#474 – 4:3 Intermittent Fasting, Estrogen Detox, Fasting’s Effects on Eating Behaviors and Appetite Hormones, Reducing Binge Eating, Tobacco And Fasting, Weight Loss Plateaus, Sexual Assault Awareness, And More!
Welcome to Episode 474 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.
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TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 474 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.
I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 474 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?
Barry Conrad
Hey, Melanie, how are you doing? I'm doing a really, really, really great. It's a beautiful, beautiful, sunny, warm, balmy, New York, spring kind of day, maybe a day that you wouldn't really like, but I love it so much. My mood's really high, spirits are lifted, and yeah, I'm feeling great.
How about yourself? How's your day?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I wish I was feeling that way. I'm good. Also warm hair. I actually have something really big happening next week and I'm trying to decide if I should talk about it. I feel like I should. It's just a little bit of a, it's a little bit of a sensitive topic. So if listeners have like young children listening, maybe they can fast forward a little bit. So yeah, I think I'll talk about it.
I think it's important. So when this comes out, this will be May. So this will have passed. I've really got to get better about like seeing when these are coming out. But April is actually sexual assault awareness month. And I am going to be doing a lot of campaigning and advocacy surrounding all of it and actually on Tuesday, like our Tuesday upcoming. So this will be way in the past by the time this airs, but I'm actually, I'm filing a civil lawsuit against the, I talked about this before on the show in the past. You know what? Now I realized when I talked about it, it was with Jen. So it must have been that long ago. I was sexually assaulted at a massage parlor. And so we, there was a criminal case for that. And that wrapped up. When did that wrap up? I think last year, but we're doing a civil lawsuit against the actual establishment. And I'm excited because we're going to, in addition to the lawsuit, we're going to have a press conference to help raise awareness surrounding all of this. I want people to know that I think not that this is good, but I think things like this are more common than a lot of people realize. And I think people don't really talk about it, or things might happen to people and they don't really know what to do. So I'm just trying to speak more openly about it to make people know that if something happens to them, you know, they can speak up, go to law enforcement, tell somebody, I actually spent the, like this past week, I read the entirety of the Georgia law surrounding massage parlors. And that's something I learned. They can't be called massage parlors. They have to be called, they can't use the word parlor actually. I learned so much about all the laws. But what was really motivating about it was I realized there actually are a lot of laws to protect people in these situations. I do think though, there's a problem with like funding and enforcement and, you know, how often are establishments being checked on to make sure that they're following all the protocols. So for example, like in Georgia, there is supposed to be like licenses on the wall with the pictures of the practitioners, you're actually supposed to and this has not happened to me at most places I've gone, but you're supposed to actually give written consent before you have a massage. But there's actually a lot of laws protecting people, which is really nice. So I am just taking this moment to spread some awareness and we will see how it goes next week with the filing the lawsuit and having the press conference. So I'm just going to share that.
Barry Conrad
That is really, first of all, thank you so much for sharing that. That's a brave thing to share, Mel, and it's so important, the advocacy for this topic.
This happened so much. I was just talking to a friend who told me that she was sexually assaulted at a job of hers in the past as well. That happened so much. All people, there's blurred lines even at parties or even with friends, quote unquote, friends. I just think this is so important and powerful that you're sharing this and using your platform to do that. I really hope it goes well at the press conference. Do you have to speak yourself at it as well? Are you going to appear?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's like me being interviewed. So it's a lot. I feel like it's baptism by fire just because I mean, I've never filed a lawsuit before. So that's a whole experience and like working with lawyers. And I have really, really amazing lawyers who are very mission driven. So I'm really grateful to be working with them.
And then I'm actually going to be partnering with so Alana Stott, who has been a guest on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast twice. She is an incredible woman who does amazing things. She was actually given an award to her by the King of England for her work supporting vulnerable women. She runs the Blue Rose Foundation, which works to address the systemic issue of both sexual assault, human trafficking, all the things. So I'm very honored to be partnered with her.
I'm very grateful to have a platform to be able to talk about it. And yeah, if people just go to rain.org, which is r a i n n dot o r g, you can read all the statistics. And there's just so many statistics, like 443,000 is the estimated amount of people 12 and over who experienced sexual violence each year in the US. 54% are between the ages of 18 to 34. One in six women has experienced attempted or completed rape in her lifetime. One in 33 men the same. So it's just in the you can read a whole lot more statistics there. But I yeah, I just thank you as well for speaking about it too. And so friends, listeners, just want people to know that there are resources out there. And I know can be hard to speak up if something happens. But I think it's really important that we start speaking up about this. And I'm just sorry that this happens. Absolutely.
Barry Conrad
Absolutely. Do you feel, Mel, that this has been going on for so long, waiting for this press conference and filing the lawsuit, what are you feeling right now at this point?
Did you expect to feel the way that you do? Do you feel differently? Do I expect it to feel
Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. That's a really good question. And this is actually very helpful, because I haven't done any. I've just been like preparing by working on the actual lawsuit, so revisiting everything. And then, like I said, reading through all the laws and reading through the statistics and things like that. So as far as like how I'm feeling, I'm nervous because... So I did do one news interview on this prior.
It actually happened last week when... Not last week, when journalists were covering another case that my lawyers did prior to me, which involved the same perpetrator. So that was actually my... I was really nervous about that interview, because that was my first time ever talking about it publicly to the news, to the press. So I just don't really know what to expect. So I'm nervous, but I'm gonna try to be as prepared as possible with, you know, the statistics. And I will say what's really interesting. Two things. One, I can hands down, hands down say I'm grateful it happened to me. No question, because it has really made me really passionate about the issue. So I am grateful that it happened, because I can talk about it now. Interestingly, I remember I used to see people talking about things like this. And I used to wonder if that became their entire identity, which I don't want it to be my entire identity. So I have this weird... It's like, how do I talk about this freely and openly and ongoingly and also not make it like part of my identity, if that makes sense? That's something I kind of struggle with. But that aside, I don't feel like it's part of my identity is the point. Like I don't think about it 24 seven or anything like that. But sometimes I feel like if this is all people see of me, they might think this is like the entirety of me, which that's not the case, if that makes sense.
Barry Conrad
I totally understand. And also, it's one of those things that you can't control, you know?
It's like people are either going to stop there and that might be their only, quote unquote, encounter with you or impression of you. And some people will stop and research and find out more. And also, it's just one of those things like where people often take us for face value, especially issues like this. And also, it's again, like you're so brave to speak out about it in spite of how you might appear. And I think you're just doing it, shows that you're doing it for the right reasons and that you'll be fine. You know, you're not carrying away from the topic and what's happening, which is awesome.
Melanie Avalon
Well, thank you so much. I really, I really appreciate it.
And we shall see how it goes on Tuesday. The good thing is I imagine, because I do think, I think a lot of the news stations will be there. I'm actually not sure exactly what it's gonna look like, but I'm hoping one of the reporters will be the one that I interviewed with before. So that would be nice.
Yeah, we shall see.
Barry Conrad
Yeah, let me know, keep me posted so I can tune in or is it going to be a live situation or something pre-recorded, you know?
Melanie Avalon
I actually don't know. The last thing I did, they prerecorded it, but they aired it like the next day. So, and we're doing it on, so because April is sexual assault awareness month, we're actually doing it. So April 7th is actually day of action for the entire month. So it's like the day where this is really high caliber information and like, there's a spotlight on it in the news. So that's why we picked that day.
Big times, big days. I know. So stay tuned on that note. How are things in your life? It's been a while since we've recorded personally. People don't realize that, but.
Barry Conrad
It is really funny in podcast land. People just get the episodes every week, but sometimes listeners, we go a couple of weeks without actually recording. So, uh, we haven't caught up properly until now. So this is all in real time and this is how we roll.
I most recently wrapped the whole South by Southwest situation, which was such an amazing experience. It was great. It was just absolutely one of the best experiences I've honestly ever had professionally and personally, it was just incredible. And for those who don't know, it's a massive annual festival in Austin where leaders in music, film, and TV tech innovation and more gather. And it's, it's, it's amazing. And I got to be the face and host of Australia house there. And the energy was just constant. Every time I walked in there, it felt like something massive was happening. You've got panels going on, creative connecting people, just having those. This could turn into something kind of conversations. And for me, my favorite would have to be moderating the film panels. That was so now that was so fulfilling sitting there with actors, directors, producers, geeking out and talking about how the sausage is made for work was just so cool and like how projects come together, what it takes to get a film made setbacks, the winds, all the above. I feel like it was a real stake in the ground for me to being here now, you know, and in the States, which is great. And I love that it wasn't just so full of surface level conversations. The conversations were really genuine and you could feel the audience really leaning into it and you walk out of there, you're suddenly in this completely different conversation about I'm learning so much about AI and, and all these industries I don't really know much about. So that was great too. So I have to give a, have to definitely give a shout out to Stephen Marshall and Laura Leventhal from the American Australian association for having me like, thank you so much. Cause what they pulled off with Australia house was incredible. Like, so Mel, yeah, I'm just still in a high and I'm super proud to be an Aussie here in the States. And I thought that, well, I don't know what I thought, but I didn't think I'd be Aussie would Australia be following me so closely, you know, still.
Melanie Avalon
So amazing, oh my goodness. So when you were, so you were moderating the talks, right?
Barry Conrad
Yeah, so I had two jobs. So one was hosting Australia House in general, like, you know, welcome everybody, like, you know, linking from event to event, and then also moderating the actual film projects. So sitting on stage with like a panel of the crew and the cast and the directors and actually talking and I guess banter with BCing or the IF podcasting on stage, kind of like, you know, preparing and getting questions ready. And it was really great.
It was so much fun. And it's funny as well, because you don't realize how podcasting and connecting with people prepares you for things like that.
Melanie Avalon
Did you watch all the films before?
Barry Conrad
We got to get a cheat. Some of them weren't released until the actual festival, so we got a cheat sheet of what it was about. Some of them we had trailers, some of them we had the actual shorts. But we just had to deep dive as much as we could, because as well, some people came at the last minute and whatnot.
Because as you know, there was this massive flight situation at the time. This is in the future now. So people's flights were getting canned. So it's like, who's coming? Who's not? So you just had to kind of be ready for whatever. And so that in itself was also good, because it's being thrown into the deep end and just having to think on your feet and having your experience kick in and just having to do it, which I love so much.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I was super curious thinking about that because I was wondering how you prepared to like have the interviews and ask the questions if you know, if you hadn't seen all the movies, but they, they gave you like lots of information.
Barry Conrad
Yes info and but the ones that we didn't have it was really a case of heck I'm just gonna step out for a second and literally just quickly doing some research for people that just got added last minute things like that so. It was it was great it was yeah it was a real lesson in flying by the seat of your pants and also just flying the ozzy flag and stepping into it all with confidence was awesome.
Melanie Avalon
What was your favorite interview?
Barry Conrad
Gosh. Speaking to Linda Duncombe was really great.
So she was an executive producer of The Queen's Jewels and her and her director, you know, business partners while they were on their talking. And the funny thing about why I chose her was when I went to G'day. And Melanie, you were like, is it G'day? The funny thing is the connection is when I was lining up for the Red Carpet at G'day USA, this gregarious, fun, blonde, tall, amazing Aussie woman was standing in front of me just on the carpet, fun banter, so much fun. She is Linda Duncombe. So we were just like, unbeknownst to us, like on lining up next thing, interviewing her about, you know, the film and stuff. So it was really cool. And just the two weeks of separation, you never know who you meet. You just, you know,
Melanie Avalon
It was great. Oh my goodness. Well, I am so proud of you. Look at you.
Come into the U.S. and immediately, I mean, you go to one of the coolest conferences that we have here in the U.S. for this industry. Like honestly, like everybody knows about South by Southwest and you're like the face of Australia. Like, that's amazing.
Barry Conrad
I only wish I got to see more of it and I know Mel offline as well. We tried to coordinate some hangs and stuff with a mutual friend that you had, but it's too big next time, next time when there's more time.
Melanie Avalon
No, definitely. There will be many more to come, so congrats.
Barry Conrad
Thank you.
Melanie Avalon
All right. Well, so many things. Shall we jump into some fasting related things?
Barry Conrad
I reckon we should.
Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Do you have a study to start us off with?
Barry Conrad
I have a study this week and it's called the effects of 4-3, intermittent fasting on eating behaviors and appetite hormones, a secondary analysis of a 12-month behavioral weight loss intervention. So, this study was carried out at the University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus by Matthew Breit and Caldwell, Danielle Austin-Dorf and their team and it was published in Nutrients in 2025. So now what they did here was follow 165 adults who are overweight or obese, mostly women with an average age of 42, over a full year, so 12 months. And that's important because a lot of, well most studies that I've come across anywhere only run for definitely not anywhere near 12 weeks, maybe a few weeks or a couple months. So this gives us a much clearer picture of what actually happens over time.
They split people into two groups. One group followed a 4-3 intermittent fasting approach. So that means three days a week they ate only about 20% of their normal calories, so pretty low intake on those days and then on the other four days they ate normally. So that the second group did daily calorie restriction, so just ate fewer calories every single day, no fasting. And this is a really fair comparison because of the time and also they really, really, really tracked the variables. So both groups were given the same total weekly calorie target and everyone was encouraged to do about 300 minutes of moderate exercise a week, so it wasn't just about one group trying harder than the other group in any way. But where it gets really interesting is like over that 12 months, the fasting group actually improved how they behaved around food, which really caught my attention.
So their binge eating went down and to explain that to people who might not know, binge eating means when you're eating large copious amounts of food with a feeling of losing control and that situation really improved. So uncontrolled eating also went down, which is that feeling of not being able to stop once you start. In contrast, the daily calorie restriction group actually got worse in both those areas over time. So the longer they were trying to eat less every day, the more they actually struggled with control. And the researchers, they also looked at emotional eating, which I know a lot of people do experience and that's when you're eating because of stress or mood rather than just hunger and something called cognitive restraint. So for those who don't know what that means, that just means you're constantly using your willpower to try and hold yourself back from eating, wowsers. And so in the fasting group, the people who improved the most in those areas were also the ones who lost the most weight. So that link didn't just show up in the calorie restriction group at all. So eating less every single day didn't lead to a better control or a better relationship with food necessarily. They also measured appetite hormones.
Barry Conrad
So you've got your leptin, which signals that fullness, ghrelin, which increases hunger, PYY, which helps you feel satisfied, and BDNF, which is involved in brain function and appetite regulation. Both groups, Mel, showed normal changes you'd expect with any sort of weight loss. So leptin went down a bit, ghrelin went up a bit, but there were also no meaningful differences between the two groups. So the benefits seen in the fasting group weren't because of hormonal changes.
They were because of the structure of the actual fasting. So zooming out, what does that actually mean? From what I get from this, it sort of suggested to me that intermittent fasting can really help people feel more in control around food over time, less reactive, and just reaching for whatever's on the shelf or reaching for whatever's in the grocery store, less emotional eating, less of that sort of chaotic feeling around eating. And for me, that's really stood out the most. It's not just about eating less food. It's about building a pattern that actually helps your behavior. And those changes held over a full year. So Mel, I reckon this is really super encouraging for people out there listening who may want structure, but without feeling like they have to, quote, unquote, diet all day. What do you think?
Melanie Avalon
Wow. Yeah. So I love the study. It's really, really interesting that they had no significant changes between the hunger-related hormones in both groups, and yet they still saw the benefits in the fasting group.
You know, because then it's like that tells you that like physiologically, it tells you that like you were saying that there's something about beyond the actual hormones that has more to do with like behavior and I guess your perspective and your experience of it that is having such great effects beyond just the literal, like what's changing in your body. That's really, really interesting. I don't think I would have expected that. I don't know what I would have expected, honestly. I also, obviously, I just love that with fasting, you can get the benefits that people are so often seeking with calorie restriction, which is, you know, weight loss and, you know, a better feeling of body composition and feeling better in their skin, but without that crazy restrictive feeling and feeling like you need to overcompensate and binge and emotionally eat and all the things. And we've been talking about studies like this for a while, but it's really nice to keep talking about them because I think one of the biggest like PR problems fasting has in general is that I think when people hear fasting, they think, oh, that's overly restrictive or that's going to make you, people think like, oh, if you fast, that's going to make you binge after. They think it's like it will have the opposite effect. So it's really nice to hear that that is not the case. And I also love that it's a year, that is a long study.
Barry Conrad
That is a long study. I was like, these people, that's a long time to sign up for anything a year for especially a being part of a study. So cute as to those people. I'm curious to see where they're at now, but that I was just fascinated generally, the behavioral piece.
Like I did not expect that I will say speaking from experience, the freedom that I feel around food now versus before I started intermittent fasting. I can't even describe and that sounds cheesy, but it's so true. Nothing's off limits. And I think that's why reframing like a healthy narrative narrative around food for me personally really began with intermittent fasting. And I'm so, so happy about that.
Melanie Avalon
same here, you could not pay me to go back to when I was, you know, just eating consistently throughout the day. It was so miserable because I was always, because I love food. And so I love food and I also, it was literally just like always trying to make a decision about can I, should I, will I eat again or not? And once I start eating, can I, should I, will I stop eating or not? And then like rinse and repeat and then never really feeling satisfied because if I felt satisfied, that probably meant I ate too much, like, you know, it was, it's exhausting, honestly.
And now it's just, I don't even think about it. I function so much better in the fasted state, like energetically and doing my work and everything and mood wise and just all the things. And then I get to eat all the, all the food every night.
Barry Conrad
Drink the wine, eat the food.
Melanie Avalon
Drink the wine, eat the food. So awesome, awesome study. Thank you so much for finding it. And relatively, you know, July 25 as well, so yay. Okay, shall we jump into some fasting questions?
Barry Conrad
Uh, first question that we have this week comes from Amy and Amy says, I'm wondering what foods would support the detox of estrogen from my body and which foods I should avoid if that's my goal and any other hormone optimizing tips you might have to offer. No, only what do you reckon?
Melanie Avalon
Awesome, Amy. Thank you so much for your question. Okay, so first of all, so let's talk about what detoxing estrogen actually means. So, estrogen is a sex hormone. We have, you know, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone. We need estrogen. Estrogen is a good thing. And at the same time, our lifestyle today often leads to estrogen dominance, where we have too much estrogen, a lot that has to do with our exposure to endocrine disruptors, the food we're eating, our lifestyles.
On the flip side, you know, some women might struggle with low estrogen and might benefit from hormone replacement therapy. But regardless, so the context of detoxing estrogen, there's actually three phases to it. So, phase one is when estrogen is converted through some different enzymes. That's the first phase. And then phase two is when it's conjugated through methylation, glucuronidation, and sulfation. So basically, the estrogen that has been converted is made water soluble. And then phase three, it is eliminated. So that water soluble converted estrogen is eliminated through bile and the stool. And the gut microbiome actually plays a big role in this. People might have heard of the estribolum. And that's this process, convert all the things, estrogen. Actually, definitely check out Cynthia Thurlow, former co-host on this show, check out her new book, which is called The Menopause Gut. She dives deep into all of the science of the gut microbiome and how it relates to estrogen. I was actually talking to her today, by the way. Okay, so how can you support proper estrogen detox? And I like to think about it more as like, not so much detox, because again, estrogen in and of itself is not a quote, bad thing, we just need it in the right amounts, and we need to properly utilize it. So I like to think about it more as like, estrogen, like estrogen handling, or estrogen clearance. So foods that help support that, cruciferous vegetables, they contain a compound called glucocetalates, which are converted into sulforaphane, which people might have heard of, that actually helps support that phase one shift that I was talking about. So you can get those in things like broccoli and Brussels sprouts and cauliflower and kale. So cruciferous vegetables for the win. Also, allium vegetables, so things like garlic, onions, leeks, those can help support the production of glutathione, which supports the phase two part that I talked about, where estrogen is made water soluble. And then high fiber foods are really helpful because they can bind to conjugated estrogen in the gut, and they can help reduce reabsorption of too much estrogen, which would like recirculate throughout the blood. So those are things like flaxseed, chia berries, lentils. And then as a side note, high fiber foods, I've been doing deep dives on the gut microbiome recently. High fiber foods really help support the gut microbiome. And again, the microbiome is playing a key role in helping you moderate, modulate, deal with estrogen. You also need protein. So phase two conjugation really needs protein, and protein also helps support liver detox enzymes.
Melanie Avalon
You need amino acids for those methylation processes. So we're big fans of protein around here. So keep your protein up.
At that last phase where estrogen is eliminated in the stool, in particular, bile flow helps stimulate that. So having bitter foods can help support bile flow. So things like dandelion greens or artichoke or arugula. So those are a lot of foods if you want to specifically target your estrogen system. You also just need nutrients in general. So you need nutrients to support the whole process. You need B6, you need B12, folate, magnesium, zinc, selenium. So just making sure that you're eating a nutrient rich diet, very, very important.
And then on the flip side, if you're trying to lower your estrogen levels, you definitely want to minimize foods that are going to increase problematic estrogen levels. So that means minimizing processed foods, ultra processed foods, anything inflammatory, excess alcohol, sad day that can actually impair, I mean, people will not be shocked by that, but that can impair your liver detox pathways, and also increase circulating estrogen, high sugar raises insulin and can have a negative effect on your estrogen levels, industrial seed oils, we talk about those a lot.
So those contribute to systemic inflammation. And then, like I mentioned at the very beginning, all of these endocrine disruptors that we are exposed to, so environmentally and the plastics, they're in the food we eat, they're in our skincare and makeup, just minimizing all of that can really help your estrogen burden in general.
And then there's a lot of debate out there about soy and flax and phytoestrogen. And I literally asked this question to anybody who I think knows something about it. I'm always curious their opinion because I know personally, for me, I've been like, Oh, don't eat the soy for like a long time. That said, well, I do think I do know the majority of soy in our modern diet is processed and GMO I don't it's not the same thing as like whole foods, organic soy based products like they're having in Asia per se.
However, soy does contain phytoestrogens as does flax. And these phytoestrogens are selective estrogen receptor modulators. So what that means is that they can compete with endogenous estrogen. So they can actually be protective of your body's uptake of estrogen, but context does matter. So, you know, you want to make sure that you're getting if you are having phytoestrogens that you're having them in like whole foods form, non GMO, organic, and you know, finding what works for your body.
And then she was asking about any other hormone optimizing tips in general. So I mean, I feel like a broken record, but managing your glycemic control. So doing fasting is, you know, really going to help with that stress management and sleep. So so important, so important, they can make when we're sleep deprived, when we're stressed, it can make our hormones go haywire, it increases cortisol, it lowers progesterone, it just creates a not good hormonal state in the body.
Melanie Avalon
So supporting sleep, supporting stress, and also doing like strength training very important because that's going to improve insulin sensitivity, and support healthy estrogen balance as well. Lifestyle wise, I really, really especially like with estrogen, I'm just so big on these endocrine disruptors. So there's two, two major exposures of this to like people have in their lifestyle, I think each and every day. So skincare and makeup, I've talked about that ad nauseam. It's shocking everything that's in there.
So making sure that you're using clean brands. I love counter and crunchy. They are incredible brands. And then also your cleaning products in your house can be a big source of exposure to toxins every day. So we've started working recently with Branch Basics. And I am so excited about them. They make really epic cleaning products. And what I really, really like about how it works, I didn't know this was how it worked when I because I had heard of them before. But I thought they were like pre made products. First of all, they have a glass option that I love because plastics are a source of endocrine disruptors. So they have plastic, but they also have glass. So you can order glass bottles. And you get like a kit like a set like a starter set. And then it's so sustainable and so like, like user friendly, it's kind of like DIY cleaning without the complexity and annoyingness of making your own products because they have like their concentrate, which is their super non toxic cleaning solution with like biodegradable. It's on EWG verified, like it's really good cleaning stuff that's non toxic. And the bottles have it's just so fun mixing it up. So the bottles have like lines and it's like water line and then like concentrate line. So you just fill the bottle based on what it is because they have like, like cleaning spray for around your apartment or house or wherever you are. They have like a window, you know, like street free clean glass stuff. They have a foaming wash for your hands. They have a bathroom one. So all you do is like you pour the water into the bottle up into the line and then you top it off with the concentrate up into the next line. And then you're like good to go. And then it's so sustainable because then you have the bottles and then you just reorder the concentrate. So if you want to switch out all of your cleaning products for non toxic products to support your estrogen balance, definitely check out branch basics.
And you can get 15% off when you go to branch basics.com slash I have podcast. And definitely again, like I said, they have starter sets. So definitely get one of those but it's branch basics.com slash I have podcast use the code I have podcast for 15% off. So that was a lot of information. Barry do you have thoughts?
Barry Conrad
Mel, you answered that so comprehensively and amazingly. I don't have anything else I could add.
I was going to talk about the vegetables, the protein, which you smashed as well, the stress management, all those things, you know, sleep, all that. You covered everything. There's nothing more I can add to make that any better than what you just did. But thank you so much for your question, Amy.
Melanie Avalon
Yes, thank you, Amy.
Barry Conrad
Yeah and it's just one of those things where you know like your body is already designed to process and eliminate. Excess estrogen so i wouldn't say the goal is to force a detox you know and it's it's about support the liver support the guts stabilize your blood sugar sleep well lift heavy things manage to eat protein and hormones tend to respond pretty well to that foundation i reckon.
Melanie Avalon
I cannot agree more. And I think it's so funny because I think people hear the word detox and they're like, Oh, that means do like a juice cleanse or like a fast and really detox, like you said, it really starts with having nutrients to support detox, which a big one of those is things like protein.
Yeah, so basically giving your body all of the support that it needs so it can do what it's made to do is the key and then also reducing your exposure to all of these things in the first place. So you got this, Amy. Thank you so much for the amazing question.
Barry Conrad
You got this, Amy.
Melanie Avalon
Shall we go on to our next question?
Barry Conrad
Let's do it.
Melanie Avalon
So we have a question from Bob. The subject is plateau slash body fat loss slash tobacco use. And Bob says, first off, I love your podcast. Thanks so much for all the information. I have an hour drive to and from work each day. So I have listened to a lot of your episodes thus far. I'm addicted. I've been doing this 16 eight clean fast for 15 days thus far, but did already do a 38 hour fast to see how I handled it. So far so good. I have really enjoyed if a little background on me. I'm currently 42 years old. And in October of 2018, I started a kickboxing class. The classes kickboxing every other day and then band workouts in between. It is fairly high intensity. The diet is a balanced diet, 40% protein, 30% carbs, 30% fat. I started at a weight of 282 pounds. I'm now 230 pounds, but I've hit a plateau, which is why I'm now trying if one other note is that my body fat has been reduced from 29% to 21%. Wow. My maintenance goal weight is 210 pounds and 14% body fat. My question is whether or not any specific foods or diets can help with expediting body fat loss or if I just stick with IF.
I've also chewed tobacco for quite a while and want to quit, but it is so difficult. I was curious what chewing tobacco could be doing to me during a fasting period. I have contemplated just chewing on parsley or cilantro during a fast. Would this impact my fasting period if I did this?
I know this habit is not good, but I would be interested to hear your feedback on this subject. Thanks again for the help and I absolutely love your podcast. All right, Bob. Barry, what thoughts do you have for Bob?
Barry Conrad
Bob, first up, mate, I've got to say I really appreciate the message and I love that the show is part of your daily drive. How good is that? That's awesome. There's something about that coming time when you can really lock into it and absorb all the stuff that you're hearing. So we're stoked that you're in your ears for that, Bob.
And before I even get into your question, I also need to say what you've already done, like going from 282 down to 230, that's massive. That's not just a weight loss situation, that's a lifestyle overhaul. So well done. That's consistency, that's discipline, it's showing up over a long period of time. So don't lose sight of that just because you've hit this plateau.
And okay, let's dive into what your question is here. Plattoes at this stage, Bob, are actually pretty normal. As you get leaner, our body adapts. So metabolism adjusts, our energy expenditure drops slightly, and your body becomes more efficient. So fat loss can naturally slow down, and it does often. So that's not a failure, that's physiology and part of the ride. You also say here, you've introduced intermittent fasting, awesome. You're doing a 16-8, even tested a 38-hour fast, and you're enjoying it, so that's another big win.
You know, I reckon enjoyment equals that sustainability for the long, long game, which is what you want. Your main question you say here is, is there specific food or diet that's going to maybe accelerate or speed up the fat loss? Short answer, Bob, there's no magic food. Long answer. The research we're seeing, and we know actually supports this, that even large reviews are showing that intermittent fasting tends to produce a similar weight loss. It can produce a similar weight loss to traditional dieting over a long time, but where it does shine is how it changes your metabolic environment and how easy it is to stick to.
We just talked about earlier in the show about behavior around food, and that is such a massive win as well, and that's going to also affect the way you might reach for what's on the shelf or what's at home and what you might gravitate towards. And paired with exercise, which you're already doing, you're going to lose even more fat while preserving that lean muscle, most importantly, which I know matters to you, and as a man and matters to me as well. In terms of personally speaking, I can say that really prioritizing your protein is going to be a big, big factor because even just carrying around more muscle, Bob, means you're burning fat. So just making sure you're getting enough protein in there.
You could even try carb cycling. You could even have higher protein days paired with lower carb and higher fat or vice versa. You can play around with that to see if that shifts any body fat because sometimes for what works for one person with that combo, it doesn't work for the next person. So for me, speaking personally, when I switch to that high protein, almost no carbs, like really low carbs, I know I'm going to shed the fat or drop a whole lot of water weight as well pretty quickly.
Barry Conrad
So that's one suggestion. The lever, it's not just special foods. It's how everything works together here. So you're already doing a lot right.
You're doing your consistent training, your structured routine, you've got your foundation sorted. From here, I reckon let's dial it in even more. So refining it, keep the protein high. I'd also look at recovery. So what are you doing to rest? What are you consuming in between workouts? You're doing your high intensity there, your resistance, and your fasting, and fasting is a natural stress on our system anyway. So what are you doing to recover as well?
So things like sleep, your recovery, your stress levels, even if they're slightly off, fat loss can stool more than it needs to. Even when everything else is quote unquote, like dialed in and perfect. So that's something that could be a tweak. Sometimes as well, I would say, and I know it's easiest here than done, but sometimes next level isn't more intensity. Do you know what I mean? So not pushing more fasting, not pushing more training. It's actually better recovery. And a lot of people don't like to hear that because it sounds like, I'm not doing anything, but the doing is in the rest as well. About the tobacco piece, thanks for sharing that, by the way, you know, a lot of people chew tobacco and nicotine does have some effects on appetite and metabolism, but Bob, it's not going to do you any favors overall. So it is a stressor again on the body and research also shows that fasting is not like a magic pool. It doesn't cancel out those effects necessarily. It just changes how the body processes nicotine. So from an overall health standpoint, moving to quitting it at some point is the boss move, I reckon.
Going for that, you know, in your time. Your idea of using pasta or cilantro, love cilantro, by the way, I actually get that. Now, from a strict fasting perspective. And chewing anything isn't really a clean fast because it's still, you're taking in food and you're going to trigger that digestive response. But I'm being real with you, if that's a stepping stone to quitting tobacco, it's better to take that trade in the short term.
The bigger win is getting off the tobacco. So you don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water kind of thing. So you can tighten up your fast later. Zooming out again, let's look at where you are. Now, you've lost your significant amount of weight, Bob, you've built your strong habits, you're still building them, you've added fasting, you're training so much now you're in that phase where it's all about the patients. The patients matters more than the hacks right now.
So as I said, again, keep your protein high, stay consistent with your fasting, prioritize that recovery and sleep and train smart, give your body time. Your goal of 210 is insight. If you can get to where you got already, I have no doubt you're going to get there. And lower body fat is absolutely achievable from here. It's just going to come slower than that first phase. So honestly, that's where the real transformation happened and you're already doing it. So well done, Bob. Melanie, what do you think?
Melanie Avalon
That was an incredible, awesome answer to all of the things. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I mean, I really echo you, you've said all that so well, and I'll just emphasize even more, so again, Bob, you've made incredible, incredible gains.
No pun intended with everything you've only been doing as at the time of writing this question, only, you know, 15 days of fasting. So that is not a long time. I know he did the, like the 38 hour fast before that, but only two weeks into fasting, basically I would keep writing it out before bringing in the heavier guns with like different dietary adjustments and things like that, because you can always make, you can always like try things in the future to, you know, make even more progress, but you relatively recently, again, at the time of this question, which might be a little bit old, but you relatively recently had just started fasting. So like give the fasting time to kind of kick in and for you to experience the benefits from that. So I would, I would literally just like keep writing out the fasting. And like Barry was saying, focusing on the protein intake to both support your hunger and your metabolism and your satiety levels and also your muscle, which is going to be key during all of this. And then, you know, maybe after you've done this a month, if you're still in this plateau phase or still not making the progress that you want to see, that's when I would tweak things a little bit more, which is you could look at, you know, because he doesn't actually say what easy and he says, he says the macros, but he doesn't say, okay, so the macros are like our balance, like 30% carbs, 30% fat. So something I would try, if you're not experiencing the results that you want to be experiencing in like a month, then try maybe either a low carb or a low fat, higher carb diet, and see if, you know, skewing the macros one way or the other, you know, helps you break through that plateau.
And people are sometimes surprised. Some people do better with low carbs. Some people do better with low fat. Some people do better switching back and forth. Also, of course, focusing on whole foods, not getting those foods from processed foods, all of these things can really help. And then to echo and talk about the tobacco. So it's interesting because since you want, I wonder, and I know this is like a big thing about habits, especially with like people who are smoking or chewing tobacco, a lot of it is not actually like nicotine addiction per se. I mean, that is obviously a part of it. And at the same time, a huge part of that, a huge part of it is just the habit. So like the environmental cues, like they, like people associate that habit with stress relief, or there might be like an oral fixation part to it, you know, we're like, and I, which I'm, I'm guessing that is part of it because you're wanting to replace it with chewing on something else. So to me, that says that it's something about like the chewing habit that's probably kind of addictive for you beyond any of nicotine's actual addictive potential. So like the question is, and, and anytime we're like chewing during the fast.
Melanie Avalon
Chewing is something that historically, we would only be doing while eating. Like back in the day as hunter-gatherers, we weren't really, well, I don't know. They might, I don't know if they went around chewing on like leaves and stuff for their, but in general, like when you're chewing, it's because you're eating. So if you can, you know, embrace the fasting as a time of not eating and cut yourself off from that chewing habit, I think that will be very helpful.
And if the actual, you know, nicotine addiction is a part of the chewing tobacco, because I don't know like the, I don't know the extent of how much nicotine is actually in chewing tobacco versus like smoking, for example, but I am actually a fan of nicotine patches, which I have talked about on the show. Like I literally wear them for their cognitive benefits. So, you know, if you could, and the nice thing about patches is they don't have that chewing habit associated with them or smoking habit associated with them. It's literally just like putting on a patch. So they're easier to wean off of, in my opinion, because you can just stop putting the patch on or you can like titrate down, titrate up, whatever it may be. I echo what Barry was saying, encouraging you about getting off of the chewing tobacco habit. I, it's interesting because I did find one study looking at like chewing tobacco specifically. It was looking at not, quote, non-smokeless forms of nicotine consumption, i.e. not cigarettes, but like tobacco instead. And it actually found that it was not associated with weight loss. Like people might, because people associate like smoking and nicotine with weight loss, but chewing tobacco might be a little bit different. And then at least in the one study I read, it was associated with weight gain, interestingly enough. So whatever, but also studies find the opposite as well. So the findings are mixed, but I do think with chewing tobacco compared to, it's not as intense in the direction of a weight loss connection that there is with like straight up nicotine or smoking. So anything you can do to, like Barry was saying, to move out of that habit, I think will be really great.
And what's really key, and you can, there are a lot of like books on like breaking habits and things like that. What's really key, at least for me, is like replacing it. Like it's really hard to just stop doing something. So you need to like replace the cue with something else, which it sounds like you're trying to do with the parsley or the cilantro. The thing is, like we were saying, chewing parsley and cilantro, technically you're like chewing a food related item. So probably better than the tobacco. I mean, yes, better than the tobacco, I would say. That said, not the ideal alternative. So I would work on breaking that habit as best as you can, but you're doing an amazing job. Really, really epic with all of the exercise and the weight loss and all the things. Any other thoughts from you, Barry?
Barry Conrad
No, you're killing it, seriously. And please let us know how you go. I mean, 15 days from the point you wrote that, so let us know where you are now, what your progress is, whether you're closer to your target. Keep us posted.
But thank you so much for writing in and we're wishing you the best. You got this.
Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes. OK, shall we have our proverbial breaking of the fast moment?
Barry Conrad
Let's do it.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, I'm going to give you a choice.
Barry Conrad
Okay.
Melanie Avalon
Wow, a choice. I know.
I have two Disney restaurants. One is brand new. It's in Disneyland Paris and it's like on the finer dining side. And then one is a staple that's been around for a long time that I'm dying to go to that I haven't been to that has an interesting like antics involved.
Barry Conrad
I'm going to go with that one because that sounds, I'm curious, the interesting antics and yeah, let's go with that one.
Melanie Avalon
So, I am dying to go to this restaurant. It is called Whispering Canyon Cafe. It's at Disney's Wilderness Lodge, which is one of their hotels. Although, wait, is Wilderness Lodge the one where you stay in, like, oh, it's that one. It's the pretty one. Okay. Yeah. So, it's actually a very stunning-looking hotel based on America's Great Northwest. But apparently, this restaurant called Whispering Canyon, apparently, it's Western-inspired fare with all-you-can-eat skillets. But they have, quote, shenanigans because apparently, the server's there. It's all a very, like, dry sense of humor. Apparently, they all act like they hate you. Not really, but, like, kind of. And apparently, they do just, like, crazy, weird, funny things. Like, I don't know. Like, if you ask for, like, ketchup, they bring you, like, 12 bottles of ketchup. They, like, throw straws at you. Like, if you ask for a refill, they bring you, like, a massive refill. They basically just, like, make fun of you. It sounds really fun.
That sounds fun. This place, yeah, this is a vibe. We should go. And they have all-you-can-eat skillets featuring meat. Oh, my God. That's heaven to me. I know. So, I really want to know. Let me see. Hold on.
Barry Conrad
I want to look up one of these.
Melanie Avalon
I want like a list of things that they do. Okay, let's see.
Okay, so some things that they might do, for example, yeah, so asking for catch-up often results in the server shouting, leading to other guests bringing all available catch-up bottles to your table until it is overflowing. They have jail time. If misbehaving, complaining, or being rowdy might result in guests, especially kids, being placed in a jail, quote, jail, large refills. If you ask for a refill, they bring in like a massive picture, like instead of your glass. Let's see, throwing items. They playfully throw things at you. Horse races. Children are sometimes asked to grab stick horses and race around the restaurant. Sometimes they dump massive piles of straw on you. If you wear white, they'll make you wear a bib.
I really want to go. I want to go. That would be fun to work at too.
Barry Conrad
I reckon too, the ships would probably go by quickly because you have to do all these antiques, right?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I remember thinking like, when I would go to Disney World, if I had to work at a ride, I would want to work at Haunted Mansion for two reasons. One, you're inside the whole time and it's cold. Two, they don't smile or anything. It would be the perfect job where you don't have to worry about being in a good mood because they're all like deadpan.
You could be like sleep deprived and totally be on point. In character, that's so funny. Yeah, so okay. Shall we look at the menu? Oh, and sorry. So listeners, friends, the purpose of this part of the show is when we have our proverbial breaking of the fast because the benefits of fasting are not just from fasting, they're also from what you eat as well. So we like to celebrate the role of eating in this part of the show and feature fun restaurants. So Whispering Cane and I will see you next week.
Barry Conrad
diving into the menu here, going dinner menu, right?
Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes, any starters for you?
Barry Conrad
You know what, this sounds really typical, but I love nachos. The burnt ends nachos sound really good.
It's topped with beef brisket, barbecue pulled pork, cheese sauce, maple chipotle, barbecue and fresh salsa. Let's go, I'd love that.
Melanie Avalon
awesome. I'm going to pass on the trailblazing starters. And then you can so like I said, so they have like entrees, like actual entrees, but then they have these skillets.
Barry Conrad
I wonder how big they are.
Melanie Avalon
the skillets yeah if you look at if you look on like okay i'm looking at pictures on yelp they look pretty big they're bottomless
Barry Conrad
That's incredible.
Melanie Avalon
I'm pretty.
Barry Conrad
That's amazing. See, that reason is enough for me to go, right? For both of us.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Oh my gosh, I'm looking at pictures. They have a restroom pass. Are you gonna get a skillet?
Barry Conrad
Yeah, heck yeah. I'm going to do the one that's jumping out of me.
Well, two are the pig, which is braised pork belly, barbecued pork ribs, slur smoked pulled pork, quote unquote, piggy wings, western style sausage, smashed potatoes, which I love, buttered corn, sautéed green beans. And also I want to get now the land and sea skillet, which is house smoked salmon, citrus herb chicken, spicy plant-based sausage, charred portobello, barbecued cauliflower, roasted potatoes, roasted carrots, sautéed green beans. Just to start with those two, but there's more to come.
Melanie Avalon
I'm I wonder if they have like make your own skillet. Let me let me probably not okay.
I think I would get peace if you're getting the pig in the land in the sea. I think I would get this is actually really difficult. I think the the traditional skillet so we can get we can get all three skillets minus the plant-based one surprise because the traditional comes with oak smoked beef brisket pork ribs slow smoked pulled pork citrus herb chicken western style sausage smashed potatoes baked beans buttered corn on the cob sauteed green beans I you know what I might just ask them can they just like make me my own skillet and I literally just want I want on it I'm gonna make my own I want beef brisket pulled pork and citrus herb chicken and salmon I don't know if they would do that because I would be combining you know they probably would because they're all the same price so it's kind of like just swapping out it's really just swapping out like oh honestly I just want the traditional but I want to swap out the sausage for salmon that's what I want and I don't really want the sides but whatever you like
Barry Conrad
Like ribs, like you know, bones? You don't, do you?
Melanie Avalon
Oh, they're so good. They're just really fatty, but they're really good. They're really good. Yeah, I'll eat any part of the animal, but yeah, they're so good.
Barry Conrad
Can you imagine? We probably spend so much of our time just on the all-you-care-to-enjoy-skillet situation.
Melanie Avalon
Uh-huh. I don't even need dessert.
I just keep ordering. Skillet's. Yeah. Keep refilling. Yeah. Looks so good. And then for Entrezelle, you can order like, you know, salmon or steak, but why do that when you can get this, like, unlimited situation?
Barry Conrad
I agree. I reckon I'll just do the nachos and just skill it, skill it, skill it, skill it, skill it, and then a dessert.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, I wonder if, okay, because the land in the sea is house smoked salmon. So it's not like cooked salmon, right? It's like smoked salmon.
I might see if I can, I don't know, I think for dessert, I'll get the cedar plank salmon. Are you gonna get dessert? Oh, I see something that I think you would want.
Barry Conrad
there's two things that I actually will definitely be getting and there are, you have two, yeah, the Whispering Canyon Pie O'Neill Chocolate Cake, which is chocolate mousse, raspberry sauce, milk chocolate twig, what is that? Milk chocolate twig and candied orange and then I love apple pie so much, any kind of apple pie and it's Granny Smith apple pie, a la mode, yum, so good.
Melanie Avalon
And you're now in like the location for apple pie. I feel like New York in the fall is like apple pie world, right? Am I wrong?
Barry Conrad
You know what? Thank you so much for letting me know that because now I'm making a note because I need to I need to make this happen
Melanie Avalon
Like New England is like apple pie orchard vibes, at least to me.
Barry Conrad
I just wrote that down.
Melanie Avalon
That has to happen. Actually, I have a song I'm going to send to you that talks about this.
It talks about that geography and apple pies. Is it Taylor Swift? It actually is not. She might have like, I think just played with Taylor maybe, or I think she might have opened for Taylor.
Barry Conrad
Lardan Delore? No. Actually, just hand it to me. I want to be surprised. I will.
Melanie Avalon
I'm gonna find it. I gotta remember what it's called, but I'll find it. Okay. And then do you see a drink that you would like?
Barry Conrad
Okay, going down, down, down.
Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, they have moonshine lemonade. Oh, wow.
Barry Conrad
See, I don't, I don't love lemonade. Like usually it's just a bit too sweet and this is not that sweet and I would definitely try that.
So if it's, if it's not too sweet, I'll definitely go for the moonshine lemonade, which is all smoky moonshine with wild berry, blood orange, blackberry, strawberry or watermelon. I reckon I'll go for maybe the strawberry.
Melanie Avalon
You're not gonna get the mount in your margarita. Oh.
Barry Conrad
Ah, okay, first drink I'll do the munishan lemonade because it seems like it's a situation of the place and then mountain and margarita, dani leo blanco, tequila, contralicure, smoked hickory syrup, fresh lime juice and agave nectar. Yes, thank you, let's make that happen.
Melanie Avalon
You're welcome. And for me, the good thing about this, because this is not in the parks, it is at a resort, I could bring a bottle of wine to open.
If I had to get something from here though, like a glass, I think King of State, if I, I might like get a glass of the King of State Pinot Grigio because or Pinot Gris because it's from Oregon, I like a good, a nice Pinot Gris and it's organic. But like I said, I would probably bring a bottle of wine to open at the table.
Barry Conrad
Yum, what kind of wine do you think you'll bring?
Melanie Avalon
Something European and red. Although I've actually been trying a lot more random varietals from different places like Slovenia. I've been on a Slovenian wine kick recently.
Barry Conrad
Slovenia.
Melanie Avalon
What is this one like? Slovenia and then also, well, I guess it depends on the bridal, but I've just had a few good ones from there. And then I just discovered this type of wine. Let me wait. And I want to order more of it, but apparently it's, let me find it. So it's a, um, Oh, it's from Slovenia. Yeah, I really have been on a Slovenian kick. So it's a unique Slovenian blend called, I have no idea how you pronounce it, but it's like a blend that they have there called C V I C E K with like a weird little accent over the sea, but apparently it's a blend of, and it might, it might change, but like blower, Colner, Blau Frankish, well, Frankish is a Slovenian wine often, uh, Corral, Jovina and Welsh Riesling. But what's cool about it is like the one I have was only 9.5% alcohol, which is very low, but it's not sweet. It's like dry and tart. And I'm, I'm going to like stock up on it. Cause it's like very like light and like drinkable. I mean, it can be dangerous cause you, you just like keep drinking it, but it's like super low alcohol, but like I said, dry, which is weird.
Cause normally, like normally if it's really low alcohol, it's high in sugar because that means less sugar was converted into alcohol. Sounds good. Yeah. I need to order some more. Okay. Well, this has been so, so incredible friends, listeners. Thank you so much for hanging out with us. We love receiving your questions. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, join our Facebook group, I have biohackers. We ask for questions there where you can comment or you can just, you know, post in there, you can also email questions at I have podcast.com. You can follow us on Instagram. We are I have podcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad. And yeah, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go.
Barry Conrad
Thank you so much for tuning in. Again, everyone, we appreciate you so much. We love answering your questions. We can't wait to talk to you next week. Talk to you then, Mel.
Melanie Avalon
Talk to you then. Bye.
Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
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