Episode 244: Low Fat Diet Success, Protein & Fruit, Being Discouraged, Gut Microbiome, Prebiotics, Probiotics, Fiber, And More!

Intermittent Fasting


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Dec 19

Welcome to Episode 244 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!!

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 JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 


LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Clean(ish): Eat (Mostly) Clean, Live (Mainly) Clean, and Unlock Your Body's Natural Ability to Self-Clean

Stay Up To Date With All The News About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase Or Head Straight Over To Avalonx.us To Place Your Order Now!

for A Limited time save 15% on your delay, don't deny community membership with the promo code CLEANISH at ginstephens.com/community!

FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Josh - Suggestions For My Wife?

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A: Erin - Microbiome


Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 244 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free electrolytes that are clean fast approved. Yep, free electrolytes with no additives, no fillers, clean fast approved, here's the details. So, as you guys know, I am a huge fan of Robb Wolf. He's basically my hero in life. He wrote The Paleo Solution, and he's the reason that I'm doing what I do today. He co-founded a company called LMNT. Because he realized just how important the role of electrolytes are in our health. And not just our health, but our performance, our wellbeing, and so much more. In fact, a lot of times, people struggle with issues on low-carb diets, keto, or fasting. They might be fatigued or have headaches, muscle cramps, basically a decline in mental and physical performance. That's because electrolytes are key for your body's hormonal and cellular function. And when we fast or do low-carb diets, they can often get out of whack. Most electrolyte supplements on the market are full of crazy additives, sweeteners, extra calories, and toxic ingredients that you just don't need in your body. That's where LMNT comes in. 

These supplements are formulated to give your body the exact electrolyte balance that you need including sodium, magnesium, and potassium because electrolytes are actually charged minerals that conduct electricity to power your nervous system. So, not only are they regulating your hydration status, they're actually determining how your cells conduct energy. If you want to learn all about the science of electrolytes as well as a lot of commonly asked questions like, can you just drink to thirst, is low sodium or high sodium dangerous, how should you supplement with electrolytes based on your diet and physical performance? Definitely, check out the interview I did with Robb Wolf on this podcast. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. I cannot tell you how many times I get listener feedback about people who have tried LMNT and told me that it basically was the thing that felt like it turned their body back on. It's honestly, truly incredible. And it's not just you guys, LMNT is actually the exclusive hydration partner to Team USA weightlifting, also dozens of NFL, NBA, and NHL teams. Use and recommend LMNT Navy SEALs, FBI Sniper teams, Marines, a lot of tech leaders, it is basically the supplement to get when it comes to electrolytes.  

Because LMNT hears so many amazing stories from customers every single day and often hear about how people get samples and then just get turned on and then want to tell all of their friends, LMNT decided to have an amazing VIP offer for our community. Yes, in the spirit of the holidays, LMNT is launching their saltiest offer ever for a limited time. Our community will be able to claim a free LMNT sampler pack. It only covers the cost of shipping. That's $5 for US customers. That's right. You'll get eight packets of LMNT, eight different flavors, the offer is limited one time per customer. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's d-r-i-n-k-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IF p-o-d-c-a-s-t. When you get that sampler pack by the way, the raw unflavored one is the one that is clean fast approved. All the other ones will be for your eating window. Again, to get your free LMNT sampler pack, just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. And we'll put all this information as well as that link to Robb Wolf's episode in the show notes. And one more thing before we jump in.  

Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show. 

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome, this is episode number 244 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great. How about you?  

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I have so many things.  

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I've just rolling along waiting for Clean(ish) to come out. On the date that we're recording this, we are less than a month away and on the day it comes out, we're less than a month away. So, if people have not preordered Clean(ish) yet, pretty soon, you'll just have to real order it because [giggles] it comes out January 4th. So, go ahead and preorder it now. You're going to want to have it.  

Melanie Avalon: So, when this comes out, it'll be just a few days before Christmas, which is very exciting. So, people can preorder almost order Clean(ish). I will be having a sale-- holiday sale right now, I think, in theory on my serrapeptase. And I think we're literally locking down the details right now. But I think we're going to do, if you were on the list, so, get on my email list. Hopefully, we can do this some sort of like refer a friend thing where if you refer the serrapeptase to a friend, you get a code, or a credit, or discount. Hopefully, that'll be in the works.  

Gin Stephens: It's just figuring out logistics for that?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But either way, there'll be a sale. So, that will all be at avalonx.us 

Gin Stephens: Very cool. I'm actually running a Clean(ish) special for my DDD community. Well, if you want to join the Delay, Don't Deny community, we're having a Clean(ish) book study that starts on January 5th. So, with the promo code CLEANISH, you can save 15% on your Delay, Don't Deny community membership if you go to ginstephens.com/community. And we figured out the math of it. If you join with the promo code, CLEANISH which is 15% off a yearly membership, it costs less than $1 a week for a year. I mean, that is like, I don't know, that's just like buy different brand of butter one week and you've saved-- I don't know. [laughs] 

You know, it's a very, very small amount and you get the community, and we're doing the Clean(ish) book study which is included. So, ginstephens.com/community, promo code CLEANISH. That's just going to be good until we start the book study. So, get on it. It's very exciting. I'm loving the new community, by the way, since we moved it. It is so good like it works and I got an email today from the company. They just got a $25 million investment from some kind of investor. So, their goal is to be the best community platform out there and I'm very excited that we're on it. That's a big deal.  

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting.  

Gin Stephens: I know.  

Melanie Avalon: So many exciting things coming.  

Gin Stephens: So, people are still loving your serrapeptase, then? 

Melanie Avalon: As of this recording, people are just now starting to get it, so that the pictures are flooding in with people taking it, but it's really exciting. Yeah, people have already reported back. Some people have said that they've noticed differences already, and everybody is saying that they're not having any GI issues because serrapeptase is like the one thing that some people react to. And now, since, people are not reacting to mine, I really think it's probably the enteric coatings. Yeah, I don't know that it was necessarily the serrapeptase as much as serrapeptase requires special coatings normally to be absorbed. So, I think people might have been having issues with that aspect. But mine, we'd like it's good. [giggles] So, I'm so excited. We're developing my second supplement. I'm not going to say what it is, but I'm trying to decide which form to do, and I've been doing a lot of research, and I think, it's going to be surprising the conclusion I reach, so listeners can stay tuned.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I'll be so curious to hear.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes. Can I share a Christmas related story?  

Gin Stephens: No. [laughs] I'm just kidding. Of course, you can. Please, I love Christmas. I'm sitting here with my Christmas coffee mug with empty in it. I've got my little Christmas tree. So, yes.  

Melanie Avalon: For listeners. What is empty for those who are not familiar?  

Gin Stephens: It's hot water in a mug?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, two things, I went and picked out a Christmas tree with my dad, and I posted this on Instagram, but there was the most attractive Christmas tree man there like the man in charge of the Christmas trees, who like saws it and stuff. Oh, my goodness. And so, I posted about this through the video. And so, now, whenever I post anything, people ask about, am I going for Whole Foods guy or Christmas tree guy? My epiphany that I had-- I had this dumb blonde moment last night. Like this is definition dumb blonde, I can't even. So, when we were picking out the Christmas trees, I was thinking, "Hmm, people pick out smaller Christmas trees now." I was like, when I was little people picked-- Like the trees were bigger when I was little. I literally was thinking this seriously. And then, last night, I was decorating my Christmas tree with the lights, and I realized the reason I thought all the trees were smaller was because when I was little they looked bigger. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, well, yeah, that's true. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Literally, I felt like-- I probably for a week, I was like, "This is-- It's so weird." When I was little, people were buying bigger trees. But I guess with like COVID and--  

Gin Stephens: Well, this is how you'll really know that's true. If you ever go back to your elementary school-- You'll go back to your elementary school and everything looks so different because you thought it was all giant, now it looks small? Yeah. That's a really good indication of that. But you're right. If you ever look at how children draw adults, they draw them with like giant legs like little kids. If they draw like a little family, the adults tend to have really long legs that are way out of proportion to the rest of their body. But imagine you're a tiny child, you see mostly leg. See, it is fun having an elementary teacher in your podcast. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I frame some pictures that my niece-- my niece and nephew drew. And I'm looking at them. Yeah, they do have very long legs.  

Gin Stephens: I know. But that is because those kids are little and they look up and your legs look like they go on forever. It's just the proportion is wrong.  

Melanie Avalon: Anyway, that's so funny. It was when I was decorating the top of the tree last night and I was like, "Oh, this was probably the size of the tree." When I was little, it probably wasn't. So, that was a moment. One more thing I just want to share really briefly, I plugged this last time, so, I'm currently creating my epic gift guide email lists. So, hopefully, people got that. So, that's actually on, oh, I didn't mention the email list earlier, so two email lists from people to get on. If they want information about the serrapeptase, go to melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase, S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. Now, list will also have information about the new supplement that I'm creating. But if you want my general updates like my Biohacking Christmas guide list that I'm working on right now, that's at melanieavalon.com/emaillist. In any case, I'm writing it right now and I'm putting all the things that are great for gifts, and I want to tell you, I mentioned it last time, Gin. ReMarkable. Do you know about reMarkable?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. You told me about that. Yeah. Well, I think we talked about it last time.  

Melanie Avalon: But not on the show.  

Gin Stephens: I thought, we did. Because was it off the air?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I said, I had to tease it for listeners.  

Gin Stephens: That's right and then he told me. Okay.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes.  

Gin Stephens: Because I was like, "I swear to God, you told me that," but-- [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I did. Okay. You know when you get something and every time you use it, you're like, "Wow," Like, "Wow. this is changing my life." And then you're like, "How was I living without this?"  

Gin Stephens: Does it save the notes?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, it's like-- kind of like an iPad, but way skinnier. You write with this pen thing. It feels more like writing on paper. That's how they market it. So, it doesn't really feel like a screen. It doesn't feel like paper, but it feels good. You can pick if you're-- Oh, so many options like a pen, a pencil, a ballpoint pen, a marker, and depending on what you're using. It feels like you're using that thing. So, if it's a pencil, it will look like pencil lead. If you go harder, it makes it darker compared to a pen where it pretty much always looks the same. You can make different notebooks or sheets of notes, and you write your notes, you just click convert to text, and you email it to yourself, and you have everything typed up. I can't believe I was-- I mean, this is saving me hours.  

Gin Stephens: Does it have to convert to text because I like things that look like handwriting?  

Melanie Avalon: No.  

Gin Stephens: Because I would like to save handwritten notes because that just for me, that's how I remember things better. Tactile, because-- For example, I have a big notepad next-- on my desk, next to my computer, when I'm talking to somebody or doing something, I write stuff down. So, it's like all the stuff written down but it's like random stuff. Like, if you flip back, it's just a random, but it would be nice to have all that random stored somewhere. Because I'll be like, "I know. I wrote that on my notepad." But yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's actually even easier because so it automatically syncs, I think, with your eye clap. You can get it to sync with your computer. So, if you don't convert it to text, that's just automatically synced. So, I think, it is a drive on your computer.  

Gin Stephens: But it looks like, you see it, it's written on paper while you're writing it. It feels and looks like you're writing on paper, and then it uploads it automatically. That is definitely something for me to play with. I would probably like that. 

Melanie Avalon: And I was super impressed. I was playing with it at Thanksgiving and my mom started writing on it, and she was doing cursive, and I was like, "Oh, this is not going to figure out cursive." It figured it out perfectly when we converted it. Literally, listeners, my pattern of prepping for my other show, my Biohacking Podcast, every night for about three hours I read a book that I'm prepping and I take handwritten notes, and then the next day, I would retype them. So, now, every time I use it, I'm like, "I can't believe I was retyping this every day."  

Gin Stephens: Now, I will tell you something from a teacher point of view. Retyping it--  

Melanie Avalon: You are going to say you learn it more.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. [laughs] Like for me, what I was-- you know, if I really wouldn't, that would be like a way I would study is rewriting anyway. But if you don't need that extra step, then--  

Melanie Avalon: When I was retyping it, it was pretty mindless. Like I would watch stuff and I wouldn't really pay attention. It's when I reorganize the retyped information that I learn it.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. So, you're not using the typing as a learning. Okay.  

Melanie Avalon: No. Essentially, rewrite what I retyped. And that's when I--  

Gin Stephens: Because that rewriting part actually gets it into your brain better rather than just rereading your notes actually rewriting it, because it's going in your brain differently. Your processing it more. The more you process it, the more you're going to remember it.  

Melanie Avalon: It's when I reorganize the information that I really learn it.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's also why the teachers now that just write up notes and hand them out to the kids like, "Here are your notes that I wrote for you to have," they are missing the important step of the children taking notes and processing it. They are impacting learning. Anyway, I could talk about that a lot. [laughs] Taking the notes, and I also really believe writing them by hand is better than typing them as far as memory. That tactile writing versus click, click, click. It just gets it in there differently.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, probably. A fellow podcaster reached out to me and they were like, "Can you tell me your process? How many hours do you spend on each show?" I had never thought about that. Like, how many hours do I spend prepping? I really don't know, but I told them, I think, it's probably between like 10 and 50 hours or 40. I don't know. But now that I have reMarkable-- [laughs] take it down. I don't have a code. I've been begging them. I'm like, "Please give me a discount code." They said, "They might in the future." So, I don't know. If you guys get it, tell them I sent you. So, I'm really trying to convince them to give me.  

Gin Stephens: So, they'll be like, "Yeah, I'd to give you a code."  

Melanie Avalon: I want them to know that like, literally, I want everybody to have this and I want them to know how much I am sharing them. So, they'll maybe in the future, give me a code. 

Gin Stephens: Because we love it or you love it. I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds like I would love it. But that's the thing about the things we share. It's stuff we love and a lot of the things for example that I promote on Intermittent Fasting Stories that have ads for, it's because I've said to my ad team, "I would like to have like for example Green Chef because I use them. Please, get me Green Chef." And then, they did. Because I'm like, I really, really love them. Like, Daily Harvest. I'm like, "Please get me Daily Harvest," and then, they figured out how to. Because I was already using it and like for you, reMarkable, give me a code. [laughs] Because it's stuff we love, and we talk about it, and it feels better to promote something we love. I will never promote something I don't truly love.  

Melanie Avalon: Me neither. It's pretty much all I do. Just tell people what I love. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's really what we do. It's so much fun. I used to tell people what I loved all the time just as a random person. My elementary school is where it would be, you are like doing something about. But I'm like, "Ooh, let me tell you what I love. Let me tell you the best dry erase markers." And they were trying to be like, "Wow, these are better. We are mavens according to--"  

Melanie Avalon: So, maybe that's why we're podcasters.  

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah, according to, what's his name? Malcolm Gladwell, 'we are mavens.'  

Melanie Avalon: Interestingly, a really quick tangent. I just listened to an interview on Peter Attia with some guy who wrote a book, there's some book about like geneticism, and-- The Genetics of Talent 

Gin Stephens: I mean, is it Malcolm Gladwell? Because he has a book about Talent, but it's not about necessarily genetics.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, no, this guy was deconstructing the 10,000 hours.  

Gin Stephens: Well, Malcolm Gladwell does talk about the 10,000 hours in his book.  

Melanie Avalon: Right. This guy was deconstructing the 10,000 hours.  

Gin Stephens: Like the opposite of that?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: I'm sure that I haven't seen that one. Yeah, Malcolm Gladwell is who actually introduced me to the idea of there being 10,000 hours. If you practice something for 10,000 hours, you will be a master of it. So, this guy's saying, no?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, Peter Attia interviewed David Epstein. The book they were talking about was The Sports Gene: Inside the Science of Extraordinary Athletic Performance. I've read a lot of Malcolm Gladwell stuff, and I'd read the 10,000 hours, and according to David Epstein, those studies are all incorrect, like, they were just wrong. He basically makes the case that it's not 10,000 hours, and it's genetic.  

Gin Stephens: I think that 10,000 hours might be an overly simple way of looking at it because for example, I could practice gymnastics for 10,000 hours and I would not be able to go to the Olympics. I would never be a great gymnast. I don't have the right genetics like you're saying. But if you do, like for example, Will-- my son, Will is an amazingly gifted trombone player, who wasn't going to do music when he went to Davidson Fine Arts, we'd already signed up for something else, and then we were picking Calla, we walked in the music room to pick up Cal, and they had like, the new students were looking at the equipment. Will picked up a trumpet, never had held a brass instrument before. It's really hard to make a sound on the mouthpiece of a trumpet and a trombone. I don't know if you've ever tried.  

Melanie Avalon: I think I tried once in middle school and I was like, "This is not for me." Oh, yeah, that's what it was. It's like, when you do the band class or like to see if you actually want to do band and you're like, "Nope." Oh, I was like, "No." [giggles]  

Gin Stephens: Well, Will picked it up, had never touched one, held it to his lips, and made a beautiful sound the first time. And the girl that we were actually picking up said, "Mr. Kennedy, come listen to this." I thought, she was a student. Will played it for Mr. Kennedy, and the guys like, "Sign up for band." [laughs] So, we went and switched everything, and we got to the-- I mean, Will was first year All-State Band. He also put in the hours. I really do think you have to have a combination of talent and the practice. I think, you can't do without both, right?  

Melanie Avalon: I think so. They were talking about that a lot in the interview. I'll put a link to in the show notes. It was David Epstein on Peter Attia. The Peter Attia episode was called How a range of experience leads to better performance in a highly specialized world? which is about one of David Epstein's other books. They were talking about that. Like the nuances and complexities of talent versus--  

Gin Stephens: Practice.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. You got to have a little bit of both. Like I said, there is no way-- you know, my mom was a dance teacher. I do not have a ballet body. My legs are not right, I'm not limber. I can get more limber. I know I could increase my-- But I'm never going to have the lines, the long legs. I'm not built that way. So, I could practice for 10 million hours. [laughs] I wasn't going to be a ballerina. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly.  

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Melanie Avalon: So, a lot of listeners will DM me on Instagram, and ask questions, and also on my Facebook group, IF Biohackers which everybody should join, and I try to answer everybody that I can, and this one listener reached out to me, we were first talking because she was playing around with her ZOE, the ZOE program that Gin and I've both done, which is where you eat muffins at certain macronutrients, and you were a CGM, and you see how your body processes carbs and fat, and you see about your gut microbiome. So, in any case, she had gotten back her ZOE results. Oh, and she said, I could say her name. I think she wanted me to say her name. Her name was Tracy.  

Gin Stephens: Hello, Tracy.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. And so, she has gotten back her ZOE results and her blood sugar was good. It was 74 but her fat control was 57, which was not so good. She'd been fasting for 20 hours, and she'd been doing keto, and she was talking to me because she was saying that, she's never satisfied and she's not losing weight, and that she was eating beef, fish, low carb, always under 40 grams in medium fat, and then etc. And so, I told her, I was like, "Have you tried upping your protein and have you possibly tried high protein, high carb, low fat," which I would have suggested anyways? But especially with her ZOE results, which were showing that she was good with carbs, not so good with fat, and I just thought this was such an interesting conversation, and I wanted to share it because of her experience, because people are so scared often to-- if they've been doing low carb to switch to high carb, low fat. They're just convinced they're going to gain weight. I'm just like I always have to explain that, if you're doing fasting and you're doing high carb, low fat and actually low fat and especially if you have a smaller eating window, which you know, she was doing a four-hour eating window, at the very least, it's unlikely you're going to gain weight, even if you gain like water weight.  

Gin Stephens: Like four pounds. Right. For me, the low carb effect was four pounds, I would start a low-carb diet, I would immediately drop four pounds and then I never lost another pound again ever no longer matter how long I did it. And then, the minute I introduced carbs again, backup four pounds. So, my glycogen storage water weight issue is four pounds. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. And the thing is, so, besides that four pounds it's unlikely you're going to actually gain weight if you're actually doing low fat. Because protein does not easily become fat, carbs actually don't easily become fat, and then if you're fasting everyday as well, it's unlikely. So, you can at least know that. Like at the very least, I'm probably not going to gain weight which is what most people's fear is. So, I was asking her about it, she said, "I haven't tried high carb, low fat. I'm kind of nervous. I usually stay under 40 grams of carbs and fat is usually 70 to 80 grams." 

I encouraged her more to try it, and she said, "I'm going to try. I'm nervous, but I'm definitely going to try. I appreciate you." And then, I explained a little bit what I just said to you. So, the first day she reported back, she said, "Yesterday, I had all protein with raspberries, and strawberries, and blueberries, I woke up feeling really good, I checked my ketones and my blood, and my ketones were 0.6, and my blood was 71." So, her blood sugar was 71, and she's still high ketones. So, she was very surprised and she said like, "How low is too low for fat? Not really eating anything with fat and other than my protein, do you think that's okay? I almost reached for the nuts but that's a slippery slope." And I told her that, if you're eating animal protein at least you're probably getting fat in there. So, I told her not to stress about the fat issue, especially, because she was eating chicken breast, 4% beef, and fish. And when-- then I told her that nuts, nuts, yes, nuts can be a slippery slope, and those would be adding some fat.  

So, then she kept doing it, and then she reported back again a few days later, and she said, "This is very interesting. I am on--" Oh, no. She says it was day two. She said, "I'm on day two with protein and fruit. I have more energy after fasting 20 or 21 hours than I've ever had before. My ketones are higher within the last two days than they have been in the last couple of weeks. The only thing is, I don't know how long I can keep eating the fruit and protein. But for now, I'm just going to enjoy it and I'm down a pound. It's probably all water, though."  

Gin Stephens: Well, I wouldn't say so, especially, if she's introduced more carbs. If she's down a pound and has reintroduced carbs that would not be water weight. That would be fat loss in my mind.  

Melanie Avalon: So, then she said-- the next day, she said, "Oh, my gosh, I'm down another pound, what?" And then, she reported back the next day, she said, "I'm so happy about this new way of eating. I'm actually even eating dates and I feel amazing, low fat for the win, I appreciate you." So, I didn't share that to say everybody needs to do low fat. I just found it so inspiring for people who maybe fasting, maybe doing one of the approaches, possibly low carb or keto. And if it's not working, it's okay to try something else and it might work.  

Gin Stephens: Here's what stands out to me. She followed the ZOE recommendations. See, if you read the science written by somebody who loves low carb or keto, they tell you all the reasons why it's how everyone should eat, and it's very convincing, and then you're like, "I'm going to do that," and then, like her, you're like, "You know what? I don't feel satisfied. I'm not really liking this. It's doesn't feel right." Well, her ZOE shows why. She has great blood sugar control, not as great fat control. So, she flip-flopped it, matched her ZOE recommendations. They're not just giving everybody the same ZOE recommendations, right? We're all getting personalized ones. She started eating based on that and she felt better.  

Now, I don't know that she has to just stick to fruit and protein. I would like to see her add in some other carbs. They give you lists, and scores, and dig into their app, and look into your score. You make-- craft a meal that has a high score using their app. That's why it's there. Don't feel scared. She's scared. We're scared to change our diet, right? If you feel like one way is like "best." She had gotten in her mind, "I got to be doing this low carb. That's what my body wants and needs." But number one, she wasn't satisfied. I was never satisfied on low carb. When she switched to something that fit her body better, she was satisfied and losing weight. Love it. 

Melanie Avalon: And I saw this exact same thing. I've seen it with a lot of people but there's another girl that follows me on Instagram. She was doing carnivore for the longest time. We were having a dialogue about, how I do lean protein and fruit. She was super, super nervous to try. But then, she finally did and it's just funny because it's always the exact same sentiments. It was the same thing that this girl said. She was saying like, "I have so much energy all of a sudden, like I'm full, I just feel better." I know you were saying like adding in other different types of carbs, but I do think there is a subset of people that do really well on a fruit and protein type approach. 

Gin Stephens: But you'll never know if you're going to do better with other ones unless you try. Just because you're doing well on fruit and protein, it doesn't mean you're not going to do-- I mean, keep in mind. The ZOE is also been looking at your gut microbiome because they're not just blindly making recommendations. It's based on your control and your gut microbiome. So, you can trust that they've got some scientifically based data from you that they're making these recommendations on. That's all I'm saying. Maybe not everyone's going to be great with the same things like corn, I don't know. But if it doesn't work for your gut, but that doesn't mean that it won't work for someone else's. 

Melanie Avalon: We know what's interesting about the ZOE thing because that was a really good point about how Tracy switch to what matched her ZOE. But what's interesting is that, my ZOE, I'm good with fat and not good with carbs, but what I do is pretty much high carb, low fat with fasting and that still does work for me. So, I think there's something to even if you're not good at processing carbs, I think, if one is going to process carbs and they're not good at processing carbs doing it in a lower fat context, it can be key for a lot of people.  

Gin Stephens: Well, see now for me, I'm going to just say, maybe, it's because you always have it with protein. If I have high carb, low fat in isolation, I feel awful.  

Melanie Avalon: Without protein or with protein?  

Gin Stephens: Or, without protein or fat. I really eat and I got to have some fat. 

Melanie Avalon: Without protein, I would be starving.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. If I don't have enough-- I feel better with mixed meals, honestly. I'm more likely to have-- and not all carbs are the same but as we know with bio-individuality, but certain-- if I just have really low fat, if I just ate certain fruits by themselves, if I just ate pineapple for example, I don't think I'd feel good.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I can't eat fruit by itself. I would be miserable. It has to be with a protein. The [unintelligible [00:36:22] people, which is basically where that idea really exists a lot, that high protein, high fruit, they like the fruit because it mitigates some of the stress response of eating just protein. One thing I love about ZOE though I'm very, very impressed with-- So, when you do it, you actually have a call with one of the people there. I have been sending my contact there. She's not special not special for me because I work with ZOE, this is the contact through just doing the ZOE program. I've been asking her so many questions about different foods in the app, and how they relate to certain scores, and I'm very impressed. She has checked on every single question that I've asked. Sometimes, it takes her over a week because she's asking the science team, but she always gets back to me. It's very, very impressive. [unintelligible [00:37:10]. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I'm impressed with them just in general. Oh, we are. Actually, I'm going to be having a webinar with Tim Spector in my community in January. I'm so excited. It's going to be just for people who are in the DDD community. They'll be able to join like-- 500 people will be able to join the Zoom call live, and then it'll be play but it'll only be in the community. But I've never actually talked to him person to person. So, I'm excited. You have, you've talked to him. He wrote the foreword for Clean(ish), which is thrilling because I love him. Anyway, so, I'm going to have face to face webinar with him for my community.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, congratulations on that by the way. It's so exciting.  

Gin Stephens: I know.  

Melanie Avalon: The foreword.  

Gin Stephens: I know. It really is. I'm just really grateful to have that connection with him because I've been a fan of his, before I ever wrote my first book or appeared on my first podcast. I was just a person and I read The Diet Myth and it blew my mind. And it really informed me, I learned so much. 

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I'm going to be a perpetual fan girl my entire life. I interact with these people, I'm just so excited. It's just very surreal, even though, I've had hundreds of guests.  

Gin Stephens: Well, we don't take it for granted, right? We know that they are special people and we're grateful for the opportunity to be able to talk to them.  

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting.  

Gin Stephens: And everyone's so nice. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know, I know, I know. I think on Friday I'm getting together with hopefully knock-on wood. Dr. Zielinski, who wrote that Essential Oil book. I didn't realize he lives in Atlanta. So, I'm getting together with him and his wife for dinner. I'm so excited.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I love that. It's so fun.  

Melanie Avalon: Already. So, we have a question from Josh. The subject is: 'Suggestions for my wife?' Josh says, "Hey, gals, I discovered your podcast a few months ago as I began intermittent fasting. Your information is very valuable and I have learned a great deal from you. My wife dabbled in fasting about a year or so ago, but struggled and backed out. Since, I have started shortly after Valentine's Day 2020, she decided to start again. However, she again is struggling and told me very recently that she gained five pounds in about four days of clean fasting and is taking a break from it once again. She's convinced that the only way she can lose weight is via calorie counting. Background, she is 30 years old. In the last year or so, she had a tubal ligation and prior to that tried numerous forms of contraceptives. She and I are pretty certain that her hormones are all over the board, mood swings, acne, heavy periods, constant stuffiness, etc. She recently started taking primrose and flax daily to begin correcting hormonal imbalances, but has stopped because of a suspected food intolerance that is currently being tested by Everlywell. The results should be here any day. I am unsure exactly of what she ate inside her window. I just know it was an eight-hour window. Her and I have tried talking about IF, but I can be abrasive and the talks don't go well. Any thoughts or advice you may have would be great as I just want her to feel better about her health and appearance. I know IF would help, if not eradicate the issues over time, but any advice would be better received from you gals."  

Gin Stephens: All right. So, Josh, I love that your wife is interested, she's intrigued with the idea of fasting, but struggling, and I'm glad that you want to help her. So, there are two things that pop out at me as so important. First of all, she gained five pounds in four days of a clean fast. It is 100% impossible to gain five pounds of fat in four days. I don't really say that, but I can't imagine [laughs] I know it's impossible for your wife, but what she was eating in eight hours. But I can't imagine a scenario where anyone would really be able to store five pounds of fat in four days, especially, if they've just started fasting. So, that's the good news.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Can I just comment really quick on that?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: That'd be really hard to do. Even if you literally took in all the calories needed for that, the body does not want to gain five pounds of fat that fast. 

Gin Stephens: No. But so, that's not what happened. She did not gain five pounds of fat. She is somebody it sounds like to me that is very scale focused, but fluctuations mess her up. So, she needs to learn get a long-term approach with that. But also, she had an eight-hour window, but she only did it for four days. So, here is what I want you to have her do. I want you to buy her a paperback copy of Fast. Feast. Repeat, not just because I want to sell her a book, but by the way, Melanie, this is super exciting. Fast. Feast. Repeat has been number one in weight loss for like, I don't know, a week or two now. Number one every day. I look at it, it's been number one. Like Obesity Code is not number one, and I love Jason Fung, I love The Obesity Code. But it's just so much fun to see Fast. Feast. Repeat number one. So, anyway, I really think she needs to read it herself. You can tell her all day long, but she's got to read it from me. That's the best way.  

Have her start with the 28-Day FAST Start chapter. Even though, that's not chapter one because it wouldn't flow well for that to be the first chapter, but have her start reading the 28-Day FAST Start chapter first, where she's going to weigh and measure before she starts, and then she's never going to weigh and measure again until day 29. Then her scale can go crazy and also, she won't see it. Also, you know, it's fine to start with an eight-hour window, especially, if you're choosing the fast start approach where you're easing in. But if weight loss is her goal, an eight-hour window may not be her weight loss sweet spot. A lot of guys can just boom, do an eight-hour window, boom, they lose the weight. Women are different. Our bodies have different needs, we may not need as much food as that. So, an eight-hour window is probably not her weight loss sweet spot. That doesn't mean it's not a great place to start and it doesn't mean that it won't be her sweet spot. I know women who especially, if they're more restrained eaters. They're used to eating slightly and that feels good to them. Maybe, an eight-hour window is perfect. For someone like me, I like to eat a hearty meal, eight-hour window was a disaster.  

She needs to also really understand the difference between low-calorie dieting and why intermittent fasting is so different in the body. That's all fully explained in the introductory chapters of Fast. Feast. Repeat. So, she can start with a 28-Day Fast Start, then go back to the beginning and read through it, and really understand how a low-calorie diet lets us down. Because very few of us, I mean, I'm not going to say it's impossible because that would be wrong. There are people who can long term do a low-calorie diet and through sheer will and determination and because they can stick to it and they keep their calories low enough, they can lose the weight and keep it off. But that's not what happens for most of us. We might be able to lose the weight, but then we rebound weight gain or there it's back again. We yo-yo. That's how it was for me. You can only white knuckle a low-calorie diet for so long for most of us. Before your body starts to rebel and then you're binging, and then you're overeating, then you're like, "This low-calorie diet, I hate it." Then, you regain the weight, you feel like you failed, but really, it was your body doing what it does when it thinks you're starving. So, all throughout Fast. Feast. Repeat I explain why fasting is different from those typical low-calorie diets.  

So, I really think that's the best thing. Let me explain it to her through the form of Fast. Feast. Repeat, have her start with a 28-Day Fast Start chapter, then go back through the part about low-calorie dieting and the Biggest Loser study and all of that, and the Minnesota Starvation experiment, then you really understand it and you start reading about it, you're like, "That's exactly how I felt when I did a low-calorie diet." And now, you understand why and you can like be relieved like, "Oh, I didn't fail. When I regained all the weight. It was my body." She also needs to really focus on the 'Scale, Schmale' chapter because if she is seeing the weight fluctuate up five pounds, I mean, as women our weight can go up five pounds because we're starting our period. But if those kinds of fluctuations make her give up, then she's got to have a long-term approach and in the Scale Schmale chapter I explain how to do that. Only her trend matters, not the day-to-day fluctuations. All right, that's all I got to say about that. I'm like Forrest Gump today.  

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Gin Stephens: Shall we go on to our next question. Did you have anything you wanted to add?  

Melanie Avalon: I did. I just wanted to comment that this kind of reminds me of what we were talking about earlier with Tracy. So, Tracy was so, so nervous about switching to high carb, low fat and it's kind of like with Josh's wife, she's super, super nervous about not calorie counting. So, I think, it requires a paradigm shift. If the person can understand and Josh rather than telling her this, you can just have her listen to us talking about it. But if the person can understand that, maybe that paradigm that they're holding about diet might not actually be necessarily true, there's a lot of potential freedom on the other side. When it comes to IF, again, like Gin was saying, eight hours might not have been short enough of an eating window for her. If she tries a shorter eating window, even if she's not calorie counting, it's harder to overeat in a shorter eating window calorie wise.  

So, she really doesn't have to be calorie counting with fasting if she can find the window that works for her and still be getting the benefits. If she does want another added "safety" to that eating window and that not calorie counting, things I was talking about earlier with like looking at the macros. You know, if she tries eating either low fat or low carb in that eating window as well that will make it even less likely that she will, at the very least gain weight changing to the fasting. And on top of that there's just so many potential benefits with the fasting, possibly, it can help with her hormones and also hoping that she figures out the food intolerances that she's having. But there's definitely, just goes back to like Tracy saying like, I sense a lot of fear with her, it might be unfounded. 

Gin Stephens: And also, four days is just really not enough time to judge fasting. That's why I had the 28-Day FAST Start and I'm so glad I thought of that putting that in the book. It was through all those years of guiding people through the Intermittent Fasting Support groups, and realizing that if people could just make it a certain amount of time, they would be okay. But it was getting them there. If you're expecting, you're going to lose weight in the first four days and then you don't, then you're like, "Well, this is crap. I'm not doing this." But if you go into it knowing, "Hey, I'm not even supposed to lose weight at the beginning and my body is adjusting, I'm going to learn how to fast first, then I could focus on weight loss." If you go in with that expectation, now, you've let your body adjust, you're much less likely to quit. I just saw that over time, so, I'm really glad I actually thought about how to put it in the book.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Shall we do one more question?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. This is from Erin and the subject is: 'Microbiome.' "Hello, Gin and Melanie, I've been listening to your podcast for about a year and I love it. I've learned so much and appreciate your layman's approach to some of the sciency topics. One area that I've learned a lot about thanks to you, ladies, is our microbiome. I've kind of become obsessed with gut health and digestion. My question for you is about prebiotics and probiotics. Can you get enough via food or need to take a supplement as well? Are there better kinds than others? Basically, what's the skinny on prebiotics and probiotics and what are your recommendations? Thank you for taking the time to review my question and keep up the good work, Erin." 

Melanie Avalon: All right, Erin. So, thank you so much for your question. So, I have a lot of thoughts on this, but I also can say them pretty simply, which is that I think the gut microbiome is so, so important. I think it's affecting so many things and I also think we know so very little about it. I think the more we learn about it, the more we realize that we don't know that much. It's shocking everything that the gut microbiome affects. So, we don't even realize like, for example, I was researching berberine recently. A supplement that you can take to lower your blood sugar. A lot people will say that that dihydroberberine form is more easily absorbed in the body and so I was researching it and actually, the way we absorb berberine normally is we take in berberine and then our gut microbiome actually converts berberine to dihydroberberine and then it goes across our cell wall and then it converts back into berberine, which is super crazy. The point of all that is that, the gut microbiome is doing so many things with how we process food and we don't even realize it. That said, as far as modulating our gut microbiome via probiotics and prebiotics, so, what are the differences?  

Probiotics are the actual microbiome strains, so the different gut bacteria. Prebiotics are the foods that feed the gut microbiome. So, they help you grow certain gut bacteria. There's a lot of debate out there about whether or not you can grow new bacteria if you don't already have that species. That's something, I actually, recently interviewed Dr. Neal Barnard and [giggles] it was a very interesting episode. We talked about that and I talked about it with Tim Spector as well. One of the things that Tim Spector pointed out was that, it's easier to actually wipe out your bad bacteria than it is to grow good bacteria, all of that to say, choosing between prebiotics and probiotics. So, probiotics, I just think it's like this swamp land where we don't know very much. I think try different probiotics, see how they make you feel, definitely give them some time if you are trying them. Some people might benefit from particularly low histamine producing probiotics because some probiotics are high in histamine or can produce histamine. So, you might want to look for a low histamine probiotic blend.  

We often work with BiOptimizers. They have a P3-OM probiotic. It's a single strain probiotic. I do really like that probiotic. But when it comes to probiotics, it's really just try once and see what they do for you. I actually really like fermented foods for helping introduce probiotic cultures to your gut. As far as prebiotics, it's ironic because in a way almost every food is a prebiotic. Because a prebiotic just means that it's feeding your gut bacteria, and pretty much everything we eat feeds some sort of bacteria in some way. But the concept of prebiotic is that it's beneficial. I personally am not a fan of like prebiotic supplements. I would rather eat the foods that will cultivate a certain gut microbiome. I just don't see any reason for it. It seems like we're trying to feed things that we might not even know if they're there. It's a refined form of food. I would just go to the foods.  

Gin Stephens: Eat food that's prebiotic. Yeah. Me, too.  

Melanie Avalon: So, do you have thoughts about that, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I just you know, in general, it's better to get it from food. Both the prebiotics and probiotics like Melanie said, with the fermented foods and everything, so, I don't take a prebiotic or a probiotic. I do eat fermented foods. When I think about it or when I can, I eat a high vegetable diet. I try to get a lot of different variety of vegetables in my diet. Tim Spector talks about this. I see him on Instagram him always mentioning, trying to have a wide variety of different plant foods. I think you're better off to try to eat, I don't know, 20 or 30, I can't remember. Some big number of different plant foods every week because then you're also going to get the phytochemicals that we're not even knowing what they are all in there. There're thousands of them in those foods. So, you're going to be getting so many benefits that you don't even know you're getting, but your body knows what to do with it. So, try to eat a variety of different foods and I'm talking about the vegetable foods and fruits. But I don't need as many fruits.  

Melanie Avalon: And then, it also might depend on your actual resident microbiome, how you tolerate those foods or not. Check out last week's episode because I think that's when we talked about the study that looked at people eating fermented foods versus a high-fiber diet. I'm pretty sure, Gin that we talked about it last week.  

Gin Stephens: I can't remember when that was, but it was just interesting if you've been eating the standard American diet long term, you're very likely to have a damaged gut lining because that's what happens with a standard American diet. So, you're going to have to take the time to rebuild it and that's the part that's tricky. So, people eat the foods, they're like, "These foods make me so sick or they don't work for my gut." Well, it's because your gut is damaged that the foods don't work. You've got to slowly rebuild your gut. I love, I can't pronounce the author's last name. It's Will something with the B, the book, Fiber Fueled, such a good book. I would read it-- Have you interviewed him, you have? Haven't you?  

Melanie Avalon: I have the contact for him. He was supposed to book and he never did.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I love his book. Fiber Fueled, great book. I talk about it in Clean(ish), but get Fiber Fueled and read it. Who was that guy we had on that was the gut guy before? Both Fiber Fueled and-- 

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Rochelle.  

Gin Stephens: Maybe. But both of them talk about how your gut can heal. That's the takeaway. Your gut can heal, and so, maybe grains don't work for you now, but you can heal. We're supposed to be able to tolerate a wide variety of foods in a healthy body. So, it's all about healing the body, but I really think Fiber Fueled is a great book. I would check that one out.  

Melanie Avalon: I need to read it. I was going to read it when I thought he was coming on the show. So, I'm going to reach back out to them today.  

Gin Stephens: Somebody, actually, today asked me if I'd ever heard of it. I'm like, "Not only have I heard of it, but I recommend it highly." He also is working with ZOE now. I read his book before he was associated with ZOE. I think he's on the board of directors or something. But when I saw that they had added him to the board of directors. I was like, "I already love him," and he's from Charleston anyway.  

Melanie Avalon: Nice. Okay, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. The show notes, which will have-- and full transcript and everything we talked about will be at ifpodcast.com/episode244. All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?  

Gin Stephens: No, but enjoyed it, and I'll talk to you next week.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Bye.  

Gin Stephens: Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 


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