Episode 333: Tone Device Gen 2, Measuring Breath Ketones, Ketosis, Fat Loss, Muscle Sparing, Protein Recipes, The Mandela Effect, And More!

Intermittent Fasting


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Sep 03

Welcome to Episode 333 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

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Listener Q&A: Niki - Could or should I increase my protein intake on the other days?

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Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 333 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone LUX red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 333 “Oh, such a cool number,” of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, palindromes. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

How are you, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I love the number. It's so in alignment, 333. So, yeah, feeling good about that. And three is one of my lucky numbers, so it bodes well for the episode. 

Melanie Avalon: That's wonderful. And okay, I know we literally just had a conversation about the tangents we go on, but I just have to [laughs] ask you something really quickly related, because every single night now, I go in this rabbit hole, wormhole of something related to numbers sometimes. Are you familiar with the Mandela Effect?

Vanessa Spina:  Yes.

Melanie Avalon: It's haunting me. Do any of them land with you.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah and I've heard them talked about a lot on podcasts too, the Shazam movie. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you remember that movie? 

Vanessa Spina: Yep, I remember. It was called Shazam and not Sinbad was in it. The other guy was in it. 

Melanie Avalon: I think it's Sinbad.

Vanessa Spina: There was someone in it. And then when you look it up now, it's been like purged from our collective media members.

Melanie Avalon: You remember the movie? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: See? Mind blown. The one that got me most recently was the rearview mirrors saying, objects in mirror fill in the blank closer than they appear. And then what is in the blank?

Vanessa Spina: Maybe closer than they appear.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, that's what I thought. I thought it was objects and mirror may be closer than they appear. That's what my mom said, my sister and I polled my audience and hundreds of people answered and half said it was that, but it's not. It's objects in mirror are closer than they appear. I went and looked at all the cars in the parking lot and that's what they say. 

Vanessa Spina: I remember it from-- there was, this in Jurassic Park. There's a shot in the movie where he's looking in the rearview mirror and they zoom in on the text and it always stayed with me, but I thought that's what it was. It's funny how yeah, I wonder how much of that is that effect and how much of it is just like, I don't know, just not remembering it properly or your brain filling in a pattern or something.

Melanie Avalon: Some of the really weird ones, though, like the Fruit of the Loom, do you remember that one? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, if you go down the reddit rabbit holes, there are so many people that remember learning what a cornucopia is, because they looked at that picture. So, why would thousands or millions of people have stories about learning what a cornucopia is by looking at the Fruit of the Loom thing if there's no cornucopia? That doesn't make sense. I think it has to do with reality changing. I'm not kidding. Now I've lost half the audience but I'm serious. 

Vanessa Spina: I think it has to do with that. I just don't stress about it too much. I'm like, “Whatever,” maybe we're in the matrix, there's a glitch in the matrix, I don't know I just can't focus on it too much or I won't get anything done.

Melanie Avalon: It's great. Chick-fil-A. I definitely spelled that “Chic” and my mom said she worked at Chick-fil-A in college and even she thought it was something different.

Vanessa Spina: That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: So, I don't know listeners, I want to do a podcast on this. I got to find some Mandela effects, like soap person.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you totally should explore it.

Melanie Avalon: I could talk about this for hours. So, yeah, I'm going to lose people here. I do think it might be either parallel realities interacting or some blip or blackhole. I think it could be something with reality.

Vanessa Spina: There're so many possibilities, if this is a simulation or not, or what's going on, but I spend so much time wondering these deep questions, these existential questions, and then I'm like, “Well, we're never really [laughs] going to know, so I may as well just get on with my life.”

Melanie Avalon: That's funny.

Vanessa Spina: There's only so much speculating you can do until you realize, “Well, you're never going to know either way anyway.”

Melanie Avalon: I just like thinking about it. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, for sure. 

Melanie Avalon: It doesn't bother me, but when people like-- you think there could be something going on, but you're like, “It's fine.” Some people are like, “Oh, that's not happening.” I mean, it might not be happening, but I don't know. I like thinking about it. I like pondering the possibilities of reality.

Vanessa Spina: Same. Yeah, same. I think there're these questions that haunt you and they kind of come up bubble up every day or every week, and you're like, “Yes. Still don't know the answer.” [laughs] But it is fun to just contemplate what could be. I think also, we've both talked about how we love Star Trek and just sci-fi stuff, and so definitely there's a lot to ponder of what all those infinite possibilities and what could be.

Melanie Avalon: Well, actually related to that, I think it's interesting that we just accept reality the way it is. But there are, “How do I say this?” We really judge some concepts of reality as, “Oh, that could never happen.” But then some things we just accept. The idea that red light and near-infrared light, like this invisible stuff, or near-infrared, it's invisible and it is energy and it goes into our body from this device and does things. But we don't think that's weird. But if that didn't exist, we'd be like, “Oh, that's weird.”

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's true. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Well, on that note, is there anything new in your world in this reality right now?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I've been so excited because some of you who are listening may know that I created a tone device, which is a breath ketone analyzer. It's kind of a huge passion of mine because I wanted to find a way that people could get biofeedback on their level of fat burning or how deeply they are in ketosis, especially if we're doing intermittent fasting or extended fasting just to get some feedback. That’s like, “What you're doing is augmenting your level of ketosis or deepening your level of fat burning.” I love biofeedback. I'm sure many of you listeners love biofeedback. It's like if you're running on a treadmill or exercise machine, you want to have the feedback of how long you've been on it and how many calories you're burning and your heart rate and all that just adds to the experience. So, I love data. The first generation of the tone has been amazing.

But I really wanted to create the second generation. I've been working on it for almost two years, about a year and a half of iterations of new devices. It's such a long process because every time you kind of go back to the drawing board with notes and then you test the new version and then you recalibrate something. So, we've changed a number of things. But the thing that I wanted to do with it based on feedback from people who are using the tone and love it, is that a lot of us who are doing daily intermittent fasting, we're not getting into 2.0 to 4 super deep ketoses. It's more like you could fast from say, dinner the night before to dinner the next day, a 24-hour fast, you will get into ketosis for sure. But the first generation was really really accurate, the more deeply you were in ketosis, because you get more ketones.

So, the level of acetone would be higher and therefore easier to measure. With breath it's very difficult because with the blood you're measuring millimolar units, which is like in the units of 1000. When you're measuring breath acetone, it's these tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny particles in parts per million. So, it's much easier to measure it when the concentration is higher. Anyway, we have a new airway mold, we have a new program, we have all these new features, and the device is so sensitive, it's amazing. I've been testing the latest version of it, which is the final version, I've decided, because it's working so well, it's performing so well, and it's making me so excited because it's picking up ketones of 0.1, 0.2. 0.3, 0.4, 0.5 really small ketones. But some of us in a day will get to say, if I fast from dinner to dinner, I usually get to 0.8 to 1 millimolar. 

And with the new second generation tone, you can see that. So, you can see if you test in the morning, you test in the early afternoon, you test before dinner, you can see your ketones going up. With the tone, you invest in one device. You don't have to buy all of those expensive wasteful test strips. You don't have to puncture your skin. You don't have to do any of the rigmarole that goes along with that. You can just test an unlimited amount of times and you just have one device. I always wanted to create something cost effective that would give people that biofeedback. I always found blood testing for ketosis was expensive and cost prohibitive. Most people at the most are going to test their ketones once a day, because if it's a dollar or 2 per strip and the costs have come down a little bit, they used to be even $4 or $5, they've definitely come down.

But this is just so much more convenient. If you're wanting to test your blood and you're at someone's house, you're at a restaurant, you have to go in the bathroom, you're not going to pull out your ketone strips in front of other people, your friends or family or whatever. But with the tone, you can just breathe into it. So, you can do it anywhere. [laughs] It's really cool. So, I'm super super excited for the second generation, and I think it'll be out in a couple of months from now. It just gives me goosebumps. It gets me so excited because the accuracy is so high and it's just very difficult to achieve this. But we're finally there and I couldn't be more excited [chuckles] about it. It's really really fun to use and just so valuable. Especially for people like us who do time-restricted eating and then if you do a longer fast, like a 36 hours or 72 hours, four or five-day fast, you also get that feedback, but just in the intraday fasting, like a lot of us do in this community, it can be a valuable tool for that. So, yeah, super super excited.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you. Okay, I can't wait till you're on my other show because I feel like I'm going to ask you so many questions. Get ready. [laughs] So, when you're developing this technology, who are you working with to develop it? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I have a factory and I have an institute that studies acetone, so it's a collaboration between all of us together, because there's engineering that goes into the program and the program is directing the sensor. So, there's the technology inside the device, the sensor and the programming that goes with it, and then there's the actual mold, which we managed to change. But one of the big challenges with the first version is it only has a 20 second warmup. So, in 20 seconds, the device has to warmup, calibrate, and warmup the sensor. It's a big challenge and we really had to push it and just invest a lot in the new devices to make them able to warmup and do all of that in just 20 seconds because it's quite fast. Usually, you'll see at least 60 seconds I think, the closest other device in terms of the warmup and calibration, unless there's something new out there that I don't know about, but it's a very fast calibration.

So, yeah, it takes a lot of different components and just the trial and error. It is just so time consuming because I can't tell you how many devices I would test. I'd be like, “No, it was working until this and then it's not as accurate here.” So, figuring out, well, what's the next step? Do we do a new airway? Do we do a new sensor? Do we do-- it's just a lot of coordination of different things. It's the most fun thing [laughs] I've ever worked on by far. So, it's definitely a joy, even though it's very time consuming.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. It's just going to be so helpful for people. Oh, my goodness.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it's going to be very motivational for people. That's really what I want for someone who's either been doing fasting for a long time or they're just starting out and they're blowing into it and seeing every few hours the numbers are going up. That's super motivational. I think people would be able to do that with the blood, but it's just so expensive and painful to test like three or four times a day. So, this, I think, can be a motivational tool for people where they're like, “Oh, maybe I'll do another hour and see how high my ketones go” or just to motivate people to practice time-restricted eating. Then my favorite part about it is trying different patterns and trying different things. I was telling you when one of my listeners did the ice bath and their ketones doubled the next day, and then I did it too and mine doubled. 

So, there's really interesting dynamics, because sometimes you can have really high blood ketones and then do a workout and then you test again and they've dropped to like zero. But if you test your breath, they don't go down because you are using those ketones, a high uptake of them that you won't see them anymore in your blood, but you'll still see them in the breath. So, it's a really cool tool I think that will also be motivational for people and that's a lot of feedback that I get is it helps keep me on track. That's how I discovered that, “Oh, breakfast and dinner really work well for me, especially when I'm traveling or staying at a resort or something.” And I don't want to go off the rails, but I could see that having a super early breakfast and fasting until dinner is 9, 10 hours. That got me really high ketones, too. Doing a fasted workout really drives my breath ketones up, whereas on the blood you wouldn't see it as much. So, I think it's definitely a great tool for experimenting and trying all kinds of different things, higher protein, lower protein, higher carb, lower carb. Well, you're not really supposed to use carbs with, it [laughs] no because carbs produce a lot of CO2 and also breath gases when people eat carbs and then the gut bacteria ferment the carbs, we produce methane and CO2 and all kinds of breath gases that really mess with the sensor.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, wait that's interesting. Like me, I eat a really high-carb diet at night.

Vanessa Spina: So, you could use it in the morning when you wake up and all throughout the day until right before you have your first meal. But you don't want to do it after you eat because then the numbers will be conflated with the breath gases like the Co2 and the methane. You never want to use it after brushing your teeth or having alcohol. So, if you have wine, you'll see the numbers will go through the roof because the alcohol has a similar molecular shape to acetone, ethanol does. So yeah, there're a few things that you can't do with, but people who do high carb and do time-restricted eating or intermittent fasting can use the tone as long as you're only testing in the fasted state or at least say you have breakfast and lunch. Then you could wait four or five hours and you could test when you go back in the fasted state.

But that's why it's a tool that people can use. But if you are doing carbs above 20 g, then not after you eat. Because then, yeah, I had one person who was blowing like these crazy numbers and I was like, “What are you eating?” And she's like, “I'm eating low carb with all this cabbage.” I looked it up and there's this sugar in cabbage and some vegetables called-

Melanie Avalon: Do you know what it is?

Vanessa Spina: raffinose.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I think I've heard of that, yeah.

Vanessa Spina: And it makes you blow like crazy amounts high, what the tone thinks is acetone. So, it would blow 60, 70. So, some carbs just have certain sugars in them or it's just the fermentation process in the gut that's causing that or it's the CO2, because that's what-- I think there's a lumen. It's mostly measuring the CO2 on the breath. That's because carbs produce the most CO2, whereas fat doesn't.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Yeah, I've seen anecdotally I don't remember who was talking about it. At some point, I saw something about somebody getting pulled over and testing positive on breath analyzers for alcohol when it was really being in ketosis.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, it's totally happened to people. But yeah, if you do a blood alcohol test, you'll be fine. You can prove it. But if you blow into a breath alcohol meter and you're in deep ketosis, it'll set it off for sure.

Melanie Avalon: It's also interesting. I remember it was, I think when Dom D'Agostino was on Peter Attia or something. And that's when I first learned what you mentioned earlier about how the breath acetone-- Does it always or typically comes from burned fat?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it comes directly from your fat. So, your body, when it goes into ketosis, it creates ketones, as you know, in the liver, and it creates beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate, which are interchangeable forms, but one spontaneously will turn into the other depending on if it's needed. Because BHB is more the storage form as you know, acetoacetate is more the ready to use form. So, it can interconvert between those two forms. But as it interconverts and it turns into acetoacetate, about 15% to 20% of that ketone turns into acetone. It's small enough that it'll diffuse through the airways. So, it's really amazing because like I was saying, if you had high ketones and then you did a workout and then your body used those ketones and your muscles used those ketones and your brain used those ketones, then when you test, you're not going to see much left over in the blood, but you're always going to have that proxy and those molecules of acetone are coming from your fat. It's one of my favorite things and one of my favorite quotes of Dom's. I actually have a reel on my Instagram of him just saying that, “Like the carbons--”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, he's like, “the carbons that you're measuring on the breath acetone are coming directly from your fat.” [laughs] And he's like, “You're at your highest rate of fat burning, essentially when you're in ketosis.” So, yeah, I think it's just such a cool thing to be able to breathe your fat and measure it.

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool. I have three thoughts. One's just a really quick tangent. Somebody commented something on my Instagram the other day, and it is haunting me, haunting me, relates to Dom. They said they found me through Dom's podcast, which I'm like, “Did he mention us or me on his show?”

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, maybe he did.

Melanie Avalon:  So, I commented back. I was like, “Oh, when Dom was on my podcast?”, but the person never answered. But I don't think they would mean that because how would they find--? Well, they could have, 

Vanessa Spina: But yeah, he launched a new podcast, so he probably mentioned you or something.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to have to go listen to every episode, [laughs] I need to find it.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you're like, “DMing him, like, “Hey, did you talk about me?” [laughs] Did you mention me?”

Melanie Avalon: Well, I tagged him in the comment when I commented back, but yeah, the comment actually wasn't very supportive. But that's fine, [laughs] turn that ship around.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Now I want to know what it was.

Melanie Avalon: He said, “I was too skinny.”

Vanessa Spina: Oh, and they also found you through Dom's podcast.

Melanie Avalon: They found me through Dom's podcast, but I'm too skinny. [laughs] Thanks for seeking me out and telling me that. So, the things we deal with, I would love to try it because I wonder if I get into ketosis at all. I don't know if I do.

Vanessa Spina: You're one of the first people I'm sending it to. [laughs] I've been waiting to send it to you for so long, and I knew for-- I don't know, a year and a half ago. I was like, “I'm going to send you the second generation when it's out,” because I knew that it would be more practical for the intraday use for you, because I know you were not doing strict keto. If you were, then you could use it anytime, but yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I think that was one of our first conversations way back in the day.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, probably.

Melanie Avalon: You were like, “I want to send it to you”, but I want to wait for the next one. Yeah, this has been a long time coming. This is exciting. I really do wonder though. I think that'll be really interesting to share with listeners because as listeners know, I eat pounds and pounds of fruit every night.

Vanessa Spina: So, what's your morning blood glucose? I'm just curious.

Melanie Avalon: It's usually, I always do get a dawn effect, but typically what I've seen on the CGM when I wake up, depending on when I look at the CGM and the dawn effect and everything, the dawn effect will actually make it go to like 115 or something for a spike and then it'll be 90s and then it goes down all day, 80s. After I do cryo, then it really starts going down in the evening-- So, when I really feel like I'm in my zone fasting, it's usually in the 80s. It used to be in the 70s, but now it's usually in the 80s and then when I eat especially, I noticed a huge difference when I started taking my berberine. Like I said, I was not expecting it to have that profound of a difference. But now when I eat, even with my meal, that will have probably 150 or 200 g of carbs from fruit, maybe it doesn't usually go above 120 and then it comes back down and then it keeps going down. The worst blood sugar regulation is really in the morning period up until afternoon.

Vanessa Spina: That's interesting because you wear CGM, so you can tell that it is the dawn effect. It's not like something else because mine was in the 80s for the longest time and then I just close my eating window. I know it doesn't apply to you because you eat late, but I close my eating window like around 7, 7:30 and now it's in the 70s. Sometimes it's in the 70s, low 70s every single day for months now. That was the main thing.

Melanie Avalon: So, flatline 70s.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's always low 70s. But I don't know if I have a dawn effect, I have to put one of those NutriSense CGMs on. I literally can't wait to postpartum to put it on because that's when it's going to be super helpful for me. Obviously, not the few weeks right after I give birth, but postpartum when I'm ready to focus on my metabolic health again and focus on my fitness and all that. It's going to be such an amazing tool and I think could be such an amazing tool for anyone who wants to focus on their fitness because I'm staying as fit as I can while I'm pregnant. But I think postpartum it could be a really good tool for that when you're sort of getting back on track with things.

Melanie Avalon: I truly think if everybody on the planet did just one round for two weeks, I think it would have a profound effect on people's life choices.

Vanessa Spina: I remember listening to-- you probably heard this episode with Dr. Peter Attia, maybe it was a couple years ago and he was experimenting with one and he was just talking about all the things that he was like, “I can't believe this did it to me and this spiked my blood sugar and this--.” I was like, “Well, duh, that did.” But there're always things that affect people differently. They've done studies where they'll show one person's response to banana is crazy and another person's is like nothing. So, those are things I want to learn because I'm like, “Hey, if I can have of an unripe green banana, [laughs] I would love that if it doesn't really affect my blood sugar.” There are so many things you can learn and then there's always going to be things that surprise you where you're like, “I never would have thought that that was doing it,” but it was some ingredient in your almond milk or something that you just don't know, is there? Yeah, it's such an incredible tool.

Melanie Avalon: I love seeing how I react to alcohol and wine. That's always really interesting. I love seeing how I react to like if I have either in the moment with the alcohol and wine or drinking more earlier on a night I go out, how that affects it later. I did have a night, the other night when I was wearing it, where I did just eat all meat and it was a flatline. I was like, “Oh, that is interesting.” I was like, “Maybe I should do like a round of carnivore and just have flatlines all the time for a little bit,” just for fun.

Vanessa Spina: That's when I was wearing it last time and it was so funny because it was a flatline. I was like, “This is really not giving me useful information right now, because it was always 80 something. It was always 82, 83, 84, 85.” It's amazing, though, because you learn that protein really is broken down over four or 5 hours, and that's one of the reasons it's so amazing for you. It does improve your blood glucose and it does improve your insulin and you can see it in real time. But, yeah, when I did it, I was carnivore and I was like, “Going to get any action here? What's going on?” [laughs] Like I'm always the same number. I remember there were a couple of people, Dr. Jaime Seeman, she was laughing about my post. I said, “It was just like a flatline.” So, yeah, it was not that exciting. But I can only imagine what-- some people's look if they're doing high carb or processed high carb all throughout the day or eating, starting off the day with some cereal and orange juice. [laughs] You could learn so much.

Melanie Avalon: Two things. One, some people I'd be curious, I bet some people on carnivore who are also really-- I could see how some people, either on higher protein carnivore or given their exercise and stress, I'd be curious, they might see spikes. That would be interesting totally.

Vanessa Spina: Well, we got a question on I did an interview with Dr. Don Layman. He's one of the most incredible protein scientists in the world and one of my favorite guests. 

Melanie Avalon: What did he discover? He discovered--

Vanessa Spina: He discovered the leucine threshold. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vanessa Spina: He's really incredible. And a lot of other things. Like, he mentored Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. They came up with the muscle centric fitness concept, but his lab came up with so many different things, the 30 g of protein at a meal concept.

Melanie Avalon: That's him. 

Vanessa Spina: That's all him, so many things came out of his lab. It's super interesting and he believes one of my favorite things is that thermic effect of protein, that extra calorie burn we get from eating protein is because of the ATP being used for muscle-protein synthesis. He's just such an incredible scientist. Yeah. So, one of our listeners wrote in and she said that her husband was getting really crazy blood glucose spikes on carnivore and they're using a CGM to monitor. She's like, “He doesn't eat a single carb. Why is his blood sugar going through the roof?” Dr. Layman was just, “I don't know how to answer this and I honestly don't know.” I was like, “It makes me think of Dr. Ted Naiman.” He always says like, “Fat can also cause diabetes, too much fat.” What if it's the fat? What if he's eating really fatty cuts of meat, just only ribeyes and super high fat that that's what's causing it. Neither of us knew, but I was like, it'd be interesting, right? if it's the fat that could do it because your body is at some kind of energy toxicity and then it's converting all the protein into glucose and then creating this weird after effect that could give you diabetes. I don't know. [chuckles] 

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's what the vegan community is really big on, how the saturated fat literally affects the insulin receptors on our cells negatively.

Vanessa Spina: But it's so weird because we make saturated fat.

Melanie Avalon: We make it. Yes, but I guess when we're inundated in it or if we take in too much that's because I'm prepping right now. I think I said to interview Dr. Kahn, Dr. Joel Kahn-

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's right, that’s right. 

Melanie Avalon: -on Friday. I'm relistening to his interview on Rogan with Chris Kresser. So, he has a chapter or a section in there. So, I was just reading about it and he talks about how the saturated fat literally affects the insulin receptors and can make you insulin resistance, which I can completely see in the context of a carb diet, but in the context of no carbs. I guess what you just said, if your liver is producing more glucose from protein and then the fat is creating that with the receptors, I guess you could get in a state. I don't know I am not-- This is not my forte.

Vanessa Spina: I really want to know from her if-- and I'm going to follow up with her because she asked the question in our Facebook group for my podcast. I really want to follow up and see what if he did a lean protein carnivore? I wonder if it would change things, because people always assume it's the high protein, but it could be the high protein plus the high fat. And it's just so interesting because Dr. Layman was also saying there're so many studies done where the results that they get are just because people are just eating too many calories in general, too much carb, too much fat. Then they're blaming the protein levels, whereas the protein is like helping improve your blood sugar and insulin. It's the other stuff. It's the fuel macros or so.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, like I said, I’m really excited to interview Dr. Kahn because I think I'm such a good example of-- I know I'm N of 1, but I eat super super high protein and animal protein, very high. I mean, higher than most people definitely in my category and then really really high fruit. I don't have these blood sugar issues and my cholesterol is like plummeting. So, it just makes you question things [giggles].

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I'm definitely going to listen to that one.

Melanie Avalon: I am excited. Well, and for listeners, I don't think we even said what a CGM is, but if they're not familiar it's a continuous glucose monitor. It's a sensor that you put onto your arm. It is painless to apply I promise and then it monitors your blood sugar via your interstitial fluid continuously for two weeks. We love NutriSense. You can get $30 off at nutrisense.io/ifpodcast. So nutrisense.co/ifpodcast, the coupon code is IFPODCAST, that will get you $30 off. You do save money if you get a subscription. So, if you think you're going to be doing it more long term, we definitely recommend that route, otherwise do the two weeks. You also get a free month of nutritionist support, so you can actually chat with somebody in the app and they'll help you make sense of all the data. So, it's super cool. How can people learn more about your new Tone device?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, thank you for asking. I actually am doing a launch for it with a very special launch discount. And you can go tonedevice.com and sign up for the list. And you'll receive that launch discount when they are out. And you'll also find out when they're available to order. But yeah, it's going to be in a couple of months, so it's coming soon. I'm very excited. 

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you. I imagine how many molds have you made? They're very pricey, aren't they?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, and it's so funny because I literally have them. I'm in my office right now and there're Tone devices everywhere in our house. Almost every drawer you open, there's a Tone device. It's like Easter. It's like Easter eggs. [laughs] I'm like, “How is there one in this sock drawer? There's one in here, there's one in Luca's drawer. They just pop out everywhere and I don't know what to do with them. I label them which version they are and stuff. I almost just want to keep them all, put them in a glass case or something. [laughs] They are coming out of our ears here. There's just so many. But yeah, it's worth it because I think the new version is going to be just so cool. And that's the most fun part for me. The last note I want to say on this is, it's the most fun part for me is when people actually get them and they're using them and they're tagging me in their stories and they're like, “Look at my ketones today,” and I did a fasted workout and check this out. 

And as a community, I get to just interact so much with everyone. And it's the part I'm the most excited about. I know I'm sure you feel that way too when you get feedback from someone who's saying, “The berberine is like a game changer or whatever, it just makes your whole month.” It just makes you so happy. You're like, “This is why I enjoy doing this stuff.” It affects people in ways that make them happy. And when they love the stuff that you create, it just makes you feel like all warm and fuzzy inside. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: It's so fulfilling. I do the same thing with the supplement bottles. I had a moment the other day because I've embraced this new mantra and I say it in my head every night, throw away something every day. So, throw away every day. I'm trying to very slowly just cleanse my physical space, get rid of stuff. The thing I threw away the other day was I had the first glass bottle from the supplement line, but it wasn't even labeled. It's literally just a glass bottle. And I was like, “This has just got to go. I do not need this. I don't need to keep this,” but I want to keep all the bottles and everything.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it's special to keep it. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I threw it away, but [laughs] I have the ones with the labels still.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, got to put them in a glass case.

Melanie Avalon: It was when Scott sent me just a glass bottle that we're going to use for the glass bottles, it was that glass bottle. But I was like, “I don't actually need this on my shelf.”

Vanessa Spina: Right? Yeah, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I'm just going to throw one really quick link since we're talking about all the things. I am launching my EMF blocking product line. So, more information on that. We're starting with air tubes. Friends, please don't wear Bluetooth AirPods. I just shudder, I shudder, I shudder. But in any case, you can get more information for the launch special at melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist. So melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist, get on that for sure. Shall we answer some listener questions? 

Vanessa Spina: I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so I'm going to read two questions because they sort of go together and these are both from Facebook. So, the first one is from Nikki. She says, “I like to do a couple 24-hour fasts per week. I usually break these fasts around dinner. The goal of the fasting is fat loss, but I do still want to preserve lean muscle. On the other days, I typically get around 115 to 130 g of protein. Should I make sure I get 100 plus grams of protein on my two fasting days even though I have an eating window of two to three hours on those days? It's difficult to get that much in a short window. And I'm not sure how beneficial it is in one sitting. Could or should I make up for it by increasing my protein intake on the other days.” Then related to that is from Nancy and she said, “How can I possibly get 120 g of protein daily when I typically fast 20:4?” So, she's doing something sort of similar. They're both struggling to get all the protein. What are your thoughts, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I love both these questions. For me, I need to answer them separately because it's two different things, but they're kind of fun, especially to Nancy's creative ways to get the protein in, I'm all about that. So, in terms of Nikki's question, it's such a great question. So, the goal is fat loss, but wanting to make sure you preserve your lean muscle, which is key for your metabolism and maintaining as much lean body mass as possible for your body recomp. I wouldn't be concerned about only getting-- you're saying on the other days that you're getting 115 to 130 g. I wouldn't be too concerned with getting over 100 g of protein on your two fasting days. I don't think it's that necessary. I think you just focus on getting it on your eating days to get that 115 to 130. It's definitely like that 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight, I think is great when you're doing body recomposition. But if you are also doing fat loss and you're practicing fasting, that's how you're also ramping up the fat loss is through that caloric control. So, I don't think that you need as much. If you're fasting, you're probably getting into some light ketosis. Ketones have a muscle-sparing effect, so I wouldn't worry about having to hit 100 g of protein each day. That might just make you uncomfortable trying to do it with less meals. So, that's my opinion on the first one. As far as Nancy's, “How can I possibly get 120 g of protein daily when you are fasting 20:4.” So, you're doing one meal a day. 

So, I have two different diverging thoughts on this. The first is, do you necessarily need to get 120 g of protein? I would question that first, and I don't have all the information on why you're consuming that much and what your goals are. But say you're doing 120 g of protein because you're targeting around 1 g of protein per pound of body weight or ideal body weight, and you want to get the optimal amount of protein in to preserve your lean muscle mass while doing body recomposition. I would say target as much protein as possible till you're getting those satiety effects. You need at least 30 g of protein per meal. I don't know if you are able to, but if you're able to have two meals in that 4-hour eating window, if you're having, say, either a dinner and then waiting a couple of hours and having a protein shake, you can definitely fit in a couple of meals, and you can definitely get at least 30 g of protein at each of those meals, which will mean you'll get at least 3 g of leucine, as long as you're doing high quality protein. 

If you're doing plant-based protein, you probably need a little bit more 35 g as a target but if you're getting at least 3 g of leucine at two meals in your eating window, then you're going to be more than fine in terms of preserving your lean mass and your muscle. I know that having a 4-hour eating window doesn't give you that many meal opportunities, but I would definitely try to break it up in that 4 hours so you have at least two opportunities where you are triggering muscle protein synthesis as opposed to just one meal where you're having like 100 to 120 g of protein. Now the other thing is, I myself tend to do a similar eating window. I change it up. Sometimes, I'm doing breakfast early early in the day. I was just doing that for the past week. Then I'll have a dinner about nine to 10 hours later.

So, I go back in the fasted state. But I have come up with so many different creative ways to get in as much protein as possible. So, I have turned different aspects of the meal into protein opportunities. So, the main proteins that I have at my meal, whether that's chicken or beef or fish. But then, I use nonfat yogurt to make a lot of sauces. So, there're so many amazing sauces you can make with yogurt. You can make tzatziki if you're doing kebabs or if you're doing a yogurt marinade. I make salad dressings with it that I'll have with my protein and with some salad. So, like honey mustard is super easy to make with some yogurt in there. Sometimes, I'll make like a tuna salad and I'll use high protein yogurt, which is like lower fat yogurt instead of mayo. And I also do a couple of other things. I make protein bread. So, I make this three to four times a week and I make a couple of loaves of protein bread. It's a bread, you may have heard of.

Melanie Avalon: It is a cloud bread?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, so it's often called cloud bread. The version that I make is Maria Emmerich's recipe and its liquid egg whites and powdered egg whites blended together in a stand mixer and then you put it in the oven for about 30 to 40 minutes and it's delicious. It's the protein wonder bread. I use it in so many different meals. I make sandwiches with it. Sometimes, I'll do like a tortilla soup or like tomato soup and I'll use the bread to dip in it. I'll make protein churros with it with sweetened yogurt. There're just so many amazing things that you can do with it. 

Of course, toast with eggs and all that or just for breakfast, I'll have the protein bread and then cream cheese with lox, tomatoes, and capers. It's a lox bagel. There're just so many things that you can do with it and so that's another way that you're getting more protein in. Then, there's the sweet dessert options. You can make a protein shake using-- I like to use whey protein or egg protein and I usually do that either a couple of hours after my dinner or sometimes it's like closer to dinner if I haven't had as much protein with the dinner. But I do almond milk, frozen berries, ice, and whey protein and blend it up and tastes absolutely amazing. So, I'm hitting the protein at every step of the way and every aspect of the meal has some protein in it.

And sometimes, I think at first when you're starting to prioritize protein more, it seems overwhelming. Like, “How can I get this many grams of protein in one day?” But when you start using these different yogurts, different protein bread, different things to incorporate into the meal, it seamlessly becomes a lifestyle over time. Then you're like, “Gosh, my meals are just so incredibly satiating, so satisfying.” The biggest issue I have is I get so full, it's hard for me to sometimes have another meal because every component of my meal is protein related. So, the first part of the answer was like, do you necessarily need to get 120 g? But if you want to, there're a lot of creative ways and even not 120 g, hitting around 100, you can easily do it if you're getting a bit creative. What do you think, Melanie? 

Melanie Avalon: That was so helpful. Thank you so much. That was so impressive. That was like, so many great suggestions because I eat the same thing every single night, so I'm not much help. So, [laughs] it's really helpful to hear all of these options. Thank you. I'm thanking you from the listeners. Thank you. Some of the thoughts I had, so really interesting. I was really really curious what you're going to say about the 100 g of protein, especially because I'm reading Dr. Gabrielle Lyon's book right now and she's very adamant about 100 g every day. I'm like, “Oh, this seems very important.” So, you diverge a little bit in your thinking on that.

Vanessa Spina: Well, because if you're not doing time-restricted eating, you're not getting into any light ketosis. But I know our listeners are mostly practicing intermittent fasting or fasting. As Nikki was saying, “She's doing fasting.” So, because she's doing fasting of 24 hours twice a week, she's definitely getting into ketosis. So, she doesn't have to worry about getting that same amount of protein on those days because the ketones are providing that muscle protective aspect. But if she wasn't fasting and you are trying to optimize muscle growth, muscle gains, you want to get as many opportunities in the day to trigger muscle protein synthesis. And for most people, that's three meals a day, 30 g at each meal. I know that's what Gabrielle recommends and that's like 90 g to 100 g of protein a day. And that's a great target I think for the average person who tends to eat three square meals, but for people who do fasting, it's a little bit different. Especially with two 24 hours fasts, you're definitely getting into ketosis and those ketones will help protect your muscle.

Melanie Avalon: I can't wait to talk to her about it when I interview her, because she didn't-- I don't think because I'm almost done with the book and I don't think she has said anywhere I could be wrong. I don't think she said anywhere that fasting would indicate that maybe you could have less protein. Interestingly, she does say there are studies on exercise and maybe creating a muscle preserving effect. So, it's what you just said, but it's on the exercise front.

Vanessa Spina:  Right, right. Yeah, because you're sending a signal with resistance training to preserve.

Melanie Avalon:  Because I read that and I was like, “Oh, that's kind of like with fasting,” where we're upregulating human growth hormone and we're like creating this state where the muscles are basically primed. That's what she said. It was something about how-- I'd have to find the exact quote, but it was something about how when the muscles are really primed from exercise, then they can soak up those amino acids really well. I'm using very casual terminology, but basically you might not need quite as much because it's so efficient at grabbing what's there. And I feel that's a similar situation that's created from fasting. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. For people who are over the age of 40 and really concerned about keeping as much of that lean mass as possible, I definitely recommend doing that kind of exercise-- resistance training when you're fasting, because you want to send that signal, we need these muscles, we need to hold on to them and not catabolize them. And then when you break your fast, of course, make sure that meal has all the protein in it. But I think that we are really integrating a lot of these concepts. Well, I can see from your community, this community, my community, and others, that people are really getting this information, putting it into practice, noticing huge amelioration or difference in their body composition. It's relatively recent that we've really started talking about protein, really focusing in on it. Unless you've been in the bodybuilding world for years, then you probably know some of these concepts a little bit more. 

But I really feel like this information has kind of been in that space, like the physique competitors, the bodybuilders or the science labs, and now it's reaching so many people. Thanks to advocates like Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. I just love getting questions like this because it's like, yes, we know how much protein to get, and we know how important it is, and we just want to know the best way to do it.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I love it so much. My suggestion that I'll add to your-- because you gave so many incredible suggestions about what to add. So, the thing I'll give as a piece of advice is maybe focusing on what not to have. What I mean by that is really leading with protein rather than having a super high fat, high protein meal because that might really fill you up. So, for me, when I eat, and again, I eat very similarly, it's always just really really high amounts of animal protein, like fish, chicken, steak, and I eat a lot of cucumbers and fruit. So, I'm not prescribing that because I know it's super weird and it's like what I love. I basically lead with protein. So, my hunger is being initially addressed with protein rather than with fat per se. Even with the carbs, I eat those as like my dessert. So maybe not letting focusing on the protein and not adding a lot that might prematurely increase your satiety. That would be my suggestion. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. That's great. I think that's what Ori Hofmekler always says to you right. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, we have to try to get him back on this show. We should have him and Dom and all the people.

Vanessa Spina: Both of those would be so much [unintelligible 00:53:12]. But Ori would be like a dream.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I'm going to reach out to Ori. I'm writing that down right now. Ori, O-R-I and I have the thing I can use as the moment. Remember how I said his nephew is my sister's--

Vanessa Spina: Totally. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: And what about protein powders? So, when people have your upcoming protein powder coming out, how much protein will that add for them? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, what's amazing about it? Scott and I have talked a little bit about the formulation, but because we've optimized it based on the science of leucine and muscle protein synthesis, you only need one scoop, which is about 15 g of protein. But because we've added in the leucine, you'll still trigger muscle protein synthesis, but without having to take these giant scoops of protein, which, as you were just saying, with regards to fullness, can make people feel super full or bloated, if it's not a high-quality protein, if it's whey protein concentrate or different blends, whey protein isolate, moderate amount. I only take one small scoop and it's great because I can have that an hour or two after dinner and I'm still not going to bed, feeling super full. I would never even think of doing that if I was using a traditional protein powder where you have to have these mega scoops just be digesting that for so long. I don't think it would be comfortable to go to bed with a full stomach like that.

Melanie Avalon: I love going to bed with a full stomach.

Vanessa Spina: I mean, like overly full when you're just like--

Melanie Avalon: No, true.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: How can people get on the list so they don't miss your launch special for that?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, the other other Tone, toneprotein.com. You can sign up to get that launch discount and be the first to know when it's out. It's going to be the biggest discount ever offered on Tone Protein, and it'll be out in a couple of months, so you can stay tuned on it and just sign up with your name and email @toneprotein.com. But thank you for asking me.

Melanie Avalon: No, of course. That just made me think really quick. Speaking of the naming thing, because I have AvalonX supplements and with my EMF line, I was like, “Do I use the same name? What do I do?” It's like a whole thing, like a big decision. I'm keeping it. I basically have AvalonX supplements and then my AvalonX. I have AvalonX powered by MD Logic for the supplements and AvalonX powered by SYB for my EMF line. But it was a big moment decision. Did you have that moment decision of calling it the same thing?

Vanessa Spina: I felt like it just made sense from the beginning because Tone, I created it because ketones and wanting to get toned. And for me, the Tone Lux just made sense because it's like somehow related to the mitochondria. But Tone Protein was, like, I always wanted to call it that because you're getting toned and it all connects back to that. But I think it's great to have one consistent brand across different things. So, I'm glad you're keeping AvalonX. I think it's such a great name. 

Melanie Avalon: Love it. Awesome. Well, this has been so fun. Great palindrome episode 333. For listeners If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there or you can ask in my Facebook group IF Biohackers Intermittent Fasting plus Real Foods plus Life and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. So yeah, this has been super fun. Anything from you before we go?

Vanessa Spina: I had so much fun and I'm super excited to record the next one with you.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I will talk to you next week. 

Vanessa Spina: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Vanessa Spina: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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