Welcome to Episode 458 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.
SHOW NOTES
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, board-certified, fellowship-trained physician and founder of Muscle-Centric Medicine®
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon is an accomplished physician and the New York Times bestselling author of FOREVER STRONG: A New, Science-Based Strategy for Aging Well and author of upcoming book, The Forever Strong PLAYBOOK, releasing on January 27, 2026.
Her groundbreaking Muscle-Centric Medicine® approach places muscle at the center of disease prevention, metabolic health, and true vitality. And while she works with and trains elite athletes, military operatives, and public figures, she's equally focused on building strength and resilience at home, raising two young children while actively living her philosophy with her husband, a retired Navy SEAL.
Dr. Lyon's educational and research background includes dual clinical fellowships in geriatrics and nutritional sciences at Washington University, along with undergraduate training in nutritional sciences at the University of Illinois. A highly sought-after educator and consultant, she is an authority in the practical application of protein types and levels for health, performance, aging, and disease prevention.
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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
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TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 458 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you.
Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 458 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here with the most special guest ever. Honestly, probably one of the most special guest in the show as well. But this woman is a legend, a legend in the world of health, especially when it comes to protein intake and building muscle and supporting your ultimate longevity. That is Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, a stunning, beautiful human being. I've had her on the show before for her work in general, as well as her New York Times bestselling book Forever Strong. And so when I found out that she was releasing the Forever Strong Playbook, I was overwhelmingly excited to dive into it and have her back. And friends, oh my goodness, get this book now. So when this episode comes out, it will be releasing tomorrow. So it's very likely that it's on the shelves when you're listening to this. So get it now. It will answer all the questions you ever had about topics that we talk about all the time on this show, which is how do you get enough protein? How do you structure your diet? How do you support your muscle? How do you have a muscle-centric lifestyle? And then not only that, how do you recover? How do you sleep? How do you change your mindset? I was talking with Gabrielle right before this, and it was perfect timing because Barry Conrad, the normal co-host of this show, sent me some questions for her. And it's funny because the first question he sent me, literally, I don't think he planned this because he hasn't read the Forever Strong Playbook. This is what the playbook answers. So his question was, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, you often say that skeletal muscle is the organ of longevity. If muscle truly is the currency of longevity, what does a muscle-first lifestyle actually look like day to day, not just in the gym, but in how someone eats, recovers, and structures their life?
Melanie Avalon
Friends, that is literally what this book talks about. We have so many things to talk about. I'm just so honored to be here.
And also just thank you for what you do because, honestly, especially when it comes to women, women have been very siloed a bit from the medical literature, the scientific literature, for so long. And you're really the person who brought to the common culture world the importance of protein and supporting muscle and all the things. So I can't thank you enough for all that you're doing and your time, and thank you for being here.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Melanie, it is such an amazing privilege truly. I was thrilled to share this book with you and I am very grateful for your support. I do not take it lightly.
And as I was, we were chatting offline and I was reflecting on where we are in the space. The first book, Forever Strong, really was a manifesto. It talks all about the science, where it is, where it was, potentially where it's going. And this book, the playbook, this book was the book I originally wished I could write. And it is a call to arms. It has an ethos. We talk about muscle and we talk about protein. You know, we talk about building a better mind and body, but what we're really talking about is building stronger, more resilient humans.
Melanie Avalon
I love that. That was one of the things I was going to ask you about and comment on because it's always interesting when you're writing a book or having a project like this.
How do you organize the content? What order do you put it in? What do you lead with? And the book leads with that. You make this beautiful statement about muscle being a metaphor for life. I was like, oh, well, and the importance of ethos and finding your why. When you work with clients and stuff, do you lead with that as well? The importance of the mindset and the why and what this all means like esoterically and philosophically.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Absolutely. And I want to share with you why. No pun intended. There is a common narrative in our society. And it really is that things should be easy, that we should take a warm bubble bath and that when things get quote, stressful, or hard, check out, become distracted, scroll on social media, do a number of things, rather than answering the question for themselves and reorienting themselves to doing the harder thing.
Because when you lean in to do the harder thing, life becomes so much easier. All of them, right? All of the chasing and all of the distractions, that is what makes a very difficult life. Also running away from things that are hard. And understanding that it's normal for things to be challenging. And the idea that we have one word to define the death of a loved one, a breakup, a sickness, going to the DMV, or, you know, I have two little kids, kids spilling on a white sofa. The one word we have for that is stress. One word to define millions of things. And that's, quite frankly, it's inaccurate and incorrect. But when we reorient ourselves to why we do hard things, what stress truly means and start thinking for ourselves, and think in a way that moves the needle forward, because ultimately, the better we become, the better the people around us become. And that is absolutely a question that I ask all of my patients. I still see patients at Strong Medical. We have our head doctor, Dr. Lisa, who is truly extraordinary. But we expect things to be challenging. And we also know that you can get through it, and you can become better and more resilient on the other side.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I love this so much and some thoughts there. One, I love when I read a book and then something from it really trickles into my daily life and I like it pops up consistently and what you just said from what I read in your book pops into my life all the time now. Like just like little minute decisions throughout the day where you know it's a moment of like doing the slightly more challenging thing versus not. I'm like, what would Gabrielle do? You know, lean into the stress. I also notice it a lot.
One of the things you talk about in the book is all of these different ways that you can challenge yourself daily in life, like basically turning daily life into training and into challenges. And that's something not to the breadth of all of the examples that you give in the book, but it's something I've done historically, especially with like carrying heavy things in life and like wearing weights to the store and, you know, not using a shopping card and, you know, all of that stuff. And it's so interesting, like you said about how conditioned we are not to be that way. And again, coming back to being a woman, I think this is part of it. I cannot tell you how many times because one of my like weekly errand thing is I go to Costco and I buy a really shocking amount, large amount of cucumbers. Like we're talking, it's a lot to carry basically. And I can't even tell you every time I go in, I have to prep myself because especially men will come up and be like, like, are you sure you can carry that? I'm like, yes, I'm fine. And they'll be like, are you sure you don't want a car? And literally, I'm like, I'm fine. Yeah. And but then they'll be like, are you short? Like they can't let go of the fact that maybe I want to be carrying heavy things. It's just interesting how it's so saturated in society.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I really appreciate that you're saying that. I also am working on my third book, which is a book about women by me, which I am a woman. And it really shapes that up nicely because through the lens of doing hard things and through the lens of expecting things to be hard and understanding that we have to be very discerning of our thoughts because the thoughts, recognizing that if a thought is relevant or not, we'll then inform our next right action. Discernment comes first.
After discernment is the next right action. And then comes discipline. And then as Jaco Willink always says, there's freedom in that, discipline equals freedom. But there are a series of steps that we have to become very aware of taking so that we ultimately can live the life that we choose rather than go on autopilot. And part of the beginning of the book is it's unusual because a lot of the conversation around friction and doing hard things is solely physical, but there's a million different ways to do things that purposefully create friction in one's life. And friction is that kind of annoying feeling that allows you to move past whatever it is.
I'll give you an example. One way to create friction is if you flip a coin, as you get to go to Starbucks and get the coffee that you love, and maybe it's not Starbucks, you pick it, okay, you know what? As you get to go to Costco and get the cucumbers, tails you down. When you imagine you do that five days in a row and every day you picked the opposite and you weren't able to go, it would be, it's not life changing, but it would be really annoying. And then by the sixth time, you're probably like, you know, it's not really that annoying anymore. When the little things that bother us have less hold over our lives, then things become much more steady and we have a lot more emotional agility, meaning you can move through things very quickly. And that ultimately allows, and people are thinking, well, what does this have to do about a muscle-centric lifestyle? Well, you know, I graduated med school in 2006. I've seen thousands and thousands of patients with hundreds of health and wellness books on their shelf. And the question is, what's the disconnect between actually taking action versus getting more information? And the difference is understanding and being inspired and also understanding the why that you are doing something. And that's how you close the gap because strength is, it's not a luxury, it's a responsibility.
And if we look at the data and you're really great at covering all this stuff, if roughly 70% or more of Americans aren't meeting their daily recommendation for exercise or 73% are either overweight or obese or struggling with obesity, then the conversation becomes very real.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, there's so much here. And I was just thinking how like those stats are really shocking. And then I was thinking about how in the book, I realized it's probably even worse than I thought, because you pointed out, for example, like I always thought standing was like the antidote to sitting. But I learned in your book that you actually have to be moving, like just standing actually doesn't do it. And I was like, okay, like even that wasn't doing what I thought.
Yeah, we're just in such a different lifestyle today from how we used to be. I'm really curious because you talk about how when you're writing the book, you were pregnant, right?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
The first book I was pregnant the second, you know what? I can't remember. No, I was not pregnant with this book. Nope
Melanie Avalon
only the first one. Okay, the first one. Well, either way, with your pregnancies, very random, tangent whole question. I'm just really curious.
Because I asked for questions from listeners for you and we got a lot of questions about protein intake and what if they don't want to eat this much meat and things like that. And I was thinking, did you get changes in your cravings? Did you ever get a meat aversion? Totally.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Actually, it was hilarious. I actually had major food inversion. I also had hyperemesis gravitum. I threw up probably all day long for the entire pregnancy. I was so sick the whole pregnancy, and I couldn't smell stuff. It was really bad.
The way around it was I never forced my body to eat any of the things that I couldn't stomach. Also, I used protein shakes. It was all I could get down, and I was okay with it, and I was okay with it.
Melanie Avalon
Would that be an example where you could have leaned into the hard thing and ate the food?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
No, no, you can't you'll say no, no, no, you can't because you're you're literally throwing up But you know at the time my husband was active duty and I was pregnant and alone in new york city Commuting on the subway living in a tiny little studio It was hard. It was hard being pregnant and alone in new york city commuting from downtown uptown multiple times a week
Melanie Avalon
Wow, I feel like the pregnancy experience is just I mean if we're talking about doing hard challenging things it like it is just that incarnate on a human being
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
How did I train? I trained throughout the whole pregnancy. I brought a barf bag with me. I would do a set and I'd throw up.
Melanie Avalon
Oh my gosh. Wow. Okay. That's motivating.
So it is possible. Okay. So many different weight like directions we could go here. Question about when you work with clients one-on-one, I'm assuming that, and you mentioned, you know, working with one of your clients in the book. I think it was at Danica Patrick, I think. You know, you have to individually work with people and like tailor things to their lifestyle and, you know, whatever it may be. So when you're writing a book for everybody, like the foundational playbook, how do you, how do you do that? Like, is that difficult to make it so that, you know, everybody could make it work for them?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Actually it wasn't because there are fundamental things that we all have to do. And that's really what I put in. I mean, this book is for most people. It doesn't matter how advanced in health and wellness you are or how new you are to training or any of those things.
There are protocols for hot and cold, prehab type exercises, a ton of recipes and nutrition. All of this stuff, it doesn't matter where anyone is in their journey. It's all fundamental behaviors, how to think. Yeah.
Melanie Avalon
It actually wasn't. I'm glad that you provide so many really specific examples of things that people can do with all the things.
So a question about muscle in general, because you have a section where you talk about the new versus the old muscle science. How has our understanding of how muscle maintenance and growth happens, how has that changed? And then also a similar related question just with the science. Because like I mentioned at the beginning, a lot of the science and studies are done in men. Does muscle science, like just pure muscle science, does it translate horizontally, equally from men to women?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
That's a great question. Actually, I'm going to start there. The majority of the data from what I have read and my understanding is that skeletal muscle, there's skeletal muscle, there's cardiac muscle, and there's smooth muscle. Smooth muscle is around arteries, is also in the uterus. Cardiac muscle is the obvious in the heart. And then skeletal muscle, which is striated muscle under our voluntary control. And the majority of that type of muscle, there's type one and type two muscle fibers just to simplify it. They are largely informed and they are largely existent in the body based upon training. For example, the more heavy training you do, the more type two muscle fibers we're going to have. The more endurance type activity you do, the more type one muscle fibers you're going to have. There might be some variation in women having a slightly higher percentage of one or the other, but in the totality of does this really make a difference, it doesn't. For example, women might require a tiny, a little bit more volume or maybe they're better at fat oxidation. And we say this, but we have to really quantify it and when you look at the big picture, how much does that actually play into changing training stimulus and oxidation overall? It doesn't, right? It doesn't. So the muscle fiber, I think it's safe to say is largely dependent on genetics and training stimulus. So that's the first answer.
It's not particularly primarily a sex difference.
Melanie Avalon
and then for the change in how we understand muscle growth.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Well, this is really interesting because the idea that the old thinking was that it was damaged to the tissue and that was the primary driver, but what we know now is that it's really mechanical tension, that it really requires an input to drive muscle growth. So there is mechanical tension followed by a recovery period, which I think that we're becoming more aware of its importance, and this truly is rest, recovery, eating appropriately as an individual ages to, depending on their activity, really augment protein turnover.
Because if we think about what changes as we age, well, almost everything changes as we age, but particularly in muscle and what changes in muscle as we age, is muscle becomes less efficient at turning over. It becomes less efficient at this repair and recovery mechanisms. And the way that we overcome that is through, number one, enough dietary protein to meet the needs of the bodies, the amino acid needs of the body. And essentially, there is a compound effect with resistance training and the utilization of dietary protein and or essential amino acids. And we are becoming more and more attuned to this, especially because of the use of GLP1s. The use of GLP1, the various GLP1s, they will allow an individual to lose anywhere from 14% to 24% their body weight over a period of time, but not all of that is fat tissue, you know, a portion of that is also muscle. And so we just have to become very aware that we protect muscle at all costs and that we understand that more mature muscle can function like younger muscle if it has the appropriate stimulus and the appropriate recovery tools, primarily nutrients like essential amino acids and the stimulus of exercise.
Melanie Avalon
And so with the GLPs, for example, is that something where, because I know when they first came out, there was a lot of backlash, and I guess there still is, about people, like you said, losing a lot of weight but losing it primarily for muscle. Do you think if done correctly, quote, correctly, like with a high protein diet, that people can maintain muscle with that severe weight loss?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Absolutely. And you don't also have to go as extreme, as is required. Meaning, let me reframe this a different way. Right now, when someone goes on a GOP one, if they use traditional pharmacology dosing, as opposed to compounding dosing, compounded dosing, which allows for, say, more of a microdose, then the very robust dosing schedule that comes from a brand name, can have a more rapid weight loss, which makes sense, right? You're accelerating the dosing schedule, or you're doing it as these things are being prescribed, versus using a microdose, which would be a fraction of these GOP ones. We use these GOP ones all the time in clinic. I think they're absolutely amazing and extraordinary. So it's something to note, and they can be used, they're here to stay, and they are the way of the future, for sure.
And one of the other things I think is really fascinating is we talk a lot about body fat percentage, but I think body fat percentage is almost irrelevant. And I think that we're going to start focusing more on something called IMAT, which is intermuscular adipose tissue. And it's the adipose tissue, it's like the fat that is interspersed between muscle fibers or muscle groups. And it's really strongly associated with insulin resistance and muscular dysfunction in people with metabolic disease or people with type two diabetes or obesity. And this IMAT can actually aggravate metabolic disorders, obesity-related metabolism disorders. And this is, again, this is fat that is in the muscle tissue. And we don't really measure that routinely. That's where I think we're really going, yeah.
Melanie Avalon
Is that related at all? Cause I know we hear about like the athletes paradox and you know, having fat in the muscle, but turning it over and using it for fuel.
So is that fat within the actual like muscle cells or is it like where, or is it between cells like where, where?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
So it's between muscle fibers or myofibrils or muscle groups. And that's typically where it's found.
There is something called athlete's paradox in which there is fat that is closer to mitochondria and it's used for energy. But on that is, it is again, it's this fat that expands between muscle fibers or adjacent groups. And you can think about and this is, it's distinct from like an accumulation of lipids within myofibrils. So there's intramuscular lipids. And these are often used for, you know, depending on the athlete can be used for energy. And then the inter and again, this nuances, the nuances don't really matter because no one's thinking, okay, well, is it intramuscular fat or intramuscular fat? But I'm mad, which is what we would call inter fat is within groups. So if you saw like a wagyu steak per se,
Melanie Avalon
Stake is a good example of understanding this, actually.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
It's not what you want. You want your muscle tissue to look like a filet.
Melanie Avalon
Yes. Okay.
Wow. It's funny, whenever I am picking out steaks or when they have wagyu, I'm like, this was not a healthy situation for this animal. All that fat there. So basically, it sounds like it's fat gunking up, being in the muscle when it shouldn't be there.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Yes. And part of this is from sedentary behavior. There's no such thing as a healthy sedentary person. It doesn't exist.
So when someone is eating outside of their muscle health, meaning their dietary choices must match their muscle health. And when this is dysregulated, for example, the average American eats 300 grams of carbohydrates a day, that's three oral glucose tolerance tests that is going to develop unhealthy muscle if someone is not training. And we have to recognize that whether your body composition changes, just the simple fact that you're doing a training program, a resistance training program, and or adding in some kind of cardiovascular activity, that's everything. It decreases intermuscular adipose tissue, your muscle gets healthier, whether or not your body composition changes or not. And that's why I think the playbook is such a good example of a program. You can't be distracted. There's no perfect program. There's no perfect diet. But what really works is when you commit to a program and you are consistent on it, and it has really good fundamental principles. That's how you move the needle.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that was one of the things I really appreciated was the emphasis on the commitment. Come up with the – you give in the book questions to ask so that you can come up with the training program that will work for you, how to plan it into your life, how to commit to it, and then daily check-ins about how to address your training.
But there's no excuses, so you're not going to not do the training. And if you feel like you're not up to it or you're traveling or whatever, maybe you have options where either you do an alternative exercise or a no-excuse exercise or you put it at a different time, but you're not going to not do it, essentially.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
you wouldn't wake up and not brush your teeth.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's a good example. Or it's like me every day. I really have integrated. I think the thing I'm best about doing that's like the hard thing is I do cryotherapy every day. And what's so interesting is I had a conversation once with the person working the machine and they were like asking me if it was easy now because I've been doing it every day for, I don't know, five years maybe. And I was like, no, it's not easy. And they're like, shouldn't it be easy by now? Like, doesn't that mean you're not improving? And I was like, no, I think that's the point is that it's not easy. I think it's not supposed to be easy. So yeah, I just love all of this so much.
Okay, so some other questions. So okay, you talk in the book about something I had not, because we're talking about different types of training here and the importance of adding that to your life. And people talk all the time about high intensity interval training. You talk about something that I was not familiar with, which is, is it strength interval training, SIT? Sprint interval training. Okay, I just wrote down the acronym. But yeah, what is the difference between these two? And I know you do say that in order to do sprint interval training, you first need to be able to jump rope for 10 minutes straight. I was thinking about it in my head. I was like, I don't know if I can jump rope 10 minutes straight. We're in.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Interval training is brutal. High intensity interval training is much more accessible. You're looking at roughly 85% your VO2 max. Sprint interval training is your, it's really your highest level effort. And it's extremely difficult. You have to get yourself in a mind frame that you're ready to do it. It's not for everybody. And it's not something that happens that needs to happen all the time.
That's why it says start with your jump rope for 10 minutes, see how you do. Because when you're doing sprint interval training, you have to, I mean, when I was doing it regularly, I might, I haven't actually been doing it the last couple of months. I've just been hitting my two days a week of some kind of cardiovascular, typically high intensity interval training and then the regular weight training. I do three regular weight training sessions and then one Saturday session, which would be a mix of more metabolic conditioning. But sprint interval training is amazing in the way that it pushes you both mentally and physically and extremely time efficient. We are talking about 30 seconds, 30 seconds full out effort. Yeah, it's intense. And when you do it right, you are gassed.
Melanie Avalon
I remember you said in the book that it's like one of the hardest things you've done. If she says that, then that's true.
What about vigorous intermittent lifestyle physical activity, which kind of sounds like because I talk a lot about like neat non-exercise activity thermogenesis. I was like, is it basically supporting that but in concentrated more intense versions throughout the day.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I think that's a great way to look at it. I think that that is a great analogy, and what people need to think about is people think about exercise snacks, but what actually is, say, for example, an exercise snack, and how much should we be moving?
And I would say adding in vigorous activity interspersed throughout your day is incredible. For example, for me, I usually do multiple sets of push-ups. It doesn't have to be long. You could go for a five-minute walk. You could go for a quicker jog, but you're just getting up, and you're putting your body to use in a way that is stressing the system to allow for better endurance movement, strength, tendon health, all these other positive benefits throughout the day.
Melanie Avalon
And I'm glad you mentioned tendons. So another topic, and again, I really relate to this, but you have a really wonderful section on interpreting soreness and pain. So how to know what to be concerned with and what is normal. And you talk about tendons soreness is different from muscle soreness, which I had no idea about.
What I'm thinking of is, again, like I said, I try to make my daily life, I say that I try to make my daily life heavy. So I try to just carry lots of things and pick up heavy things and all of this. And I actually pulled something once doing it by bringing out too many things from the car. And I remember I went to see the, whoever you go to for that, a muscle specialist. And he was like, oh, you're a one tripper. I was like, yeah, basically I take all the groceries out. But I twisted and did something and twisted something, which you do point out when you're picking up heavy things not to twist or bend. So all of that rambling is to say people recovering and people interpreting levels of pain and soreness, what should they know for what is normal versus not?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Soarness can be normal. The goal is not soreness, but pain that feels sharp, is unrelenting, is uncomfortable. The best way that I can put this is good pain is like a muscle burn. Not good pain is sharp, and it just is so difficult to do any kind of movement.
I mean, you should definitely get evaluated. Think back to the good types of pain, even if you're running a sprint. I mean, that's painful, but you're not hurting. It's just uncomfortable. Versus pain that you tore a hamstring, which I did. Sprinting, you cannot move, it is sharp, it is sudden. And you just know, like you said, when you're a one tripper, something's off. And I would say it's really important. There's a common narrative out there that you just have to lift heavy, otherwise it's useless. And I think that's very dangerous advice because it's not about progressive overload, which is typically what people think. It's about progressive stimulus. Let's say a 40 year old woman reads online that she just has to be lifting heavy. She tears her shoulder because her muscle strength outpaced her tendon health. She's now out of the game for months, which then is gonna lead to loss of muscle mass, probably loss of endurance, all these other things, all because her muscle outpaced her tendon health.
And we have to be really careful when the ultimate goal is to be in this for the long haul. It's a forever strong. It's not strong for six weeks or marginally weak. Forever strong is a way of how do we think about incorporating a muscle forward life? And the way that you do that is you also have to have intelligent training. So lifting heavy, heavy is relative, and that's just one way to increase stimulus. You could change up tempo, add more exercises. There's a million different ways to do it. And it's not just about lifting heavier.
Melanie Avalon
So this is the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, so we can't let you escape without talking a little bit about fasting because I know in the book you do talk about the importance of regular meals and breakfast being the most important meal of the day because it sets you up right for the day with everything. So for so many questions, the breakfast, the breaking of the fast, does that have to be in the a.m. morning hours or what about people who are doing intermittent fasting?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
It doesn't. It does not have to be in the morning.
But typically, I, you know, again, from my perspective, you have to protect muscle at all costs. Protecting muscle at all costs means I don't recommend doing nothing for muscle health all day, you have to decide if you're gonna fast, then you probably need to be moving in the morning. If you're moving in the morning, then you could probably continue fasting. There's nothing magical about 8am for breakfast, or 9am or 10am. It's after you're coming out of an overnight fast. How do we protect our muscles over time? And that is, again, strategically adding in training and also making sure that the amino acid profile and that protein is high enough. And the way to do that is, listen, there are many days that I fast. And on the days that I fast, I typically train in the morning. So I'm providing some type of.
Melanie Avalon
I can't even, especially having done this show for maybe, I don't know, seven years now. I can't even tell you how many times we get what you just talked about, like the question of fasting, training, do you have to eat before training.
So it's really illuminating to hear that it's protective of muscle to be training while fasting, which I think is contrary to a lot of people might assume just thinking about it. Do you have thoughts on the evolving science on, because I think since we last talked on one of the podcasts, maybe is when they released the study looking at how long muscle protein synthesis is stimulated by protein intake and they thought it capped out like a certain amount of time, but it actually keeps going. Do you have thoughts on like, where's the science on that now?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I do. Basically, just to really nerd out, there's something called EIF4. There are these initiation factors that remain elevated for hours. We don't actually know.
So typically, what you're talking about is muscle protein synthesis is a proxy for muscle health. It's stimulating muscle through a mechanism of mTOR. There's a handful of inputs that are very valuable or the primary inputs to then stimulate muscle protein synthesis, all of which for the majority influence mTOR. There's amino acids, there's total energy, there's exercise, and there's growth hormone and insulin. As we age, we become much more dependent on exercise and resistance training. Once muscle protein synthesis is stimulated, this is what we believe to eventually lead to the accretion of muscle. This could last because it's not just mTOR. It's these initiation factors that can stay elevated for hours. Do we know how long? It's probably five to six hours. However, what becomes most important is total protein intake. Total protein intake in a 24-hour period, the first time you eat at least one of those meals because this is the intermittent fasting podcast. There's a really interesting paper by Arnall et al. This was a French group. They looked at older women and they did a crossover design. Each group of the women did one pattern, one group. It was the same group, so they each did this group. One group was one meal at 50 grams per meal and then a handful of smaller meals. They did a crossover design, so they did it again with this group. There was a bunch of smaller meals, five, 10 grams of protein. The one meal that hit that 50, when they did that, it showed more lean mass retention.
Melanie Avalon
Sorry, it was the same time window, but it was broken down.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Yep, and that's interesting because again, this is the intermittent fasting podcast. How do you, if you enjoy fasting, how do you do it while you still protect muscle? And that is the way.
Melanie Avalon
I mean, I still do what I've been doing for like a, I mean, a long time since 2012, 2011, 2010, a one meal a day situation at night, but it's a couple of hours, but it's a massive amount of protein. It's so much protein.
I just love my meat and chicken and fish and everything. We did get some questions though for you specifically, let's see, especially speaking of protein. So, okay, so Teresa, she says, I understand that she says we need to eat one gram of protein per pound of ideal body weight. I've also heard from others.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
body weight, target body weight, which is a really important differentiator. Ideal body weight is something that's calculated.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, so that should be per target body weight.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Yes, where you.
Melanie Avalon
Okay. She says, I've also heard from others like a functional medical doctor that it can be too much.
I'm wondering on days when I'm not lifting heavy, is it just as important to hit the protein goal? If I'm on a rest day or maybe just waking, is it necessary to hit 140 grams? Sometimes I'm just not hungry.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Great question. And I would say that I recommend that people don't go below 100 grams of protein a day, because it seems to lose its metabolic benefit, meaning that when you go below 100 grams, it doesn't have the same impact on triglycerides.
Well, let me take a step back. When you have a higher protein diet with carbohydrates that are controlled, you have lower triglycerides, lower insulin, lower glucose, all of which relate to metabolic syndrome. When all of this is in a diet that matches for muscle health, which by the way, is all reflected in the playbook, by the time you release this, they are going to have released the new dietary guidelines. And the new dietary guidelines, 90% of the new dietary guidelines, I believe are reflected in the playbook, which is going to be the first book ever because, again, when this comes out, the new dietary guidelines will have been released. And how to implement them is in the playbook. Roughly 90% of the new dietary guideline changes already exist in the playbook. Dietary protein is the most essential macronutrient. We need more of it as we age. It is the way in which we maintain body composition. It is the way in which we help tissue turn over nearly every process in the body, which becomes less efficient as we age. You don't need 140 grams. That might be a lot of food, but you do need enough to protect muscle. And the minimum that I, regardless of your weight, would be 100 grams.
Melanie Avalon
It's funny, I think and what I love so as a teaser for listeners and get the forever strong playbook now, because like I said, we're only briefly barely touching on everything in there. But you have a visualization approach to to eating. So you like visualize how things look on your plate, which I think is very approachable for people. And it's honestly, it's the way I think about my food, probably.
I definitely think about things that that way, especially like the protein that I eat. Because if I visualize, if I visualize just 100 grams of protein, I would be really hungry still, I eat a lot of protein. With the change in the dietary guidelines, do you think it's amazing that that's happening? Do you think that really will have a trickle down effect? Like do people, my question is, do people really follow the dietary guidelines? I feel like I'm in this like silo.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
This is a great question. I think that they are going to be so controversial because they are going to be so pro-protein that people are going to have to wake up to that fact. And it's going to be non-negotiable, honestly.
I love that you're saying, do people even follow the guidelines the first place? And I would say, no, they don't. They're eating 300 grams of carbohydrates. They are eating probably around 90 grams of protein. But why this is so important is this creates a structure for people. And this is a structure for people that ultimately is so good for their health and wellness. Critical.
Melanie Avalon
And I'm guessing it would affect school systems.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
It does, very smart.
Melanie Avalon
So that might be where the biggest impact is because, you know, kids, yeah, that's huge. Okay. That's amazing.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
also schools, schools, nursing homes, and military.
Melanie Avalon
So do you think white schools nurse after thing? Wow. Okay. Wow. Amazing. I wonder if that means they'll get rid of I know a lot of schools do like the meatless Monday thing.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Meat, can we talk about that for a second? That is the biggest waste of time ever.
Meatless Monday, Meatless Monday, the impact on greenhouse gas or whatever it is that they were going for for this Meatless Monday would have such a negligible effect that it makes no sense. But what it does do is it distorts the thinking of the youth because the idea is you're gonna reduce your meat consumption to affect greenhouse gas. That makes no sense because the majority of greenhouse gas in the US comes from industry, electricity and transportation over 80%. 9% of greenhouse gas comes from agriculture and beef and dairy. Half of that is vegetables and fruits. Probably four and a half percent of that is from wasted food. So most of that, and then maybe you're looking at three and a half percent of greenhouse gas emissions are coming from beef. Are you crazy? How about, it makes no sense. But what becomes so dangerous about that is now you are putting at risk an already compromised at risk population, young children to then have lower nutrient food.
Melanie Avalon
I will say if listeners want to learn more about that, I would highly recommend Rob Wolf's book, Sacred Cow. It's a really great overview of just the myths there.
And I'll also say, I think if I had to say the one topic, having done these types of podcasts and interviewed so many people for so many years, the most, at least for me, the most confusing thing I think is this issue. And it's just because when I talk to people on both sides, they make really, really compelling arguments. When I interview people who are very pro in the vegan world and very pro Meatless Monday and all that stuff, there's just so much stats and so much information out there and it's overwhelming and both sides can probably cherry pick. The reason I'm saying this is if I'm that confused, then the effect it has on kids, I can't even imagine, the indoctrination of ideas. So yeah, I get stressed about it a lot. Well, hopefully that will go away then unless they can, or they might just keep it and they'll...
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I propose is going to happen. What is going to happen is there's going to be such pushback, it's going to be unbelievable.
And when that happens, there's going to be a lot of discussion. And then what you're going to have to do is you're going to speak to those that are on the guidelines. And those that are on the guidelines are going to have to speak up and make their reasoning clear. And that is going to be really important.
Melanie Avalon
this is exciting times that we live in actually to that point. So say they do keep meatless Monday, hopefully not. But if they do, this is a different Teresa. She said, I get so sick of me trying to get my protein goal of 140 grams in a day and I can't have eggs.
What are her favorite veggie sources of protein? So can you get?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
I mean, you can, but I don't like to think of veggies as protein. Yes, but you can and the way that I would do it would be soy. The way that I would do it would be rice pea blends. All of those are the things that I think are really valuable.
I am not against animal based plant based proteins. I don't think that they are ideal, but you can get enough protein. You just have to be really careful around the carbohydrate intake. They are also not a replacement for animal protein, because what about B12, zinc, selenium, all of those things. It's going to be really tough.
Melanie Avalon
What about, so Amy, so this is so cool, she is a wild land firefighter. She's often on the hill away from stores and civilization for a month at a time.
She says in her line of work, it's incredibly hard for her to get enough protein. The meat that is offered, if it's offered at all, is fast food or slathered in sugary sauces and seed oils. The caterers won't accommodate my sensitivities. What are high protein foods that I can bring with me that require no refrigeration and no stove or oven? Beef jerky.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Beef jerky, sardines, canned chicken are my go-to. Okay.
Melanie Avalon
Awesome. And what about... This is a different Amy.
So if we had two teresis and two Amys, she says, I noticed that she's promoting perfect aminos right now. How does that calculate with her recommended protein intake? Does she take that in addition to one gram of protein per pound of... She says ideal, but I guess target body weight, or in place of some of the dietary protein? How many servings?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Also, you've got some really engaged, sharp community members, people listening to this. When I hit my protein target of 120 to 130 grams, I don't use perfect aminos. When I use perfect aminos is when I am traveling, is when I am rushing in the morning, is when I know that I'm not going to hit my protein target. What I do is I add perfect aminos to my breakfast, and typically, like today, I barely eat. I don't even know what time it is or what day it is.
This morning, I had perfect aminos. This evening, I'll have perfect aminos. And typically, I'll go anywhere from two to three scoops. And what it does is, let's say I am rushing to various podcasts. I might have two ounces of chicken and then two scoops of perfect aminos at the same time. So then it essentially bumps up that protein meal as if it's a four-ounce chicken breast or five-ounce chicken breast, and I don't have to eat all that food. I actually really enjoy intermittent fasting, and I don't really like to think and work on a full stomach. And that's how I use perfect aminos. That's a really valuable way. The other really valuable way is if someone is going on GLP ones, they have to get their protein in. It's devastating if they don't. And then also recovery if you are sore or if you had a really hard training session. Awesome.
Melanie Avalon
And that would also be a good source, I guess, for people who are looking for more, because those are plant-based, I think, or they're not animal-based, I don't think.
Teresa also wanted to know, because she's a new mom, she said, what were the first foods that you introduced to your kids when they were babies?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Liver. Liver was the first one. Liver was the first one. And did they like it? Yes, because they don't know any.
Melanie Avalon
better. Wow. How did their tastes of how old are they now? Four and six. What did they eat daily now?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
My daughter is really interesting. My daughter eats really well and she's very tall for six and my son is my size.
I'm tiny. I'm five one and he's four and he we cannot I mean he loves dried meat but he when I say it's jerky we use this uh brooklyn naked it's so good but he doesn't have a massive appetite and they're both so athletic but they do have very flexible palettes.
Melanie Avalon
Nice. Yeah, I would love to be a fly on the wall and in the lion household. Well, here's a good question maybe to end on and bring everything full circle because I opened with a question from Barry and I said that, you know, your book basically answers it. But he also wanted to ask you, he said, I weigh 80 kilograms, 176 pounds. I'm six foot tall. I do resistance training three times per week, cardio three times per week and follow a 24 IF protocol, essentially a one meal a day situation. What are the most important things guys like me need to get right to maintain and build muscle while still staying lean, especially with a longer fasting window?
And so, yeah, Gabriel, so Barry's my co-host and he's an actor, musician and he, well, yeah, well, yeah, I guess a musician. He sings, he acts, but he has been doing fasting for a long time and trains and looks absolutely amazing. And it's been really nice because up until because you know, I think you know all the prior co-hosts of the show because Cynthia Thirlau, Vanessa Spina. Yes, I love every, yes, I love this girl. Yeah, this has been like the place to be for fasting. I don't know if you know, Jen Stevens, she was who I launched it with. I don't. Okay. Yeah. But Vanessa and Cynthia were absolutely fabulous. Barry's my first time having a male co-host on the show. And it's been really, really nice because so many of the concerns we get or questions we get are about not being able to do fasting and get adequate protein and maintain muscle. And Barry, I mean, he trains, he does one meal a day consistently. He looks amazing. He maintains muscle. So it's been nice to have a male perspective. But yeah, any, any tips for the guys or really, really any, anybody else out there? I guess we talked about fasting, but just any last tips for Barry?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Number one, keep up what you're doing. And right now, if he's younger than 35, he probably has a lot more flexibility.
If he's over 35, and he needs to make sure that he's getting recovery, and that he's training hard enough, and that he's getting enough protein in, potentially hormonal changes can happen. I mean, they don't have to, but you do just want to make sure that you're getting enough rest and recovery so that you can keep testosterone and anabolic hormones high. That would be the thing that I would think, and that allowing yourself, you know, really, it is about maintaining what you have, and you don't need to put on body fat to build muscle, it can be done very slowly. He sounds like he's doing all the right things. I'm not a huge fan of eating just one meal a day. But I do also think that there is this personalization and individuality that is undeniable.
Melanie Avalon
No, to that point. And to answer, I won't tell you Barry's age, but he looks younger than 35 is how I will answer that.
But it's funny, yes, Cynthia used to call me the unicorn because of how I eat with my one meal a day and all the protein. And it's funny because people will ask me a lot, like, what do you do? Like, because they want to, people like to, you know, they see somebody doing what they want to be doing. And so they want to do exactly what they do. And I'm like, you don't, I'm like, don't ask me, like, because I do one meal a day. I don't think it's for everybody. I eat exuberant amounts of protein and it's basically just like plain meat and, you know, like plain food. So I agree with you so much about the individualization. And now I'm just thinking we should, what would the word be? Petition, advocate, they should make the forever strong playbook, like, recommended reading in schools, then we would really change the world's health. Oh my goodness.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
We will and I would love to actually let me share the ethos of forever strong ethos with you. Yes please. And there's a poem and an ethos but I'm just gonna I'm gonna share the ethos. I was gonna
Melanie Avalon
did you write you wrote the poem
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Idea, did you read the poem?
Melanie Avalon
I did, yes. It made me so happy.
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
You can pick which one I read, but I think we don't want people to think I'm too weird, so maybe I don't read the poem unless you think they're going to like that. The poem can be a teaser for the book.
But the ethos, the reason one has an ethos, it's a shared vision and a shared belief system, and it informs how we operate. And that's why I started the book with an ethos. I'm going to read it to you. The forever strong ethos. Aging is inevitable. Muscle is the organ of longevity. Strength is not a luxury, but a responsibility. Through discipline, clear intention, and a collective path of growth, we choose to build bodies and minds that thrive under pressure. We train not just for performance, but for life. We don't shrink from adversity. We are sharpened by it. We lead with clarity, act with integrity. Strength is our choice and our standard. Resilience is our language. Contribution is our calling. We are forever strong.
Melanie Avalon
Absolutely incredible. Thank you.
Thank you for what you're doing. Listeners, get The Forever Strong Playbook now. Get it for yourself. Get it for your friends and your family. It would make a great gift as well. I'm a big fan of like getting gifts throughout the year. So then come the holidays, you have gifts for everybody already. So stock up on gifts and then you'll be good with it.
Yeah, thank you. So where can people, what are the links to give people for all the things?
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
It depends when this is going to air. I think this is airing the day before, the day before. Okay, perfect.
Well, they can go to drgabrielleion.com slash playbook, and there are $400 of bonuses. There's extra recipes, there's a mindset course, there's all kinds of extra bonuses. If they are listening after the 27th of January, you can order it wherever books are sold on Amazon, any of your favorite smaller retails, retailers or bookstores, and it's the forever strong place.
Melanie Avalon
book. Absolutely amazing.
So friends, get that now. Thank you so much, Gabrielle. I just can never, ever, you know, extend enough gratitude for everything that you're doing. I mean, I genuinely think you're one of the most influential, powerful people right now affecting people for their health for the better.
So thank you. And we'd love to have you back on again for the next book. That's going to be
Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
your favorite. That's going to be your favorite. It's the forever strong.
Melanie Avalon
women. Yes. Oh my goodness. So excited.
Thank you so much and safe travels tomorrow. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.
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