Episode 276: Magnesium Benefits, Supplementing A Whole Foods Diet, Medication Interaction, Stress and Depletion, Absorption, Dosing, and Effectiveness, And More!

Intermittent Fasting


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Jul 31

Welcome to Episode 276 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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Episode 265: All About Supplements With Scott Emmens, The Supplement Industry, Purity, Potency, Testing, Toxins, Authenticity, Organics, Common Additives, And More!

magnesium clinical lab testing

magnesium's benefits

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modern causes of magnesium deficiency

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #139 - Farmer Lee Jones

Magnesium, Vitamin B6, and stress

menopausal women


whole foods containing magnesium


dosage & effectiveness

Types of magnesium & absorption rate

best way to take magnesium

magnesium threonate

taking magnesium with medication


slow motility

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Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 276 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome, this is Episode number 276 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I am not just here with my fabulous cohost, Cynthia Thurlow. We are here with a very special guest on the show. This is a repeat guest. He has appeared on one episode before which we will put a link to in the show notes. But we are back with Scott Emmens, who has quickly become one of my favorite human beings on the planet. Scott is the Chief Operating Officer at MD Logic, which is actually the fantastic supplement company that I partnered with to cobrand my supplement AvalonX line. So, we launched our serrapeptase back in November of 2021 and then very recently in July of 2022, we released my magnesium supplement. Things are also potentially in the works with Cynthia and Scott. So, stay tuned for developments there. 

But the purpose of today's show, we released my AvalonX Magnesium 8, like I said very recently in July. And the response has been really, really amazing and we've also received so many listener questions about magnesium. There’s a reason that magnesium was my second supplement, because it is so, so important. And I already knew that I wanted to make magnesium as a supplement, but then diving really deep into the clinical literature. Oh, my goodness, why are people not talking about magnesium more? It's funny. I was doing even some more research last night and was reading this really fabulous review pretty recent on magnesium. And it basically starts out by saying that “Magnesium is--" and I'm obviously using very casual terminology and it was much more eloquent. But it says that “Magnesium is so, so important and just very understudied and that there needs to be more awareness surrounding this.” So, the purpose of today's episode is to bring us all together, we got a lot of listener questions, we're going to dive deep into all of that. So, Cynthia and Scott, thank you both for being here.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. And I have to just echo what you just said working in clinical cardiology for 16 years as an NP and prior to that as an ER nurse, magnesium is woefully underrepresented and appreciated. I 100% agree.

Melanie Avalon: Did you want to make a magnesium, Scott? Was that on your radar?

Scott Emmens: That is on my radar. There are so many different forms of magnesium. And first, I would like to say, although it is my second time on the show, it's my 31st time since Cynthia joined the show. So, this will be my very first Cynthia and Mel show. So, I'm thrilled to be here. But I had thought about making multiple different kinds of magnesium’s, because there's some that forms that are really great for sleep, some forms that are great for anxiety, other forms that are really derived for athletic performance, especially if you blend it with some other core ions and electrolytes like potassium and perhaps, some sodium chloride. There's a whole, I think, magnesium world waiting out there for us. After doing the research on magnesium for the last several months that we've done, I really feel there's no limit to the amount that we can continue to study it and the various different forms and ways to take it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Actually, speaking to what both of you guys just said about how there's so much to learn, how it's underappreciated, we actually got questions about that. So, Kenna, for example said, “Why doesn't standard lab work a complete metabolic profile cover magnesium levels?” Damon asked, “Should we get lab tested for it?” What's so interesting is one of those articles that I was reading was talking about this very issue and we'll dive into everything that it's involved in. But it's so important and it affects so many things and it's connected to so many health issues. But unfortunately, there's not a clinical marker that's really easy to look at to see if magnesium deficiency is the problem. For example, with anemia and iron, that's something that is very easy to measure and evaluate with calcium. Like osteoporosis, again, something very easy to evaluate. Magnesium flows under the radar and a major reason for that is that it's very tightly controlled in the bloodstream. The majority of the magnesium in our body is actually in our cells, in our muscles, in our bones, less than 1% is in our bloodstream and then our body is very good at regulating that. So, even if it is on a standard lab test, you could be severely magnesium deficient and it's probably not going to show up. The stats on deficiency are pretty intense. A large percentage of people are likely deficient. And again, it's hard to evaluate. So, even if it was on a lab work, it might be hard to see.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I think this is an important time to interject that there is a good blood test for magnesium. But typically, most clinicians order a regular magnesium level, which is drawn from the blood. As you very appropriately mentioned, very little of magnesium is actually in our serum or blood. But a red blood cell magnesium level is looking at intracellular magnesium and this is what we used exclusively in cardiology. We would sometimes get frustrated when we're rounding on patients, because we would say the nurse, “Okay, we need an RBC mag.” Inevitably, what we get ordered was a regular magnesium and I used to say, “Well, this isn't really helpful.” Because [chuckles] we really don't have a good sense of what their magnesium is with that traditional lab. 

People that are listening to this podcast that maybe I've never heard that term, red blood cell magnesium or an RBC mag. It is covered by insurance, it is inexpensive. Every single one of us should be drawing RBC mags, at least once or twice a year. Because more often than not, it sends you down a rabbit hole. As an example, I know Melanie's had Robb Wolf on to talk about electrolytes on her podcast as well as my own. I tell people that not enough clinicians even think about magnesium. They worry about sodium, which is on a complete metabolic panel, they worry about potassium that's also on a complete metabolic panel. But you have to add the extra test. I think for a lot of clinicians, unless they're in ER medicine or cardiology, they're very likely not ordering these tests, because they're just not thinking about it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad you brought that up and that's actually one reason I really like InsideTracker, because they test RBC magnesium. Interestingly, I found a study last night that was looking at this and it was encouraging because red blood cell magnesium was more telling, I guess, than normal magnesium levels, which-- From reading that I was like, “Oh, you really can't tell anything from normal magnesium levels.” I still don't know that it's ideal. It still might not reveal deficiencies like there may be, but it's definitely much better than normal magnesium levels. And urine, for example, which apparently is all over the place. The thing they said was most promising was isotope testing but that seemed more intense. Have you heard of that before, Cynthia, the isotope?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have but it's not something I've used. I think when I worked in electrophysiology, which is a subsect of cardiology. These are the physicians that are very, very cerebral and they are dealing with arrhythmias, and pacemakers, and defibrillators. I learned so much working with them and with arrhythmia patients in particular, and their feeling at that time and obviously there's always new and emerging testing that comes out, but that and RBC mag was what we usually used to guide recommendations. But I'm sure there will be emerging testing that will come out that will be even easier, hopefully, covered by insurance. Because I think for a lot of people that is an issue when they're testing is not covered by insurance. We definitely want to make sure that the testing that's being used is something that the average person can get as opposed to just the biohacking community.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe that's a good place to start with the whole magnesium. So, definitely got questions about that. Laurie wanted to know, the benefits of magnesium. Leah wanted to know, what are each of them good for, there are so many different strains to magnesium. I don't know what they all do in the body. So, I guess, any of us can take this. Scott, do you want to talk about the benefits of magnesium?

Scott Emmens: Well, they are plentiful. But really, if you start off with looking magnesium is critical, but it's critically going to do for the body. It's going to be used in the brain for all types of neurotransmitters. It's going to be used in the muscles to both contract and relax your muscles. It's going to be used in the brain to relax the body and the brain. They are used to say 300 different enzymatic reactions. But in reality, there's data now to support between 600 and 800 different enzymatic reactions. So, it's pretty much involved in everything. But at the heart of it, it's your energy production, it’s your metabolic health, it's your DNA. It is the second most abundant cation or electrolyte in your body. So, really important for that. 

And it also helps transport other essential minerals in the body. There is a balance and I know that's one of the questions. There's a very nuanced balance between zinc, magnesium, manganese, copper, etc. But the list is many and plentiful. But in terms of the benefits that I see things like sleep, relaxation, reduction, and stress. I've had friends who had chronic migraines or headaches their all lives. That's really helped them out tremendously. For me, personally, it's been really great for muscle cramps. I play a lot of tennis outside in the heat and afterwards, I just get really bad muscle cramps. And since I started taking Mag 8, Magnesium 8, no cramps. And I have been an electrolyte fiend. Sodium, potassium, magnesium, zinc, I've been taking this now for, I think, five days and no cramps. That's my big win.

Melanie Avalon: What's actually really interesting is that same study that was talking about all the different testing methods, they basically concluded because of the potential issues with testing methods that it might be more beneficial to go off of a categorical list of major and minor symptoms. If you had a certain combination of these symptoms that that might indicate magnesium deficiency and it's so many things that you just discussed. Even before jumping on, Cynthia, you were talking about the role of magnesium that you've had in your patients. Have you found it benefits a lot of your patients?

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, absolutely. I think for a lot of women, I do find magnesium supplementation is helpful. Not just for the electrolytes, but also for sleep. There're definitely formulations of magnesium that are helpful for people who struggle with constipation. One of the things I've just found is that it's so multi useful that more often than not, I haven't found a patient yet who hasn't needed it. That should be totally honest for a variety of reasons. But yes, I do find a lot of clinical utility in utilizing magnesium and it's something that I take every single day without question. 

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Melanie Avalon: We got questions about “Why people might be deficient?” So, Wendy wanted to know, “How do we know if we have a deficiency, what causes a deficiency? I heard caffeine is one but are there other things?” Dorie wanted to know, “Do our magnesium needs change with age and/or lifestyle? Do menopausal women need more or less magnesium? If you're very active and athletic, does your body require more magnesium?” Before diving into those specifics, so, it's really interesting, because I say this a lot, but I am a huge proponent of getting our nutrients from food. 

In my ideal world, we wouldn't even have supplements. We would just eat food and life would be great. But unfortunately, our modern farming practices have severely affected the nutrients of our soils and the food that we're eating. And so, for example, this was fascinating. I didn't know this. It's estimated that in the last one hundred years, there's been up to a 90% decrease in magnesium in the soil, which is just shocking. There's a lot of reasons for that. It's the conventional farming methods. Pesticides actually chelate and bind to magnesium so they can make it not absorbable. We've been genetically modifying our food to make it, so that we can have high yield and a lot of it, but it's much less nutrient quality. Actually, it’s just complete tangent. If you want to learn more about the nutrition and food, check out my interview with Farmer Lee Jones. Did you interview him, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: Not yet. But I interviewed Jeffrey Smith and he spoke at length about glyphosate and how it chelates our minerals. It was both disturbing and fascinating to learn all of that. I think the other thing that I would just add to that is, even if you're eating all organic fruits and vegetables, the soil is so depleted of magnesium that it's unlike the type of soil that my grandparents had. So, that's one of many reasons why deficiencies are becoming more common is that even if you're eating a, what I would refer to as pure as possible, as clean as possible, you're still probably not getting enough minerals in your diet from your food intake, unfortunately.

Scott Emmens: Well, what's really alarming is, I had enough concerns about glyphosate. But to know that it's chelating and binding to our minerals making it harder for our bodies to absorb when the soil is already so depleted as it is, is rather alarming. And then just to add on to that, there's some very common medications that are used both prescription and over the counter. Proton pump inhibitors probably being the most egregious of them. When you take a proton pump inhibitor, it's been demonstrated through multiple studies that your minerals, calcium, zinc, magnesium, all of your minerals really reduced. I don't know, Cynthia maybe you know the exact mechanism, but it's likely due to reduction in acid. So, you're not able to really digest your minerals properly in your food. But those proton pump inhibitors can really have an impact on your magnesium level.

Melanie Avalon:  I'll just comment really quick because I looked that up. Yeah, it was the pH. The pH has to be a certain pH to absorb the minerals properly and the magnesium specifically. The magnesium absorbs better in a lower pH environment. So, that's probably what's going on there with the proton pump inhibitors.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Then alcohol is another big one. People that drink three or four drinks a day, they think that's normal. It's really a lot of alcohol. That's going to deplete your magnesium as well. And finally, if your minerals are out of balance, you’re taking too much zinc or too much copper, that's going to throw off your magnesium. So, you really want to make sure that your ratio of minerals is in line as well.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it's also a good point to mention that we know we make less hydrochloric acid in our stomach as we get older. Our pH tends to not be within an ideal range, which can make us susceptible to opportunistic infections. I always think about certain medications. The PPIs are a big one. But I also think about diuretics. If you're taking a thiazide diuretic, if you're taking Lasix or any of the loop diuretics, you will be losing not just magnesium, but also potassium and also sodium. It's just this domino effect. It becomes cumulative over time. 

One of the things that I used to see, obviously, if you're drinking alcohol excessively, but alcoholics in particular, people that drink excessively are really at risk and that can put you at risk for certain types of heart arrhythmias, which you don't want to end up in the ER with these particular lethal arrhythmias that are related to chronic low magnesium levels. In fact, we would frontline-- If someone was a proponent or had identified as an alcoholic patient, you would give them magnesium along with everything else you were doing to help correct that imbalance because there are specific arrhythmias we will see with alcoholics. 

I also think about just the cumulative stress. I think everyone over the past two years has really been under way more stress than probably the preceding 10 years. And so, stress can also be incredibly impactful. Finding healthy ways to manage and mitigate stress can also be beneficial to maintaining healthy magnesium levels.

Melanie Avalon: This is actually a pretty interesting study. When we formulate it and we'll talk more about the formulation later, but when we formulated my AvalonX Magnesium 8, we included methylated B6 as a cofactor to help with absorption. There's actually a really fascinating study on it. There are some studies just showing that adding the-- Well, I don't know if it was methylated, but there were studies showing that adding B6 magnesium increases absorption. But there was a really fascinating study where they looked at people who had certain levels of stress and taking either magnesium alone or magnesium with the B6. All of it raised the people's magnesium levels and had a beneficial effect. In the people who were severely stressed with even lower magnesium, adding the B6 actually provided a 24% greater reduction in their stress levels than the magnesium alone. 

I know that's talking about the cofactor, but it just speaks to me that how much stress affects our magnesium levels. They could see actually a huge difference in adding the stress in the participants stress levels. Yeah, there's so many factors. And then so, for those questions specifically, that's fascinating, by the way about the alcohol. On the flipside, Wendy asking about the caffeine. Caffeine working as a diuretic is going to deplete magnesium. But what's really interesting is that one of the highest foods or food/drinks in magnesium is actually coffee. There might be a slight offset if you're getting magnesium from the coffee with a diuretic effect, but still the net effect is likely going to be a depletion. Cynthia, what have you found for Dorie’s question about menopausal women, although you did just speak about when people age how their HDL levels are affected? But hormonally with menopausal women, do you find that they might require more magnesium?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, they're less stress resilient. We know as our ovaries are producing less and less progesterone that our adrenal glands have to pick up the slack with progesterone. I do find that this is a time when many women, there's a much more narrow window in terms of where their magnesium needs are. They're also much more easily they become dehydrated. They may not realize they're dehydrated until they get really thirsty. Both of us have interviewed Dr. Rick Johnson. We know that's a really not a good thing to be clinically dehydrated. I've just oftentimes, really, really, really emphasized why it's important to take oral as well as transdermal magnesium, especially at this time period. 

Yes, middle-aged women, if you're 35 and up, probably need to be much more diligent about supplementation. You can probably get away with a little less when you're younger, but I definitely find that stress resiliency becomes a huge issue. And so, we just really have to be much more proactive about magnesium repletion.

Scott Emmens: Agreed. I just want to circle back because I don't want to jump over the B6. The fact that the B6 that we have is the methylated form of B6, which is otherwise known as P-5-P. There are some studies that actually show that there is a potential higher risk of a nonactivated form of B6 actually displacing the activated form of B6 and thus high, regular nonactivated B6 can actually cause the same symptoms as a B6 deficiency because it's pushing out the activated form. It's competing for that same receptor side. So, it's a big difference to have that activated receptor. I just wanted to point that out. I think it makes a big difference, I should say. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm so glad you pointed that out, because I know a lot of our listeners take BiOptimizers Magnesium Breakthrough, which so many people have benefited from that. I'm so grateful to them. I wanted to take what I really liked about that supplement and make it even better, because so, when I make my own versions of supplements, I basically want to make the very best version possible. Looking at their formula, it had the non-methylated form of B6 like Scott just talked about. We definitely wanted to make that switch. I'm really glad that you pointed that out. The other one that is a change is they have a nonchelated form of manganese, which it's not a cofactor in magnesium absorption. Actually, Scott, do you want to talk about manganese because you and I have had a lot of conversations?

Scott Emmens: Yes, sure. I learned a lot about manganese this last couple of months. Manganese in of itself is a cofactor for so many things. It's a very important nutrient, particularly, in wound healing and collagen formation. In fact, it's absolutely essential. You cannot make proper collagen folds and proper elastin of collagen in your body without manganese. But to your point, Melanie, it does not increase the absorption of magnesium. However, high doses of magnesium can reduce manganese slightly. For two reasons, you want to have that manganese in there. One, it's such a critical enzyme or mineral for so many enzymatic factors just like magnesium is. But two, whatever minor displacement of that manganese you might get you're receiving from the chelated version of manganese that we have in Magnesium 8.

Melanie Avalon: That's the reason for that being there. And again, so, with BiOptimizers, it was not a chelated form. We made a chelated form. For listeners who are not familiar with chelated, it's basically creating a form of the minerals which is going to be more easily absorbed, which we can talk about when we talk about the magnesium types. I will talk about the actual foods that are higher in magnesium. Actually, Scott and Cynthia, I was looking at charts of magnesium in food. Do you guys know what is probably the food with the highest amount of magnesium per weight?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I'm thinking either like a leafy vegetable or a seed.

Melanie Avalon: It's something that Cynthia loves. I love guessing games.

Scott Emmens: Macadamia nuts? 

Melanie Avalon: I say what is the two foods I don't like. 

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] What are the two foods you don't like? 

Melanie Avalon: Olives and oranges. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, my God, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. I am that crazy olive person. My kids know not to touch my olives. I have super crazy expensive olives. But it's one of my little, like, no one touches my olive stash.

Melanie Avalon: Can I ask you both a question? Did you both or did either of you have the moment? I don't care how old you were, but was there a moment where you realized that the pimento was not part of the actual plant or is this just me?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, no, I think I always knew that because I used to pick them out.

Melanie Avalon: Scott, did you have this moment?

Scott Emmens: I didn't really have a moment. I know it. I just don't recall having a moment about it. 

Melanie Avalon: I always thought because you know when you're growing up, you see the pictures of the olives with a little pimento. I always thought that pimento was the interior of the olive, and I had a mind-blown moment when I found out they put that in there and it's not--

Scott Emmens: I'm going to go out on a limb though on the olive issue and say this that you either love olives or you hate them. I have never found someone that says, “Oh, I really like olives.” No, no, they either love olive or they hate them. That's it

Cynthia Thurlow: Conduit to salt. That's how I learned how to drink martinis in my 20s was that I’ve realized it's just a conduit to salt. So, I used to drink dirty martinis with extra olives and I was the happiest person you've ever seen.

Scott Emmens: I did dirty martini with blue cheese olives.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, no, I don't like blue cheese. But the olives, yes.

Melanie Avalon: I like none of it. I had an allergy panel test and I felt so vindicated, because I'm basically allergic. Trees are great. No allergies, Olive trees that I'm allergic. I was like, “Oh, see, my body knows.”

Cynthia Thurlow: That's interesting. No, there's not a lot of things that I get obsessive about and olives are one and probably a close second. 

Scott Emmens: Macadamia nuts are another.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Again, and they have to be salty. Don't give me an unsalted sack of macadamia nut. It is another thing that my family thinks I'm crazy about. I'm like, “It's just they make me happy.” Makes me-- it's so simple.

Melanie Avalon: So, the answer was not olives. [laughs] What else, Cynthia and Scott?

Scott Emmens: I’d go with macadamia nuts. That's what I thought it was.

Melanie Avalon: For magnesium?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, pumpkin seeds, green leafy veggies.

Scott Emmens: Avocado, maybe? 

Melanie Avalon: Well, so, to address the nuts.

Scott Emmens: Dark chocolate. Doesn't dark chocolate?

Melanie Avalon: The nut that's the highest is cashews, but yes, cacao or cacao, I get confused. One of them is like leaps beyond all the other foods. It's like that and then it drops massively for the thing below it.

Cynthia Thurlow: See, this is why I eat high-quality dark chocolate and I have raw cacao in my smoothies.

Melanie Avalon: I'm wondering if a reason sometimes people crave chocolate might be.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. That's why the people crave it pre-menstrually.

Melanie Avalon: The magnesium. So, in any case, that tangent. What's really interesting though is, all of the different studies I looked at talking about the role of magnesium and foods, it would list these charts multiple times though. They would say that, “You really just can't get enough from food.” That is an unfortunate situation. We got some questions about how do you know if it's “working?” I love this question, because so, my first supplement, serrapeptase, one of the things I love about that supplement, which for listeners who are not familiar, it's a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm, and you take it in the fasted state, and it breaks down problematic proteins in your body. So, true it can help things that you don't “notice” like reduce cholesterol, or break down amyloid plaque, or reduce inflammatory markers. But it also can have a very noticeable immediate effect in clearing brain fog and reducing allergies. You will go from needing allergy meds to just having completely clear sinuses. So, people really notice it. Or, it'll make cysts disappear and external things go away.

Magnesium can be a little bit more vague because it can affect so many things. Elinor said, for example, “How do you know it's working?” She also wants to know, “How much should she take” and she has questions about that. We can go into that. Sunny says, “How do you know it's working? Most “supplements” I take, I always say, I can't tell the difference.” Although, she says even serrapeptase, which contradicts what I just said. But she says, “If you're a reasonably healthy person with no issues per se,” she says, “Basically, how do you know it's working if you're a reasonably healthy person with no issues, per se, but you just trust that it's working?” So, how will people know if it's working?

Scott Emmens: Would you like my personal experiences for magnesium or are we looking at the data here?

Melanie Avalon: We are talking after releasing our version. Then you notice something very specific right away. Would you like to talk about that?

Scott Emmens: Yeah. The two things I noticed right away were just general energy level and feeling. I work out a lot. I'm ex-bodybuilder, which by the way, I never recommend to anyone the most unhealthy sport on Earth when you're doing it, because of all the things you have to get there. But it does teach you how to get your body to do things that it should be able to do. It teaches you all kinds of ways to make sure that all your micronutrients are in alignment. You really get in tune with your body. I was working out with my son. He's 22 years old. We went to the gym, I'm trying to teach him how to lift weights in the with the proper form, if he doesn't blow out a shoulder at 22. I just felt so much stronger. I felt my pump from the workout was better, because my muscles do seem fuller, my energy was better, but most importantly, I mentioned already the cramps.

Then on top of that also, my brain settles down at night, I sleep really well, anxiety seems to abate a little bit. For me, anxiety/sleep, because I have a terrible time going to sleep, especially if I have to catch like an early flight in the morning, then I'm just up all night worrying about the alarm going off. But for sleep, for cramps, and just general overall energy, and feeling energetic in the gym, those were things I directly noticed within just five days. I had been taking magnesium taurate and threonate for the brain for many years prior to this. So, the combination for me has really worked wonders.

Melanie Avalon: Cynthia, do you have any experience?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that in my personal experience, there are specific forms of magnesium that I would recommend. And so, what I typically would see if someone was dealing with palpitations, if we knew they had a benign arrhythmia. We had specific types of formulations of magnesium. We would recommend if someone was dealing with constipation, we had another one. Someone was dealing with sleep issues, we had another formulation of magnesium that we would use. I think it was a combination of just symptoms along with finding a targeted magnesium formulation that would be helpful.

Let me just back this up and say that the medical community as a whole, uses magnesium oxide in most clinical, hospital situations and the absorption of magnesium oxide is about 11%. If anyone's solely taking magnesium oxide or mag oxide as we used to call it, it's like throwing your money in the toilet. You definitely want Melanie's product and specific types of formulations that are designed to be absorbable, so that you actually get a net benefit from the supplement and not just literally urinating it out in the toilet, which is what magnesium oxide just by itself will do. It's very, very little. 11% is what you absorb in your body.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad you brought that up, because I guess, we can address this now, because people were wanting to know like, “Is it better to do a complex or individual magnesium’s?” I have a comment on the oxide. But what's really interesting is, there are so many forms of magnesium. Basically, the way these different magnesium’s often are formed is there the magnesium mineral basically combined with something else [chuckles] that will turn it into the form that it's in. For example, magnesium with glycine becomes magnesium glycinate or magnesium taurate, for example, would be magnesium taurine.

But to comment on the oxide, so, yes, that's a thing well known that it's not very well absorbed. It's a reason that people often will get a form of magnesium oxide just by itself to serve as a laxative. Because basically, when it's not absorbed like that, it just draws in water into the colon and can help with peristalsis and movement down there. Actually, I want to develop down the road a magnesium that will specifically be for this purpose for bowel movements. But we have a question about this on Instagram as well. The highest magnesium in the AvalonX Magnesium 8 is actually magnesium oxide. But and I very rarely use the word but or I try not to. So, it's magnesium sucrosomial magnesium oxide and I could talk about it or Scott, would you like to talk about it?

Scott Emmens: I'll do a brief intro and then Mel, I think feel free to continue on. Yeah, the reason that that that magnesium was chosen as the number one ingredient and which would thus be the largest level of magnesium is that there is a study showing that the sucrosomial magnesium, which is basically coated in some fatty esters does two things. One, it prevents other nutrients and food in the body from preventing the magnesium from getting digested and absorbed properly. And two, it's been demonstrated to increase red blood cell magnesium, which I think is the gold standard test. Cynthia had talked about earlier. Substantially more than the gold standard of glycinate and citrate. This specific form of magnesium sucrosomial magnesium really gets into the cells as highly bioavailable. And then also because of the way it's surrounded these fatty esters, it does not create the typical side effects you would expect for magnesium oxide. So, that is why that is the number one magnesium. It's going to give you that highest red blood cell increase in magnesium.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so, they had a 2018 comparison study on it and they found it had the highest absorption of all the magnesium’s tested. I definitely want to clarify that because we got a good question on Instagram saying what Cynthia had said, “Why is the number one magnesium [unintelligible [00:42:24] oxide when that's not well absorbed?” And so, that is why. I guess, since we're talking about it now we can talk a little bit about the other forms as well. This was very interesting to me, because like I said, there are so many forms of magnesium and I don't know that this is happening, but I wonder if this is happening a little bit where people will say, “This type of magnesium is good for this health benefit and this type of magnesium is good for this health benefit.” I do think that is the case, although, when you look up these magnesiums individually in the clinical literature, there will be a handful of studies for each type looking at a very specific issue. It's hard for me to discern. Are we just ascribing certain benefits to certain magnesiums because that was the one benefit that was tested for that type of magnesium, if that makes sense? So, that's a reason that I wanted to have multiple forms just to assure that you're getting magnesium and all these different forms to help with all of these different benefits and like the kitchen-sink approach rather than just putting all your eggs in one basket. 

For example, looking at magnesium orotate, which is one that we have in AvalonX Magnesium 8, there's a really, really fascinating study that looked at its effect on gut health specifically, and found really amazing benefits, and how it modulates the microbiome gut access. It affects the microbiome beneficially and from there it effects neurotransmitters and inflammatory signals, and helps with motility, and the gut wall, and even DNA synthesis. It's hard for me to know, is that just because they did that study on the gut health with magnesium orotate, what would have happened if they had done a different type of magnesium? So, that's something I'm on the fence about, but I think the best approach and a reason I wanted to make the blend was just to hit everything. Or, for example, they did studies on magnesium amino acid chelate, which we have in ours and they found that it was really protective of DNA and dramatically could actually increase RNA folding and prevent RNA degradation. But again, I don't know if it's just because they chose to study that with that type. So, yeah, any thoughts on any of that?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that there's a lot of misunderstanding in the ergogenic aid industry. I'm going to say this purely as a clinician. I do find that there's value in supplementation, but not enough people do the due diligence. One of the things I really respect about Melanie is how detail oriented you are to really look at the literature, and see what would be most beneficial, and find other products that you liked. But you want to improve upon them. From my perspective, there were specific formulations that we use. But I don't even think at the time I recognize that not only are most ergogenic aids not regulated. You don't always know what you're truly getting. So, working with a really high-quality supplement company is a number one important. But then also really understanding what does your body need or if you are comfortable figuring out what it is that your body needs, working with someone to help you better understand what your unique needs are and then finding a supplement that will meet those needs.

Melanie Avalon: I agree so much and we could go on a whole tangent. Actually, if you want to learn more about the whole supplement industry, and the testing, and the quality, and all of that, check out the first episode, Scott and I did, because we went down the rabbit hole talking about all of it. And so, yes. And Scott, what were your thoughts?

Scott Emmens: Yes. My thoughts are a couple of things. I do think that each form does have subtle differences for two reasons. The first is that, whatever amino acid, or organic molecule, or even inorganic molecule that the magnesium is bound to, it gets cleaved at different parts in the metabolism and then that amino acid has its own effects on the body. The magnesium then also has varying degrees of solubility and bioavailability, plus the amino acid, or organic, or inorganic salt attached to that magnesium also plays a role in how it's going to affect your body. I do think that the different forms make a difference. That's why I like this, let me get a global approach to have all of the core magnesium in there, but in the proper order. What is that proper order? What is being absorbed the most, what are the most absorbable forms or the most bioavailable forms? Then there is a separate issue of which magnesiums have the most elemental magnesium. This gets a little complex. Stop me, Melanie, if I get too far down the rabbit hole on this one. 

But for example, magnesium oxide is used because it contains the most elemental magnesium per gram. 60% of magnesium oxide is elemental oxide or-- elemental magnesium. The issue though is that it's very insoluble. Therefore, its bioavailability is very low. What you want is a product that has that perfect in between world. That's where things like glycinate and citrate really shine. Even chloride shine, even though it's not definitely the best. But that's where these shine, where they have a very high magnesium content, they're highly soluble, and they're highly bioavailable. And with glycinate, for example, we know that that also works to help calm your nervous system, help calm your gut lining. Glycinate as an amino acid or glycine as the amino acid really helps make that magnesium better in terms of its absorption, but also, the amino acid itself helps with some of the things magnesium does, i.e., calming you down, creating GABA in the brain. So, yeah, I think there is a big difference and that is across the board of both the content, the solubility, and the bioavailability. Then what does that specific amino acid and/or organic or inorganic complex salt attached magnesium do for your body.

Melanie Avalon: Two thoughts to that. One, Scott and I went down the rabbit hole. How many hours do you think we spent trying to find the answer to this question? Basically, what I was pondering was that process, for example, magnesium being complex with an amino acid, does that mean that when you take it in, because we wouldn't say that magnesium breaks the fast. But then I was thinking, “Oh, well, if it's complex with amino acid and then that is broken down, and then we received the amino acid, would that actually be “breaking the fast?”’ And so, Scott and I've spent hours trying to find the literature on the actual metabolism of magnesium amino acid QA, for example. I think where we landed was hard to know, but just to be safe. If you want to be super safe about not “breaking your fast,” probably take it in your eating window. We got questions about that. For example, Laurie said, “How do I take it for maximum results, fasted or nonfasted?” And then Nydia said, “Will the magnesium affect my fasting or should I take it in my eating window?” And then, Tracy said, “How should I take your magnesium and when should I take it? Empty or full stomach?”

For two reasons, I would say potentially either opening your eating window or with your eating window. One, if you're concerned about that fast breaking potential of the complex amino acids, it might be a thing. I'm not sure, but it might be a thing. Then number two, there's a lot of research on absorbing magnesium and it's actually, likely more absorbable with a meal with some caveats. But high protein intake can help with absorption. The actual meal itself for two reasons. One, because of the release of stomach acid and remember how we were talking earlier about the low pH helping with absorption. So, that could be a factor. And then also, when you have a meal, magnesium is absorbed throughout your entire GI tract. It is actually pretty rare. Most things we take in, they're specifically absorbed in one part of the GI tract, but magnesium can go all the way it can be absorbed. And so, when you have food, it actually carries it and helps with absorption all throughout the GI tract. And then this was interesting to find. Sugar can actually help with absorption, but that is contradicted in a way because the insulin release actually is taxing to magnesium levels, so that might not be a net benefit. But MCTs can actually help with magnesium absorption. Our AvalonX Magnesium 8 is formulated with a very tiny amount of MCTs as the-- okay, Scott, make sure I use the right terminology as the what? The filler or the lubricant?

Scott Emmens: That is the lubricant.

Melanie Avalon: A lubricant. It's very minimal, but it likely also helps with the absorption. But going back to the food, so, taking it with food can likely help absorption. I would suggest either to open your eating window or with your eating window. That was a lot. Any thoughts about the taking of it, either of you?

Scott Emmens: I think you nailed it. I think definitely you want to take it with food if you can because you're going to get a better absorption of the magnesium. Also, because there is a potential and I think it's very minimal that it could break your fast. There are amino acids in there. It could technically break your fast. So, I think for both that reason and the fact that you're going to get more absorption, I would take it with a meal.

Melanie Avalon: Great. And then also something I wanted to point out, because we're talking about the way it's absorbed and I was talking about the different benefits of the different ones. Magnesium threonate, Lucy Ann said, “Does the mag threonate that you've made--" To clarify, we're launching a separate magnesium threonate nightcap and I'll talk about why we're doing that. She said, “Is that a separate product only to help with sleep or do we need to buy both it and the Magnesium 8 to get all of the benefits?” The thing about the magnesium threonate is, it is a special type of magnesium that is specifically created to cross the blood-brain barrier. The majority of magnesiums do not cross the blood-brain barrier. Magnesium threonate does. And so, it can have pretty profound relaxation effects, and stress relief effects, and helping into sleep. Originally, we were going to include it in our blend. But after looking into it more and Scott can actually talk a little bit to this a little bit in more detail, but we decided to create it separate, so people could use it individually if they specifically wanted that sleep-inducing effect that relaxation. Scott, do you have thoughts about the amount that was required to get effective?

Scott Emmens: Yeah, absolutely. Threonate is a magnesium I've been taking for quite a long time. And not only does it help with sleep and stress and anxiety, but there are studies that have shown-- There is one human study that's been published. I believe in a peer-reviewed journal. I'll try to find that article for you, Melanie, where magnesium threonate at 1.5 to 2 grams per day actually showed a reduction in the age of the brain and had a substantial improvement in cognitive ability and also showed an increase in cerebral magnesium within the cerebral fluid. There is something specific about magnesium threonate in the brain and the brain health that is very different. 

Now, going back to this magnesium elemental content, meaning, how much actual elemental content is there in each form. Oxide has the highest. It's 60%. But yet it's insoluble, so you don't really absorb it that well. Whereas glycinate, for example, has a 10% elemental content, and it's very soluble, and it's highly absorbed. You're going to get more from a glycinate than you would otherwise. Threonate is one of the lowest. It's close to 7%. Meaning, you need a full gram of magnesium threonate to get 70 milligrams of that into your brain to cross that brain-blood barrier. When we first thought about putting it into your Magnesium 8, we could not get to the therapeutic doses. You would literally need to have taken six capsules to get there. It just didn't make sense to incorporate a subtherapeutic dose of L-threonate in that formula. 

To answer the second part of that question, do you need it to sleep? No, there are many people that take one magnesium, and they sleep great and they feel great. But if you're looking for that extra sort of mind focus and this is where you had asked me earlier, “Are there other magnesiums you want to launch in the future?” Absolutely. There are things combined with threonate. A threonate alone, the one you're launching, which is a threonate solo product for sleep and for anxiety, and potentially for other things with the brain. You don't need to have it. But for those of you looking for that brain specific effect, I would highly recommend it because I've been taking that magnesium threonate along with magnesium taurate, which is a blend for a long time, like, five years, probably. But it wasn't preventing my cramps. It was helping my brain, it was helping my heart, but my muscle cramps weren't going away, my energy levels weren't higher. So, that's where the Magnesium 8 comes in. It helps with that physical muscle cramps, my physical workouts, I have more energy, I feel better, I feel fuller, just more energetic in general. But then the threonate is the one that gives me that brain power. So, I'm going to take both, but you don't need to take both. It's really what you feel you need in your life.

Melanie Avalon: One last thought to that. Since most people are likely deficient, I would definitely take the Magnesium 8 to address the deficiency issue. And then if you are looking for that specific benefit of the threonate, then I would get the threonate, which I'm very excited about launching. So, stay tuned for that.

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Melanie Avalon: We had a few questions about taking magnesium with other supplements. I'll just read some of these. Andrea says, “Does magnesium work well alone or should it be taken with other supplements for maximum benefit?” Kim wanted to know, “Does magnesium affect the absorption of other meds and/or supplements?” She says, “She's currently taking meds for hypothyroidism and recently read that she shouldn't take it with magnesium.” Angie said, “She wanted to know if iron was affected." She said, “I saw in a running blog not to take magnesium and iron together. So, I love to have this answered.” And Kim also said, “Does she need to eliminate iron.” So, I know Cynthia you had some thoughts about the hypothyroidism meds and magnesium.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's interesting. Magnesium is a cofactor for healthy thyroid production. In addition to magnesium, things like iodine, selenium, also iron are all very important. And so, I don't think someone should be fearful that magnesium is going to be harmful, especially if you already have an underactive or autoimmune thyroid issue. In fact, because I have an autoimmune thyroid issue, I'm very proactive about repletion of my magnesium. It's interesting when I was looking at the literature, because I saw some of these questions ahead of time. I started thinking about the fact that there are other types of supplements and maybe this is something we can talk about in a subsequent podcast. There are other types of supplements that may be beneficial for thyroid function, specifically things like L-carnitine, and myo-inositol, and melatonin, and resveratrol. Some of them have some decent studies, others do not. But I would not be fearful about repletion with magnesium if you have a thyroid health issue. You do however want to make sure that you take your magnesium separate from your Cytomel, Synthroid, Nature-Throid whatever type of thyroid medication you're taking, you really want to take that in a fasted state, with an empty stomach, and then not be taking supplements at the same time, because that could be nonbeneficial, of course.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, thank you so much for looking into that. The iron thing, so, this is really interesting and I already told Cynthia that she's going to hear this story twice. I wanted to look into this iron issue. And so, there's not a lot of literature saying that there is an issue with iron and magnesium. There's one study and it was a case study. It was one person. It was an anorexic Asian woman, who was 28 years old and was using high amounts of magnesium as a laxative. They found in the study that the high use of her laxatives with magnesium was potentially causing and/or exacerbating her anemia. And that when she stopped the magnesium laxatives, her hemoglobin went up. And then when she started back on them again, because she did, her hemoglobin dropped again. What's interesting is, so that's the study I could find saying that it was a problem and there's a lot of studies that reference that study. I wouldn't take away from that that we shouldn't take magnesium and iron together. Even in that study, they say that magnesium and iron can be taken safely together. So, that's an extreme example. 

In general, it should be fine taking iron and magnesium together. If anything-- and this relates to what Cynthia just said. If anything, magnesium levels are actually pretty important for proper iron use and not having anemia. So, that's something to consider. We got a really interesting question from Cathleen and I don't know if you have thoughts on this. But she said that her OB said, “She could keep taking her magnesium until her third trimester, but then it could delay labor.” Do you have thoughts on that?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, yeah, we know that magnesium has the potential for being a smooth muscle relaxant, which is why we use it with asthmatics and people like that. Magnesium sulfate is something that is used to treat eclampsia or preeclampsia. That's when women have abnormally high blood pressure during pregnancy, they get swelling in their legs that can be quite serious. Because I'm not an OB and I don't know Cathleen's history. I think that she should follow along with whatever has been recommended to her. I take pregnant women pretty seriously. When they're asking questions, I always defer back to their obstetrician or gynecologist. I think it's reasonable to follow the recommendations based on pregnancy. I think that's completely reasonable. With that being said, yeah, that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Well, also, with the whole concerns, things, and maybe this is something we can end with, we have questions about taking either too little or too much. So, Judy wanted to know, “Can we take half dose of your Magnesium 8 and still see effects?” And then Alyssa said, “How do you know if you're taking too much?” And Laurie said, ”Is too much toxic in anyway?”

Cynthia Thurlow: Unlike things like if you take too much potassium, which can be life threatening, you take too much salt, that can be life threatening. Magnesium, you take too much of it, you will get loose stools. It is self-limiting, which means if you take too much, you'll get some loose stools. You'll say to yourself, “Oh, I took too much magnesium.” You will stop, your magnesium levels will come back down, your stools will harden up, and it goes away. So, it's pretty benign. I, myself have had instances where I'm trying new products and I include myself in and I'm like, “Okay, I had too much in that product and this is the side effect.” Generally, not a dangerous thing. Magnesium is very forgiving. And so, for that reason, it's one of my favorite things to replace electrolytes with, because it tends to be pretty user friendly. And so, if you get loose stools, you might just need to back down on your dose or take it less frequently.

Scott Emmens: That is literally the exact the moment you took too much, you go like, “Oh, I took too much.”

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: And for people who do struggle with slow motility and constipation, it can be a game changer on that front. Earlier, we were talking about effects that you can see. Because I have a lot of IBS and digestive issues and so, taking magnesium is so, so helpful for me with motility. I'm honestly so grateful when I think about magnesium. What's really funny and I think I probably might have told both of you this before, but when I recently had a colonoscopy, my GI doc was asking me, because I was telling her how I struggle with slow motility and she was asking, “What do I do for that?” I said, “Well, I take magnesium.” She was a conventional doctor and she was really nice and great with the procedure. But she was like. “Oh, well, you shouldn't be doing that because you should be taking MiraLAX.”

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, MiraLAX is garbage. 

Melanie Avalon: She was saying, “You really need to be taking MiraLAX.” I was like, “Well, the magnesium work so” and she's like, “Yeah, well, it hasn't been studied for that. You should not be taking that.” I was, “Oh.” [laughs] 

Cynthia Thurlow: You know what? I could tell you that MiraLAX is designed to only be used for four weeks. What are most people doing that are taking MiraLAX, they're taking it for their entire life. And so, that to me speaks to someone that is not current in the research. I was humored by how many of my elderly patients were on MiraLAX. I remember asking a colleague, I was like, “Is this benign?” And then so I went down a rabbit hole and looked at all the research and said, “This is a self-limiting drug.” Meaning, it's designed to be used for a short-period of time, but what we do is, we don't find the root cause of the constipation. We treat it with a drug that ends up being a hypermobile medication, instead of, is it the medication, another medication? Is it because their bowel is lazy? Are they a diabetic that now has a lazy bowel? Do they have a tumor? There're so many things that it could be. To me, I would much rather take magnesium than take a drug that is not designed to be used chronically and habitually.

Melanie Avalon: It was such a moment, because I was like, “But the magnesium has all these health benefits. There's not an issue to overtaking it, it helps me. What is the problem here?” There is that. For Judy's question about taking half a dose and seeing the effects. Of course, you can try half a dose and see how it works for you. We did formulate it to help people get the recommended daily intake. So, we would recommend taking the recommended dose on the bottle. But it really, it's always an N of 1 situation. So, finding what works for you is key.

Scott Emmens: And I did warn you, Cynthia to not take five of our magnesiums like you do with the melatonin because it'll have catastrophic consequences. [laughs] 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, no, no. Magnesium, I'm very comfortable with. But for anyone that's listening, MD Logic has very effective melatonin. Because I've been taking another manufacturer's product and been taking 80 milligrams, I thought, “I'll just take three.” I could barely wake up. So, I can now get by with one. It's very efficacious. But yes, Melanie's product is formulated to be very effective and I'm actually starting it tonight, I'm going to be excited to be able to share it on social media, and talk about it, and obviously, support my cohost. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm so happy. All right. Well, this has been absolutely incredible. We got into so many topics and we had even more questions that we didn't get to. If listeners have more questions, definitely feel free to submit them and we can answer them throughout other episodes. I'd love to hear people's feedback on trying the AvalonX Magnesium 8 to feel free to post pictures and all the things. I love seeing those. If you would like testimonials featured on the website, so if you would like to be on the website, let us know. We can put that up there. And discounts and codes for everybody because we love those things. 

You can get AvalonX Magnesium 8 as well as my serrapeptase at avalonx.us. You can use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON or the coupon code CYNTHIA. Either of those will get you 10% off. And then you can also shop at MD Logic. Any of their supplements, you can also use the coupon codes, CYNTHIA or MELANIEAVALON to get 10% off sitewide there as well. So, definitely stay tuned for more developments. I have a whole line of supplements that Scott and I want to make together. And then I hinted at the beginning, hopefully, things will be manifesting with Cynthia and Scott. And so, just speaking for me personally, I am just so, so grateful that Scott came into my life. If you want to hear the whole story again, check out the first episode that we did. But we didn't anticipate in our first call that we would end up where we are right now doing this, but it has been--

Basically, long story short. I always knew I wanted to make my own versions of supplements and I wanted them to be the very best that I could make. I didn't have the time, or capacity, or actually, desire to actually find the facilities, do the production, do the ordering, the shipping, logistics. And Scott came into my life and not only could he do all of that, but he's like me with really caring about the science, and what's happening, and the quality, and the purity, and the potency, and so. It's just been a dream relationship and I'm really excited for the future. I'm excited that we're all friends, me, Scott, and Cynthia. So, Scott and Cynthia, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for being here. Either of you have any last thoughts before we wrap this up?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I'm super excited. You know how much I like magnesium. So, anyway, I can help support you, my friend. I'm super excited about continued collaborations with Scott and looking forward to getting my creatine out there later this summer/early fall.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited about your creatine.

Scott Emmens: So am I, because I ended up taking all the supplements we've created together. [chuckles] I think that's what makes this such a great team is, everyone really cares about the quality at the end of the day and about the customer or clients and fans that we have. We're going to make sure we always do right by them. I think you've summed it up great today, Melanie, both at the beginning and the end is you wanted the best of the best and that's we're doing. We're creating the best of the best product using all the best things from all the best products and making them even better.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Well, thank you guys so much. For listeners, the full show notes and the transcript, there'll be two links for that. You can go to either ifpodcast.com/episode276 or you can go to ifpodcast.com/magnesium. And again, the coupon codes CYNTHIA and MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off sitewide at both avalonx.us and at mdlogichealth.com. And stay tuned for future developments and we'll have to do some more episodes, the three of us with future product launches. Thank you, guys so much and I will talk to both of you very soon. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds great. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Scott Emmens: Bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]


Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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