Welcome to Episode 373 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
BUTCHERBOX: Grass-fed beef, organic chicken, heritage pork, wild-caught seafood, nutrient-rich, raised sustainably the way nature intended, and shipped straight to your door! For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get bone-in chicken thighs, top sirloins, or salmon—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!
Schwank Grill: We love protein, and you can achieve the best grilling with Schwank Grills, featuring state-of-the-art infrared technology used in the world's best steakhouses (including Ruths' Chris and Morton's)! These grill create perfectly seared, steakhouse-worthy results every time. Make every cookout a special occasion with this ultimate grilling experience! Visit schwankgrills.com and use promo code IFPODCAST to get $150 OFF a Schwank Grill!
LUMEN: Lumen is the world’s first handheld metabolic coach: a device that measures your metabolism through your breath, to let you instantly find out if you're burning carbs or fat! The Lumen app also gives you tailored guidance to improve your nutrition, workouts, sleep, and even stress management! If you want to take the next step in improving your health, go to lumen.me and use code IFPODCAST to get 15% off your Lumen!
To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!
SHOW NOTES
BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get bone-in chicken thighs, top sirloins, or salmon—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!
SCHWANK GRILL: Visit schwankgrills.com and use promo code IFPODCAST to get $150 OFF a Schwank Grill!
LUMEN: If you want to take the next step in improving your health, go to lumen.me and use code IFPODCAST to get 15% off your Lumen!
Listener Q&A: Andrea - What’s the truth about occasional long fasts (36hrs-48hrs)?
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #126 - Azure Grant
Listener Q&A: Michelle - Does taking glutathione break a fast?
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #171 - Dr. Nayan Patel
Visit MelanieAvalon.com/auro and use the code MelanieAvalon, for 5% off. Also add the code Auro10, for an additional 10% off!
Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 373 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode 373 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. What is new in your life, Vanessa? Well,
Vanessa Spina:
I've been on this high from doing OMAD again, intermittent fasting. That's sort of been the biggest thing. And I'm also excited about some new testing I've been doing on my blood sugar. Those are like the things that excite me right now, but we're going on a fun getaway this weekend with two of my girlfriends here and their husbands and their kids who are the same age as Luca and Damian. We're going to this little, I think I told you about it last summer. We go every summer. It's this little fairy tale place. Yes, with the castles. Yes, it's a UNESCO heritage site and you don't really drive cars in there. So like you can spend the whole weekend there. So we're going with some friends. I'm so excited. And Luca is so excited because he gets to go with like basically his two of his best little buddies here. It was funny because you were asking me, you know, what, like, what did Luca and their friends, you know, what language they speak. And I was going to text you and be like, all my friends here are Americans. All of their kids speak English. Some of them speak like a bit of Czech as well. Like they know some of them no more than others. But yeah, all of my friend group here is pretty much they're all American expats. And then one of them is Australian. All my girlfriends are American. They're just living over here as like expats. So yeah, they all speak English with each other.
Melanie Avalon:
I know by the time this airs, it'll be way in the past, but I'm dying to know, was Luca, so he wasn't scared of the dinosaurs in the dina, in the dino.
Vanessa Spina:
No, it's funny. I was wondering if he was going to be scared. We went to this amazing dino park with all of our friends here and all their kids and the kids had the best time. And it was just, it was a lot of fun. Some of the kids are trying to get into like dinosaurs and stuff. But I thought he might be scared, but he wasn't. And there were a couple of parts. I was like, I'm kind of scared. He wasn't, you know, because they're, you know, huge animatronic dinosaurs and they were moving and like, it was so realistic. But yeah, they weren't scared. And then kind of remembered, like kids don't really have much fear, like maybe when they're older. But at this point, like they don't really, I don't think he really, I was saying to Pete, like, later that day, I was like, I don't think he knows what scared means. No, like, I don't think we've ever talked about that word or I don't think he's had an experience of that yet. So
Melanie Avalon:
That's so interesting. I only have like a few memories of being really scared as a child. The reason I was thinking about it is because I remember, I think my mom took me, do you know Six Flags? I've heard of it. I think my mom took me to Six Flags and I was really, really little. And I think it was around Halloween time and people were dressed up. And apparently I remember like freaking out and I remember us leaving like right at the beginning. So, and I have a distinct memory of being, do you remember when you were taught how to swim? I don't. I have a distinct memory of being taught how to swim and that did not go well. I remember they had to like, they like let us loose. They were like, do the spider crawl and like cling to the, yeah, I just remember thinking I was gonna die. Like my life flashed before my eyes. Yeah, that's really interesting. It makes me wonder what role does fear and parenting and nurture versus nature and, you know, how you react to your kids crying. And I don't know anything about parenting. So this is all me just like mumbling, but I'm really interested in what creates our perspectives of the world and how that is involved in parenting when you're young. Like does Luca cry a lot?
Vanessa Spina:
He has like a lack of emotional regulation, you know, for sure, at some point, but he's a very calm child. And I think a lot of it has to do with his diet and lifestyle. He only eats whole foods, he's never like consumed sugar, he doesn't eat any processed food. And, you know, I think it really contributes a lot to his stable mood, because I know he has very stable blood sugars. From what he eats, so he and we also don't do a lot of screen time. We noticed that screen time and consuming a lot of processed food, I think they both can cause a lot of issues with like tantrums and meltdowns and then combine together, they can also do that. So we just we don't do like restaurants and things like that. The only time that he's allowed to have screen time is if we have a long haul flight, like if we go on the airplane for like a long, like a, you know, 10 hour kind of situation. But otherwise, we just don't give him that. So I think it helps him be quite calm. And that's sort of what people say a lot about him. In general, he's just like an extremely calm child. So hopefully, the same thing will be the same thing with Damien.
Melanie Avalon:
And then you probably have the added benefit, so like on the long flights and stuff, so most kids if they've been consuming that content all the time, it's nothing really special for them. You can't like, you know, give it to them as like a special treat, but for Luca, like he doesn't normally get to do it as much, so I'm guessing that really helps with the long flights.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, but in general, like we we tend to just like do a lot of sticker books and activities even on the plane and he'll sleep.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, sticker books. I lived. I lived for sticker books.
Vanessa Spina:
Did you have a sticker album?
Melanie Avalon:
Do you remember the company Clutz Kids by chance? I think it was called Clutz. Clutz, they had all these different books. They had like science books and like craft books and all these books. They would always be at the grocery store on like a turning, like a, what's it called? The things that like twist around, kind of like when you're getting birthday cards. Like when you're getting birthday cards and they're on the thing that twists. I think it's called a turnstile.
Vanessa Spina:
Turnstile in Canada anyway
Melanie Avalon:
I loved those books and they had this big sticker book and I think I had three three like three or four and like years in a row from traveling like we would get that sticker book and man fun times it would just be like these big crazy things with stickers and you would just create things so much fun. What's new with you? Well related to that a little bit because I'm just thinking how much gratitude I have for people like you raising kids with that diet and you know the effects that it has on their health and the health of our future and I'm reading right now Dr. Michael Greger's book newest book are you familiar with dr. Greger? Yeah
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, but I haven't heard the most flattering things, probably from Dr. Sean Baker, and I think they kind of have a bit of an antagonistic...
Melanie Avalon:
situation? Yeah. So, um, he's probably one of the most famous vegan researcher advocates. I mean, he's up there. I'm like, I've been reading his work for, I mean, years and years. His books are so long, but what's interesting about it is he does so much research. So it's very persuasive, everything he says, because there are so many studies and I really respect him for that. I know it takes a lot of time. I'm very, I mean, I'm kind of mind blown that I'm going to be interviewing him because I've been following his work for so long, but there are so many questions I want to ask him when I interview him. I just want to ask him all the counter arguments to the typical vegan arguments about the role of animal protein and stuff and diet. And the way this all relates to what we were just talking about is because he makes so many arguments that the majority of health issues and problems are because of animal protein intake or meat, dairy, things like that. I just find it so interesting that if you look at the history of us, like humans, and even relatively recent, I'm just thinking like pre, so like pre -processed food industry, like we were eating meat, so that's not what changed. What changed was these processed foods, like that's what changed. And I find it really interesting that meat, especially in the vegan world, gets so demonized as the problem when maybe it's not that, like maybe it's the processed foods. And the reason I was thinking about it was what you're talking about with not giving, you know, not feeding your kids all these processed foods. Yeah, this interview, that was going to be really intense. Oh my goodness.
Vanessa Spina:
I just interviewed Dr. Vera Tarmen. I was mentioning it last episode, but I absolutely love her. And she's, you know, a medical doctor who's specialized in addictions. And she wrote Food Junkies. I don't know if you read that book. I haven't. It's amazing. She talks about how these ultra -processed foods, they generate levels of dopamine. And she talks about the units of dopamine that they release. And she talks about, like, how our physiology is adapted to having, say, like, 100, 200 units of dopamine, maybe 250 on, like, your wedding day or graduation, like, these special peak events where you have just such ecstatic feelings. And the processed foods give us these units of dopamine, like, cocaine, where you get, like, 400, 300, 400 units of dopamine. And it's so much that your body's not designed to be able to cope with that. And she talks about what happens to the receptors, and you get this up -regulation, down -regulation of the receptor sites. And basically how this processed food is, it's like any other drug, and how we have to start thinking of it as drug -like food. And I was talking to her about children, and I told her about what we do with our kids. And I'm like, sometimes I worry that I'm being too strict about it. And she said, but if you were talking about cigarettes, would you be like, I'm worried I'm being too strict by not letting Luca have cigarettes or not letting him have cocaine? I'm like, yeah, it sounds insane, right? But we do have to start reclassifying some of these foods because of the way they act on our body. Our bodies is so physiologically, you can actually measure it, what's happening, you know, to the body and how it affects the brain and how it creates this addictive pattern. And I also asked her, do you think that the standard American diet is basically creating food addicts? And she said, absolutely, because there's no way that you can meet those carb requirements without eating processed food. And that was my experience when I was vegetarian and vegan. In order for me to feel satisfied at the end of the day, I had to eat some processed food. You just can't only eat so much broccoli and cucumbers and whatever if you're not eating protein, like meat based protein, you can only eat so much tofu, like, eventually, you're gonna have to have some highly processed food. I do think we need to think of that food differently. And it would be very hard for me to interview someone like him because I feel like they're putting out harmful information. But I have to admire the fact that you're able to talk to people like that, who have such opposing points of view. And, you know, be able to admire their research and their work and everything. I remember Dr. Ted Neiman always says that there's like this U -shaped curve, where you really do well with, you know, optimal protein. And on the other side, eating very, very, very low protein can create also like a lot of I guess he was talking about maybe in the context of fat loss or something. But based on everything I've learned about body composition, and how I was when I was eating that way, like, I think you can lose a lot of weight, but I don't think it's all necessarily high quality weight loss.
Melanie Avalon:
I mean, I feel obviously very similar and part of me wonders because I've made a really conscious decision with the show to bring on people of completely different opinions. And I do because you were mentioning about him putting out false information and stuff and I do think about that sometimes and like am I like giving a platform to things I don't agree with? So it's like a fine line of, I think about this a lot, but I really do want to bring on people like that because I really want to hear what they have to say to what I am wondering or curious about or questioning about what they say. Like I want to know like what their answer is respectfully. So it's an exciting opportunity to interview them. It's going to be intense though. If I ever finish the book, the audiobook is like 20 hours, which is a long time, so we shall see. Okay. I will just give one little quick update. Hopefully by the time this comes out, hopefully, I think my third podcast should have launched because we're planning to launch it at the beginning of June. So hopefully the Mind Blown podcast is out there, friends and listeners. So check that out. As well, hopefully the spirit, my spirulina supplement should be coming out. We're figuring out the launch date right now. So we're hoping for beginning of July. So those are my updates. Any other updates or shall we jump into some things?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that sounds very exciting. I'm really excited to try your spirulina because I'm obsessed with it. I got Luca taking it every day with me. Yeah. And it's so cute because I call it the medicine because he had this whole thing where like Damien was getting medicine and he wanted medicines. I was like, you can have some medicine too. So every night, usually before I go to bed, I have chlorella and he's like, I want some medicine. So he comes, like sits on the counter with me and I usually give him two. So Catherine Anderson said, you can give them one tablet for every year of how old they are. So soon he'll be able to have three, but he has two spirulina tablets and he just crunches them up and he just eats them and he loves it. And it's so, it's great because I know he's getting, you know, such incredible nourishment from that in terms of the plant foods that we don't eat as much of, which is like also what makes me feel really good about taking it. And I know he doesn't need all the antioxidants as much, but he's just getting so much from it. And I just love like, it's our thing at the end of the day, like after this podcast, you know, I'll probably go and we'll go have our medicine. It's so cute. And she said, you know, one tablet is equivalent to the nutrients in one pound of vegetables or something. So, you know, as a parent, it makes me feel so good that he's having it.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay, first of all, that's like the cutest thing ever, the medicine, that's so cute. I was just sitting here smiling, oh my, giving him his medicine. Oh my goodness, that's adorable. I wonder why Catherine says there's a limit for that amount. I'm actually right now, we're signing off on the bag and everything. So I got the, I was like looking at the supplement facts on the back of the bag. It's shocking, the amount of nutrition and spirulina. So I'll just like tell listeners really quickly, for us, 30 tablets is a serving. I think energy, but that's the same serving size for them. So it's like, if you know energy bits, it's one of their single serving packets. That's what's considered a serving. So just that, well, it has four grams of protein, but it's a complete amino acid profile. So it has a hundred percent of your vitamin K, 27% of your B2, let's see, 3% B1, 6% B3, 3% B6, 625% of your B12, which is amazing, especially for people on plant -based diets, because those are typically lacking B12, but you can get that from spirulina and chlorella, has 53% of your iron, which is crazy to me. And chlorella, I think has even more. We will be launching a chlorella as well. But some other ones, like 86% of your chromium, has 8% of your magnesium, 8% selenium. It's just, it's crazy how rich it is. And then it also has, like you mentioned the antioxidants, it has these like random things like superoxide dismutase and has glutathione in it and GLA. So it really is like, I don't like the term superfood, but if I were to nominate a superfood for the superfood awards, I'd probably nominate spirulina, chlorella, they'd be up there. So yeah, it's exciting. I can't wait to send it to you.
Vanessa Spina:
you I can't wait to try yours and yeah I'd specifically take the chlorella because it has the K2 and I was low on K2 postpartum and also it helps boost Damien's K2 through breast milk because I have to give him K vitamin K drops every week so you have to do that for newborns if you choose not to get the shot after they're born so I always take the chlorella at night also because Katherine said it was amazing for detoxification and so I usually take the I take the spirulina when I open my fasting window I don't have it during the day because I don't consider it to be clean fast friendly even though that's been said but it has protein in it so I treat it as a superfood as you have protein superfood so I always have the spirulina at the start of my window and I have the chlorella right before bed and it helps a lot with detoxification pulling toxins out of your stored tissues and helping you excrete them by binding to them because of that hard cell wall
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's amazing for that. Now I'm, because I'm looking at our supplement facts, so like I said, it has 100% of vitamin K. I'll have to check if that's the K2 form. I'm assuming it is.
Vanessa Spina:
The spirulina has K, but the chlorella has a K2 from energy bits, but I'm not sure what it is with yours.
Melanie Avalon:
I'm making a note of this to research this so thank you because that's something I really I want to know personally so thank you
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, K2 really helps with blood clotting, which can be an issue postpartum, and it's a vitamin that I was lower in. You can also get it from an egg, just like you can get the B12 and choline and stuff. But if you're vegan, you're not getting eggs, or if you're not eating eggs every day, then it's really helpful. But for me, it's replaced, spirulina and chlorella have replaced my multivitamin. I mean, you look at the breakdown like it really can. It's not just a multivitamin, it also replaced my cookie tin. It also replaced something else, the fish oil, because it has an omega -6 that is considered. It acts in the body like an omega -3. And I think there's one other thing. So you can really save a lot by switching out several supplements for spirulina and chlorella. And I'm not someone who likes to take a lot of stuff. So for me, just taking one thing, I like to just take one or two things. And I feel like everyone in the world should be taking spirulina and chlorella daily.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, I need a sound clip of that.
Vanessa Spina:
Especially because of the phycocyanin, it kills cancer cells in in petri dishes and it's what's used in chemotherapy. They use phycocyanin and it's basically found in really high concentration in, I think it's in the spirulina, not the chlorella, I think it's in the spirulina. But they're both so amazing to take. I really feel like everyone in the world should be taking it. I'm trying to get my parents to take it next.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, I can't wait to send you mine. And what I love about it as well is you're getting all of these vitamins and these nutrients in their real food form, like not synthetic. I just feel like they're so much better absorbed by the body. Yeah, and yours is raw, I'm assuming. Yes, it's not, yeah, heat treated.
Vanessa Spina:
I think you said last time you were taking, I was mentioning I take about seven grams of each, which is about 30 tablets of each, and you said you were doing like double that.
Melanie Avalon:
Mm -hmm. I usually do about double that.
Vanessa Spina:
Is it just like for just getting more?
Melanie Avalon:
I just love it. It's like that time. I just love eating it and that's like intuitively what feels like the right amount for me in my big, you know, one meal a day situation. Obviously you have it in your eating window.
Vanessa Spina:
Mmhmm.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. And I'm excited because I like the way, I know some people don't like the taste. If so, you can swallow it. You can crush it and add it to foods. I just put it in my smoothie.
Vanessa Spina:
sometimes.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, yeah, that's a great way to do it
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, it also replaces a green. Sorry, if you're someone who has traditionally taken like a greens supplement, it also replaces your greens. Yes.
Melanie Avalon:
It's so amazing. I'm so happy you understand.
Vanessa Spina:
It's like mana from heaven. It doesn't even make sense that this exists and that when you actually look at the breakdown of what's in it, it looks like it was godsend. It's incredible.
Melanie Avalon:
No, it's so funny because like, that's the way I've been feeling about it. But then when I finally got back the supplement fact label for our bag, I was on the phone with Scott and I was looking at it. I was like, is this right? I was like 625% of your B12, 53% of your iron. So then I was like going to chat GPT and I was like fact checking everything. And yep, it's accurate.
Vanessa Spina:
And the superoxide dismutase, I mean, there's lots of antioxidants and there's glutathione. I think there's superoxide dismutase and there's one other with the C. What is it?
Melanie Avalon:
Would it have been the, in chlorella there's nucleic acids? Yes. Was that the one? No.
Vanessa Spina:
Okay. There's chlorophyll. Maybe it's chlorophyll I'm thinking of. Because chlorophyll, I think there's one, no, it's one other antioxidant. Superoxide is glutathione and it's probably going to come to me later. But what's amazing is, you know, our, we make superoxide dismutase in our bodies. Like my children make it. And we make it, I think, until the age of 30. And then our endogenous supply of antioxidants goes way down after the age of 30, which explains why people start really aging after the age of 30. So if I could go back in time, I would have been starting to take this when I turned 29. But I love taking it now because I know that it's like, it's helping support so much free radical damage and buffer that, but superoxide is a crazy free radical. It's like got three unpaired electrons and causes so much damage to your mitochondria. I think it's one of the only antioxidants that gets inside the inner membrane of the mitochondria and helps protect it.
Melanie Avalon:
This is so amazing. I really can't wait to send it to you. Oh my goodness.
Vanessa Spina:
I can't wait to try yours and I can't wait to see the packaging, the mermaid.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, the mermaid essence. She came together, she pulled through. Yeah, I'm really, really excited about it. And it took us so long to find a source. And I'm obsessed with the source where we found. It's in Hawaii and they only use like the best practices and they're really sustainable. And I'm just really, really excited about it. And then we third party tested it ourselves to make sure it's completely free of pesticides. And we tested for heavy metals and all the things. So because it doesn't have an organic certification, but that's a label that means certain things. So I know that if I can go and check all the things that organic would mean, I feel good about it, if that makes sense. So like I know the raising practices and then I went and tested for all the toxins and things that the organic labels should supposedly protect against. So I know it's up to those standards. So I'm really, really excited about it. So for listeners, if you'd like to get the special launch special, cause we're gonna do a really great launch special for it, definitely make sure you're on my email list. So that is at avalonx.us/emaillist. And you can also get text updates. If you text AVALONX to 877 -861 -8318, that's Avalonx and I'm gonna spell it because all the texts we get are often not this A -V -A -L -O -N -X. We get everything and I'm like, nope, that's not. And I can't like add people. So you have to text that keyword to get added to that list. So yeah, very, very excited. Shall we jump into some fasting things? Sounds great. So to start things off, we have some great questions about longer fasts. We're excited about this because I have some studies and some thoughts and then it's gonna tie into something that we teased about last week if you listened to that episode. So this should be fun. So we have a question from Andrea. This is actually from my Facebook group. So you can join my Facebook group. It's called IF Biohackers and I often will ask for questions in there. And so Andrea asked, what's the truth about occasional long fasts like 36 to 48 hours? I've heard it's great for you if you're fat adapted, keep electrolytes up and eat hearty following the fast. I've also heard it's terrible because it stresses your body too much. I go with what feels good to me, but what are the real facts? And then some other people chimed into that. So Maris said, I would like to know this as well because I do two of them each week. And Kimmy said, I'd like to know more about this also. I've been fasting almost four years and have only done a few 24 hour fasts. I can go longer with no problem at all, but is it too much stress on my 55 year old body?
Vanessa Spina:
It is true that fasting can raise cortisol levels in many people. And so in terms of what we hear of it stressing the body too much, I think that it can be one of those things where if someone already has a very high stress load and maybe already high cortisol, that could be a situation where it could be adding potentially too much stress. However, I think that intermittent fasting and fasting in general also has a hermetic effect, which is similar to the hormesis that we have when we build muscles, we stress our muscles. And that stress is a eustress, it's a positive stress because it makes our muscles stronger when they recover and repair and it makes them bigger and we build stronger, better muscles. So in that same sense, intermittent fasting and even longer fasting, I think can also provide some hormesis where it can actually make us stronger. You know, it can help us sometimes deal with other stresses in our life. And that's sort of a very inter, like person bio individual thing, I would say. Some people may have, you know, the feeling that it stresses them out too much. There's also psychological aspects to it. Whereas if you believe it's gonna stress you or stress your body then, and you firmly believe that, then it's gonna be a stressful experience. You might be white knuckling it through it. You really have to check in with yourself and see how you feel personally. Doing it, do you feel? Like I was talking about the last episode, when I got back into doing it, I felt boundless energy. I felt my little sparks of joy coming back throughout the day. I felt like myself again, I felt like I had way more time way more energy to go do things. I found myself with much enhanced cognition, wanting to listen to more interesting complex things instead of just sort of feeling more sluggish and lethargic when I'm in that fed state, more of the day and wanting more entertainment and less sort of cognitively stimulating things. So for me, I notice right now in my life, it's a really good thing. Maybe at other times it would be more of a stressor. So it's bio individual. It also depends on what's going on currently in your life. And we do know physiologically it can raise cortisol levels in people it tends to, but that can either be a good or a bad thing for you. So I just wanted to make that comment before you talked about the research. And then I have another comment later about the effect on muscle.
Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Thank you. And yeah, I agree so much. I mean, it's a theme of the show is that it's very, you have to find what works for you, especially when it comes to these longer fasts, like they're asking about. I do think I don't want to make blanket statements, but in general, I think with time restricted eating, intermittent fasting that's happening within a day, so not longer than a day, I really think most people can adapt to that and find a pattern that will work for them. With these longer fasts, Andre, I was asking about 36 to 48 hours and I know people often wonder about even longer fasts than that. I definitely think some intuition comes into play and you have to find what works for you. And I did find a really interesting review article. This is actually from May 2024, although it was originally published June 2023, but still for the public, I guess, May 2024, which is very recent. And it's called efficacy and safety of prolonged water fasting, a narrative review of human trials. So it was actually looking to summarize the effects of these longer fasts in people. And so these fasts were five days or more, which is longer than what the listeners were asking about. But I do think it can look at a lot of good mechanisms and definitely things that people might experience in longer fasting, like when you're really getting there, like the five days. And so for that, they found that five to 20 days of fasting increased circulating ketones. It led to mild to moderate weight loss of two to 10%. But that approximately two -thirds of that weight loss was muscle and only one -third was fat. But again, this is a five -day water fast or longer. They said the excessive lean mass loss, I'm quoting from the study, suggests that prolonged fasting may increase the breakdown of muscle proteins, which is a concern. For other health benefits, they found that blood pressure consistently decreased with the fasting. There was mixed findings on cholesterol panels and plasma lipid panels. So they found decreases in cholesterol and triglycerides in some studies, but others didn't find that. As far as their fasting glucose, fasting insulin, insulin resistance, and HbA1c, which is considered to be a marker of longer -term blood sugar based on glycated hemoglobin from high blood sugar levels. And hemoglobin has a turnover rate half -life of three months. So it's typically seen as a three -month marker of your blood sugar status. So that was in people with normal blood sugar levels. Interestingly, for people who had type 1 or type 2 diabetes, they didn't find those changes. I thought that was really interesting. They also looked at the effects of refeeding in a few of the trials, and they found this is also really interesting. So three to four months after people did these longer fasts, the metabolic benefits, so the weight loss could have, like, in some of the trials and some of the people was maintained, but the metabolic benefits weren't. And that actually doesn't surprise me, I can circle back to that. As far as negative side effects they found, they found metabolic acidosis, and this is not in everybody, but they just found these metabolic acidosis, headaches, insomnia, and hunger in some studies. Their conclusion was that prolonged fasting appears to be a moderately safe dietary therapy that can produce clinically significant weight loss over a few days or weeks. However, the ability of these protocols to produce sustained improvements and metabolic markers warrants further investigation. So a few comments I will have there, and again, I want to clarify, super clarify, because I know the question was about shorter fasts in this, and this is talking about five to 20 day fasts. The point about the metabolic benefits not being maintained, I find really interesting but not surprising. So basically what it says to me is, you know, the weight loss can be maintained because you literally lost weight. But these metabolic states that we're in, it's because things that they're measuring, like ketones, blood sugar, insulin resistance, cholesterol, triglycerides, that's not something where you can like set it up and then be good to go if you don't maintain a lifestyle that's supporting that. Like those markers change very fast. Even the cholesterol panels, so even when I interviewed Azure Grant, she was a researcher and she did a lot of work on trials that were involved with ORA ring. I actually was introduced to her through the former CEO at ORA, his name was Harpreet. One of the studies she was on was so fascinating to me and it was they basically checked people's cholesterol panels, like consistently throughout the day for a few days. And the amount of change that they saw, like even within a day, was so interesting. And it really made me like think differently about when you get your cholesterol panels done at, you know, on a blood drop because it's just a transient moment in time. And I remember there was a sentence in that paper saying that for every single participant, at least one marker of their lipid panel went out of range or went into like a problematic range at some point during the day, which is like, and again, that's, you know, that population study. it just goes to show the point of it and how it relates to the study I'm talking about right now is that these things change so fast. And so it's not surprising to me that, you know, you go on this extended water fast and then you see all these beneficial changes. And then if you check three to four months later, really not surprising to me that people don't have those effects anymore, especially if they're not continuing their, any sort of fasting protocol. I find it really interesting though, that even with all of everything that they found on these super long fasts that are longer than these questions that we got asked about, they still concluded with all of that, that it's a moderately safe diet therapy. So if you're looking at fasting even less than that, like 36 to 48 hours, I think the same conclusion would obviously apply to that as well. I will just speak a little bit more to my own thoughts on it. A lot of the fasting proponents and researchers out there, like recently I've been interviewing both Dr. Mindy big advocates of having these longer fasts within a person's protocol, especially for women. I know Dr. Peltz in particular really likes fasting for older women and menopausal women in particular. She thinks it pairs really well with that. And you can check out past episodes because recently we talked a lot about that. We talked a lot about sinking fasting to your cycle, whether or not you should do that. Vanessa and I personally don't really change surrounding our cycles. Well, I do think it can work for a lot of people if that's their cup of tea and works for them. So long story short, my thoughts on this, my thoughts on occasional long fasts. I agree with Andrea. She said, I heard it's great for you if you're fat adapted, keep electrolytes up and eat hearty following the fast. I agree 100% with that. And then her comment about she's heard it's terrible because it stresses your body too much. I think Vanessa did a really good job talking about that, what our perception is surrounding stress. That was a really great analysis what Vanessa gave. And the role of cortisol and a hermetic beneficial stress versus too much stress. And like Vanessa was saying, I think you have to look at your overall dietary stress load bucket. And it's very possible that something that is technically or normally would be a hermetic beneficial stress. If your stress bucket is full to the brim and you're just running on stress hormones and you're emotionally stressed and maybe even under eating or all of the different things, then too much fasting might be too much stress. Because in that context, it's no longer hermetic. It's too much for your body. But then I love what Andrea said. She said she goes with what feels good to her. I agree. Listen to your body. Your body can speak to you about what works best. And so like for Maurice, for example, who's she does two of them each week, if that's working for you and like you're feeling good. I mean, keep on keeping on. And so for Kimmy, for example, who she's been fasting almost four years and she's only done a few 24 hour fasts and she felt like she could go longer with no problem. But she's worried about it being too much stress on her 55 year old body. I personally, again, I'm not a doctor, but I feel like if you feel like you keep going longer with no problem, like try it. And you might see a lot of benefits from it. So Vanessa, what are your thoughts?
Vanessa Spina:
I wanted to comment on the concept of fasting being bad for muscle after the age of 40 because Dr. Don Lehman is someone who you know I really look to for a lot of these recommendations and he said if you're past 40 he really doesn't recommend it because he said it can cause too much lean body mass loss or muscle loss and usually it's too difficult at that point to put it back on especially past the age of 40 we don't have the same hormones that we have when we're younger when it's a lot easier to put muscle on and so you know he said it's sort of like you know every day you're losing bricks from a wall you know if you fast you're gonna accelerate that process and then you're not gonna get them back but I heard him say that he considers extended fasting to be over 48 hours and I didn't realize before when he was just talking about fasting that that's what he was qualifying it as so it's interesting because usually when you look at some of the charts you know on on extended fasting you see that it's after three days that the proteolysis or the lysis or breakdown of protein goes way down and you're mostly burning fat after those first three days you actually do break down a lot of protein but some of that is autophagy in the first three days but he says that up to 48 hours he doesn't really consider extended fasting so that means he's saying that up to 48 hours fast are probably fine on your muscle if you're even if you're over 40 so it was a little clarification point I wanted to mention because I think a lot of people have questions about that it's really important I think to do resistance training if maintaining your lean body mass is really important to you and you want to make sure that you're still offering a stimulus to muscle protein synthesis without ingesting protein because that's the other like like you can lift weights or you can eat protein both of those stimulant muscle protein synthesis but if you're not eating and you're doing a fast say up to 48 hours then you want to do some resistance training if you are concerned about not being able to signal muscle protein synthesis that can definitely help with it but I just thought it was interesting I didn't realize that that was what he considered to be sort of that threshold for when you get into the danger zone for losing muscles so seems that under 48 hours is fine according to him if you're over 40 and you don't want to lose muscle mass
Melanie Avalon:
I think one of the primary issues we have in the intermittent fasting world is just how many different words there are for different things and the lack of consensus surrounding definitions. Yes. Especially even intermittent fasting, we call it so many different things, like intermittent fasting, time -restricted eating, time -restricted feeding. And what's really interesting, I find this interesting, because I'll read a lot of books and sometimes they'll go through and they'll define each one of those. And sometimes it'll be a very specific definition. And I'm like, where did that come from? Is that like your definition of that word, you know? Like for example, Megan Ramos in her book, I'd have to look at my notes, but she defined intermittent fasting as I really would have to look. Basically the definitions were just not, they were not what I would have called intermittent fasting or time -restricted feeding. And it was all, I'm really happy that she defined it because that's really helpful for reading her book. It's like, okay, so when I read her book and I hear what she says, I'll know what she's referring to. So I think it's great that she does that. And she's definitely has her definition for it. I just think it's a big problem for the intermittent fasting world at large that we don't agree on these definitions. Like somebody needs to like step up and like, I don't know, to find them.
Vanessa Spina:
It's one of my biggest frustrations, especially when you're reading research. And you and I have talked about that, the study will say intermittent fasting and it's not, it's something completely different. And just the fact that there is no consensus is, I think it, yeah, it's definitely needs some clarification. Although it's interesting, when I was interviewing Dr. Sachin Panda who basically put time restricted feeding on the map, he says they're basically the same, like he had a definition for it. You could do intermittent fasting in some ways without having the same like time restricted eating pattern. Like for him, it's really about the patterns, but yeah, it would really serve us to have just a little bit more consensus on these definitions.
Melanie Avalon:
or even like ADF, for example, alternate day fasting, I feel like there's two pretty accepted versions of that. And in one version, you don't need anything on the fasting day. And in the other version, you eat like up to 500 calories, which I just feel like is very different signaling if you're not eating at all versus eating some. Or for example, like the ones where it's intermittent fasting but then they're like consuming stuff, but it's fasting.
Vanessa Spina:
That drives me crazy. That's what I was thinking of when we were, you know, talking, you know, because I mean, people get excited about like new studies, you know, in this area. And then even when you talk to the study author and you're like, why did you call this intermittent fasting when it's caloric restriction? And it seems like some people, even though they've been working in the field for a long time, they don't really either they, they don't know there's a difference, which is concerning, or they do know, and they don't care, which is like also
Melanie Avalon:
It's just confusing. So I'm looking through my Megan Ramos notes to see what... Yeah, I want to know what the definition was. My notes that I have, so she considered time -restricted eating is certain hours. It's not intermittent fasting. They're different things. Like she recommends time -restricted eating on days that you're not fasting. So they're like completely different. And I'm trying to remember what she said about what intermittent fasting was, but I don't think I have it in my notes. But yeah, so definitions friends, definitions. Yeah. Do you think we adequately answered that question?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think so from all angles. I think from the stress perspective, you know, and that bio individuality and then the length of the fast and then concerns with muscle loss. And I think that that's probably a lot of what our listeners in this community are concerned with. So yeah, I think so.
Melanie Avalon:
Awesome, I think we can briefly answer one last question. Super short, and it's from Michelle. She wants to know, does taking glutathione break a fast? I can answer this, or do you have thoughts?
Vanessa Spina:
My answer is yes. I mean, because it is basically made up of three different amino acids, so I would definitely keep it in the eating window.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Okay. So my thoughts, I would agree. I will say though to comment on this, because I think a lot of people take oral glutathione. And ever since I interviewed Dr. Nayan Patel, he has a company called Auro Wellness. He has a really fascinating book about glutathione, like I learned more about glutathione than I ever thought I could learn. And he makes a really good case that taking oral glutathione supplements, they realistically do not get into your cells. It just goes through your bloodstream. Even IV glutathione doesn't get into your cells. It just goes through your bloodstream. So I really encourage people not to take oral glutathione supplements anyways. I know they're expensive, and I encourage people not to take IV glutathione. It's very, very temporary and transient. And I also talked to my friend James Clement about that, because I really, really trust him. He does a lot of longevity -related lab work. I had him on my show for a book called The Switch years and years ago, and we became buddies. I love him. I'm just laughing, because I tried to convince him to go with me to the Veronica's concert, because he loves the Veronica's. But in any case, back to the glutathione. So Dr. Patel makes a transdermal glutathione, and they have studies showing that it actually gets into the cell. I love this stuff. I use it all the time, especially after a night out, you know, drinking a bit of wine. So for that, you can go to MelanieAvalon.com/auro. So A -U -R -O. And you can actually bulk up their, I didn't realize this until, because I post about them all the time on Instagram, and they sent me a DM this week. And they said, you guys can actually be doubling up your coupon codes, which is amazing. So you can get 15% off if you double up the codes. So use the code MelanieAvalon, that will get you 5%. And then also add the code Auro10, A -U -R -O -10, that will get you 10%. So then you'll get 15% off. So definitely take advantage of that. And the reason I love this is because it completely avoids the question of does it break your fast, because you are doing it transdermally, you're putting it on your skin. So there's not even the worry of it breaking your fast. So that is my answer to that question. All right, anything else, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
I loved all of these topics on this episode on the last one. I can't wait for more. I just love all the great questions that we get and it's so much fun to chat about these studies with you.
Melanie Avalon:
Me too. I really I love that we love all the same things. It's so amazing. So thank you to all the listeners for being here. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com. You can submit questions there. You can get the show notes at ifpodcast.com/episode373. Those show notes will have a full transcript and have links to everything that we talked about. So that will be super helpful. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @MelanieAvalon. Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?
Vanessa Spina:
I don't think so. I had such a great time and can't wait to record with you next week.
Melanie Avalon:
Me too. Thank you so much. I will talk to you next week. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
STUFF WE LIKE
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
LINKS
BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com
Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!