Episode 327: Binge Eating, Protein & Satiety, Slow Eaters, Disordered Eating, Mental Health, Biohacking Conference, Denver, Brisket, Birthday Cake, OMAD, And More!

Intermittent Fasting


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Jul 23

Welcome to Episode 327 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And 2 Packs of Bacon Free for a Year plus $20 off your first order!

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Danger CoffeeSupport your fast with clean, anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidant rich, patent-pending coffee developed by Dave Asprey, which actually remineralizes your body with 50+ trace minerals, nutrients, and electrolytes! Danger Coffee uses a process that exceeds government and industry standards, and is third-party lab tested to be free of contaminants and mold. Dave selected the hand-picked, farm-direct beans for their quality, superb floor, and elevated performance. Get 10% off at melaneavalon.com/dangercoffee with the code melanieavalon!

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BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 2 Packs of Bacon Free for a Year plus $20 off your first order!

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Luca’s Keto Birthday Cake

Episode 324: Air Purification, Biking, Protein Intake & Exercise, Bolus Intake Of Protein, Allulose, Monk Fruit, Erythritol, Stevia, Hormones, Blood Sugar, And More!

Go To Toneprotein.Com To Get The Vanessa's New Protein Supplement With An Exclusive Pre-Launch Discount!

join me next year at the 10th annual biohacking conference! go to melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference for more information.

Stay Up To Date With All The News On The New EMF Collaboration With R Blank And Get The Launch Specials Exclusively At melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist!

Listener Q&A: Kimberly - What Is The Difference Between Omad And Binge Eating? My Doctor Seems To Think These Are Synonyms And I Can’t Disagree More.

Characteristics of binge eating disorder in relation to diagnostic criteria

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #166 - Megan Ramos

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.


Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 327 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 327 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. 

Vanessa Spina: Hello everyone. 

Melanie Avalon: And Vanessa, how is life in Colorado? 

Vanessa Spina: It's just so amazing and awesome to be podcasting with you during the day [laughs] feels so good. For both of us, it's much better times. It's early afternoon for me, midafternoon for you. So, it just feels really good that I'm looking out the window. There're blue skies, it's bright and sunny, [giggles] it's not dark outside. It just feels really good. So, yeah, coming to you from the Mile High city. 

Melanie Avalon: Which city are you in? 

Vanessa Spina: So, we're just in Denver, a little bit outside Denver. So, I'm looking at the beautiful Rocky Mountains from the view of the office here. It's beautiful. It's just amazing here. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I was looking at pictures on your Instagram. First of all, the house looks really beautiful. And you could see out through the window, it seems like elevated. The room that you were in with the birthday party dinner?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, we're a little bit elevated up here. Yeah, it's really nice views all around. Colorado is so open. It's so different from Prague, I guess, because we're more in the city, but everywhere you look, everything's just like wide open. Like, big spaces, everything's big, everyone has huge homes. We call them like little castles, because in Czech, everyone lives in smaller spaces, because there's way less space. Everything's just like on steroids here. It's just the contrast. You don't really realize it until you leave, and then you haven't been back in a couple of years, and then you're like, "Wow, [giggles] everything is so different here." It's another world. 

Melanie Avalon: I love it. And I was listening to one of your episodes, and I heard your story about craving brisket. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my gosh, [laughs] yes. It's number one on my list when we're back in the US. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so good. And Luca was not so much a fan?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, he loves brisket, like smoked meat and especially beef. It's pretty easy to chew for him as well, like, much easier than steak because it's broken down. But my number one thing, whenever we were at KetoCon would be to go to Terry Black's, which is across from the place where they host the conference. They have the most amazing brisket there. We have barbecue, American style barbecue places in Prague. But there's nothing like the real thing. So, I was really excited to get to have some while we were here. Yeah, it was a huge treat. 

Melanie Avalon: Another question for you, because I think this will relate to a lot of listeners. So, you had an adorable birthday party for Luca.

Vanessa Spina: Just this weekend. Yeah, a couple of days ago. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Well, first of all, what did he think about the cake? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it was so much fun. So, he's turning two and we did a blend for themes. We had Choo Choo Train because he's obsessed with Choo Choo's and that was his main gift, was a train set. And also, Cocomelon. He loves Cocomelon, which is this character on YouTube that plays songs like the Wheels on the Bus. And so, he's obsessed with school buses because of Cocomelon. So, we had a hybrid, like Cocomelon school bus, Choo Choo Train theme, and it was awesome. Everyone had so much fun. I made him this cake, which I was sending you pictures of. I don't bake a lot. Like, I literally only bake once a year, usually, for a special occasion. So, last year was his birthday. And this year, because I want him to be able to enjoy a birthday cake and have it not have all kinds of weird stuff in it. So, I made him Luca's birthday cake. The recipe is on my website, if you want to check it out. But it's basically a layer of vanilla, a layer of chocolate, and a layer of strawberry. This year, I just did vanilla and chocolate with a vanilla frosting. Everything sugar free and gluten free. 

This year, I ordered keto sugar free sprinkles that I found on Amazon. So, I covered the whole cake around the sides in the sprinkles, and then I had these cake toppers of a little Choo Choo Train, and a big 2 that was dipped in gold. It was so cute. We brought the cake out. He was just mesmerized by it. [laughs] Last year, when he had a bite of it, he clapped. It was the first time he ever clapped. So, he was so excited. It was really cute, because we were all singing him Happy Birthday, and he was just like, "What is happening right now?" [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. How did you respond to eating it? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, he liked it a lot. The cool thing is, the people who are here, half of them are into actually keto and low carb. They're the only people in my family that do like low carb. Not full keto, but low-carb paleo, really big into paleo, low carb. And so, they totally appreciate having a gluten free, sugar free cake. The other half are not at all, but they all enjoyed it. Everyone thought the cake was delicious. I know they weren't just saying it like they all really enjoyed it. So, it's fun when you can make stuff that's healthy. This cool thing about the sprinkles, they were sugar free. And instead of having all these dyes in it, they colored the sprinkles with turmeric, with, I think, a couple of other-- [crosstalk] 

Melanie Avalon: I've seen those sprinkles. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it was like turmeric, paprika, and something else. And so, they were really colorful, but they weren't neon like bright neon because of using artificial dyes. So, even if you're not doing keto or sugar free, if you're serving something to your kids, you want it to have all natural ingredients. So, it's fun that we could all enjoy something like a healthy-ish treat. Yeah, it was really fun to make, and everyone really enjoyed it. 

Melanie Avalon: I think you can actually-- because I have gone down the sprinkle rabbit hole. 

Vanessa Spina: That's why I was sending you pictures. I was like, "I know she loves sprinkles too."

Melanie Avalon: I've actually ordered, I think, the same ones that you have. I recognize them. I was like, "Oh, I have those sprinkles." I've seen recipes though to make your own. I haven't done it. I know you can order dragon fruit powder, which is neon pink. You can order there's a blueberry powder that's like neon blue, like, think if you actually wanted to make it like neon. 

Vanessa Spina: That'd be fun. Yeah, and I know, I think is it [unintelligible [00:07:28] powder, is like bright pink, and it's vitamin C. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Oh, it's pink?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's bright pink. Pink, pink. Super pink. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. 

Vanessa Spina: That's what I thought they were going to use. So, when I saw turmeric and paprika, I was like, "Oh, wow, that's really interesting that they use that."

Melanie Avalon: Then chlorophyll is neon green. We should make a sprinkle line. 

Vanessa Spina: Totally. I actually have a friend from growing up who started a sprinkles company, and she sold it. Yeah, it was really cute. She had a really fun Instagram. Because of course, if you're doing an Instagram account for that, it would just be really fun of confetti and sparkles and all our favorite things. 

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. What flour did you use in the cake? We can put a link to the recipe in the show notes. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, I just used two flours, which is mostly almond flour, and then one part coconut flour, because coconut absorbs so well. It's really mainly just those two for the flours. And then there's butter and vanilla. It's very simple, but really delicious.

Melanie Avalon: Which sweetener did you use? 

Vanessa Spina: So, I wanted to try allulose. 

Melanie Avalon: I thought you might. Okay.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, we've been talking about it. So, I actually did a combination, because I wanted to test allulose for my protein powder, and just see how I liked it. I hadn't really tested it anything, I'm like, "This is a perfect test." So, for the cakes, I used mostly allulose and a little bit of monk fruit. And then for the icing, I used powdered erythritol, because I already had it in the powdered form, like the confectioner's form. Otherwise, if I was home, I would just put the granulated form of the allulose in the blender for 30 seconds, and it would make it into the super fine powder one for the icing, because you need the powdered one, I use that. The allulose was good. I think that everyone was surprised by how much it tasted like actual sugar, especially the people who don't eat keto or don't really like those kinds of sweeteners. At one point, even one of our guests was like, "You know, it's probably better to just use sugar or a little bit less sugar than artificial sweeteners." And I was like, "Wait till you try this one." So, I think it tasted very similar to sugar. 

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. I really feel like allulose is the big thing now and we'll continue to-- I don't think I've used it before, but just from everything that I read, people seem to say that it doesn't have weird funky aftertaste and tastes very similar to sugar. And then when we talked about it-- We can put a link in the show notes of the episode where we talked about it extensively, but the studies are really interesting on it. So, potential health benefits. 

Vanessa Spina: I think that's really interesting, the fact that it has potential health benefits as well. And also, I think the thing with Europe was that-- At first, I was like, "Oh, I think it's not allowed yet in Europe." When I was looking into it more, it seems that it's just because there hasn't been enough research done on it yet. But some German scientists recently submitted some research studies that they did about allulose. So, it's possible now that they'll have enough research done on it that they will approve it there. So, just side note for anyone who's in Europe listening. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome. Are you actively formulating your protein powder right now? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I actually just got the first sample today, like, an hour ago from Scott. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so exciting. 

Vanessa Spina: I know. He sent me the sample to test, and just make sure that we're on the right track with the first flavor, which is going to be vanilla. Pretty much after we're done podcasting, I'm going to make a protein shake and try it out. I smelled it and it smelled really good. So, it's got stevia in it, because that's what we've decided to use for now. It's vanilla flavored and it has this special formulation which is unlike anything else, anything else that exists on the market in terms of protein to really optimize it for building lean mass in the most efficient way possible. So, I'm really excited. It's really exciting to be making something that just doesn't exist really on the market yet. 

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you. That's so cool, because there are so many protein powders on the market. It's so true though that I haven't seen any-- because basically, you're tailoring which amino acids are in it, right? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, exactly. I'll be sharing more and more on the exact formulation in the coming weeks. But yeah, there is a lot of competition in the space, and I think that's why I've always been drawn more to biotech, because making something like the Tone, like the breath ketone analyzer, it's something super unique, whereas a market like protein powder is a lot more saturated until it became the right time, because I really figured out and zoned in on what kind of formulation would make it unique to anything else. That part's super exciting. 

Melanie Avalon: Not just unique for the sake of being unique, but unique because it's what needs to be done in a way. Nobody has done this and it's what you would want, presumably, to be using or will be using. I'm so excited for you. Okay, so how can people get on your email list for updates for it? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, thank you. So, I wanted to offer an amazing launch discount for anyone who is a part of this community or who listens over to the Optimal Protein podcast, and to offer the biggest discount that'll ever be offered on Tone Protein, and that is by signing up at toneprotein.com, you'll be added to the list. And if you sign up with your name and email address, you'll receive an email where you can double opt in, and you'll basically be the first to know when it's available to order, and you will also get that exclusive launch discount if you are interested in checking it out. So, yeah, hopefully, in the next couple of months, it'll be out and available to order. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. So exciting. 

Vanessa Spina: Scott and I were talking this morning about shipping products to Europe, because I'm setting up a warehouse there, and so that would potentially open it up to shipping other products at MD Logic to Europe too. So, yeah, [laughs] it could be exciting. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that would be so exciting.

Vanessa Spina: We're also talking about Australia, because Australia is a huge wellness market-- I have a warehouse set up there, so we could potentially start shipping out to new markets also for your supplements. 

Melanie Avalon: That would be exciting. Especially, with Australia, they are really hard to ship to. If I want to independently ship something to them, it's really hard with their customs and everything-

Vanessa Spina: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: -to get stuff in there, because I have tried. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, we will put links to all of that in the show notes. And again, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode327. So, we haven't talked since I went to the biohacking conference. 

Vanessa Spina: I know. Tell me everything. You've given me some updates, but obviously, we all want to know how it all went. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Oh, my goodness-- This was my first conference. It was my first conference in this sphere. As listeners know, unlike Vanessa, traveling is not my forte. So, I was a little bit stressed about the whole concept. But it was so amazing. I really, really highly recommend going to it next year. Next year, it's in Dallas, but it's basically-- So, next year will be the 10th annual biohacking conference. It's Dave Asprey's conference, whose side note will be coming on this show soon, hopefully. We're trying to lock him down. But it was really exciting, because it was the first time meeting all of these people I know through the podcast and including guests who have been on this show in real life. It was so weird. I got to meet Matt and Wade from BiOptimizers. They've been on the shows. I just feel like I know them. They've been on the shows, I think, five times total. So, I met them. 

I met Catharine Arnston with ENERGYbits. I met, oh, Dr. Patel. I did an episode on glutathione with him. Of course, I met Dave Asprey, which was a very surreal, mind-blowing experience because I've been following him. Basically, him and Robb Wolf are the two people that really informed my-- I'm going to start crying with gratitude. [laughs] My journey in this world. It's like when I interviewed Robb and I almost started crying. It's just really surreal to be so affected, so influenced by people for the better in health and wellness and everything that I'm doing today. And then to get to meet them in person is, I'm really grateful for that. Why am I crying? Okay, so, I really highly recommend people attend. And also, I actually sprained my ankle the first day. 

Vanessa Spina: Okay. I need to know what happened. This is the thing I wanted to ask you about, because you mentioned it and I was like, "What happened?"

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay. So, I went two days before it started. So, the night before, I was just walking back to my hotel, and I just stepped off of a curb, and I twisted it. Have you twisted ankle before or sprained an ankle? 

Vanessa Spina: I haven't, no.

Melanie Avalon: I haven't either. It's really bad. [laughs] It's funny, because it didn't hurt when it happened. I was fine, and I went to Whole Foods, and I was carrying gallons of water, and everything was fine. I was in high heels. And then I went to bed, and then I woke up in the middle of the night, and it was the worst pain I have ever felt. I had to crawl on hands and knees to the bathroom. And then I was really stressed, because it was, like I said, the night before the conference started, I was like, "What do I do? I can't go to the biohacking conference like this." I went back to bed. I went to urgent care the next day. It wasn't broken, it was just sprained. But this was interesting and this could be a whole tangent. 

I don’t ever-- Well, I don't want to say ever. I very rarely take pain medications. I try to stay away from pharmaceuticals as much as possible. And no judgment to pharmaceuticals, but they have a lot of side effects. So, I don't take pain medications is the point. I was in so much pain, and I was assuming they would prescribe me pain medications and they would not. They were like, "Not legally allowed to." I was just reflecting. And then I started crying in the urgent care. I was like, "But I'm in so much pain." So, opioids, because of everything that's happened historically in this country now, there's a lot of laws in place about prescribing them because of the opioid epidemic crisis that we've had. 

Vanessa Spina: So, some people could be faking an injury to get them. 

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I was just reflecting on the sad state of affairs with the pharmaceutical industry, and that A, the pain medication is being over prescribed in the first place, and all the problems with addiction, that's just such a problem and such an issue. But then when you actually are, like, you do need it, I couldn't get it. I was like, "Who can I call?" I called my dentist, [giggles] but he didn't answer. I called my psychologist friend, but he wasn't able to prescribe. But interestingly, I don't even normally take Advil. So, I took Advil and I had no pain. So, yeah, and I got crutches, and I learned a new skill of using crutches. 

Vanessa Spina: That's so crazy. This happened the night before the conference started? 

Melanie Avalon: I know. And then this was a huge step for me, personally. So, that whole day was basically gone. I was at urgent care, but I had to go get my media pass for the conference, and it closed at 05:00. So, I was like, "I'll just sneak in." I had no makeup on, I was in crutches, and I have a lot of insecurities surrounding my physical presentation. So, I was like, "I'll just sneak in, grab my media pass and leave." But of course, I was running into everybody. So, by that point, I was just like, "Okay, I'll just be here like this," which was a big step for me. My therapist is proud. [laughs] It's funny. Actually, the first listener that walked up to me recognized me like that and I was shocked. I was like, "You recognize me?" I don't look like my Instagram right now. 

Then just as a side note, I barely was at-- the whole first day was mostly lost, and I didn't go to everything that I could have. But even then, so many listeners came up to me, and it was so exciting, and it was so nice to connect with people, like listeners from this show in real life, and see how the content is resonating and how they're into this stuff now from listening to the show. So, friends, go next year. I will definitely be there in Dallas. And please come up to me. Oh, because multiple people told me they were nervous about coming up. Please come up to me and say hi, and we can be friends. I will have a discount code for the conference. I don't have it yet, but the link is melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference. So, you can go ahead and go there and see all the details about next year. Then once I have the code, I will share it. 

Yeah, and then just lastly though, I didn't even get to go to the-- I haven't talked to you about the content of it. So, there're so many speakers, including so many guests I've had on the show. So, speakers for my show like, Mercola was there, Max Lugavere, the BiOptimizers guys, of course, Dave Asprey, tons of people. And then there's this expo with all of these brands, like, hundred brands. They have their supplements, and their things, and there's stuff you can try. It's so cool. It's like going to a Disney World mall, but biohacking. Highly recommend. Well, next year, any chance we'll be in Dallas? 

Vanessa Spina: Who knows? Yeah, maybe at that point, it would be so much fun. Just hearing you talk about it, it reminds me so much of the fun that I would have at KetoCon, when I went there-- It was just so amazing, like you said, to get to meet so many people in person or when I went on my book tour, just people showing up for you and wanting to meet you in person is just really it's just so humbling. Like, you really want to come meet me. It's just such an amazing feeling, and just getting to hug people and take photos together and talk about what it is, like you said, that resonated with them. That's what makes all of this so meaningful and special and worthwhile that we get to do what we love. We get to podcast and also share information in different platforms. But it's also that it's so meaningful because people will come up to you and be like, "You inspired me to start a podcast or to start this or to change my approach to protein or change my fasting or whatever, and it did this for me and I feel so good." And you're like, "Oh, my gosh." I just wanted to share what made me happy and feel good, but then you get so excited when you genuinely hear from people that it impacted them in some way too. It just makes it all so worthwhile. 

Melanie Avalon: It is so true. Yeah, I think next year, maybe I'll try to organize a meet up or something for-- 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that would be so fun. 

Melanie Avalon: For the listeners, that would be really, really fun. 

Vanessa Spina: That's such a great idea. Didn't Gin do some cruise or something? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they did like a Delay, Don't Deny cruise. I don't know how many times they did it. They did it at least once. So, it's awesome. And then just one really quick. I know, it's a long intro, but one really quick announcement. I am getting closer and closer to releasing my EMF blocking product line today. Hopefully, I think I got the final packaging. I love designing packaging. Do you like designing packaging?

Vanessa Spina: The absolute favorite part of the process for me. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: It is so fun. I have to send you what I'm designing right now because it's so beautiful. So, the IARC, which is the International Agency for Research on Cancer, they classify EMFs as group 2B, which means possibly carcinogenic to humans. So, basically, there's ample evidence to suggest that EMFs are quite likely carcinogenic to humans. And we see this in a lot of studies, they basically affect the calcium channels in our cells. I just think it's a major issue with all of our Bluetooth and our wi-fi and friends, I shudder when I see people putting their phones up to their ears. Don't do that. There's a lot of interesting studies on men having phones in their pockets and how it affects sperm quality. And also, the potential for women keeping phones in their bras, for example, and how it might affect breast cancer. 

So, in any case, I am creating a line of EMF-free/EMF-blocking products. I am partnering with R Blank, who has been on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, the brand is going to be AvalonX, powered by SYB. His brand is Shield Your Body. So, there's a lot of things I want to make, but we are launching with air tubes, headphones. So, again, when it comes to your phone, friends, please, please don't use Bluetooth AirPods. Please, I'm begging you. Speakerphone is great and corded earphones like you might get from Apple. But even those, release some EMF. So, that's why we're launching with EMF-free air tubes, and they're going to come in pink and black. I'm really excited about it. So, you can get on my email list to get all of the launch specials, all the details, the announcements, for right now, I have it at melanievalon.com/emfemaillist. I do have a website for it, but I haven't set it up yet. So, I think that's all the things. Should we jump into some questions for today? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would absolutely love to. Oh, and we have new artwork. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. [laughs] Happy new artwork day. 

Vanessa Spina: Yay. I've been waiting and so excited for this. 

Melanie Avalon: We have been working on this for months, listeners. The attention to detail is a little bit intense. We kept getting drafts back and I'd be like, "I think the heel needs to be adjusted to properly represent our heights.' Our artist, Barbara, was amazing in all the adjustments because we asked for a lot of them. I think it looks really amazing. What do you think? 

Vanessa Spina: I absolutely love it, and I love that you hired an actual artist to do it, because I always found the artwork on the podcast to be really interesting and unique. I can see why now, because you were working with an actual print artist, and she was painting this. I think it's important for people to know she wasn't just creating a caricature or something in paint. This is legit. She was painting this. And then when she had to do revisions, she would put these overlays on top. That's why it took so long. It wasn't just because we were being specific, but also because it's like real art. It's just incredible. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's like actual art. [giggles] Actual. Yeah, and I told you about how I know her, right? Did I tell you? 

Vanessa Spina: No. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. So, when I published my book in stores, the original concept, they hired her for the original concept art. So, my Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, that logo, that was the original book cover for my book. I loved it. I was obsessed with it. And then we were actually going to go with it, and then when Barnes & Noble signed on the book for one of their features, Barnes & Noble was like, "You have to change the cover." Isn't that interesting? So, we changed the cover, which I love the cover. Now I do. But I was so sad. I asked them, I was like, "Can I just buy the artwork from her because I want it for myself?" And then that's when I started working with her. So, she did the artwork. Actually, originally for my biohacking podcast, I used to get art done for each episode for the guest. So, she did that. She did Cynthia and I's artwork, and then she did you and me. 

Vanessa Spina: It's really amazing. Yeah, I'm really happy with how it turned out. That funny story for listeners, Melanie knows this, but I was just looking over the artwork one night. I think it was a month ago or something like that. And my husband, Pete, walked in, and he didn't know what I was doing or anything, and he glanced over at my phone, and he was like, "Oh, look, it's you." And I was like, "Do you really think it's me?" And he's like, "Yeah, it's you." And I'm like, "That's amazing." He had no idea what it was, or I could have just been looking at like a cartoon or a different podcast or anything, but he right away recognized it. So, this artist, last thing I'll say on it is, she took multiple photos of both of us, and then created the art based on our likeness from these actual photographs. So, I just thought it was so cool that he walked in and said that. My husband's very direct. He never says anything he doesn't mean. So, I was like, "Wow, that's so neat that you really think so." 

Melanie Avalon: I love that story. That makes me so happy. So, awesome. 

Vanessa Spina: All right, enough, enough.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] Okay. So, would you like to read the first question? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, our first question is from Kimberly and the question comes to us on Facebook. And the question is, "What is the difference between OMAD or one meal a day and binge eating? My doctor seems to think that these are synonymous and I can't disagree more." 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I am very excited about this question. And before that, like Vanessa said, this was from Facebook. So, you can submit questions to the show to questions@ifppodcast.com or on Ifpodcast.com. I also am going to start asking for questions more in Facebook, because when I did that, we got so many questions. Vanessa and I were talking about it, it feels very fresh getting them right away. So, definitely join my Facebook group, IF Biohackers. I'm going to start asking more for questions in there, so that if you want to get your question put to the front of the line, that might be a good way to make that possibly happen. So, okay, I'm really excited to talk about this because I think there is and I'll be curious your thoughts on this, Vanessa. I just feel like there's so much with intermittent fasting. There's a lot of skepticism and confusion as far as the mindset behind it and people thinking that it is disordered eating. So, I actually really wanted to go look at the DSM criteria for binge eating. We can just go through it and we can see, is it binge eating? And then I went down the rabbit hole after doing that because it's very interesting to me. So, shall we go through the criteria together? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, that sounds perfect. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, in order to qualify as binge eating disorder-- Oh, and a little bit of a backstory. So, binge eating was actually recognized as a clinical condition as early as 1959, but it did not appear in the DSM until May 2013. So, that's when they came up with this criteria. There are five criterion, I learned a new word, that must be met. So, the first one is there has to be recurrent episodes of binge eating. In order to qualify as binge eating, it has to be two things. One, it has to be eating in a discrete period of time. For example, within any two-hour period. An amount of food that is definitely larger than most people would eat in a similar period of time under similar circumstances. Okay, I want to zone in on that. But the number two is the sense of lack of control overeating during the episode. For example, a feeling that one cannot stop eating, or control what or how much one is eating. 

Then I found this really interesting review of this. It was looking at the criteria, what does it mean? What can we learn from it? Should it be updated? That article is a journal article and it's called Characteristics of binge eating disorder in relation to diagnostic criteria. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. It was actually calling out some of the issues with this first statement, which is, it's very subjective. So, it basically says, an amount of food that is definitely larger than most people would eat in a similar period of time under similar circumstances. That is not very definitive, even though it has the word definitely in it. So, when we look at fasting-- And she was asking about one meal a day, right, specifically?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, the difference between one meal a day and binge eating. 

Melanie Avalon: And binge eating. Okay, with one meal a day, what do you think most, like, time wise, most people are eating in? That would actually be a really good poll to do. Do you think it's like two hours, three hours, four hours?

Vanessa Spina: For the intermittent fasting like one meal a day.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: From personal experience, when I would do one meal a day, it would usually be like a standard meal within an hour. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. So, you would have an entire-- Yeah, I think some people do it like they do have an entire meal in a short amount of time. For me, this goes back to the great one meal a day debate that Gin and I used to have, because I eat over four hours or five hours. It's a very long one meal a day. But let's say two hours, for example, especially since that's the criteria that they give. So, you could look at this two ways. You could say, people doing one meal a day in two hours that they are eating larger than what most people would eat in a similar period of time under similar circumstances. Okay. I think if you stopped at a similar period of time, that would be true for a lot of people because when you're doing one meal a day, you're getting your entire amount's worth of calories in this small meal, which would be more than most people. But I think the key here is under similar circumstances. So, if we take into account that the circumstances are one meal a day, as practiced for intermittent fasting, where you need to get all of your calories in that one meal, then I think most people doing one meal a day, they're not eating a lot larger than people would eat in a similar period of time under similar circumstances, because the circumstances are one meal a day. How do you feel about that? 

Vanessa Spina: For me, I would say the thing that stands out for me is not so much the period of time, if we can maybe go in a different direction with it a little bit, just in terms of my thoughts. For me, when I looked up the definition, it said that person feels a lack of control when they're having that meal. I think that is a big distinction. There's lots of distinctions between one meal a day, which to me is just a definition, like, eating one meal a day versus binging, which is associated with having an eating disorder or associated with disordered eating and feeling like there's no control. It's like a primal or like and. I know you've done episodes with experts on binge eating. I think I did one on my podcast years ago. But I know you had an author on-- [crosstalk]

Melanie Avalon: With Glen?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait. Okay, so fun fact. So, Glen is one of my best friends in the entire world. He's one of the people I called when I was in the urgent care. He's the psychologist. I called Glen. I was like, "Glen, can you prescribe me pain medications?" [laughs] Yeah, for listeners, he wrote a book-- Well, multiple books. He wrote Never Binge Again, which I highly recommend it, not even just if you identify as binge eating, it's really about just that lack of control and feeling like you don't have control around your eating, and that you're not when you are feeling controlled by your eating. It's really amazing. His whole philosophy uses this thing called the pig and you identify this voice in your head as not you, as this pig, and you talk to your pig and you just basically say no. It sounds really simple to say that you just don't, but you basically are just like, "No, I'm not listening to you right now." Sorry, that was a tangent. Yes. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, for me, the period of time seems, I don't know, ambiguous. For me, it was the fact that it is in the definition of what binge eating is. And forgive me, because I don't know a lot about it, but just looking at the definition that it is eating with a sense of not having any control. I think that that's the big difference that stands out for me the most, and also, obviously, the association with having disordered eating. I think to just to classify one meal a day and the definition of that as how people who do intermittent fasting approach it and just say, "Well, there's some overlap, so that means they're the same thing." It doesn't really hold up for me. The overlap being, like you said, the time period depending on how people do that, because it does seem to be part of that definition. 

Whenever I do like OMAD or one meal a day, especially since I changed my macros over the years and really healed my relationship with food, I always feel a sense of control because it's really hard to overeat protein. I have to invoke the protein leverage concept by Drs. Raubenheimer and Simpson, these scientists who studied insects and primates and humans on protein leverage, and they found that we, as humans and animals and insects as well, tend to overeat energy calories when we don't get our protein needs met. I think that when I look back at my younger self, when I maybe did have situations where say, I would do a really restricted diet, and then I would feel like I couldn't wait for the diet to be done. And then when the diet was done, I would over consume, maybe at a meal. Maybe that could be considered a binge feeling. At the time, maybe I didn't fully have control. And again, I don't know that much about it, but I'm just relating it back to my own experience. It was because I wasn't prioritizing protein. It was because I was doing vegetarian/vegan diet at the time, and I was super under muscled and not getting my protein needs met. 

That protein drive is so high that when I corrected my protein intake and started prioritizing it, I found actually the opposite happens where it's very hard to overeat protein because protein is so extremely satiating on multiple levels in terms of the hormones that are released in the gastrointestinal tract, in the brain or and that communicate with the brain, and just in terms of the overall satiety signaling that you get when you consume the right amount of protein. I've always felt totally in control of all my meals, whether it's OMAD or whether I'm eating three times a day or whether I'm on holiday at a buffet, I always feel like as long as I get the protein in that I feel satisfied and full. 

So, I think in terms of being classified as binge eating, it would need to be assessed by a professional if that's something that someone is experiencing, maybe something in this definition resonates, to have it professionally diagnosed or professionally assessed. Because I think disordered eating is very serious and is something that definitely needs to be addressed if it's a problem because it can cause a lot of distress for people. But that's the key part that stands out for me is the fact that there's a lack of control. I think that probably characterizes it the most stories that I've heard from people experiencing that kind of sensation of like they just can't feel satiated. It's like this feeling of being a bottomless pit where just no amount is enough kind of thing. So, that's what stands out for me the most. 

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more, so that second criteria B for criteria one, which is the sense of lack of control overeating during the episode, feeling that one cannot stop eating or control what or how much one is eating. I echo back everything that you were saying. There's such a different feeling between feeling this need to just keep eating. And sometimes, it's satiety. I know people have all different experiences of it, but I think for a lot of people, it's like the dopamine hit that you keep getting. Some people might even feel full, but they just have to keep eating, and they feel like they have no control over compared to when people are in a one meal a day pattern, intermittent fasting, getting the protein they need, getting the nutrients they need, and it's working for them and their body. I think a lot of people feel completely in control. 

I do just love that nuance of the first one about eating larger than most people would in a similar period of time under similar circumstances. That definition is assuming that you're comparing a one-meal-a -day situation to a normal dinner, which would not be the same circumstance. [giggles] You would need to compare like a one meal a day to a one meal a day and are you eating definitely larger than other one meal a dayers? I guess, that's the way that it would be looked at. 

Vanessa Spina: It's a really good point. It's a really good point, the context of it. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's criteria one. Criteria two is binge-eating episodes. You have to have three or more of five different things, so it's eating much more rapidly than normal. So, I guess you can look at yourself when you're eating that. Two, eating until feeling uncomfortably full. This will be really interesting polling information to see if most people who do one meal a day if they feel uncomfortably full or not. I don't when I do my one meal a day. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, me neither. 

Melanie Avalon: I feel satisfied. C, eating large amounts of food when not feeling physically hungry. Oh, I'm always hungry for my [laughs] one meal a day. Eating alone because of being embarrassed by how much one is eating. So, interestingly, I do get embarrassed by-- Still all of these years later, I do get embarrassed by the idea or how much I'm eating. I guess, it depends on the context. But even when I go to dinners though, I'll sometimes get double entrees, which is fine. 

Vanessa Spina: I feel like sometimes, I have the issue, which is like, I'm such a slow eater because I like to chew everything a lot. [giggles] It really helps with digestion. I'm a really slow eater, and sometimes I'll feel subconscious, because I feel like everyone around me eats fast. And then I'm especially right now, we're visiting families of lots of experiences, eating with lots of groups of people, and I feel like everyone has done really fast, and I'm just slowly [giggles] making my way through chewing everything. I'm like, "I'm still eating like that." Sometimes, I get subconscious about that. But yeah, if anything, I'm the opposite. [laughs] I'm eating at a slower rate than everyone else. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm the same. We would do so well together at a restaurant. And then I told you I'll get sashimi dessert, like, savory desserts at restaurants. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, same. 

Melanie Avalon: So, you do do that?

Vanessa Spina: In Europe, they have a lot of cheese for dessert. So, that's always a great option like a nice-- if you still feel like having something. Or sometimes if we're at a restaurant, I'll just be like-- Last night, Pete and I had a date night, and they had all these desserts on the menu. I was like, "I'll just have dessert when I get home." So, I usually make some yogurt dessert for myself when I get home or I'll have like a piece or two of LILY'S dark chocolate or something like that. And that definitely makes it feel like I'm still getting some kind of sweet, finish to the meal, which is always nice. But yeah, if I'm at the restaurant and everyone else is getting dessert, I think it's nice to still participate in that. And so, if there is something savory, that's always what I'll get as well. 

Melanie Avalon: So, I remember my last birthday dinner that I went to with my family. Everybody ordered dessert, and I literally ordered another entree for dessert. I had more fish. It was so exciting because it was the other entree I wanted to try. 

Vanessa Spina: That's really smart. I'm actually going to bookmark that mentally to do sometimes. 

Melanie Avalon: But then as a note, and I think I've said this before, but let the kitchen know ahead of time because they usually can't make a-- It's hard for them to make another entree. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you would need to do that. 

Melanie Avalon: Give them a heads up. And then the last criteria is feeling disgusted with oneself, depressed or guilty after overeating. I think that goes into what we were talking about earlier about the mindset, and the control, and how you're feeling surrounding the food. So, you have to meet both the first two criteria of the first thing we talked about, and you have to meet three of those.

Vanessa Spina: So, that's the time eating it. 

Melanie Avalon: So, for criteria one, you have to have both these things. One, the discrete period of time, eating more than most people would eat in the same circumstances in the same amount of time. And you have to have a lack of control overeating while doing so. So, you have to have both of those. Then you have to have three of these five things, eating more rapidly than normal, eating until feeling uncomfortably full, eating large amounts of food when not hungry, eating alone because of being embarrassed by how much you're eating, and feeling disgusted with oneself depressed or very guilty. You have to have three of those. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, if you, at first glance, maybe are someone who's just hearing about the concept of one meal a day, maybe for the first time or something like that, I could see how maybe you might go like, "Oh, how does that compare to this," which is like you were saying, "How does this compare with this other concept of binge eating?" I think especially when people hear like, "Oh, well, you're only eating once a day," someone might jump to conclusions that it could be similar, whereas when you really look at everything in terms of the definitions. When I see the comparison, my mind goes like, "What?" [giggles] Because I know that intermittent fasting is a pattern of eating, and we're really well informed on what that means. But then you could see how someone might jump to conclusions if they don't have all the information. So, I love that you really looked at all the different aspects of what characterizes that kind of style of binge eating. Especially for Kimberly to be able to do the research herself and maybe talk to her doctor about it if she wants to and just say, "Well, this is actually what OMAD is, this is actually what binge eating is, and this is how they're different." Like, this is how they're not the same. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. And there's actually going to be a twist ending to this because we're not even done yet. 

Vanessa Spina: Ooh, I love a twist. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. Okay, so, criteria number three. So, we're not even done yet. You have to have those two. Criteria number three, you have to have marked distress regarding binge eating. So, you have to be distressed about the whole concept. Number four, it has to occur, on average, at least two days a week for six months, or one day a week for three months, which if people are doing one meal a day. That's probably the one criteria out of all of this that people are meeting. 

Vanessa Spina: See, now, I actually think it's a bit irresponsible of a care provider to just casually throw it out there. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Sorry. I'm getting so excited. I know.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Based on everything that you presented, it's saying like, "Oh, maybe that person's bipolar because they cut you off in traffic." It's such a leap and it could cause a patient, like, Kimberly distress in terms of something that makes no sense at all to what she's actually doing and that it should actually-- I was saying earlier, it should actually be diagnosed and assessed by an expert who knows the DSM-5, who knows these categorizations who would sit down with you and say, "Well, look, obviously that's not what this is." So, don't stress yourself out about it. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad you said that. I think that's why I got so into this, because I started reading it and I was like, "Oh, there needs to be education surrounding this." I think we just so casually throw around labels today, like, labeling people with disorders, and it doesn't speak to the whole person, and I think it can be very damaging. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it almost feels sometimes like a lot of terms from therapy have made their way into our language in a new way, where people use terms that typically would have just been reserved for people who are experts or clinicians or psychiatrists. Now people are just using these terms very casually, and I think it does have a harmful effect when someone throws up. I hear all the time, people say, "Well, that's gaslighting, that's narcissism." These terms have actual definitions to them. They need to be diagnosed by a professional and to just casually throw them around. I think, yeah, it can cause damage. 

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more. I'm actually prepping right now to interview-- Have you interviewed Dr. Caroline Leaf?

Vanessa Spina: No, but I feel like I heard of her book maybe. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, she has so many books. She's incredible. She's a cognitive neuroscientist, and her new book coming out is called How to Help Your Child Clean Up Their Mental Mess. It's really wonderful. But she actually has a chapter on the over diagnosis of ADHD. The stats on it are shocking. I wish I had them in front of me, but basically, there's only really small percentage that we think probably actually do have ADHD, but the percentages that are diagnosed are so high. She also talks about how the DSM criteria is determined, especially for something like ADHD. There's not really a lot of science behind it. It's very subjective. So, yeah, that's a tangent. Are you ready for the twist ending? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: So, criteria number five, the binge eating is not associated, not associated with the regular use of inappropriate compensatory behavior, such as purging, fasting, excessive exercise, and does not occur exclusively during the course of anorexia nervosa or bulimia nervosa. The caveat is that they're calling it inappropriate, so maybe it doesn't exactly relate. But basically, if you're fasting, it's not binge eating. If you're considering the fasting inappropriate, which we could argue that fasting is part of your daily lifestyle, so maybe this criteria would fit. But my takeaway, so, if you're making the case that one meal a day is disordered eating in its approach and it's binging, then you would be assuming probably that the fasting is an appropriate compensatory behavior as well. I think you would make that association if you're making that assumption about the binge eating, which means it's not binge eating, it's actually bulimia, which is a whole another set of criteria. Isn't that interesting? 

Vanessa Spina: Wow. Yeah, I didn't think about that aspect at all. 

Melanie Avalon: The only way it would still be binge eating would be, if you think the binging is inappropriate, but the fasting is appropriate. So, if you saw it that way, you're like, "Oh, the fasting is fine, but they're binging," then you could say it's binging. But if you're saying, they're binging and the fasting is compensating for that, it's not binging. It would be bulimia. Probably bulimia, because bulimia actually requires additional criteria. Isn't that crazy? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, there's just so much to learn. I don't know a lot about disordered eating, and I'm learning a lot from this episode. I think it's interesting that, yeah, they definitely have different definitions and classifications. I just think that going back again to people throwing terms around too loosely or easily casually, I see that all the time with any kind of approach that I consider to be healthy lifestyle approach or intervention. With keto, it's like ketoacidosis, which has absolutely nothing to do with ketogenesis, but because ketosis is a shortened term for ketogenesis and sounds like ketoacidosis, which is a condition that only type 1 diabetics experience for the most part when they're having massive dehydration issues, and extremely high uncontrolled ketones, and extremely high blood glucose. 

Several years ago, although thankfully, it's changed now through education, which you were talking about the importance of education. Thankfully, people now recognize, especially physicians that those are two separate things. I love physicians. Some of my best friends are physicians. So many of my friends are doctors, and I respect and admire them so much. But there was a time maybe like six years, seven years ago where a lot of physicians would just say, "Oh, keto, don't do that. That's ketoacidosis. That's the lack of education and understanding that there was." So, that's what it reminds me of a little bit is just like, "Oh, fasting or intermittent fasting, that's an eating disorder." These kinds of things are thrown around really casually without actually looking at what the definitions of each are. Again, it's really important that we educate everyone on what these things actually mean and the distinctions between them. 

Melanie Avalon: I think that's a brilliant analogy, and so true. That's bothered me as well so much. It's so frustrating, especially when you see it happen and you're just like, "Oh my goodness." And it's less now. Like you said, it used to be a little bit worse. It still happens. So, people are curious. For bulimia, it's pretty similar. You have to have recurrent episodes of binge eating just by the first two criteria that we talked about, so the discrete period of time and the lack of control. And then you have to have compensatory behavior that's inappropriate. So, that's where the fasting comes in, but vomiting, laxatives, diuretics, exercise. And then has to occur on average at least once a week for three months. And then here's the big criteria that's different for bulimia versus binge eating, or one of them is you have to be unduly influenced by body shape and weight. It also cannot occur while--

So, the binging and purging cannot happen if you have anorexia. So, it's really, like you said, and I sound like a broken record, but I really do think it's irresponsible for people, especially doctors, to throw around these labels without looking at what the actual criteria is. And then I'll just throw on just some very last quick other things that go beyond the DSM for binge eating. So, interestingly, so there's actually studies that indicate that binge eating is probably heritable. So, it clusters in families independent of obesity, and families with a history of binge eating are at a greater risk of obesity. I don't think we would say that one meal a day is heritable. [laughs] I think people make the decision to do it independent of their genetics or their family history. 

Then binge eating is highly associated with psychiatric and medical comorbidities, functional disability, and impaired quality of life. So, when people engage in this behavior, it really negatively can affect their life. They've even done studies where it affected all criteria for negative quality of life. Compared to fasting, I feel like people do one meal a day and it changes their life for the better. That's a big difference there. 

Vanessa Spina: Megan Ramos and I just had a really interesting discussion on my most recent interview with her on the Optimal Protein podcast, because she just came out with her new book all about intermittent fasting for women. That was one of the topics that we really talked about was like, what is the messaging that you want to get out there with your work and your book? It's basically that women get such bad messaging about how we're all doomed to basically just get uglier and fatter as we get older. And she's like, "No, you can be empowered. You can control your metabolic health and your waistline. There are tools out there that you can use." These tools are not the same thing as having problematic or disordered eating patterns. They're not the same thing. It's weird that they're often lumped together, because there's some maybe association with the word, fasting. But she really helps clarify in her book. I highly recommend her book as a resource for anyone who's interested in that. 

But I also highly recommend that anyone who listening to the definitions and the criteria that you presented so eloquently, if any of those really resonated for you know, I would definitely recommend speaking to a clinician, someone who can assess you, especially if you're feeling distressed, because that was one of the criteria. If any of this resonates with you, if it feels familiar to you, if you think you may be experiencing some of it, and you are feeling distressed, definitely seek professional help because eating disorders are very serious things. I think that it's very important to reach out either to a friend or to someone who can give you a professional assessment if it's something that is causing you any kind of distress. I think that's definitely something that we both want to underline. 

Melanie Avalon: I am so, so glad you ended with that. Yes, the purpose with this was twofold. One, to dismantle some of the myths about labeling people who are doing fasting in a healthy way for themselves mentally and physically, putting some clarity that that is not binge eating for them. But then on the flipside, people who are experiencing these issues with eating disorders or binge eating, and might be hiding that with fasting or fasting might be exacerbating that, hopefully, this is helpful for them to find a mental health practitioner to work with for that. So, awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. 

A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifppodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there, or join our Facebook group or my Facebook group which is IF Biohackers. I'm going to start asking more for questions in that group. So, look for the posts about that. You can just post questions in that group as well if you like. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode327. We talked about a lot of things, so there will be lots of links, and there will be a full transcript, which I know is very helpful. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go? 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I really enjoyed the question from Kimberly, and the whole episode, and getting to catch up with you, and I'm excited to record the next one with you. 

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I will talk to you next week. 

Vanessa Spina: Okay, talk to you soon. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Vanessa Spina: Bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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