Welcome to Episode 496 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. 

SHOW NOTES

FEATURED RESTAURANT; https://www.rpmrestaurants.com/rpm-seafood-chicago/menus/

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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21148388/ 

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 496 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm joined by my co-host, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out melanieavalon.com and barryconradofficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions@ifpodcast.com or by going to ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you.

Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 496 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad
Mel, I'm doing so good, and I feel especially just like, you know, when you go away and you have perspective because you get out of your environment. So I went upstate over the weekend, and I've just got-- up-upstate New York, I should say to the listeners, and got back a couple of days ago, maybe a day and a half ago, and it was absolutely amazing. It was a place called Fleischmann's, and it's upstate. It wasn't too far from where I went, spent Christmas in December last year, and it was-- the only difference is it wasn't freezing this time. But also, to say, Mel, it was not hot. It was perfect. It was, like, sunny but cool. Just the best time ever.

Like, had the most incredible steak. I wanted to say this so badly. Had a m- like, these amazing steaks flown in from somewhere. One of, um, one of our mates did that. Like, the most amazing food and wine, murder mystery dinner. Like, do you like murder-

Melanie Avalon
You did a murder mystery dinner?

Barry Conrad
It was awesome.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. Okay. Tell me more. Wait, okay, okay. Okay. Okay, guys, did you-- Was it, like, a hosted thing that you guys did yourselves with, like, a kit, or did you go somewhere?

Barry Conrad
There was not a kit. One of, one of the people who you know, which I'm not gonna say, created it, and it was and it was incredible, and it was honestly the most m- like, thought out, detailed.

Melanie Avalon
It was completely self-created.

Barry Conrad
It was completely self-created, and there was, like, as far as, like, having a laptop there with a, a created landing page that the person that got murdered created, and you had to guess, like, the code to get in. There were, like, clues.

There were envelopes for different-- There was paperwork that the police would reveal each round to reve-reveal different evidence. It was so thought out, and my character was a journalist called Theo Grant. These were all, like, associates of the person that got, you know, murdered hypothetically. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Were you the murderer?

Barry Conrad
I was not. But I, I'm so bummed that I didn't-- Like, I should have followed my gut. I should have followed my gut, and I didn't. I got sucked in big time.

Melanie Avalon
Can I ask some questions?

Barry Conrad
Go.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So were the characters predetermined who was gonna be who, or did you, like, draw from a hat?

Barry Conrad
It was predetermined, so it was thought out.

Melanie Avalon
It was thought out. So it's, it was planned who the murderer was, that, and who gets murdered.

That's interesting. Did everybody know this was gonna happen? Like, were you told to, like, bring stuff that you c- so that you could be in character? Or was it like, "Hey, we're playing a murder mystery party. Surprise"?

Barry Conrad
There was no costumes or anything. We knew the murder mystery was happening. We just were told just to come as we are and at a certain time of night. So this was the night, this was the second-- No, this was the last night, actually, of the whole stay, the three-night stay, and we just had to turn up.

We got our envelopes with, um... It was really exciting to, like, have a pre, like a, like, an assigned envelope with your name and your character, and I think, like, you know, Mel, like your friends, you sort of know who's gonna have a good poker face, who's gonna, you know? And it was sort of like every role was really thought out in that way, like, based on people's personality, which is really awesome. Makes sense.

Melanie Avalon
Wow.

Barry Conrad
It was so fun, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
I'm real-- No, I li- I live for these. I love these. I've, I've planned quite a few in my life.

Barry Conrad
And do you know what else, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
What?

Barry Conrad
Every s- like, there were three, like, during the night, we all had to, like, have different cocktails that we made as well. So it was all, like, drinking, and it was just so fun. It was so fun.

Anyway. What were you gonna say? You'd done a few in your life? You planned a few?

Melanie Avalon
Quite a few, yes. I'm all about these.

And, and there's a lot of, um, that's why I'm very impressed. I've, I think I've only done one where I, I came up with everything 'cause there's also, like, kits that you can use to do them.

Barry Conrad
Kits?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, there's tons of murder mystery kits. There's escape room kits, and there's murder mystery kits.

You haven't seen these? They not have these in Australia? If you go to, like, a TJ Maxx or Marshalls, they have, like, twenty million of them.

Barry Conrad
But do you think, as someone who has done this before yourself, do you think it's better to create it, or do you think it's better to use the kit? This is my first one, so I don't know.

Melanie Avalon
So I was actually just thinking about this. I mean, if you have the time and resources to, like, create it all yourself, I mean, that, that's amazing.

What I like about the kits is they usually bring in-- Well, they make it easy 'cause they come up with, like, all the things, and then you can, it depends on the kit, but you can play along too if, if you want, you know? Like, everybody can play along 'cause you don't know the answer. Like, and by you, I mean the person, like, the host. And they c- they usually come with a lot of stuff, like, you know, like, which I'm sure was created Like you said, was created for, for you guys for this. But they come with like, you know, like whatever you need, like the letters and like the... I don't know. They come with like stuff you can use with it. Yeah. If I had-- So I wanna manifest like, I wanna manifest like blowing up my brands and buying a bigger place, and then I'm, then I'm gonna have... I'm just thinking about how I w- I wanna host one of these, but I c- I don't have enough room in my apartment.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. Well, hopefully I can be invited. I think it's just so f- I think it's just so fun. It's my first one I've ever been part of before ever.

Melanie Avalon
That's amazing.

Barry Conrad
Well, I just think it's, it's also fun to see people, like automatically just like assume this character 'cause like everyone knows they have to like play, you know? And, and like they just like get straight into it, which is so fun.

It's awesome.

Melanie Avalon
Now I'm really laughing thinking about some of the ones I've hosted where people knew ahead of time, so they came like in character and yeah, it's so fun. It's so funny to see people like play characters and stuff. Ah, I love that.

Barry Conrad
And bluff as well. I'm like, "You are such a good bluffer." Like, what the?

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Awesome. Yeah, I was just gonna say, going u- going upstate always sounds so fancy. I think I've said this before on the show. It sounds like something from like a novel, like the 1900s.

"We're going upstate." You can't really go upstate here. There's nowhere upstate to go. I mean, you can go to like, I guess, the North Georgia Mountains.

Barry Conrad
That is upstate, right?

Melanie Avalon
I mean, yeah, but we don't really call it that.

Barry Conrad
What do you mean? What do you call it?

Melanie Avalon
It's just funny, like I feel like going upstate is such a phrase, and I see it in so many novels and songs, but it's only when you're like living in the Northeast. Like if you're in LA, you're not gonna be like, "I'm going upstate." Like, nobody says that. Or like here we don't say it, but you guys say it all the time, and it just sounds so cool and fancy schmancy.

Barry Conrad
It's actually very Melanie Avalon coded. I feel like you'd actually love an upstate New York trip. You would love it.

Melanie Avalon
I think so.

Barry Conrad
How about you? Tell me about you.

Melanie Avalon
Well, last week I was gonna tell you n- my number two, but I changed my mind. I'm gonna tell you something else instead because I realized it's more timely.

I'll tell you the o- and on the other one, I'll have more developments next time we talk so like I'll, I'll hold off on that one. But friends, you guys have been begging for this. You've been begging. I've been begging. And I finally did it, and it's incredible. And when I say it's incredible, I didn't like actually make it, so I can say that. I mean, I designed it, but okay. So I know we talk, I talk all the time about the importance of drinking like organic low alcohol wine, low sulfite wine. You will feel so much different. So that's why I love dry farm wines. I love dry farm wines. I also like... That's when I g- when I go to restaurants, I try to like look up the wines and, and find what's organic and there hasn't been a resource to make that easy, so I created it. Okay. Go to purvine.app, P-U-R-V-I-N-E dot A-P-P. So what this is, and the thing that took longest, 'cause I was able to create it relatively quickly with this company called Lovable, which helps you build websites and apps. But the thing that took long was I wanted to populate... So Barry, I wanted to populate the catalog. It's basically a searchable catalog of organic, lower alcohol, low sulfite wines, but you can also research any wine, which I'm gonna get to. But so to populate the catalog, I literally, I had five years of wine tasting notes. E- so every bottle of dry farm wines, every like wine I've ever tasted, I have taken notes on for the past five years. So I had three and a half full wine journals. So I had to individually scan every single page, and then I had to train ChatGPT and Claude to turn that into like an Excel document, so that I can then drop that into the catalog and then fill out the catalog. And then I had to individually look up the pictures. But yeah, it's there now, and so what you can do with it, you can like, you can choose like your alcohol content, so there's like a slider, so you can like choose how much alcohol you want. You can choose the sulfites. You can search by anything. And if the wine-- And then when you click on it, there'll be like tasting notes and like all about the wine, the producer, the, the varietal. You can... And the, and then you can like write a review of it. You can add your own tasting notes. If you create an account, which is free, completely free, that lets you like save wines to lists. That's what I think lets you write... I'm not sure if that lets you write the reviews. That, that gives you basically access to all the things, but most importantly, that's what gets you reward points. And so I have a reward catalog where you can get things like a lot of my supplements, my coffee. Uh, what else is in the reward, reward catalog element? There's like a lot of fun stuff there. And yeah, so you can accumulate points and get rewards all for free. And, and it's mostly 'cause I really need help like populating it out with more wines, and so like every time you add a wine to the catalog yourself, you get 10 reward points.

Melanie Avalon
And it's actually even easier because now I added a scanner. And so if you're like looking at a wine bottle, you just scan the front of the wine and the back of the wine. If it's in the catalog, Purvine will pull it up, and then yay, there, there it is. If it's in the catalog, not that specific one, but like the producer, then it'll tell you like, "You know, we don't have this wine, but we have the producer.

Like, here are other wines by them." If it's not in the catalog, and this is what I just added, it will look up the wine online and figure out if it's organic or not and what the sulfites are. And if it's organic, it'll add it to the catalog and then give you a chance to review it, and then you get points by doing that. So if you wanna go, 'cause I really wanna get more wines from like Whole Foods and like Trader Joe's and, you know, Fresh Market and Sprouts. So if you guys wanna go and, um, start scanning wines to look them up, it'll look it up, it'll add to the catalog, and you're gonna get 10 points every single time that it gets added as long as you add a review, although you have to... You're supposed to personally taste it for the points. But I was gonna say one more thing, and then you can redeem the rewards and yeah. But, but point is, I think it's gonna be a very valuable resource. I'm using it now all the time for myself. And at the beginning, I was stressed because it only had like, you know, 300 something wines in it. But now, like I said, you can scan any wine, and it'll figure it all out for you. So what do you think, Barry? Purevine

Barry Conrad
Melanie, amazing. Congratulations.

That's, that's so-- I, I said this before, but I have to say it again. Like, I'm just-- this makes total sense for you. You-- I mean, this is a total, like, shoo-in. Like, it fits like a glove for you because you love your wine. You've been doing this forever. You know, like, it's not something that's just a fad or just some new gimmick to sell or spruik. This is something that you've always been genuinely interested in, and it makes total sense, and sign me up. That's all I have to say about that.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you. I basically-- I wanted it to be like Vivino, if people have used that. That's where you can scan and look up wines, but for these organic wines, these lower alcohol wines. And what's really-- and I'm not making this up. Like, Vivino, they're great. I use them a lot to look up wines.

However, it, like-- it very rarely works for me. Like, I scan wines, and it doesn't usually, like, pull up the wine. This thing works so good. Like, it's incredible. It identifies-- As long as you give it the front and the back, it will find your wine. I'm, I'm very impressed by it. Like, Vivino needs to, like, use whatever technology this one is using because it's, it's really good at it, and it's so good at, like, researching for you and-

Barry Conrad
Sounds like it just takes the thinking out of, you know, the decision, which is a l- what a lot of people probably might stop them from buying something because they don't want to research it, but it just, like, sounds fast and easy and user-friendly, you know?

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. And I'm hoping-- and, like, the more that we get the catalog built up, then there'll be just, like, hopefully one day, like, thousands of wines in it. And so then you can s- read reviews and oh, oh, oh, last thing, last thing. It learns your tastes.

So the more things that you rate, so rate a lot of wines that you like or don't like, and it learns your taste. So then it will, like, when it-- when a wine-- if you're, like, looking for a wine, it'll be like, it's so specific. It'll, it'll tell you, like, why it thinks you might like this or not because you like XYZ. It'll give caveats. It might be like, "Oh, like this is a fruity wine, so we think you like it. However, we-- you don't normally like wi-wines from, like, this region." So it's, it's really smart, and the more that you use it, the smarter it will get so purevine.app.

Barry Conrad
So good, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
Actually, you know what, guys? I'm gonna give you a coupon that I'm making up right now.

When you sign up, use the coupon code IFPODCAST, and you'll get ten points to get you started. Just making a note to make that code.

Barry Conrad
That's so good.

Melanie Avalon
So on that note, shall we jump into some things?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. I have a study to start us off with, and I am so excited about this study. Are you ready, Barry? It's so fun.

It's so fun. So this study is called Thought for Food: Imagined Consumption Reduces Actual Consumption. It was published in Science in two thousand and ten. And so the takeaway of this study or what it was looking at, we have this idea that, like, if you think about a food, it's gonna make you crave it more. It's gonna make you, like, want it. The researchers in this, though, were interested in if you not just, like, thought about a food once but actually, like, thought about eating the food and, like, thought about eating, like, a lot of the food, would that actually make you want it less? Like, would it habituate yourself to it? So kind of like when you're normally eating, like, the, the first bite might s- taste, like, amazing, and then by the tenth bite, you're like, you know, it doesn't-- you don't want it quite as much. It's not quite as amazing. So they were curious, could you imagine eating a lot and then reduce your consumption or your desire for the food? And they did five different studies to, to, like, figure out what all was going on. So I'm gonna walk us through all five of them. So, and they did most of it with M&M's. So, okay, so the first one-- Oh, and they, they wanted to see basically was it-- if they-- if people did eat less, was it habituation or satiation? And what I mean by that is satiation is, like, you're actually, like, full. You, um, you know, don't have a desire to eat. Or is it habituation, where you just don't really want that one specific food? So the first experiment was fifty-one parti-participants, and they wanted to see if repeated imagined eating reduced actual eating. So the participants completed thirty-three imagined repetitive actions broken down into... Some of it was about putting coins, quarters in laundry machines, and some was eating-- imagining eating M&M's. So sometimes they would imagine putting thirty-three quarters into a laundry machine. Sometimes they would imagine putting in thirty quarters and then eating three M&M's. And then sometimes they would imagine putting in three quarters and eating thirty M&M's. And then after that, they were given M&M's, and they, and they could eat as many as they wanted. So they wanted to see how much they ate. So the participants who imagined eating thirty M&M's consumed less than those who didn't think about M&M's at all or imagined eating only three, and it's pretty, pretty significant. So, so the people who did not imagine eating M&M's ate four point zero eight grams of M&M-- of M&M's after that. The ones who imagined eating three ate four point one eight grams, so very similar. But the people who imagined eating thirty M&M's only ate two point two one, so like almost they-- like half as less, which is-- or half, half as much, which is, um, kind of crazy. So then they did an-another experiment, also with fifty-one participants, and they wanted to see was the result caused by the eating imagery or the quarter task.

Melanie Avalon
So for this one, they had-- So basically for this, what they were independently verifying was whether the participants imagined eating M&M's or manipulat-manipulating the quarters or whether they imagined the action three or thirty times. And they found with this, with this one that the participants who imagined eating thirty M&M's con-consumed fewer M&M-M&M's than those who imagined eating only three. So those who imagined eating three Ate 5.57 grams, and those who imagined eating 30 ate 3.23 grams. So again, it's almost like half the amount.

Oh, this-- But this is what they were checking. Doing the quarter task 30 times did not reduce M&M consumption. So if they did three imagined quarter actions, it was three imagined putting the quarter in, it was 4.31 grams. If it was 30 quarters, it was 5.55 grams. So it wasn't just like rep- repetition, it actually had to be actually eating M&M's. It couldn't be like a quarter thing or like a repetition with something else. And then for the third experiment, they had 68 people, and this was-- They weren't-- They wanted to see is merely thinking about or handling the food enough to make this happen, or do you have to actually eat it? So for this one, they had the participants either eat three or 30 M&M's in their mind or move three or 30 M&M's into a bowl in their mind. And when they did this, those that imagined eating it reduced-- it reduced their consumption. So if they imagined eating three, then they ate 7.59 grams after, but when they imagined eating 30, they ate 4.28 grams after. So we're seeing like a similar drop for all of these. But imagining moving them around, it actually made them eat more M&M's later.

So when they imagined moving three, they ate 3.87, but when they imagined moving 30, they ate 7, which is crazy. So basically like, um, if they thought about eating M&M's, they ate less M&M's, but if they imagined just moving them, they ate more M&M's. So you basically have to, um, you have to think about actually eating it. You can't just think about like moving food around or like looking at food. And then for experiment number four, they wanted to see was the effect specific to M&M's or to like the imagined food. So they had participants imagining-- Forty-one participants, they imagined eating either three or 30 cheddar cheese cubes or three or 30 M&M's, and then they could eat as much cheese as they want- as they wanted. And they found that if you ate 30 cheese cubes, as expected, it reduced how much cheese they ate later. But if they imagined eating 30 M&M's, it did not change. It didn't really like break-- uh, change how much cheese they ate. So basically, it's very specific. It's not like you can imagine eating a lot of M&M's and then eat less cheese. You gotta imagine eating a lot of cheese if you want to eat less cheese.

And then the last one was experiment number five, did the participants like the food less or did they want it less? So there's a difference between liking and wanting. Liking is, you know, you can like something but not want it at that moment.

Melanie Avalon
I guess, I don't know if you would like want something that you don't like. In any case, they were trying to figure out the difference. So this was 81 participants, and in this one, they rated how much they liked cheese. Then they imagined eating either three or 30 cheese cubes, and then they played a progressively demanding game to earn cheese, and they would like basically like get cheese. And every fourth click earned a point, and the, the, the participants could stop whenever the cheese no longer seemed worth the effort. And those who imagined eating 30 cheese cubes worked-- they worked less to obtain the cheese. They basically like tapped out earlier. They were like, "I'm done. I'm not work- I'm not working for cheese anymore." But those who had only imagined eating three pieces of cheese kept playing the game more. However, they both said that they still liked cheese, so it wasn't affecting how much they liked cheese.

It was affecting how much they wanted cheese. So the takeaway of all of this is basically we can't-- a few different takeaways. We can, we can like something without strongly wanting it. We can want something that no longer provides much pleasure. W- And thinking about eating, we have to actually think about eating foods to reduce our consumption afterwards, not just like think about the food itself. And it's possible that just like this mental stimulation can have a process that resembles food habituation, so it resembles what we experience when we're eating a lot of the same food. And repetition is critical. It really involves like thinking about it again and again and again. You have to think about eating it, not just seeing it, not just handling it, not just thinking about the food. It's specific to the actual imagined food. And this is not saying that imagining eating causes weight loss, of course. It's hard to know how much this like realistically works in real life, 'cause this was done in a lab. It's not sure how long the effect would persi- persist. We also don't know-- They just, they only looked at cheese and M&M's, so it's hard to know like how many different foods it would work for. And yeah, that, that's basically the, the takeaways. But I was fascinated by this because I don't know, like we-- I think we often think that like if we think about eating food, it'll like make us want it more, make us really hungry. But maybe if you just think about it over and over and over, you'll actually want it less. So Barry, what are your thoughts? That was like a ton, but I'm fascinated by this. What, what are your thoughts?

Barry Conrad
This is such an interesting study and, and also interesting question. Like I, like could this be used to, I guess, manage cravings then? Is that what you're saying? Like does it-- Like it's just so imagining eating something 30 times make you sick of it. I don't know.

Like for me, I guess it would be interesting to put this into practice and give it a go, but usually I-- when I imagine something, I wanna eat it, but imagining it over and over again, maybe it will kind of take the quote-unquote excitement out of it or craving out of it. I've never even thought about or like can your brain partially like pros- process imagined eating like actual eating because you're thinking about it over and over? Do you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. No, it's so-- And I have not-- I thought, I was like, "I should try this experiment myself." I have not Try the experiment. I don't even know, like imagining eating 30 M&M's.

What would I... I guess I would-- I don't eat M&M's, so I wouldn't try it with that. I don't eat cheese.

Barry Conrad
But also, why does like the repeated imagination reduce the cr- craving? Like, I wonder what the-- what's the science behind that? How does that work? Like, how does repeated imagination reduce the wanting, I guess? You know?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I, I think the idea is that it's that habituation. So if, if the brain can actually feel like it went through the whole process over and over and over with eating it, that maybe you, you get the same effects as eating it. So, so some of... That's a great question. So some of the mechanisms might be, number one, simulated sensory exposure. So I think this is what I kind of just said. So repeated imagery may activate enough of the sensory representation of eating to make the stimulus feel less novel and compelling. So basically, you're just kinda used to it, so you lose that like novelty effect.

Reduced reward prediction, so the first imagined unit, you, you might get a lot of anticipatory pleasure, but the more that you do that, that goes down. So then like when you actually eat, which is what happens when you're actually eating, but then if you are to eat right after it, now you've already suppressed that like anticipatory reward. Attentional fatigue, so repeatedly focusing on the same food and action may decrease attention to it, so you lose some of your motivation for it. Memory updating, so the brain may partially encode the imagined repetition as a prior exposure. This is kind of similar to what I said before, alterating- altering the food's novelty or reward value. So yeah, similar to that. So basically, you might trick your brain a little bit into thinking you already were exposed to the food, like actually. Motivational habituation, the food remains pleasant, but the willingness to work for it decreases. And then top-down control without conscious suppression. So this says the exercise is not simply an instruction to resist temptation. It may just literally reduce the temptation, at least temporarily.

Barry Conrad
Like I wonder, like I don't know if it's the same thing, but it definitely made me think of, you know, like as you know, like when you're acting and you're going through a real emotion or you're thinking about something, your body doesn't know the difference. I wonder if there's a correlation between the two, like when you're, you're processing it in your brain so many times that you're experiencing it. Does that sound crazy to say?

I wonder if there's any sort of connection.

Melanie Avalon
Well, I mean, it's kinda what it's saying is like that with the memory encoding, like your brain kind of categorizes it as having had already happened. It's kinda similar to like what you're saying with acting, where like you're experiencing whatever acting or character you're playing as like a real thing. And so like the brain is doing that too. Like it kinda feels like this is like actually happening and can't really like tell, tell the difference.

Barry Conrad
It's, it's a very interesting study. Like very... And I wonder if this was something that was presented to the general public, if this is something that people would try and implement and see how that would work in terms of, you know, managing food control, behavioral, behavior around food.

You know what I mean? Like I wonder.

Melanie Avalon
I know. I'm trying to think. Well, so the researchers in the study, they thought it might be helpful for unhealthy food cravings, drug cravings, cigarette cravings, and also fears and phobic responses. So basically, it, it doesn't necessarily even have to be food.

Like there's this idea that mentally rehearsing things can make a behavior either more likely or improve performance or reduce what you do after. Like the brain is very powerful by mentally imagining things. It's kind of like that guy-- I should know who it is. There was some guy who like was in jail for a long time, and he... Was he like a golfer or a chess player? He like mentally rehearsed either golf or chess, maybe two people did this, just like mentally rehearsed it constantly in jail, and like when he got out, he was like amazing at it, just from like mentally rehearsing.

Barry Conrad
I think as well it even speaks to the whole concept of, you know, visualization and, and picturing success or picturing yourself achieving a goal or whatnot, you know? The brain's powerful, you know, the mind.

Melanie Avalon
It's, it's incredible. Let's see.

So the original story I found it, although caveat, it's saying that the details are poorly documented and it's difficult to independently verify, but apparently it was a guy named Major James Nesmith. He was a US serviceman and a recreational golfer, and he spent about seven years as a POW in North Vietnam. And to cope with his isolation, he supposedly spent hours mentally playing golf, imagining the course, choosing the clubs, feeling the grip, visualizing each swing, watching the ball fly, walking through the entire 18-hole round. And then after returning home, he reportedly played golf again, and he shot around 74, despite previously averaging in the 90s. So, you know, just by like going through it in his mind so much, he got-- he became a better golf player and just from his mind.

Barry Conrad
That's pretty amazing, and I think it's, it's impo-- Well, it definitely like makes you think that this, this really could work. I mean, I wonder how many people are gonna say, "Yeah, let me try this to control my, my cravings." But, but it's still interesting. It's still super interesting.

Melanie Avalon
I'm trying to think how I would... But I, I guess I would just, I don't know. I guess I would just imagine eating like a steak 30 times and then see if I eat as much steak.

Barry Conrad
I probably still would.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.

Barry Conrad
There's certain things that you just would, you wouldn't, for me anyway, I don't know you can say the same, that I would not lose the craving for: steak, oysters.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, oysters. Oh my goodness. Oh, you were gonna... You were supposed to tell me something about oysters.

Barry Conrad
Jogged my memory. So when, went upstate recently, one of my friends, her name is Alex, she was sitting there and we ordered some oysters, and she's like, "Oh, I can't have that." I said, "Why not?" "I just... The texture-" To taste. I'm like, and just like, ah, is-

Melanie Avalon
Did she say it was fishy?

Barry Conrad
She didn't. She's like, "Is this a-- okay, it makes me think, and I'm not sexist at all, is this a girl thing?"

Melanie Avalon
No.

Barry Conrad
'Cause no guys that I know, hand on heart, don't like oysters.

Melanie Avalon
We're gonna poll this in the Facebook group. That's my post for tonight that I'm gonna p- post.

Barry Conrad
It could be like a female girl thing. I'm just saying. Do you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I don't think it is, but I think it's just a universal.

Barry Conrad
And she also said, "I really wanna like it. I just don't.

Like, I just look at it and taste it, and I just can't, but I know that I should." I'm like, "Sounds familiar to me." You know, I've got a friend, her name is Melanie Avalon. She says the same thing .

Melanie Avalon
I had a conversation recently with a man, and he didn't like oysters. I don't remember who it was, but I remember that we had a conversation.

Barry Conrad
I'm gonna have a call with-- no, it's not worth mentioning on this, but I'm having a call with someone that we both know on Friday. I don't know him yet, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna meet him and maybe that'll come up in conversation, see if he likes them.

Melanie Avalon
That actually might've been who it was. Maybe.

Barry Conrad
Oh, maybe I shouldn't have the call then.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Barry Conrad
That's a great study, by the way. It's so interesting and speaks to the power of the human brain and what we're capable of.

Melanie Avalon
I know. I'm glad you appreciated it. Shall we jump into some listener questions?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
All right. So to start things off, we have a question from Julie, and the subject is bile reflux and fasting. And Julie says, "Hey. First, I want to let you know that I've been listening to you since you first started and have really appreciated you guys from the get-go. I've been doing keto prior to IF, and then you came along and I started the IF lifestyle, so I've been IF-ing since the start of your podcast however long ago that was. This is going to be more of a suggestion than a question, but I would still love your feedback. I had been fasting about a year and a half successfully when I started to get a burning sensation in my tummy that then turned into esophageal spasms. They progressed to feeling like a heart attack, constant tummy burning, a burp sensation that would not pass, and a lump in my throat. It got worse at nighttime. I tried moving my window around and alternate day fasting, but nothing seemed to help and it kept getting worse. I went and had a scope done and found out I have what is called bile reflux, where my gallbladder, which I still have, is malfunctioning and releasing way too much bile, which is very alkaline, into my tummy, causing gastritis. I had to stop fasting because I realized the fasting was making me worse because my tummy was intolerant to being empty.

Remember, I'm a longtime IF-er and I'm used to an empty tummy. I'd been doing somewhere between twenty-four and sixteen/eight. There was no way that any apple cider vinegar, digestive enzymes, or HCL was going to work because my tummy was so sore from the bile and anything acid made it worse. I since joined a bile reflux group on Facebook and see that there are so many people that have this, and I wonder how many more people have it that don't even know they have it. I think we finally found the one time where fasting is not good for a person. I'm a huge advocate for fasting, so please don't get me wrong. I think it's a miracle for those who can do it and was so sad to have to come to terms with this. I wanted to share this with you for those who may ask why they have worse pain in their tummy when they fast. I have searched on this topic and have come up dry with only suggestions that made me worse. My only luck was the Facebook group for holistic healing of bile reflux and another one for bile reflux. I thought this info would be helpful to you and wanted to share with you since you have shared so much goodness with me, and not as any kind of discouragement, but as a tool to help you guys answer some tummy-related questions. I truly love you and am so grateful for all the work you do, both to put out this very informative podcast. I can't even fast and I still listen because I get so much out of it for my clients. I'm a health coach for emotional eaters and have a YouTube channel where I also put out free content so I can totally relate to the work involved. Sincerely, Julie."

Barry Conrad
Wow, Julie. Like, what a thought-out suggestion and message that you sent us.

Like, really appreciate you sending this, truly, and because I think, I reckon it's incredibly important example of something, you know, that we, we might not talk a lot about in the fasting world, and it's great that, you know, we're sharing this on our podcast, which is all about fasting, and that is sometimes the right answer is not just to push through. You know? I actually love so much that you frame this as info rather than an attack on fasting. Like, you're clearly a massive advocate for intermittent fasting. You've been doing it successfully, successfully for a long time. You're still listening to the podcast and, you know, I love that you're putting out your free content as well for your, and for your clients as well. It's exactly the kind of nuance I think is useful for our listeners here as well. What really caught my attention about this note was that you'd been fasting successfully for about a year and a half doing, you know, your sixteen/eight to twenty-four and then started, you know, developing that burning sensation, the esophageal spasms, that feeling of like, like a, like a l- lump in your throat, the constant, like the burping sensation, the symptoms that were becoming worse, you know? And eventually you found out about the bile reflux with gastritis. I think it's-- this is where we need to be really careful about saying, quote-unquote, "fasting caused your bile reflux," you know, because it's not something we can establish from your experience alone. You know, bile reflux does happen when bile moves backwards from the small intestine into the stomach and sometimes it, into the esophagus, and it can irritate the stomach lining and cause inflammation. With that being said, it's very clear from the story that fasting was, was making your symptoms worse and you did the experiment, you changed your fasting window, you tried your ADF, you tried different approaches. And instead of getting better, the symptoms seemed to worsen, and you d- you found that, like, having an empty stomach seemed to aggravate things too, and, and you ultimately stopped your fasting. And, and listen, this is-- that's not a failure to me. Actually, that, that's actually you're listening. It's an important reminder that, you know, just because something is beneficial for one person doesn't mean we should force it on everybody or alienate everyone or, or preach to everybody. We talk a lot about fasting being a stressor for our bodies, and it's also a stressor that the body can adapt to. But I do think that there are circumstances like where adding that stress isn't appropriate. So if someone already has, for example, you, you've got an irritated or damaged GI tract, the priority has to be treating that, the underlying problem, rather than trying to squeeze in a fasting window or just because the internet says so or just because we say so. It's not about trying just to do that if that, that's what you're experiencing. And your point about all the online advice, Julie, is interesting as well.

Barry Conrad
You mentioned things like your apple cider vinegar, your digestive enzymes and HCl, y- and in your situation, those things made it worse. So it makes sense when you zoom out and look at what's really happening here. So your bile reflux, it's not, it's not just a problem of not having enough stomach acid. You're dealing with bile irritating the stomach and potention- potentially causing, like, potentially harming the, um, es- esophagus. So I mean, we know that, like, clinical resources emphasize that bile reflux can-- it can be difficult to distinguish from acid reflux as well, and that treatments targeted specifically at bile reflux can be different.

So I don't want someone listening to this who has, like, a ongoing or persistent burning or reflux to say or to hear rather, "Oh, fasting makes my stomach hurt. I'll just take apple cider vinegar." I don't want that. Like, if something is really causing you pain, investigate it. Go see your doctor. It's one of the biggest things I want people to get from Julie's story. Like, if, if there's also another great thing, it's, it's that research on bile reflux shows that, like, a degree of duodenogastric reflux can actually occur, like, normally. So that's including during fasting. So just detecting bile doesn't necessarily mean someone has pathological bile reflux. Diagnosis is more complicated than that, so that's why you're having an endoscopy and, and, and getting that diagnosis, and that's why it's so important. It's, it's, it's not just, "I feel weird when I'm fasting, therefore fasting must be bad." Like, you're taking the steps, and it's significant symptoms. You investigated them. You found out that it's actual gastrointestinal condition. That's completely different. And I think we should also be honest about what we, we don't know. There isn't, like, strong or overwhelming evidence at all saying that fasting is universally causing bile reflux or that everyone with bile reflux must avoid fasting forever.

Our, our current medical guidance, as far as I know, like, it actually notes that bile reflux is still an area where there's limited evidence around, like, the best treatment approach and, and management and, and whatnot. And that needs to be-- it's individual. It's indi-- it has to be individually managed as well. So Julie, like your experience, you know, it's not a blanket rule. It is individual, and it, and it, and it's a piece of information. If you have no GI symptoms and fasting feels amazing, that's one situation. If you develop lots of burning reflux, abdominal pain, nausea, trouble swallowing, whatnot, that's a whole different thing. And especially if you are having symptoms that feel like a chest pain or heart attack, that is not something to, to ever, ever experiment with at home, ever.

Please go see your doctor. And the other thing I love about your story, Julie, is that you didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater and just, like, abandon your entire health d- journey just because fasting's not working right now. You're still learning, listening, helping other people, admittedly, still getting value from our pod- podcast, which we so appreciate.

Barry Conrad
And I think that's such a healthy, well-rounded way of looking at this, that it's a tool and not, like, a religion. And Mel and I are all about that. We don't have to defend it at all costs.

And Julie, I think, you know, you've really shown that being a huge believer in IF doesn't mean pretending it's appropriate in every single circumstance health-wise. Sometimes the healthy decision is knowing when to just pay attention, to stop, to pause, to see your doctor, get the help that you need and, and adapt, pivot. And yeah. Mel, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I, I agree and, and what I like-- 'cause it, it sounds like I don't think she thinks fasting was, like, causing this. It sounds like she's aware that she has what's like you were emphasizing, like, you know, fasting is not a cause of this, but if you have this issue, then fasting can make it worse.

And what, what's basically happening probably mechanistically is we have something called the migrating motor complex. So it's, it's like a-- it's like waves of movement that happen periodically throughout the day. It's cyclical. It's a motility pattern in the stomach. And when it happens, bile can actually be emptied into the, the stomach. When you h- when you have the issue that, that she has where the bile is not basically being properly, like, held back, basically with fasting, she's getting more of these cycles, and so it's just dumping more and more bile into her stomach. And then, you know, she's getting the gastritis and the irritation, and it makes sense that those things-- 'cause the, the things that she tried are things to address low acid, not High alkaline. So, like with the HCL, the apple cider vinegar. So basically with that is she was doing things that weren't, weren't addressing the alkaline, and then on top of that, like she said, we're adding acid to a severely inflamed gut, so that probably, you know, just made it way worse. So I love ... And, like, I don't have an answer. Like, I want there to be an answer to be like, you know, oh yeah, this is the solution. This is how you can fast and do this. And, you know, I, I, I don't know. I applaud her for trying different things, and I also, like you were saying, Barry, like really applaud her for realizing, like, maybe because of this, you know, condition that she has, at least for right now, she's not able to fast. I, I would be really curious in that group, like, if people have this forever, like is it something that can go away? Or, you know, could it have another root cause that could be addressed? 'Cause maybe, maybe it has another root cause and you can address that, and then you can get back to fasting. But either way, I just really, Julia, I really s- I applaud you for the perspective that you have, like like realizing what's happening in your body, trying things to fix it, and also being okay with, like, okay, maybe fasting is not for me. Um, it's funny, she said something about, like, is this the one thing that, you know, you just aren't made for fasting. There, there are, you know ... Well, some people, for some people, they just do better eating throughout the day, like for whatever reason. And then there are ... We've had a, throughout the years, we've had a few other, like, I don't want to say random, but a few other conditions that came up where it did, it did create actual problems for fasting. So we de- we definitely are not advocating, like fasting is, like perfect for absolutely everybody, 'cause there are always exceptions, and clearly this is a, a big group of people.

Melanie Avalon
And it's interesting, 'cause apparently people more often struggle with bile reflux when they no longer have a, a gallbladder, but you still have your gallbladder, so this is like a, a different form of it. So one thing that you could look into is called, I can't really say it, U- urso- and this is not, like medical advice, um , but you could look into ursodeoxycholic acid, so UDCA. So it has shown some benefit in placebo-controlled trials to change the bile acid composition reflux in the stomach, so that might be something to look into. They're, they're still doing, doing trials on it.

Let's see. There is some research on prokinetic agents, but it's pretty, pretty thin when it comes to this specifically. I would definitely, yeah, I would definitely see a GI doctor for this and, and, you know, hopefully you can find something that will help, and maybe someday you can get back to fasting. And, and thank you, yeah, thank you so much for, you know, being here with the show, and the support, and all that you do with like the, the education piece, and, you know, you're a content creator helping people with emotional eating and all the things.

So we definitely, definitely appreciate you for that. So thank you for the question. I'm sending, sending good vibes to all the people who experience this. That's rough. That would make me so sad.

Barry Conrad
Same. All the good vibes.

Melanie Avalon
Okey-dokey. Shall we have our proverbial breaking of the fast moment?

Barry Conrad
I thought you'd never ask.

Melanie Avalon
All right, friends. So this portion of the show is one of my favorites, and this is where we emphasize the importance of the feasting and not just the fasting, because the benefits of fasting are not just from the fast, it's also from eating.

So we like to pick restaurants and profile them, and, oh, and visualize, Barry. I actually was thinking about this, 'cause we visualize what we would eat, but, but we only vi- well, okay, when, when, when you're going through this, when we, when we go through this, do you, do you actually visualize eating the food or do you just, like, pick for the food?

Barry Conrad
I actually do.

Melanie Avalon
I don't think I visualize eating it. I visualize it on the plate.

Barry Conrad
I started just visualizing on the plate, but then I just started going, "Let me, like, picture myself actually eating this." It's actually so satisfying.

Melanie Avalon
Like you have been doing that?

Barry Conrad
Yeah. Like as of late.

Melanie Avalon
Huh. I don't ... I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to see if I do when we do it now.

Barry Conrad
It changes the way you choose what you choose too.

Melanie Avalon
But the thing i- so here's the thing. So based on what we learned in our, the study earlier, because we're just presumably visualizing eating it, like, once or twice and not 30 times, um , it's probably not gonna make us eat less.

We would, we would have to visualize it 30 times. Okay. So what restaurant do you have for us today?

Barry Conrad
So Melanie, I have a restaurant today called RPM Seafood, and it's in Chicago. I'm gonna send you a ... In Chinatown. I'm sending you the link right now. There we go. Check that baby out there.

And the reason why I chose it, it's got crazy awesome riverside r- restaurant with floor-to-ceiling windows overlooking the Chicago River. So the setting is just part of the experience. Fully à la carte with crudo, tartare, seafood towers, whole fish, seafood steaks, and amazingly presented pastas. The wine list, Melanie, you'd love. It's massive. And there's also multiple terraces, expansive riverside patio, and the vibe is meant to be big, like glamorous Chicago energy, but also sophisticated enough for the serious dine, like diners out there as well. So yeah, and the menu's great.

Melanie Avalon
When I hear the word terrace, I'm like, "Uh, is that outside?"

Barry Conrad
You don't like outside eating? I've never asked you that before.

Melanie Avalon
Barry, I don't like outside.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. Why did I even ask that question?

Melanie Avalon
So eating outside is, like, worse. That, that's, that's why I told you, you know, we went through, like, the top four first dates, and number four is a picnic.

Like, literally, that's like the last thing I would do on a first date. But this looks great, terraces aside.

Barry Conrad
Okay. Does anything catch your eye there?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, they're also in Washington, DC, and Vegas.

Barry Conrad
Which is great. But Chicago, I actually haven't been to Chicago in a while. Have you, do you go to Chicago often?

Melanie Avalon
I have only been once. Have we talked about this? Seventh grade. Seventh grade field trip, because it totally makes sense. This is what makes sense, to have a field trip with s- seventh graders.

Seventh grade is the most, like, like emotionally, socially charged time of your life. Take all of them, bundle them up, take them to Chicago in January when it's freezing. Sounds like a great idea. That's what my high sch- my middle school growing up did as like the tradition. Many, many friendships have been broken on that trip. Like ... So yeah, but I would love it. I, I was talking with somebody the other day about it. I was like, I feel like Chicago ... I feel like I would love Chicago because their theater scene is like on point. You know, they have so much theater. I feel like they're probably the second the- I, I, I mean, would, would you say ... I would say New York and then Chicago is like the top theater cities. You know, more so than LA even.

Barry Conrad
I was gonna throw a thing in there saying, you know, "Mel, you gotta come on over to New York. Come and visit me."

Melanie Avalon
I know. You've gotta come to Atlanta.

Barry Conrad
Let's go back to... Okay, so looking at the... It starts with from our cold bar.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so from our cold bar. Oh, look at the oysters. Oh, Barry, do you have a preference between East and West Coast oysters, which they offer?

Barry Conrad
Because I don't, I'm not versed in both kinds, I will get both for sure to see if there's any difference in the taste.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I think it comes with it either way. Maybe, maybe not.

Barry Conrad
Also, Mel, quick question. Is, have you ever heard of people cheers-ing oysters?

Melanie Avalon
No.

Barry Conrad
I had a guest on my podcast, Fancy a DC. She's an actress called Natalie Lanez, and she, when I had-

Melanie Avalon
Oh, wait. It's, I watched that clip, right? You sent it to me, right? And I saw you guys cheers.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. She cheers his oysters. I'm like, I've never experienced that before.

Melanie Avalon
Because I thought she was making a joke about certain things, and I didn't have the context. I think if you saw it in an isolated clip, it looked like she was joking about certain things, but I understand she wasn't.

No, I don't know about that. That's interesting. Like, sounds horrible. You know what sounds horrible is like cheers-ing champagne and then cheers-ing oysters. Two things I dislike severely.

Barry Conrad
You don't like cheers-ing sh- whoa, whoa, did not know this. You don't like cheers-ing champagne? Why not?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I don't like champagne. Mm-mm.

Barry Conrad
I know you don't... Well, is there any kind of champagne that you can tolerate?

Melanie Avalon
Yes. The majority of champagne I try is very sweet, but if it's like a very, very dry champagne, I know I'm not using the right terminology, brut, extra brut, whatever, then yes, and it's gotta be like European and like top, top of the line. I, but I also don't like bubbles. I don't like carbonation. So it's two things I don't like.

I get headaches from champagne, and n- wine does not give me headaches, especially with my... Everybody go to purevine.app, especially with my organic wines. But, um, champagne, yeah. And by champagne, I'm using the wrong terminology again, I mean like any sparkling wine situation, but including champagne, from champagne. You like champagne?

Barry Conrad
You know what? It has to be good champagne, not like cheap champagne or like bad because otherwise that's not gonna be great, but I do like a good champagne and... But not like... It's not something I have even remotely regularly, but if it's like at an event or an occasion, sure, I'll have a glass.

Fine.

Melanie Avalon
It's funny 'cause like it's always... So I do have it, and it's always like, it's either for like birthday, New Year's Eve, Christmas, like it's like a moment, and then it's like, okay, I'll cheers and I'll drink the champagne. But mm.

Okay. So from our cold bar, uh, um... So I mean, if you get like a tower situation, I will from that have the shrimp, the crab. So the Maine lobster, yes. The Alaskan king crab, yes. The colossal shrimp, yes. The East and West Coast oysters, no.

Barry Conrad
Yes. If you go, if you scroll down, Mel, you can see a picture of the grand seafood tower. Do you see it?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, that looks nice. Yeah. Look at the... L- look at that. I like everything that's coming out at the top, not below.

Barry Conrad
I actually like that there's pictures. Actually, we can... It's the s- exact same menu, but if you look on this down here, you can see photos of everything. So maybe that'll affect your choices.

Melanie Avalon
I'm gonna look at the private label oysters, the pearl private label. Oh, it's like, it's like Pirates of the Caribbean.

Barry Conrad
Don't they look so good?

Melanie Avalon
No.

Barry Conrad
I had like a dozen oysters today.

Melanie Avalon
I want to like them, by the way. And I will say, actually, I, I disagree a little bit. You were talking earlier about the, the women not liking it because, like, the texture and everything. The texture actually doesn't really bother me.

I, I... It could taste amazing. I... It just tastes horrible. Tastes like the ocean, so. Are you gonna have some bread service?

Barry Conrad
I like to have like a little bit of bread on the table. And I'm... Maybe a Everything Parker House, whatever that is.

Oh, hold on. Maybe not that one. Hold on. Cheese baked focaccia looks pretty yum. Just to have it there. I can always just pick at it if I want.

Melanie Avalon
That looks really good. I... This is like addicting, like pressing the, the pictures.

Oh, I definitely want... Okay, I want the yuzu cur- cured salmon, but please have the crème fraîche on the side and the Japanese chili on the side, but the salmon, yes.

Barry Conrad
I will do the yellowfin tuna crispy rice.

Melanie Avalon
Bring on the mercury. I'm so passive-aggressive.

Barry Conrad
Anything from the warm bites?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, so on this menu they have both prawns and shrimp. That says to me that they must be maybe like... Those look like shrimp though. Hmm. Oh, they have octopus.

Barry Conrad
Uh-huh. Grilled Spanish octopus. I'm gonna... I'm getting that. That looks so yum. It's actually so delicious, Mel. It's really good octopus.

Melanie Avalon
I will, I'll taste like the... If you can like carve out, 'cause it's like covered in a sauce, if you could just like carve out some of the meat on the inside, I'll try it.

Barry Conrad
Sure.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, cool. So now the sushi rolls

Barry Conrad
You don't like sushi, though, like with the rice and stuff, so I'm guessing you're not gonna have that.

Melanie Avalon
Are you gonna have some?

Barry Conrad
I'm definitely gonna have a, mm, maybe the bluefin tuna and avocado. That looks... I love avocado and tuna, so that looks good. I'll do that.

Melanie Avalon
Are you gonna have a salad?

Barry Conrad
A salad. I'll just get this... Oh, actually, heirloom t- heirloom tomato salad. I love tomatoes. I'll do that.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, you like those?

Barry Conrad
I do like tomatoes. I could eat cherry tomatoes like chips, like a little snack. I love cherry tomatoes so much.

Melanie Avalon
I've told my... I thi- I'm pretty sure I've told my tomato salad story before, right? From Paris.

Barry Conrad
No.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. I haven't? So one of, like, a memory that my family tells all the time... I thought I told this before. We... Was it in Paris? I think it was, I think it was in Paris. We went to this restaurant, and one of the things on the list, and I ordered it, was, like, tomato salad, and it came out, and it was, it was, like, a tomato. That's, like, what it was. Like, I was so confused. I remember being like... It was, like, a slice of tomato with... I mean, maybe there was, like, a garnish on it, but I was like, "Um." Which is ironic. Ironically enough, that's the type of thing I would live for today.

Like, just, you know, fresh, nothing added. But I just remember like, "What did I order?" Okay. Fish and seafood. So, freaking love fish.

Barry Conrad
I'm loving these photos, by the way.

Melanie Avalon
I know. I know. I do love... They have Ora King salmon with fire-kissed tomatoes. Um, let me see. Oh, they have branzino. Yes. Okay. I want the... Yes, please. I would like the charcoal-grilled branzino with Moroccan spices and salsa verde. Can you please just, like, put everything on the side? Love branzino. That's what I want for sure.

Do you want anything fishy?

Barry Conrad
Roasted Maine lobster. Sign me up. Spicy miso glaze. That's all me. The full n- the full portion.

Melanie Avalon
They also have... Oh, it's fried. They have... Okay. Um, hmm. Okay.

And then do you want... Oh, flamed tableside? Mixed seafood grill with king crab, Spanish octopus, and blue prawn. Oh, I want that. Oh, okay. Listeners, friends, let me describe. It's, like, a skewer on a very, like, artsy skewer that looks like it came from Atlantis. And it's shrimp, octopus, and prawn over rocks on a dish. It looks beautiful. I want that.

Barry Conrad
I think, you know what? We could, we could have our ind- if you want, have our individual choices from before and have the flame side as a little side.

Melanie Avalon
Like, that's our side dish?

Barry Conrad
Yeah. 'Cause it's like you can't really... It's, it's good, and it's not that massive.

Melanie Avalon
I'm down. And this is, like, this is the perfect way for me to try octopus. I think this is where I need to try octopus. We gotta go to Chicago. That's the takeaway.

Barry Conrad
Okay, scrolling on down to the prime steaks and wagyu.

Melanie Avalon
Prime steaks and wagyu, which, by the way, I have to tell you about the steak thing I've been doing recently. Okay, so-

Barry Conrad
I know what I'm getting.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Well, I know what I'm getting too.

Barry Conrad
What are you getting?

Melanie Avalon
You can probably guess.

Barry Conrad
You're gonna get the creek stone filet?

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. The hand-cut creek stone filet from Arkansas City. I feel bad because, like, normally what I would like to do ideally, like I do with wine, is revert to the most important thing being, like, with the f- where it came from and is it grass-fed. However, for me with steak, I just, I like leaner, so that, that's typically what I... That's, like, what I look for more than where it comes from.

What are you gonna get? You know what? You, you said that so confidently.

Barry Conrad
I'm getting the Margaret River wagyu NY strip. It just looks amazing. I'm getting that.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, it's from Australia. Is that why?

Barry Conrad
Uh-huh. And also, it just looks incredible, so I'm getting that.

And then as a specialty down at the bottom, I'm gonna definitely have to get the king crab mac and cheese on the side because it actually looks, like, decadent and amazing, not just, like, store-bought, whack, you know, crazy. It looks, like, amazing. Look at, look at that photo. That looks, like, thought out.

Melanie Avalon
I'm getting hit with so many memories right now, like a very specific memory. Would you like to know what it is?

Barry Conrad
What?

Melanie Avalon
So one of the easiest upsells when I was working in fine dining steakhouses, and I would always feel bad about it because it was so expensive and people didn't realize. But people would order the mac and cheese, and I'd be like, "Would you like lobster mac and cheese?" And then people would be like, "Yeah." And, like, it was so easy. They would just be like, "Yes," and they wouldn't look at the price. And so it was, like, the easiest way to, like, quickly upsell something with, like, no pushback. And I was always like, "Do I need to, like, point out the price before they do that?" But I don't know. No- nobody ever, like, complained, so, but yeah, I, I feel guilty about that to this day.

Barry Conrad
Don't feel guilty. The people can look up the prices or ask about it.

Melanie Avalon
I used to feel so guilty when people would order, like, the seafood tower. Like, so guilty because it says market price, and it doesn't say the price on the menu, and people, people wouldn't ask, and it was so expensive.

But I guess, like, I guess they should know that. I guess they can ask, right? They can ask the price before they buy it.

Barry Conrad
They can ask. Of course they can ask.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Like, literally this is, like, the life of Melanie as a server. I'm just feeling guilty about, like, literally everything I do.

So. Okay, are you going to get vegetables and sides? Well, I want more of that, like, charcoaled-grilled Atlantis trident skewer from above for, for my side.

Barry Conrad
We can get, like, a second one of those.

Melanie Avalon
Are you gonna get anything?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, charcoal roasted aspara- I love asparagus, so that's pretty good and easy to eat. And then let's migrate to the desserts.

Melanie Avalon
Asparagus is a fascinating vegetable for two reasons. Do you know what they are?

Barry Conrad
Why?

Melanie Avalon
It very, very epically does two things. And, like, I don't know that there's any other vegetable that So intensely like does something to you. And asparagus does two things to you. Like if you eat asparagus, you will know, and there are two things it does. You know-- I'm sure you know one of them

Barry Conrad
I just, I just enjoy it. I don't feel like it-

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So number one, they, they make your urine smell like something like really intense. Like there's a compound in it that gets excreted through your kidneys

Barry Conrad
I've heard this

Melanie Avalon
... and but like so clearly it's like, wow. And then number two, they're, they're massively a diuretic. I think it's the same compound. I could be wrong. I think the same compound that you smell is like the diuretic compound. Again, I could be wrong, but either way.

So love it for the diuretic potential 'cause they're great for debloating, but not for the smell. Um, okay, and then now what? The desserts?

Barry Conrad
I know exactly what I'm getting, and there's two choices.

Melanie Avalon
Do you want the peanut butter pie?

Barry Conrad
Yes.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. One down. Guys, I get so stressed at this point. Okay, and then number two. Okay. Well, you... Hmm. Oh, the-- Oh, sorry, I didn't see the last one. You want the triple chocolate cake?

Barry Conrad
Bingo.

Melanie Avalon
Guys, I was caught up 'cause I just saw like dark chocolate gelato, and I was like, "That's chocolate," but like he's not a big like gelato ice cream person. I mean, he is, but not just like the thing to pick, so.

But then triple chocolate cake. Yes, that looks good. Black sesame and fior di latte gelato. That's a question for you. It sounds like it has something coffee-ish in it. Do you like coffee in like infused?

Barry Conrad
I do. I do. Anything coffee is great. Yeah, like I like espresso martinis. I like coffee, anything coffee.

Melanie Avalon
Ironic 'cause I have a coffee line, but I, I, I'm not about it. Like when it's like in a dessert, no. Mm-mm, no.

Barry Conrad
Interesting.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I don't like coffee infused desserts.

Barry Conrad
Anything from the wine list that you like? There's quite a bit there.

Melanie Avalon
Well, by the way, for my dessert I'm probably-- I will get more of, more of whatever I most liked from above 'cause there were a lot of things. Yeah, maybe more skewers.

Okay. The wine list. Oh, Loire white. Do they have Loire red? That's... Oh, Loire red. Okay. They organize by value. Okay. I probably... Oh, those are expensive. Whoa. Those are very expensive. Um, they have a very excellent wine list. I am certain of this. I'm just gonna look at by the glass.

Barry Conrad
It's one of the reasons why I picked this.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you. Let me look at by the glass. Which by the way, Barry, think about this. I, I really think Pure Vine-- I haven't, I haven't launched it yet, by the way.

Like as of right now when people listen, it will, it'll, it'll, it'll be launched. But if I can like grow it into the next Vivino, then we're gonna have all the hookups with like all the wine people. Okay, let's see. Wine by the glass. I don't know what I'm ordering, but I feel very confident that I can find something. I would order some sort of European red, probably preferably from like France or Italy. I would use my purevine.app to figure out which one to order and I'll be off to the races, so.

Barry Conrad
There's like $9,000 bottles here. There's like-- I'm sure there's lots of-

Melanie Avalon
What would you... Oh my gosh. Six, 8,000. Oh my goodness. 9,000.

Barry Conrad
You'd wanna just savor every sip.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. And do you see a cocktail that you would like?

Barry Conrad
I don't, but I feel like I would actually for this restaurant maybe get a really, really nice bottle of white wine for me personally.

Melanie Avalon
A Pinot Grigio?

Barry Conrad
Maybe a Pinot Grigio or just something that they would recommend to go with all the seafood, 'cause I feel like I'll be seafood heavy with this one.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that's true. White does pair well with seafood.

Barry Conrad
Like a Albariño-esque or a Pinot Grigio-esque or something like that.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, they have South African white wines. Which by the way, really last quick story, I promise. But, um so you know, I've told you I don't like Sauvignon Blanc because it tastes like grass, like completely. So my mother was being so kind and she was like testing out my Pure Vine app, and she was like, "It's really great, but I think it's like the catalog's not correct because I looked up Sauvignon Blanc and there were no-- There was nothing." And I was like, "Yep, that's because five years of tasting notes and I have not done one single Sauvignon Blanc." So friends, get it now and add some Sauvignon Blancs to the catalog because it needs them.

'Cause that's one of the most popular white wines, unfortunately. Okay. Awesome find.

Barry Conrad
Thanks.

Melanie Avalon
Were you envisioning eating it?

Barry Conrad
I, I really was. And it's-- And I-- You know what? And these photos surprised me 'cause I didn't know they were here, and it definitely helped me visualize eating it-

Melanie Avalon
I didn't

Barry Conrad
... so much more.

Melanie Avalon
I just envisioned the food. I didn't actually envision eating it, so.

Okay. Well, friends, listeners, we hope you enjoyed your time with us. So a few things before we go. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode496. They will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out. And then you can get all of the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. If you would like to get my new wine app to find low alcohol organic wines, go to purevine.app. That's P-U-R-V-I-N-E dot A-P-P. And use the coupon code IFPODCAST to get 10 welcome bonus points for the rewards program. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are IFPodcast. I am MelanieAvon. Barry is Barry_Conrad. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad
That's it. Thank you so much for tuning in, everyone. We can't wait to talk to you next week. And yeah, catch you later.

Melanie Avalon
Talk to you next week.

Barry Conrad
Bye.

Melanie Avalon
Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes.

We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joiner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.