Welcome to Episode 383 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
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SHOW NOTES
APOLLO NEURO: For 15% off go to ifpodcast.com/apollo and use promo code IFPODCAST.
BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get salmon, chicken breast or steak tips—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!
Listener Q&A: Erin - [I've been] tasting that metallic ketone taste in my mouth shortly after my meal. I haven’t heard you discuss this phenomenon... Any thoughts?
Listener Q&A: Andrea - Is organic “nitrate free” deli style meat safe to eat in large quantities?
Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 383 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode 383 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I am great. How are you? I'm good. I'm torn because I just thought of a few different things I want to tell you, and I'm torn about which to tell you. I don't want to have none of them all. Okay, rapid fire, rapid fire, thing one. I'm a little bit concerned about all the packages that are coming soon because last week, okay, backtracking. What type of water do you drink?
Vanessa Spina:
me up so much. I drink typically spring water. I buy it in glass bottles. It's carbonated but we also have a filter that we put on our water system in our house here. So it's basically like filtered water from the water reservoir which is quite good in Prague and then I carbonate that myself. That's what I'm drinking right now. How about you?
Melanie Avalon:
Okay, that's incredible. I would have a water system, but I'm in an apartment. So I only drink the glass bottled water. It's like what I drink. I drink still spring water. There's like a brand here in the US called Mountain Valley. And then Whole Foods has a brand of I think Italian water, regardless. That's what I drink. I drink the water bottles and glass. And then last week, all the Whole Foods didn't have any water. It was like going away. Like every time I went, there was like less water bottles and glass and then less and glass. And I was like, what is happening? So and Whole Foods carries a their own store brand line that's from Europe as well, which is amazing. And then last week, I noticed that because I go every day and I get water bottles and glass, it's kind of like part of my resistance training. Like you carry around your kids, I go get like 24 glass water bottles. Like they're my kids. And I noticed they were like going away. Like there was like less and less and less. And I was like, what is happening? Where's the water going? And I was having like a panic moment. I was having flashbacks to COVID of like stock up on the toilet paper, but it was like the glass water bottles. And I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. So I kind of like panic ordered. I like sought out the company, this Mountain Valley company. And I realized I could order direct from them. And I was like, I cannot run out of water. So I ordered so much water. Like so much. I don't even know how much water I ordered that's coming. We're talking like maybe 100 glass bottles. And the thing is now Whole Foods has their water back. So I think tomorrow and I kind of like panics. I found one Whole Foods that had lots of water. So I went there and I just took their entire inventory. So I'm already like stocked up on water now. And now tomorrow, I think I have 100 bottles showing up. So there's a lot of water coming.
Vanessa Spina:
I think you're sorted if there's any kind of emergency then.
Melanie Avalon:
So I'm like, I'm good. I know, but I'm like, it's coming. It's coming. And I just, I just heard that I had a package to the door and I was like, is that the water? Didn't get a great workout for sure. Oh, I know. I know. So water. So if you're ever thirsty, you know where to go. Have you had that panic moment where like you think something's running out?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, but for me, it's more like I see sales like when when there's a sale on something, I buy like everything. We have like this assortment of different things like right now, my protein pudding I have this chocolate protein pudding that I love and it went on sale like a month ago. So I bought like everything. It was like half price. So I wanted so many of them and they're not cheap. So my fridge, we have like this double door fridge and we've had so many people visiting us in the past six weeks and they're all like what is with you in the puddings because like they open and there's like a hundred puddings and I'm like, I'm not obsessed with them. They just were on sale. And they've been taking up so much room in our fridge that I'm like, I'm really excited because I'm starting to get through them like we're going to have more space for other things in the fridge. But yeah, I I will buy whenever there's a sale, I like stock up on things. So and yeah, if something is getting discontinued or you know, I definitely stockpile things but I also find it really helpful. I started doing something the last few years, which is whenever I'm buying like makeup or anything for like the beauty or face anything for the bathroom like toiletries, I guess I always buy three of them at a time and I just keep them in the bathroom. So I have like this stockpile. So whenever I run out of my foundation or mascara or lipstick, I just open the drawer and there's a box there and they're all like stacked nicely and it's really nice because you know, whenever you're running low on something, I'm like, I have to order it and just I try to buy threes of everything, threes or fours of everything.
Melanie Avalon:
That's a smart system. And I just realized I do that system with, I do that with everything makeup mostly and everything food, honestly, like have the, have the backup. I don't like to be, I don't like to be on like, uh, we only got one, you know, one layer of this.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and it makes me feel really abundant.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Yeah, it does. I like it because you are. Yeah. I'm actually about to start reading. Um, I had a call yesterday, question, cause I have a lot of like calls with brands and stuff. And do you ever get on a call and you kind of realize halfway through the call that maybe it was more of an important call than you thought? Cause I don't really like I'm meeting with so many people all the time. I don't really prep the calls that much. Like I don't really look them up beforehand. I just jump on the call and like, cause I figured they'll, they'll tell me about themselves. Like when I talked to them. So like yesterday I was having a call and then he started talking about like working with the United nations and like Deepak Chopra. And I was like, Oh, I feel like I should have done some research here. Point being, I'm going to start reading Deepak's new book called abundance. Have you heard of it?
Vanessa Spina:
I love him. I love his voice and listening to his audiobooks.
Melanie Avalon:
Well, apparently this one is about financial abundance and I'm really excited to read it.
Vanessa Spina:
That's great. He just has the most soothing voice ever. Do you ever listen to him on audio? I actually
Melanie Avalon:
I don't know that I actually have and my sister's obsessed with him. So I'm excited to read read this book
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I love him and I love his soothing voice. It's just, yeah, he's amazing. How old?
Melanie Avalon:
What is he, I, he seems like, he seems timeless.
Vanessa Spina:
He must be in his 60s or something now, because I've been listening to him since university. Oh, nice.
Melanie Avalon:
It's very, very nice.
Vanessa Spina:
But yeah, that sounds like a great book.
Melanie Avalon:
I will let you know and I think I'll save my other story. My other story has to do with something crazy that happened with chat GPT. I got in another argument with it and it's, it's crazy what it said to me. I'm still recovering. So that's a teaser for next week. Anything new in your life?
Vanessa Spina:
I mean, we've been working on the collagen, tone collagen. I'm super excited about it. I think it's launching in August. So I'm not sure when it's.
Melanie Avalon:
coming out. This comes out August 19th. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
It might be out right now. I'm not sure on the exact day, but it's supposed to be in early to mid-August, so it might be out right now, but I'm super excited about it. I'm just so excited about the research behind it. It has randomized controlled trials behind it, and I'm loving taking it every day. We added hyaluronic acid in it, which it turns out, for years, I was taking things topically that had hyaluronic acid in it, and I found out more recently through research that it's such a large molecule, you actually have to eat it. We added hyaluronic acid into it, and that has also a ton of scientific evidence behind it showing that it improves the appearance of the skin and reduces fine lines and wrinkles by 15% to 20%. I'm really excited. I've been on this skin health journey with red light, and I've been wearing my red light therapy mask, and I've been getting lots of compliments on my skin, and now I think adding this in is going to be... I'm just really excited to see what it's going to do for myself. I'm also excited for anyone who tries it, but it's so cool when there actually is research, because there are so many things that people market and sell that have no evidence behind it at all. I think, especially these days with social media and things like the social media platform with the... It's getting banned. What is it called? TikTok? Yeah, with TikTok. You see these videos. I'm not on TikTok, but people send me things, and it's like, oh my gosh, people are just making stuff up, and they can make up anything and make these claims and put it in a TikTok video, and people will believe it. You really want to find the stuff that actually has scientific backing and evidence, so you don't waste your money on things. I think it's really exciting that it has so much evidence. One of my favorite protein researchers, Dr. Jose Antonio, he has this hilarious Instagram account, and in his stories, every day he posts reels and videos like that that people make where they're trying to sell stuff, and he just debunks it in five seconds. He's like, this is a lie. This is not true. Especially there's this one testosterone supplement that all these guys are selling, saying that it turns you into this testosterone raging beast of a man, and he's just like, this is totally made up.
Melanie Avalon:
by this. Do you know a supplement it was? I'm just curious because I've been researching that recently.
Vanessa Spina:
Honga, Ali or something.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, do you know what the ingredient is?
Vanessa Spina:
Actually, Huberman, I think, may have promoted it incorrectly. I think Jose was telling me that. It's called Tonga Ali, and that's the marketing name, and it's all over social media. And there's these people make these videos showing this guy, who's just like this average guy, and he takes Tonga Ali or whatever, and then he turns into this muscle-bound, raging testosterone-fueled guy, and it's just not true at all. So it's crazy what you put. You can make an Instagram reel or a TikTok video or a post or whatever and just say whatever you want, and people will believe it. So you really don't want to waste your money on things and find stuff that actually has scientific evidence. And if it has randomized control trials behind it, placebo-controlled, double-blind, randomized placebo-controlled studies showing that it actually made a difference compared to placebo, that's something worth spending your money on, because things are expensive these days, but you really want to invest in yourself, invest in things that have the backing. So I'm really excited about it. That's pretty much what I've been working on. The last week's the packaging of it, which I love, which we were talking about before. We both love the packaging on our latest things. So yeah, that's pretty much mostly what I've been working on.
Melanie Avalon:
I love it so much. Could not agree more about the ingredients and you'll be proud. I, I got out your red light mask and I was like, going to use it. I was going to, like, I was like ready. And then I realized I had to charge it the first time. And so now it's charged. So maybe, okay, today, today, today's the day I'm feeling it.
Vanessa Spina:
And I want to know if you think it looks cute because I definitely think it's not a creepy looking mask and I'm proud of that because a lot of them are really creepy looking.
Melanie Avalon:
hard goal or task.
Vanessa Spina:
there was one that I was testing that was so creepy looking. And I think I was doing a call with Scott and I like put it on and he was like, whoa. I was like, all wearing this and see if I freak him out.
Melanie Avalon:
That's so funny. I love that. Assuming your supplement is out now, your collagen, even if it's not, how can people – what's the links and the codes and all the things for everything?
Vanessa Spina:
If you go to toneprotein .com, you can sign up and you will receive the launch discount, which will be the biggest discount that we do on it. And that if you sign up at toneprotein .com, you'll be added on the list. And if it's already out, you can probably go right to MD Logic and find Tone College in there. But if you sign up on the email list, you will get that launch discount.
Melanie Avalon:
for it. Awesome. And how about the red light mask? Oh, wow. Thank you.
Vanessa Spina:
for asking. That's at ketogenicgirl .com. And hopefully Melanie is going to send me a photo of what she looks like in the mask. So we can see if it looks creepy or not. Let us know if she thinks it looks creepy or not, or if she thinks it looks cute.
Melanie Avalon:
Wait, maybe, maybe, because I don't know. Well, I think you know this. You probably know this. So those aforementioned business calls. Most people in the world do Zoom, like they do video calls. And I don't. I just don't. I just call in. I call in. I wait for the question of, oh, we can't see you. And I'm like, no, I'm just calling in every time. And it's really awkward. Maybe I could start calling in on video with my red light mask on.
Vanessa Spina:
It would be very aligned with Melanie Avalon, biohacking goddess. Yes.
Melanie Avalon:
I'll be like, I'm sorry, I only do video calls in my red light mask.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, yeah, I need to counteract the counter.
Melanie Avalon:
interact the blue screen lighting. Yes, it would be very unbranded for you. I could have the... Okay, wait. I could have the red light mask and then I could put the blue light blocking glasses on top of that. It would be like all the things.
Vanessa Spina:
Maybe it's a new tool. You could do podcasts in it too. I could.
Melanie Avalon:
Wait a minute.
Vanessa Spina:
I'm telling you, it's semi-cute. You'll have to tell me what you think, but I think it looks, I think it looks
Melanie Avalon:
People keep telling me I need to do a video. Yeah, so well now you definitely have me brainstorming about new podcasting methods.
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I would love that. I think it would be very on brand to watch you and the podcast with it on because it would show your commitment to biohack.
Melanie Avalon:
whoa, whoa, whoa, I have an idea. Whoa. Because I was just saying, okay, here's my idea. Although if I pitch this idea, I can't actually do it. So should I not pitch it? I'll pitch it because I'm not going to do it. So my idea is, because I was thinking there should be like a new biohacking person who always wears a mask and nobody knows who they look like, like who they are. And I was like, I can't do that because I'm already myself. But I was like, wait, I could have an alter ego. I could like start a new
Vanessa Spina:
I think your body is too recognizable. True. Yeah. And like, you have to hide your hair like if people saw your hair and like your arms and your physique, I think would be too recognizable. So that's out for you.
Melanie Avalon:
To wear a wig? Yeah. Good.
Vanessa Spina:
and sweaters, you're sweating to detox.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Oh man. I could like, yeah. Okay. Well, you know, we'll table that for something there for sure.
Vanessa Spina:
I can tell you work in you know the entertainment industry and like your acting background in LA because that sounds like like some new reality show or it sounds like the premise of some like LA show or something like that like the mask the mask singer the mask podcaster or something.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. I'm going to think about this. But like I said, now if it happens, people will be like, she was talking about it. Okay. Shall we jump into some fasting questions? Yeah, that sounds great. All right. So to start things off, we have a question from Erin. And Erin says, Hey, ladies, thanks so much for your podcasts and all the information. I've been clean fasting and doing one meal a day since the second week of January. No loss in the scale weight yet, but I feel like I'm losing inches slowly. I'm still working on the mental aspect of fasting, trying not to think about food so much or overcompensating once my window opens. I've noticed appetite correction working when I eat whole foods, but I am still way overeating when I choose fast food or processed foods. I feel like I could just keep eating and eating, which we can comment on that. But she has another question. She says, anyway, my question has to do with tasting that metallic ketone taste in my mouth shortly after my meal. During the daytime when I'm fasting, I can taste that metallic taste and I know I'm getting into ketosis. Typically, my one meal a day is at night within a couple hours of bedtime. Surprisingly, I've noticed that when I'm lying down for bed at night, only a couple of hours after eating, I can taste ketones that sharp metallic like taste in my mouth and it lasts until I fall asleep. This also happens if I choose to open my window early and have lunch and I'll notice the taste shortly after eating lunch. When I wake up in the morning, I do not typically taste the ketones until later in the day, even though I've tasted them the previous night after my meal. It's strange to me because I eat high carb and I'd assume my body is not in ketosis shortly after a meal. I haven't heard you discuss this phenomenon, so I thought I'd reach out. Any thoughts? Thanks, Erin. And when I read this question, I was really excited to get Vanessa's thoughts on this because she's the ketone queen.
Vanessa Spina:
Well, I want to know what your thoughts are on it as well. So I don't know specifically if this phenomenon has a name or what it is, but I was recently looking through this really interesting paper, which was about athletes and ketogenic diets. And one of the things that was really interesting is they found that once you get into ketosis, sometimes the ketones will stick around for a while in your bloodstream, especially if, say, you get into ketosis and then you have a mixed meal, which is not keto necessarily, then your body switches to actively handling the glucose, the fat, the protein that you've just consumed, the carbohydrate protein and fat that you've consumed. It switches to dealing with that. And so you kind of have this backup of ketones that can sometimes still be in your blood, and it doesn't get taken up by the tissues right away because you're now sequestering glucose into your liver, into your muscle. You're actively using it for energy to make ATP, and then you're doing the same with protein and fat. Your body's handling all that. And so it stops ketone production, but it doesn't right away, your tissues don't right away take up all the ketones because now you have carbs coming in, if that makes sense. So that's the only explanation that comes to mind for me. And it is interesting because I have had that metallic taste myself sometimes at different times, usually when I'm switching things up or I'm doing longer periods of fasting and I have experienced that myself. But I recently was experiencing it a couple of months ago when I started going back to doing OMAD. So I think I was getting into a deeper state of ketosis, but it would be interesting at the time that you experience that to be measuring your ketones, like measuring your breath ketones, especially if you're tasting it, measuring your breath acetone and see what's happening there. If every time you have that metallic taste, you do a measurement on your breath ketones and see what it's showing or do a measurement of your blood ketones. And then you might be able to infer what's happening there as well. But what are your thoughts, Melanie?
Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I loved everything that you said, that was sort of my theory, so it was exciting to hear you say that that might be what would be happening because I hadn't researched this, but I was hypothesizing that, is it sort of like a dumping effect? Basically, you have these ketones, because is that what you would say, kind of, that that buildup of ketones, that it's kind of like they just get dumped into the, you know, they come out through the breath? Like the ones that were there in the ketogenic state and then they eat the high carb meal and then they switch over and then these ketones are just floating around? Is that sort of what's happening?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I guess you could call it like a dumping effect. Yeah, like I said, I don't know what the term for it exactly would be but it sounds like you know, you're going into ketosis and then you have to sort of like Backlog back up of ketones and so you're probably because breath ketones are spontaneously degraded from The form of acetoacetate. So when your body makes ketones it makes beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate Which are the two forms beta-hydroxybutyrate is the storage form of it that's circulating in your bloodstream and then it spontaneously Will degrade from acetoacetate as it's sort of being used and taken up by yourself So then once it starts getting processed then like 15 to 20 percent of it Degrades into acetone which then goes out through your lungs. So yeah, I mean, I guess you could call it a dumping effect I don't have a better term for it
Melanie Avalon:
It's interesting. I guess I experience, I don't know. I've never been one to hardcore go by the breath, like visceral experience of it. The only time I hardcore felt the ketones on my breath was honestly when I would experiment with MCT oil and then it would always be actually right after eating, from eating the MCT oil. So I was actually going to suggest what you suggested, which is I would do some measuring. I would highly suggest getting Vanessa's tone device because then you could actually measure your breath and actually literally see, you know, what's happening during this. But yeah, have you heard that from other people that they experienced this?
Vanessa Spina:
Definitely heard it over the years that you know the metallic taste when ketones are present many people you know who've been doing keto for a while if you're in tune with your body I think you you definitely can notice that because it's it's quite a specific taste you know so when you're you're experiencing it I wouldn't say it's the most like pleasant taste so most people probably notice it and if you're familiar with keto you know that it it means that it's it's like the ketones which is it's kind of neat I think because not everyone detects it so I think it's neat if you're like really in tune with your body and you can detect it yourself
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I'm getting flashbacks. I feel like I was most in tune with it when I first went low carb, and this was before I even started fasting. And then as far as her part about the, I know it wasn't a question, but she was talking about appetite correction and how it works when she eats whole foods, but when she eats fast food or processed foods, she just wants to keep eating and eating and eating. And I just wanted to highlight that for a little bit because I think it really just speaks to this phenomenon where it can be really hard to experience what we call appetite correction. So where you are satiated and full with food and don't feel the need to keep eating and craving, it can be hard to get that if you're still eating processed foods and fast foods. If I think about it too much, I just get upset because I'm studying so much all the time about health and longevity and degenerative disease, and you can just look around and see the state of society. And I just think so much of it goes back to what we're eating. And I wish people's eyes could be open to this. And I think I wonder if like in the future, like way in the future, I don't know if this would ever happen, but kind of like with smoking, where for a long time the smoking industry was, it was just normal to smoke and it wasn't realized how bad of a problem that was for cancer. Now, any promotions you see for cigarettes and smoking, we all know, like we know it's like not a good thing. And I wonder if in the future there will ever come a point where people will feel that way about the processed food industry. I don't know, I guess we'll see.
Vanessa Spina:
I definitely think that's coming. And I love hearing you talk about that, because it's so fascinating. When you talk to people who are experts in processed food addiction, they always talk about how, or not all of them, but like Joan Ifland and Vera Tarmen, about how the cigarette companies, when they saw their time was coming to an end, they started buying all the food, the processed foods. And they use very similar methods in how they target children, and in their messaging and marketing, and even methods that they were doing with cigarettes with children. It's crazy to think back, because now we all know, we all laugh when we see an ad where it's like, smoking is recommended by your doctor, or whatever. We laugh at it now. And I, oh my God, I would love to live in a time when that is a reality, that people look back, and they're like, oh my gosh, doctors actually let people eat this stuff. They didn't tell them to stop eating it. And I know there's a lot of well-intentioned, well-meaning doctors who just don't focus on nutrition, just because that's just not taught, you're not taught to focus on nutrition. But there's more and more who are informed about it, who are being proactive about it, who are even coming out and saying, I gave you bad advice in the past. And I'm starting to see sort of this different view of things where just looking at all the food wars, and the camps, carbs versus fat, it seems like everyone wants to blame either fat or carb as getting people into the metabolic dysregulation that we're in today. And now I just sort of see it as, it's not really fat or carb, it's both. It's like energy toxicity, and it's mostly the processed stuff. And if you just, whole food carb and healthy whole food fats, like the fats that come in like salmon, beef, eggs, et cetera, if you just eat whole foods, it's not about carbs or fats, it's really just about overeating energy. If you just eat whole foods, you're not gonna overeat. And if you don't overeat on whole food carbs and fats, you're not gonna get issues with your fat cells becoming overloaded, and then inflammation, insulin resistance, and all of that. And it's kind of sad in a way that people are so divided with the camps, the mechanistic viewpoint of the carbohydrate insulin model. And then you have people who really just think it's like just eating fats that makes people fat. And it's like, no, it's just overeating. It's not overeating protein, we know that. But if you're overeating either macro or you're overeating both, specifically with processed foods, that's really the problem.
Melanie Avalon:
I could not agree more. I feel so strongly about this. Like the same thing goes with you're talking about low carb versus low fat, but people will say like, oh, it's animal protein or it's the meat, you know, that's the problem. And I'm like, we've been eating animal protein for hundreds and hundreds of years. Million years, at least. What has changed here? It's all this processed food. And it makes me sad. And this is not meant to be a judgment thing at all. You were talking about the role of doctors and how there's not this realization that there is a disservice being done here with the food that we're eating. Like I get really sad when I see all these videos, like there's so many videos of like moms, you know, like making all of this like processed food, cake, snack things for like their kids and stuff. And I'm just like, don't you see that this is feeding poison into these kids and they don't have any agency. Like little kids don't decide what they want to eat. It's whatever they're given. And it makes me sad. And I know like, I mean, I was raised on processed foods and I turned out okay, but I just wish there could be a paradigm shift where people saw these foods as being a primary issue behind all of the health issues that we have today, because they're creating, you know, the metabolic condition that we're in. So we shall see.
Vanessa Spina:
I know it's hard because children have, you know, their mitochondria intact, you know, their hormones are amazing. They can like, quote unquote, get away with eating whatever, but it's like, we're now seeing no, not so much, like there are now there's early onset diabetes conditions that people wouldn't get until they were much older and children are getting them. There's really rising rates of childhood obesity. It's a real problem. It definitely is. And it's happening to people younger and younger. And then all of these chronic non-infectious diseases are happening to people earlier and earlier, younger people are getting disease, non-infectious disease that I think a lot of it is related to metabolic health. So it's a huge issue. And yeah, there's a lot of complications around it. And people like, you know, think that avoiding these foods is restrictive. You know, I mean, like, I think Dr. Vera Tarmen put it so beautifully. She said you wouldn't, if you were talking about alcohol and your kids, you wouldn't, or like cigarettes, you wouldn't think it's restrictive to tell, oh, I don't give my kids alcohol or cigarettes. Everyone's like, right. You know, but when it's like processed foods, everyone's like, oh, you're being so like restrictive. It's like, no, I see these in the same way. They're hyper addictive. They create, you know, responses in the brain that are unnatural with dopamine, units of dopamine that are way too high, that are, you know, that are so high, they create these drug-like effects and addictions. And that's why, like, Lucas never had sugar. And, you know, he's almost three and people are always like, whoa, you know, you don't give him any sugar. And I'm like, no, and he's so calm. He's such a calm child. And that's the number one thing people say about him is like, he's so calm, which you don't hear a lot about toddler. But I know there's a connection. He doesn't eat sugar. He doesn't eat any processed food. And I'm talking about the hyper-process hyperpalisable, like junk food that has been scientifically engineered to get, give you this like a bliss point, this unnatural response to food. Whereas, you know, if you eat a whole food, you know, organically grown apple, or even if it's not organic, whatever, you eat a whole food, even, you know, I know some fruit, people say the fruit's been really manipulated, but most foods in a whole food form, they don't deliver that response of dopamine units. So they can just eat it and have a normal response. They shouldn't have like a cocaine-like response to eating something. So, yeah, I feel the same way. And I really hope that day comes. I do think it is possible. I think people are becoming more and more informed. And we won't seem like extreme, like restrictive, whatever, that some people view it as the way that they probably did in the past with people who were that way about cigarettes or, you know, other things.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I was thinking about it actually the other night because I was thinking about how I haven't eaten these processed foods in, you know, years. And I was thinking about if I had never tried them, then I would never know what they tasted like. And I would never, I wouldn't feel like I was, I don't feel like I'm missing out now. But I do remember that taste and how good it tasted. And I was just thinking about how if I never had them, then I wouldn't even have that relationship to that experience. Because I was thinking about like, what would it be like to be a kid raised who had never had any of these things? I mean, I know people will say that you get your taste buds changed. And they do like I literally I don't, I love the food I eat and it tastes amazing. But I still will always have the memories of what that other food tasted like it doesn't really go away, which I find really interesting even like years and years later. But like you said, it is literally engineered to get us to just keep eating it. And then like, make it seem like we're the problem, which yes, you do have the agency of what you're eating. But it's just it's very like sneaky. Everything's kind of set up to, you know, keep us eating. And then there's like a shift of a focus to Oh, it's all about exercise, you need to like exercise more.
Vanessa Spina:
This is why I think I was like not for a long time I questioned exercise and now I'm so glad that I don't and there's you know I'm really excited about the research behind it but a long time I questioned it because of that messaging. Me too!
Melanie Avalon:
me too. I mean, it's really interesting. You can see this play out because you all you have to do is look at the like I'm not me I'm not making this up and this is not a conspiracy like just look at what these really big companies like Nestle and Coca-Cola and things like that they fund health related incentives that don't involve food because they know because they know that what they're creating is not healthy and creating a lot of problems so they try to shift the focus from food being the problem so they'll sponsor like exercise incentives and like races and you know encouraging more steps and it's just kind of like a diversion like don't look here look over there so yes we shall see how things change shall we go on speaking of food shall we answer our next question
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, sounds great. So Andrea or Andrea from Facebook asked, is organic nitrate free, deli style meat safe to eat in large quantities? I know that it still has naturally occurring nitrates from salt or celery powder, which I'm pretty sure is just as bad, but I would love to hear the research on this if there is any. I wanted to do some protein spraying modified fasting and the easiest and also most delicious way to do this would be with protein shakes and deli meat, but not sure if this would totally negate the benefits.
Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, Andrea, Andrea, I never know how to pronounce that name. Great question. And it's a confusing question as well. So the whole nitrates, nitrates thing is a little bit confusing. Because on the one hand, we hear about all these problems. And then on the other hand, we know that, you know, fruits and vegetables, for example, are really high in nitrates. And there's apparently health benefits from them. So what's happening? What's happening is that there's nitrites and there's nitrates. And they kind of can go back and forth. They can convert into each other. And so vegetables tend to be high, especially like leafy greens can be high in these nitrates, which can convert to nitrites. Either way, these compounds ultimately in the body or wherever they may be can convert to nitrosamine and nitrosamines are the carcinogenic compound that can be created. This happens when nitrites are in the presence of iron and protein, and also has to be a certain temperature as well. So basically, it's very the environment of where the nitrites are located determines whether or not they become a nitrosamine, which is the again, the cancer causing compound. So that's why these ingredients can be a little bit problematic in the context of meat, and especially in the context of processed meat, because it's the perfect situation for that iron and that protein, and that temperature in the stomach to create these cancer causing compounds. So a lot of these different companies will have quote, nitrate, they'll call it like uncured processed meat. And what they do is they use like Andrea was saying, they use nitrates, sorry, they use nitrates from often from celery powder. And I went down the rabbit hole, like I tried to find studies on specifically nitrates from celery powder and things like that and their potential to cause nitrosamines. And I couldn't find any studies on that specifically. I tried, I tried really hard. The takeaway of it all was the mechanisms of action are all still there. So basically, even if it's nitrates from celery powder, if it's in the context of, you know, a meat meal, and you're eating it, and it's in the digestive system, and it's a certain temperature, all the potential is there to create nitrosamines. So I don't know that celery powder versions of nitrates/nitrites lets you bypass the nitrosamine formation. Something to keep in mind, though, is that a lot of the potential of this carcinogenic transformation to happen can be negated by vitamin C and phytochemicals and antioxidants in fruits and vegetables. So it's possible that eating these foods in the context of like a lot of, like I said, fruits and vegetables might reduce that potential of causing nitrosamine formation. I don't know like the celery powder that they're using to create the nitrates added. I don't know if that comes along with its own vitamin C. So maybe there's a void process meats. And we even know, because I know there's all this idea of like red meat causes cancer and all that stuff, the connections they find with cancer causing and meat, it really is. It's red meat for certain reasons, probably unrelated to what we're talking about right now, and processed meats. And I think a lot of the processed meats does go down to this nitrosamine formation that potentially happens after you're eating those foods. So as far as it negating the benefits of PSMF, so that's a whole like tangent because, well, A, so if at all possible, can you eat just real meat on PSMF? I mean, you can. So if that's possible, I would definitely go that route. If for whatever reason you have to do processed meats, I don't think you're going to negate all the effects of everything. I think you're going to know what effects you're looking for and what your starting weight is, what your goals are. But assuming you're doing a PSMF, like a, I don't know what version you're doing of it, but assuming you're doing like a short term, high protein, low calorie approach to your diet in order to lose weight or you know, for metabolic health or whatever it may be. I think the effects from that calorie restriction, I don't think they're gonna be negated from eating processed meat as the choice. I just think you could probably make better choices. And in general, for people, I would avoid processed meats. Vanessa, do you have thoughts?
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, it's a tough one. I, I really love processed meats too. So much that I actually tried to make my own ham a year or two ago. And it was a really interesting process. But I was like, I can make this myself at home without using the nitrate salts, you know, that they put in the meats, because I was like, I'm just gonna make it for myself and then I'll eat it within a few days.
Melanie Avalon:
What do you put in it to make it?
Vanessa Spina:
So, you basically like take meat and you cook it, sorry, you take meat and you like grind it up and then you put it in this container that's like a cylinder and the cylinder goes in a pot of water and it boils it and cooks it to a certain point. And during the process, a lot of people put curing salts and that's where the nitrates come in. Like they have these salts that have nitrate in it and it's usually salt, some flavoring, sugar and nitrates and that's the preservative. So if you make it yourself at home, then you don't have to put that in there because you're not keeping it for weeks and weeks and weeks, right? So I tried making it. It didn't taste as good as regular deli meats and it was just such a process that I was like I just didn't want to have anything to do with it at the end. So I totally get it. It's really hard. I tried to find the nitrate free versions like you do, Andrea, and you know, I tried to limit how much I have and not go overboard like I don't have it every day. You know, I have in the past had it two, three times a week lately. I haven't as much. I've been trying to just stick to like you were talking about, like just whole foods meats, but it is so great and so convenient sometimes. So like if I have it once a week, I don't really worry about it too much. And sometimes we, you know, like I make protein bread and put it in sandwiches. It's super easy, but I do feel better when I avoid it because I think it definitely is not the optimal way to consume protein. So I like the idea of doing the protein shakes for proteins for when I find fast day. But like Melanie was saying, you know, you could just maybe barbecue grill some chicken breast or some other lean meat or even some fish or seafood, you know, whatever you like instead of the deli meat. But I understand the convenience of it and the taste of it for sure. I recently had Dr. Anthony Chaffee on my podcast and I really liked our interview. We talked about this a little bit, but we were talking about red meat and cancer and grilling meats. So I was asking him what he thought about grilling meat. And he said that he really believes, you know, we have been cooking meat with fire for at least one point five to two million years and that we're very well adapted to that because it's something that we have co-evolved with. That's been part of our evolution. I don't know, you know, obviously nitrates are probably haven't always been present, but grilling meat, he said he's fully on board with. He said that what he does try to avoid is to not overdo the smoked meats because that's a more concentrated form of the smoke. And I I was relieved when we were talking that I was for a while I was like obsessed with smoked meats. And now most of the smoked meat I have is smoked salmon. But I was so into it. I actually got a smoker and I was smoking brisket and I just loved the flavor of it so much. And then I think we just got busy with the kids. So I stopped doing it. And I was thinking like last week, I'm like, I think I should sell the smoker because I only used it a couple of times and it's huge. Takes up a lot of space in our storage. And I don't think I'm going to do it again after that conversation with him because I don't know. He said if you have it once a month, it's probably fine. You know, the smoked meats. But he said it's probably a little bit more riskier than he doesn't worry at all about grilling because I was asking about grilling because we grill like every day right now. Summertime is great for me because Pete can take over the cooking, at least with the proteins. So it makes cooking a lot easier. Just the whole process way easier just with grilling. But I was really curious about that. So I was glad to hear what he said. And also I was relieved that I haven't been eating as much of the smoked meats as I was because if I had continued on that path, I don't know. But it sounds like when it comes to meat in terms of what the research shows, you know, there are some concerns, like you were saying, with the process forms, there's some concerns with smoked forms, but not so much with grilled meats. So maybe that's one way to still make it tasty and enjoy a proteins very modified fasting day.
Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Yeah, that was really helpful. And I want to emphasize that, like, I think there are, like, there are worse things out there. And, you know, if a person has a pick between not having any meat at all and having processed meat, I mean, I just think protein is so important and the nutrients we get from meat is so important. So I don't even like answering that question. But I guess I'm saying that I don't think it's overwhelmingly horrible, but I think you could do a lot to mitigate it. And, you know, having the processed meat in the context of a lot of leafy greens and veggies can potentially help with that potential nitrosamine formation. And I hear what you're saying, Vanessa, about, you know, the ease of it. And for me with the processed meats, why I didn't like eating them was they tasted so good. I found them more addicting than like, like with normal meat, I eat it and it feels good and satiating. But with processed meat, it sometimes makes me want to keep eating more. And then the sodium load was always just like so much. Like it would make me feel like bloated. And yeah, just can't win, but you
Vanessa Spina:
Can you supplement with salt at all? I'm curious, like, with algae?
Melanie Avalon:
Just the salt? No, I don't. I eat so, I used to a little bit if I, before I ate a lot of scallops, which I think they're high in natural sodium. In the past I would if I felt like I needed it intuitively. I think I get a lot of sodium from like the seafood that I eat, not like added salt, but just the scallops seem to be high in sodium. Yeah, do salt like your food when you eat it or no? I also, just really quick, since I eat high carb, I don't feel, I feel the need more for salt when I do like low carb. Yeah, that's definitely when you need it. Yeah, no, I don't. Like I said, I have, so I have like salts. I have like Himalayan salt. I have some other like fancy salt brands that, cause fancy salt brands will reach out to me and like send me their salt. So every now and then I have like an intuitive feeling like I need some salt. And then I add like a tiny bit to my food, but otherwise no. But I did go through a period where I was eating these turkey slices that were processed and I just thought it was so interesting how I could literally, I could like feel my aldosterone and I could feel like my kidneys or my body adjusting to sodium levels. And it's like your body sets like a new, I talked to Rob Wolf about this when I had him on the show. I was like, I feel like your body sets like a salt, like a sodium like level that it feels intuitively that it's at and then it kind of like protects that level. This is all just like my experience in my body. But what I mean by that is if I don't eat any sodium, don't have any sodium at it, I don't feel like I'm retaining water. I don't feel like I'm overexcreting water. I don't crave salt. Then if I start eating some saltier foods, it's like my body hits a new like level and then that becomes the norm of intake. And then I need to like have sodium to like reach that level. And so for me, I just feel better not adding any and only adding a little bit if I am craving it. I don't know if you've had that experience.
Vanessa Spina:
I'm obsessed with salt and I think it's because I do low carb, I salt a lot. I love the taste of salt and I can't have a meal without adding salt to it. My body needs it so much. And I do a lot of elements throughout the day, like three, four, sometimes more a day. That's a bunch of five or six sometimes, but it's because I really don't eat that much carbohydrate in the day, like under 50 grams. There's a really interesting, did you talk about nitric oxide?
Melanie Avalon:
not in that answer. I did have information about it, but I did not. Would you like to?
Vanessa Spina:
Well, there's a really interesting study, I don't have the full article, but it's talking about how dietary nitrates, nitrite, and arginine can serve as sources of production of nitric oxide, which is good for us. And the conversion happens through UV exposure on the skin, which is really interesting. So, I mean, having nitric oxide is really good for us, and it's part of, I think, when probably specifically red light, because red light therapy also improves levels of nitric oxide. So I wonder if there's a connection there, because you mentioned vitamin C and antioxidants and phytonutrients. I want to look into this more, maybe I'll report back on it.
Melanie Avalon:
And the reason... No, I'm so glad you brought it up. The reason I didn't bring it up was, yeah, it's like a whole other complicated layer. But I think it involves why it's so confusing and that nitrites and nitrates from vegetables and produce seem to have health benefits and are correlated to health benefits. And yet they're also the cause of all of these potential problems. And I think it's super context dependent as far as which pathway those... they go down and whether or not they are beneficial and help create nitric oxide or if they become these harmful nitrosamines. So it's like they can go either way. I didn't know that about the red light on the skin though. That's fascinating.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I want to learn more about it. I'm going to get this article and read more and I can report back in the future.
Melanie Avalon:
Well, this was so wonderful. So for listeners, these show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode383. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. You can submit your own questions by emailing questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are ifpodcast. I am Melanie Avalon and Vanessa is Ketogenic Girl. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?
Vanessa Spina:
I so enjoyed this episode again. I really appreciate the wonderful questions and I can't wait to record again soon. Likewise, I will talk to you next week. Sounds great, talk to you then. Bye. Bye.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
LINKS
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Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com
Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
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