Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 222 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast, Feast, Repeat. The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny: Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 222 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: Gin, you know what 222 is?

Gin Stephens: The number after 221?

Melanie Avalon: It's a palindrome.

Gin Stephens: Oh, well, it is. Yeah, it is. It's also a nice number. I like repeating numbers.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. Well, how are things with you?

Gin Stephens: They are great. I'm still at the beach. We had a whole week with my whole family here--Well, Chad didn't come. He doesn’t like to come to the beach, apparently, [laughs] and neither of my children were here. All the 20 something kids were off living their lives. It was just the younger kids and the adults except for Chad. We're all here, and we were here for a week, and it was great.

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's exciting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we had really good family time. We hadn't taken a family beach trip, my brother, Zach, figured out, for 22 years.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's a long time.

Gin Stephens: Yep.

Melanie Avalon: You put a picture on Instagram, was that your brother or--?

Gin Stephens: Those are two of my brothers and my sister. There are four of us.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay, because I was like, “That's not Chad, who is that?” I’m so confused. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: The one closest to me was my brother, Zach, and my sister, Alison, and then my other brother, Ben. We're all in that photo. It was so much fun. We had a surprise engagement for one of my nieces. At one time, I didn’t really how many people there were on the beach, there were 27 people on the beach for that surprise engagement. Her boyfriend, and his family, and their best friends all surprised her right in front of our beach house. We said we were going to do family photos, and so we all were there, and then, surprise, there's her boyfriend with an engagement ring and all of their family and friends plus us. So, there were a total of 27 of us on the beach and she had no idea.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, that's so fun. I love that.

Gin Stephens: That was right when we took that picture. It was so much fun. Yeah, it was so much fun. Anyway, this might be the last trip we all take as a family. So, even though Chad wasn't there, and my kids weren't there, and one of my nieces, one of my nephews, because they're old-- not old enough to have time off work [laughs] but too old to be a kid. It's that in between age.

Melanie Avalon: I guess, they'll grow into the time when they can come.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. But it was such a fun trip. Now, I'm here by myself. I'm staying till Thursday. Right before we recorded, I went for a swim in the ocean. I would say all by myself, except the ocean is packed full of people. So, I had to keep making sure I didn't run into people in the ocean. Back at the condo for this this week, our house is rented, and it was so sad to pack up from the house and come to the condo.

Melanie Avalon: I bet.

Gin Stephens: I love the condo, but I love the house. It's so much more isolated, even though, it's not isolated at all, the condo’s like wall to wall.

Melanie Avalon: Well, we can be grateful things opening up this summer.

Gin Stephens: It is. I'm so grateful. Exactly, and that everybody's here having such a good time. Yes, all those things. But I'm tired of eating out, can I just tell you. So now, I'm just eating at the condo, meeting things like avocados, and tomatoes, and raisin toasts, and it's so nice to just be eating plain [laughs] simple foods. I'm going to have a big spinach salad to open my window today.

Melanie Avalon: Very nice.

Gin Stephens: So, what's up with you?

Melanie Avalon: Actually, a few really important things or exciting things. I've been telling you this, but I'm really making forward progress. I think I'm going to produce a serrapeptase supplement.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's really fun.

Melanie Avalon: I'm learning so much about making a supplement., like how the process works and everything. So, I'm really excited. Listeners, stay tuned, because you know, there's so many serrapeptase-- for listeners, who are not familiar, Serrapeptase is a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. When you take it in the fasted state, which is obviously easy for many of our listeners, it goes into the bloodstream and breaks down residual proteins in your body. So, those are things that can contribute to inflammation or allergies, or-- Gin, you took it originally for fibroids, right?

Gin Stephens: I did.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Brain fog is another thing. A lot of people just really find it to be a game changer. I've taken it pretty much every day for years, and there's all this debate out there about which brand to use, and potency, and strength, and should you get enteric-coated serrapeptase, or should you get enteric-coated capsules. So, I've been doing all of the research, and I'm working with a preexisting company that I really like. I'm probably going to produce it with them. So, stay tuned.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's really fun.

Melanie Avalon: I know. [giggles]

Gin Stephens: I am never going to make a supplement. Can I just say that?

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] If I ever do, that's a sign that I've been kidnapped. Come and look for me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's so funny. I didn’t think I ever would I think something like this would be appropriate, I realized maybe it would be appropriate to make the supplements that I personally take every day, I might as well make my own version?

Gin Stephens: With this one, not only do you take it every day, but you haven't found a company that you really, really trust with it.

Melanie Avalon: Right, exactly.

Gin Stephens: That's the difference.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Then, listeners just ask all the time. People ask my Facebook group like, “Which brand?” I was like, “I just need to have my own.” That's one exciting thing. We're still figuring out all the details but what we're probably going to do, just to tease it now, is have the launch date, but we'll probably, do a special preorder setup where you'll get it at a really discounted price. So, stay tuned. I will have more details about that.

Gin Stephens: Very cool. What else? You said there are lots of things, is it just two?

Melanie Avalon: The second thing is, I released this week on Friday, last Friday, this past Friday, and the episode with Dr. Robert Lustig for that Metabolical book. Oh, my goodness. Gin, have you read it yet?

Gin Stephens: I haven’t. I'm reading some fiction right now. I'm reading this trilogy of fiction that's really long by Ken Follett. If there are any Ken Follett readers out there, they know what I'm talking about.

Melanie Avalon: What genre, fiction? What, like fantasy?

Gin Stephens: Historical fiction. The trilogy I'm reading now is World War I. And now, I'm in World War II. Then, I haven't read the third one, is, I guess, Post World War II.

Melanie Avalon: Nice. [laughs] I've not read any of that stuff.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't read fantasy.

Melanie Avalon: I know I said that, and I was like, “Wait, she's not reading fantasy.”

Gin Stephens: No. I don't like fantasy.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “This is Gin.” I don't even know what books you like, but I know you're probably not reading fantasy.

Gin Stephens: No, I like realistic fiction a lot. But it's been so long since I read, I'm almost embarrassed to-- It's been a long, long time since I read fiction.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, me too.

Gin Stephens: But I'm really enjoying it.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. Well, when you come back to the nonfiction world, I still think you would love Metabolical. Especially, it just really lines up with your new book so much, but I have an update about it. So, the episode has been so, so popular. I've been sort of blown away, which I anticipated that. I was supposed to release this episode way later like in the fall, but I was so excited about it that I bumped it up to now. But Dr. Lustig in the episode talks about-- I don't know if he owns the company-- Okay, so it's called Biolumen, and he's basically making a supplement, but it's all food compounds. It's technically considered food. The way it works is, in their early studies, they've shown that it inhibits 35% of sugar load-- well, I guess any sugar. The ingredients in it, sequester sugars and starches in the gut, and it makes them so that they're not immediately absorbed higher up and instead released further down in the intestine. It goes with his whole thing of “protecting” the liver and feeding the gut. They're still doing trials on it and studies. They're looking for listeners who use a CGM, who would like to be involved in his studies and his trial, and he mentioned it in the episode, but I didn't have the information then. So, now, I have the information.

If anybody wants to do, this to qualify, you have to routinely use Abbott FreeStyle Libre CGM. If you use a Dexcom, you can also participate, but you'd have to be able to send screenshots of your data. Or, for our listeners who are doing NutriSense and Levels, he didn't talk about this and the information that he gave me, but that-- What do those use? I think those use the FreeStyle. Those would work because you can send screenshots with the data. You also can't have diabetes, but it's okay if you have prediabetes. You can't be taking glucose-lowering medications, including insulin, and you obviously have to be willing to share your CGM. But if you'd like to participate, and if you participate, they'll send you these capsules, I have all the instructions, but basically, you'll be taking them in conjunction with your food, you'll have your readings, and also, you will be compensated a little bit for it as well.

If you'd like to do this, just contact Dr. Lustig directly. His email is RLustigMD@gmail.com. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. This is really exciting. It says that he'll email you back or if you prefer, if you include your name and phone number, he will call you directly. So, [giggles] that's very cool. I was excited when he sent me this, because I was like, “Well, we have a big audience, and a lot of our audience is wearing CGMs.” So, if anybody's interested, this could be a fun little thing to do.

Gin Stephens: I wonder if he's going to be surprised.

Melanie Avalon: I know. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: That has definitely happened [laughs] when I've interviewed people on Intermittent Fasting Stories, and then they're like, “Oh, I wasn't expecting that.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That many people, yeah. He just sent me this email this morning, and then, I just emailed back, and I was like, “Yeah, I'll mention it on our podcast.” We shall see. That's really cool that he'll call you though. I had other things, but I can save it for next week.

Gin Stephens: Well, those are some exciting things.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Shall we get started with the feedback?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: This is from Madeline, and the subject is, “Fasting during triathlons.” She says, “Hello, ladies. I've been listening to your podcast from the start, and truly believe this is the best healthy way of longevity. Thank you for all you do. You ladies are fun to listen to and full of great knowledge. I don't have a question, but just to share an experience I've had with IF in the course of my life. As per your request from Episode 218, a little about myself. I am a retired RN and a personal trainer from Ontario, Canada. Hello from the North. I too, like Gin, once weighed 216 pounds 25 years ago, 1996, and have kept it off.” Just a little side note for me. 210 is the highest number I saw on the scale, but it was probably 216 when I was on that cruise [laughs] because I wasn't weighing.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: She says, “I have kept it off. I basically lost it during the IF style of living. However, it wasn't recognized clearly back then. I did however do dirty fasts, i.e., my coffee. That has changed now especially as I know better, thanks to you gals, had to adjust it for menopause. After my huge weight loss, I had lots of energy that encouraged my performance as a triathlete. Over the course of 10 years, 2000 to 2010, I competed in multiple road races and triathlons placing first for my age group. During that time, I often was accused of taking some drug to give me such energy/speed to perform, LOL. It wasn't any drug, it was just IF. I was in my fasted state which I performed my best run, 5K, 24.3K bike, and 5k swim, and placed first every single time. I have a collection of medals on my wall. I don't race anymore as I train people to optimize their health to be their best. Thank you once again, all the best, Madeline.”

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this was really, really amazing to hear, because I remember when we discussed this on the earlier episode that we can put a link to and again, Gin and I-- We can research the science and we can share anecdotal stories like Madeline's, but we don't have any. Well, Gin, have you ever run a marathon?

Gin Stephens: Oh, Lord no. Is that a joke? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I did not want to presume.

Gin Stephens: That joke that, if you ever see me running, you better start running too. Have you ever seen that, because something's chasing me?

Melanie Avalon: That’s so funny.

Gin Stephens: I'm not a runner. I had so much fun playing in the ocean, today. That's what I like to do. Anything that is just fun and doesn't feel like you're exercising. I jumped up and down a million times, and the waves were knocking me over. I like to exercise like a kid playing.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, me too. Me too. It's nice to hear from people who actually have done this and it's crazy that she's a triathlete as well.

Gin Stephens: I love it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I know people love to do that kind of thing, and I admire them for loving it. I just don't.

Melanie Avalon: This is what we talked about last time, but I do want to iterate that this still likely requires a lot of training in the fasted state to do this in the fasted state. It's not something you want to just jump into willy-nilly, which actually our next question, I think, speaks to a little bit. Doesn't it?

Gin Stephens: It does.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. We’ve got another question or another feedback, and this is from Marcella. Madeline and Marcella. She says, “Hello, ladies. I just finished listening to podcast 218,” so that same episode. She says, “I have to write I have run marathons fasted, I am an ex-smoker.” Oh, we also talked about smoking in that episode. She said regarding, “Running fasted, you definitely need to train your body.” This is Melanie talking. That's what I was just talking about. She says, “I will never forget listening to ‘real runners’ telling me I was crazy doing it. But really, I am 60 years old, and I have been working out since I was 13 years old and back in the 70s, you shouldn't eat or drink when working out.”

Gin Stephens: That's true. I think things were different. This whole idea of the pre-workouts, and fueling up, and eating all the time, this is new.

Melanie Avalon: They're onto something back then. [laughs] She says, “Now, I do drink water if working out more than one hour. Since I’ve turned 50 years old, I’ve run 12 half marathons and two full ones. Always fasted, black coffee only before the race, water during the race.” Before I read her next part-- That's great. That's two people reporting back that they run marathons fasted, but like Marcella pointed out, definitely something to train for. I'm so motivated now. She's done so many marathons.

Gin Stephens: Are you going to do one?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Well, then, what are you motivated to do? [laughs] Inspired? Is that a better word?

Melanie Avalon: I'm motivated not to run a marathon, but I'm motivated about energetically active activities.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: I was actually rereading, or I reread Dr. Valter Longo's book, The Longevity Diet, because I'm going to interview him. He was talking about this at the beginning about the different ages that people are doing certain things, and he was saying how a lot of the best marathoners are-- I don't remember that age range he gave. Mid or late 30s. I don't know, that was also motivating. Then, Marcella says, “Regarding the ex-smoker question, I am also an ex-smoker over 10 years. When you smoke, you smoke when hungry. That is why smokers are thin. When quitting, it's important not to replace cigarettes with food. Try to replace them with some hobby. Cigarettes keep your metabolism higher, because you have to breathe more times than a regular nonsmoker.” I've never heard that before.

Gin Stephens: Well, think about it, because you need oxygen. So, it does make sense that you would be breathing more times because you're breathing in the smoke and not the oxygen, and you have to breathe to get the oxygen.

Melanie Avalon: It must be that plus I know nicotine as well has an effect. I'm guessing it's a synergistic thing. She says, “An easy fix is increase your activities. Walk, run, do something with your body. Thank you for sharing all what you know, I love listening to all of your podcasts.” When these questions come in, I read them, and then I ask our assistant to put them either in our prep document if we're going to read them, and so our assistant, Sharon, she wanted to add in after reading this question. She said, “I would like to add that I am an ex-smoker. When I quit, I vowed that every time I wanted a cigarette, I would chug two cups of water. It filled my stomach, cracking down on the hunger issue and gave me that hand-to-mouth replacement habit that smokers need. I always had a bottle of water with me everywhere I went. I also added one half hour of exercise every day. Even if it was just a simple walk, I never gained a pound, not one. I've helped several people in my health coaching practice to quit smoking, and the one book I recommend is Allen Carr's The Easy Way to Stop Smoking. It changed my life as it has many others including quite a few celebrities, including Ellen DeGeneres.”

Gin Stephens: I think he wrote one about drinking as well, The Easy Way to Stop Drinking. I feel he did.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, very cool. Again, for listeners, we'll put links to all of that in the show notes. I'm not smoking but I find that motivating, too for any habit. I'm just pondering the meaning of the word ‘motivating’ now. Does motivating have to motivate you to do the thing that it's talking about?

Gin Stephens: I know you said you were motivated before, and so it made me feel like you were motivated to run. You can be motivated to do something else. It doesn't have to be the same exact thing. I was just trying to understand what you were motivated to do, because if you're going to--

Melanie Avalon: Not run a marathon.

Gin Stephens: I'd like to see that. [laughs] No, I'm not going to do it, so I get it. I'm motivated to go play in the ocean some more. How’s that?

Melanie Avalon: That's great. I've started using more and more that X3 System, the resistant bands, the John Jaquish? I'm very impressed. I watched the videos online, but I've been a bit casual in my approach. I'm just pulling the bands, and doing the thing, and I should probably sit down and do the concentrated exercise, but I'm seeing massive improvements just from doing it for a few minutes. I'm very much in shock.

Gin Stephens: Wow, that's great. I need to maybe do something like that. I would do that.

Melanie Avalon: Let me do it for real, actually watch the videos and do it and report back. I want to have done it by the time I release his episode. I'm very, very impressed. For listeners, what I'm talking about, the link is melanieavalon.com/x3. The coupon code, MELANIEAVALON, I think will give you a discount. I'll check on that and put the right code in the show notes if it's not that. But yeah, any other thoughts about the smoking, the weight, the running?

Gin Stephens: Just a disclaimer to say, please don't start smoking to lose weight.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes.

Gin Stephens: That's all. [laughs] Because Marcella mentioned that's why smokers are thin. That would not be the thing to do.

Melanie Avalon: I'll put a link in the show notes. Dr. Peter Attia recently released a really good episode on nicotine that was very interesting. I’ll put a link if people want to learn more.

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Gin Stephens: All right, so we have a question from Jenny, and the subject is “Interesting article.” She says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. I just found an interesting article very much the opposite of what you're preaching.” The article that Jenny shared, we’ll have a link to it in the show notes. It's called The Damaging Double Standard Behind Intermittent Fasting. Yes, it just came out, and then of course, anytime anything like that comes out, a million people send it to me. [laughs] Did they send it to you, too?

Melanie Avalon: Did a lot of other people send it to you?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's so interesting.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. People send me things all the time. They're like, “Have you seen this?” I'm like, “Yes, a hundred times. Thank you.” [laughs] But if no one sent it to me, I would see it zero times. It's better to see it a hundred times than zero times, right? Anyway, she said, “I love to listen to your podcast, and I'm doing IF for over a year, on and off. I work in hotels and restaurants, and my shifts are always changing. It's very hard to keep a daily routine. My sister-in-law is a doctor, and all about fasting and how it's benefiting people with bad health conditions. I think her handle is #TheDoctorAaron on Instagram. She's all about changing healthcare with focusing on the whole body, and not just giving people prescription drugs.

I'm originally from Germany, and live in Alaska for a little over two and a half years. It's such a fun place. Everyone needs to visit. I met my now husband the first day I visited Alaska as a tourist in 2016. He showed me the northern lights and, well, the rest is history. Keep up the good work. It's really fun to listen to you guys, Jenny.”

Melanie Avalon: Again, we'll put a link in the show notes to this article. The article is The Damaging Double Standard Behind Intermittent Fasting. Basically, it talks about Jack Dorsey who practices intermittent fasting, eating. I'm sorry, it kills me, because when I hear his interviews, he eats the same thing that I eat. But he does basically a one meal a day approach with protein, greens, and mixed berries, and then the bulk of the article is about how with different dietary approaches-- and they list a lot of other things as well not just intermittent fasting. Like when Gwyneth Paltrow did a 300 calorie a day detox, Nicole Richie talking about her diet of sunflower seeds, celery juice, and chewing gum. They talk about today's shows, I'm going to backtrack a little.

I really want to encourage listeners to have a very discerning eye when reading articles, and how things are portrayed and subtly put together to create certain implications. For example, in this article, they list these different diets. They list Gwyneth Paltrow doing 300 calories a day in January. Nicole Richie eating sunflower seeds, celery juice, and chewing gum. Then, right after that, they list The Today Show hosts who weighed themselves on live television after spending the week eating only between 10 and 6. The first two are extremely restrictive things, extremely restrictive. Not even slightly restrictive. No questions asked, restrictive, and then the next thing they list is an intermittent fasting example. But because you have in your head, the two prior examples of crazy diets, that's what your brain is set up for, and you're automatically prescribing that to intermittent fasting. Eating from 10 to 6, which is an eight-hour window., so that's a 16:8 approach.

In my opinion, again, this is all my opinion, just as a concept that is nowhere near eating 300 calories a day, [laughs] or eating sunflower seeds, celery juice, and chewing gum. That's an example, I think, of how intermittent fasting can be portrayed in the media. They're equating it to other restrictive things when it is not necessarily that, and the reason I say not necessarily is because those hosts, true, from 10 to 6, they could have been just eating 300 calories, in which case, it would have been the same level of restriction but it's not necessarily. That's not even the main point of the article.

The main point of the article-- because it does talk more about intermittent fasting and it does sort of paint it as a restrictive approach. The main point of the article is that, when women engage with these dietary approaches, be it restrictive diets, or intermittent fasting, even though the articles linking those together, that men can engage in them, and the response is different. Basically, when women do these diets, it's seen as an eating disorder, disordered eating, a problem, an issue. When men do it, it's often seen as a way to be successful or a way to optimize their performance. That's really the thesis of the article, is how culture perceives men versus women engaging in these diets.

I actually think this is something really important to draw attention to, not so much for the takeaway that I take from this article, which-- the takeaway I took from the article, and people can read it for themselves, and see what they feel about it. I felt like it was saying intermittent fasting is disordered eating, and that when women do it, it may be seen as disordered eating, but when men do it, it's usually not seen as disordered eating. I disagree with that. I think that intermittent fasting by itself does not mandate a state of restriction or a state of disordered eating. It can. It very easily can, especially if you struggle with eating disorders, and especially if you're being restrictive in your fasting window.

Then, on top of that, and this is what I really want to draw attention to, and why I actually like things like this article, because I think it gets people thinking is, how men versus women engaging in any dietary approach are treated differently in culture. There's a reason for that. It's because women in general are more prone to eating disorders. But I think that does a disservice to both genders, because women on the one hand might not have disordered eating, but are more likely going to be, especially if they're doing something like fasting, which may raise some eyebrows, more likely to be “accused” of disordered eating, even if they're not. Then, on the flip side, for men, they might have disordered eating, and it won't be seen that way. Because there's this stigma that or this idea that men don't really have eating disorders the way that women do. I think that's equally a problem. Because for men who are struggling with eating disorders, I think that can be really, really hard. Because there's such a social stigma around it, that I think it can be really hard for men to seek out help if they need help in that regard.

If I were to rewrite this article, [laughs] I would talk about how intermittent fasting is not necessarily, I have already said this, but just to say it again, it's not necessarily restriction. It's not a synonym to restrictive eating or disordered eating, but it very easily can be. Men and women both can struggle with eating disorders. Men and women both cannot as well. I think we should do the best that we can to look at the individual and lose the social paradigm, and the preexisting ideologies, and beliefs, and biases that we have surrounding fasting, restriction, eating disorders, and just look at the person, and what is happening, and what are they eating, and is there an eating disorder, and those are my thoughts. That was long.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I'm always so irritated by articles that hint that intermittent fasting is an eating disorder. I've never felt saner about food since I've been an intermittent faster. It feels everything I did before intermittent fasting felt disordered. Now, finally, I feel undisordered.

Melanie Avalon: I don't really get that feeling. For me, being selective in my food choices makes me feel better. I feel really good existing within the foods I choose to eat. To a lot of people, I think that looks restrictive, and it's concerning to me that that can be seen as an eating disorder or something. One of the quotes in the article, they're quoting Dr. Cynthia Bulik, she's the Director of the Center for Excellence for Eating Disorders at the University of North Carolina, and the Director of the Center for Eating Disorders Innovation at the Karolinska Institute. She says, people who have extreme eating behaviors intermittent fasting, biohacking, like, I don't even know I'm so confused. Biohacking? Biohacking, extreme pickiness can have variants of anorexia nervosa or avoidant restrictive food intake disorder, and go undetected, because they are packaged as healthy or productivity promoting.

This is another example, like lumping in the word biohacking with-- I'm just very confused as to how the word ‘biohacking’ is an extreme eating behavior. They're just a lot of generalizations. But on top of that, I agree. I think a lot of people do have restrictive eating patterns and present it as what she says healthier productivity promoting. Making the generalizations, it just doesn't take in the nuance, and it doesn't take into account all the people who feel so, so free with intermittent fasting, and finally don't feel restricted, and finally our eating all that they want in their eating window, all the nourishing food that they need, all the cellular energy, and are finally free from the cravings. I was thinking about it even more, one of my posts this week on my Instagram, I feel this whole thing is a soapbox.

But one of my posts this week on my Instagram is in reference to the conversation that I have with Dr. Will Cole for his book, Intuitive Fasting, and it was one of the problems with intuitive eating, and I was just quoting what he was saying about how it can be really hard to intuitively eat with our modern diet and our modern health conditions, and our blood sugar, and our inflammation, and sometimes people just can't healthily-- Depending on your type, and your body, and your health, and your mindset, it might not be possible for them to “intuitively” moderately engaged with certain foods, and it might actually be easier and healthier to completely avoid the foods that aren't working for them, and I got a lot of comments.

Gin Stephens: Can I jump in on that?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: I know you've heard me talk about this before, but I don't know if you remember, though. I was doing intuitive eating big time. I read all the books, and this is prior to intermittent fasting. That's what I was most recently trying to do when I got up to 210 pounds. But they tell you in all of the intuitive eating literature, “Don't change what you're eating. Just start listening to your body.” I was like, “All right.” They're like, “Eat what you want, not what you think you should eat.” Okay, so, I continued to eat the standard American diet and all the ultra-processed foods, and I was unable to be intuitive within that eating paradigm, because my body was still craving nutrients that I wasn't sending it. If I asked myself, “Are you hungry?” The answer was always, “Yes.” Because I seriously was starved for nutrients. He's right. The intuitive eating paradigm totally let me down when I did it that. But once I started doing intermittent fasting, started listening to my body, now I feel I am an intuitive eater within my window, whereas I could not be an intuitive eater before. So, the intuitive eating community just railed on him about the fasting as being so unintuitive, but amazingly, that's what unlocked the intuitive part. It's like, “Huh, [laughs] he's right.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, 100%. I think the intuitive eating so much more easily comes after you've made those changes and especially something like fasting. Can I read the quote from him?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, you can check out my Instagram for this. But he says, “I agree that diet culture is messed up and shaming your way into wellness is not going to happen. But the result then is this rebound, opposite other extreme, where they suspend all science and logic, that you can somehow intuitively eat junk food, and somehow that's going to bring about you feeling great in your body. Over 60% of the United States has a massive blood sugar problem. This is most people. This isn't some rare sect of people. So, if intuitive eating works for you, that's great, but you're not the majority of the United States. The majority of the United States has a massive blood sugar problem and are somewhere on that inflammation spectrum, more specifically, the insulin-resistant inflammation spectrum.

The majority of the human race, specifically in the West are struggling with hangriness and insatiable cravings, that drive them towards things that perpetuate their problems. They're going to feel horrible in their own body, and they're actually going to be decreasing their quality of life. If you really love yourself, you have to ask the question. Is that really your intuition? The reality is, it's not going to bring about health. If it works for you keep on doing it, but many people are not served by broad sweeping overgeneralized statements where they're romanticizing junk food and calling itself love. Feeding chronic disease isn't self-love. It's actually metabolic problems. That's part of the conversation that I wanted to have in the book, Intuitive Fasting.”

I just think it's a really, really wonderful, nuanced conversation. I think this article here is tapping into this dialogue where people who feel they need to change their food and be “restrictive” in their food choices. That's leading to freedom and metabolic flexibility ultimately, but not necessarily, I don't know.

Gin Stephens: Well, there's a fine line. Have you ever read anything by Dr. Steven Bratman?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: He's the guy who invented the terminology orthorexia, and that's the fear of eating certain things. I actually dug into this in Clean(ish). Now, available for pre-order, because I'm talking about eating mostly clean. One of the biggest criticisms of the clean eating movement in general is that it leads people to develop orthorexia, or fear of food. I wanted to confront that right on and explain there's a difference between eating for health versus orthorexia, fear of eating. He does a great job talking about it. He, actually Dr. Bratman, in his book explains his own descent into orthorexia, and how it helped the health food movement that got him there, and how he came out of it. It's just a very interesting story.

There's a fine line sometimes. You want to eat for health, but not be paralyzed with fear about food. We went to a seafood buffet last week. [giggles] It was totally not what I normally eat. Everything was fried. I know those oils aren't good, but I ate them. I wasn't scared of them, but I realized I wouldn't feel my best. I didn't feel my best the next day, and now, I'm really glad to be eating at home or at the condo, but even if I had said no to eating those fried foods, that would have been okay too. To say, “You know what? I don't want to feel that, so, I'm not going to eat that.”

He talks a lot-- there's a self-test you can do to see if you might have some of the characteristics. It's not a recognized eating disorder yet, orthorexia. But it's a proposed eating disorder. So, if you find yourself, this is for listeners, feeling like you're going down that rabbit hole of, I can only have celery juice, and sunflower seeds, and gum, [giggles] then maybe you want to check out that self-test and see.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I reread the conclusion. I get now what they're proposing. They're proposing that, if people saw men as having eating disorders more than fasting-- it sounds like they think that, because men aren't seen as having eating disorders in society that intermittent fasting maintains all of its perceived benefits, because men are doing it and we don't see anything wrong with it. Basically, they're saying that if men were seen as having eating disorders, then fasting in general would probably be seen as an eating disorder regardless.

Gin Stephens: That's why that article irritated me so much, because it seems to be very preachy about it. He shares all these really extreme examples and paint the picture of intermittent fasting as an eating disorder, but we glamorize it because they're men. That's the part that makes me so frustrated, because anyone who has an eating disorder is going to misuse all the tools. Fasting is a tool, colonics are a tool. When I use that, [giggles] but you know what I'm saying? All of the tools taking a laxative, any tool that is actually a living tool can be abused. Eating carrots is a tool for healthy food. But if you only eat carrots, and you only eat three carrots a day, that's an eating disorder. But that doesn't mean carrot is an eating disorder.

Melanie Avalon: That's an amazing way of putting it. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: It's frustrating to see the lack of nuance in all of this.

Melanie Avalon: In a topic that clearly begs nuance.

Gin Stephens: Absolutely.

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Gin Stephens: Let's shift into the question from Heather, and the topic is “Night shift nurse,” and this dovetails in with what Jenny said about her shifts changing and being hard and to keep a daily routine. Heather says, “Hey, Gin, and Melanie. I've been listening to you ladies for a while now off and on. I recently started working 12-hour night shifts on weekends. I'm struggling with figuring out a schedule, because I sleep all day, and work all night on the weekends. The transition is what I'm struggling with trying to figure out. Do you have any advice, tips, or tricks? Thanks so much, Heather.”

Melanie Avalon: All right. This is a great question from Heather. We've had episodes before on night shifts, but I was just thinking through her schedule. I'm assuming she works during the weekdays during the day, and then goes to sleep, and then, it sounds like on the weekends, I'm guessing she probably goes in at 6 PM or something, and works until 6 AM-ish, something like that. One suggestion I had, and I'm really curious, Gin, if you have go-to suggestions people have shared. But if you're doing a one meal a day schedule, could you always have your one meal a day as dinner, for example? On weekdays, you're just having dinner after work, and then going to bed, and then when you switch to the night schedule, you have your dinner before work, and then go to work, and then come back and sleep, and then wake up and eat, and then go into work ff you don't mind working on a full stomach, some people prefer working on an empty stomach. But it might be possible that you literally would not really have to change your eating window, is just that the working and sleeping would change around a little. Another thing you could do is, do your fasting during the weekdays normally, and just for the weekends-- some people don't do intermittent fasting every single day. The weekends, just be more lacs and just eat when you're hungry, and don't stress about it too much emotionally or mentally, and then just get back into the routine of things during the weekdays. Gin, do you have suggestions?

Gin Stephens: Well, gosh, I wish I had my friend, Sheri, who cohost’s Life Lessons with me, because this is exactly what she does. She has 12-hour night shifts on weekends. Yes, she works in healthcare. I'm pretty sure this is what Sheri does. During the week, when she's not working the shifts, she eats-- Probably, she does a loose one meal a day, usually snack and a meal kind of a thing. She’ll open her window, midafternoon, and then eat, and then have a dinner kind of thing closes her window. Snack and a meal, probably for four-hour window, five-hour window something like that. Then, when she goes into work on the weekend, she doesn't eat at her normal time that day, but she delays and she eats overnight, later in the shift. She'll just have a longer fast--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, during the shift.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. She just has a longer fast when she gets off work. She eats during work at some point. She'll take something with her and eat it later into her shift, and then she comes home and goes to bed, and then when she wakes up. She just basically ends up-- Then, she has her work fasting schedule, and she just has that one longer fast as she transitions.

Melanie Avalon: It's actually sort of similar to what I said, but she pushes back the meal a little bit.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, she pushes back that first day that she has the night shift.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yay. I'm excited. That's similar to what I suggested.

Gin Stephens: But she doesn't eat before she goes to work. She pushes it later. She has just a little bit of a longer fast.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, gotcha.

Gin Stephens: But she makes it work for her. That might not be what works for Heather. So, you've got to figure out what feels right to you and when you choose to eat, there's no right or wrong answer.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, what I would probably do if it was me, because I know myself, I know what I would probably do. I would be doing my dinner every night, and then the first night shift, I would probably do the whole shift fasted, and then, I would eat once I got back, I would sleep, and I would eat after the next shift and sleep, and then I would go back to my dinner routine during the weekdays.

Gin Stephens: I just don't know. I would not be good at working a night shift, because I would not be able to stay awake that long. I don't know how all of y'all do it. Everyone who does the night shift, I admire you. I am no good without-- and I could get so sleepy. That was one thing when I was here with my family, because I stayed up later every night, but I still woke up bright and early. In the beach house, in the summer, that appears to be 6 AM, because that's when the sun comes up, and I can see it through the blinds. So, every day I woke up at 6 AM no matter how late we stayed up the night before talking.

Melanie Avalon: See, this is why-- because me and my night person-- This is why my example I just gave, I could do that. I would get so alert during the night shift. If I were to eat, then I would get really tired. So, I would have to eat after. Actually, now that I think about it, sometimes when I was doing extra work in LA after I graduated, it would be the situation because sometimes we would have night shoots, and on those days, I get back at 4 AM, or 5 AM, or 6 AM. I never would eat. I would just eat when I got back. Then, I would just reset to-- If I got back at 6 AM, I would eat and then I would sleep and then I would still eat my normal dinner that night, and that would get me back into normal routine. It was a longer fast, but then it got compensated for in a way because I would eat much sooner.

Gin Stephens: One night was longer, the next was shorter.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly.

Gin Stephens: I think we have time for one more.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. All right. We have a question from Eric. The subject is, “First week of IF.” Eric says, “Your podcast has been so helpful. Thank you. This may be a routine question. If so, I apologize. I'm 45, 6’2”, and 195 pounds. I started IF this week and I'm shrinking my window to five hours. I notice that by the 15th hour, I’ve start to get lightheaded, tingle sensation, and hangry. Will my tolerance increase over time? I'm worried I won't be as kind at home as I am when I am on my best behavior at the office when feeling hangry.”

Gin Stephens: The answer is yes. Your tolerance will increase over time. Even if we knew that this was not his first, week you can tell just by the 15th hour the way he's starting to feel. Yep. Your body is learning how to do something new, and you're not fat adapted yet. Once, you get to that point, you still might have a little wave of hunger at some point in the morning, but it'll come and go very quickly. This is totally normal for the adjustment period, Eric, and so, by the time you hear this, you're probably going to be already over that. You'll have answered it yourself by the fact that you feel better, but totally normal at first.

Melanie Avalon: I have a question, because I know in the past there have been situations I feel like where people have said that they feel dizzy or something, and you've said to eat, and he mentions lightheaded?

Gin Stephens: Well, okay, if you feel shaky or nauseous, then go ahead and eat. I don't know what he means by a tingle sensation. I've never heard that before. I don't know what that is. If you feel shaky or nauseous, don't push through that. Go ahead and eat. That's your body signaling that your blood sugar is low. It probably, don't push through lightheaded. I was just saying, yes, it gets better.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I was just trying to clarify.

Gin Stephens: As you adjust. you will not feel shaky, and nauseous or lightheaded once your body adjusts. As long as you're fasting clean, you shouldn't have those feelings. It does get better but you don't want to push through a low blood sugar shakiness kind of thing. But I don't ever get those. Do you ever feel shaky or nauseous or anything?

Melanie Avalon: Nuh-huh. Nauseous, I started getting nauseous, but it was not related to the fasting. It was a lot of other factors, I think. But yes. In any case, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode which will be super important, because we feel we talked about a lot of things, those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode222. You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, Gin is @ginstephens, I am @melanieavalon, and I think that is all the things. Can I tell you one quick thing before we go?

Gin Stephens: No. [giggles] Sorry. I was joking. Yes, please tell me.

Melanie Avalon: Can I give you an update on my cottage cheese adventures?

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, how's that going?

Melanie Avalon: I make it every day, and I've been trying all different milks, basically, all the possible fat-free organic milks that you can find.

Gin Stephens: What do you mean?

Melanie Avalon: Like Organic Valley.

Gin Stephens: Oh, you mean the brands. I was wondering if you were talking about dairy milk versus almond milk, and I wouldn't think those others would work.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they don't. Organic Valley has a grass milk. There's a grass milk, there's a lactose-free milk, there's the normal-- Apparently, fun fact, apparently, did you know, Gin, that the milk that is in the cartons is usually ultra-pasteurized, but the ones in the gallons like the plastic is usually just pasteurized?

Gin Stephens: Well, no, I actually did not know that.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, and so apparently, just pasteurized works better but I can't find the fat-free pasteurized in a gallon. So, this is the conundrum that I'm in. But last night, when I tried, I read that when you make, it separates it into the casing and the whey, and the casing is the curds and whey is the whey, like the liquid. I was reading that you could, A, turn the whey into ricotta, I haven't tried that yet. And or B, turn it into-- have you heard of brown cheese?

Gin Stephens: Brown? Like the color brown?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay, wait, it's also called--

Gin Stephens: No, I have not heard of brown cheese.

Gin Stephens: It's also called I have no idea how you say this, G-J-E-T-O-S-T.

Gin Stephens: No. Uh-huh. I don't know how to say that. That sounds German.

Melanie Avalon: It's Norwegian.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: I tried to make it last night. I don't know if it really worked. I'm not sure, it's in the fridge right now. But oh, my goodness, Gin, it tasted like honey. I was shocked. It was shocking. It tastes like caramel. Like caramel honey, the amount of sugar, my heart jumped through the roof, and I was just like, I was like I can't believe there's this much sugar and milk. If you reduce it, it was shocking. It also made me realize that you could bake really intense desserts and not even need a drop of refined sugar, because this-- I don't know. I'm in shock how that whey transformed.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's interesting. Yeah. I had no idea.

Melanie Avalon: Experiments in the dairy and cheese world.

Gin Stephens: [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's fun. You make your bread, I make my cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: So, anything else from you before we go?

Gin Stephens: Nope, I don't think so.

Melanie Avalon: Right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, talk to you then. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 221 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny: Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 221 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am great, and I have had a very exciting week.

Melanie Avalon: Really? How so?

Gin Stephens: Super exciting. Some amazing intermittent faster named Ashley posted a TikTok video about her 70-pound weight loss, I guess in the past week. I guess it was maybe Sunday, she posted it. It apparently went a little viral. People started buying Fast. Feast. Repeat. like crazy. It was number four of all books on Amazon on Monday. Four of all books on Amazon. That have never been that high.

Melanie Avalon: What's number one?

Gin Stephens: I think it's like fiction. I can't remember. This is of all books, every book in the world.

Melanie Avalon: Like in the world.

Gin Stephens: Yes. All the books that are selling-- Anyway, that was so exciting, and it stuck around in the top 10 for a little while, and then it was in the top 20, and today it was higher, but it's still been in the top 100 all week. That's amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Do you think it'll be back on the New York Times bestseller list for that week?

Gin Stephens: Oh, you know what? I've done some snooping on the New York Times bestseller list just like--

Melanie Avalon: It's complicated, right?

Gin Stephens: It is very complicated. But the category that my book is in is how-to and self-help whatever category. I looked at what was on it the last time it came out, it was June 20th-- Even though we're recording this prior to June 20th, it was the June 20th edition. On the June 20th edition, I looked at what was number one, number two, number three, and Fast. Feast. Repeat. was indeed ranking higher than those books for a few days. Will it translate into enough to make the list again? I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: That'd be so cool.

Gin Stephens: It would be so cool, because we are actually two days away. Today, we're recording on June 18th even though this episode comes out in July, but we're two days away from the one-year anniversary of Fast. Feast. Repeat. coming out. So, wouldn't it be fun?

Melanie Avalon: Wow, a year?

Gin Stephens: It's been a year.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's crazy. I feel like it was just yesterday.

Gin Stephens: I know. It's been crazy. To think about book coming back onto the list a year out, it's not typical, unless it's been on there the whole time. Some books, for example, Atomic Habits. It's always there.

Melanie Avalon: Right. It is always there.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it was there when I was there, and then, I went away, and it's still there.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, our agent sends a New York Times bestseller email.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I don't get that one. I'm not on that list.

Melanie Avalon: You don't get it?

Gin Stephens: I've never gotten it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you’re not on that?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Well, you could probably get added to it. It's just a list of The New York Times bestsellers every week. Atomic Habits, it's always Atomic Habits.

Gin Stephens: It's always there. That is true.

Melanie Avalon: How are there still people left in the world to buy this book? Because apparently, everybody has bought it. That’s a good book. I would love to have him on the show, on my other show. Congratulations, though. That's very cool.

Gin Stephens: Well, thank you. Thank you so much. Anyway, we shall see. Anyway, it's very exciting, and my fingers are crossed. We'll see. I don't know if I'll be back on the list or not, but I would love it, but time will tell.

Melanie Avalon: I will keep my fingers crossed. I will look for that email.

Gin Stephens: Awesome. [laughs] What's up with you?

Melanie Avalon: I was just reflecting. I have a very exciting week next week or this upcoming week.

Gin Stephens: What's going on?

Melanie Avalon: Monday, you know Feals? I love Feals.

Gin Stephens: I do know Feals. Yes. [laughs] What? No, never heard of them. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my gosh, I love Feals. It's almost ridiculous how much Feals helps me personally, taking it every single night. For listeners, it's the CBD oil brand that we love. They do features on people who use Feals. They're going to do one on me, which is really exciting. They're paying for a photographer to come into my apartment on Monday and shoot me in my apartment.

Gin Stephens: Oh, my God, that's fun. That's really fun, because one company, I won't say which one it was, it’s one of our sponsors, but they also sponsored Intermittent Fasting Stories, are like, “Could you send us a picture using the product?” I had to just like, “Take my own picture.” I was like, “This looks ridiculous. Good luck with this.”

Melanie Avalon: Gin does not like taking pictures with the products.

Gin Stephens: I don't like taking selfies. I'm not good at it. Because I'm always hyperfocused on what my hand, how I'm clicking the-- I just am not a good selfie taker. I'm not even sorry. [laughs] It is what it is.

Melanie Avalon: I do them reluctantly. But yeah, this is exciting that it's going to be very official. That's Monday. Tuesday, I'm going to be on Abel James’ podcast, and he has Fat-Burning Man, and that podcast is, it's pretty legit. It's been around forever. He's so nice. I'm not even nervous about it, because I've had him on my show, and he's just the kindest human being.

Gin Stephens: You can tell by looking at his eyes. Do you know what I'm saying?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: He's got really kind eyes. You can totally tell from people's eyes.

Melanie Avalon: Out of how many guests have I had, almost hundred, I think he's the kindest, and everybody who meets them, that's what they say, that he's just the nicest person. Then, on Wednesday, I'm actually doing my first IG live. I've never done an Instagram Live, and I'm doing it with InsideTracker and Cory Rodriguez.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's fun.

Melanie Avalon: He has a lot of followers on Instagram. He must have a pretty big following. It's going to be really exciting. I think you did an IG Live, right? I think I saw that.

Gin Stephens: I've done a couple of them at requests of other people. People who were like, “Would you please--" They're not my favorite. I feel weird. One I did was an interview, which I didn't mind as much. But then, the one I most recently did, it was just me by myself. They were like, “No, you're just going to log into our account. Here's our password information, and then just go and we'll feed you questions.” I’m like, “What? What?” [laughs] I've realized I love talking to people. I can have a conversation. I can answer questions. But what I don't love is talking at a camera, just staring at it off the top of my head.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's awkward if it's just you.

Gin Stephens: It feels awkward to me. I’ve managed to do it, but it felt awkward. I always feel like I sound crazy. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny.

Gin Stephens: One of the companies that I work with wanted me to make an Instagram video and send it to them that they could-- I’m like, “I just can't. I just can't do that.” [laughs] I'm going to have to do something different. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny.

Gin Stephens: That's not what I'm doing. Sorry. I'll be 52 years old very soon. I'm going to do what feels good.

Melanie Avalon: Not your thing. Not your thing.

Gin Stephens: No, I'm not going to apologize. I just couldn't do what I can do. [laughs] I could do anything, but I don't want to do things that feel outside of authentic.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, one brand wanted me to do an Instagram takeover, where I’m supposed to-- similar to what you just said. I would log into their account, and then, I would post stories all day, but they wanted it to be my life all day, and I was like, “My life's not that exciting. I don't know what I would take the stories,” like podcasting at the cryo.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that would be interesting, but it feels forced to me. I don't know. I don't want to live my life like that. Sorry. That's when people are like, “Could you follow me around and show me everything you eat all day long and take pictures?” People have asked me that a lot. People are always like, “Show me what you eat.” I'm like, “No.” “Show me everything. Everything you eat.” I'm like, “I’m not doing that.”

Melanie Avalon: No. [laughs] Then, I'm always like, “You don't want to know.” They're like, “Yes, we do.” It is not that exciting, friends. It's pounds and pounds of meat, and cucumbers, and fruit.

Gin Stephens: I'm not eating that. [laughs] Yesterday, I had a big old cheeseburger and some house-made potato chips at the beach bar. I'm at the beach.

Melanie Avalon: Sounds very beachy, cheeseburger in paradise.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but that's it. I'm at the condo, today, and for some reason when I drive to the beach, I'm like, “Now, I must eat a cheeseburger at the beach bar.” I always do that day one when I get here. I don't know why.

Melanie Avalon: I love little traditions like that. They're so fun.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and now I’m like, “Now, I've had it. Okey-dokes. [laughs] There was my burger.” Today, I'm going out to eat with somebody who's in the Delay, Don't Deny community that I've never met in person, and I'm really excited. I'm meeting her and her wife at a restaurant.

Melanie Avalon: Cool.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I’ve found out she was here. We have a mutual Delay, Don't Deny friend. She's like, “Heads up. I was talking to Allison,” it's her name. “She's at Myrtle Beach. She said, “Doesn't Gin come to Myrtle Beach sometime? But I didn't tell her that you were at Myrtle Beach.” “Well, let me reach out. I sent her a message.” She's in the Delay, Don't Deny Social Network. I sent her a private message there, and I'm like, “Hey, I am at the beach, what are you doing?” We made plans to meet for dinner.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that'd be fun.

Gin Stephens: I know. I'm really excited. You know me. I love people. I love meeting people, people in the community.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't think I've met anybody in person from the groups, or the shows, or anything, I don't think. No. Well, I’ve met people I know from the show. I haven't met somebody in the audience.

Gin Stephens: It all started with the first Delay, Don't Deny cruise, that we did in 2018. That was the first time I met people I didn't know, but what was so cool is that you really do know them. The people you think you like from the groups that you think you know, you really do. They are just as awesome as you think they are. People are very much who they seem like, I found.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I love that. Actually, one of my best friends, I think we met in one of your groups, maybe, originally, way back in the day.

Gin Stephens: What's her first name? Did she help you moderate?

Melanie Avalon: Pam.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I knew that’s who it was. I knew it. Yep, she was in my groups, and then she came over to your group. I remember.

Melanie Avalon: We did the IF group together. We started it together.

Gin Stephens: I thought so. Yeah. I remembered that.

Melanie Avalon: I forget about that, because she doesn't really like actively do much with the groups now, and I talk to her all the time. But she lives in Canada. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I love that. One of my very best friends is Sheri that I do the other podcast with, we met through the Delay, Don’t Deny groups. Before I even met her in person, we were planning the second Delay, Don’t Deny cruise, and I was like, “I know I've never met you, and this might be weird. But would you be my roommate on the second cruise?” [laughs] Because we were going in March, and I needed someone who was not a teacher, and who could get away. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I love that.

Gin Stephens: She works in healthcare. She's like, “Absolutely. I'll be your roommate.” Anyway, good times.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It's just a wonderful community.

Gin Stephens: It is a wonderful community. That is what I love. I'm a teacher at heart, I will always be. That's what teachers do. We set up community in our classrooms. I really think that's the key to being a successful classroom teacher, is making your classroom feel like a community. That's just what I do. Anyway, I'm excited. I'm going to be at the beach for two weeks total, which is a long time. I don't usually come this long, but my house is still going under construction in the backyard. I just needed to get away. So, here I am. [laughs] But I have a beach strategy for how I'm going to eat, and people are taking vacations, and I'm sure they're listening and wondering how they're going to manage. I'm going to just really do probably most days, a pretty tight one meal a day. When I come to vacation, usually, if I'm here for four days or something like that, I might have two meals a day and I relax. But 14 days, no. That's a whole different story. If I ate two meals a day for 14 days, I wouldn't feel good at all.

Melanie Avalon: I don't feel good after one day of not doing one meal a day.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, so it's going to be a tighter window. We're going to eat tonight at 6:30, and I'm just going to fast until then, and I'll have a big meal, and then tomorrow, my family's all coming. My dad, my stepmother, and my sister, her husband, my brother, his wife, my other brother, all their kids. [laughs] It's going to be a big, big to-do at the beach. But I'm going to enjoy one amazing meal a day.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I love it.

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Gin Stephens: Are you ready to get into our question?

Melanie Avalon: I think so.

Gin Stephens: All right, we have one from Jen, J-E-N, Jen, and the subject is, “Fasting insulin fluctuations?” Jen says, “Hi, ladies. I love the podcast and all that I've learned from it. I've heard you guys talk about the value of checking fasting insulin levels, and I'm looking to get that done soon. But first, I wanted to know if it fluctuates as much as fasting glucose levels since blood glucose and insulin are so closely intertwined. I'm not diabetic, but have worn CGMs, and as Melanie has pointed out, the amount of blood glucose levels can vary within a few minutes of each other even during the fasted state can be pretty remarkable. So, I'm wondering if the fasted insulin level I get could be significantly different depending when the blood sample is drawn. If only there were CIMs, Continuous Insulin Monitors.” Oh, my God. I would love that. I would go get one immediately.

Melanie Avalon: Really? Christmas. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Yes. [laughs] I don't care how much it costs. Anyway, that would depend, because I'm frugal. [laughs] Sorry, I'm frugal. All right. “Related, I know HbA1c takes about three months to trend, but do you know how long it takes for fasted insulin levels to trend upwards or downwards? I notice with my CGM that if I have a high glucose day, it could take a couple of days for my overall glucose to trend back down even with IF. If I got my fasted insulin checked a day or two after some indulgence, would that show up, or does it take a longer pattern of a week or longer to reflect change? Trying to determine the ideal time to get tested. Thanks, ladies, and keep up the great content.”

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this is a great question from the other Jen, different Jen. I actually have been going down a rabbit hole recently. When I had on Harpreet, the CEO of Oura ring, on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, he introduced me to a girl who's a researcher. She researches specifically rhythms. Not so much circadian rhythms-- Oh, Gin, do you know the difference between circadian rhythm, and infradian rhythm, and ultradian rhythm?

Gin Stephens: That would be a negative. [laughs] I would just assume they're different rhythms of the body.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Circadian rhythm is 24 hours, so your 24-hour cycle. Infradian is longer than 24 hours, so it's like menstrual cycles, things like that. Then, ultradian is less than 24-hour rhythms, so it's things like blood sugar and stuff like that. I've been reading all of her research studies that she's worked on and prepping for the show. It's fascinating, because in one of her articles, she talks about how-- I think it's 32:1 ratio of studies that have been done on circadian rhythms versus ultradian rhythms. Basically, they're just not really researching this very much, but she has one, for example, on cholesterol, and triglycerides, and HDL, and ultradian rhythms, and it changes drastically throughout the day, your cholesterol levels.

Gin Stephens: Your cholesterol does?

Melanie Avalon: The HDL doesn't really, but the triglycerides and the LDL do, which is really interesting.

Gin Stephens: Well, we know blood glucose does, and yet you go get one-minute test snapshot in time, and it's so many decisions are made based on that.

Melanie Avalon: That's something they talk about in a lot of our articles is-- think about it. A lot of people just do one annual checkup. They determine basically, the entirety of their metabolic health based on that one snapshot that if they had gone a different day, even just a different time during that day, it could have been drastically different. Even in the study that she did on the cholesterol, for example, and I know Jen’s question is about insulin, but I'm going to circle back to it.

Basically, what they did in that study was they had people at home using a finger prick system, and testing their cholesterol all throughout the day for weeks, I think. I'm not sure how long the whole thing lasted. But everybody, every participant at some point during the day, their levels went into risk categories when it wasn't at other parts of the day. Isn't that fascinating?

Gin Stephens: Well, it makes me mad [laughs] frankly. You know why?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, there's a lot of reasons.

Gin Stephens: Well, that one snapshot period of time, and then, people are like, “Oop, you’ve got high cholesterol. Here are some meds,” when really that might have just been a peak of your day.

Melanie Avalon: They didn't really flesh out the significance. I find it really fascinating that HDL didn't really change, but LDL and trigs did. I'm really excited to hear her perspective on that. The point of all of that is that I am just really, really shocked about how much things change, and because we obviously have seen this with blood sugar with the CGMs, and for Jen’s question about insulin. I was really hoping that-- her name is Azure, which is such a beautiful name, Azure. I was hoping that one of her studies talked about insulin, but I didn't see it anywhere-- Oh, really quickly. What she's proposing and her work, and it's a reason that she's working with Oura is they're trying to see if you can measure other body stats like body temperature, and respiration, and stuff like that, and make better conclusions about your body state, rather than a single blood test. Particularly, she actually talks about the role of temperature and how it relates to diabetes. They're hoping that in the future that it might be possible to monitor blood sugar, and your diabetes status, and your need for insulin without actually taking your blood sugar, because they would be able to look at all of these other factors that are related.

Gin Stephens: So, they're trying to find a correlation with something else that the Oura ring measures.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Other rhythms, basically, other rhythms that would relate to the blood sugar in the insulin needs, which is very, very cool. The other reason I'm bringing her on is, she does a lot of work on the rhythms of the menstrual cycles and female fertility, and it's really exciting. That's part of the answer, is that it likely is changing, but I went one step further. I actually asked Dr. Benjamin Bikman this question, and for our listeners, he wrote the book, Why We Get Sick: The Hidden Epidemic at the Root of Most Chronic Disease and How to Fight It. Gin, you read that book, right?

Gin Stephens: Nope, I haven't read that one.

Melanie Avalon: We just talked about it a lot.

Gin Stephens: You've talked about it. I haven't read it yet.

Melanie Avalon: It's all about insulin. He thinks insulin resistance is the root of most diseases. I had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, I will put a link to it. But I asked him this question, and he said on Instagram, love Instagram. He said, “Insulin ebbs and flows even during fasting conditions. I'm unsure of the precise range, but it could easily fluctuate,” this is a lot, 5 plus. How is it measured? Why do you say it? The UU?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know what that-- I can't say that, but 5, whatever it is, it is off the scale.

Melanie Avalon: Per milliliter?

Gin Stephens: I don't know. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Even up to 10, which is considerable.

Gin Stephens: That is considerable.

Melanie Avalon: It could be changing substantially, and it's further concerning-- because it's hard enough to get a blood sugar test. You can do it yourself with a finger prick, or you can wear a CGM, or you can go to the doctor, but that alone people, often find a barrier to it, because they don't like pricking themselves, or they don't want to wear CGM, or CGMs are a little bit costly, or they don't want to go the doctor. The insulin test, you can really only get right now at the doctor, and it's hard to find a doctor that will prescribe it, because they often don't know that it exists, or they think it's not relevant. The point of all this is that I think checking your fasting insulin is super important, but there's definitely a barrier there. Were you going to say something?

Gin Stephens: You can order or get an order for a fasting insulin test. I can't remember the name of the website but my cohost on Life Lessons, Sheri was talking about it she did it. There's something like Walk-in Lab or something. I don't know. I can't remember the name of it, but there's some company that lets you pay them a very-- I think it's $25, and they will give you an order for a fasted insulin test.

Melanie Avalon: Do any lab tests now do it?

Gin Stephens: Maybe.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, maybe Gin, maybe we can look up and put in the show notes.

Gin Stephens: A company that'll do it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. For listeners, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode221. That's super amazing and a super great resource, but even with that, to Jen's question, it's hard to know exactly where you are in the grand scheme of things compared to that one single snapshot in time. That's why I think a CGM, for example, and again, that's blood sugar, not insulin, for a CGM, but I think that's why it's so valuable for so many people, because it gives you a broad picture where you'd get a much better sense of, in general, how your blood sugar is, how you're responding to food, and it's not this one moment in time that may or may not be an accurate depiction of what you're experiencing.

Gin Stephens: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: I'll put a link in the show notes. I have discount codes. Well, so for nutrition CGM, if you go to melanieavalon.com/nutrisensecgm and use the coupon code, MELANIEAVALON, that will get you 15% off. Or, if you want Levels, they're at some ridiculous number of a waitlist but if you use my link, you skip the waitlist. That's melanieavalon.com/levelscgm. But as far as Jen's second question about, how long would it take for insulin to trend upwards or downwards, because she was saying that she noticed that it can take her a few days to recover her blood sugar levels after a high blood sugar day, or a high glucose day.

I'm trying to remember where I heard this, and it's not good to just quote something and not remember the source, but somewhere along the line, I was reading something, and it was saying-- this was, I think, on a ketogenic diet, how dramatic-- It might have been in Dr. Bikman’s book. I could revisit that. It was relatively fast how shocking of a change you could see in insulin trends. I don't remember it was three days or a week, but it was definitely somewhere in that sphere. Do you have thoughts, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I do. We know that our blood glucose goes up, our body releases insulin to deal with that. That's what our bodies are supposed to do. Of course, when you have insulin resistance, it gets all out of whack, and your body releases more and more and more insulin over time, because you’re insulin resistant, and that's when your levels go up, up, up, up, up over time. Think of that curve just curving up the more demand you have.

I think a lot of it depends on how metabolically healthy you are. I have a hunch here. This is not me. This is not [laughs] hard science. My guess would be that if you're metabolically healthy, it's going to go up and down within a smaller range in a lower level versus if your insulin resistant, it's probably going to go up and down within a higher range. But I don't think it's going to go from way, way high to just boom, down low. I don't think it's going to vary that much. I don't think it varies quite as much as blood glucose, just based on what we know about insulin resistance. Do you think that sounds plausible, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Do you mean the difference between how much blood sugar fluctuates?

Gin Stephens: Well, I think that blood sugar fluctuations have so much to do with what you're eating obviously, we know that, what's going in, Also, how much insulin you're putting out, that's going to affect your blood glucose, obviously.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I see what you're saying.

Gin Stephens: But what I'm saying is, if you're insulin resistant, I think you always hang out at a higher level of insulin all the time.

Melanie Avalon: That's similar to, we talked about this before, Gary Taubes, his thesis. He thinks everybody has a baseline level of insulin, he calls it the insulin threshold, that below or above it determines how your cells are storing or releasing energy, that’s a little bit different nuance. It's a similar concept in that there's a threshold or a baseline, and people are all different.

Gin Stephens: We know that with hyperinsulinemia, that's overall high levels of insulin. That's a thing. That's a good diagnosis. I don't know that people are getting that diagnosis, but it's a real medical thing, hyperinsulinemia, high levels of circulating insulin all the time. I think that those people aren't zooming down too low and then back up to high. I think they pretty much hang out in the high all the time. I don't know that we have a lot of repeated insulin tests though, a lot of data, like we do with blood glucose, because blood glucose is so much easier to monitor. I know we have a lot of that data. I don't know how much insulin data, that would be interesting to know. But I do have one little tip for anyone getting a fasting insulin test, don't drink black coffee before you go. Because black coffee can cause your liver to dump out glycogen. Anything that makes your liver dump out glycogen is going to make your blood glucose go up, and that could make your body releasing insulin to go along with that increased blood glucose. You want to just stick to water only the time before you get your fasted blood work done.

Melanie Avalon: I'll put a link in the show notes though to Dr. Benjamin Bikman's book, because I'm just looking through it now briefly, and the entire book is about insulin. Because I read it a while ago, if any listener who wants to read it again and let us know if he answers the question about how many days it takes to go down, that'd be really cool.

Gin Stephens: I would have a guess though for her that if your blood glucose has trended up, for example, she talks about it, it takes a day or two after her indulgence for her blood glucose to trend down, I would expect her insulin would follow that curve, wouldn't you?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I would definitely think that they're correlated.

Gin Stephens: In a healthy body, they're supposed to be correlated. Even in an unhealthy body, they have correlations, obviously, but I would think that if your blood glucose is trending up, your insulin would be trending up as well. That's how it's supposed to work.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, actually, Gin, I’ve just realized this episode comes out July 12th. The episode that just came out on my show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast last Friday the 9th, was Gary Taubes. That's exciting. I'm so excited to release that episode. I will put it in the show notes. Did we get all her questions?

Gin Stephens: I think we did.

Melanie Avalon: Cool. Alrighty. Now, we have a question from Todd and the subject is “Pollen while water fasting.” Todd says, “Have you come across any info in regard to taking pollen while water fasting or any type of fasting? I would love to continue to take pollen to relieve allergy responses that my body has to grass and other things in the air, but I also want the best results while fasting, and I do not want insulin to become activated. I take it orally and I will include a picture. I did two days of fasting with a 16-hour window. Today, I am fasting continuously. I used to mix the pollen with oatmeal in the morning, but I decided to go without it while fasting to see how it went. I go on a three and a half to five mile walk in the morning and have noticed my itchy eyes are returning. I also take a prescription for allergies. If I went without the meds and without the pollen, I fear I would be miserable and breathing would be affected. Thanks for any advice on this matter.” Then, he has a picture of the pollen which-- He doesn't show us the label. It's very physical looking.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, like big old giant hunks of pollen. Not gentle little pollen that you can't even see, this is a chunk of pollen.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it looks like rocks or gravel. Looks like gravel.

Melanie Avalon: They're little granules of pollen that look maybe big old crystals of salt, but yellow.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, that's a good description.

Gin Stephens: We could just describe things. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That’s our talent. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I love doing this podcast. Can I just say this is so much fun?

Melanie Avalon: Me too. Listeners, and then I went to the website to look up the actual product and they don't show the ingredient list, but they say that it is 100% raw, natural, and local bee pollen. Do you know what they say on the website? Can I read this to you, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Yes, I would be mad if you didn't.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. They say the only complete food in all of the world with the addition of roughage and water-- I don't even know why you would need roughage, I'm saying. But they say the human body can survive on honey and bee pollen alone. This is because it is the only food which contains all known 96 nutrients including vitamins A to K, including the full complex of Bs, 28 minerals, 14 fatty acids, eight essential amino acids. Oh, several hormone-like compounds, and 22 essential elements, folate, blah, blah, blah. You would have to eat so much bee pollen though to get that-- But this answer to--

Gin Stephens: [laughs] I'm imagining. Now, I literally for a minute was like, “How would that look?” Then, I'm like, “Someone's going to try that.” Someone's going to be like, “I bet you'd lose a lot of weight eating that bee pollen.”

Melanie Avalon: They say it's an antibacterial. Listeners, don't try. I know. Please listeners, do not try this. But that actually answers the question for me. I'm glad I read that because clearly, it's very high in protein, relatively speaking.

Gin Stephens: When you said the word ‘food’ that answered the question but reading that helped a lot. I would sadly, Todd, not have that during the fast. But you're having a 16-hour fast with an 8-hour eating window, I would think you could fit your pollen into that 8-hour eating window, like open your window with it, and then have it maybe at the end of your window. You would only be going 16 hours without it. Definitely take your medication during the fast, that's fine. Keep your medication whenever you need to take it. If you need to wake up in the morning, take your medication, and then keep fasting, and then open your window after 16 hours with the bee pollen, that's what I would do.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I was going to say, 100%. I'm not very schooled in using pollen to address allergies. But if it is something where you're just taking it once a day, no reason that you can't just open your window with it. Wow, I've learned so much. We can put a link in the show notes to this bee pollen. One he sent us is called Eagle Creek is the brand. That is so interesting. I wonder what it tastes like?

Gin Stephens: I don't know. If he was putting it in oatmeal, maybe it's delicious.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know.

Gin Stephens: Maybe you don't taste it at all.

Melanie Avalon: Does it help you with the allergies because if it's local than it has the pollen from all of the things you might be allergic to.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you would think so. That's why local honey is supposed to be good. I don't really know, I'm not an expert on bee pollen.

Melanie Avalon: I just feel like I would react to it, it sounds-- I don't know, even if it was psychosomatic. The idea of putting pollen straight in my body.

Gin Stephens: It might be miraculous. Maybe we should all be having it.

Melanie Avalon: I'll find some here in Atlanta.

Gin Stephens: There probably is in Atlanta.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, okay. I'm going to do it. Hope I don't get anaphylactic shock.

Gin Stephens: Oh, please don’t. [laughs] That was the last episode of The Intermittent Fasting podcast.

Melanie Avalon: I could take some in the ice bath that I make, and then they find me frozen with anaphylactic shock, like that's how I went out. [laughs] Moving on.

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Anisha, and the subject is “IF Before Your Period.” She says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. I really love your podcast. It's been keeping me company during long lockdown walks. I'm from the UK and have been doing IF in different varieties for a few years. I've played around with one meal a day, 20:4 etc. Since two weeks ago, I am now trying 5:2 and loving it. I started off eating 500 calories on down days, and then moved to two 36-hour fasts per week, as I found it was easy to just not eat at all.

However, this week on my second fast for the week, I'm struggling. I'm pretty sure it's due to the fact that I am now due in less than a week and getting PMS symptoms, cravings, low mood, mood swings. I have read online that you shouldn't fast the week before your period as it causes too much stress to the body. I'm wondering if you have any research about this. Should I maybe go back to eating 500 calories the week before my period if I do persevere? I feel I probably can. Am I causing my body too much stress? Would love to hear your thoughts.

Melanie Avalon: All right. This was a great question from, how did you say it, Gin, Anisha?

Gin Stephens: I did.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. We've been talking about this. I feel a lot on recent episodes. We've always been getting questions like this. But Gin, do you feel like we've been getting even more and more questions about this all the time?

Gin Stephens: Yes. Yes, because more and more people are starting to say the women shouldn't fast thing. It's like picking up steam. It's like the mantra, breakfast is the most important meal of the day, and eat six small meals to boost your metabolism, and women shouldn't fast. I put all that together in the same advice camp. I really do.

Melanie Avalon: The figures where it's been popularized, we talked about before, Alisa Vitti in her book, In the FLO and Woman Code. She has popularized this a lot. What's interesting is, Dave Asprey’s book, I feel people read that and felt like he said, women shouldn't fast, but he didn't say that at all in that book, which I found really interesting. He literally said at one point something to the effect of I don't think women shouldn't fast. Actually, right now, the book I'm reading, because I'm going to bring her on the show, is Stephanie Estima. Have you heard of her?

Gin Stephens: I have not.

Melanie Avalon: She wrote a book called The Betty Body. I really, really like it. She talks about this a lot. She has not as an intense of an approach to Alisa Vitti. What's going on here, I think, is if you look at the phases of the menstrual cycle, which I am learning so much about and it's so exciting. But basically, we have the follicular phase, the ovulatory phase, luteal, and then our menstrual cycle. In the luteal phase, which is the three-fourths of the way through, it's the latter half of your cycle before your period, our metabolic rate does increase. People often think that they have cravings for stuff right before their period, and it has something to do with needing carbs or something like that. A large part of it though is just that actually our metabolism actually does increase.

Gin Stephens: Can I pop something in here?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Our body temperature goes up as well. Those two things are very tightly correlated. Anybody who's taking your temperature, I did that for fertility when I was trying to get pregnant. I took my body temperature, and it's fascinating to see as your cycle goes on, your temperature goes up, and that is when your metabolism is also going up.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's the main thing that-- I was talking about Azure earlier, the researcher. The main thing that she's working with Oura on is them adjusting the Oura ring to track fertility and female cycles with body temperature.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think I've talked about this before, but my cohost on Life Lessons-- This is the third time I've mentioned her, Sheri. She has an Oura ring. She had ablation done a while back, so she doesn't actually have her period that she sees, but she knows she's still cycling, because of her temperature. She can tell from her Oura ring.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. That's really cool.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, She told that story on the Life Lessons podcast. I'm not telling stories out of school here, but she can actually see her hormones fluctuating by her body temperature.

Melanie Avalon: It's very much linked. I think partly from this has come this idea that we need to be eating more right before our period. In Alisa Vitti book, she said, it was the equivalent of around 300 calories per day. I haven't looked at the studies beyond that to see if that's consistent across the board. In any case, I have so many thoughts about this. As far as it causing too much stress. I think, one, I want to say that a lot of people, especially, my Facebook group, because people have been talking about this. A lot of people do report that they have adjusted their eating and their fasting for their cycle, and that they have benefited from it greatly. It's not like they stopped fasting before their cycle, it's just that they're more-- maybe they have a longer window, or they're just not as intense as they might be other times. I think it's so, so easy, or it's so often that people are eating restrictively while doing fasting, and they're attributing that restriction to fasting, so they're using fasting as a synonym for restriction when fasting does not have to be restrictive.

One girl posted in the Facebook group, and I thought this was such a good example. She's wonderful, and she posts in the group all the time. She was commenting on a post, and she was saying how she had been restrictive IF keto and then she went more lenient and tried to adjust for her cycle, and it was like a game changer. I think that's an example of changing from being restrictive in general to not being restrictive compared to changing from fasting to not fasting. Does that make sense?

Gin Stephens: 100%. Because that I really think is the key. We say that women shouldn't fast, but what women shouldn't do is over-restrict. We've got to take away the idea that fasting is necessarily over-restriction. One of my friends, she's a moderator in the Facebook community still. She shared yesterday in the moderator group, a screenshot of her diet she did back before she did fasting, and it was her diet journal where she was recording her calories, and what she was eating. She was eating 1200 calories a day, and just looking at the food, it was coffee and a protein bar. That was breakfast, Lunch was a latte and a bagel. It was so restrictive. Dinner was like a chicken breast and whatever.

That is the kind of restriction that is going to make your body think something terrible is going on. So, why are we not telling women not to do that, but we'd never not? I never heard anybody say, “Hey, women don't do low calorie diets. They're bad for you.” But for some reason, she now is leaner than she was when she was doing that crazy restrictive diet, eating all throughout the day, breakfast, lunch, dinner, trying to stick to 1200 to 1300 calories a day. She's leaner now. She's not counting calories. She's eating till she's satisfied. She feels better.

You tell me, which is the one that is going to be worst for your body? The one where you feel awful, and you're restricting all day long? Or, the one where you are feeling great, and you're fasting, and then you eat to satiety every night? Our bodies are not dumb. That's why you have that increased urge to eat before your period if you need more food, your body's like, “Hey, eat some more food,” and you do. Then, you go on about it. You shouldn't stress about the fact that you have to eat more before your cycle, that's not wrong. You're listening to your body. Our bodies really don't want us to over-restrict. But when we tried to do this over restrictive diets, we felt awful, and our bodies fought back. Do what feels good to you. I want us to stop trying to find that externally from other people telling you what you shouldn't eat and when. Even all these people who are like do intermittent fasting, XYZ, well, I don't know, how do you feel?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, even with all of the cycle stuff and taking that into account, because I'm all about data, and learning about your body, and knowing what's happening but I think there's a balance that can be achieved in knowing that, and feeling empowered by that without feeling you have to adjust the entirety of your life around it. I think it should be more intuitive than planned.

Gin Stephens: 100% yes. Yes. Because honestly, throughout history, people just ate and lived. That was it. Now, we're making it so complicated. Listen to your body. If you feel great, that's a good sign. If you don't feel great, that's a bad sign, honestly. That's how simple I want you to make it.

Melanie Avalon: Just really quick one last thing about her question. She says, should I go back to eating-- because she was doing ADF. Oh, she was eating 500 calories on her down days. So, how do you feel about her doing ADF before her period?

Gin Stephens: If she feels like she doesn't feel good, it sounds like she feels like she needs to eat more, her body is saying eat more. I wouldn't try to muscle through ADF if my body was telling me to eat more that day, and it felt bad. I would just eat. Now, I wouldn't just say no, I'm not fasting, but I would have an eating window that felt right to me.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's great.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. We have a question from Carolyn. The subject is “Jiggly menopausal thighs.” Carolyn says, “Hi ladies, I know this is a ‘superficial question.’ I get it that subcutaneous fat is not as dangerous as liver or visceral fat, but I must come clean and confess that it really peeves me that although my postmenopausal body is in pretty great shape, and I feel mostly amazing, my thighs may never see short shorts or skirts again. I'm using red light therapy, have tried cupping, two treatments so far. Get regular exercise and have an almost completely clean diet. I fast 20-ish hours daily with the occasional earlier window and a few ADFs thrown in recently. I know I should count my blessings that at 53, things are quite fine, and I shouldn't concern myself with this issue. But I'd really love to have my firm thighs back. Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

I thought for sure Gin’s new book was going to have the play on words ‘fastinating’ in the title somehow. Ha-ha. If anyone out there wants to steal the title, it's up for grabs. Love you ladies so much. PS: I do use some Beautycounter products and I'm going to bite the bullet, and go all in very, very soon.” Then with lots of XOs. Awesome. All right, can I say something really quickly by the way?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think it's a superficial question. I don't think it's wrong if their body looks a certain way, if that makes you feel more confident in your skin. I don't think that's superficial. People can feel glowing and happy from an outfit that makes them feel really good, so is that superficial? I don't know. I just ponder this a lot. That's all I have to say about that. My soapbox.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I agree. Then, I'm going to have some bad news. I’ve got some bad news for Carolyn, and some bad news for Gin Stephens. I went through menopause. October of 2020 was where I officially hit the one-year mark. Right on average, 51 is the age women usually go through menopause, get to the other side, that's exactly when I did it. I hate being so average, Melanie. I like to be above average, anyway. [laughs] I was average on menopause. Anyhow, my skin has changed a lot over the past year, and I'm just going to say, I totally get it, Carolyn, because I'm looking down at my legs, and I'm like, “Why does my leg look like my grandmother's leg instead of my leg?” It has to do with the hormonal changes that we go through as we get older, which does affect our skin elasticity. I don't think there is any magic potion or supplement that is going to give you back your premenopausal self. I'm sorry, I really don't. I think that we just have to accept that we are aging, and we can either embrace that we're aging or we can be really frustrated. I've decided to embrace it.

That doesn't mean I'm not going to continue to do intermittent fasting, and if I wanted to try something to try to firm something up, I certainly could, but I'm not going to expect my skin to go back to how it was premenopause. Because I think I’m going to be disappointed if I try. I can't exercise my skin back to how it was. It wasn't the fasting and the weight loss, because I haven't changed my size over the past year through menopause. But my skin elasticity is different.

Think about your grandmother. I think about my grandmama, Calhoun, and I always thought she was just beautiful. She had just very, very ivory skin, and it was very soft and gentle. I don't want to use the word ‘saggy,’ because that sounds terrible, but that's the negative form of it, would be saggy, but it just was soft and beautiful. But I see my cheeks losing their shape a little bit and looking a lot more like my grandmama. We've just got to recognize that we feel amazing-- I feel amazing. I'm at the beach, and I'm going to put on my bathing suit, and my thighs don't look as good as they did a year ago, even though my waist size is actually down. So, I haven't gained weight but my skin looks different. I don't know, Melanie. What do you have to say about that?

Melanie Avalon: I think I have some good news for you.

Gin Stephens: Okay. I would like to hear the good news.

Melanie Avalon: And for Carolyn.

Gin Stephens: Okay. I'm not sure there's anything we can do. I know that everybody's trying to sell us something we can do, but what do you think?

Melanie Avalon: Well, I think you nailed it with the changes that happen hormonally and how it's a natural thing, and it's harder to come back, especially if you're doing all the things. I will say, as far as completely clean diet, it's hard to know what that is exactly, and macros can sometimes affect things. But I do think this is more something to be addressed if you actually want to address, because there are a lot of things out there right now that promise to address this. Carolyn said that she tried cupping and red light therapy, for example. I actually did a lot of research on this. I did a blog post, and I haven't updated it yet with the thing that I actually think does work the best, so I need to do that. But the blog post is melanieavalon.com/fatcells, and I go all into the science of fat cells, and collagen, and how these different treatments that they now proclaim to get rid of cellulite and target fat from the outside in with these treatments whether or not they work. I actually feel out of all the things, because there are a lot of things, I think that the Cryoslimming, and Cryotoning treatment works pretty well for this.

Gin Stephens: Do you know what I'm talking about? Is that going to increase skin elasticity? See, that's the thing.

Melanie Avalon: That's what it's for basically. There's also something called venous treatments, which is also supposed to do that. The Cryoslim is for targeted fat burning and tightening up. The Cryotone is just the tightening. Either of those are potential, but I've seen before and afters, and I've met people who have done it, and it's very effective. It is a bit cost prohibitive, and the reason I'm saying this is because Gin really nailed it with how hard it is to address, because of the hormonal situation, because of how you are. On the one hand, it's like, “Oh, that seems too good to be true,” because it requires no effort. It's not doing the hard work. It's not diet and exercise. But that actually might be why you need something like that, because diet and exercise might not tackle it.

Gin Stephens: No, it's not. Your skin is literally different than it was before. The pictures you've seen are of postmenopausal women having done it? Because I promise you, if you're looking at before and afters, the people that are have not been through the transition, it's totally a different thing. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: They are.

Gin Stephens: All right, well, I want Carolyn to try it, and report back, and then I will go try, because you know I'm not the quickest to go do something. [laughs] Now, my thing is, I'm embracing it.

Melanie Avalon: Which I think is totally great too.

Gin Stephens: But it's like things are melting. [laughs] It's like my body is melting. What's happening?

Melanie Avalon: Well, yeah, because you're losing that collagen production. These treatments, what they do is they stimulate that collagen production directly.

Gin Stephens: Well, that makes sense. You would need to do that in order to see a difference.

Melanie Avalon: They're using temperature, and I don't know exactly what the energy part of it is, but it's something, and it's targeted to-- It's basically giving the cells in that area, because it's targeted treatment, the signal to create collagen.

Gin Stephens: Do you have to go get boosters and do it frequently?

Melanie Avalon: The Cryoslim and the Cryotone, yeah, you do it once every two weeks for five or six sessions, or until you've addressed it completely.

Gin Stephens: But then, it's probably going to-- If it's just increasing collagen, that's not going to be permanent.

Melanie Avalon: The Cryoslim also kills fat cells. The reason is it’s for two weeks is because it takes two weeks for the-- They want the body to eliminate the dead fat cells through the lymph system, similar to CoolToning.

Gin Stephens: Or CoolSculpting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, similar to CoolSculpting. I just really like this Cryoslim way, way better than the CoolSculpting from what I've seen. The Cryoslim is doing the fat cells, and it's using the targeted stuff for the collagen production, and then like I said, the Cryotone is just the collagen. But as far as the permanentness, I think it is maintainable. I think so.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm a skeptic. I'm going to admit, because to me, I don't know how the loss of collagen would be reversed and then permanent. That's my question. I understand if it's changing your fat cells, that's a whole different thing.

Melanie Avalon: Well, you'll have to. I would love for you to try.

Gin Stephens: I'm a skeptic. [laughs] Okay, listeners, if you do this, and you are like a provider, you can do it for me for free, and if it works, I will tell everyone forever, and you never have to pay me another thing. I will for free tell everyone forever. [laughs] But I'm not willing to go out and try it because, I'm not going to pay a lot of money for something that I'm a skeptic about. But I'm optimistic. I would do it. I would try it.

Melanie Avalon: If given the opportunity.

Gin Stephens: If given the opportunity, yeah. Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: All right. I need to update that blog post though, because right now it doesn't include Cryoslim. It just talks about CoolSculpting, but yes.

Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode221. You can follow us on Instagram @ifpodcast, @melanieavalon, and @ginstephens. You can get all of the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. All right, well, anything from you Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 220 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. Okay, we have thrilling news about Joovv. They have new devices and we have a discount. Yes, a discount, no longer a free gift, a discount. As you guys know, there are a few non-negotiables in my personal daily routine. I focus on what and when I eat every single day. And I also focus on my daily dose of healthy light through Joovv’s red light therapy devices. Guys, I use my Joovv all the time. Red light therapy is one of the most effective health modalities you can use in your home. I've personally seen so many health benefits, I find it incredible for regulating my circadian rhythm, helping my mood, boosting my thyroid, smoothing my skin, and I've also used it on multiple occasions for targeted pain relief. Anyone who's familiar with red light therapy pretty much knows that Joovv is the leading brand. They pioneered this technology, and they were the first ones to isolate red and near-infrared light and make it accessible and affordable for in-home use. Since then, they've remained the most innovative, forward-thinking light therapy brands out there.

And we're so excited because Joovv just launched their next generation of devices. And they've made huge upgrades to what was already a really incredible system. Their new devices are sleeker, they're up to 25% lighter, and they all have the same power that we've come to expect from them. They've also intensified their coverage area, so you can stand as much as three times further away from the device and still get the recommended dosage. They've also upgraded the setup for the new devices with quick, easy mounting options, so your new Joovv can fit just about any space. And the new devices include some pretty cool new features, things like their Recovery Plus mode, which utilizes pulsing technology to give yourselves an extra boost to recovery from a tough workout with rejuvenating near-infrared light. And this is my personal favorite update. For those of us who like to use do devices to wind down at night, they now have an ambient mode that creates a calming, lower intensity of light at night. Guys, I am so excited about this. Using this light at night is way healthier than bright blue light from all of our screens, and much more in line with your circadian rhythm. I was using my current Joovv devices at night anyway to light my whole apartment, so this new ambient mode is really going to be a game-changer for me. Of course, you still get the world-class customer service from your helpful, friendly Joovv team.

So, if you're looking for a new Joovv device for your home, we have some very exciting news. You can go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code, IFPODCAST. You'll get an exclusive discount on Joovv’s newest devices. Yes, discount, I said it. That's J-O-O-V-V dotcom, forward slash, I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. Exclusions apply, and this is for a limited time only. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer, is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare and makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often test high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years and your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body.

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter, and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode 220 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am cranky.

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. [laughs] I have got to tell you what just has been happening over the past few days that is kind of unbelievable and infuriating, you're going to be like, “What?” It has to do with Amazon and Fast. Feast. Repeat.

Melanie Avalon: Can I guess?

Gin Stephens: You can guess, but you're going to be wrong. You're going to be a little right, but a little wrong. [laughs] I guarantee you're going to be on the right track. What do you think it is?

Melanie Avalon: Something with how they're selling it?

Gin Stephens: Yes. Something with the listing.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. Did they put it in their own category?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Did they change the title?

Gin Stephens: No. It has to do with the copycat books that are out there.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Are those ranking higher?

Gin Stephens: No, not even that. For people who don't know, if I go way back, if you've been listening for a long time, you'll remember, as Melanie will, how Delay, Don't Deny--

Melanie Avalon: Are they selling the copycats as your real thing?

Gin Stephens: Yes, and let me explain, it is wacko. If you remember back in-- I think it was 2018, I got an email-- actually it was like a Facebook messenger from somebody I didn't know. They're like, “Hey, I am an author on Amazon, and my book has been counterfeited, and people are selling it, and your book is also being sold by the same counterfeiter that’s selling mine. So, you may want to check and see if yours is legit.” Well, turns out, to make a long story short, it was a counterfeit version, had a different font, it had different typos. They had been selling a counterfeit version in the Buy Box on Amazon through third-party sellers for months. They finally got that taken care of, but I didn't know it could happen, because when you go to Amazon and you buy something and you click Buy Now, you don't pay attention where it's coming from, you're on Amazon, you're on the main listing for whatever it is, whether it's bug spray or a book, you just click Add to Cart, you buy it.

Well, they changed something in 2018 so that anybody could get the Buy Box, if theirs is the cheapest, it's to protect the consumer because you're going to get the best deal. It might not be Amazon selling it. It might be Larry's House of Books, for example, selling your copy for cheaper than Amazon. They want you to get the best price. Well, Larry's House of Books might have some counterfeits. That's the problem, and that was what was happening with mine. It wasn't Larry's House of Books, but it was these other third-party sellers. I just made up Larry's House of Books, if it really exists, I'm sorry, Larry. [laughs]

Anyway, my book had been counterfeited for months. Well, that's one of the reasons I really wanted to go with a traditional publisher for Fast. Feast. Repeat., which I did and we haven't seen any counterfeits of it, but what they're doing now is copycats. If you go to Amazon and search for Fast. Feast. Repeat., there's like this crazy, several, probably multiple blank books. You could go and you could like self-publish a blank book called What When Wine, and it could have nothing in it, but blank pages, but it's called What When Wine, and it might be by Melanie Avalano.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I see.

Gin Stephens: There's Fast. Feast. Repeat. by like Ginna Stephano.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, listeners, look this up. There's like 20 million.

Gin Stephens: They're all fake, but they're not even real books, but they copy the title a little bit. They copy the way it looks.

Melanie Avalon: So, what happens if you buy them?

Gin Stephens: You get a copy of a blank book. Okay, but it's not illegal to use someone else's title because titles can't be copyrighted or trademarked unless they're in a series like Chicken Soup for the Soul. Like for Delay, Don't Deny, I was able to trademark that because it had a series of books, Delay, Don't Deny, Feast Without Fear, has Delay, Don't Deny delayed on tonight in the title. Then, even Fast. Feast. Repeat. has Delay, Don't Deny in the title. It's a series. It's trademarked, but Fast. Feast. Repeat. is not trademarked. So, here's the thing that was alarming. I got a message from somebody who's like, “Hey, I was showing your book to somebody and I told them to buy it, and I clicked on the listing for it, and then we looked at the Kindle version, then we looked at the Audible version, then we clicked back to paperback, and it went to the fake one.” When you were in the real listing, the real listing for Fast. Feast. Repeat, if you clicked away from the paperback for a minute and went to Audible, and then click to Kindle or whatever, and clicked back to paperback, it was the fake one was in the real listing. The fake cover, the fake name of it, you would get the fake one. Here's what's so infuriating. You can look and see how many copies a book is selling, the fake version of Fast. Feast. Repeat. was ranked number 26,000 out of all books on Amazon, which means a lot of people were buying it, a lot of people over the past week have bought the fake cookbook, blank book version, when they were actually in my real listing. Can you believe it? Somehow got merged, the fake one got merged with the real one.

I was like, “Emergency,” to my publisher. And they first didn't understand what I was telling them. They just thought I was complaining about the fake one. I'm like, “No, I'm complaining because the fake one is in the real listing.” It was the fake cover, it popped over to the fake cover when you would click on it. It seems to be fixed today. But as of yesterday, it was still going to the wrong one if you clicked away from it, can you believe the nerve of these criminals? How did they get it merged with the real one?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, how did they?

Gin Stephens: I don't know. They are so crafty.

Melanie Avalon: Did you talk to Amazon at all?

Gin Stephens: No, I did not. I put it in the hands of my publisher because that’s who-- they have a department and a legal team, but they have to go through it, through the right department, finding the right department, but it looks like they have fixed it but it just made me want to throw up, because also think about someone who has ordered the book, thinking they're getting Fast. Feast. Repeat., and then this nonsense shows up, can you see it's like not even by Gin Stephens, it's by some name that's close to mine? One of them was by Stephen Gin or something like that. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's crazy.

Gin Stephens: It is crazy, and it is absolutely infuriating. Then, the next thing that will probably happen is people will start leaving one-star reviews for Fast. Feast. Repeat. saying, “I got a blank book. This book is garbage.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: That'll probably happen next. “Don't buy this, it's fake.” But no, they're piggybacking on the main listing. Y'all, please don't do that. If you ever get a counterfeit book, please do not leave a review on the real book because it shows up as-- even though you got the counterfeit book, it actually affects and hurts the real book, because that's what happened with Delay, Don't Deny after the counterfeit came out. People who thought they were helping, they're like, “I ordered, and I got a fake one. One star, don't recommend.” I'm like, “No, no, no, stop doing that. You're giving Delay, Don't Deny one-star reviews, not the fake one.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.

Gin Stephens: This book is counterfeit. No. [laughs] It's the seller, that's the problem. Anyway, why can't people just find a different hobby than faking other people's books?

Melanie Avalon: And stealing from people.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, if they put all of their creativity to good.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because they clearly have skills.

Gin Stephens: They’ve got skills, but people are buying it. That's the thing, because it's ranking so high. I mean 26,000 may not sound high, but it is.

Melanie Avalon: Well, if you think about how many books there are in the world. It's pretty high.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's when I really got my publishers attention on like, “Do you notice that it's ranked 26,000, which means that people are buying it.” They're like, “Oh, that's not good.” [laughs] They're thinking they're getting the real one and they're not. Oh, my God. Anyway, I just had to share that story. Listeners, if you get the fake one, return it to Amazon and [laughs] get the real one. Story number one of why Gin does not buy supplements on Amazon anymore. If it's that hard to buy a book.-

Melanie Avalon: That stuff you're putting in your body,-

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: -makes you a little bit nervous. Well, I'm sorry. [laughs] I'm going to put it out to the universe that that does not happen again. Seems like it was dealt with faster this time around than last time maybe?

Gin Stephens: Well, it took a little longer. Well, I figured out a way to deal with the counterfeits, personally where I didn't even have to involve Amazon, and it worked really well, I'm not going to tell what it was. [laughs] My secret way of dealing with the counterfeits, and basically, I assumed--

Melanie Avalon: This sounds-- [laughs] gosh.

Gin Stephens: I assumed that the third-party sellers, were also victims of a counterfeit and didn't know. I approached them as of that. They always took it down when I approached them that way, but you had to do a test buy. I've done so many test buys of Delay, Don't Deny, because I know when they're fake-- if I hold it in my hand, I know, there's certain things to look for, with the font and with the typos. There's so many versions of the fake one. It's like remarkable. The 2018 fake ones cycled back through earlier this year. But the third-party sellers, whether they know or not, they pretend like they didn't know and they're like, “I'm so shocked. I would never sell a counterfeit,” and they take it right down after I do my test buy and contact them. If I said I wasn't going to tell my secrets, I'm telling my secrets. But I have to look at it like all the time.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Wow.

Gin Stephens: I know when one is counterfeit, because the number of copies they have available, I can just tell. Good times. [laughs] Yeah, it is not easy, trying to just do a legitimate job. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's how you know you've made it, I guess.

Gin Stephens: Well, at least there's not a fake podcast, Intermittent Fasting.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I was just thinking about, I was like, “Wow,” but that would be really hard to do.

Gin Stephens: What if they had somehow gotten it so that when people thought they were downloading Intermittent Fasting Podcast through the real listing, they got like them--?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, like something else.

Gin Stephens: Fake people.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Oh, that would be really upsetting. Man, if that happened to my show, my Melanie Avalon, I would cry.

Gin Stephens: It feels so out of control, because we trust these big companies. We need Amazon to protect everyone who's selling things, and it doesn't just happen to books, it happens to people who are selling any product on Amazon. The counterfeiters and the scammers are so crafty. My dream would be for Amazon to contact me and say, “I want you to be on our team helping us solve this problem,” because I have so many ideas about how they could just put some more cross checks in place and things, and it's fixable. They could fix it.

Melanie Avalon: Well, maybe somebody who works for Amazon is listening. Send us an email to questions@ifpodcast.com.

Gin Stephens: I would love to help them solve the problem, not just for me, but if it's happening to me, how many people is that happening to? What's up with you?

Melanie Avalon: I had that interview with Dr. John Jaquish. The guy I was talking about, I read the book, Weight Lifting Is a Waste of Time. It's really revolutionized my ideas about exercise. I really want to start using his system, which I should because it is sitting in my apartment. The long story short, and listeners you're going to have to listen to the episode because it was so, so good. The long story short is that I guess with normal weightlifting, we are limited by our range of motion. We're limited by the weakest part of our muscle, when we're doing like a certain movement. I don't do weightlifting, when you're picking up something or certain movement, the bend or the point where you have the weakest potential that limits your entire movement and you can't get the maximum stimulus of your muscle. So he has a resistant band system that apparently gets rid of all of those issues, and you only have to do it like 10 minutes is the entire thing a few days a week.

We talked about this, I think, last time. He talks all about how exercise science, a lot of it's just incorrect. I'm really excited. I have a link for them. If listeners want to get the system themselves, so I want to put that out there. It's melanieavalon.com/x3, and then the coupon code, SAVE50, I think gives you $50 off, but I'm going to start using it. I feel brands and people send me stuff a lot, and it just takes me until I actually interview them or sit down and do the research and then like, “Okay, I really want to start using this.” So, I'm excited. I might actually start using it. That's the biggest thing. Do you want to jump into fasting stuff?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's do. We're all about everything today. Consumer advice, exercise.

Melanie Avalon: I have one more fun thing. When I do my one meal a day at night every night, it's usually two to four hours. I actually read during it. I know they say you're not supposed to-- when you eat you know you're not supposed to be reading or whatever.

Gin Stephens: They say a lot of things.

Melanie Avalon: I know, it's my me time and it's my book reading time, and it's my research time. It feels so good to just-- I don't know, read and research and eat, which is fabulous. In any case, I usually start the beginning of my one meal a day reading, like, the books that I need to be reading and taking notes and all that. Then, I transitioned into the random stuff that I want to research that's more casual. Fun fact. Do you know why cheddar cheese is orange?

Gin Stephens: Hmm. Why is it orange? I don't know. Is it something that the cows are eating?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Is that right?

Melanie Avalon: Sort of, not really. Yes, a little bit, [laughs] because I was researching cheeses, and all the additives, and I was like, “Why is cheddar cheese orange? I want to make my own cheddar cheese.” Okay, so originally--

Gin Stephens: Well, not all cheddar is orange. There's white cheddar.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Originally, back in the day, when they were making it, the milk that was often used to make cheddar cheese was the milk that was really high in beta carotene, so that the cows that were eating grass--

Gin Stephens: See, that's what I thought.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Back in the day, the quality of the grass created the beta carotene color in the cheese. They wanted cheese that was more orange because it meant there was more vitamin A or beta carotene. Now, that is no longer the case. All the cheddar cheese that you see at the store, it's an additive. That kind of blew my mind. I was like, “I'm going to make my own cheddar cheese.” Then, I googled how to make it. Gin, it's the most complicated thing, I think, I've ever read-- I didn't even finish reading. I was like, “I can't do this.”

Gin Stephens: No. Now, there's certain types of quick cheeses you can make. I actually have a book.

Melanie Avalon: Cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: Well, not only cottage cheese. I have a whole book about quick cheese making. I can't remember the name of it. Somebody in one of my groups one time was like, “Gin, you would love this,” I bought the book and put it on the shelf. [laughs] And I haven't made any.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I will say so-- It's kind of like remember, in Harry Potter when they were trying to make the potions. Listeners, just google how to make cheddar cheese. You have to heat it to these very specific temperatures and then move it around and add things. I couldn't even finish reading. I was like, “I can't.” Then, I skipped to the bottom, and it was something to effect of like, “That wasn't too hard, was it?” [laughs] I cannot-- I can't do it.

Gin Stephens: Hey, I can mill wheat into flour and make bread. That's good enough, and then I'll just buy some cheese. But I'm so proud that I was right that it was what the cows were eating. That's why flamingos are pink, for example, based on what they're eating.

Melanie Avalon: That's why salmon back in the day was orange color. Well, it's still from what they're eating, it's just fed into them. Okay.

Gin Stephens: Very good. Yeah, I'm not going to make cheese.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to make cottage cheese and I'll report back. It seems very approachable.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Well, let me know and then maybe I'll pull that book off the shelf.

Melanie Avalon: Because I want fat-free cottage cheese. You can really only do that if you make it yourself, if you don't want all the crazy stuff they add.

Gin Stephens: The additives. Dairy is tricky. Dairy is one of the hardest things not having whole foods, trying to find good organic, everything, not easy. Here in Augusta, that is. It's probably super easy in Atlanta.

Melanie Avalon: It is easier, for sure.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. Today, I want to tell you about Prep Dish’s New Super Fast Menus. These are in addition to their three existing meal plans, Keto, Paleo, and Gluten free. Instead of scrambling and spending every single night prepping meals, do all of your prep at once in under one hour. You'll get delicious healthy meals on the table, even when you have limited time. If you've been a longtime listener, you know we're huge fans of Prep Dish. No more scrambling at each meal. Instead go into mealtime with a plan. Like Melanie would say, “You've got this.”

Prep Dish subscribers now get four menus every week. Gluten free, Paleo, Low carb keto, and the new Super Fast menus. Now, you can prep a whole week's meals in just an hour. You don't have to choose between meal prep and spending precious time with your family. With Prep Dish’s new Super Fast Menus, you get fast food, but it's homemade and healthy. If you've thought about trying Prep Dish but worried you wouldn't have time to do the prep, now is a great time to check out the free trial. The founder, Allison, is offering listeners a free two-week trial, and you can get that by going to prepdish.com/ifpodcast for this amazing deal. Again, that's prepdish.com/ifpodcast, and your first two weeks are absolutely free. Try it out, see what you think about the new Super Fast Menus, and then send us an email. Let us know, how you like it. Now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, on that note, books and cheese, and now we can jump into everything. We have a question from Jennifer. Jennifer says, “Good morning, I just started IF, 20:4, one meal a day, two weeks ago. My pants are already looser, and the scale shows down between 7 to 10 pounds. I still struggle with hunger during the weekdays at work. I think mostly because I despise my job, so the days drag and I daydream about food to distract myself. Being so unhappy and bored at work does make fasting more difficult in my opinion. Food was always something I looked forward to daily since I dread going to work every day. Now, I am binge listening to the podcast all day to keep me motivated to stay with my fasting schedule. I'm on Episode 93 as of this morning.

I do work a second job weekends, and one weeknight and I love that job. Tonight, since I have to work immediately after my day job, I will be attempting a 45-hour fast. I close my window at 9:00 PM Tuesday and I will open it at 6:00 PM Thursday. Wish me luck. Anyway, my question is about--” what did you say, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I always say glucomannan. That could be wrong. I don't know that I've ever heard anybody say it out loud. Listeners, we might be saying it wrong. Glucomannan is how I think it said but who knows.

Melanie Avalon: “My question is about glucomannan supplements. In my previous life, as a calorie counter, I tried taking glucomannan to try and trick my stomach into feeling full and eating less. It didn't work for me well, because I didn't necessarily eat when hungry. I just ate whenever, often when stressed and as a reward for having to deal with this terrible job. However, now I apparently have a very active migrating motor complex as my stomach growls, and I feel queasy often throughout the day. I thought maybe this supplement would help with that. Thoughts? Would it break my fast? Thank you both for your books, your time, your podcast, and your passion and for sharing it with the world. I do believe that you are well on your way to changing the world. Have a great day, Jennifer. PS.” Yes. I was going to say this. She said, “Yes, I am actively looking for a job I love. Wish me luck.”

Gin Stephens: I'm sending you so much luck, Jennifer. Wishes for luck.

Melanie Avalon: I hadn't read her PS the first time through, and the first thing I was going to say was, “Maybe look for a new job?” Wishing you luck, Jennifer.

Gin Stephens: All right, I have a lot of things to pop in about this, Jennifer. First of all, I want to say you're only two weeks, so your body is still adjusting. So, that is why you're having trouble right now. You're not yet adapted to the clean fast. During the adjustment period, if you feel shaky or queasy, we want you to go ahead and eat, because you don't want to feel queasy and shaky, and you won't feel that way when your body is adjusted to fasting. Also, make sure you're fast and clean. You probably are if you've been listening to our podcast, but just really double check that you're only having black coffee, plain tea, nothing added at all, plain water, no fruit added in there and nothing for flavor, no flavored anything, don't have flavored coffee. Make sure you're not doing any of those little things because that could actually make you feel worse, and you don't realize that if you're not fasting clean.

Let's talk about the glucomannan, that would be a no. We don't want to try to trick our stomach. You don't need to do that. First of all, you don't want to add things into your digestive system that are bulky, like glucomannan, fiber, any of that. Fun fact, I also tried that as a trick back in the day. It was on Dr. Oz. Did you ever see it on Dr. Oz, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I didn't see it on Dr. Oz.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I tried everything that was on Dr. Oz, but he was like, “Here's the number one trick to glucomannan.” I went out and bought it just like the rest of America because everything would be all sold out.

Melanie Avalon: I used to cook with it.

Gin Stephens: Did you? Ugh. As a thickener?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. I used to get the powder. If you mixed it up with-- what would I mix it up with? I would make this really, really-- Oh, I would get like low carb Atkins chocolate milkshake things and if you added the glucomannan, it made it into this really thick pudding.

Gin Stephens: Good times. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: And it would sit in my stomach for day-- I'd be like, “Argh.”

Gin Stephens: It could actually literally hurt you. Glucomannan could actually clog you up in a way that is dangerous. This is not something I would recommend for anybody to do because it really could be dangerous in your digestive system. I remember hearing about that later, after Dr. Oz was like, “Try this,” then people like, “Maybe don't try that.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I remember being shocked, I would mix it in with the stuff and it would get really thick. Then, I would usually eat it right away, but if you let it sit a little bit longer and come back to it, it would just perpetually thicken. It's like, “Ugh,” oh, gosh.

Gin Stephens: But you definitely don't want that during the fast, 100%, not during the fast, but I also wouldn't do it during your eating window, because I think it also binds with nutrients and keeps your body from-- that sounds like a really fast way, if you're using it in you're eating window, to nutrient deficiencies, because we really want to be nourishing our body with good food. I would take that glucomannan and throw it away, you don't want to try that. Now, I want to have a little note about this 45-hour fast where you're opening your window at 6:00 PM, I actually don't recommend that. If and when you get to reading Fast. Feast. Repeat., I want you to go to the Alternate Day Fasting chapter and read the part about having an up day after a down day. You need to open your window on the up day after a longer fast, so that you have enough time to have an up day, which would be at least two meals in a window of at least six to eight hours. 12 is even fun. When they did the research on alternate day fasting, there was no restriction on the up days. People would get up in the morning and eat whenever they felt like and eat the whole day.

If you're opening your window at 6:00 PM, you're definitely not going to have time to do an up day after 6:00 PM. I would always do shorter, 36 to 42 is really a better length because then you have time to fit in an up day after that. I think I got it all. Body is still adjusting, glucomannan in the trash, you need an up day, boom.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. Shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes, this is from Rebecca. The subject is “Less frequent bowel movements? LOL, sorry.” [laughs] I had to read the whole thing. I love that, Rebecca. All right, Rebecca says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. First, I want to say that I'm so, so grateful I found you ladies in November of 2018. You both completely changed my life. After struggling with weight gain and binge eating for years, and all of the mental struggles that go along with these issues, I started IF, lost about 65 pounds and have kept it off with ease. I've often seen many non-scale victories. Chronic pain from a foot injury decreased, skin tags fell off, mental clarity throughout the day, don't think about food constantly anymore, mental health has improved, etc.

However, I noticed one odd thing that has been consistent throughout these last two and a half years. There's no easy way to say this, so I'm sorry to be blunt, LOL, but I don't poop as much as I used to. Before starting IF, I used to have a daily bowel movement without fail, but ever since I started fasting, I would say, I average one bowel movement every three to four days. I don't feel constipated or uncomfortable or in pain. But it worries me that I don't have a daily poo anymore. Again, sorry for the awkward topic.

My question to you ladies is why the heck is this happening? Is this okay/normal? Is there anything you can recommend to do or to take to help me become a bit more regular? Any info or suggestions you provide will be greatly appreciated. Some background. I'm 28, eat mainly, whole foods, but I'm not super strict because of my binge eating habits in the past, and walk about four miles daily. I usually follow a 20:4 fasting pattern and start eating at 7:00 to 8:00 PM at night. I'm a total night owl like you, Melanie. Wolves unite, sleep chronotype quiz reference.” I love that by the way. That's just me talking.

She continues to say, “I'm looking forward to hopefully hearing your thoughts about this. Thank you both so much for everything. You're truly making this world a better place. Love from Boston, Rebecca.” That's the second question to say that, Melanie, that may have given me the chills.

Melanie Avalon: About making the world a better place?

Gin Stephens: Yes. That is the same thing that Jennifer said, and now Rebecca said it. I'm feeling--

Melanie Avalon: It's not on purpose.

Gin Stephens: What?

Melanie Avalon: I said it was not on purpose.

Gin Stephens: I'm like we are making the world a better place on purpose, and then I got what you meant.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I love the sleep chronotype quiz reference as well. Although, I am a dolphin, like I said before.

Gin Stephens: You have now figured out that you're a dolphin.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I am. We talked about this, Dr. Michael Breus’ The Power of When.

Gin Stephens: I'm still a lion.

Melanie Avalon: Still a lion. Yep.

Gin Stephens: And I'm a Leo

Melanie Avalon: Yep. For listeners, the lion’s the early riser, the wolf is the late night, wake up late, and that dolphin is just the restless insomniac that can never sleep. I was thinking about this this morning. All of my biohacking hacks for my sleep, they really work. I sleep eight or nine hours every night and I pretty much sleep straight through.

Gin Stephens: Well, that doesn't sound like a dolphin to me.

Melanie Avalon: Well, it's all of the biohacking stuff. I am definitely a dolphin, I would not be sleeping if I hadn't really attacked it. Because obviously with his book, he provides tools and tips and tricks to take charge of it. But even if you fix it, it's not like you change your chronotype.

Gin Stephens: Okay, so naturally, you would have insomnia.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But all the light and all the-- because normally the dolphins are like super sensitive to everything, so they're not sleeping, and then they're not-- with the mental stuff. They're just much more likely to respond to everything that would make them not sleep. My point is, this stuff works, that's why I talk about it all the time.

Gin Stephens: I might be a lion riding on a dolphin. [laughs] Well, I didn't have trouble with insomnia, really until menopause.

Melanie Avalon: I think I told you, the quiz that you take, if you're a dolphin, it'll identify you--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm not a dolphin. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It asks all these questions, about rumination and sleeping on planes, can you sleep on airplanes?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe take the quiz, I'm curious.

Gin Stephens: I've taken it before.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you have?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and it said lion.

Melanie Avalon: Okay.

Gin Stephens: But I could take it again.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if it changed at all with menopause. He says you do change throughout life.

Gin Stephens: I did take it in the fall.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, when you were still in menopause?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. You probably are. He said menopause is when most people become lions or dolphins. Maybe you became a more dolphin-y lion.

Gin Stephens: That’s why I said, I'm a lion riding on a dolphin. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I don't remember what kids are, like, babies. But teens are wolves usually. And then adults are bears/your natural chronotype.

Gin Stephens: Teenagers, definitely. It's been amazing as a mother to watch both my boys go through that change. They really do stay awake all the time at night, but then want to sleep all day, just naturally. And then, they stopped doing it naturally, when they get older. It's been fun. Will gets up early like a normal person now, and so does Cal.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. I can never get up early. Oh, I was talking with one of my friends the other day on Voxer. Do you ever use Voxer?

Gin Stephens: No, I don't know anything about it.

Melanie Avalon: It's like a voice app, and he sent me a Vox like 8:00 AM. He was like, talking and then he was like, “What am I doing now?” He's like, “Maybe I'll take like a nap.” I'm like, cracking up. I was like, “I don't understand. How early did you have to get up if you can take a nap at 8:00 AM?” This blows my mind. If I was up at 8:00 AM, I don't remember the last time I was up at 8:00 AM.

Gin Stephens: I've already been up for a while by 8:00 AM.

Melanie Avalon: What?

Gin Stephens: I can't imagine the last time I slept till 8:00 AM.

Melanie Avalon: [gasps]

Gin Stephens: Even when I would go to the beach with friends, and we would stay out really late, and I wouldn't get to sleep till like 2:00 AM, this is recently, I still wake up at 6:00, 6:30 AM.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh. If I'm up at 6:00, it's because I didn't go to bed. If I was up at 8:00, I would be so proud. So proud of myself.

Gin Stephens: If I'm up at 6:00, it's a day that ends in day. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Wait, if you're--?

Gin Stephens: It's a day of the week that ends in day, that's all the days. I always wake up early. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Did not follow that. I was like, “Does that mean it's still daylight when you go to bed? It's daylight when you wake up?” Good times. For Rebecca's question, this is a really great question, and it's something that I see a lot perusing the carnivore Facebook groups, which I'm not currently carnivore. I do know that when I did my carnivore-ish thing for a while, where I was basically just eating meat and coconut oil, I have no idea how often I was having bowel movements, and that's really a little bit shocking for me that I reflect on now. I just realized I'm talking about my bowel movements to all people listening, but that's okay. Now, I am wanting things to be flowing, and it's a concern of mine. So, it's weird for me to think that there was a time when I didn't even think about it. It seems to be a very common thing, like I said, in the carnivore world, because people are doing-- there's no fiber. The question-- and I'm not saying that they are the go-to authority on this, but a lot of people have healed themselves, their digestive issues with a carnivore diet. I'm not suggesting a carnivore diet. I'm just using this to explain my answer.

The question that they usually ask themselves, do you feel constipated, or do you feel uncomfortable, or do you just feel normal, but you're not having daily bowel movements? Usually, 70% of the time the people in those groups say that they feel completely normal, but they're not having bowel movements, but then 30% of the time, they say they do feel kind of stuffed up. I know that's a very casual way of looking at it, do I feel constipated or do I not? I know they say that you're supposed to be having daily bowel movements. But if there are people not having daily bowel movements, free of health issues, and feeling fine, it's hard for me to say that their gut state isn't a “healthy one” or that that's a problem. It's really hard to know.

I think we are so in the infancy still of the gut microbiome and there's so many intense polarizing ideas about it, especially when you look at the carnivore side versus the very plant-based side. What gut bacteria signify a healthy digestive state and what does it all mean? Basically, it's just really, really hard to know. And then, that was a carnivore example, but in the fasting world, I think people do experience this as well. My suggestion is the question that you already asked, so do you feel constipated or uncomfortable? If you do, then hands down, I would look at addressing it. If you don't, I would leave it up to you. If you're not stressing about it, and you're not feeling unwell, I don't know that I would stress out too much about it. Either way, the answer will be the same. So, as far as to how to get more bowel movements, if you like, magnesium is a great thing for that.

Actually, I think I did this on purpose, but BiOptimizers is actually a sponsor of today's episode, they make a really awesome magnesium supplement that uses all seven types of magnesium, because there's seven types, and most of the supplements on the market don't contain all the seven types. Oh, it was so interesting. I take that supplement. When we were recording the newest ad for them, which I think is the ad running on this episode, and I asked on my Facebook group for listeners who have used it to provide their testimonials if they liked, and so many people commented. Oh, my goodness, I was a little bit overwhelmed, which is really exciting how it's helping so many people, but a lot of people find that really helps their bowel movements. If that magnesium doesn't, there are magnesiums that have even more of a laxative effect. The natural--

Gin Stephens: Like citrate.

Melanie Avalon: Magnesium Citrate, I like the Pure Encapsulations brand. That works really well. Natural Calm, it's magnesium, I forget which form is in that, but that works.

Gin Stephens: I think that one's also citrate.

Melanie Avalon: I thought it was, but I actually don't think it is. Wait, let me check. It says magnesium citrate on part of the bottle, on part of the listing on Amazon. It says, “magnesium citrate is better absorbed by your body than magnesium oxide.” But then when you go to the ingredient list, it says magnesium as magnesium carbonate. That is so confusing.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that must be just how it's created. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: But magnesium carbonate is different than magnesium citrate.

Gin Stephens: I'm married to a chemist, he could probably explain why it's not, but I don't know. I would guess.

Melanie Avalon: Well, in any case, I find that it works really well, especially because you make it as a drink. In addition to the magnesium, you're getting all the liquid with it. If you really want a magnesium that will just have a laxative effect, it's really not going to give you any of the health benefits of magnesium besides the laxative effect, magnesium oxide, I think is what it is, but this specific brand is Mag 007. That is kind of the last-- if you just need to pull out all the stops. The thing about magnesium is the reason I like it for bowel movements is, it's not habit forming. It's not going to injure your intestines or anything like that. It really just keeps things moving through. GI docs will often prescribe laxatives, like--

Gin Stephens: Like Ex-Lax? I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: There's like all the ones that you can get over the counter. I just don't see any reason to do those because magnesium will give you the exact same result. Other things that can help, vitamin C also has a laxative effect. Then, there are other types of laxatives that actually work by a stimulant mechanism. So, that's things like Senna and cascara. But I don't really recommend those because there's debates as to whether or not they can be habit forming. So, I would really go the magnesium route and/or addressing the food choices. She says that she's eating mostly whole foods. The reason I actually first went because, listeners know I often follow a really high protein, low fat, high fruit diet. Honestly, the reason I first got allured with the high fruit part of it was that I found that it really did just keep things flowing. So, playing with your food choices also will-- obviously going to supplements is the last thing I actually want to do. Ultimately, I think it would be the best to address it through food choices. So, playing around with what you're eating can have different effects as well. That was a really long answer, Gin.

Gin Stephens: Did I tell you that I finally switched to BiOptimizers Magnesium?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. How is it going?

Gin Stephens: I'm really enjoying it.

Melanie Avalon: Yay. How many do you take each night?

Gin Stephens: Two.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Do you find it helps your sleep?

Gin Stephens: Yes. The reason I think that I struggled with it is because it took me a couple nights for me to get that effect with their magnesium, like the first night I didn't sleep very well, and the second night, I didn't sleep very well. I'm like, “I am going to try this again,” because the magnesium I had been using for so long, like way before even we'd met BiOptimizers, like the one I'd been using for since like 2014, I think they changed their formulation. I heard from someone that they had. And then, I'm like, “Wait a minute, that might be what's happening.” Then, I was at the beach, and I didn't have it with me. I grabbed like a cheap one, just at Target because I was at Target and took just an over-the-counter cheap Target brand and slept better. I'm like, “There is something wrong with my magnesium. That is true.” Then, I got back home and I'm like, “Okay, I'm going to try this BiOptimizers.” Like I said, the first couple of nights, it might have taken a while for it to build up for whatever reason, because it's all those different types, so I don't know. Since then, it's been great. I'm officially using it. Anyway, it’s only taken me this long. When I find something that works, you don't want to change it till it stopped working. Again, I think they changed my old one. Anyhow, I have a one-word answer for helping with constipation, and that word is beans. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Beans would kill me. If I were to eat beans, I would be so constipated.

Gin Stephens: What?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Okay, I recently have started-- I told you I was making dried beans now. Did I tell you that? I got all these fancy beans, and I'm like soaking them and making them in the-- I have the Pampered Chef version of the Instant Pot, which is amazing. I'll make my beans in there, in the pressure cooker.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, what is the Pampered Chef version special about the Instant Pot?

Gin Stephens: Well, it's the only one I have. I've never used the Instant Pot. I don't know how they compare.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's not the Instant Pot brand.

Gin Stephens: Right. I don't have the Instant Pot, but I have the Pampered Chef version pressure cooker. Similar idea, but it's not an Instant Pot. It's the Pampered Chef Quick Cooker. Anyway, long story short, I wanted-- Kleenex, you just say Kleenex, I guess you just say Instant Pot now, even though that's not the one I have. Anyway, when I eat a lot of beans, like I go to the bathroom, like good ones. Okay, there's way too much information, sorry, but multiple times in one day in a good way.

Melanie Avalon: It would be so funny if we were doing this podcast in front of the audience, if we could see the audience.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Would they be horrified? Sorry.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. I just don't know how much I would be saying all of this.

Gin Stephens: I know. That's true. I probably would.

Melanie Avalon: I probably would. No, I would.

Gin Stephens: I'm at the point where-- we were trying to figure out today how many millions of downloads we've had of this podcast, and we were based on-- like it, we knew it was 7 million at one-- Anyway, I'm like, so now--

Melanie Avalon: It's fine.

Gin Stephens: Millions of people know that feed Gin beans, and she's going to be going to the bathroom a lot, but in a good way. When you're going to the bathroom the right amount, it just feels good. That's all I'm going to say.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, can I do a public service announcement as we're talking about this?

Gin Stephens: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: I will say for anybody if they ever just find they're at this place of constipation, of misery and that nothing is going to change, getting a colonic can be so, so helpful. The reason this is a public service announcement, is don't do the closed system. Because if you go to the closed system and have a bad experience, you're going to write off colonics, but the open system is a game changer. That's my public service announcement. Find an open system.

Gin Stephens: Okay. I would like you to guess. Is Gin ever going to have a colonic? Yes or no? Audience, go ahead and make your guess before Melanie makes hers. And now register your guesss. And now Melanie, make your guess.

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: No. [laughs] Nope.

Melanie Avalon: It feels so good.

Gin Stephens: Not doing it. Sorry, not doing it.

Melanie Avalon: I told you about how I interviewed that woman in her 70s. Did I tell you that?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Ann Louise Gittleman?

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I think you mentioned that. I didn't know she was in her 70s, or maybe I forgot.

Melanie Avalon: She is wise and older, and is a multiple New York Times bestseller. On the interview that I did recently with her, she mentions colonics in her book, and I asked them about her, and she said that she thinks they are one of the key factors in her longevity. And that made me so happy.

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I'm glad that--

Melanie Avalon: She has a system in her home, I am so jealous.

Gin Stephens: Well, you can go right from that to your cold shower. [laughs] Again, good times. I did want to add something, and you said it, you touched on it, but I want to reiterate what you said or should I just say iterate, that I'm going to reiterate that Rebecca, if you feel good, that is a good sign. I genuinely believe that if you don't feel uncomfortable, you feel good, then as long as you're feeling good, that's a sign that things are working well. That's what I think. Our body lets us know when things are not by sending us the feelings.

Melanie Avalon: I agree with that. I thought of one other thing. You can also try coffee enemas, if you like. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Oh, Lordy.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] This can be game changers for a lot of people. Their main thing is not for bowel movements. It's more for liver detox.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to put coffee in the mouth. [laughs] Send it down that way. It can then just do what it does on its way through. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: They're actually pretty easy to do once you start doing them.

Gin Stephens: All right. I'll believe that. Just like I'm going to grind my own wheat and make some beans. [laughs] Maybe I'll make cheese if I really want to go crazy. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Make the cheddar cheese.

Gin Stephens: No, I don't have time for that.

Melanie Avalon: If we ever meet in person, we can make cheddar cheese together.

Gin Stephens: Well, okay, that would be fun.

Melanie Avalon: That could be a fun time. [laughs] Okay, do you think we sufficiently answered Rebecca's question?

Gin Stephens: And then more.

Melanie Avalon: I think so. [laughs] Okay.

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All right. We have a question from Jill. The subject is, “Brand new to IF world.” And Jill says, “Good afternoon. I am brand new to the IF world, actually just beginning my second week. I began listening to your podcast on iHeartRadio and I am on Episode 14. I'm currently reading Fast. Feast. Repeat. and it is extremely helpful. I'm doing the one meal a day, 20:4 or 21:3. I have adjusted well despite not having my stevia and creamer-filled coffee. For the past several years, I have taken over the counter sleep aids and nightly. ZzzQuil.”

Gin Stephens: ZzzQuil. I think it's just ZzzQuil.

Melanie Avalon: “ZzzQuil or Unisom. While taking this medication at the end of my feeding window cause any unwanted delay in my fasting window?”

Gin Stephens: I just have to say something that's really exciting that I just noticed by looking at Jill's email address.

Melanie Avalon: She's in the government.

Gin Stephens: Well, she's from Greenwood, South Carolina, which is where my mother grew up, and my brother lives there now. It's like home. Anyway, like old family home. I never lived there, but I always visited. I was always there for holidays. So, hello, Jill. I feel like we're neighbors. Also, my parents, my dad is from Ninety Six, South Carolina, which is right down the road.

Melanie Avalon: Nice, small world.

Gin Stephens: Yep, I just got excited because I saw that she was from Greenwood. All right, so Jill, I'm so glad that you are finding Fast. Feast. Repeat. to be helpful. Now, I have two things I want to say. The first I'm going to say, taking something get right before bed. Let's just say random anything, is taking something at bedtime going to break your fast? Here's my universal advice for that. If you have an evening eating window, let's say-- I'll use myself as an example. I usually close my window by about 7:00 PM these days, usually. So, I'm not eating after 7:00 PM. And then, let's say I go to bed at 10:00 because it's summer, and it's still light at 9:00, and I can't get to bed when it's light outside, so I'm making myself stay awake till it's dark, so it's 10:00.

I take my magnesium at that time, even though my eating window is closed, and I don't even concern myself with what's in it or whether it breaks the fast. Why is that? It's because I am not deeply into the fasted state by that point, it's been like three hours since I closed my window. So, a little medication at that point is not-- and then I'm going to bed. Even if it was something that broke the fast, I'm not deeply into the fasted state yet anyway. I feel like it would be different taking something at hour 18 of the fast for example, would be more likely to disrupt your fast than taking something before you're really even in the fasted state. Keep that in mind.

Now, let's talk about taking ZzzQuil or Unison long term. I don't think that's recommended. I know that sleep is really important, but I don't think that you want to take those long term for sleep. I would try to find something else. Go back to magnesium that we were just talking about before. Magnesium helps a lot of people get a good night's sleep and it's essential nutrient. Some of those may have for example, Benadryl, whatever that ingredient is, I can't remember. Whatever's in Benadryl is often an ingredient in these sleep aids, like Tylenol PM or whatever. It's an antihistamine, that actually is linked to weight gain over time, taking a lot of that. I would absolutely not, if I could help it, rely on some of those over-the-counter sleep aids, and instead I would try a magnesium approach and also really work on getting your bedroom just ideal for sleep, making it dark, getting the pets out of there, things like that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think you really nailed it. I forgot that this question was in the lineup, but I agree about not taking the sleep aids every single night. Now, I was just thinking more about what has been the thing that has made me be able to sleep so well. It's definitely the magnesium. It's the Feals CBD. I really think that has just-- I don't want to say it changed me as a person, but taking it consistently, really, really I think modulated my cannabinoid system and got rid of a baseline level of underlying chronic stress that I had. The cool thing about CBD and they are not a sponsor on today's show but they do sponsor shows, is most people experience a reverse tolerance effect. What I mean by that is, you often need less the longer you take it, it's not something like caffeine where you need more and more. It's just because it's modulating your cannabinoid system.

I would maybe try that. Try Feals and our code for them since they're not our sponsor is, it's 50% off, which is crazy. So, that's feals.com/ifpodcast with the coupon code, IFPODCAST. The magnesium, Gin just touched on it but making sure your sleeping environment is very conducive to sleep, so the blackout curtains, oh, game changers. Blue light blocking glasses before bed. We love BLUBlox. The coupon code, IFPODCAST, will get you 15% off at BLUBlox. I use those every single night in my life. I love their Sleep Remedy Mask that also completely blocks out. It's amazing because you can completely open your eyes when you're wearing it, and not even really realize. It makes everything look really dark. It's amazing. That's at BLUBlox. And working on just your mental health and your stress, so gratitude journals, turning off social media before bed. There's a lot, and I'm telling you, insomnia is in my core, and this stuff really works when you really commit to it and keep it going. And the great thing, the fun bonus of all of that is then you can have, what do you say it? ZzzQuil?

Gin Stephens: It's like NyQuil.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I'm getting confused seeing the Z-Z-Z in a row. But, yes, it's the ingredient that's in Benadryl, which is diphenhydramine, I think that's how you say it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I didn't even try to say that one.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] The great thing is, because I went through a period where I was taking that every night, this was a long time ago. I still keep in my back pocket, it's in my counter.

Gin Stephens: Do you know why I don't take it?

Melanie Avalon: Why?

Gin Stephens: Because I'm one of those people that does the opposite.

Melanie Avalon: Right, makes you awake.

Gin Stephens: My ADHD brain, that's very linked to people with an ADHD brain. It does the opposite. It makes me wired.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's crazy to me. Especially if I haven't been taking it, it knocks me out. I love the relationship that I have with it right now, because I'm not using it every night. It's rare that I use it. But if ever there's a night where for some reason-- usually if I have to be up really, really early for something, and I'm like I'm just not going to-- the anxiety of having to get up early and like trying to fall asleep earlier is not going to happen, then I just pull out a Benadryl. I don't do the ZzzQuil, I do just Benadryl, and it will knock me out. It's really wonderful. That's why I think it's really fabulous to have modern medications, because when you're not using them chronically, they can be pretty amazing when you need them. Like with pain medication, same thing. If you've had something where you're in a massive amount of pain, and you need pain medication, there's definitely a time and place for that, and it's wonderful that we have access to that. It’s when their way into our lives chronically that they can become addictive and no longer offer all of the benefits to make up for the side effects of being on them chronically.

Gin Stephens: I get it. If you're having trouble sleeping, that you're just desperate to find something and then it's easy, they're over the counter, they work, and [unintelligible [01:02:03] that for me, [laughs] because my brain is crazy, but I get the attraction to them.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. 100%. I know she was asking about it for the fast which you answered. I think there's a bigger thing there that she possibly can benefit from.

Gin Stephens: Yes, I think so too.

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad she asked about it.

Gin Stephens: Me too.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. You can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com if you'd like to submit your own questions, or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode220. There'll be a full transcript in those show notes, so you can definitely check that out and we'll also put links to everything that we mentioned, all those links and discounts and all of that stuff. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I'm @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. And I think that's everything. Did you see my most recent Reel, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure. What was it about?

Melanie Avalon: It was my ideal dating list.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I did see that. Yep, I did.

Melanie Avalon: I was thinking about that. A lot of people have been messaging me about that.

Gin Stephens: Trying to find your man?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. [laughs] Good times. But, yes, I love Instagram. So, follow us on Instagram. Oh, and you can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it. Don't buy fake books on Amazon. That’s all I-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Oh, and if a listener has ever made cheddar cheese, will they please write in and tell me about it?

Gin Stephens: Awesome. Yes. All right. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 219 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer, is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare and makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body.

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And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list, and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. Again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 219 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm good. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. For listeners, we're struggling. Gin and I forgot how we--

Gin Stephens: I think either you didn't say or maybe my sound cut out. Because I swear I don't think I heard you say it. I was waiting by sitting here. The likelihood that it's my sound going out is highly likely because my internet is still wacky.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, we struggled recording our intro that we recorded 219 times. [laughs] Good times.

Gin Stephens: It's like when you're so good at driving a car that you forget how to drive the car when you're trying to think about it, it's like, “I don't know how to drive the car. How do you start the car? I don't know.”

Melanie Avalon: Like you're driving and then you randomly for a second overanalyze the lanes or the turn signal or something, and you're like, “Wait.”

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I will be driving in my car, and Chad will say, “How do you turn on the whatever?” and I'm like, “I had no idea. I just turn it on.”

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. We run so many programs and the part of our brain that just runs it on autopilot. When we think about it, it's a different part of our brain.

Gin Stephens: It's true. Just try to walk and think about every action your body's making. You just can't do it. Even walking across the room.

Melanie Avalon: Stressful.

Gin Stephens: It is. Anything new going on with you?

Melanie Avalon: Actually, yes. Well, more of just updates. I'm continuing to take care of my cucumbers. It's perfect timing, because I'm reading a book called Flowerevolution, it's about flowers, but it is blowing my mind about plants. You know how we were talking last time about the consciousness of plants?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Do you know they've done studies on plants where they put stress detectors on the plants, and then they do things and the plants know, the plants freak out?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I am fascinated by that type of research. Even playing music for plants. Have you heard the studies about what they do to water? Scream at the water and then pour it in the plants, and the plants are, like, “Oh my God, what's happening?” Just because you screamed at the water. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I have to read the original study. She said they did one study where the guy had a plant, it was his plant, and then he went to another state. They did a surprise birthday party for him, and at the moment that they screamed surprise, and he got really scared, the plant spiked.

Gin Stephens: Wow, that's fascinating. It all does sound really crazy until you think about the fact that we are all just energy. Even my chemist husband, who's just Mr. Science mind, he's like, “Yep, that's true. We are all energy,” at our molecular level, and we're mostly space and we're energy. The way our energy is all connected, like quantum physics, it's just way so, so much. There's so much that we're still understanding.

Melanie Avalon: Something that made it seem very clear and not as woo-woo to me, was she compared it to the internet and text messages. We send messages every day through energy, like with text messages.

Gin Stephens: The only reason it's woo-woo is because we don't understand it.

Melanie Avalon: That's what she said. She says that we don't understand the plant language, like we don't understand that energy system. We don't think it's there, we think it's not real.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's like when they used to think thunder was God is mad at you. [laughs] They didn't understand scientifically why we were having thunder. When we can't understand it, we think, “Well, that can't be true,” or that has to have a magical source or whatever. Yeah, it is fascinating. It's why you just can't discount things even though it might sound, like you said, woo-woo.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. Second update. I am prepping for Valter Longo for the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Remember when we interviewed him, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Yes. Now, what if I had said, “No, I don't remember that.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That would be--

Gin Stephens: Crazy? Yeah, no, I do remember.

Melanie Avalon: I'm rereading his book. Is it The Longevity Diet? Yes, The Longevity Diet. There's so many books with the word ‘longevity’ in them. It's interesting to me how much I forgot from that book. Just rereading it now, because I only read it a few years ago, but I feel like I'm reading it for the first time.

Gin Stephens: It was like four years ago, right? Or was it 2018? Was it 2018 that we had?

Melanie Avalon: Probably 2018.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that was three years ago.

Melanie Avalon: Do you want to play the guessing game for something from it?

Gin Stephens: Oh, Lordy. Yeah, go ahead.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, I just read this right before we got on the call. I was like, “Oh, this is the perfect guessing game question.” For listeners, Valter Longo is the-- I don't know if he's the director of, but he he's at the Gerontology Longevity Institute at USC, and he is a fasting researcher and he developed the fasting mimicking diet and his company is ProLon. So, he's all about fasting. Oh, and he's in everything. I feel like everything I watch now, I see him. He was in that Goop Lab show. I've been watching Zac Efron’s show on Netflix called something about the earth. It's a lot of biohacking health stuff, he was in that. I just keep seeing him everywhere.

In any case, what do you think, when they were studying fasting water fasts in mice? What was the four changes that they identified as the important, protective, antiaging, health-promoting factors of fasting that they tried to recreate with the fasting mimicking diet? Like they wanted to create a diet that would create these four factors? Isn't this a fun game?

Gin Stephens: Well, no, it's going to be hard. All right, number one, would be calorie restriction.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, wait, no.

Gin Stephens: I don’t understand the question.

Melanie Avalon: When they tested the blood, what four blood markers?

Gin Stephens: Okay, okay, okay. I'm going to say blood glucose went down.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. One. Oh, this is so fun.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Insulin went down.

Melanie Avalon: I thought that would have been one of them.

Gin Stephens: But did they not test it?

Melanie Avalon: He didn't list it as the four.

Gin Stephens: Okay, in their blood. Did ketones go up?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Two.

Gin Stephens: Okay. I don't know, do mice have cholesterol? Do they measure cholesterol?

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. It's not one of the ones.

Gin Stephens: Okay. All right. So, I got two of them. Let's see.

Melanie Avalon: I think you can get the third. I don't think you'll get the fourth.

Gin Stephens: Something they're measuring in the blood of mice. Okay, blood glucose down, ketones up. I don't know, cortisol?

Melanie Avalon: No. I can give you a hint. It relates to growth.

Gin Stephens: Oh, human growth hormone went up?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: Okay, well, then I don't know. You're just going to have to tell me.

Melanie Avalon: You're close, lower IGF-1. Then, the fourth one that I didn't think you would get, higher IGFBP-1.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I was not going to get that.

Melanie Avalon: Which is a growth factor inhibitor.

Gin Stephens: I still didn't get it. [laughs] Even though you said it, I couldn't tell you that, no.

Melanie Avalon: Basically, I just found that was really interesting. They found what the water fast that there was lower IGF-1, that's a growth factor promoter. Lower glucose, so lower blood sugar. Higher ketones, and then higher growth factor, IGFBP-1, and that's a growth factor inhibitor. When they created ProLon, or the fasting mimicking diet, they wanted to create a diet that would create those four factors. Pretty cool.

Gin Stephens: Very cool.

Melanie Avalon: Anything new with you?

Gin Stephens: No, not really. I'm in a fabulous, nothing new kind of a time. It feels good. I have been so stressed out the whole from the beginning of the year till when I turned my book in, and also the new Delay, Don't Deny Social Network. So, it has been like just bam, bam, bam. I don't even know where the year went so far, we're already in June. I've got a big family beach trip coming up and it just feels-- Of course, I've got a lot of editing coming up these different weeks when they're going to send me the copy edits and whatever. But right now, I'm in a nice little lull. I'm reading, I think I talked about this before. I bought a hummingbird feeder for my front yard yesterday. The lady said there probably aren't going to be any hummingbirds for a while, that it's still early or something, I don't know. They are in their little nests. Can you imagine how cute a little hummingbird nest is? Oh my gosh, I know. I would just die if I could see a hummingbird nest. That'd be so cute. Anyway, I was joking with some friends yesterday. I was like, “Does this mean I'm legit old and retired because I'm putting my hummingbird feeder in my yard [laughs] and I'm going to stare at it?”

Melanie Avalon: I spent like an hour before this pruning my cucumbers.

Gin Stephens: Okay, well, and that is not a euphemism, people. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Wait, what? A euphemism?

Gin Stephens: A euphemism. It's when you say one thing, but it means something else.

Melanie Avalon: For pruning my cucumbers?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, spicy?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. [laughs] Ah.

Gin Stephens: I don't even know what that would be. But it just sounded a little bit like one of those double meaning kinds of phrases.

Melanie Avalon: No, these are very real, cucumbers.

Gin Stephens: I do want to say the little baby birds that we had in the nest around Mother's Day, they're gone. They've moved out of the nest.

Melanie Avalon: Where did they go?

Gin Stephens: I guess they flew away. Where do birds go? [laughs] But we actually thought for a brief period of time that they were going to die because Ellie had a bird in the dining room, and we thought it was mama bird. It seemed injured, but we put it out, and Chad's like, “That bird is going to die. If that was mama bird, the babies are going to die.” Then, we were like really sad for a while. I don't know, that bird might not have been injured. If it was a mama bird, she came back and fed them. So, the babies didn't die. The last time Chad looked in there at the nest, they were big babies, they're getting so big. Anyway, the circle of life. This is what I'm doing. It's pretty much birds. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Birds and the bees, I'm contemplating-- I don't know, I wish I could get a pet bee to pollinate my flowers.

Gin Stephens: I think you need a whole ecosystem. That sounds like too much. What's next? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I was seriously contemplating this. I was like, “Could I have a pet bee?”

Gin Stephens: I don't think so. I don't think it's got everything it needs to thrive.

Melanie Avalon: Oh right, because then I have to feed the bee.

Gin Stephens: Well.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, the bee eats the flower?

Gin Stephens: No, it doesn't. It's the nectar and then it does something with it. It's getting the nectar out of there, then takes the nectar back to its hive.

Melanie Avalon: Okay.

Gin Stephens: I could be wrong. I don't think it's like eats the nectar. Eats the nectar, then spits it up in the hive, I'm not sure.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I do remember that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, like all coming back to me. It's like bee spit. Honey is bee spit. Right?

Melanie Avalon: Another fact I learned from the book about bees and flowers. They used to think bees were attracted to the flower’s color and scent.

Gin Stephens: Isn't it something with like ultraviolet light, like a runway?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's like the energy. It's not the flowers-- or it's not the color.

Gin Stephens: If you look at the flower differently, it's a different wavelength. It's not the visible light spectrum that we see. It's a different wavelength you could see. If you go to the airport and on the runway, like go here, arrows. It's kind of like that to the bee. It's like a landing strip, the way it looks to the bee. I think so. For some reason, that's in my head. It's all that elementary school knowledge. [laughs] Maybe I saw it on Magic School Bus or something.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. I asked my Facebook group for ideas about turning my podcast into a TV show, and one person said, it should be like the adult version of Magic School Bus. I got so excited. That would be so incredible. They were like, “And David Sinclair can be the narrator.” Oh, my goodness. Very cool.

Gin Stephens: I loved that TV show when I was a teacher, but see, you were a kid, I was a teacher. I could have been your fourth-grade teacher.

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Gin Stephens: It's true.

Melanie Avalon: Could you have? Yes.

Gin Stephens: Yes. I was teaching fourth grade in 1990.

Melanie Avalon: You could not have been my fourth-grade teacher. Oh, wait. Well, you were teaching it after then, too?

Gin Stephens: Yes. And after then. Yes. I could only not have been your teacher if you were in fourth grade prior to 1990.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I see what you're saying. Okay. Wow.

Gin Stephens: I know. That's how old I am. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That would have been so crazy.

Gin Stephens: I know.

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Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes. We have a question from Ryan and the subject is “IF, all or nothing.” Ryan says, “Thanks for the comprehensive and fun pod. I've been IFing for eight months and know it has influenced my eating for life. I'm a 35-year-old male who started IF for the health benefits and lifestyle compatibility. I'm finding myself fit as I was a decade ago with my exercise during these IF months oriented around cardio, and mid to low intensity bodyweight workouts. Recently, however, I've increased the intensity of my bodyweight workouts in a push for the summer body I always wanted, but never once had. Removing breakfast and lunch in lieu of a nighttime window has increased my work performance which is great, and I exercise after work in the fasted state before opening my window until bedtime. I've also finally learned to respect the need for adequate sleep, which prompts the first part of my issue.

My window, typically three to four hours, seems no longer large enough to accommodate the calorie intake I need without uncomfortably stuffing myself. I usually spend one or both weekend days eating normally and have started switching my Wednesdays back to non-IF as well. But my body tells me I'm still not getting enough calories in, which wasn't a problem until this recent exercise change. One obvious solution would be to give up my insistence that all workouts occur in the fasted state and to eat lunch or a smaller meal in the early afternoon.

Enter the second part of my issue. I've learned a lunch will throw me for a mental loop for the rest of the workday. Even if it's a low-carb salad with lean protein and healthy fats, for example, avocados, nuts, and seeds, I feel mentally foggy and have notable loss of cognitive function and alertness. I knew this was a problem when my boss asked me on multiple occasions, if I was okay, which itself is a sign that I was not. And this was an issue before the recent increase in exercise intensity, so I know ratcheting back the exercise won't solve it.

Have you experienced this or counseled others who've dealt with it? I can't be trapped by IF, such that deviating from my usual eating schedule puts me somewhat out of commission on work matters. Successful days are either entirely non-IF or fully IF with my usually intense, but short nighttime window. I'd really appreciate your thoughts. Many thanks, Ryan.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, Gin. I have to tell you something, and I can tell listeners as well. I'm so upset. For listeners, I just went to turn off the pumps on the hydroponic plant things and I realized I hadn't turned the pump on one of them. I hadn't turned the pump back on from my last podcast interview. So, the pump hasn't been running for a few days.

Gin Stephens: It'll be okay. Plants are hardy. Think about in the real world, they have to be able to withstand droughts, they have to be able to withstand monsoons, they are resilient. It will be okay.

Melanie Avalon: I was sitting there today. I was staring at it, and I was like, “I just feel like it's not getting the nutrients it needs.” That's probably why.

Gin Stephens: It is fine. It will be okay.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you for talking me off the ledge.

Gin Stephens: Just think about how in nature, plants can do all sorts of crazy things. They're hardy.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so it's okay. Okay. I'm glad that that happened.

Gin Stephens: Your plant was fasting.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. [laughs] But they're in a growth mode right now, remind me at the end to turn the pump back on. Ryan, this is a really great question, and I thought about it a lot, and I have so many thoughts. Okay, to start, hope I can articulate all of this well, the first thing I have is a question. He talks about how he upped his workout to get the summer body that he always wanted, but never had. He doesn't tell us what his weight or what his stats were before. So, it's important to know-- I'm guessing this is the final push, that stubborn last part, especially since it's for the summer body. The reason I think that's important is, I'm wondering, when he says that he feels he's not getting the amount of fuel-- Does he say fuel or calorie intake?

Gin Stephens: He says calorie intake. Remember, we talked about this last time. The fuel comes from what you're taking in, but also from your body.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so his body says that he's not getting enough calories in. I'm curious what he's experiencing, feeling like he's not getting enough calories. Is it hunger? Is that lack of energy? Does he feel he's not building adequate muscle? What is it? The reason I'm emphasizing that is that if this is the final push, I feel it's a situation where it might be normal to experience hunger. Does that make sense? If it's the final push to do something that's a little bit resistant, I don't know if doing so can be done without feeling any sort of--

Gin Stephens: A little hungry.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I would evaluate first, as far as maybe, are you getting enough calories in? Maybe you are for the goal that you're achieving? I don't know, because I don't know exactly where he's at. But that's my first part. I also want to do a disclaimer and a clarification, obviously, we're not doctors. But two, I do think when it comes to this, as far as the body having hormonal issues and things like that, that it's less common in men. Men can more healthfully do what Ryan is doing than women without having to worry quite as much about creating a lot of hormonal damage. And the reason I say that is if it is a natural state of hunger that he actually needs to be in to get the “body” he wants, it might all be okay.

All of that said, the continuation of my thoughts. First of all, I completely relate with when you're doing fasting, and then it's hard to go back to daytime eating and experiencing the brain fog or the loss of cognitive function like he says, and I'm really jealous. I feel some people do fasting, like a one meal a day type thing, and then they are able to eat on days that they want and they don't experience that, and I'm really jealous, but that's not me. I completely understand and identify with that. My suggestion would be, what do you want to preserve with everything? It looks like you really want to preserve the fasted state in the workday, it looks like that's the thing that's really important to keep.

Gin Stephens: The mental clarity. I would keep that obviously-- and then sure, we are going to have to adjust other factors if you do decide that you really do need more calories. Well, I like what he's doing where he said he was doing one or two days of the weekend not fasting, so just do both days of the weekend not fasting is like a thing. Then, he talks about potentially fueling the workout, or not doing the workout in the fasted state. Again, if you decide that you can still get the body composition changes that you want, while not working out in the fasted state some days, then I think that's completely fine. This might sound crazy, but this might be a thing where you might want to do a bulletproof decaf coffee and don't really qualify it either way about it being part of the fast. You might be able to do something with the workouts to get in more calories throughout the day and fuel the workouts without breaking the cognitive state and getting the lethargy. This might actually be a situation where something like MCT oil before some of the workouts might actually work for you.

I'm also wondering, it sounds like you cram everything into your window, your dinner window. I'm guessing there's not really much room to lengthen that at all. Otherwise, I'm assuming you would have done that. But if there is a way you could do that, even if it's just changing around how you're prepping your dinner, maybe there's a way that you can eat your dinner sooner after your workout and have a longer window. Also, if you wanted to add just calories to your window and make them more easily absorbable without feeling like you're completely stuffing yourself, that actually might be something where I brought up the MCT oil, you might be able to add that to your food, to your dinner, and that actually might, A, get you even faster to your goals because I personally experienced and there's this girl on Instagram who's been talking about it a lot. She has a big following, but they're experimenting with adding MCT oil to the meals and actually losing more weight. So, that might be a way to actually add in a lot of calories, but also move you closer to your goal.

The very last thing is, it's a little bit ironic because I'm saying focus on protein and nutrient density. The reason I think it's ironic is because if you're not doing this already, which I feel he probably is, based on what he said, the type of things that he eats. True, if you eat more protein, it's actually going to make it harder to eat more, and I know he's thinking that it needs to eat more, but it's the nutrients, especially with the bodybuilding state and the fat loss state that you want to be eating and need to be eating. So, it might be possible that you don't actually need to eat more calories, but you just need to focus on the protein and the nutrients. So, playing around with what you're eating, it might not be a calorie thing, it might be a macronutrient-nutrient thing. Those are my thoughts. I thought about it a lot.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's all just a matter of tweak it till it's easy, Ryan, and finding what feels good to you. You'll really only know it when you feel it and you find it. It sounds like you were feeling great before you increased the intensity of your workouts. That made you feel hungrier, like you weren't getting enough to eat. And then, having the longer window, including lunch, takes away that mental clarity that you were enjoying so much. That totally makes sense, but think about what we always were told by our grandparents, you exercise, you're working up a good appetite. Your body is telling you, you need more fuel, if that's indeed what your body is telling you. It sounds logical to me. Figuring out a way-- and this is where you've just got to tweak it. Like I said, figure out a way to-- I would not suggest having the lunch because clearly that's not feeling right, that would not be the tweak I would make, but playing around with maybe having something in the late afternoon, a little something, and then having your workout.

You hinted earlier that you would consider maybe not working out in the fasted state, so to try that. Just see how that goes. You said, the only way you're having success is to be either all or nothing, non-IF or fully IF. Then, you said you have an intense but short nighttime window. I also want you to consider that as you get to your goal, you're probably going to need more fuel, just in light of the fact that you're not going to be burning as much body fat. Like I found when I got to my goal size, I did need a little more food than I was to lose weight. You need to eat more in maintenance than you did to lose the weight, that's just how our bodies are hungrier because we're maintaining and we're not getting as much fuel from our short fat, if that makes sense. I think I just talked in circles. But hopefully, I made sense with it. Depending on how much fat you're still burning, and how much working out you're doing, think about lengthening that window, but not so long as to impact your workday and make you sluggish. You've got to figure out how you can do that. I wonder if you could work out early before work, then you'd really be ready to go for work and then have an afternoon snack before the end of work.

Melanie Avalon: I thought about that, but then I thought he probably would just be hungry and would have the cognitive issues of eating.

Gin Stephens: Well, it depends. I don't know, working out in the fasted state, it might just really pop up his alertness, make him feel better and more alert, because he's deep in the fat burning state and then have a longer window on the back end.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I guess it would depend if it makes him super hungry right after.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. It would depend on that. I find that when I'm really, really active in the fast, that I'm not as hungry for a while after working out-- during the fasted workout. It all changes up when just in-- maybe the next day, I might be hungrier though. I really do believe that if your body is sending you, “I'm hungry” signals, there's a reason.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, the reason might be that it's this final push and that's why it might be something that you have to just accept. It's hard to know where he's at and what he's trying to do. Like I said, I'm much more comfortable talking about this when it's a man than a female. Not because it's a gender bias, because it's just literally our bodies are different.

One other thing I thought of, so I'm actually interviewing tomorrow, John Jaquish. I don't know how you say his last name. I think I might have mentioned it. Did I mention him to you, Gin? He makes the X3 Resistant Band system.

Gin Stephens: Yes, you mentioned him to me.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited because I learned so much in that book. It was a situation where-- because I don't actively seek out exercise science books or information, I probably should. So, it's really nice when it just lands in my lap, they reached out to me to bring him on the show. He's been on Dave Asprey and a lot of other shows and other podcasters that I listen to have been mentioning his bands. His book goes into the exercise science of muscle building, I learned so much. It's so interesting when something that you're steeped in normally-- like tomorrow when we record, I just still don't feel like I have the knowledge that I would like to engage in an intellectual dialogue about it, but that's fine, I'm going to learn.

The point of all this was he talks about usability of proteins. I was trying to look up charts online, because I think people often say that whey protein is super usable, and that's why they use it. I feel he said in the book that it wasn't, which is confusing, but something that also might help Ryan is experimenting with the type of protein that he's eating. For example, like egg whites are typically known to have the highest bioavailability and then fish. Fish is more easily digestible sometimes than other meats, so you might be able to eat more of it, and also get more protein that you need. Then, meat is farther down the line. I was trying to figure out exactly where chicken lies, but that might be something to look up. You could google protein bioavailability.

Gin Stephens: Can I tell you something cool that I just thought of while you were talking? We have new neighbors across the street, and they have gutted the house across the street from the 60s, and they are totally rebuilding it. They're there are a lot, and now that I'm sitting in the front yard, since we're redoing our backyard, I have a lot of time to talk to them, because they are in the front and you're waiting for the workers that are working on the house if they can lock up. Well, the husband of the couple, he is a retired exercise physiology researcher. Fascinating stuff. He was telling me all these stories about-- he worked with top level tennis players and the impact of heat and sweat. He wouldn't tell me what tennis player it was, but it’s somebody we would know. The amount of sweat output he was having, and so he helped him with electrolyte supplementation based on that. He and I had a great discussion about electrolyte supplementation, and who needed it and who didn't. It was really fascinating. This is just in the wild with my neighbor.

Melanie Avalon: No, that's amazing. Exercise science is so fascinating.

Gin Stephens: It really is. Basically, a lot of us don't need it, [laughs] the electrolyte supplementation. But some people do, obviously this high-level tennis player who was working out like crazy and sweating like buckets, he had the highest sweat output, like I said, this exercise researcher had ever seen, is going to need supplementation.

Melanie Avalon: I think a lot of people who are not eating the standard American diet needs electrolytes more, because our processed food is so high in sodium and when people switch to a whole foods diet, they lose a lot of electrolytes.

Gin Stephens: Well, he and I didn't get into that. But we also talked about children and how much heat they can take, which was interesting to me as an elementary teacher. He actually was instrumental in the writing the American Academy of Pediatrics advice for what kids can do in the heat before they need to hydrate and stuff like that. Basically, healthy kids are very resilient. There's no one size fits all, that was the best thing that I took away from the whole conversation, which is everything we say all the time. There is no one size fits all recommendation for anything. He, as a science researcher, found that in everything he was doing as well. He talked about how difficult it was, because the American Academy of Pediatrics wanted a one size fits all recommendation. He's like, “If you're going to do that, I refuse to be a part of it. I'm not doing that.”

Melanie Avalon: One of the things that John says all throughout the book is how he thinks exercise science is-- it has a lot of tenets in it that it sort of wanted to cling to and that it was hard to evolve appropriately.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's all science. I think that's true because when you come up believing something and you're trained in it, just like the cholesterol paradigm, for example. With doctors, that's just one example. When you're trained in something and it's what you believe, it's hard to shift as we learn new things. That's true for all of us.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, one of the stories that Valter Longo tells in his book is, how I guess, in 1994, because there's all these debating theories about aging and longevity and what causes aging. I guess, he formed the idea that we have programs for aging. Cells are programmed to die at a certain time, and maybe you can manipulate those programs based on diet and fasting and things like that. He says a story about how I guess he had a debate in 1994 about the cause of aging, and he put forth his thesis. He said at the end, the audience voted, and the audience was all scientists and lots of people like that, and they voted who they thought was correct, and he lost. With the follow-up polls, he had actually convinced over half of the people of his idea, but people don't like-- I guess in science, it's hard to not accept the current idea, even if they think that something else makes more sense.

Gin Stephens: It's true. Confirmation bias is real, and the inability to change your paradigm is hard. It's hard for people to do when you've believed something for so long. But we all have that in us, and we have to fight against it.

Melanie Avalon: Also, the power of groupthink, so not wanting to go against all the studies they do, where they have people-- like people enter rooms, and they don't know that it's a setup, and everybody will do something weird, but because everybody else is doing it, they'll start doing it, or they won't. This happened to me in real life the other day, and I saw it happening. I was like, “I know this is what this is,” but I still did it. Outside of my apartment, there's the street and there's parallel parking on both sides. You know how parking in streets around communities or neighborhoods can be casual. People might park the wrong way with the parallel parking because it's not the outside world. The road right outside of my apartment, there's parallel parking, and everybody on one side was parked the wrong way. They were all parked opposite the flow of traffic with the parallel parking. There was one open space, and there's like six spots. I was like, “Do I park the way I know I'm supposed to park? Or do I park the wrong way like every other single car?” So, I parked the wrong way. I was like, “This is what this is.”

Gin Stephens: That'd be hard for me as a rule follower.

Melanie Avalon: Would you park the right way?

Gin Stephens: It might depend on what was convenient. Was it more convenient for you to park the “right” way? Or, was it more convenient for you to park like everybody else, based on the way your car was pointed?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, at the time?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: That's a good question. I don't remember. I definitely sat there. I was like, “Hmm.”

Gin Stephens: That would be a factor. Yeah, that actually might have been a factor now that I think about it but I definitely had the debate. I was like, “This is what this is. This is me wanting to go with the group.”

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All right, shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: We have two questions sort of related. The first one is from Michelle. The subject is “Not working/PCOS.” Michelle says, “Hey, ladies, love your podcast, I have been intermittent fasting for about a month now. I'm doing a 20:4, sometimes 19:5 window, eating from 3:00 to 7:00 PM, and I feel really good while fasting. However, I am gaining weight, not losing. I do treat myself to ice cream somewhat frequently. Other than that, I eat mostly meat, veggies, fruits, and rice. I also exercise for 30 minutes about three to four times a week, usually jogging or weightlifting. I have PCOS, which I know can make weight loss harder, but I can't help but feel discouraged. I'm not planning to stop doing IF because I really like it. But any advice on what I should change or do differently? How long does it take to start losing?

Lastly, my husband and I are trying to start a family. With PCOS, it's a bit harder but we are working with a great OB-GYN and are hopeful. I listened to your IF stories podcast with the OB-GYN, and I've heard you guys mentioned great things about IF for people with PCOS. My mom keeps sending me articles that say not to do IF when trying to become pregnant because it messes with your cycle. Should I be worried about that? Thanks for all you do.”

Then, a continuation of that after we answer that, we can also address Katie's question about pregnancy. And she says, “Hi, ladies. Love your podcast. I'm currently testing out intermittent fasting. After many hours of research, I see that IF may not be suitable for those trying to get pregnant, or those who are pregnant. Could you shed some light on this? I am trying to conceive, but don't want to do anything to harm myself or the baby. Thank you.”

Gin Stephens: Of course, the number one best advice is have these conversations with your OB-GYN and don't take what we're saying as advice of what you should do. Even the doctor, I'm getting ready to mention Dr. Cecily Ganheart, she says the same thing. I am not your doctor, she'll say-- I've seen on Instagram say it, “Even though I am a doctor, I'm not your doctor, I'm not giving you medical advice.” That would be her talking, not me, because I'm not a doctor. I'm definitely not giving you medical advice. Even a doctor will not give you medical advice at random. So, just keep that in mind.

I want to first go to what Katie said do not do intermittent fasting while you're pregnant. 100%. For everybody who has not yet listened to the episode that Michelle was talking about, it's Episode 34 of Intermittent Fasting Stories, Dr. Cecily Ganheart. If you go to just any Google, whatever, and type in Intermittent Fasting Stories, Cecily Ganheart, G-A-N-H-E-A-R-T, or probably you could type in Intermittent Fasting Stories Episode 34, it'll take you to her episode, and she's an OB-GYN, who is an intermittent faster herself, but she also works with a lot of patients who have PCOS and fertility issues. Her strategy that she uses with those patients is intermittent fasting coupled with dietary changes. So, not to be flippant, I would listen to her before I would listen to your mom. Sorry, mom. I think Dr. Ganheart knows based on what's working with patients. You could find all sorts of articles that say literally anything, including the earth is flat. So, I would not go based on articles anyone is sending you from the internet, unless they're written by-- if there’s any medical journals, that would be different.

With PCOS, Michelle, let's address that, first of all. PCOS is linked to high insulin levels. The reason intermittent fasting works so well is because it lowers your insulin levels naturally, because you're fasting clean, and insulin goes down during the fast. But that is also why Dr. Ganheart with her PCOS patients works on what they're eating as well because when you describe what you're eating, mostly meat, veggies, fruits, and rice, she tends to employ a low-carb approach with her PCOS patients because that's also great at lowering insulin and that’s what you targeted, you're trying to do. She finds with her patients that when you lower insulin levels, fertility increases, and that is what you're hoping to find. You're hoping for increased fertility, so lowering insulin should be what you're focused on. On the flip side, there's the whole mastering diabetes mindset of actually eating low fat, high carb, also to lower your insulin levels. You just really have to decide. I think both are good at it, but you can't be there in the middle. Melanie and I've talked about that many times. In the middle is where it's murkier. If your goal is lowering insulin levels, you need to really commit to one or the other, if it's for this purpose of fertility with PCOS.

Back to Katie's question as well, who didn't say anything about being PCOS, should she do intermittent fasting while she's trying to get pregnant? Well, that depends. As long as you're not using intermittent fasting in an overly restrictive way, it's likely to not be a problem. Just like Melanie talked about a few minutes ago, when we were reading Ryan's question, women's hormones are more delicate in a state of over-restriction. You don't want to over-restrict while you're trying to get pregnant. But intermittent fasting is not necessarily overly restrictive. That's the whole-- I mean, I also wouldn't do the hCG diet, when I'm trying to get pregnant. I wouldn't do a very low-calorie diet when I was trying to get pregnant. You need to nourish your body well, but you can do that in the intermittent fasting paradigm, but you just have to be mindful of how you're nourishing your body.

Back to Michelle who said that she's been doing intermittent fasting for about a month and not losing weight and actually gaining weight, that's not abnormal. I talk about that in Fast. Feast. Repeat., that's why I want you to take that whole first month, as just the 28-Day FAST Start, you're nailing the clean fast, you're not even looking at the scale. Then after that you can start-- you're tweaking it for weight loss, if that's your goal. The foods are going to be even more important, if you're trying to think about getting pregnant. If your goal is fertility right now, maybe weight loss should not be your goal. Put that on the back burner and focus on nourishing your body and an eating window that feels good to you, getting insulin down. I think that's your best bet. Also, ready to quit the intermittent fasting as soon as you find out that you're pregnant. Back when I had the Facebook groups, we heard all the time from people who had trouble with fertility, started intermittent fasting, bam, then they were pregnant. Did I get to everything that she said?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Well, I guess just to clarify, when you actually are pregnant--

Gin Stephens: Stop.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. That was a really fabulous answer.

Gin Stephens: Dr. Ganheart says that. She loves intermittent fasting, but she does not want you to do it when you are pregnant. Do it as part of healing the PCOS, then take a break until the baby is weaned, not just through the pregnancy, but all the way through the breastfeeding time too. Do you know why my number one reason for not recommending breastfeeding and intermittent fasting, Melanie, is not just about your milk flow and your supply, like some people think.

Melanie Avalon: Is it because toxins?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. We're in a different world now. Actually, I was having this conversation we were having with one of the moderators in the Delay, Don't Deny moderators, I'm not there anymore. I mean, it was a really good conversation. It wasn't like a bad conversation, or anybody was in trouble, or we were mad. No. It was just we were having a conversation behind the scenes about breastfeeding. One of the moderators said, “I can't think that it would actually be really a problem because women always were breastfeeding their babies in times of famine, and then they were able to.” I'm like, “Well, a lot of things are different now. First of all, not just because your baby is going to be fine. We want your baby to be optimal, not just fine.” That's one thing, but just having a milk supply is not the only thing because now we live in such a toxic world. This was reiterated when I was researching for Clean(ish). How many toxins are actually passed through breast milk to the babies? It's because we're just like in this whole chemical soup now. Even if you're trying really hard not to be, you are you, you can't help it. So, you've got toxins stored in your fat, even if you live a pretty clean life.

When you're breastfeeding, if you're losing fat, then you're going to be releasing those toxins from your fat stores. So, it's almost like you really don't want to be losing weight at all while you're pregnant or breastfeeding, because of the toxins. This is different. This is not like thousand years ago, when people were still able to grow a healthy baby even with all the crazy famines and whatever they were going through. We've got a different environment than they had.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to bring that up. Also, one of the biggest detox moments that a woman experiences is actually when she's pregnant, because the toxins actually go through the placenta, into the baby. That's why it's so, so important that those are the toxins are coming from processed food, our environment, and then that's why we always talk about our skincare and makeup because that is one of our largest sources of exposure. If you're using conventional skincare and makeup, you are literally putting on probably compounds straight into your body. These are endocrine disruptors, and there's been thousands of compounds that Europe has banned, they actually regulate it there. The US has banned around a dozen. You can pull it up on their website on the FDA. They list like 12 things.

Gin Stephens: It's true. When I was researching for Clean(ish), it really just made it so much more important than it ever had before. The understanding of why this is so important. I have a whole chart in Clean(ish) about all the things they found in the cord blood of the baby’s and in the breast milk. It's shocking. I don't want to scare people into being afraid to live because we have to live, but there's a lot going on.

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's why I love Beautycounter.

Gin Stephens: Me too.

Melanie Avalon: By the way, for women, because Beautycounter makes skincare that you need, they make sunscreen, they make shampoo and conditioner, which I love. They make makeup, their makeup’s amazing. Tina Fey actually wore it at the Golden Globes this past year. But they also make-- I don't think most people realize this, they have a line for kids. They have like a baby wash and diaper balm and all of that stuff.

Gin Stephens: And for men, they have a men’s line.

Melanie Avalon: By the time this comes out, this will have aired, but for Father's Day, my dad is getting a lot of Beautycounter. He's getting Beautycounter and Dry Farm Wines. I emailed Dry Farm Wines and asked if they could make me a-- because normally those wines are on the lighter side, like body wise, but he likes heavy cabs[?]. I asked if they can make me a box of like the heaviest cabs that they have. Fun fact, if you like Dry Farm Wines, you can email them and they will make you a special box for whatever you want. So, I did that for him. Then I did it for a friend who specifically likes wines from the Loire Valley. I was like, “Can you make me a box of wines from the Loire Valley?” So, fun times. Links, if you want any of that, a bottle for a penny of Dry Farm Wines, is at dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, and then you can shop with us at Beautycounter at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

Gin Stephens: Awesome. Did you have anything you wanted to add?

Melanie Avalon: Her mom was talking about IF messing with your cycles. Gin talks about this. Yes, if IF is too restrictive, then it can create hormonal problems. The emphasis, and it's a slight change in words, is that her mom is cautioning her not to do IF because it messes with your cycle. The way to approach it would be, isn't messing with your cycle. If your cycles not changing, I don't think IF is sneakily changing your cycle behind the scenes, but it still appears normal, like you will know. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Also, on the flip side of that, people often have cycle changes as their bodies are adjusting to IF and then things regulate. Just because you have a couple of months that are wonky, doesn't mean, “Uh-oh, I better quit.”

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: It doesn't happen-- it's not that fast. If it does cause hormonal problems that's going to happen later, as you're going. If things start getting worse and worse and worse and worse, bad sign. But if things are weird for a while, then they improve, that's normal.

Melanie Avalon: Then, the last thing I wanted to touch on was, I think a lot of the fear surrounding fasting and fertility-- Well, Gin talked about this already that people equate fasting with over-restriction, which it can be. It can easily be, but it's not a synonym for it. The other thing though, and I've talked about this on prior episodes as well, but the majority of studies in fertility for females that are used to create this idea of it being an issue are in rodents. I just can't say this enough. So, rodents are reproducing on a much faster timeline. They have a shorter lifespan, they've a much shorter lifespan. I think it's like two years max. They're reproducing much more frequently, so they're much more sensitive to factors that would throw that off.

Gin Stephens: Stressors.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they do “time-restricted eating” in a rat, where they're fasting for a day. That's days and days, if not weeks in a human a fasting. Those two factors together, the fact that the fasting studies in rats are the equivalent of very long, extended fasts, and they're more sensitive to fertility issues with fasting anyways, if you see a rodent study that says fasting creates hormonal problems and fertility, I don't think you can make those connections to humans at all. I actually just finished reading an entire book about female fertility and the female cycle and all of that. It was very, very informative. I learned so much. I didn't know about the different phases of the cycle, like the follicular and the luteal, and ovulatory. I didn't know how hormones changed, and I learned so much. I'm probably going to do an episode with that author about that book. But the author does talk about fasting and its effects on fertility and makes the case that fasting is very detrimental for fertility. If there were an author to make this case-- if there were studies that really showed this, I think the author would have found those studies and put them in, but there really weren't any studies listed that to me, seem to make that case.

There was a rodent study, there were some studies that showed hormonal changes, but overall, it was more nuanced and complex than fasting is bad for your hormones or something like that. The reason I say that is I think a lot of people have this idea that fasting is a negative thing for fertility, but when you actually sit down and look at the literature, I don't see it anywhere. I'm looking for it. I see in the rodent studies, but I don't think they're applicable, and then on the flip side, I think we have so much-- just like Gin was talking about with-- what was the doctor?

Gin Stephens: Dr. Cecily Ganheart. She actively uses it as a strategy to help her patients that are having trouble with fertility.

Melanie Avalon: Right, exactly. I think the issue is just that fasting, and I said it already, but it can-- Oh, especially for a lot of women very easily become too restrictive, but it doesn't have to, and it can actually be really incredible and really healing and really supportive of fertility. So, it just depends on how you are doing the fasting.

Gin Stephens: And any diet could be a problem for women with fertility if they're overdoing the restriction.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Maybe we can do it next week. We actually had another question that's sort of related to this. But in any case, yeah, this has been absolutely wonderful. If you would like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. Just fun fact, those are the ways to submit questions. People keep DMing me on Instagram, trying to submit questions and I'm like, “If you want it on the show, it's got to go through the email.” Speaking of, you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. The show notes for today's episode, which will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode219. Lastly, you can get all of the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. All right, well, anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye. Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 217 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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One more thing before you jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. Ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for led, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years and your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body.

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Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode 217 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am great. I'm in this phase of in between when I sent off my book with the edits that my editor wanted me to make, and now it's in copy editing. So, I have a couple of weeks of downtime and [sighs] [laughs] copy editing is scary.

Melanie Avalon: So, then it'll come back and then--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I’ve got all the dates, I can't remember them. Actually, here I have the printout of them beside me. I had them somewhere, but here they are. The copy editor, I'll get it back June 28 from the copy editor. Then, I have a week to get it all back to them. Then, I get another set of it a month later after they've done something else with it. then I have another week or so, maybe two weeks this time to give more feedback. This is the thing though that's so scary. Sometimes, things get changed up. Like I found out with Fast. Feast. Repeat., something got changed in the process that was right on one version, and then some paragraph got in there in the wrong place. So, you have to read it so carefully and make sure things didn't get moved around. There's a lot of hands on it. Let me just put it that way.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I remember when that happened with my book a few times.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I'm just going to cross my fingers that I'm reading it for-- I don't know when I'm reading it for Audible, but I hope that I'm reading it for Audible before it's in line for the printer, because that's what happened last time. I was reading it for Audible, and I found the weird things. And they're like, “Too late. We're already in line at the printer.” I'm like, “What?”

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Then, you can't apparently change something, get out of line. Seems like you should be able to do that, you should be able to change your file, but you can't. It's not how it works.

Melanie Avalon: Well, fingers crossed, it all manifests.

Gin Stephens: It's true. It's a lot more complicated than self-publishing, but so much worth it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I went in Barnes & Noble this week. Every now and then, I just go in and I like to look at my book on the shelf. It was so surreal because since my last name is Avalon, A, I'm right by all the authors, so like Dave Asprey, I'm right by Dave. I took a picture and I put it on my Instagram, but I took a picture of just my book and the immediate surrounding books, and I knew so many people right next to me, and it's weird to think that that's just the As and Bs and Cs, authors. It was like, Dave Asprey, James Clement, Jonathan Bailor, Dr. Alan Christianson, I was like, “So many people.” It's exciting. I didn't sign it though. Do you sign it if you ever go in?

Gin Stephens: Well, I've done it a couple times. Yeah, I did. I did it one time in Augusta, and once at Myrtle Beach. The one at Myrtle Beach was funny. It was before I stopped doing as much drinking as I'm doing, not that I was like some crazy drinker, but we had been to brunch. I was there with my friends from college. We had been to brunch for a long time and had multiple drinks. They were like, “Let's go see if my book is there.” I was like, “I'm the author. Can I sign it?” They're probably like, “That girl, she's crazy,” [laughs] because I was in the happy phase of having had a few drinks. Let me just put it that way. I wasn't like sloppy wasted, no. [laughs] But that's not how I roll, you know what I'm saying.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder how long Barnes & Noble is open. If they're open late, I should do that sometime, like have a glass of wine and then--

Gin Stephens: Maybe don't go after a long, long boozy brunch. I'm sure they probably were like-- we were[?] lots of fun. Let's just call it that, but that might be like the last time I had that much to drink, because right after that, I was like it's really just not working for me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I can't day drink.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, well, we did go have a nap after that. [laughs] But no day drinking is definitely not for me. Now, just one drink, two drinks max, and I'm just like, “All right, that's enough. It feels so much better.”

Melanie Avalon: I don't ever really drink that much. I drink my Dry Farm Wines. Actually, I'm continuing to read Dr. Breus’s book, The Power of When. He talks about the best time for each chronotype to drink their drink.

Gin Stephens: Well, now I really wonder what the best time for me to drink.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, because do we think you're a lion?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think I'm a lion.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, the lion, I can tell you really quick.

Gin Stephens: Is the answer never? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I think it's early in the day. Let me check. You would have dinner and one drink at 6 o’clockish. The lion’s metabolism best tolerates alcohol at 4 o’clock. He says, “In good conscience, I can't advise anyone to start happy hour at 4 o’clock, but that is when lion’s metabolism best tolerates alcohol. If you start drinking at dinnertime, you can handle one or two glasses without feeling flattened, but do not drink after 7:30 PM, or your body won't be able to metabolize the alcohol in your system before bed.”

Gin Stephens: Oh, my gosh, that is 100% true. He's right. Yes. When I have one glass of wine with an earlier kind of dinner, it's when I keep drinking it or have a second glass after dinner and nurse it for a while until maybe 8 or 9, that's when it starts to interfere with my sleep. He's right. That's hilarious.

Melanie Avalon: For me, I'm a dolphin. Okay, for the dolphin, if you meet a friend for a drink or have a glass of wine between 8:30 to 10:30, make sure you have your last swallow by 9 PM. Significantly later for the dolphin that I can have my wine. I usually have my last wine usually by 10.

Gin Stephens: I feel like if I had a glass of wine at 4, then I'd be asleep by 8. [laughs] That's not going to work.

Melanie Avalon: Is this what you experienced? He talks about how the lion, it's like once they hit their, like sleep time, the brain just shuts off. It's just bedtime.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's really, really hard to stay awake.

Melanie Avalon: I always saw my dad experienced that. I just don't understand that. I just can't comprehend that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm like, “I've got to go to bed right now.”

Melanie Avalon: That's what makes it sound like.

Gin Stephens: Even in college, I would be the one who be like, “I'm out.” [laughs] Not all the time, but sometimes.

Melanie Avalon: He talks about for each chronotype when they leave the party. He talks about how the lions are the first leave the party.

Gin Stephens: Uh-huh, I'm definitely a lion.

Melanie Avalon: The wolves are the last to leave. Yeah, so next week, I'm just doing a phone call just to talk to him, and then going to bring him on the show. So very exciting.

Gin Stephens: Very cool.

Melanie Avalon: Anyways, shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. To start things off, we have a follow-up email about a topic we've been discussing on the show, which was the role of fasting and gallstones. This comes from Mario. Mario says, “Gin and Melanie. It seems you have just answered a question on the gallbladder on a recent podcast, but you said you were only able to find limited evidence about this in journals. I'm hoping to shed a bit of light on this. I work in healthcare, and I have some anecdotal evidence with this but not much in terms of medical journals. Like Gin says, you'd hear more about it if it was a problem. My anecdotal evidence is not for people who practice fasting as a lifestyle, but those who fast for religious purposes. During Lent and Ramadan, more people come in for gallbladder complaints. The theory behind this is that the gallbladder is a wallet for unused bile in the body. When you eat a fatty meal, the liver secretes bile, but while it is busy making more, your body pulls out readymade bile that was stored in your gallbladder. Stones in general precipitate out of solution when there is increased concentrations, like crystallizing salts when you boil off the water, but it does not redissolve when the concentration goes down. Gallstones can have different types depending on the components, such as calcium stones from oxalates, and this can depend on your diet. If the gallbladder is constantly emptying out, there's less chance for the stones to form. If there are stones, they're usually small and will sink to the bottom of the gallbladder. Therefore, fasting allows for biliary stasis, which then leads to more time for stone formation. Unfortunately, stone formation is a lengthy process. Journal studies generally do not do studies that will give results in a few years, because of the funding issues to do long studies and the rate of patients getting lost to follow up. Also, when your study has no marketing potential, so no drug to sell or process to market, there is no reason to do studies for it.”

I have quick question, Gin, because I was thinking about this a lot, because I do think about that how the intention of studies is typically to sell drugs, but there are a lot of studies on fasting. There's not really drugs related to fasting. Have you thought about this before?

Gin Stephens: It really depends on who's funding the study. He's right when he says that a lot of studies are funded by drug companies, but not all of them are. Not all studies are funded by drug companies. You can get grants and things like that. My husband's a research chemist, and so he's not been funded by a drug company ever.

Melanie Avalon: True. The closest thing would be, if ever they try to develop fasting mimetic drugs or drugs that-- if they're setting fasting, to figure out how the health benefits happen, then try and create drugs that would mimic that.

Gin Stephens: There's a lot of stuff going on at universities, that is not funded by like Big Pharma.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay. That's good.

Gin Stephens: There's a lot that is.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so he says, “The IF community is relatively young for the amount of time it takes for stones to develop. Maybe when the 20-year-olds in your community reach 50s to 60s after doing IF for 30 years, then we may get some data, and can do a retrospective study on the effects of intermittent fasting on gallstones. I first heard of IF about five years ago. I found out about the different plans but was unable to get started due to a lack of resolve and meal planning. The gallbladder issue was a factor back then too, but my friend was unable to address that question. My tip for looking up information about this topic will be to look up Abstracts and PubMed and Google Scholar, but use jargon like biliary stasis, which is delayed gallbladder emptying.” I don't even know how to say this. I feel bad for our transcript writers right now. Cholelithiasis, which is gallstones or cholecys--

Gin Stephens: Cholecystitis.

Melanie Avalon: Cholecystitis, which is gallbladder inflammation, due to gallbladder blocked by gallstones, which is the cause of the gallbladder-associated pain. He says, “You can also take a look at textbooks for the theory rather than in journals. I hope this clarifies a bit and helps you in your research. I'm still interested in continuing this on for now but wonder if more frequent cheat days is the solution for this. Kind regards, Mario.”

Gin Stephens: That was great info, Mario. Thank you for sending that in. It makes me think instead of “cheat days,” maybe ADF, alternate daily fasting.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, that would be--

Gin Stephens: Because every other day is an up day if you're doing alternate daily fasting.

Melanie Avalon: With the stasis that he talks about with things, I wonder how many hours it takes for that to--

Gin Stephens: Me, too. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: The study we talked about the last time was the one that looked at the fasting. I feel there was an increased risk at-- wasn't it between like 12 and 16 hours or 12 hours, but then after that the risk actually went down?

Gin Stephens: Oh, I can't remember.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. For listeners, we talked about this on a recent episode. One other thing I'd like to just draw attention to that he talked about, I do like how he pointed out that we don't really have long-term studies on a lot of the things in the IF community. It will be interesting to see over time how things manifest, but we have been doing fasting for a very long time as a species. At least there's that. It reminds me one of the things that Gary Taubes talks about in Case for Keto is, he questions the potential safety of foods and dietary protocols and things like that. He talks about how a lot of people debate health potential of dietary fat. I think he's quoting somebody else, but he calls them vintage fats. It's more likely that the fats we've been eating for thousands of years are likely much more safe for the human constitution than non-vintage fats, or just food in general.

Gin Stephens: I agree completely. Really, I think if we all just started eating real food that people have been eating for thousands of years, if you go back to what your great, great, great, great grandmother ate, and ate that, you'll probably be fine. You can't just say grandmother, because my grandmother was drinking Tab and putting saccharin in her tea. So, you have to go back farther than your grandmother [laughs] now, but the foods that are bought our bodies are adapted to eating those foods that are traditional foods.

Melanie Avalon: Like even saturated fats, for example, we've been eating for thousands of years compared to-- Well, obviously, like trans fats, but even refined polyunsaturated fats, we wouldn't really have been exposed to.

Gin Stephens: Well, think back in history, let's go back to Medieval England. The nobility that had the more refined foods and the more indulgent foods and the more processed foods, they had worse lifestyle diseases than the peasants. They were all healthy. I would have been a peasant. [laughs] My family, they were peasants. We're down there eating the brown bread, and I don't know what else we were eating. It was probably not something I would recognize as food right now. But we had different issues, obviously, with our health people were more likely to die of infections and viruses, the plague. But the lifestyle diseases with the food, the nobility did have those.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's definitely been a trend. Affluence and the effect. Thank you, Mario. That was very insightful, everything that he said,

Gin Stephens: Thank you for sending it. In 30 years, we'll have a follow up on episode 10,942. I don't know. I just did that. That's probably not the right math, but-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: The other book I'm reading right now are one of the books. There's so many. I'm bringing back on-- I think I talked about Sergey Young before, he's the longevity investor. He finally has his book coming out. I'm reading it right now. It's blowing my mind. Okay, the stuff that he thinks is going to happen relatively soon with health advances, I'll be really, really curious to see if it manifests. It seems like so out there and so far removed, but you think about how far we've come just in a few years, I guess, it could be possible. I mean, it's all longevity stuff, but in reversing aging, but wearables and monitoring health conditions and computer artificial intelligence and health. We shall see.

Gin Stephens: That is so cool. By the way, I just actually did the math, it will not be Episode 10,000. It'll be Episode 1560 in 30 years, plus 217. The reason I thought it would be so big is because we already are on episode 217, and it feels like we just started.

Melanie Avalon: It does feel like that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but we did not just start.

 Melanie Avalon: We should go back and listen to our first episode. The elusive first episode that I don't think I even have it anymore. You should go listen to episode 2.

Gin Stephens: We've been doing this for four years.

Melanie Avalon: Four years? Wait, actually four years?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, just over four years. We started in 2017.

Melanie Avalon: If we make it to five years, it'll be half a decade.

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: Isn't that crazy?

Gin Stephens: Yes. [laughs] Crazy. All right. Now my mind is blown. It just seemed like 30 years would be a lot more than that, but there's 52 weeks in a year. I multiply that by 30, and it was smaller than I was thinking. When I just randomly blurted out 10,000, but in 300 years when we get to episode 10,000. Yeah, we're not going to live that long, sorry.

Melanie Avalon: Sergey Young thinks that we might-- Yeah, he thinks immortality will be an option. Then, he thinks death will only occur from accidents, but those will be less common, because most of the accident things that we engage in today will have been taken care of like car crashes and stuff. Then, if you do die in an accident, you can be an avatar.

Gin Stephens: Now that's just gotten beyond me. I don't think I want to be an avatar and live forever. No, thank you.

Melanie Avalon: Well, you don't have to if you don't want to. [laughs] And you also don't have to live forever. Oh, wait, sorry, last thing. He asked this question, it's so funny, because he had the same approach to it that I did. I might have asked you this before. I thought everybody would want to live forever. We've talked about this, right?

Gin Stephens: I don't know if we have.

Melanie Avalon: I always just assumed everybody would want to live forever. When I ask people, I feel most people I asked don't want to live forever.

Gin Stephens: Well, also what age people are you asking? Because you're a lot younger than me. Are you asking people my age? We're like over it. No, we're not over it. That's-- [laughs] But we already know we don't want to live forever. That's all I'm saying.

Melanie Avalon: I probably mostly asking people your age. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: We love life. Life is fabulous. I love life.

Melanie Avalon: I feel I will perpetually-- I don't know, I guess we'll see.

Gin Stephens: I want to live for a long, long time, somewhere between a long time and forever, though, is the answer. [laughs] I do want to have a long, healthy life.

Melanie Avalon: Well, he talks about how three reasons people usually don't want to live forever. Then, when you dismantle them, maybe people do want to live forever. It's like people associate living forever with being decrepit, like being old and not being able to function, but that would not be the case. Then, people think that it's selfish or taxing to the environment if everybody lived forever. I haven't gotten to the chapter where he discusses that yet, but he says that's not a problem.

Gin Stephens: I have to admit, I did wonder about that, because if you live forever, then all the other generations grow up, and now they're all adults too. Now, we have all these adults, what do we do with all these adults? So many adults. Because everybody that's a child grows up, do you stop having children? And that would be sad because children are amazing. I love children. I think the answer is not a bunch of adults and never having children. Children are such a pleasure of life. I'm not just talking about your own children, but I'm loving watching my nieces grow up. One day, I'll have grandchildren and teaching children. All right, I'm thumbs down with immortality. No. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm curious, I’ll have to report back when I read that chapter. It's the only thing he said that he teased about it was he said that-- I didn't know this, did you know that--? Well, I don't know if I knew this. Our expansion rates are actually dropping.

Gin Stephens: I did know that. Yeah, I did know that.

Melanie Avalon: I think he said, like Japan and one other country are predicted to have, half of their population. I don't know what the timeline is on that.

Gin Stephens: I once read a statistic about that, that every man, woman, couple, whether you're married, whatever, needs to procreate at the rate of two point something-- clearly, we can't have point of a child, but that's the average. Two point something in order to continue to keep the species up because there's two of you, you have to reproduce by--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so once you fall below that, will that species actually eventually--?

Gin Stephens: Well, if the average fell to less than two for all of humans, though, just think about that. You're not reproducing at the rate that's enough to replace you when you die.

Melanie Avalon: Doesn't get it exponential, though, again, because you have--?

Gin Stephens: I don't know, I can't remember. I just know that I read that.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: Not if two people produce two people, that would not be exponential. Think about it. If every two people produced exactly two people, and then they die.

Melanie Avalon: But then those have two--

Gin Stephens: Well, those two people each have two people and then they die. You're not adding. All right, here's me and Chad, that's two of us. If we have two children, that's two more people, then we die, and we've made two people. Those two people marry somebody else that we did not create, but between them, no, it's not going to be exponential. It's only exponential if you create more people than you. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: If every two people created three people, now it's starting to get exponential.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Okay. I always spend too much time thinking about this.

Gin Stephens: I know it's like, “Ah.” [laughs] Well, anyway, my logic could be completely off, but it sounds perfectly reasonable to me right this minute.

Melanie Avalon: The other night I met with four friends. There were four combinations of a possibility of something that could happen. Each one of us was one of those combinations and the amount of time I spent later that night trying to figure out the odds of that, so if there were four possible options, and four people met, and each person is one of those four options-- I wish I'd still remembered math better, like permutations.

Gin Stephens: If you don't use it, you lose it.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Good times.

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We have a question from Christine. The subject is “Inhalers.” “I have been reading your book, Fast. Feast. Repeat. As I am reading, I started thinking about my puffers for asthma, wondering if they affect my weight. I looked it up, and it can because they're steroids. Wondering if you can expand on this at all, or if you have in the past. Also wondering, when I do take the puffer, it is in the nighttime before I go to bed, will this take me out of my fast? I'm just starting to listen to all of your podcasts. Thank you, Christine.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, this is a great question from Christine. In general, steroids are usually [sighs] linked to weight gain. I've always thought that it's usually because mostly electrolyte issues, like they cause you to retain water, but they can also just in general affect hormones. It's possible that they can increase your appetite and make you gain weight that way, or actually even change where your body stores fat. Which connects to what we're talking about last time with is a calorie a calorie and how there's so many factors that go into weight loss and weight gain and medication, I think, is a hugely underappreciated piece of the puzzle for many people in that. Medication doesn't have calories, but taking certain medication can 100% change how your body is using and storing calories if you're gaining or losing weight. So, yes, steroids can cause weight gain, that could be a thing. As far as it actually breaking your fast, we don't consider medications breaking the fast. Fasting is about if you're eating or not eating, it's not about if you're taking something that changes how you're metabolizing energy, that's not breaking your fast if it's not food. Gin, do you have thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Well, just you know, that's one of the things we know about steroids, like Melanie said, they are linked to weight gain. That is a well-publicized, well-understood side effect. You have to take what you need to breathe. If you've got asthma, and you've got to use your inhaler for medication in order to breathe, you have to do it. Weight gain may be the side effect, but it's important to take that medication that you need.

Now, here's a plus, with intermittent fasting, you may find your asthma gets a lot better. I've actually heard this a lot. People who were asthmatics who required inhalers a lot prior to intermittent fasting get to the point where they no longer need them. Inflammation goes down. So, you may find you don't need to use your inhaler-- of course, talk to your doctor, don't just stop using it, make a plan and use it when you need to. Fingers crossed, maybe you won't need it for long.

Melanie Avalon: A few different books that I've read recently have actually had chapters on asthma, and linked asthma to whatever the subject of the book was, but in general, the subject of the books, they've been things like metabolic issues regarding like insulin sensitivity, or dietary approaches or things like that. A lot of people, like Gin just said, with fasting, find a lot of health conditions that they might not suspect would be affected by fasting actually get better, or even go into remission. So, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yep. Oh, and I have an update, I looked it up because I was curious. The number is 2.1. The fertility rate needs to be 2.1 in order for the size of the population to remain stable. My logic was right. And just for a little bit of info here, in 1950, the average-- I just want you to guess. I'll do what you always do. How many children--?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I love the guessing game.

Gin Stephens: No, I knew you did. All right, in 1950, guess what the average rate of how many children a woman would have in her lifetime was?

Melanie Avalon: Four.

Gin Stephens: It was 4.7

Melanie Avalon: 4.7?

Gin Stephens: Yep. 4.7. Of course, that's an average no one's having point seven of a child, but one person had four, someone else had five. Yeah, in 1950. I guess it's probably a worldwide stat putting it all together. Of course, it depends country to country. What will it be by 2100?

Melanie Avalon: By 2100. Okay, wait. you said it needs to be 2.1 for us to-- do I think that they think by 2100 that we will be stable or not? That is the question. Hmm. So, I think 2.1?

Gin Stephens: No, it was already 2.4 by 2017. So, they're predicting it will fall to 1.7 by 2100. This article--

Melanie Avalon: Ooh.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, the researchers are predicting that the number of people on the planet will peak around 2064 and then begin to fall. Isn't that interesting?

Melanie Avalon: Unless Sergey Young is correct, in which case. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Well, then we got a different problem. [laughs] Will you change careers a bunch of times? You don't want to do the same job for 500 years, probably. By that time, you're really tired of your husband’s BS. I'm just going to tell you. 500 years later, you're like, “I didn't sign up for eternity, for 500 years.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I just won't get married, solve that problem.

Gin Stephens: That would change everything.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Another reason I don't want to. Just forever. What are you going to do for the next 100 years? How many jobs do you want to have? I guess maybe it would be a plus, you could try a lot of jobs. I could be an interior designer, like I wanted to be, and then I could do something else.

Melanie Avalon: I've never wanted to do anything else besides the stuff that I do.

Gin Stephens: Really, I have so many things I would like to do.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Interesting. Got me thinking. All right. Shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. A little bit of a long email but has two good questions. This is from Jen. The subject is “Everything is terrible. Berberine rebound. Hyperglycemia/gut microbiome changes?” It's a very descriptive subject. Jen says, “Hi, ladies. Number one, I did the ZOE test after hearing Gin talk about it. And much to my dismay, everything came back as “bad.” Bad blood sugar clearance, bad blood fat clearance, bad gut microbiome. I'm so disappointed. I was surprised because my fasting glucose is typically in the 70s to 80s. I eat a lot of different vegetables and take P3-OM. I eat an omnivorous diet where my main meal is usually pretty healthy focusing on whole foods. I still enjoy a smallish amount of processed junky stuff for my snacks, which I know I need to minimize for my gut microbiome and overall dietary inflammation. I've started my ZOE program, and notice that if I eat the exact same amount of the exact same foods in a day, but portion/time them differently, I can get a vastly different ZOE score.

For example, entering a mealtime to my usual one meal a day lifestyle where I'll have a large amount of fat, we will arbitrarily say 60 grams, in a short period of time will significantly lower my score. But if I have that exact same amount of fat, with the exact same foods, but spread out over a meal and a snack, spaced at least a few hours apart, where I have 40 grams and then 20 grams of fat later, my day score will be much higher. I get that's because of the impact of dietary inflammation from too much fat, especially with my slow fat clearance. Does this mean one meal a day really is not the IF lifestyle for me? Do you think my one meal a day lifestyle is making this worse, since I eat one large meal a day, plus some smaller snacks that basically dump all my macronutrients in a short period of time? Should I do two really small meals spaced apart to give my sluggish blood sugar and fat clearance time to move things out? This will really cut down my daily fasting hours and I'd hate to miss out on all the health benefits of a longer fast. But if one meal a day creates too much of an inflammatory blood fat burden on me, I suppose that could negate the benefits of a longer fast and the first place?”

She tells us a little bit about her. She says she's been doing one meal a day with clean fasting for a little over a year, “Usually 20 to 24 hours fasting with around a three-hour eating window. Sometimes 18-hour fast on the weekends, I usually still do 40- to 44-hour fast once a week followed by an up day. My fasting glucose is usually 70s to 80s. HbA1c is in the low 5. My cholesterol and triglycerides are excellent, blood pressure is good, normal BMI.” Despite her garbage gut microbiome, she can eat anything comfortably, really loves doing one meal a day and feels great on it. When she did two smaller comparison meals, when she was doing the ZOE test, she felt hungry and unsatisfied. Maybe there's a lot of dietary inflammation going on inside. She says, “I don't know because my blood sugar and fat clearance.” This is a really good question.

Gin Stephens: It is, and keep in mind we are not ZOE researchers. [laughs] I'm a consumer of the ZOE program. I'm not involved in the science of it or running it. I'm just someone who used it and shared about it. I have talked to them, of course, because I'm such a fan, because it's such good cutting-edge science. We're actually part of the science here. They're using the information they're getting from us. They're continuing to add to the research and learn more about people. That's what's really exciting here. Jen, this is J-E-N, by the way, so I imagine you're Jennifer. Jen, I got the same as you, except my gut microbiome wasn't bad. It wasn't ideal. It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't bad. I did have slow blood sugar clearance. Instead of calling it bad, let's just call it slow.

Melanie Avalon: Can I ask a quick question?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Do you take the muffins and then later do your food as well, and it determines your blood sugar clearance based on your CGM only?

Gin Stephens: No, I don't know what their algorithm is for calculating your blood sugar clearance. No. You enter when you eat the muffins, but you also take a blood sample afterwards. I don't know what they're used. I mean, I can't answer that, because I don't know. They do have your CGM data, obviously. You also have a blood sample that you send them within a period of time after having the muffins, so they might be using the blood sample, not the CGM. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: My question is, I'm just trying to get a sense of the program. Is it like you do the muffins, do the blood sample, do the CGM, and then when you're starting the ZOE program-- because you get scores, is it still monitoring your CGM? Or do you just put them in?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you just put the meals in the app and it gives you a score. It's not like looking--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, later. Later, once you've sent everything in, you send the CGM back, and they take all of your data. They have these predictive algorithms that they use, and they put-- and so everyone has different numbers. Some of the moderators for my community have done it. We've compared back in discussions, like this is what chickpeas are for me, this is what happens to avocado. I mean, we all have different numbers. Legit, every person is going to have something different than the other people. But it's all based on everything put into this predictive algorithm based on your blood sugar clearance, your blood fat clearance, and what happens with your CGM, and what you have in your gut microbiome based on the species that they find in your gut microbiome and what makes the good guys thrive, or what would make the bad guys thrive. They want you to avoid things that would feed the negative inhabitants of your gut microbiome, and they encourage you to eat the things that are linked to nurturing the good gut microbiome and then, whether your body handles the fat well.

I have slow blood fat clearance, I also had slow blood sugar clearance. Jen, I think this is amazing data because, think about this, when I wrote Delay, Don't Deny, this research hadn't started yet, research they're doing now. 2017 was the first time I ever heard of people having a different blood glucose response, that science was just being reported in 2017 with that TED Talk with Eran Segal, and the whole idea of Personalized Nutrition. All of this is unfolding right now. We're learning that, “Hey, we don't all process the food the same way.” Actually, Jen, 100%, yes, if our bodies process this energy slowly, then maybe we do need a longer eating window because if you think about what we've talked about with Marty Kendall, he talks about energy toxicity. When we have too much energy building up in our bloodstream, that's not good. He talks about that with, he has blog posts about it, in any kind of energy, whether it's too much fat, too much blood glucose, or even too many ketones building up. Energy toxicity, according to Marty, and he explains this very well in his writing, is when you have too much energy in your blood, that is not what we want.

That being said, you may find that take that same exact amount of food just like ZOE is prompting you to spread it out, spread it out. ZOE didn't tell you what to eat. Specifically, you still get to decide what to eat, but think about how you're shifting it around. Also, alternatively, maybe you're talking about having 60 grams of fat, maybe your body would do better with less fat, you can also change what you're eating based on the fact that that might not be good for your body. Like for me, if I eat too much fat, it does feel inflammatory for me. When I did keto and I felt so bad. In order to feel my best, I do feel better when I add less fat to my meals, if I overdo it and have too much fat, I feel a little puffy, I really can tell the difference. Knowledge is power. We're learning things about our bodies that 10 years ago, no one could have told you. Instead of being like upset-- because I get it, I'm bummed that my body has bad blood fat clearance or slow-- Let's use the word slow, not bad. Slow blood fat clearance and slow blood sugar clearance, I wish that were not the case, but it's the body I have.

In order to have the best outcome for me, if I want to focus on what I'm eating, I can choose whole foods, slightly less fat. You don't have to have zero because you're talking about-- if you have 40 grams of fat, and then 20 grams of fat later, that's still a lot of fat. The low-fat people who are like strictly low fat would not be having 60 grams of fat in a day. So, 60 grams of fat is not destined to not have fat, you're still having fat and your food can still be delicious. But just spreading it out a little bit might be better for your body. That's what their science is telling them. That's why they're making these recommendations.

One thing about them that's interesting, a lot of people may not know this, I've got some friends that went through it way earlier than I did, like a whole year before I did. I didn't have time, I was working on Fast. Feast. Repeat. I didn't have time to fool with it at that time. I was like, “I'll just come back to it later,” and I did. But they changed the app recommendations right in the middle of while all my friends that did it before me were in the middle of trying to create their meals. They had rerun data, they had new data, and it changed the recommendations. They're like, “What? The recommendations are different.” They are genuinely responding to what they're learning. They are changing and making changes to the recommendations as they get more data. They didn't just get some data, and now they're just going on that old data. It's new and updated. Am I explaining this well, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Gin Stephens: It's responding to what they're learning. As they gather more data from more participants, they're refining everything about the process. This is ongoing scientific research. I bet in three years, we'll know more than we know now. I know that's true. Don't be bummed about it. Even though I know that you asked a lot of questions about, does that mean I shouldn't fast as long? Well, you could still fast as long as if you tweaked what you were eating a little bit, or just have a slightly longer eating window. I really don't think there's a giant difference. Think about it, if you're having the exact same amount of food, you're calling it one meal a day, you're eating it in a short period of time, versus if you spread it out a few hours apart, I don't think you're going to have a vastly different fasting experience. Does that make sense, Melanie? Because that's really how I do it anyway. My one meal a day is not like an hour. What I eat is spaced out over a few hours. Don't feel you're not going to get in the health benefits of fasting if you have to eat for a five-hour window. That's okay.

Melanie Avalon: Quick side note question, because you mentioned it. You recorded with Marty Kendall yesterday, right?

Gin Stephens: He streamed it in his Facebook group.

Melanie Avalon: Did he ask you any questions from me?

Gin Stephens: Yes, he did.

Melanie Avalon: Because he messaged me and was like, “What questions do I ask Gin that the audience might like to hear?” What did he ask you?

Gin Stephens: I can't remember. We talked for about so many things, I can't remember which ones were you. Also, it was like 6 PM, and I hadn't eaten yet, so I was like, “I'm ready to have some food now.” [laughs] I had a 24-hour fast yesterday, I don't usually, but we had such a fun conversation. I love Marty Kendall. He's great. The whole idea of really what ZOE is telling us from the results of our clearance is the same thing Marty is saying. You don't want to have too much energy building up in your bloodstream. We're learning that.

Melanie Avalon: Question again about the muffins, and I would like to try this out. They never answered the email that you sent. Is there a low carb muffin test at all or no?

Gin Stephens: No. [laughs] You're not going to like these muffins. They're full of yucky stuff. They're not high quality, like artisanal muffins. [laughs] It's funky fat.

Melanie Avalon: So, you're eating fat in the context of carbs, and it's testing your fat clearance?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, these are not the muffins that you would eat. It's only just that one period of time and it's short, and then you're done with it.

Melanie Avalon: The thing I'm trying to focus on is, it doesn't test fat clearance in the context of a low carb situation, it sounds like. It only tests fat clearance in the context of carbs.

Gin Stephens: Of their experiment. It only tests what they are testing. It's based on just that one variable. They have one variable and here's the muffin. You're the variable, I guess. The muffin is not a variable, muffin is controlled. What your body does with it, is what they're trying to see. Same muffin for everybody.

Melanie Avalon: Again, I haven't done ZOE. So, I can't comment specifically, but just what I'm hearing, it sounds like it's testing the concern that I've had, that I talked about on the show for, I mean, maybe since day one, which is--

Gin Stephens: Fats and carbs together?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I haven't done ZOE, but that's why I personally eat to address that. I eat to address that in a way that actually allows liberal amounts of fat if I so desire. That's why I was asking about if they do a low carb thing, because it sounds like they're testing fat clearance in the context of carbs.

Gin Stephens: Well, there's two different kinds of muffins. Did you know that?

Melanie Avalon: That you get?

Gin Stephens: You do a high fat muffin, and then you do a higher sugar muffin.

Melanie Avalon: Does the high fat muffin have carbs in it, though?

Gin Stephens: Yes, neither is low of what you would consider-- Neither muffin would be what you would consider low fat or low sugar, but it's lower than the other one. Like the one that's high fat, obviously has a higher proportion of fat, but it still has the carbs. The one that is the higher sugary muffin still has fat in it. It's just a lower proportion. They change the proportion of the ingredients that you're having.

Melanie Avalon: My curiosity there is, for people that it brands as poor fat clearers, it sounds like we don't know if they are poor fat clearers in the context of a ketogenic diet. Just that they are in the context of carbs.

Gin Stephens: Well, that would be a different study.

Melanie Avalon: Right. The reason I'm drawing attention to that is, I'm a little bit concerned, if they get labeled as a bad fat clearer, it might just be that-- again, I'm speaking from a very uninformed position, and that I don't know of the technicalities of what they're testing and everything, but it sounds like people might be bad fat clearers in a carb context, which is what they're testing. I don't know if that always translates to bad fat clearers in the ketogenic state. I'm just thinking right now, like, I hadn't pre-thought about this, the ironic thing is those that are bad fat clearers, if they like fat, they might actually respond better to a low carb, higher fat diet, because that would make it easier to clear fat.

Gin Stephens: I'm not following that. I don't know. Okay, I felt awful on low carb. I felt inflamed and came back as a poor fat clearer, unsurprisingly. I don't feel like having a really high fat diet made me feel great. It didn't.

Melanie Avalon: A lot of people who do really well on low carb, it's often because they don't do well on carbs. One of the reasons they don't do well on carbs might be because they're poor fat clearers in the context of carbs.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, well, that's certainly a possibility, but that would be a whole different experiment, it would be interesting.

Melanie Avalon: What I'm trying to say is, I don't think that means that you can't have fats. I think a lot of people might extrapolate from that, that they need to be on a low-fat diet accordingly, or that they need to watch their fats because they're not good at clearing fats. An alternative that ZOE, I don't think is going to recommend, based on what I know about it. An alternative might actually be a low carb diet, and then you could have more fats. If you're a bad fat, clear, there are two ways you can go. It's the way that I actually live my life, which is not combining fats and carbs. I anticipate-- I don't know if I'm a bad fat clearer, but I feel like I am. That's why I eat my one meal a day, but I do either low fat, or low carb. I don't combine the two. Basically, just like if it says you're a bad fat clearer, I think there might actually be multiple ways that you could use that data. Like for Gin, if she does want to have a lot of fat, I love what she said and what Gin was saying about spreading it out over a long amount of time or maybe trying fat in the context of a low carb diet.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I feel you just don't know that though. When you say that, someone who's a bad fat clearer because they're having the muffin, because it has carbs in it too, but it was the carbs that made them be a bad fat clearer, so just have a lot of fat, and not carbs and you'll be fine. I don't think that's what we can just jump to that, that that's the answer.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, 100%. We also can't make the other assumption that they're a bad fat clearer just by the fact. We don't know.

Gin Stephens: Well, I think most people, and I know that that might be hard for you, or maybe some people in the audience to realize, most people eat fats and carbs together all the time.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know. That's not hard for me to realize.

Gin Stephens: Right. Most people are not low carb or low fat. They're eating food together. ZOE is targeting people who are eating like the normal context of food. Most people eat things that are combined. They give us food that's combined and they're testing the combined foods, instead of isolating because they're not trying to limit macros. Even for me with my slower fat clearance, ZOE doesn't recommend that I go low fat. I just need to be a little more mindful with how I'm having it and not compressing it, because she's exactly right. If I have too much fat in a short window, my score goes down. Again, they're also not trying to make you keep your score to any certain thing. It's just we tend to gamify things like that. It's like, “Well, if I can get a score, I want to get 100. I don't want to get a 60.” It's just teaching you what pattern might be better for your body, and then you design your life accordingly. If that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: 100%, I realize most people eat mixed macro situations with what they're testing-- and this is why I would love to interview them. I'm going to follow up on that email.

Gin Stephens: Yes, they are testing a mixed macro situation, because that is how the majority of people are eating.

Melanie Avalon: Which is why I was saying with the fasting, I think a solution for a lot of people, even though the majority of the population eats mix macros, a lot of people in the health sphere do play with macros, specifically. I think there are a lot of potential solutions if it says that you're a bad fat clearer. There's spreading it out and seeing how that makes you feel, then there's playing with the macros, so doing--

Gin Stephens: And that is what they recommend. They recommend spreading it out, because then you're clearing, you have time to clear it. That's the whole point of it because you put in your meal and the time that you eat it, so it predicts based on the data they have on you, how long it will take for you to clear it.

Melanie Avalon: I wish they would do a low carb muffin too. I wonder how that would change things.

Gin Stephens: That would be a whole different study, right?

Melanie Avalon: They could still. I wish they would do it as maybe a two-day thing where you do-- or just another arm of the study. It's like another part of the testing protocol that you do, because it would seem that you would want to know how you clear fat in the context of just fat. A lot of people have been talking about it in my Facebook group, their thoughts and everything. People seem to really, really like the gut microbiome findings because you tested-- don’t you do a stool sample as well?

Gin Stephens: Yes, you do.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so people who have sent in that, say that's great. I want to do it for that like are really, really do want to do it and figuring out your gut microbiome and all of that. Then, people love hearing about the fat clearance as well. People seem to say that, in general, it seems to recommend lower fat, regardless, perhaps it's based more on the foods that they think support the microbiome.

Gin Stephens: Probably so, you have to know that is his foundation. That is Tim Spector’s foundation. If you ask a plumber to come over, he's going to do plumbing stuff. If you ask a gut researcher to do something, he's going to spin it towards the gut, because he knows the health of the gut, and what nourishes your gut. That's what he's focusing on. It shouldn't surprise people. When people get those results back, you're getting gut researcher recommendations on what that gut researcher based on research believes will feed your gut the best and it might not be what a diet book that you read, recommending carnivore said to eat. I'm just throwing that out as an example. A gut researcher is looking at the gut, and what is going to make that thrive. Whereas somebody who's writing a book about keto maybe just focusing on what your blood sugar levels are doing or something, I don't know. People focus on different parts of what our bodies are doing. Of course, we're not doing anything in isolation. That's the thing. We're not just our gut. We're not just our blood sugar response. It's all of it together.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. 100%.

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Melanie Avalon: She has one more question. She says, “I've also been wearing a CGM since I finished the ZOE test because I love the data that it gave. I used Melanie’s discount for NutriSense.” Thank you. “Anyway, I've been experimenting with berberine, also after hearing Melanie talk about it. Melanie, you are an influencer, even though you don't think you are. Admittedly, sometimes to see what I can “get away” with during my eating window,” with a little like emoji, that's like, ugh, I don't know what you call that emoji. What would you call that emoji?

Gin Stephens: I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Grimacing.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I was thinking grimacing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. She says, “I take only 500 milligrams of Thorne Berberine 500 once a day, about 30 minutes before my meal, I take it only on days I eat a lot of carbs. It definitely blunts my glucose response, but sometimes I noticed around three to six hours later, I'll have a big spike or two up to 140s to 150s. Is this because the berberine can only suppress the spike for so long? It looks like the half-life is around five hours, but I would have already finished eating a couple hours prior. I don't want to take another dose because I don't want to risk hypoglycemia. How long should it be taken? I read it has antimicrobial properties, which I imagine would worsen my gut microbiome. Any thoughts on the new blood sugar breakthrough from BioOptimizers? Or pendulum probiotics? Thank you, ladies.”

Gin Stephens: Now that is totally a Melanie question. I'm going to defer to you.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to say, “Gin, do you want me to take this one?”

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah, I don't even want to answer that. I don't know what berberine is doing in your body.

Melanie Avalon: First of all, I'll put a link in the show notes to two things to the discount for NutriSense, if you'd like to get a CGM. I have a code for 15% off. I think it's melanieavalon.com/nutrisensecgm with the coupon, MELANIEAVALON, I think. Either way, we'll put it in the show notes. Second thing, I'll put a link to the interview that I did with Shawn Wells. He's really big in the supplement world. We had a very long conversation about berberine. I am a huge fan of berberine. It has been shown to basically rival the beneficial health effects of metformin, which is a pharmaceutical, and it lowers blood sugar pretty consistently. When I've worn a CGM, I've seen that it can do really great things for my blood sugar levels. It's debated about how it works, probably it reduces actual glucose absorption in the GI tract. Then also, it might be that it actually downregulates the liver’s production of glucose, so downregulating gluconeogenesis in the liver.

As far as she's taking it and she's seeing that it reduces, but then she has a big spike later. I don't know, it could be that the berberine is-- because she talks about the half-life, it could be that it is wanting that initial spike, but then there's still glucose absorbing later on. Could be that it only has an immediate effect for you in the liver. I don't know. But it sounds like it is “petering out” in a way. In any case, I would encourage you not to take it for-- because she said she basically takes it to see what she can “get away” with. I think it's a little bit of a dangerous path. I feel a lot of people do this with metformin and diabetic medications and insulin even, basically relying on those to mitigate the potential blood sugar issues from the diet. I would just encourage you to maybe occasionally but try not to make that a habit because we don't want to be relying on something like berberine to undo potentially dangerous blood sugar spikes. Also, because she said how long can it be taken? There's a lot of debate out there about taking it long term versus not. People have been talking about this a lot in my Facebook group. My Facebook group, by the way, is IF Biohackers, so I've been taking it for months now and I'm probably going to keep taking it and I know some people think-- like Shawn is a fan of taking it every day, basically for life, but I'm not a doctor. I don't know.

Gin Stephens: I don't know that we know. I mean, we don't have data of someone who takes berberine every day for years. We don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I guess we know people will take Metformin every day for years, and it seems like it has the benefits of Metformin without the potential negative side effects. But yeah, I can't really speak to it, but I feel like Gin is probably spot on with what is happening as far as it's blunting it in the beginning and then not so much later. I actually haven't tried Blood Sugar Breakthrough by BiOptimizers, people have posted in the group about it and love it, so I definitely need to try it. I have no idea what Pendulum probiotics are, so I can't comment.

Gin Stephens: What's Blood Sugar Breakthrough supposed to do? It's sort of like berberine?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it’s sort of berberine, it's supposed to lower blood sugar levels. I think it's like berberine, cinnamon, it's like all these different things. It has a few different ingredients. It has propolis, bitter melon, Tibetan holy fruit extract, gluco advantage. Okay, so this is actually dihydroberberine. Okay, if it contains glucose advantage, I think that's Shawn Wells’ is, I think he patented that. I could be incorrect. I think Shawn did that. It has dihydroberberine which is much more potent form of berberine has cinnulin, has ALA, alpha-lipoic acid, [unintelligible [01:06:19], benfotiamine, glucofit, which is a patented banaba leaf extract, has [unintelligible [01:06:27] I can't even pronounce, fucoxanthin. Yeah, okay. So, it's got a lot of stuff in it. Basically, it's stuff to lower resting blood sugar levels. You could try that, or you could just start with berberine. Okay, that was a lot.

Gin Stephens: That was a lot.

Melanie Avalon: This has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go, you'll definitely want to check out the show notes for today's show because we talked about a lot and there will be a full transcript there and show notes and links to everything that we talked about that will be at ifpodcast.com/episode217. If you would like to submit your own questions to the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. I'm @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. I think that is everything. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that was it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

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Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 216 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment., pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell about one of our favorite companies. I'm sure you've heard us talk about a supplement called Magnesium Breakthrough by BiOptimizers and we've been blown away by what listeners have shared with us about it. Anya said, “I love Magnesium Breakthrough. I sleep so well and feel well rested in the morning. It also helps me feel less crabby. I love it so much. It's a nonnegotiable. It's on auto-ship.” Sandra said, “I can work out and muscles are not as sore.” Damon said, “It has helped me with my PTSD. I no longer take medication to help me sleep through the night.” Crystal said, “I have way fewer muscle cramps, less eye twitching, and definitely more regular in the bathroom department.” Joan said, “Where do I start? Better sleep, better recovery from strength training. No more leg cramps. I just feel better in general.” Betsy said, “Game changer. Magnesium Breakthrough is the only magnesium supplement that improved my motility, calms my nerves and anxiety, helps me sleep without sleep meds, and got rid of my restless legs. It's the only supplement that I never forget to take. I purchase six plus bottles at a time. I will never quit buying it. I take two capsules every night and recommend it to anyone who will listen.” That's just a few of them.

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Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health, and ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for led, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years and your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter, and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. On top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combined the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my Clean Beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. Again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is Episode 216 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am doing great. It is summery. It is hot. I'm so happy.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: So, therefore, I know you're sad.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, can I tell you a story related to that?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Okay.

Gin Stephens: I'm sorry. That was a joke. Yes, please. [laughs] Tell me the story, I would love to hear it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, perfect. It's a little bit longer. It's my crazy epic weekend, last weekend, would you like to hear?

Gin Stephens: Does it involve cryotherapy?

Melanie Avalon: It involves-- I could insert that if I wanted, not entirely.

Gin Stephens: Well, I just felt like it did, since I mentioned being hot.

Melanie Avalon: It involves being hot.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Yes, I would love to hear about it.

Melanie Avalon: It just involves the epicness of a weekend. Okay. Are we ready? So, Friday, I interviewed Gary Taubes.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's exciting. How was he?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, it was--

Gin Stephens: Balmy, is that what are you going to say? Nothing. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It was incredible. For listeners, who are not familiar with Gary Taubes, he wrote a lot. He wrote Good Calories, Bad Calories. He wrote The Case Against Sugar. He wrote one more in between and Why We Get Fat, I think.

Gin Stephens: Yes, that's it. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and then most recently--

Gin Stephens: I read the first two. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Most recently, he wrote The Case for Keto. I mean, I've been following his work. I know I interview a lot of really amazing people on the show, but I get-- I don't know, when it's somebody that I've been following for that long, because I basically read Good Calories, Bad Calories when I first started getting obsessed with the low carb diet. I mean, I read that before, like Paleo Solution, I think that was the first thing I read.

Gin Stephens: Oh, can I clarify something when I said I read the first two, I don't mean The Case for Sugar. The two that you named the first two, were not his first two. His first two were Good Calories, Bad Calories and Why Do We Get Fat. I read his first two.

Melanie Avalon: I said those out of order.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Melanie, like you said, that was the book that made me realize, “Oh, my gosh, there's more than just calories.”

Melanie Avalon: Which one? Good Calories, Bad Calories?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I read it with my jaw on the floor. All the carbohydrate hypothesis, whatever, even if it's not all 100% exactly like he lays it out. It's still opened my mind to, “Wow, the body is more complicated.” Yeah, I'm fangirling right here with you.

Melanie Avalon: I know, and what's interesting about Gary is, he's not a like a scientist. He's a science journalist. His books are-- they're very historical, so they cover like the history of everything.

Gin Stephens: Well, like Michael Pollan.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, like that. I was nervous, because, A, like I said, I've been following him for so long. I even talk about Good Calories, Bad Calories in What When Wine I reference him. And then, B, I get really nervous. I think I've talked about this before interviewing journalists, because they are interviewers, so they know if I'm asking good questions. So, I'm like, “Oh, I have to show up, I have to have good questions.” It was so exciting because he literally stopped me multiple times. Like he would be talking, answering my question, and then he would stop and just be like, “You're asking really good questions.” I was like, “Oh, my goodness.”

Gin Stephens: I know that's what you wanted to hear, right?

Melanie Avalon: I know. I was so excited.

Gin Stephens: You're like, “I don't care. That's all I wanted.”

Melanie Avalon: I know, I was glowing, glowing. At the very end, he was like, normally I ask them if they want to come back on the show, but I didn't even ask that, and he was like, “I would love to come back on.” He gave me four amazing words. I think like intelligent, sometimes naïve, one other word, challenging questions. I was like, “Oh, my goodness.” At the end, when we stopped recording, he iterated that he really meant everything that he said.

Gin Stephens: By the way, I noticed you said iterated.

Melanie Avalon: I know, every time.

Gin Stephens: I was paying attention. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I never say reiterate ever now. Listeners, iterate means the same thing as reiterate, to iterate.

Gin Stephens: That’s so funny.

Melanie Avalon: I was head over heels, but I got done with the interview, this was Friday afternoon. I noticed my air was not-- it wasn't cold air. So, I called maintenance and I did not have any expectations that they would come. When they hadn't come by 10 PM, I was like, you know me, I can't do heat. I went to Home Depot at 10 PM right before they closed, got a portable air conditioning unit to install. Came back, opened it, it was not the right thing inside of the box.

Gin Stephens: Oh my gosh, did someone had returned?

Melanie Avalon: I think so, and stolen.

Gin Stephens: They're supposed to check that.

Melanie Avalon: I know. But what's funny is, so it was a dehumidifier, but a different brand. But you're not expecting it to not be the right thing, so it took me so long to figure out it was not the right thing. I was like looking at the instructions. I was like, “This just doesn't match the picture.” [laughs] It's like, “I can't figure out how to install this.” Then, I went to Walmart at 11:00 PM, and got another unit installed it, just haphazardly threw it out the window because I knew it was for one night only. Okay, but wait, the story's not over. Are you ready? The next day, I was eagerly waiting for the maintenance people to call because this is the south, I can't do heat.

Gin Stephens: Well, I like heat, but I wouldn't like no air conditioning in the summer heat. Okay, so. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: And I had something that I was needed to be dressed up for, and calm and collected that night. I was like, “I'm going to be a mess. This is awful.” I was very trigger happy with anybody who-- if I had a missed call, I would call them back because I was hoping it was maintenance. So, I had a missed call and I called him back. And he was like, “Hello.” I was like, “I had a missed call from this number.” He was like, “Oh, it must have been an accident.” I was like, “Okay, sorry. I'm just waiting on a call from somebody.” He was like, “Well, who are you waiting on a call from?” I was like, “Well--” And he's like, “Oh, it doesn't matter. Probably not anything.” I was like, “Yeah,” so then I hung up. Then, I realized I accidentally called Gary Taubes.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's so funny.

Melanie Avalon: By accident.

Gin Stephens: But he had accidentally called you first?

Melanie Avalon: He had accidentally called me, I guess, but I called him back. Well, the thing is, I think he probably knew it was me when I called him. It was just very awkward. I was like, “This is my life.”

Gin Stephens: That's so funny. It must be air conditioner because Sheri who is my co-host for Life Lessons, she just had to have her air conditioner replaced.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Well, when the seasons change, you're asking it to do something new that it hasn't been doing, that's when it often fails.

Melanie Avalon: They said the person before had put in too much Freon, so it actually made it overshoot and shortcircuited or something, I don't know.

Gin Stephens: That's interesting. I never heard of too much Freon.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, he seemed surprised, but that was the possibility. So, that's my epic story about--

Gin Stephens: Well, that's good. I'm glad that Gary was great.

Melanie Avalon: He was, and I sent him a copy of my book.

Gin Stephens: Oh, good. I mentioned him in Delay, Don't Deny.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really.

Gin Stephens: His book is in my-- Good Calories, Bad Calories is in the back where I talk about things to read, just the whole idea that it's more than just calories. Really, that is mind blowing considering what we had been told. People still think it.

Melanie Avalon: I can't wait to air the episode. One of the good moments in our conversation was I asked him if my interpretation of his insulin theory was-- basically, it was this what he was saying, and he was like, “Yes, that's it, exactly.” It's that we get fat, not so much because we are gaining weight, but that we lose the ability to lose weight, like we lose the ability to burn fat, and so we necessarily gain weight.

Gin Stephens: I know one way he puts it, tell me if this is what he says, I think it is. This stuck in my head. We're not gaining weight, because we're overeating. We're overeating because we're gaining weight. It's like the draw to overeat happens first. I think I've heard him say that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's one of his main tenets, because one of the interesting things that we discussed was, because this is something I've been thinking about a lot. I don't know if I can properly articulate it, but basically-- okay, so if you're on a super high-carb, super low-fat diet, the insulin response can make it so that you might never be tapping into your fat stores. So, you basically lose the ability to burn the fat that you have, even if-- and this is a nuance that we've discussed on this podcast and something I talked about with Gary, it's that carbs themselves don't readily become fat. Say you're eating just carbs, it would be hard to gain fat from that, but you at the very least it would make it very, very hard to burn your existing fat. Compared to if you ate a low-carb, super high-fat diet, it actually would be relatively easy to store fat from what you're eating, but you would be burning your fat easily.

Gin Stephens: It all has to do with insulin, and whether your insulin is high versus low.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so like the ironic thing about those two situations is, in the high carb situation, it actually might be hard to gain weight, but you're probably not going to lose weight. As a consequence, you probably are going to slowly gain because it's unlikely that you would be at maintenance all the time. Compared to high fat, low carb, it actually might be relatively easy to store excess calories as fat but you're going to be easily tapping into your stores, so it's easier for you to lose weight. It's hard to articulate.

Gin Stephens: Well, again, it has to do with what your insulin is doing. If your insulin is high, high, high and Gary's main theory is it's only going to be high if you're overdoing carbs. His connection is, you're only going to have high insulin in a high-carb state. That's the problem for him. Why he tends to be low carb, or is low carb, he doesn't tend to be low carb, he is low carb.

Melanie Avalon: It was really, really epic. We ended the discussion-- we went to a major tangent on regenerative agriculture, because he talks about that a little bit in The Case for Keto, and I want that to be his next book so bad. He admitted he hasn't really researched it that much. He's not convinced on the sustainability of regenerative agriculture or anything like that. I'd be really excited if he actually would go down that rabbit hole.

Gin Stephens: Yep. So much to still learn.

Melanie Avalon: I know. So, yeah, sorry that was long, is there anything with you?

Gin Stephens: Doing our backyard remodel still. It's going on forever. [laughs] We're just the slowest remodelers ever since the pandemic began-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I know, I feel like you're in perpetual remodel state.

Gin Stephens: We got the plans for this drawn in fall of 2020, that's when we had the architect come over. We've never been dragging our feet. It's just taken forever to do everything, but we're finally starting to have things progress. They're building on the back of the garden shed, we are doing the screen porch, about to have the concrete floor put in, the pool is about to-- I mean we're waiting, concrete is next and then so. We might have it done. We might be able to get in the pool before summer's over. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I love looking at pictures of like houses and stuff, so send me pictures when it's done.

Gin Stephens: I will. I'm just really excited. I can't wait to get out on the screen porch. Anyway, what I've been doing is sitting in the front yard. Did I tell you this already?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think, and read books.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I put out-- we got it two Adirondack chairs. We have this area in the front that's like got pine trees in it, and it's got pine straw, and so it's shady. I'm sitting in the front yard. It just that happens my neighbor across the street, they gutted their house. They just bought it, been a part of an estate, and it sat vacant for a while. We've never had anyone lived there, so they gutted it and they're redoing it. So, they're there all the time, and they're retired. They're similar age to me. They're there doing the work and I'm sitting in the front yard. I'm like out there visiting, in my front yard with neighbors’ people walk by and their dogs. I'm like getting to know the neighbors in a whole new way. I feel almost like a weirdo. They're like, “There's that lady sitting in her yard again.” [laughs] Because I was never in the yard and now I'm always in the front yard just sitting there reading or doing whatever. It's funny, but today she came sat with me. We're both sitting in the front yard together. I was like, “This is what a neighborhood supposed to be.”

Melanie Avalon: I love it. It reminds me of Mister Rogers' Neighborhood.

Gin Stephens: Well, because before I always sat in the back, we tend to sit in the backyard and the private spaces, but I can't go back there because it looks like the moon. I'm not kidding. [laughs] Anyway, it's going to be nice, but I'm going to make an effort to still sit in the front yard sometimes.

Melanie Avalon: I love it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and get to know the neighbors.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.

Gin Stephens: All right, so shall we get started? We have some feedback.

Melanie Avalon: Sure.

Gin Stephens: This is from Ginny. The subject is “Fat rolls, not symmetrical.” She says, “Hi, ladies. You're fabulous, and I am definitely binge listening to all of your episodes and I'm a member of DDD Social Network and have read all the books.” That's awesome, Ginny. I'm so glad to hear it. She says, “I would love to have a local group or community, but my parents are fasting now and that is huge support. Listening to the episodes, I started at the most current and went backwards and I'm currently down to Episode 108.” That would be fun, Melanie, listening to us backwards.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that’d stress me out.

Gin Stephens: I don't know. It's funny.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's funny. Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: “Someone left a question about fitting into jeans and one side of her body had a fat roll, the other did not. I definitely noticed this as well after about my second month fasting. I'm now a few months in and I have not noticed it as much, but it is still a bit different although very subtle. Just wanted you to know the other listener is not on her own. I love fasting and have lost 20 pounds since February 18th of 2021. I was a Weight Watcher lifetime member, I had maintained my weight for 15 years and suddenly when I turned 43, I gained 25 pounds and was unable to lose it. I am 54 and currently in the normal weight range about 135 and would like to still lose 10 pounds, but 130 was my goal when starting IF. I'm still a size 6 and know that my body probably could go down at least a size or two. I'm no longer super concerned about my weight. I recently went on vacation out of the country and felt more comfortable in a bathing suit than I have over the past several years. So, I would say I am a success already. Thanks again, Ginny.”

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, I love that email from Ginny. I think that's such a beautiful place to reach that-- I think a lot of people experience that where you might have a goal weight, especially with fasting and things like that, when you start feeling more and more comfortable in your skin, the numbers seem less important. Then, on the flip side, there are people that do experience that, but the number is more important. It's almost like the number is more important than what they're experiencing in their body. It's just really interesting.

Gin Stephens: A lot of that is undoing the years of-- for example, Ginny was a Weight Watcher, going to Weight Watchers meetings, I would guess, or maybe not going to them. But anyone who did go to meetings like that, there's a weigh-in, and it's number on the scale, and that is it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man, that would be so stressful.

Gin Stephens: Yes. I think it makes us get this emotional connection to a number that is more important than anything else, because that's what's drilled into your head. Again, like calories in, calories out gets drilled into your head, you are your number on the scale gets drilled into your head , and so you just get stuck with that. It's really hard to break free of that. That's the thing in all the communities that I've seen, the people who struggle, and it is so much tied up to our diet history. That's why I had to stop weighing and seeing a number because even though I had body recomposition, and I was smaller, I've told the story a million times, I started to get hung up on the number. That was ridiculous. I didn't want to be smaller. I wanted to see a smaller number. I'm like, “Well, that's dumb.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 100%. Ginny's experience with the uneven fat, that also speaks to the fact that almost the fact that calories aren't just calories, or weight loss isn't just weight loss. The fact that certain areas of our body might respond differently, just goes to show how much is not-- it's not just about the calories and what's in our mouth. Because I'm assuming the reason that we might have uneven fat loss would be completely based-- it must be like hormonal.

Gin Stephens: That is fascinating, that what if we all gained and lost irregularly? Wouldn't that be wacky? I don't mean just a little bit irregularly. What if you only gain weight in your right leg or something? It's a miracle that we stay fairly symmetrical at all, really. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: That's something I wonder, and that was something Gary talks about in The Case for Keto, which was the amount of fat cells we have, which I had never pondered before. Is it in the billions? I think so. Then, the concept that-- and I don't know if I so much agree with his theory about it, but he was saying that the amount of weight gain, the amount of technical calories that will lead to that would be-- I should pull out my notes. He says that an obese person may have 70 billion fat cells, each contains 0.6 millionth a gram of fat, which is the correlation of 1/5 millionth calorie of fat.

He says that, if you look at it from a calorie perspective, so with weight gain, fat tissue would have to hold on to 20 excess calories per day. That's the equivalent of 1/3 the billionth of a calorie per day her fat cell. I don't know if it goes down like that. Basically, this concept of just fat cells and calories and where they go and how much goes in and how much comes out, there's got to be something so many factors beyond the amount of calories that we put in our mouth.

Gin Stephens: Which is why it still shocks me, whenever I still come across something, where they're like it's only calories in, calories out, we all know that. I'll hear someone say that, and I'm like, “I can't believe someone still thinks that.” I really can't believe they haven't seen any evidence presented to them that makes them understand that it is more complicated than that.

Melanie Avalon: Simplistically, it is more calories went into your fat cells than calories--

Gin Stephens: That's true.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, to say it, and we talked about this with Gary, actually. I think where the confusion comes in is technically it is more calories went into your fat cells than calories came out of your fat cells, but that is no way even remotely the same thing as calories into your mouth versus equals or is related to calories out. It's just not. They're very similar phrases, but they're entirely different meanings.

Gin Stephens: Well, one of them implies that it is 100% in your control, and you could count them and manipulate it. The other understands that no matter how much you count and try to manipulate, you can't, because you're body's doing what it's doing. Those are the two, understanding that you really cannot micromanage your body that way, no matter how hard you try, is a little freeing, but also scary because it lets you realize that number one, it's not your fault, but number two, you can't just easily fix it by counting.

Melanie Avalon: Basically, to re-summarize what I was saying earlier, at least with Gary's hypothesis, if the type of calories you're eating are high carb, then that makes it easy for calories to go in if you have any sort of fat with that, but very, very hard for calories to come out. Compared to high fat, low carb in which calories can easily go in and out, depending.

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All right. Shall we move on to our questions?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. To start things off, this is a easy, breezy, simple question, but I realized, I don't know if we've actually, like, I don't know if anybody's actually asked this and we answered it. Kyla, the subject is “Clean versus dirty fast.” Kyla says, “Hi, Melanie and Gin. I have just started I have three weeks ago, and I'm surprised by the energy I have. I'm a nurse and I work 13-hour shifts, and I'm pleased with how I feel less exhausted already. Could you please discuss clean versus dirty fasting? I read these terms several times now and am unclear what they mean. Thank you for doing the podcast. I really enjoyed listening.”

Gin Stephens: Yep. That's a great question from Kyla. I want to be clear for me, this is just my own point of view. I feel you're either fasting clean or you're not really fasting. I don't think that dirty fasting really should be a thing. I don't think we should say, “Oh, I'm just dirty fasting.” At some point, you're just not actually fasting. I think you're either fasting clean or not really fasting. Anyway, I don't like the word ‘dirty fast’ at all. I don't like dirty in general. Like, eating dirty, fasting dirty, it sounds bad or wrong to me. That's just my own personal word feeling. Anyway, let's talk about what the clean fast is.

I talk about this in great detail in Fast. Feast. Repeat. so much detail that I have two whole chapters about it. If you want to read the whole ins and outs of the idea of clean fasting, find those two chapters in Fast. Feast. Repeat. Fun fact for anyone who doesn't know it, we actually coined the term ‘clean fast’ in the Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting support group, I believe it was in 2017, right around there, we started using the terminology ‘clean fast,’ and it's stuck. It really makes me proud to see that that's now kind of being used all over the place. The fact that we originated, it makes me proud.

Melanie Avalon: I have a quick question. Could you search through and find the first time that it was ever?

Gin Stephens: I think I did that one time.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know if you can rank it by date.

Gin Stephens: You could. Now there's been so many more posts, I don't really know, but it was after I wrote Delay, Don't Deny. We were not using the terminology clean fast when I wrote Delay, Don't Deny. I mean it's not in there. I didn't say clean fasting, because we hadn't started using it yet. But it was some point after that, it just stuck as a way of explaining, it just felt right. Like, you want your fast to be clean, like an actual fast. The three fasting goals really explain what a clean fast is all about. We have three goals for the clean fast. Number one, we want to lower our insulin levels, and that's what we were just talking about when Melanie was talking about Gary Taubes. Low insulin is what we want during the fast. We don't want to take in anything that makes your brain think that sweetener food, sugar, or glucose is on the way. That's why we avoid anything that tastes like food, or is sweet, because that sets off the cephalic phase insulin response and your body releases insulin. How much insulin, I think that's going to depend from person to person, so many factors. If we know we don't want our insulin to be up, we want to actively keep it down. So, avoid anything that sweet, fruity flavored, we don't put fruit in our water. Anything that tastes like food, avoid.

Fasting goal two is we want to tap into stored fat for fuel. We avoid taking in sources of energy, so we're not going to put MCT oil in our coffee, because if you do, your body is going to use that for fuel. It's an energy source. You want your body to tap into your stored fat, so don't put anything in your coffee at all. No fat, no cream, no creamer. You don't want to take in exogenous ketones either.

Our third fasting goal is, we'd like to experience increased autophagy. We know that if you take in protein that leads to autophagy, not being increased, it decreases autophagy. That's why we avoid things like bone broth. Think about all those things. Bone broth, cream, fat in our coffee, that's all food. And food is not fasting. That's why I always say the “dirty fast” isn't really fasting. You wouldn't eat a cheeseburger and say, “Oh, I just had a really dirty fast. It was extra dirty.” There's a line that you cross when it isn't fasting.

A lot of people throw around numbers. I don't know where they came up with these ideas. Like, if you have fewer than 50 calories, you're not breaking the fast. Well, what if I ate one bite of pizza? What if I had one Jellybean every 10 minutes? Am I fasting? No. [laughs] The safest bet is to not even have any of that. You know that you're fasting if you're fasting. You don't have to worry.

Melanie Avalon: What about non-caloric artificial sweeteners?

Gin Stephens: Well, that goes to fasting goal one that I talked about. You don't want anything that tastes sweet, because that causes your body to think that glucose is coming in, because our bodies don't understand zero-calorie diet soda, because in nature when our bodies have evolved to handle fruit or sugar, anything that tasted sweet had a glucose hit coming along with it. Our brain senses that sweetness coming in and says, “Ooh, got to get ready for a glucose hit. Our blood glucose is going to go up, we need some insulin.” We pump out some insulin to deal with that, but because it's a zero-calorie sweetener, the glucose doesn't come in because you're not really having any, and so that causes a lot of metabolic confusion, and the insulin goes up.

How much does it go up? That's a great question. A lot of it depends on your metabolic health. I have a blog post on ginstephens.com. It's like insulin response, why doesn’t everyone agree? Because sometimes people are like, “No, that's ridiculous. Your body does not do that.” You can find obviously studies that say that that is what happens. Although you can find studies that show that is not what happens. There's also some studies that I talk about in that blog post that says that people who are obese or overweight have a larger insulin response than other people.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's actually something that Gary talks about a lot in The Case for Keto, is people's individualized insulin responses, both to food and both to stimuli in the fasted state.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Even though we have studies that show insulin response after these stimuli, does that mean every single person alive has that exact same insulin response? No, but we know that is a potential, and if you're trying to lose weight, you don't want to have that potentially happening. We're all different. I think my husband has a very small insulin response to anything ever, because he's always been so lean, always. When we had our fasted insulin tested, his was lower than mine. Yeah, low insulin, hard to store fat.

If you know that low insulin is connected to so many health benefits, I don't know why you'd risk it. Maybe you're a lucky person that doesn't release much insulin in response to a diet soda, but what if you're not? [laughs] Hyperinsulinemia, having chronic high levels of insulin does more than just cause you to gain weight. Chad's aunt had early-onset Alzheimer's, and she was always really, really, really lean. But she always was drinking a regular Coke and having a candy bar. I'm sure she kept her insulin up all the time. They're calling Alzheimer’s type 3 diabetes now.

Melanie Avalon: I actually interviewed-- what's today? Yesterday or two days ago. I was so excited, I interviewed the codirectors of the Brain Health and Alzheimer’s Institute at Loma Linda, they're the authors of The Alzheimer's Solution.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I've seen that on Amazon.

Melanie Avalon: It was really exciting because they are very, very vegan. It's always really nice to bring on different viewpoints, because so many of my guests are very, very steeped in the low carb and keto world. So, it was nice to engage with them.

Gin Stephens: What did they say? Can you give us a little spoiler? Did they talk about insulin at all?

Melanie Avalon: We didn't talk about insulin, I don't think-- so they have what they believe are the four pathways to Alzheimer's. I learned so much about Alzheimer's. It's a very fascinating condition, because it's sort of like aging, there's not one identified root cause, because we know that beta amyloid formation and tau, “the problem,” but the question is what is causing that?

Gin Stephens: Did they talk about the glymphatic system and lack of sleep?

Melanie Avalon: They do in the book, we didn't on the show. The interesting thing about the beta amyloid and tau is that you can have that and not have Alzheimer's. It's not directly-- doesn't necessarily cause it. They think that there are four main pathways that lead to Alzheimer's. Number one is inflammation. Number two is oxidation. I'm going out of order because I'll say it. Number four is lipid dysregulation. Number three is glucose dysregulation/insulin resistance. Something fascinating, did you know that the enzyme that is responsible for degrading insulin. So, insulin degrading enzyme is also responsible for degrading tau protein, I think?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think I read this and that if you have too much insulin in your brain, it keeps the other from getting degraded.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. That's the theory of why the Alzheimer's would be called the type 3 diabetes because your insulin too high in your brain, causing the action of the other to not happen.

Melanie Avalon: It's partly that. It's also, I think, one of the main theories behind type 3 diabetes is that if insulin resistance occurs in the brain, then the brain cells literally are not getting fuel because they're insulin resistant. Oh, we did talk about that. It's coming back to me more. They made a very strong case that hands down the preferred sort, and we talked about this at length on the show. When it comes out, listeners, definitely check it out. They believe very firmly that glucose is the ideal and preferred source of fuel for the brain. A lot of people say that ketogenic diets are good for Alzheimer’s and that ketones are a better fuel source, especially for people with Alzheimer's, but they think that really glucose is what the brain should be using and that we don't have enough long-term studies on low carb or ketogenic diets to make a case for ketones.

Gin Stephens: That is a really good point. Just because the brain does function well ketones, doesn't mean it's the preferred source for the brain.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so that's what they believe very strongly. What was really nice is they were so open to-- because we talked about it a lot. They were so open to engaging in that dialogue. They knew that my audience tends to be low carb. I was really, really, really grateful for how the conversation unfurled. The thing we talked about with the low carb and keto diets was basically they think that-- so like I said, lipid dysregulation is their fourth thing. They think that high cholesterol and lipid dysregulation that high-fat diets are primarily the cause of that and the way to address that is a whole foods-- high carb, but from like starches and whole foods. So, they're very anti sugar, they have a whole section on sugar and how bad it is. I think they even say in the book that it's like the worst thing for Alzheimer's.

Gin Stephens: Well, you know that Chad's aunt, she was high sugar all the time. Never had a weight problem, skinny as a rail. But sugar, sugar, sugar, and then early-onset Alzheimer's.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it was a really good conversation. This is something I believe, and I think I've talked about a lot on this show, and I said it to them. My concerns with the low-carb diet and the keto diet for a lot of people, I think it's really, really amazing if you do it right and if you're strict about it as far as like being on a super high-fat diet. But I think people get very casual with it sometimes, so their carbs aren't quite low enough, or they flip in and out. So, they're in this state where they're often having a really high fat diet, and they might not be in the metabolic state to support having the health benefits from that. I think it can be potentially dangerous for a lot of people to experiment with a ketogenic diet if they're not doing it correctly.

Gin Stephens: Well, it goes back to what Marty Kendall says, energy toxicity. Too much energy in the blood from any source is not a good thing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. To clarify, I think that the safe approach to it is to not do a super high-fat ketogenic diet, which is more Marty Kendall’s approach and more my approach.

Gin Stephens: It's starting to become more-- in the community, I think the keto community is starting to be like, “Oh, okay. Yeah, maybe we don't need to pound the fat.”

Melanie Avalon: If you go low carb, but you don't crazy ramp up the fat, then I think it's a lot easier to get all the health benefits of low carb without the potential issues of going super high fat. I'm glad it's becoming more of a nuanced conversation.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because really, for so long, the number one thing people would say is, “Well, just eat more fat, add more fat.” No, no. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: The thing that they said was they were like-- and again, this is coming from them so it's hard to know exactly, but from what I've seen briefly, they were saying that the majority of the literature really does show that high lipids correlate to Alzheimer’s and all of these issues, because I know a lot of people in the keto world will have extremely high lipids and make the argument that there's no health problems there because of the ketogenic stay in the context of it, but it can potentially be an issue for people.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and only time will tell, like you said, we don't have the long-term data.

Melanie Avalon: Their names, it was Dr. Dean and Dr. Ayesha Sherzai. I think that's how you say it, and they wrote The Alzheimer Solution. Now what I want to do is, I really want to get Dale Bredesen who wrote the Alzheimer's-- what’s the other one? He's the low-carb guy who wrote the big Alzheimer's book.

Gin Stephens: No wonder everyone is confused.

Melanie Avalon: I know. What is his book? Because there's Alzheimer’s Solution, and then there's the Alzheimer-- wait, let me just look it up real quick.

Gin Stephens: I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so there's The Alzheimer Solution by the Sherzais, and then there's The End of Alzheimer's by Dr. Dale Bredesen. He approaches it from a low carb perspective. I've read that book, so I want to bring him on. I'm not trying to confuse people, I'm trying to give as much information as possible, so that people can make their own decisions.

Gin Stephens: Well, and I really think that probably if you go down to the root of almost every one of these approaches, it's like eat real food underlying it. It's the ultra-processed food, that's the problem. If we just got rid of ultra-processed food, maybe we could have our fat and our carbs together, and just be healthy. Don't eat all the time. Do intermittent fasting. Eat real food.

Melanie Avalon: Like Dr. Lustig’s book.

Gin Stephens: It's real food.

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All right, are we ready to go on to the next question? This is from April. April says, “Hello, my name is April and I'm newish to IF. I've been doing it off and on for about two months now. I have a question I'd love some input on. I've been listening to your IF stories for a while, I've listened to most of the episodes. I started fasting 16:8, opening my window at 11, closing at 7. I really wanted to have dinner with my family, so I figured that was the best window for me. I hate black coffee, so I was having coffee with just stevia and water or bubble water. Fasting was okay, but kind of miserable, wasn't really enjoying my coffee without almond milk and was watching the clock till I could eat. Once I would eat, I would crash.

Anyway, I learned about clean fasting, so I cut stevia and would only have plain water and plain coffee during my fast. Still hated fasting. It was a misery. I would still randomly crash after eating, and I would notice that when dinnertime rolled around, I wasn't even hungry because I would basically binge once my window was open.” Now, this is just me side note, since she's only been doing it off and on for about two months, I wonder if she gave herself time to adjust to the clean fast, because if you switch to clean fasting after not fasting clean, it might be amazing from the minute you start, but now you might not be. I would consider that day one and give yourself that 28 days to adjust. Unless she gave herself 28 days to adjust, I'm just throwing out there that that might be why it was still miserable, because the adjustment period can really be miserable. [laughs]

Anyway, all right. She said, “So, I had a thought, why not do a morning window and open it with my coffee the way I like it, so I switched. Window opens at 6:30 to 7 AM and closes eight hours later, huge change, fasting was suddenly easy and the scale began to move. Now, I'm excited to fast. My question is, it seems that most skip breakfast.” Then, she said she listened to a podcast episode that recommended skipping breakfast, but she says, “Why do I feel awful when I skip breakfast, but perfect when I have a morning window? Is there the same benefit either way, with a morning or evening window? By the way, I accidently tested it again today because I had a longer window yesterday. I waited till 11 for breakfast today and crashed, feel horrible. Thank you. By the way, stats. I'm not overweight, 138-ish at 5’6”. My goal is 130, and I'm fasting not just for weight loss, but that is a goal as well. Thanks for any insight you have. By the way, I know you're probably say just do what window works for you.” Yes, that is what I was going to say. “IF is flexible, but the questioning me wants to know why I seem to be the opposite of most IFers. April.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, April. This is a wonderful question. Now, okay, I wish we had saved this for next week because I think I'll have a lot more insight on it next week. I guess I can tease the information that I think I'm about to learn. Remember, Gin, when you were talking about The Power of When, the chronotypes, like the lion, dolphin, bear?

Gin Stephens: Yes. Yep.

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Breus.

Gin Stephens: Oh, are you interviewing him?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yay.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. We have a random mutual friend. He's not connected to this industry at all, but I was just catching up with him on the phone, and he was like, “Yeah, I'm friends with him. I'll introduce you.” I'm really excited. I was really familiar with his book, but I haven't actually read it. So, I'm reading it right now. It hadn't really occurred to me thinking about it from that perspective, but I think that explains a lot why some people respond better to early versus late eating windows.

Gin Stephens: We have different chronotypes.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, so I'm still reading it right now, but what I've learned thus far is the dolphin, which the dolphin is me, which, by the way, the dolphin is the insomniac type, all by itself. I thought I was the wolf, like the one that stays up really late. Anyway, but I'm going all over the place, I apologize. His chronotype takes into account not just circadian rhythm like sleep cycle, but also your personality, and basically everything. And they all go together, they're all connected. I haven't learned about the bear. I don't know if the bear eats breakfast. The wolf definitely doesn't like breakfast, neither does the dolphin. I don't think the bear does. But the lion is the one that gets up early and eats and fuels for the day, and then goes.

Gin Stephens: See, I'm a lion, and I don't do that.

Melanie Avalon: Have you taken the quiz?

Gin Stephens: I took his quiz. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It said you were a lion, not a bear?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it said I was a lion, because I wake up super early.

Melanie Avalon: True. Well, so much for that idea.

Gin Stephens: Who knows? We're all more complicated than just four types. Right?

Melanie Avalon: It seems that there is something intrinsic to our rhythms, like we have metabolic rhythms. I think some people's rhythms, like genetically, they just are breakfast people.

Gin Stephens: Yep, I have a good friend. She's one of the moderators in the Delay, Don’t Deny community, and she has a morning window, she feels better having a morning window. She just does it. I believe that that is the best window time for her. And I know it is not the best time for me, which is why I get so frustrated. I know, we've said this before, Melanie, when we hear the whole, everyone would be better if they had a morning window. There's that theory being tossed around based on an insulin response and glucose response and your metabolic whatever, whatever, and your circadian rhythm, they're calling it circadian fasting, I think, and that everyone should have their eating window at this certain time of the day. We're just not like that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 100%. He thinks we developed these rhythms, because as we evolved as a species, it had to do with different parts of the tribe needing to be awake at different times, so that the community was always safe. A tribe in the wilderness, everybody can't be asleep all at the same time.

Gin Stephens: So, it's a benefit for us to all have different rhythms.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because if everybody was asleep, all at the same time, the community would be unprotected. We naturally evolved to have people who were up early, like protecting, then people throughout the day, and then people at night, and then the dolphins that are just like waking up to everything.

Gin Stephens: Oh, maybe I'm a dolphin.

Melanie Avalon: You're not a dolphin, I don't think.

Gin Stephens: Oh, okay. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Do you have insomnia?

Gin Stephens: Well, more now, after menopause. I didn't used to.

Melanie Avalon: Well, so you can take the quiz. What's really funny though, is when you take it, so the very first thing at the beginning, identifies the dolphins. So, if you get dolphin, then you don't get to take the rest of the quiz because it categorizes you as dolphin.

Gin Stephens: Maybe I should take it again.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you should take and let me know. I'm dying to know. I took it and it was like dolphin. I was like, “But I really want to see if maybe I'm a wolf,” because I thought I was a wolf. So, then I took it again. I was like, “Okay, maybe I can answer these a different way.” Then I kept doing it. I literally had to take four times and every time it's like dolphin, dolphin, dolphin. Then, finally I was able to change my answers enough that it let me take the rest of the quiz.

Gin Stephens: I mean, I totally want to go to sleep at 9, 9:30 at night every night.

Melanie Avalon: You're not a dolphin.

Gin Stephens: Okay. I can't help it, and I cannot sleep late. I cannot.

Melanie Avalon: You're not a dolphin. [laughs] No, you're not. The dolphins are super groggy in the morning, takes a long time to get their energy out the day, and then randomly like, “9:00, whoa.”

Gin Stephens: I'm definitely not that. No, I'm not that. [laughs] I'm not a dolphin.

Melanie Avalon: He didn't make this connection, but I just read this and I'm making the connection in my head. He said the dolphins are the only chronotype where all of their rhythms, like their blood pressure, their body temperature, all of that is inversed, so that all goes up at night. Maybe that explains why I want all my food. I eat really well, like really late, so I'm excited to keep reading it. There's personality too.

Gin Stephens: I would say about April, it totally could be the morning window is when her body is primed to eat and that's the better time to eat. That totally could be it. I'm still not completely sure that she's adjusted to fasting. I just don't know, she's only about two months in, she's been doing it off and on for two months. She may not be fat adapted. April, if you're not fat adapted, you really can't judge how you feel yet because you're not there. That's the thing. It depends on when you started the clean fast, and whether you're fat adapted yet. If you've been doing it for a while and you are fat adapted and you 100% feel better when you eat in the morning, then that is definitely a clue that that's your good window time. Your body really does tell you.

Melanie Avalon: Even when I wasn't fat adapted, I was never a morning eater. I was never hungry at breakfast.

Gin Stephens: Well, I ate breakfast because I enjoy the recreation of eating, and I enjoy eating breakfast and they told you to eat breakfast, but I did realize earlier on that I was hungrier when I did eat breakfast than if I waited.

Melanie Avalon: Me too.

Gin Stephens: I didn't know that was true, for me, but that didn't stop me from eating. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That’s the way I was.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I loved having breakfast eat out. It was not a good breakfast either, I was having like drive-thru breakfast. Oh, Lordy.

Melanie Avalon: It could be that she's not fat adapted, but I feel maybe intrinsically, she's just a breakfast eater.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it could be either of those. I can't say it's one or the other. It absolutely might be that she's a morning person, but it might not be it might just be not fat adapted yet. I just really would be hesitant for anybody to judge what intermittent fasting is going to be prior to when you're adapted because your body's lying to you turn into [laughs] adaptation phase.

Melanie Avalon: Good point. We have time for one last question, and this is from Jan. Jan says, “I'm sure I'm not the only one who struggles with this. For the most part, I am comfortable doing 16:8 fast regularly. However, when I am at work and come 11, 12, 1 PM, I just want to eat. It's more like an inner clock. I am not really hungry, but I feel like I have to eat. I'm not sure how to move beyond that point. Any suggestions? I enjoy your podcasts and the guests you have on. Thank you.”

Gin Stephens: All right, well, thank you, Jan. Here's the thing, if what you're doing is working, and you're eating at 11, 12, 1, and it feels right, and you're happy and you're getting the results you want, then you don't need to move beyond that point. You're fasting and if you're doing 16:8, and you feel good with 16:8, you're comfortable doing 16:8, it's working for you, then it's okay. We sometimes get into our heads that you should want to fast more necessarily, or you want to push your window up just to be doing it, but if what you're doing feels right, then it's okay. It's okay to open your window at noon. Even if you're not like super-duper hungry. Maybe this is your body's sweet spot, maybe if you waited till 4, you would binge. I don't know. If however, you're not getting the results you want, if you feel like, “Every day, I'm opening at 11, 12, 1, and I'm not even hungry and I don't even need to eat and I'm not getting the results I want,” that's when you need to have like a conversation with yourself and say, “Okay, am I going to choose to eat because I want to eat? Or, am I going to choose to not eat and then see if I can meet my goals by delaying my eating window?” You've just got to decide which you want to do, which might be easier said than done. I get it.

As I just said a couple minutes ago when we were talking about breakfast. Eating is a lot more than just taking in nutrients. It's recreational, it's something that we enjoy, it's pleasurable. It's a break from what we were doing, you take a break to eat and it feels like a nice rest. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well. It's a routine, it feels nice. So, you just have to decide, “Is what I'm doing right now working for me?” And if so, it's okay to eat at that point if that's when I want to eat. But if what I'm doing is not working for me, how can I flip that switch and tell myself, “You know what, you just want to eat, you don't need to eat, find something else to do, get busy. Maybe have a special beverage, have your San Pellegrino mineral water that you have every day at that time to make it your special instead of like you have to eat, now you're going to have your special San Pellegrino. I don't know, what do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: That was really great. I hadn't really thought about this way before, but when it comes to food, and then perception of hunger, perception of appetite, all these things, people experience things all over the spectrum. A lot of people who write to us, it's the opposite of Jan's what she's experiencing as a potential issue. A lot of people feel they're ravenously hungry, when they're not supposed to be eating, but then some people like Jan, it's when they're “decided to eat” but they're not hungry. The nice thing about fasting is, in a way, you don't even have to worry about all of that because what you can do is you-- and this ties into what you just said, Gin, as far as if it's working or not. You can pick your window, commit to it, try it out, trial run it, regardless of feeling hungry or not feeling hungry. Just trying out that window and then seeing if that window is working, rather than having to focus and fixate on your relationship with food and if you're hungry, or if you're not hungry. It's just picking the window and just resting on the confidence of trying out this window, and then seeing if it works. Does that make sense? It's a different place to focus. You don't have to overanalyze so much the hunger or the lack of hunger, because you're trying out the window. I think it's exactly what you said, Gin. If she's doing this window, and but she's happy with her energy and her body composition and everything, then maybe it's completely fine that she's eating the way she's eating. I like what you said.

Gin Stephens: Well, good. Yeah, it just depends. It might not be a problem. Sometimes, we identify things as problems, because we think they are based on what somebody said, for example. We've all heard, “Never eat if you're not really hungry.” Well, we all “fail” when it comes to that. We all eat when we're not truly hungry.

Melanie Avalon: Hunger is a spectrum. One person's hunger may not even register as another person's hunger. It's so subjective.

Gin Stephens: One of the saddest sayings, I don't remember exactly how it's said. One of the saddest mindsets to me of all is the one that you see where it's like, “Food is not entertainment, it is just to fuel your body.” I'm like that is depressing, because a food is supposed to be a pleasure. That would be like saying, “Activities with your spouse are only designed to procreate, and you're not allowed to enjoy it.” You know what I'm saying? It's one of those puritanical mindsets of, “Well, enjoying it is a sin, so stop enjoying it.” You can enjoy all the physical pleasures, and that includes food. I got a little racy, sorry.

Melanie Avalon: No, I was thinking, “I feel like this is like the most-- Ooh.” [laughs] What am I going to say? Hmm.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] I see, I was an elementary teacher, I can't be too racy. I can't say certain things because I was trying not to say anything like that, anyway.

Melanie Avalon: No, you said that really well. That would go over kids’ heads, I think, I don't know. The one slight caveat I would add is, I think some people-- if there are people who struggle with what they perceive as food addiction, sometimes they feel very free and embracing a food as fuel rather than pleasure standpoint. If that's working for you to view food that way, I don't want to discourage people from doing that. In general, I agree that food is meant to be enjoyed.

Gin Stephens: It's meant to be enjoyed. Yeah, but you can even enjoy-- That mindset makes it sound the only thing you enjoy is garbage food. But you can enjoy a brussels sprout. You can enjoy a healthy food, you can enjoy a tomato. I made some beans yesterday in my pressure cooker. Oh my gosh, they were so good. That was pleasure, eating these beans. It wasn't like I was eating chocolate cake. Assuming that pleasurable food has to equate “bad food.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. I thought that was a really great note to end on.

Gin Stephens: Awesome. Yeah, me too.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode216, you can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. And you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens, on Instagram, we're @ifpodcast. Can’t remember that. All right. Anything else from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: Nope, that's it.

Melanie Avalon: Right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 215 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, are you struggling to lose weight despite fasting clean? Maybe you're even making healthy food choices, fasting more, shortening your eating window, ramping up your exercise, and yet the weight won't budge? Well, we actually just found a major reason for why that may be. As it turns out, there are compounds in our environment called endocrine disruptors, meaning they mess with your hormones. Studies show that a lot of these endocrine disruptors are actually obesogens, meaning they literally make you gain weight. They also make it hard to lose weight. These toxic obesogens are naturally stored in fat, so when they enter your body, your body creates fat to store them in to protect you. Once they're in that fat, they then change the genes in your fat stores, so that you are more likely to store more fat and less likely to burn it. They can also affect your insulin signaling and boost your appetite, so you want to eat more and store more fat.

Most of us are actually exposed to these obesogenic endocrine disruptors daily in our skincare and makeup, that is actually one of the largest sources of these compounds. Yep. As it turns out, when you're washing your face, putting on makeup, using lotion, or even putting on sunscreen, you are likely putting 1 up to 1300 compounds banned in Europe for their toxicity and obesity-causing potential but they're completely fine for use in US skincare. When you put them on your skin, you're making it that much harder to burn fat, and that much easier to store fat. So, if you're struggling to lose weight, you definitely, definitely want to clean up your skincare ASAP.

You can do that easily with a company called Beautycounter. They make safe skincare and makeup products that are extensively tested to be free of endocrine disrupters, obesogens, and other toxic compounds. They're truly safe and supportive of your health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. If you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd also like exclusive discounts, giveaways, and the latest on the science of skincare, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. So, are you fasting clean inside and out? Well, now you can. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 215 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: And I'm dying, listeners, because I just forgot the intro. [laughs] It took 215 episodes for me to forget what I say in the beginning. 215. How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I have some very exciting news.

Melanie Avalon: What is that?

Gin Stephens: Well, I can finally announce the name of my new book, officially, because it's actually on Amazon already for preorder, which is crazy how that happens. It happened like that with Fast. Feast. Repeat. Like one day, they were still kind of hush-hush and the next day there it was. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's really exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is exciting. The name of my new book is Clean(ish) and the subtitle is Eat (Mostly) Clean, Live (Mainly) Clean, and Unlock Your Body's Natural Ability to Self-Clean, and the subtitle is still a work in progress because I had a meeting with the whole team from St. Martin's last week and they're like, “Well, we're still fine tuning it.” In fact, if you go to Amazon and find it, the subtitle is wrong on Amazon. They have the old one that I was like, “No, this is not a subtitle [laughs] we're going to use.” [laughs] Because this is not a diet book. It's not a follow this diet and you will lose a lot of weight. This is a healthy way to live kind of a book, so I don't want it to sound diety in the subtitle. It's hard to find. You know how Amazon until it's been searched a bunch of times--

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so it doesn't have a picture yet.

Gin Stephens: Well, it actually does, if you go to--

Melanie Avalon: I think they took it down.

Gin Stephens: Did they? It was up there earlier today. If you click on the paperback version, the picture was showing.

Melanie Avalon: Oh yes, my bad.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. If you click on the paperback version, you can see the working cover, and sometimes those change over time. This is the cover we're working with right now and I love it. Hopefully, it'll still be there when people look for it. I had a hard time finding it searching by name, but did you just search for the name and it came up?

Melanie Avalon: I searched for the name, it didn't come up. I searched for the name and your name it didn't come up. Then, I went to Fast. Feast. Repeat.

Gin Stephens: The author page. Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and then I went to your author.

Gin Stephens: If you go to my author page, if you go through one of my other books and click on my name, Gin Stephens, and go to the official Amazon author page, it shows up there. Although yesterday there was some kind of bug on Amazon and the author page wasn't working. It looked crazy and it didn't have my books there. I'm like, “What's happening?” It had like those weird spiral version of Delay, Don’t Deny, that some enterprising person, bless their heart, has created. They bought Delay, Don’t Deny paperback, took it somewhere, had spiral added, and now they're selling it on the Amazon, you can buy a spiral version. I mean, I have no problem with it, because they actually bought it, [chuckles] they bought it, so they're reselling it.

Melanie Avalon: How do you know that they're reselling yours?

Gin Stephens: Because I bought one. With the way that Amazon works, because my book is print on demand, they have like a special code and everyone like a unique number. So, I can tell. Anyway, so people are like, “What is this special spiral version?” I'm like, some enterprising seller, who wants people to have a spiral version.”

Melanie Avalon: That's funny.

Gin Stephens: Everyone they sell is a sale for me because they bought it already. They're reselling it. It's like the person who's buying their version from them could have just bought mine, but they bought theirs, because they had already bought mine, it's not costing me a sale. I don't mind if they want to do that. Yeah, go for it. It's the fake versions I don't like, but this is-- anyway, but that was the only thing showing up, like Fast. Feast. Repeat. wasn't showing up. Only the spiral version, Delay, Don’t Deny wasn't showing up. I'm like, “What's happening?” The search was not even working. I couldn't even search for Delay, Don’t Deny and have it come up. I in a panic called Amazon Author Central, and I was like, “What's happening?” They're like, “It's a bug, it's happening to a lot of people. It's not just you, we're fixing it.” I'm like, “Okay, phew.”

Melanie Avalon: We'll make it easy for listeners, and we'll put a link in the show notes directly to the book.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, I'm so excited just to have it out there. The word Clean(ish) with that ish in parentheses is really people that know me, they know that's very much how I live. I talk throughout the book about my whole journey to becoming more cleanish. I think listeners have even heard my evolution over time, because it's really the more you learn, the more you realize it's important to make changes, and I go through the whole explanation of why. Why is 2021 different than 1921? Why is it a different time? Why do we have to be more careful? It's basically chemicals are everywhere in a different kind of way. So, our bodies are having to manage something they've never had to manage before.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: And we're not able to do it. Well, that's why it's really important to really be careful of what you're putting in. Your body's great at taking things out. I talk about the body's natural self-cleaning abilities. One of the tools is, of course, intermittent fasting. This is not an intermittent fasting book, however. I want it to be something that appeals to people who are like, “Yeah, I'm never going to do intermittent fasting.” It was hard for me to talk my publisher into not having it be an intermittent fasting book, because a lot of people would not pick it up. People don't all want to do intermittent fasting.

Now, I'm going to sneaky talk them into it after they read Clean(ish). [laughs] They don't even know they want to do intermittent fasting. All the people in the world who want to improve their health, don't all necessarily want to do intermittent fasting, of course, yet. [laughs] I want to appeal to a lot of people and then obviously bring them into intermittent fasting, but this is something for an intermittent faster, who wants to just fine tune and live a healthier life. It's like my switch to Beautycounter and your switch to Beautycounter. I've switched all my cleaning products. Yesterday, I changed out my pans in my kitchen. I was hanging on to a few nonstick pans--

Melanie Avalon: You're like me. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm clean(ish). [laughs] We went out to eat last night and we had fried food. Oh, my gosh, it was so good. We went with some friends of ours and there were these grits fritters in a tempura batter, and I'm sure there were fried in some terrible oil. Because I'm clean-ish, I don't cook like that at home, I could enjoy them and then come home tonight and have my organic Green Chef [laughs] and that is okay.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it reminds me a few days ago, I interviewed Dr. Robert Lustig.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. He's been popping up everywhere since his new book came out.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, he's incredible. Oh, and he mentioned in our conversation, Dr. Ludwig, and I wanted to be like, [laughs] “My cohost thinks you and him are the same person, combines your name.”

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I still don't know who is which. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: What did you call him Mr.--? [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I don't know, Lustwig.

Melanie Avalon: Lustwig, you combined it. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I don't know, they're too similar. The names are too similar.

Melanie Avalon: One of the things that I thought about a conversation we had had on this show was, we were talking about processed food, and he talked about the NOVA classification of food and the four classifications. He was saying that it's only the fourth category that's linked to health issues, but it's linked to basically all the health issues.

Gin Stephens: All of them, I talk about that even more in Clean(ish). The thing I love about Clean(ish) that I'm so proud of-- by the way, my editor has started reading it, since she's had it now in her possession for over a week, and she loves it, which is very exciting. She's loving it, but it's an actionable book. The reader, I'm not just going to tell you, these are the things to avoid, this is what you do, this is what you eat. The reader creates their own definition. After I explain and go through the framework, everyone creates their own definition of what it means to them to eat mostly clean, and what it means to live mainly clean.

Melanie Avalon: What about the people like me that want to live?

Gin Stephens: Well, you're free to create your own definition.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.

Gin Stephens: That's based on what resonates with you. We don't want to be so extreme we can't live in the world because that can be dangerous. When you read about “clean eating,” there's a lot of people who really criticize it as leading to unrealistic expectations, and also even eating disorders. You'll hear that critique tossed around a lot. I wanted to say, “Why is it okay to work towards eating in a way that's healthy and when does it become a problem so that people can decide for themselves?” But I really want people, instead of me saying, “Here's what you do, and here's what you don't do,” it's like, “Here's some concerns. Here's some things. Here's why we're worried about artificial sweeteners.” Then, you get to decide-- I didn't use this wording in my book, but anyone who's familiar with Beautycounter, they have the never list. These are things they will never put in their products. Creating your own definition, it's like your own personal never list. Again, I don't call it that in the book, but these are things I'm never going to do.

I don't do artificial sweeteners. In my definition of cleanish, I can see zero benefit to me having an artificial sweetener. There's no time that I ever need to have that. If the only kind of soda available was diet soda, I wouldn't drink the soda. But last night, I wanted to eat those delicious grits cakes, and the fact that they were fried in a restaurant oil was not a dealbreaker. Here at home, I'm never going to use those oils. It's like you just decide where's your line. Here's the evidence, you decide where your line is. That's what it means to live cleanish. It really inspired me, the more I learned that I got rid of a lot of stuff in my house.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's incredible. For me, I guess, like the line when I go to restaurants is, I make sure that they don't use any of the oils.

Gin Stephens: Right, because you've got that on your never list.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Very cool.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, I really am proud of this book. As I said, my editor is really, really fond of it although she's now working on the editorial revisions, which makes me nervous. [laughs] I have a lot of parts like after every chapter, I want you to pause and reflect and take action so that you're not just reading it. After every chapter, you do something. That's the teacher in me. She's like, “There's a lot of that.” I'm like, “Yeah, I know that, but it's really important. It's really important.” So, we'll see what happens. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Well, very exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is so exciting. I'm just glad. The other day, I sat in the front yard, Melanie, and I read a book and it was fiction, like a fiction book.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing.

Gin Stephens: My neighbor walked by and she was walking her dog and I was like, “I'm reading a book.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I love it.

Gin Stephens: I know it feels amazing. Anyway, although it's very tight turnaround because we would talk to the team the other day, the team at St. Martin's, the galleys are going to be out July 29th, which is like around the corner.

Melanie Avalon: Can I get one?

Gin Stephens: Oh yeah, I'll make sure you get on the galley list. Yeah, July 29th. By the time this episode comes out, I see the date here, it's the end of May, so that's two months. We have to do all the copy editing, and all of the editorial changes really quickly. Then, the on-sale date is January 4th, which I think is really a great time because it's the New Year, people have goals, the New Year's a good time to really work on becoming cleanish, but it's not a fast process. It might take you a year, and that's okay. I'm going to have a book study and work through it with readers once it comes out.

Melanie Avalon: Very nice.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm really excited about that too.

Melanie Avalon: Again, for listeners, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode215. We will put a link directly to the book there.

Gin Stephens: That’s so exciting. I'm also going to be working on in between now and probably by the time this episode comes out, I'll have it, ginstephens.com/cleanish. When we're writing cleanish, like that it's going to be all one word, no punctuation, you can't have the punctuation in there on the web address. I don't know, could you? We're not going to but ginstephens.com/cleanish as one word.

Melanie Avalon: And that will direct--?

Gin Stephens: St. Martin's is working on all the preorder--

Melanie Avalon: The landing page.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, a landing page. Exactly. It's going to have the landing page for everything. I'm also going to include links. I'll go ahead and pop Beautycounter on there, because that's who I endorse, for clean beauty, and you too, because I'm convinced. Honestly, you were like, “You’re going to like it.” I'm like, “Yeah, yeah, whatever. I'll try.” Then, I really liked the product. Okay, so liking the products is what convinced me. I'm like, “Melanie thinks this is important. I like the products. They're good products. I'm going to do it.” But when I really started digging into the research, I was like, “Oh, my gosh.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Cannot be putting this on my skin anymore.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And I'm like, “Chad. Let’s make some changes, Chad.”

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's why Beautycounter is so amazing, because not only were they founded on that mission-- like the creator, Gregg, she did it because of realizing the role of endocrine disruptors in fertility issues and miscarriages. Their purpose is removing chemicals. I think their goal with that was to make products that actually work. The products are just amazing.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. They have to work, or I don't want to use them.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, like I started it just for the makeup because I was like, “I'll just use like a steel soap.” I don't really use face products. Ironically, I started using the makeup, I started seeing all the feedback from my audience about their obsession with all the skincare products. I was like, “Oh, maybe I should try these products after all. Now, I'm sold on everything.

Gin Stephens: It's true. it really is just good stuff. The whole premise of Clean(ish) is put lesson, like I said, and let your body work to take out what it needs to take out. Our bodies are great at doing detox, naturally, but we have to support that. Also, the role of food. Food is really important in how our bodies clean, believe it or not, I know you believe it. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Our link for Beautycounter, is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. Can I talk about one thing that I talked about with Dr. Lustig that related to fasting or it's about fasting?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I don't know if this is correct. I mean, I'm sure it's correct. It came straight from him, but I kept asking him more questions about it. He thinks that basically the main issue with-- I don't know if it's the main issue-- Oh, his book, by the way, is called Metabolical. I cannot recommend it enough. It's one of the most mind-blowing things I've ever read. It talks about everything we just talked about.

Gin Stephens: Is it mostly about the ultraprocessed food?

Melanie Avalon: It's more about the food industry. Yeah. it's about the food industry, Big Pharma, the medical system, government.

Gin Stephens: Because I've got some stuff about the food system in Clean(ish).

Melanie Avalon: His chapter on food fraud blew my mind.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, it's not about food fraud. I don't have any of that. Well, I'm looking forward to reading it.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, I always make notes to prep for the show. I think this is probably out of the 100 episodes I've done, probably in the top three for like the most notes that I had leading up to it.

Gin Stephens: Give me an example of the food fraud.

Melanie Avalon: The one everybody knows is like olive oil. I think he said like 60% of olive oil-- I might be incorrect with that stat. It was some huge stat of olive oil that says it is extra virgin or Italian is neither extra virgin or Italian. The food fraud in the fish industry is insane. And it makes me sad because I think a lot of people watched that Seaspiracy documentary on Netflix, and they think they shouldn't eat fish. That's not the solution, I don't think. I think the solution is addressing the issue, so having transparency, vetting your sources. That's why I love ButcherBox because they go to great lengths with the traceability and transparency.

Literally, he talks about the fish industry. Basically, they just lie. They just lie. The fish at the supermarket may or may not be the fish that it says it is. He said it's more of a problem in restaurants. He talks about the fish that often gets swapped out. I think it's like snapper and tilapia or something, or cod. I don't know, they switch out fish. Some of the other stuff was-- oh, the honey industry is just crazy. It's a ton of fraud. They didn't really start regulating it until two things happened, like two big events. One was that when something happened in Asia, and some sort of compound got into the milk, and it actually filtered its way over to the US because it was so pervasive. Then, the second one was, apparently there was some sort of meat thing that happened, I think it was in the 2000s, when a large portion of meat that was getting exported to the US was actually-- it was labeled as beef, but it was actually horse.

Gin Stephens: I remember that. I don't know if it was happening a lot in the United States, but I think it was in Europe, right?

Melanie Avalon: It was in Europe.

Gin Stephens: But it also happened in the United States?

Melanie Avalon: It was in Europe, but some of that got exported to the US.

Gin Stephens: Oh Lord. I know that, for example, it was like Ikea meatballs, or horse or something. I remember that. I was like, “Okay, note to self.”

Melanie Avalon: So, that's when they started looking closer at food fraud as far as regulation goes, but in the processed food industry, there's just a lot of fraud with just the ingredients, and it's shocking. It's really shocking.

Gin Stephens: The supplement industry. I talked a little bit about the supplement industry as well in my Clean(ish), the supplements are often not what they say they are and they can even put dangerous things in there, prescription drugs are in a supplement that are supposed to be like something else, like ginkgo biloba, and it's not ginkgo biloba, it's something completely different. Can you imagine all the interactions you might have? That's why it's so important to carefully vet any supplements you're taking, and only use companies that you trust completely.

Melanie Avalon: There's food fraud with cheese, where they were adding cellulose to it. This was in the US. Some of the cheese didn't even have any cheese in it.

Gin Stephens: That's crazy.

Melanie Avalon: I know. the different types are dilution. Like the virgin olive oil, diluting it with other things substitution. Substituting fish for other fish. Tilapia usually is often substituted for snapper, intentionally contaminating or concealing, so that was melamine that was in milk, and then cheese and cellulose. Country of origin is often incorrect. Counterfeiting, they just make stuff up. He said, actually, organic is usually the main target of fraudsters, because there's more money in it. That's concerning.

Gin Stephens: Ah. Well, that makes it even harder, because you're trying-- I talk in Clean(ish) about the different labels that you can trust. [laughs] I guess if they're lying about it-- but the certified organic label is a label you can trust, if it has really been certified.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. So, they generally recognized as safe list, which is the FDA’s list of things that are generally recognized as safe.

Gin Stephens: Like food coloring, for example. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Then, it's things that you can put into cosmetics or food. Well, it's privatized, so that means the government-- like the FDA doesn't even really know what's on it. Private companies can just add to it, and it's super easy to add things. All you have to do is basically hire a science community thing-- It's like super easy to get compounds on the list. It's ridiculously hard to take compounds off. So, only two compounds have been taken off, nitrates and trans fats.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, Europe does a much better job of monitoring these types of chemicals than we do. My research was just fascinating. The more I learned, the more I was like, “Wow.” A lot of it is reminiscent of the tobacco industry.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. He talks a lot about that.

Gin Stephens: Does he?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. The question I asked him though was, so he thinks that it really all goes back to the liver. When the liver fills up with fat, that's what's creating the metabolic issues, but he said that-- and that fat is created from carbs, usually. Excess carbs turning into fat in the liver, and I asked him, but to what extent does-- because we talk a lot on the show about how the carb to fat conversion, you don't convert a lot of carbs to fat. He was saying that-- and I don't know if he actually clarified it, if we actually nailed it down, but it sounds like the liver fills up with fat, but then beyond that, I don't really think that carbs are creating substantial amounts of body fat. It’s that the liver fills up with fat and then you're just become more, more insulin resistant and you're storing more fat from your just your diet in general, like the fat in your diet. He said when you're fasting, the fasting depletes liver fat before it depletes liver glycogen.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's not surprising, I guess. That makes sense to me.

Melanie Avalon: Every day.

Gin Stephens: That's interesting. That makes me think of my friend, Roxi. I interviewed her for Intermittent Fasting Stories. She's a longtime moderator in my community, and she's also active on the Delay, Don't Deny Social Network. When she started intermittent fasting, she had a fatty liver. She didn't lose any weight for a long, long time with intermittent fasting, but she completely reversed her fatty liver.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. The thing I was wondering, do you think on a daily cyclical basis, and I asked him this, and he said, “Yes.”

Gin Stephens: Well, here's the thing, though. Here's my question to this, Melanie. This is why I'm not sure that that's true. When we're fasting, our bodies do need to keep our blood glucose in this range. I think our liver would release glycogen while we're fasting for that purpose. It's not just only because if you dump out the fat, you're not going to be-- your body wouldn't release fat and then turn that into glucose. I don't think that your body's not going to release some glycogen from your liver during the fast just because you have a fatty liver.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think anybody would deplete the liver fat in your daily fast. I imagine you're tapping into the glycogen as well.

Gin Stephens: Daily. Yeah. Maybe he's saying that you're going to tap into your liver fat and use that before your body fat.

Melanie Avalon: No. I asked him. He was saying before the glycogen.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't think that's true.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “I'm sorry, I keep asking about this.” I was like, “But to clarify.” [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I'm not a medical doctor. Based on everything I know, and how the liver releases glycogen and keeps your blood sugar in that range-- we see it when you drink coffee and your liver dumps the glycogen, your blood sugar goes up. I've seen-- of course, I don't have a fatty liver, but I don't know, I can't imagine that your body would not release an iota of glycogen from your liver.

Melanie Avalon: I think he did say that they both are sort of happening but he said for sure that the fat is going first. I don't know. It was an amazing conversation, though. It won't be out by the time this comes out.

Gin Stephens: It makes me want to read his book, but right now, I'm just going to read fiction. Just going to read fiction for a while because my brain needs to have fiction in it. [laughs] My brain is tired.

Melanie Avalon: While I'm working on my notes, I play movies, that's how I get my fiction in.

Gin Stephens: Well, I love to read. I haven't read fiction because even before I started writing Clean(ish), I was reading about the topics because I had it in my mind. I've just been science, science. Now, I'm like, “I just want to read.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Can I share one more thing?

Gin Stephens: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: I know we haven't even answered any listener questions yet. But just really quickly, yesterday, I did a Facebook Live thing with Marty Kendall.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I saw that you were going to do that. On Instagram maybe you had posted it. Did you post it on Instagram? I saw it somewhere.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, that was really, really amazing. I love him so much.

Gin Stephens: He's great.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, he's fantastic. For listeners, he wrote Big Fat Keto Lies, and really just dismantles a lot of the lies in the keto community. He was interviewing me, it wasn't me interviewing him, and we were doing it on biohacking, and it made me think, because he asked me a lot of his questions had to do with what are the main-- out of all the biohacking things, what are the things that are non-negotiables in my life? With biohacking fatigue, how do you know, out of all the things, what to get, and all of that. It really made me realize the things that really are non-negotiables in my life, every single day. Do you use the blue light blocking glasses?

Gin Stephens: I do. I do use them. Again, when I was writing Clean(ish), I have a chapter on other tools for self-cleaning. I know that that blue light is not technically a dirty chemical coming in, but it is in a way dirty, you know what I'm saying? [laughs] So, you can clean up by wearing your blue light blocking glasses.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because people often ask me, if you had to pick just one thing in the biohacking world. It's really hard because there's so many things that I benefit from, but honestly, those are the things that I use every single night of my life. My whole experience of my energy and my sleep would just be profoundly different if I didn't have them in my life.

Gin Stephens: Sleep is such an important mechanism for self-cleaning, because I mean, our audience knows about autophagy and how that works during the fast. The glymphatic system, which is not the same as the lymphatic system, it has a G in front of it. The glymphatic system is our brains self-cleaning mechanism that happens while we're sleeping. Your brain has to have that self-cleaning time, so you have to get into a good sleep. That's again where the blue light blocking fits in. Anything that is disturbing your sleep is a problem because your brain cannot self-clean if you're not getting sufficient sleep, cannot.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. When we have our lights on at night, it basically just stops our melatonin production.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, the blue light is what we have in the middle of the day. That's our body's signal that it's the middle of the day, and we should be alert. Blue light makes us alert. That's its purpose.

Melanie Avalon: BLUblox makes three different types. They make clear computer glasses, if you're staring at screens all day. Those still let in blue light, but they're blocking some of it to mitigate computer screens, and then they have their SummerGlo. So, they're yellow tinged ones. I put those on as the sun is winding down. Those are incredible. They also have a certain yellow spectrum, the actual yellow color they use has been shown to boost mood. Then, they have their Sleep+ lens. Those are the ones that block all of the blue light, and I put those on right before bed. It's just a profound difference. If I ever accidentally take them off at night, I'm like, “Oh.”

Gin Stephens: I know. It's like the light is blinding. You're like, “What is this crazy light shining?” Yeah, it's true.

Melanie Avalon: I think it's hard, like I said, but I think if I had to pick one thing in my daily life that I think would benefit most people, it might be that.

Gin Stephens: Well, just the sleep connection is so powerful. If you're struggling with sleep, that's one thing to think about. Again, this is what I was talking about how our modern life is so different. They didn't have this problem back in 1921.

Melanie Avalon: Right, exactly.

Gin Stephens: Here we are having these problems, and we're so sick and unhealthy as a society, and it's getting worse and worse and worse. People are gaining more and more weight and having more and more autoimmune diseases. There's not just one thing that you can put your finger on, it's like, “Oh, it's this.” No, it's everything piling up. Lowering your load, your toxic load, lowering, doing the best you can because you're going to have exposure. Babies are born with chemicals in their cord blood. There was something that came out, someone sent me an article this week. They tested breast milk and 100% of the breast milk had, I can't remember what chemical they found in it, 100%.

Melanie Avalon: I know, it's so pervasive. When a woman gives birth, it's like a detox, like a lot of those chemicals go through the placenta into the newborn.

Gin Stephens: It's true. We have to be so careful with what we're putting in because some things you're just exposed to living your life, you cannot help it, it's out there. Back 50 years ago, your body could maybe handle a little bit more. Now, we're so saturated, that we have to be more careful. Not to scare people, I don't want people to be afraid because you really can take powerful steps. Just change your skincare, change what you're cleaning with, and then so much less is going to be coming in.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. For listeners, if you'd like to get blue light blocking glasses, like I do, and Gin does, our link is blublox.com. They spell it B-L-U-B-L-O-X dotcom. The coupon code, IFPODCAST, actually gets you 15% off, which is super awesome. Something else I love that they do is for every pair of glasses you buy, they donate a pair of reading glasses to someone in need. That's really exciting.

Gin Stephens: Yep, that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Shall we answer some questions for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, but we talked about lots of important stuff. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I love it.

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Anais. the subject is “A few questions for you.” She says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. In a previous episode, you talked about how fasted exercise helps you grow muscle, but I also heard you say that exercise can help lower your blood sugar levels. I am close to the pre-diabetic range, I wondered if it would be more interesting for me to work out shortly after eating to help lower my blood sugar levels, or if it would still be best to work out as far in my fast as possible.” Let's just take these one by one.

Melanie Avalon: I thought this was a great question. It's something I've thought about as well. Yes, exactly what she said. It depends also as well what type of exercise you're doing, but generally exercise in a fasted state, especially when you're deep into the fat burning, that's going to really capitalize on that and help you burn more body fat. Because especially in the fasted state, regulating your blood sugar levels for a lot of people, they're going to be more stable anyways, so that's not really the thing you're addressing as much. Compared to exercising after eating, for example, that can really help with lowering blood sugar levels, especially if you get spikes after meals.

Gin Stephens: Can I jump in real quick with something that anecdotal that we know in our community?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Again, going back to my friend, Roxi, that I just talked about a few minutes ago. She has a CGM, and she monitors her blood sugar, and she goes to Zumba. She loves to go to Zumba. Right after she does Zumba, her blood sugar always goes way up.

Melanie Avalon: High intensity.

Gin Stephens: Yep.

Melanie Avalon: That would be the exception. Well, not the exception, but--

Gin Stephens: Well, because your body's dumping the glycogen. Just actually, don't be surprised if that happens, but that's not a bad thing. That can make people scared like, “Oh, my gosh, this exercise is making me worse.” It's not, it's just your body doing something, because of the exertion.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's a great point, because if you're in the fasted state, and your blood sugar's not elevated, and then you do high intensity exercise where you need that glucose, the body can generate it and spike your blood sugar. Compared to if you're exercising in the fed state, if your blood glucose is already high, then the exercise can be using that already high blood glucose and lowering it. Really, it's just a matter of your goals. You could do both, but you can just approach exercise with that mindset of what it would be addressing.

Gin Stephens: I just can't imagine eating and then going to work out. I don't think I'd feel my best. I don't want to work out on a full stomach. That just sounds like the worst plan in the world to me. Now that I know what it's like to work out in the fasted state, I cannot imagine eating a meal and then be like, “Now, I'm going to work out.”

Melanie Avalon: I guess, in my head, I was envisioning, she did say workout, so that would be more accurate. In my head, I was envisioning a walk after dinner.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's okay. Nothing wrong with that. That feels good. But like a workout? I think I would throw up. I don't know. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I would not want to.

Gin Stephens: Uh-huh. No.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so really, it's based on your goals.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. All right. She says, “My other question is about the high carb, low fat diet. I've always heard that protein is often related to high fat. So, isn't a high carb, low fat diet incompatible with high protein?”

Melanie Avalon: Also, a great question. It is true that people often associate protein and fat because meat normally has fat with it, or vegan alternatives of things that people think are high in protein, like nuts, or I guess dairy as well as often high fat and high protein, but it doesn't have to be. There's a lot of lean protein that is not high in fat. If you want no fat, egg whites, zero fat.

Gin Stephens: Don't we all remember the lean chicken breasts that we all ate back in the day? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I still eat lean chicken breast because I tend to eat a high carb, high protein, low fat diet most days. Yeah, like lean chicken breast, shrimp, scallops, a lot of white fish is pretty lean.

Gin Stephens: Beans.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Melanie's not eating the beans, but I'm eating the beans. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Low-fat cottage cheese, there's a lot of low-fat dairy, so they do not necessarily have to go together. The thing about meat is-- because this is something that the vegan population people will point out a lot, in beef, for example, you can remove the fat that you see. You can't remove the intramuscular fat. That's not something that you'd be able to cut away. It's possibly something you could cook out a little bit, but it's hard to reduce it completely.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's what we used to do, Melanie, back in the low-fat diets of the early 90s. We would buy the leanest ground beef you could buy, and then you would cook it and then you would rinse it. We rinsed it off. I remember doing that. Rinsing my ground beef. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I still do that.

Gin Stephens: Not me, not me.

Melanie Avalon: If you want to address the intramuscular fat, grass-fed beef is lower in intramuscular fat than corn-fed beef. The corn-fed beef is basically made to fatten up compared to beef on pasture completely.

Gin Stephens: I finally cooked a good steak the other day. I've always said I can't cook steak. I had some grass-fed steak and I finally managed to cook it properly. It was amazing. I don't know, it might have only happened once in my life. [laughs] We'll say but it was like the best steak I've ever had, and I managed to cook it myself. It was not low fat there because I put the butter on top.

Melanie Avalon: I'm a huge steak fan as well, Gin. Going back to-- I was talking in the beginning about ButcherBox with the seafood industry and everything. Their steaks are incredible as well.

Gin Stephens: So good. They are. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Especially after reading Metabolical, I've realized more and more as consumers-- I'm going to be on a soapbox right now, but making change in our system-- Oh, Dr. Robert Lustig, I'm all over the place right now. He also talks about climate and greenhouse gases and the role of agriculture versus plants, and it's very much in line with Robb Wolf’s Sacred Cow. There's a lot of confusion surrounding what is sustainable for the planet in the future on our health. Really, I honestly truly believe that the solution is regenerative agriculture. It is what is closest to the natural state of our planet. It's the way the planet is naturally meant to be. He talks all about in his book, the different greenhouse gases and the difference in when regenerative agriculture, sustainable methods, how that actually could reverse the climate issues that we have, really all the issues are, it's the processed food industry and the conventional farming system that's creating all of these problems. In any case, that's why I feel like the change is going to have to come from consumers and making their choices.

Gin Stephens: It's happening slow-- Well, quickly, actually. I was saying what's happening slowly, but everywhere you go, even if you're shopping, wherever you're shopping, big box stores, they have organic foods now. I bought some beans, I was throwing them into a soup that I was making. I was at Kroger, they had whatever brand of organic that they have, and it was $1 for this can of beans, it was cheaper to buy the organic beans than it was to buy the big name brand nonorganic.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I actually asked him about that. What were his thoughts on the commercialization of organic practices? Was that a good thing or a bad thing? There's been discussion in my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, where somebody was lamenting some big corporate company buying out organic brands. I was saying, “Well, maybe, is that a good thing?”

Gin Stephens: I think it's a good thing. Here's my thought on it. It's because consumers are demanding better and the big corporations want to do what we will buy. To me, it is a huge positive sign, the fact that there's more and more choice out there is good, because we're demanding it. It's happening. I talk about in Clean(ish) about years ago, when Will and his food sensitivities and chemical sensitivities, I don't think I've ever told this story in public, really. But we had a really hard time finding things that Will could use and eat because he responded very poorly to certain chemicals. It was really hard. This was in the early 2000s. He was born in 1999, and this is when he was little. But now, it's everywhere you go. It's Walmart, it's Kroger, it's every grocery store has options.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I think that's incredible. Then, on top of that, that's why I love companies like ButcherBox like I've been saying, because they are one step better than that to me, I think, because they cut out the grocery store, which is the middleman. So, they're directly connecting farmers to consumers. That is making everything more affordable, more accessible. Especially after all this, what I've learned about regulations and fraud and secrets and motives, trusting the company connecting you to the farmer, I just think is so, so important.

Gin Stephens: Let me backtrack what I said a minute ago, because the one thing it's hard to find locally is the good meat unless you're buying from a local farmer. At your local grocery store, it is still harder to find the meat that you're looking for, and that's why ButcherBox makes it so much easier.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I love them. It's been amazing to be sponsored by them because they just embody everything that I'm hoping for with everything. Just to clarify for listeners who are not familiar, it's all online and you pick your box and you pick what you want and they ship directly to you. It comes like on dry ice and I've never had any problems with stuff not arriving-- It arrives completely frozen.

Gin Stephens: I don't know if it's changed or if there's just a misconception, but sometimes people think that they just send you whatever. That's not the case. You do get to pick. It's not just a random box of meat. Did it used to be when they first started out, was it just they sent you a random assortment?

Melanie Avalon: The cuts can be random. You were picking if you want steak or chicken or pork and then you don't necessarily pick the cuts.

Gin Stephens: Right. But you do get to pick what's in it?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you get to choose the composition of-- they're not going to send Gin fish because Gin does not want fish. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Even though if Gin wanted fish, she should get it from ButcherBox.

Gin Stephens: Gin does not want fish. Sorry.

Melanie Avalon: If she wanted it because of the transparency, I swear.

Gin Stephens: Did I tell you that JJ Virgin interviewed me for her podcast, and I told her about my dislike of fish. Then she sent me stuffed fish as a joke.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's funny.

Gin Stephens: It was so funny. It came in the mail and I'm like, “Oh my God, this is hilarious.” Anyway, JJ Virgin is pretty awesome. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, if you'd like to get ButcherBox, their offer right now is really incredible. It's a free barbecue bundle. So, you get two New York strip steaks, and their steaks are completely grass fed, completely grass finished, which is key. Five pounds of organic free-range chicken drumsticks and six grass-fed, grass-finished burgers all for free. That’s so much.

Gin Stephens: Is that going to be the deal when this podcast comes out at the end of May, that'll be the deal? Then, okay, because if you're listening to this later, not on the day it comes out, it always changes, but they always have a great deal of some sort.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, but this one is pretty great. That's two strip steaks, five pounds of chicken drumsticks. Five pounds, that's a lot. [laughs] That's a lot. I think that just sunk in, I wasn't thinking about it. That's a lot. Six burgers. It's their barbecue bundle. All for free. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast.

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Gin Stephens: All right, we have one more question here from Anais and it's, “Finally just a question about the Oura ring. Is it a good device to help you track your cycles, thanks to the body temperature feedback?” I can actually answer this even though I don't have an Oura ring, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Really?

Gin Stephens: Because a friend of mine has one, not you, another friend.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I lost mine. Did you to know that?

Gin Stephens: I do, well, yeah. You can tell about that in a minute. My friend who has one, based on, I'm not really sure her birth control or she had an ablation or something, so she does not have a visible cycle, if you know what I'm saying. She's of the age where she is approaching, she's like perimenopausal so she's not sure. She doesn't know based on cycles, what's happening as opposed to the menopausal transition, but she knows because of her Oura ring. Her body temperature, she can tell that she's still cycling, she can tell that her ovaries are still doing what they do because of the change in the body temperature. 100% yes, you can do that.

Melanie Avalon: I lost my diamond Oura ring.

Gin Stephens: How in the world have you lost another one?

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. It was on my finger, obviously. I was at my apartment, it was on my finger. All I did was I went to-- not far, I went to Target. I walked in, I bought cucumbers. I walked out. I went to cryotherapy, I realized at cryotherapy it was gone. I went back, you can get a Bluetooth tracker that shows Bluetooth devices. I retraced everywhere.

Gin Stephens: Somebody probably picked it up.

Melanie Avalon: Probably fell and somebody--

Gin Stephens: And they didn't know what they had.

Melanie Avalon: I know. [laughs] Picked up this ring with diamonds and strange computer chips.

Gin Stephens: You've got to get a tighter one. Maybe one that fits a little tighter on your finger.

Melanie Avalon: I don't want a tighter one.

Gin Stephens: Well.

Melanie Avalon: In any case. [laughs] I'm really sad. So, I've interviewed the CEO, Harpreet Rai, twice on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. In the most recent episode, we dived deep, deep into this because it does have temperature tracking capabilities, and women do notice changes in their cycles because they're always updating the app and updating the information from it. Right now, they're currently working on the software in the app to--

Gin Stephens: Predict your cycle.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, to tell more about women's cycles, take that--

Gin Stephens: And what phase you're in. When I was trying to get pregnant, back in, let's see, Will was born in 1999. So, this was-- [laughs] Anyway, what I was trying to get pregnant with Will, I read a book about fertility in women and charting with your temperature. Actually, I think I might have even done that when I was trying to get pregnant with Cal, I'm not sure, but I was taking my temperature and then knowing where I was in my cycle, because it's really accurate.

Melanie Avalon: I'm actually reading right now, Alisa Vitti, In the FLO book. It's blowing my mind about-- I've learned so much about women's cycles. I don't know anything. I've learned so much. Long story short, the temperature does play a huge role and the Oura ring, yes, it shows your temperature. Right now, you have to make your own intuitive thoughts based on it, but in the future, it should have more information about women's cycles.

Gin Stephens: See, I both want an Oura ring and do not want an Oura ring. I don't want to wear it.

Melanie Avalon: Why not?

Gin Stephens: I just don’t want to have something on my finger. I don't sleep in my wedding ring anymore. I used to, but then I stopped. I don't sleep in any rings and I don't want to sleep in a ring. I don't want to wear a ring. I don't like big bulky rings. But now, I really want an Oura ring. Darn it. Oura ring, make a little ring. I need them to have their technology miniature, so it's a skinny little ring. I don't like thick rings. But now, I really want an Oura ring. I'm having a dilemma.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Just do it, Gin. You will love it.

Gin Stephens: I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: You will love it.

Gin Stephens: Jury's out, but I really do want one because I want to track some more things. I love that it gives you a readiness score. Hearing my friend, Sheri, talk about hers and how it's always right. [sighs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's amazing.

Gin Stephens: I mean, even though my bed tracks my sleep, I feel like the Oura ring would do a better job, because sometimes I know I had a bad night's sleep, and my bed’s like, “Great night's sleep.” I'm like, “That's a lie.”

Melanie Avalon: After interviewing Harpreet twice, I am completely sold because he talks about the difference between it, Fitbits and Garmins and the technology in Oura, it's the technology that you want.

Gin Stephens: Or sometimes my bed, Chad will roll over-- after I get up in the morning, he'll roll over into my spot and then it says I went back to bed, and I did not go back to bed. Then, everything's all off on my data, but my ring wouldn't do that. See, you're going to make me have to get one, and Sheri too, I have really-- she's my cohost on the Life Lessons podcast. How can I not get one with both of you having one, and loving it?

Melanie Avalon: It's meant to be. I just reordered. I didn’t get the diamond one again though.

Gin Stephens: I actually looked at it the other day. I think I would get the gold.

Melanie Avalon: I could have guessed if I had guessed.

Gin Stephens: Well, because I'm wearing gold jewelry right now.

Melanie Avalon: I reordered the one that I had the first time around, which was the Black Heritage one.

Gin Stephens: Everyone can predict about when Gin is going to have her Oura ring. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: All right, I think we can squeeze in one more last fun quick question. This comes from Deanna. She says, “Hi there. Can you add fresh mint leaves in your water during the fasting period? Thanks.”

Gin Stephens: And the answer is no. Do not add fresh mint leaves to your water during the fasting period. For one thing, they're leaves. I wouldn't even add mint essential oil to water and drink it during the fast. Remember, we want the fast to be boring. The yes list includes plain water, nothing added for flavored. Plain sparkling water, nothing added for flavor. Black coffee, not flavored coffee. Plain tea, nothing added. That's it. Save the delicious fresh mint leaves for your eating window. You can have them all the time. There's all these things that if you're like, “Well, I want to have lemon because it's good for your liver.” I'm like, “Well, open your window with lemon water.” We're not telling you not to have it ever. You just don't want to have it during the fast.

Melanie Avalon: Can I be awful and say I think maybe some people-- just for me, I think some people, it might be okay if they're not eating the leaves.

Gin Stephens: Well, I absolutely wouldn't because I just absolutely prized the clean fast to the point that why would I want to risk it? That's the way I look at it. Maybe the mint leaves would be fine but--

Melanie Avalon: I guess for me mint just so doesn't bother my fast. If anything, it really helps me and I could see how maybe some people minty water would not be an issue.

Gin Stephens: Well, it is not Gin recommended.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. It's a maybe for Melanie, confuse all the people, not eating the leaves to clarify.

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know how you would not if you're drinking fresh mint leaves in your water, how do you avoid them?

Melanie Avalon: They're large leaves. You'd have to consciously eat the leaf, I think.

Gin Stephens: Well, I would not. I would not put it in my water. Just drink the plain water, embrace the plain. [laughs] We can do it. We can drink plain water. Plain water is so delicious and refreshing. That's one thing we hear sometimes, somebody they'll say, “I can't stand the taste of plain water.” I'm like, “I don't even understand that.” We've trained our palates to need entertainment all the time. They need a break from that. We don't need food signals coming in all the time. I think that leads to a lot of our metabolic dysregulation. Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. I'm MelanieAvalon, Gin is GinStephens. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. I think that's everything. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No. I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this was absolutely wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 214 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment., pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting podcast.

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All of their beef is 100% grass fed and grass finished, that's really hard to find. They work personally with all the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves, but the planet, this is so important to me. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. If you recently saw a documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy, you might be a little bit nervous about eating seafood. Now, I understand why ButcherBox makes it so, so clear and important about how they work with the seafood industry. Everything is checked for transparency for quality and for sustainable raising practices. You want their seafood. The value is incredible. The average cost is actually less than $6 per meal. it's so easy, everything ships directly to your door. 

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One more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. 

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years and your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter, and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combined the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter. People share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. Again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show. 

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 214 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: And this will not be applicable when this airs, Gin, but Happy Mother's Day.

Gin Stephens: Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: Are you doing anything for it?

Gin Stephens: Well, no, not specifically. One son's in California. Will was actually in Savannah yesterday, but they all remembered me and sent me things and made sure I had little something. [laughs] It's really nice now that they're grown up because they're boys. Boys are not like girls, I think, when it comes to celebrating your mother, but [laughs] anyway.

Melanie Avalon: My brother-- my mom's in Florida right now, and he randomly just flew down to surprise her. It's such a nice thing.

Gin Stephens: That's really nice. I woke up with a potted plant on the doorstep with no card or anything, and I was like, “Where did this come from?” Because Will’s in Savannah. He's had a friend deliver it overnight, [laughs] which is really funny. 

Melanie Avalon: He had a friend--? 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, deliver it. A friend delivered it. Yeah, I thought that was fun. He was thinking of me. Anyway, can I just celebrate with you that my life is back to normal?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I was going to say congratulations. 

Gin Stephens: It's actually better than normal. I mean, I feel like I've got a whole like freedom. I submitted my book two days ago. I had my delayed due date. It's my own fault that I couldn't get it done because I did all these new projects in between. I mean started the Delay Don't Deny Social Network, left Facebook, which did free up some time not being on Facebook, but starting a new business takes a lot of time. I haven't really talked about it. Actually, no, I haven't. Everyone knew I was at the beach. I spent like, over half of April at the beach. I figured it out.

Melanie Avalon: Where are you at in your book process? 

Gin Stephens: Well, the book is turned in? 

Melanie Avalon: Is it completely 100%? Like you are completely done? Like will it be anything else?

Gin Stephens: No, I'm done, this is the way the process worked with my editor anyway, because I know probably every editor is different, but it was originally due March 31st. Then I made all these bad decisions like starting the social network and buying a new beach cottage that needed my attention. I begged for a little more time. So, I got until May 7. I left the beach and then I had one week to finish it. I was really almost done because I'd been working like night and day whenever I had a moment like I've been working nonstop on something, since January 1st, really, I've been working really hard. I am completely done with the first part. I've revised it, I've reread the whole thing. It all flows, it makes sense. I've edited for-- I'm sure they'll still be typos, there always are, they'll find them, But now, it's time for the editorial review, so it should be like we need to fix this part or this part sounds weird, that's the part we’re at. Where she's going to then send me notes of things that she wants me to tweak. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah, that's what I was wondering about, like the tweaking if there was going to be more of that. 

Gin Stephens: Well, there's always tweaking because this is just the first raw draft to her, but I feel really good about it. Yeah, I spent the entire day on Friday, just combing through it and reading it nonstop, and the wording, still though, as a writer. If you read What When Wine right this minute, you would say, “Ooh, I should reword that.” Because you never are done. You're never done. You're like, “Oh, I wish I'd have said that little bit differently.” Sometimes, it takes another person to read it to be like, “I don't even know what this means.” Like, “Well, I know what it meant,” but-- [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny.

Gin Stephens: It is. Anyway, I feel just like I went to Lowe's with Chad this morning. [laughs] I had time to do that. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you have your life back. 

Gin Stephens: I'm like, “Look, this is the world. I'm in it.” Yeah. It really feels like I have my life back. Since I'm not on Facebook, that took a whole lot of time. The Delay Don’t Deny Social Network is amazing. I'm not spending hours and hours and hours on it every day. 

Melanie Avalon: Right. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Life is good. Anything new with you?

Melanie Avalon: Just plugging away. I'm really upset I can't find-- for listeners, before we started recording, I spent like 20 minutes trying to find a study I wanted to talk about, I'm really shocked that it can't find it. I wanted to talk about it so bad. Basically, I randomly saw a study. I don't know what made me search for it in the first place. It was comparing obese patients-- I don't know if they're overweight or obese, this is why it would help if I could find it. Regardless, they're definitely overweight, they were on either low carb or low-fat calorie restricted diets. It compared their weight loss. It was shocking. They looked at their like baseline level of insulin sensitivity or insulin resistance. The patients that were insulin sensitive lost about twice the amount of weight on a low-fat diet, high-carb diet. The people who were insulin resistant lost like twice the amount of weight on a low-carb, high-fat diet.

Gin Stephens: That's amazing. Again, everybody, it's not we're all right and you're all wrong for the diet people. It's we're all different, and it has to do with so many different factors. It's funny when you read something written from someone who's a low-carb proponent, trashing the low-fat era, or the low-fat people trashing the low-carb, high-fat movement. I know for me personally, Gin Stephens, I lost weight, eating low fat, and got really, really thin, and I never once lost weight on low carb. That is 100%, anecdotal, that's me, that's my experience. I'm not making it up. That is the truth.

Melanie Avalon: You know what that would suggest just based on that study would be that you're probably insulin sensitive, because the patients that who are insulin sensitive lost more on the high-carb, low-fat diet? 

Gin Stephens: Well, I absolutely did. I was the skinniest in my adult life when I was doing that, honestly. I mean, I was like, early 20s but low carb never did a thing for me. I tried really hard to make low carb work for me, because the science is so compelling and the way it's explained. I believe that probably for a lot of bodies, that's exactly what happens, but my body, no, that didn't lead to fat loss for me, magically, anyway. I wasn't fasting with either of them. Just to make it clear. When I did low fat, I was not fasting. When I did low carb, I was not fasting. Those were pre-fasting.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. I wish people could just understand this. I post an Instagram video yesterday. It's all the random little dietary myths that people think. People think more ketones is always better or ketones mean you're definitely burning body fat or fat doesn't easily-

Gin Stephens: Get stored as fat.

Melanie Avalon: -become fat. [laughs] Well, if I find that study, I will put it in the show notes. Yeah, that's really, really fascinating.

Gin Stephens: Well, I can't wait to read that one. I want to read it when you find it. 

Melanie Avalon: I don't know why I can't find it. Oh, one other exciting thing. Yesterday was the Bulletproof Conference, the Biohacking Virtual Conference.

Gin Stephens: Oh, how did that go?

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, I did Dave Asprey’s Virtual Biohacking Conference that he has every year. He had it this year, and InsideTracker was one of the speakers and they invited me to be a speaker with them. I told Gin this already, but I got really excited because I didn't think that they were going to actually put me on the website. I thought I was going to just be in the video, but they actually listed me as a speaker for the conference and put my bio and put me in the lineup. It was very, very surreal. I don't like watching myself. I hadn't seen the video, but I sort of briefly watched it, like squinted my eyes and made sure it looked okay. Yeah, I think it went really well.

Gin Stephens: See, that is so weird since you're an actress. I can't believe an actress who doesn't like to watch herself.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like it's a common thing, though. Maybe? I don't know. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm a podcaster who don’t like to listen to yourself. 

Melanie Avalon: See, yeah. [laughs] 

Gin Stephens: But when I do, I'm always like, “Hey, I don't sound that dumb.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't know how common it is.

Gin Stephens: Not that I would think I'd come across sounding dumb. I mean, like sounding weird. You know what I mean. Like when you hear your own voice you think you sound weird.

Melanie Avalon: I was thinking about that because growing up I used to not like my voice at all, but I don't mind it now. I think probably because I've done so much listening to it all the time. Exposure effect. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I bet so. 

Melanie Avalon: All right, well. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off, we have some listener feedback. The first thing comes from Nellie, the subject is “Life saving.” Nellie says, “Hello, ladies. I don't have a question I wanted to take the time to say thank you. I found your podcast in January of 2019, and I've been hooked on listening to you both every week and I've read all your books, I have lost 60 pounds and I'm still losing even through this pandemic and starting menopause. I really cannot thank you both enough for what you have done to change my life. I have struggled with my weight all my life and I now have such a better relationship with food. I will never go back to my old way of unhealthy eating and counting every single calorie that enters my mouth. What a freeing and liberating feeling that is. 

So many people were so discouraging at the beginning. Still, I kept on because honestly, I was feeling so good, and the best feeling is when they see me now looking amazing in my skinny jeans with a healthy glow to my face looking younger than I should. I played it forward and passed on your books and podcast to my sister and sister-in-law, and they are both also doing AMAZING.” That was an all caps. She says, “Also because of you, Gin, I no longer suffer from horrible night sweats as I now can contribute them to, yep, sadly, the wine,” frowny face.

Gin Stephens: I know I'm frowning too.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] She says I don't believe I would have made that connection if I hadn't been following your podcast. It has opened my eyes to a better way of life, and I am truly eternally grateful to both of you. Wishing you both continued success. Nellie, from Canada.”

Gin Stephens: Well, awesome. Yeah. last night, I drank a glass of wine. Not a huge glass, but we've been kind of celebrating here all week. Well since Friday when I turned my book in. We were playing cards and Chad's said, “Let me open a bottle of wine.” So, I had a small glass of red wine, night sweats tossed and turned. I told him, “If you ever see me drinking red wine again, slap it out of my hand.”

Melanie Avalon: I normally drink Dry Farm Wines every night. I'm really good with it, I sleep well. My Oura ring says I sleep well. If I don't have Dry Farm Wines, like last night I went out, it was still organic, biodynamic wine at the restaurant, but I had that. 

Gin Stephens: Well, mine wine is Dry Farm. We had Dry Farm because I bought Dry Farm red for Chad. We have like a stash of it for him because he drinks a glass of wine with dinner frequently, like very frequently. Sometimes, I'm like, “I want to drink a glass of wine too.” But it really affects my sleep to the point that-- I mean even the Dry Farm Wine, I think it's the menopause. Nellie said that that's what she's noticing as well. I remember when I brought it up, when I was first trying to make the connection, how many women-- it was in one of the Facebook groups said, “Yep, that happened to me with menopause.” Our bodies change in so many ways. Hormones are powerful and I didn't use to. When I wrote Delay, Don’t Deny, I literally was having a glass of prosecco every night with dinner, and it was not Dry Farm wines. It was a Costco brand, their prosecco, their house brand, and I was fine. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, there's definitely a lot of factors. 

Gin Stephens: As you get older, your life is going to be different. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so I had a lot of wine last night. 

Gin Stephens: You had a lot of wine?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. It's so funny and fascinating to me how much my Oura ring knows. It's like it doesn't let you get away with anything, like it knows.

Gin Stephens: Uh-huh. So, you slept badly after not having Dry Farm Wine? 

Melanie Avalon: I wake up and your Oura ring every morning gives you your readiness score and your sleep score. So, your sleep score is how well you slept, and then your readiness score, it takes into account how well you slept as well as your heart rate variability and your body temperature and all these things. It tells you how ready you are for the day and if you should rest or if you should relax. It's funny, I wake up and I'm like, I wonder if it's going to know.” And it knows.

Gin Stephens: Sheri Bullock, co-host Life Lessons with me. She has an Oura ring and she loves hers. Same thing she's noticed a huge difference. In certain things that she drinks affects her more. Like beer, she has a beer, doesn't affect our sleep as much, which is interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Does not affect her. That's interesting.

Gin Stephens: Not as much, no.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because I normally have probably half a glass or glass of Dry Farm Wines every night. I do really well with my sleep and readiness scores, but if I have too much, then--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I had a very small serving. It was not a full glass. It was a small glass, and it was probably the equivalent of half a glass to three fourths of one glass.

Melanie Avalon: Regardless, if friends would like Dry Farm Wines--

Gin Stephens: I highly recommend it. Chad drinks it, I buy it for him, and I also had their sparkling and they're white and every now and then, I'll have some of that. That doesn't affect me as badly. Something about that read.

Melanie Avalon: It makes such a difference for me. Our link for it is dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, and that gets you bottle for a penny, and this will be over, but right now they have a special rosé collection for Mother's Day. Do you like rosés?

Gin Stephens: I do not.

Melanie Avalon: I don't really either that much. 

Gin Stephens: No, I always wanted to, because they look so fun and everyone is always so excited about drinking them. When I was at the beach, getting the house ready, some of my college friends came to celebrate with me and we stayed there and we were at a little wine tasting. I was driving, so all I did was literally taste. They had a rosé and they're like, “We love it.” It was a sparkling Rosé and they all bought it, and I'm like, “Ugh, no.” [laughs] But they all literally loved it. They loved it. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: We agree on something.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we do. We do. We agree on a lot of things. Not usually what you're eating or drinking though. [laughs] 

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I interviewed the founder, Gil Blander, on my show, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. What is so amazing about InsideTracker is that their blood tests, include the biomarkers that you need to be testing that are key to performance that you don't get from traditional blood tests. These are things like ferritin, vitamin D, GST, which is a liver enzyme that you will rarely ever see on a blood test. My favorite part, they don't just give you the data, they provide you with nutrition and lifestyle tips to take action. 

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Gin Stephens: All right. We have something from Amanda. It's feedback and the subject is “Gallstones Information.” She says, “Hi, Melanie and Gin. Thank you for your podcast, I always learn something. I have been managing gallstones for over 20 years now, with at most one or two attacks a year and have recently started IF with great success. I'm on the way back to great health. Since starting IF, I have only had one mild attack and it was during the very earliest days. When I'm experiencing pain, I remove fats temporarily. Fats generate contractions of the gallbladder, which equals pain, and increase my intake of acids, especially lemon, which gives your liver what it needs to generate more bile. After 48 hours, I gently reintroduced fats and coffee, another contraction generator, and this seems to work well for me. 

I write to you because Melanie was saying she didn't know where to go for gallstone information. I got all of my best info from Dr. Sandra Cabot who wrote a book about healing the liver and the gallbladder with nutrition. I hope this is helpful. Much love. Amanda, from Victoria, Australia.” Thank you, Amanda, that is very helpful to hear from someone who suffers from gallbladder issues. Also, that she has been managing it for over 20 years and IF did not make it worse.

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's absolutely amazing. We'll put a link in the show notes to that book. People might find that really helpful. Yeah, it was really nice to get back some feedback from somebody who specifically experienced this and had the effects with IF. Do people ask about that a lot still, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, not really, no. Sometimes, people will pop in and say, “I heard intermittent fasting is bad for your gallbladder.” Then we have to answer that, just like the question we had, I think started the whole thing. Again, like I said, what we don't hear a lot of is people who are like, “I've never had gallbladder problems before. Now, all of a sudden, I am.” I feel like we would, I feel in the groups with half a million people in Facebook before I left Facebook, I think we would have heard that a lot and we didn't.

Melanie Avalon: People really want like randomized controlled trials and all of these studies and stuff, but it's like what value is there to the end of one, like personal anecdotes?

Gin Stephens: There's huge value. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's like crowdsourcing the information. There's a study they're doing right now in France, they're crowdsourcing, how people are living, and people are inputting it into apps. I think that's how they're going to be collecting data for a lot of things going forward. I know it's not a randomized controlled study, but there are even flaws with all those. If you try, you can pick any study, somebody can come along, say, “Well, here's the flaw there. Here's the flaw here.” There's always something. You can't control for every variable. Even changes become another variable.

Melanie Avalon: Because looking at a large group of people is sort of similar to a correlational study. I just think there's something to seeing it consistently over the years, like with a huge group, the Facebook groups or something, even though it's less official--

Gin Stephens: Right. It doesn't have any weight, but it should count for something because I can tell you what we had over and over, cholesterol goes up right after people start fasting. People, they might lose hair. Yes, if they overstressed their body with the fasting and their body perceives it as a stress. Or, they have increased acne for a while. Yes, we see those things so many times. New gallbladder problems, not a lot and definitely not more than I think you would have it in the regular population because gallbladder issues are hugely common. We would expect to see a certain amount of them, but we really didn't see very many, as I said before.

Melanie Avalon: It's telling.

Gin Stephens: It is.

Melanie Avalon: All right, shall we go on to our first question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Our first question comes from Mandy, the subject is “Body Odor.” Side note, I used to be obsessed with the name, Mandy, growing up, I thought it was a beautiful name.

Gin Stephens: It is a beautiful name. [laughs] Did you wish your name was Mandy instead of Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Sorry, I'm actually contemplating this answer. Possibly, possibly, I'm not sure. Oh, when I just thought of a random story, but we can come back to it. Mandy, the subject is “Body Odor.” Mandy says, “Melanie and Gin, I learned so much from your podcast. Thank you for showing up in my earbuds every week to keep me motivated. I am 43 years old and consider myself fairly healthy. I live an active lifestyle, watch what I eat, and I'm hardly ever sick. For years, I have struggled with a bad body odor, specifically from my armpits. A daily shower was a non-negotiable. Even then, it didn't always keep it at bay. Stressful situations, confrontational conversations, or public speaking would worsen the situation. I've made one big change in my lifestyle lately. I've switched from protein pacing my food to a 20:4 intermittent fasting, typically six days a week, my body odor is all but gone. Could this be a wonderful side benefit from the IF lifestyle? Thank you in advance for your thoughts.” All right, body odor.

Gin Stephens: That's a great question. We do hear this from people. First of all, we hear it both ways. We hear that they'll initially have really worse body odor for a while, we've heard that. Then, it gets better. We have actually heard it. Why is this happening? We’re just theorizing here because I don't think there's been a study on fasting and body odor that I've ever seen. Have you seen one, Melanie? 

Melanie Avalon: I have not. 

Gin Stephens: That'd be a pretty specific topic to be studying. Think about what's happening under those armpits. Your body is releasing sweat. What comes out with your sweat? Not just sweat. We sweat out toxins. Then, why do we smell because it's not the sweat itself that smells, it's what's happening with the little bacteria under there or whatever's going on in that little closed up area, making it have that lovely smell. I guess it's whatever's coming out and what those little bacteria do with it, that sort of thing. I'm not a sweat expert, by the way or I'm not a body odor expert. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my personal experience with fasting and body odor was-- actually I think when I first actually went low carb was when my body odor significantly went down, and then when I started doing fasting, it all but disappeared, and then it didn't come back until-- well, this is interesting, and this is all anecdotal, again going back to one on one, for a long period of time, it would only come back, if I had food that didn't agree with me, I would get body odor, which was really, really interesting. The example I'm thinking of is if I got sick, and I was having a lot of cough drops and stuff with different ingredients, I specifically remember I would get body odor. I think I just am very, very sensitive to detoxing that way. Somebody posted about this the other day my group, IF Biohackers, but they were saying the opposite, that they were experiencing increased body odor with fasting, and wouldn’t go away. I think a lot of people experience that as well, because if they get sort of a detox effect during the past.

Gin Stephens: That, I think so. Mm-hmm. 

Melanie Avalon: Gin mentioned it, it involves a lot of things, it involves the actual like detox, it can involve the bacteria. Interestingly, I didn't really realize the extent of-- our entire body has a microbiome. I don't think I really appreciated that until recently, but I read it in two books recently talking about it, specifically, our gut microbiome, our oral and our mouth microbiome. Did you know our breasts have a microbiome, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Hmm, I'm not surprised. Like, the first time that really I had my eyes open to it is when I interviewed a dentist for intermittent fasting stories, and she was talking about your oral microbiome. We've got all these little critters live in everywhere.

Melanie Avalon: And apparently, one of the books said, there's even-- and I have to research this further, but it said there's even like a microbiome cloud that's around us. I need to research that. I wouldn't be surprised, though. Kind of like, if you think of like Linus, or is it dirty one in Charlie Brown?

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's Pig-Pen.

Melanie Avalon: Pig-Pen. Yeah, point being, I assume there's most likely a gut microbiome population under your armpits that could be playing a factor. Also, it's interesting that she switched from protein pacing, which I'm not sure-- I'm assuming that's having small amounts of protein throughout the day. 

Gin Stephens: I would guess. I don't know, I've never heard it called protein pacing, but that sounds logical.

Melanie Avalon: Depending on the amount of protein I eat, I can experience smells related to that, which is interesting, and I think it has to do with protein metabolism. But, yes, the answer is all over the place. It's a thing.

Gin Stephens: We do hear it. If you start fasting and something changes about your body odor, either direction, yes, it's probably the fasting [laughs] because we have heard it both ways. 

Melanie Avalon: I do think that if it's a detox effect, you don't want to be in a state of detox forever. I think there's people who feel they get stuck in this detox state and they're just constantly detoxing forever and ever and ever. I encourage people who are experiencing that to maybe reevaluate, because that's the whole argument in the whole holistic health world about Herxheimer reactions and detox. Is detox a good thing? Is detox a bad thing? As far as like your experience of it with negative side effects, my point with all of that, is if you have the body odor-- well, she's talking about not having the body odor, but if you are experiencing body odor with fasting, and it doesn't stop, there's probably something else going on, that you might want to revisit.

Gin Stephens: Well, it could be your fat cells dumping out some kind of weird toxin, and you've gotten to that layer of whatever coming out.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, true. 

Gin Stephens: Whatever goes in is going to come out, that’s the thing. It's like if you shove a bunch of crap under the bed, you're going to have to pull it back out when you're doing the cleaning. It might not be pleasant if it's been in there a long time. I'm thinking about when my boys were little, and how much grossness would be under their beds. [laughs] I would always get so mad. I was always infuriated by the end of the process. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. 

Gin Stephens: I don't know maybe all the other listeners maybe they just told their children to clean their rooms and their rooms were cleaned, but at our house, no. They would hide things away. I would go digging around and it was not pretty.

Melanie Avalon: I remember I was always so in awe of how my mom could find anything. Like if you lose something, your mom can find it and I just never understood that.

Gin Stephens: Oh, it's true. We can, we could find anything. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I still don't understand. How does she find the things? 

Gin Stephens: We just do. It's still true even to this day, even though it's only Chad and me here. I can find anything. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I don't understand. 

Gin Stephens: I'm not even home, I'll be at the beach and he'll call me and I know where stuff is.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't understand. [laughs] I will say though, one last plug is if you are using conventional deodorant, I cannot recommend enough not to do so, with the aluminum content. I think it's really, really important to switch to safe deodorant because plugging up our armpits with-- Well, first of all, just the idea of plugging up our armpits when those are supposed to be letting toxins out just seems a little bit counterproductive. Then, on top of that aluminum likely has toxicity in the body. I know we've had Native as sponsor before on the show, they have a great deodorant. Then Beautycounter has an amazing deodorant, so those are two options.

Gin Stephens: I really like the Beautycounter a lot. 

Melanie Avalon: Which scent did you like? 

Gin Stephens: Coconut, but I like lavender, too. I bet you like the rose, don't you? I don't like rose. People, it smells like rose. If you'd like the way rose smells, you would love it.

Melanie Avalon: I actually like the coconut the most. 

Gin Stephens: Do you? Okay, because I was just thinking how we would be the opposite, and you would like the rose. Yeah. You seem like someone who would like rose. Why is that? 

Melanie Avalon: Really? I don't like lavender, and you said you like lavender.

Gin Stephens: Oh, see, I do love lavender. I love lavender.

Melanie Avalon: I get a headache. 

Gin Stephens: Okay. It makes me so happy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it doesn't make me happy. [laughs] 

Gin Stephens: But they smell very, very true to what they are. If you know you love coconut, you would love the coconut. If you know you like lavender, you would love the lavender. If you know you'd love rose, you would love the rose. My sister is someone who loves rose. That would be one for her.

Melanie Avalon: Rose is approachable, for me. In general, I don't like scents that much though. I wish they had an unscented one.

Gin Stephens: I love getting that little whiff of coconut.

Melanie Avalon: I like coconut though. That's why, yeah.

Gin Stephens: I feel like I'm at the beach.

Melanie Avalon: I feel summery.

Gin Stephens: Can I just tell you that the beach is my favorite? I tried to talk Chad into selling our house and moving there all the time. [laughs] He's like, “You are crazy.” I'm like, “Yeah, probably,” but I could live less than a thousand square feet. All I need is just a few things. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, minimalist.

Gin Stephens: Well, I could go minimalist. Anyway, I just love the ocean so much.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my family's there right now, too.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, yeah. It's the best way. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, can I tell you the story that I remembered really quick? 

Gin Stephens: Yep. 

Melanie Avalon: Because you were asking me when I was little, did I want to change my name? Do you know like Mendel's genetics?

Gin Stephens: I do. We did need the little Mendelian, whatever they're called. Yeah.

 Melanie Avalon: Have I told the story before?

Gin Stephens: The little Punnett squares, is that what they're called? Punnett squares where you put in the Little Big B, little B or whatever and you try to figure out the genetics.

Melanie Avalon: He was like studying peas, and then he figured out-- Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: Dominant and recessive. Yeah. I think those are called Punnett squares that you apply those. Anyway, go ahead.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I saw something about him yesterday, and I got hit with this memory. Then, I asked my mom about it for clarification. Okay, this is a two-parter. In kindergarten, apparently, I got very upset that we didn't have homework, so I asked my mom and the teacher if I could have homework. They let me pick an assignment to do, so I decided to read a book about Louis Armstrong, and I did a book report on it with my dad and turn it into the teacher for a grade. Then in first grade, I asked if I could do it again. The teacher said I could. So, in first grade, I got a book on Mendel peas in genetics. I did a report on it with my dad and I presented it to the class. 

Gin Stephens: That reminds me of Cal, my older son. He totally did stuff like that. I can remember when he was in first grade--

Melanie Avalon: First grader. [laughs] 

Gin Stephens: Well, Cal did. In first grade, he wrote a book. He stapled the paper together and wrote the book and illustrated it. He was in first grade and he was reading it to his class. His teacher said, “I'm pretty sure Cal just needs to skip on to second grade.” That's what we did. [laughter] Because the other first graders are like, “What's happening?” Cal’s like, “This is the book I wrote over the weekend.” Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Me and Cal would have been such good friends, Cal and I.

Gin Stephens: You would have been really good friends. He read all the presidential biographies in order when he was in elementary school, but he had to read them in order. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. It's such foreshadowing. Like first grade, I was doing a book report on genetics, then how many years later I'm interviewing David Sinclair? But yeah, good times. Anyways, shall we move on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes. We have a question from Carrie. Subject, “How she stopped bingeing.” She says, “First of all, I love your guys' podcast and have been listening since last spring. At the beginning, I was super committed to IF and then lately, I've stopped. I'm starting to pick it back up again, but I've gotten into the routine of working out at 6 AM every day, mainly cardio because I love swimming and biking. I've been trying to do a window from 2 PM to 7 PM, but it seems like when I break my fast in the evening, I tend to binge before my window is done. I'll eat anything sweet that I see and just endless snacks, then I feel really gross and sleep badly. When I stick to it though and have that self-control to limit myself and not eat past 7 or 8. I feel great. 

My question for you girls is about the fasting window and what would be appropriate. In my workouts, I tend to burn upwards of 500 to 800 calories according to my Apple Watch. I get pretty hungry afterwards, but I can ignore it and wait until 1 or 2. But that's when I binge and eat everything. If I had a window from 10 AM to 2 PM instead, how would that change the fast? Would that affect fat burning and metabolism, any differently than later window? Do you think that would help? 

I'm 23 and 5’4”, and currently 137 pounds. I'm trying to get to 122 pounds, that's my goal weight. But I know if I look good and feel good, I'm not too worried about being that number. I just feel like I need a goal to lose the weight. Last summer when consistently doing IF, I stayed around 130 and was content, but still didn't have the best diet. Now with working out more to compete in open water swims, I feel like I need to nourish my body better but for some reason, I always have a tendency to eat poorly after I break my fast. SOS, I need your guy's knowledge and help. I'm almost at my wit's end trying to find something that works and get myself to stop bingeing. It's really making me feel gross and mentally making me struggle.” 

I wish I knew one thing, Melanie, I wish I knew when she started back to intermittent fasting, because bingeing is more common during the adjustment phase because your body's not tapping on your fat stores yet, so you're not well filled during the fast. If she's in the adjustment phase, that would be normal. Let's just assume she's not. If you're in the adjustment phase, then that's normal, and it will go away. But we're going to assume that you're not in the adjustment phase to answer the question. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, perfect. My thoughts about this are, she's asking two questions, what fasting window would best support her not bingeing? Also, what fasting window would best support, fat burning and metabolism? I wouldn't over analyze which one is going to create the most fat burning and metabolism. I would focus on which window supports not bingeing. Yeah, because I think it's kind of like what they say with exercise. The best exercise is the exercise that you do, it's better probably to be having an active lifestyle, doing consistent exercise in your life, even if it's not as “fat burning exercise,” compared to “fat burning exercise” that you don't like doing, and it's hard to stick to. Applying that to the fasting, I would play around with the window to find the window that makes you least likely to binge and stick to that. I would really, really, really suggest because I think this approach will work. How do you think we say her name? Carrie?

Gin Stephens: I said Carrie.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, she spells it in a really interesting, beautiful way. I would really suggest checking out Glenn Livingston's Never Binge Again, I really think his approach would work for you, Carrie, like 100%. I've had him on my show twice, so I'll put links to that in the show notes. His approach is addressing the binge triggers. I've talked about it a lot on the show. I just think it's so, so helpful. Just to speak to how incredible it is, because I'm really good friends with him and I talk to him, actually, almost daily. His book just got over 10,000 reviews on Amazon, which is insane. I mean, that just goes to show how many people it's really working for.

Gin Stephens: You talk to Dr. Livingston daily? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. [laughs] We're great friends. Yeah, he's a wonderful human being. Yeah, so I would really check out his approach because it basically addresses-- he calls it the pig. He talks about having like a food plan, but in your case, your food plan would be your eating window, or the foods that you feel like you're bingeing on. Identifying that voice that is telling you to binge and to eat, and just, like not listening to it, and it sounds really simple, and like that, it couldn't work because the answer is you just don't do it, but once you read it, you'll understand, like, how it can actually work. I think combining a window that would work for you, which we can talk a little bit about which window we think that would’ve been with the techniques that you might learn in Never Binge Again, you can probably find some freedom from these binge triggers. What window would you suggestion, Gin, for the timing?

Gin Stephens: Here's something that's important. She said she's doing swimming and we know that swimming burns a lot of fuel because first of all, it's you're in the water and so just the effect of the heat loss from your body to the water. Swimmers need more fuel. The fact that it's swimming I think is relevant. Like what was it, Michael Phelps needed 10,000 calories a day when he was training?

Melanie Avalon: I was just reading about that yesterday.

Gin Stephens: Not that we want you to count calories, but the urge to binge is a sign that your body is not well fueled. I talk about this in Fast. Feast. Repeat., which is why I said it's common at the beginning during the adjustment phase when your body is not metabolically flexible yet and you're not well fueled. Your body's like, “Come on now. We're starving to death. Eat, eat, eat.” It's really hard to fight against your body, telling you you're not well fueled. We are designed to eat if our body feels like we’re in a panic situation. The fact that you're bingeing, if you're not in the adjustment phase, it’s probably your body saying, “Hey, you're not fueling me enough for this amount of activity that you're doing.” I would listen, and I would probably adjust your window earlier. You might need to do two meals, and maybe you need an eight-hour window. Make a plan for how you're going to open your window, instead of just grabbing what's there. Because, again, if your body is saying you are not well fueled, it is sending you the signal to eat whatever's around. It's really hard to ignore that driven, I must eat more, when it's your body, really having that physiological reason that you're not well fueled. The urge to binge can really let you know you're not fueling yourself well enough.

That's not the only reason people binge. I don't want people to think the only reason people binge is if that they aren't eating enough, because that's not the only reason. But the urge to binge can be a really strong indication that you're not fueling your body well enough. Then people feel weak, and they feel guilty, and they're like, “I'm so bad. What's wrong with me?” But it's not you, you're fighting biology. 

Melanie Avalon: Speaking to that, it was such a good interview, Gin. I interviewed Dr. Will Cole for his Intuitive Fasting book.

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I'm glad it was a good one.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I interviewed him-- what is today, like few days ago. He thought it was going to be well embraced, he got a lot of backlash from the intuitive eating community.

Gin Stephens: I keep my eye on fasting books and see what people are saying about them. I've read all those. They really did not like the word ‘intuitive fasting.’ That really makes me sad, because I've tried to be an intuitive eater for so many years, and read all the intuitive eating books, all of them. I did not connect with my hunger and satiety signals until I started fasting. Being an intuitive eater without fasting is when I weighed 210 pounds. I was also eating-- because they tell you and all the books, they're like, “If you're craving something, eat that thing you're craving.” Okay, so my body's craving that I go to McDonald's, I was eating that food, and I wasn't nourishing my body, so I've had enough signals. Basically, that approach to eat whatever you want, whenever you feel like you're hungry, didn't ever work for me, but coupling it with fasting-- I didn't ever mean to couple it together, but when I started fasting, I suddenly became more in tune with my hunger and satiety signals. When I started improving the quality of the food that I was eating, I got even more in touch. The way they said, “Eat whatever you want, whenever you want to, and stop when you've had enough,” worked 0% for me, but combining it with fasting and food quality was a miracle. That's why it's so sad that they didn't like his work.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, 100%. In the conversation-- it was amazing. I literally said at the end, I told him, I was like, I think this is the conversation I've enjoyed the most that I've ever had about fasting just because we dived into everything that you just said, which is basically the idea of, can you be intuitive if the situation in your body is one that is not necessarily supporting intuitive choices?

Gin Stephens: I would say the answer for me was a resounding no. I was unable to be intuitive, because if I asked myself at any point during the day, are you hungry? My body said, “Yeah,” because I wasn't nourishing my body well, but the books I read insisted that you're not judging food, you're just listening to your body and learning to do that. Well, my body was like, “Eat some more fries.” That was really bad advice from my body at the time.

Melanie Avalon: The other day, I was listening to an episode on intuitive eating with an intuitive eating person. They were saying that in their protocol, how you basically needed to learn to how you could have just one Oreo or have a root beer?

Gin Stephens: Oh, it clearly works beautifully for some people.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Some people, they don't have that addictive response to it. They can work, and maybe they struggle with Oreos, and they have food fears, but because of their type of personality, maybe they could integrate that protocol, and they could learn to have just one Oreo, but I think a lot of people are not like that. I think Oreos are designed to make you want more. They're providing no nutrition. They're not providing anything your body needs. I think people they might hear this in the intuitive eating moment and then they'll feel like failures when they can't have just one, and I don't know if that's like a healthy approach for everybody. I don't think it is.

Gin Stephens: Well, because if I had one Oreo-- right even now, if I went to my kitchen, I don't have Oreos in my kitchen but if I did, if I went to my kitchen had one Oreo, then I would be starving. Then, I would be more likely to overeat because of the cascade of response that my body would have to the Oreo. My blood glucose would crash, and then I would be eating just whatever and I'd be starving and versus if I ate highly nutritious foods, like I love Daily Harvest’s-- their bowls. If my window with one of those, I'm satisfied, because I've nourished my body. I've learned that over time. It was because of fasting that I was able to become intuitive. I love the name of his book, but, yeah, people really did not like that. [laughs] I actually think that's a beautiful name for a book. I haven't read it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited that I interviewed-- because usually with these books, I interview-- not usual, a large portion of the time I interview the authors way before the book has come out. It would have been a very different conversation if I had interviewed him before it came out because we wouldn't have focused on that debate, but because it was after it came out, that took up such a large part of what we talked about. I'm so excited to release this episode, because I think that was a really great resource.

Gin Stephens: Well, I think it's an important conversation. I would identify myself as an intuitive faster. I think I even said that in Fast. Feast. Repeat. I think I use the word ‘intuitive’ in there when I talked about it. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, dear. [laughs] No, I'm saying good thing you didn't get any backlash from--

Gin Stephens: Well, I didn't because you read all the way to that point before you-- they all didn't even read his book. They just read the title.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, we talked about that too, like how frustrating it can be when people don't even read your work and then--

Gin Stephens: You know like with Delay, Don’t Deny. Sometimes, people have read the title of Delay, Don’t Deny and think that, I'm in there telling you to eat as much food as you can. Quality doesn't matter. I didn't say that. It's any time, there's no time in Delay, Don’t Deny that I said eat whatever you want as much as you want, it does not matter, and this sounds like a review of just the title. 

Melanie Avalon: In any case, I'll put a link. Well, I don't think that'll be out by the time this comes out. 

Gin Stephens: Once it is, people can find it.

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The reason I went on that whole tangent-- well, Gin was talking about it too with her experience but I would say, Carrie-- because she says that with the bingeing she struggles with eating anything sweet and endless snacks. You don't have to have those in the house. Depending on what it is that you're eating, if you're finding certain foods are triggering binge-like behavior, I would encourage you not to buy those foods and not have them in the house, especially if there's something that, like we just said, are going just going to perpetuate the cravings and wanting more.

Gin Stephens: I agree with that. Yeah. Like Doritos, I love Doritos. I don't have them in the house. I really would eat too many. Anything cheese puffy. Do you like cheese puffs at all, like Pirate Booty or any of those different cheese puffs? I love Pirate Booty, or anything they have organic versions of all that stuff. It's still ultra-processed food, you can have organic ultra-processed foods. It just doesn't mean it's great for you just because it's organic, but I get no stop-eating signal when I eat those. I could eat an entire giant bag and feel like I've had nothing and then now I'm starving. Yeah. 

Do I never eat those foods again for the rest of my life? No, I will eat those foods, but it's best for me not to buy them and have them around a lot. It's just worth knowing yourself. You have to know yourself and what works for you and what does not. Look I'm a slow learner, I just talked about how I had red wine last night and [laughs] I keep saying no more of that, and then I'm, “Oh,” I like that that dog on squirrel. That's one of my favorite movies. I should have watched that movie again.

Melanie Avalon: I do like that movie. I had a really long conversation about squirrels last night.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's interesting. What was the context?

Melanie Avalon: The squirrels we were talking about how squirrels-- they don't have squirrels in Hawaii, I don't think, and people from Hawaii come to America and are fascinated by squirrels.

Gin Stephens: Well, I was in Connecticut one summer, and I don't know, what was it, gophers or groundhogs. I don't even know what it was. I was at the University of Connecticut, I spent a week there. It's called Confratute, and it was for gifted teachers, it was amazing. It was University of Connecticut and they have all these tunnels and you see them all over the campus. I'm like, “Oh my God, there's another one. Oh my God, there's another one.” Probably like the way people.

Melanie Avalon: And they pop up? 

Gin Stephens: Yes. they're everywhere. I'm sure that people up there like-- what was that movie, Caddyshack, where he was trying to blow them up. I could see why because they were everywhere, but they were so cute. 

Melanie Avalon: I don't think I've seen.

Gin Stephens: No, we don't have them down here. Whatever they were, they were big. 

Melanie Avalon: We're so used to our environment. Like the animals that we are used to, if we had never seen them before, and then we saw them, we will be so fascinated.

Gin Stephens: Oh yeah, I went on a dolphin cruise when I was at the beach. My friend, Sheri, and I, we went out on a boat and we got to see dolphins and it was amazing. I was so excited. I don't think I would ever get tired of dolphins though.

Melanie Avalon: They just seem like really wonderful animals. Oh, can I tell you a fun Mother's Day story speaking of animals?

Gin Stephens: Of course. 

Melanie Avalon: We have been having a bird trapped in our garage every day. Chad likes to have the garage door open during the day and then we close it at night. Every morning when I get up, there's been a bird in the garage flapping around and I'm like, “Why are these birds getting in our garage?” I open the door, and the birds fly out. This morning again, bird in the garage. Then, I realized we have a bird nest in our garage. It's a mama bird. It's not different birds every day. It happened while I was at the beach, Chad apparently kept the garage door open all the time because I would be the one who would close it. She had time while I was at the beach to come in and build a nest and lay her eggs. Chad looked up there. We've got eggs in there. Today's Mother's Day and we have a mama bird and so we're not going to close the garage, we’re just going to lock the house door at night until the birds vacate the premises. 

Melanie Avalon: That's exciting. 

Gin Stephens: I thought that was a good Mother's Day story. 

Melanie Avalon: I love that. 

Gin Stephens: She's a mama bird, and she is just like, “Oh, no, I'm trapped in here again.” “Oh, well.” [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: It's like, Are You My Mother?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Oh, I love that book.

Melanie Avalon: Although-- did we talk about this? I was revisiting that in my head. Technically, the bird would have thought the first thing that it saw was its mother. It would have thought the rock.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because it would imprint on whatever it was, that's what they do. That is true. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: They wouldn't go around keep asking. [laughs] 

Gin Stephens: That's true, but that is a great, great book.

Melanie Avalon: Well, do you want to do the one quick, clean, fast question that's really short? 

Gin Stephens: Sure. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, one last question from Joshy. The subject is “Clean Fast Question.” Thank you, guys, so much. I love you both and all the endless knowledge you have about the subject. Would it be okay to chew fennel seeds or cloves during the clean fast instead of sugar-free gum to help as a breath freshener? Thanks.”

Gin Stephens: The answer is no. [laughs] That was easy. No, you don't want to chew anything. Don't chew anything. Don't chew fennel seed. Anything that's food like. Fennel seeds, that's food, cloves, food, food, food flavor. You don't want that. Also, don't chew the sugar free gum, you don't want anything that's sweet. I'm sorry. As far as a breath freshener goes, I just have really found I brush my tongue if I need to. I've got Wow Drops, which are just peppermint oil, chlorophyll, they don't have any sweeteners, but I don't use them all the time. Like, if I'm somewhere in public, and I'm going to be running into people, then I'll use some, but most of the time, I mean, my breath is not bothering anybody but me. Especially now in the mask era, right, Melanie? With breath, we're like protected. Brushing my tongue makes a huge difference.

Melanie Avalon: Using a tongue scraper for me. Have you ever used a tongue scraper? 

Gin Stephens: No, I just brush. I've heard a lot of people talk about tongue scrapers. I just haven't ever had one. 

Melanie Avalon: Huge difference. I'll put a link in the show notes. They make a huge difference. Yeah, I have sort of an oral breath fixation. 

Gin Stephens: Like you really don't want to have bad breath.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. 

Gin Stephens: Just stay six feet away from anyone else. I don't get really close to strangers anyway. When I was a teacher, I learned when I would bend over kids’ desk, I didn't like exhale all over them. I mean, I don't know. I've kept my breath to myself whenever I could. No one ever said, “Oh, my God, your breath is so bad, Dr. Stephens.” They would have.

Melanie Avalon: They would have. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, my Lord, children, they would have. Yeah, they would have said your breath is bad if my breath was bad, but I tried not to breathe it on them. Even when I was fasting, because towards the end, I was drinking my black coffee and I was an intermittent faster, nobody complained.

Melanie Avalon: I just put the peppermint, and the peppermint oil in little spray bottles and I obsessively carry them around.

Gin Stephens: But, yeah, I would use the Wow Drops if I felt like I needed to get close to somebody. Oh, let me tell you one thing not to do. Do not use Wow Drops and then put on a mask. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I've done that with my peppermint. 

Gin Stephens: It will burn your eyes. 

Melanie Avalon: I've done that. 

Gin Stephens: We went to Costco yesterday because, again, now I'm free. I can go to all the stores as much as I want. Like I forgotten how to get around town, I've been stuck at home doing all this work. Chad and I are walking through Costco, and we still have the mask requirement at Costco, and so I had just used some Wild Drops and I put on my mask. I was like, whoa, bad idea, and my nose was burning too.

Melanie Avalon: Like I said, I make my own with peppermint, and sometimes, I make it stronger by accident than I mean to, and yes if you do that in the put on the mask, like crying.

Gin Stephens: It's like, wow. [laughs] Anyway, yeah, so I'm sorry for that. No fennel seeds, no clove, no sugar free gum. Peppermint is really gray area, you may find peppermint does not work for you. It fortunately does work for me. My body does not consider that to be food.

Melanie Avalon: Works for me 100%.

Gin Stephens: But it doesn't work for everybody. I've definitely had people say that it does not work for them. Their body perceives it as food coming in.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I find that so fascinating, because for me, it just like kills my appetite completely.

Gin Stephens: It's just to me unrelated to appetite. Do you know what makes me hungry though? I've realized recently that it's shocking that my body does perceive as food, it's on the yes list. It's okay for fasting. Yeah. I thought this was true, and I now know that it is.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so it's not coffee. 

Gin Stephens: No. Coffee does not make me hungry. Unless it's a nitro cold brew. I can't have those because my body thinks that sweet and creamy. 

Melanie Avalon: Is it a tea? 

Gin Stephens: No, I don't like any tea. I don't have any tea.

Melanie Avalon: I'm trying to think what else would be-- so it's on the yes list? 

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It's not a beverage. I'm just trying to think like what you would be--

Gin Stephens: Although you could put it in a beverage.

Melanie Avalon: I'm trying to think what you would be using that you could put it in a beverage. I'm very much invested in this.

Gin Stephens: Something you could put in a beverage that doesn't break the fast. Some people like go crazy about telling you you're supposed to have this all the time. Particularly keto people. 

Melanie Avalon: Ice. 

Gin Stephens: No, ice does not.

Melanie Avalon: No, not lemon. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, definitely not lemon. Oh, this is really fun.

Melanie Avalon: This is really fun. I love guessing games.

Gin Stephens: I've stumped you. When I say it, you're going to be like, “Oh, yeah, of course.” You're going to know. What is it that people in the keto community who also do fasting always tell everybody no matter what their ailment, you need to have some blank? 

Melanie Avalon: Water?

Gin Stephens: No. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, salt. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Salt makes me starving. Starving. I was refilling a saltshaker recently during the fast like, I have the little pink Redmond salt granules and I was refilling it because it came from Amazon. That's where I order it. I was pouring it in the little saltshaker and dropped one on the table and I'm like, “Oh, I'm going to have a little piece of salt and I popped it in my mouth and then I was starving.” Like, starving. Starving, my body is like, “We’re going to eat now.” I mean, it was close to time to eat. I mean, it was like, so immediate.

Melanie Avalon: That is so interesting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but I've noticed it before and I thought could this be true, but it was really a very clear connection for me. I'm also someone who really craves salty things. I wonder if that salty is like a real signal to me that it's food. I don't know. I mean, it's really whatever your brain is thinking about. My brain was like time to eat. It was a signal to my brain, even though salt does not break the fast because it's a mineral. Anyway, I'm not somebody popping salt crystals [laughs] today, typically. Anyway, so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: I was so confused. I was like, “What can it be?” Oh, my goodness. Well, in any case, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions to the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode214. You can also get all the stuff we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike, and you can follow us on Instagram, still my favorite place to be, sort of, minus not liking taking pictures. I'm MelanieAvalon, Gin is GinStephens. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it. 

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I'm happy that you have your life back.

Gin Stephens: Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: And Happy Mother's Day.

Gin Stephens: It feels amazing. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, bye-be. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!