Episode 382: Exercise, Resistance Training, Zone 2 Training, EPOC, Autophagy, Mitophagy, CBD Gummies, Algae, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Support!

Help Make The Intermittent Fasting Podcast Possible!

Hi Friends! We put a ton of time and energy into researching and producing The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. You can help support us on Patreon! Every dollar helps!

Aug 11

Welcome to Episode 382 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

SEED: This episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you in part by Seed. Seed's DS-01 Daily Synbiotic is a 2-in-1 prebiotic and probiotic formulated to support gut health, skin health, and overall well-being. With clinically and scientifically studied strains, Seed's Daily Synbiotic promotes digestive health, boosts immune function, and enhances your body's nutrient absorption. Start your journey to a healthier you with Seed's innovative and effective synbiotic formula. Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

SEED: Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

Listener Q&A: Mari - What type of exercise is good to help increase autophagy?

Does Exercise Regulate Autophagy in Humans? A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis

Exercise and Training Regulation of Autophagy Markers in Human and Rat Skeletal Muscle

Physical Exercise and Selective Autophagy: Benefit and Risk on Cardiovascular Health

Listener Q&A: Sandra - Can you tell me if you think that taking a CBD gummy will break my fast?

FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Rebecca - I am wondering if taking spirulina tablets in the morning (when it’s recommended) would break the fast?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 382 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 382 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. What is new in your life, Vanessa? And I just had...

Vanessa Spina:
A beautiful summer day, I took Luca and Damien this morning, my two boys, and one is two and one is six months, to a baby French jazz concert with my friend, her babies. And they do these concerts all the time in Prague for babies. And it's so much fun because all the parents come, bring their little kids, and then we put out blankets and they sit there and they do classical performances. The last one we went to was opera and ballet, which was beautiful. And they had a harp, a harpist twice. And today it was French jazz, which I'm not a big fan of jazz, but this was like a French jazz. And I'm being part French. I loved it. It was so beautiful. The kids had so much fun. And then I took them to my favorite cafe after and I had an almond milk cappuccino and Luca had a fresh coconut, like young coconut, and they gave him the coconut juice and like cut up the coconut meat. And we just had the best day. So much fun. And then I came home and I started prepping for our recording tonight. So I had a wonderful

Melanie Avalon:
day. How about you? Wow. So the content of these concerts, how do they make it baby specific?

Vanessa Spina:
So it's usually in a big music hall. Like today we were in an old, beautiful, old, like Renaissance tower. So beautiful old room with like all the original wood and murals and everything. And the way they make it baby friendly is they make it 45 minutes and everyone puts blankets down. So you're sitting on the floor so the kids can move around. They can like have snacks and they can interact today, like five or so of the kids were dancing in front. So that's how it's customized to them because it's hard for kids to sit through stuff for a long time. So 45 minutes, I think just kind of works. I think actually half an hour would be optimal. Like around half an hour, Luca was like, I think he was like, had enough. He's he powered through the last few songs, but I think 45 minutes makes it more enjoyable for the parents. So it's not too short, but yeah, it's, it's great. Cause the kids are just like getting exposed to all this culture and parents get to, you know, actually get to a concert, which is hard to do is. So I really appreciate when you get to do that.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. I'm so jealous those kids are being raised. Right. I love, I love going to shows and concerts. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I don't know how much of that kind of stuff is around for kids back home, but I know it's one of the things we really love about being here is there's just so much stuff for kids and so much cultural stuff. So we're trying to take as much, take full advantage while we're here.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's true because, well, I'm not immersed in the child activity sphere, and you haven't been here since having kids. Wait, right? Because you were, did you have Luca and Prague? Yes. Yeah, there might be this stuff going around.

Vanessa Spina:
I just hear from like friends and stuff. There probably is if you live in a city and you live in a city that has a lot of cultural stuff going on, I'm not sure outside the city how much stuff there is. But yeah, I think it's one of the perks definitely in being in Europe. There's just a lot of cultural stuff like that for kids all the time, like constantly. Like every day there's like 20 or 30 of these things happening. There's a lot, especially here. So it's a very artsy city. It's like how Paris used to be and kind of reminds me. I like to think of it as a new Paris because there's just a lot happening here. But yeah, that was.

Melanie Avalon:
my day. How was your day? It was good. I think I would like living there. Yeah. How big is the actual city city?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, the country itself is not huge, like it's about the size of Switzerland. There's about 10 million people here. So it's small population. Like if you consider it part of greater Europe, greater like Europe being like having a lot more people, but the countries themselves are like, are pretty small compared to, I don't know, is that similar to like, similar to Canada, but states in the US are huge. I know like 300 million in California. So there's like a lot more, but it's pretty small. It's kind of like Vancouver in Canada, where I used to live, where it's like very walkable. I'm trying to think of a US city that I could compare it to. Probably like a small city in California, like Carmel or like, you know, something walk, like you can, you don't really need a car. You can walk everywhere. Yeah, just like a small, I mean, LA is so big and sprawling. It's hard to compare it to anything back home, but yeah, it's pretty small. It's a nice size. It's big enough that there's lots to do, but it's small enough that you don't really need a car and you can get around with like the trams. So maybe like San Francisco.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, yeah, yeah. So we're recording this a little bit in advance. So it is summer, I had a friend come in town for the holiday weekend. This is now in the past, but I went out two nights in a row. So I'm proud of myself. And now I'm like done. I'm like good for the near future.

Vanessa Spina:
a photo of you on your Instagram. You had straight hair and looked so pretty.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that was yeah, that was a few weeks ago. Oh, thank you. That was very spontaneous. I loved it.

Vanessa Spina:
is so cute. I don't see it blonde straight. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
That was, I had gone the day before to get something done to it and they straightened it and I was dressing up like Taylor Swift and my sister was like, just wear it straight. It like literally never occurred to me to wear it straight. And I saw your Taylor Swift.

Vanessa Spina:
it's it's like a body suit yes that's what you're making with the secret you made that mm-hmm it's amazing

Melanie Avalon:
Although, I was so embarrassed, so embarrassed because I'm like a very, I don't know, I like classiness and long story short, that night, this was a while ago now, but we were going to a Taylor Swift dance party, which was so fun. And we went to kind of like a classy place before to get drinks. And they did not want me to come in wearing that and I was mortified. I was mortified.

Vanessa Spina:
Or they're like, where's your pants? But that's the trend now is like no pants. Is that a trend now?

Melanie Avalon:
But it's so clearly a costume. I was so apologetic. I was like, I am so sorry. This is a costume. We're going to a dance party after, a themed party after. And then of course our waiter was all into it. He was like, is Taylor Swift in town? We're like, no. Yeah, they told me I needed to have pants on.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay, the all the fashion bloggers that I follow on Instagram for like the last year, they've been like, posting all this like no pants stuff.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, it's not saturated culture quite enough yet, because it's interesting. I think I find it really interesting, though, not to get on too much of a tangent, but what will embarrass certain people and not others, you know? Because that literally, you know, that just that feeling of pure embarrassment, it was just so full in my body. And my friends and sister were like, it's no big deal, like, stop freaking out. And I was like, I don't want people to think I'm not a classy person. But yes, it's all good culture. Would you be embarrassed in that situation?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't know maybe maybe not I don't embarrass that easily but I know what you mean like the feeling of like that you're just not appropriately attired it would be maybe not embarrassment but like for me more just like regret or I don't know if I would be embarrassed I would just be like oh I guess I didn't plan this out or something

Melanie Avalon:
Well, what's funny is to my sister, I was like, I told you so because I literally texted her before and I was like, do you think it's going to be a problem me wearing this? And she's like, it's fine. But what I know about my sister is she's the type of person where you can't, she just says, and she knows this, we talked about this, like she'll just say things like very confidently that she's not certain about. So you can't like listen to her confident answers to things. I just disregard them.

Vanessa Spina:
Wait, what did they say to you exactly?

Melanie Avalon:
I think that's another thing. It was a place that's very, very hard to get into. But I know the the Psalm, like the head Psalm there. So he had his reservation. And they just were like, not seating us, and then not seating us. And then the manager like, walked over to me and I was like, I know what this is about. He was like, like, ma 'am, we just about dress code. Yeah, something about that. They're like, can you just like, put something on. So I like made a skirt out of my sister's sweater. Oh, yeah, I like made a new outfit. Actually, it was kind of cute. It was fine. Then you were able to stay. Yeah. But then I like couldn't get over the embarrassment. I like couldn't let it go. Obviously, it's like a month later and I'm talking about it still. It's fine. But then we went to the dance party, the Taylor Swift dance party and I felt so accepted and it was like all good. Oh, that sounds awesome. So I highly recommend friends. This is like a thing. It's called the Taylor party and they go all over to different cities. So you can follow them on Instagram and see if they're coming to a city near you. I highly recommend it. The DJ was so into it. It was amazing. That's really fun. The Taylor party. The Taylor party. No, see if they come to Europe. Oh, yeah, I wonder. She's in Europe right now. Does she come to Prague?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think so, but a couple of my girlfriends, well, three of my girlfriends here are going. One is going, I think in Poland, one is going to it in London. And she is trying to get another one of our friends to go. Initially they asked me as well, but I just don't feel ready with like, with Demi being so young to leave them. So I'm not sure if they're doing, but I think she's gonna, if she might go to two. So yeah, three of them are going, but I don't know why she's not coming here.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it seems like it would be a nice city. Wait, I can't find it. The Taylor Dance?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, it's called the Taylor party. Oh, sorry, Taylor party. Yeah, it's too bad. She's not coming here because I'm sure people would. I found it. You found it. That's fun. My nieces were just here and they went to see Olivia Rodrigo and they went to Amsterdam. No, sorry, Denmark. They flew to Denmark to see her and I was like, so are you are you girls into Taylor Swift? And they're like, no, they're like, they were telling me, Olivia Rodrigo is more for like teens and Taylor Swift is like not there.

Melanie Avalon:
demo. Oh, interesting. She's more for wall.

Vanessa Spina:
older. Yeah. And I mean, most of my friends here that are going to her are in their 30s.

Melanie Avalon:
That's yeah, okay. That's interesting. I just assume she was everyone's Batiba. I mean she yeah, she is but I guess maybe she's more weighted towards that demographic.

Vanessa Spina:
They were timing Olivia Rodrigo's like the Taylor Swift for teens.

Melanie Avalon:
I have, yeah, no comment. That's interesting. I'm currently debating. I just saw there's like a Taylor Swift, like, laser concert on Saturday, which I'm highly alert by. However, oh my goodness, Vanessa, I have a wedding that starts at 1.30 p.m. And I don't know how that's gonna happen. What do you mean? I don't know how I can be ready at a wedding an hour away at 1.30 p.m. I just...

Vanessa Spina:
I have to get up really early.

Melanie Avalon:
And wake up earlier. I mean, I'm going to have to I don't know I just yeah, I'm literally been stressing about this for like a month So is it like a close friend or family member? Mm-hmm. If it wasn't a family member, I would not go so I'm literally my therapist. My therapist was literally like what if you just go to the reception? And I was like, thank you for suggesting that therapist. However, there are family photos. So I don't think I Can get away with that? So yeah, if I get excommunicated from my family, that's what happened. I like didn't go to the wedding So what time was your wedding?

Vanessa Spina:
I think it was at three or four. It's coming up, our anniversary on July 30th. I always get it wrong and Pete teases me because I always think it's like the 31st or something. But the hotel where we had our reception just opened a brand new restaurant and they relaunched it like they, it's called Monastique because it's an old, the hotel is like a luxury hotel that used to be a monastery. So I'm like, great, we have anniversary plans because we can go have dinner there. We had our wedding reception, but I'm excited. And we have Luca's birthday coming up in two weeks now. And I am so excited for it. I'm doing all the goodie bags, like with all the little things for kids in it, and a beautiful new place just open in the city. It's kind of like Las Vegas inside without the casinos. It's like a club atmosphere on all the floors. They have all these bars and they just have arcades and like mini putt and all this stuff, but it's very luxurious inside. They opened this incredible amusement park for kids. So we took, we went with Luca and the nieces and to go check it out because I was thinking about having his birthday party there. We're definitely going to have it there. And I think the kids are going to have so much fun. So I'm having fun planning that. And yeah, lots of things coming up this month.

Melanie Avalon:
So many things. Prague is the place to be, apparently. Well, happy, happy early anniversary and birthday.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. Yeah, I hope you make it to the wedding.

Melanie Avalon:
We shall see, we shall see. I'm not even gonna think about it. Okay, shall we jump into some fasting?

Vanessa Spina:
related things. I'm so excited for these questions.

Melanie Avalon:
So to start things off, we have a question from Mari, and I don't remember where we got this question. I pulled it from our backlog of questions, but it is, what type of exercise is good to help increase autophagy?

Vanessa Spina:
I love this question, and I've recently become so excited about exercise and autophagy. I had an incredible guest on the podcast recently, Dr. Tommy Wood, and this is his specialty, and he has been studying autophagy and exercise. He also does a lot of research on mental performance, cognition, and exercise, but he has this one quote, basically, from that podcast episode where he said that you can get as much autophagy from 30 minutes of resistance training as a three-day fast, and I had, you know, obviously I know that you get autophagy from exercise, especially mitophagy, because you're doing resistance training, so that's your mitochondrial autophagy, and I never heard it quantified in those terms before, so specifically. I have another researcher that's one of his colleagues who's coming on the podcast actually next week, and I've been so excited to talk to her more about that, because she's been working on a study to quantify it even more and put it even more into terms that are applicable, such as, you know, the equating, the three days, the 72 hours of fasting to 30 minutes of resistance training. So, there's a lot of research showing that lots of different forms, obviously lots of different forms of exercise generate autophagy, however, there was a really interesting meta-analysis that looked at all the different studies that have been done on exercise and autophagy, and what they concluded is that although you do get some autophagy from endurance exercise and different forms of exercise, it's really resistance training that you get the most autophagy. So, in that meta-analysis, they concluded that long-term resistance training, not short-term, but long-term resistance training is probably the best exercise for increasing autophagy in humans, and the beneficial effects of other exercise types, such as endurance, might be via mechanisms other than activating autophagy, so you can get a lot of benefits from other forms of exercise, but really, it's the long-term resistance training that was found to be the best for increasing autophagy in humans, so I think this kind of stuff is pretty exciting. The other thing that Dr. Tommy Wood also mentioned is that you can get the same amount of autophagy from a three-day fast as, I think he said, an hour or two hours of zone two training, but that was not on my podcast, so I can't remember exactly, so I know you are getting some from endurance exercise as well, but it's really the long-term resistance training that the research has shown to be best for autophagy, and I find this stuff really exciting because, obviously, doing 30 minutes of resistance training is a lot easier than a three-day fast for me anyway, so I'm really excited about this research, and I'm super excited to be interviewing this other researcher that's also on his team next week to learn more about those specifics, and I'm definitely going to report back on what she says because she's got some research that's fresh out of the kitchen.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so first of all, that's amazing timing with interviewing chem. And okay, was the study that you read at the end, was it a meta analysis from 2023, do you have the title of it? Was it does exercise regulate autophagy in humans, a systemic review and meta analysis?

Vanessa Spina:
So this was published March 2023. Does exercise regulate autophagy in humans, a systematic review and meta-analysis?

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, awesome. Yeah, that's the same one I read. Okay, it was so interesting hearing you say that about what he found about the 30 minutes because I... So I went... Okay, this was such an interesting experience for me, like researching it, because people say all the time, exercise increases autophagy. So I thought it was going to be like really easy that there would be all these studies on exercise increasing autophagy. And that was not what I found. It was actually an experience because normally if I'm looking up a topic in PubMed and Google Scholar and all the things, I'll find studies from like 2017, 2016. And I'll feel like they're... Like that I can use them and that there will be more studies that I can continue to use. I don't normally feel like... I don't normally super feel concerned that when I'm reading is going to be quickly dated and incorrect. But the original studies I was pulling up were like 2017, 2018. And I just had this feeling. I was like, I don't know that anybody knows what's going on here because what I was reading was very conflicting. So there was studies showing that it increased autophagy, but then there was a lot saying that it decreased. And then a lot of them were in animal studies. And I was like, I just need to look at honestly studies from 2023 and beyond because I don't think anybody had any idea what was going on. And so I did find that same review and meta-analysis that you read, which I thought was really enlightening and helpful. I don't think it was in this one. I think it was in a similar one. I will put links to all of the studies that I found in the show notes. But one of them was talking about basically how the genetic expression of autophagy related genes in rodents is different than humans. So basically, all of these studies in rodents might not be applicable to humans, like at all. Like they might be applicable a little bit, but you definitely can't make a direct correlation. And it was saying that that could be a reason that there seems to be a lot of contradictory findings in animals versus humans. So that the study that Vanessa brought up, I thought was the best overview of everything to date. And it was 2023. And I looked at 26 studies. Their takeaways, they went through the studies that have been conducted. 26 studies met their criteria. And what they decided on was a few things. Vanessa mentioned the main takeaway that long-term resistance training is probably the best way to increase autophagy. Interestingly, it seems that short-term resistance exercise potentially reduces autophagy, which is interesting because that 30 minutes of exercise that you were talking about, was that resistance or endurance? Do you know? For which one? What you were talking about that he was talking about with the 30 minutes of exercise? 30 minutes of resistance training. Oh, of resistance.

Vanessa Spina:
Toffee Woods' research is all in humans, and his colleague who I'm interviewing next week is also all in humans, and he discounts basically all the rhoda research. He says that a lot of the autophagy research that's been done that promotes fasting is actually because of unapplicable research on animals. So everything he focuses on is just in humans. Awesome.

Melanie Avalon:
I wonder if, because one of the studies was saying that looking at these different markers of autophagy, I'm trying to remember which one it was specifically, I think it was like LC3B2? Yeah, LC3B2, they were saying that it's possible that while we measure that for autophagy findings that it might not actually reflect autophagy flux in the body in general. So I wonder if, I'd be really curious if, I mean if you ask him, these studies that find reduced autophagy and short bouts of resistance exercise, what he thinks is going on there, like is it actually reduced autophagy or is it just like misleading markers but there's not actually reduced autophagy?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because it seems like there's a topology happening in the peripheral blood and there's also a topology happening in the muscle. So I think that's maybe the distinction, because what they're finding is it's attenuating in one and not the other. But I'll ask Christy when I have her on next week.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, her. Okay. Yes. I'll be super, super excited. I want to ask her all the questions too, because basically the takeaways from this study was to recap. For resistance training, they found that short-term resistance training reduces autophagy. Again, I don't know if that's actually happening because that's contrary to what was his name, the actual researcher that you interviewed? Dr. Tommy Wood. Wood. Okay. Dr. Tommy Wood. I don't know why I keep thinking Dr. Lehman. Dr. Wood. Yeah. I'll be really curious what he says. It sounds like they both agree about the longer-term resistance exercise increasing autophagy. And then as far as actual endurance exercise, so this was again just this meta-analysis, but they concluded that moderate and vigorous intensity endurance exercise didn't show any effects on autophagy, which again is interesting because like I said, I was looking at earlier studies that did find that. So it was really confusing reading all of it, but the one takeaway that seemed to be settled on a little bit for now was the long-term resistance training, which honestly is to everybody's benefit because I think if I wouldn't say if there's one type of exercise to focus on, but we just know how important it is supporting muscle mass and muscle training and resistance exercise. So it sounds like you really can't go wrong by implementing that into your life on a consistent basis. And what I would say for all of this, because I know her question was about what type of exercise increases autophagy, I wouldn't, me personally, I would not specifically do exercise for that sole purpose because you're going to get the synergistic health benefits of doing exercise in general. And it's like you don't need to really know. You don't need to like focus. I don't think, you need to focus on, I'm going to do this type of exercise for this amount of time to create x amount of autophagy. Like just integrate exercise into your life, do the fasting, do the things and let autophagy do its thing the way it does it. That's my thoughts. Do you have any other thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I would go as far as to say if you could just pick one thing, it would be resistance training. That's what I prioritize now. Although I do a lot of other activity during the week, I used to always prioritize cardio for years. Now, if I can only get one thing done, I'm much happier if I get my resistance training. And that's because it has so many carry over effects you have, like I've done comparisons with post exercise measurements of my metabolic rate and seen that I get sometimes even more post exercise it's called epoch post exercise oxygen consumption measurement from resistance training, then from cardio, I always assumed you would get more like calorie burning basically from cardio. I get more from resistance training because you have the burn from the energy that you're expanding during the workout. But then you also have it afterwards in the repair and recovery of the muscle tissue and muscle protein synthesis. You also get extra benefits from having a higher metabolic rate from having active metabolically active tissue in your body, and converting more of your body into lean tissue that is metabolically active. And then you get all that autophagy. So to me, it's like, if there's anything that you're going to do if you can only choose one thing. For me, it's resistance training. And I just do it at home. I have weights. And I work out at home. I've worked with a trainer, I definitely recommend people work with a trainer if they're starting out at the beginning to make sure that you have the right positioning. And you don't hurt yourself because injuring yourself is definitely the opposite of what you want to achieve with it. And it's not that hard to do. So yeah, I would definitely say that that's the number one exercise for autophagy number one exercise for overall health, health span, longevity as well, because it makes you more durable. It boosts your bone density as well. I mean, there's so many benefits to it. I did it a lot when I was in university. And then for some reason, I just went, you know, full on with the cardio for years. And I wish I had just carried through with it. And done both, you know, I don't know why I had to just like, why kind of just fell off. But yeah, it's, it's such a priority for me, you know, when it comes to day to day stuff. And it's really exciting. Also seeing the research that's coming out. Another thing that I was talking about with Dr. Tommy would was the connection between muscle mass and cognition. What's really interesting is, I believe this as well, that the more lean mass you have in your body, the more brain benefits that you get. And it turns out it doesn't, it's not about how much lean mass you have, it's about how much of it you activate. So in all the research that they've done, if someone has a lot more lean mass than someone else, it doesn't make a difference. It's who is actually activating that muscle. And it's the activation of the muscle that actually improves brain health. So there's like amazing research coming out on cognition, obviously dementia prevention. And, you know, preventing a lot of neurodegenerative conditions, potentially with having more muscle mass. So I'm glad that there's such a spotlight right now on protein resistance training. And, you know, the research is really coming out strongly behind it.

Melanie Avalon:
That is so interesting. As far as the activating the muscle, does it also relate to the concept of, quote, good or bad muscle? And what I mean by that is, I recently listened to Dr. Gabrielle Lyon on Huberman. Did you listen to that episode? No, I haven't. She was talking about, like, good and bad muscle. And basically, bad muscle would be muscle that's actually full of fat, kind of like a well marbled steak, but not the athlete's paradox. So not like muscle that's fueling on fat, but rather muscle that has fatty deposits in it that is not fueling on it. I wonder if that also plays a role in its effects.

Vanessa Spina:
That definitely could be part of it, because yeah, like you said, if you're over if you are metabolically unfit, and your fat cells are over stuffed and inflamed, your body is going to start depositing fat in places it shouldn't, which is where you get that topic, topic fat around your organs and in, you know, sort of central part of the body. And then you also get fatty deposits in your muscle, which is not, as you said, the same as when you're an athlete. And you have high turnover of the fatty acids stored in your muscle. And that high turnover makes makes it great for your body to deposit fat there, because it knows you're going to burn it off. So if it's turning over at a rapid rate, then you want that if it's just sitting there, then that's because your body's inflamed, your fat cells are over full, there's insulin resistance. And that's leading to low grade inflammation, which will generate a cascade of, you know, metabolic issues. So yeah, it's, I would say the muscle tissue is probably the same. But your point, yeah, if you are contracting the muscle, and actively using it, then you're getting that turnover of those fat deposits. So then it becomes a great thing. So

Melanie Avalon:
interesting and you said you were measuring your post-exercise oxygen consumption. Where are you doing that? Are you going in somewhere? I would say doing it.

Vanessa Spina:
doing it like three years ago and was I using some kind of app I think I didn't go into a lab or anything but I have to look it up but I remember that I was amazed that my calorie burn from and my post-exercise oxygen consumption was so much higher from the resistance training and that's when I was like okay why am I spending so much time doing cardio when I actually enjoy resistance training way more than doing cardio I still do cardio metabolic activity I do a lot of walking and a lot of incline walking just being outside and walking around the city like today I walk for four hours around the city and it's a very hilly city so you know I get my cardio in but you know the priority really is the resistance training and I enjoy it so much more than although I enjoy walking too but as a workout like if you have to run on the treadmill or do resistance training resistance training is so much more fun for me anyway

Melanie Avalon:
I love the paradigm shift I've had in my life around exercise and movement because I did not enjoy those days of just going to the gym and getting on the treadmill and just going there and like doing the thing and then like being hungry and like going home and eating food. Like it was just, I don't know, it was not, it was, and I know some people love the gym and that's their culture and that's what makes them happy and like keep on keeping on. But for me, I'd rather just integrate movement into my daily life, like lift heavy things all the time and just be a functional movement person. Are you still there?

Vanessa Spina:
I'm still doing the EMS, electromagnetic stimulation, here they call EMS.

Melanie Avalon:
M sculpt. That's what we call it here. Okay. I was like, what do we call it here? Even though that's the brand name. Yes. I haven't done. The last time I was doing sessions was before the biohacking conference. I see so much benefit from that. It's crazy. It builds so much muscle.

Vanessa Spina:
I really want to try it. I think I told you before there's a place not far from my house. I just have to. I think once day means a little bit more independent for me, I'm going to make that a priority to try. I think it could level up my fitness routine. But my sister-in-law, which is here visiting, and she's like, your arms are jacked. What is happening? And I was like, it's the mom arms because I'm just lifting a 33-pound weight and a 20-pound weight all day long, up and down. And the two-year-old, my beautiful Luca, he's in a big mommy phase right now. He wants me to pick him up every minute of the day. It feels like it's been like that for the last three years. And sometimes I'm like, I can't right now, Luca. And then I think about when he's 25, he's not going to ask me anymore. So I'm like, okay. Are you still going to sit in my lap when you're 25? No, probably not. So.

Melanie Avalon:
I'll take it now. So we've launched our Mind Blown podcast, my third podcast, which everybody check out and subscribe to on Apple Podcasts. But we were prepping, we're about to record an episode coming up about things that vanished. So basically things that went away that nobody really realized. And now you're just like, oh, they're gone. Like we don't, like nobody has ringtones anymore. Like nobody, like when did that stop? So I've been Googling like things that vanished. I've been trying to find lists. And one thing that somebody said was it's not really applicable to that list, but they said like one day your parents picked you up and that was the last time they ever picked you up. Like, oh, yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I bet. Also, let me pick him up once or twice. When he's older, we'll see. Unless he's huge, because he's like, bulking, he looks like the Hulk lately. From eating all the protein that he eats. And from being active. But I was talking to a guest recently about like how early is too early to get the kids in resistance training. Now, like do it as whenever he's like the earlier, the better. I can't, I wish I could remember.

Melanie Avalon:
it was. Gabrielle answered that on the Huberman podcast. That was her answer, like, as early as they can.

Vanessa Spina:
I texted her when I saw the episode of my feed, and I was like, are you kidding me, Huberman? Like, you are killing it. But I haven't listened to it yet. I just have so many episodes. Like, I'm starting to get there's probably going to be a name for it at some some point, but some kind of like, podcast anxiety from like all the amazing podcasts that I see in my feed every day, that I'm like, I put them in my playlist, like, play next. And I'm like, listen to that, listen to that. And I'm like, and I never get to. There's just so many. I'm still, if you can believe it, I'm still listening to the Peter Atea, Luke van Loon episode. That's a during the kids nap yesterday, because it's so good. I just keep listening over and over again. And I need to like, fully, I need to fully absorb all of it. So I just keep listening to it over and over again.

Melanie Avalon:
It's just so good. Important question. What speed do you listen on? I usually listen to.

Vanessa Spina:
everything but when an episode's really good I have to go to 1.5 so I'm listening to that one on 1.5 because sometimes when I notice that I keep going back like I keep rewinding 30 seconds I'm like hey I'm going too fast on this one

Melanie Avalon:
I thought I was going to be helpful, but it wasn't helpful. I was going to say I had the major epiphany because I never liked listening to podcasts fast because it kind of like gives me a little bit of anxiety when they're like talking so fast. Especially because I listen, I listen to my podcast at night when I'm like winding down. And so if they're like, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, then I'm like, ah, I realized that on Spotify, if you listen at 1.1, it sounds the same, but you like slap, you like slice off a little bit of time. I was like, this is a game changer for me or for Apple Podcasts 1.25.

Vanessa Spina:
listening to it fast because it makes me feel like I'm a supercomputer or something. It's like absorbing all the information, rapid fire. But yeah, sometimes it gets too dense and I have to slow it down a little. Maybe I should listen to it on 1.1 and then I'll just get it out of my system in one

Melanie Avalon:
1.1 is like, it's like magic because you literally, it literally sounds like real life, but you know that you're 10% faster. Maybe. Is that how the math would work? I don't know.

Vanessa Spina:
It's just so funny though, because you get used to it. So I always listen, if I ever listened back to one of my episodes, which I do sometimes just for like timestamps or things, I always listen to it on two. And then I go back to like normal speed. And it's like, I'm talking like this.

Melanie Avalon:
No, no, it's like mind blowing because I so for audible books during the day, I do I listen to them super fast like 2.2.5, like really 2.7. Sometimes I push 2.8. What's crazy is like, I'll listen on normal and I will keep listening. I'm like, this is not this is not real. And you keep listening and it doesn't adjust though. Like my brain doesn't adjust back. Like it still sounds like it's crazy. Do it at one. I don't know.

Vanessa Spina:
I always I sound like I was just so

Melanie Avalon:
slow and I... That was a perfect reenactment that you did a second ago. That's like exactly what it sounds like. I don't know. It's like it's weird. Can't trust reality. No. I'm actually wait last comment on that then I swear I'm done. I'm actually currently trying to decide which editor to use ongoing for my third podcast and one of them has a faster editing style like they're making it go a little bit faster and the other one has a slower editing style. And I was like, hmm, like I had this whole conversation in my head. I was like, well, if it's faster to begin with, maybe people will click in more because they're, you know, they feel like it's moving. But then I'm like, but the people who speed ahead, then it's going to be too fast. So maybe we got to accommodate the people that are, you know, speeding it up.

Vanessa Spina:
want to do a poll now and ask people what speed they listen to podcasts in general because I would love to know. Like I just have to get through so many that I have to listen to them that fast. I also enjoy it but it's kind of like both but I don't know if I if I had all the time in the world.

Melanie Avalon:
Like, would you listen at the normal rate? I don't know.

Vanessa Spina:
one. I don't know. I'm just so used to it now. And you can get so much more information that way. I'm so curious now. We should do a poll in your group. Yes, I'm going to write that down. I really want to talk about it on a future episode. Share the results and talk about it.

Melanie Avalon:
it. Oh, my goodness. Awesome. Okay. So yay. Resistance training is the takeaway from that. Shall we answer another question? Yes. So now we have a question from Sandra. I think she emailed this. She said, Hi, Melanie. Can you tell me if you think that taking a CBD gummy will break my fast? My eating window is usually around four hours between 4 to 8 pm. I need the gummies for sleep, but I don't want to take them until bedtime around 11 pm, but I definitely don't want to break my fast. What are your thoughts about this?

Vanessa Spina:
I almost don't want to answer this one. So I was thinking about it this week when I saw the question, because I make gummies for our family. They don't have CBD in them, and I'm just laughing because I have little kids, so of course I'm not putting CBD in there. But I make gummies for them as like health food gummies, like I put nutrients in them. They're kind of like vitamin gummies, and they're so much fun to make, and I make them little teddy bears. But in making them, I know you put gelatin in there, which is protein. It's basically like, I think it mostly has probably glycine and proline, and maybe hydroxyproline, similar to collagen. So those are amino acids, and so anything that is an amino acid, I'm not sure to what degree it would trigger mTOR, but it definitely would not put you in a state to stimulate autophagy. But I don't think that you need to worry about that. If you need them for sleep, you know, as we were just talking about in this episode, you could do 30 minutes of resistance training, and you could get as much autophagy as a three day fast. So if you're worried about that interfering with your autophagy, don't. You have autophages ongoing and occurring all throughout the day, just at different degrees. Sometimes it's way turned up, like when you do 30 minutes of resistance training or long term resistance training, and sometimes it's turned down, like right after a meal. So my answer is yes, it does break a fast, but I wouldn't be concerned about missing out on autophagy for that reason, especially if you need them for sleep. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so similar thoughts. Well, I know she wasn't asking about autophagy specifically, but that would be something that goes with breaking the fast. A few different thoughts. One is if you want to be, quote, safest, you could look into my favorite brand of CBD, which is Fields. And the reason I love them is they only use MCT oil as the carrier. No additives, really pure and potent and tested. And I just, I love them. So I take that every night. I would definitely purchase in general for listeners, look into Fields CBD. And I know we have a coupon code for them. I think if you go to fields.com/if podcasts and use the code if podcast, there should be a pretty good discount. That said, if you're still taking after your eating window and I'm not, and I don't want to say this and to just write cart launch, like free tickets, like it's totally fine to take fast breaking things after your fast. That's not the message I'm trying to give out here. And at the same time, basically at 11 o 'clock when your eating window ended at eight, you're still in the fed state. Like you're not, you're not in the fasted state and taking a CBD gummy, which is, I highly doubt a lot of calories. Like it's probably a very minimal experience. It's not going to kick you out of fasting because you're not fasted yet. Yes, you're in the postprandial state. Like you stopped eating, but you're still in the fed state. So it's probably not really changing any mechanisms that are happening. And it's such a small amount of calories that you're probably going to deal with it pretty quickly. So basically I would not worry about it. I would still recommend getting feels CBD, but I wouldn't. And this goes for actually anything where like you have your eating window ending, you know, in the evening. And then if there's like a supplement of sorts that you take for sleep, I just, I wouldn't stress out about it. And at the same time, I would always try to find the cleanest version of all of these supplements. And most of the times, I mean, honestly, I can, I don't like making blanket statements, but I think I can say almost 95% of the time. If you're taking some sort of supplement, you can probably find one without any problematic fillers in it, or at least pretty benign fillers. So yeah, that's my thoughts. Any other thoughts to those thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
No, that's such a good point you bring up about being in the post-absorptive state. I didn't even think about that. So if you just had dinner, you're going to be in the post-absorptive state or the Fed state for four to five hours. So a few gummies wouldn't really, I don't think, prolong that much more. So that's a perfect point. So another reason to not stress about it.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm glad you said that because I want to further clarify about that concept. The difference there is say you are deep into your fast and you have a gummy, which presumably is sweet and has a few calories. If you're into the fasted state, then your body gets hit with all of these mixed messages and then that might actually, quote, kick you hormonally out of your fast and restart the craving cycle and the context here is everything. It's a different thing taking it an hour or two after you ate versus deep into the fast. So, okay. Shall we go on to the next question? Yes, I'd love to. Okay. And then actually to end things, we have one more question about fasting and supplements. Vanessa, would you like to read this question from Rebecca? Yes.

Vanessa Spina:
So Rebecca is asking about algae and fasting. She says, Hi, ladies, I love the show. I listened to Melanie's biohacking podcast about algae and I'm wondering if taking spirulina tablets in the morning when it's recommended would break the fast. I take the chlorella before bed. So even though I'm technically fasting, I know I'm still in the fed state from eating in the evening. So I don't really worry about that. Thank you, Becky. Well, perfect question.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, perfect, perfect question. So, spirulina, just really, really briefly, we've talked about a ton, so I won't go overboard, no pun intended, but it's basically a blue-green algae, super rich, super rich in all of the nutrients. We are talking over 1500% of your vitamin A, 100% of your vitamin K, over 600% of your vitamin B12. And yes, this is a vegan form of B12, which is amazing. It's got 53% of your iron, and then it just has measurable amounts of so many other vitamins, B vitamins, B2, chromium, potassium, magnesium, so many things. And then it also has all of these unique phytonutrients like superoxide dismutase, which is an incredible antioxidant. It has glutathione, it has CoQ10. It's literally like a real food, whole foods form of a vitamin, and I'm obsessed with it, which is why I made it. I made an Avalon X spirulina. So, to answer your question, Rebecca, we, on my bag, we do not say anything about taking it in the morning, so I'm not sure where that was recommended. On our bag, we say take it with or without meals. Basically, take it based on your nutritional needs. So, to answer your question, well, I left out one of the main things. It's also high in protein, relatively speaking, and it's a complete protein, which is amazing again for vegans. So, yes, it breaks it fast, 100%. It's high in protein, high in nutrients. It is a food. I know it can be taken like a supplement. Mine comes in tablets, so you can swallow it whole. That said, you can eat it like a food, you can crush it and put it in smoothies. It is a food. So, yes, it breaks it fast. And it's, yeah, like Vanessa was saying, this is perfect timing that you take the chlorella right before bed, and you literally understand what we were just saying before that you're still in the fed state, so you don't really worry about it. And I would say the same thing about spirulina. People often ask me how to take it, and I suggest taking it in the eating window because it's a food. That's how I take it. If you take it during the fast, I consider it breaking the fast. So, that is my answer there. Any thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
That's exactly how I recommend it. I just did a podcast episode about what I eat in a day, my supplement routine, everything. And I talked about how I always have my spirulina whenever I open my eating window. And then I also have the cholera right before bed. But I know there is another company that recommends taking it in the morning for all day energy.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, okay. My thoughts to that are, you could say the same thing about food. You could say, take food in the morning for all day energy. And it's just a completely different paradigm than the fasting, eating paradigm. It's my thoughts on that. And if friends would like to get my AvalonX spirulina, they can go to AvalonX.us and use the coupon code Melanie Avalon, and that will get you 10% off. So definitely check that out. And you can actually also get a 20% off coupon code when you text AvalonX to 877-861-8318. So that is AvalonX, A-X-A-L-O-N-X to 877-861-8318. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun recording and I can't wait for the next episode. Love all the questions as usual from our wonderful listeners.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Awesome. Well, listeners, you can get the full show notes as well as links to everything that we talked about at the show notes link, which is ifpodcast.com/episode382. And then you can email your questions to questions at ifpodcast.com. You can also join my Facebook group and ask questions there. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @MelanieAvalon and Vanessa is @KetogenicGirl. I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had a great time and can't wait for our next recording likewise.

Melanie Avalon:
I will talk to you next week. All right talk to you then. Bye. Bye.


Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!