Welcome to Episode 488 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

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TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 488 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm joined by my co-host, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out melanieavalon.com and barryconradofficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions@ifpodcast.com or by going to ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you.

Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 488 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad
Melanie Avalon, I am doing so great. It's a beautiful day here.

I thought that I would have completed my wine making so I could actually tell you about it on the show, but I'm, but I'm up to the bottling stage, and that happens tomorrow. So a day short, but it should fill, like, three liter sized bottles or- yeah, which is quite a lot.

Melanie Avalon
That's exciting.

Barry Conrad
It is exciting. I was hoping to have some today, but hopefully tomorrow taste test is gonna be a success.

Not gonna get sick or anything crazy, or it's not gonna taste, you know... Hope it's gonna taste really good. I'm sure it will.

Melanie Avalon
And is it just a calendar thing? Like, they, they say to keep it in there, you know, X amount of days?

Barry Conrad
Exactly. It's just like a clockwork, and so hopefully it'll be all good to go. Ordered the empty bottles and everything, so it's all happening. Drum roll.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. I cannot wait. I wish I could taste it.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I know. Have you made wine before?

Melanie Avalon
No, actually.

Barry Conrad
I'm surprised that you haven't because you are the wine queen. Like, you, you know, you know so much about it. Do, have you ever been interested in making it?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I'm, I'm trying to think if I've made anything. I feel like, I don't know, childhood, like, Creepy Crawlers. Do they have that in Australia?

Barry Conrad
What do they look like? Maybe it's, maybe we do but under a different name.

Melanie Avalon
It was, like, this machine that you would make these, like... Well, first they were not edible. They were, like, these, how do you describe it?

They were bugs that were, like, gooey and you, like, baked them in this, like, machine and you mixed them up, but then they made edible ones, and you made, like, edible Creepy Crawlers.

Barry Conrad
Okay, I'm looking at a photo right now, and I don't think we had those.

Melanie Avalon
Trying to think if I made, like, rock candy. I did make, actually, I did have a kit once where I made, like, root beer. I, I think I made, like, root beer. It was a few different things.

I think cotton candy was in there. I don't remember it being, I'm not a root beer fan, so I don't remember it being that, that great.

Barry Conrad
I can't actually picture you having, I don't know. I can't picture Melanie Avalon holding, like, a root beer. It just doesn't track for me at all.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I was into all those kits though, like all those science kits and, like, make all the things and... But yeah, no wine. No wine. No wine, no beer.

Barry Conrad
I did, though, make something really yummy over the weekend though, Mel. I made, like, a mushroom infused handmade pasta.

So basically, like, taking, like, dried mushrooms so it turns into a powder and then putting that in with the flour and everything, and it was so good. It was so good.

Melanie Avalon
That sounds really good. Mushrooms are, I love mushrooms. I went through a mushroom phase.

Barry Conrad
Say more. What do you mean?

Melanie Avalon
I, where I just was like, "Whoa, mushrooms." And then I wanted to, like, try all the mushrooms, you know? Like, go to Whole Foods and try all the different ones and, like, the different flavors.

Barry Conrad
I think it can be a polarizing vegetable. I, for one, love mushrooms. Some people don't like them, and I don't understand those people.

Melanie Avalon
Well, they're not, and they're not even a vegetable.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Fungi, fungi, fungi, fun- fungus. But some people, a lot of people don't like them.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I, I like them, especially, like, the umami flavor when you, like, put them in something and it, like, fla- like, kind of like what you're talking about. It adds a really nice, nice flavor.

Barry Conrad
A mushroom fettuccine. Uh, how's your week been?

Melanie Avalon
It's good. Can you help me make a very, very difficult decision?

Barry Conrad
Tell me.

Melanie Avalon
And you might have seen me post about this in Facebook, but my fairy garden, I'm s- looking at it right now.

Barry Conrad
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I ordered Morning Glory because apparently it's this plant that really climbs. Like, it likes climbing, so it's climbing up my windows and it's very fast-growing and it looks like an English cottage. So it's doing, it, it was doing great. It's doing great.

Then I have my cucumbers. I got a, I got a pesticide infestation.

Barry Conrad
Oh, no.

Melanie Avalon
So, like, I realized all of the plants were covered with, like, these tiny little black bugs everywhere. Everywhere.

Not, well, only on the cu- I guess they only eat cucumbers and Morning Glory because they're not on my other plants, but I can't decide. So I ordered, like, all of this, quote, "natural insecticide soap" and I, like, sprayed them all and I'm taking the population down, but I don't know. I feel like, I feel like the spray is ki- and then I tried this, like, peppermint neem spray, which I think may kind of weaken the plants. Should I start over or should I, like, stick it out?

Barry Conrad
Where is it up to right now? Like, what's the status?

Melanie Avalon
Like, the bug population status or, like, how much they're growing status?

Barry Conrad
Both.

Melanie Avalon
So bug population, I think I probably took it from 100% down to, like, I don't know, 30%. But I don't know if the bugs are gonna, like, fall. Like, how do I tell if they're dead or not? Like, are they gonna fall off?

'Cause a lot of them are still... So yesterday I got a water bottle and I filled it up with water and I was shooting all the leaves with water, kind of like a arcade range. To like try to blast the bu- the dead bugs off of the leaves. The plants are growing up probably-- I'm really bad at measuring. The morning glory is probably, it's like almost to the top of the windows. And the cucumbers are, I don't know. Should I start over?

Barry Conrad
I think you should start over.

Melanie Avalon
I should?

Barry Conrad
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah?

Barry Conrad
Because the, what you have, you can still, like what you, the, what you've grown you can use.

Melanie Avalon
No.

Barry Conrad
No? Oh, 'cause it's all infested with the bugs. Oh, you have to, you gotta start over.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, you, yeah, you gotta do it.

Melanie Avalon
And I'll just be re- this time I'll be watching from the beginning for bugs.

Barry Conrad
Really monitor it from the beginning, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
It's so sad. I'm so sad. It's fine.

Barry Conrad
But hey, it's your first time, like, y- you're, you're new to this. It's not like you grew up doing, having this-

Melanie Avalon
I'm new to pesticides. Yeah. Well, it's not my first time doing the-- I've been growing them for a few years, but it's the first time that I got a pesticide infestation.

Barry Conrad
So you know, it's, who, you weren't to know this was gonna happen and how it would turn out, so I think it's gonna be helpful to take notes of what's happening and then just start again. You'll definitely get back to where you were, like in no time.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. I should actually go and see like when I actually planted them last and how long it... It just looks so beautiful right now.

I think you're right. I think I should start over. I'll be happy I started over in like two months.

Barry Conrad
Definitely. It'll be sad temporarily and everything, and you could be like, "Oh, look at all the..." You know, but it'll be better because you'll know what to avoid and what to do and what not to do.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I think, I think I'm gonna give it two more days and see if the leaves, see if magically in two days the bugs all fall off and the leaves sprightly up again.

But I think the cu- the cucumber looks like it's on the struggle bus now. I think that that spray, yeah, did a number on the leaves.

Barry Conrad
Demolished it, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
First world problems. Thank you.

Barry Conrad
No, you're welcome. I think you'll feel much better once you have a c- a clean slate with your pesticide debacle, you know?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Yes. Okay.

Barry Conrad
You sound so down.

Melanie Avalon
I know. I really am down, and I have these beautiful flowers I have to get rid of. Yeah, okay. Should we jump into fasting stuff?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it. Let's jump into some fasting stuff. Do you have a study for us?

Melanie Avalon
I have a study to start us off with, and I was really excited to find this study because it's one I've heard referenced a lot in a lot of different things I read, but I never actually read the original study. So I decided to track it down and find it. And it's called, I'll send it to you, it's called "Hunter-gatherer energetics and human obesity." I think this is like the one, there might be other ones that talk about this. So we have this idea, at least I've seen it a lot, where it's like, "Oh, we're really sedentary today." Like hunter-gatherers used to move a lot, and today we just sit around, and that's why, that's a reason that we have the obesity epidemic. So yes, the sedentary lifestyle of today is not good. Like it's really not good, and it probably does contribute to the obesity epidemic.

However, surprisingly, when they went and actually studied a, a modern hunter-gatherer tribe, so the Hadza in Tanzania. So they used doubly labeled water, which is the gold standard for measuring total energy expenditure, so like basically how many calories you're burning every day from both your metabolism and your movement. They looked at the Hadza, which is a population that gets over ninety-five percent of their calories from wild foods, so tubers, berries, honey, wild game. They walk long distances daily. They don't use mechanical tools. So they decided to look at their total daily energy expenditure and compare it to Western populations, including farmers, um, which is probably important to point out. Oh, and by the way, this is a two thousand and twelve study, and it was published in, uh, PLOS One. So what they found, surprisingly, that even though the Hadza are far more physically active and leaner than Westerners, their total daily energy expenditure was statistically indistinguishable from Western populations, even when controlling for body size and age. So the Hadza mens, so the men in the Hadza group, their total daily energy expenditure matched Western mens, and the Hadza women, their total daily energy expenditure matched Western women. So the walking data also didn't predict total energy expenditure, so even though they walked a lot. So like Hadz- Hadza women walk around five point eight kilometers a day. Men walk around eleven point four kilometers a day. Even that said, the individual variations in the walking distances didn't explain the variations in their energy expenditure. So it doesn't necessarily mean that like more movement means you burn more calories, like on a whole body level. There's something else going on. So basically the takeaway, and this study supports this idea of the, quote, "constrained energy expenditure model," and that's that the body seems to keep the total daily e- energy expenditure within a, a fairly narrow range. Even if you're walking, even if like other things like... Sorry. So e- even if you're having a lot of activity, the body will like compensate for that by, you know, downregulating immune function or reproduction or the stress response.

Melanie Avalon
So you can't just be like, "Oh, I, I walked this much more, so I burned this much more today," 'cause your body's probably gonna compensate somewhere else. So what it implies for this, the obesity conversation is that the obesity levels today are likely not because we're not moving. It's probably-

Barry Conrad
Mm.

Melanie Avalon
Like it's something else. Uh, it's probably the, the input of what we're eating. Like that's gonna have a way bigger effect than the actual energy levels. And I don't wanna say this and have people think like, "Oh, that means being sedentary is fine." No, I'm not... Like being sedentary is not good.

Like the Hadza also have like way, even though their energy expe- expenditure is the same as ours, health-wise, like they're doing a lot better with like chronic disease and stuff like that, and a lot of that probably has to do with their active lifestyle. So being sedentary is not good for your health. But, and- We actually, compared to like hunter-gatherer societies, probably burn about the same amount of calories per day. So again, the problem comes down to probably the food intake and stuff like that. So yeah. What are your thoughts?

Barry Conrad
Really awesome study and, and really surprising and not surprising. Like I, I guess I expected because, you know, you always hear, you know, people in like our ancestors or whatnot, like, you know, they burned so much more calories because they were hunters and gather- gatherers and whatnot. But it kind of almost like suggests like the bo- like a body has a, a budget k- kind of thing. Like, you know, um, maybe like the body has an energy budget rather than un- unlimited spending account kind of thing. Like, so if you increase your activity, maybe your body doesn't just keep burning more and more calories forever. Like it starts becoming more efficient somewhere else kind of thing. And like it's, it's, it's interesting because most people assume calorie burn is just, just additive or like there's a cause and effect. Like if you just do more moving, you're just gonna keep burning calories.

And I also really agree with what you're saying. Like it could be easy for some people to maybe think, "Don't exercise then?" You know?

Melanie Avalon
Right. That's the problem. Slippery slope.

Barry Conrad
But it re- but it actually I reckon reinforces that exercise is amazing for reasons beyond just weight loss.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Or beyond like how many calories we're burning from it.

Barry Conrad
Exactly. Uh, also like it was really cool that the paper isn't saying, like it doesn't say like that we're humans are inactive enough or anything. It's like, I guess wh- saying like inactivity probably doesn't just, just explain the obesity epidemic, like what you were saying. It's, it's gotta be, it's gotta be the food or something else happening, you know?

And also like these guys, the Hadza diet, they're eating foods that require effort probably to get, you know? They're not just surrounded by vending machines or any, or drive-throughs or anything like that. So it's a very different time. So maybe it's not just what they're burning, it's like also like their entire environment or, you know, the- their world around them. That's, it's just different to, to us.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so I've been... It's funny 'cause like I, like I said, I, I f- I hear this referenced every now and then in books, and I've always been like real- like it's just so mind-blowing to me. 'Cause you really would think, I mean, I me- those miles I mentioned, what? Like 11 mi- you know? You would think walking like almost a dozen miles that they would burn way more, but they're not.

So they're also not eating all of the food that we're eating.

Barry Conrad
They're probably not. They probably aren't as well, so.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, they're definitely not. And like you said, they have to like work to secure that food and everything.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, and also like does this-- do you reckon this sort of explains why so many people start exercising, expect a huge amount of fat loss, and then like they're gonna hit that plateau or whatnot because exercise alone doesn't just create as big an energy deficit as a lot of people actually expect? You know, it's not, you know?

Melanie Avalon
And on top of that, okay, wait, in real time epiphany. So if this study, if this is accurate and if it, if this is the case that even if you walk like 11 miles, you're not gonna burn any more calories total that day than you would have otherwise, that means what people often do, they go to the gym, they do their exercise, which might not actually affect how many calories they burn in total because of all of these compensatory mechanisms.

But then people are like, "Oh, I exercise, so now I get to eat this treat." So you might have burned the same amount either way, but now you're adding on treats on top of it. Like I know people do that a lot.

Barry Conrad
Yes, like, oh, like they deserve it. Like, "Oh, I need to have a treat now 'cause I've done that."

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.

Barry Conrad
If exercise isn't increasing our total cals burnt as we think, right? Like, what do you reckon the biggest metabolic benefits of exercise that have nothing to do with weight loss is then?

It's like it just opens this whole thing about insulin sensitivity, muscle preservation. It's very interesting.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Cardiovascular health, blood flow. Like it's probably all the other things rather than the weight loss per se.

Barry Conrad
Although I've always thought I, I don't work out to lose weight. The fat loss and whatnot, that's, it's nutrition. Intermittent fasting can help with that for sure, but it's our food choices matter. I don't go to lose weight to go to the gym.

I go to stimulate my muscles and, and do that, you know? I, I don't do it to lose, to change the scale.

Melanie Avalon
Like the mental health benefits of it are very powerful.

Barry Conrad
Great study, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Shall we dive into some listener questions?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So the first question comes from Abby. The subject is being hungry, and Abby says, "Okay. I have been listening to your podcast for a short while, but have been consuming it voraciously." What a nice vocabulary. "I have followed diets of some sort since I was 9 or 10, and I am now 38 and a half. I have definitely done damage to my metabolism, although I don't live in an overweight body through a lot of control. My question has to do with the fact that you say that after one gets used to IF, the gnawing hunger pains subside. And what doesn't subside, you learn to recognize, say hello to, and then say goodbye to until you feel like opening one's window. In all my nutrition knowledge, I have always learned that when you stop feeling hungry, it's because your metabolism is slowing down and just stops needing food, which isn't necessarily a good thing.

It will use the food and the calories you are providing to take care of the most crucial body systems and just shut down the inessential ones. I know that one's body will probably get all the calories it needs during its window, but are we shutting/slowing down our metabolism until we re-feed our bodies again? I hope this is all clear. Thank you."

Barry Conrad
Abby, this is such a thoughtful question. Thank you for your question, and I think you're asking something that is sort of like at the heart of why so many people aren't initially skeptical maybe about intermittent fasting because- You can hear, you know, the s- some version of the same message for years, like if you're hungry, eat, never skip meals, you know, eat every few hours to keep your metabolism stoked or spiked, keep the fire going. And if you stop feeling hungry, your metabolism must be, must be slowing down. That must be the reason, but that, that's things that you hear. Those ideas have been repeated so often, and I reckon it's, it's completely understandable to wonder whether fasting is just teaching the body to shut down its hunger signals and limp, like limp along with fewer calories. But the good news here, Abby, is that what we see happening in fasting is much different to that. So one of the things that fascinated me, fascinated me when I first started learning more about IF some seven-plus years ago now, is that hunger isn't nearly as linear as most of us think it is. So before fasting, many of us, at least I did as well, assumed that hunger simply gets stronger and stronger until we eat because I love food so much. But that's not usually how hunger works. Hunger is actually influenced by hormones, habits, your meal timing, your, your, your stress, your sleep, your even the clock. That's why so many people notice they're hungry at noon because it's noon. They look at the clock. It's like, "Hey, it's noon, time to eat." Not necessarily even because their body urgent- urgently needs the fuel. Then they skip lunch one day, you know, maybe find something surprising. The hunger rises. It hangs around for a bit, then it fades away, not just because metabolism suddenly shuts down, but because that hunger wave actually passes. Surprise. So I remember that being one of the most eye-opening things about fasting for me, Abby, and learning that hunger wasn't an emergency. Hunger is not an emergency, and it was information, and that's really different.

So let's talk about metabolism because that's really the core of what you're asking here. So if someone is chroni- chronically undereating, aggressively restricting those cals, losing weight through, like, just depriving themselves, of course, like over time, the body can absolutely respond by conserving your energy. You know, it happens, but intermittent fasting isn't supposed to be chronic starvation. It's not starvation. Anybody out there listening, it's a really important distinction because the goal isn't to eat tiny amounts of food forever. That's not the goal. The goal is to eat adequately during the eating window. Like, eat what you need, your body needs, and allow the body periods of time without incoming food. So those are very different situations. So Abby, the-- one of the reasons fasting works so well for many people is that the body becomes better at accessing stored energy between meals.

Barry Conrad
So instead of, for example, like constantly demanding new fuel from the outside, it becomes more comfortable using the energy it already has available. Isn't that amazing? And that's, that's not metabolic damage. That's metabolic flexibility, and I think that's awesome.

And honestly, I think it's one of the most empowering things that I feel about fasting, and you really start to, you really start to realize your body isn't fragile. It's not as fragile as what we think, and it doesn't just fall apart because lunch is delayed or i- it's, it's incredibly adaptive. And can fasting be done poorly or in a way that's not optimized? For sure. Like if someone's fasting for long periods of time while really undereating, under-recovering, sleeping really badly, stressing the body out nonstop, that's a whole different thing. But that's not the same thing as like a well-structured fasting lifestyle where someone is really nourishing themselves during their eating window. And Abby, one thing I also picked up on in your question here is your, your history of dieting. So you've been dieting in some form since you were nine or ten. That's a long time, Abby, and I reckon, I reckon a lot of people out there can relate to that because when you spent decades being told to maybe micromanage your food, count your calories, fear hunger, constantly control what you're eating, it can feel almost suspicious when hunger starts becoming calm. It's like, "Surely something must be wrong." But what if the opposite is true, I'd ask, because what if the body is finally becoming less preoccupied with food? What if some of your, some of those constant hung- hunger signals that you had were being driven by years of dieting, grazing, sugar swings, uh, blood sugar swings, food rules, mental restriction? You know, one, one thing we hear over and over from long-term fasters, Abby, is not that they become disconnected from their bodies, but they become more connected. They start recognizing the difference between true physical hunger and a habit, and between appetite and boredom, between nourishment and emotional eating, and that awareness is incredibly powerful.

So when people say the gnawing hunger gets better over time, I don't think it's because the metabolism is shutting down. I think it's often because the body becomes more metabolically flexible. The hunger hormones become way more predictable. People stop interpreting every hunger s- signal as an emergency, and to me, that's one of the most freeing parts. So Abby, no, I don't think the disappearance of the constant hunger automatically means your metabolism is slowing down. In a lot of cases, I reckon it's a sign that your body is becoming more efficient at accessing your stored energy and that your relationship with your hunger is actually changing.

And after a lifetime of dieting, that shift can feel, can feel unfamiliar. I get it, that maybe it's almost too good to be true, but sometimes the body isn't breaking. It's, it's learning. It's learning to trust itself. So I hope that's helpful. Mel, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
You know, that was incredibly comprehensive and awesome and all the things I was gonna say. Yeah, the only thing I'll emphasize and add to it a little bit is like you were talking about the, the difference between the hunger being a, like waves and something that passes versus Ongoing and something that is a sign that your metabolism is, metabolism is slowing down.

So ghrelin is what we think of as the h- hunger hormone, and it is very habitual. So basically, when you eat in certain patterns, it adjusts accordingly. And, um, like I said, it, so it makes you feel hungry. So if you've conditioned, if you've, like, conditioned yourself to be eating, you know, breakfast, lunch, dinner, you're gonna have ghrelin spike before breakfast, lunch, dinner because that's what you're used to and that's when you get hungry. So then when you switch to fasting, now you're not eating breakfast, lunch, dinner anymore. Maybe you're just doing lunch or just dinner or whatever it may be. At first, you're gonna feel hungry during when you normally would have eaten because ghrelin is still there. But then when you stick to it for a few days, ghrelin adapts to the new schedule. So the reason that you're no longer hungry literally has nothing to do with your metabolism. It's just that the hormone that regulates hunger adjusted to the new schedule.

So that's an example of, you know, not being hungry, not being a sign of your metabolism slowing down. And then another reason that we constantly get hungry throughout the day is because of insulin.

So we get insulin resistant. So insulin is the hormone that helps your body. It's released when we eat, and it helps put our calories into fat stores, and it makes us-- So, so basically, the insulin spikes and drops make us crave food because we have a meal, we release insulin, insulin puts the food away, and then insulin drops, and now we're hungry again. So it's like this rollercoaster that we're on. But when we start doing fasting, insulin stabilizes. It stays low during the fast. It's not spri- spri- spiking hunger. So that's another example of adapting to a hormonal pattern that is not related to the actual metabolism.

And then ketones, so when you get into ketosis when fasting, ketones actually have an appetite-suppressing effect. So not only like Barry was saying are you burning fat, you know, you're, you're getting fuel from yourself. Like if you have a new fuel source because you're burning body fat, on top of that, the fuel source that you're burning once you start creating ketones also suppresses appetite. So all of these things are reasons that, oh, you don't have hunger anymore, but it's not because your metabolism is like down-regulating.

That can happen if you go too restrictive. It also is gonna happen, and this is like the, the nuance about it, so when you weigh less, you require less calories. So if you lose weight from fasting, your metabolism will by nes- by necessity or most likely, quote, "lower," but it's because you have a lower body, so you don't require burning-- you don't-- which does not require burning as much calories through the metabolism.

Melanie Avalon
And then same thing, if you gain weight, that can, quote, "increase your metabolism." So like that adjustment in the metabolism is not a problem. It's literally just like facts. Like you lost weight, so now you burn less calories. It's when you over-restrict and over-under eat and are not getting your nutrition or lose too much weight and stress is too high that that, that is a different type of hunger.

That is where your metabolism is down-regulating. Your body's trying to conserve fuel sources. That's what you want to avoid, and that is the things that constant chronic dieting is gonna cause, yo-yo dieting is gonna cause. But when you're doing intermittent fasting in a healthy, stable way, yes, it's, it is expected that hunger will no longer be a sign of, um, that it's a good sign that hunger goes away and that it passes. And I also agree with what Barry was saying about like that's a long time to be dieting and, um, you know, being in that, that mindset of control and fear comes from diet culture. It can be really hard to break free from, and I think that's one reason that intermittent fasting works so well for people because you finally can lose that, that intense need for control and fear and like feeling like you always have to be calorie restricting and dieting and, and controlling everything because you just set up your eating window. You eat what you-- all you want in your eating window and, and you experience what you want, which is like weight loss and hunger regulation and all the things. So definitely, Abby, let us know how things go with everything.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, keep us posted, Abby.

Melanie Avalon
Shall we answer another listener question?

Barry Conrad
Yes. So we have an email from Carol, and Carol writes, "Hello. I started the keto diet and added in intermittent fasting and then found your podcast so I could clarify questions that I've had. I am on episode ten," so she's way back now.

"I'm on episode ten, and I'm really loving it so far. I'm not quite to a short window of eating." I think she meant to say I'm not quite used to quite a short window of eating yet. "I start around two and go to about ten, which has been the norm most of my life anyway, so I'll probably have to shorten that eventually, but I'm just trying to adjust to keto at the moment. I have not heard you discuss leptin resistance, and I have severe sleep apnea and use a CPAP machine. And I was reading, because I'm not losing weight, that when you have leptin resistance, it can take six to eight weeks for the hormones in your body to adjust. And so when I hear people ask questions like, 'Why haven't I lost any weight in a couple of weeks?' I hear you guys say, 'Give it time,' but I haven't heard anything about the six to eight weeks and letting your body adjust to leptin resistance, which can c- be caused by stress and multiple other factors. So I was just wondering if you could do some research on that and explain exactly what leptin resistance is and then maybe when people writing in questions wanting to know why they haven't seen results in a week or two weeks-" That you could offer them some encouragement to be really patient and let their bodies adapt.

One important note that I read was that you should cut out all processed foods to allow that leptin resistance to take care of itself. I have been doing clean keto for four weeks. I have not deviated at all, and my weight is not budging. But I'm not discouraged, and I am feeling better, and I'm using that t- this time that my body needs to adjust to learn as much as I can, and your podcast is helping immensely. Much love, Carol the Bell. P.S. Sorry for the run-on sentences and the bad grammar. I do not know how to use voice-to-text very well, and I'm driving." Mel, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Well, Carol, thank you so much for your question and drawing attention to this. And this is actually-- I-- This is perfect. I didn't plan this, but I was just talking about the hunger hormone ghrelin in the last question from Abby.

So leptin, it's kind of like the flip side of ghrelin. So ghrelin is a hu- a hormone that increases hunger. Leptin reduces hunger, actually makes you feel full. So to talk a little bit more about leptin and leptin resistance, what- which Carol is talking about. So leptin is actually produced by our fat cells, and like I said, it tells our hypothalamus and our brain that we have ample energy stores and that we don't need to be hungry because basically we're good, like we got enough body fat. And in a n- a healthy body, you have more body fat, more leptin, less hunger. The problem is that especially today with like the obesity epidemic and all of the inflammation and weight gain that we're experiencing, our bodies are often producing too much leptin from all of the weight gain and the inflammation. And so the hypothalamus becomes desensitized. Like it doesn't, it doesn't really listen to it anymore because it's getting hit with leptin too much. So what ends up happening is your leptin signaling, which is supposed to make you feel full, doesn't work. Like the brain thinks it still needs more food because it stops listening to leptin. So that makes you be consistently hungry. It also reduces your energy and expenditure. It makes your body try to defend this higher set weight point. So yes, it is something that can be-- I'm glad we're talking about it. Like it is something that people could... They could start the fasting. Maybe they're doing keto, cleaning up their diet, whatever they're doing, regulating their insulin. It can take a, a bit for leptin resistance to, to resolve. So, so yes, it is a very real thing what Carol is doing. So cutting out ultra-processed foods, that, that's really great because you really wanna cut down that inflammation. That's gonna really help. The sleep is also really important, and it's, it's really interesting that she has the sleep apnea connection because sleep apnea is actually directly linked to leptin dysregulation. So th- that is definitely, definitely something that you want to address because in order to get your leptin resistance resolved and u- under control, you definitely wanna be getting good sleep. So hopefully the, the treatment with the, the CPAP machine is going to work for you, but that should definitely, definitely really help. And then as far as like the six to eight weeks, that is a good-- that's a good number for like how long it might take, but there's not like any one amount. It's not like you hit six weeks and like you're cured from leptin resistance. Like it's very individual. It depends by how much you're changing. So are you reducing inflammation? Are you getting sleep? Are you cleaning up your diet? But what you're doing, Carol, as f- like, you know, four weeks of a clean keto with no deviation, like that's really, really great for that.

Melanie Avalon
So, so yeah, I, I think leptin, it's interesting because I feel like, I feel like we talk about insulin like all the time, but leptin we don't talk about as much, and it's definitely a very, very real thing, especially if you're coming from a over- like a overweight and obese or an, an inflammatory state. So yeah.

Do you have any thoughts, Barry?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, that was really, really awesome, Mel, what you said. And Carol, first off, I love that you're listening while you're driving. That's ... I had to laugh at the voice-to-text thing. That's hilarious.

I, I reckon one of the most important things you said, Carol, was, quote, "I'm not discouraged, and I'm feeling better." Honestly, that's massive because when it, when it does come to leptin resistance, I do think like one of the biggest mistakes people can make is expecting like your body to undo like years or decades of metabolic dysfunction in a couple of weeks or whether that's sleep or insulin or leptin or stress or all of the above. You know, I think the body needs time to recalibrate to something new. And I think your sleep apnea situation is really important as well because sleep affects so much. It affects so many hormones involved in our satiety, our cravings, our hunger, and our weight regu- regulation. So when someone is improving their sleep and changing up their nutrition and, and introducing fasting at the same time, that's a lot happening under the hood, I reckon, and it might not all just show up on the scale immediately, you know? So that's why I'm such a big fan of paying attention to non-scale victories. You know, you're more, more energy, fewer cravings, you know, better sleep, better moo- mood. And I know, Carol, that four weeks can feel like eons, especially like when you're waiting for results. But in terms of your, your healing and your metabolic healing, it's, it's still early. It's early days. So I'd say keep doing what you're doing. Keep-- Stay the course. Stay curious. It's the long game. This is the long game. And keep, keep getting those wins and letting us know how you go. It sounds like you're making progress, so stay patient and keep us posted.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes. All right. Shall we do one more question?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So our last question comes from Penelope. The subject is black coffee on stomach lining and insulin spike after eating window. And Penelope says, "Hi, I really love your podcast. I learned about it a week ago, and I binge listened while I'm at the office. I wonder about if black coffee on an empty stomach can affect the lining and cause problems.

I also wonder about if drinking a sweet tea after my final meal counts as fasting because the insulin is already high and it won't make me hungry since I'm full. I think it's okay? I'm about two weeks in and already lost seven pounds. I was at my highest, two hundred and fifty pounds." She put it, and then she put a sad emoji. "I'm really enthusiastic. I feel so more connected with my body, and it keeps me from overeating while feeling satisfied. It feels good to have your support. Thank you, and keep up the good work."

Barry Conrad
Penelope, welcome. First off, welcome to the fasting community, intermittent fasting community, and, uh, can I just say, like, I love hearing that you're, you're binge listening to the pod and, and at work. Hopefully, some of those people can hear it as well. Hopefully, you're getting through the workday a little faster while we keep you company. And massive congrats on getting started, seriously.

You're two weeks into this, Penelope. You've already lost seven pounds. That's no joke. But I think what actually stood out to me more was something else you said. You, you mentioned feeling more connected to your body and more satisfied around food. And honestly, that is-- I have to echo what I said about Carol as well. Like, it's, it's just another non-scale victory as we like to say here. Because yes, weight loss is great. You know, a lot of people start intermittent fasting for that. But learning to trust your body again, not feeling like food has this hold over you, that's something that can change your life, actually. So to get into your question here, let's kick off with your black coffee. This is something that comes up a bit, and I think there are really two conversations happening here, Penelope. So for most healthy people, drinking black coffee on an empty stomach isn't-- it's not, it's not really thought to damage your line, stomach lining too much. That's really a common myth. Your stomach is actually designed to handle highly acidic environment. Can coffee maybe increase your stomach acid production? Yeah, s-sure it could. And if someone already has acid reflux, for example, a sensitive tummy, gastritis, or other digestive conditions, they, they may notice their coffee first thing in the morning is gonna make that worse and not feel too great. So there's that, that aspect of it. So I don't think it's just a case of coffee being bad. I think it's a case of listening to your body, as we like to say a lot on this podcast as well, 'cause it's true. Because personally for me, if black coffee makes you feel good during your fast, get that. Like, I love coffee so much. Black coffee makes me feel amazing. If it consistently leaves you with stomach pain though, or reflux or nausea, then not awesome. That's your body's way of giving you info that you should pay attention to, Penelope.

And one of the things, you know, one of the things intermittent fasting has taught me is that we definitely don't all respond identically to the same foods or drinks at all. So the sweet tea, for example, totally understand your reasoning and it's-- and honestly it's a, it's a logical question. You know, you're like, "Well, I've eaten, my insulin is already elevated from my meal. If I have sweet tea afterwards, I'm full anyway, so does it really matter that I'm having the sweet tea?" From a hunger standpoint, maybe not, but from a fasting standpoint, like if a clean fast, yes, it does matter because the fasting window begins when you've finished consuming your calories. So if the sweet tea contains sugar or calories, which it likely does, you essentially extended your eating window rather than starting your fast. Does that make sense?

Barry Conrad
So that's why we often, we often encourage people to think, think of the end of your meal as that, like it's the end. So once that meal is done, and that could include your drinks and whatnot as well, but once that's done, that's when your fasting clock can begin again. So if you having the sweet tea is something you truly love, Penelope, and it's part of your lifestyle, you enjoy it, you could absolutely just choose to have it as part of your meal, and like have it in your window. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

But if you're asking whether it counts as fasting, technically it wouldn't c-count as like the clean fast. And I think that's another reason why the clean fast is so, so powerful because it cr- it does really create clear boundaries. You eat, then you're done, your fast begins. You don't really wonder or guess whether this drink counts or, or that little bite doesn't count. It just becomes really simple, and that's one of the things I love about it. Like, less decisions 'cause there's enough decisions to make on a daily basis. On another thing, um, I wanted to say, Penelope, was that you've only been doing this for two weeks, so that's pretty early. You, you're still learning your body, your hunger hormones are adapting, your routines are changing, so, you know, don't be too hard on yourself. Encourage you just not to get too caught up in like trying to optimize every little thing just yet. You know, you just started and sometimes we can spend so much time maybe worrying about one cup of tea that we forget, like we're already making all this pro- this massive progress. You're eating more intentionally. You're feeling good, connected, feeling satisfied. Those are all s-signs, Penelope, that something is happening that's positive. My advice would be to keep building on that. Enjoy your black coffee if it agrees with your tummy. If it doesn't, tweak, pivot, adjust, finish your calories before your, your beginning your fasting window, and keep paying attention to how you feel because one of the biggest things fasting teaches us isn't just when to eat, it's how to actually listen to our bodies again. But Penelope, sounds like you're killing it, and you're well on your way to doing exactly that. So Mel, what do you, what do you think about this?

Melanie Avalon
Amazing. Yes. You, you said pretty much everything I would say. Um, to emphasize about the, the black coffee and the acid, uh, I was thinking of an analogy while you were talking about it. It's similar to protein and like chronic kidney disease, for example. So people will think that high protein intake causes kidney problems when that is not the case And if you have kidney problems, then protein might... A high pro- a super, super high protein diet might be problematic if your kidney already has the problems preexisting. So same thing with coffee and the acid. So normally your healthy stomach lining is, is good with black coffee. Yes, black coffee is acidic and can increase stomach acid production. Our stomach though is a highly, is a very high acidic place. So it's not like you're like an alkaline stomach and then you add coffee and you become acidic. No, it's already acidic, so it, it like fits in well in the environment. But if you already had like a preexisting condition like gastritis or like chronic stomach inflammation or acid reflux or GERD, then it might aggravate that condition based on, you know, your individual, your individual body. But it's not, it's not gonna be the root cause of that.

So most people are usually, you know, good with stomach even on an empty stomach while fasting. But if you do have acid reflux, ulcers, gastritis, then you probably wanna pay more attention. And yeah, and same about, so the, the sweet tea like Barry was saying. It's actually, it does make a lot of logical sense. Like I, my insulin's already high, so if I have something, like how is that any different? Like there's already food in my stomach. My insulin's already high. The thing is exactly what Barry said, is that you're extending-- So you're, you're not in a fasted state once you start fasting. You're, you're te- you're still in the post-absorptive state of food, but the fasting window that we're counting for like how many hours have, have we fasted, we do count that like once you stop eating. So if you ingest some sweet tea, that's just going to extend the amount of time until you start counting the fasting hours again, which is what, what Barry said. I'm just saying it again. And I will say, since we're talking about coffee, if friends, listeners would like the most healthy, best coffee that you can put in your body, I... And especially because coffee is such an incredible tool in the toolbox when it comes to fasting because it give, it helps with energy, suppresses hunger, hel- it helps, it helps with fat burning. Lots of studies show the cognitive benefits of coffee, especially just for like our brains and how we think and being preventative of, you know, dementia and Alzheimer's and all the things. Like coffee has a lot of potential health benefits, and it is the number one source of antioxidants for most people, which is crazy. I mean, that says a lot about our coffee drinking habits. But the thing is, where the beans come from determines those antioxidant levels, and how you roast it determines the antioxidant levels.

Melanie Avalon
So I decided to make the best coffee to support your fast or your eating window. But, um, that's Glow Coffee. So we, we sourced and tested beans to find ones that were really high in CGA, which is the primary antioxidant in coffee, and then we roast the coffee to preserve that. 'Cause you, if you-- The way you roast coffee determines how much of that, of those antioxidants actually hang around. And then of course it comes from a organic farm, regenerative farm in Colombia, all female-led. We, on top of it coming from an organic farm, we test for over 70 pesticides, heavy metals, all the things. So it's glowcoffeeco.com. You guys can use the coupon code IFPODCAST to get a discount on your first order. We did also recently lower the price to make it more affordable for people because we wanna be sensitive to that.

So yeah. Shall we have our proverbial breaking of the fast moment? Speaking of-

Barry Conrad
Let's do it. Let's jump into our proverbial breaking of our fast, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
All right, listeners, friends, so this part of the show is to honor the eating part of the fasting lifestyle because all the health benefits of fasting do not just come from the fasting, they also come from the feasting, from the eating part. So what we like to do is find restaurants that we would like to visit and talk about them, profile them, and say what we would eat at that restaurant.

So Barry, what restaurant do you have for us today?

Barry Conrad
So today, Mel, I actually am choosing a restaurant from New York again. I have not been there though, and I can't wait to visit.

It's called The Grill, which is everything that I love about food. Give me some meat. And this is set inside the iconic Seagram Building. The Grill occupies the legendary former Four Seasons restaurant space. It's one of the most iconic celebrated dining rooms in America in a designated New York City landmark. Fully à la carte. Wine list is meant to be one of New York's finest. The room is itself is the star. 32-foot ceilings, shimmering bronze curtains, and dramatic pool at its center. It creates one of the most breathtaking restaurant interiors. So this sounds awesome. Really glamorous, grand, luxurious. So it apparently feels like step- stepping back into the golden age of New York. So, and a cool fact about it is the original Four Seasons restaurant was the place where presidents, royalty, Hollywood legends, and Wall Street titans all went. So when the major food group reopened the space as The Grill, they restored it while bringing back the theatrical style of service that made it famous.

Melanie Avalon
Nice. How did you find it?

Barry Conrad
I just did my deep dive, you know, just going through the internet, and I, I hadn't been there before, but I've heard good things about it as well from friends who've been there.

And I've sent you the link in the m- so you can have a-

Melanie Avalon
I'm looking up pictures of it 'cause there aren't any pictures. Are there pictures on the website?

Barry Conrad
No, it's not really a picture heavy website, but if you-

Melanie Avalon
I found one. Okay. It looks very, it looks very like classy New York style.

Barry Conrad
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I like the stuff hanging from the ceiling.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. I thought that you'd like it. It's very like l-luxurious.

Melanie Avalon
Is that a chandelier? What is hanging from the-- There's like stuff hanging from the ceiling. It's like... Do you see that?

Barry Conrad
Yeah. What do you think it is?

Melanie Avalon
It looks like it's a... I don't know It looks cool

Barry Conrad
It's like almost like shards or something. It's cool, yeah

Melanie Avalon
Looks a little... Hope they don't all fall on you, get decapitated.

Barry Conrad
The lighting looks like it's quite nice as well, so it's not too glary, which I know Mel's not a fan of. Neither am I.

Melanie Avalon
We don't do that. All right, so I'm really excited. Shall we look at the dinner menu?

Barry Conrad
Let's look at the dinner menu.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, and look what the first, look what the first word is on the dinner menu.

Barry Conrad
Lo and behold.

Melanie Avalon
Oysters, comma, clams, comma, et cetera, which, fun fact, I learned today that I have been pronouncing et cetera wrong my entire life, and I am very embarrassed.

Barry Conrad
What did you used to say?

Melanie Avalon
Et cetera.

Barry Conrad
Et cetera?

Melanie Avalon
Ex, like ex, like et cetera. Like apparently it's very common, people doing this, but no, it's et cetera.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, et cetera.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. We were actually working on, like, my Craving App dating pitch deck, and I was, like, pitching and, yeah, learned that. Okay, so oysters, clams, et cetera. Our finest raw selections.

Barry Conrad
Jumping out at you, anything there?

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Whoa, A selection of continental ham. I wonder if... Is it, like, prosciutto, or is it... No, yeah, or is it, like, ham slices?

Barry Conrad
I wanna believe that it's gonna be ham slices. That's my projection.

Melanie Avalon
That's kinda cool. I would, yeah, I would like some house cured salmon, even though I think it'll be salty. So would you eat the rest of it if I just have, like, a tiny taste?

Barry Conrad
Yes, definitely.

Melanie Avalon
And then I will take a selection of continental ham.

Barry Conrad
What a great choice. I'm gonna go for the Montauk Pearl oysters.

Melanie Avalon
Really?

Barry Conrad
On the... What a surprise.

Melanie Avalon
Curveball.

Barry Conrad
I know, curveball. I'm gonna do Montauk Pearl oysters, and I'm also gonna do some sardines. I actually do like sardines, so I'm gonna try them.

Melanie Avalon
I thought you were gonna say sardines.

Barry Conrad
Why? Just had a vibe?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.

Barry Conrad
There you go. And then I may have a bite of your continental ham, the selection of continental ham, if you consent.

Melanie Avalon
No, actually, I would prefer to have just, like, a small bite. So if you would have the rest, that'd be, that'd be dandy.

Barry Conrad
Great, dandy. And now we're gonna scroll on down to assorted appetizers.

Melanie Avalon
Assorted appetizers.

Barry Conrad
Hot and cold selections. Anything there, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
I do. I would like the steak and anchovy tartare, please. And if they can have that deconstructed. Actually, I only want it if it can be deconstructed.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, right. I actually knew you were gonna get that. I knew you were gonna get that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Even though I don't even... Actually, I don't think I've ever had anchovies before.

Barry Conrad
Really?

Melanie Avalon
I don't think so. Like, I actually don't even know what they taste like.

Barry Conrad
Oh my gosh. Do you know, ah, do you know what?

Sidebar, I w- went to dinner with some friends the other night, and it was another, another Melanie who loves Disney and doesn't like oysters. It was very funny.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, you told me that. Yeah, I think, 'cause I s- I, 'cause I was saying that Melanies are, you know, what's up.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny. Hilarious. Okay, so I'm gonna go... You, so you just want the steak and ancho- anchovy tartare, or do you want something else as well?

Melanie Avalon
Deconstructed, yeah. If, if they have, like, egg and stuff in it, like, if they can, like, have it on the side, like, everything on the side, and then I can, like, mix it up myself. Yeah, I, I'm feeling good about that.

As you know, they, they have scallops, so maybe that, because I can get scallop as an appetizer, just never as an entree. So maybe s- scallop as well. How about you?

Barry Conrad
I think the crayfish sausage looks intriguing. Crayfish sausage sauce with sauce Creole. So I'm gonna try that just because I'm curious what that's gonna be like.

And then I think the tuna ravigo- ravigote. Is that how you say it? That sounds great.

Melanie Avalon
Listeners, let us know if you want us to, like, get an app and start pronouncing everything really correctly.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I'd be curious to see, are they gonna, are they about to butcher this again?

Melanie Avalon
I'm gonna poll on the Facebook. I'm gonna... That's gonna be my Facebook post for today. I'm gonna poll about this.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny. Like, do people laugh at us, or do they go, "Ugh, again, really?"

Melanie Avalon
We probably should, 'cause then we would learn, like, how to say st- You know, it, it would be, like, a learning experience for us.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I think so. Mel, there is a... I know that you hardly, actually never get this, but I'm g- I'm gonna ask anyway. There's some soup here and some salad. Anything there?

Melanie Avalon
So soup and salad, I'm gonna pass. How about you?

Barry Conrad
I love that you ask. Yeah, no. I'm gonna do the blue crab gumbo, because I like anything gumbo-esque, and I'm gonna pass on the salad. I can do without that.

Melanie Avalon
And listeners, if you ever look up this restaurant and you find a menu that starts with a salad, let me know, 'cause I'm having a Mandela effect where I, like, was on a menu that no longer exists, apparently.

Barry Conrad
That's so crazy.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Seafood.

Barry Conrad
Yes, you love seafood. Anything there?

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, actually, so we should... So the options are, there, so there's, for the entrees, there's seafood, there's chops and birds. Oh, no, not birds.

And then prime aged steaks, and then they have a, a prime rib, a trolley service prime rib.

Barry Conrad
It's quite a lot of protein, which I love. I'm about this menu.

Melanie Avalon
I... Oh my goodness. I see... Okay, I see one of my favorite. They have one of my favorite seafood options. They have some birds I'm interested in, and they have some steaks I want. So, um, it's a lot.

Maybe we should just go by section. How about, how about you?

Barry Conrad
Let's go by section.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So seafood. Do you know what's my fav- They have, they have, oh, they have my fav- like, one of my all-time favorites, and they have one of my second favorites as well.

Barry Conrad
You like Dover sole, right?

Melanie Avalon
That's my second favorite. I do like Dover sole. It's very light and low mercury, but it's not my favorite.

Barry Conrad
Planked rainbow trout?

Melanie Avalon
Yes. I love rainbow trout, and I especially love it when it's on, like, a plank. Yes. So I want, I want planked rainbow trout for sure.

How about you? Oh, by the way, I thought of you yesterday, and I'm being reminded looking at this menu, but I was at Whole Foods at the seafood section, and I was like, "I really should get, like, a lobster tail," and I didn't. I don't know why. I should. I, I don't know how to cook them.

Barry Conrad
You know how you say that y- instead of treating yourself with-

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, the full fish.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, do, like, a lob- yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I'll, I can do, like, a lobster tail. I could get, like, drawn butter, like, all the things.

Barry Conrad
And you can send me a photo. I'd... Th- that'd be an experience.

Melanie Avalon
I'm really intrigued by how they're not that expensive at the seafood counter. I feel like it's something where, like, compared to, for example, like, if you get, like, a filet at the meat counter, it's, like, really expensive.

It's like, it's pretty much like what, almost what you would pay at a restaurant. But the lobster tails, I think it was, like, $7 for, like, a lobster tail. When you go to, like, a restaurant, a lobster tail is, like, way more than that.

Barry Conrad
The mock-up's real.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, sorry to go out on a tangent. What would you get?

Barry Conrad
I would do the lobster a la Newburg.

Melanie Avalon
I knew it. And what does that mean, a la Newburg?

Barry Conrad
I think it's maybe from a, a, like a, I guess, a part, like a la Newburg, maybe it's just, like, an area.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, it's not a style?

Barry Conrad
I'm guessing so. That's my understanding of it.

Melanie Avalon
No, it's a style.

Barry Conrad
It is?

Melanie Avalon
So it's a ultra-rich American seafood classic made with lobster, butter, heavy cream, cognac, sherry, and eggs, gently seasoned with cayenne pepper, traditionally served over buttered toast points or in a puff pastry.

Barry Conrad
Wow. Well, it sounds very-

Melanie Avalon
That sounds like Barry Conrad.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it does actually. I would do that for sure. What about chops and birds?

Melanie Avalon
Are you gonna get a larded squab?

Barry Conrad
No.

Melanie Avalon
Whole grilled... Oh my goodness, Barry, it's like a non-chicken poultry dish that's in its whole form. This is made for you. What is a squab? I actually don't even know.

Barry Conrad
It's a funny word, squab.

Melanie Avalon
Squab. It is a young... Oh, guess what it is? It's a young, immature domestic pigeon. Oh my goodness, they have a whole baby pigeon. Barry. We're definitely getting that for the table.

Barry Conrad
Okay. I, I will definitely try it, and I'm very open-minded, you know, like the way that, you know, with oysters and other things. So if I try some of that, then-

Melanie Avalon
I try the oysters. You try the larded squab.

Barry Conrad
Deal. That sounds great.

Melanie Avalon
I... Has that phrase ever been said before in the history?

Barry Conrad
That's the soundbite for this whole podcast. There we go.

Melanie Avalon
I try the oysters. You try the larded squab.

Barry Conrad
You know what it actually sounds like? It sounds like a, like a Taylor Swift lyric or something. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon
It does, actually.

Barry Conrad
Which is weird for me to even say, 'cause how would I know that? But just sounds like something you would say that she says.

Melanie Avalon
You like Taylor.

Barry Conrad
I think she's very clever, very, very talented.

Melanie Avalon
How would... How do you feel about hen? Does that, does that make you feel weird? 'Cause they have guinea hen Clayborn.

Barry Conrad
I like the name Clayborn. I, I'm not opposed to trying that for some reason.

Melanie Avalon
What about... What is this? Amish ham steak? Oh, chops and birds. Never mind. Okay. I thought it was just birds. I was like, "What is that?"

Barry Conrad
Ah, triple lamb chops. That's my, that's my... Okay, hold on. I'm gonna do the... I've gotta do the triple lamb chops and a whole grilled young chicken.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Funny that you're like, "Yes, whole grilled young chicken," but not whole grilled larded squab, which is a young pigeon.

Barry Conrad
That name just evokes a different thing for me.

Melanie Avalon
Larded is such an ugly word.

Barry Conrad
And squab. You squab.

Melanie Avalon
I think they should rephrase it to, well, I guess young, young pigeon. Larded m- is... Yeah, the... That's what I thought.

Okay, so it is the pork fat. Okay. Okay, I'm really excited about the chops and birds. That's gonna be my favorite part, I think, of the meal, and then the prime aged steaks.

Barry Conrad
I know exactly what you're gonna get from this if you're gonna get anything.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, you do know, if I were to get one, if I were to get one. But honestly, I feel like I... 'Cause we had tartare earlier, right?

So I got some ste- I got some, like, steak in me. I'm really excited about that trout and the larded squab. So I might, I might not get the steak that I would get, which if I were to get one, it would be?

Barry Conrad
The filet mignon.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Cooked how?

Barry Conrad
Blue.

Melanie Avalon
Yes.

Barry Conrad
I'm just picturing you saying, "Stop treating me like a larded squab."

Melanie Avalon
Larded squab is my new favorite phrase. It needs to be integrated into people's vernacular, like more on the regular.

Don't be a larded squab. I don't think we've ever gotten in a fight, but once we do, this is the first phrase I'm bringing in. Barry, you're being a larded squab.

Barry Conrad
Squab. It's just such a... It's so funny how words can sound anyway.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Are you gonna get a prime aged steak?

Barry Conrad
I think I may do the New York strip. Why not? 'Cause, uh, I'll be able to eat it pretty easily. I can eat steak pretty well.

Melanie Avalon
New York strip is a good cut.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. Medium rare, more on the rare side of the medium rare.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. That's tolerable.

Barry Conrad
Oh, man, that looks really good. That looks very, very good.

Melanie Avalon
This is trolley service, so they're gonna bring it out, like, on a cart.

Barry Conrad
Spit roasted deviled bone. This place is like a protein fest.

Melanie Avalon
I think that can be my, my dessert. I can, I can just, like, eat off the, like, never-ending prime rib.

Barry Conrad
Very yum. Do you want any of the... I imagine it's gonna be no, but do you want any of the sides? There's asparagus, grains and rice, and potatoes.

Melanie Avalon
No. How about you?

Barry Conrad
I think I may pass. Usually I would get potatoes, but I don't like the, I don't like the one, the way they're d- done f- from what I can see. But let's, uh, zoom up to the dessert.

Melanie Avalon
Although I already know. So this is actually a perfect menu for my savory dessert because... So, like, normally with a savory dessert, to make it kinda dessert-esque, it's nice to do, like, a cold thing, so, like, a sashimi or, like, a tartare, but another good option is, like, a very light white fish, and Dover sole was my second choice for the seafood.

So I think I would get Dover sole as dessert 'cause it's, like, not too heavy. It's very light. Yeah

Barry Conrad
Sounds great

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. But how about you for the real dessert menu?

Barry Conrad
I'm actually gonna go for the Neapolitan Baked Alaska.

Melanie Avalon
I've actually never... I don't think I've experienced somebody having a Baked Alaska. Have you?

Barry Conrad
I had it at Delmonico's, Mel, and honestly, it was my first time ever. It was life-changing.

It was so good, and it was so big, and it was just d- I've never had anything like it before. It was so good. Really yum.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I don't... It's weird that I actually haven't seen... Oh, they have two things on fire. Both of their ice creams are on fire, I'm, I'm assuming, 'cause the other one is Cherry Jubilee Flambé, so that's prob- probably on fire, too.

They like fire.

Barry Conrad
Probably is.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Well, yeah, that, that's a good choice. Would you get anything else from the-

Barry Conrad
Dessert menu?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.

Barry Conrad
The Lemon Chiffon sounds interesting. I've been getting into, like, lemony sort of cakes because they're quite... Well, delicate is the wrong word, but they just don't feel heavy.

Like, a bit like a lemon sli- you know, like, you know? That'd be nice.

Melanie Avalon
I have really intense thoughts and feelings about lemon.

Barry Conrad
How?

Melanie Avalon
So I love lemon. I, I add lemon powder, so when I, like, have my scallops every night, I put a lot of lemon powder in it. Like, I love lemon, but I only like it on savory things. When you add lemon to a dessert, I instantly am turned off.

Like, I don't even... And I'm, and, uh, the reason I'm, like, fascinated by it is that I'm so fascinated people, like, like it, that they, like, would choose that as a dessert. I don't know why I don't like it, but as a dessert. I mean, I've had, like, when I was young, like, lemony dessert stuff. I just-

Barry Conrad
It's not overpowering.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I don't, I don't like it. It makes, it makes it, like... It, it takes it from, like, sweet and satiating to, like, crisp and... So actually I might like it more now.

But yeah, lemon dessert's not my thing, but-

Barry Conrad
Not your thing. Fair enough.

Melanie Avalon
But yeah, you can get it.

Barry Conrad
Yep.

Melanie Avalon
Are you gonna get a dessert wine or a vintage whiskey? Oh, wait, there's a bar list separately. Or a cocktail. Are you gonna get a cocktail?

Barry Conrad
I'm gonna get a s- I'm gonna get a cocktail for sure. I'm gonna get The Grille Sour because it, you know, has the name of the place, and I do love a good whiskey sour, so I think The Grille Sour would probably be good. I like a Pisco Sour, so I think The Grille Sour is the one. And then gonna go to a wine, like a bottle of wine. S- that's usually my go-to.

I'll have a cocktail or two and then get a bottle of wine. What about you, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I'm looking at the wine list. I think one of these I actually... I think I've, I've either been to or I think it was on one of the, the restaurants that I worked at. We talked about it, which is the Gerge winery in Napa Valley. I think for this one I would have to look up all of the wines by the glass individually and try to find one that is low alcohol, organic, European. I think I'm probably gonna have to go by the bottle because there are some potential options, but a lot of them are, like, US-based or... Yeah, so probably... But they have a very substantial wine list, so I feel confident that I can find something that I like.

We'll be okay. I won't have to sneak in my wine. Would you, um... Okay, so say we say we had reservations at, like, a really nice restaurant and I looked up the wine list beforehand and realized that there's, like, nothing that I like. Like, how would you feel if I, like, snuck in my wine and, like, ordered wine and then, like, you know, tossed it out and, like, th- refilled it with my own wine? Would you entertain that situation or would you be like, "I'm done"?

Barry Conrad
I would laugh. No, I wouldn't say I'm done.

Like you, do- you do you. I know it's your thing, but it would just be... I would be entertained watching it all unfold and, like, watching you be stealth about it.

Melanie Avalon
You passed the test. Okay, perfect.

Barry Conrad
'Cause I wanna see, I wanna see this in action. See the whole, you know, sneaking in.

Melanie Avalon
All my skills.

Barry Conrad
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
They're really good. I work on them on the regular.

Barry Conrad
That's really funny. And just, like, doing it undercover. That's why you like low lighting as well probably, so it's nice and dim.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Oh, guess what? They have a wine... I can't, I'm not gonna say it out loud, but it's my legal real name.

Barry Conrad
Really?

Melanie Avalon
If I was here with my family they'd be like, "We have to get this wine." My dad he, he wouldn't even, like, blink an eye. He would get that wine for sure, no question asked.

Barry Conrad
Tell me the section.

Melanie Avalon
It's, it's one of the reds. Do you know my last name?

Barry Conrad
N- I, I actually don't.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, whoa. How did we make it this far?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, actually, yeah. I, I thought it was Mel Ellon, no?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, but not.

Barry Conrad
Save that for the call.

Melanie Avalon
So this is actually up there for restaurants that I wanna go to, like actually. And I d- so when you first showed it to me I was like, "It looks nice." But now based on the menu, yes. I mean, the larded squab alone, I'm in.

The trout.

Barry Conrad
I can't get over the larded squab. Just the way you say it as well, it's very funny.

Melanie Avalon
The larded squab. We can't forget this.

We need to s- we n- we need to make sure that we use it, you know, multiple times tonight, and then, like, tomorrow as well. Like, we wanna keep it in the vocabulary. We can't lose it is the point. It's such a great phrase.

Barry Conrad
Imagine if you were in a boardroom meeting and you're presenting something and I'm just, "And you don't want people treating you like a larded squab out there in the marketplace when you're doing..."

Melanie Avalon
I'm gonna use this. Like, this is part of my, my speech. So yeah.

So thank you friends for still being here. And by the way I, I, I don't know if you saw it, but I did a poll recently on Facebook and I was asking people, like, what parts of the show do they like best. Like the... Did you see that, that poll?

Barry Conrad
No.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so this is interesting 'cause I, I would've thought... I was like people are not gonna like the restaurant section 'cause I feel like it's just, like, me and you having fun. But actually, like, a, a substantial part of... So I, it was like, I was like the listener questions, the studies, the, the casual random banter, and the, the, this part.

And, like, a g- a good portion... It was actually kinda evenly, not evenly split, but all of them had They're the people who liked it the most, so that, that's promising. But yeah, a substantial amount of people, thank you guys who are still here listening right now, like this part of the show, so yay.

Barry Conrad
Thank you so much, guys. I'm so glad you like it.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you. Um, do you wanna know what the, the favorite, the crowd favorite was? It- I would not have predicted this. So between studies, listener questions, banter, and restaurants.

Barry Conrad
Hmm. Tell me.

Melanie Avalon
Guess.

Barry Conrad
Listener questions?

Melanie Avalon
That's what I would've thought. No.

Barry Conrad
Studies?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.

Barry Conrad
Wow, okay.

Melanie Avalon
I know, right?

Barry Conrad
Yes, I know, right, 'cause it's just like, not that we don't enjoy it. Of course we, we enjoyed taking a deep dive, but we thought, like-

Melanie Avalon
I thought people might get a little bored by it, but apparently people like it.

Barry Conrad
That's so good. And also, guys, like guys and girls and everyone out there, we try our best to make it as interesting for you as we can and not boring, because we really love it, but thank you so- we're glad that you enjoy it, really.

That's surprising. That's good.

Melanie Avalon
And the good thing about right now, like the very end of the episode, I feel like the, the people who are still listening are the people who are, like, with us, so we love you guys. Thanks for being here.

Yeah, but on that note, again, thank you guys so much. If you would like to submit your own listener questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode488, and you can get all of the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike, and you can follow us on Instagram. We are IFPodcast. I am MelanieAvalon. Barry is Barry_Conrad. And then last thing before we go, Barry, we need to start planning episode 500.

Barry Conrad
Oh, wow, it's coming up real soon, and we need to make it a moment. It's coming up.

Melanie Avalon
We should talk about that after this. But, um, anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad
Just to say that I'm so grateful once again that you've tuned in to our show, and we can't wait to catch you next time.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Talk to you next week.

Barry Conrad
Talk to you next week. Bye.

Melanie Avalon
Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joiner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

See you next week.