Welcome to Episode 487 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.
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TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 487 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm joined by my co-host, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out melanieavalon.com and barryconradofficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions@ifpodcast.com or by going to ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you.
Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 487 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?
Barry Conrad
Mel, I'm doing so well. I, I honestly feel like I haven't spoke to you in a while, even though listeners probably think, you know, we're always talking. But it's been, like, a week between recording, so, uh, I missed ya.
It's good to hear your voice.
Melanie Avalon
I know. I know. I've, I've had, um, withdrawal symptoms. I have something really random to talk about.
Barry Conrad
Tell me.
Melanie Avalon
Have we talked about ... I think we have. I don't think we've talked about it since I've gone down the rabbit hole. I have gone down a rabbit hole of lucid dreaming.
Barry Conrad
Really?
Melanie Avalon
Yes. Have we talked about this?
Barry Conrad
We haven't, but I'm curious to see what you're gonna say about it. Tell me.
Melanie Avalon
Have you ... Do you, have you had lucid dreams?
Barry Conrad
I have, and I often remember my dreams.
Melanie Avalon
Do you find w- if you have a lucid dream where you realize you're dreaming, that you wake up pretty soon once you realize?
Barry Conrad
Not always, but sometimes I do, and it's like, no, I just wanted, I was this close to finding out a good part or something was about to be revealed or something.
Melanie Avalon
You wanna stay in the ... So, like, lucid dreaming and, and that you're, like, for a definition, it, it's when you're aware that you're dreaming.
Barry Conrad
Ah, yeah. Well, y- but when that happens, I do wake up quickly then, yes. I do.
Melanie Avalon
And it's ... So I historically have moments of lucid dreaming where like, oh, I'm dreaming, and it's so exciting 'cause then you can, like, do whatever you want. Like, it's like literally being in a, a video game but, like, real life. It's so fun, but that's the problem, is you wake up right after.
So I went down a rabbit hole, and I, I learned ... Okay, I learned some really crazy things. Are you ready for this?
Barry Conrad
Tell me.
Melanie Avalon
I'll tell you three things. I'll tell you ways that you can, like, encourage it to happen, ways you can tell if it's happening, and ways to keep it happening.
Barry Conrad
Okay. Tell me.
Melanie Avalon
This is the, I think, the funnest one, which, which is ways to tell if it's happening. So apparently, your brain is not good at generating hands.
Barry Conrad
Really?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So if you're ever ... Okay, so actually, this is, like, two different things, 'cause this can help you lucid dream because w- something that you can do is, in your daily non-dreaming life, like right now, you can start a habit where you look down, where you, where you ask, "Am I dreaming?" And then you look down at your hands, and you see if they look normal, and if they look normal, you're not, you're not dreaming. But if you're dreaming, they're not gonna look normal. And I've started doing this. It's wild.
Barry Conrad
So what do they look like when you look down at them?
Melanie Avalon
They look different to different people, but, so when I started doing this trick, it, for me, it's one of two things. Either I only have, like, four fingers, like I don't have five fingers, or they're, like, not human hands.
They're, like, these weird, like, inflated, like, puppet-looking hands.
Barry Conrad
That's kinda ... Have you seen that film Everything Everywhere All at Once?
Melanie Avalon
I have. I wish I had paid more atten- I wish I had seen it in theaters, uh, 'cause I kinda watched it, like, while doing work, so I didn't really f- I, I feel like I needed to be more ... I need to watch it more.
Barry Conrad
'Cause Jamie Lee Curtis's character, she has that happen. She looks at her hands, and they're, like, massive, blown-up hands.
Melanie Avalon
Is she in a dream?
Barry Conrad
It's kinda like a alt- alternate sort of, like, reality when it happens, yeah.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so apparently, y- the, yeah, the brain's not good at generating hands. And so I actually had an experience the other night. This was wild. I had one lucid dream, which I knew it was a dream, but I, I looked down and saw my hands, and I knew it was a dream.
Then I woke up from that dream and went into another dream, and in the second dream, I thought I was out of the dream, so I was like, "Oh, I'm awake now." But then I looked down at my hands. I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm still dreaming." And then I had a third dream. I don't remember if I was ... I don't know what happened in the third one. But yeah, so friends, so, like, throughout your day, just be like, "Am I dreaming? Hmm." Look at your hands. Okay? And then the, the hope, the hope is that you'll start doing it so much that when you're dreaming, you'll just be like, "Am I dreaming?" And then you'll look at your hands. So a way to stay in the dream is you need to ... So, like, the second you remember or realize you're dreaming, you, you do a few things. One, don't get excited. I mean, you can get excited, but, like, calm yourself down really quickly. Because if you get, like, "Ah," like, the, y- the, it, like, snaps you out of the dream. Um, so be like, "Okay, that's cool. I'm dreaming." And then you want your brain to start generating the dream world more rather than stopping generating it. So the way you do that is you spin around, like, slowly, because you wanna look everywhere. Because by looking everywhere, your brain has to start generating the world, and then your brain is focusing on creating the dream world rather than taking you out of it.
Barry Conrad
Okay. Okay, so how do you know th- like, this? Like, how did you figure this out?
Melanie Avalon
I read it online. I talked with ChatGPT a lot about it. Chad's been walking me through it, like, 'cause there's like a whole world of people that, like, play with this.
Barry Conrad
Do this?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So don't get excited, calm down, generate the world by looking around. Look, look at your hands to, like, further solidify that you're dreaming. If you're trying to find people, the brain is not very good at conjuring, like, a specific person right then. So instead, you, you pretend... You, like, put them behind a door. So, and then you think, "Okay, I'm gonna go see this person behind the door," and then you open the door, and then they might be behind the door. That's just a little tip.
Isn't this interesting?
Barry Conrad
That's so interesting, and it's also so similar to that film. I don't know if that's, has any-
Melanie Avalon
Now, yeah, I should rewatch it. Maybe, maybe it's, maybe it's a thesis on lucid dreaming. Yeah, and then way- ways to induce it is, like, when you're f- there's the WILD method and the MILD method.
Barry Conrad
Tell me.
Melanie Avalon
So the MILD method is where you, like, while you're falling asleep, you say, you think intently, like, "Once I'm dreaming, I'm gonna know I'm lucid dreaming," or like, "Once I'm dreaming, I'm gonna wake up," or like, "Once I..." Or you can have, like, a situation. Like, "Once I..." You can, like, think about something, like, "I'm gonna be at a coffee shop, and then once I'm at the coffee shop, I'm gonna know I'm dreaming." Like, you just wanna, like, put an intention in your brain to, like, be aware, and then basically you just kind of fall asleep.
But if you wake up in the middle of the night and you remember the dream that you just had, think about being back in that dream and you can often get... That's how you can often become lucid, because then you just had a dream, you woke up, your brain is, like, still in that dreamy state, so you think about that, but now you're aware that you woke up, so then it's, it's easy to, like, become lucid in that situation. And then there's the WILD method, which apparently is more elaborate and expert. So Chad said that you have to work up to it. But it's where you actually try to think about something while falling asleep and then let the dream come to you, so you watch yourself walk into a dream.
Barry Conrad
Whoa.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah.
Barry Conrad
And also, okay, Mel, I have a question for you. So what do you find yourself mainly dreaming about? Like, do you have any, like, themes that keep coming through, or is it more just random, or is it what happened that day? Like, h- uh, tell me.
Melanie Avalon
Dreams in general or, or what do I choose to lucid dream about?
Barry Conrad
Both.
Melanie Avalon
I've had this con- Danielle and I had this, my sister and I had this conversation about what do you choose to, to dream about, 'cause we feel like it's kind of telling. Like like, like what you choose.
Like, she, she likes to fly. I like to, like, eat Funfetti cake and manifest romantic partners.
Barry Conrad
Oh my gosh, that's, that's hilarious. That also is very... I can see that, for sure.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that's why you gotta have the thing about put them behind a door 'cause otherwise... In general, my dreams are, like, all over the place, especially since I take, like, 50 to 100 milligrams of melatonin. They're wild.
I don't even know. They're, I don't know. They're interesting.
Barry Conrad
Do you think dreams mean something? Like, do you think certain things like, okay, for example, like teeth falling out or flying or certain, like, themes like that, do you think they mean something universally?
Like, how does that all work?
Melanie Avalon
I think... So I think a lot of the things do relate to universal themes. So, like, your teeth falling out is probably that you're really stressed about something you can't control. I don't know if that's the actual definition, but, I mean, it makes sense.
Like, your, like, literally your teeth are falling out, like you can't control something. I don't know, I, I think things probably relate to reasons that people dream about certain things. I do think the s- stories of our dreams are... I mean, there's so many theories, but one of the... I was recently reading about this in a, in one of my podcast guest's book, and basically I think the latest theory is that it's your brain just filtering through information and deciding what to keep and what thr- and what to throw away from the day.
Barry Conrad
'Cause sometimes you can wake up from a dream, at least for me, and go, "What does that mean?" if it's not, like, a positive dream or, you know.
And you kinda try to th- maybe overthink it or read into it. But I, I have no idea about anything dreams-wise, but I'm sure that's a thing, or someone could probably shed a light on it.
Melanie Avalon
I know. It's, it's fascinating. I highly recommend you s- You should try the, the lucid dreaming stuff. It's so fun.
Barry Conrad
So who do you see behind these doors? Like, are these romantic partners good ones?
Melanie Avalon
I can't tell you on the show.
Barry Conrad
Okay, well, save them for the mythical call after the show.
Melanie Avalon
It's a lot of people from, like, the past.
Barry Conrad
Oh.
Melanie Avalon
I don't... That wasn't really, like, a hint. I mean, like I mean, I guess so.
I guess putting you back to, like, those, so revelatory, but it's people I don't current- it's people are not, it's a lot pe- it's people who are not currently in my life.
Barry Conrad
Is it anyone that I know about?
Melanie Avalon
Probably not.
Barry Conrad
Okay.
Melanie Avalon
But, and we can stop. I know this is, like, a long thing, but, uh, what would you lucid dream about? Eating Funfetti?
Barry Conrad
No, but I do fly a lot. I do fly a lot, actually.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah.
Barry Conrad
And I really like it. I just like the feeling of being weightless and just, like, zooming through the air and being able to have this aerial view of everything.
I, I f- it's freeing. I've always loved that, and I've always had it.
Melanie Avalon
Actually, that's one of my, that is one of my, um, like, one of my... Sometimes when I realize I'm lucid dr- before I did all this research, sometimes when I realize I'm lucid dreaming, I wanna test it by stepping off of a building or something.
Barry Conrad
Maybe don't do that part.
Melanie Avalon
I don't do that in real life, but, um, in the dream. Like, basically I test it by flying.
Barry Conrad
Do you like flying in dreams?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I'd rather eat Funfetti cake, but it's fun.
Barry Conrad
When you're eating the Funfetti cake, is it, like, an endless amount, like a mountain, or is it just like-
Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. It's not just Funfetti. It's, like, I make a buffet and eat, like, everything that I wanna eat, and I can really taste it.
My, my problem, my problem recently is that I'm be- I'm becoming so lucid, like, I'm becoming so aware that I'm dreaming that I've been str- and I, I talked to Chad about this, how not to do this. I stress out that I'm gonna... I see myself in the dream, I know I'm laying in bed asleep, so I'm worried that by eating this food, I'm gonna, like, actually ch- be chewing in the bed and, like, bite my tongue. I don't trust my body to, like, be paralyzed.
Barry Conrad
It's that real.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. But my chat assured me that my body's paralyzed and I will not bite my tongue, so not wo- don't worry about that, but I do.
'Cause I'm like, "My body's laying in bed. What if I'm chewing? What if I bite off my tongue?"
Barry Conrad
Have you ever done one of those things where you record yourself? You know, there's those apps that record you while you sleep, like the, the sounds you make or-
Melanie Avalon
Oh, no, like paranormal activity?
Barry Conrad
No, it's like, uh, actually, a, a that would kind of be scary though. But there's someone that I know in Sydney who did that while she slept, and apparently she heard some guy's voice in the room, but there was no one in the room.
That, that was weird. I don't know.
Melanie Avalon
See, that, that's what immediately came to my mind, is that, like, I'm actually scared of the concept because, like... Yeah.
Barry Conrad
You don't wanna hear somebody, yeah, behind a door actually talking, coming through your-
Melanie Avalon
All the horror movies are, like, people asleep and stuff happening.
Barry Conrad
It would be so interesting just to s-see yourself or hear yourself, like if you, if you sleep talk. I wonder if you sleep talk while you're having this lucid dream.
Melanie Avalon
I don't think I do.
Barry Conrad
When was the last one that you had? Last night?
Melanie Avalon
I seem to have lost the talent. When I started researching it like a week ago, I was like bam, bam, bam, bam, and now I haven't been able to for the f- for the fast, like last few nights, so I need to talk with chat why this is happening.
Barry Conrad
I reckon it's gonna come back to you and y- like now that you're saying that you lost it, it's gonna come back. Maybe it's gonna hit tonight.
Melanie Avalon
I hope. I did so well. I said I did so well because I literally right before bed researched it for like two hours, and it was like, it was just like in my brain, and that like lingered for like two nights and then I lost it.
Barry Conrad
Well, I'm just surprised that it's not more... I'm sure this is researched by people. I'm sure there may be people that specialize in dreams, but I wish it was more like a chart.
This means that, this means this. Like kind of like a... You know what I mean?
Melanie Avalon
Like a scientific-
Barry Conrad
Yes.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. 'Cause I feel like there's a lot of like non-scientific, not that it's not real, but yeah, a scientific chart would be nice.
Barry Conrad
Imagine if you could develop an app, an app for for deciphering dreams. I don't know how that would even work.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Af-after, actually, yeah, once I launch my dating app, maybe that's the next one to go.
Barry Conrad
And part of the dating app is you have to picture a closed door or you have to remember a closed door and you-
Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. Where the person is behind the door.
Barry Conrad
That's your match. There's no swiping.
Melanie Avalon
Okay. On that note, I did not-- I knew that was gonna be like f- I did not mean for that to be 15 minutes, but, um, yeah.
Barry Conrad
Well, I wanna hear about the... after the show more about it. There's so many things.
Melanie Avalon
We will talk about it on our Mythical call. So before we-- So for today's show, we have a really interesting topic.
We're not doing listener Q&A. We're doing something pretty fun. But before that, would you like to start us off with a study?
Barry Conrad
I would. Today I've got a study, and it's called Calorie Labeling and Other Drivers of Takeaway Food Choices.
Melanie Avalon
Ooh, I like this. Okay.
Barry Conrad
Yeah. Just something different.
I'm gonna get you the link. Okay, so this study, it was published in 2025, so not too long ago, in BMJ Nutrition, Prevention, and Health. And the researchers wanted to find out whether putting calorie counts on takeaway menus actually changed what people ordered.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, I love this. Okay. This is great. Can I guess?
Barry Conrad
Yeah. And more importantly, what really, I guess, drives our food choices when we're ordering takeaway food. This is-- This jumped out at me straight away. That's why I had to talk about this. And the study, it surveyed 1,040 adults in England who'd ordered takeaway food online at least once during the previous year. So there's 712 women and 328 men. I wonder why there were so many more w-women, but the participants ranged in age from 18 to over 65, and most were between 35 and 64 years old. So everyone was asked to honestly report their height and weight so the researchers could calculate their body mass index or BMI as we know it. And the paper doesn't really provide the participants' individual heights or weights, only the BMI. So those who did provide that information, 37% were in a healthy weight or underweight category, and 35% were overweight, and 28% were living with obesity.
So the first thing the researchers looked at was how often people were ordering takeaway food, all the st- all the good/bad/tasty stuff that people want. More than one in four participants, about 27%, said they ordered takeaway at least once a week. Younger adults were much more likely to order takeaway regularly than older adults, and people living with obesity were about twice as likely to have takeaway every week compared with people in the healthy weight or underweight category. And, uh, it's important to remember, um, or to note, Mel, that this was an observational study, so it shows an association, not that takeaway food directly caused obesity. Had to put that, make that clear. Okay, so here we go. It's gonna get juicy now. They next, they looked at the calorie labeling itself. So around, around 63% of the participants knew that England requires large takeaway businesses to display calorie information, which I didn't know until I looked into the study. The years where it got really, really fun is because when people thought back to their most recent online takeaway order, only 23% said they actually noticed the calorie labels. So even though, like they're aware, they're aware of the policy, it was, it was reasonably high, most people weren't even paying attention to the information when it came time to ordering the food. And among the people who did notice the labels, the, like most of them said they made no changes at all when they noticed it. So that's like 71% said the calorie info didn't even influence their food choice, while 63% said it didn't affect their drink choice either. So only 26% of those who noticed the labels reported ordering Lower calorie meal, and only 10% reported choosing a lower calorie drink. So overall, this all, like, suggests that calorie labeling had, like, a relatively limited influence on people's takeaway choices, and the researchers also wanted to know, like, whether people actually understood calories. 'Cause in England, um, the public health guidance recommends aiming for about 600 calories for a main meal in England, and only 15% of participants correctly identified that number. So a lot of people weren't even aware that's a thing.
Barry Conrad
So more than half believed the recommendation was actually higher, and women were more likely than men to identify the recommended calorie co- content correctly.
Melanie Avalon
I believe that.
Barry Conrad
Yeah. Hey.
Melanie Avalon
No, no, 'cause women are, women are, like, obsessed with calorie counting.
Barry Conrad
With the calories, yeah. And the researchers, they also-- they suggest this sort of highlights that calorie labels, it can only really be useful if people understand what the numbers actually mean.
So one of the most interesting parts of the study was looking at what actually drives our food choices. So for the takeaway meals, taste was, like, biggest, biggest factor overwhelmingly. Price came next, followed by delivery time. Delivery time is really important. And portion size. Healthiness ranked way lower, with only 22% of participants saying it was one of the most important factors when choosing a takeaway food. When people were choosing meals to come to cook at home, though, health became way more important. The researchers suggested this may reflect that the-- many people think of takeaway as a treat rather than an everyday-
Melanie Avalon
I was gonna say that.
Barry Conrad
Yeah. And I, I see it that way too for myself anyway. It's more like a treat. And so for those of us bringing it back to IF, to intermittent fasting, I think it's a really useful reminder that, that changing when, when we eat doesn't automatically change what drives our food choices. It really doesn't.
So even within a- an eating window, for example, taste, convenience, the value can still influence the decisions. Like, that's why paying attention to food quality with our fasting routine matters so much and will always be important. And the authors concluded overall that the calorie label- labeling might benefit some people, but on its own it's unlikely to have, like, a huge impact at all. Instead, they reckon it should be considered one part of, like, a bigger, broader strategy to pro- promote healthier diets and more so, like, improve overall food environments. That was really interesting. Mel, what do you, what do you think about this study and the findings?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's really interesting. I was thinking, like, what was I gonna guess about what it influences? It really does make sense to me.
I think when people-- even, like, when they eat at restaurants, it's like when you eat at restaurants or you're on vacation or, or you're getting takeout, it's like you consider it not your-- unless you're doing that for every single meal, you're considering it not your normal meal, so it's like you let things slide or you don't, you know, you just don't even look at the calories or don't think about the calories. I would be really curious when they started implementing-- 'cause they did that here too in the US, I think, the, the mandatory calories.
Barry Conrad
Did they?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. It was, like, on chain. It was, like, on chain restaurants, I think. Okay. So in the US, businesses have to post calorie counts if they have 20 or more locations operating under the same name. So that's the chain thing.
Um, and if they offer substantially the same menu at all of those locations, and that's everything. So fast food chains, sit-down restaurants, coffee chains, convenience stores, supermarkets, they have to show-- they have to list the calorie count for each menu item. They have to include the statement, "2,000 calories a day is used for general nutrition advice, but calorie needs vary." And then they have to make additional nutrient information like fat, carbs, protein, et cetera, available upon request. They don't have to do it for temporary menu items or daily specials or custom orders or if it's an alcohol-only menu. So yeah. So what's really interesting about it is I would-- yeah, I would be curious once they implemented that, did that actually, you know, did people change what they were eating at the restaurants? Did it-- I, um, I imagine people might still be eating out the same amount, but I would wonder if, like, when they first implemented it, did people change what they were eating at all? Also interesting that the drinks, that, that the drinks that people didn't really change much. That was-- That's interesting. I feel like that's one of the first things I would change. I'd be like, "Whoa, all these calories from the drink. Maybe I should have water," and then I get back, like, a ton of calories.
Barry Conrad
Yeah. I mean, they're saying here, like, around, like, 71% said the calorie info didn't influence their food choices. That's such a big chunk.
And 63, yeah, 63% said it didn't affect their drink choices.
Melanie Avalon
I also wonder-- This, I actually thought this when you first read that. I wonder if for some of them it did, but they didn't think it did.
Barry Conrad
Like subconsciously?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised.
Barry Conrad
Yeah. I mean, 'cause you don't really order takeout, but when you did order takeaway or takeout or whatnot, do you, did you consider it more like a treat?
Like, did you have that mindset, or did you think, "Oh, I'm just having it 'cause it's, like, fuel," and you kinda guessed, "These are the cals. I'm just gonna have that"? What was your mindset?
Melanie Avalon
So I guess it's like growing up, we would get takeout, you know, sometimes when we weren't making dinner. I just really liked it.
It was exciting. But I was-- I mean, yeah, I guess it was exciting. I loved getting takeout from restaurants. I would-- Okay, so basically, if I was in my-- an adolescent phase where I wasn't into dieting yet, then it didn't, I didn't think about it at all. If I was, then I did try to-- I d- I'm pretty sure I did. Well, I feel like I always did try to change it to make it better, but maybe not, 'cause I'm just, like, thinking about myself eating at different restaurants growing up. I don't know. How about you?
Barry Conrad
Yeah, I think whenever, whenever I do order, which I kind of have a rule to, like, do one, like, once a month order stuff like delivery because it's just a slippery slope. And there was one month where I, like, looked at how much I spent, like, for that month and was like, I don't-- I'd be embarrassed to say what it was. So I just kind of stopped and was like, "You know what? I'm just gonna, like, cook more." And I did.
But I think that I always do consider it more This is a treat. You know, it's been like a... And one of the things, like for example, if I have a self-tape or an audition or something like that, I like to treat myself with like a nice meal or a nice drink, and sometimes that might involve ordering something. So I definitely, uh, relate to that.
Melanie Avalon
I think what I often do now is sometimes I treat myself to buying something at the grocery store that would be more evocative of a restaurant experience. So I do that instead.
So like I go and get, you know, like a f- like a, like we were talking about last time, or I don't know, I don't know what episode it was, but like the full fish. You know? I'll go to like the fish counter and get like an actual like full skin on, like skin on, head on fish. I'll like make it a restaurant experience at home. I'll like sub it out with that. I actually, I don't remember the last time I got... Oh, I guess it was when I was using my credit at, in Las Vegas, and I had to... And I bought all, got all, got all that steak for checkout for takeout.
Barry Conrad
That sounds so good, by the way.
Melanie Avalon
It was so good. Yeah, really interesting study though.
Barry Conrad
Yeah. And I, I, I think there's so much more I wanna know, you know, after, after the fact that also how this applies to different countries as well, if it would be the same.
Melanie Avalon
Here's one last question for you about it, because I actually remember listening to a podcast and they were talking about calories. It was, it was right after they started putting calories on menus, and, um, the person talking about it did not like it. They were saying like, "I didn't ask for this information. Like if I need it, I'll look for it. It's like in my face." They did not like it.
I, I like it. I think, I think it's helpful, and I think it's very eye-opening, even if it makes a person like... 'Cause they were saying like, "You won't enjoy the meal as much and..." But it, for me, I'm like, it's reality. I don't know. What do you think? Like do, do you like it or not like it, the, the concept?
Barry Conrad
I do like it. I, I, I think it's helpful to have, 'cause it's not like you wanna be oblivious. It's not like being ignorant to what you're eating. Like it's still important to know what you're having, for me anyway personally, and that's like across the board.
I don't know if it's because of like, you know, really fixating over macros and stuff earlier on and all that. It's just sort of more, I like to know what I'm eating. And it's also good to know, oh, if this has more protein in it than this thing, even though they're both like quote, unquote, "treat-esque," I'll go for the one that has more protein. It's still, it's not all or nothing kinda thing, you know?
Melanie Avalon
Yes. And okay, here's my epiphany about it. I think if we didn't live in a processed food world and a world with restaurants where everything is shockingly high calories, like if, if, if it was just normal food, and by normal food, like if the options available were just like steak and vegetables and basically like the way I eat, I would not wanna have calories there. Like I don't think calories would be important because hunger would naturally regulate.
These things are not going to be shockingly high calories. Like if anything, they're probably low because you can eat like a massive amount of steak and it's not relatively that much calories. I think because it's so misleading today with how high calorie these dishes can be, that's why I think it's important, 'cause like people need to know that it's this much. 'Cause of like all the oils and everything and the sugar.
Barry Conrad
'Cause even like if, for example, and you've probably been in the same situation where you're around people and they might just grab like a little, a little snack, like quote, unquote, "little snack," and it could be like a muesli bar or like a little tiny, tiny little snack, but it's actually so many calories, but people don't know that. So they equate the size of a thing to the amount of calories.
It doesn't work that way, and I'll just like walk to the car and I'll burn it off. It doesn't work that way. And also this again, not again, but disclaimer and just to put out there, everyone, you eat what you want. This is not about shaming anyone. It's just I really prefer to know what I'm eating because it is misleading, and also I'd like to know... Mel, I wonder how accurate as well the calorie... I don't know. Like, uh, how ac- how accurate really is it, the labels? Like how can you really tell? 'Cause a calorie is in a calorie is in a calorie. So how do you fully label? Is it a g-estimate, a guesstimate, a ballpark?
Melanie Avalon
I was thinking that too, and it's funny 'cause so when I was looking it up, the rules about it, it said after that, that the calorie numbers must be based... It, it said how accurate does it have to be, and it said the calorie numbers must be based on a reasonable basis, reci- recipe analysis, laboratory testing, databases, et cetera. They do not have to be exact for every plate served, but they cannot be misleading.
The thing though is like what you're saying, I, I think about this a lot. Like I don't... Like when I see calorie counts on different foods, I'm like, I don't... Is that even accurate? You know? Like especially when there will be... This is how you know, 'cause sometimes there'll be like one product that comes in like different versions or varieties or flavors, and they'll all have like the same calories, and it's like, that doesn't seem right. Like if it's like a different, you know, version.
Barry Conrad
And then also the way we all burn calories is very different. So it's not... Even when you, for example, go to a treadmill and say, "I burnt 600 calories," it says that on the treadmill, but that's, that's not accurate 'cause everyone processes food differently, period.
Yeah, it's very, very interesting. And w- for me, exam- for example, if I do see a calorie count, I always overestimate it just to be safe. So if it's 5... Yeah, I do that.
Melanie Avalon
I would too, although ironically, it's kind of the opposite. If I w- if I am like at a restaurant with a calorie menu, I get to... This is the good thing about if you eat really simply.
I massively will cut what I see on the calories because I order it differently. So like if they have, if it's like a meal with, I don't, I don't even know. Basically, there'll be the calorie amount, and then I usually don't, I don't get the sauces or the oils and all the stuff, so I know it's probably less than what it says.
Barry Conrad
Mm-hmm. And as you said, Mel, is it, there's a vast difference between calories from real food, quote, unquote, "real food" versus Ultra-processed bad food. And also like I wanna also get... Maybe we're getting too granular here, but I, I do think it's different because a lot of what we eat can be ultra-processed. Like protein powder is ultra-processed, but it's, quote-unquote, good. So it's just, it's so can be confusing for people, you know, 'cause then people go, "What is real then?
Like what can I have?" So it's important to be... That's why things like this is important for educational purposes, you know?
Melanie Avalon
I don't know if that was on purpose, but that's the perfect segue to our topic for today. Was that on purpose?
Barry Conrad
Yes.
Melanie Avalon
Friends, listeners, so what we decided to do, I'm trying to remember how the... I th- oh, it came up because we had a listener question on a previous episode where they were ask- we, we talked about kale, like kale juice, and our thoughts on kale juice. And so we decided it would be fun to come up with lists of overrated foods, so foods that have like a health halo around them. Like, "Oh, this is like the best thing ever because of XYZ," and is that actually true? What do we think about it? So do you wanna start with one or shall I start with one?
Barry Conrad
You start.
Melanie Avalon
I'm gonna do one. And, and, and I'm doing one that's like a little bit nuanced 'cause I'm not... The, the first one that I'm gonna do, it's actually, I still think it's a great food.
I just think it gets attributed these benefits for something that is actually a very small part of it. So my first nomination for most overrated foods in no particular order is, drum roll please.
Barry Conrad
Drum roll.
Melanie Avalon
Coconut oil. And the reason is people talk about coconut oil all the time because they're like, "It's MCTs," medium chain triglyceride fatty acids. So, so MCTs are a type of fat that is preferentially burned really quickly in the liver. So basically, most fats get broken down first and then processed into energy, and so they're like going through your fat stores essentially. Medium chain fats go straight to the liver and are burned. So you don't easily store them as body fat, and they also in the process speed up your metabolism, so they're, they're thermogenic. They create more body heat. They're easily burned. So they're like, you know, a great fat for weight loss. And people are like, "Have coconut oil because you want MCTs." Okay, so here's the thing. Coconut oil, MCTs are only part of coconut oil. So about 62% of coconut oil is MCTs, but the, the ones that go straight to the liver are caprylic and capric acid. Those are only 10 to 15%. So the rest of the MCTs are lauric acid, which does not do that. It, it... Even though it's an MCT, it, it acts more like a, like a long chain fatty acid. So that means that you can like throw in all this oil, but only really get a little bit of this fast-acting MCTs that people are looking for. And what, what annoys me about it is people will be like, "Coconut oil or MCT oil?" And I'm like, "Those are not the same thing." Like MCT oil is gonna be straight up MCTs that go straight to the liver. Coconut oil, not so much. However, coconut oil has a lot of other benefits, so it has... You know, it's very antiviral. It's good for your gut microbiome. It has... Yeah, so it ha- it has other stuff going for it in those other fats, but it's not just MCT oil. So that's my, that's my nomination.
Barry Conrad
That was a good one, and very elaborate as well, like the, the explanation and... And you know, and, and it's a good one because I actually used to really swear by coconut oil with cooking and whatnot. Like I... Yeah.
But I think it's really played out.
Melanie Avalon
So that's, that's one I got, and we'll have to let e- each other know if, if it was on our list. Was that on your list?
Barry Conrad
It actually was on my list.
Melanie Avalon
Okay. W- for the same reason?
Barry Conrad
Yep.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, your turn.
Barry Conrad
Okay. My one is something that a lot of people may have grown up with or see people eat around them, and that's granola. You know, it's like, you know, it's, it's one of... I reckon it's one of the biggest health halo foods today on supermarket shelves and cafes or whatnot because it's, it's made from oats and nuts and seeds, so most people automatically think it's healthy. It's a healthy breakfast.
And those... Okay, those ingredients can be healthy, but the problem is what happens during the manufacturing. So a lot of like commercial granolas, they're baked with all these sweetened, these oils and they're sweetened with honey, maple syrup, brown sugar, cane sugar, and before you know it, you're having this big bowl of granola and probably a fruit juice on the side or a fruit smoothie. And a single cup can contain 500 calories minimum or more, and that's... And it's the kicker because like serving... The serving size on the packages, again going back to the calories, it's often just half, quarter to half a cup. So that's way less than what most people even pour into a bowl. And then, you know, it's... When people believe a food is healthy, they really do tend to underestimate how many calories it contains. So yeah, just as we were talking about before. So granola isn't bad bad. It's just, it's just very like it... much, much easier to overeat than people realize, and yeah, it has healthy ingredients, but I think it's filled with a lot of stuff as well in stores to make it look pretty, and it's packed with calories. So that's my first one.
Melanie Avalon
I also don't, I don't like granola. I never did. Did you like granola, like granola bars?
Barry Conrad
If it's there, like if it was a camp or something and there was granola or cornflakes or something else, I'd have the granola like in a bowl, but it's not like my go-to. I, I've never bought it like for home. What about you?
Melanie Avalon
I like actively dislike granola bars. I thought they were so like dry and not... I don't know. I just did not like them. But I, yeah, I agree. That one was on my list too for the same reasons.
Barry Conrad
Yeah. 'Cause I don't know if it's a thing h- here yet, but in Australia it's... We love our granola. Go to a cafe, a massive, a massive green or a fruit smoothie with like a big bowl of granola and all the toppings. But it's very, like, healthy
Melanie Avalon
Loose leaf granola.
Barry Conrad
Yeah. You know what I mean? So it's like a very much like a influency type scene-y thing, you know?
Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. Okay, that's a good one.
Okay, I'm gonna do agave nectar, which I feel like used to be a bigger thing. Maybe it's not as much anymore, but it had its heyday where people were talking about it's like the best, quote, natural sweetener that... because it has like a low glycemic index. They would say it was good for, you know, like diabetics. The problem is it's ridiculously high in fructose. It's one of the highest fructose sweeteners on the market. So metabolically... and, and people can check out the interview I had with Rick Johnson. He has a whole, a whole thing on fr- he's like one of the fructose guys. Fructose, not good for the effects it has on the, on the liver. Yeah, it, it can be really, really metabolically inflammatory. So yeah, agave nectar.
Barry Conrad
Nice. Uh, yeah, again, like that's something you see a lot in the stores as well.
My next one is smoothies and juices, which is a segue from my last. It's, it's paired very, uh, popularly with, uh, big bowls of granola, smoothies and juices, and it's one nutrition researchers have talked about for years. You know, your body simply responds differently to drinking calories than eating them, so you can... And I think we answered a question about this on the show a couple weeks ago, Mel. I can't remember exactly, but someone was asking about putting... you know, having a s- a smoothie to break their fast and, and what was in it, and how much, how easy it is to consume so many calories from that drink because of the fruit. So when you eat an apple, for example, you're chewing that thing. The fiber's intact, digestion slows down, your brain's getting the, the fullness signals stronger. When you juice four apples, you removed most of that fiber and concentrated the sugars, so you don't even realize you're, you're do- you're drinking that and consuming it. Even smoothies, you know, although they're better than juices sometimes because they retain more fiber, they can still contain four or five servings of fruit that you'd never sit down and eat whole. I can't do that whole. I get full. So that's why studies consistently find liquids generally don't satisfy hunger as well as solid foods, and that's also why I don't know if I could do like a, like a smoothie, you know, like one of those smoothie diet things. It's just like, it s- sounds depressing. I wanna eat and ch- and chew my food.
Melanie Avalon
To that point, I think if we were to rank... Actually, we could do... Maybe we'll do this at the end, like which one we think is like the worst. I, I think, I actually think smoothies are up there just because there's such a halo effect, and they're, like you said, they're putting so many calories into a small form, and then they're stripping out, like all the fiber.
Yeah. I, I feel like they're like it's a very large gap between the halo effect and what's actually happening.
Barry Conrad
Yep. Okay, what do you have next for us?
Melanie Avalon
Okay, so this one is similar, but anything that says made with real fruit. I think I have yet to see something that says made with real fruit where you look at the ingredients and the fruit is just like a whole ingredient fruit in there. It's usually like a concentrate, like a, you know, a processed form of the fruit. Like it's such a misleading thing.
So just eat the fruit. Like just eat fruit rather than like the quote "made with real fruit."
Barry Conrad
Okay, this one is gonna be... We may get a few messages with this one, but gluten-free products. You know, I, I just think, okay, zooming out, yes, some people are gluten... like, you know, they're int- they're intolerant and things like that, so you, you need gluten-free products. But the reason why I brought it up, it's because, yes, if you have celiac disease, it's important that you have gluten-free foods.
But if you don't, you know, research shows like that gluten-free eating is inherently just gonna be healthier for you. Like in fact, studies have found that many gluten-free packaged foods contain less fiber and protein because manufacturers just replace that with wheat, wheat with refined starches like rice flour or starch. Like, so the label, it just, it sounds healthier. "Hey, it's gluten-free." But nutritionally, it's just not always that black and white. Like you walked down the aisle and hear people hold... see people hold up two packets of something, and one person will say, "Hey, I- I'll get the gluten-free option." It's like that doesn't make it necessarily, quote-unquote, better for you. So that's very halo effect to me. What do you reckon?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. No, really similar. I would put three things in a similar category, which is like gluten-free, things labeled gluten-free, and particularly like processed foods labeled gluten-free, lab- labeled keto, or labeled vegan. Because it's basically a way to apply-- like appeal to somebody who ha- who has a dietary restriction that they have imposed for health reasons and then just slap that label on a processed food and not, you know, make it vegan or keto or gluten-free. Yeah, like you said, like then people think it's like this healthy food when it's not.
It's a way to make like processed foods look healthier, even if it's technically keto or paleo, or sorry, keto or vegan or gluten-free. Okay. I would say... Let me look at one of my other ones.
Barry Conrad
There's actually so many.
Melanie Avalon
I know. So I think kombucha, I would say. So people think it's like this... They put all kombucha into this one category of this, you know, super bacteria probiotic rich drink that's good for you, but so many of the kombuchas on the market are, you know, really high in sugar. They-- You're not getting a fermented food, you're getting a drink, so again, the problems of like stripping out the fiber rather than getting like sauerkraut or kimchi.
Oh, and then so there's been some studies, so like So there are studies that support that they can have the strains, but we also don't know, you know, what actually reaches the colon alive based on the processing and, and everything that goes into that. I would say if you're getting kombucha that you want to really look at the ingredients, you wanna make sure it's not tons of added sugar. Yeah, I would, I wouldn't go to it as a go-to health drink.
Barry Conrad
Yep. I agree.
Even-- man, it's so funny. My next one I'm gonna... I actually don't want to talk about this one because I actually like eating this, but I do know the difference. Sushi. I love sushi so much, but not all sushi deserves the, this massive healthy reputation. It's like when people say, "All alcohol is bad," or, "All alcohol is, you know, poison, you shouldn't drink at all." It's because, like, traditional Japanese sushi is built around, you know, real fish and seaweed and rice and stuff. Many... Like a lot of Western rolls, they're re- they're completely different. Like, they're really different. They have tempura, they have spicy sauces, crunchy, like Kellogg Cornflake-type toppings, like sweet sauces. Like, some specialty rolls can have like seven to 800 calories before you even order appetizers, and they're small, little things, tiny, little, tasty things. And research on dietary patterns consistently show it's the overall composition of the meal that matters, not just 'cause it's called sushi. So my bottom line on this is salmon sashimi and a deep-fried volcano roll, they're not nutritionally the same thing. So it's important to notice the difference.
It can almost kinda be seen as fast food in a way, like, you know, if you're having that sort of sushi. So that's a tough one.
Melanie Avalon
And also with that, a lot of the ingredient... a lot of the condiments that go with the sushi, especially in the US, I feel are, like, not real. So like, like wasabi that's, like, dyed green or like the ginger where they add like the red dyes. Like, there's a lot... The condiments can really be an issue with the sushi I think.
Okay, this is one that I talked about, I think on a prior episode, but it's something I learned from Dr. Jason Fung's book, his most recent book, which is "The Hunger Code," and he talks about how... And this one's kind of ironic, but any label that communicates... We-- It's a lit- it's similar to the gluten-free thing, but it's a little bit different. So like any, any, like, benefit, like, on the product that makes it seem like it's healthy, so like, "Good for heart health," or like, "Healthy source of blah blah," or especially like, "Low fat," people tend to eat way more if they think it has this, like, health label on it, like a healthy label on it. So-- And it tends to be on things, again, that are processed. So anything that says like healthy or like the benefits associated, way overrated. I mean, the best example of this is, like, walking down the cereal box aisle and all the things are like, "American Heart Association approved," or like, "Great for heart health." And it's like we are on the cereal, like the processed cereal ar- ar- aisle. These foods are all, like, processed grains and sugar. Literally, that's like what they are. Like find me, find me a cereal on the cereal aisle that is not processed grains and/or sugar.
Barry Conrad
I agree. You can't find it.
Melanie Avalon
I don't think-- I don't know that you can. Like I actually... Even like in Whole Foods where they have like healthy version, quote, he- here we go, quote, like, "healthy versions," it's still... Or it might be like rice or corn or whatever it is, but it's some sort of processed grain-like product with some sort of processed sugar, even if it's like, quote, "honey" or something.
No, yeah. Not good.
Barry Conrad
This is getting us so fired up.
Melanie Avalon
I know, I know. It's so annoying, honestly.
Barry Conrad
Which leads me to my next one, which is activated charcoal foods. Activated charcoal foods, black ice cream, black burgers, black lemonade. You know, I think it's... You know, it looks cool. Scientifically, I don't think it necessarily adds much.
Activated charcoal is useful in emergency medicine for certain poisonings, but there's no, there's little to no evidence that charcoal lattes or ice cream, quote-unquote, "detox" people or deto- detoxes our lives or gives us a healthy reset to digestion or in- increases or improves longevity or anything like that. And in fact, charcoal can actually interfere with the absorption of medications, which I didn't know until I researched that. But yeah, it looks awesome though, and it sounds like, "Wow, I need to try that activated charcoal stuff." You know?
Melanie Avalon
Oh, wait. Yep, yep. I used to brush my teeth with it-
Barry Conrad
Same
Melanie Avalon
... which I realized was not good 'cause it like strips out the nutrients from your teeth. Okay, so this one's like a little bit layered because I, I think whole grains are a problem to begin with or might be or probably are.
But for people who think multi-grain, just the word multi-grain, they think it means whole grain, but it doesn't mean that. It means it's... All, all it means is that there are multiple types of grain in it. But it can still be made, you know, primarily from refined flour. It can have very few grains or seeds on top of that. The only... So if you want whole grain, it has to say 100% whole grain.
Barry Conrad
Right.
Melanie Avalon
Do we have any more or?
Barry Conrad
Yeah, we do have more. I-- This is one that might annoy some people maybe. Collagen drinks. I say that with a grimace because, yes, it does have some evidence for sure. Collagen supplements have some evidence, but that's not the problem. The hype is the problem because now someone can put the most tiny amount of it in something, package it up, and say it's a collagen drink. And several randomized trials suggest collagen peptides only modestly, only modestly improve skin elasticity after about eight to 12 weeks. So the evidence for muscle growth, fat loss, or dramatically reversing aging is a lot weaker than the hype that is put out there about it.
So it... There's just... Basically what we're getting at here, listeners as well, the more I'm hearing both of our- Our choices here, which a lot of them do have crossover, is just how much marketing is out there. There's so much marketing
Melanie Avalon
And like once it becomes the packaged form of whatever it's supposed to be, I think that's like when the problem comes in, especially like s- related to collagen drinks like bone broth. Like it's one thing to like make your own bone broth at home with minimal ingredients, you know, pulling the n- the nutrients out of the bones. So many of the bone broths, like if you go buy prepackaged bone broth, so many of them, like the list of ingredients is shocking, like additives, like just all the additives and like even sugar and f- and like flavors.
It's like, why are you adding flavor? Like you want... The flavor is the, the bone broth. Yeah. I think the takeaway for a lot of this is that the processed food packaging industry and the, and the halo effect and the greenwashing is just rampant when it comes to food.
Barry Conrad
Absolutely. And a- actually it was, it was really helpful to walk down this list together because it's re- just reminding myself like just to be more aware of it, you know?
Melanie Avalon
So shall we have our proverbial breaking of the fast moment?
Barry Conrad
Let's do it without any halo effect foods.
Melanie Avalon
No halo effect foods. Okay. So I'm actually gonna pull a Barry, and I'm gonna do something that I went to recently but did not eat there.
Barry Conrad
Nice. Okay, I can't wait.
Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, Barry. This place, it just opened very recently in Atlanta, so it's called Koshu Club. So it recently opened in Atlanta, and it is led by a James Beard Award finalist chef, oh, and Michelin Guide starred chef Jay Trent Harris. It's the owners of another restaurant that has a lot of awards called Mujo Atlanta. And oh my goodness, Barry, so it was literally, it is my perfect first date spot, hands down.
And I really wanna go back for the menu because I only got drinks, but we did get walked through the menu, and I was like, I think I might go there for my birthday because the menu was that epic. But it was this like swanky Japanese steakhouse, and it, when I went, when I got there, it was daylight outside, and you walk in, and it's like, bam. It's like being, it's like midnight. Like it was so dark. I loved it. And then the lighting was very like, like lamps and like sexy and really nice like, you know, wood everywhere. Um, they had an incredible sommelier who knew all about the wines. All of the wines on the list were organic and lower alcohol. The service from what we experienced was on point. Something that I love is that you can make bar reservations. I love when you can make bar reservations, so then you can actually like, you know, plan a date, and you don't have to, um, stress about like finding a place at the bar. So that was great. Um, but the menu, oh my goodness. When he walked us through the menu, I think it was, we felt bad because we knew we weren't gonna order anything, but he was like, "Do you wanna hear about the menu?" We're like, "Yeah, we wanna hear about the menu." And I was really hoping my friend was gonna order something 'cause I was like, oh my gosh, because the spiel they gave us was prob- I'm not kidding, it was probably 15 minutes. Like it was so long. It was great. It was great. We heard about every single item. But, um, yeah, so let's go to the menu.
Barry Conrad
It sounds like even just the first impression was awesome. Like I can, now I'm not surprised that you wanna go there.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And the, the menu looked so good.
Barry Conrad
Is it the one where it says, "Please view an example of our current menu"? That one?
Melanie Avalon
Yes. And I'll let you know if this was c- if this was what it was. Okay. So, and I wish I'd been paying more, I wish I'd been paying more attention to the spiel. I was really honestly just kinda stressing the whole time.
I was like, "This guy is saying so much and we're not gonna order anything." Okay, so the first thing, I don't speak the... So zensai, I don't know what that means. Oh, so this must be like the, like the starters 'cause the first thing, there's like a salad. Do you see anything you would want from that section?
Barry Conrad
You know what jumped out at me? A couple things, but I reckon t- if I had to choose between the fatty tuna and the, the otoro aburi, which is the seared fatty tuna with wasabi and kimi joyu or the-
Melanie Avalon
We're gonna butcher all of these names by the way, listeners
Barry Conrad
... Sorry, listeners. I think I'm gonna go with that, which is the Jonah crab bechamel taru- tarutaru, and I could be getting that completely wrong, but it sounds delicious to me.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I would, I would be down actually for the crab as well.
I would say the wagyu that they have, but they actually, I think they have a lot of other wagyu options later. Then there is... Okay, so this is, oh, sh- this is a sashimi option with Japanese sea bream, scallop, king prawn, and bluefin tuna. Oh, I want that. That pr- that is what I want for sure.
Barry Conrad
Actually same. I'm copying you. That sounds so good.
Melanie Avalon
That's so perfect. Wait, wait, wait, wait, we have to look up sea bream. Wait, was sea bream the one I was excited to find?
Barry Conrad
Is it with low mercury?
Melanie Avalon
Was it the, was it the one, remember the one that had like multiple names? Let's see. I'm gonna see what other names f- for it are.
Barry Conrad
This typically contains less than 0.1 parts per million of, like ppm of mercury.
Melanie Avalon
Was the other one that we saw por- porgy?
Barry Conrad
No, I don't I don't think so.
Melanie Avalon
So the other... Oh, gilthead sea bream. Wasn't that, wasn't that the one I was looking for?
Barry Conrad
Yeah.
Melanie Avalon
Or was it just one I saw? I think that was, gilthead sea bream. I remember we saw something and I was like, "I want this fish so bad," and I thought the other one was gilthead sea bream, the other name for it. Maybe not.
Either way, it looks low mercury, so that's great. And then scallop, yes. Prawn. Oh, they're using the word prawn. Yes, and then bluefin tuna. Bluefin tuna might be high.
Barry Conrad
I wonder how much, like how big these portions are, you know?
Melanie Avalon
Oh, bluefin tuna is high mercury, so you can have that or we can sub it out.
Barry Conrad
I'll have it.
Melanie Avalon
Just ever since I got mercury poisoning, it's like not, it's not fun.
Barry Conrad
You need to tell me more about that later 'cause-
Melanie Avalon
You can have it. Okay. Then caviar Would you want some caviar?
Barry Conrad
Yes.
Melanie Avalon
I don't really know the different types, so
Barry Conrad
So there's two types. There's os- ossetra and a golden ossetra.
So the golden ossetra sounds great, so let's just go with that. Toasted shokupan, roasted chive cream, and kimoburo. It sounds, it just sounds decadent, this whole menu so far.
Melanie Avalon
It does, and it matches the vibe, like I said. Okay, so now we are at... I think this is the, oh, this is the main dishes. And you know what? I do not see, I do not see what I w- oh, no, I do not see the one that I wanted at the time.
So they have a lot of, it's all... Is it all wagyu? All of the, all of the meat is wagyu. So they have American wagyu, Japanese wagyu, and they say the farm that it comes from, which I love. The one I don't see is one of them was called, like, it was called, like, winter something, and it just looked really, I don't know. I like the word winter. Oh, it was called, like, maybe, like, snow wagyu or something. It, it looked cool. Either way, they, uh, what would you get, uh, for your entree? No, sorry, for your robatayaki?
Barry Conrad
Robata- oh, you know what? I wish we could just, like, I wish there was an app that could just, like, we put our finger on the screen and it just says it in the right, you know?
Melanie Avalon
We probably should be using, like, a translat- there probably is a translator app, and we could be pronouncing everything correctly.
Barry Conrad
You know what? We should probably do that, like, have it on hand.
Melanie Avalon
We should probably up our game.
Barry Conrad
Yes. Gosh, I don't know.
This, listeners, if you're looking at this menu with us in real time, you'll, you'll see how hard this would be. I think I'm gonna go with... Oh, man. I think I'm gonna go with the olive strip loin, which is a 8-ounce Japanese wagyu, A5 Japanese wagyu, wagyu. What about you, Mel?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that's what I thought. I thought that you c- it's really hard to get wagyu as a grass-fed, grass-finished. Although, well, regardless, I probably would go based on the cut, so I think I would want the filet.
Or I might ask them what a Hokkaido tenderloin is. I might ask, like, what that actually is. But yeah, the filet is a 6-ounce American wagyu from Black Hawk Farms. They also have king salmon. Mm. I, I'm gonna get king salmon for dessert, so.
Barry Conrad
This is, it's, this is tough. Like, I haven't looked at a... Usually I get two of things, but I think this place just looks so elegant. I wanna be able to, like, en- enjoy the choice that I make and just stick to it.
Um, I would get the one that I got, but I would n- maybe if I, I went there and saw as well, like, what it looked like on the plate, I might change my mind on my choices. Out of the wagyus, I should say. Everything else I, um, I stand by. And there's, there's sauces there, too, so I would probably get a sauce charcuterie sauce and some miso soup 'cause I love miso soup so much, and there is an asparagus with karashi miso side, so I'll get that.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, you're filling it out.
Barry Conrad
Gotta do it.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and I would just, I'd be good and probably get salmon for dessert. And yeah, I don't think they have their drink menu on here, but like I said, there was... Okay, they have a lot of sake.
Is it sa- is, is it called sa- sake? They had a lot of sake.
Barry Conrad
Sake.
Melanie Avalon
Are you, do you drink that at all?
Barry Conrad
I do drink it, and it's, it's really, it's an acquired taste, but once I acquired it, man, it's so good. And so, it's so deadly as well. You really feel it.
Melanie Avalon
So I think you would probably have to get that because they're, like, known for that. And I know, I, I was, like, in my happy place. Like, they had so many wine options, so I was good.
I got a really good Chenin Blanc from the Loire Valley, and then I got a, I think it was a Cab Franc, also from the Loire Valley, and it just so happened to be, like, the first one was, like, one winery, and then, like, the second one was, like, a winery that was his protege. So he, like, I think he, like, gave that plot of land to, like, his protege, and then he started the second winery. Basically, they know the whole story behind all the wines, which is really cool.
Barry Conrad
What a, what a great find, Mel. Like, this sounds like honestly, like, such a lush spot.
Melanie Avalon
I know. I wanna go back. I really think I might go for my birthday.
Barry Conrad
So exciting.
Melanie Avalon
So well, this was absolutely wonderful. Listeners, we hope you had a good time with us today.
You can check out the show notes. They will be at ifpodcast.com/episode487. They will have links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out. And you can get all of the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can submit questions by emailing questions@ifpodcast.com. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are IFPodcast. I am MelanieAvalon, and Barry is Barry_Conrad. Yes, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?
Barry Conrad
That's all the things. Thank you guys so much for tuning in once again. We appreciate you so much, and we will catch you next time.
Melanie Avalon
All right, talk to you next week.
Barry Conrad
Talk to you next week.
Melanie Avalon
Bye.
Barry Conrad
Bye.
Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.
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