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Welcome to Special Guest Episode 442 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

Dr. Nayan Patel is a sought after pharmacist, wellness expert, and thought leader in his industry. He has been working with physicians since 1999 to custom develop medication for their clients and design a patient specific drug and nutrition regimen. He has been the pharmacist of choice to celebrities, CEO’s and physicians themselves.

He recently published his first comprehensive book, “The Glutathione Revolution: Fight Disease, Slow Aging & Increase Energy.” After more than a decade of clinical research on the master antioxidant, glutathione, Dr. Patel finally shares how powerful and essential glutathione is to the body’s detox system. He speaks about the various benefits it has with slowing the aging process down, and explains how you can increase your levels naturally. Dr. Patel is a firm believer in providing the body with tools it needs to defend itself and promote a healthy lifestyle that fits the pace of the modern world.

Nayan Patel, Pharm.D is globally regarded as the foremost go-to expert on absorbable forms of glutathione, and holds the only patent on transdermal glutathione. In addition to many other topics such as cellular function and hormone replacement, Patel is a highly sought after global authority on the critical role in that glutathione, and all other antioxidants and endogenous molecules play in the body. Along with traveling the world educating practitioners on advanced biochemistry and anti-aging science, Dr. Patel also serves as adjunct faculty at the University Of Southern California School Of Pharmacy where he is also an alumnus.

He is currently a licensed compounding pharmacist that is still involved in designing and compounding drugs and nutrition therapies for his patients that includes athletes, CEO’s, highly stressed actors, physicians themselves and the community where he has practiced for 27 years. Besides being a pharmacist, CEO, and leader, he is a father to his three kids, husband to his supportive wife and a son to his dad who is the inspiration to help heal the world.

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TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 442 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 442 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here today with such a special guest. Friends, I am so excited about this conversation. So this fabulous guest I have actually had on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast twice now, and I have met him and hung out with him multiple times at multiple conferences. He just happens to be one of my favorite humans in, I mean, this whole sphere. And that is Dr. Nayan Patel. I first met him when I read his book, and it is called The Glutathione Revolution, Fight Disease, Slow Aging, and Increase Energy. And friends, when it comes to our health and wellness, we talk a lot about antioxidants. And you might have heard, I mean, I feel like most people have heard of glutathione, you know, and you might be doing things like getting IVs even, or taking, you know, supplement forms, or, you know, trying to boost your glutathione levels. And there is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to what is the best way to actually support and boost glutathione in your body because it is our master antioxidant. And especially friends, when it comes to things like fasting and diet and fitness, antioxidants are so key to feeling well during everything and not only feeling well, but really optimizing your life. And I now honestly, so I read the book, I learned all about what glutathione actually is, how it functions in the body, how you actually can increase it. And I started using Dr. Patel's transdermal form of glutathione. I use it every single night of my life. And I have now for years, that is a true statement. And on top of that, I also use some of his skincare products, which are incredible for your skin. Prepare to have your mind blown because this is going to be just an epic conversation. So Dr. Patel, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Well, thank you very much for having me here today. I appreciate the introduction.

And I'm glad that your audience is savvy and they're looking to improve their health. And I appreciate this. I can't believe this is a 4 and 20 second episode and your audience is still here. So that means you have some great information. And I'm glad to be here as a messenger for the Health and Wellness Journey.

Melanie Avalon
I think now we've seen each other maybe at maybe three conferences and it's always like super hectic and I feel like we always like squeeze it in like one of us is leaving but it happens every time I do see you and also fight on because you I forget you you taught at USC or went to USC.

Dr. Nayan Patel
So I didn't do my graduate school at USC and I'm still have edging faculty over there as well.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, awesome, awesome, awesome. Okay, so I have so many questions for you. It's exciting because I pulled out all my old notes from when you've come on before and I have so many notes here.

So glutathione, a little bit about your personal story. When did you realize that you were going to become the glutathione guy and how do you feel about that?

Dr. Nayan Patel
Boy, you know when you grow up as a kid, no one wants to be a glue with iron guy They want they would be an astronaut. They want to be they want to conquer the world They want to be a doctor They would have been something something very very nice and cool, but not a glue with iron guy for sure And that was not my dream either But you know what I I learned something differently if you keep your arms open and in your heart open The universe will guide you to what's necessary and what's what what people want And I thought I was guided towards working on this molecule by I don't know who but anyways I was guided to to work on to bring this to the To the world and hopefully they can experience the power of what glue time does inside a body Naturally, and so I thought this journey back in the late 90s early 2000 When I was hired to work on actually like liposomal vitamin C And they thought the vitamin C is the next the best antioxidant that ever existed so can we make it better and so I started doing some research and I found out wait a second Glutathone is by far the most powerful antioxidant ever body produces.

Why are we talking about glutathione and The doctor that hired me told me oh, no, that's too hard to work with so let's just stick to vitamin C So I did his project but on the side. I said wait a second Why is this so hard and so that was my first introduction to bring something in the marketplace back in the late 90s early 2000 and The rest as I say is history because all you can do is once your heart gets into something to work on We discovered a stable form of glutathione in seven years.

So by 2007, we already have a stable molecule It was able to get through your skin inside your cell the cell membrane took me another 13 or 14 more years to do research to figure out how much to give you how often to Give you how long can I give it to you for? Am I gonna get results results repeatedly if you take it for five ten years in a row? Is it gonna get better and better every single time? And so I had a lot of questions and not enough answers in the world So I said I'll do my own research and eventually by 2021 We were able to release the product of the to the public in the mid in the middle of the pandemic So that's my story

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Okay.

So many things here. So interesting about, you know, them saying glutathione was too difficult to study. And then, you know, you worked for years and years to get this form that we can get into our body. Something I learned in your book, actually, is so glutathione, is it the second most abundant molecule in our body?

Dr. Nayan Patel
That's right, next to water. That's crazy. It is, and the thing is, we don't even make water, we drink water.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Wow. Okay. So I mentioned in the introduction, like this word, antioxidants, and you've mentioned vitamin C now, glutathione, for listeners, because I think people hear antioxidants and they think, oh, like good things that, you know, help us.

So how do antioxidants actually function in the body? And in particular, what is the difference between, because you just mentioned we don't, we drink water, we don't, you know, create it. What is the difference between antioxidants that our bodies naturally create versus taking them in through food and supplements and things like that.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Absolutely. So that's a great question. I think there's like three or four questions in there, and I'll try to get everything into like one example. So hopefully everybody gets the whole picture of it.

But when you look at antioxidant, there's lots of fruits and vegetables and vitamins in the marketplace today that claims to be an antioxidant. At the end of the day, there are only three ways to reduce oxidation in our body. Now, the reason we need antioxidants is because our body is exposed to oxidation every single second. Because you breathe oxygen, when the oxygen gets inside your body, if it's not getting used up, the excess oxygen is actually producing oxidation to your body. When the oxidation inside your body increases to a point where your body can neutralize those oxidation, it becomes oxidative stress. And that oxidative stress leads to all kinds of diseases.

But that's a stick on the oxidation part. And so what's the big deal about oxidation? I'll give you a simple scenario. If you just take a piece of nail, an iron nail that you get it from your local hardware store, if you put some water droplets on there and put it outside in the sun, within a few days, it will get rusted, right? And once it gets rusted, that's it. And if you don't do anything about it, then eventually the whole thing will just become powder and it's gone, right? And so the whole process is called oxidation. So the oxidation is happening inside our body all the time. Either we breathe oxygen or the oxidative components that are introduced inside our body because of chemical reactions that happens every single second in our body. All those leads to oxidation and will lead to oxidative stress eventually.

So antioxidants is what we need to neutralize those parts. And that's one of the reasons why we body produces so much glutathione because it's the master antioxidant our body produces. And by the way, there's only three or four things our body produces that are considered as an antioxidant. One is glutathione. I'll put them in bucket number one. The bucket number two is the body produces three enzymes, which is catalase is one of them. Superoxide dismutase is SOD. By in short, I believe there's a major skincare company that uses SOD as their flagship product to deliver as an antioxidant. And the third product is glutathione peroxidase enzyme is GPX for short. So these three enzymes are basically are components that helps reduce oxidative stress. And I put them in bucket number two. And the bucket number three is all the antioxidants that you take from outside sources, like vitamin C. Our body does not produce vitamin C. We take it from the fruits and vegetables that we eat. Vitamin E, CoQ10, the juices that you drink and the pills you take. I mean, there's so much things that's out of the bucket number three.

And I'm going to tell you something really, really profound right now. That is bucket number one, which is glutathione. Glutathione by itself is more powerful than bucket number two and three combined.

Dr. Nayan Patel
And so I just want to make people understand that part that if you only have one chance, one chance to get yourself healthier, are you going to put yourself in antioxidants from outside sources like any carrot juice and orange juice and things like that? Or are you going to put all your faith into one molecule which is glutathione?

Which me, personally, of course, is glutathione because it's by far the most strongest one, the most powerful one, the most abundant molecule producing your body that will deal with all these problems for us.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, I see friends. This is why I love this conversation because we are actually getting the information on antioxidants. I have so many questions.

I have a very random, just really quick question to ask because I was contemplating this actually last week. When you go and you look at the steaks at the store and they're red and then some are turning brown or you have them, you bring them home and then they turn brown, my understanding is that the steak oxidized. Is that correct?

Is that why it turned brown?

Dr. Nayan Patel
That's exactly right.

Melanie Avalon
So is that, this was the question that I have. If you still eat some of the steak that had turned brown, does that have a problematic ingredient in it for your health since it's oxidized?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So there are a few components in there. You're not eating steak for antioxidants. You're eating steak for amino acids. There's a bunch of protein in there. There's a monosylic topping down into various amino acids. And that's what you're eating the steak for.

The top layer that is getting oxidized, it's the tissue that's getting oxidized. Is it bad for you to eat oxidized food? Kind of. But the thing is, the majority of the food that you're eating on the steak is inside, not the top layer of it. So the grand scheme of the whole thing is not a bad thing. Keep in mind, whenever you cook any meats, any meats, the top layer is going to get oxidized anyways, always. Because it is going to oxidize. So the top layer of all the meats is what we call them is advanced glycation end products, A-G-Es, or in short form, H. And guess what the advanced glycation end products do to you? They make you age faster. So A-G-Es are not good for you. In moderation, their body can deal with it. As long as you have enough glue or thion, they will neutralize those A-G products out of your system and you go back to normal. But eating a lot of those foods is definitely a problem. The number one food has the highest amount of A-G-Es in there, is guess what?

Melanie Avalon
while protein reacted with sugar, right? So, I mean, I don't know. I hope it's not cooked meat.

Dr. Nayan Patel
because it is the very high temperature and very short amount of time. They try to zap every single thing with a very high temperature and that that pizza has the highest amount of AGEs or advanced glycation end products in them.

Now of course if you have home-good pizzas that you do a low temperatures and different story but I'm talking about store-bought pizzas that's the same thing. So going back to your steak if it's out at the top part is brown I'll rather not have that but you know what the grand scheme is not as bad as you think it is.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much. This question has been haunting me. I said last week, that's when I was really pondering it. But honestly, for years, I think it, I think it every time. So thank you.

Little thing about the AGEs. It's just funny to me because I always assumed that it just was a coincidence that AGE, like that advanced glycation in product, that that was the acronym, but they actually purposely, it was purposeful. I think I want to, I've heard something about this. Like they actually called it that in part because it made that acronym. So the science community has their, their, their humor, I guess.

Question about the timeline because you just mentioned how there's these three different groups of antioxidants and, you know, glutathione way surpasses its potential of the second two groups. And that, that third group is the one I think most people think of with antioxidants because they're thinking of fruits and, you know, different foods that have vitamin C and vitamin E and all these antioxidants that we often think of a reason this may be a good thing. And it's going to, that will be answered in part with my question is what is the, the timeline of all of these different antioxidants and the body, the curiousness I have here, especially with the intermittent fasting podcast audience is, you know, when people are doing their fasting, we do a lot of water only fasting here. So it's not like people are going to be drinking fruit juices for antioxidants during their fast. So how does it play out when people are fasting and detoxing and needing these antioxidants and using up antioxidants, where are they coming from?

What's the timeline? So like how, how do we keep glutathione like going during our fast? If we ate antioxidants the night before, are they still around during the fast? How does that all work?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So to produce glutathione, we need three amino acids, glycine, glutamine, and cysteine. So cysteine is one of those amino acids that is not abundantly following most diet. So if you just put in a furious search engine, cysteine-rich foods. And so as long enough cysteine coming from your diet on a daily basis, you could not eat for a whole day, and your body has enough cysteine to keep on producing this glutathione for the rest of the day, not a problem whatsoever.

So we just have to make sure there's enough basic components that it needs to produce its own glutathione as it demands increases. Now when the intermittent fasting people has lived a different story because what they're triggering is autophagy or senescent cells. What's triggering is that, hey, it's trying to get rid of all these dead cells, zombie cells that could be high in inflammation and low in any kind of energy source. So you want to try to get rid of it. And so that's what the IF community was all begun with, is to increase that component. But having to produce glutathione, I mean, you can fast for a couple of days and your body still has the ability to produce its own glutathione on a regular basis as long as there's enough cysteine to die because cysteine stays in the body for a little bit longer time. I can tell you another thing because this was interesting to me when I first started doing my research in glutathione is because they were injecting this glutathione into the blood and initially they got the results. Then there was no results for a while, like for six hours or so, and they said the results again. And it says, why there was a gap? What they found out was when you inject glutathione, the body sees glutathione as a protein, that's like three amino acid chain protein. What does the body do with the protein? It chops it down into various amino acids. It does not absorb any proteins whatsoever or a peptide, whatever. So the body was chopping it down and the chopped up item was, it was chopping it down between five to 20 minutes, something like that, very short on time, it was all gone. The chopped up material was actually cysteine. So cysteine was reabsorbed into the bloodstream. And so they saw three or six hours later, there was a sudden increase of cysteine in the blood and that cysteine was actually being used to make your own glutathione naturally. So what I'm saying is that for your patients, for your community, that is fasting, as long as the diet has some sort of cysteine in there, the body will store it and use it to produce its own glutathione as it needs.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. And what I think is such a paradigm shift here for people is again, I think when people think antioxidants, the general bucket, they mostly think fruits and vegetables, like that's what they think they need to get.

And now we're talking about how glutathione is our master source of antioxidants and it's created from protein, not these fruits and vegetables.

Dr. Nayan Patel
That's right. And the thing is, okay, so we just talked about antioxidant melanin, but I think the audience needs to know that if the body produces so much glutathione, is their job is only to be an antioxidant? That's it? It's just one job, right? If we produce so much of this molecule inside the body, and by the way, the body has a system to recycle, because guess what? If the glutathione neutralizes a free radical, it itself gets oxidized. An oxidized molecule basically becomes trash, right? There's no use for it.

But the body has a system built into it where it recycles this glutathione. It accepts energy from sun and other molecules that you eat, and it becomes reduced again. So again, it becomes an antioxidant. Just to give you an example, I'm going to give you an example. You take vitamin C. Vitamin C is the number one antioxidant sold in the world today, and I'm about to tell you something that is absolutely profound. Vitamin C as a chemical is not an antioxidant. It is actually a pro-oxidant, yes, it's actually a pro-oxidant. But the thing is, at low concentration, vitamin C actually provides the energy to access form of glutathione and revives them back to normal to make it a reduced form of glutathione that can be used as an antioxidant again.

Melanie Avalon
That's mind-blowing. So you're saying the benefits, the quote, antioxidant benefits from vitamin C are actually not that. It's actually helping recycle glutathione.

Dr. Nayan Patel
That's exactly right, yeah. And the medical community knows about this thing, but they said, well, that's true, but you know what? It still works. Just because something works does not mean it is going to work every single time.

As a pharmacist, my mind is always working towards, if it works in one person, it should work on everybody. If you have a problem, if it works in one person, it should work on everybody, if it's the same problem. And if it's not, then it's not the issues with the problem, it's the issues with the product that you're using, why it's not working. And so that was my quest originally to find out. I said, if gluten is so good for you, it should work for everybody. But even the IVs did not work for everybody. Even the other technology products that are out there does not work for everybody. And my question is, why not? Why is not working for you? If your body needs gluten, it should work. And the answer is the body has to make its own glutathione from scratch. Doesn't matter what you do. And if the body doesn't have the ability to produce glutathione, you can take all the building blocks in the world and the body is not able to make glutathione. And if that happens to any one of you, you'll go down really fast. I mean, two to three years tops, you have all kinds of diseases and you have no idea what happened to you. And you get cancer, you get all kinds of things that happen to you. And all of a sudden, oh my God, you're going downhill from here. It happens that fast.

I want to make sure people understand that antioxidants that you take for fruits and vegetables are all actually reviving glutathione as an antioxidant for itself.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Okay. So some questions from there. So you mentioned this recycling power of glutathione, which is awesome.

I also read in your book that can it not be recycled when it's used for detox? Like there was a certain type where it's not recycled.

Dr. Nayan Patel
So that's the second part, right, Melanie? We talked about one job of growth is an antioxidant, and that's a big job. That's a huge job. There's a bigger job than that is to help your body, help your liver detoxify every chemicals and whatever you consume out of your body. And if you do not get the garbage out of your body, within a few days, months, or years, your body will be filled with all those toxic chemicals, and that's usually going to be the end of us as well.

So the two parts that glutathione does for us is as an antioxidant, it recycles itself as a detoxifying agent to help conjugate and get rid of the toxic chemicals outside the body. But when it does that, it uses the whole glutathione molecule once and for all. And so for detoxification purposes, your body has to keep on producing more and more glutathione all the time. Only for antioxidant purposes, the body will recycle the glutathione itself.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. So that in particular, because when people do fasting, which is very, you know, very beneficial for the body and supports health, and you were mentioning autophagy and all these things, it also, you know, upregulates the detoxification process.

So I would imagine supporting your glutathione production while you're fasting would be really, really important. Would that be?

Dr. Nayan Patel
Oh my gosh, this is one thing that we have time and time over. People that do IF intermittent fasting or just fasting is in general, their detoxification activity is skyrocketed when you add growth to the whole regimen.

It is by far the single most important thing that will make a profound impact on your health and wellness.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Okay.

Just to clarify, because I realize people might still be wondering about that, the vitamin C being a pro-oxidant thing. And you were mentioning some people, and you just mentioned now with glutathione how people take IVs and things like that, and it may or may not work for people. So with these different exogenous forms of substances, it sounds like with the vitamin C stuff, even though it's a pro-oxidant, do we need to be concerned about that, or does it all work out in the end? And then with the exogenous glutathione, and we'll talk about the form that you've come up with, but that form aside, people taking IVs and pushes and oral supplements, is that just doing nothing? Is it just sitting in the bloodstream? What is it doing?

Dr. Nayan Patel
No, so the vitamin C at low concentrations is actually providing the energy to recycle the glutathione. So it's a great product to have it, but in moderation. You don't want to over-consume vitamin C ever.

So if you take like 500 milligrams or 1,000 milligrams per day, it's plenty. It is plenty to recycle your glutathione all the time. Now, of course, if your oxidative stress is pretty high, then you may need a little bit more. But I would say that in that case, just make sure that you have enough glutathione in your body in the first place. So vitamin C will help recycle some of the glutathione. You take more glutathione to increase the concentration of those things. All the other antioxidants, so-called antioxidants in the food sources are just a helper. They're helping inch away the increase of glutathione inside your body. So I would say not to stop it, but do not over-consume any of these products, including glutathione itself, or consume that either. Now, I'll share the story about that one too, but everything in moderation is going to be good for us. Excess, the body does not have anywhere to store it and use up any excess products. So don't give anything excess to the body.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, definitely. And then for the glutathione, the exogenous, and when I say exogenous, I mean forms that you're taking in that you're not creating inside.

Are they doing anything? Are they just sitting in the bloodstream? What happens with that preformed glutathione?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So the preformed glutathione is actually in every single cell in your body. So it doesn't matter if it's blood or tissues or any cell, any cell that produces that smartochondria is going to have glutathione in that cell. So you need the glutathione in each and every cell in your body. So it doesn't sit there forever because the glutathione is a very short life also.

It stays in the body for maybe a day or at the most for two, but I don't think it goes anything beyond those two days. So the body has to constantly produce more and more products all the time. So if you fast for seven or 10 days in a row, there might be some issues. But if you're just fasting for half a day or a day at the most, it's not a big deal at all. In fact, it's helping detoxify your body as well. I'm not sure if that's the question we're asking or not.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, or so when people do like a glutathione IV, so that that glutathione, what happens with that glutathione?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So that gluten gets broken down into amino acids, cysteine gets reabsorbed, cysteine is later used to produce your own endogenous glutathione inside your body.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, we break it down and reuse it.

Dr. Nayan Patel
And that cysteine will stay in your body for maybe a day or two. So even though you take an IV, the results are not there immediately. Well, the results are there immediately before about five or 10 minutes, and then the results are not there for another six hours. And then once the cysteine kicks in, the body produces more glutathione. Now you have some more results coming in. So you may have results for another day or two at the most.

But the thing is, keep in mind, I don't care what form you take the IVs or the liposomes or the capsules, and the body breaks down and takes the amino acids and produces own glutathione. You are at the mercy of the body's ability to produce glutathione. Now don't get me wrong. You can produce glutathione until the last day. You can make new cells until the last day. Imagine you get a cut when you're 15, and imagine you're getting the same exact cut when you're 60, which is going to heal faster.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, 16.

Dr. Nayan Patel
VF15 and 16, it's going to heal much, much faster than you are at 60, 65. You know why? Because to heal, you need to have all the immune markers, all the nutrients that it needs to heal the body correctly and efficiently. So even though your body can produce glutathione until the last breath, it produces less and less and less as we age. Because I only told you in these three components, glycine, glutamine, cysteine, there's three amino acids. It also needs two enzymes. It needs two molecules of ATP, which is energy. And as you can know, people as they start aging, the energy levels is drilling down anyways, right?

So if there's no ATP energy, but if you have all the enzymes and all the amino acids, your body still cannot produce enough glutathione. And the last thing for electron transfer, you also need NAD. What if your NAD levels are low as you age, which happens all the time? And so even though you may have all the ingredients, but if you do not have the energy source to make your glutathione, your body will not be able to make enough of it. And so if you tell a 50 or 60-year-old person to take glutathione supplementation and they say, well, I get some results, but not like fantastic results, or sometimes they don't even know. They think this is the best that can happen to you. And I said, no, it's not the best that can happen to you. The best is if I get you enough glutathione inside your cells that your body is used to having when you are 10 years old, 15 years old, if I get those levels back to you, that's what your body needs. And eventually, that's what your body is going to be using to heal itself from inside out.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So that, yeah, that was going to be one of my questions earlier and you perfectly answered it, which was, I was wondering the role of just taking in the substrates that you need to create glutathione versus actually creating it, like what goes into that.

And it sounds like, you know, like you said, there's all these other things involved in AD and enzymes and the whole process. So, you know, it really requires holistic support to, you know, create this glutathione naturally when it gets harder as we age.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Let me ask you the next question. We want the body to make natural it all the glitter time. We want them to do all that work for us, right?

It's not like we want to take away that job from the body. But at the same time, as we age, if your body cannot produce enough, and if there is a way to give a little bit so that it reduces the workload for your body, that to me is still a good option than to just completely rely on the bodies that we do all the work for us.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, that completely makes sense. And now I understand better what you're saying about the pulse effect when people were taking, or I don't know what they were using in the original studies, but if a person takes an IV, they get this initial boost because it's there, but then they break it down so then you don't see it, and then it rebuilds it up again, which again, if you're, you know, aging and have other taxors and, you know, aren't efficient at producing glutathione, I guess you could take, you know, all this, all these glutathione IVs in the world, and it could be difficult for you to actually reconstitute it into the glutathione that you need.

What did you discover with the form of glutathione that you sell and that you created that I mentioned that I now take every night? So what is happening with that glutathione?

Dr. Nayan Patel
I'm going to ask you another question afterwards too, Melanie, but I'll answer your question first. So when I first created the topical version of this, again, my goal is not to create topical version, it's just that the best scientists in the world are the one that observes things and let it happen the way it comes to you, not trying to change it. And so I was not about to change the form, I was just about to change, I was just about to learn how it works. And it happened to be the topical form was the best way to get the gluten inside your body, inside your cell membrane, inside your cells itself. And so when we discovered that, what we found out was that every single human being, regardless on what genetic makeup they have, were able to absorb the gluten inside your body. And I'll tell you another about the genetic makeup. There's a very small subset of people that we do gene testings today. Now for the last 15 years, we've been able to do gene testing. So we can find out gene mapping studies for people that have gene SNPs that they cannot do certain things in their life. There's few gene SNPs, which are GSTM, GSTP, GGT, these are all different genes required to produce glutathione. And if you're a mutation and your body cannot produce those enzyme that produces glutathione, no products in the world is going to save you. And so that to me was a major, major blow.

Now if you cannot produce glutathione at all, it's an easy one you'll find out very, very soon because you're going to go down really fast. What if people have other gene mutations like MTHFR, the most common gene mutation is MTHFR or COMT, where your body can produce plenty of glutathione, but the workload has increased to double, right? Because now the methylation path is shut down, somebody needs to detoxify your body, so needs for detoxification has gone up skyrocket. Since there's no methyl groups to do that work, the work is now falls on the glutathione to do the additional work. But the body says, oh, I'm already producing maximum amount of glutathione that you need. I cannot produce any more. Now what happens? And so what I discovered is those people had a profound impact on their life immediately after they had the type of glutathione because for the very first time, they had something in the cells ready to use up and help the body detoxify them immediately. And so to me, that was like an aha moment, I said, okay, now I have something to give to everybody. What if the people have, if they're young people and they're producing a glutathione? Well, they don't need my product at that time because the body has enough of it. And it would be in my best interest not to sell them a product because I said, hey, you know what? Your body can make it enough. Just stop drinking alcohol, stop doing crazy things, don't eat junk food, just drink water, and you'll be fine. You'll be literally, you'll be fine. If you want to cheat once in a while, it's not the end of the world, but I'll try not to do that, but it's not end of the world. But if you're an older person, when I say older, I don't mean that old by the way you are.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Anybody over the age of 30 and above, they're not old, but the body is now not able to produce enough glutathione. They will have an impact immediately after using the product because it is actually getting inside your cells, right?

And when it first happened to me in 2007, I got so scared because some of the really sick people had a major detox reaction. Like when that happened, I got scared because, oh, you know what? As a pharmacist, as a medical professional, our first goal is not to do any harm. And so if I had no answers for it, I said, you know what, let me find out. So we stopped the production, we stopped selling the products. We made a prescription item only. We started talking to the doctors. And so for 14 years, all we did was sold via prescriptions and told the doctors to report back to see what kind of problems you're having.

And so we found out, actually, how much to give you, how often to give you, how long can I give it to you for? And the amount we give you, like for IVs, I can give you one grams, two grams, five grams, 10 grams of IV push, and nothing will happen to you. For the topical version, I can only give you 100 milligrams at the most 200 milligrams. And that's it.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Okay. I'm just curious because I do, like I said, I take this every night. How many sprays is that the equivalent of?

Dr. Nayan Patel
Also, four sprays is the typical dose. Four sprays is about 100 milligrams.

This is on the regular version. The plus version, I didn't even release the plus version until 2022 for the very first time. And that's because most of my clients, they get too much money and they go, if less is good, the more is better. I says, no, it's not. And they don't listen to me. So they just said, can you give me more blood? I hate to keep on applying more and more sprays. So that's why we lose the stronger version. But since we're losing the stronger version of the Glothine, we had some more studies done on that as well. And they have some merit to it as well. But overall, I still think that the regular version product is going to be sufficient for almost 90% of the people. No problem.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, okay, and so to clarify, so what you're saying with this form is that it bypasses what we were talking about earlier about needing to break down the glutathione and recreate into glutathione. This actually gets the glutathione directly into the cells to be used.

Dr. Nayan Patel
That's right. It gets in skin cells and then from there it gets transferred to the rest of the body.

Melanie Avalon
to that point. And this is something, and I know you've explained this to me before, I just can't wrap my head around this, actually with anything really.

It's hard for me to wrap my head around how whatever the supplement may be, but we'll talk about, you know, oral glutathione in this case, how putting it in one area can have a systemic effect. How does that work?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So yeah, the thing is, if you look at the medical literature, there's multiple ways the signals are transferred from one part of the body to the other part of the body. For example, if you step your foot on a nail, how fast will you take it off? It's really fast, right? But the brain got the message that, oh my God, Melanie just stepped the foot on the nail, and it hurts.

So there's a signaling from the, those are the neurons that send the signals straight to the brain. I said, hey, what do I do? I said, what do you do? Take the foot off, right? And you're done. The same signaling pathway that we have for the neurons, we also have to transport nutrients. And so every cells are closely bound to each other. Like a cell is not by itself, right? So a cell right next to it, there's another cell touching to each other. And this cell is all over the body. That's why if you put something in your tongue, under your tongue, like a sublingual drop, right? Let's say you could, let's say you took a B12 drop sublingually under your tongue. Within seconds, your brain's going to feel it, right? Or if you drink a caffeine, right? If you take a caffeine pill inside your stomach, instantaneously, within minutes, it's going to hit you, it's going to hit in your brain. How do you get transferred to all the systems, right? It's not the blood's going, the blood's not transferring nutrients. It's the cell-to-cell transfers, right? And so there's something called lipid rafts on each cell. On the lipid rafts, there's some ACE receptors. The receptor is basically accepts a nutrient from outside sources. And then once again, inside your cell, all the excess, it keeps on transferring to the rest of the body.

Melanie Avalon
Pretty magical.

Dr. Nayan Patel
The body is absolutely magical, as I said, our job is not to recreate the body, it's just understand and work with it.

Melanie Avalon
And so does it still, in addition to having this systemic effect, does it also, could you concentrate it on a certain area if needed for something on that area for skin or an injury?

Dr. Nayan Patel
This is so most of people they apply let's say for the joint issues that join directly and the pain goes over the joint right there is a local effect that's the same. Only the excess gets transported to the rest of the body so if you have let's see if you have skin issues and put in your face the facing of the first.

I refuse all use of all the price on the face that you need the rest extra yes transfer out of the rest of the body.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Yeah. Because I've been wondering actually with using the skin products, I'm like, I wonder if any excess glutathione is, if I'm getting any excess, or is it just staying local in my skin?

Dr. Nayan Patel
No, you are getting access because the skin product that I have made up is actually a little bit stronger than the regular product. And the reason I make it a little bit stronger is because most of the people that apply the skin care product is applying a very small area, a localized area only.

And so I had to make sure that I get an impact immediately. So I made it a little bit stronger skin care product so they get the localized effect faster.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. You said you had a question for me?

Dr. Nayan Patel
question for you. You said you've been using this product for a while. Can you share me a routine and what makes you use this product every single day?

Melanie Avalon
Sure. Yes. So, and I'll be curious how my routine compares to, you know, what I quote should be doing. I use it though, I use the, the Oro spray and I use it every single night. I use it at night because that's when I'm having my glass of wine and winding down at the end of the day.

And I spray it on my chest actually. I did, I knew it's funny, um, Dr. Patel, because I can remember when we first talked about this, when you first came on the show and I had just started using it, I think I'm pretty sure. Um, and it probably would have been 20 around 2022. Cause I, I think you had out, I think you would just release the extra strength version. In any case, I remember I was communicating to you that it smells soul furry. And, and I was like having to get used to that because it definitely, it definitely has a distinct smell to it. And when I first started using it, I was like, oh, this is an intense smell. I don't even really notice it now. Like I'm so used to it. It really, it doesn't bother me at all is the point. So listeners, my, my point is if the soul fur smell feels like a little bit much to you, just keep going. You won't even, you won't even realize that in the end. And the nice thing is it doesn't, it doesn't linger. It goes away pretty fast. I do a couple of sprays every night and I do it with my wine. And then if I'm, if it's a night when I'm going out and I'm having more than I am, I have it when I, when I'm going to bed and then what's the half-life on it? I might be overdoing this. If I wake up in the middle of the night, I will like spray some more on me.

Dr. Nayan Patel
It's about four to six hours, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, that's perfect. So yeah, cuz I'll usually like wake up, you know, like four hours later, and I'll, I'll spray some more. And I find it to be a wonderful tool in my toolkit for those nights out. I love it so much.

But I don't do it during the day. I wonder if I should be

Dr. Nayan Patel
No, thanks for sharing that part. The normal dose is about four sprays twice a day, and if you're going to have a glass of wine, then by the way, each glass of wine will wipe up your gluten levels to zero for the next four hours, and that's unfortunate.

Every drink of alcohol will do the part, so I'm glad that you applied the gluten right away, so that way your wine never fills the wrath of not having any gluten itself. And the reason you're waking at nighttime and applying it again, because your gluten level is not increasing fast enough, but it's an amazing tool to help you increase your deep sleep, especially after alcohol, so your HIV will not drop so low, and hopefully you'll have a restful sleep. The whole idea behind this thing is that it helps you metabolize the alcohol faster, so it does not linger on to give you the sleep disruption that it can normally cause with alcohol. But if you use it twice a day, twice a day is probably the most ideal way of using this product. And the reason is because I'm a creature of habit, right? I only use it once a day for four years, but I tell people to use it twice a day, because the thing is I never form a routine for myself. So about two years ago, I really sat down and wrote down my routine, my morning routine and evening routine, and I taped it in my room mirror, right? It's my morning routine. And then once I put the routine in the place, it took me about six weeks to do it twice a day, every day. And ever since that time, I do it twice a day, every day.

And over the years, over the last two years, I've done multiple tests to find out about my age and my metabolic markers and my organ health. And I can tell you right now, I got no problems, first of all. That's the best part is that my biological age is decreasing finally. I did another test, another one again right now. So I'll get a different number again for the next time I see you. But my overall health and wellness has just gone skyrocketed in the good direction. So all I'm saying is that, yes, it was hard for me to do it twice a day. Once I put the routine in place for the last two years, it has really transformed my whole body in the last two years, more than ever before.

Melanie Avalon
Which testing did you use for the biological age?

Dr. Nayan Patel
So, I'm using a generation lab at this time, so I'm measuring all the organ health, because you're only as good as the weakest organ, right? If one organ is telling me that you are aging 65 years of age, then I don't care if everything else is 20 years of age, my dead organ is 65, I'm 65 right now.

For example, heart. If my heart is old, if the heart gives out, does it matter if your liver is 20 years old? No.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, there's so many out there. So that's why I was really curious.

And that's a good point about looking at the organ specific ones. I love that. I might have to, okay, might have to change my routine, start having mine in the day as well.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Well, twice a day is better. But I think the morning one, I usually do it like half an hour 45 minutes before shower. So that way I wake up, I put my glove on first, do my morning meditations, my stretching. An hour later, I usually go shower. By the time it's done. So it does not see the body for long anyway. So it's okay.

Melanie Avalon
And what about the role? So my favorite of the skincare products right now, cause you have other things coming, is I love the citrine serum so much.

So your high dose, well, is it high dose vitamin C and glutathione? What is in it?

Dr. Nayan Patel
high dose vitamin C. The glutathione is just there to support the vitamin C getting into the complex, but the real work is done by vitamin C itself. Now, as you know, a body doesn't produce vitamin C. It's a pro-oxidant, but it's a very, very low grade pro-oxidant. It's enough to stimulate your cells in your face to have cognitive production, to put defense around it. So it is stimulating your body to do the right things to having cognitive production. So you have normal wrinkles, normal fine lines, things like that. So yeah, the number of products, unfortunately, people like citrine more than the glutathione itself when it comes to the face, but I'm just telling you my thing is G serum is good because yes, the results are not instantaneous, but the thing is once you do get the results, which is sometime during the cup of second, third month, it's a very profound impact in your life as well.

So that's the way I look at it, but your skincare, it's a statin skincare, right? All products are different. If you want to do one product, you submit any serum first, and then you pair that with the moisturizer that goes with that serum, and then the third thing you put the second serum on, and then the fourth thing is put the moisturizing pair that go along with it. All four products have different ingredients inside. All four work synergistically. You can start anywhere, but if you want to start anywhere, start with the serums first and then pair them with pair them with with with its moisturizer.

Melanie Avalon
And I will say to this point, because my audience has heard me talk about the importance of effective and clean and safe skincare for years and years and years. Friends, I have had conversations with Dr. Patel. I trust you so much with your production of these products.

Like we've had offline conversations about just what goes into creating them and sourcing and the materials and I just trust you so much. And I am so grateful for what you're doing with creating these products, because there's a lot of problematic products out there that not only might not be effective to the point that you would think, but also could be problematic with their ingredients and toxins and endocrine disruptors and such. So thank you for creating these products. And I know they're hard for, I know I don't wanna like speak for you, but I know a lot of energy and time and money goes into making these products and they're not easy to make, I don't think.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Thanks for saying that part because that is something that is, if I want to take the product myself, I want to clean product for myself. I don't care about anybody else. For myself, I do care as much as myself. So I want to make sure that anything that I put inside my body is clean.

So like for example, ascorbic acid, vitamin C. Ascorbic acid, again, I don't advertise this anywhere else because it's not my job to do that part. My job is just to create clean products. Ascorbic acid, 100% ascorbic acid in the United States comes from corn, all of them, right? And it's the cheapest way to get your ascorbic acid. It's the cheapest that you can buy. But guess what? All corn in the USA is GMO. It's all modified. And so I said, I cannot, even though it's a very small amount, I don't want to have to put in myself any molecule that is GMO. So guess what? The ascorbic acid that we use is non-corn-based ascorbic acid. Is it cheap? No, it's not cheap. It's not made in the United States. It's made in Europe, right? But guess what? I had to make sure that I get clean products for myself.

Now, this could be a great marketing tool if I want really to market it. But then to do that, I had to put every other product down. And that's not my goal either. My goal is to work with everybody. And I'll just do the right thing for myself. And hey, if the consumer finds out, that's good for them. But if not, I know in the back of my mind that I'm creating good products. That's how it matters.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I just, I just love and appreciate this so much. And I remember us talking about that and I was like, wow, this is legit. Like he really, he really goes, you know, all in with this, which I just so appreciate.

Dr. Nayan Patel
One more thing, Melanie, is resveratrol. Resveratrol in the whole world is laced with heavy metals. And the thing is, cosmetic companies that sell the resveratrols, guess what? They're all with heavy metals in there. But the thing is, it doesn't go through your skin, right? So it's OK.

That's what they're telling you. But with my technology, I can push it through there. And if that's true, then I don't want to have resveratrol with heavy metals in there. So I really have to find a source, again, another source, then to clean up my raw materials, completely give me metal free. And if I can get those metals, I can use what cosmetic. Again, this is not something that I like to advertise all the time. But it just tells you what I have to do to make sure that I, myself, get clean products to use on my body.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, well, it's it's super important to me and I know this audience really appreciates it as well.

So yeah, we are we are team we are team what you're doing will taking or using oral glutathione spray and then also the skincare products will by giving our body this exogenous glutathione what will our body produce less.

Dr. Nayan Patel
The answer is yes. I think it will. I think so. Again, I do not know for certain, but knowing the science, I think it will do that part because the body does not do anything excess.

The body senses that you have something. The body says, okay, I can use energy to do something else. I don't have to produce this part because we have plenty of it, right? And so being that I know that part of the science, I'm assuming the body will not have to produce glutathione. And that was the reason why I found out how much to give you, how often to give you, because I never want to shut down your own production ever, right? But I want to replace a lot of the work by giving you exogenous or outside the body glutathione. If I can do that part and still maintain the body's ability to produce glutathione, then my job is served.

Now, keep in mind, glutathione is not a hormone. It's not like if you take an exogenous glutathione and the body stops producing it, the body will forget to make it. So when you really need it, the body will not know how to make it. The example I'd like to give you is when you're building a house. If you build a house, and if you live in Georgia, you build a brick house. If you're building a brick house, I'm just joking, by the way, I live in California, and there's no brick house because of earthquake.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, whoa, I never, wait, I lived in California for 10 years. I don't think I ever put two and two together there. Oh my goodness, I'm having like a real time epiphany right now.

Dr. Nayan Patel
So let's say you're building a brick house. What's the number one ingredient you need? Bricks. The bricks, because without the bricks, there's nothing that's happening.

And so the body does not take bricks from outside sources, right? If glutathione is the number one ingredient in your body, and if you give glutathione, the body goes, no, no, no, I can't take that. If you give me a brick, I'll break it down, make it into a powder, and then I'll make my own bricks again, and then I'll use it to build a house, right? That's what the body does right now. But let's say you somehow you convince the body to give the brick, okay, so you're done. If that happens, and then you got the brick, and it's already made up and ready to go, now all of a sudden, your body says, okay, if I have the bricks, I don't have to make the bricks, I can use the same energy to do the work because the labor force is still the same. If the labor is still the same, guess what? They can do some other work. And what's the labor force in the body? ATP energy, enzymes, and NAD, and amino acids. The amino acids can be used to make a countess of the peptides and proteins. ATP energy can be used to do other peptides and proteins as well, so does the NAD. So you never lose the ability, but the number one ingredient that your body needs is given to you, so all of a sudden, how much labor force do you need now that you don't have to make the bricks? Much, much less. Much less. And that's the reason why everybody that uses a glutathione for the first time, within two weeks, you have surplus of energy, ATP. Because for the first two weeks, the body goes, oh, I have more energy. Maybe I can do this. Maybe I can do that. I can do this. And after that, I say, yeah, I did everything possible, and I just have to maintain it. So now the extra energy, it shows up in the mitochondria, and I say, now, oh, my God, I got energy. I can do better. I can function better. I can walk. I can run. I have the energy to think better. And so all of a sudden, now, every single organ cell starts getting more and more energy. And over time, over two, three, five, 10 years, every single cell in your body is going to have surplus of energy to work with. And that's my goal, right? Not to take over the body's own pressure of glaucoma is to relieve the body of the number one job it does and allow the body to do the rest of the organs and get them better.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Okay.

So basically, so while we're supplementing this, our body now has more energy, more time and resources to do other things. And if we stop supplementing, then it will just dedicate time and resources again towards creating it. It's not like it shuts off the glutathione system.

Dr. Nayan Patel
No, it doesn't shut off because the thing is, if you take too much of glutathione, your body will go to a reductive state, which is not a good state. As soon as you do that, the body will have rashes and itching and diarrhea and headaches and things like that.

You know, right away, that something's wrong, right? So you back off anyways. And the dose that we are giving you is not 100% replacement. It's like 90% replacement, maybe less than that. And so that way, you can literally do it twice a day, every day, and never hit 100% from outside sources. You still have to rely on your body's ability to make some. Now, there are people out there that have enzymes, defects, and they cannot make anything. And they need them much higher. And so that's why we created a plus version. And so those plus versions, it's a godsend for them. And so now we have both the regular version for everybody and the plus version for people that have major issues with it.

Melanie Avalon
So listeners, I bet, are super excited to start integrating this into their life. Again, I can't recommend it enough. I use it, well, every single night, and now it looks like I'm going to be using it day and night. We have a 10% discount code for listeners.

So if you go to MelanieAvalon.com slash Auro, that's A-U-R-O. That will redirect to Dr. Patel's website. Use the code MelanieAvalon10, and that will get you 10% off your order. So again, that's MelanieAvalon.com slash Auro, A-U-R-O. Use the code MelanieAvalon10 for 10% off your order. Thank you for that, Dr. Patel. And I really can't recommend this enough. It's a staple, busy staple in my life. And it's funny, so when you, I remember, I remember when I first got the pitch about your book, and I saw the title, and I was really excited because I wanted to learn about Glutathione. And I also saw that you had a company that made Glutathione products, and I was like, oh, is this book just going to be a pitch for his products? And then I read the book, and it just blew me away. I was like, whoa, this guy knows everything I could have ever wanted to know about Glutathione. So thank you. Thank you for what you're doing. Not only are you creating the products that are really changing people's lives, but you're also doing this educational piece, which I just think is so important. Yeah, and you're just such an incredible human being. So if listeners ever go to a conference, because you guys, you're at a lot of conferences, definitely go say hi to Dr. Patel, because he's a, he's a shining figure, you and your wife and the booth and everything. It's just really, really wonderful. I just love it so much.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Oh, thank you so much for that. But again, it's nothing that I'm doing. I have so many angels like yourself that has come into my life and helped me spread this word because we all know, we all know we can only survive if we work together and figure out how to live together, right? If you try to do it by yourself, every single thing, it's not fun, it's not easy, and more than likely you're not going to be able to make it. But if you work together, I think we can all survive and we can all live for a very, very long time.

We've been very healthy. So I appreciate you having me here today and passing this message around. I know there's a part of this about intermittent fasting, so I just want a last foot for thought for people that are doing IF or fastings in general. It's a really, really good thing for a lot of people, not necessarily good for everybody, but it's absolutely an amazing thing for a lot of people. I have done myself intermittent fastings for a very long period of time, and I still do it on a regular basis as well, except for once in a while I may cheat on a Saturday or Sunday with my kids. But other than that, I do practice intermittent fastings all the time.

And with the help of glutathione, my inflammation markers have completely gone down. And so I just want to make sure that people, when you do these kind of things, I want to help people for this community because their goal is to get rid of all these dead cells, the zombie cells, or things like that, and those are mainly for inflammations. And once you get rid of those things, your inflammation will come down. Glutathione is absolutely going to be helping you in this wellness journey.

So please make it part of your routine and please support Melanie for what an incredible job she is doing to spread this word. So thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, I just think this is one of such a key important thing, especially for people with a fasting lifestyle.

We didn't even touch on this, but in your book, you talk about its role in fat burning and just all the things. What's next for you right now? Anything?

Dr. Nayan Patel
Absolutely. We've been studying for the last few years, another peptide molecule. It's a 3-aminosuccine peptide, GHK. It's called the beauty peptide. The reason is because it is a signaling molecule for your skin cells to do the things to get your skin back to normal or younger. And so with our technology, we will be able to do this GHK copper. We just did a human trial for 30-patient trials and about from patients, for people from 33 years of age to about 70 years of age, something like that. And the results are absolutely mind-blowing.

So I want to make sure that people have access to it. So I am going to fast-track this product, and I'm going to be able to make this product available in the third quarter, sometime in the middle of the third quarter. And so I know this is October, but it's going to be available to everybody really, really, really soon right now. So please watch out for that one. As soon as it comes in, I'm hoping that everybody gets to try it for 30 days and see the results that we are seeing in the clinical trials over here. It's just crazy.

Melanie Avalon
And actually to that point, so a few quick points about it. One, when I saw you at the conference, you had samples of it and I am so excited and it's such a pretty blue color. It's so pretty.

Listeners, stay tuned for episode 448. I'm having Jay Campbell on for that episode and he's like the peptide guy. And I don't think we actually talked about it in that conversation, but in conversations I've had with him and in his book, he's talked about this peptide, this copper peptide and how just mind-blowingly incredible it is for the skin in particular. Because he talks a lot about how most peptides with the skin don't actually do anything or certain forms don't work, but he talks about how this copper peptide is really, really incredible. So I'm excited. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait to start trying it and using it. And that's incredible about the studies. Congratulations, by the way. I know that's a lot to do those studies.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Absolutely.

I think, see Melanie, you go to all the medical conferences so you get a sneak peek when I give to the doctors and so you got early access to it because the doctors had this access for over two years now and they have been raving about this product for a while but the thing is until I see the data coming through it I don't I don't release the products I have to see the data coming in before I release the product to the public and so now the data is in I cannot wait to get this out to the public now.

Melanie Avalon
It's so exciting, I can't wait either. So, okay, fingers crossed.

Hopefully it will be out by the time this airs. If not, stay tuned for it. And I'm assuming it'll be on the website with all the other products.

Dr. Nayan Patel
It will be there. Yes, it will be there.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Okay. So again, listeners, friends, go to melonyavlon.com slash auro use the coupon code Melanie Avalon 10 you'll get 10% off site wide there.

That's where you can get that transdermal spray that I love the skincare products, the citrine and then hopefully soon the copper serums the copper peptide. So thank you so much, Dr. Patel. This was so fun. I just I love talking to you. I always just feel so much lighter. You're such an incredible human being and can't wait to see you hopefully soon at another at another conference. Are you going to eudaimonia by chance?

Dr. Nayan Patel
No, because that week I'll be in Mexico. Oh, Mexico.

Melanie Avalon
Hopefully see you at another one soon, for sure.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Yes, for sure.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Well, have a beautiful rest of your day and I will talk to you soon.

Dr. Nayan Patel
Thank you so much for having me. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Sep 29

#441 – Fasting And Smoking, Are 12-Hour Fasts Harder, Fasting Mediterranean Diet Health Benefits, When To Take Supplements, Fasting Social Reactions, Fasting In Older Adults, And More!

⁠The impact of intermittent fasting and Mediterranean diet on older adults' physical health and quality of life: A randomized clinical trial⁠⁠

Welcome to Episode 441 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 441 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 441 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad
Hey, Mel. How's it going? I'm doing great. I'm doing really good today.

It's my weekend here. So I'm feeling pretty relaxed, but excited to be back on deck with you again, which is always exciting. And I'm still in Australia. How's everything going in ATL? How's your weekend been so far?

Melanie Avalon
Things are good. Barry, I wish you could have gone with me last night or the night before, whenever it was, to the event I went to. You might have seen it on Instagram. It was a women and wine event.

Barry Conrad
What happens there?

Melanie Avalon
It was the first annual women and wine event at the Fox Theater, which fun fact, I didn't know this. So the Fox Theater here at Atlanta where I go all the time and see shows, they are the highest grossing theater under 5000 seats in the entire world this year and last year.

Isn't that wild?

Barry Conrad
That's very impressive.

Melanie Avalon
So like ticket sales, wine sales, highest grossing, entire world under 5,000. Like it's a really, it's a big theater, but it's not, you know, like a stadium. Yeah, so kudos to them.

But last night or the night before, I went to this Women in Wine event and they had a lot of wineries represented from all over. They had a lot of local Atlanta, like people who are big in the wine sphere, like Sommelier's and like a girl from like the Sommelimpics and like local wine shops and you got to do tastings. And I actually found, I like went around, I felt really bad because I went, there were so many tastings and I would basically, this is how the conversation would go most of the time. I would like go up to the, you know, the booth or whatever. And I'd be like, do you have any organic wines? And if they're like, they usually be like, well, you know, no, but you know, and I was like, and I'd be like, okay, well, I only drink organic wine, then I would like leave. I felt really bad, I felt like really unsupportive.

So yeah, and then, and the second question was like, do you have any low alcohol wines? And they were just, yeah, I met, I met like this incredible, this incredible woman who works at, or who has a winery called Ancient Oak Cellars in California and she like used to be a neuroscientist and I don't know, it was really exciting.

And then I found this one winery that made these epic wines that were not technically organic, but you know, practicing organic and then low alcohol and tasted delicious and then very, are you ready? So they did like a panel and then they were giving away wines with raffle tickets and I won the first wine. Do you know the moment of like holding the raffle ticket and they like read the numbers and it's like your number? It was like a $500 bottle of wine.

Barry Conrad
That's awesome. What kind of one was it?

Melanie Avalon
It's a Chardonnay.

Barry Conrad
And you don't normally drink, you drink a lot more red, right? So this is a good little change.

Melanie Avalon
Why I'm not going to, so it was, it's called, it's called Morley. Apparently it was like a really exclusive bottle.

I'm going to give it to my dad for Christmas. He doesn't listen to the show, so he won't know that.

Barry Conrad
That's a really good gift. Five hundred dollar bottle of wine, damn.

Melanie Avalon
I know and but like the moment of I was getting like all the flashbacks of childhood when you're like doing raffles and bingo and Stuff. Have you ever won anything like?

Barry Conrad
It's such a good feeling because like, it's like, it's me, it's me. It's like, what numbers is me?

Melanie Avalon
It's okay, I like jumped up like screaming. Everybody's like cheering. I feel like I've like saved the world or something.

Barry Conrad
I could just pick your face you'd be so happy.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Wait, what's it? What's the biggest thing you've won?

Barry Conrad
biggest thing that I've won. Gosh, like, I think like a meat hamper, which is actually perfect for me because I like me. Oh, what? A meat hamper.

Melanie Avalon
A what? A meat hamper?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, you know what that it like it's kind of like basically like a big thing of me like a basket for like all this Meat like steaks, you know, do you guys have to have meat hampers and stuff? That's very Aussie

Melanie Avalon
oh okay like a gift basket yeah yeah like a meat box like a box of meat yeah

Barry Conrad
Meet hamper

Melanie Avalon
Meat hamper is not coming up like it's like the thing I mean, it's coming. Wait, meat hamper Australia. I'm seeing if this is like an Australian word. This is like a meat hamper, you know, beef. You know what? And this must be Australian because like the first thing that comes up is beef and brew, gift, hampers made in Australia, Australian meat, emporium, gift packs with hampers are artisan hampers.

Okay. Meat mates.

Barry Conrad
All these different things. It's going to be changing soon. You know, the more I, when I'm back home, it'll be all the same. Yeah, that's exciting though. The wine, that's so cool.

Melanie Avalon
It was so fun and it was really nice to be in a supportive community of a lot of women, empowering women and all the things. So it was fun, but you could have come with me and had fun.

Barry Conrad
That's just a woman's thing, right? Isn't it just like, you know, a lot of estrogen?

Melanie Avalon
It was called women and wine, but there were some men there supporting the women. If you like to support the women, oh, oh, and then, wait, actually really quick, my favorite wine that I got, like it was like a man, there was like a lot of men representing the places.

And then at the very end, so not only did I want a bottle of wine, by the end I had a lot of wine in me. And then they just came up and like gave me another bottle. I don't even know who gave it to me, but my friend was like, they said they have a gift for us. And then yeah, they came and just gave us more bottles of wine. And I don't know who gave it to me. I know somebody specifically wanted to give it to us, but I don't know who it's like, it's like secret Santa or something.

Barry Conrad
It's like a wine admirer, an admirer of yours. Yeah.

How good is that? How about you? You know what? I think I may have mentioned this to you, Mel, but early this week, actually, I was walking into the rehearsal room, into the building.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I'm excited. I was hoping you're going to tell this story.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. And our director for Destiny, the play that I'm doing, her name is Zindzi Okenyo. She's amazing. Shout out to Zindzi.

She was walking up with the headphones on. It's like, Hey, how's it going? It's like, I just finished, I was just listening to you listening to your podcast. I'm like, which one is because the intermittent fasting podcast. And it's like, really? And my face lit up and she had so many genuine questions. She's like, it's so interesting. Wait, so we need to talk about this. And she was like trying to ask all these questions before we got started for the day. And she's like, I actually think I want to give this a go. I have more questions. I'll talk to you at lunch. And so she was super curious about it, but I was also saying to Mel listeners, how people can get, so after spending a bit of time with you, because now we're three weeks in, right? So people see you during lunch break and whether you eat, whether you don't eat and people are like, so I've noticed, you're not really eating, you're not really eating, like what's the deal? And then they start asking and it's like, yes, now I can share about it. But I will say reactions go from shock to offended to curious to like, super curious. So it's really interesting to see people's journey. Cause they see that you're not making it a big deal. And then they start asking more about it. And then they listened to the podcast and now someone else is listening to it as well. So it's great.

Melanie Avalon
So amazing when you and I were talking about it before and you were mentioning it now, it's like you got to let like not them come to you but you know like we don't go out there just like preaching fasting and throwing in people's faces like let the people ask the questions when they want to. I feel like most people come around like as far as like not being shocked anymore at the very least.

Barry Conrad
Definitely. And even Kirstie Morelia was also the playwright. When I told her, she's like, oh, you fast. How long? And I said, 20 hours. And she goes, 20 hours. She was like, she literally like, she was so shocked. And then now she's just so curious about it. She's like, that's so cool. Asking all these questions. It's great.

I love it. I love when people come to us and we have the podcast that we can just say, listen to this and answers all the questions.

Melanie Avalon
And to that point, so like the 20 hours reaction, I remember it's so like interesting to think back on our own lives. Like I remember back in the day when 20 hours would have seemed like so long to me, you know, but now that doesn't even like, I don't even think about hours really.

Like nothing faces me. Remember before you tried like, like way back in the day, 20 would have seemed kind of crazy.

Barry Conrad
And also I think when people realize you've been doing it for a long time as well, that's like, ah, so this is not just like a week long thing like you've been doing for like seven years. Yeah, exactly.

Melanie Avalon
Not a fling.

Barry Conrad
Not a fling. So shout out to, and again, like, I think I can speak for both of us when I say that we definitely do not, as Melanie said, preach to anyone about this.

Like we love this. And that's why Melanie created this podcast and why I'm a co-host. We genuinely are passionate about intermittent fasting. And it's so great when people have questions and they're happy to share, but we never, I don't think either of us lead with, Hey, I'm Barry and I'm an intermittent fasto. Like, it's just, it's not our shtick. And I don't think that's any way to be in general, whether that's any kind of views, you know, like, let me preach at people and hit them over the head with what I think, you know,

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. Like, I'm really fascinated by the concept of identity in general. And I don't, at least for me, I don't feel like my identity should ever be wedded to something that I do, even though I probably do that.

I probably consider actually, I'm like saying this, but then I actually do think of myself as like a podcaster, like a, but but I don't know, the idea of like identity and like, I'm a vegan or I'm a faster, I'm a carnivore is really interesting, because life changes.

Barry Conrad
It does. It really does.

Melanie Avalon
And you don't have to do like one window your whole life either with fasting.

Barry Conrad
I also did say to Kirsty, shout out to Kirsty as well, I said to her, this is a way, it's not the way, like nothing that we do is the way, like this worked for me and I love it so much, but I'm not trying to tell you that you should do it or you have to do it to be happier, to be healthy. I can share why it's so beneficial, but I'm not trying to tell you or preach to you and she was like, oh, that's so true and that's right.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, exactly. Like, I think if anybody ever says like, this is the only way, especially like diet and fitness, like, probably don't listen to them, or listen and take what's helpful. But you know, be skeptical and congrats on destiny.

So this comes out September 29. So the show will be going on, right?

Barry Conrad
So the show and put it just just finish so yeah you like.

Melanie Avalon
Well, congratulations, very future berry.

Barry Conrad
I know. That's pretty well. The time is flying, so it's going pretty quickly. When you have it.

Melanie Avalon
Having fun. Yeah. All right. Well, shall we jump into some fasting things, speaking of?

Let's do it. So I have a study to start us off with. So this study is called the impact of intermittent fasting and Mediterranean diet on older adults, physical health and quality of life, a randomized clinical trial. So this was published in nutrition, metabolism and cardiovascular diseases, May 2025. So this year, pretty new. And what I liked about this study, so I feel like there can be a problem sometimes, not a problem, but something to keep in mind with a lot of intermittent fasting studies is they'll just look at like fasters versus non-fasters, but then that doesn't really take into account what the people are eating, you know, which sometimes that's the point because sometimes what you're looking for is can just fasting, you know, have certain effects regardless of what you're eating. It's also nice though, if you're eating the same thing, because then you can more tell specifically like the actual effects of the fasting, because the diet is controlled to be the same. And what's interesting about this study is they were looking at they were using a quote, like a healthy diet that has been shown to have beneficial effects and then comparing it, that healthy diet to that diet plus fasting. And the diet they're using was the Mediterranean diet. So the study included, they started out with 20 people ended up with 17. And it was all adults over the age of 60. So this was older adults. And they were given a Mediterranean diet that was tailored to their preferences. So they made sure that it was a diet that they, you know, enjoyed. And it included things like olive oil, fish, nuts, legumes, fruit, whole grains, they were encouraged not to eat refined grains. Let's see what else. The specific things they were encouraged to do was three pieces of fruit per day, whole grains instead of refined grains, legumes two to four times per week, vegetables two times per week, olive oil as the main fat, eating more fish than meat, avoiding red and cured meat, eating three to seven eggs a week, eating two servings of dairy products per day. Interesting. So they had, again, so they had the Mediterranean diet or they had a Mediterranean diet with time restricted eating. And this was not a long fast that they had them do. So the people who were doing the Mediterranean diet with fasting, it was only 12 hours. For me, I would put that at like bare minimum. I feel like 12 hours is right when you're kind of switching over to the fasted state. So it's interesting to me that they found the effects they found, even with such a small fast. And even with not that big of a difference from the control group who weren't fasting, because those people, their fasting time was anywhere from eight to 10 and a half hours. So some of the people in the non-fasting group were still just not that far away from 12 hours. But the average amount of fasting time in the non-fasting group was 9.11 hours. They found both groups, so things in common. They both had improved quality of life. They both had better stool consistency and regularity.

Melanie Avalon
So constipation and digestive issues can definitely be an issue for people. And I think constipation, especially in older adults, can be a problem.

So it's nice that they saw improved quality there. As far as the markers they were looking at, so the fasting group specifically saw significant reductions in their BMI, so in their weight, in their waist circumference, their hip circumference, and their blood pressure. So it seemed that the fasting arm had a greater effect on central adiposity, so that unhealthy visceral fat around the waist, which is really important for health, like not having that. So the fasting had a more beneficial effect on that and also a more beneficial effect on liver health accordingly. Interestingly, they saw a better effect on GGT in the Mediterranean diet. And GGT is a liver enzyme that can be elevated and it was actually not, it was benefited more by the non-fasting group. And I was really hoping that they would comment more on why that might be, but they didn't really. All they said was that the significant decrease in GGT levels in the Mediterranean diet group, compared to the fasting group, aligns with the results of a meta-analysis conducted by Sanguini et al., which reported a significant reduction in GGT levels across the eight included studies. So the conclusion of the researchers was that both of these approaches, so just the Mediterranean diet and the Mediterranean diet with fasting, had positive effects.

So they, just in general, they positively influenced various health conditions and individuals over age 60. That said, specifically the fasting group resulted in significant reductions in BMI, waist, hip circumference, and also systolic blood pressure. Something though that was interesting was the Mediterranean diet group only. So the non-fasting group, 100% of them wanted to keep going when it was done. They felt like they could keep going and adhere, but only 20% of the fasting group did. So I'm really intrigued by this because in the past, I feel like in general, one of the benefits of fasting type approaches is adherence usually tends to be high.

I've seen so many studies on this where when people do fasting, they are really able to adhere to it without wanting to drop off or stop doing it. And so something I wonder, so they have some ideas that they proposed for why this may be. This study took place in Spain, and they said that Spain actually has one of the longest eating windows anywhere. So they start eating at like 7 a.m. normally, and they tend to stop eating it. They'll have dinner at 10 p.m. So the population is a population that is not used to the fasting type approach. It also might be that older adults have problems adhering to the fasting approach than younger populations. And then my theory about it is, this is my theory, is because they were putting them on a Mediterranean diet, I would imagine that that naturally, because now they're switching to like a whole foods type diet, a healthy diet,

Melanie Avalon
they probably naturally were calorie restricting, or at least compared to what they were before. So it could be, I have a few theories, it could be that the, you know, switching to a diet that would create more of a calorie restriction and fasting, which is too much for them to adhere to. And they're older and they're in Spain, where they're used to eating all throughout the day. But basically, so I found it really interesting that there were more beneficial effects in the fasting group.

And yet they, you know, were not so much down to continue doing it, only 20% wanted to keep doing it. So yeah, Barry, do you have thoughts on this?

Barry Conrad
That's such a great study, and to echo what you just said just now, I think that's really surprising because you say that the Mediterranean diet group who also fasted was only 12 hours, which is not long.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that reminded me of my other thought, which is like, maybe they weren't actually getting into the fasted state enough to get the appetite suppression effects, you know? Because it's like, if you're just like, if you're right at the cusp, but you're not actually really getting into ketosis, because you're not fasting long enough, then you're probably just going to kind of feel the misery of not eating without it, without it becoming easy. So in a way, like, fasting less can actually make it harder, I think, for some people.

Barry Conrad
Definitely. It's not surprising. I mean, it is, but now that you said that, that's a good point. You're just not there yet.

You haven't really switched into that state. You're still in the struggle street state. Because it's only what? Nine and a half hours on average for the nonfasting group and then 12 hours for the other year. That's not much time difference at all between the two.

Melanie Avalon
I almost wonder like if they have been fasting in the fasting group like 14, 15, 16 hours, would it have been easier for them? I think it actually might have been.

Barry Conrad
I had a thought when you're talking about the blood work as well.

My mom actually told me just two days ago that she started intermittent fasting.

I think I told you that, but she just got her bloods done.

And she said, she's like, I've just got my bloods done.

And they're like, amazing.

Like the best they've ever been.

And when I did them last year, they were not great.

And the only thing that I've changed is now I'm consistently intermittent fasting.

So,

Melanie Avalon
Oh wow, amazing.

Barry Conrad
It's amazing. She said it's definitely the fasting. That's really encouraging.

It's great that the BMI went down. It's great that they're still finding these benefits, even with just the 12-hour fast. It just goes to show you don't have to, even though, yes, maybe you're not feeling like you're in that state because it's 12 hours, there's still benefits. Non-scale.

Melanie Avalon
So yeah, it's like, it's funny, because we're saying both things. We're saying like, maybe the less fasting made it harder. And maybe they would have seen more benefits.

But still, like you said, literally, they said, TRE, so time restricted eating combined with the Mediterranean diet offers superior health benefits compared to the Mediterranean diet alone. So they still saw benefits even with not that long of a fast. And something of note, that's something I was going to note was was going to point out they did, like teach the people how to ease into fasting. So they did like counsel them on how to do that.

Barry Conrad
I wonder how they show them that. I wonder how they demonstrated it or if they just sent them a document to read or how that worked.

I can tell you. Let's see. I also thought it was really interesting about the GGT and why it improved a bit better in the nonfasting group.

Melanie Avalon
So GGT, I know it's related to muscle. It's like it's a liver enzyme

Barry Conrad
But I wonder what the difference would be if it's just a few hours, essentially.

Melanie Avalon
So it's an enzyme primarily found in your liver. It's also in your bile ducts, your kidneys, your pancreas and your spleen. It plays a key role in the transport of amino acids and in the body's glutathione metabolism, which is crucial for detox.

Let's see. So, well, TragiBT is saying that fasting can potentially affect GGT, but usually only mildly and not in a way that's likely to cause major spikes or drops. Yeah, I really wish they had commented more on it because I found that really interesting but they kind of didn't really talk about it. To answer your question about how they were taught to do fasting, and before I say that, just because I'm reading now, they said they chose a 12-hour fasting period because it is less restrictive than shorter eating windows and it aligns more closely with typical eating patterns, making it easier for older individuals to adopt and maintain. They were guided through a structured process. So they had a consultation and then they got detailed instructions on how to gradually adjust their meal timing. So for example, because they got to pick their eating window, so if they typically ate from 7 a.m. to 9 p.m., then they were advised to make their first meal 8 a.m. and 8 p.m. and then slowly, well, I guess that would have done it. That would be a 12-hour window. But so they were advised on how to shift it down.

Barry Conrad
This isn't related but not, but this week we had our first, well this will be in the past now, but when we had our first full run-through of the play and they introduced actual edible food because there's scenes where we're actually eating, like there's something called a...

Melanie Avalon
Can you actually eat on stage?

Barry Conrad
you actually eat. So there's a, it's something called a Bri in South Africa, which is a barbecue. I've talked about that before. And basically we had like baked potatoes or barbecue potatoes. And I just decided I'm going to do it. It was like, I want to say, it was like 10 30, 11 AM in the morning. But I thought for the sake of everyone is using drinking the liquids and eating the foods for the purpose of the scene. So it was like, I'm just doing it today, but I'll tell you Mel, as soon as I had that one bite of potato, for the rest of the day, I was in agony. It was like, Oh, I'm so hungry. And just again, I'll let it again. Like I don't think about, I do not get hungry when I'm fasting. I don't.

Melanie Avalon
It's so true. And it's wild how like the one little bite can because it starts back up that digestive system, messes with your insulin, like it's kind of crazy to me, you know, and people might not understand if they haven't tried fasting, they're like, Oh, how can one bite, you know, matter?

I'm like, Yeah, I just need to stay in the fastest state in my good my good zone.

Barry Conrad
But that also again relates back to the group doing 12 hours, maybe it's just not quite enough time to get past that feeling of like, I'm hungry, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that's what I feel might be happening. So, okay.

Barry Conrad
Great study, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you. And also congrats on your first full run.

Barry Conrad
Thank you, thank you.

Melanie Avalon
I mean every, every episode, sorry, every show you eat on stage.

Barry Conrad
Yes, there's a scene where I drink quite a lot, but it's just water and a beer bottle, which is fine, which is fine. I also, by the way, I also have to smoke on stage.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, you know what we should talk about the question that was related to that actually like actually spoke like cigarette spoke

Barry Conrad
So with theater, and they do this in screen as well, they have like menthol cigarettes. So it looks exactly like a cigarette. It's not completely foolproof.

So I'm going to talk to them to see if there's another option as well, because the menthol, it kind of inhibits that it makes you feel like you can inhale more smoke because you don't feel that, that, you know, nicotine in that, that tobacco. So that can still be damaging if you're inhaling so much more, because it's easier to smoke, but I have to smoke in the, the play a couple of times. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, wow. So it's is so it does have it is like smoking, it's just less of the stuff.

Barry Conrad
It's like menthol, I need to, it's not technically toxic, but I think cause you're inhaling more smoke easily, it's still going to make you more prone to.

That's not great.

So I'll see if there's another solution, but it's, I got to do it for the.

Melanie Avalon
looked it up. Yeah, I just looked. I just, I just asked Chad about it. It says menthol smoking is toxic with some added concerns. Oh.

Barry Conrad
Oh gosh, okay.

Melanie Avalon
All cigarettes contain harmful substances tar carbon monoxide formaldehyde benzene ammonia arsenic whoa hydrogen cyanide I didn't know that what menthol adds menthol is a chemical that gives a cooling menti sensation it doesn't eliminate the toxins it just masks it increases nicotine absorption.

Barry Conrad
Well, I'm going to ask if, because I know there's two different options, but that's the one that they cost. Well, that's not great because I used to be a smoker. I think I've told you this before.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, they're banned in the European Union and Canada.

Barry Conrad
Really?

Melanie Avalon
uh-huh

Barry Conrad
So, listeners, don't do as I do. I'm doing this for a role, an acting job, but I'm going to try to see if there's a different solution or a different type of cigarette, because I do need to smoke for the play, but...

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, we did not plan this. But we have a question about this. We didn't plan this at all. Should we do the question about this?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it. So Amy sent an email in and the subject heading was smoking while doing IF. And she's like, I know, I know. Smoking is bad, but this is a question from my husband who wants to start doing IF along with me.

He is doing OMAD and eats around 6 to 7 PM and doesn't have any snacks. But he tends to smoke throughout the day. So is smoking during his fasted period? He is doing IF for weight loss purposes, because clearly he's not too healthy if he's still smoking. Anyway, does smoking increase insulin slash break a fast? Should he increase his eating window and only smoke during the window? Melanie, what do you think?

Melanie Avalon
Really good question and interesting. I don't think we've received this question on the show before and like over 440 episodes and the answer is gonna be really interesting at least I think it is so smoking I mean, I think most people are pretty much aware that smoke like smokers tend to be thinner and Smoking is linked to weight loss and there's a few different reasons for that but nicotine itself Seems to have a lot of beneficial effects on Weight specifically so it has a an appetite suppressing effect nicotine does it affects energy expenditure in part by actually it actually can encourage the formation of brown adipose tissue and Like it affects the the regulation of energy there and what brown adipose tissue is it's it's basically called brown fat And it's a type of fat that actually burns calories for energy So it's a healthy type of fat So nicotine has a beneficial effect by increasing energy expenditure in that type of fat in your body Again, and then it can also turn white fat into that brown fat but also could help with glucose regulation and it can increase just energy expenditure in general and The way it does this it might do this by affecting activity in our hypo thalamic Neuropeptide system in our brain also by affecting AMPK, which is something we talk about a lot in this show But AMPK is an energy sensor mechanism in the body that it's activated by fasting.

It's protective of longevity nicotine might actually like increase those levels and this is a reason that I think smoking tends to be Ironically, it's been linked to longevity in certain populations like certain Centenarian populations Some of them it's thought that like there's smoking might actually be having a beneficial effect.

I know this is really controversial and wild I'm not seeing the smoke smoking isn't that good? Congratulations, by the way, very on quitting because I know that's you know, really hard and not easy to do and at the same time Nicotine does seem to have beneficial effects.

I Like the dopamine effect from it. It's preventative of Parkinson's maybe preventative of Alzheimer's so this is a long way of saying that nicotine itself and because you're getting nicotine from smoking it actually May help weight loss.

It's not gonna hurt your your weight loss effects Does it break the fast? No, it doesn't have calories in it And if anything, it's like I said helping you burn fat And I know that's a really like ironic a controversial answer, especially because you know, you're saying Amy for your husband. He's doing IF for weight loss Because he's clearly he's not too healthy if he's still smoking So yes the smoking very unhealthy not good That said smoking is probably actually helping him in his weight loss efforts So just as like a heads up if he stops smoking, you know, he might gain weight He might find it harder to lose weight So he might want to try a like a nicotine type patch approach, especially if he's weeding off and then as well The smoking itself is not gonna break the fast.

Melanie Avalon
That said the opportunity I see here is If he's just smoking in his eating window, then he's cutting down on smoking, which is great. So I almost wish it did break the fast because then you could be like, oh you can't have it while fasting because You know because then that would be a way to kind of like help cut down on the smoking So should he only smoke during the window? I'd say yes because that's Gonna help with his health and getting off of smoking.

Does it break the fast? No.

What are your thoughts Barry?

Barry Conrad
Oh, you answered that. You nailed that. Mel was so great at exactly what you said.

Smoking, it doesn't really, it doesn't trigger an incident response like carbs or anything else. So it's not technically breaking it as a former smoker. It's really, really hard to quit. It took me three times to quit, but it's so worth it. I think that baby steps and progress over perfection. So I think, no, I think I know it would be beneficial for him to stick to, or to try smoking within his eating window. Cause as Mel said, it's going to help him maybe wean off it over time. And also, yeah, you'll just be smoking less, which means better health. So there's nothing more that I can really add to that, but it is really interesting how I did not know that it had all those benefits as well.

And all like nicotine. And also it made me want to ask, how did you, and why did you want to start wearing a patch? Like who told you about it? How did you find it about that? Do you really notice much of a difference? Yeah, that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon
I have a question for you as well about your experience quitting. But to answer your question, when did I first start using nicotine patches? I've used them for a long time.

They're actually, they're kind of, they're one of the things in the biohacking world that people experiment with. I think I probably just heard about them on different podcasts. Like I know Dave Asprey has talked about them a lot as have other like biohacking type people. And I've like seen the beneficial effects on them for like the studies on them for being preventative for cognitive decline and Parkinson's and the way for me personally, cause I think, I think when it comes to any sort of substance, so alcohol, nicotine, marijuana, even like psychedelics, like they're all these different caffeine, like all these different substances, some work well with people's body chemistry, some don't, or even all the, even like pharmaceutical drugs, like, you know, people who are, take like Xanax or something, like people react all differently to different substances. So I think it's important to know things important to like weigh the cost benefit of things, the harm or not, you know, how addictive is it to you? How does it make you feel? Like again, what is the cost benefit? And when it comes to nicotine patches, I can't, like you don't have the carcinogenic effect of smoking. Yes, it can be addictive at the same time. You don't have the addiction, social cues of smoking. So it's not like where, cause a lot of, I've, and I'd be curious your thoughts, your thoughts on this, but from what I've read, a lot of smoking addiction, a lot of it can be the, like you're used to like having a cigarette and like that, like that activity itself becomes really addictive in addition to the nicotine, whereas like with a patch, if you've never smoked and you're only doing a patch, you just put a patch on or don't put a patch on. And you can like titrate up dose or titrate down dose. So you don't have that, that environmental social thing that comes with smoking that I think can be really hard for people to get through. But I just really liked the way dopamine makes me feel like it makes my brain really alert, helps me focus. Yeah, I don't see any, I don't personally experience any negative effects from it. And if I were to not put one on, I probably wouldn't notice if that makes sense. So like, I like the added benefit I get, but if I don't put one on, I don't really, it's not a big deal. I will say if you experiment with the nicotine batch, start slow, because if you just, you will get sick if you put on too much, trust me. And I didn't realize it the first time either, because I put one on and I, and then I got so sick, like I was like throwing up and I was like, what is happening? I haven't, and then I was like, oh, so yeah, be careful. When you quit, what was the thing that, because it's that you said it took you three times, what, like what actually did it for you the third time?

Barry Conrad
Thanks for sharing before as well. I'm really curious to maybe even try out this patch situation.

Melanie Avalon
I love my nicotine.

Barry Conrad
The three times were in a pretty short-term succession, like I tried three times, but the biggest kicker for me was my voice and my career and health. I'm so passionate about my health and fitness and always have been.

I'm like, long game, do I want this? Do I want this to be in my life long-term? No. So, I just kind of had to do it. Like the why became bigger than the habit.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, totally makes sense. It's funny.

So when I was looking through my goodie bag from the last biohacking conference they and one of the things in it because they gave us like a lot of things. One of the things was actually like nicotine, like chewable things. I actually haven't tried it because I've actually never tried like a chewable nicotine. Maybe I should try it sometime.

But I just think it's funny that that was literally in like our biohacking like gift bag.

Barry Conrad
And so I need to try these things. I just had no idea that even the patch was a thing. Like you could wear one just to like, do you feel, is it like a, is it a slow release since like, what's the situation?

Melanie Avalon
I buy a 21 milligram patch and I cut it into four.

So, you know, a little bit over three milligrams and it's slow release.

And that's, so it's a tiny amount that I'm putting on.

I've done more than that in the past, but interesting.

Yeah.

And it feels for me, it just, it's kind of just like a little, like, little dopamine, some good focus, you know, feeling productive.

Barry Conrad
Well, Amy, we hope that that is helpful, and good luck to your husband. Hopefully that'll keep us posted.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, please, please do, please do. I wish you could tell them that it breaks the fast, but to be super clear, I'm not saying to smoke. Smoking, not good. Carcinogenic, not good.

Barry Conrad
Isn't that so interesting that this is the first, like, I'm surprised. I've actually never thought of that, of people asking those questions like, does smoking break the fast? No one's ever asked that before.

Melanie Avalon
If anything it supports the fast ironically because it i don't want to say that but you know it helps you burn fat increases energy expenditure it kills your appetite that's why just try nicotine instead if you want those benefits.

Barry Conrad
my mom's side of the family, Mel, like smokers, like really, really smoke. And they always used to say, yeah, it doesn't make me angry.

I could just, I just have to just keep smoking. I don't get angry. You just like, you know, they just smoke away.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, a lot of people, that's why people, you know, stop smoking and they gain weight.

Barry Conrad
We're not sent to smoke, everyone just saying disclaimer or not, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I know, I know, I have to be so clear about that.

Barry Conrad
Okay, so Kimberly on Facebook asks when to take supplements. I overthink this.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome question, Kimberly. So it is very easy, I think, to overthink this one. And it's still it's still a really good question. And there are things to keep in mind.

So most supplements, I mean, you really want to look at ingredients and make sure they don't have, you know, things in them like maltodextrin, which is a form of sugar and, you know, oils and toxins and things like that. So you want to get really clean, pure supplements. But as far as like when to take it, the way I look at it is, if it's like a food based supplement, I tend to take it with food. So like, if it's magnesium, I'm like, I take that with my food because it like adds the nutrition, I actually take the vitamin, I take vitamin D with, because that's something we would be getting, well, we get that from the sun, but we also can get it from food. I actually, because it's like fat soluble, take it with my food, even though I then I take it at night and vitamin D they'll often say to take during the day because of its effects on circadian rhythm. But like spirulina that I consider a supplement I take with my food. So food related nutrients, you can take, you know, with your food. Things like mycelia peptase, which is great to support the fast, break down problematic proteins in your body, clear your allergies, take that in the fasted state, preferably right when you wake up. Something that's really going to help you with blood sugar control like berberine, you're going to want to take that definitely before meals to help with the blood sugar response of the meal. When it comes to things like just neurotropics or, you know, like adaptogens to not ever think it, I would just look at the bottle. Like when does the bottle say to take it and take it accordingly? I interviewed, so Jay Campbell, I had him on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. He's also going to be coming on this show as well. He's really big with peptides. He does make a really strong case in his book, one of his books, that if you really want the full beneficial effect of a supplement, that it should be taken not with other things, which I know is hard when we're taking like a million things. But if you're taking something specifically for like fat burning or like peptide related like that, isolating it is going to probably give you a more potent effect. But again, it's really hard to do that when you're taking lots of things. But so like my daily supplement routine, the ones I think are really important about timing are like seropeptase in a fasted state, really important. Burberry, making sure that it's before meals, although I also take it in the morning to the morning, the afternoon when I get up to support the fasted state. Obviously, things like digestive enzymes and HCL, anything that's food support will be taken with your meals. Circadian rhythm related things like melatonin or magnesium, my magnesium nightcap, which crosses the blood-brain barrier you can take in the evening to support your sleep.

Melanie Avalon
So really, yes, don't overthink it. Look at the supplement and ask yourself what is this supporting? Is this supporting something about the food and digestion? Then take it with the meal.

Is it supporting my sleep? Take it in the evening.

Does it need to be on an empty stomach like your thyroid medication or seropeptase on an empty stomach?

I'm trying to think there's any other like big blanket categories of things. I like the way she started though, which is don't overthink it. You can always just look at the bottle.

What do you think, Burry?

Barry Conrad
When it comes to supplements or medication for that matter as well, I just follow the bottle. Like, I'm not going to overthink that at all when it comes to that.

I think if it's something that you're taking by choice, which is not like a medication that's more of a supplement, then yeah, like Mel said, food-related, take it with food. If it's not relevant to that, I do like the idea of what you said. What was the guest that you mentioned before, Mel? The guy that talked about? Jay Campbell. Yeah, I love the idea and I really agree taking... To me it makes sense that isolating those kinds of supplements would be more potent. You don't think? Because I think that makes sense to me.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and like things like, if you're taking some sort of like fat burning supporting compound, which there are quite a few different supplements out there, you might want to, you know, take them by themselves. Also, if you're evaluating how something makes you feel, like nicotine, for example, you probably want to take it for the first time when you put it on like not with other things so you can see, you know how it's making you feel.

I feel good because I just I was curious and I put in chat GPT, like when to take supplements and I feel like I did cover because I was like, I feel like I'm making this specific to me, but I think those are the pretty big categories, like some things I left out. So B vitamins. So those are going to be energizing. That's something to keep in mind.

Like is this energizing? If so you want to take it earlier. So B vitamins might be energizing.

Barry Conrad
melatonin, take it at night, you know?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, something like zinc that going back to like taking with food people sometimes sometimes get nausea from that So you would want to take that with food other ones at night might be like L theanine CBD or I left that out CBD Gaba, you know, those are gonna help with sleep probiotics.

I would probiotics. I would take with food unless it says Not to so like seed probiotic, which I adore It's one of my favorite probiotics of all time that you're gonna take on an empty stomach is how they say to take it I will give you a link for that by the way you

Barry Conrad
Yeah, and even things like, I guess, fish oil or spirulina, like, you know, you can clearly also see the food related, so probably take them in my eating window, you know?

Melanie Avalon
The fish oil one is really interesting and really quickly so for seed which is my favorite probiotic seed.com slash if podcast with the code 25 if podcast will get you 25% off.

The fish oil is so interesting because historically I always thought taking it with food and that's what chat GPT is saying and still I've read some of the people and I'm running together in my head who said what but some books that I read they say fish oil like take it in the fasted state and then some say only take it with food so fish oil I'm really on the fence I personally would take it with food though.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, but it is a really good question, and actually it seems simple, but I'm glad that she asked that. So thanks for your question.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, awesome, awesome. Shall we break our proverbial fast?

Barry Conrad
I think we should do it. I'm so excited about this restaurant.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, Barry, I am so excited. What restaurant do you have for us today?

Barry Conrad
Okay, so I have chosen a restaurant that I think you're going to love. It's called Carbon, I think it's pronounced that way, and it's based in New York City.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I know you gotta start and you can go to these places.

Barry Conrad
Exactly. So, this place, why it's special, it's got a retro chic revival of mid-century Italian-American dining situation from a major food group, and it was opened in Greenwich Village in 2013.

It's got ala card gems like Spicer, Rigatoni, vodka, and veal parmesan. Each plate rendered with theatrical polish, which I think you'd like, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
with what? Theactrical?

Barry Conrad
Theatrical polish like theatrical flair.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, oh, okay. Oh, okay. I thought you were saying like, like a literal substance that was called theatrical polish. I was like, what is theatrical polish? I want it, but yeah.

Barry Conrad
Nearly every dish is table side plated, which I actually love that idea, which marries nostalgia with modern hospitality and one of the things you're going to love is the wine list is extensive and Italian selection.

Melanie Avalon
Table-side all of them table-side plated almost that's cool

Barry Conrad
Yeah, and the vibe which haven't been yet but apparently it's like a dark leather booth with emerald bank bank it's set against glossy white tablecloth tops perfect for indulgent date nights or lively group dinner so sounds like my kind of place have you seen a looking at it.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I'm at the I'm at the website. The yeah, the vibe is totally oh Locations they have another location.

Oh, New York, Miami, Dallas, Las Vegas, Hong Kong, Doha, Ria Coming soon to Dubai and London. I want to go

Barry Conrad
Well, when you come to New York, this is great because we could do this and I can come to the ones in Atlanta. I know. Let's go to the dinner menu and see what we got there.

Melanie Avalon
We get to use Italian words for the category so we don't have to fight over, like, entree appetizer-ness.

Barry Conrad
The mains, entree, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Okay so antipasti.

Barry Conrad
Antipasti, anything they're grabbing, catching your eye.

Melanie Avalon
actually yes I want the okay so actually I want two things I want the prosciutto and melon will you eat the melon

Barry Conrad
Yeah, definitely.

Melanie Avalon
And then I want to taste a baked clam, but I don't want the whole thing.

Barry Conrad
I knew you were going to say that.

Melanie Avalon
I've never had, I don't think I've had clamps, which is, I think we've talked about this.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, we have. I'm getting the deja vu, but also I can't remember why you said no.

Melanie Avalon
last week we talked about the bubble room at Sanibel and like clams are on probably every menu there of all the restaurants but growing up I didn't like fish like I didn't like fishiness and then by the time I realized it

Barry Conrad
Ah, here we go again.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, Barry does not like it when women say, say that bitch is bitchy.

Barry Conrad
It's fish, it's, it's, it's, can't taste chickadee or steaky.

Melanie Avalon
days of it fishy captures the like the negative aspects of the sea you know like the fishiness so I haven't had clams because I like didn't have fish stuff or seafood growing up and then I just never by the time I don't know by the time I was eating fish which I love I just wasn't like eating clams like they're just not they're not on the menu a lot I don't think they're on this I feel like they're gonna taste like a scallop but they're not scallops right so I don't know

Barry Conrad
It's very, very similar actually.

Melanie Avalon
Are they sweet like scallops?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, they're sweet. They're not better at all. They're really easy to eat. Really delicious. Same consistency. Really good.

Melanie Avalon
I would like to get those and hopefully I like them. And if not, you can have them.

Barry Conrad
Sounds good to me. What do you want?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, wait, wait. Oh, I miss carpaccio Ah backtrack. I don't want prosciutto anymore. I want carpaccio. I love carpaccio

Barry Conrad
I am going to go the calamari Marco. I love calamari so much. And also I'm going to go for the assorted baked clams. I just, they're delicious. They're so good.

Melanie Avalon
So I think we should get one order and I'll taste it.

Barry Conrad
I wonder how many you get.

Melanie Avalon
And then if we like it, we can get another one.

Barry Conrad
Get another one and you know and this is kind of a wild card which you won't be expecting me to say no but i'm also gonna get.

Melanie Avalon
Wait, wait, wait, can I guess? Well, there's one thing on here that would be like super wild card. Is this like super wild card?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, kind of. I've never actually ordered something like this before in all the episodes we've done.

Melanie Avalon
eggplant and zucchini. You got it. I know you so well.

Barry Conrad
You do, but the reason why I am choosing this eggplant, Mel, is this week I did an episode of banter with BC with my co-star, Kirsty Marillier, for Destiny, and it was presented in such a way that A, it didn't look like an eggplant, B, it tasted amazing. It's kind of, it was like two, imagine two rectangular type tubes on a plate, like marinated, like meaty, like not soft, like just really good, like really, really, really delicious.

At this place called Miss Pearl, it was so good, it was amazing, loved it.

Melanie Avalon
You know the problem with eggplant and zucchini, right? Like why I haven't is, wait, let me check if zucchini is. Let me pull up my app, FoodSense Guide Shameless Plug. For friends, if they're curious, if you get my FoodSense Guide, it is a comprehensive catalog of over 300 foods for 11 potentially problematic compounds.

Oh, okay, zucchini is not this. Okay, that's cool. Eggplant, though, is a nightshade.

Barry Conrad
So explain why that would be bad for me, or bad for you, I should say.

Melanie Avalon
I don't want to like add any sort of food fear. So if you're not feeling, if you're not having issues with it, just don't even think about it.

Some people though have problems with nightshades and they contain a compound called, I think it's called, let's see, I'm literally looking in my app. So the compound is called, it's the family solanacea and there's a compound in nightshades that people, if they struggle with them, they might get like an inflammatory response, arthritis, things like that. So common nightshades are, eggplant is a big one, tomatoes, potatoes, paprika, goji berries, bell peppers, sweet peppers. So if you notice that you react to those foods, you might have a problem with nightshades.

Barry Conrad
So, Mel, can I just say something that's going to be really good for me to say? Paprika, tomatoes, potatoes, what do those things have in common? Me, I love them so much and I eat them so often, like on the daily.

Melanie Avalon
and you don't react to them that you're aware of. No. Yeah, so you must be good with nightshades. Me for you. I would be curious if you stopped eating all of them if you notice anything.

Barry Conrad
That's so interesting because I think I was raised with a lot of potatoes and a lot of tomatoes. I don't know if that's an epigenetic kind of a situation or even just like a conditioning situation, but yeah, I don't have a problem with them, I guess.

Melanie Avalon
Well, that's good. So all the eggplant and zucchini for you. And I don't know how to say the word, scap, scap. We've, if we know one thing is that we butcher language on this show.

Barry Conrad
Didn't you say someone said, it's so funny trying to hear you and Barry?

Melanie Avalon
Oh yeah, they liked it. That made me happy.

Somebody in the Facebook group commented on us trying to pronounce things and I don't remember which area of the geography world we were trying to pronounce, but we did it really poorly.

Barry Conrad
We're not gonna guess it, but it was, yeah, it wasn't great.

Melanie Avalon
But she said she liked it. This is eggplant and zucchini.

Barry Conrad
I want to say, I could be wrong. Please don't come for me guys. I'm trying.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Are you going to get a super salad? I can read that. It says zupa e insalate. I don't know. It means soup and salad, right?

Barry Conrad
Yeah. I think I'm going to get... Oh, actually, I do like a good minestrone, actually.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna pass

Barry Conrad
You're like, okay, yeah. Okay, what would you like to get from the macaroni?

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I feel like now is where we enter entree territory entree slash main territory because there's macaroni so like pasta options there's pesky so the fish options oh I see what I want and the carny. Okay, and then it's like sides okay I see one of I see on this menu Barry one of my favorite meals to order at restaurants ever and I get so excited when they have it so we're in a good spot right now.

Barry Conrad
That's really good. What's catching your eye? Tell me. I want to know what it is.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, you can completely get rid of one whole category, so that helps. I don't think you know. I don't know if I've talked about this on the show.

Barry Conrad
I feel like you're going to get rid of the macaroni one.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so no pasta.

Barry Conrad
And if you haven't talked about this on the show.

Melanie Avalon
It's something from the fish department.

Barry Conrad
Okay, let me think about this.

Melanie Avalon
And I can I give you a hint. I feel like a reason I love this dish is because it makes me feel very like ancestral and it's like a whole experience and I feel very primal eating this.

Barry Conrad
Ahol, Bronzino.

Melanie Avalon
Yes.

Barry Conrad
Yes, I got it right.

Melanie Avalon
I love whole brands, you know, it's like one of my favorite things.

Barry Conrad
Describe it for me.

Melanie Avalon
So have you had branzino? I have not.

Oh my goodness. So it is, I'm pretty sure it's lower mercury. It's this delectable, delicious white fish and they normally serve it whole. So there's like the, like the whole thing is there like the head and everything. And it's, it's just like, I was going to say moist. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

Barry Conrad
Now that you know that's bad.

Melanie Avalon
Now you don't like it. Okay. It's very luscious. Is that okay? Luscious? Is that word okay?

Barry Conrad
Succulent, luscious, delicious.

Melanie Avalon
luscious, delicious, like this white meat, also still kind of lean. And you get it in the whole fish form. So you get to like, like I said, feel, feel like primal. And you know, if the, if the head is there, you can like eat the brain.

Barry Conrad
You eat the brain.

Melanie Avalon
If you want if the head is there

Barry Conrad
You're very surprising to me sometimes, Mel, because I know that you, because you listeners, you probably heard us talk about this before, like how we'd eat, you know, in front of people. And Mel was like, you want to take little bites and kind of like, she's like, I wouldn't cover my mouth, but I mean, this is like, um, this is a primal experience. You'd be using this like bones and the whole thing and eating the brain. I just can't picture it.

I'm trying to, I'm trying to picture you navigating this dish.

Melanie Avalon
I feel like I feel like we need to, yeah, we need to go to a restaurant where I can get order this because we can go here. We can go to carbon.

I like that you called it carbon. Isn't it carbon? Has an E at the end. I did say carbon, didn't I? Are they like carbon? Maybe, I don't know. Your accent kind of like changes it around. But yes, I love the whole, and I know, I know, I'm pretty sure I've talked about this. Like Barry, when you're back in New York, you can go to Whole Foods and you can get a whole branzino at Whole Foods and you can cook it.

Barry Conrad
Is Bronzino there?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'll debone it for you.

Barry Conrad
Oh my gosh, it's all happening.

Melanie Avalon
at the fish counter for free, and then you can cook it. And so it'll still be the whole brands, you know, like it'll still have the skin, the head, the eyes, I don't eat the eyes, but they'll have everything but it won't have the bones because the bones are where it gets tricky because you're like eating and then you literally impale your mouth. It's a vibe.

So that's why I feel about whole brands, you know, so I'm getting that. And I probably want some meat too. But is there a fish that you want?

Barry Conrad
Well, the way that you describe me that is pretty good, but I'm not going to get the same thing. So I reckon I'm going to go for the Lobster Fratia Volo.

I love Lobster, so I reckon I'll go for that baby and then for sure.

Melanie Avalon
What fraud Diablo is like so do we know what that means Barry and I do this show so we can get educated on Like what things mean on menus? Oh It's like it looks like a pasta

Barry Conrad
like a pasta, I'm not mad at that. I mean, I would have that.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, it has a tomato sauce berry. This is your dish. This is your dish.

Barry Conrad
It's my dish.

Melanie Avalon
This is like literally your dish though

Barry Conrad
It actually is, yeah, I definitely get that. And then what about from the Carney menu, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so this looks so good. I would like... Oh.

Barry Conrad
It's so funny. Oh, it's like a new processing. So it's like

Melanie Avalon
I was kind of craving a filet and they don't have a filet, so, oh my goodness. Wait, we should get the prime porterhouse for two. Then we can just like cover the meat section and we'll be like, good.

And a porter, wait, a porterhouse has a filet. What am I thinking? Duh. The strip and a filet. So, but how are we going to get it cooked?

Barry Conrad
See, this is where we might be at odds because you're going to want to blue, blue, blue, blue, and I'm going to want to maybe like medium rare.

Melanie Avalon
medium rare. What if we what if we do like rare plus, which is like in between rare and medium rare.

Barry Conrad
I've never heard that before. Okay, we can do rare plus.

Melanie Avalon
If you feel more comfortable with medium rare, we can do medium rare. That's fine.

Barry Conrad
I can definitely do rare plus for sure, but then I also feel like if we're doing that, I would love to get a different meat as well as a second option in addition like a chicken or a veal situation.

Melanie Avalon
It's a real parmesan.

Barry Conrad
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
They have a pork chop and peppers, peppers.

Barry Conrad
Oh my God, you know, this place looks really good. I'm

Melanie Avalon
Realizing Italy is definition of nightshades, that's what I'm realizing. It's like peppers, tomato, eggplant.

And to clarify, black pepper is not a nightshade, just pepper peppers, like, you know, peppers.

Barry Conrad
I know what you're saying. You call peppers, we call it, it's not called peppers in Australia, capsicum. We call it capsicum.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, oh, you call like pepper spice capsicum?

Barry Conrad
I think that, is pork chop and peppers, is peppers meant to be like... I'm guessing it's pe-

Melanie Avalon
pepper. So like, okay, so pepper, like pepper singular is like spice. But if it says peppers, that's going to be like, you know, peppers.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, like capsicum.

Melanie Avalon
Oh wait. So capsicum is a pepper pepper. What? I'm like so confused. Okay. So capsicum for you guys is the full thing. Like not the spice. The full thing. Okay. That's helpful.

What is a ribeye Diana? I thought it, I did think I thought it was Diane. They call it Diana, but it's really good. Steak. Diane is pan fried beef steak with a sauce made from the pan juices.

Barry Conrad
Delicious. That looks good.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so what do we settle on to the Porterhouse rare plus, which is like really annoying to the servers. I'm so sorry in advance and

Barry Conrad
And then we can get the, cause I feel like the robot and Diana, Diana is this, it's still a steak steak. So I feel like we're not going to do the papers.

Cause that's like a nightshade, right? So we're going to do, let's do the veal parmesan.

Melanie Avalon
You can get that it's on the side and this is for you because I got well, I've got the brands, you know We've got the lobster. Oh my goodness

Barry Conrad
we got so much. Can you imagine our table? When we actually finally eat, it's going to be so much food.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's going to be like, we know we probably should do, we probably should just go to somewhere like Texas State Brazil, you know, where you just eat the meat, you know what I'm talking about? Like the Brazilian state houses.

Barry Conrad
Yes, do they have that? Is that a big thing in the states? Because I know it is here.

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. Yeah, Fogo de Ciao, Texas-Dade, Brazil are the two like big chains that do it, but there's a lot of, you know, restaurants that do it.

Just like, actually, I don't know if there's a lot, but it actually, it's like a thing a la carte as well. And I haven't been forever and I kind of want to go to one.

Barry Conrad
I think that would solve our problem of animal protein, like of not having enough.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, let me get this. Okay, do we want a side?

Barry Conrad
Yes. Well, for me, I diff, I would love some potatoes. And then I think that you don't like, do you like broccoli or not? Really?

Melanie Avalon
I mean, I yes, it's spicy, though. And I mean, I mean, if it's, you know, I like it. As my mom would say, I like it, it doesn't like me as much. My mom says that all the time.

Barry Conrad
Like about food, I guess.

Melanie Avalon
Like, I love this, or I like this, it doesn't like me.

Barry Conrad
That's funny. Probably just the potatoes. I reckon that's it. What about you?

Melanie Avalon
You know, I'll pass, we'll eat more meat.

Barry Conrad
Dessert looks good. This place looks so good. I love it What's catching your eye

Melanie Avalon
I'm going to get, so for my dessert, if I liked the clams, you know, we had at the beginning, I'll get another order of clams. I'll probably, though, get like carpaccio or something for dessert.

Barry Conrad
That sounds good.

Melanie Avalon
or like salmon or Dover. No, no, it's bicata, nevermind. Salmon or I will revisit whatever I really liked from before.

Barry Conrad
Mm-hmm. I will definitely get the chocolate raspberry cake as well as the tiramisu.

Melanie Avalon
That's what I was going to guess. I was like, he's either going to, yep, yep, yep, yep. If I were to get one and like have it, but not have it, it would be the carrot cake.

Barry Conrad
Really?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, do you like carrot cake?

Barry Conrad
I do like carrot cake. I do actually. I would definitely have that.

You know, we played a game last episode about, you know, would that, is it eating window worthy? Carrot cake is eating window worthy for me. I would definitely have that.

Melanie Avalon
but you didn't order it as your two things. So it's not as worthy as chocolate raspberry cake and tiramisu. Which tiramisu I do not like. This is where we diverge. I can't do like the coffee vibe.

Barry Conrad
That's so interesting because you like coffee.

Melanie Avalon
Well, I mean, yes, not in dessert, though.

Barry Conrad
Not to eat it, you don't want to eat your coffee, you want to drink it.

Melanie Avalon
I have never like so like whenever I see like a dessert or any food that has coffee integrated into it no interest it's like conflicting because coffee is like a drink that you have in the morning and like wake up and conquer the day you don't want it in a like a food.

Barry Conrad
That's like an affogato. We've talked about this as well.

Do you remember what that is? No. It's like a affogato. It's like picture like a glass with like a shot of chocolate liqueur over like ice cream. It's really delicious. It's delicious.

Melanie Avalon
No. How about the drinks? I bet they have really good wine here.

Barry Conrad
So I've clicked on the drinks part, not the wine part, and then there's actually wine and cocktails on that list.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, perfect. Okay.

Barry Conrad
I like the font of this place too, it looks, it really gives off a vibe, like this place looks really good.

Melanie Avalon
I know you know what I'm thinking right now, because we're currently trying to finish our design for my glow coffee and I really like the font. I think this might be a good font for our bags.

Barry Conrad
That's good. Is anything, there's a few drinks there.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so basically their list is so expansive that I feel very confident I can find something. It's going to require, I'm going to have to like research and look them up, see if they're organic, see if they're low alcohol, but I know I can find something definitely by the bottle.

Barry Conrad
Do you know what? I feel like we should do considering what we've just ordered, like thinking about the food options you've just had.

We should definitely get a bottle of white and a bottle of red, and then I'm going to get a cocktail as well.

Melanie Avalon
Perfect.

Barry Conrad
Do you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I do. So when we go, I will do a lot of research and I will find the perfect bottles that are, are you good with like the organic low alcohol situation with the wines?

Barry Conrad
I'm sure that I'll be good with consuming it, but if I'm being really honest, I have not actively sought out. Let me find out the best. I try to always get the most high quality one, but I'm definitely not as versed as you in the organic go-to's.

Melanie Avalon
So hear me out. I really feel like the organic wines are the most high quality because they are doing the, they're like creating wine the way it's supposed to be created, like from the earth, all natural, exposed to the elements, not spraying it with all these chemical compounds.

So like, it's kind of interesting to me that there are so many wines that are really high priced and yet they do these modern, you know, pesticide situations that just like don't, I don't know, I think if you want like high quality, organic, biodynamic is the way to go, and then preferably lower alcohol if you want to, like, if you're like me.

Barry Conrad
Select what, like 10% or something? Is that?

Melanie Avalon
So I like to cap it at 12.5%.

Barry Conrad
So it's still, yeah, okay.

Melanie Avalon
Ideally, it would be 11.5. Ideally, it would be like in the 11s, 11s or 12s.

Barry Conrad
Interesting, so it's pretty yeah, okay, all right

Melanie Avalon
So like the whole low alcohol wine is not, I'm not talking about like de-alkalized like soup. I'm talking just like not 14% basically or 15%.

Okay. We should get a Pinot Grigio white. That's what we should get. Yeah, definitely. So we will get an organic Pinot Grigio and then we'll find a red and then what will you get for your cocktail?

Barry Conrad
I think because we're at this, I usually like to get a margarita, but I think because in the theme of being in at Cabo and I'm going to get a Manhattan and I have been having a few more of those.

Melanie Avalon
Perfect. Excellent, fine. I love the vibe and you should go and let me know how it is. Okay.

Well, this was so, so amazing. Friends, listeners, we hope you enjoyed traveling with us today. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com slash episode 441. They will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are ifpodcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad. Yeah, I think that's all the things. Anything else from you, Barry?

Barry Conrad
No, thank you so much again for tuning in. We really appreciate you. Have an amazing week, and we'll see you next time.

Melanie Avalon
I will talk to you next week.

Barry Conrad
Talk to you next week. Bye.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Sep 22

#440 – Fasting And Biological Age Reduction, DEXA Scans, Measuring Body Fat Percentage, BMI Problems, DNA Tests For What To Eat, CrossFit, And More!

⁠Episode 412 with Special Guest Dr. Matt Dawson

Welcome to Episode 440 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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⁠⁠STUDIES:

Fasting-mimicking diet causes hepatic and blood markers changes indicating reduced biological age and disease risk

⁠⁠If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 440 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX and author of What, When, Wine, Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine, and I'm joined by my co-host, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iofpodcast.com or by going to iofpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you.

Please remember the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine. If it's that time and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 440 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today in Australia?

Barry Conrad
I'm good. Hey, Mala. Hi, listeners. Hope you're all doing great.

I am doing well. It's a Sunday morning here in Melbourne, Australia. It's kind of gray, kind of cold, but it's not too bad. Nothing to complain about here. How about you?

Melanie Avalon
Sunday morning in the park. I think it was the 4th of July. Is that the song?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, actually, yeah. Do you want to give us a little?

Melanie Avalon
or Sunday in the park, I knew you were going to say that. I knew you were going to be like, so I purposely Sunday in the park with George then.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Awesome. Yay. Is this, so it's kind of fun to be podcasting like back in the old days with you over there, me here.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's so funny. Just before we jumped in on the podcast properly, listeners, we were talking about how I was in New York last time we recorded.

So now I'm back in Australia again. So it's like back and forth. But after this stint, after this work trip, I'll be back home, my new home, New York. So we can be in the same time zone.

Melanie Avalon
And for listeners, I did ask Barry if going to New York felt like he was going home and he said no, you know, you said that like going you felt like you were traveling to Australia.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it feels it's so strange how that can happen. But now coming back here feels like a work trip, which is not bad. It's just different.

Now I'm like, when I go home, a.k.a. NYC, that's a good feeling. I like that.

Melanie Avalon
Well, in honor of you being in Australia and in honor of food, since this is the intermittent fasting podcast, can I rapid fire this article to you? Did I show you the title? I know I saved it for the show, but did I show you the title or do you know what this what it is? It's 11 Australian sweet treats that need to be on your radar. I want to know if this is accurate.

Barry Conrad
Okay, I'm down. I like games. Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so you're gonna rate each one like, does this need to be on our radar? So like, yes or no. And also, what is it? Okay, ready? Number one, Lamingtons.

Barry Conrad
Yes it's kind of living since it's kind of like picture like a square little mini cake with coconut flakes on it it's pretty good.

Melanie Avalon
Literally the picture I'm looking at you describe that really well. You're like a hesitant. Yes

Barry Conrad
Yeah it's like if it's in front of me and it's like my treat day i'll have it but it's not like i'm not gonna go to my way to get it you know.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so the question I guess is like, is this worthy of your eating window tree day?

Barry Conrad
This is not worthy of my eating window, nah.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, number two. Oh, I know this one. Fairy bread. Yeah. We don't have that here.

Barry Conrad
Really?

Melanie Avalon
No, because it's like so cool. It comes up on things I look at. It's like that cool. But we don't we don't do this. Do you just like to kids like to do kids like eat this?

Barry Conrad
It's like a kid's birthday party situation. Also, Mel, I'm surprised that you don't know this because to me, as soon as you said fairy bread, it made me think of fun, fitty cake.

Is it not kind of the same? No.

Melanie Avalon
It's like a fun fatty cake wannabe because it's literally just for listeners white bread butter and hundreds and thousands oh that's the name of it the australian name for sprinkles what you call you call sprinkles hundreds and thousands.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, don't you? Yeah, of course. That's the only way to call it.

Melanie Avalon
No, I've never heard that in my life.

Barry Conrad
That's so straight. No, that's weird. You guys are saying it the wrong way.

Melanie Avalon
No, hundreds and thousands. It's very like they need to make a choice. Is it hundreds or thousands? It's end.

It can't be. Here's the thing. If it's hundreds, it's not thousands. But if it's thousands, it's hundreds. Think about that for a second.

Barry Conrad
This is not like the one meal a day debate, the hundreds of thousands debate. We're not doing that.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so fairy red. Eating window worthy?

Barry Conrad
Still a no. I need something. I need something else. What else you got?

Melanie Avalon
Okay, next Pavlova.

Barry Conrad
Yes. Okay, Pavlova. Yeah. I don't know what this is. So it's basically, it's hard to describe this, but it's made with a lot of egg whites. It's sort of like a, you know what a meringue is?

Melanie Avalon
But yeah, that's what this says it is.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, picture like a giant meringue, but also there's a couple layers maybe, put them on top of each other, and then you kind of top it with cream, strawberries.

Melanie Avalon
Does it have a marshmallow-like center? Yes. Oh, this looks good.

Barry Conrad
I know I can make a pretty good one too. I'll have to show you a photo. Yeah, it's delicious and

Melanie Avalon
Okay, wait, next, and Zach Biscuits.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. Anzac biscuits are pretty good. They're pretty, they're an Australian staple.

You know, if you go oatmeal cookies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty good. Chocolate crackles. I don't think I've tried that. I don't know. That's definitely enough for me.

Melanie Avalon
It's a, it's a childhood birthday party thing. It's like, looks like Rice Krispies with chocolate, hmm? Caramel slice.

Barry Conrad
Oh, yeah. Hell yeah. Caramel slices are the best ever. They're so good.

It's self-explanatory. It's like a picture, like a brownie type consistency, like a square that you get in a bakery, but this is like, has a caramel, like crystallized topping. It's so good.

Melanie Avalon
It looks really good. They say it can be found in almost every bakery in Australia.

Barry Conrad
That's 100% correct, pretty much.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, okay, we're almost there. Oh, this one we've talked about before, Tim Tams.

Barry Conrad
Oh, Melanie, you have to try these, it'll change your life, it's so good. I'm not going to try it.

Melanie Avalon
This is really good. You can only hang out, you can have it.

Barry Conrad
Melanie look at your instagram real quick your messages as a sent you a pavlova that i made.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Hold on. This is so exciting.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, from the top, it looks really good. It's really good.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, so does it always have the same type of fruit or can you do like whatever fruit you're feeling?

Barry Conrad
You can have like plain, you could have whatever fruit you're feeling, you could put blueberries on there.

Melanie Avalon
This was your first attempt. Yeah. Okay.

Barry Conrad
But Tim Tams, real quick on the Tim Tams Mel, like when you get Tim Tams, there's a thing, it's like, it's called like the Tim Tams Slam, so this is the scene.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I'm literally that's what it says. It says you can participate in Tim Tam slam. What is Tim Tam slam?

Barry Conrad
You basically, you can get your hot chocolate or whatnot, and you put the Tim Tam into the hot chocolate vertically, and then you suck out the hot chocolate through it like a straw and it melts. The Tim Tam melts.

It's so good.

Melanie Avalon
Uh, I think you've told me about this. Yeah, that sounds complicated. It's not.

Barry Conrad
It's not complicated. It's a straw. Actually, you know what, we need to do this and film it and you do it.

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. I'll film it. I'll film it. I'll film you Okay, how about ice bobo

Barry Conrad
I don't know what's that.

Melanie Avalon
The Arnett's Biscuit Company makes ice phobos, golden biscuit with icing, jam, and coconut. You guys like your coconut.

Barry Conrad
And it's a really good brand, so I would have that because they're pretty reliable with their taste palette. It's really good.

Melanie Avalon
Neenish Tarte.

Barry Conrad
Nah.

Melanie Avalon
Vanilla Slice

Barry Conrad
Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Melanie Avalon
firm vanilla custard sandwiched between two pieces of puff pastry. This looks this looks good. Actually, so thus far, this looks the most alluring to me. Really? Why? Yeah, I love vanilla.

Barry Conrad
Oh, you actually do. I do know that.

Melanie Avalon
It looks like cake. Does it have cake in it? It looks cakey.

Barry Conrad
It has a cake-like consistency.

Melanie Avalon
I like custard. I like cake. I like white. Let's see. Last one. Hedgehog slice.

Barry Conrad
I haven't tried the hedgehog slice.

Melanie Avalon
What a bummer to end on that. It says that it's a prime Aussie snack.

This no baked dessert appeared on the Australian culinary landscape in the 1930s. Where have you been very popularized in the 1970s rumors that it was inspired by 1920s German dessert, but it may have been from England. This is all over the place.

Barry Conrad
I've never seen these in a bakery.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so we're fact checking you, Tasting Table.

Barry Conrad
I always see vanilla slice, I always see caramel slice, and at nice sort of bakeries, there'll be like a pebble of cake in the little cabinet as well. So those are my top three as well.

So and Tim Tams, of course, you can buy that at the store.

Melanie Avalon
Well, this was epic. I love that.

It's interesting, you know, yeah, none of those. The only one I'd heard of was Tim Tams, I think, because you and I had talked about before, and then fairy bread, because like I said, it comes up on, you know, I just have a love for like rainbow desserts. So it comes up that way. But yeah, oh, I was clarifying why it's not as good as funfetti is it's just bread, and you're hundreds and thousands and and butter, right? But funfetti is like cake with sprinkles on the inside and

Barry Conrad
I still feel like this is an elusive, it's like a mythical thing that just can't, I've never seen funfetti cake in the, in the, in the wild ever, ever.

Melanie Avalon
This is wild to me. You're in New York now, not right now, but you will be. You'll see it, you'll see it.

You could go, you could buy it at the store. Like a, you could Pillsbury, like you could buy a mix, you can make it. Oh please, can you do that? What? Like buy a Pillsbury, funfetti cake mix and make it. They have a gluten-free one too.

Barry Conrad
you know i'm gonna write this down because that's actually an experiment of the willing to participate in to see if it's fun.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, you could, oh my goodness, get both. Oh, see if it's fun and you get the gluten-free and the normal and you could compare and see if the gluten-free is just as good as the normal.

I will like eagerly watch this, like whatever social media content you create from this.

Barry Conrad
Tillsbury mix by it. Okay, cool, I'll put that down as a note.

Melanie Avalon
Perfect. Okay, well, I've been saving that article for like months. So thank you for entertaining me

Barry Conrad
Well, thank you for doing it. Your reaction was so funny at the end, you're like, hedgehog slice. I'm like, I've never had that. Oh, that was disappointing.

Melanie Avalon
And then they go on to say how it comes from like all these other countries. So yeah, poor choice on their part. Well, should we jump into some fasting things? Do you, do you have a study for us?

Barry Conrad
I do have a study for us and the study that I'm bringing today is called fasting-like diet lowers risk factors for disease, reduces biological age in humans, and this is published in Nature Communications in February 2024 by Professor Volta Longo's group.

Melanie Avalon
Valtter Longo represents, he's been on this show, and I think actually I just, God we're talking about this, he just confirmed to come back on either this show or my other show. Awesome, how good is that?

Okay, so this one is about the biological age effects of fasting, a fasting mimicking diet maybe?

Barry Conrad
Yes, it lowers the risk for disease and reduces biological age, which is pretty good, and a topic that we both like. They enrolled just under 100 men and women aged between 18 to 70, and they're all carrying at least one metabolic risk marker.

Everything from elevated fasting glucose to borderline fatty liver rather than full water fasting situation, the participants in the intervention followed a five-day quote-unquote fasting mimicking diet, FMD, once per month for three to four consecutive months. Each FMD cycle provided about 800 to 1,100 calories per day in the form of plant-based soups, bars, and supplements rich in unsaturated fats and low in protein and carbohydrates. Outside of those days, those five days, volunteers ate their regular diet, with half of them assigned to the FMD protocol and the other half maintaining either the usual eating pattern or more of a Mediterranean-style diet. What I find super interesting about this is how – and this is one of the reasons why I love fasting – how seamlessly this fits into a busy life. You don't have to think about every meal or count calories daily. Just commit to a short five-day metabolic tune-up each month. Judging by the 80% adherence rate for this, most of the people found it surprisingly doable, not surprising to us. Complaints were pretty minor, so occasional headaches were fatigued during the fasting days, especially for newer participants. Notice here is adverse events, which really speaks volumes about its practicality. Results-wise, the first up was the metabolic health. The FMD group saw a significant drop in incidence resistance measured by the HOMA and reflected in an average of 0.3 percentage point decrease in HPA1c. So, to put that in perspective for listeners,

Melanie Avalon
That's a lot.

Barry Conrad
It's crazy, so you normally chalk that up, that kind of improvement to months of discipline diet and exercise, and this just emerged after just a handful of five day cycles, which is crazy. They also take a little fat, so non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. It's a silent epidemic, especially in people carrying extra metabolic risks, so MRI quantification showed a 20 to 30% reduction in hepatic steotosis. So among those FMD participants, that was that 20 to 30% reduction. So while the control groups liver fat remains stubbornly unchanged, that's not just like a cosmetic win, it's lowering the risk of progression to type 2 diabetes over time, which is another win.

So there's also the immune system situation. So by analyzing blood cell subpopulations, the researchers observed a massive increase in lymphoid to mellow cell ratio, which is a hallmark of a more youthful immune profile. So essentially FMD pulses the body's autophagy and stem cell renewal pathways. So basically our body clears out all immune cells and then replaces them with fresh recruits, which is exactly what you want if you're gearing up for, like here in Australia, for example, flu season or dealing with chronic stress, which so many people experience.

But the true headline stealer for me email was the epigenetic clock analysis. So using the Levens DNA methylation algorithm, the team showed that the FMD group's biological age fell by an average of 2.5 years. So almost like hitting the rewind button on your cellular calendar, which is pretty crazy. So while the control group saw just a minimal change. So that kind of age reversal is kind of unheard of in like diet studies alone and like suggests like just like profound effects on long term health span.

So for anyone out there like juggling, you know, like demands of work or even like touring, for example, like what I'm doing right now, this approach could offer like a really significant trade off five days a month of modest calorie restriction in a prepackaged, easy to follow format in exchange for sharper metabolism, clearer liver, rejuvenated immunity and a younger epigenetic profile, you know, and yeah, there you have it. It's like it's a human centric low tech blueprint for turning back the clock, boosting resilience and rewind your metabolism all without changing your entire lifestyle. Every single day. And that's the power of eating like medicine, you know, it's like so cheers to feeling younger and healthier. I reckon one month at a time. Mel, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Well, this is a great find. And I'm excited because I'm looking at this study. So the original study was published in Nature Communications, and it's called Fasting Mimicaine Diet Causes Hepatic and Blood Markers Changes, indicating reduced biological age and disease risk.

And I'm excited because I also see on this study Morgan Levine, who I've had on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, and she actually developed a pretty cool algorithm for determining biological age and to just super clarify for listeners. So biological age is this concept that you can measure your true age of your cells and your body rather than your chronological age. So yeah, super cool study that you found, super cool that the fasting mimicking diet, you know, had that intense of an effect. And I'm excited because with the fasting mimicking diet specifically, the commercial version is called Prolon. And it's super cool because it provides a way for people to just like Barry mentioned, when he was reading some of the information about the study, they have these pre packaged kits. So you can just implement this fasting mimicking diet approach, which is basically eating super low calorie, it's all plant based. And you do it for I think, yeah, five days is the cycle. They recently released a new version made with organic ingredients. It's more like whole foods base more sustainable. So I'm really excited about that.

So if listeners want to try that and potentially reduce their biological age and potentially experience the other effects that Barry was talking about, they can go to prolonlife.com slash if podcast. So that's p r o l o n l i f e.com slash if podcast, that will get you 15% off with the code I have podcast. And you also get a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their five day nutrition program, if you do that as well. So I think this is cool. I really appreciate the work of Dr. Longo when he's doing with fasting. And I understand that like with Prolon, its intention is to mimic. I mean, that's why mimic mimic is in the word. But its intention is to mimic doing a longer fast rather than like the daily intermittent fasting that we talk about a lot on this show. But it's really cool to see that people can get such really dramatic effects from not that much time investment.

I mean, like you were saying Barry, the HP and C reduction, that wouldn't only take like a 0.3% is a big, big difference there. And then the liver fat and you know, all these other things. So very cool. And the 2.5 it says the 2.5 years was independent of weight loss. So just due to the weight loss. But what they're saying here is people experience that reduced biological age, and it didn't matter, you know, how much weight they lost. So that's cool.

Barry Conrad
So cool.

Melanie Avalon
Very cool. Good find. Well, thank you so much for finding that. Yay for younger biological ages. Shall we jump into some listener questions?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it and the first one we have this week is from Lorena and Lorena on Facebook she asks, can I get my bone density and my percentage of body fat checked without an MD? And a question about those DNA tests, is there one that will tell me whether I would do better on low fat or low carb and that will tell me if I would do better in a cold climate or hot climate?

Melanie, what do you think?

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, Lorena, thank you so much for your question. So this is perfect timing.

I have so many thoughts here about so many things. First of all, and Barry, did I tell you about the Sprint app that I tried?

Barry Conrad
I don't think you did. Tell me. When did you try it? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
because Lauren is asking about getting your bone density checked and your body fat percentage. Few things here. So bone density, yes, you can get a DEXA scan without an MD. Basically, just Google DEXA scan near me and you should be able to find places near you, hopefully, where you can just purchase a DEXA scan a la carte. That is totally doable.

And then a DEXA scan, it measures your bone density and it also shows your body composition. So your percent of muscle, your percent of fat. So I actually interviewed last week this incredible human being, his name was Jason Moore. And he's developed a lot of technology that has been used in different health related apps. He basically creates AI health technology. Now the way it's manifested is this thing called the Sprint app. And it is, it blew my mind Barry, I think you would absolutely love it. So you download the app and then it uses your phone's camera and you just take two pictures. So one is standing forward towards your phone. It walks you through how to do it. You set your phone on the ground and then you take the picture with your hands up and then you turn and you take one from the side. And it gives you an extremely nuanced report of your body composition comparable to a DEXA scan. So it's so cool. It shows you your exact lean mass percentage, your exact fat mass percentage, your muscle mass percentage. And it's really cool because you can basically be like updating this and testing it all the time. So you don't have to go into a DEXA scan, pay a lot of money. You can just do it from the comfort of your home. And then the app uses a lot of AI to walk you through how to make changes. So if you want to build muscle, if you want to lose fat, like what to do, and then you can actually monitor your progress by doing the scan regularly. It's really cool. It shows also your fat distribution pattern. So whether or not you have more androids fat, which is the unhealthy visceral fat versus the gynoid fat, which is in the hips, thighs, and buttocks. And that's the quote healthy fat. So you get to see your percentage of that. You get to see where you fall and the ratio for that. So like, are you healthy or not with that ratio? I'm just going through it in real time looking at what I have. It's really cool. I will send you the information because you I think would love this so much.

Barry Conrad
I would love this. I want to try it. I wonder if I can use that only when I'm back home, back in New York, or if it's just like anywhere. Probably back in the US, I'm guessing.

Melanie Avalon
I think it's a US app, so I don't know, are you able to download like US apps?

Barry Conrad
Hmm. No, I don't think so. It might not show up. No, I'll wait till I get home.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. I really think you're going to be like a little bit obsessed. It's that cool.

So if listeners would like to check it out, they can get the app in the app store. So again, again, it's called Sprint, S-P-R-E-N. Use the code Melanie Avalon. That will get you a free trial and it will get you 50% off your first month. And so to clarify this, this does not show bone density. So a DEXA scan is also going to show bone density. But if you want to know the body composition, the fat, the muscle, the BMI, literally, this is what you want. I'm really really excited about it. So that can help Lorena. Barry, have you had DEXA scans done or do you measure your body composition?

Barry Conrad
You know what, just as you were talking about this as well, I literally not even getting looked up a place not too far from where I'm staying because I'd like to get a DEXA scan. I'm curious to see, I'm anticipating around maybe 10 to 12% body fat.

I really want to see where it's at. I'm curious.

Melanie Avalon
like what you are. I'll be curious if you get that done and then download the app when you're back in the US and see how it compares.

Because like I said, I was really, really impressed with their like they're validated to be comparable to a DEXA scan for body composition. And I think it's, again, we just know that muscle mass is so, so important. And so this is a way for people to actually see, like this is way better than something like BMI, which tells you, I mean, like calculating your BMI from your just your height and weight is not actually going to tell you your actual, you know, body fat, or muscle, it's just going to tell you your BMI, which, I don't know, I feel like it's not that helpful.

Barry Conrad
I don't think it's awful at all. And I think a lot of the time it almost feels outdated now because someone could have a lot of muscle and weigh significantly more on the scale and then be obese.

But, you know, BMI, which is not really true and not obese. You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
Like, yeah, so to that point, so they have a body composition chart and it's four different quadrants and it'll tell you if you're in like low lean mass but not obese, sarcopenic obesity, so obese and low lean mass obese, so high muscle and high fat or high lean mass. So yeah, basically there's four different quadrant options here that are just not reflected in BMI.

Like, BMI is going to tell you one number. It's not going to tell you any of those four things I just said.

Barry Conrad
It sounds really really good. I actually can't wait to try this now.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, it is so, so cool. So that's the DEXA answer.

And then for Lorena's question about the genetic testing, so also good timing because I recently have tried quite a few new genetic tests. So one that I know for sure shows about like the carb fat, macronutrient, like what diet to follow is wild health. So they give you a really, really cool personalized report. And like shows under diet and nutrition, my genetics related to diet and nutrition and it shows me that I, let's see, so like what fat intolerant genes do I have? What carb intolerant genes do I have? What saturated fat intolerant genes do I have? From that they show you what, like what percentage you should be eating. So like it's recommended macros for me are actually well 40% carbs, 35% fat, 25% protein. So kind of like a balanced diet. I clearly don't really follow that. Here are the comments it makes. It says for me, I appear to tolerate saturated fat well and may consume it as desired. I tolerate carbs well and may consume complex carbs as desired. I tolerate fat well and may consume fat as desired. I guess that's why it's recommending kind of like a balanced approach because apparently I tolerate the things. But then I do have, I have a risk associated with, oh, with BCAA concentrations. Really? Yeah. It says a polymorphism that people with this often have higher BCAA levels and thus have less weight loss with high fat, calorie restricted diets. That's interesting. And then I have some risks associated with insulin resistance and diabetes in response to a diet high in fat. But it, oh, so that's actually, so that's where it gets complicated because like, if you look at the risks, like some will be good for fat, but then some are risky for fat. So what I like about wild health is they do, they really like go through and break it down and tell it to you in words that you can understand like what you should actually be doing. Let me see if it does cold tolerance. So they, they have a lot about exercise and recovery recommendations. They have a lot of sleep recommendations or how you tolerate caffeine, mental health recommendations. I don't see anything about hot and cold though, but I, so I do really recommend them. The link for them is wildhealth.com and the code Melanie Avalon will get you 20% off. And I actually had, I had Matt Dawson on this show. We had Matt Dawson on this show and he actually is, so he was actually on episode 412 of this show. So I will put a link to that in the show notes and he is the CEO of wild health. So that's one option for listeners. And then I recently tried a new for me testing and it's called sequencing. So they provided a really intense, like they have so many different reports and it's like pages and pages. And the reports that I have showed more about the, there's a lot for like mental health, things that affect your mental health, how your body tolerates medications related to that.

Melanie Avalon
It shows a lot of your risk factors for different diseases. So things like, I mean, everything from cancer to diabetes, metabolic health, liver disease, all the things. And I was really happy to see that I actually didn't have that many like high risk things. I actually did have a risk for lung scarring, which was interesting, especially because my mom. Really? Yeah, my mom's been struggling with that recently. So I thought it was really interesting that that came up as something on my genetic report and she's been experiencing that. And then I was super high risk for arthritis and osteopenia. And that really runs my family as well. So that was interesting.

But like I said, the reports I got, they focused on the type of exercise to do. So they do have a metabolic health report, but it's more so about your propensity towards different metabolic type diseases. I did not have one about which carbs are fat to eat. But either way, I thought it was really, really fascinating and really helpful. And so the code for that, if listeners would like to get that, they can go to melanieavalon.com slash sequencing. And that link will directly give you 20% off. And you know what, they might have a nutrition report. Maybe I just didn't download it because in my overview of it, it does say they have nutrition reports. So that's definitely a resource to look into. Just the information that it provided was overwhelmingly extensive and so helpful. So I definitely recommend them.

And then I know for sure that self-decode, if you do their platform, they definitely have reports that show you if you tolerate fat or carbs better. That's created by Joe Cohen. I've had him on my other show a few times. He's really, really cool. There's so many customized reports there. So for that, you can go to melanieavalon.com slash get self-decode and use the code melanieavalon for 10% off. But as far as the question about the heat and the cold, I haven't personally in my different DNA tests seen that yet, but I will keep my eye open for it. I'm trying a new one right now called Life DNA, but I don't have my results yet. But there's just so many, there's so many DNA things out there. Barry, have you tried any genetic reports or things like this to show you what you tolerate or what works for you?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I think we talk about this briefly on another show and I really, when I'm back home, I want to try all the things over there and just get that done and because I'm curious. I mean, I think what's really interesting about what you shared about your, the balanced profile that it gave you about the fat, the carbs and the protein is really, that's a good position to be in that you can tolerate all of them pretty well.

But the protein one made me laugh because you definitely eat more than, what was it, 20% or something?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah, I encourage people like don't take your genes as the Bible. Basically, you know, there's genetics, then there's epigenetics. So, you know, you can have a genetic tendency towards something, but the environment is so key. And we know that epigenetics, so whether or not your genes are turned on, how your genes are affected by your lifestyle, your diet, your fasting, that can radically change what happens. So I think like, for example, I think even if somebody has a genetic tendency not to tolerate a certain macronutrient, for most people, I would say, if they're eating a really healthy diet, and it's a different macronutrient composition, like you can create a really healthy type environment that maybe you're not like perfectly optimized for it. But if you're happier eating that way, I wouldn't, you know, feel destined by your genes.

And then on top of that, like I gave the example with the wild health report, like it literally said that I can, you know, I do well with that. And then it said that I have some genes that don't help me do well with that. And I've read on other reports that I've had that I, like I've read on other different reports that conflicting things is my point. I still really recommend these reports, because I think they really give you a really cool look into your body and what can be helpful for you just take everything with a grain of salt and it's not destiny. No pun intended. Berry conference shout out. Everybody go see Destiny in Australia.

Barry Conrad
Awesome. Also, Melanie, that's very sweet. Melanie, what you were saying about these tests, how do you typically do it? Do you have to give blood if it's like a kid? How does it work?

Melanie Avalon
That's the thing that I like about this is their saliva test.

Barry Conrad
Oh, perfect. Okay, great. So just swabs, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
If you're schooly-mish at all, every DNA test I've done has been saliva.

Barry Conrad
That's so quick. So just take a swab, mail it back, I guess, and then they, is the turnaround a lot? Is it long?

Melanie Avalon
The actual turnaround is usually really long. I have, I have yet, the good thing is I often get kind of like bumped up in the priority because I'll be like testing the brands to work with them. But yeah, in general, it can take, it can take a while for, cause they have to like run your, they have to like analyze your DNA, which I guess is not a quick process and one thing I really liked about wild, okay.

So what I liked about wild health in particular was how they made a lot of really actionable, practical things. Like I found out I should be taking like a methylated folate and that I should be doing like, I don't know, it just provided really actionable insights. And they also look at your blood work and they, they, they tell you like, Oh, here, based on your blood and your genes, this might be why this is happening. Here's what you should do. I thought that was really cool. Like the combination of the blood work and the genes for sequencing. The thing I think I liked the most was literally saying out of hundreds and hundreds of diseases, what do I have a propensity towards? And then also you can see they go through hundreds of medications and tell you if those medications might be toxic for you. And guess what Barry, guess what was one of the like only medic, quote medications. It said might not be the best for me. What? I don't consider this a medication. Do you want to guess? It's something I really enjoy. It's not alcohol.

Barry Conrad
That's not all Cole.

Melanie Avalon
No, that's not a medication.

Barry Conrad
Magnesium?

Melanie Avalon
No, it's something that they give you when you get procedures.

Barry Conrad
Ah, the gas, like the laughing gas situation.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, nitrous oxide.

Barry Conrad
Oh my gosh, that's hilarious.

Melanie Avalon
I don't care. I've survived this far.

But isn't that funny? Yeah. And then I got a little bit sad because it made some recommendations for my, what was it that it made this recommendation for? One of the conditions that had the recommendation was to not wear high heels. Really?

Barry Conrad
That's so random and specific.

Melanie Avalon
I was like, this is really sad, but okay.

Barry Conrad
Why? Why would they say? Why did they say that?

Melanie Avalon
Actually, it's on my Instagram, so let me check because I probably should get context for that. Let's see. It was for my arthritis risk.

Barry Conrad
Hmm that you wear high heels like you always wear high heels don't you for going out and stuff?

Melanie Avalon
Yep. And with that, I think it's kind of like a, I don't know, a cost benefit. You have to, okay, it says avoid wearing high heels often. Okay, that's important.

Such as multiple times a week, as this will further increase your risk of knee arthritis. But so I, you know, I go out like once a week, I wear my heels, they make me happy. I think that's anti-inflammatory. So we really got to just take everything. You got to figure out what makes you happy and what's worth the, you know, the cost benefit, in my opinion.

Barry Conrad
And what did you say? I take things to the grain of salt and like, you know, it's, yeah, it's about the bigger picture.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Do you know for you, speaking of, I know Lorena's question was about diet, but I mentioned how a lot of these genetic tests look at your, you know, type of exercise that is better for you. Like, do you know if you're more like a strength person versus a cardio person, like from your genetics? I guess you haven't done a genetic test.

So do you know what you think you would be?

Barry Conrad
I think it would be more of a strength person. I mean, I, I have like power, but I do like cardio, just not for long periods of time.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, same here. And when I got my sequencing back, I'm like very far in the power based sports training and not far not very far away from endurance.

So as I'm more likely to excel in sports requiring physical power and strength, less likely endurance.

Barry Conrad
Next thing listeners, Mal, you'll see her on her Instagram. I'm doing a crossfit class. You're doing like, you know, these competitions. That'd be so funny and not surprising if you do.

Melanie Avalon
I don't think that's in the cards for me. Have you done CrossFit?

Barry Conrad
I have done CrossFit. I floated with CrossFit for a little while actually a few years ago, but the reason why I stopped was because you're just too prone to injury. And I actually injured myself a couple of times and it's really explosive movement. And if you're not properly trained or coached, then you're going to hurt yourself. So it's like, I can't sustain this kind of training week in and week out.

So yeah, let me pivot.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I think that's smart. You have to really be super aware. I think a lot of people don't focus on injury prevention, recovery, all these things, and it's so, so important. So kudos to you for listening to your body.

Barry Conrad
Sorry to interrupt, one of the first things that I did with CrossFit was like a kettlebell. Do you know what a kettlebell is?

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. I speak I speak that

Barry Conrad
a kettlebell, maybe it was called something different in Atlanta, just like the hundreds and thousands.

Melanie Avalon
just Atlanta, it's called something different. Here we call it a kettle. I don't know, I was gonna make a joke and nothing's coming to me.

Barry Conrad
One of the first things I did for CrossFit was a kettlebell swing challenge and no one had walked me through the form so I was just like going for gold and swinging and there was like a coach standing right next to me and I was like bro you could have told me to watch my form and basically after that I was out for two weeks and my back was jacked in the worst way.

Melanie Avalon
Yikes to be. Yeah, this is why I just go to Msculpt.

Barry Conrad
Or you lay there and then it goes duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh.

Melanie Avalon
I just lay there and I let it do the right form and yeah.

Barry Conrad
Oh my gosh. And you're probably doing emails, right? At the same time, like you're doing something multitasking.

Melanie Avalon
Well, I can't, I can't, when I'm doing my arms, I can't use my hands. So I normally do work calls during it.

I schedule calls during M sculpt. And then I have to apologize at the beginning. I'm like, if you hear a weird sound in the background, that sounds like cicadas. It's yeah, it's the machine.

Barry Conrad
Is your voice going like that like to people go how can you.

Melanie Avalon
No, but there's like this, but it makes this like really loud. It literally sounds like cicadas, like sound in the background.

Do you know what cicadas are? Do they have that in Australia? What's that? Oh, man. So like that, like, okay, wait, in Australia, do they have like, when you go out in the, that night, that like, that crickety, that loud cricket, screaming cricket sound, but not cricket? Yeah. That's a cicada. There we go. Yeah. So, all right. Well, thank you, Lorena, for your question. Well, very, shall we have our proverbial raking of the fast moment?

Barry Conrad
I'm so ready for it, let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Oh, this is me. Okay. So let me pull up the restaurant.

Barry Conrad
It's been a minute, so I can't wait to actually see what you've chosen. Like if you go on Disney routes, if you go on a different route, if you go on, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, the reason I chose this restaurant is in Disney. My favorite restaurant actually, I don't know if it was my favorite, top three restaurants, it actually wasn't in the parks. It was at the Swan and Dolphin, it was at the Dolphin Hotel. And actually it was a chain restaurant, but I just had so many good memories surrounding it and it was called Shula's.

It is now gone. And as of this recording, which will be in the past, but it just reopened this week as a new restaurant.

Barry Conrad
Win. That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's like brand new. It's from a Michelin-starred chef. It actually, I think what I read was previews. So it's not actually open yet.

So I don't know if we can look at the menu. What? I might have to pick a different one.

Barry Conrad
So, but it is reopening, which is exciting. That's good, right?

Melanie Avalon
Yes, it is reopening. So actually, I have to pick a different one because it's just in previews right now, so we can't look at the menu.

Barry Conrad
That's so exciting for you because it's your one of your faves is going to be coming back.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes, yes. Okay, so I will, I'll just rapid fire pick a different one in Disney. Okay, so since I can't do that new restaurant yet, I guess I'll have to do it next time.

We're gonna go kind of close to there, not really, but Sanibel Island is where I used to go there every summer growing up and my parents have a condo there now. And there are so many incredible, cool restaurants. And one of the most fanciful vibe of a restaurant, it's actually on Capitiva Island, which is connected to Sanibel. It's called The Bubble Room. I'm sending you the link, Berry. It's so whimsical. It's like an emporium of Christmas lights and Coca-Cola memorabilia and Disney stuff and Christmas stuff. It's chaotic. If clutter bothers you, don't go here. I don't know if there are pictures online. Do you see, let's see. It's just like souvenirs everywhere and really weird things. It's a vibe.

Barry Conrad
It's very Disney-esque because I totally get why you picked this based on the aesthetic.

Melanie Avalon
It's really cool. It's just like being immersed in like Willy Wonka Wonderland-ness. And they have an incredible, you'll like the dessert list. They have tons of like cakes that are insane.

But let us look at the food. Dinner menu. Dinner menu. Okay. So I'm just getting so nostalgic. I want to go there right now. It's so cute. Do you see any appetizers that you would like?

Barry Conrad
I actually do what's jumping out at me straight away, which doesn't maybe is not exciting to people, but I love any kind of seafood or clam soup or anything like that crab soup. So the shi crab soup, I'm definitely going to get that as well as the, ah, the flaming soccer cheese.

That looks pretty interesting. Caseri cheese, flamed with brandy, served with bread and, ah, you can't tune a piano. Oh, that's hilarious. Dad joke tuna. It's this is, it's felt like you can't, and then T U N a to the, you know, actually I'm definitely getting those, those three you can't tune a piano. Yeah. What about you?

Melanie Avalon
Solid choices. I think I would get I would appreciate the cheese through you I would also like that.

I would like the tuna tartare. Yeah Definitely the you can't tuna piano you we have to get that that's like that's like Barry Conrad right there

Barry Conrad
That's hilarious. You got to, I don't know why that's so funny.

Melanie Avalon
And then, okay, for your actual meal. Okay, here we go. And keep in mind you're like in an eye. Oh wait, Barry, have you been to Florida?

Barry Conrad
Yes, I have. A few times.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, have you been to like the keys or like the golf? Have you been to the golf?

Barry Conrad
I have not.

Melanie Avalon
So this is like an island in the Gulf. So it's a different vibe than the Atlantic ocean. It's like warm and I don't know. It's warm on the other side too, but I don't know. It's a different vibe, like the Gulf vibe.

So what would you like for your entree?

Barry Conrad
This looks really good. There's a few good choices here. I'm like, what am I going to choose? I think I'm going to go for, uh, I've got to go for this.

It's the some like it hot, hot, hot, which is shrimp and tequila, hot butter with rice. No, no, no. I'm scrapping that cause I don't love beans. I'm going to go to captain's courageous, which is salmon and coconut, coconut shrimp with rice and chili sauce. Let's go.

Melanie Avalon
Nice. That's a really solid choice, especially like where you are. I feel like that respects the island.

Well, I kind of just because it's called Marilyn Mignon instead of Marilyn Monroe, which by the way, there's also like Marilyn Monroe stuff everywhere. Like I can't, I'm not describing this place well, but just look up Bubble Room Captiva. Well, I think, okay, so maybe the Marilyn Mignon, which is a filet mignon wrapped in bacon. Oh, over demi-glace with onions, but I would get it without the sauce. Although I think I would ask what the fish of the day is. And if it's something low mercury, I might get that too. I might get both. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's called smoke gets in your eyes.

Barry Conrad
I like these names, they're so good.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm, that's what I'm feeling.

Barry Conrad
Good choice. I'm also gonna I have to add another mains to my mother another main meal.

It's going to be the pork chops. It's the Charlie Chaplin chops. Good name pork chops with bourbon mango or mushroom at Merlot sauce. I'm going to do the mushroom.

Melanie Avalon
I was wanting the pork chop too. So that makes me happy.

Haven't you eat a lot of pork Mel? Oh, not really. I love pork. Yeah. Every now and then I'll get like a really intense craving for it and I'll like have to have pork. I don't know what, what nutrient is in it that I'm craving.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. I don't know if it's an American thing or not, but in New Zealand and in Australia and South Africa, when we have pork chops, we like to have it with like mustard. You do that too?

Melanie Avalon
No. I mean, like, I mean, I mean, it might be a thing, but it's not like a thing thing, you know, it's not like, it's not like you're like pork chop, oh, mustard, like Dijon mustard, creole mustard, I went through a mustard phase, and I even like made it myself, it like almost blinded me, or is that the horseradish?

Like, I remember I think it was horseradish. Have you ever, I'm trying to think it was the mustard that I chopped up or the horseradish that I chopped up and they say like, don't look into it. Oh my goodness, don't look into it. You will go blind.

Barry Conrad
Like, audience sort of thing, but worse.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, yeah, like sear your eyes out like I think it was the horseradish.

Barry Conrad
Did it taste? Do you feel like yours tasted good, the one that you made?

Melanie Avalon
uh-huh yeah yeah you should try it it's like really approachable like you know you just go get some horseradish at the store and then like chop it up but don't look inside

Barry Conrad
So you just want to have like the top and then have.

Melanie Avalon
You got to let it air out. You like cut it into squares and you put it into a chopper and then you like let it sit and you don't look at it.

Okay, and then we get to, I guess we're gonna, are we skipping from the garden?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I don't need the garden. I'm not doing that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, these are the desserts that they're massive and the pieces are huge and I'm getting so many flashbacks right now And I'm getting really nostalgic and emotional. It's fine

Barry Conrad
Oh my god this smell you know me and there's so many things right now that making me excited looking at this dessert menu.

Melanie Avalon
Am I guessing for you?

Barry Conrad
Sure. There's a, there's definitely two minimum for me that I immediately would.

Melanie Avalon
Well, do you want the French chocolate, Tort?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, yeah, we'd have that.

Melanie Avalon
Was that one of two or you would have? It wasn't one of the two though.

Barry Conrad
Was it wasn't one of the two but don't if you're gonna say it wasn't

Melanie Avalon
I didn't think it was, I, yeah. I knew you wanted, okay, wait, is it the butter crunch ice cream pie? Oh wait, very moist chocolate cake, I missed that. I missed, okay, I thought there was only one chocolate.

I'm taking my answer back, I'm starting over. Very moist chocolate cake.

Barry Conrad
Yes, but I kind of cringed when you said that because I'm not going to say the word, but that second word in that sentence, I hate that word so much.

Melanie Avalon
You're one of the triggered people. You can't do the word moist. Moist? No! Don't say it! Why does it bother people? I don't understand. It doesn't bother me.

Barry Conrad
I said it to my mom, I said, mom, I don't like it. She goes, I said, well, I said, there's so many different ways to describe a cake like

Melanie Avalon
But it's moist. Do you see the picture of it? Do you see the picture? If you click through the pictures, look how good it looks.

Barry Conrad
It looks so good. Melanie, I want that right now.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, it's so good. And the red velvet cake is to die for.

Last time I went there was back in my cake eating days. And I think actually, wait, true story, like confession moment, I am obsessed with red velvet. And I think it's very emotional for me. And I think it ties back to having it here. Like the first time I think I had red velvet cake was at this restaurant.

Barry Conrad
This is a moment, I actually would, I'm obsessed with Bella cake and chocolate cake, so both of those. Oh really? Yeah, both of them, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
That was your other one that you would get? Well, that's perfect, too perfect because the very moist chocolate cake is probably your best cake.

Why would you say that to me? With the red velvet. So even hearing it bothers you? Yeah.

Barry Conrad
It's like hearing and seeing it. I just I can't deal especially here

Melanie Avalon
It's funny is that that's very common, you know, like a lot of people feel that way. Really? Yeah. Oh, you didn't know this

Barry Conrad
Well, I thought people like try to make it seem like Barry. Why? What's the deal? It's just a word.

Melanie Avalon
I'm validating you right now. No, no, no, this is like, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is like a thing. People do not like that word.

So like you'll read reviews of restaurants and they'll like not say it. They'll be like, they'll like make it like a curse word. They'll be like, M you know, asterisk. Really? Yes. This is a thing. This is like, you are, you are not alone. Don't listen to the people who say that you're alone because you're not, you're not alone.

Barry Conrad
It's kind of it's it's kind of like nails on a chalkboard or like what's another sound like when people write do you say Sharpies in America like you know when you write on you know there's like sharpies I hate that the sound of that and I hate the sound nails of chocolate.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, really? Yeah, I can't do it. There are some things I hate the sounds of, but neither of those bother me. There's something that really bothers me and I'm trying to think what it is.

Oh, I don't like, I don't like, this might be more a texture thing, I don't like Kleenex rubbing together. Kleenex? It's very specific. I know, I can't really quite explain the situation that I don't like, but it involves Kleenex.

Barry Conrad
I've never heard that one before.

Melanie Avalon
And when i think of something else i'll let you all be like this really bothers me.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, but I'm literally I'm having a physical reaction thinking about sharpies on a book like I'm literally like physically something's happening thinking about it.

Melanie Avalon
Wait, oh wait, you're talking you're not talking about sharpies. You're talking about dry erase boards

Barry Conrad
Yeah, you know, it's like there's a like, like a pen on a whiteboard, you know, and you can wipe the board off like

Melanie Avalon
So this is going to be helpful to know. This is helpful for you to know because Sharpies here, well, oh, wait, does Sharpies, they make dry erase.

So when we say Sharpies here, we think of like Sharpies that you use on paper.

Barry Conrad
Oh, that too. Oh, I can hear it right now. It's crazy. It's so visceral.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I love that sound. It makes me happy. It reminds me of being back when I was little my dad's office and like getting all the markers and writing on the whiteboard and feeling really like cool.

Barry Conrad
This is good because maybe I should use, I can use this for like a scene that I meant to feel just in agony.

Melanie Avalon
What you could, you could, like the response it's going to make in your body is going to be so authentic. They're going to be like, cast him, you'd be like, what, like, what did it for you? They'll be like, well, you know, when you just had that visceral response of like complete anxiety and displeasure, we knew, we knew it was you.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny.

Melanie Avalon
And then the wine list, I feel like I got to bring in, well, is there a cocktail that you want?

Barry Conrad
No for sure you already know me i'm gonna go for i'm trying to find my eyes is trying to find a tequila based one here i will golden age of hollywood. Give a golden tequila grandma and lime upgrade to an a list with the trans silver and control do that as well sounds good i'll have a cocktail.

Melanie Avalon
Amazing. And I will, I'll bring a bottle of dry farm wines.

I'm looking at the wine list, and it's a little bit like US conventional. So I have been to the one of those wineries though. Two of those wineries. Two of those wineries. Yep. Behringer and Francis Coppola, which is a very stuff from the Godfather there.

Barry Conrad
That's so cool. Are there any wineries in New York State that you know of that I should check out?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I actually, I don't know, I'm sure there are. You should add that to your to-do list. That'd be...

Barry Conrad
What about ATL? Any around there?

Melanie Avalon
Yes, there's quite a few like North Georgia, North Georgia wineries. And they're so cute. And like very beautiful. So when you come, we can go.

There's one place called the chat. Oh, I'm gonna save that for a restaurant. Never mind. Save it, save it, save it. Okay. Well, in any case, listeners, friends, thank you for being with us on this in the spirit of the bubble room restaurant whimsical journey through life, dancing through life. The show notes for today's episode will be at iapodcast.com slash episode 440. They will have a full transcript. They will have so many links to the things we talked about because I was taking so many notes with so many links. So all the codes, all the discounts, everything will be there. If you would like to submit your own questions, you can directly email questions at iapodcast.com or you can go to iapodcast.com and submit questions there. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are iapodcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad. I think that's all the things. Anything from you Barry before we go?

Barry Conrad
That's all the things. Thank you so much for tuning in once again everyone. Have an amazing week and we'll catch you next time. See you all!

Melanie Avalon
I will talk to you next week. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes.

We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

See you next week!

Sep 15

#439 – High Protein Processed Foods – Good Or Bad, Social Problems With Fasting, Fasting Inconsistency, Protein Leverage Hypothesis, US Food Options, Protein Metabolism Benefits, Hunger Hormones, Ultra Processed Foods Problems, And More!

⁠https://www.instagram.com/p/CnH-86tua07/?igsh=N2NiaTdxbnc5ZzAx

Welcome to Episode 439 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

SHOW NOTES

SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS

COWBOY COLOSTRUM

HARVEST RIGHT

LMNT

LINKS

Featured Restaurant: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Canoe⁠

Book: ⁠The Longevity Leap: A Guide to Slowing Down Biological Aging and Adding Healthy Years to Your Life⁠⁠⁠

STUDIES:

Short-term effects of high-protein, lower-carbohydrate ultra-processed foods on human energy balance

⁠⁠If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 439 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX and author of What, Win, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo style meals, intermittent fasting and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you.

Please remember the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 439 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad
Hey, Mel. Hey, everyone. I am doing so good today.

Melanie, on the weekend, I actually went to a Studio 54 themed birthday party. It was like a joint birthday for some new friends, and I reckon you would've loved it. It was like 70s, 80s kind of vibe. Yeah, it was so much fun. I've never been to one of those before, Studio 54.

Melanie Avalon
What do you think? I think that's it for now. Bye.

Barry Conrad
I wore this like white, sort of like a white cream polo with navy trimming orange pants, like orange trousers. These white kicks and I combed my hair out like Afro style.

So like Jackson 5 kind of vibes.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it was so much fun.

Melanie Avalon
Because Studio 54 is 80s, right?

Barry Conrad
mid-70s through to 80s. And I thought of you that night because some of the girls were wearing all these sparkly things and one of the girls said, I'm wearing all the sparkles of like, oh, this is such a Melanie thing.

She'd love this.

Melanie Avalon
We would have been friends. It's amazing.

Barry Conrad
Have you ever been to one of those?

Melanie Avalon
No, but the closest thing is not last biohacking conference, but biohacking conference before that. The theme was 80s.

And I was like, I can't, like the 80s is so disguised, I just, there's nothing redeeming about the 80s in fashion and clothing. And then I, that's when I found Studio 54, I was like, oh, I can kind of do that vibe rather than like 80s.

Barry Conrad
What about the 80s do you not, you know, feeling the big.

Melanie Avalon
hair.

Barry Conrad
You don't like that?

Melanie Avalon
No the clothing like 60s you can make you 50s you can make use 70s you can make you 80s is rough

Barry Conrad
It's like rockstar vibes.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I guess if I can just wear a lot of glitter, it's kind of like 80s and then like 90s shoulder pads like who I hope that I bet that trend won't come back because I feel like that was one trend that was about like feminism and stuff.

What's that one? Like the shoulder pads and for women in the 90s.

Barry Conrad
I still see shoulder pads in some fashion stuff like really definitely

Melanie Avalon
I get ya. I just, I feel like it's contrary to the way the feminine form is natural, like I don't, I just don't understand it.

Barry Conrad
So it's a note for you to wear shoulder pads and to your next show that you go to.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I just I don't want to look like a man. That's not my style.

Barry Conrad
your vibe, going for it.

Melanie Avalon
No, I'm all about the equal rights and working like a man, but I don't want shoulder pads.

Barry Conrad
What about you? How's your week been? How's your weekend?

Melanie Avalon
It's good. I'm excited because I'm looking ahead at when this airs.

So this airs September 15th. Do you know what I will have done a couple of days ago? What? I will have gone to Hans Zimmer concert front row. Really? Yes. Have you seen him live?

Barry Conrad
I sadly have not yet and that would be absolutely incredible, that would be amazing.

Melanie Avalon
I was looking at clips of like the potential lineup from past concerts and it's like, you know, like Pirates of the Caribbean and Lion King and all and like Inception and all these like really epic songs.

Barry Conrad
That would be amazing. Who are you going with?

Melanie Avalon
to be determined. Do you want to come?

Barry Conrad
TVC. Actually, because this is, I just realized this is...

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, because you actually could have come, but you won't be here.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I'll be wrapping up destiny in Australia, back in Australia, which is so wild to say.

Melanie Avalon
wild. Yeah, when is the last when's the last show?

Barry Conrad
like mid September. So exactly when you're watching Hans, I'll be maybe doing the curtain call.

Melanie Avalon
Whoa, wild. That's crazy.

I was watching actually this week. I was our people who make the show notes needed the link to your like to Destiny for tickets. So I was looking at the website and I was watching the video they have on there of you and your your co star, like talking about and stuff. It was really cool.

Maybe we want to go see it. I mean, I already wanted to see it. But I was like, I want to go.

Barry Conrad
I can't wait. You should come. You should come, but I know that it's, I think it's just a bit too far for Melanie to travel. And also, you'd have to be there for more than a day, so.

Melanie Avalon
yeah it's like oh it's a little far Yes, definitely. Someday, though.

Barry Conrad
I also saw a movie that I think that you I think you might like when I was watching it with this movie club

Melanie Avalon
What movie?

Barry Conrad
It's called the materialists. Have you heard of it?

Melanie Avalon
No. Is it new?

Barry Conrad
It's new. It stars Dakota Johnson, Pedro Pascal, and Chris Evans, and it's about dating. It's all about, like, she plays this matchmaker, a professional matchmaker. And it's basically revolves around this matchmaker who treats dating like a spreadsheet, like money, height, image, you're either in or you're out. I reckon you find it really interesting.

I didn't love the movie, but it did make me realize in a weird way how we can sometimes approach health that way. Like we want sometimes one shortcuts or hacks or perfect macros. But forget that the real transformation, whether in love or fasting, whatever, is isn't just about numbers. It's about showing up with consistency and tuning into what feels right and not just outsourcing, you know, just data. Do you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
That was such a beautiful segue and like, in comparison, I feel like you were made to be a motivational speaker.

Barry Conrad
What do you mean? I'm not motivational.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, that was really motivational, what you just said. I'm like, yes, sign me up.

Barry Conrad
But thank you. That's very kind. And also, I do think you should check it out because I think you'd find it entertaining. It's pretty funny.

Melanie Avalon
Is it in theaters right now?

Barry Conrad
It's in theaters right now, and it's savage as well, just that, you know, it's like really savage.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, how do you define savage? I feel like I don't use that word a lot.

Barry Conrad
sort of just really brutal, like really crazy what she says and what the people go to asking for like, this is what I want. This is what I don't want.

And it's stuff that things that you wouldn't say to people necessarily, but you're paying someone to set you up with someone. So you're saying all these really crazy things. You shouldn't. I think you'd like it. Let me know what you think.

Melanie Avalon
I like Dakota Johnson. A lot.

Barry Conrad
I don't know why I think that you would, but I thought that as soon as I was sitting there, I was like, I reckon Mel likes her. I don't know why.

Melanie Avalon
Did you, did you back in the day, read Fifty Shades of Grey? I feel like that, because that's kind of what, it's not kind of what like, made her pretty famous.

Barry Conrad
I didn't watch any of those movies, see that's not for me, I don't love those kind of romance novel things. It's just too much for me, erotica.

Melanie Avalon
The thing about it was, you know, because it came out after it was like all based on Twilight. Like that's, do you remember like the book? Really? Yeah, it was fan.

It was Twilight fan fiction. I know it's not the Twilight characters, but that's what inspired it. So and I was a big Twilight person. And then it was like a whole thing. People were like reading in. I read the first book. I was like, okay.

Barry Conrad
Did you watch all of the shades of grey ones, you know?

Melanie Avalon
So why did I do this? I saw the movie when it came out, the first one, and then I don't think I saw the others. And then like a, hmm, like a year ago, year and a half ago, two years ago, maybe two years probably, I was like, I kind of I'm gonna watch the Fifty Shades of Grey trilogy, like, I'm just gonna do that right now. And I did.

I don't know why. Yeah, it was fun. It's like, when you make it through, you know, watch it, when you watch like all three in a row, then you make it to the end. And they do like the really sentimental like montage, flashback of like the scenes in the beginning. And you're like, I'm getting emotional. And you're like, what is this? Like, this is not what am I doing with my life right now?

Barry Conrad
I feel like it's a female thing, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon
I think it is. Did we talk about this? How I met somebody who actually has

Barry Conrad
Also, let me zoom out for a second and say, I'm sure it's for everyone. It's just like more and more experience. It's not something a lot of guys I know watch those movies.

Melanie Avalon
No, I completely understand what you're saying. I think it is.

I mean, it was really... And like, the book was like a whole... Women read it a lot more. Have I discussed or have we talked about Fantasia? No. Okay, there's a reason I'm saying this because we're talking about reading books.

There's this thing called Aphantasia and it's where... Okay, so you know when like, you're reading a book and you picture it in your head? Like, the story?

Barry Conrad
All the time.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, some people can't do that. What do you mean, you can't do that? It's called aphantasia and they don't, they literally can't make mental images in their head. It's like being blind in your mind.

So like if they're, and so then the reason I'm talking about it is I made a new friend and we were talking about like, cause he seemed like the reader type, like not that there's like a reader type, but I was saying how I used to read a lot growing up. I'm like, I bet you did too. He was like, actually, no, not really, but there's a reason for it. And then he said that he had aphantasia and I was like, Oh my goodness. Cause I had just, I had just read about it. So he can't, I was so excited. I felt like it was me as a celebrity. I was like, you have this condition, tell me more. So like you, when you have it, you can't, you can't make mental images. So he was saying like, he was never really intrigued by reading because you can't, you don't picture it in your head. You just read the facts.

Barry Conrad
That's really sad to me because the whole thing about reading for me, especially fiction, is the mental imagery that it evokes.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, isn't that crazy?

Barry Conrad
That's really crazy. And at first, how's that possible though? How can you not imagine?

Melanie Avalon
I don't know. But then the thing is, the crazy thing is they can't imagine what it would be like to do that. Like to them, it makes no sense.

Barry Conrad
So can they imagine anything even if they're not reading like just imagine the summer's day or that they can't picture make any pic for many pictures.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, no, they can't see anything in their head. Wow. Yeah, I was reading out because I went down the rabbit hole because I learned about this for the mind blown podcast. And then I was going down the Reddit rabbit holes, reading like things from people who had it.

And like one person was saying she was a painter. And the reason she liked being a painter was because it allowed her to actually create in the world what she couldn't see in her mind. I was like, Oh, wow, that's really deep. You know,

Barry Conrad
Yes. Aphantasia. Aphantasia. It's kind of like a very pretty name for a bad situation.

Melanie Avalon
I know, right? But I wish you could have seen me because I've known about it for a few months now. And then when I met the guy who had it, I literally freaked out. I was so excited.

I was like, I have so many questions for you. And some people don't realize they have it, like, because they don't, they don't know that you're supposed to, you know, it's like a thing like, it's hard, it's hard to notice the absence of something.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I really love, I love the power of imagination. It's such an important part of being creative.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, they can imagine, you know, situations, but they can't see, they just can't see any of it.

Barry Conrad
Wow.

Melanie Avalon
So yeah, reading would be so boring.

Barry Conrad
Yes, just data and numbers and letters.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.

Barry Conrad
It's not for me.

Melanie Avalon
Me neither. Glad we don't have that.

Barry Conrad
It should be like, I don't know, it's not, not anyway.

Melanie Avalon
not something so pretty. Yeah. I feel like actually that the word for when you don't have feelings is also very pretty. I think it's anhedonia.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, that sounds like someone's name, like a girl's name or something.

Melanie Avalon
Anhedonia. So, so beautiful sounding, but it's the inability to experience joy or pleasure. What?

Barry Conrad
That's sad.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's a common symptom of depression, but it's not actually depression itself. It's just literally not having, it's like feeling numb.

Barry Conrad
Aw, man.

Melanie Avalon
So anhedonia and

Barry Conrad
Aphantasia.

Melanie Avalon
Fantasia. I think of Anastasia. Anastasia.

Barry Conrad
I mean, I'm surprised to hear that. And speaking of surprises, Mel, I know that you mentioned something about you don't like surprise parties. Why is that?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, yes, just really quickly. Yeah, because because Barry was telling me about a surprise party situation, as he would say in his, in his words, and I was like, I can't believe we haven't talked about this. So basically, don't throw me a surprise party.

Okay. But why? Because I need to. There's a way that you can if you really want to, if you really want to, I have to think that I'm going to something like I want to like, look my best and like be prepared and like, so I need to think I'm going to something else where I'm already dressing up, then it can be a surprise party, I guess.

Barry Conrad
So basically, if there's a dress code or like the style of event, then you can work with that.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, like because I want to make sure that I'm in like the right party mode, you know, and I've like done the party thing. That's the other thing, like my schedule, like I need to be in the in the right energy, which means I need to prepare for it.

So I need to think that I'm going to something else. If you don't, what happens? I'll be not happy about the situation.

Barry Conrad
Is this kind of like that fought restaurant situation?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, my mom knows this she's like I never threw you a surprise party because I know that you were not Although I did get thrown a surprise party once true story When I graduated early from high school my all my friends threw me a going away party a surprise party. I'm actually trying to remember Because you know what?

I remember. Um, oh, I know what happened I thought I was going over to like spend the night with my friend This is before I was crazy. I guess I was fine. I guess I was better with surprise parties back then I thought I was going over to spend the night I was so exhausted because they threw it like right after exams I remember talking about I was like i'm not gonna go i'm i'm too tired And she was like you have to go. I was like, no, I don't I was like, why do I have to go? She's like and then she and then she told me she was like I wasn't supposed to tell you but they're throwing a surprise birthday party or a surprise party So then I have to go

Barry Conrad
Do you think that you could ever revert back to liking them or not? Or would you ever like them and...

Melanie Avalon
I think I would like it if we follow the protocol I just gave.

Barry Conrad
like sans protocol if you were like so what if people turned up to your door like a massive surprise like all these people

Melanie Avalon
No, don't I don't want people coming into my my life.

Barry Conrad
Like if they basically like you just got back from choir therapy and all of a sudden you get this knock and the open the door and these balloons and everything and

Melanie Avalon
Don't do that.

Barry Conrad
Or would you just leave them outside like you can't come in?

Melanie Avalon
I'd be like, I'd be like, thank you guys. Can we do this another time? Can we, I'll meet you tomorrow night? Yeah, how about you? Are you down for any surprise party anytime?

Barry Conrad
You know what? I actually get shy at stuff like that because I'm fine with being on stage, being on camera, doing a podcast, anything like that. But when it comes to life, when it comes to attention put on me in personal situations like that, I get kind of bashful and shy.

I'm grateful, but I don't get mad. I just get shy, really shy.

Melanie Avalon
No way, in all social situations or just like this type.

Barry Conrad
Well, not also, no, I could like, you know, in life, I can hang out with anyone and stuff, but I think with surprise parties or surprise when people go around saying like, nice things, like, you know, stuff like that, I just get really bashful. I'm not used to like, I find that hard to sort of receive.

Melanie Avalon
Have I told you one of the most game-changing things for me in my life with this concept? Because I don't know if it's the exact same. I used to really not like getting compliments. I mean, it's the same thing, like it makes me feel, like I feel like I don't know how to receive, like you're saying like, I don't know how to receive it.

Like you want to kind of like downplay it or so, but then I read something and it was saying when somebody gives you a compliment, literally you can just say thank you. You don't have to say that's not true. You don't have to justify it. You can literally just receive it and say, thank you. Game changer, game changer in my life.

Barry Conrad
And to, and to clarify, like if someone says, excuse me, a compliment, it's very different, but it's more like if it's a group thing and, and they give a speech as a, I just want to disappear. Cause I feel so shy, like, you know, it's more like, yeah, I don't know why it's like a kid thing comes over me.

It's really interesting, but I'm so not shy, like put me in front of an audience and stuff. I'm great.

Melanie Avalon
Wow.

Barry Conrad
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Aw, we learned something new. Now we know how to navigate the world of surprise parties.

Barry Conrad
So turn up to Mel's door with balloons and everyone in the whole situation and she'll love it and she'll invite us in and make us steak and cucumbers in her robe.

Melanie Avalon
And I will have a party for you and I'll make sure everybody writes a really intense speech about how awesome you are and then we're going to all read it. Everybody's going to read it for hours.

We're all going to toast. Everybody's going to have their little speech. Yep. I'll organize this.

Barry Conrad
Does Danny like, listen to Danny, Danny, I like to call, but Melanie calls it Danielle. Does Danny like this kind of thing? Does she like surprises?

Melanie Avalon
I don't know, actually. I have to ask her. I guess we just weren't like a surprise party throwing family, really.

Barry Conrad
There you go.

Melanie Avalon
Well, shall we talk about some fasting related things?

Barry Conrad
Let's jump in, do you have a study first this week?

Melanie Avalon
I do. I'm actually very excited about this study.

It is called Short-Term Effects of High Protein, Low Carb, Ultra Processed Foods on Human Energy Balance. Okay. So let me explain why I'm so excited about this study. So I feel like we look at studies a lot or we talk about the research on fasting and protein and the effects of like if you overeat protein or if you add more protein, how does that affect your weight? It's normally we're talking about like whole foods forms of protein, like just adding more I mean, it's never like ultra processed food protein. So the purpose of this study was to see if you gave people and let them eat whatever they want, but it was ultra processed foods. If it's either high protein or normal protein, how did that affect like their energy intake, their appetite, their weight loss, all their thing, all the things. Actually not weight loss because it was kind of a short term study, but their metabolism.

So would you like to know what they found?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, tell me. That sounds super interesting. Tell me what they'll find.

Melanie Avalon
So they had two different groups. And really quickly, so in the beginning of the study, they talk about how there's this thing called the Nova classification, which, and I think we've talked about it on the show before, but it basically determines what the different forms of processing are. And so ultra processed foods are foods that have low cost ingredients. And then they're often modified by chemical processes with little to no intact, unprocessed, or mentally processed foods. And they also have additives, which are called cosmetic additives. So basically, you know, cheap ingredients, they modify it somehow, there's not really any like real food in there. And they also add in things to it. And then they talk about how over consuming these is pretty much, you know, known today to lead to it's very palatable. So we want to eat more of it, it's high calorie, and it doesn't really have good effects. And yet at the same time, what they were saying is that there's a lot of like, even though the ultra processed food industry is foods that don't seem to have good metabolic effects, they'll label them as like high protein. So it's kind of like marketed to us as a health claim, when it's an ultra processed food. So that's what they say in the beginning of the study.

And then they also mentioned something called the protein leverage hypothesis, which we've talked about before. And that is basically where the idea that people will eat to satiety with protein. So like you need a certain amount of protein and you'll be hungry until you eat enough. So they wanted to also see how that was involved with everything. So in this study, so it was 24 people, 13 women, 11 men, and it was a single blind crossover inpatient study in a whole room indirect calorie meter. So basically, what that means is these people were in a room where it was measuring by measuring the carbon dioxide levels, they could tell how much energy these people were actually burning. So you actually can like measure people's metabolisms in these rooms. So it's really tightly controlled. And then the way it worked was for the participants, they were randomized to two groups, and they would do one of the diets for five and a half days, and then like a washout period, and then they would switch the other diet. So the two diets were number one, the high protein, low carb group, and let me tell you what that included, that was a, okay, so the high protein, low carb, ultra processed food diet was 30% protein, which again, I don't even consider 30% diet, but 30% protein, 29% carbs, I don't consider that that low for carbs. And then there was a normal protein, normal carbohydrate group, which was 13% protein, 46% carbs, and both of these are being ultra processed. And so what they found was that the people who had the higher protein, oh, and again, like I said, it was ad libitum, meaning people could eat as much as they wanted, which is naturally because it's ultra processed food, that's naturally going to lead people to probably eat more.

Melanie Avalon
So in the end, the people, both groups did end up eating in a calorie excess. So they both groups ate more calories than their body needed.

So the protein leverage hypothesis, it could not prevent overeating. However, it did make the group that in the higher protein, they actually consumed less. So anywhere from 196 plus or minus 396 calories, less in the higher protein group. And so the techniques that they found was that protein, that higher protein led to less post-prandial ghrelin release, which ghrelin is our hunger hormones that actually makes you hungrier. So the people eating the higher protein, after they ate, they had less of the hormone, making them want to eat more. So it makes sense that they ate less. They also had higher PPY. And that's a hormone that increases satiety. So not only did they have less of the hormone that made them feel hungry, they had more of the hormone that made them feel full in the higher protein group.

What's interesting is this happened, even though the people that were eating the higher protein, their stomach actually emptied faster. So the food went through them faster, yet they still were less hungry, which is counterintuitive because you would think if your stomach's emptying faster, you would get hungry again. But that's not what they found. They also found this interesting. So the people in the higher protein group actually had higher 24 hour insulin levels. That might be surprising to people that it was lower carb higher protein, they had higher insulin, but that's because amino acids can stimulate insulin. So they think that's why that happened. But what was interesting is they did not have increased markers of insulin resistance. So basically, they made a comment about how you shouldn't, I'm paraphrasing, but basically this higher insulin levels, 24 hour insulin levels on the higher protein group, shouldn't be seen as marker of insulin resistance because that wasn't what was supported by the findings of everything that they were testing in these people.

The higher protein group also naturally led to a higher fiber intake. The higher protein group, they had higher metabolism both when they were sleeping and 24 hours. And the reasoning for that that they hypothesized was probably from two things, from thermogenesis. So protein just requires more energy to break down. So it's partly from that. And then apart also could have been from gluconeogenesis. So basically, the liver creates carbohydrates or glucose from protein. And that's actually an energy expensive process. So it requires energy to do that. So both of those factors together made the group that ate a higher protein, ultra processed protein to have a higher metabolism. So one of the main things that they really concluded about it though was, yes, both groups over ate. So ultra processed foods are going to probably make you overeat even if it's protein. But the higher protein, it increased their metabolism more and they ate less, but it was still in excess.

Melanie Avalon
My takeaway is ultra processed foods make you overeat. And even if they're high protein, they're probably going to make you overeat.

But if you're gonna eat ultra processed foods, make them protein because you're going to get less of the negative side effects. So yeah, what do you think about this?

Barry Conrad
Wowzers. Well, first of all, this is such an interesting study. I mean, ultra processed food, as soon as you even mentioned that is like, what is she going to say? Because we already know, you know, these foods are designed literally to keep us overeating. Like we can't, I was not surprised at all by the outcome of both groups eating more like in excess of what they needed.

Because especially because and also the whole thought of these foods still being marketed as healthy, you need this protein. So get this, it's still healthy, even though it's processed and people reach for that on the go. I thought it was really interesting that the higher protein group actually increase their metabolism, even though it's ultra processed food, that was not something expected, because it's within ultra processed food context. So it's what so their body just still worked harder to process the food then also, I wonder why that is.

Melanie Avalon
and it was in comparison to the other group. So basically eating more protein, they saw in the metabolic rates of the two groups, it would have been nice to have a control group, you know, that was eating maybe whole foods.

So basically, if you ate that, if you ate more protein, processed protein, you would burn more calories, but it but none of it is enough to make up for overeating that's going to happen from it all being ultra processed.

Barry Conrad
It also makes you wonder, like, does the metabolic boost from the high protein, like some people might go, it doesn't matter if the boost is from high protein, if you're still overeating ultra processed food? Like does it, you know, as long as you're still having protein, or is the insulin rising just from protein or is it the way it's processed?

That was interesting, too.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that was really, really interesting to me. It was interesting to me and I'll actually read the sentence that I mentioned about.

They said that the postprandial insulin, so what they did is they looked at the insulin to glucon ratio that can indicate the role of insulin resistance or not. So it was lower in the high protein group. So they said that the improved glycemic control during high protein, low carb, ultra processed food, despite a high calorie intake and high glucagon, suggest that increased insulin secretion in the situation does not reflect insulin resistance. So there was more insulin secretion, but it was not a negative insulin resistance type situation, which is very interesting.

Barry Conrad
Also, you know, it suggests I guess their bodies are working much harder to process the food, but still not enough to balance out the excess. It's like you can't out eat.

You also can't win. When you're eating ultra processed food, I know from experience, you want to keep eating it. It's so hard to stop. It's hard to have moderation with that.

Melanie Avalon
I agree so much. I'm trying to see what they actually like what their actual conclusion conclusion was

Barry Conrad
Also, to me, that's not really low-carb in the high-protein low-carb group. I know. 29% carbs is not low-carb, right?

Melanie Avalon
Not in my book. I mean, that's more just like, to me, like moderate cards, especially if people are doing like a balance, like 30, 30, 30 or the way I found this actually was I, it was a, it was a situation where I was reading another, I was looking for something else and then I saw it referenced and I saw the title and I was like, oh, this looks so interesting.

So yeah, this was published by the way in March of 2025 and nature metabolism.

Barry Conrad
such a awesome fine melon. And you know what, the, the jarring reality is now that I'm America, there's I was walking the other day, going from store to store, there's like so many stores, like every other stores, like a whole new grocery store, and like aisles of ultra processed snacks.

And like, there's no shortage. And I'm like, I need to really also like, if I can practice self control, and it still can be tempting at times, imagine what the everyday person must go through with just being bombarded with so many options.

Melanie Avalon
So does it look, I'm really curious by that. So it does, it's different, it's a different experience than walking around in Australia, like the food that you see everywhere.

Barry Conrad
Very different. First of all, the volume of it is insane. Like so much food.

Second of all, the ultra processed stuff is so cheap. I mean, that is sort of similar to Australia. But just yeah, it's scary how many options there are, especially in the ultra processed.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. That's so interesting. Yeah. Welcome to the US. Have fun!

Barry Conrad
But in saying that I also love the good thing is I also love that there's so much because there's so many options for other things like different is literally something for everyone, really.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, this is true. We represent like, like all the different countries, you know, like you can get all the different food and so you can navigate it though.

Like I'm just saying like for me, like I, I have to like just not even I just don't even look at it.

Barry Conrad
Do you know what, Mel, I think you mentioned this before, but like you said, I think you said something like when you get to the US, it's going to be interesting how you go out. I'm trying, like this is the first week where I'm properly sort of eating the way I did in Australia because the first week was a lot of celebrations and a lot of going out and stuff like that.

So I need to find, find my staples here, I don't have my staples yet or like the brands that I like. So I need to probably take a little while to get that right. The brands of, you know, beef and da, da, da, everything, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Well, you know what I'm going to say to that, right?

Barry Conrad
All foods. Yes.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and this is where really like the whole walk around the perimeter of the store don't go in the aisles thing really helps.

Barry Conrad
It does help, although I did that the other day, actually today, earlier today, and I went to the outside and I saw lines of corn chips and I'm like, oh, damn.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, yeah. I mean, you gotta, yeah, you have to just like put on, it's like the opposite of beer goggles. Like you have to put on the goggles that just show you what you're going for.

Barry Conrad
Exactly.

Melanie Avalon
So, oh my goodness, keep us updated.

Barry Conrad
on my food adventures. Yeah, and just navigating. Yeah, definitely.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Well, thank you.

I'm glad you enjoyed it. I really, really liked the study. I thought it was so interesting. And just to put a bow on it, it is kind of frustrating to me like, and like the article talked about and then you commented on as well, like these foods are so bad for you. And yet they market them as being healthy, you know, like high protein. And it's like, it's like the worst of it is like when you see the breakfast cereals and they're like, heart healthy, like ADA certified, it's like how in the world is a, the American Heart, right, or AHA certified, how in the world is the American Heart Association, like certifying any breakfast cereal? I, I just cannot.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's crazy. It really is.

And people like a lot of people at time pause. So then they'll want to go into the store, maybe in a hurry, and they'll see like a bag of something that looks appealing that says protein, but it's like a bag of chips. I'll grab that, you know.

Melanie Avalon
The high protein thing kills me, like it, so look beyond the labels, just get the real protein. And you'll be a lot better off. Alright, so we jump into some listener questions.

Barry Conrad
Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
So we have a question from Claudine. This is from Facebook and the Facebook group is IF Biohackers Intermittent Fasting Plus Real Foods Plus Life. And Claudine says, the social aspect of fasting is the toughest for me. My eating window closes mid-afternoon. So anything I do in the evening where food or drink is involved leads me to skip that fast, leading to inconsistency.

I've tried, but I can't move my eating window to evening only, it completely wrecks my sleep. So do we have help for Claudine?

Barry Conrad
We sure do. Claudine, thank you so much for your question. It's a real life challenge, and you're doing your best for the sounds to stay consistent with your fasting. You've found a routine that technically works for you and then come along to the dinner with the friends and the spontaneous hangs of the birthdays or the date nights and suddenly you're off track. It can be frustrating.

I've been there. It's not necessarily about discipline, it's just life. It can really happen. So first of all, you're not alone. The structure there makes sense. Like you eat, you close the window, and your evenings, they're clean and simple, but socially, it can feel isolating sometimes, the tension between goals and connection. I totally get that. I also hear you on the sleep situation. You've tried moving your eating window and what you're saying here to later, and it's not working for your body. And that can be a really common pattern, especially for people who are a bit more cortisol sensitive. For some eating later, especially heavier meals or meals with sugar or alcohol, that can really wreck your sleep or really hurt your sleep, spike your stress hormones and leave you, I guess just not getting that quality seat that you need. So I completely understand why that's a no go.

So what do you do? I think this is where the flexibility is gonna come in a bit more. So you've already got self-awareness, so you know that shifting your whole protocol to the evening throws things off. So maybe I'd suggest it isn't moving your whole window, maybe create a plan for this, maybe the special festive occasional situations. So something like intentionally doing a longer fast before the event maybe, or opening it, even a second little mini window, maybe with something light in the evening, or even just reframing that as a, like a maintenance day, planning for that. I mean, I know for myself, if I know something's coming up, I'll be, I can maybe tighten things extra tight and during the week and then for that week and I know I'm gonna maybe have a bit of a longer window and I plan for that, plan for those indulgences. And that's not a fail, the goal isn't to be perfect here, it's to be consistent over time.

And it's also something that's gotta fit into your life. You know, it's really important that that happens. So if you're fasting clean five or six days a week and then occasionally pausing for something meaningful with your friends and your loved ones, you're still building incredible metabolic benefits, that's not going away just with those one off moments. And emotionally, that freedom can actually take a lot of pressure off and motivate you for the week ahead. Another idea, you could keep your main eating window maybe as is, but sip on something like a sparkling water, or even like a non-alcoholic drink at a vent, so it's not too calorically dense or it's not gonna derail you. It sounds simple, but a drink in hand, even if it's just water without anything in it, and I think Mel and I have talked about this before too, it could just take the social pressure off as well if that's something that bothers you, even if it's just literally water.

Barry Conrad
And when you do choose to eat or drink, you make it worth it, not feel any guilt, no awkwardness, because you made that choice. So you're clearly being intentional, Claudine, I love that, just remember again, that's not a diet, this is a lifestyle, it's gotta fit into your life and be sustainable.

You're allowed to bend and break with, without breaking the whole rhythm of throwing the baby out with the bath, that doesn't have to happen. Your sleep matters, your joy matters, and the fact that you're even asking this means you're tuned in and doing the work. So, Mel, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. You, you pretty much said all the things I was gonna say, which is basically, you know, there's different routes and ways that you can approach it. But first of all, before that, I love what you're saying about the mindset. So I literally wrote for one of my notes, I wrote Don't Sweat It, but I don't mean Don't Sweat It. But what I mean is getting rid of the anxiety and stress and you know, reprimanding yourself for what you're doing is not going to help anything.

So being open to being more flexible, like Barry was saying, I think is great. I think it'll help so much. And then when it comes to the actual, like what to do, Barry just kind of ended with it, we've covered it before, you can choose not to break your fast. And that is an option. And that and really the thing with that is more about, I mean, it's funny, it's hard, like, it's more about being comfortable with yourself and what you think people think of you rather than, you know, any struggles with fasting for most people. So like Barry was saying, if it's like, if it's not like an actual like dinner, and it's just like a party situation, people really, I mean, if you're holding a cup of something, like Barry was saying water, like people really don't notice people are often more times focus on themselves and other people. I do get how if it's like an actual dinner type thing that can be awkward. I mean, I am really good at not well, actually, I typically like drink because then I eat later afterwards. So I've been doing this so long that I'm comfortable with it. I really get though that that, you know, a lot of people are not open to that. But I really like the idea because the other thing I wrote was was changed food. And what I what I meant by that was, you don't talk about what you're eating. So the and you don't talk about your goals or anything like that. Besides not wanting to wreck your sleep, which is really important. But basically, it's like, where are you in your fasting journey? So if you're just at maintenance, then a day of changing your fasting is probably not going to change much, especially if you don't go crazy. And or you do things like Barry said, where you kind of, I don't wanna say compensate, but make adjustments later to kind of like balance things out. So maybe you have more on this one day, because you're going out in the evening, and you're gonna have more. So then maybe the next day, you have just like a tighter window. Or if you haven't adjusted your food choices, there's a lot of power in the food choices aspect. So maybe, you know, the day when you're going to have a longer eating window, you make more conscious food choices about what you're eating. So there's a lot of flexibility here. I and I guess she doesn't say how often this is happening. She just has social aspect and anything I do in the evening. So is this like once a week, or once every other week? Or is it like, all the time? So that's that's a big question. But basically, I, I wouldn't stress about the inconsistency part, because that doesn't necessarily have to be a problem. And you can adjust for it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I feel like I just said a lot of what you said. And then the completely wrecks your sleep part of it. It's so funny how like some people like I sleep so well on a full stomach, and some people don't. And it's so interesting how people are really individual that way.

I actually was interviewing Seamland. Do you know, do you follow Seamland? Do you know him? I don't know. I've been following him for years and years. He's beyond brilliant. He's from Estonia. He's really big in the biohacking movement. His books are he's young too. He's so young. He's like, he's so young. He's like much younger than me. And he's brilliant. And he has so many books and they're the deepest dive ever into health related things. And so he's he has one like on autophagy, like fasting. So I brought him on recently for his newest book, which is called The Longevity Leap. So it was the deepest dive that I have seen, honestly, into all the things affecting aging, how to reduce your biological age, it was fasting, diet, all the different diseases that we get, you know, how to what they mean.

But we were talking about eating windows, he talked about he talks in the book about how, yes, it probably seems like eating earlier is better from all the data. But it's also really important that you do what works for your chronotype. And some people, you know, stay up later. And what he was saying that he used to sleep on a full stomach, then he got married, and she wanted to eat earlier. And they both do fasting. Now they eat earlier. And he said now he enjoys going to bed on an empty stomach. And I was telling him, I was like, okay, I'm really curious if I actually if somebody forced me into that, if I would actually like it eventually. Like, how about you? Like, because you you you don't like going to bed on an empty stomach, right?

Barry Conrad
No way. I've been fasting for seven years plus now, and I'm used to having my own med later in the day and feeling satiated, satisfied, and not hungry.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, like the idea of going to bed on an empty stomach, it's just so miserable to me. But it's interesting though, like maybe that it can change for people.

So one other idea I'm having talking about this, I'm curious like what aspect of it, you know, makes you like, wrecks your sleep. Maybe if it's like an eating situation, you can just eat like lighter at the dinner. You know, like maybe it doesn't have to be all or none. Like it doesn't have to be like, I'm having all this food because it's dinner. Maybe you just have like a longer eating window, don't stress it. And just eat light like a small appetizer. There might be a way to get best of both worlds.

Barry Conrad
It's honestly so, it's so doable. It really is.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Do you think we should have our proverbial breaking fast moment?

And actually, before we jump into this, Barry, I was just thinking, because for listeners, we're recording in the evening. And I always have to, because I'm in an apartment, I'm on the fourth floor, I always have to, like, when we start recording, it's light outside and then it gets dark. So I have to close my windows. But your situation, are you you're high up, right?

Barry Conrad
I'm high up in a high rise and like on the 30th floor, it's now dark, like the sun doesn't sit here in New York until after eight. At the moment now it's late now, so it's like, it's 9.24 now, so the sun's well and truly set now.

Melanie Avalon
I'm just kind of jealous. I was thinking about this when I was closing my windows.

I was like, it would be nice because you don't have to worry about people, you know, like seeing in your apartment. It would be nice to be able to just keep the windows open.

Barry Conrad
Well, actually I'm looking out right now. It's such an amazing view. Oh man. Did I send you a photo?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.

Barry Conrad
I did, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
You can see me more, though. I love photos.

Barry Conrad
It's I love looking out at the lights

Melanie Avalon
See, that's so nice. Do you close the windows at all?

Barry Conrad
not in the living, actually, no, not at all, not at night because, you know, no, just leave them open because it's like, it's too far away. It's too high up.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so I'm jealous is my point.

Barry Conrad
Well, you could leave yours open, no?

Melanie Avalon
No, no, no. That's what I'm saying.

I'm on the fourth floor and I'm in a courtyard. So directly across from the... If you look at my window, it's other apartments looking back at me. So people would see straight in.

Barry Conrad
That's not good.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, which we can't have

Barry Conrad
We can't have it.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so for our proverbial breaking of the fast moment, what restaurant do you have for us, Barry?

Barry Conrad
Okay, Melanie, I actually have a restaurant that you may even know of. I'm sending it to you right now. See if you know it.

Melanie Avalon
Wait, did we do this one on the show yet? Did we not?

Barry Conrad
I don't know, have we?

Melanie Avalon
Wait, this is one of my favorite restaurants in Atlanta.

Barry Conrad
It's called canoe. I don't think that we've done it.

It's nestled along the Chattahoochee River in vinings with serene waterfront gardens and walking paths. It is inducted to the nation's restaurant news fine dining hall of fame. And their wireless is thoughtfully curated to complement fresh, elegant fare. And apparently the vibe is pretty romantic, yet relaxed, which is great for milestone dinners or casual date nights by the water.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so this is wild because when we first, because when we first decided to do this restaurant idea, I was like one of the first restaurants I'm gonna do is canoe because it's one of my favorite restaurants in Atlanta.

Barry Conrad
Really?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's not my favorite. It used to be. It used to be my favorite.

Barry Conrad
So this is a first because there's never been a restaurant where

Melanie Avalon
We've been, no, no, no, no, no, old Disney, I've been to.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, that's right. But this is like in your hood in your

Melanie Avalon
It's really exciting that you picked it and I've been already.

Barry Conrad
That is actually pretty cool.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. Yeah. So what's really cool about canoe, I'm just like, go, go on this. Actually, it was funny.

So I've only gone at night, apparently has stunning views of the river and you can go for brunch and see it, but I've only gone at night. So I've actually never seen the river outside. The menu is very, they have a lot of food that you, like they have kangaroo, they have, which I know is a big, which I know is everywhere in Australia, but we don't have that here normally. They have like a kangaroo appetizer. They have like a rabbit. I've actually had a birthday dinner there. I've had dates there. I've gone out with friends there. It's, I love it.

Barry Conrad
Well, off to go then. That sounds great. I'm so glad that you've been there and that you like it. That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon
I do, yeah, yay, okay, this is so fun. Okay, so you go to the menu.

Barry Conrad
goes to the dinner menu, so I'm really interested then to see what you choose because you'll know exactly what you'd like, like more so than normal.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, this is cool. I know. I know. Last time I went I went over the holidays.

I went to the bar actually. But yeah, I've eaten there. I think I've eaten there maybe three times. And what's cool about it too is the location of it. It's not. So most of the most of like the like well known restaurants. I'm just thinking about how I wish that you were like here more in all the places we could go. But they're in like Midtown or Buckhead or downtown Atlanta, like they're in areas. This is kind of like just like off, like by itself. Somewhere, which is kind of cool. Appetizers, we get to use the US language.

Barry Conrad
Yes. What would you get seeing as you've been there?

Melanie Avalon
Let me... Oh, look what they have. You see what they have, right? Oistas. So I'm gonna get the... Wait, do they not have the kangaroo right now? Oh, yeah, they do.

So I'm definitely gonna get the peppercorn-crusted kangaroo loin. It's so good. It's rare. Well, actually, do I order it rare or is it always rare? I'm trying to remember if it's like tartar or not. I'm gonna get that. It's really good. Wait, question. How often did you eat kangaroo in Australia? Like, do people eat it all the time?

Barry Conrad
It's so easy to get so accessible and it's like it's like you are people have ground beef mints. It's like you can get like kangaroo stir fry. So it's like it's not like a just a fancy restaurant thing. It's like a everyday grocery store. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
It's so lean.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, so lean.

Melanie Avalon
And I don't think it's legal in every state here.

Barry Conrad
That's surprising because it should be, it's also so high in protein as well.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's like so good for you. I remember when I first found it.

I think it's Because I think I remember I would get it here. I would buy it here and I think I moved to california and I couldn't get it maybe Okay, so i'm gonna i'm gonna get two things i'm gonna get the the kangaroo, but i'm gonna so the way it normally comes prepared Is peppercorn crested kangaroo loin with bulgogi pork belly edamame soba noodles colby butter oreo oreo oreo furikake I would get a plane but barry. Do you want to try some like do you want me to get it like with the stuff on the side

Barry Conrad
Yeah, because I was going to order that as well, but I'd rather try some of that and order two of my own ones.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so that and then I also would like some cold smoked Atlantic salmon, which comes with crispy potato cake, creamy goats cheese, caper dill cream. Again, I would get it plain, but do you want the stuff on the side?

Barry Conrad
Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Oh wait, they have Georgia white shrimp?

Barry Conrad
Yo, I'm gonna get that.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, okay.

Barry Conrad
All the good stuff. I'm going to get the Georgia white shrimp and the cold water oysters on the half shell, 40 of them, please.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness.

Barry Conrad
So excited.

Melanie Avalon
I don't actually think that's the price, so there must be like two sizes.

Barry Conrad
I'm sorry, it was the other surprise.

Melanie Avalon
So you want the large size, basically.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I want the large size, the full situation.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome

Barry Conrad
So we have the entrees, it's mains, the mains.

Melanie Avalon
No, but it's not called it here, entrees. I like that we respect the menu, you know, we respect the terminology of the menu. Okay, so entrees.

Barry Conrad
It all looks so good. It looks like a great place.

Melanie Avalon
It is good. I really like it.

And I can tell you, so I always wanted to order the Blue Ridge Rabbit, but they pre marinated in something so I wasn't, it doesn't, you can't get it without like a marinade.

Barry Conrad
Hmm

Melanie Avalon
Okay. I'm trying to remember what all I've had here.

I think I'm gonna get the, yes, I'm gonna get the maple marinated Rohan duck breast, except not marinated because I remember they couldn't make it without the marinade, which comes with toasted jasmine rice, red beans, jerked mushroom, pineapple pickle, but I'm gonna see instead if they can substitute and just give me like steamed spinach, if they have that. Mm-hmm. With some, yeah. Maybe some garlic. How about you?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to get the oven roasted Dürich pork chop.

Melanie Avalon
I was just looking at that and that was my, I was like, wait, should I have gotten that? Okay. I'm glad you're getting that. Sorry, I interrupted. What is it?

Barry Conrad
that's okay you know how the at the end they say chard avocado chard chard chard chard chard

Melanie Avalon
Are you going to ask for it to be non-chard? No, cool.

Barry Conrad
Didn't you say Chod's bad when it's meat, right?

Melanie Avalon
Anything Barry

Barry Conrad
I don't know. I feel like I need to respect the menu. Respect the terminology, respect the... I'm going to get that and I'm also going to get the scallop. That looks good too as a second situation.

Melanie Avalon
Would you like to read it?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, so it's called the Agnolotti of Georgia's Bank Scallop Dash Ramps. It's grilled baby carrot, minted English pea cream, shaved radish served with that.

It looks really good. And I think something light to have with the oven roasted Duroc pork chop, which I think would be quite good.

Melanie Avalon
And how are you going to get the pork chop prepared?

Barry Conrad
Medium rare.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, okay. Wow. I think we will go medium with pork.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, because you still can have it a little bit rare.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, I'm a bad person to ask. I'll eat anything like rare.

OK, and then I'm actually surprised. I don't know why I thought you would get it, but I kind of thought that you were maybe going to get the duck and beef burger.

Barry Conrad
Thank you.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.

Barry Conrad
Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. Did I miss that duck and beef? Ah, can I change my order?

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, I know you so well.

Barry Conrad
Okay, I'm going to delete the scallop.

Melanie Avalon
OK, wait. Oh, you're going to. OK, that's fine. Yeah.

Barry Conrad
And I'm going to keep the duck and beef. Duck and beef burger. It's got sunny side egg. So does the sunny side egg perfect so it can melt all over the burger.

Pickled red onion herb truffle fries. Let's go. I'm so excited about that.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. I'm glad I pointed that out.

Good thing you have me here. We'll be at the restaurant and you'll be ordering. I'm like, wait, and I'll like stop. I'm like, he doesn't want that. I think he missed something on the menu.

Barry Conrad
Are you going to just, you're going to have to put up with my, uh, eating. Cause I, I really go in when it comes to burgers, I'm not trying to look cute. I'm just eating it, pick it up with my hands.

Melanie Avalon
I love it. I love it. It makes me feel less self-conscious about my eating, which I'm still going to eat, you know, the way I told you.

Barry Conrad
You tell people to look away and stuff.

Melanie Avalon
No, I just, I cover my mouth and I, I eat like very small bites and I go very slow. So like, when I'm at a table with, you know, lots of other people, I'm always the last person eating and I'm going slow.

And then they want to like take my plate. I'm like, no, I'm still working on that.

Barry Conrad
You know what when people take your plate before it's actually kind of offensive like that happened to be the other day like this still like one or so left.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I know why they do it though, because having been a server for a very long time, sometimes you're trying to, you know, get people to move along. But okay, desserts.

Barry Conrad
There's a, what are you, eyeing?

Melanie Avalon
So there's something here that I hope, I think I know what you're gonna order. I hope you order it because it's very unique.

Well, I'm giving things away. If I were, I'm gonna ask for obviously, I think I'm gonna get the pork chop for dessert.

Barry Conrad
I just don't, I don't know anyone in my, I've never ever met anyone in my entire life who orders them like a mains or a savory dessert.

Melanie Avalon
I'll probably get kangaroo again for dessert actually. Like a, yeah. I'll probably get like another round of kangaroo and salmon from the appetizers for dessert. I love the kangaroo, it's so good. And I can't get it anywhere. We should really actually really go here because then you can talk about kangaroo.

Barry Conrad
That'd be awesome, I'd love that.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, to-do list. If I were ordering a dessert, I would get, well, I'll let you go first. What would you get?

Barry Conrad
I would get the Georgia strawberry brulee and also the hummingbird cake.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so you didn't get what I thought you might pick.

Barry Conrad
It's going to get the Republic adult down.

Melanie Avalon
I thought you were going to be intrigued by the popcorn ice cream.

Barry Conrad
You know, I don't know, like I don't love like popcorn on ice cream sound like that's a bit too much.

Melanie Avalon
Have you had that before?

Barry Conrad
Because in Australia, do you do this thing where you take like an ice cream and you dip it into your popcorn in the movies and eat it?

Melanie Avalon
No. Okay. So this explains why you didn't order it. So this is like not kind of like, this is weird. We don't do this here.

Barry Conrad
It's not a novelty. So it's like, okay, I've tried that before. It's, it's okay.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, okay. That explains. Okay, because I need to like explain why I got this wrong.

Because I think if it was a novelty, you would have been like, Hmm, but it's not clearly. Yeah, we don't do that. We don't. That's not a thing here. I don't think

Barry Conrad
You do it in the movies and as you get your pop your box of popcorn and then you buy like it's called a chalk top and it's like a you know the ice comes in like a rapper but you buy you take off the shell of chocolate you buy through that and then you dip the vanilla ice cream pie into the box of popcorn and eat it off it's just a thing in Australia.

Melanie Avalon
Whoa. Do you guys have Dippin' Dots? What's that? Okay.

Okay. So, okay. Hey, I've never heard of this little like popcorn concoction magicalness alchemy thing you do. We don't do that. The ice cream we do is Dippin' Dots.

Barry Conrad
I don't know what that is.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. Okay. So we have to go to a movie that has a Dippin' Dots machine if they still have them. So this is what, okay, ready? Imagine yourself being like a little kid, because that's when I did this last. And you go to this machine, it's called Dippin' Dots. And it's basically like ice cream from the future. I literally think that's the tagline. I think they're like Dippin' Dots ice cream from the future. And it's like little tiny, tiny little balls of ice cream. And there's different flavors like, you know, vanilla and chocolate and Oreo and birthday cake. And then the way they do it from the machine is you pick your flavor and then it's like a vacuum and it's like this thing comes down and like vacuums up the Dippin' Dots and gives it to you and then it comes out like a vending machine.

You should Google it, the Dippin' Dots. There's a rainbow. I'm going to Google it, Dippin' Dots. This is mind blowing to me that they don't have this in other places. Oh, wow. That actually looks really good. And it's okay. I'm looking at pictures right now, friends. I'm getting so many flashbacks. I can taste it right now. I can taste it. I can literally taste it.

Barry Conrad
Cause I was just at the movies on like last week and I didn't, well, we didn't have any time to get snacks, but maybe this was right there.

Melanie Avalon
Look around actually and like report back because I'm guessing they still do this. It is so good

Barry Conrad
Oh my gosh, I need to try it. Okay, next time, the next movie is happening probably, I think, this weekend, so I'm gonna look for it.

Melanie Avalon
see if they have a Dippin' Dot machine. And also next time we record, I have an article that came up and it was about Australian desserts.

And I wanna like go through them with you and see if they're actually real or if this is lies.

Barry Conrad
All these Australian myths need to debunk.

Melanie Avalon
I know, I know. Okay, so you're getting the hummingbird cake.

Barry Conrad
and the Georgia strawberry brulee that looks really good.

Melanie Avalon
Have you had hummingbird cake before?

Barry Conrad
I don't think so.

Melanie Avalon
Do you see the ingredients? How do you feel about that?

Barry Conrad
Banana, mascarpone, pineapple. I just think cake, I like cake, you know.

Melanie Avalon
I do too. I'm a cake person.

Barry Conrad
So I'm interested to see what the concoction would taste like.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I think I would probably actually the two things you picked if I were getting one, I would get that I want to I would want to try the hummingbird. I am intrigued by Georgia strawberry brulee.

Barry Conrad
Okay, Mel, if you click on the cocktails thing, it has the by the glass wine and cocktails on it.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. And I've actually, you know, like I said, recently been here. I'm trying to remember what I, I remember I took a long time looking through the list. What did I actually end up getting? I think, oh, okay. I see one that I recognize. The, the Pinot Noir, patriarch, Paris Feels, Borgone. I think that's probably what I would get.

I know. I think that's organic. How about you? Is there a cocktail that speaks to you?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, let me look here. What's it called then?

Maybe the, um, maybe the Tom Riddle, cause it has bourbon in it. And then I'll also get a, I think, you know, I might actually try some of the peanut, no, I you're getting, cause I think, you know, having, I'm having the, the meat and stuff as well. And then I might have like a whiskey on the rocks later as well. But yeah, Tom Riddle, one of your pinot noirs and maybe like a whiskey on the rocks afterwards.

Melanie Avalon
Tom Riddle's the Harry Potter reference, right?

Barry Conrad
Is it? Yeah, this transformative cocktail includes Mitch's bourbon housemate. Yeah, maybe it is.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, Harry Potter. There you go. Awesome. Okay.

Well, we're going to have to go. And now we definitely, we were just talking about how we need to do more social media with stuff. We definitely have to like, for this post, I have pictures of being there.

Barry Conrad
We should put that in there, like a carousel or something, you know?

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I'm gonna make a note, add Melanie's pictures to Instagram, perfect. All right, how did you find this by the way?

Barry Conrad
I just, you know, as I always do, I just go for a deep dive and just look for interesting restaurants. And then I was like, Hey, this is in Atlanta. I'm wonder if Melanie's been there.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, well, you found it. You did not. You were not looking for Atlanta restaurants. No. Whoa. Mind blowing. So what list was it on? Like what? Do you remember?

Barry Conrad
I actually don't remember. I'd usually just kind of look for... I'd go by the structure of the restaurants that I've had before and do a search sort of like the same sort of feel or like, you know, good things about it, good wine list, and then a whole bunch of stuff just pops up.

Melanie Avalon
wow okay that's even more mind-blowing because i was like oh he was like i'm gonna find a restaurant in atlanta in honor of melanie i'm so self-centered that i literally i had that whole narrative in my head oh my gosh wow that's amazing that's so cool yeah they're they're super cool like i said it's been they were at one time when i first moved to atlanta a while ago they were my my favorite restaurant and then i found some others but i do really like them so

Barry Conrad
It looks really good, like really, really good, actually.

Melanie Avalon
we should go. It has good lighting too, by the way, which actually, just to like quickly give a note, I actually, if I have to put the hierarchy of what's important to me in a restaurant, I think number one is lighting.

How do you feel about that statement?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, because you can't eat in bad lighting.

Melanie Avalon
I just cannot. So like, it's actually more important to me than the food because the food could be amazing.

Everything could be amazing. The theming could be amazing. But if it's like bright lighting, I just don't want to be there.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it was jarring, like, elevated, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
So the lighting here is, it's very dark. They have booth, they have the booths that I like that are like the, I don't know how you describe it, like the wall booths where it's very like, very like very big booths where like a party of five can sit, but you're all like in the booth.

Barry Conrad
That's cool. Also, they have a dress code that says Canoe upholds a smart business casual dress code.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I like a dress code. I'm always down for a dress code.

Barry Conrad
Hey, this is a woman I encourage to wear pant-slash-skirt suits. Wear dresses or pant-slash-skirt suits. There you go.

Melanie Avalon
Art suits. Oh, that's like where you have like the like the blazer, I guess.

Barry Conrad
Well, it's really, it's very specific. I like that though. Cause it adds to the vibe where, you know, it's, yeah, the whole feeling.

Melanie Avalon
What's interesting about it is because I was talking about the location, so everybody who comes there is very intentional. You're not just going to accidentally show up.

All the other restaurants are in places where you might just walk in because it's like you're in midtown, you're in downtown, you're in Buckhead, but here you have to choose to go there. So I feel like people who are there are very intentional about being here, if that makes sense.

Barry Conrad
I get what you're saying. Also, where are we going? Can't wait.

Melanie Avalon
I know, can't wait! Shout out to Canoe!

Barry Conrad
And then you'll be like, he's not getting that, hold on, he's not ordering that.

Melanie Avalon
Yep. All right. Well, this was so, so fun. Thank you so much, Barry and the listeners for all the things.

Listeners, you can go to ifpodcast.com slash episode 439, and there will be a transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are ifpodcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad. And also congrats to you, Barry, for maybe rapping Destiny when this airs.

Barry Conrad
Thanks so much, really appreciate it.

Melanie Avalon
So, this was so much fun, anything from me before we go?

Barry Conrad
Thank you so much as always for spending part of your day with us listeners and we'll catch you next time and I'll talk to you next week.

Melanie Avalon
Talk to you next week.

Barry Conrad
Bye!

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Sep 08

#438 – Special Guest: Dr. Chris Meadows, Fasting For Surgery Recovery, Resolving Chronic Pain, College Sports Injuries, Supporting, Not Stopping, Inflammation, Curing Arthritis, Stem Cells & PRP, Muscle Growth & Protein Intake, Natural Anti-Inflammatories, And More!

⁠The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #211 - Christian Drapeau⁠

Welcome to Special Guest Episode 438 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

Dr. Meadows is a dual boarded physician holding certifications in both Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation as well as from the American Board of Electrodiagnostic Medicine. Dr. Meadows has expertise in neurological rehabilitation, musculoskeletal medicine, diagnostic and procedural ultrasound, and electrodiagnostic medicine. His background as a collegiate athlete at the University of California of Los Angeles where he played cornerback and wide receiver for the Bruins, was instrumental in developing his passion for sports performance. He carries what he’s learned in these experiences to develop a unique and scientific approach to patient care where he incorporates principles of exercise, nutrition, supplementation, and recovery guiding patients to maximize their own performance either at the gym or in the work place. His training in Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation gives him a keen understanding of tissue specific modalities for optimal performance and healing. This set him up with a great foundation and a natural pathway towards Regenerative Medicine, where he has focused his most recent efforts into understanding and applying. His Regenerative Medicine approach focuses on best practices for health optimization, injury recovery, and age reversal.

Dr. Meadows has always enjoyed teaching. In residency he was peer-elected to be Chief Resident where he supported curriculum development. He has maintained his academic roles over the years serving as the Associate Program Director for the St. Luke’s Rehabilitation PM&R Residency Program, Clinical Assistant Professor at the Department of Medical Education and Clinical Sciences at the Elson S. Floyd College of Medicine at Washington State University, and Clinical Faculty through the University of Washington School of Medicine. He’s also contributed as an author to major medical texts in the field of Rehabilitation Medicine.

Outside of work, Dr. Meadows puts into practice what he teaches by committing to a life of health and fitness with regular exercise and focus on nutrition. He enjoys strength training including olympic lifting and has recently taken up racing triathlons. He also remains passionate about youth sports by volunteering as a coach for his young children and running athletic development programs for high school and college athletes.

WEBSITE | IG

SHOW NOTES

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HARVEST RIGHT

Links:⁠

⁠The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #280 - Christian Drapeau⁠

⁠⁠⁠⁠If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 438 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX and author of What, When, Wine, Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine, and I'm joined by my co-host, Barry Conrad. Actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you.

Please remember the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine. If it's that time and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 438 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I am here today with a very special guest that I am so excited about because we are going to tackle a topic that honestly we get questions about all the time and we have never really had an expert on to address it. So the backstory on today's conversation, maybe like a year ago or so, our mutual friend, Ben Greenfield, who has been on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking podcast, introduced me to an incredible doctor, Dr. Cameron Chestnut, and I had him on that show. The topic, he does a lot in the world of cosmetic surgery and cosmetic procedures with a, I would say like a biohacking, like a holistic, a regenerative medicine, a biohacking type approach. And so friends, if you have questions about all the cosmetic things like surgery and fillers and Botox and everything like that and recovery, definitely check out that episode. We will put a link to it in the show notes. So I just had the best time having that conversation and he also has a really incredible following on Instagram that you can check him out. So that was Dr. Cameron Chestnut. In any case, through him, I met another incredible doctor at his practice, Dr. Christopher Meadows, and we did a call to just like learn more about him and what he does and what he focuses on. And his story is really incredible. We're going to talk about it on today's show. He has a background in actually like college football at UCLA. My, um, not my nemesis, but I went to USC, so it's all good. In any case, he has a really incredible backstory of his sports background and then transitioning into this world of regenerative medicine, rehabilitation, recovery, all the things. And with talking to him, I realized he was so educated and nuanced on the role of fasting in surgery, recovery, health in general. And I just knew that this would be a really epic conversation to, to really talk more and dive deep into that. And I'm sure we won't just talk about that. There's so many things that we can talk about. I have so many notes here, but in any case, Dr. Meadows, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for the warm introduction. And I'll try not to hold it against you, our alma mater nemesis here.

Melanie Avalon
know, it's all good. I think we talked about this when we talked. What years were you there at UCLA?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
I was there, I graduated in 2009.

Melanie Avalon
That's right, because we think we might have like, because I was there 2009 as a freshman. So I probably saw you, yeah, play, which is wild because like, especially freshman year, that's, you know, like freshman year is like the year you're like really, really invested.

You go to all the games.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
games. Exactly. In the student section.

Melanie Avalon
Yep, in the student section. Oh my goodness, I'm gonna get emotional. It's all good.

So in any case, with that introduction, yeah, where to start. So well, first of all, I would like to start there. Did you always have goals of playing like sports in college? Because that's a big goal.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yes, I grew up a huge sports fanatic, athlete, loved playing sports, loved watching sports. And from very early on, I knew that I wanted to play college football. I wanted to go beyond that, play in the NFL. That was my dream. So I knew that from a very young age.

Melanie Avalon
It's so interesting, especially like when if you've like been to college, the college football players, I mean, you guys are like celebrities, you know, like if you're like in a class with one, it's like, oh, so yeah, that's really amazing.

And appropriately enough, though, I'm so I actually interviewed last week, Dr. Heather Sanderson, and she has a book called reversing Alzheimer's. She talked about this holistic approach, she actually published, I think the first study that shows their their lifestyle type interventions actually reversed our reverse cognitive decline, I think. One of the things she talked about was just things that you could do, you know, to support your brain, one of which was sports and movement, but only certain types, and one of which was avoiding sports. So she literally was said, like, don't play football.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, the head trauma can certainly be a negative impact. So I mean, it's not a not an easy decision when you're thinking about it.

People ask me all the time because I have two boys and are you going to let your sons play football and right now they're in flag football, which is a growing sport, which is awesome to see and is going to be in the upcoming Olympics. So I'm super excited about that. But oh, it is. Oh, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, I didn't know that.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, so that's a growing sport. And I know in Southern California, it's very popular amongst the youth and much safer environment. Obviously, you're not running and colliding into each other and creating head trauma. So a lot of benefit to that.

So I'm torn on that. We can go into that in more detail in my opinions. But certainly having recurrent head trauma is not beneficial for long term cognitive health. That's for sure.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Did you ever have any intense injuries while playing?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
I always joke when I say this and say, I don't remember. But no, fortunately, I kind of stayed safe. I was a coroner when I played college, so I was in the outside and for the most part avoided big collisions that running backs and linebackers play on a regular basis. So I didn't have too many major head traumas, but there's certainly enough there that I'm going to be paying attention to my cognitive health as I get older.

So what happened?

Melanie Avalon
So you did the football, you had thinking of going to the NFL, what transitioned with your career?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah. So as I started thinking about what I was going to do long-term, of course, I still wanted, you always have to have this vision that you're going to go to the next level, right? If you're not, if you're not actively thinking about how I'm going to get better or how I'm going to kind of try to get to the next level of competition, then you're not really coming with the mentality of competing, right? And so of course, when I was early in my college career, I still had that mindset.

I wanted to go to the NFL, but I started to have more and more conversations about what I'm going to do, you know, from a professional standpoint, what is it you're going to major in and what are you going to do after football is over and thinking realistically about life after. And it's a hard conversation for many of them. You talk with anyone and they all really kind of tunnel visions. Like I don't, what do you mean life after football? What is that? What is that? I don't, I don't know of anything outside of what I'm doing now. That was when, and, you know, along with that, I had a couple injuries and that sidelined me for a bit. And so that's when, you know, things start to hit. You have a little bit of a reality check and say, no, you really need to start putting some thought into this. And I always had interest in health and medicine. I always had this idea that I was going to go into the healthcare field to some degree that I started as physical therapy. I had my, my mindset on that because I had injuries and I was in the physical therapy office and I really liked that environment and helping athletes get back, get back to the field and get better playing. Then unfortunately, I had a shoulder injury that required surgery and I was introduced into a orthopedic surgeon. And that's when I thought, wow, this is really where you want to be. This is the space where you're knowing medicine to its fullest. You're knowing all the ins and outs. You're seeing surgical interventions and getting exposed to the inside of anatomy. And I was just blown away with the surgeon's knowledge and the outcome that I had from my surgery. And so that's when it was determined that medical school was the route for me. And when I made that decision, there's conflict there. There's only so many hours in the day and I could not invest to my athletic skillset as I needed to, to keep up with the competition that was coming in. And so I saw that I was kind of reaching my limit and my peak capacity on the sporting world as I started to put more time and effort into the academics. So there was a challenging time there where I had to come to the realization that my sporting career was coming to an end, at least at the collegiate level. I still maintain my identity as an athlete to some degree and still maintain that pursuit for my general health now. But I knew that I needed to spend more time with my pursuits on the medical side. And so I had my sights set on medical school and that's where we are now.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, so many things. Yeah, I thought about this a lot with the with the whole sport thing and that so I personally, I was never a sport person. I think I like in elementary school, middle school, like I played every sport at least once. I think my dad was convinced if I like, you know, I think he made me play everything at least once because he was hoping I would like like one of them. But I've thought often what you were just talking about, about this identity crisis shift that probably happens because, you know, if you're doing these really grand sports where it becomes your career and your life focus, so football, the Olympics, all the things, then I can't even imagine what it's like for that to just, you know, end for people. So I'm grateful.

I'm grateful that my goals and passions from when I was little weren't things that had a ticking time bomb on, you know, then potentially ending due to like age. I mean, age, I guess, really. Yeah, wow. So kudos to you for the career choice that you made, because that's incredible.

That's no small feat. Are there I have so many questions. So looking back with everything that you've learned, do you approve of some of the rehabilitative work that you experienced when you were a college athlete? Do you shutter at some of it? Would you have done things completely differently? The same? Like, what do you think looking back?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's a good question. And it's tough to say because medicine is changing so fast. You know, there's newer surgical techniques, there's newer treatment options. You know, we live in a world now where regenerative medicine is at the forefront and that just simply wasn't available at that time. I was fortunate, despite all of the injuries that I had, that none of them were surgical except for the one shoulder surgery that I had. So, you know, I've always had the mindset of trying not to undergo surgery if not needed, taking the more conservative approach. That doesn't mean you're not aggressive from a rehabilitation standpoint. You know, undergoing surgery is a difficult task and it's, you know, it requires its rehabilitation process. And so anyways, I was fortunate that I didn't have any major surgical needs at that point. And so I am happy with the rehabilitation protocols that I underwent at that time.

However, if we were to replay that with what's available now, would I have pursued additional techniques or options? I certainly would have. And so that's just, you know, I would have hoped that that would have given me an opportunity to return to the field faster, recover faster, recover to, you know, instead of being at 80%, be at 90%, 95%. So those are some of the things that could be offered in the regenerative medicine space. But again, it's just simply wasn't available at that time. So I think I was in the right hands with what was available at that time. And, you know, again, medicine is just changing so fast. And that's a good thing. We're getting some newer techniques and newer developments. And that's just the way of the world. Things get better with time.

Melanie Avalon
I'll share a little bit of your bio involving your medical career because it's really intense. So you've served as the associate program director for the St. Luke's Rehabilitation PMNR residency program, clinical assistant professor at the Department of Medical Education and Clinical Sciences at the Elson S. Floyd College of Medicine at Washington State University, and clinical faculty through the University of Washington School of Medicine. And you've also contributed as an author to major medical texts in the field of rehabilitation medicine. So not only are you learning it, you know, practicing, but also, you know, teaching as well, your passion with this work that you do.

How do you feel like when you're teaching about it versus like doing the work in clinic? Like where's, where's your heart? How do you feel when you do those different things?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's a good question. I've always envisioned myself as a teacher, even with patients, you know, yes, we're diagnosing disease and we're coming up with treatment protocols, but a huge majority of what we're doing with patients is we're educating. We're educating on the background of the disease process. We're educating on what the expectations are moving forward. What are the outcomes with various treatment options that patients are pursuing? So there's always an underlying theme of being a teacher as a physician.

And so that's always been something that I've carried with me and I've had a natural inclination to be able to share knowledge to patients in a genuine way, in a way that's understandable. And that's carried over into the educational side for, you know, learning physicians. So residents, resident physicians who are young physicians that have chosen the specialty in physical medicine and rehab, which is what my specialty is, I've been able to, you know, have the privilege to take them kind of under my wing, so to speak, and to teach them the pearls that I've learned over time. And that includes lecturing, that includes having them in clinic with me and allowing them the exposure of the clinical pearls that I have. And it's just so natural for me to share that with them. And it's fun to see how they develop over time and improve on their skill sets. And when you see light bulbs go off and they start to make these connections and they feel confident in their skill sets, they feel confident in their abilities to take care of patients. I mean, that's such a gratifying experience for me. So I love doing that. So it extends in both, in both realms, both in front of patients and how I'm educating them, which is a unique skill set, but also teaching residents as they grow up to become full blown attendings. And so they're both fun for me.

Melanie Avalon
I love this so much. This is literally what I look for. Honestly, whatever I'm trying to find a doctor for whatever it may be, because I think especially in today's conventional healthcare system, it can often feel very, you know, systemized and like there's not usually a dialogue that easily can happen between the patient and doctor at least in my experience again with like the conventional system. And so what I'm always looking for is a doctor that is, you know, learning and educating and having those conversations. And so this is just the best of both worlds. So thank you.

Before we get into some questions about, you know, surgery and recovery in general, what type of procedures do you actually do?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, so my practice is primarily in the orthopedic space. In physical medicine rehab, we train to be experts of the musculoskeletal system as well as the nervous system. And so we learn in detail pathologies of tendon, pathologies of joints, pathologies of nerves. And so within that, you know, again, with my background in the sports medicine world, that was my interest is I wanted to treat patients and athletes to help them recover, help them improve, help them to get back on the field, you know, and recover from injury or even prevent injury.

So a majority of the patients that I see are coming to me with joint related concerns, tendon related injuries, whether acute or overuse injuries. And so in my practice, I do a lot of diagnostic ultrasound that is really key for my evaluation process because it allows me to see the structures underneath and no radiation involved, no real significant side effect profile. So I can just at the bedside see what's going on with muscle, see what's going on with tendons and joints. And from there, make really clear diagnoses to whatever issues are going on. And so if we do find a pathology, then we can talk about treatment options, which are primarily peripheral joint injections or tendon injections. And so this is where we get into what's available regarding regenerative treatment approaches, including things like PRP, PRF, stem cells. And so the majority of treatments that I offer are bedside ultrasound guided injections to areas of pathology to stimulate regenerative capacity.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. And then would you ever do surgery or refer out for surgery?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, so I'm not a surgeon myself, so I can refer out to surgeons if that's needed.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. So okay, big question here, because I feel like there's two, you know, two big camps of, and this is me not, I mean, you're doing this every day, so I might be wrong with these camps, but I would envision there's like two big camps of people, people who, you know, have a recent injury and, you know, they know it caused it and it's fresh, it needs to be addressed.

And then these people with chronic injuries, you know, like shoulder pain that never went away or whatever it may be, is there a different, do you have a different approach to addressing something that happened more recently compared to something that somebody's been struggling with for a long time?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's such a good question. And you're absolutely right. These are different pathologies, there's different mechanisms of injury that result from these different scenarios that you describe. So in an acute injury, you have usually a trauma or you have, you know, some sort of abnormal position that a person was placed in. Oftentimes we're talking about in an athletic competition, you know, there's a mechanism of injury that you can see clearly caused an injury.

And that is vastly different from a chronic overuse injury. So use the example of shoulder pain, an individual who's had shoulder pain, maybe 15 years, 20 years, maybe has had a couple of acute issues there where they fell on it or something, but never really had any significant trauma that required surgery or anything. And so it's been a long time of just recurrent injury pain that's never really gone away. Maybe you've tried therapy here and there, and it's just lingered. So that type of progression is dramatically different. If you look at these different types of pathologies under a microscope, you would see totally different types of immune responses. You would see different types of changes to tendon or to cartilage. And so certainly you would not want to have the same approach because they're completely different. And how you address that, how you choose to utilize whatever your treatment protocols are, are going to be very different in those two circumstances.

Melanie Avalon
For the chronic example, have you found when you do your investigation or ultrasound, you know, you isolate what the problem may be. How much of it is a one-to-one for you can see the problem and that correlates to what the person is experiencing versus how much can be, I don't want to say in their head, but you know, we have this concept of like phantom pain or, you know, people who will ongoing injuries, but when you actually look at it, it might not signify that that would be what they're experiencing. Like, so how is it usually like you see the problem and it's pretty obvious or is it sometimes not?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's a good question. And that's that's the challenge to the clinician is in particular when I'm doing diagnostic ultrasound, oftentimes, I'm finding lots of pathology, I'm seeing lots of different areas of abnormality. And the trick is to say, well, which one of these is actually causing the pain. And that's one of the nice things about ultrasound is that I can just do this at the bedside.

And I can actually have you move and I can say, well, why don't you show me what causes the pain and I can see it immediately under ultrasound and find that oh, this bursal gets all punched up, pinched up, and it gets, you know, inflamed, I can see it bulging out under certain movements. And so you get both ends of those spectrums where on the one hand, there's multiple abnormalities, and I have to figure out which one it is. And on the other end, you say, wow, well, this is a relatively normal exam, I'm not seeing anything, and trying to tease out, you know, how much of this is, you know, inorganic versus something that's made, you know, come from somewhere else. And you mentioned phantom and oftentimes, I don't run into too much phantom pain, but I do run into referred pain, which is pain that can be kind of your nervous system is designed to sense pain and tell you, hey, that's coming from this location. But when it comes to and that's, that's easily recognizable on your fingertips or something that has a high sensitive high nerve innervation ratio. But you know, your joints can be particularly difficult to really pin down, you know, oftentimes says, well, my whole knee hurts, it just kind of hurts everywhere. And that's where things get a little bit more challenging. But again, when you can see things under ultrasound that does help you, it is challenging when you say, or when you have a case that you just don't see any abnormality and trying to pin out, well, what is it exactly that's going on in those require a little bit more workup. But that is the challenge for the clinician to, you know, go through a thorough physical exam and a thorough diagnostic ultrasound to really find that and I find myself on the opposite end of that spectrum more often than not, which is I'm finding multiple areas of abnormality. So which one is it that we think is actually causing your pain?

Melanie Avalon
Interesting. So, you know, some areas are, like you said, are abnormal, but they actually might not, but they're not causing symptoms. Correct.

With those types of things, is it fine to just, like, let that go then? The ones that aren't causing symptoms?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, you don't want to over-treat and you don't want to diagnose pathology or create diagnoses that aren't there. I don't want to make bigger issues than they are.

At the end of the day, when we think about pain and function limitations, those are really the areas that patients, I want to feel better, I want to be free of pain, and I want to be able to do XYZ, right? And so that's what I'm here to do, is help you get back to functioning or get back to your exercise regimen or get back to playing with your kids, whatever it is that you have interest in doing that you're being limited because of this pain, that's ultimately the goal. And so if I go and treat other areas that aren't bothering you or are not pain limiting, then we're not really achieving a whole lot. Now you could argue on the other side, and I do see this, where patients would say, well, why don't we just treat that from a preventative standpoint? And so we have to have those conversations on what to expect, what are our expectations in doing a preventative treatment approach? And so that's also a different conversation and a different regenerative mentality to think about when we're just doing preventative treatment as opposed to treating something that's abnormal and trying to get us back to function and reduce pain. So there's just different buckets of patient populations and different approaches to take in those circumstances.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I can totally see, especially in the biohacking community, you know, like for me, for example, if I were to see all the things, I'd be like, Oh, I will. Well, I want to fix all the things.

I've had an interesting experience because I have like a tight shoulder knot that is kind of always there. And I also get kind of, I get not too much pain, but tension and some issues, but it's all on the right side of my body. And every time I've had any sort of scan done by whoever is, you know, analyzing it, they've always told me the problem, same with like my mouth, like I have TMJ issues on my right side, I'm always told the issue is actually on the left side. And so that it's, and so that's what one of the reasons I've been so intrigued by, you know, the experience of the pain versus where it's actually coming from, because that always blows my mind when they told me that about things.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's such a that's such a good point.

And then on the other side of that is, you know, when it comes to imaging and when you say you've had imaging, are you talking about ultrasound or x rays or MRIs or all of the above?

Melanie Avalon
So I've had MRIs, X-rays, I don't know if I've had ultrasound, definitely X-rays and an MRI.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah. And these are the things that we always talk about, you know, when I'm working with residents and doing some teaching, we have to be cautious on two fronts when it comes to imaging and these, you know, advanced imaging like MRI, they're static positions, you know, and oftentimes not normal positions, you're lying down and, you know, sitting there for 45 minutes while the magnet is spinning around you.

And it's oftentimes, you know, you wonder, well, what happens if we were to change positions, because there's always this standard position to be in, we think about that all the time when it comes to low back pain or neck pain, and we do an MRI of the spine. And you say, well, this person is laying down what happens when they flex forward? Or what happens when they side bend? And what kind of changes are you going to see in these different positions that could show more of what's going on? But again, going back to my previous topic about not over diagnosing things, you can't call every pathology that you see, there's a certain range of normal, right? And you say, okay, well, this disc is a little bit big here, or this disc height is a little bit, you know, small here, you have to really be a clinician and think about what is actually outside of our range of normal, and what is it that's truly causing this pain and discomfort. And so when you say, well, I have pain on the right side, but they always say it's the left side that bothers me, that doesn't mean you go and start treating the left side, you can, you know, focus on the side that's giving you problem, maybe you look somewhere else.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, this is it's so fascinating to me. Quick question, because I actually appropriate timing. Yesterday, I got back a lot of data from a genetic sequencing. Actually, they're called sequencing was the company. And it generated all of these different reports for my, like my genetic tendency for different disease risk categories. And I was pretty much in the clear for most things, with some exceptions.

And one was which I, my, my mom has really experienced actually a lot of people in my family have had issues with arthritis, that type of pain. I came back like in the red for all of that, which I found was really interesting. So my question, I have not experienced that I'm aware of any arthritis pain to the at this point. But the role of genetics and epigenetics in any given situation. So when you when you see a person, like, like, how much do you look at their genetic data? Does it even matter their genetic data because of the power of epigenetics? How do you feel about the role of genetics and pain?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's a good question. And genetics can certainly be an additional piece of information that can help guide you. And that could be in a circumstance, well, we see all these pathologies and we know what your genetic profile is, maybe it does make sense for us to be more aggressive and talk about what sort of procedures would be helpful or exercise routine or dietary approaches. So I don't do that standard with most of my patients.

If we do have, you know, you get a history and you talk with patients about what's going on, like you mentioned, you have a family history of arthritis. So going into that history can help to say, you know, maybe we should explore this a little bit more or you have patients that have recurrent injuries and you think, gosh, well, why is it that you're, you know, you're back again and now it's your left shoulder and we've already treated both knees and the right shoulder and now you start to kind of, you know, raise your eyebrows as to is there anything else going on? And you might think about doing some genetic testing to see, you know, a lot of those things give some good information and can certainly be additional pieces of information to maybe augment your approach and, and think about being a little bit more aggressive from a preventative standpoint, both from a treatment and preventative standpoint. So those are certainly helpful. We do that with a part of our practice is functional medicine where we do that, you know, more routinely for all of those patients. It's not routine for my patients with the exception of these circumstances that we think, gosh, we need to do a little bit more investigation to see if there's something underlying.

Melanie Avalon
Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, when I got the report back, I was like, well, that makes sense based on what I know from my family history. And still, like, I don't ever want to feel destined by my genes that, you know, I'm going to manifest a certain condition because I think people have so much agency, you know, with what they with their lifestyle.

So when you're working with, you know, this population with pain, what is the role? So you mentioned like, you know, different types of injections, and we can definitely talk about those. And also at the same time, what is the role of the lifestyle that the patient is following? Is there, does that majorly affect either way, the effectiveness of the treatments that you're doing?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's a good question. And this goes to my approach regarding treatment of patients, which is not a single modality. I just don't think of treatment with patients as a single modality, one size fits all type of approach.

And you mentioned earlier the introduction regarding Dr. Chestnut's approach to recovery, which is this multifaceted, you know, post pre and post-operative rehabilitation or recovery. And I think the same in my space on the rehabilitation side that a procedure is one piece of the puzzle. It's also thinking about your biomechanics and how you're moving. What made you susceptible to this injury? And what is it that we can augment in other areas from a nutritional standpoint or from an exercise regimen standpoint? Now, not every patient is really interested in going into that much detail or that much depth for their recovery, but those that are receptive and really want to approach this from a multifaceted approach and thinking about all of these additional areas, then that's when we can really have good conversation regarding, well, I'm going to do a procedure. I think this is going to help. But if we also do this exercise regimen on top of that, particularly when the first, you know, handful of days after a procedure where things are inflamed, but I want to keep things circulating. I want to keep muscles active. I want to keep tension on the tendons. All of those things are going to help in the efficacy of your treatment, regardless of what it is, whether we choose to do a PRP or a stem cell injection. They're going to support and augment your recovery process to help things not only recover faster, but allow for the full efficacy, the full potential of the treatments that we're doing. So I do have those conversations with my patients regularly.

Melanie Avalon
And so you actually touched on something I had a big question about. So you mentioned, you know, this inflammatory state that people can be in. What is the role? I'm very haunted by this actually.

So I think people are pretty familiar with the idea of acute versus chronic inflammation and you know how acute inflammation is actually in theory, a healing process. Like it has a purpose there compared to chronic where it's just not going away and it's creating more damage in that initial injury phase where there's inflammation or even like inflammation, post-surgery, whatever it may be. What is the role of like reducing and suppressing that inflammation versus letting it play out? Like, do you need that inflammation?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's such a good question. And my perspective is that we do want that inflammation when we acutely injure something. You know, you say you're walking, you sprain your ankle, for example, and it gets swollen, it gets red and hot and uncomfortable. The pain sensitization goes up, so you're more sensitive to any stimuli. And that's part of the initial inflammatory phase. And this is part of the healing cascade. And you want it to naturally transition from that inflammatory phase into the proliferative phase and the remodeling phase. Those are your phases of wound healing. And you want it to do that.

And there's, when I was in medical school, actually, we had a lot of conversations regarding acute fractures and what's the role of anti inflammatory, specifically NSAIDs, which is like your ibuprofen, your Aleve, your aspirins, those sorts of medications, which are intended, they're anti-inflammatories, they go in and they block the inflammatory response. And you will feel better, it reduces the pain, it reduces the swelling. But what impact, what potential negative impact does it have by skipping the steps to go through the rest of the wound healing cascade? And so I still maintain that approach. I'm not a big fan of utilizing anti-inflammatories in the acute phase. We can talk about the post procedural approach that I have as well. But the natural cascade of the inflammatory process that peaks after an acute injury and is allowed to go through its full progression will allow for the maximal amount of healing that is necessary for that area. Now, if we have recurrent trauma, or we get back to play or sport too soon, and we now have recurrent injury, and a now low grade inflammatory response, and it swells up again, and we have more pain, and whenever I do this, it really swells up and starts to bug me. You know, those are those are signs that we've not allowed for full healing, we've not allowed this to to fully recover. And so we need to be more aggressive with our rehabilitation, we need to maybe scale back on the activity, we need to scale back on the intensity of exercise or what have you. And we want that inflammatory phase to fully subside to fully come down and allow maximal healing before we start to put in more stresses. But so again, I am against I am against the idea of trying to blunt that response just to allow for improvement in symptoms.

Melanie Avalon
And what about so you're talking in the role of, you know, like pharmacological insets and things, what about if people were to do, you know, high dose, I don't know, turmeric, and, you know, omega threes and cold exposure, what about those ways of doing, you know, creating an anti inflammatory response during the inflammatory phase?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's a good question and that kind of stems from where the inflammation is coming. I think when people are doing those, they're talking about systemic inflammation and what's going on, you know, full body cardiovascular health, overall metabolic health. And I think those are great for that type of inflammatory response, the systemic. Those are also great when we have infection or wounds and they can help to reduce the inflammation. What's nice about those is they don't blunt the inflammatory response in the same way.

When we talk about NSAIDs, we're talking about direct implication or direct inhibition of specific cellular mechanisms of the wound healing response, so specifically platelets, which are the main responder in that inflammatory phase. And so when we have medications that are going after and inhibiting them directly, then, you know, that can have a negative implication moving forward. But when it comes to these more, you know, herbal remedies, the turmeric, those sorts of supplements that we're taking, they don't have the direct inhibitory response that you see with these sorts of pharmacologic approaches. So they're not as negatively impactful. They do not blunt the immune response in the same manner. They do not impact the wound cascade in the same manner. So I don't see any reason with having to worry about taking those in the acute phase and they can potentially support that inflammatory process as well.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Okay.

And I don't know if this is specifically in your wheelhouse, but it's a question that I have all the time and I actually had today and it kind of relates, so I'll just go ahead and ask it. So I often will do M-sculpt for like muscle building, and I usually do like a cryotherapy session right after. Do you have thoughts on the post, you know, strength training session doing anti-inflammatory type things? Does that hinder muscle growth? And this is a tangent question, but I don't know if you have thoughts on that.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, same similar process, right? When we think about an exercise regimen, we are, again, causing an acute inflammatory response. Now, it's not as robust as the ankle sprain example that I gave earlier, but it is still causing muscle damage.

You're having tissue and tendon injury that is of lower grade and is creating a stimulus for remodeling such that we can get stronger, right? Muscular hypertrophy and tendon strength. When it comes to, there's good literature out there regarding the blunting effects that cold plunge can have after strength or cold therapy can have after strength training with specific to the hypertrophy and strength gains. So that's out there. When it comes to body composition, I think there's less impact that that has from a negative standpoint. It's not going to impact that as much, but we know that the cold exposure can blunt that strength force development and hypertrophy effects. So that is something to think about, but it's not hugely robust and it's not a big thing to worry too much about, but it can.

Melanie Avalon
There's basically from what I've seen, there's just enough studies to make me like nervous about it, you know, okay, that that all that all makes sense. Also, while we're existing in the the lifestyle realm.

So fasting and this is something you and I talked about, talked about on the phone and something that I get questions all the time about. So what do you see the role of fasting so intermittent fasting on people's, I guess, inflammatory state pain state, and in particular, recovery from injuries, surgery, I can ask more specific questions, but in general, just fasting. Is that something that you recommend to patients that you like? What are your thoughts on it?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, I'm a huge fan of fasting. I do it personally for primarily for metabolic support. So that's where I really got introduced into fasting and its potential for, you know, supporting insulin sensitivity, supporting cardiovascular disease, blood pressure, lowering, etc, etc. So that's my introduction to fasting was in that realm.

But what's been fun to see is how that's really carried over into the regenerative medicine space where fasting has been shown to support stem cell health, support stem cell number and regenerative capacity. And so, you know, talking with patients, again, if they have interest in pursuing this, fasting is a great potential additional tool that you can use to help regenerate. And in my space with doing peripheral joint injections or tendon injections, the recovery state like the, you know, caloric requirements post procedural is not significantly high. And if you can add a fasting, you know, a period of time of fasting after procedure, it can certainly help with that regenerative process. So we do talk about that with patients. Again, we have we have a variety of patients and their perspectives and their interest in doing that. But it's also well known that if we support the metabolic health of patients that their regenerative capacity is going to improve. So when we say, well, your fasting is not only going to support the recovery from this process, but from a general health perspective, your stem cells are going to be more effective, you're going to have more numbers of them. And they're going to be the capacity for regeneration is going to be higher and support you for the recovery of this injury, but also the prevention of future injuries and risks of future injuries. It's a great tool to use, obviously, it's low cost, and it's not a significant burden to anybody outside of the discomfort that you have when you're fasting. And you know, you can you can scale that back and have a different duration of time for which you do undergo a fasting window. But it is a great tool to use and use it regularly with my patients for the recovery and regeneration aspect.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome and something you said in there is like the question that we get from people which is you mentioned if the caloric needs or the you know protein needs I'm not sure I think you said caloric needs aren't too high. How can people know if they're in that state or not with it like a surgery in particular?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, and that's where things get a little bit more challenging when you think about surgical states because these are more intense, you know, if you have a surgery, the catabolic aspect of that is so high and you really want to ensure that you have good caloric supplementation to meet the anabolic aspect of it that comes after the surgery. And so your surgeries are generally listed as mild, moderate to severe when we think about risk of perioperative surgical interventions. So that's one tool that you can use, but the duration of the surgery along with the location of the surgery can be a big factor to help you decide whether or not you want to embark on a fasting. Of course, you would want to talk with your surgeon to see. It's not uncommon, of course, as you know, you would be fasted going into the surgery, right? You're usually not eating by midnight the night before of a surgery. So you do go into your surgery, you know, varying degrees of having a fasted state. If you're eight in the morning, not as much, but maybe you have a 3 p.m. surgery and so you're fasted for a little bit longer. And if it's a pretty major surgery, they might keep you without eating until you have movement of bowels and you're starting to pass gas. And that's the typical kind of thought process around almost all surgeries.

But when you have things that are intra-abdominal or intra-thoracic, you're really getting into these large surgeries that fasting is probably not going to be a beneficial approach for you to take. Once you can start eating, you really want that caloric supplementation to help the recovery process and the protein supplementation, as you mentioned. So those are big aspects of the healing cascade that you want to make sure you're not limiting your body in addition to the micronutrient demand that you will have at that time. You know, zinc and magnesium, all of these micronutrients that you want to make sure you have in, you know, an abundance so that you can maximize your recovery. But it also is not uncommon for patients to fast in advance of a surgery to be going into it in a slightly fasted state. And the idea around that is having higher levels of ketones, which ketone bodies can be great for recovery as well. But as far as knowing what threshold, there's not a clear line of what the threshold is for what type of surgery, but those would be the considerations. If it's something intra-abdominal, if it's something intra-thoracic, the duration of surgery, those are going to be things that are going to help determine whether or not you would want to have a perioperative fasted state. If it's something that's really relatively minor, that maybe is on the periphery or cosmetic, that might be a better option to seek a fasted state in, you know, pre- or post-surgical.

Melanie Avalon
Actually, and a question related to that because you're, you know, you're talking about speaking with your surgeon about, you know, what is the best approach for people to implement with fasting and, you know, that lifestyle. We actually got a question, it kind of relates, what can people do?

This is not the question, I'll read the question, but if people are having a surgical procedure done, again, in the conventional medical system, what can they do to know how to appropriately integrate different recovery methods. So be it fasting, be it more regenerative things like that that we can talk about, but I'll read this question that will kind of like illuminate what I'm saying. So Macy, for example, she said, I literally had surgery yesterday and the biggest struggle has been finding out what works for post surgery protocols. My doctor who's totally supportive didn't feel comfortable with giving me timeframes for PEMF or red light therapy. It's a fine line to want to utilize all the tools at your disposal, but also not wanting to negatively impact recovery. So I can see this situation probably being pretty common for people because, you know, not everybody is always getting these procedures done with, you know, somebody like your practices approach. So how can people know like what they can be doing on their own to help their recovery in the more regenerative sphere?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's such a good question. And I think it's difficult to say where patients can, you know, it's hard to make blanket statements to say, this is what you can do.

I mean, this is what I run into in my practice quite regularly, actually. It was where patients are having surgery and they're saying, what can I do to support my surgery, my recovery? What can I do in the weeks leading up to my surgery? What can I do post-operatively? And it is really unique to the specific surgery and, you know, what was intervened on to know what is gonna be safe and effective. For the most part, I mean, thinking about, and it's not, you know, again, seeing doctors that just don't have as much knowledge in this space kind of be uncomfortable. And so I do talk with patients about that who we would do consults with and say, here's what's gonna be great. And then having the collaborative conversation with the surgeon, if we need to, to say, here's what I'm thinking, this is what I would do, and here's what our potential side effect profile is gonna be. And most of these are really low risk when you think about PEMF and red light therapy, you know, again, depending on the location of the surgical incision and what it looks like. The one that really requires a little bit more knowledge around is gonna be hyperbaric because of the pressure involved. And so when you're thinking about intrathoracic surgery, you know, I had a recent patient who had a resection of a portion of the lung, and you know, you certainly would not want to increase intrathoracic pressure by putting in patient in a hyperbaric and you can run into some problems there. So that's one that you would certainly wanna look out for. But for the most part, there's not a whole lot of risk, but these are conversations that I would advise to speak with a provider who's knowledgeable in this space. And if there are any questions that come up, you know, they can contact the surgeon and they can have that dialogue as far as what would make the most sense. And it goes beyond some of those modalities, right? It's also nutrition and supplementation and medications, postoperatively, pain control, bowel support, hydration status, I mean, all of those things are factors that you wanna think about.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Yeah, I think it's, it can be hard for people, especially because if people are wanting to use like insurance and it can be hard to find like the dream, you know, doctor who can do the surgery and also be really knowledgeable on all of these more holistic approaches that people can be doing.

So going back to what you were saying you do a lot of in your clinic with the injections, you said, is it stem cells, exosomes? What type? Is it actually stem cells?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
We do stem cells, exosomes, PRP, PRF.

Melanie Avalon
So what's the latest on the stem cell legality situation?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
That's a good question. You know, this language around whether or not stem cells are legal or illegal I think is not really the right verbiage.

There are FDA approved pathways to utilize stem cell products and they are available here in the United States. You don't have to travel abroad to get stem cell products. But you know, there are certain requirements and tissue handling and tissue, you know, practices that need to be utilized that's overseen by the FDA. And as long as you're following suit and following those guidelines, you're well within the means to utilize stem cell products, exosome products for tissue repair for treating patients.

Melanie Avalon
And what do you see the timeline of healing or resolving of pain with these approaches? So I actually, I've had one stem cell treatment. I did something to my knee, I guess in like 2021 maybe. And the pain just, it was really bad at the beginning. And then it was just kind of chronic, like it would act up, especially if I wore heels or it just always, yeah, it would act up essentially.

And I got a stem cell injection like directly into it. And the thing that's hard for me to gauge is I can confidently say now that it's gone. Like it doesn't flare up. I don't feel it anymore. But it's hard for me to know if it would have been gone anyways because of the time.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
That's so good, yeah, you're exactly right and so I guess your question is like what is the expected timeframe for resolution of pain or symptoms for some of these issues and certainly it depends primarily on what the initial injury or what the pathology is. As we talked about earlier, in acute injury, you sprain your ankle, I'm expecting that to get better with time as long as we give it the right environment and we can try to augment that to speed it up but as we've all experienced, you get an acute injury and hopefully that heals well with time.

Then on the other end of the spectrum, you may have an injury or something just kind of gradually starts to bother you and before you know it, it's been a couple years and you try some therapy, it doesn't work and now it's five years and it just keeps lingering and you kind of try to do some measures but nothing seems to be working and those are where it gets a little bit more complicated because when you run into these degenerative conditions, you know we talked about arthritis earlier, these are conditions where the cartilage is starting to wear down, the tendon is getting a little bit more frayed and thick and tender and these types of injuries are really the ones that are more challenging to deal with and it's no secret that there hasn't been and you mentioned the traditional healthcare space, there have not been great tools to try to help these conditions. We have steroid which is great, again just like the anti-inflammatories, it's going to reduce the inflammation, it's going to reduce pain and you're going to feel great but it offers no regenerative capacity and it does not allow for, it certainly doesn't offer anything from a regenerative standpoint.

So when we think about how we're going to approach these chronic conditions, we have to say, you know this is a little bit more, it's going to take a little bit more time to reduce the pain and to improve function and it's not the same approach that has historically been where I'm going to reduce pain and you're going to feel better tomorrow. No, this is going to take some time, we're going to have to invest into this a little bit again thinking about all of the multifactorial ways in which we can approach this, lifestyle intervention, etc.

But when you look at the research out there around different regenerative products, the outcomes seem to peak around six months. So it's again, it's not a quick fix, it's something that takes time.

And when you look back historically at these patients that have been suffering with pain for five years, ten years, when they have improvement in symptoms immediately after, not immediately but you know three to six months after a procedure, you can directly correlate that to the procedure that was done because most of the time these patients have tried everything that's available and have not had sustained relief. And now the studies are going out to three years, five years and even seven years where you're seeing that persistence of pain reduction and improvement in function.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
So you're starting to see the long-term benefits of these as well.

So that's what's exciting about this because it's allowing for long-term healing, long-term pain reduction, long-term improvement in function and not just the quick pain relief that is seen or the alternative being a surgical intervention, you're not seeing that same sort of potential and healing in those spaces that you are with the regenerative techniques that we have.

Melanie Avalon
Actually, so hearing all that, that's really, you've really got me thinking because like with my injury experience, it was, it was probably a probably a year of the chronic, you know, flaring pain, and then doing the stem cell. And then, you know, six months later, it basically being gone, but also not knowing if it would have been gone either way.

But I actually just pulled up, I totally forgot about this, we did do a scan of my knee. And they saw because you when this was when you mentioned like the cartilage going away, they meant they saw that that was degenerating where the injury was. I just looked at my, I mentioned earlier the genetic, you know, tendency for arthritis, and it segments it into knee arthritis, hip arthritis and wrist arthritis, and knee arthritis is the one I have like a super high risk for. So I'm just thinking about it retroactively. And I feel like I got that injury, it looks like genetically, I'm very prone to knee arthritis, and I was definitely headed in that direction. And then I mean, if I don't experience it at all anymore, I should get a, well, I don't know what the radiation of that, I would be curious if the cartilage has changed or reversed.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that would be interesting and that's where things are really starting to get exciting from the regenerative medicine space because like I said, when we look at outcomes, a majority of the outcomes, the ones that we really care about is if I can improve your pain and improve your function, right? Because that allows you to live the life you want.

Now secondarily, there are studies out there that look at pre and post ultrasound or pre and post MRI, which is what you're referring to is like what would happen if I repeated the MRI? Would there be any significant change in the thickness of that cartilage that was noted earlier? And studies are showing that, that there's improvement in cartilage thickness and where there were cartilage lesions, they're resolved and that's where things are really exciting and that again shows you the potential, the power that these treatments have and again contrast that with a corticosteroid injection, which can actually be catabolic and actually worsen some of the cartilage that you have there.

So that would be interesting. If it's an MRI, it wouldn't be any significant radiation, actually zero radiation because it's just an MRI. So it's magnetic, it's not the radiation that you experience with the CT or X-rays. So if you wanted to do that, you should feel comfortable doing that.

Melanie Avalon
I wonder, because the initial scan I got, I got at the Urgent Care, would those type of places have an MRI machine?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
No, they're usually CT scanners or x-rays, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so I'm actually I'm very curious now. Okay.

And then for listeners, I will put a link in the show notes. I've done a few episodes entirely just on stem cells. And it's so fascinating the the healing potential with those. Do you do them like for yourself to yourself?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yes, I've had, oh my gosh, so I've had knee injuries, you know, these are the injuries that put me in the physical therapy office and that stimulated my medical career, but I've had MCL and meniscal injuries on both sides. I'm dealing with a meniscal injury on my left side that fortunately for me doesn't cause any significant pain or, you know, functional limitations.

So I'm fortunate on that front, but I am very active in trying to prevent that from giving me any problems in the future.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, and do you find the patient success rate, does it work for most people? Some people, does it not?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, we're getting good results. Our patients are regularly coming to us and saying how they've improved. So again, but it's not immediate. We have to give it time.

We have to invest into it. And you have to be proactive in supporting your stem cell therapy with all of the other additional factors. And so that's where we get the best outcomes. But it does take time. Patients usually don't experience anything in the first couple weeks. You're kind of thinking, okay, not seeing a whole lot, but just things gradually improve with time. And I have a unique approach to the way I deliver stem cells, partnering it with PRP and kind of leading up again to kind of improve the environment for which stem cells are introduced. But in looking back patients, we have a really good success rate with stem cell therapy across the board. We treat a lot of knees. You mentioned that knee osteoarthritis is probably the number one condition we see. And it responds very well to stem cell therapy.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, okay. And I'm looking at the recommendations for the knee arthritis in the in my genetic report and it's telling me not to wear high heels which are like my favorite thing.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
That's a challenge.

Melanie Avalon
I know. Do you work with a lot of women, men, like the population? Yeah, both, both. Do you tell the women not to wear high heels?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
You know, unfortunately, that is a challenging one. Sometimes it's knee and sometimes it's ankle foot, you know, they can really start to cause some discomfort of the foot. Obviously, footwear is important. You know, we have to choose our battles and we all have our, you know, vices.

So, you know, it's not that I'm trying to change anybody's appearance or try to change people's lifestyle, you know, you're doing the best you can. And we have to make there's a give and take there, you know, so I try to meet patients where they're at and say, you know, if this is what you want, we just have to acknowledge that these are the potential. Consequences of that and, you know, patients are reasonable and they say, you know, okay, I can expect them. I can accept that this is might not be the best thing for me, but I'm willing to make that sacrifice and address, you know, deal with the consequences after that. And that's fair.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I feel like my approach, you know, if I was in a position where I was wearing them every single day, I think I would definitely want to rethink that. I typically just go out like once a week though.

So I feel like the happiness that I get from wearing the high heels, you know, brings some benefit to my life. So.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and those are the exactly those are the give and take that we give so that's that's that's okay

Melanie Avalon
Also, another question, actually, no, really quickly, so the PRP, what layer does that add to it?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
So, the thing about, let's take knee osteoarthritis, for example, this is a great example of a space that is a chronic inflammatory state. If you sample the synovium of arthritic knees, the pH is low, so it's an acidic environment. It has a lot of cytokines that are pro-inflammatory, so these are signaling molecules that are continuing to stimulate that inflammatory response that we talked about, right? This low-grade inflammation that's persistent, it's not getting better, it's not going away.

Things like interferon gamma and TNF alpha, and these things are pro-inflammatory, and they're immediately toxic to stem cells. And so, when I think about treating a patient and I want to do a stem cell injection, if I want to get the maximal benefit from those stem cells, I don't want to put them in an environment to be interfered with from an inflammatory and low pH environment that's going to, you know, they have enough to deal with, I don't want to make an, I don't want to introduce them to an environment that makes their job difficult and can actually be toxic to them. And so, by prepping the joint, by utilizing PRP in a series of injections, I can actually reduce the inflammation in that joint because we know that PRP, which stands for platelet skin, and reduce some of that inflammation and improve the pH, reduce some of those inflammatory cytokines, and that helps to prepare the joint to receive a stem cell injection so that the stem cells can go to the area to regenerate tissue, right? And so, I utilize this regularly with my patients where we'll do a series of one, two, sometimes three PRP injections until we feel like we were able to calm the joint down. We can reduce some of the swelling, the swelling that may have been recurrent previously is now calmed down, and now we can introduce a stem cell to allow them to go to the sites of injury, to the sites of damage, and just focus all of their efforts into that space rather than having to overcome a toxic environment. So, that's how I use PRP and or PRF, you know, platelet-rich plasma versus platelet-rich fibrin, those are things that I use in advance of a stem cell therapy to really maximize the potential benefit of a stem cell injection.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so is it basically getting rid of the distracting inflammatory signaling that might occur and then just going to the inflammatory signaling that needs to be addressed?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, exactly. So the stem cells can go to areas of damaged tissue, and it's not just the inflammation that signals, but it's the damage, the sites of the areas that are exposed that should not be exposed, and the stem cells can see that, and they can go to those areas to stimulate the regenerative process. But if it's an inflammatory state that's just widespread and throughout, again, that is just directly toxic to the stem cells. So if you get X number of stem cells injected, you can reduce that by 50% almost immediately because of the toxic environment that you've been introduced into.

So your army is not as big, and the potential is not as great.

Melanie Avalon
Gotcha, that completely makes sense because I guess, ironically, you wouldn't want to get rid of all the inflammation because then the stem cells, you know, wouldn't necessarily go anywhere potentially. So, okay, very, very cool.

Actually, so another question, just looking more at your bio because you, so you currently do training with Olympic lifting and racing triathlons?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, I try. As I mentioned, I try to maintain my identity as an athlete. My focus has shifted from being in college where it was all about performance on the field and trying to be fast, jump high and explosive and that sort of deal. Now it's been to the whole health and wellness side where I'm focusing on what are the metrics that are going to help me be healthy and live long. There's a period of time where I was freshly out of college and the only workouts I knew how to do were the ones that I had been doing in college for the last four years. I didn't really have a focus. It's like, what is my purpose of trying to rep 225 pounds? Yes, there's a strength component and a muscular endurance component, but it wasn't until later that I started to realize that there are markers of longevity and there are objective measures and things that I should really focus in on. It was great for me because now I had a framework to work with. I knew what the new metrics were that I can hone in after to support my health and longevity. That's my focus of training now.

That does overlap a bit. I do some power training still because I want to maintain explosiveness and type 2 fiber, density. Those are the things that I continue to implement in my workout regimen, but also recognizing I was never a long distance athlete at all ever in my life. Football plays are measured in seconds. Thinking about doing a 5K or 10K or triathlon was never really on my radar, but I recognize that there's health benefits from that, from doing sustained long endurance training. I got into doing some triathlons and I've done a couple marathons in my life. I've learned the importance and recognized the importance of implementing that into my exercise regimen, so I try to cover both ends of those spectrums. Again, just thinking about longevity and just overall health.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Well, I'm the same in that I lean more towards power, not endurance.

And actually, my genetic test also said that I was on the power side of things. So doing all with all this training, because you mentioned earlier that you personally practice intermittent fasting, what type of fasting window do you do?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, so I do once a week I do a 24 hour fast and then quarterly I do a 72 hour fast water only.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, with that once a week, 24 hour fast, is there any specific rules or how do you time it around your athletic endeavors?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, so it's on my day off. I usually do my last meal Friday night and then won't eat again until Saturday night and I don't typically work out on Saturday. So that's what I do.

Sometimes I will change, because breakfast is my favorite meal, I will change to eat breakfast on Saturday morning and then not eat again until Sunday morning. And again, I'm usually not training or doing much around that. If I do train, I try to focus only on a long endurance, usually like a zone two type of exercise because I'm getting into that ketosis and I'm trying to stimulate fatty acid oxidation. And so I pair those up to try to enhance my ability to mobilize fatty acids and to utilize the fatty acid oxidation aspect. So I don't do a whole lot of high intensity strength training or power training in those realms when I'm doing my fast.

Melanie Avalon
Okay and then major question for you because we get this all the time. So when you are doing the type of training to build muscle, how soon do you need to eat protein after working out?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, so that depends on how long you've been working out and how long you've been taken in your high protein meals because your body can adapt. When you're newly into exercise regimens and newly into paying attention to your nutritional side of that, the impact is greater by consuming your protein closer to the workout.

But your ability to consume and absorb and utilize the amino acids that you consume in your diet are improved with a more regular exercise regimen. So the more you work out, the more consistent you are in your exercise regimen, your ability to utilize and absorb protein is improved for longer periods of time. So it's not as important to take in within the first hour or first two hours. I still try to do that because I work out in the morning and then I'm going to get a big breakfast before I head out to work. So that's my rhythm and how I do it. But it's not as important, the more trained you are, but if you're early on to the exercise world and you're starting a new exercise regimen, then taking in a good slug of protein shortly after within that first hour is going to be ideal.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, yes, we get that question all the time. Awesome, well, is there anything else?

And for listeners, this is so exciting. You can actually get 50% off a consult with Dr. Meadows at his practice. If you go to ifpodcast.com slash clinic5c, so that's ifpodcast.com slash clinic, the number five, the letter C. So thank you so much. What is the purpose of these consults? So is this for what type of people should come to you for this? Like what type of issues?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yes, great. Thank you for that.

A consult with me in the regenerative medicine space can be anything from an orthopedic-related condition, it could be autoimmune conditions, it could be any questions you might have surrounding the potential utilization of regenerative technology, stem cells, PRP, et cetera, to support the healing process of whatever you may be dealing with. And so a predominant, a good portion of my practice is in the orthopedic space, but we're recognizing how impactful these tools are being across the board of different diagnoses, neuronal health, cognitive impairment, that's what we started off with. Again, autoimmune processes, which I think is going to be the next big area in which stem cells are going to be beneficial for because of their immune modulating capacity.

So it could be across any of those. And again, I can kind of help patients guide them in the direction of what potential therapies there are out there. And again, we talked about some of the protocols, both pre and post-operative. So anything amongst those different avenues, I'm certainly here to available help.

Melanie Avalon
Amazing. And are those consults done virtually? Can they be done virtually?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
They can be virtually or if you're in the area in person, we offer both.

Melanie Avalon
And if people want to work with you, is any of that virtual or are they going to need to come in person?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
If there's any treatment that's recommended that we offer, of course, that's going to be in person, I certainly can offer the insight that I have into lifestyle management or adjustment treatment ideas that I would have. But if there's any sort of, of course, we talked about diagnostic ultrasound and ultrasound guided procedures, if any of that is recommended, I can certainly point you in the right direction if you're not able to travel up here.

But otherwise, if you're interested in me personally doing any of that, then of course, we'd have to do a little bit of traveling, but hopefully not too bad.

Melanie Avalon
And anything else? Thank you so much, Dr. Meadows. This has been so amazing, just so enlightening.

Is there anything else you wanted to touch on from your practice or especially, you know, with you what you were saying earlier in the show about how important education is to you? Just anything that you would like to educate our audience on?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Well, I'm just excited to be here. I am thankful that I have the platform to continue to talk about stem cell therapies and regenerative medicine. I think it's a growing area of interest and a growing area of science, and I'm excited that I have the opportunity to share that with your audience here, and I'm grateful to have the opportunity to chat with you.

We've covered a lot of ground. There's still so much that we can chat about, but I think we talked about a lot of stuff here, and I'm grateful to have had the opportunity.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, this was so, so wonderful. I'm just so, so grateful for everything that you're doing because like I was saying throughout the show, it's, it's really hard to, it can be hard for people to find, you know, sources where they can actually, you know, make change and what they're experiencing, especially when it comes to pain in their body and your approach is just incredible. It's fantastic. Thank you for everything that you're doing.

And yes, so again, so listeners, these show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast.com slash episode 438. And those show notes will have a transcript. They'll have links to everything that we talked about. And again, you can get 50% off a consultation with Dr. Meadows and check out his clinic's website when you go to ifpodcast.com slash clinic5c. All right. Well, thank you, Dr. Meadows. Are there any other links you want to put out there?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, so you can go to our website clinic5c.com. I am also on Instagram, meadows.md, so you can follow me there as well.

And so you can also connect with me. I'm on there pretty regularly. I chat with patients and answer questions there as well. So there's a couple areas that you can get some more information.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Well, we will put that on the show notes. Thank you so much for your time and we will talk again in the future.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Look forward to it. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Sep 01

Episode 437 – How To Know If Fat Adapted, Fasting Benefits Disappearing, Long Term Vs Short Term Benefits Of IF, Fasting “Dumping” Problems, Changing Windows For Plateaus, Long Term IF, And More!

⁠Physiology, Gastrocolic Reflex

Welcome to Episode 437 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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⁠⁠If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 437 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 437 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad
Hey, Mel, I'm doing really, really good. I'm good.

I am looking out right now at the most incredible view of New York City. I'm sitting here, just really grateful that I'm in my new home. And yeah, just adapting to having been here long as you know, so just getting used to life here and feeling just very grateful at the moment. Like that's just truthfully how I feel, like a lot of gratitude and just excited for what's to come the next chapter, you know.

Melanie Avalon
I'm so excited for you. I can't wait till we're in the same room.

Barry Conrad
It's going to happen. Are you going to freak out when you finally, when we finally meet in person?

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I think you need to come see a show at the Fox.

Barry Conrad
Okay, listeners, this is a thing pretty much on a weekly basis. Melanie's like, hey, I'm going to this, this is, do you want to come? Hey, I've got tickets to this. Do you want to come?

She's always inviting me to these shows. They're great though, right?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, wait, I get great. Can I invite you to something that I just got tickets for? That's so random. What is it?

It's in, I think it's in August. It's OK. What's it called? It's called. OK, wait, let me let me find it. I was like, do I buy these tickets? Yes. Hold on. Let me. OK, it is called. It's called. And I quote. We call it Cabaret. Dracula dance show in the moonlight. It's like a cabaret retelling of Dracula.

Barry Conrad
Wow. Okay. That kind of sounds...

Melanie Avalon
I think it's like a touring thing. Oh, shout out to one of the coolest apps. And oh, Barry, now that you're in the US, you can get it. You should download the Fever app if you don't have it.

Barry Conrad
Is that what kind of app is it? It sounds like a dating app sort of.

Melanie Avalon
It could be a dating app. It's not a dating app.

It basically shows really cool, unique shows and experiences and things that you can do that are in your city. And it's always stuff that's there for like a limited time. And a lot of it, you can only get the tickets on the fever app. So like the candlelight concert series, oh, that I'm excited about I went to like a Taylor Swift candlelight concert thing. But they do all these different covers of music. So like next week, I'm going to a candlelight concert series for Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones music.

Barry Conrad
That sounds awesome, actually. That sounds epic.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I'm excited. There's a Hans Zimmer one I want to go to.

They'll do like pop music though, like Beyonce, stuff like that. That's like a thing, but they're on the fever app. But the fever app will also have things like, for a while they had like the Bridgerton experience where it's like a party, but it's like Bridgerton. Like that's where I found this cabaret. We call it cabaret, Dracula dance show in the moonlight.

Barry Conrad
It's actually sounds like a very Melanie coded show this but I don't know why something about that's the title and probably like potentially what the theme will be like how people go dress that you can have a special after this.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I gotta figure I guess I have to wear red. I feel like I have to wear red.

I want to show you Can I send a link on here? I'm gonna show you the artwork for it listeners I sent Barry a picture and it looks really intense. Would you say?

Barry Conrad
look full really intense is kind of putting it mildly. It looks, they're really committed to what they're, you know, putting down. I can't wait to hear how it is, what your view is.

Melanie Avalon
And this is one of the things where, because I buy tickets for shows, like so many shows way ahead of time. So I bought two tickets and I was like, well, we'll see if I can find somebody to go with me to this.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, you haven't, you have noticed you can, you've like last minute gone to shows so many times, I'm sure that you can find someone.

Melanie Avalon
Find the people, yeah. So, okay, what brought this up? What were we talking about?

Barry Conrad
We're talking about, yeah, how did this come up?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, the fox that you need to come see a show here at the Fox theater the next show I'm seeing at the Fox's Book of Mormon want to come?

Barry Conrad
I've actually never seen that. You know what, Melanie, I'm putting it out there.

You need to be like an investor for the Fox because you always, you're always promoting how awesome they are. They need to give you like a lifetime pass to all their shows or something.

Melanie Avalon
I actually agree. I don't normally like to ask for things, but I feel like the amount of promotion I do for them. Yeah, it's just a stunning theater. It's stunning.

Barry Conrad
Really?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it used to be a mosque originally, then they turned into a theater. Oh, and it also originally was a movie house, like a movie palace.

It opened in the 1920s, but it's like, oh, it's an Egyptian, like, architecture and stuff. So the ceiling is like stars.

Barry Conrad
It sounds very Melanie, like you would love it, which you do. When I come to Atlanta, not if maybe if it times with the time of week, usually Friday, Saturday, Sunday shows or any, any day.

Melanie Avalon
any day.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. If it's times with the show, that's good. We may have to, as long as we can squeeze in like a good meal and that's obviously number one, like food.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, wait, wait, really? Wait, what that's your priority? Number one.

Barry Conrad
So if you go like the wrong part is okay, or it could be like, on the same night, we could do like a dinner drinks and go.

Melanie Avalon
Let me pitch you. Are you ready? Are you ready? So the Fox Theatre, the marquee club, I told you about the marquee club, right? So basically, okay, because you know, normally, like when you go to a show, it's like a little bit stressful, because you have to like hurry. And it's usually not like cheap, cheap concessions. And there's lines at the bathroom. And it's just kind of like stressful situation a little bit.

So at the Fox, they converted a nightclub next door into this attached marquee club. It's three stories. It has three bars, really fancy food. So like, and it's stunning as well. And so you can eat, you can drink, it's like a whole thing. So you could get you could get a lot of food, like good food.

Barry Conrad
Well, that sounds really good. I'm about that. Okay, sold. Sold. Okay. The pitch worked. Success.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, thank you. That was my goal. So, yeah, so how are things with you?

Barry Conrad
Your reaction is really funny. He's like, what? That's your priority? Like you sounded really like disappointed. He's like, that's your priority. Not the job.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, actually, there are a lot of really good restaurants here, and I know some really good ones that we should go to for sure.

Barry Conrad
Another thing that I'd love to share is I've, and this is maybe a bit late, but I have started my first newsletter.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, that's cool. I'm gonna sign up, how do I sign up?

Barry Conrad
You go to Barricorn at official.com and basically it's called the BC triple shot. So the concept is I serve up three hits to kickstart your week. So that's what's new, what I'm loving and what's on my mind.

And that can include things like health and fitness tips, insights, lifestyle fuel, you know, a bit of motivation and also a bit of updated when I'm doing career-wise, so it's just really short every week straight to your inbox from me. So.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Okay. So how do I sign up? I don't see.

Barry Conrad
So if you go to barryconradoffices.com and then click on the BC triple shot, there should be a...

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I see.

Barry Conrad
And then it'll tell you, have put it in like the URL, barricornadofficial.com slash speciejawshot.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so let me just drop her email here. Yeah. I'm signing up right now.

Barry Conrad
Oh, in real time, how good is that?

Melanie Avalon
in real time. Sign me up for this man. Here I go.

Barry Conrad
I just kind of thought it's a way to get closer with my audience as well and share some things that I might not get to share on social media all the time, so, you know.

Melanie Avalon
It's good. Serve me that BC triple shot. Yes. Click. Fresh delivery coming right up this Sunday. Yes.

Barry Conrad
Pressure's on now because Melanie's gonna be reading it

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, Sunday. I'm ready. Okay. Awesome. Cool. Congrats.

Barry Conrad
Thank you. And what about you? How's your day? How's your week? What's new with you? How are you?

Melanie Avalon
I'm good. I'm really excited because I have lit I have been cultivating the most magical fairy garden in my apartment and I can't cannot even express the magic of this magical fairy garden.

Yes, I'm going to send you a picture on Instagram. And I have a funny story about it. So okay, the picture I send you it's missing because I just deconstructed one of the things I'm actually going to plant strawberries in the empty, the empty unit in the front. Okay, I sent it to you. Oh, wow. Mel doesn't it look like look like a magical fairy garden? Can you see the flowers are climbing up my window? That's that looks awesome. Actually, and so funny story or true story. So the plant, if you're looking at, like on the right, there's like this girl statue thing. So the unit right behind that the shorter unit that's lit up, it has green plants in it. So my story about this is those are sunflowers, that's a sunflower. And I thought it said five to eight inches was how tall the plant I thought this was like little sunflowers, then I realized no, it's it said five to eight feet. What? So that that sunflower. So then I was like, Wait a minute. I don't know if that unit can handle a eight foot flower.

Barry Conrad
It's actually kind of funny because it's very also like a tall flower. It reminds me of like it's very fairy tale-esque like someone climbing up a tree. You know what I mean? It's very.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, an eight foot flower. That is so tall. So now it's already it's it's past it's past the light. So now I'm I'm just directing it. So I basically when I found that out, I'm I'm sorry, but I had I killed all the other ones because I was like, we can only this unit can only support maybe one flower.

And now I'm directing it to kind of like directing. Like trying to get it to grow like, towards the, the window. But I have another theory. So if you also look in the picture, you can see that. So I have this one tall unit for listeners that has petunias in it. And they're very tall. And they're growing up my windows. And they're pretty, then the other the unit next to it. It was called the hummingbird collection. I don't know. It looked really pretty. I had like 30 different flowers all pink. But what's in what's what's been happening? It's just this one plant that's growing. But it's growing. Do you see how it's only on it's like on the side. So I wish you could see it in real life. It's aggressively growing that direction. And Danielle, I think you'll figure it out. We think it's growing away from the petunias. Like we think it doesn't like the petunias.

Barry Conrad
What's the solution? What are you going to do? Are you going to try to direct it or?

Melanie Avalon
I don't know but it's just interesting to look at it because I wish you could see it like I said in person because they're like aggressively growing like it's like they're running away. So I don't think my flowers get along.

Barry Conrad
That's really funny. What happens if you want them to clash? What do you want to happen?

Melanie Avalon
I don't know. I just don't know why they're not friends, but they're not friends.

Barry Conrad
Well, looking at this photo, I can see it could be bad, could be tricky.

Melanie Avalon
I'm going to take Austin to a close-up photo later so you can see how aggressively they're running away because it's like very obvious. I thought they were trying to run towards some light but there's no light they're running towards so IDK.

Barry Conrad
Is that statue meant to symbolize you like you're kind of not, you know, harvesting.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, so these statue, okay, I am so happy about these statues. So my mom, we were going through like heirloom stuff when we got to pick out things. And my mom had these two they're called Yadro, the the name of the brand. They're like vintage, beautiful statues. And so I love these I they've been they've been like in our house since I was little, like as long as I can remember. And she let me have them. And so they're my they're beautiful. They're my little Yeah, my little statues.

Barry Conrad
so that you've held on to them for a long time.

Melanie Avalon
Well, my mom has, but I kind of just inherited them. Like I picked them out. Well, that's cool.

Barry Conrad
Definitely suits the motif, like the vibe of the fairytale garden.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so you should come to Atlanta and check out my fairy tale garden.

Barry Conrad
It's like a far good good walking. It's like welcome to my garden walk. There's lots of red light. There's a garden there Amazing it looks awesome though. So good

Melanie Avalon
Do you have indoor plants in your apartment?

Barry Conrad
Not yet. Actually no, I've got not like yours or not going to say yes because it's way more basic than that's not like a eight foot situation, but I've got a couple here. Want to get some more?

Melanie Avalon
I cannot recommend enough the amazingness of bringing plants like to listeners into your they clean the air, they bring a good a good vibe, a good spirit. I'm all about it.

And there's a lot that are really easy to take care of like money trees, Barry, now that you're in the US. Oh, is there a Whole Foods by you?

Barry Conrad
Oh, I haven't gotten that fire, but tomorrow I'm going to be exploring. So tomorrow I'll be looking at where the closest Whole Foods is.

I'm, ah, I'm finally in the States. So I can go to Whole Foods and see these scallops.

Melanie Avalon
See the scallops, the wine, and I love the Whole Foods plant department kills me. Like I just go in and I just like sit there and I just buy plants. I'm so bad with buying plants.

Barry Conrad
Can you actually write me like a list of your favorite things at Whole Foods that I need to try? Because that just will cut out like me trying to figure it out.

You can just say this, you have to try this. Food, da da da.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Oh my goodness.

Barry Conrad
I love that. Melanie's List, Mel's faves, I don't know, whatever you want to call it.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Shall we jump into some fasting stuff?

Barry Conrad
Let's jump into some fasting stuff. Do you have a study?

Melanie Avalon
I do, so I found a study, are you ready for this title? That is, you can tell it's like clickbaity. I don't know, I think it's clickbaity. Let's hear it.

The metabolic effects of intermittent fasting in patient with type two diabetes exist in the short term but disappear after its discontinuation. A systemic review and meta analysis of randomized controlled trials. The reason this is clickbaity is because it's not even true. It is true, but they found that they found with intermittent fasting and type two diabetic patients that some of the benefits happen in the short term and some happen in the long term. So, and then vice versa. So they make it sound like you only get short term benefits from fasting and then they're completely gone when you stop, which is not exactly what they found. And also if you, I don't think that should be that shocking that if you stop fasting, the benefits are not gonna last forever. Like it's not like you can, I don't know, like who's promising that, you know.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, who's selling that?

Melanie Avalon
So, what this study found, the way it starts is they say, we hypothesize that IF is non-inferior to other dietary control methods. So in other words, that it's, I don't know, it's weird, it's weird, weird wording. I'll just read the whole sentence. Okay, so we hypothesize that IF is non-inferior to other dietary control methods, including continuous energy restriction, standard diet, Mediterranean diet, and ad libitum diet in terms of both short-term and long-term metabolic impacts in patients with type 2 diabetes.

So basically, it's a meta-analysis. They looked at quite a few different studies, and in the end, it was a total of 966 participants. This is important to note. They said substantial hetero-genaity, hetero-genaity, the studies were heterogeneous. And why this is important is the fact that they're pointing it out means it was probably pretty heterogeneous. So basically, it's not like all the studies were saying the same thing. The studies were finding different things. But then when you average it together, you get the findings that you find. So not all the studies found the same thing. But what did they find? So this is patients with type 2 diabetes, and they classified short-term intermittent fasting as less than three months, and long-term as more than three months. And they found that short-term fasting only decreased fasting blood sugar. So in the short-term, less than three months. Oh, and all the things they looked at. Let me tell you all the things they looked at. So they were looking at HbA1c, fasting blood sugar, weight, BMI, fat mass, fat-free mass, LDL, body fat, insulin, blood pressure, total cholesterol, and triglycerides. So that's a lot of things that they were looking at. So the findings were that short-term, less than three months, only decreased fasting blood sugar.

In the long-term, so more than three months, it could improve HbA1c and weight. And then in the short term, it also had metabolic benefits of HbA1c, but it was transient, and then fasting blood sugar as well. And they said IF cannot maintain the metabolic effects after its discontinuation, which is greater than three months, a little bit longer, because that was the highlights they pointed out. But the full thing they said was, in patients with type 2 diabetes, and some of this contradicts, that's why I'm a little bit confused. In patients with type 2 diabetes, IF significantly decreases HbA1c, fasting, blood glucose, weight, BMI, fat mass, fat-free mass, and LDL in the short term. It significantly increases HDL, which is a good thing. However, it has no significant effect on fasting insulin, body fat, blood pressure, total cholesterol, and triglycerides. That's for the short term. Intermittent fasting does not show long-term metabolic benefits, which is so weird, because earlier they said that it affected weight and HbA1c. After a discontinuing IF for a period of more than three months, there are no significant changes in HbA1c and weight, even though they conclude that it does affect weight. Literally, it is so confusing.

Melanie Avalon
And I read the whole thing, and I went through, I think what I want to draw... Okay, here's the conclusion. Let's see what they say in the conclusion.

The results of our meta-analysis partially confirmed our hypothesis, demonstrating that IF significantly improved HbA1c, fasting, blood, sugar, and body weight in the short term compared to other dietary interventions. However, these benefits disappeared after its discontinuation. Meanwhile, our findings revealed another important conclusion. Long-term IF led to statistically significant benefits in HbA1c and body weight that were not achieved with short-term intermittent fasting. This suggests that sustained adherence to IF may yield benefits beyond those observed in shorter durations, therefore continuing long-term IF may provide more lasting metabolic benefits.

Okay, so basically, I'm guessing why it's confusing is what it looks like. Is that in the studies where it improved HbA1c in the short term compared to other diets, when they stopped, it did not continue. But in the studies where they were longer term, it was found that it helped HbA1c and body weight, even though it didn't have that effect in the short term. Literally there's so much contradiction in the study, I don't even know what to do with it. And what they also acknowledge is they said that it could be a reason that they didn't have long-term benefits was because of compliance. So basically, people might be able to do IF in the short term and see the benefits. But then as they keep going, they don't comply and so the benefits go away.

But what's interesting about that is then it's not even really testing if you get the benefits in the long-term because we don't know that the people are adhering to it. So it's difficult to make a statement like there aren't long-term benefits when we're not even certain if people were adhering to even make that statement in the first place. I basically walked away so confused from this. I was like, okay, so some things seem to benefit in the short term, some benefit in the long term, some in the short term, but not long term, but long term, but not short term, literally, it's literally so confusing.

And then the conclusion of it, how they conclude it is that the benefits exist in the short term, but disappear after you stop, which isn't what they even found throughout the whole thing. They found it sometimes, but not always. So now I'm confusing myself even more, but this concept, what are your thoughts on this? Like benefits disappearing and...

Barry Conrad
first of all, it's awesome study and also really contradicts itself. I mean, from what I get gathered in the short term, in under the three months, the early winds of the fasting blood sugar situation, and then some improvements in the HPA1C, but it's not surprising to me with the weight, you know, because some people might take a really long time to get fat adapted and actually get used to fasting. Like it doesn't, some people, it happens quickly. And some people, it takes quite a while. So it's not surprising to me that the weight loss, for example, was seen when people adhered longer, like to, like that to me makes sense. And it also makes sense to me that benefits would, quote unquote, like, you know, drop off or stop after stopping intermittent fasting. That also is not a surprise to me. So I'm not too sure why they're saying that as well. But then also contradicting, I don't know. Yeah, it was quite confusing some of the information.

But the basis of what I'm hearing is like, yeah, the longer you stick with it, you're going to see more benefits. You know, essentially, I'm curious, though, like how, how old were the participants? And did it specify if they were male or female?

Melanie Avalon
And now I'm just thinking about it more. I don't know why you would even comment on HPA1C in the short term that's less than three months because it typically takes three months to see a change in HPA1C. So that's actually kind of confusing that they would even look at that for the less than three months.

And I found another clarification about the weight. So it said, our analysis showed that I have regimens, time restricted eating and fasting mimicking diet and do significant weight loss. One study reported that weight loss achieved by IF may be attributable to individuals failing to fully compensate for the caloric deficit associated with IF during non-fasting periods. Our analysis showed that long duration IF more than three months resulted in significant weight loss where short duration less than three months did not. Although greater weight loss with IF was observed and the majority of the included studies during follow-up, the long-term benefits of IF on body weight remained insignificant. So you were asking about who was included, the population. Let me...

Barry Conrad
Even like the ages and even like the male or female, because I'd imagine like age would definitely play a role in what there was finding and seeing. So I wonder how they regulate like, like what, yeah, what ages they were.

Melanie Avalon
Here it is. It was adults with type 2 diabetes who were over 18 and there were no restrictions on sex, ethnicity, or BMI. Let's see if they say what it ended up actually being. It looks like they don't answer it.

You have to look at every single individual study and look at the percentage of females and it looks to be about 50-50.

Barry Conrad
And did they, I can't remember if you mentioned if they had like a specific protocol of fasting, like how many hours or was it 16a? Was it an ADF?

Melanie Avalon
It covered different types. So they had time restricted eating. So that's like doing like a 16-8 or restricting your eating window every day, fasting mimicking diets, and then periodic fasting. Okay, here's how they defined it. So they defined time restricted eating as a complete fasting, no calorie intake for at least 12 hours per day with free feeding for the rest of the day daily. Fasting mimicking diet was the calorie restricted five-day nutritional program with or without periodosity. Periodosity, I haven't actually used that word before. And then periodic fasting was, this sounds like more like ADF and stuff, cyclical feeding pattern that entails fasting, 25% or less of required calories, doing that one to two days per week with free feeding for the remaining days. Yes. So that's the different types that they covered.

So basically all the different types that people do. Oh, oh, oh, wait, intervent and other regimens. So there might have been other things as well.

Barry Conrad
But that's also like, so that can be quite abstract because, you know.

Melanie Avalon
and they excluded pregnant or breastfeeding women and they excluded patients with type one diabetes, eating disorders, liver disease, other pathologies. It was only randomized controlled trials though and yeah, that's quite a few different studies.

Barry Conrad
The gist of what I got from that, it came off making a lot of claims, but the variables aren't very specific or like when you said other protocols or other methods or whatnot. And yeah, it doesn't seem very as controlled or you know what I mean?

And then to make sort of like bigger claims like that and contradicting itself, it was kind of confusing to understand, but what I can take away from it as a positive is I guess the longer you stick to intermittent fasting, you're going to see more benefits anyway. I mean, obviously it's not a, it's a no brainer to me that if you did a short term and then stopped that the benefits would subside along with that. You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
I mean, the fact that they literally said that it's very heterogeneous in the studies, it kind of makes sense that there seems to be a lot of contradictions because it sounds like the studies themselves were not easily painting any one picture. So this basically was just like a, it was a lot of statistics and data that they were doing by analyzing things.

They did find, I'm just reading their conclusion again. Also interesting, so like they say, for example, no statistically significant reductions brought about by IF were observed in body fat, fasting insulin, total cholesterol, or triglycerides compared to the control, but it did produce significant changes in body composition parameters, which included fat mass, fat-free mass, and BMI. Like even that, that seems like a contradiction right there because they were talking about body fat and now they're talking about fat mass, which we think that you think that would be the same thing, yeah, and blood liquid concentrations of HDL and LDL. So I feel like I probably just confuse listeners even more, but the point that I wanted to extrapolate from this is it looks like short-term versus long-term, people experience different effects on different proposed benefits of intermittent fasting. And yet I wouldn't use that. It's just weird to me that it's posited as like, oh, do fasting and then the benefits, if you stop the benefits disappear, which like I said at the beginning, fasting is not, it's not like you, it's not like it changes you and then if you go back to your old ways that you're magically protected. It's a lifestyle. It's not a, yeah, it's an ongoing lifestyle.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. And that's essentially what I got from it as well. And also I think as well, three months is a significant amount of time. It's not that short, really.

Like if someone diligently sticks to kind of anything for three months, you're going to see change. So the fact that they, one hand said, you know, no benefit in the way, and then saying, oh, the other hand, oh, but body composition changes. Like that's hand in hand. It's so, yeah, it's very funny. But yeah, stick with fasting.

Melanie Avalon
You know what's funny? So the very, very last sentence of the whole paper or two last two sentences is our findings revealed another important conclusion. Long-term IF led to statistically significant benefits in HBOMC and body weight that were not achieved with short-term IF. This suggests that sustained adherence to IF may yield benefits beyond those observed in shorter durations. Therefore, continual long-term IF may provide more lasting metabolic benefits.

Why would you make that your last sentence and then make the title that the benefits disappear? Literally, you know what I feel like? I mean, this is me just, okay, this is not, we don't know this is a fact, so I probably shouldn't say it. But I feel like I feel like people had different ideas of what they wanted to support because, you know, and somebody won by getting the title. They're like, well, we're going to conclude something different. What they conclude is different than what the title presents, if that makes sense.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it sounds like a lot of cooks in the kitchen and that's what sounds disjointed, you know.

Melanie Avalon
And that also goes to show why, because if you just saw that, if you just saw the title, you'd be like, oh, it's a very negative feeling, but then, you know, you read the conclusion and the vibe is more about the continuation of the benefits. If you're, if you're, you know, continuing to do it, even if it seems like sometimes they aren't there.

Barry Conrad
I'm picturing like a, you know, like a group assignment and people sitting around a table and just, you do this part, you do this part, you do this part, it's not succinct or cohesive, it's like very disjointed, like lots of different individual thoughts and theories.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, and in a way, I mean probably I'm assuming everything is it's true. It's just it doesn't feel cohesive and what they're trying to like Present and then just as I've said it a million times, but I will this is the last time I'm saying it I I don't think with any diet.

I would not discredit the diet if the effects Go away when you stop the diet Unless the diet literally promises do this once and you're like set For good, which I can't think of any diet that promises that Then I don't really see any problem with benefits disappearing when you stop it

Barry Conrad
Like, how do people expect to, yeah, stopping anything, not even a diet, anything, like how you expect to keep reaping the benefits of your stop?

Melanie Avalon
So yeah, sorry, I feel like that was really confusing and now I confused myself.

Barry Conrad
No, it was actually really good to try to analyze and like figure out what they're trying to say. That was really fun to do.

Melanie Avalon
And I like what you were saying, too, about how it makes sense with the weight, how some people might see it in the long term. You know what? That's interesting.

I bet some people see more weight loss with intermittent fasting in the short term, and then they might plateau. And other people, it might take longer, but then they see more in the long term. You know? Like, we're just so individual as far as the timeline of weight loss.

Barry Conrad
Well, it's an awesome study, nonetheless, thanks for being in it.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you. Shall we, now that I've confused myself, shall we answer some listener questions?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so first question comes from Nydia, and this is from Facebook. So friends join my group, Intermittent Fasting Biohackers, because you can ask questions in there for the show.

And Nydia says, how do we know we are fat adapted, and why every time I open my window, which is protein, I get the runs. I fast 19 or 20 hours, depending on what time I get out of work, I have been fasting for about four-ish years.

Barry Conrad
Well, Nydia, thank you so much for your question. And honestly, a lot of people out there probably echoing same when they hear that question. Because you've been fasting consistently four years, hitting 19 to 20-hour windows. That's pretty impressive. And you're clearly committed to the lifestyle.

So let's talk about both parts of this question. So how do you get fat adapted? Well, I think the fact that you've been fasting this long consistently is a pretty strong chance you already are there. So fat adaption, it's not this moment to look a light switch that just goes, you're fat adapted now. It's more like a gradual sort of a shift that happens as your body learns to efficiently use to store fat for fuel. So that kind of adaption, it doesn't just happen overnight, Nydia, but after four years, you've given your body more than enough time to build that metabolic flexibility, I think. And the signs that your fat adapted can show up as having like things like having stable energy throughout the day, even during the fast fewer cravings for sugar or refined carbs or the ability to work out fasted without maybe hitting a wall, even mental clarity. If you're experiencing any or some of those, like that's likely a sign that your body's showing that it knows what it's doing. And for the second part, I would say, getting the runs every time you open your eating window, especially when you're starting with protein, that could be frustrating. And it's more common, I think, than people probably realize that there could be a few reasons why. I think one of the big things is when you fast for longer periods of time, your digestive system, it does slow down. So especially with things like enzyme production, so your body isn't actively digesting anything for most of the day. So when you suddenly introduce food, especially dense protein, your body kind of has to like rev back up, like start the engine again. So if it doesn't have enough enzymes ready to go, or if your first meal is maybe too heavy or too quickly, your body can maybe respond with urgency, literally, you know, that gets to the bathroom now feeling, could be your gut saying, whoa, like that. That escalated fast, like, you know, maybe let's slow down. Another layer could be possibly related to maybe bile production. So if you're, for example, eating higher fat protein meals, like steak or chicken thighs or something like that, something with added oils, your gallbladder has to release bile to help break that down. But sometimes that sudden sort of release can irritate the gut a bit or just overwhelm your system a little, just after a long fast. And for some people, it's not even about the fat or the enzyme load, it's just that their guts become more sensitive over time because you're giving it such a break throughout the day. So fasting can shift your microbiome and that can make certain foods, even ones that used to be totally fine, feel like more of a shock initially when you reintroduce it on an empty stomach. So what to do, like, what do you do with that?

Barry Conrad
You could experiment with breaking your fast a little more gently. So instead of diving right into a big protein meal, for example, you could maybe just have a small bite or something softer or lighter than giving your body 10 or 15 minutes before you eat the rest, or even something like a tiny buffer can make a big difference.

Overall, it doesn't mean nearly anything's wrong. It doesn't even mean that your fasting isn't working. It's just, it could mean that your body is asking for a slightly softer re-entry or you've clearly built a strong foundation. So, and now it's just about refining those details, I reckon, and just keeping a digestion, making sure a digestion can keep up with your goals. But it sounds like you're doing awesome. And I know that people listening, it's gonna resonate with them and there's more people out there that have this in common, I reckon, but Melanie, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
You nailed that. You did such a good job. I agree completely with everything you said.

So I think with the fat adapted, because basically it's a as far as a timeline of what has to happen for you to be quote fat adapted, basically, your insulin has to come in to control get lowered, so that your fat stores can actually be tapped into during the fast and that you can burn the fat for energy. And you have your body needs to be able to be able to produce ketones and run off of them. And so that's all changes that have to happen with your hormonal signaling with your insulin going down and then just literally with your mitochondria kind of quote learning how to burn ketones, how to burn fat, but definitely by four years you should be fat adapted. The sign that I look and very pretty much covered all the different signs you can look for. I think the biggest one for me personally that says that your fat adapted is can you can you fast without the cravings and without your energy dropping? Because when you're fat adapted, when you go into the fasted state, then you can tap into fat stores and burn that and burn ketones rather than your body getting quote hangry and really needing carbs. So if you find that you can fast easily without cravings, you can pretty much bet that you're probably fat adapted and you're not getting like blood sugar swings and your energy crashing and things like that.

And Barry, you covered all of the different things. A big epiphany for me that I had was I used to, I guess I didn't understand that when you first eat, it stimulates the digestive process really throughout your whole body. So even though you're like eating like something up top, it stimulates your large intestine because that's where the dumping is happening from. So when you've been fasting for a while, it's actually called, I'll put a link in the show notes to a study called Physiology Gastrocolic Reflex. So basically this Gastrocolic Reflex is this motility that happens in your large intestine following once you eat something. And there can be a large spike in it in that movement when you eat, especially if you haven't been eating and you're fasting and then you eat, it can make more of that movement in your large intestine which can create that urgency feeling. And then Barry really covered it as well with like the enzymes. The bile acid can definitely be a thing because if the bile is building up, because bile builds up in you while you're fasting and then once you eat, especially if it's protein or fat, so and she mentioned protein being the thing, the body dumps that bile and then that can really stimulate your large intestine and create diarrhea. So it would be really interesting to see if you, because she mentions protein, but when she says protein, because a lot of people say protein, but really if it's like a steak, they'll be like, oh, that's protein, but that also could be like protein and fat.

Melanie Avalon
So it would be interesting, is it just the protein causing it? Is it the protein and fat? Is it just a large meal that's causing it? So I would try like Barry was talking about, you know, breaking your fast more gently trying smaller things and seeing if you still get that response.

You could also try supporting your body with digestive enzymes and HCL. So then maybe you're not going to tax your own digestive enzymes in your body. I would basically really work on supporting your digestion and seeing how that affects this issue. And she said she's been fasting for years. It's a while. Yeah, I wonder how long, like has this been happening from the very beginning and for the entire four years?

Yeah, my suggestion would definitely be try enzymes and HCL and see what that does and easing in. Yeah.

Barry Conrad
So good.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, should we do one more quick one or? Let's do it. So question from Christine, would you like to read it?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, so Christine from Facebook says, how much and how often should you change your eating window when you hit a weight flutter?

Melanie Avalon
All right, Christine, thank you for your question. So we get a lot of questions on the show about plateaus and basically, you know, should you change your eating window? I know we give this answer a lot, but there's a lot of options that you can do when you hit a plateau. So it really just depends on you and your bio-individuality and what works for you.

So like for me, I am so happy and used to and comfortable in my one meal a day eating window that for me, if I were to hit a plateau, I just, I have no interest in changing that aspect of it because in my life and socially and energy wise, I like having a one meal a day. So I would tweak what I'm eating rather than change the eating window. And yet at the same time, a lot of people, it's a game changer for them to change the eating window. So it depends what are you doing right now? Like how much leeway do you have to change it? So if you have a longer eating window and you hit a plateau, that's actually a great opportunity to just tighten up the eating window. That's like a really easy switch that you can do and you'll probably see results. But if you already have a tighter eating window, then it's like, what are you going to, what are you going to do from there? Are you going to fast longer? Which that is something you could try. So you could try like an ADF type approach and throwing in some, some longer fast throughout the week or making some of your eating window days, a few times a week, more calorie restricted. The part about her question that I would reframe is that the should. Basically there's not anything you should do. You have to just see what works for you. So if playing around with the fasting is something that you, that you're open to and you would like to do, like try it, like definitely try it. If that's not appealing to you, there's a lot of changes you can make in the food choices you're making. You know, if you're not eating whole foods, try, not the store, but you know, unprocessed foods, you know, try that. You could try playing around with your macros, doing low carb or low fat. It feels like a cop out answer, but those are my thoughts. What are, what are yours?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I mean, in my experience, Christine, it's less about needing to push harder and I think in more about, as Mel said, so great, there's mixing things up a bit maybe, because our bodies are smart, they do adapt quickly. So if you are curious to try it, even shifting your eating window slightly could be enough to get things moving again, like for myself, I've been doing 24 for a long time now.

But sometimes I switch to 22 too, or even 24 hours sometimes, but not always intentionally. And I don't really ever really feel like I'm going through the motions because life will just get busier or not as busy and I'm always going to hold on 20 hours, but if it gets busy, I'll just naturally sort of change. It doesn't have to be a dramatic overhaul, just something that reminds your body, hey, we're not getting too comfortable here. But I think it's about staying flexible, testing what feels good and letting your body guide you, but exactly what Mel said, there should, there's no should. Just try it if you're curious, but there's no need to if it's working for you. And I'm exactly with Mel in terms of like, I love the one meal a day protocol for me, even if I felt like if I did feel kind of stale or things were stalling, food is so underestimated food choices. And I learned that later on as an IFR. So yeah, those are my thoughts.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. We're the same page So shall we have our proverbial breaking of the fast, which I guess now that's officially what I say

Barry Conrad
Yeah, that's what you say.

Melanie Avalon
Do we feel good about it, about that phrase?

Barry Conrad
We feel good about it. I'm happy with that.

Melanie Avalon
Perfect.

Barry Conrad
So the restaurant that I chose this week is quite fitting because it's in downtown New York City and it's called Le Cuckoo. And it's basically old world French, old world French fine dining. So think like chandeliers, mel, antique mirrors, tall ceilings, kind of like a Parisian salon situation. Award winning French wine list with burgundy, Bordeaux, champagne, all perfectly matched to rich dishes like quenelle, de broche, and rabbit and mustard sauce.

Basically this menu, before we get confused by Mel, it's the Hors de Beauvoir. The Ordiverse. Si, I can't even say it. Are the appetizers or small starters and then the plats are the main or principal dishes and the gormen, I feel like you know these pronunciations, gormen dishes are the bite sized sweets or treats. So that's our guide for what those titles mean. Should we have a look at the menu?

Melanie Avalon
Yes, you know what I also think? I think it's funny how we feature so many restaurants on this show and we both, I feel like butcher, no pun intended, like we have all the names, we should go to a class.

Barry Conrad
We really should because it's like, you know, we're, okay, we're trying to hit, but we, I feel like it's would be more respectful to them if we got it right.

Melanie Avalon
Somebody commented on this on Facebook. Really? What did they say?

Somewhere, somebody from the audience commented and they were saying how it was Facebook. And I think it was a Spanish woman and she was saying how she was cracking up at us horribly, not pronouncing anything correctly.

Barry Conrad
Oh my god okay we need to definitely

Melanie Avalon
It was like a nice comment. It wasn't upset.

Barry Conrad
You know what? This is what I'm going to do now. Before the next time I bring a restaurant that's French or whatever, I'm going to actually study the pronunciation of these words.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, but this could be like a learning experience for us.

Barry Conrad
I think it'd be really good because I think it's, it's good to do that rather than sort of guess and stumble through it.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, I already I need a picture of because the the restaurant, the website doesn't really show the what it looks like. Oh, yes. Okay. Yes.

We love we love chandeliers. I feel very strongly about lighting.

Barry Conrad
Me too. Lighting's a huge deal. For the purposes of this menu mill, I think we should just call it entree, mains, and desserts.

Melanie Avalon
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, we cannot. We know we can't call Okay, you're in America now. We can't call the appetizer an entree because an entree

Barry Conrad
Oh, no, that's right. I have to change. Oh, no, I have to actually

Melanie Avalon
do. Entree is way too confusing.

So shall we look at the... or divorce? The word I can never say. What's funny, it's so they don't do they not use that word in Australia, because they they use it a lot here.

Barry Conrad
I'm sure that they do at French restaurants for sure, but I've never had to use it, so.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, wow. Okay. Yes. I hear it a lot. I just don't say it. Okay. Oh, look, they have oysters.

Barry Conrad
Oh wow, surprise, surprise.

Melanie Avalon
Surprise, surprise. So what are you going to get?

Barry Conrad
First protocol is definitely the hoo-tray insignia, which is the warm oysters, camembert cream and spinach. And then I'm also gonna get some thon-a-les-pel-et, which is yellowfin tuna scallop, esplod oil and spring onions. It sounds really good.

Melanie Avalon
It does sound good. I'll taste some of the scallop and I will taste the oyster.

Barry Conrad
You know what the funny the funniest outcome of this whole thing is you gonna fall in love with oysters and be like you know what i can't believe i used to hate them.

Melanie Avalon
I've actually, I actually feel very confident that I'm never going to like oysters. I might, and I don't think I will, are my thoughts.

Barry Conrad
Okay, what is what looks good to you in the hodavos?

Melanie Avalon
This looks really good. The tartare, the beef tartare, the hand-chopped prime filet, traditional condiments with caviar. Yes. So okay, and then shall we look at the

Barry Conrad
We should go to the plats next cuz that would be the.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, is it not in order?

Barry Conrad
of the order you go in. Yeah, which is interesting. The sweets and whatnot is the second, there's listed second on the menu, but that's actually the desserts.

Melanie Avalon
No, it's not. Wait, what are we looking at? No, the Gorman... the Gorman... desus?

Barry Conrad
Look at the gomorrhysus. Those are all, um, those are not desserts sweets or treats

Melanie Avalon
Are we looking at a different menu? Are you looking at the dinner menu? Yeah, so what do you see second?

Barry Conrad
So I see the common, common disses.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, that's another like, that's kind of like a

Barry Conrad
Oh, really? That's another, okay, another mains kind of thing.

Melanie Avalon
It's like another appetizer.

Barry Conrad
I can't say man, it's another appetizer, it's another appetizer. So I would get from there, the Morellis Fachis, which is stuffed moral mushrooms. Cause I love mushrooms.

Would you get anything from that?

Melanie Avalon
No, I think I'll pass on that course.

Barry Conrad
and then the plaits.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so this is like the entree, the mains.

Barry Conrad
The entree, entree situation.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I'm so intrigued. There's a few.

Barry Conrad
really good ones.

Melanie Avalon
There's there is a few act this is good because I definitely want a dessert. So oh Man, this is really hard.

Okay, so well the thing I'm very intrigued by is the to to let to to let up on to to let up on The all and then it says underneath it says underneath all of the rabbit. So is it is it? I'm confused What is it? I can't be all of the rabbit. Is it all of the rabbit? This is the conversation that I will be having with the waiter or waitress. I'm like, can you clarify? To let up is it literally all of the rabbit like a flick is it is it like a um Is it like when you get a full hen like but it's a rabbit?

Barry Conrad
Maybe just like have a, I'm just picturing like a rabbit on a plate.

Melanie Avalon
Wait, I'm gonna look it up on the restaurant on Yelp because I'm sure somebody has a picture of it. It doesn't look like it's all of the rabbit. It looks like it's like it's two cylinders.

Barry Conrad
I'm looking at Google images and I'm looking at what that is, so I have two little things with

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's like two cylinders. I wonder, Hmm, what is that? What part of the route? I'm very confused.

But then there's also there's also a dish, though, that is in, it's in like a soup pot situation. And it looks like it has it looks like it has different parts of the rabbit. So I think there's going to be a long conversation with the waiter or waitress about this. Either way, I want it.

Barry Conrad
Because I've only tried, because you tried rubber, right?

Melanie Avalon
Actually no, because the one place that I wanted to order it, I couldn't order it without, they had pre-marinated it. Rabbit's not very common on menus. Is it more common in Australia?

Barry Conrad
It's not more common in Australia, but I tried it in Tenerife a couple of years ago and it was actually really good. Isn't it? It's very lean, right? It's very lean. It tastes like a cross between beef and chicken, but it was in like a stew, like a rabbit stew. It was really good.

It's a white meat, right? Is it white? Yeah, it's more on the white side and it's really, yeah, definitely melts in your mouth. It's really, really, really tender.

Melanie Avalon
Well, I okay, so I definitely want that. And with my two entrees, because I always got to get to probably a fish.

I like sole Dover sole, maybe I'll get Dover sole for dessert. The filet de sole menier tradition. Oh, you know, I took French and in high school in college, I should know how to say these things. And I don't. But it's Dover sole golden butter, spinach, whether with with or without oysters without with and I'll give them to Barry.

Barry Conrad
But you have to specify to them if you have to prepare them separately so that the flavor doesn't go into your...

Melanie Avalon
We can't have cause contamination of the oysters to my phyletosol. Oh, wow. Yes. How about you?

Barry Conrad
I would I actually want the all of the rabbit as well because that my eyes jump to that and I also want to get the main it's called the homade bose et la vie I'm guessing and it's called it's a main lobster sauce or por rah poms dofoni you're just loving it you also do you know how to say these words I feel like you're listening to me and just like having a like laughing

Melanie Avalon
I don't know that I, I should, like I said, I should know more. You know what it is? And I, we might've talked about this before. I feel like I kind of know how to say it, but I don't want to say it correctly because then it sounds like I'm trying to do a really fancy French.

No, I want to hear it. Making a note to self, never pick a French restaurant.

Barry Conrad
Then there'll be like people writing saying, how come you don't ever choose anything from France? Well, it has to be English.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and that's another that I mean, not regret, but I do wish I had kept up with learning French more like I wish I had, you know, I think we talked about this how like learning languages. We should do it.

We should learn languages.

Barry Conrad
I'm trying to slowly relearn Afrikaans, which is our second language. And I told you that.

And, but then I also would love to learn. I would love to learn like Spanish or something. And so it's actually an awesome, sexy language.

Melanie Avalon
Can you that's funny. I think I think French is the sexiest. That's probably why I wanted to like learn it. Yeah

Barry Conrad
And also because Spanish like salsa dancing or the whole thing, the whole situation is all wrapped up.

Melanie Avalon
So how much do you know of the wait, what is what is it actually called?

Barry Conrad
like enough to the point where like when I'm around it again, like I can pretty much understand and I can speak a little bit, but it's because I'm just so far moved from South Africa. Well, also it's good.

I really want, I think it's good to revisit your roots and know more about it, you know, rather than just, you know, get sequestered in a modern day society and forget everything.

Melanie Avalon
I agree so much. Quick question.

Between reading, speaking, and wait, reading and listening here, like understanding it, what are what, how do you rank those for your in general with languages? Like what's easiest for you or what's the order?

Barry Conrad
I think hearing for I think because I'm such an odd. Yeah, I think because it's like being a musician as well.

I learn a lot by hearing, even when I'm listening to speakers or like when it comes to like reading like audiobooks are really good for like nonfiction, but I like to read fiction, for example, but I absorb more information when I'm hearing it. I think

Melanie Avalon
hearing and then what would be second and then reading and then speaking. Oh, thanks.

Barry Conrad
So yeah, I don't know, actually, I think maybe hearing, then speaking, then reading, if it's a language, I think, because by doing, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
That's funny. We're complete opposite.

Yeah, for me, reading is the easiest. So like even with French, even though it's been a while and if I see it though, I can probably piece things together. And then second would be speaking and then hearing. Like when I hear it, I have to translate it into written in my head first. Should we do the desserts and the beverages?

Barry Conrad
The desserts look pretty good, not going to lie. It's a lot of... Sorbet-ish sort of vibes.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's a lot of it's like lighter. It's a lot of yeah.

Barry Conrad
refreshing. Yeah. I get the, I'm not going to say this right, but the passion mango sorbet, coconut cream and merengue.

Melanie Avalon
I love that you just read the English part of it.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I think that sounds really like refreshing after all that. What about you?

Melanie Avalon
I will get something that I'd already had from, well, it depends. If I really liked the, I have to go back to the menu. So if I really liked the beef tartare, I might get some more of that. Otherwise I might get another, another entree.

Dessert. I wonder what the duckling, is that like duck breast, do you think? I think so. That looks good. Duckling with cherries and foie gras.

Barry Conrad
What an interest. I like, I love Frogware actually. Do you like it?

Melanie Avalon
I don't actually know that I've had it. I'm sure I would.

Barry Conrad
I think you'd actually really like it.

Melanie Avalon
I just, it's basically though, the thing that concerns me is isn't it basically just like fatty liver of a duck or an animal?

Barry Conrad
It's really good though like it's like almost like a pate kind of thing like you have it on yeah it's really good like you don't like smother it in. I'm sure it tastes delicious honestly. It's very like decadent it's like it's not something that you just smack like you know have heaps of just like a little bit with a good wine but then it's really good.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. And then is there a, oh, they have a dress code. I like that.

We politely request that you dress your best for your evening. Sign me up. Elegant for a New York for NYC night out. Oh, jackets are not required.

Barry Conrad
I think address, I think that's really good. And I think that should go, go without saying when you go to a dinner, nice to know you should dress your best.

Melanie Avalon
I agree. I always err on the side of what do you think between overdressing versus underdressing?

Barry Conrad
You can never be too overdressed when it comes to things like that because you just, I mean, even people might think it's extra, but I think it's better. I always feel worse when I turn up somewhere underdressed, it's worse. Same.

Melanie Avalon
I would always even it doesn't even matter what the event is if I had to pick between underdressing or overdressing I would always overdress. Yeah

Barry Conrad
And you just have to own it.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Which I have learned to do because I do it so often. Oh, man.

Barry Conrad
Are any of the drinks catching your eye or not? Is wine's by glass? I think, for this one, I'm actually gonna do wine. I'm not gonna do a cocktail this time.

I'm gonna do some of vino. The Chevelie looks really good. I'm gonna do the Domaine, Hamelin, Vaux, Lignay, Couche Chevelie.

Melanie Avalon
Okay so basically this is a massively long list. I love the Loire Valley so I would do a little bit more research but they have oh they have so many bottles from the Loire so I would look through those and probably pick one of those.

Barry Conrad
Seeing as I'm not gonna do a cocktail for this place, I'd probably just get a bottle of delicious Chablis. I reckon that could be quite nice.

Melanie Avalon
Nice. Ooh, and they have Fleury Boujolais, which I love. I wonder if this is organic. Let's see. Yes.

Okay. So I think by the glass, I would get the Domaine des Marons, Les Marons, Fleury Boujolais, 2023 Gamay. That sounds divine. This is a great wine list. This is like, this is my type of wine list for sure.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, you're way more versed in wine, that's something that I need to develop and expand my horizons on because I do love good wine, I just don't know as many of them at all.

Melanie Avalon
Well, we should hang out.

Barry Conrad
Try file mods.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I love that they're wine by the glass. It's an entirely French menu. Perfect. Absolutely perfect.

Okay, awesome. Well, good find. So when are you gonna go and get the rabbit and send me pictures? Actually, yeah, because I'm here. Yeah. Oh, that's a question for you. Do you go? Like, would you go to a fine dining restaurant by yourself and just like get food?

Barry Conrad
No, I wouldn't go by myself. I wouldn't be scared to, but I want to enjoy it with someone.

It's more like I want to experience it with company because I think food at best should be shared. I think it's so much nicer.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I actually don't know. Have you ever gone to a restaurant by yourself? I don't think I have.

Barry Conrad
not a fine dining room by myself. I've gone like, like, especially when I'm traveling and stuff, yeah, I don't mind.

But if, if I'm just like in my hometown, I wouldn't just typically go out on my own. But I mean, I also don't think there's anything wrong with that too.

Melanie Avalon
Well, I will say and shout out because I think we've talked about this before on the show, but going to movies by yourself is like the best. I highly encourage it.

It's no fun. I mean, go with people too, but don't be afraid to go by yourself is the point.

Barry Conrad
I think I'm going to a group movie thing this weekend at some point, I think Friday.

Melanie Avalon
with existing friends or new friends? Are you making new friends?

Barry Conrad
new so i think it's gonna but i think it's like i think it's like 10 people or something it's like a few people so that should be interesting all new friends

Melanie Avalon
that you've made already.

Barry Conrad
Not all like someone over i think as well the tricky thing about that is like i don't want to be talking like i like my movies i don't be talking to anybody do the movie like to try to.

Melanie Avalon
Do people talk during movies? I'm confused.

Barry Conrad
Sometimes.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, actually, I yeah, that that is a problem if you ever end up in a movie and you end up with a talker and you're like, okay, no, no, it's kind of like I will not give specifics, but I will save that I'm not going to share.

Barry Conrad
Okay, we'll save it. There's so many Easter eggs to share.

Melanie Avalon
I'll save it for next time, all the teasers of all the things to come next week.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny.

Melanie Avalon
Listeners, thank you so much for joining us. The show notes for today's show will be at ifodcast.com slash episode 437. That link will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out.

And if you want to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there and you can follow us on Instagram. We are ifodcast, I am Melanie Avalon and Barry is Barry underscore Conrad now in New York. Although when this comes out, you might not be in New York but you have a residence here now is the point.

Barry Conrad
Yes.

Melanie Avalon
So awesome. All right. Well, this was so much fun. I guess I will talk to you next week.

Barry Conrad
Talk to you next week, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
Bye. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

See you next week!

Aug 26

Episode 436 – IF For Vascular Health, Fasting And Jet Lag, Fasting And Nitric Oxide, Stem Cells Treatments, Vitamin C Serums, Beautycounter’s Return, The Fountain Of Youth, And More!

Welcome to Episode 436 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 436 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 436 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Barry Conrad.

Barry Conrad
How's it going, everyone? How's it going, Mel? What are you doing? How are you doing?

Melanie Avalon
I am doing so well. Okay, you know, what's funny, I started doing the intro and then I, I couldn't remember if you, I mean, it hasn't been that long since you recorded.

I couldn't remember if I pause and then you say hello, or if I like ask you first. Like I forgot what I was saying, basically.

Barry Conrad
basically listeners, it's my fault because I'm really jetlagged. So my brain, if there's like a delay in any answers, it's because my brain is catching up to the jet lag because I've just officially moved to the United States of America on Saturday night.

Melanie Avalon
This is wild although although okay, so you moved here, but then you're gonna travel back to Australia for your show

Barry Conrad
Yeah, because initially I was looking at, oh, I'm moving in September, but I've officially like moved on the weekend because I'm just going back to our trip in July, you know?

Melanie Avalon
My goodness. This is wild. Yes. How do you feel?

Barry Conrad
Well, as I speak to you right now, I'm looking out over this amazing view of the city. It's just New York City and I cannot believe that I'm here. I feel so grateful, so pumped, so stoked. It's very surreal because we've talked about this Mel, like for ages and now it's happening. I'm actually at the same time as you, which is crazy too.

Melanie Avalon
I know oh my goodness we're like and you know what New York I feel like it feels so far away from me but the flight is not that long I don't think I don't I feel like it's not I feel like it's like shockingly not that long

Barry Conrad
to ATL. This is crazy.

Melanie Avalon
Maybe it's farther. Maybe I'm thinking of something else. Okay, wait, New York City.

Barry Conrad
Let's see. It is really surreal that we're in the same time zone because listeners at the moment, it's 9am, 904am on Wednesday in Australia.

And like we're the day, we're like a day before, which is crazy.

Melanie Avalon
And how many days have you been back officially?

Barry Conrad
So I got in like Saturday evening, so it's been like maybe three days, kind of full days sort of thing.

Melanie Avalon
So we have to talk about all things jet lag. Although before that, so direct flight from Atlanta to New York City, yeah, two hours and 10 minutes, two hours and 10 minutes to two hours and 15 minutes.

That's fast. That is, that is less than Lord of the Rings, like watching Lord of the Rings.

Barry Conrad
That's... I wasn't expecting you to say that, but that's true. Like, go into a shower.

Melanie Avalon
I've realized when it comes to time, anything that's in three-hour time chunks, I measure it by Lord of the Rings. Anything that is 10 minutes, I measure by Taylor Swift's All Too Well, the 10-minute version.

And anything that is 40 minutes, I measure by a TV show for like 20 minutes, like back when there was commercials.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, yeah, totally. Or even like the length of shows now on streaming, it's not that long. So yeah, 20 minutes tracks.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And so wait two hours and 10 minutes. That's actually, that's even less than most movies today. I feel, or a lot of movies today.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's like I'll just jump into playing and it's that quick. How crazy is that?

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. And this will be, this is old news by the time this airs, but you went to the Tonys, right?

Barry Conrad
i went to the tony awards on sunday night and it was insane so got here saturday my suit just made it because i had a suit customized for the the show and i had to pick it up after landing from this cargo carrier place and so did that sunday afternoon got rid of which the tony awards and it was the most incredible night i can't even put into words how inspired i feel how how many people were there i feel like this is like the best year could have gone like anyone you can think of was like there it was incredible mel

Melanie Avalon
That is insane. Talk about welcome to America. Welcome to New York City. What was your favorite part?

Barry Conrad
Well, Hamilton, the musical, had like a 10-year reunion, so like the cast, the original cast, performed immediately. Yes.

Melanie Avalon
No, I have to watch that. I didn't, I clearly did not watch the Tonys. If I had cable, I would watch. Oh my goodness. That's amazing.

Barry Conrad
And the whole room was like, those goosebumps, everyone was on their feet. It was crazy hysteria when that happened.

And they killed it. And then Cynthia Arevo hosted, she was amazing. Sara Bareilles sang. What did she sing? The Sun Will Come Out Tomorrow, you know, from Annie with Cynthia. They did like the stuette for people that have passed away. It was really beautiful.

Melanie Avalon
I'm seeing Waitress on Friday that she didn't, she write the music for that. Pretty sure. Yeah. That's amazing. Oh my goodness. Who'd you sit by?

Barry Conrad
I just sat with the people that I was invited with, a shout out to Michael Castle Group for making it happen, and basically Michael Castle Group, they had six Tony nominations with the picture of Dorian Gray, which is a play, and they won too, so that's amazing.

Melanie Avalon
Congrats to them. Oh my gosh, do they like go on stage and accept an award?

Barry Conrad
Yes, Sarah snook. I don't know if you know her. She was in succession. She's an Aussie actor, actually, and she's doing it on Broadway right now.

The picture of Dorian Gray and I still have to see it. Apparently, it's crazy, like amazing.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, that's so amazing. I am so happy for you. I think I was more excited, not more excited, but I think I was almost as excited as you about you going to this.

Barry Conrad
You actually were and you would have actually loved it Mel and just it's such a different culture like everyone loves to celebrate like ambition and being a go-getter and you feel like anything really is possible here which is man just people just come up to you and just say hey I'm so and so here's my number I'd love to help you it's like why you don't even know me I just got here so this is New York you know

Melanie Avalon
That's amazing. So is that a different culture in Australia? Like that vibe is not quite there in the same way?

Barry Conrad
It's not the same because culturally, Australia is more laid back, so if you sort of a go-getter, sometimes that can be like the tall puppy. Have you heard of this thing, the tall puppy syndrome?

Melanie Avalon
Is that like an Australian term? Wait, the tall poppy syndrome. Is that what American Australians call Americans?

Barry Conrad
It's kind of, see if you can guess what that means.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, I'm guessing it means that you're being like, like, look at me, do all the things annoying.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's basically like they want you to like, it's more like they'll cut you down and say, Oh, why, why are you doing that? You shouldn't do that. It's too much.

Whereas in America, I feel like generally, very generally speaking, that's, that's more celebrated if you want to get ahead and they love it and people love to collaborate and it's just different that way.

Melanie Avalon
So the tall poppy syndrome is not the person who's, it's the person who cuts the poppies. Yeah, exactly.

Okay, I guess that wrong. I thought the tall poppy syndrome was referring to the, like, the person who's trying to stand tall, but it's referring to the person who cuts them down.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's all puppies. But you know what, in saying that, and I'll, I have to be careful, because I do love Australia. It's one of the best places in the world.

I'm not heading on it. It's just a different culture. That's all.

Melanie Avalon
Well, I also think it's not that it's selfish, I think it's two things in America. So it's very much what you're saying where we celebrate ambition and doing all the things and, you know, you can do anything and that's what America is about, which we love that. That's, yes, sign me up.

And I also think because that's the spirit of things that people, not that people are sucking up to each other, but people see that people who are ambition will make it far and people here know that you want to be with people who are ambitious. So it's kind of like, I scratch your back, you scratch mine, but like people want to, it's collaborative and everybody wins. Do you get what I'm saying?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, exactly what you're saying. And I also don't think that's necessarily bad in some cases. Like, you know, I don't think that's a conniving thing. Like, I think it's also like a survival thing.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, yeah, no, so true. It's like, and it's like literally like we just understand the importance of social relationships and, you know, and we and celebrate success.

And I think it's like, appreciated and understood how that all goes together here.

Barry Conrad
I totally agree.

And Melanie, I have to share one thing as well, what a guest, see if you can guess what my very, my very first meal was on Saturday night. And we've talked about this before. So try to think.

Melanie Avalon
Did you go to one of the things?

Barry Conrad
I didn't because I was I was too tired from but ordered in but

Melanie Avalon
That would have been like, that would have been like a lot.

Barry Conrad
Committed to the cause straight from the

Melanie Avalon
I don't even remember which ones we listed, but oh my goodness. You ordered in oysters. Oh, wait, let me think. Okay, wait. So is it something that's specific to America?

Barry Conrad
think about something that I've like gone on and on about that's like this would be like my final meal.

Melanie Avalon
Oh man, I should remember this. Okay, hold on. I should know this.

Barry Conrad
Another clue is it's pretty American. It's not really an Australian thing, really.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. You're going to tell me and I'm going to be like, is it mashed potatoes? Is it pizza? Fried chicken, fried chicken, fried chicken. I got it.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I had soul food, so fried chicken waffles, mac and cheese, you got it, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I was going to say mac and cheese too. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I need to like, I need to like list off things and then for it to come to me. So, um, where'd you get the fried chicken from?

Barry Conrad
It's from a place called, I think it's called Sweet Chick and it's like a pretty popular place here. Everyone goes to New York, so I got it from there and it was delicious. I was kind of, in the end, getting tired while I was eating because of the jet lag, but it was so good now.

It was delicious.

Melanie Avalon
oh my goodness wow and speaking of jet lag so how have you how did you okay so how long you you said it's like how many hours from australia to here like how long was that trip total

Barry Conrad
in case of listeners and Melanie, it was first a three and a bit hour flight from Melbourne to Auckland, New Zealand, and then almost 16 hour direct flight from Auckland to New York.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so how did you so did you fast during any of that? Did you eat? What did you do?

Barry Conrad
I fasted during some of it. I fasted during all of the New Zealand flight and the waiting time and stuff, and then I ate a little bit on the plane, but I instantly regretted it because the food's just not great.

It was a mission, but I'm here now.

Melanie Avalon
Have you been using fasting to reset your circadian rhythm?

Barry Conrad
actually have so that's been really helping a lot so I've really pushed my fast I've done about 20 and a half hours today which is really good that's my first really really long normal normal fast protocol for me today so I feel much better but still getting there what about you what's the longest flight you

Melanie Avalon
Done? Wait, wait, wait. Quick question. So you're going to eat late tonight? You're going to eat after this?

Barry Conrad
So I'll probably have like a little something after this I reckon. I haven't eaten yet.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, you're doing it like Melanie style.

Barry Conrad
You know our shows, we do them in the evening listening, so I'm trying to get that Melanie schedule just to see if I like it, to see if it works with me.

Melanie Avalon
What you could do is, even if you don't like it, you could use it as a, here's my, here's my pitch for you. Are you ready? You ready for my pitch? Okay.

So say you, you could do your normal window every other day. So eat earlier. But then on these days, you could eat after. So that would give you one day a week, like a, a long, like a, that would give you like a, you know, a 36 hour fast or something, right?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I actually could do that. I could do a long, I could push it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I can see what I'm saying like do your normal thing And then have your one day a week and then you would automatically get a long fast

Barry Conrad
Yeah, just throw it in there like a bonus, you know?

Melanie Avalon
I like it. The problem for me is that I can't, because I already eat late, there's no way for me to do it.

There's no way for me to... The cool thing about the situation with you is you could still eat every day and get in a longer fast. I can't because I eat late, so in order to get 36 hours, I would have to actually go to bed again. I'd have to sleep in an empty stomach, if that makes sense.

Barry Conrad
That's not fun.

Melanie Avalon
Which I don't like doing, but to answer your question, the longest flight, um, I've only, I've only gone to Europe, so Europe stuff. I don't know what's farthest away with, it probably would have, oh, actually Hawaii.

Isn't Hawaii far?

Barry Conrad
How was pretty far, but it depends where you're coming from because I know it's like super far from Australia, but from Atlanta, I'm not too sure

Melanie Avalon
I think now it's like looking up all the, wait, I need to see, I need to see.

Barry Conrad
I feel like the UK would be quite far because you went there for like a Thanksgiving situation.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, but it wasn't. It wasn't that far. It was only the fight with the flight from Atlanta today was like six something hours

Barry Conrad
Yeah, actually, I was someone told me yesterday, actually, that someone invited me to come to a show in the UK. And they said it's actually like maybe like a seven, eight hour flight, because Singapore to Sydney time travel situations, not that far.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's like shockingly not as far as I thought it was. It looks like Atlanta to Hawaii. Oh, you can take a nonstop?

Barry Conrad
What did you do? Did you, you had connections?

Melanie Avalon
That's mind blowing to me. Yeah, I always thought that you connected like in LA or something. Okay, so it's nine and a half hours if you take a night, if you take a nonstop.

Barry Conrad
That's still not that bad.

Melanie Avalon
No. But then if you connect, then it's like, you know, 13 hours or something.

Welcome to New York. Did you play Taylor Swift's Welcome to New York? I should have sent that to you. Man, should have sent that to you on the day. I should have like played it. I should have sent you a message, a voice message and like played it.

Barry Conrad
Would you have sang it?

Melanie Avalon
No.

Barry Conrad
This conversation, right, about if you can sing really well.

Melanie Avalon
I sang in the past.

Barry Conrad
See, I think once a singer, always a singer. So I'll have, we might have to change that. Maybe I'll get like an exclusive.

Melanie Avalon
You'll get an exclusive performance of me singing. Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah, maybe not. We'll see. Never say never. Never say never.

Barry Conrad
Anyway, what about you? How's your week been? How's your past couple of weeks been?

Melanie Avalon
Well, it's good. I can actually, we have a question that asks about the biohacking conference so I can, I can tell you then about going to the biohacking conference. It sounds great. Perfect.

Okay. But before that, shall we do a study?

Barry Conrad
we should. So I am bringing a study today called Time-Restricted Feeding Improves Vascular Function in Healthy Humans. And it was published in 2024 by researchers at the University of Colorado Boulder and appearing in the journal Atarias, Chlorosis, Thrombosis, and Vascular Biology. And the reason why, Melanie, you know about this story already, but the reason why this hit quite close for me, hit home for me, was because a few years ago, listeners, I had a clot dislodged in my leg and shot up to my right lung. And I essentially had half of my right lung killed off. And it was a moment where it almost passed away. It almost died. And so any time, well, ever since then, I've been really cautious about anything vein or blood flow related.

So when I came across this study, linking intermittent fasting to vascular health, of course, it really appealed to me. And so this study, it involves involve 24 healthy adults aged between 25 and 55, which is not a huge, huge group of people, but the design was pretty solid. So each participant followed a four day control eating pattern first where they ate three meals spread across like a typical regular normal day. And then they switched to four days of early time restricted feeding, where all meals were consumed between 8am and 4pm. And so they were doing a clean love it, the clean 16 eight fast, but then they skewed earlier in the day that time. So what stood out now is that these weren't people with pre-existing issues, the vascular issues, they were healthy, no metabolic diseases, which makes things even more powerful. Because what the researchers saw was a significant improvement in endothelial function after just four days of time, just four days of time restricted eating. So listeners, if you don't know what that means, it's that refers to how well your blood vessels expand and contract. And it's a massive marker of like cardiovascular health. And then when it's impaired, you're looking at way higher risk for things like high blood pressure, heart attack, stroke, and clot formation, which is what happened to me. So the fact that they saw measurable changes in just a few days is awesome. But it gets better too, because they went deeper and looked at nitric oxide availability as well. So that's the molecule in your body uses to relax blood vessels and improve circulation. So after fasting, nitric oxide by availability improved as well. They also saw a reduction in oxidative stress, which is basically cellular damage caused by inflammation or free radicals. And that reduction further supported improved vessel function. So all this from shifting when the people ate, not what they ate, that's the key here. Not how much, just the timing. And I think that's the key takeaway. And there's this deeper layer to fasting, you know, that to a lot of people just goes under the radar, even to people that fast all the time, forgetting that it's not just about those scale victories, you know, it's not just the weight or the glucose or the willpower,

Barry Conrad
it's literally supporting our health, you know, our vascular system. And it's something I take incredibly seriously.

So of course, this was pretty short term and small, as I said before, we need bigger, longer trials to confirm more how long these effects last. But even with the small pilot, I think one thing's pretty clear is when you eat, when we eat matters. And it's just another reminder, Mel, that IF isn't just about the visible stuff. And yeah, it's protecting you from things you might never see coming. Mel, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, that is an incredible study. Thank you so much for finding it. And especially sharing your personal relationship to it, it's still so crazy to me that you went through that. And that just must, I don't know, that must give you so much gratitude for life, having been through that.

I think this is really, really powerful, especially because cardiovascular disease is the number one killer of people in general. I was just reading about it more the other day in a book and it was saying how pretty much, not that everybody gets it, but everybody pretty much when you die, you have some level of approaching cardiovascular disease just because of how prevalent it is and how it happens in the body. And so seeing, like reading the study, that's amazing that after only four days that they saw those effects. And then it's not just, you know, cardiovascular, anything that benefits your cardiovascular health and your vascular health benefits essentially your entire body. You know, like the brain, because the brain is relying on your vascular system to be powered. And so anything that affects your hearts, affects your brain, they call it clean fasting.

Barry Conrad
They specifically said they were doing a clean sixteen eight fast which is which is interesting right?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah, that's wild.

Barry Conrad
I don't think I've seen that in a study, like mentioned specifically, like a clean fast.

Melanie Avalon
That is so interesting. I wonder, honestly, you know, Jen Stevens, who used to be the the co-host on this show, like she really is the one who popularized the idea of the clean fast. I don't know if she originated it. She definitely, you know, is probably the reason it's out there is like a concept.

Shut up. Yeah. So, well, good find. Thank you for sharing.

Barry Conrad
Of course.

Melanie Avalon
So friends, support your heart with fasting and your body and your vascular system. And I guess with nitric, I always wanna say nitrous oxide.

Barry Conrad
Yes, I am, yeah, because of the wisdom teeth.

Melanie Avalon
Nitric oxide, I mean that probably benefits sexual health as well because I mean, it's not what a phiagra does. Yeah. Yeah, so everybody Everything in your body benefits the book I'm reading right now. I'm prepping is on dementia and cognitive decline and she was talking about Like the potential of Viagra for preventing cognitive decline for that same reason because of how it relates to nitric oxide Yeah, I think the studies are conflicting.

Yeah. Okay, basically there's interest surrounding it

Barry Conrad
That's wild. It's like, take fire, granule.

Melanie Avalon
benefit your brain.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, wow.

Melanie Avalon
Alrighty, well thank you for finding!

Barry Conrad
Of course.

Melanie Avalon
Shall we jump into some listener questions?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it. So we have the first question we have is from Stephanie and she asks, are you going to the biohacking conference? Where can I get a good vitamin C serum now that beauty counter is gone? And then sad face emoji.

What do you think about stem cells?

Melanie Avalon
All right, rapid fire from Stephanie. Rapid fire with longer answers.

So are you going to the biohacking conference? Well, by the time this airs, it was a while ago. But this is what I was saying in the beginning about I can share about my the past few weeks because I did go to the biohacking conference in Austin, that's Dave Asprey's conference. Next year, it's going to be called Beyond, like the Beyond conference. I think they're rebranding a little bit. But Barry, we were talking about this. We have to go. You have to come this year.

Barry Conrad
I really wanna.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, it's so amazing. Basically, it's just all these different brands and health and wellness are all in one room. So many podcast guests are there in person. I got to hang out with a lot of people that I've had on the shows. I also got to meet a lot of new brands. So I had a lot of like back-to-back meetings, just meeting all these different brands.

Like the new ones I met were I met a company called Sillient. I'm going to have them on my podcast. This was really interesting. They make a material that you weave into fabric and it actually takes your body's heat and turns it into infrared energy and puts it back into your body. So it's like clothing that helps your body's mitochondria and your energy. Actually, this is what was mind-blowing. They're in so many big brands. They're in like body armor, like the brand Body Armor and probably like 15 other pretty well-known brands, but they just haven't done any marketing around themselves. They've been in the shadows. So now they're creating their own product. It's a pillow. They actually gave me one. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm excited.

So I met them. That was cool. I met an electrolyte company where it's like electrolytes and hydrogen water tablet type thing. I met... Oh, this was fun. He was just on Dave Asprey's podcast actually. It's... Is it the first FDA-approved oral testosterone supplement? Maybe. I don't know if it's the first.

Barry Conrad
That's a game changer if that's the case because that's going to, wow, okay.

Melanie Avalon
if it's the first. It's definitely a big deal in the testosterone replacement world, although it's funny.

So I didn't realize that it's just for men, the FDA approval. So I had a meeting with them and I walked up and I was like, I am so passionate about this. We need more awareness about testosterone for women. And he was like, well, it's just for men right now. And I was like, okay, well, if you come on the show, can we talk about women a lot? So that was cool. But yeah, it was a really great experience. I got to go to the dinner, like they have some VIP dinners, I got to go to one and, you know, meet a lot of really cool people and they were, oh, Barry, how do you feel about EDM dances? Dances?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's with the right crew it's fun. I think it's fun. Did you go to one?

Melanie Avalon
So I've never been to one, so this was my first one and they had an EDM dance last night and apparently it was like some really big celebrity DJ, Steve Aoki, I think is his name.

Barry Conrad
Oh yeah, I know, Steve Okey, that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so he was the DJ and and what was cool is because it's just the conference. So it wasn't like it wasn't that I mean, it was it was a good group, like it was a good crowd. So it was fun, but it wasn't like horrendously, you know, you can't breathe crowded situation.

You know, it was like in a ballroom at a at a hotel. So that was fun.

Barry Conrad
Did you really get your dance on or were you being shy or were you really getting into it?

Melanie Avalon
Oh no, I love dancing, yeah, yeah, I was really into it and then somebody came up and handed me, handed me and my sister these like chocolates, chocolates, slightly psychedelic chocolates, we did not take them but I saved them, so I might.

Barry Conrad
It's like mushrooms or something, what is it?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Yeah. So not that I have those anymore, but if I did, yep, we'll see. Stay tuned.

Barry Conrad
Stay tuned, dot dot dot.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I highly recommend the conference. That's the question.

That was Stephanie's question. Friends definitely go, oh, and if you go, please come up to me and say hi, because I would love to meet people in person. That's honestly one of my favorite things.

Barry Conrad
No, honestly, I saw some of your photos and it looked, it looked amazing. Like I looked, I cannot wait to go and daddy, your sister as well said, Barry, Barry, you have to come to the conference. It's really good.

I'm like, well, you've got to make it happen.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, now it turned her into a biohacker. Now she's like, I think she, she was like on the fence. I don't know if she would identify as a biohacker, but she, this, this was the thing that like really sold it for her for, um, like, like, you know, liking, liking this world, I guess.

And we got to go see, she loves Jodha Spenza and we got to see Jodha Spenza. That was cool. See you next time. Bye.

Barry Conrad
So question about the dinner, the VIP dinner, you said, did you follow your fasting protocol? Did you eat? What kind of food did they have there?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, yeah. So I don't so that's my third time going to that dinner. And yeah, I didn't I didn't eat anything. And this is funny. So the table I was sitting at, I was sitting with a friend because it's like open seating and you can sit wherever. So I went and sat by one of my good friends. I met him through the company Stemmergem. I've had them on the show before. But in any case, at my table, so my friend was on one side of me and then on my other side was a bodyguard because somebody at the table was like that important that he had three bodyguards in the room. And I was telling my friend I and then and then Martin Luther King, sorry, Martin Luther King's like grandson. He was speaking at the conference, he came in the room and that was a lot of a high security situation. And that was right by me. And so I had a moment I was like, I'm either at this moment at like, the safest place or the least safe place. I'm not sure, probably both existing at the same time.

So yeah, it's a very high security room. It was it was really fun to answer your question with the food. The food was I think it was I gave mine away to everybody. I think it was steak. Yeah, I didn't eat any of it. Do you like you love steak? I know, but I don't I eat and then I go to bed. I you know, so if I so yeah, if I were to eat, I would just like fall asleep. It would take me out of my vibe.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I get it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it was fun. You must come!

Barry Conrad
I'm dead. It's happening.

Melanie Avalon
next year. And literally, we would get to hang out so much because it's if we stay in the hotel that it's in, you're just like there.

And so you like go to the stuff and then you hang out like I then afterwards, I went in the hotel lobby both nights until like really, really late hanging out with people. It's so fun.

Barry Conrad
It's happening, putting it out there.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes, yes.

Barry Conrad
Bookmark at this moment. Let's remember it.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Okay. So those are my, my answer to that. And then where can I get a good vitamin C serum now that beauty counter has gone well, Stephanie, by the time this airs, assuming they don't push the launch beauty counter supposedly came back June 25th. So hopefully that happened because we're recording before that. So that's really exciting, but it's actually not called beauty counter anymore. It's called counter. I'm assuming my link will be counter.com slash Melanie Avalon. They haven't told us yet how the link is going to work. Either way, counter.com put me as your reference. That should get you, that'll get you on my, my list. And I send free things to people. So definitely, definitely check that out. And another alternative is crunchy. I talk about them a lot. I love them. They also have a vitamin C serum. So they're great for that. You can go to crunchy.com slash Melanie Avalon for that use the code advocate 10 to get 10% off your first order. And then also I am obsessed with oral glutathione or so oral wellness is vitamin C serum. So there's this called citrine. I use it every night. It's really, really powerful for that. Go to Melanie Avalon.com slash oral AURO. And then you can go to oral skincare, which is in the top left and definitely check out their citrine serum. It's super high potency. It's 25% vitamin C and glutathione. It's a complex of those. It's ridiculously powerful. I did it again. Sorry. It's ridiculously powerful. He's actually, I saw him. So Dr. Patel, he's the one that's his company and I love him. He has a book called the Glutathione Revolution. I'm actually going to bring him on this show on the intermittent fasting podcast. So stay tuned for that. Oh, he told me that he's trying to make an even a higher potency one that's like 50%, but he's trying to figure out how to do it with the bottles because it literally like breaks down the bottles. So he's workshopping that. Those are my ideas for vitamin C serum.

And I'm just assuming that that beauty count are now counter. Well, I'm sure they'll bring back their vitamin C serum because that was one of their most popular things. And then for her last... Oh, and by the way, really quickly, if you want to get the latest updates from me on all these things, you can go to melanieavilon.com slash cleanbeauty. And wait, wait, wait, Barry, are you going to have a... I forgot. I know we went through your lineup. Are you going to have a vitamin C serum in your lineup?

Barry Conrad
Not yet. We're going to have a vitamin A serum. Yep. But stay tuned.

Melanie Avalon
Like a retinol alternative? Awesome. Okay.

So and then the last question, what do you think about stem cells? Okay, that's a big question. So I mentioned stem region a second ago, they make a supplement that supports your body's endogenous release of your own stem cells. And so stem cells are super powerful. If you want to learn more about all the science of it, definitely check out I've done two episodes with Christian Japro. He's, he owns that stem region company. Stem region is actually the title sponsor of the biohacking conference. So when you go to the biohacking conference, there's like a million sponsors, but stem region is like everywhere because they're the main sponsor. They're incredible. I adore them. Shout out to Stephanie and Christian. I'll put links in the show notes to the two episodes that I've done with them, because you will get the deepest dive of deep dive into stem cells, how they work in the body, what they do. Essentially, for people who are not familiar, we naturally have inside of us these, they're like immortal cells, basically, they're cells that there's different types, but they can become anything. So most cells in our body are differentiated into what they are. So like a liver cell knows that it's a liver cell, and it's not going to become anything else. You know, and your bone cells are bone cells, they're just going to be bone cells. Stem cells, they're like this blank slate. And when your body needs repair, or it needs to, you know, fix things, things that happen with aging, stem cells get released from your bone marrow, and they go to that part of the body and then they can actually repair and become that thing. That's why they're so powerful for healing. And that's why people will do like stem cell treatments. And the idea with stem cell treatments is that you are bringing in these cells that can basically, you know, repair things. Christian is very much sold on the idea that they are, you know, literally the fountain of youth and that he thinks aging and death even is depletion of stem cells. Like he thinks that when we die, it's, you know, we basically capped out, we tapped out with our stem cells. He is more about, like I said, endogenous release, because basically you have this bank of stem cells that you can have, but our bodies don't always release them or use them. So his supplement that he has, and he has a whole story about how he found it, like it was this supplement that was having these profound effects with people's healing. And then he realized the connection to stem cells. And it's like this wild journey. But so that's one option is the endogenous release, I do really recommend stem regen. It's incredible.

Barry Conrad
It's a good name too, Stemmergen.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah, it really is. So for that, you can get 15% off, go to Melanie Avalon.com slash stem regen S T E M R E G E N and use the code Melanie Avalon to get 15% off.

And then as far as like stem cell treatments. So I think there's a lot of potential there. It's still this weird gray area. Like it's not, it's gotten better, I think, but there's been a lot of, like I think technically stem cell treatments are illegal in the US, but people get around them by doing like exosomes or, or doing stem cells, but like tweaking it and labeling it as exosomes. Like I've done a stem cell treatment in the US. And it was actual stem cells. It wasn't exosomes. I don't know how they got around that, but they did. A lot of people will travel out of the US and get treatment and it's way cheaper out of the US. Basically, my comments on it are, I think it has so much potential. I wish that there was more research on it and that the legality issue would get more easier and clearer in the US because it is, you know, difficult to, it's difficult to find, difficult to go with somebody who trusts with all the issues surrounding it. And I think there's a lot of potential, but I just wish there was more studies.

Oh, that was a lot. Do you have thoughts Barry on vitamin C serums, biocompare and stem cells, all the things.

Barry Conrad
I feel like you answered that beautifully, Melanie. I don't think there's anything that I could add that could be any better than that. That was great.

Melanie Avalon
Have you done anything with stem cells before or thought about it?

Barry Conrad
I actually haven't I was gonna ask you the what what inspired you to to get stem cell treatment like why was it a health issue going at the time and did you feel any different after that process.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So it was an opportunity that was presented to me. It was a practice that wanted to collaborate. So they were starting to do stem cell treatments at their clinic and they basically offered to to do it for me at like the cost of basically they just charged me for the stem cells. They didn't upcharge anything as far as like I got it for a really good price is the point.

And they also used me for training. So like everybody was watching when they did it. The reason I was really interested in doing it was I had this injury in my knee that happened. I know when it happened. It happened actually when I went to D.C. for beauty counter in was that 2021? And my knee just always had this. It was really, really bad in the beginning, like the pain and then wasn't really going away. And it's hard to know. Basically, I don't have that issue now. It's gone. The issue is completely gone.

What's hard to know is they say it takes like six months from the injection until you'll feel better. So it's hard to know. It's hard to know like, Oh, well, would I have been better anyways after six months? You know what I'm saying? I think it would be more telling if I had done it on an injury. I don't have one of these, but if I'd had an injury that I'd had for like a decade, you know, or like at least like longer where I was like certain it wasn't going away. And then yeah.

Barry Conrad
Otherwise, it's like, is this placebo or is this the actual, yeah, I get what you're saying.

Melanie Avalon
Did I just, did my body heal on its own anyways? Um, but I do know, I mean, it is completely gone now. So I just know the injection was way worse than I thought it was going to be.

Barry Conrad
Like, what do you mean? Like, just like a big needle? Like, what's, what's

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah, the needle was massive massive like the biggest needle I've ever seen and then He they freeze the skin so he froze it and he's like you're not gonna really feel it cuz it's gonna be frozen Oh, and it was so painful And it took so long like like to like push it in and I was just like in my head I was like, oh, this is not this does not feel good. This is not feel good

Barry Conrad
Did they give you anything to deal, handle that pain or not?

Melanie Avalon
No, no, in retrospect, I probably would have doped myself up before, but we survived. So it probably, it probably helped that so many people were watching because, you know, then you're in like performance mode and like fight or flight, you know?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, exactly. It was really interesting what you said about the theory on stem cells being, you know, us dying or even aging as lack of stem cells or stem cells being depleted, that I've never heard before.

That's interesting.

Melanie Avalon
It's really interesting. I mean, that's just his theory, and he's very open that that's just a theory for him, but that's what he thinks it is. He thinks death is like stem cell exhaustion.

Barry Conrad
So basically, you know, in some reality, let's go to like this, the stem cell vending machine, and just buy like a new cartridge and just like you measure like battery levels going up and you rejuvenate it again. Like I'm just, you know, some futuristic universe. That's maybe a thing.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, well, what's really interesting is I mentioned stem cells being immortal and I should clarify, I don't mean that they're immortal, but what I mean is basically, at any given point in your body, you have these cells that are young cells. Like the stem cells are, even if you're old and you even if you're like, you know, in your 70s or 80s, and you release endogenous stem cells, those stem cells are young, you know, and then they can become anything.

And Dr. Walter Longo talks about this as well in his book. He talks, maybe it was David Sinclair, one of them, maybe both of them. People talk about as well, how it seems like in theory, our bodies would hold the key to immortality because we can make embryos that are like a, you know, a brand new human. So it's like if we can do that, in theory, it's possible for cells to become, you know, completely new and young again.

Barry Conrad
Very interesting. So.

Melanie Avalon
Yep.

Barry Conrad
And I know that you, and I know that Melanie, listeners probably already know this as well, your thoughts on longevity as well, on living, you wanted to live, you know, live a long, live a long life. Live forever.

Melanie Avalon
I'm I'm all about it. So

Barry Conrad
Only if you look the same, right? Not like not.

Melanie Avalon
Right. Yeah, I'd like to like tap. I'd like to, yeah, plateau at a certain or age backwards, if required. It's funny, whenever I hear stem cells, because I was raised in a very Christian church and it was during the time and I went to a Christian private school and it was during the time that there was all the stem cell controversy was when I was in like high school, I think. I remember hearing like stem cells and like thinking, oh, those are really bad because because there was a lot of controversy around embryonic stem cells.

But what I want to clarify now is it's not, well, a few things. One, the embryonic stem cells they were using presumably were stem cells that would have been thrown away anyways, but that's a whole, that's a whole another topic. Now it's not, it's typically not embryonic stem cells that are used. It's typically, it could come from a lot of different places, but it came from like the placenta rather than the embryo. There's other places it can come from. I should be more knowledgeable on this, but it's not typically embryonic stem cells that are being used today is my point. That's super fascinating, Mel. I know. I'll be really curious. I'll be curious to see what happens in the future with all of this. So should we have our proverbial breaking of our fast?

Barry Conrad
We actually should and you know what I think today more than any of the show in recent times I feel like super ready so like this is going to be awesome.

Melanie Avalon
because you're fasted, right? Well, actually, wait, you're normally fasted, right? Or normally you're fasted, but it hasn't been as long. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, you're feeling it. Okay, yeah, welcome to my world. Again, how many times can I say that? I'm picking this one, right? Yes, so I have a surprise for you. It's not a Disney restaurant. It's not? No, and actually, I was actually gonna do another non-Disney one, but then today, a listener, shout out to Christina, she suggested this restaurant.

Barry Conrad
Oh wow. Shout out Christina.

Melanie Avalon
I know. So I'm going to tell it to you, but first I want to read her message about it. Can I read her messages?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, let's hear it.

Melanie Avalon
So this is where she lives, I guess. So she said, we're going out to dinner Saturday evening to our favorite place.

And I was just playing the menu game and realized that this is one for Mel and Barry Conrad. She said, and then I asked her, why does she like it? And she said, the quality of the food is off the hook. The diversity of the dishes, the varietal of meats. There's always something so different and the vibe is fun. When you read the menu, you can see that they've got a great sense of humor, very tongue in cheek. Barry will flip for the oyster caviar service menu and all the spirits. I think you will be very happy with the wine list. I am a big fan of the cocktails. They're also on the SOS app, the Seed Oil Safe app. And then she says, last time we went, there was a rack of lamb that was amazing, but I didn't see it this time. They changed it up frequently. I can't wait to see what you guys order.

Barry Conrad
Wow, that sounds delicious, Christine. Thanks so much for the tip.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and so when I looked at the menu, it's really cool. They're into like all sustainable and local sourcing and they have wine awards. So let me send you the link.

Barry Conrad
Hey, let's, I can't wait to check it out now. That lamb sounded legit. I love lamb so much.

Melanie Avalon
So it's called Perron's Restaurant and Bar, changing lives one dish at a time. And they say, let me see where it is. So it is in Polly's Island, South Carolina. They say on their main page. So they say that their menu is always a work in progress, that they always evolve and change it with the goal of creating one of the area's most unique, exciting and delicious food experiences.

They consider it world cuisine with a Mediterranean focus. They're all about local and organically sourced when available. Their proteins are growth hormone and antibiotic free. They use local poultry farms, ranchers, fishermen, crabbers, clamors and shrimpers, sustainably farmed salmon. And let's see, they're very serious about their cocktails, wines and beers. They have a wine spectator award-winning wine list and they have a core event so that you can, you know, try vintage and price your wines. So shall we look?

Barry Conrad
Let's have a look. I'm going to click on the, should I click on the menu here? Appetizers.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Okay. So appetizers. Wait. Hey, so app. Okay, wait. So we have options. So there's appetizers, entrees, chop house, caviar service oysters. Should we look first at the caviar service oysters?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I reckon that'll be before, you know, like before the substantial entrees. Okay, perfect.

Melanie Avalon
So, well, we know, we know how I feel about oysters at the moment, at the moment, but I like caviar. So what would you get from this?

Barry Conrad
Okay. And here's that word again, shucked. So I'm going to get, there's oyster shooters, listen, so fresh shucked oyster of the day. I'm not going to, there's the Japanese Bloody Mary. I don't love Bloody Mary drinks in general, so I don't think I'm going to like that one.

There's the caviar oyster shooter, which is, oh, there's the caviar, sorry, which is American hackleback Russian standard platinum vodka, creme fraiche, seaved egg, and chives. I reckon I'm going to do that. And then I'm also going to do, uh, there's so many options here. I'm, ah, what I'm going to do the, the gold service Royal Beluga.

Melanie Avalon
I knew you were going to get that. How'd you know? Because you like the... We talked about the Volugas, the fancy pants one, right?

Barry Conrad
Yep and it's got like warm blini, seed oil-free sea salt, kettled potato chips, creme fraiche, seed farm egg chives, chilled caviar. So delicious. What about you Mel?

Melanie Avalon
I love that they put seed oil free on the menu.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, that's specific. It's good.

Melanie Avalon
So I think I like the, I want to try the smoked trout row and chips, but not the chips, but it can be on the side.

Barry Conrad
So can I have those? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
you can so like plain do they have just wait caviar eggs so they don't have just plain caviar right oh oh yeah they do yeah they do the silver service oh right oh well you got the royal beluga caviar so i'll i'll like taste that if you'll let me taste it and then and then i'll take wait you did get some oysters right or did you not

Barry Conrad
I got some oysters shooted. I got the...

Melanie Avalon
Oh, right, wait.

Barry Conrad
Oh, I didn't get oysters, I said, I didn't get oysters, no, no, no, no, no. Oysters in the half shell, I'll do that for sure, fresh oysters.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, I will maybe taste one of those.

Barry Conrad
It's gonna happen now. It's closer. It's more of a chance now that I live here because I you know I feel like I'm creeping in it's coming in and it's gonna happen

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I'll taste it for you. I'll take one for the team. That's why I'm here.

Barry Conrad
Should we go to the appetizer slash entrees?

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Or wait, yes, yes, yes.

And there's also the steakhouse or the chop house option. Oh, it's all on here as well. Oh, it's on here. Oh, and it's the chop house. Oh, this is the full menu it looks like. Okay, so starters. Is there a starter that you like?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, the starters, you know what, I'm definitely going to do, have to do a burrata. I love burrata cheese so much. I'm doing that.

I'm going to have the, from what I can see here, there's dry aged salmon roulettes. That sounds really good. It's a spreadable dip, poached coho salmon, dry aged in house, smoked salmon per nod, salt and shallots, lemon zest, butter and crème fraiche. So the toasted baguettes, that sounds really good. And then last but not least, I have to get the mussels, Bangkok mussels. You, Mel, you haven't tried mussels, right? Have you? You said this. It could be a lucky day, oysters and mussels.

Melanie Avalon
if I can, like, get to, actually, I might, seeing what's on the muscles, I might actually just, I might try them in the, the sauce. Maybe, maybe, we'll see.

I think I would get maybe the Wagyu steak tartare, plain, everything on the side, if possible. Oh, it's from Georgia.

Represent. And yes, yeah, yep. And I don't have to specify how to order because tartare is rare or raw, which we love. I love

Barry Conrad
Blue Raw. Also Mel, I just realized I could have gone to this place because I went to Charleston a couple years ago. If we had been doing the show then I could have ducked in.

Melanie Avalon
Oh man, next time.

Barry Conrad
Okay, well, should we go down to the soup and salad? You into the soup and salad, are you going to skip that?

Melanie Avalon
I'm gonna skip. Feel free to get something though, if you like.

Barry Conrad
You know what, I'm just going to do the crab soup because I do love a good seafood chowder type situation. So North Carolina, lump blue crab.

You know how I feel about trying things from the actual area. So doing that crab soup.

Melanie Avalon
And I love what they say, I mean, you didn't get a salad, but all of their dressings are made in house from scratch with no processed or refined oils. So there's no trans fats. And they use non GMO, expeller pressed avocado oil and cold pressed extra virgin olive oil. That's super cool. That's first.

Barry Conrad
It's good.

Melanie Avalon
It's for all the, because there's all the concerns about the seed oils. Okay, for Andre, what are you going to get? This looks, there's so many things I want.

Barry Conrad
I know. Oh man. Uh, what am I going to get? Okay.

Here we go. I feel like I'm going to do the, the USDA prime ribeye 16 ounce. It's a prime chop. I'm going to get that medium rare. And then I'm also going to get with that side of mushrooms and onions. Love mushrooms so much. Bacon, mac and cheese and some roasted butternut squash.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I'm gonna get definitely the elk tenderloin for sure, grass-fed pasture raise, cooked sous vide to medium rare. Oh, specified, I wonder if I can get it rare. I'm gonna ask if I can get it rare. I'll get everything on the side.

It's a lingonberry and pork sauce. If you wanna try it, otherwise I'll get it without it. I'll try it. Okay, on the side, lingonberry and pork sauce, organic grain, medley and grilled vegetable. And then I also want a fish. So depending on what the fresh catch of the day, okay, so if the fresh catch is trout, then I will get that.

Otherwise, interesting that it's a dry aged salmon. That's interesting. Well, I think it depends. Yeah, either the fresh catch, depending on what it is, or then I might switch it up and get duck, which is jurgle wicks. I don't know what that is. Duck breast, pan seared, two potato mash and grilled vegetable, blackberry pork demigle.

Barry Conrad
That sounds pretty good. The Blackberry report doing glaze sounds interesting.

Melanie Avalon
Interesting, too, that the fish is, that they already say how it's prepared, you know, that they don't adjust it based on what the fish is, but it's with black forbidden rice with a sauce of saffron, preserved lemon, shallots, white wine, shrimp stock, and cream. So it must always be a fish that goes well with that, you know.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, the combination. Yeah. I actually drink many. We need to definitely check out their wireless cocktails.

Melanie Avalon
Oh yes, and the dessert.

Barry Conrad
Happy ending slash liquid dessert slash dessert. Let's do that first.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I like the quote says seize the moment. Remember all those women on the Titanic who waved off the dessert cart. Alcohol and dessert because adulting is hard.

Barry Conrad
I like that. I like these quotes. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Me too.

Barry Conrad
Is anyone catching? Is anything anyone? Is anything catching your eye on this dessert menu, Mel, that you can see?

Melanie Avalon
Desserts, I will probably get another entree, some fish or something. If I were to order a dessert in my, you know, dream world where I eat desserts. Oh, wait, these are drinks. Where's the actual?

Barry Conrad
If you go all the way right down to the bottom of the page.

Melanie Avalon
Probably, I would just get the house made ice cream.

Barry Conrad
Yeah? Mm-hmm. That sounds pretty good.

Melanie Avalon
How about you?

Barry Conrad
I'm gonna get a couple of things, see if you can guess.

Melanie Avalon
I think you want the warm chocolate layer cake. Yep, you got it. And you're going to add a scoop of ice cream. Yep, you got it. And then you want, do you want creme brulee?

Barry Conrad
Yes. Well, I was going to say, how'd you know? It's like, Barry, we've done this.

I'm a creature of heaven when it comes to ordering food. I think Melanie knows that. I think you all listening know that as well.

Melanie Avalon
Was there another one that you wanted or those two?

Barry Conrad
I think those two because I had, I've added a couple of things in the savory. So I reckon that's pretty good.

And then definitely to find a, they said they were famous for their cocktails, right? So yeah.

Melanie Avalon
and I'm gonna look for the wine list while you're looking at the cocktails. See, we work well as a team.

Barry Conrad
See? I already know what I want from the cocktails.

Melanie Avalon
Do you see a cocktail that you like?

Barry Conrad
I do. So I am eyeing the chili margarita. Surprise, surprise. Gonna do that.

And then also I'm going to try the casa fresca, which is like fresh muddled mint, lime and cucumber, agave, splash of grapefruit, and club soda.

Melanie Avalon
I, okay, this wine list is really low.

Barry Conrad
And if you happen to spot a decent looking Pinot Grigio mill, I definitely will get that for like the table. AKA probably, I don't know if you'd have it, but I'd be sipping in that as well.

Melanie Avalon
They have a Pinot Grigio from Italy and they have one from Oregon.

Barry Conrad
I'd probably go the idly one.

Melanie Avalon
And then for me, I'd have to look up and find if these are organic or not, but I would probably get something French. They have a few bougoulets. I love bougoulets.

So I probably, they have four bougoulets from France. So I think I would look up those and see which one is organic. And because they have a, see what it says about the tasting. I'm guessing that, because they said earlier that they had the Coravinne, so I wonder if they, if you can like taste the ones by the bottle, that would be super cool if you can. I'm not sure if you can. So something French, I'm thinking, oh, or am I get, they have two burgundies. So maybe one of those.

Barry Conrad
Either way, they weren't lying when they said they had a long list. It looks pretty good from what you're saying.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, they have four burgundy pinot noirs. Okay. So yes, I basically would look through the four burgundy pinot noirs and the four Bourgeois, and I probably would do, I would do one of those to be determined. So thank you, Christina, for the recommendation.

Thanks for the, thanks so much, Christina. We're going to have to check it out when we're there sometime.

Barry Conrad
The restaurant tour we were doing was going to be like a spin-off like it's going to be.

Melanie Avalon
That would be so fun. We could go to every restaurant that we've had that we've like mentioned.

Barry Conrad
You'll like whittle it down like you look this massive tall and then people get to see actually what you know how we eat really for real

Melanie Avalon
really fun. That'd be a lot of travel though. I don't know if I got to like, I got to prepare myself mentally for that. That's yeah, we'll think about that.

Barry Conrad
We may need to do like maybe like a road trip version, like just in America or something, or just Europe, or just pick a country and then...

Melanie Avalon
Maybe once I have a private jet and we can just like easily go there. I don't know if I can do all that trouble.

Barry Conrad
Barry's doing it, I'll just sleep. You can video me in. So funny, sounds good.

Melanie Avalon
All right. Well, this was super fun. Listeners, we hope you enjoyed today's show.

These show notes will be at ifodcast.com slash episode 436. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And you can get all the stuff that we like at ifodcast.com slash stuff we like. You can follow us on Instagram. We are ifodcast. I am Melanie Avalon, Barry as Barry underscore Conrad. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad
No, thank you so much for tuning in everyone and we will chat to you next time. Talk to you soon, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
talk to you next week. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes.

We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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Aug 18

Episode 435 – Lemon Water Or LaCroix During Fasting, Sudden Weight Gain After Fasting And Maintaining, Genetic Metabolism Differences, Eating In The US Vs. Other Countries, Overeating Protein Vs. Fat, Fetal Nutrition, Agency In Health And Weight, Water Weight Gain, And More!

Effect of protein overfeeding on energy expenditure measured in a metabolic chamber2

Welcome to Episode 435 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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⁠⁠If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 435 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 435 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad
Melanie, I'm doing really, really good. The sun is shining.

It is 11.30 a.m. here in Melbourne, and I just got some, actually before we started recording earlier today, I got some really exciting news. Well, it's exciting for me as an actor and singer-songwriter. I am going to the Tony Awards. I'm going to the Tonys.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my gosh. In the US, you got invited. Do they invite you? What happened? They invited you? Tell me more.

Barry Conrad
It's pretty crazy, right?

Melanie Avalon
When is that?

Barry Conrad
Yes, like June, I want to say June 6, I think, but it's basically, no, it's not June 6, it's June 9. It's somewhere around there, but it's like three days after I land in New York.

Melanie Avalon
That's so epic. What is up for Best Musical this year? Do you know?

Barry Conrad
It's a pretty stiff competition this year.

Melanie Avalon
best new musical oh this makes me feel i thought i was like on top of it with listening to all the new musicals but i guess not because i have not listened to buena vista social club dead outlaw

Barry Conrad
Death becomes her.

Melanie Avalon
Death becomes her, maybe happy ending, Operation Mincemeat. Wait, I don't know any of these. I, I, I, what? Okay.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. Because you listen, you like to listen to some tracks, right?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah. Okay, like I've listened to revivals. I've listened to Sunset Boulevard. I'm so behind. Oh my goodness, that's so exciting.

Barry Conrad
I'm so excited. Basically, a producer that I've done a musical with in the past, he knew it was going to be in New York, and he produced Sarah Snook's, the show, the play that she's in called The Picture of Dorian Gray, and it's up for six Tonys, which is amazing for him, you know, to be an Australian producer. But he was like, you're going to be there at the same time? Do you want to come to the Tony Awards? I'm like, what? Yes.

So that's wild. Like the first thing, like Landon, New York, essentially, like, you know, first thing is like Tony Awards. That's crazy.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Talk about welcome to New York as Taylor Swift would say. Right. I cannot wait. Please share all the photos and all the things. This is so exciting.

Barry Conrad
He also said to take it to the Sony Awards and the after party. So imagine what that's going to be like. That's next level, right?

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, that's crazy. Oh my goodness, I am so happy for you. I'm gonna be living, you better post so much stuff.

Barry Conrad
It's kind of going to be one of those things like, I don't know, like, you know, you kind of have to feel it out like just, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure I'll get photos for sure. But I'm going to see what the vibes like what like those are like massive stars.

Like, you know, I don't know what that's going to be. I hear you.

Melanie Avalon
I feel like though, I feel like when I see, when I watch like the Oscars and stuff, there's always like the pictures of like the celebrities like taking selfies and stuff.

Barry Conrad
That's true.

Melanie Avalon
You know, I feel like we've entered an era of like, there was like a, like a moment where it was like, I don't know. I feel like it's just a thing now.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I think so too.

Melanie Avalon
But yeah, totally feel it out. Oh my goodness, so exciting.

Barry Conrad
If i could bring it plus one which i can't but if i couldn't do it definitely would be someone that asked to go because i know that you like that you love going to things like that.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, honestly, if you've been able to, I'm going to biohacking conference next year. I'm just thinking like I would go, I'm pretty sure. Just for one night though.

Barry Conrad
Well, you might get on the plane really tired because the after party, you might be like, oh, did I really need to do one night?

Melanie Avalon
I mean, but that's the thing, like when I do these one night things, it's always something crazy the night before and I'm always the next day on the plane, like, I'm actually usually pretty good because I have my glutathione, I have my NAD.

Barry Conrad
Also, to clarify, listen, when she's saying one of the things she's talking about, one like traveling situations, let's just like make that clear in case someone tunes in. Power through what to do these things.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, just just one night, Barry, you know, my one night traveling. I like to travel and like do the event, do the thing and then go home the next day, so I totally would go.

Barry Conrad
What were you saying about the biohacking conference? Tell me about it.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, that's next week for me. This is going to be so in the past when this comes out. Excited? Yeah, I really am.

Man, we, I mean, the timing is like just off if you had been, you know, a little bit earlier to the US.

Barry Conrad
I know but but guess what i'm gonna be there next year exactly so that's gonna be very very realistic very doable.

Melanie Avalon
I'm really excited. I'm excited to see, it's nice to see all these podcast guests and friends that I've made through the shows through the years and see them in real life and all the brands are there.

Yeah. I'm excited. It's going to be fun.

Barry Conrad
Do you get nervous when you go to things like that? Oh, not really.

Melanie Avalon
No, I did the first time. The first time I went, I was very nervous.

Barry Conrad
Really? What were you nervous about? Like, just like be like, cause it's the first time just.

Melanie Avalon
I was so nervous, I hadn't, yeah, because I hadn't gone to any conference really before and all these people that I like kind of know and the people I look up to, I was like what, you know, I went, the first year I went completely by myself, the second year I went, my photographer came with me, but the first year I went, I just went by myself and yeah, I was like, am I gonna like make friends? And I made friends like really quick and it was amazing, so, and now I just feel like I know so many people, it's gonna be fun, next year.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, is there anyone that you're really looking forward to meeting in real life that you've been meaning to? You haven't met yet?

Melanie Avalon
So I think the majority of the people that I want to see, I actually, yes, there's actually, there's a few. I just recently interviewed Dr. Michael Ruscio again. I had him on this show, actually. So he was on this show for episode 68, wow, in 2018. And then I just interviewed him again for the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, but I've been listening to his podcast for way before 2018, probably since like 2014. So he, hopefully he'll be there. I'm excited to meet him.

And then I'm also really excited to meet, I just interviewed Kasia Urbaniak. She wrote A Woman's Guide to Power. It was fascinating. She actually, her background is as a dominatrix and also she studied to become a Taoist nun. What? Yeah. And she basically, she took, she's taken what she learned from that, the work as a dominatrix. She's noticed like the role of power dynamics in relationships. So she, the book is about how it applies throughout society, like not necessarily just like between men and women, like with everybody. It's a really fascinating book and I really liked getting to interview her.

So she's going to be there. So I'm hoping to meet her. And then it's a lot of people, I'm sure there's some other people I haven't met yet before, but it's going to be a lot of people that I already know and have met.

Barry Conrad
It's so exciting. Awesome. It's kind of like a high school reunion. You don't see everyone because everyone's busy doing their thing and they catch up with everyone.

Melanie Avalon
It's like so fast. And you're literally just talking to people like the whole time and you still don't even get to see everybody you want to see. And like the expo is just, you know, I don't know how many brands it is, probably like a hundred. And it's all these brands I know. So like I get to see them and like, you know, like things I love like Sunlighten and oral glutathione and you know, red light therapy. And yeah, I'm excited.

It should be, should be fun. So yeah, well, it's so exciting things coming up. I can't wait to hear about the Tonys. Cannot wait.

Barry Conrad
And I can't wait to see all of your posts and stuff about the conference.

Melanie Avalon
Fun times. Okay, shall we jump into things for today? Let's do it. So to start things off, I am bringing the study today and it's actually two studies.

Barry Conrad
Okay.

Melanie Avalon
But the reason I'm doing two is because I read one study and it was really interesting and then I went on a rabbit hole and I found something that kind of provided further context and clarity about the prior study. So the first study is called Effect of Protein Overfeeding on Energy Expenditure, measured in a metabolic chamber. And this study is actually from 2015, so it's a little bit older, but it was published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, which is like one of the main journals out there. And basically what they were looking at is they were talking about how people's metabolism increases when we overeat, but how is that affected by what you're actually eating, like protein versus fat? And how does that affect your body composition and energy, your metabolism and things like that? So they had 25 participants and they ate 40% excess energy, which is a lot. And they did that for 56 days, which is crazy because this was a metabolic chamber. For that, that's where you actually go in, it's so tightly controlled that they can actually measure your metabolism by the gases in the air, which is crazy because of how much carbon dioxide and stuff that you're exhaling. So they had people on 5% protein diets, 15% protein diets, or 25% protein diets. And they measured their metabolism, like their 24-hour metabolism and their sleeping metabolism on days 1, 14, and 56 of overfeeding and on day 57. Oh my goodness, that's so much overfeeding.

So what's really interesting is that for the low protein diet group, they were more so testing, they're calling it low protein, but it was basically excess energy from fat. So the ones that were not excess energy from more protein were excess energy from fat. And they found that the participants that had excess energy, primarily from protein, that it actually increased their metabolism, both 24 hours and when they were sleeping, but not for those that overate on fat. So I think this is really, really important because it goes to show the importance of the composition of our diet. And if you're overeating and you overeat on fat, your metabolism is not necessarily going to ramp up to compensate, whereas if you overeat protein, it does. And what's interesting is I don't know where I thought that the metabolism increase would have come from. I guess I would have thought that it would come more from like digesting the protein and just like burning more calories overall, but they actually found it was pretty specific to increases in like the liver and organs that are processing the protein. So that's where this extra energy processing actually came from. This boost in the metabolism actually came from. But what I thought was really interesting was so there's this study that shows that if we overeat protein, metabolism kind of goes up, but not if we do fat. But then I found this other study and it was called reduced adaptive thermogenesis during acute protein imbalanced overfeeding is a metabolic hallmark of the human thrifty phenotype. And so this was published in 2021 also in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

Melanie Avalon
And what's fascinating about this is what they were trying to look at was how do people's metabolism change when you're overeating specifically based on whether or not you're this thrifty or this spin thrift phenotype. And we talked about this in the past.

I think we talked about it most recently. We talked about it when like how does your body temperature change when you're fasting. And I was saying that there are studies on people who have a more thrifty phenotype, which is basically their body wants to more aggressively preserve their the weight state that they're in. Those people tend to get colder during fasting because their metabolism, their metabolism slows down more during fasting, compared to the spin thrift phenotype where they'll stay warmer while fasting. I think that's when we last talked about it. But what this study was looking at was the difference. And this was also using a whole room indirect climatry, which is a similar situation where you're in a room. So that's how they can really measure people's metabolism and see how things are changing. And they found, so the participants were put into different overfeeding conditions. So it was either low 3% protein, high 30% protein overfeeding, and then three normal 20% protein diets. And the participants were eating 200% of their normal metabolic requirements for food. So they were basically like doubling what they should have been eating. And they found that people's response in their metabolism varied. So some people, the people that were that spin thrift type, so the type that is not thrifty, they had a greater increase in their 24 hour metabolism by between 100 to 300 and two calories a day compared to the thrifty phenotype. So their conclusion was basically, if you're this thrifty phenotype genetically, even if you overeat, you have a limited capacity to actually compensate by burning more calories from that. What's really interesting about this, and I'll just say really quickly, this can really help explain why some people feel like they just look at food and they gain weight. Like whenever they overeat, they tend to easily gain weight. But some people just don't when they overeat, and it's probably a lot of it is genetic, which is really interesting.

And one of the things they did say was, where does this come from? And they proposed that it might actually come from your birth nutrition state. So babies with low birth weights, so if they're not getting full nutrition in the womb, or if they're just not as nourished in the infant state, then it might make them more likely to be this thrifty phenotype. So throughout life, their body might try to more conserve energy. And it goes both ways. So basically, people who have the thrifty type, they under eat. They are less likely to lose as much weight from it.

Melanie Avalon
And if they overeat, they're less likely to burn that off as well. So basically, it just makes it kind of rough.

If you're the thrifty phenotype when it comes to weight loss. So the reason I thought it was an interesting follow-up to the other study was because the first study was looking at the difference between overfeeding protein versus fat and it was saying that you know if you overfeed protein your metabolism is probably going to increase more but then it looks like there's this other layer as well which is what is your phenotype and it might be genetically some people are going their metabolism is going to adjust more if they overeat and others it's not going to. So yeah those are my my two studies. What are your thoughts?

Barry Conrad
That's super, super interesting, especially like the, or even going back to the first one, you were talking about the 40% overfed. That's, that's a lot and for 56 days as well, and just how the, I actually didn't know that there was, that there was such a difference between the metabolism changing based on protein versus fat. So it's not just overeating anything. It's overeating in the protein, which I think that's even just marginally like ramped up metabolism, not just during the day, but even overnight while sleeping, it's pretty amazing.

And it confirms like, I guess not all calories are created equal when it comes to, I guess how our body processes and uses them, which is super interesting and the spin thrift versus the, who cares about these, these types, like the names spin thrift and thrifty phenotypes, it does sound like the thrifty folks have it rough. So that's like, you know, you're, and I wonder, it's so, is it nature versus nurture then cause you're talking about the baby, like how early, you know, how that can, does that help shape what type you are or do you think it's just completely a hundred percent genetic, like if you're genetically thrifty overeating barely moves the needle and your body like clings to those calories sort of thing.

Melanie Avalon
It's such a good question. It's like, it's like, because, you know, like I was saying, and you just mentioned, they posit that it might have to do with like the birth weight and the nutrition of the baby in the womb. I also want to know though, so like how much of that is like the environment of like, is it that everybody has the potential to be a thrifty phenotype, but if you're nourished as a baby that won't manifest, or is it just like genetic and some people are going to be that way, either way. And then we also know that like stress gets passed down through generations. So it makes you wonder like, could you inherit this thrifty phenotype from like stressors of like past generations?

Because I know they've done studies on like people who are like during war starvation times and how it affects their offspring and like we do see effects. So, and I will say though, I've thought about this for quite a while. It's like if you're going so regardless of genetic tendency, if you're going to overeat, I say overeat protein. Like, sorry, if you want to, if you're overeating and you really don't want to gain weight, like adding more protein is going to be the safest cushion against gaining weight. And the way I think about it in my head is kind of like when they looked at the difference between overeating protein versus fat. If you overeat fat, really our body has unlimited capacity to store fat. So you're just going to store that fat mostly. It's like unlikely that your metabolism is going to super hardcore ramp to burn it off like they showed in that first study. Compared to protein, we don't store protein. So when we overeat our protein, it's like, okay, what are our options here? The protein has to be processed. There's a protein has a higher thermo thermogenic effect than fat. So you're already wasting like 30% of your calories just burning the protein protein compared to fat, which has a much lower thermogenic, like it can be almost 0%. Like basically, you can just like store fat easily. So we're losing like 30% of or requiring like 30% of the calories and protein just to burn it. Now you have excess protein, what are you going to do that protein? Well, the body has to convert it into it can convert excess into glucose, it can do that. But that's a energetically costly process as well. So you're losing calories there. That's why they found you know, the increase of energy was in like the like the liver and stuff, like we're actually processing the protein. And then even then, so now you have, say you wait over your protein, and it gets turned into glucose. So glucose does not easily become fat either. So it's like a very like long chain to convert excess protein actually into fat stores, if that makes sense.

Barry Conrad
It does make sense. And it also, you know, I'm happy with this because, you know, for both of us, actually, we eat a lot of protein, which we, it's no secret on this podcast.

And it also has me thinking like, how can I even further, further personalize, you know, like my, my fasting and nutrition, like knowing that, that I'm actually going to be fine. Like I don't think that I, I definitely don't overeat on protein, but knowing that if I do have a surplus of it, it's not going to be harmful. I'm not going to be gaining all this weight. You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. And it's interesting because I know my experience of when I overeat protein, I get like super hot. Like I really feel it.

And to me, that's like a sign of either like the thermogenic effect of protein or my metabolism increasing. Like when I overeat protein, I really feel it. If I were to overeat just fat, I wouldn't necessarily, you know, feel the heat leaving my body. Same.

Barry Conrad
Actually.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it makes me wonder, though, if some people, especially with the genetic one, like, do some people not get as hot after eating as much, if their metabolism is more thrifty with everything, you know?

Barry Conrad
And also i want to help people i want you can test or i guess you probably know like you know if you're getting colder during the fast and things like that how do people know what's up there as well.

Melanie Avalon
I was thinking about that too, because I was like, hmm, what phenotype am I? But the thing is, this kind of gives people agency, I think, for the phenotypes.

Because even if I was a thrifty phenotype, I feel like the way I eat is so protective of metabolism and so protective of creating excess weight gain that I think even if I was thrifty, I feel I still feel like it would be hard to gain weight with the diet I follow, which is like the fasting every day, the one meal a day, and then eating the certain macronutrient choices that I make with high protein and then either high carb low fat or higher fat lower carb.

Barry Conrad
I also thought it's interesting that it shows the 5, 10, and 50% protein. I wonder what made them choose those numbers rather than higher. Yeah, interesting.

Melanie Avalon
I thought that too. Yeah, I thought about that.

I was like, I don't know why they chose the numbers they chose, but because if I think if I were to do studies like this, I would always work like in the extremes. Like I would want to make it really extreme because I think it would show. I think you could maybe learn more about mechanisms. So if I were to set it up, I would do like, I would want to have like somebody on the super minimal protein intake and then just add all fat excess fat and then the high protein I would want to make it like really high protein, you know.

Barry Conrad
I also think with the phenotypes and whatnot, I reckon some people, when they hear this or even if they read about phenotypes, they may say that they're a certain phenotype, but it could even be just down to like lifestyle choices versus the reality. Like again, we're real easy or whatever, it's not necessarily the type, you still can't like out phenotype your lifestyle and your diet, your food choices, you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
I'm so glad you said that because it's kind of like when we talked about that metabolism study where we found out that after age 60 people's metabolism doesn't really decrease that much. I mean, it goes down. It was what it went down by like half a percent or something a year, like something really small. I think people often like to do what you just said and like outsource their health situation to like, oh, it's genetics or oh, I'm, but there's so much agency you can take with your diet and lifestyle.

Yeah. There's, there's a lot of power. Even if you are thrifty phenotype, I think you, there's a lot you can do to, you know, maintain the body composition and the health state that you want to be in your body can't create excess fat from nothing. So it's just like a logical fat. Some people will say they're doing all the right things. Their diet, they're always in a calorie deficit, but they're gaining weight. And it's like, if you're actually gaining weight, you're not in a calorie deficit. It's like not actually possible logically. You might think you are, but your body, and maybe you're putting in less calories than you, you know, that should be a calorie deficit, but your body might be a just adjusting might be, you know, so, so basically, I think there is agency that can be taken with people's health and weight.

Barry Conrad
I love this topic because it's just so true, like just owning your choices, taking responsibility. A lot of people just don't know. They don't know what they're actually really consuming if they really knew what they were eating. Anyway, we could go on forever about this topic.

I know. I know. Awesome. Fine. I love that you brought two studies.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you. Thank you.

Well, it's funny because I found the first one. I was going to do it. Then I found the second one and I was like, Oh, I want to do this one instead. And I was like, wait, but I, I got to talk about both of them because they, they relate so well. They like provide more context.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. And now, also, you're talking about the 60-year-old situation like metabolism. I actually mentioned that to a mate of mine. This is back when we did it, and he was like, no, I don't believe that. He was like, no, when you get older, your metabolism slows down.

But people think it's like a dire slowing down, but it's actually not. It's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon
Tiny, yeah, yeah, it's crazy. Okay, shall we answer some listener questions? Let's do it.

So to start things off, we have a question from Amy and this is from Facebook. And Amy says, if our main goal is fat loss, is it okay to have water with lemon or a flavored La Croix in our fasting window? I know it may increase blood sugar, but is it low enough to not matter for fat loss?

Barry Conrad
Okay. Amy, how's it going? Hope you're having a good day.

Thank you for your question. I've heard this question come up a lot in different forms. It's something a lot of people wonder about, but don't always maybe vocalize. You're in your fasting window. You're trying to stay on track. You're trying to hit your goals. Then there's this voice that's like, wait, does lemon water ruin everything? What about my LaCroix kind of vibe? First off, good that you're thinking about this, the level that you're being intentional about it. When we're talking about fat loss, the big picture here, which we've talked about before, is insulin management. The whole reason fasting is so effective is because it's giving your body a break from those insulin spikes, which opens the doors to tapping into the fat stores. Anything that really significantly spikes the insulin. When food's coming in, when the body recognizes something sweet, food's coming in, during your fasting window, it can really disrupt that process. So lemon water, we're talking about it's a small amount, but yes, it's still going to spike your insulin. For a lot of people, that little splash can help them stay on track, especially if they have a lot of weight to lose and people could say it's better than nothing at all. But with LaCroix, or really any flavored sparkling water, just like lemon, and even zero calorie, it's going to trigger the insulin spike again. So it depends, I guess, what your goals are really at the end of the day. If you find you're getting hungrier after a drink and you start to crave food more, you've probably experimented with this before. Just go the black tea, the black coffee, sparkling water with no additives in there. At the end of the day, test it out, try it. But I mean, if you're asking, I really just do feel that it's better just to do the clean fast.

Melanie, what do you think? Because it's kind of one of those things where people say, I'm not eating, I'll technically still lose weight even if I have flavored water, but I'm just really on the side of the clean fast and just really keeping those insulin spikes to zero. Do you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so I'm on a really similar page. And I'm actually I'm glad the way she phrased this question because she said, I know it may increase blood sugar. And I think that's a really big misconception because we've talked so much about the clean fast. So it's not blood sugar that's actually increasing from these things. It's like Barry was saying it's the insulin response. So you can from the from like from the flavoring, you can have this insulin response that actually honestly, it actually will lower your blood sugar probably. But then that can create a hypoglycemic type response because then your blood sugar goes low, then you get a craving. So that's something that can happen with that goes to show how like these flavor things can, they can make the fasting harder.

So even if you're not bringing in calories, and this actually relates really well to what I was just saying. So it is true. You're not going to create fat from no calories like that just isn't a thing. But and it can still create an insulin response, drop your blood sugar, you get cravings, it would make the fast the fast harder. When insulin gets released, it actually can shut off access to your fat cells for burning. So you actually might stop burning fat. So it's, it's not so much that you're gaining fat from it. As it's messing, it can mess with you hormonally make the fast more difficult and make it harder to burn fat.

And at the same time, some people actually do fine with the water with lemon and even the flavored unsweetened, you know, on non caloric drinks. So if that's you, like you do you, we're just here to say what, you know, what we think in the long run makes things easiest. I mean, I know for me when I started fasting, I was doing, I was doing unsweetened drinks, even things sweetened like stevia and stuff. And I but then I slowly, you know, actually went into the clean fast approach. And I much prefer that it's so much easier.

I have so much more energy burn fat easier. Yeah, Barry said it well. It's like tough love. It's like, probably better not just going straight up with the completely clean fast. But you have to do you

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I mean, it's also one of those things where I have heard when people have asked me about fasting and I, you know, I told them about my protocol and they say, well, I do that. I just have my sweet and drinks, but that's fine. I'm happy with that.

And it's one of those things like you just got to do you like Melanie said, like, that's the way that they want to do it. And, you know, it's like, I've earned that sweet and drink. I'm not eating the rest of the time. It's like, that's totally up to you. But it's exactly what Mel said. It's going to make it easier for you. And who wants to be in pain and agony and like struggling through it, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, exactly. So it's been interesting, like the evolution of the show and being with different co hosts and different perspectives, because like, for example, because you know, Jen is Jen Stevens is very much about the clean fast. So everything is like a very strict like, no, no, no. But then like, for me, I agree, like I agree that it makes it much easier. And still at the same time, I think people got to find what works for them.

But it's probably going to be easier with the straight up, you know, clean fast. All right, shall we go on to our next question?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it. So Maris on Facebook says, why does my resting heart rate dip so low, 55-ish, when I drink a moderate amount of organic alcohol on the weekends? Is this good or bad?

Melanie, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
All right. Thank you so much, Maris, for your question.

Well, first of all, yay that you're drinking organic wine. Hopefully it's dry farm wines, which we love, which Barry and I were just talking about how... Wait, were we talking on the podcast or offline? We're talking offline, right? I think it was on. Was it on? I think. No, no, I think it was off.

Barry Conrad
Okay, it was off. Okay.

Melanie Avalon
I think it was off because I was saying that I would connect you to people, right?

Barry Conrad
Oh yeah, Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, when Barry moves to the US, he can start ordering dry farm wines, which provides access to, I just, I'm so obsessed with them, they make, they don't actually make wine, but they, they go throughout Europe and some other countries, but a majority of it is Europe. Oh, they do go to places like South Africa though, because I've had South African wines from them.

Every time I have one, I, yeah, think of you, I think I've like saved it to have it with you. Oh, one time I accidentally opened it and I was like so upset. I don't know, I don't know if you remember that. I was like saving it.

Barry Conrad
We have to have it again, then.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes, yes, yes. I should go see if I have any right now that are from South Africa. In any case, I'm trying to think if I've had any from Australia. I don't think so because there's not.

Okay, I'm about to ask a very not intelligent sounding question.

Barry Conrad
Cool. Hopefully I can give you a very intelligent sounding answer. Go ahead.

Melanie Avalon
Australia, there's not high altitude, right? Is it all, like when I see Australia, I see like the bush. Is it like all like that, mostly?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, and there definitely are mountains for sure, like definitely, but yeah, there's a lot of flat.

Melanie Avalon
I just, I feel like this might be why, like the wineries there, it's probably a warmer climate usually for the wineries.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, but we have, for example, we have the Barossa Valley, so in South Australia.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, okay. I think I have. Okay. I have had some from them from there then. Okay. Because normally the warmer climate wines, wineries tend to create higher alcohol, higher sugar type wines. And so there's not that many dry from wine ones that are, you know, from that climate, but I have had ones from that Valley. So okay. In any case, but they go throughout and they find the wines and they test wines to make sure that they're organic, free of elk, sorry, free of mold, free of pesticides, low sulfites and low in alcohol and low in sugar. And they're amazing.

So if listeners are interested, they can get a bottle for a penny at dryfromwines.com slash I a podcast back to Marissa's question. So it's not really necessarily a bad or a good thing to alcohol is a depressant. So it can have the effect of lowering your, your heart rate. So if that's the heart rate that you have with the wine, it's not necessarily a bad thing. If it's, you know, just happening during the wine and you're not experiencing negative side effects from that, you might benefit because you would want a broader picture of what is happening with your heart rate, like the majority of the time, not just when you're having the wine. So this would be something where I would highly suggest getting an aura ring because it can monitor your heart rate and your heart rate variability. And it will actually show you your trends and you'll be able to see how your heart is doing all the time with the context of the wine.

But basically, is this good or bad? You can't really answer that unless you know what your heart is doing all the time. But going down from alcohol is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just because alcohol is a depressant. Do you have thoughts, Barry?

Barry Conrad
No, I mean, you put it beautifully like it is a depressant. So I mean, it's going to slow your nervous system down anyway. And your heart rate, it's going to dip temporarily. And it's not necessarily a red flag, but it's not like you're yeah, it's a win.

I think the bigger, the bigger thing is like paying attention.

Melanie Avalon
kind of just is, you know, like you need more data, you need more data.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, exactly. Pay attention how you feel the next day, Maris, as well. And I mean, if your sleep is disrupted, do you wake up feeling foggy or anything like that? That's, you know, maybe pay attention to that.

I mean, your body's always talking and letting you know, but if you have any concerns, genuinely, as we always like to say is like, you know, see a GP and ask, but I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be concerned with that. It's going to dip after drinking. That's my thought.

Melanie Avalon
That's our non-doctor perspective.

Barry Conrad
Yes, not medical advice.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. All right. Shall we go to our next question? Let's do it.

So this question is from Christina and it's also from Facebook. Join us. By the way, my Facebook group is IF Biohackers. So you can just search for Melanie Avalon groups on Facebook and it should come up. And that's a great place to ask questions for the show. So Christina says, so she's struggling with sudden weight gain after years of fasting and maintaining weight. And then this wasn't Facebook. So Christina commented on that and said, yes, this. And then Jennifer commented on this and said, agreed. So a lot of women experiencing sudden weight gain after years of fasting and maintaining weight. Appropriate question, since we just talked about the changes of metabolism as we age. Barry, do you have thoughts?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, definitely. Christina, thanks for sharing. And like Mel said, it's very, very timely as well, this question.

And it's funny seeing those chiming in as well with the big ears. That's funny. And I want to start by saying, I understand. Even though I'm not a female, it can be frustrating. Any kind of stalling or anything like that or weight gain, you've been doing everything quote unquote right for a long time. Fasting, maintaining, feeling good. And then out of nowhere, something's different. The scale can creep up and whatnot. And your clothes maybe fit kind of different. But let's get into it because there could be a few reasons why. And most of them are probably more physiology than failure, I would say.

So first of all, I want to talk about adaption. So our bodies are really smart. So over time, if you're fasting the same way for months or years or same window, same eating, it's possible that your body could become super adaptable to that because it's more efficient at operating within that framework. So that's a good thing. But the downside is maybe one's triggered fat loss or maybe that's the new status quo. But if it stops working, it just could be because your body's adapting. And the second thing I always think about is maybe for women, hormonal shifts. I'm not a woman, but I've done some research. So let's talk about it.

Things like perimenopause, thyroid changes, stress hormone dysregulation, that could maybe cause the body to hold onto weight more easily, even if your habits haven't changed. So that's something to factor in cortisol stress. It can be sneaky. Chronic stress can really lead to water retention, which we know and increased hunger, disrupted sleep, even changes in how your body stores the fat. So if your sleep's been off, Christina, if your life's gotten more stressful for some reason, if you started doing more high intensity training maybe or under eating, that can spike cortisol as well and maybe could be conducive to that weight gain.

And then there's also the muscle mass. So, Christina, if you've been fasting for a long time but haven't paired it with regular resistance training, I'm here to say regular resistance training and high protein, it's so important. And if you haven't done that, it's possible you've lost a bit of lean mass along the way. So muscle is metabolically active tissue. So the less we have, the fewer calories are going to burn at rest. So that's why it's so important.

And it can slowly shift to your maintenance calories lower. And again, even like a small caloric surplus over some time. So I wouldn't panic. Don't panic. Don't panic. Your body's not broken or anything. It just needs a bit of tweaking. Maybe try switching up your fasting window for a few weeks if you usually do 18.6. Maybe try 24. Even something like an alternate day fasting situation a couple of times a week on the flip side of that. Something even more gentle, like a 14.10. Just to see if anything shifts, add in some strength training in there if you're already doing it. Focus on quality protein every meal. And maybe it might be helpful to track your intake for a few days.

Barry Conrad
Not obsessively, but just to see what you might be eating. We talked about this before earlier in the podcast where a lot of people just don't know what they're taking in on the daily. They think it might be one thing. But after tracking them, I go, ah, it's actually way different significantly. So yeah, I'd suggest that.

And at the end of the day, give yourself grades along the way. You've done the work for years for what you're saying. And it's about consistency. It's just this new season right now. Not a failure. Just adjust the inputs, I would say, and let us know how you go. I mean, Melanie, what do you think?

Melanie Avalon
That was so amazing and comprehensive. That was amazing. No, I agree. I agree with literally everything you said.

So I think something that to, to key in on or look at more is the, the word sudden. So, you know, it's one thing if it's like waking after years and then it slowly starts creeping up, but if it's sudden, and I'm really curious what, what that actually looks like on a timeline for somebody, if it's literally like overnight, you're just start gaining weight. I would look at really acute changes that might happen. So like new medications, that's a huge one. If you started a new medication, they can have, they can, you know, really quickly affect your metabolism and make it so that you, what you're doing right now, even though you lost weight and maintain from it, now you're that same diet is going to lead to weight gain. And then like Barry was saying, like acute lifestyle changes, like your sleep, definitely hormones, you could get your thyroid check. So, you know, it could be that because of your lifestyle stressors or whatever it may be that, you know, you're becoming hypothyroid that can make people gain weight. Yeah. So looking at the lifestyle and then like we were talking about, like, like as we age, our metabolism actually doesn't slow down that much. And yet when you couple it with what Barry was mentioning about how we do lose muscle as we age, you know, those going together can make it, you know, make it to a state where your current diet that you've been doing that helps maintain your weight is no longer a weight maintenance diet. Now it's like a weight promoting diet, but there's so much you can do. So, and Barry mentioned really good examples. So might be time to try a new fasting approach. If you're doing a daily intermittent fasting, maybe you want to try like an ADF, ADF type approach where you do alternate day fasting, where you have some days each week where you do a complete fast or like a 500 calorie day. That, that, that would be the alternate day fasting approach, the ADF approach. You could try tightening your fast fasting window, or you could change, you know, what you're eating in your eating window. If you're not one of the nice things about people who, I mean, it depends what you're eating right now, but there's often a lot of really high potential steps that you can change and tweak in your diet to move the needle again. So if you're not eating all whole foods diet, I would definitely try that. If you haven't looked at trying specific macros, so either low carb or low fat, that's something to try via basically I would, basically there's a reason that this is happening suddenly. So there's either addressing it, like addressing the reason if you're, if your diet literally hasn't changed and your fasting literally hasn't changed, then addressing whatever reason that may be, whether it's the lifestyle, the sleep, the hormones, and then also the, you know, it's great because there's like literally so much you can do.

Melanie Avalon
You can address whatever the issue is, and you can also make changes in what you're eating, how you're fasting. So, but yeah, I didn't really appreciate the medication thing until I went on a, went on a medication at one point and I did suddenly gain quite a bit of weight. And I was like, Oh, I was like, this is, I get it now. Like you can literally take a medication and it will just like change your hormones and change your metabolism and you will be eating the same and you will gain weight. It's really, really interesting.

Of course, the flip side can happen. So people take medications and it makes them lose weight. But, uh, yeah. Very, have you ever been in a situation where you suddenly started gaining weight and you hadn't really changed stuff or can you, yeah, has that happened to you?

Barry Conrad
I don't think so. I mean, actually, it's when I started taking Creatine for the first time, actually.

Melanie Avalon
Oh the water weight gain

Barry Conrad
Yeah i was like what the heck is i don't want this is because i had to do something on camera that week is like this is not working for me man because it really like cause you to swell up. So i did find out there that apparently not.

All creating does that did you tell me that no someone tell me that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, well, and I'm not a creatine. Cynthia Thurlow knows a lot more about this, but there's different types.

And like Cynthia's creatine, she would always say that it's not going to make you have that water weight gain effect quite as much.

Barry Conrad
Because I do, I have asked so many guys since then and they all say, oh, that's just part of, that's just normal. That's what comes with it.

I'm like, okay. So you just carry a bit more weight, but it's not necessarily fat. It's just water retention.

Melanie Avalon
I'm glad you brought that up because we were talking a lot about like fat gain. It could very well be like Barry was saying, like a water weight thing.

And that could be from a new supplement, something new in your diet, a lifestyle choice. So the water weight thing is definitely a sodium intake.

Barry Conrad
Because it's really real Mel, and I'm sure that you know from experience as well, you can feel like you've gained a lot of fat, because you look noticeably different, your face is offier, it definitely feels like whoa, I've gained, quote unquote, weight, but it's not fat, there's a difference, you know?

Melanie Avalon
When you think about how much of our body is made of water, it really makes sense that we would see really big fluctuations just based on water. So the average person, for example, is 55 to 60% water. Adult men can be up to 65% water. So that's like a lot of water that can fluctuate around. That's like over half your body is water.

Barry Conrad
It's pretty wild actually to think about it like that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that there were over half water, it was crazy, it was really crazy.

Barry Conrad
I had a visual of like, have you seen the X-Men films? Not really.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Well, I've seen the first two or three. How many are there?

Barry Conrad
There's, I think there's like, yeah, I think there's three main ones with Hugh Jackman.

Melanie Avalon
Is there three and then there's Wolverine and then

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I think, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I loved, I loved X-Men actually.

Barry Conrad
Same. And there's a new one coming up, but I, at the end of the first one, this guy sort of like just turns it to water and like splatters everywhere. So I just had that visual when you were talking about 60%. Yeah, that's wild to think about, but Christine, we don't panic.

I'm sure that you're going to find the reason why Melanie put it so beautifully with those medications and hormonal shifts and whatnot. So we can't wait to hear what the update is.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, let us know. Okay. Shall we have our non, are you ready? Non-degestation, proverbial, but yes, proverbial simulation, breaking up the fast.

Barry Conrad
I'm ready to do all of the above. Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
All right, listeners, friends. So the purpose of this part of the show is because we talk all the time about the benefits of fasting and so much of the benefits of fasting come from the eating period. So this is where we showcase some restaurants that either we've been to or we'd like to try. We talk about how we would order at the restaurants so you can learn how to navigate restaurants, especially if you like to make modifications like me, and we celebrate food because we love food.

So shall we jump in? Let's do it. So Barry, what restaurant do you have for us today?

Barry Conrad
I'm actually really excited about this, well, I am every week, but this week in particular because this restaurant is in the city I am currently in.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. Have you been yet?

Barry Conrad
I haven't. It's called Gimlet, and it's in Melbourne, Australia, listeners. I sent you the link there, Mel. Basically, this spot was housed in the 20s, 1920s. It's got an art deco building, chandeliers, leather boots, marble bars. So, Melanie, I reckon you'd like it.

Think, like, New York supper club vibes meets Euro Bistro, total old-school glam vibes. It's open till 1am of the weekend, which, compared to Sydney, let me just set the scene for you, because Sydney, a lot of things close so early, Mel. I don't know what it's like in Atlanta, but it's too early. Yeah, very early, actually.

Melanie Avalon
How early? Like when restaurants typically close? Like nine.

Barry Conrad
Like, 9.30, like, that's pretty early, like a lot of restaurants closed.

Melanie Avalon
around the weekends.

Barry Conrad
not much later because the kitchens usually just close their time. It's just I don't know why.

1am here, their wine list is award-winning. One of the other reasons I chose this, one of the best in the country. It's got a mix of Aussie and international bottles, and it's run by Andrew McConnell, one of Melbourne's top chefs. So, foods like euro inspired with the modern Aussie twist. Let's get into this menu. Let's do it. Nice. Okay, so you want to go to the Ellicott.

Melanie Avalon
menu. Oh, because the supper menu is a set price menu?

Barry Conrad
There's like no, there's not much on there.

Melanie Avalon
Oh wait, no, it's not a set price. Never mind. It's just okay. Just like a random menu. Are there things though on the upper menu that are not on the all the cart menu?

Barry Conrad
I haven't actually checked yet.

Melanie Avalon
Wait, oh my goodness, my mind is being blown. Autumn menu. Is it fall there?

Barry Conrad
It's a yeah the seasons thing again autumn yeah it is yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Oh man, my favorite season.

Barry Conrad
You like it, you like being cold.

Melanie Avalon
I love the fall. Yeah, it's such a beautiful season. You're going to be living in New York in the fall.

Barry Conrad
And now, apparently the weather right now is super nice. Well, we're in the future when this podcast comes out, but by the time I go, it's meant to be really nice weather.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so I'm looking at the autumn menu in Australia. Appetizer. Hey,

Barry Conrad
I know what you're thinking.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, but okay, they're using the word appetizer, but then they're using entree as an appetizer as well. Okay.

Barry Conrad
And in the main course, yes, it's kind of different. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
and then from the grill. Okay, appetizers. So, oh, look what they have.

Barry Conrad
what's looking good to you from the appetizer slash entree.

Melanie Avalon
They have that beluga caviar from two weeks ago that was at the Michelin restaurant in Disney World at the Four Seasons. Okay, this looks really good.

So for the appetizer, while they have oysters, I never get scallops as my entree at restaurants. I think we've talked about that because it would never be enough, but I will get it as like an appetizer. So I'm torn between the baked scallop and hollandaise and very expensive, but the Giaveri beluga caviar. I guess it depends if I find out that I really like caviar.

Barry Conrad
Okay, what if they're like, you can have whatever you want. You don't have to pay for it. So would you get both of those? Would you just get one of those?

Melanie Avalon
I would get both, yeah. I would get scallop and caviar. How about you? I bet I can guess.

Barry Conrad
Yes, because I'll get a few things.

Melanie Avalon
I think you're gonna want the country sourdough. How did you know? Because I know you so well. And you want oysters. Uh-huh. How many more things do you want from that after that?

Barry Conrad
Well, I saw something else that I like and I don't often see it on menus and I like to make it as well.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, okay.

Barry Conrad
maybe i haven't told you this that i like to it's a really it's a really good snack.

Melanie Avalon
Well i know i know i have it between two and i know it's one of those i feel very confident that it's one of those i just don't know which one it involves like a bread type situation in it right.

Barry Conrad
I don't know, is that enough?

Melanie Avalon
It does. I know it does.

I know it's either the, it's either the anchovy toast or the the no-go frito. It's the, it's the Falma. The anchovy toast. Yeah. That's so funny. I was thinking like avocado toast in my head, but this is anchovy.

Barry Conrad
No, I love a good bread on the table. It's just my thing at a restaurant because I don't like, I pretty much 95% don't buy bread to have. So at a restaurant, I like a good warm, fresh, like hot, like sourdough on the side there.

The anchovy toast is very specific. It's got like, um, pieces of anchovy over like toasted bread. Oh, it's so good. And then I'm also going to get the baked scallop hollandaise. And you know what? I'm going to do the beluga caviar. We'll just need, we need extra of that because it's going to be good. I reckon it'll be really good.

Melanie Avalon
I just had a major epiphany for you, Barry. It's kind of, it's kind of grim. What?

Barry Conrad
Am I NPC again?

Melanie Avalon
No, MPC is not grim. MPC is just because you just mentioned how you're not always like a big bread person, but you do like having it.

You know there's this thing that happens very commonly where when people come to the US, they eat like the bread and stuff like they were eating and they actually start not feeling well from it. This is like the thing. You know this, right?

Barry Conrad
If you didn't know that, because, no, is it like a recent thing or no?

Melanie Avalon
No, no, this is such a thing. So like you will hear all the time and I just this is my mind is kind of being blown because I realize it's probably more like, you know, us people who realize this, but people will say here all the time, like that they can eat bread here, but then they go to Europe and they feel fine.

And they come back and it's like, and I and then on the flip side, I will hear from people in Europe, or like other countries, when they come to the US, they have the bread and they feel like horrible. It's like we are so saturated and glyphosate here that I really think that's what it is. I'm just saying when you come here and you eat all the bread like you've been eating or you eat like the bread you would have been eating, you might find that you feel differently. I'm just saying.

Barry Conrad
Well, I have had bread there before, I haven't felt necessarily bad, you know, maybe more full, but not like bad, bad. So maybe, I mean, I have a pretty robust stomach, I'm South African and we.

Melanie Avalon
You are kind of like, well, you're an NPC, so ignore me. Barry is a non-player character. He's not real.

Barry Conrad
I thought you were going to say when you come to the States and you start eating all the bread, you're going to be like going to gain a whole little weight or something. I thought you were going to say something like that.

Melanie Avalon
No, no, no. I'm saying like, I think you're going to like have a different, you might have a little, and the food in general here isn't as like healthy.

Like there's more additives and more, you might just have a slightly different, or you might be fine. I'm just saying it's kind of, it kind of goes back to the question earlier from Christina with like the sudden waking. I'm just saying if you come here and you suddenly experience a different sort of experience in your body with food, it's not you, it's America. Welcome.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I mean, I definitely know that the food's not generally, hey, I'm not Americans who are listening. I'm not coming for you.

I just know generally the produce is different to Australia and New Zealand, and that's all I'm going to say. But yeah, I definitely know what you're saying, Melanie, without saying it. I don't want the listeners coming for me.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, they won't come for you. I feel like we're all on the same team here.

It's kind of nice because we feel less... Well, I don't want to say it empowers victimhood, but they're going to appreciate that you understand that the cards are stacked against us here in the US with the food situation.

Barry Conrad
I'm going to be pretty simple. Well, pretty simply during the week, as you do as well, like, you know, my daily is going to be pretty quote unquote plain.

But when I go out, I'm just like, you know me, I'll just go for it. But I'm not going to go to a bad place, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. So, okay.

So we got through the appetizers. Let me go back to the menu. Okay, so now we are at the entree, which translation does not mean entree. It means, what does it mean? It means like second appetizer.

Barry Conrad
So basically, listeners, if you haven't pulled it up already, the entree, the main cause, and from the grill, I feel like I'm going to lump that into one main's deal for us. And I think that's going to be, what do you reckon, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
No, the entree is still it's an entree is still a pre main course.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I reckon some people still have that as like people with a small appetite might have that as their main thing, but not for me.

Melanie Avalon
I don't speak this language, okay, so you want anything from the entree section or you're lumping it all together so like okay so now we pick like a so there's not another course we're just we're just jumping to like

Barry Conrad
No, no, no, no, let's do the entree. For the entree for me, I love the look of the raw tuna. That sounds fresh, easy. It's a raw tuna, grapefruit, rock, samphire, and smoked creme fraiche. I don't know if I'm saying that right, but it sounds delicious.

Melanie Avalon
Can I just have a taste of that? You can. Okay. That's what I want because tuna, I get nervous with the mercury, but I will have like a taste I, I love tuna. So.

Barry Conrad
What about you? Do you like the look of any of those entrees?

Melanie Avalon
I think I'm just going to have a taste of yours. Okay. We got a lot of appetizers that I really like, so I think we're good there.

Barry Conrad
And then main course.

Melanie Avalon
and from the grill. Yeah, these kind of go together. Okay, I think I want

Barry Conrad
Okay, what's catching your eye?

Melanie Avalon
I think I will go with the Raven's Creek pork cutlet with on-dive and blood plumb, everything on the side prepared medium. And then I want some sort of steak, as Barry would say, situation.

So I think I'm going to go with the, you know what, I know it's fattier. I was reading all about Wagyu last night, and I know it's fattier, but then I was contemplating how it's actually really high in mono-insaturated fat. And I was like, you know what, maybe it doesn't feel quite as heavy since it's not as high in saturated fat. So I think I might get the Blackmore 9-plus Wagyu sirloin, 200 grams with house mustard and lemon, all of that on the side. I will have some of that mustard. Mustard is like the one sauce I actually will have a little bit of. I love mustard.

And I'll have that rare. And I might not even, since it's Wagyu and fattier, I might not ask for it blue. I might just ask for rare. Interesting.

Barry Conrad
Because I really just I really think you would think the steak here is quite different to over there.

Melanie Avalon
Well, well, here's the thing. Well, so the majority of the steak I eat, I think actually is Australian. Really? Yeah, because I order from ButcherBox and they work with a lot of Australian farms.

Barry Conrad
I can't wait to have ButcherBox as well. ButcherBox, my newie, all of it, because I keep hearing about all of these online.

Melanie Avalon
Maui Nui. You're gonna love Maui Nui. It's gonna be your jam.

You're gonna like, yeah, we should like, we should like propose to them some sort of, I know they already sponsor the show, but we should like, be like, listen, we'll like, do stuff for you. Like, create content. Yeah. MauiNuiVenison.com slash I have podcasts for listeners. It's the best, super lean red meat, really high in nutrition. And you are helping to save the ecosystem in Hawaii because there is a overpopulation problem with the invasive species of the axis deer.

And they harvest or they hunt them in a very sustainable and stress free way. They're amazing. Okay, so sorry, I keep rambling. What what are you gonna have?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to get the Blackmore 9 Plus Wagyu Sirloin 200g with house mustard and lemon medium rare and I'm also going to get the half southern rock lobster baked in saffron rice and sauce royal. That sounds really good!

Melanie Avalon
That sounds really good. That does sound good. It's got saffron. Oh my gosh.

Barry Conrad
And then also there's some veggies and things over there, do you like any of those?

Melanie Avalon
interesting i don't even know what this is what i don't know what. Oh, Pontarell, type of chickpea, Pontarell.

Barry Conrad
So, basically, it's like a variety of chicories, specifically a type of ball to chicory, okay, so it's like a green. It's like greens. Never heard of it before.

Melanie Avalon
So I'm good. I don't... I'm good. How about you?

Barry Conrad
I'm gonna get the kip kip floor potatoes smoked paprika. Oh my gosh, that sounds so good. Definitely doing that

Melanie Avalon
the side. Are you going to get french fries before you leave Australia and come to the U.S. and french fries like wreck you, they're not going to wreck you, you're like amazing.

Barry Conrad
fries? I don't know.

Maybe for the table, but I don't, because you won't have them, so I don't want to just smash those. I probably get the potatoes, and then I'll get, if I get another side, it'll probably be the squash.

That sounds nice. And then, there is a cheese and dessert situation here. Oh, wow. Does any of that look good to you, Mill?

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. Okay.

So true story. So yesterday, was it yesterday or two days ago? Two days ago. Two days ago, I was at my parents' house and my sister had, they had, they had all these cheeses. Cheese to me is just the most divine addictive thing ever. I can't eat, I cannot have a bite of it because I will eat. It's literally like a drug to me, but it smells so good. So if you get cheese, I will like, I will appreciate vicariously through you. Oh, cheese. I just respond to those case of morphine's like, it's not good.

Barry Conrad
I mean, I definitely agree. Like, you know, it's when I'm at like a party or anywhere where there's cheese, I'm just constantly at the table.

Actually, Mel, did you see, speaking of cheese, did you see, I posted on my story like this charcuterie. Oh, I've got to send that to you. At the Beetlejuice after party, there was this like giant, entire table, massive giant, like you would... Of charcuterie and cheese? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
What is your favorite cheese?

Barry Conrad
I do like blue cheese, I like goat's cheese, blue cheese. No, I don't know if we have. What's yours?

Melanie Avalon
Manchego

Barry Conrad
That's pretty good.

Melanie Avalon
So good and the reason, like I said, the reason it's so addictive for some people is because it literally has case of morpions in it, which are like morphine, the purpose is to bond the baby to the mother. Literally, the cheese was made to make you like, light up. So if you feel you can't resist cheese, it's not your fault.

Barry Conrad
What if you bought a small block of it and you couldn't have any more? Would you just have that block or you just don't?

Melanie Avalon
No, because the because the experience of having that cheese, and then not having that cheese, like that, it's that experience after the cheese that just feels so like that. We're talking earlier about the fasting and you know how if you're having flavor things during the fast, it can create like cravings and like a wanting feeling compared to it just being easy.

That's how I am with cheese. Like, I don't want to be in that state of existence. It's not worth it. So I'd rather just like think about it in my head.

Barry Conrad
Hmm, well, I'll have the cheese. Well, I'll definitely get the cheese service.

Melanie Avalon
Please do and I will smell it and appreciate it through you.

Barry Conrad
And then also chocolate fill mill fuel with blackberries and butterscotch anything chocolate. Basically, that's my jam Have to go with that

Melanie Avalon
Perfect. And I will get I'm probably going to have a round two of whatever appetizer I liked the most.

You know, I'm really intrigued by the one of the entrees, the hunter salad, it has duck on it. So like, do they have duck as an option? Like by itself? I might ask if I can get I'll be like from the hunter salad for dessert. Can I just get the hunter salad with only the duck? Wait, wait, let me see it. Okay, can I get the hunter salad with no salad, no quince, no wallet, no wall, sorry, walnut and no radicchio? Yeah, I'm sure they could do that. Okay, that's my dessert. The duck from the salad.

Barry Conrad
That sounds really, and then Mel, if you go to menu again and you click on cocktail, that's not just a cocktail menu. If you scroll all the way to the bottom, you'll see the award-winning Mindless.

I'm going to see if this actually is your jam.

Melanie Avalon
So cocktail, OK, what are you going to get?

Barry Conrad
Oh, wow. Okay. So I am looking now, definitely have to get one of their, well, they do say here that their cocktail is, where is it? Having a look here. Their signature Gimli cocktail is apparently like next level. So I'm going to, because it's, again, trying a new place, I'm going to do that for sure.

And then a second cocktail I'm going to get would be, let's go. Here we go. Uh, having a look now. I'm going to do a Tommy's margarita. Let's see if they can make that spicy for me because it's, I can't see that there. And then I'm going to go down to the wines and scrolling into the wines. It's quite extensive list here. Sparkling champagne, wine, but the glass. Okay. Let's go. I'm trying to find a good, I'm trying to find a pinot grigio situation here.

Melanie Avalon
So basically this, wait, did you find a wine for you?

Barry Conrad
You know what I'm actually going to get as something, a bit of a plot twist here. I actually really like skin contact as well.

So there's also, there's a Ben Haines, Amber skin contact, Pinot Grigio slash Savian Blanc. So I'm going to go with that because that sounds quite nice and South Australia.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, have we talked about Sauvignon Blanc before? Have we talked about this? Do you know that there is really only one white varietal of wine that I don't like?

Barry Conrad
C'est vez blanc!

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.

Barry Conrad
Same actually. That's my least. It's down the bottom of the food chain for me.

Melanie Avalon
You just ordered it.

Barry Conrad
Well i think is it's a slash it's a skin contact pinot grigio slash having a block and i like i like skin contact guy actually and i actually tried that for the first time in new york. A couple years ago skin contact.

Melanie Avalon
Well, what's funny about that is, so for red wines, all red wines are skin contact. So like, it's like a white that's skin contact.

Barry Conrad
It's like, it looks kind of orangey. It's almost like orange. Yeah. So I'm gonna do that. That sounds good.

Melanie Avalon
Well, there's just skin contact. Oh, it's oh, it's a blend of peanut. Okay, that's what you got. It's a blend with peanut grease. Okay, very cool.

For me, I would have to look up. So if listeners are curious how I handle wine lists, I basically, I zone in on the region, the varietal. And then I look and see if it's organic. So there's a few different ones I would look up and see if they're organic. And then I would look up their alcohol content. But basically, the wines in the running would be Laurent, Chard, Chard, Chardigny, Bourgogne, Pinot Noir from Burgundy, the, the Lecorte to Lescon, Chiantes, San Giovanni, the Valentin Cab Franc from Goulburn Valley, Victoria, and the Oh, two more. Okay, oh, I love gamais. So they have a Daniel Boulon-Couvet. Melanie, what? Okay, I think I have to get that the coat to coat to Brulig. You know what, I might just have to get that and like, hope it's organic. But it's, it's my favorite. Well, I love France. It's bougoulet. Gamais is one of my favorites. And the name Melanie is in the title. So I think I'm like putting out putting out vibes that it's organic, because that's what I'm feeling.

Barry Conrad
So good. It sounds good.

Melanie Avalon
I never see Melanie in the name of a wine.

Barry Conrad
How good is that? I wonder if it's any good. It must be good, I reckon. I hope so.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, this looks epic, and so are you gonna go, you think?

Barry Conrad
Well, you know what? There's every chance that I could go because I mean, I've heard all about Gimlet. And so when I found this while I was looking for restaurants, I'm like, maybe I should check this place out.

Melanie Avalon
And how long are you going to be there again?

Barry Conrad
Well, if not, if not this time, because I'm here just for three weeks this time, when I come back for Destiny properly, like the season, two and a half, three months, then I'll definitely get to go then.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, can you get the Melanie wine, please?

Barry Conrad
And try it, and try it, yeah, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, no, you don't have to, but if you want to.

Barry Conrad
I'm going to make a note of it right now actually because I'm going to forget, so I'm literally writing it down when you go to Gimlet.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, excellent find. This was so fun. I hope listeners enjoyed our experience as well.

So okay, so the show notes for today's episode will be at ifodcast.com slash episode 435. They will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And you can follow us on Instagram. I'm Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad. And I think that's all the things. Anything can be very before we go.

Barry Conrad
No, we hope you enjoyed this week's episode everyone and thank you so much. We'll talk to you next time.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, so fun. I will talk to you next week.

Barry Conrad
Sounds good, bye.

Melanie Avalon
Bye! Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

See you next week!

Aug 12

Episode 434 – Protein Politics, Fasting To Reduce Blood Pressure, Is Protein Just For Men, The Simulation Hypothesis, Liver King, Magnesium, Seed, And Serrapeptase Timing, And More!