Welcome to Episode 392 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
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SHOW NOTES
SEED: Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!
LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!
Spermidine is essential for fasting-mediated autophagy and longevity
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Listener Q&A: Nicole - I am having a hard time getting two protein rich meals in before bed at 10.
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TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 392 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode 392 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
I'm doing great. I have my chocolate protein ice cream here because this is usually when I have my chocolate ice cream, my protein ice cream after dinner and we're recording afternoon time and I was like, I didn't have my ice cream while we were recording today. And I just discovered I've started making different flavors of it. So I made a strawberry one, Luca and I usually share the ice cream together. I made a strawberry one just putting fresh frozen strawberries in it the other day. And then I just put cocoa in it and it made it chocolate flavor. Yeah, that's what that's what I'm having right now. I go down the road.
Melanie Avalon:
rabbit hole, looking at all the different ice creams that people make. I went on a rabbit hole the other night trying to see if you could make ice cream from just fruit, like without adding anything. Like a sorbet? Yeah, basically, because I'm already eating pounds of fruit. I was like, maybe I could get one of those machines and make this into like a cool sorbet thing.
Vanessa Spina:
If you had like the Ninja creamy, which I'm using, if you just blended that up, like I do that for Luca sometimes. I just do fresh fruit, like a banana, a mango, some blueberries, raspberry, strawberries kind of thing. And I'll do, I'll just put almond milk in it and sweet. Actually for him, I usually do regular whole milk. I just blend that up and then you freeze it and it turns solid. And then you just run it on the light ice cream setting the same as with the protein ice cream. And I actually put some protein powder in there sometimes for him too, but he loves it. It, what's amazing about it is that like my protein ice cream I'm having right now is just two scoops of protein powder and unsweetened almond milk. That's the only thing in it. And that, when I do it that way, it's vanilla ice cream, but it's the texture that makes it so creamy and ice cream like. So actually if you want, I can try doing that exact combo and let you know if it turns out like ice cream in the creamy.
Melanie Avalon:
just fruit. I basically want to do just blueberries with nothing else.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I usually make my shake with strawberries, raspberries, and blueberries, so I could try it like that. Yeah, Luca and I would probably love it. So I'll let you know if it turns out like an ice cream like texture, it might need some protein powder in there too, which you could use toned protein for, which is what we put in ours. But it just, I think the protein powder makes it a little bit more the texture of ice cream, maybe because of the milk, like the fact that it's derived from milk or something. But I'll try it and I'll let you know.
Melanie Avalon:
please do. I was looking at it and I was like, hmm, this is going to take a lot of time. So, because I would have to, it looks like I needed to blend the blueberries and then freeze them for a long time and then run them through the machine. I was like, that's a lot of extra effort.
Vanessa Spina:
But I am intrigued. I've been doing it all week because our in-laws are visiting us, so I'm also making them ice cream. So when I make them ice cream, I use cream and egg yolks and honey and vanilla, all the regular stuff for ice cream. So I'm blending it first and then I have to wait until the air bubbles go down a bit and then I put it into the container and then I freeze it. So yeah, it's a couple of steps, but I'd say it's definitely worth it.
Melanie Avalon:
I've said this before, but I'm really shocked that there's not yet a machine that does this instantly. I'm really, really shocked by that. That there's not a machine where you can just put in your, and it makes ice cream. Like, what year is this? I just feel like that would be, like, you know? I know. Like, the machines at Dairy Queen and McDonald's, do they pre-freeze stuff or do they just put in the liquid and it comes out ice cream?
Vanessa Spina:
I don't know. I've been thinking lately that because I make iced coffees for Pete a lot that the best iced coffee would be if you made it and then froze it and then you blended it with something like a creamy because when you add ice to drinks, it just dilutes the flavor. If you just made like pure coffee, like he has a mocha, so it's like chocolate almond milk with espresso. If I just froze that and then made it, I want to try it. Actually, it'll probably just taste like ice cream.
Melanie Avalon:
Like a coffee ice cream. Speaking of coffee, this is a super teaser, probably won't happen for a long time. And, but, and I'm thinking of making a coffee line. Ooh. But that's, it's a ways off. We're at the like very baby stages of exploration, but I have an idea that I'm really excited about. So listeners get excited because I think I've, I'm really excited is the point about a unique aspect of coffee I would like to focus on. Love it. Also, we had some technical difficulties getting this episode going, and I realized it was my headphones. I was the problem. It was like definition, like I am the problem. But the reason was I can't believe, okay, Vanessa, when you record, do you plug your headphones into the mic or into the computer? I don't use headphones. Right.
Vanessa Spina:
Okay, ever, which is like, I don't know podcast blasphemy or something like everyone, every single person who podcasts, wears earphones and I don't I don't like it. I feel like I can't hear properly or like, I don't know. I just I've never liked it. So I've never used them. I don't know actually why people use them.
Melanie Avalon:
this might, I think they use it for, this is the point of the story actually. So I had been for seven years or seven and a half years of podcasting, plugging my headphones into the monitor, like the computer itself, which all that does is lets you it lets you hear the other person. It doesn't do anything beyond that. Besides, I'm assuming it probably helps with like feedback and things like that. I just realized because I was recording with Scott for our Mindblown podcast, which teaser everybody check out. We talked about so many fun topics there. We were recording our episode on magic secrets in the Disney parks, like how they actually make everything so magical. But it was a really fun episode. Regardless, he convinced me to plug my microphone, sorry, my headphones into the microphone. Do you know what that does? It's like a monitor. Now I understand what you were just saying. Now I understand why people wear headphones. You hear yourself in your head.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that's what I tried the first time and I didn't like it.
Melanie Avalon:
I didn't either.
Vanessa Spina:
You should try again.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, this is like a game changer. I feel like I'm going to upgrade my podcasting skills, because you can actually hear yourself. So I'm like, Oh, I need to enunciate better. I need to, whoo. It's like, it's like makes you it's really weird because you hear yourself in your head, but you hear what you're saying. So I feel like it's gonna make me a better human being, honestly.
Vanessa Spina:
That's a good idea. I should try it. I want it into your mic. I like looking.
Melanie Avalon:
Does your mic have a headphone? There's a... Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
There's a headphone jack, but I don't know what I would need so I'm moving the mic around
Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So it's just funny. It's really interesting just as a life experience to be doing something for so long and then have this epiphany moment. So I feel like I'm a brand new podcaster right now.
Vanessa Spina:
That's awesome. That's really exciting. I'll have to try it.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah let me know. Will anything else new or shall we jump into everything for today?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, excited to talk about these questions today.
Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, to start things off, I found a study I really wanted to talk about. It's called Spermidine is essential for fasting mediated autophagy and longevity. It's August 2024. So it's, whoa, actually, it's five days old as of this recording. And it is super technical. So I'm not going to go into the details of it. But the reason I was really fascinated by it and drawn to it is a few reasons. I've been intrigued by Spermidine for a while for two primary reasons. One, when I interviewed Dr. Michael Greger for his book, How Not to Age, he had a big chapter or section on Spermidine, which is a, well, it's a compound that our bodies create and also it's really high in food. And like he talked about this one study where they looked at all these different foods and tried to find the main or the one compound that was most linked to longevity and it was the Spermidine content, which is very interesting. And then on top of that, we've talked about a supplement on the show called Mimeo, which is a fasting mimicking supplement. Basically, you take it and it creates the metabolites, which are also created by the fasted state. We can put a link in the show notes to the interview we did with the founder. And if listeners are interested in that, they can also get 20% off with the code IFPodcast at MimeoHealth.com. That's M-I-M-I-O-H-E-A-L-T-H.com. But in any case, back to this study and Spermidine, oh, and the reason I bring that up is that supplement contains Spermidine as one of its four ingredients. But this study, I started reading it because I was really curious what they were going to say about Spermidine and fasting and autophagy. What I loved about it is in the beginning, they literally said what we've recently been talking about a lot in this show, which they start off by saying to date, it remains uncertain whether IF offers health benefits due to the temporary cessation of calorie intake without CR or due to a net reduction of total calorie stefacto resulting in CR. So basically, they acknowledge this ongoing debate we have about are the benefits of fasting just due to calorie restriction. And then they go in and talk about all of the health benefits of autophagy and how it's linked to longevity. And then they talk about the role they've seen in autophagy's connection to Spermidine in particular. And their research was looking at how dependent on Spermidine is autophagy and fasting. And they actually concluded that at least partly Spermidine is essentially required for the autophagy benefits from fasting, which I found really, really interesting. So their actual conclusion was our study reveals that fasting induced longevity and improved health span partially rely on Spermidine dependent, and then it's a little technical E1F5A, hypo-insuasion, and ensuing autophagy induction in multiple species. So basically, long story short, at least part of the longevity benefits from fasting are likely from the autophagy that is coming from a process that is dependent on Spermidine in multiple species. So I thought that was really, really interesting. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's so interesting. I love that you interviewed Chris at Mimeo. I also love that company. And it was so interesting talking to him about how they went through so many studies on fasting and found these three metabolites were always present when people were doing the extended fasting. And spermidine, I hadn't really heard of until Chris and Mimeo, but then I actually, once I started researching spermidine, I saw that it was actually already kind of in a step starting to be established. I think you, you were maybe telling me that there was a couple of companies at the biohacking conference that were doing like a spermidine. Was it you that was telling me that?
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I actually, oh, I forgot about that. So not this most recent biohacking conference, but the one prior, so the first one I went to, I ended up hanging out with one of the guys from Spermidine Life, I think is the brand. And prior to that, I've been hearing about Spermidine, like, you know, casually, like, I feel like people were talking about it. But then when I like hung out with him for so long, I was like, oh, this is, he was really convincing. But then it wasn't until I really dived into it a little bit more, like with Michael Greger's book, and then talking with Mimeo, that I was even more intrigued. And then reading this study, I just found it so interesting.
Vanessa Spina:
you think of it? Do you think that people should take it as a supplement?
Melanie Avalon:
I don't know. So some of the things they did in this study was they would basically look at organisms that couldn't create spermidine for whatever reason, and then if that happened, they wouldn't get the benefits, the autophagy-related benefits, and or they would restore impaired autophagy by supplementing spermidine. I think I need to know more. I'm very intrigued. I want to research more. I guess I would be curious about the levels in people's diets anyways. I would like to go look at that chart in that study that Dr. Greger references where they look at the spermidine content and all these different foods. It does make sense that in a way it could be sort of like a safeguard to assure that you're getting the proper levels of autophagy from your fasting. I don't see how it can hurt for sure. And after interviewing Chris at Mimeo, it just made even more sense about why that one ingredient in particular would be in their supplement. And what I like about it, maybe this is what really resonated with me, and we talked about this with Chris, but he was talking about how these are the metabolites that are created from fasting. So one of my big questions was, well, are we just creating the metabolites like a picture that looks like fasting without actually fasting? So are you getting the benefits? And he addressed that in the episode. But on top of that, this study makes it clear that this is an example where no, that actual ingredient, that actual compound is required for the fasting benefits. So yeah, it's definitely made me even more intrigued in spermidine. And I want to look into it more. And I kind of want to make my own spermidine the more I think about it. Yeah, you definitely should. I really might. Like, I really am thinking about it. I should look into it some more.
Vanessa Spina:
It also makes me think of Timeline, that other company I was telling you about. What did they do, again? With the Mytopyr, they created this, they discovered urolithin A. Oh, right, right, yeah. And it's, they're very similar, Mimeo and Timeline, in terms of how the process that they went through of doing, looking at the processes and things that happened during autophagy, and then what is happening in the body with autophagy, and then how can we sort of replicate that. It's very similar to the process that Mimeo went through, where they went through all these studies and then started finding these commonalities. I think it's interesting, too, to supplement. It's so hard to, it's like the biggest pain point with the longevity industry in supplement. It's so hard to actually know if anything that you take increases your longevity because you won't know until, you know, until the end of your life, and you'll never actually
Melanie Avalon:
There's no control. There's literally.
Vanessa Spina:
no control. What I found really interesting, this is one of the things I was really challenging their CMO. I interviewed their chief medical officer who's done most of their research. This was just last week on Thursday. I was like, how can people tell that what you are creating with this supplement does anything for anyone if we can't actually tell? It's like, I've got all this NAD, all this different NMN, all these things in my fridge. I'm like, I don't take a lot of them because I just don't know. I don't know if any of them are worth taking and then you have to take something for the rest of your life and you'll never know. I was really challenging him on that. He said that they are actually creating a test where people are going to be able to check their mitochondria and check the health and function of their mitochondria. They will actually be able to take, for example, with Mitopur, the year less than eight works on the mitochondria and activates mitophagy, the autophagy of mitochondria. You can actually take it and see. They're working with this new company called MiScreen. They were at the conference, actually. Yeah, so MiScreen. They're doing a version of biological age, but based on your mitochondria. There's another company as well that he mentioned to me that is working on something that people will be able to test just at home and be able to get some feedback and markers. I think it's really going to change the supplement industry when it comes to longevity because people will be able to take things, say, for three months, four months, and then test and see if it's actually doing anything for you because you can do lots of RCTs and everything. And that helps show results. There is so much psychological effect to taking these supplements. What do you think of longevity supplements?
Melanie Avalon:
I, it's really interesting because it's basically a lot of what I do is, you know, the longevity sphere. I get really intrigued when there is a lot of research that makes sense surrounding mechanisms. I'm just going, okay, so not to go on like a complete tangent, but so like let's look at the different longevity related supplements. So the OG is probably rapamycin. I think that one does seem to be probably the most likely or vetted longevity supplement. I, I'm sad that it is behind so many barriers. I understand why because it's a drug and it's mostly, you know, created for immune type conditions. Does it relate to cancer? But basically though, and the reason I find it really likely for longevity is I think it's the only compound I think that has been shown in every single species that it's been tested to extend lifespan. You were talking about how, you know, with, with a human, you can't know if you would have lived any longer or shorter. So there's no control, you know, but when we do animal studies, that's when they can control for that a little bit because they can basically make, you know, identical, you know, yeast strains or rats and put them in completely identical situations and really control it and see what the difference is. So rapamycin seems to be the one that consistently extends lifespan in all species. Kind of like when it comes to dietary interventions, calorie restriction is the one thing that seems to always extend lifespan. But then you move on to things like resveratrol and it was really seen as this great longevity supplement. And then there was a lot of scrutiny around how the studies were conducted and they say that, you know, the majority of the findings were based on this one faulty study. You know, moving beyond that, we have now the world of like NMN and NAD. There's a lot of debate around NMN, NR, NAD levels. And we know just how important NAD is and metabolic health and functioning and everything. And we know that it's depleted by things like aging and stress and sickness. Like we see that. So to me, it just makes sense that boosting NAD levels would have this effect. And I know people agree and disagree with that. I know for me personally, like I use historically, I was using NAD injections. I wasn't, I was not liking how they felt. They did not feel good to me. Just like in the moment, they made me feel quite not well. And I was like, I don't know if I want to keep, because it was really expensive too. And I was like, I don't know if I want to keep spending all this money for, to not feel well and just to, you know, think that I'm doing something good. But then I found, or actually they reached out to me, but I found any NAD patches by a company called Ion Layer and I am obsessed and I feel a difference. So I use one, I use one after, because I typically go out once a week socially and I try to really control my wine choices and things like that. Sometimes it's, sometimes I drink, you know, drinks. I are not dry from wines and, you know, more than I probably should. If I wear a patch the next day, that night and or the next day, major game difference just in how I feel. And so that to me feels like it's really doing something. And this is the Ion Layer NAD patch. And so I can really see how it just makes sense to me that supporting NAD levels long-term would really be supporting longevity. And if listeners are interested in those patches, again, I am obsessed. You can go to melanieavalon.com/ionlayer, I O N L A Y E R and use the coupon code MelanieAvalon for $100 off. But beyond that, so all of these new supplements, so Spermini, for example, like I see there's so many good studies on it and longevity and, you know, like this one that we just looked at is so fascinating. The takeaway is for humans, you are never going to know how long you would have lived with different dietary supplemental interventions. You just won't know. I mean, unless. trying to think of how you would know. I know now we have like virtual twin studies type things where you know they basically make a computer model virtual twin version of yourself and see what would happen. So technology and AI and stuff are advancing towards that but in the end you're really not going to know. So how can you know that what you're doing is actually benefiting you? And I do like all of these different biological age tests. I think they are good markers of how things are affecting you. The issue is they're all so different and they're all looking at different markers. And like for example I recently just tried two completely different companies for biological age tests. Like one was looking at DNA methylation. I think they were both looking at DNA methylation which I was excited about. What was interesting was they both provided panels of biological age and all that and I got different scores and different aging and I took them both around the same time on similar markers with the exception of I thought this was exciting. They both measured my telomeres and that was what I did the best in on both of them. So that was exciting because people often say that telomeres are one of the primary indicators of longevity status even though they do change very quickly. But basically they're kind of like the shoe caps on the end of if you think of like you're tying your shoes like the little caps at the end and they get shorter as you age. And so the length of your telomeres has been linked to longevity. So like for example on those tests I did I got really good scores on that. So and then you were mentioning Vanessa with the mitopure how they are testing looking at the actual mitochondrial function. And so and then on top of that I'm just all the issues. On top of that there's the issue of say you start taking a supplement. It's really hard to just change one thing in your life consistently. Things are changing all the time. So controlling for that is another another aspect. I think all you can do is like there's a lot of data out there. I will find and put in the show notes links for the different biological tests that I aged tests I did recently. All of that said I think what people can do is you know try if they're interested try the things that have the most data behind them and monitor your markers. And I use inside tracker ongoing. They have a biological age test but it is it's all like blood panel type stuff. But you can get I really think you can get a good consistent look at your metabolic health if you're regularly testing. I don't I mean knock on wood. I'm really hesitant to say this because I could always be wrong but I don't think it would hurt to to try these different compounds especially because they have to go through so much you know bedding and and things like that and you know safety studies. It might hurt your wallet and not be doing anything. I don't know. I'm really I'm really excited by it and passionate about it and I do agree that there's a lot of nebulousness. So that was long. Do you have thoughts?
Vanessa Spina:
No, I love everything that you shared, you know, and I think for me, the bottom line when it comes to all the research that you mentioned is, you know, you, a lot of these things we see extends lifespan by, you know, multiple factors when it comes to like yeast, these small, what are they called that Mimiya was using, was testing on. They're not used? Timeline was also testing, they're called, it's like these small. It's not small.
Melanie Avalon:
The elegance, is it?
Vanessa Spina:
C. elegans. Yeah, great. Thank you. Yeah, both Mimeo and Timeline were testing on C. elegans, which apparently make really good test subjects for longevity and lifespan testing. And then when they move on to, you know, you might see lifespan quadruple in those smaller species, and then you move on to more complex species like monkeys, and you see it helps them to extend lifespan maybe a little bit. But then I think in humans, what it really does for us, it definitely can't reverse age, like it's not possible to reverse age unless someone is using like a time machine or something, because you basically can't go back in time, like you can just stop, you can slow the aging process. And I think for humans, the best we can hope for and expect for is that we would live longer by avoiding a lot of the chronic non-infectious disease that people die from these days. So I think all these supplements can help with that. I think a lot of like basic fundamental things too, like exercise and, you know, really nutrient dense, proper diet, like those kinds of things can really help. And then there's all those other layers that you can add on. And then if you're interested in these kinds of supplements, I think that these tests are coming soon. I think they're on the horizon where if you're someone like me and you don't want to just take something and spend money on it for the rest of your life, hoping that it'll do something, you can actually test it. And that's when I think I'll become a lot more interested in all of this stuff. And there are some tests already for biological age, but I think for mitochondrial health, that will be really exciting. And then there's so much you can do for mitochondrial health already with exercise, but to see if there's something that can level you up even more to actually be able to test for it. I think that's going to be just a game changer.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, just one comment on that about reversing aging. I know we can't right now. I am really excited or intrigued about that potential. Like I wonder if that is the future. And I know that's what David Sinclair talks about a lot in his book Lifespan. Dr. Walter Longo will talk about it. Basically, it's the idea that we know, like in theory, we should be able to because in theory, we know we can have cells that are reset to the ultimate state of youth because we have embryos. So we can have inside of us a cell that is completely young. So in theory, the cells should be able to somehow revert back to that state. I feel like that's like the ultimate future of longevity. I'm really intrigued by it. I don't know if it'll ever happen and or if it'll happen. I don't know. We'll see. But basically, one of the big questions out there, like will we reach escape velocity or like how long will you need to live to reach the state where the anti-aging technology will advance so fast or exponentially or to the point where it'll always stay above where the aging cap is now, if that makes sense. I'm super curious about it, which Vanessa, have we talked about this? This is the question I ask a lot of my guests when they come on. Have I asked you this? Would you want
Vanessa Spina:
to live forever. I'm trying to think if you asked me that when I came on your podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I don't think I, I don't think I did. I typically ask it to the, like, like the longos and the Sinclair's and all of them.
Vanessa Spina:
make sense. That's their specialty. And a lot of them have probably considered it, whether or not they would. I think about it a lot. Part of me wouldn't, and part of me would. It depends what I think about. There's a piece that I get from knowing that at some point, I won't exist anymore. But there's also the thought of Luca and Damien and Pete and my family and friends and how much I love them. And the thought of maybe being able to... Something that might happen in our timeline is being able to be uploaded to some kind of technology or singularity merging with technology in some way where you mentally would be living forever, existing forever. Forever seems like a long time, but maybe just extending lifespan as much as possible. What about you?
Melanie Avalon:
It's so funny because I literally, I always thought everybody wanted to live forever. It's not even a question to me. The longevity people that I ask, like I said, the David Sinclair type people and like Saria Young and Walter Longo, they all want to live forever. But I feel like everybody else doesn't really. Most people seem to not want to. I do. Yeah. I just want to, yeah, there's so much I want to do and keep doing. And this is all assuming that health span would be equivalent to lifespan. So I think a lot of people think living forever, they think, oh, well, I'll be living old and decrepit and can't move. I would not want that. So this would be assuming that I'm living forever in a state of vitality that I would want for sure. I know what you mean, though, about something a little bit comforting, about the idea of not non-existing, at least for me.
Vanessa Spina:
forever eternity is long so yeah at some point having an end I don't know it's like is there in either or or can it be like eternity but I can go when I want to kind of thing
Melanie Avalon:
Maybe. I mean, the way I would combat the attorney being a long time is... I mean, the nice thing about there being an end is it adds a sense of urgency to doing what you want to do because time is short. If it was longer, I'd be like, oh, I have more time to do everything I want to do. And then maybe I could take like some breaks. Yeah. Deep esoteric thoughts. But I definitely, I definitely did. Like that was a moment for me because I literally thought everybody wanted to live forever. And I really, I've quickly realized that most people do not want to.
Vanessa Spina:
Ask me on a different day, you know, like a day that you're having a super blissful existence. You might be like, yeah, I want this forever. And like a bad day, you're like, yeah, I think I'm good. But I think it's hard for us to accept death like within our lifespan. It sometimes seems too short to me, especially the older I get. I'm like, man, it seems short, but it's just having such a wonderful time in life. And it also depends how you're feeling. And I think there's something I've always thought there's something about aging, especially towards the end, where it's almost like a way to make it easier to leave, you know, because if we stayed in like our prime, our whole lives up until the day we died, it would be pretty sad to suddenly just no longer exist. But when your body starts to get a bit worn out and frail, and you're not able to do all the fun things anymore, it's like, okay, maybe we had a good run.
Melanie Avalon:
You know, that, that is true. And like, like I said, it goes back to the, I think when people cure that question, they think it, they think of it in the context of our current state of aging, which obviously makes sense because that would be the practical interpretation of it. Yeah. I'm really curious to see the future of all of this. I don't think the answer is going to, I don't know. I don't think the answer is going to be in any of these compounds. Like I think these compounds just promote longevity. But if we were to actually reverse or stop aging, I don't know what that would, you know, entail, but I guess we'll see. What I don't like, what creeps me out, because you're talking about uploading your consciousness to some other, you know, thing that, that, that I'm okay with. Well, the thing I don't like is something that I think practically actually is happening right now. And it's, it's like this idea of uploading, basically creating, they're, they're doing this thing where they want to like create simulated versions of people. So basically you upload like the entire data of a person to this avatar. So then like, oh, little kids can talk to their grandfather. That's no longer with them. Like that just seems weird to me. Because it's like, I don't know that that's weird to me. It's like an AI avatar type thing.
Vanessa Spina:
I saw something like that. I opened Instagram and it was like this mother, they created this virtual version of her son who had died. It upset me so much that I was like, I had to just turn off my phone and go to bed. I was just like, okay, that was enough on the internet today for the day. Some things are just a little too unnatural. Things we probably shouldn't be messing with.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's like the you know, the phrase uncanny valley. It's the idea that when something is really, really close to I don't know if it just applies to humans, I think it's okay. So it's basically it's a hypothesized psychological and aesthetic relation between an object's degree of resemblance to a human being and the emotional response to the object. That's why I hate wax figures. Yeah, it has to do with basically like how similar something like a wax figure or a robot is to real life. But if it's like slightly off and you have this like eerie unsettling feeling, that's uncanny valley. There's literally a word. There's actually like a word for it.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I've never understood why I hate wax museums and wax figures so much. That just explained it for me, so thank you. Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
uncanny valley. So it'll be curious, it'll be interesting to see if we, you know, get past that. Like if the technology will actually, I don't know, crawl out of the valley, like actually be a perfect replica. Because if it's not, then it's a problem. But yeah, I would not want a virtual, kind of similar to the people who get like the clones of their pets. That would be weird for me too. Have you seen that before?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that's I had I had not seen it, but that sounds horrible.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I know that's been done like people have had a pet and then they it dies and they clone it So then they have the pet again
Vanessa Spina:
It's not a weird concept. Yeah, I mean, I can understand. It's hard, you know, to let go of things. And that's why I got so upset by that video of, you know, the mom with the kid that was recreated virtually. Because I was like, that's something I would probably do if I lost a kid. So like, that's so horrible. But anyway, yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, yeah. Okay, should we answer one more question? Yes. All right, so we have a question from Nicole and this was on Facebook and she says, I work from 7 .45 a .m. until 2 .30. No break and I'm constantly moving. I enjoy fasting during that time, but I'm having a hard time getting two protein-rich meals in before bed at 10. I absolutely would hate to eat before work as I feel like I'll be starving before the end of work. What is the best thing to do with this work schedule? It's a Monday through Friday schedule. Okay, do you have thoughts, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so I love the fasting from 7 45 to 2 30 because when I'm working, I also love fasting, especially when I'm moving around a lot, getting a lot done. So I love that you're enjoying fasting during that time. So I think from two 30 to 10, you have a lot of time to get two protein rich meals in if you're finding it hard in terms of maybe the size, just focus on getting 30 grams of protein at two meals. That's all you really need. If you're trying to get into meals, 30 grams, you can do in one protein shake. So just one scoop of whey protein isolate with some almond milk, ice, you know, whatever else you want to throw in there, you're going to get 30 grams of protein. And that's the minimum you need, you know, to hit that leucine threshold to initiate muscle protein synthesis. So if you, if a protein shake helps you, it takes out at least one of those meals. And then you can focus on, you know, with the other meal, you know, just eating. I'm not sure if you like to eat just animal based proteins or, you know, dairy or whatever it is, like a mixed meal with chicken breast and yogurt or cheese or whatever it is, you, however it is that you like to get your protein in, if you're having steak and then maybe some dessert that has some protein in, you should be able to hit 30 grams again with that other meal pretty easily. So I think two 30 to 10 is like a great amount of time for two meals. Like that sounds very similar to the way that I eat a lot of days getting, you know, two meals in, in my fasting, in my eating window, three meals is a lot, unless I'm doing a much longer eating window. But for an eating window of about seven and a half hours or 10 hours there, I mean, eight hours there, uh, you should, shouldn't be too hard if you just focus on, like I said, 30 grams of protein. You don't have to eat 50 grams of protein or a hundred grams of protein at each of your meals, you just want to hit at least 30 grams and do that twice. So hopefully that, that should help. And 30 grams, you can easily achieve with meals that I mentioned there, just having you know, one or two protein sources in your meal or, you know, adding in a protein shake, or I like to do my first meal of the day is usually high protein, low fat, plain yogurt with some protein powder in it and some freeze dried strawberries. I don't know why the texture combination just tastes so good. And it's a huge amount of protein. I think I get 60 or 70 grams of protein from that meal. And it still feels light enough that I can work out after that and not feel like I've had a massive meal. So lots of different options, I think. And don't worry about having to eat so much protein. I think you can probably hit it with less than what you're maybe imagining. That's my take on it. What do you think, Mani? So that's.
Melanie Avalon:
That's really interesting. So you think that's enough protein if they just had 60 grams in a day?
Vanessa Spina:
Well, if you initiate muscle protein synthesis twice, you're probably doing fine. If you're sticking to two meals a day, I would just hit at least 30 grams. You can definitely eat more than that. I'm not saying just have 60 grams for the day. I'm saying just make sure you hit a 30 gram minimum. If that's all you can have, you'll probably be fine in terms of your muscle mass, but eating more of that will definitely help if your goals are to put on more lean mass. But the minimum would be 30 grams at each of those meals. So you could do that, like I was saying, with a protein shake. But depending what your goals are, it sounds like you want to stick to two meals. I wouldn't worry about having to eat tons and tons and tons of protein beyond that because 30 grams does give you about three grams of leucine. So you're triggering muscle protein synthesis twice. I mean, you could add in a third meal of another, like if you have two regular meals in a protein shake, you could add that in. But I guess you don't, you kind of have to go by your hunger to and like what feels good to you. Okay. Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
interesting. I would suggest getting a little bit more, if you're just having two meals, I would be a little nervous with just 60 grams of protein a day. So I would probably, and for some people, I mean, I know it works for some people. I think Dr. Gabrielle Lyon recommends like 1 .2 to 1 .5 grams of protein daily per kilogram, which I'd have to do some conversions, but I think that comes up comes out to a little bit more. So I guess the way I guess what's interesting is I see I see it as two, two equations that need to be fulfilled. One would be the 30 grams at one time, and then one would be the total amount for the whole day. For me, I like a little bit more than that. But the nice thing is because I think people feel like it's a really, you know, it can be overwhelming to get enough protein. But if you think about it, if you have just a chicken breast, I think what I think a lot of the issues is pairing what you're pairing the protein with and just making the meal to say shading so it's, you know, too much to eat seemingly. But if you strip it down to the basics, like a chicken breast by itself, just, you know, like a decent sized chicken breast, you know, you're probably going to get over, you know, over 50 grams of protein in that probably in that chicken breast, right? Let me let me check.
Vanessa Spina:
So 1 .2 grams per kilo is a great place for sedentary individuals and that's the range that I also recommend based on the work of Dr. Stu Phillips at McMaster. So 1 .2 grams per kg for sedentary, 1 .6 grams per kg for more active individuals up to 2 .2 grams per kg for athletes. And 1 .2, if someone's at like 60 kilograms, that's like 72 grams of protein for the day. So if you do two meals where you're getting at least 30 grams of protein, you're pretty close to that. Like that's 60 grams. You're like eat five more grams of protein at each meal, like 35 grams around that. Like I was just saying 30 as a floor.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So because if a person's like, I hate all the conversions. So if a person's like 120 pounds, that's 54 kilograms. So that would be like, okay, 64. Okay. Yeah. So 64 grams. Yeah. And then if, so if you're, if you're going a little bit higher, like 1 .5 would be 81.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I like 1 .6. Some people say 1 .5. If someone is doing resistance training, if they're more sedentary and not doing resistance training, then 1 .2 for more sedentary adults is a recommendation from the top experts on protein. So Dr. Gabrielle Lionstein is really 30 grams of protein per meal. If you're having three or four meals in a day, don't do like 20 grams, 20 grams, 40 grams, because then you're not going to initiate muscle protein synthesis at those first two meals, and then you will at the last one. It's like do 30, 30, 30. If you're not having 30, you want to get 30 and then 30, and then add whatever else you want on top of that, but just make sure to get at least 30. That's the floor. Most people who are not lifting weights will be fine at 1 .2, which is somewhere between 60 to 70 grams for a lot of people. That's actually also the number on keto diets to help people get into fat burning. But if you are someone whose goal is to build muscle, you probably need closer to 1 .6 to 2 .2 grams per kg, and that's 2 .2 grams per kg is equivalent to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight.
Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Okay. And the nice thing is, so say you focus on the 30 grams from like the source material of the protein, if you're filling out that meal with other things, then you are, you know, adding a little bit of protein as well. But I think one of the good things that people can realize or think about is, so if you just had two, you know, decent sized chicken breasts in a day, that's, you know, pretty much fulfilling that protein need. And that's, that's not hard, like that's two, that's two chicken breasts at two different meals spread apart. I think the problem is people see it in the context of, you know, all of this other food you're eating with it. But if you, if you just start with the basics, like start, start with the protein. So this is the chicken breast and then fill out, you know, beyond that. And I'm just using chicken breasts as, you know, as an example here. But I think if you just focus on that as like the foundation and then fill out beyond that, rather than approaching it as like, what is the overall big meal? It's kind of like just a mindset perspective approach. I think people can realize it's not, it's not that unapproachable, especially in we're saying she's, she's got a pretty decent, you know, almost eight hours to get that in. And again, I know I'm, I know I'm coming from my perspective where I literally pounds and pounds and pounds of protein. So I'm like, Oh, it's easy. And I understand people come from different perspectives and it can seem more intimidating to
Vanessa Spina:
Definitely. I think that is the question I get the most when people are starting with a higher protein diet is how do I eat all the protein? Like how? So for me, things like protein shakes are a game changer because you just get a whole meal in. You get one of those. And then for people who are doing plant-based diets, who are not eating animal protein, the floor is 35 grams. So you want to shoot for 35 grams at each of your meals as the minimum. You can eat up to 100 grams of protein at your meals and you're not going to waste that protein. Your body's going to actually use it, which we now know according to my favorite study that came out in the past 12 months. So you can eat as much as you want in terms of protein. There's also a lot of research showing that the more protein you eat, the more fat burning you actually get in a lot of cases, the more lean body mass you get. So you can't really go wrong with overshooting the protein, but as long as you get a minimum of 30 grams, if you're eating animal-based proteins and 35, if you're eating plant-based proteins, then you should be totally fine in terms of preserving your lean body mass. But then again, if you want to grow it, 1 .6 is a better target and 2 .2 if you're in the gym twice a day, at least.
Melanie Avalon:
I love it. I love it. A good example just really quick, you know, they'll often have at those restaurants like, eat the pounder and pounder burger and win a shirt or eat this meal and win a shirt. It's like the difference between if you have the burger with the bun, which is like not that much more calories versus just the burger, you'll get so much more full eating the burger with the bun and it might even be like difficult compared to just the burger. Like, so that's what I mean by just like starting with the protein as the foundation and then intelligently filling out beyond that. It's doable. I promise it's doable. Awesome. All right. Any other questions or things before we go?
Vanessa Spina:
Thank you for that excellent question. I really enjoyed all the conversation today. Me?
Melanie Avalon:
me too, deep esoteric things about life. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. We are ifpodcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is a ketogenic girl. And the show notes will have a transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. And that will be at ifpodcast.com/episode392. Right. I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go.
Vanessa Spina:
I had such a wonderful time. I love all the questions as always and looking forward to our next episode. Likewise!
Melanie Avalon:
I will see you next week. Okay, see you then. Bye. Bye.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
LINKS
BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com
Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
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