Welcome to Episode 477 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.
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TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon
Welcome to Episode 477 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.
I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What, When, Wine. Lose weight and feel great with paleo-style meals, intermittent fasting, and wine. And I'm joined by my co-hosts, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with B.C. For more on us, check out MelanieAvalon.com and BarryConradOfficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions at iapodcast.com or by going to iapodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 477 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. I'm here with Barry Conrad. Barry, how are you today?
Barry Conrad
Hey, Mel. Hey, everyone. I'm doing great. Today has been a really, really great day.
I, after many, many months of, well, not many, many, but many weeks of hunting, I finally kicked off banter with BC here in New York City.
Melanie Avalon
Oh my gosh, congratulations!
Barry Conrad
Thanks. So because for me, I guess Melanie already knows this, but being Aussie, it was, it was super important for me to like keep that Aussie connection.
So I was sort of one of the partner with the Aussie owned hospitality group. And so I did, like I did back in Sydney. So I've teamed up with this amazing players called parched HG. So they have like Daintree and, and Ireland co and it was actually founded by another Barry, Barry dry. So that's really good. And yeah, I'm just so excited. They, they have something called the Daintree rooftop. Melanie, I'm going to send it to you right now so you can see what I mean.
Melanie Avalon
The what rooftop?
Barry Conrad
Daintree i'm sending it to you right now you have to see this photo because this is the view. Okay one two three and if you look at the gallery that first photo with the empire state like it's just that's the backdrop so it's just amazing.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, wait, so you filmed there?
Barry Conrad
So film in there, which is awesome. So did the first episode this morning and it's so beautiful, so lush, and it kind of feels like that like escape from middle of Manhattan with this incredible view. And I couldn't have, you know, I couldn't have won a better, more iconic space. So I'm really, really excited. It's taken so long, but it's just, I'm so glad, you know, just yeah, stoked.
Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, congratulations. So are they, is it like a partnership collaboration where they let you film there and you are promoting them in the show?
Barry Conrad
Yes, so sort of like how I, well, like I did in Sydney as well, the same sort of thing. So I'm excited. Wow.
Melanie Avalon
This is awesome. Now you've got me brainstorming.
I'm like, hmm, maybe I should reach out to locations to get filming locations for projects to collaborate with. Congratulations. Who was the first guest?
Barry Conrad
So the first guest was actually fittingly an Australian. Her name is Kyla Bartholomew and she is currently on chess on Broadway and she did Hamilton on Broadway. Yeah, she's amazing. And Mel, like, I don't know if you probably get this all the time, but you meet someone that has like a billion mutual friends with you, but you never met them until this point. So that was her today.
Like I'd known about her. I'm best friends with friends of hers. So we've been at same after parties, just never met. And now we got to break bread literally on the show and she was so inspiring. Oh my goodness.
Melanie Avalon
And I love, I mean, both of the shows you mentioned, I love chess and I love, wait, was she in it with Josh Groban? Or she's in it now?
Barry Conrad
She's in it now with Leah Michelle. Yeah, it's a mate like, yeah, she's incredible. She's like a super swing as well, yeah.
Melanie Avalon
Aaron, what's his name is in it right now?
Barry Conrad
Yes, exactly. That's the guy.
Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness, he is one of my favorite Broadway actors of all time.
Barry Conrad
He's really good. Maybe he might be on the show, we'll see. Yeah, we'll see, but yeah, she was amazing.
Melanie Avalon
I would literally, I would fly up there for it.
Barry Conrad
be there like just to be there in the
Melanie Avalon
I'll be, I mean, are you doing like, cause I know when you were doing filming in Australia, you would have people in the background who are like actually eating. So when you film there, are you, is it closed or are people there?
Barry Conrad
It's closed. I mean, for the first episode, it was closed because it's like it's literally not open yet for the day.
But I mean, you could still be there just having a cocktail off camera or on camera.
Melanie Avalon
I'll just be like in the background, like the one person in the background having some wine except not because it's during the day. What's it called? Oh, what's it called? When a cameo.
Barry Conrad
A cameo, yeah. So I will say that today I didn't fast because I, because the show, the only availability we have is in the mornings on Mondays.
So, which is totally fine, but it's an example of, I guess, for our listeners flexible, being flexible with your windows. So today I started eating this morning, like 10 AM.
Melanie Avalon
It's a perfect example of not letting your fasting window negatively impact on your actual
Barry Conrad
life. And then tomorrow we just jump back into the regular. No, no sweat.
Melanie Avalon
Do you feel any less like on point when you've eaten earlier?
Barry Conrad
It's really weird, but I think because this sort of, I did this in Sydney as well, because we'd have shows from like 12 or 1pm, so it was always not my traditional window. I'm just kind of used to it.
It sort of doesn't count. I'm just like, that's just like a show day. It doesn't really bother me at all. I don't really feel any different.
Melanie Avalon
awesome possum. That's how we're different. I like go into a coma. I'm like not productive if I eat earlier. It's not good.
I was actually talking with somebody two days ago. I was explaining because I was going to meet friends for a show appropriately enough and they were getting dinner before. So I joined like a little bit later and just got drinks rather than dinner. And I was explaining why. And I was explaining that once I have my window and eat, then I'm kind of just like lethargic and I want to go to bed. And he was like, are you sure you're not like diabetic? And I was like, no, I'm not. I'm not diabetic, but I can see how it could be confusing because that is also like also a sign of like poor blood sugar regulation is, you know, eating and then getting like tired or not being able to perform. But it's a different thing.
It's because I do my like one intense meal every night and my body is circadianly and trained with it. And it's like bedtime and I also eat like a massive feast. So yeah.
Barry Conrad
I will say, Mel, I do, I do feel more relaxed, like, you know, you, that relaxed sort of stay, and I didn't want to do any admin stuff. I had to learn stuff for a self tape. I didn't necessarily feel as like, yeah, let's do stuff, but you just, you just have to switch gears and just go with it. You know, I haven't snacked to anything throughout the day, which is good.
Melanie Avalon
Are you gonna eat again or is that your meal?
Barry Conrad
I ate again just before we started recording. It had like a whole bunch of beef, rice, vegetables. It was delicious.
Melanie Avalon
But not again after this. Probably not. Well, how can people, so is it still called Bantor with BC and everything?
Barry Conrad
It's still called Banter with BC. And by the time this airs, the new season will be out. So you can find it on YouTube, Apple Music, Spotify, my Instagram page. It's, yeah, it's a lot of fun.
You get to actually watch us eat and drink and connect with, I connect with leaders in culture and entertainment and it's really fun and inspiring. So check it out, Banter with BC.
Melanie Avalon
Awesome. Well, congratulations again.
So very exciting. What about you? I am good. So I wanted to tell you about one of the products of one of our sponsors that I am obsessed with. Tell me. Which you already know, but I'm going to actually tell you in real time. And this is actually a big deal for this show because I think, do you remember the G.O.A.T. mattress story?
Barry Conrad
No, but tell me.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, so I've had an obsession. Well, first of all, sleep is very important. We talk about sleep all the time. And most people spend a third of their lives asleep. So that means like a third of your life is spent on a mattress. So needless to say, your mattress is very important for your health and wellness, like so important.
And I think people, I don't know, people might try to like save on a mattress or skim on a mattress, but it's like, literally like a third of your life during the time that you're, that you're like recovering and, you know, your immune system is working and you need to be getting the best state to be in is spent on a mattress. So this, the goat mattress story, this hearkens back to early in this show, but it was really important to me. I was researching about all of the toxins that are in a lot of modern mattresses. Like they can be really bad, like not just like off gassing when you first get it, but like toxic fiberglass and you know, materials that have endocrine disruptors and it's just not good. So way back in the day, like probably 2017 or so, I found a natural mattress back then it was called, I don't even remember the name of the brand, but the reason I bought it was because it was made with like no fiberglass, no flame protectants or no like toxic flame protectants. And instead it used all natural like goat fur. So this is not ringing a bell, this or goat hair.
Barry Conrad
Actually, yeah, it actually does ring a bell.
Melanie Avalon
The story was that I got that mattress and then it literally smelled like goats and the whole first night I dreamed all about goats. We affectionately call it the goat mattress on this show. The goat mattress is no longer with us because I got a new mattress and I'm really excited about it.
The brand is Lisa and they have a lot of options for mattresses. You can go and take a sleep quiz and they have ones for if you sleep hot and different comfort levels and all the things. The one though that I am advocating for and the one that I got is they actually partnered with West Elm for it. It's their Lisa plus West Elm natural hybrid mattress and it's the one that they made to be super non-toxic. The majority of their mattresses, they're really good with what they're doing but this is the one that's all the things. For example, it's like eight layers and then multiple of the layers are I'll just tell you. The top layer is 100% organic cotton cover. Then there's a New Zealand wool top that is global organic textile standard certified. Go New Zealand. Oh yeah. 100% and then there's a memory foam layer that is Serti Pure US certified, a natural latex layer that is also that global organic latex certified and then there's a comfort foam layer, a core support foam layer and a high density base support foam and they are all that Serti Pure US certified and then there's like a spring system. But the entire product, that Serti Pure US certification helps with a lot of the toxins and things like that and then the entire product is Green Guard gold certified which means it's certified for low chemical emissions. It has a chemical free, fiberglass free, fire barrier. It's designed and assembled in the USA. To give more information about the Serti Pure US certification, that means it's made without ozone depleters, no PBDE flame retardants, no heavy metals, no formaldehyde, low VOC emissions. And then the Green Guard, they rigorously test for 360 volatile organic compounds to make sure it's free from harmful chemicals. Yeah, so it's basically all about having a healthy, safe mattress and so again, I ordered it for the safety. I was like, I just hope it feels well because I'm going here for the safety, non-toxic aspect of it. Oh my goodness, I am... Okay, wait, actually, really quick tangent, I am so happy. So a few things, a few things here. One, I was really stressed because the idea of getting rid of my old mattress, I don't know, I just like not stressed emotionally. I am kind of sad about that, but not really, but like physically, it is so hard to like deal with mattresses. Not easy. So thankfully, Lisa, they have like a system where they will come in and install your mattress and get rid of your old one. Easy breezy.
Barry Conrad
What? That's awesome.
Melanie Avalon
they did that for me. So it comes in a box. So it gets delivered.
Well, actually, let me backtrack. You can set it up for them to do that when you order it, which is what I should have done, but we didn't. So you can also add it on after the fact. So we did that and then basically they sent the mattress, it was in a box and then the people came and they like set it up for me, got rid of my old one. But I had a huge decision. Okay, so your bed, how high off the floor is it?
Barry Conrad
maybe just a little bit above my knee, maybe like, I don't know, maybe my upper thigh kind of thing, sort of.
Melanie Avalon
Probably like a normal bed, probably.
Barry Conrad
Yeah.
Melanie Avalon
I need more storage space in my apartment and also I was kind of alert by the idea of like a really high bed. So I got a new bed frame that's like very tall. So now I have to like jump up onto my bed. It's like being a little kid. Remember like when you're a little kid and like it's hard to get up onto the bed.
Barry Conrad
I need to see a visual of this. This is awesome.
Melanie Avalon
It's so high, it's so great. And I can store so much stuff under it. I'm literally so happy.
Well, that's good. Yeah, it's really fun. Except I have to literally, like I said, hop in and out of it. But the actual mattress, and I promise I'll stop talking about it, but it feels so good. It's so great. I'm so happy. Yeah. Every night now, I'm just like so happy.
Barry Conrad
Yeah. Cause you were saying before as well, like what Barry, what I'm going to do with my old mattress, it's so hard to get rid of it as well.
And I'm glad that's so seamless the way they do it at least. So that's awesome.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it was super easy. And it feels so good. So I highly, highly recommend, again, it's called Lisa West Elm Natural Hybrid Mattress. And we do have a link for listeners. So if you go to lisa.com, which is l-e-e-s-a.com and use the coupon code IF podcast, you will get, and this changes around a little bit, but I think when this airs, it will be 25% off select mattresses plus an extra $350 off with the code IF podcast. So lisa.com, L-e-e-s-a.com, promo code IF podcast for 25% off select mattresses plus an extra $350 off. So yeah, friends, check it out.
And like I said, they have other mattresses as well, but I'm really, really liking this natural, natural one. Awesome. Okay. On that note, shall we jump into some fasting relating topics?
Barry Conrad
Let's do it!
Melanie Avalon
Do you have a study to start us out with?
Barry Conrad
I sure do. The study I brought today is called Silencing Lipid Catabolism Determines Longevity in Response to Fasting. This was actually published in April this year, so pretty recent, pretty current. I love this because it's basically like a massive plate of food for thought, and I reckon it could really challenge how people think about fasting, especially in the IF world.
A quick context for everybody as well. This is actually about tiny worms, not humans, but go with me. Go with me. It's going to all make sense. There's no human age or height or weight data or anything like that, but very controlled lab conditions. Scientists do use these models a lot because the basic way cells use and store energy is not dissimilar. Here we go. Go with me here. What happened in the study? They had these worms fast for 24 hours early in adulthood and then fed them again. That alone extended their lifespan by about 40.8%, which is massive, during the fast, exactly what you'd expect to happen. They burned and burned and burned through that fat, that stored fat. Their fat stores dropped by around 61%, which is awesome. So far, nothing surprising, but then the researchers asked a really important question. They were like, is that fat burning actually the reason they lived longer? They basically blocked the worm's ability to properly break down and use the fat. Even when they did that, the worm still got the lifespan benefits from the fasting. So at least in this study, it sort of suggests that it's not just about burning more fat. Here's the part that I wanted to highlight because though it's about worms, what did seem important was what happened after the fast when the worms started eating again. So their bodies needed to switch out of fat burning mode and then back into feeding and rebuilding mode. For listeners joining us, new listeners, think of it like going from burning fuel to actually refilling the tank again and cleaning things up, doing repairs. This switch is controlled by, how do you say, certain signals in the body. Specific proteins like NH-R49, NKIN-19, and those help turn down fat burning once the food is available. Basically, it means your body needs to know when to start breaking things down and start building things back up. The researchers messed with that switch. When they messed with that switch, the worms basically, they were stuck in fat burning mode all the time, but the benefits almost disappeared. So their lifespan boost dropped to around 6% when they messed with that switch. So more time burning fat didn't mean better results, which is another point. So it actually seemed to make things worse in this case. So let's bring it back to us now. Let's bring it back to humans. And how does this apply to us? It's not exactly the same. These are worms. They're not people. So I have to be careful what I'm saying here, but it doesn't mean it's not a useful thought. So with us humans, we do know that being able to switch between fuel sources, going from using sugar when you've eaten to using fat when you haven't eaten is generally really good.
Barry Conrad
It's a good thing. And that's often called metabolic flexibility, and it's linked to a bit of health. But what this study adds is another idea to think about, which is it suggests that the end of your fast when you start eating again is just as important as the fast. So in the worms, when they ate again, their bodies restored energy. We build fat stores. Basically, we set things after the stress of fasting. And when that reset didn't happen properly, the energy systems didn't recover as well. So though it's not exactly the same, we work. It does line up with something pretty practical. And so if someone is constantly trying to fast for longer and longer, skipping meals or staying in a calorie deficit all the time, because they think more fasting sort of equals better results. This study, hopefully, is food for thought to suggest it might not be that simple.
The eating phase, it's not just a break. It's part of the process. And that's also why we talk about the restaurant segment on the show. It's where your body gets to recover, and we build and actually benefit from the stress you put it through. And the takeaway I really want people to have is, intermittent fasting. It works best because you're not fasting for as long as possible, but because you're creating a rhythm that works for your body and with your body. You fast, you stress the system a bit, and you let it recover. Even though we obviously need more human research to really confirm all of this applies to us, it's just a good thought and reminder that more isn't necessarily always better. Melanie, what do you think?
Melanie Avalon
It ties to the, I think, a reason that we often end the show with our proverbial breaking of the fast because it speaks to how, you know, it's not just the fasting that is doing the benefits. It's going back and forth between the two stages of the fasted state and the fed state. So I love that it emphasizes that.
And then I love, you know, how you started off by saying that, you know, are the benefits just due to the fat burning, which I think that is something that is not, well, maybe it's the same thing. I feel like there's often this thought out there that are the benefits of fasting just because of accidental calorie restriction or are the health benefits just because people are losing weight? Is it not the actual fasting itself per se? Like could you just lose weight and get the benefits? And I think this, you know, speaks to that, that it's like things on a cellular and genetic level, epigenetic level that is creating so many of the health benefits, not necessarily just the weight loss per se.
Barry Conrad
Exactly. And we see articles all the time, Mel, and a lot of things sensationalized online about it's just restricting calories. That's the only reason why this works, why this is, it's just a trend. But time and time again, we can week out when we bring these studies, they just keep on touching on the fact that there's so much more going on than just calories in, calories out. And I hope it doesn't sound like a broken record, but it's really true.
So much happening on that cellular level, for sure.
Melanie Avalon
so so true and yeah no and thank you for finding this i'm looking at the i always like to look at the researchers and see if i like recognize anybody from the from the stuff but awesome awesome awesome we will put a link to this in these show notes okay shall we jump into some listener questions
Barry Conrad
Let's get some listener questions going. So the first one we have out the gate is from Amy. And Amy says, at certain times of the year, I'm unable to eat during my typical eating window. And I end up having to shift it several hours later for a few months. What are some things I can do to make it an easier transition?
Is that normal to struggle with change in the window? My body seems to love it when I go back to my winter window. Melanie, what do you think?
Melanie Avalon
Awesome, Amy. Well, thank you so much for your questions. So a few things here. So basically, you know, you have your window for, is it the majority of the year? Yeah, for the majority of the year you have, it sounds like an earlier eating window. And then for a few months, you are eating, you know, later than you would like. And so as far as is it normal to struggle with changing? Yes.
So eating is really, really intensely tied to our circadian rhythm. And that's actually a reason, that's a reason that fasting is so powerful because it gives our body, like our cells and our body all have their own rhythms. And it's really healthy to have consistency with those rhythms. Same thing with sleep. Like they say, like, even if you don't have like the ideal amount of hours or you don't have the ideal sleep schedule, what you really want is consistency. And so with the eating windows, same thing, like having the consistency can be really great. And especially if you aren't changing it at all, because we were talking earlier on the show about the benefits of, you know, mixing things up. So I'm not talking about that right now. I'm just talking about like, if you are consistently having the same eating window all the time, and then you shift it to a different thing. Yeah, it's kind of like a, like a metabolic jet lag because your body, all of your hormones have been adapted to that other window. And so, so yeah, it completely makes sense that it can be a little bit of a struggle. And it sounds like for you, so like I eat really late, for example, but it sounds like for you, you're, you're probably more in line with a common thing we see, which is that insulin sensitivity is typically higher earlier in the day, eating later, unless you're a unicorn like me, can be, you know, a little bit harder for some people.
So as far as like strategy strategies and how to adjust this. So I don't know, it sounds like you're just shifting the window, that you're not, you know, changing the actual time that you're eating. But if you are, that's something you could try is where you make sure that you're still fasting the same amount of time, you're just shifting the timing of the window, which your body, speaking of it being like habitual and circadian rhythm, it will adapt over time. So that will happen naturally. But you can adjust it as well with things like exercise and light to get a more ideal like you can, you can signal circadian rhythms to your body. It like you can do factors that will help make everything easier. So for example, having your light in the morning to kind of anchor your circadian rhythm and then fasting. And then at night, if you are, you know, going later, you might keep the lights on, like do like keep the lights on later to like signal to your body that you're going to be eating later. Like you can adjust things accordingly to it. And then, you know, after eating, making the, putting the lights down again, things like exercise. So if you are, I guess it depends on what type of movement you're doing right now, but if you, whatever you were doing in your prior window, if you could adjust that accordingly.
Melanie Avalon
So basically just making it so that you're shifting everything, I think will help make the transition easier rather than not shifting anything except the window, because then that can be a little bit more jarring. But instead you can kind of just like shift everything that you're doing. And then I don't know what you're, cause you say that you are struggling. So I don't know what the struggle actually is. I'm assuming it's probably, I guess it could be hunger. It could be sleep. So I guess the question is like, what are you struggling with? Cause that would also determine the advice there.
So if it's things like hunger. So if it's things like hunger, we love, well, we love coffee around here. So making coffee your friend, especially glow coffee, my coffee, which you can get at glowcoffeeco.com staying busy during your like prior eating window, which I'm assuming that probably, I mean, I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but I'm assuming it's probably something about your like work or social life that causes this. So you probably are staying busy now naturally during when you were eating. But if you're not, that can be helpful because then that's going to help, you know, break the habit loop, blunt your appetite, all the things. If you find that you, again, it depends on like how you were exercising before, but you could try doing light movement or resistance training nearer to your new eating window to help kind of pull your hunger signals to that time. If it's on the sleep side of things, then sleep is so, so important. If that's what it's messing with, because now you're eating later, then making sure that, I guess it depends. I just don't know enough information. I guess it depends like how quick you're sleeping after you're eating. But if you're not sleeping, like right after eating, you could go on a light walk after eating to help process that. That really helps with insulin sensitivity and blood sugar control. Anything you can do to help support your sleep during this time will make things easier for all of it.
And it also can relate to your dopamine response to things because our brain loves habits. So we released dopamine, which is a feel good neurotransmitter. And the purpose of it is for us to seek out and do things that help us live as a species and do all the things. And the interesting thing is people often think that it gets released once you do the thing that makes you happy, but it actually gets released before you do the thing that makes you happy. So like when you find something that works for you then and your body wants to make it into a habit, then you start getting dopamine releases before it happens. So when you have your window that you like for the majority of the month, you're probably getting a dopamine release before you eat because it's part of your pattern and all the things. And so you there's kind of like a lag where this has to catch up for the dopamine to be reallocated to the new eating timing. So my point is it's not all in your head. It is normal to struggle with transitions.
Melanie Avalon
Your body, what this what this says to me is your body probably does like all things aside prefer the earlier eating window. But there are a lot of things that you can do with your environment, your light, your sleep to make the new window work for you while you are doing it. So those are my thoughts.
Barry, do you have thoughts?
Barry Conrad
Mel, that was so detailed. I don't know how I could possibly add to that.
Amy, I agree with what Mel was saying. Like the uncomfortable phase that you're experiencing is not just voices in your head or, you know, anything like that. It's your body literally re-syncing. It's, and it does sound like that window is your home base sort of rhythm. And like Mel said, again, like using fasting tools like coffee is great. You're sparkling water, even moving your window an hour at a time can make such a difference and using your tools can maybe help smooth that gap when your usual eating time hits. And also I would say make the last meal really count. The last meal before the shift, Amy, so getting enough protein in there, volume, something that actually satisfies you as well, and give it some time, give it a week or so, and also consistency once your body really locks into the new rhythm. It's going to settle down. As Mel said, like our bodies love habit and they get used to things. So honestly, to me, like I think the fact that you can actually change it seasonally is a strength. I hope that doesn't feel as uncomfortable. You got to keep a source and let us know how you go.
Melanie Avalon
Now we have a question from Susie. Speaking of the goat mattress, having flashbacks to like early questions, I feel like when we first launched this show way back in the day, we had so many questions about like, does this break my fast? And we haven't done one of those in a while. So here we go from Susie.
The subject is gum. And Susie says, Hello, love the podcast. I started listening from episode one. I'm currently on episode 18. And by the way, this question is a little bit old. So she is probably farther along way now. The OCD inside of me won't let me listen unless it's in order. So you will probably answer my question way before I get to the episode you answered it in. We are now in episode 477. So if you're still with us, Susie, oh my goodness. Okay, so she says my question is about gum. Not sure if anyone else has asked. I know gum has sweetener in it, which will cause an insulin release. But I feel and many other friends and family that I recommend I have to feel that it will help make the fast go by easier if chewed. Even if a gum is zero calories, will it still break the fast? Sugar free gum is still not okay because of the artificial sweetener question mark. Is there any chewing gum that's okay to chew without it breaking my fast? Can't wait to hear your answer. Awesome.
Barry Conrad
Well, Susie, thanks for the question. And it's so funny that you're going, you're going episode by episode in order. That's commitment. So, props to you for that, I respect that.
And I'm laughing because I know what you mean because once I first started listening to the show, I had to go back and listen in order as well. So, you can't skip ahead, it's gonna feel wrong. Okay, about gum. So, this is one of those things that people have even said to me. They're like, I'm not eating, I'm just chewing gum. It's not really breaking the fast, I'm eating the food, I'm just chewing. And it can be gray in a gray area for a lot of people. You're exactly right about, even if it says zero calories, it does contain some sort of sweetness. So, that could be artificial sweeteners or like sugar alcohols. And even though the calorie content is technically pretty low, fasting is not just about calories and it's about what's happening metabolically. So, when you chew gum, a couple of things do happen here. So, first the act of even chewing, just chewing nothing, just chewing itself can actually stimulate digestion. Funnily enough, your body starts producing saliva, enzymes and basically like gets a signal that food might be coming in. So, then there's that sweet taste. I have it all the time when I look at delicious food that I'm not ready to eat yet. So, which for some people, that can trigger a small insulin response even, even if there's no actual sugar being taken in, which is wild. So, that is kind of where it can get confusing for some people because not everybody does have that exact same response. Some people can chew gum and quote unquote feel, feel fine or no increase in hunger necessarily or noticeable effect. And some people might straight away find it really, really hard to keep fasting. It keeps that sort of like an open door, like one of those hotel lobby doors, like those revolving doors, like a food loop open. So, it keeps the cravings going hard and can make the fasting window feel way longer than it needs to be. So, from a strict, strict clean eye of perspective, gum is generally considered to break the fast, not because it's dumping a bunch of calories into your system, but because it's literally interrupting that fully fasted, low insulin sort of digestive rest state, you know, that we're trying to go for here. Does it mean, doesn't mean that you've ruined everything and you should throw the baby out with the bath water? No, it doesn't mean that you should. And this is where I like to keep things a bit grounded in real life, Susie. If someone, okay, if someone's brand new to fasting and chewing gum is the difference between getting through the fast or not in the beginning, I understand why people use it completely. And it can feel like maybe a crutch in the beginning or something that's a comfort in the beginning. But what you often see over time is like that can become less helpful and more of a hindrance. So, it just keeps that constant stimulation going when part of fasting's benefit is actually giving your body a break from that.
Barry Conrad
And you're also saying if there's any gum that wouldn't break the fast. Well, realistically, anything with flavor or sweetness, even natural gums, like quote unquote natural, it's gonna create some level of response. So, if your goal is a true clean fast, gum doesn't really fit into that.
What I usually would suggest is instead of finding, like instead of finding alternatives that don't trigger that, that cycle, like black coffee is really good. And we talk about it all the time. It's a great thing if you can tolerate it. Sparkling water's really good. Some black tea can really give you that sensory hit. Even just water with a pinch of salt could help. Sometimes your body just needs extra electrolytes. There's also this sort of mindset shift that happens when you fast. So, at the start, it can feel like you need something to get you through. Like, I need something to tide me over. But actually over time, once your body really does adapt, the need for constant chewing and taste does actually drop away. I promise, it really does. And fasting actually becomes way more simple than you can imagine. And if you're zooming out again, if you're aiming for a clean fast, Susie, gum, you gotta kick the gum. Eventually, if you're using it occasionally as a stepping stone, totally understand. But long-term, you'll probably find fasting way easier without it.
And by the time you get this episode, you're probably gonna be way deeper into the show. So, I hope this finds you somewhere down the line. But keep going and let us know how you go. Mel, what do you reckon?
Melanie Avalon
That was now that was very comprehensive. I love and agree with everything you said and yeah the I'm so fascinated by the insulin response piece and we've talked about it on the show before but but basically your body has two different phases of releasing insulin with a meal and so Barry this is what Barry was referencing but basically your your your pancreas always has a little bit of insulin like ready and waiting to go and it's called the cephalic phase insulin response and when you get exposed to something that is food related your body and like like Barry said though I guess it I guess can vary by people as to like how much this has an effect or like what actually happens but in theory what we know is the pancreas releases like a little bit of insulin in preparation like it's assuming you're about to eat so that's why just being exposed to food related flavors or sweetness or chewing can actually release that insulin it's not like the whole gamut of insulin but it's this like ready and waiting to go insulin which I find really really interesting and I was just thinking about it a little bit esoterically right now like so when you're chewing gum because I used to be I don't know Barry did you ever go through a like a gum chewing phase
Barry Conrad
Yeah, I just thought I wasn't being unhealthy because it's just gum. You're just chewing gum. How bad can it be, right?
Melanie Avalon
I feel like it's a, cause this is what I'm thinking about. Like why we do it because you're not actually, there are, there are technically calories typically in gum. And even if it says zero, it could be, cause I think like labeling wise, if it's like less than five calories or something, they can make it say zero. I could be wrong on that, but I know like it can actually, the calories could add up if you go through like a whole pack is my point.
And I used to in Australia or did they have the, um, the dessert gums that they have here? What is that? Oh my goodness. So there was this line of gum. Wait, let me find it. I think they still make it. Okay. Remember Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory.
Barry Conrad
Yes, I do remember.
Melanie Avalon
So, oh, I found it. Remember in that when, what's her name? Is it Violet? The girl who chews the gum and it like goes through an entire meal. I wonder if they still make it.
So like extra gum made this. Oh, it's called dessert delights. Oh man, here's a picture of it. So I remember when I first came out and they came out with the apple pie one and it literally tasted like you were eating apple pie. It was wild. It looks like then they ended up coming with a key lime pie. I never tried that one. A mint ice cream, a strawberry shortcake. Oh yeah, it literally tastes like strawberry shortcake. I don't know what they did, but they were, they were, I think there was a cinnamon roll one too. My point is I went through, I went through like a gum face. I would like go through a pack of that stuff a day. And the question is like, why are you engaging in it? And I think it kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier with the dopamine and stuff. Like the chewing of the gum, it could be like an enjoyment that you get from like the chewing experience. It could be like an addiction to that flavor hit like over and over and over again.
It's like, why are you doing it? And like Barry said, what can you like replace it with instead? So instead of having the gum, which yes, it's going to break your fast. Yes, can potentially release insulin artificial sweeteners. They can have horrendous effects on the gut microbiome. That's actually one of my biggest concerns about them is the effects that they might be having on that.
So what can you do instead? So maybe have some more coffee. Again, if you want really high antioxidant coffee, get my glow coffee. Or can you have water or like sparkling water or can you, you know, do something like what else can you do instead of feeling this need to just chew the gum and chew the gum and chew the gum. And I do think that one of the primary issues with chewing gum during the fast is because it's literally like, it's not only are you exposed to, you know, flavors and potential sweetness or whatever it may be, but you're actually like chewing. You're like signaling to your body like that you're eating, which is also confusing for the body. If it thinks it's eating and then it doesn't actually get a substantial amount of calories, that just kind of messes with the hunger signals and the body's understanding of caloric balance and metabolism. And I won't go on this tangent, but I interviewed Mark Shatsker. He has quite a few books, but one of them is called The End of Craving. He also wrote The Dorito Effect, which I remember Jen Stevens was really obsessed with that book. But in one of those, I think it's The End of Craving, he talks about how, just how problematic artificial sweeteners are because they signal to the body, like I just said, they signal to the body that you're getting calories that you're not getting.
Melanie Avalon
And then that actually messes with our metabolism. Like they've actually done studies, like these studies were so shocking that I almost don't believe them. But in the studies, they found that when they gave participants essentially artificially sweetened beverages, like when they would make up some of the calories with artificial sweeteners so that what they were drinking was actually or eating, I don't remember if it was eating or drinking, but whatever it was, it was less calories than the other options that did not have the artificial sweeteners. People's less. And it had to do, his theory is that it has to do with like sending a signal of confusion to the body where it doesn't know like what a calorie is or like what, like what it means what. And so the metabolism kind of like freaks out and just kind of like shuts down. So that's a whole other reason to not have artificial sweeteners.
But I feel I feel like I've said a lot. I feel like Barry was saying it more eloquently. But my point is, yes, gum does break the fast. There are a lot of other options that you can do instead. So I highly, highly encourage it. And this also could be just coming from my own passion of like having been in a gum chewing state for a while in the past. And it felt really good to not be chewing the gum anymore after that. Thanks so much for your question. I wonder if they still make these dessert ones. Did you look it up?
Barry Conrad
I actually did and one of them said like sugar-free dessert gum, which is even more of a like It's just such a weird contradiction. It's so crazy to me. Yeah
Melanie Avalon
Oh, there's the cinnamon roll one. Uh, and they did something with the flavor that like made it feel like you were really eating it. It was like.
Barry Conrad
What is it there's? Turkish delight is I'm looking at the extra dessert delights one. Is that the one that you mean? Yeah, it's just so crazy
Melanie Avalon
And you would have to I just saw like a really quick person saying that they were great, but they lose their flavor quickly. That was the thing like I would like have one and you can only chew it for so long and then you would lose that flavor so then I'd have to like pop another.
I would I would really go through like a pack a day.
Barry Conrad
Same, and you know what, I actually did have a lot of gum, because you do lose, that's the thing, you do lose that initial kick of that flavour and you want another one, another one, another one, another one.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, well, earlier we were mentioning the importance of both fasting and the feasting, so shall we have our proverbial breaking of the fast moment?
Barry Conrad
I'm so ready.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, so I have a backstory on why I chose this restaurant berry. So I've been wanting to go to this restaurant. It's in Atlanta. It's in Decatur. I've been wanting to go for a long time because I've been very alert by the menu. And they have a Michelin recommendation, they have a James Beard Award, all the things. I actually went, I don't know, maybe three weeks, two or three weeks ago. And wow, it was at least three weeks ago, I think. So we have not recorded in a while. Yeah, well. Yeah. And we only went for drinks though. And I will say, we did not have a good experience at the bar. I think the bartender was just not, it was just a not good night for him. So it was one of the, okay, the reason I'm saying this is because this speaks to how much I am obsessed with this menu, because we had not a good experience. And I still am dying to go back to try the actual restaurant.
And like I said, they have so many awards, I'm sure it was just an off night for the bartender. And having been in that industry, I know how it is. But I'm just saying, dear and dove, because I know they probably are trying to get like an actual Michelin star, you might want to work on some of the staff issues. But that said, the menu is incredible. And we were looking at the menu while we were at the bar. So it's called the Dear and the Dove. Oh, and then we did go to their sister restaurant after that for another drink, and they were amazing. So maybe I'll talk about their sister restaurant next time. Okay, so they are a farmer centered neighborhood restaurant serving rustic cuisine by Terry Cobol, I guess. It was really cute. And so did you get the link?
Barry Conrad
This is looking, this looks good. I like the vibe of this, the kind of farm-y, meaty, game-y kind of vibe. That's my vibe.
Melanie Avalon
Wait till you see everything on the menu. It was it was literally like everything that I never see on menus everywhere on this menu.
Barry Conrad
What? I'm looking at it now.
Melanie Avalon
Okay. So dinner and drinks. Okay. So again, this is the deer and the dove. I am dying to go and hopefully redeem the experience that we had at the bar.
Barry Conrad
Chicken liver pate, ah, duck fat potatoes, ah.
Melanie Avalon
They have so many things, they have squab, they have octopus, they have scallops, they have like beef tongue, they have like literally half rabbit, sweet breads, all the like crazy things.
Barry Conrad
Coffee-dusted seared venison? Never heard of that ever. It sounds amazing though.
Melanie Avalon
Yes, yes. So, okay. Where should we start? I guess openers? Do you see any openers that you would want?
Barry Conrad
cheese from our friends has to be done, which is Decimal Place Farm, is it chevre, hobo, cheese, kobendal, sesquashie, kove, kopinger, apricot, mustado, pairings, and grilled sourdough. And we definitely have to do, actually, you know what? I'll take that back.
Go to the family platter, because that's a combination of the D&D cured salumi and cheeses from our friends, pickled vegetables, softball, farm egg pairings, and grilled sourdough. What about you, Mel? Wait a second.
Melanie Avalon
I never, because it's salame, I mean that's what we call it here, but I never realized it was spelled like the way that you said it. Is that how it's spelled?
Barry Conrad
Did you not know that it's like we say, well we say salami.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, salami. Yeah. Oh, okay. Wait. So is this different? Hold on. Salami for saloon.
Barry Conrad
Because it's spelled different, right?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Okay.
So salumi is the umbrella term for all Italian cured meats, while salami is a specific type O of cured ground sausage. I didn't know that. All salami is salumi, but not all salumi is salami. How's that for a math puzzle?
Barry Conrad
This is like the shrimp and prawn thing.
Melanie Avalon
Yes, it is. I would have like a bite of the of the house cured meats, the salumi, trying to see because there's also like so they have small plates. It's kind of confusing to figure out like how you like how big thing I guess is that salad? Oh, soups, maybe plants and parodies, like soups and salads, kind of. I think so.
So do you see anything else? Smaller that you would want?
Barry Conrad
I definitely, what caught my eye straight away was the duck fat potatoes. I love potatoes in general.
So creamer potatoes, nutritional yeast, green onion, and then also some burrata. I do love burrata.
Melanie Avalon
I want the beef tartare for sure, which is Bear Creek Farms, beef ribeye, caper, lemon, olive oil, soft boiled egg, grabishi, and oh goodness, I can't ever say anything. Fakasha? That, yes.
Barry Conrad
And also melt beneath that doesn't that look interesting to you to want to try the.
Melanie Avalon
A coffee-dusted seared venison? Yes. Yes, I'm trying to figure out, but that's a small plate. It's interesting how they organize this.
So that's roasted beets, carrot puree, beet blood, spruce sea salt, and carrot chips. So is that like an appetizer of it?
Barry Conrad
I think so. I reckon it's just like a small little helping. It's not like a meal meal, like a big meal.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, then definitely that.
Barry Conrad
No, I just had flashbacks to, it's not a meal, it's just a small, the Jim Stevens in.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, the one meal a day, the meal in the snack debate. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness.
Do you see is there like a they don't even have the word entree on here, a larger dish that you want? So I went with my sister-in-law. She actually ordered the D&D grilled burger and she's gluten free. So she got it without the bun. It looked really, it looked really good. So that was so, yeah, she really liked it. Is it big? It was pretty big. Yeah.
Barry Conrad
I am like tempted by the burger, but I think for places like this, I'd probably try something else because that has dark potatoes as well. Maybe I'll avoid the burger and I go for the Hokkaido scallops.
That looks pretty good, pan seared, woodland gardens, bok choy, three-month house cured pancetta, Anson Mills white pea puree, lemon caper bure blanc, trout roe and grilled sourdough. Trout roe sounds great too. Yeah, the scallops for me. Let's go.
Melanie Avalon
I'm surprised you're not getting, because we talked in the past, I don't know if it was on the show or if it was afterwards, we were talking about, do you remember, we were talking about how you, for some reason, have a hesitation about eating non-chicken birds? On here they have fossil farms pheasant and they have squab, which apparently is a type of pigeon.
No. No pigeons or pheasants?
Barry Conrad
I can't do it. I don't know why. It just really freaks me out. I don't know why it does.
Melanie Avalon
That's so funny. It's funny that it freaks you out. Does grilled beef tongue freak you out? They have that on here.
Barry Conrad
I would try that.
Melanie Avalon
So you would try beef tongue, but you won't try pigeon or pheasant?
Barry Conrad
It actually might be some weird thing. I don't know why I think that, but it's almost like my brain can't. Yeah. And unless it's chicken or duck or turkey, it just, I don't know, pigeon and stuff. I don't know.
You know what? I think the reason is when I was a kid, did you have a pet pigeon? I actually had a pet chicken that got killed by a cat, but it's not funny. But I went to this bakery to get a pie and it was meant to be a chicken pie. But I remember biting into it. It's like that didn't taste like chicken. Maybe it was like pigeon or something. And ever since that, that's the story I told myself and I just freaked out about.
Melanie Avalon
Oh my goodness. Wait, childhood trauma. We like it. We actually found it. We found the root.
Barry Conrad
That is actually the root.
Melanie Avalon
And you don't actually know, though, if if that was the case, you just assume it was just off.
Barry Conrad
I don't know. You know what? I would try it. If it was in front of me, I would try it.
I've tried rabbit. I've tried lots of stuff. It's just, it's not, when I read it and I read the words, it doesn't, it makes me kind of like, makes my stomach churn.
Melanie Avalon
That's so interesting. It's kind of like, I think I told this before, like when my grandmother made us spaghetti once and it was really good and she wouldn't, she said she would tell us after what it was, which note to self, I feel like just don't tell the kid.
It was, I mean, it was something I love now. It was dear, venison, but when you're like a little kid, you're like, Bambi,
Barry Conrad
Yeah.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I remember I was horrified. I can still taste it though, it was so good.
Barry Conrad
The thing is, if you put it in front of me right now, I'd probably just eat it. It's just more reading the words on the page and trying to imagine the animal.
Melanie Avalon
Interesting, though, that you're okay with the beef tongue. So I actually, so the things I want on here, I really want I've actually never had rabbit. So I would get the wood fire half rabbit, which is Blue Ridge Farms, rabbit legs, rabbit loin, Hickory Hill Farms, roasted baby carrots, Castel, Vetrano, olives, poultry, juice, herb, risotto, and Benton's 24 month cured country ham. So I will get that with everything on the side, if possible.
Oh, I like that they have dry aged duck. That's interesting. And then I actually might get the beef tongue. And what's interesting is it actually kind of freaks me out. But I think I would like it.
Barry Conrad
What? The beef tongue?
Melanie Avalon
Mm-hmm, but I think I have the response to it that you have to the peasant and the pigeon
Barry Conrad
Because have you tried tongue before like any kind of, I don't think so. It's, it's pretty common in South Africa.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, really? It's not common here. Is it just tastes like steak? No. Oh, it doesn't?
Barry Conrad
Yeah, it's a different consistency. It's definitely not like a steak kind of vibe. It also looks very tongue-esque.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, maybe not. I kind of want to get it just because I'm so curious, like it's something where I would want somebody else to get it and I'll look at it and then I'll maybe taste it.
Barry Conrad
I will say though, rabbit's delicious. It tastes almost like, when I had it in Tenerife, it was almost like a really tender beef stew or something. It was really, really good. Really good.
Melanie Avalon
It's super lean too. Do they have the dessert menu?
Barry Conrad
Oh yeah, Dessert and Digestive, here we go. Oh yeah, this looks good. There's a few things here I would get. What would you get from this menu bar?
Melanie Avalon
Well, I would get a, I mean, I would be on the dinner menu still and get more of, I mean, like there's so many things here. I would probably get one of the small plates that I either hadn't had, or if I liked to get another one, there's just so many different things on here that I, like they also have trout, they have so many things.
So I would get another entree of sorts.
Barry Conrad
I would get two of these desserts. Do you want to guess which two I would get?
Melanie Avalon
Yes. The chocolate fudge cake, which is dark chocolate mousse, cornflake and cocoa. I never know if it's cocoa or cacao.
Cocoa nib, streusel, cinnamon caramel sauce and cornflake ice cream. That's nifty. And then would you get, well, you love creme brulee. Would you get the creme brulee, the creme caramel?
Barry Conrad
I sure would, you got them right.
Melanie Avalon
Yes! Which is French custard, sorghum syrup, and candy nut.
Barry Conrad
It sounds really good. I've never heard of cornflake ice cream. That's interesting. Or cocoa nib streusel. What is that? That actually looks really delicious. Yum. I'm in. I'm sold.
Melanie Avalon
Do you see a drinks that you would like? Yes. And I can actually tell you what I got.
Barry Conrad
Oh yeah, you can actually, you've been there. What did you get?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So I loved this list because they have, I got one of their orange wines. I got the, um, Turiga National Freo Winery. Oh, wait, that was a Rosé. Wait, let me see what I got cause I can check.
Barry Conrad
I do like orange wine though, and rosé.
Melanie Avalon
I tried the orange wine. I wonder if they had one. Oh, it is by the glass. Okay.
I didn't see that I got the okay, so I did get that's what I thought I thought I got the Freia Freo, but here that it says that it's a Rosé, but the one they had when I was there was an orange wine So I think they had an orange wine by that same winery. So is it good? Yeah, it was really good I really liked it orange wines tend to be that you know, they're more natural and And I had also I think tried one of the reds, but they have they have a fantastic wine list
Barry Conrad
So maybe it was just a really off night for the bartender because the food and the wine looks really good to me.
Melanie Avalon
I know, I know, it does.
Barry Conrad
I would get the D&D spring gin and tonic only because it's named after the institution so I'll do that, which is a morals of road, gin, gin, apple time, house tonic syrup, spices, soda, and then also I would also have to try as a second drink before moving on to wine the Al Greco, which is tequila, dill, tarragon, Greek, mastilla, liqueur, lustar, dry vermouth, alapino, lime bitters, yum.
Melanie Avalon
so many options. So yeah, I really want to go here though. So.
Barry Conrad
Yeah, you got to try it and let me know what the food is actually like.
Melanie Avalon
It might be the menu-wise, it might be the place in all of Atlanta I want to go to the most.
Barry Conrad
And also, okay, if you had to order, if you had to go tonight, what would you order for your, your mains, your, your big meal?
Melanie Avalon
What would I order if I was literally going tonight?
Barry Conrad
Yeah, would you have the tongue or would you have the rabbit?
Melanie Avalon
I definitely want the rabbit, I don't, but yeah, I need, let me look up.
Barry Conrad
what it looks like.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, I'm going to see if I can actually see it like at their restaurant. Okay. Well, when it's not cooked, it looks really scary, but cooked. I do want to try it. I might have to try it.
Barry Conrad
Then you can just send me a photo and say, hey, guess what, guess where I am.
Melanie Avalon
I'll do it. I'll do it. Awesome. Okey-dokey.
Well, friends, we hope that you have the best time with us. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. You can join our Facebook group, IF Biohackers. And we interact a lot with you guys there. We also ask questions for the show. So definitely check that out. And then today's show notes will be at ifpodcast.com slash episode 477. They will have a full transcript and links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out.
All right. I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Barry, before we go?
Barry Conrad
No, thank you so much, listeners, for tuning in once again. We appreciate you so much, every single one of you, and we'll catch you next week.
Melanie Avalon
Talk to you next week. Bye.
Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. you