Welcome to Episode 398 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
SHOW NOTES
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STUFF WE LIKE:
Visit ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike for all the stuff we like!
STUDIES:
Fasting's effects on stem cells linked to increased cancer risk (link)
Short-term post-fast refeeding enhances intestinal stemness via polyamines (link)
OTHER LINKS:
Vanessa's Tone Device: The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
Melanie's podcast: The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
Vanessa's podcast: The Optimal Protein Podcast
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com
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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 398 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.
Melanie Avalon
I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What, When, Wine, and creator of the supplement line, AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Luxe Red Light Therapy Panels.
Melanie Avalon
For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions at ifpodcast.com.
Melanie Avalon
We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome.
Melanie Avalon
This is episode number 398 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I'm doing well. How are you? I am good. I have had an epiphany about a product I want to make.
Melanie Avalon
Can I like pitch you it? Okay. So you know how we talk about sleeping and how I love sleeping cool with like cooling mattresses and air temperature down and all the things? Yes. So what if I make like a stuffed animal that you sleep with that is filled with like a gel or a water and you keep it in the freezer.
Melanie Avalon
And so then at night, you pull it out of the freezer and you snuggle with it and it keeps you cold. So cute. I've been snuggling with like those like cold packs and realizing how effective they are. And I was like, Oh, this should be like a stuffed animal.
Vanessa Spina
That would be really cute. Have you checked if they have that anywhere? Like, it's got to be a thing. But probably for heat ones, maybe they have them for heat ones, but not for cold ones.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I'm getting flashbacks when we were little. We had the boo boo bunny. Did you have a boo boo bunny?
Vanessa Spina
No, but you literally are Elsa, like you are it's crazy. Like who cuddles with an ice block?
Melanie Avalon
Listeners friends, let me know if this is something you want and I will I will make one. This is hilarious. What's new in your life?
Vanessa Spina
Things are going well, you know, overall, just like juggling all the things, the family, the work, the fasting, the not-so-fasting. I've been... The not-so-fasting? Yeah, like I've been revisiting, you know, I probably mentioned it a few different times.
Vanessa Spina
I've been trying different things, you know, I told you I had recently added in this morning meal, like at 10 a.m. before my workouts. And now I'm starting to learn about how to strategically use carbs before workouts and protein.
Vanessa Spina
And I had the most brilliant guest I think I've ever had on the podcast, Dr. Stacey Sims.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, yes, which we have a question about her later, so.
Vanessa Spina
Yes, I saw that, which was amazing timing, but I interviewed her and she's just so incredible because she is such an expert when it comes to women's physiology and especially women who are active or athletic.
Vanessa Spina
And she really talks about how she had this viral TED talk where it was women are not small men. People, a lot of listeners have probably heard that before, but maybe they knew it was her. They didn't know it was actually from her.
Vanessa Spina
And so she talks about how a lot of the research that's done on things like intermittent fasting and fasted workouts and, you know, protein timing, meal distribution, all this stuff, it's always for the majority of the time done on men.
Vanessa Spina
And so she looks at the research that's specifically done on women and also how things affect our brains and also our ability to recover. And it's just so specific. She just has a very specific and incredible amount of knowledge.
Vanessa Spina
So it was really interesting to interview her and talk to her because I think things are different if someone is metabolically unhealthy. And I kind of told her, this is, look, this is my journey. I'm not an athlete.
Vanessa Spina
Like I tried out for sports in high school. I did not make the teams. Like I was an overweight teen. I was not fit. Like I would get super red if I tried to run a mile or anything like that. I was usually like the one last picked for team sports and stuff like that.
Vanessa Spina
So I became athletic now as an adult, but as a kid, I was not that. And I was someone who became, you know, metabolically unfit, very metabolically inflexible and obese. You know, I was like 38% body fat.
Vanessa Spina
So I told her before we started recording, like, I'm not an athlete. This is my story. I use intermittent fasting and keto and all these things to help me when I was in that really metabolically unfit place.
Vanessa Spina
And now over the years I've started doing resistance training. I started getting energy back as I lost fat mass through keto and intermittent fasting and these different tools and strategies where now I'm this active person and I am building all this muscle and I, and now I have to revisit my strategies like do these things still work for someone who's now metabolically fit and who's very active compared to older version of Vanessa who was unfit and obese.
Vanessa Spina
Right. So it's really interesting because she does say that these things have a place like intermittent fasting has a place for women who have PCOS. As you know, the research on that is amazing for women who have issues with things like PCOS and obesity, they have their place there.
Vanessa Spina
What she doesn't like is when they're applied to the fitness space and women's active women and women who are athletes because there she finds there's more a risk of under fueling and not recovering well.
Vanessa Spina
Whereas men who are athletes and athletic, they can sort of get away with some of those strategies even when they're athletic, but women not as much. And so she has this very specific knowledge that has been really interesting.
Vanessa Spina
And I think anyone who's, you know, completely if you completely recompose your body and completely transform your metabolic health, where you're a new person and your activity levels are completely different, you may need to revisit your strategies, you know?
Vanessa Spina
And so now I'm finding things that are like, wow, I'm really fired up about all these things that are now helping me take things to the next level athletically where these other tools really helped me when I was in a different place.
Vanessa Spina
So it's very exciting.
Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, I have questions and thoughts. This is actually just a random question. Have you ever thought about doing a TED Talk?
Vanessa Spina
No, I don't think I really have.
Melanie Avalon
I just think about it because I feel like for so many people it's how they get their initial massive audience. Like Cynthia had a TED Talk. I just feel like it's like a thing to do that really gets you out there with a message.
Melanie Avalon
If you have a particular specific message, it's interesting. I would have thought that you would have thought of it. I don't know. I felt like it was something that sounds like a Vanessa thing, like doing a TED Talk.
Melanie Avalon
Like would you want to? It was like given to you like an invitation.
Vanessa Spina
I don't know. It kind of scares me. I think I would need to get to a point in my career where I had a specific amount of knowledge, and I don't know if I'm there yet. I think I'm still refining things, but I have a specific amount of knowledge that only I have.
Vanessa Spina
Maybe you just need a message that you're really passionate about sharing. I definitely have that. I think there's just a lot of pressure. I had two friends who did TED Talks, Darryl Edwards and Dr. Gabrielle Lyon.
Vanessa Spina
When Gabrielle was preparing, she was rehearsing with me. I just felt so nervous for both of them when they were doing it. I knew they were both going to absolutely crush it, and they both completely did.
Vanessa Spina
But I remember the feeling of seeing them go through the process. It was making me nervous because it's a lot of pressure, stepping on stage and delivering this perfect 10, 12-minute pitch. But I don't know.
Vanessa Spina
It maybe would be worth thinking about. What's interesting too is a lot of people, I think, maybe Cynthia, maybe I'm wrong about this. It seems like certain people that I know, I think maybe Cynthia, maybe Dr.
Vanessa Spina
Stacy Sims, they did their TED Talk, and then they started really building a huge following partly because of the virality of that. That elevated all the work that they had been doing over the years.
Vanessa Spina
Maybe I could be totally wrong because I actually don't fully know. This is just what I'm inferring. Whereas other people, and then once they do the TED Talk, they get a book deal and they get multiple book deals and they build this massive community.
Vanessa Spina
But then there's other people who build up their communities in other ways, either with a book first or with a podcast or with an Instagram or whatever, and then they do a TED Talk later. That was more Gabrielle.
Vanessa Spina
She already had built up this huge audience and stuff, and then she was like, I need to do a TED Talk, which just took her message to the next level and her following a community to the next level. Yeah, it's really interesting on when is the best time to do it as well.
Melanie Avalon
I'm really intrigued by it. And now I'm thinking back through all the people I know who have done TED Talks. And I know some of them have, I know I had like a long call with somebody who had done TED Talk and he said it was like the most stressful thing, like the vibes of what you were just saying.
Melanie Avalon
And I remember being like, Oh, okay. But then I've talked to people who are like, Oh, you should totally do one. So any case, a huge question I have about Stacy, and it actually relates to the study a little bit.
Melanie Avalon
It relates to an idea I have about the study we're going to discuss. But you mentioned that she said one of her main concerns is under fueling while fasting. So are, I don't know if this came up specifically, but are the issues from the fasting or are they from fasting if you're an athlete under fueling?
Melanie Avalon
Like is it like required to have the under fueling piece as well?
Vanessa Spina
It's that the, it's that the fasting, one aspect of it is that the intermittent fasting leads to under fueling because especially for athletes, the energy demand, depending on the athlete as well is so high that you can't really, you can't really cut out that fast and that, that eating time.
Vanessa Spina
And for her, it's the ones who like skipped the morning meal or like really push to extend their fasting window late into the day, she thinks it's really not ideal for athletes because of certain hormonal things.
Vanessa Spina
And so one of her things is like, if you're going to do resistance training, you just need 15 grams of protein before resistance training. And this is like a small amount of amino acids that basically signals to your hypothalamus that there's fuel on board and amino acids on board.
Vanessa Spina
And it also helps get into the state physiologically post exercise to recover, which is really interesting. So she has a lot of research showing that specifically in women, one of the ways that we're different.
Vanessa Spina
She also talks about cycle specific things. So things happen around women's cycles. She also talks about really interestingly how women have more oxidative fibers. So we're actually more metabolically flexible than men.
Vanessa Spina
Whereas men don't have as many oxidative fibers. So they have to do some of these strategies like fasting until midday or later to become as metabolically flexible as women. So I was like, that's really cool because usually when you compare women's physiology to men's, it's usually some kind of disadvantage, but this is one area where we actually have an advantage.
Vanessa Spina
It's kind of like.
Melanie Avalon
People debate, I mean, I have read multiple times that women are better fat burners than men. I don't know, but I think there's this idea that we're not as good at fat burners because it seems like dieting and everything comes much easier to men.
Melanie Avalon
But I'm pretty sure from like just a physiological perspective, like we burn more fat when we're exercising, we more easily tap into fat. It's actually all in our advantage. Well, okay, I'll tell you, so this is how it relates to the study we were gonna discuss.
Melanie Avalon
So this study was actually sent to me by my friend James Clement, shout out to James. I love James, he wrote a book called The Switch. I was just thinking about, was The Switch about switching into fat burning.
Melanie Avalon
It's about the switch between A and BK and mTOR specifically is what it's referring to.
Vanessa Spina
Oh, not the metabolic switch!
Melanie Avalon
It probably is on a grander scale, but I think specifically it's been forever since I've read it. I think specifically it's talking more about that. I should revisit that and actually check that.
Vanessa Spina
Yeah, I'm interested.
Melanie Avalon
In any case, so this study is called Short-Term Post-Fast Refeeding Enhances Intestinal Stemness via Polyaminines, August 2024. And he actually sent me an article about it. The title of the article is Fastings Effects on Stem Cells Linked to Increased Cancer Risk.
Melanie Avalon
So this was a rodent study, but it was really interesting because basically the researchers, they had, prior to this, they had done studies on intestinal stem cells. So they actually found in 2018 that 24-hour fasts could boost the regeneration of intestinal stem cells, which tends to go down with age.
Melanie Avalon
So that's super awesome. And their new study actually looked at the effects of the refeeding process after that fasting on intestinal stem cells. And again, this was specifically in rodents, but what they found was actually an increased cancer risk after the refeeding period.
Melanie Avalon
And the way that it was set up, so they actually had three groups. So there was one group that just fasted for 24 hours, another group that fasted for 24 hours, and then they ate whatever they wanted for a 24-hour refeeding period.
Melanie Avalon
And then just a normal control group, a normal control group that ate just normally throughout the study. And the mechanisms that they proposed for why there was an increased cancer risk, just specifically in the group after the refeeding period, was likely due to high levels of mTOR Complex 1, which we talked about mTOR a lot on a show.
Melanie Avalon
They found that it increased protein synthesis via polyamine metabolism in that refeeding process. And so their conclusions from that was that when the fasting and the refeeding cycle that you needed to carefully consider and test the diet-based strategies that you implement for that because of this increased cancer risk.
Melanie Avalon
Something that's really important to note, which they don't really draw attention to in the article about it, surprise, surprise, is these were mice that had a genetic disposition for cancer. So they were mice that were set up to probably get cancer, and then putting them in this setting where they were fasting for 24 hours and then refeeding, that refeeding process actually did increase cancer risk.
Melanie Avalon
And so I have a lot of thoughts about this. The way it relates to what I was saying about asking you about Dr. Stacy Stems, the reason I was asking the question about is it the fasting or is it the fasting and the underfueling?
Melanie Avalon
So is it actually the fasting that's a problem or is it the fasting which creates underfueling? And so my question here is, is it actually the fasting that's the problem or was it the intense overfeeding period that these rats went through because of the fasting and specifically because they were set up for cancer, a genetic tendency towards cancer?
Melanie Avalon
And I have other thoughts beyond that, but just having laid that out, do you have any initial thoughts, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina
don't. I read both the study links that you sent me. And well, the first thing that I want, I guess, to make clear is that they were rodent studies, right? I think you mentioned that. So what they find could have no application whatsoever to humans, which is something that I've really been learning recently because there's sometimes extrapolations that have been made from rodent studies to humans that later on are confirmed as having absolutely no parallels whatsoever in humans.
Vanessa Spina
So I used to think, well, if they found it in a mice, it must apply to humans even in a small way, right? And then it turns out, no, it doesn't matter. Like it can be found in mice and then not be a factor at all for humans.
Vanessa Spina
So I just want to preface it saying that I would be really curious to see the research done like in human randomized control trials and see, you know, what, I don't know if you could do this kind of study in humans though.
Vanessa Spina
That's one of unfortunate things about the limitations and ethics. You know, I don't think you could, you couldn't create, I guess you could maybe set up the parameters a little bit, you know, differently or just follow people who do a lot of fasting and refeeding in different ways.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I mean, I think you could look at ADF. The problem here, well, like you said with the rodents and like the fasting and rodents, it's hard to translate rodents to days to humans because do you do it one-to-one like 24 hours, 24 hours, or like accommodate the fact that a 24-hour fast and a rodent is days and days and days and a human?
Melanie Avalon
So it's like, what actually is the equal fast? Do we even know? And so, but one of the things I just wanted to, I guess something I think we can take away from this, and this is completely mechanistic, but basically, it is possible that you can do fasting and have these beneficial effects and then have an eating environment that could still be potentially detrimental.
Melanie Avalon
So in this situation, and I would like to actually read, I could only access the overview of the study. I couldn't get the actual details because I would like to know if the rodents that were eating whatever they wanted after the fast, like how did that eating compared to the other groups?
Melanie Avalon
Because it was all just, it was just like what they wanted. So I'm not sure like what they were actually eating or how much.
Vanessa Spina
It also just wanted to make a point there. It also, like they said they did three groups, but they weren't all the same. Like one just did fasting, then one did fasting and refeeding. So they didn't, and then there was a third group, but they didn't do like three, like three or four different types of fasting and refeeding.
Vanessa Spina
So how do they know for sure it's the refeeding?
Melanie Avalon
How do they know to what extent the fasting was the cause here? They need a group that was overeating without having fasted as well. That I'd be curious about because that they might, you know, they might find with that, that fasting was actually mitigating some of the effects, you know?
Melanie Avalon
But something I think that we can take away from this, and this actually relates to our next question is I do, this is my opinion, but I think fasting has so many incredible benefits and I think people can do compensatory, take compensatory measures from that, that create problems and then that, and then the fasting gets blamed for it.
Melanie Avalon
So I think that happens with the under fueling with the athletes. Like I, it might not be the entirety of the cause of the problem is they're under fueling, but I feel like it's probably a big part of it.
Melanie Avalon
So I'm curious if we had a population of athletes and maybe there's been the study, but I'd be curious if there's a population of athletes that did not under fuel like at all and was doing fasting, do they see problems?
Melanie Avalon
And then like with the study, I'd be really curious if they were to have a control group of rodents that fasted and then were controlled to eat normally. Like would they see the problems? And then on the flip side, I don't think fasting is a magical cure all for everything, so you could do fasting and then you can still, in your eating window, eat not good food, like carcinogenic, toxic food, processed food,
Melanie Avalon
high sugar food, and fasting might help mitigate a lot of the effects of that. But I don't think it's a magic wand to just completely undo the negative potential of what we do end up putting in our bodies.
Melanie Avalon
So whether it's too little or too much, that stuff still counts. So yeah, fasting seems to be given, it gets all the blame or like all the praise, and I think the approach is actually more nuanced than that.
Vanessa Spina
Yes, I agree.
Melanie Avalon
So, which that does relate to the question. So would you like to read Amy's question?
Vanessa Spina
Yes so first question today is from Amy. I just finished a three day water fast and when i had my first meal afterwards my body swelled up and became very sore. I am assuming it's the return of inflammation does it seem.
Vanessa Spina
Normal to have the inflammation return so quickly or was this likely more of an indication of a food sensitivity slash intolerance it was tough because i hadn't done a fast. Over 20 hours in a long time however i regained my sense of smell i lost it from coven so that was super cool wow amazing.
Melanie Avalon
Awesome, Amy. Well, first of all, I'm dying to know. And since this was from Facebook, maybe I can ask her, I'm really curious how I really want to know how like when she had COVID was her sense of smell gone for months and months.
Melanie Avalon
And then she did a three day water pass and it came back or like, had she just had COVID and then did it and came back. So it would be hard to, you know, parse out if it was actually do the fasting. But if it had been like months and months, and then she did this and it came back, that would be so, that would be so cool.
Melanie Avalon
I mean, it's cool either way and it's awesome either way. Have you had COVID Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina
Have had it one time It was really at the very very end. I got like a very last variant I think it was omnichron or something and it was pretty mild
Melanie Avalon
Did your smile go away?
Vanessa Spina
I didn't, but funny enough, that's how we figured out what was going on. We were actually in Greece and the hotel that we stayed at, you know, Uzo, Uzo, Uzo, I'm probably saying it wrong. Uzo is this Greek, it's sort of like a hooch or like a, like a moonshine kind of thing, or just like a alcohol Uzo.
Vanessa Spina
I think it's homemade sometimes. You can make it homemade or professionally made, but it's a traditional Greek drink, very strong, smells very strong, just like most hard alcohols. And they always have it in the room, in your hotel room, it's like a little.
Vanessa Spina
Like a welcome gift? Yeah, like a welcome gift. Exactly. They have some like nice local nuts and then locally made Uzo. And we always take it and put it away because we don't want our kids to, you know, go and play with it or whatever and knock it over.
Vanessa Spina
So we always take it and put away in the closet. And there was one, I think it was like halfway through the trip. My husband took it, took it out. I think he wanted to like taste it or try it or something.
Vanessa Spina
And he's like, huh, that's weird. It doesn't smell. And we were like, what? He's like, and then he's like, I think I lost my sense of smell because I smelled it and it almost knocked me out of my chair.
Vanessa Spina
And so if he couldn't smell that, you knew it was real. And he's like, I think I have COVID. I was like, no, you don't. He took a COVID test the next day, but that was like his only symptom. Weirdly enough.
Vanessa Spina
I never lost any of my smell or taste. Did you?
Melanie Avalon
So was he asymptomatic, COVID, or was he feeling sick?
Vanessa Spina
He didn't feel great, you know, but he wasn't like super sick. Yeah, it just lasted a couple of days. Like a short cold and mine same for me, but I didn't lose this smell.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, for me, I had it twice. The first time I had it, it was weird because I didn't feel... It was the day after New Year's Eve, so I thought I had just been out too late and it's funny because I hadn't been actually sick in years, so I didn't realize I was sick.
Melanie Avalon
I didn't put two and two together. I was like, I'm so tired. I actually had a fever the night before. I was dreaming that I was burning up. I was dreaming about fire and stuff, but I didn't put two and two together, and then my smell went away.
Melanie Avalon
My sense of smell, and I was like, oh... I was like, I know what this is. And then when I got it the second time, same thing, I had a dream at night where I was in some sort of hot situation and woke up and didn't think I was sick, but then it started going away again.
Melanie Avalon
I was like, oh, I know what this is. So that was... Last, sorry, last hand gen. I'm so sorry, but it just reminds me of it. My sister and I went out. The Michelin guide recently came to Atlanta and they starred some restaurants.
Melanie Avalon
Do they come to Prague? Is there a Michelin in Prague restaurants?
Vanessa Spina
Yes, there's a couple. There's just only a couple, but yeah, they do come here.
Melanie Avalon
So we've been wanting to go to the different ones and try them. And we went to one called Lazy Betty over the weekend, which was amazing. I highly recommend it. They were awesome. But the bartender was so incredible and giving us all of this free, all these free drinks, but he gave us this, like a spirit made from grapes made from my favorite white wine, grape, melon blanc.
Melanie Avalon
But it was that situation where like you couldn't even like smell it. It would like wipe you out. You had to like, I was like scared of it. I was like holding it far away from me. But I am not a, I do not like hard alcohol or spirits.
Melanie Avalon
They're not my, they're not my cup of tea. Do you, do you like them?
Vanessa Spina
No, I mean, so we were at a little get together yesterday. And I wanted to have some Prosecco. That's my go to. And they said I could only have a bottle, which was like $500 or something. So I was like, Okay, I guess I'll have something called a skinny bitch.
Vanessa Spina
I don't know if you need to bleep that out. But it's an actual drink in Prague. And everybody knows it.
Melanie Avalon
Oh really? It's like common to order.
Vanessa Spina
Yes, it's just vodka soda with a splash of lime.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, yeah, it's like a skinny margarita.
Vanessa Spina
Yes, but when I was back in Texas and I was out with some friends who are also one of my girlfriends who lives in Switzerland and we both were like, yeah, we'll have a skinny bitch. And the waitress was like, excuse me?
Vanessa Spina
We're like, okay, it's not a thing here, but it's a thing.
Melanie Avalon
in Europe. That's funny. Wait, so that's what, so you like it like in a, it's okay. And then like a mixed drink situation, I guess.
Vanessa Spina
Yeah, exactly. I'll have it with soda if there's no other options. But over the years I used to have that more. Now I'm more of a Prosecco kind of girl, especially since I tested it with my CGM this summer and saw that really didn't do what I thought it was doing.
Vanessa Spina
So yeah, I feel fine about having those.
Melanie Avalon
which is so interesting to me because Prosecco, I mean, it's a, it tends to be a little bit sweeter, right? Doesn't it? Or is it really dry?
Vanessa Spina
These are pretty dry usually, but I still expected it to.
Melanie Avalon
to do something different.
Vanessa Spina
Yeah. And it just like, well, Kara was explaining to me, just like turns your liver off in terms of putting out, it shuts off gluconeogenesis essentially while it's dealing with the alcohol. So your blood sugar can go down, which is what happens to mine, which is like, I don't think is a bad thing.
Melanie Avalon
This relates to a question we have later. Perfect. I might reorder the question so we can talk about it. In any case, how are we on this tangent? I'm so sorry. Oh yeah. Like COVID and smelling all the things back to Amy's question.
Melanie Avalon
I think Amy, okay. She says, is it normal to have the inflammation return so quickly? So your body's swelling up and becoming really sore after eating. That's not normal. And what I mean by normal is that's not what we should be experiencing in a really healthy metabolic state where what we're eating is really suiting us.
Melanie Avalon
And the processes are all working the way they should be working. I don't want to say it's not normal that, oh, it's like horrible and terrible. And you know, you're an outlier. I don't mean it that way at all.
Melanie Avalon
I just mean that it is a sign that something is not working here because you shouldn't be swelling up and getting sore after eating. You don't have to like sign up for that. It's like part of life. It's like there are other options.
Melanie Avalon
So I would, and the way this really relates to the study before is that that study was showing that even with the fasting, the food eating state, depending on what it is, can be inflammatory. So in that study, it was increasing the risk of, you know, tumor growth in cells.
Melanie Avalon
She says, is it likely an indication of a food sensitivity or intolerance? I'm not a doctor. I would say high probability that that is the case. So I would really look at what you're eating. And the amazing thing about coming off of a lung fast like that is it's a great opportunity to see how you react to food because you should be able to eat food and not swell up and feel bad from it.
Melanie Avalon
So I would think it's probably something you're eating. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina
I think it's probably a combination of inflammation and a food intolerance, so when I used to do a lot of extended fasting, which I'm glad I don't do as much of it as I used to, because I used to do quite a bit of it before, I also would notice similar things sometimes, and especially inflammation, like in my legs.
Vanessa Spina
Whenever I would do an extended water fast for four to five days, I would have no inflammation. It was amazing. It was an amazing feeling of lightness, and my legs especially would get really, I don't know what the word is, not toned, but just free of inflammation, and no swelling, whatever the opposite of swollen and puffy is, hydrated and just perfect.
Vanessa Spina
And then when I would go back to eating normally, I usually would have some return of the inflammation. And I have some friends who are like this as well with their legs. It tends to happen in the ankles or legs.
Vanessa Spina
And I think it can also be fluid shifts. Usually when you're fasting, maybe you're having a little bit of salted water, but you have way less sodium coming in without the food. So you also can release just water from the lowered amount of sodium being consumed, and also from the lowered retention and recycling of electrolytes.
Vanessa Spina
Your kidneys, when your insulin levels fall, which they do quite a bit during fasting, your kidneys don't reabsorb as many electrolytes, so people dump a lot of water, a lot of glycogen to you. But yeah, I think it's probably a combination of those things.
Vanessa Spina
But yeah, it can be really frustrating speaking from experience. I actually, I think, got to the point where I was kind of tired of the back and forth that I would experience from that, whereas now where I'm at, I have to say I don't have any issues with any inflammation, swelling, fluid imbalance issues, or anything like that.
Vanessa Spina
And I don't know, it would be interesting if I did a fast now to see if it would make much of a difference. But I just prefer the stability of it because the back and forth, I would get so much relief from inflammation when I would fast.
Vanessa Spina
But then as soon as I was consuming a lot of food normally after. But I have to say, I did figure out a lot of foods that were more inflammatory for me from it. So whenever you do an elimination diet, there's always a massive opportunity to reintroduce things very methodically.
Vanessa Spina
And a lot of people don't do that, which is actually one of the things that those studies were sort of talking about early in the episode is you can do a fast and get all these benefits, but then if you eat sort of the wrong foods when you reintroduce them, then you might end up causing more damage than if you didn't do the fast at all, which I definitely agree with.
Vanessa Spina
So you want to be specific about consuming healthy foods. You are what you eat, so what you consume definitely will become a part of your body and proteins and substrates and all that. So yeah, I think it's probably a combination.
Vanessa Spina
And if you reintroduce things really methodically, one at a time, and usually it's recommended to do a slice of something and then wait a day and see what happens and then do a little more. And it takes time, but it's invaluable what you learn from it.
Vanessa Spina
I really learned, especially with vegetables, which ones would make me very bloated and I never have bloat anymore because I just figured out what those were and I didn't know before. So yeah, it's a great opportunity to figure out what's really well aligned with your personal physiology.
Melanie Avalon
I'm glad that you pointed out the part about the fluid changes because that's definitely a huge shift and I think the soreness is part of the part that indicates to me that you're having some sort of immune response to the food likely because like pain signals
Vanessa Spina
Yeah, I don't remember having soreness. That part is really interesting and would be interesting to talk to a doctor who's familiar with fasting. Yeah.
Melanie Avalon
No, definitely. Yeah, so hopefully that helps. Maybe we can go to the question that related to the alcohol. All right. So now we have a question from Michelle and this is the one that relates to Dr. Stacy Sims.
Melanie Avalon
So this is perfect. Oh, by the way, did you reach out to her to interview her? Dr. Sims. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina
Yeah, she was on Huberman, but she had been on my radar already. And I had emailed her a little bit before she was on Huberman's podcast. And I think I told you, they wrote back and said that they didn't think it would be a good fit because she wasn't a fan of keto and intermittent fasting.
Vanessa Spina
And I realized that if you look up my podcast, it still had the old description where I talk about keto and fasting a lot. So I wrote back and I was like, oh, that's when the podcast used to be called Fasquito.
Vanessa Spina
And I also think athletes need different strategies. And I would love to talk to her and learn from her. They said, yeah, then that's great. She really likes that and would love to come on. And she was absolutely wonderful.
Vanessa Spina
I think it was my favorite episode of the podcast I've ever done.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, whoa. That's an endorsement.
Vanessa Spina
I know. She's like my favorite guest I've ever had on. She's so passionate about understanding women's specific physiology, but she's also so kind and down to earth. Yeah, really amazing.
Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. So Michelle's question, she says, Hey, Melanie, thank you for answering my question about modal diabetes on the podcast. And the reason she's addressing it to Melanie was I posted this, this post in the Facebook group.
Melanie Avalon
I was very excited. Love you, ladies. Thanks for the tips. Another question that I have about fasting is regarding women in their forties. I just turned 40 this year. I listened to a Huberman podcast.
Melanie Avalon
There we go. Recently where he interviewed Dr. Stacy Sims, she was talking about how women should not work out fasted. And then she puts the little like yikes face emoji, especially as we age and our hormones change.
Melanie Avalon
I don't love eating in the morning right away. And I like to work out fasted somewhere between 9am and noon. Any thoughts on this? I saw on Vanessa's Facebook group that she might be interviewing Dr.
Melanie Avalon
Stacy Sims soon or trying to thank you while we answered that last part. Yeah. So Vanessa, do you have thoughts on this, especially after interviewing Dr. Sims?
Vanessa Spina
Yeah, it's really interesting, I think. So she did mention that she thinks any woman who is active on a regular basis is an athlete. Mm-hmm. That's a definition. Yeah, even if it's recreational. Because I was, you know, telling her a little bit, like, I don't really think I'm an athlete.
Vanessa Spina
You know, I just work out recreationally. And she's like, no, if you do regular intentional exercise, you're an athlete. So that's the way she, that's her perspective on it. So she thinks that there's solid research showing that if women are doing resistance training, just a small amount of amino acid is about 15 grams before the workout is really beneficial for the hypothalamus to know that there's fuel on board,
Vanessa Spina
as she says it, and also for the recovery, it triggers certain aspects of recovery as well and helps women recover better from the workout. She also mentioned that women should have a protein meal, I think she said, within half an hour of a resistance training workout.
Vanessa Spina
And then she also mentioned that if you're going for endurance, that I think 30 grams of carb before. So she personally is an athlete. And she has something called like a protein coffee. And she makes an espresso shot with some protein powder in it.
Vanessa Spina
And she'll just like, sort of do a shot of that in the morning before heading out to do like a cold water swim or something pretty intense. I found this information pretty valuable. You mentioned that you don't love eating in the morning.
Vanessa Spina
And I'm very similar to that. I don't have an appetite in the morning. But I started eating anyway. And, you know, like I mentioned, I have my first meal around 10am. I usually work out around 11. And having a small meal, like if you just have a protein coffee or like I've been doing a scoop of protein with some oatmeal or with some yogurt, it's really not a huge meal that you feel it when you're working out.
Vanessa Spina
But I would say in terms of like feeling full, which I always worked out fasted partly because I wanted I didn't want to feel full working out. But I think it does. I have been noticing I've been enjoying my workouts so much more.
Vanessa Spina
I've been able to push so much harder. I'm doing a higher weight level now already. And I've gone from doing two to four workouts a week to doing five to six. And then I've also just added an endurance.
Vanessa Spina
So in the last week, I've done two. It's kind of funny, I call it strollerblading, but rollerblading with my stroller with my nine month old. It was so much fun. I went with a girlfriend twice last week.
Vanessa Spina
And this is like a roller coaster for the kid. Yeah, it was really fun. Damien slept the entire time through it. So the second the second time today he was awake and he was just loving it, zooming around.
Vanessa Spina
But this is like a 600 calorie burn according to my Apple watch. And it was really intense, like very hard work. It looks so easy. Like you're just gliding around, but it's a more intense workout way more than my weights or even running in some ways, but super satisfying if you want like a really intense workout.
Vanessa Spina
So the first time I did it, I, I think I was fasted and, or maybe I had just, I had, I know I didn't have any carbs. I had just had some protein in the morning because I was just doing resistance training in the morning.
Vanessa Spina
And I was struggling. Like I was really struggling during that, that hour. And today I chose to take her advice and I had some carbs before we left and it made a huge difference. I enjoyed it so much more.
Vanessa Spina
I was so much more powerful. It was just a much better workout. So I think I had a banana before we left and I had already had some protein powder earlier. So, you know, I understand the importance of, you know, the fasting windows for some people.
Vanessa Spina
And I was like that for so many years, but I think, Like I said, when we first started talking, I use those strategies specifically to help me lose fat. It was very effective keto. Although it has been said to not be the best diet for building muscle, it is, it has been said to be the best diet for losing fat.
Vanessa Spina
There's lots of different ways to do that as well. Even you know, high carb, low fat, or moderate carb, moderate fat, or however you want to, you know, choose your fuel mix. But I think, depending on where you're at, intermittent fasting can be amazing when you want to lose some fat.
Vanessa Spina
But I just want to say, don't be afraid of having a little bit of protein or even a little bit of carb before your workout. Especially if according to the research, it can help you recover better. And you might even enjoy working out more.
Melanie Avalon
Are you fasting at all now or are you eating a little bit throughout the day?
Vanessa Spina
So according to the international fasting consensus, I'm still doing intermittent fasting because the minimum is 14 hours. So I'm eating usually between 10 and seven, which is not that different from that's a nine hour eating window.
Vanessa Spina
It's not that different from what I used to do. But I'm glad you asked because it probably sounds like I'm not doing any fasting anymore. I still am. I'm just not doing a 16 eight, but now more doing a 59.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Okay. It's so funny how like when you've been fasting for so long, for longer amounts, like you and I were like 14 sounds, I mean, at least to me, like it doesn't sound like that much, but like it's like so much compared to normal, you know, like normal standard eating.
Melanie Avalon
We come from a different, you know, paradigm now, having been in the fasted world so long. I had one other thought about that. Oh, speaking of the fasting definition. So at the time of this recording that episode actually is this week, like is airing this week.
Melanie Avalon
It's funny because we do each time we do four different subject lines in the email. And then long story short, if people run email campaigns, they'll know how this works. But we do different subject lines.
Melanie Avalon
And then the most popular subject line, it sends the majority of the email or half of the emails to the most popular one. So when we were coming up with the lines this week, I saw all the different ones.
Melanie Avalon
And I knew that it was that week. And so I was like, we have to do something about the fasting definition. And so that that subject line was like, finally, we have a definition for fasting. And that was the most popular winner.
Melanie Avalon
So if you want to know the definition
Vanessa Spina
Yes, and I am planning to interview Dr. Grant Tinsley who spearheaded that paper.
Melanie Avalon
It's so exciting. Awesome. Yeah. So, you know, that was, that was super helpful. And I would love to interview Dr. Sims and maybe she, I'd be curious if interviewing her, if it would change my mind. And by, by change my mind, I mean, I think it's great that approach and that concern surrounding women and under fueling.
Melanie Avalon
So I'm not, it's not changed my mind on that. Like, I think it's, I think a lot of women do under fuel and do need more fuel. And I think a lot of women just in general could benefit from having this other approach to fasting.
Melanie Avalon
So I think that's great. I guess my, my thing, I'd be curious if I would change my mind on is does every woman need to adjust to that? So for example, like Michelle working out in the morning, doesn't love eating in the morning either, and hasn't communicated anything about not feeling well doing that.
Melanie Avalon
Like maybe, maybe she's not, but I'd be really, really curious if my thoughts would change on if you're a woman and you're doing physical activity and you feel fine and you're doing it fasted. Like, is that a problem?
Melanie Avalon
I'm assuming she would say that is still a problem.
Vanessa Spina
You'd have to ask her directly, but I think, okay, on the one hand, like I said earlier, she mentioned that these tools do have a place when someone is, say, obese, or has PCOS, or is metabolically unfit.
Vanessa Spina
So her, I think, concern is more for women who are not in that situation and are already really lean, maybe lower body fat percentage, and then are at that risk of under-feeling because you also don't have a lot of stored fuel at that point, right?
Vanessa Spina
I would say, if you were to ask her, I don't know exactly what she would say, but I would say she would probably say something like, you could do it, but you might shortchange like some of your recovery or some of your hormone levels.
Vanessa Spina
One thing that she's also really big on is eating more protein when you're older. So if you're targeting 30 grams of protein per meal, if you're postmenopausal, she believes you should target more like 40 grams of protein per meal, and her protein recommendations are on the upper end.
Vanessa Spina
It's closer to 1.1 gram of protein per pound of body weight to 1.2, very specific. Again, based on a lot of research. So she's on the upper end of protein recommendations. I think that's because of, you know, she's talking more specifically to an athletic population.
Vanessa Spina
I didn't really ask her a lot of questions about postmenopause, so I know that, so for example, Michelle, she just turned 40, so probably not even perimenopausal yet, or maybe, but she did mention something specifically to women who are in perimenopause, and she has two amazing books.
Vanessa Spina
I think one of them is called Roar, I'm reading it right now. The other one is sort of a follow-up to that one, so I think she has specific recommendations for people in different stages, so I don't really know what exactly, because you mentioned, you know, especially as we age and our hormones change, so maybe you're experiencing some hormonal changes, you'd have to ask her directly to know for sure what she would say.
Melanie Avalon
Somebody else who might be an interesting person to listen to would be Dr. Mindy Peltz. She talks a lot about menopause and fasting.
Vanessa Spina
Our last question is from Diane and the subject is glycogen stores. Does the food you eat during your feast affect your glycogen stores? For example, if I eat a salad and protein with dressing, does it store less glycogen than if I have pasta or maybe extra wine with dinner?
Vanessa Spina
Does when you eat the pasta during the fast affect how fast you burn the stored glycogen? For instance, if I open with pasta and close with a snack of turkey, does that change the way it burns? I'm truly enjoying your podcasts and learn something new every week.
Vanessa Spina
Keep up this important work, ladies.
Melanie Avalon
Awesome, Diane. Thank you for your question. And so we think we think she's probably combining two different words in her question, because it's a word that is not a word. So I think she's confused between glycogen and glucagon.
Melanie Avalon
And she kind of made a new word from that, which is awesome. We love creativity. But assuming she's referring to glycogen, which is stored glucose in our liver and our muscles. So the answer is yes. Yes, and is the answer.
Melanie Avalon
So basically, I think it's more important to have a broader view of everything. So rather than thinking about it, like in this specific meal, this order of the food is going to lead to this storage of the glycogen in this order.
Melanie Avalon
It's more about the entire meal. How much glycogen are you going to store from it? And then in the fasted state, what is the hierarchy of burning fuel? So glycogen, like I said, it comes from glucose.
Melanie Avalon
So any food that has carbs can become glycogen. We can also create glucose from excess protein. The pathway there is a little bit longer. And the carbs are going to be the main thing that are more instantly filling up your glycogen stores.
Melanie Avalon
So like in her example of salad and protein with dressing, does it store less glycogen than pasta? Most likely, yes. Well, I mean, but it also depends on the dressing. You know, it's a dressing like really high, like honey mustard, sugar.
Melanie Avalon
So it really just depends on the amount of carbs and glucose that actually end up getting stored. It's like the net carb load. The interesting thing about the extra wine, and this is why it relates to what we were saying earlier, is that wine actually does temporarily, or alcohol, does temporarily decrease glycogen stores, or it can, and decrease blood sugar levels because it turns off the process where the liver is creating glucose and glycogen itself,
Melanie Avalon
gluconeogenesis. And what's interesting about that, which is another tangent side note, but the majority of the blood sugar in your bloodstream is not what you just ate. The majority of it is from your liver churning it out.
Melanie Avalon
So that's a little bit, a slight misconception people have. And that's how things may work like berberine, like my berberine supplement, for example, which can lower blood sugar and metformin, and they may be working in part by impeding the ability of the liver to produce glucose.
Melanie Avalon
Back to the question. She's asking about, you know, the order of it. So like opening a pasta, closing with turkey, does that change the way it burns? At least for storing glycogen, I wouldn't think about it that way so much because it's really going to be the net load of the overall meal.
Melanie Avalon
Because when you're in the eating state, you're in the eating, the fuel storing state, regardless. I would eat in an order that both, that best benefits your digestion and your hunger levels, which might relate to this a little bit.
Melanie Avalon
But for example, people often find, and we talk about this a lot, like opening a protein and centering your meal around protein can have a really safe shading effect, get you the nutrients you need. And then you might find that, you know, having carbs after might be a better approach for you.
Melanie Avalon
You can try different things. This is where CGM really comes in handy. And we've talked a lot about CGM's on today's show. So if you would like a continuous glucose monitor, you can go to Nutrisense.com slash if podcast and you can use the coupon code if podcast to get a discount.
Melanie Avalon
I believe it's $30 off and one free month of free nutritionist support. So we really recommend that. But just to wrap up Diane's question. So yes, it would be the overall net load, mostly of carbs, protein a little bit as well.
Melanie Avalon
But a lot of that's from carbs is determining your glycogen stores. And then oh, one last thing, as far as burning, so like the hierarchy of burning in the fasted state, we naturally burn the glycogen from our liver.
Melanie Avalon
And once we deplete that, that's when we enter into the fat burning. Well, that's when we can more likely enter into the ketogenic state. The glycogen in our muscles is actually saved for like muscle related activity.
Melanie Avalon
So we don't really tap into that while fasting, at least not like in a daily fast. Do you have thoughts?
Vanessa Spina
That was the most perfect summary and answer ever. There's nothing I could possibly add to that
Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Thank you. Well, so hopefully that was helpful, Diane. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Loving the questions. We're approaching next week is episode 399. It's a special guest episode with Barry Conrad, who's back on the show.
Melanie Avalon
Definitely check it out because we dive deep. Actually, it's kind of like the flip side of today's conversation. We dive deep into fasting as a man. He maintains an epic, epic body composition, does his daily fasting.
Melanie Avalon
We talk about his eating window. We talk about how much time he spends in the gym, which is not a lot of time at all. He's an actor and he's in a lot of really cool things. So definitely check that episode out next week.
Melanie Avalon
And then 400 after that, we're going to do something special. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, directly email questions at ipodcast.com, or you can go to ipodcast.com and you can submit questions there.
Melanie Avalon
You can get the show notes at ipodcast.com slash episode 398. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are ipodcast. I am Melanie Avalon and Vanessa is Ketogenic Girl. All right. I think that is all the things.
Melanie Avalon
Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?
Vanessa Spina
I had so much fun. I love all the questions and can't wait for the next episode.
Melanie Avalon
Likewise, I will talk to you in two weeks. Okay.
Vanessa Spina
Sounds great. Bye.
Melanie Avalon
Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed.
Melanie Avalon
If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
Melanie Avalon
See you next week.