Welcome to Episode 393 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
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SHOW NOTES
BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and receive your choice between a whole turkey, turkey breast or spiral ham in your first box. Plus, get $20 off your first order!
Listener Q&A: Kenna - Hashimoto's and thyroid issues with intermittent fasting. Good idea? Bad idea?
Listener Q&A: Rachael - I would love to hear Vanessa's take on breastfeeding and IF/keto
Listener Q&A: Jann B - Who do we believe [about nutrition] and what do we eat for optimal health?
Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 393 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 393 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everybody. What is new in your life, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
Everything is great. Things are going really well. How are things with you? They're good.
Melanie Avalon:
this episode actually airs a few days before Halloween. I won't talk about it too long, but I'm really excited because, are you a Wicked fan? I think you mentioned it recently. I probably mentioned it because I saw Dina Menzel. Yes, that's what it was. Well, related but unrelated, my sister and I decided last night that we're gonna be Alpha Bunclinda for Halloween. So cute.
Vanessa Spina:
I love how you plan your costumes.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I literally already started ordering the costume.
Vanessa Spina:
And what are you going to do for Halloween?
Melanie Avalon:
go out? I don't know. Normally, we've been going to like the aquarium. We'll have events. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You went to a gala or something there, right? Yeah. They have like a sips under the sea where you like drink and look at the fishes. Yeah. I'm all about the Halloween parties. Here's a random thing I wanted to share though. I was reading this random article online and I know we talk about this a lot, but I don't think I realized the history of this. Do you know where the phrase breakfast is the most important meal of the day comes from? Kellogg's maybe. Yes. It was a marketing slogan in 1917. Isn't that upsetting? I don't know how I didn't realize that it literally was a marketing slogan.
Vanessa Spina:
Kellogg's is like one of the most disturbing stories that a lot of people don't know about too. Maybe more people know about it now. It's very bizarre.
Melanie Avalon:
So this says the founder, John Harvey Kellogg, was a physician and seventh-day Adventist and he strongly believed in the connection between healthy eating and religious morality. His idea was that creating a simple bland food like cornflakes would encourage abstinence from sex and a clean, pure lifestyle. He pushed the slogan to encourage more people to eat a plain cereal breakfast to support these values.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's so weird. Like they wanted people to suppress their carnal impulses and stay away from meat, which is, you know, makes you more carnal. It's the root word carne. Oh, wow. I never realized that like carne asada. Mm hmm. And they wanted people to eat these like sad dried flakes to make them I love that they're sad. They are right? Literally standard American diet, high carb. It's such a weird story. It's such a weird story. And then, I mean, I have nothing against people who believe in, you know, that religious sector or anything. But I think the origin of it, there was like a young woman who had these like visions where she was told that we should be vegan. And that's kind of why Seventh Day Adventists are vegan. And, you know, Dr. Ted Naaman was one who was like brought up in the Seventh Day Adventist. I don't know what you call it, sect or the theology of Seventh Day Adventist, or I'm not sure how you refer to it. And, you know, he's, he's such a big, you know, protein advocate and proponent because he saw the effects that it had on his body composition. It's really interesting. But yeah, it's, it's, it's so bizarre. When I first heard about it, I was like, there's no way that could be true. Like if you really read the whole story, I interviewed this vegan influencer. He was like a fit fitness model, John Venus. And he was really big fitness. He was a really big fitness influencer who was vegan. And then he decided to basically like start eating meat again. I did this really interesting interview with him because we talked in depth about it. And I had all these like, you know, images in the video interview, showing some of the stuff like the roots of Seventh Day Adventism and veganism and all that stuff. And like, people are just like, what? Like, how is this real? Anyway, I'm not surprised that it's Kellogg's.
Melanie Avalon:
It's interesting because apply that logic, especially because with intermittent fasting, a lot of people's concerns is that breakfast is the most important meal of the day. We feel like that comes from science. I know there have been a lot of studies on breakfast eaters, but I've done a deep dive into that and I find the studies a little bit nuanced and a lot of them are funded by breakfast cereal industries. A lot of them are lifestyle because we've been told for so long that breakfast is the most important meal of the day, that there's the healthy user bias. People who are following healthy habits often tend to eat breakfast because they're following the healthy habit lifestyle that we've been prescribed and told about. Think about it about something else. Think if there was something like, I don't know, drink more water. What if you found out that that came from, which it didn't, but what if you found out that that came from like Aquafina or Dasani? You would be a little bit skeptical about it. To hear that breakfast is the most important meal of the day or if you heard that like an apple a day keeps a doctor away came from, I don't know, if there was some apple company. So to know that this idea that's been so saturated in our culture came from a cereal company, I mean that alone is an issue, but then on top of that, a cereal company that was trying to change people's morality with their cereal, it's just, I don't know, it's very disturbing and it makes it really hard to take breakfast as the most important meal of the day seriously, as a phrase.
Vanessa Spina:
You know, I've kind of reframed it in my head because there is really interesting research that the first meal that you have in the day, if it is a protein-rich breakfast, that that gives superior blood glucose control for up to 24 to 48 hours following, I think it's at least 24 hours. So I tend to think of whichever meal you break your fast is, is your break fast. And so it is quite important. I do agree with it because I think it can also set the tone for the day in terms of your blood glucose control. So having protein at that meal I think is really important, which cornflakes, flakes of corn are pretty scant in. So if people are going to have some flakes of corn, I would like for them to add protein powder into it. My mom likes cornflakes in the morning, and so she puts my protein powder in it. And my dad likes to have muesli, and he puts my protein powder in it now. So I'm really happy about that because I think, you know, just having protein at that first meal is so helpful, you know, to halt muscle protein breakdown, which is, you know, quite high throughout the night and up until you have your first meal. So I do believe it is probably the most important meal of the day. But if you have OMAD, it's also a break fast or breakfast, right? Exactly.
Melanie Avalon:
I could not agree more. I'm so glad you brought that up. It is literally break fast. But breaking it with something, you know, we just talked about this, but literally, you know, the Kellogg's are like this, those cereals were created to make people lackluster in their energy. Like literally the point was to tame down people's vitality.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's great.
Melanie Avalon:
Crazy. So it's just something to let marinate. Yeah, I have my breakfast every night at late. Very, very late. I'm also really intrigued. It's really interesting to think about, like it could have gone so many different ways. I find it really interesting that what culturally certain foods became quote breakfast foods and not other foods. Like I find it really interesting, you know, why are eggs, why are they a breakfast food and not a dinner food? And why is that is interesting. Why is chicken a lunch and dinner food and not a breakfast food? Like why?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I could have eggs at any meal of the day and actually often add them to my dinner if I'm having a burger because they're so nutrient dense and I don't always have them for breakfast. But yeah, it's like, why are they a breakfast food? There must be, I'm sure there's a reason.
Melanie Avalon:
No, I'm sure there is, or like, and you would think like, oh, maybe it's like the time required, but like pancakes, that requires a lot of time to make that. So why are pancakes breakfast and not dinner? Yeah, because I can see eggs, like eggs are easy. Like you just crack them in. So maybe they're easy for breakfast, but the logic doesn't follow.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I like to eat breakfast foods for dinner sometimes. I'll make waffles. I'll make protein waffles. I'll have eggs anytime of day, but yeah, it is really funny and interesting what made those foods. Have you had other eggs?
Melanie Avalon:
like goose eggs.
Vanessa Spina:
No, but duck eggs. I used to recommend duck eggs to people if they had issues with eggs, because there's a crazy amount of people have issues with eggs. And I didn't realize it until years ago, I was doing my meal plans and programs. And I had a few thousand people were doing my programs. And so many people would be like, do you have an egg alternative? It was a huge amount of people. Like I thought most people could tolerate eggs, except for like, like my aunt, she couldn't eat egg whites. I thought if anything, sometimes people have issues with the egg whites, so they can still have the yolks. And you can actually make plenty of egg dishes just with the yolks. But it really astounded me how many people have egg intolerances or they just can't eat eggs at all.
Melanie Avalon:
Hmm. Yeah, it's interesting. It makes sense when you think about it because the egg, it needs its own protection. So it makes sense that the immune system would be reacting to it for some people. Yeah, it's really interesting. I do like eggs. Well, anything else new or shall we jump into some questions? Yeah, ready to jump in. All right. Would you like to read the question from Kenna? It's.
Vanessa Spina:
Sure, so Kenna asks, Hashimoto's and thyroid issues with intermittent fasting. Good idea, bad idea?
Melanie Avalon:
All right, Kenna, thank you for your question. I did a deep, deep dive into this. So I know her question is about Hashimoto's specifically, and that is an autoimmune thyroid condition. But I wanted to look at the whole picture. So basically, how does fasting affect the thyroid in general? And then how might fasting affect Hashimoto's? So I tried to find every study I could find looking at fasting in the thyroid. And I'm just going to go through them, because I think it will provide a good picture of how the results, there's not one answer for how it seems to affect the thyroid. So I think you'll get a good idea if I go through a few of them. So for example, there was one study called Randomized Controlled Trial for Time-Restricted Eating in Overweight and Obese Young Adults. That was an August 2022 article. It looked at a six-hour eating window in overweight and obese young adults, and it found no significant difference in free T3. You know what, before I do this, let me give a really quick brief overview of the hormones, so this will make sense. So the main ones that I'm going to be talking about are T4 and free T4. So that is the storage form of your thyroid hormone. It gets converted in your body to T3, which is the active form. So the actual feeling you have of, like, is your thyroid working correctly? Like, is the metabolism going? That's the feeling of T3, because that's the active form. But it's dependent on T4, because that's the storage form that converts into it. TSH is what the doctors often look at to determine your thyroid status. TSH is actually not a thyroid hormone or signaling thing. It's actually related to the pituitary. And it is how the brain is feeling about thyroid levels, like, are they too low? Are they too high? And then the TSH is a signaling that tells the thyroid to make more or less hormone. So when doctors look at TSH, if it's higher, it means that your brain is perceiving that you are low in thyroid, because it's saying, we need more. So it's like sending TSH signals. If the TSH is lower, it's like the brain is saying, we have enough thyroid hormone. You know, make less. So that's what's going on there. The irony about it is when you get a standard thyroid panel, the doctor will usually just look at TSH and T4. So basically, they're looking at TSH, which is how your brain is interpreting things. It's not actually what actually might be going on. And then T4, which isn't even the active form. So there's so much room for false, just false interpretations of what's happening, because your signaling could be going, but it's not actually landing, like, you know, the thyroid's not responding appropriately. The pituitary could just be off in the TSH. I don't know how common that is. But then T4 is the storage form. So it doesn't even speak to the active thyroid hormone that you have. So with that caveat, let us look at these trials. There was that one I talked about that I just mentioned, the randomized controlled trial for time restricted eating and overweight and obese young adults. It looked at a six hour eating group. It found that the fasting, so with a six hour eating, decreased, did reduce the TSH. But there was no significant difference in free T3 or free T4. So basically, the actual thyroid hormones did not change, but the TSH went down. So the metabolism was not changing at all. But the pituitary, so the brain was like, let's maybe make a little less thyroid, even though it didn't manifest that way. They also mentioned as well, what's interesting is that low levels of TSH and thyroid hormones without an impaired thyroid gland have been related to longevity. So the takeaway here was that this possibly could have longevity boosting benefits. And there was no actual change in the metabolic rate, at least in that study. So that's one. There was one called alternate day fasting improves physiological and molecular markers of aging in healthy non obese adults. This one looked at alternate day fasting, and it found that there was no chance, this is ironic because it's literally the opposite of what the other one found. This one found the TSH did not change, but the T3 did go down a little bit. That said, there was no changes in resting energy expenditure. So that's a little bit mind blowing. Basically the thyroid, the active thyroid hormone T3 went down a little bit, but they resting metabolic rate didn't change, which seems like a paradox, but that's what they found. And they also commented as well that this might be slowing of the aging process because the reduced T3 is actually related to longevity. They also found no difference in T4, which is interesting. Yeah, and then to comment just again on the metabolism change, they said, we did not detect changes in resting energy expenditure after ADF, neither in the randomized control trial nor in the long-term fasteners. Then there was another study called effects of intermittent fasting on the circulating levels and circadian rhythms of hormones. This was 2021. This actually was a review of studies of the findings, and they found in general that fasting can cause T3 and stem studies to go down rapidly with fasting up to 55% after 24 hours, but that while it goes down, the TSH remains the same. So that's similar to one of the studies we read before and not the other. They also found that short-term, four-week and long-term more than six months ADF diets, alternative fasting diets also seem to reduce circulating T3 without changing TSH. And that was also found as well for a study in an eight-hour time-restricted eating window. So again, T3 going down, TSH not changing. And they did suggest that if people are on thyroid medication, which I want to talk about another study that talks about that, they might need to really monitor their medication because of how their TSH might change. What's interesting about that, because I actually read the study that it was referencing, and that study was called effect of Ramadan fasting on thyroid functions and hypothyroid patients taking levothyroxine, a systemic review of meta-analysis. So this is people who are doing Ramadan fasting and they're on thyroid medication, which everything, all the other studies that I was talking about were presumably people not on thyroid medication. It was just fasting. They found for these patients that there was no change in free T4, but the TSH did go up for those taking medication specifically, but it didn't go out of range. So their takeaway was that there might be something, you might need to pay a little bit more attention if you're on thyroid medication while fasting because of how it might affect the TSH and you might need to change your dosage. Although I just, I don't know, I don't know if I agree with that because I would definitely work with a doctor and get a full panel. I just find it interesting that if your TSH is changing, but your actual levels aren't changing, I don't know if I would personally adjust the medication if the levels aren't changing. This is something where I'm not a doctor. I would really suggest that people work with a knowledgeable practitioner who runs a full thyroid panel to monitor your thyroid. A full thyroid panel is going to include TSH, T4, free T4, T3, free T3, and possibly reverse T3, which is a hormone that can actually block T3. So you can have active T3, like active thyroid hormones, but if you have high reverse T3, it can actually be blocking that action. So that can explain seemingly hypothyroid symptoms with normal T3 levels, for example. So my takeaway from all of those studies looking at fasting's effects on the thyroid function was that some of the studies find that the TSH changes, but the thyroid hormones don't. Some of the studies find that the thyroid hormones change, but the TSH doesn't. And some of them find that they both go down a little bit, but multiple studies did note that TSH or the thyroid hormones going down, if there's no actual problematic change with the thyroid itself, that that is linked to longevity. So I'm going to talk about Hashimoto's, but basically my thought on that aspect is none of these studies found, none of these studies that I looked at found that fasting created a really problematic state for the thyroid. So I think it's really wise to monitor thyroid status, especially if it's something that you struggle with historically while fasting, but I definitely wouldn't be overwhelmingly concerned. That said, there's a difference between fasting while eating and nourishing diet with plenty of protein and over fasting and over restricting what you're eating and just, you know, doing too much. And I think that's a completely different scenario. So that's not what I'm speaking to. As for Hashimoto's, so there was one study called intermittent fasting, a promising dietary intervention for autoimmune diseases that is a September, 2023 study. It talked about how intermittent fasting can have beneficial effects on various autoimmune diseases. And the reason I'm talking about this, because as mentioned, Hashimoto's is an autoimmune condition. It did note however, and it gave a lot of mechanisms for why that might be. And we actually talked about this on a recent episode. So I will put a link to that episode in the show notes where we did a deep dive into intermittent fasting for autoimmune conditions, but they did note that the majority of those diseases that our studies have shown fasting is helpful for are things like diabetes and arthritis. And some of those mechanisms are improving the gut microbiome, enhancing cellular repair mechanisms through autophagy. They said that more studies are needed, that they're limited and conclusive on thyroid diseases in particular. That said, there's a lot of reasons that fasting could potentially have a, there's a lot of mechanistic reasons for how fasting could potentially have a beneficial effect on Hashimoto's just by reducing inflammation in your body in general. So I just mentioned it briefly, but the fasting can have a really beneficial effect on the gut microbiome. And there's a lot of studies showing connections between the gut microbiome and your thyroid and oxidative stress. So free radicals can cause a lot of damage in the body and are really linked to autoimmune conditions. The fasting has been shown to reduce that. Lowering inflammatory biomarkers in general. So people with autoimmune issues tend to have high levels of inflammatory biomarkers. And we have studies showing that fasting can reduce these biomarkers indicating inflammation in the body. So my thoughts on this, I think from just a autoimmune perspective for Hashimoto's, I think fasting could probably be very beneficial for that aspect. And then for the actual thyroid functioning issue, like I said, the study, the literature seems to indicate that you might see a slight drop in T3, maybe a little bit of change in your TSH. But in general, that's probably a good thing, probably linked to longevity. All of that said, definitely work with a doctor, definitely make sure you're not over restricting. That's all my thoughts. Do you have thoughts on thyroid stuff, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
That was so comprehensive and amazing. I mean, you went through all the different, you know, labs and hormones and then all the studies a few of them I had looked at as well and thought it was interesting that there were some different findings. The one that I found the most interesting was a review that talked about how T3 levels can drop quite a bit in the first 24 hours of fasting, but they tend to normalize afterwards. So sometimes there may be like a large drop initially, but it might not be something that will last. A lot of the studies also talked about how the levels usually go back to what they were right after people stop fasting, but I completely agree with you. It's definitely something to consult with your practitioner care provider about, especially because there are complications like medication levels and things that might be affected and might change. So thank you for doing that amazing summary on all of the research out there.
Melanie Avalon:
No, of course. And thank you because I totally saw that as well and I completely forgot. So I'm so glad you you saw that. That's perfect. Yeah, I did see that about the T3. It seems to rebound pretty quickly right after. So I've been haunted for quite a while by the the metabolism, body temperature, thyroid levels and longevity question. It bothers me because on the one hand, you know, there's people, you know, it kind of I guess it relates to calorie restriction as well with with longevity because, you know, we know and we talked about this actually last episode, but calorie restriction in general has been the one dietary intervention to really show a boost in longevity across lifespans. And it does seem to have a, you know, reduced body temperature, probably reduced metabolism. And so there's this whole like question of, you know, where should the metabolism actually land for the ultimate both longevity and health span as well. So it's really intriguing to me. Shall we do another question? Yes, sounds great. Okay, so this is a question for Vanessa. Rachel wants to know, she says, I would love to hear Vanessa's take on breastfeeding and if/keto and you are breastfeeding currently correct.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I'm hoping to also get to two years. I did with Luca. So I did breastfeed with Luca successfully doing intermittent fasting and keto, although my approach with keto is modified keto. So I do high protein keto, not the traditional ketogenic approach, which is, you know, restricted, moderated protein. I eat closer to one gram of pound, one gram of protein per pound of body weight, or 2 .2 grams per kilogram per day. And so for some people, this would kick them out of ketosis. I tend to get back into ketosis with the intermittent fasting. And the fact that I also do a lot of activity and movement breastfeeding probably adds to it as well, because the calorie burn, I think breastfeeding for me, I felt way hungrier than I ever did when I was pregnant. And I've heard a lot of women tell me this. Yeah, like you, it's just, it's amazing because you're like growing a baby, you think you would be ravenous, but some people actually have no appetite or even get nauseous, you know, in, in really, really challenging situations, like with hyper amesis, you know, being nauseous, like every day, all day, no matter what you eat, or if you don't eat, it's just horrible. I can't imagine how difficult that is. I really don't like being nauseous. I didn't have any nausea during either of my pregnancies. I'm so, so thankful for cause I just am such a baby when it comes to nausea. I did that, but I was also doing intermittent fasting and high protein keto during our conception period, during pregnancy during. So for me, it wasn't like a big change. So I think the question comes up a lot where people, you know, have been doing a different approach and then postpartum, they're, they're like, maybe I should, you know, start intermittent fasting/keto or get back into it. And so I would say for me, I waited at least six months to make any changes because if you make changes like intermittent fasting or keto, you might go lower in calories that could definitely affect supply. I don't think lack of carb affects supply as much as people think it does. Personally, I think it's more related to calories. And if you're eating enough calories to sustain what your body needs, plus breastfeeding, I don't think it really matters whether or not you're eating any carbs, your body makes carbs, it makes glucose with gluconeogenesis. It's more about how much energy you're taking in. And it doesn't really matter if you're getting the energy from carbs, all carbs, or no carbs or all fat or some fat or a mix of both with protein, because you can also oxidize some of that as well for fuel. So I just waited until about six months to make any changes, because that's when Damien started eating solid foods. So if anything affected my supply at that point. then I would be, it would be okay because he would be eating solid foods at that point. My supply was not affected by the changes that I made. And for me, I started adding in more carbs and eating a little bit less fat. So I started playing up with my macros a little bit and then changing up meal timing and stuff. So that's what I did in terms of changes and also doing more exercise, doing more movement, more workouts, just to feel a little bit more like my pre baby, even though pre baby self, even though like I've mentioned before, I didn't gain weight during my second pregnancy, but I just felt like my body composition was a little bit different. So I think, you know, something you can talk about, you know, with your doula or someone you, you know, work with in terms of, of how you're doing with your recovery as well. You know, how you're feeling energetically, just because the, the concern is that with intermittent fasting, keto, you might under fuel. And I think that's one of the big risks with breastfeeding or not risks, but the times in people's lives when they can under fuel, because you don't realize how many calories you need when you're breastfeeding. Like I had a friend, Caitlin grass fed girl, she told me she was waking up in the night and having to eat when she was breastfeeding. She was so ravenous. It's the, yeah, by far the hungriest I felt was when I, I started breastfeeding both times with, with Luca and with Damien. So it's really a time when you can under fuel, like I keep mentioning. So yeah, that's the, those are some of my thoughts on it. And I've done research on supply and carb content. You know, it's definitely something that people can play around with, but it does change the milk composition somewhat. But in general, I think supply is really much more tied to actual calories than, than carb or fat, if that makes sense.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, no, it totally does. I have no comments. I know nothing about this. So thank you for sharing your experience.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, thank you for the question. It's always fun to talk about this stuff.
Melanie Avalon:
So, like, when you stop breastfeeding, do your hunger levels return to normal pretty quickly or do you remember from your last time around?
Vanessa Spina:
I think it's just like, I don't feel as hungry now as I did like eight months ago, Damien's... Well, when this podcast comes out, he's going to be about 10 months, but right now he's about eight months and he... I am not as hungry as I was like when I started breastfeeding. It's always like at first, there's like a big adjustment. And I think because the body is recovering so much as well, you just... Also, you don't eat a lot during like the days leading up to the birth. There's usually other things happening. So you get like really, really hungry usually, right when it starts and your milk comes in, but it does tend to level up. After a while, like I don't feel ravenous all the time, but there may be some connection there to why I've been playing around with more meals, adding in a third meal, which sadly... So I've been playing around with oatmeal and protein. And I've been doing that as a first, first meal to do three meals a day. And I think I'm having some kind of reaction to the oatmeal because of my gluten sensitivity. So I think I've actually... I had to cut it out the last three days because it wasn't spiking my blood sugar at all. My other meals, like my yogurt meal, spikes my blood sugar more than oatmeal. And I always avoided oatmeal because I thought it would really spike my blood sugar, but it raises it about as much as coffee does, which is not that much. So I was kind of enjoying trying something different and doing... Like I put my protein powder in the oatmeal and having that in the morning with the kids, but I'm getting like a lot of muscle stiffness, which I never normally have. I was reading that there's a protein in oatmeal called like Avenin or Avenin, Avenin maybe. And it's similar to gluten. I read some blogs and they said, you can try just pure gluten-free oats because sometimes there's cross-contamination that could be causing it. So I got some gluten-free oats and some sprouted oats. And I'm taking maybe like a week or two off now to see if that's the connection. So I'm actually hoping that's what it is because I never have any muscle soreness. And yeah, I don't like having muscle pain. So I'm like, I don't think it's my workouts. I think it could just be this. And it's funny when you eat the same things all the time. Like you can tell if you try something new and your body reacts in a certain way, you can pretty much pinpoint it right away. Anyway, that's off topic.
Melanie Avalon:
No, I love it. Honestly, one of the more mind-blowing experiences at paradigm shifts is, you know, if you've been eating just, you know, whatever, like our standard American diet, and then you do clean up your diet, that it's fascinating in a way how you can tell how things affect you. I just remember thinking like, wow, I can't believe I was eating this stuff all the time. And I didn't realize, but it was just being in a state of chronic inflammation versus removing that inflammation, and then you can actually notice it from what you're reacting to. So thanks for taking one for the team with the child bearing. I'm so grateful to women like you for, you know, raising awesome kids.
Vanessa Spina:
Thanks, it's yeah, it's wonderful. It's wonderful. We love it so much.
Melanie Avalon:
Awesome, awesome. All right, shall we answer Jan's question?
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I will read it. So Jan says, I believe that food is a source of good health. What we eat truly makes a difference. However, if you watch YouTube and listen to podcasts, you will hear a dozen different opinions on what we should eat. I think we can all agree that ultra-processed foods are bad for you. But beyond that, what? If you listen to Dr. Berry and many others, you know they believe eating carnivore is the proper human diet. But if you listen to Dr. Barnard and many others, you know they believe eating whole foods plant-based is the only way you should eat. Yet many others believe keto is best. Some say intermittent fast every day. Some say don't intermittent fast, it's bad for you. Also oil, again, we can agree that seed oils are probably bad for us. What about olive oil? Some say olive oil is great for you. Some say olive oil should not be eaten. And what about protein? Who decided that women should have 30 grams of protein per meal or at least 100 grams a day? Did they just pull this number out of the air? Where did they come up with this number and how did they know? So who do we believe and what do we eat for optimal health?
Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I'm having a moment, okay, because the way you pronounced it, now I'm just wondering, Doctor, I've always said Neil Barnard, and I'm just, the reason I'm like fixating is when I interviewed him, I'm like, did I say his name wrong? How did you say it, Barnard?
Vanessa Spina:
I was just reading it. I don't know this person, so Barnard. I just said Barnard because I'm reading it.
Melanie Avalon:
I really hope it's Bernard, because that's how I introduced him. I'm like, Oh, no, I'm like, gonna go listen after this and try to find a
Vanessa Spina:
podcasts where he introduces himself and then you'll know.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Oh my goodness. Have you had that before where you have guests on and you can't find and like you can't find how to pronounce their name correctly? Or like I
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I had one, oh, Dr. John Jake Wish. He told me right before we started, he's like, you're going to say my name wrong. Write it down right now in front of you on a pad of paper. It's Jake Wish, like Jake had a wish. So I wrote it down and I was like, well, this is a lot. And then I started saying it and I was going to say Jack Wish. So I looked down and I was like, Jake Wish, thank you.
Melanie Avalon:
That sounds like something he would say.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, totally. And I'm so glad he told me because I was going to say Jake Wish.
Melanie Avalon:
That's so funny. I love that. Normally I'll ask like if they're not somebody super well known, I'll just ask them at the beginning how how to pronounce their name. But sometimes if it's somebody that I, you know, I should know then because I remember I remember I like Louise from key to gains visa nor. How do you say his last name? Villas in your okay. See, I literally I went down the rabbit hole. I was like listening to every podcast I could find and like everybody was saying it differently. I was like, I don't I can't I can't do this. And so then I think it before I was like, I am so sorry. Like I know who you are. I just I don't. How do you say your name? So okay, on that note, I love this question from Dan, I feel like it really captures the just the frustration and angst of one of the biggest issues we have today, which is so many opinions about what to eat and it can be very overwhelming and I feel you and it's honestly a big reason that I have my other show the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast is because there's so many opinions and I've been seeking for so long. I've been haunted by this idea. I'm like, I want to follow the perfect diet. Well, spoiler. There's not a perfect diet. I don't think but a big reason I have that other show is because I just wanted to interview people of all different perspectives because you know, I just want to know and there are I Jan, you pointed out so many good examples of how there are completely different opinions on things, you know, all the carnivore people versus the vegan people and intermittent fasting and the seed oils and olive oil and olive oil is a good example because I feel like it's highly touted and it's like one of the ones that kind of and it infiltrates all sides with all sides having both opinions about it, which is super confusing. So like at least with like meat versus plants. It's like, okay, one side is like all meat and one side is all plants like olive oil. It's like this wonder food and like, you know, Dr. Gundry loves it. He's big in the cuto world and a lot of vegan people love it. But then you have like the low fat vegan to like avoid the oils and you'll read like when I read Marian Nestle's book. She has a lot of books about food politics that completely blew my mind about olive oil and the industry behind it and all the like olive oil funded galas where they invite doctors and it's all funded by all of oil companies and it's just, it's very confusing. What I would say is, and you mentioned this in the beginning of your question when you said we can all agree that ultra processed foods are bad for you. Even that there are people who will not agree like the repeat people. They actually love like refined sugar. So go figure. I think if you step back and just look historically, what were we eating? You can see that there's a commonality. And you mentioned it with ultra processed foods, but just focusing on real whole foods that we can eat that we don't react to Vanessa was talking about her experience with gluten sensitivities and things like that. That's a really great start and you can focus on what is the most nutritious thing I can put in my body that's in a whole foods form and try not to stress as much about all the opinions about it. Basically, I think we can be more intuitive than we give ourselves credit for if we're eating real whole foods. So like carnivore versus vegan, some people thrive on vegan. I do think it's less than the vegan culture makes it seem like. They'll make it seem like vegans the answer for everybody all the time. And I think most people I do think I can say this pretty, pretty confidently. It seems like a lot of people, if not most people who do vegan, it's not sustainable long term. And they do need to end up bringing in some sort of animal foods with carnivore similar story. A lot of people thrive on carnivore and do it long term. I think I don't know. I don't know if it's a most thing because maybe that's a more niche group of people. But I think a lot of carnivore people do end up bringing back some sort of plants back into the diet. So the body knows what it needs nutrition wise. If we listen to it, I think we can see all of this information that we received from all these different sources as helpful. It's kind of like when I interviewed Max Lugavere and I remember I asked him what his thoughts were because I think at that time I was also interviewing Michael Greger. And he pointed out, because Max is a big proponent of the importance of animal foods for brain health. And so I asked him his thoughts on Michael Greger, who's like very, very, very vegan. And he pointed out that he thinks one of the strengths of Dr. Greger is how he really draws attention to all these really wonderful health benefits of different plants. So maybe a reframe here is rather than thinking, oh, I can't eat this, this is bad. What are these different sides saying are foods that are very good and nourishing for us? And then what from that plate of foods makes you feel good? I'm just really about listening to your body. And this is a very simple statement, but I really think it is telling if there was one magical diet, I really think we would have found it by now. And it would work for everybody. So I think these blanket statements that everybody needs to be doing carnivore all the time, or everybody needs to be eating just plants all the time. I just fact checking that that seems a little bit difficult to make as a true absolute statement because it's not working for people all the time. And you could say maybe they're not actually doing it right. And but I don't know, I just think I think if there was one diet, we would have found it by now. I think we can all agree mostly that ultra processed foods are a major problem here. And just going back to the whole foods is a really, really great place to start. Like seed oils, for example, there's, yes, there's a lot of evidence that seed oils are highly problematic and inflammatory, especially when they're refined and high heat process. And so seed oils are things like canola, cotton seed, corn, soft flour, sesame, and sunflower. There's like three C's and three S's that you can remember. But even with that, people will add like, you know, whole pressed seed oils to their salad and you know, think it's maybe it is maybe it is great for them. That's another example where I just like to go back to what is the natural form? Like, can you go up for seed oil? Can you go up and eat seed oil from nature? Actually no, you have to have to like, get all these seeds and it's a very labor intensive process to extract the oil from those seeds compared to olive oil, which is a little bit easier with just pressing the olives and getting the oil out of it. So I think just taking a step back, trying to not have too much fear surrounding things and choosing the foods that will, that feel good in your body, I think that's the way to support optimal health. Would you like to talk about that/the protein, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
Sure, yeah, and I didn't know there was controversy around olive oil. I thought we all agreed it was amazing, full of polyphenols, but just shouldn't be heated.
Melanie Avalon:
So I think the controversy that would come in would be, maybe it's more about, it's a few things, probably three things I'm thinking of. One, reading food politics by Marianne Nessel, and then also Nina Teichels talks about it as well in her book, The Big Fat Surprise. It just makes you a little bit, kind of like we were talking at the beginning of the show about breakfast is the most important meal of the day. When you realize the exuberant amount of funding and the olive oil industry, it just makes you a little bit suspicious of things. Beyond that, I think there's a lot of issues with olive oil fraud. Like it's so bad. Then you mentioned that a little bit, but like it's really bad to the point where I get just, you really, really want to bet the olive oil that you are, that you're having a lot of the olive oils on the shelf are actually cut with other oils. So they're not completely olive oil. And then there can also be the issue of things going rancid or cooking temperature creating issues. I think the third thing is, I just think there's some people will say like, pour olive oil on everything. I think Gundry is famous for... Yeah, I was thinking of him. He's like having it by the leader. He's taking shots of it. So there's that side. And then on the flip side, there's like the low fat approach. And people will say, don't add all these oils. Yeah. So I guess it's not like super controversial, but there's definitely different opinions on it. And it's just weird that it can be this magical thing that's like you just take shots of compared to some people saying minimize.
Vanessa Spina:
I wouldn't take shots of it, but I do, like if I'm going to make a salad dressing, I use olive oil. If I'm going to make something like a marinade, I usually use olive oil. I think it's amazing and yeah, has a lot of polyphenols in it, but I just make sure to get it in protected glass and make sure I'm sourcing it really well. But I think it is, like you said, I mean, we go to Greece a lot and they make it there just from the olive trees, like fresh olive, fresh pressed olive oil, and it's been consumed for so many years, for thousands of years by, especially in the Mediterranean, which has a lot of centenarians and all that. But with the protein, I love this question. So the 30 grams of protein per meal, or at least 100 grams a day, this is not out of the air. This is actually research done specifically in the lab of Dr. Don Lehman, and Dr. Don Lehman was the mentor of Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, who worked in his lab for a time. So what Dr. Don Lehman discovered is that your body switches on this process of making new muscle called muscle protein synthesis when you eat a certain amount of protein because whole proteins contain, well, several or three branched chain amino acids. One of them is leucine, and when your body detects that the level of leucine rises in your blood to about three grams, that initiates this cascade of muscle protein synthesis. So if you don't eat three grams, if you don't hit three grams, you're not going to fully initiate muscle protein synthesis. And that's why 30 grams is a recommended minimum at a meal. And if you're going to spread your protein out throughout the day, you just don't want to spread it out in a way that's like, I had 15 for breakfast, and then 25 for lunch, and then like 45 grams at dinner. You're only really triggering muscle protein synthesis with your dinner meal. And I see this all over the place, especially with sort of the older generation, the generation above mine, because people are afraid of eating meat, afraid of cholesterol, afraid of proteins effect on the kidneys, which has all been debunked. And so people tend to minimize their consumption of animal protein, especially. And so a lot of times at their meals, they're getting like 15 grams of protein, 20 grams of protein, if they're lucky, and not getting the full 30 grams. So the 30 grams is really important, whether you have one meal or three or four meals, make sure to get 30 grams minimum, especially, especially the first meal of the day, whenever you're breaking your fast, whether it's in the morning, midday, or at night, that is critically important. And if you have maybe a lunch, say if you have three meals a day, you have a lunch that has a little bit less protein in it, you might be okay because you're still triggered muscle protein synthesis. But then dinner, you really want to bookend it with the 30 grams, but ideally 30 grams minimum at every single meal. When it comes to at least 100 grams a day, that's just because, you know, if you do three meals of 30 grams each time, that's around 90 grams, like give or take up to 100, 100 is a good ballpark for a lot of women to shoot for, especially when they're getting started with eating higher protein. So it's definitely not out of thin air. It has a lot of science behind it. And it is really important for halting muscle protein breakdown, which is that antagonistic process that's happening all the time is our muscle protein breakdown rates are, you know, increasing as we get older and there's things like anabolic resistance that also, you know, start to get worse as we get older. So it's very important to at least get 30 grams of protein at your meal. And then we talked about some ranges on the last episode, but the science out of doctors to Phillips lab and the numbers I always recommend are 1 .2 grams per kilogram of body weight per day. If you're more sedentary, 1 .6 grams per kilogram. If you do some resistance training on your active and then 2 .2 grams or one gram per pound of body weight, if you're an athlete, you're hitting the gym once or twice a day. So that's what you can really take home in terms of what to eat for optimal health when it comes to protein.
Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Thank you so much. I knew you were going to have the most perfect answer for that. Thank you. I do. I, the protein question is definitely one that like I get where she's coming from with the question because I've, you know, you read all this stuff about like low protein is correlated to longevity and it's just, it's really confusing. At least there's the one thing I think that everybody agrees on with protein is that, that we do need more when we're older. That seems to be agreed upon by both camps.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and I've really changed my thinking recently. We talked about this a little bit, I think last week or the week before, but this whole concept of mTOR, it's really dysregulated mTOR that's bad for us. It's not the mTOR from eating protein or from working out that is bad for us. And so, I'm not really a fan of protein restriction. I think most people really need to lean in more towards the protein and not worry about over consuming it, but be worried about under consuming it, especially after the age of 30, especially after the age of 40.
Melanie Avalon:
I cannot agree more. I think having the mTOR on all the time from eating constantly is a lot different than having an mTOR response from eating a protein meal. It's completely different.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes. For me, it's mTOR all the time activated from too much energy being consumed. That really is what signals growth in the body and not the good growth. You want growth of your muscle cells, you don't want growth of your tissues or your fat cells, right? So I think that's what gets mixed up in some research where they misinterpret mTOR as being bad for us and so therefore we need to restrict protein. I think it's getting the message totally wrong. To me, it's mTOR in the context of excess energy, eating more energy than your body burns off every day, being in a caloric surplus, exactly what you said, eating all the time, not taking breaks. Whereas the mTOR that's being initiated from you building muscle or getting enough protein to initiate muscle protein synthesis, we don't want to avoid that at all. That's what's going to make us strong and lean and fit and able to, you know, be harder.
Melanie Avalon:
to kill. Yeah, it's so different. Similar to like insulin. Like we need insulin as well. It's just having insulin all the time. That's the issue.
Vanessa Spina:
Insulin's gotten such a bad rap and it does so many amazing things for us.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes, it's very, very important, so. Yep, but great question, Jan. Thank you so much. And to all the listeners as well. And if you have your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. Today's show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode393. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @Ifpodcast, I am @MelanieAvalon, and Vanessa is @KetogenicGirl. All righty, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?
Vanessa Spina:
I had such a blast. I love all the great questions and it was so much fun. I can't wait for the next episode.
Melanie Avalon:
Me too. I had so, so much fun.
Vanessa Spina:
I will talk to you next week.
Melanie Avalon:
Sounds great. Talk to you then. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
LINKS
BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com
Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
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