Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 185 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Hi everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 185 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am fabulous, and I have a very exciting announcement.

Melanie Avalon: What is that?

Gin Stephens: For people who can't get enough listening to me talk to you, I'm starting a third podcast. Coming soon. I'll share more details later.

Melanie Avalon: What?

Gin Stephens: Yep. I know you already knew I was working on that, but a third podcast with a friend of mine. For people who listen to Intermittent Fasting Stories, Sheri Bullock, she was episode number nine. And she and I just really hit it off and become friends. We're friends. She and I just went to the beach last week. A few weeks ago, she called me and she's like, “Alright, I'm going to do it. I'm going to start a podcast.” She was asking me for tips about starting a podcast. She said what her vision was, and we were talking about it. It's not going to be an intermittent fasting podcast. It's not going to be about intermittent fasting at all.

Melanie Avalon: How dare you!

Gin Stephens: I know. I feel like now intermittent fasting is just a small part of me. I've got so many other parts of me. But in talking about giving her tips, she was like, “And I'd like to bring people on. What about a cohost? I've been thinking about-- I don't know who it would be.” Then all of a sudden, my brain went, “Ding, ding, ding.” And I said, “Huh. What about me?” She got really excited because she was not asking me to cohost and I wasn't trying to horn in on her podcast idea. But she got really excited, I got really excited. And we just went to the beach for a few days. We hammered it all out. We started a Facebook group to get everybody excited about it. A lot of it's going to be crowdsourced as far as the topics we cover. Anyway, I'm really, really excited.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this is very exciting. You're going to be a three-show woman.

Gin Stephens: Well, I know. It's crazy. I guess my teachers from elementary school, middle, and high school who said Gin talks too much, who's laughing now? But 1st of December, I'll share more information as it goes. But we're giving ourselves a couple months to really hammer out all the details. But it's really, really exciting. We're going to have a community structured around it. And we opened it up, we posted in the Facebook groups about it. And within 24 hours, we had 3,000 members in our community already. And they're all so excited because, again, we're all intermittent fasters. And a lot of people in the intermittent fasting community when you've been doing it, it just becomes part of you. So, you're like, “Alright, now I'm ready to talk about something else.”

Melanie Avalon: Wait, so this community that you created, does it give away what the show is about? Or does it just say--?

Gin Stephens: Maybe. I'll share more later. I'm not quite ready yet. We're still very early. But I know some of the listeners are probably already in our podcast community, but I think it's going to be fabulous. And as we were approving members and looking at how to answer the questions that we asked, like why do you want to be in this community, kind of a thing, what do you want to learn about, they are so aligned with our vision. It's going to be great.

Melanie Avalon: Exciting. 2021.

Gin Stephens: I know, well, it's starting in 2020. But, yes, 2021 is when it's really going to get going. So, I'm just really excited.

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: And I'm never going to stop the intermittent fasting communities for anybody who may be worried. I'm not going anywhere, but it's just nice to branch out a little bit. That's probably how you feel on the biohacking podcast, you get to talk about other interesting topics.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I feel that show really satisfies all of my desires to reach out, like you just said, different topics so I'm not just in the intermittent fasting world.

Gin Stephens: And probably this won't surprise anyone, but ours is not going to be biohacking. It's going to be more life hacks, things you want to know about. For example, when you want to go buy a car, I mean, just general types of things. What do you do when you're an empty nester? We're going to have inspirational stories, lots of little segments in there where we collect stories about life. It's going to be really different. It's not just going to be one topic that we talk about for an hour. It's going to have lots of little different things in there.

Melanie Avalon: It's exciting.

Gin Stephens: I know. I can't wait. Anyway, so what's up with you?

Melanie Avalon: Well, speaking of my other show, which is the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, I probably said this before. I do this thing where I have guests booked for a certain amount of time, like out in the calendar. And then, I'll start stressing and like, “Oh, what if I run out of guests?” So, then I'll massively email 10 or 15 people, and then half of them answer and say they want to come on and then I get really stressed because I'm like, “Oh, my goodness, so many more shows to prep now.” So, I did that. I have a lot of really exciting guests coming on, including one of them who Gin already knows, but Dr. Fung. I am so excited!

Gin Stephens: Very exciting!

Melanie Avalon: It's very weird that we haven't talked to him before, either of us, because you haven't, right? Have you ever talked to him?

Gin Stephens: No, I haven't. I've never talked to him. I feel I've been running along. But I'm sure, yeah, I remember several years ago, even right after Delay, Don't Deny came out maybe, at some point in 2017, I was talking to my sister as my communities were getting bigger and as my book was selling pretty well. And I said, “I wonder if Dr. Fung knows who I am.” She's like, “Oh, he knows.” Just like how we know of everybody. I mean I can't imagine that no one's ever walked into his office and said, “I read Delay, Don't Deny.” I mean, surely. As I look at the weight loss diets category on Amazon, Fast. Feast. Repeat. is usually right next to The Obesity Code, like they've been wanting to every day. Yeah. So, I mean, unless he never looks at Amazon. Oh, can I tell you something? It's hilarious, but a little sad.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: There's a new book on Amazon. And it's called Fast. Feast. Repeat. And it has Delay, Don't Deny also in the subtitle, and it was written by Dr. Gin Herring.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh. It's ridiculous.

Gin Stephens: I know, I would really like to meet Dr. Gin Herring because she sounds amazing. And her title is so very similar to mine. And has 81 five-star reviews. And one of them said that they've read all of my books, and they love them.

Melanie Avalon: All of your books?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Uh-huh. Mine, me. So, people do not buy Fast. Feast. Repeat. by Dr. Gin Herring, because that is a fake person and that is not my book. So, I've emailed my publisher, hopefully they can get that one taken down. But, clearly, I mean, it's ranked in the top 100,000 of all books on Amazon, which means somebody is buying it.

Melanie Avalon: Right. It's insane.

Gin Stephens: It is insane. Amazon should really do a better job because they know that that is nothing but a copycat. They should know. You would think that with the way you publish self-published on Amazon with Kindle Direct Publishing, it has to go through like a process and then it gets approved. They need to put human eyeballs on those books and say, “Is this a copycat of a book that's already out there with the name that's almost exactly the same as the real author?” Because there are a lot of people that is their entire business model is making books that are almost like a real book. And the name of the author is clearly not real, because it's-- there was one book called Fast. Feast. Repeat. The Cookbook, written by Steven Gin.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.

Gin Stephens: I know. I feel like Amazon should be able to notice that's not really a real book and that it's just there to trick people. Amazon, I'm counting on you. You can clean this up. I love you but you're going to have to do a little better. That's all I have to say.

Melanie Avalon: I have an exciting announcement that I realized we never announced.

Gin Stephens: Ooh, what is that?

Melanie Avalon: I'm really upset. We'd like implemented this, but then we never actually told the listeners.

Gin Stephens: Oh my God. What is it?

Melanie Avalon: You might not even know.

Gin Stephens: I might not know.

Melanie Avalon: Our episode show notes have transcripts.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I knew that we were doing it. I saw it through emails when they're sending them, but I didn't know that it was like--

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I'm going to start saying that. When you go to the show notes for today's episode, ifpodcast.com/episode185, there are transcripts.

Gin Stephens: Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: So, if you miss something, I guess people who can't hear will not be listening to this right now. But we did get requests from people who are deaf. So now, they can read it. And yeah.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm so glad.

Melanie Avalon: Yep.

Gin Stephens: All right. Well, are we ready to get started? The first question is a very important one, a doozy, and oh my God, I've been so angry about this whole thing. So, literally angry. Go ahead, read it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Our first question comes from Megan. The subject is "TREAT Clinical Trial." And Megan says, “Hello, ladies. I appreciate your podcast and thorough research and explanations. Can you guys please review and comment on the TREAT clinical trial of intermittent fasting? They found no weight loss in 12 weeks with overweight and obese patients. I'd love your thoughts.”

Gin Stephens: All right. Yeah, I'd be glad to talk about that. First of all, I'm so proud of my community, because I posted an announcement about this the day after it came out and the comment section was just beautiful. So, bravo to all of you in the community, they get it, they understand it, they understand what was wrong with this study. It's not that there's necessarily something wrong with the study, although I definitely have some thoughts about that. But it's the conclusion that made me angry. Okay.

Let me read it. I'm sure everybody's probably seen the headlines, but the name of the study, “Effects of time-restricted eating on weight loss, and other metabolic parameters in women and men with overweight and obesity, the TREAT randomized clinical trial.” Now, I'm not going to tell you anything about the study other than let me read the conclusion to you. If all you read was the title and the conclusion is what I'm trying to get across. Okay, so the title you got what that is. The conclusion is, “Time-restricted eating, in the absence of other interventions, is not more effective in weight loss than eating throughout the day.” I see red every time I read that, that is one sentence. Okay, now, why is this so frustrating? That's when we need to talk about what did they actually do.

Basically, they put people into two groups, okay, and one group for 12 weeks. These were people, men and women, 18 to 64 years old who had a BMI from 27 to 43. So, it's really important to know also that these people were overweight or obese. Every person was overweight or obese. And they put them in two groups. One group was told to eat three structured meals a day, and the other group was told to do 16:8 eating whatever they wanted, ad libitum is scientific words for that. Eat however you want, from noon till 8:00 PM. So, the one group was told eat three meals a day, and the other group was told eat whatever you want in an eight-hour eating window,

Melanie Avalon: And the three meal a day group could have snacking.

Gin Stephens: They could also have snacks if they want, yes. But also, of course, they were not clean fasting, the group that was fasting was not fast and clean. But that's a whole other wrinkle. And so, I'm not even going to get into that right now. But they did 16:8, the participants were overweight and obese, and they did 16:8. And so, I think the conclusion should be time-restricted eating with a 16:8 approach, in the absence of other interventions, is not more effective in weight loss than eating throughout the day. But you know what? I said that in Fast. Feast. Repeat. I have a whole section where I talk about different eating windows, and in that section, I say 16:8 is not enough fasting for weight loss for most of us. I mean it's the approach my husband, who is thin and didn't need to lose weight, it's what he does.

So, I am so irate that they used a study of 16:8, and then generalized it to, “Oh, time-restricted eating doesn't work,” because that is ridiculous. We've got Krista Varady’s research that she did earlier this year and I guess the media can't remember that they just reported about this one in June. Krista Varady, who is a well-respected intermittent fasting researcher-- actually it was July. She found that there was weight loss in a four-hour or six-hour eating window. So, the part that's so frustrating is we've been saying a lot from the beginning all along based on what we see with people who are intermittent fasters that eight hours may not be a short enough feeding window. 16 hours may not be enough fasting. You're not going to flip that metabolic switch, a lot of people. And so, it's just been very frustrating to see the media were like, “Well, it just showed intermittent fasting doesn't work.” That's not what it showed at all. All right. That's my ranting.

Melanie Avalon: You know what else is interesting?

Gin Stephens: What?

Melanie Avalon: It's also interesting that both groups lost weight.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, exactly. And actually, they did lose more. The eight-hour eating window group did lose more, but it wasn't statistically significant. So, there is that little feature as well. But we often see that with people that are overweight and obese, it can take their bodies longer to adjust to intermittent fasting. We know that if you're overweight and obese, you probably have higher fasting insulin levels. So, it's going to take more time for that to correct. I mean there's so many variables here, but the way that the media just gleefully said, “Oh, look, intermittent fasting doesn't work.” Forget about the fact that just two months ago, we had a study that showed it did. Anyway, but then people were freaking out. And I did just say how my community was overall fabulous. But a few people tried to post like, “Oh my God, it doesn't work.” She's like, “I've lost for 40 pounds. But I just saw study that said it doesn't work.” Well, clearly, it worked if you lost 40 pounds, so we've got to really think about this. No one told my body intermittent fasting didn't work when I lost 80 pounds.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and the thing is, I do find the response that's been so passionate and fearful in a way. I can't make objective statements, but I don't really ever see myself becoming fearful or freaking out from a study. It's just information.

Gin Stephens: One of the thing that freaked people out was that they had a little muscle mass loss.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, actually, yeah, we should talk about that.

Gin Stephens: But here's my thought there. First of all, they were not fasting clean, because they were allowed to drink zero-calorie beverages, I'm assuming they had diet sodas, I don't even really know. They even said, for example, only 83% of the fasting group even was compliant. So, I don't even know what that means. Maybe only 83% even did it and it was self-reported. So maybe the compliance was even worse than that. We don't know. But they were not fasting clean. They were not fasting clean, and they were very likely not fat adapted. So, the whole magic, what Dr. Mark Mattson always talks about in his work for the New England Journal of Medicine in his research, flipping that metabolic switch and becoming fat adapted is key, if you want to tap into fat stores, that's part of the metabolic magic, is that being fat adapted.

Melanie Avalon: I was really shocked actually by the muscle mass loss because, yeah, what they found was that the weight loss did seem to be mostly for muscle.

Gin Stephens: And can I tell you, a friend of mine actually emailed Mark Mattson? I did not. I'm scared to reach out to him because I was such a fan.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, wait, wait, wait. This is hysterical. I don't know, because I just feel I'm reaching out to everybody all the time.

Gin Stephens: I just love Mark Mattson so much. Anyway, but my friend, she's a moderator in my group, sent him an email, and he replied, do you want to know what he said?

Melanie Avalon: Maybe I should email him. What did he say?

Gin Stephens: The two major flaws in the JAMA study were that they did not determine calorie intake or diet composition. And they did not track exercise levels. His point, I guess, being that the two groups were so different.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Maybe the eight-hour people were actually eating more. And therefore, it was kind of amazing that they-- you know what I'm saying? We don't know, they might have eaten more food in eight hours.

Melanie Avalon: We don't know. But they could have been eating twice the amount and have comparable-- So, let's say that was the case. This is just hypothetical. But just to play a story game. If they were eating way more, but lost the same or even more, you would have a completely different conclusion sentence. I mean, you could.

Gin Stephens: You surely would, but we don't know because we don't know what they ate. So, really, if they had matched the groups controlled for calories, or given the exact same amount of food, just eating in a different pattern, then you would know. Basically, this study shows that if you tell people eat whatever you want for eight hours, you're not likely to lose weight. But I learned that when I read the eight-hour diet that promised you could and I didn't, it didn't work for me-- So, just to say that again, in case people, I really think this study showed that telling people to eat whatever you want for eight hours is not good for weight loss. That's all it showed.

Melanie Avalon: My version of the study would be like, add in another factor, like eat only whole foods or something and see what happens. I've had James Clement on my show, he wrote a book called The Switch. I'll put a link to that episode in the show notes. But he's really big in this world. And I asked him his thoughts. And he said, basically, something similar to what you just said, you can't just necessarily eat whatever you want for this amount of time and expect weight loss.

Gin Stephens: Although they did lose a little weight. They did lose a little. But they could have been eating twice as much as the other people and we just don't know, that would have been a great study if we knew what they were eating. Of course, self-reporting is always hard. But if they gave them like, “Here's the food you're all going to eat,” like match them in a different way. The variables were not very controlled.

Melanie Avalon: What I want to know is how they did determine estimated energy intake because they did. It's weird, they estimated the energy intake. So, they said, at the end they have a section called Strengths and Limitations, and they say that, “A limitation is we do not have self-reported measures of energy or macronutrient intake. Although we did not measure calorie intake, mathematical modeling of changes in energy intake suggests that calorie intake did not significantly differ between groups. This model has been validated to be more accurate than self-reported energy intake.” I need to like look into this. I don't even know what that is.

Gin Stephens: We didn't count calories, but we used this other method to estimate-- I don't know, that's weird.

Melanie Avalon: The studies that are linked to for that are ones called objective versus self-reported energy intake changes during low carb and low-fat diets. And the second one is validation of an inexpensive and accurate mathematical method to measure long-term changes in free-living energy intake. Listeners, I apologize that I haven't read those yet. I'm going to report back on this. That's interesting. I want to know what this magical mathematical model is that's more valuable than self-reporting.

Gin Stephens: I know that mathematically knows what how much you're eating.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't know. I'm very intrigued. That’s like Santa Claus.

Gin Stephens: Is it riding a unicorn?

Melanie Avalon: I don't know.

Gin Stephens: All right. Now can I also tell you one of the conflicts of interest?

Melanie Avalon: Uh-huh.

Gin Stephens: One of the scientists that was on this is a cofounder and equity stakeholder of a company that is keto. It's a keto company. They sell a breath analyzer for keto and also lots of keto snacks. Yeah, they would have a lot of interest if they're selling you snacks, that they would have an interest in wanting you to not fast because they want to sell you keto snacks. I just thought that was interesting. I didn't even notice that, it was somebody in my group that noticed it, that they had that conflict. Oh, and another one of them, also two of them have connections to that keto group, the keto company. I just think that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: I want to know if-- because I read a lot of the coverages of this, like the articles about it and there have been some interviews with the main guy. They make it sound like he says he's stopping intermittent fasting from what he found, but I want to know if they twisted his words. The way they posited it, I could see how maybe they did but I'm not sure, I don't know, this is just me.

Gin Stephens: How they twisted it?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I mean I can tell you right now, I am 51 years old. I am menopausal, by the way, I'm on the other side. I'm officially there. I'm officially in menopause. I don't even know what words to use. I'm not sure how to say it. I don't have muscle measurement prior to starting intermittent fasting when I was obese versus now. But I'm not sitting here with lack of muscle. I mean I've been doing intermittent fasting since 2014 and I'm not sitting here, this emaciated muscleless old lady. In fact, my Shapa scale that you stand on every morning that I talked about in another episode, estimates my age based on my body composition alone, as 31.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm 51. My Shapa scale this morning said, my Shapa age based on my body composition is 31. So does that sound like--

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to get the Shapa scale.

Gin Stephens: Oh my God, I love it so much. Go to ginstephens.com/favoritethings tab everybody. There's a promo code there. It's IFSTORIES. I love getting on the scale. I just went to the beach, like I said, and you come back from vacation and you probably ate out several times. I got on the scale anyway, I didn't care because I can't see the number. I just got on and got off because I don't have to be tied to a number.

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: I just see my color, but my age was 30 before I went to the beach, and now it's 31. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That is funny.

Gin Stephens: So, I probably have a little water retention, but it doesn't matter. I'm not upset about it. But I am not sitting here like this crazy muscleless 51-year-old person. Anyway, I know I'm just one person, but I don't also have an eight-hour eating window day after day after day and drinking my zero-calorie sodas. I don't. I drink black coffee. I drink plain water. I fast clean. I have a four-ish, five-ish hour eating window. It works great.

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Melanie Avalon: Megan also says, “In general, how do you guys respond in your personal lives when someone uses studies like this to tell you ‘IF is wrong,’ just trying to prepare myself.”

Gin Stephens: I think the key is in really understanding what the study was because when I first saw the headlines, the first person sent me the article saying intermittent fasting doesn't work-- Okay, first of all, we have hundreds of thousands of people that would say otherwise. But I couldn't wait to get my eyes on the actual study. And then, when I read it, I was like, “Well, okay, I'm not surprised at all that they found that out.” In fact, if you had said to me, “Hey, Gin, let me tell you this study design, what do you think they'll find?” I would have not been surprised at that. I would actually really love to work with some scientists. I mean I have a doctorate in gifted education, I know about research design. And I also have a lot of practical experience with intermittent fasters, hundreds of thousands of them. I would love to help someone design a study at a research institute, work with them as a consultant for free. I would just love to do it, help design this study. A study with clean fasting, a study that we can really give them a long period of time. Let's control those variables. I mean, I know how to control variables, my elementary science lab background. I have a master's degree in science education for kids, I did the science fair with kids for years and years and years. Elementary kids know how to control variables better than some of the research studies I've read.

Melanie Avalon: I still think I have the most brilliant idea for an intermittent fasting study. [unintelligible [00:32:45] I think I've said it before, I think it would be a way to completely get rid of the placebo effect. You have to take a pill, like you think the study is about the pill and the qualifications of the pill is it can't be taken with food. And the way it's set up is it'll force you into a window without realizing it. So, you'll be taking pills at certain times, and it'll force you into a window. You think they're testing the pill, but really, they're testing fasting.

Gin Stephens: That's a great idea.

Melanie Avalon: Isn't it?

Gin Stephens: And I also think you should have one more group that doesn't take the pill that-- see if those two groups have any differences. One group that fasts with the pill, one group that fasts without the pill, and then the other group.

Melanie Avalon: A group that knows they're fasting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: But without the pill.

Gin Stephens: Because the pill is also a variable. See, that's the thing. That's the tricky part with people. The pill is also a variable, even though you're doing it-- because maybe the pill’s affecting them some way.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because the way I was thinking it would be two groups and a control group. But the two groups taking the pill, one group because of the timing of when they have to take it, it forces them into an eating window than the other group. Yeah, the other group, it doesn't.

Gin Stephens: But what if the pill itself affects their fast somehow?

Melanie Avalon: That's always the thing.

Gin Stephens: Right. That's why I would have a group that didn't take the pill, just to see.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think would be a really cool study though.

Gin Stephens: Well, anyway, it's just so frustrating to me. I have a listserv that I'm on, is that what it's called? I don't even know, where I get email. It's like an email a summary of obesity. It's like obesity and something, something, whatever. And it's all the studies that relate to obesity and weight loss in any way, shape, or form. And they have a section, study versus headline.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I like that.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. Let me find one and I'll share it with you because it's hilarious, but study versus headline are so funny because really the reports-- here it is, Obesity and Energetics Offerings is the name of it. Okay, so headline versus study. All right, here's a study. Vitamin D deficiency serves as a precursor to stunted growth and central adiposity, I hate to say it, in zebrafish. That was important. The headline was, “Vitamin D deficiency can lead to obesity.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh.

Gin Stephens: Okay. There's one example. All right, let me read another one.

Melanie Avalon: That's ridiculous.

Gin Stephens: I know. Headline versus study. Study, perceived change in physical activity levels and mental health during COVID-19. Findings among adult twin pairs. Headline, researchers perplexed, COVID-19 stress may be hard to beat, even with exercise.

Melanie Avalon: I'd have to read that study.

Gin Stephens: Here's another one. Study, REM sleep stabilizes hypothalamic-- I'm sure I said that wrong-- representation of feeding behavior in mice. Headline, REM sleep affects our eating habits. They just over-generalize, and the way they've portrayed this study is just maddening. And I also saw, I don't know if I'm allowed to say that Jason Fung also responded to you about it. And he's not a fan of the study, either. Right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it was perfect timing, because I had literally just booked him-- or talking to him about booking him for the show. And so, I was like, “I hope you're surviving the TREAT study.” And he said clearly, something about like, that's what happens when you have people who have never--

Gin Stephens: With no clinical experience with intermittent fasting?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, try to design a fasting study.

Gin Stephens: That's why I think that I'd be really good at helping scientists design a fasting study because we really have a lot of anecdotal of what's worked and what hasn't, and what people have tweaked and what has led to success versus when they weren't finding success. So, I know that what we have is not hard science, but it's absolutely valuable. It should not be discounted, just because we're real people in a group. We're people who are trying, and we know what things are working. And it's often not 16:8. That's why I said that in Fast. Feast. Repeat. You may really love 16:8-- because people sell it as like, easy. If only it was just that easy. Just do a 16:8, you're going to lose weight, it's going to be fabulous, eat whatever you want. Except that's not what happens.

Melanie Avalon: I think it can actually make you a million times worse potentially if you are doing 16:8 seeing it as like this binge fast, eat all you want. And then, if you're eating things that are close to my heart, like high seed oils, fats that are wrecking you metabolically, if you're just going to town on those during this time, I mean, I just think it will make things worse.

Gin Stephens: I think eating terribly for eight hours and fasting for 16 could be more detrimental than eating a healthy diet within a more standard like a 12-hour-period.

Melanie Avalon: If I had to choose between those, 200%.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, so a lot of frustration in the intermittent fasting world. Hopefully, the attention span will be short. There'll be something shiny for them to talk about next. And maybe another good study will come out. But, again, replying to Megan, I'm not sure I really answered her question. How do you respond when someone uses studies like this to tell you IF is wrong? You need to be really aware of what the study actually did. Go to the study. Don't just read what the media tells you about the study, read the study. And then, if you're educated, you can start picking out the flaws.

I've mentioned this before. I read a study one time, I read sections of it to fourth graders who were able to find the flaw in the control. Yeah, there was one group that was eating low carb, and one group is eating low fat, but that group was allowed to eat-- I mean, it was ridiculous. It didn't show anything. And the kids are like, “They didn't control that variable.” I'm like, “Yeah, but they used this to prove something.” Anyway. So, do your research, and also, if you know it's working for you and you feel better, trust that. I trust my body, and my body loves this.

Melanie Avalon: You can find a study to pretty much say anything about anything you're doing. And probably, it'll say it's right or it's wrong.

Gin Stephens: It's true.

Melanie Avalon: When it comes to food, at least.

Gin Stephens: It's true.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. This is what I said earlier. I don't have any fear about studies, I literally have zero fear, zero, because if you think about it logically, if the reason it's so terrifying is because it was poorly constructed, or it's not making the right conclusions, or it wasn't-- if there's a reason, then it doesn't matter. Then, there's no reason to fear. If it does show something, okay, there's something to learn from that. There's no reason to be scared. I don't think we should ever be scared of knowledge or questioning or looking at new information. And this is not a good example, because we just talked about how this study is more an example of the first situation where it's not even something to be scared of.

Gin Stephens: You go back to that conclusion. Let me read this again, listeners. The conclusion was, “Time-restricted eating in the absence of other interventions is not more effective in weight loss than eating throughout the day.” And I would just like to say, how many times have we tried weight loss eating throughout the day? And we were able to lose weight, but were we able to keep it off? For me, I lost weight 100 different ways and never one time in my life, did I keep it off until time-restricted eating. So many flaws in that conclusion. I mean, actually maybe 12 weeks of a low-calorie diet where I was eating throughout the day, maybe I would have lost more weight than with time-restricted eating, I don't know. But there's more to it than just head to head, which one makes you lose more weight? Talk to me after you've been doing it for four years, and your fasting insulin levels are normalized and your A1c is normalized and that's really important.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. Exactly. Don't have fear. That's the other thing, if you have fear, you're not going to want to-- I don't think we should be scared of looking at anything, even if it's wrong. Don't have fear. There's no reason not to. And to her question about how do you respond? Gin just said it really well, you can talk about what the study actually showed, what we do know, personal experience, and all of the myriad of other studies that show the complete opposite. So, there's so much research.

Gin Stephens: Yep. All right. Moving on to a question from Jeff.

Melanie Avalon: I knew that was going to be like most of our episode today.

Gin Stephens: I knew it was too. It was important, and I'm sure it made a lot of people out there go, “Ha-ha, I told you so. Intermittent fasting doesn't work.” I mean, “No.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, the next question kind of ties into this as well.

Gin Stephens: I also find, Melanie, that what's so interesting whenever I'm talking to people, and they're like, “Well, I tried intermittent fasting, and it didn't work for me.” Whenever I'm having that conversation with someone, they were not fasting clean, I mean, 100% of the time, I'm like, “Well, what did you drink?” They're like, “Well, I would start my day with coffee with butter and coconut oil. And then, I would have diet sodas, and then I would have a Gatorade Zero.” I'm like, “All right, well, I bet you're starving all the time, weren't you?”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: And they're like, “Yeah.” I'm like, “Well, let me tell you why.”

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Gin Stephens: We have a question from Jeff the subject is “Early is better?” He said, “I listened to Dr. Greger on nutrition facts. He says that eating your calories earlier is better given circadian rhythm and all that. So, I try. And my window is 11:00 to 7:00. I snack from 11 kind of on healthy snacks and then supper time, I pretty much eat what I want, but not too heavy. And then, if I stop eating after seven, I know I'll go to bed with a light belly and all is good. Question I have is do you see value in Dr. Greger’s advice and would you consider sharing that with your listeners. Because of circadian rhythm our bodies metabolize calories differently during the day than overnight.” And that is Dr. Greger’s theory, that's just me saying that, that last part, Jeff wrote it, but he was summarizing Dr. Greger’s theory.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, I'm glad we had this question too because it was one other thing to clarify from the TREAT study that we didn't mention was-- I think it's interesting people's perceptions of early versus late because in the study that we just talked about their window was 12:00 to 8:00. And they were considering that a late window because one of the things they talked about in the end was saying that maybe if it had been an earlier window, so like a breakfast, lunch situation, that the results might have been different, which is interesting. I feel like they probably-- I don't know if it would have been different.

Gin Stephens: For me, it would have been harder to stay compliant. I wonder if they'd have seen their compliance numbers go down from 80. I mean, 83% is not a huge compliance amount.

Melanie Avalon: The reason they said that they wanted to do 12:00 to 8:00 was they thought people would be more compliant because it was easier to skip breakfast, and, yeah, skip dinner. But I just thought was also interesting because Jeff is doing a very similar window. He's doing 11:00 to 7:00 instead of 12:00 to 8:00, but he's considering that an early window.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that is true. Good point.

Melanie Avalon: And for me, that would be an early window.

Gin Stephens: Me too. I'm not hungry at 11:00.

Melanie Avalon: I can't even say when I eat because people would freak out.

Gin Stephens: It's 2:00, and I'm not even hungry. 11:00 is like so early to me, though.

Melanie Avalon: I know. It really is. Yes, we've talked about this a little bit before. The main takeaways or the basic idea here at least, and this is just my opinion, but there is a lot of research looking at early versus late night eating. A lot of that research has people still eating though throughout the whole day. So, what happens is by the time evening comes, they have eaten earlier. So, it's not like they were fasting and then ate in the evening. Usually, it's just more weighted towards one side.

Gin Stephens: Can I clarify what you're saying? I know exactly what you mean. What you're saying is some of these studies show that later in the day, insulin sensitivity is worse, but they've been eating all day. So, it might have to do with the length of the time period that they were eating. If you eat for 12 hours, 14 hours in a row, later in that eating day, your insulin sensitivity is wrong. And it's not time of day that's the problem. The problem is that you've been eating all day.

Melanie Avalon: Because when you've been fasting, you're pretty insulin sensitive. If you're fasting all day and then you have a late eating time, you're probably going to be insulin sensitive. The times you're not insulin sensitive is if you've also been eating earlier.

Gin Stephens: We really need a study with the early window and a late window with all other variables being equal, which is what we don't have. A really good study. There's some study-- there is one that I've read, and they did do that, but it was very short, and they found no difference.

Melanie Avalon: I did find one. I think it's when we talked about on the show before and it actually did-- I'd have to revisit it, but it was controlled. And it did look at this and it did seem to find that early was better.

Gin Stephens: Is that the one though where they ate longer and the light one?

Melanie Avalon: It was the one with shift workers and they were trying to figure out if insulin and all of that, was it adapting to like the pattern of the eating or was it literally from like the circadian rhythm of the world, and it seemed to be from the circadian rhythm. At the beginning, it would adapt differently to the person.

Gin Stephens: Were they eating like in the middle of the night?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: See, that's a whole different variable also.

Melanie Avalon: It's been a while since I read it.

Gin Stephens: That is a completely different variable that to me, doesn't show anything because we know that shift work itself is an issue. You're waking and your sleeping at different times so there's more than just the eating is at a different time. Yeah, I don't think I would draw any conclusions from that.

Melanie Avalon: These are my personal thoughts, and this is not based on any one study. This is just--

Gin Stephens: Because we don't have one. We don't have a good one.

Melanie Avalon: This is just based on the collective literature that I've read to date, including a lot of Dr. Greger’s work, which I have talked about this before. I love reading his books because I get exposed to so many studies because he footnotes like every other sentence. That said, it's not-- Gin was getting upset in the beginning, now it's my turn to get upset.

Gin Stephens: Get upset, get upset.

Melanie Avalon: That said the overwhelming amount of cherry-picking that I perceive that he does, and misrepresentation of studies is very upsetting. And I think because he cites so many studies so constantly, he comes off as very authoritative and very like, “Oh, he knows what he's talking about because he just quoted the entirety of scientific literature and has references to it.” And I think a lot of people just take that at face value rather than going and looking and seeing what he's citing. A lot of it is spot on. Some of it is not spot on. Some of it's completely misinterpreted. But the main thing is he really, really just pulls the studies to support his primarily plant-based paradigm, doesn't represent the rest of the literature in my opinion. And I'm saying that as in kind of a way as I can, but that's just-- I don’t know how to say that. That's the sense I get.

The final thought is he also tries to make it very clear that he doesn't cherry-pick. He says that all the time. So, it's a little bit frustrating. That said, from everything that I've read and seen, I actually do think, I don't know, because the study hasn't been done. But I actually do think if everything was controlled, I actually think it'd be better for people eating earlier rather than later. I do.

Gin Stephens: And by better, you mean better with your physiology?

Melanie Avalon: Metabolically, yeah. I think it would probably be better for insulin, hormones, and sleep.

Gin Stephens: See, I can't sleep when I have an early window. I absolutely can't sleep when I have an early window. Have you ever tried it? Have you tried having an early window?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's always an epic fail. Which brings me to my second point.

Gin Stephens: But were you able to sleep?

Melanie Avalon: The reason I do think so is the best sleep I ever have is on those days when for some reason-- I mean, true. It's usually because I'm sleep deprived, so I need a nap. But it's like, when I take a nap and I'm in the fasted state, there's just something-- I don't know, I feel if I could fall asleep in the fasted state, and I don't mean severely fasted, but I don't know. I think if the body could be not digesting during these precious sleep regulating-- or during the part of our sleep, where we're supposed to be doing repair and all this stuff and not completely in the fed state, I think it would probably be more beneficial. I just personally is, what you just said, I can't really sleep on an empty stomach.

The second part of all this was, while I think in theory if you can magically force yourself into an early window versus a later window, while I think the early window would probably be better, I think practically a large percent of people, the way they can implement it, and stick to it, and keep to the eating window and get the benefits and sleep and do all these things is with a later eating window. And I think that practicality of it far, far, far outweighs any hypothetical concept of having it in the morning versus the evening.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and it's all theoretical again. I've yet to see a long-term, well-designed study with all variables that were controlled, and they weren't eating in the middle of the night as shift workers work because that's a whole extra variable. I've yet to see one that was well designed and long term. The one really short one that we have, they found no difference.

Melanie Avalon: I'll have to double-check that one because I don't really remember the details.

Gin Stephens: Okay, but all this to say, I know people, personally, one of my moderator friends, she has a breakfast eating window. She wakes up, she eats breakfast, she closes her window by 11:00 or 12:00, and she feels best that way. She sleeps better when she does that. That 100% works better for her body. And so, that's the thing. Just because Melanie and I do better with a later window-- and my window is shifted earlier than Melanie's. I've been opening my window lately more around 2:00 or 3:00 a lot of days. And since I'm not drinking right now, closing my window at dinnertime, so no more after 7:00 because I'm not finishing up a glass of wine or anything. So, instead of having a window that's more like 4:00 to 9:00, it's more like 2:00 to 7:00. And that's feeling really good for me right now. But I wouldn't call that an early window, or a late window. It's just like a dinner hour.

Melanie Avalon: To me, it would be so early!

Gin Stephens: Yeah. See?

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. Which is a good example of how-- I'm like an extreme case scenario.

Gin Stephens: Also, how my window has shifted over time. And honestly, it was later because of wine. It was my wine window. By the way, I'm sleeping so great. Sleeping so great. I had wine the other day. I had a couple glasses of wine, and I didn't feel as well. I'm not going to never drink again but--

Melanie Avalon: I'm not going to never not drink again.

Gin Stephens: Well, good.

Melanie Avalon: No, that's not true. I mean, I don't anticipate going completely sober for a year and a half. By sober I mean, like not drinking.

Gin Stephens: I went to the beach last week and didn't drink the whole time I was there. And I had just as much fun. I worried about that because I thought back and from even when I was a child, my mother and watching the adults with their cocktails, and that's how they relax, that's how they had fun. Then, I went to college, and it just became internalized like, “Oh, if we're having fun, if we're at the beach, if we're at a party, we've got to have alcohol, that's what you do.” So, I was like, “Alright,” well, this is the first time I ever in my entire life, went to the beach with a friend and did not drink alcohol the whole time. Which sounds crazy, but it's true. I mean ever since I've been an adult. I mean I was like 12 years old at the beach with a friend not drinking. But I mean as a grownup who legally can drink. I drove everywhere. I didn't have to take Uber. That was really nice. I just drove and at a restaurant, I got club soda with a splash of cranberry and some lime. And I felt like I was having a cocktail. I had just as much fun. I didn't feel like I missed a thing. It was very eye opening. I just drank because I felt like it's what you did. And I also slept so much better at the beach, anyway.

We're all so different. We really, really are. That's the point. You do great with the wine. I don't do as great. I still love it. I'm still going to have it here and there. But never, never again, like as a day-to-day part of my life, I think. I think I can safely say that. I'm never going to have a daily glass of wine.

Melanie Avalon: And I think I probably will or like a quarter of a glass at least. I've said this before, but to clarify when I was-- the year and a half, I actually was still having like a tablespoon of liquid wine.

Gin Stephens: I just can't imagine having a tablespoon of wine.

Melanie Avalon: Like a sip. Just a sip, as a medicine or something.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I get it. I really love wine. I love it.

Melanie Avalon: If listeners do drink wine, drink the only wine I drink, which is Dry Farm Wines.

Gin Stephens: Dry Farm Wines, I'm a fan. It's the only wine I will drink from now on for the rest of my life. I can say that 100% because if I'm somewhere and they have just standard one, I'd rather drink zero. Nothing.

Melanie Avalon: I was thinking about this. I haven't been like-- I don't know if bars are even open right now. But I haven't been out to like a bar.

Gin Stephens: They are.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I haven't been out in that type of setting in quite a while. And now I'm like, “What will I do if I--"

Gin Stephens: Caveat, they are where I am.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they are here too, I think. Actually, there's one bar I really want to go to where I think they have some sort of like-- they were the first one in Atlanta to have an air COVID-purifying system thing.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know how that actually works. But I was like, “Oh, that sounds exciting.” Oh, yeah, I think we talked about this and it's a speakeasy, which they don't have in Augusta.

Gin Stephens: I don't know if we talked about that on the air or off the air. I think it was off the air.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I had just as much fun having my club soda with a splash of cranberry. I felt like I was drinking a cocktail. And I had just as much fun. So, it's a new chapter. The first time I go anywhere with my college friends and I'm like, “I'm going to have club soda with cranberry.” They're going to be like, “What!?”

Melanie Avalon: That is a nice thing. You can order that, and if you don't say that it's not a drink--

Gin Stephens: I don't care if people think I'm drinking or not drinking or anything. I want to feel good, that's what I've come to terms with. And so, I feel better when I don't drink. And that's crazy to me because drinking has been part of my life. 30 years, I've been drinking legally.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners who do want to drink, you can go to dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and get a bottle for a penny.

Gin Stephens: You sure can and I highly recommend it. I highly recommend it!

Melanie Avalon: Me too.

Gin Stephens: Even though, so. I'm definitely not anti-drinking, or anti-people who want to drink around me, but I didn't feel like I was missing out, that was the part that was crazy. Other people were drinking around me, my friend was drinking. We had another moderator friend that came down to spend a night with us. There were three of us. They both opened a bottle of Cava.

Melanie Avalon: Like Kava-kava? Did they brew it?

Gin Stephens: Well, Spanish wine. Am I saying it wrong? C-A-V-A? Is it Cava? I don't know. It's a Spanish sparkling wine?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I thought you're talking about kava-kava, like the tea.

Gin Stephens: Oh, no. This was Spanish sparkling wine. Yeah, they were drinking Spanish sparkling white wine. They call it Cava, isn't that how they say it? Anyway, whatever. However, they say it I've only seen it written and never heard anyone say it as far as I know. But they were drinking it in champagne glasses right there in my condo. And I was like, “I don't even want to have it. I'm going to drive us to dinner. I'll be fine.” And I was like, I've never driven to dinner at the beach because we always are drinking. It was very different. So, anyway, I liked it.

Melanie Avalon: So, good times.

Gin Stephens: It is good times. We had a really good time.

Melanie Avalon: Well, for listeners, the show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode185. Those show notes will have transcripts. So, definitely check that out. If you'd like to submit your own questions to the podcast, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I'm @melanieavalon, Gin's @ginstephens. And I think that is it. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Talk to you then.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Gin Stephens: Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 184 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Melanie Avalon: And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that what you put on your skin gets direct access to your bloodstream and in your body can do a lot of detrimental things? So, while you may be fasting clean, you may at the same time be infusing your body with endocrine disrupters, which can mess with your hormones, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight and even carcinogens.

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All right, now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 184 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm sitting here drinking hot water in a mug, so you know how I am.

Melanie Avalon: It's warm again, though.

Gin Stephens: It's not warm here.

Melanie Avalon: Really?

Gin Stephens: Well, okay, it's warmer, but it's very cloudy, and it is warmer than it had been. But my feet were cold. I'm wearing short sleeves and cropped jeans. And so, I guess I was walking around the house. Our house has a very cold floor. I think I said that last time. So, my feet got cold, so I was getting something to drink to take into the podcast studio, and I said I think I want hot water.

Melanie Avalon: I'm sorry that you're struggling.

Gin Stephens: That's all right. Yeah. Going to the beach next week and I think I'm going to take my Uggs.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my goodness.

Gin Stephens: I don't even know if Uggs are still in style, but I don't care because they're so cozy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, see, I don't like shoes that are enclosed like that.

Gin Stephens: I don't like shoes that you have to wear socks with.

Melanie Avalon: Ugh, me neither.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, so I'm great with barefoot season. I'm great with flip-flops and sandals. I can wear Uggs because you don't have to wear socks, and I can also wear Mini-tonka, what are they moccasins? Because you don't have to wear socks. But I don't do well with socks.

Melanie Avalon: I don't like socks. We have something in common.

Gin Stephens: Yay! My feet like to be free. So, anyway.

Melanie Avalon: I haven't actually been outside yet today, so I don't know if it's--

Gin Stephens: We went and ran some errands. It just is the gross-feeling cloudy, fall day. It's not one of those beautiful, crisp fall days. It's just a yucky, kind of wet-- It's not cold, it's probably 78 degrees. So, people are going to be laughing at me. But it's dreary. 78 and sunny is very different than 78 and a wet, cloudy.

Melanie Avalon: This is true.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's very humid. It's very, very humid and cloudy. It's like a sticky kind of cloudy,

Melanie Avalon: I actually got happy that it was humid and sticky for a very random reason because normally I don't like that. Remember how I had the flood in my apartment?

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: The apartment people are just not pulling it together. They're not fixing it. They're not doing mold testing or whatever. So, I was like, "I'm just going to do my own mold testing." So, I had a service come and I scheduled it. And then for like, the two days before it was raining. So, I turned off, because I want it to come back positive.

Gin Stephens: So, they have to fix it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I was like, “What can I do to like maximize mold?" So, been turning off all my air purifiers and was like, “Let the moisture come.” So, they came, we'll see. They did air tests, which are apparently the most valid form of testing.

Gin Stephens: I would like you to have no mold and then not have to do any mold remediation.

Melanie Avalon: Right. That would be ideal. But I mean, either way, I'll get it dealt with. So, yeah. I will just say, friends, if you at all are suspicious about mold, please check for it. I lived in a moldy apartment for two years. And I think it like-- if you're susceptible to it-- if it has an effect on your body, it can really have an effect on your body.

Gin Stephens: I think so.

Melanie Avalon: Well, on that deary note, shall we-- just want to jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yep, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off, we have a slight follow-up, something that we said we would get back to last time, which I feel like every time we do that we don't always get back to it, but we're getting back to it. So, yay. Emily had asked us about her shiftwork weight loss, intermittent fasting, like crazy sleep schedule, where she would sleep from 10:00 PM to 2:00 AM, do a paper route from 2:00 to 4:00 AM, and then sleep from 4:00 to 7:00 AM, which was a very crazy sleep schedule. We had talked about the fascinating-- Was it mid-Victorian people?

Gin Stephens: I think in general just it being like the-- I've just read articles that indicated that's how they lived. Medieval times, or I don't know, that was the natural way to be.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so they would go to sleep and then wake up and then go to sleep. So, I asked the resident sleep expert, Dr. Kirk Parsley, who I've had on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. I asked him about it, and he obviously knew everything about it. He said it was called dual sleep, and it occurred roughly 22 longitudinal above or below the equator. And it was because nights were 10 to 12 hours at night. The people would sleep in two halves of the night, and they would wake up in the middle to do activities and hang out while the kids were still asleep. So, that's different than today where we're only sleeping-- we're lucky if we're sleeping eight hours. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because I think we were contemplating that. We were like, “Oh, so maybe this is a good thing.” It's not an ideal situation. That situation would be if you were sleeping like-- if it was like a 12-hour night and you're waking up in the middle. I think our original answer still stands about that schedule.

Gin Stephens: Because they slept from dark to dark. That was the difference. Those people were sleeping from dark to dark and that was too much sleep.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, probably.

Gin Stephens: So, they would wake up in the middle and then have their second half of the--

Melanie Avalon: That makes sense.

Gin Stephens: But you know what, my body is still tuned to that. I swear, I could live that way because as soon as it starts to get dark, I want to go to bed. I don't care if that's 9:30 at night or 5:30 at night. If it's dark, I want to get into bed. I probably should start just doing that. Go to bed, wake up in the middle of the night, get up--

Melanie Avalon: [laughs]

Gin Stephens: --do some stuff, go back to bed. I think that might be my natural-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Let us know how that goes.

Gin Stephens: Might be my natural way of being.

Melanie Avalon: I might still be awake in that time when you wake up because you would go to bed-- so like when does it get dark? You would go to bed at like?

Gin Stephens: 5:00, if it's the wintertime.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so you would sleep from 5:00 to like?

Gin Stephens: 11:00.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and then you could wake up and then we could hang out.

Gin Stephens: And then, have my second night sleep.

Melanie Avalon: And then, we could both go back to bed at the same time.

Gin Stephens: I swear, I would probably feel great doing that.

Melanie Avalon: We could do the podcast then, in the middle of the night!

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'd have to have an earlier window, I'd have to shift it.

Melanie Avalon: So, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Coming to you from Gin's biphasic sleep!

Melanie Avalon: And my normal sleep and my normal awake. That's so funny. But sleep is huge. And I will do a quick plug for Dr. Parsley’s Sleep Remedy. They have an unflavored version of it that is fast friendly, and it basically has all of the substrates that your brain naturally needs to fall asleep. So, it's not a pharmaceutical, doesn't knock you out or affect your sleep quality. It just makes your brain naturally fall asleep. I think you can get it for 10% off at sleepremedy.com/melanieavalon.

Gin Stephens: And the version of it that I have is a capsule.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's a capsule. They have drinks as well. So, you can get it for 10% off at melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy with the coupon, MelanieAvalon. And then, yeah, they do have the drinks as well. And they're coming out with a kid's formulation soon. So, that's pretty exciting. But, yeah, sleep is super important. I feel I keep reading everywhere that, out of everything honestly, diet, lifestyle, exercise, sleep, sleep is probably the most important. It's hard to say one's more important than the other.

Gin Stephens: But sleep is so key. Like fasting is so good for us because it's healing, sleep is where, I don’t know it's where our brains are healing. Not sleeping is like eating all the time as far as the effects it has. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It's where so many key processes happen that keep you functional okay and alive, and everything important really seems to happen while you're sleeping.

Gin Stephens: I'm realizing the importance of keeping it so dark. Now, we're getting ready to take another step in the bedroom. I mentioned recently how stupid it was that I didn't realize that our shades needed to be and our curtains need to be drawn. And that made a huge difference. But now, the light from the little satellite TV--

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, if there's just one little light, it's huge.

Gin Stephens: Well, I recently took away the alarm clock light because we had the dimmest one you could get. I would like someone to invent-- I've just invented it. But someone else can invent it and then just send me one. A clock that goes dark. I want to have be able to look over and see what time it is only if it is after 5:30 in the morning. I don't want to roll over and see that it's 2:00 AM. I want it to automatically be dark.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if that exists, do you think it does?

Gin Stephens: I couldn't find one. I looked. I want it to automatically be dark. I've seen something like that for kids where they show a time when it's okay to get up, like you get a green light if it's okay to get up. But I want zero light, I don't want to roll over and see that it's 1:30 and then it's 3:00, and then it's 3:30.

Melanie Avalon: What if you do on that you've like-- it's always dark, but touching it makes it light up?

Gin Stephens: I don't want to touch anything. My phone does that. I can pick my phone up and look at the time. But I want it to just come on at 5:30 in the morning, then I can see its time and be completely dark after that. But now, since I turned the clock off, now, I'm noticing the satellite light is so bright. I think we're going to change our TV providers, so it's darker, and just go with a Hulu kind of streaming.

Melanie Avalon: Or you could just not have your TV in the bedroom.

Gin Stephens: Well, with that, my husband likes to watch TV before going to sleep at night. And I actually fall asleep with him watching TV, then he turns the TV off. So, that works really well. But he likes to wind down with that TV, and I fall right to sleep with the TV on while he's watching TV. And then, he turns it off.

Melanie Avalon: I mean I obviously have been saying from day one, like how important it is to be like all blackout. But I really, really, really realized the importance of that recently because when I had the surgery on my face, and I still can't wear-- so we're not sponsored by BLUblox today, but we talk about BLUblox blue light blocking glasses a lot. And they have a Sleep Remedy Mask, I think is what it's called. And it's the only mask I've had that completely blocks out like all light. It's incredible. And it doesn't touch your eyes. It's the most brilliant engineering.

Gin Stephens: It's like cups over your eyes. I cannot sleep with something around my head. I wake up in the middle of night and rip it off my head. I don't like hats. I don't like headbands. I don't like hair clothes. I can't wear my hair in a ponytail. I've got a head thing. I don't wear sunglasses. I can't wear anything on my face. I wear my blue blockers when watching TV, but I can only handle it for a short period of time.

Melanie Avalon: Well, for those who can handle it.

Gin Stephens: I'm a special snowflake.

Melanie Avalon: For those who can handle it. Yeah, it's what Gin said. There's no pressure on your eyes at all. It's soft and goes around your eyes and you can completely open your eyes when it's on, and it's completely blackout.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, the ones I had were like that, but I just couldn't have it on my head.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so I couldn't wear them for quite a while after the surgery. And literally the first day, I could wear it again, I slept through the night for the first time in a long time, at least since the surgery and I was like, "Wow, this is huge." I have the really intense hotel blackout curtains, but there is a tiny bit of light that comes in that I can't quite get rid of.

Gin Stephens: Or under the door of our bedroom. We accidentally left the lights on in the living room. I guess I thought Chad was turning them off, he thought I was. We just had the door closed. And I woke up in the middle of the night. I think I thought it was sunrise coming under the door. But it was the lights in the living room. It is huge, my brain really, yep, I need to have it dark. So, I'm working on it, changing my TV provider to make it darker. But getting rid of the alarm clock made a huge difference, completely, but then I could see the other lights, but sleep is really that important.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it is. So resources for listeners, Sleep Remedy. That's at melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy with the coupon, MelanieAvalon. And for BLUblox, if you like the blue light blocking glasses or the Sleep REMedy Mask, they're two completely different companies but they both use the word sleep and remedy in the title, that is at blublox.com and the coupon, IFPODCAST, gets you, I think 10-- it might be 15%, it's 10% or 15% off. For everything that you buy there, they donate need a pair of glasses to somebody in need, which is pretty nifty. So, shall we jump into our questions?

Gin Stephens: Yes. We have a question from Megan. And the subject is "Iced Coffee Versus Hot Coffee." “Hi, M&G.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's a new one.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. M for Melanie, G for Gin, in case people thought, they're like, “What's M&G?” Emoji.

Melanie Avalon: Like in the alphabet, elemenopee.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. There you go. “Love your work. I'm curious about whether you could offer some insight into black coffee served hot versus iced. I noticed that iced coffee, both cold brew and otherwise, makes me nauseous. I have tried making it myself and I've ordered it from multiple places. Don't worry, always black. But I really noticed I'm nauseous for it.” I can't say that word nauseous is really how you say it, but I always read it wrong. Naa-shus, nau-shus. “I have never had a problem with hot coffee. Thanks for your thoughts.”

Melanie Avalon: Well, Megan, thank you for your question. So, my initial thoughts are that warm things, they stimulate digestion. Basically, cold can be a shock to your system. And that's really the only thing I can think of. I know it's not much help.

Gin Stephens: Well, I had a theory and it's not true.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? What was your theory?

Gin Stephens: I feel nauseated if I have tea on an empty stomach. I've heard people say it's the tannins in the tea. And coffee has tannins as well. So, my theory was that perhaps iced coffee had more tannins than the hot, but that is not true. Cold brew has fewer tannins than hot brew. So, my theory was nothing. Yes, fewer tannins. And really, that makes sense because the tannins probably add to the bitterness and we know that cold brew takes out some of the bitterness. So now, my theory, I understand why I was wrong.

Melanie Avalon: So, you learned something.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I would just stick to the hot coffee. I don't know why.

Melanie Avalon: I guess the question would be, do other cold drinks make you nauseous? If any cold drink makes you nauseous, then it's the temperature, it's the cold. If they don't--

Gin Stephens: Then we got nothing.

Melanie Avalon: --then there's something-- and then some combination of the cold and the coffee.

Gin Stephens: I can think of one thing that is possible. I've talked before about how Nitro cold brew doesn't work for me because my brain perceives it as sweet. Maybe the cold brew is being perceived by your brain as sweet and you're having a blood sugar crash making you nauseous. I don't know. That's a bit of a stretch.

Melanie Avalon: I think it might involve the vagus nerve, probably. Megan, check out my interview that I did on the vagus nerve at melanieavalon.com/vagusnerve with Ami Brannon who's the creator of a company called Xen by Neuvana. They make a vagus nerve toning device, but the vagus nerve, it's also called the wandering nerve and it's this cranial nerve that extends to every single system in our body with the exception of our thyroid and adrenals, I believe. But it's super, super involved in digestion and it's interpreting things like temperature, food digestion, and it's attached directly to the brain. So, it's the reason that how anxiety or mood or all of this stuff so intensely affects our digestion. A lot of it goes back to that. And it's also involved in things like fainting, which is not different-- not the same thing as s being nauseated, but I would bet at the vagus nerve thing being activated by temperature, that would just be my guess.

Something you could try would be doing activities to "tone" your vagus nerve or tried the Zen by Neuvana device and see if that affects how you respond to the coffee if you're that-- if you're really invested. Fun times.

Gin Stephens: All right.

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All right, now back to the show.

The next question comes from Paula. The subject is "IF." Paula says, “I'm curious why intermittent fasting has very little impact on my weight. I do 16 hours' fast every day with calorie and carbohydrate restriction. It's not easy. I'm ravenous all the time.” She says, “I don't have energy and I feel depressed.” Thank you, Paula.

Gin Stephens: Well, there's two pieces of information I wish I knew. One, how long has she been doing this? That's so key because let's just forget about the part that I'm going to talk about in a minute, the calorie and carbohydrate restriction, pretend she didn't say that. And all she said was 16 hours is not working for her because she's not losing weight. It's not easy, she's hungry. If she's early in, then clearly, she's not fat adapted because that's how you feel before you're fat adapted. And 16 hours may not be enough fasting for people to become fat-adapted if they are eating a lot during their eight-hour eating window. So, you could do 16-hour fast every single day, never become fat-adapted and then, your fast is going to be harder. Because the reason my fast is easy, is because my body has flipped that metabolic switch. So, in Fast. Feast. Repeat., I really go into details about this. Look for that chapter in Fast. Feast. Repeat.

Now, Paula gives us a little bit of information there that she is also doing calorie and carbohydrate restriction. So, I think Paula is going through what would happen with someone on a low-calorie diet. She's not fasting long enough really with 16 hours to really get that metabolic boost from really tapping into fat stores efficiently. But then, she's not fueling up very well because she's doing calorie restriction during the feeding time. So, what I would recommend, Paula, first of all, I would maybe have a few refeed days, just no fasting, just eat. Because you should not be feeling ravenous, you should not be depressed, you should not have low energy. Those are all things-- being ravenous all the time, having no energy, feeling depressed, that's how the guys felt when they were going through the Minnesota Starvation Experiment when they were not well fueled. So, those are all key signs of overdieting. So, stop. Give yourself a week, two weeks, just don't count anything, don't fast, just eat, I don't know. You should want to get your body feeling it's feeling good again. Don't weigh yourself in that time.

Then, you might want to try-- maybe read the 28-Day FAST Start on Fast. Feast. Repeat and then ease yourself in. I would do the ease-in approach, take it gentle. You do not want to do calorie and carbohydrate restriction at the same time. I wouldn't recommend anybody do fasting and then also trying to do really low-calorie dieting at the same time, it's fast, feast, repeat. Not fast, low-calorie diet, repeat. We want our bodies to feel well fed, we want to be well nourished. Once you get past the adjustment phase, and you know your body is fat adapted, if you ever start feeling ravenous all the time, your energy is low and you're depressed, that's a sign that what you're doing is really, really wrong for your body. Also, carbohydrate restriction can lead to depression for some people. Carbohydrates, our brain serotonin, I read a book. Did you ever read Potatoes Not Prozac, Melanie? Have you ever heard of that book?

Melanie Avalon: I've heard of it. I haven't read it.

Gin Stephens: I might have mentioned it. I'm not sure. I can't remember the credentials of the person who wrote it. Maybe she was a psychiatrist. I can't remember, it's been a long time. She talked about having a hit of carbs, like a potato, at night before you go to bed and that really helped with mood. So, that could be a factor right there as well. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: You basically hit on all of it. I was zoning in on the fasting, the calorie, and the carb restriction. All of that at the same time is not the game plan to take, especially when you're first starting intermittent fasting.

Gin Stephens: But we don't know she might have been doing this a long time, in which case her body is really fighting back.

Melanie Avalon: True. Very true. Yeah, because it's so key. One of the things that makes intermittent fasting so magical is that when you have the feasting period, that's sending all of the signals to your body that make the fast in a way work even better because you need that feast period to send those signals to start the repair processes, start the growth and recovery, and make the body not feel it's in a state of perpetual starvation. So, then it's more willing in a way to enter the fasted state when you do fast, because it's not-- what's the word when anthropomorphizing? I'm giving--

Gin Stephens: Anthropomorphism.

Melanie Avalon: I'm doing that right now, even though it is your body, but maybe somebody is following who's listening to me right now. So, then your body enters the fast. If you don't have that feasting period, it's going to think that it's in a perpetual state of starvation. And so, the fast metabolism is going to be massively downregulated, you're going to feel starving, you're going to feel ravenous, it's really, really important to have that feasting period. I mentioned it last time, I'm reading Joel Greene's The Immunity Code, which is just blowing my mind, blowing my mind! But he talks a lot about this as well. I like Gin's idea about having some refeed days, and then reevaluating your whole plan about all this. Ironically, maybe fasting longer, but when the eating window--

Gin Stephens: Alternate daily fasting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Like a 36:12.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to suggest rather than start jumping into that, because I even get freaked out by that, and I've been fasting for a long time. And that's just me, I know some people do really well with it. I was saying, I feel like the first step would just be maybe fasting longer and not restricting calories in your window.

Gin Stephens: What do you mean by fasting longer? That's what I'm confused by.

Melanie Avalon: Instead of a 16-hour fast--

Gin Stephens: Oh, okay. I get it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so maybe doing a one meal a day, or feeling free to fast longer than 16 hours, so maybe fasting 18, 20 hours. But then, when you eat, no restriction, carb restriction maybe if those are the macros that your body does well on, but definitely not the calorie restriction.

Gin Stephens: And it really may not be. There's a common thought in many intermittent fasting communities that if you're not also doing low carb with fasting, you're doing it wrong, but that's not true. Both Melanie and I have shown with our own personal experience that we do great with plenty of carbs and the intermittent fasting. So, if you definitely don't do well with carbs, that's one thing, but if you just are avoiding carbs, because you think you should, that's a whole different thing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 100%.

Gin Stephens: I've got one of my moderator friends who was low carb for years and years and years and years and struggled, struggled, struggled. Before she was a moderator, she was just a person in the group and I gave her the advice, I'm like, “Well, then try carbs, experiment with carbs.” And she thought I was crazy. She's like, “Everybody knows low carb is 'better' for weight loss.” But she added carbs back, and then went on to get to her ideal weight very easily.

Melanie Avalon: 100%. Definitely check out the interview, and I'm not completely saying to do the diet they follow. But if you want more about the science of all of that, check out my interview that I did with Cyrus and Robbie who wrote Mastering Diabetes. It's a mind-blowing episode. It's at melanieavalon.com/masteringdiabetes. I know I told you, Gin, but I don't know if I said on the podcast that I'm bringing on Dr. Doug Graham, who wrote The 80/10/10 Diet. I told you that, right?

Gin Stephens: I can't remember.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited!

Gin Stephens: What are his 80/10/10?

Melanie Avalon: 80/10/10 is the macros that are 80% carbs, 10% protein, 10% fat.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I could not do that diet. I could not eat that way. No, no, no.

Melanie Avalon: And he's fruitarian, mostly.

Gin Stephens: I need fat. I need fat.

Melanie Avalon: I need protein. Actually, our next question is about this a little bit.

Gin Stephens: I need protein too, but less protein. I need adequate protein. Someone was asking about this today. I'm sure we'll get to that with the protein question, but my body lets me know when I need more protein.

Melanie Avalon: Me too.

Gin Stephens: And I really need starchy carbs. Yesterday, I opened my window with this veggie bowl, this harvest bowl, it was called from this company, I was trying their food, it was delicious. But I was so unsatisfied. It was a giant bowl of food. It was like Brussel sprouts and I don't even know and all of these great veggies, and then I was still starving. And then, I had a bowl of oatmeal and then I felt better. I've got to have starchy carbs.

Melanie Avalon: I do find starchy carbs really satiating, I just don't like the way they feel in my body. I don't feel well.

Gin Stephens: I feel fabulous after I eat starchy carbs. If I don't eat starchy carbs, I don't feel well, that is 100% true. That veggie bowl, it was a whole giant bowl of food, I ate the whole thing. And then, I was like, “I am still hungry.” So, I've got to have beans or something with grains, I have to. A potato.

Melanie Avalon: If I don't eat lots of protein, I don't feel full. But what I'm wondering-- so Dr. Doug Graham is pretty controversial, but reason I'm so excited about bringing him on is because I feel my show has been very--

Gin Stephens: Like keto, meat focused?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I mean, it's featured a lot of people in that world and I haven't had much on the flip side. I've had a few. But he's pretty much as far as you can go.

Gin Stephens: That's pretty extreme. 80/10/10 is very, very-- yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm so excited to bring him on!

Gin Stephens: I would never stop eating if I was trying to do that because I don't get the stop eating signal.

Melanie Avalon: There was a period of time where I was eating basically, really, really high fruit, which I'm still trying to get back to, but really, really high fruit, really high protein. I could have days on occasion where I did just fruit. I would do that occasionally for my one-meal day. When I would do that, the next day, my body would feel so like-- I don't know how to describe it, light and airy, and my eyes would be-- all inflammation will be gone. My eyes would be shining white. I just felt radiating. But I would be craving protein like none other that night. But I'm really on the fence. All the other research I've run the other side really, really seems to be in support of moderate or higher protein diets.

Gin Stephens: Well, the research on my body is, I need carbs, I need fat, and adequate protein. But my body tells me. Sometimes I'm like, “I don't want any meat. I don't want any meat. I'm just not going to have any today.” And then, other days, I'm like, “I really need to eat some meat today.”

Melanie Avalon: I crave meat so much. I'm actually pretty excited-- I haven't told you this yet, Gin, because I still have a lot of lingering things I'm trying to tackle health-wise and I got introduced to a doctor who is apparently the doctor to a lot of people in my sphere. All I've had so far is a brief consult intake with him, but I'm pretty excited because he's making me reevaluate a lot of stuff. He already said iron for example is never an iron issue, it's a copper issue. I was like, “What?” And he doesn't have any one dogma about any one thing. So, I'm pretty excited. We'll see how it goes. If it goes well, I'm going to bring him on the show as well. We had an intake. He doesn't like the whole biohacking concept or all of these different authors and books and ideas. So, I'm going to bring them on for an anti-biohacking episode to dismantle biohacking. I'm really excited.

Gin Stephens: To me, maybe I don't understand biohacking, okay, so tell me if I'm wrong. To me, biohacking is tweaking anything about what you do with your life or your body to maximize how you feel and your health, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And this is what it comes down to because I actually had this conversation with two different people and it was the exact same conversation and I had my idea and they had their idea of what it was, and they were very much anti-biohacking because of the definitions, and it's so interesting how semantics are involved in.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. Semantics are huge.

Melanie Avalon: I think that was the conclusion. I literally got in an argument-- I don't really get in arguments, but I got into sort of argument about it and at the end, we were just like, “Semantics.” We can't really go beyond this because my definition of biohacking is-- in our modern world using tools, devices, supplements, things that we-- because some people say fasting is biohacking or--

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Putting on your blue blockers.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think fasting is biohacking because that's just something we do.

Gin Stephens: No, I think it is. I consider it a biohack.

Melanie Avalon: I consider the biohacks things that are using-- like I just said, devices, supplements, things we would not naturally be-- living our normal life, we would not be able to do unless we consciously secured them and implemented them into our routine. And then by using them, they hack our environment, they hack our bodies to either potentially function better or perform better. So, I consider biohacks, things like blue light blocking glasses, because the non-biohacking form of that would be you just turn off the lights and go to bed. Or like Joovv red light, the non-biohack version would be go outside and see the red light, but even then, you can't get in the concentrated form.

Gin Stephens: Okay, intermittent fasting is a biohack, by your definition, let me explain because in the past, they weren't able to eat around the clock because food was not available around the clock. But now, food is available around the clock. So, we have to biohack by having time-restricted eating windows.

Melanie Avalon: But anybody can fast, and our bodies can fast, but you don't have to go buy something to fast.

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't think the biohack means you have to buy something.

Melanie Avalon: It's a thing that you go get and implement into your life that would make your body potentially better because I wouldn't consider following a low-carb diet biohacking. But I think if you consider fasting biohacking, you could consider that biohacking. But the bristling comes in, I guess, with the two conversations I've had with people who get very upset by it, they think it is pretentious because it's assuming that-- it was a few things, it's assuming that we know better than our bodies and we think that we can bring these devices or bring these things in and make our bodies do better than they would just naturally be able to do from life, which I was saying, “Well, you could extend that same argument to medicine and say medicine is us trying to do that.” That was the main idea, was that it was pretentious or thinking that we know better than our bodies.

Gin Stephens: Here's a definition I just found. I think this is a pretty good one. The attempt to manipulate your brain and body in order to optimize performance outside the realm of traditional medicine. See, that's why I think that intermittent fasting--

Melanie Avalon: Which, fasting is in traditional medicine, like--

Gin Stephens: Okay, I don't think that they're talking about ancient Chinese medicine or something. I think they're talking about go to the doc-in-the-box kind of medicine traditional. Go to your practitioner who's just practicing medicine like they have for the past 20 years. That definition of traditional medicine is not asking Aristotle or something. Anyway, I definitely think fasting is biohacking. I think that carnivore is a biohack and I think that 80/10/10 sounds like a biohack. All that does.

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting, though. I mean, a lot of people agree with you, because I'll do that poll a lot. I should do it now in my group, which everybody should join, IF Biohackers, speaking of, that's what it's called, IF Biohackers. I will often ask, “What's your favorite biohack?” And a lot of people say fasting. I wouldn't consider cold-- Okay, like cold exposure, I wouldn't consider going out--

Gin Stephens: That's a biohack. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Here's how I think about it. I wouldn't really consider like knowing, "Oh, if I go outside in the winter, it's going to be good for my body, it's going to activate sirtuins. It's going to have longevity-boosting benefits," can do all these things. I think just going out in the cold and experiencing that, I wouldn't consider that biohacking, but I would consider it biohacking if I buy a chest freezer, fill it with ice, and do an ice bath. Then, I would consider biohacking because I'm doing this, I'm creating this thing that is upgrading my--

Gin Stephens: But you could do that, absolutely, just like outside in the-- you don't need to buy something to do it.

Melanie Avalon: It's like a kid walking outside and--

Gin Stephens: I think the key for biohacking is that it's purposeful for a goal of your body. Like a kid who's outside playing in the snow doesn't know that there are benefits associated with that, but if you're like, “I'm going to go outside and get a lot of cold therapy because I'm hacking my body,” that is what by definition makes it biohacking. The purposeful pursuit of it, for the purpose of changing your body.

Melanie Avalon: But people do that following a diet, and I don't consider diets biohacking. Like paleo, I don't consider--

Gin Stephens: If you were doing a diet that you-- joined Weight Watchers or something, I wouldn't call that a biohack. But if you read about the science of calorie restriction, and the scientists who-- they eat like two almonds and one cashew, that calorie restriction is the biohack.

Melanie Avalon: Why? Why is one and not the other?

Gin Stephens: I really think the intent is the goal of it. I'm talking about Calorie Restriction, capital C, capital R, you know what I'm talking about, Melanie, we've talked about this before, that the science of calorie restriction for longevity because it's purposeful. You're like, “I am going to hack my body to live to be 120 by having this calorie restriction.” Versus somebody who's like, “I'm joining Weight Watchers because I want to lose weight.” That's totally different than the idea of doing calorie restriction for the longevity purpose and it's very intense. It's like more intense.

Melanie Avalon: So, here's a question. I have my Apollo Neuro device which I would hands down consider biohacking. It's one of my favorite devices on the planet. Listeners, if you want it, feel like I mentioned so many things this episode, but it's at melanieavalon.com/apollo, that's the interview. Melanieavalon.com/apolloneuro is to buy it and you get $50 off of that link. But it uses soundwave therapy. So, you put it on, and it activates a state in your body that is activated by human touch to have like a relaxing effect on the body. I definitely consider that biohacking. What if you go get a massage and you get it with the intent of stimulating human touch, so now is getting that massage biohacking?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, in that case, it would be.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. See, I would not consider that biohacking,

Gin Stephens: If you are attempting to manipulate your brain and body in order to optimize your performance-- If you're like, “Oh, I'm going to get a massage. I like that.” But if you're like, "I am going to get this special massage. I'm going to do this because of this, this, this,” I think it can be a biohack. I'm drinking a mug of hot water because I like it. But if I read something that said, “Having a mug of hot water does this, this, this for your body,” suddenly I'm using it as a biohack versus I'm just drinking hot water. I think it's the intent. I don't know, maybe people think I'm crazy. But drinking hot water just because I'm cold, it makes me happy is different than if Wim Hof said, “If you have a mug of hot water, it does this for your body,” and now, I'm purposefully adding that to my day for this biohack purpose.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm open to that.

Gin Stephens: Okay. [laughs] That's what I've always thought of. So, that's why intermittent fasting works for me. Grandma who just naturally ate that way, I don't think she was biohacking. She just naturally ate that way. Whereas those of us who are like, “I am doing intermittent fasting for health and longevity,” I think it becomes a biohack.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think one of the problems is just-- it goes back to semantics. There's not really one accepted definition.

Gin Stephens: Well, some people don't think that time-restricted eating is fasting. A lot of it is semantics. We can get too caught up in that. But anyway, so your doctor doesn't like the word biohacking.

Melanie Avalon: Oh yeah, no. But it was crazy because I did the intake call, which was like 30 minutes, and we literally talked an hour and a half. And at the end, I was like, “We should have recorded this. This could have been an episode.” I'm really excited though. Actually, I can say his name because he's been on shows, Dr. Anthony Beck. I was listening to him on Ben Greenfield recently.

Gin Stephens: Well, keep us posted.

Melanie Avalon: I shall.

Gin Stephens: All right. Flowing into Carolanne's question, "Determining adequate intake and IF/HGH," which would be human growth hormone. “After listening to Melanie's podcast with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon and your podcast.”

Melanie Avalon: I have not had a podcast with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. So, I don't know who she's referring to. I just want to interject that but go ahead.

Gin Stephens: “And your podcast of September 7th, an issue I've been pondering for quite a long time has come to a head. It's not simple to present. But I'll start with the question. How much protein does one need if one is intermittent fasting?”

Melanie Avalon: I bet it was Cynthia Thurlow.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Did she talk about protein?

Melanie Avalon: She did. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that's got to be it. “Assuming a fasting window of at least 16 hours, how much daily/weekly protein should we be eating? Another question goes along with this before I even get to the issue of the impact of intermittent fasting on adequate protein intake, and that is, how do we determine how much protein to get? If it is grams per pound of bodyweight, is it the whole body or lean body weight? Then, what does lean body weight mean? Is it muscle tissue alone? Or does it mean muscle and bone tissue? Muscle, bone, organ tissue or everything but fat tissue?” Wait, Carolanne, your question is making me crazy. I love you, but-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: This is a question that Melanie would ask.

Gin Stephens: Melanie loves this question. And I'm like, “Eat your food.”

Melanie Avalon: This is literally like me.

Gin Stephens: Eat your food, stop eating your food. Boom. Okay, sorry. All right, Carolanne. I love you anyway. All right. Then, to make it even harder, “How do we know what those weights are? And of course, outside of professional health methods of measuring our body weight, that seems to leave only a scale that is able to measure all of that. Which brings up another question, how accurate are those scales?

Now, to the issue of the impact of intermittent fasting on how much protein to consume, I often hear the great advice to eat to satiety each day, assuming a refeeding that does not limit calories in order to lose weight. And that statement seems to be an implicit belief that doing that will provide quite adequately for the body's needs. And that mainly seems to be as far as I understand it, due to the stimulation of growth hormone due mainly to autophagy.” And I also think I'm just going to interject here real quick, Carolanne, I wouldn't say it's the stimulation of human growth hormone due to autophagy but the recycling of protein due to autophagy. Is that what you think she's asking you, Melanie? The protein for your body's needs, that's because it's recycling it due to autophagy. She's saying stimulation of human growth hormone, that's the rebuilding phase. Autophagy is the breaking down phase.

Melanie Avalon: When you're fasting, human growth hormone is going up.

Gin Stephens: Right. But my point is that's not because of autophagy making human growth hormone go up. I think she's talking about the recycling of protein due to autophagy. Anyway, I'm going to keep going. That's where we have our protein needs met during the fast because our bodies are literally recycling it. The human growth hormone comes into play when you're rebuilding.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so the human growth hormone is stimulated, it's going up while you're fasting. So then, when you start eating, it's really high and then you're at a prime state for growth.

Gin Stephens: And your body has recycled all those proteins during the fast and now your body can use those too. So, it's not just the protein you're eating, is what I'm trying to get across here. Yeah. You don't get all your protein just from protein that you take in through eating. She continues, “It is an uncomfortable place to be in. For me, it's really important that I make sure I get adequate nourishment so that my adrenals and thyroid can heal. When I began intermittent fasting in July of 2018, I already knew my adrenals weren't producing enough energy for me and doing fasting more than 14 to 15 hours was not the thing to do. I didn't know then that it was too stressful for my body. After listening to Dr. Lyon--”

Melanie Avalon: It was definitely Cynthia Thurlow.

Gin Stephens: She's actually not a doctor. She's a nurse practitioner. “I really got to wondering and having a lot of anxiety over how much protein should I be getting.” I'm going to stop right there again, and I have to interject this because 100 years ago, nobody had anxiety about this. They just ate their food. It's so interesting how we're like-- the more we know, the more we're learning, the more anxious we become. If you went back in time and said to somebody, they would look at you like you're crazy, that we're worried about-- Anyway, I'm just going on. We have knowledge overload. All right.

"So, I live a quiet lifestyle, low demand, because that's what I need to do right now, to lessen the stress in my life. I know these aren't simple questions, but I greatly respect the thoroughness of your research and your approach to difficult issues. And just to add here, because it's already way too long, and what will one more sentence be? Thank you immensely for keeping your podcast free of politics. It's like an oasis of peace and calm and encouragement. And I treasure it and you guys. With highest and warmest regards, Carol." Yep. Carol, you will never hear us talk about politics. Never.

Melanie Avalon: Nope.

Gin Stephens: Nope. We've never even talked about politics. Melanie and I have never talked about politics. We could be the complete opposite. We'll never know, and we're not going to tell you.

Melanie Avalon: We wouldn't even know. That’s so funny.

Gin Stephens: Not going to tell you because that's personal. All right, and it's irrelevant.

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And now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you, Carolanne, for your question. Love it. Really appreciate it. And it flows perfectly with everything that we were talking about before so-- Oh, and yeah, it was definitely Cynthia Thurlow. And the reason-- I totally forgot. It's always interesting to see what resonates when I release an episode, like what part of the episode people really resonate with because for every episode, if you do join my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, there's an episode giveaway each time and to enter, all you do is comment on the post about the episode, something that you learned or what resonated with you. And when I released that episode with Cynthia, which was a few weeks ago, or maybe last week, everybody was like protein. I totally forgot that we talked about that because it was just a tiny bit of the whole conversation. But that's what really stuck out to people was because she was saying for women-- One of the reasons she advocates longer eating windows as she thinks for most women, it's almost near impossible to get enough protein.

My answer was, I'm definitely the exception, because it's shocking how much protein I eat in a one-meal-a-day situation. But, yeah, she was saying that for women, specifically, how important it was to get enough protein. As far as how much protein is enough, this is ironic-- I don't know. I was talking before about, one side of the camp of things people like Dr. Graham, fruitarians, the load protein camps, saying that all we need is like 10% of protein.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, there's actually a book called Proteinaholic that talks about that we're eating too much protein.

Melanie Avalon: I've also had James Clement on the show, and we talked about protein as well. I'm really, really fascinated by it because it is such a polarizing thing. On the one hand, we have people saying, “Oh, we're fine with 10%, that's actually ideal.” Then, on the other hand, we have people saying the complete opposite. Probably the episode I went deepest into protein would be the one I did with William Shewfelt and Ted Naiman. I think that's literally at melanieavalon.com/protein. So, people like Han[?], people like Robb Wolf, my recent episode with him, we talked about protein. They point out how direly important protein is, like a moderate, if not high protein intake for health, for our bodies, for satiety, for longevity.

Gin Stephens: Can I pop in a theory that I have?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: You know how we talk all the time about how we're all different when it comes to what foods work for us? I wonder if some of us are better at recycling protein, so we need to take in less. And so, we naturally gravitate towards eating less, and then we assume everyone should eat less, because that's how we feel great. Whereas the people like maybe, the people who feel best when they eat 90% protein, maybe their bodies aren't good at recycling protein, and they need to take in more.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I was going to ponder. So that and then I also wonder, though, how much of it is you and your genetics, your epigenetics. What are you thinking about is, reading this 80/10/10 book, and dancing around the communities and seeing what people say it's like, lot of people say that your body adapts. So, it starts working just fine on the lower protein intake. So, I don't know how much of it is genetic versus epigenetic from the diet that you're following for a certain period of time. All that said, I think there could be a case to be made for lower protein for longevity, especially while you're young. I'm not so much sure after you hit a certain age-- I think it's around 60 or so, I don't know the exact number, there's a point where low protein-- the relationship changes.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I've read that to you. I think Dr. Fung talks about that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and it's pretty well established. Once you reach a certain age, you need more protein.

Gin Stephens: I really believe our bodies are going to tell us. I know how I feel like if I'm one day, I'm craving more protein and I look back and I think, “Yeah, I didn't really have much protein in the past few days.” And then, I'm like, “Now, I'm going to have this big piece of chicken.”

Melanie Avalon: The thing I wonder is, I've been so high protein for so long, I'm like, “What if my body is just-- that's what it's accustomed to?” But to answer her specific questions. The grams?

Gin Stephens: Oh, don't ask me. I don't know any of those recommendations because I would never be able to follow them.

Melanie Avalon: So, the official dietary recommendations are 0.36 grams per pound.

Gin Stephens: And who's that recommendation coming from?

Melanie Avalon: The dietary reference intake. Yeah, 0.8 grams per kilogram. What I see most in the communities that I-- is communitize in, a word? No-- that I live in.

Gin Stephens: You commune in them. You commune in those communities. I just made that up. I don't know if that's right. But you commune with them.

Melanie Avalon: I like going by what Siim Land talks about just if I have to pick one person, and William Shewfelt and Ted Naiman’s book. I don't have that book with me right now. I'm just looking at Siim Land’s book and he advocates 0.6 to 0.8 grams per pound of lean body mass on rest days, and 0.8 to 1.2 grams on workout days. That is often what I see because that averages to around one gram per pound of lean body mass. So, I'm just going to throw that out there as something to consider. And so, what that would look like would be-- because she asked how do you know what your lean body mass is? You can get it measured. A lot of gyms have machines that will measure your-- they'll show you your composition of everything. And you don't have to worry about tissue, muscle, bone, organ tissue, it's going to show you fat, muscle, and that's what you need to know. There are the scales, I don't know how accurate they are. I read things all over the board about them. Do you have thoughts about the accuracy of those scales?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I've heard a lot of negatives about them because they work with bioimpedance. And a lot of it has to do with your body water and they all claim they're great, but they're really, I think, not all that great. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: What I would advocate just to be safe is you could just go for around, and I know this seems like a lot-- But if even though I talked about the low protein before, I think if you're not purposely trying a low-protein diet for that reason, I would err on the side of more protein. I don't really measure or count or anything, I just do what Gin was saying. I eat to satiety, but you could aim for like a gram per-- I would say even like per normal body weight, in that ballpark. Especially if you're trying to like lose weight, maintain weight, have satiety, things like that, which I don't know that she necessarily was asking about that. But if that is the case, protein has the highest thermogenic effect of any food, although I don't know if alcohol might have more but of food. Meaning, you burn calories, just processing it. It's very satiating like I said, and it does support your muscle.

There's even been studies, and I think we've talked about them before, they have found studies where they didn't change exercise protocols-- I'm not saying that you can just eat like tons of protein and gain muscle, but they have found that, that overeating protein can lead to more muscle growth, even without necessarily doing a workout to create that, which is pretty shocking. She says she has a lot of anxiety over wondering about the protein. I think it all goes back to what Gin said in the beginning, try not to have the anxiety part of it. The fact that you're trying to get enough protein, I think, is a good thing. I think the problem-- a lot of people get overly focused on fat or carbs, they're not even thinking about the protein, so I feel you're one step ahead with all of that.

And it sounds you are pretty intuitive with your eating window. You said that you found originally that fasting for more than 14 to 15 hours wasn't working for you and you did realize it was too stressful for your body. So, it sounds like you're really in tune with your body. I would encourage you to eat protein to satiety. Out of curiosity, maybe you could eat to satiety for a while and then retroactively look at how much you ate and see if it does sort of line up to that one gram per pound. I'm saying normal weight because the recommendation is technically less, but yeah. Gin, do you have other thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Well, I kind of have already said mine during the-- while I was reading it. I just never want to stress about macros, or what I'm eating and even-- I talked about this on the podcast when I was doing the PREDICT 3, and I had to enter exactly what I was eating into the app. I wasn't even trying to eat to targets, I just had to put it in. That was too much for me. I was like, “I don't know, what am I eating? I don't know how to put this in.” I don't want to count, track, manage, measure, worry, do a math problem, I don't want to do that. In fact, I refuse to do that, ever again. I'm just going to eat food that is delicious.

Even when I was experimenting-- Melanie and I've talked about this, I was experimenting with eating less fat, just to see how it felt after reading Mastering Diabetes, and seeing their recommendations matched what that one DNA analysis told me, I was like, “Well, I'm just going to try it and see.” Even then, I couldn't count, I just had to eyeball it. So, I just never want to count anything again. I just want to eat food until I'm satisfied. I genuinely believe that our bodies are not going to let us be deficient in protein without sending us craving for more protein. I think that's one of those things we have that, that signal. Because just listening to my body and knowing how it varies from day to day, I get that signal very, very easily. I'll be like, "Ooh, I'm going to add an egg on top of this. I just feel like I'm craving it." Actually, that sounds really good, I'm thinking about having an egg when I open my window. I love to have some days eggs on toast to open my window. You would not have eggs or toast, would you?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no. I would have the egg whites, and I might have egg yolk. I don't like having like them together. I might use the egg yolk as part of my supplement for a multivitamin-type thing with my food. Or I might have a lot of egg whites.

Gin Stephens: All right, I like a runny egg on top of toast. First, I put butter on the toast. Then, I put it in the toaster oven and toast it. And then, I fry up the little eggs till they're runny on the top. I'm really good at making fried eggs running on the top. Low and slow, that's the key. And then I get it all in there and let the egg run all over the toast, so it's drippy. Now I'm starving. I think I'm going to have that. What time is it? [laughs] But like I said, my body lets me know. So, I beg of you not to get all stressed out about that because that's not how we're meant to live.

Melanie Avalon: On the flipside, I do want to say though because I love everything you just said. And on top of that, that's a reframe I'm starting to do in my life, Gin.

Gin Stephens: What's that?

Melanie Avalon: Say somebody says something and you acknowledge to their point, and you're like that’s valid.

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: Not making the conjunction that follows, but. Because if you say but, then it's like saying, “Oh, that's valid, but.” So, you have to say and. Everything that you said, and.

Gin Stephens: But. [laughs] Now, I'm going to know that's what you mean though.

Melanie Avalon: No, no! [laughs]

Gin Stephens: It's okay to disagree. That's okay.

Melanie Avalon: No. That's the thing, though. That’s the reason I said this, just now is I agree. I do agree with what you said.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: And on top of that, I think there's some people, they do like tracking and measuring and I just want to say that if they do like it, I think that's okay, too.

Gin Stephens: Oh, definitely. If you'd love it and want to, yes. Oh, yeah. I'm not saying that you can't if you'd love it. But Carolanne sounds a little stressed out about it, almost it's making it worse. I'm going to weigh myself, but what weight do I use? And what scale should I be on? And how do I calculate my muscle mass? And I really think that it doesn't sound like something that's enjoyable. It sounds like something that's stressing you out.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly.

Gin Stephens: So, yeah, you're right though. If someone loves to do that, and they're biohacking through math of-- you would say that's not biohacking, but if that's what you want to do, and it feels good and you love doing it, then do that. But I don't. I'm never going to do it again. Never again. I whispered that into the microphone.

Melanie Avalon: Both are okay.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they are.

Melanie Avalon: In our nonpolitic world of ands.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: All-inclusive.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Any definitions of biohacking, welcome.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Do it or not. What's a biohack for me might not be one for you. I'm not getting in a chest freezer. But I might go outside without my coat to check the mail and think, “Look, I'm biohacking! I'm biohacking!” I got cold on purpose, right?

Melanie Avalon: I feel like a cold shower might be on the fence for biohacking.

Gin Stephens: Oh no, that's a biohack, I'm sorry. But I don't agree with that.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, I would consider it a biohack because it's like using technology to--

Gin Stephens: Exactly. See, that's a biohack. Speaking of which my upstairs bathroom, we can end on this note-- we have plumbing in the upstairs bathroom.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, congratulations.

Gin Stephens: The only thing we don't have now is like you could actually go up there and take a shower, brush your teeth, and use the bathroom. But what you can't do is have lighting, unfortunately. We're waiting on the electrician. In the meantime, we thought it would be a great idea to also have them redo all the faucets and fixtures in our master bath. So, they came on Thursday and I'm like, “This is great. They're going to be done.” Because they tore our bathroom over-- this is our master bath, they tore it apart a couple months ago because it was dripping. And then they had to cut out the part of the wall. I mean, it's dramatic. So, I haven't been able to use my master bathroom shower since, I don't know, July. Here it is September. I've been walking across the house to the other bathroom. So, they came on Thursday, and I was so excited. But, oh my Lord, the amount of plumbing they've needed to do to just to switch out the faucets on our tub and our shower and our two sinks. It's very elaborate. Plumbing is not easy. They're still not done. Two guys were here all day on Thursday. One guy was here half the day on Friday, and everything's still torn apart.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like plumbers are people that like-- there are few professions in this world that you're just so grateful for them. I'm just really grateful for plumbers.

Gin Stephens: I'm grateful for all the professions that do things I don't know how to do. Plumbers are one of them. But watching them do it is-- it's a lot of work. It's hard. But also, I don't know what's up with the plumbing industry, but if anyone's in the industry, y'all are ridiculous because here's what I'm talking about. Did you know the fixtures are not interchangeable? You just want to change things out, you can't. No, I can't just get a different brand shower handle. They have to cut the whole fitting out of the wall to replace it. Moral of the story is, don't buy fancy plumbing fixtures. Do not get fancy high-end crazy faucets because then when you need to get a new one because something's wrong with it, they're going to have to cut holes in your wall and replace the inside parts. Everything should just be universal. It's 2020. Hello.

Melanie Avalon: Well, on that note.

Gin Stephens: Don't you think it should be universal?

Melanie Avalon: I think they should be switch-outable universally, yes.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. At this point, it should not be that hard, that they should not have to cut the hole out of the wall in order to put in a new shower thing. Anyway, one day, we will have all the working bathrooms and I'm going to use them all and there will be a nice warm shower in all of them. No cold showers.

Melanie Avalon: If I'm ever a guest at your household, I'll take a cold shower.

Gin Stephens: You can take as cold of a shower you want to.

Melanie Avalon: I love my cold showers.

Gin Stephens: That is okay. I don't have a freezer for you, but we could fill my bathtub up with cold water. I got new faucets and they're beautiful. They just aren't attached yet. You can't actually put water in my tub because it's not attached. The faucets are lovely. They just don't work yet.

Melanie Avalon: Do you like baths?

Gin Stephens: I love baths. I'm a bath taker. I heard Oprah one time say-- this was in the 90s when her show was on every day, when she had the afternoon show on NBC or whatever it was. I watched it every day. And one time, someone asked her what her hobby was, and she said bathing and I'm like, “I get it. I get it.” Getting in the tub with a book, staying there for three hours, that's me.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe if it's an ice bath, yeah.

Gin Stephens: No, no. Hot. It's got to be hot.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been wonderful. For listeners, I feel like we talked about so many things. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode184. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the things that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. You can follow me, I'm @MelanieAvalon. Gin is @GinStephens, and I think that is it. Anything else from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think I said a lot of things but I'm waiting for the plumbing industry. Give me a call. We can have a chat.

Melanie Avalon: Let me know if that transpires.

Gin Stephens: Really though, my advice for people really is, keep it simple and pick a brand. The plumbers in Augusta, for whatever reason, they love Delta. Pick a brand and stick to it.

Melanie Avalon: You're like really my advice is for listeners to-- I was like, “Is it going to be a fasting thing? Or is it going to be about the plumbers?”

Gin Stephens: It's plumbing because, right now, I'm living it. Don't buy fancy plumbing fixtures!

Melanie Avalon: And don’t let mold be in your apartment.

Gin Stephens: Either one, they're both bad.

Melanie Avalon: This is true.

Gin Stephens: If you buy fancy plumbing fixtures and they leak, you're going to have mold, and then you can't switch them out because it's too hard.

Melanie Avalon: That's a problem. Now, I'm invested. Now, Melanie is invested. Okay.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. See, that was what was happening. Ours were dripping and you couldn't buy replacement parts because first of all, you couldn't tell what brand they were because they're so fancy. People that had our house before us, they were fancy people, and they bought fancy things. And so, we're like, “We're buying Delta, and they're going to work and if they don't, we'll just get a new one.” And the plumbers are like, thumbs up on that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm invested now.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Talk to you then.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 183 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody. I want to take a minute to talk about enzymes. Enzymes are the workhorses of digestion. They break your food down into usable macro and micronutrients. Many of us may lack digestive enzymes and that leads to digestive issues like bloating, indigestion, and gas. You're not what you eat, you're what you digest. We lose enzymes as we age. So, if you don't have enough enzymes, you might only be absorbing 40% of the foods you're eating. There are two big problems here. Most digestive enzymes are cheap and ineffective, and most do not have enough protease for digesting healthy high protein diets.

That's why I'm so excited to tell you about a new enzyme product called MassZymes. MassZymes is the most complete, most potent digestive enzyme around with over 102% more protease than the nearest competitor, and 300% to 500% more per serving than most popular brands. That's crucial because protein is the most complex macronutrient to break down. Left undigested, protein creates a variety of problems in the gut, from bloating to inflammation and beyond.

The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is excited to announce a special offer just for our listeners. We guarantee it's the best deal available on this product. With volume discounts combined with our custom 10% coupon code, IFPODCAST10, you can save up to 48% off select packages of MassZymes. That's an amazing value. This special deal is only available if you go to www.bioptimizers.com/ifpodcast. You won't find that deal on Amazon or even the company's own website. This deal is exclusively for podcast listeners, and it's legitimately for a limited time while supplies last.

The best part is if you don't feel how MassZymes transforms your digestion, you can get a no-questions-asked, moneyback return on your order. For the fastest shipping, go to bioptimizers.com/ifpodcast, and use coupon code, IFPODCAST10, to save up to 48% on MassZymes. That's B-I-O-P-T-I-M-Z-E-R-S dotcom slash IF podcast.

Melanie Avalon: And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that what you put on your skin gets direct access to your bloodstream? And in your body can do a lot of detrimental things. So, while you may be fasting clean, you may at the same time be infusing your body with endocrine disrupters, which can mess with your hormones, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight and even carcinogens.

In Europe, they've banned thousands of these compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup, and the US has banned less than 10. In fact, most conventional lipstick for example is high in lead, and the half-life of lead in the body can be up to 30 years. That means every time you put on some lipstick, you might be putting some lead into your bones, which might not leave for three decades. This is a big deal. Thankfully, there's an easy all-encompassing answer.

There's a company called Beautycounter, and they were founded on a mission to make skincare and makeup products that are safe for your skin. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to not burden your body and support your skin health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd like to learn more about safe beauty and also get a ton of amazing discounts and free things from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. Not sure which Beautycounter products to try? I also just made a whole series of online quizzes to match you to your perfect product. Those are at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. So, here's the fasting clean inside and out.

All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode #183 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm cold.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, isn't it wonderful?

Gin Stephens: No, I have on shoes, jeans, and long sleeves.

Melanie Avalon: I have on-- I don't even know what it's called. What's it called when the shirt is like-- it doesn't have shoulders, like when it's--?

Gin Stephens: I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Doesn't have straps?

Gin Stephens: Strapless?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. [laughs] I'm in a strapless shirt, and shorts. And nothing else.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Do you keep your heat really up high in your apartment?

Melanie Avalon: No, I keep it at 67.

Gin Stephens: Okay, well, I'm cold.

Melanie Avalon: During the day and 60 at night.

Gin Stephens: Oh my gosh. Yeah, my house has really cold floors. It's built on a slab, is built in '79. Our last house was built on crawlspace and so it was not like this. But this one, it's built on a slab and it just gets cold really fast when the weather changes.

Melanie Avalon: Fabulous!

Gin Stephens: No, not fabulous. All weekend is really when the weather changes, I don't know, Melanie, every year when fall comes, I'm surprised because it's like summer, summer, summer, I'm hot, hot, hot.

Melanie Avalon: It does happen really fast here.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And then like one minute, it's like 90, and then you wake up and you're like, “What's happening?” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It happens after a storm, I feel.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. We did have some rain and then you have all of a sudden-- I went to my niece's birthday party on Saturday, and I was wearing a sleeveless shirt and I was freezing the whole time. And then the next day, I was outside and I was hot the whole time. I can't get it right. It's the time of the year when you just don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, like the weather will change, goes back and forth, and back and forth. It changes its mind and then it just decides to stay. I'm hoping that’s this moment. I feel it is.

Gin Stephens: It definitely feels like fall. My feet are crying.

Melanie Avalon: Feels wonderful.

Gin Stephens: I don't like to have cold feet.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I texted my sister. I was like, “I can live here if it was like this all the time.” I guess I do live here but--

Gin Stephens: You could live here forever. Anything new going on with you?

Melanie Avalon: I think I've talked about this before. I'm reading The Immunity Code by Joel Greene. Did I talk about that? He's the one who says that when we lose fat, it actually damages the fat cells.

Gin Stephens: I think you did mention that. Yeah, that sounds familiar.

Melanie Avalon: This book is blowing my mind. I do not remember the last time I read a book about everything that we talk about, fasting, weight loss, all the stuff that blew my mind to the extent that this book is blowing my mind.

Gin Stephens: Now, does he talk about fasting?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. A lot.

Gin Stephens: Big fan, I would imagine.

Melanie Avalon: Yes and no.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: I need to finish the book. I actually have him booked to come on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, and this is actually the first time I think I'm going to email and say, “Can we plan to record for three hours and make it a two-part episode?” Because that's how mind-blowing and how much information there is.

Gin Stephens: Well, that sounds like a must read then. Why is he yes and no with fasting? Can you give us a little brief?

Melanie Avalon: I need to read more because I'm just now getting to that part. But what he said thus far, I'm like halfway through, it's a really long book, but it's a page-turner. Normally, it's long and I'm enjoying the books, but I have to use willpower and power through. This one, I'm just like, “Ah, it's just so good.” Basically, his premise is that fat loss in general, especially fat loss and regaining fat loss and regain, in the long term, it sets up the body for weight regain, because every time you lose weight and regain it, the fat cells actually become damaged and the extracellular matrix, like the membrane that surrounds the fat cells becomes more rigid and tight. A lot more to that, but something about how fasting too much for too long.

So, he's been doing everything before anybody knew about anything. He was talking about the gut microbiome like 20 years ago. He's had a website for a long time. He was doing one meal a day, I think, for quite a while for a long time. And he thinks that that had massive problems actually in the long term, but I need to finish to figure out why I don't know the nuance exactly of why because he does think the key to sustained weight loss is losing the weight and getting lean and staying lean. That's the key.

So, my question is for people who get lean and stay lean with one meal a day or fasting, is there a problem there? I don't know, because I haven't finished reading it. He thinks the health issues that we mostly have today are because when we gain fat, especially for losing and regaining, but in any case, when we gain fat, all of the immune cells-- so fat isn't just fat, it's also fat, stem cells, and immune cells. And as we age, and as we gain fat, our fat becomes more immune cells, less actual fat, and then our actual immune cells can be either anti-inflammatory, he calls them like the Blue Team, or inflammatory which he calls the Red Team. And he thinks aging is basically our immune cell population shifting to more of the inflammatory Red Team. And that's exacerbated a lot by weight gain and inflammatory fat, like cytokines being released from fat and infiltrating our organs in our body.

Gin Stephens: So, the yo-yo is really bad, he's saying.

Melanie Avalon: Yo-yo is really bad. That's my takeaway.

Gin Stephens: Well, that makes me happy because I used to live in the yo-yo, and I haven't been on the yo-yo since 2014. Yay!

Melanie Avalon: He even talks about how you could be obese and healthy if the nature of the fat is it's not inflammatory fat. If it's healthy young fat in a way, that's healthier than being lean and having your fat cells actually broken and damaged and marked by inflammatory immune cells.

Gin Stephens: And for listeners, we're not saying don't try to lose weight. It's not the takeaway message here. Oh, my gosh, I should just state it, no, no.

Melanie Avalon: Well, because the majority of people are-- I mean, I don't know this as a stat. But in our modern world, it's often likely that if you are overweight, it's probably not the super healthy form of being overweight. It's probably more inflammatory. What his book is about is how to lose weight because that is the healthy thing, but how to lose it and stay there and not have all this cascade effect of weight regain.

Gin Stephens: Right. It does make sense that that would not be good for you.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's blowing my mind. I didn't realize there are all these studies on fat cell matrices and what happens to them. It's just really fascinating. So, to be continued.

Gin Stephens: All right, well, that sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited to see what he says about fasting more. And he has all these hacks-- I just thought about because we're talking about the cold. One of his hacks is how to burn stubborn fat. And it's like you put menthol on the area, I don't know the exact steps, but it's like you put menthol on the area, and then you ice it for 15 to 20 minutes, and then you take some niacin or I don’t know if it was niacin. It was some supplement, and then you go to bed. And it will preferentially burn off that area.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: It's literally very specific things like that. It's mind blowing.

Gin Stephens: Hmm, okay, I'm skeptical of that one.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: I know, that was out of context. But if you read the whole thing--

Gin Stephens: All right, everybody is going to be going out and putting some menthol on their saddlebags trot out, let's say.

Melanie Avalon: It makes sense, though, what we know about cold and everything. The other update is, I interviewed Siim Land yesterday again.

Gin Stephens: How was that?

Melanie Avalon: It was really good. He's into all the things. Talking to him, I just felt like I'm talking to myself.

Gin Stephens: That's funny. I love it though because you know I don't do all the things. I do intermittent fasting. I do a thing here and there. That's it.

Melanie Avalon: And it works. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I eat the food.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. Actually, yeah-- this is so specific. The first thing he and Joel Greene's book-- because he has all these hacks and things you're supposed to do and-- Oh, apparently, it's all about you have to do them in order. That's like really, really important. Otherwise, everything will go wrong. The very first thing is, it's specific, you eat apple skins in the morning.

Gin Stephens: Yes, see, that's already too hard for me.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it gets better. Then, you do that for a certain amount of time, then you eat apple skins plus, I think, HMOs. You have to get like baby formula or something-- I don't know, it's very specific. It's to get more Akkermansia bacteria in your gut lining.

Gin Stephens: That's one of those things that I would not be doing. [laughs] No, thank you. I don't even want to write down what I'm eating and put it in an app, much less eat what you're telling me to eat.

Melanie Avalon: Much less go get some apples and peel it and eat the skins at a certain time.

Gin Stephens: I mean I might like some apple skin, but I learned from my muffin-- the PREDICT 3, that I wanted to put butter and jelly on my muffin, but I couldn't. Peanut butter, that would have been delicious, though. Anyway. Good times.

Melanie Avalon: Good times.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's funny.

Melanie Avalon: Well, anything else?

Gin Stephens: No, that’s it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off, we have some feedback from Debbie. The subject is "Terminology." And Deb says, “Good morning, ladies, I enjoy listening and have been IFing since May 20th. I am down almost 20 pounds and about to drop another jeans size for a total of two. And I thank you for the wealth of helpful information that has helped me on this journey. I'm currently listening to Episode 179, and I specifically want to address when you talked about how to discuss IF with kids who won't really understand it, or actually anyone who questions you about it. And I think I have a possible solution for kids, the doubters, naysayers, etc.

For whatever reason, the simple word 'fasting' has such a negative connotation to it for a lot of people. I wonder if just changing the words around might help. For instance, the next time I get a question about what I am doing or how I have lost weight, I plan to simply say, ‘I started eating intermittently instead of gorging on so much food in one day, and I really feel much better,’ instead of telling them how I do intermittent fasting. Maybe if we put the emphasis on how it has improved our health and the way we feel, which is why I personally began doing it, we can change the way people react to it.

While I don't really feel the need to explain myself to people because it's my life, my body, it's no one's place to criticize, and you can't argue with positive results, but in order to avoid hearing the negative feedback, and getting all worked up over it, I think this is my new way to answer the questions. We'll see how it goes.” Before I read her next thing, Gin, do you have thoughts on that?

Gin Stephens: Well, in Fast. Feast. Repeat., I talked about-- the actual scientific terminology, if you have a daily eating window is time-restricted eating. And that's one way you can explain it without using the word 'fasting.' We use time-restricted eating, or I do actually like the words intermittent eating. That's what we're doing. We intermittently eat, we intermittently fast. But these days, I'm not so worried. Here's a funny story, Melanie, I never told you this. When I was talking to our shared literary agent, we were going to start pitching Fast. Feast. Repeat. So, we're talking, this was in, okay, what year is it? When did this-- When was this conversation? It was over a year before it came out. So, this was in early 2019. We were talking. And she actually said, “Instead of the words 'intermittent fasting,' should we use other words?” And I said, “No, because that's the wording that's already out there.” And she's like, “Okay, got it.” But the wording is out there. So, I've actually heard scientists say we shouldn't call it intermittent fasting. Some scientists really don't like when time-restricted eating, the daily eating window approach, is referred to as intermittent fasting. They think you should only use intermittent fasting to describe an alternate daily fasting protocol or extended fasting even. They don't think that the daily eating window approach qualifies as intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon: And a lot of the figures in the industry, like Peter Attia, definitely thinks that, and a lot of other people as well.

Gin Stephens: But I didn't name it, Melanie didn't name it. This is out there. It's the jargon. We're not going to be able to change what the world calls it, unfortunately. But when you're explaining it to somebody like a kid, I would not tell a kid, “I'm fasting.” I wouldn't say that to a kid. I would just say, “I'm not eating right now.” That's enough. That's all they need to know. I'm gonna eat later. If adults start quizzing me on it, and really, they don't, you just say, “No, thank you.” And they usually move along. Unless they're like, super-- maybe a family member might want to know more, but another adult, you really don't even need to tell them. Just, “No, thank you,” is enough, they don't need to know when I'm eating, what I'm eating, if I eat before, if I'm going to eat later. So, you really don't even need to mention it. Just say, “I'm not eating right now.” But time-restricted eating is great terminology. If you would like to use that instead of saying fasting, actually you've got scientists on your side who think that's probably a better wording than intermittent fasting. But as I said, that cat's out of the bag. Any plan where you're having periods of fasting and periods of eating is now under the general umbrella 'intermittent fasting.'

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 100%, because I think I had a list in What When Wine of how to talk to people about it and it was a lot of those points. It was basically-- you can also keep it short and simple. You don't have to feel the need to go into a lot of detail.

Gin Stephens: You really don't. And you could just say, “Hey, I read this book, What When Wine.” Or, “I read this book, Fast. Feast. Repeat.” Or, “I read Delay, Don't Deny.” And if you're interested in learning more, read that. Those authors explain it better than I could. Just tell somebody that and let them go read it if they really want to know more.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I like the way she said, eating intermittently.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I like that too.

Melanie Avalon: Have you heard of Alan Goldhamer? TrueNorth Health Center?

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. That's extended fasting.

Melanie Avalon: I'll put it on the Himalaya podcast app, Intermittent Fasting podcast stuff we like. I have a playlist there. But I've been listening to an interview with him with Ritual. It's pretty new, it was like a month ago, August 24th. That's really all I was going to say, was that-- But it's all about fasting and he was talking about the difference between when they first started the center because I don't know when that center started, but it was quite a while ago. I guess, just the difference between when they first started it and compared to now and the acceptance around fasting.

Gin Stephens: I do think it's silly, because-- let's say you're going to have bloodwork done and your doctor says, “It's fasted bloodwork.” They don't make you fast for two days. You don't eat after midnight, you wake up in the morning like eight hours later, they call that fasted. I think people get all crazy about it. That is fasting. So, we are extending that fast. Those of us that do the daily eating window approach, we are having a longer fasting period.

Melanie Avalon: We're just breaking the fast, breakfast. It's just a little bit later.

Gin Stephens: Exactly.

Melanie Avalon: So, the rest of Deb's email, she says, “One last note on this episode, you both used the term 'Debbie Downer' a lot, and always apologize to anyone named Debbie,” which is her. “And I always chuckle a little when I hear that. From now on, we can just say, don't be a downer? Of course, I am kidding a little when I say this, but just a suggestion.” She says, “Thank you and keep the awesome info and studies coming. I always learn something new from each episode.”

Gin Stephens: Oh, and she said "Sincerely, Debbie (not a downer)." [laughs] I get it, Debbie, I'm sorry. I have a friend whose name is Karen, and that's a name that gets a lot of jokes. Like, “Don't be a Karen.” Sorry, all the Karens out there. I'm not saying it, I didn't make it up. I'm just saying Karens also fall into this situation. So, I'm sorry that your name is got that connotation. We'll try to do better to not say that. Although my very favorite skit, and I'm sure Debbie doesn't like it, and I probably wouldn't if my name was Debbie, or I would just to find the humor in it, The Debbie Downer from Saturday Night Live.

Melanie Avalon: I thought you're going to say that.

Gin Stephens: Have you seen those?

Melanie Avalon: Actually, no, but I was like, it's going to be a Saturday Night Live skit.

Gin Stephens: And if you want to call don't be a downer, that'd be fine, but they are just really hilarious. Those skits, they're some of my favorite. It's like the family around the Thanksgiving table and they're like, “Everyone say what you're thankful for.” She's like, “I'm thankful I didn't get salmonella this year like my neighbor did.” Womp-Womp! Anyway, that's my favorite Saturday Night Live skit.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I missed out on Saturday Night Live. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I haven't watched it for a while. But there were some eras that were better than others. But all through high school in the 80s, we were watching it. It was the Eddie Murphy years. Those were so good. He was fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know why I feel like I never tapped into that. Maybe because I didn't really watch that much TV after a certain point, like when I would have been watching it.

Gin Stephens: We all watched it. Times were different back then there, too, because we only had-- and we didn't even have cable. I lived in the mountains. We didn't have cable television. There was no cable. There was no satellite. I don't know if it existed. But we had three channels, and if you could tune them in--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Well, four, if you count PBS. We had ABC, NBC, CBS, and if you could get PBS, that was lucky. And we had a rotor and we had to turn it and it had like an antenna on the top of the roof that had to turn based on-- if you were watching NBC and you wanted to switch to ABC, you had to turn the rotor and point it in a different direction. I'm telling you, you had to really want to change the channel. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Wow.

Gin Stephens: So, that's how old I am. It was rural Virginia, we were way out in the country. Everyone watched those things. It wasn't like you had 47 million options that you could watch. No, we all watched Saturday Night Live. We all watched Wonder Woman on whatever night that came on. We all watched the same things because that's all there was, such a different time. Anyway, thank you, Debbie, for that feedback.

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All right, now back to the show.

Gin Stephens: We're ready to move on to our first question.

Melanie Avalon: I think so. We actually have two questions tapping into a similar subject. Ashley, subject is "Fall Candles." She says, “Hi Gin and Melanie. First, I want to thank you for the podcast. I read the books and love them. But hearing from you weekly keeps me motivated. This might have been a question on an earlier episode, so I apologize if it's repetitive, but I wanted to ask about scented candles, specifically fall candles. I mostly do 20:4, started this past June with a down day on Thursdays and an up day on Fridays, just to switch things up. I've had a lot of success with this format. Thursdays are always a little bit challenging, but I don't usually get hungry until around 3:00 in the afternoon, so I am able to pull through. Okay, getting to the question. I am a sucker for fall-scented candles. Fall is the only season when I like candles that smell like food. I just ordered a pumpkin spice candle and another one that smells like pecan waffles.” Do you say pecan or pee-can?

Gin Stephens: Well, I say pee-can because that’s the South Carolina way to say it. Although I'm sure there's people in South Carolina who don't say it that way. But, yeah, pee-can is how we said it.

Melanie Avalon: So, those waffles. “I was having my down day last Thursday and I woke up early in the morning and lit the candle to boost my mood while working from home. Immediately, I was starving. I blew out the candle and a couple of hours later, I felt better. I pushed through it and I didn't get anything to eat. So, what I'm wondering is did the candle actually break my fast as in spiking insulin, or maybe just triggered my appetite? I can push through cravings, but I will definitely stop lighting the candles if it's defeating the purpose of my fast. Thank you so much. And I hope you know how much good you're doing for this community. I was not a very big girl to begin with, but I've always struggled to lose that last 10 to 15 pounds until reading your books. I'm confident for the first time ever. So, thank you for changing my life.”

We also have a question from Maggie. And the subject is "Going Overboard, Worried About Scented Candles and Lotions." And Maggie says, “Hi, I'm working my way through the first episodes of your podcast, love it. During my first week of IF, I tend to be the crazy dieter that follows every rule with no cheating. I'm not viewing this as a diet, but that mentality may be creeping in because I'm concerned that burning a food-scented candle might cause insulin release and break my fast. I'm a huge candle person and collector who always has one burning. I tend to love bakery and foodie scents. I'm nervous to burn them during my fasted period. I also own a lot of sweet-smelling body lotions, which I'm afraid to use. How crazy am I being? Can artificial scents such as these trigger insulin? Should I follow the rule of if you're not sure, just say no. Thanks, Maggie.”

Gin Stephens: Okay, so here's the thing. My rule of thumb is I don't want you to worry about something you can't control, like if you're walking through the mall and you’d smell Cinnabon and you're freaking out like you have to wear clothes put on your nose like, oh my gosh, I'm “breaking the fast.” I don't want you to live in fear. That being said, we can control whether we're burning food-scented candles or putting on body lotions that make our bodies think that food isn't coming. And I really hate to even say this but, yes, we do have scientific studies that show insulin response to the sight and smell of food. I'm looking at one right here, it's a study, “Peripheral insulin in response to the sight and smell of food.” This is an old study, this is from 1980. But they looked at 25 obese women and 23, they call them “reference women,” to find out what happened, and they did have an insulin response to the presentation, the smell of food. It's because when we smell that food smell-- this is the explanation, I'm going to read this quote, “is the parasympathetic nervous system triggers salivation and increases insulin production in response to the expectation that glucose will be entering the bloodstream.” And that was actually from a different article. But that's a direct quote from somebody.

And in the study that I mentioned before about they compared the obese women with the “reference women,” the insulin response was higher in the obese women. Is that fair? No. But it shows to me that if you are someone who is obese or has been overweight for a while, and you're really trying to lose weight, you may have a larger insulin response to that delicious pumpkin spice candle than someone who is not. And so, it sounds nuts to say, maybe don't burn that pumpkin spice candle while you're trying to lose weight, but the science actually is there. And I'm sorry to report that because that does sound-- for someone like me, who likes to keep things simple, I don't want to worry about a lot of things, I don't want to say be careful with your candle because it sounds nuts. But I think that Ashley already knew that that candle bothered her because she was starving and so, the insulin response that could happen. So, anyway, what do you say to that, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, pretty much the same page, and I also looked up a lot of studies, and I learned some really fascinating things I didn't know. Do you know where the highest density of central insulin receptors are located and the highest insulin concentration?

Gin Stephens: I do not.

Melanie Avalon: On the olfactory bulb.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that's where the smells are.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, apparently, the connection between our appetite, insulin, and smells is really, really important. When we think about it, it's almost shocking, something I recently experienced myself how much our sense of smell relates to our taste because as you know, I recently had my deviated septum fixed. I couldn't smell through my nose for a week. I couldn't taste food. One of the Q&As is like, “When will I be able to taste food again?" And one of the other things I learned researching this was that apparently, the way that our nose-- how we smell it. Initially, the first phase is smelling it in the air, so like the candle or smelling a food. But then, the second phase is when we actually eat it and then it releases smells that go up through into our nose, and that's the second phase. But what's really interesting is that when we're fasted, we tend to have a higher sensitivity to smells. And then, when you eat, when you're satiated, our perception of smells goes down. It's not quite as acute. So, if you're smelling a candle in the fasted state, it's probably going to have much more of a stimulating effect and--

Gin Stephens: Can I interrupt you for a second? Am I right to then-- from what you just said, when it's actually in your mouth and you're “smelling it from your mouth through your nose,” that way, it's actually magnified? Is that what you're saying?

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm saying when you actually eat it and break it down, the most potent smell effect is from eating it.

Gin Stephens: From inside your mouth, okay. I'm just trying to distinguish, so an exterior smell is different than the taste/smell. So, it's more pronounced when it goes in the mouth.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. But what's interesting is I was reading one article, and it was analyzing the work of like Pavlov's dogs. And it was talking about how he didn't really analyze smell specifically, because in his work, he would basically tempt dogs with things they wanted and measure their salivation and how their bodies were responding to it. But this was really interesting. If the food was just briefly put in the dog's mouth, it didn't have that big of an effect. But if they were tempted, so they could smell the food for like five minutes, that had a way bigger effect on their gastric acids being released.

Gin Stephens: They were anticipating it. So, that's interesting. I wonder then, this is just me wondering, I don't know if there're studies about this or not. When I'm preparing food for my family, but I know I'm not going to eat it, I have no anticipation that I'm going to eat this food. I have no like-- I don't get all hungry and worked up over it. But maybe if I were planning to eat it, that anticipation would play a role.

Melanie Avalon: I think so.

Gin Stephens: Because I can handle food and not feel starving and not feel like I need to eat it. But then, when you are fixing it, you're getting ready to eat it. It's that different kind of like, “Ooh, I'm going to eat this.” So, the anticipatory period is important.

Melanie Avalon: It's super important. It's important because it preps your body to digest it. Actually, sorry, this is a really quick tangent. Did I talk about that really fascinating study from Paul Saladino’s book about vegetarian people seeing meat?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, this blew my mind, and this kind of speaks to what you were just talking about. So, they've done studies on so-- they can look at like, I forget what it's called electric something potential, like seeing what part of your brain is lighting up to seeing certain stimuli. And when they show meat to omnivores, I don't know if in the study if they were like fasted, I bet they probably were. So, omnivores that see meat, they experience desire consciously and subconsciously, so another part of their brain. I don't who it is, vegans or vegetarians, but if they show them meat, they don't experience conscious desire for it but the subconscious part of their brain, still lights up, which I thought was really fascinating. Paul Saladino was using it as an argument that we're naturally wired to desire meat.

Gin Stephens: Naturally omnivores.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But I just found that really fascinating. The reason I was thinking about it was, I don't know what the implications are if you're constantly telling yourself I'm not eating this now, does that override? I don't know. I'm just theorizing. I'm just pontificating. There's a slight nuance and I almost don't want to throw in this nuance because it will confuse people. Before I say that, this is really similar to what Gin just said, from her study. I actually thought for a second that we were looking at the same study, but this is different.

One of the ones I read said that sensory inputs are well known to influence digestive processes in the anticipatory or cephalic phase, sensory perception of food drives the secretion of gastric juices in preparation for food intake via parasympathetic control through the vagus nerve. So, similar to what you just said. The slight caveat is another study was looking at it and it said that the smell of food induces salivation and release of gastric acid and insulin, conversely sustained odor exposure may induce satiation.

Gin Stephens: So, it stops after a while. If you're like working at a bakery, don't stress out over it.

Melanie Avalon: I thought this is going to freak people out hearing that, but actually to this point--

Gin Stephens: No, I think it's good. Actually, I'm glad you said that because it doesn't just keep going and going and going. Also, I think our bodies just turn off sensory things that just go for a long, long time.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I would believe it.

Gin Stephens: They stopped responding. Well, we know that with sound, you stop hearing it after a while. I mean you really hear it, but you stop noticing it. The same with the smells, that sort of thing. I think it's different, like you said, if it actually is coming in your mouth, like I wouldn't lick it. I wouldn't lick a cookie repeatedly.

Melanie Avalon: It says that acute exposure, so temporary exposure to attractive vinegar odor. I don't know what they were testing. I don't know when vinegar odor is attractive.

Gin Stephens: I love vinegar odor.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Oh, wait, like the salt lick vinegar?

Gin Stephens: I love all vinegar odor. Did you ever color easter eggs with those kits that you had to put it? Love it. I love that smell.

Melanie Avalon: Of course, you do.

Gin Stephens: I bet you don't like salt and vinegar potato chips.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know what those tastes like.

Gin Stephens: Like putting vinegar on your fries?

Melanie Avalon: Well, I never liked vinegar, so I never put them on.

Gin Stephens: Okay, malt vinegar on fries, amazing. Yeah, I like vinegar.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. This is so funny because one of the only things I probably didn't like about like Easter was that awful smell of--

Gin Stephens: I would just sit there and sniff it, like on purpose. [laughs] But are we surprised?

Melanie Avalon: No. That's so funny. So, maybe they were. Acute exposure to attractive vinegar odor, which Gin knows all about, triggers a rapid and transient increase in circulating glucose, a rapid upregulation of genes encoding the glucagon, like hormone adipokinetic hormone, for insulin like peptides and some target genes. And then, it says sustained exposure to food odors, however, decreases food intake. So, yes, if you're working at a bakery or you're working at the scented candle Bath & Body Works, it's okay. You'll be okay.

Gin Stephens: It'll happen. And then if you keep it going, you'll get used to it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it says food odor can induce a transient anticipatory endocrine response. So, unless you're anticipating it for your five-hour shift or eight-hour shift-- I don't know how long shifts are. But, yeah.

Gin Stephens: I don't burn scented candles during my fast, but then again, I don't burn scented candles ever because I don't like really strong smelly things.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't like any smells, please.

Gin Stephens: I did get some, that Mrs. Meyer's Clean Day. I love their-- Okay, there's some smells that I like.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, here's the teller because there's like one natural smell, pretty much I don't really like the smell of the world that much but there is one smell I love.

Gin Stephens: Is it lavender?

Melanie Avalon: I don't like lavender.

Gin Stephens: I like lavender.

Melanie Avalon: It gives me a headache.

Gin Stephens: Is it vanilla?

Melanie Avalon: I like vanilla.

Gin Stephens: I love vanilla.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. Yay! Trees.

Gin Stephens: Oh, you like tree?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, like pine.

Gin Stephens: But you don't like pine-scented stuff?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I don't really like scented anything, but I like pine.

Gin Stephens: Like a real pine tree?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, me too. I like that too.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, we can meet up in a pine forest with vanilla.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I'll go to a pine forest.

Melanie Avalon: A vanilla-scented pine forest would smell wonderful.

Gin Stephens: I think you're right. Sounds like Christmas.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Oh, it does.

Gin Stephens: Which will be here before we know it.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: That really is true. I can't wait to decorate for Christmas.

Melanie Avalon: I love Christmas. So, body products. I'm assuming we would not encourage having food-smelling body products. And, on top of that, if you haven't considered it, I would encourage not putting on these scented body lotions anyway, because I've talked about this a lot before, but we're putting these onto our skin, those compounds are often endocrine disruptors and there are ones called obesogens often found in these skincare products and they can actually affect your fat cells to encourage your body to store and gain weight.

Gin Stephens: Although I love the smell of the Beautycounter lotion.

Melanie Avalon: Which does not smell like food.

Gin Stephens: Well, is it a citrusy kind of thing?

Melanie Avalon: There's a lot of citrus. It's all natural smells, but it's like, yeah, like citrus and stuff like that. A lot of citrus represented.

Gin Stephens: I guess here's what I would say to both Maggie and to Ashley. I would say this. If you're using anything like a lotion or a candle, and you find that it makes you shaky or nauseated, then that is not working for you. But one little stomach growl and then going about your day, you're probably fine, right? If it makes you shaky or nauseous, don't use it. But other than that, go by how you feel, if it makes you starving, starving, starving, don't use it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, pretty much.

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All right, now back to the show.

Gin Stephens: All right, let's move on. We have a question from Barbora. And the subject is "The Perfect Pair." Barbora says, “Hi, lovely ladies, I know you hear this a lot, but I really enjoy listening to your podcast. I drive a lot for work, and your conversations are part of my weekly journeys. IF has changed my life in more ways than one. I have Crohn's disease and stumbled across intermittent fasting through my consultant. I didn't do it right the first time until I discovered your podcast and learned all about clean fasting through all of Gin's books. I am now on an amazing route to a good health lifestyle. IF has helped me with my symptoms, and I am deep diving into nutrition and holistic approaches. I fast clean, I'm starting to eat better. I'm listening to my body. Anyway, thank you, Gin for being the voice of reason. And thank you, Melanie, for being you. You talk as fast as you think, and that is me all over. So, I feel like I know you really well. I love both of your other podcasts and always look forward to new releases. I would love to know how you two actually met and came up with the IF podcast idea and how you've kept it going so great.

Last but not least, I have now got my mum, couple of friends, my hairdresser, and colleagues at work all doing IF, and I've become their “unofficial coach,” passing down the knowledge I learned from you both. Yes, they have DDD or FFR books too, Gin. Much love to you both. And thank you, Barbara, from the UK.” And notice how I said mum instead of mom because that's how she spelled it. And it was the UK spelling.

Melanie Avalon: She also spells her name, Barb, is that how they spell Barbara in the UK?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. There's lots of different ways. I was a schoolteacher as you know, for 28 years, there's a million ways to spell every single name that you could possibly have. But, usually, people pronounce it the standard way. But you never know.

Melanie Avalon: She spells it with an O, for listeners who are curious, Barbora. Actually, this is appropriate timing. I just got an email from a company we're going to start working with and they were like, “Can you send a picture of you and Gin together?” And I was like, “Well--"

Gin Stephens: Nope. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I cannot, actually. [laughs] Gin and I have never met in person.

Gin Stephens: We need to get a picture together.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: I know people are probably like-- their minds are exploding right now.

Melanie Avalon: That we've never met in person? Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Because we said it before on the podcast. But I know people assume we have met by now. But we still haven't.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I remember when I asked questions for you in the group somebody asked that, was like, “Have you still met in person?” And everybody was like, “What?” Long story short, which we've told a few times on the show, but why not retell it? I was wanting to start a podcast. I had self-published a book, like Gin, about intermittent fasting, the original What When Wine diet, and I was wanting to start a podcast about intermittent fasting, but I wanted a cohost. So, I just was Facebook googling like intermittent fasting groups. And so, I wandered into the one meal a day group. And I was like, "looking to start a fasting podcast." And at this point, I did have my book deal. So, I had a book coming out. I had What When Wine coming out. I didn't mention the title because I didn't want people to think I was trying to pitch my book. But I did say I have a book coming out in bookstores about fasting, I would like to start a podcast, is anybody interested? And everybody in the group completely freaked out.

Gin Stephens: They did. It was small at that time, I have to say. This was in early 2017. And my book had only been out for like three months at this point. My book was still new. Yeah, everybody freaked out, reported it, reported it. You know how people do.

Melanie Avalon: And I got kicked out of the group. I was like, “Okay.”

Gin Stephens: Just briefly while we could regroup, and that was me, I was the only admin, there was nobody but me. So, I'm the one, because it was reported. And people were like, “You're very rude, coming in here and trying to--” I mean those were like the comments-- that people said, it wasn't rude at all. But the comments were, that's what someone said. I don't even know if you saw those comments, because-- but people reported the post and the comments were like, “I can't believe you're coming in here talking about your book.” So, then I reached out to you by Messenger and said, “Hey, I saw your post, and let's talk about that.” And I can remember-- and then I added you back to the group immediately. I probably was teaching school at the time, like it was in the middle of a school day. And so, I'd be trying to teach, and then I'd get a notification. Anyway, things would happen, and I would be like, “What's happening? I have to go do another job now, kids. Just give me a minute.” But initially, you were like, “Let's do one,” because you liked Paleo Women. And you're like, “Let's do intermittent fasting for women.” And I'm so glad we decided to--

Melanie Avalon: I know we were like talking about a lot of different ways to take in.

Gin Stephens: Women. Your initial idea was you wanted to do a podcast targeted to women.

Melanie Avalon: I don't even remember that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I remember that. And I was like, “Well we have a lot of men in the group. So how about-- I think men would like it too.” I think men would also listen, and I'm so glad that we did not target it just to women because I know we have some fabulous men who listen all the time. And in fact, I was just talking yesterday to-- her name is Lisa Fischer. She's a radio personality from Arkansas, and she's starting a podcast. And she actually first heard about intermittent fasting from her son, her college-aged son who discovered it through our podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, so her college-age son listening to our podcast. So, shoutout to Lisa’s son. Gosh, I wish I could think of his name. Something like Gibson. I can't remember that might not be it, but it's something-- it's a really cool name that I really loved, whatever it was. Sorry, I can't think of it, but he introduced Lisa to intermittent fasting. And then, she introduced thousands of people from Arkansas. I had to think for a minute. I don't know how you say it, Arkansanians? People from Arkansas. Arkan-- I don't know. Arkansanians. I'm sure that's not it.

Melanie Avalon: Georgians, Tennesseans, Floridians, Arkans-- Floridians.

Gin Stephens: Arkansas people. Anyway. Lots of people in the Little Rock, Arkansas area doing intermittent fasting, thanks to Lisa. She's pretty awesome.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but I'm so glad that we didn't just do it to women, target the show to women because intermittent fasting has broad appeal. And I'm thrilled that men enjoy our podcast as well.

Melanie Avalon: Same. And I'm also thrilled because we went back and forth on the name.

Gin Stephens: We did.

Melanie Avalon: And we were like, should we make it like catchy and clever and like subtitles, and finally, we just called it The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Best decision ever.

Gin Stephens: It was the best decision ever. Keep it simple.

Melanie Avalon: I remember we did a call to talk it out.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, to meet. And I was like, “I like her.”

Melanie Avalon: Me, I was like, “I like her.”

Gin Stephens: Yay.

Melanie Avalon: I remember also, because, originally, I was thinking like, somebody my age and make it the paleo women podcast, I guess which at the time was-- Yeah, now it's called Well-Fed Women, which is so surreal how far we've come because now I'm really, really good friends with Noelle, like really good friends with her. She's the host of that show. But I think it's worked so well that because between me and you, we can cover all perspectives.

Gin Stephens: Right, because I'm a whole lot older than you. I don't know if people realize that, but I'm over 20 years older than you.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. I like how we have different-- like, we're on the same page about the fundamentals. But then, I get to cover the people who are like slightly more paleo or obsessed with biohacking or that. And then, you're more of the people who fasting is their main thing, not as much, but we're still on the same page about the overall fundamental importance of so many things, like genetics and the gut microbiome and mindset and all this stuff.

Gin Stephens: It was 2017. So, it's been--

Melanie Avalon: Almost three years.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, over. It's been over three years. Yeah, over three years, April. I think May 1st of 2017 is when we were setting the first podcast to come out. That was our goal date, right around May.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Here we are, Episode 183.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, over three years later. I love it.

Melanie Avalon: It's crazy.

Gin Stephens: It really is.

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting that we still have so much to talk about every time.

Gin Stephens: We do still have a lot to talk about.

Melanie Avalon: As long as we can talk a little bit about other things thrown in there as well. Personal life. I don't know, it's like a catalog of life events. It's funny, I was thinking about this the other day. I was thinking how, like, throughout everything in the past three years, I can probably-- regardless of what was happening, the one thing that was consistent was doing this show. So, I can remember like, well, recording the podcast at that time because nothing else have I done like that consistently.

Gin Stephens: Every week, we've put one out. Every single week.

Melanie Avalon: Few times where things got a little intense, trying to get it out.

Gin Stephens: But it happened.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. Super grateful.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, me too. I'm glad you wandered into our group. That was a good wandering.

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you kicked me out and then accepted me.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: I really didn't know what was happening because I was like, “What's going on?” Why is everybody so upset?" But people were being very protective.

Melanie Avalon: I think it's so funny, it's why I say it. It's really funny.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it is a funny story. I'm grateful to have this podcast. I've told this story too before, but I had just the week before been on a podcast that I was a guest. It was the first time I'd ever been a guest on a podcast, the week before. And it wasn't a health-related podcast. I think it was a political podcast, but the guy was in the group, and he's like, “Let's talk about fasting.” I'm like, “Fine.” We didn't talk about politics. But he was in the group. I'm not even sure what his politics were. But it wasn't a health podcast. But he interviewed me-- he and his cohost interviewed me, I can't even remember the name of it, but for like an hour. And I was able to talk about fasting for an hour, and I thought, “I wonder if I could do a podcast.” And then, one week later, you show up and say, “Anybody want to do a podcast?” I'm like, if that's not the universe, then I don't know what it is because I would still be thinking about it. I wouldn't be doing it.

Melanie Avalon: And now, here we both are with two shows each or another-- Well, two shows between us. We each have another show.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. A total of three.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Mine, yours, and ours. Isn't that what they say with kids when people get remarried? Ours, yours and--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, is that what they say?

Gin Stephens: Mine, yours, and ours. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, we have one more question from Emily, the subject is "Shift Work and Weight Loss." And Emily says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. I have a question regarding shift work and weight loss. I'm a 34-year-old, stay-at-home mom of four kids and I have a paper route as my side hustle. I typically sleep from 10 PM to 2 AM, work from 2:00 to 4:00 AM, six days a week and then sleep from 4 to 7 AM.” Wow, I'm just in awe of this. Okay.

She says, “I'm new to IF as I'm consuming books and podcasts during my fasting time, instead of food. I keep hearing you guys talk about shift work being one of those times where weight loss is difficult. I aim for a 20:4 hour fasting window and eat usually from 2 to 6 PM. I threw out my scale. So, I don't know if I've lost any weight, but I do feel better. Is the slimming down portion of this life plan likely going to be slow going for me, since my sleep is broken up into shifts? I don't eat during my work hours, obviously. But I now know there's a lot more to consider than just calories consumed when it comes to health and weight loss. I feel in control of my food consumption for the first time in my life, even if I don't lose a single pound, although I need to lose about 50 pounds, I will continue this simply because I'm no longer a slave to the cravings. Thank you, Emily.” Wow. So, she sleeps from 10 to 2, gets up, does her paper route from 2 to 4, and then comes back and sleeps until 7:00.

Gin Stephens: So, it sounds like she's getting seven hours of sleep a night, but it's interrupted with a two-hour period of work. I don't know, this is an unusual situation because that's more than just shift work because shift work is when someone is typically-- typical shift work is when people are sleeping during the day and awake when most people are sleeping. This is like she's still sleeping at a typical time, it's just broken up in the middle. If you're getting up to tend to a baby, that's waking up in the middle of the night. Boy, I remember those days, I never felt rested.

Melanie Avalon: And she's doing a paper route. So, she's like delivering.

Gin Stephens: Getting up, delivering the paper and then going back to sleep. This is just something, I don't know of any research into what happens when you have that little awake period in the middle of the night. Although, Melanie, have you ever read articles that talk about how people used to have-- Do they call it a biphasic sleep pattern? Have we talked about that before?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they would get up in the middle of the night and do something.

Gin Stephens: And then go back to bed.

Melanie Avalon: And I want to report back on this question because I want to do more research on this question.

Gin Stephens: I think this is very different than typical shift work where you're awake during the night, the whole night, and sleeping only during the day. That's opposite of our body's natural rhythm. But a lot of us naturally do tend to wake in the middle of the night right around that time. And as we've mentioned, it used to be common knowledge or common practice to wake up in the middle of the night and then go back to bed, like they would get up and do some things and then go back to bed. They also would probably go to bed earlier with the sun, when it got dark, they'd go to bed earlier, then they'd wake up in the middle of the night, be awake for a while, then go back to bed for a few more hours. So, I'm not sure that's a bad thing really. If it were me, I would probably try to go to sleep earlier than 10 PM, just to get a little bit more on the front end. If you feel like you need a little more sleep, maybe try to go to bed at 9 PM instead and see if you can.

Melanie Avalon: You might also benefit from a nap during the day if you can, do it.

Gin Stephens: But just that one more hour of asleep on the front end might really help, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to ask Dr. Kirk Parsley about this because he's a sleep expert and I really wish I had--

Gin Stephens: That's a great question. Maybe we could revisit it.

Melanie Avalon: Let's do a part two.

Gin Stephens: Get that info and then we can come back to it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because that is really interesting because when I read this through, but I think reading it now is when I realized exactly what she's doing which is--

Gin Stephens: Right. It's not exact shift work. Same thing with me, when the first time I read it, I was just like, “Oh, shift work.” But this is different.

Melanie Avalon: It does make me think because when I was interviewing Siim yesterday, he did a trial of polyphasic sleep for like 100 days. And he said, when he did it, he slept like four hours at night and then would take like two 20-minute naps during the day, which is obviously very different from this. And I don't even know if that's typical of the way you're supposed to do polyphasic sleep, but I just thought about it because he mitigated, I guess-- or he had that intense block and then he did the naps-- but there's a lot of studies on naps, and just how effective-- Oh, that is something I learned. Did you know that in theory-- because I'm always like terrified that taking a nap during the day will make me not being able to sleep at night? But in theory, if you have a full sleep cycle during the day, it shouldn't really affect your night. It's just like adding another sleep cycle.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I've never seen any science on napping. I don't typically nap. Unless it's like I'm out of whack because I've been on vacation and I'm sluggish, trying to get back to my fasting regimen. Other than that, I don't feel like I need a nap.

Melanie Avalon: I don't either. But apparently, they're really beneficial, and they're really beneficial for memory learning. So, there's different categories of it. And these numbers are not correct, but this was the general gist of it. If you're sleep-deprived and you learn something, that evening you might have like a-- on a scale of one to five, I'm completely making up these numbers, but this is the idea. On a scale of one to five of retention, you might have a two or three, and then the next day when you wake up, you'll be like a four. But if you were to take a nap, then you would already be like a four that night and the next day you'd be like a five. So, napping is really important, especially if you're sleep deprived, for memory formation. And for Emily, I think it could be helpful if she can fit it in.

Gin Stephens: It all depends on how old her kids are, and what they're doing, whether you can nap. Because I can remember when my boys were little, it was when Will was a newborn and Cal-- So, Cal was 18 months when Will was born. And so, I was in that period where I wasn't sleeping at night because I was getting up to feed Will-- Oh, Will turns 21 this week, by the way. So, this was 21 years ago. And so, I can remember, newborn Will was taking a nap and Cal was 18 months old, and I remember I was trying so hard to take a nap. I was lying on the couch and Cal was watching some-- probably Blue's Clues and I was trying so hard to take a nap. And he kept coming over and with his little chubby baby fingers was like prying my eyes open with his fingers. Like, “Mama, Mama.” I'm like, “Please, Cal, just let mama sleep, please.” So, there was no napping going down. And also, my children were not good nappers.

Melanie Avalon: I was never a napper.

Gin Stephens: Uh-huh, no, we're not good nappers. When Will was in kindergarten, first of all, he was old, because he's got a September birthday. So, he was already six and in kindergarten, because he was five when kindergarten started but turned six right away, and they had to have naptime. And his teachers, like, “Will will not lay on his mat at nap time.” I'm like, “He is not going to. So, you can either fight him on it, or you can give him something to do.” She's like, “Well, the rule is they have to just lay there.” I'm like, “Well, I'm sorry, he is not going to do that no matter what I do to him.” I mean, I could punish him every day. He ain’t going to lay on his nap mat and just lay there. I'm just telling you.

Melanie Avalon: I remember nap time. I forgot about that.

Gin Stephens: But every day, he got in trouble. At recess, he lost his recess every day because he wouldn't lay on his nap mat and like-- I wanted to just-- I'm like, I'm not the kindergarten teacher, but this is really not-- you're punishing him for his inability to lay still, and he was not able to do it. Anyway, it was a frustrating time as a mother.

Melanie Avalon: I remember one of the nap times, the teacher came and got me, and I thought I was in trouble. But then really, she was like-- I guess because I was a good student, she went and took me with some other student on some magical adventure during nap time, I don't remember what it was. It was something with feeding the plants or I don't know, something-- we did something fun.

Gin Stephens: I can remember being an elementary school and also we would have to put our heads down on our desks even in fourth grade because we didn't have recess. Our teacher was just like all the time. It was just our teacher. She had to teach us art. She had to teach us music. She never got a break. So, that was probably like their planning time, put your head down on your desk. But I also had a really hard time doing that. And so, she would give me jobs to do.

Melanie Avalon: Like what?

Gin Stephens: Like grade papers or do different things, but I could not sit still. So, I had lots of sympathy for Will and it was very frustrating as a mom because I could not fix it. I could not make him lie on his nap mat for his teacher. There was nothing I could do. He wasn't going to do it. And so, I was like-- I tried to talk to her. I'm like, “If you could just find-- Let him read a book.” She's like, “Nope, the rule is you have to lie there.” I'm like, “All right. Okie-doke.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: This is random, do they separate you in naptime by girls and boys? Or is it all just like--?

Gin Stephens: Everybody had their spot, and they didn't separate them by boys and girls. No.

Melanie Avalon: I didn’t think so. Good times.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Well, on that note.

Gin Stephens: On that note, my little 21-year-old still wouldn't take a nap today, fella. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, not a napper. I don't understand how you can fall-- it's like take a 20-minute nap. It would take me 20 minutes to like maybe fall asleep. So, I don't know how a person takes like a 20-minute nap.

Gin Stephens: Or maybe the whole experience of a 20-minute nap takes 40 minutes.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it would take like five hours for me. I don't know.

Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode183. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. You can follow me, I'm @melaniemvalon. Gin is @ginstephens. And, yes, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Gin, before we go.

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Talk to you then.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 182 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome this is episode 182 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody?

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm a little bummed because it's so much the change of seasons. You know how much I love summer?

Melanie Avalon: I love it.

Gin Stephens: I'm wearing jeans. I'm still not wearing shoes, though. I was playing in my closet today looking at-- it's not time to switch it out yet that it's still warm enough, but it was like 76 here. But I have these shorts. Have I ever talked about my GAP shorts from the 90s that I still have?

Melanie Avalon: Maybe, refresh my memory.

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know why I saved these shorts. It was before I had kids. It was these GAP shorts, they're size 8 from like 1995 I'm guessing. It shows how sizes have changed so much over time. Because in college, I was probably about the same weight I am now, I might be a little smaller now but I don't know, but in college, I was a size eight.

Melanie Avalon: So, sizes have--?

Gin Stephens: Oh, changed big time. Yeah, vanity sizing.

Melanie Avalon: So, what would an 8 be now?

Gin Stephens: Well, just for a perspective, these are size 8 from the GAP from, like I said, about '95 and they're too big for me everywhere except the waist. The waist fits me. So, I have the same size waist that I had when I was 25 years old, which is awesome. But the butt and the thighs are just giant. But again, also, they're pleated and they're khaki shorts. I mean the clothes we wore back in that era were just not attractive.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Pleated khaki shorts. I mean they're like a bell. They're not cute. The waist fits me perfectly, but they're size 8 and I'm sitting here right now in zero jeans that the waist fits. So yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, they're similar sized, but those are an 8 compared to zero now.

Gin Stephens: Yes. Well, I mean, they are too big for me except in the waist. But I think a lot of things now have relaxed waists.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Wow. So, back then zero must have been like?

Gin Stephens: I don't remember anyone being a zero, really. I don't remember it. I don't remember people even being a zero. Did they even have zero? I'm not sure it was. I know when I was 12 years old, I was tiny. Okay, tiny. My mother got remarried. And I was like a flower girl, it was this tiny little wedding, but I had a Gunne Sax brand dress. This is from the 80s, okay. Early 80s, maybe even late 70s, this brand Gunne Sax. It was this [unintelligible [00:07:54] style with ribbon and all that. And I think I was a size 3. I was like 12 and tiny.

Melanie Avalon: Because kid sizes are in one, three, five?

Gin Stephens: This is junior size.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay.

Gin Stephens: This junior size 3, someone who wears a 5 or a 7 now versus-- but I was itty-bitty and wearing a 3. I mean, I haven't been able to wear junior sizes though ever since I really went through puberty. I've always been in the even sizes, because I'm curvier.

Melanie Avalon: I remember going to Paris, and the sizes there are like--

Gin Stephens: Really different?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they're probably more like what it used to be here.

Gin Stephens: Probably what it used to be here in like the 50s or something. [laughs] But sizes have changed so much. And every time I pull out those shorts, it's hilarious. I have a pair of jeans from the GAP that I wore in the early 2000s. It was after I finished having kids and I lost the weight back. It was in the unfortunate diet pills era, but I felt really good in these jeans. They're size 4. No, wait, they're size 6, that was a lie. They're size 6 from the GAP. And they're like mom jeans, and they are big in the waist. I'm smaller now than I was during the diet pill days, but they're hilarious fitting too. And the GAP was just not having good clothes, and I was buying them up apparently. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: For shirts, because I'm a pretty small person but I like all my-- like t-shirts and stuff, I always like extra larges or extra-extra larges. Especially because brands want to send us stuff and they want to send shirts a lot and they're like, “What size?” I'm like, “Extra-large.” They're like--

Gin Stephens: I'm like small.

Melanie Avalon: Every time, Gin. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't like them being big.

Melanie Avalon: I don't like being confined. I don't like clothes actually.

Gin Stephens: I don't like feeling confined. But I like things to fit me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Oh, wait, can I mention one thing since we're talking about clothes? I just got a-- new company from LA, they're making grounding shoes. I am so excited. I can probably get them to send you a pair if it's something you're interested in.

Gin Stephens: I would love to try their shoes.

Melanie Avalon: I will get on that. For listeners, they only make the sandals. But I just got my pair and I'm so excited because what I had been using was these grounding strips, I don't know if they actually work. For those who don't know what we're talking about, it's basically so that when you walk on natural earth, the ions in the earth-- it's something to do with the energy of the earth. And it's not like some woo-woo thing, it's very much real.

Gin Stephens: Well, my husband who's an organic chemist, things have charges. Every time you have static electricity, or thunder, lightning, that's static, that's energy being transferred. So, we know scientifically that energy transfers, that's not woo-woo. It's real, we see it.

Melanie Avalon: And by being on natural earth, it has a very natural healing effect on the body compared to when we're constantly not actually touching the ground. So, it's beneficial to get yourself grounded, which you do by walking outside barefoot. But if you have shoes on, obviously, you're not touching the ground. That's why they made these grounding shoes that they conduct the charge from the earth to your body. So, they're really cool. I got really excited. I'll put a link because I think I have a discount for them too. So, I'll put a link in the show notes to it.

Gin Stephens: Well, the reason I brought up the clothes, in case, everybody's like why are we talking about the GAP clothes from the 90s, the point is that people get so caught up in sizes and it's just meaningless, the way things are sized. I have things in my closet that fit me, zero to four. If I go to my old clothes, six and eight. If you go to a vintage store, sizes are going to be really different. So, you've got to just not worry about the sizes. Easier said than done.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, actually, Gin, we have a question, since we're talking about all of these sizes and what it all means, this wasn't on the lineup for today, but how would you feel if I do a surprise question?

Gin Stephens: That would be awesome. I would love a surprise question.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, because I've been wanting to do this question for a while. So, I feel like it's appropriate right now with everything that we're talking about. Our first question comes from Nicole, the subject is "Product You May Love and Questions." And Nicole says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, thank you so much for your awesome podcast. Gin, I love your down-to-earth personality. And Melanie, I adore your curious mind. First off, I wanted to share with you a product for your listeners, especially the ones that have a fear of the scale. I own a zero scale. It's a digital scale that sets your weight at zero and tells you up or down pounds. It doesn't reveal your weight. I'm not sure this exact scale is around, but I've seen similar items, and I've attached a link.”

And she attached a link to a scale called Shapa. When we got this email, Gin was like, “I want to talk about this!” So, Gin, would you like to talk about this? I have no idea what this is.

Gin Stephens: Yes, I'm so glad you pulled that one out today because I have a Shapa scale. You know how I said I haven't weighed myself since 2017? Well, it's both true, and now false. It's true that I have no idea what the number is because the Shapa numberless scale does not show you your number. Well, you can set it to show you your number, but I have set mine not to show my number. If you get this scale everybody, do not sync it with Apple Health, or it will show you your number on Apple Health. People are like, “Oh, no, it showed me the number!”

We were just having this conversation, in fact, my moderators today about weight maintenance and the scale going up and down. If you're in maintenance, you're going to be within a weight range, which means that your weight might fluctuate within even a 10-pound range and you're not gaining weight or losing weight. But you get on the scale and it's up five pounds from yesterday, and then you have this panic of, “Am I gaining weight?” “What's happening?” Because we know the only thing that matters is your overall trend.

In all of my books, I wrote about weighing daily, and then once a week, you calculate a weekly average and you only compare the weekly averages, and that will really save your sanity. But you still have to see the fluctuations of like today, you're up five pounds, and it freaks you out a little bit. At least it did me. So, that's why I threw my scale away and I haven't gotten on a scale from 2017 until today. I mean not today, but I mean like the past six weeks. So, over three years, not standing on any kind of scale.

Well, someone told me about the Shapa scale. I've been raving about it in my Facebook groups, but if you go to myshapa.com, it tells you all about it. Now, the creator of this scale, I don't know how to say his last name. His name is Dan Ariely. A-R-I-E-L-Y. That’s how I'm saying it, that could be so wrong if it is, Dan, I'm sorry. He's the creator of Shapa. He actually is a professor of psychology and behavioral economics from Duke University. His TED talks have been viewed over 15 million times. I'm reading this off their website. Now, I just went to it real quick. And he's written three New York Times bestsellers. In 2018, he was named one of the 50 most influential living psychologists in the world.

Okay, so this guy, I wanted to say that to let you know, that he knows what he's doing with psychology. For me, the thought of having a scale with numbers really gives me anxiety because if I got on the scale and I didn't like the number, it would make me want to diet or make me want to do certain things. Any of us who have been obese or overweight, we had this panic that we're going to regain all the weight. Even though I've been maintaining since 2015, seeing a number on a scale could really upset me. It is what it is. So, the scale does not show you a number unless you set it to, it only gives you color feedback.

So, for the first 10 days, you stand on it, and you have to do it twice a day, while it's calibrating, you get on in the morning, you have to have the app open on your smartphone. You get on it, you get off of it, then you do it again in the evening, you get on, you get off. And then after about 10 days-- it could take a few more than 10. It took me 10. You start seeing colors. And the color lets you know what your trend is doing. So, if you get green on your app, that means your weight is maintaining over time. If you get teal, that means you're losing a little weight, you're on a slight downward trend. Blue means you're on a really good solid downward trend. And there's a couple of shades of grey you could get, which shows that your trend is going up.

Now some people are like, “Well, how does that help because what if you got on one day and it was green, and the next day it was gray, and the next day it was blue?” And that's not how it works. So, that wouldn't happen. Remember that Dan is a professor of psychology, so he understands the fluctuations are the problem. He doesn't just give you fluctuating color. It does complicated statistics, and it only shows you what your actual trend with all this complicated math is doing. So, if you get on, it's not going to just give you random fluctuation colors. So, that's why-- I've just loved getting on it. It coincided with the month that I had first given up drinking for a month, no alcohol for a month. So, I actually the first color I got was green the first day based on my calibration. But then after that, I've been slowly teal. I've been slowly losing some weight, some of the bloat that I guess I put on over the increased baking and drinking of the pandemic. The only change I've made is not drinking and I've been on a solid teal. So, I'm losing a little bit of that pandemic fluff that may have come on. But that's the thing that's so fabulous for me. I don't have any nervousness about stepping on it. I'm not worried, even if it showed me gray, just showed my trend was going up, I would be like, “Alright, time to reverse this trend,” but it's different than that number.

So, anyway, if anyone's interested, go to myshapa.com. And I actually have partnered with them because I love them so much. As soon as I read about it, I got it. And then, I started badgering them with emails till they finally returned my email. And I'm like, “I really, really, really want to have a relationship with y'all for my podcast because I think that this could be life-changing.” There are a lot of people like me that are absolutely terrified of the scale and don't want to see that number. It might be crazy. Maybe if I was 100% healthy, I wouldn't care but there's still that emotion tied up in it. Dan, the behavioral psychologist degrees, a lot of people really don't do well with that. So, if you go to myshapa.com and you use the promo code 'IFSTORIES,' which is associated with my Intermittent Fasting Stories podcast with the program, you sign up for their program, and it's like a yearly subscription to their app, but then they send you the scale for free, you save $30 on the program.

And after the year is over, the year that you've signed up for, you do not have to renew, and you can continue to use the app. It doesn't stop working. You don't have to renew. Anyway, it's super awesome. And I am weighing on it every day. I don't know how much I weigh, but I don't need to.

Melanie Avalon: That is really cool. I had never heard of this before. So, what does it look like? Does it look like a normal scale?

Gin Stephens: It doesn't have a window. It just it's like a round disc and it has like these little silver crescents that you step on. And so, you step on them and it reads what's happening. It also claims that it is reporting the changes in your body composition, not just your raw weight. So, if you're building muscle but losing fat, it should adjust for that, I think, based on what I've read, because it's checking your whole body composition and looking for positive changes. It does not reveal what the colors mean, as far as how much you're losing. It just shows you the overall trend, but I'm really enjoying it. From someone who said, “I'll never have a scale again,” I've got it.

The whole time I've gone through menopause-- by the way, I am two weeks away from officially being able to say, “I'm done with menopause,” or through it on the other side, because you have to go a year. But you worry-- when you have lost over 80 pounds, you worry that one day maybe it's going to be menopause, maybe it's going to be too much wine, but all of a sudden, you're going to balloon back up again and gain all the weight back. So, now, for the rest of my life, I'll be able to get on the scale and not have that fear of, “Oh no. Am I secretly gaining weight?” or “My pants a little tight.” I'll know.

Melanie Avalon: Well, actually, to your point, Nicole, the follow-up sentence where she says, “I have anxiety about numbers, and this has been life-saving.”

Gin Stephens: Yeah, she's got the zero scale. And I don't know that tells you whether you're up or down pounds. I don't know that I'd like that. Because remember, if I got on it, and it said, “You're up five pounds,” I think I would start to cry. I wouldn't like my scale telling me I was up five pounds or down two pounds. I don't want to hear any numbers, which is why I like Shapa so much. I don't hear numbers. I don't hear anything. I just only see that nice little blue or the teal or the green. And I don't even know.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if it tells you the actual pound or if it just is like up.

Gin Stephens: I wouldn't want to hear up. It feels like to me you would get on and it would just tell you whether you were up or down. I just know me. I weighed for the first year of maintenance, I weighed, but every time I got on and it was up, I panicked in my brain, even though I was like, “All right. It's okay.” Every time I saw up, it made me feel, “Ugh.” And when it went down, I was like, “Ooh.” But not even having to know the fluctuations, just knowing what the overall trend is doing, it's just a breath of fresh air. Anyway, to get me to have a scale again is pretty incredible. And the company's been great. So, I'm a huge fan. And my shapa.com, promo code 'IFSTORIES.'

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you should get one too.

Melanie Avalon: You actually convinced me. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go get one right now.

Gin Stephens: And then you could see what's happening. But you don't have to worry about the number.

Melanie Avalon: I like colors too.

Gin Stephens: I like colors too. They have one that's like white, that's the one I got. It's like a wood-tone white. And then, they have like a grayish-blackish white, and then they have an oaky-- no, the black is just not white, I don’t know why I said white. It's a blackish wood-tone grayish-blackish. Anyway, white, black, wood tone, but they all have wood graining. It looks really pretty in the bathroom.

Melanie Avalon: Can I say one thing about colors just because it made me think of it?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Yesterday, I saw a rainbow and I think I literally contemplate the nature of rainbows for an hour. I was googling and reading all about rainbows. And then, I was reading about linguistic relativity, which is my new favorite thing.

Gin Stephens: I don't even know what that is.

Melanie Avalon: I think we've actually talked about it before. It's the idea that we can only understand things we have words for. So, different cultures can see different colors based on what words they have colors for.

Gin Stephens: Wow, that's cool.

Melanie Avalon: It's really cool. And then my mind was being blown, I was like, “Wait, so what colors can I see that other people can't see?” [laughs] Because we don't have a word for it.

Gin Stephens: And then, there's the wrinkle of-- I've talked about before, I guess, Chad having that weird colorblindness. Remember me talking about that? Or did I? How he can't see? He's got blue-yellow colors, I'm crazy, I don't know I'd never heard of. We've all heard of red-green colorblindness, but I had never heard it. Well, I assume we all have. I had never heard of the blue yellow. It's driving me crazy though, Melanie. He sees things so differently. We got some art, and he can't see it. I'm like, “What is your problem? It's beautiful. It looks perfect." And he's like, “No," I want him to see and love the environment that he lives in too, so that's what's hard. I'm not dealing with someone who sees it properly. I am having to make my house look good to someone who sees it differently than me because I care about how he feels in the home. That's tricky.

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All right, now back to the show.

Well, back to Nicole's question.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, I was so excited when I read that question when it said Shapa, the link that she gave to Shapa numberless scale, I was like, “What?”

Melanie Avalon: Just for listeners. I go through and categorize all the questions and occasionally, Gin will pop in her thoughts. And if it's really important to her, she makes it very known. So, with this one, she was like, “I was just so excited.” She's like, “I must talk about this.” So, yeah. From the rest of Nicole's email, she says, “Now to my fasting question. I've mostly stayed at an average weight since puberty, but always struggled to lose 20 pounds, which would put my five-foot-six frame at around 130, 135. I've gone up and down with those 20 pounds throughout my life, but around four years ago, I was able to get to 133 effortlessly, I am 42. The only thing I changed at the time that I can remember was eating more lentils and broccoli. Lol.

A year and a half ago, I got two tooth infections, had to have wisdom teeth removed and a root canal. The wisdom tooth surgery was a coronectomy, awful pain, and I basically lived with clove essential oil in my mouth for two months. The root canal was regular, but I had to go on antibiotics for prevention. I'm pretty sure I'll be doing holistic dentistry from now on. After these instances, weight crept on and I was back up to 155 even though no eating habits had changed. I had tried all my tricks of the past, but nothing worked.

After a trial with keto, which did not end successfully, I came across IF and started studying the science behind it. That's where I found all three of your podcasts. Happy to report I started IF in February of this year, I'm fasting completely clean and I can easily do a window of 16 to 20 hours, give or take that awful mid-March to May time, I've noted many non-scale victories. Rosacea is gone, aches are gone, energy, etc. But I've not lost weight. I had an awful time in the beginning, which is what I think was my body detoxing, awful menstruation, skin issues, etc. But it all worked itself out. I'm eating less than I ever have now and healthier. My diet is well rounded, 90% clean, organic, wheat, dairy, and egg-free by choice. I'm incredibly in tune with my body and I know something is still missing even with all the health benefits.

I also have hypothyroid and I am working on finding a new endocrinologist who do extensive testing since my current doctor will not run these tests. I can't find anyone local to run proper and extensive hormone testing, but I'm trying to find a telehealth doctor. I will continue to investigate these issues. But can there be anything I'm missing from my teeth incidents that can clue you to what path I should take, considering as when I saw a huge change in weight to happen so quickly? I've cut alcohol during the week, lowered carbs, changed windows meditated, tapped, and tried changing what I ate, bought a glucose monitor to track as well. I feel like I'm obsessing but getting this under control especially since losing this weight before menopause is very important to me.

Any help, advice is appreciated. If patience is key, I'll get there. I haven't done ADF. Can't seem to get there. But if that is what it takes… You both to me are masterminds at figuring these things out. I'm hoping you give me some suggestions as to what to do. I am celebrating the non-scale victories and the health benefits but losing weight to me, especially since I know I was at that 135 range for a long time, is very important. Thank you so much for all you guys do. You are my favorite podcast to listen to and are a super team. XOXO. Nicole, from New Jersey.”

Gin Stephens: Well, Nicole, it is great to hear from you. And that struggle, I can totally understand when you've been maintaining for your whole life. Even though you had to go up and down a little bit, you could always get there, and then all of a sudden, nothing is working. And I think it's great that you can pinpoint that turning point when you had that dental work, and you had to go on to antibiotics for prevention. We hear that kind of thing a lot. People have a turning point with their health. Often, it involves some medication. Sometimes, it might be steroids. For you, it was antibiotics. And that causes something in your body to change and then all of a sudden, your weight is really different on the other side of that event.

I've talked before about a friend of mine who had food poisoning. And then after that, she could not keep the weight on, she could not maintain her weight. Her weight just went down and down and down and down for like forever. She was getting skinnier and skinnier and trying to eat more, trying to put the weight on, and she could not. I tell this story again to illustrate that that affected her gut microbiome, and something in there shifted. And so, whatever that population was, she could not use her food properly and she could not gain the weight at all. She had to really work. It took her, I don't know, over a year to rebuild her gut microbiome and get her health back to where she could maintain what was a healthy weight for her.

I would really think about focusing on rebuilding your gut microbiome. I understand the importance of it, but I am not a gut microbiome rebuilding expert. Dr. Ruscio. How do you say it? Michael Ruscio, is that his name?

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Michael Ruscio. Healthy Gut, Healthy You.

Gin Stephens: Healthy Gut, Healthy You, that was the name of the book. He came on our podcast, gosh, was it 2017 or 2018?

Melanie Avalon: It was a while ago. I had him on mine too since then. But, yeah, he's great.

Gin Stephens: He's great. His book lays out some different things to try because his goal is to get your gut back to where it needs to be building things back up. I believe it can be done after watching my friend go through that, and how she was able to heal. But it's really, really important. A lot of it is trial and error. Do you have anything to add about that?

Melanie Avalon: That was exactly what I was going to say. The gut microbiome plays such a huge role. And it really can for so many people, I think, be the defining factor in making this shift between struggling with your weight or not, struggling with your weight. I'm actually reading a book right now. Have you heard of Joel Greene?

Gin Stephens: I don't think so.

Melanie Avalon: I heard him on Ben Greenfield’s podcast, and it was like a two-part podcast. The stuff he was saying was like the most mind-blowing stuff ever. I think I talked about him briefly on this podcast. He was saying how all the problems with yo-yo dieting and how losing weight-- was it losing or gaining weight? How one of those actually damages the fat cells or damages your body to lose and gain weight. In any case, I'm reading his book right now, and I just started it, and it's a doozy.

Gin Stephens: What's it called?

Melanie Avalon: It's called The Immunity Guide. Like I said, just started it, but his theory is that all of this goes back to our immune cells, and how they're reacting to things and whether it's inflammatory or noninflammatory, and that the gut microbiome plays a role in that. Apparently, this book has a whole plan to fix it. The reason I brought it up is that when there are foundational shifts in the body, it's hard to know what's what. But the shift itself can create change, like with the microbiome, how your body reacts to all of that can change. So, you might start having chronic inflammation and reactions to everything whereas you did before. It's really hard to lose weight in an inflamed state, it's a lot harder.

In any case, I like what Gin said. I would say something to focus on-- especially since you don't want to go like the ADF route, I do think focusing on the gut microbiome would be the way to go. The cool thing is there's not one answer to that. People will say there's one answer, don't we know that? But people seemingly “fix their microbiome” or get it back to a healthy state on a variety of diets. Some people feel they do that through a keto approach, some people through a higher-carb approach. That's why I do really love Dr. Ruscio’s Healthy Gut, Healthy You because it's like a choose your own adventure. He goes through the science of everything and then a plan, but it's not one plan. Pretty much every other book out there is one plan.

Gin Stephens: Right. Like, “Here is the one thing that's wrong with everyone, just do this.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And do this plan. So, occasionally, it'll be like, “Oh, maybe skip this step or this step.” But his is very much like, “If you're this, start here. If you're this, start here. Then when this happens, go here.” So, it's very individualized.

Gin Stephens: Yes. And which was what I loved about it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's also almost macronutrient agnostic. He does talk about how a lot of people do need to start at low carb just because they can't tolerate the carbs because of all the dysbiosis or their metabolic health or whatever. But he's very much like about finding the carb level that works for the individual. And so, it's all different carb approaches as well. So, yeah, we'll put a link to it in the show notes. I would say definitely, definitely probably try that out. And it's so great that you are experiencing all these other great non-scale victories. Which actually, to that point, I think I've said something a little bit misleading because I was saying it's really hard to gain weight if you're in a constantly inflamed state, but other non-scale victories indicate to me inflammation is going down because your rosacea has gone, aches are gone, energy, etc. So, that's really exciting. Sounds like your body's really benefiting from this. I do think with tweaks and patience even like she says, you could definitely find your way.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And there's also the other factors that-- she's hypothyroid is also an issue. That could be something too. It all kind of just goes together.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm really glad, actually, that you pointed out the hypothyroid thing. I totally meant to talk about that, because that could definitely be huge. She does say that she's working on finding a new endocrinologist since her doctor won't run the tests. Well, she sounds like she's aware about the tests that are needed. Nicole, you can check out our interview with Elle Russ, All About The Thyroid. But, yeah, if you're not on the right dose for thyroid medication or don't have that address, then it can definitely be really hard to lose weight. But, in any case, it really sounds like you are on the right track. You're seeing lots of benefits, non-scale victories like we talked about. And I really think that patience like you said and trying some things, and I'm sure you can get there.

Gin Stephens: And also thinking about ADF, if you wanted to try an up-down day approach that's more of a mild up-down day-- you could do a one-hour window, and then more of a long window the next day, and then a one-hour window. So, it's not like full-on ADF but you're giving it that up and down-ish pattern. So, try that and see.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. All right. Shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes. All right. So, the next question is from Sheree. And the subject is "BiOptimizer Confusion. “I am doing IF and it is going slowly, but steadily. Listening to your podcasts is a good inspiration and motivation for me. My question is on the BiOptimizer products. I would like to add in a product one at a time, but don't know where to start or what is best for me. I am 60, fairly healthy. Sugar’s a bit high but coming down. I sleep okay. I'm fairly calm. From the podcasts and all the reading I have done on their products, it sounds like I may benefit from several products, but my primary focus should start with helping to lose weight. What would be your thoughts? Thanks, Sheree.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Sheree. So, fantastic question. Definitely, if you're not in my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, definitely join there, because people talk about BiOptimizers like every single day. But I know it can be confusing because they have a lot of supplements. And for listeners, we've had Wade and Matt, the founders on the podcast, what like three times now? Two or three times?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think it's three.

Melanie Avalon: Three? I think so.

Gin Stephens: We had Wade by himself. Then we had them both together. Did we have Wade by himself twice? I know we've had him together twice. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I think we had them both together twice and Wade-- we might have had them four times. I don't know. We've had them a lot.

Gin Stephens: I just love them, though because they coexist with such different dietary regimens and acknowledge that we're all different. Those are my favorite people.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, because Wade is like plant-based vegetarian-- I think he's still vegetarian. And Matt is like keto, like carnivore at times. They're like complete opposites. But they realize that our bodies are so unique. Their main thing is that the root of a lot of issues are in the gut, which is what we were talking about earlier. And that addressing that and getting our digestion order can be so huge for just everything and performance, health, everything. I remember Wade made a comment on-- I think when we interviewed him, and it's something that has like, stuck with me to this day. And he said, “People confuse the results with the change.” And this has haunted me, but it was basically the idea that oftentimes people will make a drastic dietary change, and they'll lose weight or things will get better. But then, they'll plateau or things will even get worse. But they think because all of the results happened when they made that drastic dietary change, they think that dietary change was the answer. When really, it was most likely-- it was probably pulling something out of their diet or adding something in. That actual paradigm shift wasn't like the be-all end-all. But the quote has just haunted me to this day.

In any case, so for the confusion, because they do make a lot of stuff. So, none of their stuff is like a weight loss thing because they're not like a weight loss pill. Like I said, it's more holistic. If the reason you're struggling with your weight or struggling with your health is because you're not digesting things, for example, they make digestive enzymes. They can help you digest your food. They make P3OM, it's a probiotic. It's a proteolytic strain, meaning, actually breaks down protein, has antiviral properties. It's one of the few probiotics-- Actually, it's probably like the only probiotic I consistently will take or turn to. I could also probably recommend it for Nicole as well. So, I'll put links to that in show notes. They make a keto supplement called kApex for people doing ketogenic diets. Somebody actually just posted in my Facebook group the other day about it. They were like, “This is a game-changer.”

Gin Stephens: In what way?

Melanie Avalon: I guess they were doing keto for a long time, and not digesting their food well or not feeling energy from the keto diet. And they started taking it and they said that they were digesting food better, that they had amazing energy, and that it was the answer to making the keto diet work for them, which is the reason they make that supplement. And then, they make magnesium because magnesium is super important for stress. It's one of the one-- I don't want to say one of the one because the book I'm reading right now is talking about how we're depleted in all micronutrients. But it's probably one of the primary nutrients that we really need more of, and we just don't get enough of because of our modern soils and modern food. So, they make a really comprehensive magnesium supplement that, again, in my group, people talk about all the time about just being a game-changer. But, Sheree, so none of them are to help you lose weight. They're to help you get your body back into balance so that you can lose weight naturally.

Anyway, definitely join my Facebook group and ask your question there, because people will give you lots of opinions and you can probably get more specific answers.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And it really just depends on issues that you're having and what you need. We don't all need the same supplements. We don't all need everything that BiOptimizer sells. You might need one of their things or two of their things, or zero of their things. But don't feel like, “Well, I've got to get their entire catalog of things.” So, you have to figure out what do you need. I've told this story before, maybe not everyone has heard it. But a friend of mine takes some supplement and she was like, “This supplement is the one that's changed my life.” And then I was like, “Oh, maybe I should try that. I would like to change my life.” And I started taking it, and it made me feel worse and worse and worse. And then, I started researching it and it is based on like a genetic thing that she's got and I don't, and it was the wrong supplement for me. So, never take a supplement just because someone else is having great results with, it might be totally wrong for you.

Melanie Avalon: And we talked about this last week, Gin. I'm more and more of the opinion of minimal supplements, less supplements rather than more. I would prefer 100% that we could just get all of our nutrients from food and never need a supplement ever again. That's why actually if you look at what BiOptimizers makes, it's not actually-- with the exception of magnesium, which is a nutrient, their main thing is digestive enzymes and HCl. So, it's something that is helping you digest your food.

Gin Stephens: It supports digestion.

Melanie Avalon: But in a dream world, nobody would need digestive support because they could just radically digest everything. But a lot of us do because of our gut situation, the foods we're eating, our environment. Our vagus nerve is just all out of whack. So, that can be really helpful. And then, the other one they make probiotic which is different than like a nutrient per se. Like I said, the only really nutrient they do is magnesium. I think they have a mineral supplement. In a dream world, we would not need any. Although I will say, I plucked this last week, but, Gin, I'm taking NR and NMN again, and I swear it's changing my life. Like, why did I stop?

Gin Stephens: And I'm pretty simple. I just take my magnesium at bedtime. There's one multivitamin that I take it with my dinner and that's it. And really, it's because I do try to eat a wide variety of foods and hope to get everything I need for my foods. But it's a really good high-quality multivitamin. They actually sponsor my podcast. So, other than that, though, that's pretty much it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm excited because I'm about to interview, and I mentioned this last time, but Caltons who Rebuild Your Bones. Although now, they have me worried because they're talking about studies where apparently, there was one study where they challenged dietitians to make a diet in different categories, I don't know what it was. I think one was Atkins and one was DASH-- I don't know there's different ones and they were challenged to make a diet that would fulfill like all micronutrients and be “palatable,” which may be the key, maybe that's the key, but be “palatable” and be a certain amount of calories and none of the dietitians could do it. I was like, “Oh, that's disconcerting.” So, yeah,

Hi friends. You guys know I'm always working on naturally managing stress levels. Life can be a little bit stressful these days, don't I know it, and I'm always trying to find the best tools to address that. While I love things like meditation, mindfulness, vagus nerve treatment, and all of that, it turns out there's a supplement that can be incredible for stress and anxiety, also pain and sleeplessness, and a lot of other things.

That would be CBD oil. CBD oil is so incredible because it works on your natural endocannabinoid system to regulate it. It's not making you need more of the substance to feel better. Rather, it's helping you feel better naturally. There's no high, no hangover, no addiction. I think it is so wonderful that CBD is becoming available to the public now, but the problem with that is that it's sort of everywhere and that means there's a lot of CBD products on the market that you don't want to be taking. It's really important, in my opinion, that your CBD meets all of my stringent criteria that it's high quality, full spectrum, tested for potency, organic and made with an organic MCT oil carrier.

Would you believe I've only found one company that fits all of that? That would be Feals. I adore Feals. It's almost shocking if I feel a little bit of tension rising or some stress getting to me, I can take Feals and within minutes, I will feel a sense of calm, and often be laughing. It's really, really crazy. Feals is premium CBD delivered directly to your doorstep. I will never not have Feals in my “medicine cabinet,” because it's that effective.

And they have an incredible offer for our listeners. This offer is just insane. So, you can actually become a member and get 50% off your first order. Yes, 50% off, not making that up. Just go to feals.com/ifpodcast to become a member and get 50% automatically taken off your first order with free shipping. Feals really has me feeling my best every day and it can help you too. Again, feals.com/ifpodcast to become a member and get 50% automatically taken off your first order with free shipping. And, by the way, you can pause or cancel that membership at any time. So, don't worry, this doesn't have to be a commitment, although you'll probably find yourself reordering because it's that amazing. Again, feals.com/ifpodcast.

All right, now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: In any case, shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, we have a question from Laura. The subject is "Weekend Sabotage." Laura says, “Hi ladies. so thankful I found you. What When Wine started all this for me. Feeling great but would love to lean out but crave tough workouts and that muscular look. Would you be able to explain what effect alcohol on the weekends is doing to my body? I will be honest, I am not just having a glass of wine on the weekends on my up days, definitely more than that. But wondering what the science is behind alcohol on the weekends.

Here's a typical week for me. I've been IFing since March of 2019. Monday through Thursday, one meal a day, 24, always a whole30 meal. It is a struggle on Monday though, but I power through. Friday, I fast, till we go out around six but eat and drink whatever I want breakfast, lunch, and dinner but smaller portions because I know I'll be eating three meals, not whole30 until Sunday afternoon around 2:00 PM, then have a healthy dinner whole30. I work out four to five days a week including rowing, running, Peloton, and weights, a variation of these options all week. Plus, walk the dogs four to five times a week, one to two miles a day.

I'm totally stuck. I'm not losing weight. I am at a healthy weight, but definitely squishy in the middle. I read Fast. Feast. Repeat. and I think I will try Some Things Out of the Toolbox with messing around with the length of my window and up and down days. But I'm still curious what my Friday nights to Sunday afternoon is doing scientifically, glycogen stores, insulin, etc. I've also been listening to Melanie talk about Siim Land and muscle building tips. I check my activity with my Apple Watch and it says I burn 2200 to 2500 calories a day, which I don't think I'm eating one meal a day. So, I recently added last week a protein shake to open my window to help get more protein in during my eating window. I'm five feet five inches, 45 years old, newly retired middle schoolteacher, Gin. My hubby and I typically don't drink during the week Monday through Thursday. I weigh on Friday mornings and it takes me till Thursday the next week to get back to where I started. Ugh! Thank you for all your research. I admire both of your passions for health and educating people. Hugs from So Cal.” I have so many thoughts about this question.

Gin Stephens: Me too. And to be honest with you, I'm just going to say, Laura, you've probably heard me talk about-- I don't know when this came in, in relation to what I've been talking about my month of no alcohol and it's extending because I just feel so much better. Did I talk last time, Melanie, about how I drank for my PREDICT study and then couldn't sleep and felt terrible?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I don't think I connected it to the PREDICT study, but yeah.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Oh, that's why I wanted to see what it did on my blood glucose meter. So, I did it for science and then I felt awful again and--

Melanie Avalon: Oh yeah. Yeah, you did.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I thought so. Basically, Laura, what just rocked my world recently was realizing that I am a slow alcohol metabolizer. I talk about in Fast. Feast. Repeat. how when I was trying to get to my initial goal weighed in 2015, I delayed alcohol. It was about a 10-week period. I was almost at my goal, and I wanted to lose, I think it was 20 more pounds to get there so I could buy all my spring clothes and just be that size and not have to buy different clothes, and spring was coming. So, I delayed alcohol, meaning I didn't have any alcohol at all. And I also delayed ultra-processed foods and I ate just whole foods, real foods, plenty of carbs, but real potatoes, real beans, lots of butter or sour cream cheese, just real food. And I lost about two pounds a week. Thinking back on that, now that I understand that I'm a slow alcohol metabolizer, it really like it takes my body days after drinking to get back to a good fat-burning state. And you might say, “Well, how do you know that?”

Well, I went the whole month without any alcohol at all and then I tested a couple glasses of wine at the beach with Chad. I'm using this breath ketone monitor that Melanie had them send me to play around with, and I can 100% see that it takes my body a while to get back into ketosis when I've had alcohol. So, one big thing that jumps out at me is what you said how it's a struggle every Monday, but you power through. So, that indicates, if you're sluggish and struggling-- yeah, I always just assumed it was I'd refilled my glycogen storage. I just assumed that. But now I realized that-- even when I was at the beach with Chad, I didn't eat all that much. I waited till late in the day, I didn't have longer, relaxed vacation windows. Chad doesn't like to pay for a lot of money to go out to eat. So, we ate at the condo, which made him really happy. And I like to cook, so that was fine. I didn't mind. So, it wasn't like I had eaten a lot and refilled my glycogen stores. But then, the same thing happened from just two glasses of wine. It took me a few days to really get back to normal.

So, I would like to challenge you to delay alcohol, give it a month. I just want you to see. You'll know at the end of that month if it's making a difference or not, see how you feel on Monday. Don't change the weekend eating, just the drinking. And I want you to try that experiment and then write back and let us know. I'm just so curious if it might be as huge for you as it is for me. I knew that it made a difference for me when I was losing weight. Now, I have a hunch as to why. I haven't been able to find a lot of science out there, a lot of people writing about this idea of this-- the whole idea of being a fast alcohol metabolizer, slow metabolizer, whatever. But I think it could be an issue for a lot of people that maybe don't realize it.

Melanie Avalon: This is funny because I'm probably gonna say almost the exact opposite thing. But I think it's great because it's a lot of different approaches and we're all so different. So, I'll give you another perspective, Laura, maybe we can try it all out and see what works for you personally because like Gin said, we're all different. When I read this, I see that you're doing one meal a day, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Then, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, so not even one day, but the weekend, like she says, “Weekend Sabotage.”

Gin Stephens: Well, she fasts till 6:00 PM on Friday.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, Friday normal and then Saturday all day. And then, I'm assuming alcohol on Saturday. And then, Sunday--

Gin Stephens: She eats from 2:00 till dinner. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, still eating. Saturday and Sunday. Alcohol added on Friday, assuming alcohol on Saturday evening, and then eating basically all day Saturday and Sunday.

Gin Stephens: Well, Sunday, she fasts until Sunday afternoon around 2:00 and then have a healthy dinner. I'm not really sure what she does on Sunday. Sunday's confusing.

Melanie Avalon: She drinks whatever I want breakfast, lunch, dinner, because [unintelligible [00:53:57] eating three meals until Sunday afternoon around 2:00 and then have a healthy dinner. Oh, it sounds like she does that non-whole30 from all day, Saturday, Sunday, but then she jumps back into whole30 Sunday evening. That's how I'm reading it.

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah, she does say Friday night to Sunday afternoon later. So, you're right, that she does say that later. Friday night through Sunday afternoon.

Melanie Avalon: When I see this, I see Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, whole30, one meal a day. Then Friday, one meal a day, but alcohol, and then eating-- completely changing what you're eating and eating all day, Saturday, anything all day Sunday with alcohol throughout on the weekend. So, just seeing that objectively, the thing that really jumps out to me isn't the alcohol. It's the massive change in the food. It could be just the alcohol. Just like stepping back and this is like a crazy thought experiment and this is not meant to be taken literally. But if for example, you ate what you'd normally eat whole30 but all you did was add alcohol-- and don't do this, it's not I'm saying-- I'm going to extremes, just think about this. Even if you added like thousands and thousands and thousands of calories of alcohol to your preexisting whole30, you wouldn't store any of that alcohol. It wouldn't be healthy and would not be a good thing to do. But that's not actually going to create weight loss. Compared to eating thousands and thousands of calories, which we don't know if you're doing but switching from whole30 to eating whatever you want, especially with our modern processed food, it's really easy to take in a lot of calories, especially if you're in this mindset of weekends, like no whole30, like go big or go home. And you're not just going big or going home one day, which can often be really helpful, especially for people fasting every single day, one meal a day and then having an off day, but this is sort of starting on a Friday night, going in all day, Saturday, continuing Sunday, and not going back to normal until Sunday. So, that's a long time to switch your food choices from noninflammatory whole foods that even if say they're the same amount of calories of more processed foods, you probably extract less calories from them. This is a huge food shift is what I'm seeing. And on top of that, if whole30 is anti-inflammatory for you, that inflammation from food can also lead to a lot of weight gain, just from water retention and things like that.

So, what I would encourage you, alcohol could be playing-- It's ironic, I was even thinking it's possible that alcohol might even be slightly protective of weight gain because some people with alcohol actually are less likely to gain weight, some more likely but results are all over the board. And, yes, it was a rodent study, but my mind is still just being blown by that rodent study I read recently that came out this year pretty recently about rodents fed diets meant to make them gain weight and when they had alcohol with it, they didn't experience the metabolic issues that they did when they weren't having alcohol.

So, my advice would be to change just one variable to determine what the cause is. Well, there are a lot of ways you could go about this. Basically, what this is saying to me is you can't have your cake and eat it too. I don't think you can continue in this pattern if you want to not gain weight or not have to take-- it says it takes her until Thursday to get back to normal. If you want to break out of this pattern, something's going to have to change. So, you can try a lot of things. You can try cutting out the alcohol and still eating the same and see what happens. You might start losing weight, you might not change, you might even gain more weight. You could try still eating three meals and eating all time but keeping it whole30 foods that would be like a happy medium even with alcohol. Maybe that's like a baby step to try. Like still doing it but not just eating whatever you want but eating whole30 but eating whenever you want whole30 with alcohol. You could try maybe still doing one meal a day eating whatever foods you want but adding alcohol. There are a lot of things you could try, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion automatically that it's the alcohol. I think it's all of it together.

Gin Stephens: And for me, I would like to reiterate, I would try the alcohol first. It just from what I've learned about my own body. Also, alcohol makes me choose different foods. That's a point that-- you may find that just cutting out the alcohol for a month suddenly, you're not craving eating and drinking all those things. That would be what I would start with. But let us know what you do and what works.

Melanie Avalon: One last thought is taking in a lot of alcohol, obviously not good for the liver, you don't want to be overdrinking and binge-drinking and heavy drinking, that's not going to be healthy. That said, the long-term effects on body weight or fat storage or things like that are not necessarily-- because we don't know what she's eating, but she's eating whatever she wants and it is things like processed food, especially foods high and seed oils, high in inflammatory fats, and in a calorie excess and in a gaining weight situation, those fats are changing the composition of your fat cells if you're gaining weight. Actually, even not if you're gaining weight, if it's high in these inflammatory fats, it's a long-term change. A long-term thing you're going to have to deal with, compared to the short-term change of alcohol. There's just a lot more potential for “long-term damage,” I think. Unless you're binge-drinking crazy and you get psoriasis or something like that.

Gin Stephens: Well, for me, just realizing two glasses of wine one night kept me from getting into deep ketosis for days, versus I can eat more carbs and plenty of foods-- and my diet’s not as clean as yours by any means. I eat crackers out of a box. I'm sure I'm getting-- you would probably die at the number of seed oils I have. And the alcohol has made a huge difference for me to the point that I'm a little shocked by it. I'm surprised at what a big difference it's made. I'm disappointed that my body doesn't do well with alcohol because I really enjoy it, but I'm feeling so good without it.

Melanie Avalon: No, I 100% get it. I guess I just like to provide the other picture. Like I said, we know everybody's unique. So definitely, Laura, try it and report back and let us know what works. I just think if you can have alcohol in your life, especially looking at epidemiological studies, so many long live populations who are lean, healthy, have moderate alcohol intake, if it can be a part of your life and it's something you enjoy, I want it to be part of your life. And I guess I'm coming from the opposite perspective where I was drinking a lot of wine for a long time and it was not an issue at all for my weight, and then I cut it out-- I actually did gain weight when I cut it out, probably wasn't related. But now, I'm finally starting to drink wine again, and I'm so happy.

Gin Stephens: And you're a fast alcohol metabolizer, right?

Melanie Avalon: I think so. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, see, I really think that that is a key that people-- I don't think we know yet. I haven't been able to find anything. Maybe somebody knows. I just don't know. But to me, I really think that could be a huge factor. If someone is a slow alcohol metabolizer that maybe like the thing that's holding them back. I just know what a difference it's made for me all along, and the period of time when I lost weight the quickest was the period of time I wasn't drinking at all. But recently, the only thing I made, the only change I've made is alcohol. I haven't changed what I'm eating. And my Shapa is showing me slow weight loss.

Melanie Avalon: That's a huge key. The only thing you changed was alcohol. She's changing so much. She's changing the types of foods, the amount, the timing, and alcohol, that's four.

Gin Stephens: No, but I mean, but she's maintaining in this range she's with this protocol. What she's doing right now, is she can't lose any weight, she's doing this protocol. And her protocol is she eats really, really clean and then she stops for the weekend. But my point of what I was saying was, I haven't changed what I'm eating. I only took out alcohol before when I was losing two pounds a week when I was trying to get to goal, I changed what I was eating and the alcohol. So, but now, my point was to-- I'm trying to contrast those two times. Right now, I only took out the alcohol. I didn't change what I'm eating.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I get what you're saying. Yeah, so I was talking about something else. You were saying that that was the only factor, so it was the factor.

Gin Stephens: For me, back in 2015. I took out alcohol and changed what I was eating. So, I was eating really high-quality foods and not drinking, and I lost weight really quickly. Right now, I haven't changed what I've been eating from what I've been eating for the past year, I've been eating-- I did experiment with the lower fat a long time back this year just to see, but I feel better with more fat, but the only thing I've changed in the past two months is the alcohol.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because I guess because she changed four factors. She added alcohol, she's changing what she eats, how much she eats, and when she eats.

Gin Stephens: But what I'm saying is she needs to pick something to experiment with and pick one variable right now.

Melanie Avalon: So, change one variable, it's like what speaks to you. And you can try different things, so I was going to say if you want to try to start just change a few variables, You have to like look at your week-- So, what is important to you on the weekends that you want to keep in to make the weekend feel like a weekend. Is it the alcohol? Is it eating whatever type of food you want? Is it when you eat? Or is it how much you eat? Or is it a combination of those? And I would really think about it and try to find a happy medium where you can keep in what's most important to you and what makes you happiest on the weekends. But not doing all four of those because all four of those is not working.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, definitely, I want Laura to experiment and then write back and tell us what she tried and what worked.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Let us know.

Gin Stephens: Because you'll figure it out. There's a tweak that works.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and we have to mention though, if you do drink alcohol, Dry Farm Wines. Please, please.

Gin Stephens: I'm a big believer too. I'm going to continue to drink alcohol here and there just not as part of my daily life. I'm not going to be a drink around the house kind of person, I don't think. But it's going to be Dry Farm because now Chad is also hooked on it.

Melanie Avalon: I just got my sister hooked on it. I'm so excited.

Gin Stephens: Chad's a believer.

Melanie Avalon: I want to get my dad hooked on it because that's where I get my love of wine from and he's not like alcoholic or anything but he drinks wine every night. And I'm just like, “Oh, I need to get him drinking Dry Farm Wines.” Basically, their wines are low sugar, low alcohol. They're tested to be free of toxins, free of mold. They grow all throughout Europe. There's no California wines or US wines because none of the US wines meet their standards. That's how pervasive pesticides are in the US, which is really upsetting, even on organic farms. So, they go throughout Europe and they test individually all the wineries to find wines meeting their standards, even if the wineries don't necessarily have an organic stamp. So, you can get a bottle for a penny at dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast.

Gin Stephens: You have to get used to it because it's so different than wine you're used to but once you get used to it, you'll drink a standard wine and you're like, “Oh.” At first, when you try Dry Farm Wines, you're going to say, “This is different,” but it has a cleaner mouthfeel, it's so different. And one thing I want to point out, it's lower alcohol than standard ones, but it's still enough alcohol to bother me if I drink too much of it, or to drink it a lot.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, all of their wine is 12.5% or less. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. You can ask your own questions to us just directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode, which we talked about a lot of things, so definitely check those out, the scale, the grounding shoes, Dry Farm Wines, studies, all the things. That will be at ifpodcast.com/182. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @IFPodcast. You can follow me, I'm at @MelanieAvalon. And you can follow Gin, she's @GinStephens. I think that's all she wrote.

Gin Stephens: Yep, that's all.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No. I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on this show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 181 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 181 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am fabulous. I am just immersed in all sorts of amazing data and learning about myself.

Melanie Avalon: Would you like to elaborate?

Gin Stephens: I would. Melanie knows, because she knows what I'm doing. But for readers of Fast. Feast. Repeat., and even readers of Feast Without Fear, I've been talking about personalized nutrition ever since I first saw that famous TED Talk that I talked about, with Dr. Eran Segal. I saw it first in 2017 and it literally changed my life, to understand that we all have personalized responses to foods. Some of it's based on our genetic background, but a lot of it is our gut microbiome, and really just our hormonal health in general.

In Fast. Feast. Repeat., I talked about the work that Tim Spector is doing. He's my favorite gut microbiome researcher from the UK. And he had a study called the PREDICT Study, and then the PREDICT 2 Study, which some of my friends did a year ago. And I am now participating in the third round of this, PREDICT 3. It's with an app called Zoe, and he's one of the collaborators with it. But as part of the study, for the past seven days, I've been wearing a continuous blood glucose monitor that they sent me, and I have to send it back which is so sad because, man, is it eye-opening to see how my body responds to different foods, with my blood glucose so I can see what it's doing all during the day, all during the night, how it goes up, how it goes down, how it responds to foods. I'm so happy to report that, I'm not surprised, the foods that I thought that worked well for me, guess what?

Melanie Avalon: They work well?

Gin Stephens: They do.

Melanie Avalon: So, are you eating some of their stuff and your stuff?

Gin Stephens: Well, I had to do that for two days. There were two days where I had to start the day eating these muffins that they sent me. Oh, my Lord. Okay, yuck. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, we wanted to record the podcast earlier, but Gin was like, “I can't record a podcast after eating the muffin.”

Gin Stephens: I was right. I was predicting that. It was before I had even eaten the muffins, but I had a feeling because I had to eat them in the morning because, see, you couldn't have anything before the muffins except water. I'd wake up in the morning and drink black coffee. So, I had to eat the muffins and then wait four hours and then eat the-- they were actually different muffins and then wait two hours and then I could have real food. The first day of that, I opened at 8:00 AM, and I never eat at 8:00 AM, even on vacation. If I'm going to have breakfast, we usually end up doing more of a brunch. So, I can't think of the last time I've had food at 8:00 AM. But I had to eat, I think, it was three muffins that had been frozen and then I microwaved them. And the first round of muffins, I think they're testing fat clearance, like how quickly your body clears out fat after you eat a high-fat meal. These were high-fat muffins. They are high fat because you could tell by reading the ingredients list. You would not have probably eaten these muffins.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to say, “This is not a Melanie study.”

Gin Stephens: No, you probably wouldn't have eaten the muffins, but the first ingredient was like safflower oil or something.

Melanie Avalon: Oh gosh!

Gin Stephens: I know. I know. I know. But I ate the muffins and then I was so crabby for those three hours because they weren't satisfying at all. If I could have put some butter on there or some strawberry jam, but no. They tasted like a mix between a cornbread muffin and pound cake, but with less flavor. So, then the second set of muffins, they were like gluten-free-ish, I don't know, low-fat muffins. But my blood glucose responded great to both sets of muffins. I had to do this blood test, where I had to squeeze out all this blood onto this card and send it off to be-- Anyway, they're going to test the, I think, my fat clearance because you had to do it a certain number of hours after that and it gives you a lot of information. Oh, I also had to send in a poop sample.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's right up my alley.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, so that was interesting. It was a little more hardcore than the one I did for the American Gut Project. I won't go into details, but it was interesting, let's just say. And then I took them all to the post office and mail them in. That was also fun. This guy behind me is like, “What's on your arm?” It was my continuous blood glucose monitor. And I thought that was a very bold question to ask a stranger at the post office, but I explained it. But I should have said, “This is poop in this box,” but I didn't. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Is putting it on hard?

Gin Stephens: It was actually so very easy. I was scared, but I did it. You stick it to the back of your arm and this little thing, and you just go click and then it just pops in. It was easier than the fingerstick.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I have two brands of CGM I'm vetting right now, and I haven't done either one yet.

Gin Stephens: Well, this information is just so important, I think, because it showed me-- like I had one meal that I've eaten so far that did not work very well for me. It was the only one and it was a flatbread topped with a lemon ricotta, and then sauteed brussels sprouts, and then like Parmesan cheese and then hot honey. That one shot my blood glucose up higher than anything has so far, probably the honey. But when I've eaten potatoes, when I've eaten rice, even toast with egg on top, I have a very slow, steady rise and then a slow steady back down. Yeah, I think that flatbread didn't have a lot of fat with it. I mean it had some fat, but I probably normally have more fat with my carbs. So, it just kind of spiked me right up.

Melanie Avalon: Fascinating.

Gin Stephens: So fascinating. But, yeah, I feel like this is what's so sad to me. These monitors are by prescription only, and the only way to get a prescription from your doctor for most people for insurance to pay for it, it's for you to already be really sick. But for somebody who's healthy, this can help you know what is leading you to a healthier profile for yourself. So, it seems to me like they would want to put these in the hands of people who are healthy as a preventative measure. I guess that's not the place we are right now yet. But I think this is one of the most exciting preventative tools ever, understanding how your body responds to things.

For example, one day, I had my normal snack and then I had some coconut water. My blood glucose went up pretty high after the coconut water based on what I had prior to that. Whereas another day when I had a snack, waited a couple hours, then had the coconut water, I had a very mild increase.

Melanie Avalon: Well, you know the problem with using this as preventative?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know the problem of that. No, what is that?

Melanie Avalon: Because we would eradicate a lot of the need for the medical system if we switch to being preventative.

Gin Stephens: I don't think that they're all just back there with their nefarious plan to keep us hooked on the medical system. I don't know. I don't. I don't think they are. I think that they want to want us to be healthy. They want to help us. I mean, maybe big pharma, okay. But the doctors want us to be better. They want us to be healthy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I meant more big pharma. Yeah, like implementation of policy into everything.

Gin Stephens: Well, okay, policy is a whole different ball of wax. But it's really sad that I'm going to have to send it back. It's not a toy. It's not a plaything. It's not, “Oh, this is fun.” It's like, wow, this is powerful data that is teaching me so many important things.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I love it. I'm excited to try mine. I was going to do it earlier, but then, as Gin knows, I got surgery, fixed my deviated septum to breathe better. Listeners, Gin was right.

Gin Stephens: Gin was right. Let's just say that, “Gin was right.”

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “I'll be fine.” And Gin was like, “It's going to be really awful.”

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: I was right.

Melanie Avalon: And it was really awful.

Gin Stephens: I knew it would be.

Melanie Avalon: It was so terrible. I basically just stayed on the couch and watched Disney movies, all of the live-action versions of all the Disney movies, like Aladdin and Mulan. Spoiler alert, the new live-action Mulan does not have singing.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: It's very upsetting.

Gin Stephens: I would probably like it better.

Melanie Avalon: Probably, you would.

Gin Stephens: That sounds cool. I'm going to watch it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it was really, really tragic. But, no, I would go to get the mail and I was done for the day. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Any anything like that.

Melanie Avalon: I just felt like I was dying. I had to reevaluate. I was like, “Okay, what tools do I have to support my health, getting back on recovering," because I can't do my sauna, can't do exercise. I think that's the worst, is knowing you can't lift heavy things. That's what I thrive on, is lifting, and I can't get my heart rate up. So, I couldn't do my cold showers, can't do my sauna, couldn't breathe, so can't do my breathing. I was like, “I have nothing.” It stopped taking NMN and NR, the precursors to NAD. I started taking that again because we talked about Elysium, I think,before on the show.

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, it could have been a coincidence. But when I started taking that I started feeling a lot better.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's good.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know if it just happened to be a timeline, coincidence that that's how it lined up. I'm taking it for life, not stopping this time. For listeners. I'll put links to all of that in the show notes. But that's that.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm glad that you're on the mend. So, you're feeling like yourself again?

Melanie Avalon: Getting there. Excited to breathe because breathing is everything.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it is. I had my adenoids taken out in, gosh, 1991. I was 21, I guess, when I had the surgery done, and I remember it being terrible.

Melanie Avalon: Because that's on your nose too? Was that on your nose?

Gin Stephens: It's between your nose and your tonsils.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. I was just doing a lot of contemplations about anesthesia. It's so weird.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I hate anesthesia. Hate it.

Melanie Avalon: And then, I started having memories that I'm not sure if they're real memories. I thought I blacked out. Or I thought stopped remembering things at a certain point. But then, I started remembering things from the OR room before the surgery that I hadn't remembered for, and I was like, “Wait, so if I think about this enough, I like remember everything.”

Gin Stephens: Oh, I don't want to. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It's very, very scary. In any case.

Gin Stephens: Well, hooray for breathing. That's good.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off, we have a follow-up email from Bronwyn who wrote into the show before. And the subject is “Thank You.” And Bronwyn says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, thank you so much for answering my question in Episode 174. Every time I listen and hear you say hello to me, Gin. I grin from ear to ear and say hello, back out loud.”

Gin Stephens: Hello.

Melanie Avalon: “I'm glad you both like my name. It's Scottish.” She says her mother spent two years in the UK in the late 60s before she got married. She says, “I loved your air conditioner thermostat analogy, Gin.” And for listeners, that was I think about--

Gin Stephens: Her weight setpoint.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, right.

Gin Stephens: It was about how your body tries to keep you at a certain weight setpoint. That's what I think.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, she says, “However, I already know my air conditioner/body is broken and I need to find the answer to healing before it can adjust to match the thermostat. What I really wanted to know is the mechanism of how it manages to not lose weight. Melanie, you covered it. And I guess for me, the likely answer is I'm making glucose from protein after I run out of fuel from each previous meal.” Just really quickly to that, I'm not necessarily saying that, I guess, I don't know. I don't know if like the reason you're losing weight is because you're making glucose from protein. But basically, what we talked about is, you can be fasted or seemingly you think you'd be burning fat but actually the liver is upregulating gluconeogenesis and producing blood sugar from protein. A lot of things can go on in your body.

She says, “Thank you so much for taking so much time to discuss the possible ways forward. It took a weight off me that you thought more or longer fasting was not the answer. I don't enjoy ADF at the moment. May interest you, Melanie, to know that I came to IF from seven years of a diet called Trim Healthy Mama.” Have you heard of that, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I have heard of it just because I've been in these groups for so many years. But here's what's so cool. I didn't have to do that one because I was already doing intermittent fasting when it got really popular. So, if it had come out earlier, I'm sure I would have done it.

Melanie Avalon: Probably would have done it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but because it came out-- I'd never heard of it until after I did intermittent fasting, so I never had to try it.

Melanie Avalon: It's nice. Although the concept she talks about is something I personally apply because she says, “Which is based on separating fuels, fat, and carbs into different meals. I listened several times to your interview with Cyrus and Robby, and it's so very interesting. I recognize that the ideal would be to pick a fuel and stick with it. I have not eaten PUFAs since I started it.”

Gin Stephens: Can I hop in? Oh, go ahead. I just wanted to say, I think this is where it's so important to know your body. I haven't tested a meal that's completely carbs with no fat yet because even the one yesterday that cause my blood glucose to go up so much higher, had less fat, but it still had some fat. But I do plan to try a meal that's it's even more carbs than that just to see what that does too. But for me, when I have-- the meals that I've been testing that I've done so well with have plenty of carbs and plenty of fat. So, I think for me having the fat and carbs together, I've always said that that works really well for me, but it's showing up also in the way my blood glucose is responding.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think it's definitely really individual. Gin, you just have epic, epic metabolism, blood sugar control processing of fuels.

Gin Stephens: If I went in there right now after we finished recording, I have these pretzels with, I don't know, this cinnamon, sugar, yogurt coating on there that someone sent me. If I went in and just ate those on an empty stomach, I'm pretty sure that's mostly carbs. It's very sugary. I'm pretty sure my blood glucose would spike up really fast and crash back down. I'm probably not going to do that, but I don't like the way it feels. But I just naturally gravitate towards-- I wouldn't go and just eat a bunch of crackers by themselves. I would put cheese with them because I know that I feel better when I do that. I don't feel well if I just had a cookie, for example. I just know that the fat really helps my body process the carbs. People know. If you know that when you eat something you feel terrible after you eat it, there's something going on in your body that is telling you that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 100%.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, I just had to pop that in there. You were going to say something about that too?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, we're all individual. For me, I really benefit from separating the fats versus the carbs. And I'm just going to say she said she hasn't eaten PUFAs, which are polyunsaturated fats since she started it. I interviewed Cate Shanahan, Gin. She wrote Deep Nutrition, which was a book that both Gin and I read and really, really appreciated. But she wrote a new book called Fatburn Fix that I talked about, I think, at length on the show, but it's really all about polyunsaturated fats. So, I think when this comes out, that episode might be out. So, I will put a link to it in the show notes. But she was really great.

Her focus in college was fatty acid metabolism. I was like, “Oh my goodness. That's what I'm obsessed with.” So, yep. Anyways, back to Bronwyn. She says, “After a lifetime of dieting, I'm not sure whether I'm ready to go back to that. Gin, thank you for the freedom of IF. But Melanie, I recognize that you're the type of person who enjoys control over what you eat. And that's great.”

Gin Stephens: I have to log everything that I'm eating in the Zoe app for this study, and it is making me die, like having to lock it. And then, I put some Triscuits on my plate, and I was going to eat them and I was like, “I have to count them,” and then it was like there were nine and then I had to put it the serving size but the box the serving size was six and so I had to put in either one serving or two, and I couldn't-- So I was like, I just ate three more. But I was like, “This is crazy.” I hate, hate, hate to log. Even though I'm eating what I want, having to write it down is just making me get crazy. Anyway, but it's data, I'm learning.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I want to address that because I don't like logging or all of that. My aspect of control-- because I found that interesting that she said that because I do wonder how I come across, so hearing that is interesting. I just like having control over my particular-- I think I'm just more selective in what I eat because of how my body--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I was going to use the word choosy. Choosy with ingredients. You would not have eaten those muffins. You would have been like, “I'm sorry, I can't participate in this study.” Where I like ate them and was crabby about it all day but did it.

Melanie Avalon: That was one thing I loved. I did interview Wim Hof as well. And he has a whole thing about control, and he's talking about how, at least when it comes to our mind, having control over our mind is actually the ultimate freedom because when you control your mind, that is freedom. And I thought that was a nice paradigm shift. Back to our email.

She says, “At the same time that episode aired, I also got the results of blood tests with the doctor I finally found who do proper thyroid testing. My thyroid function is healthy. Go figure.” But she said it did show that she was low on progesterone, she started taking that. She's planning on giving herself a month or so on progesterone before making any changes. But after that, she says, “If I am still stalled, I would like to try to concentrate more on separating fuels for a while. As I said, I simply can't face picking one and sticking with it forever. But, Melanie, a brief question for you. Would it be enough to separate them by full days, i.e., one day fat-based, the next carb based or do I have to man up and pick one to stick with until I get to the goal or break the stall, but not forever.”

The concept of not combining fuels because of having efficient metabolism of that meal because what we're referring to is basically there's something called the Randle cycle, which is carbs and fat, and they compete-- basically, if you have both at the same time, it's not super-efficient, especially for people who struggle to have metabolic flexibility and handle different types of macronutrients. And then, there's also the potential issues of carbs and fat competing or messing up insulin receptors. I'm just hypothesizing or theorizing, but I think as long as the last meal has cleared, like Gin was talking about that meal with a muffin, or that muffin, maybe potentially be testing how long it takes like fat clearance from the blood, I think that would probably be an indicator of how long in between you need to go. I think probably switching back and forth between days is totally fine. It's more-- and some people do this but if this is really what you're trying to look at, and you want to switch between like low-carb, high-fat and high-fat, low-carb, I would separate them by days. I wouldn't do the morning one and then the evening another. I would probably separate by days.

She wants to know like, “Should you go longer until she breaks the plateau?” Honestly, you just have to try different things. So, maybe you could try a week where you do switch back and forth on different days or maybe you feel intuitive about it like, “Oh, today I feel like I want it to be a high-carb, low-fat day compared to a low-carb, high-fat day." Did I say that right? You guys know what I'm saying. Or you could try sticking one out. It's really going to have just be self-experimentation.

Last thing she says is, “Something interesting happened since her previous email, I had thousands of dollars' worth of horse gear stolen from my tack shed and it was very stressful. I immediately went from ADF to barely managing 16:8. I've gradually worked back to 20:4 now, but I was 16:8 or 17:7 for a few weeks. And I was sure that I would gain weight, but I only gained up to the top of the 3-kilogram range that I've been in since December. Then, I dropped back to the middle of that range where I'm sitting now. So, my statement that I gained without ADF appears to be wrong, or maybe some healing has happened.” And then, she says, “Thanks, again, for your comprehensive answer to my question.”

Yeah. So, two little things we could talk about in there, is when people have stressful events, and then feeling the need to lengthen their eating window. Nothing wrong with that. Do you thoughts about that?

Gin Stephens: It's true, we do hear that. Right now, a lot of the group members who live in the western United States are having a very stressful time with the fires and having to evacuate. And so, we've had a number of posts of people who are just overwhelmed from the stress of it. And some of them are like, “I've leaned into my fasting practice, and that has helped me deal with the stress.” Whereas some others are saying, “I've had to just relax my fasting time because that's helping me.” Neither is wrong. It's all about just what your body and how you can deal with that, that stress of the moment.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 100%. I think a lot of people probably experience that as well, where the more you've been doing intermittent fasting, you may find that when it changes or you lengthen the window, and then you come back to it, the more you've work the muscle, it can be easier to jump back in and see results potentially faster.

Gin Stephens: Your body doesn't have to start from day one all over again. Maybe if you stopped for years, but not if it's just a matter of days, weeks, even months.

Melanie Avalon: One thing I think we talked about with Dr. Cate on that episode was she was talking about fasting because we've talked so much about how the body can hormonally adapt, and it can do all at once to shut down fat burning, or try to maintain a certain body weight. But fasting is the one approach where, even if it does try to make counter-regulatory mechanisms to stop weight loss, it's like the one thing where it really does force your body to tap into things. As long as I feel like eating throughout the day, your body can just wait for the next thing.

Gin Stephens: That's true. Slow it down a little. That's how I felt that day that I was eating those muffins. I felt like somebody who was on a typical calorie-controlled, low-calorie day where you have your little crazy low-calorie breakfast, and then you have to wait and eat your crazy low-calorie lunch muffins, oh, my Lord, I was like, “I'm really hungry.” Thanks to intermittent fasting, there's never a time where I'm starving and not allowed to eat, ever, ever. I just go through the fast every day. If I felt super starving on one day, I would just go ahead and eat, but I don't. But if I did, I would, but I couldn't. It was so crazy. It really hearkened back to those diet days where I was following a rule. And I could not eat because I was following the directions of the study.

Melanie Avalon: That sounds really miserable.

Gin Stephens: It was eye opening. I followed my husband around and talked to him a lot that day. I think he ran out the door back to work. But I was like, “I'm so hangry. This is just like being on a diet.” It reminds me but it helped me remember, thank goodness, I never have to be hungry and not eat again, unless I do another study or something. But it's the freedom of that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's amazing.

Gin Stephens: The day that I ate the most was the day I was the hungriest all day long. So, think about that people

Melanie Avalon: I know. That’s the way it is. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: All right. Well, great to hear from you Bronwyn. I'm glad you're tweaking and figuring things out. And sorry about that horrible theft of the horse gear.

Melanie Avalon: I know, that's really terrible, speaking from experience when getting things stolen. Really, really terrible.

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And now back to the show.

This one is from Eric and the subject is “ADF and Vitamin D.” Eric says, “I have seen evidence that suggests vitamin D is critical in the fight against COVID-19. With vitamin D being fat soluble, it is recommended to be taken with meals. I am doing ADF and would like to know what is the best way to supplement vitamin D on my down day. I am currently taking vitamin D with breakfast and dinner on my up days, but don't know if this is the best way. What would you recommend? Thanks for all you do. IF is changing my life. Love you, ladies. Thanks, Eric.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Eric. So, thanks for your questions. Yes, the vitamin D connection, especially to COVID susceptibility and just our immune system is huge, like huge. Having vitamin D levels up seems to be so important, and one of the sad or unfortunate things is that with the quarantine situation, a lot of us are staying even more indoors and getting less outside sun exposure as well. So, vitamin D supplementation could definitely help. It is fat soluble. I take a brand by Thorne, I think it's an MCT oil carrier. So, I would recommend to having it with your breakfast and dinner on your up days. And I would recommend still taking it on your down days, that small amount, I don't see a problem with, breaking fast or whatever. You also definitely want to take the D3 form, which is in the Thorne version that I use. So, I'll put a link to that. Gin, do you have thoughts?

Gin Stephens: I just read that yesterday. Tim Spector that I was talking about earlier doing the gut work, the PREDICT studies. He has a new book, Spoon-Fed is the name of his new book, and I read his other book, The Diet Myth years ago. Oh my gosh, funny story, Melanie, by the way, he and I must have read the exact same studies because-- and thank goodness, my book came out first because his calories chapter in Spoon-Fed was like the same exact examples I gave. He talked about the nuts. He talked about the meat. He talked about the cheese sandwich. He didn't go into as much detail about the cheese sandwich as I did. But he talked about the NOVA food classification scale. It was fabulous. But his book came out in August. So, there's no way I could have copied him. I was like, “This looks like I plagiarized him,” but I did not. If you're reading the same studies, I guess it would get you the same information.

Anyway, he has a chapter on supplements and he's a doctor in addition to being a researcher, and he has a great chapter on supplements in that book. And he said he used to always recommend that people take vitamin D supplements as a physician, but now, after everything he's researched, he believes the best way to get it is just get out in the sun, and I know that some parts of the year, you can't. He lives in the UK, so he just gets 15 minutes of sun on his skin and gets his vitamin D like that. So, anyway, I just read that yesterday, which is why I'm popping that in there. Just something to consider instead of taking it as a supplement-- I'm not going to tell you not to take it as a supplement, but maybe on your down day, just go outside.

Melanie Avalon: There's also an app when I had Robb Wolf on that he's obsessed with, and it's called dminder, I think. I’ll put a link to it. But apparently, so you put in your skin type and your location.

Gin Stephens: And where you live. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And it tells you exactly when to go outside for how long to get the optimal amount of vitamin D absorption.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that I could live with. That is a fabulous-- Okay, I got to find that out, dminder.

Melanie Avalon: dminder. So, we'll put a link in the show notes.

Gin Stephens: I just thought it was interesting to see Tim Spector’s analysis because he said that the more he's learned about supplements, the fewer supplements he would ever take or recommend.

Melanie Avalon: That's the way I feel, honestly. I've done a lot of research on vitamin D supplementation, and it's complicated because it's hard to know. A lot of the studies find that people supplementing have potentially worse outcomes, but I think it's because the people supplementing, they were low, they're not the robust people with the high vitamin D to start with. So, it's really complicated. It's hard to know what is the causative factor there.

Gin Stephens: What did he say? Let me see if I can say what the way he said it. “The disease causes the deficiency, rather than the deficiency causing the disease.” I think that was something he said like that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm thinking about this a lot. I love that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, but then you measure it and you're like, “Oh, look, you're deficient. And you have this disease, the deficiency caused the disease,” when really the disease caused the deficiency.

Melanie Avalon: It's really interesting. I'm prepping right now for, I think it's the Caltons, they wrote Rebuild Your Bones. And their theory is that pretty much all disease is from micronutrient deficiency. It's just funny because they have the exact opposite theory. So, they would say that it's backwards. They would say-- may probably do say almost that exact sentence that the deficiency causes the disease, not the disease caused the deficiency-- Oh.

Gin Stephens: I know. And look, all these people are respected in their field, respected researchers. And he talks a lot in Spoon-Fed about the problem with studies and misinterpreting studies and how short they are and how little we really know. I think that's just important. And that's what he does. He's a researcher, so finding good studies and really making something that will apply.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know, after hearing some stories about studies, I'm just-- it's hard to know, it's hard to know.

Gin Stephens: It really is, it really is. And just one thing that I love from him so much is the whole-- we're all different. That is just so key. And the more people that can start to understand this, the better. There is no one best way to eat. And the science is showing that over and over and over and more and more, that you have to take things with a grain of salt, in even studies.

Melanie Avalon: Where did that phrase come from? Every time I hear that, I wonder where that came from.

Gin Stephens: I don't know, maybe like the ancient Romans or something? Because they used salt for currency. I don't know I just made that up. Maybe someone will write in and tell us.

Melanie Avalon: Or maybe it's because salt makes things more palatable.

Gin Stephens: Oh, maybe, it does make food delicious.

Melanie Avalon: Who knows?

Gin Stephens: That's probably it.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: You're probably right. All right. Well, Eric, I don't know if we helped you or not, but I'm going to get that dminder. That's a great idea.

Melanie Avalon: Definitely.

Gin Stephens: Because I really would rather get it from the sun, just from what I've read.

Melanie Avalon: I would too. I was going to even say I should probably be controversial and say--

Gin Stephens: Tanning bed.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I knew you were going to say that. [laughs] I was waiting for it.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I'm just going to say it. I do think getting a membership at a tanning place-- And I'm being very specific with this doing just the UVB beds, which are going to be the cheaper beds anyway, and literally going in for, I'm saying like a minute.

Gin Stephens: Your goal is not to be tanned. Your goal is to get the rays, the UVB.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because I really think vitamin D is huge.

Gin Stephens: Now, when we talked about this early on, maybe in 2017 and you said that, we got some pretty irate emails from people that were upset, but I guess our listeners now know that if you are suggesting something, you have researched it fully and are not worried about the dangers.

Melanie Avalon: Definitely, whenever you do a tanning bed, of course, there is the concern or the risk of skin cancer but I think in the grand scheme of things, in the overall picture, especially during the winter months when we're not getting sun exposure outside, weighing the cost-benefit for a lot of people, I think it's probably more beneficial to do very low-dose UVB bed, only going for like a minute, doing that. I don't know how often, but I found it was cheaper-- because some of the places have unlimited monthly, but I found was actually cheaper at least where I went, which I think was Palm Beach Tan, you could buy like credits, so like packages, and that was what turned out to be cheapest.

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And now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to the next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's go on to the next one.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, the next question comes from Mandy. The subject is "Food Choices." And Mandy says, “I love your show, and I find it so helpful. I can't stop listening. And I just learned something new and intriguing each time I listen. So, thank you both for all the time and research you do in helping all of us who are on this journey to a better healthier me.” She says, “I've been IFing since January 1st, 2020.” Just thinking about January 1st, 2020, who knew that 2020 was going to be what it is.

Gin Stephens: Nobody.

Melanie Avalon: I know. She says, “I have no doubt this is the health plan, I won't say diet, that I feel is the way of life for me and what I know will be best for me long term. I started out doing 16:8 and eventually to 18:6. For about a two-week period, I was doing 20:4 and I did one 24-hour fast. I had a couple setbacks around Easter and again after my husband and I returned from vacation in July. So now, I typically do 18 to 19 hours fasting with a five- to seven-hour eating window. I do 16:8 on the weekends. I have not lost much weight in nine months. I'm fluctuating between five pounds. I admit, I haven't been doing pictures routinely or measuring but when I did last, I had lost inches. I lose the five pounds and then I gain it back usually because of a date night splurge with my husband each week."

She says, “My question is this. I feel like I'm obsessing about what to eat all the time. I'm constantly thinking about what should I open my window with? What should I make for dinner? I would love to open my window with the same type of thing daily to keep it simple for me when I am at work. I'm a nurse practitioner and I don't really have time to think about food when I'm at work, but I find myself doing it anyway. I also work all kinds of shifts, which makes it a little difficult to be consistent. When it's time to open my window, I'm ready to eat anything and everything. I also have the influences of people wanting to eat out when I am at work. Then when I need to eat dinner with my family, it's like I'm too full to eat the big meal we desire during this time, resulting in most likely me overeating in my window. I would love to eat cleaner. So, I am trying to do that. I also recently submitted a food sensitivity test and I'm waiting for results on that which I know will help determine what causes me inflammation.

How do I stop obsessing about what I should be eating each day? What are the best things to open my window with, so I feel satisfied but I'm not ruining my meal later? Examples of what I've been doing in the past, avocado toast on a low-carb tortilla with bagel seasoning and cheese, and Diet Energy V8, which has 2 grams of carbs, spicy bean, veggie burger and butternut squash spirals or rice cauliflower, crackers/cheese and veggies. I snack on nuts, cheese, or have an apple, but often cave to the junk snacks everywhere in my office that is not supplied by me, which are constantly in my face. Can you give any advice as to where to start? I know everyone is different and you can't tell what my body wants.”

We just talked about that. She says, “But I just want to stop thinking about foods so much and stressing about what to eat. Thanks in advance. And sorry for the long email question.” I love this question. So, Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Well, it sounds like to me that the approach that you're doing right now is a great maintenance protocol for your body because that's what's happening. You're not losing weight, you're fluctuating between those five pounds up and down, and you're having pretty flexible weekends with 16:8. I can tell you that if I did 16:8 every weekend when I was trying to lose weight, I would not have lost weight because I needed shorter eating windows. And I know the not-fun part is that when your goal is weight loss, you do need to be more mindful even on the weekends. I talked about that in Delay, Don't Deny, Saturday is not a special occasion because it happens every week because that was always my biggest stumbling block until I finally was like, “Okay, I've got to crack down on this to lose the weight.” So, I needed a tighter window to lose weight. And it sounds like to me, Mandy, that might be true for you as well.

You mention that your shifts are different all the time and that your struggle seems to be at work. So, I don't really know if this is feasible or not, because I don't know how long your work shifts are. But when I was a teacher, I was at school for eight hours, most days eight hours, some days longer. If we had a faculty meeting, I could be there for 10 hours, or if we had a special event after school. I did not eat until I got home from work. I just didn't because you're exactly right, Mandy. I am pretty sure probably the food that you have around you is the same kind of food that I had around me as a teacher in the teachers’ workroom, not good stuff, just junk food all around. People would bring in treats, we would have sweet treat day, where people would bring in doughnuts. It was just all over the place. And it was also very unusual for us to get to go out to lunch, that was only on like a teacher workday. So that was not really something I had as a challenge. But it was so much easier. I didn't take food with me, I didn't eat what was there unless it was a very special occasion and the food had to be worth it. But I just didn't eat at work.

And I would go to work, I worked my eight hours, my 10 hours if it was a faculty meeting day, and then I came home and then I opened my window and I ate. And it was just so easy. Then on the weekend, I would probably have a five-hour window or so, open in the earlier afternoon, and then have a good dinner later. If I were trying to lose weight, two full meals on a Saturday and the Sunday would not have done it for me. I would have been weight stable doing that. When you get to maintenance, you can be more flexible, but you've got to tap into those fat stores and have some reason to burn them.

So, if you haven't read Fast. Feast. Repeat., I would read that. And I would focus on the Feast section. Also, there's an Intermittent Fasting Toolbox chapter that could really help you and then Tweak It Till It's Easy. And you just really want to find what you need to do to get that weight to start coming off. And so, what you're doing now isn't really it. I think that would be where I would start. You're very focused on what to eat, what to eat, what to eat. I used to be like that to thinking that if I could just find the magical foods that would be the key. And I've realized, “Yes, food is important,” but I never lost weight on the magical foods. It was always on more of the when. Real food, yes.

Now, I will say choosing real food over the junky food, that's huge. But overstressing on whether it's rice cauliflower or nuts, I would do less stressing about that. Eliminating the junk snacks, yes, eating real food, real food that is delicious.

Melanie Avalon: I don't even know how much she stressed about trying to lose weight as much as her just obsession about thinking about food all the time and what to eat.

Gin Stephens: Well she did say she hasn't lost much weight in nine months and she's fluctuating between five pounds and I think that is part of her struggle.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well she said she lost inches but that she gains back and forth this five pounds because of date nights. She feels like she's obsessing about what to eat all the time and it's like, “What should I open my window with? What should they make for dinner?” So, I'm glad you said that, Gin, about how when you were a teacher, you just didn't eat, while you were working. Because that's what I was going to suggest, Mandy, is it actually feels to me like-- this kind of goes back to what Bronwyn was saying about the control aspects. But often when we're in a nebulous gray zone, and it depends on your personality type. But for a lot of people, if they are in a nebulous gray zone about what they are or aren't eating, it just leads to a lot of stressing about what to eat, like decision fatigue, because you don't have like a clear boundary about anything that you can just stick to.

So, I would suggest trying to actually come up with some more rules that you can stick to surrounding everything and know that you can change the rules. So, you can try different things, but maybe coming up with more black and white rules about everything, and then not breaking them. I'm not saying you're bingeing, and I wish this book wasn't called this, but in the book Never Binge Again, by Glenn Livingston, he talks a lot about this, and about the importance of just coming up with like a plan and sticking to it, and then not listening to that voice in the head that's trying to do different things or convince you to-- she talks about caving to junk snacks in the office everywhere. For that, you just make a rule that you're not going to eat the junk snacks. So, it's not like-- and I know that sounds like really simple, but if you want to really try to make this work and not have this issue of feeling like you are constantly being controlled by these questions of what to eat, and should I eat this, or should I not eat this? So, coming up with some rules like you're not getting snacks at work, you're just not, you're not, it's not an option.

And then, I do like the idea of tightening up the window. So, you're talking about opening with these different snacks-- you're trying to find snacks you can open with, but then also still eat your hearty meal later. I will say for me, we're all different, and she even says we're all different, but eating things like nuts, or avocado or stuff like that, if I were to eat that as a snack, I would be way less hungry later. So, if you do want to still have some sort of snack, but still be hungry later, I would suggest thinking more about that. And maybe doing things like not cheese, not nuts, not stuff like that, doing more just maybe vegetables or fruits or something like that.

Gin Stephens: And can I pop in? Some people actually find that, to the point that you just made, they can't open with a snack and then have a meal later. They do better to just open with their meal. You open with a meal and then have a snack later. Even though you want to eat dinner with your family and you're too full to eat the big meal then, maybe consider the meal with your family as the snack time and that you're only going to just have a little bit-- you're still eating together, you're just having a smaller portion. Just because it's a big meal, you don't have to eat the big meal. You can have some of the big meal.

Melanie Avalon: So, if she does that, are you saying she still has another meal?

Gin Stephens: I'm saying, open with your meal. Open with a meal. Whatever time you open, instead of trying to open with a snack and then have a big meal later, open with a big meal and then have something more snack-ish later, but you can sit down with your family and whatever they're eating as that dinner can be your snack. Does that make sense? Let's say you've made, I don't know, chili. You're having chili and baked potatoes with the family. I just made that up. That doesn't sound like what she would eat but I would. Chili and backed potatoes, back in the day, when I was cooking for my family. Just have a little bit of potato and a small serving of chili because you've already eaten your large meal earlier. Some people need to open with their large meal and then have a snack later if they're still hungry. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon: It does. Alternatively, could she try to cut the snack and just make the meal with the family, the big meal?

Gin Stephens: Totally. She totally could. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I was a little bit unclear about the avocado and all that stuff. But it sounds like she's talking about that being snacks and--

Gin Stephens: And like what she's taken to work. It sounds like she's taken that to work to have it at work. I don't know. It's hard to tell.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I think she's opening her window at work.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, she does say, “I snack on nuts, cheese, or have an apple, often cave to junk snacks.”

Gin Stephens: If I tried to have a little tiny snack at work, I would probably then be starving and caving and eating the junk snacks too. That's why it was so much easier just to not eat at work. Like with the muffins the other day. I had eaten those muffins and now I need to eat some food, but I couldn't. It's hard to stop with a little bit.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it really is. I know it sounds like really nebulous to stop obsessing, just making rules and stop obsessing, but it can be pretty freeing for a lot of people. And like I said, you can change it around. So, you can try and come up with like one plan you want to follow and then try it and then don't think about it, and just do the plan. And then, if it doesn't work, come up with a new plan.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, exactly. Tweak it till it's easy.

Melanie Avalon: And then when you find yourself thinking about it-- because the good thing about having the rules is, if your brain’s like, “Huh, should I do something else?” No, because you already made the plan and you're seeing if it works. So, then you learn to not engage with this constant back and forth in your head of what you should or should not be doing. You just do it, evaluate if it worked or didn't work, and then keep doing it or adjust the plan.

Gin Stephens: That's how my mind works completely. I guess we're all different with that. But the month that I had completely alcohol free recently, I didn't wrestle every night with “Should I have a glass of wine with dinner or not?” I was like, “Nope, I'm not having any wine.” It was super easy. I didn't have to think about it. Whereas in all the months of 2020, every night, I was like, “Should I have wine, or should I not have wine? I don't know. I want to drink less. Oh.” And it was always a struggle. But then once I flipped that switch, I'm not having wine, I'm not having alcohol, it was like, “Bloop, okay, easy decision made.” And I didn't even have to worry about it. Or think about it or want it, I wasn't craving it.

Melanie Avalon: It's so much easier. And I think people are hesitant to do it because it sounds like, “Oh, you're being controlling or not being intuitive.” But having that approach to life, it can be really freeing. And like I said, you can always change it, to clarify about that. You're not going to change it that day, because that would be going back to questioning it. It's like so you would make the plan and you stick to it for however long the days it is and then reevaluate. Melanie, on the other hand, is back to alcohol and loving it.

Gin Stephens: I did have alcohol last night because I wanted to test it with my blood glucose meter.

Melanie Avalon: How did it affect things?

Gin Stephens: It didn't seem to affect it a lot at the time but all morning today, I had higher blood glucose than I've been having. I had really high blood glucose in the fasted state versus I don't usually. And I also slept so terribly last night. I woke up at like 2:00 AM and I was awake all night after that because I was really doing some science, so I wanted to make sure I had enough. In the middle of the night, I was like, “Yeah, this is not working for me.”

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny because we're complete opposites. I really intuitively, when I'm drinking wine, I feel my blood sugar control, my glycemic control is so much better. So interesting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it really is. And you're probably right.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. For me.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. For you. Yeah, exactly. But for me, no.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions to the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can find all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can get the show notes for today's episode. Those are at ifpodcast.com/episode181. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. I'm @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. Speaking of Gin, I just realized on Facebook, I can be like doing my Instagram from Facebook. Did you know this? And it's so much easier than on Instagram.

Gin Stephens: What?

Melanie Avalon: Because you know how Facebook changed?

Gin Stephens: Like it just recently changed?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Everything's everywhere. I don't know where anything is. I'm so confused. I feel like I'm lost. I feel like I'm like a lost child in the mall. I'm like, “Wait.”

Gin Stephens: I rarely use Facebook on the desktop, unless something's broken on the phone. I'm usually on the phone. So, the only time I do it on the computer is if something's broken on the phone.

Melanie Avalon: Well, it's really confusing. I get so lost. I think I'm in one group and then--

Gin Stephens: That's what I'm hearing from people. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think I'm in my group and then I'm not, and then I think I'm somewhere else, and then I'm not. I'm like, “How do I get back to--?” And I feel like I'm missing things. It's just very confusing.

Gin Stephens: Yes, tools are missing. I'm in a power admin group that's by invitation only. You have to have a certain amount of engagement in your groups, whatever, if you're an admin, and everybody there is talking about it.

Melanie Avalon: It's very upsetting.

Gin Stephens: Help! Apparently, comments are just going wherever. Someone will make a comment, and it won't be at the end anymore. It pops in the middle. The sequence is all wrong. Also, somebody who's in one of my groups said she posted it in the group, and it went to her personal page instead. And then, I was like, “Well, maybe you did it by accident.” And then, she had a screen recording of her doing it and it was like actually--

Melanie Avalon: Happening.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: And the other thing is, I feel before this, I was getting way more notifications about stuff and now I'm not. I know stuff is happening, but I'm clearly not hearing about it anymore.

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: Or it'll be this person commented and then I go on, I'm like, “What?” I don't know, it's very strange. But in any case, right before this, I'm also randomly finding random things because I'm ending up in random parts of it, I don't understand. But there was this one thing and it was like Instagram and it was like, you have this many notifications. I was like, “Wait, what?” So, I clicked on it and then my Instagram pulled up as a feed, but in Facebook, and it showed me all of the things I've missed in Instagram for the past three years.

Gin Stephens: Oh, wow. Like messages?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it literally went back-- and comments. I could answer though for my Instagram on Facebook and I was like, “What is happening?” So that's the one good thing they need to keep, and they need to pull it out and make it its own little button somewhere that because I have no idea I'm going to find it again. I have no idea how to get back to where.

Gin Stephens: You don't know where you were. You just stumbled across it.

Melanie Avalon: I really did.

Gin Stephens: Wandering in the wilderness. Oh, my God.

Melanie Avalon: I was in some message version of one of my things, because I think it was connected to one of my business pages. I've literally no idea where it is.

Gin Stephens:
[laughs]

Melanie Avalon: If I find it again.

Gin Stephens: I did everything the opposite of the way you're supposed to. I don't have any business pages. I had two. I had one for Gin Stephens, author, and one for Delay, Don't Deny, the page, instead of the group. I just deleted them.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't use it.

Gin Stephens: You're supposed to. You're supposed to market through them and do all this. I'm like, “No.”

Melanie Avalon: I don't use it. But I get messages to it. That's how I ended up there by accident because I don't know how to find it, like normally the messages. But then randomly I'll get notifications. It's like, "You have messages.”

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's why I stopped because I was getting some messages there. And also, that's where people would send me really mean messages.

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Gin Stephens: I know, it's really sad. In Facebook groups, people send you mean messages. But now, I don't read messages from people I don't know. You know how in the Messenger app, it has an Other box, Message Requests. I don't read those for my own sanity. So, if you've tried to connect with me people, and you're sending me to my Facebook Messenger, I don't read them. Because it's always questions, and it'll start with a simple question like, “Can I have lemon?” And I answer to it. And then, a month later, it's like, “I've only lost one pound, what do I do now?” And then, a month later, it's like, “What should I eat?” And so then, it becomes it's just too much. Yeah. And so, I apologize, everybody, if you've ever tried to reach me with Messenger, I don't even look at that, because I don't have time. I would be doing that 27 hours a day if I did, because I don't have time to personally coach everybody through Messenger. And that's what the groups are for. If you have a question, ask it in the group.

Melanie Avalon: Same. I always redirect.

Gin Stephens: Don't ask me personally, come to the group. I wish there was-- I could do an autoreply. That would be the best. If I could send-- not on Messenger though, but on the pages you can. I actually finally set that up before I deleted it completely. But I wish in Messenger, you could have an autoreply for people, and you could set it to say what you want. And mine would say, “Thank you for reaching out. Unfortunately, due to the volume of messages that I get, I'm unable to see them or reply to them. Please ask your question in the group where we will all be glad to help you,” because I really want to help people, but I just can't do a one-on-one Messenger thing. And it's hard because I would love to do it, and I used to. I used to answer, I would go to that box, I would answer everybody, and it just got to be too much.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I have a preset answer that I copy and paste that redirects them to the group.

Gin Stephens: I don't even see them because they're in that hidden box. I don't even go there. The message requests, I don't look at them.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, Facebook,

Gin Stephens: I know.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, on that note, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, I look forward to it.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 180 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of our sponsors, Prep Dish. Prep Dish is changing the way thousands of families do mealtime. Here's how it works. Prep Dish thoughtfully crafts a week's worth of gluten-free and paleo meals that feature seasonal ingredients to make the most of your budget, save you time, and surprise your taste buds. You may be thinking, but we aren't gluten-free or paleo! Well, when I have used Prep Dish, my family didn't even notice that the meals were gluten-free because they are based on real food ingredients and the meals were delicious. There's also a keto plan if that's what you're looking for.

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Melanie Avalon: And one more announcement before we jump back in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Okay, here’s the thing. You might be fasting clean, drinking water, drinking your black coffee, but did you know you might still be putting compounds directly into your body, which are messing with your hormones and making you less likely to burn fat? The average man uses around six skincare products per day. The average female uses around 12. And conventional skincare makeup in the US is full of things called endocrine disruptors. These are compounds which mess with our hormones, and these include obesogens, which can actually make our bodies store fat. It's honestly shocking.

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If you'd like to learn more about Beautycounter and get free discounts and special thanks from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. And lastly, if you'd like to take a quiz to find your perfect products, I created those at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz.

All right, now enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 180 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am so excited.

Melanie Avalon: Why? I actually don't know why. Wait, why? Normally, I feel like I know.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's going to be old news by the time this podcast episode comes out, but as of the date that we're recording it, tomorrow on supermarket checkout shelves everywhere, Woman's World magazine is hitting the stands and I've got my first glimpse at the finished article. Yesterday, they sent me a PDF of it and also the cover. Now, of course, you know one caveat they have to throw their crazy claims on there, which you know, I didn't say it, claims on the cover. Lose 19 pounds in 14 days. Now, would I ever say that in a million years?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: And I did not say that. I told no one that nor would I ever but I guess make people pick up the magazine, but the article doesn't. I do not say that in the article, but the article is actually very well written, and I'm proud of it. It features Fast. Feast. Repeat. The cover photo is of one of my moderators, Paige Davidson, who lost 108 pounds at the age of 57. It's fabulous. It opens with a quote from Krista Varady and her latest research on time-restricted eating. It talks about Fast. Feast. Repeat. right after that. There's a great quote where they talk about me saying that a pound a week is a good goal. Not to expect a lot of quick weight loss. So, at least they have that in there. I'm really happy to see. They have a section from Jason Fung. They have a section from Dr. Mark Mattson from Johns Hopkins, he's the one who wrote the New England Journal of Medicine article that came out in December of 2019. And he actually says, time-restricted eating, quote from him, is one of the best things you can do for yourself, which is huge. And so, it ends with picture of the cover of Fast. Feast. Repeat., which is thrilling.

Melanie Avalon: That is really exciting.

Gin Stephens: It's really exciting.

Melanie Avalon: What's it called, again, the actual magazine?

Gin Stephens: Woman’s World. You see it at every supermarket checkout, it's right there. Always got some kind of crazy weight loss claim on the cover.

Melanie Avalon: And what was the claim, 19 pounds and how long?

Gin Stephens: 19 pounds in 14 days. I wish I could have convinced them to say you're going to lose weight really slowly, but it's okay. That's how I would have written it, but I don't know, maybe people would have been so shocked, by lose weight slowly and keep it off, they would have picked it up.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just curious because that's such a specific number. Where did they come up with that?

Gin Stephens: Well, Paige talked about how she lost a lot of weight right at first. And so, I think they got that from her story.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, did she lose 19 pounds in 14 days?

Gin Stephens: Well, she said they got that part actually a little wrong. It was something close to that, but not exactly. I'm looking over that part. I wish that they had said, “You're going to lose about a pound a week after the adjustment phase, and that's great: But that doesn't sound as exciting, I guess. But it's what I would have written.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, right, because in your book, the weight loss is after the 30 days, but they took out that context in the article.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I mean, that's not in there at all the 28-Day FAST Start, they say several things from me. And the quotes are pretty solid. There's not one thing that I said that I read and go, “Ooh, that's not really what--” No, there's nothing like that. So, that's good. And the article, like I said, is very solid and the writer did an excellent job. Other than the spin on the cover, which was going to make people have unrealistic expectations, like all of those covers always do. I would like to have it not say that, but I'm focusing on the positives which is, I am quoted in an article with Varady, Fung, and Mattson, and Gin Stephens. Anyway, it is really exciting, and it features Fast. Feast. Repeat.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to pick up a copy tomorrow.

Gin Stephens: Well, do. It's going to be on the stands September 3rd through 9th. September 14th is that's the date it says on the cover, but they come out before the date. By the time September 14th rolls around, it shouldn't be available anymore new, and it'll be out. But, anyway, hopefully, everyone got a chance to see it. I hope everyone knows, if you know me, anyone that knows me would know I would never say that you will lose 14 pounds in 19 days-- No, 19 pounds in 14 days. I definitely wouldn't say that. I wouldn't even say expect to lose 19 pounds in 19 weeks. You might not. If you have a ton of water weight, you’ve got some kind of issue with a massive amount of water retention. That's the only way. I mean no one on earth is losing 19 pounds of fat in 14 days. You're just not. I think it's probably impossible physically to do that.

Melanie Avalon: Now, I'm wanting to like run numbers in my head. But, yeah.

Gin Stephens: You would have to weigh a whole lot. But for it to be fat, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because just a pound of fat is how many calories?

Gin Stephens: 3500 is the standard number, although I've read an analysis that no one can justify where that number came from.

Melanie Avalon: Story of life.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's just common knowledge. But Zoe Harcombe, I think is the name of the person that wrote the analysis that I read years ago. Have you heard of her?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: She's in the low carb community, I believe. It was years ago, I read her analysis. She's from the UK and she's maybe a dietitian, I can't remember, that's what I think. And it was an analysis of why do we think that it's 3500 calories per pound and she said she went everywhere trying to find the origin of that and couldn't figure out where that came from.

Melanie Avalon: That's really funny.

Gin Stephens: Maybe, there is a fabulous origin, but she just wasn't able to find it. That's possible. Anyway, no, do not expect to lose that much weight, but it's just very exciting to see intermittent fasting presented in such a great way. Other than that one little claim, the rest of the article is very solid.

Melanie Avalon: That is so exciting. I'm excited to go pick it up tomorrow.

Gin Stephens: Me too. I'm going to definitely be at the grocery store.

Melanie Avalon: Please sign a copy. I was going to say it for me. Are you going to go sign copies at the grocery store?

Gin Stephens: No. I am not going to do that.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if they would like kick you out.

Gin Stephens: I think if someone buying Fast. Feast. Repeat. is my target audience, but at the grocery store, someone buying Woman's World, no. But hopefully it'll bring people to Fast. Feast. Repeat. and then when they read it, they will say, “Okay, I'm not expected to lose weight the first 28 days.” I think being realistic is important. Next step, solve the way they promote these things at the checkout counter. I was unable to solve that problem, but maybe we can get them to portray things differently, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I doubt it.

Gin Stephens: That'd be a great goal.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's like a goal for life.

Gin Stephens: I know. I was excited. What's up with you, anything new?

Melanie Avalon: I mentioned this. I've started to do dry needling, which you have not done, correct?

Gin Stephens: Never.

Melanie Avalon: Listeners, I would love to hear people's experiences. It's to target muscle tension and pain and things like that. So, I've been doing it in my jaw.

Gin Stephens: Are you doing it yourself, or someone doing it?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no! Gosh.

Gin Stephens: I didn't think so. But when you said that, I got suddenly, maybe Melanie-- I mean, I can just imagine you lying in your freezer of water, sticking needles in--

Melanie Avalon: To that point, so I've had some intramuscular glutathione sitting in my fridge for like a month but I've been too scared to do it because I'm too scared to stick something into my muscle, but I got the dry needling done, I was like, “I can do this now.”

Gin Stephens: I actually can do that. I can, I had to do allergy shots. I gave myself allergy shots years ago.

Melanie Avalon: Was it subcutaneous though, or muscle?

Gin Stephens: I can do either.

Melanie Avalon: Subcutaneous is totally fine.

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah, and that's super easy.

Melanie Avalon: But muscle. I'm like, “Hmm.”

Gin Stephens: I had to do that with the HCG diet.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I did it with that back in the day, but glutathione, nobody tells you it burns. So that was an epic fail. When I was getting the dry needling though-- Okay, are you ready for my Monday? This is my Monday. Getting dry needling, getting it in your jaws is one of the most painful things I think I've ever experienced. Yes, it is. Two, he started doing my neck, and right before he did it, I was like, “What if he like pierces a vein?” And then, he did. I literally thought I was going to faint. And then, I got out of it. And I realized my Apple ID was compromised from the Philippines, and everything just crashed and burned. That's my life.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's always awful when something like that happens. Like if you go to Twitter, there's a Gin Stephens. Someone stole my Twitter account, Gin Stephens, years ago when I wasn't really using it when I was just a schoolteacher, someone stole--

Melanie Avalon: Your actual account?

Gin Stephens: Gin Stephens, yeah. Someone stole it. And so, now I have to be Gin underscore Stephens because I no longer have the email address that was associated with the one I set it up back in 2012. And like I promise, this is me. It's not even a picture of me. If you go to the old Gin Stephens, there's like a picture of me and then someone else. That's not me, and they stole it.

Melanie Avalon: This was people, I guess, got my Apple ID, and so they were like buying all this stuff. And they said all of my devices were infected with like trojans, and I was like, “What?” But they fixed it. They were on top of it.

Gin Stephens: Apple did?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. It's really impressive. Like you call and they fix it like while you're on the phone. It was so fast. I was like, “Wow,” I did have to pay for security now going forward.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's really exciting because Twitter could not help me, but it was because I didn't have that email address anymore. And that's frustrating since they don't go with you when you change providers from one internet provider to the other. Others can, but that one did not because I changed internet providers.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, modern world. So, that's that. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off, this is from a Melanie, I didn't realize that. The subject is "Body Needing IF?!" And Melanie says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. I am a 32-year-old twin mama, who has been doing IF for the past 20 months. I started very gradually after having heard of your podcast by complete coincidence on another show."

Gin Stephens: I wonder what other show?

Melanie Avalon: Melanie, can you let us know? Please email us. I'm really curious. Okay. She said, “I never thought I would be able in a million years to fast as I have been a serial snacker all my life. I've been successfully able to get to a 20:4 and also regular 24-hour fasting. I usually stick to this fasting schedule during the week and stick to a very healthy diet with a 12:12 hour window on weekends. My two-year-old toddlers refuse to eat if I'm not eating with them on the weekend. I do not have this issue during the week as they go to daycare very early and eat breakfast with their educator.

I have not been losing weight with IF since I began, but I was a little underweight to begin with. My goal was mostly to gain energy, hello two-year-old twins here! And also manage my Crohn's symptoms, both of which have greatly improved with IF. With all this being said, my question is, can the body get to the point of needing IF to feel good? As time passes, I realized I always feel so sluggish and bloated on weekends even though I eat healthy. Is it possible that eventually the body gets so used to the fasting state that it needs it to be feel good and function well?

The only thing I find positive during weekends is having the fuel for very long and intensive workouts and I would love to know if there's any research on how the body adapts long term to daily fasting. Any thoughts on needing fasting to feel well? Thank you so much for all you do. You make my daily commute so much more fun."

Gin Stephens: Awesome. Yeah, I don't think there's any research on really-- I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, Melanie. Have you ever done or read any research on fasting that focuses on the way people feel as a primary thing? I've seen studies where they talked about that people were able to stick to it or if they were hungry, but never focusing all the energy that we feel and how great we feel. I've never seen an actual research study that even talked about that. Have you?

Melanie Avalon: I've seen a lot on mood, if you would qualify that as mood. I don't know if there's one on vitality, though.

Gin Stephens: Right. That's what I mean. That's what I'm talking about. I have seen what you're talking about with mood, not specifically of what she's saying. But really, I think, Melanie, it's just you realize, “Hey, this pattern feels really good to my body.” And then, you notice when you're not doing it. It's like if you don't get a good night's sleep, and then you feel sluggish the next day, you then realize, “Gosh, I feel better when I sleep well” if this is the same kind of a thing. Or if there's foods that don't work well for you, and you eat them, and then you feel worse. You're like, “Hey, that food doesn't work well, for me.” Basically, you're realizing that a 12-hour eating window is not how your body feels its best. You're spinning it to say that your body needs fasting to feel good, but really, you feel good when you're fasting, not that you need fasting to feel good. It's just that this is the state where you do feel good. I don't know. Am I explaining that all crazy?

Melanie Avalon: My main primary thought was that just what Gin said, that you feel so good with fasting that it's a mirror for how you feel when you're not in that state. So, eating. It is always an inflammatory process to some extent, it just is. For some people, it's way more inflammatory. For others, it's barely at all. Some people feel fine after eating or great after eating and they don't feel much different after eating compared to fasting even because they just aren't reacting to foods, everything just works well. But a lot of people, if they do have an inflammatory response to food-- and it could be a lot of things, it could be digestion issues. She says that she feels sluggish and bloated, it could be food reactions, it could be how your microbiome reacts. Basically, when you eat it can be very telling as to how the food is actually affecting your body. So, fasting is not making your body unhealthy or making your body require fasting to be more healthy or be more effective. But it by itself, it might help support your digestion and help you solve health issues. I'm not saying it's necessarily a health issue, but fasting by itself is not going to change necessarily the response you have to a meal based on your current, like, what the meal is, how you eat it, what your microbiome is, because then you're in the eating state. So, it's kind of like the fasting criteria goes out the window. Does that make sense?

I relate though. I do in a way feel I need to do fasting to feel good, but it's mostly because I feel like the way Melanie feels. I'll get sluggish and bloated after eating meals now. I think an exception would be if I ate just fruit or something, like something that was really easily digested, really quick fuel and in a way-- and this is going to confuse people, so I almost don't want to say it, but in a way almost mimicking the fasted state and that is just pure energy. My body is definitely used to functioning in the fasted state now.

Gin Stephens: If I overeat, and my window is too long, I feel sluggish and bloated. On a normal day, when I open my window and I eat, I don't feel bloated. It's evening, so I feel that's a normal time to feel tired, the evening. But I don't really know that I would say I feel sluggish. If I go on vacation and open my window really, really early, yeah, sluggish. And after several days of it, yes, bloated. It's just that overly full feeling that I don't like to feel.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And actually, to that point, just because you're talking about feeling. She doesn't say she has IBS or anything like that, so I don't want to prescribe that onto her.

Gin Stephens: Well, she said she has Crohn’s.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait. Oh, she does. Oh, yeah, my bad. Now, I feel like I should have been more strong what I was saying before because actually, everything I said really applies. Yes, if the foods you're eating are exacerbating your GI symptoms for whatever reason, 100% it's normal that you're feeling sluggish or bloated after them and it totally makes sense why you feel great fasting. No, you don't need the fasting to feel great. But if your GI state and tract and everything is in a state where it is reacting intensely to food, it's just natural that you probably won't feel so well after it. So, that would be really mitigated by really, really looking at your food choices.

Gin Stephens: I have something else I'd like to throw in there as a teacher and as a mother. Melanie says that her two-year-old toddlers refuse to eat if she's not eating with them. I think it's time to teach them that mama doesn't have to eat for you to eat. You can sit with them and not eat. And they'll eat. I wonder if their teacher eats with them. She might just be there with them because teachers don't always eat with the kids either. So, there's two of them. If they're both eating and you're sitting there with your clean fast beverage, they're probably not going to notice that you're not eating. They probably want you with them. It's not so much the act of you putting food into your mouth. They're two, they're going to be getting older. If you don't want to eat with them for 12 hours, say, “Mama is not going to eat right now. Mama will sit here with you. I'm going to have this coffee.” Just tell them.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really glad you brought that up.

Gin Stephens: They’ll eat. I promise you, a toddler will eat when they're hungry. And they're not going to refuse to eat if they're hungry.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really glad you brought that up.

Gin Stephens: I read a book, French Kids Eat Anything or Eat Everything or something. I didn’t read the whole book. So that was a lie, sorry. I didn’t read the book. I read the summary of the book or I read the free-- You know how Amazon will send you the free--

Melanie Avalon: The first, yeah-- such a tease that kills me.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I didn’t buy the whole book but I read the free sample, that’s the word I am looking for. I read the reviews about it. Basically, the premise of that book is that kids all around the world do not play games with food the way American children do. They just eat their food. Whether they're in Asia eating scorpions, whatever. They eat whatever there is. They're not picky eaters but then we're raising all these picky eaters who are like telling us-- I remember when Cal was a baby, I was like, "He only eats things that are beige." And I let him do that. I let Cal only eat foods that were beige. And so, I catered to that. I would like to go back in time and not cater to that. But I was panicked. I was like, “Well, he only wants to eat these chicken nuggets and vanilla pudding and French fries.” Okay, look, that sounds terrible. Crackers, he ate those things if I gave them. Carrots, he spit them out. I should have just kept presenting the carrots.

Melanie Avalon: You know what is actually really interesting to that point? I just finished reading Cate Shanahan's Fatburn Fix. And she has a section on teaching herself to like certain foods that you don't like. And they've done studies on kids and taste buds, I guess it takes 10 exposures of our taste buds to something new before there's a definitive answer as to whether our taste buds like it or not.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Melanie Avalon: The way you do it is you have like a really small amount of the food you're trying to get to like at a time when you're a little bit hungry and you do it 10 times over a few weeks. And then, if by 10 times you don't like it, then you can just give up. I like most foods so I was thinking about this like-- I think it's so interesting when you eat mostly real foods and stop eating processed foods and especially with fasting--

Gin Stephens: The hyper-palatable foods. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, most “food” I like. The only ones I don't like are things that I think actually have allergies to like olives or--

Gin Stephens: Yum, I love olives. But like me and fish. I don't like fish.

Melanie Avalon: I can't understand this.

Gin Stephens: I wish I did. But the thing is, is that like I said, would like to go back in time and be a different mom and not cater to that. Because now it sounds just so silly, when I think back, I'm like, “My child will only eat chicken nuggets.” Well, okay, he'll eat something else if I give him something else and he's hungry. He will eat it. They will eat it. Anyway, do what I say, not what I did, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yep, what you learned.

Gin Stephens: It's true.

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Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Megan. And the subject is "Smoking and Intermittent Fasting." Megan says, “Hey, girls. Super fan here. Love your show. You opened a whole new world for me when I found your podcast. My question has to do with smoking cigarettes and intermittent fasting. I recently quit smoking. Yay!” And that was Megan saying, Yay, but I think Melanie and I would also say, yay!

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yay!

Gin Stephens: And she says, “And wonder what information you can provide to me about whether or not intermittent fasting may help prevent weight gain after quitting smoking. I am beyond thrilled about finally taking my health more seriously and quitting, but am worried about the potential weight gain. Thanks so much. You guys are the best.”

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Megan, for your question. And again, applause for you for quitting smoking. So, I did a lot of searching. Unsurprisingly, there are not any studies specifically on intermittent fasting and mitigating weight gain after smoking. However, there are a lot of studies on weight gain after smoking. So, yes, many people do gain weight after smoking. There's a lot of potential reasons for that.

One is the change in your metabolism. Nicotine can actually boost your metabolism or cause you to burn more. There's actually a lot of really fascinating studies on nicotine and why it makes us not hungry and things that does. One thing is they think it maybe activates like beige fat, which is brown fat, which is a type of body fat that is more metabolically active. Another study found that it stimulates compounds similar to-- I'm trying to remember exactly what it said. I think it was basically the sympathetic nervous system. So, adrenaline and things like that. It taps into similar pathways and encourages the body to burn fat. Nicotine itself actually supports weight loss. When you cut that out, you're making hormonal changes in your body, you're making chemical changes. So, that's not something that's super easy to mitigate with the exception of if you were using a nicotine patch, or something like that.

Also, with smoking, it can alter your food preferences. They find people who quit smoking often start craving more sweet foods, especially if you're eating that in processed forms, that makes a lot of sense. And then, a lot of people turn to food as a substitute for the psychological effects of tobacco. So, instead of smoking that's like a habit, they turned to eating.

Gin Stephens: It's like that oral fixation. You've been filling that need with the cigarette going into your mouth, and now you're putting something else into your mouth.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, the oral fixation and then also, a lot of people obviously are turning to smoking for anxiety relief, and so they might switch that out for food instead, which has a tendency that in the moment, it can make people feel better, regardless of the long-term implications. So, they've actually done a lot of studies to see how putting people who stopped smoking on diets that are intended to either make them lose weight or not gain weight and see how they respond. What they found is that in the quitting process, because normally it's like lining up with while you're quitting, if the diets are too restrictive, it usually backfires because quitting smoking by itself is very taxing on willpower. So, when you couple that with a restrictive diet, it doesn't usually go so well.

That said, when people are trying to quit smoking, and they're put on personalized dietary protocols that are not too restrictive and are meant to help them lose weight, and then especially if it's coupled with addressing their fear of gaining weight, that psychological aspect seems to be huge. Basically, the key, it seems, to not gaining weight after smoking, is to not have a fear that you're going to gain weight and to be following a dietary protocol that would encourage weight loss. So, basically, that says to me that intermittent fasting is perfect for this situation because we know all the benefits of intermittent fasting, we know how it supports the body, how it does support naturally a fat-burning state. We know that it's not based on this over-restriction, it's not a chronic crash diet. It's something that is very sustainable and supportive of the body.

So, I think, hands down, intermittent fasting could be one of the best ways to potentially mitigate fat gain after quitting smoking. And if you haven't been doing intermittent fasting before and you start doing it while quitting smoking, you could completely reframe instead of having fear of gaining weight, there's the potential of trying this new dietary lifestyle which could completely revolutionize your fat-burning potential. So, yeah, you could reframe into possibly losing weight even though you're quitting smoking.

Gin Stephens: Well, I have very short thoughts and they're a little smart-alecky. The question was, whether or not intermittent fasting may help prevent weight gain after quitting smoking. The answer is yes. May help, it may help. Sorry, is that too short?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: I think what she said is great. And yeah, I think that it's probably-- just like you said, Melanie, at the end there, it's probably one of your best bets to help prevent the weight gain after quitting smoking. I've never smoked, so I don't know how hard it is to quit. But I've watched people quit smoking, so I do know it's hard.

Melanie Avalon: She just said, she quit. I wonder how she quit. I see no problem with using nicotine patches or something like that, too.

Gin Stephens: I agree.

Melanie Avalon: To quit, especially since low-dose nicotine potentially even has health benefits. Not to be controversial.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I know, I've seen that too.

Melanie Avalon: Not that I haven't experimented with nicotine patches.

Gin Stephens: Have you?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: I think the most fascinating research on them is their potential therapeutic use for people with Parkinson's, because of how it regulates the dopamine system. It's very interesting, but I don't chew nicotine gum because that would break the fast.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Yeah, we get that question a lot though, about nicotine gum and nicotine lozenges. We recommend the patch definitely for people who are not wanting to break the fast. But yay, Megan, I'm so glad. Don't worry about the-- even if you do gain a little weight after quitting smoking, know that you're really helping your body. And so, it'll work itself out after that transition.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I love it. All right, so the next question comes from Kate. The subject is "Increased Energy After Eating." This is kind of like the flip side of--

Gin Stephens: I know. I love this one. When I read it, I was like, “I could answer that one.”

Melanie Avalon: Kate says, “Hi ladies. I just found your podcast in the last week and I've been doing IF for three months. I started at the beginning of your podcast episodes, so I have many left to listen to and I apologize if you've already answered this. But I've heard you answer listener questions about feeling sluggish after eating.” Like we just did. She said, “I am the exact opposite. I feel super energized after eating and sometimes have trouble sleeping after dinner. Just to let you know where I am, I was doing a six-hour eating window for the first two months and lost 10 pounds in that time, but wasn't fasting clean using Nutpods creamer in my coffee. I learned from you ladies to cut that out. Thank you.

The third month I saw no further progress on the scale despite a clean fast and shifted to fasted workouts and one meal a day, but I'm still in a weight loss plateau. I do have more weight to lose, but I plan to stick with it. Does it mean I'm not in ketosis if I feel energetic after eating? Am I doing something wrong? I've ordered both Gin's books and can't wait to read them. Thank you so much. Kate.”

Gin Stephens: This is a great question. I would actually say, Kate, if you have extra energy that you feel after eating, I think that means you actually are in ketosis because sometimes ketosis keeps me from being able to sleep well. If I don't eat enough, I'm too energetic to relax. Just like I've talked about how sugar gives me restless legs, not eating enough in my eating window makes me toss and turn and feel restless when I'm trying to sleep and it gives me the energy of the ketosis. Yeah, that's what I think.

My prediction would be, especially if you're doing fasted workouts and one meal a day-- and I'm also curious, if you're defining one meal a day as a very short eating window, it's very likely that you're deeply in ketosis, and that's the energy that you're feeling. So, not doing something wrong. You are probably really doing some right things if ketosis is what you want. But you may want to see if you need your eating window to be a little longer. Noticed that you're doing fasted workout. So, I would focus on how your body composition might be changing. Take some photos wearing tight clothes, like your goal clothes and see if the fit of your clothes is changing over time, even if the scale is not changing. You may be at a weight loss plateau, but not at a fat loss plateau. Those are two different things. You could be losing fat, building muscle. It looks like a plateau on the scale, but it's not a plateau in your body. So, that's what I would suspect is happening. I would suspect lots of fat burning, it sounds like ketosis, the extra energy, and body composition.

Melanie Avalon: I love what you said. I was wondering when she says like, “Does it mean I'm not in ketosis if I feel energetic after eating?”, do you think she's asking about like she's not in ketosis, specifically after eating or she's not in ketosis?”

Gin Stephens: I think she's asking since she feels good after eating, does that mean she's never getting into ketosis? I would say no. I actually have great energy, and really, I often don't have a real sluggish feeling. I like to go to bed bit early. Have you ever done that chronotype quiz? I can't remember the sleep doctor that has that.

Melanie Avalon: Is it where you're an owl or a wolf?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think I'm a wolf, or there's a bear and a wolf.

Gin Stephens: I'm the lion. The lion is the one who wakes up really early and then goes to bed early. I just did it yesterday because one of the moderators was talking about it, and I had done it before, but I was like, “Let me do it again.” I'm a lion. It's basically your whole--

Melanie Avalon: Circadian rhythm?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, your personal circadian rhythm of when you feel most energetic. For me, I like to go to bed early. But I look back my whole life to college and I was always the friend who would sneak away and go to bed early. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: People say everybody's that type, and I'm just like, “I don't think so.” Because I have never like that ever, and you have.

Gin Stephens: You're not. The people who say everyone is like that are the people who are like that and think everyone should be like them. I really believe that a lot of people do that. They say, “This is how I am. This is how everyone really is.” But you're just lying to yourself. No, that's not true.

Melanie Avalon: I think the fact that even on days I was severely sleep deprived and was like, “Tonight is the night I am going to bed at 6:00 PM--”

Gin Stephens: You just physically can't.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I would be tired during the day, but then come evening, be like, “Hey! It's time to party.”

Gin Stephens: Well, it's just like me trying to sleep in. I cannot sleep in.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I went to the beach with friends. We were up really, really late and I'm going to sleep in the next day. No, I wake up 6:00 AM, my eyes pop open whether I went to bed at 3:00 AM or 9:00 PM. I wake up first thing in the morning. So, that's just the way it is. The whole point of that was that eating doesn't necessarily make me sluggish. Now, if I ate too much, I feel sluggish, that's the difference. If I eat so much, if I eat too much, it makes me feel sluggish. But if I don't, I continue to feel super energetic, in fact, too energetic because of the ketosis.

Melanie Avalon: I find it interesting that there's this idea or she had this idea, and I'm sure others do as well, that with intermittent fasting, that it's a sign of success if you are feeling sluggish after eating. So, that's not the message that we want to put out there.

Gin Stephens: It's not unusual to feel sluggish after eating, but it's not wrong to either feel sluggish or not feel sluggish.

Melanie Avalon: On the flip side, it's okay to feel tired after eating. It's what you just said. A lot of people think that you either need to feel really energetic after eating and that's correct, or, well, I guess, the opposite.

Gin Stephens: I've learned this with these large Facebook groups more than anything else. People will look to what happens to one person and then if that doesn't happen for them, they immediately think something's wrong. Like, “Well, I don't get the metallic taste in my mouth. I must be broken.” Well, no, not everyone gets that. Even in ketosis, not everyone gets that. So, there's not any one right way it has to be and then if you don't have that, then you're wrong. Some people lose pounds, but not inches. Some people lose inches, but not pounds, and neither is wrong. It's just what your body's doing.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. Did you know that there is one phase of sleep that almost everyone fails to get enough of? It's this one phase of sleep that is responsible for most of your body's daily rejuvenation, repair, controlling hunger and weight loss hormones, boosting energy, and so much more. I'm talking about deep sleep. And if you don't get enough, you'll probably always struggle with cravings, slow metabolism, premature aging, or even worse conditions. And why don't most people get enough of this number one most important phase of sleep? A huge reason is magnesium deficiency. Over 80% of the population is actually deficient in magnesium.

So, magnesium actually increases GABA, and that encourages relaxation on a cellular level, which is critical for sleep. Magnesium also plays a key role in regulating your body's stress response system. So, those with magnesium deficiency usually have higher anxiety and stress levels, which all negatively impact sleep as well.

Now, before you go out and buy a magnesium supplement, it's important to understand that most magnesium products out there are either synthetic or they have only one to two forms of magnesium, when in reality your body needs all seven forms of this essential sleep mineral. That's why I adore a product that my friends at BiOptimizers created. It's called Magnesium Breakthrough. Taking Magnesium Breakthrough before bed can help you relax and wake up refreshed and energized. The deep sleep benefits are truly noticeable.

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By the way, if you'd like to learn more about sleep, I've got two awesome shows on the topic. Check out my interview with Dr. Kirk Parsley, All About the Science of Sleep. As well as my interview with Dr. Tara Youngblood also All About the Science of sleep, and specifically how sleep temperature affects sleep. And I'll put links to those in the show notes.

All right, now back to the show.

Gin Stephens: Okay, we have a question from Shae, and the subject is "Fasting Question." Shae says, “Good afternoon. I have been doing IF for about 10 months now, 100% clean fasting. I do one meal a day and average a 20- to 24-hour fast each day depending on my schedule. I like to stick to a two or three-hour eating window, but currently working from home while also homeschooling my son has led to the accidental 24-hour fasts from time to time. I used to get so cold when I first started IF, now I am noticing that I feel so hot after I've had my one meal a day and I've closed my window. My one meal has been based on whatever sounds good. Lately, that has been a homemade spinach salad mix, homemade barbecue chicken breast, and some yogurt with granola for dessert. My question is, why am I hot after eating?

I searched the Facebook group but didn't see any real answer. Thank you for taking the time to read this. Thank you for everything you do for us. I'm so grateful for your knowledge and I can't wait for the book release tomorrow. I keep waiting for it to appear in my Kindle Library.” So, I can see that Shae wrote this in June when Fast. Feast. Repeat. was about to pop into her library. So exciting.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Shae, thank you for your question. Yes. So, it is very common to feel hot after eating and that's typically due to the thermic effect of food. When we eat foods, a portion of calories burned during digesting that food generates heat. It's also the reason that certain types of protein is “more metabolic boosting” or counts as “less calories” than carbs or fat, and that's because the thermic effect of protein is around 30%, I think. So, 30% of the calories burned when you're burning protein are actually just the metabolism digesting that protein and that materializes in the form of heat. Eating is-- I mean, depending on what you're eating, but tends to be a hot process just by the metabolic process of generating energy. That's a really simple answer.

Gin Stephens: But it's true. If I eat more carbs, I'm more likely to be hotter. The more carbs, the hotter.

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you said that. Carbs in particular tend to boost the metabolic rate.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I can feel it cranking up and I have even taken my body temperature just for fun, because I love to see what's happening. I’ll feel super hot, I'll take my temperature, it'll be 99 or something like that. I can feel it. I could just feel the heat radiating off of me. It's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Especially if you eat protein and carbs, that's probably going to be the most heat-stimulating meal compared to something like a low carb, higher fat, if it's lower protein. We talked about this a lot before but, for example, they did studies where they massively, massively overfeed people, when you way overfeed them just with carbs, the body's response, yes, it turns a little bit of those carbs to fat but it actually preferentially tends to just crank up the metabolism and you just get really, really hot.

Gin Stephens: That is 100% true for me. Yeah. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: So funny because people think there's this idea with calories. “Oh, if you eat more calories than you burned--” Well, it is true for you more calories than you burned, then you would store it. But that doesn't mean that if you eat a certain amount of calories, you're only going to burn a certain amount because the body can make the choice to instead of storing it, burn them instead.

Gin Stephens: Jason Fung explained it to me in a way, the first time I ever really went, “Oh, we all hear of it as calories in, calories out.” And that's a great math formula. That is based on two assumptions. One is that all calories in are treated the same, which we know there aren't. But the other is that calories out is static, and that's not true. The whole idea of I have had my metabolism tested and my resting metabolic rate is X. We assume that that's like a static number that's never going to change but that's so not true. Our bodies can crank up calories out or crank down calories out, and you can't control that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, actually I just mentioned Cate Shanahan’s Fatburn Fix, which we'll put a link to that in the show notes by the way. But she talks about the metabolism and she says the metabolism isn't fixed, it's not a certain number. Your metabolism changes based on what energy you need. Basically, it just changes based on what your cells are getting, what you're eating.

Gin Stephens: Which is why when I see someone-- it makes me cringe now, when someone's like, my TDEE is blah, blah, blah. No, it isn't. It's not. Total daily energy expenditure, that's what TDEE. In some diet circles, people live and die by their TDEE. Your body is not working like that.

Melanie Avalon: We talked about NEAT before, which is non-exercise activity thermogenesis. That's basically a number in a way of calories that your body can just burn. It happens from fidgeting and just movement that you do throughout the day, but it can vary wildly. And the thing is some people's NEAT is really, really low. They'll overeat and NEAT doesn't really adjust and they gain weight from it. Some people, the NEAT just goes through the roof and they just naturally burn off all that extra calories without trying to.

Gin Stephens: Now, see, that's interesting. That made me think my restless legs after eating sugar, I wonder if that's related, it's like I can't be still. It's like my NEAT is gone crazy.

Melanie Avalon: I've thought about that because I used to get restless legs. Honestly, I want to have an episode just on restless legs.

Gin Stephens: Well, I know it's not magnesium. Sometimes, people say it's magnesium. I've had my magnesium levels tested and they're fine, and that's the one thing I have always been able to take in every day. It could be iron.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think there's like five things. One magnesium, not magnesium - iron. Looking back when I was really anemic and didn't know it, that's when my restless legs were through the roof.

Gin Stephens: But what's interesting is that it doesn't happen-- there's that definite correlation of too much sugar, restless legs.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, to the sugar point, I think it could be two things. It could be that, just too much energy. I keep referencing her book but Cate Shanahan, she posits that it's peripheral nerve changes from sugar consumption, which I've also read another book as well. The fifth thing, I think, likely involves dopamine. That's one of the reasons I was experimenting with nicotine patches, because of the restless legs.

Gin Stephens: Well, I feel it from too much sugar, like I said, but also how I mentioned earlier if I don't eat enough, and I have way too much ketosis energy, that also manifests itself after I've eaten, but only after I've eaten. I never have restless legs during the fast ever, but if I eat and haven't eaten enough, then I'll feel that little restless leg thing happening from-- I guess my body is trying to get rid of the ketones. I don't know. It feels like too much energy.

Melanie Avalon: This is why I don't know why this is but restless legs are the worst.

Gin Stephens: They really are. And my husband's like, “Be still.” I'm like, “I wish. Thank you.”

Melanie Avalon: For people who've never had them, they don't sound that bad, but they're just the worst. They're just so unpleasant and there's nothing you can't stop it. How do you? I don't know.

Gin Stephens: You can only stop it by really getting up and walking around. It always happens though when you're sitting in an airplane seat and when you're trying to go to bed at night or sitting on the couch or sitting in an auditorium. Those are the times that it's really, really unpleasant.

Melanie Avalon: Now, I'm wondering because you're speaking about how it happens at night, which same for me and the research I've done on it. It's typically usually at night for people. I wonder if that's because if it is something related to metabolic issues, maybe most people tend to be less insulin sensitive and have more metabolic issues at night. I'm just theorizing. I wonder if that has any connection at all.

Gin Stephens: I don't know. But ooh, ooh, did I tell you this? This is exciting. You know that PREDICT 2 study?

Melanie Avalon: You're going to be in it, right?

Gin Stephens: Yes. I got the box of stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you did?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, the box came. It's PREDICT 3 is where we are now.

Melanie Avalon: So, it's food?

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: What is it?

Gin Stephens: They're testing your response to things. I'm going to be wearing a continuous glucose monitor for seven days. And they sent me one, I have to send it back. What if I didn't send it back? What would they do?

Melanie Avalon: Hmm.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] I really want to keep it. Anyway, I'm supposed to send it back. I will send it back. I'm a rules follower. But you have to take a poop sample and send that to them. So, they're looking at your gut microbiome. They're looking at your response. They have these muffins that they send, and I'm going to have to eat muffins in the morning for a couple days. I know I'm going to have to do it.

Melanie Avalon: You're committed.

Gin Stephens: Well, this is why I said no to PREDICT 2, even though I was approved for the study about a year ago. I was like, “I don't have time to fool with all this.” But this is just all doing it here at home. I also think people had to go get blood drawn at a lab. But now it's all just self-collected, you do it all at home, and it's only seven days, I think it's easier than PREDICT 2 was, but they have an app called ZOE. The reason everyone has to eat these same exact muffins that they actually sent, you have to eat them at certain times and then wait a certain amount of time, and they're going to see what your blood glucose does. So, they're seeing what with this exact meal, what happens.

Melanie Avalon: That's exciting.

Gin Stephens: I know. So, then they'll also analyze my gut microbiome and see. Then, they make personalized suggestions based on the results. I'm so excited. I'll be talking about it more, I'm sure.

Melanie Avalon: When are you starting it?

Gin Stephens: I probably won't have started next time we record, I'm not sure, but I'm going to the beach with Chad. I want to wait till I've been home a few days. I'm also planning it around my schedule because I want to have the breakfast muffins on days when I don't have podcast episodes scheduled. I have it all kind of planned out around that. I'll be starting it in about a week from today.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I've had my CGM in the box for a month now. I was going to do it a few weeks ago because I'm bringing on a CGM company on to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, but I'm getting surgery in two days, and I was like, “I don't want to deal with monitoring all of this stuff.” I'm already stressed about surgery, so maybe we'll be doing it at a similar time. I was going to maybe start it after surgery.

Gin Stephens: Well, I want you to figure out a way that CGM company-- figure out a way for them to get one for me. I need one too. Do it.

Melanie Avalon: After they come on my show.

Gin Stephens: Get one for me because I will talk about it. I'm so interested. I want to know what my body is doing. I've been fascinated ever since I saw that Eran Segal video, “What is the best diet for humans?” It was in 2017, I've been fascinated since then. When he talked about that we all have an individual glucose response. I'm dying to know what mine is.

Melanie Avalon: I have so many questions for when I interview them because I think my biggest question is because people will say, “Oh, you should have slow-digesting carbs, and it's better to have like an extended blood sugar release rather than a spike." But then there's the idea that maybe the healthiest thing is to have a high spike but a short spike and then back to baseline.

Gin Stephens: Everything I read, and I talk about this in Fast. Feast. Repeat., that what we don't want is for our curve to look a scary roller coaster. You don't want it to look like high up, low dip, high up, low dip, like you're on the monster scary adult roller coaster. Instead, you want it to look like the little kid's roller coaster with a gentle up and a gentle down.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Say it was a roller coaster, it's like a fast roller coaster. So, it's like straight, and then the comparison between either a really high one up but then straight down, like a Tower of Terror type thing, compared to up, really high, and then slowly going down.

Gin Stephens: I think the goal is to never have it go up really high.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I actually think there might be a nuance there because I'm not sure that an acute high spike if it goes down quickly is a problem.

Gin Stephens: I feel like that would make me feel bad. I would feel that crash.

Melanie Avalon: I guess it would depend.

Gin Stephens: I don't know, I haven't tested my blood, so I don't really know. But what was interesting is I had a friend-- I haven't heard from him in a while actually. He was in my Facebook group, and he's a doctor in Canada, and every now and then he would send me like-- he was using a CGM. And he'd be like, “Look what happened with fasting.” And it was just interesting and I've been wanting to have one ever since.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm really, really excited. Paul Saladino, the carnivore guy?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: He is being all controversial now because he was carnivore for the longest time, now he's eating a lot of honey.

Gin Stephens: Okay. That's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because he realized that he felt like his body needed carbs. But he did an experiment with a CGM while bringing back the honey to see what happened. I did an episode on it. But it basically was high spikes right after the honey but then, pretty quick back to baseline. So, not an extended higher blood sugar. I think the main problem is the extended higher blood sugar, which is why I get nervous about a lot of people on keto diets who do experience extended higher blood sugars. I'm fascinated by that.

Gin Stephens: Because that's the whole thing with type 2 diabetes that they don't want to see, constant high blood sugar. That's where the damage occurs if your blood sugar is high.

Melanie Avalon: A lot of people on keto seem to have resting blood sugars that are high, and they call it like-- I don't remember. There's a word for it. But basically, the idea that the insulin receptors are becoming sensitive in a way, they're choosing to reject sugar to keep enough sugar around because it's low carb, but I don't know, I'm very fascinated by all of it. So, we shall see.

Gin Stephens: I think really a lot of these questions are not fully answered even.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Science is still figuring it out. Anyway, I'm really fascinated. I can't wait to see what I find out. I'm not sure I'll respond well to their muffins because they're very processed and that's the kind of thing I would not eat on its own in isolation. I never eat highly processed carbs by themselves ever. I might have tortilla chips, but I'm going to have them with hummus or with guacamole or with something that's going to slow down the absorption of just carbs. I would never open my window with a cookie or a muffin. Well, I wonder don't mind if I like slathered in peanut butter?

Melanie Avalon: Probably.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I've got to have it like they tell me to, just the muffin. So, I might be like lying on the floor. I might be sluggish that day. The things we do for science.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: I'm so excited. I've been having the fear of missing out. I've been watching my friends, the moderators that went through it that did PREDICT 2 and getting their results back. And anyway, I was like, “Why didn't I just do it?” Even though it was a bad time, I should have just done it. But anyway.

Melanie Avalon: I haven't tested my blood sugar. I used to test it religiously every single night. The best blood sugars I had, hands down, was when I was doing one meal a day, tons of fruit and low fat. And my blood sugar was always so great the next day.

Gin Stephens: That's telling.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And then I feel like it got wonky. So, all right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, if you would like to submit your own question to the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode. We'll put links to everything that we talked about. What will be at ifpodcast.com/episode180. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. You can follow me, I'm @melanieavalon. You can follow Gin, she's @gin_stephens. You can also join, I made a new Facebook group recently for people who want to do breath-testing for carbs, fats, or ketones. That's called Lumen Lovers and Bioscience Biohackers. And, yeah, anything else, Gin, you'd like to throw out there?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that's it. Good luck with your surgery.

Melanie Avalon: Isn't so-- Okay, next time we talk, it'll be done.

Gin Stephens: Yay!

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. I'm so scared. I'm so scared. But I guess it's over before you even realize, right?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, exactly. You'll be under anesthesia.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Okay, well, I will talk to you next week or some time.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 179 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com.

Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour or yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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All right, now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 179 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great. It's been so long since I've talked to you.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: Listeners, don't know when these come out a week apart, but we've recorded the last one yesterday. So, it's been one day. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Little quick turnaround here. So, anything new since yesterday?

Gin Stephens: No, not a thing. Everything is the same.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. How about you anything new since yesterday?

Melanie Avalon: Not really. Except I just told you I'm slowly bringing wine back into my life, and that feels really nice. Dry Farm Wines, obviously.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I would never be able to drink any other kind. I've just-- yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I will say, listeners, I haven't had wine in probably, like a year and a half. I'd been having a sip, literally a sip of Dry Farm Wines every single night, but I hadn't really actually had wine like a year and a half.

Gin Stephens: Like a glass of wine.

Melanie Avalon: Like a glass, mm-hmmm.

Gin Stephens: That's so funny. I can't imagine having one sip of wine. What was the reason for having one sip?

Melanie Avalon: It just felt like a nice little routine, little supplement. You know how people take a shot of apple cider vinegar before eating? I don't know, I feel like it kind of had that effect. I think was more mental rather than anything else. But I will say, past few nights I've had like two glasses both nights of Dry Farm Wines and I'm fine. Dry Farm Wines for the win. Yeah, for listeners, if you haven't tried it, if you want to try hangover-free experiences with wine, definitely try it. Our link for them is dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, and that gets you a bottle for a penny.

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I'm glad you're figuring out how to work it back in and enjoying it and feeling good.

Melanie Avalon: Baby steps. Now, I’ve just got to get the fruit back.

Gin Stephens: Get that fruit back in. We're having hamburgers for dinner and I'm so excited. [unintelligible [00:06:38] anybody's interested.

Melanie Avalon: I like hamburgers without the bun.

Gin Stephens: It's going to have a bun.

Melanie Avalon: And not cooked. So, just hamburger meat.

Gin Stephens: It's a Green Chef meal. I like Green Chef.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they sponsored our podcast way back when.

Melanie Avalon: They did, back in the day.

Gin Stephens: Back in the day, but yeah, this is a Green Chef meal and so it's got zucchini, like oven fries on the side, so I'm very excited. I love a good cheeseburger with the bun and the cheese and the meat.

Melanie Avalon: I love the good raw ground beef.

Gin Stephens: No, thank you. No, no, no.

Melanie Avalon: It's so good. I will literally eat it that way.

Gin Stephens: Okay, not me. I mean I like a medium rare hamburger. So, I guess that would be for some people, but anyway, good times. What will you have for dinner tonight? Do you know?

Melanie Avalon: That's a good question. Probably shrimp or turkey or egg whites and cucumbers and maybe try to bring in some fruit. Maybe.

Gin Stephens: So, why the egg whites and not the egg yolks? I'm curious.

Melanie Avalon: Because I'm trying to do low fat, high carb.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Trying to get back to that.

Gin Stephens: All right, how are you feeling with that? Good?

Melanie Avalon: Actually, I feel demotivated because I keep trying to bring it back in and I get hypoglycemia symptoms and it's very bothersome. I get ravenously hungry basically, and that was never before a problem before. So, it's a little bit upsetting. But Glenn Livingston who has the book Never Binge Again, he came on my show and then I went on his show, which actually will probably be airing. I think he said he's going to air it probably around the time this show comes out. So, I can put a link to that in the show notes. But he's a huge fruit fan and I think he convinced me to bring back the fruit again. So, I'm going to do it.

Gin Stephens: I think you should do it. When I was experimenting with low fat just because it was right after Mastering Diabetes and I read that and I realized that was what my-- that one DNA analysis that I had suggested that exact percentage of fat they had said in Mastering Diabetes. I didn't have the hypoglycemic kind of thing. But I also eat a lot of grains, but I always have also.

Melanie Avalon: The mistake I made was I-- now that it's a mistake, but I tried a really intense ketogenic MCT oil type diet, and I think I lost my ability to-- I don't know, I think my liver is not used to running on carbs.

Gin Stephens: Very interesting. What's your Lumen telling you?

Melanie Avalon: I haven't tried it since trying to bring back the carbs. But this is something that's really interesting really quick. So, some of the symptoms I get when I try the fruit, if it's too much, it's like a heart racing. It feels like a sugar overload and the only time I felt that that I remember was before when I was eating a lot of fruit was on my birthday, one year, and they brought out a gluten-free chocolate cake. And I ate like the whole thing and my heart was racing and I was like, “I never want to feel this again.” And now, I'm getting that feeling from just eating like four kiwis, and it's really, really upsetting, but I've got to persevere. They say you've got to just stick it out. You've got to just be like 'body we're eating fruit' and I'll learn how to.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm not doing any kind of restricting at all after that experiment yesterday. In fact, how I said I was going to have broccoli with hummus? I forgot that I had bought some blackberries, and so I opened my window, blackberries with heavy cream on it. So, you see it was neither low fat nor low carb. It was absolutely perfect that blackberries with heavy cream on top.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, blueberries are the only fruit that they don't give me any heart racing. I still, in the fast, the next day feel hungry.

Gin Stephens: Do you like blackberries?

Melanie Avalon: I do. Maybe I should try some of those.

Gin Stephens: Of course, you're doing low fat but blackberries with heavy cream are just so-- I mean really, you could pour heavy cream over cat food and I would probably like it. But anyway, It's really good on blackberries, and probably blueberries and strawberries and all the berries, but you don't do dairy.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I have been eating low fat and I rinse it to try to make it-- and I might start making my own cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: I do love cottage cheese.

Melanie Avalon: I love cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: They have like cultured cottage cheese.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I have.

Gin Stephens: Now, I feel I should go get some cultured cottage cheese just to eat it, but I'm not going to rinse it and I'm not going to get low fat.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, no, no, no, no. Get Nancy's cultured. It's so good and then I rinse it.

Gin Stephens: I think I'm going to because I got to eat the rest of these blackberries because they were on sale. That's why I bought them. So yeah, okay.

Melanie Avalon: I think I'm going to start making it-- Apparently, you can make it in your Instant Pot. I am so excited.

Gin Stephens: I don't have an Instant Pot.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to make it from fat-free grass-fed milk cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: We got to stop recording the podcast. Thank you all it was great to hear you today. An eight-minute podcast is [laughs] enough.

Melanie Avalon: Got to go make my cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: I've got to go buy some. I'm not going to-- I have a book about making cheese. It's like the 30-minute cheese or something. It's some kind of a book for making quick cheese, but I never made any cheese. All these great intentions.

Melanie Avalon: So many things.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: All right.

Gin Stephens: Are we ready to get started?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. All right. So, to start things off, we have two questions and they touch on a similar topic. So, we will read both of those. The first one comes from Adele. The subject is "IF With Small Kids and Holidays."

And Adele says, “Hi, ladies, I just want to say thank you so much for the podcasts. I listen religiously and look forward to a new podcast every week. The information that you provide has really helped me on my journey, which I'm still relatively new to. My question to you is how do I deal with questions from my kids who are six and four? My six-year-old is starting to make comments about me not eating, and I don't want them to have a bad complex with food or think that I do.

I've been telling them that I'm just not hungry and I don't feel like eating until later in the day. Is this the right approach? Or do you have other advice? We are also going on holidays for 10 days next week and I worried about fasting while on holidays, as we'll be sitting down together for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and I was thinking of trying to skip breakfast only. But now, I'm worried in front of the kids to just sit with a cup of coffee only. I don't want to undo all of my hard work by going mad for 10 days. I'd like to be able to find a balance. Do you have any tips for me that can help with this? Thanks in advance.”

And then, we also have a question from Jessica. The subject is "My Kids Are Watching Me." Jessica says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, first and foremost, I want to thank you ladies for all your hard work you put into this podcast. I am new at this and I have been loving catching up and you both have helped me understand this. I love it. I have two questions I would love your input on.” So actually, I'll go ahead and read her second question. And we can come back to her first question. So, her second question, she says, “I have two kids three and five. My husband brought to my attention the other day that they are watching me. What does it look like to my kids when I'm not eating with them? They see me skipping meals, and I'm sure they might start having questions. I'm not so sure fasting is a good idea for children. So, my question is do you ladies have any kinds of suggestions or have you ever dealt with this before? If so, what did you do or what would you recommend? I certainly would never want my kids to start questioning their eating habits at their ages. They're not overweight, and they are good eaters. Thank you so much for all you do. I apologize if I'm asking something you've already touched on, and I missed it. Love your podcast.”

And we can circle back to her other question. But kids and this problem. Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Jessica is right that intermittent fasting is not recommended for kids. And by that, I mean we do not recommend that kids or even teenagers start with a prescriptive, like, “I am going to have an eating window and it's going to be from this time to this time every day and I eat in a five-hour window or an eight-hour window,” or whatever. It's not recommended until they've reached physical maturity to the level that it would be okay. So, if you have a teenager who you feel like is physically mature, talk to their pediatrician, make sure that they are developmentally ready for intermittent fasting, but obviously, the children in these two questions are way too young for that.

I was an elementary teacher for 28 years, and I find that we often overcomplicate things in our adult minds when we're thinking about how kids are going to respond. When really, kids are great with simple explanations. I look back to how I was a crazy dieter for so many years when my kids were really little, and I was like doing crazy things. They watched me have a very twisted relationship with food, with my body, with eating. But I wasn't fasting, but they were watching. I think that they were more likely to get a complex during those crazy years than now.

Now that I'm an intermittent faster, of course, my kids are grown and they are intermittent fasters too now, but if they had watched me as an intermittent faster growing up, they would see someone who does not have a crazy relationship with food. When I eat, they see me eat with gusto and enjoyment. They see that I love food, that I don't fear food, that I eat what feels good, eat what I love, stop when I'm satisfied. And I don't use dieting language like, “Oh, I shouldn't have eaten that,” or, “Oh, I'm getting fat.” Things like that. Those are the things that kids pick up on a lot.

I think you just live the lifestyle the way that you feel right living it. And if a child asks, “Hey, why aren't you eating?” Say, “I'm a grownup and grownups have different needs, grownup bodies need food differently than growing bodies. Growing bodies need to eat more frequently because you're trying to grow. And adult bodies, we're not trying to grow. So, we don't need to eat as often. And the kids go, “Oh, okay,” and then they go on. And they really don't need long, drawn-out explanations. They just really instinctually understand growing bodies have different needs. And if you have a child that's trying to copy you, like, “Oh, I'm not going to eat either. I'm going to fast too.” Say, “No, fasting is not for kids. You have a growing body, I want you to eat when you're hungry.” So, I think that they understand that.

Now that being said, if you have a kid in the morning and your child’s like, “I don't want to eat, I'm not hungry,” just naturally, I would not force the child to eat. Teach your child to be an intuitive eater, eat when they're hungry, stop when they're satisfied. Don't say, “Have one more bite. Just eat a little more.” Let them stop when they've had enough, and they'll turn into lifetime intuitive eaters who don't have all the baggage that so many of us came along with. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: That was an epic and perfect answer. I was wondering, growing up what was the messaging when you grew up for when you were eating?

Gin Stephens: I had a mother who was a hippie. She didn't really force me. I remember one time she made me sit there at the table till I was going to eat, it was like squash or something. And I was like, “I will die before I'll eat the squash.” Now, I love squash. I sit there for hours, and I never ate it. [laughter] I won that battle, I remember that. And I think she never did it again.

Melanie Avalon: I like that story.

Gin Stephens: I was like, “I'm not going to eat it.” I'll be like an old lady sitting here with this plate of squash. Anyhow, I remember that, but really, my mother wasn't that interested in why I was eating, and whether it was a TV dinner or a can of SpaghettiOs, it didn't matter to her. She was fine with-- if I wanted to eat a sandwich or, it didn't matter. There weren't a lot of rules around. Now, we're having a meal and don’t eat between meals. I started using snacking more recreationally later. But I went to college at 17, so I never really lived at home again for a long period of time after the age of 17, even in the summers. One time I worked at a camp all summer and then one time I worked on college campuses. So, yeah, I left home pretty early.

Melanie Avalon: I forgot about that, that we both did that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Then I was like, just becoming a grownup and trying to figure out my own relationship with food, but we didn't really have structured mealtimes. I think it would have been better if I had grown-- I would have liked-- who knows? It's hard to say, but if I'd grown up in a household where it was like, “Now, we're sitting down to have breakfast.” “Now, we're sitting down to lunch.” “Now, we're sitting down to dinner.” Instead, it was more like, grab something whenever you felt like it. no one ever asked me really if I was hungry.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's so interesting.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, it is interesting, but my mother struggled with her weight. She was a dance teacher. She was always complaining about her weight or complaining about her size or trying to be on a diet. And so, I think I saw a lot of that. I don't know, it's hard. No matter what, we're probably doing something wrong. You could just do the best you can.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, we can go to Jessica's other question. She said, “I love running and I've been doing it for about 15 years, anywhere between four to seven miles, four to six times a week. I've been on the 18:6 IF cycle. I tend to eat a lunch and an early dinner. However, I run in the mornings and I'm wondering if not eating after my runs is a bad idea. I feel fine not eating. I'm hard-headed though and sometimes not in tune with my body. So, I would appreciate it any thoughts you might have on this?”

Gin Stephens: I think that you're in tune with your body enough to know that that was bad for your body, you would feel that. So, if you feel fine not eating, I think you would know. You would feel possibly shaky or you would have some sort of a sign that your body was not happy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because we get a lot of questions of people who do experience that. If it's not broken, don't fix it is what I say.

Gin Stephens: Really, if it feels right, it probably is. And if it feels wrong, it probably is. Our bodies have amazing feedback mechanisms in place when we connect to them.

Melanie Avalon: It's very, very true.

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Lisa. And the subject is "Melatonin." “Hi, ladies. I love, love, love your work and have been binge listening to both this podcast and Gin's other podcasts for almost a month now. I came to IF about six weeks ago primarily as a way to prevent Alzheimer's disease which my mother has. I don't weigh myself because scales play mind games with me, but I noticed clothes are looser and I feel overall just wonderful. High energy, more stable moods, and best of all, I crave healthier foods.

My question relates to sleep aids. One important anti-Alzheimer's measure is to get regular solid sleep. Being perimenopausal, my sleep hasn't been so solid. So, I've been given the green light to take melatonin at night to help. My understanding is that the chewable varieties are most effective. You can probably guess my question. Does chewing two pills at night break my fast? I usually close my window around 8:00, but I don't want to take my melatonin until around 11:00 which is when I like to go to bed. I'm almost finished reading Fast. Feast. Repeat., so apologies if there's an answer in that book that I haven't yet read.” And then, she lists the ingredients of her melatonin, and it does have flavors and sweeteners.“ So, thanks.”

Melanie Avalon: So, thank you, Lisa, so much for your question. Melatonin in itself, the hormone, is not going to break a fast. So, if you were to be crazy like me in the past and order straight pure melatonin powder, there would not be any fast breaking, but don't do that, that can be dangerous. The supplement that you listed, it does have a lot of ingredients in it. Like Gin said, artificial sweeteners like xylitol, maltodextrin which is actually sugar, starch, natural flavors. The technical answer is yes. My little caveat to it, and I'm not saying this to encourage people to take things lightly, but I think if there's the potential for something a supplement being least problematic in the whole grand scheme of things, it's probably shortly after your eating window has closed because you're still in the fed state, that tiny little bit of whatever-- it's not like you're into the fasted state already where taking in a supplement is going to send a different signal to your body because you're in the fed state at that moment.

So, this is really just supplements specifically. That said, I really wouldn't recommend the one that you're taking, Lisa, because it's got a lot of stuff in there. You don't need all that stuff in there. There are much pure forms that you can get. And I would actually really recommend, I had on my other show, Dr. Kirk Parsley who made a sleep supplement called Sleep Remedy and it does feature melatonin in the correct ratio that your brain needs as well as other natural substrates that your brain needs to like naturally instigate the sleep state. Those aren't pharmaceutical or a drug, it's just a supplement. So, I really recommend that. I'll put link to it in the show notes and a coupon. Those are my thoughts. Basically, I would suggest a different supplement anyway, even though if you are taking one, you're taking I'm not concerned about it from a breaking the fast perspective. I'm just concerned about it in that I don't like all those ingredients that are in it. Gin?

Gin Stephens: Yep, I was going to say that exact thing about a supplement at bedtime. For someone, like me, who say, “Fast, clean, fast clean. The clean fast is so important.” I completely agree with the fact that if you just close your window at 8:00, you're only three hours away from that. And so, your body has not made the transition. If you had a whole meal, that would be a different thing.

Melanie Avalon: Right. If you had food.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, then that starts the clock over. But a tiny little supplement like that is not going to interrupt because you're still digesting your last meal, you haven't shifted over into fat burning yet.

Melanie Avalon: It's not sending a different signal, basically.

Gin Stephens: Yes, I liked the way you said that. If you were 15 hours into your fast, it's going to feel different. Plus, even if it does make you feel a little, you're going to sleep. So, yeah, I completely agree with that. I've got to try that sleep remedy, Melanie. I've never tried it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. You haven't tried it?

Gin Stephens: No, have him send me some.

Melanie Avalon: Wait. Gin, how have you not tried it?

Gin Stephens: I don't know, all the struggle I've had with my sleep.

Melanie Avalon: I have taken it consistently for the past five or six years.

Gin Stephens: I've got to get some of that. Work your magic, and then we can talk about it.

Melanie Avalon: I can work some magic.

Gin Stephens: Work some magic.

Melanie Avalon: And they have an unflavored version.

Gin Stephens: Is it something you dissolve in water?

Melanie Avalon: Well, he has the supplement pill-- the supplements, and then he has drinks versions. So, you can look it over and see what you want.

Gin Stephens: All right. Well, I'd be interested to try it.

Melanie Avalon: Just to say, I will make that happen. Listeners, so if you go to melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy and use the coupon code, MelanieAvalon, you will get 10% off. Yeah, so I take the unflavored capsules, but there is a drink packet as well. That's actually a good question. Gin, what would you think about the drink version, because that would be more like a drink but it doesn't have calories?

Gin Stephens: I'm still pretty loosey-goosey up until I go to bed just because I have the evening eating window. I would never want to do something early in the day when I've woken up that would inadvertently break my fast because I'm deep in the fasted state. Right before bed, your body is still shifting over and a small sleep aid, I don't know how much it is, how much is the drink?

Melanie Avalon: It's a packet that you mix. It's five calories.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, probably not going to make a huge difference. It's tiny and it's at bedtime. But I guarantee if I woke up in the morning and drink something like that, I would be shaking, I would have--

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad we discussed that. I hadn't really thought about that way until we talked to it right now. But the signals' framework-- because you're not changing anything that's happening signal wise, and especially this drink would have five calories.

Gin Stephens: I would take the capsule though, just because but sometimes people really overstressed about stuff that's in capsules too. And they're like, I want to take this magnesium at bedtime, and it's got whatever, whatever in the capsule. Yeah, that's probably not a problem. Not very much. So, at bedtime is the time that I worry the least about supplements.

Melanie Avalon: What I love about the capsules is they're completely unflavored. There's no problematic ingredients.

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All right, now back to the show.

Our next question comes from Phoebe. The subject is, "IF Harder at Certain Points in Menstrual Cycle." Phoebe says, “Hi, Melanie and Gin. I've been doing IF for over a month now trying to find where my body is happiest, something between 16:8 and 18:6 and taking it day by day. One thing I'm starting to notice is that the more my hormones are changing closer to my period, I have a very regular cycle and very predictable bloating and cramps, etc. So, I know it's coming. The harder fasting seems to be, I feel hungry or sooner and generally more shaky or lethargic. Things I felt in the first days of IF, but which soon vanished.

I'm wondering if hormonal processes are to blame for fasting suddenly becoming much harder the last week or so. Have you heard other people saying the same thing? And yes, I am clean fasting, not over-exercising, and sleeping enough. Thank you so much for all y'all do.”

Gin Stephens: All right. I wish I knew how much time that really was because Phoebe says over a month now. So, there's a big difference between 5 weeks or 12 weeks. If Phoebe is within the first eight weeks still, it could just be getting to the end of the adjustment period where you have a harder time. Overall, with people in the groups, we hear over and over again that all of a sudden, fasting gets really, really hard. That's when that metabolic switch is getting ready to happen. The metabolic switch we talked about last week as your body is approaching that point and making the shift to fat burning. So, it totally could be your body getting ready to make that metabolic switch depending on where you are in the process.

But, I remember when I was doing intermittent fasting in the earlier days, and I was really tracking a lot of things and paying more attention to windows, and I can remember it was always like a shock to me every month because my cycle hasn't been regular like that. But especially since I've been going through perimenopause and menopause, I was wacky for years before I even started intermittent fasting. I had trouble with fibroids, that sort of thing. But I can remember I would be hungry and I'm like, “What's wrong with me? Why am I so hungry? What's going on?” And then, bam, the next day. And then, finally I started to recognize, but every month-- or not month, it might be 40 days, then one time-- Anyway, my cycle was all over the place during that period of my life, but every time I had the same reaction.

Melanie Avalon: Like not realizing?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I was like, I am just so hungry, and I'm like going to the grocery store and buying all the ice-cream. And then the next day, there it is. It was just so very funny because it surprised me every time. Then, all of a sudden, I realized. I don't know. we've been women our whole lives, and why was it suddenly a shock, but I know I really noticed it with intermittent fasting in those earlier days, but now, almost at the end of menopause, Melanie. I looked it up last night, yesterday was day 333. I'm now on day 334. I'm a month away from being able to say that I am done.

Melanie Avalon: I know nothing about all of this.

Gin Stephens: Well, a year. You give it a year, a year with no cycle and then you can say, you're officially-- And here's what's really, really funny. I looked up one time, what was the average age for menopause, and it was 51. And here I am, 51. I'm going to be perfectly average, spot on. Yay. Hooray for that.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder you probably were more in tune to the hunger because you were so used to not being hungry with intermittent fasting, so it was like, what?

Gin Stephens: I think so. I think that intermittent fasting made me see it more than I had before. I think that's true, but I just remember that process of being surprised every time and then all of a sudden, like “Okay, now I get it. I get it. Thank you.” But I was getting more in tune with my body.

Melanie Avalon: Do you suggest for women who do experience like crazy hunger to continue with what they are?

Gin Stephens: Well, I continued fasting, but I had longer windows and ate the food my body was craving. I just said that's what this is. And I bought the ice-cream.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I definitely think for a lot of women, the carbs are pretty important and all of that.

Gin Stephens: But my body certainly craved them, and instead of having ice-cream, I probably could have filled that same hole with, say, the blackberries with heavy cream.

Melanie Avalon: That’s what I was just about to say was, I would definitely encourage if you are having the cravings, there are different ways you could fulfill that craving. And if it is at all possible to get it in more of a whole foods form, that will help everything the most in the long term. Even if you want to eat cake mixes instead.

Gin Stephens: I can't think of the last time I’ve bought ice-cream. I don't think-- We just had been in the house for a year. I don't think I've bought ice-cream, like actual ice-cream the whole time we've been living in this house, which is -- I used to eat it all the time, but then I realized that the sugar gave me restless legs. I'm okay if I had a little treat. I just have discovered-- you're familiar with KIND bars, I'm sure. They have frozen KIND bars that are almost like ice-cream, but I think they're non-dairy.

Melanie Avalon: Oh really?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they're so good. They were almost like having like a little ice cream bar, like a Snickers bar ice-cream bar something, but the ingredients are so much different than you would find. I have some of those in the freezer but I'm not really gravitating towards them every day.

Melanie Avalon: One of the things I used to really love was there was a frozen kefir at Whole Foods. I can't find it now.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I bet I would love that.

Melanie Avalon: And it was low fat too. It was perfect. It was low fat. Yeah, frozen. It was LifeWay brand. If you ever see it-- Yeah, it was really good.

Gin Stephens: If I ever see it, I'll get it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: But now I have these wonderful little truffles. I have to just share these truffles with somebody, I was on her podcast. And so, she sent me as a thank you these little tiny truffles. They're so amazing. And so first of all, I told my husband he was not to consider them as his. [laughs] And then, I hid them in the refrigerator. And then, he's like, “Where are those truffles?” Every night, I get them out, we each have one. He's allowed to have one and I'm allowed to have one because we're savoring them and making them-- I'm not allowed to have one if that makes sense. I just know that it's just the perfect amount and I won't feel bad after having one. And it's going to make it last for days and days.

Melanie Avalon: I love that.

Gin Stephens: I know. All right, everybody for the next one.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Our next question is from René. The subject is "24-Hour Fast." René says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, love the podcast. I learned so much from it. I'm wondering about your opinions on adding in two 24-hour fasts per week to my routine. I've been IFing consistently since late February 2020. My minimum fast is 16 hours but my average is 19 to 20 hours. I've seen a weight loss of three to five pounds, very disappointing.” I wonder when she sent this. She said. “Yes, I am clean fasting, black coffee and plain Lacroix or Topo Chico only during the fast and eat a pretty clean diet during my window. I would say 85% to 90% whole foods, 10% to 15% processed. I do like that my wine and I have it a few times a week.

I’ve read Fast. Feast. Repeat., and it sounds maybe it's time for me to give ADF a shot but I am hesitant to do so. I like to eat something daily. I'm wondering if I throw in two 24-hour fasts a week, as in eat Sunday night at 5:00, and then don't eat until dinner, Monday at 6:00. And then, repeat that again Wednesday to Thursday. Following those with a 16 to 18-hour fast on Thursday and Friday to refeed and maintain 20-hour fasts the other days. Do we think that that could jumpstart my weight loss? I only have 15 to 18 pounds to lose. I'm at 158. My goal is 140. I am 5’5". But it seems like they just don't want to come off. I would love to hear what you ladies think of this plan or if you have better ideas. Thanks in advance. René.”

So, René sent this mid-August. She's been IFing for, let's see, February, March, April, May June, July, about six months, and she's lost three to five pounds.

Gin Stephens: Great question, René. First of all, I'm going to say something that's probably going to make you super sad. And that is the wine. Look, I have had a struggle with wine, and I'll be talking more about that over coming months but in Delay, Don't Deny, and I think I talked about this and Fast. Feast. Repeat. as well. When I was getting to my initial goal weight back in 2015, I delayed wine for about 10 weeks. I had a goal, I wanted to get to it. It was about time to shop for spring clothes. I wanted to go ahead and get to my goal weight so I could go shopping and buy my spring wardrobe. That was what it was. So, I delayed wine and also ultra-processed foods, which you'll remember the discussion of that from Fast. Feast. Repeat.

Even though I had already lost, I had lost 55 pounds at that point of my journey. I had 20 to go to get to my goal. My initial goal was to lose 75 pounds. And even though I'd already lost 55 pounds, I started losing at the rate of 2 pounds a week, which is really crazy for somebody who's already lost 55 pounds and is approaching their goal. Usually that's when weight loss really slows down, but mine really picked up because of the food choices I was making. Not having the alcohol really turbocharged my weight loss.

I have since figured out what I think is the reason. You've heard me talk about DNA analysis. I did a different company recently, just ran it through. It's is not a very expensive one, but I ran my raw data through their company, and for the first time I got information about my rate of alcohol metabolism. I am a slow alcohol metabolizer. That blew my mind. It made me realize why alcohol affected me so much when it came to weight loss because my body has to focus on dealing with the alcohol. Your liver processes alcohol. Your liver is also going to be the place where you want to be processing your fat that you're going into ketosis. I really think that for people like me who are slow alcohol metabolizers, alcohol may really be that link that is keeping you from tapping into your fat-burning superpower.

I actually have been experimenting with the ketone breathalyzer that Melanie's talked about before, and I have one too, and noticed a giant difference in my ketone levels for days after having any alcohol at all. I know that nobody wants to hear that alcohol could be the culprit for you, but man, my body sure has told it to me.

I also see that you don't really want to do ADF, so I would pull out Fast. Feast. Repeat. and look at the Intermittent Fasting Toolbox Chapter. You do not have to do full-on ADF. You can do Toolbox Strategy 2. I called it kind of a loose version of ADF because you're having short windows a few days a week and then longer windows, so you're getting that alternate pattern without having a full down day. So, look at Toolbox Strategy 2 where you're throwing in a few. You mentioned having two 24-hour fasts per week. Yeah, I would certainly try that. That, plus the wine and I really think you would see some things change. I'm sorry to tell you that because wine is amazing.

Melanie Avalon: I will weigh in and provide a-- I guess it could equally be a Debbie Downer or it could be a not Debbie Downer if you prefer the wine.

Gin Stephens: And again, sorry if your name is Debbie.

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's what I was just thinking. So, me looking at what you're eating and drinking the 85%, 90% whole foods, 10% to 15% processed, and then wine a few times a week, everything Gin said is completely true and stands. Some people are slow metabolizers, some people--

Gin Stephens: I'm still mad about that, by the way.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Struggle with weight loss, with wine. For a silver lining, from what I've seen, the majority of the research on alcohol and wine actually tends to-- so not like the food choices with the wine, but just wine and alcohol itself tends to correlate to lower weights, particularly in women. Wine and alcohol itself can't actually become body fat. So, when you are gaining weight, if you're gaining weight from drinking, it's from two potential things. It's what you're eating with the wine and/or what Gin talked about. If it's messing with how you're metabolizing other fuels, it could be an issue.

So basically, it's possible that it's fine. It's possible that it's not fine. It's definitely something that you can play with and see. I would say if I were to focus on something, I would focus on either going all whole foods, cutting out the processed foods, because she doesn't mention macros at all or trying a macros approach. So, either low carb, high fat or high carb low fat. And with both of those, I would recommend 10% or less of the macro you're limiting. So, like 10% fat diet or 10% carbs diet. Out of all those choices, maybe try what sounds most appealing to you. I think you'll see biggest results from adjusting the food choices probably. So, that's definitely something to try.

Yeah, if you're not wanting to try ADF, I wouldn't make that the first choice, like Gin said, because there's so many other things you can try. So, why do something you don't want to try?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, exactly. I just was shocked at the difference it made in my breath ketone scores, that's the thing I wasn't expecting. I couldn't believe the difference that it made in fact. And then, that was what really sent me looking for-- I guess I've never really come across the idea that some people are slow alcohol metabolizers and all the stuff I've read about people's bodies handling things differently. Like for example, I had read about caffeine metabolism. I know I'm a fast caffeine metabolizer. The other DNA analyses I did all told me that, but I never saw anything about alcohol. So, then I was like, “I wonder if we can have different rates of alcohol metabolism,” then I looked it up and sure enough there it was. It was really using the ketone readings that let me see something was going on.

Melanie Avalon: Also, yeah, for those ketone readings, if anybody's interested in going down that route of breath analyzing, I do have a group for it. It's called Lumen Lovers and Biosense Biohackers. So, you guys can join me there. Did I talk yet on the show about that recent study that just came out with alcohol and the rodents? That blew my mind.

Gin Stephens: I can't remember.

Melanie Avalon: It's a new study and it was looking at rats where they basically only gave them alcoholic water.

Gin Stephens: For some reason, yeah, but maybe we were just talking about it. I can't remember if we talked about it on the podcast or off the air.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know if we did. So, there was a study recently-- It just sounds really funny. They took rats and they had rats on a weight-promoting diet. So, like high-fat, high-carb, made to gain weight. Then, they had rats also on that diet, but all of their water was slightly alcoholic. And then, they had rats, I don't know what the third wing was. I think--

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, we have not talked about this. I don't think we have. This does not sound familiar.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you haven't heard-- Okay. Yeah, so the study, it was released January of this year, 2020. And the title is "Long-term low-dose ethanol intake improves health span and resists high fat-diet induced obesity in mice." And the setup was that they had mice that were eating a high-fat, high-carb calorie diet to make them obese. And then, they had a group also eating that diet, but their water actually had that 3.5% V/V, I'm not sure what that means, ethanol in their drinking water. And then, they had the group on a standard diet also with the ethanol.

They did this to, in their words, “Investigate the effects of long-term low-dose ethanol intake in vivo.” And it was honestly really shocking because the group that was eating the obesogenic diet without alcohol obviously got a lot of problems, like everything just crashed and burned basically. They got metabolically unhealthy, they gained weight, their liver triglycerides got bad. They got markers of just a lot of health issues. The group that had the water supplemented with ethanol didn't experience any of those effects. It's honestly really, really shocking.

Gin Stephens: That is bizarre.

Melanie Avalon: I was shocked reading it. I didn't think it would be that intense of a response. They have lot theories in it about why that might be happening. It could be activation of AMPK, which is something we talk about a lot, or at least I talk about it a lot. I'm not sure we talk a lot about in this show, but that's a gene that's expressed in the fasted state. And its longevity-promoting gene and it makes your body basically turn to its own self for fuel sources. So, it's great, we get during fasting so that could possibly be at play. It might have to do with insulin sensitivity. And it could be a lot of other things. Their conclusion basically, they said, “Our findings show that not only could long-term low-dose ethanol intake improve the physical performance and the health span in mice, but also boost the defense mechanism against the high-fat diet. Extended evaluations are needed to assess the long-term impacts of moderate alcohol intake on organs or systems such as the brain, the muscular, and the cardiovascular system. Findings from the current study substantiate opinions on the protective effects of moderate alcohol intake.”

Gin Stephens: They weren't trying to lose weight, right? It just prevented weight gain. Is that what they're saying?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Basically, they weren't adding it to like a normal diet. They were adding it to a diet made to make the rats obese and metabolically unhealthy. And when they had alcohol, they were protected from all of that.

Gin Stephens: Okay. But they were not like overweight rats who were trying to lose weight during the rat study?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it wasn't a weight loss study. But it makes you wonder, if it is having all these effects, it's very intriguing and it speaks to the potential role of wine in a healthy diet, if it works with your body for weight loss.

Gin Stephens: That's the kind of study I would have clung to like a life raft when I was trying to-- Look, it makes it better, it makes it better. That's why I was drinking so much wine but then realizing how it was affecting me--

Melanie Avalon: And the crazy thing is, I think for me, it does make me better.

Gin Stephens: Enough people say it that I believe-- I believe it if it is, but just for me, it's just been shocking to see the difference.

Melanie Avalon: My body composition hands down throughout my life has been the best during the time-- I know it could just be correlation, but it was definitely during the time that I was drinking the most wine.

Gin Stephens: But I lost weight the fastest, that was back when I was weighing daily and calculating, and I knew what my weekly average was doing. And I'd been on that road for a while to lose the 55 pounds before, but I lost two pounds a week after eliminating the wine, and I would notice if I had it. I just really notice the correlation between my weight and wine, and any alcohol back when I was a regular weigher. So, René, experiment with it and see. You may be like me, and the wine could make a difference for you. Or you could be like the rats or Melanie, and the wine helps you. That's a variable to play around with.

Melanie Avalon: I said it at the beginning but Dry Farm Wines, the reason we love them so much is it's basically a company that goes throughout Europe and finds the wineries practicing organic practices and then they extensively test the wines to make sure they are free of alcohols, free of pesticides, free of toxins, free of mold, low sugar, and low alcohol. And they're dry farmed, which is the traditional way of winemaking. And it actually creates more of a xenohormesis potential in the grapes, which is basically just saying that's likely going to have more compounds that actually jumpstart those longevity genes in our body. The link, dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, gets you a bottle for a penny.

Hi Friends, as you all know, I've always said that when you eat is just as important as what you eat to fulfill your best wellness lifestyle. And guess what? The same thing goes for natural light. With our modern indoor lifestyles, it can be really hard to get enough natural light from the sun. But getting a good amount of light is super important for your health.

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Shall we do one more quick question?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think we have time for one more. This is from Alexis and the subject is "Morning Workout." “If I work out in the morning, then I am hungry, but I don't want to eat and break my fast. However, if I don't eat after my morning walk, then I can feel sick and queasy. Any tips to hold me over so I don't break my fast until later in the day?” And she signed it Lexi, even though her email came from Alexis, she goes by Lexi. What do you say to Lexi?

Melanie Avalon: So, I have a few different thoughts here. She says workout but she says it's a morning walk, so it's not like an intense gym session, which if that were the case it would make more sense. Do you find, Gin, that most people get hungry or sick and queasy from just a walk? I'm just curious.

Gin Stephens: I'm wondering if Lexi is just really early in the process and is not fat adapted yet, because absolutely no. Once people are fat adapted, a morning walk would not make you probably sick and queasy. If you've been fasting clean for a long time and you're pretty sure you're fat adapted, I wouldn't think a morning walk would make you sick and queasy. Because I could do anything-- I mean, okay, that's me. I'm talking about myself. But just from the hundreds of thousands of group members that say the same thing. Once you're adapted-- When people I interview for Intermittent Fasting Stories, they talk about how, once they're adapted, they just keep doing the things in the fasted state and they feel great, but it's during the adjustment process, because feeling sick and queasy is a sign of low blood sugar, which means your body has nothing to fuel you. And so, your body is not accessing a fuel source during your walk for whatever reason your blood sugar crashes, you feel sick and queasy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I was going to say it's ironic because oftentimes I feel if we get questions about how do I deal with hunger during the fast? One of my suggestions is actually do something like go on a walk because normally, it usually has the opposite effect.

Gin Stephens: Well, it pushes you to that fat burning, it gets you there if you're right on the edge. Because if I'm having a lull during the day, a momentary feeling of, “Ugh,” I just will pay attention to it for a minute and then usually right after that, bam. I hit the really good part.

Melanie Avalon: So, I actually have a suggestion that's way out there. I am really, really becoming more and more convinced of the power of things like breathwork, especially for things like nausea or feeling sick or queasy or hunger because we don't just get energy from food. We get it from food, light, oxygen, breathing. And they've done studies. It's fascinating. They've done studies on athletes, and the percent increase in energy that they can get from breathwork is very impressive.

So, for example, when you are actually doing physical activity to generate energy, the process of actually creating energy, which is called ATP molecules, that involves something called aerobic dissimilation. And aerobic dissimilation creates about 30 times more energy, ATP molecules, when there's oxygen versus when there's not oxygen. And they found in studies that they can substantially increase performance with breathwork. The reason I'm saying this is if you're struggling with-- your body doesn't seem to be fueling adequately with your activity, I would maybe suggest trying some breathwork techniques before and potentially after. I'll put a link in the show notes to Wim Hof’s new book that's coming out because he has a lot of exercises in there for this specifically.

Also, you can tie it in with like a mindset shift. So, maybe if you can see your morning walk not as something that's going to make you hungry, but it's something that is actually tapping into your fat burning. The power of the mind is very powerful. And we've seen studies on this, like when people are doing exercise, if they think they are burning more calories, they lose more weight, like they burn more calories. So, if you can see the walk as tapping into your fat-burning that might actually be effective.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I believe the power of that. I talked about some of those studies in Fast. Feast. Repeat., where people were told that this is all the exercise you need in a day, like hotel workers, just the group that was told this was great exercise, lost weight. The group that wasn't told that, didn't. I mean, your mind is amazing.

Melanie Avalon: The mindset is all covered in Wim Hof’s new book too.

Gin Stephens: I can't wait to read it.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you to read it. I think I'm really excited that you're excited to read it.

Gin Stephens: Well, I think he's cool. He's a little wacky, right?

Melanie Avalon: Have you heard him talk?

Gin Stephens: I don't think I have because you know I don’t listen to things.

Melanie Avalon: I know you don't listen to things. But the interview I did with him, maybe you’ll listen to it. He'll be talking like normal and then he'll just get so excited, passionate, and just start basically screaming and talking about changing the world. And you're just like, “Oh, my gosh, what is happening?”

Gin Stephens: I can't wait to read it. He seems like an amazing guy.

Melanie Avalon: He really, really is. I would hands down get that book. I honestly want to be everybody read this and just use it to deal with all the things that you're struggling with, because it's just a really great reframe for what we experience. That said, if it doesn't mess with your circadian rhythm, you could have some coffee. That might help suppress appetite, tea. Also, breath work side of things. I've mentioned this before, but I am loving, loving my Komuso Shift’s necklace. It's a necklace that you wear, and you breathe in through your nose and then out through it, and it forces you to extend your exhale. So, it basically forces you into breathwork technique that is calming and just really beneficial for the body. Especially if you have the urge, like munch, you want something in your mouth. It's nice because it's literally something that you can put to your mouth. But, yeah, I would encourage-- like Gin said, we don't know how long she's been doing it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that would be something I would wonder because it just sounds like she's not fat adapted.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, definitely. And also, she doesn't talk at all about what she's eating in general. So, that could also be adjusted, but we don't know. Gin, do you have other thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that was it.

Melanie Avalon: All righty. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get Gin's new book, Fast. Feast. Repeat., in stores, everywhere. You can join my Facebook groups, IF Biohackers and Lumen Lovers and Biosense Biohackers, got two of those. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. You can follow me on Twitter, I'm @melanieavalon and Gin is @ginstephens. I think that's it. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it, and I will talk to you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, I just realized what next week is. Big things are on the horizon.

Gin Stephens: Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Talk to you then.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts: Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 178 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, as you all know, I've always said that when you eat is just as important as what you eat to fulfill your best wellness lifestyle. And guess what? The same thing goes for natural light. With our modern indoor lifestyles, it can be really hard to get enough natural light from the sun but getting a good amount of light is super important for your health. That's why we use and adore Joovv Red Light Therapy products. They shine wavelengths of red and near-infrared light right in the comfort of your own home.

You guys have heard me talk about Joovv before. They're my preferred light therapy brand and their modular design allows me to treat my entire body in light. That helps support healthier cells for more energy, less inflammation, and better healing and recovery. I've personally been using my Joovv Mini at home for probably three years now literally every single day of my life. I'm not making that up. The only exception would probably be when I was traveling or moving, in which case I would use my Joovv Go to take with me. But, guys, it's part of my life. It's just part of my life.

For example, my apartment flooded recently. I took a video of torrential downpour rain coming from the ceiling, all lit up by my Joovv because Joovv is always going at night. Joovv is by far the highest quality light therapy brand. The customer service and the people there are exceptional. I find Joovv so revolutionary for my mood. I use it to regulate my circadian rhythm, waking me up in the morning, calm me down at night. I also recently had dry needling done in my jaw for a TMJ pain. And my jaw was in so much pain except for when I held my jaw up to the Joovv, in which case the pain just went away, which honestly was very shocking.

Qualifying customers can take advantage of special finance offers, including zero-percent APR for up to 12 months. To get your own Joovv devices, just go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST that'll get you a free gift from Joovv as well. And one more thing before we jump in.

Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that what you put on your skin gets direct access to your bloodstream and in your body can do a lot of detrimental things? So, while you may be fasting clean, you may at the same time be infusing your body with endocrine disrupters, which can mess with your hormones, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight and even carcinogens.

In Europe, they've banned thousands of these compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup, and the US has banned less than 10. In fact, most conventional lipstick for example is high in lead. And the half-life of lead in the body can be up to 30 years. That means every time you put on some lipstick, you might be putting some lead into your bones, which might not leave for three decades. This is a big deal. Thankfully, there's an easy, all-encompassing answer.

There's a company called Beauty Counter, and they were founded on a mission to make skincare and makeup products that are safe for your skin. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to not burden your body and support your skin health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd like to learn more about safe beauty and also get a ton of have amazing discounts and free things from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. Not sure which Beauty Counter products to try? I also just made a whole series of online quizzes to match you to your perfect product. Those are at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. So, here's to fasting clean inside and out.

All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 178 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am doing great. I got some really good news this week. You already know it, that Fast. Feast. Repeat., is coming to Targets in America, the Target stores, in November.

Melanie Avalon: That's so exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is so exciting. They're having like a specialized wellness push because I guess for the holidays. Anyway, it's really hard to get into Target, so I'm very, very excited to be able to walk into Target and see Fast. Feast. Repeat. right there. Also, yesterday, I don't know if you saw this, I posted it on Facebook and on Instagram, but I was at the mall. I was looking for some shoes. By the way, I don't understand styles. I'm 51, I just want some dark brown leather flip-flops. I had some that were great, and a dog chewed them up at my friend's house. And so, I've been trying to find another pair. Apparently, the shade of dark brown that I'm looking for is not in style. Everything is like light brown and nude and cork. I don't know. Anyway, side note. While I was at the mall, I went to the Barnes & Noble and signed all of the copies of Fast. Feast. Repeat., that they had.

Melanie Avalon: Did you do it secretly?

Gin Stephens: No, I didn't do it secretly because--

Melanie Avalon: Did you ask them if you could sign?

Gin Stephens: I did.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you did. What'd they say?

Gin Stephens: They had five on the shelf and I went and-- this girl who worked there and I'm like, “Hey, I'm the author. Can I sign these books?” She's like, “I'm not sure. Let me check.” I'm like, “Okay. Go check.” [laughs] I thought they might say no at first. I was like, “All right.”

Melanie Avalon: And what they say?

Gin Stephens: Well, the manager came over. And he was like, “Of course, and we'll put these stickers on them that say signed copy.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Gin Stephens: Which, of course, is what I wanted them to do because then people can tell it's a signed copy. But what was fun is he told me they've had to reorder several times and that it was selling really well.

Melanie Avalon: That's really exciting.

Gin Stephens: That people were coming in and asking for it, so yeah, that made me so happy. Fast. Feast. Repeat., check your Barnes & Noble, and then in November, check your Targets.

Melanie Avalon: Now, I feel like-- because when they release mine in Barnes & Noble at the beginning, they had it featured like on the centerpieces where they feature the books, they had a featured, I should have done that. I should have asked if I could sign. I just went in secretly and bought it and didn't tell anybody. And then, since then, I just walk in secretly and sign it and runaway, like I've done something wrong.

Gin Stephens: But I just felt like it would be fun and so I did it, and it was fun, and also weird. It felt weird.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's exciting.

Gin Stephens: It was. That was a lot of fun. So, what's up with you? Anything new?

Melanie Avalon: Well, you know this, but I interviewed Wim Hof.

Gin Stephens: Very cool.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my goodness. Listeners, you guys know I talk about my obsession with cold exposure. We're going to get Gin on board someday.

Gin Stephens: We're not. We're not going to get to Gin onboard.

Melanie Avalon: Wim Hof is known as The Iceman and he climbed Mount Everest in shorts. He holds 26 world records. He's insane. There's actually an episode on Netflix right now on Gwyneth Paltrow’s shows. I think it's called like Goop Lab series.

Gin Stephens: Something like that. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Did you watch the fasting mimicking diet episode she did?

Gin Stephens: I did not.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, she had Valter Longo on for one of the episodes. She had an episode with Wim, and he has the cold exposure, breathwork techniques, which I've also started doing. Oh my goodness, Gin, how long can you hold your breath?

Gin Stephens: Probably not long enough.

Melanie Avalon: If you do Wim Hof technique breathing, you magically can hold your breath eons, and it's not even a big deal. I held it two and a half minutes, like it wasn't even a big deal.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I can't do that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you can. If you do the breathwork. You think you can't, but you can. And then, it's funny because you're totally fine and then also you'll feel like you're dying. And that's when you take your breath in. For listeners, it's pretty much the most motivational conversation I think I've probably ever had, because he just wants to change the world. And he's so passionate, and he's doing all the research. That's what's really unique is, they're doing clinical studies on all of his methods and they're finding incredible things. The first time they've shown in scientific studies that you can modulate or control your autonomic response to things, like your immune system that they thought couldn't be controlled by the mind. They found that with his method, the participants can.

Gin Stephens: Wow. So, does he have like one book that you recommend?

Melanie Avalon: He doesn't have any books yet.

Gin Stephens: Oh, he has one that's in the works, doesn't he?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's what I brought him on for.

Gin Stephens: Okay, he's got the same literary agent that you and I do.

Melanie Avalon: I forgot about that. Yeah, he does.

Gin Stephens: He's represented by the same agency. Love it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I remember I tried to get connected to him through them and they were like he's really busy traveling. So then, I got connected in another way. His book, which is coming out, it's called The Wim Hof Method: Activate Your Full Human Potential. Guys, get this book.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I'm going to. That sounds like one I would love.

Melanie Avalon: It's amazing. It's short. It's great, because it's a great blend of he tells his own story, and it's like personal but then he goes all through the science of the method. There's some people that you feel who truly change the world and I feel he's doing that.

Gin Stephens: As long as I don't have to do cold exposure.

Melanie Avalon: You don't have to, but you might get convinced reading his thing. You might.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we’ll see.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and he told me how I can get a chest freezer and do ice baths in my apartment.

Gin Stephens: Oh my God, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “I want to move to Alaska.” And he's from the Netherlands, he has an accent. He's like, “You can bring Alaska to your home.” And he told me how.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that sounds dangerous. You're like trapped in an ice-cold chest freezer.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I might be thumbs down on that one. I don't know about that.

Melanie Avalon: No, you unplug it. He told me how to do it. You plug it in, you get silicone, you do something with a silicone. You put the water in, you run it for 24 hours to get it cold. And then when you want to use it, you unplug it and then you sit in it. And it's like sitting in Alaska. I am so pumped.

Gin Stephens: I don't even want the cold water that comes out of the faucet, that's too cold.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, gosh. Baby steps. Okay.

Gin Stephens: On that note, let's go to our first question.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so our first question comes from Maria. And she says-- printed it out today. “Hi, Gin and Melanie. First of all, I love listening to your podcasts during my morning walks. I've been picking random ones, but I've probably listened to about 30 in the past few months. During this quarantine time, I have been making some lifestyle changes. And after listening to many podcasts about intermittent fasting, I'm very interested in the benefits of it. I'm not looking to lose weight as I am 5’3" and 122 pounds and this is a healthy weight for me. When I listen to the podcast, I hear that most people have very short eating windows, such as 18:6 or 24. I've tried doing longer fasts but even 16 hours is sometimes hard for me. I've been fasting between 14 and 17 hours depending on how I feel each day.

I wanted to know if a fasting window of 14 to 15 hours is too short to see benefits from fasting. I'm a breakfast eater, so not eating till noon or 1:00 PM has not been working well for me and I usually get hungry around 10:00.”

All right. Thoughts, Gin?

Gin Stephens: That's a great question, Maria. And yes, you can absolutely have benefits from a fast of 14 to 15 hours. I've seen Valter Longo who came up with the fasting mimicking diet. He promotes doing just a 12-hour fast regularly for health benefits. So, 14 to 15 hours, yes, you're not going to get into deep fat-burning state, but you're not trying to. My husband does a loose 16:8-ish. But often, he'll open his window even earlier if he just feels like he needs to eat earlier that day, maybe on the weekend. So, yeah, go with how you feel. I would not hesitate to do a 14- to 15-hour fast if it feels right to you.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. 100% I'm on the same page. And I find it a little bit ironic because, and Gin mentioned this, but some big fasting proponents actually advocate, especially for women doing more consistently a shorter fast, be it 12 to 16 hours or so. My only question is, Gin, what do you think are the implications that she does find it harder? Do you think that indicates that she's not adapting to fasting? Or do you think it just means that maybe a longer fasting window isn't appropriate for her?

Gin Stephens: Yes, that went through my head. I don't think she has to force it, though. So, I didn't know that that really mattered to her. But she gets hungry around 10:00 because that's when she's used to eating and she's not getting into that deep fat-burning state. But since her goal is really just to maintain, she could push through and get there, but to what end?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my only question is, is there not some adaptation that has happened?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, if she wanted to lose weight, then I would tell her to push through that. She's probably getting hungry right at that moment where her body would be making the transition into fat burning and so she would need to push through so that that would happen, but she's not trying to do that.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. We don't often get questions where people do want to maintain-- they're not looking to lose weight, but they're also sort of wanting to fast longer.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but she doesn't want to fast longer. If you are enjoying it, you feel good doing that, do it.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, I agree.

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Adam. And the subject is, When the Liver Runs Out of Glycogen. Adam says, “I've heard different things from different sources on what happens when your liver runs out of glycogen. They are, one, if you are not fat adapted, then your metabolism slows down instead of your body accessing its fat stores. Two, if your liver runs out when you're exercising and you're not fat adapted, your body will use protein and amino acids to provide energy instead of fat stores. Three, running out of glucose in the liver when you're not exercising will not access amino acids and your body will use fat stores. Four, exercise at the end of a fast empties your liver and actually trains your body to be fat adapted. I guess my main concern is the point about your metabolism slowing down if you are not fat adapted. That source said you needed to do a low-carb diet to get fat adapted first.

Then, my secondary concern is your body using amino acids and possibly breaking down muscle during a workout, if not fat adapted. Do you guys have any insight on this? Thank you.”

Melanie Avalon: All right. This is great-- I like the different questions from Adam. We actually have a question from Beth as well, which also talks about glycogen. So, I might go ahead and read that and then maybe we can just do a breakdown of all of this, especially because I've been studying this a lot recently. So, I'm going to go and read Beth's question. Her subject is Glycogen, and she said, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. Love your podcast. I look forward to it every week. The dogs get a little longer walk when a new one loads. I've been doing IF for a little over a year. Love it, will not go back.

I do have one question. I'm also a runner and a biker. When I first started IF, my workouts struggled a bit, I'm not sure what happened, but I finally got over it. Honestly, when I started IF, I was probably lower carbs and eating cleaner. Then, I started to eat less clean in my window and had more endurance, but my weight loss stalled. I feel better when I eat cleaner which results in fewer carbs, but my running suffers. I wonder if it has something to do with my glycogen stores. I was listening to one of my favorite nutritionists, and she promotes clean eating and also likes IF but doesn't solely promote it.

Anyway, she was talking about glycogen stores and once your body uses those up, it will start to burn fat. She mentioned especially if you exercise, you may need a few more carbs for glycogen stores. I wanted your thoughts on this, any advice? I don't know if there's any way to know how many carbs to have enough glycogen to not struggle running, is this even how it works? I won't stop IF and I won't stop running. But I would like to do both, but still lose even more pounds with better eating. Thanks in advance. I'm so thankful to my friend who introduced me to this lifestyle. Beth.”

I don't know why I'm so obsessed with glycogen but I am. I literally, for fun, just read about glycogen stores and what's going on there. And I think one of the things I'm so fascinated about is there's this prevailing idea that the way things work is you deplete glycogen and then you enter ketosis. I don't know, that's the way it works. I think that goes back to a study from like 1980 was where that was first posited and that's what's mostly referenced. There's not a lot of literature looking a little bit deeper at that. And I recently found a study that literally made my life, granted it was in rodents, but I think it's still pretty fascinating, and maybe we can learn some things from it, and it might question our ideas about what might be going on with glycogen and fat burning and ketosis and all that stuff.

Because basically, in the study, they had four groups of rats. They had aged rats and young rats. Then, they had a group of aged rats on a standard diet, but doing time-restricted eating, so doing intermittent fasting. They had rats on a ketogenic diet doing intermittent fasting. And then, they also had a control group as well, which I think was just eating a normal diet throughout the day. And then, they had young rats, same thing. So, young rats doing a standard diet with carbs and intermittent fasting. Young rats following a ketogenic diet with intermittent fasting and then like control rats. They did a set of different studies, comparing all of these.

But what was fascinating was, they basically used the glucose ketone index, that's the GKI, as a marker for really entering a ketogenic state and so that's just looking at blood sugar levels compared to ketone levels. They found a lot of really fascinating things. They found that on ketogenic diets, it reduced overall glycogen storage capacity. So, the rats on ketogenic diets doing intermittent fasting, they could hold total less glycogen total.

Gin Stephens: Is that saying they didn't refill it as much?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, but the actual-- if their liver could hold X amount of glycogen, it was less than the amount of glycogen that the rats that were not doing ketogenic diets could hold. And then, what was interesting though, was it wasn't affected by fasting or not fasting. So, when they were fed and when they were fasting, they had lower total glycogen levels compared to the group that was eating the carb-inclusive diet with fasting. So, it was lower levels at the moment compared to the other group, but the capacity of the glycogen was less. Basically, they weren't holding as much glycogen-- Actually, yes, what you kind of just said, they weren't necessarily refilling it, but it was staying steady and it wasn't getting affected by going in and out of fasting. Now, I feel like I'm going all over the place, but it does speak to some of the questions we just had about-- because I read before that when people are keto adapted, they don't necessarily need glycogen as much for fueling exercise and stuff like that. The muscles become fat adapted, but then also their glycogen levels aren't really involved in their energy and output and things like that.

One of their quotes was they found that ketosis prevents fasting-induced liver glycogen depletion. So, in other words, when these rats were following ketogenic diets and doing fasting, when they went into fasting, it wasn't necessarily depleting that glycogen, they were maintaining it, which throws a paradigm shift there about how to think about things. For muscle glycogen, there was absolutely no difference between any of the groups, which was really interesting.

So, they found that the glycogen stores only hindered entering ketosis, so only made it harder to enter ketosis for the aged rats following a standard diet with intermittent fasting. The idea there might be that age rats aren't as metabolically flexible and aren't as good about switching in and out of ketosis. So, the age rats on ketogenic diets, the young rats on ketogenic diets, and the young rats on standard diets, all of them doing fasting, their glycogen stores did not really affect how soon and to what extent they entered ketosis. So, I don't know if it's that the fasting was basically making it easy for them to enter ketosis and glycogen wasn't even playing a role as long as they're metabolically flexible, which would be the young rats and then the old rats on ketogenic diets. It really speaks a lot though to metabolic flexibility and this idea that it seems people depending on you, depending on your metabolic flexibility, people can often switch in and out of ketosis, and glycogen might not be playing as big of a role as we think it might be playing. But when there is metabolic dysfunction, which would be indicated with the aged rats on standard diets, even though they were doing interment fasting, then glycogen played a whole lot bigger role.

That said, I think humans, especially when we're not humans in controlled experiments, I think the majority of us are metabolically broken. So, I feel if anything, we're probably more likely going to mirror those aged rats, we might be more dependent on glycogen, being a lever and going in and out of ketosis.

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All right, now back to the show.

Gin Stephens: Have you read Flipping the Metabolic Switch recently?

Melanie Avalon: Not recently.

Gin Stephens: I've got it right here in front of me. And this is Mark Mattson and others. Mark Mattson is the one who did the New England Journal of Medicine article that came out December of 2019 that everyone was talking about. This is a paper that was from October of 2017. This article really is what taught me about glycogen and what happens but if anybody hasn't read it, I would read it. Flipping
the
Metabolic
Switch: Understanding
and
Applying
the
Health
Benefits of Fasting. It's available for free online if you search for it. And I actually have it linked in the back of Fast. Feast. Repeat. But this guy's 100% against the-- some of the things you were just theorizing, Melanie, and it says, the metabolic switch-- This is their definition of the metabolic switch. I'm going to read verbatim.

“The point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted and fatty acids are mobilized, typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.” And then, another section under the “Results and Conclusions,” it says, “Emerging findings suggest that the metabolic switch from glucose to fatty acid-derived ketones represents an evolutionarily conserved trigger point that shifts metabolism from lipid/cholesterol synthesis and fat storage to mobilization of fat through fatty acid oxidation and fatty acid-derived ketones, which serve to preserve muscle mass and function.”

Going to Adam’s point. Adam is correct that before your fat adapted, you might have that issue. But once you're able to tap in and you're able to produce those fatty acid-derived ketones, that's when you preserve your muscle mass and function. So, then it goes on to say, I'm going to quote again, “Thus, IF regimens that induce the metabolic switch have the potential to improve body composition in overweight individuals.” They specifically say that we've got that metabolic switch from glucose to ketones, and they talk about that point being at which the liver glycogen stores are depleted.

I feel like one thing that we sometimes get confused on is whether they have to be depleted to zero. I think that's a point of misunderstanding. There's a point when the liver glycogen is low enough that we start to make the transition. And perhaps we can use the rat study. Tell me if this makes any sense, Melanie, that maybe as you become more metabolically flexible, maybe your body doesn't stash as much away as glycogen anymore in your liver. Your body's better at saying, “No, I'm not going to stash this away in my liver.” I don't know, that's just a theory based on what you said about the rats.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. A lot of things there that you just said-- I'm in agreement with all of that. I'm curious what they're quoting for getting that information about the glycogen specifically. I need to go read what study they're talking about from that. I'm wondering if everybody's referencing the same original source material for that.

Gin Stephens: That's what everyone's understanding is coming from the same because everybody's saying it this way, including Mark Mattson. Here's a big-time-- yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Everything that you just said is actually in agreement with everything that I was just pointing out that when we're fat adapted, we're switching into burning fats because-- the sentence you read about emerging research, it wasn't talking about glucose, it was talking about switching to fat burning.

Gin Stephens: The whole point of this journal article is the metabolic switch is that point where your liver glycogen is depleted enough for you to switch over. That's what they're calling the metabolic switch, flipping the metabolic switch. The metabolic switch is defined by them as the point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted, and fatty acids are mobilized. So, it's the point.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and then typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.

Gin Stephens: It sounded like the rat study was saying, “Hey, liver glycogen has nothing to do with it.” And I don't want people to think that's true.

Melanie Avalon: So, the consistency with the study wasn't glycogen stores, it was really the time? So, the fasting time? What Mattson says, and this is what I'm wondering because he says, “The point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted and fatty acids are mobilized typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.” What I'm wondering is, is it citing literature talking about liver glycogen stores being the key, also, it's overlapping with 12 hours being when that happens, when I'm just wondering if maybe it's the time, it's the 12 hours and maybe liver glycogen stores aren't necessarily completely depleted at 12 hours. We often say don't focus on ketones, don't stress about measuring ketones. I think it's the same thing with liver glycogen.

Gin Stephens: Well, oh, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't stress about it at all.

Melanie Avalon: It just seems like the more and more I read and think about this, that the prevailing idea is often that we deplete liver glycogen and then we start burning fat. And those are often lumped together with fasting because fasting is often the method of depleting liver glycogen. What I'm wondering is, maybe we think it's the liver glycogen depletion when it's partially that, but maybe also, or instead actually the fasting time. Because even what Mark Mattson said and I keep reading this, but he says, “The point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted and fatty acids are mobilized, typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.” It's a tiny nuance, but I'm wondering if we're focusing on this prevailing theory of liver glycogen depleting when really maybe that metabolic switch is the 12 hours. Maybe that's the metabolic switch. Maybe the metabolic switch isn't the glycogen.

Gin Stephens: I don't think so. I don't think it's time, and that's just because based on my experience and the experiments of so many other people, I actually can tell you when I've had vacations and I can tell I've refilled glycogen to the point that it takes me longer. I can tell some days that switch gets flipped sooner and a lot of it depends on what I ate the day before. So, no, I don't think 12 is the magic number. I think that is an average perhaps for someone who is metabolically flexible. Perhaps, if you're metabolically flexible around hour 12 is probably an average, that would be my hunch. But, no, I don't think it's time dependent. I do think it's energy balance dependent.

Melanie Avalon: My hunch is it might be more time dependent.

Gin Stephens: The reason that I don't think that that's true is just the way I feel differently on different days and I can pinpoint it, based on what I've been doing and how I've been eating.

Melanie Avalon: The other thing is liver glycogen caps at not that much. Usually, estimate is 100 grams, which is 400 calories. Even if you were to go on a crazy vacation, eat 5,000 carbs, it's actually not going to add any more extra liver glycogen. It'll fill muscles if they're not filled. So, there is more glycogen stores in the muscles, but that is reserved for the muscles. That's not going to affect probably your entrance into ketosis. So, you can't eat really more than what your liver glycogen stores allow, even if you go on a crazy, crazy, crazy carb binge. When you run out of glycogen stores in the liver and muscles, the carbs will either be burned off as energy or 2% to 3% up to potentially 10%, but it's probably more like 2% or 3%, will get turned into fat in the liver.

Gin Stephens: Can I interrupt real quick? I think it's a more gradual process than you're implying there because it's not like I go eat week on vacation. And then after day one of eating more, my glycogen is filled. I think just as we deplete it gradually overtime to get to the point where we're getting into ketosis every day, I don't think that you just eat one meal and then, bam, all that goes into glycogen storage. That's the thing. I know that the liver can only hold a certain amount, but I don't think that it refills it all up just from a meal. I've just noticed when I've had a day where I ate more, I'm fine. But it's when I've had several days-- It's like a gradual thing. Just like we have a gradual depletion, we have a gradual refilling.

Melanie Avalon: That's another thing is your liver glycogen stores. The more carbs you eat and long you eat, you can raise that potential to store more. I'm just confused, how does that affect when you would start generating ketones again?

Gin Stephens: Well, the last time I went on a cruise, I could tell it was a few days after being home before I started getting into ketosis during my fast. It took me a few days of being back on my normal fasting schedule. How do I know? Well, because I would need to take naps. I know my body well enough to know. Now, we have this ketone analyzer that you talk to them on your other podcast, and it's been really interesting that I can say, “Ooh, I feel like I'm in ketosis.” And then, I can blow and I'm getting numbers. Whereas I'm like, “Yeah, I can tell I'm not,” like first thing in the morning. But it's not always at the same time. It doesn't always correlate to, “Well, now I'm at 12 hours, I'm going to get a number.” Sometimes, it's earlier than 12 hours, depending on what I ate the day before or how much I ate if I had a short window. Sometimes, it's at 16 hours.

What's fascinating is, I've been doing this so long, I can feel when that metabolic switch is flipped, I feel it. And so, the breath ketone monitor has been great at confirming, like, “Ooh, I feel like the switch is flipped,” and then I'll use it and I'm like, “Yep, there it is.”

Melanie Avalon: So, if you eat a really big carb vacation meal, you think you don't get into ketosis at all the next day?

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, not if I just eat one big carb vacation meal. It takes a few days. Even if I just go away for a weekend and have two days with longer windows or something, it takes me more than just two days before my glycogen is filled up. If I go on cruise for five days, I'm going to come home and I'm going to have to re-deplete glycogen, I can feel it.

Melanie Avalon: So, when you have a big meal of carbs--?

Gin Stephens: I mean I have big, big carb meals every single day.

Melanie Avalon: You don't think it fills up your glycogen?

Gin Stephens: No. I don't think my body just shoves all those carbs into my liver. I think it uses a lot of them for energy because you're eating, your body’s using those carbs for energy. I think my body uses those carbs for energy that I've just eaten. And then, there may be a little bit to go into my glycogen stores, but not all of it.

Melanie Avalon: Because I'm not trying to argue or anything, just the thoughts that I'm having is that, it seems like people have glycogen stores filled or not filled, regardless if they fast like 16 hours, they're probably going to enter ketosis and it's not going to necessarily matter if the night before was keto, or was carbs if they're metabolic flexible. That's what I'm saying.

Gin Stephens: It really just all depends on what your body does with what you eat. And there's so many things your body could do with it depending on exercise and what you're doing.

Melanie Avalon: In these rats, the only group that did have to deplete glycogen completely to enter ketosis was aged rats on high-carb diets. So, presumably metabolically inflexible rats.

Gin Stephens: And again, depleting glycogen completely, I think is the thing that-- Mark Mattson didn't say you have to deplete it completely. You just have to get to the point. And maybe your liver is holding a reserve. It just depends that everybody has a different point. And it depends on how you've built up your fat-burning enzymes. I think there's a lot of factors here.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. What I'm saying is I think it's way more nuanced than the way it's posited because I think the way it's posited is everybody holds X amount of liver glycogen. You deplete liver glycogen, you enter ketosis. When it seems like it's more it depends on metabolic flexibility, depends on how easily your body can switch-- wants to switch to burning ketones, wants to make that switch. And if you are metabolically flexible, if you're doing a ketogenic diet that seems to make it. It seems like you're doing a ketogenic diet, so you're always keto all the time. Your body's not really going by glycogen at all for when it's generating certain amounts of ketones. But when you are eating carbs, if you're metabolically flexible, glycogen might not be playing as much as quite a big of a role in having to hit a certain depletion number before you switch over. But if you're metabolically inflexible, yeah, you've got to go through that, you've got to deplete.

Gin Stephens: I would just really encourage everybody to find that Mark Mattson’s article and read it, Flipping the Metabolic Switch, and dig into that. Dig into their references, go through that, and see what you can come up with yourself. But I do think Adam is correct that if you're not fat adapted, then you could have some issues, but that's the whole point of knowing that you're going to get to the other side of the fad adaption period. That's the whole point of the 28-day FAST Start in Fast. Feast. Repeat., is that your body is learning how to become fat adapted. And that's the part that takes time, and it can take more than 28 days if you're somebody who's very metabolically inflexible. That's just like a ballpark that you should give yourself at least that amount of time for it to happen. But once that switch is flipped, using the wording of Mark Mattson in his paper, that's when you become fat adapted.

The whole point is don't worry so much about what is your level of glycogen, where is it stored. Instead, you want to flip that metabolic switch so that your body can shift fuel sources as needed. And I think that's the only takeaway we really need to worry about. Fast sufficiently so that your body becomes fat adapted and you're able to switch fuel sources as needed to fuel your workout, to fuel your day, tap into your fat stores. I think that's all that matters.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, because I mean that's basically what I was saying is that it's more about the metabolic flexibility. The title of the study that I am referencing is called Metabolic Switching is impaired by aging and facilitated by ketosis independent of glycogen. To that point, what the study actually says, or what they say in their discussion is they say the prevailing theory regarding the initiation of ketogenesis is that ketone body production is triggered once the body depletes its glycogen stores. This glycogen depletion hypothesis likely stems from the body's natural metabolic response to vigorous exercise or longer fasts. It acknowledges that that is the prevailing theory. But then, it's talking about how there seemed to be a lot more-- a few more nuances and factors involved. But for listeners, yeah, we'll put links to all of this in the show notes so you can dive in deep. Like I said, this is just sort of my obsession just because I just feel like it's way more complicated.

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All right, now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: To address Adam’s questions, he says he's heard that when your liver runs out of glycogen, if you're not fat adapted, then your metabolism slows down instead of your body accessing its fat stores. We pretty consistently see that when you run out of glycogen is when that metabolic switch will start to happen. I do think there's an adaptation period where the body is resistant to making that switch in the beginning and it's going to want to make you hungry, make you want to not make that switch. But I wouldn't be worried about your metabolism slowing down per se, especially since a lot of the studies show that the more you do fasting, the metabolism can actually rise. Do you have thoughts about that specific one?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't think we have any specific study exactly, like following someone through the liver glycogen depletion process and measuring their metabolism. But this is all theoretic, anyway.

Melanie Avalon: If there is, it will be like Christmas. I want to read it, please send it to me.

Gin Stephens: That'd be cool. I'd like to read it too. But theoretically, if your liver ran out of glycogen, and you had no more fuel, and your body is not well fueled, that's when your metabolism would start slowing down. But your body is going to find that fat and get adapted pretty darn quick. That's the point of it.

Melanie Avalon: You know what's actually really interesting? I'm reading Cate Shanahan’s Fatburn Fix right now, and I'm getting deeper into it. It's kind of how you have your FAST start and then the purpose of that is to make people metabolically flexible and adapted, you're not focusing on weight loss, it's to make these changes. So, her approach is actually very similar, but a little bit different. So, she has phase one. And the goal of phase one is to reduce these hypoglycemia symptoms because she talks about how-- actually, like Adam’s first point, people who aren't fat-adapted yet, when they do but have liver glycogen, the body just freaks out, it doesn't know what to do and you get hypoglycemia. So, her approach, which also is similar to, Gin, how you have, how to ease in with a ketogenic diet if people want. Don't you do like a ketogenic?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they can use the low carb, yep, ease-in meals, we call them.

Melanie Avalon: She actually recommends everybody for the phase one. It is so interesting. Unless you don't struggle with hypoglycemia symptoms. So, it's basically the people who do have this metabolic inflexibility, they start with a phase one, which is actually a ketogenic diet rather than fasting. And then, when you don't have hypoglycemia symptoms, you go to phase two, which actually integrates intermittent fasting. This is so interesting. So, it's a different approach than yours, but it's similar and it's speaks to this whole concept of--

Gin Stephens: Of getting adapted. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. When you're metabolically flexible, which is supported, like I said, by that rat study. When you're metabolically flexible and the body is able to switch fuel sources, then it just happens. And glycogen, we might not even necessarily know what's happening specifically there and things might be changing with that. I do want to talk about the second question, which was if your liver runs out when you're exercising and you're not fat adapted, your body will use protein and amino acids to provide energy instead of fat stores. The body breaks down protein for two different reasons from your muscle. One would be for amino acids during catabolic activity. So, if you're breaking down muscle, you're breaking down muscle, like doing resistance training and things like that. Yes, that will break down muscle for amino acids. However, we talked about this actually I think last episode maybe. When you eat, again, you feed, in your feeding in your eating window, that's restored. So, that's not a problem.

I think he's probably more thinking about he says to provide energy. So, yes, the body can turn to protein to create glucose if it's not metabolically flexible, everything I just said, because it has the option. So, if it's not metabolically flexible, you run out of liver glycogen, it can start burning fats, it can start doing ketones, but it also has the option of actually still trying to go the sugar route. And to do that, it will break down muscle into amino acids to create blood sugar, which is not something we want. But that is why I think a lot of people get stuck in that phase. Like I just said with Cate Shanahan’s, talking about people having hypoglycemia problems. The solution to that is becoming fat adapted, and then it shouldn't as much be a problem because your body will be switching to fats rather than trying to make carbs from amino acids.

Gin Stephens: Also, one other thing I thought you were going to say and you didn't. When you're exercising, you can get glycogen stored from your muscle as well. There's glycogen stored there that can fuel your muscles.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's actually the primary fuel for them.

Gin Stephens: Right. Running out of glucose in the liver, he mentions, but you've got some glycogen in your muscles already too.

Melanie Avalon: So, locally, the glycogen in your muscles will be feeding those muscles. The hypoglycemia symptoms will probably come in from the liver, that would be the thing that's doing that. So, that process of like, “Oh, let's break down muscle to create blood sugar,” that would probably be liver dependent, I'm guessing.

And then, his thing about exercise at the end of a fast empties your liver and actually trains your body to be fat adapted. I do think we see pretty well a lot of people when they do exercise at the end of a fast, I think a lot of people do find benefit from it, especially if they're struggling to get fat adapted because-- I don’t know. I'm not talking chronic cardio high-intensity endurance for a long time. But slow-moving exercise at the end of a fast, I think, would be a great way because if it's slow moving, it's telling your body, “Hey, we need long-term fuel here.” So, it's not going to be stimulating, like asking for quick blood sugar. I think slower movement, exercise type at the end of a fast like walking, yoga, things like that might be more supportive of making that switch.

Actually, to that point, one other thing I forgot to mention from that rat study was they actually found--and this is something that users of the Lumen device that I've talked about before, which is like a breath carb analyzer, have been finding. They often are finding that exercise during the fast or if they're doing a ketogenic diet, seems to switch them over to carb burning. And this study with the rats, they found that the ketogenic fasting rats when they injected them with epinephrine-- so, basically a stress response, to mimic exercise, the ketogenic rats actually released more blood sugar in response. They had a higher blood glucose response from exercise, which was really, really fascinating. They argue that that show that the rats were more metabolically flexible because they could generate more glucose on-demand from adrenaline aka stress or exercise. I don't know how I feel about that conclusion. It was really, really fascinating regardless.

Lastly, we didn't answer yet, Beth’s question about, “Do you need more carbs to fuel your exercise for glycogen stores?” So, there have been a lot of studies on people on-- more on, I've seen studies on ketogenic diets and athletes tend to adapt eventually to the ketogenic diet, and then they're not dependent on glycogen during exercise. Their glycogen stores typically don't really change that much during exercise because they're fat adapted. If you're not fat-adapted, you likely might need more carbs. And then a lot of high performing athletes just find that honestly, especially if it's like high intensity that they just need more carbs. And I think a lot of people, especially they've been doing ketogenic diets for a long time with fasting, maybe their energy's not quite there, they often find that adding in more carbs to their eating window really does help their performance.

Beth was talking about how she feels like she can't have the best of both worlds. Like if she brings in carbs, her endurance increases, but she doesn't lose the weight. I would suggest, Beth, if you haven't, trying a low-fat, high-carb diet, you might find that with intermittent fasting, I think that might give you the best of both worlds where you're going to be able to fuel that exercise with enough glycogen and then not having the fat with it, you might find that you lose weight.

Gin Stephens: I also wanted to point out that, Beth said her weight loss stalled. She said she was lower carb and then started to eat, what she said was “less clean,” and she had more endurance. Basically, she was lower carb, added some more carbs in, had more endurance. And then, she says my weight loss stalled. I think that she might possibly have had some confusion there with her weight because if you reintroduce carbs, your body can retain excess water with the extra carbs. As you have more glycogen, your body holds water with the glycogen. And also, when you're having more endurance, maybe she's building muscle, but I think you can't just strictly go by what the scale is saying.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Actually, I'm so glad you brought that up. I missed that. Also, she's correlating that she eats higher carbs which are less clean, and her weight loss stalls. It might not be the carbs making your weight loss stall, it might be the less clean aspect of it.

Gin Stephens: It's hard to know what she means by that and how much of a different change there was. But just we know that reintroducing carbs, whether they're “clean” or not, can lead to water retention, and it's not a bad thing and it's not fat gain, and it can make the scale go up. So, you can be like, “Oh my gosh, I'm gaining weight.” When really, you're not gaining fat. And it feels like your weight loss is stalling but really, it's just you have a different water balance than you had before.

Melanie Avalon: It could be that when she was eating clean, she wasn't having inflammation from the foods. And if she’s starting to eat these “less clean foods,” we don't know what they are, but inflammation can play a massive role. So, if you're taking in inflammatory foods, I would hardcore encourage you, Beth-- You said that when you eat cleaner that naturally makes you eat less carbs. You can eat high carb "clean,” not hard. Fruits are high in carbs, sweet potatoes, starches, rice. I would at 100% like dying to know. I'd love for you to try a “clean” especially since that seems to work for you a “clean,” whole foods, high-carb approach. See what happens. And if that doesn't work for low-fat version of that. So, things to experience.

I think a lot of people adapt to exercise with low carb diets, but some just never do. And they find that when they bring in the carbs, they're able to. And then, if you want to lose weight, looking at those types of carbs and what you're eating, and whether or not you're eating fat can play a huge, huge role.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And as you're switching carbs in and out, I would really use progress photos to see-- Somebody today in one of the Facebook groups posted a photo. And she's like, “I've only lost one pound and I'm so discouraged.” And she posted side-by-side photos, and it was like incredible the difference between the two. So, the scale doesn't tell the true story. If you thought you'd only lost one pound, that would be really discouraging. But you looked at her photos and you're like, “Man, look at how--” it was the same shirt she had in the other photo, and it was like loose as opposed to being skin tight. It was incredible the difference between the two photos. She's like, "What am I doing wrong?” What you're doing wrong is letting the scale be the Debbie Downer here. Sorry if your name is Debbie. I don't know. I feel bad for everybody named Debbie because when I say Debbie Downer-- [laughs] Don't let your scale be your downer when you're seeing results somewhere else.

Melanie Avalon: That's such a great point. All right. So, a lot there.

Gin Stephens: This is from Jessica. And her subject is Daylight Savings Time Changes. I would like to actually just propose let's just quit doing that. Let's just leave the time where it is. I don't like the switching. The switching drives me crazy. All right.

She says, “Hello, Gin and Melanie. I'm a huge fan of all your podcasts and listen to you weekly. I started IF in January of this year, and then found Delay, Don't Deny in March. Since then, I've joined all the Facebook groups, read all your books, and truly immersed myself in learning as much as I can about the benefits of fasting daily. Since January, I've lost 30 pounds and dropped from a size 14 pushing to a 16 to a size 10. I've also seen a dramatic decrease in inflammation and IBS symptoms.

My husband has also joined me on this journey, dropping from a size 40 waist to a 36. And together, we have adopted a 24, one-meal-a-day pattern and love it. This is truly the lifestyle we want to live long term.

As I stated before, I started my IVF journey in the winter. So, my question may seem a bit silly, but I'm wondering if you have any advice for successfully transitioning through the time change to the fall, winter seasons. I'm particularly worried about having less outdoor time and less sunlight hours, as these have been my go-to escapes while fasting.

I'm having a hard time envisioning what one meal a day will look like in the colder months. Right now, I love taking my Topo Chico outside and sipping on it throughout my lunch break, but that won't be as appealing when it's a rainy Oregon day outside. I always get a bit sad when it's dark in the morning and dark again by 6:00 PM. In the past, that sadness has been buffered by hearty foods and delicious beverages, and I'm nervous about falling into old habits. Thank you for taking the time to ease the mind of a worrier and obsessive planner. Jessica.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Jessica. So, this is a great question. And two big things we can tackle, the practical approaches to working with the time change and stuff like that, and then the mental aspect of everything she talks about. Okay, just from a light perspective, Jessica, get a Joovv if you don't have a Joovv. Because regulating your circadian rhythm I think is so important and one of the nice things about it is I consciously regulate my circadian rhythm every single day regardless of the time change or how light works in the world. I always am hacking it at home myself. So, in the morning, bright light exposure, I have a Daylight, like high-lux device that outputs really bright light. Those are often used to treat things like seasonal affective disorder. I'll put a link in the show notes to the one that I have. It's called Daylight.

And then, I run my Joovv devices for ambient lighting in the morning and evening, so that's red and near-infrared light. So, red is the type of light naturally found in the rising and setting sun. So, when you have it in the morning and in the evening, you're mimicking that rising and setting feeling regardless of what it actually is outside. I know most people who turn to Joovv for like skin health or muscle recovery or the metabolic benefits, honestly for the mood, it's my thing. I can't even express my gratitude I have for it.

And then, on top of that, I know this is controversial, but I would actually really, really suggest in the darker months getting a membership at a tanning bed. You want to get the UVB beds. So, those actually typically tend to be the cheaper beds because that's the wavelength that does make people burn. But it's the wavelength that is going to stimulate vitamin D production in your skin. And I'm talking about going for a minute. I'm not talking like-- you're not going in there to get tanned. You're just going in there to get some natural vitamin D exposure. You can weigh the cost benefits. I know skin cancer is a real thing, I don't take it lightly. But I think for a lot of people, especially if you're struggling with vitamin D levels, especially if you're struggling with mood, having exposure to UV light to generate vitamin D in your skin, especially in darker months, can be huge. So, I get a package in the winter. Proceed with caution. I'm not doctor, but I do really, really suggest that. I have some other things, but Gin, did you want to say some things?

Gin Stephens: Well, I was just going to say to Jessica or anybody else who is in a similar situation, a lot of people started fasting in January, especially after intermittent fasting was everywhere in December after Mark Mattson’s article came out in New England Journal of Medicine and then everyone was talking about intermittent fasting everywhere. So, I'm sure there's a lot of people who started right at the same time. I want you to just stop worrying right now, everybody who started at the same time. You will just gradually find that you start to crave different things, you will find that you start to just-- it'll happen. It happens gradually, just as the seasons change gradually.

For example, one day I'm drinking my San Pellegrino, and then the next day I'm like, “Ooh, I think I would like a hot mug of water,” a mug of hot water. We call it [unintelligible [00:59:31]. Have I told you that, Melanie, have you heard me call it that? Somebody in the group made that up. I can't remember who. I put it in Fast. Feast. Repeat., because I love it so much. So, you'll have a new routine, Jessica, instead of having Topo Chico outside, you'll have a mug of hot water and you'll be somewhere cozy. And it'll feel great because Christmas Carols will be on or something. You'll just have something to look forward to it.

Yeah, you probably will have more hearty foods, but I find my body craves those. I have a shift in what I want. When we stop the podcast for today, I'm going to go and break my fast, and I'm going to have-- I have some broccoli, and I have some hummus. I'm going to have that. It's going to be delicious. But if it were December, I would probably not be craving cold broccoli and hummus. I would want something maybe cozier, like you said, maybe a mug of soup or something like that. So, you'll make the shift. It'll happen gradually as the weather changes. I promise you, you can do it.

Melanie Avalon: You could also get super-duper excited about winter like I am. No, guys, it's funny, I have the opposite response. I'm like winter is the time to get in shape, get that cold therapy, get those longevity genes going, make your body stronger. Honestly, we could have a complete reframe here.

Gin Stephens: I'm just so sad when I have to put on pants, shoes.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. It's so funny how we're all so different. I literally dread the coming of summer and love the coming of winter. And then, people have the complete opposite response.

Gin Stephens: It's true.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all of the stuff that we like, that's at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram, we're @ifpodcast. I'm at @melanieavalon. Gin is at @ginstephens. Oh, and I forgot to mention. The Lumen thing I mentioned, I started a group for people who have that device or who have a Biosense Ketone Analyzer and that is called Lumen Lovers and Biosense Biohackers. You can also join my Facebook group, IF Biohackers. Anything else, Gin, you'd like to put out there? Get Fast. Feast. Repeat. at Target?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, well, in November, don't go out and get it yet because it's not there, although you can order it online from Target. They have it online, but anywhere that sells books I think you can get it in their online, but in the actual store, you can wait till November. I'm so excited.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, talk to you then. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 176 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Hi friends. As you guys know, we always say that when you eat is just as important as what you eat to fulfill your best wellness lifestyle. Guess what? The same thing goes for natural light. With our modern indoor lifestyles, it can be hard to get enough natural light from the sun but getting a good amount of healthy light is important for your health. That's why we use and adore Joovv Red Light Therapy products. They shine wavelengths of red and near-infrared light right in the comfort of your own home.

You've heard us talk about Joovv before. They're our preferred brand because with their modular design, you can actually treat your entire body in the light. That helps support healthier cells for more energy, less inflammation, and better healing and recovery. I've personally been using my Joovv Mini at home for years now. I literally turn it on every single day. It's essential for keeping my daily routine on track and feeling my best.

I use the red light in the morning in the evening to really set my circadian rhythm and mood, and I use near-infrared during the day for targeted treatments. Joovv is by far the highest quality light therapy brand out there, and the customer service and the people are exceptional.

A lot of people's favorite reasons for using Joovv is for enhanced muscle recovery and targeted fat burning, enhance skin, but I think honestly my favorite is just the incredible effect it has on my mood. Joovv is literally a part of my daily life and I can't imagine my life without it. And now, qualifying customers can take advantage of special finance offers including 0% APR for up to 12 months. You can get your own device at joovv.com/ifpodcast and using that link with the code IFPODCAST will get you a free gift with your purchase.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that what you put on your skin gets direct access to your bloodstream and in your body can do a lot of detrimental things? So, while you may be fasting clean, you may at the same time be infusing your body with endocrine disrupters, which can mess with your hormones, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight and even carcinogens. In Europe, they've banned thousands of these compounds found and conventional skincare and makeup, and the US has banned less than 10. In fact, most conventional lipstick for example is high in lead. And the half-life of lead in the body can be up to 30 years. That means every time you put on some lipstick, you might be putting some lead into your bones, which might not leave for three decades. This is a big deal. Thankfully, there's an easy all-encompassing answer.

There's a company called Beauty Counter, and they were founded on a mission to make skincare and makeup products that are safe for your skin. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to not burden your body and support your skin health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd like to learn more about safe beauty and also get a ton of have amazing discounts and free things from me, definitely get on my Clean Beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. Not sure which Beauty Counter products to try? I also just made a whole series of online quizzes to match you to your perfect product. Those are at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. So, here's the fasting clean inside and out. All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode #176 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, if I sound tired, it's because I've just been on hold for an hour and a half with a company trying to get a product returned. So, I'm tired. Thank goodness for intermittent fasting or I would have needed like a couple meals and snacks in there.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know. That's when you really know.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: When things like that do happen, and you're doing fasting, it's like the complete opposite. You're focused and-- I don't know, it's very helpful.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's true. Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Is it resolved?

Gin Stephens: Well, no, but they're going to get to the bottom of it and send me an email. I'm like, “Okay, we'll see.”

Melanie Avalon: Our modern world of online delivery.

Gin Stephens: Here's the only thing I would like to say, I'm not going to mention any companies. But if you're ever shopping on one company, and this is not Amazon, it's a different one. So, not Amazon. If you're ever shopping on one company and it is their platform, but it is coming from another company but through their platform, do not do it. Go straight to the second company, do not order it through the other person. Because if you have a problem, neither company will-- They're like, “Oh, sorry, you need to talk to them. You need talk to them.” They're like, “Oops, that's them.” They're like, “Oops," Anyway, I got switched back and forth a whole bunch of times.

Melanie Avalon: It's actually like on Amazon ordering directly--

Gin Stephens: From a third-party seller?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: The good thing though is Amazon is really good about handling it.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I was going to say. They'll take care of you if the other company refuses to deal with it.

Gin Stephens: Yes, but this has just been very frustrating. So, the company that it's going to come from is who I would suggest you start with. Learned a very important lesson. I mean it's taken forever, so it's going to be fine. It's still this one bathroom. All this goes back to that one bathroom that we've been remodeling since January.

Melanie Avalon: Is this a guest bathroom?

Gin Stephens: It's a guest bathroom. Thank goodness. Although, funny story, the master bathroom is also unusable. So, we live in a four-bathroom house. And right now, we're showering in the other guest bathroom on the other side of the main floor because the people that lived in our house bought very fancy fixtures all the time. They didn't go to Home Depot and Lowe's and buy, I don't know, Delta faucets. They got super fancy faucets that you get through a designer that cost a bazillion dollars. But also, did you know that faucets and fixtures are not interchangeable. If our faucet was leaking in our master shower, you can't just swap it out. You have to get the same exact brand inside the wall because they have separate fixture attachments. I don't think I'm explaining it right. But yes.

Melanie Avalon: That makes sense. That's upsetting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, all the plumbers that have been coming, they're like, “We don't even know what brand this is," but you're going to have to dig it out and start over with. So, we can't shower in our master bathroom either because it's all disconnected. They're going to have to cut the tile, cut out the connection, and they're going to have to redo that. And then, they put this plate over it. So, hods, the cut they had to make. So, we're 50% in the bathroom department at the Stephens house, but thank goodness, we have extras, so it's really not a big deal. I'm getting exercise walking to the other side of the house for all my showers.

Melanie Avalon: That's true.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Anyway, eventually, actually, you're never finished in a house. I was going to say eventually we'll be done, but we won't. There'll be another project and another and another. That's just houses.

Melanie Avalon: I feel it's also 2020, a lot of people doing home projects and things like that.

Gin Stephens: It's really true. We had an architect come and draw up a screen porch edition and we've got a builder lined up. We have actually got two that are going to submit bids to us. And it's been two weeks, and we haven't even heard back from either of them. I think people are doing a lot of home remodeling right now because they're like, “If I'm going to be home, it's going to have to be amazing.” It'll all be done, so we're in good shape. I'm not complaining.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, all of my projects have been just going through all the stuff for my life. When quarantine-type stuff started, I was like, “Oh, in a month, I'll have gone through everything.” And still, here we are, I'm still doing it. So, it feels good, though.

Gin Stephens: What do you mean?

Melanie Avalon: I have so much memories, like photos and papers that I wanted to go through and throw out and make into scrapbooks, and then stuff from childhood. Just go through everything and try to cleanse my life. My habit now that I do every night that feels so good is, I only take about 15 minutes but I sit down, I turn on my Netflix, I watch something and I scrapbook, and I turn off all social media. And it feels so good. Feels really good. I recommend scrapbooking. You don't like scrapbooking though.

Gin Stephens: No.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: I don't. I do recommend putting aside social media, it's harder for me with coordinating the large groups. Because even though I have fabulous moderators, they're amazing, sometimes they have questions for me. I do sleep, so they figure it out. They're awesome. But if I'm awake, I'm not too far from social media just because I feel I should be accessible to them.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, that's the way I am pretty much 24/7 with the exception of, I was like, “I'm just going to take this time and I'm just not, and I'm going to scrapbook.” Actually, really the reason I like scrapbooking is a lot of people are like, “Oh, you should color,” or “You should do something.” But I always feel I need to be productive or creating something. So, I can't just watch the TV. I have to make something. I feel like I was productive.

Gin Stephens: See, I can. I can just watch TV. But I put my phone to the side. Every night, Chad and I watch TV together. We watch one episode of something and whatever series we're working our way through. I put the phone down, although Messenger still pops up if I need to chat with the moderators, but I don't moderate the groups unless there's like an emergency. A Facebook emergency, but other than that, yeah, I do put it aside. I can just sit and watch television.

Melanie Avalon: I wish I could. It's a goal.

Gin Stephens: Well, I can't listen to things on audio. So, we're all different, and I think that's okay. I have no goal to change.

Melanie Avalon: Well, with audio, I do other things during it. That's my problem, is I need to be-- I'm like addicted to multitasking.

Gin Stephens: See, I prefer to focus on one thing. I think that just explained a lot right there. I don't like multitasking.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I love it.

Gin Stephens: Whatever I'm doing, I am engaged in that.

Melanie Avalon: The only time I'm not multitasking is probably when I'm doing these shows, honestly. Yeah, doing these episodes is a relief because I don't multitask during it and I just take a moment.

Gin Stephens: Well, maybe if you realize the multitasking is stressing you out, you could try to focus on one thing at a time.

Melanie Avalon: It's the complete opposite.

Gin Stephens: It sounded like you were saying it was a relief to not be multitasking.

Melanie Avalon: Well, yes and no. I love multitasking, and it makes me feel good. Then, I feel I shouldn't be. So then, I won't, but then I want to. So, the best for me is just except that I like multitasking, but then also take these moments where I'm not multitasking to balance it out, like this show, for example. So, yeah. Can I share a really quick PSA?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, as you guys know, Gin and I are not fans of measuring things like ketones to evaluate your state of ketosis, especially urinary ketone strips, because we'd rather you focus on the practical implementation of the fast and not whether or not your ketones are a certain level. That's been the messaging since day one, and I still stand by that. That said, for those people who are interested in doing a really deep dive into measuring their state of ketosis because that actually at the same time is also a really big passion of mine. I think it's actually very incredible and valid, if you are the type, that's your goal. It's not about the fasting. It's not about the lifestyle. It's because you're trying to literally hack something in your life with a ketogenic diet, whether it's like a health condition or something specific like that.

The reason I'm saying all of this is I recently had Trey Suntrup from a company called Biosense. They make the ketone breath analyzer, which their studies show, it's pretty comparable to what you can learn from a blood analyzer, like pricking your finger, with some exceptions. You'd have to listen to episode for the whole nuance. The reason I'm saying all this is, I'm actually really big fan of that, I have a Biosense device. And I realized after releasing that episode that a lot of people thought that I personally think you should never measure ketones, which is not at all what I personally think. So, this is just a really brief PSA that if that is of interest to you, I support it. Melanie does. Come into my community, my separate community from this show for that, so I'll put a link in the show notes to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast episode where I talked about it, and also my Facebook group which is IF Biohackers. So, if that's of interest to you, definitely join me there. I just wanted to share that really quick PSA.

For normal people, not normal people, but if you're not the crazy biohacking, wanting to measure the ketones, like that whole thing, just keep on keeping on. Don't stress about ketones please. And please, please, don't get urinary ketones ships because we could talk for an hour about why those are very misleading. For people who are new to the show, new to this whole world, basically, when you first start entering into ketosis through intermittent fasting or a ketogenic diet or something like that, at the beginning, your body starts creating a lot of ketones. And there's actually three types of ketones, which is what I learned in that episode, you've got to listen to it. Your body starts creating a lot of them and in the initial beginning, it's not quite adept at using them because it's just not, and a lot of them get excreted through the urine.

So, at the beginning, people will often see something on their urinary test strips if they're using those, but as you continue into ketosis, it all changes. Like I said, there's actually three types of ketones, BHB, acetoacetate, and acetone. And all of that gets nuanced and changes around the more you get ketogenic and your body gets adapted to fasting. So, things are basically really complicated and it's very helpful to have a very comprehensive understanding if it's something that you do want to explore, which is again, why I wanted to have that episode on my other show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, any comments on that, Gin?

Gin Stephens: No. I think that was great. And thank you for clearing all that up.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. All right. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, to start things off, we have some feedback. This feedback comes from Trina, the subject is “New.” Was that the entire subject, do you think? I don't know. She says, “Hi, Gin. I'm just becoming interested in IF since entering early menopause and having difficulty losing weight. I'll admit hearing Gin reference her previous weight at 210 on episode nine,” that was episode nine of our show? Wow. Long time ago.

Gin Stephens: I've probably said it on lots of episodes.

Melanie Avalon: “Was very revealing, but more so that transparency encouraged me. I'm currently 48 years old and I'm 209,” so very similar to Gin what your weight was, “at a very low point. I'm starting with your earlier podcasts, so I'm aways from your current podcast. Just know that I'll be stalking you guys to get caught up. Just wanted to say hi, and thanks.” I wonder when she'll get caught up to this episode. But, yeah, I thought that was a nice little thing to share.

Gin Stephens: Thank you, Trina. And you're right. Yeah, I was 210. And it's really hard to believe that was me, even to me, because it's been so long ago. That was 2014, so it's been over six years since I was at that weight. You can do it, Trina. Be patient with your body if you're entering early menopause because that's not a season of our lives known for easy weight loss. Just be prepared that while you're going through the hormonal shifts of menopause, it might take some time to see the weight loss that you're looking for.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, I think that's great.

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Judy. Judy says, “Hello. What fasting app do you recommend? And I had been doing intermittent fasting for several weeks. I felt better, lost a few pounds, and then sort of fell off the wagon. And I'm finding it hard to get back on. How do you suggest getting restarted when you break the cycle of intermittent fasting? Thanks.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, two great questions. So, fasting apps, do you recommend a go-to one or do you not? I remember you talked about it in your book, but you didn't mention one, right?

Gin Stephens: I did have a go-to app, but now I don’t. My go-to app was the one that my son Cal made, he made it for me. It was Window Intermittent Fasting Tracker. He made it for me back in 2016. At that time, 2016, there are like two apps out there. And one of them you could preset for 16:8 or 24, and that was it. And they also had maybe a couple of apps that let you track your fast, but I was wanting to track my eating window. So, I was like, "I need you to make me an app. I want to track my window." And so, it was called “Window,” not surprisingly. And over time, he made it better and better and better. It was fabulous.

And then a year ago, he was graduating from Georgia Tech and getting ready to start a full-time job at Airbnb, which is where he is working now. And he was also about to set out on this amazing cruise with his now-wife, and he was going to be proposing and he was really just kind of done with having to monitor an app all the time. He provided fabulous customer support, by the way, but he sold the app. Long story short, sold it to another company, and they have since changed the app a lot. And also, they have a new pricing structure. So, people who used it for a long, long time, found that it was really different.

I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for the Window app, but we're no longer affiliated with it. And so, I hate to recommend it just because some of the changes they made, it's very clear were made by people who don't understand intermittent fasting. Does that make sense? Some of the wording like, “Choose your intermittent fasting diet,” kind of wording. It no longer fits with my mindset towards fasting, if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: I was actually really, really curious if that was the case or if that had happened. So, it's really interesting.

Gin Stephens: They changed it. Interestingly, they didn't offer to stay connected to me, because if they had, I would have been willing to give them lots of great advice and also promoting it in the communities. But they did not, which is fine. They bought the app, they can do what they want with it. But some of the changes were not changes that were well received by the people who had been using it for years. That's all I'm going to say.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, actually, we've had quite a few apps approach us about partnering with the show and there's not really like one app, I think, that we endorse. And oftentimes, it's actually ties back into what I was saying at the beginning about measuring ketones and things like that, especially with ketones people will think, “Oh, this measure means this,” or, “This means this.” Some of the apps will say like, “Oh, at this time, you're entering autophagy,” and it's like, how do they know that?

Gin Stephens: They've added that to the Window app as well.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?

Gin Stephens: I think so. I hear from people. I still have the original version because I have mine set to not update. So, if I ever wanted to use it again, I could still use the old version. And I'm not anti the Window app. So, nobody think that I am, I will always have a very soft spot for it. But sometimes people think I'm still affiliated with it because I talked about it in Delay, Don't Deny. And I want to make it clear that I'm not, that's all I'm saying.

Melanie Avalon: This is like the episode of making things clear. [laughs] Making it clear where we stand on things. Oh, my goodness, that's really funny. The only app I've actually used, and I haven't used it extensively, and I don't know if they've made updates and I don't know your thoughts, Gin, but I have used Zero before.

Gin Stephens: I say I haven't used any of the others. That's the thing. I've never used them. I had no need to. And even right now, I have no need to because if I wanted to use an app, I would just use my version of Window the original that. It's not the original, he updated it, so it's the version that it was when he handed it over. That's what I still have.

Melanie Avalon: I'm impressed that you've been able to maintain not updating it. I feel like the iPhone is really good at sneaking in.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I have that turned off, the automatic updates.

Melanie Avalon: I do too. I don't know, but I feel they find ways.

Gin Stephens: They're not updating that. If they ever did, well, okay, but it would be lost to me, but I hope they don't because I feel like almost like I'm the mother of that app, too.

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's so interesting.

Gin Stephens: And now it's grown up and doing its own thing, so I can no longer control it. It's doing its own. Living its own life. There's a nice analogy for you.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. Well, so we're not that much help there. But now our thoughts on fasting apps.

Gin Stephens: Well, the second part of her question.

Melanie Avalon: Her second part about getting back on the wagon. I guess we should first address, is she falling off the wagon? I think you talked about that in your book, didn't you, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I do. I have a whole chapter. “There is no wagon.”

Melanie Avalon: And why is there no wagon?

Gin Stephens: Well, because intermittent fasting is a lifestyle, and I want you to commit to-- Judy and anyone listening, I want you to commit to, “Hey, I live in intermittent fasting lifestyle.” And so, here's what happens when you're in the cycle of wagons and on and off the wagon. You get off the wagon, and you're like, “Well, I quit. I'm not doing that.” And then, you get in this cycle of, I'm not doing it, but then you are doing it, but then I'm not doing it. Instead, think of, you are an intermittent faster and some days you'll have shorter fasts. And some days, you'll have longer fasts. If you have some days where you only fast for 12 hours because you get up and eat breakfast at 8:00 AM and then you stop eating by 8:00 PM, and you had a 12-hour eating period that day, you still had a 12-hour fast. So, if you just think of it like that and it breaks the cycle of off and on, that can really just help you free up the mental space to like, “Okay, I didn’t quit. I'm not off the wagon. I didn't fall off. I just had some longer eating windows, some shorter fasts, and I'm ready to tighten up that eating window.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's so important, so key. Honestly, my suggestion is just jump back in like the way you would at the beginning.

Gin Stephens: People who had been doing intermittent fasting very sporadically, and they weren't really doing it and then maybe the whole quarantine derailed people completely, and they just completely stopped from the stress. And so, a lot of people who had been experienced intermittent fasters and then quit, found that doing the 28-Day FAST Start from Fast. Feast. Repeat., helped them get their mind back in the game. Because the key is, you've got to get your mind back in the game and your body has to get back in the game. If you've been off intermittent fasting for a long time, it sounds easy to say just start back but your body's going to have to be retrained. Start fresh if you need to, but once you make that mental shift, I am doing an intermittent fasting lifestyle, then you never have to tell yourself I've fallen off the wagon ever again. You're just, “Well, today, I had a shorter fast and that's okay.”

Melanie Avalon: I do have an idea that I think some people like to do, I like to do this, but I've also read that you shouldn't do this. So, I'm actually really curious to hear your thoughts on it. But that's for with any new “habit,” although not that intermittent fasting is a habit. Like we just said, it's a lifestyle and you're not on or off. But with something like that, I love having my calendar, and I really love Lisa Frank.

I have these big sticker books of Lisa Frank stickers. And I love putting them each day on the calendar if I'm trying some new habit or if it was a dietary approach, or maybe it's a new window, every day. It's the Streaks idea, like the Streaks app that a lot of people have. I find it really motivating and encouraging and I think it shows me patterns really well in my life. But I've also read that you shouldn't do that because then it can make people nervous that they're going to break their streak. But I personally find it really helpful. Do you have thoughts on stuff like that, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, when you think about that, the 28-Day FAST Start is a similar idea. I'm encouraging people to give yourself 28 days to let your body adjust and every day you're doing it. So, I completely agree with the mindset of getting into a habit, then you just keep doing it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And I think it can be hard to remember-- well, not hard to remember, but when you see it, especially in your bright, spark Lisa Frank stickers, especially if you've been doing it a few days, you can look and automatically see, “Wow, it feels good. Oh, look at me.”

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I'm a schoolteacher. Those kind of things are right up my alley. I could make you a sticker chart at any moment. I could break one out. [laughs] Do not question sticker charts to an elementary teacher. Ah-ha. I'll make you a sticker chart.

Melanie Avalon: It's also really great if you find the perfect calendar which, friends, I have found the perfect calendar. I now order it every single year. I'll put link to it in the show notes. I forget the brand, but it's pretty much like-- it's some artists but every month is an animal. I'm a sucker for colors and glitter as you might imagine with the Lisa Frank reference, but it's just the most beautiful, motivating, inspiring colors ever. So, if you get that calendar and get some Lisa Frank stickers, it's a very motivational thing for your kitchen.

Gin Stephens: And does anyone know my thoughts about glitter?

Melanie Avalon: I'm guessing Gin does not like glitter.

Gin Stephens: I don't like glitter.

Melanie Avalon: You don't like glitter?

Gin Stephens: Oh my God. Glitter is like from Satan.

Melanie Avalon: Ask me what is my favorite thing?

Gin Stephens: Is it glitter?

Melanie Avalon: I love glitter.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I was a gifted teacher and I let the children do anything in the entire world that did not break the law. If it was not against the law or the school rules, they could literally do anything they wanted in my classroom creatively, except for one thing.

Melanie Avalon: No glitter.

Gin Stephens: No glitter. A new kid, I remember one day, she's like, “Do you have any glitter?” And the other kids were like, “She does not. She does not have glitter.” [laughs] I'm like, “I got anything else you want. I got everything up in my tubs up on the cabinets." I had anything, you name it, I could pull it out. But there was no glitter.

Melanie Avalon: Can I share one of my favorite memories? Which would have been probably one of your worst memories?

Gin Stephens: Did it involve getting glitter everywhere? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: In college, I went with my two best girlfriends to a Kesha concert, who we know-- Kesha is a big glitter fan. You can tell this was before my Beauty Counter days. I think we took hairspray. I think it was hairspray. It was. Oh, my goodness, Gin, I have changed so much. We took hairspray and we sprayed our entire bodies with hairspray and then we took glitter and we just threw it on our body so that we were just like walking glitter.

Gin Stephens: Oh my God, I would not even allow you into my house. I would have to hose you down in the neighbor's yard. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh. I'm going to send you a picture from my scrapbook.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, make a scrapbook page of that one. That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: I do have a scrapbook page of that one, so I will send to you.

Gin Stephens: Sharpies. Those are my things. I had so many Sharpies, you wouldn’t believe it. Sharpies and markers and paper.

Melanie Avalon: Did you have those scented markers?

Gin Stephens: Mr. Sketch?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: That's the brand. Yep. Mr. Sketch.

Melanie Avalon: Do they still make those?

Gin Stephens: They do still make Mr. Sketch. I didn't like them though. I liked them when I was a kid. But as a grownup, I didn't, because I realized I didn't like fake smelly things.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. Now, I would not. They would not be allowed in the apartment, but in childhood--

Gin Stephens: And all the children over there huffing the markers. Yeah, no, we didn't do that. I did not have those in my classroom. But I did that as a child.

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So, our next question comes from, Jen. It's a long one, are you ready? So, the subject is, “Modified ADF Update Number of Meals Versus Overall Nutritional Content.” Okay, this was long, but I think it has a really good question in it.

So, Jen says, “Hi, ladies, I recently discovered your great podcast and I binge-listened to all the episodes to catch up on everyone to see if my question has been answered before writing in, but I don't think it has, at least not quite for my specific question. Regarding alternate day fasting, I'm wondering if it's the number and/or timing of the meals on the up days that matters most or is it the overall nutritional intake? With one large meal that is roughly equivalent in terms of nutritional content to two smaller meals spread over a longer eating window be equally protective of metabolic rate?

Some background on me, I'm a woman in my late 30s with a normal BMI and I had been doing low carb, high fat as well as a prolonged stint of keto with IF 16:8 throughout with some days off on the weekends for the past three years, or so I thought. After listening to this podcast, I now know I wasn't fasting clean or even really fasting at all, to be honest, because I was just putting just a splash of heavy whipping cream or unsweetened plant-based creamer in my coffee because based on what others had told me, I was still fasting as long as I was consuming under 50 calories and not using any sweetener. I was also drinking a bunch of unsweetened flavored dessert teas like vanilla bean, macaron, and butterscotch Blondie, as well as sipping broths and lots of unsweetened fruit-flavored seltzer like Lacroix, bone broth, bulletproof coffee, [unintelligible [00:32:58] brood cacao. I was sipping at all throughout my fast because I thought if I had no sweeteners, or just that, it was okay. I always had to be drinking something to quell my hunger and it was a struggle to barely make it to 16 hours.

And on the weekends, I often couldn't even make it that far. I now know why. And on top of that, despite my supposed fasting and low carb, high fat and keto efforts, I lost zero weight and even gained a couple pounds.” Before we go on, do you want to comment on that at all, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that is so much like the way I was early on before I read The Obesity Code. I was the same exact way because we were all just caught up in the calories in, calories out mindset. And if I wasn't eating a breakfast biscuit, I was fasting. And so, yeah, and just like Jen said, it was so hard. It was so hard. It was a struggle. I was basically white knuckling it every single day, so I get it.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting because when I first started intermittent fasting, I was not clean fasting, and it wasn't hard.

Gin Stephens: Well, I wonder if it has to do with-- I mean, you also were not obese. You probably didn't have crazy insulin resistance and your insulin levels were probably lower in general. Just overall.

Melanie Avalon: I honestly have no idea.

Gin Stephens: Well, also you were very young. So, that's really important. I was in my 40s and obese, and I think that's a huge factor.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm not saying that to challenge the clean fast, because fast forward to now, I'm like, completely an advocate of it. I just find that really interesting. I was just thinking about the stuff she was drinking because I was thinking about what I was drinking, which was flavored teas and stevia and all of that stuff. The thing actually that is interesting, my timeline was-- I think I probably cleaned up my food. I went paleo. That's when I cleaned up the fast and it was just all so beneficial.

Gin Stephens: And see mine was the opposite. I cleaned up the fast which made my body just naturally cleaned up the food after cleaning up the fast.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting how that happens. So, I was low carb for quite a while and then I added intermittent fasting, and I was doing one meal a day, and I heard about paleo from Robb Wolf, who I just interviewed, friends. I already said that I think on the show, but I interviewed him. It was crazy. I cried, almost. But in any case, I heard about paleo. I literally remember the day I heard about it. Gin, did you ever have like your crazy diet friend who would do all the crazy diets with you?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay.

Gin Stephens: I did not. Nobody was as crazy as me. Nobody.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I did. Shout out to Ben MP. So, I remember we would always do all the things together. He actually did the one meal a day with me when we first did it. I remember he was like, “Have you heard of this thing called paleo? I'm thinking of trying it.” And that's when I looked it up. It's so interesting because, Gin, people think with the fast eating, they're like, “Oh, what difference can it make cleaning up the fast?” That was my literal first thought. I was like, “What difference can it make cleaning up my food? I'm already fasting. I'm already doing one meal a day. Not really going to make much of a difference.”

Gin Stephens: Huge difference.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's interesting how we have similar-- for me the food and you the fasting, similar experiences of that whole experience of not appreciating the difference that might make and then realizing and just wanting to tell all the people.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. That's really it. The fact that we're not trying to take away your delicious sipping broths just because we're mean. Or we're not suggesting you gravitate towards real food just because it's amazing how different you feel.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, if it didn't feel absolutely so much more amazing on the other side, we wouldn't be advocating it. And to the food point, you find when people start fasting, they start craving more natural foods. The same, I feel, if you clean up your food, you start craving those foods and they taste so much more delicious. Anyway, back to her question.

She says, “I started to clean fast this past spring, just plain filtered water with the occasional unsweetened plain green tea or plain black coffee and was blown away by how much easier IF was with the clean fast and how great I felt.” Oh, my goodness, we just said this. So, she said, “Before I just thought IF is a way to lose weight. But now, I'm a convert for life for all the benefits I now know about, thanks to this podcast.

I also finally dropped those last stubborn seven pounds and got to my goal weight that has been eluding me for nearly eight years now." Yay." I can now easily breeze well past 16 hours with a clean fast and I've naturally settled to fasting 20 to 22 hours or longer daily with one meal a day. I basically break my fast when I feel hungry, which almost always is at least 20 hours into the fast. I don't check my eating window. I just eat one meal a day to satiety, which typically naturally results in a three to five-hour eating window. I feel best when I eat in the early to mid-afternoon and finish eating by 5:00 or 6:00 PM because I don't sleep well if I'm full and I feel sluggish the next day if I've eaten too late the day before. Because of my changing work schedule, however, I do one to two longer fast weekly of around 40 to 44 hours each, and they are so easy, and I feel absolutely great when I do them.

These longer fasts are usually spaced two days apart. So, I guess it's like doing ADF part of the week with one meal a day the rest of the week. For example, I'll typically have Monday and Wednesdays as down days where I eat nothing because I'm at work all day, and Tuesday and Thursday will be my up days. Friday through Sunday, I do standard one meal a day after fasting around 20 to 22 hours with occasional shorter 18-hour fast depending on how I'm feeling that day. The issue is that my up days on Tuesdays and Thursdays are still one meal a day. Not because I'm purposely trying to be restrictive, that's just what is comfortable and feels natural for my body. But after listening to this podcast and hearing Gin talk about ADF and the importance of eating at least two, and possibly three meals on up days to maintain metabolic rate, I'm concerned that I'm doing damage to my metabolism.

As an aside, I didn't even know what ADF was until I listened to this podcast. So, I didn't know that what I was doing with my longer weekly fast was even a thing. After hearing Gin talk about the importance of the refeeding on the up days, I've tried to eat at least two meals and extend my window, but I just can't. Mentally, I'm there, it makes total sense to me. But physically, I just can't. Is this part of the appetite correction Gin often talks about? I get so satiated with my first meal and one meal a day in general that I feel completely full and satisfied for the rest of the day. I've tried eating a smaller first meal on my up day, so I can eat more later, but that doesn't help. And I end up eating even less during the day, then if I eat into full satiety to begin with. If I were to eat a second meal, I'd have to extend my window so long that it basically blends right into my bedtime or I'd even have to stay up later just to accommodate a second meal somewhat comfortably, but then I'd be uncomfortable at bedtime.

My most recent up day, I forced myself to eat a second meal. It was really small, and it truly felt like a chore and obligation the entire time. I felt physically unwell, overly full, had terrible sleep. I felt sluggish and bogged down and uncomfortably full, yet paradoxically hungry the entirety of the next day, it was awful.”

"So, again," I think this is coming to her question, “Is it the number and/or timing of the meals on the up days that matters most? Or is it the overall nutritional intake? I don't like to use the term 'calories.' Is it okay for me to just eat one big satisfying meal on my up day if the overall nutritional intake would be equivalent or close to the two smaller meals I would otherwise have to force myself to eat? I'm an omnivore and don't follow a popular diet though in general, I try to avoid heavily processed foods and eat lots of vegetables and relatively lower carb than the standard American diet, but it's not low carb.

Even before listening to this podcast and having ADF/5:2 on my radar, I naturally ate more on my up days than on my typical one-meal-a-day days, but it was still a one-meal-a-day pattern and still finishing by around 6:00 PM. I don't count calories. I don't track macros. I just eat to satiety. And on these up days after a 40 to 44-hour fast, sometimes after 48 hours, I just naturally eat more than I do on a standard one-meal-a-day day where I fasted for around 20 to 22 hours. Is that okay? Does that protect my metabolic rate? Or do I need to eat at least two distinct meals over an extended window?

The thought of grazing tiny snacks all day as another option sounds miserable. When I eat, I want to eat. Skipping my weekly 40-hour fast is also not an option because it's a necessity given my work schedule and work environment on those days. Honestly, I don't want to skip those longer fasts anyways because they make me feel great. Thank you so much, ladies. I've learned exponentially more about IF from you these past three months than I have the past three years trying to do this on my own. Happy fasting, Jen.”

And then she does say, “Unrelated, but I came across a review article on fasting, COVID, and the immune system you two might find interesting.” I remember there were some questions about that in the previous episode, and we'll put a link to it in the show notes. It's called Intermittent Fasting, a Possible Priming Tool for Host Defense Against Sars-Cov-2 Infection: Crosstalk Among Calorie Restriction, Autophagy, and Immune Response. So very exciting.

Gin Stephens: That one's come up a bunch in the fasting groups, by the way, people have shared it.

Melanie Avalon: What's been the general conversation around it?

Gin Stephens: Well, it's a theory. They're like, “We think this could be helpful.” That's basically spoiler alert. That's what the article says. “We think fasting is probably great. That's it.” It just has to do with how fasting strengthens the immune system. And so therefore, they think that it would be a helpful tool.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. We'll put links to that in the show notes. So back to Jen’s question. I know that was really long, but I feel like this might be something a lot of people-- do you find people experience this, Gin? They're doing an ADF-ish type thing and then on their up days, they're just not feeling that urge or that need to-- Well, I guess we should first address her question for the up day, does it have to be meals spread out throughout the day? Or can it still be in a one-meal-a-day pattern?

Gin Stephens: I feel so very strongly about this that I would recommend not having the longer fast at all if you cannot have a refeed. I would not do it. Especially if you're somebody like Gin, who's at her ideal weight because the whole point of doing a longer fast and protecting your metabolism through the longer fast-- of course, the up day is protective of metabolism, but also you need to be well fueled during the longer fast.

So, let's imagine that you're at your ideal weight, our bodies, especially women, we need a certain amount of body fat. I was looking it up the other day because somebody was talking about their level of body fat and it was really low to me, and I looked and it was really low, for a woman. We have a certain percentage that we should be just for fat reserves, which is more than men should have. And so, when you start getting into the athlete level of fat percentage, our body is going to start to freak out, especially if she's in her late 30s. I don't know if she ever plans to have children, I don't know. But we certainly as women in our fertile years do not want to get into the state where our bodies are like, “Oh, gosh, we are over-restricting.” And so, I think that would be the perfect storm of, for your body. I mean, the bad one, the bad perfect storm because you're doing these longer fasts, you're at a really good weight already, and you're not willing to do a sufficient refeed, and you want to stick to one meal a day. That sounds like a really bad scenario for your body. And I would not recommend that at all.

If you want to do a longer fast, then you're going to have to have a longer window the next day to fit in more food because think about it from your body's point of view, not a lot of fat reserves, fasting over 40 hours, sometimes up to 48 hours twice a week, and then the next day only eating one meal. So, that's not going to send the, “Hey, we're well-fueled," message to your body.” It's not, it just isn't.

So, you're going to have to figure out a way to send that message to your body, and saying that it's not possible to-- you said skipping my weekly 40-plus hour fast is not an option because it's a necessity given my work schedule. I don't think any work schedule is going to expect people to not eat. You may feel really great working in the fasting state, and I get that. You're going to have to figure out a way to fuel your body.

I would not recommend one meal a day after the longer fasts, especially for someone at their ideal weight.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really glad we included this question. I think that's a really good message to put out there. I bet a lot of people probably wish they had Jen's problem, but I agree with everything that you said.

Gin Stephens: So, you really want to fill your body well. And it's tricky because we hear that in the groups, people were like, “Well, I'm just not hungry. I don't want to force myself to eat because isn't that against everything you've said?” Yes, it really does sound to be against everything we've said, forcing yourself to eat. But the thing is, is that you need to give yourself a longer period of time to let your appetite wake back up because if you over-restrict and over-restrict and over-restrict, that is not good for your body long term.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so it sounds like, Jen, your two potential options here are continuing to do your ADF but just trying to still work to find a way to have those adequate refeeding days, or just do a one-meal-a-day pattern, every day.

It reminded me of something else tangential, but related that I'd like to touch on, if I may because she was talking about how the difference between two meals versus one meal at once. I'm reading right now, Siim Land is coming out with a new book. I've had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The first episode I had him on was all about autophagy actually. So, if you'd like to learn all about that, definitely check that out. But his new book is called Stronger By Stress. Incredible. It's incredible. Well, knowing Siim Land, it's very, very intense and long and lots of information, but he does a really, really good job of providing a very thorough overview of-- The book is about the different ways that we can experience hormetic stress to make us stronger.

So, things like fasting, cold exposure, sauna, plant toxins, as well as healthy emotional stress. So, reframing our mindset and our perspective and he talks about things like stoicism, and it's really a valuable resource. But the point of this was is, we get a lot of questions on this show about people who are exercising and wanting to build muscle, and are concerned that they can't build adequate muscle with intermittent fasting. And he actually talks about that a lot and I found it really valuable because I learned a lot. So, people think with like protein, for example, that we can only-- we're often told that we need to eat protein constantly throughout the day to support muscle, that's been the general message. But what we know is that as long as you eat an adequate amount of protein within 24 hours of catabolism, so muscle breakdown, you can have adequate muscle build-up. The way this ties into the one versus two is, however, we have a gene called mTOR and it's what stimulates that growth state and that recovery state so actually when we're talking about this refeeding day, that's really important, part of that is evolving into a simulation, which is telling the body to grow and recover and build itself up again.

The way it works though, it's really interesting. When you eat a meal, especially high in protein, it stimulates mTOR, but it caps out. So, if you have a meal with decent amount of protein, you will stimulate up to a certain amount of mTOR expression. If you keep eating protein in that same meal, it's not like you stimulate mTOR more, it's kind of just it's on, which is totally fine, and you can still get all the protein you need but if you want to specifically build muscle and practice intermittent fasting, you can. But you probably need to have a longer window with two or even three separate meals with protein because when you do that, you'll stimulate mTOR multiple times for the muscle growth, if that makes sense. I just thought that was actually really, really valuable. And it just sparked my memory because you're talking about two versus one meal.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, there's definitely a difference.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so this is just for people who are like bodybuilders. If you want to have muscle growth and do intermittent fasting, you probably want to have a longer window with two or three meals that are stimulating mTOR rather than having it all in one meal.

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Gin Stephens: All right, so we have a question from Lauren. And it says, “Hi ladies, I love your podcast. I've been clean fasting since May 8, and I'm down 20 pounds.” Wow, that is a lot in such a short time. That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, by the way, her subject is another toothpaste question.

Gin Stephens: Another toothpaste question. All right. Yeah, today on the Ask a Moderator in the Delay, Don't Deny group, there were two toothpaste questions one after the other. I wanted to say, “Look up there.” [laughs] Scroll up. All right, so trust me, I've seen them all. She says, “I started my fitness journey in 2014. I've never seen results like I am seeing with IF. In respect to clean fasting, I would like to stop using Colgate toothpaste. I have two questions. I have heard on the podcast that just thinking about food or having anything including toothpaste in your mouth could spike insulin levels, especially if it's anything sweet tasting. Now, this might be weird, but I'm a huge salty snack person. I used plain baking soda and water to brush my teeth for the first time and my brain said, ‘Oh, this is something salty.’ Do you think I'm spiking my insulin levels because my body now thinks I'm eating something salty?”

If I could just pop right in and answer that one, our brain doesn't respond to salt or mineral tastes the same way it does to something sweet. So, the answer would be no. All right.

“I did feel hungry right after this, but I was also just about to break my fast regardless, so it was hard to tell. Second question, I find that the baking soda a little too bland, not feeling refreshed. Is adding one to two drops of organic peppermint oil into my homemade toothpaste okay? Or do you think this is not respecting a clean fast?

Bottom line. If my salty tooth is maybe spiking insulin and the peppermint oil is maybe questionable, is it even worth using homemade toothpaste or should I just use regular old Colgate? So far, IF has been effortless. Not sure why I'm overthinking this one so much. Hope this email wasn't too long and hope to hear from you both soon. Love the podcast. Thanks for all your support.”

Melanie Avalon: Well, first of all, I think it's funny she said she hopes it wasn't too long. We just read a novel. So, a few different questions in here, but Gin already answered the salt one. And if you think about it, oftentimes people doing fasting or particularly ketogenic diets with fasting, it's often very much encouraged that they might need electrolytes during the fast which is often a salty thing. So, don't have to worry about the salt.

This is just theorizing and talking. If some reason, a person does-- she says she feels it made her hungry. What are your thoughts on that?

Gin Stephens: I also have learned that what people say made me “hungry.” A lot of people have a lot of definitions for what they mean by made me hungry. A stomach growl, for example. So, it's hard to answer. A stomach growl is not technically hunger. That's a mechanical action. My stomach just growled, I think, right after I said that. My stomach growled. Does it mean I'm hungry? No.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. In any case, short answers with salt, it's not a problem. But it's for adding one to two drops of organic peppermint oil, I think that's completely fine. We've talked about peppermint before on this podcast and I always with peppermint have found it-- I use homemade peppermint breath spray every day, I find it kills my appetite. I've read studies where it reduces appetite, for you, but does it make you hungry?

Gin Stephens: No, it's fine for me. My brain does not associate it with a timed release of insulin. I use peppermint Burt's Bees all day long. So, that might be why my brain does not see it as, “Oop, calories are coming. We need insulin.” But I know people, even some of the moderators of our Facebook groups are like, “Yeah, I cannot do the vial drops or the peppermint oil.” It makes them shaky and so that's the sign that they've had an insulin response. That's why I consider peppermint oil to be in the gray area, as far as that goes.

Melanie Avalon: So, it's a case really of do you see how you respond to it? I will say just a little quick toothpaste PSA. Fun fact that might blow your mind if you didn't know it. Our teeth are actually-- I think, they're the only part of our body, that might not be exactly true, but I'm pretty sure they're the only, if not the only part of our body that in order to get their nutrition requires direct contact. So, you know how the rest of our body nutrients are delivered, they're processed by the body and they're delivered through the bloodstream and that's how it all goes down? That includes our bones. Our teeth, nothing gets delivered to the teeth through any bloodstream or pathway or highway. So, it's what you've literally directly put on your teeth. So, you want to make sure that your toothpaste in particular is something that is rich and mineralizing ingredients, so that it will support the health of your teeth. Isn't that so interesting?

Gin Stephens: That is interesting.

Melanie Avalon: That's like a fun fact that stuck with me for life. I was like, “Wow.” So, I guess that means that I wonder if the implications of that maybe that might mean that if you can eat a super high calcium teeth-supportive diet, but if you just shoveled it directly into your gut without going through your mouth your teeth might not actually be nourished from it, so fascinating.

Gin Stephens: I talk about this in Fast. Feast. Repeat. Lauren, if you have that book, it is on page 55, so you can turn there and look. I actually want you to use whatever toothpaste you want. Whatever it is, I don't want you to overthink the toothpaste or your morning dental routine and feel like you have to use baking soda with the salty flavor because here's why. We have a cephalic phase insulin response. Let's say your toothpaste-- if your brain did say, “Ooh, here's this sweetness coming in.” It happens within like two minutes, and then the insulin peaks at four minutes and returns to baseline between 8 to 10 minutes. So, that's going to be a really small spike. It's not going to be something that is going to last for hours. That's just something important to know. You brush your teeth, you go about your day, I would not recommend brushing your teeth every 10 minutes because that's going to be up and up and up and up. That's also why I think of gum and sodas and things like that is different because you don't just chew gum and then move about your day. It's something that continues and goes on and on and on. And back when I was a gum chewer, I was popping piece after piece after piece. So, it was pretty much continual. With your toothpaste, you're not continually doing it.

So, duration is important. I really encourage people to not stress too much about toothpaste. Use the kind that fits in with your philosophies, and if that's Colgate, then use Colgate. If that's the one you'd like to use, use it. If you want to make a homemade toothpaste with baking soda and peppermint oil? I don't know if that's what a dentist would recommend or not, I'm not really sure what they think about brushing with just baking soda. So, I'm not going to say to do that, because they might be like, “Oh, no, please don't do that.” I don't really know. Ask your dentist.

Melanie Avalon: To that point, the homemade one.

Gin Stephens: That might be a really bad idea. I just don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm a fan of homemade, but like I said, with the direct contact, you would probably want it to include things like their calcium powders and things like that, so that you're still getting that mineralization benefits. And I'm glad you brought up the insulin phase response. I know we've talked about that before on this show, but that was personally a big epiphany moment for me, what Gin just mentioned. Because basically, your pancreas has a little bit of insulin armed and ready to go. It's like a little bit, and it's what's released when you first taste something. It's what Gin just said. When you continue to eat and bring it in, then the pancreas once it loses that first little bit that it has primed and ready, it starts creating more, and that's what we don't want to happen, which would happen with eating or like Gin said, if you're continually having that flavor still coming in.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Now, I will say this also, if you notice every day after you brush your teeth, you get shaky like your blood sugar has crashed, maybe try a different brand or a different flavor. Switch from peppermint to a different-- I'm not going to say there's no time that toothpaste might be a problem for somebody. The issue is, if it makes you feel shaky, like your blood sugar is crashing, then you can experiment with different options. That's the only time I want you to worry about it.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode176. Feel like we talked a lot about a lot of stuff on this show. So, definitely check that out for all of the links to everything.

You can submit your own questions to the show. Just directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. You can follow me, I'm @melanieavalon. You can follow Gin, she's @ginstephens. And I think that's it, I guess. Anything else from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, talk to you next week. Bye.

Gin Stephens: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcast, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox.

See you next week.