Episode 390: Fasting For Athletic Performance, Ketosis, Overeating, Food Choice, Improving Satiety, Crash Dieting, Homeschooling, Preschool, And More!
Welcome to Episode 390 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
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To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!
SHOW NOTES
LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!
International society of sports nutrition position stand: ketogenic diets
Listener Q&A: Brittany - Why am I not losing?
Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 390 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 390 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. And for listeners, Vanessa and I were just chatting beforehand, and I was so intrigued that I was like, we should start recording so people can hear this. So you are thinking or are going to start homeschooling?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, we've been planning it for a while, and this is it. It's happening now, so it's almost September. I traditionally always started school in September, so I'm starting his preschool program, so Luca’s three. So he basically has three years until he would start school officially. So he's in the preschool years now. So I am starting with him in a few weeks, his first day of school, his first year of school. I'm trying to get him starting to warm up to the idea that he's starting school. A lot of his friends already go to school. A lot of his friends, some of his friends are starting school soon, so I want him to also have that first day of school feeling, and just getting everything ready. So I have the whole year's curriculum already set to go and everything. I'm just, I was telling you, I'm ordering all the books. So each unit that we have, you basically go through different things, like the first unit we're doing is apples. So there's lots of things related to the letter A and apples, and then you have to get all these different books to go with it. So I was ordering all the books, and I was like looking at the book list, and there's 190 books that I need to get for his first year. 190? Yeah, because there's basically a different book. One for every letter. Yeah, there's one for, so there's 19 modules. We cover all 26 letters. We're gonna be learning a lot about letters this year. Not so much like math, although I will personally add in some math, because he loves numbers. But it's not really about full -on academics yet, because he's only three. At this age, so I've been learning a lot about homeschool in the last months, because we're planning to do it with our children. As long as it's working out, like we're gonna test it with preschool, see how it goes, and if we can keep up with it, we'll keep going with it. But I'm basically learning to become a teacher at the same time as doing all the other stuff that I'm doing, but what's interesting about it, and I think what makes it workable is if you look at their ages, how much time you actually spend in the whole day doing class. And we have some good friends who do it, and for their teenagers, they do about three to four hours of full -on class, and the rest of the day, they can go, because they live in Puerto Rico, they can go to the beach, and they can go, or they can go work on their side businesses, or they can go do all this stuff. For someone Luca's age, it's about 30 minutes. So what I'm doing with him right now is preparing him, so we do a lot of reading aloud in the morning, and then he does some basic stuff, like coloring different types of fruits or dinosaurs, and then we count after how many, like it's really basic stuff, but yeah, I'm ordering all the books, and it's pretty fun, and we're getting all the school supplies, which is my number one favorite thing to do. When I was a kid, when we had to go get school supplies and go to the art supply store, it was the biggest high for me ever.
Melanie Avalon:
So, oh my goodness, like the moments. Okay, wait, cause you grew up like all over. Where were you during that phase of your life?
Vanessa Spina:
i was always in the same school system though so up until grade nine i was in a french lisa which is a french private school and i stayed in that system everywhere i went and then in grade nine i switch to the international school system which is an american curriculum and then i stayed in that in beijing and in the philippines so i was doing like a same similar curriculum to what people were doing in the us it was the same but the french school that i went to they had so many school supplies it was insane how many supplies we had to get so we would go i remember specifically being in canada to your question when we were doing this and we would go to a couple different art stores and just get everything like there were just so many supplies and so many fresh notebooks and we had even we had these like architecture classes that we would get these special stylo pens for and everything and i yeah i just loved it i loved all the school supplies the fresh books i think probably most kids like that
Melanie Avalon:
I think like the best moment was, okay, so did they have Crayola, like the brand of crayons? Yes. Oh yeah. I got that for Luca also too. Okay. So like the moment of like, how many crayons do you get? Like, do you get the one with the sharpener in it that has like all the crayons? Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
I just love all that stuff, so it's fun to deal with him.
Melanie Avalon:
I would be so stressed because inevitably, with the list, we would just go to like Target or Walmart, but there would always be like something I didn't have from the list. And I would be so stressed about it. My mom would be like, Melanie, you don't have to have everything on the first day. And I would be like a wreck like this, like every year. I'm so rules oriented.
Vanessa Spina:
No, that's how I feel right now because it's harder to find supplies here because we don't have Target or Michaels or anything. So I have to go to these little shops, which is like, okay, that's the fun thing about Europe, right? They don't have those big box stores. They have all these cute little shops, but you have to go to all these little shops and all the little shops are really expensive because they're little shops. So I went to this one store and they had pipe cleaners and these fluffy balls. Both are on the list of what I need to get and they were like $20, it's like, okay. So I'm trying to order some stuff right now to my mother -in -law because she's coming soon. So I'm like, I feel really bad. I messaged her today. I was like, I've got like 20 books, I need you to bring in your suitcase, but I only got the paperback versions of everything, not the board books, which are extremely heavy. And then I managed to find about a third of the books on Kindle Unlimited, which I have a subscription to. So it's not going to be as tactile as having the actual book, but at least I have the book and we can put it on my iPad so it'll have color and stuff. Yeah, I'm nervous. I'm very like nervous about it because I'm nervous about his whole homeschooling journey. But I'm starting to, on Saturday, actually, we're meeting up with a group of other moms who also have three -year -olds who are doing homeschooling. So I think having more community will definitely help because there's a lot of online community. I have found so much online community. The homeschooling community has grown to something like five million children now are homeschooled because it exploded during COVID. And so there's so many resources, there's so much free resources like Khan Academy. And we just did, Khan Academy just had a summer camp, which I did with Luca, and it was really fun. They had Space Week and Science Week and Animals Week and stuff, and he really liked that stuff. So the community is huge and it's really growing. And I can understand why it's growing also, especially because there's lots of strange things happening in schools these days and not so safe things. So I think a lot of people are wanting to go that route more and more.
Melanie Avalon:
I wanted to be homeschooled so bad. Oh, really? Yeah, because I wanted to be acting. So I wanted to be homeschooling and doing community theater.
Vanessa Spina:
Get a private tutor kind of thing.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Well, I just, I really wanted to do community theater and do day shows. Yep. Instead I was, I went to private school. I would do community theater, but then it's like in the evening. So, but, oh wow, that's exciting. So if you actually do him the whole, like the kids the whole way through, then it'll be, that'll be a lot of time, right?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it'll grow. It's going to be easier now. I can do it in the mornings, but a lot of times my mornings are when I prep for podcasting and my interviews. So I'm a little nervous about how it's all going to work. But I think especially like the first year, you know, preschool is going to be okay. And then I think at some point I'll have to make a decision. Like, do I keep doing this? Do I scale back professionally or do we send him to school? And there's some wonderful schools here. You know, in Prague, there's some really wonderful schools, you know, that could be an option. But I think if we can, you know, we want to make it happen. So we'll see how it goes and how it works. And we definitely he has so much, he has so many like friend groups and play groups and stuff. So he gets a ton of social interaction. I think that's the main thing people worry about, you know, when you homeschool. He's not just like at home with us all the time. Like he has a lot of interaction with other kids, but it's going to be interesting to see how this year goes and see, you know, how if he's able to do it. So it'll be a good test for all of us. I would love to be able to do all of it, but we'll see.
Melanie Avalon:
Cool. Well, I applaud you. I cannot do any of that. So that's amazing.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean, they're so special to us. And I know everyone's children, you know, are special to them, but we really want to spend as much time with them as we can as well. So homeschooling, I think, helps accomplish that. But whether or not it's feasible and manageable with both of us having professional careers as well, we'll see. Podcasting and the way that my work is definitely helps a lot with it. But that's really cute that you wanted to be homeschooled.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, yep, I really did. I think I like seriously considered it, like I think my parents considered it at one point.
Vanessa Spina:
When I was growing up, it was like, it was kind of like kids who were homeschooled were a little bit ostracized. Like I remember going to girl guides. I don't know if that's what we called it in Canada, like girl scouts. Girl guides? Oh, okay. And in my girl scouts/girl guides, there were some girls who were homeschooled and everyone was like, those are the girls who are homeschooled, you know? It's like, they probably were super cool. But you know, like people were weird about it when I was a kid. I think it's probably less a stigma now.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I'm so disconnected from the schooling system now. I think that was the vibe, but I just wanted to do it and I knew I would have my community theater people.
Vanessa Spina:
Well, a lot of times you register, like usually the regulations are you register with a local school, you meet with them and we go over the curriculum and then they go in for testing. So that's a good way that you can like make sure that they're on track with, you know, what they're supposed to be learning.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I know nothing. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. And people are interested in it. It's really neat how many resources there are these days. Super cool. Yeah. What else is new in your life? Are you getting some fresh school supplies with these?
Melanie Avalon:
Literally, the only time, the only time I'm aware that school, I forget that school is like, I forget about like that age group of kids because they're like in school during the day. Yeah, I like don't see them. The only time I see them is when summer hits and I see them like around, I'm like, oh, that generation, I forgot about them. And then, but I see like school supply section and like Target and it makes me so happy and I want to go buy like folders. I actually did just order all these Lisa Frank folders. I love the Lisa Frank when I was little. I was like, I need some happy folders in my life. So I have this like sparkly unicorn Lisa Frank folder that I got on eBay for way too much money because it's probably like vented.
Vanessa Spina:
I just got like a unicorn colored one. It's like a shiny. I don't know what that color is
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my gosh, do we have the same one? Mine's shiny. Is it texture shiny? Is it textured? Does it have a deer in the background?
Vanessa Spina:
some frogs. I don't think they have Luca Frank here, but it's like that. I don't know what that color is, but you know what it kind of is like shiny like a unicorn or like a hologram, like silvery pink and purple. I don't know what that color is.
Melanie Avalon:
like iridescent. Yeah, iridescent. I sent you a picture of my Lisa Frank unicorn. There's like little rabbits and ducks and frogs.
Vanessa Spina:
an owl. That takes me right back to when I was little and I wanted all the Lisa Frank things. Lisa Frank.
Melanie Avalon:
was amazing. Yeah. I'm glad it's still around. You have to get on eBay and I think it literally said vintage folder. I don't know. These people were ahead of their times. They were like, someday these folders are gonna be worth something. Yeah. So I'm good. Just quick updates. I thought I was about to release my EMF blocking headphones and then I was... I have not gotten the rose gold ones to the place I want them to be at. So we're working on them still for manufacturing. So, but I'm wearing mine right now. And in the supplement world, I don't want to say it too early because I don't want to jinx it, but I'm hoping to launch digestive enzymes in the fall. So we shall see. I'll update more as I feel more secure about the timeline of that. Yeah, I'm really excited. So people can get all the updates for that at avalonx .us/email list. Oh, also friends, check out my new podcast, The Mind Blown Podcast with Scott Emmons. We are having the time of our lives talking about so many fun, different topics, things like the Dyatlov Pass incident and the Cecil Hotel in LA and the Mandela fact, and then random listicles like... things that vanish that you didn't realize are no longer around and it's just, we're having, it's, it's a really fun show. So it's called the mind blown podcast. So definitely check that out. Okay. Shall we jump into some fasting things? Yeah. Sounds great. So to start things off, I found another fun fasting review that we can discuss. This was called intermittent fasting. Does it affect sports performance? A systemic review. So this was a review published in nutrients in January of 2024. And it looked at studies from 2013 until today. I liked that they actually picked a start date. Like they didn't look at any studies ever because they were saying that around that time is when studies started coming out more about this, but it looked at 25 articles and the people in these studies, so that when you combine them all together, it was mostly athletes, but if not athletes, it was people who were physically active. Most of the studies, the people were practicing a 16 eight approach to fasting. So fasting 16 hours and then eating in an eight hour time window. A few of them were Ramadan, which ended up being 14 eight. So fasting for 14 hours and then eating in an eight hour window. And then one study wasn't quote overnight fast, which I, I actually have to look at the specifics of that because I'm not sure what that entails. What they found, they were looking in particular at how intermittent fasting, I mean, you can guess from the title, how it affects sport performance, their overall takeaway, which was super nice to hear it was that it's beneficial for body composition, does not reduce physical performance, does maintain lean body mass and does improve maximum power. And this actual different types of performance they were looking at were all over the board. So it was like cycling tests and sprint tests and treadmill tests. They also looked at stress tests on the different participants. Some were on interval training. Eight of the studies looked at muscle strength and endurance tests as well as peak power performance and average power. So going back again to what they were, what they found with the body composition. So they found in general that intermittent fasting did lead to a reduction in body weight and that that was beneficial for exercise performance. They said, I found this was interesting. So they said intermittent fasting could be considered an adequate nutritional strategy to reduce body fat percentage to an adequate number for athletes specifically. So that's between six to 12% body fat for men and 12 to 18% body fat for women. And then during that maintain lean muscle mass, which is just so, so important. They did note that, and we talked a little bit about this last week, but they did note that the inevitable calorie restriction that results from intermittent fasting is probably a key factor in these beneficial effects and exercise performance, even if it's not intentional. So basically people tend to non -voluntarily reduce their calorie restriction, even if they're not being told to in the study. So it tended to be around 10 to 20% per week, that people would just naturally reduce their, their calories, which as we've talked about a lot on this show is one of the amazing things about fasting that you can do calorie restriction without feeling like you're doing it and kind of just do it naturally, which is very, very cool. Other health things that they found were really important for exercise performance in general. So improved insulin sensitivity, reduced inflammation and strengthening of the immune system, which they were talking about was pretty important for preventing injury and also for recovery. So on the inflammation front, they found some of the studies showed that intermittent fasting activates a lot of mechanisms that enhance the immune system in general. So these are things like interleukin six going down in the fasting group and up in the normal group, which is an inflammatory cytokine. So it's nice to see that going down and especially with something like exercise, because we know that exercise is an inflammatory process for the body. So it's nice to have a, an anti -inflammatory response to that in general as well. Fasting had a beneficial effect on C -reactive protein, which can also indicate inflammation levels. And in particular, that was in a study and people who were fasting for Ramadan and it was football players. And there were actually two studies about that. And then this is interesting. So one of the probably key metabolic factors affected by fasting that could be having a really beneficial effect on performance is a specific hormone called adiponectin. So it's actually a hormone, it's affected by our circadian rhythm. So our, when we're asleep, when we're awake, and it's also affected by when, when we eat or not, and when we fast. And it is really important because low levels of it are associated with obesity, oxidative stress, and insulin resistance, which is not good. Higher levels are associated with insulin, insulin sensitivity, specifically in our fat tissue, which is awesome. So fasting seems to be a way to actually boost levels of adiponectin. So that might be having something with the, something might be going on there with the performance. And then something they did note was there weren't really intense negative side effects, except for some of the Ramadan studies, but they were positing that could be related to other things because Ramadan is a dry fast. So it could have been due to like electrolyte imbalance and other factors surrounding Ramadan in particular, not necessarily intermittent fasting per se. So what they ultimately concluded was they said that the heterogeneous samples make it difficult to have a definitive conclusion, but the data is favorable and could be recommended to follow intermittent fasting without reducing performance and athletes. So I really liked this review because, you know, we get so many questions about fasting and exercise performance and muscle and endurance. And it's, you know, nice to see that in general, intermittent fasting seems to pair very, very well with, with all types of exercise. So Vanessa, do you have thoughts?
Vanessa Spina:
I thought that was such an amazing summary of everything. I love the findings in it. You know, I love that it showed that it definitely did not have any deleterious effects on muscle mass and it helps with body re -composition and that that's definitely, you know, what drew, what was part of what drew me to it, you know, knowing that, and that you can safely do it without, you know, risking any of your muscle or your performance. It's really interesting too, because the International Society of Sports Nutrition recently came out with a position stand on ketogenic diets. I wonder if they did also an intermittent fasting, but they basically said that with ketogenic diets, it's basically neutral to negative. The key point is that it's neutral and not all of the research that they used had athletes who were fat adapted. So that's a big problem with studies on ketogenic athletes is they're not fat adapted or they'll, they'll do a crossover study. They'll get them to do it one way, be filled from carbs or fat, but it takes at least four to eight weeks to become fat adapted for your body to adapt and become really fuel efficient, you know, running on fat. But anyway, they basically officially stated that it was neutral and there's some other interesting researchers. So I think I think people are coming around to the idea that these strategies doesn't have to be necessarily negative. I think the main risk for athletes with ketogenic diets or intermittent fasting is under fueling. And I think that that does cause critiques. Because, you know, when you are an athlete, you need a lot of energy. And so if you are doing intermittent fasting, people tend to eat less, people tend to also eat less calories when they're doing keto. So I think that is something to pay attention to for athletes is to is to not under fuel because that could affect performance or it could affect someone's cycle. And that's usually where the critiques of it come in.
Melanie Avalon:
Wow, thank you for sharing that. The problem, like you were mentioning, I think, with a lot of these studies on keto is because of how long it takes people often to adapt. And so it's harder to draw definitive conclusions from a shorter term study, which the really intense randomized controlled trials tend to be on the shorter side. Yeah, it'd be nice if there are more study. And maybe there are, but it'd be nice if there are more studies where they study people already on ketogenic diets, so then they're like already fat adapted, and then start the study. That'd be really nice.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so Dr. Philip Prince, he did one of those with Dr. Andrew Kootenick. I just interviewed Andrew last week and Dr. Philip Prince, my episode with him came out a few weeks ago and they also found that it was neutral. So that's the big finding is like, okay, so there could be some sports where you might get a slight advantage from being fat fueled because there are activities where if you are at 60 to 70% of your VO2 max, which is the maximum amount of oxygen that you can utilize during exercise. If you're fueled from fat, you could have a bit of an advantage here. That's what is sort of, I've always thought, and some people also think, but the main finding they had was that it's not a negative. So you can basically choose, if you're an athlete, to be fueled from carbs, to be fueled from fat, you are going to get similar results. And I think that it does two things. First of all, it challenges the negative viewpoint that people have on doing sport and not being super high carb, which is like a big critique that people who are always favoring carbs for athleticism, like you're going to have an advantage if you're carb fueled, et cetera. So not only do you not necessarily have an advantage from having carbs in your diet, but also being fat fueled is not going to negatively impact you. And I think just that says a lot. And I think that that's ultimately what I think we should all be sort of, the way that we should be looking at different dietary approaches when it comes to carbs, high carb, high fat, and this is something you and I talk about all the time, it's like choose your own adventure with your fuel, just prioritize protein and your outcome, whether it's fat loss or sports performance is probably going to be the same because they're just energy. They're just different forms of energy. You know, one may keep your insulin lower, as we talked about, but another approach might keep your insulin higher, but then you're not eating fat. So they have their different effects on the body, but physiologically, it's basically a wash, like whichever route you choose. And I think that's sort of a theme that we're seeing, whether it comes to fat loss or sports performance, you know, it's really the same and it's logical to me. I think you can achieve great results with different approaches. They have their advantages. Although the ISSN did say that although keto may be neutral, it is better for fat loss. That's interesting. They said it is better for fat loss. And I think that's sort of something that I've, you know, definitely known for a while. I do think it can be better for fat loss, but I think that is primarily because yet you do it's not so much about the fact that you get into a fat burning state because we can go back and forth on all the different mechanisms that are happening. I think it's just that people eat less when they're eating more protein and a little bit more fat, but it depends on the person, right? Because some people could also overeat that way potentially. When did that come out? Recently, yes. And I had the lead investigator on that who was Alex Leaf. I just had him on the podcast. That episode I think is coming out in a couple of weeks. By the time this is out, it'll probably be out. But my most interesting thing from that paper to me was that there's something called post -exercise ketosis. And I started testing this in myself and I did a workout. We did like a three hour hike last weekend and I had had a small breakfast, really small, but I had had breakfast, so I was not in the fasted state. And when we got home, I checked my ketones and I was in ketosis. And he was talking about this post -exercise ketosis because athletes use so much energy. A lot of athletes are in ketosis a lot more than they realize. It's also interesting.
Melanie Avalon:
Wow, I wish we could have a continuous ketone monitor like the way we have a continuous glucose monitor.
Vanessa Spina:
They're definitely coming and continuous insulin monitor would be amazing too.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I know I'm continuous. I think like lactate might be coming as well. I'm right now I'm listening to the Peter T as episode. Are you about lactate?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I've just been focusing on lactate a lot recently because I had Kristy Strohstruck. Her episode came out on my podcast yesterday and she's studying lactate right now. She's doing a big study on that. So yeah, it was interesting timing. And she was a mentee of Dr. Dom D 'Agostino. And I remember a few years ago, he kept bringing up lactate. And he was like, I think in the future, a lot of people are going to be looking at lactate, which is like, interesting that he knew that.
Melanie Avalon:
It was a long time ago when I first got interested in lactate and I had maybe not quite as predict the as Dom, but we're thinking like there's something here like this is interesting like it's that it's such a solid fuel for the mitochondria and we don't ever really talk about it much. Short term of course awesome well thank you for sharing all that I love that you interview all these researchers and can share all this information it's so helpful so fascinating.
Vanessa Spina:
for geeks like us. I love to geek out on this. I love that you appreciate it. But yeah, it's a great study and I'm glad we opened the episode with it. Awesome.
Melanie Avalon:
awesome. So, I do wonder with these studies in general with systemic reviews and meta -analyses, I wonder, like, could it have gone a different way? Like, could they have done the same title, intermittent fasting? Does it affect sports performance and systemic review? And just pick different filter criteria for the studies they picked and then pad different conclusions. I agree and I love the results, but I always, with all systemic reviews, everywhere, I wonder this. I'm like, how much do I act? Like, how do I even know, you know, what to trust and what not to trust? It'll be interesting to see the future of studies and how AI can help with that a little bit, like reanalyzing data and things like that.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because Harvard just released a paper. They went back and reanalyzed the data showing that eating red meat increases mortality. Oh, what did it find? They found that it increases your lifespan by 6%. Oh, my gosh. See? Yeah, that just came out on the weekend. Oh, man. That's amazing.
Melanie Avalon:
Mm -hmm. It makes you wonder. It makes me wonder, yeah. Oh, what I really wonder about is, say, in another universe, what if all the studies were published that were done? Because, you know, so many are, like, not published because they, like, don't get the outcome they want or, for whatever reason, they have to stop it because of whatever, whatever. Like, if everything ever was published, I wonder what would look a little bit different. Definitely. Thanks to Ponder. Shall we answer some listener questions? Yes, I'd love to. All right. Would you like to read?
Vanessa Spina:
Britney's question. Yes. So our first question comes to us from Britney subject. Why am I not losing? Hi, I've been doing if for about two months now, I do an 18 six every day and I'm super strict about sticking to my 2pm to 8pm window. But I haven't lost any weight in three weeks. In fact, I'm up to pounds. I've also been super hungry in these last three weeks. Am I not eating the right foods? Do I need to be more strict about eating clean? I thought the beauty of IF was that in my window, I didn't have to be as strict on what I eat. Is this the problem? Would you please email me if you answer my question as I am new to the pod and playing catch up. Thanks, Brit.
Melanie Avalon:
Awesome, Brittany. Thank you for your question. So sorry that we did not email back, although I think when people email us, they get an auto response, but we're answering it now. So I feel like this is one of the questions about intermittent fasting. One of the foundational issues to address, which is basically, yes, the beauty of IF in general is that you can make these changes and often see weight loss, beneficial effects without changing what you're eating. That said, you might need to adjust what you're eating. And if you're asking the question, not always, but often, if you're asking the question, that probably is the answer. So you're being really, really strict about your time, your two to eight. So you're not really making any adjustments to what you're eating. And there can be a ton of magic if you change what you're eating. And it doesn't have to be crazy. You don't have to completely change your diet and be really intense and all of those things. But if you haven't made any adjustments at all to what you're eating, there's so much magic in just changing the types of foods that you're eating. And it doesn't have to even be restrictive. So rather than cutting out things, you could just have a paradigm shift where if you're eating processed foods, for example, maybe you just switched to eating whole foods only. So real foods in their real form. That can be magical. Or you could try a macro approach, like we've been talking about, like lower carb and or I guess not and lower carb or lower fat. But if you've been going three weeks and gaining weight, and I'm assuming we have to ask about body composition. So is this fat that you're gaining or is it possible that you're gaining muscle? That could be a possibility. Sounds like intuitively, that's probably not the case because I feel like you probably might be picking up on that. But that's the first question is what type of weight are you gaining? But I actually I am sort of haunted by this question a little bit because I've just been getting it for years and years and years, which is fasting is supposed to do all the magic by itself. So why do we have to change what we're eating? You can still eat enough in a small eating window to, you know, at the very least, make fasting, not give you the results that you're looking for. So I would just encourage a lot of mindset shifts here. Also the fact just to wait just to touch on it really quickly, you said that you're super hungry. So what basically what you're doing is probably not working. You said am I not eating the right foods? I would really, really look at the foods. So focusing on protein, like we talk about all the time, that might be a good place to start. So starting with protein could be a really, really great place to start. There will be a ton of magic for a lot of people if you make that the focus of your meal and then fill out beyond there. I would actually, I would probably start with that. Like try going on a whole foods form of protein approach and see what happens. And maybe because, you know, you're being so strict about your fasting window, maybe taking some of the stress around that and shifting some of the focus to the food choices. I just think there's a lot of potential here, but I'm really haunted by this question, Vanessa, because it does feel contradictory. You know, we often talk about fasting, doing all the magic by itself, but then also sometimes people need to adjust their food choices. What are your thoughts on that?
Vanessa Spina:
So I definitely agree. I think if what you're doing is leaving you hungry and not getting results, then I would definitely change up your macros and a good starting place. If you haven't done this already is using a tracking app and setting your grams of protein first. So you could do one gram of protein per pound of ideal body weight and just use that as a starting place and try to hit that every day and try to eat your protein first or at least every meal that you have in your eating window, especially the first one, try to hit at least like 35 to 40 grams of protein at your first meal. And it'll go a long way to making sure that you feel satisfied and not thinking about food. Protein is the game changer when it comes to feeling high levels of satiety, not feeling hungry, not thinking about food. I mean, it can also be other micronutrients, but protein really is the biggest macro because you have to get protein every day from exogenous sources, sources outside of your body, because we have nine essential amino acids your body cannot make on its own. So you have to get those from food sources every day. And most people tend to feel hungry until they get their protein needs met. So usually feeling hungry after you've had meals is because your body is trying to get more protein. So if it signals hunger, it knows if you eat something else, it might get some more protein. So that's just the, this is the concept of protein leverage and it's been proven in an incredible amount of research showing animals, humans, even insects will forage and look for food until we have our protein needs met. So if you get that out of the way, you prioritize protein. It goes a long way to helping with satiety. It also secretes a lot of satiety hormones like GLP one CCK it signals leptin, which helps you to feel fuller. And it also signals a few other satiety hormones that work on the brain. Some of them like GLP one are secreted in the gut and others have effects on the brain like leptin. So it is really powerful for hunger. I love the whole foods recommendation. Whole foods are higher in micronutrients, higher in fiber. Fiber is also something that makes you feel full for longer and it helps you also to, you know, maintain a caloric deficit so that you can get the fat loss that you're looking for while not feeling hungry all the time. So I would definitely try that out and see how it goes. I mean, that's definitely my, my top recommendation when it comes to achieving some body re -composition, some fat loss and also feeling satisfied ketones can also really help. So if you've ever considered keto, that's another option. Like we were just saying the ISSN just said it's the best diet for fat loss. So it's a great way to boost your metabolic flexibility, tap into your fat stores, become fat fueled. And that means that once you set your protein target, you can either temporarily do a lower protein amount, which is going to be probably closer to half a gram of protein per pound. And then having a restricted amount of carbs for a few weeks and filling in a little bit more of the calories from healthy fats that can really help get you going, especially if you know you've been stalled or kind of not, you said you gained a couple of pounds, so it hasn't really been going the way that you want. So the advantage with keto is ketones also are huge in terms of satiety. So you have the protein, which gives you the thermic effect of protein. You have the ketones, all of these things really help with satiety. And it sounds like that's something that you've been struggling with. So those are some different ideas you could try out for sure.
Melanie Avalon:
I love that. Thank you so much. And it's so interesting. I it blows my mind to think about, and I guess I used to be this way, people who haven't realized the importance of protein with satiety. Like I would be so hungry. If I didn't eat a high protein diet, I would be so hungry, like so hungry. And it's really magical, you know, when people realize just how satiating it is. Do you have esoteric thoughts on like this concept of, you know, we say fasting is all you have to do, but then people do need to change what they're eating.
Vanessa Spina:
I remember listening back to the podcast when you were hosting with Jin and I remember that being a big emphasis, especially from Jin, that you can just eat whatever you want and do this fasting throughout the day and you will lose weight. But fundamentally, the intermittent fasting is helping create a caloric deficit. You can either create a caloric deficit through doing exercise and burning more calories or through eating less calories. That's really the only way you create a caloric deficit is those two ways. By having an eating window and a fasting window, you're creating a caloric deficit, but it's much easier and a lot of research supports that the compliance is much higher when people do caloric restriction with this fasting window. I think part of that is probably some level of like ketosis people get into towards the end of the fast and those ketones help suppress appetite. A lot of people are not hungry in the morning too, so it makes sense to delay your first meal a little bit unless you wake up ravenous, which that's only happened to me a couple times in my life, like when I was during breastfeeding, like around pregnancy. Other times, I don't wake up ravenous. I usually am ravenous for coffee, but that's about it. I think the ketosis is probably what helps people get through the fasting period, but it's a much easier way of doing caloric restriction. Maybe it feels like magic because of the ketones, because ketones are magical molecules to me. They are something that humans are designed to produce in terms of how our physiology is because we've always historically went for periods of time without food and could very easily tap into our fat stores and create ketones for brain fuel, but your cognition also really improves when you're in ketosis, which is a nice side effect. I think why people feel so good and so energetic and their brains are really well -fueled when they're fasting throughout the day. I don't know. I think that's probably what I would attribute the magic to, but I never really was a big fan of the concept of just fasting all day and then just eating whatever you want and getting results because that to me is more akin to a crash diet. Some people may get results on that on the scale, but if you're truly assessing the quality of that fat loss, a lot of research shows that crash diets have upwards of 40% lean body mass being lost. You're stepping on the scale, seeing the number go down, but close to half of that is muscle or lean mass, so you're going to end up in a worse position after because you're going to have less lean body mass, which is that metabolically active tissue that helps you have a higher metabolic rate. I'm not in favor of those kinds of crash diets where people just restrict calories but just eat whatever they want and that not being whole foods, being more hyper palatable processed foods. The other reason I don't like that, not only does it affect body composition quite poorly, but it also makes people really hungry because I think most people don't know that hyper palatable processed foods are designed to leave you unsatisfied and craving more. They are not just designed to taste amazing, they're designed to make you feel like you need more, so you buy more of them. They're not designed to make you feel satisfied, protein is, and whole foods are, like with lots of fiber and lots of micronutrients, but processed foods are not, they're designed to leave you wanting. I think if people knew that, if more people really knew that those foods leave you unsatisfied and just starting to frame it that way in your head, like, what do I eat that makes me feel satisfied versus what do I eat that leaves me unsatisfied and then making your choices based on that, I think most people would want to feel satisfied and get on with their day rather than just having a momentary bliss that makes you wanting more at the end.
Melanie Avalon:
And I could not agree more. And related to that, we had an episode a few episodes ago with Dr. Naomi Parela at the Xero app. And it was interesting, something that you said reminded me of this, because we talked about GLP -1 inhibitors and like Ozimpic and semiglutide. She was talking about how when you're on those, for example, you like it completely kills people's appetite. So they're not eating, but it actually creates a high insulin state. So people are in this super severely calorie restricted state, but their insulin is high, so they can't really tap into fat. So then they're just losing muscle. And that's why people on those drugs, it's really, really important that they are on a high protein diet and creating muscle synthesis, signaling through protein, exercise, things like that. Because so many people on those drugs are losing a ton of weight, but it's a lot of muscle loss, not fat loss, which is really, really scary. And then they come out of it having lost muscle, not fat, and it's kind of like you're worse off than before. Something you said, remind me of that. I think you were talking about the type of fat that people lose or the type of weight people lose. The quality of the weight loss, yes.
Vanessa Spina:
the quality of the weight loss. That is the biggest problem. And unfortunately, those, a lot of the people who are taking osempic are the people who are not eating protein and doing resistance training. So they're not getting that muscle protein synthesis signaling because it's like a lot
Melanie Avalon:
of people who what they're, and I don't want to make blanket statements, but it is a lot of people who have not found the dietary approach that works for them. Like what they're doing is not working. So presumably they're probably not, they're probably not doing the things we talk about all the time on here because if they were doing that, that would probably be working. And I don't want to make blanket statements, but in general, you know, in general it's probably a lot of people who have not tried the things that actually would work. So then they just go on these drugs and then lose their appetite, don't eat the food. But then also, I thought that was so interesting though, because it's kind of like being in the facet state, except the opposite with like high insulin. So it's a really scary metabolic state to be in. We shall see. It's interesting though, because they do seem to have a lot of other potentially beneficial effects like helping people with addictions and things like that. And I'm really intrigued by the whole thing. Are they a big thing over there?
Vanessa Spina:
there in Prague? I don't know. Like, I mean, no one I know, no one that I know is digging them. I've had some friends here recently start carnivore. I've had some friends get into CGM's and not through me, this is just through other people that they follow, but no one that I know of. But I mean, in general, I don't know if it's a thing here. I think people in Europe are generally more metabolically fit, not in the UK. I've seen that. But in Europe, people are a lot more lean. And a lot of people walk everywhere. Like, it's quite, I would say, a lot of people are very, most people are very athletic, and it's rare to see someone in public that you would think, wow, that person is obese or morbidly obese. So I mean, it's not that they don't exist here, they're definitely are metabolic issues, because there's a lot of like bread and beer and definitely, you know, consumption of processed foods as well. But people in general, I think are so active, that, you know, there's just less like car driving and less convenience. So I think those, there's maybe a little bit less of those like Western comforts in terms of how people get around. And there's more of a traditional diet, like people eat more protein, they eat more organ meats. I don't know, we've talked about that before. Like every restaurant you go to here has organ meats on it, like, in terms of like a pate, a liver pate, or even just like soup with liver dumplings, like that's almost every restaurant. Yeah, it's really, really common. People eat more nose to tail, just culturally have less problems with obesity, but it could be coming, there's more and more fast food places all the time. But you think the movement part, you know, could be the reason, and a little bit more of the traditional diet adherence. So maybe in the future, but I would bet it's going to come to Asia if it hasn't already, because they're dealing with a lot more metabolic issues with their affluence, not Japan, but China, and other parts of Southeast Asia. Did you see?
Melanie Avalon:
See that TikTok influencer recently, I think she was Asian and she was eating and she died on the TikTok. Sorry, what? There was this TikTok influencer recently. I think she was Asian, but her thing that she was like an eater, like that's what her channel was. Like she just ate food. And so she died while eating. Oh, she over -eat. Yeah. A, it's really sad and B, it just, I don't know. It's really sad and it just speaks to, it's sad to me that like the food industry and like the concept of food has just become this obstacle and challenge and, you know, set up against us. Like we, like you were talking about, like this food is like created to make us want to keep eating it, which is crazy. And I've mentioned this before, but Mark Schatzger, who wrote The Dorito Effect and The End of Waving, I think I told you his theory about why people are overweight in the U .S. and not Europe. No. He compares like the dietary composition and he talks about how, you know, is it the gluten and the grains? No, they have gluten and grains. Is it the macros? No. You know, it's similar. Is it the fat content? No. Like what is the difference? Is it the calorie miles? Like what is it? He thinks it's the fortification of foods. He has a really, really interesting theory about this signaling from foods that are fortified with all these vitamins and how it just like freaks out and messes up our metabolisms. It's really, really interesting. It's like it's out there. Like I don't think anybody else is making this theory, but even if it's not the case, I think so much of it does go back to these processed foods. So and I was just thinking about you were talking about the liver meat and the there's such a difference in sorry, the liver and the organs. There's such a difference in eating, you know, nutrient rich foods where the nutrients are coming from the whole foods form. The fact that can have on satiety is just really incredible. So okay, any, any more thoughts?
Vanessa Spina:
I think that pretty much covers it for me.
Melanie Avalon:
me too. Now I want to go to Prague and like look at the restaurant menus and order something. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode390. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And we are currently taking submissions. If you would like to tell your own intermittent fasting story on the show and be interviewed by one of us, definitely submit to us. You can go to ifpodcast.com/submit, and there is a submission form there. And yeah, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa.
Vanessa Spina:
before we go. I had such a great time answering these questions and talking about these topics with you and looking forward to the next one.
Melanie Avalon:
Likewise, thank you so much. Happy homeschool adventures. And I will talk to you next week. Okay, sounds great.
Vanessa Spina:
Talk to you then.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
LINKS
BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com
Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
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