Episode 231: Dawn Phenomenon, Instant Coffee, Hidden Sugars, Added Color In Wine, Gluconeogenesis, Unexpected Hunger, And More!

Welcome to Episode 231 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. 

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And New Members Will Get Free Ground Beef FOR LIFE!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
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Listener Feedback: Andrea - chronic inflammation getting better quickly!

AUDIBLE: Go To audible.com/ifpodcast Or Text IFPODCAST To 500500 For A 30 Day Free Trial, Including A Free Audiobook! 

Listener Feedback: Diane - Just listening to your #226 podcast.

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Listener Q&A: Pam - OMG! My instant coffee is full of sugar!

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Listener Q&A: Bill - Blood Glucose

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Listener Q&A: Teresa - Hungry after 6 months on clean IF

Listener Q&A: Allie - Alternate daily fasting?

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 231 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.  

Friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life. Yes, for life. We are huge fans of a company called ButcherBox. As you guys know, to get high quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. ButcherBox is the solution. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork, nitrate-free sugar-free bacon, heritage-breed hotdogs, and wild-caught seafood all directly to your door. When you become a member, you're joining a community that is focused on doing what's better for all parties. That means caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect, and enjoying better nourishing meals together. They go to great lengths to ensure the highest quality so you can find actual 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef. If you've seen the Netflix documentary, Seaspiracy, you might be aware of fish fraud and problems in the seafood industry. ButcherBox maintains very, very high standards for that, and the whole process is so easy. They deliver all of this directly to your door. Once you sign up, you choose your box and your delivery frequency, they offer five boxes, four curated box options as well as the popular custom box, so with that one you can get exactly what you and your family love. They ship your order frozen at the peak freshness and packed in a 100% recyclable box, and the shipping is always free. So, basically ButcherBox makes it easy so that you can focus on cooking amazing meals, not spending hours searching for meat that meets your standards and save money in the process. 

What's super amazing is ButcherBox makes sure their members are taken care of, and today we have a special offer just for our listeners. ButcherBox is giving new members free ground beef for life. Yes, for life. You can sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and you will get two pounds of ground beef free in every order for the life of your membership. Just log on to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to claim this deal. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. 

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare and makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. 

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.  

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list. And join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show. 

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 231 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: I am great, still at the beach. 

Melanie Avalon: Exciting. 

Gin Stephens: It is. I've really enjoyed it. I had a friend that came and stayed with me, and then another friend came and stayed with me, and now, Will is on his way to come and spend a few days, and then I'll be going home.  

Melanie Avalon: Nice.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we have a renter that's going to be here for the entire month of September. [laughs] I'm going to have to switch everything over. It's different for when you're staying here versus when you're renting it. Anyway, I've really enjoyed my time here. It's just beautiful. The water is so warm in the ocean.  

Melanie Avalon: That is nice.  

Gin Stephens: It is. Yeah. What's up with you? 

Melanie Avalon: Do you know what's exciting about Episode 231?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't.  

Melanie Avalon: Every time we hit a one, like 31, 41, a 51, that's when I re-record the intros for the next 10 episodes, and it's like a marker and time. Because I guess that's what, two and a half months, and I always just feels like just yesterday that I was recording.  

Gin Stephens: Time is flying. Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: It's so weird. It's so weird. I have a funny story. I don't know if I should share it. 

Gin Stephens: Well, then you totally should.  

Melanie Avalon: I did something crazy.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, well. Everyone wants to hear this. Everyone's saying, "Share it, share it, share it." [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. Okay. I did something kind of crazy last night.  

Gin Stephens: Well, if you think it's crazy, it's found to be crazy. Go ahead. Okay, share it.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay, you can let me know if this is crazy. I don't know. Okay. [laughs] I've had like a miniature crush on this guy who works at a Whole Foods here for four years, and I really want to talk to him, but every time I go into Whole Foods, I don't go into Whole Foods when I'm dressed up and looking nice, because why would I do that? So, I was like, “How do I be at Whole Foods dressed up and nice and talk to him?” But I don't want to dress up and go to Whole Foods. If he's not there, it's just silly. Yesterday, it was a Friday, and I saw him during the day, and I was like, “Oh, well. I could dress up, and it's Friday. And then, I could come back later, and it would make sense that I would be going to Whole Foods dressed up on a Friday night.” Like I could pick out some wine, it would make sense like why I was there in a cocktail dress. Then, I can go home and I can take selfies for Instagram and stock up, so, it'll all be productive. So, I literally went to Whole Foods at 8:30 in a cocktail dress, full done up with makeup and then just went and sat in the wine section.  

Gin Stephens: At 8:30 in the morning? 

Melanie Avalon: No, at night. [laughs] Then, I didn't think he was there. I was like, “Oh, well, I guess I'm here for no reason,” and then he walked by me and I almost fainted.  

Gin Stephens: Well, did you talk to him? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Then, I was like, “Oh, my gosh, [giggles] what do I do?” Then, I picked out a wine, and then I just awkwardly walked around--  

Gin Stephens: Holding your wine?  

Melanie Avalon: Holding my wine because I wasn't sure where he was. I was like, "I have to have an agenda, what am I doing?"  

Gin Stephens: That's so funny. I can just picture it. I'm imagining you in your cocktail dress. [laughs]   

Melanie Avalon: He was at the cashier. Then I hey went to the cashier, and he was like, “Hello.” I was like, “Hello.” He was like, “Are you going out?” I was like, “Yes.” [laughs] He's never asked me a question in my entire life. In my defense, I was going out. I was going outside after leaving. 

Gin Stephens: Well, there you go. There you go.  

Melanie Avalon: He was like, “You look nice.” I was like, “Thank you.” Then, I had this [laughs] whole plan orchestrated because I wanted to have an activity to do with him at the cashier register. When you have cards that-- it's like a prepaid card that has a random amount on it, and you need to use $3.11. So, I had two of those. I was like, “I need help with something.” I was like, “Can you help me with this?” Then, it was super awkward and embarrassing because I hadn't used those cards in forever, so, I couldn't remember the pins. Then he did come around and help me, and it was so embarrassing, and then I left. 

Gin Stephens: Well, you've made contact. Now, I have to give you advice from a 52-year-old who's been in a 30-year marriage.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes.  

Gin Stephens: You need to meet him looking scruffy next.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, but he's seen me scruffy every day. That's the thing.  

Gin Stephens: That's what people see most of the time around the house is scruffy. You don't need them to like you looking dressed up. You need for them to like you scruffy. 

Melanie Avalon: He knows what I look like, because he sees me. Well, I don't know. Maybe I look so different that he doesn't realize I'm the same person. I don't know. I was like, “Mission accomplished.”  

Gin Stephens: Well, now, he's seen you both ways. So, that's good.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Then I left, and then I was really productive and took a lot of selfies for Instagram. So, it was like the best Friday night ever. 

Gin Stephens: Well, good. Now, I've got to go look and see how you were looking on your Instagram photos. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. [laughs] Ah, man. I don't know. I go to great lengths when I have something I want to do, like meet a man at Whole Foods. [laughs] So, that's my story. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, I have to tell you something funny.  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Go.  

Gin Stephens: Here I am. Oh, no, I'm logged in as Cleanish Gin. Okay, I was apparently, I'm not following you on Instagram, but that was my other profile, the Cleanish Gin one. 

Melanie Avalon: It's my story from last night where I said Happy Friday. So, that's what I wore. 

Gin Stephens: Okay, anyway, now I'm officially following you in all the places not just the other one, because like, “Why am I not following Melanie? That's so weird. What's wrong with me?” Oh, there you are. Look at that. You look fabulous. 

Melanie Avalon: That was before going to Whole Foods.  

Gin Stephens: There you go. Looking good. Happy Friday. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I felt like in high school. I was so nervous, and I couldn't figure out the pin, and I couldn't swipe the card. It was just--  

Gin Stephens: That's great.  

Melanie Avalon: He was probably like, “What is this girl doing?” So, good times. That's my life. Really brief announcement for listeners. Go to melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase and get on the email list, because we are signing the contract officially today probably, and starting production Monday.  

Gin Stephens: Fabulous.  

Melanie Avalon: If listeners would like my serrapeptase supplement, or more information about it, or the preorder special, it will probably never be that low of a price again. Go to that link.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I know you're excited.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm very excited.  

Gin Stephens: Well, congratulations.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. Was that a crazy story?  

Gin Stephens: No, not at all.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I don't seem like crazy? [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: No, it sounds fun.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay.  

Gin Stephens: [laughs] You want him to see another side of you. Now, he's seen it.  

Melanie Avalon: This is true. This is true. 

Gin Stephens: Next time though, when you're looking all shlumpy--  

Melanie Avalon: Talk to him?  

Gin Stephens: Talk to him. Talk to him then. Yeah, because you know-- 

Melanie Avalon: If I wear a mask--  

Gin Stephens: What do you mean?  

Melanie Avalon: Then, he can't see my face.  

Gin Stephens: Why don't you want him to see your face?  

Melanie Avalon: I don't know.  

Gin Stephens: That's the part that sounds crazy. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Well, he's already seen my face.  

Gin Stephens: Okay, then let him see your face that's not made up.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay.  

Gin Stephens: Your bare face. I promise you. Look, when we were in college, my college roommate and I noticed something funny. When we were all dolled up and going to eat in the cafeteria, everybody's like, “Hey, how you doing?” But let's say we'd been lying out in the sun, and we looked all scruffy, and our hair was back, and we hadn't showered, we had on no makeup, I swear, more guys talk to us than then if we look fancy. I think guys really like a natural look, a lot of guys. They find that attractive. So, be confident that you look attractive in your normal face. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, actually, I think there's one picture on my Instagram where I don't have makeup, and two guys have commented that that's their favorite picture of me on Instagram. 

Gin Stephens: I'm telling you, I'm telling you. We dress up and put on all that makeup, really honestly for other women. Men like a natural look. So, no mask, you let him see your naturalness.  

Melanie Avalon: I promise.  

Gin Stephens: Do it. 

Melanie Avalon: We'll see. I'll report back.  

Gin Stephens: I never forgot that from when I was in college that she was right. My college roommate noticed that. I'm like, “You know what? You're right.” After that, I was never as worried about, "Do I have on makeup or do I not?" and, "Does my hair look good?" I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: Baby steps. The problem is he literally might not realize I'm the same person. So, what if I'm like that and then I reference the card extravaganza, and he's like, “What is she talking about? [laughs] Who is this girl?” 

Gin Stephens: I bet he'll figure it out. I can't imagine that you would look that different. Also, if he can't figure out that's still you, then he's not very smart, and just say goodbye. [laughs] That's my advice. 

Melanie Avalon: True that. All right. Well, anything else new from you?  

Gin Stephens: No. That's all. I'm just enjoying my beach time, getting all tanned, getting some sun.  

Melanie Avalon: Vitamin D.  

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Hanging out with the lizard on my porch, all that stuff.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Shall we jump into everything for today?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. We have some feedback from Andrea, and the subject is "Chronic inflammation getting better quickly." Andrea writes, “Dear Gin and Melanie, I wanted to write and share with you my exciting news. I've struggled with my health for the past four plus years. I got Lyme disease in 2017 that eventually led to fibromyalgia, and autoimmune inflammation, and arthritis, which put me in a vicious cycle of chronic inflammation. I've been in a tremendous amount of pain. Then in January of this year, I got COVID. My body never had a chance to recover before another issue would pop up and keep me inflamed or make me worse. I've tried every supplement to bring down the inflammation and calm my body but nothing worked. I even did hyperbaric oxygen. If I heard of something that was supposed to work for inflammation, I'd try it. I honestly had given up. I not only was in a very unhealthy state with my weight, but really with my health, and I thought I just had to live with it. 

I had always tried to do fasting, but always would fast dirty and it would never work. But with my latest issue in March that threatened to take away my vision, I decided to go cold turkey and fast clean. As an artist, the thought of losing my vision was just too much. This was the thing that finally got me to give up cream and my coffee. I had my CRP, C-reactive protein, and ESR checked in March right before I started fasting clean. Both are indicators of inflammation in the body. Both were very high. CRP was greater than 10. The scale only goes to 10. If you're over that, they don't even give you a number on the lab. My ESR was 45. Both extremely high and concerning. I'm happy to report that I just got my blood work back that I had done in July, and after only a little over four months of fast and clean on a 20:4 schedule, and one long 48-hour fast, my CRP was 4.8. Still high, but coming down quickly.” So, just for listeners, it had been over 10. The scale only goes up to 10. She was over 10. Now, it's 4.8. That is amazing. Then, she says, "My ESR was in the normal range at 14." So, it had been 45, now it's 14. That's incredible. She says, "I feel so good and have a ton of energy. I'm able to exercise and be very active. I've lost some sizes, about two, but I don't know what sort of weight loss I've had, because I really want to focus on the healing and know the weight loss will follow. 

I want to share a bit of my story now to hopefully encourage others out there who are struggling with inflammation, pain, Lyme, and autoimmune, or any type of inflammatory illness. This is the first thing that has really worked for me, and I just want to share it with everyone. Thank you and take care, Andi." Now that's huge, Melanie. The clean fast is really, it's a nonnegotiable. So, she's had that much healing once she finally began fast and clean. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's an incredible story, and I really wonder, the scale only going to 10, it could have been anything. It could have been even way higher than 10, and it I went down in four months to 4.8. That's amazing. I have not had ESR checked before. Have you?  

Gin Stephens: Not that I know of.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I know InsideTracker that we partner with, check CRP. So, did you get CRP? Have you had that done?  

Gin Stephens: I can't remember. I've done InsideTracker, but it's been a while and I haven't. I don't remember. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm always really obsessive. But checking CRP, that's just really, really wonderful. I love that story, and I love hearing it because a lot of times we hear feedback from people, amazing things like this, but it's just going from not fasting to fasting, but this was her going from dirty fasting to clean fasting and the difference there. 

Gin Stephens: Right. It's really hard for people to wrap their minds around what difference could a little cream make. Because this person says, it's okay, that person says, it's okay. So, you're like, “Well, it's got to be okay. You're clinging to it like a life raft.” [laughs] "Well, this person says it's fine." But honestly, then you let the clean fast take over, and you fast clean, and your body is not having to focus on digesting and working with even that tiny bit of cream. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. A lot of people think that it will make it harder, because whatever they're using during the fast, they think what they're having in the fast making it easier. So, they think the cream and the sweeteners are making it easier. But really on the flip side, it's much easier without it for a lot of people. 

Gin Stephens: Yep, and I hear that over and over again on Intermittent Fasting Stories. People are talking and sharing their story, and they're like, “Yeah, I didn't think that was true. I was doing it the other way, and then I went to the clean fast, and immediately it was better.” I've heard that so many times now. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, we are super, super happy for you, Andi. Thank you so much for writing in. That was a really beautiful, and incredible story, and inspirational. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to tell you about one of the sponsors for today's podcast, Audible. Audible is the leading provider of spoken-word entertainment all in one place. At Audible, you can find the largest selection of audiobooks ranging from bestsellers and new releases to celebrity memoirs, languages, business, motivation, and more. As an Audible member, you will get one credit every month good for any title in their entire premium selection. Those titles are yours to keep forever in your Audible library. You'll also get full access to their popular plus catalogue. It's filled with thousands and thousands of audio books, original entertainment, guided fitness and meditation, sleep tracks for better rest, and podcasts, including ad-free versions of many of your favorite shows and exclusive series. All are included with your membership, so you can download and stream all you want. No credits needed to access the plus catalogue.  

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Melanie Avalon: All right, so, we have some more feedback. This comes from Diane. She says, "Just listening to your 226 podcast. You may address this later, but I am walking away for now and I don't want to forget. I wanted to offer some anecdotal info. My friend's son has Type 1 diabetes, and she said in her couple years’ experience, the CGM has a lag time, something like up to 20 minutes. I actually helped to fundraise for a specific service dog that monitors his body chemistry, and it is far more accurate in real time as to blood sugar drops even overnight. Isn't that incredible?" To clarify for listeners, Gin, this dog, it can monitor the blood sugar drops? 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, these dogs are amazing. I don't know what, they've got all these different senses you don’t have. I guess. I don't know, maybe you smell different. I've no idea what they're noticing, but yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: I've actually wondered-- this is a tangent really quick, but I've wondered if people with higher blood sugar levels are more sensitive to mosquitoes and stuff like that, because I've noticed, when I had better blood sugar level control, I was impervious to mosquitoes, and getting bit, and then when I felt I started, I don't know, having issues with that, I would get bit and everything. I'd read somebody saying that at some point it had to do with your blood sugar levels. I should go down that rabbit hole.  

Gin Stephens: That's so interesting. Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. There’s so many things about us that we can't perceive. 

Melanie Avalon: Because I'm guessing-- Okay, this is going to come off as completely awful. This is not true. But when mosquitoes suck your blood, they're using the sugar, right?  

Gin Stephens: I don't know what they're getting. I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I actually just really quickly googled. Listeners, I have not dived in deep, but it looks like yes, mosquitoes use sugar as a fuel source, but it's probably not the determining factor into why they're attracted to certain people. 

Gin Stephens: You never know though. There might be something if a dog can notice when your blood sugar's dropping, then it certainly is feasible that mosquitoes might be attracted to--  

Melanie Avalon: To something.  

Gin Stephens: Yep. Just because we don't know doesn't mean it's not true.  

Melanie Avalon: True. Okay, the rest of her question, she says, "Anyhow, thought you would like to hear that if you were unaware," and what she's referring to is that there's a lag with the CGM. She says "Also maybe your blood sugar AM spike--" I don't know if she's referring to a listener who wrote in or just in general, but she says, "Also, maybe your blood sugar AM spike is just dawn phenomenon, and not related, but just coincidental with your black coffee." Oh, this is great, because we actually have a question about this later, I think. But yeah, what Diane is referring to, she's referring to continuous glucose monitors that Gin and I talk about a lot on this show. Basically, there are really small sensor that you can just put on to your arm, and it measures the interstitial fluid around yourself, and can give you a reading of your blood sugar levels throughout the day. Yeah, it is understood that there is a lag somewhere between 10 to 20 minutes. So, basically, when you scan your CGM, it's probably what your blood sugar was 10 to 20 minutes ago. If you have a glucometer, like a home blood sugar monitor, you can check it. That is something really good to keep in mind. 

Actually interesting, Gin, I had the call this week or this week, yeah, this week with somebody at ZOE, because well, I'm supposed to start that soon. I'm trying to get up the courage to eat the muffins. But I asked her though if it's measuring, because sometimes the CGM, we've talked about this before, sometimes they are off by 10 points or something, and I asked her if that would affect the results. I need to confirm this with Tim Spector when I interview him. But the representative that I talked to, she said their calculations is just looking at the change, not the absolute values. So, the CGM could be wrong, like it could be off, but because it's not wrong with a difference in how it changes, it shouldn't mess up the ZOE information. 

Gin Stephens: They're looking at the response, how it goes up or down after the input. Yeah, that makes sense. 

Melanie Avalon: That was really cool. If listeners would like to get their own CGM, two links I have. You can go to melanieavalon.com.levelscgm. That will let you skip their waitlist, or you can go to melanieavalon.com/nutritioncgm and the coupon code, MELANIEAVALON, will get you $40 off. Gin, have you got your level CGM, yet? 

Gin Stephens: I've got it. I'm not going to put it on until I get home from the beach. I would rather have it and use it during more of a normal period of time for me versus traveling.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that makes sense. I'm about to put another one on once I start ZOE. So, exciting.  

Gin Stephens: I also want to add, you know, Diane mentioned coincidence with black coffee. That's not a coincidence. When your blood sugar changes after black coffee, that's not a coincidence. It's because we know that black coffee can make your liver dump some glycogen. So, if you see your blood glucose go up after black coffee, that's not a surprise. Remember, it's not coming from the coffee cup. It's coming from within your own body. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, basically, people experiencing spikes in the morning, there are two factors that could be leading to that. It could be making it even more exponential because there's the dawn phenomenon like she spoke about, and then also the black coffee. The dawn phenomenon speaks to a natural inherent circadian-- I guess, it would be an infradian rhythm of cortisol. No, no, no. Ultradian, ultradian. 

Gin Stephens: I don't even know. [laughs] Those words are not words I can use in my vocabulary yet. 

Melanie Avalon: For some reason, I can't get it to stick in my head which is which, but infradian is greater than 30 days and ultradian is less than. So, ultradian. 

Gin Stephens: Circadian is day to day. So, why wouldn't that be circadian, it would, right?  

Melanie Avalon: I said that wrong. 

Gin Stephens: Okay.  

Melanie Avalon: Infradian is greater than a day, I didn't mean to say 30, a day. Circadian is a day 24 hours, ultradian is less than 24 hours.  

Gin Stephens: Wouldn't the dawn phenomenon be circadian?  

Melanie Avalon: No, because it's speaking to the fluctuations of cortisol throughout the day.  

Gin Stephens: But if they happen every morning of the dawn time, wouldn't that be once a day?  

Melanie Avalon: Right, but it's how it's changing, like cortisol changing-- 

Gin Stephens: Well.  

Melanie Avalon: Because cortisol changes throughout the day.  

Gin Stephens: But we're talking about the once-a-day dawn phenomenon. It's not called the dawn and then later on to-- [laughs] Sorry. I'm being persnickety here with my vocabulary.  

Melanie Avalon: I have to google this or think about it more.  

Gin Stephens: But because dawn only happens once a day. 

Melanie Avalon: Right. It's naming one of the peaks of cortisol that happens. Cortisol is changing throughout the day, and there's a peak point known as the dawn phenomenon. Does that make sense? 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I would just call something that happened every day around dawn circadian because it's once every 24 and the other peaks would be something else. I don't know. It doesn't really matter. It's just semantics. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it’s a good question. Ultradian are biological circles occurring within 24 hours. So, that is something that occurs within 24 hours, and the cortisol continues to change after that. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Our bodies are constantly in flux. A lot of our levels flux throughout the day. That's good for people to keep in mind.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. All right, shall we go on to our questions?  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: This question comes from Pam. The subject is, "Oh, my gosh, my instant coffee is full of sugar!!!" Pam says, “Hi, Gin. I just thought I'd share something with you that I discovered this morning. I thought my Nescafe instant coffee was just freeze-dried coffee. It says 100% coffee beans on the label, but it is far from it. There is no ingredient list on the jar. You have to google it or scan the barcode for more information. Oh, my gosh, sugar is the first ingredient. There are at least two more types of sugar, palm oil, and some other crap. I thought you'd want to share with your listeners as they too may find they have been spiking insulin all day," then she has a frowny emoji. "I've also got a story to share and it's a doozy. I've had no luck trying to reach you at gin@intarmittentfastingstories.com. Anyway, thanks for all you do,” Pamela. 

Gin Stephens: Let me speak to that last part first, Pamela. You're spelling intermittent wrong. The way that you wrote it there, you've got an A instead of an E. So, you got to spell intermittent with an E instead of the A. That's why so y'all I am available at gina@intermittentfastingstories.com. Now, I don't answer intermittent fasting questions there. So, don't send them to me. Continue to send those to questions at ifpodcast.com. Because I just don't have time unfortunately to answer all the questions, but it has to be spelled the right way. That's a mouthful. I should have just been IF stories. Gin at ifstories.com would have been easier. But no, it's Gin at intermittent with an E fasting stories dotcom. Sigh. Why did I do that? Sometimes, I even spell it wrong when I'm typing it. It's a lot too tight. Typos are difficult. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Have you thought about buying ifstories.com?  

Gin Stephens: No, it's not that big of a deal. I think we could figure it out. I get plenty of people getting to me. [laughs] Just check your spelling everybody. That's all I'm saying. Check your spelling. All right. So, yeah, that is absolutely frustrating. I know, because if it says 100% coffee beans, and then when you actually research, you find that that's not what it is. That doesn't seem like it would be illegal. But everybody, check your products. If there's no ingredients list, google and try to find one that way. 

Melanie Avalon: It is frustrating how this happens I think with a lot of products. 

Gin Stephens: Like with wine, for example. We know that they don't have ingredient list. 

Melanie Avalon: They don't even put labels on wine and--  

Gin Stephens: What's in there, we don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: Yep, and it's actually not usually just wine. That really blew my mind when I first learned that. I was like, “Oh.” Listeners, if you ever have wine, and it's particularly some cheap wine, and you notice that it really made your teeth red or purple, it's probably because it has a very common colorizer that is common in conventional wine to make it redder. You'll notice now if you go and have some cheap wine, and your teeth turn a little bit red, that's why. It's not the wine. It's not crazy.  

Gin Stephens: Years ago, over 10 years ago, well before intermittent fasting and us during this podcast, I actually made a decision that I was not going to drink red wine in public anymore because of how crazy my teeth looked. I was like, “I just don't want to look like that in front of people with those crazy red teeth.” So, I do not drink red wine in public anymore. That was what I said to myself. Come to find out when we had Todd White on this podcast, he's like, “It's not the wine, it's the color.” I'm like “What?” Anyway, I still won't drink those wines in public, but I also won't drink those wines in private. Red wine, it's either Dry Farm Wines or I'm not drinking it. 

Melanie Avalon: If listeners would like Dry Farm Wines like us, they can go to dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and get a bottle for a penny. My order just came yesterday. I get so excited when my new order comes. Did you know, Gin, they also label the amount of sugar on the back? 

Gin Stephens: Yes, I did know that.  

Melanie Avalon: It's very cool.  

Gin Stephens: Because I look at the back. I always want to know where it's from, what country, what they have to you know, that sort of thing for everyone that they send.  

Melanie Avalon: I really liked how they label it like that.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they didn't used to do it. Their labels have changed since they used to way, and also their wines have gotten better over time. When we first started-- when did we first start partnering with them? Was it 2017, has it been that long?  

Melanie Avalon: It was forever ago.  

Gin Stephens: t's been a long time. But when we first started, their wines were a little more obscure, and I don't want to say weirder, that sounds bad, but the quality is noticeably better now. As they've gotten bigger, the wines have gotten better. You know what I mean? Every now and then, a long time ago, when we first started the wine, I'd be like, “This one's a little weird.” 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad you said that. I hadn't really thought about that, but yeah, when I first started, the whites I actually always really liked, but the reds sometimes were a little watery. I didn't mind drinking them, but I wouldn't know if always there would be a wine I want to like bring to a dinner. But now, they're always amazing. 

Gin Stephens: Of course, if you find one that you don't like it, they do offer refunds if you don't like them. At any time, you can just contact them and say no, that one was a dud. They will take care of you. But for anybody who tried it a long time ago when we first started, and they're like, “Yeah, they were weird. I didn't like them,” well, really, I've noticed a difference now. Now, there's never a dud.  

Melanie Avalon: I have too.  

Gin Stephens: Try again, anybody who tried it and was like, well, there's might not be for me. Try it again. 

Melanie Avalon: If you're actually a white wine drinker, I think the white wines are just incredible. If you're like a sweet wine, they're not going to be super sweet is the thing, they're really fantastic.  

Gin Stephens: If you think you must have the sweet ones, train your palate to break away from that and it will surprise you. I used to think I liked the sweet ones way back in the day. Now, I realized I don't. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so nice because I used to shy away from white wines, because I wouldn't know if they would be too sweet. But the Dry Farm Wines ones are just, they're really nice. Then the reds are-- especially, today like you said are just I love them. Body wise, they tend to be on the lighter side for reds, but they're very complex and nuanced, and some are earthy, some are minerally, some are fruity, might I can talk wine all day.  

Gin Stephens: What When Wine, that's one-third of it right there.  

Melanie Avalon: If there's a certain type of wine you like, say, you're hearing this and you're like, “Oh, well, I really like heavy-bodied cabs," if you email them, you can request for them to make a custom box for you of whatever type you like. So, if you do want heavier reds for example, just email them and say, “Hey, can you send me a box of full-bodied reds?" and they'll customize it for you.  

Gin Stephens: Awesome. Great tip.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I gave the link right for the free bottle.  

Gin Stephens: Give it again.  

Melanie Avalon: dryfarmwhines.com/ifpodcast. 

Gin Stephens: It really is worthwhile. I just can't believe how much it is. I wish you could just go anywhere and buy any wine. [laughs] But you can't.  

Melanie Avalon: If you're my friend, you now basically get Dry Farm Wines for your birthday if you're a wine drinker. This is perfect, because the next question relates to something we just talked about. 

Gin Stephens: Absolutely. So, this is fun Bill and the subject is "Blood glucose." Bill says, “Ladies, I enjoy your podcast. I don't get the feeling a lot of men are doing IF, but might be wrong.” Bill, you are wrong. There are a lot of men doing IF or a lot of men, a lot of men. There might even be more men doing it than women. I just feel maybe more women join the groups.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's a good question. I would love to know--  

Gin Stephens: A lot of men, they just do it. They don't need a group, they just join. They just start. 

Melanie Avalon: I guess a lot of the ones that are at the gym, and you know where they're all about the macros in the diet, but in general, they don't talk about their diet as much as women do. 

Gin Stephens: Let me think about just my family and the people that are related to me, just the people who are related to me that are doing it. My brother-in-law's doing it, my brother is doing it, Chad does it, my sister-in-law does it. But notice how many of the people I just named are men. It's mostly the men in my life are all doing it. Cal used to do it. Now, he doesn't. Will does it. In my personal life, more of the men that are related to me than the women do intermittent fasting.  

Anyway, yeah, lots of men. They're just not joining groups. They just quietly do it. [laughs] All right, so, although there are plenty of men in the groups, and hello to all of you who are there. I'm glad you're there. He goes on to say, “My doctor suggested IF and it's really working. I started my wife on it, and she is also succeeding. My question relates to blood glucose. I'm 60 and not a diabetic. I'm now doing a 20:4, last meal by 6 PM. But when I wake up and test my blood, it's 102 to 107, then drops as the morning goes on as I continue my fast. What's up with that? What's raising the glucose? Is this normal? Thanks." 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, this was perfect, because we just discussed this earlier, but there are two factors that primarily lead to higher blood sugars in the morning. One is the dawn effect. The natural ultradian rhythm of cortisol. What's happening there is cortisol is prompting the liver to release its stored glucose in the form of glycogen into the bloodstream. So, you're just releasing endogenous blood sugar that you already have in you. I might have to fact check that because it might also perform gluconeogenesis. So, it might actually create blood sugar. 

Gin Stephens: Are you creating if you already have plenty in your liver, would your body wouldn't create it if you had some? 

Melanie Avalon: I actually don't know, because my weird, random obsession with gluconeogenesis. I don't know why, but I'm very much fascinated by it, and the gluconeogenesis process, from what I understand, doesn't line up necessarily black and white with the level of glucose that you have either from your food or already stored. It's thought that-- like I said, I need to research it even more, but I think overdoing gluconeogenesis when you actually don't need to be doing it is a major factor related to diabetes. I think it's possible you could be engaging in gluconeogenesis even with topped-off glycogen tanks.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I just don't know. I would think that your body wouldn't, but I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: Like metformin and berberine, one of the proposed mechanisms of action is that it's stopping that pathway.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. It's like a healthy body wouldn't be doing that probably, right.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly.  

Gin Stephens: But that would be part of those if you were already going down that metabolic route and problems, that would make more sense. 

Melanie Avalon: I think so. And then, I was reading a study, and I'm trying to remember. I was reading a study this week actually, where this came up again, and it was-- Trying remember what I was reading about, but it was talking about the levels of gluconeogenesis while fasted versus after you eat, and how in some people it can basically be the same. That process can basically just be going on. I should probably just do a whole episode on it.  

Yeah, so point being with the natural cortisol rhythm, there's a motivation in the morning for the body to produce or release blood sugar, so that can lead to your higher levels, and then on top of that coffee can also stimulate this. So, yes, it is normal. It's good that it's going down because he says that it drops. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's true. Do you have any men or very many men in your Facebook groups?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, probably what I've noticed is there are but I feel like they don't talk as much. I should look at the stats. I'm sure there's a way. You would know this better than me, Gin, if there's a way to just look at the-- 

Gin Stephens: There absolutely is a way. That's how I know.  

Melanie Avalon: Is it a quick check?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's in the admin area. I can't remember what to click on, but in the admin panel, there's some things to look at where you can click it. You can see where people are from, that was always interesting, like the countries, and the cities, and then you can see the percentage by gender. And also, they break it down by age. 

Melanie Avalon: My Facebook group IF Biohackers, well, that is not what I would have thought. So, it's 92% female, 8% male. 

Gin Stephens: That's actually larger percent male I think than some of my groups.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. That's actually a pretty high percentage of males. It was always over 90% of women. Again, I don't know if that's a function of just women being more likely in general to join a Facebook group or maybe just the fact that they were so women focused that the men just maybe came in and said, “Oh, wait, this is all women, and maybe not,” but we always had a strong core group of men that stayed around, and posted, and I appreciated hearing from them. I loved having the male members in the groups. I didn't want to have an all-woman group, [laughs] but it just shook out that way. It wasn't purposeful. So, thank you to all the men who were actively contributing to the group's back but before I left Facebook, because there were a lot of amazing men there that I got to know, that worked as moderators in the group and that thing. Their voices were valuable, and I consider them an important part of the community, especially those men that are confident enough to walk into a group full of 90% something women and just engage. I loved it. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you know what's interesting? My CGM Facebook group. I have another Facebook group called Lumen, Biosense & CGMs: Carbs, Fat, Ketones & Blood Sugar. It's the exact same percent. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. I wonder probably a lot of the people are in both of them. It's very similar, the same people. 

Melanie Avalon: My Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare group is 99% women.  

Gin Stephens: That's not a surprise either.  

Melanie Avalon: 1% male. So, fun times.  

Gin Stephens: Although they do have amazing men's products. Beautycounter has a great men's products. 

Melanie Avalon: My dad just, because at Christmas I gave him all the things, and he just told me that he ran out and he needs more, because they were really great products. I’m like, “I got you covered.” My uncle told me the same thing. So, great, Counterman is their line. So, ladies, if you ever need presence for men in your life, that's actually a really great gift. 

Gin Stephens: It really is. Because you know men are hard to buy for, especially, the men in my life, I don't know what it is about that. But I guess they all are probably if mine are that hard to buy for, but yeah, get them the man's collection, and it's just really good stuff because they deserve clean beauty-- Well, I don't want to say beauty. They deserve clean skincare also and products.  

Melanie Avalon: Wine and skincare, and we're good for presents.  

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Melanie Avalon: All right, so, shall we go on to our next question?  

Gin Stephens: Absolutely.  

Melanie Avalon: This question comes from Theresa. The subject is "Hungry after six months on clean IF." Teresa says, “Hello, ladies. Absolutely, love your podcast. I've only just started listening. So, bingeing at the moment.” She means bingeing on the episodes. She says, “I'm only up to Episode 25. So, you may have answered this in the upcoming episodes. I've been following a fasting lifestyle on and off for almost two years. For the last six months, I've been clean fasting. My fasting windows change with variations of 17:7 to 23:1 depending on what's happening in my life, but my window is always in the evening. I generally aim for a four-hour window of 3 PM to 7 PM one meal a day. I eat good food, homemade nutrient-dense meals, and I avoid processed food for the most part. I drink wine occasionally. I don't follow any special regimen. I'm not paleo, keto, or vegetarian.  

Just recently, I found that I'm getting hungry and this is new. I've been fat adapted for a while, and enjoy the energy, and I'm usually ready to eat around 3 PM or 4 PM. I'm now hungry in the morning after my usual black tea, and I'm struggling making it through to 3 PM. I thought it may be the tea, so I switched to water with no difference. I'm still hungry around 9 AM. I'm wondering what's happening. I've recently returned to full-time work after eight months off, and I was wondering if I'm just needing more food as I'm more active now. I'm not worrying too much about weight loss although I am still bigger than I want to be, I know I'm getting smaller, so, I'm just going with the flow. I want the health benefits more than the weight loss. I will change my window this week to a 17:7 two meal a day temporarily to see if it helps. Could it be that I'm depleted in something? I'm not sure how to manage this. I want to get back to normal ASAP. Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. Many thanks, Theresa." 

Gin Stephens: There's so much that could be making you feel temporarily hungrier. One clue is that you just changed your routine. You're back to work after eight months off and now that seems to be coinciding with you being hungrier and you're more active now. So, that could be it. You said that you're bigger than you want to be. So, I don't really know what-- There's a big difference between like, “Oh, you'd like to lose five more pounds versus you'd like to lose 50 more pounds.” Let's say, you only want to lose 5, 10 more pounds. It's possible that your body has reached a point where it's really, really happy, and you're at a healthy, ideal weight for your body even though your mind might want to lose a little bit more. In which case, your body's naturally ramping up the hunger because it's ready to maintain instead of lose more. So, that could be it. If you still have 50 pounds to go, that wouldn't be as much something to think about.  

Really, the fact that you're just back to work and have a new routine, I think, could be a lot of it. You just have to be your own study of one and see what you can do. It also depends on the kind of hunger that you're experiencing. If you're feeling shaky, and nauseous, and like, “Oh my gosh, I have to eat,” that's different. That's physically you need to eat. But if it's just a little bit, “Oh, I’m feeling a little more hungrier,” that doesn't mean you have to eat. Just ignore it, see what happens, and 30 minutes after that first wave a hunger, do you feel better? Because that's usually what happens for me. I went for a long walk on the beach yesterday, and when I came back in, I was hungry. That was 11 in the morning or something and it wasn't time for me to eat, but I had just done a lot of activity. But I ignored it, didn't eat, then I recorded a podcast from here at the beach. Then, I got busy and did some shopping, and then it was like 5:30 and I still hadn't eaten yet. I just forgot that I'd been hungry, and I was like, “Oh, after I finish this podcast, I'm going to eat because I'm so hungry.” Then, I went and ran an errand, and then I forgot I was hungry, because I was busy. 

So, really just pay attention to the kind of hunger. Is it the shaky, nauseous, “Oh, my gosh, I have to eat” hunger that's different than, “Wow, I'm hunger than I had been being” which does pass? So, be your study of one, keep experimenting, and see what feels right to you. 

Melanie Avalon: I love everything that you said there. This might be a situation where Theresa might find some insight from wearing a CGM, because it would be interesting to see, when you're experiencing this hunger, are you getting hypoglycemic? Is your blood sugar dropping? I think one of the most fascinating things that people can experience with CGMs is realizing how their perception of hunger may or may not correlate to, ironically, low or even potentially high blood sugar levels. So, maybe getting a CGM and seeing what happens after you eat, what happens when you fast, and then with that-- I know she eats nutrient-dense foods and not a lot of processed foods, but playing around with the foods that you're eating might also help. If you've never tried keto, that works really well for some people with hunger. For some people, that gets rid their hunger. Some people, they're always hungry. So, it's just something that if you haven't tried it, that might be something really interesting to try and see if that helps with your hunger. I would not suggest trying vegetarian for hunger. 

Gin Stephens: I don't know. Now, seriously, though, there are a lot of people who feel great vegetarian. I'm one of those people. When I eat more vegetarian versus when I ate keto, the difference is striking. Just FYI.  

Melanie Avalon: Do you eat completely vegetarian for more than a few days in a row?  

Gin Stephens: Probably. I don't really think about it. Here at the beach, I'm more likely to be vegetarian a lot of the time. When I say vegetarian, I'm not vegan, obviously. I guess I had eggs. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: But I don't always have eggs. Eggs and beans, I get plenty of protein. But you can be vegetarian and still get plenty of protein just without animal meat, you know?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I definitely think you can. Maybe for Theresa, she's the type that her gut microbiome can really utilize a vegetarian diet. I feel like from a large amount of people, protein provides a lot of satiety, and not everybody has the gut setup to really thrive on vegetarian. Some people do. It just won't to be my first choice of something to try, but definitely try it. Maybe, it is the thing. [laughs] Maybe, it is the thing that would make you. So, I'm glad he said that. In any case, I would really focus on-- For hunger, I would really focus on protein. 

Gin Stephens: Well, she says, she eats homemade nutrient-dense meals. It sounds like she's getting great nutrients. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I just mean focusing on protein specifically for--  

Gin Stephens: Satiety?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But I like what you said, Gin about when it lines up with her big change. So, I think that's probably a big factor. 

Gin Stephens: When something changes and you notice other things are different, it's usually something is causing that. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. All right, so, we have a question from Allie. The subject is "Alternate day fasting." Allie says, Hi, Gin and Melanie, I started listening to both of you after I had my first baby in 2018, and I learned about fasting. I had to stop breastfeeding sooner than I would have liked. I had my second baby in November 2020, and I'm back to fasting since I sadly," again, she had to stop breastfeeding sooner than she would have liked. "When I first started fasting a few years ago, I fasted 19 to 20 hours every day, and had amazing results, and even better, I felt amazing. In the last few weeks, I have started 36-hour fast, because I just wasn't feeling great doing 20 hours like I did before and was not getting results. The ADF has been going well so far, and I am seeing the scale move again. 

My question. I know that both of you stick to 19 to 20 hours and that is your preference. Most of the people who write in also seem to fast this long, and I've listened to podcasts where you answered questions about longer fasts. Both of you always answer that longer does not necessarily mean better. I think I am misinterpreting your answers, and I have it in my head that you don't support longer fasts. Please, please correct me if my assumption is wrong. Is there a reason for why you say longer is not better? Do you still support ADF even though it isn't either of your preference? I would love to hear. Thank you for all the work that you do. It truly keeps me inspired and going. Intermittent fasting has changed my life. Much love from Canada, Allie." 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's a great question, and let's analyze that word, ‘better.’ Longer doesn't necessarily mean better. But that doesn't mean we think it's worse. So, really unpack what I just said and think about it. Let's say someone's fasting for 20 hours consistently, and they're not getting the results, maybe longer would be a good strategy for them. We don't say that it's always necessarily better. Keep that in mind. So, if you're a listener of the Intermittent Fasting Stories Podcast, and if you're not, I would encourage you to listen, I have many stories of people who do an alternate day fasting approach and a lot of them are like, “Oh, gosh, I was scared to do it. Then, I decided to do it, and it's been amazing.” So, we hear that all the time from people who really love it. If you read Fast. Feast. Repeat, I've got a whole section in there on ADF, a whole chapter. If I did not support it, I wouldn't have put it in there if I thought it was bad. I actually do have a section in Fast. Feast. Repeat where I caution you against doing fasts 72 hours and beyond unless you're under medical supervision, and I'm very specific in Fast. Feast. Repeat that these longer fasts are not recommended for weight loss according to what I have found in the research. 

In Fast. Feast. Repeat, I wouldn't have put it, like I said, if I didn't recommend it. So, I absolutely recommend it for anyone who feels great using that approach. I like to eat every day. That's my personal preference. I know many people who feel great on an alternate daily fasting approach or even I have a section in there where I talk about what I named the hybrid approach, where instead of a strict alternate daily fasting, where it's up day-down day, up day-down day, alternating like that, or even a 5:2, instead a hybrid approach where sometimes you have a down day followed by an up day, then the next day might be 19:5, and you really just mix it up to suit you. Just because I personally feel better eating every day doesn't mean that I think that's the approach everyone should follow. Whenever I say or we say, longer doesn't necessarily mean better, that doesn't mean that it's worse either. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I thought that was a beautiful answer. I'll just share my thoughts on the longer fasting. Basically, for me, I think that the benefits of intermittent fasting a lifestyle for weight loss and for the health benefits. It's practiced-- There's that circadian word. I don't know if that's the right word for this. It’s practiced with a daily fast, and if it seemingly not working, I believe for most people, the sustainable answer is not to necessarily fast more, that there's much more potential that can be achieved by tweaking what you're eating, and then continuing with the same amount of fasting. The phrase more is better or more isn't better, I think it's just because we're trying to discourage this idea that if people aren't getting the results that they desire, the automatic thought is, “Oh, I just need to fast more.” That's just a slippery and misleading slope, because that's probably not the answer, and it can often backfire. So, I think that's what we're trying to discourage people from falling into.  

When it comes to longer fasts, I think they're really great. I don't think that their “purpose” is the purpose that people who find themselves in the situation turn to them for. So, like Gin said, they're not for weight loss.  

Gin Stephens: Well, the ADF is for weight loss.  

Melanie Avalon: Sorry, yeah. I'm talking about longer fasts, like multiday fasts.  

Gin Stephens: Extended, when you get out of the ADF paradigm, yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, this is not ADF. I’m talking about extended fasting, I think they have a lot of benefits, things like complete digestion resets, or stem cell activation, or cellular cleanse, kind of things like Dr. Valter Longo talks about with his work, it's not for weight loss. That's my thoughts on the extended fasting. It's more for like healing. 

Gin Stephens: Right. Extended fasting, not for weight loss. Alternate daily fasting, great for weight loss. But you have to feel good in the pattern. How do you know it's not right for you? If you ever start feeling the urge to binge, that's a sign that what you're doing is not right for you and your body, it needs you to switch it up. 

Melanie Avalon: It's a thing for me where I probably don't recommend ADF. I could recommend it as something to try, but I can't recommend it with a passionate testimonial, because for me, it doesn't work for me. But it is something to try, and I'm not against it in any way. Gin and I both have sections on it in our books. 

Gin Stephens: I actually did it for a couple months back in 2016. Yes, in the spring of 2016, it was right after The Obesity Code came out. The reason I switched to it is because, you read The Obesity Code, and in the back, that's what he's got. It's alternate daily fasting. I'm like, “Oh, that's what he has in the back. I'm going to try that now.” [laughs] So, I did it. It's a great strategy for lowering insulin even more, because you're fasting longer, and then you have that up day that keeps your human metabolism from adapting. So, it's a great strategy if you know you're insulin resistant, and you really want to target that, or if you've been doing the daily eating window approach, and you feel like your body might have adapted. Let's say, you felt great on 23:1, and you've been doing 23:1, and it's been wonderful, and you've done it for a few months. Then all of a sudden, oop, scale is at a screeching halt, you're not losing any more weight, you may need to shake it up with there's a little bit of an alternate daily fasting approach. That doesn't mean you have to do full on every other day. You could throw in a couple of down days a week followed by a couple of up days, and that might be enough to get that metabolism going. Again, the up days are so important when you're doing that.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I'm really glad we got this question from Allie though, because I think it's nice to clear up our thoughts on all of this. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because sometimes, we can say something and people interpret it. “Oh, well, you don't like ADF," but that's not it at all.” Somebody sent an email, we’re not answering it today, but just this past week, where they like said, I was hostile to keto or something-- [laughs] Did you read that one? That's so interesting that someone has listened in and come away with the idea that I'm hostile to any eating style, because I'm not. Just because an eating style doesn't work for my body, doesn't mean I don't believe it's completely right for somebody else's body. So, every time I say that keto didn't work for me, that is not me secretly telling somebody that it was not going to work for them. 

Melanie Avalon: Same with me. What I was saying earlier about vegetarian, I don't think it works for a lot of people, but if it works for you, it works for you. I think Gin and I both are just about finding what works for you, and we're not wedded to you doing any one thing. 

Gin Stephens: I think it's the difference between if people are just listening to the podcast versus if they've read my books. If you've read the books, you can say, “Oh, she does talk about ADF in there and recommend it,” or “Oh, she does say find the way that works for you, and if you're insulin resistant, you may need to lower your carbs.” So, if you just hear the title of my book, Delay, Don't Deny or hear me say keto didn't work for me, you might be really confused. [laughs] I've got a lot more behind the scenes in the books.  

Melanie Avalon: Yep. Context and nuance.  

Gin Stephens: Absolutely, yes. 

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode231. The show notes will have a full transcript and links to everything that we talked about. You can also get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike, and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I'm @melanieavalon, and Gin is @ginstephens, and I think that is all the things. All right. Anything from you, Gin, before we go? 

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it and I'll talk to you next week.  

Melanie Avalon: I will talk to you next week. Bye.  

Gin Stephens: Bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

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