol obviously got a lot of problems, like everything just crashed and burned basically. They got metabolically unhealthy, they gained weight, their liver triglycerides got bad. They got markers of just a lot of health issues. The group that had the water supplemented with ethanol didn't experience any of those effects. It's honestly really, really shocking.

Gin Stephens: That is bizarre.

Melanie Avalon: I was shocked reading it. I didn't think it would be that intense of a response. They have lot theories in it about why that might be happening. It could be activation of AMPK, which is something we talk about a lot, or at least I talk about it a lot. I'm not sure we talk a lot about in this show, but that's a gene that's expressed in the fasted state. And its longevity-promoting gene and it makes your body basically turn to its own self for fuel sources. So, it's great, we get during fasting so that could possibly be at play. It might have to do with insulin sensitivity. And it could be a lot of other things. Their conclusion basically, they said, “Our findings show that not only could long-term low-dose ethanol intake improve the physical performance and the health span in mice, but also boost the defense mechanism against the high-fat diet. Extended evaluations are needed to assess the long-term impacts of moderate alcohol intake on organs or systems such as the brain, the muscular, and the cardiovascular system. Findings from the current study substantiate opinions on the protective effects of moderate alcohol intake.”

Gin Stephens: They weren't trying to lose weight, right? It just prevented weight gain. Is that what they're saying?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Basically, they weren't adding it to like a normal diet. They were adding it to a diet made to make the rats obese and metabolically unhealthy. And when they had alcohol, they were protected from all of that.

Gin Stephens: Okay. But they were not like overweight rats who were trying to lose weight during the rat study?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it wasn't a weight loss study. But it makes you wonder, if it is having all these effects, it's very intriguing and it speaks to the potential role of wine in a healthy diet, if it works with your body for weight loss.

Gin Stephens: That's the kind of study I would have clung to like a life raft when I was trying to-- Look, it makes it better, it makes it better. That's why I was drinking so much wine but then realizing how it was affecting me--

Melanie Avalon: And the crazy thing is, I think for me, it does make me better.

Gin Stephens: Enough people say it that I believe-- I believe it if it is, but just for me, it's just been shocking to see the difference.

Melanie Avalon: My body composition hands down throughout my life has been the best during the time-- I know it could just be correlation, but it was definitely during the time that I was drinking the most wine.

Gin Stephens: But I lost weight the fastest, that was back when I was weighing daily and calculating, and I knew what my weekly average was doing. And I'd been on that road for a while to lose the 55 pounds before, but I lost two pounds a week after eliminating the wine, and I would notice if I had it. I just really notice the correlation between my weight and wine, and any alcohol back when I was a regular weigher. So, René, experiment with it and see. You may be like me, and the wine could make a difference for you. Or you could be like the rats or Melanie, and the wine helps you. That's a variable to play around with.

Melanie Avalon: I said it at the beginning but Dry Farm Wines, the reason we love them so much is it's basically a company that goes throughout Europe and finds the wineries practicing organic practices and then they extensively test the wines to make sure they are free of alcohols, free of pesticides, free of toxins, free of mold, low sugar, and low alcohol. And they're dry farmed, which is the traditional way of winemaking. And it actually creates more of a xenohormesis potential in the grapes, which is basically just saying that's likely going to have more compounds that actually jumpstart those longevity genes in our body. The link, dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, gets you a bottle for a penny.

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Shall we do one more quick question?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think we have time for one more. This is from Alexis and the subject is "Morning Workout." “If I work out in the morning, then I am hungry, but I don't want to eat and break my fast. However, if I don't eat after my morning walk, then I can feel sick and queasy. Any tips to hold me over so I don't break my fast until later in the day?” And she signed it Lexi, even though her email came from Alexis, she goes by Lexi. What do you say to Lexi?

Melanie Avalon: So, I have a few different thoughts here. She says workout but she says it's a morning walk, so it's not like an intense gym session, which if that were the case it would make more sense. Do you find, Gin, that most people get hungry or sick and queasy from just a walk? I'm just curious.

Gin Stephens: I'm wondering if Lexi is just really early in the process and is not fat adapted yet, because absolutely no. Once people are fat adapted, a morning walk would not make you probably sick and queasy. If you've been fasting clean for a long time and you're pretty sure you're fat adapted, I wouldn't think a morning walk would make you sick and queasy. Because I could do anything-- I mean, okay, that's me. I'm talking about myself. But just from the hundreds of thousands of group members that say the same thing. Once you're adapted-- When people I interview for Intermittent Fasting Stories, they talk about how, once they're adapted, they just keep doing the things in the fasted state and they feel great, but it's during the adjustment process, because feeling sick and queasy is a sign of low blood sugar, which means your body has nothing to fuel you. And so, your body is not accessing a fuel source during your walk for whatever reason your blood sugar crashes, you feel sick and queasy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I was going to say it's ironic because oftentimes I feel if we get questions about how do I deal with hunger during the fast? One of my suggestions is actually do something like go on a walk because normally, it usually has the opposite effect.

Gin Stephens: Well, it pushes you to that fat burning, it gets you there if you're right on the edge. Because if I'm having a lull during the day, a momentary feeling of, “Ugh,” I just will pay attention to it for a minute and then usually right after that, bam. I hit the really good part.

Melanie Avalon: So, I actually have a suggestion that's way out there. I am really, really becoming more and more convinced of the power of things like breathwork, especially for things like nausea or feeling sick or queasy or hunger because we don't just get energy from food. We get it from food, light, oxygen, breathing. And they've done studies. It's fascinating. They've done studies on athletes, and the percent increase in energy that they can get from breathwork is very impressive.

So, for example, when you are actually doing physical activity to generate energy, the process of actually creating energy, which is called ATP molecules, that involves something called aerobic dissimilation. And aerobic dissimilation creates about 30 times more energy, ATP molecules, when there's oxygen versus when there's not oxygen. And they found in studies that they can substantially increase performance with breathwork. The reason I'm saying this is if you're struggling with-- your body doesn't seem to be fueling adequately with your activity, I would maybe suggest trying some breathwork techniques before and potentially after. I'll put a link in the show notes to Wim Hof’s new book that's coming out because he has a lot of exercises in there for this specifically.

Also, you can tie it in with like a mindset shift. So, maybe if you can see your morning walk not as something that's going to make you hungry, but it's something that is actually tapping into your fat burning. The power of the mind is very powerful. And we've seen studies on this, like when people are doing exercise, if they think they are burning more calories, they lose more weight, like they burn more calories. So, if you can see the walk as tapping into your fat-burning that might actually be effective.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I believe the power of that. I talked about some of those studies in Fast. Feast. Repeat., where people were told that this is all the exercise you need in a day, like hotel workers, just the group that was told this was great exercise, lost weight. The group that wasn't told that, didn't. I mean, your mind is amazing.

Melanie Avalon: The mindset is all covered in Wim Hof’s new book too.

Gin Stephens: I can't wait to read it.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you to read it. I think I'm really excited that you're excited to read it.

Gin Stephens: Well, I think he's cool. He's a little wacky, right?

Melanie Avalon: Have you heard him talk?

Gin Stephens: I don't think I have because you know I don’t listen to things.

Melanie Avalon: I know you don't listen to things. But the interview I did with him, maybe you’ll listen to it. He'll be talking like normal and then he'll just get so excited, passionate, and just start basically screaming and talking about changing the world. And you're just like, “Oh, my gosh, what is happening?”

Gin Stephens: I can't wait to read it. He seems like an amazing guy.

Melanie Avalon: He really, really is. I would hands down get that book. I honestly want to be everybody read this and just use it to deal with all the things that you're struggling with, because it's just a really great reframe for what we experience. That said, if it doesn't mess with your circadian rhythm, you could have some coffee. That might help suppress appetite, tea. Also, breath work side of things. I've mentioned this before, but I am loving, loving my Komuso Shift’s necklace. It's a necklace that you wear, and you breathe in through your nose and then out through it, and it forces you to extend your exhale. So, it basically forces you into breathwork technique that is calming and just really beneficial for the body. Especially if you have the urge, like munch, you want something in your mouth. It's nice because it's literally something that you can put to your mouth. But, yeah, I would encourage-- like Gin said, we don't know how long she's been doing it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that would be something I would wonder because it just sounds like she's not fat adapted.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, definitely. And also, she doesn't talk at all about what she's eating in general. So, that could also be adjusted, but we don't know. Gin, do you have other thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that was it.

Melanie Avalon: All righty. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get Gin's new book, Fast. Feast. Repeat., in stores, everywhere. You can join my Facebook groups, IF Biohackers and Lumen Lovers and Biosense Biohackers, got two of those. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. You can follow me on Twitter, I'm @melanieavalon and Gin is @ginstephens. I think that's it. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it, and I will talk to you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, I just realized what next week is. Big things are on the horizon.

Gin Stephens: Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Talk to you then.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts: Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 178 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, as you all know, I've always said that when you eat is just as important as what you eat to fulfill your best wellness lifestyle. And guess what? The same thing goes for natural light. With our modern indoor lifestyles, it can be really hard to get enough natural light from the sun but getting a good amount of light is super important for your health. That's why we use and adore Joovv Red Light Therapy products. They shine wavelengths of red and near-infrared light right in the comfort of your own home.

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All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 178 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am doing great. I got some really good news this week. You already know it, that Fast. Feast. Repeat., is coming to Targets in America, the Target stores, in November.

Melanie Avalon: That's so exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is so exciting. They're having like a specialized wellness push because I guess for the holidays. Anyway, it's really hard to get into Target, so I'm very, very excited to be able to walk into Target and see Fast. Feast. Repeat. right there. Also, yesterday, I don't know if you saw this, I posted it on Facebook and on Instagram, but I was at the mall. I was looking for some shoes. By the way, I don't understand styles. I'm 51, I just want some dark brown leather flip-flops. I had some that were great, and a dog chewed them up at my friend's house. And so, I've been trying to find another pair. Apparently, the shade of dark brown that I'm looking for is not in style. Everything is like light brown and nude and cork. I don't know. Anyway, side note. While I was at the mall, I went to the Barnes & Noble and signed all of the copies of Fast. Feast. Repeat., that they had.

Melanie Avalon: Did you do it secretly?

Gin Stephens: No, I didn't do it secretly because--

Melanie Avalon: Did you ask them if you could sign?

Gin Stephens: I did.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you did. What'd they say?

Gin Stephens: They had five on the shelf and I went and-- this girl who worked there and I'm like, “Hey, I'm the author. Can I sign these books?” She's like, “I'm not sure. Let me check.” I'm like, “Okay. Go check.” [laughs] I thought they might say no at first. I was like, “All right.”

Melanie Avalon: And what they say?

Gin Stephens: Well, the manager came over. And he was like, “Of course, and we'll put these stickers on them that say signed copy.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Gin Stephens: Which, of course, is what I wanted them to do because then people can tell it's a signed copy. But what was fun is he told me they've had to reorder several times and that it was selling really well.

Melanie Avalon: That's really exciting.

Gin Stephens: That people were coming in and asking for it, so yeah, that made me so happy. Fast. Feast. Repeat., check your Barnes & Noble, and then in November, check your Targets.

Melanie Avalon: Now, I feel like-- because when they release mine in Barnes & Noble at the beginning, they had it featured like on the centerpieces where they feature the books, they had a featured, I should have done that. I should have asked if I could sign. I just went in secretly and bought it and didn't tell anybody. And then, since then, I just walk in secretly and sign it and runaway, like I've done something wrong.

Gin Stephens: But I just felt like it would be fun and so I did it, and it was fun, and also weird. It felt weird.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's exciting.

Gin Stephens: It was. That was a lot of fun. So, what's up with you? Anything new?

Melanie Avalon: Well, you know this, but I interviewed Wim Hof.

Gin Stephens: Very cool.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my goodness. Listeners, you guys know I talk about my obsession with cold exposure. We're going to get Gin on board someday.

Gin Stephens: We're not. We're not going to get to Gin onboard.

Melanie Avalon: Wim Hof is known as The Iceman and he climbed Mount Everest in shorts. He holds 26 world records. He's insane. There's actually an episode on Netflix right now on Gwyneth Paltrow’s shows. I think it's called like Goop Lab series.

Gin Stephens: Something like that. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Did you watch the fasting mimicking diet episode she did?

Gin Stephens: I did not.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, she had Valter Longo on for one of the episodes. She had an episode with Wim, and he has the cold exposure, breathwork techniques, which I've also started doing. Oh my goodness, Gin, how long can you hold your breath?

Gin Stephens: Probably not long enough.

Melanie Avalon: If you do Wim Hof technique breathing, you magically can hold your breath eons, and it's not even a big deal. I held it two and a half minutes, like it wasn't even a big deal.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I can't do that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you can. If you do the breathwork. You think you can't, but you can. And then, it's funny because you're totally fine and then also you'll feel like you're dying. And that's when you take your breath in. For listeners, it's pretty much the most motivational conversation I think I've probably ever had, because he just wants to change the world. And he's so passionate, and he's doing all the research. That's what's really unique is, they're doing clinical studies on all of his methods and they're finding incredible things. The first time they've shown in scientific studies that you can modulate or control your autonomic response to things, like your immune system that they thought couldn't be controlled by the mind. They found that with his method, the participants can.

Gin Stephens: Wow. So, does he have like one book that you recommend?

Melanie Avalon: He doesn't have any books yet.

Gin Stephens: Oh, he has one that's in the works, doesn't he?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's what I brought him on for.

Gin Stephens: Okay, he's got the same literary agent that you and I do.

Melanie Avalon: I forgot about that. Yeah, he does.

Gin Stephens: He's represented by the same agency. Love it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I remember I tried to get connected to him through them and they were like he's really busy traveling. So then, I got connected in another way. His book, which is coming out, it's called The Wim Hof Method: Activate Your Full Human Potential. Guys, get this book.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I'm going to. That sounds like one I would love.

Melanie Avalon: It's amazing. It's short. It's great, because it's a great blend of he tells his own story, and it's like personal but then he goes all through the science of the method. There's some people that you feel who truly change the world and I feel he's doing that.

Gin Stephens: As long as I don't have to do cold exposure.

Melanie Avalon: You don't have to, but you might get convinced reading his thing. You might.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we’ll see.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and he told me how I can get a chest freezer and do ice baths in my apartment.

Gin Stephens: Oh my God, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “I want to move to Alaska.” And he's from the Netherlands, he has an accent. He's like, “You can bring Alaska to your home.” And he told me how.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that sounds dangerous. You're like trapped in an ice-cold chest freezer.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I might be thumbs down on that one. I don't know about that.

Melanie Avalon: No, you unplug it. He told me how to do it. You plug it in, you get silicone, you do something with a silicone. You put the water in, you run it for 24 hours to get it cold. And then when you want to use it, you unplug it and then you sit in it. And it's like sitting in Alaska. I am so pumped.

Gin Stephens: I don't even want the cold water that comes out of the faucet, that's too cold.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, gosh. Baby steps. Okay.

Gin Stephens: On that note, let's go to our first question.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so our first question comes from Maria. And she says-- printed it out today. “Hi, Gin and Melanie. First of all, I love listening to your podcasts during my morning walks. I've been picking random ones, but I've probably listened to about 30 in the past few months. During this quarantine time, I have been making some lifestyle changes. And after listening to many podcasts about intermittent fasting, I'm very interested in the benefits of it. I'm not looking to lose weight as I am 5’3" and 122 pounds and this is a healthy weight for me. When I listen to the podcast, I hear that most people have very short eating windows, such as 18:6 or 24. I've tried doing longer fasts but even 16 hours is sometimes hard for me. I've been fasting between 14 and 17 hours depending on how I feel each day.

I wanted to know if a fasting window of 14 to 15 hours is too short to see benefits from fasting. I'm a breakfast eater, so not eating till noon or 1:00 PM has not been working well for me and I usually get hungry around 10:00.”

All right. Thoughts, Gin?

Gin Stephens: That's a great question, Maria. And yes, you can absolutely have benefits from a fast of 14 to 15 hours. I've seen Valter Longo who came up with the fasting mimicking diet. He promotes doing just a 12-hour fast regularly for health benefits. So, 14 to 15 hours, yes, you're not going to get into deep fat-burning state, but you're not trying to. My husband does a loose 16:8-ish. But often, he'll open his window even earlier if he just feels like he needs to eat earlier that day, maybe on the weekend. So, yeah, go with how you feel. I would not hesitate to do a 14- to 15-hour fast if it feels right to you.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. 100% I'm on the same page. And I find it a little bit ironic because, and Gin mentioned this, but some big fasting proponents actually advocate, especially for women doing more consistently a shorter fast, be it 12 to 16 hours or so. My only question is, Gin, what do you think are the implications that she does find it harder? Do you think that indicates that she's not adapting to fasting? Or do you think it just means that maybe a longer fasting window isn't appropriate for her?

Gin Stephens: Yes, that went through my head. I don't think she has to force it, though. So, I didn't know that that really mattered to her. But she gets hungry around 10:00 because that's when she's used to eating and she's not getting into that deep fat-burning state. But since her goal is really just to maintain, she could push through and get there, but to what end?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my only question is, is there not some adaptation that has happened?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, if she wanted to lose weight, then I would tell her to push through that. She's probably getting hungry right at that moment where her body would be making the transition into fat burning and so she would need to push through so that that would happen, but she's not trying to do that.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. We don't often get questions where people do want to maintain-- they're not looking to lose weight, but they're also sort of wanting to fast longer.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but she doesn't want to fast longer. If you are enjoying it, you feel good doing that, do it.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, I agree.

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Adam. And the subject is, When the Liver Runs Out of Glycogen. Adam says, “I've heard different things from different sources on what happens when your liver runs out of glycogen. They are, one, if you are not fat adapted, then your metabolism slows down instead of your body accessing its fat stores. Two, if your liver runs out when you're exercising and you're not fat adapted, your body will use protein and amino acids to provide energy instead of fat stores. Three, running out of glucose in the liver when you're not exercising will not access amino acids and your body will use fat stores. Four, exercise at the end of a fast empties your liver and actually trains your body to be fat adapted. I guess my main concern is the point about your metabolism slowing down if you are not fat adapted. That source said you needed to do a low-carb diet to get fat adapted first.

Then, my secondary concern is your body using amino acids and possibly breaking down muscle during a workout, if not fat adapted. Do you guys have any insight on this? Thank you.”

Melanie Avalon: All right. This is great-- I like the different questions from Adam. We actually have a question from Beth as well, which also talks about glycogen. So, I might go ahead and read that and then maybe we can just do a breakdown of all of this, especially because I've been studying this a lot recently. So, I'm going to go and read Beth's question. Her subject is Glycogen, and she said, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. Love your podcast. I look forward to it every week. The dogs get a little longer walk when a new one loads. I've been doing IF for a little over a year. Love it, will not go back.

I do have one question. I'm also a runner and a biker. When I first started IF, my workouts struggled a bit, I'm not sure what happened, but I finally got over it. Honestly, when I started IF, I was probably lower carbs and eating cleaner. Then, I started to eat less clean in my window and had more endurance, but my weight loss stalled. I feel better when I eat cleaner which results in fewer carbs, but my running suffers. I wonder if it has something to do with my glycogen stores. I was listening to one of my favorite nutritionists, and she promotes clean eating and also likes IF but doesn't solely promote it.

Anyway, she was talking about glycogen stores and once your body uses those up, it will start to burn fat. She mentioned especially if you exercise, you may need a few more carbs for glycogen stores. I wanted your thoughts on this, any advice? I don't know if there's any way to know how many carbs to have enough glycogen to not struggle running, is this even how it works? I won't stop IF and I won't stop running. But I would like to do both, but still lose even more pounds with better eating. Thanks in advance. I'm so thankful to my friend who introduced me to this lifestyle. Beth.”

I don't know why I'm so obsessed with glycogen but I am. I literally, for fun, just read about glycogen stores and what's going on there. And I think one of the things I'm so fascinated about is there's this prevailing idea that the way things work is you deplete glycogen and then you enter ketosis. I don't know, that's the way it works. I think that goes back to a study from like 1980 was where that was first posited and that's what's mostly referenced. There's not a lot of literature looking a little bit deeper at that. And I recently found a study that literally made my life, granted it was in rodents, but I think it's still pretty fascinating, and maybe we can learn some things from it, and it might question our ideas about what might be going on with glycogen and fat burning and ketosis and all that stuff.

Because basically, in the study, they had four groups of rats. They had aged rats and young rats. Then, they had a group of aged rats on a standard diet, but doing time-restricted eating, so doing intermittent fasting. They had rats on a ketogenic diet doing intermittent fasting. And then, they also had a control group as well, which I think was just eating a normal diet throughout the day. And then, they had young rats, same thing. So, young rats doing a standard diet with carbs and intermittent fasting. Young rats following a ketogenic diet with intermittent fasting and then like control rats. They did a set of different studies, comparing all of these.

But what was fascinating was, they basically used the glucose ketone index, that's the GKI, as a marker for really entering a ketogenic state and so that's just looking at blood sugar levels compared to ketone levels. They found a lot of really fascinating things. They found that on ketogenic diets, it reduced overall glycogen storage capacity. So, the rats on ketogenic diets doing intermittent fasting, they could hold total less glycogen total.

Gin Stephens: Is that saying they didn't refill it as much?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, but the actual-- if their liver could hold X amount of glycogen, it was less than the amount of glycogen that the rats that were not doing ketogenic diets could hold. And then, what was interesting though, was it wasn't affected by fasting or not fasting. So, when they were fed and when they were fasting, they had lower total glycogen levels compared to the group that was eating the carb-inclusive diet with fasting. So, it was lower levels at the moment compared to the other group, but the capacity of the glycogen was less. Basically, they weren't holding as much glycogen-- Actually, yes, what you kind of just said, they weren't necessarily refilling it, but it was staying steady and it wasn't getting affected by going in and out of fasting. Now, I feel like I'm going all over the place, but it does speak to some of the questions we just had about-- because I read before that when people are keto adapted, they don't necessarily need glycogen as much for fueling exercise and stuff like that. The muscles become fat adapted, but then also their glycogen levels aren't really involved in their energy and output and things like that.

One of their quotes was they found that ketosis prevents fasting-induced liver glycogen depletion. So, in other words, when these rats were following ketogenic diets and doing fasting, when they went into fasting, it wasn't necessarily depleting that glycogen, they were maintaining it, which throws a paradigm shift there about how to think about things. For muscle glycogen, there was absolutely no difference between any of the groups, which was really interesting.

So, they found that the glycogen stores only hindered entering ketosis, so only made it harder to enter ketosis for the aged rats following a standard diet with intermittent fasting. The idea there might be that age rats aren't as metabolically flexible and aren't as good about switching in and out of ketosis. So, the age rats on ketogenic diets, the young rats on ketogenic diets, and the young rats on standard diets, all of them doing fasting, their glycogen stores did not really affect how soon and to what extent they entered ketosis. So, I don't know if it's that the fasting was basically making it easy for them to enter ketosis and glycogen wasn't even playing a role as long as they're metabolically flexible, which would be the young rats and then the old rats on ketogenic diets. It really speaks a lot though to metabolic flexibility and this idea that it seems people depending on you, depending on your metabolic flexibility, people can often switch in and out of ketosis, and glycogen might not be playing as big of a role as we think it might be playing. But when there is metabolic dysfunction, which would be indicated with the aged rats on standard diets, even though they were doing interment fasting, then glycogen played a whole lot bigger role.

That said, I think humans, especially when we're not humans in controlled experiments, I think the majority of us are metabolically broken. So, I feel if anything, we're probably more likely going to mirror those aged rats, we might be more dependent on glycogen, being a lever and going in and out of ketosis.

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All right, now back to the show.

Gin Stephens: Have you read Flipping the Metabolic Switch recently?

Melanie Avalon: Not recently.

Gin Stephens: I've got it right here in front of me. And this is Mark Mattson and others. Mark Mattson is the one who did the New England Journal of Medicine article that came out December of 2019 that everyone was talking about. This is a paper that was from October of 2017. This article really is what taught me about glycogen and what happens but if anybody hasn't read it, I would read it. Flipping the Metabolic Switch: Understanding and Applying the Health Benefits of Fasting. It's available for free online if you search for it. And I actually have it linked in the back of Fast. Feast. Repeat. But this guy's 100% against the-- some of the things you were just theorizing, Melanie, and it says, the metabolic switch-- This is their definition of the metabolic switch. I'm going to read verbatim.

“The point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted and fatty acids are mobilized, typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.” And then, another section under the “Results and Conclusions,” it says, “Emerging findings suggest that the metabolic switch from glucose to fatty acid-derived ketones represents an evolutionarily conserved trigger point that shifts metabolism from lipid/cholesterol synthesis and fat storage to mobilization of fat through fatty acid oxidation and fatty acid-derived ketones, which serve to preserve muscle mass and function.”

Going to Adam’s point. Adam is correct that before your fat adapted, you might have that issue. But once you're able to tap in and you're able to produce those fatty acid-derived ketones, that's when you preserve your muscle mass and function. So, then it goes on to say, I'm going to quote again, “Thus, IF regimens that induce the metabolic switch have the potential to improve body composition in overweight individuals.” They specifically say that we've got that metabolic switch from glucose to ketones, and they talk about that point being at which the liver glycogen stores are depleted.

I feel like one thing that we sometimes get confused on is whether they have to be depleted to zero. I think that's a point of misunderstanding. There's a point when the liver glycogen is low enough that we start to make the transition. And perhaps we can use the rat study. Tell me if this makes any sense, Melanie, that maybe as you become more metabolically flexible, maybe your body doesn't stash as much away as glycogen anymore in your liver. Your body's better at saying, “No, I'm not going to stash this away in my liver.” I don't know, that's just a theory based on what you said about the rats.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. A lot of things there that you just said-- I'm in agreement with all of that. I'm curious what they're quoting for getting that information about the glycogen specifically. I need to go read what study they're talking about from that. I'm wondering if everybody's referencing the same original source material for that.

Gin Stephens: That's what everyone's understanding is coming from the same because everybody's saying it this way, including Mark Mattson. Here's a big-time-- yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Everything that you just said is actually in agreement with everything that I was just pointing out that when we're fat adapted, we're switching into burning fats because-- the sentence you read about emerging research, it wasn't talking about glucose, it was talking about switching to fat burning.

Gin Stephens: The whole point of this journal article is the metabolic switch is that point where your liver glycogen is depleted enough for you to switch over. That's what they're calling the metabolic switch, flipping the metabolic switch. The metabolic switch is defined by them as the point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted, and fatty acids are mobilized. So, it's the point.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and then typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.

Gin Stephens: It sounded like the rat study was saying, “Hey, liver glycogen has nothing to do with it.” And I don't want people to think that's true.

Melanie Avalon: So, the consistency with the study wasn't glycogen stores, it was really the time? So, the fasting time? What Mattson says, and this is what I'm wondering because he says, “The point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted and fatty acids are mobilized typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.” What I'm wondering is, is it citing literature talking about liver glycogen stores being the key, also, it's overlapping with 12 hours being when that happens, when I'm just wondering if maybe it's the time, it's the 12 hours and maybe liver glycogen stores aren't necessarily completely depleted at 12 hours. We often say don't focus on ketones, don't stress about measuring ketones. I think it's the same thing with liver glycogen.

Gin Stephens: Well, oh, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't stress about it at all.

Melanie Avalon: It just seems like the more and more I read and think about this, that the prevailing idea is often that we deplete liver glycogen and then we start burning fat. And those are often lumped together with fasting because fasting is often the method of depleting liver glycogen. What I'm wondering is, maybe we think it's the liver glycogen depletion when it's partially that, but maybe also, or instead actually the fasting time. Because even what Mark Mattson said and I keep reading this, but he says, “The point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted and fatty acids are mobilized, typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.” It's a tiny nuance, but I'm wondering if we're focusing on this prevailing theory of liver glycogen depleting when really maybe that metabolic switch is the 12 hours. Maybe that's the metabolic switch. Maybe the metabolic switch isn't the glycogen.

Gin Stephens: I don't think so. I don't think it's time, and that's just because based on my experience and the experiments of so many other people, I actually can tell you when I've had vacations and I can tell I've refilled glycogen to the point that it takes me longer. I can tell some days that switch gets flipped sooner and a lot of it depends on what I ate the day before. So, no, I don't think 12 is the magic number. I think that is an average perhaps for someone who is metabolically flexible. Perhaps, if you're metabolically flexible around hour 12 is probably an average, that would be my hunch. But, no, I don't think it's time dependent. I do think it's energy balance dependent.

Melanie Avalon: My hunch is it might be more time dependent.

Gin Stephens: The reason that I don't think that that's true is just the way I feel differently on different days and I can pinpoint it, based on what I've been doing and how I've been eating.

Melanie Avalon: The other thing is liver glycogen caps at not that much. Usually, estimate is 100 grams, which is 400 calories. Even if you were to go on a crazy vacation, eat 5,000 carbs, it's actually not going to add any more extra liver glycogen. It'll fill muscles if they're not filled. So, there is more glycogen stores in the muscles, but that is reserved for the muscles. That's not going to affect probably your entrance into ketosis. So, you can't eat really more than what your liver glycogen stores allow, even if you go on a crazy, crazy, crazy carb binge. When you run out of glycogen stores in the liver and muscles, the carbs will either be burned off as energy or 2% to 3% up to potentially 10%, but it's probably more like 2% or 3%, will get turned into fat in the liver.

Gin Stephens: Can I interrupt real quick? I think it's a more gradual process than you're implying there because it's not like I go eat week on vacation. And then after day one of eating more, my glycogen is filled. I think just as we deplete it gradually overtime to get to the point where we're getting into ketosis every day, I don't think that you just eat one meal and then, bam, all that goes into glycogen storage. That's the thing. I know that the liver can only hold a certain amount, but I don't think that it refills it all up just from a meal. I've just noticed when I've had a day where I ate more, I'm fine. But it's when I've had several days-- It's like a gradual thing. Just like we have a gradual depletion, we have a gradual refilling.

Melanie Avalon: That's another thing is your liver glycogen stores. The more carbs you eat and long you eat, you can raise that potential to store more. I'm just confused, how does that affect when you would start generating ketones again?

Gin Stephens: Well, the last time I went on a cruise, I could tell it was a few days after being home before I started getting into ketosis during my fast. It took me a few days of being back on my normal fasting schedule. How do I know? Well, because I would need to take naps. I know my body well enough to know. Now, we have this ketone analyzer that you talk to them on your other podcast, and it's been really interesting that I can say, “Ooh, I feel like I'm in ketosis.” And then, I can blow and I'm getting numbers. Whereas I'm like, “Yeah, I can tell I'm not,” like first thing in the morning. But it's not always at the same time. It doesn't always correlate to, “Well, now I'm at 12 hours, I'm going to get a number.” Sometimes, it's earlier than 12 hours, depending on what I ate the day before or how much I ate if I had a short window. Sometimes, it's at 16 hours.

What's fascinating is, I've been doing this so long, I can feel when that metabolic switch is flipped, I feel it. And so, the breath ketone monitor has been great at confirming, like, “Ooh, I feel like the switch is flipped,” and then I'll use it and I'm like, “Yep, there it is.”

Melanie Avalon: So, if you eat a really big carb vacation meal, you think you don't get into ketosis at all the next day?

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, not if I just eat one big carb vacation meal. It takes a few days. Even if I just go away for a weekend and have two days with longer windows or something, it takes me more than just two days before my glycogen is filled up. If I go on cruise for five days, I'm going to come home and I'm going to have to re-deplete glycogen, I can feel it.

Melanie Avalon: So, when you have a big meal of carbs--?

Gin Stephens: I mean I have big, big carb meals every single day.

Melanie Avalon: You don't think it fills up your glycogen?

Gin Stephens: No. I don't think my body just shoves all those carbs into my liver. I think it uses a lot of them for energy because you're eating, your body’s using those carbs for energy. I think my body uses those carbs for energy that I've just eaten. And then, there may be a little bit to go into my glycogen stores, but not all of it.

Melanie Avalon: Because I'm not trying to argue or anything, just the thoughts that I'm having is that, it seems like people have glycogen stores filled or not filled, regardless if they fast like 16 hours, they're probably going to enter ketosis and it's not going to necessarily matter if the night before was keto, or was carbs if they're metabolic flexible. That's what I'm saying.

Gin Stephens: It really just all depends on what your body does with what you eat. And there's so many things your body could do with it depending on exercise and what you're doing.

Melanie Avalon: In these rats, the only group that did have to deplete glycogen completely to enter ketosis was aged rats on high-carb diets. So, presumably metabolically inflexible rats.

Gin Stephens: And again, depleting glycogen completely, I think is the thing that-- Mark Mattson didn't say you have to deplete it completely. You just have to get to the point. And maybe your liver is holding a reserve. It just depends that everybody has a different point. And it depends on how you've built up your fat-burning enzymes. I think there's a lot of factors here.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. What I'm saying is I think it's way more nuanced than the way it's posited because I think the way it's posited is everybody holds X amount of liver glycogen. You deplete liver glycogen, you enter ketosis. When it seems like it's more it depends on metabolic flexibility, depends on how easily your body can switch-- wants to switch to burning ketones, wants to make that switch. And if you are metabolically flexible, if you're doing a ketogenic diet that seems to make it. It seems like you're doing a ketogenic diet, so you're always keto all the time. Your body's not really going by glycogen at all for when it's generating certain amounts of ketones. But when you are eating carbs, if you're metabolically flexible, glycogen might not be playing as much as quite a big of a role in having to hit a certain depletion number before you switch over. But if you're metabolically inflexible, yeah, you've got to go through that, you've got to deplete.

Gin Stephens: I would just really encourage everybody to find that Mark Mattson’s article and read it, Flipping the Metabolic Switch, and dig into that. Dig into their references, go through that, and see what you can come up with yourself. But I do think Adam is correct that if you're not fat adapted, then you could have some issues, but that's the whole point of knowing that you're going to get to the other side of the fad adaption period. That's the whole point of the 28-day FAST Start in Fast. Feast. Repeat., is that your body is learning how to become fat adapted. And that's the part that takes time, and it can take more than 28 days if you're somebody who's very metabolically inflexible. That's just like a ballpark that you should give yourself at least that amount of time for it to happen. But once that switch is flipped, using the wording of Mark Mattson in his paper, that's when you become fat adapted.

The whole point is don't worry so much about what is your level of glycogen, where is it stored. Instead, you want to flip that metabolic switch so that your body can shift fuel sources as needed. And I think that's the only takeaway we really need to worry about. Fast sufficiently so that your body becomes fat adapted and you're able to switch fuel sources as needed to fuel your workout, to fuel your day, tap into your fat stores. I think that's all that matters.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, because I mean that's basically what I was saying is that it's more about the metabolic flexibility. The title of the study that I am referencing is called Metabolic Switching is impaired by aging and facilitated by ketosis independent of glycogen. To that point, what the study actually says, or what they say in their discussion is they say the prevailing theory regarding the initiation of ketogenesis is that ketone body production is triggered once the body depletes its glycogen stores. This glycogen depletion hypothesis likely stems from the body's natural metabolic response to vigorous exercise or longer fasts. It acknowledges that that is the prevailing theory. But then, it's talking about how there seemed to be a lot more-- a few more nuances and factors involved. But for listeners, yeah, we'll put links to all of this in the show notes so you can dive in deep. Like I said, this is just sort of my obsession just because I just feel like it's way more complicated.

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Melanie Avalon: To address Adam’s questions, he says he's heard that when your liver runs out of glycogen, if you're not fat adapted, then your metabolism slows down instead of your body accessing its fat stores. We pretty consistently see that when you run out of glycogen is when that metabolic switch will start to happen. I do think there's an adaptation period where the body is resistant to making that switch in the beginning and it's going to want to make you hungry, make you want to not make that switch. But I wouldn't be worried about your metabolism slowing down per se, especially since a lot of the studies show that the more you do fasting, the metabolism can actually rise. Do you have thoughts about that specific one?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't think we have any specific study exactly, like following someone through the liver glycogen depletion process and measuring their metabolism. But this is all theoretic, anyway.

Melanie Avalon: If there is, it will be like Christmas. I want to read it, please send it to me.

Gin Stephens: That'd be cool. I'd like to read it too. But theoretically, if your liver ran out of glycogen, and you had no more fuel, and your body is not well fueled, that's when your metabolism would start slowing down. But your body is going to find that fat and get adapted pretty darn quick. That's the point of it.

Melanie Avalon: You know what's actually really interesting? I'm reading Cate Shanahan’s Fatburn Fix right now, and I'm getting deeper into it. It's kind of how you have your FAST start and then the purpose of that is to make people metabolically flexible and adapted, you're not focusing on weight loss, it's to make these changes. So, her approach is actually very similar, but a little bit different. So, she has phase one. And the goal of phase one is to reduce these hypoglycemia symptoms because she talks about how-- actually, like Adam’s first point, people who aren't fat-adapted yet, when they do but have liver glycogen, the body just freaks out, it doesn't know what to do and you get hypoglycemia. So, her approach, which also is similar to, Gin, how you have, how to ease in with a ketogenic diet if people want. Don't you do like a ketogenic?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they can use the low carb, yep, ease-in meals, we call them.

​

Melanie Avalon: She actually recommends everybody for the phase one. It is so interesting. Unless you don't struggle with hypoglycemia symptoms. So, it's basically the people who do have this metabolic inflexibility, they start with a phase one, which is actually a ketogenic diet rather than fasting. And then, when you don't have hypoglycemia symptoms, you go to phase two, which actually integrates intermittent fasting. This is so interesting. So, it's a different approach than yours, but it's similar and it's speaks to this whole concept of--

Gin Stephens: Of getting adapted. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. When you're metabolically flexible, which is supported, like I said, by that rat study. When you're metabolically flexible and the body is able to switch fuel sources, then it just happens. And glycogen, we might not even necessarily know what's happening specifically there and things might be changing with that. I do want to talk about the second question, which was if your liver runs out when you're exercising and you're not fat adapted, your body will use protein and amino acids to provide energy instead of fat stores. The body breaks down protein for two different reasons from your muscle. One would be for amino acids during catabolic activity. So, if you're breaking down muscle, you're breaking down muscle, like doing resistance training and things like that. Yes, that will break down muscle for amino acids. However, we talked about this actually I think last episode maybe. When you eat, again, you feed, in your feeding in your eating window, that's restored. So, that's not a problem.

I think he's probably more thinking about he says to provide energy. So, yes, the body can turn to protein to create glucose if it's not metabolically flexible, everything I just said, because it has the option. So, if it's not metabolically flexible, you run out of liver glycogen, it can start burning fats, it can start doing ketones, but it also has the option of actually still trying to go the sugar route. And to do that, it will break down muscle into amino acids to create blood sugar, which is not something we want. But that is why I think a lot of people get stuck in that phase. Like I just said with Cate Shanahan’s, talking about people having hypoglycemia problems. The solution to that is becoming fat adapted, and then it shouldn't as much be a problem because your body will be switching to fats rather than trying to make carbs from amino acids.

Gin Stephens: Also, one other thing I thought you were going to say and you didn't. When you're exercising, you can get glycogen stored from your muscle as well. There's glycogen stored there that can fuel your muscles.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's actually the primary fuel for them.

Gin Stephens: Right. Running out of glucose in the liver, he mentions, but you've got some glycogen in your muscles already too.

Melanie Avalon: So, locally, the glycogen in your muscles will be feeding those muscles. The hypoglycemia symptoms will probably come in from the liver, that would be the thing that's doing that. So, that process of like, “Oh, let's break down muscle to create blood sugar,” that would probably be liver dependent, I'm guessing.

And then, his thing about exercise at the end of a fast empties your liver and actually trains your body to be fat adapted. I do think we see pretty well a lot of people when they do exercise at the end of a fast, I think a lot of people do find benefit from it, especially if they're struggling to get fat adapted because-- I don’t know. I'm not talking chronic cardio high-intensity endurance for a long time. But slow-moving exercise at the end of a fast, I think, would be a great way because if it's slow moving, it's telling your body, “Hey, we need long-term fuel here.” So, it's not going to be stimulating, like asking for quick blood sugar. I think slower movement, exercise type at the end of a fast like walking, yoga, things like that might be more supportive of making that switch.

Actually, to that point, one other thing I forgot to mention from that rat study was they actually found--and this is something that users of the Lumen device that I've talked about before, which is like a breath carb analyzer, have been finding. They often are finding that exercise during the fast or if they're doing a ketogenic diet, seems to switch them over to carb burning. And this study with the rats, they found that the ketogenic fasting rats when they injected them with epinephrine-- so, basically a stress response, to mimic exercise, the ketogenic rats actually released more blood sugar in response. They had a higher blood glucose response from exercise, which was really, really fascinating. They argue that that show that the rats were more metabolically flexible because they could generate more glucose on-demand from adrenaline aka stress or exercise. I don't know how I feel about that conclusion. It was really, really fascinating regardless.

Lastly, we didn't answer yet, Beth’s question about, “Do you need more carbs to fuel your exercise for glycogen stores?” So, there have been a lot of studies on people on-- more on, I've seen studies on ketogenic diets and athletes tend to adapt eventually to the ketogenic diet, and then they're not dependent on glycogen during exercise. Their glycogen stores typically don't really change that much during exercise because they're fat adapted. If you're not fat-adapted, you likely might need more carbs. And then a lot of high performing athletes just find that honestly, especially if it's like high intensity that they just need more carbs. And I think a lot of people, especially they've been doing ketogenic diets for a long time with fasting, maybe their energy's not quite there, they often find that adding in more carbs to their eating window really does help their performance.

Beth was talking about how she feels like she can't have the best of both worlds. Like if she brings in carbs, her endurance increases, but she doesn't lose the weight. I would suggest, Beth, if you haven't, trying a low-fat, high-carb diet, you might find that with intermittent fasting, I think that might give you the best of both worlds where you're going to be able to fuel that exercise with enough glycogen and then not having the fat with it, you might find that you lose weight.

Gin Stephens: I also wanted to point out that, Beth said her weight loss stalled. She said she was lower carb and then started to eat, what she said was “less clean,” and she had more endurance. Basically, she was lower carb, added some more carbs in, had more endurance. And then, she says my weight loss stalled. I think that she might possibly have had some confusion there with her weight because if you reintroduce carbs, your body can retain excess water with the extra carbs. As you have more glycogen, your body holds water with the glycogen. And also, when you're having more endurance, maybe she's building muscle, but I think you can't just strictly go by what the scale is saying.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Actually, I'm so glad you brought that up. I missed that. Also, she's correlating that she eats higher carbs which are less clean, and her weight loss stalls. It might not be the carbs making your weight loss stall, it might be the less clean aspect of it.

Gin Stephens: It's hard to know what she means by that and how much of a different change there was. But just we know that reintroducing carbs, whether they're “clean” or not, can lead to water retention, and it's not a bad thing and it's not fat gain, and it can make the scale go up. So, you can be like, “Oh my gosh, I'm gaining weight.” When really, you're not gaining fat. And it feels like your weight loss is stalling but really, it's just you have a different water balance than you had before.

Melanie Avalon: It could be that when she was eating clean, she wasn't having inflammation from the foods. And if she’s starting to eat these “less clean foods,” we don't know what they are, but inflammation can play a massive role. So, if you're taking in inflammatory foods, I would hardcore encourage you, Beth-- You said that when you eat cleaner that naturally makes you eat less carbs. You can eat high carb "clean,” not hard. Fruits are high in carbs, sweet potatoes, starches, rice. I would at 100% like dying to know. I'd love for you to try a “clean” especially since that seems to work for you a “clean,” whole foods, high-carb approach. See what happens. And if that doesn't work for low-fat version of that. So, things to experience.

I think a lot of people adapt to exercise with low carb diets, but some just never do. And they find that when they bring in the carbs, they're able to. And then, if you want to lose weight, looking at those types of carbs and what you're eating, and whether or not you're eating fat can play a huge, huge role.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And as you're switching carbs in and out, I would really use progress photos to see-- Somebody today in one of the Facebook groups posted a photo. And she's like, “I've only lost one pound and I'm so discouraged.” And she posted side-by-side photos, and it was like incredible the difference between the two. So, the scale doesn't tell the true story. If you thought you'd only lost one pound, that would be really discouraging. But you looked at her photos and you're like, “Man, look at how--” it was the same shirt she had in the other photo, and it was like loose as opposed to being skin tight. It was incredible the difference between the two photos. She's like, "What am I doing wrong?” What you're doing wrong is letting the scale be the Debbie Downer here. Sorry if your name is Debbie. I don't know. I feel bad for everybody named Debbie because when I say Debbie Downer-- [laughs] Don't let your scale be your downer when you're seeing results somewhere else.

Melanie Avalon: That's such a great point. All right. So, a lot there.

Gin Stephens: This is from Jessica. And her subject is Daylight Savings Time Changes. I would like to actually just propose let's just quit doing that. Let's just leave the time where it is. I don't like the switching. The switching drives me crazy. All right.

She says, “Hello, Gin and Melanie. I'm a huge fan of all your podcasts and listen to you weekly. I started IF in January of this year, and then found Delay, Don't Deny in March. Since then, I've joined all the Facebook groups, read all your books, and truly immersed myself in learning as much as I can about the benefits of fasting daily. Since January, I've lost 30 pounds and dropped from a size 14 pushing to a 16 to a size 10. I've also seen a dramatic decrease in inflammation and IBS symptoms.

My husband has also joined me on this journey, dropping from a size 40 waist to a 36. And together, we have adopted a 24, one-meal-a-day pattern and love it. This is truly the lifestyle we want to live long term.

As I stated before, I started my IVF journey in the winter. So, my question may seem a bit silly, but I'm wondering if you have any advice for successfully transitioning through the time change to the fall, winter seasons. I'm particularly worried about having less outdoor time and less sunlight hours, as these have been my go-to escapes while fasting.

I'm having a hard time envisioning what one meal a day will look like in the colder months. Right now, I love taking my Topo Chico outside and sipping on it throughout my lunch break, but that won't be as appealing when it's a rainy Oregon day outside. I always get a bit sad when it's dark in the morning and dark again by 6:00 PM. In the past, that sadness has been buffered by hearty foods and delicious beverages, and I'm nervous about falling into old habits. Thank you for taking the time to ease the mind of a worrier and obsessive planner. Jessica.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Jessica. So, this is a great question. And two big things we can tackle, the practical approaches to working with the time change and stuff like that, and then the mental aspect of everything she talks about. Okay, just from a light perspective, Jessica, get a Joovv if you don't have a Joovv. Because regulating your circadian rhythm I think is so important and one of the nice things about it is I consciously regulate my circadian rhythm every single day regardless of the time change or how light works in the world. I always am hacking it at home myself. So, in the morning, bright light exposure, I have a Daylight, like high-lux device that outputs really bright light. Those are often used to treat things like seasonal affective disorder. I'll put a link in the show notes to the one that I have. It's called Daylight.

And then, I run my Joovv devices for ambient lighting in the morning and evening, so that's red and near-infrared light. So, red is the type of light naturally found in the rising and setting sun. So, when you have it in the morning and in the evening, you're mimicking that rising and setting feeling regardless of what it actually is outside. I know most people who turn to Joovv for like skin health or muscle recovery or the metabolic benefits, honestly for the mood, it's my thing. I can't even express my gratitude I have for it.

And then, on top of that, I know this is controversial, but I would actually really, really suggest in the darker months getting a membership at a tanning bed. You want to get the UVB beds. So, those actually typically tend to be the cheaper beds because that's the wavelength that does make people burn. But it's the wavelength that is going to stimulate vitamin D production in your skin. And I'm talking about going for a minute. I'm not talking like-- you're not going in there to get tanned. You're just going in there to get some natural vitamin D exposure. You can weigh the cost benefits. I know skin cancer is a real thing, I don't take it lightly. But I think for a lot of people, especially if you're struggling with vitamin D levels, especially if you're struggling with mood, having exposure to UV light to generate vitamin D in your skin, especially in darker months, can be huge. So, I get a package in the winter. Proceed with caution. I'm not doctor, but I do really, really suggest that. I have some other things, but Gin, did you want to say some things?

Gin Stephens: Well, I was just going to say to Jessica or anybody else who is in a similar situation, a lot of people started fasting in January, especially after intermittent fasting was everywhere in December after Mark Mattson’s article came out in New England Journal of Medicine and then everyone was talking about intermittent fasting everywhere. So, I'm sure there's a lot of people who started right at the same time. I want you to just stop worrying right now, everybody who started at the same time. You will just gradually find that you start to crave different things, you will find that you start to just-- it'll happen. It happens gradually, just as the seasons change gradually.

For example, one day I'm drinking my San Pellegrino, and then the next day I'm like, “Ooh, I think I would like a hot mug of water,” a mug of hot water. We call it [unintelligible [00:59:31]. Have I told you that, Melanie, have you heard me call it that? Somebody in the group made that up. I can't remember who. I put it in Fast. Feast. Repeat., because I love it so much. So, you'll have a new routine, Jessica, instead of having Topo Chico outside, you'll have a mug of hot water and you'll be somewhere cozy. And it'll feel great because Christmas Carols will be on or something. You'll just have something to look forward to it.

Yeah, you probably will have more hearty foods, but I find my body craves those. I have a shift in what I want. When we stop the podcast for today, I'm going to go and break my fast, and I'm going to have-- I have some broccoli, and I have some hummus. I'm going to have that. It's going to be delicious. But if it were December, I would probably not be craving cold broccoli and hummus. I would want something maybe cozier, like you said, maybe a mug of soup or something like that. So, you'll make the shift. It'll happen gradually as the weather changes. I promise you, you can do it.

Melanie Avalon: You could also get super-duper excited about winter like I am. No, guys, it's funny, I have the opposite response. I'm like winter is the time to get in shape, get that cold therapy, get those longevity genes going, make your body stronger. Honestly, we could have a complete reframe here.

Gin Stephens: I'm just so sad when I have to put on pants, shoes.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. It's so funny how we're all so different. I literally dread the coming of summer and love the coming of winter. And then, people have the complete opposite response.

Gin Stephens: It's true.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all of the stuff that we like, that's at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram, we're @ifpodcast. I'm at @melanieavalon. Gin is at @ginstephens. Oh, and I forgot to mention. The Lumen thing I mentioned, I started a group for people who have that device or who have a Biosense Ketone Analyzer and that is called Lumen Lovers and Biosense Biohackers. You can also join my Facebook group, IF Biohackers. Anything else, Gin, you'd like to put out there? Get Fast. Feast. Repeat. at Target?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, well, in November, don't go out and get it yet because it's not there, although you can order it online from Target. They have it online, but anywhere that sells books I think you can get it in their online, but in the actual store, you can wait till November. I'm so excited.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, talk to you then. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 176 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Hi friends. As you guys know, we always say that when you eat is just as important as what you eat to fulfill your best wellness lifestyle. Guess what? The same thing goes for natural light. With our modern indoor lifestyles, it can be hard to get enough natural light from the sun but getting a good amount of healthy light is important for your health. That's why we use and adore Joovv Red Light Therapy products. They shine wavelengths of red and near-infrared light right in the comfort of your own home.

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Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode #176 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, if I sound tired, it's because I've just been on hold for an hour and a half with a company trying to get a product returned. So, I'm tired. Thank goodness for intermittent fasting or I would have needed like a couple meals and snacks in there.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know. That's when you really know.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: When things like that do happen, and you're doing fasting, it's like the complete opposite. You're focused and-- I don't know, it's very helpful.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's true. Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Is it resolved?

Gin Stephens: Well, no, but they're going to get to the bottom of it and send me an email. I'm like, “Okay, we'll see.”

Melanie Avalon: Our modern world of online delivery.

Gin Stephens: Here's the only thing I would like to say, I'm not going to mention any companies. But if you're ever shopping on one company, and this is not Amazon, it's a different one. So, not Amazon. If you're ever shopping on one company and it is their platform, but it is coming from another company but through their platform, do not do it. Go straight to the second company, do not order it through the other person. Because if you have a problem, neither company will-- They're like, “Oh, sorry, you need to talk to them. You need talk to them.” They're like, “Oops, that's them.” They're like, “Oops," Anyway, I got switched back and forth a whole bunch of times.

Melanie Avalon: It's actually like on Amazon ordering directly--

Gin Stephens: From a third-party seller?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: The good thing though is Amazon is really good about handling it.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I was going to say. They'll take care of you if the other company refuses to deal with it.

Gin Stephens: Yes, but this has just been very frustrating. So, the company that it's going to come from is who I would suggest you start with. Learned a very important lesson. I mean it's taken forever, so it's going to be fine. It's still this one bathroom. All this goes back to that one bathroom that we've been remodeling since January.

Melanie Avalon: Is this a guest bathroom?

Gin Stephens: It's a guest bathroom. Thank goodness. Although, funny story, the master bathroom is also unusable. So, we live in a four-bathroom house. And right now, we're showering in the other guest bathroom on the other side of the main floor because the people that lived in our house bought very fancy fixtures all the time. They didn't go to Home Depot and Lowe's and buy, I don't know, Delta faucets. They got super fancy faucets that you get through a designer that cost a bazillion dollars. But also, did you know that faucets and fixtures are not interchangeable. If our faucet was leaking in our master shower, you can't just swap it out. You have to get the same exact brand inside the wall because they have separate fixture attachments. I don't think I'm explaining it right. But yes.

Melanie Avalon: That makes sense. That's upsetting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, all the plumbers that have been coming, they're like, “We don't even know what brand this is," but you're going to have to dig it out and start over with. So, we can't shower in our master bathroom either because it's all disconnected. They're going to have to cut the tile, cut out the connection, and they're going to have to redo that. And then, they put this plate over it. So, hods, the cut they had to make. So, we're 50% in the bathroom department at the Stephens house, but thank goodness, we have extras, so it's really not a big deal. I'm getting exercise walking to the other side of the house for all my showers.

Melanie Avalon: That's true.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Anyway, eventually, actually, you're never finished in a house. I was going to say eventually we'll be done, but we won't. There'll be another project and another and another. That's just houses.

Melanie Avalon: I feel it's also 2020, a lot of people doing home projects and things like that.

Gin Stephens: It's really true. We had an architect come and draw up a screen porch edition and we've got a builder lined up. We have actually got two that are going to submit bids to us. And it's been two weeks, and we haven't even heard back from either of them. I think people are doing a lot of home remodeling right now because they're like, “If I'm going to be home, it's going to have to be amazing.” It'll all be done, so we're in good shape. I'm not complaining.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, all of my projects have been just going through all the stuff for my life. When quarantine-type stuff started, I was like, “Oh, in a month, I'll have gone through everything.” And still, here we are, I'm still doing it. So, it feels good, though.

Gin Stephens: What do you mean?

Melanie Avalon: I have so much memories, like photos and papers that I wanted to go through and throw out and make into scrapbooks, and then stuff from childhood. Just go through everything and try to cleanse my life. My habit now that I do every night that feels so good is, I only take about 15 minutes but I sit down, I turn on my Netflix, I watch something and I scrapbook, and I turn off all social media. And it feels so good. Feels really good. I recommend scrapbooking. You don't like scrapbooking though.

Gin Stephens: No.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: I don't. I do recommend putting aside social media, it's harder for me with coordinating the large groups. Because even though I have fabulous moderators, they're amazing, sometimes they have questions for me. I do sleep, so they figure it out. They're awesome. But if I'm awake, I'm not too far from social media just because I feel I should be accessible to them.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, that's the way I am pretty much 24/7 with the exception of, I was like, “I'm just going to take this time and I'm just not, and I'm going to scrapbook.” Actually, really the reason I like scrapbooking is a lot of people are like, “Oh, you should color,” or “You should do something.” But I always feel I need to be productive or creating something. So, I can't just watch the TV. I have to make something. I feel like I was productive.

Gin Stephens: See, I can. I can just watch TV. But I put my phone to the side. Every night, Chad and I watch TV together. We watch one episode of something and whatever series we're working our way through. I put the phone down, although Messenger still pops up if I need to chat with the moderators, but I don't moderate the groups unless there's like an emergency. A Facebook emergency, but other than that, yeah, I do put it aside. I can just sit and watch television.

Melanie Avalon: I wish I could. It's a goal.

Gin Stephens: Well, I can't listen to things on audio. So, we're all different, and I think that's okay. I have no goal to change.

Melanie Avalon: Well, with audio, I do other things during it. That's my problem, is I need to be-- I'm like addicted to multitasking.

Gin Stephens: See, I prefer to focus on one thing. I think that just explained a lot right there. I don't like multitasking.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I love it.

Gin Stephens: Whatever I'm doing, I am engaged in that.

Melanie Avalon: The only time I'm not multitasking is probably when I'm doing these shows, honestly. Yeah, doing these episodes is a relief because I don't multitask during it and I just take a moment.

Gin Stephens: Well, maybe if you realize the multitasking is stressing you out, you could try to focus on one thing at a time.

Melanie Avalon: It's the complete opposite.

Gin Stephens: It sounded like you were saying it was a relief to not be multitasking.

Melanie Avalon: Well, yes and no. I love multitasking, and it makes me feel good. Then, I feel I shouldn't be. So then, I won't, but then I want to. So, the best for me is just except that I like multitasking, but then also take these moments where I'm not multitasking to balance it out, like this show, for example. So, yeah. Can I share a really quick PSA?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, as you guys know, Gin and I are not fans of measuring things like ketones to evaluate your state of ketosis, especially urinary ketone strips, because we'd rather you focus on the practical implementation of the fast and not whether or not your ketones are a certain level. That's been the messaging since day one, and I still stand by that. That said, for those people who are interested in doing a really deep dive into measuring their state of ketosis because that actually at the same time is also a really big passion of mine. I think it's actually very incredible and valid, if you are the type, that's your goal. It's not about the fasting. It's not about the lifestyle. It's because you're trying to literally hack something in your life with a ketogenic diet, whether it's like a health condition or something specific like that.

The reason I'm saying all of this is I recently had Trey Suntrup from a company called Biosense. They make the ketone breath analyzer, which their studies show, it's pretty comparable to what you can learn from a blood analyzer, like pricking your finger, with some exceptions. You'd have to listen to episode for the whole nuance. The reason I'm saying all this is, I'm actually really big fan of that, I have a Biosense device. And I realized after releasing that episode that a lot of people thought that I personally think you should never measure ketones, which is not at all what I personally think. So, this is just a really brief PSA that if that is of interest to you, I support it. Melanie does. Come into my community, my separate community from this show for that, so I'll put a link in the show notes to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast episode where I talked about it, and also my Facebook group which is IF Biohackers. So, if that's of interest to you, definitely join me there. I just wanted to share that really quick PSA.

For normal people, not normal people, but if you're not the crazy biohacking, wanting to measure the ketones, like that whole thing, just keep on keeping on. Don't stress about ketones please. And please, please, don't get urinary ketones ships because we could talk for an hour about why those are very misleading. For people who are new to the show, new to this whole world, basically, when you first start entering into ketosis through intermittent fasting or a ketogenic diet or something like that, at the beginning, your body starts creating a lot of ketones. And there's actually three types of ketones, which is what I learned in that episode, you've got to listen to it. Your body starts creating a lot of them and in the initial beginning, it's not quite adept at using them because it's just not, and a lot of them get excreted through the urine.

So, at the beginning, people will often see something on their urinary test strips if they're using those, but as you continue into ketosis, it all changes. Like I said, there's actually three types of ketones, BHB, acetoacetate, and acetone. And all of that gets nuanced and changes around the more you get ketogenic and your body gets adapted to fasting. So, things are basically really complicated and it's very helpful to have a very comprehensive understanding if it's something that you do want to explore, which is again, why I wanted to have that episode on my other show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, any comments on that, Gin?

Gin Stephens: No. I think that was great. And thank you for clearing all that up.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. All right. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, to start things off, we have some feedback. This feedback comes from Trina, the subject is “New.” Was that the entire subject, do you think? I don't know. She says, “Hi, Gin. I'm just becoming interested in IF since entering early menopause and having difficulty losing weight. I'll admit hearing Gin reference her previous weight at 210 on episode nine,” that was episode nine of our show? Wow. Long time ago.

Gin Stephens: I've probably said it on lots of episodes.

Melanie Avalon: “Was very revealing, but more so that transparency encouraged me. I'm currently 48 years old and I'm 209,” so very similar to Gin what your weight was, “at a very low point. I'm starting with your earlier podcasts, so I'm aways from your current podcast. Just know that I'll be stalking you guys to get caught up. Just wanted to say hi, and thanks.” I wonder when she'll get caught up to this episode. But, yeah, I thought that was a nice little thing to share.

Gin Stephens: Thank you, Trina. And you're right. Yeah, I was 210. And it's really hard to believe that was me, even to me, because it's been so long ago. That was 2014, so it's been over six years since I was at that weight. You can do it, Trina. Be patient with your body if you're entering early menopause because that's not a season of our lives known for easy weight loss. Just be prepared that while you're going through the hormonal shifts of menopause, it might take some time to see the weight loss that you're looking for.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, I think that's great.

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Judy. Judy says, “Hello. What fasting app do you recommend? And I had been doing intermittent fasting for several weeks. I felt better, lost a few pounds, and then sort of fell off the wagon. And I'm finding it hard to get back on. How do you suggest getting restarted when you break the cycle of intermittent fasting? Thanks.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, two great questions. So, fasting apps, do you recommend a go-to one or do you not? I remember you talked about it in your book, but you didn't mention one, right?

Gin Stephens: I did have a go-to app, but now I don’t. My go-to app was the one that my son Cal made, he made it for me. It was Window Intermittent Fasting Tracker. He made it for me back in 2016. At that time, 2016, there are like two apps out there. And one of them you could preset for 16:8 or 24, and that was it. And they also had maybe a couple of apps that let you track your fast, but I was wanting to track my eating window. So, I was like, "I need you to make me an app. I want to track my window." And so, it was called “Window,” not surprisingly. And over time, he made it better and better and better. It was fabulous.

And then a year ago, he was graduating from Georgia Tech and getting ready to start a full-time job at Airbnb, which is where he is working now. And he was also about to set out on this amazing cruise with his now-wife, and he was going to be proposing and he was really just kind of done with having to monitor an app all the time. He provided fabulous customer support, by the way, but he sold the app. Long story short, sold it to another company, and they have since changed the app a lot. And also, they have a new pricing structure. So, people who used it for a long, long time, found that it was really different.

I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for the Window app, but we're no longer affiliated with it. And so, I hate to recommend it just because some of the changes they made, it's very clear were made by people who don't understand intermittent fasting. Does that make sense? Some of the wording like, “Choose your intermittent fasting diet,” kind of wording. It no longer fits with my mindset towards fasting, if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: I was actually really, really curious if that was the case or if that had happened. So, it's really interesting.

Gin Stephens: They changed it. Interestingly, they didn't offer to stay connected to me, because if they had, I would have been willing to give them lots of great advice and also promoting it in the communities. But they did not, which is fine. They bought the app, they can do what they want with it. But some of the changes were not changes that were well received by the people who had been using it for years. That's all I'm going to say.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, actually, we've had quite a few apps approach us about partnering with the show and there's not really like one app, I think, that we endorse. And oftentimes, it's actually ties back into what I was saying at the beginning about measuring ketones and things like that, especially with ketones people will think, “Oh, this measure means this,” or, “This means this.” Some of the apps will say like, “Oh, at this time, you're entering autophagy,” and it's like, how do they know that?

Gin Stephens: They've added that to the Window app as well.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?

Gin Stephens: I think so. I hear from people. I still have the original version because I have mine set to not update. So, if I ever wanted to use it again, I could still use the old version. And I'm not anti the Window app. So, nobody think that I am, I will always have a very soft spot for it. But sometimes people think I'm still affiliated with it because I talked about it in Delay, Don't Deny. And I want to make it clear that I'm not, that's all I'm saying.

Melanie Avalon: This is like the episode of making things clear. [laughs] Making it clear where we stand on things. Oh, my goodness, that's really funny. The only app I've actually used, and I haven't used it extensively, and I don't know if they've made updates and I don't know your thoughts, Gin, but I have used Zero before.

Gin Stephens: I say I haven't used any of the others. That's the thing. I've never used them. I had no need to. And even right now, I have no need to because if I wanted to use an app, I would just use my version of Window the original that. It's not the original, he updated it, so it's the version that it was when he handed it over. That's what I still have.

Melanie Avalon: I'm impressed that you've been able to maintain not updating it. I feel like the iPhone is really good at sneaking in.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I have that turned off, the automatic updates.

Melanie Avalon: I do too. I don't know, but I feel they find ways.

Gin Stephens: They're not updating that. If they ever did, well, okay, but it would be lost to me, but I hope they don't because I feel like almost like I'm the mother of that app, too.

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's so interesting.

Gin Stephens: And now it's grown up and doing its own thing, so I can no longer control it. It's doing its own. Living its own life. There's a nice analogy for you.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. Well, so we're not that much help there. But now our thoughts on fasting apps.

Gin Stephens: Well, the second part of her question.

Melanie Avalon: Her second part about getting back on the wagon. I guess we should first address, is she falling off the wagon? I think you talked about that in your book, didn't you, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I do. I have a whole chapter. “There is no wagon.”

Melanie Avalon: And why is there no wagon?

Gin Stephens: Well, because intermittent fasting is a lifestyle, and I want you to commit to-- Judy and anyone listening, I want you to commit to, “Hey, I live in intermittent fasting lifestyle.” And so, here's what happens when you're in the cycle of wagons and on and off the wagon. You get off the wagon, and you're like, “Well, I quit. I'm not doing that.” And then, you get in this cycle of, I'm not doing it, but then you are doing it, but then I'm not doing it. Instead, think of, you are an intermittent faster and some days you'll have shorter fasts. And some days, you'll have longer fasts. If you have some days where you only fast for 12 hours because you get up and eat breakfast at 8:00 AM and then you stop eating by 8:00 PM, and you had a 12-hour eating period that day, you still had a 12-hour fast. So, if you just think of it like that and it breaks the cycle of off and on, that can really just help you free up the mental space to like, “Okay, I didn’t quit. I'm not off the wagon. I didn't fall off. I just had some longer eating windows, some shorter fasts, and I'm ready to tighten up that eating window.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's so important, so key. Honestly, my suggestion is just jump back in like the way you would at the beginning.

Gin Stephens: People who had been doing intermittent fasting very sporadically, and they weren't really doing it and then maybe the whole quarantine derailed people completely, and they just completely stopped from the stress. And so, a lot of people who had been experienced intermittent fasters and then quit, found that doing the 28-Day FAST Start from Fast. Feast. Repeat., helped them get their mind back in the game. Because the key is, you've got to get your mind back in the game and your body has to get back in the game. If you've been off intermittent fasting for a long time, it sounds easy to say just start back but your body's going to have to be retrained. Start fresh if you need to, but once you make that mental shift, I am doing an intermittent fasting lifestyle, then you never have to tell yourself I've fallen off the wagon ever again. You're just, “Well, today, I had a shorter fast and that's okay.”

Melanie Avalon: I do have an idea that I think some people like to do, I like to do this, but I've also read that you shouldn't do this. So, I'm actually really curious to hear your thoughts on it. But that's for with any new “habit,” although not that intermittent fasting is a habit. Like we just said, it's a lifestyle and you're not on or off. But with something like that, I love having my calendar, and I really love Lisa Frank.

I have these big sticker books of Lisa Frank stickers. And I love putting them each day on the calendar if I'm trying some new habit or if it was a dietary approach, or maybe it's a new window, every day. It's the Streaks idea, like the Streaks app that a lot of people have. I find it really motivating and encouraging and I think it shows me patterns really well in my life. But I've also read that you shouldn't do that because then it can make people nervous that they're going to break their streak. But I personally find it really helpful. Do you have thoughts on stuff like that, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, when you think about that, the 28-Day FAST Start is a similar idea. I'm encouraging people to give yourself 28 days to let your body adjust and every day you're doing it. So, I completely agree with the mindset of getting into a habit, then you just keep doing it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And I think it can be hard to remember-- well, not hard to remember, but when you see it, especially in your bright, spark Lisa Frank stickers, especially if you've been doing it a few days, you can look and automatically see, “Wow, it feels good. Oh, look at me.”

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I'm a schoolteacher. Those kind of things are right up my alley. I could make you a sticker chart at any moment. I could break one out. [laughs] Do not question sticker charts to an elementary teacher. Ah-ha. I'll make you a sticker chart.

Melanie Avalon: It's also really great if you find the perfect calendar which, friends, I have found the perfect calendar. I now order it every single year. I'll put link to it in the show notes. I forget the brand, but it's pretty much like-- it's some artists but every month is an animal. I'm a sucker for colors and glitter as you might imagine with the Lisa Frank reference, but it's just the most beautiful, motivating, inspiring colors ever. So, if you get that calendar and get some Lisa Frank stickers, it's a very motivational thing for your kitchen.

Gin Stephens: And does anyone know my thoughts about glitter?

Melanie Avalon: I'm guessing Gin does not like glitter.

Gin Stephens: I don't like glitter.

Melanie Avalon: You don't like glitter?

Gin Stephens: Oh my God. Glitter is like from Satan.

Melanie Avalon: Ask me what is my favorite thing?

Gin Stephens: Is it glitter?

Melanie Avalon: I love glitter.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I was a gifted teacher and I let the children do anything in the entire world that did not break the law. If it was not against the law or the school rules, they could literally do anything they wanted in my classroom creatively, except for one thing.

Melanie Avalon: No glitter.

Gin Stephens: No glitter. A new kid, I remember one day, she's like, “Do you have any glitter?” And the other kids were like, “She does not. She does not have glitter.” [laughs] I'm like, “I got anything else you want. I got everything up in my tubs up on the cabinets." I had anything, you name it, I could pull it out. But there was no glitter.

Melanie Avalon: Can I share one of my favorite memories? Which would have been probably one of your worst memories?

Gin Stephens: Did it involve getting glitter everywhere? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: In college, I went with my two best girlfriends to a Kesha concert, who we know-- Kesha is a big glitter fan. You can tell this was before my Beauty Counter days. I think we took hairspray. I think it was hairspray. It was. Oh, my goodness, Gin, I have changed so much. We took hairspray and we sprayed our entire bodies with hairspray and then we took glitter and we just threw it on our body so that we were just like walking glitter.

Gin Stephens: Oh my God, I would not even allow you into my house. I would have to hose you down in the neighbor's yard. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh. I'm going to send you a picture from my scrapbook.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, make a scrapbook page of that one. That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: I do have a scrapbook page of that one, so I will send to you.

Gin Stephens: Sharpies. Those are my things. I had so many Sharpies, you wouldn’t believe it. Sharpies and markers and paper.

Melanie Avalon: Did you have those scented markers?

Gin Stephens: Mr. Sketch?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: That's the brand. Yep. Mr. Sketch.

Melanie Avalon: Do they still make those?

Gin Stephens: They do still make Mr. Sketch. I didn't like them though. I liked them when I was a kid. But as a grownup, I didn't, because I realized I didn't like fake smelly things.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. Now, I would not. They would not be allowed in the apartment, but in childhood--

Gin Stephens: And all the children over there huffing the markers. Yeah, no, we didn't do that. I did not have those in my classroom. But I did that as a child.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. I have a story for you. So, about a year ago, I was doing a lot of IV chelation for my mercury toxicity and it was creating bruises in my veins, which was a little bit upsetting. And then, one day, my doctor pulled out this device and told me it would fix the bruising. I was a little skeptical, especially because it looked like a very intense device that could do very intense things, and this was my delicate veins we were talking about. But shockingly, he applied it to my veins and in the next few days, the bruising was gone. Flash forward a few months later, I was seeing a chiropractor. I've always had this really intense knot in my upper right shoulder. And then to my surprise, he pulled out the same device and used it on my shoulder and the effects were incredible. We're talking shoulder pain, gone.

I thought that this was clearly a medical device only available to doctors and chiropractors. Turns out, it's actually available to the general public. Oh, hey, yep, we're talking about a product called Theragun. The founder, Dr. Jason, has a heart of gold. He actually developed it after suffering from a traumatic motorcycle accident. Nothing on the market seemed to help him so he decided to take things into his own hands. He created Theragun to help people feel better naturally. In 2014, he met with the New England Patriots, and they immediately requested units for the entire team. That's how effective this device is.

It's scientifically calibrated with a specific combination of depth, speed, and power to release your deepest muscle tension. What I really love is that it comes with a lot of different attachments, so you can really tailor it to any part of your body. I actually used it right before recording this because that muscle spot was acting up. And right now, it feels so good. And super exciting, Theragun now has the all-new Gen 4, which has a proprietary brushless motor that's so quiet, you might actually wonder if it's even on. Think about the equivalent of an electronic toothbrush in the sound department.

And you can try it risk-free for 30 days. Yep, if you're not satisfied, you'll get all of your money back. I really believe there's no substitute for this Theragun Gen 4. It has an OLED screen, personalized Theragun app and the quiet and power that you need. It starts at only $199. You can go to theragun.com/ifpodcast right now and get your Gen 4 Theragun today. And I really recommend getting it today while they have it in stock. Once again, theragun.com/ifpodcast. All right, now back to the show.

So, our next question comes from, Jen. It's a long one, are you ready? So, the subject is, “Modified ADF Update Number of Meals Versus Overall Nutritional Content.” Okay, this was long, but I think it has a really good question in it.

So, Jen says, “Hi, ladies, I recently discovered your great podcast and I binge-listened to all the episodes to catch up on everyone to see if my question has been answered before writing in, but I don't think it has, at least not quite for my specific question. Regarding alternate day fasting, I'm wondering if it's the number and/or timing of the meals on the up days that matters most or is it the overall nutritional intake? With one large meal that is roughly equivalent in terms of nutritional content to two smaller meals spread over a longer eating window be equally protective of metabolic rate?

Some background on me, I'm a woman in my late 30s with a normal BMI and I had been doing low carb, high fat as well as a prolonged stint of keto with IF 16:8 throughout with some days off on the weekends for the past three years, or so I thought. After listening to this podcast, I now know I wasn't fasting clean or even really fasting at all, to be honest, because I was just putting just a splash of heavy whipping cream or unsweetened plant-based creamer in my coffee because based on what others had told me, I was still fasting as long as I was consuming under 50 calories and not using any sweetener. I was also drinking a bunch of unsweetened flavored dessert teas like vanilla bean, macaron, and butterscotch Blondie, as well as sipping broths and lots of unsweetened fruit-flavored seltzer like Lacroix, bone broth, bulletproof coffee, [unintelligible [00:32:58] brood cacao. I was sipping at all throughout my fast because I thought if I had no sweeteners, or just that, it was okay. I always had to be drinking something to quell my hunger and it was a struggle to barely make it to 16 hours.

And on the weekends, I often couldn't even make it that far. I now know why. And on top of that, despite my supposed fasting and low carb, high fat and keto efforts, I lost zero weight and even gained a couple pounds.” Before we go on, do you want to comment on that at all, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that is so much like the way I was early on before I read The Obesity Code. I was the same exact way because we were all just caught up in the calories in, calories out mindset. And if I wasn't eating a breakfast biscuit, I was fasting. And so, yeah, and just like Jen said, it was so hard. It was so hard. It was a struggle. I was basically white knuckling it every single day, so I get it.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting because when I first started intermittent fasting, I was not clean fasting, and it wasn't hard.

Gin Stephens: Well, I wonder if it has to do with-- I mean, you also were not obese. You probably didn't have crazy insulin resistance and your insulin levels were probably lower in general. Just overall.

Melanie Avalon: I honestly have no idea.

Gin Stephens: Well, also you were very young. So, that's really important. I was in my 40s and obese, and I think that's a huge factor.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm not saying that to challenge the clean fast, because fast forward to now, I'm like, completely an advocate of it. I just find that really interesting. I was just thinking about the stuff she was drinking because I was thinking about what I was drinking, which was flavored teas and stevia and all of that stuff. The thing actually that is interesting, my timeline was-- I think I probably cleaned up my food. I went paleo. That's when I cleaned up the fast and it was just all so beneficial.

Gin Stephens: And see mine was the opposite. I cleaned up the fast which made my body just naturally cleaned up the food after cleaning up the fast.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting how that happens. So, I was low carb for quite a while and then I added intermittent fasting, and I was doing one meal a day, and I heard about paleo from Robb Wolf, who I just interviewed, friends. I already said that I think on the show, but I interviewed him. It was crazy. I cried, almost. But in any case, I heard about paleo. I literally remember the day I heard about it. Gin, did you ever have like your crazy diet friend who would do all the crazy diets with you?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay.

Gin Stephens: I did not. Nobody was as crazy as me. Nobody.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I did. Shout out to Ben MP. So, I remember we would always do all the things together. He actually did the one meal a day with me when we first did it. I remember he was like, “Have you heard of this thing called paleo? I'm thinking of trying it.” And that's when I looked it up. It's so interesting because, Gin, people think with the fast eating, they're like, “Oh, what difference can it make cleaning up the fast?” That was my literal first thought. I was like, “What difference can it make cleaning up my food? I'm already fasting. I'm already doing one meal a day. Not really going to make much of a difference.”

Gin Stephens: Huge difference.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's interesting how we have similar-- for me the food and you the fasting, similar experiences of that whole experience of not appreciating the difference that might make and then realizing and just wanting to tell all the people.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. That's really it. The fact that we're not trying to take away your delicious sipping broths just because we're mean. Or we're not suggesting you gravitate towards real food just because it's amazing how different you feel.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, if it didn't feel absolutely so much more amazing on the other side, we wouldn't be advocating it. And to the food point, you find when people start fasting, they start craving more natural foods. The same, I feel, if you clean up your food, you start craving those foods and they taste so much more delicious. Anyway, back to her question.

She says, “I started to clean fast this past spring, just plain filtered water with the occasional unsweetened plain green tea or plain black coffee and was blown away by how much easier IF was with the clean fast and how great I felt.” Oh, my goodness, we just said this. So, she said, “Before I just thought IF is a way to lose weight. But now, I'm a convert for life for all the benefits I now know about, thanks to this podcast.

I also finally dropped those last stubborn seven pounds and got to my goal weight that has been eluding me for nearly eight years now." Yay." I can now easily breeze well past 16 hours with a clean fast and I've naturally settled to fasting 20 to 22 hours or longer daily with one meal a day. I basically break my fast when I feel hungry, which almost always is at least 20 hours into the fast. I don't check my eating window. I just eat one meal a day to satiety, which typically naturally results in a three to five-hour eating window. I feel best when I eat in the early to mid-afternoon and finish eating by 5:00 or 6:00 PM because I don't sleep well if I'm full and I feel sluggish the next day if I've eaten too late the day before. Because of my changing work schedule, however, I do one to two longer fast weekly of around 40 to 44 hours each, and they are so easy, and I feel absolutely great when I do them.

These longer fasts are usually spaced two days apart. So, I guess it's like doing ADF part of the week with one meal a day the rest of the week. For example, I'll typically have Monday and Wednesdays as down days where I eat nothing because I'm at work all day, and Tuesday and Thursday will be my up days. Friday through Sunday, I do standard one meal a day after fasting around 20 to 22 hours with occasional shorter 18-hour fast depending on how I'm feeling that day. The issue is that my up days on Tuesdays and Thursdays are still one meal a day. Not because I'm purposely trying to be restrictive, that's just what is comfortable and feels natural for my body. But after listening to this podcast and hearing Gin talk about ADF and the importance of eating at least two, and possibly three meals on up days to maintain metabolic rate, I'm concerned that I'm doing damage to my metabolism.

As an aside, I didn't even know what ADF was until I listened to this podcast. So, I didn't know that what I was doing with my longer weekly fast was even a thing. After hearing Gin talk about the importance of the refeeding on the up days, I've tried to eat at least two meals and extend my window, but I just can't. Mentally, I'm there, it makes total sense to me. But physically, I just can't. Is this part of the appetite correction Gin often talks about? I get so satiated with my first meal and one meal a day in general that I feel completely full and satisfied for the rest of the day. I've tried eating a smaller first meal on my up day, so I can eat more later, but that doesn't help. And I end up eating even less during the day, then if I eat into full satiety to begin with. If I were to eat a second meal, I'd have to extend my window so long that it basically blends right into my bedtime or I'd even have to stay up later just to accommodate a second meal somewhat comfortably, but then I'd be uncomfortable at bedtime.

My most recent up day, I forced myself to eat a second meal. It was really small, and it truly felt like a chore and obligation the entire time. I felt physically unwell, overly full, had terrible sleep. I felt sluggish and bogged down and uncomfortably full, yet paradoxically hungry the entirety of the next day, it was awful.”

"So, again," I think this is coming to her question, “Is it the number and/or timing of the meals on the up days that matters most? Or is it the overall nutritional intake? I don't like to use the term 'calories.' Is it okay for me to just eat one big satisfying meal on my up day if the overall nutritional intake would be equivalent or close to the two smaller meals I would otherwise have to force myself to eat? I'm an omnivore and don't follow a popular diet though in general, I try to avoid heavily processed foods and eat lots of vegetables and relatively lower carb than the standard American diet, but it's not low carb.

Even before listening to this podcast and having ADF/5:2 on my radar, I naturally ate more on my up days than on my typical one-meal-a-day days, but it was still a one-meal-a-day pattern and still finishing by around 6:00 PM. I don't count calories. I don't track macros. I just eat to satiety. And on these up days after a 40 to 44-hour fast, sometimes after 48 hours, I just naturally eat more than I do on a standard one-meal-a-day day where I fasted for around 20 to 22 hours. Is that okay? Does that protect my metabolic rate? Or do I need to eat at least two distinct meals over an extended window?

The thought of grazing tiny snacks all day as another option sounds miserable. When I eat, I want to eat. Skipping my weekly 40-hour fast is also not an option because it's a necessity given my work schedule and work environment on those days. Honestly, I don't want to skip those longer fasts anyways because they make me feel great. Thank you so much, ladies. I've learned exponentially more about IF from you these past three months than I have the past three years trying to do this on my own. Happy fasting, Jen.”

And then she does say, “Unrelated, but I came across a review article on fasting, COVID, and the immune system you two might find interesting.” I remember there were some questions about that in the previous episode, and we'll put a link to it in the show notes. It's called Intermittent Fasting, a Possible Priming Tool for Host Defense Against Sars-Cov-2 Infection: Crosstalk Among Calorie Restriction, Autophagy, and Immune Response. So very exciting.

Gin Stephens: That one's come up a bunch in the fasting groups, by the way, people have shared it.

Melanie Avalon: What's been the general conversation around it?

Gin Stephens: Well, it's a theory. They're like, “We think this could be helpful.” That's basically spoiler alert. That's what the article says. “We think fasting is probably great. That's it.” It just has to do with how fasting strengthens the immune system. And so therefore, they think that it would be a helpful tool.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. We'll put links to that in the show notes. So back to Jen’s question. I know that was really long, but I feel like this might be something a lot of people-- do you find people experience this, Gin? They're doing an ADF-ish type thing and then on their up days, they're just not feeling that urge or that need to-- Well, I guess we should first address her question for the up day, does it have to be meals spread out throughout the day? Or can it still be in a one-meal-a-day pattern?

Gin Stephens: I feel so very strongly about this that I would recommend not having the longer fast at all if you cannot have a refeed. I would not do it. Especially if you're somebody like Gin, who's at her ideal weight because the whole point of doing a longer fast and protecting your metabolism through the longer fast-- of course, the up day is protective of metabolism, but also you need to be well fueled during the longer fast.

So, let's imagine that you're at your ideal weight, our bodies, especially women, we need a certain amount of body fat. I was looking it up the other day because somebody was talking about their level of body fat and it was really low to me, and I looked and it was really low, for a woman. We have a certain percentage that we should be just for fat reserves, which is more than men should have. And so, when you start getting into the athlete level of fat percentage, our body is going to start to freak out, especially if she's in her late 30s. I don't know if she ever plans to have children, I don't know. But we certainly as women in our fertile years do not want to get into the state where our bodies are like, “Oh, gosh, we are over-restricting.” And so, I think that would be the perfect storm of, for your body. I mean, the bad one, the bad perfect storm because you're doing these longer fasts, you're at a really good weight already, and you're not willing to do a sufficient refeed, and you want to stick to one meal a day. That sounds like a really bad scenario for your body. And I would not recommend that at all.

If you want to do a longer fast, then you're going to have to have a longer window the next day to fit in more food because think about it from your body's point of view, not a lot of fat reserves, fasting over 40 hours, sometimes up to 48 hours twice a week, and then the next day only eating one meal. So, that's not going to send the, “Hey, we're well-fueled," message to your body.” It's not, it just isn't.

So, you're going to have to figure out a way to send that message to your body, and saying that it's not possible to-- you said skipping my weekly 40-plus hour fast is not an option because it's a necessity given my work schedule. I don't think any work schedule is going to expect people to not eat. You may feel really great working in the fasting state, and I get that. You're going to have to figure out a way to fuel your body.

I would not recommend one meal a day after the longer fasts, especially for someone at their ideal weight.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really glad we included this question. I think that's a really good message to put out there. I bet a lot of people probably wish they had Jen's problem, but I agree with everything that you said.

Gin Stephens: So, you really want to fill your body well. And it's tricky because we hear that in the groups, people were like, “Well, I'm just not hungry. I don't want to force myself to eat because isn't that against everything you've said?” Yes, it really does sound to be against everything we've said, forcing yourself to eat. But the thing is, is that you need to give yourself a longer period of time to let your appetite wake back up because if you over-restrict and over-restrict and over-restrict, that is not good for your body long term.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so it sounds like, Jen, your two potential options here are continuing to do your ADF but just trying to still work to find a way to have those adequate refeeding days, or just do a one-meal-a-day pattern, every day.

It reminded me of something else tangential, but related that I'd like to touch on, if I may because she was talking about how the difference between two meals versus one meal at once. I'm reading right now, Siim Land is coming out with a new book. I've had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The first episode I had him on was all about autophagy actually. So, if you'd like to learn all about that, definitely check that out. But his new book is called Stronger By Stress. Incredible. It's incredible. Well, knowing Siim Land, it's very, very intense and long and lots of information, but he does a really, really good job of providing a very thorough overview of-- The book is about the different ways that we can experience hormetic stress to make us stronger.

So, things like fasting, cold exposure, sauna, plant toxins, as well as healthy emotional stress. So, reframing our mindset and our perspective and he talks about things like stoicism, and it's really a valuable resource. But the point of this was is, we get a lot of questions on this show about people who are exercising and wanting to build muscle, and are concerned that they can't build adequate muscle with intermittent fasting. And he actually talks about that a lot and I found it really valuable because I learned a lot. So, people think with like protein, for example, that we can only-- we're often told that we need to eat protein constantly throughout the day to support muscle, that's been the general message. But what we know is that as long as you eat an adequate amount of protein within 24 hours of catabolism, so muscle breakdown, you can have adequate muscle build-up. The way this ties into the one versus two is, however, we have a gene called mTOR and it's what stimulates that growth state and that recovery state so actually when we're talking about this refeeding day, that's really important, part of that is evolving into a simulation, which is telling the body to grow and recover and build itself up again.

The way it works though, it's really interesting. When you eat a meal, especially high in protein, it stimulates mTOR, but it caps out. So, if you have a meal with decent amount of protein, you will stimulate up to a certain amount of mTOR expression. If you keep eating protein in that same meal, it's not like you stimulate mTOR more, it's kind of just it's on, which is totally fine, and you can still get all the protein you need but if you want to specifically build muscle and practice intermittent fasting, you can. But you probably need to have a longer window with two or even three separate meals with protein because when you do that, you'll stimulate mTOR multiple times for the muscle growth, if that makes sense. I just thought that was actually really, really valuable. And it just sparked my memory because you're talking about two versus one meal.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, there's definitely a difference.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so this is just for people who are like bodybuilders. If you want to have muscle growth and do intermittent fasting, you probably want to have a longer window with two or three meals that are stimulating mTOR rather than having it all in one meal.

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Gin Stephens: All right, so we have a question from Lauren. And it says, “Hi ladies, I love your podcast. I've been clean fasting since May 8, and I'm down 20 pounds.” Wow, that is a lot in such a short time. That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, by the way, her subject is another toothpaste question.

Gin Stephens: Another toothpaste question. All right. Yeah, today on the Ask a Moderator in the Delay, Don't Deny group, there were two toothpaste questions one after the other. I wanted to say, “Look up there.” [laughs] Scroll up. All right, so trust me, I've seen them all. She says, “I started my fitness journey in 2014. I've never seen results like I am seeing with IF. In respect to clean fasting, I would like to stop using Colgate toothpaste. I have two questions. I have heard on the podcast that just thinking about food or having anything including toothpaste in your mouth could spike insulin levels, especially if it's anything sweet tasting. Now, this might be weird, but I'm a huge salty snack person. I used plain baking soda and water to brush my teeth for the first time and my brain said, ‘Oh, this is something salty.’ Do you think I'm spiking my insulin levels because my body now thinks I'm eating something salty?”

If I could just pop right in and answer that one, our brain doesn't respond to salt or mineral tastes the same way it does to something sweet. So, the answer would be no. All right.

“I did feel hungry right after this, but I was also just about to break my fast regardless, so it was hard to tell. Second question, I find that the baking soda a little too bland, not feeling refreshed. Is adding one to two drops of organic peppermint oil into my homemade toothpaste okay? Or do you think this is not respecting a clean fast?

Bottom line. If my salty tooth is maybe spiking insulin and the peppermint oil is maybe questionable, is it even worth using homemade toothpaste or should I just use regular old Colgate? So far, IF has been effortless. Not sure why I'm overthinking this one so much. Hope this email wasn't too long and hope to hear from you both soon. Love the podcast. Thanks for all your support.”

Melanie Avalon: Well, first of all, I think it's funny she said she hopes it wasn't too long. We just read a novel. So, a few different questions in here, but Gin already answered the salt one. And if you think about it, oftentimes people doing fasting or particularly ketogenic diets with fasting, it's often very much encouraged that they might need electrolytes during the fast which is often a salty thing. So, don't have to worry about the salt.

This is just theorizing and talking. If some reason, a person does-- she says she feels it made her hungry. What are your thoughts on that?

Gin Stephens: I also have learned that what people say made me “hungry.” A lot of people have a lot of definitions for what they mean by made me hungry. A stomach growl, for example. So, it's hard to answer. A stomach growl is not technically hunger. That's a mechanical action. My stomach just growled, I think, right after I said that. My stomach growled. Does it mean I'm hungry? No.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. In any case, short answers with salt, it's not a problem. But it's for adding one to two drops of organic peppermint oil, I think that's completely fine. We've talked about peppermint before on this podcast and I always with peppermint have found it-- I use homemade peppermint breath spray every day, I find it kills my appetite. I've read studies where it reduces appetite, for you, but does it make you hungry?

Gin Stephens: No, it's fine for me. My brain does not associate it with a timed release of insulin. I use peppermint Burt's Bees all day long. So, that might be why my brain does not see it as, “Oop, calories are coming. We need insulin.” But I know people, even some of the moderators of our Facebook groups are like, “Yeah, I cannot do the vial drops or the peppermint oil.” It makes them shaky and so that's the sign that they've had an insulin response. That's why I consider peppermint oil to be in the gray area, as far as that goes.

Melanie Avalon: So, it's a case really of do you see how you respond to it? I will say just a little quick toothpaste PSA. Fun fact that might blow your mind if you didn't know it. Our teeth are actually-- I think, they're the only part of our body, that might not be exactly true, but I'm pretty sure they're the only, if not the only part of our body that in order to get their nutrition requires direct contact. So, you know how the rest of our body nutrients are delivered, they're processed by the body and they're delivered through the bloodstream and that's how it all goes down? That includes our bones. Our teeth, nothing gets delivered to the teeth through any bloodstream or pathway or highway. So, it's what you've literally directly put on your teeth. So, you want to make sure that your toothpaste in particular is something that is rich and mineralizing ingredients, so that it will support the health of your teeth. Isn't that so interesting?

Gin Stephens: That is interesting.

Melanie Avalon: That's like a fun fact that stuck with me for life. I was like, “Wow.” So, I guess that means that I wonder if the implications of that maybe that might mean that if you can eat a super high calcium teeth-supportive diet, but if you just shoveled it directly into your gut without going through your mouth your teeth might not actually be nourished from it, so fascinating.

Gin Stephens: I talk about this in Fast. Feast. Repeat. Lauren, if you have that book, it is on page 55, so you can turn there and look. I actually want you to use whatever toothpaste you want. Whatever it is, I don't want you to overthink the toothpaste or your morning dental routine and feel like you have to use baking soda with the salty flavor because here's why. We have a cephalic phase insulin response. Let's say your toothpaste-- if your brain did say, “Ooh, here's this sweetness coming in.” It happens within like two minutes, and then the insulin peaks at four minutes and returns to baseline between 8 to 10 minutes. So, that's going to be a really small spike. It's not going to be something that is going to last for hours. That's just something important to know. You brush your teeth, you go about your day, I would not recommend brushing your teeth every 10 minutes because that's going to be up and up and up and up. That's also why I think of gum and sodas and things like that is different because you don't just chew gum and then move about your day. It's something that continues and goes on and on and on. And back when I was a gum chewer, I was popping piece after piece after piece. So, it was pretty much continual. With your toothpaste, you're not continually doing it.

So, duration is important. I really encourage people to not stress too much about toothpaste. Use the kind that fits in with your philosophies, and if that's Colgate, then use Colgate. If that's the one you'd like to use, use it. If you want to make a homemade toothpaste with baking soda and peppermint oil? I don't know if that's what a dentist would recommend or not, I'm not really sure what they think about brushing with just baking soda. So, I'm not going to say to do that, because they might be like, “Oh, no, please don't do that.” I don't really know. Ask your dentist.

Melanie Avalon: To that point, the homemade one.

Gin Stephens: That might be a really bad idea. I just don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm a fan of homemade, but like I said, with the direct contact, you would probably want it to include things like their calcium powders and things like that, so that you're still getting that mineralization benefits. And I'm glad you brought up the insulin phase response. I know we've talked about that before on this show, but that was personally a big epiphany moment for me, what Gin just mentioned. Because basically, your pancreas has a little bit of insulin armed and ready to go. It's like a little bit, and it's what's released when you first taste something. It's what Gin just said. When you continue to eat and bring it in, then the pancreas once it loses that first little bit that it has primed and ready, it starts creating more, and that's what we don't want to happen, which would happen with eating or like Gin said, if you're continually having that flavor still coming in.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Now, I will say this also, if you notice every day after you brush your teeth, you get shaky like your blood sugar has crashed, maybe try a different brand or a different flavor. Switch from peppermint to a different-- I'm not going to say there's no time that toothpaste might be a problem for somebody. The issue is, if it makes you feel shaky, like your blood sugar is crashing, then you can experiment with different options. That's the only time I want you to worry about it.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode176. Feel like we talked a lot about a lot of stuff on this show. So, definitely check that out for all of the links to everything.

You can submit your own questions to the show. Just directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. You can follow me, I'm @melanieavalon. You can follow Gin, she's @ginstephens. And I think that's it, I guess. Anything else from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, talk to you next week. Bye.

Gin Stephens: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcast, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox.

See you next week.