Welcome to Episode 360 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!
SHOW NOTES
Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!
BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and ge4t 3 lbs of chicken thighs, 2 lbs of ground beef, or 1 lb of premium steak tips—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!
LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!
Write a review on Apple Podcasts to enter to win a giveaway!
Listener Q&A: Julian - How to deal with fasting as a person who works out early in the mornings.
Listener Q&A: Valory - How do you find the right fasting window (time of day plus duration) for you?
Go to melanieavalon.com/ifquiz to find the right fasting window for you!
Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 360 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
This is Episode 360 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am so excited because I am back here again with Vanessa Spina. It has been so long for us that I literally just forgot the intro, and she had to remind me how to start the show. So, Vanessa.
Vanessa Spina:
Bye everyone.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you.
Vanessa Spina:
I'm so excited to be back here with you.
Melanie Avalon:
I am so excited. And Vanessa is a champ. She is doing this post pregnancy with her beautiful little boy who might even be like with her while during part of the recordings upcoming. We shall see. We're not sure how it's going to go, but we're just going to go with it. But Vanessa, oh my goodness. I mean, there's so much I want to hear about. How was your pregnancy? Oh my goodness. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
I mean, the delivery was great. You know, he was our little Christmas miracle. And we were so excited to be having him at Christmas, even though, you know, I'm a little bit worried he's not going to love his birth date. But it was just incredible. It was such a magical time. The hospital, the birthing place that we were at, it's like a big birthing hospital, just had Christmas trees everywhere. And it was really magical. And my parents were, you know, visiting and staying with Luca. And we were at the hospital for actually quite a long time, almost two weeks. And Luca would come and visit us at the at the baby place. It was so much fun to like, I don't know, the whole thing will always have such an amazing place in my heart because it was such a magical time. Whenever you have a baby, it's such a magical experience. So all of it was incredible. And he's just doing amazing. He's two months old now. He's just the smileiest baby ever. He's so smiley. He makes the cutest little sounds. And every day he's just getting more awake and alert and just with us. And it's so much fun. Like we're just in like baby bliss heaven. It's been amazing. But thank you so much for asking.
Melanie Avalon:
My goodness and sweet to clarify he was born on Christmas
Vanessa Spina:
His due date was Christmas Day, and he ended up being born about six days before that, so right after, but we were in the hospital for a little bit of extended time, so we spent Christmas Day in the hospital, and my mom made a full Christmas dinner, and her and my dad brought it to the hospital, and we had it in our hospital room. We had a really nice room there, so it was spacious, but we were on a small table, like having our Christmas dinner there, but it was like so magical and special, you know. Christmas makes everything, you know, magical, so yeah, it was a whole Christmas baby thing, and yeah, it was really amazing.
Melanie Avalon:
Wow, I'm so happy for you. What was your very first? Because I remember you made a comment about having a drink post delivery. What was your first meal? Or what did you have first after delivering?
Vanessa Spina:
I did have to have sushi. I did order sushi. I was like, it's becoming like a tradition now because I had to do that right after Luca. And then I thought I was going to have like a margarita or something in the hospital. I always kind of say that to myself just to help, you know, the past like the last couple months, you're just like, I just don't want to really be pregnant anymore. So it helps to think about like what you're going to do, you're going to get to do. For me, it's like sleeping on my stomach, because I really miss that when I'm pregnant. I was really excited for and then we had champagne on New Year's, which was like right after we got, it was like two days after we got home from the hospital. So we had New Year's Eve, we had champagne, and it was really nice. It was really, really good. But how, how are you doing? How, you know, how are your holidays? Like, how has everything been like, been so excited to catch up with you on everything.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Wait, and you're a stomach sleeper? Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. I actually have an episode, I haven't done the interview yet, but it's about, it's with somebody who makes out the neck nest, which is like this pillow that forces you to sleep on your back, which apparently is how you're supposed to sleep. I'm a side sleeper.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, back is the ultimate. I do, I'm able to do it for naps. I did today, I was napping with Luca and Damien, but at night I find it hard to do. So yeah, I've looked into actually things. I used to have this pillow I got that was like, it has a space for your head and then it had, the pillow part was on around your head. So it kind of holds your head so that you could sleep on your back. Cause it's hard to do.
Melanie Avalon:
That's what he makes. That's his pillow. And I've had it here because they sent it. I feel so bad. They sent the pillow. And they were like, we really want you to use it before you interview him so you can have your experience. And I was like, okay, I'll do this. And then it came. I just don't like doing it. And also it had down feathers in it, which kind of bothered me. So I was like, I'm sorry, I can't use it down feathers. Oh, well, then they were like, Oh, we'll send you another one special made without down feathers. I was like, Oh, no. I have no excuse.
Vanessa Spina:
Excuse. You must have like so many products, I mean, to test and to sample and I'm sure you have so many things that people want you to try out and stuff.
Melanie Avalon:
Which speaking of I have I promise I've opened it and taken pictures with it your tone device and I'm gonna use it I swear I have like the pictures ready and waiting I promise I'm gonna do it soon I can't wait to try it
Vanessa Spina:
I haven't thought about it, there's no pressure, no rush. Seriously, I just felt like you had to have a black and rose one. I mean a rose gold one, black and rose gold one.
Melanie Avalon:
And what I'm curious about, and so for listeners, the tone device measures the ketone levels in your breath, I'm really curious if I ever blow ketones like ever.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I know. I'm curious too, because I remember you said you never really had much.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, actually today would be a good day to try it because last night on occasion, because normally I eat a ton of fruit at night, like a ton. Last night I didn't have any. So today would actually be a good day to see. Yes. It's good to go. Like I just like turn it on and like we're rolling.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah it's good to calibrate it so that you just turn it on and let it read zero three times and then do a test. So you can do the calibration anytime like anytime you haven't used it in a while anytime it's been sitting just unused it's good to do the calibration so you just turn it on let it count down let it read nothing let it read zero three times and then you do the test and it just warms the sensor up a little bit more because it's a 20 second warm -up so then you'll have a whole minute and 20 seconds of warm -up then and then do it when you first first get it sometimes it takes a little bit like say a few days to warm up to you and your breath and everything but it should be detecting ketones like right from that that first test after the calibration
Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I'm motivated. I'm going to do it. I'm also wearing a CGM right now. That was one reason I wanted to play around with carbs. I was curious to see how it would affect my blood sugar levels ongoing. I actually put it on because announcement, I launched a TikTok channel, which is a whole nother world. Are you on TikTok?
Vanessa Spina:
I tried it when it first came out and it was like maybe four years ago and I made a bunch of videos and I just couldn't get into it and I couldn't figure it out. I was just like, I don't know, I'm just gonna go back to Instagram and they launched Reels. So I was like, I'm gonna stick to the Reels and I'm here because this is where I have the following. But yeah, I mean, good for you if you're doing it and if you get into it and you can reach so many new people.
Melanie Avalon:
We'll see how it goes. It's an intimidating world. I feel like it's like moving to a new school and you're like the new kid. It's a good way to put it. So, but I put on the CGM because I'm going to do monthly shoots with my photographer. So I put it on the CGM during the shoot, but yeah, I'm kind of just like letting her post and then I like go back to Instagram and like hang out. And then I go in and occasionally, and like I posted some Taylor Swift videos and those get like thousands of views. I'm like, Oh, this is the way to go Taylor Swift videos all day.
Vanessa Spina:
That's perfect for you.
Melanie Avalon:
Maybe I should just post Taylor Swift videos over there. So yes, so friends, please follow me so I don't feel alone over there and give up and like leave. It's Melanie Avalon Biohacker is my handle. This airs early March. Exciting things are coming. My spirulina supplement should be launching soon. So I'm very excited about that. That will be at AvalonX .us. EMF Walking Product Line is still coming, I promise. And then very exciting, massive sparkly project of overwhelming awesomeness, hopefully this year. I don't know. It's like, it's the biggest thing I've ever done, I think. So that's coming. Teaser. That's a big tease. That's a big tease. Okay, yeah. Well, I did want to announce, okay, some announcements for listeners. We have been getting requests to have more, this is the Interpreter Fasting Podcast. So requests to have more fasting content. So we are going to start a little format where I'm going to talk very briefly about a fun little study at the beginning of every episode, just to like bounce our thoughts off. And you can let us know if you like that or not, we could adjust accordingly. And then also we would love to do a giveaway for you guys because who doesn't love winning free things? So this giveaway, if you go to Apple Podcasts, subscribe to the show and write a review. If you haven't done this before, you can write a new review. If you've written a review before, thank you so much. Just go and update your review. And in that review, share something that you like about this show or something sparkly or your thoughts, just in general. We would love to hear from you. And those reviews, they really, they really, really help more than most people realize. So the giveaway, we are giving away the entire line of both of our products. So you will get all the avallonic supplements and you'll get Vanessa's tone protein, all of that. And you'll get something from MD Logic. I'm not sure what they're gonna give you. They're gonna pick something. So to enter to win after you write that review, send a screenshot of that review to questions at iapodcast .com and we will enter you to win. So again, just go to Apple Podcasts, subscribe, write a brief new review or longer if you like, longer is fine. Or update your prior review and send a screenshot to questions at iapodcast .com and we will enter you to win. So this is huge. This is like all the things. You'll get serapeptase to break down problematic proteins in your body and clear your sinuses and remove inflammation and take that in the fasted state, very important. It's a great catalyst for your fast. You'll get magnesium breakthrough, which is a full spectrum magnesium blend for all your magnesium needs. You'll get magnesium nightcap, which is a magnesium that crosses the blood -brain barrier, helps with sleep, relaxation, mood and memory. You'll get berberine, which is great for blood sugar control. Wearing a CGM and using avallonix berberine, I really see a huge difference in my blood sugar levels and I hear that from so many people as well. So that's a great way to supplement your diet and your fast. You'll get Vanessa's tone protein. Vanessa, would you like to tell the benefits of your tone protein?
Vanessa Spina:
Absolutely. So tone protein was scientifically optimized to help you initiate muscle protein synthesis and help you build muscle and it's enhanced with leucine. So you will be guaranteed to initiate muscle protein synthesis with every serving that you take. And it also tastes absolutely delicious. It has a vanilla bean flavor and you can put it in pretty much anything. I love putting it in plain yogurt, in shakes, adding fruit, adding cocoa powder, make it into a chocolate shake. There's so many things you can do with it. I even make waffles with it and developed a recipe for that. So it's really, really amazing and a delicious way to help you build muscle and get toned.
Melanie Avalon:
So that's awesome because as you guys know, we are all about the protein and if you want one protein powder, you want Vanessa's protein because you can really trust her about her formulation with the protein. So that's amazing. And then like I said, MD Logic is going to throw in something. I'm not sure what they're going to throw in. I don't know. I love a lot of their supplements. They have a great vitamin D, they have a great new probiotic, they have a melatonin, so they're going to throw in a surprise Fonzie as well. So that is, I should probably have counted up how much that is worth, but that's worth a lot. I mean, hundreds of dollars, maybe, maybe, a couple hundred. So to win that, again, go to Apple Podcasts, subscribe to the show, write a new Apple review or update your existing review, share your thoughts on a show, something you like, something that resonates, all the things, and it will run through the beginning of April. So you have a little bit of time to do that, so go do that now. And we will announce the winner probably a little bit later in April. So thank you so much, guys, for that. Can't wait to see all of your thoughts and all the things and also to give away those supplements. And then in the meantime, if you would like to buy any of the supplements for yourself, you can go to AvalonX .us, use the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get a discount. Vanessa, how can people get your toned protein?
Vanessa Spina:
available at MDLogic's website, so MDLogic .com, and we can link that in the show notes for everyone.
Melanie Avalon:
Perfect. And then you can also get all of MDLogic supplements also at MDLogic .com. Okay. And then one more last announcement before we jump into the fasting study. I just wanted to briefly plug a new sponsor we have on the show. They're not actually sponsoring today's episode, but I'm just so obsessed with them that I wanted to personally talk about them on the show in addition to the ads that we run in the show otherwise. So, real paper, I'm obsessed with them so much. They make toilet paper made out of 100% bamboo, which honestly, I had not optimized my toilet paper usage and consumption for sustainability at all. I mean, if you think about it, normal toilet paper, you're cutting down trees, like you're cutting down trees and then you're using that toilet paper and then it's just like done. Like it's like one and done. Not sustainable, not good for the planet. Bamboo is a grass, which I hadn't really thought about until I had the call with the founder and I was like, oh yeah, you're right. This is kind of mind blowing. So bamboo, it just grows back. Like you cut it down, you mix the toilet paper and it grows right back. It is so cool. And what they've really done is they've really optimized their toilet paper to be super soft and amazing and you don't feel like you're missing out on anything from normal toilet paper and then they are so sustainable that there's zero plastic, oh, there's zero dyes and zero perfumes. That's an experience I've had with toilet paper where I accidentally have bought toilet paper that was scented and I was like, whoa, this is a problem. I do not want all these chemicals down there. So it's completely dye free, completely unscented and plastic free. Their packaging is so plastic free that there's not even plastic in the tape that they use, which that really inspired me. I was like, oh, I got to look into that for shipping my own stuff because that is next level. And then lastly, it comes straight to your door so you don't have to go out and get toilet paper anymore. Like so, so amazing. So we have an amazing discount for you guys. Oh wait, and then one last thing for every order that you buy, they plant a tree. So not only are you not cutting down trees, by buying this toilet paper, you are planting trees. I love it. They sent me free toilet paper, obviously to try so that I could speak to it. And now I'm like a customer, like I'm signing up myself, like I'm buying this. I love it so much. So you can go to realpaper .com slash if podcast and they have an incredible discount. You can use the coupon code IF podcast to get 30% off your first order plus free shipping. And that includes subscriptions. Their subscriptions are discounted. So that means if you get a subscription, which is discounted, you can get another 30% discount on that subscription. So definitely just go ahead and get a subscription. And if you don't like it, cancel, although you probably won't want to because you're going to love it. But either way, that's the way to get the best discount on your first order. So that is realpaper .com R E E L P A P E R .com slash I have podcasts, coupon code I have podcasts to get 30% off your first order plus free shipping. It's with times like these, Vanessa, that I wish you lived in the US so that you could be getting our bamboo toilet paper that I'm obsessed with.
Vanessa Spina:
with. I'm gonna try and see if there's something like that comparable in Europe but definitely when we're back in the U .S. I'm gonna try it.
Melanie Avalon:
Are you going to like, stay in Prague for forever?
Vanessa Spina:
No, not for, I don't think forever, but for the, like for now, this is where we are. But we're definitely going to be back, I think at Christmas towards the holidays. So I'll definitely try it. And whenever I'm back, I have like all the samples waiting at our place. Like I have so many things to try and stuff. So yeah, I'll definitely put that on my list.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. I just realized we'll have to talk next episode. We haven't talked on the show since I like went to Europe, right? Oh my goodness. No. Oh my goodness. I have travel takeaway tips. Okay. You told me a little bit about it, but yeah. Okay. Teaser next episode. It has been so long. Okay. So fasting. So I decided to just randomly look up new fasting studies. This will also be really fun for me because it'll force me to really, you know, see what people are writing about with fasting these days. So this study, and I thought it was a great study for this episode because we have a question about it, although we might not get to it, in which case I'll just talk about it next time. But this was a case where I was reading another study, which was actually very new, but then I was like looking at the reference studies and then I found in the reference studies, this fun little study. So it was kind of like a rabbit hole. So this one is actually from 2021 published in new trance and it's called pre -exercise carbohydrate or protein ingestion influences substrate oxidation, but not performance or hunger compared with cycling in the fasted state. And so what they were looking at, they looked at 17 trained male cyclists doing high intensity interval training. So hit training, and they wanted to see how either doing it fasted after an overnight fast or doing it with a carbohydrate rich breakfast or a protein rich breakfast. How did it affect their fat burning as well as everything else going on. So it was really interesting. So the brief takeaways, well, they talked about in general, how like reducing your carb consumption before exercise has been shown pretty consistently in the literature to increase fat burning and also to increase the activation of beneficial cell signaling pathways and also to help with muscle adaptation. So we love that. But then they've talked about how historically as well that it's often recommended that people do eat carbs before exercise. If the exercise is going to be longer or more intense and that on the flip side, that athletes often get a little bit nervous about doing fasted training because they think that it will negatively affect their workout or that they'll get super hungry, even though they do tend to like the increased fat burning and they do tend to find that it improves gut comfort during exercise, which I know personally for me, one of the main reasons I would want to do fasted exercise is I just, the idea of working out with food in my stomach is just so like unpleasant sounding to me. Like Vanessa, do you like or mind working out with food in your stomach compared to an empty stomach?
Vanessa Spina:
I'm someone who likes to work out fasted, for sure, like I, and if I have eaten earlier in the day, it's okay. But there has to be quite a bit of time elapsed between that, but 99% of the time I'm working out fasted and it works the best for me, but I know a lot of people need to eat before. I actually have a question related to this, which will be fun to have this study to refer
Melanie Avalon:
to. Exactly. That's actually the study. I was hinting at before if we get to it, maybe we'll just like bump it up. So what they found was, oh, this is another, this is another something interesting they pointed out because the way this study was set up was that it was done in an overnight fasted state. So it wasn't presumably like a 24 hour fast or anything. It was just they had fasted overnight and then they exercised. And then they, the study pointed out that that sort of fasting would deplete liver glycogen, but not muscle glycogen. So they weren't concerned with performance decreases in the workout from muscle glycogen alone because people would still have that. It's really just the liver glycogen that would have been depleted. So in any case, what did they find? So they found between all of the different arms of the study that there was no difference for average power, oxidative stress, perceived exertion, or hunger. So I mean, that kind of says exactly what it says, but basically the actual ability for them to do the workout, the way it felt, like how hard it felt and whether or not they got hungrier or not wasn't any different based on if they had carbs before, protein before, or were fasted. And again, this was high intensity interval training for cyclists. So that's basically where you go really, really intense for a really short amount of time. Then you rest and then you go intense and then you go slower and then you go intense and then you go slower. That's the sort of workout it was, but it's a type of workout that is a very intense albeit shorter workout. Okay. So what differences did they find? They actually found that the fasted exercise did increase fat burning compared to having carbs. So the athletes burn more if they had fat. However, having a pre -exercise protein meal allowed similarly high levels of fat oxidation. So what I thought was really cool about this is basically, at least in this study, they found that the athletes could go fasted or they could eat protein and they would burn similar amounts of fat, which I think has a lot of implications. Maybe when people are playing around with their exercise performance and whether or not too fast and whether or not, you know, do they feel like they need some food beforehand? There's possibly the possibility that having protein might be a way to still allow you to have that fat burning while having some food in your stomach. And they did find as far as like the gut comfort that we were talking about, they did find that the protein meal did increase gut discomfort a little bit, but they said it was basically modest. So on the scale of 1 to 100, it was around a 21, like change. But it started at a 12. I'm not really sure how this rating system worked, but basically their gut comfort when they started was a 12 and then it only went up to about a 21 with the protein. So they said basically it wasn't like that bad. So it seemed like still viable that people could eat a protein meal beforehand and not have too much gut discomfort. And then they referenced a lot of prior studies that have been done on eating protein as the pre -exercise fuel meal. The results have been mixed. So some studies have found increased discomfort and some have not found that. So I think it's really an individuality when it comes to, you know, what actually best suits your gut and how you feel while exercising. But in any case, that's the basics of the study. It did go into a lot more detail and nuance, but I just found it really interesting, especially for people because we get a lot of questions and maybe we'll just go ahead and read the question that we have from the listener because we get a lot of questions on this show about people struggling to work exercise in with their fasting pattern and feeling like maybe they need to eat something. And it sounds like depending on the exercise, depending on you, there might be this possibility for having a protein -rich meal, a low -carb meal, before your exercise and still burning ample amounts of fat. It's not, you're not going to be in the fasted state, so, you know, don't think it's like magical that way, but it might be an option for people. And like I said, we can maybe read that listener's question. But before we do that, do you have any thoughts or comments, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
So there's a really interesting study that's similar to this that I quote all the time on my podcast, Optimal Protein Podcast, because it's all about how basically if you do facet exercise, one of the main benefits is you get mitochondrial biogenesis. And so a lot of people feel like, well, they need to work out facet even if they don't feel comfortable doing that, because they want the mitochondrial biogenesis or the genesis of more mitochondria. And this study in particular that I'm mentioning talks about how if you actually eat protein meals, high protein meals, but you're not really eating a lot of carb, you basically get two thirds of the same amount of mitochondrial biogenesis. The expression of new mitochondria, you don't get the whole amount, but as much as two thirds. So for people who feel better eating before their meals and they don't like doing facet exercise, I always say if you're doing it low carb, keto -ish, high protein meal, then you're probably going to get the same amount of mitochondrial biogenesis. But now with this awesome study you're talking about, they also can rest assured that they're going to burn probably about the same amount of fat. And that's probably the connection between the two, is that you're relying on your stored body fat and so you have to generate more mitochondria as an adaptation. So I love that you chose this one to start off with and also because it relates back to this question, which I'd love to get to.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I love that. So thank you. We'll have to put both of these studies in the show notes. And that's actually also similar because they talked about the oxidative stress potential. Yeah, they talked about the reactive oxygen species in exercise and they found that there wasn't any difference between the different arms in this study for oxidative stress markers. So that's really interesting. They actually said that that was surprising. They thought they would see a difference when they're not sure why. They said it might have to do with the fact that the individuals were well trained so that they had similar responses, which that goes into a whole rabbit hole.
Vanessa Spina:
There definitely should be way less if you're being fat -fueled because you don't have as much free radicals being created or generated from burning carbs, so I'm surprised.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, says they also found a large degree of inter individual variability, which you know what that says to me that coupled with the fact they were saying the well trained individuals that clearly, I mean, I would think that what you're eating, especially if they saw variability, then clearly the different ones are having different effects, but a lot of it probably comes down to your overall, like your overall metabolic state and your exercise potential. And, you know, if you're more attuned to exercise and dealing with oxidative stress, you're probably better at dealing with it, which may sound a little obvious. What I'm trying to say is the oxidative stress potential probably isn't just about what you're eating. It's probably your overall body composition and your health and your, you know, how trained your mitochondria are in general.
Vanessa Spina:
If you have more mitochondria, then you take the burden off a little bit of creating as much as many free radicals. But I find that surprising because still, if you're being carb fueled, you're definitely going to get more, more free radicals. So that's interesting. Maybe it was the way they were measuring it or something. But yeah, thanks for sharing that.
Melanie Avalon:
No, thank you. So again, we will put links to that in the show notes and I'll go ahead and read the question we had kind of related. So the question was from Julianne and this came from Facebook. I've been asking for questions more in Facebook, by the way. So definitely join that group. It's IF Biohackers Intermittent Fasting plus Real Foods plus Life. Tangent, I'm still hacked. So my profile in there is like my fake little baby profile that I just made recently because all my old profiles are being run by who knows random people. So if you see crazy ads for me advertising random stuff, that's not me. So just as a disclaimer, but back to the Facebook group, definitely comment in there things you would like to hear on the show because I find it really great because people can chime in in the meantime on people's comments. So Julianne's question was how to deal with fasting as a person who works out early in the mornings, weight training and cardio. I find that I get extremely tired and hungry after. Is this a sign to shorten my fasting window or is there something I can do to continue fasting after working out but not feel so exhausted? And I will just draw attention to the fact that the study I was talking about again was HIIT HIIT training. So it's really intense but it's shorter and Julianne is talking about doing weight training and cardio. So she's doing like a longer exercise she's doing strength training and she's doing catabolic fat -burning cardio. So it's a little bit of a different situation but do you have any thoughts for Julianne, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
I mean, if you're doing this kind of workout, doing weight training, especially, I would wanna maximize my returns from that by having like a protein shake after my workout and maybe taking in some calories as well, just because you're expending so much energy between the weight training and the cardio, and you're gonna be expending energy with that post -exercise oxygen burn for hours afterwards. You know, right away, when I saw this question, I was like, well, if you feel extremely tired and hungry after you're listening to your body, you definitely should refuel, and the optimal time to take in protein is right after doing weight training. So based on what we were just talking about with that awesome study that you brought in and the one that I mentioned as well, if you're eating a high protein meal, you're not gonna cut down on your fat burning. I'm not gonna say it's like you're fasted, but in a sense, you know, you're getting two thirds as much of the mitochondrial biogenesis, you know, but you're eating, you still did your workout fast, so you're gonna actually get all of the mitochondrial biogenesis, you're gonna get all the fat burning, and you're not gonna reduce any of that in the recovery period afterwards if you're eating a high protein meal that's very low in carb. So like a protein shake would be amazing, I think, optimal after that, and I definitely wouldn't try to force or push fasting if you're feeling extremely tired and hungry after. It's definitely a sign that, you know, you did an amazing workout, and you probably need to refuel, and you know, you wanna take in, it's a great time to take in some amazing nutrients and you know, high quality protein right after that workout. What do you think, Mani? Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so I had a few thoughts. My one comment on that is maybe for one of the future studies I'll look because this study was looking at, you know, the protein before the exercise and how it affected fat burning. So I don't know what happens. I don't know how it would affect fat burning after exercise. I wonder if they've done a study on that and I bet they have. So I will try to find one. I just don't want to make that, at least from this study, I don't want to make that assumption. Although in theory, it would make sense if like the mechanics of the protein are not affecting fat burning. Hopefully that would extend to the post exercise fat burning potential period. So I think that's a great idea. What Vanessa said, that would be, you know, refuel with the protein, you could use her, her tone protein, that could be a great way to do it. Some ideas I had were, you're getting really tired and hungry. First of all, I would look at, at your sleep because it sounds like you're somebody you said you work out early in the morning. So it sounds like you're one of those people that gets up really early to work out, which is like literally the most, uh, I just can't do it. So props to you. Are you at all sacrificing your sleep for that workout? Because if you're starting it off in a sleep deprived state already, that can be one way to help with the tiredness that isn't even food or fasting related. So really honoring the sleep and then also, so when is your last meal? So if you don't want to eat, because basically you have kind of three options here that I was thinking you have option one that Vanessa just mentioned, which is to refuel with protein right after, which I really liked that idea. And then kind of playing around with that and maybe adjusting your fasting windows accordingly. So maybe, maybe if you weren't eating that earlier in the day beforehand, but now you are maybe like ending your eating window earlier so that you're still getting a longer fast leader. You're just kind of changing around where your fasting hours are. And again, we don't know when Julian's fasting hours are normally. So it's sort of hard to comment, but that's one idea. Second idea was to do kind of like what that study was that I just mentioned, which would be to have your protein meal, low carb protein meal right before exercising. So you would still get the fat burning and there's the potential that it might help with that tiredness, even though they didn't see any difference in performance between the three different arms, other studies have. And it might be for you that that's like what helps. And especially actually backtracking that study did mention that like studies on longer duration exercise, which it sounds like what Julian is doing, that the meal likely has more of an effect. So that might be a way to solve that, to have that protein meal beforehand. And then again, you could kind of do that trick. I just mentioned where if you were eating later on the day, kind of stopping your eating window earlier in the day. So now you're kind of just shifting around your fasting hours to keep the same amount of fasting hours, but fueling that workout with protein with a low carb meal. Other option I thought of was if you are eating dinner still, so if you're still eating like kind of late at night or dinner, and then you're waking up and doing your workout, maybe, I don't know, this is controversial, maybe eating later or eating more the night before. So really getting in your fuel, ample fuel the night before, maybe that would be enough to carry you through with that morning workout. Because again, I don't know when your normal eating window is. So it might be that you're stopping eating too early in the evening, and so by the time you're fast to workout, you're just too much into the fast. Maybe you need a shorter overnight fast for that. So that's an option as well. Basically, there's a lot of options to play around with. I'm a bad person to ask because I'm like, just don't work out early in the morning because I don't like that. But you do you and I support. So definitely let us know, Julian, if you find something that works for you. Do you have any other comments, Vanessa? No, I think that was great. Awesome. Okay, so I will go ahead and read another question. Valerie wants to know, how do you find the right fasting window, the time of day plus duration for you? And I was really excited to talk about this because I don't think Vanessa and I have talked about this on the show. I was actually going to ask you, Vanessa, how do you recommend people find the fasting window that works for them?
Vanessa Spina:
I think experimentation is really, really useful when it comes to this because you're only really going to be able to dial in what you like best with trying lots of different ways of doing it. So I remember when I first, first started intermittent fasting, you know, I read Oreo Hoffa Makers book, the warrior diet. So I tried, you know, fasting all day and just having the OMAAD, one meal a day at dinner, but I have tried every single variation. And sometimes I think I'll like a certain approach and then I'll try it and I don't like it. And then other times I think I won't like it and I end up liking it. So, you know, I thought that I would love doing breakfast and lunch and not having dinner. Did not like that at all. It didn't work for us as a family and it just was not, you know, convenient or sustainable. And then I thought that I would really not like doing breakfast and then dinner and fasting between breakfast and dinner. But I ended up liking that, you know, and sometimes, you know, I revert back to different, you know, I've actually been going back to doing one meal a day more recently and I'm really enjoying that again. So, you know, I think you have to try out different things and, you know, if you could try out the first one, you could love it and then be done or you could try it out and be like, this doesn't work for me and kind of, you know, try different variations. But it also depends on your goals and, you know, what you're wanting to to achieve. But I think the best way is just by trying different ones and then, you know, starting with something that you think lines up with one of your goals and seeing how that works for you. What about you? Didn't you say you're doing one meal?
Melanie Avalon:
meal a day now.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so recently, I've gone back to doing one meal a day and just trying that on the weekends, I usually go back to doing breakfast and dinner. And that's usually because, you know, we're all together with the family, we're having those meals together. But like Monday to Friday, I have been going back to doing my one meal a day, which is not really one meal, it's more like dinner. And then I have a protein shake a little bit later on. So it's kind of like two meals, but it feels like one meal. And I'm just really finding it works great for me during the day. In terms of like having lots of energy during the day, I end up doing my workout fasted. And, you know, my days right now are not because I'm on maternity leave, they're pretty slow. So, you know, there's I'm not doing a ton of activity. I am like breastfeeding actively, and that's going great. And, you know, it didn't affect my breastfeeding, because I still maintain my hydration, I maintain my calorie level, quite high, and, you know, eat tons of protein and nutrient dense foods. So I think, you know, that's, that's really important. But, you know, playing around with the different windows, like I was saying, that's, that's really how you find what's best for you. And it also depends on what you're optimizing for. Like when I was pregnant, you know, I wasn't able to fast all day and just have one meal a day, you know, that's, that's probably pretty obvious. But, you know, for some people, that might actually still work for them. I don't know, it depends on the person depends on the individual, most people probably wouldn't be able to fast all day while pregnant. I didn't think that I would be able to do OMAD while breastfeeding. And yet, I tried it actually kind of came about accidentally, because we all got the stomach flu. And I had no appetite for several days. And I was, I was a little bit concerned that it would affect my supply, but I maintain my hydration as taking my element the entire time, because I still I wasn't having aversions to that. So even though I didn't want to eat anything, I was able to keep my hydration up. And that really, really helped. And thankfully, it didn't affect my supply, even though I couldn't eat for a few days. And then I was like, I think maybe I'll, you know, try the OMAD and see how that goes. And it also didn't affect my supply. So you know, I think that just works well for me. It's a pattern that I really like. So yeah, that's, that's sort of what I'm doing right now.
Melanie Avalon:
for listeners if they would like to get element electrolytes, which we love. They have an unflavored one, which is clean, fast friendly, and then they have a lot of awesome flavors as well, if you would like to have around your eating window. So you can go to www .drinklmnt .com slash ifpodcast, and that will get you a free sample pack with your purchase, which is awesome. It's funny, I had COVID over the holidays as well, which is not the same thing as the flu. I do, but when I got that, all I wanted was meat, and so I actually did a carnivore stent for 10 days. Wow, that's interesting. Yeah, it was interesting that last time I got COVID, too, it was the same thing. I think I was just so exhausted, and my body was like, I just need pure nutrients, which is meat. So yeah, those were great recommendations. I love how you experiment with so many different windows. We're very different that way.
Vanessa Spina:
like this month I could be back on two meals a day or I could be doing three meals a day or yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
I've been doing the same thing for, you know, a decade, haven't budged, maybe tried something different like once. I was like, nope. My recommendation. So I actually created a quiz for this question. So if you go to Melanie Avalon .com slash if quiz, I totally forgot about this quiz completely until I read this question. I was like, oh my gosh, I forgot that I had this. I should retake it myself right now. So go there and it will make a recommendation for the type of fasting you should do. Like whether you should do like a one meal day type approach, whether you should do where you're counting the hours on the clock, like I just have different options that it'll give you. But the way I formulated it is I always kind of approach it from like, what's important to you in your life. So rather than starting with like, I'm going to do this hours of fasting, I ask questions like what meals are most important to you in general? Like I think that's a good place to start. Are you, you know, are you a breakfast person? Are you a lunch person? Are you a dinner person? Cause that's going to, first of all, that's going to show you which hours of the day you should probably be eating ish. And then beyond that, like once you kind of know the general time of the day that you want it to be, then it's like, do you, like, how do you feel with the counting and the rules aspect of it? So like, do you want to kind of not really count hours and like go by the clock? Do you want to just be more general and vague? So it's like, oh, I'm, I eat lunch and dinner or I eat dinner or I eat breakfast. Like that approach works really well for some people. Some people want like the accountability and the boundaries and they find freedom in the rules. So for them, it's like they want to count the specific hours that they're eating or on the flip side, they want to count the specific hours that they're fasting. I found that there's two types of people. Some people like to count the fasting. Some people like to count the eating. I always, when I started, I like to count the fasting hours. So I would always make sure that I went like a minimum of a certain amount of hours and then I would eat. But it's like Jen, for example, my former co -host, she always counted the eating hours. So like she, she would stop eating by a certain time, for example, and that's what made her feel the best. Whereas to me, that was like really scary because like I, not scary, but I, like when I'm eating, I don't want to like think, oh, I have to be done eating by this certain amount of time. Like I just want to feast and eat and like all the things. So there's a lot of mindset that actually goes into finding your perfect window. And then I think also you can either, you know, if you feel comfortable and think it would work for you, you can start intense with like, you know, one meal a day or a 17, 18, 19 hour fast. Some people need to go more slowly and start with like a 12 hour fast and slowly increase. So basically there's a lot of psychology that goes into it. I really think it's more psychology than maybe not more than anything else, but that's a major part in finding your right eating window. And also just know that you don't have to like get it right the first time. So like Vanessa was saying, if, if you try something and it doesn't work, that's fine. Also make sure that you give it enough time to see if it's working, especially if you're not fat adapted. So like, if you're not fat adapted and you try fasting for a day and you're like, oh, I can't do this, like give it longer. Like commit, commit to, um, I mean, it's hard to put a number on it, but you definitely want to commit to it long enough to make those adaptations and see if it actually is working for you and then tweaking accordingly. But yeah, I would definitely just start with melonyablon .com slash if quiz, and that will be a great starting point for you. You can also get my book, what, when wine, I talk all about this in there as well with much more detail. Yeah. Yeah. Any other thoughts about that, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
No, I think that was amazing. He created a quiz for it. That's so perfect for anyone listening to go and try it.
Melanie Avalon:
I should go make some more quizzes. Have you ever made a quiz?
Vanessa Spina:
I think I yeah I've done I've done them before using I think I used something called monkey survey a long time ago and it was really fun.
Melanie Avalon:
I remember when I was researching it and I remember Monkey Survey being one of the ones I was looking at, it's just so much that you have to think about the questions, how much are they weighted, how much do they affect the outcome, and if you go down this route, does it... It's like a whole thing. I was like, oh, this is like a whole thing. I was really happy with the outcome because I would take it and it works for me, it gives me what I am. I would be curious what it... Ooh, you should take it and see what it gives you, I'd be really curious. Really fun. Okay. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So a few things for listeners before we go. The show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. Those will be at ifodcast .com slash episode 360. Don't forget to go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe and or write a brief review and or update your review that you wrote in the past for the show and then send a screenshot of that review to questions at ifodcast .com so we can enter you into our giveaway to win the full AvalonX line, Vanessa's Tone Protein, as well as a special surprise from MD Logic. Yeah, you can get all of the stuff that we like at ifpodcast .com slash stuff we like. You can follow us on Instagram, we are ifodcast, I am Melanie Avalon, Vanessa is Katogenic Girl, and I am now on TikTok, Melanie Avalon Biohacker. So I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?
Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun and can't wait to record the next one with you.
Melanie Avalon:
Me too. This has been so amazing. I will talk to you next week. OK, talk to you then. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermission Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient -doctor relationship is formed. See you next week.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
STUFF WE LIKE
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LINKS
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Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
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