Episode 196: Christmas Episode, Low Energy, Brain Fog, HCLF, Fruit, Complex Carbs, And More!

Intermittent Fasting


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Jan 17

Welcome to Episode 196 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To ButcherBox.Com/IFPODCAST And Get The Ultimate Keto Bundle! That’s 10 lbs of meat: one pork butt, 2 lbs of ground beef and 3 lbs of bone-in chicken thighs for free in your first box!

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At Melanieavalon.Com/Insidetracker! Go To MelanieAvalon.Com/GetInsideTracker And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 


BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To ButcherBox.com/IFPODCAST And Get The Ultimate Keto Bundle!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

Lifespan: Why We Age - and Why We Don't Have To (David A. Sinclair PhD)

BLUBLOX: Go To BLUblox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

Chilipad: Go To melanieavalon.com/getchilipad and use coupon code MA25 for 25% off the original chilipad or mA15 15% off the ooler

APOLLO NEURO: Get 15% Off Apollo Neuro At Apolloneuro.Com/Melanieavalon

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To DryFarmWines.com/IFPodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

INSIDETRACKER: Go To MelanieAvalon.Com/GetInsideTracker And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

Listener Feedback: Bronwyn - Becky episode 192

Listener Q&A: Rachanna - Energy during Fasting window

Listener Q&A: Robin - Lack of energy while fasting

The Wahls Protocol: A Radical New Way to Treat All Chronic Autoimmune Conditions Using Paleo Principles (Terry Wahls M.D.)

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #70 - Kara Collier (Nutrisense)

NUTRISENSE: Go To Melanieavalon.com/nutrisenseCGM And Use Coupon Code MelanieAvalon For 15% Off Select Packages

BLUBLOX: Go To BLUblox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

Listener Q&A: Grace - Fruit and Hunger, High Carb Definition

IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + LifeJoin Melanie's Facebook Group For A Weekly Episode GIVEAWAY, And To Discuss And Learn About All Things Biohacking! All Conversations Welcome!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #44- Cyrus Khambatta, PHD and Robby Barbaro, MPH

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #71 - Dr. Douglas Graham


The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #74 - Benjamin Bikman, Ph.D.


Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 196 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get 10 pounds of free sustainable meat. That's right, 10 pounds. We are huge fans of a company called ButcherBox. They make it easy to get high-quality, humanely raised meat that you can trust. What they do is they deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage breed pork, and wild-caught seafood, shipped directly to your door. By cutting out the middleman, which is the grocery store, and working directly with farmers. They are supporting huge changes in the future and sustainability of our health and the environment. The value is incredible.

The average cost is less than $6 per meal, and that is delicious. 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, where the cattle are free to roam on pasture, their hogs are also raised on pasture or in hoop barns. Their bacon, by the way, is sugar and nitrate free. How hard is that to find? Their chickens are humanely raised without door access, with no cages, crates, overcrowding. They uphold the strictest of standards, when it comes to fishing practices. They have an array of options for curated box options as well as their popular custom box, so you can get exactly what you and your family love. If you want to learn all of the details, check out the very extensive blog post I did when researching, that's at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox, and here is that amazing offer we have for you guys.

You can start off the year right with up to 10 pounds of free meat for a limited time, ButcherBox is offering new members their ultimate keto bundle. When you sign up today at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, you'll get one pork, but two pounds of grass-fed, grass-finished beef, and three pounds of bone and chicken thighs all for free in your first box. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. I'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before you jump in. Are you concerned about aging? Well thankfully, fasting is super incredible for its anti-aging benefits. It activates genes in your body called sirtuins, which repair your body and help extend lifespan. Also during the fast, your body can clean up a lot of harmful chemicals which may be taxing your detoxification systems. In fact the reason people go gray is because their detox systems start producing a lot of hydrogen peroxide when dealing with toxins. Do you know where a lot of those chemicals come from? Your skincare and makeup.

As it turns out, there are thousands of compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup that Europe has banned due to their toxic nature and the US has banned less than 10. When you put these on your skin every single day through your skincare makeup, you're adding to your body's burden and likely aging your skin faster. Thankfully, you can easily clean up your skincare with a company called Beautycounter. They make incredible products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about every single ingredient that you put on. They also have an amazing antiaging line called Countertime. Friends, this is a game-changer.

It's full of active ingredients, which nourish and support your skin, reduce fine lines and wrinkles and support a beautiful glow. It also has a safe alternative to retinol. So you can get all of the anti-aging benefits of retinol without any of the toxic effects of retinol because, yes, that stuff is toxic. Guys, put it away now. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. Also, definitely get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I giveaway so many free things on that list. So definitely check it out.

Lastly, if you anticipate making safe skincare a part of your future, just like Gin and I do, definitely become a band of beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for safe skincare. You get 10% back on all of your purchases, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that costs way more than the price of the membership. It's completely worth it. Friends, are you fasting clean inside and out? You can with Beautycounter. Again, that link is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. We'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 196 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, I just forgot the intro for the first time in 196 episodes. It's like when you have a habit of something that is so habitual but then if you actually try to think about it, it's like you overanalyze.

Gin Stephens: Oh, 100%. Somebody in my family got a new iPhone for Christmas. They were upgrading from the kind that had the finger that you had to click on, and so now you don't do that anymore. You just slide up instead of clicking on the little home button. I was trying to show them how to do it, and I'm like, “I can't remember how to do it. I don't know.” They're like, “How do you do this?” I'm like, “I have no idea. I just do it.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, when you actually think about it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Like, “Can you tell me?” I'm like, “No, I can't tell you. I just have to do it.”

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if it's because it's not in your conscious working memory?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, it's like driving a car. You don't even think about all the things you're doing. You just do it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Like, I wonder if literally, if you consciously try to think about it, like, if you're looking for the information in the wrong part of your brain. It might be in a different part of your brain where it's subconscious. So, trying to actually think about it, maybe the knowledge is literally not there.

Gin Stephens: Everything is hard, that's automatic when you try to think about it. If you had to stand up out of your chair, you're like, “Alright, how do I stand up out of my chair?” But you don't think about it, you just do it. Like walking, you don't know how to walk, you just walk. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny, our podcast episode-- [crosstalk]

Gin Stephens: There you go. We're recording this on the day after Christmas. How was your Christmas?

Melanie Avalon: It was wonderful. We opened all of our presents. We did the immediate family gathering on Christmas Eve. Then on Christmas Day, we did a responsible socially distance gathering with extended family.

Gin Stephens: Very nice.

Melanie Avalon: How about you?

Gin Stephens: Well, I got to see Cal and Kate for the first time in over a year, which is crazy to say. I hadn't seen them since they got married.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. That's exciting.

Gin Stephens: It was so exciting. They didn't think they were going to be able to come home for a brief minute. And then they were like, “We're doing it. We're coming home.” They safely flew Delta with the seat in the middle and they wore their masks. While they were here, they didn't see people. Cal hadn't seen his friends. He's like, “Nope, can't see them.” We didn't go see the whole family, but they just stayed here with us. So, it was just the people I gave birth to and my spouse, and my daughter in law. So that was it.

Melanie Avalon: That’s so exciting.

Gin Stephens: It was exciting. It was very nice to see them. They were here for four nights, it flew by.

Melanie Avalon: Oh yeah, I bet.

Gin Stephens: It really did. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Can I tell you the gifts that I gave to family members?

Gin Stephens: Real quick, I have to tell you something funny. I can no longer say that both of my sons do intermittent fasting because Cal has stopped doing intermittent fasting. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?

Gin Stephens: Yes. He eats all the time, and it was hilarious. They get up in the morning, they're eating, I'm like, “What?”

Melanie Avalon: “What are you doing?” [laughs]

Gin Stephens: He's making egg and she's a vegetarian. He's probably 90 something percent vegetarian now because that's just how they eat around their apartment. We had to go to the store and get all these vegetarian things. And they just ate all the time, all those small meals. We went to a national park that's in South Carolina that I'd never even heard of or been to. It only became a national park in 2005, which explains a lot, but it's Congaree National Park. It's like a swamp, has a boardwalk. We walked all through the swamp. It was beautiful. They're like, “We have to think about what we're going to eat.” I'm like, “Oh my Lord.” We had to pack food and take food and eat the food as soon as we got there. I mean, I didn't. I was in the fasted state. I hiked four miles in the fasted state. They ate before we left, they ate in the middle of a hike, it was really funny. I didn't eat till we got home. That was like 5 PM. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Did it come out of a need for him, because he was doing more vegetarian, like not getting enough food?

Gin Stephens: I don't think so. I don't really know. He was just doing the intermittent fasting loosely and not eating till lunchtime when he was in college. Even I think when he first started working for Airbnb, he would go into the office, but now he's working from home. I think he just got into the habit of starting to have breakfast again, and anyway. They're both really lean and healthy and they get a lot of exercise. Intermittent fasting is a tool that they have if they ever need it, but it was just so funny how frequently they ate.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really happy, I realized now my family finally is just-- they completely accepted all of my strange habits because I didn't really eat at the times that they were eating for different festivity gatherings.

Gin Stephens: While on Christmas Day, we went safely over to my dad and stepmothers, and I ate brunch, I ate all day long. But today, the day after, I'm so happy to not be eating. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's the thing about it. I feel it's the one dietary protocol, or I don’t want to make an exclusive statement like that. One of the benefits about intermittent fasting is, if you do stop it for the holidays, I feel so many people are so excited to go back to it, compared to dreading it.

Gin Stephens: Even technically, I say that I didn't. I did fast. I fasted overnight, so I probably on Christmas Day had a-- Well, let me think, let me do some math. I had probably a 13-hour fast, 14-hour fast before I open my window on Christmas. I mean, it wasn't really a window. I guess it technically is always a window, but I still had a 13 or 14 hour fast then I ate. I ate more than I needed to, foods I don't normally eat. Today, though, it feels great to fast longer. Feels great too fast longer, let me clarify. What were you going to say and then I interrupted you with my story?

Melanie Avalon: The gifts related to things we've talked about on the show that I gave to people. I gave Beautycounter to everybody. My sister, my brother, he was so excited, which made me really excited. My mom, my brother's girlfriend, and my uncle, who also was really excited. They have a men's line. That was fun. I'll give links for all these different things I talk about. For that, melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. Then I got, okay, the thing I was most excited about which I think I might have sent you a picture of this when I got it because I got it months ago, but I got my dad, it was my favorite book out of all the health biohacking books is David Sinclair's Lifespan and I got him to sign it to my dad. Did I show you a picture of that when he did that?

Gin Stephens: I don't think so. No, but that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon: I got it way back in the spring. So that made me really happy. I asked him just to sign it to Steve, my dad, but he wrote a whole message and wrote like, “Your daughter is awesome.” I was like, “Oh my goodness.”

Gin Stephens: That's fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: I got that from my dad, and then I also got my dad a pair of BLUblox, blue light blocking glasses.

Gin Stephens: It was a biohacking Christmas.

Melanie Avalon: It really was. Then I got my mom, a chiliPAD OOLER, the mattress that cools down while you sleep. I'm so excited for her to try it because she's been complaining about sleeping really hot at night and not being able to sleep. She said she was going to add it into her budget and buy it later, so I was like, “I'll just get it for her”. I got her an Apollo Neuro, the stress-relieving device, which was really funny because a few days before Christmas, she texted me because she had seen one of my Instagram stories or Facebook or something about Apollo Neuro. She was like, “Does this really work?” I was like, “Yes.” She was like, “I think I want to get one.” I was like, “Oh, wait.” I'd already got it for her.

Gin Stephens: “Do not get one, mom.”

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “I think they're coming out with an update, so you might want to wait.” She was really excited about that. That might have been all of the “biohacking” related gifts. If listeners are curious, it’s not like I got any of this for free, I bought all of this just to show how obsessed I am with all these products.

Gin Stephens: True. I bought Chad Dry Farm Wines, a box of the reds, and I paid for it. I bought it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh yeah, I got my dad that, too. I got my dad and mom that.

Gin Stephens: Oh, and I had some wine last night, but it was like the tiny-- I felt like Melanie Avalon. You know how you had teaspoon or something? Chad opened his one of his bottles of the red. It was a French red. And I'm like, “Pour me.” I mean, it was like half a centimeter of wine of the glass that I just slipped. It was tiny. But it wasn't enough to even have any buzz or impact. It was just a tiny little taste. So, I tasted it.

Melanie Avalon: That's technically probably micro-dosing alcohol. I think that has a really beneficial hormetic effect.

Gin Stephens: Maybe. Well, I micro-dosed it and it was delicious.

Melanie Avalon: I didn't stop my intermittent fasting window or anything. I didn't change my food choices, but what I did go off plan was they were all organic wines. I have all of these really nice expensive organic bottles of wine that I've had for a while but they're not Dry Farm Wines. A lot of them are California and they're a lot higher alcohol and they're not-- I just like to drink Dry Farm Wines. For the holidays though, I brought those bottles over any opportunity I had. So, I'm excited to go back to Dry Farm Wines now.

Gin Stephens: Oh yeah. I can never do anything else. I mean, I'm not ever going to drink like huge amounts of anything ever again, I'm pretty sure, but the Dry Farm Wines is really just so different.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really proud of myself, like at all the gatherings I really stuck to. I brought the really nice bottles, like I said, that are organic, but there's just something different about Dry Farm Wines, but I stuck to them and then I didn't try any of the other wines even though I really wanted to. But, yeah, so for listeners, I'll put links in the show notes. You can get a bottle for a penny, Dry Farm Wines. So, that's dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast. You can get 15% off of BLUblox, the blue light blocking glasses at blublox.com with the coupon code IFPODCAST. You can get 15% off Apollo Neuro, that's the soundwave therapy device, at melanieavalon.com/apolloneuro with the coupon code MELANIEAVALON. For chiliPAD, it's melanieavalon.com/getchilipad, that's C-H-I-L-I-P-A-D. The code MA25, gets you 25% off the chiliPAD, that's the original one. And then, the code MA15 gives you 15% off the OOLER. I actually just got the OOLER for myself as well. I think I talked about that because I bought them on Black Friday when they were having a pretty good sale. And, oh my goodness, I love it. I definitely recommend it over the chiliPAD because the updates that it has, is it has like a UV light to sanitize the water because there is the concern about mold growing. Then, it syncs to your phone, so you can time it. Mine automatically turns on at a certain time every night and then turns off in the morning and it's just a game-changer for my sleep. It was a biohacking Christmas.

Gin Stephens: That's fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, very last thing. So sorry. The present that I received that I got most excited about. My mom got me the Rolling Stones December 2020 edition was Taylor Swift on the cover with, I think, Paul McCartney. Apparently, it's sold out. Is Rolling Stone subscription only? My mom and I were debating about that. Do you know?

Gin Stephens: The magazine?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Can you buy it on the newsstands?

Gin Stephens: I mean, [unintelligible [00:17:09]. Can you now? I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I'm not sure. Well, she swears.

Gin Stephens: I don’t buy anything on the newsstand now. I can't think of the last time I've gone and bought a magazine.

Melanie Avalon: Probably years when you were on the cover. Did you buy that one?

Gin Stephens: Oh, well. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that. [laughs] Okay, yeah. I bought that at the grocery store though.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, like newsstands?

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean, when I'm thinking about-- I was picturing when you go to the whole display of all the magazines and it's just the one that Fast. Feast. Repeat. was featured in was at the checkout stand.

Melanie Avalon: Then the one that we were in-- or you were in. It was a profile on you, but then it mentioned this show, remember?

Gin Stephens: Was it the intermittent fasting special? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Good times. My mom, she got me-- Apparently, it's sold out the first edition. So, it's still in the packaging of the Rolling Stones 2020 December, Taylor Swift cover. It made me so happy. And then she got me organic, gluten-free vodka from Hawaii made from sugarcane. The water is Hawaii mineral water. I was like, “Thank you, mom. Vodka and Taylor Swift. You know me.” [laughs] I actually haven't had vodka in, I don’t know, a decade.

Gin Stephens: My very favorite gift was, my son, Will, painted pictures for Chad and for me.

Melanie Avalon: Aww.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. He is my artsy boy, the one that is in a band. His band is called Wing It. If you go to Apple Music, you can listen to their song wishing by Wing It on Apple Music. I think it's everywhere that you can do all that.

Melanie Avalon: Is it on Spotify now?

Gin Stephens: I think it might be. I don't know if it's . It's just like with self-publishing books. Once you upload it to one place, and it goes to all the places or podcasts. Once you upload a podcast, it goes to all the podcast apps, same thing with the music scene. It should be really everywhere that you stream music. Wishing by Wing it. Anyway, I'm just so proud of him. He's doing artsy things. And now he's like, “I'm going to paint.” He's painting and it's fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? What did he paint?

Gin Stephens: It's an impressionistic looking thing. He painted the scene of his where he lives right now. He painted a daytime version and then a nighttime version, and they're just beautiful. All of his Christmas money, he's like, “I'm going to go buy canvases.” I'm not even kidding, that's what he's-- he's going to go buy canvases and he's such a creative boy.

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that was my very favorite present.

Melanie Avalon: Aww, I love it. Yep. Listeners, Gin sent me a miniature Christmas tree, and it made me so happy.

Gin Stephens: I'm so glad.

Melanie Avalon: I decorated it.

Gin Stephens: Yay.

Melanie Avalon: Staring at me.

Gin Stephens: And that was your only Christmas tree, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because I posted a picture on Instagram. I received a lot of plants this year.

Gin Stephens: But I mean, you didn't put up a Christmas tree?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. It was my only Christmas tree, that made me really happy because I was debating about getting a Christmas tree in my apartment. But I was like, “I don't want to deal--" Mostly I don't want to deal with storing it. If it was artificial, storing it somewhere or--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that is not easy.

Melanie Avalon: And if it's real, getting rid of it.

Gin Stephens: I am so happy in my house because we have five attics. It's a crazy house. It's got a lot of weird eaves, and in all the little weird eaves area upstairs, there's a little attic crammed in there.

Melanie Avalon: There's always these words that you teach me about houses that I have never heard of in my life. Okay, an eave?

Gin Stephens: Well, think about a roof that's the triangle of the roof. Now imagine a room that's next to where a slanted ceiling comes down. A lot of the rooms in my house have slanted ceilings. Okay, so imagine as the slant comes down, there's all that space that you can't have really in the room. There's doorways that go under the eaves, and that's like storage.

Melanie Avalon: So, it's like a triangle room?

Gin Stephens: It's just that little space. I don’t know, it's hard to explain, but I have an entire Christmas attic.

Melanie Avalon: Nice.

Gin Stephens: I mean, it's fantastic. That's why I have two full-sized Christmas trees that I keep in there. I mean, I have to take them down, but all my Christmas stuffs in that one attic, and it's phenomenal because we didn't have that kind of storage in my other house.

Melanie Avalon: Storage is everything.

Gin Stephens: In fact, when we bought this house, the old owner said beware of the attics.

Melanie Avalon: What do you mean?

Gin Stephens: Because you can put so much stuff in there. They had been in this house since ‘84, and so apparently their attics were packed.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: That's crazy.

Gin Stephens: We're going to try not to fall in the trap. Anyway, you're right, storing your Christmas tree is hard.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Shall we get started?

Melanie Avalon: I think so. I knew we were going to have a lot to catch up on.

Gin Stephens: We did, well, because Christmas.

Melanie Avalon: This will come out into January, but happy late Christmas to everybody. Hopefully 2021 is looking bright.

Gin Stephens: I think it's going to be a great year.

Melanie Avalon: I think so, too.

Gin Stephens: Some great things happened in 2020 though. I know friends who had babies or their first grandchildren or their New York Times bestselling book or other things. We had some good things in 2020. It also taught us a lot about what to value and what's important.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's what I keep thinking. I think it's been like--

Gin Stephens: We [unintelligible [00:22:32] down.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and amazing, like, a forced mindfulness in a way to reevaluate what's important.

Gin Stephens: Bad things happen in every single year. But I don't think we should think of 2020 is only bad, because it also had some amazing things in it.

Melanie Avalon: I agree.

Gin Stephens: And then you feel guilty. You're like, “Well, I had some good things in 2020.” I'm sorry, I had a good thing.

Melanie Avalon: That is a response that I even have that I shouldn't feel good about things that happened. So, I think a reframe.

Gin Stephens: It's like I'm sorry, you only complain. No, we need to celebrate the good things, too.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it doesn't diminish the other things.

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. I wanted to tell you about one of the most incredible resources for taking charge of your blood tests and lab work, ever. I am a huge fan of a company called InsideTracker. They are actually a David Sinclair partnered company. What they do is they provide access to the blood tests that you need to be testing, as well as interpretations, so that you can figure out what that all means.

Basically, we often go to our doctor, we get blood tests, we test things, but is it what we need to be testing? What does it even mean? That's what InsideTracker is here for. They've done extensive testing to figure out which blood markers can tell you the most about your actual health. These aren't necessarily all the tests that you might expect. They provide personalized interpretations of those results along with dietary and lifestyle recommendations, so that you can truly take charge of your health. Their inner age, for example, analyzes your blood work to determine your true “inner age” and how to lower it. I did it recently. Thankfully, my inner age was lower than my actual chronological age, but there were still some things that I could work on. InsideTracker has really helped me meet my goals in that way.

They've also got DNA testing, as well as one of my favorite things, which is their online portal. Guys, this online portal is a game-changer that includes your results from InsideTracker, but then you can upload all of your own data from any other blood results that you've had through your doctor, so helpful. You just go into the portal, you drop in your lab results, and then you have all their lab results all in one place. It's so easy to see how things have changed over time, and they interpret these lab results from other companies by their standards. It is so helpful. I cannot even describe how much I use this platform.

If you'd like to learn more about them, as well as all about bloodwork testing, definitely check out my interview I did with the founder Gil Blander. That's at melanieavalon.com/iInsidetracker. And InsideTracker also has an amazing offer just for my audience. It was 20%, I asked if it could be 30, and they said yes. They are so amazing. So, if you go to melanieavalon.com/getinsidetracker, you can use the coupon code Melanie30, to get 30% off sitewide. Yes, 30% off sitewide, melanieavalon.com/getinsidetracker, you can use the coupon code Melanie30. That’s M-E-L-A-N-I-E 30, I'll put all of this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

All right, so we have some feedback from Bronwyn. It is about Becky from Episode 192. She said, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, I'm listening to Episode 192, and wondered if you could tell Becky my experience. I, like her, can't get past about 1:00 PM without needing to eat, but I can easily drop dinner. When I finally decided that I didn't “have to” eat dinner with my family and just sat with them and drank water. Not one of them noticed that I wasn't eating until the fourth night. They are not upset about it. They don't mind at all. Bronwyn.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so that was some good feedback. I'm pretty sure the initial question from Becky, which was a question that we get from a lot of people is, families, is often usually moms who have kids and families and they do better with an earlier eating window. So, they don't want to eat dinner with a family, and there's this whole puzzle to figure out about what is best. I'm trying to remember what we recommended. I think we recommended a lot of different potential options, but it's nice to hear that for some people, like Bronwyn, that just taking the approach that she took can work for some people.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's true. Yep. I think you nailed it.

Melanie Avalon: Now, we have two questions, and they are talking about a similar topic, so we thought we would include both. The first one is from Roshanna, and the subject is “Energy During Fasting Window.” Roshanna says, “So, I hear about this increased mental energy with IF. I had been doing IF now for a few months and have reached my target weight. However, I have a fogged brain through the fasting period. After my eating window opens, and I eat lunch around 12 to 1. I experienced a sudden and sharp dip of energy, which stays through till my dinner time, which is at 7:00, no amount of tea or coffee helps.” Then, we have a question from Robin, the subject is “Lack of Energy While Fasting.” She says, “Hi, I've been fasting now for about three years, started 12:12 and worked up to 24. I do 24 to keep my weight down, especially now since COVID, and not working out at the level I was before COVID. I'm currently working at home and I'm not going to gym for spin class to get my cardio in, to keep my A1C in check. My issue is I never feel energized and focused. It's just the opposite, tired and brain fog. Any suggestions?” All right. Two great question. Great questions from two Rs, Roshanna and Robin. Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm going to be really brief. Most of us have increased mental clarity and energy while fasting clean during the fast. For example, today, it's the day after Christmas, I actually was a little draggy this morning, because I had a long window yesterday. I ate more sweets and things I don't normally eat and so I was feeling a little draggy. But then I just pushed through that and then, boom, on the other side, mental clarity, increased energy, no more brain fog. That is what you want to ideally feel. If you're not feeling that ever, and you know you're fasting clean, and you know you're fasting long enough that you should be getting into ketosis like 16, 18, 20 hours, you never feel it. If you're only fasting 16 hours and you never feel it, you might not be fasting long enough. If you're fasting 20 hours or beyond and you never get out of the brain fog, either you're not getting into ketosis, which is possible or there's something else causing the brain fog. People have brain fog, for all sorts of reasons.

It could be related to something going on in your gut, it could be an allergy. I mean, it could be all sorts of reasons that you have brain fog. If you know you're fasting long enough, you know that you “should be” getting into ketosis and having that increased mental clarity that would come with that and you never, never, never are, then it's time to look beyond what else is going on. Back to what Roshanna said about after she eats, she has a dip of energy. Well, that's normal, because digestion takes a lot of energy. And we tend to have our blood glucose might drop after we eat, depending on what you eat, you feel tired, your body's digesting all that. So, that's normal. In the fast, if you continue to feel lethargic and have brain fog, and you're fasting for years and years, you know that you're having a long enough fast, I would dig deeper. So I know, Melanie, you have a ton to say about that.

Melanie Avalon: What I noticed for both of them, and Gin can probably predict that I would say this, but neither of them said what they are eating. Gin really nailed it in the fact that there are so many potential things that can be going on that, so many things. Even fasting itself, for some people can have a really intense detox effect, and can create fatigue, just from the fasting, for example. This isn't speaking to energy specifically, but right now I am reading The Wahls Protocol by Terry Wahls. I'm so excited because I'm going to be interviewing her and she's really a huge figure in the holistic health world. She's the one that had multiple sclerosis. She was wheelchair bound, like couldn't even walk, and she completely reversed all of it through diet and lifestyle. Originally, she's a doctor, so she has a really nuanced and informed perspective from both conventional and holistic medicine. In any case, something that really stuck out with me was, I was reading her book and is not speaking to energy specifically, but she said that there are basically four things related to chronic disease. Four factors in your body.

Energy issues often overlap with factors in our body that can be trending towards disease. She says that those are one mitochondrial dysfunction. Basically, how your cells are generating energy. Gin spoke to that with the fasting. For a lot of people, if you are fasting, and you are fat-adapted, and you're in the ketogenic state, then your mitochondria are most likely generating ketones adequately, so that may or may not be the problem. If you're not getting the energy from the fast, Gin, just talks about this, it might be that you're never quite getting into that, that ketogenic state that you need to be in, to experience the benefits.

The other thing she says number two is excessive and inappropriate inflammation. I think that's a lot where the food choices come in. You might be fasting and doing all the fasting. Even though you can get the benefits of fasting coupled with a diet that is not health-promoting or not working for you, it's still quite possible to be putting in foods in your body in the eating window that are short-circuiting everything. And so, then when you're actually fasting, it’s mitigating the damage, but you're never able to really reach that state of vitality or energy because you're always doing cleanup every day. It would be like, if you had a house party every night, like a college party in your apartment, and then you came and did a deep clean every day, like a fasting period. If you're always recovering from what you're eating, that can be an issue. Sometimes you might not even realize that it's causing a problem. It can be hard to know, sometimes unless you actually take out the foods that are bothering you. And I'm not trying to moralize food or say that anybody is doing a “bad diet,” but it is possible that the foods are not suiting your body. So, I always recommend if you haven't tried like a Whole Foods type approach diet, where you're eliminating potentially inflammatory foods. I obviously really love the “paleo approach,” which is in my book, What When Wine, but just looking at your dietary choices can be really important.

Then the other two things she says, number three is high cortisol levels. I think that speaks to so hormones. Hormones can be huge. So, you can be doing the fasting and eating the right food. But if your hormones are off for whatever reason, there can still be problems with energy, because hormones are huge. And then the fourth thing she says is absence of or insufficient health-promoting microbes living in and on us, so our microbiomes. I do think our gut health and our microbiome health is, like, huge. If your gut is full of microbes that are not symbiotically supporting you, it can definitely, definitely lead to energy issues, weight gain, things just not quite working. Again, that is something where I think addressing foods can be a huge factor in that, but that was a long answer, just like Gin predicted.

Gin Stephens: I knew you have a lot to say.

Melanie Avalon: I just thought was perfect, because I read that last night, and I was like, that's really four really great things to focus on. Basically, long story short, it might not be the fasting. It could be a lot of things.

Gin Stephens: Just to piggyback when you were talking about things that were inflammatory for your body, it's not the same for everybody. Something that works really well for me, might be inflammatory for somebody else, and vice versa. I'm getting ready to eat according to the recommendations of the PREDICT 3 study just to see how I feel. After doing that study, I found that, to no surprise, to me, a lot of fat is inflammatory to me, because my body doesn't clear fat. If I were just following someone else's protocol of eating a high fat, keto diet, for example, that worked great and lowered inflammation for somebody else, that's inflammatory for me, because of the way my body clears fat based on the results of my blood test. You just really have to figure out what works for your body. The good news is, we're getting more and more tools to do that. Companies that can analyze things for you and say, “Guess what? That's not good for your body.”

Melanie Avalon: The two things now that I always have on, I'm learning so much from my continuous glucose monitor, which I have one on still right now. Gin, are you going to wear another one at all, do you think?

Gin Stephens: Maybe, which one are you using?

Melanie Avalon: It's Nutrisense.

Gin Stephens: Is that the one you like most?

Melanie Avalon: I did interviews with Nutrisense and Levels, I like both. They both use the FreeStyle Libre. Oh, and for listeners who are not familiar, I know Gin and I've been talking about this a lot. But the continuous glucose monitor is a sensor that you put onto your arm, and it measures your glucose, your blood glucose constantly 24/7, so you can see how you react to foods and you can see what's happening when you're fasting, when you eat, when you exercise, like how is that changing your blood sugar, and it's revolutionary.

Gin Stephens: Just to clarify, that's not what told me that fats are inflammatory for me, that was the different part of the PREDICT 3 study. The CGM was part of it, but they also fed me challenge meals and then tested my blood at periods throughout after the challenge meal to see how my body cleared the fat. Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that.

Melanie Avalon: So, they were testing the fatty acids in your blood?

Gin Stephens: Yes, how my body cleared the fat after the challenge meal, that they have the data on how you should clear the fat versus how I did clear the fat. Anyway, the reason I asked about Nutrisense being the one you prefer is because they reached out to the company that does my podcast ads. They're interested in sponsoring Intermittent Fasting Stories.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, doing sponsorships.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Anyway, I wanted to check and see if that's the one because I was like, “I think so, but I'd like to try it.” I'm going to get to try it.

Melanie Avalon: Are they sending you one?

Gin Stephens: Well, I think so.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they're great. For listeners, I'll put a link in the show notes-- Oh, the show notes, by the way, will be at ifpodcast.com/episode196.

Gin Stephens: But just to say, we don't promote things until we try them. So that's why I asked, because I was like, I'm not going to say yes to any company until I can try it for myself. I say no to all sorts of companies, as does Melanie, as do we.

Melanie Avalon: All the time.

Gin Stephens: All the time.

Melanie Avalon: Definitely every week, and sometimes multiple times a week.

Gin Stephens: I also say no to people who want to come on Intermittent Fasting Stories, and I have turned down to three New York Times bestselling writers who wanted to be on Intermittent Fasting Stories, because-- anyway, I don't get into all the reasons, but if their protocol is not in line with the clean fast, or if they're just trying to promote a book that's really the opposite of what I think is fasting. Anyway, I'm a little wacky with that.

Melanie Avalon: Then they can come over to my show. [laughs] Everybody welcome.

Gin Stephens: I'm here to talk about intermittent fasting stories.

Melanie Avalon: No, it makes sense because you want everything to be in line with what you're doing. So, my show is the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, the point of it is to bring on people of all different--

Gin Stephens: Diverse points of view.

Melanie Avalon: I think the only people I don't want to bring on are people who I feel-- well, it's hard for me to say that because so many people come on are very-- I don't use the word dogmatic, but they definitely think what they're doing is the “one right answer.” I prefer people who feel that there might be different approaches that work for different people. At the same time, in order for me to personally explore all the different options, I feel I have to bring on the people who believe in all the different options. Even if they believe that's the only option. Oh, Nutrisense. Yeah, so I'll put a link in the show notes. I interviewed the founder, Kara Collier. She's fantastic. That was at melanieavalon.com/nutrisense. I'm also going to release the episode with Levels. Right now, they both use FreeStyle Libre. They're different apps. They're both really valuable. They both work. I'm a fan. Levels is still in the beta testing phase right now, that was my reasoning for releasing the Nutrisense episode first because I want people to get it now. Once I release Levels, it's not even out yet, it's a waitlist. So that's why I've been in really hardcore promoting Nutrisense. Right now, the price point is better for Nutrisense and I want it to be most accessible to everybody.

I'm really hoping Levels brings down their price point. We'll see how that goes. I'm sitting on the episode and I might just release it once it's already out. So then that it's not a waitlist situation, but listeners, you can get 15% off on Nutrisense at melanieavalon.com/nutrisenseCGM with the coupon MELANIEAVALON, and yes, I have mine on right now.

Gin Stephens: Good stuff.

Melanie Avalon: That's why that came up. I would say we're talking about like things that monitor and tell us about our health. I wear the Oura ring now. I actually do think you would like the Oura ring.

Gin Stephens: I might. I'm weird about rings. I feel it's a little wide.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. It is big.

Gin Stephens: I don't like wide things on my fingers. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: You can put it on any finger. Does that matter?

Gin Stephens: I really don't like things on weird fingers.

Melanie Avalon: Okay.


Gin Stephens: Like your pointer finger? No, I would go crazy. My friend, Sheri, has one. I'll try hers on and see. I'll see if I can handle it.

Melanie Avalon: I love it.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to see her next week.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just finding it so motivating. I'm actually bringing back the founder for a listener Q&A. I'm really excited.

Gin Stephens: Or, if they wanted to send me one, I would wear one. I would try it, but anyway.

Melanie Avalon: They actually only send tests. They don't let you keep it.

Gin Stephens: They don’t let you keep it. Yeah, that's funny.

Melanie Avalon: Friends, I have a story for you. I recently got septoplasty to fix my deviated septum so that I could breathe better. And in the recovery period, you're not supposed to wear glasses. Oh, my goodness. I cannot tell you how much I realized how much I adore and need and love BLUblox blue light blocking glasses. I've been wearing them every single night of my life until I got that surgery. Guys, you need this in your life.

In today's world, we're way overexposed to blue light. While blue light is energizing, we're not supposed to be seeing it 24/7, it can raise cortisol, stress levels, create tension and headaches disrupt your sleep and so much more. Of course, there are a lot of “blue light blocking glasses” on the market these days, Andy Mant, the founder of BLUblox, he personally realized how incredible blue light blocking glasses were for him personally. So, then he did something crazy and actually tested all the brands on the market to see if they actually were blocking blue light like they said they were. They weren't really. That's why he took things into his own hands to create glasses that would block the blue light, you need to be blocking to truly have the healthiest relationship possible with light. That's also why he made BLUblox light blocking glasses in a lot of different versions.

They have clear computer glasses you can wear all day while looking at the computer. They have their SummerGlo lens that blocked the draining form of blue light while still allowing in some of the energizing wavelengths. They're also tinted with a special yellow color, scientifically shown to boost mood. And, of course, they have their Sleep+ lens, you can put those on a bed and it's just like, bam, tired. At least that's the way it works for me because actually blue light can block melatonin production, which helps us naturally fall asleep.

Also, get their Sleep REMedy Mask. Oh, my goodness, I use it every single night. It gives you complete blackout while still putting no pressure on your eyes, like you wear it, and you can open your eyes completely, and it's completely black. It's mind-blowing. In case you're wondering, I'm still not supposed to be wearing glasses, but I ordered this weird contraption head thing to hold the glasses over my eyes because I just really need the blue light blocking glasses in my life. These glasses also come in a huge array of styles, so you don't have to feel like a weirdo biohacker like me. You can really get any style or frame to fit your personal style. You can shop with us at blublox.com, that's B-L-U-B-L-O-X dotcom and use the code IFPODCAST to get 15% off. Something else amazing, for every pair of glasses you buy, BLUblox donates a pair of glasses to someone in need. The glasses can also come in prescription made to order. Again, that's blublox.com with the coupon code IFPODCAST for 15% off. All right, now back to the show.

Gin Stephens: We're ready for our next question and this is from Grace. The subject is “Fruit and Hunger, High-Carb Definition.” “Hi, Melanie and Gin, I've been a fan of your podcasts, Facebook groups and apps for years. You both are the reason I've been able to maintain my weight and sanity. I greatly appreciate all the invaluable knowledge you provide. My question is about fruit. I have always eaten a significant amount of fruit between 50 to 70 grams of sugar daily from fruit. Since the quarantine, I had cut fruit completely out of my diet to lessen grocery shopping frequency. This decreased my sugar intake to five grams a day. I noticed my appetite decreased once I removed fruit. I've always had issues feeling satiated. I have never been able to portion control fruit because once I have a single serving, I always want more. I have been fasting for years now usually 18 to 20 hours daily. My hunger levels aren't from the adaptation period.

Melanie, you had said that you feel ravenous when fruit is in your diet. And I wanted to know if you had any scientific findings on why this is happening? Could it mean our bodies aren't processing it well? I also feel significantly bloated after consuming fruit. I just love it so much. I often look past the side effects.

Second question. You've mentioned, choosing between low carb or low fat. I started to follow a moderate protein, high carb, low-fat diet and am loving it. My question involves the definition of carbs. If someone is eating a low fat, high carb diet, do they need to make sure their diet is low sugar? Or is that insignificant if fat is low? Do the carbs need to be whole grain/complex carbs? Will refined carbs have a similar enough effect? I know the whole foods approach is the best. But if someone is eating low fat and the appropriate amount of food, will they gain fat eating refined carbs versus whole grains? Is the definition of low fat 15% or less of a person's daily macros? Thank you so much for all your life-changing advice. Love, Grace.” Wow, that's a lot of questions. [laughs] Grace, you're a gifted student, because they have a lot of questions.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you, Grace, for your email and all of your questions, all of the fruit. The first thing I want to focus on was she said, I said that I feel ravenous when fruit is in my diet. To clarify, so I was eating high carb, low fat for a very long time with a ton of fruit and I was not ravenous at all. And then I went low carb, high fat again. And then every time I tried to bring back fruit, that's what I got the ravenous feelings. Just to clarify, I actually currently am doing high carb, low fat, high fruit.

Gin Stephens: And how are you feeling?

Melanie Avalon: I'm still struggling with hunger. I'm still trying to figure it out.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I have to have a certain level of fat or I get hungry.

Melanie Avalon: I typically do have fat for meat and seafood, but it's not usually added fat. But I do have a lot of thoughts on this. It is all going to come back to as we always say is finding the diet that works for you. When it comes to fruit, I've seen this a lot, especially in my groups, which friends, join my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, people post about this all the time. I really want to talk about the sugar thing. I personally do not automatically equate fruit to sugar. I know technically fruit is sugar, but there's a big difference between refined sugar which Grace talks about a lot in her question as well. Like sugar, like white sugar, high fructose corn syrup, which I think it has a lot of metabolic issues compared to “sugar” from the natural whole foods form of fruit.

Please send it to me if you find one. I have never seen a study showing-- I should probably sit down, try to actually find one, but I have never seen a study showing negative metabolic effects from whole foods form of fruit. There might be one out there. Actually, I read a lot of studies about fruit, I guess it depends on the context, but there are a lot of studies showing fruit having beneficial effects on diabetes and things like that. It's usually things like blueberries and stuff that they're testing. The demonizing studies on fructose, which is what gets linked to fruit is usually on high fructose corn syrup, which you just can't compare. It’s basically the refined form of sugar in a liquid form and the ratio isn't even-- it's like even higher fructose than what would normally be found in fruit. It drives me crazy [unintelligible [00:49:33] what drives me crazy also is they will do studies on refined fructose and compared to refined glucose or something and they'll test the metabolic effects, and then people extrapolate from that. They're like, “Oh, fructose--”

Gin Stephens: Fruits bad and fruits bad. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, here's the thing, friends. Fruit is not 100% fructose anyway. It's usually fructose and glucose. Oftentimes, fructose and glucose and sucrose, which is a combination of fructose and glucose. There's no fruit where it's just refined fructose, that just doesn't happen. You get that from agave nectar, which-- okay, so now I'm on tangent.

Gin Stephens: Which had that halo effect of health. People like, “Agave nectar, it's so good for you.” No, no, no.

Melanie Avalon: People thought it was really great because fructose does not release insulin. I don't know if it's 100% it doesn't release it, but it has very minimal effect on insulin. It goes straight to the liver and is processed by the liver, compared to glucose, which instigates insulin to be shuttled into cells. People thought it was really great for diabetics. How it turns out is that refined fructose in the liver is not a good situation. That's where a lot of problems come from. It's linked to fatty liver, it just creates a lot of problems.

Gin Stephens: We have gone far from an “Apple a day keeps the doctor away,” to, “Oh, my God, apples are destroying your health.” No, they're not.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Looking at fruit in terms of sugar, I don't even like using the word sugar because I feel words are really powerful and semantics are really important. I would look at it as 50 to 70 carbs from fruit, that's the way I would look at it. All of that said, some people do really, really well on fruit and it works so well for them. It fixes their hunger. So many people in my group, historically, have been on a low carb, high-fat approach. And then, after listening to some of my episodes, like I did an episode with Cyrus and Robbie, who wrote Mastering Diabetes. That's at, melanieavalon.com/masteringdiabetes. I recently did an episode with Dr. Doug Graham who did The 80/10/10 Diet, that's at melanieavalon.com/801010. After listening to episodes like that, they decided to actually try a high carb, low fat approach.

This is not what Grace is experiencing, but many people have found that actually, finally they have satiety, they feel better, they lose weight. It's definitely something to try for a lot of people, if it's not working for you. Grace is experiencing hunger, then it might not be the thing that works for you.

Gin Stephens: Here's the thing, though, she did say that she's doing moderate protein, high carb, low fat and is loving it. I think the only problem is when she has a lot of fruit. It's like the fruit is causing her to not have satiety.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. Compared to grains or-- she's saying to the carbs need to be whole grain or complex carbs will work? Will refined carbs have a similar enough effect? Yeah, just you need to make sure that diet is low in sugar or is it just about the fat because we actually haven't had a question about that. We've received a lot of questions about going high carb, low fat. But we haven't had a question really about, could those carbs be processed sugar? Do they need to be grains? What they need to be complex? I think for most people, the refined form, if there is going to be a satiety problem, the refined form is probably not going to help you out in the satiety department. I would argue that probably a lot of the metabolic benefits that you're getting from the high-carb, low-fat approach are when it's in the whole foods form. It's really regulating your metabolism. Your body is preferentially using carbs when it needs to, it's entering the fasted state when you're fasted, but those blood sugar spiking, refined carbs are a completely different scenario.

I think they cause problems for a lot of people. I personally think it's important with a high carb, low fat to make them the whole food form of the carbs, and then trying to find the ones that work for you. For some people, it's the fruit. Some people do better with starches. I personally am not a big fan of grains, because I think they have a lot of inflammatory potential for a lot of people, but I think a lot of people can find grains that work for them. I personally love gluten-free options, like rice, quinoa, it's not technically a grain, but rice, quinoa, oats, things like that.

Then lastly, she said, “Can you gain fat eating refined carbs versus whole grains?” You can gain fat eating anything. I think you're more likely to gain fat 100% from refined carbs. Well, whole grains, I think in the refined form, you're most likely more likely to gain from refined forms of carbs. Then lastly, she says, “Is the definition of low fat 15% or less of a person's daily macros?” 15% is usually the highest that you'd want to go for the fat. If you are doing this approach. Oftentimes, it's as low as 10%. I don't remember in the Mastering Diabetes that they even-- I don't know if they even give macros. They might just do like a whole foods approach.

Gin Stephens: I swear I think it's 10%.

Melanie Avalon: Is it? I know 80/10/10 is obviously 10.

Gin Stephens: But I really feel I got that 10% after reading their book. I think they said it because that was when I looked to see what my DNA analysis had said and that was 10%. So, I was like, “Oh, look, these match.”

Melanie Avalon: Okay, from what I've seen in all the research, and Denise Minger, we talked about this a lot on this show, but she has an epic blog post that analyzes a high carb, low fat diet, and all the studies that she referenced, like you really had to be 10% or less of fat to see the benefits. That's something that when I interviewed them, we talked about that a lot. This also applies to the flip side of things with a low carb diet. Oftentimes, people really have to be 10%, or lower, be it from carbs or fat, depending on which version of what macros they're doing, to see that the metabolic benefits because it's like, if you have just a little bit too much, it's like you're shooting yourself in the foot, because you're giving your body too much of that one signal, even if it's by just a little bit, and then it's not really able to enter-- what Denise calls the “metabolic magic” that you can get from a high carb, low fat approach.

I'm just reading, this is really interesting, because I was searching through Mastering Diabetes. For example, in a low-fat diet, they say that and people who eat a high carbohydrate diet containing between 65% to 75% carbohydrate, this is 10% to 20% fat per day, de novo lipogenesis, which is fat created in your liver from carbs that accounted for less than 10 grams of newly synthesized fatty acids per day. Basically, if you are on a low-fat diet, really high carb, your liver is very inefficient at creating fat from the carbs, which is really fascinating. But, yeah, 10% would be a good place to start this really long. Gin, do you have thoughts?

Gin Stephens: I think we got them.

Melanie Avalon: I think so.

Gin Stephens: I think we did. If you find that fruit is making you have trouble with satiety, that's a big key that maybe-- the tweak that you've been having lately, where you're not having as much fruit, that might be what's working for you. I don't eat a ton of fruit personally. So, yeah, listen to your body. Boom.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that made me think of one more thing because she asked what might be going on there with the hunger. This has been my theory for a long time, and I still think this might be the case for a lot of people. It's what the Ray Peat people talk about a lot. That is that, your body's potential to rely on glycogen storage-- Oh, and actually something else to say about this, because this came up a lot in-- I've been listening to a podcast-- did I send it? I think I sent it to you, Gin, the recent Peter Attia podcast about metabolism.

Gin Stephens: You sent me something, I didn't have time to listen to it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm still listening to it and it's like, A, I need to finish it. B, I need to listen to it three more times. C, I need to see if there's a transcript and I need to read the transcript. It is the deepest, deepest dive into metabolic dysfunction and how that relates to processing fuels, glycogen storage, fatty acids, I mean, it's insulin resistance, it is blowing my mind. Something that he talks about in that is that, like with insulin resistance, where is the issue-- it's much more of a deep dive even then Dr. Benjamin Bikman’s book, which I recently had on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, his book is Why We Get Sick, which is all about insulin resistance. The Peter Attia episode which I put in our Intermittent Fasting podcast, Stuff We Like playlist on the Himalaya app, it's like a mystery novel. They're talking about where is the actual issue happening with the body's inability to use insulin and use food fuels properly. One of the things they talk about is basically the muscles inability to take up glucose, basically our glycogen storage potential and the muscles inability to properly use and take up carbs. I think that's what's happening a lot with this is, for whatever reason, the body is insulin resistant and not taking up the “sugar” from the fruit. It can create these blood sugar swings. I need to finish that episode. I'm going to try to do that today. I will probably just start it over listening from the beginning, it's that whole thing.

Gin Stephens: Listening to you describe it, tells me I could never follow it. I'm not a good auditory learner.

Melanie Avalon: It's intense when Peter at the beginning gives an intro saying like, “This is really intense--” because all of his shows are really intense. Any of his episodes that you listened to, they can be hard to follow. When he gives a preface saying that this is really, really deep, then you know it's going to be. I posted in my Facebook group and so many people, I'm jealous, they did listen to it and have been reporting back already. I'm like, “I’ve got to get on that.” That was a lot of tangents. Last thoughts from you, Gin?

Gin Stephens: No, that was it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners, before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. You can get all this stuff we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram. Gin, how is Instagram going?

Gin Stephens: I'm really doing better. I'm mindfully using it. Also, here's something funny. I had the app inside of a folder on my home screen, and so I took it out, just having it out of the folder and I see it, and I think about it more.

Melanie Avalon: I'm looking on your Instagram right now and I see your face.

Gin Stephens: There I am. I actually posted it during while we were recording. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yes, 46 minutes ago.

Gin Stephens: I did it while we were recording.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, in your house with your cats galore.

Gin Stephens: Well, the one I posted was me in front of the fireplace.

Melanie Avalon: The swamp. There's a picture of the swamp you went to.

Gin Stephens: Yep, there's the swamp. If you go to Instagram, you can see--

Melanie Avalon: You guys, visuals.

Gin Stephens: You can see the swamp. Oh, and also you can see that my college, Wake Forest, is going to the Duke’s Mayonnaise Bowl. Is that not the funniest thing you've ever heard of?

Melanie Avalon: That's fabulous.

Gin Stephens: It will have already happened by the time this podcast comes out, but I'll just see that on Instagram. Duke's Mayonnaise Bowl, but that's my favorite mayonnaise. So, boom.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh. That's so funny. Did you see I posted a video, a biohacking video?

Gin Stephens: No, I don’t watch any videos.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I posted my first. Wait, Gin, look at my Instagram later, I posted to Reels. Listeners, I'm doing Reels now. It makes me so happy because you know I love film. I went to film school. This is like, I'm like, “Oh, I can be like making videos.” I posted one if you go to my profile, one of me putting on a CGM. So, you can see what that's like, and then one about--

Gin Stephens: Is it like a live video?

Melanie Avalon: You'll see it. If you go to my Instagram, there's two recent ones, they look very red because I'm in my Joovv red light. There's a little video icon in the top right corner. Those are the Reels. So I put one of how to put on a CGM, so friends can see that. And then I put one of kind of a joke, when he finds out that you are a biohacker, like somebody you're dating. You have to watch it because it has music that it makes it a joke.

Gin Stephens: Well, do not expect to see me doing Reels, just FYI. I will not do Reels. If you're lucky, you'll see cats and things like that.

Melanie Avalon: I am obsessed. I have one that I'm going to really soon it's going to be my night routine. I got such an amazing response to the dating biohacking one that I sort of wanted to create an app now for dating, for biohackers.

Gin Stephens: We've actually had people joke that they would like an intermittent fasting dating app.

Melanie Avalon: Well, actually, that's what-- I was doing by hacking, but then I was like, it should be an--

Gin Stephens: Honestly, people have suggested that.

Melanie Avalon: Gin, we should do it.

Gin Stephens: For real.

Melanie Avalon: You know what it could be called? I already came up with a name. Do you want to hear the name? You know window shopping?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, it's because window dating.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's funny.

Melanie Avalon: And it can be based on your window.

Gin Stephens: Unfortunately, my app developer said no more apps for you, Mama. That's my son. [laughs] He should not be so quick to do that because the Window app that he made for me, he made it for me, but then he sold it. I didn't see a penny from that. I mean, I didn't make any money from the Window app at all. I went to him, which is indirectly helpful because it was my son, and so I didn't have to give him any money. He had money. He spent a lot of time working on that Window app. So, he's like, “Nope, done with that. Done with apps.” I'm like, “Okay.”

Melanie Avalon: I'm proposing that you and I make a Window Dating app.

Gin Stephens: Window Dating app. That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: We could promote it on this show and the groups.

Gin Stephens: All right, listeners, write in, let us know. Are you interested in that?

Melanie Avalon: Would you want this? Because I want to do it.

Gin Stephens: I don't know that. I don't want to date. I'm married.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I don't want to--- No, I actually wouldn't use it. I wouldn't use it. I'd be the worst person to develop it. I've never even opened a dating app.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to be celebrating my 30th anniversary this year in 2021. So, 30 years married. We didn't have apps.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I just don't date, so solves that problem. We should do it.

Gin Stephens: Again, neither of us know how to do it. We don't know anything about dating apps.

Melanie Avalon: I'll figure it out. I can suck it up and use a dating app for research purposes.

Gin Stephens: That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: Wouldn’t that be funny? I could start going-- [crosstalk]

Gin Stephens: The joke was, you know how they had that commercial farmersonly.com? farmersonly.com or something. I don't know. We could be fastersonly.com.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I like it. That would be a really good movie plot. Somebody's doing research for dating apps, so they have to use the apps and then they fall in love obviously, and then you know--

Gin Stephens: Well, there you go, see. And they're intermittent fasters and-- it would need to be an intermittent fasting movie.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, well, I could be testing my own app. I'd have to use the other apps to figure out--

Gin Stephens: What you liked and what you didn't.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Listeners, I do not think we're going to be developing this app, I'm just telling you.

Melanie Avalon: I think we are.

Gin Stephens: Do not look for this app anytime soon.

Melanie Avalon: I'm doing it. I'm going to hang up and I'm going to go call somebody right now.

Gin Stephens: You're going to join the dating apps? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: No, I actually been thinking about this a lot. The one thing I'm hesitant about is, I feel the customer service issue because my app right now, I mean, it's doing so well and I think I said this, it hit number five for Food and Drinks Apps in iTunes, which was so exciting, and it was developed by Cal, Gin’s son, but it doesn't really have a lot of like customers-- I don't have to deal with customer service. I feel with a dating app.

Gin Stephens: You would. See, Cal does app stuff for Airbnb, but he's on one tiny little team, I can't even remember what it is. There are so many people who work just on that one app, for example for Airbnb. It's not like one person does it. It's like teams of people for each little thing. It's way more complicated when you have users doing.

Melanie Avalon: It would require more. For me, it wouldn’t.

Gin Stephens: I think it would.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe we could do it all ourselves.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Listeners, do not be on the lookout for this anytime soon.

Melanie Avalon: Write in now and tell us that you want this. Convince Gin, I'm already sold.

Gin Stephens: That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Okay. Well, this has been wonderful.

Gin Stephens: It's been fun.

Melanie Avalon: Anything else from you, Gin? Oh, right, follow us on Instagram. She's GinStephens. I'm MelanieAvalon. Now I'm done. Anything from you, Gin, before we go.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I see that you just liked my picture that I posted while we were recording. Do you see how good my hair looks in the picture? I'm just going to say that's Beautycounter shampoo. My hair looks so much better.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, your hair looks fabulous.

Gin Stephens: Doesn't it? I just use Beautycounter shampoo, that's it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm Beautycounter shampoo.

Gin Stephens: How could one kind of shampoo? They don't have all these varieties. It's one kind, I was like, “Yeah, that's not going to work.” Well, alas, it does. My hair looks so good now. That's all I'm saying.

Melanie Avalon: All of my pictures of my hair's Beautycounter shampoo as well. Friends, go get Beautycounter shampoo right now. You can get that melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.


Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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