Welcome to Episode 387 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
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SHOW NOTES
BETTERHELP: Visit betterhelp.com/ifpodcast today to get 10% off your first month!
BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get salmon, chicken breast or grass-fed ground beef—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!
Listener Q&A: Stacy - To keto or not?
Listener Q&A: Jennifer - Salivation breaks fast??
Listener Q&A: Amiee - When is the best time to take berberine?
Listener Q&A: Denielle - I have a question about Berberine. Is long term use ok?
The clinical efficacy and safety of berberine in the treatment of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease: a meta-analysis and systematic review March 2024
Efficacy and Safety of Berberine Alone for Several Metabolic Disorders: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis of Randomized Clinical Trials
Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 387 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 387 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hello, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I'm great. How are you? Good. I was telling you, I think it's about to start thunderstorming. So if you hear thunder, my question for you is, how do you feel about thunderstorms?
Vanessa Spina:
We are obsessed with them. My husband is like an amateur meteorologist, so he's got the weather radar on his phone. He watches it quite often, so he'll tell us if a big storm is coming, and then everybody gets excited, and Luca gets super excited, and he's like, we watch the storm, we get a lot of them in Prague, so lots of lightning and thunder, and I've always loved them. But yeah, do you enjoy them?
Melanie Avalon:
I love them. I find it so interesting. They make me feel so safe. Like, I love sleeping when there's a thunderstorm at night.
Vanessa Spina:
It's oddly comforting.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes, and what's interesting about it is I remember I was talking to somebody and he was saying that they give him major anxiety and it made me realize just how much our experience of the world like our stress, our fears, our anxieties, our sense of safety, like it's all relative and probably all goes back to, you know, triggers and things from childhood. And it makes you realize that you could technically in theory be feel safe and good all the time. Like if certain, if your brain reacted to certain things, certain ways, I just, these are the things I ponder.
Vanessa Spina:
I love that. Yeah, I love summer storms. I get so excited when we get them here. Have you seen a tornado? I haven't in person. There was one here, I think last summer. So I saw a lot of videos of it here. And once when Pete and I were dating, I remember he was driving and we were talking on the phone and there was a tornado and he had to pull over under this bridge, this like underpass and hide there. And it was so scary. Oh, wow. Did you see it? Yeah, he did. And his sister, when we were in Denver last summer, there was a tornado in Littleton and it hit my sister-in-law's house, like basically took out the tree in their lawn. So they had to go and like whole of Littleton was like quite wrecked, not in a massive, massive way, but just enough that you're driving around and it looked like a tornado had come through there. So they are so scary. Have you ever experienced one? I have.
Melanie Avalon:
I haven't. I'm having flashbacks to high school when we used to have this, sometimes when my parents would go on vacation, we had this woman who would take care of us. She actually was a teacher at the school and she was from South Africa and she had a fabulous accent and she was crazy and amazing. I remember one time there was a tornado and she took us like, kind of like Twister where they're like chasing the tornado in the car. We like went in the car trying to find it. I don't remember if we actually saw it, which probably wasn't safe. But my mom, I know when she was, I think a young adult, a tornado hit her apartment and took the roof off, which is really scary. So anything new in your life? Lots of carbs. Lots of carbs. Oh my goodness. Because last time we talked about your oatmeal experience. Have you tried the way I eat where it's high protein and lots of fruit?
Vanessa Spina:
I haven't, you know, it's, it's funny. So with reintroducing the carbs, it's like some appeal to me and others don't. I don't know why. I feel like I could try anything right now for the sake of science, you know, I've been trying different things, but it's weird when you haven't eaten something for so long, you almost like forget it exists. I don't really think about a lot of carbs. I have to really intentionally like think about it. Like I was explaining last week, I tried oatmeal because Luca wanted to try porridge because we're reading about it in the storybook, you know, and then I did test a banana actually had a banana today and yesterday also pre-workout before my resistance training and also had no reaction to it, which is, it's just boggling my mind because, you know, I'm learning, I'm truly learning real time how if you make your body more insulin sensitive by building more muscle and you have more glucose disposal, when you eat carbs, it could just go into your muscles. It doesn't even, you can divert nutrients into your muscles and energy because you're activating those glucose transporters, especially with large muscle groups. So like I do a lot of lower body squats and a lot of lunges and things with weights, you know, activating those large muscle groups, it moves the glucose receptors to the surface of the cells so you can take up glucose. And it's one thing reading that and understanding in paper and then seeing it real time for someone like me, who I thought maybe I didn't know if I had the metabolic flexibility or if I had that reverse insulin resistance, you know, from being keto and carnivore and everything for so long, I realized I've been actually eating more and more carbs over the years just from the carbs that are in yogurt, that are in other dairy foods. And, you know, it's, it's really fascinating. So I tested bananas, you know, I do a lot of berries, like in my protein shake, but that's kind of been a couple of years now. I don't really think of like other fruits, like it just
Melanie Avalon:
Just don't pop into your mind.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. And even when I'm serving, I'm giving the kids watermelon or things like that, I don't have any pull to it at all. I don't know why. And there's a lot of carbs that I could have, I'm not interested in them. Anyone listening to me reintroducing carbs is probably confused by the way I've been approaching it. They're like, she's only testing hummus, chickpeas, black beans, you know, now oatmeal, bananas, like it's, it doesn't really, there's no like pattern to it. It's just kind of like what appeals to me that maybe I haven't had for a long time, like I kind of miss bananas. I wanted to try it and see what happened. And a just ripe banana, as Cynthia Therlogue calls it, doesn't affect my blood sugar at all, which is amazing. The oatmeal doesn't. So I'm curious to try more things, but I don't really know what to try next. You know, Oh, I did try a piece of jackfruit. Have you ever had jackfruit?
Melanie Avalon:
it when it's, you know, those like meat substitute things. Actually, actually, no, no, no, no, no. I think I used, I have had it in its original form. And I was trying, I was curious about it as a meat substitute. It was canned jackfruit. Did you have canned?
Vanessa Spina:
I had fresh jackfruit because I bought some for the kids and it was in the fridge. I haven't had it in so long and I was having the banana. I'm like, let me try a piece of jackfruit. And it was great. Also didn't have any like insulin or glucose spike after that. I'm not testing fruit or oatmeal or carbs or anything on days that I'm not working out. And that's one of the things that I talked about with Kara that she recommended for people who are reintroducing carbs is to make sure that you're adding in like the resistance training and the exercise to help blunt those responses. And it really is amazing. But I've never tried high protein, high fruit. It makes me think of you. It also makes me think of Dr. Paul Saladino. You know, I think yeah, there are some people definitely doing that. And I feel like I'm trying to stay somewhat low carb. Like I don't know if I want to go like high carb, high protein, I do want to say somewhat low carb because I do still have some healthy fats in my diet. So if I were to go like zero fat, I could probably try high carb, but that also doesn't really appeal to me. Like I love salmon and steak and eggs and, you know, a lot of the foods that I eat have fats in them. So I wouldn't, I don't want to, you know, approach any kind of energy toxicity situation with like high carb, high fat, and I even moderate it. It's easier to just do one or the other, as you know. So right now I'm kind of doing like low carb with, you know, a good healthy amount of healthy fats, but not too much. But yeah, that's what's new in my life is carbs. And I, I feel so liberated from learning more and more of the science around, especially glucose spikes and responses and how you can really build up your metabolic flexibility and your energy and glucose disposal through exercise. It really is amazing. If I had known this, and I remember there was a time in my life when I was probably the most fit I've been, I was doing a lot of exercise, probably too much cardio at the time, but I was weight training and I was eating a lot of carb, but I was not eating enough protein. I didn't understand protein the way that I do now. So if I could go back and if I was prioritizing protein, probably would have just stayed, kept doing that all these years, you know, and that was kind of when I was in university and I was also at my most, probably my, my most lean at any other time in my life then was doing sort of low fat approach, high carb, but the protein piece was missing. So I never really felt that, that satisfied as I do now. So it's, it's really interesting to me anyway.
Melanie Avalon:
Just to respond to the one piece about the, like, eating the fattier meat and then the high carb. So this is literally, this is just my experience, my N of 1. I have found for me that as long as I don't, as long as in general, I eat lean protein in general, so scallops, chicken breasts, fillet, Australia's Bare Moondi. And then if I have salmon occasionally, as long as I'm not adding fats, I haven't experienced any feelings that it creates any sort of competition with the fat and the carbs. I feel like there's just, and the reason I'm talking about this is I just feel like there's a big difference between adding fats to your food, like butter, oils, things like that. Even in small amounts, because when you add it in just a pure fat form, it's literally just the fat substrate compared to when it's in the whole foods form, well, A, there's less of it. And then I think digestion wise, it just requires a bit more. And A, the reason I'm talking about this is because I used to be, I think, a little bit fearful about it, especially since I was so high carb. But I've definitely landed at a place I feel good about, where as long as I just eat whole foods, protein, meat and fish, seafood sources, I feel okay about combining it with lots of fruit. That's just me though, which is my experience.
Vanessa Spina:
No, that's that's really helpful. Do you ever eat other like high? I know you for a while you did like lots of pineapple. I don't think you ever eat things like oatmeal or it's
Melanie Avalon:
really only been fruit. So, starches, it's interesting. So, starches make me feel, they make me feel actually too full, like heavy. They actually make me retain a lot of water and feel bloated. I just, I, oh, you know what? I'm having flashbacks. I was experimenting for a while where I would have like white rice and that was seemingly okay. But in general, I just, I really like the fruit and it's interesting. So, I'm actually prepping right now to interview the authors of The Mind Diet, which is, it's pretty much like the diet for Alzheimer's and dementia. It was the woman, she actually passed away. So, the book is actually written by her daughter and somebody else who worked in her program. She actually passed away of like a very rare cancer, which is really sad. She did this major, she did The Mind Diet trial a while ago and it was the first, you know, large study looking at diet to prevent cognitive decline and they came up with this whole mind diet thing and so I'm reading that book right now. But what's interesting is the only fruit in their mind diet is berries. So, you can have berries, but not other fruits.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that's what I naturally have been doing for a while, I think, because it's low-therapy.
Melanie Avalon:
low-carb. Low-carb, that's why it's on the plan or that's why you have it. That's why.
Vanessa Spina:
I have had berries is because of the keto and low carb, but that's interesting because I would assume that's why they're also on that diet.
Melanie Avalon:
No, it's, well, that's part of it. It's more so just studies that have been conducted on different produce and fruit. Berries and their research have been the only ones that really strongly seem to correlate to preventing cognitive decline. And it probably has to do with a lot of the polyphenols in berries. Yeah. So it makes me feel good about my pounds of blueberries that I eat every night.
Vanessa Spina:
I mean, in a way, you're still kind of low carb. I know you've done high carb before, but.
Melanie Avalon:
probably, I don't think it's not low carb. It's probably, it's probably moderate carb. I mean, I probably had about 150 grams of carbs in berries and cucumbers. So yeah, lots of carbs, lots of protein. Yep. So okay, eating. Should we answer some listener questions? Actually speaking of, because our first question from Stacy, she wants to know, too keto or not? She actually submitted that on Facebook. And then I asked her, what had she done? And she said, Oh, girl, pull up a chair. She said, I've done them all. Weight watchers, cabbage soup, keto. However, I'm an IF 'er for 2 .5 years after finding Jen Stevens. And then, of course, I found you. So the ultimate question, how should people know if they actually should do or try a keto diet?
Vanessa Spina:
I've been talking about this a lot recently on my podcast with multiple guests about how helpful keto can be specifically for people who want to improve metabolic flexibility and tap into fat stores, lose some body fat. And it's really interesting because the ISSN, the International Society of Sports Nutrition, which is sort of like a governing body in my field because I'm a sports nutrition specialist, they just came out with this position stand on ketogenic diets. And they basically said, look, if you want to do keto for athletic performance, it's probably going to have a neutral effect, could potentially have a detrimental effect, but it's probably going to have a neutral effect depending on the sport that you do. But at the end of the day, keto is superior in the research for fat loss. And I've looked at so many studies over the years. I really think you can do any kind of approach in terms of your fuel mix. If you prioritize protein, I think you can also do keto, which is a lower protein approach for a while. It is really helpful for burning fat, for losing some fat mass. And losing fat mass is one of the best things you can do to improve your metabolic health. It has so many benefits. Just in terms of longevity of cardiovascular health, cardio metabolic markers, it is really, really helpful to lose fat and also improves insulin sensitivity as we talked about. But it can also help you with getting some ketones on board and improving your ability to burn fat, as I mentioned. But if your goal is, for example, fat loss, ketogenic diets are extremely helpful in the sense that they are very effective, the evidence has shown, the scientific literature has shown very effective for fat loss. The ketones that you get also help to suppress appetite. And because you tend to eat more protein and healthy fats, these are also GLP1 agonists in the body, so they can help with satiety and fullness, especially protein. Although the protein is not necessarily that high when you're doing traditional keto, it is when you're doing more modified keto. So some people find keto to be a great lifestyle. They really enjoy that style of eating and it is something that is sustainable long-term. Like I said, there are some advantages to it in terms of fat burning and also satiety. But ultimately, I would prefer someone choose a strategy that they can adhere to more long-term. So if you do keto and you're kind of white-knuckling your way through it, I wouldn't say that's probably the best choice because it's not going to be an enjoyable experience. Some people, they really take to keto really well. Like I did, I really enjoyed eating that way for a long time. I think it was partly because I was plant-based and vegetarian for so long. I really love the emphasis on animal foods and animal protein and just how satiating it was to do. But I think that if you are someone who prefers to eat high carb with optimized protein intake and that's something that you could sustain for longer and you are enjoying that more, then I would say you could lose fat either way. It really comes down to a caloric deficit. Some people find it easier to do like a higher carb approach, low fat, and some people find it easier to do keto. So I would say if it's something easy, organic, enjoyable for you, then it's definitely worth a try if your goal is fat loss. But you can also achieve fat loss just as well with other approaches that are not as restrictive for some people. So I would say it comes down to personal preference and what is ultimately going to be more sustainable. What are your thoughts, Melanie?
Melanie Avalon:
loved all of that so much. Yeah, it really, really comes down to your goals and it comes down to like Vanessa was saying, what works for you personally, just because the type of personality I am, I love self experimentation, and I love seeing how things feel in my body. So for me, I'm like, I sort of would love if everybody could try it at least once just to see how it feels like to experience that state and see if it works for you. And if it's something that you want to keep in your life more or not, I do what's interesting about the weight loss studies. And I think we've talked about this before. I remember there was like this massive review on low fat versus low carb diets in which worked best for weight loss. And then they concluded that there was no difference. And what was a little bit frustrating about that because I've heard that study referenced on multiple podcasts. We've even heard like Lane Norton talk about it. But the nuance of the study was that it basically averaged out to no difference. But if you looked at the individual responses of people, there were big differences. So basically some people lost more weight on low fat and some people lost more weight on low carb. But because when you took all of the data together, it was similar weight loss or, you know, not a statistically significant difference in the amount of weight loss. They were like, okay, it's all the same. But literally that's like not what I found at all. It found that people react differently to the different types. So it really just goes to speak about how much you have to find what works for you. Like Vanessa was saying, it can work for weight loss. Other things can work for weight loss. I would probably try it if, well, if I would try it if I had certain therapeutic health things that I was looking at. So I was speaking earlier about the mind diet and theirs is not a ketogenic diet, but it is lower carb. And I think it also probably depends on where you're coming from. So like if you're coming from a standard American diet, a high carb diet, I think keto can be a great way and Vanessa was mentioning this as well, but a great way to, you know, get your body metabolically adapted to burning fat and really help just like fix the machinery that can be so broken from our modern diet. So I think it can be a really great stepping stone into, you know, potentially really, I don't like the work fixing because it's not like you're broken, but you know, really optimizing your metabolism. And I guess what I would ask first Stacy, because she's tried keto before and she's tried, you know, other things before and she's been doing intermittent fasting for two point for two and a half years. So my question is, So why do you have this question? Like, why are you contemplating? Why did you not, why did you stop doing it in the past? Why are you contemplating doing it now? And why are you on the fence? Like, I would be really, I would ask myself, if I was Stacy, I would ask myself that question. And I think those answers might reveal which direction you should go. You know, is it because are you on the fence because you don't know if it will work? In which case there's, I'd be curious what type of keto you try in the past, and there's a lot of different versions of keto people can try. That's the other thing, and Vanessa also touched on this, because keto can manifest in so many different ways that may or may not help support your ideal state of being that you would like to be in. So there's a big difference between like a high, especially when it comes to weight loss and things, like a super high fat version to keto, which is what a lot of people jump in, versus a, not a low fat keto, but just a high protein where you're not adding on tons of fat. I think there's a lot of metabolic magic that can happen for people when they try that approach if weight loss is one of their goals. Also, I've talked about this, I haven't talked about this in a while, but I do think there's another approach you can try where if you do wanna add fat, only adding fat in the form of MCT oil, that fat is actually very thermogenic and it stimulates the metabolism, and it's also not easily stored as fat. So it's kind of like this keto hack where you can have more fat in your meals, but if weight loss is the goal, it can potentially be more supportive of weight loss. Yeah, I feel like I'm talking all over the place, but basically to keto or not, I would highly recommend people try it and see how it feels. And ultimately, I just really wanna support not getting into any fear-based mindsets and feelings that you have to be doing one way. And it goes both ways. So when I was keto for a long time, I was terrified of carbs and I was terrified of bringing them back in. I think a lot of people on the flip side will be really scared of fat and they'll be really scared of doing a more keto approach. So ultimately, I just wanna encourage people not to have a fear mindset surrounding all of this and just be curious. It's exciting, actually, all the potential things to try. Did you ever try the cabbage soup diet or Weight Watchers?
Vanessa Spina:
I never tried Weight Watchers. I did try the cabbage soup. That was really big when I was in university. And so was the lemon one, the lemonade.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, the master cleanse one with the lemon and they have like the cayenne pepper or something.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, the maple syrup with lemon juice. I mean, I don't know if it's funny, all these different things. They always are communicated in a way that they have like magical properties, you know, that they're the combination of the cabbage with this and that is creating some kind of fabricating effect. But it's really just thinking back on it now, like just really very low calorie diet.
Melanie Avalon:
right yeah I can see how like maybe the pepper stimulated the metabolism like a little bit but mostly it's just that you're yes very low-calorie and no fat like like literally no fat exactly so yeah I I don't think did I do cabbage soup I feel like I probably did in high school I didn't do Weight Watchers I remember looking at the food list and it was crazy it had literally every potential thing you could eat on there like there are all these animals on there it's like raccoon it's like who's eating raccoon that's like my memory of Weight Watchers
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, the most like the biggest diet thing that I changed or tried really was Atkins because it was so different, but I really was not doing it properly. It's funny because you, you know, you think like some of these, because we've both been like in this space for a long time, some things seem very straightforward. But, you know, I look back on the mistakes that I made and I always think about when I did Atkins, you know, it was, I definitely was, was still eating carbs, like I remember, I was eating so much fat, but I was still eating carbs with it. And I wasn't eating like any protein because I didn't understand protein at the time. You were eating carbs, like what carbs? Like I would, I would eat things that still had, like, I remember during induction, you know, they're like, you should eat like Philadelphia cream cheese. But I would, I would put like poppy seed dressing with it or like, and that was, you know, it definitely had like sugar or honey or something in there. But I thought, like, I just didn't get it. And, and, and it's, it seems so obvious to me now, but at the time I just didn't get that you shouldn't be doing that. And I, yeah. And I remember when I started keto, I was just eating so much fat and I gained a lot of weight, like I gained 20 pounds. And it was so funny to me because I didn't, I didn't expect to gain weight on it because I was following like the main keto at the time, which was, you know, like recommending to do things that would get you really high blood ketones. And I was testing my ketones and I was getting like four, five, 6 .0 millimolar. And I was just eating a lot of like omelets with cream cheese and like avocado and fat bombs. Just like so much fat, really no protein, like, well, actually I'm in the eggs, but not a lot of protein, like traditional keto. My ketones were through the roof, but I was definitely overeating calories from eating so much fat. And so, but because I was in ketosis, I didn't think that I would gain weight. And I, I seriously thought that something was wrong with my dryer because I was like telling Pete, like, I think my clothes are shrinking in the dryer. Like I think there's something wrong with the dryer. Like that's how psychologically I, I couldn't, I had some kind of like, what is it called? Cognitive distance. Like I didn't understand that I could gain weight doing keto because I thought I'm doing it perfectly. And I just thought that my, my clothes were shrinking. It sounds so ridiculous, but Pete and I were in Las Vegas and we had a photo taken in the same place that we had a year ago when we were there for a friend's wedding. And we did like recreated the same pose and we went back up to like our hotel room and I saw the photo and I was like, whoa, cause I did like a side by side. And I was like, I think I need to weigh myself. And I was, I had gained 20 pounds and it's crazy to think that you could be in denial so hard that you wouldn't even realize that. And I didn't want, I didn't step on the scale because I thought I'm have to be losing weight. I'm got really high ketones. And so I completely understand all the mistakes that people make when they try keto and they, you know, do all the fat bombs and do all of this. And it can be helpful to transition as long as you don't overeat on calories and you gain weight in the process because then you're just worse off than you were at the beginning. Whereas you can get into ketosis without adding all that fat and without doing all the fat bombs and, and eating all the cream cheese and everything. And I think also because people are tend to restrict fat when they start keto, they're like, oh my gosh, this tastes so amazing. Everything tastes so amazing that you almost can't help but overdo it a little bit. So I know so many people that, you know, that happened too, but that was, it's so easy now looking back to realize all the things that I was doing wrong. But at the time it was really hard to understand what I was doing wrong.
Melanie Avalon:
No, I love that. It's interesting. I had some similar experiences. Well, I definitely had the epiphany moment, but it was probably a catalyst in me starting keto. But I had that moment where I weighed myself. It was after when I went to college and I definitely gained a freshman 15, but I remember I hadn't been weighing myself at all. And then I went on vacation with my family. We were in Aspen and I weighed myself and it was the same thing. I'd gained 20 pounds. And I was like, how did I gain 20 pounds? And that was after like a semester, you know? I'm like never going to do something.
Vanessa Spina:
Wait, was it because you did Keto or just because you're in school?
Melanie Avalon:
I'm glad you asked. So that was, I had not done keto yet. And then I went to college and I, you know, it's like buffets and it's, you know. So after the first semester, because going to Aspen would have been spring break. So yeah, a little bit over one semester or I guess three fourths of the year. Yeah, that was not a fun moment. And then I think that's when I was like, okay, I got to lock this down. And then I think somewhere after that ish time, because sophomore, that was freshman year and then sophomore year is when I found the keto world. I think looking back, I like how you shared like, you know, the things you would have done differently and the mistakes. For me, what I would do differently and my thoughts about that is that I had, I just remember having this idea in my head, especially from reading all the keto forms and everything. I was like, oh, like fat, fat does not get stored as fat. Like that's what they make you kind of like, they're not, they make you think it, but there's definitely like a community there, especially in the Atkins world. Like you're mentioning where it's like fat is unlimited, like all the fat all the time. And I literally have this picture in my head of like eating fat and it just like going through me. Like I was like, I won't absorb it because insulin is low. And now I just know that's so not true. That's not accurate. I've said it a lot, but the reason insulin is low, the reason fat does not stimulate a lot of insulin is because it doesn't need a lot of insulin to be stored as fat. Major paradigm shift there. And I do think if, especially if we're talking about like keto and stuff, I think a lot of people, especially if keto is not working for them, if they are still having lots of like dairy and cheese, I think that's a good place to start. I think there's a, I think there can be a big difference for the weight loss/weight gain potential of a keto diet with like a lot of cheese and dairy compared to a version without it, because cheese and dairy are pretty much a hormonal food that is made to help support weight gain in a baby.
Vanessa Spina:
I've changed my thinking on, on, I used to always tell people to avoid dairy during fat loss periods, but I've really found, especially the research done by Dr. Stu Phillips, high protein, low fat dairy is one of the best tools for putting on lean mass, especially in women. Mm-hmm. It's like cottage cheese.
Melanie Avalon:
cheese and stuff.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, like I tend to do low fat yogurt, which is high protein. And that's a staple in my diet every day. And there's so many things you can do with it. You know, you can make it into salad dressings. You know, it's so great just with like yogurt, protein powder, maybe some berries in there, but it's such a versatile food and yeah, I mean, some people love the cottage cheese. I've, I've tried that a couple of times and it's great as well. And that's, you know, there are now more and more high protein dairy options in the store, you know, they even have like a high protein Philadelphia cream cheese, which I recently tried the one here was not super flavorful, but it was okay. But maybe the one, you know, I'm sure they have some different options in the US, so that was not my favorite one, but I have this amazing high protein yogurt. And I've had some other cheeses that I liked that are just lower in fat and therefore higher in protein. And, you know, I think in the past I was always like don't do the dairy because if you look at most dairy foods, they have 20 to 30 grams of fat per hundred gram serving, so they're 20 to 30% fat. But the higher protein dairy can be, I would say if you're for fat loss under 5%, so yogurt that is zero or 2%, you know, the closer to zero you get, you know, the better tool it is for higher protein, lean mass gains. And, and if you are doing body re-composition, I'm a big, big fan of it. And whey protein.
Melanie Avalon:
Sorry, I'm so glad you said that. And I actually am. I'm actually in literally complete agreement. So I'm really glad we're talking about that nuance. And yeah, I guess I'm talking more about like, cheese, like the normal cheese, like the full the fuller fat cheese where, which is so, and maybe this is me, but it's so addicting to me, like cheese, I would just keep eating cheese. And for people who respond that way, we know it's a lot of it has to do with it's actually made to release case of morphine, basically bonding compounds, like feel good neurotransmitters in you because it helps bond the child to the mother. So it can have kind of like almost opioid like effects. Who cheese I would just I can't I'm like, I have to be like an all or none person with cheese because cheese is a slippery slope. I do want to clarify I actually I agree as well about the potential magic with the low fat high protein dairy foods. Be really careful though. And Vanessa provided like a lot of examples of good versions of that. Be careful when you are looking at those products because oftentimes, they make up for the lack of fat with a lot of additives. Look at labels when you are looking at those products to make sure it's not filled out with all of these like gums and stabilizers and additives and flavors and things like that. Yeah, there's definitely a big movement though. And I think especially in the I don't know wouldn't be paleo would be more the well, maybe it's the paleo world. There's like this movement where you shouldn't have low fat dairy because you need the fat to get the health benefits and it's too processed. And I actually I just I actually don't agree with that. I think if you can find, like I said, versions that don't have all those additives, I think it can be a great food.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, one of my favorites, it's harder to find sometimes in the US, but sometimes you can find it is I have this goat cheese. I really like goat cheese and it's 10% fat. So it's similar to the high protein cream cheese, but it tastes so much better to me than some of the lower fat cheeses. Sometimes the lower fat cheeses are kind of plain, but for some reason the goat cheese, maybe just it just has a little bit of fat in it and like 10 grams, like a moderate amount. And I use that quite a bit as well, just with like unprotein bread or salmon, like smoked salmon cream cheese. So yeah, I think there are some great options and it's such a great, it's a whole food category. So, you know, I don't know, some people are really strict, like when they're saying just don't have any dairy during fat loss. Usually it's don't have any dairy and don't have any nuts. I definitely agree on the nuts, except for the nut milks. You know, I think like we both said, there's lots of.
Melanie Avalon:
options for that. That's why for a while period of time I was making my own cottage cheese because I couldn't I wanted fat-free cottage cheese and all the fat-free cottage cheeses on the market have all of this stuff added to them and I was like I'm just gonna make my own and I kept googling it they're like you can't make it with skim milk and I was like I think I can and it did work mostly. That was the whole phase. The timing was off because I was doing that and then I feel like I stopped and then cottage cheese became like super popular so I missed that trend. The nuts are interesting because there's a lot of correlational studies that find nut intakes correlate to lower weights but I think that's more speaking to the types of diets that people are following maybe not so much I don't know it's really interesting but I will say if you just think about it from a evolutionary historical perspective if you were to eat nuts out in the wild like getting nuts shelling nuts like there's a lot of energy required to get like a nut like a lot of energy like you want like a walnut you gotta like go get the walnut off the tree you gotta crack the walnut then you got the walnut compared to um you know these jars of just shelled nuts that's just so much energy with no energy expenditure required to get it and yeah so I think nuts can be a dangerous slope for some people. Cashews are my downfall.
Vanessa Spina:
They are so good.
Melanie Avalon:
Shall we, nah, I'm getting hungry. Shall we go on to our next question? This question comes from Jennifer. The subject is salivation breaks fast with two question marks. Jennifer says, thank you so much for your dedication to researching all things IF and beyond. I love your podcast and I binge listened since I started my IF journey about three weeks ago. My question is, if smelling food causes salivation, which technically is the start of digestion, can this break a fast or have any impact on a fast? I simply cannot control the sights and smells of food around me while fasting. I can only control what I put into my mouth. Thanks again for everything and keep up the great work. I know we've talked about this topic before, but it's been a while and I just also love her sentence, which is such a beautiful mantra, which is, I'm gonna say it again. I simply cannot control the sights and smells of food around me while fasting. I can only control what I put into my mouth. So much agency in that statement. I love it. Vanessa, do you have thoughts on this?
Vanessa Spina:
I definitely understand the thinking here and also because of things like the cephalic phase insulin response, which has to do with tasting sweet things that secreting insulin. From what I've learned regarding insulin, especially in the last couple of years, it sort of changed the way that I perceive it and understand its mechanisms in the body. I personally would not be concerned with any small elevations in insulin because the majority of the insulin that is secreted by the pancreas is helping your body to not only clear your bloodstream of different fuels and store them away and put them away in the right cells to be used for energy, but also for keeping energy in your cells. I wouldn't be concerned with any insulin responses if that's what you are concerned about, but I think what you're specifically asking about is digestion. I think, again, it's a really interesting question, but I don't think that this would have any material effect on a fast. Even though I know there is research and I know that, for example, Melanie and Jin have talked in the past about tasting things in certain sensory, I think maybe even Jin talked about different food smells. This is not something I personally would be concerned with. I think it also comes down to your goal with intermittent fasting. The science really shows us that intermittent fasting does have some benefits beyond caloric restriction, but it really is mostly a tool for caloric restriction. Having any sights and smells of food around you because you're not ingesting any food, it wouldn't have any effect ultimately on your outcome. However, it might just be more challenging for you to do the fast. If you're constantly around food stimuli, that's the only thing that I could think of that it would make it potentially more difficult. If you're trying to fast and you are constantly around the sights and smells of food, as you mentioned, that's the only negative that I would personally see from it.
Melanie Avalon:
I'm in agreement and so something that's helpful to know about the cephalic phase response of releasing insulin, it's actually a two-part response. And so basically there's a little bit of insulin that's like primed and ready to go and that's what's released. I think it probably can be released from smells, but it was released from basically anticipation and so having that first taste. And then once you actually start eating, then the pancreas jumps in and actually starts churning out a lot of insulin. So the good thing about that is, and this is just my theory, but my theory with that knowledge would be that if you smell something really delicious, maybe you have that first phase cephalic insulin response, but it caps just a little bit of insulin and then you'd have to actually be eating to get the actual, you know, intense insulin response. So knowing that has really helped me with that perspective. To go back again to what she was saying about controlling your environment versus what you put in your mouth, I just really, really like what she said there because in general you probably can't really control the sights and smells of food. I mean, you can to some extent, but you want to live your life and if you're passing smells and things like that, I just want people to know that even smelling the things and all the things like you, you still have that moment between actually eating them or not. So I wouldn't stress, I wouldn't stress about the sights and smells. I wouldn't purposely engage in them or go looking for them, but they're not going to ruin your fasting. They're not going to start digestion to any grand extent. And you still have complete control over everything that you're doing. And like Vanessa was saying, we do have a baseline state of insulin being released all the time and that is to keep our energy in our cells. And I think that's a huge paradigm shift that a lot of people don't realize. Like it's not like there's no insulin and then there's insulin. No, there's always baseline insulin keeping your fuel in your cells, which is a very healthy, necessary needed process. So insulin is not to be feared. If you do release a little bit from that first phase of the cephalic response, still nothing to be feared. It's all okay. Keep on keeping on. Shall we answer another listener question?
Vanessa Spina:
Sure. So we have a couple of questions about berberine. Amy from Facebook says, when is the best time to take berberine fasted before eating after eating? Question mark. And then from Danielle. Hi, ladies. First of all, thank you for the podcast. It's a bright start to my week. Oh, that's so sweet. Thank you so much. I have a question about berberine is long term use. Okay, I know that the two of you are seekers of the truth and investigate multiple perspectives. Thus, I want you to answer not some Google search. I have found very scary studies that say berberine can cause cancer. I have found studies that say it really doesn't do much, but most studies say use it for three months and then take a break. I have been using berberine since August along with longer fast and a few other changes. I'm seeing my body change slowly but surely I don't want to stop taking it, especially as we go into the holidays. However, I will if it is best to take breaks from it. I currently take two of Melanie's capsules at the end of my eating window around 6pm. So please answer is berberine safe to use all the time. Do I need to cycle its use? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you and have a fabulous day.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Thank you so much, Amy and Danielle for your questions. Yes. So I haven't talked about brain in a while on this show, but basically it is a compound, a natural plant, phytochemical compound that has incredible effects. People think about it often for blood sugar control. So studies have found that it can be comparable to metformin for glycemic control, but has so many beneficial effects beyond that for an array of health benefits, especially like cardiovascular health and cholesterol and even anti-cancer benefits, which is interesting given Danielle's concerns about cancer potential. So I will first answer the, I guess the safety question from Danielle. So I would be curious. So I looked a lot. I couldn't find any scary studies saying berberine causes cancer. So I would love to read those. I'm wondering if it's people talking about that potential. I couldn't find it. And I also couldn't find studies saying to take a break from it, but I have heard a lot of people say that. So I actually thought, so when I sat down to research, I thought I was going to find a lot of studies saying that. I couldn't find them. So the majority of studies, I found a lot of studies on berberine safety though, and efficacy, and they're all very, very promising. So there was a lot of meta-analyses. So I looked at, for example, clinical efficacy and safety of berberine and the treatment of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. That was a meta-analysis and systemic review from March, 2024. I looked at one called efficacy and safety of berberine alone for several metabolic disorders, a systemic review of meta-analysis. That was in 2021. And then I also looked within those reviews. They would reference other reviews. I looked at one on cardiovascular disease that I don't have in my notes right here. What was interesting is that pretty much everything I looked at, would talk about how berberine has very high safety and that it doesn't come with these problems of pharmaceutical drugs. So that was just like the thing I kept reading over and over was that there's not, there doesn't seem to be a ton of issues that the most common side effects there would be would be GI issues. For most of those, they tended to go away, they tend to be either in particularly high doses, but when that was found, it was not across the board. Some of the studies did talk about how those side effects went away by the end of the trial, but it really does seem to be GI issues that people seem to experience if they do. Oh, they're also potentially, obviously, of course, always talk with your doctor because there could be drug interactions. But I just wouldn't be concerned, I couldn't find scary things. I would love to read them. If you do have them, feel free to send them to questions@ifpodcast.com because I would definitely love to read them and update accordingly. But everything seemed pretty good about the safety profile. And then as far as when to take it, so the dosages can range for it. In general, the dose is usually around 500 milligrams, three times per day before meals is a common approach, so that's 1,500 milligrams per day. But it seems to range in general from around 500 milligrams to 2,000 milligrams per day. My AvalonX Berberine 500, each capsule is 500 milligrams, so two capsules is 1,000 milligrams. I personally take two in the morning during my intermittent fasting and then I take two before my meal. When it comes to timing and when to take it, I would take it, most of the studies seem to have people take it before their meal. So for Danielle, who's taking it at the end of her eating window, I would switch that, take it before your meal and try that. Yes, what I've done, and this is just how I naturally cycle it, but it's not that much intense with cycling. I still take it every day in the morning, but I actually don't take it if I'm doing a low-carb approach, and so that's how I take a break from it. But in general, I do take it every day. And it was really nice to go through all the reviews because I was just looking for safety and efficacy, but I was just hit with the overwhelming amount of health benefits that this supplement has. It's really, really incredible, especially the effects on cardiovascular health and the number one killer or the number one disease killer is cardiovascular-related disease. So to see its beneficial effects on that was amazing. Same with non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, and there are some showing anti-cancer benefits as well. And then I definitely formulated my berberine, my AvalonX berberine, to be the very best on the market. It's free of all problematic fillers. It comes in a glass bottle. And wearing a CGM, before that, I was using Thorne, which is a company. I do love Thorne. I think it's a really great company. I've actually interviewed the CFO, sorry, the CSO of that company. That said, I actually, when I started taking my berberine, I thought it would be comparable to Thorne, that I would see the same effects on my CGM, and I actually saw even greater reductions in blood sugar, which was amazing. I would not be fearful of berberine, but of course, speak with your doctor, your knowledgeable health practitioner, hopefully one who is holistically minded. Anything else, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
I think you covered it really thoroughly and yeah, I don't really know very much about berberine. I've never used it myself. I know that it has some really amazing effects. So yeah, it's a great overview of all the research on it.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's really cool. It also stimulates autophagy and AMPK, which is really, really cool. Something we talk about a lot in this show. Okie dokie. Well, I think that is all the things. So a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. We are thinking of doing some listener interviews in the future. So if you would like to come on the show and share your story, well, A, you can email questions@ifpodcast.com. You can also go to ifpodcast.com/submit and you can submit your testimonial and submission there. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @MelanieAvalon, Vanessa's @ketogenicgirl. Oh, and the show notes, so many things. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/387. And if you are enjoying the show, the absolute best way to support it, I kid you not, is to subscribe and write a brief review in Apple podcasts. It helps so very much. Okie dokie. Well, anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?
Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun. Thanks to our listeners for the great questions and looking forward to more next week. Me too. I will talk to you then. Sounds great. Talk to you then. Bye.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
LINKS
BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com
Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
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