Welcome to Episode 370 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
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SHOW NOTES
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MD LOGIC: Try MD Logic's Colostrum and discover the benefits of one of nature's most powerful superfoods. Save 15% off with code IFCOLOSTRUM at mdlogichealth.com.
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Listener Q&A: Emily - Is it ok to do intense strength training in the morning and then continue to fast until like 3pm?
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Listener Q&A: Hillary - How do you feel about IF and women’s hormones, vs doing a more circadian rhythm of eating?
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TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 370 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 370 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I am very well. How are you? I'm good. I had a great interview yesterday with Dr. Mindy Peltz all about the fasting stuff, so that was fun. And you said you have not interviewed her, correct?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I haven't. I don't really follow her work too much.
Melanie Avalon:
She wrote fast like a girl, which I feel like it became pretty mainstream with intermittent fasting. Like she was on all the shows and stuff, but it was a really good conversation and I learned quite a few nuggets I had never heard about intermittent fasting before. Although she has a very interesting perspective on protein, which is she actually thinks people should follow a lower protein intake. So she's probably one of the first people I've interviewed more tangential to our sphere. So like in the keto sphere, the fasting sphere. So not like the vegan side of things and not like the Balter Longo, you know, longevity world, but like this camp who is lower protein intake. So I thought that was really interesting.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. So you were saying she thinks that if people eat more than 75 grams of protein a day, they can gain weight or she sees that sometimes. Yes.
Melanie Avalon:
And so she said she finds with some of her clients that if they add protein as a macronutrient, it makes them gain weight. And in the book, she was saying it's because it's turning to glucose and it's not keeping their blood sugar levels low enough. And then on the podcast, she was giving examples of patients and she did make it very clear that it's very individual and this is not the case for everybody. But she did say she's had patients where they had really, really tightly controlled diets and she would add protein and that would make them gain weight. And then she said she did another interview because she has a podcast and the person was saying that some people have certain gut bacteria that more preferentially turn protein into glucose.
Vanessa Spina:
I'm a little concerned with the concept of like eating more than 75 grams of protein per day, making people gain weight, especially when using the term weight. I don't know if she was using that in the book or in the interview, but generally they're saying like they're implying gaining fat. When people say they're gaining weight, they're not usually saying like, oh no, I'm gaining muscle. They're usually referring to gaining fat. So usually if you do gain weight, or at least your weight isn't going down because you're eating more than 75 grams of protein, it's because you're either gaining lean mass or maintaining lean mass, in my opinion, or having stronger bones. I mean, that's interesting, the part about the gut microbiome and everything, but I usually, I mean, from all the research I've looked at, actually Dr. Jose Antonio, I'm about to have back on the podcast. He did some of the most well -known studies on eating more protein, actually making people lose more fat when they were even over -consuming protein in certain studies where they like really went over what you would think would even be reasonable and people were losing more fat in every study that they did. So usually when you eat more protein, you're losing more fat or you're maintaining muscle or you're gaining muscle. So I find the statement of like eating more than 75 grams of protein per day, making people gain weight and implying potentially gaining fat, like that doesn't really, I'm not really sure how that would happen, but...
Melanie Avalon:
It's really interesting because like you just said, I've just read so many studies about adding protein and I just, it's everything that you just said. Like normally there's, if there's weight gain, it's in the form of muscle. Typically it helps with satiety, supportive of metabolism. And then just 75 grams seems really low. It makes me wonder almost, but although I asked her this, but it makes me wonder if people are, if protein is almost a proxy for just adding food. Like people are trying to add protein, but really they're adding like not just pure protein. Maybe they're adding protein and a lot of fat, like a high calorie addition.
Vanessa Spina:
a good point because a lot of times protein does come with fat in it. It doesn't usually come with carbs, but it does come with fat in it. If you're eating animal protein, unless you're adding it, you know, just in the form of like pure whey protein isolate or pure like protein bread, which is just egg whites, or you're just adding egg whites or whatever, or zero fat yogurt. But usually that's in people who are a little more advanced when it comes to their protein, optimizing protein intake. So a lot of people when they just add protein, I guess they could be adding protein plus some fat. So maybe that's why it's a good point that could be happening. But the justification of the higher protein raising blood sugar and making people gain weight, I don't like that. I don't like that argument, or I don't like that stance because I don't think it's correct.
Melanie Avalon:
What's really interesting and so two things to that. I did go through a period of time where I was Eating a really I was basically just eating protein Like for a long time and when I did that I did have higher resting blood sugar levels Which is I find really interesting and then when I switched to a high Protein but like a high carb approach as well. So I was eating less protein I kind of basically like switched out the protein and added in tons of fruit that made my blood sugar levels go down which I thought was Really really interesting regardless of like that baseline blood sugar level. I Don't necessarily know that that was leading to weight gain per se
Vanessa Spina:
Right. And I was going to say a lot of people do see that and they automatically think that the higher blood sugar is the protein being turned into blood sugar, but that's often not what's happening. I've done a few podcasts with Dr. Don Lehman about this and he sort of explains like you also get higher morning blood sugar, whereas you wake up with a lower blood sugar if you're doing high carb and it just has to do with the body's storage and what's happening with glycogen and the liver, but it's not the protein being turned into the high blood sugar, which a lot of people believe for a long time, especially in the keto space, especially because of certain individuals that we won't speak of who basically said that like eating protein was essentially the same as eating chocolate cake because if you ate a lot of it, it would turn into glucose. And that's because they were seeing... Wait, somebody said that? Yeah, someone who will remain nameless popularized that concept in the keto space and it made a lot of people fear protein. And a lot of those people still fear eating higher protein to this day. And I was one of those people until I really delved into the science and started understanding it on a much deeper level and like learn biochemistry and learn how to interpret the stuff myself. When I couldn't do that for myself, I just believed what I heard from someone I thought was knowledgeable in the space. But yeah, it was this whole protein turns to chocolate cake and people just thought they had this higher resting blood sugar. It meant that it was the protein, but there's a lot of different factors why that's happening, but it's not as simple as like the protein is just turning into sugar and it's giving you higher blood sugar. But yeah, it's one of those old myths that just won't die. But I think there's still a lot of people who believe it. And so it's one of those things that grinds on me when I hear it.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, well, actually also to that point, I also interviewed last week, Dr. Molly Maloof. She wrote a book called The Spark Factor. Yeah, it was a really, really good interview. I really enjoyed it. But she, I remember she said in her book, because I was revisiting the notes, because that's funny, I read her book, like, I think over a year ago, we just kept rescheduling, but she talks in her book about how the blood work of her patients, how people on low -carb, she talked about, like, trends she sees and how, yes, people on low -carb diets tend to have higher fasting blood sugar levels. You know, people on the vegan diets tend to have what seems like, you know, more preferable cholesterol panels. But she was saying that none of this is necessarily super good or super bad. It kind of just is what it is. Like, those are the trends that she sees. So I thought that was interesting. Speaking of all of this, and this actually relates to a question that we have. Did you listen to the episode 299? I pulled it up. It's a recent episode on Peter Tia's podcast with Luke Van Loon. I didn't, I didn't yet. Oh, my goodness. It's like the Vanessa episode. It is the Vanessa episode. Okay, so it's called the title is optimizing muscle protein synthesis, the crucial impact of protein quality and quantity and the key role of resistance training.
Vanessa Spina:
That's funny. I put that in my queue to listen to sometime this week. So good.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, awesome. It's a guy who basically, for fun, like for his job, he studies the metabolism of amino acids. Oh, wow. They said that in the beginning, I was like, I am in for a fun time. Like, so I'll talk about some of the stuff he said with a question that we have later. But yeah, one other last fun fact that I learned from Dr. Peltz. And again, really, so out of our whole conversation, that was the only thing that I did not, I really like did not agree with, but I really love people having different opinions and perspectives. I just think it's really healthy, even if I don't agree. But she talked about in her book and on the show that fasting, I hadn't heard about this before. There's something called microbial geography. And it's basically that the gut bacteria physically like have geography in your gut. And when you fast, they move away from the lining of the intestine. And it helps with like healing and the release of stem cells. And I thought that was super cool. I never heard that before. So fasting for the win.
Vanessa Spina:
I love when you interview someone and you learn something totally new or have some major insight or mind -blowing moment. It's such a... It's like, I feel like every interview is like mining gems, you know? And then you find them, you're like, I have a gem. Thank you.
Melanie Avalon:
That's how I feel, we feel the same. And I always preface it that way too when I bring up the gym to the person. I'm like, I'd say what you just say. I'm like, I love it when I find this fat, especially cause you and I are so saturated in this world. So we, it's a lot of the same stuff over and over, which is great cause we learn a lot. But when you find that thing you've like never heard before, it's very exciting.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I love that. And yes, saturated is a really good word for it.
Melanie Avalon:
all the saturation that was some fasting stuff what's new in your life we're going to
Vanessa Spina:
a dino park tomorrow. All my friends here, all my mom friends and their husbands and their kids and most of our friends here both have two little boys and two of my mom friends have a girl and a boy but one of them is really good friends. With Luca, they're all the same age and they're all super excited. There's a brand new dinosaur park that opened. We had a barbecue at our place on Saturday. It was the first barbecue of the season because we're getting really nice summer weather and it was super fun to have everyone over at our place and to host. It is crazy when we have all of us together because there's like six moms and then so six moms plus six husbands plus two kids each. So we're like 24 whenever we get together and it just keeps growing because we all keep having kids. So when we're all together, it's just a cacophony of sound. I was yelling pretty much the whole afternoon because there's just so much sound happening with all the kids playing together and running around and crazy but it's all joyful sounds, joyful fun. But anyway, we plan to go to this dinosaur park tomorrow and I'm really excited and I'm trying to get Luca pumped about dinosaurs because he hasn't really discovered them yet. We watched The Land Before Time which is like, do you know that movie?
Melanie Avalon:
So, here's a funny story. I don't know why, but for whatever reason, we didn't have the Lamb Before Time. We had the Lamb Before Time 2. Oh, is that a good one? Yes. It's the entire experience of the Lamb Before Time for me. And because that's all we had, I thought that was it. I thought it was the Lamb Before Time 2. I didn't realize there was a Lamb Before Time 1.
Vanessa Spina:
Now I'm wondering if that's what I saw because the one that we watched, the one that we watched on Sunday, so we're like, let's put the Land Before Time on for Luca. And it was like so old and so slow that I was like, this is not the movie I remember. Like I was really upset and like the second half I kind of like tuned out. Was Chomper in it?
Melanie Avalon:
I think he is like a key character, I think, in The Lamb Before Time 2, and I had a, I had a pup, a stuffed animal version of him. I think he was like a little baby Tyrannosaurus Rex or something, I'm not sure.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so yeah, there's like little foot. This is fresh in my mind because little foot. There's like spike ducky Sarah is the triceratops. That was the one that I really liked. Oh my goodness. Sarah. She's red, right? Yes and So when I was watching I was like this is not the land before time that I remember like I Was captivated by it when I was a kid and I was like always wanting to rewatch it You know since then and I watched on Sunday and I was like, this is not the movie I remember so I bet I saw that the second one too because it was Way probably like faster and more exciting because the one that we watched was like It was just too old for me. Like so I bet this is the one I'm gonna watch this one And see if this is the one that I watched also because it's like, okay So the first one it looks like came out in 1988 And the second one, you know in 1994 That's probably the one I saw it also in 1994 which like that makes sense Was also and it also the one that I watched also was like it had orchestra music I was like, I was sick kept saying to pee. I'm like, I don't think this is like I don't remember there being orchestra music like none of this is like Resonating with me like it wasn't that experience that I thought I was gonna have where I'm like Oh, I'm like reliving That all those feelings like none of the feelings were there. So that's probably what it is
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. So we're solving the mystery in real time right now. I'm so happy that I'm here for this moment.
Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. Yeah, I'm really happy again, because I want to watch it with him and like, I wanted to feel all those same like things. And yeah,
Melanie Avalon:
I would watch it with you guys if I was there.
Vanessa Spina:
That would be awesome. You'd be probably as into it as we are. And then there's another one that cause I was like, what are their dinosaur movies there? And I was like, Jurassic Park is like wildly inappropriate for a two year old, but apparently there's like ice age. There's the ice age, like there's dinosaur. Apparently the second one or something has dinosaurs in it. And that made one of my mom friend's sons get really into dinosaurs. So I just want to like pump him up so that when we go there tomorrow, he's like, dinosaur.
Melanie Avalon:
You know, we're like schooling him fast, like we're like, watch these movies now.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, we're like, it's like a crash course or something. I'm going to look this one up. Maybe we'll have time to watch it after we record. Either way, it'll be really fun. But we're just going with all our friends. It's a day off here, May 1st in Prague. So everyone has a day off. And we're doing like a big picnic. It's going to be really, really fun day and kind of kick off the summer here. So I'm really excited for that.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I have a major important clarification question. So Dino Park, that could be so many things. It could be like one of those parks where you like dig in the sand, or it could be there's animatronics. There's animatronics. Okay, wait. Okay. Is it like, is it indoors? It's out.
Vanessa Spina:
and it's in a huge park that has like these cliff kind of rocks in it and I've never actually been to any kind of Dino Park. So that might explain why I'm so excited But also just mostly because I want to see you know Luca run around being like dinosaurs and being excited about it and Pete also is really Excited and we all are I think all the adults are too. So I'm not sure who's more excited. The kids are the adults Can you drink at the Dino Park? Probably I mean, I don't know if you know I mean, I know you know what Europe's like but in Czech most you like I'll go to the playground and people have beer like 10 in the morning like it's just normal here to be drinking any time of day and Drinking in public and you don't have to like hide it. Can you have open containers? Yeah, it's very like It's Europe. So people are very open with alcohol and it's such a different culture Like you'll walk by like a pub and they'll be like babies in there. Like it's like it's just so different How they they don't segregate it as much. It's just more part of life then Yeah, you you must love it when you come when you go to Germany or when you're in Europe
Melanie Avalon:
Well, so interestingly, I don't think I've been to Europe since being... Oh, well, no, actually I've been since I could drink, nevermind. I haven't really been like as my current self when I'm like a wine, like a wine drinker. No, when was the last time? That's actually a really good question. I don't think I have gone since my college trip.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, like London was just a day, but it wasn't really like getting a full European experience.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wait, I did go to Oh, yeah, you're right. Well, you remember my travels. I did go to London at Thanksgiving. That didn't really count, though. Quick comment on the Dino Park. There's one here. And, but it's indoors and it looks like it's more like universal studios. Not really. I don't know these animatronics at this Dino Park. Are they like, legit like big
Vanessa Spina:
I think so. So one of our friends went last week and she basically has been raving about it and that's why we're going. So the only details I know about it are from like the pictures that she sent and she said there were animatronics. I was like, wow, that's crazy. Cause yeah, I've never really, I haven't, you know, I grew up a lot in Asia and stuff. Like I missed out on a lot of the like amusement park kind of things, like even just going to zoos and stuff. Like we go to the zoo. We used to go like every week just cause I'm, I feel like I'm making up for things that I didn't do when I was growing up. So yeah, it, yeah, it should be pretty good. I'll report back and let you know.
Melanie Avalon:
I keep seeing ads for the one that they have here. It looks scary. You should go. I know I want to. I was trying to figure out if you could drink it, like if you could go at night. Because the idea of going during the day, but if I can go at night, like have drinks, like go with my sister, I guess I could not sneak in wine. But yeah. I had a fun moment though. Last week, I went to, did I tell you this? Do you remember the Veronica's, the band? They sing that song forever. Baby, we ain't going to live forever. If you heard it, you would know it. They also sing untouched. I went to see them and it was my first, it was my first like standing room only concert experience since college. You know, where you're just like standing and not sitting and dancing. So it was a really fun time. It was at a venue that leans towards the more like heavy metal goth route. And what was interesting is so I bought this like gothic summer black dress and everything. And I felt like I fit in so well, even though I'm like not the gothic type, but I felt so accepted. I was like, this community is very accepting of like strong aesthetics.
Vanessa Spina:
Right, that's true, and like black dresses.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, like I can wear like a massive black dress and like nobody looked, nobody thought anything of it. I was like, this is great. Even though I'm like nothing like that culture. Right.
Vanessa Spina:
It's just like the lack of judgment you were feeling. Yeah, it was it was
Melanie Avalon:
it was a really fun time. But okay, should we circle back to more fasting stuff? I'm trying to decide. I might actually, maybe since I had mentioned that study, we could actually talk about the question that was related to it, just to make sure we get to it. So Emily said, intense strength training. Is it okay to do intense strength training in the morning and then continue to fast until like 3 p .m.? And Kathleen said, I would like to know this as well. And this was both on Facebook. If people would like to ask questions, by the way, you can directly email questions at ipodcast .com. Or you can go to ipodcast .com. You can submit questions there. Or you can ask in my Facebook group, which is IF biohackers, intermittent fasting, plus real foods, plus life. So strength training. And this is really interesting because Vanessa and I were talking about this question beforehand. And I thought it was so interesting that we immediately had completely different interpretations of this question, which makes me, it just makes you realize like in life in general, how often, I mean, we just don't see the same world, you know? Like we're interpreting things differently all the time in life. It's so true. So for example, when I read this, I automatically thought, oh, she means when she says, is it okay? She means for her muscle gains from strength training if she fast until 3. But what were you thinking, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
So, when I read the question, I assumed that is it okay meant, is it okay to do it and still get autophagy or still get fat loss or still get whatever benefits from intermittent fasting? So, kind of like the opposite of what you're thinking.
Melanie Avalon:
So interesting. I just find it so interesting because it never even, it literally never even occurred to me to read it in the other way in my mind, which just goes to show, I mean, it's really, it's really no wonder people, not to make this a whole tangent, but in life that I understand why people get in so many arguments and confusion surrounding things because Misunderstandings. Yeah. Misunderstandings, especially because half the time you don't even realize it because it wouldn't be something where you need to actually like address it. So if we're just like engaging in life and talking, we're probably misunderstanding each other all the time, but it's nothing that wouldn't be clarified because it wouldn't need to be clarified. If that makes sense. That's why you got to put emojis on things. I know. Emojis. Friends. They're so underrated. I feel strongly about this. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
Same, same. I was going to say though, so for me, when I read the questions, I try to put myself in the position of, you know, someone who's listening and writing in and I used to listen to this podcast, you know, for years. And so most of the questions that I found people were writing in about was, does this break my fast? Does this, if I do this, does it break my fast or does it interfere with my fasting somehow? But I do think that the podcast is, has been going through an evolution. Listeners have been going through an evolution podcast podcast itself and sort of our greater community where we sort of overlap have been undergoing this sort of evolution in terms of favoring like body composition changes, muscle gain, you know, optimizing protein intake, all these things. And I'm not speaking, I'm not trying to speak for all listeners, but I do think that there are a lot of listeners and I've noticed just in the quality of questions and you know, I don't mean the quality is any questions are better than others, but just in terms of the qualities of the questions have been more focused on muscle growth, muscle retention, body re -composition, fat loss, as opposed to like maybe just fasting, autophagy, weight loss, if that makes sense.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I've definitely seen that evolution. I noticed it as well.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've been here the whole time. So you definitely, and you've been, you know, reading the questions for years. So I could see why someone writing now, if this is like a recent question, and I think it might, it is, I think it, yeah, I came in February. So if it's a recent question, then yeah, it could be more related to, is it okay? Okay. So let me get to it, the actual question. So is it okay to do intense strength training in the morning and can you continue to fast until around 3pm? And is it then okay on my muscle gains? Is it then okay on my muscle repair and recovery? If that is the context of the question, then I would say that from my perspective, if your daily, you would want to eat some protein after your workout, probably within a couple of hours. And I'm basing this mostly on my interviews with Dr. Don Lehman, who I've spoken to specifically about this question. So he's probably basing that on research studies that he's done himself or that he's seen. I'm not basing this on any that I've actually personally read. So he always says, and he is the guru for me when it comes to, you know, muscle gain and protein intake and protein timing, that it's best to do, you can do a workout fasted and not eat before your workout, but you would want to time some protein, like a protein shake or a protein meal within a couple of hours of that workout and that being, you know, optimal in terms of repair and recovery, which is part of the muscle building process. So if that's what you're asking, then you might want to just get in a protein shake, like a lean protein shake an hour or two after your workout. You can also have it before, but he definitely says after the workout is optimal and, you know, waiting until, until after being favorable to having it before. So if that is the context of the question, if the question is just about, is it okay for me to do that, like in general, I would say, if you feel good doing it, you know, and you're checking in with yourself and you enjoy working out fasted and you feel fine, then not eating until around 3 p .m. And you actually maybe feel great, then it's definitely more than okay to do that. But some people don't like to work out fasted. They don't feel as energetic when they work out fasted than when they eat before. Some people have to eat after they work out because they feel really hungry or ravenous or after workout. And so in those situations, it may not be quote unquote, okay for you because you just don't feel great after. So, you know, if the context is just, is it okay in general, I would say, just check in with yourself and see how you feel, you know, personally from my own experience, you know, and I'm not recommending this to anyone else, but this is what I personally do is I work out fasted most days and I feel great. I feel great, you know, all throughout the morning, I feel great working out and then I still feel great after and it may, like that's just, it may be well adapted to my personal physiology, but I feel good doing that myself. But I do know that some people don't feel great. What's your opinion, Melanie?
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much. That was such a helpful and thorough answer. It's really interesting because historically, I feel like there's been so much discussion surrounding this. And I do think if you're like a, a bodybuilder, you know, competition level, this is what you do and everything. I think that's very different than the quote everyday person strength training. And my long story short takeaway is that if you're the everyday person strength training, I really don't think it's that big of a deal to eat right after your workout for strength training muscle gains. So the the interview that I'm really excited for you to listen to the Peter T one with Luke van loon. So they actually talked about this, they talked about it more in the context, though, of people eating punctuated protein throughout the day, and smaller meals versus like all at once and more of a one meal a day situation. And he said that the basically the the signaling that happens from the protein lasts longer, because basically protein intake itself can signal muscle protein synthesis. And so he was saying that having small amounts of protein throughout the day creates small little moments of doing that compared to having all at once that signal actually lasts way longer through to the next day. And I really said that's like on the eating side of things, not in the strength training side of things. But basically that the conversation was surrounding the signaling that happens for muscle building and how it can how the anabolic window surrounding that can actually last longer than, like immediately, it was a really, really good interview. But just from all the people I've interviewed throughout the years, and what I've read, I just keep coming back to the same thing, which is that it's what I just said, which is that I think if you're like a bodybuilder, a competition athlete, all of that, I think that's very different than the quote, everyday person. And for the everyday person, it seems that you have a pretty wide anabolic window from strength training in order to get those muscle gains. What's really interesting, I don't know if this is true, this is what they do. They say so like, for example, when I do the M sculpt that I do all the time, which is the intense muscle stimulation with these devices that use electrical stimulation to force muscle contractions, they say that the stimulus from that for muscle growth lasts for 90 days, which I don't know if that's accurate. So those are my thoughts. I'm not like super concerned about it. But if you want to be on the safe side, I don't think I don't think it can hurt to have protein sooner thereafter.
Vanessa Spina:
I think there's a difference between like what's optimal, you know, optimal. I think you would want to have it within an hour or two if you're very serious about either maintaining or gaining muscle and especially if you're over 40, if you are under 40 and you still have really high hormones and you don't have a hard time putting on muscle, then it may not be as serious for you. So in that case, I wouldn't worry about as much like you were saying, but I think it's great that we sort of also have different, a little bit different opinions on it.
Melanie Avalon:
I do too. And actually, I know, because Peter talks about this a lot, Peter Tia, who I still hopefully will meet someday. But I know in his practice, at least as of right now, they often have, I think, I don't know if it's particularly the women in general, but he likes having sort of like fasting windows, but they have small protein intakes during the fast, which is breaking a fast. But I guess it just goes to speak to what he thinks of the importance of supporting that muscle, that muscle. So yeah, I would say I would really encourage listeners to experiment and try different things and find what works for you, which is what we always come back to. And the cost benefits of... But it's key. Yeah, it's so key. And the cost benefits of some people, some people, it might work better for them to strength train and have protein right after and that's better for their muscle and their lifestyle. Some people might want to continue that, like they like the benefits they get from that extra fasting. So the great thing is you can play around and always try different things.
Vanessa Spina:
It's literally what I've been saying almost every week on my podcast, experiment and then find what works for you. That's really amazing that we all can experiment, ultimately try all the different things and then see how we feel best, what's working best for us. You can definitely tell with body scans, if you're making the muscle gains that you want to be making, if you're on track with that.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. And again, I, like, I know nothing about the, the bodybuilder world, or I'm like, I'm not in that world and never have been. And that's a whole nother, the people who are like really, really intensely focused on muscle gain as a performance marker or as a, you know, a job, a lifestyle vocation, I would take a different approach if I were them.
Vanessa Spina:
You know, it's funny, I never was until I started understanding the connection really between our long -term health and wellness and muscle. And then I feel like we're all bodybuilders, like you're either building your body or you're not like you're, we're all really bodybuilders in some way or another, and you know, in terms of what muscle can do for your, an active muscle, muscle that you're actively working can do for your brain, for your longevity, for your overall health, your durability, it's made me really become not a, not about to step on a stage kind of bodybuilder, not in the gym three, four times a day, but in a different sense, like bodybuilder light or something. Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I agree. I'm like obsessed with muscle. I've just never, like the hyper trophy, like the muscle that would not be a normal, the type of muscle that I don't think you would get normally unless you really, really like.
Vanessa Spina:
for 10, super 10 on the cover of, yeah, the magazines.
Melanie Avalon:
That's also really interesting, that whole world of aesthetics. Speaking about aesthetics, you know, because they all try to achieve this very idealized ideal, which I personally am not, like I don't find that attractive personally. So I find it really interesting how people are attracted to different body types and aesthetics and things. All right. Well, that was fun. And then picking up, this is picking up from last week, we're still making our way through, I posted in my Facebook group asking people, what was a mistake you made with intermittent fasting? And we got a lot of really good answers. And so last week we were talking about one that was talking about the role of intuitive eating. So that was a really nice discussion. So check that out if you like. That was episode 369. But I'm just going to read through some of the other ones. Sonia says snacking throughout her window and eating too much in general, not planning meals caused her to eat junk ravenously before the meal was ready, snacking throughout her window. So I guess she means like snacking in her eating window and eating too much. I feel like I read that one last week. Well, okay. And then next one, Holly, this is interesting. So Holly said, doing it for too long, it put my A1C in the pre -diabetic range. I switched to shorter fast and tracking macros and that worked to bring it down and stabilize my blood glucose levels. And then she said that wearing a CGM was a game changer for her. So this is really interesting because this is what we were talking about earlier in the show. What you hear that somebody who says that longer fasting caused them to become pre -diabetic. What are your thoughts?
Vanessa Spina:
I mean, I can't speak specifically to this person's experience and what they had. I mean, you know, I guess anything is possible, but like at the beginning of the podcast, we were talking about how that's often interpreted as being the protein or sorry, not the protein as the intermittent fasting being the cause of higher blood sugar. I don't see how eating less and giving your body more time in the fasted state would lead to higher blood sugars. I don't think I've ever seen that personally, but I'm not saying it didn't happen to that person or that it can happen. I just, I don't know what the mechanism would be for that because as you stop eating and you go longer and longer periods of time without introducing food, your body is lowering insulin, breaking down stored energy, breaking down stored glucose, maybe dumping a little bit of glycogen here and there. Sometimes people have seen higher blood sugars when they're fasting because there's even like, you know, some glycerol coming from fat burning, but you're breaking down fat. You're in a catabolic mode, which is a breakdown mode. You're breaking down stored energy on your body in the form of fat stored sugar in your body in the form of glycogen. Hopefully you're not breaking down too much muscle, but I don't know how you could ever end up pre -diabetic for intermittent fasting. Like I'm just not sure. I just don't know what that mechanism is. I don't know.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So it's really interesting. And actually, I think this will be way in the past now, but I think literally today on my Instagram, I have a reel with Gary Taubes where we talk about insulin. I'm wondering what we talk about because my social media manager posted it this morning and all I see is the word insulin. So I'm not sure what the clip is. I feel like it might be related to some of this. So something really interesting about this is, so people's blood cause of high blood sugar and pre -diabetics and diabetics is from what they're eating, which indirectly, I guess that's the, maybe the root cause, but it's really the liver releasing glucose into the bloodstream and keeping it at a higher resting blood sugar rate. So it kind of comes back to a liver issue there. And so somebody might be fasting and their liver is just releasing, keeping them at higher blood sugar levels. And then with dietary modifications, fasting modifications, they change the system and then they're experiencing lower blood sugar levels. And I feel like, again, this is kind of like what you were saying. I can't speak to this specific person to Holly and what happened in her experience. But I feel like oftentimes people might try intermittent fasting with a certain dietary approach. And it's like they're not fasting long enough to really lower their blood sugar levels and or just coupled with the dietary choices they're making. Like I can see how people would get into a state where they're quote fasting, but because of the whole pattern of everything they're doing with their food and their fasting, they're just getting to a place where they're never really intensely lowering their blood sugar levels. And they're kind of so I'm really glad that Holly did use a CGM. And that was a game changer for her. So that actually showed her what was happening to her blood sugar constantly with her fasting and her eating. And so I love hearing that. And for listeners who are not familiar, a continuous glucose monitor, it's a device that you put on your arm. And then it constantly measures your blood sugar throughout the day. So you can see how you react to your fast and your food and all the things. And we go to NutriSense.io/ifpodcast, probably using the code IF Podcast, you should get a discount for that. But yeah, I'm similar to Vanessa in that it's hard to say or know that it's actually the fasting that is causing a pre -diabetic response. I think it's probably more a misinterpretation of the entirety of everything that is causing it. I don't think it's literally the fasting causing it because the fasting itself should do the opposite.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean, you're breaking down stored energy and you would, no matter what, if you were doing fasting for a prolonged period of time, you would lower most of your metabolic markers, like your cardio metabolic markers would, would benefit from spending time in the fasted state. But I know our mutual friend, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, she always says that she routinely sees women who do higher protein diets have higher blood glucose and higher cortisol. And both times that we did podcasts together, we talked about it and she said she doesn't know why, but they know that it's like, it's benign. It's not something to worry about or to be concerned with. So I could see how that like, or potentially glycogen dumping or, you know, doing something where you're getting one sort of marker and maybe it's just the interpretation of it, as we were saying, that's off, but it definitely wouldn't. I think in most cases, unless there's some kind of condition that I'm not aware of, it wouldn't ever be able to give someone prediabetes.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I'll read some more. So Stacy said not fasting clean. What a difference. Sean said, feels like the trend has now moved to eat soon after waking. Don't snack and close your eating window as early as you can. I'm trying this, but I'm not hungry until noon. So it's been a challenge. Okay. I love hearing this, Sean, because this is an example where, you know, we keep going back to finding what works for you personally. And I feel like so often people, like we hear like, this is what we should be doing. Like, like she just said that she, she feels like she needs to eat right after waking, but she's generally not hungry until noon. I would listen to your body's signals. I think one of the amazing things about intermittent fasting is A, you're not struggling anymore with hunger signals. So you're not struggling not to eat and you're also not forcing yourself to eat when you don't want to eat. So I would encourage Sean to like, not stress about feeling like she has to eat right after waking up. Do you have thoughts on that?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, definitely. I know that in some cases, after doing a certain pattern for a long period of time, your body sort of adjusts to that. So you become used to never feeling hungry in the morning. And I think for people with leptin issues, people who have leptin resistance, having a meal within an hour or two of waking can be helpful in that specific situation. But that doesn't need to be applied to everyone, unless you have leptin resistance. I don't think it's something that you need to be concerned with. Or just in general, having to have a meal early in the morning. The only other situation that comes to mind is, again, if you are really, really serious about building muscle, maybe you're a bodybuilder, like we were saying earlier, or you're someone who is perhaps undermuscled and you're really on a muscle, you know, gaining journey, and it's very important to you, then, you know, there are things like having protein first thing in the morning, or even having it before bed, that can actually help with the muscle retention, because it halts muscle protein breakdown. But in all other situations, I wouldn't worry about having to eat first thing when you wake up, especially if you don't feel like you want to.
Melanie Avalon:
Love that. Is the Lepton, that Lepton reset protocol, was that like Jack Cruz or?
Vanessa Spina:
Yes. Yeah. He's the one who really, I think popularized it.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Mary said, not fasting clean. When I changed to an unsweetened toothpaste and chewing gum during my fasting window, I finally got all the benefits. Now I always fast clean or not at all. Oh, wow. That's really intense that the toothpaste... Well, all the chewing gum. Oh, yeah. Chewing gum. I mean, if you think about it, if you're chewing gum like flavored gum during your fast, you're literally... You're mechanically engaging in the eating mechanics of your body and you're getting flavor. It's just telling your body everything, which is the opposite of fasting. So I think people, if they're chewing gum, they might see incredible differences if they stop kind of like Mary did. Oh, Jessica. Jessica said starting. So I guess fasting did not work for Jessica. I'd be really curious what she tried. Becca said not doing ADF from the beginning. It has definitely made a difference for me. I feel better, look better, and do very well on it versus 24 hour IF. So ADF is alternate day fasting and there are different manifestations of it, but it's often where around two days a week, you fast either completely so you don't have anything or you have like around 500 calories or so. What I find interesting about ADF is I feel like some people, it works really, really well. Like Becca, it really, really helped her. Me, I'm not an ADF -er. I need to have my big massive meal every day. Do you like ADF, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
I'm the same. I like to just have yeah one big feast usually or two meals But you know five days of the week right now. I'm doing that that pattern I I just love it. I'm just having one one big meal and it for me. I need to do similar things day -to -day Like doing things like changing it up based on which week you're in your cycle and all that Like I just it's just too much for me. Like it has to be something Simple and repeatable. Yeah, and I'm similar to you in that sense
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I'm the same way. I'm glad you mentioned that about the cycle because like, that's what Dr. Peltz's program is really all about is syncing it up to your cycle, which I feel like probably helps so many women and is great for me personally. I just, it's just like a lot, I just like having my system and I'm good. And I actually asked her that I asked her, I said, if you are doing intermittent fasting and like you feel great and you're not really changing it up, do you need to change for your cycle? And she said that if it's really working for you, like keep on keeping on, but she does suggest the one thing that she suggests people honor from her approach is fasting less, how was it? Okay. There's two times that she wants you to fast less. She wants you to fast less right before your cycle, as well as during ovulation.
Vanessa Spina:
I've heard that from other people before. I do think it can make sense for people, especially if you're like on a fertility journey and stuff like that. But it, yeah, I think definitely like I've heard people talk about those two periods of time as being a little bit more sensitive or times when you need more calories because your metabolic rate is higher.
Melanie Avalon:
it was that. And also, so she talks about how she says estrogen is like fasting's friend because it goes well with like a lower carb approach and all the things and progesterone preferentially quote prefers carbs and glucose. And so I guess from a hormonal profile right before your cycle, your progesterone is high and you need more carbs and it's kind of, I guess contrary to fasting. And then with the ovulation, I find that really interesting because the ovulation seems to be a time of like when you're feeling really great and everything, which I would want to do like more fasting. Yeah, I find a really interesting perspective, but she did so her recommendation was, I don't remember if it was to do both of those or one of those, but it had something to do with that. Like she did think that that could have a really beneficial effect for most women. So yeah, there are a few more, but I think we can, we can save them for next time.
Vanessa Spina:
Just one thing, when you're talking about her recommendations, is it like extended fasting, like longer than 48 hours kind of fasting or longer than 24 hours? Or is that like intraday, like even just like a 16 -8?
Melanie Avalon:
Just in general, like her approach.
Vanessa Spina:
those recommendations with, you know, the cycle.
Melanie Avalon:
It's not longer fasting. She does talk about, it's mostly within a day, like the amount of hours that you fast.
Vanessa Spina:
Okay, I thought she was, I thought maybe she was a person who was recommending like extended fasting.
Melanie Avalon:
She does, but not as part of the protocol. It's more, it can be beneficial to do some longer fasts at different times, depending based on where you are hormonally, but it's not part of the protocol. There are times you can do it, and she probably would suggest that you do it, but the actual different cycle moments, and I can double check this, but I'm pretty sure it's not extended fasting.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I was just curious what she's saying for people who are doing intermittent fasting, that they should not do any intermittent fasting the week before they get their cycle or before they ovulate.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So here are the exact things that she recommends. Pulling up my notes. So the power phase, that's days one to 10 and days 16 to 19 of your cycle. And that is okay. So she does recommend 13 up to 72 hours of fasting. So that's what I meant. Like it's not prescribed, but you can do it if you want longer. The manifestation phase, that's days 11 through 15. So I think that's when you are ovulating, I'm assuming. And during that time you fast less than 15 hours. And then the nurture phase, which is day 20 until your period. So that's the time like right before that I was talking about right before your cycle. And she doesn't want any fasting during that time.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that kind of plan. I felt my eyes going cross -eyed during that because I was just like, oh my gosh. It's a lot of things. It just feels kind of gimmicky. I don't know.
Melanie Avalon:
Kind of like when I read Elisa Fitti's book about this, and she gets really intense. Like she talks about what type of activities you do during every part of your cycle. And I'm like, that's, I mean, I'm really happy it works for people, but that, that's very overwhelming to me. Like if I had to change what I'm literally doing based on my cycle.
Vanessa Spina:
There's so many things that we have to, you know, keep up with. It just sounds, I don't like things that are overly complicated personally. Maybe it works for other people, but one thing that I have always said for years and years and years, like back when I first started my, my keto program, which I was running really extensively, like in 2017, 2018, 2019, I would always tell people to start it there. It was called the 20 day ketogenic girl challenge to start it in the first 10 days of their cycle, because you have that high estrogen. You kind of feel like superwoman. It's a great time to try anything new, like a new exercise program, a new diet, a new fasting, intermittent fasting approach. It's just a great time. Cause you get an extra boost from that. Whereas like in that last week before your cycle, when progesterone is dominant, you're like more, your metabolic rate is about two to 300 calories more. And you have cravings for certain foods and you're not as energetic and it's just the least ideal time to start something new. So I, I kind of get that, but that's probably like as far as I would take it.
Melanie Avalon:
I know I love that like the like the one the one starting off point is it's really overwhelming to me and I'm actually just going to read the question because we answered it because Hillary wanted to know how do you feel about if and women's hormones first doing more circadian rhythm of eating and so I feel like we sort of address that and how we feel.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. And so I know, so the leptin thing and eating breakfast within an hour or two of waking has really been gaining in popularity. One of my good friends, Sarah Kleiner, she really has been, you know, one of the leading voices in talking about leptin resistance and leptin sensitivity and how to correct it with the circadian health approaches, these like quantum health approaches with like using light and grounding and getting morning light and, you know, wearing blue blockers and all this stuff to help correct leptin. But again, it's really for people who have leptin resistance and it's based on the work of Dr. Jack Cruz. But I think that that has sort of seeped into like other or like the greater sort of consciousness in some of our communities of like fasting, paleo, keto, carnivore, you know, just whole foods approaches. And so a lot of people think that like one of our listeners who wrote in today that this is like the way to fast now is like to have breakfast within an hour or two of waking to not drink coffee, et cetera. But it's really a protocol for people who have leptin resistance, who are obese and have really high levels of leptin that their brain is not registering. But it's, it doesn't mean that it's for everyone else. And I, my role really, you know, when it comes to intermittent fasting is how do you feel? I think, do you feel good doing it? And I think it's such an important question because personally, I've had times where I don't feel good eating one meal a day or I haven't, where I've wanted to have two meals a day or when I'm traveling and having breakfast and dinner or having lunch and dinner or whatever works better for me. Right now I happen to be back in a period of time where one meal a day, five days a week is amazing. It's really helping me, especially with my mental clarity when I'm working and podcasting and it gives me more time in the day to not be preparing meals and cleaning up, et cetera. But I've had times where it just didn't feel great or when, you know, you're doing it and you're looking at the clock or you're like, oh, like a couple more hours until I can eat or you are feeling hungry. Like those are signals that you probably should eat or that it would probably serve you too. But if you're feeling great when you're doing whichever kind of form, ADF, 16, eight, 24, like whatever approach you're doing, if you're feeling great, then it's probably working for you. And if you're not feeling good, you're white knuckling it maybe because you're not fully fat adapted or for whatever other reason, maybe it's your cortisol. Maybe your cortisol is already quite high from having a busy or stressful schedule, then adding in a quote unquote stressor of intermittent fasting. It could just not be the right timing for you or it could just not be great fit for your physiology. So it's so important to check in with yourself, see how you feel. Do you feel better having breakfast or do you feel better skipping breakfast and fasting until noon? It's all your experience and how you feel and what works best for you based on your current, you know, state and even like your current health and everything.
Melanie Avalon:
I love that so much. We're just still on the same page and thank you for sharing, you know, your specific experience because I think it adds a really good example of what this looks like to practically, you know, have your lifestyle being the way it is or what you're going through and how a different intermittent fasting style might support you at that time, like with your busy mom this and doing all the things and you know, this one meal a day approach is working really well for you right now, which is so awesome.
Vanessa Spina:
And then on the weekend, we like, I often have breakfast, but sometimes I don't, it's just, just listening and getting the feedback and seeing how you feel. And that that's just the most important thing.
Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. I love it. So for listeners, again, if you'd like to submit your own questions, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode370. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @MelanieAvalon. Vanessa is @KetogenicGirl. And I think that is all things. So anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?
Vanessa Spina:
I had a great time with you on the episode today and with the questions that we had from listeners and can't wait for the next one. Neat.
Melanie Avalon:
to talk to you next week.
Vanessa Spina:
Okay, sounds good, talk to you then. Bye.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
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The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
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