Welcome to Episode 494 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC.
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Brad Kearns is a New York Times bestselling author, former two-time US national champion and #3 world-ranked professional triathlete, and currently elite masters track&field high jumper. His B.rad podcast is a top-10 ranked Apple Podcasts "Fitness" category show covering diet, fitness, peak performance, personal growth and longevity with Brad's carefree style and lively sense of humor.
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TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon
Welcome to episode 494 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, founder of AvalonX, and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm joined by my co-host, Barry Conrad, actor, singer-songwriter, and creator and host of Banter with BC. For more on us, check out melanieavalon.com and barryconradofficial.com. You can submit questions for the show by emailing questions@ifpodcast.com or by going to ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you.
Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 494 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here today with a very special, incredible guest, which I am feeling like I should freestyle rap introduce him, but I don't think I can do that under pressure because that idea just came to me right now. But I am here with Brad Kearns, the legend. The legend. He-- I thought he had been on this show. Apparently, he has not. He has been on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, and actually, that year, whatever year that was, I'm, I don't even remember. I do remember, though, looking at the downloads for that year, and Brad, you were one of the most downloaded episodes that year.
Brad Kearns
Oh, my gosh. So exciting, and what an honor to be on episode four ninety-four of the intermittent fast. We're gonna have a blast. It's show four ninety-four, and it's certainly not your last.
I think it's gonna be fantast-ic. And that was my freestyle rap. Since you alluded to that, I... You put me on the spot. I'm like, "I'm gonna have to bust one out." Now we're ready.
Melanie Avalon
Oh, my goodness. See? Now we're good.
Now we're good. See, friends, this, this is why Brad is here. This man is a legend. A little bit about him, although you're probably familiar, since like I said, one of the most downloaded episodes on my other show. So he has written so many books. Right before this, I was going through Amazon and trying to pull up all the books, and there's so many of them. A lot of them that I'm sure you guys have read, so Primal Endurance, Keto For Life, The Keto Reset Diet, Two Meals A Day, Carnivore Cooking For Cool Dudes, How to Improve Your Triathlon Time. Most recently, and many of those of which were with Mark Sisson, who also recently came on this show, so I will put a link to that in the show notes. The most recent book from Brad and Mark is, was, is, I guess, Born to Walk: The Broken Promises of the Running Boom, and How to Slow Down and Get Healthy One Step at a Time. And then beyond that, so beyond all of the incredible books that he does, he is also, wait for it, a former two-time US national champion and number three world-ranked professional triathlete. And assuming that this bio is current, are you, are you still currently an elite masters track and field high jumper?
Brad Kearns
Yes, which is fun, and maybe we'll talk about some of these topics, but I was an extreme endurance athlete way back when. I was a triathlete, you know, this is 30 years ago now, 'cause now I'm getting old, and I've completely turned my attention to sprinting and jumping and competing on the masters track and field scene, which is, they have track meets for old people, believe it or not, and it's super fun, and I can't wait to, to get into that a little bit more about the, the health and longevity benefits of that type of training versus the extreme endurance stuff that I did in my foolish, youthful days.
Melanie Avalon
I'm having all the flashbacks. Do those activities include... I know they include the high jumping. Do they include the long jump?
Brad Kearns
Well, that's one of... Those are, those are track and field events indeed. I specialize in the high jump. I just love it. It's incredibly complex and technique-dependent, where you have to, you know, clear the bar. I'm sure the listeners are familiar with the high jump.
Pretty simple. Pretty simple objective, but the complexity of how to train for it and how to execute the jump is a huge challenge. And then I like the 400 meters, which is one lap around the track. Pretty simple. It's a very grueling event because you're trying to sprint the whole way, and it's kind of more than the body can sprint. You know, the body can sprint one straightaway. We watch Usain Bolt doing the 100, but the 400 requires a tremendous amount of both aerobic fitness and anaerobic fitness, which I'm sure we'll get into more later. So it's great to have a athletic challenge and have something to train for and focus on. Of course, it's a different approach than when my whole life was dedicated to the extreme training and, and global travel on the triathlon circuit for a decade and, you know, basically eating, sleeping, and training was the essence of what it's like to be a triathlete. So now this fits conveniently into my life, and the training is less time-consuming, more supportive of health and longevity, and therefore something that I can sustain and look forward to enjoying for years to come.
Melanie Avalon
So actually, yes, question there. You know, you're alluding to it right now, your, your past athletic endeavors with the, the triathlons and such, which would include endurance type running. In your new book, the newest book, Born to Walk, talks about a lot of the issues and problems health-wise with endurance s- type activities. So B-Rad, do you... 'Cause this clearly is, like, a passion for you, these athletic things that you do, which by the way, I am in awe, and I am, feel like I need to, um, start doing something like this.
But regardless, do you regret not having walked more in comparison to what you did? Like, it sounds like it was really a passion of yours. Did it do damage to your body?
Brad Kearns
When you are trying to ascend to the elite level in any sport, you pretty much have to put health, balance, wellbeing aside, just like someone who's building a startup app, and it's gonna be fantastic, but they have to work day and night, then they're gonna go public, and then they're gonna make a lot of money, and they're like, there's no balance involved in the cutthroat competition in the business world or trying to make it through law school and pass the bar. And so when I was a triathlete, like, you know, the, the, the requirement to make marginal improvements to improve my finishing time from an hour 47 to an hour 46 meant that I would go from seventh place to first. I would make, you know, multiples more income and more fame and excitement and g- magazine coverage. And so I had to put my heart and soul and every ounce of energy I had into trying to make these marginal gains, which had nothing to do with health and were indeed in direct conflict with health.
So putting aside, like, the example of an elite and what their trade-off is, I think that the bigger picture that Mark and I were trying to convey in the book is that a lot of people are well-intentioned, excited, they wanna have a bucket list experience, or they wanna branch out from their largely sedentary lifestyle patterns and do something extraordinary like finish a marathon. And for the most part, the nature of the event itself and the way that most people prepare for it are extremely unhealthy and destructive to the immune system, the hormonal system, the musculoskeletal system, and it's not just my opinion. As we talk about in the book, there's respected research from around the world. Yale University School of Medicine says that 50% of regular runners get injured every year. Wake Forest said 73%. Harvard said 25% of runners are injured at any given time . So you're looking at this huge booming sport where the shoe industry is multi-billion dollar. People are buying the big cushion shoes, and they're shuffling along down the sidewalk or the trail near you, and it's super popular, and people get their finisher medal, and they post on Instagram, and they're celebrated at the office for having completed the amazing event.
But we wanna call out this extremely flawed and destructive approach where the training is too strenuous. Now, to try to answer your question, when I was a triathlete, I had the luxury of dedicating my life to it, so I slept half of my life, 10 hours a night, two-hour nap every afternoon. I ate, you know, a really nutritious and careful diet, and I was always balancing the other forms of stress because I pretty much had nothing... I, I couldn't divert myself to, to do things like a demanding career because the training was too strenuous. But enable-- it enabled me to thrive and get faster and go and compete at a high level.
The problem we see with the recreational endurance athlete is they do have a demanding career, family life, other responsibilities. They're running around.
Brad Kearns
They're squeezing in a workout at 6:00 AM, and then they're working hard in the office or getting on an airplane and traveling, and it just becomes this compilation of chronic stressors that we see in modern life, and we talk about at great length how, how, how destructive it is to the body to have this chronic overproduction of stress hormones leading to immune suppression, leading to hormonal suppression, burnout, whatever you wanna call it. And that is kind of the big risk of today's earnest endurance athlete.
And so we would be much, much better off to tone things down and get out there and walk and put more daily step count in and second-guess some of these extreme endurance endeavors that have become so incredibly popular.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, it's so interesting. I think the halo effect surrounding marathons in particular I'm fascinated by.
Brad Kearns
What do you mean by that?
Melanie Avalon
I mean, it's a lot of people would wanna do a marathon just for, like, a personal goal, but I think a lot of people do it because they think it's really healthy. Like, it's, like, a really healthy thing to do.
And I'm like-- And I'm, and every time that comes up, I'm like, "Well, I don't know that that's the case." Like, I'm not sure.
Brad Kearns
Yeah. We have a, a chapter in the, in the book "Born to Walk" about the, the acute damage that one experiences after a marathon is absolutely shocking, and then the long-term damage from, you know, devotion to this type of lifestyle for years and perhaps decades is also shocking and mind-blowing. I have a great number of my peers that have come up with serious heart problems in the years and decades after their professional triathlon careers. Quite a few of them have dropped dead tragically.
A lot of them have had to have emergency surgeries, pacemakers implanted. The condition is called AFib, or atrial fibrillation is the common one, where that's a disrupted electrical signaling in the heart where you have skipped beats or fluttery beats, and it's because th-- of the long-term repeated scarring and inflammation of the heart muscle. The wall starts to get inappropriately thick, and the nerve endings get confused, and so you start feeling this flutter in your chest, and it's, it's no good, but it is so common, and it's something that no one talks about. And then as far as the acute circumstances, if m- most finishers were to cross the finish line of their marathon, raise their arms in triumph, get the photo, if they were directed immediately to the emergency room and, and given a blood test, they would present as someone having a heart attack, myocardial infarction, because of the elevated heart and liver enzymes and kidney values that happen with having challenge their body to that extreme. And the recovery takes several weeks for the levels to get down to normal, to where your liver, your kidneys, your heart, and everything is again in a, a recovery state. And so you could call it a bucket list experience, and I'm all in favor of people, you know, pushing the limits of their capabilities and having a breakthrough experience and believing in themselves and doing something challenging that, you know, reinforces that belief in themselves. But it starts to get a little ridiculous when you see people basically torturing themselves and forming this collective mindset that you have to struggle and suffer your way to fitness or even to, you know, self-esteem. Like, a lot of, a lot of addicted-type athletes, they can't miss a workout, or they feel bummed and stressed, and they, they look down, and they pinch their stomach, and they think they're getting fat 'cause they missed their workout one day.
You know, all that kind of flawed mentality coming into the, the high devoted exercise population. And it's something that I can, you know, speak about now, having been through the experience of being so deeply immersed into the culture that, you know, I, I pushed my body very, very hard when I was a young person, and I loved it. It was a great experience. It allowed me to have an outlet for my competitive intensity.
Brad Kearns
I wasn't gonna make it in the NFL for the Atlanta Falcons or any other team, so I'm like, "Okay, I guess I better be a runner and endurance athlete 'cause I can suffer and outlast other people and, and go really far." And all that's great, but I think it's like, I'm gonna call it, like, it's a young person's game, and it's best envisioned as a bucket list game where you, you know, you make a pact with your pals, and you say, "Hey, uh, next summer we're gonna climb the highest mountain in Vermont, and we're all gonna practice, and we're gonna go to the gym in January because we have this big outing that's gonna take three days, and it's gonna be grueling and strenuous.
And then we're gonna celebrate and go back to real life." But what you see a lot in the endurance community is this, like, immersion into the struggle and suffer daily pattern of chronic stress and fatigue and breakdown as, like, the default state, you know?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. E-exactly.
And, and I did appreciate that perspective in the book about how you didn't say, "Don't do it." It was-- But it's basically like, if you do it, you know, be aware of what's happening to your body and do it once, not twice.
Brad Kearns
And you, you opened up a nice-- I'm gonna go on another rant because you make an im-important point there, and you asked me a question about, you know, w-what I was doing back then. Now, if you are a young, genetically adapted, very fit person who has, you know, trained hard for years, like I was a high school runner and then college, and then I got into triathlon. So at a certain point, I could go out and ride my bicycle for five hours, and it wasn't-- it ain't, it ain't no big deal, and then get off the bike and, and go run for 40 minutes and then come back and go to the grocery store and get some food and, and watch a video that night.
So the example set by the elite athletes is something that we distort and misappropriate because the strain and the stress of the training is even less than that of the average recreational enthusiast with the hectic high-stress life in the background. There's a great winter Olympian, maybe some people are familiar with him. His name is Johannes Klaebo from Norway. And in the last Olympics a few months ago in twenty twenty-six, he won, I think it was six gold medals. He won everything he tried in all these different distances. No one could touch him. He was like, he's the greatest winter Olympian of all time by, you know, the number of gold medals that he's won. And he just reported in an interview that 88% of his weekly training volume is conducted in zone one. And I'm sure you and the listeners are familiar with the high promotion of zone two these days, zone two cardio. Zone two cardio is great for longevity, zone two this, zone two that, and that's a great-- i-it's a great promotion because zone two is a comfortable pace, and at the, at the very top of zone two is when you're burning the maximum number of fat calories per minute with a minimum amount of glucose-burning stimulation. So it helps with your fat burning, your metabolism, and it doesn't exhaust and fatigue you. But most recreational athletes are taking that and going out and pegging their heart rate at the very top of zone two, or sometimes, because they're not disciplined enough, they might go into zone two point three or two point four and say, "Oh, it's a little tougher today 'cause I was, I was running with people who are better than me, but it was a great workout." Meanwhile, the greatest winter Olympian of all time is conducting 88% of his workouts at this zone two-- zone one pace, which is so comfortable that by comparison, because remember, it's all relevant to your heart rate and your maximum capability, it is for almost everyone listening, it equates to a medium or brisk walk, not a jog or anything faster than that. So when I look around and see the population of people jogging and participating in these events, most of them should be walking. And this is just a scientifically validated insight from exercise physiology research and the training methods of the greatest endurance athletes of all time, like Klaebo and like the great marathoner that we talk about a lot in the book, Eliud Kipchoge. He's the greatest marathoner of all time, two-time Olympic gold medalist, and broke two hours in the marathon.
Brad Kearns
He runs 83% of his weekly mileage in zone one, and the, the average person is completely unaware of it. That's why I wanna emphasize the point that you might be working your body harder than the great elite athletes of the planet who are way more genetically gifted than you and can get away with more 'cause they sleep and eat and train.
So generally There's a lot of people that need to move more and get their butt off the couch and start counting their steps, but there's a huge sliver of the, the fitness population that are pushing themselves too hard, and that is causing a lot of fallout and a lot of metabolic problems, which we're gonna get into in terms of, like, dietary habits and dietary choices and dysregulation of appetite due to overly stressful workouts.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, so many things here. So zone one, is it, is it like when you're at Disney World and you're, like, trying to get to a ride and you're walking fast through the crowd? Is it like that pace?
Brad Kearns
Good question because here's the thing, it's all relative. So if we're talking to a senior citizen in the nursing home, and they get up out of bed and they have to go across the hall to, to, to, to get their tray of food-
Melanie Avalon
That could be zone-
Brad Kearns
... that might be zone two. You know? That might be zone three. And in fact, we've also heard a lot of promotion of a VO2 max value for longevity, if you're familiar with that stuff.
Melanie Avalon
Yes.
Brad Kearns
That's the oxygen consumption per minute per kilogram of body weight, and it's a great way to measure fitness. And interestingly enough, if your VO2 max falls below 17 milliliters per minute per kilogram of body weight, you're gonna die any time.
So it is the essence of dying by natural causes, is that your body, your mitochondria, no longer have the ability to generate sufficient energy to, f- for example, get up and walk 10 steps across the room. So that is the interesting tidbit about VO2 max, and then there's also cutoffs. Like, 32 is considered a healthy, fit, energetic human, and then up and over 50 is considered elite, and the top athletes in the world are up over 70 and 80. So I don't think most people need to be obsessed with testing their VO2 max with an expensive test in the lab. The values that you see on your smartwatch are totally inaccurate. You can completely disregard those.
But it's a nice concept to realize that when you can walk and be active and lift some weights and sprint once in a while, these are attributes that are going to contribute to your longevity more so than anything else under the sun, and that's now being agreed upon by longevity experts. Like, you can, you can diet your ass off and, and have, you know, the, the greatest diet ever and a, a good number of supplements and, and whatever, you know, the Bryan Johnson program for millions of dollars of testing and optimizing, but if you don't get out there and keep your, your muscle strength, your muscle power, and your cardiovascular conditioning, that's, you know, that's the, the hallmark of either accelerated aging or promoting longevity.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, so one, one more question about that. The guy with all of the medals and does a lot of zone one.
Brad Kearns
Klæbo?
Melanie Avalon
Yes. How universally applicable is his situation?
Since you did mention he is so genetically gifted already, is it possible that his zone one endeavors benefit him more? Like, if somebody's sedentary and not unhealthy, do they maybe need a different type of zone workout because they're coming from a different baseline for health?
Brad Kearns
Yes. And the, the, the worse, the worse shape you are, the less fit you are, the more you need to put these building blocks into place so that you can one day aspire to and benefit from a more high-intensity workout experience.
And so what we saw on The Biggest Loser TV show is that people show up to the set and they drive them like dogs for six weeks and they lose 80 pounds or 100 pounds or 40 pounds or whatever, and then the stunning recap or research on where these people are today, they're, all of them are worse off. They've gained all the weight back and then some because of this inappropriate extreme exercise binge that they weren't capable of absorbing and benefiting from. So all athletes in all sports need to have a really strong aerobic foundation. That's just basic conditioning, being able to process oxygen in the body. And then from that launching pad, then you can say, "Okay, I wanna go and try to do the adult basketball league or finish a longer race or something that's more challenging." But the starting point for everyone is to put one foot in front of the other and become more active because what we're seeing now, of course, we've been talking about fitness and extreme training, but we also see people who are underactive, underutilized, and that's just one step at a time is, is the best approach.
Melanie Avalon
One, one step at a time. Okay. And ironic- and appropriately enough, or another question here. So earlier you were mentioning the problems of people with their fancy shoes that are comfortable, you know, doing these marathons and such. So that's another, I think, halo effect. Like, we feel like putting on these really comfortable shoes let us, you know, they help us, you know, go faster and farther, so that must be a good thing because yay, exercise, and yay, all the things.
However, a, a big part of Born to Walk talks about the really fascinating, and I did not realize there was that much to know about the history of running shoes, but it's another thing where you... I think people think that they're doing a good thing by putting them on, and really it's allowing them to use their feet, I'm... and I'll let you say it better, but use their feet incorrectly. It's like, it's like, it's like a diversion of the... Like, people don't get the, the signals that they are using their feet incorrectly. Is that correct?
Brad Kearns
Yes, very nice setup there. Here, here's what's going on. Running is a very difficult activity. It requires a significant level of fitness to take off and run, even a short distance. You could do it when you're kindergarten or fourth grade, but then by the time you get to middle school, and I know this 'cause I used to run a kids' fitness program, a lot of kids can't even run a short distance without stopping, let alone the adults that have turned, turned the corner and they have no fitness capability.
So the act of running requires a lot of musculoskeletal conditioning And of course, the aerobic conditioning to be able to pick a running pace and maintain it for more than a short distance. So you have to have correct form, which is a midfoot landing over a balanced center of gravity, which requires hamstring flexibility and core stability and all these things. It's not easy to just take off and run down the road with correct form. And we would learn this if we were forced to go run a mile, for example, barefoot. It would be tough on the feet, on the calves, on the lower back, and you'd walk back home with your tail between your legs. But the magnificent invention of the elevated cushion running shoe by Nike back in the 1970s, Phil Knight and Bill Bowerman, these shoes were invented for the elite runners of America training for the Olympics and trying to run even more mileage than they already were because the rudimentary running shoes before that didn't have any padding. It was just like a rubber strip and a canvas top, and it was causing injuries even to the best runners. So now, and we look at the running shoe today with these giant pillowy shoes, what happens is anyone can slip those on and take off and shuffle down the sidewalk without experiencing the immediate penalty of the traumatic high-impact forces that are generated even from slow jogging. This is three times body weight, up to four times or even five times body weight on each stride is the impact forces that happen when you're running. Sprinting is five times body weight, but an average jogger is gonna be up at three times, and walking, by contrast, is a maximum of 1.75 times body weight. And so it's very manageable because one foot is on the ground at all times when you're walking. So there's no big concern about impact forces when one foot's on the ground all the time. But running, this is the difference in the human gait pattern of anthropology, exercise physiology. We have this thing called the flight phase where both feet are in, in the air, and then one foot lands and the other foot takes off, a running stride. So with three times body weight on every stride, the average casual jogger going out for a typical five-mile jog, and I think the stat we presented was the person weighs 150 pounds. That's 2.3 million pounds of impact forces going into the lower extremities on a routine jogging session that, you know, all our people we know do on a regular basis several times a week. And with the shoes on, they enable poorly conditioned people to do this act of jogging.
Brad Kearns
I should really call it shuffling, but they're still trying to run and have one foot off the ground, and that's what leads to this huge rate of injuries because the body just can't handle it. But it can do it, but it can't handle it.
You get what I'm saying? Here's an analogy. Like, you go to the dentist to get-- the oral surgeon to get your wisdom teeth out. I can still remember the extreme ordeal that I had 'cause one of the tooth-- my, my tooth wouldn't come out, and the dentist had to climb on the chair and hit with a hammer and a pick to break the tooth and then pull it out. And the whole time, I was under Novocaine, right? My mouth was numb. So I was smiling and giving a thumbs up, and they were, they were concerned about me 'cause it was taking forever, but everything was fine. All it was, was humorous because this guy was, you know, standing over me with his knees on the armchairs of the, of the dental chair. So because I was numbed, I did not feel the massive impact forces and the oscillations of my bone and my nerves and my mouth and my face until the Novocaine wore off, which was about five hours later when I was trying to go to sleep that night. And that was-- had the most extreme pain I've ever experienced in my life.
And so I'm making the analogy, like, you can't feel the penalty of inappropriate technique and excess impact forces because of the cushioned shoe. But indeed, the forces are going into your lower extremities, your feet, your ankles, your hips, your lower back. And that's why you get... It's called, uh, microtraumas and inflammation over and over throughout the, uh, joints, tendons, muscles of the lower extremities, and that's where the runners are headed. So the shoes enable poorly conditioned people who shouldn't be running, they enable them to run.
Melanie Avalon
So basically, that force has to go somewhere. So if you don't feel it in the feet, it's going to the rest of your body, and your feet are more adapt.
So if you were running without shoes, are your feet more able to absorb that? And also, would that stop you earlier because you don't have shoes on?
Brad Kearns
It's sort of like a for illustration point only, and this is from the great research, uh, at Harvard University, Dr. Daniel Lieberman, author of Exercise and many other books, and considered one of the world's leading researchers in barefoot gait pattern, barefoot running. The impact forces when we run barefoot are significantly less than when we run in beautiful, modern, elevated cushioned shoes. Because when you run barefoot, and when I do my clinics, Melanie, I, I have everyone take off their shoes for a moment, just a moment. I'm not gonna go get you injured. We're not gonna run, you know, down around the point and back. But I have them run down a hard surface, like a sidewalk or a gym floor, whatever it is. I have them run barefoot, and immediately what you see amongst the clinic of 47 people is all of a sudden everyone exhibits perfect form because there is no other way to run down a sidewalk barefoot than to run with grace and precision impact and take off like a deer. And the foot, the magnificent human foot, which is built for impact absorption and propulsion with spring-like tendons and even the bones and the muscles, of course, they, they load energy, and they gracefully absorb impact forces, harness the impact force into Kinetic energy for an explosive takeoff. And if you watch any top runner, you can see they're wearing spikes, whatever, but, you know, minimal shoes, and they are- they're running around the track breaking records, and they look so beautiful, as opposed to the shuffling jogger. So the impact forces in the, the shoe are seven times that of the impact forces when running barefoot, and it's just mind-blowing.
It's like if, if if they didn't bring it out of the respected lab, you'd be like, "No way, dude," but it's completely verified by science. And what's going on with the shoe, well, why doesn't it feel that hard and, and jarring when I'm running in the shoe? It's because you are cut off from the proprioception, the awareness of your body moving through space, because the very sensitive nerve endings on your feet are dulled inside 25 millimeters of thick foam. So you don't realize the jarring, inappropriate impact forces being dispersed throughout the lower extremities because of the cushion of the shoe. In fact, it feels comfortable. It feels great. I like this shoe better than that one. It's got more cushion. You just find out later when you develop Achilles tendonitis or plantar fasciitis or all the conditions that runners, and even regular people that just, you know, walk through life and wear elevated cushioned shoes, and their, their feet become weakened and unable to absorb impact gracefully or, or, you know, pronate successfully to, to harness the kinetic energy. Everything's diffused and compromised inside the shoe. So does that mean we should all take off our big shoes and start running barefoot? No, because we've spent years and decades in shoes, and we don't have that functionality of the foot because it's been atrophied and squeezed together, and we have things like bunions, and plantar fasciitis afflicts a lot of people, not just runners.
Brad Kearns
So w- we have to do a graceful transition into a more barefoot-inspired lifestyle with better foot functionality, better foot range of motion, and strengthening. And of course, you know that I'm part of the Peluva organization with Mark Sisson and his son Kyle, and Mark and Kyle developed this five-toe barefoot shoe that gives you protection, it looks cool, and it also allows the most authentic barefoot experience of any shoe because the toes are separated individually.
So it's... You know, they call it a toe shoe or whatever you wanna call it, but it allows you to get the foot working as it should through that full range of motion, especially the big toe, which is the most important joint in human locomotion, and it's severely compromised inside a shoe. The big toe is where we're supposed to push off on every stride, walking, running, whatever. We're supposed to push off forcefully and with precision with the big toe, but we simply can't do it when it's locked inside a shoe.
Melanie Avalon
So I have a question there. Yesterday, one of the other guests I'm preparing for the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, he mentioned Peluvas in his book.
Brad Kearns
Cool. It's coming. The revolution's coming because really people are... E- everyone's had enough of chronic foot pain. It's so common.
American Podiatric Association research shows that 83% of Americans complain of chronic foot pain. Usually, it's like, you know, a corn, which is that big callus, a bunion, which is the bone growth caused by repeated trauma and compressing the metatarsals inside the shoe, plantar fasciitis, Achilles tendonitis, and even things up higher. Like, a lot of people might complain of knee pain, but it, it starts with the foot being unable to do its job restricted inside the shoe. Therefore, it's, it's like physics. You know, the sheer forces, because the foot just stomped down and took a stride without gracefully landing, flattening and tightening the arch, and then pushing off with, with power with the big toe. Because that didn't happen, now the knees and the hips and the lower back are taking the brunt.
Melanie Avalon
Do you know Robert Whitfield? That's the guy who mentioned it. He does breast explants-
Brad Kearns
Uh-huh
Melanie Avalon
... for people with problems with, um, breast implant illness. Okay.
Brad Kearns
Oh, boy.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. He just says that, um, when he does surgery now he just wears, I guess, whatever.
Brad Kearns
Oh, the Peluva's cool, yeah.
Melanie Avalon
Just Peluvas.
Brad Kearns
It's... You know, it's like we're not used to using our feet, and so it requires a, a careful transition, and the first thing that listeners can do is, like, consider taking your shoes off in the home. It's a tradition in many cultures, right?
But then you kind of free your feet from the restriction of not even just shoes, but socks. I mean, the socks are pulling your toes together and squeezing them together. So th- you know, the freedom that you experience when you have a choice to, you know, try this new style five-toe shoe and walk around feeling like you're still barefoot, but of course protected, or going barefoot in any safe area that you can, that's when you start, you know, taking steps toward longevity, better functionality, and even injury resilience when you're talking about doing things like sports, where you might have to put those shoes back into the specialized athletic shoe for, uh, you know, cycling or running or... You know, I use track and field spikes when I'm high jumping, and they're a rigid steel plate in there. They're nothing like barefoot, and I only use them to go and j- try to jump over the bar, and then I take them off and go back through my life wearing exclusively barefoot shoes or going barefoot.
Melanie Avalon
To that point, because earlier you were saying, you know, the, the problems with running in general as far as the forces and, and the f- the flight moment, and you're not absorbing that force or, like, supporting yourself with one foot on the ground at all times. So I was gonna ask, with walking, are there still these concerns about damage?
But those, those concerns are coming from... So even if we're just walking, still, like, a Peluva-type shoe is gonna be helpful. Walking is not protective in and of itself. Just the act of walking
Brad Kearns
Well, walking is so much less traumatic and less impact force. It's only 1.7 times body weight, and so almost anyone can safely and immediately start upping their daily step count without this risk of injury that the runners face because of the, the pounding.
The goal would be to strengthen your feet naturally in a low-risk manner by wearing the correct shoes for walking. 'Cause if you're wearing these big, giant cushion shoes, which most people wear for walking, "Oh, these are so comfortable. It feels like I'm walking on, you know, pillows," and again, it's the dulling of the sensation of what's really going on. You're not gonna get injured from that inappropriately dispersed impact trauma when you're walking, but your feet, uh, your, your lower back might ache after a 12-hour shift i- in the nursing station because you're wearing... They, they like to wear Crocs, or they like to wear the giant, uh, HOKA or the other branded running shoes with the 40 millimeter stack height, thinking that they're doing themselves a solid and getting that extra cushioning 'cause they're on their feet all the time. But the truth, as many of the leaders in this space communicate so eloquently, like Dr. Courtney Conley with Gait Happens, the, the most comfortable way to stand and the most efficient material for impact absorption ever discovered by far is our own collagen and elastin fatty pads on the midfoot and the heel. So our feet absorb impact more efficiently than any other material ever discovered, and it's just the fact that we've lost the condition, and we've atrophied from using the shoes.
Oh, I, I should make this clarification too. I'm talking about how, you know, the, the impact forces are distributed, and the listener's now wondering, "But I feel so comfortable running down the street." The, the sole, the, the, the cushion, the padding in the sole absorbs around 10% of the impact, so we're talking about the 90% that goes into the body. You get it? So, I mean, the, the shoe does work. The, the... If you're barefoot, then you don't have that, that, that 10% calculation 'cause the, the foot is absorbing 100% of the landing on the ground, but it's completely, fantastically adapted to do so. There's this one thing called the windlass mechanism, and that's a sailing term describing the tightening of a rope or cable to, for example, bring the anchor up from... You start winding the, the cable, and the anchor comes up from the floor of the, of the water. Or if you tighten the, the sail to get some speed going into the wind, it's called the windlass mechanism, and this is exactly the term used in podiatry for the flattening and tightening of the human arch when you land on the ground. And so when you're walking, the correct human gait pattern for walking indeed is a heel-first landing, and then you roll through the complete range of motion of the foot, including the flattening and tightening of the longitudinal arch, the long arch of the foot, and then taking off with a powerful dorsiflexion of the big toe.
Brad Kearns
That is how the human species is supposed to walk. Running is a little different because the landing is on the midfoot rather than on the heel.
But what happens with the elevated cushion shoe is it enables you to run with this terribly flawed heel striking, jarring, braking, over-striding pattern, and I say enable, not cause, because the cause of the poor form is the poorly conditioned human that doesn't have the musculoskeletal resiliency and the core stability and all the things needed to run gracefully like an elite runner. And so they can shuffle along with these damaging shoes and, and get injured.
Melanie Avalon
So when you guys developed Peluva and friends, so they come in so many different styles, and I, I don't know if people are even, like, envisioning what they are if you haven't seen one. Go to peluva.com to get an idea of what they look like.
But basically, there's separations for all the toes. You know, it's like minimal footwear and... But I'm curious, like, when you were developing it, so, like, is the concept-- Because like I said, there's so many styles. Is it the, the same concept for every single shoe, and then it's just like the style is different? Or how did you devel- like, even develop this? Like, how many different iterations were gone through before landing on... You know, how many prototypes were made before landing on this?
Brad Kearns
You know, Mark and Kyle spent, like, two and a half years in, of R&D before going to market, which is exceedingly long time. Like, you know, you can get into the, the, the supplement business or the shoe business in, in a few weeks of ordering from the factory, and here comes your shoes that are blue, and they have this and that, and they look like Nikes. But it was a long process, and it started with Mark's fascination with the original five-toe shoe called the Vibram FiveFingers that launched in 2006. And we've been huge fans of these shoes.
I've been wearing them for the past 20 years, and it was a fantastic revelation and transformation of the footwear industry to come out with these barefoot shoes. And the original Vibram shoe was just like a sock material sewn into a thin strip of rubber so that your feet were covered, but they were completely lacking of support, construction, or padding. And it was great for people who were game and pretty well adapted to try these things and then go to the gym and walk around and they, and, and not feel goofy because, you know, you're looking down and, and the person's wearing, like, a foot sock. Part of Mark's dream that we fast-forward to a few years ago wh- when Mark and Kyle started was let's take the barefoot shoe idea that's been around for a while but kind of bring it into a 2.0 version where we're gonna make it stylish, so you're not embarrassed to wear these when you're not in the, the bro gym clanking the weights. And so you see the colors and the different models. There's a winter hiking boot with a furry lining. There's a, a shoe that's made for pickleball. There's a golf shoe. There's a, there's a rugged hiking shoe with a little more extra tread for going on the most rugged trails. And so- All the shoes have in common is this five-toe design, which Mark and Kyle are hanging their hat on till, till the cows come home. That, that is the distinguishing feature where there's a lot of shoes that call themselves barefoot, but it's just with a wide toe box where the, the toes are encased in a single box. And a wide toe box, get-- don't get me wrong, is way, way better than a restrictive toe box that actively damages the feet. But a wide toe box does not actively strengthen the individual toes and the intrinsic muscles of the foot because they're trapped together even in the wide toe box. So you need five toes to have a true authentic barefoot experience. That's kind of the Peluva mission here.
And then the variety and the, the stylishness is something that we can, you know, embrace more people doing more things rather than just a hardcore shoe for, like, the hippie trippy hikers of the early 2000s and the people that were the, the early adopters out there on the cutting edge. You know, the people at Paleo f/x that are walking around with orange glasses during the day and toe shoes and all the garb and, you know, the tallow energy bars in their, in their leather satchel and all that kind of thing. So we wanna be, you know, broader appeal to people that are trying to do the best they can for health and might not be extreme early adopters.
Brad Kearns
But the distinguishing feature that really represents the best and most important innovation probably is that we have a comfortable amount of padding on the sole. So the sole is still... It has to be flat and flexible to be called a minimalist shoe, minimalist shoe. When I say flat, that means there's no change in elevation between the heel and the midfoot, so they call it a zero-drop sole. And by contrast, most running shoes have 10 to 30 millimeters of drop, and that elevation of the heel is probably the most destructive aspect of modern dress shoes or athletic shoes. Because when you elevate the heel off the ground more so than the midfoot, you know, like, like a high heel is the most extreme example, right? You get what I'm talking about. So the, the heel elevation is what really traumatizes the Achilles tendon. It makes it shortened and weaker, and it also messes with the, the arch, so you can have, uh, risk of things like plantar fasciitis. It just weakens your feet and turns you into someone who's gonna become more dependent on things like arch supports and extra cushioning and all the things that we continue to integrate over our entire lives, going into the orthopedic shoes that they give to senior citizens.
So the Peluva is a very, very flexible sole. You can squeeze it together and put the entire shoe in your pocket. You can roll the shoe into a ball, and that allows the foot to participate in the stride pattern, right? And then it's flat. There's no elevation of the heel. But there's the padding all throughout so that your nine millimeters between you and the hard modern surface, like the pavement or the marble floor indoors or whatever. So when we have these naysayers, you know, the original people I talk about saying, "Oh, well, that's, you know, that's not very ancestral because you put padding in your shoe," guess what? You know, our, our ancestors walked on... Let's count on one hand. They walked on, uh, packed African savanna, dirt, grass, sand, snow, and other natural surfaces that are way more forgiving than marble floor, airport tile, or concrete.
Melanie Avalon
It's a very interesting conversation for me because I actually... I don't like shoes. Well, okay, actually that's not true.
I love shoes. I love high heels, which is very problematic. High heels are kind of my equivalent of marathon running. Like, the thing that people-
Brad Kearns
Don't worry, they're not as bad
Melanie Avalon
Like, the thing though that, like, people wanna do, I, I love high heels. Oh, man. But I actually don't... Like, like, in general, I don't like to wear-- Like, I would just rather be barefoot in general, like in my, in my daily life.
And so I was really, I was really excited to try Peluva because I never... Historically, I don't wear encased shoes. I either am barefoot, or I wear sandals, or I wear high, high heels, but, like, open-toed high heels, which, which are still very constricting, obviously, of the toes, but I don't like being... I don't like it being inside, like completely inside of something. And so I got the... I had two different, uh, two different pairs, but I... The ones I wear now are the, the Zen Active slip-ons. And what was so interesting and funny, when I first got them, I was like, "Oh, I think..." I don't know. I was like, "I don't know if it's just, like, my foot is, like, the wrong size, or the shoe is the wrong size." It took a long time for me to actually get the shoes on, like put them on. And Mark assured me that it's because our shoes, you know, our, our toes have become so squished together that you actually have to... Like, I would have to sit down and, like, separate my toes individually and, like, put it into each slot. I was like, "I feel like I'm in kindergarten right now."
Brad Kearns
Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you mentioned this because we are so filled with enthusiasm, and the growth of the company's been fantastic since the first shoe launched in 2023. However, this is a new thing, and it takes some commitment and some patience to get on board.
And we've had the frustrating experience of seeing people excited about the shoe, purchase the shoe, get frustrated putting it on, and then, and then send it back like, "These aren't for me." And as you described perfectly, it's like our years of squeezing the toes together has rendered them poorly functional to the extent that We need to dig in with our fingers to get that baby toe... Darn it, baby toe, get away from the other one. It's, you know, m- mine's completely pressed together against my, my, my fourth toe, and it took a long time for me to become acclimated to where my foot would slide gracefully into the shoe. So when you first get these shoes, and you take them out of the box and you, you put them on, watch our videos for try-on technique because you wanna have the shoe, you know, on the ground pushing against some leverage against the ground. A lot of people are trying to wave them in the air and throw them on like they're throwing on a slipper, and I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no." Put that shoe on the ground, be patient, guide your toes in carefully. But then once it's on, it becomes part of you. It, I mean, Peluva means glove for the foot in Portuguese. Uh, pe and luva is foot glove. And so now you're wearing what I'm sure you will agree is the most comfortable shoe you've ever worn because there's no interference with what your bare feet wanna do.
Melanie Avalon
I'm having all the flashbacks because I was like, "Am I just not understanding here?" Like, can I-
Brad Kearns
Don't worry, it happens to the best of them.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah.
Brad Kearns
My favorite part is, like, when we're at a trade show and I'm interact... able to interact directly with the people and watch them and observe them, and my two favorite observations are how people don't listen when I'm six inches away from them saying, "Put the shoe on the ground, you know, smash this, the heel down so you don't have to worry about that. You have more access, and put the other hand on the tongue." And while I'm speaking, they're waving the shoe in the air trying to slide in like magic, and it's so funny because, like, you know, we just wanna do things our way and rush through the excitement of the trade show.
Your, your mind's going every which direction. And then my other favorite one is when someone sits down, puts them on, and then stands up, like, nine seconds later and starts walking around, and I'm like, "Yeah, I think you're missing a couple toe slots because-"
Melanie Avalon
Yes, that's it.
Brad Kearns
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's like be patient, take a minute or two, or even five at first, and we promise it gets easier and easier as your feet... We, we call it relaxing, realigning, and strengthening when you put more time in with the proper footwear. And it doesn't mean you can't go out and wear your heels that night. It's just for enjoyment, for fashion, for work.
If you're listening and you're working in construction, yep, you're wearing a very sturdy steel-toed boot, and no matter what Brad says, you're probably still gonna wear it tomorrow. But this is a way to allow your feet to recover. And so you mentioned the Zen Active Comfort is kinda like the lounge around shoe that has, like, an optional strap for your, your heel, or you can just kinda wear it like a slipper, and that's a favorite of a lot of elite athletes that we're working with where they are out there training, and they're playing in the NFL and practicing in their tight cleats because they have to or playing in basketball shoes. Or we have a world champion track and field athlete, and you know the track and field athletes are paid very well to endorse the footwear that they're using, the spikes and the running shoes. So I can't even mention the person's name, but this person loves Peluvas because a lot of the training is done in a five-toe barefoot shoe where they're doing drills or jumps or hops or whatever. And then, yes, slip on the spikes to go and do your event. But it's a great recovery shoe for those, those nights out on the town in high heels and whatever else is happening for you to enjoy your life.
Melanie Avalon
Yes, I love it. So listeners, peluva.com, the code IFPODCAST will get you 10% off. So get it for yourself, get it for... It makes a really good present for, like, people in your life. I really like, like, gift-giving where people like getting it as a gift and it actually uplevels their life for health, so.
Brad Kearns
That's so cool. Yeah. I mean, my family has embraced this, and it's so cool to see. Like, my sister's hiking the big trails out in Hawaii in her Peluvas, and my other sister is working as a nurse practitioner and doing those 12-hour shifts and proudly wearing her Peluvas and sharing them with coworkers. And then I should give a plug to my mom, 89 years old, walking around the senior community in these shoes, and very curious comments from many of the people around because they've never seen such a thing.
And just to s- spend a couple moments on the, the concerns we have with seniors today in the world, the falling and the adverse related health consequences have now risen to be the number one cause of demise and death in Americans over age 65. And we now have 14 million seniors falling every year in America, and 43,000 deaths attributed or that started with the fall. They're not falling and hitting their head and dying in big number. What happens is they fall, they break a hip. A senior who falls and breaks a hip, a, a third of them are dead within a year because they become bedridden, and then they weaken, and we talked about VO2 max and their lungs and their heart and their kidneys are not working anymore. And pretty soon they are succumbed to whatever, a minor illness that turns into pneumonia because they can't... their lungs aren't strong enough to cough. So these are big numbers, and the falling is related directly to a loss of foot functionality, a loss of muscle strength, and all the other stuff that we, we might even touch on when it comes to fitness. But it's that awareness of your feet interacting with the earth, proprioception, that is cut off by big cushioned shoes. To me, what's, like, sobering, I was doing the research for the book and discovering things like Medicare. I- if you're not in the US, you, you might be familiar with it, it's the national healthcare system. Once you turn 65 you become part of Medicare, and they look after the medical costs of seniors. Medicare approves two pairs of orthopedic shoes per year as part of your Medicare package. So the seniors are getting pitched these really restrictive padded shoes because their feet are so effed up because they spent years and decades weakening and atrophying them. So now they're wearing these big moon boots where if they happen to catch the edge on the carpet, they can't sense it and react quickly enough to take evasive action. If you're plodding around your, your home barefoot and you're used to it, and you touch on a little pebble that's on the ground, you're gonna immediately experience it and take evasive action and not fall thanks to that heightened awareness. So my contention is that the seniors, more than anyone, should be wearing barefoot shoes because they might not have that strong, powerful stride. They might be shuffling along and doing the best they can, but at least they can sense what's happening underneath them when they're more connected to the ground.
Brad Kearns
But that's kind of like the backwards thinking of, you know, mainstream medicine, where they also get a free pair of orthot-- custom orthotics and all this stuff, and I have members of my extended family who are, you know, going to their podiatrist appointment to get more orthotics and more of this and more of that, and, uh, not a lot of them, uh, hopefully some seniors listening will take this suggestion to try to go spend more time walking around barefoot and getting your feet stronger.
Melanie Avalon
So related to that, to that point, one of the things you were saying that you are passionate about now is this concept of moving more, specifically eat more, move more. So what is this concept of eat more, move more compared to eating less?
Brad Kearns
Beautiful transition. That's, that's why you're the, the star of the mic, Melanie. That's great, and it's kind of neat to reflect on this because I have had some evolution of my thinking a-about diet and nutrition, and of course, I've been in the game for a long time promoting the primal paleo eating patterns, which a lot of people directly associate with low carb. Fair enough, because in comparison to all the crap food that we eat, a lot of it is high in processed carbohydrates, so you can call it whatever you want.
But the more years I've, I've been around this world of progressive health and, and dietary thinking and ancestral health, it's, it's really simple. And, you know, s-seeking out, uh, nutrient-dense foods and avoiding the heavily processed nutrient-deficient foods is pretty much all you need to do for your marching orders, and you're gonna do fine. And then the more extreme you get, then we have to get a little bit more scrutiny and, you know, maybe the next show is gonna be about how carnivore is better than vegan and all that kind of thing. But the common thread that healthy, energetic people have are, you know, choosing natural nutrient-dense foods. So with that as the setup, I'm now looking-- You asked me a personal question about my dietary practices and so forth. My goal is to thrive and have longevity and health span through, uh, extreme devotion to fitness and being the best I can be for as long as I can be, as strong and as fast and as powerful and as well-conditioned as I can be. So with that as my primary goal, which I'm betting my life on, that is gonna give me the best results versus, for example, meditating for those three hours a day instead of working out and fasting for 18 hours a day instead of eating and all the things that maybe some longevity proponents are, are dabbling with. I'm thinking that, um, you know, strength, power, energy, activity, a lot of daily steps, a, a good devotion to fitness as well as, as a devotion to movement, 'cause those are two different things, right? We have to move as our genetic mandate for health, and then we have to layer in fitness if we wanna live a long, healthy, active, energetic life. But I'm gonna count movement and fitness, of course, as, you know, kind of separate objectives there. And in order to maximize my benefits, I'm looking for the maximum nutrient-dense diet and sort of what we might call, like, a fully fueled strategy where I am not layering in other forms of, uh, potential stressors to the body, such as extended fasting coupled with high-intensity training.
Brad Kearns
If you're not doing the high-intensity training, I'm gonna recommend strongly that you integrate high-intensity training, and then in trade, you're going to need to cut back on your extreme devotion to other forms of health practices that prompt a hormetic benefit, such as, uh, extreme calorie restriction or, or carbohydrate restriction or time-restricted feeding and all the things that deliver highly regarded health benefits, but it's a sort of a different pathway than the exercise, and you can't really couple them together because then you might be overloading the stress side of the equation. Does that make sense?
Melanie Avalon
It does. I have so many thoughts about this. Like, in general, I have-- for years, I have a lot of thoughts about this very concept, which essentially this idea that there are a lot of different pathways which support metabolic health, which potentially, potentially support metabolic health and longevity. And this question of the endpoint, so for each individual pathway, you know, how far would that actually get you on the longevity and the metabolic health side of things? And then two, how much of these pathways overlap, undo each other, potentially exacerbate, make things worse together, or are complementary and synergistic, and it's good to combine them? And I've heard, and I've asked this question, and I've, I've read so many different books on longevity and interviewed so many guests, and I hear different things. Some people say, you know, adding these together is additive. Some say they are redundant, so like if you, if you do one pathway, it cancels out doing the other one. So then my, my question about all of it is, I'm sorry, this is like a long-winded way of coming to what you're saying. I wonder how much of it also comes down to what you personally like doing.
So you're, you're saying, for example, that like for you, you've dabbled and done all the things, so keto and fasting and intense exercise and, and for you now, you feel like, you know, focusing on the exercise equation and then fueling to support that, recovering to support that, resting to support that, that's what you see as your path to like, you know, the best path for you for fitness, health, longevity. Like, for me, I don't like-- I mean, I like moving throughout the day. I, I do. I like moving. I hate being sedentary. I very much dislike that. However, I have and I never have had a, a desire to do the intense athletic stuff. I, I don't, I just don't like it, like period. Like it's not fun. So like for me, I much prefer focusing on like the diet side of things. So I love fasting. Like it makes me feel great. I would like that to be my, my main thing when it comes to like the longevity path and then s- and then support it with like breaking up sedentary with movement throughout the day and supporting muscle. So like I wear weights around the like when I do grocery shopping, and I do Emsculpt, and like, I don't, I don't know if that counts. But my point is, I just wonder how much of this is unique to what resonates with the person, with the, with the-- If we're gonna like say something is consistent with everything, it would be, like you said, a nut- I think nutrient-dense food and not overly stressing yourself. But I don't even know if there was a question there. I-- We, we, we can say though that, I mean, so A, what are your thoughts on everything I just said? And then B, what are your thoughts on they'll often say that, you know, calorie restriction is the only verified way to extend lifespan?
Brad Kearns
Yeah, that's great stuff. I think your listeners know what we mean by pathways, and it's a really interesting discussion. Redundant pathways would be the term for like a cold plunge gives you the same hormonal experience as, let's say, a, a sprint workout or like Mike Mutzel's really popular YouTube video where he, he cites research that autophagy benefits peak at forty-eight hours of fasting. So that's when you really get this organ renewal effect and the blood markers and all these things. And then he cites other research revealing that a one-hour high-intensity workout in the gym delivers similar autophagy benefits to a forty-eight hour fast. And so those are getting the same benefit from redundant pathways. Or Paul Saladino in the, in the animal-based game saying that a cold plunge gives you a, a similar benefit to the plant anti-nutrients that might have adverse reaction despite providing highly regarded and validated benefits with the antioxidants and so forth. So that's, that's the pathway thing.
And I have a couple big picture thoughts here on, on the subject. And the first one is we have to acknowledge that we are living inside a bubble right now of a grossly overfed, undernourished, and underactive modern population. Dr. Phil Maffetone, a book called "The Overfat Pandemic," he contends that ninety-two percent of the world's population is what he qualifies as overfat, and some of them would be considered what's called skinny fat, where they have visceral fat accumulation despite looking slender and not having visible accumulation of a lot of subcutaneous fat. But they're unhealthy, metabolically unhealthy specimens. So if, if we're in this bubble, we have to like take everything spoken with a grain of salt because for most people, um, you know, you should get your fasting game on like, like 10X from whatever, what- whatever's going on because most people never fast or even think about it. They're just on the hunt for Rice Krispies for free in the little box at the, uh, the Embassy Suites. And so like all conversation has to flow downstream from this disastrous state of condition right now where the, where we're, we in America are the fattest, sickest population in the history of humanity. We're number one on the obesity charts with two-thirds of Americans classified as metabolically unhealthy, probably ninety-two percent is more accurate. And what's so funny also is like we're number forty-six on the lifespan right now rankings. And so like you watch the Winter Olympics, um, talking about the athletes, and USA's number one. We've won the medal count, and, uh, we, we beat China, and then Norway was third, but we're number forty-six in the, in the shit that really matters. So that said, the average listener of the podcast is probably, you know, well forward of the mainstream clueless approach to food choices and taking care of one's health, and so they're interested in strategies and techniques. So I guess, you know, one warning is don't stack too many pathways or stressors together like, like I already said, and that seems pretty sensible.
Brad Kearns
But rather than like overthinking it, we have to, you know, figure this stuff out for ourselves. And the appetite Is really, really good at that.
So we talked offline about what are some potential subjects we're gonna talk-- uh, topics we're gonna discuss, and, um, how much protein, uh, do you think, uh, Brad, what's your opinion, and what's next week's expert opinion? Who the hell is really aware of how much protein is going in every day and measuring it? Or, or, I mean, some people are aware probably using, using tools, but, like, your appetite is gonna guide you so beautifully and expertly to consuming the optimal amount of nutrition and macronutrients if you just let it and get out of your own way and don't put in these hyper-palatable foods and things that are nutrient deficient and leave you wanting more because you're not getting, you know, what you need. So I'm, I'm all about, like, simplifying it and also, like, individualizing and staying away from, you know, proselytizing that this is the way to go, and if you're not on board with, you know, plant-based, you're a loser and you're destroying the planet. I, I disagree with that, and I also highly support people who are deeply immersed into an extreme approach and it's working for them. That's super awesome. You know? They, they've, they've tried and tested and figured things out. You know, the less controversial we can be and the more supportive of everyone and the more open-minded we can be as well, that's when we're starting to make some good progress.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah, that's essentially literally how I feel with everything. I'm like, people just, like, find, find what works for you.
So you did mention to me that-- So, like, with the, with the fasting and stuff and, and training, you mentioned you will do some fasted training because just from a digestion or, like, you know, a GI standpoint, it's, like, more comfortable. How do you-- 'cause we get-- it's probably if I were to think back on the, you know, decade or so that I've done this show, there's a few questions that we get over and over and over hundreds of times, and one of the biggest ones is, like, fasted training. So how do you fuel your activity levels that you do?
Brad Kearns
Yeah. I mean, you know, Mark Sisson's been talking about metabolic flexibility for so long. I think he coined the term. He says, "I, I don't know if I coined the term or not." I'm like, "Well, everyone's saying it now," but it means having adaptability and the ability to burn a variety of fuel sources as needed when the time comes, and that includes being able to access and burn your own stored body fat whenever you need to. So this allows one who makes healthy lifestyle choices to not sweat and stress that much about the exact particulars of, you know, the meal timing and your window and your macros and all that.
I also think that we all-- we have a real problem with people making excuses, rationalizations, and shortcuts. And I'm calling out my own good friends where we'll sit down, have a conversation, and they know that I write books about diet and I'm pretty into this stuff. And, like, my, my friend, you know, will, will, will come in late and, uh, will say like, "Brad, nachos, healthy or not?" I'm like, "I don't know, man. Do you like them? Did you buy them at the 7-Eleven or the, the convenience store or did you go to, you know, a really high quality, uh, taqueria that makes everything fresh? I'll, I'll throw down some nachos, especially if I just finished a hard workout," right? So there's a certain sense of, you know, getting the fuel you need to support that active energetic lifestyle, and that's, you know, that, that's about as, as simple as you can get.
Melanie Avalon
Well, it's, it's kind of like, you know, the-- remember the whole-- what was the guy that-- the Twinkie-- like he ate the-
Brad Kearns
Oh, yeah, the Twinkie diet?
Melanie Avalon
We recently profiled that study on this show because they made it sound like-- I don't-- do you remember it? Like, the guy was like, "I ate all..." You know, he basically ate Twinkies and he-- like all of his health markers improved, but it's because he was really calorie restricted.
What they left out of that, like, in the headlines, was that he actually-- it wasn't just-- it was not just Twinkies. Like, it basically-- he was eating other, like, nutritious stuff as well around it.
Brad Kearns
Oh, well, how about that? He's sneaking in some, he's sneaking in some quality meals. That's funny.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. And apparently he would have the, he would have the quality stuff when he was having, like, the dinner with his family. He didn't want his kids seeing him just eating, like, junk all the time. But it was still severely calorie restricted, which actually-- and then, and, you know, and, and the takeaway was not only did he lose weight, but all of these other health biomarkers improved.
It's like the ongoing debate about calories versus nutrients versus all the things. But I, I'm dying to hear your thoughts on something now we get asked about all the time, obviously, GLP-1s. So w- like, what do you think about that? People-- especially because you were just, you know, talking about the importance of fueling yourself nutritiously and, you know, recovering from athletic activity with, with, you know, proper nutrition. Now we have all these people on GLP-1s that, you know, are just not eating. I mean, definitely on the protein, often not eating enough protein, losing a ton of weight, and experiencing, you know, like, health improvements in a lot of biomarkers. So yeah, what do you think?
Brad Kearns
Yeah. I mean, it's-- when you're in a crisis, like, you know, you go to the ER with, with a cut on your finger, you're gonna be seen in seventeenth order because there are people that need emergency attention. And we're kind of like, you know, reaching for an easy way or a shortcut rather than just lifestyle change. But if your blood markers are off and you're suffering from obesity and related conditions, we gotta do something about that as first urgent priority.
That's the emergency room analogy in case listeners are not following there, right? So it's like, oh my God, this person's in big trouble. Here, let's give them something that is guaranteed to help them drop excess body mass, and then we'll check their blood in a month and, and proclaim them to be healthier. Of course- I try to, you know, completely escape free of the system and putting a prescription medication into my body unless I need it and I have a, a, a serious illness, then I'll take whatever you give me to heal. But the medication is really designed for, you know, acute conditions that can't be addressed by lifestyle. Now we're kinda using them as like crutches with definitely very concerning long-term consequences, and that's the part that, you know, you're, you're heading down a wrong path if you, if you're doing the shortcut route rather than a day-by-day alteration of choices and habit patterns.
Melanie Avalon
So playing devil's advocate, so what if you are using these maybe at like a lower dose and then, you know, they are-- 'cause they are essentially peptides that are activating certain hormones. Like, they are putting the body into, from my understanding, a more metabolically sensitive place.
So say you're doing that, and then with that, you're eating healthy and supporting muscle and all the things. What makes something a shortcut and the easy way out versus a smart tool in your arsenal to optimize what you're doing?
Brad Kearns
Yeah. I mean, there's the philosophical question of the decade because we're faced with all these, especially in the, the biohacking world, like hormone replacement I think is the biggest example that comes to mind for me. My resolute choice is to go, uh, natural in every way possible, and I wanna protect my male hormone status by getting enough sleep and doing the proper exercise and managing stress and all that.
I'm highly influenced by people that are huge fans of hormone replacement therapy and feeling great. All the adverse side effects that we've been scared to think about for decades have now been-- have now turned out to be overblown. You know, like it was always like, "Oh, you're taking testosterone. Well, you're increasing your risk of prostate cancer, so good luck. I hope you enjoy your big muscles." And now it's revealed that healthy sex hormone status is protective against all kinds of different cancers in- including prostate cancer. So now it's like, what's the downside? Doesn't seem to be a lot of downsides or negative side effects of boosting your testosterone to what it was in younger decades. So I'm trying to remain open-minded about it. I also have a outside variable, which is I wanna compete in the masters track and field where taking hormones is forbidden and, and there's drug testing. And so I wanna see, for kicks, what this, this beat-up 61-year-old body can do and be the best 61-year-old that I can be rather than artificially turn back the clock to be a, a 40-year-old type of specimen with more testosterone running through my bloodstream and all the benefits that I accrue from that. Now, if we're talking 10 years from now and I'm 71 and I feel more beat up and I'm doing everything I can and my blood values are still, you know, they're dropping, dropping, dropping, I might want to look to modern medical advancements to see how I can optimize, and I, I certainly don't denigrate anyone for, for going in that direction. The problem I have is... And again, I'm gonna stick with the testosterone analogy here because if you are inflamed and unhealthy and have accumulated visceral fat around the abdomen as a, uh, representing your inflamed, unhealthy lifestyle, you are not going to benefit from that outside infusion of testosterone like you think. In fact, there's a-- what happens is a phenomenon called aromatization, where the outside or the extra testosterone is converted into estrogen in an unhealthy, inflamed specimen. The visceral fat secretes inflammatory cytokines into the bloodstream, and they're, uh, part influence this aromatization thing happening. So there's no free lunch if you're going to try to go to the cutting-edge longevity strategies. You have to step in that door to the clinic with healthy lifestyle habits in place. And I guess that you could s- make the same argument for GLP-1. I, I don't think it's a, a big win to eat less Jack in the Box because you're under the influence of a peptide that's curbing your appetite.
Brad Kearns
I mean, it's a small win, and if that's where, if that's where you wanna go with your life is to take this, take that, and still insist on putting in, you know, the wrong stuff into your body or i- ignoring the, the, the importance of sleep and stress management, that might not be as big of a reward as doing everything you can and then looking to the tricks and tools and cutting-edge protocols that we s- hear about with the, the guests of specialized expertise on your show or when we go to the trade shows and see the, you know, the red lights and the, the, the, the stress management techniques. And that, that stuff's all great, but I'm hoping that these people are showing up to Eutimonía or Hack Your Health are the two upcoming shows that, that are coming up.
I hope they're coming in with good sleep habits, they're on good terms with their significant other, and prioritizing relationship and trying to be the best parent they can be and trying to get out into fresh air and sunshine rather than just, you know, buying their way to a higher health status.
Melanie Avalon
Actually interesting on the testosterone front because I met at the last biohacking conference, which you were-- How, how Brad, B Rad, I've-- how do we both go to many conferences and we're never there at the same time? Can you please-
Brad Kearns
I know. What the heck is that, listeners? What is- We're just so-- It's, it's, it's such a whirlwind. That's all we can say right now.
Melanie Avalon
I know. It's like two passing ships in the night. But the last biohacking conference I went to-- Wha- oh, wait, did I meet him? No, no, no, two years ago. There was one booth. I think I asked him at the time, and I don't know if it's changed, but I think he was the only pharmaceutical booth at the entire conference.
Um, I had him on the show, and it was for Kyzatrex, the oral testosterone, like FDA-approved medication. I don't know if you've heard of that. He m- he made like the first oral testosterone. But it was just really interesting, like interviewing him because I don't know. I, I'm just f- I'm fascinated by, and this is very philosophical, but I'm really, really fascinated by how we view what is okay or right or wrong. Like mor- morality gets obs- ascribed to things that people put in their body. And I do agree like on the foundational pillars, like you-- the ones you just summarized so eloquently and nicely, like sleep. Sleep is honestly probably the thing I like feel most strongly about. Like I have to have my sleep, and I'm proud of it. Sleep, nutrition, you mentioned social, like that's so, so important. I, I recently interviewed Ben Rein, Why Brains... Is it Why Brains Need Friends? That blew my mind about the benefits of, you know, social benefits for our health and wellness. So I feel like there-- and like being, and being-- Well, I don't like being outside, but being outside . Um, so there are these like these pillars, but then-- and nutrition. But then beyond that, I'm just-- I'm really, really intrigued by like how we judge or how we view these different things that people do, especially with the GLP-1s now and, and like the testosterone like you were saying. You could compete in the Enhanced Games, B Rad.
Brad Kearns
Right. That, that-- I think that's-- You know, your reflections are brought to light with, with something like that where, you know, e-everything, all the lines we're drawing are arbitrary. Like, you know, creatine is a, a very tested and highly effective supplement, but it's still a supplement. I guess, you know, there's, there's a clear line in the sand when it comes to a, a drug effect that's overriding or influencing gene expression directly versus taking a lot of vitamins and, and, and things that are just kind of supporting metabolic function. So that's a, that's a pretty clear one there.
But, you know, we're getting, um, into AI age, and who knows what's gonna-- what medicine's gonna be like in five years or 10 years. And I think hopefully a lot of progress will be made, so we don't have to, you know, struggle and suffer from early disease and demise and, you know, at the same time, like we can stop eating this, this crap and, you know, have that be an alternative pathway to, uh, cutting-edge medical and, and performance science, you know?
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. Yeah. I, I-- we'll, we'll definitely see where, where this all goes in the future.
Which speaking of the future, so are you currently writing a book now? Another book? How many books have you written, Brad? Do you know off the top of your head?
Brad Kearns
Yeah. It's like, uh, uh, it's like 23 a-and it's been like nonstop since I think 2003 or something. I've always had a project and then the next and the next. As you said, a lot of them were w-with Mark Sisson, including the most recent one, Born to Walk. And I'm-- I do feel concerned that like not a lot of us are having the patience or the attention span to sit down and read a book.
Nevertheless, I am working on a new book, and it's about sprinting, which is like the, the most forgotten and misunderstood and misapplied aspect of fitness, but delivers by far the most return on investment for overall fitness, vitality, and longevity. And most people just don't even realize what true sprinting is. They confuse high-intensity interval training with sprinting. But when we talk about the anaerobic system of the body, hopefully you're familiar with the difference between aerobic and anaerobic, right? Listeners, that means with oxygen or without oxygen. So the anaerobic muscle fibers, the fast-twitch muscle fibers, and the anaerobic energy systems are there to perform brief, explosive, extremely fast and powerful efforts, and then you exhaust quickly. So if we watch the hundred meter race in the Olympics or the Enhanced Games, they're running for 10 seconds, and then they stop, and they're going, you know, incredible speed, 27 miles an hour for the human. That's a sign of, you know, tremendous fitness and athletic competency. But it's completely different from watching the Olympians running in the 5K or the 10K, where they're going for 13 minutes or 26 minutes, and that's, uh, a highly aerobic activity where you're burning energy with oxygen rather than that brief explosive type of fitness effort where you're burning energy without oxygen. The thing about the fast-twitch muscle fibers and the anaerobic conditioning is that this is the thing that we lose very quickly with aging. We're much better able to preserve our aerobic conditioning, our endurance as we age. Witness all the people, the, the elderly people walking around the park, even into their 90s or whatever. They're s- they're still putting in their, their, their morning walk, or they're doing their Tai Chi, or, you know, they can, they can, uh, still, you know, go for a decent hike or whatever it is. But when's the last time most of us sprinted? Probably in our sporting activities in our school years, and then we go on and pick up things like jogging or even the fitness group classes in the gym, like a spin class or a boot camp. Due to the duration of the- effort. These are aerobic activities, even CrossFit, even HYROX, all these things that seem like intense. You gotta do the battle ropes, and then you gotta jump on the box, and then you have to, uh, lift a weight. It's a grueling effort that does require some, you know, explosive movements. But when you're in there for an hour, by exercise physiology definition, you are performing an extreme endurance effort with a vast majority of the energy system used is the aerobic system, not the anaerobic system.
Brad Kearns
So to answer the question a, a little-- to, to wrap it up here, the, the book is about how to integrate these brief explosive efforts that are interspersed with extensive rest periods between so that you can come out and perform another brief explosive effort of similar quality. So unlike high-intensity interval training, where it's like, "Hey, I went to spin class. It was so tough. We did 10 sprints of 30 seconds with a 30-second rest, and then another, and then another, and by the seventh one I was dying," you know. And so, you know, HIIT is very popular. It delivers a lot of a-athletic conditioning benefits, but it's an endurance, an extreme endurance effort to do those classes with the minimal rest, and then you gotta pump out another, and then you gotta pump out another.
It has nothing to do with true sprinting. So I want the term to be used correctly from now on and for people to sprinkle in-- 'cause again, these are very short duration efforts that you don't have to do that frequently either. So like once a week, instead of doing your StairMaster for 45 minutes watching TV, you can go and do bursts of 10-second bursts, and then an easy recovery period of a, a minute or even two minutes, and then another 10-second burst, and it really feels great to the body. I know you said you hate high intensity, and that's because the main workout programming of mainstream fitness is designed to have you struggling and suffering and finishing the workout feeling like you accomplished something and having your body coursing with endorphins, the feel-good hormones that come from extreme effort. But over time, the body tends to avoid this type of pain and suffering because it's, it's grueling, and sprinting is not like that at all. Like, anyone can make a 10-second effort, and believe me, it's not easy. You're breathing hard and you- you're, you're pushing it all the way, but then you get to rest for a long time, and then you do a handful, and that is the meat of the workout. And so you feel energized and exhilarated after rather than exhausted and depleted, which is typically how you might feel after a HIIT session or after a training session from a, a triathlete or an endurance runner where you're just slogging along and trying to hang in there for an hour or even longer.
Melanie Avalon
Okay, so this is actually so interesting that you said all of that, and an important clarification that I was gonna say hearing you talk. Well, first of all, very good to know that the concept of sprinting is misunderstood.
Like, so I will look forward to clarifying that def- you, you clarifying that definition, um, with the world at large. Interestingly, I was gonna say, like, if I were to-- So what I don't like about... I, maybe I said it too, like generally about the, the exercise and the activity. What I don't like is I-- like, I have no interest in, like, definitely endurance type stuff, and I have no interest in, like, going to the gym for hours and hours and hours. When it does come to activity, I do like something fast and quick and like what you're describing right now. And interestingly, B Rad, I don't know how telling this is or not, but you know, like in elementary school and middle school and stuff, like the, the, in high school, the relay race thing? Well, first of all, does that qualify as sprinting?
Brad Kearns
Sure.
Melanie Avalon
Okay. Well, fun fact.
Brad Kearns
You kick butt?
Melanie Avalon
They always picked the, the top four fastest people were-- I was always, I was always on it. I was always one of the people.
Brad Kearns
Uh, have you done your DNA testing, I assume?
Melanie Avalon
I have.
Brad Kearns
They have a gene report for your ratio of muscle fibers. What was it?
Melanie Avalon
Is it only, like... Is it only, like, three options, or is there a spectrum? I'm either, like, mixed or, like, mixed, uh, leaning towards sprinting side.
Brad Kearns
Yeah. They give you a percentage of muscle fiber composition of strength power versus endurance, and I was actually stunned to get my report, and my, my, my makeup is 56% strength power and 44% endurance. And it was a real epiphany because when I was training like an extreme endurance professional athlete in the triathlon scene, the, the guys, the, the boys that I trained with, they were, they were able to withstand the punishment way more than me. I was very fragile, and I would get tired, and I couldn't wake up the next day and go for another four hours when they went seven hours the previous day.
But someone who has that endurance adaptability, they won't have that explosive, you know, speed. They-- maybe they weren't the fastest one on the playground, or they didn't get picked in the top four like you, but they have the ability to go all day, and I was fighting against my genetic makeup the whole time that I was training as a triathlete. So had I known that genetic report back when, before they had those such, such things in the '80s and '90s when I was a triathlete, I would have taken more rest days and perhaps honed my strengths of explosiveness and power and then been more careful with the volume of endurance training that we all thought was the key to success in long-distance sports, which it is, but it has to be something that you can absorb and benefit from and withstand that punishment without breaking down. And so I, you know, I was very fragile, and one of the things working against me was a genetic makeup that was more balanced.
Melanie Avalon
This is so, so I was trying to remember-- God, I have so many different reports, like genetic reports Okay. I don't know how many different ones talked about it, but let's see.
My, my Wild Health report says my genetic training preference is pretty balanced at 60%, likely to benefit from both power and endurance athletics almost equally. Yeah, so that was what I was thinking. But s- but, but 60% moving more toward... Oh, no, moving more towards the endurance side.
Brad Kearns
Well, I mean, that's, uh, yeah, balanced is right, but then compare, contrast to, like, what we're doing out there with mainstream fitness is an hour-long grueling session in the gym or on the outdoors, and these are 98% aerobic system contribution and very minimal anaerobic contribution. And that's kind of a, a surprising revelation, especially for many endurance athletes who, who talk in the vernacular like, "Yeah, a marathon's a long race, and then I'm gonna do some, some speed training to do my, uh, 5K, which is a short, uh, you know, faster race." And it's like a 5K is 95% aerobic system because it lasts from, you know, 13 minutes for the elite to 20 or 30 minutes for the average finisher. And so the, the anaerobic system, the strength power, is for short bursts of, you know, up to around 30 seconds it's predominantly anaerobic and then starts to kick into being more aerobic, which is using oxygen rather than, you know, doing full-bore, fast, uh, maximum muscle contractions, not even needing oxygen. For example, you could hold your breath and sprint in the Olympic 100 meters with no, no ill effects because y- you don't even need oxygen for the really explosive stuff. Or for example, you know, lift four reps of the deadlift or six reps. Sometimes they do hold their breath to, to brace their, uh, their abdomen and it's just a, a completely different energy system that we're neglecting because we're obsessed with time and calories and all the things that we erroneously believe are supporting goals like weight loss.
Melanie Avalon
Wow. Wow, now I'm really exci- maybe I'm gonna read your, your new book and realize I should have been a sprinter since clearly... It's just, it's so weird to me that I was, like, clearly decent at it, but I just don't like it, so I never pursued it.
I also, I als- also always won the long jump.
Brad Kearns
That's great. Yeah, that's, that's extremely, you know, that's a, that's a single rep of explosive power with the pure ATP creatine phosphate system. That's the energy stored inside your muscle cell. You don't even have to e- engage with, like, uh, glucose burning when you're doing a long jump 'cause it only lasts for, you know, a, a five-second run up and a, a half a second flight time.
So if you... Did you have the CAROL bike, uh, before? Didn't you talk to those guys?
Melanie Avalon
Yes.
Brad Kearns
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, their workout protocol was based on really respected research showing that amazing fitness and weight loss benefits could be accrued from a workout that was two 20-second sprints, and the whole workout lasted 12 minutes.
And everyone's like, "What?" You know? And it's completely validated and very effective to work that top end and send those genetic signals for dropping excess body fat and building muscle. The, that strong genetic signal comes from maximum intensity efforts.
Melanie Avalon
Yeah. So okay. Well, I will, I will look forward to that. Maybe I will start... I, I should be doing more of it o- I mean, obviously.
Brad Kearns
Yeah. And I think, you know, so many people listening are in the same boat where they have a subconscious aversion to the torturous hour-long boot camp that they did devotedly for 12 weeks until they, uh, they, they, they caught a cold, and then they missed a week, and then they traveled, and then it's like deep down inside your bones and your brain you're, you're averse to it, so you avoid it because it's too difficult.
And I, I feel, like, so passionate about this because so many people are turned off to fitness because the offerings are extreme and stressful and not appropriate for long-term, uh, development. Now, the endurance thing that we talked about earlier is a completely different deal where we're talking about a less destructive form of addiction than many other addictions. So if you were first addicted to a substance and now you're extreme runner, that's a huge improvement in lifestyle and all that, but it's still an addiction and we still see all kinds of deliberate pain and suffering inflicted upon th- th- the person in the name of whatever, an outlet for their obsessive compulsive personality tendencies or whatever. But when it comes to gym culture and group exercise and even the personal training scene i- in - in some ways, people are getting pushed too hard and getting subconsciously averse or they get discouraged because when you push too hard and when you do too many of those HIIT workouts with insufficient recovery, what happens is what I call the Ben & Jerry's effect where you set your alarm, you wake up for the 6:00 AM spin class, you kick butt with the loud music and the peppy instructor for 47 minutes, you come out and 12 hours later someone just finished the entire pint and it was all subconscious and it was all appetite d- dysregulation due to the exhausting depleting nature of that 6:00 AM workout. So the 6:00 AM workout is paired with the 6:00 PM Ben & Jerry's.
Melanie Avalon
Yep. Yep. Well, well, this has been amazing. So friends, hopefully you've had some paradigm shifts today and go get Peluvas now to fully optimize the, uh, the movement that you are doing in your life.
And like I said, they come in so many styles. Do not be disheartened if it takes you a little bit to get your foot in at the beginning. It does not mean that the shoe is broken or you are broken. You just need to, um, like Brad said, it just takes It takes some, um, time. So your, your suggestion was put your, put the heel down fir- wait, what was your suggestion for putting them on?
Brad Kearns
Yeah, y- if you smash the heel down, like of any shoe, right? You have more access to... Your hand can get in there and help the toes more, and then, you know, flip the heel on at the end, because of course that's easy.
Melanie Avalon
Okay. Yes.
Brad Kearns
Yeah, yeah, yeah. A good tip. Hot tip.
Melanie Avalon
So for that, go to peluva.com. Discount code IFPODCAST will get you 10% off. Brad also has a handful of free PDF e-book downloads, so go get those.
Those will be at bradkearns.com. And again, I cannot recommend enough his newest book, Born to Walk. It will blow your mind on everything when it comes to walking, running. We didn't even talk about, we talked about it with Mark, though, like the history of the marathon, and the arbitrariness behind it, and yeah, there's just so much, so much in that book. So B-rad, thank you so much for all that you do. It's always such a pleasure.
Brad Kearns
Oh my gosh, a great conversation. We hit on so many important points.
I know it was fast-moving, but I think those big-picture takeaways of backing off from the, the extreme things that we see in fitness, and perhaps even in diet paired with devoted exercise patterns, you know, make sure not to overdo it. But then also you gotta thread that needle and not be too lax because we're in the world of e- extremely unhealthy is the norm. Like we were talking about testosterone, and I've, I've done some shows about this, and like got my report from the lab and patted myself on the back that I'm in the 98th percentile with my testosterone. Then I'm like, "Wait a second. This is the fattest, sickest population in the history of humanity, and a shitty country ranked 46 in longevity. So if I'm not in the 98th percentile, I'm t- I'm, I'm by definition terrible," 'cause the 50th percentile is horrific.
Melanie Avalon
Yep. I think about that quite a lot.
Brad Kearns
We wanna be on top, people, especially if you're listening to this show. You're not an average person, so don't be average in any way.
Melanie Avalon
No, never. Never. Well, thank you so much, B-rad. Can't wait to actually see you sometime in real life. My best in real life friend I've never met in real life.
Brad Kearns
Incredible.
Melanie Avalon
Yep. All right. Well, enjoy the rest of your day, and we'll talk soon.
Brad Kearns
Da, da, da, da, da, da. That's a wrap. Thanks for listening to the IF podcast, people.
Melanie Avalon
That's right. Bye.
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joiner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.