The Intermittent Fasting Podcast

⁠The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #211 - Christian Drapeau⁠

Welcome to Special Guest Episode 438 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

Dr. Meadows is a dual boarded physician holding certifications in both Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation as well as from the American Board of Electrodiagnostic Medicine. Dr. Meadows has expertise in neurological rehabilitation, musculoskeletal medicine, diagnostic and procedural ultrasound, and electrodiagnostic medicine. His background as a collegiate athlete at the University of California of Los Angeles where he played cornerback and wide receiver for the Bruins, was instrumental in developing his passion for sports performance. He carries what he’s learned in these experiences to develop a unique and scientific approach to patient care where he incorporates principles of exercise, nutrition, supplementation, and recovery guiding patients to maximize their own performance either at the gym or in the work place. His training in Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation gives him a keen understanding of tissue specific modalities for optimal performance and healing. This set him up with a great foundation and a natural pathway towards Regenerative Medicine, where he has focused his most recent efforts into understanding and applying. His Regenerative Medicine approach focuses on best practices for health optimization, injury recovery, and age reversal.

Dr. Meadows has always enjoyed teaching. In residency he was peer-elected to be Chief Resident where he supported curriculum development. He has maintained his academic roles over the years serving as the Associate Program Director for the St. Luke’s Rehabilitation PM&R Residency Program, Clinical Assistant Professor at the Department of Medical Education and Clinical Sciences at the Elson S. Floyd College of Medicine at Washington State University, and Clinical Faculty through the University of Washington School of Medicine. He’s also contributed as an author to major medical texts in the field of Rehabilitation Medicine.

Outside of work, Dr. Meadows puts into practice what he teaches by committing to a life of health and fitness with regular exercise and focus on nutrition. He enjoys strength training including olympic lifting and has recently taken up racing triathlons. He also remains passionate about youth sports by volunteering as a coach for his young children and running athletic development programs for high school and college athletes.

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⁠The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #280 - Christian Drapeau⁠

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 438 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX and author of What, When, Wine, Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine, and I'm joined by my co-host, Barry Conrad. Actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you.

Please remember the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine. If it's that time and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 438 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I am here today with a very special guest that I am so excited about because we are going to tackle a topic that honestly we get questions about all the time and we have never really had an expert on to address it. So the backstory on today's conversation, maybe like a year ago or so, our mutual friend, Ben Greenfield, who has been on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking podcast, introduced me to an incredible doctor, Dr. Cameron Chestnut, and I had him on that show. The topic, he does a lot in the world of cosmetic surgery and cosmetic procedures with a, I would say like a biohacking, like a holistic, a regenerative medicine, a biohacking type approach. And so friends, if you have questions about all the cosmetic things like surgery and fillers and Botox and everything like that and recovery, definitely check out that episode. We will put a link to it in the show notes. So I just had the best time having that conversation and he also has a really incredible following on Instagram that you can check him out. So that was Dr. Cameron Chestnut. In any case, through him, I met another incredible doctor at his practice, Dr. Christopher Meadows, and we did a call to just like learn more about him and what he does and what he focuses on. And his story is really incredible. We're going to talk about it on today's show. He has a background in actually like college football at UCLA. My, um, not my nemesis, but I went to USC, so it's all good. In any case, he has a really incredible backstory of his sports background and then transitioning into this world of regenerative medicine, rehabilitation, recovery, all the things. And with talking to him, I realized he was so educated and nuanced on the role of fasting in surgery, recovery, health in general. And I just knew that this would be a really epic conversation to, to really talk more and dive deep into that. And I'm sure we won't just talk about that. There's so many things that we can talk about. I have so many notes here, but in any case, Dr. Meadows, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for the warm introduction. And I'll try not to hold it against you, our alma mater nemesis here.

Melanie Avalon
know, it's all good. I think we talked about this when we talked. What years were you there at UCLA?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
I was there, I graduated in 2009.

Melanie Avalon
That's right, because we think we might have like, because I was there 2009 as a freshman. So I probably saw you, yeah, play, which is wild because like, especially freshman year, that's, you know, like freshman year is like the year you're like really, really invested.

You go to all the games.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
games. Exactly. In the student section.

Melanie Avalon
Yep, in the student section. Oh my goodness, I'm gonna get emotional. It's all good.

So in any case, with that introduction, yeah, where to start. So well, first of all, I would like to start there. Did you always have goals of playing like sports in college? Because that's a big goal.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yes, I grew up a huge sports fanatic, athlete, loved playing sports, loved watching sports. And from very early on, I knew that I wanted to play college football. I wanted to go beyond that, play in the NFL. That was my dream. So I knew that from a very young age.

Melanie Avalon
It's so interesting, especially like when if you've like been to college, the college football players, I mean, you guys are like celebrities, you know, like if you're like in a class with one, it's like, oh, so yeah, that's really amazing.

And appropriately enough, though, I'm so I actually interviewed last week, Dr. Heather Sanderson, and she has a book called reversing Alzheimer's. She talked about this holistic approach, she actually published, I think the first study that shows their their lifestyle type interventions actually reversed our reverse cognitive decline, I think. One of the things she talked about was just things that you could do, you know, to support your brain, one of which was sports and movement, but only certain types, and one of which was avoiding sports. So she literally was said, like, don't play football.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, the head trauma can certainly be a negative impact. So I mean, it's not a not an easy decision when you're thinking about it.

People ask me all the time because I have two boys and are you going to let your sons play football and right now they're in flag football, which is a growing sport, which is awesome to see and is going to be in the upcoming Olympics. So I'm super excited about that. But oh, it is. Oh, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, I didn't know that.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, so that's a growing sport. And I know in Southern California, it's very popular amongst the youth and much safer environment. Obviously, you're not running and colliding into each other and creating head trauma. So a lot of benefit to that.

So I'm torn on that. We can go into that in more detail in my opinions. But certainly having recurrent head trauma is not beneficial for long term cognitive health. That's for sure.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Did you ever have any intense injuries while playing?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
I always joke when I say this and say, I don't remember. But no, fortunately, I kind of stayed safe. I was a coroner when I played college, so I was in the outside and for the most part avoided big collisions that running backs and linebackers play on a regular basis. So I didn't have too many major head traumas, but there's certainly enough there that I'm going to be paying attention to my cognitive health as I get older.

So what happened?

Melanie Avalon
So you did the football, you had thinking of going to the NFL, what transitioned with your career?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah. So as I started thinking about what I was going to do long-term, of course, I still wanted, you always have to have this vision that you're going to go to the next level, right? If you're not, if you're not actively thinking about how I'm going to get better or how I'm going to kind of try to get to the next level of competition, then you're not really coming with the mentality of competing, right? And so of course, when I was early in my college career, I still had that mindset.

I wanted to go to the NFL, but I started to have more and more conversations about what I'm going to do, you know, from a professional standpoint, what is it you're going to major in and what are you going to do after football is over and thinking realistically about life after. And it's a hard conversation for many of them. You talk with anyone and they all really kind of tunnel visions. Like I don't, what do you mean life after football? What is that? What is that? I don't, I don't know of anything outside of what I'm doing now. That was when, and, you know, along with that, I had a couple injuries and that sidelined me for a bit. And so that's when, you know, things start to hit. You have a little bit of a reality check and say, no, you really need to start putting some thought into this. And I always had interest in health and medicine. I always had this idea that I was going to go into the healthcare field to some degree that I started as physical therapy. I had my, my mindset on that because I had injuries and I was in the physical therapy office and I really liked that environment and helping athletes get back, get back to the field and get better playing. Then unfortunately, I had a shoulder injury that required surgery and I was introduced into a orthopedic surgeon. And that's when I thought, wow, this is really where you want to be. This is the space where you're knowing medicine to its fullest. You're knowing all the ins and outs. You're seeing surgical interventions and getting exposed to the inside of anatomy. And I was just blown away with the surgeon's knowledge and the outcome that I had from my surgery. And so that's when it was determined that medical school was the route for me. And when I made that decision, there's conflict there. There's only so many hours in the day and I could not invest to my athletic skillset as I needed to, to keep up with the competition that was coming in. And so I saw that I was kind of reaching my limit and my peak capacity on the sporting world as I started to put more time and effort into the academics. So there was a challenging time there where I had to come to the realization that my sporting career was coming to an end, at least at the collegiate level. I still maintain my identity as an athlete to some degree and still maintain that pursuit for my general health now. But I knew that I needed to spend more time with my pursuits on the medical side. And so I had my sights set on medical school and that's where we are now.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, so many things. Yeah, I thought about this a lot with the with the whole sport thing and that so I personally, I was never a sport person. I think I like in elementary school, middle school, like I played every sport at least once. I think my dad was convinced if I like, you know, I think he made me play everything at least once because he was hoping I would like like one of them. But I've thought often what you were just talking about, about this identity crisis shift that probably happens because, you know, if you're doing these really grand sports where it becomes your career and your life focus, so football, the Olympics, all the things, then I can't even imagine what it's like for that to just, you know, end for people. So I'm grateful.

I'm grateful that my goals and passions from when I was little weren't things that had a ticking time bomb on, you know, then potentially ending due to like age. I mean, age, I guess, really. Yeah, wow. So kudos to you for the career choice that you made, because that's incredible.

That's no small feat. Are there I have so many questions. So looking back with everything that you've learned, do you approve of some of the rehabilitative work that you experienced when you were a college athlete? Do you shutter at some of it? Would you have done things completely differently? The same? Like, what do you think looking back?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's a good question. And it's tough to say because medicine is changing so fast. You know, there's newer surgical techniques, there's newer treatment options. You know, we live in a world now where regenerative medicine is at the forefront and that just simply wasn't available at that time. I was fortunate, despite all of the injuries that I had, that none of them were surgical except for the one shoulder surgery that I had. So, you know, I've always had the mindset of trying not to undergo surgery if not needed, taking the more conservative approach. That doesn't mean you're not aggressive from a rehabilitation standpoint. You know, undergoing surgery is a difficult task and it's, you know, it requires its rehabilitation process. And so anyways, I was fortunate that I didn't have any major surgical needs at that point. And so I am happy with the rehabilitation protocols that I underwent at that time.

However, if we were to replay that with what's available now, would I have pursued additional techniques or options? I certainly would have. And so that's just, you know, I would have hoped that that would have given me an opportunity to return to the field faster, recover faster, recover to, you know, instead of being at 80%, be at 90%, 95%. So those are some of the things that could be offered in the regenerative medicine space. But again, it's just simply wasn't available at that time. So I think I was in the right hands with what was available at that time. And, you know, again, medicine is just changing so fast. And that's a good thing. We're getting some newer techniques and newer developments. And that's just the way of the world. Things get better with time.

Melanie Avalon
I'll share a little bit of your bio involving your medical career because it's really intense. So you've served as the associate program director for the St. Luke's Rehabilitation PMNR residency program, clinical assistant professor at the Department of Medical Education and Clinical Sciences at the Elson S. Floyd College of Medicine at Washington State University, and clinical faculty through the University of Washington School of Medicine. And you've also contributed as an author to major medical texts in the field of rehabilitation medicine. So not only are you learning it, you know, practicing, but also, you know, teaching as well, your passion with this work that you do.

How do you feel like when you're teaching about it versus like doing the work in clinic? Like where's, where's your heart? How do you feel when you do those different things?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's a good question. I've always envisioned myself as a teacher, even with patients, you know, yes, we're diagnosing disease and we're coming up with treatment protocols, but a huge majority of what we're doing with patients is we're educating. We're educating on the background of the disease process. We're educating on what the expectations are moving forward. What are the outcomes with various treatment options that patients are pursuing? So there's always an underlying theme of being a teacher as a physician.

And so that's always been something that I've carried with me and I've had a natural inclination to be able to share knowledge to patients in a genuine way, in a way that's understandable. And that's carried over into the educational side for, you know, learning physicians. So residents, resident physicians who are young physicians that have chosen the specialty in physical medicine and rehab, which is what my specialty is, I've been able to, you know, have the privilege to take them kind of under my wing, so to speak, and to teach them the pearls that I've learned over time. And that includes lecturing, that includes having them in clinic with me and allowing them the exposure of the clinical pearls that I have. And it's just so natural for me to share that with them. And it's fun to see how they develop over time and improve on their skill sets. And when you see light bulbs go off and they start to make these connections and they feel confident in their skill sets, they feel confident in their abilities to take care of patients. I mean, that's such a gratifying experience for me. So I love doing that. So it extends in both, in both realms, both in front of patients and how I'm educating them, which is a unique skill set, but also teaching residents as they grow up to become full blown attendings. And so they're both fun for me.

Melanie Avalon
I love this so much. This is literally what I look for. Honestly, whatever I'm trying to find a doctor for whatever it may be, because I think especially in today's conventional healthcare system, it can often feel very, you know, systemized and like there's not usually a dialogue that easily can happen between the patient and doctor at least in my experience again with like the conventional system. And so what I'm always looking for is a doctor that is, you know, learning and educating and having those conversations. And so this is just the best of both worlds. So thank you.

Before we get into some questions about, you know, surgery and recovery in general, what type of procedures do you actually do?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, so my practice is primarily in the orthopedic space. In physical medicine rehab, we train to be experts of the musculoskeletal system as well as the nervous system. And so we learn in detail pathologies of tendon, pathologies of joints, pathologies of nerves. And so within that, you know, again, with my background in the sports medicine world, that was my interest is I wanted to treat patients and athletes to help them recover, help them improve, help them to get back on the field, you know, and recover from injury or even prevent injury.

So a majority of the patients that I see are coming to me with joint related concerns, tendon related injuries, whether acute or overuse injuries. And so in my practice, I do a lot of diagnostic ultrasound that is really key for my evaluation process because it allows me to see the structures underneath and no radiation involved, no real significant side effect profile. So I can just at the bedside see what's going on with muscle, see what's going on with tendons and joints. And from there, make really clear diagnoses to whatever issues are going on. And so if we do find a pathology, then we can talk about treatment options, which are primarily peripheral joint injections or tendon injections. And so this is where we get into what's available regarding regenerative treatment approaches, including things like PRP, PRF, stem cells. And so the majority of treatments that I offer are bedside ultrasound guided injections to areas of pathology to stimulate regenerative capacity.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. And then would you ever do surgery or refer out for surgery?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, so I'm not a surgeon myself, so I can refer out to surgeons if that's needed.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. So okay, big question here, because I feel like there's two, you know, two big camps of, and this is me not, I mean, you're doing this every day, so I might be wrong with these camps, but I would envision there's like two big camps of people, people who, you know, have a recent injury and, you know, they know it caused it and it's fresh, it needs to be addressed.

And then these people with chronic injuries, you know, like shoulder pain that never went away or whatever it may be, is there a different, do you have a different approach to addressing something that happened more recently compared to something that somebody's been struggling with for a long time?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's such a good question. And you're absolutely right. These are different pathologies, there's different mechanisms of injury that result from these different scenarios that you describe. So in an acute injury, you have usually a trauma or you have, you know, some sort of abnormal position that a person was placed in. Oftentimes we're talking about in an athletic competition, you know, there's a mechanism of injury that you can see clearly caused an injury.

And that is vastly different from a chronic overuse injury. So use the example of shoulder pain, an individual who's had shoulder pain, maybe 15 years, 20 years, maybe has had a couple of acute issues there where they fell on it or something, but never really had any significant trauma that required surgery or anything. And so it's been a long time of just recurrent injury pain that's never really gone away. Maybe you've tried therapy here and there, and it's just lingered. So that type of progression is dramatically different. If you look at these different types of pathologies under a microscope, you would see totally different types of immune responses. You would see different types of changes to tendon or to cartilage. And so certainly you would not want to have the same approach because they're completely different. And how you address that, how you choose to utilize whatever your treatment protocols are, are going to be very different in those two circumstances.

Melanie Avalon
For the chronic example, have you found when you do your investigation or ultrasound, you know, you isolate what the problem may be. How much of it is a one-to-one for you can see the problem and that correlates to what the person is experiencing versus how much can be, I don't want to say in their head, but you know, we have this concept of like phantom pain or, you know, people who will ongoing injuries, but when you actually look at it, it might not signify that that would be what they're experiencing. Like, so how is it usually like you see the problem and it's pretty obvious or is it sometimes not?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's a good question. And that's that's the challenge to the clinician is in particular when I'm doing diagnostic ultrasound, oftentimes, I'm finding lots of pathology, I'm seeing lots of different areas of abnormality. And the trick is to say, well, which one of these is actually causing the pain. And that's one of the nice things about ultrasound is that I can just do this at the bedside.

And I can actually have you move and I can say, well, why don't you show me what causes the pain and I can see it immediately under ultrasound and find that oh, this bursal gets all punched up, pinched up, and it gets, you know, inflamed, I can see it bulging out under certain movements. And so you get both ends of those spectrums where on the one hand, there's multiple abnormalities, and I have to figure out which one it is. And on the other end, you say, wow, well, this is a relatively normal exam, I'm not seeing anything, and trying to tease out, you know, how much of this is, you know, inorganic versus something that's made, you know, come from somewhere else. And you mentioned phantom and oftentimes, I don't run into too much phantom pain, but I do run into referred pain, which is pain that can be kind of your nervous system is designed to sense pain and tell you, hey, that's coming from this location. But when it comes to and that's, that's easily recognizable on your fingertips or something that has a high sensitive high nerve innervation ratio. But you know, your joints can be particularly difficult to really pin down, you know, oftentimes says, well, my whole knee hurts, it just kind of hurts everywhere. And that's where things get a little bit more challenging. But again, when you can see things under ultrasound that does help you, it is challenging when you say, or when you have a case that you just don't see any abnormality and trying to pin out, well, what is it exactly that's going on in those require a little bit more workup. But that is the challenge for the clinician to, you know, go through a thorough physical exam and a thorough diagnostic ultrasound to really find that and I find myself on the opposite end of that spectrum more often than not, which is I'm finding multiple areas of abnormality. So which one is it that we think is actually causing your pain?

Melanie Avalon
Interesting. So, you know, some areas are, like you said, are abnormal, but they actually might not, but they're not causing symptoms. Correct.

With those types of things, is it fine to just, like, let that go then? The ones that aren't causing symptoms?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, you don't want to over-treat and you don't want to diagnose pathology or create diagnoses that aren't there. I don't want to make bigger issues than they are.

At the end of the day, when we think about pain and function limitations, those are really the areas that patients, I want to feel better, I want to be free of pain, and I want to be able to do XYZ, right? And so that's what I'm here to do, is help you get back to functioning or get back to your exercise regimen or get back to playing with your kids, whatever it is that you have interest in doing that you're being limited because of this pain, that's ultimately the goal. And so if I go and treat other areas that aren't bothering you or are not pain limiting, then we're not really achieving a whole lot. Now you could argue on the other side, and I do see this, where patients would say, well, why don't we just treat that from a preventative standpoint? And so we have to have those conversations on what to expect, what are our expectations in doing a preventative treatment approach? And so that's also a different conversation and a different regenerative mentality to think about when we're just doing preventative treatment as opposed to treating something that's abnormal and trying to get us back to function and reduce pain. So there's just different buckets of patient populations and different approaches to take in those circumstances.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I can totally see, especially in the biohacking community, you know, like for me, for example, if I were to see all the things, I'd be like, Oh, I will. Well, I want to fix all the things.

I've had an interesting experience because I have like a tight shoulder knot that is kind of always there. And I also get kind of, I get not too much pain, but tension and some issues, but it's all on the right side of my body. And every time I've had any sort of scan done by whoever is, you know, analyzing it, they've always told me the problem, same with like my mouth, like I have TMJ issues on my right side, I'm always told the issue is actually on the left side. And so that it's, and so that's what one of the reasons I've been so intrigued by, you know, the experience of the pain versus where it's actually coming from, because that always blows my mind when they told me that about things.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's such a that's such a good point.

And then on the other side of that is, you know, when it comes to imaging and when you say you've had imaging, are you talking about ultrasound or x rays or MRIs or all of the above?

Melanie Avalon
So I've had MRIs, X-rays, I don't know if I've had ultrasound, definitely X-rays and an MRI.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah. And these are the things that we always talk about, you know, when I'm working with residents and doing some teaching, we have to be cautious on two fronts when it comes to imaging and these, you know, advanced imaging like MRI, they're static positions, you know, and oftentimes not normal positions, you're lying down and, you know, sitting there for 45 minutes while the magnet is spinning around you.

And it's oftentimes, you know, you wonder, well, what happens if we were to change positions, because there's always this standard position to be in, we think about that all the time when it comes to low back pain or neck pain, and we do an MRI of the spine. And you say, well, this person is laying down what happens when they flex forward? Or what happens when they side bend? And what kind of changes are you going to see in these different positions that could show more of what's going on? But again, going back to my previous topic about not over diagnosing things, you can't call every pathology that you see, there's a certain range of normal, right? And you say, okay, well, this disc is a little bit big here, or this disc height is a little bit, you know, small here, you have to really be a clinician and think about what is actually outside of our range of normal, and what is it that's truly causing this pain and discomfort. And so when you say, well, I have pain on the right side, but they always say it's the left side that bothers me, that doesn't mean you go and start treating the left side, you can, you know, focus on the side that's giving you problem, maybe you look somewhere else.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, this is it's so fascinating to me. Quick question, because I actually appropriate timing. Yesterday, I got back a lot of data from a genetic sequencing. Actually, they're called sequencing was the company. And it generated all of these different reports for my, like my genetic tendency for different disease risk categories. And I was pretty much in the clear for most things, with some exceptions.

And one was which I, my, my mom has really experienced actually a lot of people in my family have had issues with arthritis, that type of pain. I came back like in the red for all of that, which I found was really interesting. So my question, I have not experienced that I'm aware of any arthritis pain to the at this point. But the role of genetics and epigenetics in any given situation. So when you when you see a person, like, like, how much do you look at their genetic data? Does it even matter their genetic data because of the power of epigenetics? How do you feel about the role of genetics and pain?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's a good question. And genetics can certainly be an additional piece of information that can help guide you. And that could be in a circumstance, well, we see all these pathologies and we know what your genetic profile is, maybe it does make sense for us to be more aggressive and talk about what sort of procedures would be helpful or exercise routine or dietary approaches. So I don't do that standard with most of my patients.

If we do have, you know, you get a history and you talk with patients about what's going on, like you mentioned, you have a family history of arthritis. So going into that history can help to say, you know, maybe we should explore this a little bit more or you have patients that have recurrent injuries and you think, gosh, well, why is it that you're, you know, you're back again and now it's your left shoulder and we've already treated both knees and the right shoulder and now you start to kind of, you know, raise your eyebrows as to is there anything else going on? And you might think about doing some genetic testing to see, you know, a lot of those things give some good information and can certainly be additional pieces of information to maybe augment your approach and, and think about being a little bit more aggressive from a preventative standpoint, both from a treatment and preventative standpoint. So those are certainly helpful. We do that with a part of our practice is functional medicine where we do that, you know, more routinely for all of those patients. It's not routine for my patients with the exception of these circumstances that we think, gosh, we need to do a little bit more investigation to see if there's something underlying.

Melanie Avalon
Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, when I got the report back, I was like, well, that makes sense based on what I know from my family history. And still, like, I don't ever want to feel destined by my genes that, you know, I'm going to manifest a certain condition because I think people have so much agency, you know, with what they with their lifestyle.

So when you're working with, you know, this population with pain, what is the role? So you mentioned like, you know, different types of injections, and we can definitely talk about those. And also at the same time, what is the role of the lifestyle that the patient is following? Is there, does that majorly affect either way, the effectiveness of the treatments that you're doing?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's a good question. And this goes to my approach regarding treatment of patients, which is not a single modality. I just don't think of treatment with patients as a single modality, one size fits all type of approach.

And you mentioned earlier the introduction regarding Dr. Chestnut's approach to recovery, which is this multifaceted, you know, post pre and post-operative rehabilitation or recovery. And I think the same in my space on the rehabilitation side that a procedure is one piece of the puzzle. It's also thinking about your biomechanics and how you're moving. What made you susceptible to this injury? And what is it that we can augment in other areas from a nutritional standpoint or from an exercise regimen standpoint? Now, not every patient is really interested in going into that much detail or that much depth for their recovery, but those that are receptive and really want to approach this from a multifaceted approach and thinking about all of these additional areas, then that's when we can really have good conversation regarding, well, I'm going to do a procedure. I think this is going to help. But if we also do this exercise regimen on top of that, particularly when the first, you know, handful of days after a procedure where things are inflamed, but I want to keep things circulating. I want to keep muscles active. I want to keep tension on the tendons. All of those things are going to help in the efficacy of your treatment, regardless of what it is, whether we choose to do a PRP or a stem cell injection. They're going to support and augment your recovery process to help things not only recover faster, but allow for the full efficacy, the full potential of the treatments that we're doing. So I do have those conversations with my patients regularly.

Melanie Avalon
And so you actually touched on something I had a big question about. So you mentioned, you know, this inflammatory state that people can be in. What is the role? I'm very haunted by this actually.

So I think people are pretty familiar with the idea of acute versus chronic inflammation and you know how acute inflammation is actually in theory, a healing process. Like it has a purpose there compared to chronic where it's just not going away and it's creating more damage in that initial injury phase where there's inflammation or even like inflammation, post-surgery, whatever it may be. What is the role of like reducing and suppressing that inflammation versus letting it play out? Like, do you need that inflammation?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's such a good question. And my perspective is that we do want that inflammation when we acutely injure something. You know, you say you're walking, you sprain your ankle, for example, and it gets swollen, it gets red and hot and uncomfortable. The pain sensitization goes up, so you're more sensitive to any stimuli. And that's part of the initial inflammatory phase. And this is part of the healing cascade. And you want it to naturally transition from that inflammatory phase into the proliferative phase and the remodeling phase. Those are your phases of wound healing. And you want it to do that.

And there's, when I was in medical school, actually, we had a lot of conversations regarding acute fractures and what's the role of anti inflammatory, specifically NSAIDs, which is like your ibuprofen, your Aleve, your aspirins, those sorts of medications, which are intended, they're anti-inflammatories, they go in and they block the inflammatory response. And you will feel better, it reduces the pain, it reduces the swelling. But what impact, what potential negative impact does it have by skipping the steps to go through the rest of the wound healing cascade? And so I still maintain that approach. I'm not a big fan of utilizing anti-inflammatories in the acute phase. We can talk about the post procedural approach that I have as well. But the natural cascade of the inflammatory process that peaks after an acute injury and is allowed to go through its full progression will allow for the maximal amount of healing that is necessary for that area. Now, if we have recurrent trauma, or we get back to play or sport too soon, and we now have recurrent injury, and a now low grade inflammatory response, and it swells up again, and we have more pain, and whenever I do this, it really swells up and starts to bug me. You know, those are those are signs that we've not allowed for full healing, we've not allowed this to to fully recover. And so we need to be more aggressive with our rehabilitation, we need to maybe scale back on the activity, we need to scale back on the intensity of exercise or what have you. And we want that inflammatory phase to fully subside to fully come down and allow maximal healing before we start to put in more stresses. But so again, I am against I am against the idea of trying to blunt that response just to allow for improvement in symptoms.

Melanie Avalon
And what about so you're talking in the role of, you know, like pharmacological insets and things, what about if people were to do, you know, high dose, I don't know, turmeric, and, you know, omega threes and cold exposure, what about those ways of doing, you know, creating an anti inflammatory response during the inflammatory phase?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's a good question and that kind of stems from where the inflammation is coming. I think when people are doing those, they're talking about systemic inflammation and what's going on, you know, full body cardiovascular health, overall metabolic health. And I think those are great for that type of inflammatory response, the systemic. Those are also great when we have infection or wounds and they can help to reduce the inflammation. What's nice about those is they don't blunt the inflammatory response in the same way.

When we talk about NSAIDs, we're talking about direct implication or direct inhibition of specific cellular mechanisms of the wound healing response, so specifically platelets, which are the main responder in that inflammatory phase. And so when we have medications that are going after and inhibiting them directly, then, you know, that can have a negative implication moving forward. But when it comes to these more, you know, herbal remedies, the turmeric, those sorts of supplements that we're taking, they don't have the direct inhibitory response that you see with these sorts of pharmacologic approaches. So they're not as negatively impactful. They do not blunt the immune response in the same manner. They do not impact the wound cascade in the same manner. So I don't see any reason with having to worry about taking those in the acute phase and they can potentially support that inflammatory process as well.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Okay.

And I don't know if this is specifically in your wheelhouse, but it's a question that I have all the time and I actually had today and it kind of relates, so I'll just go ahead and ask it. So I often will do M-sculpt for like muscle building, and I usually do like a cryotherapy session right after. Do you have thoughts on the post, you know, strength training session doing anti-inflammatory type things? Does that hinder muscle growth? And this is a tangent question, but I don't know if you have thoughts on that.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, same similar process, right? When we think about an exercise regimen, we are, again, causing an acute inflammatory response. Now, it's not as robust as the ankle sprain example that I gave earlier, but it is still causing muscle damage.

You're having tissue and tendon injury that is of lower grade and is creating a stimulus for remodeling such that we can get stronger, right? Muscular hypertrophy and tendon strength. When it comes to, there's good literature out there regarding the blunting effects that cold plunge can have after strength or cold therapy can have after strength training with specific to the hypertrophy and strength gains. So that's out there. When it comes to body composition, I think there's less impact that that has from a negative standpoint. It's not going to impact that as much, but we know that the cold exposure can blunt that strength force development and hypertrophy effects. So that is something to think about, but it's not hugely robust and it's not a big thing to worry too much about, but it can.

Melanie Avalon
There's basically from what I've seen, there's just enough studies to make me like nervous about it, you know, okay, that that all that all makes sense. Also, while we're existing in the the lifestyle realm.

So fasting and this is something you and I talked about, talked about on the phone and something that I get questions all the time about. So what do you see the role of fasting so intermittent fasting on people's, I guess, inflammatory state pain state, and in particular, recovery from injuries, surgery, I can ask more specific questions, but in general, just fasting. Is that something that you recommend to patients that you like? What are your thoughts on it?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, I'm a huge fan of fasting. I do it personally for primarily for metabolic support. So that's where I really got introduced into fasting and its potential for, you know, supporting insulin sensitivity, supporting cardiovascular disease, blood pressure, lowering, etc, etc. So that's my introduction to fasting was in that realm.

But what's been fun to see is how that's really carried over into the regenerative medicine space where fasting has been shown to support stem cell health, support stem cell number and regenerative capacity. And so, you know, talking with patients, again, if they have interest in pursuing this, fasting is a great potential additional tool that you can use to help regenerate. And in my space with doing peripheral joint injections or tendon injections, the recovery state like the, you know, caloric requirements post procedural is not significantly high. And if you can add a fasting, you know, a period of time of fasting after procedure, it can certainly help with that regenerative process. So we do talk about that with patients. Again, we have we have a variety of patients and their perspectives and their interest in doing that. But it's also well known that if we support the metabolic health of patients that their regenerative capacity is going to improve. So when we say, well, your fasting is not only going to support the recovery from this process, but from a general health perspective, your stem cells are going to be more effective, you're going to have more numbers of them. And they're going to be the capacity for regeneration is going to be higher and support you for the recovery of this injury, but also the prevention of future injuries and risks of future injuries. It's a great tool to use, obviously, it's low cost, and it's not a significant burden to anybody outside of the discomfort that you have when you're fasting. And you know, you can you can scale that back and have a different duration of time for which you do undergo a fasting window. But it is a great tool to use and use it regularly with my patients for the recovery and regeneration aspect.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome and something you said in there is like the question that we get from people which is you mentioned if the caloric needs or the you know protein needs I'm not sure I think you said caloric needs aren't too high. How can people know if they're in that state or not with it like a surgery in particular?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, and that's where things get a little bit more challenging when you think about surgical states because these are more intense, you know, if you have a surgery, the catabolic aspect of that is so high and you really want to ensure that you have good caloric supplementation to meet the anabolic aspect of it that comes after the surgery. And so your surgeries are generally listed as mild, moderate to severe when we think about risk of perioperative surgical interventions. So that's one tool that you can use, but the duration of the surgery along with the location of the surgery can be a big factor to help you decide whether or not you want to embark on a fasting. Of course, you would want to talk with your surgeon to see. It's not uncommon, of course, as you know, you would be fasted going into the surgery, right? You're usually not eating by midnight the night before of a surgery. So you do go into your surgery, you know, varying degrees of having a fasted state. If you're eight in the morning, not as much, but maybe you have a 3 p.m. surgery and so you're fasted for a little bit longer. And if it's a pretty major surgery, they might keep you without eating until you have movement of bowels and you're starting to pass gas. And that's the typical kind of thought process around almost all surgeries.

But when you have things that are intra-abdominal or intra-thoracic, you're really getting into these large surgeries that fasting is probably not going to be a beneficial approach for you to take. Once you can start eating, you really want that caloric supplementation to help the recovery process and the protein supplementation, as you mentioned. So those are big aspects of the healing cascade that you want to make sure you're not limiting your body in addition to the micronutrient demand that you will have at that time. You know, zinc and magnesium, all of these micronutrients that you want to make sure you have in, you know, an abundance so that you can maximize your recovery. But it also is not uncommon for patients to fast in advance of a surgery to be going into it in a slightly fasted state. And the idea around that is having higher levels of ketones, which ketone bodies can be great for recovery as well. But as far as knowing what threshold, there's not a clear line of what the threshold is for what type of surgery, but those would be the considerations. If it's something intra-abdominal, if it's something intra-thoracic, the duration of surgery, those are going to be things that are going to help determine whether or not you would want to have a perioperative fasted state. If it's something that's really relatively minor, that maybe is on the periphery or cosmetic, that might be a better option to seek a fasted state in, you know, pre- or post-surgical.

Melanie Avalon
Actually, and a question related to that because you're, you know, you're talking about speaking with your surgeon about, you know, what is the best approach for people to implement with fasting and, you know, that lifestyle. We actually got a question, it kind of relates, what can people do?

This is not the question, I'll read the question, but if people are having a surgical procedure done, again, in the conventional medical system, what can they do to know how to appropriately integrate different recovery methods. So be it fasting, be it more regenerative things like that that we can talk about, but I'll read this question that will kind of like illuminate what I'm saying. So Macy, for example, she said, I literally had surgery yesterday and the biggest struggle has been finding out what works for post surgery protocols. My doctor who's totally supportive didn't feel comfortable with giving me timeframes for PEMF or red light therapy. It's a fine line to want to utilize all the tools at your disposal, but also not wanting to negatively impact recovery. So I can see this situation probably being pretty common for people because, you know, not everybody is always getting these procedures done with, you know, somebody like your practices approach. So how can people know like what they can be doing on their own to help their recovery in the more regenerative sphere?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that's such a good question. And I think it's difficult to say where patients can, you know, it's hard to make blanket statements to say, this is what you can do.

I mean, this is what I run into in my practice quite regularly, actually. It was where patients are having surgery and they're saying, what can I do to support my surgery, my recovery? What can I do in the weeks leading up to my surgery? What can I do post-operatively? And it is really unique to the specific surgery and, you know, what was intervened on to know what is gonna be safe and effective. For the most part, I mean, thinking about, and it's not, you know, again, seeing doctors that just don't have as much knowledge in this space kind of be uncomfortable. And so I do talk with patients about that who we would do consults with and say, here's what's gonna be great. And then having the collaborative conversation with the surgeon, if we need to, to say, here's what I'm thinking, this is what I would do, and here's what our potential side effect profile is gonna be. And most of these are really low risk when you think about PEMF and red light therapy, you know, again, depending on the location of the surgical incision and what it looks like. The one that really requires a little bit more knowledge around is gonna be hyperbaric because of the pressure involved. And so when you're thinking about intrathoracic surgery, you know, I had a recent patient who had a resection of a portion of the lung, and you know, you certainly would not want to increase intrathoracic pressure by putting in patient in a hyperbaric and you can run into some problems there. So that's one that you would certainly wanna look out for. But for the most part, there's not a whole lot of risk, but these are conversations that I would advise to speak with a provider who's knowledgeable in this space. And if there are any questions that come up, you know, they can contact the surgeon and they can have that dialogue as far as what would make the most sense. And it goes beyond some of those modalities, right? It's also nutrition and supplementation and medications, postoperatively, pain control, bowel support, hydration status, I mean, all of those things are factors that you wanna think about.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Yeah, I think it's, it can be hard for people, especially because if people are wanting to use like insurance and it can be hard to find like the dream, you know, doctor who can do the surgery and also be really knowledgeable on all of these more holistic approaches that people can be doing.

So going back to what you were saying you do a lot of in your clinic with the injections, you said, is it stem cells, exosomes? What type? Is it actually stem cells?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
We do stem cells, exosomes, PRP, PRF.

Melanie Avalon
So what's the latest on the stem cell legality situation?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
That's a good question. You know, this language around whether or not stem cells are legal or illegal I think is not really the right verbiage.

There are FDA approved pathways to utilize stem cell products and they are available here in the United States. You don't have to travel abroad to get stem cell products. But you know, there are certain requirements and tissue handling and tissue, you know, practices that need to be utilized that's overseen by the FDA. And as long as you're following suit and following those guidelines, you're well within the means to utilize stem cell products, exosome products for tissue repair for treating patients.

Melanie Avalon
And what do you see the timeline of healing or resolving of pain with these approaches? So I actually, I've had one stem cell treatment. I did something to my knee, I guess in like 2021 maybe. And the pain just, it was really bad at the beginning. And then it was just kind of chronic, like it would act up, especially if I wore heels or it just always, yeah, it would act up essentially.

And I got a stem cell injection like directly into it. And the thing that's hard for me to gauge is I can confidently say now that it's gone. Like it doesn't flare up. I don't feel it anymore. But it's hard for me to know if it would have been gone anyways because of the time.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
That's so good, yeah, you're exactly right and so I guess your question is like what is the expected timeframe for resolution of pain or symptoms for some of these issues and certainly it depends primarily on what the initial injury or what the pathology is. As we talked about earlier, in acute injury, you sprain your ankle, I'm expecting that to get better with time as long as we give it the right environment and we can try to augment that to speed it up but as we've all experienced, you get an acute injury and hopefully that heals well with time.

Then on the other end of the spectrum, you may have an injury or something just kind of gradually starts to bother you and before you know it, it's been a couple years and you try some therapy, it doesn't work and now it's five years and it just keeps lingering and you kind of try to do some measures but nothing seems to be working and those are where it gets a little bit more complicated because when you run into these degenerative conditions, you know we talked about arthritis earlier, these are conditions where the cartilage is starting to wear down, the tendon is getting a little bit more frayed and thick and tender and these types of injuries are really the ones that are more challenging to deal with and it's no secret that there hasn't been and you mentioned the traditional healthcare space, there have not been great tools to try to help these conditions. We have steroid which is great, again just like the anti-inflammatories, it's going to reduce the inflammation, it's going to reduce pain and you're going to feel great but it offers no regenerative capacity and it does not allow for, it certainly doesn't offer anything from a regenerative standpoint.

So when we think about how we're going to approach these chronic conditions, we have to say, you know this is a little bit more, it's going to take a little bit more time to reduce the pain and to improve function and it's not the same approach that has historically been where I'm going to reduce pain and you're going to feel better tomorrow. No, this is going to take some time, we're going to have to invest into this a little bit again thinking about all of the multifactorial ways in which we can approach this, lifestyle intervention, etc.

But when you look at the research out there around different regenerative products, the outcomes seem to peak around six months. So it's again, it's not a quick fix, it's something that takes time.

And when you look back historically at these patients that have been suffering with pain for five years, ten years, when they have improvement in symptoms immediately after, not immediately but you know three to six months after a procedure, you can directly correlate that to the procedure that was done because most of the time these patients have tried everything that's available and have not had sustained relief. And now the studies are going out to three years, five years and even seven years where you're seeing that persistence of pain reduction and improvement in function.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
So you're starting to see the long-term benefits of these as well.

So that's what's exciting about this because it's allowing for long-term healing, long-term pain reduction, long-term improvement in function and not just the quick pain relief that is seen or the alternative being a surgical intervention, you're not seeing that same sort of potential and healing in those spaces that you are with the regenerative techniques that we have.

Melanie Avalon
Actually, so hearing all that, that's really, you've really got me thinking because like with my injury experience, it was, it was probably a probably a year of the chronic, you know, flaring pain, and then doing the stem cell. And then, you know, six months later, it basically being gone, but also not knowing if it would have been gone either way.

But I actually just pulled up, I totally forgot about this, we did do a scan of my knee. And they saw because you when this was when you mentioned like the cartilage going away, they meant they saw that that was degenerating where the injury was. I just looked at my, I mentioned earlier the genetic, you know, tendency for arthritis, and it segments it into knee arthritis, hip arthritis and wrist arthritis, and knee arthritis is the one I have like a super high risk for. So I'm just thinking about it retroactively. And I feel like I got that injury, it looks like genetically, I'm very prone to knee arthritis, and I was definitely headed in that direction. And then I mean, if I don't experience it at all anymore, I should get a, well, I don't know what the radiation of that, I would be curious if the cartilage has changed or reversed.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, that would be interesting and that's where things are really starting to get exciting from the regenerative medicine space because like I said, when we look at outcomes, a majority of the outcomes, the ones that we really care about is if I can improve your pain and improve your function, right? Because that allows you to live the life you want.

Now secondarily, there are studies out there that look at pre and post ultrasound or pre and post MRI, which is what you're referring to is like what would happen if I repeated the MRI? Would there be any significant change in the thickness of that cartilage that was noted earlier? And studies are showing that, that there's improvement in cartilage thickness and where there were cartilage lesions, they're resolved and that's where things are really exciting and that again shows you the potential, the power that these treatments have and again contrast that with a corticosteroid injection, which can actually be catabolic and actually worsen some of the cartilage that you have there.

So that would be interesting. If it's an MRI, it wouldn't be any significant radiation, actually zero radiation because it's just an MRI. So it's magnetic, it's not the radiation that you experience with the CT or X-rays. So if you wanted to do that, you should feel comfortable doing that.

Melanie Avalon
I wonder, because the initial scan I got, I got at the Urgent Care, would those type of places have an MRI machine?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
No, they're usually CT scanners or x-rays, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so I'm actually I'm very curious now. Okay.

And then for listeners, I will put a link in the show notes. I've done a few episodes entirely just on stem cells. And it's so fascinating the the healing potential with those. Do you do them like for yourself to yourself?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yes, I've had, oh my gosh, so I've had knee injuries, you know, these are the injuries that put me in the physical therapy office and that stimulated my medical career, but I've had MCL and meniscal injuries on both sides. I'm dealing with a meniscal injury on my left side that fortunately for me doesn't cause any significant pain or, you know, functional limitations.

So I'm fortunate on that front, but I am very active in trying to prevent that from giving me any problems in the future.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, and do you find the patient success rate, does it work for most people? Some people, does it not?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, we're getting good results. Our patients are regularly coming to us and saying how they've improved. So again, but it's not immediate. We have to give it time.

We have to invest into it. And you have to be proactive in supporting your stem cell therapy with all of the other additional factors. And so that's where we get the best outcomes. But it does take time. Patients usually don't experience anything in the first couple weeks. You're kind of thinking, okay, not seeing a whole lot, but just things gradually improve with time. And I have a unique approach to the way I deliver stem cells, partnering it with PRP and kind of leading up again to kind of improve the environment for which stem cells are introduced. But in looking back patients, we have a really good success rate with stem cell therapy across the board. We treat a lot of knees. You mentioned that knee osteoarthritis is probably the number one condition we see. And it responds very well to stem cell therapy.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, okay. And I'm looking at the recommendations for the knee arthritis in the in my genetic report and it's telling me not to wear high heels which are like my favorite thing.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
That's a challenge.

Melanie Avalon
I know. Do you work with a lot of women, men, like the population? Yeah, both, both. Do you tell the women not to wear high heels?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
You know, unfortunately, that is a challenging one. Sometimes it's knee and sometimes it's ankle foot, you know, they can really start to cause some discomfort of the foot. Obviously, footwear is important. You know, we have to choose our battles and we all have our, you know, vices.

So, you know, it's not that I'm trying to change anybody's appearance or try to change people's lifestyle, you know, you're doing the best you can. And we have to make there's a give and take there, you know, so I try to meet patients where they're at and say, you know, if this is what you want, we just have to acknowledge that these are the potential. Consequences of that and, you know, patients are reasonable and they say, you know, okay, I can expect them. I can accept that this is might not be the best thing for me, but I'm willing to make that sacrifice and address, you know, deal with the consequences after that. And that's fair.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I feel like my approach, you know, if I was in a position where I was wearing them every single day, I think I would definitely want to rethink that. I typically just go out like once a week though.

So I feel like the happiness that I get from wearing the high heels, you know, brings some benefit to my life. So.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and those are the exactly those are the give and take that we give so that's that's that's okay

Melanie Avalon
Also, another question, actually, no, really quickly, so the PRP, what layer does that add to it?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
So, the thing about, let's take knee osteoarthritis, for example, this is a great example of a space that is a chronic inflammatory state. If you sample the synovium of arthritic knees, the pH is low, so it's an acidic environment. It has a lot of cytokines that are pro-inflammatory, so these are signaling molecules that are continuing to stimulate that inflammatory response that we talked about, right? This low-grade inflammation that's persistent, it's not getting better, it's not going away.

Things like interferon gamma and TNF alpha, and these things are pro-inflammatory, and they're immediately toxic to stem cells. And so, when I think about treating a patient and I want to do a stem cell injection, if I want to get the maximal benefit from those stem cells, I don't want to put them in an environment to be interfered with from an inflammatory and low pH environment that's going to, you know, they have enough to deal with, I don't want to make an, I don't want to introduce them to an environment that makes their job difficult and can actually be toxic to them. And so, by prepping the joint, by utilizing PRP in a series of injections, I can actually reduce the inflammation in that joint because we know that PRP, which stands for platelet skin, and reduce some of that inflammation and improve the pH, reduce some of those inflammatory cytokines, and that helps to prepare the joint to receive a stem cell injection so that the stem cells can go to the area to regenerate tissue, right? And so, I utilize this regularly with my patients where we'll do a series of one, two, sometimes three PRP injections until we feel like we were able to calm the joint down. We can reduce some of the swelling, the swelling that may have been recurrent previously is now calmed down, and now we can introduce a stem cell to allow them to go to the sites of injury, to the sites of damage, and just focus all of their efforts into that space rather than having to overcome a toxic environment. So, that's how I use PRP and or PRF, you know, platelet-rich plasma versus platelet-rich fibrin, those are things that I use in advance of a stem cell therapy to really maximize the potential benefit of a stem cell injection.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so is it basically getting rid of the distracting inflammatory signaling that might occur and then just going to the inflammatory signaling that needs to be addressed?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, exactly. So the stem cells can go to areas of damaged tissue, and it's not just the inflammation that signals, but it's the damage, the sites of the areas that are exposed that should not be exposed, and the stem cells can see that, and they can go to those areas to stimulate the regenerative process. But if it's an inflammatory state that's just widespread and throughout, again, that is just directly toxic to the stem cells. So if you get X number of stem cells injected, you can reduce that by 50% almost immediately because of the toxic environment that you've been introduced into.

So your army is not as big, and the potential is not as great.

Melanie Avalon
Gotcha, that completely makes sense because I guess, ironically, you wouldn't want to get rid of all the inflammation because then the stem cells, you know, wouldn't necessarily go anywhere potentially. So, okay, very, very cool.

Actually, so another question, just looking more at your bio because you, so you currently do training with Olympic lifting and racing triathlons?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, I try. As I mentioned, I try to maintain my identity as an athlete. My focus has shifted from being in college where it was all about performance on the field and trying to be fast, jump high and explosive and that sort of deal. Now it's been to the whole health and wellness side where I'm focusing on what are the metrics that are going to help me be healthy and live long. There's a period of time where I was freshly out of college and the only workouts I knew how to do were the ones that I had been doing in college for the last four years. I didn't really have a focus. It's like, what is my purpose of trying to rep 225 pounds? Yes, there's a strength component and a muscular endurance component, but it wasn't until later that I started to realize that there are markers of longevity and there are objective measures and things that I should really focus in on. It was great for me because now I had a framework to work with. I knew what the new metrics were that I can hone in after to support my health and longevity. That's my focus of training now.

That does overlap a bit. I do some power training still because I want to maintain explosiveness and type 2 fiber, density. Those are the things that I continue to implement in my workout regimen, but also recognizing I was never a long distance athlete at all ever in my life. Football plays are measured in seconds. Thinking about doing a 5K or 10K or triathlon was never really on my radar, but I recognize that there's health benefits from that, from doing sustained long endurance training. I got into doing some triathlons and I've done a couple marathons in my life. I've learned the importance and recognized the importance of implementing that into my exercise regimen, so I try to cover both ends of those spectrums. Again, just thinking about longevity and just overall health.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Well, I'm the same in that I lean more towards power, not endurance.

And actually, my genetic test also said that I was on the power side of things. So doing all with all this training, because you mentioned earlier that you personally practice intermittent fasting, what type of fasting window do you do?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, so I do once a week I do a 24 hour fast and then quarterly I do a 72 hour fast water only.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, with that once a week, 24 hour fast, is there any specific rules or how do you time it around your athletic endeavors?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, so it's on my day off. I usually do my last meal Friday night and then won't eat again until Saturday night and I don't typically work out on Saturday. So that's what I do.

Sometimes I will change, because breakfast is my favorite meal, I will change to eat breakfast on Saturday morning and then not eat again until Sunday morning. And again, I'm usually not training or doing much around that. If I do train, I try to focus only on a long endurance, usually like a zone two type of exercise because I'm getting into that ketosis and I'm trying to stimulate fatty acid oxidation. And so I pair those up to try to enhance my ability to mobilize fatty acids and to utilize the fatty acid oxidation aspect. So I don't do a whole lot of high intensity strength training or power training in those realms when I'm doing my fast.

Melanie Avalon
Okay and then major question for you because we get this all the time. So when you are doing the type of training to build muscle, how soon do you need to eat protein after working out?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, so that depends on how long you've been working out and how long you've been taken in your high protein meals because your body can adapt. When you're newly into exercise regimens and newly into paying attention to your nutritional side of that, the impact is greater by consuming your protein closer to the workout.

But your ability to consume and absorb and utilize the amino acids that you consume in your diet are improved with a more regular exercise regimen. So the more you work out, the more consistent you are in your exercise regimen, your ability to utilize and absorb protein is improved for longer periods of time. So it's not as important to take in within the first hour or first two hours. I still try to do that because I work out in the morning and then I'm going to get a big breakfast before I head out to work. So that's my rhythm and how I do it. But it's not as important, the more trained you are, but if you're early on to the exercise world and you're starting a new exercise regimen, then taking in a good slug of protein shortly after within that first hour is going to be ideal.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, yes, we get that question all the time. Awesome, well, is there anything else?

And for listeners, this is so exciting. You can actually get 50% off a consult with Dr. Meadows at his practice. If you go to ifpodcast.com slash clinic5c, so that's ifpodcast.com slash clinic, the number five, the letter C. So thank you so much. What is the purpose of these consults? So is this for what type of people should come to you for this? Like what type of issues?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yes, great. Thank you for that.

A consult with me in the regenerative medicine space can be anything from an orthopedic-related condition, it could be autoimmune conditions, it could be any questions you might have surrounding the potential utilization of regenerative technology, stem cells, PRP, et cetera, to support the healing process of whatever you may be dealing with. And so a predominant, a good portion of my practice is in the orthopedic space, but we're recognizing how impactful these tools are being across the board of different diagnoses, neuronal health, cognitive impairment, that's what we started off with. Again, autoimmune processes, which I think is going to be the next big area in which stem cells are going to be beneficial for because of their immune modulating capacity.

So it could be across any of those. And again, I can kind of help patients guide them in the direction of what potential therapies there are out there. And again, we talked about some of the protocols, both pre and post-operative. So anything amongst those different avenues, I'm certainly here to available help.

Melanie Avalon
Amazing. And are those consults done virtually? Can they be done virtually?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
They can be virtually or if you're in the area in person, we offer both.

Melanie Avalon
And if people want to work with you, is any of that virtual or are they going to need to come in person?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
If there's any treatment that's recommended that we offer, of course, that's going to be in person, I certainly can offer the insight that I have into lifestyle management or adjustment treatment ideas that I would have. But if there's any sort of, of course, we talked about diagnostic ultrasound and ultrasound guided procedures, if any of that is recommended, I can certainly point you in the right direction if you're not able to travel up here.

But otherwise, if you're interested in me personally doing any of that, then of course, we'd have to do a little bit of traveling, but hopefully not too bad.

Melanie Avalon
And anything else? Thank you so much, Dr. Meadows. This has been so amazing, just so enlightening.

Is there anything else you wanted to touch on from your practice or especially, you know, with you what you were saying earlier in the show about how important education is to you? Just anything that you would like to educate our audience on?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Well, I'm just excited to be here. I am thankful that I have the platform to continue to talk about stem cell therapies and regenerative medicine. I think it's a growing area of interest and a growing area of science, and I'm excited that I have the opportunity to share that with your audience here, and I'm grateful to have the opportunity to chat with you.

We've covered a lot of ground. There's still so much that we can chat about, but I think we talked about a lot of stuff here, and I'm grateful to have had the opportunity.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, no, this was so, so wonderful. I'm just so, so grateful for everything that you're doing because like I was saying throughout the show, it's, it's really hard to, it can be hard for people to find, you know, sources where they can actually, you know, make change and what they're experiencing, especially when it comes to pain in their body and your approach is just incredible. It's fantastic. Thank you for everything that you're doing.

And yes, so again, so listeners, these show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast.com slash episode 438. And those show notes will have a transcript. They'll have links to everything that we talked about. And again, you can get 50% off a consultation with Dr. Meadows and check out his clinic's website when you go to ifpodcast.com slash clinic5c. All right. Well, thank you, Dr. Meadows. Are there any other links you want to put out there?

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Yeah, so you can go to our website clinic5c.com. I am also on Instagram, meadows.md, so you can follow me there as well.

And so you can also connect with me. I'm on there pretty regularly. I chat with patients and answer questions there as well. So there's a couple areas that you can get some more information.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. Well, we will put that on the show notes. Thank you so much for your time and we will talk again in the future.

Dr. Christopher Meadows
Look forward to it. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Sep 01

Episode 437 – How To Know If Fat Adapted, Fasting Benefits Disappearing, Long Term Vs Short Term Benefits Of IF, Fasting “Dumping” Problems, Changing Windows For Plateaus, Long Term IF, And More!

⁠Physiology, Gastrocolic Reflex

Welcome to Episode 437 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 437 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 437 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad
Hey, Mel, I'm doing really, really good. I'm good.

I am looking out right now at the most incredible view of New York City. I'm sitting here, just really grateful that I'm in my new home. And yeah, just adapting to having been here long as you know, so just getting used to life here and feeling just very grateful at the moment. Like that's just truthfully how I feel, like a lot of gratitude and just excited for what's to come the next chapter, you know.

Melanie Avalon
I'm so excited for you. I can't wait till we're in the same room.

Barry Conrad
It's going to happen. Are you going to freak out when you finally, when we finally meet in person?

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I think you need to come see a show at the Fox.

Barry Conrad
Okay, listeners, this is a thing pretty much on a weekly basis. Melanie's like, hey, I'm going to this, this is, do you want to come? Hey, I've got tickets to this. Do you want to come?

She's always inviting me to these shows. They're great though, right?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, wait, I get great. Can I invite you to something that I just got tickets for? That's so random. What is it?

It's in, I think it's in August. It's OK. What's it called? It's called. OK, wait, let me let me find it. I was like, do I buy these tickets? Yes. Hold on. Let me. OK, it is called. It's called. And I quote. We call it Cabaret. Dracula dance show in the moonlight. It's like a cabaret retelling of Dracula.

Barry Conrad
Wow. Okay. That kind of sounds...

Melanie Avalon
I think it's like a touring thing. Oh, shout out to one of the coolest apps. And oh, Barry, now that you're in the US, you can get it. You should download the Fever app if you don't have it.

Barry Conrad
Is that what kind of app is it? It sounds like a dating app sort of.

Melanie Avalon
It could be a dating app. It's not a dating app.

It basically shows really cool, unique shows and experiences and things that you can do that are in your city. And it's always stuff that's there for like a limited time. And a lot of it, you can only get the tickets on the fever app. So like the candlelight concert series, oh, that I'm excited about I went to like a Taylor Swift candlelight concert thing. But they do all these different covers of music. So like next week, I'm going to a candlelight concert series for Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones music.

Barry Conrad
That sounds awesome, actually. That sounds epic.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I'm excited. There's a Hans Zimmer one I want to go to.

They'll do like pop music though, like Beyonce, stuff like that. That's like a thing, but they're on the fever app. But the fever app will also have things like, for a while they had like the Bridgerton experience where it's like a party, but it's like Bridgerton. Like that's where I found this cabaret. We call it cabaret, Dracula dance show in the moonlight.

Barry Conrad
It's actually sounds like a very Melanie coded show this but I don't know why something about that's the title and probably like potentially what the theme will be like how people go dress that you can have a special after this.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I gotta figure I guess I have to wear red. I feel like I have to wear red.

I want to show you Can I send a link on here? I'm gonna show you the artwork for it listeners I sent Barry a picture and it looks really intense. Would you say?

Barry Conrad
look full really intense is kind of putting it mildly. It looks, they're really committed to what they're, you know, putting down. I can't wait to hear how it is, what your view is.

Melanie Avalon
And this is one of the things where, because I buy tickets for shows, like so many shows way ahead of time. So I bought two tickets and I was like, well, we'll see if I can find somebody to go with me to this.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, you haven't, you have noticed you can, you've like last minute gone to shows so many times, I'm sure that you can find someone.

Melanie Avalon
Find the people, yeah. So, okay, what brought this up? What were we talking about?

Barry Conrad
We're talking about, yeah, how did this come up?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, the fox that you need to come see a show here at the Fox theater the next show I'm seeing at the Fox's Book of Mormon want to come?

Barry Conrad
I've actually never seen that. You know what, Melanie, I'm putting it out there.

You need to be like an investor for the Fox because you always, you're always promoting how awesome they are. They need to give you like a lifetime pass to all their shows or something.

Melanie Avalon
I actually agree. I don't normally like to ask for things, but I feel like the amount of promotion I do for them. Yeah, it's just a stunning theater. It's stunning.

Barry Conrad
Really?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it used to be a mosque originally, then they turned into a theater. Oh, and it also originally was a movie house, like a movie palace.

It opened in the 1920s, but it's like, oh, it's an Egyptian, like, architecture and stuff. So the ceiling is like stars.

Barry Conrad
It sounds very Melanie, like you would love it, which you do. When I come to Atlanta, not if maybe if it times with the time of week, usually Friday, Saturday, Sunday shows or any, any day.

Melanie Avalon
any day.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. If it's times with the show, that's good. We may have to, as long as we can squeeze in like a good meal and that's obviously number one, like food.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, wait, wait, really? Wait, what that's your priority? Number one.

Barry Conrad
So if you go like the wrong part is okay, or it could be like, on the same night, we could do like a dinner drinks and go.

Melanie Avalon
Let me pitch you. Are you ready? Are you ready? So the Fox Theatre, the marquee club, I told you about the marquee club, right? So basically, okay, because you know, normally, like when you go to a show, it's like a little bit stressful, because you have to like hurry. And it's usually not like cheap, cheap concessions. And there's lines at the bathroom. And it's just kind of like stressful situation a little bit.

So at the Fox, they converted a nightclub next door into this attached marquee club. It's three stories. It has three bars, really fancy food. So like, and it's stunning as well. And so you can eat, you can drink, it's like a whole thing. So you could get you could get a lot of food, like good food.

Barry Conrad
Well, that sounds really good. I'm about that. Okay, sold. Sold. Okay. The pitch worked. Success.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, thank you. That was my goal. So, yeah, so how are things with you?

Barry Conrad
Your reaction is really funny. He's like, what? That's your priority? Like you sounded really like disappointed. He's like, that's your priority. Not the job.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, actually, there are a lot of really good restaurants here, and I know some really good ones that we should go to for sure.

Barry Conrad
Another thing that I'd love to share is I've, and this is maybe a bit late, but I have started my first newsletter.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, that's cool. I'm gonna sign up, how do I sign up?

Barry Conrad
You go to Barricorn at official.com and basically it's called the BC triple shot. So the concept is I serve up three hits to kickstart your week. So that's what's new, what I'm loving and what's on my mind.

And that can include things like health and fitness tips, insights, lifestyle fuel, you know, a bit of motivation and also a bit of updated when I'm doing career-wise, so it's just really short every week straight to your inbox from me. So.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Okay. So how do I sign up? I don't see.

Barry Conrad
So if you go to barryconradoffices.com and then click on the BC triple shot, there should be a...

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I see.

Barry Conrad
And then it'll tell you, have put it in like the URL, barricornadofficial.com slash speciejawshot.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so let me just drop her email here. Yeah. I'm signing up right now.

Barry Conrad
Oh, in real time, how good is that?

Melanie Avalon
in real time. Sign me up for this man. Here I go.

Barry Conrad
I just kind of thought it's a way to get closer with my audience as well and share some things that I might not get to share on social media all the time, so, you know.

Melanie Avalon
It's good. Serve me that BC triple shot. Yes. Click. Fresh delivery coming right up this Sunday. Yes.

Barry Conrad
Pressure's on now because Melanie's gonna be reading it

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, Sunday. I'm ready. Okay. Awesome. Cool. Congrats.

Barry Conrad
Thank you. And what about you? How's your day? How's your week? What's new with you? How are you?

Melanie Avalon
I'm good. I'm really excited because I have lit I have been cultivating the most magical fairy garden in my apartment and I can't cannot even express the magic of this magical fairy garden.

Yes, I'm going to send you a picture on Instagram. And I have a funny story about it. So okay, the picture I send you it's missing because I just deconstructed one of the things I'm actually going to plant strawberries in the empty, the empty unit in the front. Okay, I sent it to you. Oh, wow. Mel doesn't it look like look like a magical fairy garden? Can you see the flowers are climbing up my window? That's that looks awesome. Actually, and so funny story or true story. So the plant, if you're looking at, like on the right, there's like this girl statue thing. So the unit right behind that the shorter unit that's lit up, it has green plants in it. So my story about this is those are sunflowers, that's a sunflower. And I thought it said five to eight inches was how tall the plant I thought this was like little sunflowers, then I realized no, it's it said five to eight feet. What? So that that sunflower. So then I was like, Wait a minute. I don't know if that unit can handle a eight foot flower.

Barry Conrad
It's actually kind of funny because it's very also like a tall flower. It reminds me of like it's very fairy tale-esque like someone climbing up a tree. You know what I mean? It's very.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, an eight foot flower. That is so tall. So now it's already it's it's past it's past the light. So now I'm I'm just directing it. So I basically when I found that out, I'm I'm sorry, but I had I killed all the other ones because I was like, we can only this unit can only support maybe one flower.

And now I'm directing it to kind of like directing. Like trying to get it to grow like, towards the, the window. But I have another theory. So if you also look in the picture, you can see that. So I have this one tall unit for listeners that has petunias in it. And they're very tall. And they're growing up my windows. And they're pretty, then the other the unit next to it. It was called the hummingbird collection. I don't know. It looked really pretty. I had like 30 different flowers all pink. But what's in what's what's been happening? It's just this one plant that's growing. But it's growing. Do you see how it's only on it's like on the side. So I wish you could see it in real life. It's aggressively growing that direction. And Danielle, I think you'll figure it out. We think it's growing away from the petunias. Like we think it doesn't like the petunias.

Barry Conrad
What's the solution? What are you going to do? Are you going to try to direct it or?

Melanie Avalon
I don't know but it's just interesting to look at it because I wish you could see it like I said in person because they're like aggressively growing like it's like they're running away. So I don't think my flowers get along.

Barry Conrad
That's really funny. What happens if you want them to clash? What do you want to happen?

Melanie Avalon
I don't know. I just don't know why they're not friends, but they're not friends.

Barry Conrad
Well, looking at this photo, I can see it could be bad, could be tricky.

Melanie Avalon
I'm going to take Austin to a close-up photo later so you can see how aggressively they're running away because it's like very obvious. I thought they were trying to run towards some light but there's no light they're running towards so IDK.

Barry Conrad
Is that statue meant to symbolize you like you're kind of not, you know, harvesting.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, so these statue, okay, I am so happy about these statues. So my mom, we were going through like heirloom stuff when we got to pick out things. And my mom had these two they're called Yadro, the the name of the brand. They're like vintage, beautiful statues. And so I love these I they've been they've been like in our house since I was little, like as long as I can remember. And she let me have them. And so they're my they're beautiful. They're my little Yeah, my little statues.

Barry Conrad
so that you've held on to them for a long time.

Melanie Avalon
Well, my mom has, but I kind of just inherited them. Like I picked them out. Well, that's cool.

Barry Conrad
Definitely suits the motif, like the vibe of the fairytale garden.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so you should come to Atlanta and check out my fairy tale garden.

Barry Conrad
It's like a far good good walking. It's like welcome to my garden walk. There's lots of red light. There's a garden there Amazing it looks awesome though. So good

Melanie Avalon
Do you have indoor plants in your apartment?

Barry Conrad
Not yet. Actually no, I've got not like yours or not going to say yes because it's way more basic than that's not like a eight foot situation, but I've got a couple here. Want to get some more?

Melanie Avalon
I cannot recommend enough the amazingness of bringing plants like to listeners into your they clean the air, they bring a good a good vibe, a good spirit. I'm all about it.

And there's a lot that are really easy to take care of like money trees, Barry, now that you're in the US. Oh, is there a Whole Foods by you?

Barry Conrad
Oh, I haven't gotten that fire, but tomorrow I'm going to be exploring. So tomorrow I'll be looking at where the closest Whole Foods is.

I'm, ah, I'm finally in the States. So I can go to Whole Foods and see these scallops.

Melanie Avalon
See the scallops, the wine, and I love the Whole Foods plant department kills me. Like I just go in and I just like sit there and I just buy plants. I'm so bad with buying plants.

Barry Conrad
Can you actually write me like a list of your favorite things at Whole Foods that I need to try? Because that just will cut out like me trying to figure it out.

You can just say this, you have to try this. Food, da da da.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Oh my goodness.

Barry Conrad
I love that. Melanie's List, Mel's faves, I don't know, whatever you want to call it.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Shall we jump into some fasting stuff?

Barry Conrad
Let's jump into some fasting stuff. Do you have a study?

Melanie Avalon
I do, so I found a study, are you ready for this title? That is, you can tell it's like clickbaity. I don't know, I think it's clickbaity. Let's hear it.

The metabolic effects of intermittent fasting in patient with type two diabetes exist in the short term but disappear after its discontinuation. A systemic review and meta analysis of randomized controlled trials. The reason this is clickbaity is because it's not even true. It is true, but they found that they found with intermittent fasting and type two diabetic patients that some of the benefits happen in the short term and some happen in the long term. So, and then vice versa. So they make it sound like you only get short term benefits from fasting and then they're completely gone when you stop, which is not exactly what they found. And also if you, I don't think that should be that shocking that if you stop fasting, the benefits are not gonna last forever. Like it's not like you can, I don't know, like who's promising that, you know.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, who's selling that?

Melanie Avalon
So, what this study found, the way it starts is they say, we hypothesize that IF is non-inferior to other dietary control methods. So in other words, that it's, I don't know, it's weird, it's weird, weird wording. I'll just read the whole sentence. Okay, so we hypothesize that IF is non-inferior to other dietary control methods, including continuous energy restriction, standard diet, Mediterranean diet, and ad libitum diet in terms of both short-term and long-term metabolic impacts in patients with type 2 diabetes.

So basically, it's a meta-analysis. They looked at quite a few different studies, and in the end, it was a total of 966 participants. This is important to note. They said substantial hetero-genaity, hetero-genaity, the studies were heterogeneous. And why this is important is the fact that they're pointing it out means it was probably pretty heterogeneous. So basically, it's not like all the studies were saying the same thing. The studies were finding different things. But then when you average it together, you get the findings that you find. So not all the studies found the same thing. But what did they find? So this is patients with type 2 diabetes, and they classified short-term intermittent fasting as less than three months, and long-term as more than three months. And they found that short-term fasting only decreased fasting blood sugar. So in the short-term, less than three months. Oh, and all the things they looked at. Let me tell you all the things they looked at. So they were looking at HbA1c, fasting blood sugar, weight, BMI, fat mass, fat-free mass, LDL, body fat, insulin, blood pressure, total cholesterol, and triglycerides. So that's a lot of things that they were looking at. So the findings were that short-term, less than three months, only decreased fasting blood sugar.

In the long-term, so more than three months, it could improve HbA1c and weight. And then in the short term, it also had metabolic benefits of HbA1c, but it was transient, and then fasting blood sugar as well. And they said IF cannot maintain the metabolic effects after its discontinuation, which is greater than three months, a little bit longer, because that was the highlights they pointed out. But the full thing they said was, in patients with type 2 diabetes, and some of this contradicts, that's why I'm a little bit confused. In patients with type 2 diabetes, IF significantly decreases HbA1c, fasting, blood glucose, weight, BMI, fat mass, fat-free mass, and LDL in the short term. It significantly increases HDL, which is a good thing. However, it has no significant effect on fasting insulin, body fat, blood pressure, total cholesterol, and triglycerides. That's for the short term. Intermittent fasting does not show long-term metabolic benefits, which is so weird, because earlier they said that it affected weight and HbA1c. After a discontinuing IF for a period of more than three months, there are no significant changes in HbA1c and weight, even though they conclude that it does affect weight. Literally, it is so confusing.

Melanie Avalon
And I read the whole thing, and I went through, I think what I want to draw... Okay, here's the conclusion. Let's see what they say in the conclusion.

The results of our meta-analysis partially confirmed our hypothesis, demonstrating that IF significantly improved HbA1c, fasting, blood, sugar, and body weight in the short term compared to other dietary interventions. However, these benefits disappeared after its discontinuation. Meanwhile, our findings revealed another important conclusion. Long-term IF led to statistically significant benefits in HbA1c and body weight that were not achieved with short-term intermittent fasting. This suggests that sustained adherence to IF may yield benefits beyond those observed in shorter durations, therefore continuing long-term IF may provide more lasting metabolic benefits.

Okay, so basically, I'm guessing why it's confusing is what it looks like. Is that in the studies where it improved HbA1c in the short term compared to other diets, when they stopped, it did not continue. But in the studies where they were longer term, it was found that it helped HbA1c and body weight, even though it didn't have that effect in the short term. Literally there's so much contradiction in the study, I don't even know what to do with it. And what they also acknowledge is they said that it could be a reason that they didn't have long-term benefits was because of compliance. So basically, people might be able to do IF in the short term and see the benefits. But then as they keep going, they don't comply and so the benefits go away.

But what's interesting about that is then it's not even really testing if you get the benefits in the long-term because we don't know that the people are adhering to it. So it's difficult to make a statement like there aren't long-term benefits when we're not even certain if people were adhering to even make that statement in the first place. I basically walked away so confused from this. I was like, okay, so some things seem to benefit in the short term, some benefit in the long term, some in the short term, but not long term, but long term, but not short term, literally, it's literally so confusing.

And then the conclusion of it, how they conclude it is that the benefits exist in the short term, but disappear after you stop, which isn't what they even found throughout the whole thing. They found it sometimes, but not always. So now I'm confusing myself even more, but this concept, what are your thoughts on this? Like benefits disappearing and...

Barry Conrad
first of all, it's awesome study and also really contradicts itself. I mean, from what I get gathered in the short term, in under the three months, the early winds of the fasting blood sugar situation, and then some improvements in the HPA1C, but it's not surprising to me with the weight, you know, because some people might take a really long time to get fat adapted and actually get used to fasting. Like it doesn't, some people, it happens quickly. And some people, it takes quite a while. So it's not surprising to me that the weight loss, for example, was seen when people adhered longer, like to, like that to me makes sense. And it also makes sense to me that benefits would, quote unquote, like, you know, drop off or stop after stopping intermittent fasting. That also is not a surprise to me. So I'm not too sure why they're saying that as well. But then also contradicting, I don't know. Yeah, it was quite confusing some of the information.

But the basis of what I'm hearing is like, yeah, the longer you stick with it, you're going to see more benefits. You know, essentially, I'm curious, though, like how, how old were the participants? And did it specify if they were male or female?

Melanie Avalon
And now I'm just thinking about it more. I don't know why you would even comment on HPA1C in the short term that's less than three months because it typically takes three months to see a change in HPA1C. So that's actually kind of confusing that they would even look at that for the less than three months.

And I found another clarification about the weight. So it said, our analysis showed that I have regimens, time restricted eating and fasting mimicking diet and do significant weight loss. One study reported that weight loss achieved by IF may be attributable to individuals failing to fully compensate for the caloric deficit associated with IF during non-fasting periods. Our analysis showed that long duration IF more than three months resulted in significant weight loss where short duration less than three months did not. Although greater weight loss with IF was observed and the majority of the included studies during follow-up, the long-term benefits of IF on body weight remained insignificant. So you were asking about who was included, the population. Let me...

Barry Conrad
Even like the ages and even like the male or female, because I'd imagine like age would definitely play a role in what there was finding and seeing. So I wonder how they regulate like, like what, yeah, what ages they were.

Melanie Avalon
Here it is. It was adults with type 2 diabetes who were over 18 and there were no restrictions on sex, ethnicity, or BMI. Let's see if they say what it ended up actually being. It looks like they don't answer it.

You have to look at every single individual study and look at the percentage of females and it looks to be about 50-50.

Barry Conrad
And did they, I can't remember if you mentioned if they had like a specific protocol of fasting, like how many hours or was it 16a? Was it an ADF?

Melanie Avalon
It covered different types. So they had time restricted eating. So that's like doing like a 16-8 or restricting your eating window every day, fasting mimicking diets, and then periodic fasting. Okay, here's how they defined it. So they defined time restricted eating as a complete fasting, no calorie intake for at least 12 hours per day with free feeding for the rest of the day daily. Fasting mimicking diet was the calorie restricted five-day nutritional program with or without periodosity. Periodosity, I haven't actually used that word before. And then periodic fasting was, this sounds like more like ADF and stuff, cyclical feeding pattern that entails fasting, 25% or less of required calories, doing that one to two days per week with free feeding for the remaining days. Yes. So that's the different types that they covered.

So basically all the different types that people do. Oh, oh, oh, wait, intervent and other regimens. So there might have been other things as well.

Barry Conrad
But that's also like, so that can be quite abstract because, you know.

Melanie Avalon
and they excluded pregnant or breastfeeding women and they excluded patients with type one diabetes, eating disorders, liver disease, other pathologies. It was only randomized controlled trials though and yeah, that's quite a few different studies.

Barry Conrad
The gist of what I got from that, it came off making a lot of claims, but the variables aren't very specific or like when you said other protocols or other methods or whatnot. And yeah, it doesn't seem very as controlled or you know what I mean?

And then to make sort of like bigger claims like that and contradicting itself, it was kind of confusing to understand, but what I can take away from it as a positive is I guess the longer you stick to intermittent fasting, you're going to see more benefits anyway. I mean, obviously it's not a, it's a no brainer to me that if you did a short term and then stopped that the benefits would subside along with that. You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
I mean, the fact that they literally said that it's very heterogeneous in the studies, it kind of makes sense that there seems to be a lot of contradictions because it sounds like the studies themselves were not easily painting any one picture. So this basically was just like a, it was a lot of statistics and data that they were doing by analyzing things.

They did find, I'm just reading their conclusion again. Also interesting, so like they say, for example, no statistically significant reductions brought about by IF were observed in body fat, fasting insulin, total cholesterol, or triglycerides compared to the control, but it did produce significant changes in body composition parameters, which included fat mass, fat-free mass, and BMI. Like even that, that seems like a contradiction right there because they were talking about body fat and now they're talking about fat mass, which we think that you think that would be the same thing, yeah, and blood liquid concentrations of HDL and LDL. So I feel like I probably just confuse listeners even more, but the point that I wanted to extrapolate from this is it looks like short-term versus long-term, people experience different effects on different proposed benefits of intermittent fasting. And yet I wouldn't use that. It's just weird to me that it's posited as like, oh, do fasting and then the benefits, if you stop the benefits disappear, which like I said at the beginning, fasting is not, it's not like you, it's not like it changes you and then if you go back to your old ways that you're magically protected. It's a lifestyle. It's not a, yeah, it's an ongoing lifestyle.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. And that's essentially what I got from it as well. And also I think as well, three months is a significant amount of time. It's not that short, really.

Like if someone diligently sticks to kind of anything for three months, you're going to see change. So the fact that they, one hand said, you know, no benefit in the way, and then saying, oh, the other hand, oh, but body composition changes. Like that's hand in hand. It's so, yeah, it's very funny. But yeah, stick with fasting.

Melanie Avalon
You know what's funny? So the very, very last sentence of the whole paper or two last two sentences is our findings revealed another important conclusion. Long-term IF led to statistically significant benefits in HBOMC and body weight that were not achieved with short-term IF. This suggests that sustained adherence to IF may yield benefits beyond those observed in shorter durations. Therefore, continual long-term IF may provide more lasting metabolic benefits.

Why would you make that your last sentence and then make the title that the benefits disappear? Literally, you know what I feel like? I mean, this is me just, okay, this is not, we don't know this is a fact, so I probably shouldn't say it. But I feel like I feel like people had different ideas of what they wanted to support because, you know, and somebody won by getting the title. They're like, well, we're going to conclude something different. What they conclude is different than what the title presents, if that makes sense.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it sounds like a lot of cooks in the kitchen and that's what sounds disjointed, you know.

Melanie Avalon
And that also goes to show why, because if you just saw that, if you just saw the title, you'd be like, oh, it's a very negative feeling, but then, you know, you read the conclusion and the vibe is more about the continuation of the benefits. If you're, if you're, you know, continuing to do it, even if it seems like sometimes they aren't there.

Barry Conrad
I'm picturing like a, you know, like a group assignment and people sitting around a table and just, you do this part, you do this part, you do this part, it's not succinct or cohesive, it's like very disjointed, like lots of different individual thoughts and theories.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, and in a way, I mean probably I'm assuming everything is it's true. It's just it doesn't feel cohesive and what they're trying to like Present and then just as I've said it a million times, but I will this is the last time I'm saying it I I don't think with any diet.

I would not discredit the diet if the effects Go away when you stop the diet Unless the diet literally promises do this once and you're like set For good, which I can't think of any diet that promises that Then I don't really see any problem with benefits disappearing when you stop it

Barry Conrad
Like, how do people expect to, yeah, stopping anything, not even a diet, anything, like how you expect to keep reaping the benefits of your stop?

Melanie Avalon
So yeah, sorry, I feel like that was really confusing and now I confused myself.

Barry Conrad
No, it was actually really good to try to analyze and like figure out what they're trying to say. That was really fun to do.

Melanie Avalon
And I like what you were saying, too, about how it makes sense with the weight, how some people might see it in the long term. You know what? That's interesting.

I bet some people see more weight loss with intermittent fasting in the short term, and then they might plateau. And other people, it might take longer, but then they see more in the long term. You know? Like, we're just so individual as far as the timeline of weight loss.

Barry Conrad
Well, it's an awesome study, nonetheless, thanks for being in it.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you. Shall we, now that I've confused myself, shall we answer some listener questions?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so first question comes from Nydia, and this is from Facebook. So friends join my group, Intermittent Fasting Biohackers, because you can ask questions in there for the show.

And Nydia says, how do we know we are fat adapted, and why every time I open my window, which is protein, I get the runs. I fast 19 or 20 hours, depending on what time I get out of work, I have been fasting for about four-ish years.

Barry Conrad
Well, Nydia, thank you so much for your question. And honestly, a lot of people out there probably echoing same when they hear that question. Because you've been fasting consistently four years, hitting 19 to 20-hour windows. That's pretty impressive. And you're clearly committed to the lifestyle.

So let's talk about both parts of this question. So how do you get fat adapted? Well, I think the fact that you've been fasting this long consistently is a pretty strong chance you already are there. So fat adaption, it's not this moment to look a light switch that just goes, you're fat adapted now. It's more like a gradual sort of a shift that happens as your body learns to efficiently use to store fat for fuel. So that kind of adaption, it doesn't just happen overnight, Nydia, but after four years, you've given your body more than enough time to build that metabolic flexibility, I think. And the signs that your fat adapted can show up as having like things like having stable energy throughout the day, even during the fast fewer cravings for sugar or refined carbs or the ability to work out fasted without maybe hitting a wall, even mental clarity. If you're experiencing any or some of those, like that's likely a sign that your body's showing that it knows what it's doing. And for the second part, I would say, getting the runs every time you open your eating window, especially when you're starting with protein, that could be frustrating. And it's more common, I think, than people probably realize that there could be a few reasons why. I think one of the big things is when you fast for longer periods of time, your digestive system, it does slow down. So especially with things like enzyme production, so your body isn't actively digesting anything for most of the day. So when you suddenly introduce food, especially dense protein, your body kind of has to like rev back up, like start the engine again. So if it doesn't have enough enzymes ready to go, or if your first meal is maybe too heavy or too quickly, your body can maybe respond with urgency, literally, you know, that gets to the bathroom now feeling, could be your gut saying, whoa, like that. That escalated fast, like, you know, maybe let's slow down. Another layer could be possibly related to maybe bile production. So if you're, for example, eating higher fat protein meals, like steak or chicken thighs or something like that, something with added oils, your gallbladder has to release bile to help break that down. But sometimes that sudden sort of release can irritate the gut a bit or just overwhelm your system a little, just after a long fast. And for some people, it's not even about the fat or the enzyme load, it's just that their guts become more sensitive over time because you're giving it such a break throughout the day. So fasting can shift your microbiome and that can make certain foods, even ones that used to be totally fine, feel like more of a shock initially when you reintroduce it on an empty stomach. So what to do, like, what do you do with that?

Barry Conrad
You could experiment with breaking your fast a little more gently. So instead of diving right into a big protein meal, for example, you could maybe just have a small bite or something softer or lighter than giving your body 10 or 15 minutes before you eat the rest, or even something like a tiny buffer can make a big difference.

Overall, it doesn't mean nearly anything's wrong. It doesn't even mean that your fasting isn't working. It's just, it could mean that your body is asking for a slightly softer re-entry or you've clearly built a strong foundation. So, and now it's just about refining those details, I reckon, and just keeping a digestion, making sure a digestion can keep up with your goals. But it sounds like you're doing awesome. And I know that people listening, it's gonna resonate with them and there's more people out there that have this in common, I reckon, but Melanie, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
You nailed that. You did such a good job. I agree completely with everything you said.

So I think with the fat adapted, because basically it's a as far as a timeline of what has to happen for you to be quote fat adapted, basically, your insulin has to come in to control get lowered, so that your fat stores can actually be tapped into during the fast and that you can burn the fat for energy. And you have your body needs to be able to be able to produce ketones and run off of them. And so that's all changes that have to happen with your hormonal signaling with your insulin going down and then just literally with your mitochondria kind of quote learning how to burn ketones, how to burn fat, but definitely by four years you should be fat adapted. The sign that I look and very pretty much covered all the different signs you can look for. I think the biggest one for me personally that says that your fat adapted is can you can you fast without the cravings and without your energy dropping? Because when you're fat adapted, when you go into the fasted state, then you can tap into fat stores and burn that and burn ketones rather than your body getting quote hangry and really needing carbs. So if you find that you can fast easily without cravings, you can pretty much bet that you're probably fat adapted and you're not getting like blood sugar swings and your energy crashing and things like that.

And Barry, you covered all of the different things. A big epiphany for me that I had was I used to, I guess I didn't understand that when you first eat, it stimulates the digestive process really throughout your whole body. So even though you're like eating like something up top, it stimulates your large intestine because that's where the dumping is happening from. So when you've been fasting for a while, it's actually called, I'll put a link in the show notes to a study called Physiology Gastrocolic Reflex. So basically this Gastrocolic Reflex is this motility that happens in your large intestine following once you eat something. And there can be a large spike in it in that movement when you eat, especially if you haven't been eating and you're fasting and then you eat, it can make more of that movement in your large intestine which can create that urgency feeling. And then Barry really covered it as well with like the enzymes. The bile acid can definitely be a thing because if the bile is building up, because bile builds up in you while you're fasting and then once you eat, especially if it's protein or fat, so and she mentioned protein being the thing, the body dumps that bile and then that can really stimulate your large intestine and create diarrhea. So it would be really interesting to see if you, because she mentions protein, but when she says protein, because a lot of people say protein, but really if it's like a steak, they'll be like, oh, that's protein, but that also could be like protein and fat.

Melanie Avalon
So it would be interesting, is it just the protein causing it? Is it the protein and fat? Is it just a large meal that's causing it? So I would try like Barry was talking about, you know, breaking your fast more gently trying smaller things and seeing if you still get that response.

You could also try supporting your body with digestive enzymes and HCL. So then maybe you're not going to tax your own digestive enzymes in your body. I would basically really work on supporting your digestion and seeing how that affects this issue. And she said she's been fasting for years. It's a while. Yeah, I wonder how long, like has this been happening from the very beginning and for the entire four years?

Yeah, my suggestion would definitely be try enzymes and HCL and see what that does and easing in. Yeah.

Barry Conrad
So good.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, should we do one more quick one or? Let's do it. So question from Christine, would you like to read it?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, so Christine from Facebook says, how much and how often should you change your eating window when you hit a weight flutter?

Melanie Avalon
All right, Christine, thank you for your question. So we get a lot of questions on the show about plateaus and basically, you know, should you change your eating window? I know we give this answer a lot, but there's a lot of options that you can do when you hit a plateau. So it really just depends on you and your bio-individuality and what works for you.

So like for me, I am so happy and used to and comfortable in my one meal a day eating window that for me, if I were to hit a plateau, I just, I have no interest in changing that aspect of it because in my life and socially and energy wise, I like having a one meal a day. So I would tweak what I'm eating rather than change the eating window. And yet at the same time, a lot of people, it's a game changer for them to change the eating window. So it depends what are you doing right now? Like how much leeway do you have to change it? So if you have a longer eating window and you hit a plateau, that's actually a great opportunity to just tighten up the eating window. That's like a really easy switch that you can do and you'll probably see results. But if you already have a tighter eating window, then it's like, what are you going to, what are you going to do from there? Are you going to fast longer? Which that is something you could try. So you could try like an ADF type approach and throwing in some, some longer fast throughout the week or making some of your eating window days, a few times a week, more calorie restricted. The part about her question that I would reframe is that the should. Basically there's not anything you should do. You have to just see what works for you. So if playing around with the fasting is something that you, that you're open to and you would like to do, like try it, like definitely try it. If that's not appealing to you, there's a lot of changes you can make in the food choices you're making. You know, if you're not eating whole foods, try, not the store, but you know, unprocessed foods, you know, try that. You could try playing around with your macros, doing low carb or low fat. It feels like a cop out answer, but those are my thoughts. What are, what are yours?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I mean, in my experience, Christine, it's less about needing to push harder and I think in more about, as Mel said, so great, there's mixing things up a bit maybe, because our bodies are smart, they do adapt quickly. So if you are curious to try it, even shifting your eating window slightly could be enough to get things moving again, like for myself, I've been doing 24 for a long time now.

But sometimes I switch to 22 too, or even 24 hours sometimes, but not always intentionally. And I don't really ever really feel like I'm going through the motions because life will just get busier or not as busy and I'm always going to hold on 20 hours, but if it gets busy, I'll just naturally sort of change. It doesn't have to be a dramatic overhaul, just something that reminds your body, hey, we're not getting too comfortable here. But I think it's about staying flexible, testing what feels good and letting your body guide you, but exactly what Mel said, there should, there's no should. Just try it if you're curious, but there's no need to if it's working for you. And I'm exactly with Mel in terms of like, I love the one meal a day protocol for me, even if I felt like if I did feel kind of stale or things were stalling, food is so underestimated food choices. And I learned that later on as an IFR. So yeah, those are my thoughts.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, awesome. We're the same page So shall we have our proverbial breaking of the fast, which I guess now that's officially what I say

Barry Conrad
Yeah, that's what you say.

Melanie Avalon
Do we feel good about it, about that phrase?

Barry Conrad
We feel good about it. I'm happy with that.

Melanie Avalon
Perfect.

Barry Conrad
So the restaurant that I chose this week is quite fitting because it's in downtown New York City and it's called Le Cuckoo. And it's basically old world French, old world French fine dining. So think like chandeliers, mel, antique mirrors, tall ceilings, kind of like a Parisian salon situation. Award winning French wine list with burgundy, Bordeaux, champagne, all perfectly matched to rich dishes like quenelle, de broche, and rabbit and mustard sauce.

Basically this menu, before we get confused by Mel, it's the Hors de Beauvoir. The Ordiverse. Si, I can't even say it. Are the appetizers or small starters and then the plats are the main or principal dishes and the gormen, I feel like you know these pronunciations, gormen dishes are the bite sized sweets or treats. So that's our guide for what those titles mean. Should we have a look at the menu?

Melanie Avalon
Yes, you know what I also think? I think it's funny how we feature so many restaurants on this show and we both, I feel like butcher, no pun intended, like we have all the names, we should go to a class.

Barry Conrad
We really should because it's like, you know, we're, okay, we're trying to hit, but we, I feel like it's would be more respectful to them if we got it right.

Melanie Avalon
Somebody commented on this on Facebook. Really? What did they say?

Somewhere, somebody from the audience commented and they were saying how it was Facebook. And I think it was a Spanish woman and she was saying how she was cracking up at us horribly, not pronouncing anything correctly.

Barry Conrad
Oh my god okay we need to definitely

Melanie Avalon
It was like a nice comment. It wasn't upset.

Barry Conrad
You know what? This is what I'm going to do now. Before the next time I bring a restaurant that's French or whatever, I'm going to actually study the pronunciation of these words.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, but this could be like a learning experience for us.

Barry Conrad
I think it'd be really good because I think it's, it's good to do that rather than sort of guess and stumble through it.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, I already I need a picture of because the the restaurant, the website doesn't really show the what it looks like. Oh, yes. Okay. Yes.

We love we love chandeliers. I feel very strongly about lighting.

Barry Conrad
Me too. Lighting's a huge deal. For the purposes of this menu mill, I think we should just call it entree, mains, and desserts.

Melanie Avalon
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, we cannot. We know we can't call Okay, you're in America now. We can't call the appetizer an entree because an entree

Barry Conrad
Oh, no, that's right. I have to change. Oh, no, I have to actually

Melanie Avalon
do. Entree is way too confusing.

So shall we look at the... or divorce? The word I can never say. What's funny, it's so they don't do they not use that word in Australia, because they they use it a lot here.

Barry Conrad
I'm sure that they do at French restaurants for sure, but I've never had to use it, so.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, wow. Okay. Yes. I hear it a lot. I just don't say it. Okay. Oh, look, they have oysters.

Barry Conrad
Oh wow, surprise, surprise.

Melanie Avalon
Surprise, surprise. So what are you going to get?

Barry Conrad
First protocol is definitely the hoo-tray insignia, which is the warm oysters, camembert cream and spinach. And then I'm also gonna get some thon-a-les-pel-et, which is yellowfin tuna scallop, esplod oil and spring onions. It sounds really good.

Melanie Avalon
It does sound good. I'll taste some of the scallop and I will taste the oyster.

Barry Conrad
You know what the funny the funniest outcome of this whole thing is you gonna fall in love with oysters and be like you know what i can't believe i used to hate them.

Melanie Avalon
I've actually, I actually feel very confident that I'm never going to like oysters. I might, and I don't think I will, are my thoughts.

Barry Conrad
Okay, what is what looks good to you in the hodavos?

Melanie Avalon
This looks really good. The tartare, the beef tartare, the hand-chopped prime filet, traditional condiments with caviar. Yes. So okay, and then shall we look at the

Barry Conrad
We should go to the plats next cuz that would be the.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, is it not in order?

Barry Conrad
of the order you go in. Yeah, which is interesting. The sweets and whatnot is the second, there's listed second on the menu, but that's actually the desserts.

Melanie Avalon
No, it's not. Wait, what are we looking at? No, the Gorman... the Gorman... desus?

Barry Conrad
Look at the gomorrhysus. Those are all, um, those are not desserts sweets or treats

Melanie Avalon
Are we looking at a different menu? Are you looking at the dinner menu? Yeah, so what do you see second?

Barry Conrad
So I see the common, common disses.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, that's another like, that's kind of like a

Barry Conrad
Oh, really? That's another, okay, another mains kind of thing.

Melanie Avalon
It's like another appetizer.

Barry Conrad
I can't say man, it's another appetizer, it's another appetizer. So I would get from there, the Morellis Fachis, which is stuffed moral mushrooms. Cause I love mushrooms.

Would you get anything from that?

Melanie Avalon
No, I think I'll pass on that course.

Barry Conrad
and then the plaits.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so this is like the entree, the mains.

Barry Conrad
The entree, entree situation.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I'm so intrigued. There's a few.

Barry Conrad
really good ones.

Melanie Avalon
There's there is a few act this is good because I definitely want a dessert. So oh Man, this is really hard.

Okay, so well the thing I'm very intrigued by is the to to let to to let up on to to let up on The all and then it says underneath it says underneath all of the rabbit. So is it is it? I'm confused What is it? I can't be all of the rabbit. Is it all of the rabbit? This is the conversation that I will be having with the waiter or waitress. I'm like, can you clarify? To let up is it literally all of the rabbit like a flick is it is it like a um Is it like when you get a full hen like but it's a rabbit?

Barry Conrad
Maybe just like have a, I'm just picturing like a rabbit on a plate.

Melanie Avalon
Wait, I'm gonna look it up on the restaurant on Yelp because I'm sure somebody has a picture of it. It doesn't look like it's all of the rabbit. It looks like it's like it's two cylinders.

Barry Conrad
I'm looking at Google images and I'm looking at what that is, so I have two little things with

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's like two cylinders. I wonder, Hmm, what is that? What part of the route? I'm very confused.

But then there's also there's also a dish, though, that is in, it's in like a soup pot situation. And it looks like it has it looks like it has different parts of the rabbit. So I think there's going to be a long conversation with the waiter or waitress about this. Either way, I want it.

Barry Conrad
Because I've only tried, because you tried rubber, right?

Melanie Avalon
Actually no, because the one place that I wanted to order it, I couldn't order it without, they had pre-marinated it. Rabbit's not very common on menus. Is it more common in Australia?

Barry Conrad
It's not more common in Australia, but I tried it in Tenerife a couple of years ago and it was actually really good. Isn't it? It's very lean, right? It's very lean. It tastes like a cross between beef and chicken, but it was in like a stew, like a rabbit stew. It was really good.

It's a white meat, right? Is it white? Yeah, it's more on the white side and it's really, yeah, definitely melts in your mouth. It's really, really, really tender.

Melanie Avalon
Well, I okay, so I definitely want that. And with my two entrees, because I always got to get to probably a fish.

I like sole Dover sole, maybe I'll get Dover sole for dessert. The filet de sole menier tradition. Oh, you know, I took French and in high school in college, I should know how to say these things. And I don't. But it's Dover sole golden butter, spinach, whether with with or without oysters without with and I'll give them to Barry.

Barry Conrad
But you have to specify to them if you have to prepare them separately so that the flavor doesn't go into your...

Melanie Avalon
We can't have cause contamination of the oysters to my phyletosol. Oh, wow. Yes. How about you?

Barry Conrad
I would I actually want the all of the rabbit as well because that my eyes jump to that and I also want to get the main it's called the homade bose et la vie I'm guessing and it's called it's a main lobster sauce or por rah poms dofoni you're just loving it you also do you know how to say these words I feel like you're listening to me and just like having a like laughing

Melanie Avalon
I don't know that I, I should, like I said, I should know more. You know what it is? And I, we might've talked about this before. I feel like I kind of know how to say it, but I don't want to say it correctly because then it sounds like I'm trying to do a really fancy French.

No, I want to hear it. Making a note to self, never pick a French restaurant.

Barry Conrad
Then there'll be like people writing saying, how come you don't ever choose anything from France? Well, it has to be English.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and that's another that I mean, not regret, but I do wish I had kept up with learning French more like I wish I had, you know, I think we talked about this how like learning languages. We should do it.

We should learn languages.

Barry Conrad
I'm trying to slowly relearn Afrikaans, which is our second language. And I told you that.

And, but then I also would love to learn. I would love to learn like Spanish or something. And so it's actually an awesome, sexy language.

Melanie Avalon
Can you that's funny. I think I think French is the sexiest. That's probably why I wanted to like learn it. Yeah

Barry Conrad
And also because Spanish like salsa dancing or the whole thing, the whole situation is all wrapped up.

Melanie Avalon
So how much do you know of the wait, what is what is it actually called?

Barry Conrad
like enough to the point where like when I'm around it again, like I can pretty much understand and I can speak a little bit, but it's because I'm just so far moved from South Africa. Well, also it's good.

I really want, I think it's good to revisit your roots and know more about it, you know, rather than just, you know, get sequestered in a modern day society and forget everything.

Melanie Avalon
I agree so much. Quick question.

Between reading, speaking, and wait, reading and listening here, like understanding it, what are what, how do you rank those for your in general with languages? Like what's easiest for you or what's the order?

Barry Conrad
I think hearing for I think because I'm such an odd. Yeah, I think because it's like being a musician as well.

I learn a lot by hearing, even when I'm listening to speakers or like when it comes to like reading like audiobooks are really good for like nonfiction, but I like to read fiction, for example, but I absorb more information when I'm hearing it. I think

Melanie Avalon
hearing and then what would be second and then reading and then speaking. Oh, thanks.

Barry Conrad
So yeah, I don't know, actually, I think maybe hearing, then speaking, then reading, if it's a language, I think, because by doing, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
That's funny. We're complete opposite.

Yeah, for me, reading is the easiest. So like even with French, even though it's been a while and if I see it though, I can probably piece things together. And then second would be speaking and then hearing. Like when I hear it, I have to translate it into written in my head first. Should we do the desserts and the beverages?

Barry Conrad
The desserts look pretty good, not going to lie. It's a lot of... Sorbet-ish sort of vibes.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's a lot of it's like lighter. It's a lot of yeah.

Barry Conrad
refreshing. Yeah. I get the, I'm not going to say this right, but the passion mango sorbet, coconut cream and merengue.

Melanie Avalon
I love that you just read the English part of it.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I think that sounds really like refreshing after all that. What about you?

Melanie Avalon
I will get something that I'd already had from, well, it depends. If I really liked the, I have to go back to the menu. So if I really liked the beef tartare, I might get some more of that. Otherwise I might get another, another entree.

Dessert. I wonder what the duckling, is that like duck breast, do you think? I think so. That looks good. Duckling with cherries and foie gras.

Barry Conrad
What an interest. I like, I love Frogware actually. Do you like it?

Melanie Avalon
I don't actually know that I've had it. I'm sure I would.

Barry Conrad
I think you'd actually really like it.

Melanie Avalon
I just, it's basically though, the thing that concerns me is isn't it basically just like fatty liver of a duck or an animal?

Barry Conrad
It's really good though like it's like almost like a pate kind of thing like you have it on yeah it's really good like you don't like smother it in. I'm sure it tastes delicious honestly. It's very like decadent it's like it's not something that you just smack like you know have heaps of just like a little bit with a good wine but then it's really good.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome. And then is there a, oh, they have a dress code. I like that.

We politely request that you dress your best for your evening. Sign me up. Elegant for a New York for NYC night out. Oh, jackets are not required.

Barry Conrad
I think address, I think that's really good. And I think that should go, go without saying when you go to a dinner, nice to know you should dress your best.

Melanie Avalon
I agree. I always err on the side of what do you think between overdressing versus underdressing?

Barry Conrad
You can never be too overdressed when it comes to things like that because you just, I mean, even people might think it's extra, but I think it's better. I always feel worse when I turn up somewhere underdressed, it's worse. Same.

Melanie Avalon
I would always even it doesn't even matter what the event is if I had to pick between underdressing or overdressing I would always overdress. Yeah

Barry Conrad
And you just have to own it.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Which I have learned to do because I do it so often. Oh, man.

Barry Conrad
Are any of the drinks catching your eye or not? Is wine's by glass? I think, for this one, I'm actually gonna do wine. I'm not gonna do a cocktail this time.

I'm gonna do some of vino. The Chevelie looks really good. I'm gonna do the Domaine, Hamelin, Vaux, Lignay, Couche Chevelie.

Melanie Avalon
Okay so basically this is a massively long list. I love the Loire Valley so I would do a little bit more research but they have oh they have so many bottles from the Loire so I would look through those and probably pick one of those.

Barry Conrad
Seeing as I'm not gonna do a cocktail for this place, I'd probably just get a bottle of delicious Chablis. I reckon that could be quite nice.

Melanie Avalon
Nice. Ooh, and they have Fleury Boujolais, which I love. I wonder if this is organic. Let's see. Yes.

Okay. So I think by the glass, I would get the Domaine des Marons, Les Marons, Fleury Boujolais, 2023 Gamay. That sounds divine. This is a great wine list. This is like, this is my type of wine list for sure.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, you're way more versed in wine, that's something that I need to develop and expand my horizons on because I do love good wine, I just don't know as many of them at all.

Melanie Avalon
Well, we should hang out.

Barry Conrad
Try file mods.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I love that they're wine by the glass. It's an entirely French menu. Perfect. Absolutely perfect.

Okay, awesome. Well, good find. So when are you gonna go and get the rabbit and send me pictures? Actually, yeah, because I'm here. Yeah. Oh, that's a question for you. Do you go? Like, would you go to a fine dining restaurant by yourself and just like get food?

Barry Conrad
No, I wouldn't go by myself. I wouldn't be scared to, but I want to enjoy it with someone.

It's more like I want to experience it with company because I think food at best should be shared. I think it's so much nicer.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I actually don't know. Have you ever gone to a restaurant by yourself? I don't think I have.

Barry Conrad
not a fine dining room by myself. I've gone like, like, especially when I'm traveling and stuff, yeah, I don't mind.

But if, if I'm just like in my hometown, I wouldn't just typically go out on my own. But I mean, I also don't think there's anything wrong with that too.

Melanie Avalon
Well, I will say and shout out because I think we've talked about this before on the show, but going to movies by yourself is like the best. I highly encourage it.

It's no fun. I mean, go with people too, but don't be afraid to go by yourself is the point.

Barry Conrad
I think I'm going to a group movie thing this weekend at some point, I think Friday.

Melanie Avalon
with existing friends or new friends? Are you making new friends?

Barry Conrad
new so i think it's gonna but i think it's like i think it's like 10 people or something it's like a few people so that should be interesting all new friends

Melanie Avalon
that you've made already.

Barry Conrad
Not all like someone over i think as well the tricky thing about that is like i don't want to be talking like i like my movies i don't be talking to anybody do the movie like to try to.

Melanie Avalon
Do people talk during movies? I'm confused.

Barry Conrad
Sometimes.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, actually, I yeah, that that is a problem if you ever end up in a movie and you end up with a talker and you're like, okay, no, no, it's kind of like I will not give specifics, but I will save that I'm not going to share.

Barry Conrad
Okay, we'll save it. There's so many Easter eggs to share.

Melanie Avalon
I'll save it for next time, all the teasers of all the things to come next week.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny.

Melanie Avalon
Listeners, thank you so much for joining us. The show notes for today's show will be at ifodcast.com slash episode 437. That link will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out.

And if you want to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there and you can follow us on Instagram. We are ifodcast, I am Melanie Avalon and Barry is Barry underscore Conrad now in New York. Although when this comes out, you might not be in New York but you have a residence here now is the point.

Barry Conrad
Yes.

Melanie Avalon
So awesome. All right. Well, this was so much fun. I guess I will talk to you next week.

Barry Conrad
Talk to you next week, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
Bye. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

See you next week!

Aug 26

Episode 436 – IF For Vascular Health, Fasting And Jet Lag, Fasting And Nitric Oxide, Stem Cells Treatments, Vitamin C Serums, Beautycounter’s Return, The Fountain Of Youth, And More!

Welcome to Episode 436 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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LINKS

Featured Restaurant: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Perrone's Restarant and Bar⁠

⁠⁠If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 436 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 436 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Barry Conrad.

Barry Conrad
How's it going, everyone? How's it going, Mel? What are you doing? How are you doing?

Melanie Avalon
I am doing so well. Okay, you know, what's funny, I started doing the intro and then I, I couldn't remember if you, I mean, it hasn't been that long since you recorded.

I couldn't remember if I pause and then you say hello, or if I like ask you first. Like I forgot what I was saying, basically.

Barry Conrad
basically listeners, it's my fault because I'm really jetlagged. So my brain, if there's like a delay in any answers, it's because my brain is catching up to the jet lag because I've just officially moved to the United States of America on Saturday night.

Melanie Avalon
This is wild although although okay, so you moved here, but then you're gonna travel back to Australia for your show

Barry Conrad
Yeah, because initially I was looking at, oh, I'm moving in September, but I've officially like moved on the weekend because I'm just going back to our trip in July, you know?

Melanie Avalon
My goodness. This is wild. Yes. How do you feel?

Barry Conrad
Well, as I speak to you right now, I'm looking out over this amazing view of the city. It's just New York City and I cannot believe that I'm here. I feel so grateful, so pumped, so stoked. It's very surreal because we've talked about this Mel, like for ages and now it's happening. I'm actually at the same time as you, which is crazy too.

Melanie Avalon
I know oh my goodness we're like and you know what New York I feel like it feels so far away from me but the flight is not that long I don't think I don't I feel like it's not I feel like it's like shockingly not that long

Barry Conrad
to ATL. This is crazy.

Melanie Avalon
Maybe it's farther. Maybe I'm thinking of something else. Okay, wait, New York City.

Barry Conrad
Let's see. It is really surreal that we're in the same time zone because listeners at the moment, it's 9am, 904am on Wednesday in Australia.

And like we're the day, we're like a day before, which is crazy.

Melanie Avalon
And how many days have you been back officially?

Barry Conrad
So I got in like Saturday evening, so it's been like maybe three days, kind of full days sort of thing.

Melanie Avalon
So we have to talk about all things jet lag. Although before that, so direct flight from Atlanta to New York City, yeah, two hours and 10 minutes, two hours and 10 minutes to two hours and 15 minutes.

That's fast. That is, that is less than Lord of the Rings, like watching Lord of the Rings.

Barry Conrad
That's... I wasn't expecting you to say that, but that's true. Like, go into a shower.

Melanie Avalon
I've realized when it comes to time, anything that's in three-hour time chunks, I measure it by Lord of the Rings. Anything that is 10 minutes, I measure by Taylor Swift's All Too Well, the 10-minute version.

And anything that is 40 minutes, I measure by a TV show for like 20 minutes, like back when there was commercials.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, yeah, totally. Or even like the length of shows now on streaming, it's not that long. So yeah, 20 minutes tracks.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And so wait two hours and 10 minutes. That's actually, that's even less than most movies today. I feel, or a lot of movies today.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's like I'll just jump into playing and it's that quick. How crazy is that?

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. And this will be, this is old news by the time this airs, but you went to the Tonys, right?

Barry Conrad
i went to the tony awards on sunday night and it was insane so got here saturday my suit just made it because i had a suit customized for the the show and i had to pick it up after landing from this cargo carrier place and so did that sunday afternoon got rid of which the tony awards and it was the most incredible night i can't even put into words how inspired i feel how how many people were there i feel like this is like the best year could have gone like anyone you can think of was like there it was incredible mel

Melanie Avalon
That is insane. Talk about welcome to America. Welcome to New York City. What was your favorite part?

Barry Conrad
Well, Hamilton, the musical, had like a 10-year reunion, so like the cast, the original cast, performed immediately. Yes.

Melanie Avalon
No, I have to watch that. I didn't, I clearly did not watch the Tonys. If I had cable, I would watch. Oh my goodness. That's amazing.

Barry Conrad
And the whole room was like, those goosebumps, everyone was on their feet. It was crazy hysteria when that happened.

And they killed it. And then Cynthia Arevo hosted, she was amazing. Sara Bareilles sang. What did she sing? The Sun Will Come Out Tomorrow, you know, from Annie with Cynthia. They did like the stuette for people that have passed away. It was really beautiful.

Melanie Avalon
I'm seeing Waitress on Friday that she didn't, she write the music for that. Pretty sure. Yeah. That's amazing. Oh my goodness. Who'd you sit by?

Barry Conrad
I just sat with the people that I was invited with, a shout out to Michael Castle Group for making it happen, and basically Michael Castle Group, they had six Tony nominations with the picture of Dorian Gray, which is a play, and they won too, so that's amazing.

Melanie Avalon
Congrats to them. Oh my gosh, do they like go on stage and accept an award?

Barry Conrad
Yes, Sarah snook. I don't know if you know her. She was in succession. She's an Aussie actor, actually, and she's doing it on Broadway right now.

The picture of Dorian Gray and I still have to see it. Apparently, it's crazy, like amazing.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, that's so amazing. I am so happy for you. I think I was more excited, not more excited, but I think I was almost as excited as you about you going to this.

Barry Conrad
You actually were and you would have actually loved it Mel and just it's such a different culture like everyone loves to celebrate like ambition and being a go-getter and you feel like anything really is possible here which is man just people just come up to you and just say hey I'm so and so here's my number I'd love to help you it's like why you don't even know me I just got here so this is New York you know

Melanie Avalon
That's amazing. So is that a different culture in Australia? Like that vibe is not quite there in the same way?

Barry Conrad
It's not the same because culturally, Australia is more laid back, so if you sort of a go-getter, sometimes that can be like the tall puppy. Have you heard of this thing, the tall puppy syndrome?

Melanie Avalon
Is that like an Australian term? Wait, the tall poppy syndrome. Is that what American Australians call Americans?

Barry Conrad
It's kind of, see if you can guess what that means.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, I'm guessing it means that you're being like, like, look at me, do all the things annoying.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's basically like they want you to like, it's more like they'll cut you down and say, Oh, why, why are you doing that? You shouldn't do that. It's too much.

Whereas in America, I feel like generally, very generally speaking, that's, that's more celebrated if you want to get ahead and they love it and people love to collaborate and it's just different that way.

Melanie Avalon
So the tall poppy syndrome is not the person who's, it's the person who cuts the poppies. Yeah, exactly.

Okay, I guess that wrong. I thought the tall poppy syndrome was referring to the, like, the person who's trying to stand tall, but it's referring to the person who cuts them down.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's all puppies. But you know what, in saying that, and I'll, I have to be careful, because I do love Australia. It's one of the best places in the world.

I'm not heading on it. It's just a different culture. That's all.

Melanie Avalon
Well, I also think it's not that it's selfish, I think it's two things in America. So it's very much what you're saying where we celebrate ambition and doing all the things and, you know, you can do anything and that's what America is about, which we love that. That's, yes, sign me up.

And I also think because that's the spirit of things that people, not that people are sucking up to each other, but people see that people who are ambition will make it far and people here know that you want to be with people who are ambitious. So it's kind of like, I scratch your back, you scratch mine, but like people want to, it's collaborative and everybody wins. Do you get what I'm saying?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, exactly what you're saying. And I also don't think that's necessarily bad in some cases. Like, you know, I don't think that's a conniving thing. Like, I think it's also like a survival thing.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, yeah, no, so true. It's like, and it's like literally like we just understand the importance of social relationships and, you know, and we and celebrate success.

And I think it's like, appreciated and understood how that all goes together here.

Barry Conrad
I totally agree.

And Melanie, I have to share one thing as well, what a guest, see if you can guess what my very, my very first meal was on Saturday night. And we've talked about this before. So try to think.

Melanie Avalon
Did you go to one of the things?

Barry Conrad
I didn't because I was I was too tired from but ordered in but

Melanie Avalon
That would have been like, that would have been like a lot.

Barry Conrad
Committed to the cause straight from the

Melanie Avalon
I don't even remember which ones we listed, but oh my goodness. You ordered in oysters. Oh, wait, let me think. Okay, wait. So is it something that's specific to America?

Barry Conrad
think about something that I've like gone on and on about that's like this would be like my final meal.

Melanie Avalon
Oh man, I should remember this. Okay, hold on. I should know this.

Barry Conrad
Another clue is it's pretty American. It's not really an Australian thing, really.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. You're going to tell me and I'm going to be like, is it mashed potatoes? Is it pizza? Fried chicken, fried chicken, fried chicken. I got it.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I had soul food, so fried chicken waffles, mac and cheese, you got it, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I was going to say mac and cheese too. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I need to like, I need to like list off things and then for it to come to me. So, um, where'd you get the fried chicken from?

Barry Conrad
It's from a place called, I think it's called Sweet Chick and it's like a pretty popular place here. Everyone goes to New York, so I got it from there and it was delicious. I was kind of, in the end, getting tired while I was eating because of the jet lag, but it was so good now.

It was delicious.

Melanie Avalon
oh my goodness wow and speaking of jet lag so how have you how did you okay so how long you you said it's like how many hours from australia to here like how long was that trip total

Barry Conrad
in case of listeners and Melanie, it was first a three and a bit hour flight from Melbourne to Auckland, New Zealand, and then almost 16 hour direct flight from Auckland to New York.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so how did you so did you fast during any of that? Did you eat? What did you do?

Barry Conrad
I fasted during some of it. I fasted during all of the New Zealand flight and the waiting time and stuff, and then I ate a little bit on the plane, but I instantly regretted it because the food's just not great.

It was a mission, but I'm here now.

Melanie Avalon
Have you been using fasting to reset your circadian rhythm?

Barry Conrad
actually have so that's been really helping a lot so I've really pushed my fast I've done about 20 and a half hours today which is really good that's my first really really long normal normal fast protocol for me today so I feel much better but still getting there what about you what's the longest flight you

Melanie Avalon
Done? Wait, wait, wait. Quick question. So you're going to eat late tonight? You're going to eat after this?

Barry Conrad
So I'll probably have like a little something after this I reckon. I haven't eaten yet.

Melanie Avalon
Wow, you're doing it like Melanie style.

Barry Conrad
You know our shows, we do them in the evening listening, so I'm trying to get that Melanie schedule just to see if I like it, to see if it works with me.

Melanie Avalon
What you could do is, even if you don't like it, you could use it as a, here's my, here's my pitch for you. Are you ready? You ready for my pitch? Okay.

So say you, you could do your normal window every other day. So eat earlier. But then on these days, you could eat after. So that would give you one day a week, like a, a long, like a, that would give you like a, you know, a 36 hour fast or something, right?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I actually could do that. I could do a long, I could push it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I can see what I'm saying like do your normal thing And then have your one day a week and then you would automatically get a long fast

Barry Conrad
Yeah, just throw it in there like a bonus, you know?

Melanie Avalon
I like it. The problem for me is that I can't, because I already eat late, there's no way for me to do it.

There's no way for me to... The cool thing about the situation with you is you could still eat every day and get in a longer fast. I can't because I eat late, so in order to get 36 hours, I would have to actually go to bed again. I'd have to sleep in an empty stomach, if that makes sense.

Barry Conrad
That's not fun.

Melanie Avalon
Which I don't like doing, but to answer your question, the longest flight, um, I've only, I've only gone to Europe, so Europe stuff. I don't know what's farthest away with, it probably would have, oh, actually Hawaii.

Isn't Hawaii far?

Barry Conrad
How was pretty far, but it depends where you're coming from because I know it's like super far from Australia, but from Atlanta, I'm not too sure

Melanie Avalon
I think now it's like looking up all the, wait, I need to see, I need to see.

Barry Conrad
I feel like the UK would be quite far because you went there for like a Thanksgiving situation.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, but it wasn't. It wasn't that far. It was only the fight with the flight from Atlanta today was like six something hours

Barry Conrad
Yeah, actually, I was someone told me yesterday, actually, that someone invited me to come to a show in the UK. And they said it's actually like maybe like a seven, eight hour flight, because Singapore to Sydney time travel situations, not that far.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's like shockingly not as far as I thought it was. It looks like Atlanta to Hawaii. Oh, you can take a nonstop?

Barry Conrad
What did you do? Did you, you had connections?

Melanie Avalon
That's mind blowing to me. Yeah, I always thought that you connected like in LA or something. Okay, so it's nine and a half hours if you take a night, if you take a nonstop.

Barry Conrad
That's still not that bad.

Melanie Avalon
No. But then if you connect, then it's like, you know, 13 hours or something.

Welcome to New York. Did you play Taylor Swift's Welcome to New York? I should have sent that to you. Man, should have sent that to you on the day. I should have like played it. I should have sent you a message, a voice message and like played it.

Barry Conrad
Would you have sang it?

Melanie Avalon
No.

Barry Conrad
This conversation, right, about if you can sing really well.

Melanie Avalon
I sang in the past.

Barry Conrad
See, I think once a singer, always a singer. So I'll have, we might have to change that. Maybe I'll get like an exclusive.

Melanie Avalon
You'll get an exclusive performance of me singing. Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah, maybe not. We'll see. Never say never. Never say never.

Barry Conrad
Anyway, what about you? How's your week been? How's your past couple of weeks been?

Melanie Avalon
Well, it's good. I can actually, we have a question that asks about the biohacking conference so I can, I can tell you then about going to the biohacking conference. It sounds great. Perfect.

Okay. But before that, shall we do a study?

Barry Conrad
we should. So I am bringing a study today called Time-Restricted Feeding Improves Vascular Function in Healthy Humans. And it was published in 2024 by researchers at the University of Colorado Boulder and appearing in the journal Atarias, Chlorosis, Thrombosis, and Vascular Biology. And the reason why, Melanie, you know about this story already, but the reason why this hit quite close for me, hit home for me, was because a few years ago, listeners, I had a clot dislodged in my leg and shot up to my right lung. And I essentially had half of my right lung killed off. And it was a moment where it almost passed away. It almost died. And so any time, well, ever since then, I've been really cautious about anything vein or blood flow related.

So when I came across this study, linking intermittent fasting to vascular health, of course, it really appealed to me. And so this study, it involves involve 24 healthy adults aged between 25 and 55, which is not a huge, huge group of people, but the design was pretty solid. So each participant followed a four day control eating pattern first where they ate three meals spread across like a typical regular normal day. And then they switched to four days of early time restricted feeding, where all meals were consumed between 8am and 4pm. And so they were doing a clean love it, the clean 16 eight fast, but then they skewed earlier in the day that time. So what stood out now is that these weren't people with pre-existing issues, the vascular issues, they were healthy, no metabolic diseases, which makes things even more powerful. Because what the researchers saw was a significant improvement in endothelial function after just four days of time, just four days of time restricted eating. So listeners, if you don't know what that means, it's that refers to how well your blood vessels expand and contract. And it's a massive marker of like cardiovascular health. And then when it's impaired, you're looking at way higher risk for things like high blood pressure, heart attack, stroke, and clot formation, which is what happened to me. So the fact that they saw measurable changes in just a few days is awesome. But it gets better too, because they went deeper and looked at nitric oxide availability as well. So that's the molecule in your body uses to relax blood vessels and improve circulation. So after fasting, nitric oxide by availability improved as well. They also saw a reduction in oxidative stress, which is basically cellular damage caused by inflammation or free radicals. And that reduction further supported improved vessel function. So all this from shifting when the people ate, not what they ate, that's the key here. Not how much, just the timing. And I think that's the key takeaway. And there's this deeper layer to fasting, you know, that to a lot of people just goes under the radar, even to people that fast all the time, forgetting that it's not just about those scale victories, you know, it's not just the weight or the glucose or the willpower,

Barry Conrad
it's literally supporting our health, you know, our vascular system. And it's something I take incredibly seriously.

So of course, this was pretty short term and small, as I said before, we need bigger, longer trials to confirm more how long these effects last. But even with the small pilot, I think one thing's pretty clear is when you eat, when we eat matters. And it's just another reminder, Mel, that IF isn't just about the visible stuff. And yeah, it's protecting you from things you might never see coming. Mel, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, that is an incredible study. Thank you so much for finding it. And especially sharing your personal relationship to it, it's still so crazy to me that you went through that. And that just must, I don't know, that must give you so much gratitude for life, having been through that.

I think this is really, really powerful, especially because cardiovascular disease is the number one killer of people in general. I was just reading about it more the other day in a book and it was saying how pretty much, not that everybody gets it, but everybody pretty much when you die, you have some level of approaching cardiovascular disease just because of how prevalent it is and how it happens in the body. And so seeing, like reading the study, that's amazing that after only four days that they saw those effects. And then it's not just, you know, cardiovascular, anything that benefits your cardiovascular health and your vascular health benefits essentially your entire body. You know, like the brain, because the brain is relying on your vascular system to be powered. And so anything that affects your hearts, affects your brain, they call it clean fasting.

Barry Conrad
They specifically said they were doing a clean sixteen eight fast which is which is interesting right?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah, that's wild.

Barry Conrad
I don't think I've seen that in a study, like mentioned specifically, like a clean fast.

Melanie Avalon
That is so interesting. I wonder, honestly, you know, Jen Stevens, who used to be the the co-host on this show, like she really is the one who popularized the idea of the clean fast. I don't know if she originated it. She definitely, you know, is probably the reason it's out there is like a concept.

Shut up. Yeah. So, well, good find. Thank you for sharing.

Barry Conrad
Of course.

Melanie Avalon
So friends, support your heart with fasting and your body and your vascular system. And I guess with nitric, I always wanna say nitrous oxide.

Barry Conrad
Yes, I am, yeah, because of the wisdom teeth.

Melanie Avalon
Nitric oxide, I mean that probably benefits sexual health as well because I mean, it's not what a phiagra does. Yeah. Yeah, so everybody Everything in your body benefits the book I'm reading right now. I'm prepping is on dementia and cognitive decline and she was talking about Like the potential of Viagra for preventing cognitive decline for that same reason because of how it relates to nitric oxide Yeah, I think the studies are conflicting.

Yeah. Okay, basically there's interest surrounding it

Barry Conrad
That's wild. It's like, take fire, granule.

Melanie Avalon
benefit your brain.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, wow.

Melanie Avalon
Alrighty, well thank you for finding!

Barry Conrad
Of course.

Melanie Avalon
Shall we jump into some listener questions?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it. So we have the first question we have is from Stephanie and she asks, are you going to the biohacking conference? Where can I get a good vitamin C serum now that beauty counter is gone? And then sad face emoji.

What do you think about stem cells?

Melanie Avalon
All right, rapid fire from Stephanie. Rapid fire with longer answers.

So are you going to the biohacking conference? Well, by the time this airs, it was a while ago. But this is what I was saying in the beginning about I can share about my the past few weeks because I did go to the biohacking conference in Austin, that's Dave Asprey's conference. Next year, it's going to be called Beyond, like the Beyond conference. I think they're rebranding a little bit. But Barry, we were talking about this. We have to go. You have to come this year.

Barry Conrad
I really wanna.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, it's so amazing. Basically, it's just all these different brands and health and wellness are all in one room. So many podcast guests are there in person. I got to hang out with a lot of people that I've had on the shows. I also got to meet a lot of new brands. So I had a lot of like back-to-back meetings, just meeting all these different brands.

Like the new ones I met were I met a company called Sillient. I'm going to have them on my podcast. This was really interesting. They make a material that you weave into fabric and it actually takes your body's heat and turns it into infrared energy and puts it back into your body. So it's like clothing that helps your body's mitochondria and your energy. Actually, this is what was mind-blowing. They're in so many big brands. They're in like body armor, like the brand Body Armor and probably like 15 other pretty well-known brands, but they just haven't done any marketing around themselves. They've been in the shadows. So now they're creating their own product. It's a pillow. They actually gave me one. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm excited.

So I met them. That was cool. I met an electrolyte company where it's like electrolytes and hydrogen water tablet type thing. I met... Oh, this was fun. He was just on Dave Asprey's podcast actually. It's... Is it the first FDA-approved oral testosterone supplement? Maybe. I don't know if it's the first.

Barry Conrad
That's a game changer if that's the case because that's going to, wow, okay.

Melanie Avalon
if it's the first. It's definitely a big deal in the testosterone replacement world, although it's funny.

So I didn't realize that it's just for men, the FDA approval. So I had a meeting with them and I walked up and I was like, I am so passionate about this. We need more awareness about testosterone for women. And he was like, well, it's just for men right now. And I was like, okay, well, if you come on the show, can we talk about women a lot? So that was cool. But yeah, it was a really great experience. I got to go to the dinner, like they have some VIP dinners, I got to go to one and, you know, meet a lot of really cool people and they were, oh, Barry, how do you feel about EDM dances? Dances?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's with the right crew it's fun. I think it's fun. Did you go to one?

Melanie Avalon
So I've never been to one, so this was my first one and they had an EDM dance last night and apparently it was like some really big celebrity DJ, Steve Aoki, I think is his name.

Barry Conrad
Oh yeah, I know, Steve Okey, that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so he was the DJ and and what was cool is because it's just the conference. So it wasn't like it wasn't that I mean, it was it was a good group, like it was a good crowd. So it was fun, but it wasn't like horrendously, you know, you can't breathe crowded situation.

You know, it was like in a ballroom at a at a hotel. So that was fun.

Barry Conrad
Did you really get your dance on or were you being shy or were you really getting into it?

Melanie Avalon
Oh no, I love dancing, yeah, yeah, I was really into it and then somebody came up and handed me, handed me and my sister these like chocolates, chocolates, slightly psychedelic chocolates, we did not take them but I saved them, so I might.

Barry Conrad
It's like mushrooms or something, what is it?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Yeah. So not that I have those anymore, but if I did, yep, we'll see. Stay tuned.

Barry Conrad
Stay tuned, dot dot dot.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I highly recommend the conference. That's the question.

That was Stephanie's question. Friends definitely go, oh, and if you go, please come up to me and say hi, because I would love to meet people in person. That's honestly one of my favorite things.

Barry Conrad
No, honestly, I saw some of your photos and it looked, it looked amazing. Like I looked, I cannot wait to go and daddy, your sister as well said, Barry, Barry, you have to come to the conference. It's really good.

I'm like, well, you've got to make it happen.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, now it turned her into a biohacker. Now she's like, I think she, she was like on the fence. I don't know if she would identify as a biohacker, but she, this, this was the thing that like really sold it for her for, um, like, like, you know, liking, liking this world, I guess.

And we got to go see, she loves Jodha Spenza and we got to see Jodha Spenza. That was cool. See you next time. Bye.

Barry Conrad
So question about the dinner, the VIP dinner, you said, did you follow your fasting protocol? Did you eat? What kind of food did they have there?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, yeah. So I don't so that's my third time going to that dinner. And yeah, I didn't I didn't eat anything. And this is funny. So the table I was sitting at, I was sitting with a friend because it's like open seating and you can sit wherever. So I went and sat by one of my good friends. I met him through the company Stemmergem. I've had them on the show before. But in any case, at my table, so my friend was on one side of me and then on my other side was a bodyguard because somebody at the table was like that important that he had three bodyguards in the room. And I was telling my friend I and then and then Martin Luther King, sorry, Martin Luther King's like grandson. He was speaking at the conference, he came in the room and that was a lot of a high security situation. And that was right by me. And so I had a moment I was like, I'm either at this moment at like, the safest place or the least safe place. I'm not sure, probably both existing at the same time.

So yeah, it's a very high security room. It was it was really fun to answer your question with the food. The food was I think it was I gave mine away to everybody. I think it was steak. Yeah, I didn't eat any of it. Do you like you love steak? I know, but I don't I eat and then I go to bed. I you know, so if I so yeah, if I were to eat, I would just like fall asleep. It would take me out of my vibe.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I get it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it was fun. You must come!

Barry Conrad
I'm dead. It's happening.

Melanie Avalon
next year. And literally, we would get to hang out so much because it's if we stay in the hotel that it's in, you're just like there.

And so you like go to the stuff and then you hang out like I then afterwards, I went in the hotel lobby both nights until like really, really late hanging out with people. It's so fun.

Barry Conrad
It's happening, putting it out there.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes, yes.

Barry Conrad
Bookmark at this moment. Let's remember it.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Okay. So those are my, my answer to that. And then where can I get a good vitamin C serum now that beauty counter has gone well, Stephanie, by the time this airs, assuming they don't push the launch beauty counter supposedly came back June 25th. So hopefully that happened because we're recording before that. So that's really exciting, but it's actually not called beauty counter anymore. It's called counter. I'm assuming my link will be counter.com slash Melanie Avalon. They haven't told us yet how the link is going to work. Either way, counter.com put me as your reference. That should get you, that'll get you on my, my list. And I send free things to people. So definitely, definitely check that out. And another alternative is crunchy. I talk about them a lot. I love them. They also have a vitamin C serum. So they're great for that. You can go to crunchy.com slash Melanie Avalon for that use the code advocate 10 to get 10% off your first order. And then also I am obsessed with oral glutathione or so oral wellness is vitamin C serum. So there's this called citrine. I use it every night. It's really, really powerful for that. Go to Melanie Avalon.com slash oral AURO. And then you can go to oral skincare, which is in the top left and definitely check out their citrine serum. It's super high potency. It's 25% vitamin C and glutathione. It's a complex of those. It's ridiculously powerful. I did it again. Sorry. It's ridiculously powerful. He's actually, I saw him. So Dr. Patel, he's the one that's his company and I love him. He has a book called the Glutathione Revolution. I'm actually going to bring him on this show on the intermittent fasting podcast. So stay tuned for that. Oh, he told me that he's trying to make an even a higher potency one that's like 50%, but he's trying to figure out how to do it with the bottles because it literally like breaks down the bottles. So he's workshopping that. Those are my ideas for vitamin C serum.

And I'm just assuming that that beauty count are now counter. Well, I'm sure they'll bring back their vitamin C serum because that was one of their most popular things. And then for her last... Oh, and by the way, really quickly, if you want to get the latest updates from me on all these things, you can go to melanieavilon.com slash cleanbeauty. And wait, wait, wait, Barry, are you going to have a... I forgot. I know we went through your lineup. Are you going to have a vitamin C serum in your lineup?

Barry Conrad
Not yet. We're going to have a vitamin A serum. Yep. But stay tuned.

Melanie Avalon
Like a retinol alternative? Awesome. Okay.

So and then the last question, what do you think about stem cells? Okay, that's a big question. So I mentioned stem region a second ago, they make a supplement that supports your body's endogenous release of your own stem cells. And so stem cells are super powerful. If you want to learn more about all the science of it, definitely check out I've done two episodes with Christian Japro. He's, he owns that stem region company. Stem region is actually the title sponsor of the biohacking conference. So when you go to the biohacking conference, there's like a million sponsors, but stem region is like everywhere because they're the main sponsor. They're incredible. I adore them. Shout out to Stephanie and Christian. I'll put links in the show notes to the two episodes that I've done with them, because you will get the deepest dive of deep dive into stem cells, how they work in the body, what they do. Essentially, for people who are not familiar, we naturally have inside of us these, they're like immortal cells, basically, they're cells that there's different types, but they can become anything. So most cells in our body are differentiated into what they are. So like a liver cell knows that it's a liver cell, and it's not going to become anything else. You know, and your bone cells are bone cells, they're just going to be bone cells. Stem cells, they're like this blank slate. And when your body needs repair, or it needs to, you know, fix things, things that happen with aging, stem cells get released from your bone marrow, and they go to that part of the body and then they can actually repair and become that thing. That's why they're so powerful for healing. And that's why people will do like stem cell treatments. And the idea with stem cell treatments is that you are bringing in these cells that can basically, you know, repair things. Christian is very much sold on the idea that they are, you know, literally the fountain of youth and that he thinks aging and death even is depletion of stem cells. Like he thinks that when we die, it's, you know, we basically capped out, we tapped out with our stem cells. He is more about, like I said, endogenous release, because basically you have this bank of stem cells that you can have, but our bodies don't always release them or use them. So his supplement that he has, and he has a whole story about how he found it, like it was this supplement that was having these profound effects with people's healing. And then he realized the connection to stem cells. And it's like this wild journey. But so that's one option is the endogenous release, I do really recommend stem regen. It's incredible.

Barry Conrad
It's a good name too, Stemmergen.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah, it really is. So for that, you can get 15% off, go to Melanie Avalon.com slash stem regen S T E M R E G E N and use the code Melanie Avalon to get 15% off.

And then as far as like stem cell treatments. So I think there's a lot of potential there. It's still this weird gray area. Like it's not, it's gotten better, I think, but there's been a lot of, like I think technically stem cell treatments are illegal in the US, but people get around them by doing like exosomes or, or doing stem cells, but like tweaking it and labeling it as exosomes. Like I've done a stem cell treatment in the US. And it was actual stem cells. It wasn't exosomes. I don't know how they got around that, but they did. A lot of people will travel out of the US and get treatment and it's way cheaper out of the US. Basically, my comments on it are, I think it has so much potential. I wish that there was more research on it and that the legality issue would get more easier and clearer in the US because it is, you know, difficult to, it's difficult to find, difficult to go with somebody who trusts with all the issues surrounding it. And I think there's a lot of potential, but I just wish there was more studies.

Oh, that was a lot. Do you have thoughts Barry on vitamin C serums, biocompare and stem cells, all the things.

Barry Conrad
I feel like you answered that beautifully, Melanie. I don't think there's anything that I could add that could be any better than that. That was great.

Melanie Avalon
Have you done anything with stem cells before or thought about it?

Barry Conrad
I actually haven't I was gonna ask you the what what inspired you to to get stem cell treatment like why was it a health issue going at the time and did you feel any different after that process.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So it was an opportunity that was presented to me. It was a practice that wanted to collaborate. So they were starting to do stem cell treatments at their clinic and they basically offered to to do it for me at like the cost of basically they just charged me for the stem cells. They didn't upcharge anything as far as like I got it for a really good price is the point.

And they also used me for training. So like everybody was watching when they did it. The reason I was really interested in doing it was I had this injury in my knee that happened. I know when it happened. It happened actually when I went to D.C. for beauty counter in was that 2021? And my knee just always had this. It was really, really bad in the beginning, like the pain and then wasn't really going away. And it's hard to know. Basically, I don't have that issue now. It's gone. The issue is completely gone.

What's hard to know is they say it takes like six months from the injection until you'll feel better. So it's hard to know. It's hard to know like, Oh, well, would I have been better anyways after six months? You know what I'm saying? I think it would be more telling if I had done it on an injury. I don't have one of these, but if I'd had an injury that I'd had for like a decade, you know, or like at least like longer where I was like certain it wasn't going away. And then yeah.

Barry Conrad
Otherwise, it's like, is this placebo or is this the actual, yeah, I get what you're saying.

Melanie Avalon
Did I just, did my body heal on its own anyways? Um, but I do know, I mean, it is completely gone now. So I just know the injection was way worse than I thought it was going to be.

Barry Conrad
Like, what do you mean? Like, just like a big needle? Like, what's, what's

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah, the needle was massive massive like the biggest needle I've ever seen and then He they freeze the skin so he froze it and he's like you're not gonna really feel it cuz it's gonna be frozen Oh, and it was so painful And it took so long like like to like push it in and I was just like in my head I was like, oh, this is not this does not feel good. This is not feel good

Barry Conrad
Did they give you anything to deal, handle that pain or not?

Melanie Avalon
No, no, in retrospect, I probably would have doped myself up before, but we survived. So it probably, it probably helped that so many people were watching because, you know, then you're in like performance mode and like fight or flight, you know?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, exactly. It was really interesting what you said about the theory on stem cells being, you know, us dying or even aging as lack of stem cells or stem cells being depleted, that I've never heard before.

That's interesting.

Melanie Avalon
It's really interesting. I mean, that's just his theory, and he's very open that that's just a theory for him, but that's what he thinks it is. He thinks death is like stem cell exhaustion.

Barry Conrad
So basically, you know, in some reality, let's go to like this, the stem cell vending machine, and just buy like a new cartridge and just like you measure like battery levels going up and you rejuvenate it again. Like I'm just, you know, some futuristic universe. That's maybe a thing.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, well, what's really interesting is I mentioned stem cells being immortal and I should clarify, I don't mean that they're immortal, but what I mean is basically, at any given point in your body, you have these cells that are young cells. Like the stem cells are, even if you're old and you even if you're like, you know, in your 70s or 80s, and you release endogenous stem cells, those stem cells are young, you know, and then they can become anything.

And Dr. Walter Longo talks about this as well in his book. He talks, maybe it was David Sinclair, one of them, maybe both of them. People talk about as well, how it seems like in theory, our bodies would hold the key to immortality because we can make embryos that are like a, you know, a brand new human. So it's like if we can do that, in theory, it's possible for cells to become, you know, completely new and young again.

Barry Conrad
Very interesting. So.

Melanie Avalon
Yep.

Barry Conrad
And I know that you, and I know that Melanie, listeners probably already know this as well, your thoughts on longevity as well, on living, you wanted to live, you know, live a long, live a long life. Live forever.

Melanie Avalon
I'm I'm all about it. So

Barry Conrad
Only if you look the same, right? Not like not.

Melanie Avalon
Right. Yeah, I'd like to like tap. I'd like to, yeah, plateau at a certain or age backwards, if required. It's funny, whenever I hear stem cells, because I was raised in a very Christian church and it was during the time and I went to a Christian private school and it was during the time that there was all the stem cell controversy was when I was in like high school, I think. I remember hearing like stem cells and like thinking, oh, those are really bad because because there was a lot of controversy around embryonic stem cells.

But what I want to clarify now is it's not, well, a few things. One, the embryonic stem cells they were using presumably were stem cells that would have been thrown away anyways, but that's a whole, that's a whole another topic. Now it's not, it's typically not embryonic stem cells that are used. It's typically, it could come from a lot of different places, but it came from like the placenta rather than the embryo. There's other places it can come from. I should be more knowledgeable on this, but it's not typically embryonic stem cells that are being used today is my point. That's super fascinating, Mel. I know. I'll be really curious. I'll be curious to see what happens in the future with all of this. So should we have our proverbial breaking of our fast?

Barry Conrad
We actually should and you know what I think today more than any of the show in recent times I feel like super ready so like this is going to be awesome.

Melanie Avalon
because you're fasted, right? Well, actually, wait, you're normally fasted, right? Or normally you're fasted, but it hasn't been as long. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, you're feeling it. Okay, yeah, welcome to my world. Again, how many times can I say that? I'm picking this one, right? Yes, so I have a surprise for you. It's not a Disney restaurant. It's not? No, and actually, I was actually gonna do another non-Disney one, but then today, a listener, shout out to Christina, she suggested this restaurant.

Barry Conrad
Oh wow. Shout out Christina.

Melanie Avalon
I know. So I'm going to tell it to you, but first I want to read her message about it. Can I read her messages?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, let's hear it.

Melanie Avalon
So this is where she lives, I guess. So she said, we're going out to dinner Saturday evening to our favorite place.

And I was just playing the menu game and realized that this is one for Mel and Barry Conrad. She said, and then I asked her, why does she like it? And she said, the quality of the food is off the hook. The diversity of the dishes, the varietal of meats. There's always something so different and the vibe is fun. When you read the menu, you can see that they've got a great sense of humor, very tongue in cheek. Barry will flip for the oyster caviar service menu and all the spirits. I think you will be very happy with the wine list. I am a big fan of the cocktails. They're also on the SOS app, the Seed Oil Safe app. And then she says, last time we went, there was a rack of lamb that was amazing, but I didn't see it this time. They changed it up frequently. I can't wait to see what you guys order.

Barry Conrad
Wow, that sounds delicious, Christine. Thanks so much for the tip.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, and so when I looked at the menu, it's really cool. They're into like all sustainable and local sourcing and they have wine awards. So let me send you the link.

Barry Conrad
Hey, let's, I can't wait to check it out now. That lamb sounded legit. I love lamb so much.

Melanie Avalon
So it's called Perron's Restaurant and Bar, changing lives one dish at a time. And they say, let me see where it is. So it is in Polly's Island, South Carolina. They say on their main page. So they say that their menu is always a work in progress, that they always evolve and change it with the goal of creating one of the area's most unique, exciting and delicious food experiences.

They consider it world cuisine with a Mediterranean focus. They're all about local and organically sourced when available. Their proteins are growth hormone and antibiotic free. They use local poultry farms, ranchers, fishermen, crabbers, clamors and shrimpers, sustainably farmed salmon. And let's see, they're very serious about their cocktails, wines and beers. They have a wine spectator award-winning wine list and they have a core event so that you can, you know, try vintage and price your wines. So shall we look?

Barry Conrad
Let's have a look. I'm going to click on the, should I click on the menu here? Appetizers.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Okay. So appetizers. Wait. Hey, so app. Okay, wait. So we have options. So there's appetizers, entrees, chop house, caviar service oysters. Should we look first at the caviar service oysters?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I reckon that'll be before, you know, like before the substantial entrees. Okay, perfect.

Melanie Avalon
So, well, we know, we know how I feel about oysters at the moment, at the moment, but I like caviar. So what would you get from this?

Barry Conrad
Okay. And here's that word again, shucked. So I'm going to get, there's oyster shooters, listen, so fresh shucked oyster of the day. I'm not going to, there's the Japanese Bloody Mary. I don't love Bloody Mary drinks in general, so I don't think I'm going to like that one.

There's the caviar oyster shooter, which is, oh, there's the caviar, sorry, which is American hackleback Russian standard platinum vodka, creme fraiche, seaved egg, and chives. I reckon I'm going to do that. And then I'm also going to do, uh, there's so many options here. I'm, ah, what I'm going to do the, the gold service Royal Beluga.

Melanie Avalon
I knew you were going to get that. How'd you know? Because you like the... We talked about the Volugas, the fancy pants one, right?

Barry Conrad
Yep and it's got like warm blini, seed oil-free sea salt, kettled potato chips, creme fraiche, seed farm egg chives, chilled caviar. So delicious. What about you Mel?

Melanie Avalon
I love that they put seed oil free on the menu.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, that's specific. It's good.

Melanie Avalon
So I think I like the, I want to try the smoked trout row and chips, but not the chips, but it can be on the side.

Barry Conrad
So can I have those? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
you can so like plain do they have just wait caviar eggs so they don't have just plain caviar right oh oh yeah they do yeah they do the silver service oh right oh well you got the royal beluga caviar so i'll i'll like taste that if you'll let me taste it and then and then i'll take wait you did get some oysters right or did you not

Barry Conrad
I got some oysters shooted. I got the...

Melanie Avalon
Oh, right, wait.

Barry Conrad
Oh, I didn't get oysters, I said, I didn't get oysters, no, no, no, no, no. Oysters in the half shell, I'll do that for sure, fresh oysters.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, I will maybe taste one of those.

Barry Conrad
It's gonna happen now. It's closer. It's more of a chance now that I live here because I you know I feel like I'm creeping in it's coming in and it's gonna happen

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. I'll taste it for you. I'll take one for the team. That's why I'm here.

Barry Conrad
Should we go to the appetizer slash entrees?

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Or wait, yes, yes, yes.

And there's also the steakhouse or the chop house option. Oh, it's all on here as well. Oh, it's on here. Oh, and it's the chop house. Oh, this is the full menu it looks like. Okay, so starters. Is there a starter that you like?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, the starters, you know what, I'm definitely going to do, have to do a burrata. I love burrata cheese so much. I'm doing that.

I'm going to have the, from what I can see here, there's dry aged salmon roulettes. That sounds really good. It's a spreadable dip, poached coho salmon, dry aged in house, smoked salmon per nod, salt and shallots, lemon zest, butter and crème fraiche. So the toasted baguettes, that sounds really good. And then last but not least, I have to get the mussels, Bangkok mussels. You, Mel, you haven't tried mussels, right? Have you? You said this. It could be a lucky day, oysters and mussels.

Melanie Avalon
if I can, like, get to, actually, I might, seeing what's on the muscles, I might actually just, I might try them in the, the sauce. Maybe, maybe, we'll see.

I think I would get maybe the Wagyu steak tartare, plain, everything on the side, if possible. Oh, it's from Georgia.

Represent. And yes, yeah, yep. And I don't have to specify how to order because tartare is rare or raw, which we love. I love

Barry Conrad
Blue Raw. Also Mel, I just realized I could have gone to this place because I went to Charleston a couple years ago. If we had been doing the show then I could have ducked in.

Melanie Avalon
Oh man, next time.

Barry Conrad
Okay, well, should we go down to the soup and salad? You into the soup and salad, are you going to skip that?

Melanie Avalon
I'm gonna skip. Feel free to get something though, if you like.

Barry Conrad
You know what, I'm just going to do the crab soup because I do love a good seafood chowder type situation. So North Carolina, lump blue crab.

You know how I feel about trying things from the actual area. So doing that crab soup.

Melanie Avalon
And I love what they say, I mean, you didn't get a salad, but all of their dressings are made in house from scratch with no processed or refined oils. So there's no trans fats. And they use non GMO, expeller pressed avocado oil and cold pressed extra virgin olive oil. That's super cool. That's first.

Barry Conrad
It's good.

Melanie Avalon
It's for all the, because there's all the concerns about the seed oils. Okay, for Andre, what are you going to get? This looks, there's so many things I want.

Barry Conrad
I know. Oh man. Uh, what am I going to get? Okay.

Here we go. I feel like I'm going to do the, the USDA prime ribeye 16 ounce. It's a prime chop. I'm going to get that medium rare. And then I'm also going to get with that side of mushrooms and onions. Love mushrooms so much. Bacon, mac and cheese and some roasted butternut squash.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I'm gonna get definitely the elk tenderloin for sure, grass-fed pasture raise, cooked sous vide to medium rare. Oh, specified, I wonder if I can get it rare. I'm gonna ask if I can get it rare. I'll get everything on the side.

It's a lingonberry and pork sauce. If you wanna try it, otherwise I'll get it without it. I'll try it. Okay, on the side, lingonberry and pork sauce, organic grain, medley and grilled vegetable. And then I also want a fish. So depending on what the fresh catch of the day, okay, so if the fresh catch is trout, then I will get that.

Otherwise, interesting that it's a dry aged salmon. That's interesting. Well, I think it depends. Yeah, either the fresh catch, depending on what it is, or then I might switch it up and get duck, which is jurgle wicks. I don't know what that is. Duck breast, pan seared, two potato mash and grilled vegetable, blackberry pork demigle.

Barry Conrad
That sounds pretty good. The Blackberry report doing glaze sounds interesting.

Melanie Avalon
Interesting, too, that the fish is, that they already say how it's prepared, you know, that they don't adjust it based on what the fish is, but it's with black forbidden rice with a sauce of saffron, preserved lemon, shallots, white wine, shrimp stock, and cream. So it must always be a fish that goes well with that, you know.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, the combination. Yeah. I actually drink many. We need to definitely check out their wireless cocktails.

Melanie Avalon
Oh yes, and the dessert.

Barry Conrad
Happy ending slash liquid dessert slash dessert. Let's do that first.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, I like the quote says seize the moment. Remember all those women on the Titanic who waved off the dessert cart. Alcohol and dessert because adulting is hard.

Barry Conrad
I like that. I like these quotes. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Me too.

Barry Conrad
Is anyone catching? Is anything anyone? Is anything catching your eye on this dessert menu, Mel, that you can see?

Melanie Avalon
Desserts, I will probably get another entree, some fish or something. If I were to order a dessert in my, you know, dream world where I eat desserts. Oh, wait, these are drinks. Where's the actual?

Barry Conrad
If you go all the way right down to the bottom of the page.

Melanie Avalon
Probably, I would just get the house made ice cream.

Barry Conrad
Yeah? Mm-hmm. That sounds pretty good.

Melanie Avalon
How about you?

Barry Conrad
I'm gonna get a couple of things, see if you can guess.

Melanie Avalon
I think you want the warm chocolate layer cake. Yep, you got it. And you're going to add a scoop of ice cream. Yep, you got it. And then you want, do you want creme brulee?

Barry Conrad
Yes. Well, I was going to say, how'd you know? It's like, Barry, we've done this.

I'm a creature of heaven when it comes to ordering food. I think Melanie knows that. I think you all listening know that as well.

Melanie Avalon
Was there another one that you wanted or those two?

Barry Conrad
I think those two because I had, I've added a couple of things in the savory. So I reckon that's pretty good.

And then definitely to find a, they said they were famous for their cocktails, right? So yeah.

Melanie Avalon
and I'm gonna look for the wine list while you're looking at the cocktails. See, we work well as a team.

Barry Conrad
See? I already know what I want from the cocktails.

Melanie Avalon
Do you see a cocktail that you like?

Barry Conrad
I do. So I am eyeing the chili margarita. Surprise, surprise. Gonna do that.

And then also I'm going to try the casa fresca, which is like fresh muddled mint, lime and cucumber, agave, splash of grapefruit, and club soda.

Melanie Avalon
I, okay, this wine list is really low.

Barry Conrad
And if you happen to spot a decent looking Pinot Grigio mill, I definitely will get that for like the table. AKA probably, I don't know if you'd have it, but I'd be sipping in that as well.

Melanie Avalon
They have a Pinot Grigio from Italy and they have one from Oregon.

Barry Conrad
I'd probably go the idly one.

Melanie Avalon
And then for me, I'd have to look up and find if these are organic or not, but I would probably get something French. They have a few bougoulets. I love bougoulets.

So I probably, they have four bougoulets from France. So I think I would look up those and see which one is organic. And because they have a, see what it says about the tasting. I'm guessing that, because they said earlier that they had the Coravinne, so I wonder if they, if you can like taste the ones by the bottle, that would be super cool if you can. I'm not sure if you can. So something French, I'm thinking, oh, or am I get, they have two burgundies. So maybe one of those.

Barry Conrad
Either way, they weren't lying when they said they had a long list. It looks pretty good from what you're saying.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, they have four burgundy pinot noirs. Okay. So yes, I basically would look through the four burgundy pinot noirs and the four Bourgeois, and I probably would do, I would do one of those to be determined. So thank you, Christina, for the recommendation.

Thanks for the, thanks so much, Christina. We're going to have to check it out when we're there sometime.

Barry Conrad
The restaurant tour we were doing was going to be like a spin-off like it's going to be.

Melanie Avalon
That would be so fun. We could go to every restaurant that we've had that we've like mentioned.

Barry Conrad
You'll like whittle it down like you look this massive tall and then people get to see actually what you know how we eat really for real

Melanie Avalon
really fun. That'd be a lot of travel though. I don't know if I got to like, I got to prepare myself mentally for that. That's yeah, we'll think about that.

Barry Conrad
We may need to do like maybe like a road trip version, like just in America or something, or just Europe, or just pick a country and then...

Melanie Avalon
Maybe once I have a private jet and we can just like easily go there. I don't know if I can do all that trouble.

Barry Conrad
Barry's doing it, I'll just sleep. You can video me in. So funny, sounds good.

Melanie Avalon
All right. Well, this was super fun. Listeners, we hope you enjoyed today's show.

These show notes will be at ifodcast.com slash episode 436. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And you can get all the stuff that we like at ifodcast.com slash stuff we like. You can follow us on Instagram. We are ifodcast. I am Melanie Avalon, Barry as Barry underscore Conrad. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad
No, thank you so much for tuning in everyone and we will chat to you next time. Talk to you soon, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
talk to you next week. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes.

We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

See you next week! you

Aug 18

Episode 435 – Lemon Water Or LaCroix During Fasting, Sudden Weight Gain After Fasting And Maintaining, Genetic Metabolism Differences, Eating In The US Vs. Other Countries, Overeating Protein Vs. Fat, Fetal Nutrition, Agency In Health And Weight, Water Weight Gain, And More!

Effect of protein overfeeding on energy expenditure measured in a metabolic chamber2

Welcome to Episode 435 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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Featured Restaurant: ⁠Gimlet⁠⁠⁠

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⁠⁠If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 435 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 435 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad
Melanie, I'm doing really, really good. The sun is shining.

It is 11.30 a.m. here in Melbourne, and I just got some, actually before we started recording earlier today, I got some really exciting news. Well, it's exciting for me as an actor and singer-songwriter. I am going to the Tony Awards. I'm going to the Tonys.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my gosh. In the US, you got invited. Do they invite you? What happened? They invited you? Tell me more.

Barry Conrad
It's pretty crazy, right?

Melanie Avalon
When is that?

Barry Conrad
Yes, like June, I want to say June 6, I think, but it's basically, no, it's not June 6, it's June 9. It's somewhere around there, but it's like three days after I land in New York.

Melanie Avalon
That's so epic. What is up for Best Musical this year? Do you know?

Barry Conrad
It's a pretty stiff competition this year.

Melanie Avalon
best new musical oh this makes me feel i thought i was like on top of it with listening to all the new musicals but i guess not because i have not listened to buena vista social club dead outlaw

Barry Conrad
Death becomes her.

Melanie Avalon
Death becomes her, maybe happy ending, Operation Mincemeat. Wait, I don't know any of these. I, I, I, what? Okay.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. Because you listen, you like to listen to some tracks, right?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah. Okay, like I've listened to revivals. I've listened to Sunset Boulevard. I'm so behind. Oh my goodness, that's so exciting.

Barry Conrad
I'm so excited. Basically, a producer that I've done a musical with in the past, he knew it was going to be in New York, and he produced Sarah Snook's, the show, the play that she's in called The Picture of Dorian Gray, and it's up for six Tonys, which is amazing for him, you know, to be an Australian producer. But he was like, you're going to be there at the same time? Do you want to come to the Tony Awards? I'm like, what? Yes.

So that's wild. Like the first thing, like Landon, New York, essentially, like, you know, first thing is like Tony Awards. That's crazy.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Talk about welcome to New York as Taylor Swift would say. Right. I cannot wait. Please share all the photos and all the things. This is so exciting.

Barry Conrad
He also said to take it to the Sony Awards and the after party. So imagine what that's going to be like. That's next level, right?

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, that's crazy. Oh my goodness, I am so happy for you. I'm gonna be living, you better post so much stuff.

Barry Conrad
It's kind of going to be one of those things like, I don't know, like, you know, you kind of have to feel it out like just, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure I'll get photos for sure. But I'm going to see what the vibes like what like those are like massive stars.

Like, you know, I don't know what that's going to be. I hear you.

Melanie Avalon
I feel like though, I feel like when I see, when I watch like the Oscars and stuff, there's always like the pictures of like the celebrities like taking selfies and stuff.

Barry Conrad
That's true.

Melanie Avalon
You know, I feel like we've entered an era of like, there was like a, like a moment where it was like, I don't know. I feel like it's just a thing now.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I think so too.

Melanie Avalon
But yeah, totally feel it out. Oh my goodness, so exciting.

Barry Conrad
If i could bring it plus one which i can't but if i couldn't do it definitely would be someone that asked to go because i know that you like that you love going to things like that.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, honestly, if you've been able to, I'm going to biohacking conference next year. I'm just thinking like I would go, I'm pretty sure. Just for one night though.

Barry Conrad
Well, you might get on the plane really tired because the after party, you might be like, oh, did I really need to do one night?

Melanie Avalon
I mean, but that's the thing, like when I do these one night things, it's always something crazy the night before and I'm always the next day on the plane, like, I'm actually usually pretty good because I have my glutathione, I have my NAD.

Barry Conrad
Also, to clarify, listen, when she's saying one of the things she's talking about, one like traveling situations, let's just like make that clear in case someone tunes in. Power through what to do these things.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, just just one night, Barry, you know, my one night traveling. I like to travel and like do the event, do the thing and then go home the next day, so I totally would go.

Barry Conrad
What were you saying about the biohacking conference? Tell me about it.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, that's next week for me. This is going to be so in the past when this comes out. Excited? Yeah, I really am.

Man, we, I mean, the timing is like just off if you had been, you know, a little bit earlier to the US.

Barry Conrad
I know but but guess what i'm gonna be there next year exactly so that's gonna be very very realistic very doable.

Melanie Avalon
I'm really excited. I'm excited to see, it's nice to see all these podcast guests and friends that I've made through the shows through the years and see them in real life and all the brands are there.

Yeah. I'm excited. It's going to be fun.

Barry Conrad
Do you get nervous when you go to things like that? Oh, not really.

Melanie Avalon
No, I did the first time. The first time I went, I was very nervous.

Barry Conrad
Really? What were you nervous about? Like, just like be like, cause it's the first time just.

Melanie Avalon
I was so nervous, I hadn't, yeah, because I hadn't gone to any conference really before and all these people that I like kind of know and the people I look up to, I was like what, you know, I went, the first year I went completely by myself, the second year I went, my photographer came with me, but the first year I went, I just went by myself and yeah, I was like, am I gonna like make friends? And I made friends like really quick and it was amazing, so, and now I just feel like I know so many people, it's gonna be fun, next year.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, is there anyone that you're really looking forward to meeting in real life that you've been meaning to? You haven't met yet?

Melanie Avalon
So I think the majority of the people that I want to see, I actually, yes, there's actually, there's a few. I just recently interviewed Dr. Michael Ruscio again. I had him on this show, actually. So he was on this show for episode 68, wow, in 2018. And then I just interviewed him again for the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, but I've been listening to his podcast for way before 2018, probably since like 2014. So he, hopefully he'll be there. I'm excited to meet him.

And then I'm also really excited to meet, I just interviewed Kasia Urbaniak. She wrote A Woman's Guide to Power. It was fascinating. She actually, her background is as a dominatrix and also she studied to become a Taoist nun. What? Yeah. And she basically, she took, she's taken what she learned from that, the work as a dominatrix. She's noticed like the role of power dynamics in relationships. So she, the book is about how it applies throughout society, like not necessarily just like between men and women, like with everybody. It's a really fascinating book and I really liked getting to interview her.

So she's going to be there. So I'm hoping to meet her. And then it's a lot of people, I'm sure there's some other people I haven't met yet before, but it's going to be a lot of people that I already know and have met.

Barry Conrad
It's so exciting. Awesome. It's kind of like a high school reunion. You don't see everyone because everyone's busy doing their thing and they catch up with everyone.

Melanie Avalon
It's like so fast. And you're literally just talking to people like the whole time and you still don't even get to see everybody you want to see. And like the expo is just, you know, I don't know how many brands it is, probably like a hundred. And it's all these brands I know. So like I get to see them and like, you know, like things I love like Sunlighten and oral glutathione and you know, red light therapy. And yeah, I'm excited.

It should be, should be fun. So yeah, well, it's so exciting things coming up. I can't wait to hear about the Tonys. Cannot wait.

Barry Conrad
And I can't wait to see all of your posts and stuff about the conference.

Melanie Avalon
Fun times. Okay, shall we jump into things for today? Let's do it. So to start things off, I am bringing the study today and it's actually two studies.

Barry Conrad
Okay.

Melanie Avalon
But the reason I'm doing two is because I read one study and it was really interesting and then I went on a rabbit hole and I found something that kind of provided further context and clarity about the prior study. So the first study is called Effect of Protein Overfeeding on Energy Expenditure, measured in a metabolic chamber. And this study is actually from 2015, so it's a little bit older, but it was published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, which is like one of the main journals out there. And basically what they were looking at is they were talking about how people's metabolism increases when we overeat, but how is that affected by what you're actually eating, like protein versus fat? And how does that affect your body composition and energy, your metabolism and things like that? So they had 25 participants and they ate 40% excess energy, which is a lot. And they did that for 56 days, which is crazy because this was a metabolic chamber. For that, that's where you actually go in, it's so tightly controlled that they can actually measure your metabolism by the gases in the air, which is crazy because of how much carbon dioxide and stuff that you're exhaling. So they had people on 5% protein diets, 15% protein diets, or 25% protein diets. And they measured their metabolism, like their 24-hour metabolism and their sleeping metabolism on days 1, 14, and 56 of overfeeding and on day 57. Oh my goodness, that's so much overfeeding.

So what's really interesting is that for the low protein diet group, they were more so testing, they're calling it low protein, but it was basically excess energy from fat. So the ones that were not excess energy from more protein were excess energy from fat. And they found that the participants that had excess energy, primarily from protein, that it actually increased their metabolism, both 24 hours and when they were sleeping, but not for those that overate on fat. So I think this is really, really important because it goes to show the importance of the composition of our diet. And if you're overeating and you overeat on fat, your metabolism is not necessarily going to ramp up to compensate, whereas if you overeat protein, it does. And what's interesting is I don't know where I thought that the metabolism increase would have come from. I guess I would have thought that it would come more from like digesting the protein and just like burning more calories overall, but they actually found it was pretty specific to increases in like the liver and organs that are processing the protein. So that's where this extra energy processing actually came from. This boost in the metabolism actually came from. But what I thought was really interesting was so there's this study that shows that if we overeat protein, metabolism kind of goes up, but not if we do fat. But then I found this other study and it was called reduced adaptive thermogenesis during acute protein imbalanced overfeeding is a metabolic hallmark of the human thrifty phenotype. And so this was published in 2021 also in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

Melanie Avalon
And what's fascinating about this is what they were trying to look at was how do people's metabolism change when you're overeating specifically based on whether or not you're this thrifty or this spin thrift phenotype. And we talked about this in the past.

I think we talked about it most recently. We talked about it when like how does your body temperature change when you're fasting. And I was saying that there are studies on people who have a more thrifty phenotype, which is basically their body wants to more aggressively preserve their the weight state that they're in. Those people tend to get colder during fasting because their metabolism, their metabolism slows down more during fasting, compared to the spin thrift phenotype where they'll stay warmer while fasting. I think that's when we last talked about it. But what this study was looking at was the difference. And this was also using a whole room indirect climatry, which is a similar situation where you're in a room. So that's how they can really measure people's metabolism and see how things are changing. And they found, so the participants were put into different overfeeding conditions. So it was either low 3% protein, high 30% protein overfeeding, and then three normal 20% protein diets. And the participants were eating 200% of their normal metabolic requirements for food. So they were basically like doubling what they should have been eating. And they found that people's response in their metabolism varied. So some people, the people that were that spin thrift type, so the type that is not thrifty, they had a greater increase in their 24 hour metabolism by between 100 to 300 and two calories a day compared to the thrifty phenotype. So their conclusion was basically, if you're this thrifty phenotype genetically, even if you overeat, you have a limited capacity to actually compensate by burning more calories from that. What's really interesting about this, and I'll just say really quickly, this can really help explain why some people feel like they just look at food and they gain weight. Like whenever they overeat, they tend to easily gain weight. But some people just don't when they overeat, and it's probably a lot of it is genetic, which is really interesting.

And one of the things they did say was, where does this come from? And they proposed that it might actually come from your birth nutrition state. So babies with low birth weights, so if they're not getting full nutrition in the womb, or if they're just not as nourished in the infant state, then it might make them more likely to be this thrifty phenotype. So throughout life, their body might try to more conserve energy. And it goes both ways. So basically, people who have the thrifty type, they under eat. They are less likely to lose as much weight from it.

Melanie Avalon
And if they overeat, they're less likely to burn that off as well. So basically, it just makes it kind of rough.

If you're the thrifty phenotype when it comes to weight loss. So the reason I thought it was an interesting follow-up to the other study was because the first study was looking at the difference between overfeeding protein versus fat and it was saying that you know if you overfeed protein your metabolism is probably going to increase more but then it looks like there's this other layer as well which is what is your phenotype and it might be genetically some people are going their metabolism is going to adjust more if they overeat and others it's not going to. So yeah those are my my two studies. What are your thoughts?

Barry Conrad
That's super, super interesting, especially like the, or even going back to the first one, you were talking about the 40% overfed. That's, that's a lot and for 56 days as well, and just how the, I actually didn't know that there was, that there was such a difference between the metabolism changing based on protein versus fat. So it's not just overeating anything. It's overeating in the protein, which I think that's even just marginally like ramped up metabolism, not just during the day, but even overnight while sleeping, it's pretty amazing.

And it confirms like, I guess not all calories are created equal when it comes to, I guess how our body processes and uses them, which is super interesting and the spin thrift versus the, who cares about these, these types, like the names spin thrift and thrifty phenotypes, it does sound like the thrifty folks have it rough. So that's like, you know, you're, and I wonder, it's so, is it nature versus nurture then cause you're talking about the baby, like how early, you know, how that can, does that help shape what type you are or do you think it's just completely a hundred percent genetic, like if you're genetically thrifty overeating barely moves the needle and your body like clings to those calories sort of thing.

Melanie Avalon
It's such a good question. It's like, it's like, because, you know, like I was saying, and you just mentioned, they posit that it might have to do with like the birth weight and the nutrition of the baby in the womb. I also want to know though, so like how much of that is like the environment of like, is it that everybody has the potential to be a thrifty phenotype, but if you're nourished as a baby that won't manifest, or is it just like genetic and some people are going to be that way, either way. And then we also know that like stress gets passed down through generations. So it makes you wonder like, could you inherit this thrifty phenotype from like stressors of like past generations?

Because I know they've done studies on like people who are like during war starvation times and how it affects their offspring and like we do see effects. So, and I will say though, I've thought about this for quite a while. It's like if you're going so regardless of genetic tendency, if you're going to overeat, I say overeat protein. Like, sorry, if you want to, if you're overeating and you really don't want to gain weight, like adding more protein is going to be the safest cushion against gaining weight. And the way I think about it in my head is kind of like when they looked at the difference between overeating protein versus fat. If you overeat fat, really our body has unlimited capacity to store fat. So you're just going to store that fat mostly. It's like unlikely that your metabolism is going to super hardcore ramp to burn it off like they showed in that first study. Compared to protein, we don't store protein. So when we overeat our protein, it's like, okay, what are our options here? The protein has to be processed. There's a protein has a higher thermo thermogenic effect than fat. So you're already wasting like 30% of your calories just burning the protein protein compared to fat, which has a much lower thermogenic, like it can be almost 0%. Like basically, you can just like store fat easily. So we're losing like 30% of or requiring like 30% of the calories and protein just to burn it. Now you have excess protein, what are you going to do that protein? Well, the body has to convert it into it can convert excess into glucose, it can do that. But that's a energetically costly process as well. So you're losing calories there. That's why they found you know, the increase of energy was in like the like the liver and stuff, like we're actually processing the protein. And then even then, so now you have, say you wait over your protein, and it gets turned into glucose. So glucose does not easily become fat either. So it's like a very like long chain to convert excess protein actually into fat stores, if that makes sense.

Barry Conrad
It does make sense. And it also, you know, I'm happy with this because, you know, for both of us, actually, we eat a lot of protein, which we, it's no secret on this podcast.

And it also has me thinking like, how can I even further, further personalize, you know, like my, my fasting and nutrition, like knowing that, that I'm actually going to be fine. Like I don't think that I, I definitely don't overeat on protein, but knowing that if I do have a surplus of it, it's not going to be harmful. I'm not going to be gaining all this weight. You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. And it's interesting because I know my experience of when I overeat protein, I get like super hot. Like I really feel it.

And to me, that's like a sign of either like the thermogenic effect of protein or my metabolism increasing. Like when I overeat protein, I really feel it. If I were to overeat just fat, I wouldn't necessarily, you know, feel the heat leaving my body. Same.

Barry Conrad
Actually.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it makes me wonder, though, if some people, especially with the genetic one, like, do some people not get as hot after eating as much, if their metabolism is more thrifty with everything, you know?

Barry Conrad
And also i want to help people i want you can test or i guess you probably know like you know if you're getting colder during the fast and things like that how do people know what's up there as well.

Melanie Avalon
I was thinking about that too, because I was like, hmm, what phenotype am I? But the thing is, this kind of gives people agency, I think, for the phenotypes.

Because even if I was a thrifty phenotype, I feel like the way I eat is so protective of metabolism and so protective of creating excess weight gain that I think even if I was thrifty, I feel I still feel like it would be hard to gain weight with the diet I follow, which is like the fasting every day, the one meal a day, and then eating the certain macronutrient choices that I make with high protein and then either high carb low fat or higher fat lower carb.

Barry Conrad
I also thought it's interesting that it shows the 5, 10, and 50% protein. I wonder what made them choose those numbers rather than higher. Yeah, interesting.

Melanie Avalon
I thought that too. Yeah, I thought about that.

I was like, I don't know why they chose the numbers they chose, but because if I think if I were to do studies like this, I would always work like in the extremes. Like I would want to make it really extreme because I think it would show. I think you could maybe learn more about mechanisms. So if I were to set it up, I would do like, I would want to have like somebody on the super minimal protein intake and then just add all fat excess fat and then the high protein I would want to make it like really high protein, you know.

Barry Conrad
I also think with the phenotypes and whatnot, I reckon some people, when they hear this or even if they read about phenotypes, they may say that they're a certain phenotype, but it could even be just down to like lifestyle choices versus the reality. Like again, we're real easy or whatever, it's not necessarily the type, you still can't like out phenotype your lifestyle and your diet, your food choices, you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
I'm so glad you said that because it's kind of like when we talked about that metabolism study where we found out that after age 60 people's metabolism doesn't really decrease that much. I mean, it goes down. It was what it went down by like half a percent or something a year, like something really small. I think people often like to do what you just said and like outsource their health situation to like, oh, it's genetics or oh, I'm, but there's so much agency you can take with your diet and lifestyle.

Yeah. There's, there's a lot of power. Even if you are thrifty phenotype, I think you, there's a lot you can do to, you know, maintain the body composition and the health state that you want to be in your body can't create excess fat from nothing. So it's just like a logical fat. Some people will say they're doing all the right things. Their diet, they're always in a calorie deficit, but they're gaining weight. And it's like, if you're actually gaining weight, you're not in a calorie deficit. It's like not actually possible logically. You might think you are, but your body, and maybe you're putting in less calories than you, you know, that should be a calorie deficit, but your body might be a just adjusting might be, you know, so, so basically, I think there is agency that can be taken with people's health and weight.

Barry Conrad
I love this topic because it's just so true, like just owning your choices, taking responsibility. A lot of people just don't know. They don't know what they're actually really consuming if they really knew what they were eating. Anyway, we could go on forever about this topic.

I know. I know. Awesome. Fine. I love that you brought two studies.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you. Thank you.

Well, it's funny because I found the first one. I was going to do it. Then I found the second one and I was like, Oh, I want to do this one instead. And I was like, wait, but I, I got to talk about both of them because they, they relate so well. They like provide more context.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. And now, also, you're talking about the 60-year-old situation like metabolism. I actually mentioned that to a mate of mine. This is back when we did it, and he was like, no, I don't believe that. He was like, no, when you get older, your metabolism slows down.

But people think it's like a dire slowing down, but it's actually not. It's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon
Tiny, yeah, yeah, it's crazy. Okay, shall we answer some listener questions? Let's do it.

So to start things off, we have a question from Amy and this is from Facebook. And Amy says, if our main goal is fat loss, is it okay to have water with lemon or a flavored La Croix in our fasting window? I know it may increase blood sugar, but is it low enough to not matter for fat loss?

Barry Conrad
Okay. Amy, how's it going? Hope you're having a good day.

Thank you for your question. I've heard this question come up a lot in different forms. It's something a lot of people wonder about, but don't always maybe vocalize. You're in your fasting window. You're trying to stay on track. You're trying to hit your goals. Then there's this voice that's like, wait, does lemon water ruin everything? What about my LaCroix kind of vibe? First off, good that you're thinking about this, the level that you're being intentional about it. When we're talking about fat loss, the big picture here, which we've talked about before, is insulin management. The whole reason fasting is so effective is because it's giving your body a break from those insulin spikes, which opens the doors to tapping into the fat stores. Anything that really significantly spikes the insulin. When food's coming in, when the body recognizes something sweet, food's coming in, during your fasting window, it can really disrupt that process. So lemon water, we're talking about it's a small amount, but yes, it's still going to spike your insulin. For a lot of people, that little splash can help them stay on track, especially if they have a lot of weight to lose and people could say it's better than nothing at all. But with LaCroix, or really any flavored sparkling water, just like lemon, and even zero calorie, it's going to trigger the insulin spike again. So it depends, I guess, what your goals are really at the end of the day. If you find you're getting hungrier after a drink and you start to crave food more, you've probably experimented with this before. Just go the black tea, the black coffee, sparkling water with no additives in there. At the end of the day, test it out, try it. But I mean, if you're asking, I really just do feel that it's better just to do the clean fast.

Melanie, what do you think? Because it's kind of one of those things where people say, I'm not eating, I'll technically still lose weight even if I have flavored water, but I'm just really on the side of the clean fast and just really keeping those insulin spikes to zero. Do you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so I'm on a really similar page. And I'm actually I'm glad the way she phrased this question because she said, I know it may increase blood sugar. And I think that's a really big misconception because we've talked so much about the clean fast. So it's not blood sugar that's actually increasing from these things. It's like Barry was saying it's the insulin response. So you can from the from like from the flavoring, you can have this insulin response that actually honestly, it actually will lower your blood sugar probably. But then that can create a hypoglycemic type response because then your blood sugar goes low, then you get a craving. So that's something that can happen with that goes to show how like these flavor things can, they can make the fasting harder.

So even if you're not bringing in calories, and this actually relates really well to what I was just saying. So it is true. You're not going to create fat from no calories like that just isn't a thing. But and it can still create an insulin response, drop your blood sugar, you get cravings, it would make the fast the fast harder. When insulin gets released, it actually can shut off access to your fat cells for burning. So you actually might stop burning fat. So it's, it's not so much that you're gaining fat from it. As it's messing, it can mess with you hormonally make the fast more difficult and make it harder to burn fat.

And at the same time, some people actually do fine with the water with lemon and even the flavored unsweetened, you know, on non caloric drinks. So if that's you, like you do you, we're just here to say what, you know, what we think in the long run makes things easiest. I mean, I know for me when I started fasting, I was doing, I was doing unsweetened drinks, even things sweetened like stevia and stuff. And I but then I slowly, you know, actually went into the clean fast approach. And I much prefer that it's so much easier.

I have so much more energy burn fat easier. Yeah, Barry said it well. It's like tough love. It's like, probably better not just going straight up with the completely clean fast. But you have to do you

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I mean, it's also one of those things where I have heard when people have asked me about fasting and I, you know, I told them about my protocol and they say, well, I do that. I just have my sweet and drinks, but that's fine. I'm happy with that.

And it's one of those things like you just got to do you like Melanie said, like, that's the way that they want to do it. And, you know, it's like, I've earned that sweet and drink. I'm not eating the rest of the time. It's like, that's totally up to you. But it's exactly what Mel said. It's going to make it easier for you. And who wants to be in pain and agony and like struggling through it, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, exactly. So it's been interesting, like the evolution of the show and being with different co hosts and different perspectives, because like, for example, because you know, Jen is Jen Stevens is very much about the clean fast. So everything is like a very strict like, no, no, no. But then like, for me, I agree, like I agree that it makes it much easier. And still at the same time, I think people got to find what works for them.

But it's probably going to be easier with the straight up, you know, clean fast. All right, shall we go on to our next question?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it. So Maris on Facebook says, why does my resting heart rate dip so low, 55-ish, when I drink a moderate amount of organic alcohol on the weekends? Is this good or bad?

Melanie, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
All right. Thank you so much, Maris, for your question.

Well, first of all, yay that you're drinking organic wine. Hopefully it's dry farm wines, which we love, which Barry and I were just talking about how... Wait, were we talking on the podcast or offline? We're talking offline, right? I think it was on. Was it on? I think. No, no, I think it was off.

Barry Conrad
Okay, it was off. Okay.

Melanie Avalon
I think it was off because I was saying that I would connect you to people, right?

Barry Conrad
Oh yeah, Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, when Barry moves to the US, he can start ordering dry farm wines, which provides access to, I just, I'm so obsessed with them, they make, they don't actually make wine, but they, they go throughout Europe and some other countries, but a majority of it is Europe. Oh, they do go to places like South Africa though, because I've had South African wines from them.

Every time I have one, I, yeah, think of you, I think I've like saved it to have it with you. Oh, one time I accidentally opened it and I was like so upset. I don't know, I don't know if you remember that. I was like saving it.

Barry Conrad
We have to have it again, then.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes, yes, yes. I should go see if I have any right now that are from South Africa. In any case, I'm trying to think if I've had any from Australia. I don't think so because there's not.

Okay, I'm about to ask a very not intelligent sounding question.

Barry Conrad
Cool. Hopefully I can give you a very intelligent sounding answer. Go ahead.

Melanie Avalon
Australia, there's not high altitude, right? Is it all, like when I see Australia, I see like the bush. Is it like all like that, mostly?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, and there definitely are mountains for sure, like definitely, but yeah, there's a lot of flat.

Melanie Avalon
I just, I feel like this might be why, like the wineries there, it's probably a warmer climate usually for the wineries.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, but we have, for example, we have the Barossa Valley, so in South Australia.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, okay. I think I have. Okay. I have had some from them from there then. Okay. Because normally the warmer climate wines, wineries tend to create higher alcohol, higher sugar type wines. And so there's not that many dry from wine ones that are, you know, from that climate, but I have had ones from that Valley. So okay. In any case, but they go throughout and they find the wines and they test wines to make sure that they're organic, free of elk, sorry, free of mold, free of pesticides, low sulfites and low in alcohol and low in sugar. And they're amazing.

So if listeners are interested, they can get a bottle for a penny at dryfromwines.com slash I a podcast back to Marissa's question. So it's not really necessarily a bad or a good thing to alcohol is a depressant. So it can have the effect of lowering your, your heart rate. So if that's the heart rate that you have with the wine, it's not necessarily a bad thing. If it's, you know, just happening during the wine and you're not experiencing negative side effects from that, you might benefit because you would want a broader picture of what is happening with your heart rate, like the majority of the time, not just when you're having the wine. So this would be something where I would highly suggest getting an aura ring because it can monitor your heart rate and your heart rate variability. And it will actually show you your trends and you'll be able to see how your heart is doing all the time with the context of the wine.

But basically, is this good or bad? You can't really answer that unless you know what your heart is doing all the time. But going down from alcohol is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just because alcohol is a depressant. Do you have thoughts, Barry?

Barry Conrad
No, I mean, you put it beautifully like it is a depressant. So I mean, it's going to slow your nervous system down anyway. And your heart rate, it's going to dip temporarily. And it's not necessarily a red flag, but it's not like you're yeah, it's a win.

I think the bigger, the bigger thing is like paying attention.

Melanie Avalon
kind of just is, you know, like you need more data, you need more data.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, exactly. Pay attention how you feel the next day, Maris, as well. And I mean, if your sleep is disrupted, do you wake up feeling foggy or anything like that? That's, you know, maybe pay attention to that.

I mean, your body's always talking and letting you know, but if you have any concerns, genuinely, as we always like to say is like, you know, see a GP and ask, but I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be concerned with that. It's going to dip after drinking. That's my thought.

Melanie Avalon
That's our non-doctor perspective.

Barry Conrad
Yes, not medical advice.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. All right. Shall we go to our next question? Let's do it.

So this question is from Christina and it's also from Facebook. Join us. By the way, my Facebook group is IF Biohackers. So you can just search for Melanie Avalon groups on Facebook and it should come up. And that's a great place to ask questions for the show. So Christina says, so she's struggling with sudden weight gain after years of fasting and maintaining weight. And then this wasn't Facebook. So Christina commented on that and said, yes, this. And then Jennifer commented on this and said, agreed. So a lot of women experiencing sudden weight gain after years of fasting and maintaining weight. Appropriate question, since we just talked about the changes of metabolism as we age. Barry, do you have thoughts?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, definitely. Christina, thanks for sharing. And like Mel said, it's very, very timely as well, this question.

And it's funny seeing those chiming in as well with the big ears. That's funny. And I want to start by saying, I understand. Even though I'm not a female, it can be frustrating. Any kind of stalling or anything like that or weight gain, you've been doing everything quote unquote right for a long time. Fasting, maintaining, feeling good. And then out of nowhere, something's different. The scale can creep up and whatnot. And your clothes maybe fit kind of different. But let's get into it because there could be a few reasons why. And most of them are probably more physiology than failure, I would say.

So first of all, I want to talk about adaption. So our bodies are really smart. So over time, if you're fasting the same way for months or years or same window, same eating, it's possible that your body could become super adaptable to that because it's more efficient at operating within that framework. So that's a good thing. But the downside is maybe one's triggered fat loss or maybe that's the new status quo. But if it stops working, it just could be because your body's adapting. And the second thing I always think about is maybe for women, hormonal shifts. I'm not a woman, but I've done some research. So let's talk about it.

Things like perimenopause, thyroid changes, stress hormone dysregulation, that could maybe cause the body to hold onto weight more easily, even if your habits haven't changed. So that's something to factor in cortisol stress. It can be sneaky. Chronic stress can really lead to water retention, which we know and increased hunger, disrupted sleep, even changes in how your body stores the fat. So if your sleep's been off, Christina, if your life's gotten more stressful for some reason, if you started doing more high intensity training maybe or under eating, that can spike cortisol as well and maybe could be conducive to that weight gain.

And then there's also the muscle mass. So, Christina, if you've been fasting for a long time but haven't paired it with regular resistance training, I'm here to say regular resistance training and high protein, it's so important. And if you haven't done that, it's possible you've lost a bit of lean mass along the way. So muscle is metabolically active tissue. So the less we have, the fewer calories are going to burn at rest. So that's why it's so important.

And it can slowly shift to your maintenance calories lower. And again, even like a small caloric surplus over some time. So I wouldn't panic. Don't panic. Don't panic. Your body's not broken or anything. It just needs a bit of tweaking. Maybe try switching up your fasting window for a few weeks if you usually do 18.6. Maybe try 24. Even something like an alternate day fasting situation a couple of times a week on the flip side of that. Something even more gentle, like a 14.10. Just to see if anything shifts, add in some strength training in there if you're already doing it. Focus on quality protein every meal. And maybe it might be helpful to track your intake for a few days.

Barry Conrad
Not obsessively, but just to see what you might be eating. We talked about this before earlier in the podcast where a lot of people just don't know what they're taking in on the daily. They think it might be one thing. But after tracking them, I go, ah, it's actually way different significantly. So yeah, I'd suggest that.

And at the end of the day, give yourself grades along the way. You've done the work for years for what you're saying. And it's about consistency. It's just this new season right now. Not a failure. Just adjust the inputs, I would say, and let us know how you go. I mean, Melanie, what do you think?

Melanie Avalon
That was so amazing and comprehensive. That was amazing. No, I agree. I agree with literally everything you said.

So I think something that to, to key in on or look at more is the, the word sudden. So, you know, it's one thing if it's like waking after years and then it slowly starts creeping up, but if it's sudden, and I'm really curious what, what that actually looks like on a timeline for somebody, if it's literally like overnight, you're just start gaining weight. I would look at really acute changes that might happen. So like new medications, that's a huge one. If you started a new medication, they can have, they can, you know, really quickly affect your metabolism and make it so that you, what you're doing right now, even though you lost weight and maintain from it, now you're that same diet is going to lead to weight gain. And then like Barry was saying, like acute lifestyle changes, like your sleep, definitely hormones, you could get your thyroid check. So, you know, it could be that because of your lifestyle stressors or whatever it may be that, you know, you're becoming hypothyroid that can make people gain weight. Yeah. So looking at the lifestyle and then like we were talking about, like, like as we age, our metabolism actually doesn't slow down that much. And yet when you couple it with what Barry was mentioning about how we do lose muscle as we age, you know, those going together can make it, you know, make it to a state where your current diet that you've been doing that helps maintain your weight is no longer a weight maintenance diet. Now it's like a weight promoting diet, but there's so much you can do. So, and Barry mentioned really good examples. So might be time to try a new fasting approach. If you're doing a daily intermittent fasting, maybe you want to try like an ADF, ADF type approach where you do alternate day fasting, where you have some days each week where you do a complete fast or like a 500 calorie day. That, that, that would be the alternate day fasting approach, the ADF approach. You could try tightening your fast fasting window, or you could change, you know, what you're eating in your eating window. If you're not one of the nice things about people who, I mean, it depends what you're eating right now, but there's often a lot of really high potential steps that you can change and tweak in your diet to move the needle again. So if you're not eating all whole foods diet, I would definitely try that. If you haven't looked at trying specific macros, so either low carb or low fat, that's something to try via basically I would, basically there's a reason that this is happening suddenly. So there's either addressing it, like addressing the reason if you're, if your diet literally hasn't changed and your fasting literally hasn't changed, then addressing whatever reason that may be, whether it's the lifestyle, the sleep, the hormones, and then also the, you know, it's great because there's like literally so much you can do.

Melanie Avalon
You can address whatever the issue is, and you can also make changes in what you're eating, how you're fasting. So, but yeah, I didn't really appreciate the medication thing until I went on a, went on a medication at one point and I did suddenly gain quite a bit of weight. And I was like, Oh, I was like, this is, I get it now. Like you can literally take a medication and it will just like change your hormones and change your metabolism and you will be eating the same and you will gain weight. It's really, really interesting.

Of course, the flip side can happen. So people take medications and it makes them lose weight. But, uh, yeah. Very, have you ever been in a situation where you suddenly started gaining weight and you hadn't really changed stuff or can you, yeah, has that happened to you?

Barry Conrad
I don't think so. I mean, actually, it's when I started taking Creatine for the first time, actually.

Melanie Avalon
Oh the water weight gain

Barry Conrad
Yeah i was like what the heck is i don't want this is because i had to do something on camera that week is like this is not working for me man because it really like cause you to swell up. So i did find out there that apparently not.

All creating does that did you tell me that no someone tell me that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, well, and I'm not a creatine. Cynthia Thurlow knows a lot more about this, but there's different types.

And like Cynthia's creatine, she would always say that it's not going to make you have that water weight gain effect quite as much.

Barry Conrad
Because I do, I have asked so many guys since then and they all say, oh, that's just part of, that's just normal. That's what comes with it.

I'm like, okay. So you just carry a bit more weight, but it's not necessarily fat. It's just water retention.

Melanie Avalon
I'm glad you brought that up because we were talking a lot about like fat gain. It could very well be like Barry was saying, like a water weight thing.

And that could be from a new supplement, something new in your diet, a lifestyle choice. So the water weight thing is definitely a sodium intake.

Barry Conrad
Because it's really real Mel, and I'm sure that you know from experience as well, you can feel like you've gained a lot of fat, because you look noticeably different, your face is offier, it definitely feels like whoa, I've gained, quote unquote, weight, but it's not fat, there's a difference, you know?

Melanie Avalon
When you think about how much of our body is made of water, it really makes sense that we would see really big fluctuations just based on water. So the average person, for example, is 55 to 60% water. Adult men can be up to 65% water. So that's like a lot of water that can fluctuate around. That's like over half your body is water.

Barry Conrad
It's pretty wild actually to think about it like that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that there were over half water, it was crazy, it was really crazy.

Barry Conrad
I had a visual of like, have you seen the X-Men films? Not really.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Well, I've seen the first two or three. How many are there?

Barry Conrad
There's, I think there's like, yeah, I think there's three main ones with Hugh Jackman.

Melanie Avalon
Is there three and then there's Wolverine and then

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I think, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I loved, I loved X-Men actually.

Barry Conrad
Same. And there's a new one coming up, but I, at the end of the first one, this guy sort of like just turns it to water and like splatters everywhere. So I just had that visual when you were talking about 60%. Yeah, that's wild to think about, but Christine, we don't panic.

I'm sure that you're going to find the reason why Melanie put it so beautifully with those medications and hormonal shifts and whatnot. So we can't wait to hear what the update is.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, let us know. Okay. Shall we have our non, are you ready? Non-degestation, proverbial, but yes, proverbial simulation, breaking up the fast.

Barry Conrad
I'm ready to do all of the above. Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
All right, listeners, friends. So the purpose of this part of the show is because we talk all the time about the benefits of fasting and so much of the benefits of fasting come from the eating period. So this is where we showcase some restaurants that either we've been to or we'd like to try. We talk about how we would order at the restaurants so you can learn how to navigate restaurants, especially if you like to make modifications like me, and we celebrate food because we love food.

So shall we jump in? Let's do it. So Barry, what restaurant do you have for us today?

Barry Conrad
I'm actually really excited about this, well, I am every week, but this week in particular because this restaurant is in the city I am currently in.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. Have you been yet?

Barry Conrad
I haven't. It's called Gimlet, and it's in Melbourne, Australia, listeners. I sent you the link there, Mel. Basically, this spot was housed in the 20s, 1920s. It's got an art deco building, chandeliers, leather boots, marble bars. So, Melanie, I reckon you'd like it.

Think, like, New York supper club vibes meets Euro Bistro, total old-school glam vibes. It's open till 1am of the weekend, which, compared to Sydney, let me just set the scene for you, because Sydney, a lot of things close so early, Mel. I don't know what it's like in Atlanta, but it's too early. Yeah, very early, actually.

Melanie Avalon
How early? Like when restaurants typically close? Like nine.

Barry Conrad
Like, 9.30, like, that's pretty early, like a lot of restaurants closed.

Melanie Avalon
around the weekends.

Barry Conrad
not much later because the kitchens usually just close their time. It's just I don't know why.

1am here, their wine list is award-winning. One of the other reasons I chose this, one of the best in the country. It's got a mix of Aussie and international bottles, and it's run by Andrew McConnell, one of Melbourne's top chefs. So, foods like euro inspired with the modern Aussie twist. Let's get into this menu. Let's do it. Nice. Okay, so you want to go to the Ellicott.

Melanie Avalon
menu. Oh, because the supper menu is a set price menu?

Barry Conrad
There's like no, there's not much on there.

Melanie Avalon
Oh wait, no, it's not a set price. Never mind. It's just okay. Just like a random menu. Are there things though on the upper menu that are not on the all the cart menu?

Barry Conrad
I haven't actually checked yet.

Melanie Avalon
Wait, oh my goodness, my mind is being blown. Autumn menu. Is it fall there?

Barry Conrad
It's a yeah the seasons thing again autumn yeah it is yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Oh man, my favorite season.

Barry Conrad
You like it, you like being cold.

Melanie Avalon
I love the fall. Yeah, it's such a beautiful season. You're going to be living in New York in the fall.

Barry Conrad
And now, apparently the weather right now is super nice. Well, we're in the future when this podcast comes out, but by the time I go, it's meant to be really nice weather.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so I'm looking at the autumn menu in Australia. Appetizer. Hey,

Barry Conrad
I know what you're thinking.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, but okay, they're using the word appetizer, but then they're using entree as an appetizer as well. Okay.

Barry Conrad
And in the main course, yes, it's kind of different. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
and then from the grill. Okay, appetizers. So, oh, look what they have.

Barry Conrad
what's looking good to you from the appetizer slash entree.

Melanie Avalon
They have that beluga caviar from two weeks ago that was at the Michelin restaurant in Disney World at the Four Seasons. Okay, this looks really good.

So for the appetizer, while they have oysters, I never get scallops as my entree at restaurants. I think we've talked about that because it would never be enough, but I will get it as like an appetizer. So I'm torn between the baked scallop and hollandaise and very expensive, but the Giaveri beluga caviar. I guess it depends if I find out that I really like caviar.

Barry Conrad
Okay, what if they're like, you can have whatever you want. You don't have to pay for it. So would you get both of those? Would you just get one of those?

Melanie Avalon
I would get both, yeah. I would get scallop and caviar. How about you? I bet I can guess.

Barry Conrad
Yes, because I'll get a few things.

Melanie Avalon
I think you're gonna want the country sourdough. How did you know? Because I know you so well. And you want oysters. Uh-huh. How many more things do you want from that after that?

Barry Conrad
Well, I saw something else that I like and I don't often see it on menus and I like to make it as well.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, okay.

Barry Conrad
maybe i haven't told you this that i like to it's a really it's a really good snack.

Melanie Avalon
Well i know i know i have it between two and i know it's one of those i feel very confident that it's one of those i just don't know which one it involves like a bread type situation in it right.

Barry Conrad
I don't know, is that enough?

Melanie Avalon
It does. I know it does.

I know it's either the, it's either the anchovy toast or the the no-go frito. It's the, it's the Falma. The anchovy toast. Yeah. That's so funny. I was thinking like avocado toast in my head, but this is anchovy.

Barry Conrad
No, I love a good bread on the table. It's just my thing at a restaurant because I don't like, I pretty much 95% don't buy bread to have. So at a restaurant, I like a good warm, fresh, like hot, like sourdough on the side there.

The anchovy toast is very specific. It's got like, um, pieces of anchovy over like toasted bread. Oh, it's so good. And then I'm also going to get the baked scallop hollandaise. And you know what? I'm going to do the beluga caviar. We'll just need, we need extra of that because it's going to be good. I reckon it'll be really good.

Melanie Avalon
I just had a major epiphany for you, Barry. It's kind of, it's kind of grim. What?

Barry Conrad
Am I NPC again?

Melanie Avalon
No, MPC is not grim. MPC is just because you just mentioned how you're not always like a big bread person, but you do like having it.

You know there's this thing that happens very commonly where when people come to the US, they eat like the bread and stuff like they were eating and they actually start not feeling well from it. This is like the thing. You know this, right?

Barry Conrad
If you didn't know that, because, no, is it like a recent thing or no?

Melanie Avalon
No, no, this is such a thing. So like you will hear all the time and I just this is my mind is kind of being blown because I realize it's probably more like, you know, us people who realize this, but people will say here all the time, like that they can eat bread here, but then they go to Europe and they feel fine.

And they come back and it's like, and I and then on the flip side, I will hear from people in Europe, or like other countries, when they come to the US, they have the bread and they feel like horrible. It's like we are so saturated and glyphosate here that I really think that's what it is. I'm just saying when you come here and you eat all the bread like you've been eating or you eat like the bread you would have been eating, you might find that you feel differently. I'm just saying.

Barry Conrad
Well, I have had bread there before, I haven't felt necessarily bad, you know, maybe more full, but not like bad, bad. So maybe, I mean, I have a pretty robust stomach, I'm South African and we.

Melanie Avalon
You are kind of like, well, you're an NPC, so ignore me. Barry is a non-player character. He's not real.

Barry Conrad
I thought you were going to say when you come to the States and you start eating all the bread, you're going to be like going to gain a whole little weight or something. I thought you were going to say something like that.

Melanie Avalon
No, no, no. I'm saying like, I think you're going to like have a different, you might have a little, and the food in general here isn't as like healthy.

Like there's more additives and more, you might just have a slightly different, or you might be fine. I'm just saying it's kind of, it kind of goes back to the question earlier from Christina with like the sudden waking. I'm just saying if you come here and you suddenly experience a different sort of experience in your body with food, it's not you, it's America. Welcome.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I mean, I definitely know that the food's not generally, hey, I'm not Americans who are listening. I'm not coming for you.

I just know generally the produce is different to Australia and New Zealand, and that's all I'm going to say. But yeah, I definitely know what you're saying, Melanie, without saying it. I don't want the listeners coming for me.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, they won't come for you. I feel like we're all on the same team here.

It's kind of nice because we feel less... Well, I don't want to say it empowers victimhood, but they're going to appreciate that you understand that the cards are stacked against us here in the US with the food situation.

Barry Conrad
I'm going to be pretty simple. Well, pretty simply during the week, as you do as well, like, you know, my daily is going to be pretty quote unquote plain.

But when I go out, I'm just like, you know me, I'll just go for it. But I'm not going to go to a bad place, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. So, okay.

So we got through the appetizers. Let me go back to the menu. Okay, so now we are at the entree, which translation does not mean entree. It means, what does it mean? It means like second appetizer.

Barry Conrad
So basically, listeners, if you haven't pulled it up already, the entree, the main cause, and from the grill, I feel like I'm going to lump that into one main's deal for us. And I think that's going to be, what do you reckon, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
No, the entree is still it's an entree is still a pre main course.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I reckon some people still have that as like people with a small appetite might have that as their main thing, but not for me.

Melanie Avalon
I don't speak this language, okay, so you want anything from the entree section or you're lumping it all together so like okay so now we pick like a so there's not another course we're just we're just jumping to like

Barry Conrad
No, no, no, no, let's do the entree. For the entree for me, I love the look of the raw tuna. That sounds fresh, easy. It's a raw tuna, grapefruit, rock, samphire, and smoked creme fraiche. I don't know if I'm saying that right, but it sounds delicious.

Melanie Avalon
Can I just have a taste of that? You can. Okay. That's what I want because tuna, I get nervous with the mercury, but I will have like a taste I, I love tuna. So.

Barry Conrad
What about you? Do you like the look of any of those entrees?

Melanie Avalon
I think I'm just going to have a taste of yours. Okay. We got a lot of appetizers that I really like, so I think we're good there.

Barry Conrad
And then main course.

Melanie Avalon
and from the grill. Yeah, these kind of go together. Okay, I think I want

Barry Conrad
Okay, what's catching your eye?

Melanie Avalon
I think I will go with the Raven's Creek pork cutlet with on-dive and blood plumb, everything on the side prepared medium. And then I want some sort of steak, as Barry would say, situation.

So I think I'm going to go with the, you know what, I know it's fattier. I was reading all about Wagyu last night, and I know it's fattier, but then I was contemplating how it's actually really high in mono-insaturated fat. And I was like, you know what, maybe it doesn't feel quite as heavy since it's not as high in saturated fat. So I think I might get the Blackmore 9-plus Wagyu sirloin, 200 grams with house mustard and lemon, all of that on the side. I will have some of that mustard. Mustard is like the one sauce I actually will have a little bit of. I love mustard.

And I'll have that rare. And I might not even, since it's Wagyu and fattier, I might not ask for it blue. I might just ask for rare. Interesting.

Barry Conrad
Because I really just I really think you would think the steak here is quite different to over there.

Melanie Avalon
Well, well, here's the thing. Well, so the majority of the steak I eat, I think actually is Australian. Really? Yeah, because I order from ButcherBox and they work with a lot of Australian farms.

Barry Conrad
I can't wait to have ButcherBox as well. ButcherBox, my newie, all of it, because I keep hearing about all of these online.

Melanie Avalon
Maui Nui. You're gonna love Maui Nui. It's gonna be your jam.

You're gonna like, yeah, we should like, we should like propose to them some sort of, I know they already sponsor the show, but we should like, be like, listen, we'll like, do stuff for you. Like, create content. Yeah. MauiNuiVenison.com slash I have podcasts for listeners. It's the best, super lean red meat, really high in nutrition. And you are helping to save the ecosystem in Hawaii because there is a overpopulation problem with the invasive species of the axis deer.

And they harvest or they hunt them in a very sustainable and stress free way. They're amazing. Okay, so sorry, I keep rambling. What what are you gonna have?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to get the Blackmore 9 Plus Wagyu Sirloin 200g with house mustard and lemon medium rare and I'm also going to get the half southern rock lobster baked in saffron rice and sauce royal. That sounds really good!

Melanie Avalon
That sounds really good. That does sound good. It's got saffron. Oh my gosh.

Barry Conrad
And then also there's some veggies and things over there, do you like any of those?

Melanie Avalon
interesting i don't even know what this is what i don't know what. Oh, Pontarell, type of chickpea, Pontarell.

Barry Conrad
So, basically, it's like a variety of chicories, specifically a type of ball to chicory, okay, so it's like a green. It's like greens. Never heard of it before.

Melanie Avalon
So I'm good. I don't... I'm good. How about you?

Barry Conrad
I'm gonna get the kip kip floor potatoes smoked paprika. Oh my gosh, that sounds so good. Definitely doing that

Melanie Avalon
the side. Are you going to get french fries before you leave Australia and come to the U.S. and french fries like wreck you, they're not going to wreck you, you're like amazing.

Barry Conrad
fries? I don't know.

Maybe for the table, but I don't, because you won't have them, so I don't want to just smash those. I probably get the potatoes, and then I'll get, if I get another side, it'll probably be the squash.

That sounds nice. And then, there is a cheese and dessert situation here. Oh, wow. Does any of that look good to you, Mill?

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. Okay.

So true story. So yesterday, was it yesterday or two days ago? Two days ago. Two days ago, I was at my parents' house and my sister had, they had, they had all these cheeses. Cheese to me is just the most divine addictive thing ever. I can't eat, I cannot have a bite of it because I will eat. It's literally like a drug to me, but it smells so good. So if you get cheese, I will like, I will appreciate vicariously through you. Oh, cheese. I just respond to those case of morphine's like, it's not good.

Barry Conrad
I mean, I definitely agree. Like, you know, it's when I'm at like a party or anywhere where there's cheese, I'm just constantly at the table.

Actually, Mel, did you see, speaking of cheese, did you see, I posted on my story like this charcuterie. Oh, I've got to send that to you. At the Beetlejuice after party, there was this like giant, entire table, massive giant, like you would... Of charcuterie and cheese? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
What is your favorite cheese?

Barry Conrad
I do like blue cheese, I like goat's cheese, blue cheese. No, I don't know if we have. What's yours?

Melanie Avalon
Manchego

Barry Conrad
That's pretty good.

Melanie Avalon
So good and the reason, like I said, the reason it's so addictive for some people is because it literally has case of morpions in it, which are like morphine, the purpose is to bond the baby to the mother. Literally, the cheese was made to make you like, light up. So if you feel you can't resist cheese, it's not your fault.

Barry Conrad
What if you bought a small block of it and you couldn't have any more? Would you just have that block or you just don't?

Melanie Avalon
No, because the because the experience of having that cheese, and then not having that cheese, like that, it's that experience after the cheese that just feels so like that. We're talking earlier about the fasting and you know how if you're having flavor things during the fast, it can create like cravings and like a wanting feeling compared to it just being easy.

That's how I am with cheese. Like, I don't want to be in that state of existence. It's not worth it. So I'd rather just like think about it in my head.

Barry Conrad
Hmm, well, I'll have the cheese. Well, I'll definitely get the cheese service.

Melanie Avalon
Please do and I will smell it and appreciate it through you.

Barry Conrad
And then also chocolate fill mill fuel with blackberries and butterscotch anything chocolate. Basically, that's my jam Have to go with that

Melanie Avalon
Perfect. And I will get I'm probably going to have a round two of whatever appetizer I liked the most.

You know, I'm really intrigued by the one of the entrees, the hunter salad, it has duck on it. So like, do they have duck as an option? Like by itself? I might ask if I can get I'll be like from the hunter salad for dessert. Can I just get the hunter salad with only the duck? Wait, wait, let me see it. Okay, can I get the hunter salad with no salad, no quince, no wallet, no wall, sorry, walnut and no radicchio? Yeah, I'm sure they could do that. Okay, that's my dessert. The duck from the salad.

Barry Conrad
That sounds really, and then Mel, if you go to menu again and you click on cocktail, that's not just a cocktail menu. If you scroll all the way to the bottom, you'll see the award-winning Mindless.

I'm going to see if this actually is your jam.

Melanie Avalon
So cocktail, OK, what are you going to get?

Barry Conrad
Oh, wow. Okay. So I am looking now, definitely have to get one of their, well, they do say here that their cocktail is, where is it? Having a look here. Their signature Gimli cocktail is apparently like next level. So I'm going to, because it's, again, trying a new place, I'm going to do that for sure.

And then a second cocktail I'm going to get would be, let's go. Here we go. Uh, having a look now. I'm going to do a Tommy's margarita. Let's see if they can make that spicy for me because it's, I can't see that there. And then I'm going to go down to the wines and scrolling into the wines. It's quite extensive list here. Sparkling champagne, wine, but the glass. Okay. Let's go. I'm trying to find a good, I'm trying to find a pinot grigio situation here.

Melanie Avalon
So basically this, wait, did you find a wine for you?

Barry Conrad
You know what I'm actually going to get as something, a bit of a plot twist here. I actually really like skin contact as well.

So there's also, there's a Ben Haines, Amber skin contact, Pinot Grigio slash Savian Blanc. So I'm going to go with that because that sounds quite nice and South Australia.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, have we talked about Sauvignon Blanc before? Have we talked about this? Do you know that there is really only one white varietal of wine that I don't like?

Barry Conrad
C'est vez blanc!

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.

Barry Conrad
Same actually. That's my least. It's down the bottom of the food chain for me.

Melanie Avalon
You just ordered it.

Barry Conrad
Well i think is it's a slash it's a skin contact pinot grigio slash having a block and i like i like skin contact guy actually and i actually tried that for the first time in new york. A couple years ago skin contact.

Melanie Avalon
Well, what's funny about that is, so for red wines, all red wines are skin contact. So like, it's like a white that's skin contact.

Barry Conrad
It's like, it looks kind of orangey. It's almost like orange. Yeah. So I'm gonna do that. That sounds good.

Melanie Avalon
Well, there's just skin contact. Oh, it's oh, it's a blend of peanut. Okay, that's what you got. It's a blend with peanut grease. Okay, very cool.

For me, I would have to look up. So if listeners are curious how I handle wine lists, I basically, I zone in on the region, the varietal. And then I look and see if it's organic. So there's a few different ones I would look up and see if they're organic. And then I would look up their alcohol content. But basically, the wines in the running would be Laurent, Chard, Chard, Chardigny, Bourgogne, Pinot Noir from Burgundy, the, the Lecorte to Lescon, Chiantes, San Giovanni, the Valentin Cab Franc from Goulburn Valley, Victoria, and the Oh, two more. Okay, oh, I love gamais. So they have a Daniel Boulon-Couvet. Melanie, what? Okay, I think I have to get that the coat to coat to Brulig. You know what, I might just have to get that and like, hope it's organic. But it's, it's my favorite. Well, I love France. It's bougoulet. Gamais is one of my favorites. And the name Melanie is in the title. So I think I'm like putting out putting out vibes that it's organic, because that's what I'm feeling.

Barry Conrad
So good. It sounds good.

Melanie Avalon
I never see Melanie in the name of a wine.

Barry Conrad
How good is that? I wonder if it's any good. It must be good, I reckon. I hope so.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, this looks epic, and so are you gonna go, you think?

Barry Conrad
Well, you know what? There's every chance that I could go because I mean, I've heard all about Gimlet. And so when I found this while I was looking for restaurants, I'm like, maybe I should check this place out.

Melanie Avalon
And how long are you going to be there again?

Barry Conrad
Well, if not, if not this time, because I'm here just for three weeks this time, when I come back for Destiny properly, like the season, two and a half, three months, then I'll definitely get to go then.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, can you get the Melanie wine, please?

Barry Conrad
And try it, and try it, yeah, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, no, you don't have to, but if you want to.

Barry Conrad
I'm going to make a note of it right now actually because I'm going to forget, so I'm literally writing it down when you go to Gimlet.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, excellent find. This was so fun. I hope listeners enjoyed our experience as well.

So okay, so the show notes for today's episode will be at ifodcast.com slash episode 435. They will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And you can follow us on Instagram. I'm Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad. And I think that's all the things. Anything can be very before we go.

Barry Conrad
No, we hope you enjoyed this week's episode everyone and thank you so much. We'll talk to you next time.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, so fun. I will talk to you next week.

Barry Conrad
Sounds good, bye.

Melanie Avalon
Bye! Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

See you next week!

Aug 12

Episode 434 – Protein Politics, Fasting To Reduce Blood Pressure, Is Protein Just For Men, The Simulation Hypothesis, Liver King, Magnesium, Seed, And Serrapeptase Timing, And More!

⁠The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #278 - Rizwan Virk⁠

Welcome to Episode 434 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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Featured Restaurant: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Space 220 Restaurant⁠

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The Effect of Intermittent Fasting Combined with Ad Libitum Days on Adults’ Elevated Blood Pressure: A Systematic Review of Human Studies

⁠⁠If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 434 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 434 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad, who is now in a new location yet again. Congratulations.

Barry Conrad
Hey, everyone. Hey, Mel. And she's not right. You're not wrong, Mel.

It's like I'm in... Where am I now? I'm in Melbourne, Australia. So, listen, this is out there. It's kind of like distance was like an hour, 10 minutes sort of from Sydney flight. So, it's not too far, but it looks completely different. I'm looking over the city right now on the 13th floor of this apartment building. Totally different vibe to where I was before. And it's the sort of the next stop, the in-between spot before I go to New York, which is crazy.

Melanie Avalon
New York. Yeah, that is that is wild. Do you like so for like living? Like, would you want to live in the city indefinitely? Do you like the country? Like, what's your living vibe?

Barry Conrad
I've always kind of said, I'm kind of half cabin slash ocean half city, you know, like I'd need like, if there's an opportunity for me to get to the ocean or, you know, nature, then I can stay in the city. But if it's just like exclusively kind of escape, either extreme, then I'm not really happy with that.

So I'm excited for a new change because I haven't lived in the city before ever. You know, so this is going to be really different, like literally change the scenery, change of country. So it's all happening.

Melanie Avalon
Wow. Yeah, I think I'm the same. I love the city. I wouldn't want to live there indefinitely, though.

I would feel like I would need like an out. And I also love like the country, but I definitely don't want to live forever in the country. Yeah, yeah, that'd be nice to have like multiple places.

Barry Conrad
I 100% agree. I kind of also think now with you, with your very packed social schedule and your Avalon walk down the aisle at different shows and stuff, like it's not that many shows out in the country.

So if you're stuck in a country, we're going to go to like the local, the local, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon
First of all, it's not super packed. It's once a week. You're the king. You're the king of social packedness. I feel like you're like just always doing something sparkly.

Barry Conrad
Actually, he's talking about Sparkly this past weekend. I went to Beetlejuice, the Australian premier of the musical Beetlejuice.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, which I saw your your suit and you nailed it. It like was in theme. Did I comment? If I didn't comment, I'm commenting now like in real in real time.

Barry Conrad
It's the first time that I actually wore shade, like I actually wore sunglasses inside A because I always used to give people like, Oh, that's so lame that people do that. But I kind of thought my stylist was like, this is the moment to do it because it's like in theme.

It's like a situation you're on the red carpet and then I took it off, I took them off, you know, afterwards, but it's, I loved it. So different.

Melanie Avalon
You looked amazing. Listeners, go look at this picture.

Although it's going to be way in the past now when this comes out. But yeah, your suit was like Beetlejuice. Did you get that designed for the premiere?

Barry Conrad
It was specifically like it was made to made for my shape because I work with Theodore, which is the suit company and they, yeah, everything that I wear from there is, it just fits like a glove.

Melanie, I'm sending you something right now. Look at this on, uh, on what, uh, that's oops, that's somebody else. You know what you said, you know.

Melanie Avalon
when you send it to the wrong person? Oh, you sent it to the wrong person.

Barry Conrad
I'm sending it to, I sent it to Danny. Sorry, Danny.

Melanie Avalon
Can you unsand on WhatsApp?

Barry Conrad
You can, but it has to be pretty quick. I'm sending it to you now on WhatsApp one, two, three, and have a look at that. The photographer just sent me this.

Melanie Avalon
Wait, did you send it to my sister by accident?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I don't know, I answered it.

Melanie Avalon
I have to tell you something about that, but okay, I'm looking at this picture.

Barry Conrad
But look at what that this is like one of the papers and stuff.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my gosh, really? Wait, let me, okay. The evening's guest list sparkled. Markled. Oh my goodness.

And then we have a picture of Barry, Barry Conrad, the multi-faceted actor and singer whose talents have illuminated both stage and screen, brought his signature charisma to the proceedings. Nice. And they put your picture. That's, this is the, this is the, what times? The Turek, the Turek. Is that like a newspaper or a news outlet?

Barry Conrad
It's really funny because sometimes, especially when we're doing the restaurant segment or whatnot, you try to say the word sometimes and then you wait for me to say it.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, yeah. So I don't sound stupid.

Oh, my goodness. Yes, no, I told Danielle I was gonna share this with you on the air. We decided, we thought about it. We think you might be an NPC. Do you know what this is?

Barry Conrad
No, but I'm curious. What is it? What's an NPC?

Melanie Avalon
It's a non-player character. So let me explain. In video games, okay, you know, you know, in video games, there's like all the characters that are not actually being played by other players, like in multiplayer video games. So they're called NPCs, like that's the phrase.

The term has kind of been evolved to mean, and people use it like different ways, but like in simulation hypothesis, there's the idea that maybe people are NPCs. The reason we think you're a non-player character, basically, we think maybe you're not a real human because you're like because you're like so talented, so beautiful, so nice, so kind. So we're like, you know what, maybe he's an NPC, maybe he's not real.

Barry Conrad
So this whole time you're just talking to an NPC and you know, I'm a real person.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, you're like AI basically.

Barry Conrad
That's really funny.

Melanie Avalon
But the thing is, you know, we wouldn't know because if there are NPCs, well, so, yeah, we nominate you. Are you an NPC?

Barry Conrad
I'm not an NPC but I also melt

Melanie Avalon
You deny?

Barry Conrad
You're going to find out pretty soon.

Melanie Avalon
How am I gonna find out? No, I feel like I'm less likely to find out because the AI is just gonna get more evolved.

Barry Conrad
So NPCs, they can still look, act, feel like a human, but they're not really, is that what you're saying?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.

Barry Conrad
Mm-hmm Danny. I don't know like how did this year? How did this even come up?

Melanie Avalon
How did this come up? I was over at my parents' town home, picking out Christmas decorations. Long story. We were going through all the stuff from growing up.

Barry Conrad
Christmas?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, my mom was like going through all her Christmas stuff and getting rid of it. So we were like claiming what we wanted. So I had to go over there to like go through all the Christmas stuff, which was quite fun.

How did it come up? My mom was saying something about I think I was saying I was recording with you today. My mom was saying something. What does she say? Oh, she commented on how she loves listening to your voice, like how you're great for the podcast and you're so great to listen to.

And then that just spiraled from there. Because then me and Danielle were like, I know. Yeah, his voice, his talent, he's kind, all the things. Maybe he's an NPC. And then that, yeah.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny because I could just see like, you know, Danny's voice and like, I don't know, I could just hear her saying it just makes me laugh.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, we like analyze the situation. And then I was like, I'm going to tell him this on the podcast tomorrow. So here we are.

Barry Conrad
Listeners, do you think I'm an NPC?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, we should do a poll.

Barry Conrad
What if you're an NPC?

Melanie Avalon
I know, right?

Barry Conrad
you are. I feel like you definitely would be more than I would be.

Melanie Avalon
I'm not. If there is, okay, if I had to put my money on one person being an NPC, I think, oh my gosh, how did I forget his name? Brian Johnson. He seems like an NPC.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I agree. I think so too. Yeah. But he has like the look, you know?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, yeah. And like the longevity stuff. And then if he's an NPC, he actually could live forever, you know?

Barry Conrad
We talked about this as well i don't i don't want to look for you kind of what did you say like you might want to.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, no, I do. I do. I literally thought everybody did. But apparently, nobody does except for me and a few other and Brian Johnson and a few other people.

I think even Dave Asprey like caps it at 180 or something. Yeah.

Barry Conrad
If you could look the same and have the same energy like that's one thing but if you like getting super.

You know deficient and super elderly and you can't move and stuff what would you live you know forever.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I don't I guess I I separate that out. So I'm just assuming in this live forever situation that I'm functional that I'm not I don't want to Yeah, because if you live forever, then that means the whole aging thing gets Twisted around you know because you couldn't just age forever.

So maybe you just plateau so if I could plateau at like this state That i'm in right now

Barry Conrad
Have you seen the Blake Lardley film, you know which one I'm talking about?

Melanie Avalon
Oh yeah, yeah, Age of Adeline.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I feel like you'd love that movie.

Melanie Avalon
I've watched that multiple times. I have a major crush on Flake Lively, so I will watch anything she's in.

Barry Conrad
She's a babe.

Melanie Avalon
I literally will go, like, I don't go to the movie theaters, but if Blake Lively's isn't a movie, I'm like, I'm there. I will go by myself and watch it.

Barry Conrad
Still to watch her. That's funny

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that's why I loved watching the one It Ends With Us.

Barry Conrad
I haven't seen that, but there's a whole lot of drama around that, right?

Melanie Avalon
there's a lot of drama around it. Yeah, there's a lot of drama.

And so Blake Lively is in it. And then the main guy is beautiful too. So it was just like watching two beautiful people for, you know, an hour and a half. You like that? Yep. That's when I went by myself.

Barry Conrad
Maybe the NPC's, Blake Lively, are you an NPC?

Melanie Avalon
No, no, no. Sometimes though, when I walk, and I promise listeners we'll stop talking about this, but sometimes when I walk through the world and you see, you know, people like on the sidewalk, it's like, hmm, maybe these people are NPCs.

You know, maybe if we're in a video game, then yeah.

Barry Conrad
There are, you know, I'm surrounded by a lot of very good looking, beautiful people in what I do, but that sometimes when someone makes you double take, it's like, whoa, like someone shouldn't look that good. Yeah, it's pretty crazy.

Melanie Avalon
And you're saying like those type of people seem like they might be NPCs.

Barry Conrad
Well, Melanie, no, I don't normally think that. But now that you say that you do that, maybe I should go, maybe they're not real.

Maybe they're AI, maybe they're like trial runs, you know, trial models.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, the people I'm like suspicious like pink might be NPCs are the people who will the beautiful people that I know, like people like you who are also like, really kind and talented, like just like all the things. So it's like little suspicious.

And then the people like out in the world that not necessarily super attractive or anything, but just like the people on the street, like in cars and like I said, like on sidewalks, it's like, if this is a video game simulation, people out there might not be, they might just be NPCs. And then people like, yeah, Brian Johnson. So it may be Elon Musk, I don't know.

Barry Conrad
So now my mind's actually open and kind of get to this whole situation because of you.

Melanie Avalon
Well, listeners, this conversation is interesting to you. Check out my interview with Riz Burke, who wrote the simulation hypothesis. He's one of the main people who popularized that theory. He was on Joe Rogan Ford, actually. And it will blow your mind.

It will have you convinced that maybe we do live in a simulation. I don't know. I actually don't know. I don't know if I think we do, but do you think we do?

Barry Conrad
Do you know what I've heard so much of this, like, especially the past couple of years, the simulation thing, I don't know who knows, you know, but I am curious what, tell me the episode again that we should listen to. I want to listen to it.

Melanie Avalon
So it's episode 278 of the Melanie Avalon Biohacking podcast. It's with Riz Firk. He wrote the simulation hypothesis. He was so great.

I heard his interview on Rogan, and I was like, I must interview this man. And I just cold reached out to him. And he was down, and he came on. And he's an MIT computer scientist. And yeah, it's really interesting.

Barry Conrad
Is it a compelling argument for the simulation theory? What do you think?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you read the book. Yeah.

And if you listen to the interview, it's too much to go into detail now, but it makes sense. Basically, everything he says makes sense. So it wouldn't surprise me.

Barry Conrad
I'm going to check it out, and that would also, that means that could be an NPC as well.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, that's true. Like an NPC who's like telling us.

Barry Conrad
He's warning us, he's telling us. Hilarious. Okay, I'll check it out.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well that was all the lovely tangents and rabbit holes. Shall we jump into stuff?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it. What would you like to get into first?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so we can either do the study that you have or the article. What do you want to do first?

Barry Conrad
Let's jump on into that article. I feel like we're on this trajectory right now.

Melanie Avalon
Perfect. Okay. So Barry found this really interesting article in Vanity Fair, although by the time this comes out it will be an old article. Regardless, it is called Why Are Americans So Obsessed With Protein?

Blame. Do people call it, do they say like MAGA or do they just say Make America Great Again? Do people say MAGA? I know people say MAHA. Make America Healthy Again. Do they say MAHA? Is that a thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah, we do say MAHA. Yeah, because like the subline, the subtitle, From the Liver King to the Podcast Bros to RFK Junior's MAHA, there it is, constituents, America's infatuation with protein has reached a fever pitch and it's undeniably gendered. Okay, I will say a few things here. One, we don't normally get very political on this show, so this is not meant to be like a super political thing. We just can't not talk about this. And then two, yeah, so do people say MAGA? Because all I hear is MAHA and I hear Make America Great Again, but I don't hear people say MAGA.

Barry Conrad
I feel like I actually have heard people say MAGA, especially over the last year and a half or so. I have heard that. Yeah, I've never heard MAHA, but I've heard MAGA.

Melanie Avalon
So basically, and you can tell me if you agree with my summary of this article, but basically what they're saying, proposing, is that there's this high protein infatuation thing happening in society, and it's mostly from this masculine maga, making America great again. It's like that it's all political, this focus on protein, and that it's actually doing a disservice, that it's supporting empowering potentially problematic gender stereotypes and things like that. Isn't that basically the takeaway of this article?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, well, when I first saw this listeners, I actually like responded. I put this on my story and I said, along with a photo of it, I was like, you know, considering the current RDA is 0.8 grams of protein per kg of body weight. And that's just to prevent muscle deficiency, meaning most people already fall short daily.

And after age 30, we lose muscle at a rate of 3.8% per decade. I reckon there are worse things to be quote unquote obsessed with then protein wink, because I thought there was it was sort of like a clickbaity title. But when I got into it, I was like, I think the main thing that I'm getting is that it's kind of become theatrical, and sort of like a symbol of masculinity. And like, you know, you get these like shirtless guys screaming into cameras and like, shotgunning raw eggs, you know, eating raw liver, you know, stuff like that alpha male vibes. So it stops being about nutrition and starts being about theater and attention.

And it's not here's why protein matters. It's more like watch me dominate the day. Watch me dominate the day about deadlifting bison while yelling about soy like, you know, just really, you know, and what happens is the science gets drowned out because, you know, it's not Yeah, it shouldn't be politic politicized like this.

Melanie Avalon
And what's so interesting is so I that I okay, I think that what bothered me I guess about the article is that it's not an or to me, it's not an or situation. It's not like either protein is this masculine hyper thing that's really like you said, the like theatrical and all of this stuff or or protein really helps us to me, it's like, I think it's and like, I think there's this really big importance in protein. I'm so happy people are more aware of it now.

And there is the potential for it to, you know, become this stereotype thing. And those can both exist. But then when you read the article, the article is kind of making the case that it's like the or situation. It's like, because of the current politics and government and everything, this, like all this focus on protein is a negative. And it's all like supported by this agenda. And it's like, okay, maybe maybe it's good that we have a growing awareness on protein. And maybe sometimes it also creates these stereotypes at the same time. You know, like that all can exist at the same time, rather than rather than saying like, this big protein message is supporting certain political stances.

Barry Conrad
I just don't get that. I mean, I know that maybe because some of these figures, because I aware that the writer thinks or believes them to be a support of a certain person in politics, maybe then she's acquainting that with like, MAGA or politics, but I mean, I love that you brought up the IDA to begin with because that gives readers, I bet a lot of readers wouldn't even know that.

So that's, yeah, we love that people know about protein, but it's wild that, I don't know, we're at a point now where like, how much chicken you eat is political? How's that political? It's not right wing or wolf or anything. It's just, I'm confused by, I guess I'm interested in what inspired her to write this.

Melanie Avalon
Well, it's interesting. Yeah, it's okay. So like, because I took out some notes from it. So like, when she mentions the RDA, that's a good example. Because she mentions it to kind of make it seem like this is a problem, this focus on protein.

Because she says the RDA for protein is point 36 grams per pound of body weight. But some popular online health experts, like Peter Attia, who advises David protein and has invested in the Did you read this part? And as invested in the protein for deer meat company Maui Nui Venison, who we love on the show, recommends for greater levels. He says that his practice aims for one gram per pound of body weight. Andrew Huberman has called this a good starting point. Though, okay, I can't even though one of his own supplements of choice and a financial incentive is AG one, which contains a measly two grams of protein per serving. Okay, this paragraph, there's so much with this paragraph, AG one is not a protein supplement. It's a green mineral supplement. It's not supposed to be a protein supplement. So you see how she's trying to like discredit him. And then, and then she talks about how he's an investor in a protein company. So that's why he's, you know, saying that it's more and you know, yeah, that he invested in Maui Nui Venison, which let us just take a moment for that Maui Nui Venison, because we love Maui Nui Venison. Actually, they're honestly like one of my favorite brands that we've, I think ever worked with. I'm so obsessed. So basically, what they're doing is the the deer venison population in Hawaii, they're an invasive species, they're actually kind of wrecking the ecosystem. So having a company like Maui Nui where they hunt these deer sustainably and in a stress free way. It's actually helping the ecosystem of Hawaii and then these deer it's a it's a it's an extremely nutritious protein, like it is very high in protein. So it's a lean red meat, really high in nutrients. It's delicious. Like I just I love this stuff. Like there's so much good that's coming from that. And we do need more protein in our diet. So it's kind of, yeah, it's it's and then there's I have some other notes. But do you have any other thoughts on that part? She also has a

Barry Conrad
Yeah, well I love that she's namedroped Dr. Gabrielle Lyon and also Maui Nui, so that's a good thing. So we love that. And we love that she brought up the audio to begin with, but you're right.

Melanie Avalon
in a negative light though, you know.

Barry Conrad
Yeah and also like i agree with you know pretty and whatnot and even human that you know one gram or even one point five grams is a way better starting point than that and i think it's just yeah i think it's really. Cheeky and it comes off really petty the fact that she tried to you know it quite the edgy one product with it's not a protein at all.

Melanie Avalon
Does somebody not fact check this before they publish it? Like Athletic Greens, who are a former sponsor of this show as well, not a protein supplement. Not a protein supplement. At all.

Barry Conrad
I also, it's so interesting because the day before I saw this for the first time, I saw someone that I follow, not going to call them out or anything, but they're sort of jokingly posted on their story, like a meme, and then they said something like, oh, if I hear another person say that I need more protein in my diet, like I'm going to throw something at the wall. And then I saw this article, and so I'm wondering, is that happening in America right now for real?

Are you seeing and feeling more like this wave? Because in Australia, we do see it online, but if it's like really big in America, is that a thing right now? Because this is an American trend here.

Melanie Avalon
Is it a thing in that it's very pervasive on social media, this protein messaging?

Barry Conrad
Well, in the States, I should say specifically, you know, like Americans.

Melanie Avalon
Well, it's hard for me to answer that. Well, this article makes it seem like it is. Oh, which really quickly what she says about Gabrielle Lyon, because she talks about how this protein is a very male driven thing. I'm going to get back to I'm going to get to your question. It relates to this.

So she quotes Cambridge Health Alliance and associate professor at Harvard Medical School, Peter Cohen, she says that he says, I don't have a good sense of what's driving that right now. Speaking to this, like, high protein thing, other than it's just the usual manosphere, or manomania here in the United States. Everyone's letting their testosterone out these days. And then when I read that, I'm like, well, so does that mean if I really want to eat this high protein diet, which I do, and I talk about all the time, does that mean that does that mean I'm I can't because like I'm a woman or does that mean I'm like supporting the manosphere, like, and then she talks about how there's an like, there's an intertwining of masculinity and red meat. But then she says, like, I'm going to get back to my question, I'm going to get back to my question, I'm going to get back to my question, I'm going to get back to my question, I'm going to get back to my question, I'm going to get back to my question, I'm going to get back to my question, I'm going to get back to my question, I'm going to get to what I was going to say. She says, big protein may have come for all of us because prior to that part of the article, she's talking about how protein is being driven by the manosphere.

And then she says, Mary Claire Haver and Gabrielle Lyon are prominent pro protein online personalities who target their content toward women. And an informal poll floated to an active group chat found that the respondent protein supplement enthusiasts had women slightly outnumbering the men sample size five. So that was kind of like a dig at them. To answer your question, it's hard for me to know because so much of my content is health and wellness.

And so I'm the target, I'm up for the algorithm, I'm the target for this. And I don't, I don't know what social media looks like here in the US when you're not into health and wellness. I don't know if this protein messaging is being thrust on everybody's throats. I'm guessing it is from this article and this conversation. But yeah, so just to just to say what I was saying earlier, I think it's so great that we're having an awareness on protein and it, because it actually can like change your metabolism. Like we talked about all the time, this shows for your metabolism, support weight loss, you're not going to be hungry, you're going to get your nutrients, like it's life changing for people. And the idea that there's these like male centric people, you know, doing protein powders and like at the gym, like with their selfies, like that can exist also, but it doesn't mean that high protein is big is quote, big protein coming for us.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's so extreme. I mean, you don't have to, especially the danger is that people start now avoiding protein just to steer clear of this manosphere slash bro image. Now that's not helpful. It turns people away.

And you're so right in her saying that about, you know, Dr. Gabroline, does that mean that if you now want to have a lot of protein, are you supported? Yeah. Are you supporting this whole movement or wave? It's not a movement. Protein has always been here. I don't understand that messaging or how it's even like relative to politics. I just, that to me, there's no connection to me at all. I don't get that. I didn't understand that reading the article.

Melanie Avalon
It's so, so interesting. And like I was saying, I'm very non-political personally. I would say I'm libertarian. I don't read the news.

I just let it filter its way down to me. But yeah, this was really, really, it was a good find for sure. Did we start talking about it because of how it references White Lotus?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, we were talking about Whiteloaders. Yeah, yeah.

The Patrick Swayze. Oh, not Patrick Swayze. Patrick Swayze. Patrick Swayze. He's in it, and then he's like, hey, there's this article, and he's on the front page kind of thing. Photo of him.

Melanie Avalon
What's weird about that part is because I just finished the season. Have you, are you watching it?

Barry Conrad
Not yet. I haven't, I know I'm going to watch it. I promise I'm going to see it, but I haven't seen it yet.

Melanie Avalon
two years because I was Googling and I think the next one's going to come out in like two years maybe. And when that season comes out, we're going to watch it together.

Barry Conrad
At the same time. Okay, that sounds good.

Melanie Avalon
So you have two years to get caught up, unless they surprise us and it comes out next month. And then you, I don't know what we'll do. We'll figure it out. We'll figure something out.

Barry Conrad
Well, what did you say? Melanie said that she liked the first season and then this third season. So is he standing by that, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, yeah, yes. Yes, I finished the third season. Mm hmm. So good. So good. My favorite. Yeah, so now my order is three, three, one, two, what's so that there

Barry Conrad
Good one. Wow. It must be really good then.

Melanie Avalon
I really liked it.

Barry Conrad
I'm not gonna take two years to watch it though don't worry.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, good. So we can talk about it.

Yeah, but she references some scene in that with Patrick Schwarzenegger and some scene where they throw down a protein shake and are joking about it. I don't even remember that scene. So it's like an example of the whole show was not some protein agenda. I didn't even remember that scene that she talks about.

Barry Conrad
I feel like I feel like that's cherry picking and I feel like it's also very topical and she's, it comes off like she's using that to, you know, get clicks. I don't, you know, yeah, Patrick.

Melanie Avalon
But I think, I don't know, I think articles like that. On the one hand, it's nice that it draws attention to high protein and these names out there. Maybe people will look up these, look up Gabrielle Lyon and look up, you know, Andrew Huberman and Peter Attia and actually be interested.

Maui Nui. Maui Nui, yeah. But I don't know. I just read that and I was like, okay, so basically you're saying if I like eating all the protein like I do and I identify as like a carnivore loving woman, then I'm supporting some political agenda, which is crazy to me.

Barry Conrad
It is crazy. I mean, you know, I definitely see it at the gym melt, like there's definitely gym bros and like protein, protein, protein, and it's this thing.

And you do see guys like that, but then I feel like there's extremes in it and anything, it doesn't mean everyone's like that, you know, it's just life.

Melanie Avalon
which, oh, that's what you were going to say, because I have not watched the Liver King documentary on Netflix. You haven't?

No, but my story about that is before he was famous, his company, Ancestral Supplements, I have been obsessed with for a long time, and they make these amazing grass-fed, different, all the different organs supplements. I reached out to them and I tried to get him on it's just as funny to me. I tried to get him on the podcast before he was like anything. I mean, he had the company because I was emailing back and forth with this guy, Brian, like the founder of the company. But then they were telling me, oh, Brian doesn't really, he doesn't like going on. He doesn't like being in the public media. I was like, okay. Then later, he became Liver King. I don't know what happened there.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, because when you see that, when you see the doco, he kind of gets into that a little bit like he hated doing like I'm paraphrasing, but he didn't like doing reels and videos and stuff, and he would take like

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so that tracks

Barry Conrad
Yeah, exactly. So he did all these things, like I had to do like 100 takes to do this, but I was like, you know, and then, but once he found like a sensational angle, like doing, you know, kind of out there stuff.

And I went viral, his team kind of pushed him to do it. And he's like, yeah, I've got to, I've got to keep doing this because it works.

Melanie Avalon
Well, that completely tracks that because I've been I've been very confused for a long time because he became so famous and I was like, wait, but we were emailing and he was saying they were saying he's like not about doing any like media stuff. So I was very confused.

That makes sense. I have to watch it.

Barry Conrad
It would kind of be like you, Melanie, all of a sudden, you know, or like vlogging your entire day from waking up. Yeah, it does. It's not really. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
And because I don't do that, because we know me, I'm like, Oh, wow. Okay, that's so interesting. That's been bothering me for a very long time.

Because I was kind of like, maybe it wasn't him, because I just don't see how he became so famous based on the exchange we had. But that makes sense. Okay.

Barry Conrad
You know when you first said you had something to tell me about the living king guy?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that would be really, yeah, no, that was not the case. I just tried to get him on my show, like literally when I had no idea who he was and neither did anybody else.

Barry Conrad
I could see how that would be confusing, but now I guess it kind of makes sense now, right? The doggo, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
us. Okay. Well, good find on that article.

Barry Conrad
No worries. You got it, you got it. I can't wait till you see the doco. I want to hear your thoughts, for real.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I have to watch. I haven't even watched the Brian Johnson documentary or I don't think I even watched the Peter Attia. I'm so bad at not watching documentaries.

The one with Chris N's words. I didn't watch that either.

Barry Conrad
You don't like tacos as much?

Melanie Avalon
No, I, I do. I, I don't know why I'm dropping the ball. It's usually because I'm like, have to watch Love Is Blind. And so, you know.

Barry Conrad
You answer love as blind?

Melanie Avalon
Barry, you know this. We've talked about this.

Barry Conrad
Okay. Wow. Okay. You like, okay. I don't know if I could, I could not do that. Come on.

Melanie Avalon
What? Are you judging me?

Barry Conrad
No, I mean, I couldn't watch it, but I couldn't be a contestant, the concept of it.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I could never. Yeah. And I don't like reality television series, but there's something about that show. I've watched every single season. Every single one.

Barry Conrad
I've seen, do you like the love on the spectrum?

Melanie Avalon
I don't I literally don't watch any other reality TV. So so I don't I don't know I actually have seen that it's played in The salon that I go to it's like been on the background But when I say I literally don't watch reality TV, I literally don't except love is blind and then every episode

Barry Conrad
Okay. Well, I've learned this about, you know, like every season, every episode. Okay. Didn't know that that much.

Melanie Avalon
I could not be on that show though.

Barry Conrad
You couldn't? Mm-mm. Why not?

Melanie Avalon
Because I think so much of attraction is there's a physical component to it. And I think it's then you get judged if you like connect, you know, they connect in the pods and don't see each other and it's real. And then if they see each other, if they're not attracted to each other physically, they're not attracted and that should be okay.

But then it's like, oh, they're judging them by, you know, it's like, no, their bodies are telling them physically. They're not supposed to be together. They should probably listen to their bodies.

Barry Conrad
Biology

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that's my thoughts. Do I think love is blind? I think non-romantic love is.

Barry Conrad
It was really funny the way you just said it was like very like do I think love is blind.

Melanie Avalon
But it's great when they do fall in love, and then they're still in love when they see each other, when they get married.

First season was in Atlanta, by the way. I've seen one of the guys on the dating apps. Really? Yeah.

Barry Conrad
Did you go on a date with him? No. Okay.

Melanie Avalon
shall we talk about some fasting things let's do it sorry listeners like this episode is a wild card.

Barry Conrad
That's the Walcott episode. Let's do the NPC Walcott.

Melanie Avalon
I know. Okay, do you have a study for us?

Barry Conrad
I do have a study which I'm actually really excited to share and the one I'm bringing today, it's called the effect of intermittent fasting combined with ad libidum days on adults elevated blood pressure, a systematic review of human studies. It was published in February 2025 by researchers Darina Bahruddin, Masayu Said, and Hazrin Abdul Majid from the University of Malaya in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

I've been there. It's really awesome. And the AECC University College in the UK. And Mel, one of the first things I caught my eye about this study in particular, why I love it, is it's human only data. No mice, no guesswork, it's human only. And secondly, it's a systematic review, which means it's pulled together and analyzed findings from 12 different high quality studies with over 1,000 participants in total, all adults with elevated blood pressure, which is basically that pre-hypertensive zone. The idea was to see how IF specifically alternate day fasting with ad libidum days affected blood pressure and related markers like weight, BMI, waist circumference, and energy intake. And listeners, if you don't know what ad libidum means, it basically just means eat freely. So specifically alternate day fasting with eat freely days. And they found that intermittent fasting consistently lowered both systolic and diastolic blood pressure across almost all the studies. And again, for listeners, if you don't know what that means, systolic is like the top number on blood pressure reading. That's the pressure when your heart's sort of actively pumping the blood and diastolic is the bottom number. That's when your heart's at rest, so between beats. And ideally, you want both to stay within a healthy range because elevated levels can put strain in your arteries and organs. So in this review, systolic dropped by up to 2.04 mmHg, and diastolic dropped by up to 3 mmHg. And yes, some of those numbers, it might sound small on paper, but when we're talking population level risk or even your own long-term cardiovascular health, that kind of shift is really meaningful and significant because small reductions in blood pressure can actually translate to pretty big decreases in heart attacks and strokes and things like that. So it also helped with body weight. And I'm really excited we're getting there. The participants lost anywhere from 0.09 to 2.85 kgs, which is about 0.2 to 6.3 pounds over 2 to 24 weeks. The same thing with BMI. So that dropped across the board, waist circumference, which reduced the longer the fasting protocol was followed. Fun fact, it actually took 48 weeks to see real measurable waist reduction. So yes, IF can help there, but what it's saying here, it's time and consistency, which we do talk about in the podcast as well. Give it time, be patient, and it's not a bad thing. It's just to reinforce for listeners out there who may be feeling frustrated that it's a lifestyle and it's definitely not going to happen in a week or a couple of days or even two weeks.

Barry Conrad
So energy intake, as expected, based on the study, went down. People naturally ended up eating less overall without being too obsessively. You know, they weren't counting calories obsessively, which is one of my favorite parts.

Again, Mel, because we talk about this aspect of IF so much on this pod, which is the freedom. The freedom that the fast allows. Like most of these fasting protocols didn't require color restriction on feast days. They weren't handing out, like, here's your strict macros or your meal plans. They just structured their fasting winners and they were free to eat normally. And while, yeah, for sure, it's absolutely way more ideal to focus on whole foods. We talk about that as well. It's pretty significant to know that this was something in there. Like people were not counting, they were just eating freely. And the researchers did note a couple of things, though. The longer the intervention, again, the more stable. So sticking with IF for 24 weeks or more. It helped maintain those blood pressure improvements. And although the study didn't dive super deep into hormonal markers or insulin resistance, it did highlight that IF can help shift your metabolism from glucose burning to fat burning, which we know contributes towards weight loss and overall better cardiovascular health. So to be clear, this study, it's not making any wild promises or anything like that, but showing again, once again, thank you science clearly that IF done consistently can really help with blood pressure, reduce your weight, improve your body composition without needing extreme diets or constant food tracking. So if you're someone with slightly elevated blood pressure listeners or you're looking to make proactive changes, you know, before it turns into something bigger, here's another bit of solid evidence that intermittent fasting is a tool worth exploring. Mel, what do you reckon about this study?

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, fine. I love this.

I actually was, because of one of the other shows I'm prepping right now, I was reading all about blood pressure yesterday, actually. So this was very timely for me.

And in the book I'm reading, it's prepping for Seamland, you know, he was talking about how blood pressure is, you know, it's called the silent killer, because people can have high blood pressure, which is severely linked to mortality issues and cardiovascular disease risk and things like that. And you just don't, you just don't know, you know, unless you're checking your checking your blood pressure.

Do you typically have your blood pressure typically when you get a check? Mine's always really low.

Barry Conrad
Mine's was pretty low as well.

Melanie Avalon
Not in a bad way.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, same.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, awesome. This is amazing that what I really, really like about this too, is people, we talk a lot about fasting and people worry about it being stressful, you know, for the body. So I can see how people might wonder if fasting because of the quote, stressful effect would actually raise blood pressure. So it's really nice to know that these fasting protocols and ones, like you said, where they're not where they're just kind of doing it slightly more casually, like they're just, you know, naturally eating what they're eating, that it can have these beneficial effects on blood pressure is awesome.

So yay. Yay. Cool, cool. So should we answer a listener question?

Barry Conrad
I reckon we should. So Tara from Facebook, hey Tara, she says, timing of berberine, seropeptase, seed and magnesium. Smiley face. Would prefer to take them all together every morning, but maybe save the seed for mealtime away from the seropeptase?

Question mark. Melanie, what are your thoughts?

Melanie Avalon
So for supplements that I love here, we get questions a lot about the timing of supplements and fasting versus eating. And it is true that everything you have to kind of look at individually. So I will tell you, Tara, what I do. I'll start with Serapeptase, which is a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. I think it's a wonderful way to enhance your fasting because A, it has to be taken in the fasted state to see the benefits. And it really helps catalyze the benefits of the fast because it's an enzyme that goes into your bloodstream and then it breaks down potentially problematic proteins in your body. So it's going to just like fasting will help reduce your inflammation and support autophagy and reduce cholesterol and support your brain health, all these things. Serapeptase is just going to catalyze that and do that even more. And it really helps with joint health and wound recovery. So I love Serapeptase.

So it has to be taken by itself on an empty stomach. So you could take that in the morning. Okay, she says take it all together every morning, but maybe save the seed for mealtime. Okay, so I would take the Serapeptase when you wake up and then wait at least an hour to take anything else. I actually take Berberine. So Berberine is going to really help with blood fast and it's going to help with your post glycemic response to food. So basically, so you won't have as high of blood sugar levels after eating. So you can take Berberine right before eating. I also take some in the morning. I actually do take it kind of around my Serapeptase. I actually take it before my Serapeptase. And I haven't had a problem with that so far, but you can do you. Ideally, take Serapeptase on an empty stomach. Berberine before meals would be the recommended way.

Seed is a probiotic. It can be taken with or without food. So I take it later in my fast during the day. For seed, that is a probiotic that I am obsessed with. And it's really wonderful for supporting gut health. It has so many studies behind it. I love it.

They actually recommend that you take it on ideally on an empty stomach, or at least 10 minutes before a meal. So what I do is I don't take it in the morning with Serapeptase. I take it later. But before I break my fast, I take it usually probably a few hours before I break my fast. So I take it in the middle of my fast. And then magnesium can be taken with or without meals. So I have two magnesiums. I have magnesium 8, which is a full body support, and then magnesium 3 and 8, which specifically crosses the blood-brain barrier. It's going to get magnesium into your brain. It's going to help your memory, your mood, your relaxation. So the way I would do it is I would take magnesium 8 with your meal, and then take magnesium nightcap. I take that right before bed.

So recap. And all of those are Avalonix products except for seed, which is its own brand. Recap. Serapeptase is on an empty stomach in the morning. Burberry, take that before meals.

Melanie Avalon
Seed, take it kind of like in the middle of your fast on an empty stomach, or at least 10 minutes before a meal. And then magnesium 8, I would take with your meals, and I would take magnesium nightcap before bed.

And listeners can get 10% off of all of these Avalonix supplements with the code IF Podcast. If you go to avalonix.us for seed, you can get 25% off, which is awesome. Go to seed.com slash IF Podcast and use the code 25IF Podcast. So again, that's seed.com slash IF Podcast, the code 25IF Podcast. Also, I realized I don't think we gave a link for Maui Nui Venison, did we? So if people are interested in that, which we love, you can go to MauiNuiVenison.com. So M-A-U-I-N-U-I-V-E-N-I-S-O-N.com slash IF Podcast. And that will bring you to our page there.

So yeah, any thoughts about that? I feel like I kind of answered it.

Barry Conrad
You nailed it. You're the queen of syrup, peptase, and all the things I have tried. I have tried your magnesium, and it actually really helps. That's all I'm going to comment on.

If you wanted to wind down your nervous system, obviously at night, I got you... The night cap on? Yeah, the night one. Yeah, the night one. Yeah, it's so good.

Melanie Avalon
Yay. Okey-dokey. Well, shall we have our... Oh, wait. Am I going to remember the word from last time?

Wait. I got this. I got this. Hold on. I've got this. There was like a word to remind myself. I was like, oh, it's kind of like this word, but it's not this word. And it starts with a D, right? Start with a D. You're close. It's like a... I don't know. I lost it. What's the word that I connected it to? Disgusting. Disgusting. That's right. That's right. Disgusting. Okay. Remember that. Degestation.

Barry Conrad
Yes, you got it.

Melanie Avalon
Except we realize it doesn't really fit what we're doing. Not really. So we auditioned it. We auditioned the word.

Barry Conrad
We gave it a screen test and it didn't quite.

Melanie Avalon
Didn't didn't pass. All right, so now it is time for our pervert wheel Hypothetical visualization breaking of our fast

Barry Conrad
simulation NPC proverbial.

Melanie Avalon
Simulation, yeah. So basically the point of this segment is we love food and we love fasting and so much of the benefits of fasting are actually from the eating period.

So we like to talk about, we like to showcase restaurants that we love or that look interesting to us that we maybe would like to go to. Also talk about what we would order so people can also see how we order at restaurants because I want people to know that you can make restaurants work for you if you have weird dietary ideas like me. Very orders like pretty normally, just a lot.

Barry Conrad
No, you order normally for you.

Melanie Avalon
Don't modify, you don't make modifications is what I'm saying.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, you're right. I don't.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's all I meant. Okay, so I am doing today's restaurant.

Barry Conrad
I'm curious to see, I'm waiting with better breath to see what it's going to be. Like a Disney situation, is it going to be something totally left field?

Melanie Avalon
So this restaurant, I have not been to this restaurant, it is at Epcot and it's themed like you're on a space station. And apparently you like take an elevator up and then you're like in space and then the food is like spacey.

Barry Conrad
Wow, I just looked at the page just loaded and you're exactly right. There's like people Sitting in this restaurant and outside the window you see like planet Earth. That's crazy

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, Google really quickly. It's called Space220, Space220. Google it for the images so you can see what it looks like more immersively.

Barry Conrad
Wowzers that's that's amazing. That's awesome. I'm checking out the photos now Like low lighting it's very like starstruck for Star Trek Star Trek vibes for sure like a film set almost it's cool

Melanie Avalon
And then some of the food looks cool, like the desserts look pretty cool and stuff. Did you find the dinner menu?

Barry Conrad
I am going to the dinner menu right now, view menu and see what we got here.

Melanie Avalon
Oh wait, is this a set price? Oh my goodness, I picked a set price.

Barry Conrad
That's your favourite, isn't it?

Melanie Avalon
My favorite. Okay, well, this will be good.

People can see how I or how I will navigate a set price menu and they'll see how how so Barry, how are you going to navigate because you need more food then. So basically, it includes an appetizer and entree and a dessert. Well, you can have my dessert. So, so now you got two desserts. Maybe we should order like an additional maybe we should order for like three.

Barry Conrad
I think we should because it's seventy nine bucks. Let's do three.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. And then we can like pick like three.

Yeah. Okay. So, so we can pick three. I wonder how many people do this. It's just so funny. If we go to restaurants ever when we're like hanging out in real life all the time, like, so we get to pick three of the liftoffs. Okay. Oh my goodness. Okay. I see. Oh, I see one that I like.

Barry Conrad
Me too. Mmm. You go. You go head first.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, definitely the Wagyu Beef Carpaccio, the Andromedia Wagyu Beef Carpaccio, which is, is that a typo? Wagyu Beef, I think there's a typo, Disney, Wagyu Beef Pomegranate Seeds, Potato Chips, Truffle, Cipriani Sauce, and Shaved Parmesan.

So is it okay if we get that, prepare, like put, get everything on the side?

Barry Conrad
Yeah. So is that going to be, should we get that one as the third one? Is that what you mean?

Melanie Avalon
Well, I mean, I feel like, well, what's one that you want and we'll see. What was one that you wanted?

Barry Conrad
I could definitely get down with that. That sounds delicious.

Melanie Avalon
Was that what you were gonna order?

Barry Conrad
I was going to get the Apollo 16 Shrimp Tacos. I love tacos and I do love shrimp slash prawns, so that was going to be my one.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, for the third one, I do love tuna tartare. I get nervous about mercury levels. I think you can just pick the third one. What do you want for the third one?

Barry Conrad
So we've got the and germano wagyu beef carpaccio. We've got the Paula 16 shrimp tacos. I reckon for the third one, it sounds really good to me.

Is the, oh no, but you're not going to eat that. Let's do the Tata, the Neptune Tata.

Melanie Avalon
You have to order for me. You can get whatever you want.

Barry Conrad
Starry calamari. I'll do that. It's fried calamari, Italian cherry peppers, spicy marinara, roasted pepper, citrus, aioli. Yes.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, perfect. So now we have the main course. So should we both order one and then do you see a course? What would you get for your course?

Barry Conrad
What's jumping out at me is going to be the orbit filet mignon certified Angus beef, creamy mashed potatoes, haricot vert, red wine reduction, and you can add jumbo shrimp. And you know what, I'm going to get the add the jumbo shrimp and the half lobster options.

Melanie Avalon
That's nice. Now you can actually like fill it out more, you know, you know, it's crazy. That's exactly what I was going to get. Except, except every except I need to change the side dishes, please.

If you can bring it with trying to see if spinach is anywhere on the menu, I would request if they can bring it with like steam spinach. But if not actually, honestly, would you want my side dishes? Yeah. Okay. So and then I will I will also add shrimp and lobster. And I'll get mine as rare as they will make it like blue. Please. How about you? How are you getting cooked?

Barry Conrad
I'm gonna go medium rare for me, but I'm curious to see what you reckon because I reckon I'd like for you to be able to pick at the third course so what what's one that you really. Would like already.

Melanie Avalon
There's two I'm excited about and then do you want to pick from there? I would say either the M87 pork tenderloin or the galactic miso salmon.

Barry Conrad
I'm going to do the pork tenderloin. Let's do it. Prosciutto and sage-wrapped tenderloin, sweet potato hash, whole grand mustard sauce.

Melanie Avalon
How, how would we get this?

Barry Conrad
You can choose that because I want you to appear to eat it. So you can choose the, I'm happy with just not done well done or anything.

Melanie Avalon
Since it's pork, we could, I mean, I feel like with pork that, you know, like, I know when I worked in steakhouses, we always recommended medium for pork.

Barry Conrad
It's definitely not a rare podcast to be right, you know.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I can eat pork rare, but. What? Yeah. I'll eat anything rare.

Barry Conrad
I thought pork rare is like, from a health perspective, it's not great. Like it's.

Melanie Avalon
I think they have to like cook it to, or do we cook it to medium rare? They might cook it to medium rare, but I think, I think medium medium's a safe, a safe bet.

So, okay. Okay. Oh, wait, wait, wait. We, we missed, we missed the space station supplementals. Okay. So these are an upcharge. These are like a, these are a different entree that, but it doesn't change mine, but does it change yours?

Barry Conrad
No, because I've already got the extra shrimp and half lobsters, so I'm pretty happy. Okay.

Melanie Avalon
and you wouldn't have gotten a ribeye instead of a fillet.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I like the option that I chose. I like it. Okay, cool.

Melanie Avalon
Now three desserts you get to pick all of them. Wait, can I guess what you want?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I guess.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I think you want the, the chocolate, the sole chocolate tart. Yep, correct. Do you want the chocolate cheesecake?

Barry Conrad
Yes.

Melanie Avalon
cosmic cheesecake. Oh my gosh, two out of, okay. Final one. Oh my gosh, I'm nervous.

Okay, I feel like you do kind of what you do maybe. I feel like you want to balance it out with like gelato or sorbet. Maybe. Oh, birthday cake. I think you want birthday cake gelato. I do. Really? That was it?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, actually.

Melanie Avalon
Whoa, wait, let me take a bow. Three for three? OK, wait, it was crazy. There were options for the gelato and I got the right flavor.

Barry Conrad
Because I already got two chocolates, so I wanted something different, but I wanted gelato.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Oh my goodness. I'm so proud of myself right now. Okay. And I'm excited because I want to see the birthday cake gelato. I want to like smell it.

Barry Conrad
What would that look like? I'm trying to get a visual.

Melanie Avalon
I feel like it just depends. I feel like if it doesn't have it's either going to be like just look like vanilla or it's going to have like sprinkles in it.

Barry Conrad
Cause I feel like, and the smelling thing, like I caught a picture, you're going, Hey, can you just pass that to me? And you just like look around, if anyone's watching, then just quickly smell it.

Like, what are you, how are you going to do it?

Melanie Avalon
Well, by the time we get to dessert, I have like a lot of wine in me. So, you know, I'm probably just, I'm not going to be like super concerned.

Barry Conrad
Speaking of, also we forgot the satellite sides. Do you like any of those sides?

Melanie Avalon
Do you want any of the sides? I'm good.

Barry Conrad
I'm good too. Do they have a wine list? Because I feel like we need beverages.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, let's see. They have kids' celestial beverages and zero proof sippers.

Okay, so there's spirits, atmospheric spirits, and these drinks, by the way, look really cool. Like they're all like very, you know, like some, I think one of them's like smoking and, you know,

Barry Conrad
Nice.

Melanie Avalon
like freeze dried raspberries, tang foam. I'm just looking at some of the popping pearls. Let's see, wine list does not look promising.

Barry Conrad
It doesn't? Okay, I'm looking at it.

Melanie Avalon
I wonder though, you know what, this is by the glass. I wonder if it's been so long since I've been to Disney and actually, like I wonder if I can, if they have a bottle list, you know, there.

I feel like at Disney, I'm gonna have to go the bottle list for most restaurants because I have noticed, I have noticed with all of the Disney menus that I look at regularly, the by the glass list tends to be heavily California based and it tends to be a lot of like chains. Like I know all the wines on the list basically.

Barry Conrad
I reckon they'll have a bottle list. I mean, surely, can't just be by the glass. You know what? You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. Although I do like okay. I do like the Santa Margherita Pinot Grigio. It's organic. It's from Italy. They have that I do like that wine. Do you see a drink?

Barry Conrad
I would definitely get a Pinot Grigio, Santa Magorida, I'll definitely get a glass or two. See if there's a bottle, I'll get a bottle of that because I like to get a bottle and then a cocktail to atmospheric spirits.

I love my Magoritas, but what I'll actually do is when we're there.

Melanie Avalon
with watermelon. Do you see that?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I don't, I don't love that part when I'm there, I'll be like, do you, what's like your most popular, like atmosphere experts, like what looks cool, tastes good. I'll try that.

Cause I like to try the, you know, what's, you know, the specialty of the, of the joint. So I might do that. See what they have. I'm game.

Melanie Avalon
I feel like this will be this is going to be one that we're going to get really good Instagram pictures of like the drink that you order. And that like when we do the boomerang of like the Cheers. I don't know if you Yeah, it's going to be a really epic picture. I see it now.

Barry Conrad
Are you going to wear a space themed ensemble?

Melanie Avalon
Oh my gosh, we could dress up. I don't know if space is like, I have to think about what costume would be flattering. I could see it. Cause like, I should pick an astronaut, not the most flattering.

Barry Conrad
You don't want to go like the, did you see the recent all female space situation with Katy Perry and all them?

Melanie Avalon
I did, yeah.

Barry Conrad
Could you go wearing that one of those ensembles?

Melanie Avalon
Oh, I didn't see what they wore.

Barry Conrad
Just Google it real quick and see.

Melanie Avalon
they dressed up like a movie. They look like Star Trek. I can't I can't do bodysuits. Why not? So uncomfortable. Like all that clothing. I can't do long sleeves. I can't use I can't do sleeves.

Barry Conrad
You know what, now that you said that, I, and I think you may have told this to me before like off air, but I actually had never seen you wear like a jacket or like a blouse or something like with sleeves. Never.

Melanie Avalon
So I do have, I have this really cute blazer that I will occasionally wear. It's like very loose, but it's like fitted type thing. It's like loose fitted and you wear it over cocktail dresses. I will wear that on occasion.

In general though, I just carry my, I have like this fur vest thing and then I just carry it and it keeps me warm. I just hold it like a pet. It keeps me so warm. It's amazing.

Barry Conrad
But what if it's winter and it's freezing outside, just say you've gone to dinner, you're wearing one of your dresses with no sleeves and stuff, and then you're waiting outside for an Uber or something.

Melanie Avalon
You can get cold. Not in Atlanta, but that vest does a lot. Holding that vest actually keeps me really warm.

But when I went to Sundance, I had to buy, I bought a puffer jacket, but it was Michael Corzine and it was really cute. What I can't handle is when it's really tight around your arms, like your armpits. I can't. So this was very loose.

Barry Conrad
Why can't you handle that?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I don't like I don't like sleeves. I don't know how you do it. I could not be a man. I could not be a man. Oh my gosh. I'm just realizing

Barry Conrad
I could not be a woman. I couldn't do it. It's too breezy, like. Too breezy? Wearing

Melanie Avalon
dresses.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I mean, that's all I... Sometimes that thought crosses my mind like, that'd be so cold. Like, I'll be out at night and seeing... No, it's freezing. No way. Couldn't do it.

Melanie Avalon
What's funny is I've had this same conversation with a man and he was saying that, he was saying how it must be nice to be, it would be nice to be a woman to be able to just like wear dresses and like all the loose clothing. I was like, yep, it's great.

I love it.

Barry Conrad
Well, maybe he should not wear as tight clothing because you now like baggy is kind of in as well. I guess it depends what you're wearing.

If you're wearing like sweatpants, if you're wearing, you can like dress relaxed as a guy. I feel like he's being dramatic. Come on, bro.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, well, I yeah, so I can't I can't wear it off to think about the space outfit because I'm not sure about this

Barry Conrad
maybe one time you surprise yourself and your followers with like pants or something like that. I don't know, just surprise or wearing a suit or whatever.

Melanie Avalon
I do have like a pant, a very flowy pant onesie thing. And it actually looks like a dress though. You can't, I have a few of those. I have some onesies, but they're, they don't have sleeves.

Barry Conrad
Do you know, you know, when people say onesies, guess what I think about pajamas? Teletubbies.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that makes sense. I remember when that came out and I was like, what is happening? What is this show?

Barry Conrad
But I'm not calling you a teleteller. I'm just saying that's my visual. I have a weird sense of humor sometimes.

Melanie Avalon
Does stuff happen in that show? Like, are there plots?

Barry Conrad
I don't know. I've actually never seen it. I've just seen photos and stuff.

Melanie Avalon
I saw it when it came out, yeah. Well, that was fun.

On that note, thank you listeners and friends for being here with us on this wild card episode. I feel like we just went all over the place. So, so fun, though, for listeners. These show notes for today's episode will be at ifodcast.com slash episode 434. Those show notes will have a full transcript. They'll have links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out. And you can get all the stuff that we like at ifodcast.com slash stuff we like. And you can follow us on Instagram. I'm Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad, and we are if podcast. Okay, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad
Thanks again for tuning in everyone. We really appreciate it and we'll catch you next time.

Melanie Avalon
Alright, I will talk to you next week.

Barry Conrad
Okay, talk to you soon.

Melanie Avalon
Bye. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

See you next week!

Aug 05

Episode 433 – Safe Cooking Methods, IF Vs. CR Benefits, Charred Meat Problems, Advanced Glycation End Products, Should You Like Bitter/Gross Foods, Fasting To Protect The Liver, Treating NAFLD, Fasting And Autophagy, And More!

Influence of intermittent fasting on autophagy in the liver⁠

Welcome to Episode 433 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

SHOW NOTES

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MAUI NUI

Maui Nui offers 100% delicious, wild harvested axis deer. Maui Nui axis deer are free roaming and stress free, making the cuts incredibly high quality and nutrient, free of hormones and antibiotics. Maui Nui's mission is to help restore Maui's ecosystem by responsibly managing the overpopulated axis deer that are damaging Maui's land. Head to mauinuivenison.com/ifpodcast to secure your access to select venison cuts.

HARVEST RIGHT

LMNT

LINKS

Featured Restaurant: ⁠Commander's Palace⁠⁠⁠

STUDIES:

⁠The Beneficial and Adverse Effects of Autophagic Response to Caloric Restriction and Fasting⁠

⁠Fasting, mitophagy, and aging⁠

⁠Dawn-to-dusk intermittent fasting is associated with overexpression of autophagy genes: A prospective study on overweight and obese cohort

⁠⁠If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 433 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 433 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?

Barry Conrad
Hey Melanie, I am doing so good. I am also in a state of just consolidating things, tying things up because I have three more days, well two more days, therefore I officially leave.

Sydney, I move away forever.

Melanie Avalon
This is so crazy. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Because you're moving, and then you're going to move after the next move to the US.

Barry Conrad
So basically, I leave Sydney where I've been for over 20 years.

Melanie Avalon
Over 20 years!

Barry Conrad
It's a long time here and then I go to Melbourne for, you may have heard me talking about Destiny, I'm going there for some pre-production one more time for about three weeks I'll be there and then I go to New York to set up shop over there for the month of June and then I come back to Melbourne from July to September to do the play and then in September I officially moved to New York so that's a massive massive massive huge deal like it's bittersweet like it's not a lot of time to think about how I feel of course it's super exciting I'm very very excited and also it's like you know when you're busy doing stuff you don't have time to think about oh wow I'm actually leaving where I've lived for so long like friends and routine and yeah so it's it's crazy it's wild in two days I'm out of here

Melanie Avalon
I'm always I'm always in awe that you just so easily and casually show up to these recordings while like moving. I'm like I'm like not I'm a wreck with moves.

Really? Yeah I mean I'm not like an unpleasant person to be around or anything it just is a lot like moving is a lot of moving pieces to handle.

Barry Conrad
Unintended, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yes. Wow. That must feel... How does that feel? Do you know? You've been there so long. Like, are you sad? Are you...

Barry Conrad
Yeah. Well, last night I had a gathering with a few friends who were doing a tribute to a friend of ours that we lost. I think I told you about him, Chris. So much love to Chris, my friend Chris, who I lost recently.

But we had a gathering for him last night and I hadn't seen this group of friends in like probably years altogether. So us being together, it just brought back the nostalgia of like, wow, like I've had a lot of life happen here. And so it's super exciting what's happening. I'm so grateful and excited for what's coming. And also it's normal just to also at some point just process like, wow, like, okay, a bit of grief in some sort of a small way, not really grief, but you know what I'm saying? Like just processing it. But yeah, I'll let you know how I feel. But at the moment, it's just like I'm going with it and doing it, I guess.

How do you feel about change like that, like big change?

Melanie Avalon
Well, first of all, I'm sending so much love for your friend, everything that happened. I'm so sorry. So, so sorry about that. So sending you love.

Your friends in Sydney, like your friends in general, like are, are, are, is a large majority of your friends like local to Sydney or is it, I'm sorry I didn't answer your question, I will, but is it more, they're kind of everywhere? Yeah. Well,

Barry Conrad
Well, I have a yeah, I do have a community of friends here in Sydney, you know built a life here And also I have a lot of friends who live interstate because of being an actor and a performer So it's like you have a lot of international friends, which is what I'm looking forward to when I do move stateside It's not like I don't know anyone but yeah, I definitely have friends here and and some people that I'm like, can we catch up?

Can I see you but I might have to just catch some of them when I? Come back for destiny and just like take a flight down to Sydney or something

Melanie Avalon
how far is it? Is it Melbourne or Melbourne? How do you pronounce it?

Barry Conrad
Okay, a lot of Americans hate Melbourne, but it's meant to be like Melbourne.

Melanie Avalon
Right, because there's an R in there, right?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, Melbourne.

Melanie Avalon
But when you say it, I don't hear where's the R. I'm listening. I don't hear it.

Barry Conrad
Annunciate, what did you say? Melbourne, Melbourne.

Melanie Avalon
He said it's like a short flight.

Barry Conrad
It's like an hour, like an hour and 10 minutes, so pretty quick.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, yeah, wait, what did you ask me?

Barry Conrad
How do you handle big changes like in terms of like geographical changes where you have to like uproot your life, friends, groups, things like that? Are you easily adapted to change? Are you more like, I need a second to...

Melanie Avalon
My entire life, I've always felt very purpose-driven and like I'm on this journey and I'm working towards something. So all the really big changes, like moves and things like that have usually been fueled by a platform of excitement. So that usually, I'm usually looking forward to the change. And then you do get, I do get, it's like bittersweet, you know, and I might get a little sad and nostalgia again.

Like I still, like I'm here in Atlanta, but I still really miss LA. The thing is, it's nice that we're in such a connected world today where you can maintain, you know, so many relationships. Like just asking you that question about where, you know, where are the majority of your friends? Like, if I think about through my friends, like, I mean, a majority of my friends are not here in Atlanta. They're like, like you, you know? So, and so many people I know like through the podcast and through the show. So I guess I just tell myself like, you know, that place is still there, you know, you can always go back and I like my routine, I like my stability. And if I'm making change, it's usually for some sort of goal. So I'm usually feeling good about it, if that makes sense.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, of course.

Melanie Avalon
Well, happy, happy moving. So is all your stuff moved then?

Barry Conrad
So I've pretty much like, Mel, I've done a big overhaul of stuff because I listened to, I told you, your Mindblowing podcast, this is going back when I did the first move. I've gotten rid of so much stuff, which I feel super proud of, and I'm still getting rid of stuff.

So I'm going to be going pretty lean, which is the goal, because I just want to get everything new and I move to New York. Because in Melbourne, it's like a work pad. It's not like your place, you know, it's like accommodation. So yeah, so I feel good about that.

Melanie Avalon
Exciting. Well, keep us updated and congrats in advance on the show, which by the time this comes out, because this airs August 4th.

Barry Conrad
Oh, yeah, we're just about to, we're literally, I think next week, if we're in August 4th right now, it's we're about to kick off shows. So it's happening.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, so exciting. Congrats to future Barry. This is Anne Curranberry.

Barry Conrad
What about you, Melanie Evelyn? What's new in your world? How are you doing as your week?

Melanie Avalon
Well, I am really excited about, this will be a very teaser conversation because we don't have the specific details yet. And, but, and Barry and I had quite a long call earlier with some people who have actually been on both shows. They've been on this show and they've been on my biohacking podcast. So listeners will be familiar when I actually announced the relationship, but assuming that we do this, which I think we're going to, we're working on developing, we're not actually developing, well, we're working with them to create this, which will actually be a AI, like an AI, an AI, I guess that's what you call them, that will be really informed on the content of the show and how we feel about fasting and all the things. And it also comes to two conversations and relationships that you have with it from a very empathetic approach. So basically, I really like the programming of it, its view on relationships and communication and how to interact with people. And it will be trained on all the fasting stuff. So what we're hoping is that it will be a resource for people to have an account and be able to ask all your fasting questions to it and get answers like we would give. It's not going to pretend to be us or anything, but give answers like we talked about on the show and also help people if you're struggling with your fasting and you really want to break your fast, you'll be able to talk to it and it'll be able to talk you off the ledge and help you strengthen your fasting muscle. I'm really excited.

I think it's going to be really cool. How do you feel, Barry? We had a really long call today.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, it was actually a really, really exciting call and wait until you guys all see what we mean. It sounds, it's not just like a chatbot or just like some generic thing. This is something that's gonna really help add value to what we do with the podcast, make things easy for you to find information on the podcast and about fasting and about health.

So it's really fascinating too, because it's something completely new that I've never really delved into before too. And it was, it was amazing. It was like a long call, but in a productive way. And yeah, yeah, I'm excited Mel, it's gonna be awesome.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I'm so excited. I think what I'm really excited about is, I mean, I use AI and like chat GPT and Claude and all these other ones daily. And they really, really helped my life.

And I think I would have wanted, I know I would have wanted in the future to create something like that to go with the show. And the avenue that this is coming through, I just really, really respect the people behind it. And I love that there's this added layer that what they do is they're focused more on the helping people with like, mental health and wellness and relationships and things like that. So that basically the perspective of this AI is the perspective I would want. And then being able to train it on all of our information and then like hand it off to the listeners. So then listeners can just have it as a tool in their toolbox. I'm excited. Should be fun.

Barry Conrad
People first and which is what we're about so it's amazing

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So good. Shall we jump into fasting related things?

Barry Conrad
I reckon we should. Do you have a special study for us today, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
I do and it's great because I picked this study anyways and then I realized that it actually relates to one of the listener questions. So I'm going to talk about it now and then I'll reference it later.

Yeah, because we'll get to the second question. So this is a 2023 study published in Bioscience Trends and it is called Influence of Intermittent Fasting Onatophagy in the Liver. So we talk a lot about the role of fasting to support atophagy on this show. And basically what atophagy is, is this process where the body breaks down problematic old dysfunctional proteins and fixes them up and can even recycle them to build new functioning proteins. So it's so, so important for health and wellness and especially longevity. It's really, really key. It's kind of probably like when you're moving and you're going through and getting rid of the old things and making things fresh. Yes, in any case, we know that intermittent fasting in general promotes atophagy as well as a lot of other things. But this study is about how specifically it activates atophagy in the liver and how that is so important for helping with cellular homostasis. So basically keeping the cells in a state that they should be in, not overly stressed. And then it also helps with energy balance, quality control, cell and tissue remodeling, and defense against damage and pathogens. And the liver is, I feel like the liver is, do we appreciate our liver enough? We need to because it does so many things for our body. Liver health is so key for everything that people go through. So it's interesting because this study, what this study concludes is that by activating atophagy in the liver, that fasting has a potential role to actually treat liver disease.

So things like alcoholic liver disease, but also non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, which by the way, I was reading this yesterday, the percent of people that have non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, and it's a shocking amount of people. I think I was listening to it on a podcast last night, actually. Oh yeah, that's right. Okay. So I thought it was 30%. So 25 to 30%, one in three adults have non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, which is wild. wild. And, and what's so crazy about it. I was listening to this interview last night. It was on Dr. Peter T as the drive. And I remember him telling a story and I've heard this on other, like I've read this in other books as well. Like it's like the first time historically when doctors saw, it's called NAFLD would see it in patients and they wouldn't believe that the patients weren't drinking alcohol because this didn't used to be a thing. People did not used to have fatty liver, not from drinking. Like, like, like drinking was typically what caused fatty liver, cirrhosis, psoriasis, psoriasis. And then we started getting it from people who weren't drinking. And I've heard multiple times like different physicians say the first time, you know, that a patient came to them and had fatty liver and said they didn't drink. They're like, Oh, they just must be lying.

Melanie Avalon
But it's the diet of, it's our modern diet and processed foods and sugar, especially high in fructose and high fructose corn syrup, which creates this fatty liver situation. And when the liver is backed up with fat, it can't do all the things it does, which is so important, which including regulating blood sugar, which is so important, including things like, I mean, obviously like, like detoxifying everything that we put into our body. It's just so important for metabolic health.

So it's interesting to me, because what they conclude is that fasting is great for treating liver diseases specifically, which makes it sound like it's just if you have like a liver problem. Like they also mentioned, like drug-induced liver injury, viral hepatitis, hepatic fibrosis. With that said, the two things, one, it's not just liver disease. And then two, like non-alcoholic body liver disease, 30% of people have this. So fasting can be, you know, amazing for really helping support the health of your liver.

And they say some of the ways that it does this is by, let's see, it helps activate AMPK, which is a signaling nutrient signaling pathway we talked about on the show, which really helps support longevity. It affects mTOR. It can silence CERT1. So we have these, there are seven CERT2 ends in the body. They're basically, they're sort of like longevity genes, but they're proteins that are super involved in aging and your metabolism and inflammation and cellular repair. And there's seven of them and they all have different like things that they do to help support our health. So the autophagy in the liver can help support or it's involved in CERT1, which is one of those. It can silence pathways, which lead to inflammatory cytokines. So basically pathways in the liver that would lead to signaling, which creates inflammation, the autophagy can help turn that off basically. So it's very protective of the liver, very helpful for aging and longevity, helpful for combating fatty liver disease, which again, to me, it's just wild that up to 30% of the population has that and it's often silent. Like people don't realize that they have fatty liver until maybe they get like a scan and realize it. So yeah, autophagy in the liver.

Barry Conrad
Wow. Like I've actually, it's such an amazing study because I never heard of this before and an idea that IF could actually treat non-alcoholic fatal liver disease. What did you say? Like one in three adults. That's that statistic is mind-blowing.

Do they know how like how soon into or do they talk about how soon into sort of fasting protocol that the liver shows signs of improvement or is it like weeks, months? Is there, do they talk about that or is there a specific type of fasting or in general that they talk about in the study? Well, not really.

Melanie Avalon
So, it doesn't give any one specific thing. It's a review of a lot of studies. So, the ones they mention in it, they talk about ADF, for example. They talk about modified ADF, the 5.2 diet, and then just time-restricted feeding in general. So, they don't actually give a time or an amount. They do say at the end, in the conclusion, they say guidance should be provided on how to select an IF regimen that is appropriate for a particular goal.

It should include the types of foods that should be consumed, how physical activity should be performed, and how long it should be. The efficacy and safety of different IF protocols and different populations also needs to be continually evaluated, more attention should be paid, and two advances in the research and use of IF in the near future. So, basically, because the majority of the study is like a deep diet. So, I was mentioning all those pathways and different things earlier. The majority of the study is just talking about the science of all those different pathways and then saying that fasting can activate this, but it doesn't give an actual, like, do this type of fast.

Barry Conrad
Well, I think either way, the fact that intermittent fasting is all protective of our liver as well. And that's also, you know, for me, who loves to drink alcohol, you like to drink alcohol as well, no, and not in excess, but it's just good to know that it's, we're fine as well.

You know, it's such a healing tool that we have. And the fact that it can, that you found these, like the studies found that it can treat non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, not just prevent, but like treat, that's, I don't know, I think it's incredible. And should give people peace of mind as well. You know, I think in general, it's just, that's amazing.

Melanie Avalon
I will say it does say, just to be super clear, it has a potential role in treating. Essentially, yes.

I will say something. This is a tangent, but I was listening to everything. A lot of the content I consume is so similar that I forget what comes from what, but was it in his book? I'm reading right now Seamland's new book on longevity. Honestly, he's the smartest kid I think I've ever met. His books are mind-blowing. I think it was in that book, because he's talking all about centenarians and what we see in them. I thought this was so interesting.

It mentioned how the blood work of centenarians, what they tend to have better than the normal population and what might not be as good. For example, the lipid panels of centenarians are typically pretty good, like low triglycerides and things like that. But he did say that liver enzymes tend to be more elevated in centenarians. I was like, that's interesting.

And then he listed some other things as well. I think kidney and liver tended to not be as good, but blood glucose and lipid panels tend to be good.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, right. I wonder if they find anything else in the future about if there's a specific protocol or how long or how long it takes for people to see those changes, like the detail that I want if that will come out in the future.

Because that'd be really interesting to know even dietary choices if that changes the effect of what it has on the liver. Yeah, interesting. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so gotta protect your liver. I do love the livers though, just to love on the liver for a second. It is such an incredible. It is such an incredible organ like it can it can completely regenerate, which is crazy. You know, it's like, I'm pretty sure it's the only organ that that really does that like you can, you know, have, have a liver in a really bad shape. And change the lifestyle and the environment surrounding it and it can you can basically like grow a new liver, given enough time, which is amazing. We love the liver. Shout out to the livers shout out to all the livers out there.

We love our mothers and we love our liver.

Barry Conrad
Oh wow, we love our mothers and we love our liver. Question about liver. Have you eaten? Is it a thing in America, eating liver?

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so the funny thing about liver is my grandmother is German. And so she would always give us like liverwurst growing up, which is like liver, but it's like that paste. It's like very seasoned and very not like it's not like having like a thing of just cooked liver. But it's funny because I loved it growing up and I would like ask for liver and I just thought it was so amazing.

And then I like had an epiphany one day that it was liver, which is seen as kind of a gross thing. And I was like so grossed out and I stopped eating it, which is like, which is so silly. The second answer to your question, I find it really interesting that liver, like I love meat, I love, I tend to like everything I eat from an animal. And I don't like liver. So actual liver just cooked like normally. And I had a time when I was anemic. And I was like, if there's ever a time that I'm going to love liver, I'm going to love this liver because I need iron. It should taste really good to me. I cook some it tasted so gross.

So I don't know. I don't know what's going on there. I have a theory. But yeah, do you like liver?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, yeah, because in South Africa, we had a lot of liver growing up and I think it's delicious. I think people get... Like how was it cooked? It's like fried.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, okay. I might like it fried. I mean, you know, like process like it's fried or like liverwurst or something. Have you had it though?

Like the way I tried to cook it, which is I just like bought some liver at Whole Foods and then put it in the oven.

Barry Conrad
No...

Melanie Avalon
No, definitely not. It tasted so I, it was a situation like last week, you talked about how I'm gonna love the octopuses.

Pusses. It was a situation where I was like, I'm gonna, it was the opposite. I was like, this is gonna taste so good. I'm gonna love this and it tasted horrible.

Barry Conrad
So how did you know how to cook did you just kind of look up a recipe saying let me just put this in the oven And I did not I did not look up

Melanie Avalon
recipe.

No, I just like, I figured, um, I eat meat so plain and I probably looked up how to maybe, maybe looked up what temperature to cook it at, but I just thought figured I could just cook it and that, you know, that like meat, I thought it would be like meat.

Barry Conrad
And it just was not a hit, it just did not do it.

Melanie Avalon
and tasted so bad.

Barry Conrad
That's disappointing when you want something to be good, you know?

Melanie Avalon
And like I said, this was when I was anemic. So in theory, my body should like it. Because it's very high nutrients, but that's my theory.

My theory is that I think it's so high in nutrients, things like vitamin, especially fat soluble vitamins that we could overdose on, that maybe our body, it's just my theory, maybe our body's evolutionarily, we developed a distaste of it because to prevent toxicity.

Barry Conrad
That's a good theory actually that's actually that could maybe be true and also i feel like you should give it a you should give it another chance i feel like you had one bad experience with this liver situation there's probably a better way to cook it. If i'm being honest and then you maybe you'll enjoy it.

Melanie Avalon
I feel like though if it's good, it shouldn't need to be cooked differently to taste good. Have we had this conversation? I think we have about the oysters.

Barry Conrad
Oh, it's back to the worst. Okay. What about them? What?

Melanie Avalon
Like if it's good for my body, it should taste good. I shouldn't need to like do anything special to it to make it taste good.

Barry Conrad
Okay, no, I'm going to have to maybe disagree with that.

Melanie Avalon
I know the conversation. When we went to dinner, when I took the picture of what I ordered for you, the big oyster at the Michelin star restaurant here in Atlanta. And actually in my defense, because we went with my friend who's a Michelin, he works, he's the manager of the bar at another Michelin restaurant. And everybody at the table was saying like, oh, well, you just need to like add stuff to it.

And then he came to my defense. And he said, no, he agreed with me that technically speaking, it should just taste good. Bye.

Barry Conrad
It should just happen though, you know, you shouldn't have to do anything fancy to it. But then in saying that there's plenty of things that are good for you, and you could probably agree with this, that you don't like the taste of, right?

Like a vegetable or like, come on, right? Because some people hate the taste of...

Melanie Avalon
No, I actually really stand by this theory. I really think our bodies are intuitive.

And so, for example, with broccoli and bitter foods, we don't like them as kids oftentimes. And I think it's because our body is telling us that it has these antinutrients in them and stuff. But then it's like an acquired taste. I guess taste buds do change, that's for sure. So there's that.

Barry Conrad
I used to hate coffee and now I can't get enough of it, so that's one thing that I never thought that I'd like. We should put a poll up there.

Listeners, do you think that if a food is good for you, it should just taste good and you should not have to do anything crazy to it? We all phrase that in a way that you can understand, but we're curious to hear what you think.

Melanie Avalon
I think I just feel like intuitively if we're, oh, here's a big caveat. This doesn't apply if you're eating processed foods because that just completely like messes up, like that messes up your natural intuition of what tastes good, you know?

So you just want like the processed food and then it changes your microbiome and then you're craving like the stuff that's not good for you. But like a person who only eats whole foods, I just feel like intuitively their body knows and I feel like my body was like, oh, this liver, we shouldn't be eating this right now.

Barry Conrad
I think you'll like, if you had my mom's fried, the way that we had it, like my grandma and my mom's fried liver, that's pretty good.

I feel like you'd like it and I'd still think you will at some point maybe hopefully enjoy an oyster and octopus, octopuses.

Melanie Avalon
I feel more hopeful for liking the octopuses, which is the correct plural form because I haven't had it yet. So maybe I'll like it.

But oysters vary. I've had them now twice, twice, two times, but I'm going to try them a third time.

Barry Conrad
Do you know that there's not a food that I can, I promise you, there's not a food at the top of my head that I've had. That you don't like. Yeah, I'm serious.

I'm trying to think. There's stuff I like better, but.

Melanie Avalon
Well, have you had liver just prepared like in the like I did?

Barry Conrad
But that could have been the user's fault, not the...

Melanie Avalon
Use me going back to my theory, my theory here. It's like saying like. I'm gonna write a book about this.

Barry Conrad
It's like a cooked chicken for you guys. How come you don't like it? It's like, well, it's not the chicken. It's the way you cook the chicken.

Melanie Avalon
See, that's the thing that, you know, that is big. That is what's not victim blaming. That is guest letting that is it's, it's, it's a lot of things.

Barry Conrad
No, I'm sorry. I'm half kidding.

Melanie Avalon
It's a gas plating. It's not taking responsibility. It's a bit yeah, it's An injury the food should taste

Barry Conrad
What okay when i when we finally do meet in person and if you if you ever have me over or you're at a place where you can cook somewhere. Why don't we get that liver will chuck it in the oven and i will i'll have it doesn't sound great though the way you describe doesn't sound yummy i'll have it though.

Melanie Avalon
You can try this on your own before we meet, just go buy some liver and then put it in the oven and then taste it and then come back and tell me there's no food that I don't like.

Barry Conrad
I'm gonna cook it, if I do it in here, I'm gonna go like 180 to 200 degrees, like, for 40 minutes, like, like, I'm gonna cook the heck out of that, so it's just in case, cuz I don't know, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I mean that I'd probably like if I like if I just turned it into yeah

Barry Conrad
Cha!

Melanie Avalon
actually this act this is this not just to further color my theory a little bit more this is actually something when I write my book I'm gonna have a chapter on this because this actually conflicts with my theory and I haven't been able to figure it out I have a get well granted I haven't done a lot of effort trying to figure it out but every time I cook something like my steak or whatever chicken I reflect on how people love that charred taste and I do too tastes great and it's not good for you so that that that is that messes my theory up a little bit I don't know why that is I don't know why we like that flavor because that what that flavor is just basically carcinogens like why do we like that

Barry Conrad
Oh, whoa. So what you're saying is when, for example, like in South Africa, we call it a braai, which is like a barbecue and we really char our meat. Like, you know, really barbecue that thing.

So that's bad to have.

Melanie Avalon
And it tastes so good. And that char is basically just, it's just, yeah, it's carcinogenic compounds. It's denatured proteins and advanced glycation end products. And it's all the problems with meat is a lot of it, not all of it, but a lot of the problems are how you cook it.

Barry Conrad
Okay, now I'm...

Melanie Avalon
Am I ruining your experience of barbecue?

Barry Conrad
my head's spinning now because I always just thought, well, it's just meat. How can you really mess that up?

It's you just you're cooking it in its own fat. If it gets a bit burnt or charred, like, yeah, that's like very camp style, like you're camping. And it's like, you know, oh, wow. Mind blown.

Melanie Avalon
The proteins become denatured. They cross-link. They form these advanced glycation end products. It basically creates compounds that are carcinogenic.

But they taste so good, which, again, doesn't fit my theory. So I gotta think about this.

Barry Conrad
This is a really good conversation. I actually had no idea about this until now, so thanks for.

Melanie Avalon
Really? Oh my goodness. This makes me happy.

Yeah. And you know what's really helpful about this conversation? It makes me realize, like, this is so... And I'm not saying that people should know this, but I am so aware of this. So for example, when I wrote my book, Watlin Wine, available on Amazon, we were creating the recipes and I worked with this amazing person, Arianna Resnick, and she created the recipes. And I was like, you got... She was so sweet putting up with me because I was like, we have to cook all of this stuff at like super low temperatures. And she was like... I was like, do whatever you gotta do, but that salmon, we gotta cook, you know, below this temperature. Well, that's another thing that really gets messed up with high temperature. So when you cook like salmon, for example, at higher temperatures, that... Those Omega 3s, which are very delicate and heat sensitive, so good for you, they quickly oxidize. They're cooked. So it can turn them from these super anti-inflammatory supportive fats to inflammatory fats in your body.

Barry Conrad
What about smoked Timon? Well, that's just because it's just cold, right?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, smoking also has, yeah, yep, smoking. Not, yeah, not good. Oh my God.

Barry Conrad
I've been I've been smashing the smoked salmon. I've been smashing the smoked trout. I've been Doing all the thing like ah

Melanie Avalon
What? So, so ideally you would cook everything low and slow. So cook it longer at lower temperatures, even chicken. So like chicken I cook at low temperatures and I just cook it longer.

Barry Conrad
Okay so Mel, I feel like you're gonna have to do like a cooking masterclass or like a something with Mel, like a class where everyone's in the kitchen. Okay everyone, this is how long and just like take everyone through how to do it because I had no idea about these different measures like different, you know, degrees you had to cook things out.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So you don't want the, you don't want the high heat. So for example, like you'll go to a steakhouse and they'll have like broiled steaks in the broiler with like the, you know, yeah, not good. Don't get that.

That cooks at like 400 something degrees. You don't want, you do not want

Barry Conrad
What about searing? Or if they're just searing, cause that's, it's got to be pretty hot to see the, the steak, you know?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it also can create the so like the ideal situation would be Yeah, like what like I said low and slow. Oh man mind blown.

Yeah, grill it. Yeah, so you want to avoid Oh, yeah, these these advanced here. Here's how you know advanced glycation and products. I keep mentioning them Literally The science community. I think the science community is like so cool Like they're very nerdy not to make I don't know they're very smart They're very nerdy but then every now and then they do really like Not okay. How do I I'm not trying to bash the science community? I like how they make decisions for naming things, which is like a wink-wink So literally that they came up with advanced glycation and product which is this carcinogenic toxic compound created by high heat with Protein because the acronym is age ages AGES Because it ages you And I was on purpose I didn't think it was on purpose but it was on purpose it's aging crazy, right?

Barry Conrad
It is crazy. Wow, this episode's already taken a turn I didn't expect in a good way.

Melanie Avalon
Me too. So if we're gonna talk about safe cooking methods, if that will be helpful. So like I said, low and slow. So like I cook my chicken, I like to cook it at like 270 for a long time.

Barry Conrad
It's a long time, like what, like 50 minutes or something or longer.

Melanie Avalon
I use a convection oven, so a convection oven is great because it just uses warm air and it circulates it so you get even cooking throughout and you can do lower temperatures. So I started at 270 and then I actually drop it down to like 210 pretty quickly.

You can do, so like an Instapot, so if you're doing like a pressure cooking, that's great because that also cooks with pressure and it cooks very low temperatures and cooks things. We have our sponsor, Harvest Right, which it's actually not cooking, it's freeze drying, but so I guess that's a little bit different, but that's really great for preserving food and that doesn't lose any of the nutrients, which is really great.

I'll actually give a, yeah, so listeners for that, they can go to harvestsright.com and so if you're using like grilling, you want to avoid as much as possible because of the grill aspect, but if you are grilling, try not to just completely, you know, overdo it, lower temperatures for everything when possible.

Barry Conrad
I feel like this episode should be called the cooking episode or low and slow. Low and slow. That's great. Thanks for sharing that, Mel.

Melanie Avalon
No, thank you. And thank you.

Like I said, this is really helpful for me because I guess I just assume it's common knowledge because I'm so enmeshed in it and I haven't for so long. So I don't realize that people don't know this. So this is really, really helpful for me to know.

Barry Conrad
I feel like a lot of people maybe don't realize this, so it's really useful that you shared it for sure.

Melanie Avalon
Is it going to change your cooking habits? Or are you just going to feel bad now? But it's not my intention, not my intention.

Barry Conrad
Like you're like, no, no, that's wrong. That's wrong.

That's wrong. I'm not, I'm not going to, I'm definitely going to be more aware. I'm not someone that can ignore once I know the new information, I'll definitely be more mindful about it and like, Oh, well, I'm not going to cook it like that, or if I know something's prepared a certain way, at least I'll know, but I'm not going to feel bad, but still be aware of it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so another reason when you're at the restaurant, for example, to order like medium rare rare or something well done. You're just Advanced glycation and producting that whole steak potentially

Barry Conrad
I don't, and I'm, you know what, please don't at me or be mad at us, everyone, but I don't understand well done orders. I don't understand people who get things well done because it's, I do understand the concept of like cooking the goodness out of something.

It's like, well done. That's what that means to me. You know what I mean? I can, I can recognize that.

Melanie Avalon
You can re- wait, you can recognize, wait, hooking, oh, you can recognize the, wait, you can recognize what you believe. Is that what you're saying? Like you can recognize not getting well done.

Barry Conrad
Well, meaning like, you know, when someone says well done to me that says, oh, well, you're just cooking the you're cooking everything great out of it. So why would you? Why would you do? Well done?

Like you gotta so I do recognize that even though I didn't know the, you know, what temperature to cook things out. Like, I recognize well done. It's too extreme.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so you weren't a fan of Well Done Before, but you didn't realize that there was also a health aspect to it. You just thought it was, you thought about it from the perspective of you're cooking out the flavor and the...

Barry Conrad
Yeah, and just the new and the nutrients to look at the nutrients. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. Yeah, okay. So like nutrient loss, but you didn't realize that it's also adding in problems

Barry Conrad
Exactly. There we go.

Melanie Avalon
I can understand because when I was little, I wanted everything well done. And I guess it's because it grossed me out.

Barry Conrad
because it looked too bloody.

Melanie Avalon
I guess so. And I thought it tastes, you know, it goes back to that taste thing though. Like, again, why do we like this cooked taste? I guess we like cooked taste because it makes the calories more accessible. Like cooking allowed us to break, you know, get calories from food that we couldn't prior to cooking. So that makes sense.

So maybe, maybe I'm fixing my theory right now. Maybe the chardness says like cooked to us. So maybe that's why evolutionarily we like it because it says like cooked. So it says, Oh, we can get more from this because we're cooking it. That would actually make sense. I should speak to some anthro evolutionarily, evolutionary, anthro, whatever people.

Barry Conrad
It's actually a really, really interesting topic now for real, because that evolution really, how did we know? Like even back then, oh, it's ready, it's cooked, it's sufficient to eat. And like it's, you know, that's like, what was the signal back then? There was no temperature. There was no, it was probably just by the look or the taste of it. So yeah, there we go.

Crazy.

Melanie Avalon
And actually to that point, it's really interesting because a lot of the stuff in the Old Testament and the Bible, a lot of the religious rules surrounding food, like don't eat this food and don't eat this food, it's probably because it kept the food safe. It's positioned as the food is not clean or not holy, which can be likely true.

And at the same time, it also would protect from pork, for example, which is very susceptible to parasites. So don't eat pork.

Barry Conrad
I do like pork belly though I do like I haven't had bacon in ages but I do I love New Zealand bacon specifically cuz it's just the produce is so good. It's not just stringy dingy hotel buffet breakfast bacon which is not real bacon you know I mean.

Melanie Avalon
Yes, bacon is... And that's actually another example that messes up my theory. Oh, which, by the way, when I said don't eat pork, I wasn't saying don't eat pork, I was saying that's like a religious tenet.

Barry Conrad
Interesting the bacon situation

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, but bacon, I also another food when I eat it, I ponder because it goes against my theory, literally like this theory is a theory I've had for a long time and I think about. And it's bacon is literally fat. Like, why does everybody love bacon so much? Because I remember I had bacon recently, not recently, it was probably last year, but I hadn't had it in a long time.

And I cook some and I was like, oh my goodness, like this is just like divine tasting. And why does everybody feel that way about bacon? Like, why? When it's pretty much fat and a little bit of protein. Yeah, I want to know like, what is the bacon factor? Like why evolutionarily do we love bacon so much?

Barry Conrad
That's a good headline, by the way, for an article or blog. What's the bacon factor?

Melanie Avalon
What's the bacon factor and I need to be writing all this down. This is like so much good content of things to do cooking masterclass bacon factor my theory about evolutionary cravings low and slow.

Barry Conrad
Well, I think this, these are, yeah, this is a, yeah, all these things we got to explore because I think it's, it's really interesting. And the bacon thing. Like everyone. Loves being.

Melanie Avalon
Like who does have you ever met somebody who doesn't like bacon? That's actually a good question

Barry Conrad
not many, not many people. It's so good.

It's just so crunchy and it's all yeah also my experience with bacon is very different like the bacon in South Africa and New Zealand and Australia it does taste different to Europe and to America so I guess it depends it's got to be like right it can't just be like crispy charred bits it has to have not just fat it has to have meat in there too you know oh now I'm hungry

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I know. So I'm trying to decide the autophagy study. Should we go ahead and do the question? Because we had a question about autophagy. Should we do that one? Let's do it. Okay.

Barry Conrad
Susan asks she goes hey Melanie i have to admit i haven't listened for a long time due to my schedule i'm lucky and work from home so i don't have a commute. I need to find another way to listen i listen to the other day on a short road trip and i realized how much i missed it i'm really out of the loop on the latest with research and need your help.

In this episode you had a different co host and before and she was leaving and it was a q and a time with her she answered one of the questions that now the studies show color restriction and i have both had the same benefits. There are no additional benefits of i have i was like what my husband has been telling me for that that for a long time as you see studies but i held on to the police that i have triggers autophagy. I've kept an autoimmune disease at bay for years and i credit mainly my secret weapon recipe of green smoothies where i put everything under the sun in it. But also i've done i have for five plus years i have is the only thing that works for me to manage my weight so i will continue to do it regardless however i might not be so strict on a clean fast if i can accomplish the same goals with color restriction.

My only change would be that i have my bone broth chocolate protein milk coffee first thing if it really doesn't make a difference i typically do sixteen eight please do a show with the quick four on one on the latest studies of autophagy and i have. We all know most of the other benefits will be accomplished with just color restriction but i really wonder about autophagy thank you and i appreciate you and your show so much so i'll find a new routine to listen.

Thank you susan she also says ps i try to dive into the research and i get lost so that is why i appreciate your show and your honesty so much and then she provides an article here. She goes this article included is one that seems to link i have to talk to you but doesn't really have to be clean faster accomplices now question mark melanie what do you think.

Melanie Avalon
All right, so heavy question. And Susan, thank you so much for being back with us. Yay. This is the ongoing debate. And I think it will be an ongoing debate for a long time.

There are a lot of people out there that say the entirety of the benefits of fasting are just due to calorie restriction. And then there's the camp that says, no, they're different things. I feel pretty strongly. I believe they are different things. What I mean by that is, I think calorie restriction and fasting activate very similar, if not the same, pathways and mechanisms. But they're doing it through their own way. So fasting does create calorie restriction. So you get the benefits of calorie restriction. And at the same time, you also get these benefits during the fasted state, even when you are coming out of not a calorie restricted state. So there's something different there. There are different pathways creating similar goals and effects. That said, people do not find it easy. Okay, so for one, people do not find it easy to just stick to calorie restriction. It's a miserable and a very high fail rate. It's just not like in all the studies on people trying to adhere to calorie restriction long term does not look good. People do not stick to it. It's hard to maintain your weight loss. It's not sustainable for most people.

Fasting, on the other hand, opposite situation. Studies consistently find that people can stick to it consistently. So even if the only reason you're getting benefits from fasting is because it automatically makes you calorie restricted without meaning to, well, I mean, hey, that's actually pretty cool because that's one of the main problems with calorie restriction. But at the same time, it's not that because there's been studies on fasting and non calorie restricted approaches and people still get these benefits. On top of that, there are all these benefits to the fasted state that are not so much about just the food per se is just the fasted state activates these things. So like autophagy, like we're talking about, and I talked about this study earlier about autophagy on the liver, and I'll talk about a few other ones about autophagy in general. But so what's interesting is, okay, she's saying, I might not be so strict on a clean fast if I can accomplish the same goals with calorie restriction. So does that mean you're going to fast but you're going to not fast clean and then you're going to calorie restrict? Because that's not going to be very sustainable. Like if you're trying to, if what you want to do, and maybe this will work for you, but it sounds like right now, what you're doing is you're fasting, not intentionally calorie restricting, but fasting clean. And now you're wondering, could you not fast clean and calorie restrict? Because she says, if I can accomplish the same goals with calorie restriction, if you want to do calorie restriction, I mean, whatever floats your boat, if that is easier for you to just stick to calorie restriction and not fast clean, if that's easier for you, and it's nutritious for you, go for it.

Melanie Avalon
In general, the studies don't find that people, that that's people's experience. And the not fasting clean is actually probably just going to mess with your appetite and make you have more cravings, which will make the calorie restriction even harder. So I wouldn't suggest that.

Like fasting is really magical. One reason it's really magical is you can eat all the things, you know, not have to calorie restrict and fast and then get the benefits, which is really, really amazing. To color it out more about autophagy. So we talked about that study about autophagy in the liver. Some other just quick studies. So there was a study, a recent study from 2025, published in Mitophagy and Health and Disease. The article is called Fasting Mitophagy and Aging. It actually, it talks about how fasting in particular activates mitophagy, which mitophagy is a special type of autophagy that works with the mitochondria. And the mitochondria are the powerhouses of our cell. They're how our bodies create energy. They are so, so important. And their functioning is so key for longevity and combating aging and chronic disease.

And so a special type of mitophagy helps get rid of dysfunctional mitochondria and help you build new mitochondria. And that's called mitophagy. So fasting does that. And then there's a study called, oh, this is actually the one she gave us. I found it as well. And we've actually covered this on another show. And it was about, it's called the beneficial and adverse effects of autophagic response to calorie restriction and fasting. I don't remember when we talked about this, but basically it talks about autophagy can potentially be a double-sided sword in that if you have too much or not enough, it can be a problem. If it goes, if it's like a defective, excessive form of autophagy, that actually is not protected for the cells. That's why I think it's really helpful to, rather than like chase autophagy, like all the autophagy all the time, just get the natural amount of autophagy that you will get from an intermittent fasting protocol.

And then it's like the best of both worlds. This would be another reason you might not wanna combine intermittent fasting and calorie restriction, because then you might go into the world of like too much autophagy. One other quick study, this is called Dontadusk Intermittent Fasting. It's associated with overexpression of autophagy genes, a prospective study on overweight and obese cohort. And this study actually found that fasting helped support and modulate genes that upregulate autophagy. And this was seen in people who were fasting from Dontadusk. And then, okay, but yeah, the conclusion of that, so this was people in Ramadan, and they found that four weeks, four consecutive weeks of Dontadusk Ramadan type fasting was associated with the upregulation of autophagy gene expression, particularly in people who are overweight or obese, and that this may actually explain in part the favorable effects on our metabolism and aging-related markers.

Melanie Avalon
So that's amazing. They say IF presumably may entail a protective impact against early markers of aging and metabolic disease in participants with overweight or obesity. Yeah, so basically there's a ton of studies on the benefits of fasting with autophagy, and there's a lot of other studies for other pathways and mechanisms as well from fasting and not necessarily in the context of calorie restriction. So it's an ongoing debate.

I do think there's benefits to fasting separate from calorie restriction, and I wouldn't write off fasting because you can, quote, get the same benefits just from calorie restriction, unless you want to calorie restrict for the rest of your life, which I don't want to do that. Barry, what are your thoughts?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I mean, you hear this all the time. And I, I see this a lot online, especially, especially with personal trainers and nutritionists and people trying to prescribe a certain way of eating. And they say, well, intermittent fasting is just cutting calories. And that's all they dismiss it as.

And I just don't agree. And the science agrees with that, you know, like it supports that. And I think, still, if you're wanting to maximize, like your goals, I would I would say that clean fasting still wins, especially in the long run. And I think with with windows, like 1820 1820 hours, I think that's really good as well. And I think, you know, like you've got you've got real world feedback, meaning like, you know, that the clean fast works for you. And that real world feedback, you know, you could experiment with relaxing for your window with your window a bit and stuff like that. But if you're already doing well, don't, I would suggest not throwing the baby out with the bone broth just yet, kind of thing like, you know, you already know it works for you.

And it's just not the same thing. And as Mel said, as well, messing with your appetite, eating throughout the day, little bits of small, you know, calorically, like low calorie foods and stuff, you're going to have all these spikes throughout the day. It's not a great feeling doing that. Don't listen to what, you know, people are sensationalizing online, especially like, you know, it's just calorie restriction. I just don't agree. And the science supports that like, stick to it, you know, that it works. You're gonna, as we said in a, I think last week, sure. It's normal to have periods where you feel, Oh, am I progressing? Am I not losing any more weight? Am I plateauing? These, this is just part of being a human being as well.

It's not just one plus one equals two. That's not the way our bodies work. So trusting what works for you most of the time is really important. And looking at the general trend rather than day to day and and being and allowing that to panic you really trusting what you've already done. I really recommend that Susan.

Melanie Avalon
You heard it here first. Don't throw out the baby with a bone broth. Mary Conrad. Oh man. I was like, he snuck that in there. I love that you just like said it and like kept going.

Barry Conrad
Try to make it a moment.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that was like the perfect like non-moment moment on the show, oh my goodness.

Barry Conrad
That's hilarious.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah.

Also, it's like I really genuinely mean this to people.

Like you do you.

Like if whatever floats your boat, like do that.

And I really believe everything we're saying.

Like I really do think it'll be more beneficial, easier, sustainable, better effects going this route of the fasting and especially if it's been working.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I mean, as well, like, you know, once, once food's coming in, that internal cleanup crew, they're out. They're signing off for the day.

So why risk that? Just, you know, I don't know. And I think as well, I've said this to many people, and some people don't believe me, but I really do think and not think I know that I, if I had to count, and I've actually done this just for fun before, if I had to like, count how many calories I had a day or in a meal. Now versus pre intermittent fasting, I eat so much more now. And I'm so much leaner now and my body just looks completely different. The only thing that's changed. I've always trained. I've always worked out since I was 15. That's never changed. The only thing that's changed is intermittent fasting. So how does that make sense if it's just cutting calories? So yeah, I stand by it.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And what people will say, they'll be like, well, you actually are eating less and you just don't realize it. But I feel like Barry, you put back a lot of food.

Barry Conrad
I really do are really really doing people don't believe it to actually eat with me and then like oh wow you actually you know you're not playing around.

Melanie Avalon
Yup. Okay. Shall we break our proverbial fast, which may or may not include, wait, what is the word?

Barry Conrad
Take the station.

Melanie Avalon
Degas station. Why can I not remember this word? I'm still really shocked

Barry Conrad
that you don't know it.

Melanie Avalon
I probably am going to see it on a menu somewhere pretty soon.

Barry Conrad
I reckon your parents know it for sure, because they eat out at 11 last places too, right? They would know a digestation.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, they probably would. I really don't know why it's been missing from my life.

Barry Conrad
Well, you don't like tasting menus, so that tracks. It's fun.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it does. So Barry, do you have a restaurant for us and for listeners?

The purpose of this section of the show is because, and actually this relates to Susan's question a little bit, so much of the benefits from fasting are not just from the fast, but it's from that eating period when you're actually nourishing your body and you're stimulating all of these pathways that are helping to rebuild your body, not in a calorie restricted state. So we love honoring that and we love showcasing restaurants and talking about what we would order at the restaurant when we break our fast for our one meal a day. So Barry, what restaurant do you have picked out for us this time?

Barry Conrad
So the restaurant that I've got this week is called Commander's Palace in New Orleans, USA. And I'll just flick you the link now, have a look at that. So this joint, it's been a landmark since 1893, nestled beneath oaks of the historic Garden District with signature teal and white striped awning. It's renowned for its hot Creole cuisine, perfect blend of rich southern flavor and French finesse. And it's had like multiple James Beard Awards, outstanding restaurant, best chef. It offers a 25 cent martinis at lunch, which is pretty dangerous, keeping the experience playful and elegant. And a meal here apparently feels more like a celebration of New Orleans itself, rich in flavor, music and unmistakable energy. So I chose it for those reasons.

So let's get into it.

Melanie Avalon
I feel like you're a New Orleans fan. Why do you say that? I think you've had a few restaurants now from New Orleans, I think. Have you? At least one.

Barry Conrad
Yeah and i've only been there one time but it was enough like when when it's had that much of an impact on me it was really amazing it's such an amazing place.

Melanie Avalon
How long were you there for?

Barry Conrad
I was there for like maybe four days, so enough to take in some of the just touristy stuff. I was mainly there working, but it was so culturally rich and the people were so happy.

I remember that. And the food is amazing, like so good, so unusual. The flavors are great. Yeah, it really impacted me because I obviously keep referencing it now. So I'd love to go back again, actually.

Melanie Avalon
It's crazy to me that I haven't been there.

Barry Conrad
I think you'd like it. I think actually I think you'd love it.

And also it'd be a real adventure to all find some stuff that you'd like restaurant wise, because there's a lot of there's a lot of sources, a lot of flavors and things like that, the way they cook is quite unique. But yeah, like the live music scene over there is so vibrant, like it's such a vibe. Every other like bar or whatever has like these incredible musicians playing. So you just feel like you're in a film set. Like it's crazy. It's amazing.

Melanie Avalon
And it's open container policy right you can just walk out did I tell you about the conversation we have my mom few months ago no my mom did not realize that you can't in most places just have alcohol outside it was a wild conversation.

Barry Conrad
You can't, like she didn't think that?

Melanie Avalon
No, she yeah, yeah, this was like it was a mind blowing conversation. It was me and my sister and my mom and we were talking about I think probably New Orleans or something or I think we were talking I don't know what we're talking about.

We're talking about somewhere where You can just I think probably Vegas maybe Yeah, and she didn't know that you can and literally we were like mom like you can't just like Go outside here in Atlanta with your open drink. She had no idea I don't know how she grew up her whole life and missed that memo

Barry Conrad
Well, I think it's good for her that obviously she's gotten away with it so far. She just, you know, obliviously, it's good.

Melanie Avalon
I know. You can't even have it in your car, Mom.

Yeah. I mean, not that you should be drinking dry. My point is like, you can't even like, if you leave a restaurant, you know, you technically can't even have like a half wine bottle that you bring home with you.

Barry Conrad
It doesn't stop. I mean, it doesn't stop some people here, especially on like a, you know, Thursday to Saturday nights, you'll find, you know, mainly like teenagers and like, whatever, like just walking with beer bottles and stuff.

It doesn't stop people when they're drunk, but you're not supposed to.

Melanie Avalon
It's more a little bit more lack so maybe.

Barry Conrad
I feel like some cops probably let it go because there's just so many, you know, hooligans and stuff. But it's not meant. Yeah, it's illegal, but people do it.

Melanie Avalon
Well back to New Orleans where it is legal, okay, so oh is it is this a

Barry Conrad
You know what let's skip past that because i know that you're looking at the top there let's go to this because there's a one twenty five per person thing we're not we're not doing that so let's just go to the.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, wait, so would that be a de luke? I'm not, I'm never gonna remember this word.

Barry Conrad
No. Degestation? No, that's not really.

Melanie Avalon
How can I remember this? Okay, so disgusting, disgusting, de-gust-ation.

Barry Conrad
DEG just degg is it a degg menu degg degg i don't think that's really degg because it's to me it's also one twenty five not really the price for digger stations way more usually and that doesn't seem decadent or. Like important enough so let's go down to the starters section and go from there.

Melanie Avalon
And I have a mental block against Degas station. You know, like sometimes there's just like, I shouldn't be able to remember this word and I just can't, but I'll work on it.

Degas station. Okay. Starters. Um, okay. Do you know what you want? So yes.

Barry Conrad
There's quite a few options.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Oh, they have Gulf oysters. Surprise, surprise. I feel like every restaurant we go to, we have to get the oysters. So you can attempt to convince me to like oysters.

Barry Conrad
Well, you'll see my pleasure in consuming them and you'd be like, you know what, maybe Barry's right, I'm just going to do it and then you'll convert.

Melanie Avalon
possibly. I'm open-minded, probably not. I'm gonna get the remoulade roasted shrimp, which is broiled head-on wild white gulf shrimp drenched in spicy New Orleans style remoulade sauce with crayon cream cheese stone ground grits and pickled sweet peppers. So I'm gonna order that if they can just give me the broiled head-on wild white gulf shrimp plain and then they can put everything on the side so Barry can try it if he would like it.

Do you like head-on? This was on our restaurant last week. Do you like when the shrimp have the head on them or not?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I don't actually have a preference. Like it's totally fine. Like I don't get grossed. Some people get grossed out seeing it. I don't care. It's pretty good.

Melanie Avalon
at a restaurant and it's like the whole fish situation, how do you feel about that? Like if it has like the eyes and the brain and everything, how do you feel?

Barry Conrad
I don't care. I'm so used to seeing that some people hate that because they can see the you go stop by that or what.

Melanie Avalon
No, I love it. I actually I remember I was on a date once and I ordered like the full fish thing and he was convinced I was going to be grossed out by the brain. I was like, I'm excited. Let's get into that brain.

Get into it. Yeah. Yeah. I actually, that was an interesting experience because the brain, I actually, I thought I was going to love it. I thought it was going to be a bone marrow situation and it actually wasn't. I was kind of neutral. Like I didn't love it. And I actually had a little bit of an aftertaste. I didn't really like, but it also was doable. Does that make sense?

Barry Conrad
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
OK, what are you getting?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to get the Jerkspice Japanese Hokkaido Scallops, which is brown butter-basted tender scallops, crisp kohlrabi and poblano and Caribbean warm spice, crushed lemongrass, horrible tea, and the Gulf oysters and sutsama, pepper jelly, crispy corn fried Gulf oysters, and citrus salad over cauliflower and black truffle. Fluid.

That sounds really good. Those two sound good.

Melanie Avalon
And I will possibly taste the oyster. And I'll taste the scallops if they are, wait, brown butter. If they're not super like sauced up, sauced up, it's hard to tell.

Barry Conrad
Mel, if you scroll down, look at what's next, one of your favorite things.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, caviar service. I would love to try some caviar. Oh, they're all sustainably farmed. Which one would you want?

Barry Conrad
Do you like Blinney's? Do you say Blinney's in America? Blinney's.

Melanie Avalon
Aren't those like a pastry type thing?

Barry Conrad
They're kind of like if you picture like super baby miniature pancakes and you put the caviar on top of that.

Melanie Avalon
You know what I mean? Yeah, I do like them in theory, like in my mind.

Barry Conrad
So I would probably get the, I reckon because caviar is pretty easy to eat. I reckon one of each to try the enjoy all three. Yeah, there's enjoy all three.

One ounce gold pearl trout row, one ounce Siberian sturgeon, or set trial and one ounce California white sturgeon reserve. And I think that'd be quite delicious actually.

Melanie Avalon
You know what's weird about that, though?

Barry Conrad
What?

Melanie Avalon
So if you order them individually, it's cheaper. Wait.

Barry Conrad
That's actually true. Is it really?

Melanie Avalon
I think they somebody did the math wrong this is this menu it's literally cheaper to order them individually than the enjoy all three normally the enjoy all three would save you a little bit you know

Barry Conrad
Mm-hmm or what they do maybe they go enjoy all three and then maybe they'll throw like a little extra something something on there

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I don't think so.

Barry Conrad
to get in the bin for the doubt, Bill. Yeah, I don't think so.

Melanie Avalon
They also have a typo somewhere else, so I think we need to audit the menu.

Barry Conrad
Okay, wow, just like complain. Okay, yeah, enjoy all three. So we'll get that. So that's a good.

Melanie Avalon
No, we're not. No, we're going to get we're going to individually order because it's cheaper.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny. Are you gonna try any caviar or no?

Melanie Avalon
But yeah, yeah, I like caviar. It doesn't taste like oysters. It tastes like salty goodness.

Barry Conrad
I think Danny would probably like oysters, I'm gonna ask her about this.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, she does she like oysters? I think she does like oysters, actually, because the first time I had oysters was with Danielle and my dad in LA.

Yep, and I didn't like him. Yep, true story. So now we have soups and salads.

Barry Conrad
Mm-hmm. What are you what is tickling your fancy? What's jumping out at you?

Melanie Avalon
So they figured it out right here because here if you want to get oh, it's a tasting of all three soups. It's cheaper I'm I'm gonna pass on this section.

How about you? Oh, they have turtle soup. Wow, that's very authentic Can you get that and tell me how it is?

Barry Conrad
You know what, I'm definitely going to get that because it's something that you don't.

Melanie Avalon
has a veal.

Barry Conrad
Yeah you don't get that anywhere else so i'm gonna get the turtles for sure.

Melanie Avalon
Can you read the description?

Barry Conrad
The authentic Louisiana favorite with veal fond egg and crushed lemon, finished tableside with a splash of aged sherry. That sounds so good.

I love trying things that's native to the place, like, you know, just very, you know, signature them. I'm all for it.

Melanie Avalon
And I feel like I feel like you can't get turtle soup everywhere. I feel like kind of like you can't get kangaroo everywhere.

Barry Conrad
And if you do, it's not going to be the same.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, okay. So you're getting that one. Entrees. Entrees. And we get to use the word entree because that's the word they use. Did you like how last episode though, I just automatically said main and I didn't even like plan that. I just, you're rubbing off on me. Like I'm becoming Australian.

Okay. Entrees. Okay. Oh man. I actually, I know what I want. Do you know what you want? What do you get? I'm torn between two. Oh man. Unless I'm having an insane craving for pork, which does happen on occasion. Oh, I'm going to get the, this is appropriate for this episode. Char-grilled, but we're going to adjust. We're going to adjust that veal tinderloin, which is hand-carved milk fed veal over creole creams, cheese, stone ground grits. They love their grits here. With crispy crushed red pepper oven, dried kale crushed crawfish bisque. Oh my goodness. And cognac flambéed Louisiana crawfish tails. Whoa, wait, crawfish. I didn't know that was coming into the picture. Okay. So I will, does the other one come with crawfish? Okay. I would like the char-grilled veal tinderloin, not char-grilled, actually just rare, plain. I would love the crawfish tails also plain. And then can you put all the other stuff on the side, like the cream cheese, stone ground grits and the stuff, please.

Barry Conrad
It sounds good. I'm going to get the pier part crawfish and Texas redfish, which is I knew that I knew it how I just I just knew I'm going to get that.

Well, it's one or two. So I'm going to get that which is cognac because it's like local.

Melanie Avalon
You know, it's like a...

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I'm pretty game to try the local stuff. So Gongyak, Flambi, Louisiana, crawfish tails, and cast iron-seared redfish, with confit of butternut squash, caramelized shiitake mushrooms, ripped Swiss chard, merlotin, kimchi, and crawfish boil hollandaise, and then I'm also going to get a grilled cinna cut creeks stone farms belay.

Melanie Avalon
That was what i was debating between doing a split that we can split that are you down to get a plane with rare.

Barry Conrad
We could do that because I'm also gonna get some sides. So this is an eight ounce fillet of black angus beef with Creole smashed new potatoes, Haricot vert and mushroom fricasa and brandy green pepper gondemic glaze and I'm gonna order for my sides the garlic wilted spinach, tangy bacon and apple cider braised cabbage because that's different for me and then also definitely the Creole smashed new potatoes because I could do without the grits. I love potatoes and it's still Creole.

Are you not a grits fan? I do like grits but I feel like isn't there grits in yours? I feel like I'll have yours, you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, with my tenderloin. Yeah. Perfect.

Yeah, you can you can have the crits. We can like get them on like a separate plate and I'll just like pass it over to you. Do you like crawfish? Have you had crawfish?

Barry Conrad
I've actually never had crawfish ever before, so I'm really excited.

Melanie Avalon
I don't think I have either, actually. That's exciting.

Barry Conrad
It is exciting.

Melanie Avalon
No, like, I don't know that I know, okay, because I know like crawfish, is it more like is like shrimp or crab or yeah, they look like they're crustaceans. Like, I wonder if they taste like what they taste like, you know.

Barry Conrad
It tastes like what they sound like kind of thing.

Melanie Avalon
Like, yeah, well, do they taste more like lobster and they taste more like shrimp or they taste like crawfish?

Barry Conrad
I guess we'll have to find out. I also listen out there.

Grits is just not a thing in Australia. It's non-existent, not a thing. So I have had it though many times and I do like it. So I'm totally excited about having it here as well.

Melanie Avalon
It's also not a thing in the majority of the United States, mostly just the South. So I was raised on grits, like we were raised on grits.

Oh, and cheesy grits, oh man, don't get me started. So good, yeah.

Barry Conrad
Yum, okay, let's go down to, oh, wow, there's even there's more before there's a chef's makes three course offerings, which is like, what is that Mel?

Melanie Avalon
I'm confused wait what is this is a mate wait what is this this has quail I want quail I'm confused wait price of entree

Barry Conrad
All right, so what I'm seeing this as this is like a second addition to like a main situation. It's a set course thing. Yeah, exactly. Do you like that?

Melanie Avalon
we should, when we give them all the feedback about the menu, they should put this at the top because you get through the whole menu and you don't realize there's... Because at the top, they have a pairing menu that's multiple courses, 125 per person. They should put this at the top too so people understand the multi-course set price situation.

I agree. I'm just saying. I'm sad though because they have, so shrimp and grits, and then Maggie's mushroom vault event, but then they have a painted Texas quail which I would like to try quail, although it's stuffed so maybe not.

Barry Conrad
Maybe not, because they probably can't unstuff it. They'll be like, it comes how it comes. We can't change it. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so maybe we just skip this section, yeah.

Barry Conrad
So now we'll go on to the desserts, so I'm curious to see.

Melanie Avalon
Desserts. Okay.

Well, for my dessert, I'm going to get... Honestly, it's going to be whatever I liked the most from before I might get around to of. Maybe I can request the quail as a plain quail. They can just give me some quail, plain. Yeah, maybe. They could probably do that. So what would you get for dessert?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to get the, I'm going to get a couple things. I'm going to get the Creole cream cheese, Creole cream cheese cheesecake, which is house-made Creole cream cheese cheesecake with a honey gram, graham crust, chocolate, lattice, and sticky caramel sauce.

And then I'm also going to get the Ponchatula strawberry shortcake, which is the first of the season Louisiana strawberries over a warm fluffy buttermilk biscuit, oh yum, with powdered sugar, sweet strawberry and puree and chintilly cream. Ah, this, this looks so good.

Melanie Avalon
must be ordered 20 minutes in advance. Also something that should be put at the beginning of the menu.

So people are like aware that they need to... I'm a fan. I'm excited to go here. Okay. Awesome. Do they have a...

Barry Conrad
This should do. Let me have a look there. Let's have a look at the menus.

Let's go down to, oh here we go, cocktails and wine programs. Let's go to the wine program first and look at the wine list to see if Melanie Evelyn sees anything that, maybe you might see something you like there. Oh wow, look at all these awards they've had.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, so just looking again, very briefly, because basically my protocol... Oh, I love when they organize it by type. So like light and fruity, medium-bodied, full-bodied, sweet and sticky. I love this.

So I would go... I would look at the light and fruity red wines and then I would look up these different wineries and figure out if there's one that's organic. But just looking at it really quickly, they have a Gamay, a Beaujolais French light and fruity. If that one is organic, that's probably what I would go for because that's one of my favorite parietals from one of my favorite places. That sounds great. How about you?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to go for the indigenous Pinot Grigio Venizi IGT Italy. So I'll probably get a bottle of that for the table.

And then I'm going to go to the cocktail menu, which is where? They were cocktails. And I'm going to have a look at that real quick. See what we got. Okay. I'm going to get the, maybe the tequila mochi. The fuzzy buffalo. Actually, yeah, maybe your tequila mochi is not really my thing. The fuzzy buffalo bourbon basil peach lemon. That sounds pretty good, I reckon. So that, and then the bottle of Pinot Grigio to sip on throughout. Awesome.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, good find. How did you find this, by the way? I'm curious. Did you Google like New Orleans or

Barry Conrad
Yeah, definitely. And I like to kind of like, not find just generic, like, you know, I don't think any of us have been generic, but I'd like to try to see what's interesting.

There's any fun facts about it. And then also see if there's a good wine list oysters on the menu, of course. So you can comment on that.

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm. I like to I'm looking at their main site.

I like that they They have farm raised products Their dirt to plate within 100 miles policy means they strive for 90% of ingredients to come from within 100 miles up their back door I love that

Barry Conrad
That is awesome.

Melanie Avalon
Awesome, well, good find. Well, this was so, so fun. This was like the cooking episode, like the food episode.

Barry Conrad
I know, I love that though.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, me too. So listeners, we hope you enjoyed coming along with us for the ride.

If you have your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast.com slash episode 433. That will have links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are ifpodcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and Barry is Barry underscore Conrad. So I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?

Barry Conrad
Thank you so much for tuning in everyone. Talk to you next week, Melanie. Have an amazing week, everybody.

Melanie Avalon
and a happy move to you.

Barry Conrad
I know. Next time we have the show, I'll be in Melbourne.

Melanie Avalon
Crazy. All right. Well, I will talk to you next week

Barry Conrad
Okay, talk to you soon. Bye.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Jul 28

Episode 432 – Fasting And Wisdom Teeth Recovery, Fasting And Cancer Cells, Type 2 Diabetes Remission, Blood Sugar Spike Problems, Addressing A Weight Loss Lull, Eating Too Early Or Too Much, Getting Ready For An Event, And More!

⁠Role of Intermittent Fasting In Starving Cancer Cells⁠

Welcome to Episode 432 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 432 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 432 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today? How are you recovering?

Barry Conrad
Melanie what's up how's it going hey everyone thanks for tuning in. Everyone if you not knowing what we're talking about melanies asking how i'm recovering because i've just had my two bottom wisdom teeth yanked out.

A few days ago not too long ago so i'm not gonna lie it's it was a situation it was very very painful and lots of force and i was awake the whole time. Lots of thoughts about this cuz melanie didn't you say you like you should try to ask them if they what was the thing the laughing gas situation.

Melanie Avalon
I have so many questions already. Number one, I feel like, wait, OK, OK, I remember you said you're doing it awake. Is that normal? I feel like normally people get that twilight anesthesia stuff.

Barry Conrad
I feel like Americans, you Americans just have this luxury of just like being knocked out for everything. I did actually ask them, I said, hey, one of my friends said that I need to ask, do you have like nitrous?

And the guy was like, hahaha, actually, we just run out. I'm like, oh, awesome.

Melanie Avalon
What you said my friend told me to ask.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, I actually did say that.

Melanie Avalon
I told Barry, I was like, who put me on the phone with them? I'll talk to them. I'll be like, listen, he needs nitrous.

Barry Conrad
I was tempted to call you, actually. I was actually tempted to call you right there. I was like, oh, is this weird? I was about to. And then I was like, ah, maybe she'll think this is a lot, like being put on blast like that.

Melanie Avalon
Oh no, I would have loved that. What time was it my time?

Barry Conrad
This was like, by the time I got in there, I think it was like 4.20 PM my time, so that's probably like, it's pretty late your time, because now it's like 10 AM my time. So it's pretty late.

Melanie Avalon
So, okay, wait, 11, 12, so like six hours later, then now 9, 10, 11, 12, 1, oh, but I was awake, so it would have been like 2 a.m.

Yeah. I would have had my wine, yeah, next time. Hopefully there's not next time, but next time, call me.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, hopefully there's no

Melanie Avalon
It's not a next time melody. But you know what I would have thought? I would have been so excited.

I would have thought that you were calling me on the – oh, wait, no, but I knew you weren't having anesthesia. Never mind. I would have a moment thinking that you were calling me like loopy. That'd be exciting.

Barry Conrad
I was hoping to do that, because that would have been funny, because then you could go, you don't remember, you don't remember this, Barry, but you were like really loopy, like you'd recall it and I'd be like, I don't remember, I was out of it, you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. That'd be amazing.

So, but you, so you were not put under, which by the way is better for your health because apparently, apparently anesthesia is like horrible for your body, like just horrible. So that's good that you don't have that to recover from, in addition to recovering from the situation. So no nitrous. I would have, I would have been like, I'm, I'll come back another day then if that's the case, I wish you had had it buried because it would have made it, it would have turned it into like the most fun experience ever.

Barry Conrad
Well, I feel like I believe that. And also one of a client of mine in America, she said the same thing when I said I just had a wisdom teeth extraction and she said, did you have all the things I'm like, what?

It's an American thing. It's not just Melanie, you all think that you get like this buffet.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, of things to make you feel, to not even make you feel better, make you feel great.

Barry Conrad
By the time, Melanie, by the time that they yanked it out, like he, there were, it was in pieces because it was so tough to get out.

They had to drill, smash, pull, yank.

I feel like they pulled my face and I was, I was awake.

So I had my headphones in the whole time listening to music, but I could still hear the drill going.

I could still hear them fussing over like what's going on.

It was pretty full on.

Melanie Avalon
I'm not going to lie. I'm not glad that you went through this.

I'm glad you're saying this because this further colors my argument, which is being in a stress state when something bad is happening to you is not good for the... Being in that nervous system state isn't really good for the trauma of it, from a health perspective. So I feel like it's not just about the pain relief and the loopiness of the nitrous. I feel like it actually is better for your body to be in a disinhibited state when things happen to you.

Barry Conrad
I agree. I actually do agree because while I was there, I remember thinking at some points during the process, is this actually bad that I feel? Because I caught myself feeling tensed or being tensed up. I'm like, is it bad that I'm not just surrendering to the process? Because even though I couldn't feel it technically, it's still, I was awake, so I didn't feel relaxed. So you're right.

If I was just kind of knocked out, your body can probably just let it happen and just deal with it. You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon
Exactly. And this is not the same thing at all. And I am not advocating this. And just to further prove this point, it's like how people who are drunk when they get into accidents, they don't suffer as many injuries usually because their body doesn't prep itself for the stress impact. And so they don't get as much of a negative effect. This has been studied.

The concept of it, so I'm not advocating being drunk and getting into accidents at all, that's horrible. The idea is basically that being in that stressed out mental state doesn't help anything for the stuff that's happening to you. I think as far as the implications of the effects and the recovery. So we just need to get to all the nitrous next time.

Barry Conrad
Well, I was going to get like another procedure done, but I'm not too sure if I'll have, we'll see how I go and see how I go, but if that does happen, I'll definitely have to be under for this next thing, but we'll see.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, another yeah.

Barry Conrad
Another situation like potentially on my leg, but we'll talk about that offline until it's TBC.

Melanie Avalon
Oh man, okay. Well, to bring this all to the topic of the show, listeners, Barry has been saying, just in case they're curious about how authentic Barry is in real life about these things, he has been telling me multiple times about his recovery and how much fasting is helping, right?

Barry Conrad
Absolutely. Because, well, the first 24 hours or so, it was pretty rough, but that's to be expected. But after that, even, I felt like really, really good, you know? And I think even like the dentist was saying that you're tracking really well. My mom, who's worked at the dentist before as well, she said you're tracking really well and recovering really fast.

And I can only attribute that to intermittent fasting. I kept up my fasting protocol during the process, leading up to during and after as well. And I feel good. And I feel like my body's pretty resilient. And this even thrown back to when I broke my ankle a while ago as well. Like, I recovered pretty quickly. And so I've got to put that down to my intermittent fasting. So it's not just about burning fat or autophagy or any of these things. It's also about recovery, you know? So I think there's so many benefits to intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon
It's so amazing. I cannot agree more.

It really makes me wonder, you know, if I had been following a healthier lifestyle, like when I got my wisdom teeth out back in the day, I feel like, I feel like the recovery process would have been better and I probably wouldn't have had as much inflammation and, and we're actually, we haven't recorded it yet. Coming up, we are going to have a special episode with a guest who works with surgery and we're going to talk all about fasting and surgery and recovery, which, which will be great because we get, we actually get a lot of questions about that.

Barry Conrad
That's awesome, very topical, right? Awesome, awesome.

And Mel, I was gonna ask, have you told the listeners, have you talked on the podcast about your wisdom teeth experience and what you had to do the day after?

Melanie Avalon
Have I? Was I telling you that on the show or in real life, like not on the show? Do you remember?

Barry Conrad
I don't know if it was actually on the podcast, but it's a pretty entertaining story though.

Melanie Avalon
don't remember.

Listeners haven't heard it.

I'll tell it again.

This is one of the things where, and I probably told you this when I told you, like to this day, I think my parents made the wrong decision in making me do this.

Like I don't think I should have had to do this, which was, I got my wisdom teeth out like berries.

Mine was actually all four.

They were impacted.

It was a whole like anesthesia situation.

And my sister's graduation from high school was the next day.

And I was actually in college.

So I had come back from college because you know, like when you haven't seen your friends from high school in a while, so it's like, you know, impressions matter.

And so it was going to be seeing like all the high school people.

And my parents made me go the day after my wisdom teeth removal.

And I looked like a chipmunk and it was in a church and I wore sunglasses inside the whole time.

And I hid like in the corner to this day.

I don't think I should have had to go to that.

Barry Conrad
Just the visual of that. It's very funny. I know it probably wasn't funny for you, but it was funny to think about it.

Melanie Avalon
I literally remember having on sunglasses and my mom being like, you can't wear those inside. And I was like, I have to wear these.

And then I hid in the gift shop. Cause like the church is also, side note, growing up, I always thought it was super weird that churches had gift shops.

Barry Conrad
I think so too, because now that I think about it, it is weird.

Melanie Avalon
I mean, I guess it makes sense if you're providing, I don't know, but that never really tracked with me when I was little. I was like, isn't this a little bit, didn't Jesus go to the temple because they were selling things at the temple and he got mad and he like turned over the tables?

I feel like that's a story in the Bible.

Barry Conrad
He definitely turned over the tables and I don't know if he'd be all about gift shops like hey, buy this, buy this, right?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, even though I love the gift shops because they would have like all the stuff and you can hide in them during graduation.

Barry Conrad
That's so funny. But also, you're right. That is really weird to think about, like, you know, selling books, selling CDs, selling little trinkets and stuff. It's weird.

Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm, but here we are now on the other side of things

Barry Conrad
And outside of gift shops, no hiding with your sunglasses on, and outside of weird gift shops and churches.

Melanie Avalon
But to this day, because I'm all about supporting and like I'm the type of person that would go to the graduation and I don't think parents I should have had to go to that like no, no, no, no, I was at a fragile time of adolescence of like social hierarchy circles mattering and looking like a chipmunk was not good for me.

Barry Conrad
That's very funny.

Melanie Avalon
But and I think we can talk next week where Barry and I also just had a really fun exciting call, but I think teaser we can tease it next week, maybe

Barry Conrad
That sounds good. Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
Cool, shall we jump into some fasting related things? Also, I'm sending you lots of good vibes that you will feel, 100% very soon.

Barry Conrad
I'm feeling it. Thank you so much for the good vibes. I receive it. Believe it. Take it awesome.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. So are you starting? Yeah, you have a study for us today?

Barry Conrad
Yes, I brought a study today and it is called the role of intermittent fasting in starving cancer cells. Now, we've heard a lot about this. I've read a lot about this over months and years even, just like, is this a thing? Is this even possible?

And the study I'm bringing is it was conducted by researchers from the Department of Biotechnology at the Government College University in Faisalabad, Pakistan. It was published in the journal Current Drug Targets and it explores how IF could actually support cancer treatment by disrupting the fuel supply that cancer cells depend on to grow and survive.

Melanie Avalon
Can you show me the title again of it?

Barry Conrad
the role of intermittent fasting in starving cancer cells. Perfect. Thank you. No worries. And what this paper really digs into is the difference between how healthy cells and cancer cells respond to stress, especially the kind that comes from fasting is the stress from the body. So cancer cells are sort of, in a sense, like metabolic machines. So they're constantly, they need glucose, they're always replicating, basically refusing to rest. Like, they don't want to chill, they just want to keep going. So they burn through energy fast, and that gives us an opening. So because when you limit glucose and insulin through fasting, you actually start to create an environment where those cells, they struggle to thrive.

So now the healthy cells, they don't respond the same way. They know how to slow down, conserve energy and protect themselves and food is scarce. And so this study email, it's referred to as like the differential stress resistance, which I've never read that before, which basically means healthy cells become more resilient under stress. And while cancer cells become more vulnerable, and that's exactly why I have and what I have promotes a kind of sort of biological edge for our body systems, while weakening the enemy. So the study, it highlights how fasting boosts our immune response. So specifically, it increases CDA T cells, and those babies are like our body's frontline cancer fighters. So they lower things like inflammation, which is massive. They make chemo more effective, the cancer cells become more sensitive to treatment, while healthy cells are better shielded.

So not only does fasting slow tumor progression, it also helps to reduce the side effects of chemo, which I've actually always wondered about. Because it can be controversial to just say like a blanket statement, fast while doing chemo or don't do fasting while doing chemo or intermittent fasting does this while doing chemotherapy because it's a big deal. And they also dive into fast fasting mimicking diets, which we talk about on the show as well. And for listeners who don't know what that is, those are sort of like low calorie, low protein plans that stimulate fasting, while still letting you eat a little bit. And in mouse studies, these diets are sort of like they slowed tumor growth, they improved survival, they reduced toxicity of treatment, again, like really good stuff. And again, like that said, as we always say, fasting, it's not for everyone, it's really important to consult your doctor during the treatment specifically, that's the context of what I'm saying here. And researchers are really clear about that. So people who are malnourished, for example, or really frail, really like elderly already underweight, have eating disorder issues, like they need to approach this with caution.

Barry Conrad
So that's something we've got to preface as well. But for those who can implement it safely, this study shows that intermittent fasting could be a really powerful companion to traditional therapies. And it's not just about weight loss, just as we talked about with the wisdom teeth situation, we're talking real cellular level support that could actually help the body fight back against cancer while preserving what's healthy. So yep, still early, more trials needed, but it's headed in a pretty exciting direction.

And Melanie, what do you think of the study?

Melanie Avalon
I love this so much. Thank you so much for finding it.

Yeah, so I've read before about fasting and cancer and it's really interesting because there's something called the Warburg Effect, which is basically that cancer cells. Dr. Jason Fung talks a lot about this and the Cancer Code, which is his book all about cancer. And interestingly, he doesn't actually talk about, I thought he would talk about fasting more than he does in that book because he's such a fasting legend, but it's more just about what actually causes cancer. But the Warburg Effect is essentially this finding that cancer cells, they preferentially burn glucose even in the presence of fatty acids. And even though it seems they actually can burn fatty acids, they choose to burn glucose. And so this idea of turning off that glucose as a source of fuel to cancer makes it a really viable way to actually starve those cancer cells while supporting the body, which is amazing. So it's basically like selectively targeting cancer while boosting the health benefits of your body, whereas something like chemo, which is really important and needed for people, it's attacking everything and attacking your body in the process, which is not ideal. I had read that before, actually way back when I wrote my book about how there were studies on fasting actually helping with the side effects of chemo because there are so many side effects to that. It's really just encouraging because cancer is such an overwhelmingly pervasive thing and we think anything we can do to help is so wanted.

And it's really great that there's this lifestyle tool that a lot of people can utilize. And I will say as a disclaimer, I think there's a few types of cancers that actually can feed on ketones. So obviously we're not saying all the people do fasting all the time for cancer, but just in general, these findings seem to be really supportive. So I love that you found that. And we will have already, by the time this comes out, we will have aired. We actually recently got a partnership with Falter Longo's fasting mimicking diet prolon, which is something where people can actually buy a kit and try out that diet. So I don't have the code yet for listeners, but we'll have to add it to the show notes because we should have a discount code. If people ever want to try a fasting mimicking diet, I would imagine it's probably going to be prolonlife.com slash I have podcast with the code I have podcast for some sort of discount, but we will have to confirm that.

Barry Conrad
How good is that for timing? Look at that little connection.

Melanie Avalon
I know, I know I was looking up to see when like when we actually are running a spot for them. And I think yeah, it will have happened. It will have happened last month, I think. So yeah, but thank you for finding that.

Do you have cancer in your family, by the way?

Barry Conrad
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
I do too and it's crazy because it's one of those things that, and I was reading a stat about this, but I think basically, I mean, pretty much everybody probably knows somebody directly affected by cancer. So it's so nice that there's something that can have such an overreaching effect that can potentially benefit so many people.

Barry Conrad
Definitely very personal my second mom passed away from cancer and by the time she found out i was just too late to even you know it was just too far down the track and. You know there's so much more knowledge that we have now and as the science keeps evolving like people can become better equipped to help manage whatever.

They going through which I think is the most amazing thing about science in general, like you know, the more we know, the more we can do and that's powerful.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, could not agree anymore. And yeah, I'm so sorry to hear that. So we will keep spreading things that might help. All right, shall we jump into some listener questions?

Barry Conrad
I think we should do that now, let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
All right, would you like to read the first question from Sabrina?

Barry Conrad
sure would. So Sabrina from Facebook says, can diabetes really be reversed with diet or is it just controlled with diet and you will never be able to eat normal again? My husband was diagnosed last September. He chose to do the diet and not take drugs and his numbers are great.

His average is 120 but maybe once a month he just wants to try something and then his sugar goes very high quickly and drops pretty quick. Also wondering how that is affecting him when he has these little treats. Melanie, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
All right. Sabrina, thank you for your question. So it's such a good question. And I'm going to start by addressing this concept of, you know, can it be reversed or is it just controlled? So there's type one versus type two diabetes. It sounds like your husband likely has type two diabetes. Type one diabetes is an autoimmune-related condition where your pancreas just doesn't produce insulin adequately. People are usually born with it versus type two diabetes, which is where it's induced by diet. And it's where the pancreas essentially gets overwhelmed with having to produce too much insulin all the time. Your cells become resistant to listening to insulin because they're getting hit with insulin all the time. And the reason this is all happening is because of the constantly high blood sugar levels. And then ultimately it can lead to, you know, failure of the pancreas, you know, increasingly other health conditions. So it's just such a problem.

What's really interesting about this idea of can it be reversed versus controlled? So people will say that once you have any sort of condition that you're always just in remission, that you're, you know, that you that it never is gone, you're just managing it essentially. And what I find really interesting about this, and this is kind of like a little bit of an esoteric approach, but you could have two people who are controlling their blood sugar levels through diet. Let's say one person had type two diabetes in the past and then came back and the other person never had type two diabetes. Both of those people, presumably, if they were to follow a diet that constantly raised their blood sugar levels and constantly led to a situation that could create type two diabetes, like they're both vulnerable to that. And it's all being affected and managed by diet. So I find it really interesting that we would consider these two people who, let's say right now, like I said, have normal blood sugar levels, they're controlling it through diet. One has had type two diabetes, the other has not. Yet we consider one of them to be in remission and controlling their type two diabetes and the other person not. But they're both equally, I mean, they're both susceptible to type two diabetes. So in a way, it almost doesn't matter to me, it almost doesn't matter this terminology around reversing, controlling, managing remission, because type two diabetes is something that's going to be created by or started by or restarted by your diet and lifestyle.

So to me, the terminology doesn't really, I don't want to say it doesn't matter, but it almost doesn't matter because it doesn't change the facts about if you do this, you might trend towards type two diabetes. And if you don't, you won't. So as far as your husband and doing the diet, he's not taking the drugs. I'm assuming the drugs might be something like metformin or insulin. It's hard to know, probably metformin. And now his numbers are great. But now he's experiencing this thing where once a month he wants to try something and his sugar goes very high. I'm assuming, I would like to know more about what he's eating.

Melanie Avalon
I'm assuming he's doing a lower carb diet, probably. And this actually is pretty common where people are following a low carb diet, a whole foods diet, a keto diet. They actually can get this sort of physiological insulin resistance, like a temporary insulin resistance. And it's because the body is accustomed to not having a lot of blood glucose around and blood sugar around. So when it does get it, the cells actually are resistant because they want to preserve that glucose for the brain. So basically people who are not eating, who are on a low carb diet or keto diet might experience this effect where when they have some carbs, their sugar goes super high and then drops. So it's something where it could be temporary because of the diet he's following.

The only way to know if it's a quote beneficial adaptation would be if he were to continue following a whole foods diet inclusive of carbs, so have a higher carb intake. And then when he has glucose, sugar, whatever it may be, does he have the same response? That would be pretty telling as to whether or not it's like a temporary thing now where his body is just kind of preferentially not taking in glucose? Or is it that his cells still are insulin resistant across the board, which is possible? And he just, you know, it's gonna have issues taking in sugar. It's also a thing where like if, especially if he's following a keto diet, and it's really high fat, if he's in that state, and then he adds in a sugar dose, it's even harder for his body to process that because those are two competing fuel substrates. There's something called the Randall cycle, which speaks to this idea that basically the body is preferentially burning carbs or fat, not both at the same time. So if he's following like a high fat diet, and then he adds in sugar, it's not a good situation. And that might be also causing this really high number.

And then what can happen is it goes really high, the cells aren't taking it in. And then eventually that the pancreas pumps out a lot of insulin to bring it down. And then you get reactive hypoglycemia, where you actually the blood sugar goes too low. So that might be what he's experiencing. To answer thoughts and responses, how is it affecting him when he has these treats? So it's not good. So even though his sugar sounds like it's low, and he's keeping his average low, any sort of really massive spike is not good for the body. It does lead to it is taxing on the pancreas. So it's not ideal is the point.

That said, if it's literally once a month, and it's just once, and his blood sugar is good the rest of the time, I personally wouldn't be as concerned about it. But the question is, is it really just once a month? Not to say that I don't believe you, but I'm just saying the frequency is probably important there. And something he could do, so I know he doesn't want to take drugs or pharmaceuticals. He might be taking berberine. If not, I would suggest it either way, because it's great for blood sugar control. There's so many trials that actually compare berberine to metformin, which is that pharmaceutical that helps manage blood sugar levels.

Melanie Avalon
And they find it to be pretty equal in their effectiveness. And it's all natural. And it only has really been like has beneficial effects. In addition to blood sugar control, it's great for cholesterol. It can have a beneficial effect on the gut microbiome. It even stimulates AMPK, which is an anti-aging longevity pathway in the body.

I love berberine. I take it every day. You could take it in the fastest state. You can take it before meals. I have my berberine, which I made to be the best on the market. And I've tested it with CGMs, which I want to come back to. So I would highly recommend that he get some berberine. So if he goes to avlonx.us and checks out my berberine there, you can use the coupon code IF Podcast to get a discount on that. Speaking of CGMs, oh, actually other things he could do to help with these spikes when he's experiencing them. So say he just wants to do it, he's going to have these treats. There's a lot you can do to help mitigate that blood sugar spike. So take the berberine before the meal, taking apple cider vinegar before the meal can help, adding cinnamon to the meal can help. And definitely, definitely, well, A, if you can like exercise before and then walk after, that also really helps. So anything that you can do to help mitigate that is really great.

And then I would also suggest getting, I mean, he knows that his, okay, I'm guessing maybe he's testing his blood sugar with like a glucometer. He might want to try a CGM, a continuous glucose monitor for two weeks. And that would give him a better picture of how his blood sugar is responding basically all the time to everything. And that might help help give a better picture. Although you say you know that his average is 120. So I don't know if that's just from him doing a glucometer all the time, or it might be from maybe he's already wearing a CGM. But if listeners are interested in a CGM, they can go to Nutrisense.com slash I have podcast. That's n-u-t-r-i-s-e-n-s-e.com slash I have podcast and use the code I have podcast. It should get you $30 off and one free month of nutritionist support.

So that was a lot of thoughts. Barry, do you have thoughts?

Barry Conrad
No, I think that you summed it up wonderfully. The thing that I only had a question about was exactly what you talked about as all which is, is this just an occasional? If it's a one-off, I don't think there's anything to worry about, but it sounds like it's not. What did you think about that, Mel?

Like the occasional treat? Like, you know, because once in a while, it's not a concern, I don't think. To me, anyway.

Melanie Avalon
So she said he does it like once a month, right? You want to enjoy your life, you know, you want to do the things. And if it's literally once a month, and it's good the rest of time, I wouldn't worry about it. I just know it's a slippery slope for some people.

And once a month becomes once a week becomes, you know, more often, it's never good having that massive spike. But I think you have to take it into account with the cost benefit of the entirety of your life, you know, like you want to live a satisfying life. And it's awesome that he's addressing his blood sugar levels through diet. Like that's amazing. So kudos, bravo to him. And I would definitely say try, try the berberine, for sure.

Barry Conrad
Try the brethren!

Melanie Avalon
So Okidoki, shall we go on to our next question?

Barry Conrad
Let's do it.

Melanie Avalon
So our next question comes from Susan, and this is from Facebook. And Susan says, I've reached a lull. I'm leveling out and I wonder what is good to jumpstart myself again, definitely for weight loss. I got down to a point and crept back up.

We have a big event in two weeks. So starting again strong today, I know that it's eating too early and too much. I hope, is what she says. So what are your thoughts for Susan?

Barry Conrad
Hey Susan, how's it going? Thank you for your question. First off, I know exactly how you feel and respect for, I think, being self-aware. Sometimes the hardest part is just admitting that and just being honest with ourselves and naming where we're at without sugarcoating it. So let's start there.

You've already won half the battle there by acknowledging that. That lull you're describing is totally normal. It's something that almost everyone who's been on a fasting or health or weight loss journey experiences and has experienced. You're going to have plateaus. You're going to feel like you're going backwards, forwards, stalling. You're cruising along, feeling great, maybe even dropping weight consistently. And then suddenly you hit this flat patch or worse, things can feel like they creep back up and like you've lost ground. But the truth is, it doesn't mean what you were doing isn't working anymore. It just means your body's adapted. So the human body, it's so good at keeping us alive and when we're doing something consistently like fasting or following a certain way of eating, our metabolism catches up on that. So it adapts. It's pretty clever. It adapts. It adjusts. And sometimes it slows things down to maintain a balance. And that's where you experience that sort of plateau situation. But you can shake things up without going too extreme as well or going to extremes. So since you mentioned eating too early and too much here, that's a good place to start.

OK, so if your eating window has been creeping earlier, just be intentional about pushing it back even maybe even by 30 minutes or an hour. Like you'd be surprised how much impact that small tweak could maybe make. And on the you said too much. So on the too much side, it's not it's not always about restriction. It's about maybe sorting out your portion sizes, recalibrating those, checking in on whether you're you're eating to nourish or to soothe or to distract or to reward. So really checking in about being mindful about you eating and what you're using there for too is is something that could be helpful. One of my personal go to resets like when I want to feel tighter and leaner or just to get the momentum is I keep my meals pretty simple. And Melanie will say the same thing, like I'm a bit of a creature of habit. And I think you are too. Like we like to eat a lot of the same things, lots of high protein. And I like to keep my meals super simple and protein forward for a few days. So think think lean meats, eggs, greens, healthy fats and maybe dial back to the carbs a little bit for a little bit and and stay away from anything that could make me make you blow it. You don't have to cut everything out. It's not about being extreme. Just reduce the food noise for a period and see how that if it affects you in any way. So the simpler you eat, the easier you can maybe listen to your body, sort of like an elimination diet, but not really.

Barry Conrad
But just just to see tweaking it, if that might help. Also, I reckon don't underestimate sleep, the basic sleep, hydration and keeping stress low stress is a part of life, but keeping stress low because all three of those things, they mess with like a hunger and insulin. So if you're trying to reset, treat those things like non-negotiables because they're like a foundational thing. So hydrate, hydrate, aim for for sleep.

Take a few minutes each day to do something that brings you joy to like switch off decompress whatever that looks like for you. And with this big event coming up in a couple of weeks, that's that's pretty good motivation. But don't let it stress you out because I know how that could be. You feel like this thing is looming, like I need to look a certain way for a certain outfit instead, use it as a focus point. I reckon like get consistent for you, not just for the event. You want to be you want it to be your lifestyle rather than just to live from event to event and let the event be a bonus and not necessarily the reason.

You know what I mean? And if your weight crept up a bit, don't sweat it. You know, your body remembers the scale keeps changing day to day anyway. It wants to just get back to a place I reckon where it feels good. So you just need to go out and gently not punish it. So you're starting pretty strong. You know, that's what matters most. So let the momentum do its thing. You got this. Now, what do you reckon?

Melanie Avalon
That was so incredible and so comprehensive. And I agree with everything you said. Yeah, I like that you pointed out about how it's normal to plateau or have lulls, especially when, like you were saying, when you do lose weight, your metabolism does adjust to the new weight. And it's not because your metabolism is slowing down negatively like you harm your metabolism. It's just that when you weigh less, you literally require burning less calories to maintain your body. So it's just a natural thing.

So kind of like on the flip side, when you gain weight, you now have a higher resting metabolic rate. So something that does need to be accounted for with weight loss is that you might have a lower resting metabolic rate at a lower rate. One of the great things about fasting is people often find that it's protective of weight regain and can really help support that whole process. I always find this really interesting.

I feel like we get a lot of questions or we have throughout the years where people ask the question and then in the question, they give the answer. Like they already know the answer. It happens a lot. And it's kind of like they need to hear somebody else say it back to them.

Barry Conrad
they reassured, but you know, they already know. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so like she says she knows she's eating too early and too much a I don't I agree with Barry though that we don't want to make this about restriction so we don't I wouldn't even focus on you know that you're eating I think it's great like Barry said you have awareness of what the issues might be so now you have a lot of tools to address that and it isn't necessarily like Barry was saying it isn't necessarily meaning that you have to start you know eating way less I love the idea so the eating too early I feel like I'm just echoing back what you said but it's what I it's what I think if you've expanded your eating window and now it's not as tight of a windows it used to be you know can you just go back and tighten up the window again and see what that does I think people get they get overwhelmed or upset when they regain weight and so they feel like they have to do like all the things when maybe you can you know make a tweak here a tweak there and that can actually have a massive effect it's the it's the things we do consistently that really really affect us so tightening up your eating window and then again for eating too much so yes a you could just try eating less or b you could do a lot of fun hacks like Barry was saying these are actually some of the hacks I wrote down I didn't write down the one about eating simply but I agree so much about that one it works so well for me like I just love eating I love eating the food I eat and when you don't bring in a lot of variety to your meals you you don't tend to overeat as much especially when you're focusing on protein that's why bodybuilders you know they pretty it's not the only reason but it's a reason that bodybuilders will eat like two foods because it's harder to overeat when you're doing that but the thing is you really want to make sure that you're getting all your nutrients so you really want to make sure it's nutrient dense and things like that you can also try tweaks like so Barry suggested like lowering the carbs I guess we don't really know what she's eating normally so trying I don't know what her carb intake is like normally trying either a higher carb low fat approach or a low carb higher fat approach and I'm being very intentional in where I put the er versus the not er and the point of that is because I think if you do like a um a low fat approach and you want to see magic from it actually making it low fat is key so it wants you you want it to be low fat and then have higher carbs so like not adding and like and if you do it like in a whole foods type situation it's pretty easy to do so that that would basically look like just eating whole foods and not adding oils and fats to your meat or to your sorry to your meals and not eating like super fatty meat and that will pretty much bring you to a a low fat higher carb approach or on the flip side if you want to try low carb higher fat and the reason I say higher fat is because you don't necessarily have to eat all the fat on a low carb high fat approach you can go low carb and eat fatty foods but not like drown everything in butter to to tomorrow so I think eating in a changing around the macros is something to try doing what Barry said with you know trying to eat more simply even throwing in a few days where you do like quote like a PSMF type day like so a day basically where you eat just lean protein not even necessarily counting calories but having a day here and there those will be really stimulating metabolically stimulating for your body because they're so high protein and then they actually end up being a pretty big calorie deficit so so basically if you have a day where you eat you know just lots of like lean chicken this is something that Maria Emmerich talks about a lot a lot yeah I think there's a lot of a lot of things you can try I love the idea about starting strong and just be kind to yourself and supportive of yourself and just remember that this is what I used to tell myself in the past was if you so choose it could in theory only get better from here like you can choose to make every decision about the lifestyle choices you make and what you put in your body be beneficial going forward so in theory it could only go up from here you don't have to be on this on the swing what is it the seesaw

Barry Conrad
So good.

Melanie Avalon
All right.

Barry Conrad
Well, we hope that was helpful for you, Susan, yeah.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Susan and Sabrina, some alliteration there, let us know how it goes. And yeah, shall we have our proverbial breaking of the fast? What was that word that you wanted to start using?

Barry Conrad
Ah, dude, take a station.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, what is it?

Barry Conrad
Shout out to Damon in the Facebook group he mentioned because I posted some sort of a photo and I said it was a digestation and then he said maybe you and Mel should use that as the word for the restaurant segment.

Melanie Avalon
Still don't know this word, though. What? Wait, you don't know it.

Barry Conrad
D-E-G-U, so, degustation. I mean, I'm so surprised that you don't know this word, because I feel like- Maybe it's Australian.

Really? Because I feel like it's like, it's a very male-coded thing. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon
is the careful, appreciative tasting of various food focusing on the gustatory system that senses high culinary art and good company.

Barry Conrad
Mm-hmm, but how we kind of use it like typically it's like the digger station is like Multi-course sort of experience kind of thing. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that Merriam Webster, so that was Wikipedia, Merriam Webster says, the action or an instance of tasting, especially in a series of small portions. Yeah, I had.

Barry Conrad
And Mel, actually, one of the best digestations I've ever had in my life was in Monterey, California a couple of years ago. It was so good.

I have to find the photos and send them to you. It was amazing. A place called Coastal Kitchen, on the water, incredible wine, incredible food. Like, yes, small portions, but by the time you're done, you're pretty satisfied because there's a lot of them.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, okay, so it's like a yeah, it's like a thing it's like a digestation menu is a tasting menu Oh, it's a tasting menu. How do I not know?

Barry Conrad
this word. That's what I mean. I was like, I thought you'd be like, oh yeah, take a session.

Melanie Avalon
because I don't like tasting many.

Barry Conrad
That's actually true. Listen as Mel, you've said this before on the podcast, like, I don't like set menus or like, you know, you'd like to be able to choose.

Melanie Avalon
I would like, okay, there is a Degas station that I would like if it was a Degas station and it was just different meats.

Barry Conrad
Okay, that tracks for sure.

Melanie Avalon
So shall we have our proverbial breaking of the fast, which may or may not include a devastation, but will and spirit?

Barry Conrad
Yeah, let's do it. I'm ready, especially after this wisdom teeth situation. Like I'm feeling even more into the segment today.

Perfect. Okay. I wonder if there's a good, I wonder if there's a degustation specialty place in Atlanta that you could check out to experience it.

Melanie Avalon
Well, if it's just a tasting menu. Okay.

Barry Conrad
Okay, no, it's, I feel like you're making it seem like

Melanie Avalon
If it's a synonym for tasting menu, that is a thing.

Barry Conrad
No.

Melanie Avalon
It's got to be more special than that. I'm going to see it now, though. I'm going to go somewhere and it's going to be like, Degas Station, written really big.

Barry Conrad
Does your sister know about this word? You should ask her.

Melanie Avalon
I'm going to ask her. Oh, also I'm supposed to tell you hi from her. She says hi.

Barry Conrad
Uh, hey, Danny.

Melanie Avalon
She said before we started recording.

Barry Conrad
I call, listen, this is not very interesting, but I call Melanie sister Danny, and Melanie calls her Danielle, like very, you know, full word.

Melanie Avalon
I'm the only person who calls her Danielle. Everybody else calls her Danny.

She self-identifies as Danny, but I've never called her Danny like my entire life, so I can't start now. It's too, that ship has sailed.

Barry Conrad
with the Digistation Tasty Mini.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's all gone. Okay, so in keeping up with the spirit of my Disney World restaurants, I'm actually going away from Epcot this time. And I sent you the restaurant. This year, 2025, Disney World was awarded two restaurants with Michelin stars. Wow. Yep. And there's only 31 Michelin starred restaurants in Florida, I think. And two of them are at Disney World.

One of them is actually a Degas station restaurant. Come to think of it, I think. Victoria and Albert's, maybe we'll do that sometime. I want to do that one, but the mini is not really. I don't think the mini is online. So the other one though, the God of Michelin star is this restaurant at the Four Seasons Orlando at Disney World. And it's called Coppa.

Barry Conrad
Love the four seasons.

Melanie Avalon
I love the Four Seasons as well. Actually, I have a Four Seasons gift card that I've not used. Maybe we need to go to Disney World and go here and use it.

Barry Conrad
I'm about it, I'm down for that.

Melanie Avalon
want to. I've been saving it. I've been saving it for something and this is it, I guess. I actually have not looked at the menu yet. Actually, I literally forgot that I had it because it's in the Apple Wallet. I have so many tickets in there for theater and it's way at the bottom. I forgot about it.

This restaurant is called Kappa. I know nothing about it. I'm looking at it now. It looks cool.

Barry Conrad
I'm pulling it up right now, it looks pretty, I'm looking at the dinner menu, clicking in. Yeah, it's got already, it's already a hit with me because look at that.

Melanie Avalon
what is the first oh my goodness gracious i didn't even i'm experiencing this in real life the first thing on the menu is oysters the first two things on the menu if you read horizontally

Barry Conrad
Happy about that.

Melanie Avalon
It says, indulge in our Michelin star rooftop steakhouse and bar, boasting the best of Spanish influence cuisine in a romantic setting. Reserve now.

Okay. I'm sold. Crudos. What are you going to get for your starter?

Your crudos. I don't speak Spanish. What does crudos mean?

Barry Conrad
I'm just guessing that it's like small things or like starter, but I could be wrong.

Melanie Avalon
It means raw. Oh, there you go.

Wait, no. A dish, that's one thing. A dish of sliced, seasoned, uncooked seafood. Okay. Uncooked fish or seafood, which equals sea creatures with shells. Okay. So what are you getting?

Barry Conrad
You know what, this is, listeners, when you, hopefully looking this up, looking up this with us as well, it looks amazing. I'm going to actually go for all of those raw items.

I'm going to go for the.

Melanie Avalon
Do you see what they have? They have the caviar that we talked about.

So on the Mindblown podcast, we did an episode on the most expensive foods in the world. And we talked about the Royal Beluga caviar.

Really? Uh-huh, it's like the most expensive caviar. They have it.

Barry Conrad
far out. Okay, we'll see. Well, that's definitely happening. So definitely, it's the, how do you say it, the Trojan Royal Beluga caviar that's happening during the attune. I hope this is being sponsored by the restaurant. Yeah. Imagine that. I wonder what it tastes like too, like, and how much you get of it, like how, how big a serving.

Melanie Avalon
This is what we learned about it. So I think they, there's only one place in the U S that has this caviar. And it's because I think it got, I hope I'm not telling this wrong. I feel like it got like import, you could band import it. You couldn't import it here anymore, but there was this one farm guy that had it already. So he got like grandfathered in. So like he has it and that's why it's so expensive. I hope that was not the wrong story.

I think that was the story that was the case with something that was expensive and I'm pretty sure it was this.

Barry Conrad
It's a pretty good thing to have though. I imagine that like, yeah, it's, I've got it. You got to come through me like this. I can set the price, you know, it's good.

Melanie Avalon
Wait, you're really getting everything? I just want the shrimp cocktail.

Barry Conrad
No, I knew you were going to get that. I'm going to get everything.

Because the oysters, to me, if you actually had oysters, Melanie, you'll realize that they're actually not that filling. They're just delicious, so they don't really... Are you getting both oysters? Because there's two. Yeah, so I'm getting the mediskada, which is oysters, crab salad,

Melanie Avalon
That's like comes with everything.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, cocktail shrimp tuna crudo, so that's like a mixed situation.

Melanie Avalon
Oh, so you could get that.

Barry Conrad
And the other side, then the oysters are like extras, like oysters, cocktail sauce, megan net. And then the shrimp cocktail, which is the Camaron cocktailero, the attuncrudo, which is tuna caviar. Oh man, this looks amazing.

Half dried grapes, agio blanco. And then of course, Melanie, the caviar that you talked about before, the Royal Beluga.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, yeah, I think I understand the menu better. So like the Mariscotta includes the other three things so you can try all of them.

And then there's the caviar section is what it looks like. Okay, I'll just get an extra shrimp cocktail and I'll taste the caviar, please.

Barry Conrad
Okay, sounds good.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, now we're on to more words we don't know. Para picar. Yeah, do you know what that means?

Barry Conrad
I don't, but let me look it up actually when I find out. It means to eat, to nibble on. Oh, that's cool.

Melanie Avalon
for nibbling to snack on. How adorable. Tapas. Okay.

Barry Conrad
So it's still pretty small, we're still in the small part of the meal, not too big yet.

Melanie Avalon
What are you going to get from here? From the tapas.

Barry Conrad
I'm going to get some bread, which is the panerstico. I'm going to get some croquettas, because I like croquettas. That's jamo and serrano, bichamo, onion, subice. I'm definitely going to get the serdó, which is beer, brine, pork belly. Love pork belly. Do you like pork belly well? And then, oh, man, there's just too many things. There's also, I'm not going to do the don't love dates. I'm not going to do the medjool dates. I'll do the gambas, which is shrimp, egg, yolk, chili, celery root chips. So that's what I'm getting.

I'm going to get the panerstico, croquettas, serdó, and the gambas. What about you, Mel?

Melanie Avalon
I might skip this course. You get to skip it. Well, you got four things, so I do like pork belly, but I don't like beer brined pork belly.

Barry Conrad
And I don't think that they can put the beer brine on the side. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon
What is the shrimp egg yolk? What is that? Shrimp egg yolk, chili, agambas? You were getting that, right?

Barry Conrad
It's celery root chips. So okay, so but what is the year gummus? I wonder...

Melanie Avalon
I'll get that no chili or on the side and the root chips on the side, basically just the shrimp and the egg yolk. So I get another course of shrimp. Yeah.

Barry Conrad
Again, this is a good menu by the way, good find, I'm loving the choices so far.

Melanie Avalon
Now we're still in the world of small. It's a small world. After all, small plates. Rastione.

Barry Conrad
Gracionias, what do you what do you reckon you want from the smell? What's looking good?

Melanie Avalon
I'm figuring out what raciones means. It means larger portions of food typically meant to be shared. Oh, okay, oh my goodness, I got the order now. I can't believe I didn't know this.

Tapas are small individual bites, that's what we did. Then there's para picar, which we also did, which is small snacks to nibble, which can include tapas or smaller items. And then there's raciones, which is this, which is larger share plate. Think of a full dish of something. Oh, it's like a full dish that you share. So, but it's still like a small plate it says, so that's confusing. Okay, oh, there's something here I like. Roasted bone marrow, the tuetano.

Barry Conrad
I wonder, have you heard that before?

Melanie Avalon
But it comes with Chistora gratin and an oak-toasted pan. So yeah, I'll go for that. Oh wait, have you had octopus before?

Barry Conrad
Hell yeah, I love octopus. Love it.

Melanie Avalon
It's not fried, right? You've never had octopus. Are you looking down at me for my lack of what?

Barry Conrad
Okay, Melanie, have you never had octopus before?

Melanie Avalon
Okay, I have a distinct memory of being somewhere at a restaurant and my parents, and there were tiny little octopuses. I'm pretty sure the plural of octopuses is octopuses.

There were tiny little octopuses.

Barry Conrad
Okay. Well, to answer your question, you can fry them, but they're often not fried. Sometimes they're just cured or grilled. They're really delicious.

Melanie Avalon
I'm kidding. You know, I'm feeling in my body viscerally right now, you know, and you know me, I love my meat and seafood, and the feeling I get about oysters, I'm like getting that feeling about these octopuses.

Barry Conrad
Oh, no, we're going to change this. We're going to experiment with octopus, octopi.

Melanie Avalon
I'm checking the plural form. I'm pretty sure I'm correct. Hold on, octopuses. What is the plural form? The plural of octopus is octopuses. Really? Uh-huh.

Barry Conrad
It doesn't sound right, does it, like octopuses?

Melanie Avalon
It's the most widely accepted and grammatically correct English plural. People often say octopi, but it's technically incorrect.

And it's because octopus is from Greek, not Latin. So using a Latin plural form doesn't apply.

Barry Conrad
Okay.

Melanie Avalon
Interesting so you're getting are you getting octopus is

Barry Conrad
Okay, I'm getting the, the Polpo, it's this paprika marinade octopuses and the mojo verde. It's just one octopus though, but yeah, this is normal.

Is it like one little small octopus? Is it like, yeah, hopefully not. It might be a big octopus. It could be. And they're also getting patatas bravas because I actually, Mel, fun fact, I make these, my own version of these crispy potatoes and they're really good.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. Amazing. You'll have to compare it to your recipe.

Barry Conrad
Would you taste it though, or would you be like, I'll look at them and see if I.

Melanie Avalon
I will look at them.

Barry Conrad
I think I'm going to try the, I'm curious about your choice to a tunnel because I've never had roasted bone marrow. So yeah, I'll have those three.

Melanie Avalon
You've never had roasted bone marrow.

Barry Conrad
I feel like you're looking down on me.

Melanie Avalon
I know that was my, my getting back at you. No, but here's the thing. I feel like it's much more common to have bone marrow than octopuses.

Barry Conrad
No way! What do you mean?

Melanie Avalon
Yes way, do they not eat bone marrow in Australia?

Barry Conrad
In Australia, pretty much every restaurant, like seafood salad, octopus salad, octopus in the salad bar, it's like a thing.

Melanie Avalon
Okay, we don't. But bone marrow is on a lot of a lot of restaurants here, not like a ton, but it is a common, like it's not surprising to see it on a menu. If you're at a nice restaurant.

Barry Conrad
Okay, well, so to answer your question, no, I mean, I have had bone marrow in a bone, like, you know, but not a roaster. I don't know. What does it look like? Roasted bone marrow.

Melanie Avalon
You probably have roasted them i mean how else. How have you had it cooked.

Barry Conrad
It's more like when there's marrow inside a bone, you suck it out. That's what I mean. Is that wrong?

Melanie Avalon
You're talking about like, you're talking about like you're eating like, like a chicken carcass and there's like marrow inside of it.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, or like a lamb shank and you suck it up.

Melanie Avalon
Have you had it as a dish?

Barry Conrad
No, I've never had bone marrow as a dish. So good. Really?

Melanie Avalon
It's it's okay. It's one of those foods that does not taste like what you think it's gonna taste like

Barry Conrad
Do you know what else?

Melanie Avalon
Octopuses.

Barry Conrad
Exactly. I was going to say it's one of those foods that it tastes like you don't think it's going to taste in a good way. So that's why you should give it a chance and oysters.

Melanie Avalon
I'm just being upfront about the my premonition bone marrow because it sounds, I don't know, it sounds like not approachable, like something funky, like an or it sounds like an organ meat or something. No, no, no.

It is just this most delicious tasting fat ever. It's like, oh, like the angels like sing.

Barry Conrad
Sounds good, sounds delicious.

Melanie Avalon
So, okay, now we are still in the world of smallness. We're at the Spanish charcuterie and cheeses. Oh, this is easy. I know exactly what I want here.

This is so easy. What are you gonna get? The acorn-fed black hoof, jamon, Iberico, the jamon, I'm probably betraying this, no pun intended, jamon de belata, belata. Iberico acorn-fed, it's like prosciutto. It's so good. It's probably not prosciutto. I'm probably using the wrong words, but it's so, yeah, that.

Barry Conrad
I'm getting all three.

Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, we ordered the whole new name.

Barry Conrad
A confetti black hoof jamon eberico and then also the other one is the chef's selection of cured meats which is has to happen and then the next one down is the chef's selection of artisan cheeses so I've got to experience the whole thing I can't just have the one thing.

Melanie Avalon
So I thought my gift card was going to cover this. I'm where we might be like reaching the limits.

Oh my goodness. I, I'm glad you're getting though the artists and cured meets because I'm curious, I would try those as well for sure.

Barry Conrad
There also might not be the quantity might not be massive because if it's Spanish style, it's probably not massive.

Melanie Avalon
Salads, we're still in the world of small. I'm passing on salads. Do you want a salad?

Barry Conrad
The one that sticks out to me would probably be the, I love tomatoes, so probably something fresh like the halon tomatoes, cucumbers, smoked garlic vinegar, and black sea salt, because it's just fresh. Have one of those on the table, thanks.

It sounds very fresh.

Melanie Avalon
I'm having flashbacks to... I've told this story before. We went to Paris with my family and my dad ordered the tomato salad at one point. It was literally just a tomato. That was it. I think it was a tomato with some cilantro. My family was laughing about it for eons.

Now we are to the grill. Long time coming. I'm excited to be here. They have a Wagyu flight. That's cool. You get to try five ounces of American, five ounces of Australian, and three ounces of Japanese. It was made for us. Oh my goodness. We have to get that. I don't even like the super fatty meat, but we can't not. That must be received by the table.

Barry Conrad
I have an idea. What is your idea? How about we get that for the table and then we get our own selection of another choice? Because I feel like we should sample.

Melanie Avalon
that could be dessert. It's not dessert. Okay. For the table. Okay. And then what, what are you going to have for your main

Barry Conrad
Okay, looking at now, I'm going to go for the grass fed lamb rack. I just, I'm in the mood for lamb.

Let's do it. Comes with pumpkin, pepita, and cocoa crust. It's Fletcher, New Zealand. So that's, yes, time is delicious.

Melanie Avalon
I really like that they say where every steak comes from. I don't think I've seen this on a menu before.

So every single steak, they put the town it's from. Like one is from like Creekstone, Kansas. One's from Jackman, Fort Davis, Texas, et cetera. So they have my favorite kind of steak here. So that's what I'm getting. Do you know what that is? Oh wait, how are you gonna have your lamb cooked?

Barry Conrad
I'm going to go medium rare vibes.

Melanie Avalon
Solid.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, because I feel like with lamb, I don't go as rare with lamb as I do with beef. Beef, I can go pretty rare.

Melanie Avalon
Do you want to know a fun fact about Wagyu that I recently shared on a mind blown podcast episode? Tell me.

So you know how they say it melts in your mouth. So Wagyu actually melts in your mouth because the fat composition of it is different from normal steaks. It's higher in monounsaturated fat and it has a melting point that is lower than our body temperature, sorry, yes, lower than our body temperature. So when you have Wagyu steak, it literally melts in your mouth.

Barry Conrad
That's amazing. I never knew that.

Melanie Avalon
That's why I'm here. Fun facts. Okay, so do you know what my favorite cut is?

Barry Conrad
Is it where is it where you know.

Melanie Avalon
No, no, no, too fatty.

Barry Conrad
OK, no, it's the filet.

Melanie Avalon
Mmm, which one which one there's there's two

Barry Conrad
I'm going to go for the, is it the prime filet?

Melanie Avalon
The options are prime fillet or prime bone end fillet.

Barry Conrad
I think the prime fillet.

Melanie Avalon
No, no, bone in. I love, I'm a carnivore. How did you not, if you thought about it longer, you might have.

Barry Conrad
Yeah maybe I should have thought about but also I didn't picture you you know picking up the bone because it's not your thing you know you would like cover you say to people look away I don't I can't eat the bones or

Melanie Avalon
I wouldn't tell people to look away, I would just cover my mouth. That's what I mean.

Yes, no, bone and fillet, you get all that extra flavor from the bone. Whenever we had it, when I was working in fine dining, when we would have a bone and fillet, I would sell that. I would sell so many bone and fillets. Really? Yes, because I passionately believe what I say about them, which is that it's like the best of all the worlds. You get the really lean, tender cut because the fillet is essentially maybe the leanest cut and also the most tender, best of both worlds. And then you get all the flavor from the bone as well. So good.

Barry Conrad
Delicious. I really am craving... Do what? You're craving what? Meat. Now. Oh. Sorry, what were you saying? And you also get the what? You also get the...

Melanie Avalon
I was just gonna say that like, if you're like, wait, how is there still an entree section? I'm confused. I thought we were done. Wait, now there's an entree section. Oh, it's like non-stakes.

Barry Conrad
Mm hmm. This is going to be a very long dinner in a good way.

Melanie Avalon
Do you want any of the entrees from the entree section?

Barry Conrad
Guess what I'm gonna get, see if you can guess it.

Melanie Avalon
Is it one of the paleos? Which one? De marascos. Yes. Si, I know you well.

Barry Conrad
Paella dei Marescos. It's bomber rice, mussels, calamari, head on shrimp, baby scallops, and saffron. That sounds like a, that sounds amazing, actually.

Melanie Avalon
Got the saffron. See, I'm seeing all the most expensive ingredients in the world on this list. The Iberico ham, the saffron, the Wagyu, the Beluga caviar. Yeah.

Barry Conrad
Melanie, guess what? I don't think that the gift card's gonna get past the first section of this menu.

Melanie Avalon
It is a very big gift card.

Barry Conrad
Okay.

Melanie Avalon
Hmm, I know I don't think so, but it'll it'll help. It'll help

Barry Conrad
Okay, are you going to get anything from the intro section?

Melanie Avalon
I think I would, oh, because there's additions. I might get, hmm, let me look. No, I think I'm good.

Additions? Additions. I think I would like to add a lobster tail. Same. You can also add bone marrow. If you really like it, you could get some more.

Barry Conrad
sources I don't I feel like you're gonna pass on the sources but I'm asking anyway

Melanie Avalon
Are you gonna get a sauce?

Barry Conrad
I'm gonna get the cap of steaks for us. That sounds delicious on the side.

Melanie Avalon
If I, it's Berenesa, Berenese, but written in Spanish. That's what I would get if I was eating more sauces. I love Berenese.

Barry Conrad
Okay, what about vegetables?

Melanie Avalon
We can get some broccolini. How about you?

Barry Conrad
Frockoline is good to have on the table. I also do like the idea of the Calabaza, the roasted winter squash. I don't have a lot of squash normally. That sounds quite nice.

Melanie Avalon
I like what they say at the end, they say our mindfulness and contribution to sustainability are connected in our efforts to make a difference by sourcing locally and seasonally when available, only cage free eggs, sustainably certified fish and reducing waste to minimize while minimizing environmental impact.

Barry Conrad
I love that. That's great.

Melanie Avalon
Do they have the dessert menu?

Barry Conrad
I think you have to go back to the thing. Is there one? There is.

Melanie Avalon
Okay. Oh my goodness. Okay. Are you gonna do, are you gonna do the tasting flight of drinks?

Barry Conrad
Oh yeah, that's happening for sure. Oh, there's four different ones though. Oh, they're all different. Okay, I'm going to get the tequila tasting flight for sure, which is Sin Cora, Ana Gia, Casa, Dragana, Yovan, Don Yulio, and Petron Grand Platinum for sure, the tequila, and then I'm going to get the... You know what?

Because in South Africa, we drink a lot of brandy, so I think I'm going to try the Taurus brandy. 10 year, 15 year, 20 year, Jamie one. So those two... No, I'm going to be having a happy, relaxed, vibey time.

Melanie Avalon
I'll just get another, I'll get more wine.

Barry Conrad
What about the dulce's, the sweet treats?

Melanie Avalon
This is where I'm going to bring, okay, so we've tried so many things for dessert. I'm going to get another round of whatever I liked the most.

Barry Conrad
Savor, you mean?

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, so I don't know what that's going to be or am I or am I try like another steak cut But something savory. There's been so many options.

This this actually might be this might be one of my favorite menus that we've looked at

Barry Conrad
Honestly, it's pretty extensive and not just for filler. Like it's all looks really good and really detailed. So I'm about that.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Let me guess. You're going to get... Oh, they... No, wait, hold on. I keep looking.

Are you going to get the... What is the... Oh, chocolate churros. I don't like... Even when I ate sweets, I never really liked churros. Do you?

Barry Conrad
I mean, it's pretty hit and miss, like if it's really fresh and like, if they're not too hard, like I'll have it, but it's definitely not like, or like, let me get it, you know, like, that's my last thing that I get, you know.

Melanie Avalon
So what would you get?

Barry Conrad
I would probably because there's no chocolate cake which is my favorite or red velvet cake or something.

Melanie Avalon
Are you going to get the delica exotica?

Barry Conrad
Yes. Delica Exotica, so it's 33% opal is white chocolate, which I don't, I don't love white chocolate, but I'm going to go for that because it's the only chocolate cake with coconut sorbet and mango passion center, which sounds pretty good.

Awesome.

Melanie Avalon
Well, we actually do have to do this because it's at Disney World, it's a Michelin star and I have the gift card. So we actually have to.

Barry Conrad
We're going. We'll just have the reservation from 6 to 8.30 because there's a lot to get through, a lot of food.

Melanie Avalon
Yeah, what are their hours? They're open 6 to 10. There's a live Spanish guitarist on Wednesdays and Saturdays from 6 to 9. We have to go on a Wednesday or a Saturday.

Barry Conrad
Saturday for sure more vibey

Melanie Avalon
We have to go on a Saturday. It sounds good. Yay, well that was fun.

Barry Conrad
That was really fun.

Melanie Avalon
Good find. Thank you. I saw I was reading the article about the Michelin stars and I was like, Oh my goodness, this is perfect. Okay. Oh, and I didn't even tell the reason the purpose of that section, which was because fasting. It's not just about the fasting.

It's also about the eating and enjoying the food and nourishing your body and so many of the benefits of fasting actually happen from the eating. So, all right. I think that's all the things if listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show. They can directly email questions at I have podcast.com or they can go to I have podcast.com. They can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. We are I have podcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Barry is Barry underscore Conrad. And I think that's all the things the show notes out the show notes will be at I have podcast.com slash episode for 32. Anything from you, Barry, before we go.

Barry Conrad
No, thanks so much for tuning in everyone and we'll catch you next time.

Melanie Avalon
I will talk to you next week. Bye.

See you. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Jul 21

Episode #431 – Special Guest Courtney Peterson, IF Protocols, Muscle Preservation, Aging & Autophagy, Meal Timing, Hormonal Effects, Starting IF Tips, Cognitive Benefits, Diet Quality, IF Myths, Future Research, And More!

Welcome to Special Guest Episode 431 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.

Dr. Courtney Peterson is an Associate Professor in Nutrition Sciences at the University of Alabama at Birmingham and an internationally-recognized researcher in the field of intermittentfasting and meal timing. Dr. Peterson conducted some of the first studies of a type of intermittent fasting called time-restricted eating (TRE; daily intermittent fasting) in humans. Her research has shown that iTRE induces weight loss, alters hunger, improves blood sugar, lowers blood pressure, decreases oxidative stress, and activates anti-aging pathways—and that many of these effects are independent of weight loss. Currently, she is the lead or co-lead scientist on some of the largest studies of intermittent fasting in humans, including in patients with type 2 diabetes, prediabetes, and cancer. Her research has been featured in more than 100 media outlets, including NBC Nightly News, The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, TheWashington Post, Good Morning America, and the BBC.

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If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 431 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment, so pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine. If it's that time, then get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Barry Conrad
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Barry Conrad, and this is episode number 431. I'm genuinely stoked about today's episode. It's a special one.

A little while ago, a bit of backstory here for you. I was trying to do a deep dive into some intermittent fasting research, and I came across this study. And I could only find the abstract, and so it had an email, and I reached out to this person. And I'm like, hey, do you have the study, the full thing? And she's like, well, actually, it's a series of studies that I've done, but I'd love to actually be on your podcast if you'd have me. And the person I'm talking about is internationally renowned researcher Dr. Courtney Peterson. Welcome to the show, Courtney.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Thank you, Barry and Melanie, for having me here.

Barry Conrad
It's such a pleasure to have you here. We we always bring a study to start our show off.

And so I was really, really interested in what I found. I mean, you trained in metabolism and nutrition at Pennington Biomedical Research Center, and in chronobiology at Brigham and Women's Hospital. Let's go right to the beginning. What sparked your interest in terminal fasting? And what point did that start? Let's go all the way to the beginning.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Yeah, so 17 years ago, a long time ago, I was in graduate school for physics. And this was the sort of dawn of podcasts. And I remember one day just being in the kitchen, and I heard a podcast about a new study, where they had asked people to eat in a four hour window, and fast the remaining 20 hours a day. And on the podcast, they said, Oh, the participants, they, the people in the study, they had so many different benefits, it was great for their health. And I thought, Wow, that sounds extreme, but I've never shied away from anything that was extreme.

And I thought, Well, that sounds really interesting. And then over the next maybe two or three years, I got really intrigued by the power of fasting. And this was all through, you know, just reading health forums online. And, and I got to thinking, okay, other types of fasting, I mean, it would be wonderful to do periodic water only fast for a few days at a time, but that's probably too extreme for most people. So if you wanted to get the most anti aging benefits, what should you do? And I sort of came to the conclusion, the answer is probably daily intermittent fasting, because you can do it more often and get a little bit of the benefit every day. And so around I guess this was 2010, I started practicing it myself and was quite impressed. And then in 2011, I switched careers and knew I wanted to study either intermittent fasting or healthy diets. And I reached out to one of the first researchers who had done an intermittent fasting study in humans and joined his lab. And the rest is sort of history. And that launched my career till today where I run I now run one of the largest research labs in the world that studies intermittent fasting in humans.

Barry Conrad
That's incredible. Going back to switching to nutrition, you mentioned previously that you were interested in astrophysics.

What's the connection between astrophysics? How did you get from there to nutrition? It's a bit of fasting. That's a big chasm. What happened there?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
No natural leap there, but I was studying the physics of the early universe less than a second after the Big Bang. Why do we think there are galaxies and clusters of galaxies in the universe today? I just got to the end of my work and I realized most of probably our theories of the early universe are going to be wrong.

At the time, I was influenced by graduation speeches by Steve Jobs where he was saying if he had too many days in a row where if he died the next day, he wouldn't be happy with what he was working on. My version of this was if I fast-forwarded 30 years from now and I look back on my career and I had failed, would I be glad I took the risk? I couldn't say that for astrophysics and I'd always been interested in nutrition. I even really was interested in bodybuilding for a while in my teens, so I just made the switch because I just realized that food has such a powerful ability to serve as medicine. I really wanted to help that field advance and help save more lives.

Barry Conrad
That's incredible. Bodybuilding, even, that's not something that I saw you saying on this podcast. What's the deal there?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
I did for a short stint in middle school, and this was back in the 80s when my parents didn't know what to do with a teenage girl interested in weightlifting, but I still carry my knowledge of rep ranges and weight ranges and set ranges for different, you know, growth versus strength versus power targets. But just to say, I've always been really impressed and fascinated by how powerful lifestyle approaches are for improving our health and slowing the aging process.

Barry Conrad
Right. And not only are you the principal investigator for several clinical trials on time restricted eating, and as you said, like one of the largest labs, what have been some of the most surprising findings or challenges from leading studies of like the scale, like such a massive scale?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Yeah, so I'll even just start with a little bit of background on intermittent fasting that's pertinent to aging. Some of the first research done on intermittent fasting actually dates back to the 1940s. It was based on work in the 1930s showing that eating a low-calorie diet, which we now call calorie restriction, which your listeners can just think of as standard calorie counting, so eating fewer calories extends lifespan. It does so quite powerfully. It dramatically slows the aging process. If you do this in mice and rats, they can live up to 40% longer, which is huge. Back in the 1930s and 40s, they were like, well, I don't know if people will do this. I wonder if people would do calorie restriction or calorie counting intermittently and whether it could still extend lifespan. One of the first studies that was actually done on intermittent fasting was done in the late 40s. They found, indeed, that if you fast periodically, so not all the time, that it actually did extend lifespan, and it also reduced the rate at which the rats developed cancer, too.

It had other benefits in proving healthspan. Then research petered along for several decades. Then around the turn of the century, in 2003, there was a very famous scientist who we often think of as the founder, the modern-day father of intermittent fasting research, Mark Mattson. He was having a debate with one of his researchers in the lab. They were debating whether the benefits of calorie restriction were, indeed, due to the animals eating less or if it was because they were eating all their food so quickly, so inadvertently fasting for longer each day. They put this to the test, and they did a study, and they found, actually, that it looks like intermittent fasting has benefits independent of how much you eat, that there's something special about having periodic fasting that can improve brain health and blood sugar control in this particular study. Then fast forward to 2018, and there was a study showing that, actually, in fact, at least 40% of the life-extending benefits of calorie restriction or calorie counting are not due to eating less. They're due to having a longer fasting period. Then, just two years ago, we've actually learned that intermittent fasting is actually more powerful than cutting calories for extending lifespan, at least in animals. We now have four or five different studies showing that intermittent fasting, particularly daily intermittent fasting, extends lifespan in animals. That's where the animal research takes us today, and then I'm happy also to talk about some of the human research, too, but I'll pause there.

Barry Conrad
Right. Well, you know, Mark Metzen, as you mentioned, you know, he had that study, the OMAD study with three meals a day, over 11 days, and you know, with equal calories in both groups, and how they found that the greater weight and they had greater weight in fat loss, but also greater loss in lean mass and bone density.

So from then to now, has the research and the findings changed? Because for someone like myself, I do OMAD, I am big in the gym, I'm all about protein, all about muscle, and I bring that to the podcast as a co-host. Do I have something to be afraid of, Courtney, in terms of losing muscle? Because I don't actually find that I do lose muscle. I find that fasting has been really protective of muscles. So yeah.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Yeah, the answers depends on how long you fast. So the best research we have suggests that as long as you're fasting for not longer than 36 hours at a time, there's no issue with losing muscle mass.

My lab has shown this. We at one point had the largest data on muscle mass and body fat in individuals, and we found absolutely no negative effects on muscle mass. There was another really great study that looks specifically at muscle protein synthesis, and they found that it does not negatively affect muscle protein synthesis. The one small thing that happens is when you do intermittent fasting, you lose a little bit more, what's called body water, but a little bit more fluid. Now for a lot of people, they're excited about this because it means you're basically retaining less fluid and you're less bloated. And one of the benefits of retaining less food is it actually drops your blood pressure too, which is awesome. So it in particular decreases something called extracellular water. So in some of these studies, the effects they're finding on muscle mass could just be to losing some extra body water because it's such a small effect. For longer periods of fasting, like 36 hours, there is data suggesting that people are losing a little bit more lean mass. So I don't recommend fasting longer than 36 hours.

But one more encouraging piece of data is there now have been probably close to a dozen studies in athletes or resistance trained athletes. And those studies found absolutely no negative effects of intermittent fasting on your ability to have strength gains, or your ability to build muscle, or your ability to perform during any sort of athletic feat.

So no super positive effects either, but at least there are no negative effects there. So you can do intermittent fasting and train as usual.

Barry Conrad
That's really good news for me. You know, a lot of gym bureaus or people that know that I do intermittent fasting, particularly guys in the social media space, fitness influencers or whatnot, they're like, that's misinformation.

You need to eat before you train. How can you fast? So the science is constantly showing that's not the case. You don't need to feel your muscles right before going to the gym or even consume protein right after the gym, right after resistance training. Right.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Correct. Yeah. The one caveat I will say is we don't know yet, we don't have good data on OMAD. We know for other forms of daily intermittent fasting, like if you're eating in an eight hour window, a 10 hour window and a six hour window, none of those windows seem to have any negative effects on muscle mass. So meaning if you're fasting for up to 18 hours a day, there are no issues.

We just, we only have like a very small number of studies on OMAD, so we don't know for certain. And the reason I bring that up for OMAD is because I guess classically people have thought, okay, you need to space your protein throughout the day. And there's sort of people have often cited a threshold of you can only absorb, you know, up to like 40 grams per meal, but you need to space it out throughout the day. So there may be something there, but we just don't know the answers yet. But most research suggests absolutely no problem.

Barry Conrad
Before we get into aging a bit more, we actually get a lot of questions, Courtney, on the podcast about, you know, should I do longer fasts? For example, 24 to 48 hours, do you think those have unique anti-aging benefits over daily eye protocols such as like an 18.6 or 19.5 or 24, and if, yes, how so?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Such a great question. A hard question to answer too.

So let me give you examples of certain types of intermittent fasting. So fasting one day a week for 24 hours, we do find that lowers body weight, helps people lose weight. It also helps lower blood sugar levels and it reduces the risk of something we call metabolic syndrome, but you can just think of things like high blood pressure, cholesterol levels, elevated blood sugar levels. That said, that's only, you know, fasting one day a week is actually probably less effective than daily intermittent fasting and improving those same things. And it might just be like the daily dose of extending your fast by say four hours or something like that seems to be a little bit more powerful than a one day a week, 24 hour water only fast for your listeners who are willing to go to a greater extreme than daily intermittent fasting. For instance, there's something called the fasting mimicking diet, where you pick three to five days in a row to eat a very low calorie diet. And the way you can think about it is it's equivalent to eating about one meal a day. And the meal is supposed to be plant based in low in protein. And that type of approach is supposed to give you a lot of the benefits of extended fasting. So for instance, increasing stem cell production around day four and day five, it's also supposed to increase the topology, which is a form of sort of cellular recycling of worn out proteins, and do a bunch of other things. And there was a cool study just out last year showing that that type of approach doing that. So doing this for five days in a row and repeating it once a month for three months reduces someone's biological age, or how young or old their body acts by about two and a half years. So we're starting to see an effect there. They're, they're just not very unfortunately, they're not, there's not a lot of research comparing one type of intermittent fasting to another type of intermittent fasting. So it's hard to say one is better or worse per se. But broad sweeping, there are even more extreme forms of intermittent fasting. Like if you have what we call severe obesity, there's a form of intermittent fasting known as alternate day fasting, where every other day, you have a complete water only fast. So pretty extreme, and you can lose a massive amount of weight from doing it. But most people just can't follow it. And so a lot of the more extreme forms of intermittent fasting, like every other day, you either have a 24 hour water only fast or you one meal a day, studies have just found that people can't sustain that in the long term. And even with the fasting mimicking diet, you know, some patients struggle to maintain that as well. So we're finding the research is showing us that the daily intermittent fasting is most is easiest for most people. And most people are able to stick with it about five to six days a week on average over the long haul.

Barry Conrad
Right speaking of adf there's also the prescription that you can have you know up to five hundred calories on those down days is that still something that you find was it more effective if it's just water on those down days.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
It's probably more effective to have just water on those down days, but the problem is it's just really hard for people to stick with those approaches in the long term.

So I generally would recommend alternate day modified fasting or eating that 500 calories on that down day.

Barry Conrad
Right. And, and so Courtney, for new listeners or for those you've tuned in who don't know, can you dive into what primary versus secondary aging means and where intermittent fasting helps most?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Yeah, absolutely. So when we think of the aging process, we actually think of it in two ways. The first is called primary aging. And that's classically what most people think about when they think about aging. So it's this concept that over time, your body gets sort of worn out. So these are kind of the classic hallmarks of aging. So it's things like your body becomes a little bit more frail, there's more molecular damage in the body, you know, your blood sugar might be a little bit elevated over time. But this is just sort of the normal, you know, process of your body becoming worn out over time.

And so we call that primary aging. Secondary aging is the idea that as you age, you become more at risk of certain diseases, we call them comorbidities, but you can just think of them as diseases. So aging itself is one of the biggest risk factors for multiple diseases. So that includes things like dementia, cardiovascular disease, stroke, diabetes, hypertension, even something called COPD, which is a lung disease. But there are a bunch of diseases and even other conditions like even hip fractures that we know you're at a much greater risk as you age. And so we often in the field of aging research, we often look at both like, can we help slow down that sort of biological aging or that natural process of wear and tear? And can we also help people live healthier by helping them avoid some of these chronic diseases?

Barry Conrad
Right. We often hear, you know, intermittent fasting can have such powerful effects on aging. And I really do believe that. And I find that in my own life as well. Like I'll have people say, you know, like you look younger now than you did 10 years ago. And you know, that's, that's a flex, but it's true.

And I really can only put that down to fasting. What are the actual biological mechanisms behind that though? So from, for people who don't know from autophagy to hormone regulation to inflammation, can you sort of walk us through how IF could help support healthier aging, like on a cellular level?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
The biggest thing that we've looked at in terms of research is its effects on helping people lose weight. And we have a really good consensus in the field that basically any form of intermittent fasting helps people lose weight. Some of them, the more extreme versions, help people lose weight faster. So for instance, for alternate day fasting, where every other day you have a complete 24 hour water only fast, people can lose 5% of their body weight in just four weeks. So for someone who weighs 200 pounds, you're suddenly down 10 pounds in just four weeks. And so pretty rapid.

And now on the other end of the spectrum is daily intermittent fasting, the one that's most popular. And we call that time restricted eating, or TRE. And it basically involves eating in a 10 hour window or less and fasting for the remaining 14 or more hours of the day. The most popular form of time restricted eating is known as the 16A diet, where you fast for 16 hours a day and eat in an eight hour window. There are now over 125 studies on this, and about 75% to 80% of them all conclude that people lose weight. So if you kind of average the results across all those studies, the effect is sort of moderate weight loss. And to put that in kind of simpler terms, we are finding that it allows people to cut their calories by about 250 calories a day. So that's equivalent to losing about half a pound a week in the average person. We found that in our lab, and we're the first to kind of report that. And then that's been other research labs have found similarly, it helps you lose about a half a pound a week. In the early days, so this is several years ago, we didn't know how intermittent fasting helped people lose weight. We weren't sure if it was because it helped them burn more calories or if it's because it lowers appetite. And what we now know is it absolutely does not help you burn more calories, no magic calorie burning strategy, but it does help people naturally eat less. And we've found in my lab in particular that affects the hormone called ghrelin. So ghrelin is a cute hunger hormone. And it is one of the main signals that your body uses to determine when to eat and how much to eat. And we found that this time restricted eating or daily intermittent fasting lowers ghrelin levels in the morning. And then the really interesting thing is it also seems to increase satiety in the evening, or at least the middle of the evening. So around 8 p.m., we find that people actually are much more satisfied and crave less food. And we also found that it reduces leptin levels, which is a molecule secreted by your body's sort of body fat and helps tell those cells whether they want to, whether you should eat more or less. So we found favorable effects or good effects on leptin too. So it seems like a bunch of these hormones that are all involved in sort of regulating your appetite are positively affected. And then the really super interesting thing is we also ask people like, just tell us how hungry you are, you know, throughout the day, which sometimes is a better measure of whether something's gonna be effective or not.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
And the fascinating thing is we found with intermittent fasting, hunger levels were more even keeled throughout the day, which is the exact opposite of what I would have expected because I would have expected with intermittent fasting, you might yo-yo between being super hungry and super full. And we found the opposite. People didn't report being, you know, super hungry or super full. They were just kind of more even keeled.

And part of that could be because we've, my lab has found and other labs have found, we were the first to find it, that actually when you do intermittent fasting, it actually lowers your blood sugar levels throughout the day. So you don't get as much of a spike in your blood sugar levels. And we know that spikes in blood sugar levels can trigger hunger hormone. So if you have a big spike and then it comes crashing down, that can kind of trigger your liver to produce a hormone called glucagon, which can suddenly, you know, trigger you to become really hungry again. And so it might be by keeping blood sugar levels more even keeled, that's also causing hunger to be sort of more even keeled throughout the day. And so now we are very confident that intermittent fasting helps you lose weight. It's not a huge effect. So if you want to compare it to a weight loss medication like Osempic, Osempic causes you to lose far more weight, but the good news is it has far fewer side effects than Osempic. So Osempic, there's substantial excess loss of muscle mass. There are also, apparently Osempic was responsible for a large number of emergency room visits last year. It was about 25,000, which was just new research released in the last week, which is a huge number, which is not to say no one should take Osempic, but just to be aware, there are lots of people who don't want to take it and want to go the natural route. And so I think intermittent fasting is a great alternative for that.

On other fronts, on other sort of other ways that we know intermittent fasting works, we think it's not just one thing that it's doing in the body, we think it's doing a bunch of things. So one side, it's definitely improving appetite. The second side is we think it's improving blood sugar control. And we don't fully understand how yet, but what we do understand is that intermittent fasting seems to lower blood sugar levels. And it doesn't seem to be due to just one thing. So it seems like if you have a longer fasting period, that lowers blood sugar. Research from my lab has also showed that if you tend to eat a bunch of smaller meals or a bunch of meals in succession, you can get even a further blood sugar lowering effect. And what I mean by that is if you say you're eating your meals three or four hours apart while you're doing time restricted eating, so say you're eating at an eight hour period and you're still trying to be like, oh yeah, I'm gonna have three meals a day.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Now you're eating your meals about four hours apart. And what happens, we've found, is that when people are eating their meals three to four hours apart, when they start eating their next meal, their insulin levels or their blood sugar hormone insulin has not yet returned to sort of its normal fasting levels. And so it's still elevated. So if you then eat more food, well, your blood sugar hormone insulin is elevated. Insulin's like, hey guys, I'm here. I can just start moving the sugar out of your bloodstream and into your cells. And so as a result, it sort of prevents that extra spike in your blood sugar levels. And so maybe some benefit too from, you know, still eating, you know, like say three meals a day and not necessarily skipping a meal.

But it also looks like there's some benefits from the time of day that you eat. So most of the research that has reported a benefit for intermittent fasting, it has reported that intermittent fasting improves blood sugar, tends to have people eat earlier in the day. It's not universally true, but it seems that you can get an even bigger effect on improving your blood sugar if you eat earlier. And by earlier, I mean like have dinner by around like six, 6.30 at night. So it looks like there are a bunch of different, you know, I guess separate parts of intermittent fasting that could lower blood sugar. And then of course we know losing weight always lowers blood sugar. And then we also know intermittent fasting does improve blood pressure levels. And we've actually known this for over 50 years that when people fast and even like quite prolonged fasting can dramatically lower blood pressure level. And it seems to work by helping the body release a lot of excess water and salt that it's retaining. So it's again, it's sort of a little bit of a de-puffing, deep loading effect. And we understand some of the reasons why it happens and it's a bunch of different things. So there are hormones involved in blood sugar, sorry, blood pressure regulations such as aldosterone. And as you fast, that hormone goes up and I think it goes down initially. Yeah, it goes down initially and then goes up, but it helps support your body initially just get rid of a lot of water. And then over time, as you're fasting longer, it's like, oh, whoops, I do need to hold on to more water and salt. But the point being that there are a bunch of different things. And then also we know that when you lose weight, which intermittent fasting can do, it lowers those leptin levels from your fat cells and leptin itself can also lower blood pressure. So there are a bunch of different things there. Now, the interesting thing is we don't actually see big effects on cholesterol levels from intermittent fasting. It just doesn't seem to be either a big effect or intermittent fasting doesn't seem to affect it very much.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
That said, if you lose a lot of weight, then intermittent fasting will probably still lower your cholesterol levels. But if you lose a moderate amount of weight, we don't find that intermittent fasting is particularly great at lowering cholesterol levels per se, but it seems to be outstanding for improving blood sugar and blood pressure.

Barry Conrad
So many thoughts, Scotty. This is fascinating. You know, back in the day, I actually used to follow. Have you heard of that book, Body for Life?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
I have. I've never read it, but I'm aware of it. Yes, yes.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, and the whole situation was six meals a day. Six more meals a day because it speeds up your metabolism and you have to keep that fire burning. But what I found with that, like going back from here, is how many just lulls I had in the day. How many, spiking up and down, up and down.

What I love about fasting is that it just removes all that. And yeah, it definitely stabilizes you throughout the day. There's less decision fatigue around meals and what to eat. And I definitely find the benefits of that. And what you also said that stuck out to me was 10 hours. 10 hours, as little as 10 hours fasting. You're gonna see benefits there. You mentioned.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
10-hour eating window.

Barry Conrad
eating window. You also mentioned the, the when I was going to ask. So is it, is it more about the fasting length, Courtney, or is it when the fast happens early versus late? Because I eat, I'm kind of all over the place. I just sort of time it around my lifestyle.

It's not necessarily just the morning, just the evening, but it's usually around 4 PM ish, but that can often be later. So what are your thoughts on that? Is it about keeping it more uniform to see more benefits or is intermittent fasting just protective regardless of the time of day?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Yeah, all great questions. The answer is I think it's all of the above.

And let me also go back to your question. Let me also clever I'm not saying I think people should eat six meals a day. I certainly don't.

Barry Conrad
No, I don't know. No, no, I was more saying like what I noticed when I did eat that way compared to now, like it's a huge difference.

Like you don't have to eat all day to keep your metabolism spiked.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Correct. And we now know that's not true, that you don't have to like eat lots of meals throughout the day. And by and large, for the most part, it really doesn't I mean, certainly for weight loss, it doesn't look like the number of meals you eat per day makes a big difference. So you know, current current thinking is, you know, do what works for you.

Okay, so back to your great question. So I think the answer is, all three matter. And what I mean is the fasting duration matters. So longer fast, the better, in general, you know, up to a point up to the point of maybe 36 hours. Number two, time of day probably matters, but only for certain parts of your health. And I'll cover and I'll mention, I'll go into detail on what that means. And then third, the regularity seems to matter too. But we don't have a great understanding of it yet. But I'll tackle each of these. So the great news is for weight loss, it does not look like it matters very much what time of day you do intermittent fasting. So that's fantastic news. So there may be a small benefit from eating early in the day. But by and large, it looks like no matter what time of day, you practice time restricted eating or intermittent fasting, you're going to get a weight loss benefit, which is awesome.

The one caveat I will say is we're starting to see the amount of weight loss for a 10 hour eating window is not as good as for an eight hour window. If you're able to do eight hours, I would recommend that our data, the research at least is so much more compelling for eight hours, we see clearly better benefits for eight hours as opposed to 10 hours. So if you can do that, great. If not do 10 and just rock 10. I usually recommend that people start at 10 and then work their way down if they can. On the question of blood sugar, it looks like the time of day that you practice time restricted eating matters. And when we look at all the research that's been done, it looks like eating windows that end by 6pm tend to improve blood sugar levels. And then eating windows that end after 6pm don't. This is largely true, but there's always like there's always a caveat, right? So if you lose a lot of weight, no matter what time of day you do intermittent fasting, you're going to get a blood sugar benefit because weight loss, you know, is always going to help you help improve your blood sugar. But if you don't lose a lot of weight, and you're just doing this to roughly maintain your weight, you're going to get a much bigger blood sugar benefit from eating early in the day.

That said, that's not practical for everyone. But if you can do it, that's great. And the reason why we think this is the case is your body has an internal biological clock known as the circadian system. And the circadian system helps your body be better at doing different things at different times of the day. So for instance, your best sports performance and your greatest muscular strength and your fastest reaction times are in the middle of the afternoon. So like this is where you're going to get your sort of best if you are, you know, an Olympic athlete, that's when you're going to get your best performance.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Conversely, at nighttime, your body starts to produce the sleep hormone melatonin. So that's the best time at night to sleep.

And in the morning, that's when you have your greatest testosterone production and also when most people have their best blood sugar control. And we also know that when you eat in the morning, you burn very slightly more calories when you eat in the morning than when you eat in the evening. Now, it's not a huge effect. It's, you know, about equivalent to eating a few extra bites of apple. But the point being, we have a bunch of evidence suggesting that your metabolism is kind of like optimally suited to eat food earlier in the day. And by early in the day, I would say, you know, the best time of day is probably about mid morning, mid to late morning. So about like the 10 11am windows, that's when we find the body is most sensitive to the blood sugar hormone insulin. So that's when your muscle cells and your fat cells are both are most like, Oh, yeah, if you give me sugar, I can take it up quickly and keep your blood sugar in a good range. What's really interesting is we discovered in the late 1960s, early 1970s, that if you give someone a blood sugar test, or a meal, say at in you know, in the morning at 9am in the afternoon at 3pm and in the evening at 8pm. their blood sugar levels will spike significantly higher in the afternoon, in the evening, even though they're eating the same meal. In fact, the effect is so large, people, for instance, who have prediabetes as measured by a blood sugar test in the morning, they're metabolically equivalent to being diabetic when they eat dinner at night. It's like your body's almost in a different state of metabolism across the day. If you can eat more of your food early in the day, and by early in the day, we can take this in a couple of different directions. One is you can just do intermittent fasting and say like, hey, I'm going to make breakfast and lunch my largest meals of the day. Or you can even say, hey, I'm going to follow the old adage of eating breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince, and dinner like a pauper. Some people might say, hey, look, I can't move dinner earlier, or I'm not willing to eat breakfast later, I got kids, or I've got my job or something like that. For those folks, I would say, don't worry about it. Just try to make breakfast and or lunch your largest meals of the day. Make dinner like your salad meal or your super healthy meal. For folks who can do intermittent fasting, I would say, if you can eat early in the day, great, do it. If you can't skip breakfast, still do the intermittent fasting, and just try to avoid eating right before bedtime. And you're still going to get a lot of those benefits.

And blood pressure is also similar in that in a bunch of studies, we're seeing that intermittent fasting or eating early in the day seems to be better at lowering blood pressure than eating late in the day.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
So there are at least some aspects of health that seem to be influenced more by the time of day that we eat rather than the fasting duration, or just that you can get a bigger benefit from eating earlier in the day than you can by having a longer fast. But we're still trying to figure out all of this and make sense of it.

So my lab has a study right now, a really big study where we're comparing doing intermittent fasting early versus late in the day. And we're not allowing people to lose weight. And we want to kind of know the question, are there sort of intrinsic benefits? But there are studies, really interesting studies showing that if you skip breakfast, even if you do intermittent fasting, this seems to potentially not really improve your blood sugar levels, even though you you would hope it would are in some of these studies, it's actually meaning making blood sugar worse. Now my sort of counter argument is most of these studies are only like a day long or six days long. And so we are in our current study, we're testing this for a much longer period of time, because we suspect the body adapts over time and gets better, you know, at certain things at different times of the day. So for instance, when people do Ramadan intermittent fasting by only eating at night, we find after about a month, their hunger hormones change what time of day they're secreted. So the body adapts over time. So I'm hoping about a year from now, if you call me up, we'll have an even clearer answer of the effects on blood sugar. But this is the best, what we know based on the best research that we have.

Barry Conrad
amazing information. We actually talked about Ramadan fasting a couple of weeks ago. It's really fascinating because it is different how they don't, they only have nothing, they don't even have water.

So the results in terms of muscle losses, that's actually different. So can you talk about the difference between Ramadan, EG having nothing compared to having black coffee throughout the day compared to having 500 calories on a down day of ADF? How is muscle affected compared to regular intermittent fasting and Ramadan fasting?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Yeah, Ramadan fasting is such a hard topic. I often shy away from it because it's hard.

But just for your listeners, Ramadan intermittent fasting is typically fasting during daylight hours. And it's what you might call complete fasting or another term would be dry fasting, which means you eat no food and no water while the sun is out. And then you'll start eating, you know, after dusk. But you can also eat before dawn. And what's super interesting is the way people practice Ramadan fasting, intermittent fasting is so different. And what I mean by that is some people eat before the sun rises. And again, after immediately after the sun sets, and they still eating pretty healthily. Other people might eat nothing in the morning, stay up late at night and then eat around 12. So if you look at all the research that's been done on Ramadan intermittent fasting, some studies find people get unhealthier during the month of Ramadan. And other studies report that people get healthier or it has no effect on health, it really just depends on what people do.

And often during that month, people often change what they eat. So it becomes really hard to kind of see the forest through the trees, so to speak. So it's hard for me to have a good answer on that. I do I am aware of some studies that show that Ramadan intermittent fasting negatively influences muscle mass. I'm also aware of some studies suggesting that Ramadan intermittent fasting do done during a certain trimester, a pregnancy is linked to lower IQ scores. And I apologize, I just can't remember which trimester it is. I think there are some cautions. But again, it I think it's it's all in the devil's and the details. I think it's how you do it. I think if you do it, well, you're in a good position. But if you use it as an excuse, or if it, you know, I don't even mean to cast it that negative. But if if you do it and inadvertently end up, you know, effectively binging and eating unhealthily, because you've been fasting all day, including dry fasting, then it's probably not great.

And then the other issue is the sleep disruption. So it can disrupt sleep. And it's definitely not eating in alignment with the circadian rhythm. So for non religious reasons, I would not recommend it, you know, and then obviously, for religious reasons, I think, you know, it's important to to just say, you know, do whatever works for you there.

Barry Conrad
I'm from South Africa, Courtney, and my mom, one of her best friends was Muslim. She was married to a Muslim man, and we always would go over to their place during Ramadan because when the sun went down, we had this massive feast and we'd just eat with them.

But it was definitely, you know, it's not a sort of a quote unquote diet that you prescribe on the daily. It's sort of like, as you said, some people could maybe get unhealthy.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Correct. And people often do it for spiritual purposes. And for that, I understand it can be absolutely transformative. I'm just talking more about the health aspects.

Barry Conrad
Speaking of the devil being in the details, Courtney, can you break down for our listeners in simple terms how intermittent fasting actually influences biological age? Or the key markers of health span? And if so, how strong is the evidence? What is your latest take on that for our listeners?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Great. So let's switch to primary aging, which is super fun. So one of the really interesting things we've learned from animal studies is we now kind of understand why intermittent fasting extends lifespan. So in science, we can sometimes do what are called knockout studies, which means we can block a certain gene from doing its job. And so people have experimented with, if I block this gene, can intermittent fasting still extend lifespan? And what we found is that it looks like intermittent fasting extends lifespan by increasing autophagy. So autophagy, it's sort of a, well, I guess the root origin of the word is self-eating. But it's this concept that cells are constantly sort of rejuvenating themselves. And one of the way they do this is they take out worn out and damaged proteins. And they sort of break them down and then recycle those components. And so when autophagy is higher, what that means is more of those damaged proteins are being recycled, and then new proteins are taking their place. And what we found is that intermittent fasting dramatically increases autophagy. But if you kind of knock out that gene or you prevent those autophagy genes from doing their job, intermittent fasting can't extend lifespan. So this tells us very clearly that it's autophagy that allows intermittent fasting to increase lifespan.

And my lab a few years ago, we were looking at certain aging-related pathways. And we definitely found that intermittent fasting, this time-restricted eating in particular, did increase one of the key autophagy genes. And so we see clear evidence that it's increasing autophagy the same way in people. And we also, in our study, we were measuring how many calories people were burning in the middle of the night. We did find that there seemed to be a little bit more protein turnover, which may sound like a bad thing, but it's not a bad thing. Because if you're sort of recycling more proteins, that's a good thing. Other things that we see, so when we think of aging, let me take one step backwards. We now have this sort of framework for viewing aging, and we have what we call, I think we're up to 12 or 13 different hallmarks of aging. And you can just think of these as components of aging. So sort of key drivers of aging are things like, we think your body produces less stem cells as you age, it creates more, there's more damage in your mitochondria as you age. So mitochondria, the little factories within cells that generate energy, we find that the bacteria in your gut sort of decline with age, or there are some problems with them with age. Your body's immune system is not as good as fighting disease with age. There's more molecular damage, such as oxidative stress with age, but there are a bunch of these things that happen with age. We have also found in my lab, one very cool thing, which is intermittent fasting helps reduce.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
a type of molecular damage called oxidative stress, which is effectively from electrons bumping around and just creating damage in the body. And we were able to show that intermittent fasting reduces this oxidative stress, even if you don't lose weight, which means if you are just into healthy aging, you don't even want to lose weight, you can get some of these anti-aging effects.

And I now know of at least two studies that have found that intermittent fasting for, gosh, let's see, one study they tested the effects after eight weeks and the other was about 12 weeks or three months. And both studies found that just doing intermittent fasting for that shorter time period reversed biological age by about two and a half years. So that's super cool. And now we're getting better and better technologies for estimating someone's true biologic age. So definitely watch this space. Other things that I think are really exciting coming down the pipeline, I'm involved in a study right now where we're looking at whether intermittent fasting can increase stem cell production by the body, which would be amazing. And one of our thoughts is maybe it can because we know calorie restriction can increase stem cells in the body. And so we'll be looking at that.

There is some evidence that intermittent fasting can improve the immune system, but it's not through sort of classic immune molecules that are released. It seems to empower certain types of immune cells more to target disease. So for instance, it helps with some of the T cells that are really good at killing cancer cells. It helps increase T cells that are better at killing cancer cells.

And then it also lowers a hormone called insulin-like growth factor one. And this particular hormone can stimulate the growth of cancers. So in general, we want lower levels. And the great thing we know about intermittent fasting is it does lower insulin or this IGF-1 level in the body. So we think there are just like a bunch of ways or different aspects of aging that intermittent fasting is really targeting.

Barry Conrad
It's amazing. You know, Courtney, you touched on autophagy, and it's one of the most it's one of the most talked about benefits of fasting, but it can seem ambiguous or mysterious to people.

So from what we know, when does autophagy actually start to ramp up in a fast and how long do you need to go without food to really see a kick in?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Yeah, so typically about 11 to 13 hours of fasting in humans is around the time we'll start to see more dramatic increases in autophagy. And it's really important to for people to know that autophagy is really increased while you sleep. And that's really the best time of day. So I'm going to also get on my general health horse here and recommend that people get good overnight sleep. And honestly, that would be my top recommendation followed by intermittent fasting second.

But my number one recommendation for autophagy would be good sleep while it's dark outside. One other study I do want to mention is last year there was a great study looking also at brain aging. And they similarly found that about eight weeks of intermittent fasting reduced brain aging by the equivalent of a little over two years. And they also found that an improved executive function and learning and memory. And then we also have data from our lab showing that intermittent fasting increases something called brain derived neurotropic factor, which is just a fancy name for a little hormone that helps stimulate neurons in the brain to sort of regenerate and to survive.

Barry Conrad
Amazing. Courtney, question for you. Is a calorie a calorie a calorie? So how important are food choices?

Because a lot of people when they do come to me asking, heard about this intermittent fasting thing, you can eat whatever you want, right? Is that quote unquote true? How important are dietary choices?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Yeah, so I'm going to answer that in a couple of different ways. So one, you can still get the benefits of intermittent fasting, even if you don't improve your diet. I do still think, based on the best research, it's probably more important to eat a healthy diet than to do intermittent fasting or engage in meal timing, but I think they're both really important for health. And that's what we're learning.

Like both, you can dramatically improve your health by eating the right things and eating at the right time of day. So you can definitely get the benefits of intermittent fasting without eating a healthy diet. I still recommend eating a healthy diet. And my biggest recommendation there is just to eat whole foods. Kevin Hall, who was at BNIH until recently, big research on ultra processed foods kind of showed the worst thing that you can do is to eat ultra processed food. When people eat ultra processed foods, they often overeat by 500 calories at a time. So if your listeners can do one thing, I would say stick to whole foods as much as possible. Ignore about like, you know, all carbs are bad and stuff like that. I do recommend avoiding high glycemic index for carbs, but I think whole fruit is great. Whole grains, as long as it's not overly processed, is also great. But there are some whole grains that are a little too processed that I think get sort of lumped in with, you know, healthier whole grains.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, Courtney, what protocol do you follow? Can I ask, what do you, 18.6, 16.8, OMAD?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Yeah, absolutely. So prior to having kids, I typically ate within a six to eight hour window. I like four meals a day, but I'm also fine doing three. I usually do four, just because I really like that.

And right now, so I just weaned my second kid from breastfeeding a few months ago, I'm eating in within more like I would say an eight to 10 hour window, depending on the day, but I plan to eventually move back to eight hours or less. And when I go out to eat, I just do what everyone else is doing. I just don't sweat it.

Barry Conrad
Yeah, me too. I'm the same way. It's not the end of the world. It's what you do most of the time. That's sort of my train of thought.

We get this question a lot on the podcast. How long should you eat? What does OMAD mean? This is maybe controversial to ask, but Courtney, what is one meal a day? Is it one plate? Is it in four hours? What does OMAD actually mean, in your opinion?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
I've seen, among scientists, I've seen sort of two definitions. One is one meal a day, and the other one is eating within a four-hour period or less. I don't think we have a good consensus on it, but I think either of those are reasonable ways to look at it.

Generally when I've seen OMAD in the literature, the shortest eating period I've seen people quote is an hour and a half, I think, an hour to an hour and a half, and the longest I've seen is a four-hour period, if that's helpful. So I generally think of less than four hours if it's a single eating instance as OMAD.

Barry Conrad
Yeah. And speaking of just different opinions and views out there with so many voices on social media now and science constantly evolving, there seems there's a new health claim every day. So some are more evidence-based than others.

What are some of the biggest myths or misconceptions about intermittent fasting that you'd like to set the record straight about?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Ah, that's a good question. I see, it's very interesting because I see extremes on either end of the spectrum. And what I mean by that is I see both people in the general public and other scientists say intermittent fasting is the greatest thing ever and improves everything about your health and you're going to magically transform. That's not true.

The effects are moderate, but I think they build so nicely over time. And we can still get quite dramatic improvements in blood sugar and blood pressure levels in people as long as they stick with it over time. Weight loss effect is moderate. Like I said, I mean, you're going to get bigger effects with ozmpic, but I mean, what a great tool to maintain your weight or even lose a moderate amount of weight. And then to slow the aging process. I suspect if you accumulate this over decades, you're going to be in a great position. But I also see people on the other end of the spectrum, including many dietitians completely poo-pooing it or other scientists saying there's nothing to look at here. It's just a fancy way to cut calories and research in my lab and other labs have shown like even if you don't cut calories, you can still get some benefits.

And some of the benefits and improving oxidative stress were also independent of what time of day you eat. So we, I think, you know, for those of us who actually really know the science out there, I think they're clear benefits. I think they're moderate benefits. I'm still really excited about it.

I think we're going to help a lot of people. Estimates are now roughly 10% of the population or of US adults are following intermittent fasting, which is roughly the same number who are ozmpic. So I think the science is there. And I'm hopeful that in the next, hopefully the next five to seven years, we'll have dietary guidelines saying that intermittent fasting is effective. And if you can do any sort of strategic meal timing, you should do it.

Barry Conrad
Amazing. And Courtney, for people who might be new to IF, what's one practical takeaway that an audience can implement starting today? They're new, brand new to it. What's one thing?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Oh, great question. The first, I mean, my usual advice for newcomers is the following. Start with a 10-hour window, adjust to that, and then see if you can push it lower and experiment and find a sweet spot. If it just doesn't work for you, two things are really important to know. So one, we have found that generally it takes people a while to adapt to it. So some people say, oh, I'm never hungry at this time of day or I can't do this. We find that it actually, when people first switch to an intermittent fasting diet, it temporarily feels hard. And then after a month, many people start feeling like, okay, I'm getting the hang of this and I'm adapting. So if it feels hard in the beginning, hang in there, give it a little longer try, because your body's just adapting to eating at a different time at day. So it takes a while for those hunger hormones to transition to make you hungry on your new schedule and to sort of overcome that inertia. Yeah, and just be patient.

And it's not an all or nothing. So a lot of people will say to me like, oh, I thought I had to do it every day of the week and I was like, no, five or six days a week, you're gonna get most of the benefits. So don't sweat it. This is not black or white by any means.

Barry Conrad
Amazing advice. I think I'm going to steal that, start with the 10 hours and see how you go. What excites you most, Courtney, about future fasting research? What's next on the horizon for you?

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Yeah. So we are currently, I say we, but I'm part of a larger team. We're hoping to do a five-year study, which would be amazing, of intermittent fasting and comparing it to calorie counting for slowing the aging process. So that's huge. This would be a giant study funded by the largest federal agency or the federal government in the U.S. So we're crossing our fingers that that gets funded, but we would be looking at whether we can slow the aging process over five years, which has never been done before. So super excited about that.

And then we have two studies in my lab right now where we're trying to see if we can improve people's blood sugar control, people who have type 2 diabetes, and see if we can potentially even reduce their need for medication, which is exciting. And then we have one other study that we're still working on where we're taking cancer patients and seeing if intermittent fasting can help shrink their tumors and also reduce the sort of nasty side effects of chemotherapy and radiation. Because there's a bunch of studies in animals showing that if you combine intermittent fasting with chemotherapy and radiation, those animals survive so much better. And what's interesting is there's a sweet spot. If you start the intermittent fasting prior to chemotherapy and radiation, you get these huge improvements in shrinking their tumors. But if you do the intermittent fasting after they do the chemotherapy and radiation, you don't get the same huge benefit. And it seems that the intermittent fasting kind of helps chemotherapy and radiation better kill the tumors while protecting healthy cells. So we're kind of testing that now in people to see if it can help.

Barry Conrad
that's absolutely amazing and to wrap things up corny if you had to choose a final meal what would it be.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Oh, a final meal on Earth?

Barry Conrad
Yeah.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Oh, gosh. Okay. So I would probably do a combination of healthy and unhealthy foods. Something with chocolate and then something with fruits. Like I love watermelon in berries, raspberries and strawberries.

Oh, and I love stone fruit. So probably cherries and white nectarines are amazing. And then I would probably do something like some dark chocolate or like dark chocolate covered like mint ice cream or something like that. It would be both those things.

Barry Conrad
Sounds tasty. Well, Courtney, where can people find you before we go? Find you online.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Yeah, so I currently do not have a big social media presence, but I have a web page at the University of Alabama at Birmingham. So if they just search my name, Courtney Peterson, and UAB, then they can find me there.

Barry Conrad
Amazing. Courtney Peterson, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. Thank you so much for making the time.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Barry Conrad
And thank you all for tuning in, we'll catch you next week. Bye.

Dr. Courtney Peterson
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed.

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Jul 14

Episode 430 – Find Your IF Type, Red Meat Causing Cancer, Headlines Problems, Fasting For Insulin Resistance And HGH, Absolute Vs. Relative Risk, Stevia, Monk Fruit, Allulose, And Erythritol, Is OMAD Too Stressful, And More!