Welcome to Episode 421 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.
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TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 421 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.
I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, Intermittent Fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 421 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with a very special listener guest today. We've been doing some episodes in this listener guest series, and it is just so, fun because for so long, for years and years and years, I've been doing this show and putting out content for everybody. And now I feel like it's time to actually talk with you guys and get your stories and hear your thoughts and your fasting experience. So I am just loving doing this. And today's guest has such an incredible story. I'm here with Pamela Wakeman. She is from Arizona, and she has a really incredible story about her fasting journey, and in particular, how it really helped her with navigating menopause and a lot of the symptoms that go with that. And she has so many experiences. So I have so many questions for her. And, and actually, to start it off, Pamela, when I was reading your story that you sent in, I thought it was so funny. So basically, you first found intermittent fasting because you thought Dr. Minnie Peltz's book fast like a girl was about running. What happened there?
Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, well, because yes, definitely I have been running long distance events for, you know, like a decade and I'm always looking for women focused sort of coaching. And I want to say there's even a blog that I was following before I moved to Colorado before I moved to Arizona. So maybe it was like 15 years ago now.
But I thought it was called Fast Like a Girl. And that's how I like Google that. And I came up with Mindy Pels book. But it wasn't until I actually heard her on Mel Robbins podcast that I understood like what she was really about.
Melanie Avalon
Wow, I love that. Did you listen to my interview? I interviewed her on my other show, or was it this show, my other show, I think.
Pamela Wakeman
It was, I think it was a show. Let me Google really quick. She's definitely going to be a fasting lady.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so I actually I had her on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. Okay. Yeah. And yeah, she was really, really great.
The work that she does is so profound and like we were talking about the beginning, she really understands adopting fasting for, for women's hormones and things like that. The beginning of your fasting journey. So you were exposed to her content. Did you, how did you feel? Were you skeptical? Were you excited? Did you immediately jump in? How did you start?
Pamela Wakeman
I had a boss, the manager at work mentioned to me about his fasting experience and it sounded kind of out there at the time. And I thought, good for him, those are pretty lofty goals.
As a couple of years had gone by, I started to have issues from everything from joint pain to hip issues to carpal tunnel syndrome, tennis elbow. I mean, it was all like one thing after the other after the other. And I was not the type of person who had these issues in the past. I had running injuries, but these were all unrelated and coming out of nowhere. And so I started to seek out ways that I could sort of help myself. And so when I heard Mindy talking about healing yourself through fasting, it put a whole different lens on fasting for me. It wasn't about weight loss, which I definitely had through menopause, I was gaining weight faster than I ever had, which was also surprising and a little scary. But the fasting in terms of inducing autophagy, this was incredibly interesting to me. And I thought, I need to try this right away because I was just about to have another hip surgery.
And I was thinking to myself, maybe I could have avoided this had I already had delved into fasting and multi-day fasting to be able to regenerate cells and restore my metabolism or reset as Minnie Pels likes to say. So yeah, I jumped in. Short answer, I jumped right in and started and built my way up to a 16-8 fast. And then I had been following her for about three months. And then she hosted a 72-hour fast at the beginning of the year, January. And I thought, oh boy, is this even safe? Like I started to question how I was even going to make it through. Because there's all these preconceived ideas of what going without food means in our society. I'm raising, she's 19 years old now, but at the time, my daughter was having issues navigating our diet culture and looking a certain way and feeling a certain way in your clothes.
And every time some of those thoughts that I had grown up with would come out of my mouth, and she would just look at me like, what is wrong with you? You can't say these things anymore. Like you can't go without food for a certain amount of time. And I'm like, but wait, this is under a different lens now. We're not talking about going without food because we are trying to lose weight and we just want to tough it through and get to the next day. And then just go and eat the same diet or eat the same kinds of foods that you were eating before. This is about you are emotionally and mentally aware of what you're doing. You're not doing it to punish yourself. You're doing it to unlock the power of your body to be able to heal itself. And sure, drop some fat or burn some fat, which is like a whole different viewpoint from losing weight. Losing water weight and losing muscle comes from dieting in an unhealthy way or in a way that's dysfunctional.
Pamela Wakeman
My daughter was in our society pushes forth, but this ability to sort of trigger ketosis and use those ketones to burn body fat. I mean, this was just so intriguing to me.
And trying to share it to my daughter as it was like, they were even skeptical because they were like, this doesn't sound healthy. This sounds scary. You shouldn't do this. So I really had to dive in and understand the science behind it before I could go back and talk to them about it more fully.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, so many things there. Did your daughters come around to your perspective or how did that end up?
Pamela Wakeman
You know, my youngest is still of the mindset where she feels like she's young and she can, you know, wants to eat whatever she wants because she's young and doesn't want to deprive herself. And so, like, I feel like we've kind of met in the middle where she feels, you know, like she still wants to eat certain foods, but, like, she understands what those foods now can do to her metabolism. And so, she's making a conscious choice not because she feels entitled, because, you know, she's young and her body will burn, you know, calories or have a faster metabolism, but more because she just wants to be able to experiment with different types of foods.
And as long as she's aware of what's, you know, when she can control, you know, the types of foods that she's eating, like, for instance, you know, she does want to cut out sugar now because she understands, you know, what it can do to your skin. You know, having multiple reasons beyond just losing weight to look good is really more of an intrinsic motivator than just, you know, I want to look good in my clothes. My other daughter is more, she's cutting out alcohol, so she's looking at it from a different perspective where she's just like, I'm done, you know, going out with my friends and getting drunk on the weekends and partying. I'm really going to be more actively taking responsibility for my health from a health perspective, from a I want to be cleaner. I want to eat healthier whole foods and, you know, make sure that I'm not getting any toxins, you know, in my body. So, both of them coming from different perspectives and both of them very, very important for the whole, this whole process of fasting, because there's so many different pathways to detox, to be able to allow our bodies to be able to fast, you know, most efficiently. So, I feel like I'm having impact, but it's just different for different, maybe different age ranges, probably.
Melanie Avalon
It's so interesting. And I don't think I'll ever have kids.
One of the reasons I don't want to is I don't want to deal with the issue or the challenge of raising them the way I would want them to live with health choices and things like that, but also supporting, you know, personal freedom and agency. And literally, I just, it's just too much for me to deal with. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot.
Pamela Wakeman
No, it's totally a lot. I was running under my, I could hear my parents' voices in my head as I was hunting my kids.
And then it wasn't until, I mean, I went through a divorce and I started to become my own person. I was going through menopause. I was really understanding who I was for the first time. And from that lens, I could actually parent my kids in a more effective way, I think.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I love that. It's ironic because I feel, especially on my other show, I feel like I read so many books that touch on all this, so I'm learning a lot, but I don't think I'll ever actually practically implement it.
And something I think about a lot actually is, so this is not fasting, and I'm not endorsing fasting for kids. It's, you know, 18 or older, but food choices, like the healthy food choices you make, I also feel conflicted about that because on the one hand, I wish, like I wish I had been raised eating like non-processed foods and whole foods and healthy foods, but I ate, you know, all the junk. And it's like I have all these really great memories involving like junk food. So it's this weird dichotomy of like having fondness surrounding these foods that I no longer eat, wondering what it would have been like if I'd never eaten them. It's just really intriguing. It's interesting to think about.
Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, like the other day, I mean, like when I was growing up, my dad would be like, don't eat all that cool whip, you know, because it's bad for you, it's full of sugar. But like now I see on like ketogenic, like blogs or whatever, they'll have recipes with like, not you know, sugar free cool whip, like make these great desserts. And like you can eat the whole tub. It's like, Oh, awesome.
Like, you know, it's, it's again, a whole different point of view. Like you want the fat in your diet now you want to be able to, you know, feel satiated, and we do need fat in our diet to do that. So that does, you know, bring up like the conjure up like the old junk foods of yesteryear.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, and speaking of the food, and your personal diet, the foods that you've eaten historically and then when you started fasting, how did that change for you personally?
Pamela Wakeman
When I first heard Mindy talking, she would say, talk about this story about this man that she was training or she was coaching and how he would eat the same foods, but just in a smaller eating window. And so to me, I guess I wanted to start that way so I wouldn't feel like I was really dieting or making a huge life change all at once. So I didn't change much of my diet. I just compressed my eating window.
And then as I started to maybe drop a few, I started to gain momentum and think, oh, well, it's working. What else can I do to make it even more effective? And so I started to learn about detoxing my body from I started to eat more meat, but I realized that the kind of meat I was eating had to be a little bit cleaner, couldn't just go out and eat any ribeye. It really should be a grass-fed, grass-finished ribeye if I'm going to be able to eat the whole thing and have the fat be of benefit to my body versus pulling in all the chemicals from the pesticides that the cattle eat. So that started to just build on itself. So I stopped eating grains because grains, again, are one of those foods that are sprayed with toxic chemicals.
And I started to replace these foods with other foods that had more protein because having already been clued into the fact that women in menopause have to have even more protein in their diet from reading the book Roar, which is about women who are active, very active, and want to keep staying active even through menopause. There are protein needs that you have to, you really have to maintain. So just finding foods that have more protein and finding ways to just sneak in protein wherever I could, but still fast. So that was kind of tricky, trying to get in enough protein and still stay in a fasting state or a fasted state.
But then I went all into what am I cooking with and how am I cooking these foods? I'm cooking with pots and pans that have Teflon all over them and I'm storing them in plastic containers and I'm using aluminum foil to cook on when I barbecue. It's things like that. It's like, oh, wait a minute. These things are impacting how the nutrition of the food is actually being absorbed in my body or not being absorbed for that matter. So I had to make big changes in the kitchen to get rid of the plastics and the toxic kitchen cookware.
And then beyond that, then it led into, and I know you're familiar with this, the cosmetics, cleaner cosmetics, because I'm living in Tucson where it's really dry. So I'm using all creams, moisturizers where I'm using a lot of it. So is it clean or is it full of different kinds of chemicals that impact my hormonal system? So yeah, everything is impacting the way my body reacts to the foods ultimately that I'm eating, because if the foods aren't able to find a way into my cells because they're blocked by toxins, then I'm not doing the best that I can do for my body.
But this took a while. It took a good year to figure out. Had I known all this at the very beginning, it probably would have been too overwhelming, and I might have stalled out and not continued on with it.
Pamela Wakeman
So I'm glad that I had the chance to just ease my way into it and learn about all this slowly and through different people. Mindy Pels was one person, and ultimately I did actually get a certification with her to be a coach for Fast Like a Girl so that I can help other women enter into that lifestyle.
But also, it's good to have lots of different teachers and really vary the different teachings and understand things from different perspectives, because there's so much out there and a lot of it is conflicting, and to weed through it is tricky. So you have to view it from the lens of your life and what's reasonable for you, or else you can get overwhelmed pretty quickly.
Melanie Avalon
You are touching on something that I think so many people experience, and this happened to my friend really recently, which is that when you start this health journey, you said something about how it's a good thing that you weren't exposed to all this information right at the beginning because you would have been overwhelmed. And I think that happens so often with people.
If they want to make change, they can almost feel stuck. If they realize all the things they need to change compared to it being an evolving journey where at least for me personally, what I experienced and what I think a lot of people experience and I'm hearing with you is that when you find it's kind of like the gateway drug, but like the thing that works like fasting for you and you feel the difference and you feel the benefits, then you get excited about everything that you get to learn. And then you can slowly tackle all the things. At least for me, it was like, oh, okay, now what can I do next? And so I really think people can switch that mindset from a potential fear-based mindset of all the things they have to do to one of empowerment of all the things they get to do on their own timeline, on their own pace, or at their own face. Was that sort of your experience? Yes.
Pamela Wakeman
In fact, more recently, you know, when I was listening to your podcast, Vanessa was talking about autophagy and she was citing a study where, and I hope I get this right and do her justice, but she had said that there is the same amount of autophagy or to trigger the same amount of autophagy from a 72-hour fast, you can get the same amount or same effect from doing a 30-minute strength or resistance training workout, which is like to me, like that says, okay, so now after I've been on this fasting journey, I'm learning something new that maybe I don't want to do like, maybe my, I can do like a 72-hour fast a couple of times a year, but maybe I don't want to do them off more often than that. And in, you know, to replace that or in addition to that, I can do some, you know, I can really get more resistance training in and kind of extend the amount of time that I was doing it to get the same effect.
That to me kind of blows my mind because, you know, now I have two different tools at my disposal that I can use to get the kind of healing that I'm looking for. And yeah, I think that the more you kind of dive into this world, the more tools you find and the more varied they are, I think that's important because your body needs to, from what I understand, your body really needs to switch it up and to be, you know, confused a little bit so that it has to adapt and learn something new. And then that adaptation kind of makes those changes in your body. And that's where you start to see, you know, the physical changes too.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, Vanessa, she's amazing at finding all of these incredible studies, especially around things like protein and autophagy and training. And yeah, I vaguely remember her talking about that one. Something else you touched on that I love is the exposing yourself to different ideas. I think this is so important, like always having an open mind and, you know, engaging with all different ideas and perspectives.
And it's interesting. So one I got reminded of when you were talking was, and we haven't aired this yet at the time of us personally recording, but by the time this episode comes out, it will have aired. So episode 415, I interviewed Dr. Matthew Letterman, who's well known for the Forks Over Knives documentary and some books surrounding that. He co-wrote the Whole Foods diet with John Mackey, who is the former CEO and founder, co-founder of Whole Foods. And he has a company called We Be Calm, but he's really amazing and he's very much in the vegan sphere. He brought up actually the concept of toxins and animal fat. And I was saying, well, we could eat, you know, grass fed, grass finished and things like that. And then he was saying, well, no, actually there's not much difference between the toxins and grass fed, grass finished versus conventional because of how saturated these persistent organic pollutants are. And I was like, Oh, well, that's interesting. So maybe, maybe we should, well, A, I need to look into that more and B, maybe that means we should actually leaner meat, you know, regardless. And so then for episode 414, which I realized comes before that, but we recorded it out of order. You'll have to listen to that episode because we, I went down the rabbit hole trying to find the studies on this. It wasn't very promising, basically, basically there, there does seem to be on the one hand, there does seem to be similar compounds in animal fat, even if it's grass finished organic. I do think it's slightly less, but either way it sounds like going leaner with the meat in particular can actually reduce your exposure to those compounds. But then it's ironic because then there's things like fish where the main, you know, problem with fish is mercury. And that's actually preferentially stored in protein, not in fat. So going leaner with fish doesn't really address the mercury problem. It's so, and the reason I bring this up is because like you were saying, there's so much information out there and so many different conflicting perspectives that, well, A, to tie into the earlier theme, it could be overwhelming or B, it could be empowering because it means, you know, we're always learning and we're always finding what works for us personally. Yeah. So I'm not trying to scare people away from eating, you know, fatty, grass fed, grass finished meat. I personally still think it's really healthy. So I differ a little bit, but it was a really interesting conversation. You'll have to listen and let me know what you think.
Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, because I mean, one of the cool things about Mindy Pels was that she took it beyond just the fast like a girl, and she just recently released a book called Eat Like a Girl, and it really is composed of a lot of vegan or vegetarian recipes, which I wasn't expecting. I was expecting, I guess, because of the focus on protein, I was expecting more meat-based meals.
So when I started to make these foods, I was like, well, this is way out of my comfort zone, number one, because I wasn't, I'm not a vegetarian. But number two, it exposed me to the possibilities of eating more vegetarian meals, because I don't, like I wasn't, I'm just not familiar with like, eating things like tofu and tempeh, and just understanding how to prepare these foods so that they're not like going to attack your, you know, metabolism, like, you know, the different toxins that come from eating plants, like that I wasn't even aware of before I learned about this, you know, the things that kind of create different blockages in your body, like spinach and kale, I guess I used to think, okay, the more the better and now I'm like, okay, but not if it's not cooked, oxalates, yeah, oxalates, don't cook it too much, you know, cook it enough where you're breaking down the oxalates so that you know, you can eat some of these foods for the nutritional value. So it's, it's, again, it's tricky understanding just based navigating the foods that you eat, and which ones are safest to eat, and which ones you really have to understand how to prepare them or pair them with other foods in order for them to be, you know, the safest way to eat them. So yeah, I've gone from like, learning about fasting to now I'm getting into, you know, the nutrition side of things and the strength training side of things. So it's, it's just evolving, which is why I guess I consider myself like, recreational bio hacker, because I'm trying these different things without, you know, too much like concern about like, the effects, like, I just want to see what will happen and then, you know, kind of pivot from there.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I love that approach. That is something I remember from interviewing and reading her book, Dr.
Peltz is she's, she's on the lower protein side of things, which I personally, I mean, I feel like it's obvious if people listen to this show, we, I just think a focus on protein is so, so important. I just think it's the most nourishing thing for our body, especially when it's paired with fasting, because, you know, you have the, the fasting period to reduce MTOR and IGF-1, these signaling pathways for growth and stimulate, like you were mentioning, autophagy and stimulate all these repair systems in the body. And then when you eat, that's when you're doing the actual repair and you need that protein for, for not only for growth of muscle and support muscle mass, which is so key for health and longevity and metabolic health, but also for just hunger. Like, you know, a lot of people struggle with hunger and there's, you know, this protein leverage hypothesis that we will feel hungry until we meet our protein needs. So yeah, protein is definitely one where there's all different opinions. How much protein do you try to get daily?
Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I mean, I don't really track. I mean, I kind of like look at the foods that I have and I know kind of in my head, like how much a serving has. And so I kind of, I don't kind of, I do have, I have an issue with hunger. So I really do actually take in probably more than maybe somebody else who like my husband, for instance, he's like, he, I mean, again, he's men and women fast differently and metabolize differently. So I don't mean to compare the two, but I definitely see a difference in our hunger levels.
And so I definitely need to eat additional protein to get, you know, to feel satiated. And, you know, I was doing butter in my coffee for a while. And, and I think for a while, like it worked, but then I found that, you know, it was probably an added calorie intake that maybe I didn't need. And that I, if I, you know, fat, maybe with more fat with my first meal around lunchtime that I was, you know, that was okay. That was a different sort of sort of composition of a meal versus having the fat early in the day. Cause I did want to have benefit from the, the, the fasted workout. I like the fasted workout. I it's, I don't work out for very long cause I don't have a lot of time, but I, you know, from, from what I'm learning, you don't really have to work out for very long if you're, if you're doing, you know, targeted exercise. So I feel like a fasted workout feels really good, you know, for my body. So yeah, no more butter in my coffee, but I'm still doing the MCT oil in my coffee. I love that. I love the creaminess of it. It just gives it a different taste and texture. It feels a little bit more like a kind of a meal. Yeah. I mean, like, I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything, but then I definitely like scoops of cottage cheese or grass fed, you know, Greek yogurt later on with, I guess in the evening, I'll have that with berries to, you know, kind of calm down for the evening and feel full. And so that I can have a good night's sleep too. That helps.
Melanie Avalon
well. Cottage cheese and berries are two of my favorite things. That's amazing. I love that.
Well, actually, okay, where do I want to go from here? So, well, I wanted to touch on something that you, so you mentioned earlier about your daughter trying the not drinking thing. I feel like the whole sober curious movement is very popular right now. In your intake form, you're talking about, what were you saying about, about alcohol?
Pamela Wakeman
haul that I guess about six months into my fasting I started hearing about dry farm wines and I was like oh I'm all over that you know because now I can drink wine and not feel guilty about it or whatever you know the sugar you know was it was not the added sugar that you would get from just a wine off the shelf and I never really paid much attention I would just get whatever wine was you know affordable at my local you know a wine shop or whatever but then I started doing the dry farm wines and I really enjoyed it but I realized that for me personally it was too much that I needed to just in general I needed to cut back on any alcohol not all but definitely during the week and like really be mindful of what I was taking and like you know going to restaurants and all their beautiful cocktail menus it was like you know okay you know there were like treats and you know instead of a dessert I would have a cocktail I'm like what am I doing like this is this is this is too much it just feels like too much and it feels like I'm standing still like I'm not I'm making all these progress forward with with fasting and with you know healing my body and then I'm going and you know drinking these drinks that I don't really need but I'm doing it because it looks fun and you know I want to relax on the weekends and so I just had to find different ways like different alternative drinks like kava drinks and adaptogenic drinks to kind of replace you know because I still had that habit of like maybe going for a cocktail in the evening but just replace it with something a little bit less less alcohol because the so many calories and alcohol I was just I felt like I was just like I wasn't progressing forward so it for me it was really a blocker that I had to address and I hear people talk about like oh we should only have a glass of wine at night it's like a glass like who has a glass of wine I always have like at least two glasses of wine like and that is like you know if it's like 200 calories of glass then like that's my whole workout today and like I'm not working out so that I can burn calories so I can have more wine like this is not what this is supposed to be this is about moving forward and getting you know for longevity sake now you know this is about feeling better not just standing still so I I guess I fought it for a long time Melanie I wanted to keep my wine and keep my tonics and I had to finally admit that this is what was holding me back so I just think that you know the women that I coach I I'm going to be part of it like oh you should probably cut out you know cut down on your alcohol no you should really cut down on your alcohol but you know of all the drinks that I love the most you know I do love the dry farm wine
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I obviously love this topic. And I think it's so individual. And people really have to know themselves and find what works for them.
And the dry farm wines piece is, if you are drinking, it's such a key, it's such a key difference. Because if I were to drink because I do drink wine every night. And if I, if I were to drink conventional wine, I would just feel horrible. And I can't believe I was like, I was in a phase like in college. And after when I was just drinking like cheap wine all the time. And I literally could not do that. Now I would feel so unwell the next day.
So I have to stick to my, my dry farm wines. I actually even went, it's funny yesterday, I went to total wine and more I was like, I'm going to see if I can find wines that seem to meet dry farm wines criteria, which is organic, low alcohol, 12.5% or less free of added sugar free of added sulfites. I wouldn't be able to know if it was tested for mold and toxins and all that stuff. I literally stood in the aisle, I was probably there for like, and I knew where to go. I was like, I'm gonna go to the French section, I'm gonna look at the Loire Valley, I'm gonna find like a low alcohol gamay. That's organic. Like I got this. I was there for like 45 minutes and couldn't find anything. So yeah, there's definitely something special to dry farm wines if you are drinking. The thing I was thinking from your format you're filling out was you were saying, because I'm glad you put this in here, because I have heard people say this, which is that drinking alcohol will hijack the liver for detox for the next 22, 72 hours. So the body will not use the fasting window to burn fat.
So I don't know where that idea started. I think maybe that's the case for some people. I can say definitively, at least from my experience that at the very least, it's not always true. And the reason I know that is because I have had a glass of wine every night with the exception of I did try not drinking for a year to see if I felt any better. I did not. So I was like, well, we tried that. I know that I've pretty much had a glass of wine every night for like a decade, minus that one year. And during that decade, I have definitely gained and lost weight. So that negates that idea always being true, if that makes sense. Like basically, I know I've lost weight. I know I burn fat while having wine in the evenings.
Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, and it feels like you should, right? Because it's like not a sugar alcohol.
I mean, it's a sugar alcohol, but it's not the added sugar, right? Like so you, it really is just the alcohol the liver is burning down or breaking down.
Melanie Avalon
which it would burn first, too.
Pamela Wakeman
Yeah and if your body's used to like the same amount like every night I feel like your body adapts so it's probably breaking it down quicker that's my opinion because I guess on days where you drink more and where you know where you've had more than you normally would then maybe that would would be the case you need extra time to recover or your your liver would have more time that it needed to recover but then you could also take some charcoal activated charcoal and that could help you know speed things along too which I totally believe in now since I've been using that you know when I eat things like lots of carbs that I didn't mean to eat but you know they were the only thing that was available or something like that.
Melanie Avalon
I think we might have talked about that on the show, that idea before. It's really interesting.
I mean, it does make me think, cause I recently interviewed, I haven't aired it yet, but Dr. Kate Shanahan, I had her on the show again. She's the one who wrote deep nutrition and the fat burn fix. And then her most recent book is called dark calories. She's the person who really made the whole idea of seed oils being a problem. She's the one who kind of shown the flashlight on that in the beginning and is continuing to do so. But she does talk a lot in that book about how, you know, some people with metabolic issues and insulin resistance and stuff, how they almost like never burn fat, they're pretty much, you know, always burning sugar. So I could definitely see situations where with certain signaling, certain people may not burn fat in the fast. So I can see, basically I can see how it might be a thing, but I don't, but saying like, Oh, if you drink, then you're not going to burn fat for 72 hours. That's just not a true statement, like across the board for everybody.
Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, okay. That's good to know. I'm glad that you brought that up because that was a fear of mine for sure.
Melanie Avalon
You heard of Z-biotics? Yes. Mm-hmm. Sure. I'm obsessed with them too. I just found them sort of a few months ago and they're super cool. It's like a GMO probiotic that breaks down acetaldehyde, which is the toxic byproduct of alcohol in the stomach. It's... Yeah, I love that. But in any case, I super applaud you for knowing what works for you and, you know, really it requires a lot of self-awareness and commitment. So, kudos to you.
What type of cava do you have?
Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I mean, I was drinking, I was trying Trucava, which is a product that was on store shelves. It's like a soda, but I already use element, element tea for hydration. So I thought, you know, I could make a cocktail out of element tea and soda water and cava and kind of create my own concoctions so that I could have different flavors when I wanted them and just experiment with like different dosages of the cava, so it would be like a tincture of cava from, you know, health food store and just see what kind of effect it would have and, you know, how much I really needed to feel and to get an effect that I liked without feeling too sort of out of it, you know, because I still have things, you know, I still have to be productive even at the end of the day. So I don't want to feel like, okay, I'm done.
I'm just going to go sit on the couch now, you know? But cava, you know, ashwagandha, those are the two main ones. And yeah, I think those are the two main ones for drinks that I would use.
Melanie Avalon
I love it. There's something I want to, there's a brand, I haven't tried it yet. They're supposed to send it to me. I need to follow up because I'm dying to try it.
But they make a product called, I think it's called like hard ketones. And basically, I haven't tried it yet. But I watched their video with Tim Ferriss about it. And apparently, I didn't know this. Apparently, there's a ketone that it's not. Okay, I don't want to like say it wrong. It's like an intoxicating ketone. So like basically, it will give you a buzz. But it's not alcoholic. And it's literally just a ketone. And they've turned this into a drink. I'm very intrigued by this concept. Because I always thought of ketones as like the energy substrate, not an intoxicating type feeling, not to say we should all get intoxicated all the time, but basically getting like this, you know, this feeling that you might be desiring from alcohol, getting it from ketones in this drink. So I will report back listeners because I'm very intrigued by this brand. One thing okay, so going back to the fasting, one thing I definitely wanted to touch on is I love that you when you start so when you started fasting, you used the prep for the surgery as a way to jumpstart your fast. Is that right? Like that you had to fast anyways? Yes.
Pamela Wakeman
That's true, I did. I had a surgery coming up for my hip and the timing was such that I could use that as an opportunity because the doctors make you fast for varying lengths of time before surgery. So it seemed like, okay, I'm doing it anyway, I'm just gonna keep it going. And that concept of being able to speed up the recovery, kind of sort of that momentum kept me going.
So I didn't need any like fasted snacks or any kind of special, not special, but like I didn't take in anything else other than water because I wanted to see if this was like really going to help me heal faster. Hard to say because the surgeries these days are so, you know, amazing that, you know, especially for hips, so you're up and about in like a couple of days anyway. But yeah, I mean, I was definitely, gosh, I think I was running a race by Thanksgiving, I wanna say. So yeah, I think that, I think it definitely would have helped. I also had COVID like three weeks after. I fasted through that with element and water and slept. And so, I mean, I don't know. I definitely didn't have it for very long, maybe three days, but I had it and it went away and I felt, you know, great afterwards. So I feel like it's also a great way to sort of heal from like colds and, you know, as long as you're getting, I guess fluids, you know, I didn't feel that it was necessary to eat anything. And if it's gonna make me heal faster then what it's all the better.
Melanie Avalon
I love that so much. I loved reading that from you because it's such a similar response that I have, which is basically if there's ever something that would cause me to not be eating. So for example, like prepping for a colonoscopy or like you said, getting COVID, I'm like, yay, this, I see it as like as a, as a way to have a longer fast. It's actually sort of exciting. I mean, being sick isn't exciting and colonoscopies aren't exciting, but the longer fast is, is nice.
So I love that. It's kind of like a little hack that people can do. So for me, for example, fasting, I do the same thing fasting wise every day. And I have essentially for a decade with very little deviation. I don't think that's for everybody. I think a lot of people like you were mentioning earlier, do well with switching things up and you seem to be pretty comfortable with, you know, switching up your fast and finding what works for you. So, so how do you do that? Like how often do you switch around your fasting protocol? How planned is it versus not planned? Do you ever not fast? What is that like for you?
Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I definitely take a day where I don't fast. I guess I try to, for the most part, do five days of fasting and then two days I'll switch it up and it's usually the weekends.
So it depends if I'm training for something or not. I'm mainly, I'm pushed to like, I like to get to the 17 hour mark because Mindy Pels has different lengths of fast that she talks about and really has research behind. Then she says the 17 hours is really like a sweet spot for autophagy, for starting autophagy. And so I try to get at least a 17 hours, if not, you know, to 20 hours to get that effect. So sometimes I'll do like a one meal a day, if I'm not, you know, if I was one of my days and then one day I won't fast at all. That's pretty much, you know, just because I like to have dinner, you know, with my husband in the evenings, that's kind of our time to catch up. I feel like that meal, I don't want to skip on. So it's much easier to skip out, skip the earlier meals because I'm so busy during the day working. And again, I think that just switching it up is really key because yeah, I feel like the body sort of gets used to a certain like schedule of, you know, a pattern. Then the progress kind of stalls a little bit.
Melanie Avalon
Yes, I love that you can do that so intuitively. Does your husband fast? No.
Pamela Wakeman
But I have been switching over to ketogenic cooking. And so he'll eat the dinners that I make that are keto.
But he still, yeah, he likes to have his breakfast. So he doesn't fast. But if he did, he'd probably disappear.
Melanie Avalon
He's very lean. And how do you find doing things socially? Does it ever become an issue? Do people give you grief? Do you adapt pretty easily? What is that like?
Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, I mean, like, socially, I'll try to save it my non fasting day for a day that I'm gonna, you know, go out with friends, I'll eat whatever, you know, is there. And, you know, right now, I'm enjoying the fact that I'm getting a lot of great Mexican food down here in Tucson, which is new for me. So I'll take advantage of that.
Yeah, I mainly like will try if it's not something that I'm planned for, I don't get grief, and it's pretty easy for me to sort of just like, if I'm going to go some to some of his house or to a party, I'll bring, you know, my own, like, food that, you know, I'm going to share, but it'll be food that I know I can eat. So that really makes it easier for me to, you know, eat, you know, while I'm there. And then, you know, I can usually have my choice of different kinds of drinks. So somehow I can I make it work. And it doesn't seem to bother anybody. I think that I did probably get well, I, my daughters say that I probably lost maybe too much weight in the beginning. Because, again, it was sort of like the momentum like just like I was just continuing continuing just to see how far I could take it. And I felt like I was doing okay. But like, they're like, when they saw me and came to visit for Thanksgiving, they're like, Yeah, you should probably like, you know, even it out a little bit now, maybe cut back a little bit on the cut fasting, because you look really good.
But you know, you don't need to lose any more weight. So, so I think there is a tipping point, you know, where, because the, the ketones or the ketosis, like, it does make you feel really good. And it does make you feel like you have a lot of energy. And so moving past a meal does kind of feel effortless. So just being mindful of the fact that like, Oh, yeah, you still need to get that nutrition in though, because that's really what's, you know, gonna make your body performance fast. So rate it rated it a little bit. You
Melanie Avalon
if you need to, yeah. Yeah, so you said you lost around 20 pounds since September?
Pamela Wakeman
Since September, yeah. I mean, I started back in, I started HRT, like your hormone replacement therapy around June. And I swim quite a bit. So I lost about 15 pounds from just the hormone replacement and the additional exercise.
And then when I found fasting, that really like was the additional, I guess, trigger that I needed to lose the extra, you know, weight that I gained over the, I guess, you know, over 20 years, I really did just sort of, because I did, didn't pay much attention. And I was raising kids and I was cooking for them. And I just didn't pay much attention to, to myself. Really, I wasn't taking care of myself. And that's one of the great things about menopause is that, you know, you do find, finally find the time to take care of yourself and realize that your importance
Melanie Avalon
I love that. And I will say to the HRT point, I recently posted in the Facebook group, a post asking people's opinion on HRT. And I don't think I have ever had so many enthusiastic responses.
Like literally, there was, well, A, so many responses, B, every single one was like shouting to the rooftops about how it changed their life. So I was like, oh, I need to dive into this some more. So I'm glad that that was really helpful for your experience.
Pamela Wakeman
I did get the same, I don't know if this is a thing, but if you've heard of this before, but I went to my doctor and she gave me a hard time. I took the hormone testing or the blood test that said you're definitely in menopause, your hormone levels definitely show signs of that you've been in menopause for a while, so it was probably 55 at the time or 54. So I thought the next, you know, obvious next step would be to go on hormone replacement therapy. It was kind of tough to get her to agree to it and so I really had to kind of go outside of my, you know, normal doctors and go online and find, you know, like an online prescriber who would be able to do that for me.
You know, there's lots of them out there now, but at the time it seemed kind of risky because I didn't know anybody else who was doing that kind of thing, but now it's just so much more prevalent because, you know, there is this hesitancy from doctors to just sort of prescribe it because of whatever risk factors that came along with like studies that were back in the 90s that had these different sort of like alerts to that women like shouldn't be taking hormone replacement therapy because of breast cancer risks or blood clotting risks and things like that. So I just felt like I was a good candidate for it. I knew my health, you know, history and I didn't have the kind of risks that they were talking about. So in order to get what I needed, I had to go outside of my normal doctors. I'm glad I did because I got the help I needed and now I'm looking for new doctors.
Melanie Avalon
I should honestly try to do an episode on this and Peter Atea, I don't know if you listen to him. You said you do. Yes. Yeah. So he has so many amazing episodes on this, which is basically, there was like this study that drew conclusions about HRT and breast cancer in women, but it was completely like just not accurate in it and how it presented the risk. And it basically made all these doctors fearful of HRT when the risks just from what, if you listen to him, you'll just be like, okay, they're just not there.
There's like really a lot of benefits that can come. And so it's interesting, especially because pharmaceuticals usually are so easy to be pushed. It's really interesting to me that it's taken so long to come back from that study and the findings of that study. Yeah. Kudos to you too. Being like, no, I need this.
Pamela Wakeman
Well, I mean, I had an x-ray when I was having my hip done and they noticed a fracture in like in my back. I didn't, you know, I wasn't going to him for any issues with my back, but he noticed this and he said, you need to go get a DEXA scan to find out what's going on there.
And I'm like, what do you mean? Like, what is happening? Like, I don't understand, you know, why my bone, what's happening to me? Why are my bones suddenly like, and you know, obviously women in menopause, their bones start to, you know, there's bone density is a thing. And so I realized that taking the HRT actually is really good for bone density. And one of the best reasons to take HRT is to maintain bone density, you know, the years, you know, as you get older. So even if it wasn't for, you know, the other symptoms that I had, I might still take it just for that reason alone because of the fracture that I had in my back. So there's that.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, I'm so, so glad you found that out. Okay. Well, this has been so, so amazing. I think it's really, really empowering for people to hear and just like, I really, really love your mindset and approach to all of this. It's so, I love how you like seek out all these things and you try them and you find what works. It's just really, really amazing and incredible.
What would you like to leave listeners with when people ask you about intermittent fasting for people who, you know, are struggling or haven't even tried it? Like what is your, your big go-to advice or final thought for, for people on fasting?
Pamela Wakeman
It's not something to be feared, it's fasting is something that empowers you to take control of your own health instead of like leaving your health choices and decisions in the hands, all of your choices in the hands of your doctor. You do have choices that you can make on your own and this one has so many potential benefits that it's at least worth a try, you know, move into it slowly and there's no need to rush into it.
I'm one of those people who like wanted to go all in full, you know, 72 hours all at once and that will not work. It just won't work. I mean, you can power through but you'll never want to fast again after that if that's your first experience with it. That's just it's too much too soon. So definitely just try it and you might be surprised for sure.
Melanie Avalon
Awesome. I love this so much.
Well, thank you so much, Pamela. Thank you for coming here and sharing your story and all the things. It was, I really had a wonderful time. It was awesome.
And Pamela, how can people best follow your work, all the things?
Pamela Wakeman
Yes, I have a website for Pamela Wakeman Wellness, where I am a certified health coach with open source wellness. And I am also working toward my credential for board certification for health coaching.
And one of the requirements for the certification is that I offer free health coaching to anybody who is looking for health coaching or wants to try it to see if that's something that's for them. And so I thought I'd offer, you know, at least three free sessions to get them started and it's all volunteer basis. But if it's something that, you know, your audience is interested in, I definitely have, like I said, the certification for the Fast Like a Girl coaching, but I'm also health and wellness coaching. So anything under the gamut, I'm definitely, you know, able to accommodate.
Melanie Avalon
Awesome. So how can people do they just go to your website or how can people contact you for that?
Pamela Wakeman
Yeah, you can email me at Pamela at PamelaWakemanWellness.com or phwakeman at gmail.com. Either one will hit me and let me know if you're interested.
Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Well, congrats in advance on that.
And for listeners, we will put all of that in the show notes as well. So Pamela Wakeman, wellness.com. The show notes will be at I a podcast.com slash episode 421. And we talked about a lot of things. So definitely check out those show notes. There'll be a full transcript there as well. And if you would like to be a guest on the show, we would love, love to hear your story and have you. So you can actually go to I a podcast.com slash submit and there is a submission form there. So check out that link. And if you have questions for the show, you can directly email questions at I a podcast.com. All right, Pamela. Well, thank you again. So so much. I am sending you all the love and all the good vibes on your journey and we'll have to talk again in the future. Great. I look forward to it. Thanks. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the intermittent fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team editing by podcast doctors, show notes, and artwork, library on a joiner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.