Welcome to Episode 407 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.
SHOW NOTES
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LINKS:
Featured Restaurant: Hobbit Cafe
Episode 118 with Dr. Michael Breus (Part 1)
Episode 148 with Dr. Michael Breus (Part 2)
Michael Breus's book The Power of When: Discover Your Chronotype--and the Best Time to Eat Lunch, Ask for a Raise, Have Sex, Write a Novel, Take Your Meds, and More
Studies:
Intermittent Fasting: Does It Affect Sports Performance? A Systematic Review
Intermittent fasting reduces mouse body fat while maintaining muscle mass
Is muscle and protein loss relevant in long‐term fasting in healthy men?
The Effects of Intermittent Fasting Combined with Resistance Training on Lean Body Mass
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!
Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 407 of the intermittent fasting podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo style meals, intermittent fasting and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer, songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine. If it's that time and get ready for the intermittent fasting podcast. Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 407 of the intermittent fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?
Barry Conrad
I'm doing really good. How are you doing?
Melanie Avalon
I had a really exciting meeting today for something that I think by the time this airs will be like public knowledge. So I'm going to talk about it and I'm going to make a note that I talked about it. So well, I've been having a lot of meetings about this, but we had our first meeting with like six or seven people, like all of the team involved in making this come to fruition. Did I tell you I'm going to be launching a coffee line?
Barry Conrad
Yeah, this is about that. You did mention it to me. Yeah. Thank you.
Melanie Avalon
So I think by February, at the very least, I'm sure it'll be, I'll be talking about it. So are you a coffee drinker?
Barry Conrad
I'm obsessed with coffee, like I have at least like three a day long black all the way for me in the morning before my workout in between during work, the whole thing.
Melanie Avalon
You know what's gonna be the problem with us co-hosting? Now I don't remember if we talked about things on the show or like in real life.
Barry Conrad
I know, it's like, did we mention that?
Melanie Avalon
Because I know that you sucked it up and you started drinking it in Italy, Italian coffee and didn't even like the taste, but did it anyways, like the bitterness.
Barry Conrad
Yes well i listen as i actually hated coffee is like why would anyone want to put them through this experience and then i started acquiring the taste and now. I can't get enough of it i have to kind of covered sometimes the most i've had is like maybe five a day but that's not a regular occurrence long black no sugar no milk nothing.
Melanie Avalon
So here's so many so many coffee thoughts. Do you take into account like the quality or if it's organic or mold free or anything like that or is it more about the flavor profile like how do you choose coffee.
Barry Conrad
If I'm being honest, which I will be, I don't typically research all of the four. I go, usually, whether it's recommended by friends and the flavor profile so far. But now that I know that you start, you're starting this line, I'm going to be educated and I get to make better choices when it comes to coffee.
Melanie Avalon
Well, yeah, so a little fun fact, a reason that people really like Dave Asprey's coffee lines that he's had, like Bulletproof and Danger Coffee, which I love, I love Danger Coffee. I loved Bulletproof too. He's just not at the company anymore. Coffee beans are so susceptible to mold, like so much. So moldy coffee is like a big problem. And then coffee is also often high in pesticides. So you could be drinking this coffee that's supposed to be great for your health and making you feel good, but it can have all these things in it that could be doing actually damage to your health. And so a lot of people find that when they drink organic or mold free or toxin free coffee that they have a different experience. They don't get the crashes as much, that it's like a cleaner feeling. So yeah, I do think it's, for me, it's like really important. The focus that we're going to do in my brand, which I'm trying to decide if I should, you know what, I will, because I'll at least have a landing page up for it by then. So we can, I'll put the website and people can go there to learn more. Maybe we'll probably have like an email list grab or something, but it's going to be called Glow Coffee. And so do you, do you like that name?
Barry Conrad
I do like that name actually, what inspired you to choose that name? How'd you come up with that?
Melanie Avalon
It's because I wanted something that shows how coffee should ultimately, I think, make you feel, which is like full of energy and life and vitality. So basically all the benefits of coffee. I wanted to like capture an award and I really love the concept of things that are like luminous and ethereal and light and so like glow. I just that's what I want this coffee to do is help people glow from the inside out or outside inside out. Yeah, like just be glowing. And right now we're still in the process of finding our beans and everything, but we've been testing our beans and they're going to be like free of toxins, free of mold, all the things and a lot of the health benefits of coffee. And by the way, coffee is obviously a wonderful fasting aid, black coffee. Probably honestly, one of the best fasting aids, I would maybe say the best thing to just like catalyze your fast. If you're looking for like energy and fat burning, it's so supportive of metabolism, helps you burn fat, provides energy. Like it's a really great drink for fasting. It's one of the only things you can drink that doesn't break the fast, like black coffee and tea and water essentially. A lot of the health benefits of coffee are because of its antioxidants and coffee contains something called CGA. People don't realize this, but you can actually get certain beans and roast them a certain way to increase the CGA content. So our coffee is going to be super high in CGA content. So it's basically going to be the most antioxidant rich health promoting coffee that you can drink. I'm really excited.
Barry Conrad
Wow. Well, I can't wait to try it. I want to.
Melanie Avalon
try it. Oh, you will. You will. Once I, once I get it myself.
Barry Conrad
So exciting.
Melanie Avalon
Actually, you can help me decide this. I'm trying to side right now I'm gonna get have both websites, but I'm trying to side if it should be glow coffee co.com or glow coffee co. Do you like one better? I kind of like it
Barry Conrad
like clubcoffeeco.co.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I'm going to have to pull people. They'll both work. So go to like glocoffee.co or glocoffeeco.com.
Barry Conrad
Actually, I'll take that back. I'll take that. I like the GlueCoffeeCode.com bidder.
Melanie Avalon
I feel like it just kind of like rolls off the tongue.
Barry Conrad
Roles of Your Tongue has a bit of a catch to it and I like the .com as well. It's a bit more, even though co is trusted as well, like there's nothing against co, a lot of people just probably will feel a bit more safe. Oh, it's a .com. Let's go with that.
Melanie Avalon
That's what I feel. I actually, that's what I was going with. But then we had, you know, like I said, this really big meeting today with lots of people. And they were saying that maybe it was easier to remember, remember glow coffee.co. I don't know. They were like fans of.co. But I was like, I think I like glow coffee.com.
Barry Conrad
I like it too. It sounds cool too to say, cloakofico.com
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I like glow coffee co like saying it that way sounds sounds cool. So yeah, listeners friends get excited. I'm sure we'll be doing some sort of launch special. Again, this is so much in the future, but go to glow coffee co.com. And definitely get on the email list there so that you don't miss the special and the launch and the discounts and all the things
Barry Conrad
That's so exciting. Congratulations. That's amazing.
Melanie Avalon
Thank you, knock on wood. But yeah, no, thank you. Anything else new in your life?
Barry Conrad
Yeah, by the time this airs, I'll be back in New Zealand, actually. My family live in New Zealand for listeners who don't know that yet. So I don't get to see them a whole lot. So I'm excited to spend Christmas with them, news with them. It's going to be amazing. I can't wait for that, actually.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, we were talking about it. I so value family and it's just so wonderful when you can spend the holidays with family, especially with how crazy the world is with, at least for me, like work and everything. It's nice to slow down for a second.
Barry Conrad
What about you? Are you doing anything for the holidays? Are you going away anyway? Are you staying put?
Melanie Avalon
Again, this will be quite in the past by the time this comes out, but I will have gone to Florida for Christmas. And then in the new year, January, I do have some travel planned for January. Actually, when this comes out, I might be traveling when this comes out.
Barry Conrad
To Australia.
Melanie Avalon
No, to Sundance.
Barry Conrad
Wow would be just sundance that's amazing what's the like what made you want to go who did someone invite you to check something out specifically have you been sundance i'd never been yet i really want to.
Melanie Avalon
you should come when I go for listeners to Sundance. It's the biggest festival in the US for independent films and it's probably the most in the US the most respected film festival I would say. It's kind of like when you think of like film festivals, you think of like Cannes in France and you think of like Sundance, at least for me. Those are the two I think of. Does Australia have an equivalent?
Barry Conrad
Not really, like we have the Australian Film Festival, which happens every year and that's pretty procedures pretty great, but I mean nothing beats, you know, Khan or Sundance. Is there a film or project that you really want to, you're excited to see there or did someone say let's go and you just decided to just do it? Like what, what made you want to go?
Melanie Avalon
So in usual Melanie fashion, I am just going to go for one film.
Barry Conrad
Oh, that's so funny.
Melanie Avalon
I'm gonna go, go to the film, come home. My best friend from college, like in the entire world, he directed his first feature, I'm just so proud of him. He directed, he wrote his own movie. He wrote the screenplay. He was working on it for years and years. I was like there like reading the screenplay for like the past like three or four years. And he got it picked up. He got a major casting director. He got like for the casting, like one of the main guys from the Hunger Games and he got into Sundance, which is like shocking. I mean, not shocking, not shocking for him. Like I knew it was gonna happen, but the fact that this is his first thing, like it's crazy. Yeah, so I have to go. And what's crazy is I haven't seen him since college. I mean, I have not seen him since college. We do monthly like catch up Epic long calls every month. And I haven't seen him in person and since college. So I'm so excited.
Barry Conrad
Oh, that's special. I'm stoked that you get to celebrate that with him. That that's meaningful and fun and amazing, like props to him. What's his name? Can you shout out?
Melanie Avalon
The reason I'm pausing is I'm not supposed to tell anybody up, but it should be announced in a few days. So, don't tell anybody, okay? Don't tell anyone. Shh. Don't say anything. They really should be announced really soon.
Barry Conrad
It's actually so, that's so wild though. That's amazing. Like it's not.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, it's it's literally it's I'm like mind blown by I mean, it's a mate I knew it was gonna happen, but it's just literally like all your dreams coming true type situation. Yeah, so it's Carmen and me and the movie is plain clothes. It's about in the 1990s, like true story. It's not a true story, but it's set in a true story environment, which is like in the 1990s, there'd be cops that would go into malls and set up to catch gay people. And then arrest them. And so it's about that. And it's about one of the undercover cops who's played by Tom Blythe. So I say his last name. He's the one from the Hunger Games. Yeah, I think it's Blythe. Yeah, so he is the main lead and he actually like, he's closeted. And so he actually falls in love with one of the people he's supposed to arrest one of the guys.
Barry Conrad
Wow. It's heavy. It sounds heavy. And also, I feel very, probably, universal for a lot of people out there, you know, feeling that going through. Yeah. Wow.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, so it should be around this time when this airs.
Barry Conrad
We'll get the Sundance content from Mel.
Melanie Avalon
If you want to come to a screening, Oh, that would be so great. We could go. It would be epic.
Barry Conrad
Listen, it's really funny because whenever Melanie has something exciting, she's like, so I'm doing this this weekend. Do you want to come? It's like, Melanie, she always does that.
Melanie Avalon
I want to keep inviting you until you come. On that note, before we jump in, would you like to go over the restaurant that I picked for today?
Barry Conrad
Yeah, should we go to a new restaurant? Let's go.
Melanie Avalon
listeners the purpose of this is to around here we're all about intermittent fasting and we're also all about what you eat in your eating window. So we love celebrating food and we love finding really cool restaurants in the world. So we profile a restaurant every single week and the one I picked for this week it's called the Hobbit Cafe. Good name. I know it's it was this what's crazy it was started in 1972 to honor Tolkien's Hobbit world for all the Lord of the Rings fans out there. So it's all like themed according to the Hobbit they've had a lot of celebrity guests there so on their website they said they've had like Neil Young, Jack Nicholson, Leonard Skinner a lot of other people yeah and it's like it looks like a whole like vibe so it's a cafe it's not like you know fine dining. Are you a Lord of the Rings fan Barry?
Barry Conrad
I'm a Lord of the Rings fan for sure and this food, it's almost like now I want to put it on Netflix while ordering this for real and having it delivered because this food looks really good.
Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes, the thing about Lord of the Rings, it like holds up, you know?
Barry Conrad
That actually does.
Melanie Avalon
It's from when I was in, ah, man, middle school and high school, and it still looks incredible.
Barry Conrad
Do you ever rewatch the films or have you actually, actually, wait, have you read the books and then watch the films and also do you ever rewatch the films like when you get.
Melanie Avalon
My favorite movie of all time is The Fellowship of the Ring, the first one. Of all time. And like Lord of the Rings in general is just my favorite. Yeah. So I have seen that movie, I don't even know how many times. I haven't seen it recently though. I haven't, I have not rewatched it recently. I have read all the books. I probably read, I think I read The Hobbit maybe, maybe like five times. And the Lord of the Rings, I probably read all of it twice.
Barry Conrad
Wow, that's impressive.
Melanie Avalon
But here's a little confession. I actually don't like the books that much.
Barry Conrad
Don't don't even be mad at me. I don't even read the books. I just watched the films and people get so offended like if the diehard fans I'm like, why are you watching the film without reading the books first? I'm like, is that the rule? I don't know. I'm glad that it's not. They're not as good though.
Melanie Avalon
And like Two Towers is like so long and like not a lot happens. Kind of like the Two Towers movie, which I still love, but it's like just a lot of like fighting, a lot of like walking. It's like a lot of fighting, a lot of walking.
Barry Conrad
You say these things with legs that just sound so like, you know, like dead pen, like dry look. It's just really funny.
Melanie Avalon
But I mean, things catch up with Return of the King and yeah, I love this movie.
Barry Conrad
Do you have a favourite character? Oh, do I?
Melanie Avalon
I was obsessed with Legolas, obsessed.
Barry Conrad
How did I know you were going to say that?
Melanie Avalon
Did you know that? Did you guess that? I did. The level of obsession I had with that man, Elf, Orlando, Legolas, Bloom, crazy. Crazy. Like the background of my computer, like posters, dreams, yes, I was obsessed.
Barry Conrad
Is it because he's blonde or is it because, like, what made you try to do?
Melanie Avalon
Going back to that glow coffee thing, I love elves. I love etherealness and beauty and light, and then you put that into a man who happens to be Orlando Bloom, very attractive. It's just my cup of tea, my cup of coffee.
Barry Conrad
Key glows, so you probably drink glow. Coffee co.
Melanie Avalon
He does glow. I did see him in a Q&A. I'm also a major Pives of the Caribbean fan.
Barry Conrad
They're fun. I like the products that grew in movies. They're really funny. I'm trying to end up.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. What was the Q&A? It was for Pirates, I don't know. It was just, it was Pirates Q&A. It was when I was living in LA and it was at the Pantages Theater. Good times.
Barry Conrad
I wonder what would happen if you, how do you think you'd react if you were out and about and you bumped into Orlando Bloom? Would you freak out?
Melanie Avalon
I don't get starstruck anymore for two reasons. One, living in LA is really helpful for that because there's so many celebrities everywhere. And then B, having this podcast, I get to interview all these incredible people I've looked up to for so long. I think it's made me more used to seeing somebody that I really idolize or engaging with them. Johnny Depp, though, I would probably freak out.
Barry Conrad
Thank you.
Melanie Avalon
Or
Barry Conrad
Taylor Swift. Yeah, I was going to guess Taylor Swift because you love, I mean that's because of that saying like you love T Swift. So if you met her, or you bumped into me, really.
Melanie Avalon
I think I could keep it together and play it cool, but I'd be like inside freaking out. I don't think I would have like, you know the people who like meet the celebrities and they literally like panic because they're so like in shock and they like can't function. I don't think I would have that experience. And cry. Yeah and cry. Yeah, how about you? Is there anybody that you would be like superstar struck with?
Barry Conrad
I actually don't, I don't actually think so now that I can think of, but I mean, Denzel Washington's my favorite actor of all time. So I'd probably still like more, not freak out, but I'd be pretty more like out of just like respect and that's so cool, but I probably wouldn't freak out.
Melanie Avalon
I didn't know that. I'm surprised we haven't discussed this. Denzel Washington. Awesome. Well, so back to this Hobbit menu, what would you order?
Barry Conrad
This is, I'm looking at it right now and this looks amazing. And listen, I hope that you're checking it out with us as well. Can you see all this crazy food? Okay, I have to definitely go with the dragon wings for sure, but that's not the only starter I'm having. So the dragon wings always got to do a guacamole because it's just light and easy to eat. And then I'm going to also go for the all poppers. So that's my starter.
Melanie Avalon
And the pork poppers, they're jalapenos stuffed with cream cheese, lightly fried and served with salsa.
Barry Conrad
Have I asked you, have you said before if you like spice? You've said, you talked about this before.
Melanie Avalon
I'm not. Yeah, I'm not a huge spice fan. I don't get the dopamine hit from it.
Barry Conrad
So you wouldn't share the old copies with me? You wouldn't have it if I like have some of this.
Melanie Avalon
though yeah those would wipe me out fried jalapenos and cheese not will not do well with that
Barry Conrad
Would you have one of the dragon wings?
Melanie Avalon
Are those, I'm trying to say, oh, chicken wings, I, you know.
Barry Conrad
Okay. Okay. You go. Tell us your status. This would be interesting.
Melanie Avalon
I would probably pass on the starters. I might have a little bit of guacamole. Okay. Yeah. Guacamole, I think. And then, yeah, what would you get for your main? So they, they have a big focus on burgers. They have a ton of burgers, all, all like named like Aragorn's burger or Aragorn's avocado burger, Boromir's Boudin burger. I don't know what that is. Balrog burger. There's so many burgers. Fire's a Mount Doom burger.
Barry Conrad
So good, Melanie. I haven't actually, I don't know if I've told you this, but burgers are actually one of my favorite. It's not even a guilty plate. It's just a pleasure. Like, and I, and I always get a beef and a chicken. That's like a two burger minimum. My friends all know that it's like burial, get two burgers. So I'm going to have to go with the bell rock because it's a double meat patty, which is my jam. And then is there a chicken one?
Melanie Avalon
Trying to see they have a whole sandwich section. This is a massive menu friends It like keeps going. I keep thinking I'm at the end They do have a chicken breast. Where's that Rivendell chicken? You got to go down to like the south of the border
Barry Conrad
Where's the sandwiches this is a mess this is a lot of
Melanie Avalon
food. It just like keeps going. Second breakfast. Oh my goodness.
Barry Conrad
Okay, I'm going to do the for something different because I can't find a chicken burger. I'm going to go with a smorg's delight, which is a smoked turkey topped with avocado, tomato and melted Jack cheese. That's my main dish is dishes.
Melanie Avalon
choice. I think I would get, in the spirit of all the burgers they have, I would get the Eowyn's elk burger, which is elk, ghost pepper, cheddar, fig jam, caramelized onions, and arugula. I would edit that and just get the elk burger and no bun.
Barry Conrad
I was gonna ask that next, like, are you gonna have the bun?
Melanie Avalon
No, so I'd have a rare out aowans elk burger and I might add on if we're doing if we're doing well Yeah, we're doing like dinner then I would probably also get So gotta have two entrees might get some rippendell chicken or some rippendell salmon. I gotta have something from rippendell It's got to represent my favorite town
Barry Conrad
And then can I have like a morsel of your chicken? Yes, of course.
Melanie Avalon
Of course you can.
Barry Conrad
And you can have a morsel of the bun of my burger? Nope. I knew the answer for that. Okay. Where's the dessert? I'm trying to scroll down to find it. There's like.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, smoothies and desserts are at the end.
Barry Conrad
They do. Oh, wow. This looks amazing.
Melanie Avalon
There's so many.
Barry Conrad
I know what I'm getting what Nutella pancakes
Melanie Avalon
Oh, Nutella Pancakes, ah, smart choice.
Barry Conrad
Which is, do you say Natalo and Nutella?
Melanie Avalon
Nutella and I feel like there or is it Nutella maybe I'm not a Nutella person
Barry Conrad
All that tracks, because you prefer...
Melanie Avalon
the hazelnut.
Barry Conrad
Yeah, that's true.
Melanie Avalon
Like, you know, people like people love it. I had friends growing up who like were obsessed and I did not love it. Oh, my gosh, they have a legolas. What is it?
Barry Conrad
Oh, it's a smoothie. Can I take that back because I didn't see the bottom beneath that? I'll give the chocolate chip pancake because that's more true to me. And then I'll also add two scoops of vanilla ice cream to that.
Melanie Avalon
Nice. Okay, that's what I do. So for my meal, I would get the elk burger with the Rivendell chicken. And then for dessert, I want the Rivendell salmon.
Barry Conrad
Savory dessert. Yep. That's so good.
Melanie Avalon
So friends, check out, we'll have to see if they have an Instagram. We'll put a link to all of that in the show notes. But Hobbit Cafe in Houston, their menu is so big.
Barry Conrad
I would actually, I was thinking this. I would actually, I want to go there. When I go to Houston next, I need to hit these guys up because I.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, you should. Let me know. Take pictures.
Barry Conrad
Yeah, I'll do like a whole thing like a tasting situation and have all you
Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Shall we jump into some questions for today?
Barry Conrad
Let's jump in.
Melanie Avalon
All right, would you like to read the first question? This is the first time I think I'd be reading a listener question, right?
Barry Conrad
Yeah, I think so too, which is really exciting.
Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, moment.
Barry Conrad
Here we go. Take it in. OK, so Christine asks, are there any long term studies on IF and muscle retention?
Melanie Avalon
All right, Christine, thank you so much for your question. So I actually wanted to start with this question because I wanted to do some research on it, provide some sources and then also want to talk to Barry about it. So it's perfect. Here's the thing, I could not find any super long term studies on this. That said, I found a lot of studies on like decent size, like one or two months of fasting and its effect on muscle and just what happens, like what it does. And I think presumably that what we can learn from that, in theory, should continue on. And I also found a study that looked at 10 days of just straight fasting, which to me seems much more extreme for its ability to affect muscle than daily fasting. And so we can kind of take away what happens to muscle during that. Well, first of all, there are some there's rodent studies. For example, there was a 2023 mouse study. It was called intermittent fasting reduces mouse body fat while maintaining muscle mass by regulating protein synthesis and autophagy. So basically, they wanted to look at intermittent fasting and how it affects skeletal muscle protein metabolism. And they found they found that the fasting group had better insulin that they had lower body fat, lower body and fat weights, and that they maintained the skeletal muscle mass the same amount as the mouse group that was eating ad libitum. They found that a reason for this was because of the role of autophagy, which is something we've talked about a lot during this show, which is where the body actually goes down and breaks down old and dysfunctional proteins in the body and reuses them. So basically, while you're fasting, you may not be taking in protein, but the body actually can go and, for lack of a better word, create new protein from old and broken protein in your body, which is super cool. So their conclusion was our findings suggest that adaptation to IF regulates protein synthesis and breakdown, leading to the maintenance of skeletal muscle mass while reducing body fat, which is another cool thing because they often say, Oh, you can't lose fat and, you know, maintain muscle at the same time, you know, this shows something different. Again, that was in a mouse though. So let's move to humans. We have, I'm trying to say where to go first. So there was a review, and I love reviews because it looks at a lot of studies and helps to find, you know, what is the data at large saying. So it was called intermittent fasting. Does it affect sports performance? A systematic review. This was published in January of 2024. It looked at 25 studies. And after looking at those studies, it concluded that intermittent fasting could be considered an adequate nutritional strategy to reduce body fat to an adequate number for the athlete and maintain lean mass or muscle mass. So basically they looked at a lot of athletic people practicing fasting, and they found that fasting helped them reduce fat and that it maintained muscle mass. Super important. And then, so this is the one that, let's see, this is the one that looked at a 10-day fast.
Melanie Avalon
It was called, is muscle and protein loss relevant in long-term fasting in healthy men, a prospective trial on physiological adaptations? So this study actually looked at a 10-day fast coupled with physical activity in men, in 16 men. And they found that, let's see, they found that the men decreased their body weight by 7% and that their metabolism went down by 12% and that their fat, okay, so their fat mass and their lean soft tissue accounted for about 40% and 60% of the weight loss. So like 40% of that was from fat, 60% of their weight loss was from muscle. All that said, the muscle loss was explained by losing water. There was a lot of that. So 44% was water extracellular, so like basically like bloat inflammation like under your skin. And then 14% of that was muscle and liver glycogen associated with water. And then the remaining 42% of that was actually tissue. So only 42% of the 60% was actual muscle loss. All of that said, as far as like what they actually did during this, they were walking. So they increased their walking by 60% while fasting. They did strength training. And the ultimate conclusion was that a 10-day fast appears safe in healthy humans. Protein loss occurs in the early fast but decreases as ketogenesis increases. Fasting combined with physical activity does not negatively impact muscle function. And then they said future studies will need to confirm these first findings. So the reason I'm talking about this one is, like I said before, 10 days straight. I think that's where you're really going to see, like if you're going to be like losing muscle, that's where you're going to see it. And I find it interesting that they did lose muscle, but they also lost fat. And it didn't affect their muscle function. And the longer they fasted, the less muscle they lost going into the fast, which kind of indicates that there must be protective mechanisms that start up as you get like longer and longer into the fast. I think that's so fascinating. One more thing kind of going out of order, but this is the one I really like. So this is called the effects of intermittent fasting combined with resistance training on lean body mass, a systematic review of human studies. And so this also looks at intermittent fasting combined with training. And I'll circle back to this, but I think a huge key for maintaining muscle while fasting, definitely from what we're seeing in this literature, is doing muscle training and doing resistance training. So giving your muscle a stimulus and a motivation to stay there and not waste away. And then also eating a lot of protein in your eating window to support that. So this 2020 review, it looked at eight studies, and they found that for these people who were fasting and doing resistance training, that lean body mass was generally maintained. They did find in one study that they actually increased their lean body mass, and they also lost body fat at the same time. So they maintain their muscle, but they lost fat. And so they said that results suggest that IF paired with resistance training generally maintains lean body mass and can also promote fat loss.
Melanie Avalon
Future research should examine longer term effects of various forms of IF combined with resistance training compared to traditional forms of energy restriction. And so I mean, on the one hand, they say at the end that we need more studies on longer term, which I realize is Christine's question. But just my reading of literature and data, it really seems to show to me that things happen during fasting that actively you know, maintain and protect muscle. So I couldn't find any super long term ones. But those are my thoughts on the mechanisms at play, assuming you're giving them a stimulus, you know, training those muscles and having enough protein. So that was a lot. What are your thoughts?
Barry Conrad
One of the biggest things is, as we know, intermittent fasting does promote autophagy, which helps that repair and the regeneration of cells. As Mel was saying, the human growth hormone, which is such a magical thing that happens during the fasted state. It was interesting, the study that you talked about, the deeper these guys went into the fast that the muscle loss stopped, which is really fascinating, and also telling that it's protective. I will say that, again, taking in enough protein is really important as well. We know that the FDA currently suggests a daily intake of 0.8 grams per kilogram body weight. For someone like myself, for example, I will often have about 160 grams of protein a day, which is more than double of the FDA. I think to build muscle, it's important to not just have that base level intake, but to even double or even by 1.5 to take in to build muscle and to stimulate muscle growth. Pairing that with resistance training with intermittent fasting, I think, is a recipe for success in terms of not just retaining muscle, but building muscle as well. I think I mentioned this to Melanie before. When I broke my ankle, I was on bed rest for maybe five or six weeks without being in the gym, and I was in bed rest for a large amount of time. I did not significantly lose muscle. The only thing that's changed was the intermittent fasting. I kept my protocol up, and I kept on taking in that protein. It's great.
Melanie Avalon
That's so telling about the bed rest and you're, you know, not losing muscle. Yeah, I think, I just really think the importance here, like we keep harping on, but eating enough protein in the eating window, doing that resistance training, because when you're doing that training, that's telling the muscle, even though it's breaking down, like it's catabolic and breaking down muscle, you're then building it back up and it's signaling to the body to keep that muscle around. It's like needs to keep it. So I think that that communication is so, so important.
Barry Conrad
Because Melanie, what do you think when people say, if I fast, I'm going to lose my muscle? Do you think that with intermittent fasting, even the body just in general, the preferential thing to burn first is not going to be muscle when you go with that food, right?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that's what Jason Fung talks about a lot. He's like he talks about how like evolutionarily it doesn't make sense. Muscle is so important. So it doesn't make sense the body would want to burn muscle first compared to though an example. So here's a good example. So if you're in the facet state and you're burning fuel, and we just looked at all those studies that show that you can burn fat but maintain muscle, that makes sense because your body is since a starvation, it needs energy. So it makes the most sense to burn fat and maintain muscle, especially if you're using that muscle and you're telling your body you want to keep it. Compare this to something like chronic cardio and like marathon runners, they actually benefit from losing muscle because their body needs to be lighter to be doing that endurance sport. So that's an example of like communicating a different message to your body where the body needs fuel, what is it going to choose. So I think like being in the facet state during resistance training, you're signaling to your body to keep the muscle compared to like trying to lose weight by running it off, you might actually be telling your body to burn muscle.
Barry Conrad
Right and even conversely interestingly when people just count calories to lose weight what happens to the muscle versus when the intermittent fasting and taking enough protein.
Melanie Avalon
I think because there seems to be something really magical about this signaling with the facet state that's really protective. And so I feel much more comfortable actually maintaining muscle with a fasting approach compared to like a calorie restriction all throughout the day approach.
Barry Conrad
Yeah, same. Definitely. It's such a flex as well to be able to say to guys that are intermittent fast because they're like, really? They genuinely shocked that I'm not eating all day.
Melanie Avalon
They're shocked that you are not eating all day.
Barry Conrad
Yeah, they're not that I'm eating all day like still like the general consensus is like, particularly weightlifters or whatnot. They're just like, what? So do you how do you keep your muscle? How do you build muscle? So I just love that reaction.
Melanie Avalon
I love knowing people like you because I can be like, well, see, because although I think I do, I don't know. I'm toned. I have muscle. People comment. It's funny. When I go on my Costco hauls, which I was going to right before this, people are like shocked at everything I carry at the store. You're pretty strong? I think so. Literally today, like right before this, I was at Costco, she was like, you're like really strong. I was like, it's my workout. And that's something I really like, is like turning life into a workout, like carrying. It is a lot. I want to show you everything I carry at Costco is a lot of stuff.
Barry Conrad
You also said like you wear like weights and stuff like you wear body weights and stuff.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, like I wear weights around the apartment. I never use a cart and I carry a ton. Like we're talking, I mean, it's, I should actually weigh how much it is the two bags I carry. It's a lot. And then I do M sculpt still. I love M sculpt.
Barry Conrad
The scallops man, they they're heavy and the cucumbers, you know, and what Melanie saying as well is as funny as it is, like, that's still stimulus, like, people can often get the misconception or the conception that stimulus or muscle building, you need to be in a gym lifting a dumbbell, that's not necessarily the case, it's any resistance, that's still stimulating the muscle, right, Melanie?
Melanie Avalon
pick up heavy things. And I'm actually, I'm really excited. I'm prepping right now. The episode will have already aired when this comes out. I will have aired an episode with Mark Sisson. I'm actually right now in my current present time finishing up that book to prep to interview him. But his newest book is called Born to Walk. It's incredible. He did it with Brad Kearns and it's all about the myth of chronic cardio and marathon training and endurance running and how what we're naturally made to do is like move, you know, move naturally walk, lift heavy things, do more ancestral movement in that way. And he's a big fan of like non-structured play and exercise. I mean, if you love the gym and like more power to you, but you can get a lot of support of the body and you know, muscle support even just like living your life. If you do it on purpose, like if you purposely try to make your life heavy physically, not emotionally.
Barry Conrad
That's a great thought. Even just that, make your life heavy, physically and unemotionally. I love that.
Melanie Avalon
Wait, we should like, we should do something with that.
Barry Conrad
Yeah, that's really good. That's like a slogan. That's a good slogan. Write it down. I'm going to write it down right now actually. Make your life heavy physically. That's like a tagline for like a book. Book title then underneath. Make your life. Yeah, that's great. That's awesome.
Melanie Avalon
I love that. OK, shall we go on to our next question?
Barry Conrad
I feel like we should.
Melanie Avalon
So our next question comes from Jennifer and she says is there anything you might recommend for a person like me who faces a general feeling of tiredness in the morning? I work in a typical office environment 8 to 5 Monday through Thursday. I also pick up a few shifts at a local coffee shop on the weekends to keep me young and active. I'm doing roughly 16 8 clean fasting for the past 13 months. I drink water, 1 to 2 cups of black coffee during the early and mid morning and occasional cups of hot water. I notice that once noon rolls around I start to feel like myself and the energy level increases. What might you suggest I tweak or adjust? And I will say before we answer this, I so am jealous of Barry's circadian rhythm.
Barry Conrad
Okay, why? Tell us again, why?
Melanie Avalon
Mr. Morning Person, Mr. Wake up, bright eyed, ready to go, hit the day.
Barry Conrad
I love it. It's just like, I feel like I can dive straight into anything that I need to do with efficiency, focus, strength, determination, no like feeling sloppy or slouchy at all.
Melanie Avalon
So, and you've always, because we're trying to help out Jennifer here, like have you always felt that way? Like, because Jennifer wants what you have, like I do too.
Barry Conrad
I feel like it's becoming more and more of a morning, quote unquote, morning person. I'm traveling at the moment as well, and wherever I am, I just wake up at 6.30. I don't know what, I'll look at my phone, and 6.30 seems to be the time that my body's starting to wake up now normally. And I've decided, just go with it, don't think it's too early, just have a sleep in. Granted, if I am tired, I'll have a lay-in, but 6.30 seems to be that little magic number for me. Jump out of bed, for me it's straight to the gym, straight into the day.
Melanie Avalon
So here's my question, I guess, what would make, cause then we can like, we can reverse engineer. What would make you not feel that way? What would make you feel tired in the morning?
Barry Conrad
Having too much of a late night than I before could be one thing. Another thing could be my food choices the day before, which a lot of people might not think about that could also make me feel sluggish and stowshy and lack energy, not having enough water throughout the day. Because for example, I've seen here, Jennifer, that you have your one to two cups of black coffee, all about the black coffee. And also, I would also point out that coffee is deodorating. So you want to make sure that when you are drinking other water, stay hydrated. So a hack could even be adding electrolytes to your water. That could help when you do open your window to eat, making sure that you're taking in nutrient-stance foods and knowing what your body's good at processing because you might not process certain macronutrient as efficiently as others. So maybe some will make you feel more sluggish or maybe looking at what you're eating could be a tweak, even increasing your fasting window could be a tweak or a hack because I know for me, and we've talked about this before, Melanie and I, that you just get that energy and that focus. And I find that for me, that kicks in like around the 18-hour mark for me. So not 16. So that's another thing that you could possibly look at. What do you think, Melanie?
Melanie Avalon
Okay, you hit on so many good things and so many of my own thoughts as well. We don't know when she's actually eating. So she works from eight to five. We know she's doing 16, eight, but we don't know. Well, I guess she's drinking coffee in the morning, early mid-morning, around noon. She tries to feel like herself. So I'm wondering when she's actually eating. So I would have a lot of different questions. One would be, well, okay, well, first of all, the very first thing I think, and it's something that you touched on, Barry, sleep, like looking at your sleep. Can you optimize your sleep? Out of all the things like diet, fitness, food, sleep, I just think sleep is so, so important. And if you're feeling tired, I would definitely start there. There's so many things you can do to help optimize your sleep, having a sleep sanctuary of sorts. So having a really specific wind down routine where you're not exposing yourself to blue light. So you're wearing blue light blocking glasses, using red light in your apartment. It doesn't necessarily have to be like red light devices, but just not lighting your apartment with like bright light in the evening is really important. On YouTube, there's a lot of these different like Zen music frequencies that can really help you wind down. Like I use one called like love frequency, but it's like a certain hurts that is very calming. And if you're into like sound therapy, it relates to that. That's what I'm always playing in the background of my phone. What I was asking you if you could hear the music. No, I couldn't hear it. I'm gonna blast it next time. Blast it next time. I'll put a link in the show notes to my favorite one that I have. That's like a game changer for me. And then having your sleep environment, keeping it cool is really important. I use a cooling mattress. I turn down the air. Sorry. I'm laughing because I turned down the air really cold and my AC like a few days ago, I think it ran out of Freon, but it was like really cold here. It was like in the twenties, which I don't know the equivalent for Celsius.
Barry Conrad
God, that's... no, that's freezing.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it was like really cold. But my air conditioner was broken because that was what it was outside, but inside it's not that cold and I needed it to be cold and so it broke. And so the maintenance guy called and he was like, are you sure? He was like, is it the heater broken? I was like, no, it's the AC. And he was like, are you sure it's not the heater? I was like, no, it's the AC. And he was so confused.
Barry Conrad
Yeah, because it's cold outside.
Melanie Avalon
And he was like, why? And I was like, I was like, it's broken.
Barry Conrad
Solaris, he's like confused
Melanie Avalon
I know he was really confused. So yeah, keeping your sleep environment cold is really important. And what else using like, you know, blackout curtains, earplugs, a mask, all the things. So looking at your sleep and then supplement wise, I really benefit from CBD. I really love Dr. Kirk Parsley sleep remedy. That works really well. I will use melatonin at night. Oh, my Avalon X magnesium three and eight. Amazing. It's a magnesium that crosses the blood brain barrier, helps support mood and rest and relaxation. You can get that at Avalon X dot us and the coupon code Melanie Avalon will get you 10% off. Okay, so that's sleep. And then moving on beyond that, and a lot of this is going to overlap with what Barry said, I would ask yourself, Jennifer, when did this start? Because you say that you start to feel like yourself around noon. Have you always been that way? And it's kind of like what I was asking Barry, like, have you have you always been the type that you don't really start to, you know, perk up until noon, which is me? Hello. Or did you used to like wake up early and feel energetic? And now this is a new change. And was that did that change with the fasting? Because it could be a lot of things if you haven't always been if you've always been that way, you probably have a circadian rhythm that's like me check out the work of Dr. Michael Bruce, who Okay, he's the sleep doctor. He wrote the four chronotypes book about the different sleep chronotypes. And I got to meet I've had him on the show twice. I got to meet him in person and hang out with him recently. Really? Yeah, I went to the Unimonia conference and West Palm and I met him in person. He was so nice. And then he actually he was able to take me like as his plus one to like this networking party for the conference. So that was great. So I got to like meet all these people. In any case, he's amazing. His book is really great for helping to understand the different sleep chronotypes. And the point of that is that he understands that some people just are not morning people, which I really appreciate because I am not one. But that said, if you were not really experiencing this before, and it's a new thing, I would definitely look more at everything. For the fasting, like Barry was saying, either increasing the fasting or like changing around when you're eating window is that might play a role. I definitely agree with what Barry said about the food choices. Like do not underestimate the impact of food on, you know, how you feel the next day, I would really look at hormones and you could work with a practitioner and get a Dutch test. And they'll be able to look at your, your cortisol levels throughout the day. And you can kind of see what's going on there. Oh, and then also coffee to bring everything full circle with how we started this episode. So it's ironic because like I said, I'm really passionate about coffee, I think has a lot of benefits. I actually don't drink a ton of coffee. So I've gone through periods where like in college, I would drink like so much coffee.
Melanie Avalon
I don't know how I survived that. And then after college, I drank coffee. Now I just have like a little bit every morning. Like I found like the perfect dose and it's just like a little bit every morning. And it kind of like gives me a, it's like a hormetic stressor to me. And, but I don't have a ton of coffee. And I guess what I would be curious about is there can be a substantial amount of difference of caffeine and like between one and two cups of coffee. So like, what is your relationship to that caffeine and the coffee? And is it like, are you needing it to wake up? And then, although ironically, you're not really waking up until around noon, this is interesting. So Dr. Michael Bruce believes, and I've read this from other people as well, that you actually shouldn't have the coffee right in the morning because you naturally in theory should have a cortisol spike then anyways. So you actually would have it a little bit later when you have like a lull, although that's reverse of what Jennifer's experiencing. But that's more just like a little fun fact about coffee, coffee timing. Interesting. Yeah. Cause you said you have it Barry, right? When you wake up.
Barry Conrad
Like, not right, right, but I'll usually have it maybe around seven-ish, like I'll head to a cafe and grab a coffee or two right before the gym. That's like my pre-workout.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah. So he's a well that makes sense because you would for you want to do it before working out. I guess if you weren't working out right away, it would be interesting to experiment. But if you're working out right away, you definitely want to take it before. But yeah, so Jennifer, you could also look at your stress levels surrounding your job. And maybe how is that coming into play? Yeah, I'm just trying to like like the one I mean, I would really, really look at the sleep food choices. Like are you eating foods inflammatory for your body? Because if you are, then you might especially, especially if you have like a later eating window, you might be eating foods that are actually having a, like a delayed response inflammatory effect where you're like kind of recovering from that in the morning. So I would look at the foods that you're eating, your sleep choices, your relationship with coffee, and maybe work with a doctor who can give you a more enlightened view of your hormones.
Barry Conrad
I think as well I think the eating the eating window could also be key you mentioned that before we don't actually know when she doesn't say when she's actually eating.
Melanie Avalon
So she's probably eating for eight hours. Sounds like she drinks coffee mid-morning, noon, she starts to feel like herself. Yeah, I don't know. I'm guessing, yeah, I don't know. I would maybe start with sleep and start there, like the window.
Barry Conrad
because you're right. There's so much that we can say. And also, one of the most basic, necessary, important things is just sleep. It's an electro. You feel much better the next morning. If we don't get enough sleep a couple nights in a row, it has a domino effect and you get into sleep debt. It's really important for recovery, for keeping your circadian rhythm well, making sure that you digest food properly. Everything just has an effect on everything. So that's different grade of our smell.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I think it's literally so important. And it's interesting or funny to me because people wear lack of sleep, like a badge of honor. They'll be like, Oh, you know, I, you know, I only got four hours of sleep. And it's like, you're kind of proud of it, because it shows that you're like working and doing all the things. And I'm like, I'm like, I am not proud of that. I want all the sleep. And I protect my sleep, like nothing else. That is the reason that, like we talked about last week, if I'm out late at the Biohack Yourself premiere in Vegas, I will be going back after that. Even though what's crazy to me is my circadian rhythm is so late that it will be very late that I'm up, but it's on my timing, you know, it's like on my circadian rhythm, I don't stay up, I try not to stay up past my natural rhythm.
Barry Conrad
Here's a question about sleep. If you, for example, you had to do something that fell outside of your sleeping time, for example, and then you got the same number of hours of sleep, but at a different time, would you feel different?
Melanie Avalon
So I love this question and I have an answer that makes me so happy because I had heard, maybe there's conflicting research on this as I'm saying it, I'm like listening to myself. They say, they say that going to sleep, okay, there is research showing that going to sleep earlier and waking up earlier is better sleep for you. Matt Walker, I think, has done research on that and I'm using that as an example because you're saying if I were to change my sleeping hours at a different time, basically.
Barry Conrad
window, I guess.
Melanie Avalon
I've got to find like the original study about this. Somebody was talking about this and there was research showing that so for people who are like night owls versus like early birds. So if an early bird person goes to bed later and wakes up later but it's the same amount of sleep as their normal sleep they will actually be more tired. On the flip side a late night owl person like me if I go to bed earlier and wake up earlier same hours of sleep I'll be more tired which I love. I find that so validating for my experience because to answer your question personally I do find that if I because there are occasions where I have to get up like super you know well early for me I can get the same amount of sleep and I will be tired I'll be more tired the next day even if it's the same amount of sleep.
Barry Conrad
It's just interesting how that works. How about you? Yeah, I agree. As soon as you said that about the later sleeping later, waking up later, I a hundred percent agree with that. I don't know why it just happens. I feel sluggish and lethargic.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and that's the way I would feel about the reverse. So I'm all about finding what works for you personally.
Barry Conrad
Almost like how is that set how is that even determined within each person that this this is your sort of window of sleep this is when you should go to sleep and you'll feel amazing waking up and if you don't even if you get the same number of hours of sleep you'll feel bad it's just interesting.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so definitely you would love Dr. Bruce's work. One of his books is The Power of Wind. This is the chronotype guy. It's genetic. The thought of it, like why that evolved that way? The theory is that historically when we were like hunter-gatherers, somebody had to be awake all the time to protect the group. Everybody couldn't be sleeping at the same time because then we were in the wilderness, enemies, animals. So people developed different circadian rhythms so that somebody could always be awake, keeping watch. So the night owls, like me, we were the night guards. We were keeping you guys. Actually, I'm actually a dolphin.
Barry Conrad
The track is you so strong you said you're strong and your cost current stuff so that.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, although actually I'm not so that's actually the wolf his wolf chronotype. I'm actually not that I'm the dolphin the dolphin has just like a really messed up circadian rhythm. We're basically like We're basically I think he like it's one who like found this in the literature and then like kind of popularized it so so most people's like cortisol rhythms, it should spike in the morning and then like Goes down a little bit until noon and then it's like up a little bit and then it's like going down until the evening The dolphin type like me we get this random cortisol spike in the evening like regardless of context. So Doesn't matter like how much I slept or I always come nighttime. I'm like I'm ready
Barry Conrad
Maybe that's why you always like you love your your one night out like you know how you go to events and shows and stuff like you love
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So hopefully, Jennifer, that was helpful. Listeners, please submit questions, especially now that I feel like listeners are probably getting to know you, Barry. Submit questions for both of us, but questions, you know, with Barry on board, we would love to have some more around in that context, especially since he brings a lot of experience that we haven't really had on this show before, which is A, a man.
Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's a very important factor, yeah.
Melanie Avalon
Be like your routine and your work ethic at the gym and all of that stuff. Any topics in particular you love talking about?
Barry Conrad
Well, I love, I do love talking about, you know, working out and the relation of muscle to fasting protein and whatnot. I also do like talking about dietary choices as well, but I'm open to everything. I'm, I'm happy to take in any questions that you guys have. If, if there's something that I don't feel that I'm experienced in, I'll just pass it on to Mel because for example, like female hormonal questions or something like that, I'd probably pass the buck. I'd do my best to answer, but then I definitely, what do you think, Melanie?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, very. And in our prep doc, I will make sure to give you a question that's like all about just like the female experience of hormones and you can answer it.
Barry Conrad
metaphors and the
Melanie Avalon
What happens when I have
Barry Conrad
Yeah. I'm gonna stop talking there. Yeah.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, oh my gosh, so amazing. Well, this has been so, so fun. Listeners, you can submit questions by emailing questions at ifodcast.com. You can also go to ifodcast.com and submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifodcast.com slash episode 407. Those show notes will have a full transcript and they will also have links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And I think that's all the things. Oh, you can follow us on Instagram. I am Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad. And we are, I have podcasts on Instagram and yeah, anything from you, Barry, before we go.
Barry Conrad
I hope that you all have an amazing week, rest of your week, and this has been fun.
Melanie Avalon
Yes, this has been so fun and I will talk to you next week.
Barry Conrad
I'll talk to you next week.
Melanie Avalon
Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week! you