Welcome to Episode 378 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Be sure to try the new LMNT Sparkling — a bold, 16-ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!
MD LOGIC: Unlock the secret to a perfect night's sleep with Melatonin Max by MD Logic Health! This unique clean formula is tested for accurate potency and combines 3 mg of immediate-release melatonin with 1 1/2 mg of slow-release melatonin, ensuring you fall asleep quickly and stay asleep all night without morning grogginess! Ideal for home or travel, Melatonin Max also helps combat jet lag and supports mitochondrial health with its potent antioxidant properties. Get 10% off at mdlogichealth.com with the code ifpodcast!
To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!
SHOW NOTES
LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!
MD LOGIC: Get 10% off at mdlogichealth.com with the code IFPODCAST!
Go to ifpodcast.com/X3 and use the coupon code SAVE50 to get $50 off!
Listener Q&A: Stephanie - I’ve heard that fasting is not good as you get older? True?
Listener Feedback: Susan - My mother is 78, she’s been fasting for 5 years. She said she feels healthier and better now than she ever did in her 40’s and 50’s.
Listener Feedback: Karen - I am 64 and have been fasting for about 5 years. I feel great!
Listener Q&A: Lizzie - What are the health benefits for 70+ years?
Intermittent fasting enhanced the cognitive function in older adults with mild cognitive impairment by inducing biochemical and metabolic changes: a 3-year progressive study
Effect of time-restricted eating and intermittent fasting on cognitive function and mental health in older adults: A systematic review
Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 378 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 378 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. What is new in your world, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
Things are good. I was just telling you that I feel like I'm finally really getting back into my rhythm with work and balancing, you know, having the two kids now and the five month old and the toddler and just feeling like I'm getting my brain back partly. And big thanks to intermittent fasting for my interviewing. And last week was like the first week I felt like, wow, all the interviews went exactly as I wanted them to. Everything flowed well with work. I'm getting really organized again. Like it just feels really good. And it's taken a little bit of time to get here, but I'm feeling really excited about it. I had a really interesting interview last week and I was thinking about you so much preparing about this because I was listening to, so I interviewed Dr. John Jaquish and I had never interviewed him before. And he's a really interesting, he is a character. I was going to say character, but yes. Yeah. And I mean, if you follow him on Instagram, which I started following him last week when I was getting ready for the interview and I was like, he kind of projects a certain persona, you know, of like what he wants to put out into the world, like a lifestyle kind of thing, like a male influencer, let's say, if you're not following him already. But there was this great interview with Dave Asprey, one of your favorite people, and he was interviewing John. And it was a really interesting podcast because it was one of those interviews where it felt like they were just talking on the phone and nobody else was there, you know, kind of like when we talk. We're just dropping all these really interesting things that I wanted to ask you about. And if you knew about, okay, so they started talking about basically their diets and what they're eating. And Dr. Jaquish was, he's wanting to get a little bit more lean. So he was talking about the things that he was doing. And he does OMAD carnivore style, like he's doesn't eat all day. He does what we do on this podcast. And then he has a huge amount of ribeye steak for dinner. I mean, he eats a lot of meat for dinner. So huge protein meals and mostly steak, mostly carnivore. And he's someone who's very well versed on the research, researcher on exercise, physique performance, body composition. And he's an inventor for listeners. If you're not familiar, he invented a couple of devices, one of them that helps people with osteoporosis.
Melanie Avalon:
We created OsteoStrong, which is very well known.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes. And one of his early partners and investors in it was Tony Robbins, who just called him and said, I want your machine. I want your prototype. So really interesting. And he also created the X3 bar, which is this machine for gaining weight, which I also want to ask you about if you ever tried it.
Melanie Avalon:
have it. It's really interesting because I had him on the show as well. It's bands, essentially. It's like bands for resistance. And he has a whole book about... His book is called Weightlifting as a Waste of Time. I remember when I got the pitch for him to come on the show, I was like, this looks... I was definitely judgmental. I was like, this looks like he's just trying to sell something. I was actually really surprised reading the book, what all I learned, and then interviewing him. He really knew his stuff and the science behind it. And what was interesting is every person, so his X3 system, I've mentioned it to quite a few different people in the sphere who are well known. He's come up in conversation. And every time it's come up, they've said, yes, X3. If you actually do it, it really works. And it's super short. The workout is 10 minutes or something.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so do you like you're not much of a weights person, otherwise you would use it?
Melanie Avalon:
Well, A, now that we're talking about it, I really feel like I should. I am so not schooled and nuanced in the applying techniques to your muscles to build muscle. I was worried I was going to do it wrong. That's just me being lazy. He has a lot of videos. So I definitely could have should actually probably watch the videos and do it with the videos to make sure I'm doing it right. The program, it's these bands that you set up in it. The point is he talks about how it creates the optimal amount of contraction with minimal and I don't know all the terminology and I should. It's been a while since I interviewed him, but with minimal stress, essentially, you basically get all of the signaling input that you need to build muscle without the potential negative effects that happen with weightlifting.
Vanessa Spina:
the way I understand it is that we have different strengths at different points of when our limbs are extended and the bands and the bar help you basically meet each area of potential strength that you would have based on where you're at. So if your arm is extended back, you have a lot more strength than if your arm is fully extended. And so it's going to give you way more resistance when you're extended back than when you're fully extended. Whereas when you're lifting a weight, you're always dealing with the same amount of resistance, even though you have variability in your amount of strength. So you're pushing yourself harder where you should, which basically stimulates more muscle growth. Are you going to try?
Melanie Avalon:
Do you have the system?
Vanessa Spina:
I have the same thoughts, like I'm afraid to use it wrong and hurt myself.
Melanie Avalon:
And the thing is, like I said, he has so many videos. So like, I don't want to scare people away. Like, I think if you, if this sounds like something that would work for you, especially because it is very time efficient, it's like I said, very short workouts. He has a lot of resources. So I think you could watch the videos and do it correctly. I just personally was at the time and still now I felt overwhelmed at like learning how to do it, but I probably honestly should bite the bullet and learn how to do it. Like I said, I do think it could be a really great, efficient way to really support muscle maths and strength. Also just reading his book. Like I said, I thought his book was going to be just selling something, but I was really impressed with everything I learned about the science of why it works. And then when I was talking, like I said, to other friends in the sphere who are also well known and they were like, yeah, it's, it really works. I was like, Oh, okay. So if listeners would like to get their own system, we made a link for you guys. You can go to ifpodcast.com/X3 and use the coupon code save50 to get $50 off. So that's save five zero. So what did they talk about in the show?
Vanessa Spina:
So yeah, I think he's a really fasting individual. So I was really interested when, you know, he started talking about how he does OMAD. He mostly eats protein with some fat, obviously, if he's having ribeye, but he does keto. He does like a high protein modified keto diet. And I thought that was fascinating. He also does these three day long dry fasts and he's been doing that. So kind of lion diet, lion diet, similar situation. And so he was asking Dave about, you know, Dave's like been leaning out a lot. He said he's super lean and they were hanging out recently and he, so he was talking about what he was doing. And Dave was saying that basically he does the same thing. He eats a hundred grams of protein at least at a meal, usually OMAD, but then he started eating more. And then they started talking about the new study that we were just talking about that came out about how there's no upper limit on protein synthesis. Oh, they were talking about that? Yes. So that I think the study had just came out when they did the interview. So they were saying how, how great it was, you know, also for people who like doing OMAD and you know, that you could basically, you're not just going to use 25 grams out of the hundred grams and then oxidize or burn off the rest. You're going to use it all and you can have most of those amino acids available for uptake for your muscles. So that was really interesting, but then it got more and more interesting because Dave said that what he's doing now is as he was doing high fat keto, he was losing so much weight and he got so lean that his team started telling him he needed to put some weight on because it was making him look old and he's supposed to be like this longevity expert. And so he said now he, he's trying this new diet to put weight on and he's eating three to 400 grams of carbonate with the high protein, like a hundred to 200 grams of protein. I think he was doing 200 grams of protein a day, two meals of a hundred grams of protein. And he said his HB1C was great. His triglycerides were great, like 60 or something. And he was doing it basically to put on weight, which is ironic. I'm not sure if he has though, but Dr. John Jake, which was really shocked, you know, that he was doing that because he's like the bulletproof guy. He's the keto guy, right? And now he's eating three to 400 grams of carb, which again made me think of you.
Melanie Avalon:
I'm like, wait a minute, that's my diet. That's like literally my diet you just listed. Did he copy it from you? I was actually thinking, I was like, have we talked about our diet? I probably have talked to him about it.
Vanessa Spina:
Funny because his idea of it was to gain some weight, that he wanted to put some fat back on his face and that's why he was doing it.
Melanie Avalon:
So when you say weight, you mean fat, you don't mean muscle?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, like his team wants him to put some more like fat or something collagen or something in his face so that he doesn't because that's, I think that is one thing that can happen when people get really, really lean. It leans out your face and they found that it was making him look older and he was getting some like feedback on that. So it was just funny that he was doing high carb, high protein to gain some fat, but I don't think that he has because he doesn't look any thicker to me anyway. But Dr. John Jake, which was shocked that he was doing this diet. So I brought it up to him. And when I interviewed Dr. John Jake, which he said, yeah, he, so when John, when Dave said that to him, John Jake, which said what the F and also he sourced so many times honor episode that I had to text my editor during it. And then he realized I was doing that. He said, I just hit my F limit, my F bomb limit. Didn't I? Like it was crazy how many times he said that F word, but we're going to have to try to add bleeps or something because there were so many that we can't like cut it out. So it was really interesting just to hear all these things of how they were each approaching, you know, diet. And oh, so then Dave said, when he eats his a hundred gram protein meals, he eats them with tons and tons of enzymes because he says, you know, if you're eating all the protein, you still may not be getting all the amino acids and you really need to eat all the enzymes. And I remember that you do that. I take a little bit with my high protein meals, but I remember you take a lot and I wanted to ask you about that.
Melanie Avalon:
So I take betaine HCl, yeah. So I use that and I use digestive enzymes and they are a game changer for me. They help so much with digestion.
Vanessa Spina:
So I take one gram of HCl, and then I take three of the mass zymes by bi -optimizers, but I don't know what that is equivalent to. I really can't wait for you to make some enzymes, though.
Melanie Avalon:
So my currently big project has been spirulina. I think when this comes out, spirulina should be out, which is very exciting. But that's some sort of all -consuming. But my next really big project I want to do in the supplement world is I want to do a digestive supplement line. I'm so excited. I have a very specific take on it that I want to do that I'm not really seeing anybody do. So I basically want to, I'm not gonna tell you yet what it is, but I basically want to make the enzymes that I currently take and love. And tailor them towards this idea that I have. People do love mass enzymes but by optimizers. I currently have been taking pure encapsulations, their betaine HCL pepsin, as well as their digestive enzymes ultra. And I really, really like those. So the betaine HCL has 520 milligrams of HCL, 21 milligrams of pepsin in one capsule. So you said you take how much?
Vanessa Spina:
I take one gram of HCL right now, the start
Melanie Avalon:
the meal. I'm a really bad person to ask. I don't count and I just take intuitively what feels right which is a lot of them. Yeah, I really don't count and I don't want to put a number out there because I take a lot.
Vanessa Spina:
Like mass times, they recommend three, but I'm wondering, like, how many is Dave taking? How many are you taking?
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so okay, with I can comment more on the, well, actually, I'll comment first on the HCL a little bit more. The test that people say to do is basically like, take the HCL, keep taking capsules until you feel burning. Step back from that because that means you're at your limit. And by the way, this is not this is not you don't have to like worry, because that sounds really scary, like burning. It's just because it's it's sounds really dangerous. It's just essentially stomach acid. So it's okay, you're basically, you're basically realizing where you're at the point of enough stomach acid. What's interesting for me is I really feel like I could just keep taking the HCL and I would never even I don't really ever, ever get any burning and I take a ton but I'm eating it with massive protein meals and I wonder if that has something to do with it. Because it's, you know, just digesting the protein basically.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I had a naturopath on who said that exact same thing. I can't remember his name in this moment, but he was great. And he said, he gets people to do 500 milligrams and then one gram, 1 .5. Like just keep adding until you get to that point where you get some, like, is it a little bit of acid reflux or something?
Melanie Avalon:
Ironically, it shouldn't be acid reflux because you're digesting your food, so it's not really creating that issue of coming back up, which is acid reflux, but you'll feel a burning in your stomach, basically, which sounds scary again, but it'll be okay. What's interesting though, because I'm thinking about this more, I actually require a little bit less. If I do a complete carnivore meal, I actually require a little bit less than when I'm having it with all the fruit and cucumbers because I think the produce dilutes that HCl a bit. The pH is probably different that it's combating compared to when I am just eating meat and it's just that substrate, I require actually less HCl. For the enzymes, I know Matt and Wade at Bioptimizers, I mean, they talk about this a lot, how they'll take just tons and tons and tons, and I take tons and tons and tons. I take, like I said, currently the pure encapsulations, digestive enzymes, ultra. I don't experience any negative side effects from over. You don't get like a burning or anything with the enzymes like you do with HCl. The way I see it is that the more I add, the better I'm digesting the protein, and if there is like residual enzymes, that's just digesting more stuff and maybe even having a systemic effect. Maybe not because it's with my food. So I would say for listeners, if they feel like they're taking enzymes and it's not quite working, well, first of all, look at the quality and the brand that you're taking, but then beyond that, definitely try upping your dose and see if it helps. I take handfuls of this stuff. You said you take how many of the enzymes? Like a couple of capsules, three.
Vanessa Spina:
The massimes by optimizers, it says to take three within meal.
Melanie Avalon:
If you're struggling with the digestion, I would definitely try upping it. There's like two approaches you could go, long and slow, so you could try adding a little bit more each meal or Vanessa, you could try a meal where you just take a ton and see what happens and that would actually be like one meal that would give you a lot of feedback. It would give you a lot of feedback on what taking a lot does.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, see, I think most people probably need enzymes when they're doing high protein because like for myself, you know, most of my adult life, I was vegetarian. So I think my stomach acid got pretty low. And so did my all the proteases, lipases, I was barely eating protein or fat. So I took them a lot when I started doing high protein. But now I'm wondering, like, is my body actually breaking all the protein I eat down? Because there's so much of it. And then am I getting all the amino acids? So I'm just like trying to figure out, for those of us who eat, you know, the big protein boluses, like, there's no, no one ever talks about this, right? Like, you don't learn this, I didn't learn it in nutrition, school or anything in sports nutrition, either. Like, how do you make sure that you are actually getting all the amino acids into your bloodstream, you know, and you're not just like having them all missing out on some of them, I guess.
Melanie Avalon:
such a good point and I do think it probably a good place to start is I mean it sounds vague but like do you feel like you're digesting at all well or do you feel on the flip side like you have digestive issues or is it feels like you're sitting in your stomach right like blowing
Vanessa Spina:
gas indications would be that it's not you're not fully breaking it down or feeling heavy after a meal or that kind of thing.
Melanie Avalon:
People don't know this often, but our gut bacteria can ferment protein if it reaches the large intestine. So if you're having gas and bloating from a primarily protein -rich meal, especially if there's not a lot of fiber or other substrates with it, then that means there probably is a significant amount of protein that's reaching your large intestine that wasn't completely absorbed because it's being fermented by gut bacteria.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and I've had a couple of guests on the show to talk about that, and that's what I'm curious is, in that instance, is it just too much protein being consumed or is it a lack of enzymes? Probably requiring more enzymes. Your gut wouldn't ferment amino acids.
Melanie Avalon:
your intestinal cells are not going to ferment amino acids.
Vanessa Spina:
I've got bacteria.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it would be the gut bacteria and the colon. What's interesting about that point is that both camps will use that as arguments for both ways. I've heard low -carb people being like, you can actually ferment protein. But then I've also heard people deconstruct that and say, no, it's actually the byproducts of that have negative metabolic effects compared to the byproducts of fermenting fiber and carbs.
Vanessa Spina:
I think it's negative because your body would then be producing sulfide, like it would be producing sulfuric acid, which is, you know, ammonia is an issue, I think. It's probably a conversation we should have more, but like your body has to sequester the nitrogen that you break down when you break down protein in the liver, into urea, and then sort of package it up as urea and excrete it as urine, and it has to sequester that because it is toxic. So if you are having issues breaking down protein or you are eating a lot of protein and you're creating a lot of ammonia and sulfuric acid, it's probably not a good thing.
Melanie Avalon:
That's intuitively. I mean, because I remember when I first heard that and I was like, oh, yay, see, I can just eat the protein. But my gut instinct is leans more towards what you're saying, for sure. My no pun intended. Mom puns. Literal.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it was just so fascinating to hear them talk about what they do exactly. And then last little bit, so when I had John on the show, I was like, so what did you think of Dave's diet? What do you say? It's kind of a little bit like gossipy comment. Like he said, oh, I think he's like getting ready to maybe market a product. But he said the reason he got so lean is because he was basically just eating amino acids, like essential amino acids. And that's it.
Melanie Avalon:
That would probably do it.
Vanessa Spina:
I'm like, so that's like the ultimate protein sparrow. No, and I like, and then I like, so are you going to try his high carb diet? And he was like, F no. It was kind of funny episode, actually.
Melanie Avalon:
It's so funny. I want to listen to that.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because when they were talking, it really, I really thought they were good friends. And then like when I asked them about it, but I think that's also maybe how men kind of are like with each other, like they'll make fun of each other. And it's not taken in a bad way. It's like a loving thing. Like my P always says when their friends make fun of each other, that's how they express affection. So, you know, whereas like women would never do that, never express affection by making fun of a friend, but men are wired a little bit differently when it comes to that. Anyway, yeah, it was interesting. Just all the talk about OMAD, that study and the enzymes. And then I really wanted to ask you about, you know, your routine. And I think it's probably just a conversation that should be had more because it's not being had very often. Like it was, it was almost shocking for me to hear Dave talking about that. And then talking about how he takes all these enzymes, you know, because you just don't, you just, that's just not really part of the conversation a lot. And it should be because we're talking so much about optimizing that protein intake, but optimizing it isn't just eating as much protein as you can, right? It's also making sure you're absorbing it and breaking it down, et cetera.
Melanie Avalon:
It's so true. And what's funny is I'm just so, like I said, I'm so accustomed and used to taking massive amounts of enzymes. I forget that most people are not taking enzymes, definitely not in the amounts I'm taking them. Okay, but you're not eating like...
Vanessa Spina:
a bottle of meal.
Melanie Avalon:
in a bottle.
Vanessa Spina:
Like maybe a week.
Melanie Avalon:
Maybe. Okay. So let's see. So one of the 90 caps bottles. Yeah, probably a week, which would be like a dozen or so caps a meal, maybe a little bit more than that.
Vanessa Spina:
OK, that's not out of I mean, that's I could easily go from three to twelve. I was like having a hard time imagining swallowing a literal handful, like half a bottle or something at a meal. I was like, I can't do that.
Melanie Avalon:
It's just muscle memory for me now. Literally, I don't even think about it. All this fine, all this fine. It's probably more than 12 for me, but let's try 12 for you.
Vanessa Spina:
Let's try 12 and I'm going to report back if I notice any differences. But lately I feel like I've been adding in so many things, like I've been adding in spirulina and that's like another thing I have to make sure to do every day and then adding in collagen with my new collagen. I've been doing that. It's not something I was taking before. I'm adding in spirulina, collagen, chlorella before bed and there's like several other things I feel like I've been adding in lately. So HCL, just like so many things to swallow, you know, there's just like so many pills and things, but I think it's worth it.
Melanie Avalon:
I always dread when you're filling out, because I'm always, I was doing this last night, I'm always filling out these health intake forms because I'm trying products like left and right. And a lot of them are like blood work tests or the thing I was trying last night was this true diagnostic epigenetic age test and you always have to fill out this, you know, health intake form. I dread when I get to the supplement page where it's like, what supplements are you taking? I'm like, can I just not answer this? Because, and then especially with the ones where they want the details, like, you know, the amount and the frequency, I'm like, I can't, this is, I can't, this is too much. I can't, I can't fill all this out. I can't wait to send you my spirulina. It's almost done. Me too. It's almost done. I will say though, just comment quickly on the Dave thing. Since I recorded with him at his house in his kitchen, I can attest to the fact that his, his kitchen was, there were so many supplements. Just like everywhere. Just like on the counters everywhere. I was like, oh, okay, he definitely is taking these things.
Vanessa Spina:
I think Ray, do you follow Ray Kurzweil, Dr. Ray Kurzweil at all? Oh, it rings. Is he the rings a bell? He's the guy he came up with the singularity concept like when we will merge with
Melanie Avalon:
computer intelligence. Oh wait, I think I've listened to him. Has he been on Rogan? Oh yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
for sure. He's a fascinating individual, but I watched a documentary on him maybe like 15 years ago. He's the super positive guy. He's like super positive. So one of his best friends or close friends, I know who you're thinking of, the inventor of the XPRIZE. He is the super positive. Peter Diamandis.
Melanie Avalon:
I just remember when I listened to the interview with Ray that he was so like, some of the things he was saying sounded like pretty dark, but he was just kind of like really chipper about like everything.
Vanessa Spina:
And when you say super positive person, like Peter Diamandis comes to mind. Yeah, he does. He does come to mind. So positive about the future. And like, I just love that energy. Like I, I could be around it all day long. Anyways, they were in, they were both in that documentary together. Oh, cool. Wait, which, what was the documentary? I can't remember. I have to find it because it was 15 years ago. But all I remember is they were showing Ray and he was taking at least a hundred pills a day and he took them multiple times a day. And it was just like, I think the documentary was honoring him, but they were also kind of shadily, like just throwing in these shots of him constantly, like taking pills as a way to be like, okay, like he thinks he's going to live forever, but do you want to be taking this many pills a day? Like, is that a life that you want to be living forever? But I don't like taking supplements. I don't like taking a lot, but there really are, I think some that are super essential and then I kind of rotate them where I'm like, okay, these are my priority right now. I think what I love about spirulina though, just as a final comment on that is that it replaces my CoQ10 and fish oil. Like, even though I don't really take that, but I still feel good. It replaced it and it replaces it, a green supplement and also just a multivitamin. So for me, it's like, yeah, I have to take like 15 to 30 tablets of it, but it replaces so many things that I think it's worth it.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I love the spirulina for that reason, that it's literally, it's crazy how much it's a nutrient powerhouse. It's just crazy. It's just like pure nutrients. Like you said, you don't need the multivitamin. I wouldn't, I mean, I understand that you feel comfortable doing it, just for listeners. I wouldn't advocate it to replace a fish oil pill because it's not, I mean, it's very low fat. So you're not really getting a lot of fat from it. So it's not like an omega, it's not a hardcore omega -3 source or anything, but it has, it does have those and it has specifically the, has that other special type of omega?
Vanessa Spina:
It has an omega -6 that basically the body treats as an omega -3.
Melanie Avalon:
The omega -3 that it does have, it has the EPA DHA forum, which is, you know, harkening to the types of omega -3s that you're getting from, you know, animal food, like fish specifically, which is great. And for listeners, so when this airs, that should already be out, which is very, very exciting. So you can get the spirulina at avlonx .us. Use the coupon code MelanieAvlon to get 10% off. And if you would like to get on my email list to get announcements about the newest supplements, because I am really excited, I am going to be creating a digestive supplement line in the future, get on my email list at avlonx .us slash email list. And you can actually also get text updates if you text avlonx to 877 -861 -8318. And when you do that, you will also get a 20% off coupon code that we text you. So that's pretty exciting. And for Vanessa, you also mentioned the collagen. How can people get your supplements?
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I'm super excited about the collagen. It is the first collagen I found that has clinical grade RCTs behind it. It's amazing for really pumping up the collagen in the skin and even improving the appearance of cellulite. So I'm actually taking it. And like I said, I hate taking supplements. But for anyone who's interested, we are going to do an exclusive launch discount and everything just like we did for tone protein. And you can sign up for it at toneprotein .com. And that's for tone collagen, which will be out very soon.
Melanie Avalon:
so, so exciting because then I'm just thinking, basically supplements I take, I take during the day like seropeptase. I don't take, I'm not like Ray or Dave with, you know, these millions and millions. Really during the day it's like seropeptase, berberine. Those are like my fasting ones that I really, really take. And then like with food, spirulina, but I think of that more as a food, honestly. Like I chew it, I eat like a food. I don't, do you chew it and eat it or do you swallow it, the spirulina?
Vanessa Spina:
I just swallow it. But Luca likes to chew it, which is really cute. It's his medicine, right? Yeah, the medicine every night is like I gotta have my medicine.
Melanie Avalon:
So cute, I love it. Ooh, I wonder what he'll think of. Will you let me know what he thinks of the mermaid on the bag?
Vanessa Spina:
Oh yeah, for sure.
Melanie Avalon:
I definitely will. He'll love that. I need Luca's thoughts on this bag.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, but as a mom, it makes me feel so good because we really prioritize protein with him and nutrient -dense foods, but I don't really get in all the veggies, and it's hard to do that with kids, but he has two, I think, tablets of spirulina, sometimes a bit of chlorella, and I've heard it compared to one pound of vegetables and nutrients in it, and I believe that from how nutrient -dense it is. It makes me feel so good that he likes it, and it's a thing that we do together every night before bed or sometimes in the morning, and I'm definitely going to do that with Damien as well, so I mean, there's just so many reasons to love it.
Melanie Avalon:
It's, it's amazing. Oh, it also is a vegan source of B12, which is amazing. I mentioned this on a prior podcast, but similar to you, like, I remember when I first read the late like really looked at the label for the back of the bag about what was in it nutrient wise. And I was like, is this right? Like it doesn't like it literally didn't seem like it was possible to have that many nutrients like 600% of like certain, you know, RDAs and stuff. So yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing. That was super fun. When does your episode air with John?
Vanessa Spina:
I think it should be coming out in the next two to three weeks. So that's like sometime, probably when this episode is coming out and that's Dr. John Jaquish. Perfect.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, he's definitely a character as both he and Dave have really intense personalities. So them together would be a conversation for sure.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it was definitely...
Melanie Avalon:
entertaining. All right. Shall we go into some fasting questions? I would love to. So I'm really excited about these questions. So I got this from my Facebook group and it's three questions slash comments. I'll read all of them and we can just address it together. So Stephanie wanted to know, she said, I've heard that fasting is not good as you get older, is that true? And then Susan commented, she said, my mother is 78. She's been fasting for five years. She says she feels healthier and better now than she ever did in her forties and fifties. And then Karen said, I'm 64. I've been fasting for about five years. I feel great. I do think longer fast on a consistent basis may not be too good. I think the same could be said for exercise, light cardio and some strength training is good, but going to hardcore can affect us negatively. Looking forward to hearing this episode for an expert's perspective. And then Lizzie, oh, there's actually more comments than three. Lizzie said, what are the health benefits for 70 plus year olds? Are there many people you hear of that have been fasting for 20 or more years?
Vanessa Spina:
I think it can be confusing when you hear lots of different sources saying different things. There's obviously a lot of research supporting the benefits of intermittent fasting and fasting as well, but I think it depends on what your goal is with it. Some people are doing it for autophagy. Some people are doing it for fat loss. Some people are doing it for longevity. It kind of depends what you're optimizing for because it may or may not be the best way to achieve that. But at the end of the day, I always go back to you have to see how you feel and assess it for yourself because there can be so many studies done on these things, but at the end of the day, do you like it? Do you enjoy it? Do you feel energized, happy, productive? Do you feel your best self when you're doing it? Or do you feel miserable watching the clock, white knuckling it? And I think if you're feeling great on it, then obviously it's working well for you. If your labs are looking good and improving, et cetera. But if you are literally white knuckling it through your fasting window, then that may be not only creating stress, but just you're not enjoying your day. So what's the point of doing it, right? So I really think it comes down to subjective experience. I do want to note though, as well, that one of the concerns for people who are over the age of 40 that I often bring up is Dr. Don Lehman, who is an amino acid scientist, protein expert. He always commented that he does not think fasting is very well indicated for people who are over 40 because it's harder to maintain muscle. It's something I actually asked Dr. John Jaquish about in our podcast funnily enough, because I wanted to know his opinion because he does so much fasting and he's so well versed in the science of muscle. And this guy has more muscles, like he's got muscles on his muscles. He's like...
Melanie Avalon:
You go to the dictionary like muscle and it's like see john jake wish.
Vanessa Spina:
Exactly. And he does a lot of fasting. So I asked him what he thought about it. And he believes that fasting, there are certain metabolites or molecules that are protective of muscle. We've seen that people talk about growth hormone, people talk about ketones having a muscle sparing effect. He monitors his muscle growth and retention with computers. I think his latest, he's constantly doing not only DEXA but all kinds of different analysis because he wants to grow muscle. And that's his brand. He's the guy who can build muscle. So he thinks that it's malarkey. Basically, he thinks that anyone who says that you're going to burn off all your muscle if you fast is wrong. So it's really interesting to hear people's different takes on it. But I did recently hear Dr. Don Lehman saying that when he refers to fasting, it's over 48 hours. So for people who are really concerned about losing muscle, as long as they keep it under 48 hours, then that shouldn't be too much of a concern. But I just wanted to bring up that aspect because I know that it's a reason that a lot of people who are over 40 do have concerns about the effects of fasting. But there's also a lot of opinionated people in this space who are either praising intermittent fasting or tearing it down constantly. And I know it can be confusing hearing people's different opinions on it. So I'd love to hear some of the research that you were looking at, Melanie.
Melanie Avalon:
Well, first of all, I'm glad that's it's such a good testimonial. It's so true. Like looking at somebody like John Jake, which who has so much muscle and he, like you said, he clearly practices intermittent fasting, right? Daily, like he has one meal a day.
Vanessa Spina:
He has one meal a day, and then when he did the interview with Dave, he had just finished a three -day dry fast, and he does those pretty often. He was saying, wow, that's intense.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so yeah, that's a really good example. My thoughts were really similar to yours. So my initial thoughts before I like sat down did research was, I think in general intermittent fasting is wonderful for for people who are older, especially because we have often have more and more metabolic issues as we age, like our bodies, because when we're younger, you know, our bodies are more adept at kind of dealing with the often horrible onslaught that we throw at them with our diets and our environment and our lifestyle, like they deal like they're amazing they, but behind the scenes, things might be creeping up that will lead to problems in the future. So while we may not viscerally experience it, when we're younger, with creeping up blood sugar levels, you know, progressively rising insulin levels, you know, potentially negative effects with our lipid panels, down the road, when we get older, the body doesn't always put up with that forever. And these issues, unless we implement dietary lifestyle choices that change it tend to get worse with age rather than better. So something like fasting that can have profound effects on our metabolic health, I think can be incredible for older the older population. And then we just know about all these benefits, especially, I'll go into some of the studies that I found, but actually before that, the one thing I was thinking, though, and it's what you were just talking about as well, is that we do know that, you know, we need more and more protein as we get older, like that the requirement is raised, and preservation of muscle is so important for healthy aging, it's so strongly correlated to disease and mortality, as in, you know, low muscle mass being a problem. So the focus on protein, I think is so important. And so you definitely want to make sure with intermittent fasting, because you're eating in a smaller time window, that you're definitely getting enough protein in that window. And going back to what we were talking about earlier, this is perfect, that you can digest it. So making sure that when you're an older adult, that you're getting an ample protein and you know, doing digestive support so that you do with some like those amino acids, I think can be really important. So I did sit down and try to find some studies on this. And I found a really good review. So it was from 2021. It was called the effects of intermittent fasting regimens and middle age and older adults current state of evidence. They did make a note that they said basically they wanted and I'm, I'm talking in like more, you know, casual terminology, but they wanted to make it for like adults age 65 and older, I think, but that there's like less studies on the even like the older people get. So they looked at studies for people who are 50 and older, they looked through hundreds of studies, but the ones that met their criteria, they found four studies on quote, time restricted eating, which had windows from six to 12 hours. And then they found three studies on five to what was really interesting was that they said they also wanted to include studies on alternate day fasting, but none met their criteria. But I always considered five to alternate day fasting. Do you consider five to a form of alternate day fasting? Yes.
Vanessa Spina:
But in a sense, I'll always consider a day that you're eating food to be more of a low calorie diet.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, right. Because with 5 .2, on 5 .2 isn't an optional or to eat up to 500 calories on those days or...
Vanessa Spina:
I think most people eat 500 calories.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, five. So, okay. That's a good point. In any case, looking through these studies, here are some of the takeaways that they found. So they concluded that a growing body of evidence supports the promise of fasting regimens for middle -aged and older adults. They found that the time -restricted eating studies, so that was where people were doing eating windows, like six to 12 hours, they said they were particularly well -tolerated and that they produced modest weight loss when they were practiced on a daily basis. For 5 .2 specifically, they found that that form produced clinically meaningful weight loss. It had less consistent effects on metabolic parameters. That said that there were relatively few adverse events. The worst side effect they found in the older adults was a heightened risk of hypoglycemia, so more risk for low blood sugar episodes in patients with type 2 diabetes. So basically, in the older population where they have poor glycemic control already, the fasting, they did see some cases where they actually got low blood sugar issues. They did address that, and they said that maybe a way for people to basically work with that was to just take a slower approach to implementing intermittent fasting that maybe with the setup of the studies that people with type 2 diabetes, it was just kind of too much of a shock to the system, and that's why people were getting low blood sugar episodes. So they did posit that as a potential solution there. They said, oh yeah, here's where they said that they couldn't find any studies that tested the effects of alternate day fasting or alternate day modified fasting approaches in older adults. They did find, so benefits -wise, they did find, besides the weight loss, that there seemed to consistently be beneficial effects on blood pressure, which is super important because that's really heavily tied to cardiovascular health, and we know that cardiovascular disease is the number one cause of mortality. People think it's cancer, but it's actually cardiovascular disease. They did not find any serious side effects. The worst side effects they found were hypoglycemia episodes that I already mentioned, as well as some constipation. One of the things they talked about that I really appreciated and was something I was thinking about with this question was they talked about all the incredible benefits potentially of calorie restriction for health and longevity, but that there are concerns with that for older adults getting enough nutrients and protein and also preserving muscle. They were saying that intermittent fasting can basically probably create the benefits of calorie restriction without the negative effects of loss of lean muscle and loss of bone density and even potentially malnutrition. They were basically fans of calorie restriction for the older population. What they ended with, though, again, was just this importance of making sure, because of the potential for sarcopenia, that the older adults do get enough protein to support that. Then there were a few other good studies I found. I found a 2020 study called intermittent fasting enhanced the cognitive function in older adults with mild cognitive impairment by inducing biochemical and metabolic changes. That was a study that looked at 99 elderly subjects and they were either regularly practicing IF or they were irregularly practicing IF or they were not fasters. This is a cohort study. Basically, they're looking at what people are doing and seeing what's happening. They followed them for three years and they found that the group that was regularly practicing intermittent fasting, they had no cognitive impairment and disease compared to those who were irregularly practicing intermittent fasting or not practicing intermittent fasting. That's amazing. They said that what they saw in the group that was fasting in this older population that could be involved in the prevention of cognitive decline was they had higher levels of superoxide dismutase. They have lower body weight, lower insulin, lower fasting blood sugar, lower C -reactive protein, which is an inflammatory marker in the body, and less DNA damage. They postulated that other ways that IF may be really helping the metabolic pathways for cognitive function was from the use of ketone bodies, so being in the ketogenic state. Also, pyruvate metabolism and effects on the glycolysis and gluconeogenesis pathways. What was super cool was they also found that those who regularly practice IF, they had better cognitive scores and they had better cognitive function also at a 36 -month follow -up. That was cool. Then also, sort of similar, there was a 2024, so very recent, a systemic review. It was called effective time -restricted eating and intermittent fasting on cognitive function and mental health in older adults. It looked at eight studies and their conclusion was that time -restricted eating may have a positive impact on cognitive function and mental health in this older population. They did say that further research was needed though. Basically, the takeaway for me was that we see so many beneficial effects with intermittent fasting in the older population and I really think just as long as you're paying attention to that one concern of making sure you're getting adequate protein and then with things that it was finding with the hypoglycemia and such, making sure you're not going too extreme, finding the pattern that really works for you. If you're having trouble with blood sugar swinging issues, definitely try a continuous glucose monitor. We're major fans of those. It'll be a game changer because it'll give you a clear picture of your blood sugar levels 24 -7 so you can see how your fasting is affecting you, how your food is affecting you and you can adapt accordingly. We really love Nutrisense. You can go to Nutrisense .com slash ifpodcast and use the code ifpodcast. That will get you $50 off, so definitely check that out. For Lizzie's question about, are there many people you hear of that have been fasting for 20 or more years? I'm trying to think if I personally, personally know anybody who have been doing it for 20 or more years. The ironic thing is as a species, we just were doing this as our life for a long time. As far as many people, there's been millions of people who have done this for 20 or more years. I'm just trying to think if I actually know anybody personally. I've been doing it. Oh, that's crazy. I've been doing it since 20 ... I've been doing it since 20. 10? So I've been doing it 14 years. Oh, wow. That's weird. How about you, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's been around the same amount of time.
Melanie Avalon:
Do you know anybody like who's been practicing it for like over 20 years probably?
Vanessa Spina:
But I don't feel like it's something that I talk about with them, but I do know a lot of people who do OMAD Carnivore have been doing it for a long time. It's hard to know other than myself and you and probably like Cynthia and Jen. Because I just don't know that many people personally in my actual life who do intermittent fasting. I think a lot of my friends and family are starting to get interested in it now, which is interesting.
Melanie Avalon:
I feel like it started becoming really popular in the past five years or so, maybe. Once we fast forward another decade, I think there'll be a lot of people who've been doing it over 20 years who are talking about it. Because to your point, I think a lot of people do it, but in the past, it wasn't something that was something to talk about, it was just the way people ate. But now it's this whole thing that's in the news and the studies and we have a podcast about it that we've had for, you know, six years or so, seven years, I don't know, when did the show come out? A long time ago. So I think there are a lot of people and there's probably a lot more that aren't talking about it as well. So, okay. Any other thoughts?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think you covered it really well. Thank you for looking up all those studies.
Melanie Avalon:
Love getting these questions and then it's always just so fun to sit down and be like What's gonna come up like I'm always really curious like what's gonna come up when I sit down with Google Scholar and have a moment So for listeners if you would like to submit your own questions for the show You can directly email questions at I a podcast calm or you can go to I a podcast calm and you could submit questions There also definitely join me in my Facebook group, which is called if biohackers You can ask questions in that group as well I also post a lot in that group and ask for questions and for thoughts on things and we share it on this show So definitely check that out and the show notes will be at I have podcast comm slash episode 377 those show notes will have a full transcript and also links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out You can follow us on Instagram. We are I have podcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is ketogenic girl I think that's all the things anything from you Vanessa before we go
Vanessa Spina:
This episode was so much fun, like always, and I'm looking forward to the next one.
Melanie Avalon:
Me too, thank you. I will talk to you next week. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
STUFF WE LIKE
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
LINKS
BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com
Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!