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Sep 20

Episode 179: How To Talk To Kids About Fasting, Fasting On Vacation, 24 Hour Fasts, Melatonin, Troubled Sleep, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

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Welcome to Episode 179 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! Sign Up And Get Free Ground Beef For Life At ButcherBox.com/IFPODCAST

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 JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! Use The Link joovv.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST For A Free Gift!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: Sign Up And Get Free Ground Beef For Life At ButcherBox.com/IFPODCAST

3:10 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

12:00 - Listener Q&A: Edel - IF with small kids and holidays

13:10 - Listener Q&A: Jessica - My kids are watching me....

20:40 - Listener Q&A: Lysa - Melatonin

Use The Code MELANIEAVALON At Melanieavalon.Com/Sleepremedy For 10% Off!!

Dr. Kirk Parsley: Sleep Hygiene, How To Fall Asleep, Melatonin, Insomnia, Optimal Sleep Time, Morning Vs. Night People, Light And Sleep, Caffeine And Alcohol, Sleep Drugs, CBD, And More!

Tara Youngblood: Body Temperature For Sleep, Morning Vs. Night People, The Dark Side Of Sleep Tracking, Circadian Rhythms, The Chilipad, And More!!

27:05 - BIOPTIMIZERS: Go To www.bioptimizers.com/ ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save 10% 

30:30 - Listener Q&A: Phoebe - IF harder at certain points in menstrual cycle

36:10 - Listener Q&A: Renee - 24 Hr Fast

Lumen Lovers: Biohack Your Carb And Fat Burning (With Melanie Avalon): Join Melanie's Facebook Group If You're Interested In The Lumen Breath Analyzer, Which Tells Your Body If You're Burning Carbs Or Fat, Or The Biosense Breath Analyzer, Which Measures Ketones!

Long-term low-dose ethanol intake improves healthspan and resists high-fat diet-induced obesity in mice

Dry Farm Wines: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To DryFarmWines.com/IFPodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

50:20 - JOOVV RED LIGHT THERAPY DEVICES:  Use The Link Joovv.com/IFPodcast With The Code IFPODCAST For A Free Gift!

52:15 - Listener Q&A: Lexy - Morning workout

The Wim Hof Method: Activate Your Full Human Potential (Wim Hof)

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 179 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com.

Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour or yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I have one of the most exciting announcements ever. I am about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life. For the rest of your life for free, I am not making this up. So, as you guys know, we're all about making the meals that you eat in your window, window worthy and eating nutritious whole foods supportive of both your health and the environment. That's why we are a huge fan of a company called ButcherBox. They provide easy affordable access to high quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage breed pork, and wild-caught seafood all shipped directly to your door. They had a waitlist for quite a while during quarantine because they wanted to make certain, they could honor all of their promises to both their farmers and their members, and now they are back.

I actually recently interviewed Robb Wolf on my show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But reading his book, Sacred Cow, has made me realize more and more just how important it is, for not only our health, but the sustainability of our planet that we start supporting farming practices that is humane and that can sustain our health and support our future generations. I'm so thankful that ButcherBox is making this option viable for consumers.

The value is incredible. The average cost is less than $6 per meal. They have a variety of box options and delivery frequencies, so you can really make it fit your needs, and their meat tastes delicious. We're talking some of the best steak I've ever had, incredible chicken. Their bacon, for example is free of nitrates, free of sugar, and grass fed, grass finished. How hard is that to find?

And you can get free ground beef for life. For a limited time, new members can get two pounds of free ground beef in every ButcherBox order for the rest of their life. All you do is sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for the rest of your life.

And one more announcement before we jump back in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Okay, here's the thing. You might be fasting clean, drinking water, drinking your black coffee, but did you know you might still be putting compounds directly into your body which are messing with your hormones and making you less likely to burn fat?

The average man uses around six skincare products per day. The average female uses around 12. And conventional skincare makeup in the US is full of things called endocrine disruptors. These are compounds which mess with our hormones, and these include obesogens, which can actually make our body store rather than gain fat. It's honestly shocking. Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for their toxic nature, including carcinogens as well, and the US has banned less than 10.

Thankfully, there's an easy solution. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to create safe skincare that protects and nourishes your skin and is free of endocrine-disruptors. Gin and I adore them. They are game changers. They have skincare lines to meet all of your different needs. They've got amazing shampoo and conditioner, sunscreen, an overnight peel, vitamin C serums, and so much more. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd like to learn more about Beautycounter and get free discounts and special things from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. And lastly, if you'd like to take a quiz to find your perfect products, I created those at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz.

All right, now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 179 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great. It's been so long since I've talked to you.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: Listeners, don't know when these come out a week apart, but we've recorded the last one yesterday. So, it's been one day. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Little quick turnaround here. So, anything new since yesterday?

Gin Stephens: No, not a thing. Everything is the same.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. How about you anything new since yesterday?

Melanie Avalon: Not really. Except I just told you I'm slowly bringing wine back into my life, and that feels really nice. Dry Farm Wines, obviously.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I would never be able to drink any other kind. I've just-- yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I will say, listeners, I haven't had wine in probably, like a year and a half. I'd been having a sip, literally a sip of Dry Farm Wines every single night, but I hadn't really actually had wine like a year and a half.

Gin Stephens: Like a glass of wine.

Melanie Avalon: Like a glass, mm-hmmm.

Gin Stephens: That's so funny. I can't imagine having one sip of wine. What was the reason for having one sip?

Melanie Avalon: It just felt like a nice little routine, little supplement. You know how people take a shot of apple cider vinegar before eating? I don't know, I feel like it kind of had that effect. I think was more mental rather than anything else. But I will say, past few nights I've had like two glasses both nights of Dry Farm Wines and I'm fine. Dry Farm Wines for the win. Yeah, for listeners, if you haven't tried it, if you want to try hangover-free experiences with wine, definitely try it. Our link for them is dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, and that gets you a bottle for a penny.

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I'm glad you're figuring out how to work it back in and enjoying it and feeling good.

Melanie Avalon: Baby steps. Now, I’ve just got to get the fruit back.

Gin Stephens: Get that fruit back in. We're having hamburgers for dinner and I'm so excited. [unintelligible [00:06:38] anybody's interested.

Melanie Avalon: I like hamburgers without the bun.

Gin Stephens: It's going to have a bun.

Melanie Avalon: And not cooked. So, just hamburger meat.

Gin Stephens: It's a Green Chef meal. I like Green Chef.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they sponsored our podcast way back when.

Melanie Avalon: They did, back in the day.

Gin Stephens: Back in the day, but yeah, this is a Green Chef meal and so it's got zucchini, like oven fries on the side, so I'm very excited. I love a good cheeseburger with the bun and the cheese and the meat.

Melanie Avalon: I love the good raw ground beef.

Gin Stephens: No, thank you. No, no, no.

Melanie Avalon: It's so good. I will literally eat it that way.

Gin Stephens: Okay, not me. I mean I like a medium rare hamburger. So, I guess that would be for some people, but anyway, good times. What will you have for dinner tonight? Do you know?

Melanie Avalon: That's a good question. Probably shrimp or turkey or egg whites and cucumbers and maybe try to bring in some fruit. Maybe.

Gin Stephens: So, why the egg whites and not the egg yolks? I'm curious.

Melanie Avalon: Because I'm trying to do low fat, high carb.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Trying to get back to that.

Gin Stephens: All right, how are you feeling with that? Good?

Melanie Avalon: Actually, I feel demotivated because I keep trying to bring it back in and I get hypoglycemia symptoms and it's very bothersome. I get ravenously hungry basically, and that was never before a problem before. So, it's a little bit upsetting. But Glenn Livingston who has the book Never Binge Again, he came on my show and then I went on his show, which actually will probably be airing. I think he said he's going to air it probably around the time this show comes out. So, I can put a link to that in the show notes. But he's a huge fruit fan and I think he convinced me to bring back the fruit again. So, I'm going to do it.

Gin Stephens: I think you should do it. When I was experimenting with low fat just because it was right after Mastering Diabetes and I read that and I realized that was what my-- that one DNA analysis that I had suggested that exact percentage of fat they had said in Mastering Diabetes. I didn't have the hypoglycemic kind of thing. But I also eat a lot of grains, but I always have also.

Melanie Avalon: The mistake I made was I-- now that it's a mistake, but I tried a really intense ketogenic MCT oil type diet, and I think I lost my ability to-- I don't know, I think my liver is not used to running on carbs.

Gin Stephens: Very interesting. What's your Lumen telling you?

Melanie Avalon: I haven't tried it since trying to bring back the carbs. But this is something that's really interesting really quick. So, some of the symptoms I get when I try the fruit, if it's too much, it's like a heart racing. It feels like a sugar overload and the only time I felt that that I remember was before when I was eating a lot of fruit was on my birthday, one year, and they brought out a gluten-free chocolate cake. And I ate like the whole thing and my heart was racing and I was like, “I never want to feel this again.” And now, I'm getting that feeling from just eating like four kiwis, and it's really, really upsetting, but I've got to persevere. They say you've got to just stick it out. You've got to just [unintelligible [00:09:46] body for eating fruit and I'll learn how to.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm not doing any kind of restricting at all after that experiment yesterday. In fact, how I said I was going to have broccoli with hummus? I forgot that I had bought some blackberries, and so I opened my window, blackberries with heavy cream on it. So, you see it was neither low fat nor low carb. It was absolutely perfect that blackberries with heavy cream on top.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, blueberries are the only fruit that they don't give me any heart racing. I still, in the fast, the next day feel hungry.

Gin Stephens: Do you like blackberries?

Melanie Avalon: I do. Maybe I should try some of those.

Gin Stephens: Of course, you're doing low fat but blackberries with heavy cream are just so-- I mean really, you could pour heavy cream over cat food and I would probably like it. But anyway, It's really good on blackberries, and probably blueberries and strawberries and all the berries, but you don't do dairy.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I have been eating low fat and I rinse it to try to make it-- and I might start making my own cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: I do love cottage cheese.

Melanie Avalon: I love cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: They have like cultured cottage cheese.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I have.

Gin Stephens: Now, I feel I should go get some cultured cottage cheese just to eat it, but I'm not going to rinse it and I'm not going to get low fat.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, no, no, no, no. Get Nancy's cultured. It's so good and then I rinse it.

Gin Stephens: I think I'm going to because I got to eat the rest of these blackberries because they were on sale. That's why I bought them. So yeah, okay.

Melanie Avalon: I think I'm going to start making it-- Apparently, you can make it in your Instant Pot. I am so excited.

Gin Stephens: I don't have an Instant Pot.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to make it from fat-free grass-fed milk cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: We got to stop recording the podcast. Thank you all it was great to hear you today. An eight-minute podcast is [laughs] enough.

Melanie Avalon: Got to go make my cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: I've got to go buy some. I'm not going to-- I have a book about making cheese. It's like the 30-minute cheese or something. It's some kind of a book for making quick cheese, but I never made any cheese. All these great intentions.

Melanie Avalon: So many things.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: All right.

Gin Stephens: Are we ready to get started?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. All right. So, to start things off, we have two questions and they touch on a similar topic. So, we will read both of those. The first one comes from Adele. The subject is "IF With Small Kids and Holidays."

And Adele says, “Hi, ladies, I just want to say thank you so much for the podcasts. I listen religiously and look forward to a new podcast every week. The information that you provide has really helped me on my journey, which I'm still relatively new to. My question to you is how do I deal with questions from my kids who are six and four? My six-year-old is starting to make comments about me not eating, and I don't want them to have a bad complex with food or think that I do.

I've been telling them that I'm just not hungry and I don't feel like eating until later in the day. Is this the right approach? Or do you have other advice? We are also going on holidays for 10 days next week and I worried about fasting while on holidays, as we'll be sitting down together for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and I was thinking of trying to skip breakfast only. But now, I'm worried in front of the kids to just sit with a cup of coffee only. I don't want to undo all of my hard work by going mad for 10 days. I'd like to be able to find a balance. Do you have any tips for me that can help with this? Thanks in advance.”

And then, we also have a question from Jessica. The subject is "My Kids Are Watching Me." Jessica says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, first and foremost, I want to thank you ladies for all your hard work you put into this podcast. I am new at this and I have been loving catching up and you both have helped me understand this. I love it. I have two questions I would love your input on.” So actually, I'll go ahead and read her second question. And we can come back to her first question. So, her second question, she says, “I have two kids three and five. My husband brought to my attention the other day that they are watching me. What does it look like to my kids when I'm not eating with them? They see me skipping meals, and I'm sure they might start having questions. I'm not so sure fasting is a good idea for children. So, my question is do you ladies have any kinds of suggestions or have you ever dealt with this before? If so, what did you do or what would you recommend? I certainly would never want my kids to start questioning their eating habits at their ages. They're not overweight, and they are good eaters. Thank you so much for all you do. I apologize if I'm asking something you've already touched on, and I missed it. Love your podcast.”

And we can circle back to her other question. But kids and this problem. Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Jessica is right that intermittent fasting is not recommended for kids. And by that, I mean we do not recommend that kids or even teenagers start with a prescriptive, like, “I am going to have an eating window and it's going to be from this time to this time every day and I eat in a five-hour window or an eight-hour window,” or whatever. It's not recommended until they've reached physical maturity to the level that it would be okay. So, if you have a teenager who you feel like is physically mature, talk to their pediatrician, make sure that they are developmentally ready for intermittent fasting, but obviously, the children in these two questions are way too young for that.

I was an elementary teacher for 28 years, and I find that we often overcomplicate things in our adult minds when we're thinking about how kids are going to respond. When really, kids are great with simple explanations. I look back to how I was a crazy dieter for so many years when my kids were really little, and I was like doing crazy things. They watched me have a very twisted relationship with food, with my body, with eating. But I wasn't fasting, but they were watching. I think that they were more likely to get a complex during those crazy years than now.

Now that I'm an intermittent faster, of course, my kids are grown and they are intermittent fasters too now, but if they had watched me as an intermittent faster growing up, they would see someone who does not have a crazy relationship with food. When I eat, they see me eat with gusto and enjoyment. They see that I love food, that I don't fear food, that I eat what feels good, eat what I love, stop when I'm satisfied. And I don't use dieting language like, “Oh, I shouldn't have eaten that,” or, “Oh, I'm getting fat.” Things like that. Those are the things that kids pick up on a lot.

I think you just live the lifestyle the way that you feel right living it. And if a child asks, “Hey, why aren't you eating?” Say, “I'm a grownup and grownups have different needs, grownup bodies need food differently than growing bodies. Growing bodies need to eat more frequently because you're trying to grow. And adult bodies, we're not trying to grow. So, we don't need to eat as often. And the kids go, “Oh, okay,” and then they go on. And they really don't need long, drawn-out explanations. They just really instinctually understand growing bodies have different needs. And if you have a child that's trying to copy you, like, “Oh, I'm not going to eat either. I'm going to fast too.” Say, “No, fasting is not for kids. You have a growing body, I want you to eat when you're hungry.” So, I think that they understand that.

Now that being said, if you have a kid in the morning and your child’s like, “I don't want to eat, I'm not hungry,” just naturally, I would not force the child to eat. Teach your child to be an intuitive eater, eat when they're hungry, stop when they're satisfied. Don't say, “Have one more bite. Just eat a little more.” Let them stop when they've had enough, and they'll turn into lifetime intuitive eaters who don't have all the baggage that so many of us came along with. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: That was an epic and perfect answer. I was wondering, growing up what was the messaging when you grew up for when you were eating?

Gin Stephens: I had a mother who was a hippie. She didn't really force me. I remember one time she made me sit there at the table till I was going to eat, it was like squash or something. And I was like, “I will die before I'll eat the squash.” Now, I love squash. I sit there for hours, and I never ate it. [laughter] I won that battle, I remember that. And I think she never did it again.

Melanie Avalon: I like that story.

Gin Stephens: I was like, “I'm not going to eat it.” I'll be like an old lady sitting here with this plate of squash. Anyhow, I remember that, but really, my mother wasn't that interested in why I was eating, and whether it was a TV dinner or a can of SpaghettiOs, it didn't matter to her. She was fine with-- if I wanted to eat a sandwich or, it didn't matter. There weren't a lot of rules around. Now, we're having a meal and don’t eat between meals. I started using snacking more recreationally later. But I went to college at 17, so I never really lived at home again for a long period of time after the age of 17, even in the summers. One time I worked at a camp all summer and then one time I worked on college campuses. So, yeah, I left home pretty early.

Melanie Avalon: I forgot about that, that we both did that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Then I was like, just becoming a grownup and trying to figure out my own relationship with food, but we didn't really have structured mealtimes. I think it would have been better if I had grown-- I would have liked-- who knows? It's hard to say, but if I'd grown up in a household where it was like, “Now, we're sitting down to have breakfast.” “Now, we're sitting down to lunch.” “Now, we're sitting down to dinner.” Instead, it was more like, grab something whenever you felt like it. no one ever asked me really if I was hungry.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's so interesting.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, it is interesting, but my mother struggled with her weight. She was a dance teacher. She was always complaining about her weight or complaining about her size or trying to be on a diet. And so, I think I saw a lot of that. I don't know, it's hard. No matter what, we're probably doing something wrong. You could just do the best you can.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, we can go to Jessica's other question. She said, “I love running and I've been doing it for about 15 years, anywhere between four to seven miles, four to six times a week. I've been on the 18:6 IF cycle. I tend to eat a lunch and an early dinner. However, I run in the mornings and I'm wondering if not eating after my runs is a bad idea. I feel fine not eating. I'm hard-headed though and sometimes not in tune with my body. So, I would appreciate it any thoughts you might have on this?”

Gin Stephens: I think that you're in tune with your body enough to know that that was bad for your body, you would feel that. So, if you feel fine not eating, I think you would know. You would feel possibly shaky or you would have some sort of a sign that your body was not happy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because we get a lot of questions of people who do experience that. If it's not broken, don't fix it is what I say.

Gin Stephens: Really, if it feels right, it probably is. And if it feels wrong, it probably is. Our bodies have amazing feedback mechanisms in place when we connect to them.

Melanie Avalon: It's very, very true.

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Lisa. And the subject is "Melatonin." “Hi, ladies. I love, love, love your work and have been binge listening to both this podcast and Gin's other podcasts for almost a month now. I came to IF about six weeks ago primarily as a way to prevent Alzheimer's disease which my mother has. I don't weigh myself because scales play mind games with me, but I noticed clothes are looser and I feel overall just wonderful. High energy, more stable moods, and best of all, I crave healthier foods.

My question relates to sleep aids. One important anti-Alzheimer's measure is to get regular solid sleep. Being perimenopausal, my sleep hasn't been so solid. So, I've been given the green light to take melatonin at night to help. My understanding is that the chewable varieties are most effective. You can probably guess my question. Does chewing two pills at night break my fast? I usually close my window around 8:00, but I don't want to take my melatonin until around 11:00 which is when I like to go to bed. I'm almost finished reading Fast. Feast. Repeat., so apologies if there's an answer in that book that I haven't yet read.” And then, she lists the ingredients of her melatonin, and it does have flavors and sweeteners.“ So, thanks.”

Melanie Avalon: So, thank you, Lisa, so much for your question. Melatonin in itself, the hormone, is not going to break a fast. So, if you were to be crazy like me in the past and order straight pure melatonin powder, there would not be any fast breaking, but don't do that, that can be dangerous. The supplement that you listed, it does have a lot of ingredients in it. Like Gin said, artificial sweeteners like xylitol, maltodextrin which is actually sugar, starch, natural flavors. The technical answer is yes. My little caveat to it, and I'm not saying this to encourage people to take things lightly, but I think if there's the potential for something a supplement being least problematic in the whole grand scheme of things, it's probably shortly after your eating window has closed because you're still in the fed state, that tiny little bit of whatever-- it's not like you're into the fasted state already where taking in a supplement is going to send a different signal to your body because you're in the fed state at that moment.

So, this is really just supplements specifically. That said, I really wouldn't recommend the one that you're taking, Lisa, because it's got a lot of stuff in there. You don't need all that stuff in there. There are much pure forms that you can get. And I would actually really recommend, I had on my other show, Dr. Kirk Parsley who made a sleep supplement called Sleep Remedy and it does feature melatonin in the correct ratio that your brain needs as well as other natural substrates that your brain needs to like naturally instigate the sleep state. Those aren't pharmaceutical or a drug, it's just a supplement. So, I really recommend that. I'll put link to it in the show notes and a coupon. Those are my thoughts. Basically, I would suggest a different supplement anyway, even though if you are taking one, you're taking I'm not concerned about it from a breaking the fast perspective. I'm just concerned about it in that I don't like all those ingredients that are in it. Gin?

Gin Stephens: Yep, I was going to say that exact thing about a supplement at bedtime. For someone, like me, who say, “Fast, clean, fast clean. The clean fast is so important.” I completely agree with the fact that if you just close your window at 8:00, you're only three hours away from that. And so, your body has not made the transition. If you had a whole meal, that would be a different thing.

Melanie Avalon: Right. If you had food.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, then that starts the clock over. But a tiny little supplement like that is not going to interrupt because you're still digesting your last meal, you haven't shifted over into fat burning yet.

Melanie Avalon: It's not sending a different signal, basically.

Gin Stephens: Yes, I liked the way you said that. If you were 15 hours into your fast, it's going to feel different. Plus, even if it does make you feel a little, you're going to sleep. So, yeah, I completely agree with that. I've got to try that sleep remedy, Melanie. I've never tried it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. You haven't tried it?

Gin Stephens: No, have him send me some.

Melanie Avalon: Wait. Gin, how have you not tried it?

Gin Stephens: I don't know, all the struggle I've had with my sleep.

Melanie Avalon: I have taken it consistently for the past five or six years.

Gin Stephens: I've got to get some of that. Work your magic, and then we can talk about it.

Melanie Avalon: I can work some magic.

Gin Stephens: Work some magic.

Melanie Avalon: And they have an unflavored version.

Gin Stephens: Is it something you dissolve in water?

Melanie Avalon: Well, he has the supplement pill-- the supplements, and then he has drinks versions. So, you can look it over and see what you want.

Gin Stephens: All right. Well, I'd be interested to try it.

Melanie Avalon: Just to say, I will make that happen. Listeners, so if you go to melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy and use the coupon code, MelanieAvalon, you will get 10% off. Yeah, so I take the unflavored capsules, but there is a drink packet as well. That's actually a good question. Gin, what would you think about the drink version, because that would be more like a drink but it doesn't have calories?

Gin Stephens: I'm still pretty loosey-goosey up until I go to bed just because I have the evening eating window. I would never want to do something early in the day when I've woken up that would inadvertently break my fast because I'm deep in the fasted state. Right before bed, your body is still shifting over and a small sleep aid, I don't know how much it is, how much is the drink?

Melanie Avalon: It's a packet that you mix. It's five calories.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, probably not going to make a huge difference. It's tiny and it's at bedtime. But I guarantee if I woke up in the morning and drink something like that, I would be shaking, I would have--

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad we discussed that. I hadn't really thought about that way until we talked to it right now. But the signals' framework-- because you're not changing anything that's happening signal wise, and especially this drink would have five calories.

Gin Stephens: I would take the capsule though, just because but sometimes people really overstressed about stuff that's in capsules too. And they're like, I want to take this magnesium at bedtime, and it's got whatever, whatever in the capsule. Yeah, that's probably not a problem. Not very much. So, at bedtime is the time that I worry the least about supplements.

Melanie Avalon: What I love about the capsules is they're completely unflavored. There's no problematic ingredients.

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All right, now back to the show.

Our next question comes from Phoebe. The subject is, "IF Harder at Certain Points in Menstrual Cycle." Phoebe says, “Hi, Melanie and Gin. I've been doing IF for over a month now trying to find where my body is happiest, something between 16:8 and 18:6 and taking it day by day. One thing I'm starting to notice is that the more my hormones are changing closer to my period, I have a very regular cycle and very predictable bloating and cramps, etc. So, I know it's coming. The harder fasting seems to be, I feel hungry or sooner and generally more shaky or lethargic. Things I felt in the first days of IF, but which soon vanished.

I'm wondering if hormonal processes are to blame for fasting suddenly becoming much harder the last week or so. Have you heard other people saying the same thing? And yes, I am clean fasting, not over-exercising, and sleeping enough. Thank you so much for all y'all do.”

Gin Stephens: All right. I wish I knew how much time that really was because Phoebe says over a month now. So, there's a big difference between 5 weeks or 12 weeks. If Phoebe is within the first eight weeks still, it could just be getting to the end of the adjustment period where you have a harder time. Overall, with people in the groups, we hear over and over again that all of a sudden, fasting gets really, really hard. That's when that metabolic switch is getting ready to happen. The metabolic switch we talked about last week as your body is approaching that point and making the shift to fat burning. So, it totally could be your body getting ready to make that metabolic switch depending on where you are in the process.

But, I remember when I was doing intermittent fasting in the earlier days, and I was really tracking a lot of things and paying more attention to windows, and I can remember it was always like a shock to me every month because my cycle hasn't been regular like that. But especially since I've been going through perimenopause and menopause, I was wacky for years before I even started intermittent fasting. I had trouble with fibroids, that sort of thing. But I can remember I would be hungry and I'm like, “What's wrong with me? Why am I so hungry? What's going on?” And then, bam, the next day. And then, finally I started to recognize, but every month-- or not month, it might be 40 days, then one time-- Anyway, my cycle was all over the place during that period of my life, but every time I had the same reaction.

Melanie Avalon: Like not realizing?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I was like, I am just so hungry, and I'm like going to the grocery store and buying all the ice-cream. And then the next day, there it is. It was just so very funny because it surprised me every time. Then, all of a sudden, I realized. I don't know. we've been women our whole lives, and why was it suddenly a shock, but I know I really noticed it with intermittent fasting in those earlier days, but now, almost at the end of menopause, Melanie. I looked it up last night, yesterday was day 333. I'm now on day 334. I'm a month away from being able to say that I am done.

Melanie Avalon: I know nothing about all of this.

Gin Stephens: Well, a year. You give it a year, a year with no cycle and then you can say, you're officially-- And here's what's really, really funny. I looked up one time, what was the average age for menopause, and it was 51. And here I am, 51. I'm going to be perfectly average, spot on. Yay. Hooray for that.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder you probably were more in tune to the hunger because you were so used to not being hungry with intermittent fasting, so it was like, what?

Gin Stephens: I think so. I think that intermittent fasting made me see it more than I had before. I think that's true, but I just remember that process of being surprised every time and then all of a sudden, like “Okay, now I get it. I get it. Thank you.” But I was getting more in tune with my body.

Melanie Avalon: Do you suggest for women who do experience like crazy hunger to continue with what they are?

Gin Stephens: Well, I continued fasting, but I had longer windows and ate the food my body was craving. I just said that's what this is. And I bought the ice-cream.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I definitely think for a lot of women, the carbs are pretty important and all of that.

Gin Stephens: But my body certainly craved them, and instead of having ice-cream, I probably could have filled that same hole with, say, the blackberries with heavy cream.

Melanie Avalon: That’s what I was just about to say was, I would definitely encourage if you are having the cravings, there are different ways you could fulfill that craving. And if it is at all possible to get it in more of a whole foods form, that will help everything the most in the long term. Even if you want to eat cake mixes instead.

Gin Stephens: I can't think of the last time I’ve bought ice-cream. I don't think-- We just had been in the house for a year. I don't think I've bought ice-cream, like actual ice-cream the whole time we've been living in this house, which is -- I used to eat it all the time, but then I realized that the sugar gave me restless legs. I'm okay if I had a little treat. I just have discovered-- you're familiar with KIND bars, I'm sure. They have frozen KIND bars that are almost like ice-cream, but I think they're non-dairy.

Melanie Avalon: Oh really?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they're so good. They were almost like having like a little ice cream bar, like a Snickers bar ice-cream bar something, but the ingredients are so much different than you would find. I have some of those in the freezer but I'm not really gravitating towards them every day.

Melanie Avalon: One of the things I used to really love was there was a frozen kefir at Whole Foods. I can't find it now.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I bet I would love that.

Melanie Avalon: And it was low fat too. It was perfect. It was low fat. Yeah, frozen. It was LifeWay brand. If you ever see it-- Yeah, it was really good.

Gin Stephens: If I ever see it, I'll get it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: But now I have these wonderful little truffles. I have to just share these truffles with somebody, I was on her podcast. And so, she sent me as a thank you these little tiny truffles. They're so amazing. And so first of all, I told my husband he was not to consider them as his. [laughs] And then, I hid them in the refrigerator. And then, he's like, “Where are those truffles?” Every night, I get them out, we each have one. He's allowed to have one and I'm allowed to have one because we're savoring them and making them-- I'm not allowed to have one if that makes sense. I just know that it's just the perfect amount and I won't feel bad after having one. And it's going to make it last for days and days.

Melanie Avalon: I love that.

Gin Stephens: I know. All right, everybody for the next one.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Our next question is from René. The subject is "24-Hour Fast." René says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, love the podcast. I learned so much from it. I'm wondering about your opinions on adding in two 24-hour fasts per week to my routine. I've been IFing consistently since late February 2020. My minimum fast is 16 hours but my average is 19 to 20 hours. I've seen a weight loss of three to five pounds, very disappointing.” I wonder when she sent this. She said. “Yes, I am clean fasting, black coffee and plain Lacroix or Topo Chico only during the fast and eat a pretty clean diet during my window. I would say 85% to 90% whole foods, 10% to 15% processed. I do like that my wine and I have it a few times a week.

I’ve read Fast. Feast. Repeat., and it sounds maybe it's time for me to give ADF a shot but I am hesitant to do so. I like to eat something daily. I'm wondering if I throw in two 24-hour fasts a week, as in eat Sunday night at 5:00, and then don't eat until dinner, Monday at 6:00. And then, repeat that again Wednesday to Thursday. Following those with a 16 to 18-hour fast on Thursday and Friday to refeed and maintain 20-hour fasts the other days. Do we think that that could jumpstart my weight loss? I only have 15 to 18 pounds to lose. I'm at 158. My goal is 140. I am 5’5". But it seems like they just don't want to come off. I would love to hear what you ladies think of this plan or if you have better ideas. Thanks in advance. René.”

So, René sent this mid-August. She's been IFing for, let's see, February, March, April, May June, July, about six months, and she's lost three to five pounds.

Gin Stephens: Great question, René. First of all, I'm going to say something that's probably going to make you super sad. And that is the wine. Look, I have had a struggle with wine, and I'll be talking more about that over coming months but in Delay, Don't Deny, and I think I talked about this and Fast. Feast. Repeat. as well. When I was getting to my initial goal weight back in 2015, I delayed wine for about 10 weeks. I had a goal, I wanted to get to it. It was about time to shop for spring clothes. I wanted to go ahead and get to my goal weight so I could go shopping and buy my spring wardrobe. That was what it was. So, I delayed wine and also ultra-processed foods, which you'll remember the discussion of that from Fast. Feast. Repeat.

Even though I had already lost, I had lost 55 pounds at that point of my journey. I had 20 to go to get to my goal. My initial goal was to lose 75 pounds. And even though I'd already lost 55 pounds, I started losing at the rate of 2 pounds a week, which is really crazy for somebody who's already lost 55 pounds and is approaching their goal. Usually that's when weight loss really slows down, but mine really picked up because of the food choices I was making. Not having the alcohol really turbocharged my weight loss.

I have since figured out what I think is the reason. You've heard me talk about DNA analysis. I did a different company recently, just ran it through. It's is not a very expensive one, but I ran my raw data through their company, and for the first time I got information about my rate of alcohol metabolism. I am a slow alcohol metabolizer. That blew my mind. It made me realize why alcohol affected me so much when it came to weight loss because my body has to focus on dealing with the alcohol. Your liver processes alcohol. Your liver is also going to be the place where you want to be processing your fat that you're going into ketosis. I really think that for people like me who are slow alcohol metabolizers, alcohol may really be that link that is keeping you from tapping into your fat-burning superpower.

I actually have been experimenting with the ketone breathalyzer that Melanie's talked about before, and I have one too, and noticed a giant difference in my ketone levels for days after having any alcohol at all. I know that nobody wants to hear that alcohol could be the culprit for you, but man, my body sure has told it to me.

I also see that you don't really want to do ADF, so I would pull out Fast. Feast. Repeat. and look at the Intermittent Fasting Toolbox Chapter. You do not have to do full-on ADF. You can do Toolbox Strategy 2. I called it kind of a loose version of ADF because you're having short windows a few days a week and then longer windows, so you're getting that alternate pattern without having a full down day. So, look at Toolbox Strategy 2 where you're throwing in a few. You mentioned having two 24-hour fasts per week. Yeah, I would certainly try that. That, plus the wine and I really think you would see some things change. I'm sorry to tell you that because wine is amazing.

Melanie Avalon: I will weigh in and provide a-- I guess it could equally be a Debbie Downer or it could be a not Debbie Downer if you prefer the wine.

Gin Stephens: And again, sorry if your name is Debbie.

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's what I was just thinking. So, me looking at what you're eating and drinking the 85%, 90% whole foods, 10% to 15% processed, and then wine a few times a week, everything Gin said is completely true and stands. Some people are slow metabolizers, some people--

Gin Stephens: I'm still mad about that, by the way.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Struggle with weight loss, with wine. For a silver lining, from what I've seen, the majority of the research on alcohol and wine actually tends to-- so not like the food choices with the wine, but just wine and alcohol itself tends to correlate to lower weights, particularly in women. Wine and alcohol itself can't actually become body fat. So, when you are gaining weight, if you're gaining weight from drinking, it's from two potential things. It's what you're eating with the wine and/or what Gin talked about. If it's messing with how you're metabolizing other fuels, it could be an issue.

So basically, it's possible that it's fine. It's possible that it's not fine. It's definitely something that you can play with and see. I would say if I were to focus on something, I would focus on either going all whole foods, cutting out the processed foods, because she doesn't mention macros at all or trying a macros approach. So, either low carb, high fat or high carb low fat. And with both of those, I would recommend 10% or less of the macro you're limiting. So, like 10% fat diet or 10% carbs diet. Out of all those choices, maybe try what sounds most appealing to you. I think you'll see biggest results from adjusting the food choices probably. So, that's definitely something to try.

Yeah, if you're not wanting to try ADF, I wouldn't make that the first choice, like Gin said, because there's so many other things you can try. So, why do something you don't want to try?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, exactly. I just was shocked at the difference it made in my breath ketone scores, that's the thing I wasn't expecting. I couldn't believe the difference that it made in fact. And then, that was what really sent me looking for-- I guess I've never really come across the idea that some people are slow alcohol metabolizers and all the stuff I've read about people's bodies handling things differently. Like for example, I had read about caffeine metabolism. I know I'm a fast caffeine metabolizer. The other DNA analyses I did all told me that, but I never saw anything about alcohol. So, then I was like, “I wonder if we can have different rates of alcohol metabolism,” then I looked it up and sure enough there it was. It was really using the ketone readings that let me see something was going on.

Melanie Avalon: Also, yeah, for those ketone readings, if anybody's interested in going down that route of breath analyzing, I do have a group for it. It's called Lumen Lovers and Biosense Biohackers. So, you guys can join me there. Did I talk yet on the show about that recent study that just came out with alcohol and the rodents? That blew my mind.

Gin Stephens: I can't remember.

Melanie Avalon: It's a new study and it was looking at rats where they basically only gave them alcoholic water.

Gin Stephens: For some reason, yeah, but maybe we were just talking about it. I can't remember if we talked about it on the podcast or off the air.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know if we did. So, there was a study recently-- It just sounds really funny. They took rats and they had rats on a weight-promoting diet. So, like high-fat, high-carb, made to gain weight. Then, they had rats also on that diet, but all of their water was slightly alcoholic. And then, they had rats, I don't know what the third wing was. I think--

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, we have not talked about this. I don't think we have. This does not sound familiar.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you haven't heard-- Okay. Yeah, so the study, it was released January of this year, 2020. And the title is "Long-term low-dose ethanol intake improves health span and resists high fat-diet induced obesity in mice." And the setup was that they had mice that were eating a high-fat, high-carb calorie diet to make them obese. And then, they had a group also eating that diet, but their water actually had that 3.5% V/V, I'm not sure what that means, ethanol in their drinking water. And then, they had the group on a standard diet also with the ethanol.

They did this to, in their words, “Investigate the effects of long-term low-dose ethanol intake in vivo.” And it was honestly really shocking because the group that was eating the obesogenic diet without alcohol obviously got a lot of problems, like everything just crashed and burned basically. They got metabolically unhealthy, they gained weight, their liver triglycerides got bad. They got markers of just a lot of health issues. The group that had the water supplemented with ethanol didn't experience any of those effects. It's honestly really, really shocking.

Gin Stephens: That is bizarre.

Melanie Avalon: I was shocked reading it. I didn't think it would be that intense of a response. They have lot theories in it about why that might be happening. It could be activation of AMPK, which is something we talk about a lot, or at least I talk about it a lot. I'm not sure we talk a lot about in this show, but that's a gene that's expressed in the fasted state. And its longevity-promoting gene and it makes your body basically turn to its own self for fuel sources. So, it's great, we get during fasting so that could possibly be at play. It might have to do with insulin sensitivity. And it could be a lot of other things. Their conclusion basically, they said, “Our findings show that not only could long-term low-dose ethanol intake improve the physical performance and the health span in mice, but also boost the defense mechanism against the high-fat diet. Extended evaluations are needed to assess the long-term impacts of moderate alcohol intake on organs or systems such as the brain, the muscular, and the cardiovascular system. Findings from the current study substantiate opinions on the protective effects of moderate alcohol intake.”

Gin Stephens: They weren't trying to lose weight, right? It just prevented weight gain. Is that what they're saying?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Basically, they weren't adding it to like a normal diet. They were adding it to a diet made to make the rats obese and metabolically unhealthy. And when they had alcohol, they were protected from all of that.

Gin Stephens: Okay. But they were not like overweight rats who were trying to lose weight during the rat study?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it wasn't a weight loss study. But it makes you wonder, if it is having all these effects, it's very intriguing and it speaks to the potential role of wine in a healthy diet, if it works with your body for weight loss.

Gin Stephens: That's the kind of study I would have clung to like a life raft when I was trying to-- Look, it makes it better, it makes it better. That's why I was drinking so much wine but then realizing how it was affecting me--

Melanie Avalon: And the crazy thing is, I think for me, it does make me better.

Gin Stephens: Enough people say it that I believe-- I believe it if it is, but just for me, it's just been shocking to see the difference.

Melanie Avalon: My body composition hands down throughout my life has been the best during the time-- I know it could just be correlation, but it was definitely during the time that I was drinking the most wine.

Gin Stephens: But I lost weight the fastest, that was back when I was weighing daily and calculating, and I knew what my weekly average was doing. And I'd been on that road for a while to lose the 55 pounds before, but I lost two pounds a week after eliminating the wine, and I would notice if I had it. I just really notice the correlation between my weight and wine, and any alcohol back when I was a regular weigher. So, René, experiment with it and see. You may be like me, and the wine could make a difference for you. Or you could be like the rats or Melanie, and the wine helps you. That's a variable to play around with.

Melanie Avalon: I said it at the beginning but Dry Farm Wines, the reason we love them so much is it's basically a company that goes throughout Europe and finds the wineries practicing organic practices and then they extensively test the wines to make sure they are free of alcohols, free of pesticides, free of toxins, free of mold, low sugar, and low alcohol. And they're dry farmed, which is the traditional way of winemaking. And it actually creates more of a xenohormesis potential in the grapes, which is basically just saying that's likely going to have more compounds that actually jumpstart those longevity genes in our body. The link, dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, gets you a bottle for a penny.

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Shall we do one more quick question?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think we have time for one more. This is from Alexis and the subject is "Morning Workout." “If I work out in the morning, then I am hungry, but I don't want to eat and break my fast. However, if I don't eat after my morning walk, then I can feel sick and queasy. Any tips to hold me over so I don't break my fast until later in the day?” And she signed it Lexi, even though her email came from Alexis, she goes by Lexi. What do you say to Lexi?

Melanie Avalon: So, I have a few different thoughts here. She says workout but she says it's a morning walk, so it's not like an intense gym session, which if that were the case it would make more sense. Do you find, Gin, that most people get hungry or sick and queasy from just a walk? I'm just curious.

Gin Stephens: I'm wondering if Lexi is just really early in the process and is not fat adapted yet, because absolutely no. Once people are fat adapted, a morning walk would not make you probably sick and queasy. If you've been fasting clean for a long time and you're pretty sure you're fat adapted, I wouldn't think a morning walk would make you sick and queasy. Because I could do anything-- I mean, okay, that's me. I'm talking about myself. But just from the hundreds of thousands of group members that say the same thing. Once you're adapted-- When people I interview for Intermittent Fasting Stories, they talk about how, once they're adapted, they just keep doing the things in the fasted state and they feel great, but it's during the adjustment process, because feeling sick and queasy is a sign of low blood sugar, which means your body has nothing to fuel you. And so, your body is not accessing a fuel source during your walk for whatever reason your blood sugar crashes, you feel sick and queasy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I was going to say it's ironic because oftentimes I feel if we get questions about how do I deal with hunger during the fast? One of my suggestions is actually do something like go on a walk because normally, it usually has the opposite effect.

Gin Stephens: Well, it pushes you to that fat burning, it gets you there if you're right on the edge. Because if I'm having a lull during the day, a momentary feeling of, “Ugh,” I just will pay attention to it for a minute and then usually right after that, bam. I hit the really good part.

Melanie Avalon: So, I actually have a suggestion that's way out there. I am really, really becoming more and more convinced of the power of things like breathwork, especially for things like nausea or feeling sick or queasy or hunger because we don't just get energy from food. We get it from food, light, oxygen, breathing. And they've done studies. It's fascinating. They've done studies on athletes, and the percent increase in energy that they can get from breathwork is very impressive.

So, for example, when you are actually doing physical activity to generate energy, the process of actually creating energy, which is called ATP molecules, that involves something called aerobic dissimilation. And aerobic dissimilation creates about 30 times more energy, ATP molecules, when there's oxygen versus when there's not oxygen. And they found in studies that they can substantially increase performance with breathwork. The reason I'm saying this is if you're struggling with-- your body doesn't seem to be fueling adequately with your activity, I would maybe suggest trying some breathwork techniques before and potentially after. I'll put a link in the show notes to Wim Hof’s new book that's coming out because he has a lot of exercises in there for this specifically.

Also, you can tie it in with like a mindset shift. So, maybe if you can see your morning walk not as something that's going to make you hungry, but it's something that is actually tapping into your fat burning. The power of the mind is very powerful. And we've seen studies on this, like when people are doing exercise, if they think they are burning more calories, they lose more weight, like they burn more calories. So, if you can see the walk as tapping into your fat-burning that might actually be effective.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I believe the power of that. I talked about some of those studies in Fast. Feast. Repeat., where people were told that this is all the exercise you need in a day, like hotel workers, just the group that was told this was great exercise, lost weight. The group that wasn't told that, didn't. I mean, your mind is amazing.

Melanie Avalon: The mindset is all covered in Wim Hof’s new book too.

Gin Stephens: I can't wait to read it.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you to read it. I think I'm really excited that you're excited to read it.

Gin Stephens: Well, I think he's cool. He's a little wacky, right?

Melanie Avalon: Have you heard him talk?

Gin Stephens: I don't think I have because you know I don’t listen to things.

Melanie Avalon: I know you don't listen to things. But the interview I did with him, maybe you’ll listen to it. He'll be talking like normal and then he'll just get so excited, passionate, and just start basically screaming and talking about changing the world. And you're just like, “Oh, my gosh, what is happening?”

Gin Stephens: I can't wait to read it. He seems like an amazing guy.

Melanie Avalon: He really, really is. I would hands down get that book. I honestly want to be everybody read this and just use it to deal with all the things that you're struggling with, because it's just a really great reframe for what we experience. That said, if it doesn't mess with your circadian rhythm, you could have some coffee. That might help suppress appetite, tea. Also, breath work side of things. I've mentioned this before, but I am loving, loving my Komuso Shift’s necklace. It's a necklace that you wear, and you breathe in through your nose and then out through it, and it forces you to extend your exhale. So, it basically forces you into breathwork technique that is calming and just really beneficial for the body. Especially if you have the urge, like munch, you want something in your mouth. It's nice because it's literally something that you can put to your mouth. But, yeah, I would encourage-- like Gin said, we don't know how long she's been doing it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that would be something I would wonder because it just sounds like she's not fat adapted.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, definitely. And also, she doesn't talk at all about what she's eating in general. So, that could also be adjusted, but we don't know. Gin, do you have other thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that was it.

Melanie Avalon: All righty. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get Gin's new book, Fast. Feast. Repeat., in stores, everywhere. You can join my Facebook groups, IF Biohackers and Lumen Lovers and Biosense Biohackers, got two of those. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. You can follow me on Twitter, I'm @melanieavalon and Gin is @ginstephens. I think that's it. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it, and I will talk to you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, I just realized what next week is. Big things are on the horizon.

Gin Stephens: Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Talk to you then.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts: Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, Gin's Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle, Feast Without Fear: Food and the Delay, Don't Deny Lifestyle and/or Gin's Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Clean Fast Protocol for Health, Longevity, and Weight Loss--Including the 21-Day FAST Start Guide

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Intermittent Fasting Stories

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com  

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Sep 13

Episode 178: Metabolic Flexibility, Muscle and Liver Glycogen, How Age Affects The Metabolic Switch, Fat Adaptation Vs. Ketosis And More!

Intermittent Fasting

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 178 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

1:10 - JOOVV RED LIGHT THERAPY DEVICES:  Use The Link Joovv.com/IFPodcast With The Code IFPODCAST For A Free Gift!

3:00 - BEAUTY COUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

10:55 - Listener Q&A: Maria - Intentionally fasting without weightloss

14:10 - Listener Q&A: Adam - When the liver runs out of glycogen...

15:35 - Listener Q&A: Beth - Glycogen

Metabolic switching is impaired by aging and facilitated by ketosis independent of glycogen

22:35 - FEALS: Go To https://feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

39:55 - BIOPTIMIZERS: Go To www.bioptimizers.com/ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save 10% Off

Dr. Kirk Parsley: Sleep Hygiene, How To Fall Asleep, Melatonin, Insomnia, Optimal Sleep Time, Morning Vs. Night People, Light And Sleep, Caffeine And Alcohol, Sleep Drugs, CBD, And More!

Tara Youngblood: Body Temperature For Sleep, Morning Vs. Night People, The Dark Side Of Sleep Tracking, Circadian Rhythms, The Chilipad, And More!

54:10 - Listener Q&A: Jessica - Daylight Savings Time Changes

Carex Day-Light Classic Plus Bright Light Therapy Lamp

Lumen Lovers: Biohack Your Carb And Fat Burning (With Melanie Avalon)

IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 178 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, as you all know, I've always said that when you eat is just as important as what you eat to fulfill your best wellness lifestyle. And guess what? The same thing goes for natural light. With our modern indoor lifestyles, it can be really hard to get enough natural light from the sun but getting a good amount of light is super important for your health. That's why we use and adore Joovv Red Light Therapy products. They shine wavelengths of red and near-infrared light right in the comfort of your own home.

You guys have heard me talk about Joovv before. They're my preferred light therapy brand and their modular design allows me to treat my entire body in light. That helps support healthier cells for more energy, less inflammation, and better healing and recovery. I've personally been using my Joovv Mini at home for probably three years now literally every single day of my life. I'm not making that up. The only exception would probably be when I was traveling or moving, in which case I would use my Joovv Go to take with me. But, guys, it's part of my life. It's just part of my life.

For example, my apartment flooded recently. I took a video of torrential downpour rain coming from the ceiling, all lit up by my Joovv because Joovv is always going at night. Joovv is by far the highest quality light therapy brand. The customer service and the people there are exceptional. I find Joovv so revolutionary for my mood. I use it to regulate my circadian rhythm, waking me up in the morning, calm me down at night. I also recently had dry needling done in my jaw for a TMJ pain. And my jaw was in so much pain except for when I held my jaw up to the Joovv, in which case the pain just went away, which honestly was very shocking.

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Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that what you put on your skin gets direct access to your bloodstream and in your body can do a lot of detrimental things? So, while you may be fasting clean, you may at the same time be infusing your body with endocrine disrupters, which can mess with your hormones, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight and even carcinogens.

In Europe, they've banned thousands of these compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup, and the US has banned less than 10. In fact, most conventional lipstick for example is high in lead. And the half-life of lead in the body can be up to 30 years. That means every time you put on some lipstick, you might be putting some lead into your bones, which might not leave for three decades. This is a big deal. Thankfully, there's an easy, all-encompassing answer.

There's a company called Beauty Counter, and they were founded on a mission to make skincare and makeup products that are safe for your skin. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to not burden your body and support your skin health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd like to learn more about safe beauty and also get a ton of have amazing discounts and free things from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. Not sure which Beauty Counter products to try? I also just made a whole series of online quizzes to match you to your perfect product. Those are at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. So, here's to fasting clean inside and out.

All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 178 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am doing great. I got some really good news this week. You already know it, that Fast. Feast. Repeat., is coming to Targets in America, the Target stores, in November.

Melanie Avalon: That's so exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is so exciting. They're having like a specialized wellness push because I guess for the holidays. Anyway, it's really hard to get into Target, so I'm very, very excited to be able to walk into Target and see Fast. Feast. Repeat. right there. Also, yesterday, I don't know if you saw this, I posted it on Facebook and on Instagram, but I was at the mall. I was looking for some shoes. By the way, I don't understand styles. I'm 51, I just want some dark brown leather flip-flops. I had some that were great, and a dog chewed them up at my friend's house. And so, I've been trying to find another pair. Apparently, the shade of dark brown that I'm looking for is not in style. Everything is like light brown and nude and cork. I don't know. Anyway, side note. While I was at the mall, I went to the Barnes & Noble and signed all of the copies of Fast. Feast. Repeat., that they had.

Melanie Avalon: Did you do it secretly?

Gin Stephens: No, I didn't do it secretly because--

Melanie Avalon: Did you ask them if you could sign?

Gin Stephens: I did.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you did. What'd they say?

Gin Stephens: They had five on the shelf and I went and-- this girl who worked there and I'm like, “Hey, I'm the author. Can I sign these books?” She's like, “I'm not sure. Let me check.” I'm like, “Okay. Go check.” [laughs] I thought they might say no at first. I was like, “All right.”

Melanie Avalon: And what they say?

Gin Stephens: Well, the manager came over. And he was like, “Of course, and we'll put these stickers on them that say signed copy.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Gin Stephens: Which, of course, is what I wanted them to do because then people can tell it's a signed copy. But what was fun is he told me they've had to reorder several times and that it was selling really well.

Melanie Avalon: That's really exciting.

Gin Stephens: That people were coming in and asking for it, so yeah, that made me so happy. Fast. Feast. Repeat., check your Barnes & Noble, and then in November, check your Targets.

Melanie Avalon: Now, I feel like-- because when they release mine in Barnes & Noble at the beginning, they had it featured like on the centerpieces where they feature the books, they had a featured, I should have done that. I should have asked if I could sign. I just went in secretly and bought it and didn't tell anybody. And then, since then, I just walk in secretly and sign it and runaway, like I've done something wrong.

Gin Stephens: But I just felt like it would be fun and so I did it, and it was fun, and also weird. It felt weird.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's exciting.

Gin Stephens: It was. That was a lot of fun. So, what's up with you? Anything new?

Melanie Avalon: Well, you know this, but I interviewed Wim Hof.

Gin Stephens: Very cool.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my goodness. Listeners, you guys know I talk about my obsession with cold exposure. We're going to get Gin on board someday.

Gin Stephens: We're not. We're not going to get to Gin onboard.

Melanie Avalon: Wim Hof is known as The Iceman and he climbed Mount Everest in shorts. He holds 26 world records. He's insane. There's actually an episode on Netflix right now on Gwyneth Paltrow’s shows. I think it's called like Goop Lab series.

Gin Stephens: Something like that. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Did you watch the fasting mimicking diet episode she did?

Gin Stephens: I did not.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, she had Valter Longo on for one of the episodes. She had an episode with Wim, and he has the cold exposure, breathwork techniques, which I've also started doing. Oh my goodness, Gin, how long can you hold your breath?

Gin Stephens: Probably not long enough.

Melanie Avalon: If you do Wim Hof technique breathing, you magically can hold your breath eons, and it's not even a big deal. I held it two and a half minutes, like it wasn't even a big deal.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I can't do that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you can. If you do the breathwork. You think you can't, but you can. And then, it's funny because you're totally fine and then also you'll feel like you're dying. And that's when you take your breath in. For listeners, it's pretty much the most motivational conversation I think I've probably ever had, because he just wants to change the world. And he's so passionate, and he's doing all the research. That's what's really unique is, they're doing clinical studies on all of his methods and they're finding incredible things. The first time they've shown in scientific studies that you can modulate or control your autonomic response to things, like your immune system that they thought couldn't be controlled by the mind. They found that with his method, the participants can.

Gin Stephens: Wow. So, does he have like one book that you recommend?

Melanie Avalon: He doesn't have any books yet.

Gin Stephens: Oh, he has one that's in the works, doesn't he?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's what I brought him on for.

Gin Stephens: Okay, he's got the same literary agent that you and I do.

Melanie Avalon: I forgot about that. Yeah, he does.

Gin Stephens: He's represented by the same agency. Love it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I remember I tried to get connected to him through them and they were like he's really busy traveling. So then, I got connected in another way. His book, which is coming out, it's called The Wim Hof Method: Activate Your Full Human Potential. Guys, get this book.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I'm going to. That sounds like one I would love.

Melanie Avalon: It's amazing. It's short. It's great, because it's a great blend of he tells his own story, and it's like personal but then he goes all through the science of the method. There's some people that you feel who truly change the world and I feel he's doing that.

Gin Stephens: As long as I don't have to do cold exposure.

Melanie Avalon: You don't have to, but you might get convinced reading his thing. You might.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we’ll see.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and he told me how I can get a chest freezer and do ice baths in my apartment.

Gin Stephens: Oh my God, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “I want to move to Alaska.” And he's from the Netherlands, he has an accent. He's like, “You can bring Alaska to your home.” And he told me how.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that sounds dangerous. You're like trapped in an ice-cold chest freezer.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I might be thumbs down on that one. I don't know about that.

Melanie Avalon: No, you unplug it. He told me how to do it. You plug it in, you get silicone, you do something with a silicone. You put the water in, you run it for 24 hours to get it cold. And then when you want to use it, you unplug it and then you sit in it. And it's like sitting in Alaska. I am so pumped.

Gin Stephens: I don't even want the cold water that comes out of the faucet, that's too cold.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, gosh. Baby steps. Okay.

Gin Stephens: On that note, let's go to our first question.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so our first question comes from Maria. And she says-- printed it out today. “Hi, Gin and Melanie. First of all, I love listening to your podcasts during my morning walks. I've been picking random ones, but I've probably listened to about 30 in the past few months. During this quarantine time, I have been making some lifestyle changes. And after listening to many podcasts about intermittent fasting, I'm very interested in the benefits of it. I'm not looking to lose weight as I am 5’3" and 122 pounds and this is a healthy weight for me. When I listen to the podcast, I hear that most people have very short eating windows, such as 18:6 or 24. I've tried doing longer fasts but even 16 hours is sometimes hard for me. I've been fasting between 14 and 17 hours depending on how I feel each day.

I wanted to know if a fasting window of 14 to 15 hours is too short to see benefits from fasting. I'm a breakfast eater, so not eating till noon or 1:00 PM has not been working well for me and I usually get hungry around 10:00.”

All right. Thoughts, Gin?

Gin Stephens: That's a great question, Maria. And yes, you can absolutely have benefits from a fast of 14 to 15 hours. I've seen Valter Longo who came up with the fasting mimicking diet. He promotes doing just a 12-hour fast regularly for health benefits. So, 14 to 15 hours, yes, you're not going to get into deep fat-burning state, but you're not trying to. My husband does a loose 16:8-ish. But often, he'll open his window even earlier if he just feels like he needs to eat earlier that day, maybe on the weekend. So, yeah, go with how you feel. I would not hesitate to do a 14- to 15-hour fast if it feels right to you.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. 100% I'm on the same page. And I find it a little bit ironic because, and Gin mentioned this, but some big fasting proponents actually advocate, especially for women doing more consistently a shorter fast, be it 12 to 16 hours or so. My only question is, Gin, what do you think are the implications that she does find it harder? Do you think that indicates that she's not adapting to fasting? Or do you think it just means that maybe a longer fasting window isn't appropriate for her?

Gin Stephens: Yes, that went through my head. I don't think she has to force it, though. So, I didn't know that that really mattered to her. But she gets hungry around 10:00 because that's when she's used to eating and she's not getting into that deep fat-burning state. But since her goal is really just to maintain, she could push through and get there, but to what end?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my only question is, is there not some adaptation that has happened?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, if she wanted to lose weight, then I would tell her to push through that. She's probably getting hungry right at that moment where her body would be making the transition into fat burning and so she would need to push through so that that would happen, but she's not trying to do that.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. We don't often get questions where people do want to maintain-- they're not looking to lose weight, but they're also sort of wanting to fast longer.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but she doesn't want to fast longer. If you are enjoying it, you feel good doing that, do it.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, I agree.

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Adam. And the subject is, When the Liver Runs Out of Glycogen. Adam says, “I've heard different things from different sources on what happens when your liver runs out of glycogen. They are, one, if you are not fat adapted, then your metabolism slows down instead of your body accessing its fat stores. Two, if your liver runs out when you're exercising and you're not fat adapted, your body will use protein and amino acids to provide energy instead of fat stores. Three, running out of glucose in the liver when you're not exercising will not access amino acids and your body will use fat stores. Four, exercise at the end of a fast empties your liver and actually trains your body to be fat adapted. I guess my main concern is the point about your metabolism slowing down if you are not fat adapted. That source said you needed to do a low-carb diet to get fat adapted first.

Then, my secondary concern is your body using amino acids and possibly breaking down muscle during a workout, if not fat adapted. Do you guys have any insight on this? Thank you.”

Melanie Avalon: All right. This is great-- I like the different questions from Adam. We actually have a question from Beth as well, which also talks about glycogen. So, I might go ahead and read that and then maybe we can just do a breakdown of all of this, especially because I've been studying this a lot recently. So, I'm going to go and read Beth's question. Her subject is Glycogen, and she said, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. Love your podcast. I look forward to it every week. The dogs get a little longer walk when a new one loads. I've been doing IF for a little over a year. Love it, will not go back.

I do have one question. I'm also a runner and a biker. When I first started IF, my workouts struggled a bit, I'm not sure what happened, but I finally got over it. Honestly, when I started IF, I was probably lower carbs and eating cleaner. Then, I started to eat less clean in my window and had more endurance, but my weight loss stalled. I feel better when I eat cleaner which results in fewer carbs, but my running suffers. I wonder if it has something to do with my glycogen stores. I was listening to one of my favorite nutritionists, and she promotes clean eating and also likes IF but doesn't solely promote it.

Anyway, she was talking about glycogen stores and once your body uses those up, it will start to burn fat. She mentioned especially if you exercise, you may need a few more carbs for glycogen stores. I wanted your thoughts on this, any advice? I don't know if there's any way to know how many carbs to have enough glycogen to not struggle running, is this even how it works? I won't stop IF and I won't stop running. But I would like to do both, but still lose even more pounds with better eating. Thanks in advance. I'm so thankful to my friend who introduced me to this lifestyle. Beth.”

I don't know why I'm so obsessed with glycogen but I am. I literally, for fun, just read about glycogen stores and what's going on there. And I think one of the things I'm so fascinated about is there's this prevailing idea that the way things work is you deplete glycogen and then you enter ketosis. I don't know, that's the way it works. I think that goes back to a study from like 1980 was where that was first posited and that's what's mostly referenced. There's not a lot of literature looking a little bit deeper at that. And I recently found a study that literally made my life, granted it was in rodents, but I think it's still pretty fascinating, and maybe we can learn some things from it, and it might question our ideas about what might be going on with glycogen and fat burning and ketosis and all that stuff.

Because basically, in the study, they had four groups of rats. They had aged rats and young rats. Then, they had a group of aged rats on a standard diet, but doing time-restricted eating, so doing intermittent fasting. They had rats on a ketogenic diet doing intermittent fasting. And then, they also had a control group as well, which I think was just eating a normal diet throughout the day. And then, they had young rats, same thing. So, young rats doing a standard diet with carbs and intermittent fasting. Young rats following a ketogenic diet with intermittent fasting and then like control rats. They did a set of different studies, comparing all of these.

But what was fascinating was, they basically used the glucose ketone index, that's the GKI, as a marker for really entering a ketogenic state and so that's just looking at blood sugar levels compared to ketone levels. They found a lot of really fascinating things. They found that on ketogenic diets, it reduced overall glycogen storage capacity. So, the rats on ketogenic diets doing intermittent fasting, they could hold total less glycogen total.

Gin Stephens: Is that saying they didn't refill it as much?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, but the actual-- if their liver could hold X amount of glycogen, it was less than the amount of glycogen that the rats that were not doing ketogenic diets could hold. And then, what was interesting though, was it wasn't affected by fasting or not fasting. So, when they were fed and when they were fasting, they had lower total glycogen levels compared to the group that was eating the carb-inclusive diet with fasting. So, it was lower levels at the moment compared to the other group, but the capacity of the glycogen was less. Basically, they weren't holding as much glycogen-- Actually, yes, what you kind of just said, they weren't necessarily refilling it, but it was staying steady and it wasn't getting affected by going in and out of fasting. Now, I feel like I'm going all over the place, but it does speak to some of the questions we just had about-- because I read before that when people are keto adapted, they don't necessarily need glycogen as much for fueling exercise and stuff like that. The muscles become fat adapted, but then also their glycogen levels aren't really involved in their energy and output and things like that.

One of their quotes was they found that ketosis prevents fasting-induced liver glycogen depletion. So, in other words, when these rats were following ketogenic diets and doing fasting, when they went into fasting, it wasn't necessarily depleting that glycogen, they were maintaining it, which throws a paradigm shift there about how to think about things. For muscle glycogen, there was absolutely no difference between any of the groups, which was really interesting.

So, they found that the glycogen stores only hindered entering ketosis, so only made it harder to enter ketosis for the aged rats following a standard diet with intermittent fasting. The idea there might be that age rats aren't as metabolically flexible and aren't as good about switching in and out of ketosis. So, the age rats on ketogenic diets, the young rats on ketogenic diets, and the young rats on standard diets, all of them doing fasting, their glycogen stores did not really affect how soon and to what extent they entered ketosis. So, I don't know if it's that the fasting was basically making it easy for them to enter ketosis and glycogen wasn't even playing a role as long as they're metabolically flexible, which would be the young rats and then the old rats on ketogenic diets. It really speaks a lot though to metabolic flexibility and this idea that it seems people depending on you, depending on your metabolic flexibility, people can often switch in and out of ketosis, and glycogen might not be playing as big of a role as we think it might be playing. But when there is metabolic dysfunction, which would be indicated with the aged rats on standard diets, even though they were doing interment fasting, then glycogen played a whole lot bigger role.

That said, I think humans, especially when we're not humans in controlled experiments, I think the majority of us are metabolically broken. So, I feel if anything, we're probably more likely going to mirror those aged rats, we might be more dependent on glycogen, being a lever and going in and out of ketosis.

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Gin Stephens: Have you read Flipping the Metabolic Switch recently?

Melanie Avalon: Not recently.

Gin Stephens: I've got it right here in front of me. And this is Mark Mattson and others. Mark Mattson is the one who did the New England Journal of Medicine article that came out December of 2019 that everyone was talking about. This is a paper that was from October of 2017. This article really is what taught me about glycogen and what happens but if anybody hasn't read it, I would read it. Flipping the Metabolic Switch: Understanding and Applying the Health Benefits of Fasting. It's available for free online if you search for it. And I actually have it linked in the back of Fast. Feast. Repeat. But this guy's 100% against the-- some of the things you were just theorizing, Melanie, and it says, the metabolic switch-- This is their definition of the metabolic switch. I'm going to read verbatim.

“The point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted and fatty acids are mobilized, typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.” And then, another section under the “Results and Conclusions,” it says, “Emerging findings suggest that the metabolic switch from glucose to fatty acid-derived ketones represents an evolutionarily conserved trigger point that shifts metabolism from lipid/cholesterol synthesis and fat storage to mobilization of fat through fatty acid oxidation and fatty acid-derived ketones, which serve to preserve muscle mass and function.”

Going to Adam’s point. Adam is correct that before your fat adapted, you might have that issue. But once you're able to tap in and you're able to produce those fatty acid-derived ketones, that's when you preserve your muscle mass and function. So, then it goes on to say, I'm going to quote again, “Thus, IF regimens that induce the metabolic switch have the potential to improve body composition in overweight individuals.” They specifically say that we've got that metabolic switch from glucose to ketones, and they talk about that point being at which the liver glycogen stores are depleted.

I feel like one thing that we sometimes get confused on is whether they have to be depleted to zero. I think that's a point of misunderstanding. There's a point when the liver glycogen is low enough that we start to make the transition. And perhaps we can use the rat study. Tell me if this makes any sense, Melanie, that maybe as you become more metabolically flexible, maybe your body doesn't stash as much away as glycogen anymore in your liver. Your body's better at saying, “No, I'm not going to stash this away in my liver.” I don't know, that's just a theory based on what you said about the rats.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. A lot of things there that you just said-- I'm in agreement with all of that. I'm curious what they're quoting for getting that information about the glycogen specifically. I need to go read what study they're talking about from that. I'm wondering if everybody's referencing the same original source material for that.

Gin Stephens: That's what everyone's understanding is coming from the same because everybody's saying it this way, including Mark Mattson. Here's a big-time-- yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Everything that you just said is actually in agreement with everything that I was just pointing out that when we're fat adapted, we're switching into burning fats because-- the sentence you read about emerging research, it wasn't talking about glucose, it was talking about switching to fat burning.

Gin Stephens: The whole point of this journal article is the metabolic switch is that point where your liver glycogen is depleted enough for you to switch over. That's what they're calling the metabolic switch, flipping the metabolic switch. The metabolic switch is defined by them as the point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted, and fatty acids are mobilized. So, it's the point.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and then typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.

Gin Stephens: It sounded like the rat study was saying, “Hey, liver glycogen has nothing to do with it.” And I don't want people to think that's true.

Melanie Avalon: So, the consistency with the study wasn't glycogen stores, it was really the time? So, the fasting time? What Mattson says, and this is what I'm wondering because he says, “The point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted and fatty acids are mobilized typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.” What I'm wondering is, is it citing literature talking about liver glycogen stores being the key, also, it's overlapping with 12 hours being when that happens, when I'm just wondering if maybe it's the time, it's the 12 hours and maybe liver glycogen stores aren't necessarily completely depleted at 12 hours. We often say don't focus on ketones, don't stress about measuring ketones. I think it's the same thing with liver glycogen.

Gin Stephens: Well, oh, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't stress about it at all.

Melanie Avalon: It just seems like the more and more I read and think about this, that the prevailing idea is often that we deplete liver glycogen and then we start burning fat. And those are often lumped together with fasting because fasting is often the method of depleting liver glycogen. What I'm wondering is, maybe we think it's the liver glycogen depletion when it's partially that, but maybe also, or instead actually the fasting time. Because even what Mark Mattson said and I keep reading this, but he says, “The point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted and fatty acids are mobilized, typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.” It's a tiny nuance, but I'm wondering if we're focusing on this prevailing theory of liver glycogen depleting when really maybe that metabolic switch is the 12 hours. Maybe that's the metabolic switch. Maybe the metabolic switch isn't the glycogen.

Gin Stephens: I don't think so. I don't think it's time, and that's just because based on my experience and the experiments of so many other people, I actually can tell you when I've had vacations and I can tell I've refilled glycogen to the point that it takes me longer. I can tell some days that switch gets flipped sooner and a lot of it depends on what I ate the day before. So, no, I don't think 12 is the magic number. I think that is an average perhaps for someone who is metabolically flexible. Perhaps, if you're metabolically flexible around hour 12 is probably an average, that would be my hunch. But, no, I don't think it's time dependent. I do think it's energy balance dependent.

Melanie Avalon: My hunch is it might be more time dependent.

Gin Stephens: The reason that I don't think that that's true is just the way I feel differently on different days and I can pinpoint it, based on what I've been doing and how I've been eating.

Melanie Avalon: The other thing is liver glycogen caps at not that much. Usually, estimate is 100 grams, which is 400 calories. Even if you were to go on a crazy vacation, eat 5,000 carbs, it's actually not going to add any more extra liver glycogen. It'll fill muscles if they're not filled. So, there is more glycogen stores in the muscles, but that is reserved for the muscles. That's not going to affect probably your entrance into ketosis. So, you can't eat really more than what your liver glycogen stores allow, even if you go on a crazy, crazy, crazy carb binge. When you run out of glycogen stores in the liver and muscles, the carbs will either be burned off as energy or 2% to 3% up to potentially 10%, but it's probably more like 2% or 3%, will get turned into fat in the liver.

Gin Stephens: Can I interrupt real quick? I think it's a more gradual process than you're implying there because it's not like I go eat week on vacation. And then after day one of eating more, my glycogen is filled. I think just as we deplete it gradually overtime to get to the point where we're getting into ketosis every day, I don't think that you just eat one meal and then, bam, all that goes into glycogen storage. That's the thing. I know that the liver can only hold a certain amount, but I don't think that it refills it all up just from a meal. I've just noticed when I've had a day where I ate more, I'm fine. But it's when I've had several days-- It's like a gradual thing. Just like we have a gradual depletion, we have a gradual refilling.

Melanie Avalon: That's another thing is your liver glycogen stores. The more carbs you eat and long you eat, you can raise that potential to store more. I'm just confused, how does that affect when you would start generating ketones again?

Gin Stephens: Well, the last time I went on a cruise, I could tell it was a few days after being home before I started getting into ketosis during my fast. It took me a few days of being back on my normal fasting schedule. How do I know? Well, because I would need to take naps. I know my body well enough to know. Now, we have this ketone analyzer that you talk to them on your other podcast, and it's been really interesting that I can say, “Ooh, I feel like I'm in ketosis.” And then, I can blow and I'm getting numbers. Whereas I'm like, “Yeah, I can tell I'm not,” like first thing in the morning. But it's not always at the same time. It doesn't always correlate to, “Well, now I'm at 12 hours, I'm going to get a number.” Sometimes, it's earlier than 12 hours, depending on what I ate the day before or how much I ate if I had a short window. Sometimes, it's at 16 hours.

What's fascinating is, I've been doing this so long, I can feel when that metabolic switch is flipped, I feel it. And so, the breath ketone monitor has been great at confirming, like, “Ooh, I feel like the switch is flipped,” and then I'll use it and I'm like, “Yep, there it is.”

Melanie Avalon: So, if you eat a really big carb vacation meal, you think you don't get into ketosis at all the next day?

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, not if I just eat one big carb vacation meal. It takes a few days. Even if I just go away for a weekend and have two days with longer windows or something, it takes me more than just two days before my glycogen is filled up. If I go on cruise for five days, I'm going to come home and I'm going to have to re-deplete glycogen, I can feel it.

Melanie Avalon: So, when you have a big meal of carbs--?

Gin Stephens: I mean I have big, big carb meals every single day.

Melanie Avalon: You don't think it fills up your glycogen?

Gin Stephens: No. I don't think my body just shoves all those carbs into my liver. I think it uses a lot of them for energy because you're eating, your body’s using those carbs for energy. I think my body uses those carbs for energy that I've just eaten. And then, there may be a little bit to go into my glycogen stores, but not all of it.

Melanie Avalon: Because I'm not trying to argue or anything, just the thoughts that I'm having is that, it seems like people have glycogen stores filled or not filled, regardless if they fast like 16 hours, they're probably going to enter ketosis and it's not going to necessarily matter if the night before was keto, or was carbs if they're metabolic flexible. That's what I'm saying.

Gin Stephens: It really just all depends on what your body does with what you eat. And there's so many things your body could do with it depending on exercise and what you're doing.

Melanie Avalon: In these rats, the only group that did have to deplete glycogen completely to enter ketosis was aged rats on high-carb diets. So, presumably metabolically inflexible rats.

Gin Stephens: And again, depleting glycogen completely, I think is the thing that-- Mark Mattson didn't say you have to deplete it completely. You just have to get to the point. And maybe your liver is holding a reserve. It just depends that everybody has a different point. And it depends on how you've built up your fat-burning enzymes. I think there's a lot of factors here.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. What I'm saying is I think it's way more nuanced than the way it's posited because I think the way it's posited is everybody holds X amount of liver glycogen. You deplete liver glycogen, you enter ketosis. When it seems like it's more it depends on metabolic flexibility, depends on how easily your body can switch-- wants to switch to burning ketones, wants to make that switch. And if you are metabolically flexible, if you're doing a ketogenic diet that seems to make it. It seems like you're doing a ketogenic diet, so you're always keto all the time. Your body's not really going by glycogen at all for when it's generating certain amounts of ketones. But when you are eating carbs, if you're metabolically flexible, glycogen might not be playing as much as quite a big of a role in having to hit a certain depletion number before you switch over. But if you're metabolically inflexible, yeah, you've got to go through that, you've got to deplete.

Gin Stephens: I would just really encourage everybody to find that Mark Mattson’s article and read it, Flipping the Metabolic Switch, and dig into that. Dig into their references, go through that, and see what you can come up with yourself. But I do think Adam is correct that if you're not fat adapted, then you could have some issues, but that's the whole point of knowing that you're going to get to the other side of the fad adaption period. That's the whole point of the 28-day FAST Start in Fast. Feast. Repeat., is that your body is learning how to become fat adapted. And that's the part that takes time, and it can take more than 28 days if you're somebody who's very metabolically inflexible. That's just like a ballpark that you should give yourself at least that amount of time for it to happen. But once that switch is flipped, using the wording of Mark Mattson in his paper, that's when you become fat adapted.

The whole point is don't worry so much about what is your level of glycogen, where is it stored. Instead, you want to flip that metabolic switch so that your body can shift fuel sources as needed. And I think that's the only takeaway we really need to worry about. Fast sufficiently so that your body becomes fat adapted and you're able to switch fuel sources as needed to fuel your workout, to fuel your day, tap into your fat stores. I think that's all that matters.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, because I mean that's basically what I was saying is that it's more about the metabolic flexibility. The title of the study that I am referencing is called Metabolic Switching is impaired by aging and facilitated by ketosis independent of glycogen. To that point, what the study actually says, or what they say in their discussion is they say the prevailing theory regarding the initiation of ketogenesis is that ketone body production is triggered once the body depletes its glycogen stores. This glycogen depletion hypothesis likely stems from the body's natural metabolic response to vigorous exercise or longer fasts. It acknowledges that that is the prevailing theory. But then, it's talking about how there seemed to be a lot more-- a few more nuances and factors involved. But for listeners, yeah, we'll put links to all of this in the show notes so you can dive in deep. Like I said, this is just sort of my obsession just because I just feel like it's way more complicated.

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Melanie Avalon: To address Adam’s questions, he says he's heard that when your liver runs out of glycogen, if you're not fat adapted, then your metabolism slows down instead of your body accessing its fat stores. We pretty consistently see that when you run out of glycogen is when that metabolic switch will start to happen. I do think there's an adaptation period where the body is resistant to making that switch in the beginning and it's going to want to make you hungry, make you want to not make that switch. But I wouldn't be worried about your metabolism slowing down per se, especially since a lot of the studies show that the more you do fasting, the metabolism can actually rise. Do you have thoughts about that specific one?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't think we have any specific study exactly, like following someone through the liver glycogen depletion process and measuring their metabolism. But this is all theoretic, anyway.

Melanie Avalon: If there is, it will be like Christmas. I want to read it, please send it to me.

Gin Stephens: That'd be cool. I'd like to read it too. But theoretically, if your liver ran out of glycogen, and you had no more fuel, and your body is not well fueled, that's when your metabolism would start slowing down. But your body is going to find that fat and get adapted pretty darn quick. That's the point of it.

Melanie Avalon: You know what's actually really interesting? I'm reading Cate Shanahan’s Fatburn Fix right now, and I'm getting deeper into it. It's kind of how you have your FAST start and then the purpose of that is to make people metabolically flexible and adapted, you're not focusing on weight loss, it's to make these changes. So, her approach is actually very similar, but a little bit different. So, she has phase one. And the goal of phase one is to reduce these hypoglycemia symptoms because she talks about how-- actually, like Adam’s first point, people who aren't fat-adapted yet, when they do but have liver glycogen, the body just freaks out, it doesn't know what to do and you get hypoglycemia. So, her approach, which also is similar to, Gin, how you have, how to ease in with a ketogenic diet if people want. Don't you do like a ketogenic?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they can use the low carb, yep, ease-in meals, we call them.

Melanie Avalon: She actually recommends everybody for the phase one. It is so interesting. Unless you don't struggle with hypoglycemia symptoms. So, it's basically the people who do have this metabolic inflexibility, they start with a phase one, which is actually a ketogenic diet rather than fasting. And then, when you don't have hypoglycemia symptoms, you go to phase two, which actually integrates intermittent fasting. This is so interesting. So, it's a different approach than yours, but it's similar and it's speaks to this whole concept of--

Gin Stephens: Of getting adapted. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. When you're metabolically flexible, which is supported, like I said, by that rat study. When you're metabolically flexible and the body is able to switch fuel sources, then it just happens. And glycogen, we might not even necessarily know what's happening specifically there and things might be changing with that. I do want to talk about the second question, which was if your liver runs out when you're exercising and you're not fat adapted, your body will use protein and amino acids to provide energy instead of fat stores. The body breaks down protein for two different reasons from your muscle. One would be for amino acids during catabolic activity. So, if you're breaking down muscle, you're breaking down muscle, like doing resistance training and things like that. Yes, that will break down muscle for amino acids. However, we talked about this actually I think last episode maybe. When you eat, again, you feed, in your feeding in your eating window, that's restored. So, that's not a problem.

I think he's probably more thinking about he says to provide energy. So, yes, the body can turn to protein to create glucose if it's not metabolically flexible, everything I just said, because it has the option. So, if it's not metabolically flexible, you run out of liver glycogen, it can start burning fats, it can start doing ketones, but it also has the option of actually still trying to go the sugar route. And to do that, it will break down muscle into amino acids to create blood sugar, which is not something we want. But that is why I think a lot of people get stuck in that phase. Like I just said with Cate Shanahan’s, talking about people having hypoglycemia problems. The solution to that is becoming fat adapted, and then it shouldn't as much be a problem because your body will be switching to fats rather than trying to make carbs from amino acids.

Gin Stephens: Also, one other thing I thought you were going to say and you didn't. When you're exercising, you can get glycogen stored from your muscle as well. There's glycogen stored there that can fuel your muscles.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's actually the primary fuel for them.

Gin Stephens: Right. Running out of glucose in the liver, he mentions, but you've got some glycogen in your muscles already too.

Melanie Avalon: So, locally, the glycogen in your muscles will be feeding those muscles. The hypoglycemia symptoms will probably come in from the liver, that would be the thing that's doing that. So, that process of like, “Oh, let's break down muscle to create blood sugar,” that would probably be liver dependent, I'm guessing.

And then, his thing about exercise at the end of a fast empties your liver and actually trains your body to be fat adapted. I do think we see pretty well a lot of people when they do exercise at the end of a fast, I think a lot of people do find benefit from it, especially if they're struggling to get fat adapted because-- I don’t know. I'm not talking chronic cardio high-intensity endurance for a long time. But slow-moving exercise at the end of a fast, I think, would be a great way because if it's slow moving, it's telling your body, “Hey, we need long-term fuel here.” So, it's not going to be stimulating, like asking for quick blood sugar. I think slower movement, exercise type at the end of a fast like walking, yoga, things like that might be more supportive of making that switch.

Actually, to that point, one other thing I forgot to mention from that rat study was they actually found--and this is something that users of the Lumen device that I've talked about before, which is like a breath carb analyzer, have been finding. They often are finding that exercise during the fast or if they're doing a ketogenic diet, seems to switch them over to carb burning. And this study with the rats, they found that the ketogenic fasting rats when they injected them with epinephrine-- so, basically a stress response, to mimic exercise, the ketogenic rats actually released more blood sugar in response. They had a higher blood glucose response from exercise, which was really, really fascinating. They argue that that show that the rats were more metabolically flexible because they could generate more glucose on-demand from adrenaline aka stress or exercise. I don't know how I feel about that conclusion. It was really, really fascinating regardless.

Lastly, we didn't answer yet, Beth’s question about, “Do you need more carbs to fuel your exercise for glycogen stores?” So, there have been a lot of studies on people on-- more on, I've seen studies on ketogenic diets and athletes tend to adapt eventually to the ketogenic diet, and then they're not dependent on glycogen during exercise. Their glycogen stores typically don't really change that much during exercise because they're fat adapted. If you're not fat-adapted, you likely might need more carbs. And then a lot of high performing athletes just find that honestly, especially if it's like high intensity that they just need more carbs. And I think a lot of people, especially they've been doing ketogenic diets for a long time with fasting, maybe their energy's not quite there, they often find that adding in more carbs to their eating window really does help their performance.

Beth was talking about how she feels like she can't have the best of both worlds. Like if she brings in carbs, her endurance increases, but she doesn't lose the weight. I would suggest, Beth, if you haven't, trying a low-fat, high-carb diet, you might find that with intermittent fasting, I think that might give you the best of both worlds where you're going to be able to fuel that exercise with enough glycogen and then not having the fat with it, you might find that you lose weight.

Gin Stephens: I also wanted to point out that, Beth said her weight loss stalled. She said she was lower carb and then started to eat, what she said was “less clean,” and she had more endurance. Basically, she was lower carb, added some more carbs in, had more endurance. And then, she says my weight loss stalled. I think that she might possibly have had some confusion there with her weight because if you reintroduce carbs, your body can retain excess water with the extra carbs. As you have more glycogen, your body holds water with the glycogen. And also, when you're having more endurance, maybe she's building muscle, but I think you can't just strictly go by what the scale is saying.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Actually, I'm so glad you brought that up. I missed that. Also, she's correlating that she eats higher carbs which are less clean, and her weight loss stalls. It might not be the carbs making your weight loss stall, it might be the less clean aspect of it.

Gin Stephens: It's hard to know what she means by that and how much of a different change there was. But just we know that reintroducing carbs, whether they're “clean” or not, can lead to water retention, and it's not a bad thing and it's not fat gain, and it can make the scale go up. So, you can be like, “Oh my gosh, I'm gaining weight.” When really, you're not gaining fat. And it feels like your weight loss is stalling but really, it's just you have a different water balance than you had before.

Melanie Avalon: It could be that when she was eating clean, she wasn't having inflammation from the foods. And if she’s starting to eat these “less clean foods,” we don't know what they are, but inflammation can play a massive role. So, if you're taking in inflammatory foods, I would hardcore encourage you, Beth-- You said that when you eat cleaner that naturally makes you eat less carbs. You can eat high carb "clean,” not hard. Fruits are high in carbs, sweet potatoes, starches, rice. I would at 100% like dying to know. I'd love for you to try a “clean” especially since that seems to work for you a “clean,” whole foods, high-carb approach. See what happens. And if that doesn't work for low-fat version of that. So, things to experience.

I think a lot of people adapt to exercise with low carb diets, but some just never do. And they find that when they bring in the carbs, they're able to. And then, if you want to lose weight, looking at those types of carbs and what you're eating, and whether or not you're eating fat can play a huge, huge role.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And as you're switching carbs in and out, I would really use progress photos to see-- Somebody today in one of the Facebook groups posted a photo. And she's like, “I've only lost one pound and I'm so discouraged.” And she posted side-by-side photos, and it was like incredible the difference between the two. So, the scale doesn't tell the true story. If you thought you'd only lost one pound, that would be really discouraging. But you looked at her photos and you're like, “Man, look at how--” it was the same shirt she had in the other photo, and it was like loose as opposed to being skin tight. It was incredible the difference between the two photos. She's like, "What am I doing wrong?” What you're doing wrong is letting the scale be the Debbie Downer here. Sorry if your name is Debbie. I don't know. I feel bad for everybody named Debbie because when I say Debbie Downer-- [laughs] Don't let your scale be your downer when you're seeing results somewhere else.

Melanie Avalon: That's such a great point. All right. So, a lot there.

Gin Stephens: This is from Jessica. And her subject is Daylight Savings Time Changes. I would like to actually just propose let's just quit doing that. Let's just leave the time where it is. I don't like the switching. The switching drives me crazy. All right.

She says, “Hello, Gin and Melanie. I'm a huge fan of all your podcasts and listen to you weekly. I started IF in January of this year, and then found Delay, Don't Deny in March. Since then, I've joined all the Facebook groups, read all your books, and truly immersed myself in learning as much as I can about the benefits of fasting daily. Since January, I've lost 30 pounds and dropped from a size 14 pushing to a 16 to a size 10. I've also seen a dramatic decrease in inflammation and IBS symptoms.

My husband has also joined me on this journey, dropping from a size 40 waist to a 36. And together, we have adopted a 24, one-meal-a-day pattern and love it. This is truly the lifestyle we want to live long term.

As I stated before, I started my IVF journey in the winter. So, my question may seem a bit silly, but I'm wondering if you have any advice for successfully transitioning through the time change to the fall, winter seasons. I'm particularly worried about having less outdoor time and less sunlight hours, as these have been my go-to escapes while fasting.

I'm having a hard time envisioning what one meal a day will look like in the colder months. Right now, I love taking my Topo Chico outside and sipping on it throughout my lunch break, but that won't be as appealing when it's a rainy Oregon day outside. I always get a bit sad when it's dark in the morning and dark again by 6:00 PM. In the past, that sadness has been buffered by hearty foods and delicious beverages, and I'm nervous about falling into old habits. Thank you for taking the time to ease the mind of a worrier and obsessive planner. Jessica.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Jessica. So, this is a great question. And two big things we can tackle, the practical approaches to working with the time change and stuff like that, and then the mental aspect of everything she talks about. Okay, just from a light perspective, Jessica, get a Joovv if you don't have a Joovv. Because regulating your circadian rhythm I think is so important and one of the nice things about it is I consciously regulate my circadian rhythm every single day regardless of the time change or how light works in the world. I always am hacking it at home myself. So, in the morning, bright light exposure, I have a Daylight, like high-lux device that outputs really bright light. Those are often used to treat things like seasonal affective disorder. I'll put a link in the show notes to the one that I have. It's called Daylight.

And then, I run my Joovv devices for ambient lighting in the morning and evening, so that's red and near-infrared light. So, red is the type of light naturally found in the rising and setting sun. So, when you have it in the morning and in the evening, you're mimicking that rising and setting feeling regardless of what it actually is outside. I know most people who turn to Joovv for like skin health or muscle recovery or the metabolic benefits, honestly for the mood, it's my thing. I can't even express my gratitude I have for it.

And then, on top of that, I know this is controversial, but I would actually really, really suggest in the darker months getting a membership at a tanning bed. You want to get the UVB beds. So, those actually typically tend to be the cheaper beds because that's the wavelength that does make people burn. But it's the wavelength that is going to stimulate vitamin D production in your skin. And I'm talking about going for a minute. I'm not talking like-- you're not going in there to get tanned. You're just going in there to get some natural vitamin D exposure. You can weigh the cost benefits. I know skin cancer is a real thing, I don't take it lightly. But I think for a lot of people, especially if you're struggling with vitamin D levels, especially if you're struggling with mood, having exposure to UV light to generate vitamin D in your skin, especially in darker months, can be huge. So, I get a package in the winter. Proceed with caution. I'm not doctor, but I do really, really suggest that. I have some other things, but Gin, did you want to say some things?

Gin Stephens: Well, I was just going to say to Jessica or anybody else who is in a similar situation, a lot of people started fasting in January, especially after intermittent fasting was everywhere in December after Mark Mattson’s article came out in New England Journal of Medicine and then everyone was talking about intermittent fasting everywhere. So, I'm sure there's a lot of people who started right at the same time. I want you to just stop worrying right now, everybody who started at the same time. You will just gradually find that you start to crave different things, you will find that you start to just-- it'll happen. It happens gradually, just as the seasons change gradually.

For example, one day I'm drinking my San Pellegrino, and then the next day I'm like, “Ooh, I think I would like a hot mug of water,” a mug of hot water. We call it [unintelligible [00:59:31]. Have I told you that, Melanie, have you heard me call it that? Somebody in the group made that up. I can't remember who. I put it in Fast. Feast. Repeat., because I love it so much. So, you'll have a new routine, Jessica, instead of having Topo Chico outside, you'll have a mug of hot water and you'll be somewhere cozy. And it'll feel great because Christmas Carols will be on or something. You'll just have something to look forward to it.

Yeah, you probably will have more hearty foods, but I find my body craves those. I have a shift in what I want. When we stop the podcast for today, I'm going to go and break my fast, and I'm going to have-- I have some broccoli, and I have some hummus. I'm going to have that. It's going to be delicious. But if it were December, I would probably not be craving cold broccoli and hummus. I would want something maybe cozier, like you said, maybe a mug of soup or something like that. So, you'll make the shift. It'll happen gradually as the weather changes. I promise you, you can do it.

Melanie Avalon: You could also get super-duper excited about winter like I am. No, guys, it's funny, I have the opposite response. I'm like winter is the time to get in shape, get that cold therapy, get those longevity genes going, make your body stronger. Honestly, we could have a complete reframe here.

Gin Stephens: I'm just so sad when I have to put on pants, shoes.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. It's so funny how we're all so different. I literally dread the coming of summer and love the coming of winter. And then, people have the complete opposite response.

Gin Stephens: It's true.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all of the stuff that we like, that's at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram, we're @ifpodcast. I'm at @melanieavalon. Gin is at @ginstephens. Oh, and I forgot to mention. The Lumen thing I mentioned, I started a group for people who have that device or who have a Biosense Ketone Analyzer and that is called Lumen Lovers and Biosense Biohackers. You can also join my Facebook group, IF Biohackers. Anything else, Gin, you'd like to put out there? Get Fast. Feast. Repeat. at Target?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, well, in November, don't go out and get it yet because it's not there, although you can order it online from Target. They have it online, but anywhere that sells books I think you can get it in their online, but in the actual store, you can wait till November. I'm so excited.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, talk to you then. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, Gin's Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle, Feast Without Fear: Food and the Delay, Don't Deny Lifestyle and/or Gin's Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Clean Fast Protocol for Health, Longevity, and Weight Loss--Including the 21-Day FAST Start Guide

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Intermittent Fasting Stories

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com  

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Sep 06

Episode 177: Don’t Fear the Plateaus, Fasting Insulin, Muscle Gains, Mindset, Growth Hormone, Hunger, Blood Glucose Levels And More!

Intermittent Fasting

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 177 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

MOLEKULE: Clean air is vital for health! Molekule air purifiers actually work on molecule level (thus the name!) to eliminate - not just mask or neutralize - indoor air pollution, including pollutants 1000 times smaller than traditional HEPA filters! Say goodbye to viruses, mold, airborne chemicals, bacteria, and allergens! After all, if you’re breathing clearer with serrapeptase, don’t you want to breath cleaner air to boot? Go To molekule.com And Use The Code ifpodcast10 At Checkout For 10% Off Your First Order!

AUDIBLE: This is Melanie's well-known secret for reading #allthebooks #allthetime! Audible provides the largest selection of audiobooks on the planet, in every genre! With Audible, you can listen on any device, anytime, anywhere! Every month, members get 1 credit to pick any title, unlimited Audible Originals, access to daily news digests (The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and The Washington Post), guided meditation programs, Audible Sleep, and more! Audible provides rollover credits, easy exchanges, discounts on titles beyond credits, and audiobooks you'll keep forever! For those with children, check out the free Stories.Audible.com! Go To audible.com/ifpodcast Or Text IFPODCAST To 500500 For A 30 Day Free Trial, Including A Free Audiobook!

BLUBlox: Overexposure to blue light in our modern environments can lead to increased anxiety, stress, headaches, and other health conditions. Even a tiny exposure to artificial light can completely offset your circadian rhythm! Unlike many “blue light blocking” glasses on the market, BLUBlox provides glasses that block the exact blue wavelengths you need to regulate sleep, reduce anxiety, and much more! They also provide different types of glasses for the time of day, season, and your personal electronic and light exposure! Plus, for every BLUblox purchase, they donate a pair of glasses to someone in need! Go To bluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:05 - BLUBLOX: Go To BluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

2:55 - BEAUTY COUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

10:00 - MOLEKULE: Go To Molekule.com And Use The Code ifpodcast10 At Checkout For 10% Off Your First Order!

Molekule Testing

15:15 - Listener Q&A: Allison - Plateau

Gin Stephens: Intermittent Fasting Approaches, Boosting Metabolism, Making Progress, Hunger Hormones, Breaking Through Plateaus, How To Weigh Yourself, Alternate Day Fasting, Body Recomposition, And More!

25:00 - AUDIBLE: Go To Audible.com/IFPODCAST Or Text IFPODCAST To 500500 For A 30 Day Free Trial, Including A Free Audiobook! 

27:30 - Listener Q&A: Amy - Muscle gains

29:00 - Listener Q&A: Zack - Alternate day fasting, growth hormone, and resistance training

Stronger By Stress: Adapt to Beneficial Stressors to Improve Your Health and Strengthen the Body (Siim Land)

38:55 - Listener Q&A: Camille - Hunger during fasting

KOMUSO SHIFT: Get Yours Today At www.komusodesign.com And Use The Code IFPODCAST To Get 20% Off!!

45:05 - Listener Q&A: Margaux - IF and elevated Blood Glucose Levels

Melanie's Glucose Monitor

Ami Brannon (Xen By Neuvana): Vagus Nerve Toning, Meditation Alternatives, The Mind/Body Connection, Rebalance Your Body, Lasting Stress Relief, Neuroplasticity, Polyvagal Theory, And More!

Lumen Lovers: Biohack Your Carb And Fat Burning (With Melanie Avalon)

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 177 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, do you struggle to wind down at night? Do you sometimes feel tired and wired? Do you just feel your brain won't shut off? People ask about this all the time. They're stressed, their cortisol is up, so many things. And honestly, the first thing I recommend is getting a pair of blue light blocking glasses. It can seem such a simple thing but the effects are profound. Basically, we are way overexposed to blue light today, through our electronic devices, our indoor lighting and so much more. What does blue light do? It's really stimulating. It keeps you alert. It encourages the release of cortisol and it stops the production of melatonin. If you're living in our modern lifestyle and looking at our modern light, good luck falling asleep. With blue light blocking glasses, you can actually completely take charge of your light exposure.

And did you know that most blue light blocking glasses on the market don't actually block the blue light that they say they're blocking? That's why Andy Mant founded a company called BLUblox. He did tests a lot of common blue light blocking glasses and realized they just weren't doing what they said they were doing. He took things into his own hands, and goodness, am I grateful for that! BLUblox makes an array of blue light blocking glasses. They are clear computer glasses you can use to reduce eyestrain while looking at electronics all day. They have their yellow-tinged SummerGlo glasses that block some blue light to wear during the day and are also tinged with a special yellow color shown to boost mood. And then, of course, they have their Sleep+ lens. Those are red tinged. They block all blue light and you put them on before sleep. They ensure that you can wind down and produce that melatonin. They've also got a Sleep Mask called Sleep REMedy. Guys, game changer.

You can get 15% off BLUblox which also comes in prescription by the way, at blublox.com/ifpodcast. For every pair of blue light blocking glasses that you buy, BLUblox donates a pair of glasses to someone in need.

One more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that what you put on your skin gets direct access to your bloodstream and in your body can do a lot of detrimental things? So, while you may be fasting clean, you may at the same time be infusing your body with endocrine disrupters, which can mess with your hormones, obesogens meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight and even carcinogens.

In Europe, they've banned thousands of these compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup, and the US has banned less than 10. In fact, most conventional lipstick, for example, is high in lead, and the half-life of lead in the body can be up to 30 years. That means every time you put on some lipstick, you might be putting some lead into your bones, which might not leave for three decades. This is a big deal.

Thankfully, there's an easy all-encompassing answer. There's a company called Beauty Counter, and they were founded on a mission to make skincare and makeup products that are safe for your skin. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to not burden your body and support your skin health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd like to learn more about safe beauty and also get a ton of amazing discounts and free things from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. It's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty.

Not sure which Beauty Counter products to try? I also just made a whole series of online quizzes to match you to your perfect product. Those are at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. So, here's to fasting clean inside and out. All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 177 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great, feeling good. I've just started a new routine, which I'm enjoying.

Melanie Avalon: What is that?

Gin Stephens: When I was a teacher, I had someone who came and cleaned my house every other Friday and it was fabulous. Then when I started working from home, I did not like having someone cleaning my house, but I had gotten out of the habit. It's funny when you're out of the habit of a cleaning routine, it's really hard to get back into one. So, I just decided-- I've been sporadically cleaning here and there, but I've decided, okay, every day, I'm going to deep clean one room. And just that is my task for the day, and then boom.

Melanie Avalon: It's really good exercise.

Gin Stephens: It is good exercise. I mopped my great room. We have a giant great room. It's really, really big. But I mopped it yesterday and my arms were like, “Wow, this is quite a workout.”

Melanie Avalon: It really is. I see it as so much multitasking. You get your workout in and you're clean, and stress relief from clean. I mean, it's the best.

Gin Stephens: And then, you feel so good. When you look around and you see that it's clean. So, yeah. Anyway, I'm really enjoying it, and I'm going to have a clean house. I just don't like having somebody clean my house, I realized.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I do. Well, I like having somebody come weekly to keep everything really clean. But then, I like to be organizing and cleaning as well, mostly for the bathroom.

Gin Stephens: You'd like for somebody to clean the bathroom?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Well, really the reason I loved it for all so many years is when my boys were living at home because every time I would clean their bathroom, I would have rage. When you have sons-- I don't know, maybe if you have daughters, it's the same. If you have a child who's really, really messy in the bathroom. One of my two sons, the musician of the two, I'm not even sure he turned the lights on when he went to the bathroom or even looked at the toilet. It was always such a mess, I was like you have to be trying for the bathroom to be this dirty. So anyway, I was always in a white-hot rage when I would clean the bathroom. Now, he's not here. It's just me and Chad. And Chad, he's got very neat bathroom habits.

Melanie Avalon: That's like my dad and my mom.

Gin Stephens: He's good in the bathroom?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my dad's a neat freak.

Gin Stephens: That's good. Well, I wouldn't say Chad's a neat freak, but he has good bathroom cleanliness habits, which is really important. Girls, figure that out before you get married. It's true that whoever marries my son that has the bathroom difficulties, I'm sorry, I tried.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: Not my fault. The other one’s clean. Anyway, I really did like having that task to somebody else, but I think I do a better job cleaning my bathroom than somebody else. I'm very meticulous. I apparently have a way I want it to be.

Melanie Avalon: I hear you.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, it's good, I'm enjoying this new routine. And now I'm like-- it was like I flipped the switch because I was like trying to decide, “Am I going to get somebody or am I not?” And I finally was like, “No, I just want to do it.” And then, I was like, “Alright, I'm doing it.”

Melanie Avalon: Well, I support that. Actually, related story that happened to my apartment and lack of cleanliness from it. The other day, or the other night, well, you guys know I'm a late-night person eater, night owl. Around, I'd say 11:00 PM, I was walking in the kitchen and I felt a raindrop on my head. And I looked up and my light was dripping some water. And I was like, “Oh, that's--”

Gin Stephens: That's never a good sign.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I was like, “That's not good.” But I was thinking maybe it was the air conditioner leaking or something. So, I called maintenance. This is 11:00 PM. Fast forward to 3:00 AM and by that point, it was like a torrential downpour in my entire kitchen. Maintenance didn't end up coming until 2:30 AM. So, from 11:00 PM to 2:30 AM, it just started getting worse and worse. I'll have to send you a video. Did I send you a video? I did. Right?

Gin Stephens: You did. It was also hilarious, I need to tell listeners because it was all done with red light because I can tell you really do honestly have your Joovv on all the time. I was like, “Oh my God, she has her Joovv lighting the room.” Melanie is not kidding. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I sent it to another friend, and I have my calming music every night. She was like, “If you took the context out,” she's like, “This is really soothing,” [laughs] because it's like a gentle rainfall sound.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it was. Gentle rainfall, red light therapy.

Melanie Avalon: Listeners, it was awful. And in the meantime, I went to the people above me and knocked on three different occasions really loud, but they were clearly asleep, and maintenance wasn't coming. And I was like, “What do I do?” So, I called the 24-hour water department and they're like, “You have to call 911.” So, I called 911. And the fire department came, and I realized I love the fire department. They're just amazing.

Gin Stephens: Well, for so many ways, we love the fire department.

Melanie Avalon: They're so great. I guess the people above me were there. They were just asleep. So, the fire department got in there and it was their refrigerator.

Gin Stephens: Like the icemaker?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, the filter. Thank goodness it wasn't plumbing, like toilet or something like that. I was really upset because basically, it's soaked through the entire ceiling and mold is-- I just can't have. I lived in a moldy apartment for two years and I start crying. I just can't do that again. I know. That's the perfect situation, especially in the summer in Georgia. So, I was super, super worried about that. So, they ran commercial dehumidifiers. But I was like, okay, because we have that the Molekule air purifier. I had read that it was combative against mold, but I hadn't actually read the studies. I was like, “Okay, this is the moment.” So, then I went and read all the studies. Oh, my goodness. I'm so relieved.

I actually pulled up the papers that they conducted on their studies and I feel so, so happy. I'll put links to all this in the show notes. The show notes are at ifpodcast.com/episode177. In one study, for example, they did it three times and they compared-- they used a technology called PECO that actually works to destroy viruses and mold and bacteria on a molecular level because traditional HEPA filters, they just physically take in or trap the bacteria and viruses, but they don't actually destroy it. And then, they don't destroy a lot of probably viruses and things that are really, really tiny. They can't get even those really tiny particles. The PECO filter, when they've tested it on mold, it reduced the mold spores by 99.9991%. I am so happy, I'm smiling right now. And they tested it on lots of other things, bacteria, but they tested it actually on two viruses related to COVID and it as well reduced it by 99.9935%.

So, the technology actually meets the performance criteria in FDA guidance for use in helping to reduce risk of exposure to SARS-CoV-2 in healthcare settings.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's huge.

Melanie Avalon: That's huge. And I didn't realize this. They're actually an FDA-cleared, 510(k) Class II medical device intended for medical purposes to destroy bacteria and viruses in the air. I did not realize this. So, long story short. I'm really, really rocking the Molekule right now. And what I also love about it is, it's really pretty. It's really like sleek and modern design, kind of feels like the Apple of air purifiers. And it also has a silent mode. So, it's actually the only air purifier I can run while we're podcast recording, which is incredible. So, yeah, that's something good that came out of this, as I have a newfound appreciation. I actually think I'm going to order another unit.

But for, listeners, we do have a discount code. And they also come in all different sizes, so they have their Molekule Air. That's what I have. It's for larger rooms up to 600 square feet. They have their Air Mini for smaller rooms up to 250 square feet. And they have their Air Mini+, which has the additional features of a particle sensor and an auto-protect mode, which actually adjusts the fan speed based on the sensor. I think that's the one I'm going to get. Yeah, I just decided.

But in any case, for listeners, we do have a discount code, you can get 10% off your first air purifier order, just go to molekule.com. That's M-O-L-E-K-U-L-E dotcom. And at checkout, you can enter the code IFPODCAST10. So that's molekule.com, with the coupon code, IFPODCAST10 for 10% off. Again, I'll put links to all this in the show notes and I'll put links to all those studies. So, yeah, especially with COVID and how we know that airborne nature of it.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I feel like if I was still a classroom teacher, I would probably put one in my classroom.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my goodness. Yes. That is so true. I feel everybody should put one in their location. So, yeah. And then one last thing from the situation and then we can move on. But maintenance people did bring this massive commercial dehumidifier. Did I tell you my epiphany that I had?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: So, I ran it. And then, the next morning when I woke up after the dehumidifier, the air was dry and it felt like California air, and literally my first thought was, I'm moving back to California. I just knew. It was an epiphany.

Gin Stephens: You like drier air?

Melanie Avalon: I do.

Gin Stephens: Okay. It makes a big difference. We just got a new air conditioner in our bedroom that is better at clearing extra humidity and it actually makes it feel better.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I love it. But literally, I woke up and I was like, “California. Here I come.” I was thinking of Alaska. “Nope. California.”

Gin Stephens: Are you definitely moving back or just it sounds fun?

Melanie Avalon: I mean not right now but that convinced me. I think I want to move to Calabasas.

Gin Stephens: Okay, it's pretty.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I'm thinking maybe next spring because I can do winter here. I love winter here.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Yup. Shall we jump into all this stuff for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, our first question comes from Alison, the subject is Plateau. And Alison says, “Mel, Gin. Thank you both for these informative podcasts. I've learned a ton in the three weeks or so that I've been listening. I never knew I fasted dirty, and I've struggled for years with weight just creeping up each year. For the first time in over 18 months, my weight and inches are reversing. I'm a believer. And now, I know how to fast clean. My question is, is there an average timeframe for when an individual starts IF to hit plateau? Two months, six months? I'm terrified that now that I'm trending in the right direction, my body will plateau before I hit my goal. Thanks for teaching us. Allie.” All right.

Gin Stephens: That's a great question. And the answer is no. There is no average timeframe for really-- I guess, okay, that's actually false mathematically. If you took all IFers together and added together their results, there 100% would be an average timeframe because everything has an average.

Melanie Avalon: I was just going to say it's so funny you can never say there’s never-- [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Mathematically, yes, but is there one that pops up over and over again that we can pinpoint? The answer's no. We do not have anecdotal average timeframe. Mathematically, there's an average to everything but we don't have one because it's so very different from person to person. I don't want you to worry about that. That's the thing. Don't be afraid of what might happen. Instead, wake up every day and focus on what's happening now, instead of living in fear of the future. And this is also why I want you to get Fast. Feast. Repeat, if you haven't read it yet. And I want you to read the Scale-Schmale Chapter, because you may find like I did, if you've heard my story, there was a point when I stopped weighing. After the first year of maintenance, I completely stopped weighing. And I went for on 17 months and then like that without weighing. And during that period of time, I dropped two more jean sizes. Even though I was in maintenance, I continued to get smaller. And so, I assumed that my weight was also going down. I thought I had lost probably 10 more pounds at least. And so, I got on the scale, and I was only down like two pounds. It made me mad because I was like, I should be down 10 pounds to drop two jean sizes down. Then, I realized the scale was no longer meaningful in my life, and that's the day I threw my scale in the trash and I haven't weighed myself as far as like, “Here's my weight since.”

So, what I want you to do is have a whole toolbox of strategies from the Scale-Schmale Chapter, so that even if your scale comes to a screeching halt, you're continuing to check with your inches you mentioned. Your honesty pants, get a pair of goal pants that are smaller than you are right now, try those on periodically, see how you're fitting into them differently. Once you fit into those, get another pair until you get to your goal size. Take progress photos. I don't want you to overly focus on just the scale, because if so, you're going to be disappointed at some point along the way.

And like I said, that's when I threw my scale in the trash when I realized that I was mad that my scale didn't say a preconceived number I had in my head, even though I was buying size zero jeans at the loft. And so that made me realize I got a disconnect from this measuring tool for me. So, don't be worried about am I going to plateau? When's that going to happen? Instead, get a bunch of measures and realize that when the scale stops trending downward, you may be shrinking in size, or vice versa. You could stay the same size but have the scale go down if maybe you're losing visceral fat. Don't just go by one thing. As long as something is trending in the right direction, you're making progress.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. When I read this question, I'm so glad I read your book, Gin, and to had you on the show because now when I read the questions, I'm like, “Oh, Gin talks about this in detail in this part.”

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because I literally talked about everything because I know what questions people ask. Right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Actually, for listeners, I don't think we announced it on this podcast yet, but I did interview Gin on my show, and I'm not sure when this episode is coming out. That episode is coming out probably around the time that this episode is coming out.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's fun.

Melanie Avalon: Because it's coming out actually next week. I think next week, probably will have already aired. I'll put a link to it in the show notes, everything Gin said. It's so interesting how things can be going so well and yet our brains want to anticipate failure. Maybe it's just because we're so in awe of something actually working, we think that it can't keep working but a plateau does not mean it's not working.

Gin Stephens: Correct. So important.

Melanie Avalon: It's maintaining a weight and a lifestyle where you are getting the benefits of fasting, you're getting to eat what you want in your eating window. There's nothing wrong with that. That's called just living your life and a lifestyle that supports you. So, I don't think there's anything to fear with plateau. We need another word for plateau. We just need to call it life, I guess.

Gin Stephens: Oh, can I tell you a story that somebody shared in the Facebook group today? It kind of just popped up in my mind when people worry about this isn't working, something's wrong with me. Somebody in the group had been plateaued for a long time and not losing weight, not losing weight, not losing weight, like for a year and a half, not losing weight, but needed to lose weight. And so, finally found a doctor that would do a wide variety of tests. Well, all of her blood work came back beautiful, except for one measure. One measure was off-the-charts high.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, I want to guess.

Gin Stephens: Okay, go ahead and guess.

Melanie Avalon: Give me a hint.

Gin Stephens: Well, her A1c was beautiful.

Melanie Avalon: Okay.

Gin Stephens: Fasting glucose was nice. Guess what was crazy high, off-the-charts high? What would make you not lose weight?

Melanie Avalon: Cortisol?

Gin Stephens: No, her fasting insulin level was at the highest measurable-- it was all the way at the top of whatever graph they had, it was up there. And so, fortunately, I think she was talking to a nurse practitioner in the doctor's office who understands fasting, insulin, weight loss. It was someone who understands all that. The nurse practitioner said, “Well, there you go, that is why you are not losing any weight. You've got to get your insulin down.” And this is somebody in the group who admitted that she had not been fasting clean up to this point. I wonder how many people there are who are fasting but not fasting clean. But she said this was the wake-up call she needed because it wasn't working and then, she had her tests done and the insulin was crazy high. And so, she and the nurse practitioner talked about, “All right, you've got to fast clean. You've got to get that insulin down.”

Melanie Avalon: Wow.

Gin Stephens: I know that just goes to show you that little thing that you think isn't making a difference. Maybe you're A1c is perfect. You're like, “Why am I not losing weight? What's wrong?” If you're doing a little something-something, yes, that's probably causing more of a problem than you think. But if you can get your fasting insulin checked-- I really think that people who are stuck and having a hard time, if they could just get that one measure, their fasting insulin, but finding a doctor who will do it, I think is the challenge for many. It's such an important test. I told you that Chad and I had ours done. Did I tell you that?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: I must have talked about it on my podcast. We each had that measured and there's like a range of normal, 5 to something is the normal range. I was at the very, very, very, very low, low, low, low, low end of normal. Chad's was like way below normal.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?

Gin Stephens: Well, but think about what we know about Chad. He's never struggled with his weight and always worried about trying to even gain weight when he was younger, and it makes total sense. He has naturally low levels of insulin all the time. So, gaining weight is a struggle for him. But I was really happy to see that mine was low. I'm certain if I had it tested back when I was obese, I'm sure it would have been high. But thank goodness for fasting, I think it's corrected it.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if he has the supercentenarian gene.

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. I'm feeling doubtful about that. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm fascinated by the supercentenarian gene. We've talked about it before but basically, most supercentenarians, they often don't seem to-- I have talked about this before, but they don't seem to follow any one diet or necessarily like live “healthy lifestyles” that they live to like 110 or so. They think it's because their genes literally turn on all of the epigenetic and genetic processes that we have to do by lifestyle and diet, their body just does it. So, they're like good to go.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it counteracts everything.

Melanie Avalon: Because everything we're doing with fasting and diet is honestly to turn on these genes to create certain processes that happen in our body. And if the body just does that anyway, then you're set.

Gin Stephens: Well, anyway, it's fascinating that you can be fasting and not seeing the results you're looking for, and you may need to take that extra step to lower your insulin even more. That's why an alternate day fasting protocol can be so beneficial for people who are stuck with the daily eating window approach. And you may need to also tweak what you're eating, if that describes you because getting your insulin down can be related to what you're eating in your eating window, but the alternate daily fasting is a great way to do that. Also, fast clean. If you're not, then I really would start there, but it made me happy to see that she's getting answers and she's like, “Okay, I'm finally a believer now.” I was like, “Okay, I'm sorry that it took that to convince you but I'm glad that you are.” Some of us have to learn the hard way.

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We have two that go together. All right, so the first one is from Amy and the subject is Muscle Gains. And Amy says, "Hello Gin and Melanie, I stumbled onto your podcast and started fasting in April of 2019 and haven't looked back. I absolutely love your podcast, this way of life and have never looked or felt better. I am a 43-year-old mother of four children. I just graduated from graduate school and am now a family nurse practitioner. Yay me!” And I say, “Yay, to you, too, Amy,” congratulations.

“I primarily do 16:8, 7 days a week. I work out fasted, CrossFit-style workouts about three to five days a week. I'm 5’2" and weigh between 110 to 114. I started at 128. I'd really like to gain about five pounds of muscle. My gym people tell me protein, protein, protein. What do you suggest is the best way for me to add muscle? I don't want to mess with autophagy. I currently eat lunch around 12:00 or 1:00 and eat dinner around 6:30. I don't really snack. I eat all the things and don't calorie count. I take a multivitamin and take NAD+ GOLD. I really appreciate any guidance you can give me. Thank you for putting together this podcast and being such a valuable resource for those of us navigating the fasting lifestyle. Your fan in Florida, Amy.”

And then, Zach says, "alternate day, fasting growth hormone, and resistance training." “Hello Gin and Melanie, sorry in advance for the long question.” And Zach, it is not a long question. We have seen a long question. This is not a long question. Zach says, “Thank you both for all that you do. I'm a former college football player who is down to 210 pounds from around 300 pounds, thanks to IF and eating whole/paleo-ish foods. I really appreciate all that you have done for me personally and the IF community as a whole. I've been one meal a day for the most part for about one and a half years. I want to start putting on more muscle by doing resistance training, specifically weightlifting. To do so, I plan on starting to do alternate day fasting, where I eat and lift on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday and clean fast on Tuesday, Thursday, and Sunday.”

“My question, if I want to take full advantage of the growth hormone associated with autophagy and long fasts, would you recommend that I lift on the morning of my eating days completely fasted or after eating something that won't completely down-regulate autophagy, i.e., no protein? If you suggest that I eat before my workouts, what would be the best macronutrient breakdown to ensure that I still have light levels of growth hormone circulating? I would assume that something high in fat like an avocado and/or exogenous ketones and coffee would provide me with ketone energy and keep autophagy functioning at a relatively high level. Thanks again for everything and I hope to hear your response soon. Best, Zach.”

Melanie Avalon: Some good muscle building, fasting questions. So, I just finished reading Siim Land’s new book, it's called Stronger By Stress: Adapt to Beneficial Stressors to Improve Your Health and Strengthen the Body. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. But he dives deep into all of this, into resistance training, muscle building as well as how to pair it with fasting and how to best support muscle growth. We've talked about this at length before on the podcast, but a lot of people often say that-- they think two things. They think that you have to eat immediately after working out to build muscle. And then, they often think that you can't “absorb” more than like 30 to 40 grams of protein per meal.

So, to address both of those, because it ties into this, when you do resistance training, which is the best way to build muscle, it creates signaling in the body for mTOR, which is a growth signaling hormone in the muscle. That signal in the muscle stays on for up to 24 hours, probably at least 24 hours-- or around 24 hours. The point of that means that you don't have to immediately eat protein right after doing resistance training on your muscles. You have a window of 24 hours in which to eat your protein.

And then on top of that, I talked about how people often think that you can only eat 30 to 40 grams or absorb 30 to 40 grams. The confusion there is actually because when you eat a meal after 30 to 40 grams of protein, it doesn't stimulate muscle protein synthesis anymore. So, it basically caps out. Once you hit 30 to 40 grams, it's not like you can stimulate more muscle growth in that meal, but you still assimilate the rest of the protein. So, if you eat like 100 grams of protein in a meal, you basically get the benefit of 30 to 40 grams of muscle growth stimulation, but you're still going to use all of that protein. So, that whole idea that you don't use it or don't absorb it is just not correct information.

As to how to pair this with intermittent fasting to get the best gains and Zach touched on this, but while fasting-- while it is a catabolic process, meaning there's muscle breakdown, it is stimulating and upregulating growth hormone and it's making you more anabolic when you actually do eat, so it's actually a great way to build muscle. You don't have to eat prior to resistance training to build muscle, you just don't. You can do intermittent fasting and you can build muscle. An exception, and Siim Land talks about this in his book a little bit, is that maybe if you're doing longer fasts, you could possibly supplement with certain branched-chain amino acids that can be used by the muscle to completely discourage catabolism of the muscle. It's a much more complicated routine and nuance. So, I just will refer you to that book, but I can tell you more the basic protocol.

Basically, you're going to want to assuming you're pairing this with intermittent fasting like both of our listeners are, I would recommend working out in the fasted state, you don't need to fuel beforehand. Obviously, it's great to fuel with coffee because that's going to encourage energy, it's going to encourage fat burning, but you don't need to fuel with calories per se. You can do it fasted. And then, you have a window of 24 hours to eat your meal, which you want to be-- if it's a one meal a day, you want it to be high protein. It probably wants to be high protein either way, if this is your goal. If you want to maximize muscle growth, you might want to have a longer eating window, like a 16:8 type thing, where you split up that protein intake into two separate meals because what that'll do is then your-- I talked about that it caps out after 40.

Let's say that you have 100 grams of protein all in one meal, compared to two meals where you have 50 grams each time, you're going to stimulate muscle growth twice rather than once where it capped out. That doesn't mean you can't do the one meal a day, you can. If this is really a goal of yours and you want to do it faster and do it to the tee, you might want to consider a longer eating window.

Gin Stephens: Well, here's what's interesting to me, his whole question-- that whole question is coming with the idea that for some reason we're going to have more growth hormone with alternate day fasting because he's talking about wanting to do alternate day fasting to have extra growth hormone. And I'm just not sure that growth hormone just goes up, up, up, up, up continually throughout the longer fasts. We know that fasting is associated with higher levels of human growth hormone, not everything always like, if you keep going, it just keeps going up, up, up, you know what I'm saying?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I was actually just about to talk about that.

Gin Stephens: Oh, you were about to say that? Because that's the whole thing that--

Melanie Avalon: I was going to layout the protocol and then address his--

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: We're on the same page.

Gin Stephens: Good because I don't think that alternate daily fasting is what I would recommend just because-- Okay, go ahead.

Melanie Avalon: No, I'm so glad you brought that up.

Gin Stephens: Because I didn't hear you saying anything about that and so, I was like, “Wait, what about that?” Okay.

Melanie Avalon: To Zach's point, if you're wanting to build muscle, I would not do ADF. That's what I was going to say. If muscle building is your goal, longer fasting is not what you're going to want to be doing. That's going to be much more catabolic. It's fine for muscle maintenance and health and longevity like we talk about all the time. But if you want to build muscle, doing that longer fast is going to more substantially break down your muscle. And what Gin said, that's actually a fantastic question. I haven't researched-- because I know I said before that mTOR caps out, I would imagine growth hormone does too.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, exactly. We just assume that if something goes up, then you fast longer, it's going to go up, up, up, up, up, but that's not necessarily an assumption. I wouldn't think that it would.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, actually to read a quote from Siim’s book, he says, “If you're losing muscle and strength, then you should dial down on how much faceting you're doing.” So ADF, no, let’s not.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. ADF is a very strategic protocol for certain things, like if you need your insulin down or if you are plateaued on the eating window approach, or if you think your body's adapting to the eating window and you're not losing weight, you need to shake things up, get that metabolism going. But for muscle building, hmm-mm, that wouldn't be my recommendation.

Melanie Avalon: I want to read what Siim recommends at the end. He says, "Resistance training stimulates mTOR.” Oh, he says actually keeps it elevated for up to 48 hours. But he says that's why you should work out optimally three to four times a week. "The minimum effective dose is two times, but it results in less muscle hypertrophy than working out more frequently. Based on current research, maximum growth can be achieved by working out with 6 to 12 reps per set with 60 to 90 seconds for rest, and total it takes about three to four sets per exercise." So, I would recommend probably going more that route, not the ADF route. Either a one meal a day or a longer eating window daily and then working out three to four times a week with the 6-12 reps per set with 60 to 90 seconds for rest, and making sure that you get adequate protein.

As far as how much protein you need to eat, he says aim for 0.6 to 0.8 grams per pound of lean body mass. So, that is per your muscle, not your overall weight. Per lean body mass on rest days and 0.8 to 1.2 grams on workout days. So, did we answer all of their questions?

Gin Stephens: I think so. I mean she wants to gain muscle. And so, really, just so you know, Melanie, you answered perfectly about protein, protein, protein. If she's eating two meals a day, work out fasted, eat you two meals, you'll be fine. You will gain the muscle, but the gains come from the working out and then you're refeeding during your eating window.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. So, she's working out in the morning, I'm assuming eating one between 12:00 and 6:30.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, she said works out fasted, so perfect.

Melanie Avalon: So she's good. And then yeah, Zach, we would recommend not doing the ADF and doing something similar to what we just discussed. We're on the same page.

Gin Stephens: Perfect.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. All right. The next question comes from Camille. The subject is Hunger During Fasting. And Camille says. “Hi, Gin and Melanie. I've just started listening to your podcast and reading Gin's new book. I've been intermittent fasting for about two years, but not consistently. I recently started again a few weeks ago doing 16:8, eating from noon until 8:00. I've been clean fasting, only having black tea in the mornings and saving my delicious coffee with milk for the afternoon. The problem is I get really hungry when I wake up in the morning and it continues until 12:00. I can't change up the times much because my fiancé gets home late from work and we eat dinner together around 7:00. It's discouraging. It makes me want to go back to eating breakfast, even though I've lost a little weight in the past few weeks. How can I stop being so hungry in the morning? Am I doing something wrong? Thanks.”

Gin Stephens: All right, Camille, first of all, you're new back to it. It sounds like you may have just started fasting clean. I'm going to make a suggestion to maybe not have the tea. Maybe tea is not working well for you. You’re having black tea in the mornings and having coffee with milk later in the afternoon. I wonder if black coffee-- I know you don't seem to love the coffee because you described coffee with milk is delicious. I'm inferring from that that you do not love black coffee, but I would like you to consider having the black coffee instead.

Also, with the black tea, I'm curious as to whether you're brewing it yourself or drinking a bottled tea product because a lot of bottled products have added mystery ingredients that do break a fast. Citric acid is one we avoid because it adds a tangy flavor. Maybe you're brewing your own black tea and that's not an issue for you. But tea is one of those things. For me, tea makes me queasy on an empty stomach. I don't do well with tea at all. Actually, I don't like tea. But maybe try coffee instead and see if that helps. And realize that you are still in early days.

Also, I know this sounds crazy, but you may not be quite getting to fat burning ever and so, you're never just quite there. With an eight-hour window eating from noon to 8:00, you may never be depleting your glycogen sufficiently, you may never be quite getting into that fat burning, and so that's why you're kind of white knuckling it every day.

So, if you could give yourself just a few days with some shorter windows just to see-- you don't necessarily have to have a shorter window every single day of your life, but to try to get through that, get past that difficult phase. You may be just trapped in the adjustment phase. You said you started a few weeks ago, but because you have that long eating window, that can make the adjustment phase take longer. So, that may be why you're struggling. Think about the 28-Day FAST Start. Think about how to maximize the time that you're in the fat-burning state.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to suggest the same things. I was going to suggest maybe doing a smaller eating window, maybe changing the coffee to black and making it earlier.

Gin Stephens: As I do different things day to day, if I have a really long window one day or have extra sugar or drink extra alcohol, it can really make the fast harder the next day. And I can really feel the moment my body switches over to fat burning and then it gets better. I've been doing it long enough to be in tune with my body. And I know that if you're stuck in that period where you're never quite getting there, you're just always having the hard part.

Melanie Avalon: I also thought of a super random hack today actually.

Gin Stephens: What is that?

Melanie Avalon: It's not really directly her question, but you know how some people miss munching on things? It's not so much like a hunger. It's more they just--

Gin Stephens: Mouth action.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, we talked before about the Komuso Shift’s necklace.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: This came to me today. I got so excited. So, we talked about it before it's-- well, tangents. I've been prepping for Wim Hof. James Nestor who wrote a book called Breath. I've pretty much decided that breathing is going to change my life. But in any case, we talked before about this necklace called Komuso Shift and it's a necklace that's really pretty, but it helps you breathe slowly. So, you inhale through your nose and you breathe out through the necklace and it forces that really, really long exhale. It helps deal with stress and switch you to the parasympathetic nervous system state. I've actually been using it a ton now because I was reading-- and I promise this relates to what I was talking about. Sorry for the tangent. I was reading in James Nestor’s book, apparently a really, really long exhale is really, really key to-- it's interesting. It's a theory I was unaware of that actually we need more carbon dioxide, like we're breathing almost too much and too shortly and too quickly, and we're not getting that longer exhale, which lets out the oxygen and lets carbon dioxide do its work in ourselves. So, this necklace actually supports that.

But the point is, today in my Facebook group, somebody posted about how they were going to get it because they were trying to break their vaping habit and they said they wanted to get it to do that instead. And then I was like, “Oh my goodness,” people who have the munchie, hunger-type cravings, they could get this. And instead they could do that, do the breathing through it and calm themselves down.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think that's a great idea.

Melanie Avalon: The discount code for listeners is-- I’ll put a link in the show notes, but it's komuso.com. And our coupon is actually 20% off, which is awesome. So, it's komusodesign.com, with the coupon IFPODCAST, that will get you 20% off. I use mine all the time now, especially since reading James. Have you read that, Gin? Are you familiar with it, his book, Breath?

Gin Stephens: I have not. I've seen it around Amazon, but I haven't read it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so obsessed now with Breath. I'm like, “Oh, I haven't been breathing.” Everybody breathe-- I just want to go out to random people on the street and be like, “Are you breathing?”

Gin Stephens: You should do that. That would be fun. And then, let us know what happens.

Melanie Avalon: I will let you know how it goes. Oh my goodness.

Gin Stephens: And also have a Joovv with you and shine it on them.

Melanie Avalon: And then, I'll find my perfect match like that guy at the grocery store wearing the BLUblox.

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Margot. And the subject is IF and Elevated Blood Glucose Levels. “Hello Gin and Melanie, I love the podcast and have learned so much from both of you. I am 42 years old and have been doing IF for over two years now. I mainly have a window of about 24-ish. Two days a week, I throw in a 36- to 42-hour fast. The longer fasts are not hard for me. I actually have to force myself to eat so I can have a family dinner with my son. I am just not hungry a lot of the time. I started IF to tighten up and lose about five pounds. I was never overweight but was looking to maintain and tone up after the birth of my son four years ago. After I started researching the health benefits of IF, I have stuck with it mainly for the purposes of autophagy and healing. I always clean fast and do HIIT workouts or vigorous walking in the fasted state.

This is why I was a little thrown when I went to have bloodwork done last week and found that my fasting glucose was 106. I was shocked. I had been fasting for 16 hours when the test was done. I normally eat very clean in my window, mainly paleo, but allow for some flexibility on weekends. This number makes me very nervous. Going back through old bloodwork, I do see that my fasting glucose levels typically are in the 90s. I thought that with IF, they were supposed to drop due to insulin sensitivity."

"Then, I started thinking. I remember an episode where Gin was talking about black coffee actually raising glucose levels in the fasted state, not due to high blood sugar, but because it helps the liver clear out glycogen more efficiently. I did have a cup of black coffee the morning of my blood draw." At this point, this is just me, I'd like to go ding, ding, ding. All right, now I'm going to keep reading. " I am very nervous. I have messaged my doctor and asked for a retest but also asked to have my hemoglobin A1c levels tested. In the meantime, I also remember Gin talking about having bloodwork done to test her fasting insulin levels, not glucose. Can you please provide that information? I would love to have that test as well even though it is not mainstream. I should also add that I did faint during the blood test. I never do well with blood draws, and I wonder if that's why my level spiked as well. I would be curious to hear your thoughts on all of this. Be well and stay safe. Margot.”

Melanie Avalon: I did not plan this. It's so perfect, though, because we talked about the-- Okay. Yes. So, this is actually very common, people on low carb diets or fasting finding out they have higher blood sugar levels and there are multiple potential reasons for that. To mention the coffee and helping the liver clear out glycogen or coffee can spike cortisol and have that response to the liver release glycogen or actually produces glucose. So, the blood sugar in your bloodstream can come from three potential places. It can come from the food you just ate if you're in the fed state. It can come from liver glycogen and muscle glycogen. So, carbs released basically from your liver. Probably doesn't come from a muscle, it probably just comes from the liver now that I think about it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't think it would come from the muscle because your muscle isn't releasing glycogen into your blood. The muscle glycogen is there to be a source of energy for that muscle.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so it'd be coming from the liver. Or if the liver does not have glycogen, the liver can produce glycogen from protein and a process called gluconeogenesis. And actually, little fun fact that I didn't realize, and it blew my mind. Did you know, Gin, that in type 2 diabetes, the majority of the blood sugar and their elevated blood sugar levels is not from the diet. It's from gluconeogenesis, did you know that?

Gin Stephens: Well, I did not know that. No.

Melanie Avalon: Blew my mind. Metformin, which is often prescribed for diabetes and blood sugar levels and things like that, there's theories about its mechanism of action, but it's quite likely that it's because it stops the liver from the gluconeogenesis process.

Gin Stephens: That's very interesting.

Melanie Avalon: It was such a radical shift for me because this whole time I thought it was the carbs you're eating.

Gin Stephens: Well, even that's what Fung says. Fung says stop putting them in.

Melanie Avalon: Stop putting in, what?

Gin Stephens: The carbs, stop putting them in, when he's talking about what to do. Stop putting them in.

Melanie Avalon: Like in your diet?

Gin Stephens: Stop eating them. Yeah, that's when he's suggesting that you go more low-carb approach.

Melanie Avalon: But, yeah, it's most likely more just a complete dysregulation of the metabolic system of the body to adequately use-- it's not able to tap into fat for fuel, and then it's not able to adequately use blood sugar, so cells aren't using blood sugar. So, they might be calling for the liver to produce more blood sugar because they're not receiving it. So, then it's just building up in the blood. It's really, really fascinating.

Gin Stephens: Everything is just bad. It's crazy. Everything is just out of whack.

Melanie Avalon: And my current theory is that this is possibly all from refined seed oils. Not all from it, but I think that might be one of the largest contributing factors. I just always want to throw that out there because I'm really passionate about it, and I keep hearing about it more and more. But in any case, so to her question, yes, it happens. We see it a lot. It could have been the coffee, it could have been that when you go in the fasted state, your liver is releasing or producing glucose. If people aren't scared to pricking themselves, it's really not hard to take your own blood sugar, you don't have to go--

Gin Stephens: Well, she faints. I don't think Margot is going to be good at that. Yeah, sorry, Margot. Melanie is not about to suggest that you give yourself blood tests. No. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: This is not for you, Margot. But for anybody else since I'm already saying it, you don't have to like go to the doctor has your blood sugar, you can get a glucose monitor. And once you do it once-- I swear it's not that hard. I'll put a link in the show notes to the ones that I have, but if you have a fainting problem, which speaking of, do you know, Gin, why we faint?

Gin Stephens: No. Is it lack of oxygen to the brain somehow?

Melanie Avalon: It's from the vagus nerve actually. I actually don't know a lot of details beyond that. But I know that basically it's a response from the vagus nerve and it causes you to faint. And I'm bringing that up because I actually recently did an episode on the vagus nerve, which blew my mind. I will put link to it in the show notes. But as far as the levels spiking from the fainting, I don't know about that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I wouldn't know about that either.

Melanie Avalon: But what I would suggest is, yes, retest, maybe do it without the coffee.

Gin Stephens: With no coffee. 100%, I would not do a fasted blood draw with coffee. I would not. Don't have anything before the test. I would have it again.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and then testing your hemoglobin A1c will also be pretty telling. For listeners not familiar, it shows the long-term effects of glycation on your red blood cells because when blood sugar is elevated for a long time, it glycates your red blood cells and so the hemoglobin A1c-- it's going to tell you, if your blood sugars are consistently elevated over time rather than in that literal moment. I started a Facebook group for people who have the Lumen and Biosense breath analyzer devices to measure ketones, carbs, and fat burning. People so often keep getting more and more surprised that it seems that they switch to this carb burning state even when they're fasted. It just keeps happening so much. I think it's because a lot of people in the fasting state, their body, it responds by producing blood sugar rather than tapping more into fat. So, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Oh, and I did want to answer Margot’s question. Get your fasting insulin. It's not special information. You want a fasting insulin level test. That's what you want because she said, “Could you please provide that information?” That's it, just ask for that. You want your insulin levels.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to say, I wonder if that'll ever become a standard test. Probably not.

Gin Stephens: It's just so interesting that it's not and that people have to fight for it. It tells you so much. I just keep thinking to this poor girl that was having all this struggle and no wonder she wasn't losing any weight because her insulin was through the roof.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, we should change that.

Gin Stephens: We absolutely should. That is more important. She thought she was fine because our blood glucose levels and her A1c was fine. Her body was great at clearing out excess blood sugar. Well, of course, she had really high levels of insulin. So, it kept cranking out more and more and more. Eventually, it's going to turn into full-blown insulin resistance.

Melanie Avalon: Think about that. Say you're fasting, have high insulin, the insulin is trying to lower your blood sugar. Then your liver, like everything we're talking about might be like, “Oh, low blood sugar, let's produce more sugar.” So, it's like this spiral.

Gin Stephens: And you're not well-fueled because you can't tap into your fat stores and I could see that as a scenario where your metabolic rate could go down over time, because you're not well fueled because that's the key when your body is not well-fueled, your body cranks down your metabolism. So, you're trapped in this cycle of not accessing your fat stores. I mean you're not eating, so it's like there's no fuel and you probably would feel terrible.

Melanie Avalon: I talked about it before, but I really had a mind-blown moment reading Fatburn Fix, that I'm still reading but how she talks about how both the pancreas and the brain can send signals to the liver to release blood sugar. So, basically, there can just be so many signals going on in our body, poor body, it's just trying to give you energy.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Your body is trying to help you at all times. Never forget that. Your body wants you to survive.

Melanie Avalon: It's on your side.

Gin Stephens: Yep. It wants you to survive, thrive, and reproduce.

Melanie Avalon: It does. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, for listeners, if you would like to submit your own questions to the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. You can also follow us on Instagram, we're @ifpodcast. You can follow me, I'm @melanieavalon. And you can follow Gin, she's @ginstephens. And yeah, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, Gin's Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle, Feast Without Fear: Food and the Delay, Don't Deny Lifestyle and/or Gin's Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Clean Fast Protocol for Health, Longevity, and Weight Loss--Including the 21-Day FAST Start Guide

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Intermittent Fasting Stories

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com  

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Aug 30

Episode 176: Ketone Measuring Tools, Proper Refeeding After Longer Fasts, Fasting Apps, Best Toothpaste Options And More!

Intermittent Fasting

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 176 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

 JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!!  Use The Link joovv.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST For A Free Gift!

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 PREP DISH: Prep Dish is an awesome meal planning service which sends you weekly grocery and recipe lists, so you can do all your meal preparation at once, and be good to go for the week! It's perfect for the IF lifestyle! And better yet, the meals are all gluten free or Paleo, which is fantastic if you're already doing so, but also a wonderful way to "try out" gluten free or Paleo with delicious meals, and no feelings of restriction!! We can't recommend them enough!​ Get A Free 2 week trial At prepdish.com/ifpodcast!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:05 - JOOVV RED LIGHT THERAPY DEVICES:  Use The Link Joovv.com/IFPodcast With The Code IFPODCAST For A Free Gift!

2:45 - BEAUTY COUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

Trey Suntrup (Biosense): Measuring Ketosis, Ketone Types, Fat Burning, The “Nebulous” State, Intermittent Fasting, Breath Vs. Blood, Keto Adaptation, MCTs, Exercise, Glycogen, And More!

IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life

15:20 - Listener Feedback: Trina - New

16:50 - Listener Q&A: Judi - What fasting app do you recommend?

Undated Deluxe Law of Attraction 12-Month Weekly Planner

28:50 - THERAGUN: Handheld Percussive Therapy Device That Releases Your Deepest Muscle Tension - Get Your Theragun Risk Free For 30 Days At Theragun.com/IFPODCAST

31:20 - Listener Q&A: Jen - Modified ADF “Up Day” number of meals vs overall nutritional content

Intermittent fasting, a possible priming tool for host defense against SARS-CoV-2 infection: Crosstalk among calorie restriction, autophagy and immune response

Siim Land: Autophagy, Metabolism, Protein Intakes, What Breaks A Fast, Anabolism And Catabolism, MTOR, Ketogenic Diets, Exercise, NMN, And More!

50:25 - PREP DISH: Free Subscription! Get a free 2 week trial At Prepdish.com/ifpodcast! You'll get weekly gluten-free and Paleo grocery and recipe lists!!

52:05 - Listener Q&A: Lauren - Another toothpaste question

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 176 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Hi friends. As you guys know, we always say that when you eat is just as important as what you eat to fulfill your best wellness lifestyle. Guess what? The same thing goes for natural light. With our modern indoor lifestyles, it can be hard to get enough natural light from the sun but getting a good amount of healthy light is important for your health. That's why we use and adore Joovv Red Light Therapy products. They shine wavelengths of red and near-infrared light right in the comfort of your own home.

You've heard us talk about Joovv before. They're our preferred brand because with their modular design, you can actually treat your entire body in the light. That helps support healthier cells for more energy, less inflammation, and better healing and recovery. I've personally been using my Joovv Mini at home for years now. I literally turn it on every single day. It's essential for keeping my daily routine on track and feeling my best.

I use the red light in the morning in the evening to really set my circadian rhythm and mood, and I use near-infrared during the day for targeted treatments. Joovv is by far the highest quality light therapy brand out there, and the customer service and the people are exceptional.

A lot of people's favorite reasons for using Joovv is for enhanced muscle recovery and targeted fat burning, enhance skin, but I think honestly my favorite is just the incredible effect it has on my mood. Joovv is literally a part of my daily life and I can't imagine my life without it. And now, qualifying customers can take advantage of special finance offers including 0% APR for up to 12 months. You can get your own device at joovv.com/ifpodcast and using that link with the code IFPODCAST will get you a free gift with your purchase.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that what you put on your skin gets direct access to your bloodstream and in your body can do a lot of detrimental things? So, while you may be fasting clean, you may at the same time be infusing your body with endocrine disrupters, which can mess with your hormones, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight and even carcinogens. In Europe, they've banned thousands of these compounds found and conventional skincare and makeup, and the US has banned less than 10. In fact, most conventional lipstick for example is high in lead. And the half-life of lead in the body can be up to 30 years. That means every time you put on some lipstick, you might be putting some lead into your bones, which might not leave for three decades. This is a big deal. Thankfully, there's an easy all-encompassing answer.

There's a company called Beauty Counter, and they were founded on a mission to make skincare and makeup products that are safe for your skin. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to not burden your body and support your skin health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd like to learn more about safe beauty and also get a ton of have amazing discounts and free things from me, definitely get on my Clean Beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. Not sure which Beauty Counter products to try? I also just made a whole series of online quizzes to match you to your perfect product. Those are at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. So, here's the fasting clean inside and out. All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode #176 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, if I sound tired, it's because I've just been on hold for an hour and a half with a company trying to get a product returned. So, I'm tired. Thank goodness for intermittent fasting or I would have needed like a couple meals and snacks in there.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know. That's when you really know.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: When things like that do happen, and you're doing fasting, it's like the complete opposite. You're focused and-- I don't know, it's very helpful.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's true. Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Is it resolved?

Gin Stephens: Well, no, but they're going to get to the bottom of it and send me an email. I'm like, “Okay, we'll see.”

Melanie Avalon: Our modern world of online delivery.

Gin Stephens: Here's the only thing I would like to say, I'm not going to mention any companies. But if you're ever shopping on one company, and this is not Amazon, it's a different one. So, not Amazon. If you're ever shopping on one company and it is their platform, but it is coming from another company but through their platform, do not do it. Go straight to the second company, do not order it through the other person. Because if you have a problem, neither company will-- They're like, “Oh, sorry, you need to talk to them. You need talk to them.” They're like, “Oops, that's them.” They're like, “Oops," Anyway, I got switched back and forth a whole bunch of times.

Melanie Avalon: It's actually like on Amazon ordering directly--

Gin Stephens: From a third-party seller?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: The good thing though is Amazon is really good about handling it.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I was going to say. They'll take care of you if the other company refuses to deal with it.

Gin Stephens: Yes, but this has just been very frustrating. So, the company that it's going to come from is who I would suggest you start with. Learned a very important lesson. I mean it's taken forever, so it's going to be fine. It's still this one bathroom. All this goes back to that one bathroom that we've been remodeling since January.

Melanie Avalon: Is this a guest bathroom?

Gin Stephens: It's a guest bathroom. Thank goodness. Although, funny story, the master bathroom is also unusable. So, we live in a four-bathroom house. And right now, we're showering in the other guest bathroom on the other side of the main floor because the people that lived in our house bought very fancy fixtures all the time. They didn't go to Home Depot and Lowe's and buy, I don't know, Delta faucets. They got super fancy faucets that you get through a designer that cost a bazillion dollars. But also, did you know that faucets and fixtures are not interchangeable. If our faucet was leaking in our master shower, you can't just swap it out. You have to get the same exact brand inside the wall because they have separate fixture attachments. I don't think I'm explaining it right. But yes.

Melanie Avalon: That makes sense. That's upsetting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, all the plumbers that have been coming, they're like, “We don't even know what brand this is," but you're going to have to dig it out and start over with. So, we can't shower in our master bathroom either because it's all disconnected. They're going to have to cut the tile, cut out the connection, and they're going to have to redo that. And then, they put this plate over it. So, hods, the cut they had to make. So, we're 50% in the bathroom department at the Stephens house, but thank goodness, we have extras, so it's really not a big deal. I'm getting exercise walking to the other side of the house for all my showers.

Melanie Avalon: That's true.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Anyway, eventually, actually, you're never finished in a house. I was going to say eventually we'll be done, but we won't. There'll be another project and another and another. That's just houses.

Melanie Avalon: I feel it's also 2020, a lot of people doing home projects and things like that.

Gin Stephens: It's really true. We had an architect come and draw up a screen porch edition and we've got a builder lined up. We have actually got two that are going to submit bids to us. And it's been two weeks, and we haven't even heard back from either of them. I think people are doing a lot of home remodeling right now because they're like, “If I'm going to be home, it's going to have to be amazing.” It'll all be done, so we're in good shape. I'm not complaining.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, all of my projects have been just going through all the stuff for my life. When quarantine-type stuff started, I was like, “Oh, in a month, I'll have gone through everything.” And still, here we are, I'm still doing it. So, it feels good, though.

Gin Stephens: What do you mean?

Melanie Avalon: I have so much memories, like photos and papers that I wanted to go through and throw out and make into scrapbooks, and then stuff from childhood. Just go through everything and try to cleanse my life. My habit now that I do every night that feels so good is, I only take about 15 minutes but I sit down, I turn on my Netflix, I watch something and I scrapbook, and I turn off all social media. And it feels so good. Feels really good. I recommend scrapbooking. You don't like scrapbooking though.

Gin Stephens: No.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: I don't. I do recommend putting aside social media, it's harder for me with coordinating the large groups. Because even though I have fabulous moderators, they're amazing, sometimes they have questions for me. I do sleep, so they figure it out. They're awesome. But if I'm awake, I'm not too far from social media just because I feel I should be accessible to them.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, that's the way I am pretty much 24/7 with the exception of, I was like, “I'm just going to take this time and I'm just not, and I'm going to scrapbook.” Actually, really the reason I like scrapbooking is a lot of people are like, “Oh, you should color,” or “You should do something.” But I always feel I need to be productive or creating something. So, I can't just watch the TV. I have to make something. I feel like I was productive.

Gin Stephens: See, I can. I can just watch TV. But I put my phone to the side. Every night, Chad and I watch TV together. We watch one episode of something and whatever series we're working our way through. I put the phone down, although Messenger still pops up if I need to chat with the moderators, but I don't moderate the groups unless there's like an emergency. A Facebook emergency, but other than that, yeah, I do put it aside. I can just sit and watch television.

Melanie Avalon: I wish I could. It's a goal.

Gin Stephens: Well, I can't listen to things on audio. So, we're all different, and I think that's okay. I have no goal to change.

Melanie Avalon: Well, with audio, I do other things during it. That's my problem, is I need to be-- I'm like addicted to multitasking.

Gin Stephens: See, I prefer to focus on one thing. I think that just explained a lot right there. I don't like multitasking.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I love it.

Gin Stephens: Whatever I'm doing, I am engaged in that.

Melanie Avalon: The only time I'm not multitasking is probably when I'm doing these shows, honestly. Yeah, doing these episodes is a relief because I don't multitask during it and I just take a moment.

Gin Stephens: Well, maybe if you realize the multitasking is stressing you out, you could try to focus on one thing at a time.

Melanie Avalon: It's the complete opposite.

Gin Stephens: It sounded like you were saying it was a relief to not be multitasking.

Melanie Avalon: Well, yes and no. I love multitasking, and it makes me feel good. Then, I feel I shouldn't be. So then, I won't, but then I want to. So, the best for me is just except that I like multitasking, but then also take these moments where I'm not multitasking to balance it out, like this show, for example. So, yeah. Can I share a really quick PSA?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, as you guys know, Gin and I are not fans of measuring things like ketones to evaluate your state of ketosis, especially urinary ketone strips, because we'd rather you focus on the practical implementation of the fast and not whether or not your ketones are a certain level. That's been the messaging since day one, and I still stand by that. That said, for those people who are interested in doing a really deep dive into measuring their state of ketosis because that actually at the same time is also a really big passion of mine. I think it's actually very incredible and valid, if you are the type, that's your goal. It's not about the fasting. It's not about the lifestyle. It's because you're trying to literally hack something in your life with a ketogenic diet, whether it's like a health condition or something specific like that.

The reason I'm saying all of this is I recently had Trey Suntrup from a company called Biosense. They make the ketone breath analyzer, which their studies show, it's pretty comparable to what you can learn from a blood analyzer, like pricking your finger, with some exceptions. You'd have to listen to episode for the whole nuance. The reason I'm saying all this is, I'm actually really big fan of that, I have a Biosense device. And I realized after releasing that episode that a lot of people thought that I personally think you should never measure ketones, which is not at all what I personally think. So, this is just a really brief PSA that if that is of interest to you, I support it. Melanie does. Come into my community, my separate community from this show for that, so I'll put a link in the show notes to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast episode where I talked about it, and also my Facebook group which is IF Biohackers. So, if that's of interest to you, definitely join me there. I just wanted to share that really quick PSA.

For normal people, not normal people, but if you're not the crazy biohacking, wanting to measure the ketones, like that whole thing, just keep on keeping on. Don't stress about ketones please. And please, please, don't get urinary ketones ships because we could talk for an hour about why those are very misleading. For people who are new to the show, new to this whole world, basically, when you first start entering into ketosis through intermittent fasting or a ketogenic diet or something like that, at the beginning, your body starts creating a lot of ketones. And there's actually three types of ketones, which is what I learned in that episode, you've got to listen to it. Your body starts creating a lot of them and in the initial beginning, it's not quite adept at using them because it's just not, and a lot of them get excreted through the urine.

So, at the beginning, people will often see something on their urinary test strips if they're using those, but as you continue into ketosis, it all changes. Like I said, there's actually three types of ketones, BHB, acetoacetate, and acetone. And all of that gets nuanced and changes around the more you get ketogenic and your body gets adapted to fasting. So, things are basically really complicated and it's very helpful to have a very comprehensive understanding if it's something that you do want to explore, which is again, why I wanted to have that episode on my other show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, any comments on that, Gin?

Gin Stephens: No. I think that was great. And thank you for clearing all that up.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. All right. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, to start things off, we have some feedback. This feedback comes from Trina, the subject is “New.” Was that the entire subject, do you think? I don't know. She says, “Hi, Gin. I'm just becoming interested in IF since entering early menopause and having difficulty losing weight. I'll admit hearing Gin reference her previous weight at 210 on episode nine,” that was episode nine of our show? Wow. Long time ago.

Gin Stephens: I've probably said it on lots of episodes.

Melanie Avalon: “Was very revealing, but more so that transparency encouraged me. I'm currently 48 years old and I'm 209,” so very similar to Gin what your weight was, “at a very low point. I'm starting with your earlier podcasts, so I'm aways from your current podcast. Just know that I'll be stalking you guys to get caught up. Just wanted to say hi, and thanks.” I wonder when she'll get caught up to this episode. But, yeah, I thought that was a nice little thing to share.

Gin Stephens: Thank you, Trina. And you're right. Yeah, I was 210. And it's really hard to believe that was me, even to me, because it's been so long ago. That was 2014, so it's been over six years since I was at that weight. You can do it, Trina. Be patient with your body if you're entering early menopause because that's not a season of our lives known for easy weight loss. Just be prepared that while you're going through the hormonal shifts of menopause, it might take some time to see the weight loss that you're looking for.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, I think that's great.

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Judy. Judy says, “Hello. What fasting app do you recommend? And I had been doing intermittent fasting for several weeks. I felt better, lost a few pounds, and then sort of fell off the wagon. And I'm finding it hard to get back on. How do you suggest getting restarted when you break the cycle of intermittent fasting? Thanks.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, two great questions. So, fasting apps, do you recommend a go-to one or do you not? I remember you talked about it in your book, but you didn't mention one, right?

Gin Stephens: I did have a go-to app, but now I don’t. My go-to app was the one that my son Cal made, he made it for me. It was Window Intermittent Fasting Tracker. He made it for me back in 2016. At that time, 2016, there are like two apps out there. And one of them you could preset for 16:8 or 24, and that was it. And they also had maybe a couple of apps that let you track your fast, but I was wanting to track my eating window. So, I was like, "I need you to make me an app. I want to track my window." And so, it was called “Window,” not surprisingly. And over time, he made it better and better and better. It was fabulous.

And then a year ago, he was graduating from Georgia Tech and getting ready to start a full-time job at Airbnb, which is where he is working now. And he was also about to set out on this amazing cruise with his now-wife, and he was going to be proposing and he was really just kind of done with having to monitor an app all the time. He provided fabulous customer support, by the way, but he sold the app. Long story short, sold it to another company, and they have since changed the app a lot. And also, they have a new pricing structure. So, people who used it for a long, long time, found that it was really different.

I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for the Window app, but we're no longer affiliated with it. And so, I hate to recommend it just because some of the changes they made, it's very clear were made by people who don't understand intermittent fasting. Does that make sense? Some of the wording like, “Choose your intermittent fasting diet,” kind of wording. It no longer fits with my mindset towards fasting, if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: I was actually really, really curious if that was the case or if that had happened. So, it's really interesting.

Gin Stephens: They changed it. Interestingly, they didn't offer to stay connected to me, because if they had, I would have been willing to give them lots of great advice and also promoting it in the communities. But they did not, which is fine. They bought the app, they can do what they want with it. But some of the changes were not changes that were well received by the people who had been using it for years. That's all I'm going to say.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, actually, we've had quite a few apps approach us about partnering with the show and there's not really like one app, I think, that we endorse. And oftentimes, it's actually ties back into what I was saying at the beginning about measuring ketones and things like that, especially with ketones people will think, “Oh, this measure means this,” or, “This means this.” Some of the apps will say like, “Oh, at this time, you're entering autophagy,” and it's like, how do they know that?

Gin Stephens: They've added that to the Window app as well.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?

Gin Stephens: I think so. I hear from people. I still have the original version because I have mine set to not update. So, if I ever wanted to use it again, I could still use the old version. And I'm not anti the Window app. So, nobody think that I am, I will always have a very soft spot for it. But sometimes people think I'm still affiliated with it because I talked about it in Delay, Don't Deny. And I want to make it clear that I'm not, that's all I'm saying.

Melanie Avalon: This is like the episode of making things clear. [laughs] Making it clear where we stand on things. Oh, my goodness, that's really funny. The only app I've actually used, and I haven't used it extensively, and I don't know if they've made updates and I don't know your thoughts, Gin, but I have used Zero before.

Gin Stephens: I say I haven't used any of the others. That's the thing. I've never used them. I had no need to. And even right now, I have no need to because if I wanted to use an app, I would just use my version of Window the original that. It's not the original, he updated it, so it's the version that it was when he handed it over. That's what I still have.

Melanie Avalon: I'm impressed that you've been able to maintain not updating it. I feel like the iPhone is really good at sneaking in.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I have that turned off, the automatic updates.

Melanie Avalon: I do too. I don't know, but I feel they find ways.

Gin Stephens: They're not updating that. If they ever did, well, okay, but it would be lost to me, but I hope they don't because I feel like almost like I'm the mother of that app, too.

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's so interesting.

Gin Stephens: And now it's grown up and doing its own thing, so I can no longer control it. It's doing its own. Living its own life. There's a nice analogy for you.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. Well, so we're not that much help there. But now our thoughts on fasting apps.

Gin Stephens: Well, the second part of her question.

Melanie Avalon: Her second part about getting back on the wagon. I guess we should first address, is she falling off the wagon? I think you talked about that in your book, didn't you, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I do. I have a whole chapter. “There is no wagon.

Melanie Avalon: And why is there no wagon?

Gin Stephens: Well, because intermittent fasting is a lifestyle, and I want you to commit to-- Judy and anyone listening, I want you to commit to, “Hey, I live in intermittent fasting lifestyle.” And so, here's what happens when you're in the cycle of wagons and on and off the wagon. You get off the wagon, and you're like, “Well, I quit. I'm not doing that.” And then, you get in this cycle of, I'm not doing it, but then you are doing it, but then I'm not doing it. Instead, think of, you are an intermittent faster and some days you'll have shorter fasts. And some days, you'll have longer fasts. If you have some days where you only fast for 12 hours because you get up and eat breakfast at 8:00 AM and then you stop eating by 8:00 PM, and you had a 12-hour eating period that day, you still had a 12-hour fast. So, if you just think of it like that and it breaks the cycle of off and on, that can really just help you free up the mental space to like, “Okay, I didn’t quit. I'm not off the wagon. I didn't fall off. I just had some longer eating windows, some shorter fasts, and I'm ready to tighten up that eating window.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's so important, so key. Honestly, my suggestion is just jump back in like the way you would at the beginning.

Gin Stephens: People who had been doing intermittent fasting very sporadically, and they weren't really doing it and then maybe the whole quarantine derailed people completely, and they just completely stopped from the stress. And so, a lot of people who had been experienced intermittent fasters and then quit, found that doing the 28-Day FAST Start from Fast. Feast. Repeat., helped them get their mind back in the game. Because the key is, you've got to get your mind back in the game and your body has to get back in the game. If you've been off intermittent fasting for a long time, it sounds easy to say just start back but your body's going to have to be retrained. Start fresh if you need to, but once you make that mental shift, I am doing an intermittent fasting lifestyle, then you never have to tell yourself I've fallen off the wagon ever again. You're just, “Well, today, I had a shorter fast and that's okay.”

Melanie Avalon: I do have an idea that I think some people like to do, I like to do this, but I've also read that you shouldn't do this. So, I'm actually really curious to hear your thoughts on it. But that's for with any new “habit,” although not that intermittent fasting is a habit. Like we just said, it's a lifestyle and you're not on or off. But with something like that, I love having my calendar, and I really love Lisa Frank.

I have these big sticker books of Lisa Frank stickers. And I love putting them each day on the calendar if I'm trying some new habit or if it was a dietary approach, or maybe it's a new window, every day. It's the Streaks idea, like the Streaks app that a lot of people have. I find it really motivating and encouraging and I think it shows me patterns really well in my life. But I've also read that you shouldn't do that because then it can make people nervous that they're going to break their streak. But I personally find it really helpful. Do you have thoughts on stuff like that, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, when you think about that, the 28-Day FAST Start is a similar idea. I'm encouraging people to give yourself 28 days to let your body adjust and every day you're doing it. So, I completely agree with the mindset of getting into a habit, then you just keep doing it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And I think it can be hard to remember-- well, not hard to remember, but when you see it, especially in your bright, spark Lisa Frank stickers, especially if you've been doing it a few days, you can look and automatically see, “Wow, it feels good. Oh, look at me.”

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I'm a schoolteacher. Those kind of things are right up my alley. I could make you a sticker chart at any moment. I could break one out. [laughs] Do not question sticker charts to an elementary teacher. Ah-ha. I'll make you a sticker chart.

Melanie Avalon: It's also really great if you find the perfect calendar which, friends, I have found the perfect calendar. I now order it every single year. I'll put link to it in the show notes. I forget the brand, but it's pretty much like-- it's some artists but every month is an animal. I'm a sucker for colors and glitter as you might imagine with the Lisa Frank reference, but it's just the most beautiful, motivating, inspiring colors ever. So, if you get that calendar and get some Lisa Frank stickers, it's a very motivational thing for your kitchen.

Gin Stephens: And does anyone know my thoughts about glitter?

Melanie Avalon: I'm guessing Gin does not like glitter.

Gin Stephens: I don't like glitter.

Melanie Avalon: You don't like glitter?

Gin Stephens: Oh my God. Glitter is like from Satan.

Melanie Avalon: Ask me what is my favorite thing?

Gin Stephens: Is it glitter?

Melanie Avalon: I love glitter.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I was a gifted teacher and I let the children do anything in the entire world that did not break the law. If it was not against the law or the school rules, they could literally do anything they wanted in my classroom creatively, except for one thing.

Melanie Avalon: No glitter.

Gin Stephens: No glitter. A new kid, I remember one day, she's like, “Do you have any glitter?” And the other kids were like, “She does not. She does not have glitter.” [laughs] I'm like, “I got anything else you want. I got everything up in my tubs up on the cabinets." I had anything, you name it, I could pull it out. But there was no glitter.

Melanie Avalon: Can I share one of my favorite memories? Which would have been probably one of your worst memories?

Gin Stephens: Did it involve getting glitter everywhere? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: In college, I went with my two best girlfriends to a Kesha concert, who we know-- Kesha is a big glitter fan. You can tell this was before my Beauty Counter days. I think we took hairspray. I think it was hairspray. It was. Oh, my goodness, Gin, I have changed so much. We took hairspray and we sprayed our entire bodies with hairspray and then we took glitter and we just threw it on our body so that we were just like walking glitter.

Gin Stephens: Oh my God, I would not even allow you into my house. I would have to hose you down in the neighbor's yard. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh. I'm going to send you a picture from my scrapbook.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, make a scrapbook page of that one. That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: I do have a scrapbook page of that one, so I will send to you.

Gin Stephens: Sharpies. Those are my things. I had so many Sharpies, you wouldn’t believe it. Sharpies and markers and paper.

Melanie Avalon: Did you have those scented markers?

Gin Stephens: Mr. Sketch?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: That's the brand. Yep. Mr. Sketch.

Melanie Avalon: Do they still make those?

Gin Stephens: They do still make Mr. Sketch. I didn't like them though. I liked them when I was a kid. But as a grownup, I didn't, because I realized I didn't like fake smelly things.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. Now, I would not. They would not be allowed in the apartment, but in childhood--

Gin Stephens: And all the children over there huffing the markers. Yeah, no, we didn't do that. I did not have those in my classroom. But I did that as a child.

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So, our next question comes from, Jen. It's a long one, are you ready? So, the subject is, “Modified ADF Update Number of Meals Versus Overall Nutritional Content.” Okay, this was long, but I think it has a really good question in it.

So, Jen says, “Hi, ladies, I recently discovered your great podcast and I binge-listened to all the episodes to catch up on everyone to see if my question has been answered before writing in, but I don't think it has, at least not quite for my specific question. Regarding alternate day fasting, I'm wondering if it's the number and/or timing of the meals on the up days that matters most or is it the overall nutritional intake? With one large meal that is roughly equivalent in terms of nutritional content to two smaller meals spread over a longer eating window be equally protective of metabolic rate?

Some background on me, I'm a woman in my late 30s with a normal BMI and I had been doing low carb, high fat as well as a prolonged stint of keto with IF 16:8 throughout with some days off on the weekends for the past three years, or so I thought. After listening to this podcast, I now know I wasn't fasting clean or even really fasting at all, to be honest, because I was just putting just a splash of heavy whipping cream or unsweetened plant-based creamer in my coffee because based on what others had told me, I was still fasting as long as I was consuming under 50 calories and not using any sweetener. I was also drinking a bunch of unsweetened flavored dessert teas like vanilla bean, macaron, and butterscotch Blondie, as well as sipping broths and lots of unsweetened fruit-flavored seltzer like Lacroix, bone broth, bulletproof coffee, [unintelligible [00:32:58] brood cacao. I was sipping at all throughout my fast because I thought if I had no sweeteners, or just that, it was okay. I always had to be drinking something to quell my hunger and it was a struggle to barely make it to 16 hours.

And on the weekends, I often couldn't even make it that far. I now know why. And on top of that, despite my supposed fasting and low carb, high fat and keto efforts, I lost zero weight and even gained a couple pounds.” Before we go on, do you want to comment on that at all, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that is so much like the way I was early on before I read The Obesity Code. I was the same exact way because we were all just caught up in the calories in, calories out mindset. And if I wasn't eating a breakfast biscuit, I was fasting. And so, yeah, and just like Jen said, it was so hard. It was so hard. It was a struggle. I was basically white knuckling it every single day, so I get it.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting because when I first started intermittent fasting, I was not clean fasting, and it wasn't hard.

Gin Stephens: Well, I wonder if it has to do with-- I mean, you also were not obese. You probably didn't have crazy insulin resistance and your insulin levels were probably lower in general. Just overall.

Melanie Avalon: I honestly have no idea.

Gin Stephens: Well, also you were very young. So, that's really important. I was in my 40s and obese, and I think that's a huge factor.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm not saying that to challenge the clean fast, because fast forward to now, I'm like, completely an advocate of it. I just find that really interesting. I was just thinking about the stuff she was drinking because I was thinking about what I was drinking, which was flavored teas and stevia and all of that stuff. The thing actually that is interesting, my timeline was-- I think I probably cleaned up my food. I went paleo. That's when I cleaned up the fast and it was just all so beneficial.

Gin Stephens: And see mine was the opposite. I cleaned up the fast which made my body just naturally cleaned up the food after cleaning up the fast.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting how that happens. So, I was low carb for quite a while and then I added intermittent fasting, and I was doing one meal a day, and I heard about paleo from Robb Wolf, who I just interviewed, friends. I already said that I think on the show, but I interviewed him. It was crazy. I cried, almost. But in any case, I heard about paleo. I literally remember the day I heard about it. Gin, did you ever have like your crazy diet friend who would do all the crazy diets with you?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay.

Gin Stephens: I did not. Nobody was as crazy as me. Nobody.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I did. Shout out to Ben MP. So, I remember we would always do all the things together. He actually did the one meal a day with me when we first did it. I remember he was like, “Have you heard of this thing called paleo? I'm thinking of trying it.” And that's when I looked it up. It's so interesting because, Gin, people think with the fast eating, they're like, “Oh, what difference can it make cleaning up the fast?” That was my literal first thought. I was like, “What difference can it make cleaning up my food? I'm already fasting. I'm already doing one meal a day. Not really going to make much of a difference.”

Gin Stephens: Huge difference.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's interesting how we have similar-- for me the food and you the fasting, similar experiences of that whole experience of not appreciating the difference that might make and then realizing and just wanting to tell all the people.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. That's really it. The fact that we're not trying to take away your delicious sipping broths just because we're mean. Or we're not suggesting you gravitate towards real food just because it's amazing how different you feel.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, if it didn't feel absolutely so much more amazing on the other side, we wouldn't be advocating it. And to the food point, you find when people start fasting, they start craving more natural foods. The same, I feel, if you clean up your food, you start craving those foods and they taste so much more delicious. Anyway, back to her question.

She says, “I started to clean fast this past spring, just plain filtered water with the occasional unsweetened plain green tea or plain black coffee and was blown away by how much easier IF was with the clean fast and how great I felt.” Oh, my goodness, we just said this. So, she said, “Before I just thought IF is a way to lose weight. But now, I'm a convert for life for all the benefits I now know about, thanks to this podcast.

I also finally dropped those last stubborn seven pounds and got to my goal weight that has been eluding me for nearly eight years now." Yay." I can now easily breeze well past 16 hours with a clean fast and I've naturally settled to fasting 20 to 22 hours or longer daily with one meal a day. I basically break my fast when I feel hungry, which almost always is at least 20 hours into the fast. I don't check my eating window. I just eat one meal a day to satiety, which typically naturally results in a three to five-hour eating window. I feel best when I eat in the early to mid-afternoon and finish eating by 5:00 or 6:00 PM because I don't sleep well if I'm full and I feel sluggish the next day if I've eaten too late the day before. Because of my changing work schedule, however, I do one to two longer fast weekly of around 40 to 44 hours each, and they are so easy, and I feel absolutely great when I do them.

These longer fasts are usually spaced two days apart. So, I guess it's like doing ADF part of the week with one meal a day the rest of the week. For example, I'll typically have Monday and Wednesdays as down days where I eat nothing because I'm at work all day, and Tuesday and Thursday will be my up days. Friday through Sunday, I do standard one meal a day after fasting around 20 to 22 hours with occasional shorter 18-hour fast depending on how I'm feeling that day. The issue is that my up days on Tuesdays and Thursdays are still one meal a day. Not because I'm purposely trying to be restrictive, that's just what is comfortable and feels natural for my body. But after listening to this podcast and hearing Gin talk about ADF and the importance of eating at least two, and possibly three meals on up days to maintain metabolic rate, I'm concerned that I'm doing damage to my metabolism.

As an aside, I didn't even know what ADF was until I listened to this podcast. So, I didn't know that what I was doing with my longer weekly fast was even a thing. After hearing Gin talk about the importance of the refeeding on the up days, I've tried to eat at least two meals and extend my window, but I just can't. Mentally, I'm there, it makes total sense to me. But physically, I just can't. Is this part of the appetite correction Gin often talks about? I get so satiated with my first meal and one meal a day in general that I feel completely full and satisfied for the rest of the day. I've tried eating a smaller first meal on my up day, so I can eat more later, but that doesn't help. And I end up eating even less during the day, then if I eat into full satiety to begin with. If I were to eat a second meal, I'd have to extend my window so long that it basically blends right into my bedtime or I'd even have to stay up later just to accommodate a second meal somewhat comfortably, but then I'd be uncomfortable at bedtime.

My most recent up day, I forced myself to eat a second meal. It was really small, and it truly felt like a chore and obligation the entire time. I felt physically unwell, overly full, had terrible sleep. I felt sluggish and bogged down and uncomfortably full, yet paradoxically hungry the entirety of the next day, it was awful.”

"So, again," I think this is coming to her question, “Is it the number and/or timing of the meals on the up days that matters most? Or is it the overall nutritional intake? I don't like to use the term 'calories.' Is it okay for me to just eat one big satisfying meal on my up day if the overall nutritional intake would be equivalent or close to the two smaller meals I would otherwise have to force myself to eat? I'm an omnivore and don't follow a popular diet though in general, I try to avoid heavily processed foods and eat lots of vegetables and relatively lower carb than the standard American diet, but it's not low carb.

Even before listening to this podcast and having ADF/5:2 on my radar, I naturally ate more on my up days than on my typical one-meal-a-day days, but it was still a one-meal-a-day pattern and still finishing by around 6:00 PM. I don't count calories. I don't track macros. I just eat to satiety. And on these up days after a 40 to 44-hour fast, sometimes after 48 hours, I just naturally eat more than I do on a standard one-meal-a-day day where I fasted for around 20 to 22 hours. Is that okay? Does that protect my metabolic rate? Or do I need to eat at least two distinct meals over an extended window?

The thought of grazing tiny snacks all day as another option sounds miserable. When I eat, I want to eat. Skipping my weekly 40-hour fast is also not an option because it's a necessity given my work schedule and work environment on those days. Honestly, I don't want to skip those longer fasts anyways because they make me feel great. Thank you so much, ladies. I've learned exponentially more about IF from you these past three months than I have the past three years trying to do this on my own. Happy fasting, Jen.”

And then she does say, “Unrelated, but I came across a review article on fasting, COVID, and the immune system you two might find interesting.” I remember there were some questions about that in the previous episode, and we'll put a link to it in the show notes. It's called Intermittent Fasting, a Possible Priming Tool for Host Defense Against Sars-Cov-2 Infection: Crosstalk Among Calorie Restriction, Autophagy, and Immune Response. So very exciting.

Gin Stephens: That one's come up a bunch in the fasting groups, by the way, people have shared it.

Melanie Avalon: What's been the general conversation around it?

Gin Stephens: Well, it's a theory. They're like, “We think this could be helpful.” That's basically spoiler alert. That's what the article says. “We think fasting is probably great. That's it.” It just has to do with how fasting strengthens the immune system. And so therefore, they think that it would be a helpful tool.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. We'll put links to that in the show notes. So back to Jen’s question. I know that was really long, but I feel like this might be something a lot of people-- do you find people experience this, Gin? They're doing an ADF-ish type thing and then on their up days, they're just not feeling that urge or that need to-- Well, I guess we should first address her question for the up day, does it have to be meals spread out throughout the day? Or can it still be in a one-meal-a-day pattern?

Gin Stephens: I feel so very strongly about this that I would recommend not having the longer fast at all if you cannot have a refeed. I would not do it. Especially if you're somebody like Gin, who's at her ideal weight because the whole point of doing a longer fast and protecting your metabolism through the longer fast-- of course, the up day is protective of metabolism, but also you need to be well fueled during the longer fast.

So, let's imagine that you're at your ideal weight, our bodies, especially women, we need a certain amount of body fat. I was looking it up the other day because somebody was talking about their level of body fat and it was really low to me, and I looked and it was really low, for a woman. We have a certain percentage that we should be just for fat reserves, which is more than men should have. And so, when you start getting into the athlete level of fat percentage, our body is going to start to freak out, especially if she's in her late 30s. I don't know if she ever plans to have children, I don't know. But we certainly as women in our fertile years do not want to get into the state where our bodies are like, “Oh, gosh, we are over-restricting.” And so, I think that would be the perfect storm of, for your body. I mean, the bad one, the bad perfect storm because you're doing these longer fasts, you're at a really good weight already, and you're not willing to do a sufficient refeed, and you want to stick to one meal a day. That sounds like a really bad scenario for your body. And I would not recommend that at all.

If you want to do a longer fast, then you're going to have to have a longer window the next day to fit in more food because think about it from your body's point of view, not a lot of fat reserves, fasting over 40 hours, sometimes up to 48 hours twice a week, and then the next day only eating one meal. So, that's not going to send the, “Hey, we're well-fueled," message to your body.” It's not, it just isn't.

So, you're going to have to figure out a way to send that message to your body, and saying that it's not possible to-- you said skipping my weekly 40-plus hour fast is not an option because it's a necessity given my work schedule. I don't think any work schedule is going to expect people to not eat. You may feel really great working in the fasting state, and I get that. You're going to have to figure out a way to fuel your body.

I would not recommend one meal a day after the longer fasts, especially for someone at their ideal weight.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really glad we included this question. I think that's a really good message to put out there. I bet a lot of people probably wish they had Jen's problem, but I agree with everything that you said.

Gin Stephens: So, you really want to fill your body well. And it's tricky because we hear that in the groups, people were like, “Well, I'm just not hungry. I don't want to force myself to eat because isn't that against everything you've said?” Yes, it really does sound to be against everything we've said, forcing yourself to eat. But the thing is, is that you need to give yourself a longer period of time to let your appetite wake back up because if you over-restrict and over-restrict and over-restrict, that is not good for your body long term.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so it sounds like, Jen, your two potential options here are continuing to do your ADF but just trying to still work to find a way to have those adequate refeeding days, or just do a one-meal-a-day pattern, every day.

It reminded me of something else tangential, but related that I'd like to touch on, if I may because she was talking about how the difference between two meals versus one meal at once. I'm reading right now, Siim Land is coming out with a new book. I've had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The first episode I had him on was all about autophagy actually. So, if you'd like to learn all about that, definitely check that out. But his new book is called Stronger By Stress. Incredible. It's incredible. Well, knowing Siim Land, it's very, very intense and long and lots of information, but he does a really, really good job of providing a very thorough overview of-- The book is about the different ways that we can experience hormetic stress to make us stronger.

So, things like fasting, cold exposure, sauna, plant toxins, as well as healthy emotional stress. So, reframing our mindset and our perspective and he talks about things like stoicism, and it's really a valuable resource. But the point of this was is, we get a lot of questions on this show about people who are exercising and wanting to build muscle, and are concerned that they can't build adequate muscle with intermittent fasting. And he actually talks about that a lot and I found it really valuable because I learned a lot. So, people think with like protein, for example, that we can only-- we're often told that we need to eat protein constantly throughout the day to support muscle, that's been the general message. But what we know is that as long as you eat an adequate amount of protein within 24 hours of catabolism, so muscle breakdown, you can have adequate muscle build-up. The way this ties into the one versus two is, however, we have a gene called mTOR and it's what stimulates that growth state and that recovery state so actually when we're talking about this refeeding day, that's really important, part of that is evolving into a simulation, which is telling the body to grow and recover and build itself up again.

The way it works though, it's really interesting. When you eat a meal, especially high in protein, it stimulates mTOR, but it caps out. So, if you have a meal with decent amount of protein, you will stimulate up to a certain amount of mTOR expression. If you keep eating protein in that same meal, it's not like you stimulate mTOR more, it's kind of just it's on, which is totally fine, and you can still get all the protein you need but if you want to specifically build muscle and practice intermittent fasting, you can. But you probably need to have a longer window with two or even three separate meals with protein because when you do that, you'll stimulate mTOR multiple times for the muscle growth, if that makes sense. I just thought that was actually really, really valuable. And it just sparked my memory because you're talking about two versus one meal.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, there's definitely a difference.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so this is just for people who are like bodybuilders. If you want to have muscle growth and do intermittent fasting, you probably want to have a longer window with two or three meals that are stimulating mTOR rather than having it all in one meal.

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Gin Stephens: All right, so we have a question from Lauren. And it says, “Hi ladies, I love your podcast. I've been clean fasting since May 8, and I'm down 20 pounds.” Wow, that is a lot in such a short time. That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, by the way, her subject is another toothpaste question.

Gin Stephens: Another toothpaste question. All right. Yeah, today on the Ask a Moderator in the Delay, Don't Deny group, there were two toothpaste questions one after the other. I wanted to say, “Look up there.” [laughs] Scroll up. All right, so trust me, I've seen them all. She says, “I started my fitness journey in 2014. I've never seen results like I am seeing with IF. In respect to clean fasting, I would like to stop using Colgate toothpaste. I have two questions. I have heard on the podcast that just thinking about food or having anything including toothpaste in your mouth could spike insulin levels, especially if it's anything sweet tasting. Now, this might be weird, but I'm a huge salty snack person. I used plain baking soda and water to brush my teeth for the first time and my brain said, ‘Oh, this is something salty.’ Do you think I'm spiking my insulin levels because my body now thinks I'm eating something salty?”

If I could just pop right in and answer that one, our brain doesn't respond to salt or mineral tastes the same way it does to something sweet. So, the answer would be no. All right.

“I did feel hungry right after this, but I was also just about to break my fast regardless, so it was hard to tell. Second question, I find that the baking soda a little too bland, not feeling refreshed. Is adding one to two drops of organic peppermint oil into my homemade toothpaste okay? Or do you think this is not respecting a clean fast?

Bottom line. If my salty tooth is maybe spiking insulin and the peppermint oil is maybe questionable, is it even worth using homemade toothpaste or should I just use regular old Colgate? So far, IF has been effortless. Not sure why I'm overthinking this one so much. Hope this email wasn't too long and hope to hear from you both soon. Love the podcast. Thanks for all your support.”

Melanie Avalon: Well, first of all, I think it's funny she said she hopes it wasn't too long. We just read a novel. So, a few different questions in here, but Gin already answered the salt one. And if you think about it, oftentimes people doing fasting or particularly ketogenic diets with fasting, it's often very much encouraged that they might need electrolytes during the fast which is often a salty thing. So, don't have to worry about the salt.

This is just theorizing and talking. If some reason, a person does-- she says she feels it made her hungry. What are your thoughts on that?

Gin Stephens: I also have learned that what people say made me “hungry.” A lot of people have a lot of definitions for what they mean by made me hungry. A stomach growl, for example. So, it's hard to answer. A stomach growl is not technically hunger. That's a mechanical action. My stomach just growled, I think, right after I said that. My stomach growled. Does it mean I'm hungry? No.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. In any case, short answers with salt, it's not a problem. But it's for adding one to two drops of organic peppermint oil, I think that's completely fine. We've talked about peppermint before on this podcast and I always with peppermint have found it-- I use homemade peppermint breath spray every day, I find it kills my appetite. I've read studies where it reduces appetite, for you, but does it make you hungry?

Gin Stephens: No, it's fine for me. My brain does not associate it with a timed release of insulin. I use peppermint Burt's Bees all day long. So, that might be why my brain does not see it as, “Oop, calories are coming. We need insulin.” But I know people, even some of the moderators of our Facebook groups are like, “Yeah, I cannot do the vial drops or the peppermint oil.” It makes them shaky and so that's the sign that they've had an insulin response. That's why I consider peppermint oil to be in the gray area, as far as that goes.

Melanie Avalon: So, it's a case really of do you see how you respond to it? I will say just a little quick toothpaste PSA. Fun fact that might blow your mind if you didn't know it. Our teeth are actually-- I think, they're the only part of our body, that might not be exactly true, but I'm pretty sure they're the only, if not the only part of our body that in order to get their nutrition requires direct contact. So, you know how the rest of our body nutrients are delivered, they're processed by the body and they're delivered through the bloodstream and that's how it all goes down? That includes our bones. Our teeth, nothing gets delivered to the teeth through any bloodstream or pathway or highway. So, it's what you've literally directly put on your teeth. So, you want to make sure that your toothpaste in particular is something that is rich and mineralizing ingredients, so that it will support the health of your teeth. Isn't that so interesting?

Gin Stephens: That is interesting.

Melanie Avalon: That's like a fun fact that stuck with me for life. I was like, “Wow.” So, I guess that means that I wonder if the implications of that maybe that might mean that if you can eat a super high calcium teeth-supportive diet, but if you just shoveled it directly into your gut without going through your mouth your teeth might not actually be nourished from it, so fascinating.

Gin Stephens: I talk about this in Fast. Feast. Repeat. Lauren, if you have that book, it is on page 55, so you can turn there and look. I actually want you to use whatever toothpaste you want. Whatever it is, I don't want you to overthink the toothpaste or your morning dental routine and feel like you have to use baking soda with the salty flavor because here's why. We have a cephalic phase insulin response. Let's say your toothpaste-- if your brain did say, “Ooh, here's this sweetness coming in.” It happens within like two minutes, and then the insulin peaks at four minutes and returns to baseline between 8 to 10 minutes. So, that's going to be a really small spike. It's not going to be something that is going to last for hours. That's just something important to know. You brush your teeth, you go about your day, I would not recommend brushing your teeth every 10 minutes because that's going to be up and up and up and up. That's also why I think of gum and sodas and things like that is different because you don't just chew gum and then move about your day. It's something that continues and goes on and on and on. And back when I was a gum chewer, I was popping piece after piece after piece. So, it was pretty much continual. With your toothpaste, you're not continually doing it.

So, duration is important. I really encourage people to not stress too much about toothpaste. Use the kind that fits in with your philosophies, and if that's Colgate, then use Colgate. If that's the one you'd like to use, use it. If you want to make a homemade toothpaste with baking soda and peppermint oil? I don't know if that's what a dentist would recommend or not, I'm not really sure what they think about brushing with just baking soda. So, I'm not going to say to do that, because they might be like, “Oh, no, please don't do that.” I don't really know. Ask your dentist.

Melanie Avalon: To that point, the homemade one.

Gin Stephens: That might be a really bad idea. I just don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm a fan of homemade, but like I said, with the direct contact, you would probably want it to include things like their calcium powders and things like that, so that you're still getting that mineralization benefits. And I'm glad you brought up the insulin phase response. I know we've talked about that before on this show, but that was personally a big epiphany moment for me, what Gin just mentioned. Because basically, your pancreas has a little bit of insulin armed and ready to go. It's like a little bit, and it's what's released when you first taste something. It's what Gin just said. When you continue to eat and bring it in, then the pancreas once it loses that first little bit that it has primed and ready, it starts creating more, and that's what we don't want to happen, which would happen with eating or like Gin said, if you're continually having that flavor still coming in.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Now, I will say this also, if you notice every day after you brush your teeth, you get shaky like your blood sugar has crashed, maybe try a different brand or a different flavor. Switch from peppermint to a different-- I'm not going to say there's no time that toothpaste might be a problem for somebody. The issue is, if it makes you feel shaky, like your blood sugar is crashing, then you can experiment with different options. That's the only time I want you to worry about it.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode176. Feel like we talked a lot about a lot of stuff on this show. So, definitely check that out for all of the links to everything.

You can submit your own questions to the show. Just directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. You can follow me, I'm @melanieavalon. You can follow Gin, she's @ginstephens. And I think that's it, I guess. Anything else from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, talk to you next week. Bye.

Gin Stephens: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcast, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox.

See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, Gin's Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle, Feast Without Fear: Food and the Delay, Don't Deny Lifestyle and/or Gin's Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Clean Fast Protocol for Health, Longevity, and Weight Loss--Including the 21-Day FAST Start Guide

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Intermittent Fasting Stories

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com  

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Aug 23

Episode 175: Low FODMAP, Elimination Diets, IBS, Fear and Anxiety, Schedule Changes, Adapting Keto-Green to IF And More!

Intermittent Fasting

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 175 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

AUDIBLE: This is Melanie's well-known secret for reading #allthebooks #allthetime! Audible provides the largest selection of audiobooks on the planet, in every genre! With Audible, you can listen on any device, anytime, anywhere! Every month, members get 1 credit to pick any title, unlimited Audible Originals, access to daily news digests (The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and The Washington Post), guided meditation programs, Audible Sleep, and more! Audible provides rollover credits, easy exchanges, discounts on titles beyond credits, and audiobooks you'll keep forever! For those with children, check out the free Stories.Audible.com! Go To audible.com/ifpodcast Or Text IFPODCAST To 500500 For A 30 Day Free Trial, Including A Free Audiobook!

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SHOW NOTES

1:10 - AUDIBLE: Go To audible.com/ifpodcast Or Text IFPODCAST To 500500 For A 30 Day Free Trial, Including A Free Audiobook!

Sacred Cow: The Case for (Better) Meat: Why Well-Raised Meat Is Good for You and Good for the Planet (Diana Rodgers and Robb Wolf)

Paul Saladino – The Great Omnivore Debate, Subconscious Meat Perceptions, The Toxicity Spectrum, Fruit And Honey Benefits, Plant And Animal Defense Mechanisms, Omega 6 Fats, Organ Meats, And More!

14:05 - Listener Q&A: Ruth - A Million Thanks!

Mindset: The New Psychology of Success (Carol Dweck)

20:30 - BUTCHERBOX: Learn More And Place Your Order At ButcherBox.com/IFPODCAST

22:15 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

23:40 - Listener Q&A: Kayleigh - Hello from the UK!

FOOD SENSE GUIDE: Get Melanie's App At melanieavalon.com/foodsensguide To Tackle Your Food Sensitivities! Food Sense Includes A Searchable Catalogue Of 300+ Foods, Revealing Their Gluten, FODMAP, Lectin, Histamine, Amine, Glutamate, Oxalate, Salicylate, Sulfite, And Thiol Status. Food Sense Also Includes Compound Overviews, Reactions To Look For, Lists Of Foods High And Low In Them, The Ability To Create Your Own Personal Lists, And More!

33:15 - Listener Q&A: Kim - Fear

40:20 - BIOPTIMIZERS:  Go To www.magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save 10% Off

43:15 - Listener Q&A: Marie - Keto Green-16

Episode 97: All About Hormones With Dr. Anna Cabeca: IF And Menstrual Cycles, Menopause, The Keto Green Diet, The Importance Of Alkalinity, The Role Of Stress, Insulin/Cortisol/Oxytocin, And More!

Episode 159: Anna Cabeca, Keto Green, Hormonal Changes, Menopause, Alkalinity, IF for Women, Reversing Infertility, Sexual Health And More!

Dr. Anna Cabeca: Alkaline Keto Green Diet, Fixing Hormonal Issues, The Importance Of Minerals, Insulin/Cortisol/Oxytocin, Stress And Trauma, Lab Tests,Women’s Health, And More!

Dr. Anna Cabeca: Fixing Hormonal Issues, Healing Adrenal Fatigue, The Female Vs. Male Stress Response, Progesterone, Acidic Low Carb Diets, Alkaline Keto Food Sensitivities, Love And Oxytocin, And More!

The Hormone Fix: Burn Fat Naturally, Boost Energy, Sleep Better, and Stop Hot Flashes, the Keto-Green Way (Dr. Anna Cabeca)

Keto-Green 16: The Fat-Burning Power of Ketogenic Eating + The Nourishing Strength of Alkaline Foods = Rapid Weight Loss and Hormone Balance (Dr. Anna Cabeca)

45:45 - Listener Q&A: Camille - Hunger During Fasting

47:45 - Listener Q&A: Margaux - IF and Elevated Blood Glucose Levels

Daniel Tal (Lumen): Measure Your Carb Vs. Fat Burning, Hack Your Macros, Your Breath Signature, Low Carb Vs. Low Fat, Ketone Problems, Metabolic Flexibility, And More!

Lumen Lovers & Biosense Biohackers: Carb, Fat & Ketones With Melanie Avalon: Biohack Your Carb And Fat Burning (With Melanie Avalon): Join Melanie's Facebook Group If You're Interested In The Lumen Breath Analyzer, Which Tells Your Body If You're Burning Carbs Or Fat!  Get $50 Off A Lumen Device At MelanieAvalon.com/Lumen With The Code melanieavalon

55:10 - Listener Q&A: Christine - Question about mindset while in maintenance

Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny® Intermittent Fasting--Including the 28-Day FAST Start (Gin Stephens)

Emily Fletcher: Stress Less Accomplish More With Meditation, Improved Immunity, Mindfulness, Manifesting, Bliss Hormone Addiction, Changing The Brain, And More!

Jessica Flanigan: The Loving Diet, Restrictive Diet Freedom, AIP Fails, Love And Safety For Healing, Exhaustion, Orthorexia, The Language Of The Heart Vs Mind, Finding Joy, And More!

Amy Johnson: True Habit Change, Experience Vs. Self, Identity, The Magic of Insight, The Problems With Labels, Finding Peace In The Moment, And More!

IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life: Join Melanie's Facebook Group For A Weekly Episode GIVEAWAY, And To Discuss And Learn About All Things Biohacking! All Conversations Welcome!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 175 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of the sponsors for today's show. And that's Audible. Audible is the leading provider of spoken-word entertainment and audiobooks. Ranging from bestsellers to celebrity memoirs, news, business, and self-development. Every month, members get one credit to pick any title, two audible originals from a monthly selection, access to Daily News digests and guided meditation programs. Beyond Audible’s normal entertainment and audiobook options, I want to tell you about something special they're offering right now. And that's stories.audible.com.

Families with children are facing unusual challenges right now as schools may or may not be opening as normal. Audible launched a special website where anyone, anywhere can stream hundreds of their titles completely free, no strings attached for as long as the quarantine lasts. Audible’s hope is that stories.audible.com will offer everyone, including parents, educators, and caregivers, anyone helping kids as daily routines are disrupted, a screen-free experience to look forward to each day. You don't need to be an Audible member to access these free stories. To access these free audiobooks and titles, you can simply visit stories.audible.com from your computers, tablets, or smartphones. The experience is completely ad-free and completely anonymous. No need to download an app, sign up, or login. Just click, stream, and listen.

And now, here's a special offer just for our listeners. Visit audible.com/ifpodcast or text IF Podcast to 500-500. Try Audible for free and get one free audiobook in your first month. Of course, Melanie and I recommend that you choose What When Wine or Fast. Feast. Repeat., or even Delay, Don't Deny. Or you can choose from the thousands of titles available on Audible. That's audible.com/ifpodcast. And now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 175 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody. That's a lot of episodes.

Melanie Avalon: I was just about to say 175, it feels like a number.

Gin Stephens: It does.

Melanie Avalon: 200 is coming up. Are we going to do something fun for 200? What should we do?

Gin Stephens: I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Another Ask Me Anything. Did we do one of those already?

Gin Stephens: We did that for 100.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe we should do that for 200.

Gin Stephens: I think that would be fun.

Melanie Avalon: I think so too. Let's do it.

Gin Stephens: All right, listeners, we're doing it.

Melanie Avalon: Start submitting now. So, how many, that's 15 episodes away? Oh, wait, well, that's still like what? Three months?

Gin Stephens: That's 25 episodes away.

Melanie Avalon: Oh gosh, I can't do math.

Gin Stephens: Okay, nevermind. Do not submit them now.

Melanie Avalon: Don’t submit. Yeah, nevermind, lies. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Be thinking about them, people. Be thinking about. Ask us anything.

Melanie Avalon: But don’t send yet, please.

Gin Stephens: And some of the questions might have to do with math. No. [laughs] All right, good times. Anyway, we'll look forward to that for Episode 200. But we'll wait till we're closer so we can collect the questions.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. How are you today?

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm waiting for the cabinet guy to come. We know we've been remodeling this bathroom since January. Yes, that's right. January. It is now August. Yes, that's right. August. We are remodeling this guest bathroom that looked like the 1980s. The vanity has just been like a comedy of errors. So, fingers crossed that the vanity is correct. And I'm never going to get a complicated vanity ever again. This wasn't supposed to be a complicated vanity. But anyway, I've learned a lot of lessons.

Melanie Avalon: Do you know what my favorite acting role of all time on stage was?

Gin Stephens: What was that?

Melanie Avalon: Comedy of errors.

Gin Stephens: Oh. Well, this has been a comedy of errors. Also, don't order vanities apparently. No offense, Canada. I love you, Canada, but I'm not going to order a vanity from Canada. I love you, Canada. I feel bad, but--

Melanie Avalon: I feel like you've been remodeling something since our first episode.

Gin Stephens: Well, really, I've just been remodeling this bathroom forever. But we're always-- that's the thing about having a house. There's always something to do, something to work on. By the time you fix one thing, something else needs fixing. Like we just had to put in a new air conditioning system.

Melanie Avalon: That's exciting. I love air conditioning.

Gin Stephens: Oh, it was exciting. Oh, yeah. It changed our master bedroom. I love my house but the heating and AC guy is like, “Wow, this is the most interesting house I've ever seen when it comes to heat and AC.” [laughs] So, it took him two full days to install a new unit. That's how complicated our house is. But the bedroom is so much cooler. It's fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: It's like when the air people come in my apartment and they're like, “This is the cleanest air we've ever smelled.”

Gin Stephens: Exactly.

Melanie Avalon: Plug for molecule. Guess what?

Gin Stephens: What's that?

Melanie Avalon: Actually, I don't know if I already told you. Did I tell you I interviewed Robb Wolf?

Gin Stephens: I don't think you did. That's exciting. How did that go?

Melanie Avalon: I literally almost cried twice, literally. Because he's literally the reason-- I read The Paleo Solution in 2012, and that was that. I've been listening to his podcast since 2012. He's my hero. I thank him in the acknowledgments of my book. It's really funny though, I started the interview and the amount of fangirling that I was doing was just ridiculous. In the first sentence, he mentioned his wife and I was like, “Oh gosh, he probably thinks I'm hitting on him.” I'm not. I'm just obsessed. So, it was really, really wonderful. It was about his new book, Sacred Cow, which is a very critical look at the role of regenerative agriculture and the role of animals in a sustainable food system. And it's really, really fascinating honestly.

Sometimes, you read a book, and you realize that you really weren't understanding something complete-- you just completely have a new perspective on something, that is that book. It can either be like a really passionate subject for people who are really passionate, or it can be a really dry subject for people who are really interested. But it's a really, really good read. I think for the betterment of humanity, everybody should read it. And I need that.

Gin Stephens: So, what's the number one takeaway, a short takeaway?

Melanie Avalon: Basically, the takeaway is that the sustainability for the health of our bodies, for the sustainability of our economic system, supporting complete nutrition from a cost basis and sustainability of the environment, all really requires a regenerative agriculture inclusive of plants and animals. Oh, and for fixing the climate change issue. A plant-based system is just actually probably going to make that worse, make all of that worse. And the vital role of the animals and the environment, and our health. The role of privilege-- Sorry, I'm going off tangents. But in order to have a completely nutritious plant-based diet that meets all nutritional needs, it actually is from a privileged state because it requires supplementation and foods that aren't available at a cheap level. So, that's actually a privilege. It's fascinating.

Gin Stephens: That is an excellent point. I'm watching my 20-year-old son, navigate-- living alone for the first time. He dropped out of art school because he changed his mind about what he wanted to do. I'm really glad because he was going to a very expensive art school that we were paying for. I'm glad that he didn't waste all the money for an education that he realized he didn't need is my point. I bet a lot of people aren't like, “Yay, I'm glad my child dropped out of school,” but hopefully you get my point with it. But now, he's figuring out his way, and he cannot afford to buy quality food. It speaks to that point. He's just buying what he can afford to buy.

Melanie Avalon: The point to that and his book is, the highest nutrition and calorie per dollar is actually meat rather than plants. It's really, really fascinating. What's controversial in his book is, he actually makes the case that grass-fed versus conventional meat, there's not really much difference from a nutritional standpoint, but from environmental and sustainability standpoint, massive differences.

Gin Stephens: That's interesting. And of course, not what we've heard.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's why I love him because it's co-written by him and Diana something, but I feel it's very objective. I didn't understand global warming, climate change. You hear about climate change and you're like, “Oh, stop eating meat,” but literally, that's the worst thing we could do almost. So, actually read the book. Everybody should read the book. It was great, though. It was two hours. He actually talked to me for two hours.

Gin Stephens: I'm glad you got a chance to connect to your idol.

Melanie Avalon: I did. And then, I almost cried at the end too. So, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's very exciting. Congratulations.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. I'll put-- I don't know if it'll be out when this comes out. But I will put a link to it in the show notes.

Gin Stephens: And you got to interview me.

Melanie Avalon: Next thing I was going to say was, “Yesterday, I interviewed Gin also for two hours.”

Gin Stephens: I was like, what are we going to talk about for two hours, but we did it.

Melanie Avalon: We did. It's pretty good. Listeners, check it out. We obviously talked about Fast. Feast. Repeat. I think we talked about for the first three-fourths of it. And then, the last fourth was really, really fun. We did a random sort of rapid-fire questions that I had gathered from my Facebook group.

Gin Stephens: It was really a lot of fun. I enjoyed the questions, and I enjoyed the whole interview. So, thank you, thank you for having me.

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you for coming on. I think it's going to be a really valuable resource, because actually, it's funny. I talked about this before that I didn't really have any intermittent fasting specific episodes. But now, I think I'm going to have quite a few, but all with a different focus. And so, yours, I think is the best for the practical implementation. So, how to actually do intermittent fasting in your life and what that practically looks like. So, I think it's going to be a really, really valuable resource.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's how I want to be known. I'm not the person who knows everything. I don't want to try to be somebody I'm not. I'm your friend, Gin, who can give you some good tips, about how to do this thing called intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I also interviewed Dr. Paul Saladino again, who wrote The Carnivore Code.

Gin Stephens: Right. So, you interviewed him twice?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because he re-released his book, kind of like you did, but-- well, you did a new book.

Gin Stephens: I did. Yeah. Mine's all new.

Melanie Avalon: Because he had self-published it, and he re-released it. And now, it's like everywhere, traditional publisher. So, he's basically hitting all the shows, but he only had an hour. It was definitely the most intense. Normally, I'm not argumentative on that show at all. But it was definitely a good debate.

Gin Stephens: Oh, well, that's interesting. What was the crux of the debate? People will have to listen but--

Melanie Avalon: He's very pro-carnivore, like very pro-carnivore.

Gin Stephens: Like everyone should be carnivore.

Melanie Avalon: He has lightened up a little bit in his book. He doesn't think everybody should be carnivore and-- well, he does. But he provides like five tiers in his book, but from his paradigm, his opinion is that even if everybody doesn't do it, that it is the ideal diet for everybody, and that basically all plants are toxic. It's very intense. I feel we're applying different models of evaluating toxicity and plants versus animals, and I feel it goes both ways. Carnivore will people who often say, “All plants are toxic.” And then on the flip side, vegan and vegetarian will often say, “All animal is toxic,” and I just feel it's more nuanced. So, we really picked that apart a little bit. It was really good discussion.

Gin Stephens: Well, good. Sounds interesting. I will never be carnivore. Take that to the bank. [laughs] I could be vegan before I could be carnivore. And I really love cheese. So, that's saying a lot. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's true. That was something I brought up was, I was saying I believe there are defensive mechanisms in dairy. I found research to support that. So, yeah. In any case, that's that. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: Right. To start things off, we have a question from Ruth and the subject is a million things and dot, dot, dot. And Ruth says, “Dear Melanie and Gin, as we are learning that COVID weight gain has been the reality for most, I am extremely thankful that I found and started IF on December 6, 2019. When I saw a business colleague losing weight and transforming into a picture of health, I asked what she was doing. She said, ‘IF’ and referred me to your podcasts and books. I binge-listened to lots of episodes to get the scoop and I've been a faithful listener of all three shows ever since. I learned so much about a broad variety of health and wellness topics from you smart ladies. I've spent so much time with the two of you that I refer to you as my friends when I refer my inquisitive friends and family to you. A million thanks to both of you. I am 63 and live a very healthy and active life in Austin, Texas. Like Gin, my body just works, and I can eat and do pretty much anything I want.”

She says, “I've always stayed with a normal weight range, but I've cycled from gaining weight during the holidays, Halloween to Valentine's Day, and losing it for summer, most of the time. But for several years, there have been that extra 10 pounds that I knew I would be better without but can't knock it off. To make this long story short, I jumped right into 24-ish pretty easily and I've been clean fasting from the start. I am happy to report that I did not experience holiday or COVID weight gain. Rather, I have lost a slow and steady one pound per month. I'm seeing body competition and feel great. I am a minimalist in most aspects of life. So, IF is a perfect lifestyle for me. Again, a million thanks to both of you.”

“Now, to get to my real question. Gin, you mentioned a book that changed the way you taught and transformed the way you approach life. I think you gave the following example of a language change. Say you have worked so hard, instead of you are so smart, I would like to recommend it to my school teacher daughter, who strives to be as good as the best teachers that made a lasting impact on her life. I looked but did not find it in the transcripts or on the book list. Can you tell me the name and author, please? Thank you.”

Gin Stephens: Yes, it's the book Mindset by Carol Dweck. And there's actually a revised version that I haven't read, it's updated. I had the original, but Carol Dweck, and it's a fabulous book, it changed the way I taught completely. So, definitely look it up. For those of you who have not yet read Fast. Feast. Repeat., my very favorite chapter of the whole book is Chapter 20, which is the Mindset chapter. And I go way beyond, of course, Carol Dweck. I mention her briefly but talk about how important our mindset is to this process. The process of intermittent fasting, the process of losing weight, the process of anything we want to be successful with. Mindset is key.

Melanie Avalon: I love mindset. So, for listeners, we'll put a link to that in the show notes, and the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode175. Then, for the rest of Ruth's email, she says one last story before I close.

“I just returned from a two-week vacation to Glacier National Park by way of Colorado, Grand Tetons, Yellowstone, Canyonlands, and Arches National Parks. My teacher daughter, also an avid hiker, took us on daily hikes at two to four hours that were very strenuous and at a high elevation. She was so worried that I would not be able to do it in a fasted state that she took lots of emergency snacks. As you might imagine, and to her amazement, I did great. While they were always worrying about what, when, and where they would eat next. I fasted all day and ate a wonderful dinner. I will conclude with another million thanks to both of you.” I love that.

Gin Stephens: I love it too.

Melanie Avalon: I love that she actually went hiking and her family thought it wasn't going to happen, and it was great.

Gin Stephens: I know. And she told us she's 63. So, I love that. Now, that I'm 51, 63 doesn't sound very old. 63 sounds just around the corner. So, I know I'll be able to hike when I'm 63 as well, so I can't wait. That's thrilling.

Melanie Avalon: Do you like hiking?

Gin Stephens: No. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I don't mind either.

Gin Stephens: To be in the woods or outside-- I mean I like to be outside in a, I don't know, less rustic environment. Let me just put it that way. Outside by the pool in my backyard, for example. I went hiking a couple years ago. I went to my sister's mountain house and we went hiking and I was in the fast state and it was super easy to do. But then, I got so carsick I hadn't been back. I don't like the mountains.

Melanie Avalon: I love the mountains, but not the hiking. I have a bag that says, “I love not camping.”

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, it was really funny because I was hiking and I'd have leather sandals on, like fancy ones, really expensive, fancy leather sandals that I hiked in. So, I didn't have any other shoes. And I also carried my purse with me, which looked hilarious. It was like an over-the-shoulder kind of a purse. But I had my car keys, and I was in my car I had driven. Well, I had my sister's car keys. Actually, we're in her car, but I had the car keys in my little purse that I carried for her. I probably looked like an idiot.

Melanie Avalon: I remember when I went to Europe for my high school Europe trip. We climbed-- I don't know what it was. It was some famous thing, like Scotland or England or somewhere, I don't know. And we didn't think it was like that big of a climb, but it actually was-- it was one of those like tourist things, we're like, “Oh, you know, climb up to the top,” but it's really traumatic. And I did it in high heels.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, similar thing. These were not high heels. But I'm sure everyone is like, “What is wrong with that girl?” I mean I had on jewelry. I did not look like a hiker. I looked like I was at the mall or something or going out to brunch. I actually thought we were going to go out to brunch, and we didn't. Instead, we went hiking. So, there you go. Anyway, I would have preferred brunch, but I can hike is my whole point of the story.

Melanie Avalon: If you wanted to.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, if I wanted to. I get that people love it. It might be because I grew up in the mountains of Virginia. We lived really far out in a very rural area. And so, I had my fill of it. Maybe that was what it was.

Melanie Avalon: I would have thought the opposite, but I guess that makes sense. Maybe like I grew up in the south grass and I will never like to step foot in a field again.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Are you allergic to trees?

Gin Stephens: I used to have a lot of trouble with allergies but since intermittent fasting, I don't.

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Melanie Avalon: Alrighty. Shall we jump to the next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes, this is from Kaylee. And Kaylee says, “Hi both from the UK. Okay, so I will try and keep this brief. But at the same time, I need to convey my situation correctly in the hope that you can help me. I am 32 years old and have dieted ever since leaving university in 2009. I managed to keep the weight off for a few years until one day, November of 2018, I looked at myself and whilst appreciating that I looked good, I still had the same insecurities, cellulite, stretch marks, bingo wings, etc., than before.”

Melanie Avalon: What are bingo wings?

Gin Stephens: Like your arm hanging down, like batwings

Melanie Avalon: Oh yeah, yeah.

Gin Stephens: “There and then I decided that I was through with the mental health rollercoaster of dieting and having issues around food and body image. Separate to this, I went vegan overnight in February of 2018. And prior to this, had suffered with IBS since 2016. So here I am now, 24 pounds heavier, and in more IBS discomfort than ever. I found your podcasts and binge-listened to them within three weeks, and I am now up to date. I started IF on the 18th of March doing 18:6 and have clean fasted every day since. Yes, even through lockdown. I have very between 18:6 on a weekend and 21:3 during the week. I have lost nothing. Zilch. Yes, Gin, I did daily weighing and ironically on the day I calculated the average, I was the same weight. And even though I vowed not to weigh myself in June, I now look and feel really bloated. Clothes are very tight. I have read all your books and others, fun for the win. And I am wholeheartedly invested in the science and sold with the benefits of IF."

"This brings me to my IBS issue. A very long story short, I have been told to try the low FODMAP diet to try to figure out my sensitivities. This includes a strict elimination phase, then weeks of reintroducing potential trigger foods with the aim for the triggers to be identified. My anxiety with this is not being able to commit to IF at the same time as a very restrictive FODMAP diet. It's not forever and isn't designed to be followed long term. I guess I'm just asking for your opinions and any advice regarding the whole situation. Thank you both for the research time and effort you put into this lifestyle and spreading the knowledge for others. You really are like two friends I can pull out of my pocket and listen to for advice, information, and giggles. Thank you for taking the time to read my SOS call. Much love from the UK, Kaylee.”

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, thank you, Kaylee, for your question. First of all, I think it's awesome that you're sticking to clean fasting, but I'm sorry about the weight issues and the IBS. I can definitely speak to the FODMAP aspect of things. So, low FODMAP diet basically, it involves different compounds common in foods that are easily fermentable by gut bacteria. And the thought is that a lot of people have small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, which is where there's an overgrowth of bacteria in your small intestine, which should be relatively sterile compared to your large intestine, and so a low FODAMP diet basically reduces their food sources and it can help with digestion, bloating, IBS, things like that. So, the type of foods common on it-- like meat doesn't have FODMAPs. It's things like cucumbers and a lot of leafy greens. Certain fruits are low FODMAP, like pineapple and berries.

Higher FODMAP foods are a lot of like starches, a lot of grains and then a lot of fruits as well. The fruits are half and half. If you're curious about it, I do have an app that is very, very helpful, Kaylee, if you have an iPhone. It's called Food Sense Guide. You can get that at melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide and it will reveal over 300 foods for their FODMAP levels. And not just FODMAPs, actually 10 other compounds. So, histamine, gluten, lectins, oxalates, salicylates, nightshades. It's a really valuable resource. I'm actually currently updating it for resistance starch and AIP, which is exciting. But you can go and get it now, because you'll automatically get updates, they're free. But in any case, it's ironic or it's funny, I don't know. Lot of people do see low FODMAP as very restrictive, I love low FODMAP.

I've basically been eating low FODMAP before I even knew what low FODMAP was for probably 10 years. And it's just because it was the foods that don't make me bloated and uncomfortable. I was kind of already doing it, and I continued to do it and I don't feel restricted at all. That said, I'm the type of personality that does really well with simple. It's interesting, I feel when it comes to food, a lot of people really seek variety and they get bored. And then, there's the type like me that I have no interest in variety. I like the foods I like, and I don't really like expanding beyond that. So, my recommendation is, well-- for people who want to try a low FODMAP diet, if you're like me, and you like simple, then it's actually pretty easy. But if you are like Kaylee and you do feel like it's restrictive--

Her main question is, should she be doing it while doing IF? I actually say yes, unless you can't reframe it this way, but maybe you can. You've already been doing IF. And the thing is I don't get the sense from you that you feel IF is restrictive. You've been doing it and you haven't ever not clean fasted. I don't sense that from you. So, if you don't feel IF is restrictive, then maybe you can just see as changing your food choices, but if it does feel way too restrictive for you, you could stop doing IF and just do low FODMAP. But I don't know, I would really encourage you to try it since you've already been doing IF for so long.

Gin Stephens: Yes. And I think that's true. If I were going to do an elimination protocol to try to figure out if foods were bothering me, I would still do it within my intermittent fasting paradigm just because that's how I eat. I'm an intermittent faster, I have an eating window, so I would make all the changes just within my eating window.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because then you're changing two variables. It's the opposite of what Gin says in Fast. Feast. Repeat. In that, when she says, starting IF, not to change your diet, because you want to just change the one variable because you're making this huge paradigm shift to fasting, so if you're starting fasting, you might not want to change your diet as well.

Gin Stephens: You don't want to change too many things at once. That's my thing, because then you might start to feel bad because you stopped intermittent fasting, not because of the low FODMAP. So, we all want to try out and change everything at one time. That's human nature for so many of us. Slower changes where you're changing one thing at a time, then you can really see what's making the difference.

Melanie Avalon: To that point, fasting is typically often recommended in the low FODMAP approach because it allows the cleansing ways, the peristalsis, and the small intestine to clear. So, if this is to address GI distress, fasting is actually one of the best things you can do for that. So, yeah, I really, really encourage you go through the list, get my app. Go through the list and see if you find a lot of foods on it that you really love and try to reframe and don't see it as restrictive. Rather than what you can't have, maybe focus on what you can have. I love low FODMAP. All the things I adore are low FODMAP. Meat, coconut oil, pineapple, berries, cucumbers. That's just a few foods, but those are the foods I love.

Dairy is low FODMAP if it's lactose-free. If it contains lactose, then it's higher in FODMAPs. I don't know, it can really be a game-changer. I'm excited for you because it can be a game-changer for a lot of people. And like you said, it's not intended to be long term unless you realize that you just really thrive on it.

Gin Stephens: You're the expert of that. So yeah, good info. I hope, Kaylee, that you figure out what it is because I know that it's miserable to have IBS, so I hope that you can figure out what's triggering it for you.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, since you went vegan overnight on February 2018 and you had IBS prior to that, it sounds like you're still vegan. That adds in another factor. That's going to be a little bit more limiting if you're still doing vegan. I don't know if you're vegan for ethical reasons or nutritional reasons. If it's nutritional reasons-- I didn't plan this, but what we talked about at the beginning of this conversation, I would encourage you to analyze that a little bit further because there could be something there. A lot of people do vegan diet-- I'm not putting down vegan diets, but I do know a lot of people, especially in the lower carnivore world came there after having nutritional issues or digestive issues, IBS issues on extremely plant-based or vegan diets and then had a lot of that resolve. So, just something to consider.

The next question comes from Kim, and the subject is fear. Kim says, “Hi, I'm a teacher at a private school. And believe it or not, we are going back to school, live and in person next week. I started IF at the beginning of this summer after seeing friends who looked amazing. They told me all about IF. I started a few days later after reading Delay, Don't Deny. I read Fast. Feast. Repeat." She says, "I've been doing great all summer with a relaxed schedule 24. This past week, I've been sabotaging myself. I'm so nervous about going back, getting up much earlier, and starting my day without my usual sugar and creamed up coffee and breakfast. I have this very serious fear that I won't be able to do it. Get over the morning slump and last the whole day without eating, which is my goal. I would love to not eat until school is over. The schedule this year is crazy enough with all of the changes, masks, less breaks, teaching a hybrid of online as well as in person. I most likely won't have time to eat, but I need to find a way to calm my nerves and get over the morning slump. Since you were a teacher, I was wondering if you have any tips on how to deal with the transition from a summer schedule to school schedule. Thank you.”

Gin Stephens: Well, Kim, it's great to hear from you. And as I talked about, was it on the last episode? My friends who are teachers were getting ready to start back to school, I think, the next day. In our school system where I taught, they were going back in person, same thing. Elementary was in-person five days a week and the middle, high, they are doing a hybrid A-B kind of a schedule where half the kids come every other day. I'm feeling very emotional about it because if I had not retired from teaching, it would be me right there, and I know that it's got to be so hard emotionally. And this is different and it's different for the kids. There's a fear. Like you said, the subject of your email was “Fear.” But I want to tell you one thing, intermittent fasting is going to make this easier for you, not harder for you. Because I taught for 28 years, and it was so much easier when I was an intermittent faster, and I didn't eat till school was over. It made my life so much easier. Don't be afraid that you can't.

Instead, go ahead and tell yourself, not only can you, but it's what's going to make the day so much better. You're going to get up, you're going to have your black coffee. I've said this before, but I know that the sugar and the creamer are soothing, but I want you to think of the black coffee, maybe it doesn't taste soothing because maybe you don't love the taste of it. But think of it as your black coffee medicine that you're going to drink-- or you could just skip coffee completely. Once I got to the point where I didn't dislike the taste of it, once I adapted to it, I actually enjoy the black coffee. So, until you get to the point where you enjoy it, if you still want to include it, just tell yourself, “This is what I'm doing. I'm doing this for myself, and it's helping me with the clean fast.” Have your black coffee, go to school.

You're going to find not eating, not having to snack, buys you so much time. You're not going to have the breaks that you're used to having from the past, you said that already. And so, the time that you normally would have spent with eating, snacking, having lunch, you're going to be able to be more productive. So, hats off to you and all the teachers, and y'all are heroes. I know that you can do it. Don't be scared. Instead, embrace that this is going to make it easier for you and not harder.

One of my friends that I taught with, she's actually a great friend. One year, she co-taught with me when I was a third-grade teacher. She was a special education inclusion teacher. So, she pushed into my classroom when I was teaching math and worked with the children that had special education needs when it came to math and also helped me teach all the kids. And then, she taught my son when he was in fifth grade, my older son, Cal, who's now married, that's how long we've been friends. And then also, I've taught her daughter in the gifted program. And so, she's in one of my Facebook groups, and she is an intermittent faster. And she posted after the first day of school, she's now a first-grade teacher, how crazy it was for her the first day back and they're trying to figure out their way and she didn't get a lunch break, and she didn't even get a bathroom break. She had no breaks at all the first day of school, but thanks to intermittent fasting, she was able to do it.

So, I think that you can, Kim, and you're going to be really grateful for intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon: To clarify reading her question, do you think-- so her current schedule, it sounds like she's doing a breakfast and lunch.

Gin Stephens: I'm not really sure. It might be that she's nervous about starting her day as a teacher without the sugar, cream, and coffee and breakfast. It's different because she's at home, so she's able to-- I don't know what schedule she's using now. But it may just be that she's not sure she can teach without the breakfast and the coffee that she used to have. That's how I interpreted it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because I feel depending on what it is, it's two different situations. She says that she's been doing a relaxed 24 schedule. Now, she's starting school and she's nervous doing it without her usual--

Gin Stephens: I just took that as she's nervous as teaching school because she's not ever gone to school without breakfast.

Melanie Avalon: She says without her usual sugar and creamed up coffee and breakfast, which could either be what Gin said, her usual from teaching, or it could be her usual-- it could be right now, she's doing a breakfast-lunch window, and if so, it's two different things. Because if she's doing a later window already, everything Gin just said, it's going to be most likely much easier than in the past when you were running on sugar and breakfast. The reason I'm just confused and maybe I should have emailed her for follow up is, if she's already doing it as an evening window and feeling good, I wonder if she's used to having energy in the morning fasting. Teaching's not going to really be any different as far as the energy that you get while fasting.

Gin Stephens: I think she's probably just worried that she can't because she never has before. She's never taught without that before. She says she's doing a 20-hour fast every day. If you can do a 20-hour fast and open your window in the morning, you can do a 28-hour fast and open your window later that first day and then that's your new schedule. If you're adapted to a 20-hour fast, I think you can push it a few more hours.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, gotcha. Yeah, because it's funny, I'd read it the opposite. I read that she was doing breakfast right now and she wanted to change it.

Gin Stephens: Well, either way. Like you said, if she is doing breakfast now and she wants to change it, she's already doing 20 hours. If her body's adapted to 20 hours, she can go longer.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that'll be great.

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Gin Stephens: All right, this is from Marie, and the subject is Keto-Green 16. “Hello ladies, thank you for a wonderful podcast. I listen every week. I have a question about Dr. Anna Cabeca’s Keto-Green 16 plan and how to implement it into the clean IF lifestyle. I'm 51 years old, and have been IFing for over a year with some benefits but not much weight loss. So, listening to Dr. Cabeca’s plan, I instantly thought that is my problem. Hormones, over 50, not reducing my insulin or hitting ketosis because of what I'm eating. Then, I got the plan and thought, ‘Wait, what? I can't have the morning drink, that will push me out of fasting.’ I usually do 18:6 or a 20:4 plan with a late afternoon early evening window. Can you explain how I can implement Dr. Cabeca’s plan of eating, especially her morning drink and still maintain my clean fast? Thanks again for all the wonderful information, Marie.”

By the way, this brought back memories because when we talked to Dr. Cabeca was when I was recording the audiobook for Fast. Feast. Repeat. I was recording in my kitchen, little studio. So, I'm like imagining sitting in my little kitchen recording studio and now I'm back in my regular podcast room. Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Whenever I think of Dr. Cabeca, I just instantly feel calm. She has a really wonderful spirit. So, yeah, encouraging. I wanted to include this question because a lot of people have asked me this. I don't know if people have talked about this in your groups, Gin?

Gin Stephens: No, not really.

Melanie Avalon: Basically to Dr. Cabeca’s Keto-Green 16, she's a big proponent of intermittent fasting. And her version to keto really focuses on the alkalinity aspect. So, making sure that diet's not acidic to the body. But she does have some drinks that definitely, in our opinion, break a clean fast. Long story short, is how can you implement her plan of eating especially for morning drink and still maintain your clean fast?

Basically, you can do the food choices that she advocates in your eating window and not do the morning drink. Or you would have your eating window encompass the morning drink. But if you want to technically do the “clean fast,” you would not be doing the morning drink and a later eating window. Oh, and we will put in the show notes a link to the two episodes. She's been on twice, right?

Gin Stephens: She has. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Two episodes that we've had with her.

Gin Stephens: She has two books.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Right, The Hormone Fix, and Keto-Green. I've had her on my show twice as well. Well, so we will put four links. I think I've had her on twice, maybe just once. I'm not sure. We'll put links in the show notes. All right, so the next question comes from Camille. The subject is Hunger During Fasting.

Camille says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. I've just started listening to your podcast and reading Gin's new book. I've been intermittent fasting for about two years, but not consistently. I recently started a few weeks ago doing 16:8 eating from noon until 8:00. I've been clean fasting, only having black tea in the mornings and saving my delicious coffee with milk for the afternoon. The problem is, I get really hungry when I wake up in the morning and it continues until 12. I can't change up the times much because my fiancé gets home late from work and we eat dinner together around 7:00. It's discouraging and makes me want to go back to eating breakfast even though I've lost a little weight in the past few weeks. How can I stop being so hungry in the morning? Am I doing something wrong? Thanks.”

Gin Stephens: All right. Camille, you just started again a few weeks ago, so you're still in the adjustment period. I would reread the 28-Day FAST Start. And I would consider the Easy Does it Approach where you're easing yourself in. Just start from today with the Easy Does it Approach and ease yourself in so that you're training your body to get into the fat-burning state and so that you are able to fast better, instead of being so hungry all the time because if you're hungry, hungry, hungry, that means your body is not tapping into your fat stores. So, you want to help your body get to that point. A long eating window actually does make it harder.

So, if you look at the 28-Day FAST Start, you're gradually shrinking that eating window and training your body to, like I said, to tap into fat. So, if you keep a 16:8 all the time, it lengthens the adjustment period because just when your body is making that transition, boom, you fill up and eat again. I know it's counterintuitive, but you need to push through some longer fasts eventually to get over that hump. That's my recommendation for that.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's great. Alrighty. Are you ready for Margot? Margot’s subject is IF and Elevated Blood Glucose Levels.

Gin Stephens: “Hi Gin and Melanie. I love the podcast and have learned so much from both of you. I am 42 years old and have been doing IF for over two years now, I mainly have a window of about 24-ish. Two days a week. I throw in a 36 to 42-hour fast. The longer fasts are not hard for me. I actually have to force myself to eat so I can have a family dinner with my son. I am just not hungry a lot of the time. I started IF to tighten up and lose about five pounds. I was never overweight but was looking to maintain and tone up after the birth of my son four years ago. After I started researching the health benefits of IF, I have stuck with it mainly for the purposes of autophagy and healing. I always clean fast and do high-intensity interval training workouts or vigorous walking in the fasted state. This is why I was a little thrown when I went to have bloodwork done last week and found that my fasting glucose was 106. I was shocked. I had been fasting for 16 hours when the test was done. I normally eat very clean in my window, mainly paleo but allow for some flexibility on weekends. This number makes me very nervous. Going back through old bloodwork, I do see that my fasting glucose levels typically are in the 90s. I thought that with IF, they were supposed to drop due to insulin sensitivity."

"Then I started thinking, I remember an episode where Gin was talking about black coffee actually raising glucose levels in the fasted state, not due to high blood sugar, but because it helps the liver clear out glycogen more efficiently. I did have a cup of black coffee the morning of my blood draw." Ding, ding, ding. This is Gin just saying that. I think that's it. "I am wondering if that is what is contributing to my high glucose levels. I am very nervous. I have messaged my doctor and asked for a retest but also asked to have my hemoglobin A1c levels tested. In the meantime, I also remember Gin talking about having bloodwork done to test her fasting insulin levels, not glucose. Can you please provide that information? I would love to have that test as well even though it is not mainstream. I should also add that I did faint during the blood test. I never do well with blood draws, and I wonder if that's why my level spiked as well. I would be curious to hear your thoughts on all of this. Be well and stay safe.”

Yes, Margot. I think that you shouldn't have coffee before you go have fasted blood work. That would be my recommendation. Don't have coffee, just have water and maybe try again for that. As far as a fasting insulin test, your doctor can just order that. It's not anything your doctor can't ask for. Even though it's unusual for doctors to ask for it. They can do it.

Melanie Avalon: I had episode on the Lumen device. It doesn't measure blood sugar, but it's a breath analyzer that tells you if you're burning carbs or fat. So basically, it tells you if you're producing energy from glucose or from fatty acids. Not ketones, glucose or fatty acids. Of course, if you're running on ketones, it would show that you're fat burning. I think one of the biggest things people are learning because I actually started a whole Facebook group for it, if you're interested, it's called Lumen Lovers: Biohack Your Carb And Fat Burning. So, you can join me there. But one of the things I keep hearing over and over and over is so many people are doing fasting and their Lumen is saying that they're burning carbs during the fast. It just happens over and over and over again.

I think it's a very common thing actually, especially if your body is not preferentially really embracing the fat-burning mode during the fasted state for whatever reason. Stress, coffee, so many different things can encourage the liver to release glycogen. So, release blood sugar, or create glucose from a process called gluconeogenesis. So, even if your liver is glycogen depleted, it can still produce glucose. Oftentimes, if their body's not naturally really switching into ketosis, then when the liver glycogen gets depleted, rather than preferentially turning to fat stores and ketones, the liver might decide to actually create glucose from protein.

Actually, I'm reading right now The Fatburn Fix by Cate Shanahan, is blowing my mind because she talks about how until the brain really gets accustomed to running on ketones and the whole body does, it could actually, with dropping blood sugar levels, send a message directly to the liver to basically create glucose. The point of all that is that a lot of people actually do find that they have higher fasting blood sugar levels. Like I said, it could be stress, it could be the coffee, exercise tends to do it as well. So, yeah, it's definitely something to consider. You can retest, the insulin thing will be great as well. If you have your own blood sugar monitor-- they're really affordable, we can put a link to them in the show notes. If you get over the fear of pricking yourself, then they're really easy to do. You could be testing and you could find out-- you could also get that Lumen device, like I said, and it could maybe help you figure out if you're fat or carb-burning during the fast. I'll put a link to it on the show notes and I also have a discount for it, $50 off. I just think so many people experience this, and I'm just hearing it more and more ever since I started that Lumen group.

As far as recommendations for it, there's so much to consider. Like I said, you probably would do more testing to see what the trend is. But then after that, you might want to reevaluate the foods you're eating, your stress levels, you really have to reevaluate everything. Hemoglobin A1c would be pretty telling. For listeners who aren't familiar that, it shows the level of glycation on your red blood cells. So, when your blood sugar is elevated, it can glycate your red blood cells. If it's elevated consistently, you're going to see that in your hemoglobin A1c. It's a long-term predictor. It can reveal more information.

That said, since you're already down for asking for random tests that doctors don't usually do like fasting insulin, something even more telling than hemoglobin A1c is fructosamine because hemoglobin A1c can actually be slightly misleading because-- it's complicated, but basically if your blood cells are dying faster, you could have a false-- I guess would be a false negative. Like your hemoglobin A1c could look good, but it's just because your red blood cells are dying faster. That's why a lot of people in the low carb world will argue that you might get a higher hemoglobin A1c because your red blood cells are actually living longer. Fructosamine is probably going to give you the best predictor or the best-- it's really going to show you what's actually happening with your blood sugar and your red blood cells. I just mention that because she's going to ask for insulin, might as well ask for all the uncommon tests. But yeah, that was a technical answer. But we'll put links to all of this stuff in the show notes. We have time for one more question.

This is from Christine. The subject is "Question about Mindset, [unintelligible [00:55:14] Maintenance." And Christine says, “Hello. Although I've been practicing IF for three years and maintaining my weight for almost two years, I just found your podcast. I struggle with one thing and that is how do you change your daily thoughts when you no longer are concerned about losing weight? I spent 40 years worrying about diets and weight loss every day. Can you direct me to any information that's out there that is directed toward those of us in maintenance and how to deal with no longer having to worry about our weight or diets? When we spent a lifetime thinking about that every day, it's strange not to have to think about it and I wonder if some people end up going backwards because that's their comfort zone. I hope this question makes sense. Thank you for any help you can provide.”

Gin Stephens: Yeah, this is a great question. And Christine, if you haven't read Fast. Feast. Repeat., yet, I would encourage you to read it. The beginning chapters talk about why intermittent fasting is the health plan with a side effect of weight loss. So, once you realize the amazing health benefits of intermittent fasting, you would never want to quit, you would never go backwards as you put it, because you're going to realize that intermittent fasting is what you do to live a long and healthy life. My husband, who does intermittent fasting only for the health benefits, he never needed to lose weight. So, I want you to change your daily thoughts from dieting and losing weight to, I do intermittent fasting because it's a healthy way to live. And then you just-- what was that commercial, that infomercial? Set it and forget it. You just do it. It's like a Ronco rotisserie, set it and forget it. Have you ever seen that, Melanie? It's probably too old for you.

Melanie Avalon: I haven’t.

Gin Stephens: Okay, set it and forget it. The older members of the audience are like, “Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.” So, that's how I want you to think about intermittent fasting. It is no longer what you're doing to try to lose weight. It is the way you live because it's healthy and you feel great while you do it.

Melanie Avalon: I love this question so much, because when you've been in one mindset for so long, the more you think about certain things, you're creating those neural pathways, they're reasserting themselves, they're strengthening themselves. It's really, really hard to change that. Even anxieties that we have, it's so hard to talk yourself out of an anxiety or a fear. Logically, you can know that something is not a threat or something is not happening or something is not true. But as long as that thought is deep in your limbic system, in your amygdala, subconscious, it's really, really hard to change those. That's why I think there's a lot of different avenues to work with it and you really just have to find the one that works for you.

Some people do really well with journaling. Some people do really well with meditation. Okay, I'm just going to list off a lot of episodes because I've had episodes that might help with this that might really help you, Christine. So, meditation helps a lot of people. I interviewed Emily Fletcher. I will put a link to that. Actually, by the time this comes out, I think it will have aired, I recently interviewed Jessica Flanigan, and she wrote The Loving Diet. And that episode of the book really can be a game-changer. It's about replacing these fears and thoughts and anxieties, all with love that having that perspective. It sounds so simple, but it can be really, really profound.

One of my most popular episodes was with Amy Johnson, she wrote The Little Book of Big Change. Really, really huge paradigm shift there as far as just experiencing everything as an experience and not as right and not as wrong. That framework and mentality can help. And using-- like what Gin said replacing that thought of intermittent fasting as a diet and replace it with a healthy lifestyle, as like a lifestyle. If you can somehow use your worry about diets and weight loss as a trigger to replace it, if you can see it as rather than when you have that thought and you're worried about it, be excited by that thought, because you can use it as a trigger to reframe and we know that our brains can change the more we wire them differently and think about different things. So, yeah, there's a lot of tools in the toolbox you can use. You just really have to find the tool that works for you because goodness knows changing these thoughts, especially when identity is tied in, is so, so difficult, but that's why we can be grateful if there are all of these tools, and we can be grateful that the brain can change. So, I’ll put links, links in the show notes galore. This is like the links and the show notes episode.

Well, anything else from you, Gin?

Gin Stephens: No, but I think this was a jampacked episode and we got to-- Gosh, I can't even-- I'm going to count them. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. We got to seven listener emails. That might be a record.

Melanie Avalon: It's pretty awesome. I thought of one more thing for Christine. Can I say it really quick?

Gin Stephens: No, I'm sorry. Your time is up. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: There's just so many tools. Also, Christine, join my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, ask this question, people will flood you with answers and I can also put my response. But this one sounds really silly, but it can be really profound. And I've said it before on the show, but talking out loud to yourself in the third person about the new idea that you want to have about yourself. When you do that, a part of your brain hears it that doesn't hear it when you just think it. So, if the new idea that you want to have is intermittent fasting is a lifestyle or I love my body, I love my weight. I am not dieting, you would say, it sounds crazy, but you can do it in the third person out loud. And you can say like, “Christine, we love your body. Christine, we love your weight. Christine, we're not dieting,” saying that out loud over and over can have a really actually profound effect on our brains, even though it might sound a little crazy.

Gin Stephens: That's a great strategy.

Melanie Avalon: It is. All right. Listeners, if you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can also follow us on iTunes, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe. Super helpful and it's supportive of the show as far as iTunes is the place to be. So, you can follow us on Instagram. I am @MelanieAvalon, Gin is @GinStephens. And, yeah, I think that's it.

Gin Stephens: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Bye.

Gin Stephens: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors.

You can also check out our other podcast, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, Gin's Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle, Feast Without Fear: Food and the Delay, Don't Deny Lifestyle and/or Gin's Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Clean Fast Protocol for Health, Longevity, and Weight Loss--Including the 21-Day FAST Start Guide

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Intermittent Fasting Stories

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com  

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Aug 16

Episode 174: Weight-loss Resistance, Fasting Mimicking Diet, Maintaining Metabolism, Alternate Day Fasting, Menopause And More!

Intermittent Fasting

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 174 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BiOptimizers: A Company Whose Mission Is To Fix Your Digestion! Get Their Full Spectrum Magnesium Supplement To Fix Your Magnesium Status, Containing All 7 Versions Of Magnesium! Go To www.magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save 10%

BLUBlox: Overexposure to blue light in our modern environments can lead to increased anxiety, stress, headaches, and other health conditions. Even a tiny exposure to artificial light can completely offset your circadian rhythm! Unlike many “blue light blocking” glasses on the market, BLUBlox provides glasses that block the exact blue wavelengths you need to regulate sleep, reduce anxiety, and much more! They also provide different types of glasses for the time of day, season, and your personal electronic and light exposure! Plus, for every BLUblox purchase, they donate a pair of glasses to someone in need! Go To bluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

 JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!!  Use The Link joovv.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST For A Free Gift!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:00 - BIOPTIMIZERS:  Go to www.magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast And Use Coupon IFPODCAST10 To Save 10% Today.

7:20 - Listener Q&A: Bronwyn - A Curly Question

24:15 - BLUBLOX: Go To BluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

26:00 - BEAUTY COUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

27:15 - Listener Q&A: Amy - Prolon FMD

Lumen Lovers: Biohack Your Carb And Fat Burning (With Melanie Avalon)

Stronger By Stress: Adapt To Beneficial Stressors To Improve Your Health And Strengthen The Body (Siim Land)

38:35 - JOOVV RED LIGHT THERAPY DEVICES:  Use The Link Joovv.com/IFPodcast With The Code IFPODCAST For A Free Gift!

40:15 - Listener Q&A: Jennifer - Menopause

The Fatburn Fix: Boost Energy, End Hunger, and Lose Weight by Using Body Fat for Fuel (Catherine Shanahan)

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, Gin's Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle, Feast Without Fear: Food and the Delay, Don't Deny Lifestyle and/or Gin's Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Clean Fast Protocol for Health, Longevity, and Weight Loss--Including the 21-Day FAST Start Guide

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Intermittent Fasting Stories

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com  

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

Aug 09

Episode 173: Food Addiction, Disordered Eating, Gaining Muscle Flexibility, 4h or 6h Windows, Breathing To Fight Anxiety, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 173 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHER BOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! Learn More And Place Your Order At ButcherBox.com/IFPODCAST

KOMUSO SHIFT: The vagus nerve INSTANTLY responds to both physical stress and emotional stress, like anxiety. Trying to regulate breathing during “fight or flight” mode is incredibly difficult, so having a tool to physically ground you is a game changer! The Komuso Shift was engineered to guide a longer exhale there by suppressing that fight or flight mode. This is the fundamental premise of the Komuso Shift. Get Yours Today At www.komusodesign.com And Use The Code IFPODCAST To Get 20% Off!!

FEALS: Feals makes CBD oil which satisfies ALL of Melanie's stringent criteria: it's premium, full spectrum, organic, tested, pure CBD in MCT oil! It's delivered directly to your doorstep. CBD supports the body's natural cannabinoid system, and can address an array of issues, from sleep to stress to chronic pain, and more! Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHER BOX: Learn More And Place Your Order At ButcherBox.com/IFPODCAST

3:00 - BEAUTY COUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

14:30 - KOMUSO SHIFT: Get Yours Today At www.komusodesign.com And Use The Code IFPODCAST To Get 20% Off!!

Daniel Tal (Lumen): Measure Your Carb Vs. Fat Burning, Hack Your Macros, Your Breath Signature, Low Carb Vs. Low Fat, Ketone Problems, Metabolic Flexibility, And More!

Lumen Lovers: Biohack Your Carb And Fat Burning (With Melanie Avalon)

23:35 - Listener Q&A: Graeme - Question of Food Addictions and IF

Glenn Livingston Ph. D.: Stop Overeating, Never Binge Again, Creating Food Plans, Reframe Food Cravings & Addictions, Restriction, Binge Recovery Tools, Your Inner Pig, And More!

Never Binge Again™: How Thousands of People Have Stopped Overeating and Binge Eating - and Stuck to the Diet of Their Choice! (By Reprogramming Themselves to Think Differently About Food.) (Glenn Livingston, PhD)

37:50 - FEALS: Go To https://feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

39:50 - Listener Q&A: Paige - My body is now more flexible?! 

47:05 - Listener Q&A: Renee - 4 vs 6 Hour Window

Effects of 4- and 6-h Time-Restricted Feeding on Weight and Cardiometabolic Health: A Randomized Controlled Trial in Adults with Obesity

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, Gin's Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle, Feast Without Fear: Food and the Delay, Don't Deny Lifestyle and/or Gin's Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Clean Fast Protocol for Health, Longevity, and Weight Loss--Including the 21-Day FAST Start Guide

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Intermittent Fasting Stories

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com  

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Aug 02

Episode 172: Circadian Rhythm Fasting, Medication Timing, Fatty Liver, Finding Quality Supplements, Inverse Cortisol Rhythm And More!

Intermittent Fasting

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 172 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BLUBlox: Overexposure to blue light in our modern environments can lead to increased anxiety, stress, headaches, and other health conditions. Even a tiny exposure to artificial light can completely offset your circadian rhythm! Unlike many “blue light blocking” glasses on the market, BLUBlox provides glasses that block the exact blue wavelengths you need to regulate sleep, reduce anxiety, and much more! They also provide different types of glasses for the time of day, season, and your personal electronic and light exposure! Plus, for every BLUblox purchase, they donate a pair of glasses to someone in need! Go To blublox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

BiOptimizers: A Company Whose Mission Is To Fix Your Digestion! Get Their Full Spectrum Magnesium Supplement To Fix Your Magnesium Status, Containing All 7 Versions Of Magnesium! Go To www.magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save Up To 40% Off Select Packages.

 JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! Use The Link joovv.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST For A Free Gift!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BLUBLOX: Go To BluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

3:00 - BEAUTY COUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

6:45 - Listener Q&A: Liza - Circadian Rhythm Fasting

Tara Youngblood: Body Temperature For Sleep, Morning Vs. Night People, The Dark Side Of Sleep Tracking, Circadian Rhythms, The Chilipad, And More!!

17:15 - BIOPTIMIZERS:  Go To www.magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save Up To 40% Off Select Packages.

19:50 - Listener Q&A: Mari - Medication During Fast?

Joel Greene Podcast Part 1: How To Reboot The Gut, Eat Cheesecake Without Gaining Weight, Amplify Any Fasting Protocol & Maximize Fat Loss.

Joel Greene Podcast Part 2: How To Reshape Fat Cells, Enhance Repair During Sleep, Target Your “Circaseptan Rhythms,” Build Young Muscle & Get Rid Of Old Muscle.

Serrapeptase!

30:30 - Listener Q&A: Juliana - Oversight of Quality of Supplements

Thorne, Pure Encapsulations

36:45 - Listener Q&A: Julie - Screwed Up Cortisol, Sleep, and IF

Episode 165: BluBlox’s Andy Mant, Cortisol, Weight Gain, Immunity, Circadian Rhythm, Night People, UV Exposure And More!

Dr. Daniel Amen: Rethinking Mental Illness, Brain Scans, Antidepressants, The Effects of COVID, Stress & Trauma, Pharmaceuticals Vs. Nutraceuticals, And More!

45:45 - JOOVV RED LIGHT THERAPY DEVICES:  Use The Link Joovv.com/IFPodcast With The Code IFPODCAST For A Free Gift!

47:25 - Listener Q&A: Lisa - Daytime, Cute, Blue-light Glasses?

BLUBLOX: Go To BluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, Gin's Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle, Feast Without Fear: Food and the Delay, Don't Deny Lifestyle and/or Gin's Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Clean Fast Protocol for Health, Longevity, and Weight Loss--Including the 21-Day FAST Start Guide

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Intermittent Fasting Stories

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com  

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jul 26

Episode 171: Alcohol Metabolism, Eating Large Meals Without Embarrassment, Limiting Fat, Eating For Your Genetics, Pickle Juice And More!

Intermittent Fasting

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 171 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! The Wait Is Over! Butcherbox Is Now Welcoming New Customers. Sign Up Today At Butcherbox.com/IFPODCAST To Get High-Quality Meat Delivered Directly To Your Door.

BiOptimizers: A Company Whose Mission Is To Fix Your Digestion! Get Their Full Spectrum Magnesium Supplement To Fix Your Magnesium Status, Containing All 7 Versions Of Magnesium! Go To Magbreakthrough.com/IFPODCAST And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save Up To 40% Off Select Packages.

 PREP DISH: Prep Dish is an awesome meal planning service which sends you weekly grocery and recipe lists, so you can do all your meal preparation at once, and be good to go for the week! It's perfect for the IF lifestyle! And better yet, the meals are all gluten free or Paleo, which is fantastic if you're already doing so, but also a wonderful way to "try out" gluten free or Paleo with delicious meals, and no feelings of restriction!! We can't recommend them enough!​ Get A Free 2 week trial At prepdish.com/ifpodcast!

 PREP DISH: Also Check Out PrepDish.com/pantry To Download An Awesome FREE Meal Plan For Freezer And Pantry Items!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHER BOX: Sign Up Today At ButcherBox.com/IFPODCAST To Get High-Quality Meat Delivered Directly To Your Door. 

2:55 - BEAUTY COUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

8:00 - Listener Feedback: Jana - Episode 138

10:30 - Listener Q&A: Josephine - Champagne + Restaurant meals!!!

Dry Farm Wines: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To DryFarmWines.com/IFPodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

19:40 - BIOPTIMIZERS:  Go To www.magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save Up To 40% Off Select Packages.

29:00 - Listener Q&A: Sara - SO confused about fat

IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life

Joe Cohen: Genetic Testing, CBD, Top Biohacks, Covid And Your Genes, Supplements, Biohack Regrets Iodine, Sensitive Butterflies, Early Vs. Late Night Eating, And More!

Get.selfdecode.com/melanieavalon

46:45 - PREP DISH: Free Subscription! Get a free 2 week trial At Prepdish.com/ifpodcast! You'll get weekly gluten-free and Paleo grocery and recipe lists!!

48:15 - Listener Q&A: Ana - Chlorophyll

Teri Cochrane: Protein Problems, Gluten, Glyphosate, Animal Stress, Wild Meat, The Importance Of Sweets, Serrapeptase, MTHFR, The Dark Side Of Enzymes, Fat Malabsorption, Amyloids, Juicing, And More!

53:00 - Listener Q&A: Amy - Really, No pickle juice?

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, Gin's Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle, Feast Without Fear: Food and the Delay, Don't Deny Lifestyle and/or Gin's Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Clean Fast Protocol for Health, Longevity, and Weight Loss--Including the 21-Day FAST Start Guide

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Intermittent Fasting Stories

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com  

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jul 19

Episode 170: Autophagy Deep Dive, Carnivore Diet, Loose Skin, IF & Breastfeeding, Using Ketosis The Right Way, Measuring Fat Burn And More!

Intermittent Fasting

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 170 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BiOptimizers: A Company Whose Mission Is To Fix Your Digestion! Take Charge Of Your Digestion With Masszymes - The Most Powerful Enzyme Support Available! Go To www.masszymes.com/ifpodcastfree To Get Your Free Bottle Of Masszymes!

BUTCHER BOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! Learn More And Place Your Order At ButcherBox.com/IFPODCAST!

JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! Use The Link joovv.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST For A Free Gift!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BIOPTIMIZERS: Take Charge Of Your Digestion With Masszymes - The Most Powerful Enzyme Support Available! Go To www.masszymes.com/ifpodcastfree To Get Your Free Bottle Of Masszymes!

IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life

Dr. Dave Rabin (Apollo Neuro): Stop Stress With Sound Wave Therapy, The Power Of Safety, Healing Hugs, Combatting Fear, Parasympathetic Vs Sympathetic States, Making Change, Flow States, And More!

Get 15% Off Apollo Neuro At Apolloneuro.com/melanieavalon

10:40 - Listener Q&A: Regine - Journal Of Proteomics IF study and Question about Accessing Fat Stores

Intermittent fasting from dawn to sunset for 30 consecutive days is associated with anticancer proteomic signature and upregulates key regulatory proteins of glucose and lipid metabolism, circadian clock, DNA repair, cytoskeleton remodeling, immune system and cognitive function in healthy subjects

21:50 - Listener Q&A: Jamie - Carnivore/Keto

Dr. Shawn Baker: The Carnivore Diet, Reversing Chronic Health Conditions, How Meat Made Us Human,Vitamin C, Brain Size And Intelligence, Optimal Health, And More!

Paul Saladino, MD: The Carnivore Diet, Plant Toxins, Antioxidants, Curing Disease, Inflammation, Hormetic Stress, Fiber, Animal Protein, Alkalinity, Sodium, Fruit, Saturated Fat, Sperm Quality, Longevity, And More!

24:20 - BUTCHER BOX: Learn More And Place Your Order At ButcherBox.com/IFPODCAST!

25:30 - JOOVV RED LIGHT THERAPY DEVICES:  Use The Link Joovv.com/IFPodcast With The Code IFPODCAST For A Free Gift!

28:10 - Listener Q&A: Dayna - Autophagy for someone with not much weight to lose

BEAUTY COUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

41:45 - Listener Q&A: Amy - Ketosis In IF

Daniel Tal (Lumen): Measure Your Carb Vs. Fat Burning, Hack Your Macros, Your Breath Signature, Low Carb Vs. Low Fat, Ketone Problems, Metabolic Flexibility, And More!

Get $50 Off A Lumen Device At MelanieAvalo​n.c​​​​​​​​​​​om/Lumen With The Code melanieavalon

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, Gin's Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle, Feast Without Fear: Food and the Delay, Don't Deny Lifestyle and/or Gin's Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Clean Fast Protocol for Health, Longevity, and Weight Loss--Including the 21-Day FAST Start Guide

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Intermittent Fasting Stories

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com  

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

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