Welcome to Episode 353 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
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TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 353 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
This is episode number 353 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi everyone. Vanessa, I realized we can talk about two fasting guests. We both interviewed a fasting guest since talking to each other.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, should we start with? Yeah, I've been wanting to know how yours went with Valter Longo.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so I interviewed Valter Longo and you interviewed... Wait, how do you say his first name?
Vanessa Spina:
Dr. Satchin Panda.
Melanie Avalon:
So it's Satchin, like Satchin. Yeah. Okay. I don't know why I cannot get his name ingrained in my head. So, Valter Longo will be on this show. So listeners will, actually, I think they will have already heard it.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So he was last episode. Oh my goodness. So he can debrief.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes.
Melanie Avalon:
But if you haven't heard the episode. I did want to clarify for listeners one little thing about the episode. So this is actually really good timing because I talked with him about, we talked about breakfast and he is very anti -skipping breakfast.
Melanie Avalon:
So he was pointing out a lot of studies about breakfast linked to mortality. Well, what are your thoughts on this?
Vanessa Spina:
So there was a study recently that came out, and I think I was texting you that the interview that I did with Gin, former co -host of yours, on my podcast, she brought it up and she was really breaking it down really well and sort of brought up all the different points.
Vanessa Spina:
So I know we also talked a lot about how there's been so many clickbait headlines in the last year about intermittent fasting, but she explained a lot of the reasons why it may appear that skipping breakfast could lead to increased mortality.
Vanessa Spina:
And she said it went crazy through her community, her intermittent fasting community that she has online. And I think that she's probably right. Basically, I think she was mostly saying that the data was skewed with people who tended to have a lot of other bad habits that were not supportive of a healthy lifestyle.
Vanessa Spina:
And I personally have started having my first meal again. I do two meals a day and I've made that switch and I consider that to be this form of circadian fasting. But I still sometimes will not have breakfast if I'm not hungry yet in the morning, but I do think that it can offer some advantages and it just depends on what you're after.
Vanessa Spina:
And I also think when you're younger, you can get away with more fasting, especially you can get away with more like OMAD style. But I do think that when you get older, that it's important if you want to protect your lean body mass, do you have more opportunities in the day to trigger muscle protein synthesis?
Vanessa Spina:
So I know we have like a little bit different personal approaches with that, but I like that we have different, you know, approaches. And I also never feel like one pattern is set in stone. So it's kind of a long answer.
Vanessa Spina:
But that's interesting that he's very against that because Mark Madsen and, you know, even like Satchin Panda, they have no real issue with that.
Melanie Avalon:
Wow, okay, that was ridiculously informative. Thank you. When did that study come out? The one that Gin talked about?
Vanessa Spina:
I don't know, but I've just been hearing about it like in the last few months. And I tend to not pay too much attention to that kind of stuff when it comes up, because it's often, I know what kind of study it usually is.
Vanessa Spina:
And I don't get overly excited about a new study that has something negative to say about intermittent fasting. And I know that I know my science behind my approach and that kind of thing. I wish I could recall the title of it and recall everything that Jin said about it because she broke it down really well when we were talking about it, but I haven't read it.
Vanessa Spina:
So I can't really speak to it that much.
Melanie Avalon:
in a few episodes, we could read it and we could talk about it because I would love to talk about it having read it. So I'll actually put it in there at prep so that we can prep for it. That'd be fun.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, because my just initial thoughts are kind of things that you talked about which is well epidemiological data and like the healthy user bias. So basically people that tend to skip, so people who tend to eat breakfast maybe following other healthy lifestyle habits and we've been told for so long that like that you shouldn't skip breakfast.
Melanie Avalon:
So so people who skip breakfast might be more likely to like not engaging in other lifestyle behaviors that support a healthy diet, which is what I just said.
Vanessa Spina:
That's exactly what Jin said. She said it was healthy user bias and it was exactly what you just said.
Melanie Avalon:
There's that. And it was funny though. So in the episode, and by the way, I really, really enjoyed the episode. Oh, and Vanessa knows I'm so bummed listeners. I'm so bummed because I find doing video very energetically draining.
Melanie Avalon:
But occasionally I do it if I want to capture some video if it's a very important guest like Valter Longo. So I got already I was doing a video interview and I thought I was recording it. And I was not I was just recording the audio and it was a tragedy, but that's okay.
Melanie Avalon:
It happened. And as Vanessa said, at least I got the audio. So that's a good reframe. But something else he said, and I was telling you this offline Vanessa, but oh yeah, about the breakfast studies.
Melanie Avalon:
I said that a lot of them are funded by the breakfast food industry, which I have seen. Because when I was writing for my, my book, What When Wine, I was looking up breakfast studies. And I so many times I would go to the bottom and it was like funded by Quaker Oats or funded by, you know, all of these breakfast cereal companies, Kellogg's.
Melanie Avalon:
But he said they did a meta analysis and they found out over, I guess overwhelmingly wasn't the case. I don't know. So that was the only part of the conversation that I wanted to clarify because I, I didn't push him as much as I think I could have.
Melanie Avalon:
I did like a little bit, but I also didn't want to, you know, be crazy.
Vanessa Spina:
Was it actually his study? Maybe it was his study.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I'm not sure he made it sound like it was his study. I'll have to go look later. He has a lot of studies though, but I had one other thought about it. I just know that when I, and again, I would love to read that study that Gin was referring to and possibly him.
Melanie Avalon:
I also think there's an issue, the timing of what we qualify as breakfast, because I think there's this idea that breakfast is like, super early, but I think you can have like depending on your circadian rhythm.
Melanie Avalon:
How do I say this?
Vanessa Spina:
I mean, it's when you break your fast. Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
So what even is breakfast? If people's circadian rhythms are different, okay, for example, me. I don't eat breakfast, but if I were to eat breakfast in my circadian rhythm, it would easily be lunch to other people.
Melanie Avalon:
What does that mean then? What do you extrapolate from that data? I think it's complicated. I did a long post on this and I can put a link to it notes, but when I went and like sat down, it wasn't epidemiological data.
Melanie Avalon:
It was controlled clinical data looking at the release of hormones based on eating timing. And it really didn't look like you should be eating super early based on the hormonal profile that was released.
Melanie Avalon:
Like it seemed like, and this was just from the studies I was reading, but the hormones most in line with what when you would actually be eating or a little bit later. Cause like when you first wake up, it's like cortisol.
Melanie Avalon:
It's like anti -hunger hormones, if that makes sense.
Vanessa Spina:
Well, I can tell you what Dr. Satchin Panda says.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yes, yes, that's segue because Vanessa interviewed Dr.
Vanessa Spina:
Linda. I love his name. It was probably the interview that I most wanted to have with any guest. And I was telling you, it took me like a year because he's so busy. And he's one of those scientists that is in the lab a lot.
Vanessa Spina:
And I finally got him booked and I was super excited. And I just am such a big fan of his work. His book is on my, in front of me, I stared it all the time, the circadian code. It's so good. So he's done most of the research on time restricted feeding that really, you know, sort of, I guess put intermittent fasting on the map similar to Dr.
Vanessa Spina:
Mark Madsen. But he also discovered a couple other things like melanopsin, which is this protein in our eye, some of it's in our skin that detects your circadian rhythm. So he's done some really fascinating research, but he was kind of one of the first ones to really look at meal timing.
Vanessa Spina:
And he says, you know, like even healthy food, eating at the wrong time is junk food, which I love. But so he says that your day starts the night before you should get in bed and be in bed for at least eight hours.
Vanessa Spina:
So you get around seven hours minimum of sleep. And you should delay breakfast by one to two hours. And he said, it's because when you first wake up, you still have a lot of melatonin going and that it's better to wait one to two hours based on the rhythms of melatonin cortisol production.
Vanessa Spina:
Then Dr. Jack Cruz, you know, he really popularized this leptin reset. And he says you should eat within an hour of waking and that it's because you need to sync up with your circadian rhythm. So you know, there's people have different beliefs on on it.
Vanessa Spina:
My favorite, you know, protein scientist, Dr. Don Lehmann says, doesn't matter when you have that first meal, your breakfast is your breakfast. It's when you break your fast, you can have it at seven, 10, at 12, you know, whatever works for you.
Vanessa Spina:
But it's whenever you you break your fast, essentially. So it's just it's funny that we always associate it with eating within like an hour to a waking and, you know, with certain like, we really associate it with the morning time.
Vanessa Spina:
But the interview with him was amazing. It was really enjoyable to get to to finally ask him some questions that I wanted to ask him for a long time. So yeah, it was great that we both got to interview such amazing, fasting scientists who have contributed so much to our knowledge of, you know, the power of fasting.
Melanie Avalon:
That is so exciting. Were you nervous?
Vanessa Spina:
A little bit. They had asked for the questions before, which I usually don't send. I stopped sending questions a year ago because I preferred to have a more spontaneous reaction to my questions. And then I don't want them to think that they're going to go in that order either.
Vanessa Spina:
Sometimes you just, you know, I like to have more conversational episodes or interviews. So it's like we can flow in this direction, then we can come back and then this sparks something else and we'll see.
Vanessa Spina:
So I stopped sending questions, but they asked for them. So I sent them before. It was interesting because he said when we got on that all the questions were good, but he didn't want to answer one of them.
Vanessa Spina:
And it was about a question that I said, well, what do you make of all the media that talk about how caloric restriction and time restricted eating are essentially the same thing and all the benefits of time restricted eating are coming from caloric restriction.
Vanessa Spina:
And he says that he doesn't like to address that because it just kind of like gives power to the media that, you know, gives them maybe a sense of like recognition or something when really like they don't fully understand the mechanism.
Vanessa Spina:
So I thought that was that that makes sense. And that's my approach with a lot of this stuff too. Like you have to realize that a lot of media, they want you to click on their articles. So they often will sensationalize things, you know, and yeah, we granted we know that, but it's a good reminder, you know, to know that they sensationalize things to get us to get our attention to hook our attention so that we click on their links, go read their articles, spend time on their website.
Vanessa Spina:
So they're incentivized to make things sound a certain way or to make take certain studies and make very like enticing or controversial headlines. And sometimes that's all people see is the headlines.
Vanessa Spina:
And so they don't, you know, always get the full, the full picture. So yeah, I thought that was interesting, but I wasn't too, too nervous, but it was probably the interview that I was the most like anticipating, you know, getting ready for spending a lot of time preparing for what about you?
Vanessa Spina:
I know you've interviewed him before, so wait.
Melanie Avalon:
quick question about the prepping. It's funny. So I have a similar approach in that I make my prep documents and I have tons of questions and then I send those to my assistant. She like cleans it up and then she's I have like a whole system.
Melanie Avalon:
Then she sends me back because the okay, I send her because the way my prep documents are set up. I have like tons of questions with notes under each question organized into sections. So I sent her that and then she sends me back just the questions without my notes.
Melanie Avalon:
And then I pick out the questions that I want to send to them. So I like save for myself the like good questions. So then they don't know not good questions, but the ones that I want to be like very spontaneous and that they don't it's not because I want to like surprise them or trip them up.
Melanie Avalon:
It's just because like you said, I like having an element of spontaneity. And so I basically send them a document with like very basic questions that they probably would have anticipated I would have asked anyways, but I keep for myself all the like special questions.
Melanie Avalon:
So it's like a blend of what you do.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's funny how we have our own styles. And I have to say, when I do send the questions, people always really appreciate it. So it's nice that you do that. I just don't anymore. There's just a lot of things that I don't anymore.
Vanessa Spina:
So people sometimes, like I was interviewing Dr. Dom Bagostino yesterday. And he's like, I don't think you sent me the questions this time. And I was like, nope.
Melanie Avalon:
That's so fun.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, but it's yeah, I find it more fun because it's like I can just Ask you whatever I want and I feel like people get in this state of like They're prepared to answer anything too. So you can like I don't know.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. Anyway, it's all It's it's fun to talk about like our different approaches to things
Melanie Avalon:
I know, I wonder if anybody else finds it interesting. I find it so, I could talk about this for like an hour. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, there's a lot of psychology that goes into it because you and I both host and produce our shows. You know, we don't, like you listen to a lot of podcasts, like they have all these producers and you know, there's a media company running everything for them and they book guests for them and they send them the questions even sometimes.
Vanessa Spina:
So we're our own producers as well. So there's a lot of that that goes into it, like producing.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I mean, I do have like an amazing assistant for both shows that help so much. But yeah, we're like kind of spearheading. Like I think we're just very, you know, hands on involved in the production.
Melanie Avalon:
I just had an epiphany though. I think a reason I send the questions ahead of time, this may be, this may be the main reason I do it. Do you know what it is? No. I think I do it because I want them to take me seriously going into the interview because I think being a like young blonde stereotype, I feel like if I send them questions that show I've read their work and if they're like nuanced questions, then they'll be like, I need to take this interview more seriously.
Melanie Avalon:
I'm not saying that they wouldn't take me seriously, but it kind of lets me like paint a picture of my mind before they've talked to me, if that makes sense. Yeah, it totally makes sense. I like have seared in my head because David Sinclair was one of the first people I emailed on the biohacking show.
Melanie Avalon:
And I remember I sent him over the questions and he emailed back and he said, wow, that's a deep dive. And I like have that email like imprinted in my memory. That's awesome. So, okay, wait, but I had one other one other thought.
Melanie Avalon:
What did you ask me right before then? Oh, you asked me how it felt integrating Valter. So that has also been a surreal trajectory. And that's also interesting to see how far you've come because I've actually interviewed him three times.
Melanie Avalon:
So it's crazy to think. I mean, I'm still like an on it's amazing, but it's just really interesting to think back to like the first time I emailed him, which was for it was on this show. And it was forever ago.
Melanie Avalon:
It was when it was when Gin was still on the show. And I was just like so nervous. And the second time was on the biohacking show. I'm not sure if I was that nervous. And this time I was like, let's do this.
Melanie Avalon:
Like I'm good. And I'm not, but I'm not saying that to say that I get, I don't ever want to lose my sense of awe and gratitude and everything. It's just really interesting to see your progression. I think like, as you become more comfortable with podcasting, because it's been so long, although Vanessa, I'm never done in person.
Melanie Avalon:
So I'm really scared about Dave Asprey. What am I going to do without my notes? Or I guess I'm going to have my notes. Yeah. Why wouldn't you have them? I'm so used to like looking at my, I don't know.
Melanie Avalon:
It's like different when you're in person. Yes. You have to be like more engaging with the person. Yes. And there's going to be like a photographer there. And it's going to be so stressful.
Vanessa Spina:
No, you're gonna love it. It's gonna bring out the best in you. Okay It's a challenge is you right like you know, they they bring out the best in you so I might drink some wine before Yeah, why not? Tell anybody
Melanie Avalon:
What when wine? I know. Obviously, taking shots of wine in the car.
Vanessa Spina:
I've never taken alcohol when I'm nervous. Like I, oh really? I've never tried that like for speaking or anything, but I usually will fast. I usually will fast and that provides, I think it's probably because of the GABA.
Vanessa Spina:
Like if you get into ketosis, you know, it provides some GABA for you. It makes you more GABA dominant. So I usually fast and it gives me more of like a sense of, you know, control and preparedness and like presentness being present.
Vanessa Spina:
That always works for me when I'm speaking or something, but sometimes it can get to be like a little bit too anxiety producing, but yeah, you gotta just ride the wave.
Melanie Avalon:
That's so interesting.
Vanessa Spina:
I always, always, always, always find that it comes down to how prepared I am. And I know you're going to be super prepared. You probably won't even need notes.
Melanie Avalon:
Well, so thought one, I'm always fasted. I don't, if I was in the fed state, I'd be a wreck. I would be like lethargic and fasting is great for having your mind like on point. That's so interesting that you've never taken, so you've never drank to, you said to help with nerves.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, no.
Melanie Avalon:
I haven't. I have. Well, one of the episodes, cause we're doing two, and one of them is going to be listener Q and A. So I'll have to have notes cause that won't be memorized. I think what I'm gonna do though, I asked in the group for spicy questions, cause he does so many interviews.
Melanie Avalon:
So I want to make it very unique. And I got a lot of good spicy questions from listeners. So, do you like that idea? Like a spicy question episode? For sure. Awesome. And the thing I'll do like a fasting and coffee like themed episode.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, and I did one other, Valter Longo comment. This was so funny. This interview came about because he didn't reach out. I didn't reach out, but ProLon reached out. And I responded. So ProLon is the fasting mimicking diet, which I forgot.
Melanie Avalon:
Have you ever tried it?
Vanessa Spina:
it? Nope, and I never will.
Melanie Avalon:
Sorry. Sorry. Not sorry. Tell us how you really feel. I have tried it. I think I tried it though in a time in my life when it wasn't really the time to try it. I would be open to trying it again. And a lot of listeners have tried it and a lot of listeners have provided feedback.
Melanie Avalon:
So I do think it's really valuable for a lot of people. I did ask him if it could be done in a one meal a day situation. Like could you eat all the, all the ProLon in one meal? Because if I were to do it, I think that's how I would have to do it.
Melanie Avalon:
He said you could. He said he thought that would be hard. I was like, that won't be hard.
Vanessa Spina:
That's a good idea of how you could integrate it, you know, into your, your lifestyle. I think, you know, for some people, it might be helpful. I, I just, it would not be for me. I find that I have a pretty strong fasting muscle.
Vanessa Spina:
So I would just fast. Like I just wouldn't, I don't, I don't understand the point of eating something, but I know that it's just like low protein, but I did that for so many years as a vegetarian and it never did anything really great for me.
Melanie Avalon:
But well, it's low protein and it's severely calorie restricted.
Vanessa Spina:
Then you're just on a low calorie diet.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, but what's interesting though is I guess because of how they specifically formulated it and in their clinical data. And again, I realized I was talking to the man who like created this, but he was very convincing with their clinical data.
Melanie Avalon:
But basically the physiological state, and so for listeners, I guess we haven't really defined what this is. So this is the fasting mimicking diet. Valter Longo developed it. It is a five day diet plan where the purpose of it, and he talks about this in his book, but basically, and his book is called the longevity diet, which isn't just about fasting mimicking diet.
Melanie Avalon:
It's about the fasting mimicking diet and then his overall longevity diet that he prescribes for like life. It creates the physiological blood biomarkers of fasting pretty like equivocably. So like ketone wise, insulin wise, IGF wise.
Melanie Avalon:
So basically it's creating the markers of the fasting state, but you're still eating. And so ProLon is these, it's like soup packets and some bars and this like vitamin drink thing and algae pills. Sounds miserable.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Oh, actually I should look and see if they are like spirulina pills that come with it. It comes with some sort of like algae pills. Ah, they probably are. If people want to watch about it, there was a documentary on Netflix.
Melanie Avalon:
Do you remember this one Vanessa? It's when I was hosting with Gin, I think it was like five different episodes about help things. I was excited because I knew literally like half a guest because one episode was the, it was Gwyneth Paltrow's.
Melanie Avalon:
That's what it was. Gwyneth Paltrow's Goop Lab show. Did you watch that on Netflix? I didn't. She has a cold episode with Wim Hof. She has a fasting episode. So in the fasting episode she interviews Dr. Alan Goldhammer who I've had on my show and she does the fasting mimicking diet and she has Valter on the show. If listeners want to kind of get a feel for it. So the studies are really, really interesting on the health effects and like the effects on the immune system and especially like help for cancer.
Melanie Avalon:
So I'm really interested by it. I just haven't personally successfully done it. But if listeners would like to try it and report back would love to hear your experiences and you can get 10% off. The link for that is prolonlife.com.
Melanie Avalon:
So P -R -O -L -O -N -L -I -F -E .com. The coupon code IFPODCAST will get you 10% off. And it is a, I don't know if it's, would it be a nonprofit if all of the money, I guess it's not a nonprofit, but all of the money goes back into fasting research.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, but that's the funny thing is I, so basically what went down was ProLon reached out about actually sponsoring the show. And I was like, well, I don't think it's the best fit for sponsoring, but I was like, I'm happy to have Valter on the show to talk about everything.
Melanie Avalon:
So they were like, yeah, great. So he came on, it was great, but he won't actually like mention the word ProLon. Isn't that funny? Why? I don't know. So like, like literally like, I don't know what it was, but at one point, like what I had said was like prepping him to say ProLon and he wouldn't say it.
Melanie Avalon:
He was like, these programs out there, blah, blah, blah, blah. I can't really name them. I was like, oh.
Vanessa Spina:
Okay.
Melanie Avalon:
need to know why. And then like later in the show, I was like, wait, am I allowed to say ProLon? So like later in the show, I was like, I didn't even say it. I mean, I said, I said it earlier, but so later I was like, yeah, and you know, these programs out there for five days.
Melanie Avalon:
So I stopped like, stop saying the word as well. That's bizarre. I wonder why I think it's because he doesn't want to be, I'm assuming. I don't know. I think it's because he doesn't want to be associated with like selling ProLon.
Melanie Avalon:
But it's his creation, right? I know. I want to go back and read the transcript when we get it back from the editors about what he said specifically, because it was he said something about it that was confusing to me.
Melanie Avalon:
That's curious. The fun time. It's so crazy that we get to do these amazing interviews. And I'm so happy. I'll have to, when does your episode come out with Dr. Panda?
Vanessa Spina:
It should be, actually it's coming out next Monday, which will be November 14th, so it should already be out.
Melanie Avalon:
Awesome, I can't wait to listen to it.
Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. I can't wait to listen to the Valter one. Thank you.
Melanie Avalon:
I got excited because I could see he was at USC and I went to USC and I could like recognize the brick walls because they use a lot of the same brick. That's a nice feeling. Made me happy. Nostalgic.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. I know. Last podcast question I swear. Seems like you turn around your episodes pretty fast. Do you do that typically turn them around fast? Yes.
Vanessa Spina:
I do and it just depends though. So I kind of do a lot of things more instinctually. So I kind of like feel out when I think a certain guest, like the timing of it will be good. It's really not like a technical way of doing it, but I just know.
Vanessa Spina:
I'm like, it's time for this one. And then it's like, it's time for this. Like I just know, I just know what it's like. I have this feeling of when a certain episode should go out. So like right now I've got like about 30 episodes, like pre-recorded.
Vanessa Spina:
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, 30 because I'm going to be taking a break when the baby comes. Right, right, right. Okay. Sorry. So now I'm like scheduling them all, but I also leave a little bit of room to like move things around.
Vanessa Spina:
So, you know, if the week, the week before comes and I'm, I know what's coming out on Monday and I feel like it should be a different guest and I'll change it. So I really go by into intuition. Intuition.
Vanessa Spina:
And I just like feel it out. Wow. Okay. So sometimes I'll have like an episode go out, like I'll record it on a Thursday. And then I'm like, this has to go out on Monday. And then other times I'm like, this doesn't need to go out right now.
Vanessa Spina:
And it'll be out in like a few months. So it's very much like an intuitive thing for me.
Melanie Avalon:
I like that. Yeah. I feel like I'm sort of similar. I typically have a month or two. In the past, it was like three, but I feel like now I'm a little bit only a month out of episodes. And then I pretty much go based on timeline, but sometimes I'll move things around based on, yeah, if I'm feeling something.
Melanie Avalon:
Sometimes I'll get really, really excited and I just have to bump up the episode. Yeah. Which is, but that's, that's rarer though, because I'm just so usually very excited about all of them. Yeah, I get that.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Podcasts.
Vanessa Spina:
This thing is so fun. It is the best. I'm so thankful for it every day too. I think about that a lot, especially because it wasn't a thing before, you know? So, I'm so glad.
Vanessa Spina:
grateful. Yeah, it's just amazing. It's just amazing. I am so like, I feel like we both were born to do this and I'm so thankful for it every day. It's just awesome. Just love long form media and I feel like it's changing the world, you know, not just like, I'm not just like our podcast, but like, all the podcasts out there are changing the way that we have longer, deeper conversations about topics and we're learning, we're teaching each other.
Vanessa Spina:
And this is like, for me, this is what the internet is all about. It's like sharing knowledge with each other, you know, sharing long, deep conversations, not just like sound bites and having other people interpret things for us, like we could just go right to the source.
Vanessa Spina:
We don't have to read an article about a study anymore. We can hear the actual scientists talking about his results and his intentions and his methodologies and it's amazing. Like, I truly think this is one of the best parts of the internet.
Melanie Avalon:
I agree so much. Two thoughts to that. Thought one, especially in our world where everything's like TikTok and Instagram and like clickbait and so short. And even the news is like, you know, short little clips.
Melanie Avalon:
Like you said, it's like long form. It's like a conversation. I just, I love that so much. Like it really allows time to actually dive into things and get to know people. Like I love that we get to actually know our guests.
Melanie Avalon:
Like so many of my friends, like you, so many of my friends are guests from the show. And then the second thing, oh, I think one of my favorite things about it is it's like Christmas in that, you know, publicists and agents will be pitching me guests pretty much every day.
Melanie Avalon:
It's like Christmas because I get to like pick what I want to, what I want to play with, not play with, but I want to like read and engage in, you know. But okay, play that sounds awful. Play with. But like, it feels like being at the store and like, it's like, I get to pick out like my favorite thing that I want to engage with.
Melanie Avalon:
That's, that was the phrase, engage with.
Vanessa Spina:
I totally got what you're saying. It just sounded like pictures will come in and normally I'm like no no no but sometimes I see things I'm like oh yes like that's fun and it can really be like whatever like go back to the intuition whatever I just really want to learn about so yeah
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I love that feeling. I'm like, yes, let's book it.
Melanie Avalon:
So awesome. Last podcast comment, I swear, and I told you this via text, but I think I told you I'm coming around now. I understand now why you're so attracted to Elon Musk. You didn't tell me this by text.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, did you listen to my voice message? I think I said it in a voice message.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, voice messages are hard for me because like most of the time, most of the day I'm with Luca. So it's hard for me to listen because he's like always talking at the same time. So I can listen when he's like napping.
Vanessa Spina:
I'll have put like earphones in and then I listen, but then yeah, sometimes. I don't click on them right away. So maybe like it got pushed up or something. I'm
Melanie Avalon:
I'm so glad we are revisiting this then. Okay, just for a very brief. Thank you.
Vanessa Spina:
discussion. I need to know everything. Listeners are like, Oh, gosh.
Melanie Avalon:
one of those episodes. I know. Okay, so here's the thing. I think I'd only listened or watched one interview with him prior to this, which was also Joe Rogan, but it was the one where he was high on it and like NASA got mad at him.
Vanessa Spina:
It's not a good one.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So that is not, so that one, that's like not his typical vibe. I take it.
Vanessa Spina:
No, I mean, he was very eloquent and he said a lot of interesting things in it that I think about all the time. But yeah, I think a lot was made of the fact that he was not sober and etc. I just don't think it was like maybe his best show.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, is it like that meme? Have you seen that meme? Have you seen that meme where it's like, I got to find it, but it's like, have you ever like left a social situation and just thought not my best work?
Melanie Avalon:
I think that sometimes. Yeah, that's hilarious. Not my best work. So that was probably that meme for him. But yeah, I liked that interview, but that was the only one I'd watched. So I watched, he was just on Rogan again, and he was very not high.
Melanie Avalon:
He was very like sober. I don't know if he was sober, but it was a different vibe. I was like, Oh, yeah, I see it. Yeah, I see it. You see it. Mm hmm. I actually thought he looked attractive and he was very smart.
Melanie Avalon:
He pauses. He's a pauser. Have you noticed that?
Vanessa Spina:
And I always think about the fact that he's just, I think Joe Rogan asked him on that first interview what it was like being in his brain and he said it's constant explosions.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's a lot to deal with.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and he's just like, he's like, I don't know, I think he's like a hero, like he's trying to help humanity. I really truly believe that.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that was my takeaway. Maybe that's what did it, because I watched it and I was like, I was like, oh wow, he like genuinely wants to save humanity. That's like his goal.
Vanessa Spina:
goal here. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's amazing. We hear about all these geniuses in the past, you know, people like Einstein, Michelangelo and, you know, Tesla, but to see them actually alive in our time and watch them, what they're doing.
Vanessa Spina:
And, you know, he got the US off of dependence on Russia for rockets, like he was like, before that the US government had to buy, they had to buy rockets from Russia. And he created SpaceX and made the US independent in terms of now being able to just send up their own payloads to space because they now have their own rockets through SpaceX.
Vanessa Spina:
Like he did that for America. Like he's amazing. And unfortunately, like ever since he took over Twitter, he's been like really demonized for a lot of things. And I truly think he just has such a good heart and he really just wants to help.
Vanessa Spina:
Humanity and and use his incredible genius to do that. And he's, yeah, he's done so many amazing things. And I think he'll he'll continue to. But yeah, he just, he just really is pure hearted. Like he really just wants to help us.
Vanessa Spina:
It's pretty amazing. I think even if just that alone was his legacy that the US could be able to send up its own payloads to space is pretty cool.
Melanie Avalon:
I did not know that he had that effect politically with Russia. Yeah, and that was the big takeaway because I know there's a lot of controversy with X, formerly known as Twitter. How long do you call something formerly known as?
Melanie Avalon:
How long? I don't know. Every time I see that phrase, I'm like, I wonder how long we're going to say that.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, we're just so attached to the name and the brand and everything that it's hard. I still think of it as Twitter. I see the X icon on my phone. I barely use Twitter, but I see the icon and I'm like, I still think of it as Twitter.
Vanessa Spina:
I think it just makes us all more comfortable to still say Twitter in the title, you know? But I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I just think it's kind of been a big distraction for him and it's embroiled him in a lot of negativity that he doesn't deserve.
Vanessa Spina:
So, unfortunately.
Melanie Avalon:
question for you. When Twitter switched to X because I don't follow the news at all. So like at all. So I didn't know it was switching. I don't know if they were talking about that it was going to switch.
Melanie Avalon:
Did they talk about that it was going to switch before it switched or did it just switch?
Vanessa Spina:
So Pete uses Twitter a lot and he said he knew but for me it was like what what do you mean? It's called what?
Melanie Avalon:
Well, I just remember I was on my phone and all of a sudden there was this big X and I was like, I was like, who hacked my phone? Because it looks like, you know, it looks like something scandalous. Because I was like, where did this app come from?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, X is, yeah, I don't get it.
Melanie Avalon:
And then I clicked on it, I was like, oh, that's interesting. I never, yeah, I never go on Twitter, or X, I never go there. In any case, what I was gonna say was, I know he's shrouded in a lot of controversy and politicalness and I'm a highly apolitical person myself.
Melanie Avalon:
Like I'm really like, I just don't get involved. Listening to the interview, I was like, oh, and I said this earlier, but like he really, the reason he bought Twitter is because he really thinks, whether or not he is, he really thinks he's saving humanity.
Melanie Avalon:
And it's hard to demonize him hearing from his heart why he did it. He was like, oh, I'm gonna go there.
Vanessa Spina:
He wants, he truly believes that we need as a society to have freedom of speech and to have this, he calls it like a community forum that like you're not where everyone can talk where you're not like silencing certain people or you're not.
Vanessa Spina:
He just thinks it's so important for us, all of us to have one like community forum where like anything can be said and that is like the notion of free speech. So yeah, it again, it's really hard to talk about it without it being politicized and everything, you know, and that's not something that we really talk about on the podcast much.
Vanessa Spina:
But I really think he's amazing. And yeah, I'm glad that you're seeing it now too. And he's also super.
Melanie Avalon:
Well, that's the thing.
Vanessa Spina:
Because his personality makes him, I think.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, and yeah, because you know, it's like video on Spotify, so I kept looking down. I was like, oh, he's an attractive man. I understand now.
Vanessa Spina:
I'm so glad I got the update. I'll have to find that voice note. I'll have to go back and find it.
Melanie Avalon:
I know. No, I did way more justice to it here, but all the way, but, okay, I'm gonna stop this train, but he has like 10 kids, right? At least seven. That's crazy. And that's it.
Vanessa Spina:
and they're like all boys. Really?
Melanie Avalon:
all of them.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, unless he's had a girl, you know, I don't follow as closely as I used to, but yeah, mostly boys.
Melanie Avalon:
Crazy. Oh, I did. That is a question I asked Valter Longo. That was my favorite moment of the Valter Longo episode for sure. I asked him because we were talking about how lifespan is driven by basically the need to reproduce and that all these processes are in place to like extend our lifespan so that we can have children.
Melanie Avalon:
And then once you have children and then once your role is like done with taking care of the child, then the body doesn't really care so much about staying around. So I asked him if you don't have kids, what are the implications there?
Melanie Avalon:
Because then your body's like still waiting, you know, to have kids. So would that extend lifespan? He says he thinks like, and this is me paraphrasing and listeners can listen to the episode, which was I have podcast episode 352, but he essentially said that like theoretically, yes, if you didn't have kids, it shouldn't theory promote your lifespan.
Melanie Avalon:
And it might, but it's probably not super measurable. And I'm the takeaway was that it might be like a year or two difference. But I personally don't, you know, see myself having kids. So that's all I'm going to say there.
Melanie Avalon:
That's in favor of my longevity, but he made it sound like it wasn't a big deal. Yeah, that's interesting. So, yep. Well, that was all of the
Vanessa Spina:
rabbit holes? Yeah, this always happens when we haven't gotten to record together in a couple weeks. We usually end up catching up and chatting a lot, but I'm ready for questions if you are.
Melanie Avalon:
Now I'm thinking we should discuss more studies in the beginning. Listeners, let us know if that's of interest to you because it's so timely, no pun intended. Okay. So our first question comes from Carolyn, first and probably only.
Melanie Avalon:
And this subject is IF and Lyme Disease. And Carolyn says, I am continuing to love the podcast through all of the co -host changes and am delighted to follow your remarkable career, Melanie. Well, thank you.
Melanie Avalon:
So nice. She says, I am really loving you as well, Vanessa, because my ancestry is from Prague and I'm wanting to play on a trip there with my 17 year old son. So hearing all about your life there has kept me on the edge of my seat.
Melanie Avalon:
Well, that's so wonderful. She says, I am a 55 year old woman who has devoted my life to fitness and nutrition. I have had a few minor health issues, hypothyroid diagnosis in 2012, herniated disc surgery in 2016, histamine intolerance in 2022.
Melanie Avalon:
But for the most part, enjoy abundant energy and a pretty lean and muscular physique, not to mention amazing mental clarity since starting IF in 2018. On June 21st, 2023, I was diagnosed with Lyme Disease and immediately started a course of antibiotics along with herbal supplements and a medicinal mushroom blend specific to addressing Lyme.
Melanie Avalon:
The longest extended fast I have done was several years ago and was around 90 hours or so. I'm interested in doing a five day fast, especially now if it will be helpful in eliminating these stealthy corkscrew shaped pests.
Melanie Avalon:
I'm a teacher, so I do not have to report back to work until early September. So the summer would be the perfect time to embark upon this fast, especially while I am just getting started trying to eliminate this pathogen from my body.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for all you do and for any insight you can provide about the benefits of fasting and mitigating the impacts of Lyme Disease. Gracefully, Carolyn. OK. Gratefully. Oh, gratefully.
Vanessa Spina:
I was like gracefully, it's such a nice way of signing off. I've never heard that.
Melanie Avalon:
I know we just started adapting that. Let me say that again. Gratefully. Thank you.
Vanessa Spina:
Carolyn. That's so nice, you know, all about your ancestry being from Prague and, you know, following Melanie's remarkable career. I love all the comments. It sounds like you've been doing amazing with your health and lifestyle and everything.
Vanessa Spina:
With regards to Lyme, I'm not sure how you're doing now because it sounds like this was before the summer. And I'm not sure if you actually ended up doing a five -day fast. But I did do a little bit of research and the thing that I found the most evidence on was with regards to autophagy.
Vanessa Spina:
So there was a really interesting study done about actually 10 years ago is about how autophagy modulates the bacteria that is producing a lot of inflammation when it comes to Lyme. So the study was pretty in -depth.
Vanessa Spina:
Would be great to link it in the show notes if you want to go and check it out. But they basically determined that when they inhibit autophagy, so they block autophagy, it increases the cytokine production of two, they're interleukin -6 and interleukin -1 beta.
Vanessa Spina:
So that basically says that autophagy, if it's not inhibited, if it is instead enhanced, that you could reduce that cytokine production and lower inflammation that is produced during Lyme. So I think a lot of the issues that come up with Lyme are pain from the inflammation.
Vanessa Spina:
And so I think that fasting, doing an extended fast has been shown in the research, I think, to produce pretty dramatic autophagy. So that's probably why you're looking into it. I have seen some other, I guess, like anecdotes or self -reported stories.
Vanessa Spina:
So there's an amazing blogger who is in Canada. A lot of people follow her and she says that she reversed her Lyme with fasting and carnivore. I think a lot of other people are doing that. I know Craig Emmerich has been doing carnivore to help with his Lyme.
Vanessa Spina:
So ketogenic diets also lower inflammation and carnivore often tends to end up with ketogenic macros. So I think that there's also a lot of nutrient density, but slow down, farmstead, and that's the account.
Vanessa Spina:
I saw that Rob Wolf, he reposted her post that she did about how she was diagnosed with Lyme and she has no pain in her body whatsoever and is completely able to manage all the symptoms. Like she really has no symptoms.
Vanessa Spina:
And she says it's all from doing prolonged fasting and carnivore. So I think it's definitely something to look into. And to reach out, you could reach out potentially to people like that, look into the research on it, and a lot of the research on fasting shows that autophagy is massively upregulated after 36 hours.
Vanessa Spina:
So if you're on to 72 hours, I think anywhere between three to five days, you'll probably get a massive amount of autophagy. There's also other ways to get autophagy. Exercise is one of the best ones.
Vanessa Spina:
It sounds like you already do a lot of exercise. So if that's something you can still do, it'll probably also help generating autophagy. It doesn't necessarily just need to be fasting, but definitely something I would say to look into and do more research on and talk to your care provider about if there's someone that specializes in Lyme they may be familiar or you could bring some of the research to them to talk about it with them.
Vanessa Spina:
What do you think, Melanie? Thank you.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much. That was so incredibly helpful. We'll put a link in the show notes, which will be at ifpodcast .com slash episode 353 to that study. I really appreciate that. We actually released our recent episodes with Craig Emmerich around the same time, I think, because you just released yours with him sort of recently, right?
Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Yes, and I did as well. I talked with him about, I think there's a lot of potential for modulating the immune system for how you're actually reacting to the Lyme, whether or not you technically have it or not.
Melanie Avalon:
Because a lot of us have dormant infections of a lot of different types, and they can be kept at bay and actually not, quote, bother us if the immune system is keeping everything in check. So I think anything immune supportive would be really helpful in fasting is definitely immune supportive.
Melanie Avalon:
So, yeah, definitely, Carolyn, if you might have already done it by now, if you did, let us know and let us know if you had any beneficial effects from it. And also sending love. I know it can be really hard.
Melanie Avalon:
I personally had my own. I got diagnosed with it and I went down the rabbit hole. And honestly, the thing that helped me the most, this isn't necessarily the approach for everybody, but it's what worked for me.
Melanie Avalon:
I just stopped caring. And what I mean by that is I went into a mode where I was so fixated and I was like, I have Lyme in me. I have to kill it. I have to do all the things. I was in like an attack mode and I got so worn out from that.
Melanie Avalon:
I know that helped. That works for a lot of people. A lot of people do need to be aggressive and there's definitely a big difference between like you got bit by a tick yesterday and you just got positive and you need to do antibiotics now.
Melanie Avalon:
Like that's very different than me testing positive for Lyme as interpreted by some doctors, but not others and like the vagueness surrounding it and just having an overwhelming sense of fatigue. So like that state versus an acute instance where you just got Lyme.
Melanie Avalon:
When I finally decided like, you know what, I'm just going to focus on recovery and healing and not attacking all the time. And I'm not even going to test for Lyme anymore. That actually helped me the most.
Melanie Avalon:
And that's not going to work for everybody, but it worked for me. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, actually, and I went and saw a new doctor recently, a holistic doctor. She was like, oh, we should like test you for Lyme.
Melanie Avalon:
And I was like, I don't want to. Like I'm fine. I don't need to.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean if you're asymptomatic then why, yeah, why worry about it.
Melanie Avalon:
Well, I mean, I always am struggling a little bit with fatigue issues and certain things, but I'm just so massively better than where I was that I just don't want to open that rabbit hole. So, and that's not, again, that's not going to work for everybody, but it really worked for me.
Melanie Avalon:
Because I think some people just get locked down in fear and they're just, they're obsessive and that's all they can think about. I think it's really hard to heal when you're in that mindset. So, I think stepping back and taking a breather can help a lot of people.
Melanie Avalon:
So, yep. Hoki -doki. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ivepodcast .com or you can go to ivepodcast .com and you can submit questions there.
Melanie Avalon:
And this should be done by the time this comes out for sure because I'm working on it right now and we're a few months ahead. I think I will have really optimized our Stuff We Like page on ivepodcast .com slash Stuff We Like.
Melanie Avalon:
It was kind of a mess for a while, but I'm really tackling it right now. So, you should be able to get all of the stuff that we like at ivepodcast .com slash Stuff We Like. And you can follow us on Instagram, we are ivepodcast.
Melanie Avalon:
I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is Ketagenet Girl and I think that is all of those things. And anything for me or Vanessa before we go.
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I had so much fun with you and I'm excited to record the next one.
Melanie Avalon:
Me too. I will talk to you next week. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
STUFF WE LIKE
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
LINKS
BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com
Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com
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