Welcome to Episode 328 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
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SHOW NOTES
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TRANSCRIPT
Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 328 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 328 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.
Vanessa Spina: Hello.
Melanie Avalon: And for context, Vanessa is still in Colorado. So, we're excited to be recording during the day.
Vanessa Spina: Oh, it just feels so like-- I feel so sunny and full of energy. I love podcasting with you in the evening. It's just it's a different vibe. It's like, I've got my tea and I've got like a cozy sweater on. [laughs] It's a different vibe, whereas now it's full sun outside, bright skies, and I feel more awake and energized for sure.
Melanie Avalon: I love it. I love it, love it. I have a super random question for you.
Vanessa Spina: I love random questions.
Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, last time, I talked about how I went to the Biohacking conference, which friends, just as a brief plug again, I highly recommend everybody go to next year. The next one is in Dallas. It's like in May-ish of 2024 and I will have a coupon code for listeners. But for now, the link is melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference. And you get to see all the guests in the health and wellness sphere. Try all the cool biohacking products. Meet so many cool people. You can meet me. I got to meet listeners last time. It's just such a fun time. And this is coming from the girl who gets super stressed with traveling, and I just had the time of my life. It made me think of a question though, because like I said, it was the first time getting to meet all these people that I've either interviewed or know virtually or have been following and maybe don't know personally, I got to meet them in real life.
Most people were kind of exactly what I thought they would be in a good way. I know this isn't just me because I was talking with some of my friends that went as well. I do think there are some egos in the sphere. Sometimes, people aren't quite what you expect them to be. So, I was just reflecting on because you and I, we interview so many guests, so many people. This is just like girl chat with our audience. What's the craziest experience you've had with a guest, or have you had a crazy experience with a guest on your show?
Vanessa Spina: I feel like I've had so many. And like you said, it's funny because maybe you follow someone or you talk to someone online over the years on Instagram, or you connect on different platforms, whether it's like Twitter or whatever or you follow their work and you have an idea of what they'll be like in person. You want that idea to match up with reality, when you meet them and not be disappointed. I've definitely had both experiences. But often you and I get to meet people that we look up to because we're podcasting with them. And you go from reading, say, an author's books to suddenly spending an hour to intimately chatting with them. I mean, intimately by being in just like a closed setting, it's just you and them and no one else.
I had one really funny experience. It was really funny to me, but maybe someone listening will also find it funny. So, I had been wanting to interview this guest for a really long time. I was really excited about it. I just thought they would be generally like a normal, nice person. [giggles] We had scheduled this podcast, and this person had also asked me to come on their podcast. So, sometimes people will contact you and say, "Do you want to do a swap?" I'm like, "Oh, great." I wanted to interview this person anyway on my podcast, so let's do it back-to-back. I always like to do them back-to-back.
My podcasts are generally around an hour. And with Luca and scheduling, it just works better for me if I just knock out their interview and my interview on their podcast the same block of time. So, this one happened to be late in the day, because when I podcast with people who are on the Pacific Coast, it's a nine-hour time difference for me. With Prague, yes, I usually cut things off around 09:00 or 10:00 Pacific, because that's our dinner time. But sometimes, I'll make an exception if someone like, "I understand it's hard to get up at 07:00 and do a podcast at 08:00 in the morning." You don't always feel like you're warmed up yet. So, sometimes I'll make an exception. So, I did make an exception this time and it was in the winter time. It was getting dark. It was like dinnertime, and Pete was going to take Luca out for a couple of hours, and he takes him actually down to the mall near us because it has a play area for kids, and Luca loves going on the slide, and with his dad, and everything. So, I was like, "Okay, you guys get dinner and then you guys can go play at the mall for two hours" and we'll knock up both interviews.
We actually just had a time change the week before this happened, so I reconfirmed multiple times to make sure that our times would be correct. Because when the time changes in North America, it doesn't change in check for two weeks. There was like a period of time where you and I were like an hour closer in our scheduling. It was just so nice. But it lasts for two weeks. So, I get ready. I'm doing a video podcast and I'm all set to go. Pete just took Luca, they left. I'm sitting there waiting for the guest to join. It's like, "Okay." 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes when I start emailing being like, "Hey, are you still joining?" I get this email back and they're like, "According to my schedule, we're podcasting an hour from now." And I was like, "No, it's actually this time. You selected the time. It's this time and I'm here whenever you're ready, jump on." It's like another 15 minutes go by. I'm emailing their assistant and stuff.
Then the person gets on the podcast, and they're shirtless, and I can only see them from the waist up because you're sitting at a table usually, and they're like, "What's going on?" And I'm like, "Oh, we have a podcast scheduled for now." And the person's like, "Well, I had the podcast to start an hour from now." And I was like, "Well, you asked for it to be at 09:00 PST, 09:00 Pacific Standard Time, and it's now 09:00 Pacific Standard Time." That person happened to not actually be on the West Coast. They were in another country, and that other country did not change their clocks, and that person did not check what time it was PST. So, that person thought that it was an hour earlier than it actually was PST. So, I'm like, "Yeah, it's 09:00 AM." It's 09:00 AM. And then they realize, "Oh, shoot, it is 09:00 AM." So, the guest is like, "Well, I just finished working out for an hour, and then I played sports for an hour, and I was planning on coming home and having a nice breakfast, and then starting the podcast." And I was like, "Okay, well, why don't we reschedule one of our podcasts, so you can go eat, and then in 45 minutes or half an hour, we'll just do one interview instead of two back-to-back." And the guest is grumbling and making all these frustrated sounds.
Melanie Avalon: I'm feeling so awkward right from this conver-- Oh, man, okay. I'm feeling the awkwardness.
Vanessa Spina: I was feeling so awkward. I'm dressed professionally. The person's half naked and then the person goes, "Wait, okay, just wait right here." And I kept saying, "Look, it's totally fine. Let's just reschedule. Let's do the other interview next week, like, go have your breakfast." And his person's like, "No, just wait there. Just wait right here." And goes in the other room, which I'm assuming is the kitchen, and just starts banging all these cupboards open and closing them and is making themselves like a meal or something. I'm just sitting there like, "What do I do? Do I go or do I stay on?" So, I'm just staying on. I can tell the person is really annoyed, but annoyed at me, even though I'm at the right time and they got the time wrong. I reconfirmed three or four times with their assistant before this happened, because I knew that the time zones can be an issue.
So, I'm just sitting there and I'm texting Pete, I'm like, "I don't know what's going to know. I'm hoping we can just get these done," because I can't have him take Luca out for another hour. Like two hours is already the most that he could take him out to a play area. It's nighttime. It's going to be 8 o'clock by the time. We're done. So, I can't have him keep Luca out until like 09:00 or 10: 00 at night. So, I'm like, "Let's just reschedule." So, they're making themselves some breakfast. It sounds like they're having a bowl of cereal or something, [laughs] I'm just sitting there. And then the person comes back, I think still shirtless and is like, "Okay, I ate. So, let's just bang this out in 45 minutes or something, do a shorter episode, and then I'll interview you on my podcast and we'll do a shorter episode." And I'm just like, "Okay. [laughs] Why don't we just reschedule? It would be so much easier." So, we start the podcast off and I'm interviewing them on my podcast. And so, I'm like, "Let's talk about intermittent fasting because it's so great to be fat adapted, because when you are fat adapted and you are not able to eat right away, you don't get hangry. I can tell you are right now." [laughs]
Melanie Avalon: You didn't say that, right?
Vanessa Spina: I did. [laughs]
Melanie Avalon: You did?
Vanessa Spina: I did. You could hear it on the episode. I did, but I was laughing. I was laughing. And thankfully, I don't know, he took it well and was like, "Yeah, I am hangry right now because I just did two hours of exercise, and I was planning on eating, and not just going right into the podcast." I think because I made a joke, we were able to get past it. But it was the most awkward, unprofessional thing I've ever experienced. I really expected this person to be-- The person was very nice, but I expected them to be professional, and kind, and just courteous and like, "Okay, let's just reschedule to next week or something" like that because you have a young son who's out right now trying to stay outside in the winter at night, so that we can podcast. So, sometimes, when you meet your heroes or people you look up to, they disappoint you. It's crushing. I think it reminds me of my favorite story of yours, which was the one the person said like they only had half an hour.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. My version was also somebody very high caliber. I always ask the guest in the beginning-- I always say, how much time do you have? Because I want to be respectful of their time. And he said, no time limits. He had as much time as needed. And then literally 20 minutes into the episode, he made some sort of passive aggressive comment about the time. I wasn't quite sure. I was like, "Wait, is he trying to say something?" So, I just ignored it and kept going. And then just abruptly 30 minutes into the episode, he was like, "I really have to go now." I was like, [laughs] "Okay." It was so awkward. I'm shuddering thinking back about it.
Vanessa Spina: Were you able to salvage the episode and still publish it?
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, but I just shuddering thinking about it, and then after that, it's like, how do you recover. And then I felt really bad because then I felt like I was impeding on his time, which was not my intention at all.
Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I felt bad too.
Melanie Avalon: We just want people to be happy. [laughs] Wait, this is crazy timing. I got an email today. Actually, this has never happened to me before. This is like the drama episode. I got an email today asking for a podcast swap. Just energetically, I'm so far booked out on my biohacking show, and I also get pitched daily by people, so I'm having to say no all the time to really amazing people. I stress about it. I shouldn't, but I do. It's funny. This was a funny story. So, there's a guest that I had been declining and then at the Biohacking conference, I always bring it back to that. But I was at a party, and his publicist recognized me and came up to me and was like, "Are you Melanie Avalon?" And she was like, "I have been pitching you" this person, she's like, "You've got to have him on." She was so nice, but she was like, "He's perfect for your audience." So, it was like an in person IRL pitch from a publicist for their client. So, then I was like, "Oh, yeah, resend the information." So, I did end up booking him.
Vanessa Spina: Wow. Good for their publicist for coming up to you.
Melanie Avalon: I know. I was like, "I need to hire her." But she was so nice and I'm actually really excited about that guest. But like I said, I just get so many pitches that it's just hard. But in any case, I did get an email today asking for a podcast swap. So, not only do we get a lot of pitches and we have to say no, but me going on shows isn't really energetically draining for me. I just don't really like going on other shows. So, it's just a lot for me. I just needed to decline the request. So, I asked my assistant to decline it, and the person emailed me back and said something like, "Oh, wow, this is crazy. I guess, Melanie is too good or too big now for me" or something. I was like, "Oh," which made me really sad because that's what I don't want people to think when I'm declining. It's not about that at all. At all. Yeah, sorry. This is like the drama of podcasting.
Vanessa Spina: One of the things I love is that we both do the same thing for work, and we get to share these kinds of stories because there are really interesting things that come with being a podcaster that no one else can relate to unless they also do this. So, I love that you and I always get to talk about that kind of stuff and just like the funny stuff, the exciting stuff. And then also sometimes, the awkward stuff that happens to makes me feel less alone and more just understood.
Melanie Avalon: I love it. And then I did tell you yesterday, I did a four-hour podcast, and it was so funny. Friends, listen to my episode with Charlotte Fox Weber. I got so personal in things I shared. So, if you want to learn a lot about me-- But it's funny. At one point, I was saying something and then Charlotte was like, "None of this is going to be in the episode, right?" And I was like, "Oh, yeah, it is." [laughs]
Vanessa Spina: She's like, "Wow."
Melanie Avalon: I was like, "Oh, yeah." [laughs] I'm an open book.
Vanessa Spina: Is it actually four hours, the episode?
Melanie Avalon: I'm taking out about half an hour of it, which is where we did go off record and started talking about lot of stuff personally that I will take out. So, it's probably going to be three and a half hours.
Vanessa Spina: Wow, that's epic. Is that like your longest episode ever?
Melanie Avalon: It might be actually. I think with the four hours it is. What's your longest episodes?
Vanessa Spina: Well, the longest single episode is like an hour and a half. But if I go to two hours, I just do a Part 1 and Part 2 because I have two episodes that come out each week. So, instead of my Thursday episode where I break down a study, I just make that the Part 2, because then it's like maybe I find it could be a little bit more digestible. But if I only did one episode a week, then I would just leave them.
Melanie Avalon: That's crazy that you do two a week.
Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Yeah, I've often reconsidered if I should be doing.
Melanie Avalon: It would be an interesting trial run to switch to one and see if you see, just see.
Vanessa Spina: I know. And I was actually thinking about this morning polling my group and being like, "What would you guys think if I just did one a week?" But for me, I love podcasting so much and the Thursday episodes are my solo episodes where I just catch up with the audience, and catch up with listeners, and I just basically talk about different biohacks that I'm trying or doing. And then I'll usually break down a study or two. I just find them so fun that there are weeks, even when I'm on holiday, that I'm like, "Maybe I should just not do a Thursday episode this week." And then I'm like, "But no, I want to." [laughs] So, I really, genuinely enjoy it. It brings me a lot of joy. But if it ever gets to a point where it doesn't, then I'll have to reconsider it.
Melanie Avalon: Have you thought about doing Peter Attia and doing a subscriber feed for that one?
Vanessa Spina: I have, I have but I just like providing-- [crosstalk]
Melanie Avalon: Like, open access.
Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's just kind of my model. I know you do too. Yeah?
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm the same way.
Vanessa Spina: I've never done like a paywall or anything.
Melanie Avalon: Same. Yeah, we're on the same page there.
Vanessa Spina: Oh, my gosh, I have to tell you real quick about this new supplement that I've been trying, if you don't mind.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, please do. Yes.
Vanessa Spina: So, this company contacted me called Mimio Health. Have you heard of them?
Melanie Avalon: I don't think so. What do they make?
Vanessa Spina: It's absolutely amazing. So, their lead scientist, who's also the CEO. Usually, when companies-- I also get pitched every day with products, potential guests, some of them, I'm like, "Why would you think that this guest would be on this podcast?" You get on lists, right? So, there's a lot of automated ones. But once in a while, something will stand out to me and I'll be like, "Oh, I want to learn more about this," like same for you. So, this company contacted me. I was like, "This product actually sounds insanely amazing." This scientist, Dr. Chris Rhodes, he created the world's first biomimetic that replicates four of the molecules that the body makes when you're in a deep state of fasting after 36 hours. Also, I'm usually also skeptical in general about certain supplements and especially things that the body can make on its own. I've never been a proponent of exogenous ketones. I'm like, "Your body makes ketones. Why would you take them unless it's for a therapeutic or medical application?" But I was like, "This sounds really interesting." So, they actually did research studies on the molecules that the body makes during prolonged fasting after 36 hours, and then making these molecules, and then giving these molecules to the subjects in the study, and getting similar life extension benefits. Of course, they're not doing them on humans yet. They're working their way up to that. But it's really amazing, because just like with berberine--
When I first heard about berberine, I was like, "Oh, this is interesting, but who could this potentially help?" There are a lot of people out there who struggle to do fasting, or who struggle to do low carb, or who struggle to not eat processed foods or maybe do paleo or whatever it is. So, sometimes people need a life raft. They need support. They need some kind of supplements. It's like this actually sounds really interesting to me in the sense that it could help people who are not really naturally adept at fasting. I just think it is super amazing. It's the world's first biomimetic and it's called Mimio. And yeah, it's absolutely fascinating. There're basically four molecules that the body produces after that long period of fasting that have specific effects on life extension, and those are the ones that are in Mimio. So, it's really exciting.
Melanie Avalon: I'm looking at it now. It's interesting. So, one of them is spermidine. When I went to the Biohacking conference, I became friends with, I think, probably the number one spermidine company out there.
Vanessa Spina: Oh, wow. I've definitely been hearing more and more about it.
Melanie Avalon: I have too. I've been hearing about it for so long. I met some of the people at spermidineLIFE. I came back. It's funny. Or, I probably was texting Scott from the conference. I was like, "Scott, I want to make a spermidine." So, it has spermidine, niacin, and then I don't even know how you pronounce the other two.
Vanessa Spina: They're really hard to pronounce. Yeah, nicotinamide is one that probably a lot of people have heard of with boosting NAD levels. And then this one I had heard about strangely for years. Let me see if I can pronounce it. Oleoylethanolamide and palmitoylethanolamide. [laughs] Really hard to pronounce, but abbreviated to OEA and PEA. And PEA is an endogenous cannabinoid and OEA is a cellular-- I guess, it's produced from the fats in your body. But I've heard of it being taken before on its own. I've heard of actually all of these been taken on their own, but not combined together. They found that there are synergistic effects as well to combining the four of them. These levels go up by several times when people are doing prolonged fasting. So, yeah, I thought I wanted to mention it because I'm trying it out myself right now. It also helps people to fast if they are doing fasting, but it also helps people get the benefits of prolonged fasting even if they are not doing fasting.
Melanie Avalon: Wow. Now I'm looking at it, I'm like, "I want to connect them to Scott, because it has the steroids and the silicon dioxide and stuff." I see these things and I'm like, "I want the version with the no fillers and everything." This is so cool. I'm going to definitely look more into these compounds. Let me know what you experience with it.
Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I want to come back and update everyone when I've had a couple of months or two, three months of trying it out.
Melanie Avalon: Very cool. Did they give you a link?
Vanessa Spina: Yes. I actually do have a code. It's KETOGIRL10. If you go to mimiohealth.com and use the code KETOGIRL10, you can get 10% off a subscription for three months if you try it out. Yeah. I don't really get excited about products often, and I don't really get excited about supplements that often. I love the ones that you make. I really don't get excited that often about them, but I really love what they're doing. I'm going to have the lead scientist, Dr. Chris Rhodes. Dr. Chris Rhodes is coming on my podcast in next week. I'm interviewing him. So, we're going to be talking all about the studies that they've done so far and the ones that they have that are in the works to be published as well. So, I love whenever a company is doing something. They're also putting capital and investment into doing the research as well. They're really standing behind their product, and they're also releasing a product after doing the research on it. You don't always see that. A lot of companies just come out with products willy-nilly. They really are standing behind the research on it, and they have the scientific evidence behind it.
Melanie Avalon: That's so cool. Do you know what the starter kit is that you get with the--?
Vanessa Spina: I have it. Yeah, it's really beautiful. They have really beautiful packaging, but it's basically just like the capsulated form of the supplement.
Melanie Avalon: Okay, very cool. Awesome. Well, we'll put links to it in the show notes. Definitely let us know what you experience. I'm definitely going to research this more. Like I said, that the spermidine one has definitely been on my radar for a while.
Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I bet you connected with so many cool companies and things while you were there. There must have been so many companies doing things that inspired you or made you want to look into doing different things. I always come away from those conferences just feeling really pumped about all these different things and ideas I want to do.
Melanie Avalon: All the people behind all these products, at least in my experience, are so passionate about it. They're really, like you said, they're believing in the science, they're doing the research, and it's just so cool to collaborate and meet these people, and then experience the benefits ourselves, and then share it with the audience.
Vanessa Spina: Yeah, totally. Like your CAROL bike. There's just so many-
Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. don't get me started. I'm so upset. Wait, let me just really quickly. Friends, get a CAROL bike now everybody. It's my favorite thing. I seriously thought, I was like, "I'm not going to really use that," because I'm not an exercise equipment person. I've had a mirror for so long with the exercise and I don't use it, which makes me sound, I'm very ungrateful. My point is, I didn't think I would actually use it. It is so incredible. So, long story short, it uses REHIT, which I did some more research on. So, basically with HIIT, high intensity interval training, which I feel like most people are familiar with now, but that's basically where you do really intense short bursts of exercise followed by these rest periods. It gives you the maximum benefit as far as cardiovascular health, metabolic health, it helps deplete your glycogen levels, and it helps you have this afterburn effect where you burn fat. So, not that you burn a ton of fat during the actual session because they're really short, but you have this afterburn effect that can last for hours, where you're burning more fat.
REHIT, they did some research and they realized that the magic is basically in the intense burst and you don't need this elongated rest period. So, they've been able to scrunch it up. It was already like a 20-minute workout with HIIT. Now with REHIT, it's like an 8-minute workout, because they basically realize you don't even need that extra time you thought you needed. So, to get all the benefits, you only do it two or three times a week. It's an 8-minute session. And all you do is work your way up to an all-out burst. It's a bike. So, on the bike for 20 seconds, twice. That's it. It is so easy. In between, it has you breathing and pretending that you're a hunter gatherer. It's amazing. [laughs]
Vanessa Spina: I can't wait to try it.
Melanie Avalon: You wear a heart rate monitor. It's just so cool. So, if you go to carolbike.com, the coupon code MELANIEAVALON should get you $100 off, I believe. I just think it's like the best investment especially for people crunched on time getting their metabolic fitness as best as it can be and it's so fun and easy.
Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's awesome.
Melanie Avalon: Okay. Shall we jump into some questions for today?
Vanessa Spina: Yes, that sounds great.
Melanie Avalon: So, we have a question from Jen and she has some berberine feedback, and she has a question about flavored electrolyte timing. So, Jen says, "Hi, Melanie and Vanessa, longtime listener of the podcast and loving the new dynamic with Vanessa on board. I still miss Gin, but I'm so glad the fun, energetic, friendly, but still informative vibe is back. I find myself laughing along with you two and it's like hanging out with two friends while having in depth conversations about IF, win-win." And I will say Jen, we feel the same way." So, it's exciting to know that listeners are down with our craziness. First, she has some feedback on Melanie's AvalonX berberine supplement. "Wow, game changer. This is hands down the most effective berberine I've ever used by far. I've been taking berberine from various reputable brands for probably two years ever since I did the ZOE test and found out I have poor glucose control and heard Melanie talk about it. I've also been wearing a CGM intermittently during that time to track how berberine affects my glucose levels. I found with previous brands that I've had inconsistent, sometimes minimal effects, and often would have a rebound massive peak after the berberine would wear off. This was with highly regarded brands as well as dihydroberberine, which is reportedly a more potent, longer acting form. I admittedly didn't use your berberine for a while after I ordered it, because it wasn't the dihydroberberine form which gave me better results. I wear a CGM, maybe two to three times a year for about a month and I recently decided to wear one again. I kept using my dihydroberberine and I got the results. Then I decided to use the AvalonX berberine to see how it compared. I admittedly was nervous because I had such inconsistency and minimal effects before."
She says, "I cannot believe how effective your AvalonX berberine is. Easily 40 to 50 plus point reduction in spikes compared with other brands including dihydroberberine While eating my usual higher carb foods and meals. My eyes popped out of my head when I saw how well it controlled my glucose on my CGM. If I have a lower carb meal, my CGM basically stays flat as expected and it lasts some slight rebound spikes later on, especially if I haven't slept well, but minimal and often doesn't even happen. This product is phenomenal and I can't wait for your subscriptions to start. Thank you so much for being so committed to creating the best products you can and not releasing anything until you know you got it just right for your exact standards from development to delivery. Love your Magnesium 8 and Magnesium NightCap too."
Okay, I'm just going to comment on that before her question. Thank you so much, Jen, for sharing this. And Jen, same story. Well, sort of. I was using Thorne berberine before creating mine. I thought I would see the same results on my CGM, as well I was shocked. For me, it was about a 20-point difference using mine, which is incredible. I think it just speaks to the importance of really the effort and energy, and shoutout to Scott at MD Logic. But sourcing the best of the best ingredients, doing multiple testing for potency and purity and taking out these fillers, which I think can be an issue for absorption and effectiveness. So, it's really, really thrilling and I'm just so grateful and honored to be able to create the most pristine version of these supplements that I personally want to be taking. For listeners who aren't familiar with berberine, it's a compound that has been used in traditional Chinese medicine and ayurvedic medicine for thousands of years, and there's a lot of studies on it and it rivals metformin in blood sugar control, which is the number one medication prescribed for blood sugar, without the potential side effects, it's not a pharmaceutical, it's a natural plant compound, and also has a lot of other benefits like, it affects cholesterol beneficially, gut health beneficially.
Interestingly, for all of you fasting lovers, it actually has been shown to activate AMPK, which is a cellular pathway that we activate with things like calorie restriction, exercise and fasting. Activating the AMPK pathway is one of the reasons that we likely see a lot of the benefits of fasting and the longevity promoting benefits. So, berberine can do that as well. By the way, Jen, so went back and forth for a long time about whether or not to do dihydroberberine or berberine. And so, dihydroberberine is basically an isolated form of a more active compound in berberine. After extensively researching it, we decided that we don't know-- So, dihydroberberine is a metabolite of berberine. I just don't feel confident knowing--
Berberine has been used in its whole form for thousands of years, and it has so many metabolites. There's probably a lot of things doing a lot of things in berberine. And so, I felt more comfortable providing the whole form rather than this one part of it that may be doing more with the blood sugar. It just made more sense to me from a holistic perspective to do the full form. I feel really good about that. I'm contemplating doing a dihydroberberine in the future and having both options, but it's really nice to hear that experience from you. So, thank you. Oh, and subscriptions are available now. Although when you're listening to this, you will have missed the epic launch special that we did. So, hopefully, you were on my email list for that, which is avalonx.us/emaillist. But berberine subscriptions are available. I think the normal discount will be 15%, but that will all be at avalonx.us.
Okay, Jen's question. She says, "My actual question, I love LMNT electrolytes, but can only drink the flavored versions. The raw unflavored tastes like punishment to me. So, I don't drink electrolytes during my clean fast." I'll just comment on that really quickly. So, with LMNT, they make a lot of different flavors and the raw unflavored one is the one that has no flavors, obviously, and it is clean fast friendly. So, Jen, I'm sorry that you don't like the raw unflavored. A lot of people, it does work well for them during the fast, but of course, it's not for everybody. So, she says, "My question is, when is the ideal time to drink flavored LMNT during my eating window, when I break my fast to catch up or towards the end to get me through my next fast? I do one meal a day, mix macros and clean fast typically 20 hours to 22 hours a day, a minimum of 18 hours, and will occasionally do over 24 hours if I have a long day at work. I'll also do a 40-hour to 42-hour fast once every one or two weeks. I've been eating this way for the past three years, and I'm in my early 40s. Also, do I even need electrolyte supplementation with my usual 20-ish hour fast? I eat carbs, so I assume my insulin and aldosterone levels are within normal limits, and I'm not losing excessive amounts of sodium.
Once I open my eating window, I'm taking in carbs, as well as sodium and possibly potassium and magnesium. I do feel the need to drink LMNT after my 40-plus hour fast though, and I usually open those windows with some bone broth and LMNT. Thanks ladies and keep up the good work."
Vanessa Spina: I am drinking my watermelon-flavored LMNT right now [giggles] to keep me hydrated while we do this episode.
Melanie Avalon: Wait, have we talked about this? Is watermelon your favorite fruit?
Vanessa Spina: No, raspberry is.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay.
Vanessa Spina: Raspberry-flavored things are my favorite. When it comes to the actual fruit, what I mostly have is strawberries and blueberries. But I'll do frozen mixed, like, blackberries, blueberries, all the berries when I make a protein shake.
Melanie Avalon: If you were to make a Tone flavor berry, what would you want to make? Raspberry?
Vanessa Spina: Probably. I have so many flavors I want to make. [laughs]
Melanie Avalon: Wild berry, like the Pop-Tart?
Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah, that would be amazing because we're starting off with vanilla, chocolate, and cookies and cream, because cookies and cream is my favorite flavor with a protein powder, especially because you can just add some almond milk and ice to it, and then you have protein ice cream in the summertime. But vanilla, obviously, is so versatile. But yeah, I haven't thought about the fruit flavors yet. That's a good idea. I need to think about wild berry.
Melanie Avalon: Do you use that machine that everybody has now to make the ice cream? Do you know what I'm talking about? Everybody talks about it.
Vanessa Spina: I don't know. I have a Ninja ice cream maker. Is that the one?
Melanie Avalon: I think it's Creami, Creaminmi. Wait.
Vanessa Spina: I have the Ninja, which I got last summer and it is amazing.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, it's the Ninja CREAMi.
Vanessa Spina: Yes, the CREAMi. I started using it last summer and what's so amazing about it is you can make a super high protein frozen yogurt. So, that's the main reason that I got it is I'll make Pete a chocolate ice cream with tons of egg yolks and really chocolatey. He loves that. But for myself, I get nonfat high protein yogurt and I'll mix in some frozen berries, a little bit of stevia, a little bit of salt, sometimes some vanilla, and it makes frozen yogurt. And when I was a kid, one of my favorite things was getting raspberry or frozen berry-- frozen yogurt, but you can never really find it without artificial sweeteners in it and that kind of thing. You pre make it, freeze it overnight, but then it takes five minutes to make. So, in the summertime, it's absolutely amazing and it tastes delicious. I give Luca. He loves it too. I will give Luca on a really hot day after dinner, we'll sit on the deck and have our ice cream together. Pete will have his chocolate and I'll have my high protein frozen yogurt. It's amazing. It really works well.
Melanie Avalon: What is the process exactly? Like, what do you freeze?
Vanessa Spina: So, you make the blend of whatever it is that you want. It comes with a recipe book, so there're lots of different things you can do, or you can just come up with your own creations, which I often do. You make the blend and then you get these two different ice cream cups and you fill them, and you put those in the freezer. They have to be in, I think, at least 12 hours if not 24 hours. I can't remember exactly because I haven't made it since last summer, but I will be when we get back home. So, then once it's frozen, you take it out and you just put it in the machine, and it takes about four minutes to five minutes, and it stirs it with these really powerful blades and turns it into ice cream.
Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, it's similar to a normal ice cream maker.
Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I've had ice cream makers in the past, but I found them-- I had a Cuisinart. Sometimes it would work, sometimes it wouldn't. Sometimes it wouldn't freeze or it wouldn't actually turn into ice cream. So, maybe because I was doing so many keto kinds of ice creams and things, but I just found it was hit or miss, whereas with this it's just like no matter what I put in there, it just turns it into a frozen treat.
Melanie Avalon: I kept seeing and I keep seeing people talk about it. And so, I was thinking maybe it was so cool because it took away that freezing period that's required. But it sounds like nobody has invented anything yet. I've actually found it really shocking that there's not in our modern day and age.
Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you'd think there'd be like something--
Melanie Avalon: You just plug in and go.
Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It is instant, right away when you want it, as long as you pre make it. But yeah, I really like it a lot. I also am obsessed with my Ninja blender for making protein shakes. I think I've tried just about every single different kind of smoothie maker and blender on the market. It's so powerful and it works so well. So, I love making protein shakes in there. So, I'm a big fan of their products.
Melanie Avalon: Do you ever make soup in it?
Vanessa Spina: No, I haven't.
Melanie Avalon: I used to do that.
Vanessa Spina: It sounds yummy. I feel like we really digress. Sorry.
Melanie Avalon: Wait. I just have one last quick question. Really quick question, because I got hit by memories of different things I would do with my mom when I was little and we had this-- When I was like three or four, this McDonald's thing, and you made, like, French fries out of bread and little burgers that were like cookies with icing. And now I'm thinking about, I'm just wondering if you had any of these kits. Did you have the McDonald's kit or did you have Creepy Crawlers or did you have an Easy-Bake Oven?
Vanessa Spina: Easy-Bake Oven, I think some variation of that.
Melanie Avalon: So good, childhood. Okay, so back to her question. That's what happens when you bring up watermelon. Okay.
Vanessa Spina: We totally digress there, but I'm drinking my LMNT right now. And the reason I mentioned that is because it's been really hot here in Colorado. I've been exercising a lot outside doing. I do a morning hike for about an hour every day. And because I'm outside in the heat, I am taking more LMNT than usual. It's something that I always make sure that Pete and his dad and friends have with them when they hike the Grand Canyon. They do a lot of hiking in Utah. Whenever we do aggressive hikes or hikes, I always take it with me. So, I say all that because it really comes down to your lifestyle and goals and what it is that you are wanting to optimize for. So, if your main goal is optimizing for feeling good and energized and feeling that you are performing well when you're doing fasting. You're not specifically looking for getting the additional benefits of autophagy and life extension.
I think having any kind of the LMNT any time of day is probably fine because it's flavored, it's sweet. You might get a bit of a cephalic phase insulin response. But I know it's technically not clean fasting, but I think it just depends on what exactly you're optimizing for. If you are optimizing more for getting the specific benefits purely from fasting, you probably want to stick just to the raw outside of your eating window, have the LMNT in your eating window, and then you'll be only clean fasting, maximizing your benefits from getting the clean fasting. But if you're an athlete or you're anyone who does a lot of activity, especially in the summer, it can be really helpful. I tend to take mine. I'll have a little bit before I do my hike or workout outside and then I have the rest when I get back. I'm doing two times to three times as much as I usually take right now, because I am sweating outside. I'm losing a lot of electrolytes.
So, there're a lot of different factors when it comes to when to use it. I acknowledge that it's not clean fasting to be having some sweeteners. But right now, I'm not personally really optimizing for getting the maximum benefits of fasting from intermittent fasting. I tend to focus on that. When I do my seasonal extended fast for five days, I don't have any LMNT during that time. I would have the raw one. I wouldn't have the flavored one, because I'm really trying to get my body into that really deep cellular repair and all that. That's just my approach. And so, yeah, I know it doesn't technically fit the definition of clean fasting, but I'm just wanting to share a little bit of anecdote on how I'm using it. It just depends on how strict you are with your fasting and not fasting and how many carbs you're eating, because if you are super low carb like keto, then you probably need electrolytes, you probably need to supplement. But if you're eating high carb and you eat a lot of salt, then you may not need to as much. What about you, Melanie?
Melanie Avalon: Do you have thoughts on, if she is having it in her eating window, like, she was saying before eating or after eating?
Vanessa Spina: With regards to before after eating in the eating window, I don't think it would necessarily make a difference. But you did say in your question, should I just enjoy it at the beginning or should I use it to help me power through? I think it just comes down to personal preference. I can't really speak to that because it just depends on what you would like, but maybe you have better information to share on that.
Melanie Avalon: No, I feel very much really similar. We actually are planning to have Robb Wolf back on the show. I'm supposed to circle back with him to book for the fall. So, we'll definitely have a listener Q&A with him. And so, if listeners want to go ahead and start submitting questions about electrolytes or anything with Robb, paleo, continuous glucose monitors-- well, it's not really continuous glucose monitors, but his second book, Wired to Eat, is about how different diets work for different people. Sacred Cow, so, the role of regenerative agriculture and having animal products to support the health of both ourselves and the environment. And of course, electrolytes, send questions our way. So, my thoughts are very similar to Vanessa. And with Jen, she's asking--
Well, first of all, the window question, like, when to have it, before or after eating? Same as what Vanessa said. I really think it's more of an intuition thing. If it is a matter of just getting your electrolyte balance, I don't really see how it would make a difference if it's before or after. Because in the end, it's all within the eating window. I'm similar to you, Jen, in that I have carbs in my eating window and I don't perceive that I'm losing large amounts of sodium. I do do a daily sauna session for sweating, but I actually don't ever feel dehydrated, and I just feel like I'm getting a lot of electrolytes through food. I forgot about this. I actually asked Robb this last time I had him on my show, because I was asking if I could get enough electrolytes from my food, because I eat a lot of scallops. If you look at the back panel of how many I eat, it actually fulfills the sodium requirement according to the back panel.
So, it's different though when I'm low carb, I do feel the need more for electrolytes. But when I'm doing the carbs, I don't feel the need as much. So, I do think it's very individual, and being in tune with your own biology, and how you feel. Although, interestingly, sometimes I will have a saltier meal or something, and the next day I will feel like some sort of battery turned on in me. And so, then like, "Hmm, maybe I should be doing more electrolytes concentratedly." But in any case, basically, Jen, I would encourage you to not overstress about it. What you're doing, sounds like it's working. Be intuitive and it sounds like you figured it out with the longer fast as well. So, I agree with Vanessa, goals and I think intuition.
Vanessa Spina: I would think it would be fun, and I think I'm going to actually try this is, I'm about know do another CGM session or I don't know what you call it.
Melanie Avalon: Me too. I'm going to too. I was going to put one on tomorrow maybe.
Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I want to see if there's a difference when I do the raw unflavored versus when I do the flavored. That might be something for listeners to try, something for Jen if you're curious on the best times to take it. You could see, if you take it at the start of your eating window or at the end does it affect your morning blood glucose or does it affect your postprandial much? Because I could see it having really different effects on different people. I could see for some people it having no effect at all and then I could see for other people it having some effect.
Melanie Avalon: Same. Ooh, I'll be so excited to hear if you try that. That'll be fun for you to share with us.
Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think there're just so many cool things that you can learn from using a continuous glucose monitor. There's just so much power in that knowledge that you can get from biofeedback. We just have so many amazing tools now that we can use that you don't just have to be guessing, how is this affecting me, like, poking around in the dark because now you can actually get biofeedback from all these different tools and see, this is what it's actually doing to my blood glucose or my ketones or my rate of fat burning or whatever it is that you're measuring, and actually make decisions based on that biofeedback.
Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited, because I'm finally about to retest with InsideTracker and I want to see-- I mentioned earlier how I had made a dietary change that I think affected my HbA1c. So, I'm really excited to see how that might have changed. And appropriately enough, I did not plan this, but NutriSense, InsideTracker, and LMNT are all sponsors on today's episode. That was not planned. So, you can listen to those ads to get the offers, but I will just tell you them now as well. So, if you go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast, that will get you a free sample pack for LMNT with any order. So, definitely snag that. You'll get free electrolytes.
For NutriSense, they offer a continuous glucose monitor and an app that helps you interpret the data and dietitian support. I love them. They're amazing. That's the CGM that I'm going to be putting on tomorrow. So, for that, you can get a discount when you go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the coupon code, IFPODCAST. So, that's nutrisense.io/ifpodcast with the coupon code IFPODCAST.
For InsideTracker, you can get 20% off their ultimate plan, which is a ton of biomarkers that help give you a true gauge of your health as well as your "inner age," which is based on this data, which basically shows what your true "age" is compared to your chronological age. They also measure the results by their ideal ranges rather than conventional ranges. It's a game changer for keeping track of your results over time. I'm just so grateful to InsideTracker. I use their tests and then I upload my own blood work. You can see over time where you are, where you're going. It uses AI to make predictions about where you might be going. And then it also gives you action-based things that you can act on. So, dietary things you can do, exercise things you can do. It's really a valuable service. So, you can get 20% off their ultimate plan when you go to insidetracker.com/ifpodcast. Okay.
Vanessa Spina: I'm actually trying them out tomorrow.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, you are? I'm so excited for you.
Vanessa Spina: I'm so excited. My last day here, I am going to Quest to get the blood draw done. I can't wait. I'm so excited, especially for the biological age. That is something that has really interested me for a long time. And I know that Dr. Rhonda Patrick has a certain process that she does, and there're lots of different people have-- different scientists have different approaches, but I'm really curious. Have you done the biological age, the inner age?
Melanie Avalon: Yes, I've done it every time. Thankfully, it's always younger than mine. But it's really exciting to see how when your biomarkers change how it changes. And like you said, there're a lot of different formulas out there, a lot of different people doing it. I had Dr. Morgan Levine on my show. She was amazing. She has her own formula for it. But David Sinclair is actually involved in InsideTracker and he's one of the go-to longevity people.
Vanessa Spina: What about the DNA test? Have you ever done that?
Melanie Avalon: Which one?
Vanessa Spina: When you check out with InsideTracker, there's an option to add the inside--
Melanie Avalon: I forget about that. Thank you for bringing that up. So, if you do the DNA test once, then once you do it, it's so cool. It'll tell you in your app your genetic potential for the things. So, when you get back your result, it'll say, cholesterol, for example. It might say you have a tendency for high cholesterol, but yours is actually lower. Or, it'll tell if you're doing better or worse or what your genetic tendency predicts. So, it's really cool. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's amazing. Well, I'm so excited.
Melanie Avalon: Are you doing the DNA test with them?
Vanessa Spina: I'm just doing the ultimate package and the inner age, the biological age to start with. But I think I'll probably do the DNA testing at some point.
Melanie Avalon: Okay, awesome. Yeah, I think when I started with them, I was just doing the blood work, and then got the DNA when I started working with them more. Yeah, it's really, really cool. I'm excited for you.
Vanessa Spina: Thank you. And thank you for introducing me to them.
Melanie Avalon: No, of course. Does the one that you're getting tomorrow have insulin?
Vanessa Spina: Yes, they just added insulin, and they added TSH, progesterone, and estradiol for women, specifically.
Melanie Avalon: The most recent one. So, before that they added ApoB, which made me so excited. And then they added the women's biomarkers, which is amazing. And then the most recent one is insulin, which is very, very exciting.
Vanessa Spina: I love having my-- Last time I had it was 2.4, so I'm really excited to see what it is now.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow, that's really low. That's amazing.
Vanessa Spina: Yeah, the doctor circled it, of course, because anytime you're out of the reference range, they're like, "This is bad." And I'm like, "Well, no, actually it's really good, but thanks." [laughs]
Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. That's amazing. Let me know how it goes. It's so easy. Basically, just they send you a lab slip, you just go to any Quest. There're tons of Quest locations everywhere in and out.
Vanessa Spina: I love it.
Melanie Avalon: Did you make an appointment at Quest by the way?
Vanessa Spina: Yes, I'm going tomorrow morning.
Melanie Avalon: Okay. Because they've changed their system. You could just walk in?
Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I did it online. I love getting data back anytime I have blood work, it really excites me. Anytime I get a body scan done or anything, I just get super excited to see the results. So, yeah, I love the information.
Melanie Avalon: It's like Christmas.
Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Literally. I'm so excited. I'm like, "Five days to six days, what do you mean?" [laughs]
Melanie Avalon: It's so exciting. Oh, and here's a really powerful reframe. I was actually talking with Dave Asprey about this, and I was talking about some of my blood work that I wasn't happy with. He had the most beautiful perspective, because I made a joke about how I failed at this one biomarker, and he was like--
Vanessa Spina: The A1c?
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, probably. So, I made a joke. I said I had failed the test. He said, "It is not possible to fail at health tests. It's just information." I think that's really, really important to keep in mind because like you said, it's so exciting to get back your results. But also, I think people can get into the trap of feeling like it's deterministic or it's a really bad thing, but it's just information and it's empowering and you can make choices accordingly, and even more so now with all of these tools and things that we have access to. So, yes, I just want to empower listeners.
Vanessa Spina: I love that. I love a reframe like that. That's amazing.
Melanie Avalon: Got to love a good reframe. So, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. You can submit your own questions to the show by directly emailing questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And you can join my Facebook group, IF Biohackers and submit questions in that group as well. And I will ask for questions in that group too. So, definitely let us know your questions when I do that. And the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode328. They will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. I know we talked about a lot of stuff. So, definitely check that out. And then lastly, you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. Oh, I saw that you got a verified blue check. Was that new on your account?
Vanessa Spina: Yes, it's part of the Meta verified because I'm in the US and normally in Europe, they don't have it.
Melanie Avalon: Wait, I'm confused. So, you were able to apply while you were here?
Vanessa Spina: Yes, I just applied the day before yesterday. And for some reason, it just wasn't working for me in Europe, but it worked while we were here.
Melanie Avalon: That's so interesting.
Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, we'll see when I go home if it stays, but hopefully, it will. [laughs]
Melanie Avalon: Very cool. That's funny. Well, in any case, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?
Vanessa Spina: Oh, I had the best time. Oh, I did want to mention because I mentioned Mimio Health, again, the code was KETOGIRL10, if you wanted to get 10% off and check them out at Mimio Health that's mimiohealth.com. And yeah, can't wait for the next episode.
Melanie Avalon: Perfect, perfect. I will definitely check out that interview. When are you airing the interview with him?
Vanessa Spina: It should be out by the end of this month. Yeah, I can't wait to hear what you think of it.
Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I can't wait to listen. Okie-Dokie. Well, enjoy the rest of your day, not night. I will talk to you very soon.
Vanessa Spina: Sounds great.
Melanie Avalon: Bye.
Vanessa Spina: Bye.
Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.
[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]
STUFF WE LIKE
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
LINKS
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Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
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More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
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Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com
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