Welcome to Episode 386 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
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SHOW NOTES
LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!
International consensus on fasting terminology
Listener Q&A: Patti - I’m sure it’s different for everyone but... how long does it generally take for your body to adjust to IF?
Dietary and physical activity adaptations to alternate day modified fasting: implications for optimal weight loss
Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 386 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 386 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hello, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I am great. How are you? I'm good. There's a pretty cool product I sort of want to tell the audience about that I've been using that I'm becoming increasingly obsessed with, if you'd like to hear about it. So have we talked about this? How much do you obsess about sleeping, like sleep environment?
Vanessa Spina:
Maybe a little bit more than the average person, not insane.
Melanie Avalon:
It's probably a good safety scale. I'm crazy. I do all the things all the time. And I'm really into sleep temperature. Sleep temperature can be really important for falling asleep, staying asleep, all the things. And I cannot sleep if I am not cool. So that's why I use the cooling mattress, which has been a game changer for me. I've tried a lot of different blankets to stay cool historically. And this company reached out to me, and they are so interesting. So they're called Hilu, H-I-L-U, have you heard about them? So they make a blanket, and it's made of graphene fabric. And so this fabric actually adapts, they call it smart technology, but it actually adapts and changes your body temperature. So the way it works is that that material actually conducts and transfers heat. And I hope I'm understanding it correctly. But basically what it sounds like is the fabric itself, that material, likes to live at a place of around 64 to 68 degrees, which is the perfect temperature for sleep. And basically whatever it touches, it makes what it's touching become that temperature. I'm not explaining this very correctly, but basically if you're overheated, it will literally pull the heat from your body. So whereas most blankets, you would put them on, and regardless of your baseline state, they would make you warmer in theory, this, if you're warmer, it will pull the temperature from you. And then on the flip side, if you're too cold because they want to create this, you know, this live at this baseline temperature, they would warm you up. So regardless of what temperature you are, they regulate you to the, quote, perfect temperature for sleep. And I didn't believe it, but it actually works. It's like shocking, especially because it's like a very, very thin material. Like it is not a thick blanket and yet it, it just regulates your body temperature. And it's so, so soft. It feels so good. I'm just obsessed. I'm going to use it for every night now. So yeah, that's my new like biohacking fun thing. And I do have a code for listeners. So if they go to melanieavalon.com/hilu, that's H I L U and use the coupon code Melanie Avalon. That should give you a discount. I'm actually setting it up with them right now, but I'll just lock that down. But yeah, that's my new fun thing. I love when I find things like this that are actually changing my life. So yes, have you heard of this material before Vanessa or this magical blanket?
Vanessa Spina:
I haven't. No, I've heard of different kind of cooling pads and things like that. I think the main thing that we focus on is temperature, making sure it's really cold in the room. And we both just sleep so much better with cold air at night. And I've heard these cooling pads. I always thought my husband would really sleep well on a cooling pad, but I've actually become a super hot person now. I'm so hot all the time now from all the thermogenic-effective protein. My metabolism and everything is so different. And I used to always be a cold person, which makes it hard in a relationship when one person's always cold, the other person's always hot. And now we're both really warm all the time, so it makes it a lot easier. But I think we probably could really benefit from some kind of cooling pad or something like that, especially because the kids are there, too, all the time. And they're so warm, so we have to counteract some of that as well. But yeah, it's deep sleep. Enjoy it all for me because you are getting all this amazing uninterrupted sleep, I'm guessing, every night. And you don't really appreciate it fully until you don't. It's different in this phase of our lives, for sure. So we do whatever we can to get it in because it is so important.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Okay. Well, first of all, yeah, the cooling mattress, also a game changer. And you mentioned, so I use the Oohler. You mentioned, you know, having your partner and now you guys are both similar sleep temperatures. Oh, which same here. Like I eat all the protein before bed. I eat right before bed. So I eat those pounds and pounds of protein literally. I think last night I ate, oh gosh, I think maybe I ate like five pounds of protein last night, maybe, or six. And then I went to bed and it was so hot. I would have died without my cooling mattress, but the Oohler, they actually make a two sleeper one so you can change the temperature on either side. So if you have a partner and you guys are, even though I know you said you guys are similar now, that can be really great for people. Like I can't recommend that enough. And then this blanket, it's so amazing. It's like you put it on and I just feel it like pulling the heat from my body. It's incredible. And I'm very, very proud of my sleep because I historically identified as an insomniac and really, really struggled to sleep. And now I'm like pretty good. And my aura ring reports back pretty good. And I basically all the things that I do really work. I just don't think I'm like, some people are just like great sleepers. Like they just go to sleep and stay asleep and wake up. And that's never been me. But if I do all the things, I can get by and give myself like a B plus, I guess. So anything else new with you?
Vanessa Spina:
I recorded an amazing podcast with this PhD scientist who got his PhD in autophagy and we talked, we had the most amazing conversation. I think it's one of my all-time favorite episodes ever of the Altamont protein podcast. And I got the episode back yesterday, which is the day that it goes out on Monday. And my microphone was not plugged in.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
So I almost started crying. I didn't I wanted to cry but I instead pivoted quickly to what I could do And I was like, I'm just gonna rerecord my parts because his audio sounded great So like this will be really easy and I was like super fired up. So I rerecorded all of my parts and Then I thought it would be very simple process, you know, cuz it's back and forth you talk I talk like they you know It's like relatively straightforward, but it ended up being very complex for my editor To do because you know, he doesn't understand, you know, a lot of the terms we were talking about You know, so it's not that he can't it's just he's not familiar with you know, these different terms, especially when you get really Really in-depth on you know, some of the pathways and stuff which we were super going this deep dive You know very complex stuff and so he put out the episode like around midnight and I was waiting and waiting for it So episodes release and I'm listening back to it in bed. I've got both kids sleeping next to me and I'm like gets about the half an hour mark and this is a 90-minute episode and Whatever. I said was not matching up to whatever he said. I was like, no, no, no, no Oh, no, and we thought we had like I knew he was struggling already But I had already sort of you know Addressed it with him and corrected some things and he said he thought everything was matching up He double-checked it so I get out of bed Download the episode and I'm sitting here in the office just like cutting and pasting Two in the morning Damien starts crying. So I go get him He's on me and I'm sitting here like just cutting and pasting all this stuff and even for me I was like having a hard time piecing together, you know, which parts are would anyway finally got it out and I'm so happy. I re-recorded my audio because the audio was on my Mac book and it just sounds so Tinny, you know and it hurts my ears Like I really really it just it was such a beautiful episode such an important one for me And I'm so happy that we got it, you know fully sorted out I think there's like like there's one part of the episode that was lost forever It's like I'm not gonna get it back I just have to let go and move on because probably nobody will notice anyway, but so now I need that's why You know, we started recording today. I was like, you hear me because you know, right? I swear I double-checked it, but it must have gotten, you know knocked or something But yeah, it's one of those things like when you I know you recently interviewed, you know Dr. Gregor and you had to rerecord and it's like in our line of work, you know Those are like there's a few things that can go really wrong It's like you're not recording or your mic isn't plugged in and yeah But thankfully we were able to salvage it and I'm so happy with the episode now, but I learned so much From talking to him. I was mentioning it in the last episode. It was such a great conversation on, you know, what exactly Triggers autophagy just some really cool cool stuff and I was also I also tagged you This past week this amazing new study came out or paper came out, which is an international consensus on fasting terminology And when I saw this it was like the clouds parted it like hallelujah you know was playing my head and I I tagged you right away because It's such an amazing paper and it has so many Fasting experts were involved in it like Christopher Valter Longo Mark Madsen, you know, Dr. Satchin Panda. I mean, I think they had 38 Scientists in total they you know came together to form these definitions It's really really cool how they actually define them because this is one thing you and I have talked about so many times about how frustrating it is when you're reading research and You know the title of the paper is like intermittent fasting and protein or intermittent fasting and this and then you start reading It and you're like wait, this is not this is not fasting at all, you know, so they came out with some really cool definitions I can mention a few of them that are relevant to intermittent fasting if
Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I would love that. I'm dying to know what they are.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. So they, I think they did a really good job of it. They had 38 experts of them and they were defining fasting, which is the voluntary abstinence from some or all foods or foods and beverages. Modified fasting, which is restricting energy intake to maximum 25% of energy needs. Fluid only fasting, which, you know, speaks for itself. Alternate day fasting, which also is self-explanatory. Short-term fasting is fasting.
Melanie Avalon:
I don't actually don't know that it might not be self-explanatory for some people. So what is alternate day fasting?
Vanessa Spina:
Fasting. Fasting on alternate days of the week. So fasting one day, not fasting the next day, fasting the next day, not fasting the next day, just alternating your fasting with the days of the week. So does it happen?
Melanie Avalon:
have to be like every other day or can it be a few days?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. It's every other day. Yeah. And I'll get more into the specifics of it, but this is just sort of in the introduction. So the short-term fasting is two to three days, prolonged fasting is four or more consecutive days of fasting. And then they also defined religious fasting and intermittent fasting, which is repetitive fasting periods lasting under 48 hours. And then they also defined time restricted eating and fasting mimicking diet. So specifically when it comes to intermittent fasting, we have some really, really specific terms. So I think in the future, anyone who does a study involving fasting should be using these terms, hopefully, because they had all the top fasting scientists it seems in this paper. So with regards to continuous, they define continuous fasting regimens and they defined intermittent fasting, regimens, and then special fasting and religious fasting. So like I mentioned, the short-term fasting is fasting regimens with a duration of two to three days, prolonged fasting, also called long-term fasting is four or more consecutive days. Periodic fasting refers to any fasting that is repeated at regular intervals. So every day, every week, or every month. Then with intermittent fasting, they defined about five different terms. So intermittent energy restriction, IER, includes periods of caloric restriction, alternating with periods of ad libitum eating. So that's very similar to what this community follows. So intermittent energy restriction, you have caloric restriction and fasting, and then ad libitum eating, which means you can eat as much as you want for however long as you want in that period of, in that window of eating. And so under the IER, they have intermittent fasting and time-restricted eating. And then intermittent fasting refers to repetitive fasting periods lasting up to 48 hours each. IF includes fasting, includes regimens of one fasting per week, two separate or consecutive days per week, alternate day fasting, ADF, and time-restricted eating. And then time-restricted eating is where you have food intake and the consumption of caloric beverages. So they even defined the fact that your beverages have to have calories in them, are restricted to a specific period of time during the day, resulting in a daily fasting window of at least 14 hours. So that also sounds like both of those kind of apply to this community specifically. There's no explicit limit on energy intake during eating hours. So they really got specific on this. And then alternate day fasting refers to alternating a day of eating, ad libitum, and a day of water only fasting. So that's very specific. One day of water only, one day of eating as much as you want with no limitations. Alternate day modified fasting is alternating a day of eating ad libitum and a day of modified fasting. And then they talked about special fasting regimens like therapeutic fasting, which is any kind of fasting regimen that you're using as a therapy. And then they talked about the fasting mimicking diet, which is specifically a diet that is specifically composed to induce the metabolic effects of fasting while allowing for a potentially higher caloric intake, including solid foods. And it refers to a plant-based calorie-restricted diet with a maximum of approximately a thousand calories a day and lasts for three to seven days. So they're using this FMD sort of moniker for any diet like that, which is really interesting. And then they have things like intermittent dry fasting, intermittent fasting that involves abstaining from food and fluid intake during fasting hours. So super specific and I think really helpful. You know, I think there were some things I think that are worth mentioning, which is they define the difference between water only fasting, specifically where only water is consumed for a certain period of time. The term total fast or complete fast, which is a fasting regimen where no calories are consumed for a period of time. And then they defined like fasting itself as a voluntary absence of some or all foods or beverages for preventative, therapeutic, religious, cultural, other regions, other reasons, and dry fasting and modified fasting, which I mentioned, mentioned at the beginning. So we'll link it in the show notes if anyone wants to check it out. I think it was very much, you know, long overdue to have these terms, but better late than ever. And I'm so glad that I think maybe Grant Tinsley was involved in spearheading this. He was one of the experts on the panel. And it's really helpful. I think it should hopefully serve as a guide for future studies that are done on fasting. And so if you're doing something that is outside the strict terminology, then theoretically you shouldn't be able to title it as a fasting diet or, you know, I think these clarification on these terms makes a big difference.
Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Okay. Well, first of all, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for going through all that. That was so fascinating. Okay. So it sounds like, because one of the terminologies that I think I got would historically get the most, I guess, on the fence about what to use was intermittent fasting versus time restricted eating. Okay, wait, wait, did they call it time restricted eating or time restricted feeding?
Vanessa Spina:
Time restricted eating, and I heard another scientist recently talking about how they only use feeding for rodents now or for animals.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Wait, you heard him talking? Where does he talk? Does he go on shows?
Vanessa Spina:
This was a podcast with a different scientist who was doing a podcast with a scientist on autophagy that I just interviewed. So I was watching it in the past week and he did most of the intermittent fasting and autophagy research in humans that's come out recently. And he was saying that's, he was clarifying when they, why they don't, they don't use feeding anymore for humans. It's basically just for animals or other life forms used. And stuff.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay, and the aliens. Yeah, exactly. Okay, that is so helpful for how we talk about it going forward.
Vanessa Spina:
Dr. Sachin Panda, he, when I interviewed him, he sort of explained the difference to me between intermittent fasting and time-restricted eating. And they did, I think maybe some of the definitions around that are from him in this paper because it sounds like what he was saying to me, which is the time-restricted eating is really only like a pattern of eating where you are defining the hours, like 16, 8, 24, et cetera, which again is like what a lot of people who listen to this podcast or in this community do. And then intermittent fasting, he said, you could intermittent fast, but you could also like sort of eat. It doesn't really matter specifically with the time intervals, like it's less, less defined by the time intervals, which makes sense from the terminology, time-restricted eating versus intermittent fasting. Like he was saying, you could do intermittent fasting over a couple of days or there's no sort of strict definition around the timing of it.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So basically all time restricted eating is intermittent fasting, but not all intermittent fasting is time restricted eating.
Vanessa Spina:
That's exactly what he said, much better said.
Melanie Avalon:
for the time, does it have to be actually time on the clock? Or can it be like counting hours? Like I fast for 12 hours? Or could it be like a one meal a day approach? Do you know, by chance? Well, they said,
Vanessa Spina:
said that the daily fasting window had to be at least 14 hours. So I don't know if that helps. They don't really mention like clock time, but you have to be fasting doing at least 14 hours for it to be time-restricted eating. But it's really interesting. Dr. Sesh and Panda told me when we had our conversation on the podcast that the reason that they did the eight-hour eating window became so popular around the world was because that's how they did the study. And the reason that they did eight hours is because the student that he had running the labs for him had to be home for dinner with his girlfriend at a certain period of time, and also because of like there were rules around how long students could be in the lab. So you couldn't like overwork them, etc. And so they ended up doing eight hours because that was when he had to go home to have dinner with his girlfriend and based on the rules there. And then it became this whole like 16-8 thing became so big, but it actually just was because of that sort of fun fact.
Melanie Avalon:
That's so funny. I love that. That kid. Who knew? I wonder if he realizes what he created. Oh my goodness.
Vanessa Spina:
He must know because Dr. Kanda talks about it.
Melanie Avalon:
Wow, that is so cool. I would have loved to have just seen the experience of spearheading that discussion and, you know, and talking to all the different researchers. And I wonder what was the most intensely debated one.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and I think the way that they did it actually was through surveys.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay.
Vanessa Spina:
So I'm not sure if they had an open forum, but it says they had five online surveys. Oh, and then they had a live online conference with the 38 experts and 25 of them completed all five surveys. And then they use that to generate the consensus on the terms as well as the live open forum. Yeah. So that, yeah, would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall for sure.
Melanie Avalon:
agree with all of the terms, mostly.
Vanessa Spina:
For the most part, the only thing that I think is still troublesome is, you know, just in the summary, it says that fasting is the voluntary abstinence from some or all foods or foods and beverages. To me, it should be all foods and beverages. Why is it some or all?
Melanie Avalon:
So when you first read that, I thought that, but then when you read all the definitions, I was like, oh, it makes sense because some of them are not like, you know, the fasting mimicking diet or the therapeutic fasting. So I think it's like allowing, it's this huge umbrella that's allowing for all the different layers and shades of restriction.
Vanessa Spina:
That's so nice. But if it was me, I would have not allowed those in there. Because to me, that's part of what creates confusion, even though there will be less confusion. In my opinion, fasting should just strictly be the voluntary abstinence of all food or beverages and then add a part about time or period of time, as opposed to some or all. And some or all foods and beverages, or foods and beverages. Because then, to me, fasting mimicking diet, I know it has a lot of great science behind it. It's not fasting to me. And it's just like when we were discussing the research with Dr. Paula Arciero, his approach, where he was doing this protein pacing, to me, again, was not fasting. It was eating. It was caloric restriction. And I think fasting mimicking should be under the umbrella of caloric restriction. And so should that approach the protein pacing. With Dr. Paul Arciero, I love his work. But to me, that's caloric restriction. And it's not fasting. But that's my opinion.
Melanie Avalon:
So what would, because I just love this conversation. So what would you call? So somebody who is quote, juice fasting, would you just propose using a different word there? Yeah, they're juicing. Juicing. Okay.
Vanessa Spina:
I don't get it because the word fasting to me is absence of and then you're putting food in front of it like fat fasting. No, you're just eating fat. You're not abstaining from eating fat. So I think that's where it's, I think again, these terms, especially that word get fasting gets used in all these wrong ways because it's trendy and it gets more clicks and it gets more attention, et cetera, saying fat fasting or fasting mimicking diet gets way more attention than saying like just eating a tiny bit of food. Like no one really wants that. Just eating fat, no one wants to do that, but fat fasting, I mean, I don't know, that's just my opinion. What do you think of these terms?
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so well that's two good examples. So fat fasting, like we were talking about where people basically eat just fat, that actually makes no sense because saying fat fasting makes it sound like you are fasting from fat. I would take it the other way even though it means people are just eating fat. I can see how the word fasting could mean fasting from and then it doesn't necessarily have to be all food. That's why I'm sort of okay with the umbrella definition. And then with fasting mimicking, I don't have a problem with that because it doesn't say it's fasting, it says it's fasting mimicking. I do agree with you that it actually would be a lot cleaner if we could have fasting be just complete abstinence and then have different other words like juicing and I would keep fasting mimicking because that would make sense because it's mimicking fasting, like the effects of fasting. Yeah, I do think it would be cleaner. I can also see why at this point, I guess there's so many different words that they want to be more lenient with the main word.
Vanessa Spina:
It's when I saw it, I was very excited when I read what it actually was. I was a bit less excited, but still happy that it's out there and I'm interviewing the, I think the lead author on this, see when a couple of weeks, I think, so I will have to ask him for August 14th. Yeah, in two weeks, exactly. Well, so I'll have to ask him about, about some of these things and I'll have to challenge him a bit on, but I get it, you know, they're trying to be inclusive, but, you know, I think sometimes being inclusive comes at a cost and some of these, these things are just getting, they're getting slipped in there with the fasting because it gets more attention than if they called it what it actually is, which is a very low calorie diet. Like that has so much, I think negative connotation to it or low energy diet, you know, that's what some of these protocols are. But when you call it fasting, it's like, Ooh, it doesn't sound so bad now. Right.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, actually pointing out that piece of the puzzle, I definitely agree that we probably should go stricter because like you said, there are so I mean, there's so many studies where they do that where they they call it fasting, and then they're eating things and it just is so it's just very, what's the word misleading, very misleading.
Vanessa Spina:
it is. What I do like about the paper is that they talked about a lot of the mechanisms behind fasting, you know, why it's sort of having or being implicated in influencing aging, extending lifespan, you know, how, you know, they did a pretty good summary of the biochemical pathways of how, you know, it modulates different signaling pathways. I like a lot of aspects of it, like for the most part. So I'm pretty happy that they came out with this. So let's hope that there's more consensus now in the research on these terms. And I think it's a good sign also that this is being put out there now because, you know, fasting is as popular as ever. So it's a good time for it.
Melanie Avalon:
What's the article called again and what journal was it in?
Vanessa Spina:
So, it was published in Cell Metabolism and just now, as of I think five days ago, so July 25th, and it's called International Consensus on Fasting Terminology. Awesome. I just sent you the link.
Melanie Avalon:
Perfect. Thank you. We'll put a link to it in the show notes, which will be at ifpodcast.com/episode386. And so the head researcher that you're interviewing him, did you already have him booked and then you read the article?
Vanessa Spina:
booked him on the podcast like two weeks ago. And then I think it was last week, he just published this on Instagram. So pretty neat. Yeah, it's so cool. Yeah. And guess who I just booked yesterday? Who? Dr. Luke Van Loon. Oh, the protein guy. Yes. The one who did that amazing episode of Peter Atiyah. And I have been talking to his colleague and they together did that paper on the hundred grams of protein, having no upper limit on muscle protein synthesis. So now I have to prepare like heck for these interviews. You know, it's like, okay, I finally got them booked. Now comes the hard work, you know, because one of them is in October. And I'm like, I'm glad because it gives me time. Like this is something I'm going to be doing all like all my weekends till then are going to be preparing for this, you know, because I've got regular the other interviews during the week. So yeah, but I'm really excited.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Congrats. That's amazing. That interview was so fascinating. It was.
Vanessa Spina:
It really, really was. Yeah, so he's done, I think, more protein research than maybe even Dr. Don Lehman or similar amounts. Yeah, really exciting.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, I can't wait for that. Let me know how that goes. Yeah, he was awesome. That interview, I just, it took me forever to listen to because there was just so much. Every sentence he said I had to like think about.
Vanessa Spina:
I still think about how he talked about when you look at the little droplets of fat in the muscle and how the mitochondria have little backpacks of fat droplets.
Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, thank you. That was that was great. That was much needed years and years we needed that. Yes. So awesome. Okay. Should we answer some listener questions? Yes, I would love to. Would you like to read the first question?
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, our first question is from Patti Connors and the subject is how long? I'm sure it's different for everyone, but how long does it generally take for your body to adjust to intermittent fasting?
Melanie Avalon:
All right, Patty, thank you so much for your question. So interestingly, this was one of these questions that I thought was going to be so easy to find studies just answering it. And it was not easy for me at all. I don't know what your experience was, Vanessa, but I just couldn't find studies talking about this. What I did find, which I decided was the route to go for me, was just look at studies, looking at intermittent fasting, and see what they reported for the participants' experience of that. So when did their hunger go away, the adherence? Because I think a really good sign, because there's a question here of by adapting or adjusting, you know, what do you mean by that? And for me, that's basically when you're not hungry anymore, and when you have energy while fasting. So I tried to look at studies that talked about when participants no longer had hunger while adjusting to a fasting regimen. And now every time I say fasting, I'm like, am I using the right word? So for example, there was a 2010 study called Dietary and Physical Activity Adaptations to Alternate Day Modified Fasting Implications for Weight Loss. That was an eight-week study in obese individuals. And they found that they were hungry for the first week, but then they were less hungry the second week. So it sounds like by the second week, they were making some sort of adaptations here. And then interestingly, they were low in satisfaction the first four weeks. So the first month, they felt a little bit not satisfied. But then that started increasing after four weeks. So it sounds like for them, you know, they started adapting after a week. And then they started making even more adaptations probably after four weeks. Interestingly, it said that their perception of fullness remained low throughout the entire trial. Another study. So this was four weeks of 16-8 time-restricted feeding, although we should call it time-restricted eating, as we have learned. That was in healthy adults, 16 healthy adults on their normal diet. And I liked this one because this one felt very real life. Like it's normal people on their normal diet doing 16-8, which is a very common approach that we talk about. And the actual type of students, it was mostly grad students and people in health care. And they were looking at their stress levels. So it was highly stressed individuals. And they actually found that, well, overall, this is a side note, but they found that the fasting approach, the 16-8 approach was actually really good for decreasing their acute stress and their hunger. And it was week two when hunger started going down and it continued to go down over time. So that was a similar finding to the first study where it seems like week two is when people were really adapting on the hunger front. That's just two studies, but very similar findings. And then historically, just when I've done research on this, and I remember I actually talked about this in my book, What Went Wine. I was looking at adherence to intermittent fasting. And in general, the adherence levels seem to be a lot better and like perceptions of fullness and well, I know the other one said that fullness was low, but in general, it seems that people often have more satisfaction and adherence and satiety on fasting compared to typical, quote, calorie restriction approaches. But just looking at those two, looking at my own personal experience, and also what I hear from a lot of listeners and people in the audience, it seems that after the first week is when you start making adjustments, at least on the hunger front. And then as you continue, it seems like further adaptations continue, including at the month mark, the one month mark and ongoing. Do you have thoughts, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
I love everything that you shared. I think that was so smart to look at. I was more so thinking and looking at the timeline on metabolic switching.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes, which I think is a huge part of the question as well.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it is and I guess it would be more, I was thinking about that and I was also reflecting back on my conversation with Cara Collier at NutriSense and how she was talking about some of the signs that people are starting to get into insulin resistance because I think that obviously being able to undergo the metabolic switch, which is really well-defined in the scientific research, is your body is using up glucose and glycogen and that usually takes around 12 hours to deplete in the liver and that's usually when the body makes a fuel switch to predominantly using fatty acids and ketones. And so if you were doing an 18 hour fast, for example, then you would be fasting for 12 hours on your stored glucose and glycogen and then you make the metabolic switch and you'd be fasting for six hours using your fatty acids and ketones. So reflecting back on my conversation with Cara, I think it sort of depends on what your background is and what your activity levels are because that's going to determine how quickly you deplete the glycogen in your liver anyway, in your muscles. It's sort of a different compartment. So you could deplete that just from doing some exercise, but you won't actually deplete your muscle glycogen unless you do exercise. It's only your liver glycogen that will get depleted, which is really interesting. So your tissues, your body will predominantly be using fatty acids and ketones after 12 hours. So if you feel pretty good after 12 hours and you are making that metabolic switch and you're able to fast beyond 12 hours. And according to the paper we just talked about, you hit a minimum of 14 hours, then you are officially intermittent fasting or doing time restricted eating. Then it's a pretty good sign if you can make it 14 hours is basically what I'm saying, because then you are making the metabolic switch and you are now in fat burning mode predominantly. So if you're able to do that pretty easily, then it's probably going to happen quite quickly for you. Whereas if you're struggling to make that metabolic switch and you're finding yourself not able to go very long without food, it probably will take more time to adapt. So I think that's going to have to do with your physiological status in terms of how insulin sensitive versus insulin resistant you are and how metabolically flexible you are, which I'm now learning about the metabolic flexibility really comes in a big way from activity levels. So how active you are, I think is going to be one of the biggest levers or switches. What's the word I'm looking for? Dials to turn when it comes to being able to make that transition smoothly and do it faster, if that makes sense. So the more metabolically fit you are, the more metabolically sensitive you are, the more active you are, you're probably going to make that switch faster. Whereas if you have a bit more metabolic healing to do, it's probably going to take longer if that makes sense.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes, it does. And I'm so glad that works so well, because I feel like we covered the two aspects of it, which is like perfect. I was hoping, I was like, I hope Vanessa has like the specifics about the, what you just said. What was the first time you did fasting? Do you remember fasting? No, I can't even use the word. Every time I use the word, I'm like, am I using the definition? Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
by abstaining from food or partly abstaining from food.
Melanie Avalon:
When was the first time you completely abstained from food and intentionally completely abstained from food for a period of time?
Vanessa Spina:
So I'm going back to my Ori Hofelmecker days when I read Ori, who we still need to have on this show, our origin story. I'm going back to when I read an article about him, then I read his book, and I decided to try the warrior diet. And I'm pretty sure I loved it pretty quickly. And I felt good doing it. However, I believe I had been doing keto. And I had been doing a little bit of like Maria Emmerich approach at the time, which was more around adding in fat and making the transition. So lowering carbs and adding fat. And Ori's approach was like, don't eat until have one meal a day, you know, at the end of the day. And, you know, he was like, have all your carbs last or something like that. I'm trying to remember back. Unfortunately, I don't really clearly remember if it was that hard, but I don't think it was. But I think it was because I was starting to already get into that metabolic switching and making that, you know, bioenergetic switch from the glucose to ketone metabolism. And I think that that's something that I've spoken about in the past that definitely helps. They really go well together. You know, if you are looking to get into more fasting, lowering your carbon take can definitely help because you're going to be lowering that stored glycogen. And then you're going to help your body be able to burn fat more excessively, more, more efficiently. And so it can help when making the transition. Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I was really similar because I was also doing the warrior diet. I think, so I remember, I think Ori actually allows for like light snacking during the day on, I didn't do that, but he allows it on things like lettuce. I distinctly remember like reading that you could munch on like lettuce and stuff.
Vanessa Spina:
fasting mimicking or protein pacing.
Melanie Avalon:
I was so similar to you in that I was already low carb. I was doing Atkins. And so I think that really helped with the transition. But I will always remember probably my first day because it was, I was so intentional about it. And it was like a thing. And I thought it was going to be so hard and it wasn't.
Vanessa Spina:
I think I remember you said something about how you were on set or something and so it was easy because you stayed busy.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes, yeah, I was on my friend's film set and and normally on film sets, there's craft services, which is like the snack area. And normally I would always just like snack the whole time. So this time I, I just drank the teas the whole time. And I remember, yeah, I remember thinking, this is going to be so hard. And it was doable. And I thought I was doing some it's so interesting, because I thought it was like this huge mountain to climb. And now the fact that I've done it almost every single day for over a decade, it's so, so, so interesting how your paradigm can shift. So yeah, I thought I was going to do it for a week and then I never stopped. That was, that was that story.
Vanessa Spina:
It's actually amazing that you've been doing it for that long without changing it up. Like, I change it up all the time. I'm constantly doing different experiments. Yesterday, I tried doing three meals a day. Whoa. Yeah, I was trying carbs and I tested oatmeal, which I haven't had in like 10 years because I've been reading to Luca Goldilocks and the three bears. Oh, have you been craving oatmeal? He was like, why are they, he's like, what's porridge? Why are they eating porridge? So I was like, I'll make you some porridge. So I made a porridge. And then I was like, oh, maybe I should test some oatmeal and put some protein powder in it because I've been experimenting with having a small meal with carbs in it before I work out. And I'm loving it. I'm able to get a whole other set done. I'm enjoying my workouts way more. And yeah, I've been sort of talking about this on my podcast a bit, how I've been doing this. But so I was like, let me test oatmeal because I've heard this is something that spikes your blood sugar, you know, as much or more than like white rice or white bread or whatever. And of the day on Sunday, it was my lowest post meal response.
Melanie Avalon:
lowest blood sugar response.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. After the meal, like we had a lunch that day of duck and I had like sauerkraut or pickled cabbage, and I had a much bigger spike from that. And then I had like yogurt and protein powder and strawberries later, and I had a much bigger response, maybe, you know, because of the insulin sensitivity in the morning, but I did a test of it again this morning. And same thing. It was like even smaller blip than on Sunday. So I was expecting to have this crazy high spike. And I think it's just because of my resistance training, partly, but oatmeal does not spike my blood sugar at all, like even less than strawberries. It's crazy. And after all that, Luca had like two bites and he didn't like it. So.
Melanie Avalon:
That's so funny.
Vanessa Spina:
I do tend to stick with the same things for certain periods of time but I love experimenting so I'm always changing things up and I'm trying this eating before I work out and lately my workouts have been in the morning so I've been having a breakfast meal and then sometimes I'll have like a lunch and a dinner just the last few days and yeah it's super different than what I usually do although I'm sure there's one of these fasting terms that I could fall under because I'm still I'm still fasting for at least 14 hours so technically it's still
Melanie Avalon:
It's still, in terms of fasting. No, no, no. It's still time restricted. Time restricted eating. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes. Well, it says that intermittent fasting is repetitive fasting periods lasting up to 48 hours.
Melanie Avalon:
It'd be both. It'd be because all time restricted eating is intermittent fasting. So you automatically get two labels.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes. Yeah. So that's still, I'm still, I'm still fasting with my three meals a day.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so the entirety of that window is what to what, the three meals?
Vanessa Spina:
So today, for example, let's see, I had my first meal. I can look at my CGM. I had the first meal at 10 and then I had my last meal right before we started recording, which was seven. So is that nine hours?
Melanie Avalon:
Okay, yeah. And how much protein do you get in that window?
Vanessa Spina:
So I can tell you exactly because I've been tracking everything right now because I'm I've been really fascinated with tracking And seeing what i'm doing because it is a little bit different than I thought it was I'm actually eating way more than I thought I was like I started Tracking because i've been doing some podcasts about my daily routine And I didn't realize my calories were so high like there's a few days last week where they were like 2500 calories I had no idea that I was eating that many calories, but I guess i've been breastfeeding for a while So but my protein is like crazy high like it's even higher than I thought it was and I thought it was pretty high so on sunday It was 176 grams and that was like a small day for me. So most days it's like 220 to 250
Melanie Avalon:
Pounds of protein.
Vanessa Spina:
grams of protein in terms in terms of like not grams of the food weight, but the protein in the food The grams of protein in the food because I know that's confusing sometimes especially if you're in Europe because everything here is grams So like when you go eat, they'll be like your steak is 200 grams But the protein in that obviously is different. But yeah most days I'm getting around 220 grams of protein and some days even higher and I had no idea it was that high like I knew it was high So like the other day it was 225 and then like my carbs have been around 75 to 100 because I'm testing all kinds of stuff now, but I'm having so much fun Experimenting with all this different stuff and all this is just to come back Well, I am still intermittent fasting technically, but it's it's really interesting So I haven't had three meals a day probably since before or a huffle maker. So that was like, you know, it's been a long time. Yeah Yeah, I've always done the two days two meals a day felt like You know, I there's no way I could eat more than that. But if you eat smaller meals like if you just have For example some oatmeal with a scoop of protein powder in it. That's like 200 calories So, you know, that's a nice for me pre-workout meal And then I kind of have like the rest of the meal after working out So it's almost like I'm splitting up that first meal onto two
Melanie Avalon:
It's really nice to hear because, you know, we get so many questions. We actually had one and the potential lineup, but we're not getting to it. We get a lot of questions about people feeling like they can't fit in enough protein within, you know, certain eating window. And it's hard for me to speak to it from my perspective, because from my perspective, like I said, I literally will eat, you know, like five pounds of meat in one sitting, so I'm not a good example because most people are not doing that. So people who have a longer window, it's nice to hear that you, you know, you successfully can have three meals with protein in nine hours and it sounds comfortable for you, right? You're not, you don't feel like you're, or are you trying to get it in?
Vanessa Spina:
It's very comfortable. I think it's actually way easier to get in the amount of protein that I want to. I don't think I need to eat this much protein, but I enjoy it. And, you know, there's no upper limit on muscle protein synthesis as I've learned. And I'm in the years, you know, when, like, now is the time you want to build as much muscle as possible while you can. So I'm really trying to push, you know, the protein and the resistance training while I can grow muscle still. So yeah, I think it's, I'm finding I'm enjoying it. It's, but I definitely am doing it on the days that I'm resistant training because it's a pre-workout meal. So if I were to go back, like on a day that I am not, like, I think was like, was it yesterday? Yeah. Monday. Yesterday I took the kids out all day to a playground with a friend and I didn't get home until three and I fasted the whole day. I didn't have my resistance training workout. And then I had, I did OMAD. So, and there wasn't any even thought around it. It was just like, that's what happened because I got up, you know, took coffee to go and basically, you know, didn't get home until later. And then it got home, started making dinner and we ate at five. So it was like, I didn't need to have that before because I wasn't doing resistance training that day. So I think that's kind of fun to, to like, just be able to adapt to whatever your day is on days like that. I don't want to be eating multiple meals. You know, I want to just have one meal, probably maybe two, but because I'm trying to push myself in the gym to make bigger gains, that's really what I'm optimizing for right now. I'm finding that the pre-workout meal is really helping and I'm still getting the mitochondrial biogenesis because it's really the exercise that's pushing that as well as the metabolic flexibility. I thought it was the facet exercise that was doing that. And now I'm learning that it's the exercise itself. So I may as well fuel myself a bit before so that I can enjoy the workout more, get stronger and put on more muscle. So that's, that's sort of why I've been playing around with that. But again, I really admire that you have been practicing the same form for so long.
Melanie Avalon:
really the only thing that changes is the the macro breakdown. So like I've talked about a ton, you know, I basically either do high carb with that protein, or not even high fat, but I'll add fat and not have any carbs. So but it's always massive amounts of protein. I just love protein. I find it so delicious and so satiating and so amazing. It really is. One last question. Exercising in the fasted versus the fed state, does that change your, I guess just for me, I don't like the idea now of working out in the fed state. It just feels, it feels heavy in my body. Does it feel heavy at all?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so I was talking to this recent guest, Dr. Chad Kursik, about this because, you know, I was doing the facet workouts for two reasons, because I thought I was getting more mitochondrial biogenesis, which I've just learned because of Christy Storastruch's new study that I wasn't, it's the exercise that's doing the mitochondrial biogenesis, not the fasting. And so there's no, that's sort of like, that I was saying to Dr. Kursik, it didn't really matter to me, anyway, because I don't like feeling full when I'm working out. But then I realized I don't have to have a huge meal, just something small. So I started with doing just yogurt with protein powder and some strawberries. And it's a small enough meal for me that I don't feel it. Like in the sense that I'm like, oh, I'm full or like I'm bloated or, you know, if I were to sit down and have like an OMAD feast and then go work out, you know, that would not be the same situation. I don't think I would be able to work out, but a small meal, you know, I think, and I was just listening to Dr. Stacy Sims, who I'm interviewing soon. And she was on Huberman. And she was talking about this other scientist who's a woman who did research showing that having some protein before the workout has some amino acids circulating signals the body that there's fuel on board. And that's really good for women. So I'm learning more about some of the benefits of doing that. But to answer your question, it's such a small meal. And so she was saying like, she even does just sometimes like she'll make a coffee the night before with protein powder and just have that, you know, as a pre-workout. And so yeah, it doesn't bother me because it's just a small amount, you know, but that small amount does replenish the glycogen. I thought I still had enough from the night before. But Dr. Kirksik was talking about how it just refills your glycogen stores so you can push way harder. And that's what I had been noticing is I was like, smiling while I was working out. Like I was like, this is so much fun. And I'm, wow, I really feel like I can push more, I'm actually getting stronger. And that's really, you know, the sign that your VO two max is improving the sign that you are gaining strength, etc. hypertrophy, you can see, but all the other things, you know, your fitness level, your metabolic flexibility, you can tell that if you are getting stronger and faster, and you're able to do more. And so I'm finding that that is enabling me to push, push harder. And I don't feel like sluggish or, you know, in any way compromised from for the workout.
Melanie Avalon:
It's such a different experience for me to imagine. So it's really nice to hear about. And it's really exciting because it means there's so many different approaches that people can do when it comes to their fasting and their exercise and getting their protein in, and it's all doable.
Vanessa Spina:
I feel like we are in the midst of a big, you know, shift and change just, you know, in the health space. So many more people are talking about protein resistance training, especially women, and it's just a really exciting time to be in this space. And you can get it done with intermittent fasting. One of the things that was the most exciting that I was talking about with Dr. Escobar, who was the topology scientist, is we were talking about how mTOR and AMPK, I used to think of them as pathways that were completely counter-regulatory and separate from each other. So if you want, you know, the autophagy, you have to be AMPK, you have to be in the AMPK sort of pathway of breaking down catabolism, that's going to initiate autophagy, but he talked about how mTOR actually initiates autophagy. It's much more complex and not as black and white, you know, as we thought of it. So you can actually be in the mTOR, working out, eating protein, doing the resistance training, endurance training, whichever exercise you want, and be getting the autophagy. It doesn't have to be just in the breakdown mode to get the autophagy. So you kind of can get the best of both worlds. I think that's really exciting, but yeah, just the last thing I wanted to share.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's crazy and super counterintuitive. So, huh, awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing all that. That was so incredible. So helpful. Keep me updated. Let me know when you move to formulas per day.
Vanessa Spina:
I know I'm going to be like stepping on stage with my six meal. A little six meal per day or? Yes, yeah, yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
Crazy. Well, for listeners, if you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. We are contemplating having guests on the show, so if you would like to submit to have your story featured on the show, like actually be interviewed by us, you can go to ifpodcast.com/submit and there is a submission form there. And then like I said, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode386. There will be a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, including I guess we should give a link for Nutrisense that people would like to get their own continuous glucose monitor for that they can go to I think it's nutrisense.com and you can use the coupon code I have podcast. Yeah, you can follow us on Instagram. We are I have podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and Vanessa is ketogenic girl. So anything from you Vanessa before we go.
Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun and I am really looking forward to our next episode. Me too.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much. I will talk to you next week. Okay. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
LINKS
BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com
Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
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