Welcome to Episode 268 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.
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Listener feedback: Scott - Dry mouth
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Listener Q&A: Leah - Urine pH
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Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 268 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. And no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
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Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 268 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow. How are you today, Cynthia?
Cynthia Thurlow: I'm doing well, my friend. How are you?
Melanie Avalon: I'm very good. I'm excited to hear we were just talking before recording about how you're going to be speaking at KetoCon. Would you like to tell listeners a little bit about that?
Cynthia Thurlow: It's exciting. They haven't had KetoCon in two years because of the pandemic and so some of my absolute, favorite humans in the health and wellness space are going to be there. People like Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, and Chris Irwin, and Ben Azadi, and Anna Cabeca, and Mindy Pelz, and all sorts of humans. I am going to be the first speaker on the first day, and I'm doing a book signing, and I'm doing a couple other things, a little Q&A. And so, I'll have an opportunity to actually see people up close and personal as opposed to its smaller events that I've been doing over the last year and a half. And Austin, such a great foodie city. For anyone who's been there, they have great restaurants and they generally tend to avoid inferior seed oils that you and I are both not fans of. It's always a location that I enjoy visiting. We actually have family there as well. But it'll be hotter than Hades, because it's Texas in the summer, but we will navigate lots of air conditioning, and I'm really excited to be going, and so, we'll make sure that we include-- I have a discount code if people would like to go to the three-day event, we'll include that in the show notes for everyone.
Melanie Avalon: What is the discount code?
Cynthia Thurlow: I think it's EWP, but I'll double check.
Melanie Avalon: Okay, awesome. We've had Anna Cabeca on the show twice, I think, on this show. So, listeners loved those interviews.
Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Anna's amazing. She is amazing.
Melanie Avalon: Out of our whole audience, I'm sure some people are going. Hopefully, they can see you. That'd be really, really exciting. I'm actually interviewing, well, hopefully, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon on Monday. This Monday, tomorrow.
Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I think your listeners are going to love her. She's so smart, she's coming out with a book next year, and she has such a fresh perspective on muscle protein synthesis and the value of muscle as an organ of longevity. I've just learned so much from her. In fact, I jokingly tell her, I quote her almost on the Daily, because she's made such a large impact on my own, not only on my own personal health journey, but also the information I share with women. I think your listeners will get a lot out of it. It'll really keep people thinking about how to be ensuring they're getting enough protein into their diets, because she did her residency and her training, working with gerontologic population. Older patients and so sarcopenia, which is this muscle loss with aging is a huge issue.
And ladies, it's not a question of if but when. It will happen if you don't do everything you can to work against it. The one thing that I think is really important to dovetail into this conversation is that insulin resistance starts in our muscles. It really reaffirms the need to consume enough protein, and make sure that you are getting enough rest, and your strength training. It's really, really important. It's not just for aesthetics. I think a lot of people assume that those of us that talk about this that we're just concerned about aesthetics. I'm like, "No, no, no. This is really about your health and understanding that metabolic flexibility really starts with your muscle physiology."
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think it is just so important. I think that insulin resistance starts at the muscle. It's such a paradigm shift because I think most people think it would be in the fat cells that we first become insulin resistant, but yeah, the role of muscle is just so, so huge. I think there could be a lot of benefit of people, because we're so fat focused, but there could be so much benefit if we shifted our focus more to supporting muscle. Even when it comes to diet, eating more protein and rather than cutting calories, or cutting fat, or cutting carbs, just focusing on the protein is huge.
Cynthia Thurlow: Because I know even in the work I do with women, we've been conditioned that we want to count calories, we want to count macros constantly, and I just say, "Listen, if you can aim for 100 grams of protein a day, everything else will fall into place" and that blows people's minds. Even, I'll use a good example. I don't know if I've told you this. My husband is the meal prep guy in our house, because he's an engineer. He doesn't mind spending two or three hours prepping protein. That's really the most important thing because we have teen boys. This morning, all of the normal things we would have in the house weren't here and so, I had leftover shrimp, I had leftover mahi mahi. I calculated how much protein was in this meal. I'm always trying at a minimum 40 to 50 grams in a meal because it's so important to me make sure in my two meals. I'm really pushing the envelope with protein a little lower than what I would normally eat, and my husband was laughing at me, and he was saying, "Yeah, I know. I completely flummoxed your meal prep today, because we had to go to the grocery store." Sometimes, I think you just have to make do with what you have. But for me, if I hit a certain threshold of protein intake, I'm very full and then I'm ready to eat four or five hours later.
Melanie Avalon: I think that is so important, especially, because we get a lot of questions from people who struggle with feeling full or just reaching satiety. It's really incredible if you just focus on the protein aspect. That's what I do. As I eat exuberant amounts of protein. I probably eat too much protein. I don't know. I'm going to ask Gabrielle that tomorrow.
Cynthia Thurlow: That'd be a great question for her.
Melanie Avalon: I do. I don't know. I think I texted you at the other day. It's over 200 grams definitely each night.
Cynthia Thurlow: That's amazing. And for ladies that are listening, this is because Melanie is at different life stage, like, if I ate 200 grams of protein, I probably would fall over and my stomach would explode. That's why I do a bolus in two meals and I generally can hit it. I met Gabrielle in 2020, sorry. The first thing she said to me is, "You probably don't eat enough protein." I looked her like she was crazy. Of course, she was right. Since then, I was like, "You made such an impression." I went home and started measuring how much protein I was eating and I was like, "She's right." Pushing those protein values like Melanie is a unicorn. Don't listen to what Melanie is saying and feel somehow, you're inferior. It's just she is it a different life stage. She can probably bolus her protein that way. I have to divide it between two meals, but always aiming for 100 grams a day. Somedays I hit 110, somedays, if I'm really good, I can hit on her 120, but that's always the goal, two big meals.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm so excited to talk to her about this and this is actually really helpful for me prepping for tomorrow because I'm thinking about what I'm going to ask her. Because I actually wonder about myself. I've been eating this way for so long. The reason I'm eating this way is because I had an epiphany like a decade ago. I'm a little bit embarrassed to say this, but the reason I did this was I realized, protein is the one macronutrient that is most likely to become muscle and least likely to become fat. I realized, "Oh, if I just eat protein, I can literally eat as much as I want, and probably lose weight," and that's what happened. But then I just started loving protein so much. I'm wondering if my body preferentially uses protein as its fuel source, which I don't think is, I don't know necessarily that's healthy. So, I need to talk to her about that aspect.
Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I can't wait to hear your conversation. She's just such a firmly science-based clinician and so smart. I was teasing her the other day because she's on all podcasts. She was just on Lewis Howes, and Drew Pruitt. Gosh, every day I turn around, there you are. [laughs] I love that she's getting information out there that all of us need. It's so, so important.
Melanie Avalon: How did you meet her?
Cynthia Thurlow: I met her at a conference. I was actually out in Portland, and we were on a panel together, and it was instantly, she was just one of these people I wanted to get to know and be friends with. I met her husband and her daughter. She now has another child, but just an instant connection. As I still do one of the first things she said to me, "You're probably not eating enough protein" and I was like, "What?" [laughs] After hearing her speak, I was like, "Oh, my God, I'm totally not eating enough protein."
Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm excited. And then one other little thing for listeners yesterday-- Was it yesterday? No, no, a few days ago, I interviewed Rick Johnson for this show. I can't wait. I'm not sure when we're going to release that episode, but that'll be very exciting for listeners to hear, because he just dived so deep into metabolic health, and insulin resistance, and fructose, and all these really cool things, and why our bodies naturally want to store fat based on our diet and lifestyle.
Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. Well, he's probably, I would say, I was just looking at my metrics on my podcast today and he is a top three downloaded podcast for the whole year, which is just incredible. I think it's because he makes the information accessible. You and I both know, there are a lot of researchers that are just brilliant, but they don't bring it down to a level where the average person has something, they can take away. They just go, I don't know what that person just said, [laughs] "I have to have-- Melanie needs to translate it or Cynthia needs to translate it." But his enthusiasm is infectious, and his book is wonderful, and I just-- For anyone that's listening, before we even recorded together, he read my book. I was so touched because I thought to myself, "Here is this very respected researcher, who's reading a book about fasting and women" and he had so many nice things to say. He's just a really nice human, who just happens to be kind, compassionate, smart, and as far as I'm concerned, utterly brilliant.
Melanie Avalon: I sent him my book, I think after I interviewed him, maybe. He sent me a picture and he was like, "Here it is on my shelf. I'm reading it." I was like, "Oh, my goodness, [laughs] I'm so honored." Yes. So, I think listeners will really, really enjoy that.
Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.
Melanie Avalon: Exciting announcement for listeners. We are actually going to do a giveaway for this episode. So, what all is included in the giveaway?
Cynthia Thurlow: It's products from one of my favorite pharmaceutical grade companies, Designs for Health and it's some of their special chocolates, and also some of my favorite products that they utilize. We thought it would be fun for people to participate in the giveaway. I think what we had talked about was, if you have purchased my book, we'd like you to leave a review, and screenshot, and share that with us, and we will enter you into the giveaway that will be sent to you, whoever is the lucky participant. But it's some of my favorite designs for health products, including things like inositol, which can be helpful for blood sugar regulation, as well as sleep support. And those chocolates, which are really interesting. Some of them have reishi in them, so medicinal mushrooms, not wacky mushrooms, medicinal mushrooms and some other things. So, really, it's a fun, a fun grouping of products.
Melanie Avalon: Awesome. We're going to put that picture for the giveaway on our Instagram today, the day that this episode airs. So, again, to enter to win that, go to Amazon. Amazon, or any other review, or what are the platforms?
Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, so, Target, Barnes & Noble, your local bookstore, wherever you purchased it from, you just need to screenshot the review, and share that with us, and we will enter you into the giveaway.
Melanie Avalon: So, to recap, friends, listeners, go to Amazon or wherever you review your books, write a review of Cynthia's incredible book, Intermittent Fasting Transformation, send a screenshot to email@example.com, and we will enter you into that giveaway, and instructions, and pictures of the giveaway, and such will also be on our Instagram. So, check that out. Our Instagram is @ifpodcast. And important note for that giveaway. It is open only to listeners in the continental United States. Okay, shall we jump into everything for today?
Cynthia Thurlow: Yes.
Melanie Avalon: To start things off, we have some listener feedback and this actually comes from Scott. It is feedback from a question which was pre-Cynthia. So, Cynthia, we got a question from a listener who really struggled with dry mouth and was looking for suggestions on how to deal with that, especially with fasting and things like that. Scott wrote in and he said, "Hello, ladies, on the April 11th episode, a question on dry mouth was asked. Here are two tips that helped me significantly. After coffee in the morning, coconut oil for 10 to 15 minutes." So, he's referring to oil pulling, not eating coconut oil.
Cynthia Thurlow: It's an important distinction.
Melanie Avalon: Do you do oil pulling, Cynthia?
Cynthia Thurlow: I don't.
Melanie Avalon: I do.
Cynthia Thurlow: I don't. I scrape my tongue. I use Primal Life Organics and I love their products. I don't, I don't I think for me, it's one extra step I just don't want to do.
Melanie Avalon: I do it. I remember when I started doing it, I was on-off, on-off because, I saw it as something like you just said, where something extra to do. But now, it's just so integrated in my routine that I do it while I'm-- because I eat really late, as listeners know. Every morning, I'm cleaning up the kitchen from the night before, unloading the dishwasher, and such. So, I oil pull while doing that. [chuckles] It's basically where you take coconut oil, or I use MCT oil, and you swish it around in your mouth, like Scott said, for 10 to 15 minutes. I think it's an Ayurvedic tradition. I know it's debated, but the thoughts are that it pulls toxins out of your mouth and potentially even bloodstream. Again, it's debated. I really enjoy it. He's saying that it might help dry mouth. Then he says, "He also oil pulls after each meal." I do not do that. Oh, and "he does one last oil pull right before bed." And then he says, "Lastly, if you have no breathing obstructions such as apnea, try mouth taping before sleep." Have you done in mouth taping?
Cynthia Thurlow: I have, but I'm not an obligate mouth breather, and I've actually had a sleep study, and I do not have sleep apnea. So, I've done it, but I didn't see an improvement. For me, I track my sleep on my Oura anyway. It gives me some degree of objectivity. But when I think about dry mouth, I start thinking about, "Are you taking a medication that's drawing your mouth out, like antihistamines?" I then think there are certain autoimmune issues that people can develop where they will get a dry mouth. And so, that's the direction my brain goes in. I think Scott's suggestions are really easy things to do upfront, while you're considering that maybe it's related as a side effect to a medication, maybe you're not drinking enough water, especially with electrolytes. I know we were just talking about Robb Wolf and I'm a huge fan of electrolytes. In fact, I would say that my HRV stuff has been off since I had surgery, which is not surprising and it was like, after two weeks, I was frustrated. I was like, "Okay, I'm doing all the things. Now, what do I need to--?" For the last three days, I've been really dedicated about electrolyte repletion, and my HRV numbers, and my sleep scores are improving. I have to believe that that's part of it. When I'm thinking about how this could pertain to Scott, I'm thinking about definitely thinking outside the box. But I love that he brought up oil pulling because that certainly doesn't hurt.
Melanie Avalon: Two thoughts to that. I'm glad you said that, because that jogged my memory about the original question. The woman who wrote in, she was on medications, which were non-negotiables for her at that moment and they were causing dry mouth. She was looking for ways to mitigate it while still being on the medication. And then the LMNT. I'm glad you brought that up. Did not play in this. They're actually a sponsor on today's show. So, listeners, listen for the ad in today's show, because our offer actually will give you a free sample pack. You can get some of those for free. I think our link is drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. Oh, and then the mouth taping, just really quickly, I know you and I both interviewed James Nestor. After I interviewed him, I tried mouth taping, but I didn't continue. I'm not a mouth breather as well. So, yeah, I've never done a sleep study though. Is it outpatient or inpatient?
Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it was a little device shows up at your house, and you do it, and then it uploads all the data, and then someone meets with you and evaluates. Mine was fine. It didn't suspect that I had sleep apnea, but my integrative medicine doc insisted I do it. Probably, based on my age, this is one of those things I'm like, "Based on your age, we should probably do those" and I'm like, "Okay." [laughs] So, I'm happy to report that I'm middle aged without sleep apnea.
Melanie Avalon: I have three questions for you about that. One, is the device uncomfortable in any way? Would it interfere with your normal sleep wearing it?
Cynthia Thurlow: No. It was a little electrode and then I had a little pulse oximeter. If anyone's familiar, it almost looks like a little clip you put on your finger. It's monitoring your heart rate, and your pulse rate, your oxygenation. No, it wasn't. Although, the instructions identify, if you toss and turn, you might impact the validity of the test, so I made sure, I'm a corpse sleeper, meaning, if you were to ask my husband, I don't really move around a lot at night. By the time I fall asleep, I either lie flat on my back or on my side. I don't really toss and turn much. But I would imagine if someone's a disruptive sleeper who's back and forth that they could potentially knock the apparatus off. But it was pretty benign. It wasn't as cumbersome as a traditional polysomnography test, where you're in an environment where you've got electrodes all over your body, and you're in a lab sleeping in a hospital bed, which of course is not at all akin to the average person really having a restful night's sleep under those circumstances.
This is probably a screening tool. If they're concerned about it, this might be a good screening tool, but it certainly is sensitive enough that if there isn't an indication that you're having periods of apnea, or hypopnea, or anything like that, that they can successfully rule out that you've got something significant. Plus, the other thing is, your listeners may or may not know this, but when I worked in cardiology as an NP, especially with men, if someone had a really big neck size, let's say, a size 17 shirt or greater, you assume they have sleep apnea until proven otherwise. Yeah, so, if someone has-- Even if it's a woman and they have a big neck, I'm going to be thinking about sleep apnea. Just one of those clinical pearls over the years that I learned. I used to, sometimes, I was like, "Do you snore when you sleep?" And people were like, "What?" I'm like, "Well, you have a big neck." And then as we get older, collagen and elastin don't work quite as well. And so, it's more common for people to get floppy in the back of their posterior pharynx, which can obstruct things or if they've got a deviated septum. I mean, there's a whole slew of things that can make you more prone to developing sleep apnea beyond just being overweight.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that was the reason I asked was because I've always been suspicious of the inpatient studies, because that just seems-- especially, if it's somebody who is already struggling with insomnia, it seems being in a foreign environment like that. It wouldn't naturally capture your normal sleep state. Being able to do it at home in a noninvasive manner, sounds pretty cool. I didn't even know that was an option.
Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I'm presuming they leave it for people that they think there's a low threshold for them actually having a positive test. I know in order for insurance to cover CPAP or BiPAP, which is the traditional technologies to address sleep apnea. Beyond the lifestyle stuff, you have to have a formal test. We actually had a sleep specialist in our practice that just that's all they did. [laughs] All day long was sleep studies and so, I would sometimes circulate to that part of the practice and would marvel at all the technology that goes on with it.
Melanie Avalon: So, is it measuring things beyond something that an Oura Ring would capture?
Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. You have electrodes everywhere. They've got a 12-lead EKG that's going on, they're looking at brainwaves. It depends on how sophisticated the environment is, but more often than not untreated obstructive sleep apnea puts you at risk for diabetes and high blood pressure. We know that if you're not properly oxygenating your body, it's a stressor and not in a good way. We used to always say like, "How many of these patients--?" Once we started treating their sleep apnea, their blood sugar got better, their blood pressure got better, they lost weight. And so, much to what I tell my female patients and clients is, "If I can't get you to sleep through the night, I can't get you to lose weight." And for a lot of people, it's oftentimes that missing link. If anyone's listening to this and they know they snore or they have periods of apnea, where they stopped breathing, you definitely want to connect with your internist and ask them to consider evaluation. Now, some internists will actually just order the test. Others want to refer you to a pulmonologist or a lung doctor, so that they can follow you.
Melanie Avalon: Wow, that is insanely helpful and it also reminded me of one super random, very quick tangent, I promise. But the jostling of the device, I was listening again to another Peter Attia episode, and he mentioned something that I have always wondered and didn't understand until now. This is his theory. I don't know if this is true, because he said, it was his theory. I'm not sure if this is actually what's happening. But why do you think when people put in a CGM that it takes a few days to be correct? how the first few days that they say it can be off?
Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, they tell you to throw the data away. I thought it had more to do with the device itself and trying to get acclimated, but is that due to people that are making changes because they then have the CGM.
Melanie Avalon: He said he thinks-- I thought it was as well what you said. He said he thinks it's because putting it in creates an injury to trauma in that area and that affects the use of glucose in that area. And so, it has to regulate. I was like, "Oh."
Cynthia Thurlow: When I think injury, I think-- [crosstalk]
Melanie Avalon: He said trauma.
Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's like a micro trauma? Yeah. I have to tell you, I generally think Peter's pretty brilliant. I'll have to think about that.
Melanie Avalon: I haven't googled it or researched it, but I was like, "That's interesting."
Cynthia Thurlow: No, I call it the Peter Attia rabbit hole, because sometimes he makes me think about something and I'm like, "All right, I need to process." And then after I process, I need to go down a couple rabbit holes and then I have to think more about it. But I think what's important is that we understand and consider that there might be different variables that impact how well a glucometer is reading things. Sometimes, I put on my CGM and I have to calibrate it. within 24 hours. My glucometer says one thing, and my CGM says another, and there's such a disparity. This one I have on beautiful, because I waited two and a half weeks after my surgery to even put it back on, because I just didn't want to know [laughs] what my body was doing. But I'm happy to report my blood sugar is looking pretty darn good.
Melanie Avalon: How often do you wear one?
Cynthia Thurlow: I wore it for about 18 months and then I needed a break.
Melanie Avalon: Who, whoa, whoa. I thought I was doing a lot.
Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Well, because I was fascinated with it. And then in March, I decided because of the book launch, I didn't want to know, because I'm the type of person I get excited when I do a podcast. I get excited when I do something when I connect with other people. Every time I would do an interview, my cortisol would go up, and my blood sugar would go up, and I could literally just watch these little micro spikes all day long, and I was like, "This is going to make me crazy." I took a two-month break and it was good. Now, I'm putting it back on and I'm like, "Okay, now, I'm ready to--" I've got two more upstairs. I'll do it for a little while and then I'll reassess. But I think it's helpful. I don't think you have to do it for 18 months, but I tend to be a data geek and I tend to really enjoy tracking information. But I acknowledge I don't stress about it. I just go, "Hmm, okay, what do I need to do differently today?"
Melanie Avalon: I probably wore one for maybe four or five months and then I haven't recently. I actually just reached out to NutriSense and asked them to send me some more, because I want to jump back on. But that was something else-- Because the episode I was listening to was, it was either the CGM episode or just a blood sugar episode. But he was talking about HbA1c, and blood sugar regulation, and he did mention similar to what you just said, and I think this is important for listeners to know. He said, the highest spikes he sees and he thinks are often possible for people actually aren't from eating. They're from things like exercise, from the liver shunting out glucose. High stress events can definitely cause things like that. He was actually suggesting, if it makes people uneasy or stressed about it like you were talking about with the launch, just not looking at that data during-- because you know why it's happening. So, you have to know yourself, and know your relationship with the data, and how it makes you feel, and what's the most healthy way to engage with it.
Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's important. It's interesting. So, listeners may or may not know this. I carb cycle. On Friday. I decided Friday was going to be my higher carb day of the week. I had some sweet potato. I was happy to see that I didn't get much of a glucose or blood sugar spike. It was a difference of I think it went up 25 points, but it came down almost immediately and that's really what you want to see. Not this prolonged elevation in blood sugar. For me, on higher carb days, I'm really mindful of what mitigates my blood sugar response, and I almost always start with protein, and then add in the carb, and it's interesting. Have you read Glucose Goddess yet, her new book?
Melanie Avalon: She's an author.
Cynthia Thurlow: She, I believe is a biochemist and her book is do doing really, really well. But she's a proponent of starting with vegetables first and then protein. I haven't gotten the book. I haven't ordered. It should arrive this week.
Melanie Avalon: It's a new book?
Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm. It's a new book and there a lot of people in the metabolic health space that are talking about it. I actually reached out to her, because I was like, "I'd love to interview you, I'd love to understand more about your book and your work, etc." But I think she's a biochemist. I think she's got a refreshing take and she's in Europe, I believe.
Melanie Avalon: Does she have a book before this or is this her first book?
Cynthia Thurlow: I thought this was her first, but it could be mistaken.
Melanie Avalon: I'm looking on Amazon right now. Is it how to be a Glucose Goddess?
Cynthia Thurlow: She's called Glucose Goddess, but I think-- What's the name of the book?
Melanie Avalon: Okay, yes. I just found it. So, it's--
Cynthia Thurlow: Glucose Revolution.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Glucose Revolution: The Life-changing Power of Balancing Your Blood Sugar by Jessie. I've no idea how you say your last name. Do you know how you say her last name?
Cynthia Thurlow: In-cha-chauspe. I don't know if she's French, but she speaks English really clearly. But I think she's French.
Melanie Avalon: It came out March 31st of this year and it already has 732 ratings five stars. Her endorsement is by Tim Spector. Have you heard back from her?
Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. She said yes and I'd be supposed to reach out to her. I was like, one of those things I wanted to make sure I mentioned it to you, because I know you would want to have her on your radar, too.
Melanie Avalon: Her other endorsement is from David Sinclair. Very cool. One of my favorites. I've to check it out and listen to your interview with her.
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Melanie Avalon: Going back to Scott, he had a quick PS. He said, "Also that ashwagandha and kefir have both been shown to help with dry mouth." Are you a fan of adaptogens, Cynthia?
Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, gosh, I use tons of them. I'm a huge fan. In fact, when my HRV was off and my readiness score was in the toilet, [laughs] I've been that way since I had surgery. I started tweaking with some adaptogenic herbs. And so, I'm a big proponent. I don't use them all the time, but clearly my body was still perceiving a significant stress response. I've been, again with the electrolytes last couple days, and then adding in. There's an herbal blend that I will sometimes use by Designs for Health that has got a little bit of licorice root, so it can be a little bit stimulative, it's got ashwagandha, it's holy basil. It's designed to be nourishing to the adrenal glands. To me, it's not at all stimulating. I don't take that if I feel I need an adrenal glandular, but I do love adaptogens. They're plant-based compounds, if people are unfamiliar with them. But to me, it's a really nourishing way to help balance cortisol.
The really cool thing is that a lot of these adaptogenic herbs can help buffer cortisol if it's high and they can-- If your cortisol is low for some people, ashwagandha is a good example of this. It can do both. It can also be a little bit stimulating. That's the amazing thing with these plant-based compounds and that's why it's also important to work with someone that understands how a lot of these plant-based compounds worked. But to me, it's one of the easiest ways to provide adrenal support and stress support in the body, and it could be as simple as drinking holy basil tea. You don't even have to make it complicated, it doesn't have to be in a capsule form. There's a lot of different ways, a lot of different ways. I love teas in particular. There's a friend of mine, who's a master herbalist and an acupuncturist, and she has a company called Striving for Health. She makes the most amazing tea blends. I used to be able to see her in person, but I order her teas as gifts all the time, because people really enjoy them.
Melanie Avalon: I know. People are going to ask, "Are these teas okay for the clean fast?"
Cynthia Thurlow: It depends on which tea you're looking at. A lot of them have got different components, because she's a master herbalist, she pulls different things together. There are a couple, but I always say, when in doubt, just have it when you break your fast or have it before bedtime. Most of her herbal teas are not caffeinated. If they are, she is very clear about identifying which ones are. She's got some for immune support, she has some for stress, she has some that she calls them like love. It's not meant they don't boost your libido, but they're very calming and so, you can definitely check out her products on her website. It's really high-quality teas, and she sources very carefully, and she's a bit OCD. She used to have CBD products that were phenomenal. I think with the pandemic, it really changed her business model a bit. I think those are now on hold, but she really has some beautiful, beautiful tea as if people are tea drinkers or just want to try different things. One thing about tea, people may or may not know, a lot of it's contaminated. So, you always want to make sure you're getting from a good source, whether it's organic or working with a master herbalist, who knows a lot about where they're sourcing their products from.
Melanie Avalon: The adaptogen, I've had the most success with personally, at least, because I think something to understand is that we're all unique. And so, different adaptions might work for different people. The one that always works for me really well was rhodiola. I just respond well to that one.
Cynthia Thurlow: It's interesting. I've only had one patient who didn't do well with rhodiola. Generally, it's very nourishing. You take it before bed, it's very calming, it helps buffer cortisol. There was some genetic SNP. I forget what it was. But she took it in and she was like wide awake all night long?" I was like, "Oh, my God, I've never seen this happen." But yeah, we'll have to do a podcast and we'll dig into the adaptogens, because they're really fascinating. And how some are better before bed, some are better if you need things to be stimulating. There's really good research on ashwagandha and maca. Those are two that I generally say are-- there's enough research on both of them to feel comfortable saying. You can go, pull research, and look at the effects in women, and it's fascinating.
Melanie Avalon: Do you have thoughts on--? I remember when I was in my adaptogen research crazy phase people will say that ashwagandha is a nightshade. Have you heard that?
Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. And so, if you're sensitive to tomatoes, and potatoes, and peppers, you want to be careful with ashwagandha. To be fair, it's in that family. If you don't tolerate eggplant, and white potatoes, and peppers, you might want to be careful with ashwagandha.
Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay. Shall we go on to our next question. Thank you for the feedback, Scott. That was really helpful and inspired a lot of tangents. Shall we go on to our first question?
Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. This is from Maria. Subject is: "Struggling with intermittent fasting." "I have been fasting for approximately five months, but I am struggling. I started with 16:8 and I've worked my way to fasting 20 to 22 hours a day. I have done two 24-hour fasts. I have Raynaud's, which makes fasting difficult on some days because I get so cold and it is hard to get the blood flowing in my hands. On a recent visit to my doctor for my annual exam, my blood work showed a positive result for inflammation specifically RA and ANA. I have an appointment with a specialist soon. I feel better than I did when I was eating all the time and I've lost a few pounds, but I'm not really seeing any changes in my body. Although, I'm not going to give up on fasting, I'm feeling discouraged. I know the process is different for everyone because everyone's body is different, and has different needs, and I keep reminding myself to let the process work. But I'm wondering if I need to tweak what I'm doing and what that should look like. I'm basically eating whatever I want during my window including sweets. I used to work out all the time, but I have not since school started in August. I hope to get back to it this spring. I am not sleeping well and I definitely do not feel energetic. Could I be one of those that will need to modify my diet, looking for some guidance on what to do? I don't want to give up on fasting."
Melanie Avalon: All right, Maria. Well, thank you so much for your question. I've always said Raynaud's. Is it Raynaud's, or Raynaud's, or--?
Cynthia Thurlow: We used to call it Raynaud's. And so, it's a vasospasm in the fingers.
Melanie Avalon: I used to struggle with that pretty badly. I think a lot of people don't realize that it's considered to be an autoimmune condition as well, which makes sense. It might tie in to your blood work that you got back about autoimmune indicators. I think this question is really important because they think there's a-- When she says at the end, "Could I be one of the few that will need to modify my diet? I think there's this big misconception in the fasting world that fasting is the be all end all. It will magically solve everything and that your diet choices don't matter. I just feel so strongly that your diet choices do matter and especially, if you're struggling with autoimmune conditions. With autoimmune conditions, your immune system is reacting to things and it has misidentified certain proteins in your body as being problematic, and having an immune attack on those, and that can very intensely be linked to dietary choices, and what you're eating, encouraging that, or sparking that, or keeping that going. Because I've had a lot of episodes on autoimmune issues, and elimination diets, and stuff.
I would check out my interview with Dr. Will Cole for his book, The Inflammation Spectrum, because we really dived deep into autoimmune conditions and how they start-- By the time you see antibodies on your results, that was a long time coming. They don't just pop up overnight. That episode, the show notes are at melanieavalon.com/inflammation. 0
You don't need to give up on the fasting, because the fasting is not working. It is that's probably something else you're doing is not working. [chuckles] I don't think you are one of the few that needs to modify your diet. It's just my personal opinion. I think a lot of people will thrive when they find the diet that best suits them. This can be very empowering Maria, because there's so much potential here for change, especially since you haven't made any changes in what you're eating. There is so much potential here. I think you can make radical shifts, if you find the diet that works for you and figure out what's exacerbating these conditions. Oh, and I want to bring up to the Raynaud's. My Raynaud's went away when I adopted-- I was low carb, but I wasn't "paleo." I was still eating a lot of processed foods, a lot of gluten, even additives, and a high-fat, low-carb diet, and I had Raynaud's. When I switched to paleo, and cut out the additives, and just ate a diet of Whole Foods, fruit, vegetables, meat, my Raynaud's went away. So, there's a lot of potential. Do you have thoughts, Cynthia?
Cynthia Thurlow: I do. The first thought is, once you have one autoimmune issue, you're more prone to them again. Autoimmune issues almost always speak to hyperpermeability of the small intestine aka leaky gut. So when I think about, we already know she's got some type of inflammation. She's not sleeping well, she's eating a lot of sweets. She mentioned that she's eating sweets. This is not a judgment. I'm just pointing out what she shared with us. I think this really speaks to we need more information. When she sees that specialist, who I'm assuming is going to be a rheumatologist very likely. They may or may not talk to her about nutrition, but the lifestyle piece is critically important. You got to dial in on the sleep. And in fact, in my book, I talk a lot about the fact that if you can't sleep through the night, your body's not in the position to be able to add the hormesis or the hormetic stressor of fasting. This isn't to suggest 12 hours a day isn't great. That's a great starting point. But this is absolutely, positively. I don't know how old Maria is. She's perimenopausal, menopausal. We don't respond to stress the same way.
My first recommendation would be, obviously, you're going to see that specialist which I think is great. You're already prone to developing another autoimmune issue. That's number two. Number three, you got to dial in on the sleep and the nutrition. I love Melanie's suggestion about looking into Dr. Will Cole's book, The autoimmune-- When we look at autoimmunity and we're looking at diets that re going to reduce inflammation in the body. It's pulling out the most inflammatory foods. Gluten, and grains, and dairy, and sugar, and alcohol, and really looking at your relationship with each one of those, if that's triggering, if that is bothersome to hear, really looking at like, "Well, maybe I'm eating the sweets, because I'm so tired, because my body's not getting the degree of nourishing sleep that it really needs." And so, that's really a great starting point. Start with the lifestyle piece, but the sleep, if you are not sleeping through the night and that's the way it is consistently, you have to address that first. Because we know based on research what is happening in your body when you're not getting restorative sleep, we know that it leads to blood sugar dysregulation, it leads to issues of leptin and ghrelin, which are these hunger and satiety hormones. You don't make good choices when you're sleep deprived. You're not going to crave broccoli, you're going to crave sweets because your body's looking for a quick fuel source. So, definitely keep us posted. But when I read that, those are the things that stood out to me.
Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad you brought up the sleep aspect. It's interesting. I was recording my intro, because the episode is releasing, I think in two weeks on my other show is with Dr. Michael Breus. I released one episode with him about sleep, but this is a Part 2. When I was recording the intro, I made the statement that I think sleep is, out of all the health things, the thing that I think about the most or most prioritize. I said it and then I was like, "Is that a true statement?" Because I think a lot about fasting, I think a lot about diet, but it is. I think sleep is so, so important. So, I'm really glad you brought that up.
Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. And I love Dr. Breus. He's another person that I think of like Rick Johnson, whose enthusiasm for what he does is infectious.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, he's so enthusiastic. All right. We have a question from Jessica. I'm really excited about this question. This came in and I was like, "Cynthia, would you be able to speak to this?" She said, "Yes, so." I was excited. The subject is: "Botox." And Jessica says, "Hi, Melanie. Welcome, Cynthia. I believe I've listened to all of the IF podcasts and I don't think I've heard any Botox discussion. Could IF I make my body metabolize Botox quicker? It usually lasts about three months. I have some non-IF friends, who have Botox that lasts longer, closer to four to five months. We go to the same plastic surgeon. So, same Botox supply, same Botox areas and injection procedure. I'm 40 years old, very healthy overall. I've done IF for two years and now I'm in maintenance mode. I'm 5'6" and I weigh 135 pounds. I've only been doing Botox for the last year. I don't know how my body would have reacted to Botox with no IF. I'm also curious on your thoughts on Botox in general. Do the two of you do Botox? I know it's a personal question, but I trust the two of you so much and would love any insight on the risk versus reward. I will say it makes me feel good when I look in the mirror, which is just one piece of the puzzle for my overall wellbeing. Thank you."
Cynthia Thurlow: This is a great question. I will be happy and transparent with everyone, and say that I have used Botox for about 12 years. I initially started using it because I have a very hypermobile forehead and it just bothered me. I also have one eyebrow that sits a little lower than the other. I think that Botox is fine for people to utilize. I think it really requires a very precise application, because no one wants to look like the real housewives who are over Botoxed, and overfilled, and over plumped. I think on a lot of levels-- I'm very transparent about this on social media because people are shocked when they hear me talk about. I said, "There's no shame, if you decide to use Botox." I've never had a bad situation with Botox. I've always gone to the same provider, who's in Northern Virginia and is arguably one of the most talented providers I've ever met in my entire life. I think there's nothing wrong with doing Botox.
Obviously, I was middle aged when I started using it. The irony is that my Botox doesn't last as long as my friends does. The general school of thought because I've talked to plastic surgery friends of mine, I've talked about this with my own provider, and they think there are just some people who metabolize the Botox toxin faster than others. It isn't always in thinner, fitter people. Sometimes, it can be in heavier people. I think that's really speaking to our own physiology. Actually, what I do now is what we affectionately refer to as baby Botox. I do very small increments, but I do it more frequently and that's worked better for me. That's actually lasted longer than when I was doing, I don't know, 20 to 30 units every six months. Now, I do about half of that and do it more frequently. And that has worked well. I don't want to have a frozen face, I don't have any desire to pretend that I'm not a 50-year-old woman, but I even looked into research to see if there's anything to suggest. There's an association with being a faster metabolizer. There was nothing that I was able to locate, but I think this is probably just what makes you unique.
Jessica and I share the same issue. I think on a lot of levels that the more often those of us that are on platforms that are connecting with a large variety of men and women, the more transparent we can be. We can destigmatize talking about these kinds of things. I think there's absolutely no shame. If you choose to get filler, or you choose to get Botox, or you just choose to get a laser, or whatever it is you decide to do, there's no judgement. I think we each have to decide what works best for us. I just build this into my discretionary budget that I use. I just say, "Okay, every eight to 10 weeks this is what I do." I do a little bit of Botox at a time, and that works a whole lot better for me, and it ends up being the same amount of money, because I'm not doing as large of a dose. I'm just doing a little bit at a time and that's worked better for me. How about you, Melanie?
Melanie Avalon: I have not done Botox. I've been interested in doing it, actually. One of my friends said she did it. Well, she's done it in her face and then she did it for TMJ or I know it's not TMJ. It's TM. The right acronym is different. TMJ is actually just the name of the joint.
Cynthia Thurlow: Well, that inflammation or people that have migraines still use it therapeutically.
Melanie Avalon: I clench my jaw and I get inflammation there. She said, "It's been a complete game changer getting it in her jaw actually." I'm glad to hear that you went into the research on the fasting. I probably would have thought that it speeds it up, but it's interesting to hear that there's not really any research. I was of the same opinion that people are so different. Some people metabolize things much faster than others and it's just really unique. I cannot agree more about the stigmas. I echo what you said and then what Jessica said, where she said that it's one piece of the puzzle for her overall wellbeing. I find it really ironic that and maybe I'm going to go on a soapbox, but we don't stigmatize makeup. And that's arguably changing your appearance. The only difference is that it's temporary and you can wash it off.
Cynthia Thurlow: Or, how's it different than a filter? That's the one thing I struggle with this a little bit, because I'm obviously 50 years old and listeners may hear me say this more than once that there's so much [smoke and mirrors, and it's not unique to any one age group. But there's absolutely nothing wrong if you want to get your hair highlighted, or you want to go to the gym and exercise, or you choose to use an injectable, or you want to get your teeth whitened. I think of it all on a similar continuum, although, I do find and I'm sure you probably see this on social media. Sometimes, if someone looks really good for their age, they just assume they have to had done something to themselves. I think that's unfair. There are some people who are just unicorns and they look great, probably rolling out of bed. But the rest of us may require a little bit of, I don't want to use the word, smoke and mirrors. We might require a little bit of makeup or we might require-- Maybe we've got Spanx on underneath their dress. These things that make us feel good about ourselves. It's not for external validation. It makes us feel better.
Melanie Avalon: If we're going to stigmatize cosmetic surgery fillers, Botox, I honestly think it should be in the exact same bucket as filters on Instagram, makeup, even the clothing you choose to wear, because all of it is be at the motive to make yourself feel more attractive for yourself or for other people. The motive is making you feel better in your own skin and your actual appearance. And so, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think people should just do what makes them feel good. Yeah, I have no issues with it at all. I do think it's really important to do your research and make sure you're working with practitioners, so that you'll be happy with it. So, it doesn't become something that you obviously regret.
Cynthia Thurlow: We don't want anyone to look like a muppet. That's my general gestalt. I have teenage boys and sometimes, they'll ask if they see something on TV or in a print ad. They'll say, "What's wrong with that person's face?" I'm probably going to guess they used a little too much filler." There's no judgement, but to each his own about what works for you and what aligns with you philosophically and otherwise. I just think the world is a better place when we don't pass judgment on one another and we just accept that we may have different opinions about a lot of different things.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And with the judgment piece, what does it matter? What does it matter what somebody else looks like? [chuckles] Why do we have to judge them or even have a feeling about that either way? It's people's personal life.
Cynthia Thurlow: I think people get triggered, and then they get nasty, and they're keyboard warriors, and--
Melanie Avalon: Projection.
Cynthia Thurlow: Exactly, exactly.
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Melanie Avalon: All right, shall we answer one more question?
Cynthia Thurlow: Yep. This is from Leah. "Hello, I was introduced IF via Gin's book, Fast. Feast. Repeat by one of my best friends three weeks ago while I was visiting her. I quick read through two thirds of it while I was there. I agree with everything I saw so far and started IF that very day. Now, I'm binging the podcasts. Melanie, I just discovered you have a separate one like Gin does and will be starting that one very soon along with searching out your book, What When Wine. I'm on episode 104-ish of this one. I vaguely recall an episode with a guest. I think that mentioned testing urine pH or maybe it was in the Stories Podcast, but can't really remember what the pH is supposed to ideally test as alkaline or acidic, nor what this indicates.
I have a matchbook pH strips that I ordered immediately after hearing about such an easy and inexpensive way to test things, but ADHD and can't remember what I'm testing my pH for. Could you all shed some light on this, and maybe go into the science behind it or something? You both explain things so well and in layman's terms, so it makes sense to all of us listening. I did have another question originally, but I wanted to catch up on the present before asking. And although, I'm only a third of the way through the episodes, they've all been answered in the podcast so far. Joovv, Dry Farm Wines, and the bone broth people, I'll hear the name next podcast, LOL. All sounds awesome and I intend to give each one of them my business as I'm able and when I have the freezer space. Thanks for such awesome recommendations. Much appreciated. Leah."
Melanie Avalon: All right, Leah, thank you so much for your question. Perfect timing. The guests that you're referring to was Dr. Anna Cabeca, who we were talking about earlier. We'll put a link in the show notes to the episodes that we've had with her. But so, basically, the idea with urine testing for pH is that our bodies need to maintain a certain pH in the blood. I just asked Cynthia on it. She said, "It was what 7.35 to--"
Cynthia Thurlow: 7.45.
Melanie Avalon: 7.45. Here's the thing. People will often make the argument that your food choices and everything don't matter, because we don't really see a change in the blood pH, because our bodies buffer it accordingly, which tends to be true. When you measure your blood pH, you're usually not going to see it outside of the parameter that needs to be in. If you're eating a really acidic diet, for example, your body has to do things to buffer that acidic load and create the more alkaline state that needs to be in. That requires certain minerals and nutrients. Those have to come from somewhere. It's a stressful process for your body to maintain the pH that needs to be, if the diet that you are eating doesn't quite support that. The place that you can see that, because again, measuring your blood, it's probably not going to show up in your blood. You can see it in your urine, because that's where you're going to see the metabolic byproducts of that process. Measuring your urine with a pH strip can show you if your body actually is "more acidic." And again, the confusing thing about it is your body's actually not acidic, because your body is mitigating it but it's a stressful process that can be pulling minerals and such from your bones, for example, so eating a diet that supports a healthy pH state and they often call it an alkaline diet can support that.
And then there's a lot of controversy around that because there's a difference between-- If you go online and you google alkaline versus acidic foods, you're going to get a lot of different lists. Because some people will say, the certain foods are alkaline and acidic based on the actual food itself. Some people go by the PRAL score, which I think is more important and that's the potential renal acid load and that actually speaks to the metabolism of those foods and the resulting acidic or alkaline effect it has based on the ash that is created from those foods. I would go by those lists. You can just actually google PRAL, P-R-A-L. We can actually put a link in the show notes. There're some pretty good lists online. But yes, so, the purpose of the pH is to see if your body is more easily maintaining the pH that it needs to be at. What are your thoughts on that, Cynthia? I might have screwed some of that up.
Cynthia Thurlow: No, I think you did a beautiful explanation. When I think about pH and obviously, my backgrounds in ER med in cardiology. We did arterial blood gases. We were looking at really minutia of information on people who are very sick. I think that testing urine pH is certainly reasonable to be looking to see if you're leaning more alkaline or acidic. I think what's most important is that you're really leaning into a healthier, less processed diet. Lots of polyphenol rich foods, if you tolerate-- I start thinking about eat the rainbow along with less processed meats, eggs, fish, etc., you're going to more naturally lean towards an alkaline-based methodology. Do I routinely check my urine?" No, but my integrative medicine doc every once in while wants me to check. I have these strips in my house. You can buy on Amazon and it's very easy to do. I use it as a check in. I can pretty much tell you that I exist in an alkaline state more often than not, but if I were to eat too much dark chocolate or if I ate a bunch of processed food, I'm sure I'd probably lean more acidic. But I don't think anyone should worry or stress about this too much, because our body does a great job of buffering. We have bicarbonate, we have things in our bodies that are designed to buffer pH. There's a whole methodology in our respiratory system and our kidneys really do a nice job fine tuning this. So, don't put a lot of stress into it. I'm so glad that you are enjoying Gin's book. And yeah, there's so much goodness in this podcast. I'm glad you're enjoying it.
Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Yeah, I've actually also heard, I don't know if this is true, but we actually talked about this before on the show when I was going down my rabbit holes of researching pH and alkaline and acidic states. People will say that the reason you sigh after a big meal is because one of the methods of offloading, because you're talking about all the different ways that we buffer that acidic load is actually through our breath. I don't know if that's the case, but it actually makes sense to me.
Cynthia Thurlow: Well, you saying the lungs and the kidneys are what provide the buffering, whether it's alkalosis or acidosis. When you look at results from an ABG, it can show you how the body is trying to compensate and it's really cool. Back in my critical care days, I loved diving into all the science behind that. But the body really is very sophisticated. Unless you have a kidney problem or you have a respiratory problem, your body works very, very hard at fine tuning your blood pH and pH in your body overall because we know for homeostasis it's really important that we keep things in this very narrow parameter.
Melanie Avalon: I know we're running out of time, but even something-- Because when talking about how our body regulates things, it really is impressive. For example, calcium, people could be following a pretty low-calcium diet. I don't want to make absolutes. But if you go to the doctor and test your blood calcium, it's probably still going to be fine. It's really impressive what the body can do. Even when you think about blood sugar, I know we talk about people's blood sugar spiking. Even the massive spikes that we think of, if you compare that to the amount of sugar people are taking in that led to that, it's really impressive that the body even keeps it at numbers that we would think would still be really high. I think we see that with people who have type 1 diabetes because that's when they will get blood sugars that are even in the five hundreds or something. It's like, "Oh, so, this is what would be happening if the body actually couldn't regulate."
All righty, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email firstname.lastname@example.org or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. A reminder to listeners to definitely enter the giveaway that we talked about in the beginning of the episode that was to win an awesome collection of goodies from Cynthia's team, supplements and some really fun things. Check out our Instagram, @ifpodcast.com to see what you can win. And again, to enter, write a review of Cynthia's book, Intermittent Fasting Transformation on Amazon, Target, Barnes & Noble, wherever you got the book from. Send a screenshot to email@example.com and we will enter you into that giveaway. This is open to listeners in the continental United States only.
And then some more resources for you guys before we go. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode268. The show notes will have links to everything that we talked about as well as a full transcript. So, definitely check that out. You can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon on Instagram and Cynthia, I promise, Sunday, I'll remember your handle. Wait, let me try, let me try @_cynthia_thurlow.
Cynthia Thurlow: @cynthia_thurlow_. I know and for everyone who's listening, it is innately frustrating, because I was not able to have the same name across social media. So, yeah, my team even scratches their head. It's @cynthia_thurlow_ and I have a blue check, so, you'll be able to find me.
Melanie Avalon: Yes, you're very easily findable. So, that's good. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.
Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds great.
Melanie Avalon: Bye.
Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.
[Transcript Provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]
STUFF WE LIKE
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Cynthia's Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com
Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com
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