Welcome to Episode 365 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
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Listener Q&A: Anna - Double risk of heart disease?
Intermittent fasting ‘could raise risk of fatal heart disease
The AHA says Fasting increases cardiac risk by 91%. Are they really that stupid?
Could Intermittent Fasting Diets Raise Heart Risks?
Study suggests intermittent fasting nearly doubles risk of death from heart disease
P192 - Association Between Time-Restricted Eating and All-Cause and Cause-Specific Mortality
Is Intermittent Fasting Bad for Your Heart? Here’s What We Know.
Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 365 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
This is episode number 365 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I am here with Vanessa Spina. How are you today, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
I AM SO WELL, HOW ARE YOU, MELANIE?
Melanie Avalon:
I Am So Good.
Vanessa Spina:
You and i haven't talked in forever. I know it's so good to be back. Yeah, this is my first is this well kind of my first week officially back at work back added fully after maternity leave so I'm really excited to me back- feels good
Melanie Avalon:
You're back for like like a teaser moment and then we had some guest episodes but now it is the long call yeah I am so happy to here and actually normally we're recording especially when you were having your baby and all the things, we were way ahead. But this one actually airs pretty soon. So we can actually sort of talk about present events and it will sort of be.
Vanessa Spina:
I like that. Yeah, I like feeling that I mean, you know, with my podcast, I put it out like the next week is or within a week or two, because I just like, yeah, I love that we're a little bit more in time with everyone else.
Melanie Avalon:
Actually, I will ask you then because we are talking right before this, We sort of recently had Easter wait tell me so you said the kids were in a bike park and there were little stoplights Can you please paint a picture?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, this is amazing. So this the thing I didn't know existed But on a Friday we went to this park with all of our friends and all their kids So there's like six couples six kids and it's all boys except for two girls and the girls are babies So all the boys brought their bikes so six boys biking together and its a little bike Park that is contained It's got a playground and everything, but it's got all these streets and it has all these street like stoplights and street signs and every so they can bike around with their little bikes and their helmets and like the lights go red and green and they just almost as if they were like driving like on the road, but they're in a safe like playground like contained area and its just got all the traffic signs and stop signs and stuff but its so cute. I didn't even know that these places existed. There's a few of them around the city. It was just the most beautiful day because the sun was out. We're getting an early summer here in Prague, so it was so much fun. We just had our picnic blankets out and we had like a picnic situation with everybody and everyone has newborns. So all the newborn were like on the blanket together and all of the boys were driving their bikes around and the dads were having beers. It's like 11 in the morning, which is very common in Europe. It was a long weekend, but it was so cute and so much fun to see them all, you know, biking around together and, the red light, green light everything. I just didn't know that these places existed, but they're so much fun. Do you have pictures? Yeah, like videos and everything I want to
Melanie Avalon:
see. I mean, if I was like a little kid, that just sounds like that would have been so fun, like so fun? Oh my goodness. Isn't it funny how when you're a kid You have so much fun doing pretend versions of like boring things that adults do.
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I know. I'm always like, why do you want to do this? But he looks at it. Luca's favorite thing is getting that when the groceries get delivered, he runs the door and he like gets the bags and then he helps us unpack everything and put it away in the, you know, cupboards. He just loves it! He's like I am helping. Like when I was a kid, I remember I got a vacuum, like a pretend vacuum and it was like the best Christmas ever. or like what, you know? So yeah, it's hilarious. They just wanna be like us, I guess they just want to be grownups. It's so adorable.
Melanie Avalon:
I remember we went to this children's museum when I was little and they had this whole like grocery store, like fake grocery stores, but it was like a real grocery but completely fake. And it like the most fun thing. And then like you play the computer games where you like are pretending to like be a server or be, I can remember I had a Barbie game and you work behind the snack shop as a game. And then later, you're working behind a snack shop, hating your life later.
Vanessa Spina:
What did you do for Easter?
Melanie Avalon:
I actually just... Well, so the day before, my sister and I drove to Chattanooga to see a comedian, John Christ. Do you know him? I don't, but I love stand -up comedy. He's a Christian comedian. So he's not like... He is Christian in that he makes a lot of jokes related to Christian references I guess and he's Christian. It's funny because I was raised really Christian so like we get all the jokes. He made me one of the first jokes like he called me out in the audience. I love that. Yeah it was amazing and then I just caught up on work the next day actually. One last Easter question,
Vanessa Spina:
did you stuff the eggs with keto candy? Ah this is amazing so So one of my girlfriends here said that she, last year she had these eggs that opened up and they had tiny cars inside them. So I was like, I'm obsessed with this idea now. So, so I got all these rainbow colored eggs and then they opened and I have to find tiny cars. So like on Sunday or on Saturday after we met up with some friends who were in town, I went to the mall and like looking for these tiny car. I couldn't find them anywhere like toy store all like supermarket like there was none and Nothing would fit in the eggs And then finally as I like was about to give up near the cash register There was like these little like clear purses with tiny little toys inside them said like cars and turtles And you know Christmas tree and like of these cute like dinosaurs and they were the perfect size they were all individually wrapped and they all fit inside the egg so he did that and put them all around our place he was like in heaven and then we also did we made keto chocolates together which was really fun we like melted the chocolate together and like i do it just coconut oil 100% dark chocolate and add some stevia and we poured it into some molds they're like these little teddy bears and he loved it and I also found some like conventional looking Easter like Smarties and like these like chocolates with peanuts in them that were colored eggs that had just no sugar added in them they were just like like with stevia and stuff so it was great like he could have the full experience we did a whole bunch of other Easter stuff like planting our garden and all that and here the whole experience and it Like it really meant a lot to me for him to have the full experience of it because I do feel like sometimes, you know, like with Halloween, for example, we don't really do that as much. So although I have heard an amazing Halloween hack, which is like, they trick or treat get all the toys, sorry, get all candy. And then they trade that in for some kind of toy and it has a name to it. It's some like parents were sharing it with me on Instagram last year, but they basically trade in all their candy for like a big toy and I'm like, that sounds perfect. But it just meant a lot to me that he could participate in the Easter fun without also, you know, just like eating tons of chocolate, which I mean, some people might think that's like being overly strict or whatever, but, you know for us, like we know that a lot of these things are kind of like hijacked by like Hallmark and by, you know companies that sell chocolate and candies and everything. So, you know, it's not the best thing for them to be just like gorging on all this sugary candy at all these different holidays. So if you can do it in a way that still celebrates it and makes it fun, especially if it has meaning to you beyond candy, which obviously it is a very meaningful holiday for a lot of people, and also be able to make it a healthy experience. like I felt like so good about it. I feel like it was a big win that we got to do all of that.
Melanie Avalon:
My mom used to put in, in some of them, well, it was all conventional candy, but then she would also put it in Sacajawea coins in some them. What are those? They're like golden dollars in the US here that they released at one point. So that's an idea. You could put some interesting like coin or something. I don't know what type of money you have in Prague. Oh, okay. So like, then he could use it to go get like a present or something. That or like just because it's not that they're collectibles, but it was just cool to have like sack of Chihuahua coins, basically.
Vanessa Spina:
Like does Prague have any special currency? I mean, they use the check crowns. Like that's the currency here, which I think is really cool that they haven't adopted the euro so they still have check grounds like this.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh that is cool.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I really miss when Europe had all the individual like the Franks, the Swiss Franks. Well, you still have Swiss Franks but you had like, you know, the French Franks and you have the Lira and Italy and all that I really miss that because it was kind of magical. You know when you're a kid and you travel over here and now it's just like a hero like it kind of boring. The more everything gets homogenized, like it loses all that. Like the original culture. Well yeah, I kind of missed that but I'm glad that some countries still have it. So check for now. They're toying with the idea of adopting the euro but for now they still have check crowns.
Melanie Avalon:
I love it and speaking of keto and you didn't say fasting but all the things actually wait before that or should I do it after no I'll do this first I started using your tone device I have questions and I want to share my experience please
Vanessa Spina:
do like I'm like waiting with baited friends I know we've talked a lot about
Melanie Avalon:
it but I had not historically used it yet so Vanessa has her tone ketone meter that can measure the level of acetone breath ketones in your breath first of all super cute it's so cute it like so like well are they all the same colors and design this is the one
Vanessa Spina:
that you have, which is the reason you only got it now is because I was waiting to send you the new second generation. And so to celebrate the second -generation, it has the signature tone logo as a print, like wrapped around it, that's new. But normally, basically it looks like that without the little print on it. The diamond, or like the colored? Yes. So normally there's just one big one, one big like tone logo and then but it does have like the white pink and gold the black and rose gold in the black in gold and of course I had to send you the black -and -rose gold I know that's your favorite and yeah it's I'm so glad you
Melanie Avalon:
like that packaging the way it looks oh I do okay so the rose -gold strip I see I love that so I mean it is very easy to use I've been using it actually when I at night when i'm lying down in my sauna is it important okay because I read the instructions, I probably should reread them, but I had some questions. How important is it, maybe it does say this in the manual, that you as a person are not like moving around? That's a really interesting question. No one's ever asking that before. The reason I'm asking is because I feel like with my diet, because I follow a pretty high carb diet. So I do intermittent fasting one meal a day, but it's very high carb in that meal. What it seems like and for measuring with this device, it seemed like I barely start creating like a tiny bit of ketones like at the end of my fast the next day. And it seem to be so small and sensitive that it is seems to influenced like if I, so if were to take it around the same time but I had just like moved around a lot and like not exercise but like night is when I typically am wearing like weights and I mean and my whole circadian rhythm's backwards, but I'll be like unloading groceries and like I have on weights. Like if I were to do all of that and then do the tone device, it's like zero ketones. But if am like laying in my sauna for 30 minutes or so and I do it, that's when I register. And I'm like, oh, seems that for me being so like close on the edge, I really have to be in a sedentary state where I more easily slipping into fat burning mode, if that makes sense.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean, so what I've noticed with exercise is that usually if I take it right after exercise or during it's lower and I think, you know, your body is just like taking up all the ketones and using them and then like there's a delay and a few hours later they're higher. So it is like during the exercise usually there is a dip. But during it and right after there's a dip and then afterwards it goes, you get a bump afterwards because you're burning fat and your body's like getting more into ketosis from that. But sometimes like it depends if you are fasted or not, like if were fast and moving around and doing it might be different as well. So for you I had suggested that you read in the morning when you wake up and keep testing up until you eat I should do that I'm pretty sure it's gonna be zero it might be because you do eat high carb you might show some ketones like right before you open your eating window that's when I've been testing like in the evening right before I open that when you sauna mm -hmm yeah that what I expected I thought you would probably see like low to nothing in the morning when we wake up and then right you you know go into your first meal opening your eating window, because that's what I see like for myself too. And I eat more carbs than I used to, but I definitely still am like low carb and usually in the morning it's pretty low, like zero to two, three, four. And then if I fast until dinner, if it fasts until like evening time, I usually see cute tones like mid afternoon to evening. And, you know, then it'll be like four, five, six, seven, eight, kind of nine, ten around that. Just depends on, sometimes it will be higher. And that's, you now, correlating to like point five point six point seven point eight nine to one point zero. And then if I did a facet exercise in the morning, or if I'm moving around a lot, can be hired. It depends. But that is really cool.
Melanie Avalon:
I bet if I were to measure, like I can measure it right now. I am sure it would be zero, the highest it's gotten is like three. What was interesting was I was measuring a little bit of ketones every night and then I had a night where I didn't have any carbs but I went like super high protein, I measured the next night, and it was actually zero. I'm like, oh, that's interesting.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it can do that with really high protein for sure. Which you totally understand the mechanisms behind which is great.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Because basically, all of those amino acids are ultimately the extra converting into what is would be like glucose in the body essentially and I bet like with the longer you know if it's like a high bolus really high protein one meal a day type situation like that digestion time would be longer too so it I don't know that would be a slow drip of glucose into your stream but I bet it you know would last longer. That's what I'm imagining. Yeah then how fast you would take up carbs for example which would we processed relatively fast.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's yeah, It's less a long time.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So, oh, the other question is, it said in the instructions, like, don't breathe in before the measure.
Vanessa Spina:
So it should be a strong, vigorous blow, like as if you were blowing up a balloon, you know, if your inflating a balloon. It is like pretty strong. You shouldn't go like like and then breathe out, it's just more like a normal breath. Like you don't take a deep breath as if you're gonna hold your breath, you know, those are kind of like exaggerated breaths, more just like normal breaths that you would just write before when it is counting down. You're just breathing normally and then because sometimes people will like overly take in too much of a breath and they'll see you know the numbers will be affected by that. But what's really interesting like the acetone is at the bottom of the lungs so that's why you want to take in like too deep of a breath. But if you take a reading, and then you take reading a minute later, every single time it'll be lower because you've just breathed out some of the acetone. And so there's less there. Like so that's why we usually say to like wait, you know, a while before you do the next one. Because if you test every minute, for like 10 minutes, it's just going to go down, down down.
Melanie Avalon:
That is interesting. Okay, that makes sense about the breath, I thought that was what you were saying, but then I started over analyzing. Then I was like, I don't know how to like not breathe in right before the I was Yeah, it's been like a journey.
Vanessa Spina:
But like people, you know, It's hard to explain. Like I really, I have some videos out there and I I really should send them out every time people you know order one because like people will send me videos sometimes and like some people will just like there was one person who sent me a video and they just went like and stopped like it was just It's like the tiniest breath. And I was like, no, you have to hold. Breathe the whole, like when it starts beeping, you breathe the full time, like exhale the entire time until the beep stops. And then you see the number, which is, on the screen, it says blow. Like it keeps saying blow,
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, It says, blow? Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
But you can't see it, right?
Melanie Avalon:
Well, I'm getting flashbacks right now because I like holding up to my mouth and trying to see into the mirror. Wasn't there a little thing we have when we were little where you would like look into it and it had mirrors in it and I would let you see like behind you or something. Am I making that up? Do you remember that?
Vanessa Spina:
It's like sounds familiar, but I don't know what.
Melanie Avalon:
Like we would make it.
Vanessa Spina:
We would Make it with like a cardboard box. That I remember something like that for looking at the eclipse.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yes, which speaking of which, speaking of I was going to ask you about that. Is it going over Prague next week? Oh I got to look out for that it depends on the time.
Vanessa Spina:
I'm like, it's in the middle of the night here.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh yeah, you're right. I think it was probably just in US. I probably made a really like blonde statement about, I don't really know how it works.
Vanessa Spina:
You can make one of those things for fun for nostalgia.
Melanie Avalon:
I know there's gonna be a partial eclipse that we can see here, and so I just ordered on Amazon glasses, but I realize it is going to be during my gynecologist appointment. So I do not know if I am gonna like listen, then can we pause this for a second? I have to go look at the eclipse. I like, I to have go right now. I'll be getting a pap smear. I will have my glasses on my face for like I Have to Go right Now. Yeah, good for you. Good for your priorities. I literally thought about almost rescheduling that appointment for that purpose. Have you seen an eclipse?
Vanessa Spina:
Not recently, but I remember seeing a lot when I was growing up and like making those boxes so that I can see it.
Melanie Avalon:
I'm trying to remember about the boxes.
Vanessa Spina:
I am going to make one with Luca for next week if it's in our time zone. It doesn't use, does it use mirrors? Yeah, I think there's mirrors inside and it like a long, it is like long like L shape.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh wow.
Vanessa Spina:
And it okay to look at the mirror? So yeah, you can look the reflection of it through the mirrors, but you cannot look directly which I had always found so weird that there's this giant ball of fire in our sky. We can't look at it. It's so weirder.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's a that is a very weird concept.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
So I give her your eyes. There's like a whole group of people that do I'm not I probably shouldn't say this because I don't want to encourage it, but there is like, a group, of People that look at the sun every day.
Vanessa Spina:
I was just gonna bring it up. But then I And I was like, we're going to go on another test.
Melanie Avalon:
I also don't want, like I don' t want impressionable young minds listening and going and looking at the sun. Sun gazers, yeah. My friend does that. I'm like oh, that sounds, I' m not sure about that, I m Not sure.
Vanessa Spina:
Oh my goodness. Yeah, at sunrise, it's just red light, you know, they do it, I think really early in the morning, maybe that's, I have to look into it more now that I know more about wavelengths and light and stuff because I think I saw it like 10 years ago or something.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay, one last solar phenomena thing. Wait, okay, so going to the beach, did you ever see the green flash? Mm -hmm. Have you heard of it? I thinks so, but I had no idea what it is. I actually, oh, it's even in Pirates of the Caribbean, they have a reference to it. The boat has to like, man, I haven't watched those movies in forever. There's like something that only happens during the green flash. So that thing has haunted me since I was a child because we used to always go to the beach growing up. There was even a restaurant called the Green Flash. Apparently, there's this moment when the sun dips below the horizon and if you are looking at the exact right moment, there is a green Flash, I have never seen this green flashback. Maybe you can look it up on YouTube or something. Oh, yeah, probably I should look it up now that there's more I wonder if you can even capture it might not be captureable on Yeah, that's a good point. Apparently, it's like so fast. I don't know so things that haunt me Yeah. So how can people get your tone device?
Vanessa Spina:
Oh Thank you. Thank You for you know Testing with it and just having fun with and also for sharing it on the podcast It's really nice of you and anyone wants to check it out. You can do so at ketogenic girl calm and And I just launched the new second generation of the tone, which has a new airway mold. And it's very sensitive, as Melanie was talking about, like it'll register even like 0 .3 millimolar ketones on your breath. It's a very, very sensative. So even if you are doing high carb, if doing enough fasting, you can usually register some ketone. Yeah, it is fun to try different things, different eating windows, and different lengths of fast, which actually we have a question about today. If we will be answering that one, I'm not sure either on today or next episode, but yeah, you can check it out at ketogenicgirl .com. Thanks for asking. Thanks.
Melanie Avalon:
You're welcome. I have a curveball. I did it while you were talking. I muted my, do you know what it said? It's the highest ketones I've had. That doesn't make any sense. Whoa. I had to think about this. I said eight. Okay.
Vanessa Spina:
And it's like 2 p .m. for you.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes. 151. one.
Vanessa Spina:
And you're fasted.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes, but I eat late. So we haven't been fast that long. And every time I take it way later, like tonight, it's been lower. I've never received an eight.
Vanessa Spina:
I think it, It's a reasonable for you to get in like a 0 .8 millimolar if you are in a fast state. And it is 8. No, no. It is eight, eight? That is 0 ,8.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, they are all point. Oh they're point? Okay, got you. My bad.
Vanessa Spina:
Like I have 8 .0 millimolar. Okay, so it goes up to, what's the range? The range is 0 to 99. So basically 99- 0 .99? So 0 -99. So if you see a 99 on there, that would be equivalent to 9 .9 milli -molar so you just add 10. So this said light fat burning.
Melanie Avalon:
That's 0 ,8?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so I usually consider light fat burning to be around like 0 .4, 0 ,5 up to 1 millimolar ketones and then above, like, above 1 .0 or above 10 on the tone device, usually in a fat -burning state. But that makes sense for me mid -afternoon facet to have 0.,8 millimeter ketone.
Melanie Avalon:
It's just weird because later into my fast, like I said, it's always much lower.
Vanessa Spina:
It might be higher today, depending on what you ate the day before. I know you're pretty consistent with what you eat, but it can depend on your activity levels, on you sleep. So I would test again later like right before you break your fast and yeah text me the number let me know what it shows but it probably will be eight or higher if that's what you're
Melanie Avalon:
saying. So I'm gonna make a prediction just because I eat so similarly and I've been taking so many measurements I am gonna predict it's gonna be what I normally see that it is gonna back to like 0 or 0 .1 or 2 .3 tonight.
Vanessa Spina:
Okay, let me know. I will. But remember, they can affect it like brushing your teeth, things you drink. So depending on when you get things in your environment, sometimes, like if there's cleaning products that can effect it, alcohol definitely affects it. But I know you're really consistent with your routines and things. But always say like the most accurate measurement is the one right after you wake up, because you've been in the fasted state and then before brushing your teeth because that can cause a false positive and certain breath gases from different things that you eat can cause false positives. So oh, wait a minute.
Melanie Avalon:
So it could be from like my mouthwash, but there's no alcohol in my mouthes.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it would sometimes it doesn't matter. It's just the minty flavors. We've had that before with alcohol it shows like if you use mouthwash with alcohol, it would show 99. Usually it chose like the highest number, highest possible number on there. And then there's things like different carbs can cause fermentation or different foods can cause fermentation in the gut. So sometimes those come out as breath gases, as like Methane, CO2, that can also cause higher numbers, but to me, an 8 seems like it makes sense for where you're at in the day. But just text me later and let me know. Maybe we'll share on the next episode what it ended up being.
Melanie Avalon:
I will. Such a teaser. Oh my goodness. Okay. Quick announcement, friends. Quick pivot. So if you guys are enjoying the show, we are doing a giveaway for friends. We've been running it a little bit casually, but this is the last month that you can enter for reals. So for the month of April, then it will be kaput, no more, so enter now. Basically, if your enjoying this show the Apple podcast reviews really, really help support it way more than most people realize. So if you go and write a Apple podcast review, preferably five stars if you feel open to it, but of course share your honest thoughts. If you write a review there and or if your already wrote a review in the past if, you can update it so that it will pop to the top to share what you are enjoying about the show or any feedback you may have and then send a screenshot of that review to questions at ifpodcast .com. We will will enter you into a giveaway where we are giving away the entire avionics line. So my seropeptase, which is a proteolytic enzyme that you take in the fasted state that can actually help catalyze your fast and that it can help breaking down proteins, sort of like autophagy, it could help with inflammation, brain fog, allergies, if you have allergies during allergy season right now, take serapeptace, I promise you it is the solution to that. So that, my two magnesiums, I have one for the body called magnesium 8, one for brain called magnesium nightcap. You also get my berberine, which is wonderful for blood sugar glycemic control. So you can take that during your fast and or before meals to help reduce blood sugar levels and all of that. It also helps with cholesterol by the way. So get all that and you will get Vanessa's tone protein. Would you like to talk about your tone protein?
Vanessa Spina:
I would love to talk about tone protein. I am addicted to it personally. A lot of people are absolutely loving it. You can check out the reviews on MD Logics website, but people look forward to as a treat every single day. And the fact that it's helping you build muscle and get toned and get lean, I think is amazing. It's one of the cleanest, if not the clearest whey protein isolates on the market. And it just pure, clean, whey protein, isolate, monk fruit, vanilla, bean flavoring, and we have some organic gums in there as well because we didn't want to use seed oils like the sunflower lechesin, which is in a lot of protein powders. And yeah, what's amazing about it is it's also enhanced with leucine. So it helps you to build muscle and initiate muscle protein synthesis with every serving And you don't have to take as large a serving as you would with other protein powders. So yeah, thanks for asking about it.
Melanie Avalon:
So friends will get that and then you also will a surprise supplement from empty logic. So it's really like a grab bag of goodies. You do not want to miss it and it is so easy to enter. Just go to Apple Podcasts. Oh, subscribe while you're there. Subscribe, write a brief review and or update your current review to what you are enjoying about the show and email a screenshot of that to questions at iapodcast .com and we will enter you. So, okay, fasting related things. We cannot not talk about this new intermittent fasting study that has come out. And we did get a question about it, which was good because it's always nice to frame it in light of a listener.
Vanessa Spina:
I'm so glad I saw it on the agenda.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I just can't even with this study. Vanessa, would you like to read the question from Anna?
Vanessa Spina:
Yes. So Anna sent us a question and she says, subject is double risk of heart disease? Hi, I've been fasting for a few years. And when I got started, I listened through your entire back catalog of episodes. One or two years later, I listen through all of your episodes again. So thank you, I learned a lot from you. Today I heard on the BBC News that intermittent fasting with an eight -hour window could double the risk of cardiovascular disease. They talk about it at 6 .50 minutes here with a link to the clip and here is the article that they are referring to which is a Times UK article. I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say about the original research article I've gotten my boyfriend on intermittent fasting bandwagon. And he has 58 and has heart disease in his family, although he is slim and healthy. As you can understand, I got a little worried when I heard the news. If you discuss it on your show, i'd be grateful. Kind regards, Anna." And then, yeah, we have some links
Melanie Avalon:
here. Yeah, well put some link in the show notes. We'll put the links that Anna sent. We also have a link about Dr. Jason Fung's analysis. I tried to read all of what he wrote, but it was behind a paywall, so I couldn't read all of it.
Vanessa Spina:
I even signed up for Medium, and then it was like, now you can also pay for an account. And I was, like OK.
Melanie Avalon:
I know. I said, OK, well. And then we'll put a link to some US news things about it, so what this is referring to, this was all over the news. It's like these types of situations where I do wish we released right after so that we could talk about right in the moment that it's happening. But it's based on a presentation that was made, I think, in Chicago. There's only the abstract available, so we'll put a link to that in the show notes. It's published in The American Heart Association's Epidemiology, Prevention, Lifestyle, and Cardiometabolic Health Journal. And the title is Association Between Time -Restricted Eating and All Cause and Cause -Specific Mortality. I just—I mean, read a lot of studies. I don't, I do not recall the last time I read a study that it feels like a joke, the way it was set up. It's just your goal, it's laughable. I didn't even know, like, is this April Fool's? Yeah,
Vanessa Spina:
and that was the title of Dr. Jason Fung's article, he's like do they actually think we are this dumb?
Melanie Avalon:
And so I know this is like the lead up to what they did, but I'm like but what is the purpose? It's so poorly constructed that I'm like, is there a nefarious agenda here to take down intermittent fasting?
Vanessa Spina:
I don't know for sure.
Melanie Avalon:
I just don t understand. Okay, so listeners, let me tell you how they set this up and I'll just let you do your own thinking on it for a little bit. So again, that's like the first red flag is we don d even have the full thing. So all we can read is the abstract. And I don't just mean me, like, behind paywalls. Like, it's not published. So all there is is the abstract. So basically what they did was they had, how many people was it? 20 ,078 adults followed for, let's see how many years, from 2003 to 2018. So 15 years. And then, and they checked mortality status in December of 2019 to make their conclusions about how the people were eating and if they, how they died, if the died. The way they decided what these people we're eating for 15 years was twice they asked them on two different occasions what they ate for the past 24 hours and then they averaged that together and decided that's how these people ate for 15 years. I'm just gonna let that sink in for a second. So imagine, dear friends, in the last 15, years that somebody came up to you at two different times and asked you, what did you eat for the last 24 hours and you told them and then they counted up how many hours you ate the day before and they added together those two days and then decided that for 15 years that's how you ate. I mic drop.
Vanessa Spina:
It's just unreal. I can't even. This is like something that my two -year -old would say or do as like a silly game or something. Like, it just doesn't make any sense that this is supposed to be serious science.
Melanie Avalon:
It's like not even worth reading the conclusions.
Vanessa Spina:
I mean, I will. No, no, like, why should we give any weight to something that is so preposterous? And that's what I'm saying, that it's a toddler level science, and I just am completely baffled by it. And it's crazy that they can take that and then they can make that into an international news story that is presented by all the top sort of media that people give a lot of serious weight to. People listen to the BBC and all these different news outlets because they think that their reporting on solid scientific facts. So Dr. Peter T, and I know you saw his response, but like he had an amazing response to it and you know he's basically saying that like how are we supposed to even I have to find his actual quote because it was so good I'm always here for a Peter quote yeah so my I was telling you my mom had just finally started doing intermittent fasting and she's doing it with my dad and we were visiting them in Spain and then this article came out. I was like, Are you kidding me? I finally got her, you know, she finally started doing this. He he basically said that the analysis was done under the very weak assumption that that completion of two food recall surveys was sufficient data to represent participants, normal eating patterns, both eating duration and total energy intake for the eight years. He said that it's unfortunate that results such as these are being used to scare people away from time -restricted eating which is a proven way to reduce energy intake and lose weight, aside from all the other incredible benefits you know that we've noticed on metabolic health. I'm adding that in. he says previous research has already supported the notion that how many calories you eat matters more than when you eat them. This is yet another nutritional study that affirms my disappointment in the field, not because the topic is unworthy of research, but because of the willingness to draw sensational conclusions from flawed data. And I was like, yeah, resounding applause, standing ovation there because it's exactly, you know, exactly represent my feelings like sensationalizing BS, like science is like the lowest of the low to me although there was a study that came out a month ago I think in the Washington Post wrote about how pasta is really good for your health and it turns out it was sponsored by like Bertoli pasta or something which like is basically worse than an ad because you're presenting you are presenting a paid ad as a scientific study and you not disclosing that. And so people are getting that information and will believe it because they have, they think that, you know, Washington Post is a credible news outlet. But the more and more people, I think, are starting to see through some of this, the moment where people are going to the actual studies and seeing what it is, because it takes two seconds. Like when my mom asked me about it, I told her and she was like, Oh, that's total propaganda. Like, yeah. But most people don't have the time to go and research that stuff, so it's very disappointing for people like us or listeners of this podcast, or for Anne who wrote in who has serious concerns about these kind of things, and for good reason, is being misled by this kind of sensationalism.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, no, thank you for all that and reading that quote. And I'll comment because he said the eight years and I was saying 15. So basically, to clarify about that, it was like the data inclusion period of everything was 2003 to 2018. They got the two interviews and then it was an eight -year follow -up they were looking at. That's the clarification there. That why I said one number and he's said a different number. But what's interesting about it is, so even... Okay, a few little things. Even if it It was like they were actually following up with the people regularly. So even if we knew that that's actually how they we're eating kind of consistently, certain eating windows, which by the way, side note, a lot of people don't follow the same, even if they're doing intermittent fasting, don t follow it consistently for that amount of time with same windows. It just literally is not real life. But even it was, these people were following that same window and that data was correct, correct, which is probably not. Even then, it would be causation correlation. And what I find interesting about that, what I could read, a lot of people are talking about this, but they're not actually, because I was trying to read all the different news articles on it, where people were talking about it. And a lotta people who are deconstructing it are talking about other things about why it might be flawed, like the causation correlation, the beginning of what I could from Dr. Jason Fong. He was talking about the causation -correlation. But I just think, going back full stop, it's just so poorly set up that that doesn't even matter. It's not even testing anything, is my thought. It is like,
Vanessa Spina:
not ever... That's the thing. You talked about the set -up of it. We talked a lot about that and how poor that was, but taking that aside, the suggestion that containing your eating to restricting your reading window every day and basically not snacking would be bad for you. Even just that alone, it's like, like humans are not meant to be eating perpetually while we're awake. And it doesn't take a lot of, you know, even just basic logic to understand that if you don't snack and you are eating for less time during the day, that that's going to be good for. You're going to have digestive rest. You are going give your body a chance to use up the energy that you are consuming and you are not going over eat. It's just very basic principles of I think wellness and health and to suggest that doing that. It is like if a study came out saying that people who exercise more were likely to die earlier. It just doesn't add up. Even the suggestion of it doesn�t add. up. So there's like multiple aspects of it that are totally nonsensical.
Melanie Avalon:
It's I know, I will read the conclusion because so what they concluded, because I guess we haven't actually even said what They concluded. They conclude that people who are doing time restricted eating with eating durations of less than eight hours, were significantly associated with a higher risk of cardiovascular mortality and the general population as well and people with cardiovascular disease or cancer, these findings do not support long -term use of 16 -8 time -restricted eating for preventing cardiovascular death. And to recap, this is based on asking people on two different days what they ate the day before, averaging that together, and applying that to basically a 15 -year span, which is ridiculous.
Vanessa Spina:
I mean, when Dr. Sachin Panda first did these studies on time restricted eating, which made it what it is today, you know, they found incredible results like they found results where you could basically eat the same amount in two different groups and you can have people just contain their eating window like they would have these super obese metabolically dysregulated mice or rodents and that they could eat this amount of calories just condensing their eating windows and they had all these metabolic health improvements and Metabolic health is highly connected to our cardiovascular health. So those studies were so astonishing and amazing, they were repeated and tested over and over again all over the world at different universities, different labs, because they were astonishing. And so, you know, to suggest that all of that is not tested and not proven, also, I think, you know is, it's quite a claim to be making. And even if you, so Dr. Jason Fung was saying like the only way to prove causation is to do randomized controlled studies. And we know that like placebo controlled RCTs are the gold standard. So you would have to put, you know, people into randomized control trials. You'd have put people randomly into two different groups where people basically ate all day. and another group ate within an eight -hour window and then show that over time, the group that was eating all day long had better cardiovascular health than the group that is containing their eating eight hours. Like you would have to do that kind of a study in order to prove it, but I mean I would not put my money on that being the outcome, to say the least, it's just sad when this happens because it seems like a few times a year, even more than that, and actually, your former co -host, Jin and I were talking about this on my podcast a couple of months ago, she was saying that she constantly has to do damage control in her group because one of these sensationalized headlines will come out and you know people really get scared and upset especially because you start hearing from it from your colleagues and your neighbors and everyone who knows that you do intermittent fasting. Did you hear about this and it's I mean she said she just concludes it it is clickbait. You know it s a way to get people to click on the articles to read things is to sensationalize things and its sad and disappointing that, you live in it in this kind of time where this kindof sensationalism is happening.
Melanie Avalon:
I can't agree more and that's why, I mean, I would almost, we know that like dietary recall studies are pretty, you know, not valid data anyways, but I would, almost this would still be a really poorly set up study, but i would think it would even be better rather than ask people on two random days what they ate the day before, average it together, assume that is the way they eat perpetually, which is just ridiculous. I would rather ask the people how do you feel like you normally eat out of these different options of like fasting like I feel Like that would even give a better and that'd be awful to that wouldn't be a good setup. But that would be better than just picking two random days. Because like you could pick any two days in your life and it's not necessarily reflective of how you eat normally. And goodness knows not for years and years. Why are they assuming for eight years that the people didn't change their eating window? Where is that assumption? Yeah, I mean, that's another good point. Like, do they think these people did it make any changes? So yeah, but not to get conspiratorial, but I just don't know. I think, these researchers are smart. I want to be in that room when they set up this study. Like who greenlit that? Who said that this actually makes sense?
Vanessa Spina:
So one story I can share. So several years ago, when keto was becoming extremely popular, there were these headlines that would come out, you know, again, very similar to this a few times a year. And it was like, it, was always like really hard to understand why would these sort of like hit pieces come up? And so there was this one that came out on ketos. It was published in like 16 different news outlets and it was this article about how if you do keto, you're going to get something called ketocrotch, which is apparently you are going start giving off like a certain odor and your coworkers and friends are going notice it and so long ago it's hard to remember like all the details of it, but it was actually a PR firm that wrote, created this article, and they created this article because Weight Watchers was one of their clients, and they did not want people to be doing keto. So some of these headlines, like, I don't think that they were referencing a study in this case, but some of these big like hit pieces, they actually are engineered from people who don t want want people to be doing these diets or doing these life cells. And it sounds conspiratorial, right? Could it really be that they're doing this? And I'm not sure if that's the case with this one, but I definitely know that some of the headlines we see are being put out intentionally to mislead people. It's like a form of not misinformation, but disinformation. It is intentionally deceptive. And it's to make people stay away from these types of lifestyles and approaches that make them healthier and not need to depend on other products and services. I have seen some really interesting research come out of China, so it is hard to say. I've seen really some interesting like on breath acetone and I don't know if that's factor or not, but to me it's interesting that it was just a presentation. So the fact that all these news outlets are making this a headline without it even being a published study, I think is also like a really big thing that should make people question what they're saying. And it really is disheartening because you would think that these media outlets would only publish really valid peer -reviewed studies, studies that have been through that review process where they're critiqued by their peers, et cetera.
Melanie Avalon:
I was actually surprised that, because I'm looking at the headlines, and again because it is so poorly set up, I am surprised nobody took a sensationalized approach with the headline to be like, do people realize how crazy this is? The New York Times article was pretty good though. So it deconstructed it this way. So yes, so we'll put links to this in the show notes so people can form their own opinions. But I think this was really, really helpful and valid information to share. And I hope people, you know, just keep an open eye, keep a discerning look when you're reading the headlines about anything, about intermittent fasting, anything health -related, and you, know go and look at what it's based on and what's actually behind all of it. So, well, this has been super amazing, it's so good to be recording again with Vanessa and listeners. If you would like to submit your own questions to the show, you can directly email questions at iapodcast .com or you could go to iphodcast. com and you submit questions there. You can get these show notes for today's show at iapodcast dot com slash episode 365. brief reminder that you can enter our epic giveaway. Just go to Apple Podcasts, write a review and or update your review, just update it and send a screenshot of that to questions at iapodcast .com and we will, the winner, will receive the entire Avalonix supplement line. You'll receive Vanessa's tone protein and you will received something from MD Logic. So really excited about that and yeah I I think that is all the things. Anything from you Vanessa before we go?
Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun talking about this crazy study, quote unquote study and catching up with you and I can't wait for the next episode.
Melanie Avalon:
Me too, I will talk to you next week.
Vanessa Spina:
Okay, talk you then. Bye. Bye
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
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