Welcome to Episode 400 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
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More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com
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TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 401 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What, When, Wine, and creator of the supplement line, Avalon X. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Luxe red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions at ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 401 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here. This is going to be a really sentimental, emotional episode for me. I'm here today with Vanessa Spina on her last episode on the show, Vanessa. Although, actually, we're going to have to have you come back if you're down as like a random guest co-host every now and then if you want to in the future, maybe.
Vanessa Spina
That would be so nice because I was just thinking as you're talking like, oh my gosh, this is going to be my last time saying hello, everyone. So yes, I would love to come back from time to time. That would be so much fun.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, we should do it. We should have like a reunion episode. Yeah, that would be fantastic. It would be cool if I could orchestrate a reunion episode. Although, I guess, well you know Cynthia. Cynthia knows Jen. Do you know Jen? You know Jen? Yes. Wait, do we all know each other?
Vanessa Spina
Yes, we should have a four-way. Yeah, Cynthia was just messaging me this morning because she re-released my podcast, the episode of her podcast that I was on. And so she was messaging me this morning about it. So yeah, we're all, I don't talk to Jen as often. I talk to Cynthia probably more often, but I did meet Jen earlier this year. So yeah, we all know each other.
Melanie Avalon
and you and I have not recorded together since I met Cynthia in person, which was so exciting. Yeah, how was that? Oh, it was so exciting. It's so weird to meet somebody in person who you know so well and have talked to so much and then meet them in real life, you know? I feel like people, especially it's weird because like I've seen her on obviously Instagram and social media, so I know what she looks like, but I feel like people still look in real life sometimes different. Like she's so she's so like petite. She was doing an interview for her podcast, like a live podcast, so I went and watched. Oh, that's fun. Yeah, it was it was really amazing. It was so nice to meet her in person. So now I just have to meet you. You want to come to the US?
Vanessa Spina
I'm sure it'll happen at some point, you know, I'll be so nice, but that's so fun. You got to meet Cynthia and fun for her too
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so but in any case so Vanessa you have a lot of well Okay, so a few things a you have a lot of really intense amazing life change is happening with your your boys and homeschooling And all the things and so this just wasn't going to work out so much anymore for you know Everything that's going on in life, which is completely understandable. I've had the time of my life doing this show so many laughs I feel like we've tackled so much especially content related to protein Which people have so many questions about and I just feel like you've brought so much to the show and I've had so much fun And I'm gonna miss you so much
Vanessa Spina
too. Yeah, it feels bittersweet. It's been so amazing to do this with you. I never co-hosted a podcast with anyone else, so you've been just the most amazing host and co-host. From the beginning, you made it such an amazing experience. It was so exciting joining with you, doing our cover art, countless evenings that we spent together giggling and sharing our various experiences and Q&A with listeners. I'm so thankful for the experience. Honestly, it was really magical and special. I'm so thankful to you for inviting me on to co-host with you. I've just enjoyed it so much. You were just a dream co-host. I couldn't imagine doing it with anyone else. I'm much more of a solo act to myself. To join forces with someone else, I don't think it would have happened with anyone else but you, but you just made it so amazing, such a beautiful experience. Our listeners, I'm so thankful to the listeners. Such an incredible community that you've built here from originally starting the podcast with Jin. For me being a listener over the years and then hearing Cynthia take the torch from you was really great. Then it was such a thrill to take the baton from her mixing analogies with torches and batons. It's been amazing. I think you've been just here all along with all these different co-hosts. I think that's a fun thing in itself that you get to bring on different co-hosts who can share different backgrounds and different experiences. I'm glad that I got to be the protein one because I know over the years there were a lot of questions about intermittent fasting and protein. I think it's really been an exciting time, especially in the last year. Because of certain studies in particular, we've really answered the question of whether or not you can actually do intermittent fasting without compromising on your lean body mass, without risking your lean body mass and being able to maintain it as well as grow your muscle. Even if you're eating within a certain window, there's actually research that just came out from Dr. Luc Van Loon's group where they showed with intermittent fasting that you won't compromise any of your lean body mass or any of your muscles. A lot of those alarms and fears, I think, that were raised previously had a lot of people concerned about maybe they should stop intermittent fasting. We also had the other research by also Dr. Luc Van Loon and Dr. Jorn Tomellen that came out in December showing that if you eat 100 grams of protein in one sitting, those amino acids are just circulating and available in your peripheral blood supply for up to 12 hours and probably longer. It doesn't matter when you eat your protein. You don't have to be so concerned or worried or stressed about eating it within a certain anabolic window. What matters is you hit your protein goal for the day and you can do that in one meal or two meals or a multi-course meal that you have or however it is that you structure a day.
Vanessa Spina
The bottom line is that intermittent fasting and building and maintaining your lean body mass and muscle don't have to be in conflict with each other. I think that was the big question that a lot of long-term listeners and intermittent fasteners had, especially in this community. So I really feel excited that we're in a time right now where the research is providing the answers because I think there was a little bit of conflicting information on both sides before, but I think really in the last year, it's really been settled. They say science is never settled, but I think it's been settled to the greatest degree that it could be, at least for now, until new research comes out changing things. But I feel really good about that and I feel really grateful and thankful and appreciative about my time co-hosting with you. So it's really been an honor to be co-host with you.
Melanie Avalon
Well, I echo back literally all of that, everything you said in the beginning about you being a dream co-host. And yes, we honestly just had the best time. It shall be missed. And I agree so much about the protein stuff. And so actually for today's episode, I reached out to listeners and asked for questions for you AMA style for our last episode together. So this actually speaks to what you're talking about, the amazing audience and all their amazing questions. We got a lot of questions for you. So shall we jump in?
Vanessa Spina
been to some of them? Yes, I would love to. That sounds great. And thank you to all the listeners for sending in your questions.
Melanie Avalon
So actually the first one I'm going to ask relates to what you were just talking about because you were talking about how the view on protein has evolved during the course of even being on this show. So a similar question, but for intermittent fasting specifically, Judy says, okay, seriously, how have your views changed on intermittent fasting from when you first started the podcast to now?
Vanessa Spina
I love this question. Thank you so much for submitting it. I think it's such an important one. And I really this is where I'm at completely with it. I mean, first of all, you're gonna laugh, but I've fallen back in love with intermittent fasting. And I started so after we went to Greece, I decided I had been reflecting for a while, you know, I was doing a lot of carb experiments and things over the summer. And I realized that I just wasn't feeling optimally. I wasn't feeling as energetic as I was before. I wasn't feeling as focused as I was before. I was feeling hungry all the time. I also was having these like aches, body aches and things I don't normally have. And I realized it's just that sort of a moderate to higher carb approach or lifestyle just isn't it for me. So I decided to fully go back to high protein keto. And I jumped back on doing that by going back into intermittent fasting and doing one meal a day. So I've been doing that now since we got back from Greece. So it's been about, I would say about six weeks now. And I'm loving it. Like it's just been amazing. I'm completely back in love with intermittent fasting, I would say like 99% of the days since then I've just done one meal a day. I usually open my eating window at 4pm and fast until then. And I feel amazing. Like I just have all the energy. I feel great during the day. I'm able to get all the things I need to get done. And I'm not distracted by work or feeling hungry. And I also realized that ketones are a big thing for me. It's a big part of intermittent fasting for me. And I don't think that carbs in themselves are inherently bad in any way. And I don't want that to come across. I think different people have different lifestyles and things that work for them. For me, I feel optimal with a pretty low carb approach, like low to very low carb intake. And also doing at least two meals a day or more fasting, I get some expression of ketones. And what I figured out is that it's not that carbs I think are bad for me, especially healthy whole food carbs. It's that they are anti ketogenic for me. And I think it's for me, the ketones that help me feel so satiated combined with protein. So when I have more carbs, it starts to make me hungrier. So I did an episode about this on my podcast, and I had such an outpouring from listeners who said they had been experimenting doing the same things that I was, and adding in more and more carb, and they were feeling hungry all the time throughout the day. So I think that that was kind of leading me away from the intermittent fasting is that I was just hungry all throughout the day because of the carbs. So I went, you know, back into ketosis, back to doing, you know, OMAD, and I feel amazing. Now to your question, what do I think about intermittent fasting? I really think that if you look at the body of evidence on what intermittent fasting does compared with caloric restriction, there's a lot of overlap between the two.
Vanessa Spina
And I really think for myself that for the most part, intermittent fasting is a great way of doing caloric restriction and a lot of the benefits from caloric restriction or that are attributed to intermittent fasting come from the caloric restriction that happens very effortlessly for a lot of us when we do intermittent fasting. But I do think that there's just so much overlap between the two that a lot of the benefits are coming from that caloric restriction, but it's just way easier to do caloric restriction in this way. I do think there's a little bit of magic, a little bit of a magical aspect to it, which does come from the ketones. And I think that when you are doing intermittent fasting, closer to the more expression of ketones towards the end of the fast, in terms of autophagy, it's pretty much awash compared to most of the research that I've seen. If you compare caloric restriction and the autophagy from that, and you compare intermittent fasting and the autophagy from that after a 24 hour period, it tends to even out. So, you know, I think it's just a really amazing tool for doing caloric restriction and getting some ketones. And for some people, it just works. It's quite amazing. And if you're one of those people, you know it and you absolutely love it and what it does for you. And I definitely feel that way, but I also don't let myself get too carried away because I also look at what the research is showing. And I think, you know, there are some benefits to it that can just be attributed to the caloric restriction. And I think there's also some of it that come from the ketosis or ketogenesis that does get sort of entered into and amplified, especially if you're not on a high carb diet, you're going to get, you know, more expression of ketones. So that's kind of where I'm at when I look at it and the most honest, most honest way.
Melanie Avalon
many things that I love here. Okay, so it's great because you actually, you actually answered Nadia's or Nydia's question. So I announced in the post that you were leaving. So her first part said, what? Question mark? Question mark? No. And then she said, how are you feeling now that you got back to keto? We are going to miss her. So you answer that question. It's so interesting to me because it's interesting how people really can function. People feel better on different macros. And I'm curious, did you ever try the fruit only carb approach? I'm just curious.
Vanessa Spina
What do you mean, like just fruit and meat, kind of like a carnivore?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, like when you were doing carbs, you were doing.
Vanessa Spina
So yeah, I had started experimenting with adding more and more carb in throughout the summer because I was experimenting, especially with targeting it around my workouts and also targeting it a little bit in the last week of my cycle. And this was partially influenced from Dr. Stacy Sims work and some other experts that I interviewed. So I had added in, when I added in my pre-workout meal, I was having some oatmeal with protein powder in it. So that was like the main carb that I added back in and then the rest were really from fruit. I did try some rice a few times and I just found that the higher carb, the more carb I added back in, the more fat I had to scale back on. And that's, I think, harder. I think very, very low fat than it is to go very, very low carb. Because if you're having a piece of salmon, it's like there's protein and fat in there. And I don't know if you've ever had protein, I mean salmon, that's very low fat. It's just not very good. It's hard to get proteins that have zero fat in it, whereas it's a lot easier to just not have carbs. So I think at some point when you start adding back carbon, you're going to get to a point where you're adding in carb and you also have fat in there. So you're not fully keto and you're not fully high carb, low fat. You're kind of somewhere in between. And that's kind of what I was finding is I never tried just only fruit. I think it was like, but most of the carbs I was eating were fruit. And for me personally, it made me very hungry. And I think, again, it's because they're anti ketogenic. So there's just no way that I could maintain ketosis or much of it at all, even with intermittent fasting when I was adding those carbs in. And so it was combining in a way that made it harder and harder for me to do that fast throughout the day. I was fighting against myself. That makes sense.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, completely. And it's interesting. So like, for me, so I will have salmon, but I won't have it every night, but I will just basically not, I'll just never add fats to anything. And then in general, my proteins are lean. So it's, you know, the scallops and a lot of scallops and bare moondi and the occasional salmon, occasional fillet, mignon. But I find if I just stick with those proteins and like a lot of them, then I don't really have to think about the fat aspect. I just chalk it up to like, it all kind of works in the end. I feel more like, so for me, it's actually easier doing fasting with high carb, low fat. I can do that every night. And I feel satiated. I feel it feels sustainable compared to when I go keto. After a while I get like, it gets hard, which is interesting. So then I need to like, bring in the carbs. So it's just really interesting how different things work for different people.
Vanessa Spina
Yeah, and I still have fruit, like I still eat, like I just had a protein shake with strawberries and blueberries and raspberries, and I had some dried apple before that. So like, I'm not removing all fruit, but it's just the amount that I had been bringing back in. I just feel so much better going back, you know, lower, like cutting out the oatmeal, cutting out any of the other carbs that I was having. I do have more legumes now, but it's just, I'm finding that once I went back, you know, cutting back on the carbs, it was just so much easier to get back into that pattern of like fasting throughout the day and not thinking about food at all. So I don't know, for some people, it's probably like the fasting leads the way. And for others, it's like the macros and how they feel lead the way, but they can, they kind of compliment each other. I think especially keto and fasting compliment each other so well, because they're such a similar state. So I think as for me personally, it just makes it effortless to do, you know, the longer intermittent fasting. And I just wasn't finding that when I was doing higher carbs. So I feel really happy that I've like found my way back here and it just feels right. And I'm glad that I also experimented and I think it's so important for people to unapologetically experiment and not be concerned about identifying with a different diet or a different lifestyle. You know, psychology shows us that identifying with different lifestyles and dietary approaches actually makes us more successful with them and makes us commit and, you know, be more compliant with them. But I also think it's a double-edged sword because you can get into a situation where you're like, I can't go and try high carb for a summer or I can't go and, you know, do this or that because I'm keto or I'm this or that. And you kind of sometimes identify with your lifestyle. And I think it's so important to experiment all the time. And every time I do these experiments, I always find my way back to the way that I feel optimal. And I want everyone to find that optimal for themselves. And the only way to do it I think is to try a lot of different things. So I really hope that, you know, people feel encouraged and supported to go out and experiment with all these different things. Try high carb, moderate carb, low carb, high protein, low protein, you know, even vegan carnivore. Try everything and you'll find where you really feel your best.
Melanie Avalon
I agree so much. And I think it's really awesome that both you and I experiment and we both landed or we tend to land at the opposite sides of the spectrum, which just goes to show that different things work for different people. So although I feel like the one commonality with us is we're always high protein. Yes. High protein and fruit. Yes. I love my fruit. Which speaking of Denise, she says it is still hard for me to believe she can consume over 200 grams of protein with only one or two meals. It is so difficult for me to get in even 80 grams. So are you actually getting in that much protein, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina
So it's funny because since I went back to doing the OMAD, I'm definitely not hitting 200 grams anymore. And so I just did an Ask Me Anything special. It was actually the AMA number 20 and episode 636. And I talk about exactly what I eat in a day. This actually just came out this past Monday. And I talk about how I get to that 200 grams of protein, because I actually had this question from some other listeners in my podcast group as well. And so I really go into detail on the exact meals and everything that I have when I hit that 200 grams. But since I've gone back to OMAD, I have not been hitting that much. I'm a lot closer to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. So it's definitely come down from that. And I feel great hitting that number. I think 200 grams of protein per day is not necessary by any means. I think there's definitely diminishing returns after you pass the point of 1 gram per pound of body weight. And for listeners in Europe, that's closer to 1.6 grams of protein per kg. And I just think, yeah, for the most part, I'm not hitting that. And I think it's probably better for me to be closer to that 1 gram of pound per pound of body weight. But I'm just one of those people who loves protein. And I found all these different ways, you know, like making protein bread. And I've been doing all these recipes lately on my Instagram and on my website, which are all like high protein recipes, like the cottage cheese viral, the viral cottage cheese flatbread. I made that also into a pizza crust, you know, making frozen yogurt, which is super high protein and sugar free, high protein cheesecake. I recently made high protein cottage cheese pancakes, like all these different recipes helped me to really hit pretty high on protein. And I'm also someone who loves eating protein. So the reason that I would get to 200 grams of protein in a day for me was just because I enjoyed it. It wasn't because 200 grams was conferring more benefits for me than hitting around one gram of protein per pound of body weight. So once you get there, a lot of research shows that there's diminishing returns in terms of building muscle and also on satiety and appetite. So protein is the most satiating macronutrient. It secretes so many satiety hormones that act on the brain as well and are secreted by the gut. And it helps us to feel full because we have to get that protein every day. But once you get to that amount, there's really no need to go above that. Like I was just doing that because I really enjoyed protein, not because it was making me feel that much fuller or anything else. I also have these chocolate protein puddings. I make a protein ice cream. So I just have all these tools that I've developed over time and recipes that really helped me get a lot of protein in. And of course, protein shakes, all of these things helped me to hit that protein target. And I often just overshot it just because I liked it, not because getting to 200 grams was conferring any additional benefits.
Melanie Avalon
While we are the same there, I mean historically, I just love protein. It is just so good. We actually have some specific questions about just nuances of protein. So Tammy wants to know, she says she gets so confused. 100 to 200 grams of protein. Is that six ounces of fillets a day or two chicken breasts? Can you let us know how many ounces a day we should eat? I guess of food. And actually, and then also related to that, just to like discuss all of it, Denise wants to know when figuring out grams of protein and meat, poultry, seafood, et cetera, should it be weighed before cooking, raw or after cooking? The weight does change quite a bit. I normally estimate six grams of protein per one ounce of cooked protein.
Vanessa Spina
Okay, so I actually have this graphic that I created on my social media. So if you want to get, let's say 30 grams of protein in one meal, whether that's a snack or a meal, because you want to make sure to get that at each of your meals, you don't necessarily have to hit one gram of protein per pound of body weight. That's really, I think, optimal, but as long as you're getting at least 35 grams of high quality protein, if it's animal sourced, it can even be 30 grams. But if it's not animal sourced, then you definitely want to get at least 35 at your meals. This is just per meal, what that looks like. So I think that makes the most sense in terms of explaining per meal as opposed to for a whole day. So if you're having, for example, chicken breast, as you were asking, that's about six ounces of chicken breast is 30 grams of protein in grams, that's 175 grams of chicken breast. And you always want to measure it raw because I know that's confusing for people, but usually we always go by raw because that's how food is sold. So that's how you're able to measure and quantify things. Whereas if you measure it cooked, obviously you lose a lot of the water, but it would be much harder to compute things if you were measuring things cooked because it's going to be variable. Whereas when you have the raw weight, you can just see what it is when you buy it. So it's easier to go by raw weights. If you were having eggs, that's 4.6 to 6 whole large eggs. It's a lot. 30 grams of protein is 4.5 to 6 large eggs, whole eggs. If you're doing that in egg whites, it's about 8.8 egg whites or almost nine egg whites. If you're having salmon, that's 5.8 ounces or 167 grams. If you were having plain yogurt, it's one and a half cups of plain yogurt. If you were having beef, that's 5.2 ounces or 148 grams. If you're having turkey, it's about 6.3 ounces or 180 grams. If that was in bacon, it would be 9.2 ounces or 260 grams because obviously bacon is a lot more fat. It's like protein and fat, probably half and half. It's delicious too. Yes. And if you were having whey protein, it's 25 to 30 grams because whey protein is about 11% leucine. So 25 to 30 grams of whey protein is serving as 30 grams. It's the most straightforward with whey protein because it's 30 grams in weight and it's also 30 grams of protein. That's some examples in ounces. I do have this posted on my Instagram and it is a little infographic with the exact portions to optimize muscle protein synthesis. I hope that that's helpful. Again, with the weights, always go by raw because that's usually what it is going by when you're looking at macro breakdowns because that's how food is sold.
Melanie Avalon
That was insanely helpful. Also related, so you're saying, you know, we don't necessarily have to have that 200 grams of protein a day or that, so two questions here. What do we need to have minimum for the protein? That's my question. And then Michelle said, we are going to miss you, Vanessa Spina, with the little like tragically crying emoji, the one that's like crying and like its mouth is like open, it's like so upset, that emoji. I'm really gonna miss this too. I know, she says, good luck with everything, with the emoji, with the hearts, we love that one. The smiling emoji with the hearts. I'm jealous you live in Europe. It seems amazing over there. I guess I wanna know more about the 30 grams of protein we need to stimulate muscle protein synthesis. I've been making myself eat a little something before the gym lately, but it's usually just a protein bar with 15 grams of protein, but then I have about 40 grams of protein after the gym and animal protein. Is that okay? Or do I need to have more protein before my workout? Thank you. So my question is, what minimum would you put on total protein intake and then do we also need to have this 30 grams at a time to stimulate muscle protein synthesis and then her situation with the gym?
Vanessa Spina
I mean, I hate to say it, but the RDA for protein is the minimum amount that you can get away with without really, like, to avoid disease, but you can also actually build muscle at that, at the RDA, which surprises a lot of people. And I recently got to interview, as you know, my hero, Dr. Luke Van Loon. He had some things to share about protein that I had really never considered. And he, he's really, his main message was that your body adjusts to whatever protein you give it. So in some ways, you know, I think he believes we make a little bit too much out of, you know, the protein question, which is kind of blasphemy in some ways, like he's a protein scientist and he studies is, there's definitely a amount that's optimal and it's not the RDA, but the RDA of that 0.8 grams per kilogram is probably just what you need as like a floor to avoid disease. And he said you can actually build muscle at the RDA level too. So it's not optimal though, right? So if you want optimal, then that is, according to the research, closer to 0.72 grams of protein per pound of body weight, which is about 1.6 grams per kilogram. So that's like where you want to be if you are someone who is focused on building and retaining all the lean mass, that's where you want to be. So you know, you can portion that up throughout your day, but a lot has been made about getting at least 30 grams of protein per meal. I think maybe a little bit too much may have been made of that. Now that I've interviewed so many different protein experts on this topic, I think the latest cutting edge research is showing us that what matters is that you hit your protein target for the day at the end of the day. And it doesn't need to be within a certain anabolic window. It just needs to be somewhere in the 24 hours since you did your workout in order to optimize your muscle growth. It doesn't need to be 45 minutes after your workout as some people make it out to me. There's a lot of people who do have these very specific recommendations and break it down further into women. And I've talked to some very seasoned scientists on the other end whose opinion, this is not my opinion, but their opinion is that a lot of times because the fitness space is so crowded, there are people who will have a very specific message because it's a way to garner more eyes on their work. And it's not necessarily what the research is actually showing in terms of outcomes. So I think that it probably places unnecessary stress on people. And that's what I love so much about the research by Dr. Jorn Tremelon and Dr. Luke Van Loon is they found as long as you get the protein in, if you eat a hundred grams of protein at one meal, it's just going to circulate in your peripheral bloodstream. It's not going to turn to fat. It's just going to circulate the amino acids are going to circulate and be available to be taken up by your muscle tissue, by your organ tissues. And it's just going to stay there like floating around until your body needs it.
Vanessa Spina
And at some point it'll all be taken up. And, you know, it doesn't have to be before you work out, after you work out, it just needs to be sometime within 24 hours of your workout. After 24 hours, there is diminishing returns in terms of the impact that you would have on your muscle. And the other key message that Dr. Loon especially conveyed was that the most important thing is actually getting the resistance training done, because as much as protein can help us from losing muscle mass, the main signal really is the resistance training for building muscle. So the protein helps, but you have to get the resistance training actually done. So that's, yeah, I think that addressed most of your questions.
Melanie Avalon
One quick question from me. So you're talking about the amino acids just circulating. Do some of them, though, turn into glucose?
Vanessa Spina
So, he said, and according to their research, they just keep circulating in your bloodstream until they're taken up by different tissues. And I asked him very pointedly.
Melanie Avalon
it's different, right, than what we've been, like what we've been saying.
Vanessa Spina
And their research is the only research that did muscle biopsies for 12 hours, measuring muscle protein synthesis. And Dr. Tramellon said at the end of the 12 hours, it was still going. So they stopped taking muscle biopsies, but he's very sure that it wasn't just stopping at 12 hours because that's when they stopped taking the biopsies, right? So the protein, the amino acids, don't get turned into anything else. I asked him very pointedly, at what point does it turn into fat, right? Because he said only in the situation where someone is massively over-consuming protein as well as fat and carbohydrate, but massively over-consuming it to the point where their body couldn't possibly use it, that's when the body would potentially turn it into fat, but way after it would have already turned the carbs into fat and the fat and taken the fat up. So it's only in an extreme scenario where the protein is consumed in such an excess in addition to other energy calories as well. And he said it could potentially be stored at some point, but what they've seen is that the amino acids just stay floating around. And some of it is taken up by your muscle, some of it is actually just taken up right away by your gut even during the digestive process as fuel for your intestinal cells. And the rest is utilized as building blocks for your different enzymes and hormones and tissues and skin, hair and nails, our entire body is mostly protein. So it makes a lot of sense. And that's really what the latest, most cutting edge research is showing.
Melanie Avalon
So that's different than what we were thinking about, you know, what were they saying like 60? There was a six in there like 60% 60 60% what what what six am I thinking of? Yeah.
Vanessa Spina
It was, I believe, Dr. Don Lehman said every 100 grams of protein, I think 60 grams of it. Becomes glucose, yeah. He'd almost have to like have them both on and have a debate because I think they both firmly believe what they believe. But I think that it would be really interesting to ask, you know, Don about his thoughts on Dr. Tom Ellen's work because it just came out, you know, in December. Actually, now it's coming up on a year, oh my gosh, it feels so recent to me. But it is the most recent research and it's the most extensive because most of the research that was done prior to that, they only measured rates of muscle protein synthesis for like four or five hours. And I also asked them, all right, so we know it takes 30 grams of protein to initiate muscle protein synthesis, right? Where this leucine threshold is triggered and the level of leucine in your blood rises by two to three grams. And this is what is this anabolic muscle building signal that the body receives. So I said, what happens when you eat five grams of protein or 10 grams of protein or 15 grams of protein? Like, are you still stimulating muscle protein synthesis, but just to a lesser degree? And he's like, that is legit the next 30 years of research. So you don't know the answer. It just seems that once you get to 30 grams of protein, that's when you get this big amplified signal and below that you just don't get a signal. Like nothing, maybe like something's happening, but it's nothing that we can pick up or that we haven't been able to pick up yet. So we'll see maybe in the future, we'll find out. But so far it seems that you really do need to hit at least 30 grams of protein. So going back to what we were just talking about, you know, if your goal is, if your target for the day is like 90 grams of protein, it's very easy to break that up into three times 30 grams, right? If it's a hundred grams of protein, like three times 33 or 34, and you can also do it all at one meal because you can have a hundred grams of protein at one meal and it's all going to just turn into circulating amino acids for your muscles to take
Melanie Avalon
up. Awesome. Well, I am so intrigued because I'm, I'm like dying to know I want to hear this. I'm debated out between those two people. I mean, I know for me, the reason I started, like the reason I came to high protein, you were talking about how you just like the taste of it, which is the same for me. And I, right after college, had this epiphany where I was like, oh, I could eat just lean protein and basically eat all I want. And I don't think it's going to turn into fat. So it was like my diet hack. That's when I fell into the rabbit hole of high protein. Okay. One more, one more protein question. And then I have some, we have some fun questions for you. I mean, these are fun, but we have some non-protein questions for you. Brooke says I have a 26 year old son who is vegetarian, more than likely not getting in the protein he needs and not sure he really wants to hear my opinion on being vegetarian. What would be the quickest and easiest way to share with him the importance of protein? I would love for him to listen to your podcast, but I know he won't. Maybe a specific research study, any thoughts or suggestions? Thank you. And I will say this is actually appropriate timing. So while we're recording this right now is the week I aired my episode with Dr. Michael Greger and literally had a moment where we talked about what he thought is the most anti-aging thing you can do. Or he was saying like the one thing that, oh, it was the one thing that affects all the aging pathways. And he was saying to eat a low protein diet. So to
Vanessa Spina
further confuse people. Okay, I just want to say one quick thing on this that I learned in the last year, there's something because this was one of those things like we talked about haunted me. There's one thing that people think of as mTOR and then there's good mTOR and there's bad mTOR and the simplest way to break it down is eating protein, good mTOR, doing resistant training, good mTOR. This is not bad mTOR. Over eating calories from fat and carb, bad mTOR, right? That's like you're signaling growth to the fat cells, you're signaling inflammation and growth to the wrong cells. Signaling growth to your muscle is not bad mTOR and I think that people need to start thinking of mTOR that way and this is like my own thing so like it's probably very unscientific but this is what I have gleaned from so many interviews is that there is good mTOR and there's bad mTOR and people are so confused because they've been told that mTOR is bad for longevity and I think it's such a disservice because no one should be avoiding the good mTOR, the eating protein mTOR and the resistance training muscle building mTOR. Does that make sense? Like you just don't want to be avoiding that because that's what's going to make you live longer because you're going to be stronger and more durable, right? And the longevity research that we've seen where they are suppressing mTOR, so much of it is rodent-based and it has nothing to do, like we're not putting mice like on strength training programs and like having them build muscle, right? Like it's, I think it's really really backwards and I hope in the coming years people start to disassociate the negativity they have around mTOR because there's good mTOR and there's bad mTOR and I really think that the bad mTOR is all just excess calories that's sending these growth signals but to the fat cells instead of the muscle cells. So just want to say that.
Melanie Avalon
really quickly about that. Yeah, please. I bet this is also related. I wrap a mice in, which is, you know, a longevity, potential longevity pharmaceutical compound. It acts on both mTOR complexes. But the reason people would low dose it for longevity versus the high dose is because then you can make it preferentially, hopefully just affect the quote good mTOR, not the bad mTOR, just a random fun fact. So I learned that recently. That's awesome. But yes.
Vanessa Spina
back to Brooke's question. This is such a tough question and I had to sit on it and think, okay, what would I do if Luca came to me one day and said he wanted to be vegan just like I did when I was 17 and said the same thing to my parents. And so, I mean, I don't think that's going to be so much an issue for me personally, which I know is not helpful, but every single day I say to Luca and my husband does this too, like eggs and beef and chicken, you know, protein is what makes you strong, especially things like eggs, which are so nutrient dense, liver, like all these things. And he has taken that in and he will like be eating his dinner and he'll like flex his muscles and he'd be like, mommy, like look how strong I am because like I'm eating all my eggs and I'm going to be vegetarian. I would not get upset about it because I think the research shows that you can trigger muscle protein synthesis as long as you get more protein from plant sources and you combine them. So I think some of the best combinations are like pea and rice protein together. And you just have to note that you need a little bit more. So usually you need closer to like, if you're, if you're having whey protein, you would have 30 grams in a serving. And if you're having a plant-based version, I would try to get 35 to 40 grams in a serving. So I wouldn't try to dissuade him from the lifestyle that he's chosen because he probably has his reasons for it. And it's going to be very difficult to, you know, turn someone around from that kind of thinking. And I know from my own experience, no one could have like deterred me from the path that I had chosen. I had to do it on my own, but I wish I had had this knowledge because when I went vegetarian, I was just eating carbs and fat. Like I didn't understand, you know, how to properly prioritize protein and eat it. And I think my journey would have been very different if I had, I also didn't understand about like really important things like B12 and choline, you know, so I would have kept eggs in. So if there's anything you can convince them to do is to at least have eggs. Cause if not, you know, you can supplement with that, but it takes a little bit of privilege to be able to afford those kinds of supplements. So not everyone's in a position to do that. So, you know, eggs are very affordable and I don't think they hurt the chickens. Like we have a lot of friends who like, and I say this as a former vegan, but like we have so many friends who have like chickens in their backyard and they get fresh eggs from them. And the chickens are happy AF and like the chickens lay the eggs and they eat the most amazing fresh eggs. And like Pete's cousins here, we go out to their, you know, farm and get their eggs from them. The chickens are great. Like they're no one's like, they're all about it. The chickens are all about it. They are like, they're all super happy. You know, I'm sure there are situations like with industrial farming and stuff where the chickens are, you know, literally in like really tight cages and stuff.
Vanessa Spina
But if you get the right kind of eggs, you can support, you know, the farms that you want to, or even, you know, go to a local rancher or farmer and get eggs directly from them or farmer's markets. Like there's ways to do it where you don't have to, you know, be harming any animals.
Melanie Avalon
I'm really glad that you took that direction with the answer. Like, that was a really amazing, you know, like, like you're letting, you're, you're supporting the child doing what they want and also optimizing it to the best of within those circumstances. So awesome.
Vanessa Spina
Yeah, I definitely think that that's what I would do. And I don't think you should be worried because as long as they, you know, get that protein in, which you can do, and the research really shows it's optimal from, you know, animal sources, but you can get it in from plant-based sources too.
Melanie Avalon
Okay. You might have a similar answer then for this. So Stephanie, she has a few like rapid fire questions, but the first one is a little bit less than rapid fire. She says, Oh no, Vanessa, no, with one, two, three, four, five, six, six, oh, and she says, mom question, I know you only have boys so far. How can I help my 17 year old daughter with weight loss? Would you take a similar approach with, with that? Where are you? Yeah. What would you do with weight loss with kids?
Vanessa Spina
I actually, I did a post on this a couple of years ago and it was like what I wish I could go back and tell my teenage self, you know, because that's really when I struggled. You know, I was going through so many changes, you know, hormonally, and I didn't know how to nourish myself properly. And I definitely was like overeating on the energy macros and I wasn't prioritizing protein. I didn't understand how it could help me feel satiated. So, I was really on this like struggle bus where I just wasn't getting enough protein and so I craved energy calories constantly. And it ended up, I was a very active kid, even so, I wasn't able to keep up with it. So, if I could go back, you know, I would have definitely related the importance of protein for satiety and optimizing my protein intake. And, you know, if you do it with animal proteins, like even whey protein, whey protein isolates doesn't have any fat in it. So, it's a great way to get protein in without adding extra calories. But if I knew that and I had just optimized my protein intake, I would have experienced what I experienced now, which is effortless leanness. I don't have to work at being lean anymore because I optimized my protein intake and I have this self-regulating appetite. So, if I would have taught myself that, you know, to really focus on adding in and I think adding in protein is easier than getting someone to cut back on other things or focusing on taking away and that protein, bumping up the protein, it just displaces the energy macros, right, naturally. So, I would have done that and I would have focused on resistance training, you know, instead of just doing cardio because you build that metabolically active tissue and you're able to, I think, shift the way that you look at your body in terms of, like, women were often, you know, told to be as small as possible and that's really, like, the beauty ideal. And I've learned since then, you know, there's a lot of different ways to have a beautiful body and to me, a fit, healthy body with some muscle, I think, is a new beauty standard that women are starting to embrace and understand more. So, you know, that's something that I would have tried to convey to myself, you know, being younger and probably what I would do also if I had a daughter.
Melanie Avalon
I love that. I love the concept of, you know, focusing on what you can have and what nourishes you and supports you and builds a strong body rather than restricting per se or what you're cutting out. Okay, she has other rapid fire questions. I think they're sort of rapid. Why did you move to Europe initially?
Vanessa Spina
We actually decided to go to Prague for a year and just travel, just travel around. And we like did that and really, really enjoyed it. And we mostly were just traveling around Europe because as you know, once you're over in Europe, it's like really inexpensive to fly to Italy and to Spain and to France. And you can really explore and you can even hop on like the train and go all over. And so we did a ton of exploring and a ton of traveling. And all of a sudden, like COVID came along. And we had to kind of decide what to do. And I got pregnant. So it didn't make sense for us. Time to camp out. Yeah, it didn't make sense for us to like uproot everything, you know, during the pregnancy. And then once we had our first son, Luca, you know, we really realized like how child friendly and amazing the culture is in Europe is really like children are front and center and really, really embraced. And that's not to say they aren't in North America, but I would say it's a little bit more so here where like there's a playground on every corner. There's constant activities for children and for families. And it's like you can't walk 10 feet without bumping into a stroller. It's just so many people with children and families. So it's just a very, in terms of the culture, we find it's a great time to be here for us. And then I got pregnant again. So, you know, anyone who's had kids knows like it's hard to do any like big moves or changes also in that time. So that's kind of why we're still in Europe. And, you know, we're hoping at some point, you know, we'll figure out like our next, like our, our plan. But right now, just with like children, we love being over here, although we really do miss family and friends, but we're very fortunate that they come to visit a lot and we get to visit them too. So we'll see what happens in the coming years. But it's just been a really exciting adventure that kind of got extended with COVID. Yeah, we'll see what comes in the next years.
Melanie Avalon
Not the same situation, but kind of similar for me. I moved to Atlanta and I was just gonna come temporarily and it was right before COVID and then COVID happened. And I was like, oh, I'm just gonna camp out here for a little bit. Okay, her next rapid fire, number one way to get rid of aches and pains in an almost 60 year old.
Vanessa Spina
I would go for keto. I think keto has been proven scientifically to be one of the most anti-inflammatory diets and lifestyles. And I, one of the things I mentioned at the top of the episode is when I was eating more carbs, I was feeling achy. And it's not to say I had any kind of like full blown medical condition or anything like arthritis or anything like that. But I just felt achy and I didn't feel good in my body. I also felt really headache-y often. And I hadn't felt that way since when I was like pre-keto doing high carb, I felt that way all the time. Like I just felt like I always had a headache or I felt like aches in my body. And going on keto removed all of that for me. And I think it has to do with what a low inflammatory state it creates for people. And there's a lot of research on this. Like that it puts the ketogenic diet and the very low carb intake puts people in this very low inflammation state. So it could be something to research and look into and maybe talk to your doctor about.
Melanie Avalon
I would echo that. I would say looking at the dietary choices because it's really shocking. People's body could react with pain and inflammation to certain foods, and they might have no idea until they realize what those foods are. So looking at the food choices can be huge. I know you're talking about keto specifically, but I'm just saying like in general as well, like trying to pinpoint your trigger foods. Also, I would throw in Avalon X syrup peptase. It's amazing for all of that. Okay. Have you tried pickleball? And then she says, I will miss you. That is so, so cute.
Vanessa Spina
I haven't tried it yet but I love tennis and I love racquet sports so like I see people doing it all the time on different TV shows and I'm like I really want to try that it looks super fun. It hasn't taken off as much in Europe as it has in like the US and Australia and stuff so maybe it's coming but people are really big into tennis here so who knows it could be the next big thing and I will miss you too but you can catch me on the optimal protein podcast anytime or find me on social media and I'll be there.
Melanie Avalon
Perfect. Also related to Europe, sort of. Leslie says, I've always been curious, how many languages does Vanessa speak?
Vanessa Spina
Well, I wanna be really truthful because in terms of fluency, I would say English and French. I'm fluent in English and French. And I went to French school until I was in grade nine and it's like my family heritage as well. So my dad is French. So those I can speak fluently. And then Mandarin and Spanish I'm conversational in and I can read and write to a certain level. It's not fluent. I'm not saying I'm fluent.
Melanie Avalon
How do you say intermittent fasting in Mandarin, do you know?
Vanessa Spina
I've never looked that up. Now I want to. That's so funny. It's such a specific language that
Melanie Avalon
How about French? La faste interment.
Vanessa Spina
French? Oh man, there's got to be a term for it because they have all these like specific terms, high protein, they call hyper protein, like hyper protein.
Melanie Avalon
like epic. Wait, what is it? What's the phrase?
Vanessa Spina
It's hyper protein, so it's like hyper protein. Okay, okay, okay, yeah. I bet they have like a special term for it. I want to know now also. Okay, it's the same thing. It's to fast intermittent. Makes sense. That tracks. Yeah, that tracks. I thought maybe they would have like their own term. In Chinese, it's jian xie xin jin xie. Oh, yeah.
Melanie Avalon
So I'm impressed you could say it. That's really impressive. Did you read that from Chinese characters just now?
Vanessa Spina
No, I use the pinyin, which is like the... Oh, it gave you like the phonetic? Yeah, it's like the phonetic pinyin is the phonetic version or interpretation of the characters. Some of the characters I knew like xie and shu, but I didn't know jian, qing. So like I said, I'm not fluent in Chinese and I don't speak it regularly enough, but because I spent so many years living there, I did pick up a lot. And then when I went to university, that was my elective. So I took Mandarin, but I really miss it. Like sometimes I just go on Duolingo and like I do some Mandarin because I really, yeah, I miss speaking it. It's a beautiful language.
Melanie Avalon
Wow. That's impressive. That's impressive. I'm impressed. Okay.
Vanessa Spina
And I'm learning Czech, so that'll be my fifth.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, that's cool. That's cool, that's amazing. Anna wants to know, does Vanessa have plans to write another book on her high protein keto lifestyle she's been doing? Would love that.
Vanessa Spina
In the works, I am working on it.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, really? I didn't even know that.
Vanessa Spina
Oh my goodness. Yeah, I am working on it. I don't want anyone to I don't want to make any like announcements because it's it's challenging to get anything done these days The two babies but and the homeschooling which is like another reason why I'm just you know Continuing to do this was was not feasible and I as much as I'm like seriously sad about it And I'm really gonna miss this time, especially hanging out with you and all of our listeners But it is something that I do have planned and and I am working on so yeah, stay tuned It feels fitting that it should you know come out at some point
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, well, that'll be amazing. I will be there front row supporting. What about you? Oh, another book. I actually, actually, I did meet somebody recently and we might wanna do a book together. Forgot about that. So we shall see. There's just so many, like you were just saying, there's so many things that you have to prioritize. Okay, so two questions about red light for you. Leslie says, I have and love Vanessa's red light therapy mask. I would love to know what her protocol is with the mask, which mode and duration, et cetera. Thank you. And then Sarah says, I would also love to know a protocol for red light panel, not the mask. There are multiple ways to use it, but I'm unsure where to start. And I said not the mask negatively. The mask is great. So what are your protocols for both of these things?
Vanessa Spina
I actually wear the mask myself every week. It's the only way that I can really be consistent with my red light therapy because otherwise, I just don't have the time to sit in front of a panel. And one of the ways that you get results from red light therapy, it usually takes eight to 12 weeks to start seeing results, but you have to be consistent. And that means at least like four to five sessions a week. So for me, the mask is invaluable because I just strap it on and I can be hands-free so I can do other things. Like I can't operate heavy machinery, but I can like sit on the couch with my kids and watch them and also interact with them as opposed to sitting in front of a panel, like anyone who's done that knows you can't really like do much and you can't really see much. And you definitely can't be like on the couch or anything like that. So it's very helpful for me. I also just started wearing the neck piece, which is something that I'm working on adding to my collection. So I've had so many requests for people who want the neck, the neck piece. Yeah, so it's like you've got the face and then there's a neck and chest attachment. So it straps behind your neck. It's doing the front?
Melanie Avalon
of your neck? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And your chest. Would that do your thyroid then? Maybe. Yeah, it could. That's the reason I first started doing red light was either for hair growth or thyroid or maybe both at the same time. So I used to shine it on my thyroid.
Vanessa Spina
Okay, I made a reel. I'm going to send it to you right now. I made a reel last week with me trying to get my red light therapy done with Damien and Luca crawling on me. And I'm wearing the neck piece so you can see what it looks like. But I've just started using it because I'm like, while I'm doing this, why don't I also do the neck? You know, because it's it's also I mean, even really think about I did it more just for like, keeping the skin, you know, collagen rich and elastin rich. But yeah, so I wear the mask a lot. I use it way more than I do the panels. Now, if I didn't have kids, or I didn't have little kids, I probably be sitting in front of the panels because the panels are more powerful in terms of the power irradiance. But the mask helps me actually get it done. And to me, that's better than nothing, right? So helps me to be consistent. So the crystal mask that you have, and thank you for purchasing it, has six different modes. And the one that I usually use is mode six, because it's red and near infrared. So it's got 630 nanometers and 850 nanometers. And the other modes, like mode five and four, they basically just cycle through like mode five is like orange and a near infrared mode four is like combined, the red and near infrared. So I usually do mode six. And I usually do it for about 20 minutes. And that's like 20 minutes a day. And for anyone who doesn't have the mask or doesn't have a red light therapy mask, and is using a panel, I usually have found that most people in the research, most people start seeing results when they do about 20 minutes a day. Depending on the body part, there's different dosing. So you want to actually refer to your red light therapy panels manuals, like in my manuals, I've put the exact dosing in terms of minutes for each different like thing that you're trying to accomplish. So like the distance from the panel and the amount of time and it's all specific to the irradiance of power radiance of my panels. So that's why you have to be specific with the panels that you're using, because if they have less power radiance, you may need to be closer, or do it for longer, or if they have more power radiance, which I doubt because mine have some of the highest power radiance on the market. But if that sounds like I'm bragging about it, I didn't mean it to sound that way. But they truly do have quite a lot of power radiance.
Melanie Avalon
I'm supporting, I'm, I'm, I'm, what's the word, confirming this information? It's just facts.
Vanessa Spina
Yeah, like your panel should feel like a day at the beach when you're in front of it, if it's really effective. And that's like a little takeaway. And you need to know the specifics for your panel because you want to avoid overdoing it because there's also, you know, this sort of bell curve, right, like where you can get, you don't get results if you do too little. And you also don't get results if you do too much, because there's something called the biphasic dose response. So you want to hit at that sweet spot and you need to know it for the specific panel that you're using. So if it's not in your manual, you can probably correspond with the company that sold you the panels. But I have specifically in my manuals every like the exact time, the distance, because red light really is a vitamin. So you want to think of it as dosing, you know, what dose do you need for each specific thing? And yeah, there's a lot of research and different guides available online as well that you know, people can find if they they just want to know how much you do. But usually you don't want to do more than 20 minutes per day. So like if you're trying to target different different areas of your body, you're always going to get systemic benefits no matter where you do it on your body. But if you want to target different parts of your body, then you know, you want to switch it up. So like if you're doing your thighs on Monday, for 10 minutes and your face and neck, you know, then Tuesday, you could do like your abdomen and you could do like your arms or something like that. If you're using it for like muscle recovery, muscle building, because it's really good for recovery and repair, you know, post resistant training, it's good for conditioning your body before exercise. If you have like stubborn body fat areas, I mean, there's so many different things that you can use it for. So you really want to know like the specifics with your panel, but that's what I do with that with the the tonelux crystal mask.
Melanie Avalon
Just a really quick clarification question. You said you don't get the benefits if it's too low of a dosing, also if it's too much. Is it that you don't get any benefits if it's too much or that you stop getting more benefits? Yeah, you stop.
Vanessa Spina
don't get any. You undo the benefits? Yeah, which is really what's so tricky about it. And it's also really interesting because there's this amazing Danish study where they were using this red light therapy on women who had been treatment resistant to becoming pregnant. And they use this amazing red light therapy panel that was like blasting their abdomen with like 20,000 joules of light, like just a red light, just so much. So much that my immediate thought was like, how did they not trigger the biphasic dose response? Because this was so much. And yet, like 50% of the women in the study managed to get pregnant and carry their pregnancy to term. So it was really amazing. And Denmark is one of the countries with Japan that's been investing a lot in red light therapy research because they have like really low fertility rates. So this research really astonished me. And I had a red light therapy expert who's also like a quantum physics expert, quantum biology expert. And I said, how did they not trigger the biphasic dose response? And she says, she believes that people are so red light deficient, that it's actually pretty hard to overdo it. And that she believes in that specific scenario that those people maybe in that study were just so deficient that the 20,000 joules was not too much for them. So joules is the unit of light when you're measuring the doses, which is what I was talking about earlier, like with the manuals or understanding your panels, it should be broken down by joules, you know, how many joules you're getting, which is a measure of like the surface area and the power radiance of the device and the proximity to it. But yeah, a lot of research says that if you get too much, you get no results as well. But I think it's an area that we probably need more research in because we don't fully know what that is yet. But there's research out there which does show like what a good target is.
Melanie Avalon
wow okay that's really shocking to me but really helpful and by the way i saw your video it's so cute with your kids oh my goodness it's so interesting that they're not scared of you you know like i don't know i mean you look no you don't you don't look scary i mean i would be a little bit scared if i was a child
Vanessa Spina
I know. And it's funny because like Pete, the first time he walked in, I had the mask on. He was like, you get scared. No, he's like, you look kind of cute. Like it's kind of a cute mask. And I was like, I was joking about how like a lot of the masks, the red light, every mask are creepy looking like Jason, you know, Halloween.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's not it's not super creepy. I want to clarify I'm just saying like you don't look like a human You know so and I was always scared of robots when I was little so yeah
Vanessa Spina
Mine, I think, is kind of cute looking. I'm just gonna say. I've tested a lot of masks and some of them are like, they look like really creepy. So I think mine is okay. But yeah, I thought Damien, because he's 11 months old, I thought he might be taken aback but he just like smiled at me. He's all about it. Yeah, he was just like, he was lifting it up and he loves to play with the room.
Melanie Avalon
No wait, Lucas, Lucas is the one that's like really playing and laughing, right?
Vanessa Spina
That's Damien. He's 11 months and Luca is three.
Melanie Avalon
Wait, sorry, I'm getting oh my gosh. Sorry. I'm having a brain fart moment
Vanessa Spina
No, I know you know who Luca is.
Melanie Avalon
I know. Yeah, I do. Oh my goodness.
Vanessa Spina
we're here. Yeah, maybe neither of them were, were scared. The first time I put it on Luca was like, what's that? But he wasn't, he wasn't scared of it. But maybe if it looked more creepy, like they would be so it's
Melanie Avalon
So cute. Oh my goodness. But you see the neck attachment, right? I do. Yes. I do. Yes. I got distracted by your cute children. Okay. One last question for you. And then a closing thought. Janelle says, what are Vanessa's Christmas plans last Christmas? Wait, it was last Christmas. You were in the hospital.
Vanessa Spina
Yes, we were just talking about that at dinner. We were saying because Damien's almost a year he's going to turn a year, you know, right before Christmas.
Melanie Avalon
When's his birthday again?
Vanessa Spina
like right before Christmas, December 19th. So we spent, and we were talking with my parents this weekend and they were like, do you remember last Christmas, we brought Christmas dinner to the hospital and we had Christmas dinner in your hospital room because we ended up staying at the hospital for two weeks because Damien had some complications. He's doing incredible now. So, you know, all of that ended up, you know, not having any long-term effects, thankfully, but we did spend Christmas in the hospital recovering. We were there for two weeks. And so my mom made Christmas dinner and brought it with my dad. It was the cutest thing ever. Like they had all these bags and like oven mitts, you know, and they drove it all to the hospital with Luca. And, you know, we had like a little square table in our hospital room and we had like a pretty nice hospital room, so we had a really cozy Christmas. And the hospital was filled with Christmas trees and Christmas lights. So it was, you know, a difficult time, but also one of the best times of our lives. So it was really nice reminiscing on that. I can't believe it's been a year ago, but we're planning on spending Christmas at home with our family. So that's going to be really exciting because it's been a while since we've been home. So we're flying back to the US and we'll be there for a little bit. And yeah, I'm really excited to be with everybody with all of like Luca and Damien's cousins and yeah, just to enjoy some really quality Christmas time. And I'm also ready for some time off. What about you?
Melanie Avalon
where are you going to be actually and this airs this is perfect because this airs December 23rd so a few days before Christmas I will be on this day Merry Christmas I know Merry Christmas I will be my family actually convinced me to fly to Sanibel Island in Florida oh my gosh I know for how long I'm gonna fly there on the 23rd and then be there the 24th 25th and then fly back the 26th that's really exciting are you excited I'm working on the travel skills um yes traveling is not my favorite thing and also I wanted to be cold at Christmas and like the beach seems like a different vibe but you know what I'll be there Elsa eternal winter I know and I need my snow no I am I am really I'm really excited about that so we will both be traveling for Christmas ah okay well one more one more comment from Alice she says Vanessa will be greatly missed but she is so busy with her family and her other podcast is there a new partner in the works and so I was trying to decide if I should announce I think I think we'll just make it a surprise because oh that's fun yeah I think I think that's what I was trying to think of that's what we did when Cynthia started and when you started and I think so do you remember if we announced you before hmm or was it like surprise like on the first day
Vanessa Spina
I think you did because I think I remember you like talking about me with Cynthia and Cynthia was like saying things, nice things.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's correct. I think I'm gonna make it a surprise this year. So we have a few episodes, like special episodes coming up after this with some special guests and then new co-hosts will be here. So yeah, I'm excited for you guys. Me too. I'm really excited. Definitely a new chapter. It's gonna be a new, kind of like we were talking about each co-host bringing their own, you know, special thing to the show. I think it's going to be a completely new spin on things. Still, still very much intermittent fasting, just a completely new perspective, completely new.
Vanessa Spina
Yeah, it's like you're going back to the roots of the podcast, but also going to completely new territory.
Melanie Avalon
that's a good analogy or whatever that would be in words yes but in any case this was okay this is so amazing I'm so glad we did this episode yeah as a fun fact for listeners so because we we made the decision about Vanessa leaving and we'd already recorded all of our episodes and then Vanessa's like we should do a goodbye episode so I'm really glad we did this it felt so cathartic and you know I'm like really glad that we did this and I just appreciate you so so much I adore you I love you podcast bestie forever we'll have to bring you back for a reunion or a special episode in the future
Vanessa Spina
I would love that. This was the most beautiful goodbye episode that I could ever ask for. I feel like it just tied a pretty bow on all of it. And again, I was, I had been so honored to be your co-host. It was an incredible experience. And I learned so much from you. I just, it's, it's something I will always cherish. And I also cherish our friendship and I love you as well. And I love our listeners. And I'm so thankful that I got to be a part of your lives. You can always find me anytime on the Optimal Protein podcast. I am really excited to continue my work there. If you ever want to come over and, you know, listen to me talk about protein and optimizing that. But I'm so honored that I was able to be here. So thank you so much for, you know, inviting me to, to join you. And I'm so, so, so excited for you and for listeners of the podcast for this new co-host. I think listeners are going to be absolutely thrilled. So it's really exciting.
Melanie Avalon
I could not agree anymore. And I also learned so, so much from you. It was an amazing, incredible, beautiful chapter, which I will reflect fondly on until the day I die. Not to be dramatic, but yeah, this was amazing. So Merry Christmas to you and happy holidays.
Vanessa Spina
Merry Christmas. Yes. Happy holidays to all the listeners. I hope everyone has a wonderful break and yeah, it gets, I'm sure everyone's going to be ready and excited to go with intermittent fasting starting in the new year or so.
Melanie Avalon
That's like the time that's like the time to really jump in when people are feeling it with the motivation for sure.
Vanessa Spina
Yes. And there's nothing like intermittent fasting for a good reset. I can speak from recent experience.
Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Well, I will talk to you later.
Vanessa Spina
you in the future. Okay, sounds good. Thank you so much listeners. Bye for now.
Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Interimism Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!