Welcome to Episode 246 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!
1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The Ultimate New Year’s Bundle, More Than 7 Pounds Of Meat Added To Your First Box For FREE!!
BEAUTY AND THE BROTH: Go To melanieavalon.com/broth To Get 15% Off Any Order With The Code MelanieAvalon!
24:30 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!! Learn All About Electrolytes From Our Great Interview With Robb Wolf!
28:00 - Listener Q&A: Taylor - Window Placement Issues
32:50 - Listener Q&A: MaryEllen - Celery Powder
49:05 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!
51:20 - Listener Q&A: Christine - Mushroom Supplement
Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 245 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you wan to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
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Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 246 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and here with, Gin Stephens.
Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.
Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?
Gin Stephens: Well, I'm so excited. I have something I want to say that I'm excited about. But first, I want to tell you, thank you, for my Christmas present.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, I was going to ask you if it came.
Gin Stephens: It did, it did and I love it. It's a bread warmer, everybody.
Melanie Avalon: Do you have one?
Gin Stephens: No, I don't have one. I always just throw it, you know, bread in a basket and put like a dish towel over it and wrap it up. But this is official. It's like a stone that you warm in the oven, and it's in a little basket, and you put the bread on top of it. It's really going to keep the bread warm. So, that's very exciting.
Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. I saw it in a catalog and I was like, "Gin Stephens needs this."
Gin Stephens: And we're recording this the week before Christmas. Has yours come, yet?
Melanie Avalon: No. I don't think so. Unless, it's there today. Okay, I was sad because I ordered it and they had a version that had a top, but it was completely out of stock and wasn't going to come in until January. But I think, I don't know if I can order the top separately.
Melanie Avalon: I don't need the top because I'm probably going to still cover it with a dish towel or a cloth napkin. Let's say, it's Thanksgiving, and I have a bunch of people over, and I have all the rolls. I'll put them in there and they'll probably be bigger than the container like domed up a little bit, and then, I'll put something on top to hold it in there. So, a top would just like limit the amount of bread I could put in.
Melanie Avalon: Okay. That makes sense because I know nothing about bread baking and I was like, "Why do they even make a version without a top?" But okay, that makes sense.
Gin Stephens: Well, but I usually have more bread [laughs] than that if I have a lot of people. So, that's perfect.
Melanie Avalon: Yay. I didn't even know this was a thing until I saw it. I was like, "That's cool."
Gin Stephens: Well, I never would have thought to get one but I love it. But I have another thing to share because the date that this episode is coming out is the day before Clean(ish) arrives. I'm so excited. I actually just got two big boxes of books from my publisher and the boxes said Gin Stephens, Clean(ish) on the outside. It's like the book. That's what they're sending to bookstores or wherever they're sending. It was like the official book box with what was inside.
Melanie Avalon: I would be more excited by the box.
Gin Stephens: I was so excited by the box. You know, it was like, "Do not put on sale till January 4th." It's like, "We're not kidding." I'm really excited. But it is so great to hold the final copy in my hand because the copy I had before was the early reader copy that it's not formatted properly, and it has the typos still in it. So, to have the real one, it looks so beautiful and I just am loving it. So, if you haven't pre-ordered everybody, this is honestly your last day to pre-order. And if you pre-order the electronic or the audible version, you'll have it tomorrow. But if you order the paperback, you'll have it soon as soon as Amazon can get to you, but pre-orders really help a lot.
Melanie Avalon: Did you see my story? I pre-ordered on Audible.
Gin Stephens: I actually did see that. Oh, this past week I got my list of what my pickups that I had to do from recording the audiobook and there were only six lines I needed to read again. It was like, I was amazed. Yes. [laughs]
Melanie Avalon: What was it last time? Was it more?
Gin Stephens: I can't even remember. The producer was like, "This is amazingly short of a list." I credit that to the wonderful team that was with me while I was doing it. They caught most of it while I was live with them. We actually did it from home that they were on with me. I had an engineer and also director on with me. So, if I made a mistake, they caught it. So, it's not really that I was such an excellent reader, I'm not taking the credit. It was that I had a great team and they were fabulous.
Melanie Avalon: That's very exciting. Can they send me a copy, so, I can take pictures and promote?
Gin Stephens: Absolutely, I will make that happen.
Melanie Avalon: So, I can promote it before it comes out.
Gin Stephens: Yep, we'll see if how fast we can get there. But yeah.
Melanie Avalon: Actually, maybe not.
Gin Stephens: Well, we have a while because we're a couple of weeks out here in the real world, even though, listeners are one day away. But here's something else is exciting. Can I just share one more thing?
Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.
Gin Stephens: Sometimes, I like to make sure that Delay, Don't Deny isn't counterfeit. For example, being sold by a third-party person. So, I'll look at Amazon just to see how things are going, and I want to see how Clean(ish) is doing. The pre-order for is like new releases, how's it ranking? Fast. Feast. Repeat., though has been number one in weight loss on Amazon for weeks. Like, number one on weight loss.
Melanie Avalon: That's insane.
Gin Stephens: I'm just sitting here in my house in Augusta, Georgia like, "I've got the number one weight loss book on Amazon week after week." It's like shocking. It's done pretty well all along but you know, The Obesity Code has been number one all the time. Usually, The Obesity Code. Sometimes, Fast. Feast. Repeat., will be there. But it has been solid number one at least a month, I think.
Melanie Avalon: Do you think that's because of the growing interest in intermittent fasting?
Gin Stephens: Well, I do and I feel like, it's the go-to book that people are reading. For example, in the Delay, Don't Deny Community, if anyone's interested in finding that go to ginstephens.com/community. There's a link there. But it's our paid membership community that I'm just loving because I can spend a lot of time there. It's a great supportive place. But one of the members said, she found Fast. Feast. Repeat., because she went to her doctor's office for a routine visit and was talking about her health in general. He had a photocopy of the front of Fast. Feast. Repeat. taped to the-- You know, how to have cabinets in the exam room?
Melanie Avalon: Yeah.
Gin Stephens: It was taped to the cabinet. So, she sent me a snapshot. She showed it to me. So, her doctor is got my book taped up in his exam room like a picture of it, like read that. That blows my mind. I'm like, "What? How is this even possible?" It's because I'm a teacher. That's the only thing. I'm not like a health guru or a big expert, but apparently teachers can write a good book. I just taught through it. That was it. So, anyway life is good. It feels a little bit like surreal. I don't know who that Gin Stephens is, but she's done a good job. [laughs] Oh, yeah, that's me.
Melanie Avalon: Every now and then, I'm like, "What if I wake up?" And this was actually all a dream. I have that moment sometimes.
Gin Stephens: You know, like, right this minute, it's the five-year anniversary of Delay, Don’t Deny. Not today. But five years ago, I was putting the finishing touches on it today as of this recording day. I was finishing it. I was waking up in the middle of the night like editing in my sleep, still finishing it. It came out December 31st of 2016. So, we're five years into Delay, Don’t Deny and it changed my entire life having that book.
Melanie Avalon: That's a shocking amount of-- Like, I don't know, the years go by so fast, but that is so much. I don't want to say progress, but so much. I mean so much has happened just in those five years.
Gin Stephens: Yeah. You know, 2017 was the year we met and started doing the podcast. 2018 is when What When Wine came out, right?
Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gin Stephens: 2018 is when I started Intermittent Fasting Stories. It just has grown and grown.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah.
Gin Stephens: I'm so grateful to every listener, everyone who's read the book, everyone who's recommended it to somebody else, and everyone who's shares intermittent fasting without fear, because that's why it's so popular and widespread. It's the people. This is a true grassroots effort. You know, a teacher from Augusta, Georgia, writing a number one weight loss book that is growing and growing, and the community is growing and growing, and here we are. Happy New Year. [laughs]
Melanie Avalon: I know. It couldn't be possible without our community.
Gin Stephens: Exactly. The community is amazing.
Melanie Avalon: It really, really is. Especially, I listen to a lot of stuff about people moaning and groaning about social media. I understand because I think social media is creating so many issues today and it's a very toxic environment in general. But my experience with it, it's just so wonderful. My community and everything, and so I'm really grateful for everything.
Gin Stephens: My Facebook community was 99.9% wonderful. But when you have almost half a million people, even 0.1% hurt, [laughs] which is why it got too big for me. Someone said, I don't know if I said this on the podcast before. Someone said, "Oh, Gin got too big for Facebook." I'm like, "I thought, I was too good for Facebook or something?" I'm like, "Actually, it's the opposite. Facebook got too big for me. I couldn't manage it anymore and I just couldn't and have a good quality of life." But I'm grateful to the time I spent on Facebook.
And even that 0.1% of roughness was worth all the headache and there were tears, it was hard. I'm grateful for the whole experience because I'm really enjoying the private community. Like I said, we're over 2,000 members there, since we switched it to the new, new platform, which is so good. We're loving it, and everyone is really finding the support we wanted all along. But anyway, life is good, and I'm grateful, and intermittent fasting makes it easy just to feel good in my life, too, right? It's the gift that keeps on giving.
Melanie Avalon: I was reflecting on that actually, this morning, because I was thinking about how before intermittent fasting with the holidays, even when I was doing like low carb, I guess, it was just low carb because when I did paleo, I was already fasting. In any case, before intermittent fasting, whenever the holidays would come around, I would be so nervous about weight gain, and all of the holiday food, and recovering. I was just thinking about, I'm like, "There's no difference to me in the holidays now than there is the rest of the year." If anything, I do better during the holidays.
Gin Stephens: I do. You know I don't weigh. I haven't weighed for years now. Probably if I did weigh, would see weight gain over the holidays, because I do indulge more. Because there's just different kinds of events and different kinds of food. I have a fully festive season and then, that season is over. [laughs] I don't stress about it and any weight gain I do have goes away without me stressing over it. I don't like have to tighten up my belt January or get back on the wagon. I'm actually tired of the festivities by the time New Year's Eve is over. I'm like, "Okay, thank goodness." [laughs]
Melanie Avalon: I think, there's two types of approaches like who you still indulge more but it doesn't create these unchangeable ramifications. But then, like for me, I don't really indulge more because I literally don't crave it anymore. I'm just as happy eating what I normally eat that there's no point for me to have other things. So, they both work.
Gin Stephens: I'm going to make eggnog today, probably. Yeah, I wouldn't normally be having eggnog. I mean, we're still the week before Christmas here. So, when we're recording this, so, I'm going to make some RumChata eggnog. [laughs] We're going to enjoy it. But I'm not going to make eggnog all year long. Yeah, it just feels like we're sitting by the Christmas tree, I feel like, we should have something festive. Will's here. He's staying here at our house for a little while. He's got a house that he's been living in, but he was feeling lonely. He's like, "Can I just come back home?" He's 22 and he's got his cat, and he's like, "You know--" I think, he's had all the fun and he's like, "Yeah, that wasn't really as much fun as I was expecting." You know what I mean?
Melanie Avalon: With college?
Gin Stephens: Well, he's not been in college. He only went to college for a year and a quarter. He's just been here living at home for a while, but then he moved out. He moved out, I guess, two years ago.
Melanie Avalon: Gosh.
Gin Stephens: Yeah. He moved out two years ago and he's been living on his own for two years, but not in college. He's had all the fun he could have and he's like, "Okay, I'm done. Done with that if that makes sense."
Melanie Avalon: Is he not finishing college?
Gin Stephens: No. He dropped out of college after a year and a quarter. There's nothing that he wants to do in college right now. So, he's my musician, he's my artist.
Melanie Avalon: Artsy?
Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, he's playing music, he's got a band, and he likes to write music. But he's here at home and it just feels best of having him here. So, we're having our little holiday festive time. [laughs] So, what's up with you?
Melanie Avalon: I'm super excited because I'm on the cover of Biohackers Magazine right now.
Gin Stephens: That is really exciting. Is that like a paper magazine that you can actually get? Or is it a digital magazine?
Gin Stephens: It's digital.
Gin Stephens: It's still exciting.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, you can get it on Kindle or Google Books. I made a redirect link for it if you want to get it on Amazon. So, if you go to melanieavalon.com/biohackersmagazine or their website is biohackersmagazine.com. I'm on the cover.
Gin Stephens: That is so exciting.
Melanie Avalon: You're a great biohacker. [laughs] It has like an exclusive interview and I talk about fasting and wine, and I talk about the pandemic, and sleep, and it's really, really great. I had a really fun moment. So, it's created by a guy named Jean. I guess, his last name is Fallacara. But he's super incredible, he's really intense. He's all into calisthenics bodybuilding world. If you look at his Instagram, it's very impressive. So, it's his magazine and he wanted to have me on the cover. Yeah, so, that was exciting. But then something else that was fun was, I went on his IG Live this past week, and it's so interesting because Gin, have you done an IG Live?
Gin Stephens: I have. I don't love them. I feel silly talking [laughs], I don't know, I don't like it. Yes, I have.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, it's interesting, because you can see how many people are popping in and out. So, it was just an interesting experience. I've done them before, but not with like a really big audience. But he has like thousands of people who watch his Lives. So, you see this number ticking of like, now, there's 2,000 people watching, now there's 1,500. It changes so fast, because people on Instagram, it's just so interesting how fast people's attention is. So, it's so interesting to see that number. I was getting so fixated on the number like, "How fast it was changing?" Then, I was comparing it to this experience with a podcast because we have a lot more than 2,000 people who listen to this show. But there's something different about it not being Live. I was much more aware of the audience.
Gin Stephens: Doesn't it feel a little frantic? To me, it does when I'm on a Live.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I was much more aware of the audience and feeling watched or listened to, compared to this where there's thousands, and thousands, and thousands of people listening because they're not listening right now. It's very interesting.
Gin Stephens: Yeah, it really, really is. I don't even mind being on a radio show. I just don't like people looking at me live on a video. I don't know why. Looking into a camera like I'm actually better in front of a live audience than I am.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, me, too.
Gin Stephens: I don't mind being in front of a live audience. I'm going to do an event in January in Greenwood, South Carolina where I'm going to talk to just you know, people about intermittent fasting. For some reason sitting in front of the little screen trying, I don't know. [laughs] It's not my thing. I don't like doing lives at all. I don't like them. So, I just don't do them unless, I mean, I will if someone asks me and it's a big thing, but I'm nervous. I don't like it, it's out of my comfort zone anyway.
Melanie Avalon: Same page. So, yep. So, we'll put links to everything that we've talked about thus far in the show notes, which will be at ifpodcast.com/episode246. One more thing Gin to talk about before we jump in. So, this is the brand-new year, the first episode of 2022. So, something that's pretty exciting is we work with-- that's another thing to be grateful for. All the amazing brands we work with on this show, especially, just how many brands that are out there, and it's just really wonderful that we have such long-term relationships with so many companies, and its things we really, really truly care about and love. So, I wanted to announce that we have a new brand that I think is going to be throughout the entire year.
As listeners know, I'm a huge, huge fan of bone broth. I just think it's so, so healing for the body. Basically, it's a concentrated nutrient rich broth made from bones, and you get collagen, and so many nutrients that really, especially, can heal the gut lining. To clarify, I'm not talking about bone broth fasting. Bone broth is not fasting friendly. But I think, if you enjoy it, it's one of the best ways to break your fast actually, because at the end of a fast, your digestive tract is primed for receiving nutrients and it's the exact nutrients that your gut really needs to heal the lining.
Gin Stephens: Yeah, have them as a window opener. That would be a great recommendation. Bone broth window open, yep.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it'd be perfect for that, especially, if you have digestive issues, but really just in general. There are a lot of really great companies out there. Well, not a lot. There are a few great companies out there. But one of my new favorite companies is a fabulous woman named Melissa Bolona. I've had her on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, I can put a link to that in the show notes. She's also an actress, entrepreneur, started the bone broth company because she realized as an actress, she was having a lot of digestive issues, and skin problems, and she started drinking bone broth, and it had an amazing effect on her health, and her wellness and her, like, just perception of her vitality and all of that, especially, needing to be camera ready. So, she started her own company called Beauty & The Broth, and what's so cool about it is--
I know all of this having had her on the show. Originally, she was going to make the way most companies do, which is the actual bone broth. But that's actually really expensive to ship as you guys can imagine. When she was in a meeting trying to figure out formulations, she saw that they had the bone broth samples concentrated down and she was like, "What is that?" They're like, "Oh, well, that's just how we concentrate it down in the in between stage." So then, she was like, "Wait, can't we do that, if that's going to happen anyways?" So, yeah, so, she basically came up with this whole idea to sell bone broth concentrate that ships to your home.
Gin Stephens: I mean, that's genius. Because you're not shipping water. That's like the cleaning products that I use now. They send me the concentrate and I mix it up myself. So, it's like much better for the environment. You're not shipping giant packages of water into someone's house.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's much more environmentally friendly. Yeah, so it really is genius. It's much better for the environment. And then, the actual broth itself meets all of the criteria that you guys know I love. So, it's USDA organic, which I love. So, Melissa and I are really, really good friends now. I love hearing her lament about, ooh, the things that you have to go through to get USDA certification is just insane. So, it's USDA organic, it's shelf stable, it has no preservatives, oh, it has no salt added. That's huge. I was looking at all the other bone broths that I had in my freezer from other companies, because like I said, there are really great other companies but they all had salt. This one has no salt. It's delicious.
She has two forms right now. She has a grass-fed, grass-finished beef, and then, she has a free-range antibiotic and hormone free chicken. Again, both of those are completely organic. The other great thing is, you can take them on the go with you, because they're in these packets. So, she ships a reusable mug made of rice, which is so cool. So, environmentally friendly. And you can just heat it up and cook it in the rice. So, no plastic with that cup. I love it. My listeners, ever since I aired that episode have loved it. So, I'm just so excited to have her sponsoring so many episodes this year. So, you guys will be hearing a lot about it and definitely, definitely try it. You will love it. We do have a code for listeners. So, her website is thebeautyandthebroth.com and the code, MELANIEAVALON will get you 15% off. So, definitely check that out.
Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free electrolytes that are clean, fast approved. Yep, free electrolytes with no additives, no fillers, clean, fast approved, here's the details. So, as you guys know, I am a huge fan of Robb Wolf. He's basically my hero in life. He wrote The Paleo Solution, and he's the reason that I'm doing what I do today. He co-founded a company called LMNT. Because he realized just how important the role of electrolytes are in our health. And not just our health, but our performance, our wellbeing, and so much more. In fact, a lot of times, people struggle with issues on low-carb diets, keto, or fasting. They might be fatigued, or have headaches, muscle cramps, basically a decline in mental and physical performance. That's because electrolytes are key for your body's hormonal and cellular function. And when we fast or do low-carb diets, they can often get out of whack. Most electrolyte supplements on the market are full of crazy additives, sweeteners, extra calories, and toxic ingredients that you just don't need in your body. That's where LMNT comes in.
These supplements are formulated to give your body the exact electrolyte balance that you need including sodium, magnesium, and potassium because electrolytes are actually charged minerals that conduct electricity to power your nervous system. So, not only are they regulating your hydration status, they're actually determining how your cells conduct energy. If you want to learn all about the science of electrolytes as well as a lot of commonly asked questions like, can you just drink to thirst, is low sodium or high sodium dangerous, how should you supplement with electrolytes based on your diet and physical performance? Definitely, check out the interview I did with Robb Wolf on this podcast. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. I cannot tell you how many times I get listener feedback about people who have tried his LMNT and told me that it basically was the thing that felt like it turned their body back on. It's honestly, truly incredible. And it's not just you guys, LMNT is actually the exclusive hydration partner to Team USA weightlifting, also dozens of NFL, NBA, and NHL teams use and recommend LMNT, Navy SEALs, FBI Sniper teams, Marines, a lot of tech leaders, it is basically the supplement to get when it comes to electrolytes.
Because LMNT hears so many amazing stories from customers every single day and often hear about how people get samples and then just get turned on and then want to tell all of their friends, LMNT decided to have an amazing VIP offer for our community. Yes, in the spirit of the holidays, LMNT is launching their saltiest offer ever for a limited time. Our community will be able to claim a free LMNT sampler pack. It only covers the cost of shipping. That's $5 for US customers. That's right. You'll get eight packets of LMNT, eight different flavors, the offer is limited one time per customer. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IF-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. When you get that sampler pack by the way, the raw unflavored one is the one that is clean, fast approved. All the other ones will be for your eating window. Again, to get your free LMNT sampler pack, just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. And we'll put all this information as well as that link to Robb Wolf's episode in the show notes.
Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into questions for today?
Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started.
Melanie Avalon: To start things off, we have a question from Taylor. The subject is: "Window placement issues." Taylor says, "Hello, ladies. I have a lot of windshield time while working and I'm so glad that I found y'all's podcast. Y'all are wonderful to listen to and very informative. I am a 28-year-old male, father of three girls, two of them being twins. So, between home and work, I have very little extra time. Being so short on time, I go to the gym at 5 AM to make sure I get the exercise in, but I don't start my window until 11 AM for the 11:6 window. I guess, my main question is, what is better between eating after the workout or before bed to supplement my body?"
Gin Stephens: I guess, Melanie, he's asking like, "When does he need the protein, you think?" What do you think he means by supplement my body?
Gin Stephens: I just took it to mean like, what eating window should he be doing in general given the fact that he's exercising at 5 AM? So, should he be having an earlier window?
Gin Stephens: Closer to that?
Melanie Avalon: He says, or before bed. Well, I guess, he probably goes to bed earlier, too. He's getting up that early.
Gin Stephens: Yeah, he is getting up early.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, should he have like an earlier breakfast-lunch window you think or should you have like a lunch-dinner window?
Gin Stephens: I don't think there is a best answer for this Taylor, other than how do you feel. If you work out at 5 AM and then it's very easy for you to wait till 11 to eat, and that's a great time to open your window, and it fits with your routine, and then, you eat from 11:6, and then you close your window, and you continue to feel good, and then, you go to bed feeling good, then that sounds like ideal. Ideal is, what feels like a lifestyle to you, so that you don't want to be white knuckling it through your fasts on either end of your fast. If you eat too early, you might be too hungry later in the day. If you eat too late, you might be really hungry after your workout more like 11, 12 you're starving. So, don't fix what ain't broken, right? [laughs] If 11:6 feels good with your 5 AM workout, keep doing it.
On the flipside, if you find you're so hungry that you just can't wait till 11, then, maybe you need to shift a little earlier. Or, if you're closing at six, and then you're so hungry at eight you can't stand it, shift it a little later. It's just really all about finding the sweet spot that works for you.
Melanie Avalon: Yes, I cannot agree more. A really important question or actually, it is probably pretty important would be with the exercise, the type of exercise, and the goals of the exercise. Because he doesn't say anything about his stats, like he doesn't say if he's trying to lose weight, or if this is like muscle building, which are all different situations. Because for fat burning, for example, you might get the maximum fat burning benefit if you do wait longer to eat. You stimulated a lot of fat burning from the exercise, and then, you're really ramping up the fat burning mode with the fasting. But if it's not about that at all, it's like what Gin said. It would really be what's more comfortable for you.
One thing we do know we've talked about a lot in this show before is, there's a thought out there that you have to eat immediately after working out and a lot of that is likely not accurate. So, some people think on the fueling side of things, "Oh, you need to refuel right after working out." But especially, for like weight loss goals and things like that, that's not necessarily needed. Especially, if you're in the fat burning state, you have energy coming from yourself. It's not like you completely run out and then don't have energy. Then, for the muscle building, the anabolic window can be up to 24 hours. Meaning, you do have 24 hours to take in your protein to build muscle.
The only thing about building muscle per se is, there is the argument that can be made and this wouldn't exactly be super applicable for Taylor, because he already has a longer window that could encompass two meals. But it is possible that if you're actually trying to build muscle that you might benefit from multiple muscle protein synthesis moments. So, you might need a longer window with punctuated protein intake compared to one shorter window with a large protein intake. That's more for when you're getting into body building, muscle building, things like that. But yeah, it really is what's working for you. So, if you're doing what you're doing, and you're not hungry, and you're sleeping well, because sleep would the other thing, a lot of people adjust their windows to address their sleep habits. But if what you're doing is working, just do what's working.
Gin Stephens: All right, I think, we got it. We have a question from Mary Ellen and the subject is: "celery powder." She says, "Hi ladies, I've been intermittent fasting for a few years and I love it. I recently had my first colonoscopy, and they found a lesion that will need to be removed in a separate colonoscopy. So, I am now changing my diet to be more conscious about the threat of colon cancer. I followed the Atkins diet for about 10 years prior to starting IF. So, I have a history of eating a ton of meat, beef, chicken sausage, cold cuts, anything that didn't have carbs. Thanks to you. I, now know about grass-fed, grass-finished meat and I will be giving up all cold cuts. I've been doing some research on uncured products like the bacon from ButcherBox. I'm finding that companies are now using celery powder in their uncured products instead of nitrates. This sounds like it's becoming controversial, because celery powder isn't necessarily safe in the way it's processed, but is being listed as organic. Melanie, have you looked into this at all? I know that you do a lot of research on the things you eat. Would you be able to give me any input if celery powder is truly safe? Thanks," Mary Ellen.
Melanie, this is just me adding, I'm interested to hear what you have to say because I haven't looked into celery powder at all. I don't eat even like bacon. I rarely eat any kind of bacon or cold cut or sausage. Well, I do eat like sausage but that's different. But when I say a sausage, I mean like a summer sausage, like a hot dog or you know what I mean by that, kind of sausage?
Melanie Avalon: Like hot dogs, yeah?
Gin Stephens: Well, but not exactly even like hot dogs. It is more like Hickory Farms kind of sausage or something. I'll use loose sausage that's very-- It's basically just ground pork with maybe some whatever in there. So, I'll be interested to see this. But I really don't eat a lot of cured meat. I can't even think of the last time I had bacon.
Melanie Avalon: Same here. I was excited to get this question for the reason that you just said, Gin, because I didn't know the answer. I was like, "Oh, that's actually I want to know this." So, I did a lot of research. First of all, I'm happy that you found the lesion that you had that colonoscopy. It's really wonderful that now you can be changing your diet accordingly. So, that's really, really wonderful that you found that. When it comes to meat and colon cancer, I'm not going to go into huge tangent on that. So, meat has been associated with colon cancer. The presentation of the studies has been a little bit overhyped because of material released by the WHO about meat being potentially a carcinogen. We talked about this on a recent episode, but the correlation is much stronger with processed meats, the correlation with actual meat, if you look at the actual data and what the numbers are saying, and especially, I think, if you take in factors like diet context, and the healthy user bias, and things like that, I'm not really personally worried about the meat-cancer connection. But the processed meat does have a lot more evidence behind it.
One reason for that is because of the added nitrites and nitrates. That's what we're getting to with the celery powder here, that whole conversation. There's nitrites and nitrates. They're different things but they can have the same effect. They are added to meat for a few different reasons when they're curing meat to make processed meat like bologna, and bacon, and sausages, and things like that. So, they help preserve the meat, they work as anti-microbials. So, they can get rid of a lot of potentially problematic bacteria that can grow in meat, they give them meat a pinkish color. So, bologna, for example, would actually be great if it didn't have--
Gin Stephens: Oh, gross. [laughs] I'm sorry. That just sounds-- I don't think anyone would eat grey bologna. What do you think?
Melanie Avalon: I know, I know they extend the shelf life and they also add a flavor, and I thought this is really interesting. I was researching the flavor that they add. So, there's like this distinctive flavor that's in all processed meats, and it's really hard to put your finger on it, and they don't actually know what part of the nitrites and nitrates cause it, but it is from that. So, the problem is that, when these nitrites and nitrates I'm lumping them together, but when they're exposed to high heat, or iron, or if they bond with protein, those are things that are often found in meat. So, protein, iron, and then, meat is often heated, they can convert to nitrosamines and those are the compounds linked to cancer. So, nitrites and nitrates themselves are not carcinogens, but nitrosamines that they can form are.
Our dietary load of nitrates and nitrites is actually about 50% to 75%. This was data from the UK and France, not the US. But this seems to be the general idea across the board. So, about 50% to 75% of our overall dietary intake every day is not from meat, it's actually from vegetables and water. It's a very small amount, even if you're eating processed meats that comes from meat. That said, it is in a concentrated form in the meat and like I said it is linked to cancer. So, meats that are cured with added nitrates and nitrites, they often have vitamin C or vitamin E added because those antioxidants can actually stop that reaction. It can actually stop them from becoming nitrosamines. So, I found one really fascinating study and it said that, if there's a ratio of antioxidants of 2:1, so, two times antioxidants to nitrite, it actually will completely inhibit nitrosamine formation.
If you have adequate antioxidants that formation won't take place. I will not add added nitrates and nitrites to your diet. I do think that that's probably a reason that processed foods are linked to colon cancer. Okay, celery. So, in order to avoid this whole issue, companies started looking for alternatives to preserve meats and have the same effect. And celery powder is actually very, very highly concentrated in nitrites because remember how I said before that our vegetable intake is actually usually our highest source of exposure every single day. So, they're very high in celery.
The controversy is that, when nitrates and nitrites are added in the form of celery powder, it's not considered added nitrate or nitrite. So, the product can actually say that it's uncured, even though, it's technically cured, it's just cured through the celery powder instead. The product can also say because of the regulations and I'm not going to stop myself and going on a tangent, but it's like the supplement industry like the nuances of regulations and how things can get twisted. The celery can be non-organic and it can be added for this purpose to an organic product. Why is that a problem? The EWG actually did a study and the vegetable with the highest amount of pesticides and chemicals was non-organic celery.
Gin Stephens: Probably, because it is so watery, that makes sense. Like it just holds on to things, right?
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It concentrates all of them. The irony is that you could have some organic "uncured meat," and then, you flip it over, and it has celery powder. So, it actually still has nitrates and nitrites and that celery powder is likely not organic. Then, on top of that, a further issue is that, when the nitrates and nitrites are in the form of added nitrates and nitrites, they have to be regulated. So, there's a maximum amount that can be in the product. When it's in the form of celery, it doesn't have to be regulated. So, we don't know but there could actually be way more nitrates and nitrites in theory, if celery powder is added because there's no regulation. All that said, some people say, "Well, it's from celery powder. So, it's more natural and it has probably more natural antioxidants and it's not as problematic."
I thought for sure there would be like a really good study comparing celery powder to added nitrates and nitrites. So, I did find one study comparing them and it found that, when celery juice was added, used as a nitrite it created between 30 to 60 milligrams per kilograms of residual nitrate levels compared to 90 for added nitrites. So, somewhere between 300% or I guess, we're doing it reverse somewhere between 50% to 300% more in added versus celery. So, where do we go from here? Basically, I think that, oh, and then, one last point is that, the nitrites and the nitrates from celery can have the same effect. They can still convert to nitrosamines. It's really going to be the context of, are they in a context of heat, of iron, of proteins, and are there ample antioxidants? So, where do we go from here? I think that it's definitely something to be wary of. So, we are huge, huge fans of ButcherBox. They are actually a sponsor on today's show. They do have a bacon. For example, that is said to be like nitrate free, but that's because it has no added nitrates or nitrites. It still has the celery powder.
If I had to choose between bacon with added nitrates and nitrites from pure form, chemical formulation compared to the celery, I would still probably choose the celery. I'm just more comfortable with that but that said, I think, it's really important just to have this education and make the choice for yourself. What's probably most important with all that is the actual meat itself. So, with ButcherBox's bacon, for example, like, it's pasture raised, it's sustainable, it doesn't have added sugar. So, if you're like a bacon person and you're having bacon, I would look at the entire context and make your decision with all of this in mind. But if you are super concerned about colon cancer like Mary Ellen, it probably would just be best to avoid processed meats. So, if you're ordering ButcherBox, maybe don't get the bacon maybe get everything else. That was really, really long, Gin. What are your thoughts?
Gin Stephens: Well, you know, that just goes to show they can hide all sorts of things with innocent sounding words. We find that in all products, foods, cleaning products, personal care products, I talked about this a lot in Clean(ish). But here's the way I look at it. Think of a continuum of foods, right? Okay, I'm going to put bologna on the far end of ultra, ultra-processed probably don't want it. And then, on the opposite end of the continuum would be like, a slab of meat from a pig, like the actual just the pork, right? Just pork, and you're going to do something with it. Then, along that continuum, you've got things that are closer to the bologna, things that get closer just the pork itself. And that's the whole part like I talk about being Clean(ish). Where are you going to fall on that continuum?
You could only eat the whole pork and that's. I was going to say, you couldn't but then I thought Melanie probably does, [laughs] decided not to say that. But most of us are probably not going to only just eat the pork. We're going to be on that continuum somewhere. So, I think like a ButcherBox kind of bacon is definitely closer to that, just the pork side. I just tried to be closer to that when I can. If you have a real health concern that you're really working on, then, you might want to err on the side of not having any processed meats at all. But it's really easy to avoid the super processed ones like the bologna's and the standard kind of bacon or things like that, the lunch meats. It's easy to not have those and just get closer to the real food continuum. You can start going down the rabbit hole of now you're afraid to eat anything and you're just eating like a slab of meat and vegetable. I don't want you to live like that, unless that is how you love to live. If it feels really good and that's how you like to eat, eat that way. But I'm going to eat bacon, I don't eat a lot of it. And that's why, I don't stress out so much.
If something happened to my food delivery box, that happens from time to time, it will get lost in transit. The packing company will lose it. I don't know. So, we have to scramble for meals. We sometimes do breakfast for dinner, and Chad will buy bacon. It doesn't happen very often, thank goodness. But you'll buy like a really good quality, high-quality bacon, and I'm sure it's got celery powder in it, but it's on that continuum closer to the better side. But we don't eat that a lot. So, I'm not even at all worried about it. Because we're getting the best bacon we can find locally. It's not an everyday thing. So, it's just a matter of coming to terms with what you can feel comfortable with. If you were rarely eating bacon, then, I wouldn't hesitate to use one that had a celery powder kind of a thing in it. If it's an everyday thing, then it's time to be a little more choosy about it. That's really how I decide.
If I were at a restaurant, and when I go out to eat, we don't have anything around me that's like super organic or you can't even find it. So, I don't even like investigate. If I wanted to eat a burger that had bacon on it, I would just eat it, and it would be closer to that bologna side of the continuum, but it's very rare. On the flip side, if I were someone who ate out a lot, I would be more choosy about what I chose to eat there. So, that's just a long way of saying, I think, the amount that you eat it, how much it's in your diet would determine how much you would want to be concerned about it. Does that make sense, Melanie?
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, I was actually thinking that. So, I'm glad that you that you said that for sure. Yeah, and then just like keeping in mind the context of everything, so, having some bacon that's like super, super cooked and burned with other iron and high heat is going to be a lot more problematic than like some bacon in the context of a salad or like the context can make a huge difference. So, especially, if you're adding those antioxidants.
Gin Stephens: Yeah. Oh, and by the way, I would eat bologna. Probably, not ever going to buy it but we used to eat fried bologna sandwiches and they were so good.
Melanie Avalon: See, fried bologna would probably not-- [laughs] That would be an example of.
Gin Stephens: You would not eat that ever.
Melanie Avalon: I was going to say, it'd be an example of a way to really increase the nitrosamine potential.
Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I'm sure, it would be awful. I'm sure, it would be. But I'm cleanish. I would not probably eat that a lot. But if I were somewhere, let's imagine I'd had a couple of beers. Okay, hypothetically, [laughs] and there was like a fried bologna sandwich. Oh, my gosh, I would totally eat it. But it's not a day-to-day thing. So, I wouldn't stress about it. Like you're not ruining everything by having that one time. But probably, I 100% would not eat fried bologna sandwiches every day of my life and I wouldn't feel guilty if I ate one. It's all about keeping your toxic load low as over time by making good choices most of the time.
Melanie Avalon: Exactly.
Gin Stephens: Clean(ish), available now. [laughs] Tomorrow, available tomorrow. [laughs]
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Melanie Avalon: So, we have one last question from Christine and the subject is: "Mushroom supplement." And Christine says, "I read that mushroom like Reishi, Cordyceps, etc., supplements should be taken while fasting but I really want to check with you first because I can't find information on this anywhere else."
Gin Stephens: All right. So, here's just a little quick tip. You can literally read that anything is okay to have while fasting like somewhere, just because you read it somewhere doesn't mean it's right with fasting. Because there is the train of thought that as long as you have fewer than 50 calories, it doesn't break a fast. I mean, I do not. Neither Melanie nor I agree with that. But that would mean you could literally have 50 calories, 49 calories of pizza, and it wouldn't break the fast. So, anyway, a lot of bad information out there. But I'm glad you're asking us, Christine. So, here's the thing. What you know, it depends if you're taking it as a supplement, we've got three fasting goals. We want to keep our insulin low by not taking anything that our body's going to think is food, anything that's going to-- we also don't want to stimulate digestion, we want to tap into our stored fat for fuel. So, we don't want to take in anything that's going to interfere with that. We want to keep autophagy going strong, we don't want to take in any source of protein, we want our autophagy to be maximized during the fast. For me, personally, my rule of thumb is, if it's food like I don't have it during the fast. So, I don't take supplements during the fast. Now, I will say, back when I took serrapeptase, oh, by the way, Melanie, I ordered some of your serrapeptase, it's coming.
Melanie Avalon: Oh really? Oh, my goodness.
Gin Stephens: Yeah. I ordered some. I want to see what it does. I'm just going to try it. Anyhow, so anyway, that is coming in. I will take that during the fast because it has to be kept away from food. Other than that, I don't take any supplements and I absolutely wouldn't take any supplements that were made from food, just personally as a rule of thumb. So, if I wanted to supplement with mushrooms, first of all, I would just probably eat mushroom. But I know these are some specialized mushrooms that have special properties. I would still keep it in my eating window. That's what I would do. Anything that's food like are made out of food, I just didn't like that sounds like food. I'm going to keep it during my eating window. So, what do you think about that, Melanie?
Melanie Avalon: I agree as well. It's interesting. Somebody was posting in my group yesterday asking about taking turmeric and serrapeptase at the same time. I was thinking about this concept, because turmeric, people take it as a supplement. But to me, turmeric, I still think of it as a food, like a spice. For me, anything that is food related like Gin said, I would not take fasted.
Gin Stephens: Here's something like turmeric for example. Can I just pop in with this? It actually works with food. I feel like, you would have better results from turmeric taking it with food. So, many things work synergistically with food. So, actually taking it in the isolated state is like not as good. It's not better.
Melanie Avalon: I agree. The difference to clarify with serrapeptase like, so, why is it magical? Like why can we take it during the fast? It's not a food. It's an enzyme. It's not providing any energy. I don't know what else to say besides that it's an enzyme. So, it's going into your bloodstream, and it's working on cells, and it's actually, I think, it synergistically works with fasting incredibly, because it's up regulating processes that your body would be doing while fasting. Like, breaking down old proteins and it's very much like in a way, it's like amplifying the fast, I think. So, anything that's like nutrient or food related, I would definitely take as part of your eating window and I agree, Gin that I think it works synergistically with your food when it's food related.
Gin Stephens: Yeah, like turmeric and black pepper work together. I mean, you would cook with both of them. If you're making a dish that had turmeric and would probably add pepper, because it's delicious and that's how we cook. But they actually, those compounds work synergistically together and provide more benefits together than they would in isolation. So, that's the thing. If we just stick with food, and the herbs, and the spices, and just keep them in the context of food, they're helping you get the phytochemicals out of the food. They work together and they give you more benefits together than if you're just popping a pill in isolation. I don't know. We've gotten said it like, we want to just take a pill for it or have it used in isolation when the magic is with the food.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and actually to that point, so, I'm actually super on the fence about the turmeric, black pepper combination, because that is often proposed as a way to make it more bioavailable. But then, I've listened to research saying, "The Black pepper does something with inhibiting some enzyme and something, something, something." I have to find the research that I was looking at. But basically, it's debated if that's actually what you want. So, that's why, I actually get nervous about concentrated pills that are black pepper-curcumin, or black pepper-turmeric combinations. But like in the context of a meal, adding pepper and adding turmeric, I just think it naturally regulates itself and probably does what it needs to be doing when it's in like its Whole Foods form. I actually get a little bit nervous with trying to figure out the specific mechanism of action of turmeric, and then, concentrating it.
For example, with turmeric, they'll often make curcumin supplements which is basically the active ingredient in turmeric that is often thought to be the cause of the health benefits. So, they'll make curcumin supplements. But then, the literature on curcumin isn't exactly what you would think it would be for all of the benefits that we see with turmeric. I think, it's probably because there's probably a lot going on synergistically with a lot of stuff in turmeric that just taking the isolated curcumin, it might not be having that same effect.
Gin Stephens: I, 100% talk about this in Clean(ish). No, yeah, Clean(ish), like we're going to talk about that. Yes, Clean(ish). [laughs] What's the name of my book, where am I, what am I doing? Anyway, in Clean(ish), I talk about this. We think that we know what is doing it. Like you just said, we think we've identified, this is the compound in turmeric that makes it so magical. Let's isolate it, and then, take just that. But really in these herbs, and spices, and plant foods like a tomato, there are thousands of phytochemicals in there. So, there are actually some studies, I can't remember exactly what it was about. But there was a study that I talked about that, off the top my head, they isolated the compound, and they're like, "This is going to be beneficial" and it actually made people worse when they isolated it. I can't remember what it was. But that just goes to show, we really don't know as much as we think we do. It's not like that's the one magical thing in there that's providing the benefit. It's really all of it is in there doing stuff.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, actually, the massive rabbit hole I'm in right now is, I've been researching for berberine, because berberine is this compound that has incredible effects and studies for regulating blood sugar levels, reducing A1c. People focus on it for blood sugar, but it does so many other things as well. Now, they make dihydrate berberine, which is like, it's one of the metabolites of berberine because it is supposed to have greater effects on blood sugar levels and be easier to absorb. I'm so haunted and torn right now about, is it possible that there are things in berberine besides the dihydrate berberine that maybe we're missing out? It's really hard to know.
Gin Stephens: I would say highly likely. That's highly likely. Because whenever we try to keep isolating, drilling down to that one thing, you're missing all those other things like, that you don't even know what they're doing, and they might be really, really important.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, not that I'm developing a berberine or anything, but I'm like trying to figure out the answer to this question. But yeah, it's really, really interesting and I think, context is so important and so key. Oh, and I want to throw in a link because if anybody would like to get my serrapeptase, you can get it at avalonx.us. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email email@example.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. Again, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode246. You can get all the stuff that we like and ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike and you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens, and I think, that is all the things. And Gin, happy launch night. So, for listeners listening today, is it like at midnight that it starts?
Gin Stephens: I don't know. I don't know, like when it downloads on your Kindle, I have no idea. [laughs]
Melanie Avalon: I will say, if you ever do a midnight launch, just take into consideration. People might not like it.
Gin Stephens: Look, I got nothing to do with this launch. I just wrote the book and turned it all in. The publisher is 100% in charge. If there's something wrong with a copy of your book, don't email me. I didn't know. That does happen sometimes. [laughs] Printing error, go back to where you bought it. They will be able to help you. I cannot help you. Believe it or not. I'm just the one who wrote the book. But in the publishing world, that's less important than you would think. I mean, no, not really. But you know what I mean? There's a lot of people with their hands on this along the way.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, congrats in advance. I'm very excited for you. This is very exciting. What a way to start the New Year?
Gin Stephens: I know. I'm so excited and scared. I'm scared.
Melanie Avalon: I was going to say, don't be scared, but I think all feelings are fine.
Gin Stephens: Well, when you put anything out into the world, you don't know how people are going to perceive it, or like it, or if they won't like it, and I know the main people who have read Clean(ish) so far, believe it or not, or people who are not in my main audience, you know, people like Abel James, or I mean, I love Cynthia Thurlow, but she doesn't listen to my-- You know, she's read it. You know, people like that, I was just on someone's podcast this week and he had a copy of it. So, those people have all really liked it. But I'm like, "But what if my audience doesn't like it?" Just because these other people like it, it doesn't mean my audience is going to like it. So, I hope, the people do.
Melanie Avalon: I'm sure your audience will love it. I haven't read it yet, but I don't see why they wouldn't, based on what I know.
Gin Stephens: I hope they do. It actually has more science. It's more sciency than anything I've written before.
Melanie Avalon: I can't wait to read it. I can't wait to have you on the show for it.
Gin Stephens: Well, I can't wait either. You know, it's long. It's like 400 and something pages long ,but there were things I had to leave out. I mean, you can't talk about everything.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. I know.
Gin Stephens: There're too many things.
Melanie Avalon: So many things.
Gin Stephens: It could have been like a million pages long. I finally would like had to stop writing things. [laughs]
Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm very excited, too. I'm going to listen to it on, because whenever I'm prepping for the show, it's always like, "Am I reading it or am I doing on Kindle, am I reading it or am I listening on the audiobook?" And yours, I will be listening on the audiobook.
Gin Stephens: I'll drop a copy in the mail because I've got all these copies that they sent me. So, I'll get a copy sent off to you. I can pop it in there.
Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.
Gin Stephens: All right, bye.
Melanie Avalon: Bye.
Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.
STUFF WE LIKE
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Gin's Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle
Feast Without Fear: Food and the Delay, Don't Deny Lifestyle
Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Clean Fast Protocol for Health, Longevity, and Weight Loss--Including the 21-Day FAST Start Guide
Clean(ish): Eat (Mostly) Clean, Live (Mainly) Clean, and Unlock Your Body's Natural Ability to Self-Clean
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Gin: GinStephens.com
Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com
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