Welcome to Episode 491 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.
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TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 491 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm joined by my co-host, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out melanieavalon.com and barryconradofficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions@ifpodcast.com or by going to ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you.
Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 491 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?
Barry Conrad
Melanie, I'm doing so great. How's it going? Hope you're having an awesome week.
It is so much cooler here, which is so great, 'cause it's been really... I don't know about Atlanta, but it's been so hot in New York. Seriously.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's still hot here.
Barry Conrad
Yeah. It's been really, really good.
I've been listening to Jason Fung, Fung's new audiobook, actually, The Hunger Code. It's been awesome. Like, you've, you've had him, you've interviewed him before, so you know, um, all about it. But it's so fascinating. Like, seriously, I'm getting all these, like, mind-blowing moments right now. I'm not even halfway through yet, but it's, it's awesome.
Melanie Avalon
He is actually the episode wh- like, while we are recording, he's the episode. 'Cause I meant to post about it in the Facebook group.
It's this week's episode. So yeah, if listeners listen to episode... Let's see, what number it is.
Barry Conrad
Yeah, it is this one. That's why, what prompted me to start listening.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, yay. So yeah, listeners, check out episode 481 of this show, and that is with Jason Fung for The Hunger Code.
And we were saying this last time, but after Barry finishes the book, we should definitely have you interview him, 'cause I feel like people love him on the show. I mean, he's like the fasting OG, so.
Barry Conrad
He's the fasting OG. Like, I think the ma- one of the main things that stood out to me so far is the concept of the three types of hunger. I'd never heard it put that way before, ever.
Like, just the physical hunger, the emotional hunger, the social hunger, and it's like when you think about it, how often do we eat because we're actually hungry versus because it's Friday night versus someone brought us donuts with funfetti cake, you know? Or we're stressed. It's just so crazy.
Melanie Avalon
Right, yeah, 'cause it was that... So the physical was, like, we actually need food, right? And then emotional was, like, feelings and emotions, and then environmental.
I was-- I don't know the exact terminology he used. But the environmental was like, it's like the time, right?
Barry Conrad
The social hunger, yeah. Being around, like, an environment. And we've talked about this as well, right? We talked about environmental, not pressure, but how we're kind of-- it's kind of hard to avoid, isn't it?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Well, un- unless you're really religiously sticking to your your window. I'm just thinking about, I guess when I eat every night in my one meal a day, I... it's definitely physical hunger. Honestly, it's emotional hunger too, in a way, because I, I don't know, it, it's, it's feeding that part of me, but I'm not doing it out of, like, the emotions only.
And then it is the environment, 'cause that's the way I've set it up, that I eat every time at dinner, but it's not, like, social.
Barry Conrad
I think one of-- I think, I think I was still in Australia when we had this episode, but you talked about a study or findings around, and correct me if I'm wrong, around, um, you know, just, like, the pressure you feel socially to eat and whatnot, like when you're intermittent fasting and it's, it ties into the whole social hunger thing. You're around people, and it can really... Or even, like, um, more recently actually, when you were talking about who's behind you or who's in front of you in a line ordering something.
You remember that? Like the whole s- yeah, it's so fascinating to me.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. That study was really interesting, the one about the, like, the cafeteria, and I'm trying to remember all of the takeaways.
I'm trying to remember if people... Were people more influenced by their friends or something?
Barry Conrad
Younger people in general are more influenced by the people ahead of them ordering things. There was a thing.
There wasn't, from what I remember, a difference in people ordering different drinks. Remember that? Like the beverages?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Yeah, that was so interesting.
Barry Conrad
And also the fat thermostat analogy, I think as well. I'd never heard it put like this before.
He was like, "Just like your house sort of is, like, trying to stay at a certain temperature, your body can defend, like, a certain weight." That's... He, he's so good at explaining, communicating what he's trying to illustrate.
Melanie Avalon
He's definit- and he's definitely, he's very much that it's all, like, it's all hormones driving it rather than calories, like the, the weight gain problem. I feel like I'm more in the-- I feel like I'm more like it's the calories and the hormones.
I feel like some people are like it's all calories, some people are like it's... Actually, this is gonna relate to the, this is gonna relate to the study I'm gonna talk about. That's crazy. I feel like some people think it's, like, all calories, some people think it's, like, calories and hormones, and some people think it's, like, all hormones, and he's definitely says thinks it's, like, all hormones driving, like, hunger and everything. You'll have to keep us updated and definitely have to interview him.
Barry Conrad
And how about you? How's your week? How's, what's happening with you?
Melanie Avalon
It is good. I'm finally, like, I know I've been talking about it for years, years at this point, but, um, I'm hardcore- Been working on the dating app that we're working on, and so we're about to start our venture capital raise, and I'm really scared. But that's fine.
I'm really excited. I really think it's gonna become the next-- the world's next top dating app. I really, really, like, I really genuinely believe that. So we shall see. Fingers crossed.
Can you imagine, Barry, like, if it does? Like, I was-
Barry Conrad
No
Melanie Avalon
... 'cause I was talking to my friend about this the other day, I was like, "If, if this does become that, think about the connections I will have to, like, all the restaurants."
Barry Conrad
Yes, definitely.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, my goodness. 'Cause a lot of it will do, like, has to do with, like, restaurant partnerships and stuff.
But yeah, we were gonna launch originally, I think, in Austin or LA, but now we're gonna launch in Atlanta, so I'm very excited. Atlanta's apparently the number one city for singles.
Barry Conrad
Really?
Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. According to Wallethub 2025, 70% of the population is single, and it has a higher socioeconomic status.
It's rapidly growing, and it has a, yeah, I guess a dating scene. So come to Atlanta if you're single.
Barry Conrad
Is that the vibe that you feel like when you're out and about? Does it-- Is that in the energy of it? Do you feel it in the air?
Melanie Avalon
You know, that's so interesting. Y-y-- Depending on where I am, yeah. Yeah, kind of. Yes.
Barry Conrad
Like, you see more sing- sm- feels more single vibes, people kind of getting amongst it, rather than maybe existing couples or families and whatnot?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Yeah, probably, honestly.
Um, I'm trying to think, like, the most recent thing I went to. I mean, when I go to, like, theater and stuff, maybe not so much, but if I'm going to, like, bars or, you know, places like that, yeah.
Barry Conrad
Wow. Well, I kind of want to come... Uh, ch-- It's happening. I've-- We've been saying this. It's gonna happen, so.
Melanie Avalon
So friends, this is why, this is why you need this dating app, right, friends? And this is why you need to support it because we're starting in Atlanta, but then we obviously wanna go nationwide.
It's called Craving. Go to cravingdating.com to get on the email list. But you will be able-- It's gonna be like Hinge, basically, if people have been on that. It's gonna be like your ma- normal mainstream dating app. But you will be able to filter by dietary preference and intermittent fasting preference. So if you're keto or vegan or paleo or gluten-free or organic, or you eat all the things, or you're a foodie, or you love wi- and, like, drinks too. So, like, you love wine, or you're sober curious, and then you can also, like, filter by, like, you're an intermittent faster. And so then that's one thing. And it's not like the whole thing is that. So it's not like I have to date somebody who's keto. It's just that it's an additional thing that you can add to your profile. And then on top of that, you'll be able to find restaurants that fit your dietary preferences. So you'll be able to search like, "I n- I want a paleo-friendly restaurant," or, "I want a gluten-free friendly..." And then we also ultimately wanna have, like, restaurant partnerships where you get, like, you know, like, incentives to go to restaurants, and it's-- I really think it's a no-brainer because the, the dating industry-- Can you tell I've been working on the deck, like, all week? The dating industry is a $10 billion industry. The restaurant industry is a multi-trillion dollar industry, so kind of shocking that there's not an app yet that combines the dual revenue stream potential there. So I'm gonna do it. Say prayers.
Barry Conrad
I think that's awesome. I think it's awesome, Mel.
And honestly, like, you're so tenacious, and I love that you're right in terms of it's surprising no one's done it before. So good thing you're the first to do it. So watch out, everyone.
Melanie Avalon
And the top four first dates all involve food or drink. Do, did we talk about this?
Barry Conrad
No. Tell me, actually, tell me what the top four states are.
Melanie Avalon
According to a 2023 study of 2,000 actively dating Americans, the top four first dates all involve food or drink. So number one, what... Do you wanna guess, like, the date situation?
Barry Conrad
Well, definitely, like a, like a bar, like, you know?
Melanie Avalon
That's number two, drinks.
Barry Conrad
A restaurant? Dinner?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Number one's dinner, restaurant. Number two is drinks.
Barry Conrad
Going to, like, a show?
Melanie Avalon
No.
Barry Conrad
A picnic?
Melanie Avalon
Oh my God. Okay, you know what's so funny?
Okay, I'm so happy right now that you said that because that is number four, and I don't, I didn't believe it. I like-- I, I'm like, "Who goes on a picnic?" And I'm like, "This study sounds fake 'cause who goes on a picnic?" But you just suggested it, so apparently, apparently people do go on picnics.
Barry Conrad
It's, of course. Well, pic- a picnic's a great thing.
Well, okay, let, okay, let's zoom out, Mel. Okay, Mel, okay, everyone knows if you've been listening to this long, long enough, Melody Ellen is not a creature of the morning or the day. So a picnic is usually earlier rather than, like, nighttime, so.
Melanie Avalon
A picnic sounds so comf-- Although one of the things... So one of the other great revenue opportunities with this app is we wanna do, like, brand collaborations as well. So, like, we were thinking we could do, like, partner with Instacart and have, like, a, a Craving picnic bundle, you know, where they, like, bring you everything you need for the picnic.
Or we could do, like, Green Chef, and it'd be like a Green Chef Craving date night. Um, but yeah, no, picnics, it just sounds like... Okay, it's literally every... Oh my God. It's like describe your worst first date. It would be like, okay, outside, yes. Eating during the day, yes. Having to, like, set up this whole food situation. I just, I'm out.
Barry Conrad
I would love that actually. I, I like, it's very, like, almost like you're going camping. Like, you have, like, a spread. It's... I don't know. I like it a lot.
Melanie Avalon
I've never been on a picnic date. Have you been on a picnic date?
Barry Conrad
Yes.
Melanie Avalon
What do you eat?
Barry Conrad
Well, you, well, you definitely have some fruit. You have s- You have some, like, cheese. You can have cheese and wine, like a bit of a, like a charcuterie type thing. It's definitely wine or some sparkling, definitely some sandwiches or something like that. But it's, it's, it's more light bites rather than, like, a full-on meal.
And it's really nice. You have, like, a nice little blanket there, like a picnic basket, and you're just sitting there. Take your shoes off, sit in the grass or the sand, and just, like, look at the usually a nice view somewhere. It's great.
Melanie Avalon
It's so funny. Element just sent me a, a Element picnic blanket, and I was like "Thank you."
Barry Conrad
It's a sign. You should go on a picnic. Honestly, do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. Do it. You have to do it for the app. You have to, you have to do it.
Melanie Avalon
I don't think so.
Barry Conrad
Maybe we should do that, like, as a, when I come and visit.
Melanie Avalon
Me and you go on a picnic date? Yeah, no. Can you imagine?
Barry Conrad
You'll be, first of all, grumpy 'cause you're waking up too early, have massive shades on so I can't see your eyes. You'll be like-
Melanie Avalon
Let me tell you how I would do a picnic date. I just said that without any idea in my head, so let me think.
It needs to be... I c- I also don't like grass, Barry. Remember last talk- last episode talking about sauvignon blanc and the grassy tones? I'm severely allergic to g- to grass.
Barry Conrad
Okay, if you're allergic, it's not gonna work. But what if it's, like, sand, like a beach or something?
Melanie Avalon
Okay. Maybe a beach picnic in LA at night with wine.
Barry Conrad
At night? Okay, well, it still counts as a picnic.
Melanie Avalon
But then it's, like, all sandy.
Barry Conrad
Also, hold on. W- what is number three? 'Cause that was number four.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, yeah. What's number three?
Barry Conrad
It's not a show. It can't be a party. A party's too collective. It can't be.
Melanie Avalon
And that's not eating and food. I can give you a big hint if you want a hint. It relates to one of my brands.
Barry Conrad
Oh, like a, a coffee. Coffee date.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Coffee.
Barry Conrad
Like a cafe. Well, I think, you know, it's so funny to me because I kinda feel like, I don't know, maybe unpopular opinion, I just think, like, coffee, a coffee date I think is just so one and the same as, like, if you're, for example, meeting a, someone off LinkedIn or, like, someone that you wanna network with or meet or a friend, like a coffee date.
It doesn't... You know what I mean? Like, it just seems... It doesn't seem, it doesn't seem special. I don't know, maybe-
Melanie Avalon
It seems like an, it seems like an interview is what it seems like.
Barry Conrad
Yeah. It doesn't seem prom- I don't know.
Melanie Avalon
It's too, for me, and I support it, and this is why, again, you should get Craving, 'cause if you like coffee dates, this is the place for you. It feels l- like too high pressure, like, too, like, yeah, like interview-y.
Like, 'cause you're just gonna, like, sit and drink coffee and, like, what?
Barry Conrad
Okay, this is my version of a coffee date. Grab a takeaway coffee and go for a walk in a park.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, gosh.
Barry Conrad
Well, like go for a walk because then you're, like, also it's, like, been proven, I, I'm not gonna get the science right, but it's way less pressure when you're being active and doing something like movement or walking rather than sitting face to face. It just makes it a bit more relaxed as well.
Melanie Avalon
Like, less aw- yeah. Like, yeah. You know, that, that's true. That's true.
Especially 'cause, like, like at dinner you... There's, like, the menu and the table and, like, uh, stuff to look at and, like, peop- And then with drinks you just got drinks, so, like, it's chill. But, like, coffee, you're just, like, awkwardly sitting there with coffee.
Barry Conrad
Also, hold on. Okay, now that we're on this topic, what is your preferred one of those numbers as a first date? Because I think, like, dinner, based on, like, just some of my friends and stuff, that's not always the go-to first preferable date because it's so... I don't know. Ca- depending on where it is in the setting, it can kinda maybe feel like a lot of high stakes. Do you know what I mean?
Depending on the vibe and the-
Melanie Avalon
I actually talk about this in slide two of our deck.
Barry Conrad
Really?
Melanie Avalon
Uh-huh. What is the problem? And I talk about how when people have, you know, specific dietary choices, it can be really awkward sometimes to explain, you know, your eating preferences and your windows, and you don't wanna seem picky or high maintenance or all the things. So I literally, like, with- for dating, I will not go to a dinner on the first date. I will not.
I only get drinks. Only. Like, they can get food if they want, but I don't wanna have to deal about... I don't wanna have to explain my weirdness with my, like, eating window and what I eat and everything, so I just get drinks.
Barry Conrad
I'm glad that we're kind of on the same... It's, it's, it's hard 'cause it's not, like, a all, like, hard and fast rule, but I just feel like a dinner is a first thing after, say, meeting someone maybe either on a app or at a bar. It's high stakes and maybe a bit serious to me.
I think maybe, like, getting a drink maybe at a place that has, like, bar food, sure, that's, like, casual still. But, like, a sit-down dinner, it's very, I don't know, it's a lot to me.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And I, I completely wanna encourage it 'cause I'm building an entire app around it, so keep doing it. Don't listen to me.
The reason though I don't like it is two things. One, you're, now you're committed to an entire dinner, so drinks it's easier to, like, just leave. Like, drinks you can leave any time. You can literally leave at any time. Dinner, if you leave halfway through, it's, it's... You, you can't just leave halfway through without it being like, "Oh, I don't like you" or, "I don't wanna be here." I mean, I've definitely been the friend to, like, you know, the friend goes on a dinner date for a first date, and then they're like, they're like, they text me a code word, and then I call them. And I'm like, "Can you come get me?" And then they're like, "I have to go. My friend needs me." Also can be a, a lot, like, depe- depending on, depending on where you're going, it could be, like, expensive for a first date.
Barry Conrad
But that's also what my, the context of it, like, okay, where are you going for dinner? And this is another thing. What if you grab a bite?
This is another thing. Like, let's grab a bite at this place, and then go... I don't know. It just depends where it is, like, the vibe. Like, if you grab a bite and, like, go for a walk, grab a bite and, like, have a pic- I don't know, rather than sit down at a restaurant, which I think is maybe a bit late. One or two dates later maybe, you know.
Melanie Avalon
Which also, so something else about Craving, you don't have to be even, like, looking for somebody new. You can continue to use the app to find restaurants for dates.
So we're gonna, since we're gonna have an entire restaurant catalog, it's also gonna have, like, the dating vibes. 'Cause something I really wanna know when I am looking up restaurants for dates is, like, what is the lighting? What is the vibe? You know, where is a good place to go? So...
Barry Conrad
Mel, you would've loved the lighting that I had today. It was just, like, really nice lighting. You would've really liked it.
Melanie Avalon
Dark?
Barry Conrad
Dark, but not overhead, like some nice lights just facing, you know. Well, I'm, I'm so excited. I'm so happy for you, Mel. It's awesome.
Melanie Avalon
Thank you. So friends, go to cravingdating.com for updates and stay tuned. Okay. Shall we talk about the study that I was mentioning?
Barry Conrad
Let's do it.
Melanie Avalon
And I realized this wasn't an actual study, but it's very famous. It was a self-conducted experiment, and I think people, a lot of people have probably heard of it, but I wanted to deconstruct it.
It's the Twinkie diet study. Do you remember this? Do you remember when this happened?
Barry Conrad
I actually have heard of this, but I need my memory jogged for this.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So it was 2010. It was a professor, Mark Haub, at Kansas State University, and CNN covered it. So I'll put a link to the, um, the CNN article, which was "Twinkie diet helps nutrition professor lose 27 pounds." And there... A lot of people covered it, but I will put a link to that.
So... And I, I'm gonna say, like, what actually happened, 'cause when people heard that, they thought he literally just ate Twinkies And lost all that weight. That's actually not the case. But what he actually did was every... And, and, and let me... Before this, let me tell you what he was testing. So what he was testing was, is, and this relates to what I was just saying about is it all calories or not? He was testing is weight loss literally just calories or does it also have to do with food quality? So like if you have a calorie deficit and it's really crappy food, like really bad food quality, can you lose weight? So he was challenging the idea that calories don't matter. And so what he did was every three hours he had a small snack, and it was a mix of things. So he had a junk component, which they all talked about in the headlines. So it was things like Twinkies, Little Debbies, like Star Crunch, Oreos, sugary cereal, Kellogg's, Corn Pops, Doritos. He had Cool Ranch. Then he also did add, and this is what they don't normally cover in the studies, but he did add a protein shake daily. He added vegetables like baby carrots, green beans, broccoli. He a- he added a multivitamin. It was Centrum Advanced Formula. He had 2% or, or whole milk, and he also had Diet Mountain Dew and espresso. So it sounds to me like he, you know, wanted to test like eating mostly junk, but he also didn't wanna do a horrible number on his health, so personal touch.
So apparently he ate vegetables in front of his kids at the dinner table when he was doing it, but he unwrapped the snack cakes away from them so as not to set a bad example. So the metrics. So before he, he was probably eating... The daily calories was probably 2,600. During it, it was 1,800, so that's a deficit of eight- around 800 calories a day and, like I said, he did it for 10 weeks. And the results were he lost 27 pounds, his BMI went from 28.8, which was overweight, to 24.9, which is normal. His body fat went from 33.4% down to 24.9%. His labs, his LDL, quote, "bad cholesterol," although it's more nuanced than that, but that went down by 20%. His good cholesterol, HDL, went up by 20%, around 20%. His triglycerides, which we really wanna lower those, those went down by around 39%, and his blood glucose improved. And a direct quote from him is he called the lab results, quote, "head scratching" and that he wasn't quite sure what to make of them.
He didn't know whether it meant he was healthier or whether it revealed a gap in how we define health from a biology standpoint. So yeah, so basically I just feel like there's so much to talk about here. Again, this is just one person. It was a short duration. There wasn't a control group. That said, I think it's fascinating 'cause, you know, he literally ate a diet that... Well, I mean, let me just say it again.
Melanie Avalon
So it was Twinkies, Little Debbies, Oreos, sugary cer- cereal, Do- Doritos, but it was at a s- very significant calorie deficit and yeah, he lost weight, his cholesterol improved, his body fat improved, his blood sugar improved.
What are your thoughts, Barry?
Barry Conrad
You know, this, first of all, awesome study and it, it did tie into what we were talking about before about Jason Fung's new book. I don't think it's all hormones. I don't think it's all calories. I think it's somewhere in the middle. I, I also think a lot of it has to do with food addiction. Anyway, that aside, with this study I can see how this could happen.
I mean, I do see various fitness influce- influencers or whatnot posting about stop listening to people, like you can have ice cream and still lose weight and whatnot. What I don't love about that precedent is it, you know, for people who do have an addiction to food it still gives them a, like a get out of jail free card to eat it which leads to more addiction. But at the same time for people who don't have an addiction to it, to those foods emotionally or whatnot, that they could have those things and lose weight if they do that. But just like I'm just not, I'm just not on the train of generally speaking of counting the calories and trying to do that at whatever cost possible. I'd rather just eat whole foods and enjoy the thing. Uh, just very much like you, like I'll eat lots and lots of meat, lots and lots of chicken, whole foods, you know? Like and not count the calories rather than trying to squeeze as much as out as I can just to lose a pound or whatever. It's hard 'cause I, I get it and also I wouldn't advocate for it. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense? 'Cause I think because of my old diet, diet plan because I had a eating disorder in my late teens, early 20s, I just... I don't know. Something about it doesn't feel right, but I also understand that you can't demonize food. There's no bad or good food. F- it's just whatever you put in your body. There's better choices, but you can't demonize food.
Melanie Avalon
I have a lot of thoughts. So I don't ever wanna demonize food. I don't wanna add morality to food. Like eating a certain food does not make you a good or bad person period. I mean, in my opinion. This is all my opinion. Yeah, there... I don't think there's anything m- like moral, moral about it. I do think objectively, and again this is just my opinion, but from my perspective I think there are f- things we call, quote, "food" and I just don't consider them food. So and, and the way... And, and that they are not natural food sources from the earth. They're like concocted chemical things. Like they're things that present energy to our body, but they're not... Yeah, they're not real. So it's like I, I in that way I feel like they're, quote, "bad" because they're not actual food.
But so that aside, I have so many thoughts. Okay. I think it is really fascinating. So weight loss aside, it, it's not surprising to me that going on a calorie deficit, whatever it's made of, that if you do that and you don't, and you don't break from it that you lose weight. Like I... And I, and I... The-- Like you were saying, I, I do think it's calories and hormones 'cause I think people who will say it's all... Pe- a lot of people who think it's all hormones will say that If you just eat certain foods that are spiking your insulin and locking you out of fat burning, you're not gonna lose weight. But clearly that's not the case because he's, he was eating all this stuff and he did objectively lose weight, like period. I think the fascinating thing is that his health biomarkers improved. And so it's like, what do we, what do we take from that? Like his blood sugar got better, his cholesterol got better, and I think it really speaks to the fact that one of the main problems about our modern diet isn't even the quality of it, it's the just the energy excess. Like we're eating too much, and so many of these problems that we have in our biomarkers and our health, our cholesterol, our waking blood pressure, a lot of it's just from too much energy in our body, and our bodies just can't handle it, and everything just goes haywire and like the system just breaks. And, and so if you have a calorie deficit and you like stick to it and you lose weight and you're not in energy excess, you can actually-- not only can you get away with eating some not good food, you can actually, quote, "improve your health," which is wild to think about.
So I do think-- like I don't think it's all hormones. I do think that a, a person could like still keep eating, kinda like the three hungers you were talking about. So say that you are eating a diet, like a keto diet, and it's regulating your hormones and you don't have any physical hunger. You could still keep eating out of emotional hunger, and I think you could still either not lose weight or gain weight, and you would be eating all the correct foods. So I think what it comes down to in, in the end is how can you choose the foods that like we, we talked about with the th- with the hungers, that satisfy all your hungers.
Melanie Avalon
Like you have to like orchestrate it for you in a way that keeps you either at maintenance or at a calorie deficit. And so, you know, if that's choosing between, and this is like a false dichotomy that's not really existing, but if that's choosing between eating at a calorie deficit but including Twinkies or overeating but not including Twinkies-- and maybe I'll make it, maybe it m- I'll make it more like eating all-- let's say it's eating healthy foods, but you're just overeating and gaining weight.
I mean, not again, I don't have to make, I don't have to make this decision 'cause it's not like a, a decision forced upon anybody. But I do think erring on the side of not overeating is really important.
Barry Conrad
Of course. I mean, you-- Mel, it's, it's so interesting you said like, I mean, his, his BMI went down, his body fat, fat went down, his LDL went down. His like-
Melanie Avalon
His triglycerides
Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's like it's actually very interesting. And like, uh, for example, I was talking to this actress Natalie Lopez, and she was saying, the one that said that she does IF, she said, "I don't keep any ultra-processed stuff in the house, but when I'm out, I will eat whatever I want. But I think the main thing is we just eat too much." And it's exactly what you're saying.
It's like just too much energy. But she doesn't-- but b- at home, like on the daily, whole foods and stuff. When you're out, eat as you will, but in general, I just think people just eat too much. That's, that's the problem.
Melanie Avalon
I, and I do too. And I think, and a lot of that, though, is because of the hormonal stuff. Like the foods that we are eating are encour- are they're messing with our hormones and encouraging us to eat more. So that's why it's both. Like it's, it's always both.
Barry Conrad
So hold on. So does that mean then, for example, for someone like that who, okay, if you were at home and you ate, you fasted a moderate, you know, intermittent fasting protocol, and then you had whole foods at home and you, quote unquote, "ate whatever you want" in a way that wasn't in excess outside of the house, that it wouldn't impact your health really because it didn't really... You didn't really need it.
You just had it if you wanted it. Like would that... You know, you know what I'm trying to say? Would that be okay then for someone who they can't have, quote unquote, quote unquote, "bad food" outside their house because it would just send them into a spiral and they can't stop eating? If someone can moderate what they're eating outside of home now and then, it's totally fine, I guess, rather than someone who... Yeah, I don't know.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I mean, and you also have to con- take into account because I, I mean, I don't know if he didn't have any... I do think like with a lot of people, there are ingredients in food that are gonna create a very inflammatory response. So like glu- gluten, a lot of people react. Like that's why I have my app Food Sense Guide 'cause people react to like nightshades or lectins or like... So I, I think there could be compounds that-- and like toxic endocrine disruptors and things like that and, you know. But here's something interesting 'cause we talk about those get stored in fat, but then if you're not actually like gaining fat 'cause you're at a deficit, then it's like may- at least there's not that happening where it's getting stored in your body. But your body is still having to-- like your liver is having to process those toxin- toxins, and we're exposed to so many environmental toxins today that I think anything we can, like anything we can do to like clean up what we're eating so that we're not having to process all these toxins I think is gonna benefit our health.
Uh, but I get what you're saying. It's like maybe people can like, quote, "get away with" if they can create a system where it's they're not gonna be overeating. Like, like your friend, she only has it when she goes out, and then it's kind of like self-controlled in a way 'cause you can't stay at the restaurant forever, you know? And you're not-- I mean, I guess you could keep ordering forever, but it's kind of like self-contained. Yeah, that's why I just like finding the system where you put up the guardrails that work for you, so then you can eat food, enjoy it in the way that you want to, while it keeping you at maintenance or at a calorie deficit.
Barry Conrad
So again, okay, you going to the, the calorie deficit, like saying that because we-- I mean, clearly this, this what-- not a study, but this article is saying he lost twelve point two kgs, twenty-seven pounds. That's over ten weeks. That's quite a bit.
I mean, that's, that's... For like, for Twinkies, that's not something you'd expect. So I guess that then begs to say, what do you say to the average person who says, "Well, if they hear that you fast, well, it's just about calories. Why are you fasting for? You just need to eat less calories." Then it goes back to that whole argument, you know?
Melanie Avalon
The good thing about fasting, 'cause like if people say that, I'm like, w- because fasting literally makes it easy for you to be at a calorie deficit when normally it's difficult . You know? So it's like, yeah, maybe it is the calories, but with fasting it becomes a really implementable thing to do. 'Cause you find the window that works for you, you're, you finally get to eat and feel full, and then, and then you're not eating all the rest of the time, so you might, you end up either being at maintenance or at a deficit. So it makes it easy.
Easy. Yeah, I mean, to me it makes it easy.
Barry Conrad
Yeah, so many thoughts. This is just a very never ending conversation about the chicken or the egg, you know?
Melanie Avalon
I know, yes. Would you do it? Would you do a Twinkie study?
Barry Conrad
I'm all, you know, I'm all game for trying these kinds of things. I think it'd be interesting 'cause I, I used to joke that I'd gain weight and then go on like the Biggest Loser. This was like way back in the day as like, as a joke. Like, I'd probably gain weight, go on the Biggest Loser and lose all the weight and prove I could do it.
But a Twinkie diet? I don't know. I mean, I probably wouldn't feel great, but I'd be interested to see what the findings would be.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I'd be interested.
Barry Conrad
Yeah. Like the Subway guy. Remember the Subway sandwich guy? Is that the same sort of a thing?
Melanie Avalon
Did he do something similar?
Barry Conrad
He just ate like Subway sandwiches or something or?
Melanie Avalon
And did he lose weight?
Barry Conrad
I think s- yeah, there was a commercial going around and he like held up his bigger pants to his smaller body kind of thing. I think it was something similar.
Melanie Avalon
It's kind of like also, it's like you can restrict what you're eating or the amount or the time. So like, and then any of those will probably make you in a calorie deficit.
So if you restrict the time with fasting, much easier to be in a calorie deficit. If you restrict what you're eating, so like, it's like the guy you like only eat potatoes. Like if you only eat one food or like only eat meat, it's hard to like overeat that. Or, or like low-- people would also say like doing low carb and stuff. And then the just straight up calories, like where you just count calories. I do think, I do think 100% it's about calories in, calories out, it's just that we don't know, we don't control, we don't control the calories out. So we, we put in our XYZ amount of calories, but that isn't s- that says nothing about how much our metabolism actually burns of it, like how, how the microbiome interacts with it, how much we burn off from non-exercise activity thermogenesis just naturally. Like we don't control that at all, so we can't... It's really hard to control it with calories 'cause we don't control how much ends up coming out.
And I think, I know Dr. Funt talks about it in his book. I don't know, have, have you gotten to that part yet?
Barry Conrad
Which part?
Melanie Avalon
The part about that we can't control out, calories out.
Barry Conrad
Not yet. But even in terms of the, we talked about this before, in ter- even in terms of the literal values of like this is the exact amount of calories right now that you are burning on this, this, uh, Peloton or this treadmill or whatever. Like how do we really know that? We actually don't.
So that's why it's so interesting. We don't know. It'd be so interesting to actually have some sort of a, and I don't know if this exists or in any way, where individually we'll step on the same device or look at the same device or whatnot, and it'll tell different people different things about what they... Even though it's the same thing, same, same device, it'll tell your individual expenditure, your individual way your body processes food, and how, how the energy is dispersed. I just think it'd be very different to what we actually think. Like personally as well, I think it'd be very different to what I actually think too.
Melanie Avalon
I wonder if we'll like ever have something in the future that accurately can do stuff like that. Probably. Maybe.
Barry Conrad
'Cause yeah. That's why I, I said to you before, I like to overestimate things 'cause I just don't n-necessarily trust the exact numbers that things arrive to on packages or overestimate the calories rather than underestimate them.
Melanie Avalon
Yes.
Barry Conrad
Such a good study.
Melanie Avalon
Okay. Shall we jump into some listener questions?
Barry Conrad
Let's do it.
Melanie Avalon
So we have a question from Catherine. The subject is two meals, question mark. And Catherine says, "I usually finish my 16 hour fast about 12:00 PM. I usually eat a nice lunch, maybe a green veggie juice or vegetables with an avocado, maybe with an RX bar, not often. I also have dinner with my family about 5:00. You always talk about one meal. Technically, I am eating two meals. Is this acceptable? I'm only about two weeks into this new life and habit of IF. Excited to hear your response and I love your podcast.
I also love wine and paleo eating. You both inspire me." Okay, Catherine, what are your thoughts?
Barry Conrad
Catherine, well, I had to laugh at the one meal 'cause you know what I'm thinking there, Mel, but welcome to the fasting community. It's awesome.
I love that you described it as your new, you know, your, your habit and your new love. That's exactly how we want, you know, we hope people will come to see IF as, and it's not as like another diet they have to just get by, but like a lifestyle. And you're only two weeks in, Catherine, which is super exciting because you are still in that phase where you're learning and being a sponge and seeing what works for, for you. So I wanna encourage you, first of all, not to overcomplicate anything just yet. Like to jump to your question, 'cause I think it's, it's one, it's one that a lot of listeners have and people wonder about. You asked whether eating two meals instead of one is a, quote unquote, "acceptable." My answer is an empathetic yes. Isn't, it's not acceptable or unacceptable. One of the biggest misconceptions about intermittent fasting is that it's this synonymous, you know, one meal a day or OMAD concept. It's not that. You don't, you don't have to do that or to like adhere to that, stick to it, you know, follow that as a religion in any way. It's just one option, one version, one protocol. So a 16/8, for example, Catherine, with two meals is also intermittent fasting And 18/6 with two meals is also intermittent fasting, and some people eat three meals within their window. Other people naturally have just one. It just depends on how you handle food. I'm a volume eater, and I tend to just like to have-- go one and done. I'll have a-- I'll prepare my meal. I'll have a few, you know, little trinkets while I'm preparing the main big meal, but it's the same sort of window, the same meal, not the same plate. And they're all different ways-- these are all different ways of practicing the same overall concept. I actually think this is where people can unintentionally make fasting harder than it needs to be, Catherine. So I think you can hear someone's doing OMAD and suddenly think, "Well, I should probably be doing that too." Not necessarily. The question isn't what, what's the smallest eating window I can possibly survive? The better question I reckon is, what's the eating window that allows me, as Catherine, to feel great, healthy, full of energy, and consistent? Because consistency is how this is gonna be the long game, 'cause it is like a lifestyle. It's not just a fad. And from what you're-- what you've described, Catherine, you're breaking your fast around noon and with what sounds like a pretty, pretty nutrient-dense meal. You got your veggies in there, your avo, your occasionally your RX bar, your green juice. Then you're sitting down with the fam for dinner around five. Great. Honestly, that sounds like a really lovely t- like rhythm. That's great. And I like that you mentioned dinner with your family, 'cause that's something that's special. And if that works for your window, even better, because I like that concept. Food isn't just fuel. It's connection. It's conversation, sitting around a table, connecting.
Barry Conrad
Sometimes we can get so focused on optimizing the fasting and our health that we forget that in the context of a family meals can be a real highlight of the day 'cause you get to sit down at the end of the day and connect. So if having lunch and dinner allows you to do that, uh, Catherine, while also maintaining your fasting lifestyle, I think that's massive win.
That's great. The only thing I'd say is think about-- I want you to think about is making sure your first meal does contain enough protein. I notice you mentioned veggies here and avo- avocado, green juice and whatnot, but they're great. All those things are really good. But I'd also look at adding really solid protein source there too. So you wanna have... There's eggs, there's chicken, fish, Greek yogurt, cottage cheese, tofu, whatever you like to eat, but protein's very important, and it's gonna help you, especially now that you're starting, y- two weeks in, it's gonna help massively with your satiety, so you don't feel like you're starving or hungry 'cause there is an adjustment period there. And not only that, it's gonna support your muscle maintenance, which is so important. Gives your body the, the building blocks it needs to, to build the muscle and especially if you're fasting consistently. And beyond that, I wouldn't change much if you're feeling great then. One thing I've learned through fasting, Catherine, is that a lot of times people can assume that it's-- there's one perfect magnus opus protocol. There's not. The common thread isn't the number of meals. It's just giving your body the fasting period. You also mentioned you're, again, like you're two weeks in. So at this stage, don't chase like a rewa- like a, a brownie or like a golden star. Just I'd, I'd reckon more chase your consistency and learn how you feel through your hunger patterns right now. Pay attention to your sleep, your-- how you process certain foods. After having that break, uh, your gut will, will tell you actually, because sometimes when you eliminate-- not eliminate, when you take that break and you eat again, your body will actually let you know, "Oh, actually, this doesn't make me feel great." So pay attention to that. And finally, I love the part, the last part here, where you said you love your wine and your paleo eating as well. I l- I, I actually used to love paleo back in the day. I started paleo before doing intermittent fasting. Yep, you've definitely found the right podcast then because one of the things I lo- love about this as well is that it's not about chasing any perfect protocol. It's about building a way of eating that supports our health. So Catherine, if it's two meals within that 16/8, if it's one meal, if it's three meals, you get that. Whatever it is, if it's working for you, if you're feeling good, you're getting enough protein, then you're on the right track. Melanie, what do you think?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I agree so much, and we're, we're chuckling because, as listeners may or may not know, this was a very long discussion in the past with me and Jen Stevens. We called it the great one meal a day debate. Yeah, Barry really nailed it. Like it's all about, and this is kind of in the theme of this episode, which is that you have to find what works for you. So fasting-- like finding the fasting and the window that works for you and whether or not it's technically one meal or two meals, if it's working for you, it's working for you. And I, I think about this sometimes because for example, like I-- and we've talked about this before, but to revisit it, the amount of time I eat my, quote, "one meal a day" is like a pretty long time at night. It ends up becoming almost the equivalent of like two meals, even though I, I insist it's one meal, and I still call it one meal a day even when I like, like for example, tomorrow I'm going to see a theater show, and when that happens, I, I have drinks way earlier because normally I don't have like drinks and food until the evening, like pretty late. But if I'm going to theater, I might, you know, have my first drink at like five o'clock. And then so I'm literally taking in calories from like five until like three AM, and I still consider it like one meal a day for me. So my point is it's semantics really.
You have to just find what works for you. And I agree with everything Barry said about it's so great, like prioritizing like the, the family and, um, you know, finding the, the lifestyle that works for you. So yeah, I think keep on keeping on. And then like you-- Barry also said, it's also nice because while you're doing two meals right now, then if you ever do wanna like play around with things and try a different approach, you can try a one meal, and it'll be something fun to experiment with. So You would consider what I do one meal a day, right? Would you?
Barry Conrad
Yes. It's not like... I don't think one meal is like one plate. It's like a... I don't know.
Melanie Avalon
But Jen was a meal and a snack.
Barry Conrad
Ah, okay.
Melanie Avalon
'Cause she would have, like, an avocado and then, like, cook dinner for a while, and then have dinner, and that's why I was saying it's a meal and a snack.
Barry Conrad
Oh my gosh. This is ... I actually w- you know what? I'm actually gonna go back at some point and listen to that again and just laugh.
Melanie Avalon
I know. I should revisit it too.
Barry Conrad
But Catherine, thank you for your question, and honestly, keep us posted.
Melanie Avalon
And also, I love that you love wine and paleo, so yay. Shall we have our proverbial breaking of the fast moment?
Barry Conrad
Let's do it.
Melanie Avalon
Okie dokie, friends. So this portion of the show, the purpose of it, is that we like to emphasize the importance of the eating window just as much as the fasting, because that is super important.
So we like to find restaurants that look pretty nifty that we would like to visit, and then imagine what we would order there. So Barry, what restaurant do you have for us today?
Barry Conrad
Yes, so today my restaurant is called Louie Louie in Toronto, in Canada, and I'm gonna send you the website, and then I'm also gonna send you the menu because it's kinda tricky to get to, so I'm gonna send you the link for that too.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, the lighting looks on point.
Barry Conrad
So this, this little place is perched on the 31st floor of the St. Regis in Toronto.
Melanie Avalon
My favorite hotel chain.
Barry Conrad
Really?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. That's where Atlas is, where I went last week.
Barry Conrad
Amazing. It's got, like, sweeping skyline views of one of the city's most spectacular dining rooms, anchored with breathtaking st- two story cre- crystal chandeliers, fully a la carte menu with elevated North American classics, including Melanie's favorite premium steaks, seafood, and my favorite, handmade pastas, indulgent desserts. Wine list is meant to be stellar and exceptional. It's also home to the famous King's Cake, a towering 13-layer chocolate cake. Yum.
Cake that has become one of Toronto's most iconic desserts. Wow. Also, the vibe is meant to be glamorous, bold, sophisticated. Think art deco elegance with plush velvet seating, dramatic lighting, and the kind of room that instantly feels like a celebration. How good is that?
Melanie Avalon
I'm gonna change something I said earlier on in this, like when we first started the episode, I think. You know how I said, like, I wouldn't get dinner for the first date ever?
Barry Conrad
Yes.
Melanie Avalon
If I, if I were to get invited to, like, someplace like this, and like you can just come and like have dinner, I think I would, I would go. Yes. If I'm not paying for it.
Barry Conrad
It's a pretty amazing pl- amazing, amazing spot, so... And I agree. It depe- I guess it always depends on the occasion.
So if you go to the dinner, there's a few menus here, but go to the din- dinner one, and we can dive right into what we have here at Louie Louie Toronto.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, and we did poll listeners about if they care if we mispronounce things, and they seem to be pretty chill about it.
Barry Conrad
Actually, h- shout-out to all the listeners out there who commented in the Facebook group about that they were fine with us butchering some of these phrases, which we don't intentionally do, but we'll try to do better. But glad you're enjoying the segment nonetheless.
Melanie Avalon
Yes. So to that point, the house made... Is it a brioche? I should know that.
Barry Conrad
Yes, brioche.
Melanie Avalon
I think it's brioche.
Barry Conrad
I think in Australia we say brioche. Uh, maybe you guys say brioche.
So are, are actually gonna get the... Are you gonna get the house made brioche, or are you gonna... You tempted to try a little bit of that?
Melanie Avalon
Nope. How about you?
Barry Conrad
You know what? I do love a good bread of the, of the, uh, abode, so I'll try that. I'll try the... 'Cause it might come with some nice butter of some sort.
Melanie Avalon
I will appreciate you wa- getting it, and I will watch you eat it.
Barry Conrad
Any of the, uh, salads and appetizers look like they-
Melanie Avalon
Yes. Oh my goodness. Okay. Well, I see something that you... No, wait. Yes, I see something that you want.
Barry Conrad
What's that?
Melanie Avalon
Well, a lot of things, but definitely the East Coast half dozen oysters.
Barry Conrad
Of course.
Melanie Avalon
With Champagne Mignonette and lemon.
Barry Conrad
I would probably get... I'd probably double that order, 'cause it's only a half dozen, so I'll probably get a dozen of that.
Melanie Avalon
Or actually, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Backtrack. What if instead, look at the petite seafood plateau.
Barry Conrad
Actually, you're right, Mel. It comes with scallop crudo, Nova Scotia lobster tail, East Coast oysters, salmon tartare with three grams of Ossetra caviar, citrus cocktail sauce. Oh, yeah, give that to me. That sounds perfect.
Melanie Avalon
And it's gluten-free.
Barry Conrad
Mm-hmm.
Melanie Avalon
I would have from that the, the salmon tartare for sure, and the lobs- some of the lobster tail, and then I would taste an oyster for you so that you can yet again see that I will never like oysters.
Barry Conrad
I am convinced that you actually will eventually try one that you like. I really do.
Melanie Avalon
Here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna get them the way I eat them, and then you're gonna let me know if you still like them.
Barry Conrad
Maybe you're just having the wrong ones. I, I'll order for us, and you can try it.
Melanie Avalon
Like, I eat them plain.
Barry Conrad
Yeah, I eat them pl- I don't do any of the fancy stuff. It just needs to be fresh.
Melanie Avalon
Do you put lemon on it, though?
Barry Conrad
Of course.
Melanie Avalon
See, no lemon.
Barry Conrad
You gotta put some lemon on there.
Melanie Avalon
Maybe that's the problem. Maybe you should try it... Okay, wait.
Request. Next time you go out and you get oysters, can you get the lemon on the side and taste it without the lemon and see if you feel revolted? And then you'll be like, "I understand Melanie." And then you can put the lemon on.
Barry Conrad
I had it today. I had it literally before-
Melanie Avalon
Without lemon? It was completely plain?
Barry Conrad
Well, I had it completely plain for the first couple, and then I said, "Oh, there's... I forgot to squeeze it," and then I put the lemon on top.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, okay. Whoa, and you liked it?
Barry Conrad
I loved it.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, there goes the theory. Okay. I feel like I answered for you.
Barry Conrad
What would you get from this ver- actually, there's a few different things you could get, Mel.
Melanie Avalon
Well, definitely the things I mentioned from the seafood plateau, and then definitely tartare de beef, hand chopped Canadian filet mignon, truffle dij- dijonnaise, Parmigiano... Wait, I know, Parmesan I don't know how to say it, Parmigiano
Barry Conrad
Parmigiano-Reggiano?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I know it's, like, such a common word, and that sourdough egg yolk. I would have that deconstructed, please.
Barry Conrad
I'll have you a sourdough if you want, 'cause you probably wanna have that, right?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I would have the flamingon, I would put some of the egg yolk on it, and then maybe some of the... Depending on the truffle, what- depending on what's in the truffle Dijonaise.
Barry Conrad
Shall we skip into the entrees, the signatures?
Melanie Avalon
Did you want any caviar, though?
Barry Conrad
We've gotta do caviar. We ki- 'cause it's just so moreish, right? Classic accoutrements with, uh, accoutrements with blinis.
Melanie Avalon
And I have no idea how to pronounce it. Os- Osietra caviar?
Barry Conrad
I think it's Osietra. Please cor- correct us if we're wrong, everyone. We're trying.
Melanie Avalon
We tried. Okay. Entrees.
Barry Conrad
There's also land and sea, but anyway, so there's entree. So yeah, there's the signatures, and then if you scroll down a little bit more, there's land and sea.
So there's... And there's a vegetarian. Okay, so keep going down there. That's all entrees.
Melanie Avalon
Okay. Well, they have one of my favorite fishes. Fish. So definitely I love branzino. I wonder if it's served whole. Hopefully.
Barry Conrad
I think it would be, actually.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I hope it's a whole br- branzino. So it comes with sauce grenoblois, spinach, oven-roasted cherry tomatoes, breadcrumbs. So no breadcrumbs. Honestly, if I can just get it plain, that'd be really great with some, like, lemon and cilantro on the side maybe.
And then maybe I'll get that, and then for dessert I'll... Hmm, what are you getting? I need to keep thinking.
Barry Conrad
Okay. I would definitely get the... Because, yeah, I'm, I'm in a new lobster love phase right now, lobster love era. So I'll get the lo- I don't often get risotto. I'm gonna get lobster risotto, as well as the half chicken.
So the lobster risotto is Carnaroli rice, Nova Scotia lobster, Ontario peas, asparagus, fresh truffles. And the half chicken, I'll get that roasted, 'cause you get it roasted or fried, so I'll get it roasted with sauce Diane, black truffle butter, and a choice of fried or roast... Uh, I've said roasted. Oh, hold on. Hold on, hold on, hold on. I'll take that back. I'll get the lobster risotto and a whole chicken, not the half chicken. I'll get the whole chicken.
Melanie Avalon
Where's the whole chicken?
Barry Conrad
It's just beneath it.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, oh. Okay.
Barry Conrad
'Cause I feel like it's not... It's, it's actually not that big. A whole chicken's not that much really, actually.
Melanie Avalon
It's like my ti- my time period where I just ate an entire chicken every night.
Barry Conrad
Soundbite of the, the episode.
Melanie Avalon
No, I literally did that though for... Have we, have we talked about this?
Barry Conrad
Vaguely. Remind me again.
Melanie Avalon
Probably, like, six months I ate an entire... That's all I ate was I went and got the rotisserie chickens that they marked down to $3 after 11:00 PM at the Ralphs, and then I put coconut oil on it and ate it.
Barry Conrad
That's s- such a good paleo meal though, and it's prob- and so good too.
Melanie Avalon
And also, I'm, I am so sorry, I apologize, but I have to say this. I have to.
You said you're in your lobster era. I have two things to say. One, I still need to go get the lobster tails at Whole Foods and, like, do that. Two, you said era. You know where I'm going with this, right?
Barry Conrad
Taylor Swift?
Melanie Avalon
I can't believe I haven't mentioned her wedding yet. Where... Did you see it? It was in New York.
Barry Conrad
I didn't see it, but, uh, I definitely... Okay, hold on.
Melanie Avalon
Was the city affected? Did the city shut down? Like, how did we not open the episode with this?
Barry Conrad
I know. I'm actually surprised you didn't talk about this, but I definitely... We... Let me just put it this way. As a city, we definitely felt the presence of Taylor and Kel- and Travis Kelce.
Melanie Avalon
How so? Was the, was the traffic crazy? Like, were people... Or was it just, like, a vibe in the air, like Christmas?
Barry Conrad
Not Christmas. I just think, like, there were, you know, there was different, uh, security detail put in place, and pe- people would say, "And we now have a security detail pla- in place. We, we can't say why." But people obviously know why.
So it's like MSG was shut down, Madison Square Garden vibes. Yeah.
Melanie Avalon
'Cause how far are you from Madison Square?
Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's not, it's not that far, but it's just we definitely heard... Everybody heard about it. It was in the news.
You know, there was something going on down there, and it was, oh, it's Taylor Swift's thing. You know, pictures and stuff. Yeah, I mean, great. Good for her. Great. It sounds like a really big... If you can shut down MSG, that's, that's big time. That's awesome.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, talk about manifesting your most perfect wedding.
Barry Conrad
She said she wanted to be in, like, a, the Madison Square Garden kind of thing.
Melanie Avalon
No, it just sounds like a great wedding.
Barry Conrad
I mean, good, I mean, good for her. I mean, sounds great. Um, it's, it's, it's crazy she's married now. Isn't that wild as a fan?
Melanie Avalon
I know. I wonder what the next album will be. It's gonna be the first, like, married album. She's gonna, she's gonna enter a whole new world of stories. I wonder if she's gonna be the type of person that... Like, I wonder... Actually, I'm... And not to make this a whole tangent.
I promise it'll be short. One of the books that I'm prepping for right now, it's called The Social Brain. It's by Ben Rein, and it's all about how much our, our brains need friends. Like, he makes the case that we talk about we need food and we need sleep and we need shelter, but we don't talk about how important social relationships are. It's actually really giving me, like, a whole new perspective on humans and everything. But apparently they did a study and... So, like, when you're in a romantic relationship with somebody, a big part of that is the oxytocin that's released and, like, present in your connection with that person, and they've done studies where they, like, test people on first dates and they test their oxytocin levels, and it predicts who stays together. And people who stay together, like, forever, forever, like, way later, they have very similar oxytocin levels to when they first met. So the point is, like, on a brain neurological level, some people are forever, like, in that love state, you know, forever. And then for, like, half the population, I guess, 'cause a lot of people get divorced, that goes away. So I wonder if she... Like, which one it's gonna be for her, you know? And then the how that will inform her music
Barry Conrad
Well, I, I did really like her, um, n- we're not gonna go down this tangent, but I d- I did like her Lover's... The song that, the album that Lover's was on
Melanie Avalon
Oh, you liked her Lover album when she was, like, in a good... Okay. You like, rather than, like, her breakup albums
Barry Conrad
I didn't listen to any of her breakup albums. There's n- I don't like the angsty, teeny, girly stuff. It's not really for me.
Melanie Avalon
It's not angsty, teeny. It's, like, dark and sad and-
Barry Conrad
Okay. Also, I, I, I appreciate that, and also I guess, I guess I'm not a stan, but I really did like her Lover's Al- I thought it was great. I mean, and she is a really good songwriter, and it was still very, like, atmospheric and, and visual. So I'll give... Taylor is great.
I, I'm not a hater, a Taylor hater.
Melanie Avalon
So basically, the amount of appreciation or liking that Barry Conrad is gonna have for Taylor Swift in her upcoming albums is gonna depend on Taylor's oxytocin levels with Travis Kelce. I don't know.
I think that's, like, a really good thesis. I, I think it makes sense.
Barry Conrad
But I would say, I would be curious to see what the next album would sound like then because now she's married, you know?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Okay. So we had that tangent. You're welcome. Um, when you said era, did you know I was gonna go there?
Barry Conrad
I... When... As soon as I said eras, like, why did I say era? Why did those, that word escape my mouth?
Melanie Avalon
We're like an old married couple. Oh my gosh.
Barry Conrad
You didn't say, "Okay, yeah, the branzino. Okay, so what are, what's for any sides? Would you like any sides?"
Melanie Avalon
And the other, the thing is, though, I feel like branzino's not gonna be enough, but maybe I'll get dessert as well.
Barry Conrad
But also look down at the sides. There's something that you might like. You don't normally like sides, but look at, look down there.
Melanie Avalon
They have butterfly shrimp as a side? Oh, that's wonderful. That's cool. I've, I don't ever see that really. Do you?
Barry Conrad
No.
Melanie Avalon
It's kind of interesting that we don't normally see any sort of, like, meat option or seafood as a side. So you know what? That actually answers my question. I'm not gonna get that side, and here's why.
That's what I'm gonna get for dessert 'cause that's, like, an easy dessert for them to whip up. When you order your dessert, I'll be like, "I'll just have some of the butterfly shrimp sides. Like, that'll be my dessert." So I am gonna include some sort of meat in my... I'm gonna double entrée it up. I'm gonna get the branzino, and then... I wish they had a filet. I guess the, uh, the New York strip, cooked blue as they will bring it.
Barry Conrad
Any of the classic cocktails that you can see on this menu?
Melanie Avalon
I mean, no, but let me have a look any- anyways. Do they have the wine list?
Barry Conrad
If you go back to the me- the first link I sent, they, where all the menus are, there is a wine menu as well.
Melanie Avalon
Are you gonna have a cocktail?
Barry Conrad
Yeah.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, wait. We skipped ahead. We didn't do the dessert.
Barry Conrad
Yeah, we... So I think 'cause it's on a separate menu, so we gotta go, let's go back to-
Melanie Avalon
I went to the link that you sent, and it says King's Cake, and I was like, they ha- it has its, has its own, its own, like, section. Like, on their website at the top, it's like home, our menus, about us, specials, blah, blah, blah, private events, King Cake. Like, it has its own its own thing.
Barry Conrad
Well, I definitely am gonna just get that because that, that is the crown jewel of Lulu, Louis Louis, I should say. It's, uh... It looks amazing. I have to get it.
Melanie Avalon
13 layers with 64% something something ganache, hazelnut. Do you like hazelnut? I actually don't like hazelnut. There are very few foods I don't like, and I don't like hazelnut.
Barry Conrad
You know what? It's not my go-to nut of choice, but I will eat it. Like, I, it's fine. Like, I'll have it, but in this case, okay, one slice, everyone, serves five to six people, right?
Melanie Avalon
Please read all of this 'cause this is, like, crazy.
Barry Conrad
"A dessert as majestic as its muse, the King's Cake draws inspiration from the golden age of King Louis IV."
Melanie Avalon
The XIII.
Barry Conrad
The XIII. The XIII, sorry. Got that wrong.
Melanie Avalon
And actually, I meant just read, like, the slice and whole cake, but this is good too.
Barry Conrad
"This decadent dessert features 13 layers of rich chocolate cake enveloped in velvety 64% Guirquill ganache and a hazelnut chocolate buttercream served with a scoop of vanilla ice cream and finished with a warm pour of chocolate sauce, which is an indulgence that's as grand as it's, as it is unforgettable. And a slice serves five to six people." I'm getting that.
Melanie Avalon
$55, five to six people.
Barry Conrad
I'm getting it. I have to.
Melanie Avalon
I wanna see it. Like, I need to s- So the picture that they have on the website, I don't have a good reference point for how big it is. I'm actually gonna Google it really quick.
Barry Conrad
I feel like if you men- like, think of, like, a normal slice of cake and then just increase the height by five.
Melanie Avalon
Okay. I just looked up... Oh, I just Googled it. Oh my gosh. Barry, you should Google it.
Barry Conrad
Oh, wazzes.
Melanie Avalon
It's like the Leaning Tower of Pisa.
Barry Conrad
It's massive. I would clean that up, though.
Melanie Avalon
Would you eat all of it, you think?
Barry Conrad
Yes.
Melanie Avalon
Like, serious question, like, actually?
Barry Conrad
Actually, yeah. Well, also, no, you, you haven't, you haven't actually eaten with me before.
Melanie Avalon
Serious question. Like, a s- this is a serious question. I am so serious.
Do you think in the entire universe, this is actually possible, that we have had the most imagined virtual dinners together without ever having dinner together? I think, I think that's ac- I think that actually might be a s- a true statement, unless there's, unless there's, like, another podcast where they're doing this or if there's, like, a couple that's, like, dating, or not dating, like, who have, like, met long term, or if they're, like, you know, on the phone and they, like, go through restaurants, like, for fun maybe.
Barry Conrad
I can't even ca- I don't even know how many we've done. There's so many.
Melanie Avalon
I know. We've... That actually might be... We might, we might be. Just saying.
Barry Conrad
I think so.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Or you can get the whole cake for $400.
Barry Conrad
If you get the whole cake, what I would do with that, I would d- I would have to, like, know people in the... Like, for example, if I I'd have to have friends in the area. I don't wanna, like, have the whole thing, so I'd, like, wanna give some away.
But if not, I'm getting, definitely getting a slice for sure.
Melanie Avalon
I'm going to the wine menu and the dessert menu 'cause I'm curious what else they have on the dessert menu. Okay.
The king's cake. Oh, they have a, they have a baked Alaska, a cherry baked Alaska. They have a cheese board.
Barry Conrad
We definitely have to get a cheese board for the table. I think in this case I'm gonna skip the baked Alaska because the cake is too much of a, a feat, of too much of a, a mountain to climb.
Melanie Avalon
Understood. They also, I th- I think they have the most elaborate, um, what's it called? Like, a key of any menu I've ever seen.
So nuts, gluten, halal, alcohol, dairy, vegan, fish gelatin, pork gelatin, beef gelatin. They tell you for all of those things.
Barry Conrad
Any wine for you or are you, you gonna find something that you'll be able to find something?
Melanie Avalon
Yes. Let me look very quick. Okay. So I feel very confident that we'll be fine.
Like, there's clearly gonna be a somm there. I won't even look at the wine list. This is, like, what I did when I went to Atlas. Like, I, I'm just like, I tell them what I like and I'm like, "You find, you find something," which would be French, low alcohol, organic, dry, fruity if possible, on the lighter side, and I'll be good.
Barry Conrad
Great.
Melanie Avalon
Okay. I wanna go here.
Barry Conrad
Same.
Melanie Avalon
Good find. Let's go.
Barry Conrad
I would love this place.
Melanie Avalon
I would too. Actually, I'm just thinking though, when you... I have an idea. When you come here, I have a gift card for The Four Seasons with a very insane amount of money on it that I have not used. It's just, like, sitting there.
We should, like... I'll see if they have a good, a good restaurant in The Four Seasons, and maybe I'll profile it next time, and we can see if we should go there.
Barry Conrad
That sounds great.
Melanie Avalon
Okay. Go team. So friends, we hope you had the best time with us today.
If you enjoyed today's show... Actually, no. Backtrack. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode491. They will have links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are ifpodcast. I am melanieavalon. Barry is barry_conrad. And if you would like to submit questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com. And if you're enjoying the show, it would mean the absolute world if you could take a moment and write a brief review on Apple Podcasts. So I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?
Barry Conrad
That's all from me. Thank you so much for tuning in, everyone, and we'll catch you next time.
Melanie Avalon
Talk to you next week.
Barry Conrad
Talk to you next week. Bye.
Melanie Avalon
Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.
If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joiner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
See you next week.