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Welcome to Episode 302 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LOMI: If you want to start making a positive environmental impact or just make clean up after dinner that much easier, Lomi is perfect for you! turn Your Kitchen Scraps Into Dirt, To Reduce Waste, Add Carbon Back To The Soil, And Support Sustainability! Get $50 Off Lomi At lomi.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

MANUKORA: Support Optimal Immune And Digestive Health With Manukora. Delicious, Raw, Sustainable, Traceable Manuka Honey From New Zealand. Manukora Superpower Honey Is High In Antioxidants, Prebiotics, And The Natural Antibacterial MGO Compound. Go To manukora.com/ifpodcast For A FREE Pack Of Honey Sticks With Your Order!

Athletic Greens: 75 high-quality vitamins, minerals, whole-food sourced ingredients, probiotics, and adaptogens in one delicious scoop! Get A FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase at athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - LOMI: Get $50 Off Lomi At Lomi.Com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

4:10 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

AVALONX SUPPLEMENTS: Get 10% Off Serrapeptase 125, Magnesium 8 And Berberine 500 At avalonx.us And mdlogichealth.com With The Code MelanieAvalon!

Text AVALONX To 877-861-8318 For A One Time 20% Off Code for avalonx.us!

Check out Cynthia Thurlow's line of supplements and latest releases at cynthiathurlow.com/supplements!

21:00 - MANUKORA: Go To Manukora.Com/Ifpodcast For A FREE Pack Of Honey Sticks With Your Order!

25:00 - Listener Q&A: EIleen - What would consider your best life hack?

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #175 - Seth Stephens-Davidowitz

29:00 - Listener Q&A: Mary Jane - What are some of the other habits or things do you do you’ve maybe never talked about on the pod? Like infrared saunas, ankle/wrist weights, etc. but new ones.

42:30 - Listener Q&A: Mary Jane - Like switching to Redmonds or more natural salts or single source olive oil, what are some other relatively inexpensive and accessible changes people can make for the better?

DRY FARM WINES: Low Sugar, Low Alcohol, Toxin-Free, Mold-Free, Pesticide-Free, Hang-Over Free Natural Wine! Use The Link dryfarmwines.com/melanieavalon To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

51:30 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast.

53:15 - Listener Q&A: Laura - What is your favorite vacation and or what’s your bucket list trip?

1:00:25 - Listener Q&A: Danielle - Given the opportunity to go to space, would you go? What would you want to study there?

1:05:15 - Listener Q&A: Danielle - Do you listen to any non health related podcasts?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 302 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Friends, I am so excited to tell you about one of my new favoritest things ever. Okay, so you guys know I eat a lot of cucumbers. I don't think that this is any secret and I find myself throwing away pounds, yes, pounds of cucumber peels every single night. I felt so awful just throwing it in the trash. It seemed like such a waste. I'd always wanted to try composting, aka a sustainable approach to turning food waste into healthy dirt, but it seemed really intimidating and not very practical. So, it was on the to-do list for quite a while so you can imagine how thrilled I was, when a company called Lomi by Pela, reached out to me wanting to sponsor the show. Normally, I have to think a little bit about all the brands that reach out to me. I was an immediate yes. I was so excited. I got my Lomi device. It is incredible. Lomi allows me to turn my food scraps into dirt with the push of a button. Lomi is a countertop electric composter that turns scraps to dirt in under 4 hours. By comparison, if you were to compost naturally, it would probably take at the shortest around 6-8 weeks and maybe even up to a year. But nope, with Lomi, I can literally do it in 4 hours. There is no smell when it runs and it is super quiet. I've been using Lomi for a few months now. It is substantially reducing my waste. I was taking out garbage bags all the time. It's probably cut that down by about 30% to 50%. In fact, I love it so much that I bought another Lomi for my parents for Christmas. Now with my Lomi, I throw out weightless garbage. That means that waste is not going to landfills and producing methane. Instead, I turn my waste into nutrient-rich dirt that you can actually use to feed your plants.

Lomi is super cool. It has three different settings. It has the Eco-Express setting, which is low energy consumption, provides the fastest results, and is good for your food waste. It has the Lomi Approved setting that's 5 to 8 hours and you can actually put in Lomi Approved bioplastics and other compostable commercial goods, and packaging that are Lomi Approved. There's the Grow mode that's 24 hours. It's low heat with a longer duration and that actually preserves the microorganisms the most to help the soil and promote carbon storage in the soil. I am all about regenerative agriculture, so the fact that we can help put carbon back into the soil is so, so incredible. Lomi is something I have instantly fallen in love with and if you guys are anything like me, I know you will as well, turn your food waste into dirt with the press of a button with Lomi. Use the code IFPODCAST to save $50 at lomi.com/ifpodcast. That's L-O-M-I dotcom slash ifpodcast with the promo code IFPODCAST to save $50. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things, like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the new born. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook Group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

Lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 302 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I feel like it's been so long since we've talked.

Cynthia Thurlow: I know. [laughs] I was about to say during the holidays, appropriately so we all take a break from things we do within our business. I was texting with Melanie before I got on, and I was like, we're doing this episode, and this is the format. It's amazing how just a couple of weeks, you kind of feel like you're getting out of practice.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this episode airs end of January, but for us recording, we just started January. How was your New Year's Eve?

Cynthia Thurlow: Very low key. I'll be completely transparent with you and with listeners that last year we were in Costa Rica, which was wonderful. But my boys were pretty adamant that they did not want to travel for Christmas. Because of poor weather, my mom was not able to come as early as she had wanted to and had to leave a little bit early as well. She lives in a rural part of the East Coast, and so they always get more snow and ice. We, the four of us, I mean, I have teenagers, we all stayed in, we had an amazing dinner and then we watched movies and I was asleep before the ball dropped. With the exception of my teenagers, of course, they go to bed. They're like nocturnal animals, they're up really late and they sleep in every day. My husband and I were in bed before the ball dropped, and we've had so many years of really late New Year's Eve parties and it was really nice to just go to bed and have a really nice meal and just have it be low key. Like we didn't have a lot on the calendar and after the book launch and how busy 2022 was and all the travel that I did, even in December, it was just nice to slow down. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, mine was really good. My sister and I went to a really fun party at the Waldorf Astoria. I love any chance to dress up really fancy, so if there's ever a situation where I can maybe find something to do that, I'm all about it. So, I don't like being out crazy and I don't like loud and I don't like crowds, and I actually don't like-- Even though I'm a crazy late night owl, I don't like being out at midnight. Like, I don't want to be not at my home. It's not normally something I would gravitate towards, but we had a blast. It was good.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm good. I think that's what we all want is if we're going to start celebrating the last day of the year into the first day of the new year, celebrating it, however, makes us happy. I think that's really important. Like, when we lived in Northern Virginia, there was another family, probably our closest friends from our old neighborhood, and for years we would just have New Year's Eve at each other's houses and we would make these incredible dinners. Our boys were all about the same age and we had years where all of us were up till 02:00 or 03:00 AM in the morning just having fun amongst ourselves and so, I agree with you. In my 20s and probably into my early 30s and my teens, I did a lot of late-night parties. I agree with you, as an introvert, I'm completely happy with less people and less noise, and just kind of eating a really good meal and just being around people that I really like.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Very excited for this year and all the things. I feel like there are great things in store.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely, absolutely. By the time this episode comes out, I think we're going to have the announcements for my next supplement, which is exciting. I know for you, you just had a new supplement that came out. How are things going with berberine?

Melanie Avalon: So, well. I'm just so grateful and so excited that it's really resonating with listeners and I think it's doing a lot of good and oh yeah, that was something that was really exciting. There were a few different articles that came out over the holidays and one was in Yahoo News. It was like a countdown of wellness products for 2023. It's really exciting to see things like that. I mean, it makes me feel like a real entrepreneur. I don't really feel like a real business woman, but then when things like that happen, I'm like, "Okay, maybe." [chuckles] In a line up next to other, "real things." So, I'm excited. I don't think I know your next supplement.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's myo-inositol. So, for listeners, if they're familiar with that. It is a supplement that is very well researched and one that typically we see associated with metabolic inflexibility, insulin issues, insulin resistance, polycystic ovarian syndrome. There's a lot of really good research about sleep and brain health and in keeping with my theme, which is related to metabolic flexibility and brain health, that is the next supplement. I've been taking myo-inositol, it's a bit of a tongue twister to say it, so we're trying to come up with ways to make it a little more approachable inositol. It's one form of inositol. We're coming up with ways to make it easier for people to say, but I've been taking it every single night to help with sleep and I've been recommending it to most if not all of my patients and clients. There's been some pretty incredible breakthroughs not only with reduction in insulin resistance, but also sleep latency, so able to fall asleep faster. If they're waking up in the middle of the night, it's able to help with that as well. That will be the next product that's coming out. It's probably going to be another powder. I'm kind of a sleep stacker. There's usually a couple of products that I will take together and I put this in my water at the tail end of my feeding window and sip on that along with some magnesium L-threonate along with my other sleep stack. This is the first of several products. There will be another one coming out fairly soon after that's going to tie into that sleep thing that I'm really excited about.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Okay, that's really cool. I was familiar with inositol., but if you had asked me, I would not have been able to tell you the benefits at all. So, I learned a lot just now and then I wasn't familiar at all with that version of it, myo-inositol.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's interesting because most of what people think about when they consider that particular supplement is, "Oh, it's great for PCOS" And it is indeed, but it's inflammation reduction and I think for the bulk of our population, which we know only 7% to 8% of our population, and I'm so speaking way outside the context of just this podcast, is not metabolically healthy. This is one of many aspects and strategies that can be utilized and it's really well tolerated. I think that's really important because there are certainly some big gun supplements that are out there where people, they may move the needle a bit faster, but they may also have the issue related to side effects. This is gentle and to me it's cumulative use that will help with sleep. So many middle-aged women really struggle with sleep and it's not just about replacing hormones. There're other ways to kind of layer in support so I'm really excited.

For listeners, you probably don't get the opportunity to read all of the behind-the-scenes stuff that goes on with supplement creation, but Melanie has been a huge supporter and has given lots of objective, which is what real friends do. Objective input with regard to product launches and messaging. So, thank you again for convincing me this is the right direction to go in, as opposed to white labelling, which for listeners means for a long time I was white labelling supplements created by Designs for Health as my own. Which you can do legally, but this allows me to completely tailor everything to my specifications. I would imagine that your specifications and mine are superior to a lot of other products that are on the market in terms of what we want or don't want in our supplement line or powders.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no. Like 100%. It's so funny because I honestly can say the versions of the supplements that I've made, there's not anything else on the market that I would trust. I wouldn't even take like with serrapeptase in particular, I wouldn't take any of the alternatives on the market. There's some magnesiums and some berberine that I would but it's so nice just with the craziness of the supplement industry to finally be able to make exactly what we want to make, and also to educate listeners about these things. So, I'm just really, really grateful. It's amazing.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's interesting to me. I have always been a proponent of talking to patients about quality of supplements and why it's important to do your due diligence. Even if you go into Whole Foods, which is not a knock-on Whole Foods, you can find good quality things. You can also find a lot of junk. As an example, there was a product that I had sent my husband to Whole Foods to pick up and he's very diligent about checking food labels, but got home and we realized the product had soybean oil in it, back to the store it went. The point I'm making is that you have to be really diligent. What's added to the supplements? What types of oils are they using, if at all, getting really granular and clear. For me, and I know we're in alignment in this, I would rather stack one supplement at a time than have combinations of supplements. There're a lot of good products that are out there that are different types of adaptogens and different types of products, but then you don't know what actually works. Whereas if you're stacking one product at a time, you can determine how do you react to that product, how do you feel with that product before you layer in something else and I think that's very insightful.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I could not agree more. That's actually one of my main things as well. It's so cool that we're both aligned with that, the single ingredient thing. Not to say that I wouldn't make blends and like, the magnesium is a blend, for example, but it's all magnesiums. There's so many longevity blends and it's like all these different things or digestive blends and it's all different things. Like you said, "How do what's doing what? And then you can't tailor accordingly. Some of the ingredients might be working for you and some might not and yeah, I'm just like control freak.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] Well. I think it's also my clinician background because I learned that certain drugs were really efficacious and very effective. Sometimes when there're a lot of medications on the market, as an example, sometimes you can get a blood pressure medication with a cholesterol medicine at the same time, they put them together. Yes, that means someone's taking one less pill, but then if they have a side effect, we didn't always know what was driving it. We had indicators based on what the side effects were, but it sometimes got it harder to tease out. I would drive my drug reps crazy because I was the person that would use single drug agents instead of using the "newest and latest."

I would tell them, well, show me the data that this is more efficacious because this drug cost my patient $5 and what you're recommending is a drug that's going to cost them $50 out of pocket every month and they're on a fixed income. They're retired. For the same purposes, I try to be mindful and thoughtful about what the next needle mover is going to be. What are things people can use throughout the day? Like, as an example, for people that have polycystic ovarian syndrome, the indications for inositol, as an example, are twice daily dosing versus someone that is just using it for sleep properties. So, we're giving people parameters with which to move within, but also giving them, for the most part, single supplement options at a time just so that it makes it easier to add things together. That's just I think ease of use is huge for me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think that's so important. I'm glad you mentioned the threonate because that will probably be my next release, which a lot of listeners, actually, who bought Magnesium 8 when it launched. The launch special included a special code for the magnesium threonate. That's a situation where I wanted to separate it out by itself because of its specific benefits for that type of magnesium. Which is, as you're familiar with it, crosses the blood-brain barrier and can really help with sleep and relaxation. That's a situation where it's like, we really want to have that as a standalone so, yeah. For listeners to get updates for both of us, if they want updates for AvalonX supplements, which are mine. They can go to avalonx.us/emaillist or they can text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. And when you text that number AVALONX, you will get a 20% off one-time use code, which is awesome. How can people get updates for yours, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: We decided to make it easy because no one knows how to pronounce or even spell myo-inositol, we're doing www.cynthiathurlow/supplement so that people can get on those lists. We're just trying to make it as easy as possible because for this creatine launch that came out, which has been great. Well, by the time this comes out, we'll be talking about where people can buy into monthly subscriptions or every-couple-of-month subscriptions trying to keep it as simple as possible. So that no one's navigating, trying to find it on a website, which we live and learn. We are learning more with each launch. What not to do and what works and what doesn't work.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how to get free manuka honey. If you know what that means, then you know what that means. If you don't know what that means, I'm about to tell you what that means. So, back in the darkest days of my digestive issues and chronic fatigue and all the things, I was researching anything and everything to try and get my health back. That's when I first came across the concept of manuka honey. I knew honey was supposed to have health benefits, but there was something special about manuka honey in particular. It is a special type of honey only found in the remote and magical forests of New Zealand. The bees actually feed on the highly active nectar of the manuka tea tree, and they make super honey that is honestly unlike anything you have ever seen or tasted before. Manuka honey is a super honey because of its unique antioxidant and prebiotic properties.

Honey in general has those properties. Honey also has hydrogen peroxide activity which can have a beneficial effect on your gut and health, but manuka honey in particular has a different natural antibacterial compound called MGO that only comes from the nectar of this manuka tea tree. They actually measure it. I think it's really funny. They call it non-peroxide activity. The nutrients in manuka honey can help support optimal immune and digestive health. I personally found that when I was using manuka honey, it had an incredible effect on my gut. I became really obsessed with finding the best of the best because there is a lot of controversy out there about manuka honey, and it can be difficult to make sure that you're getting a certified verified source that is actually the stuff that you want.

That's why I was so, so thrilled when Manukora reached out to me. They make manuka honey and what I'm really excited about is they have all of the transparency that I'm looking for. When I did the onboarding call with the brand, I was so impressed with their story, their authenticity, their knowledge, and their mission with manuka honey. Their honey can be traced back to a single origin through a unique QR authenticity platform, I love that. The honey is free from environmental toxins, free of glyphosate residue, non-GMO, gluten free. It's raw and like I said, 100% traceable. They're also a Certified B Corp and something super important to me, they really take care of their bees. The beekeepers actually manage the hive numbers to ensure that the bees have access to diverse pollen sources and plenty of nectar to feed on to avoid any risk of overstocking the bees. They're never fed refined sugar. There's no excessive hive transportation.

The hives don't need to be shifted around for pollination practices. They also help support local communities. Like, I said, I've been a fan of manuka honey for so long, so it's really exciting to partner with this company. Plus, the honey tastes delicious. You can incorporate Manukora into your food choices, into your diet, or you can use it as a supplement taking some of it daily to help support your immunity, your GI health and so much more. Manukora's super honey is available in a range of easy-to-use formats including jars, squeeze bottles, and 100% completely compostable packets. Friends, that is so hard to find so you can eat it straight or add it to your favorite food or beverage. If you head to manukora.com/ifpodcast you'll automatically get a free pack of honey sticks with your order that is of $15 value. That's M-A-N-U-K-O-R-A dotcom slash ifpodcast to get a free pack of honey sticks with your order. Friends. It's called honey with superpowers for good reason. Get on it and try this delicious creamy caramel honey and you won't look back with Manukora. That's manukora.com/ifpodcast for free manuka honey sticks and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

Okie Dokie. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: So, for listeners we got so many amazing questions when we asked for AMA. So, we're just continuing in this vein. Probably going to do this one and maybe one more episode just for a grab bag of goodies of topics, health and personal and all the things. So, to start things off. Okay, this is from Eileen. "What would you consider your best lifehack?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay. I'm going to not say fasting [laughs] because that would be expected, "High quality sleep." It's not a sexy answer, but I fervently believe if you are getting high quality sleep, everything else falls into place. Your blood sugar, better hormonal regulation, better food choices, ability to exercise and have great mentation. I would say high quality sleep is probably the one thing that is foundational to our health and really important. I think that I didn't fully appreciate until I really got into the research, why sleep is so critically important? Actually, as a healthcare provider, it's disturbing that so many healthcare providers are expected to skimp on sleep in order to take care of patients. I say this lovingly, we do it without question when we need to, but when we're telling our patients to get high quality sleep and to go to bed earlier and not be on screens until 02:00 in the morning and we're doing exactly the opposite. We're not mimicking good behavior for our patients, but that's probably my number one foundational element to anything that I do. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: That's a really great answer and it's really interesting that I think we frame the question differently. I didn't even think about diet or fitness or physical. I was thinking more in like mental side of things, so that's really interesting. Although intermittent fasting would be a really good answer, I think. Because of just, I mean it really is the ultimate lifehack in a way, because not only does it address the dietary issues that we face today with metabolic syndrome and the obesity epidemic and all these things, but on top of that you also get back time, you lose your anxiety surrounding eating. However, that is not what I chose. [chuckles] I picked gratitude, actually, because I think we have so much fear and anxiety today and stress. I love the concept that you can't be in a state of gratitude and a state of fear at the same time. I really just think it's the ultimate hack for immediately changing your mindset. Like literally, if you're stressed, think of something you're grateful for and at that moment you will not, at least at that literal moment, be stressed and then on top of that just the benefits surrounding it health wise are incredible. Even things like loving, kindness, meditations. I was reading about that in a book that I'm reading right now about the brain actually, and studies they've done on that and its effect on health biomarkers and mental health and wellness and brain health. So, yeah, I pick gratitude as a lifehack.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's really important. Ben Azadi is a good friend and he talks about vitamin G as a way to be thinking about gratitude every day. I agree with you that it is an underappreciated lifehack. It is certainly something that has been played out in my life over the past four years. Anytime I think things are getting tough, I have to remind myself that I have so much to be grateful for and it always allows me to kind of pass-through whatever discomfort I'm experiencing emotionally or otherwise. Definitely something, if you're not practicing that regularly, definitely give that a consideration.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think also linked to it the focus on the present moment that it causes. I was reading about I might have mentioned this on the show before when I interviewed Seth Stephens-Davidowitz, who wrote the book Don't Trust Your Gut, all about data and not him, but there was a study where they had people do an app and it checked in randomly all throughout the day and asked them what were they doing and were they happy. They found that people-- this is really interesting, you're happier thinking about something neutral in the present moment. It might have even been bad. I have to double check. It was definitely neutral then you are thinking about something happy in the future. Basically, focusing on the present moment can just have an incredible effect. I like tying that in as well.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. It's all good.

Melanie Avalon: It is. Actually, since sort of related, since we're talking about hacks, Mary Jane said, "What are some of the other habits or things you do that you've maybe never talked about on the podcast? Like infrared saunas, ankle and wrist weights, etc., but new ones.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think Zone 2 training is something that I've been very focused on probably the past year in conjunction with regular strength training and then doing Pilates or Solidcore. Zone 2 training, I have to fully admit that my functional medicine doc and my trainer both are really into Zone 2 training. Keeping your heart rate, for me being 51, that means my heart rate is under 129 while I'm exercising. Enough that you can comfortably have a conversation, but you're still exercising. For me, a lot of what I do is walking. I know exactly what cadence, if the weather is bad outside or raining, I can walk on my treadmill inside, and I know exactly where my heart rate is. If I'm walking too fast, I can slow my pace down. Same thing with walking hills in my neighborhood. I'm in a very hilly part of Virginia that, for me, I think has really been very impactful. I probably haven't talked about it because it doesn't sound like a particularly sexy topic. But one that I think most people, if they've been conditioned to believe that doing a lot of HIIT, which HIIT should be brief, like 10 minutes long or if they're doing chronic cardio and they're wondering why it's not working for them physiologically or in terms of body composition whatever it is they're trying to improve. Zone 2 training for both my physician and my trainer is very important, especially for where I am life stage wise. Actually, Peter Attia talks about it quite a bit as well.

Melanie Avalon: It's funny you're talking about that. I was just getting hit with all of these things I've heard Peter Attia talk about who I'm still trying to book for the show because he has a new book coming out.

Cynthia Thurlow: I tried pitching him. They responded to me. I was really excited. I tried very hard because I was like, “I am a Hopkins alumn, I was there when he was training. Although he was in the bowels of the hospital and I was in the ER, but you know what? I just wanted to interject. If you haven't already listened to the latest podcast with him, with the neurocognitive, it's like a 2 hour and 40 minutes podcast, which is super long. I've listened to it twice. I've recommended it to nearly every person I know, non-clinician and otherwise. Really superlative podcast, it completely blew my mind about different types of proteins and how we approach neurocognitive disorders. Really smart female physician whose name evades me because I'm terrible with names.

Melanie Avalon: I did listen. I didn't realize until the very end that she's in his practice. I don't think he mentioned that in the beginning. He might have, I'm so annoyed at myself. I had pitched them early December. And so, when I'm writing an email that I want to be the perfect email, I put in my email address so that I don't accidentally send it soon to somebody else. I realized when I sent it to them, I didn't actually send it to them because I was going back to follow up. I was like, I haven't heard back. I went to follow up and I was like, "Oh, so that explains a lot." So, I just resent it. Did they book you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well. What they said was a very nice gentleman actually apologized for not answering for nine days, which I was like, that's a good sign. I explained the podcast reach and who I am and my background, and how we both shared time at Hopkins and how I was a huge proponent. I said, if there's any way I can support his book launch, that's kind of how I left it. [laughs] They said, "This all looks really good. We'll be back in touch." This is my thinking process, I would imagine when you're at that level, like Peter Attia level, I'm assuming he's not going to be doing tons and tons of press. I think he's going to be selective. Even if I don't get him as a guest, I will still be super, super supportive of the launch. I'm just kind of leaving it out there in the universe that I'm completely open to the possibility. But I will not be disappointed if I am not one of the people that interviews him. I'll just be super excited to listen to him on other people's podcasts. I know he was not wanting to do the audiobook. [laughs] He wanted to have someone else narrate it. I was cracking up listening to him explain that he actually did narrate the book. I was like, "I'm really glad that you did that." But it is, as you as a trained thespian, I'm sure you probably can't appreciate this, but I had no idea how much work goes into an audiobook in terms of just the degree of proper alliteration of words and diction. I actually said to the producer, because my producer was particularly picky, which is her job. I was like, "What do people do that don't articulate or don't have good diction?" And she just laughed. She was like, "They do a lot more recording than you will be doing." And I was like, oh my gosh. So, yeah, very humbly. I just say I'm not a thespian anyway. I'm down a rabbit hole, but I hope that you get to interview him. I will certainly be super supportive if that happens, but I'm kind of, like, cautiously optimistic.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I have no idea if this is going to manifest. It's like my dream, we shall see.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'll try not to fan geek too much if I get to talk to him.

Melanie Avalon: I'm always prepping shows all the time. I have this one evergreen document called Peter Attia, because I'm listening to him all the time. Anytime he says something where I can tell it's a subject that's really random, that he's really interested in and I'm also interested in. And he has, like, an interesting thought, I write it down. [laughs] I have, like, two years' worth of random insight from him that I can tie into the interview.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's awesome. No, I think he's intense and brilliant, and just very intense. Like, my husband now listens to Peter Attia. My husband's an engineer, it gives you an idea of how his brain works. Sometimes he walks around and he's like, "Whoa, that guy's intense." I'm like, "Yup." [laughs] That's who you want as your physician. You want someone who's intense and methodical, it's all good.

Melanie Avalon: I know. So someday, someday. So, my answer is for the hacks. It's interesting, a lot of them I have talked about in the show. I guess I shouldn't say, though, I mean, my exercise related one, or it's not hacks, it habits and things that you do. My exercise one is Emsculpt, but I've talked about that all the time, the muscle building. I can comment on it, that I have started doing different body areas with it and I've seen really incredible effects. I started doing inner and outer thigh and it's kind of profound how it-- I think it does things to you and your legs that you would have to do, I think very specific exercises for a long time to see benefits. I'm loving that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Does it hurt?

Melanie Avalon: It doesn't hurt. You pick the intensity so you can work your way up and you get used to it. It's unpleasant and depending on which area it is, some are worse than others. Like the glutes, those are the easiest. I've been doing those most recently and those are pretty easy. Inner and outer thigh actually are not that bad. The outer thigh a little bit, it's more unpleasant, but they can adjust the intensity and you work your way up.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's all very interesting. I know very little about that.

Melanie Avalon: It's incredible. [chuckles] It literally builds muscle, like literally and burns fat and I really see the difference. Actually, that reminds me of something I hadn't written down for this, but I started doing of peptides, which I had not done before, so injections of peptides. I think that's something that's pretty cool because I was having some knee pain. Okay, and then another one. This is so funny. I had this on the list and I couldn't even remember if we had booked them for this show, but I just realized they are actually sponsoring this episode. I did not plan this. I couldn't even remember if they were sponsoring this show or not in comparison to my other Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. I am obsessed with my Lomi. Do you have one, Cynthia? Did they send you one?

Cynthia Thurlow: They did not send me one.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I'll have to email them. Friends listen to the ad that we're running for them. I'm obsessed. I bought one all by myself for my parents for Christmas. That's how much I love it. It's a composter and I've been wanting to compost for a long time, but it seemed very intimidating and complicated and I didn't want to get into that. When they reached out, I was really excited. This is revolutionizing my experience of my food and of my trash waste habit because I eat so many cucumbers as listeners know. I would fill up these trash bags all the time with all these scraps and everything. Now I just put them in my Lomi every night. You run it overnight, it's dirt in the morning, it's mind blowing. You can use that dirt outside. You can grow with it. They come with these little pellet things that you can put in to make it more microbial rich. Yeah, I'm like all about the composting and it's so quiet, you don't even hear it and it's easy to clean up. You don't even have to clean it that much. I don't clean it in between cycles I clean it, like, once a week, so composting, Lomi.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well. It's interesting. So, the neighborhood we lived in in Northern Virginia, was very strict. They wouldn't allow us, my husband likes to garden, so Todd is like this renaissance man. He kind of does a lot of different things, and he really wanted a composting area in the backyard, and they wouldn't allow us to do that. Now we're in a different neighborhood. They're strict about some things and not about others. I think having a compost, he would be so happy.

Melanie Avalon: It goes inside in your kitchen, and it's like the size of maybe two Instapots together. If you could take the Instapots and make it little bigger or Crockpot and make it twice the size. It's sleek looking, so you can compost without doing everything outside.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's so cool.

Melanie Avalon: Our offer is you can go to lomi.com/ifpodcast and use the promo code IFPODCAST that will get you $50 off. Cannot recommend this thing enough. I'm obsessed. So, yes. That's something new. I think I had one that I talked about before in the show, but I just want to emphasize it because I upgraded my version of it a little bit. One last one, it's funny because you were saying that your answer, Cynthia, was not a sexy answer. I have a sexy answer for this question. I don't know if I've shared this on the show or if I should.

Cynthia Thurlow: I was going to share my V Fit, but I'm still in the beginning stages.

Melanie Avalon: Your what?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's called a V-Fit.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, what is that?

Cynthia Thurlow: It is essentially a device with red light therapy that's supposed to help build up collagen and elastin in your vagina.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.

Cynthia Thurlow: I just got it. I've used it twice, but Mindy Pelz has been suggesting I do this for a year, and I bought it, and my husband was like, "Oh, my God, you've got to be kidding me."[laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Do you stick it in like a tampon?

Cynthia Thurlow: It looks like a dildo.

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'll take a picture of it for you.

Melanie Avalon: Large.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: And it has red light.

Cynthia Thurlow: But, like it's only probably, like, four inches that's inserted inside. It's just designed to be comfortable to hold.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. [laughs] That's cool. I support that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. I was going to say, if we're going to talk about that's, probably the most interesting thing that I have recently started trying. But I haven't been using it long enough to be able to give a full report, but I have friends that swear by it.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. We should try to get them as a sponsor. [chuckles]

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. That would be nice. Right?

Melanie Avalon: I'll reach out to them. My related answer, if kids are listening, maybe pause for a second [laughs] for the moms because I know they're listening with families sometimes with their kids in the car. Mine would be ever since, I interviewed Dr. Stephanie Estima, she had her seven-day orgasm challenge that she said would have a profound effect on your health. And I started that, I mean, that was a while ago. That was probably a year ago. I just kept it up as an everyday orgasm challenge. It's literally because how much I'm a planner and a scheduler, it's literally, like, scheduled in to my life, my daily life.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's important, but nothing else. One of the things that I think we've talked about tangentially on the podcast is my PMF mat. It's like I crave it in the morning and now I crave it in the evening. My husband walks in and just laughs at me because I'm lying on this mat and I'm usually got, like, a blanket on top of me and I'm just so relaxing and he just laughs at me. I'm like, "I need 30 minutes of this in the morning." He was like, "Whatever makes you happy."[laughs] I try to do it at night because it's a time that I'm not doing anything else. I'm kind of gearing down, it's so relaxing, and good for your mitochondrial health.

Melanie Avalon: I love it, all the things. Okay, so I had another one, but I think I'll use it in part to answer this next question. This is the lifehack episode. Mary Jane said, like, "Switching to Redmond's or more natural salts or single source olive oil, what are some other relatively inexpensive and accessible changes people can make for the better"? I will say really quickly, "Thank you, Cynthia, so much." Cynthia sent me some wonderful olive oil for Christmas, so thank you. [chuckles]

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. No, I think for me, I'd like to keep it really simple. Like Melanie, mentioned, I sent her olive oil. Let me be clear, it is hard to send Melanie gifts because she has so many cool gadgets, and I couldn't send her scallops. It was literally impossible to do. That was high on the list, and that just wasn't feasible and cucumbers.

Melanie Avalon: So adorable that you were going to do-- just that you thought about that?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. So, high quality olive oil I think is really helpful. I do like Redmond's, and for full transparency that's the only salt we use in our home. I also think about using like I'm a fan of make some things from scratch and if you find a brand of product, whether it's a dressing or ketchup that you like, there's this company called Primal Keto. I have no affiliation with them. It's a women-owned business, and they have this spicy barbecue sauce that I use instead of ketchup. For me, that bottle will last months because no one in my house wants it. It's just I like it and so I use that in lieu of making my own barbecue sauce or Chosen brand avocado oil. They do have dressings, which I occasionally will use when I'm lazy. I know you don't like olives. I love really high-quality olives. I am a little bit of an olive snob. Sometimes I'll buy hearts of palm that are already done, same thing with roasted red peppers. Again, like a high-quality brand that doesn't have any chunk in it. Those are the kinds of things I'll lean into like salted macadamia nuts, just things that are easy, single ingredient or little-to-no ingredients that make my life a whole lot easier that are fairly inexpensive. Like nuts are not inexpensive, but if you portion them out and you go to Costco, they have salted macadamia nuts with no junk oils and they are amazing. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I love that. To stay in the food realm, this is a hack I've done for a while, which is especially if you can't afford or if it's hard on your budget to have higher quality meats, I like getting the leaner cuts of meats and then making the fat come from olive oil or coconut oil or MCT oil. You can kind of get the best of both worlds because at least for me, I feel like the majority of the issues with conventional agriculture for livestock, a lot of those toxins are in the fat of the animal. So, if you get just really lean meat, then you can add organic olive oil or organic coconut oil and things like that where that will last longer. I kind of like that little hack. Also, for organic produce, the Environmental Working Group and looking at their Dirty Dozen and Clean Fifteen. So, if you can only afford organic for some fruits and vegetables, then you can choose the nonorganic for the ones that are on their Clean Fifteen and then get organic for their Dirty Dozen. So, I think that's helpful. Also, food still, because she's asking what are some easy, inexpensive accessible things you can do to feel better? I don't think people realize, especially going out when they eat at restaurants, how once you learn how to order, to make it healthier, it's really not that hard. I think people think it's picky and difficult, and you're not going to be able to find something at restaurants. Once you get the system down because it's a very easy system, you can make most restaurants provide a dish for you that will be healthier for you and make you feel better the next day.

The first step is just like for all the meat dishes and entrees. If you're getting steak, salmon, fish, asking that it's not cooked either not in oil at all, or if it is that they use olive oil. Because a lot of them, a lot of the restaurants use vegetable oils and seed oils. That's like a really easy swap that you can make. I always just ask for plain and then you can add salt and pepper, but I tend to go really extreme with that. Also at restaurants, I always just ask for the vegetables that I want and they usually have it even if it's not on the menu. Like spinach, for example. I'll ask for like steamed spinach and even if it's not one of the side dishes they have, usually they can modify. Like restaurants are pretty good at that, so I think that's a hack.

Also, when you're getting wine, when you're out at restaurants, look up all of the wines. I know we're a big fan of Dry Farm Wines around here and really Dry Farm Wines I feel so different drinking it because it's low sugar, low alcohol, tested to be organic, free of pesticides, molds, toxins, all the things. It's the only thing I drink at home. If listeners want a bottle for a penny, they can go to dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and that will give them a bottle for a penny. However, when you are out at restaurants and bars, look up the wines, just type in the winery and then type in organic and Google and you'll find immediately which ones are organic or not. And you'd be surprised, there're a lot of wineries that are practicing organic practices. They just don't have organic certification because of all the hassles and everything with that. That would be like USDA Organic, so backtracking with the wines. If you want to get as close to Dry Farm Wines as possible when you're ordering out, pick European. I usually favor like French and Italian and then look up the winery, type in organic, see if it says that they're practicing organic. If you want to go one step further beyond that to really try to mimic Dry Farm Wines, look up a picture of the label. We'll type in the actual wine and type in ABV, and it might come up with the alcohol by volume.

Dry Farm Wines are all 12.5% or less, so look for ones that are 12.5% or 13% wine. If you can't find it that way, look up the label, you can usually see the alcohol on the label. If you want to go the final step, you can get the Vivino App and look up the wine and see if people are ranking it as dry or not, just taste wise, the you can find ones with low sugar. I've been so impressed with myself. I've gone on quite a few dinners recently where we bought a really nice bottle of wine. It was really up to me to just research and try to figure out which one I thought would be very Dry Farm Wines-esque. Every time it tasted like Dry Farm Wines and I felt good the next day. So, that was a long education about how to order wine at restaurants.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, that's so helpful. The one thing that I would encourage everyone to not feel any sense of guilt. I think we as women more often than not feel guilty when we're advocating for ourselves in restaurants. I actually tell people, I have a seed oil allergy, so they take it really seriously. And it's surprising like you can get your steak or your chicken, or your fish or whatever you're having. I have colleagues in the health and wellness space that do the same. Generally, if I tell people that, they take it pretty seriously. I think seed oils are one of the easiest things to try to avoid or just ask like what is the dressing made with, what are they cooking your meat in or your fish in? It's not surprising that more often than not, they're happy to cook it in butter or they're happy to find an alternative and as Melanie suggested, more often than not they have more vegetables than what's on the menu. So those are great suggestions.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you for saying that. About the-- not that it's like standing up for yourself, but it can be intimidating. The main pushback I usually get from servers is they just don't believe me that I'm going to like the way it tastes if I order it that way. I'm like, "Listen, this is what I like. Trust me, I will love it." Oh, here's a hack you can do if you are low carb. We talked about this on the show already. I think you can order an appetizer as a savory dessert. Get like another round of salmon or something. Just let the kitchen know early on. and then just two more quick things

One, Castile Soap. I use Cove Unscented Castile Soap from Amazon. You can use it for so many things. I use it to clean my face, for the dishes. You can make laundry detergent out of it. You can make washing machine stuff with it. But yeah, Castile Soap is incredible. And then very last thing. I've talked about this on the show as well, but I am doing it more and making more and more adjustments. If you replace all of your plates and bowls and stuff with very heavy alternatives, you get a nice little workout every night when you are moving your stuff around. So, I use like, cast iron bowls. I got this cast iron Le Creuset, Harry Potter Casserole dish that I keep my cilantro in because I eat a lot of cilantro. It is the heaviest thing. It is so heavy. It is overwhelmingly heavy. I get cilantro out back and forth multiple times throughout the evening. It integrates some physical movement into your daily life. So, I'm all about the heavy things.

Cynthia Thurlow: I take AG1 several times a week after working out and when I'm ready to break my fast and it really makes me feel unstoppable. I love to add it to a protein smoothie, or actually we'll drink it with filtered water and I love both variations. My 17-year-old also enjoys AG1 after a workout to ensure he stays really well hydrated. A great deal of what I focus on in my personal life is ongoing gut health improvement. I do feel fundamentally that AG1 has contributed significantly to improvements in my gut health over the last three years. I feel as if the key health benefits from multivitamins, minerals, pre and postbiotics all work together synergistically to improve my gut microbiome. AG1 is way more than just greens. It's important to note that it's made with 75 super high-quality vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients that deliver incredible benefits to the gut microbiome as well as sleep support, assistance with energy, and so much more.

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Melanie Avalon: Now we have a question from Laura. This is of a different topic and she says, "What is your favorite vacation and/or what's your bucket list trip?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, this is probably one of my favorite questions and anyone that knows me knows that I live to travel. It is one of my favorite, favorite things to do in the world, and I hope my children develop a love and appreciation for travel. I've been fortunate to have been a lot of places. I would say my favorite vacation I've taken with my husband was Rwanda. We've been to Africa several times and I was surprised at how much, I mean, I knew I was going to love it, but Rwanda was so clean, the people were so gracious. Seeing the apes up close was life changing. It was just like one of my favorite vacations.

And then I would say with my kids and my husband, Eastern Europe this past summer. I know Melanie and I have talked a lot about this. Vanessa lives in Prague. I was humbly stunned at how much we loved Prague. We loved Eastern Europe. We were just awed by how wonderful the people were. It was beautiful. The food was great. In terms of what's on my bucket list, I've got a lot of things, and there are going to be trips that we're going to take, my husband and I will take when the kids are in college. We've just decided that some of these trips are just too far and I need to know my kids are in a safe place before I leave. Because it would be too much to ask a family member to be at our home for a couple of weeks. I would say probably top of the list is New Zealand and Australia. My husband did a lot of Asia travel when we were first married, and I wasn't able to go because I was working as an NP back then. We started having a family very soon into our marriage.

I would say, for me, really seeing the highlights of Asia, I'd like to go to Southeast Asia. I'd love to see Singapore and Hong Kong and then go to Cambodia and Vietnam. Those are probably towards the very top of the list. Beyond that, like, Argentina and Chile are definitely up there as well. Those are the ones that the Asia, New Zealand, Australia trips are going to be longer trips so they're also in there. As well as Botswana and Namibia, which are parts of Africa that I've not yet seen but we really want to go to. How about you? I know you're not as much of an avid traveler [chuckles] as I am, but that was one of my favorite questions.

Melanie Avalon: Well, it's funny. Growing up I travelled a ton and my family still travels because we have family in Germany, and so we would go to Germany and then we would go to another country. Yeah, now I get it's like my Achilles heel, honestly, I get anxiety surrounding travel, and I'm a lot better now. I'm making baby steps, but it's not my favorite thing. If I could just pop up somewhere and then pop up back in my apartment and go to sleep at night, of course I would. It's the whole everything. Like how it affects your sleep and your digestion and all of that. It's something I'm working on all the time, especially with my therapist. My favorite place, this is even with all of the places we've been internationally, I am obsessed with EPCOT and Disney World. I'm really, really obsessed.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's a happy place.

Melanie Avalon: It's so happy. Disney World in general, I'm just obsessed. I would actually just love to go back there. Interestingly, New Zealand actually would be that's the first thing I thought of. I would love to go back to Paris. This is such a weird reason. Well, A, I loved it when went, and I loved seeing the Catacombs, and I loved just St. Paris. I want to go back now when I'm not as intimidated by the world. When I went, I was in high school and I was very much intimidated by like social clicks and things like that. Paris is just the cool place. I would like to go now where like that stuff doesn't matter to me. I just feel that would not be a thing in my head, if that makes sense, I felt intimidated by the city.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's funny how for me, I didn't grow up with parents that were able to take us on big vacations outside the United States. The first time I left the United States was when I was 25, so certainly old enough to be able to do that. I feel like every decade of my life, I get different things out of travel, whether it's in the United States or outside the United States. Now, I'm at a point in my life where I just notice a lot more things. I'm much more sensitive and attuned to what's going on than I probably was when I was younger, when it was just like, "Oh, I want to go here, and I want to go there, and I want to do this." I definitely savor more when I travel irrespective of where I'm going. I may really sit and pay attention to the flowers and the trees and be less focused on the big things. It's like, suddenly the little things have become the big things.

I hope that you go back to Paris. It's such an amazing city. I always say, I'm such a Francophile. I love the architecture, and I've never experienced Parisians being rude to me, but there's just something very cool about the culture. And to me, I just kind of savor how differently different cultures or different countries live their lives. The Parisians are just much like New Yorkers. There's just a certain je ne sais quoi. There's just such a unique way that they appreciate the way that they live their lives, and the way that they focus in on certain metrics over other things. The other thing that I think I really appreciate when I travel is a lot of the way Americans live is a byproduct of, they have to live in a big house, they have to have a big yard, they have to have a big car. When I travel internationally, I'm like, "I could be happy with a lot less and just do more with my life." So, obviously, that's a very personal decision, and there's no judgment on what I'm saying. When I travel to other countries, I realize most people don't live amongst a lot of stuff. They're just very grateful for the things that they have and that can be very transformative.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I love that. You would love my sister. She's a minimalist and she goes everywhere, like everywhere. She's always traveling. She travels everywhere with a tiny suitcase for weeks. How do you do that?

Cynthia Thurlow: You do laundry in your hotel room. We've started doing that, actually. I'm going to London with my cousin, who's one of my favorite people in the world in early February. She's a big fashionista and I told her I was like, "I'm bringing a carry on." That's all I'm bringing. I'm like, whatever I wear, I'm wearing. I'm not stressing about it because checking bags when you travel can be a little dicey. And sometimes it's easier to travel with less and just get your laundry done at the hotel, or wash it in your hotel room so you don't have to worry about bringing too much stuff. That's why I always believe, like, the capsule wardrobe is a thing when you travel. So super helpful. So, yeah, your sister is definitely ahead of the game.

Melanie Avalon: I literally will. If I have to go stay at a hotel downtown overnight, I bring a massive suitcase, so I have work to do there. Actually, speaking of my sister, this is not my sister, but it's the same name. Danielle said, "Given the opportunity to go to space, would you go? What would you want to study there?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, God. I would not want to go to space. I'm admittedly one of those people, I grew up in New Jersey and Great Adventure was very close to where I grew up. If anyone's familiar with Central New Jersey, I grew up at the shore. I did the rollercoasters. I did every probably unsafe, so imagine in the 1980s and 90s, probably not the safest amusement park to go to. I've done it all, but I've learned I actually don't like being that out of control. For me, I would not enjoy not being in control of what was going on. I will leave that to the astronauts and the people that are interested in space travel. I am terribly claustrophobic, although I deal with it. I would not want to study anything. I don't mind studying things here on Earth, but I would not want to go study other people, or planets or things. Because the claustrophobia would be a big issue for me, which probably I haven't talked about on this. I get into elevators and I have to really do a lot of mindset work to not get uncomfortable and sweat because I just don't like having a lot of people in my space. Have I ever talked about that before.

Melanie Avalon: About the claustrophobia.

Cynthia Thurlow: My weird quirkiness about, yeah claustrophobia.

Melanie Avalon: I'm claustrophobic. I don't think we've talked about it.

Cynthia Thurlow: I would not be a good space person. I will leave that to the experts.

Melanie Avalon: Have you taken the test? It's like the phobia test. There're two types of claustrophobia. Did you know that? It'll tell you which one you have.

Cynthia Thurlow: I did not.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. So, would you like to know the two types? Because okay, this made me so excited because I was taking the test, and there were these things that would list that freak me out, and I was so happy because I was like, oh, my goodness, this is like a thing. It's not just me panicking about this. In the claustrophobia one, it's things like in an elevator, which actually doesn't bother me. Are you bothered by an elevator.

Cynthia Thurlow: If there're too many people in the elevator? Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, see, so that actually doesn't bother me. We probably have the two different types. Then there're things like in a straitjacket, would that bother you?

Cynthia Thurlow: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. Okay, so we have the two different types. This one that was on there was made me so happy. Something that will make me panic, like panic is if I am trying on clothes in the dressing room and I can't get the shirt off. Do you have that experience?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I don't think that would bother me. It's definitely, I think to me it's a personal space thing too. I'm definitely very cognizant of personal space again, because I was in patients spaces all the time. So, I was always very cognizant of being in people's spaces. Yeah, when people are too close to me, I'm like strangers. I should specify friends and family different, but strangers in my personal space on an elevator, I don't love that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you probably have the conventional form of claustrophobia. What people think of with claustrophobia, which is being in small spaces. Mine, which I thought was claustrophobia, they still said it is, but then they have like a subtype. It's actually fear of suffocation.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh. I don't have that problem, thankfully.

Melanie Avalon: So, all the things that I thought were claustrophobia, like getting stuck in an outfit or being in a straitjacket, things like that or actually it goes back to the suffocation fear. Isn't that so interesting?

Cynthia Thurlow: That is very interesting. I did not know there was a distinction.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, me neither. So, to answer the space question for me. In theory, I would love to go getting there that moment going up, I feel like I don't think I'd be down for that so much. I'm really stressed out by two things. One, the bathroom situation. I just don't think I can do it. I realized I'd have to be carnivore. I'd have to just get rid of bowel movements mostly, and I would not want the effects on my muscles, the lack of weight bearing exercise. I got to wait until we got like a gravity thing going on up there. I would want to study the aliens for sure.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] Of course, you would.

Melanie Avalon: One last thing. This is actually very interesting health fact that I just learnt. Did you know when astronauts go to space, they often get sick? Like viruses and things like that, which doesn't make sense because they're not exposed to other people and viruses. They think it's probably because when people go to space, their immune system goes down for a lot of reasons. Likely a major part of it might be the social isolation and that makes these dormant viruses that we all naturally have in us that our immune system normally suppresses, flare up. Astronauts often get sick from viruses already inside of them when they go to space. Isn't that interesting?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, they get a reactivation of the virus. Interesting.

Melanie Avalon: So, yeah, fun times. I guess neither of us will be going to space then.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, never.

Melanie Avalon: Here's one last fun one to end on. Do you listen to any nonhealth-related podcasts?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. Although, admittedly not a lot. Actually, when I saw this question, I immediately went to my library to see what are the nonhealth-related podcasts I listen to and so I listen to-- so I guess it depends. Like, there's a continuum. Jenna Kutcher's Podcast, which is The Gold Digger and then Amy Porterfield's Podcast, the name of which evades me, and Mel Robbins, which is more mindset, but I just find for me at the stage of life I'm in, I want to learn so much that I would be lying if I said I listen to those podcasts on the regular.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's kind of where I am. I have four or five that I never miss. There are others that I'll kind of bounce around, like, listening to them. I would be lying if I were to say and it's not that I don't work on mindset. I do, but I'm usually listening to a book, like the mindset books I listen to, and I lean more into those than listening to a podcast around, like, mindset or nonhealthcare-related stuff. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, most of mine are health and wellness. Although, interestingly, I've been listening to podcasts since middle school, and I got hooked on podcasts when I started listening. I don't listen to it anymore, but it was called WDW Today. It was all about Walt Disney World. I lived for that podcast. I would listen to it every single day. I was obsessed with Disney World like obsessed. Now, really the only one is I listen to Joe Rogan and half the time I listen to guests, where it is health and wellness, but sometimes it's not. Like, I listened to one the other night with the beekeeper woman, Erika Thompson. I think it was 3 hours about bees. It was so fascinating. I learned so much.

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, I think for both of us, we're very cerebral and we love to learn. I always jokingly tell my husband that if I took out the household responsibilities, the kids, the dogs, and I could just learn, I would just nerd out all day long. He sometimes will say to me, "Can't you just unplug your brain?" [laughs] Just read for pleasure and I'm like, I have one book I've read in the last year for pleasure, really just like a nonfiction book, but I really enjoy learning that actually brings me joy.

Melanie Avalon: I do, too, and that's why I love podcasts. I love learning just random stuff. Did you know, you've probably never seen a male bee?

Cynthia Thurlow: I did not know that. Aren't they the workers.

Melanie Avalon: The workers are females.

Cynthia Thurlow: Really? Where are the male bees? See, I don't know anything about this obviously.

Melanie Avalon: They're just there for basically reproduction and when they're doing their thing they have this reproduction swarm hub thing and it's way up in the sky [laughs] and the queen goes up there, it's crazy. I learned so much about bees. Yeah, so all the worker bees and the ones out with the flowers and doing their stuff, those are females.

Cynthia Thurlow: Wow.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The book I'm reading right now is so interesting. It's called The Status Games. I just thought about it because it's about how we really judge wanting to have status or wanting to be in a social hierarchy, and we think it's bad. But basically, she makes the case that it's all evolutionary and the reason we have serotonin has to do with hierarchies and social dominance. Oh, that's why I thought about it because she talks about the hierarchies of different species and matriarchies versus patriarchies and it is fascinating.

Cynthia Thurlow: It is. Melanie and I are well suited for one another. We're at different life stages, but I jokingly told my husband the other day, to his horror, I was like, maybe when the kids are done with college, I'll just go back and when I'm retired and get a PhD and he was like, why? I was like, because I would just love to continue to learn. Now I'm saying that and I may decide I don't want to do that, but just like, from the perspective of continuing to learn. I always love learning, but now people have so many options. They don't necessarily have to go back to school. You could just do continuing education. Like, I thought a bunch of classes. There's a yearlong class with [unintelligible [01:09:27] that I signed up for because they were having a big sale. This is one of the big functional medicine schools and I signed up for it and I was like, okay, this is going to make sure I'm getting my continuing medical education. It means I'm learning new things. I'll be able to share with our listeners, all the extraneous things that are floating around.

Melanie Avalon: No. I love it. I love that we have that in common. Well, so much for getting through half of what we had left.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] Just know there are so many good questions. I have to tell you that there is one person in particular, is it Danielle.

Melanie Avalon: Who asked like a million questions?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, but they're good questions. I was like, wow.

Melanie Avalon: We had a lot of really good questions. I posted again because I wanted to get a few more and I was like and were getting a lot of fasting-specific questions, which I actually kept and saved for another episode. Maybe next week we'll do those and then we'll come back to this. In any case, so I asked for some more nonfasting-related questions and this girl Danielle and the group shoutout, she gave us 20. They were amazing.

Cynthia Thurlow: Really good questions. I think she said she was a teacher, so bravo. They were some obviously all great questions. When I read through these, I was like, oh, I've never talked about this on the podcast or a podcast. This is a fun question to be asked.

Melanie Avalon: It's funny because I'm looking at our line-up and most of them are not Danielle, but the last two we did were Danielle. Okie Dokie. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Oh, I should mention this was not on purpose. I was talking about the bees. I just realized that another sponsor on today's show besides Lomi, the composter, is Manukora honey, which makes manuka honey. So, listen to that ad as well. So, manuka honey, I first found it when I was having a lot of digestive issues. Honey by itself has a lot of health benefits, has good effects on the gut due to its hydrogen peroxide potential, which is very cool. Manuka honey actually has other compounds that are different from normal honey. Actually, when they measure it, they call it non-hydrogen peroxide activity or something like that. It can have profound effects on GI health, on the immune system.

I've been researching manuka honey for a long time. A company, Manukora, reached out to us about partnering, and I was really excited because I love manuka honey. I had a call with them last week. It was interesting because there's a lot of controversy surrounding manuka honey because people think that some of its fake and there's all these different rating systems, and how do you're getting what you're getting? So, when we met the brand, I was just thinking, please let them be legit and real. I met the founder and talked with their company, and they're so amazing. They're doing incredible things. They're sustainable. They're really passionate about the bees and the honey, and the health benefits. They're just now expanding to the US market. They actually got an Erewhon, which is cool. So, if you live in LA, you can check them out there. Definitely, listen to our ad for them because you can get free honey sticks. You just go to manukora.com/ifpodcast. That's M-A-N-U-K-O-R-A dotcom slash ifpodcast, definitely don't eat the conventional honey. There are some good honeys in the grocery store, but like, the cheap stuff, just don't eat that. I learned a lot in the episode with Joe Rogan about how adulterated conventional honey can be in the grocery store and how it's basically just like sugar, water, and additives and not what you want. So manuka honey, Manukora [unintelligible [01:12:58].

Cynthia Thurlow: As soon as it arrived, my 15-year-old took it out and tried it immediately and gave it a thumbs up.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. It's like a honey that you've never experienced. It's so good. Okay, well, this was absolutely wonderful.

If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, just directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode302. They'll have a full transcript so definitely check that out and also links to everything we talked about. Because I know we talked about a lot of products and things like that, so that will be helpful. And then You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I'm @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. I think that is all the things.

Cynthia Thurlow: I love this format. I look forward to doing this a couple of times a year.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Super fun. Yeah. we'll have to decide if we're going to try to speed through the rest of them next time or alternate or we'll decide. This has been great and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 301 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Get $30 Off A CGM Program At Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

MANUKORA: Support Optimal Immune And Digestive Health With Manukora. Delicious, Raw, Sustainable, Traceable Manuka Honey From New Zealand. Manukora Superpower Honey Is High In Antioxidants, Prebiotics, And The Natural Antibacterial MGO Compound. Go To Manukora.Com/ifpodcast For A FREE Pack Of Honey Sticks With Your Order!

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program At Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST

4:15 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

12:25 - Listener Q&A: Theresa - Celebrity crush and your go-to movie?

16:45 - Listener Q&A: Danielle - If they were to make a movie about you, who would you want to play you or if you were to star in a movie who would you want to act with?

19:00 - Listener Q&A: Nicole - Name one celebrity or person of notoriety, living or dead, with whom you’d like to share a meal & conversation.

19:45 - MANUKORA: Go To manukora.com/ifpodcast For A FREE Pack Of Honey Sticks With Your Order!

23:30 - Listener Q&A: Brittany - Calcium. I would love to hear how you both feel about supplementing vs not.

27:10 - Listener Q&A: Elaine - Do you ever totally disagree with your interview guest? Are any disagreeable with you?

30:35 - Listener Q&A: Theresa - Most embarrassing or awkward moment during an interview

33:15 - Listener Q&A: Danielle - How many of the 50 states have you been to?

34:45 - Listener Q&A: Hollie - How do you cook your scallops and how many cucumbers and blueberries do you really eat in a day. Do you eat anything else other than the previous three mentioned?

35:00 - Listener Q&A: Mariah - Curious how you consume your ginger and turmeric

37:45 - Listener Q&A: Melissa - Hello! I want to know what Cynthia Henry Thurlow eats (I know that Melanie Avalon eats scallops & cucumbers  ). I’m a 51 years old female with 50lbs to loose. My window is 3pm to 9pm. How does a picky eater get in enough protein? My main source of protein is chicken & eggs. 

42:20 - Listener Q&A: Theresa - Your “toxic trait” as my students would say (area you need to grow in or some bad habit you need to work on)

44:05 - Listener Q&A: Laura - What is something that we would be surprised to learn about you?

54:40 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

57:40 - Listener Q&A: Eileen - Thoughts on the information going around (originating from TikTok possibly) that alcohol stops fat burning for 36 hours?

1:01:10 - Listener Q&A: Becky - I heard you mention on one of your older podcasts, that you don’t produce enough acetylaldehyde dehydrogenase. I have the same issue, as do some of my kids. I was wondering if you also get a red face ( ie “Asian flush” ) when you drink? And have you found anything that helps, other than not drinking at all?

Remedies for a hangover-free 2018

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #171 - Dr. Nayan Patel

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

1:04:20 - Listener Q&A: Theresa - most recent text: who is it to and what does it say 

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 301 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends, we talk all the time on this show about the beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and especially how it can affect your blood sugar levels. How much do we talk about this? How diet affects them? How exercise affects them? How fasting affects them? How do you actually know what your blood sugar levels are? Besides when you go to the doctor and get a snapshot of that one moment in time, or give yourself a finger prick, which, again, is a snapshot of that one moment in time. What if you could know what your blood sugar was all the time? That would be revolutionary insight that could really help you meet your health and wellness goals. Guess what? You can do that now. I'm going to tell you how to save $30 off while doing it. We are obsessed with a company called NutriSense. They provide access to and interpretations of the data from the biosensors known as Continuous Glucose Monitors aka CGMs. Your blood sugar level can significantly impact how your body feels and functions. NutriSense lets you analyze in real time how your glucose levels respond to food, exercise, sleep, and stress. How does that work? Well, a CGM is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time. The application is easy and painless. I promise, promise, promise. Check out my Instagram. I have so many videos of putting them on so you can see what that process is like. It's actually really fun.

You can use the NutriSense app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log your meals, run experiments, and so much more. And you get expert dietitian guidance. Each subscription plan includes one-month free of dietitian support. One of my friends recently got a CGM and she was going on and on about how cool it was to talk one on one with a dietitian who could help her interpret her results. Your dietitian will help you interpret the data and provide suggestions based on your goals. Of course, if you're already super knowledgeable in this space, they will still be able to provide you more advanced tips and recommendations. Friends, seeing this data in real time is what makes it easy to identify what you're doing well and where there's room for improvement. Some benefits and outcomes that you can experience, weight loss, stable energy throughout the day, better sleep, understanding which foods are good for you, controlling your cravings, seeing how you're responding to fasting and so much more.

Each device lasts for 14 days and of course, lasting sustainable change takes time and that can be achieved with a longer-term subscription. We definitely encourage you to choose a six or twelve-month subscription which are cheaper per month and allows you to not only achieve your goals but also ensure that you stick to your healthy lifestyle for the long term. You can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the coupon code, IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That's nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code, IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. Friends, you want to be in the world of CGMs? It is such a cool experience and you will learn so much. Definitely check it out and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare, and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. 

And lastly, if you're thinking of making clean beauty and safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally completely worth it. So, again to shop with us go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 301 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm doing well. Still starving, off a little bit jet lag, but doing good. I'm just excited to decompress over the next two weeks. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm doing well. We're recording this a little bit in advance, but when this comes out, it will be near the end of January, but I'm really excited about the New Year, 2023. I feel like there's a lot of exciting things and potential. This is an interesting random question before we jump in. I was talking with a friend, actually, with Jon Levy the other day, and I don't remember what brought this up, but we were talking about the concept of when you have projects that you're doing and how do you feel after completion. When you accomplish a goal or a project or something you've been doing, do you have a feeling of sadness or a feeling of, like, now what? Or a feeling of what next? Or what is that experience like for you? I don't really get that experience. When I complete something, I'm just really excited and ready for the next thing. I don't ever really feel like, "Oh, that's sad or what do I do now?" I'm always just excited to do the next thing. How about you? If you have a project or something?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I mean, I think about a lot of business travel I've had purposefully for different events. I'm always so grateful for the opportunities that for me, I'm always like, yeah, that was awesome. What's next? I'm happy and grateful, but I'm always looking forward and not looking behind, so I don't get disappointed even when things like, as an example, I did a business trip up to Chicago in November for an event with a colleague of mine, and the event wasn't at all what we expected it to be. I just said listen this just validates what we want. This just further provides clarity about what direction to take our businesses in. From my perspective, I'm always looking forward. I'm always viewing things from a very positive lens and being very grateful because I acknowledge that we have opportunities that not everyone else has. I would say that the glass is always half full.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, same. I also feel like I'm the same like I'm looking forward, not backward, but also things really last with me. I still feel really grateful for so many things that happened so long ago. I don't think they lose their allure. I was also reading a book last night because I'm just thinking about, like, a positive mindset and all of that. It's like Catch-22, but apparently, if you don't naturally have a positive mindset, you can rewire your brain to become more positive. The catch is that you have to want to do that. It's like if you're stuck in a negative mindset, I think it would be hard to-- if you're like a pessimist, that's what it was about. It was about optimists and pessimists, and could pessimists become an optimists? They can, but they have to want to. I don't know what that experience is like in their head. If they're naturally a pessimist, they might not want to become an optimist. I don't know.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I mean, I've got a couple entrepreneur friends or just people in my life that are like, the sky is always falling, they always view things from a pessimistic lens. It's hard for me to understand coming from a place of negativity when something really good has happened. I agree with you that it's very likely that they can go from being pessimist to being optimists, but it requires a lot of inner work. I think for many people, they're just not in a position where they can per se do that. It's something that they could certainly invest in over time to transition to a more heartfelt, grateful perspective as opposed to one that's always looking at the negatives. It's not to suggest all of us don't have a bad day or a bad mood or you're just having a crummy moment, but the optimist is always going to figure a way out. They're not going to stay in that kind of fixed mindset.

Melanie Avalon: So true, sort of relates. We are continuing our Ask Me Anything episode from episode 300, our celebratory episode because we got so many incredible, amazing questions and they're just fun, but they also relate to health and wellness. We're just going to keep on answering these until we get through all of the ones that we got. I'll start with one by popular request from Cynthia because she wanted to answer this and I do too. Actually, there's three and they're all related to a similar topic, so we can do all of them. First one, Theresa wants to know what is your celebrity crush and your go-to movie.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] I have a thing for Charlie Hunnam. Do you know him?

Melanie Avalon: Who is that?

Cynthia Thurlow: Claim to fame as Sons of Anarchy? He's not even necessarily in that show like the greatest actor, but there's just something about him physically that I find so attractive. He was in the most recent rendition of King Arthur. He's British, he's blonde and he's hot, so I'll just leave that there. He's my get-out-of-jail card. Not that I'll ever meet him, but he's just a very attractive human being. I don't think I have a favorite movie. I think I have groups of movies that I've enjoyed throughout my lifetime. This probably makes me sound like-- I think I've always been more of a book person than a movie person. I have a cousin who went to film school at USC where Melanie went for undergrad. He'd be so disappointed to hear me say that.

I think I'm old school in terms of like 80s, a lot of the Steven Spielberg movies and George Lucas movies. I love retrospectively thinking about Indiana Jones movies. I mean things that my kids can watch. I don't have to worry about something obscure popping up that I then have to explain to them. I would say trilogies, things like Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter. I love, like, the Harry Potter series we've watched multiple times. We've read all the books, but things that I can really lean into and just enjoy and savor well-written characters. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Celebrity crush is Johnny Depp.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, how funny. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I love Johnny Depp. I was very much invested in the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard Trial. It was like the most intense real-life TV show. Like, I was literally just watching the court cases, like day after day the court trial. Go-to movie, it's one that you mentioned, Lord of the Rings is my favorite. Do you have a go-to Christmas movie?

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, I love, "Why am I forgetting the name of it?" The one that has Hugh-- Love Actually. Love Actually is a favorite. What's the movie where I'm terrible with names Melanie, this is like a pathologic problem. I'm thinking of the couples that kind of switch places.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes, The Holiday.

Cynthia Thurlow: Thank you. I would say those are like, happy kind of holiday movies that we watch every year. I love Home Alone because my youngest is kind of exactly like Macaulay Culkin was at that age, and he would be that child. I would say those are probably, like, the Heat Miser, Cold Miser. So, like the old animated.

Melanie Avalon: That's my favorite out of all the animated ones. I love that one.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. My husband was watching it the other night with our kids and texted me, and I was like, here I am in LA in my hotel room eating, like, room service, and my kids and my husband are home doing something that's holiday related. So, those are probably my favorites. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I love the Heat Miser, Cold Miser ones. I think I've mentioned it on the show before, but Borrowed Hearts, it's like my favorite made-for-TV Christmas movie ever. I'm obsessed with it. It is the best. It has the main guy from, I think, Grey's Anatomy. It's like 1997, and I've been watching it for a long time. And then one other. Oh, I love The Holiday as well. I actually watched this past Christmas for the first time. I think I probably had seen parts of it when I was little, but they made the sequel to A Christmas Story, so I wanted to watch the original. It's kind of dark. I'm glad I didn't watch that growing up. I don't think that would have made me feel very good.

Cynthia Thurlow: There's an amazing rendition done in Ford's Theater every year. Last year we saw it was 2018 because then, of course, it was like 2019 and then the pandemic. But it's so well done. But I agree with you. It can be dark depending on the director and the way that it's written. I think the older I get, the less I like dark movies. I used to love being creeped out when I was little, I loved scary movies, and now I'm "Yeah, I don't really like that."

Melanie Avalon: It feels very adulty if that makes sense. Like, I was watching it and I was like, this doesn't make me feel happy and Christmasy. I'm glad I wasn't watching this growing up. So, the other quick celebrity-related ones, Danielle wants to know, if they were to make a movie about you, who would you want to play you? Or if you were to star in a movie, who would you want to act with?

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, so, obviously, I would be the person advocating for someone to play me because I'm not a thespian. I would not be in a position to be acting as someone else. It's funny over the years, I've had different people tell me I look like different people. I've heard Jennifer Aniston. I've heard Scarlett Johansson, which I didn't really see, most recently, do you know Vera Farmiga?

Melanie Avalon: I don't think so.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, she's got a very unique look. But I was told at this dinner that I went to at John's house, this one was like, "Hey, you look like an older version of her." I was like, you realize she's in her 40s, right? She was like, oh, she is just an FYI. Don't tell women that are older that they look like an older version of someone. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Just don't, women and age just don't.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, just don't even go there. I'm a very confident, secure woman, but I was just like, "That's not a compliment, lady." Those would probably be the people I've heard I resemble, but I see aspects of each one of them. Like, I love Jennifer Aniston's hair. I have lips like Scarlett. Vera, I probably look more like than the other two. How about you? I know you would want to just play someone because you are a thespian.

Melanie Avalon: Well, yeah, so I would want to play myself for sure. That is not even a question. If I were to star in a movie with somebody, I'm obsessed with Blake Lively and Keira Knightley.

Cynthia Thurlow: She's so cute.

Melanie Avalon: Blake Lively is besties with Taylor Swift, so then maybe I could become friends with Taylor, too. It would just be great. It would be amazing. Those are the two actresses I will watch any movie they're in. I think I have girl crushes on them. I just like looking at them. I just think they're so beautiful.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Blake, to me, just seems like a nice down-to-earth human being. Ryan Reynolds, who she's married to, he's so cute when he talks about her.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know. They seem very, like, in love. They seem very-- and they've been together for a long time now.

Cynthia Thurlow: Long time. This is her fourth pregnancy, so yeah, definitely a long time.

Melanie Avalon: There's usually Easter eggs in Taylor Swift's songs about the names of Blake's children, which is lovely. Which brings us to our next question. Easy answer for me, but Nicole wants to know, name one celebrity or person of notoriety, living or dead, with whom you'd like to share a meal and conversation. Taylor Swift. How about you?

Cynthia Thurlow: I thought about this. I gave this some thought, Nelson Mandela, because I don't know if I've ever told you this, but when I went to South Africa for the first time, he was still alive. We were supposed to go to Robben Island, which is where he was imprisoned. The weather was bad, so we couldn't actually go. It didn't look bad on our end while we were in Cape Town but were informed that it was not good weather. I felt such a connection to South Africa when I was there. Subsequent to that, I read his autobiography, and I thought, wow, I mean, this is someone that I'd love to meet. Of course, now he's deceased. That would not even be possible. That's who kind of popped up for me.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends, I'm about to tell you how to get free Manuka Honey. If you know what that means, then you know what that means. If you don't know what that means, I'm about to tell you what that means. Back in the darkest days of my digestive issues and chronic fatigue and all the things, I was researching anything and everything to try and get my health back. That's when I first came across the concept of Manuka Honey. I knew honey was supposed to have health benefits, but there was something special about Manuka Honey in particular. It is a special type of honey only found in the remote and magical forests of New Zealand. The bees actually feed on the highly active nectar of the Manuka tea tree, and they make super honey that is honestly unlike anything you have ever seen or tasted before. Manuka Honey is a super honey because of its unique antioxidant and prebiotic properties.

So, honey in general has those properties. Honey also has hydrogen peroxide activity, which can have a beneficial effect on your gut and health. But, Manuka Honey in particular has a different natural antibacterial compound called MGO that only comes from the nectar of this Manuka tea tree. They actually measure it. I think it's really funny. They call it nonperoxide activity. The nutrients in Manuka Honey can help support optimal immune and digestive health. I personally found that when I was using Manuka Honey, it had an incredible effect on my gut. I became really obsessed with finding the best of the best, because there is a lot of controversy out there about Manuka Honey, and it can be difficult to make sure that you're getting a certified, verified source that is actually the stuff that you want. That's why I was so, so thrilled when Manukora reached out to me.

They make a Manuka Honey and what I'm really excited about is they have all of the transparency that I'm looking for. When I did the onboarding call with the brand, I was so impressed with their story, their authenticity, their knowledge, and their mission with Manuka Honey. Their honey can be traced back to a single origin through a unique QR authenticity platform, I love that. The honey is free from environmental toxins, free of glyphosate residue, non-GMO, gluten-free. It's raw, and like I said, 100% traceable. They're also a certified B Corp and something super important to me. They really take care of their bees. The beekeepers actually manage the hive numbers to ensure that the bees have access to diverse pollen sources and plenty of nectar to feed on. To avoid any risk of overstocking the bees, they're never fed refined sugar. There's no excessive hive transportation. 

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We'll do something health-related. Now, Brittany wants to know, calcium. "I would love to hear how you both feel about supplementing versus not."

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm not a fan of supplementing. I don't think it's generally necessary. You get more calcium from green leafy vegetables than you do from dairy. That's a byproduct of the dairy industry. In cardiology, I just saw a lot of people that were over-supplementing with calcium and actually had plaquing in their arteries. Let me be clear. This does not mean this is going to happen to you. I'm just telling you in the context of working with cardiology patients, many of whom already had established disease. We started becoming a little bit more concerned about over-supplementation of calcium. If you're looking at calcium from the perspective of increasing tensile strength of your bones and bone health, lift weights, eat enough protein, get some good sleep, and if you need it, take HRT. That would be my little plug.

Melanie Avalon: I'm currently reading, we talked about this. Are you familiar with Morley Robbins or have you interviewed him or read his book?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not.

Melanie Avalon: So, he wrote The Root Cause Protocol. He basically makes the case that the majority of our health issues are from not enough bioavailable copper, iron overload even if you're anemic, and this enzyme called ceruloplasmin, which nobody's talking about, it's kind of mind-blowing information in there, and he's very extreme with it. I'm very excited to interview him and ask him a lot of questions. I just finished reading the whole section on calcium, and he is not a fan. I will say that leading up to it, before reading that, I was very much on the fence about calcium supplementation. I think it's a very delicate balance and it's needed to be in the correct ratios with magnesium. On top of that, the studies are not so favorable. I haven't done a deep, deep dive overview, but I know there are a lot of studies. The studies are conflicting as far as calcium supplementation and does it have benefits? Is it neutral? Does it have negative effects? I have never felt comfortable supplementing it. He makes the case that unless it's in the correct ratios, which and that's more from whole foods, that he makes the case you're going to cause more harm than good, kind of like what you were saying.

He was pointing out the ratios. He doesn't like dairy, though, either, because he says the calcium-magnesium ratio is so skewed. Like, it's way more calcium than magnesium. Oh, magnesium, I should mention that's the other, the big big mineral for him that he thinks we're all very deficient in and need more of. It's really involved in iron regulation as well. So, stay tuned when I interview him. It's going to be mind-blowing.

Cynthia Thurlow: It sounds really interesting. That's one of the things I like about you is how open minded you are to entertain varying philosophies, perspectives, opinions on health and wellness-related topics.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I love about you as well. I think we're both very open minded. I never feel like with you, I don't ever feel like you immediately shut down anything. I think that's really, really important to be open to different perspectives and thoughts.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, we should all be lifelong learners. Unfortunately, not everyone is. There's some pretty significant cognitive dissonance that is not unique to medicine. I want to just put it out there and just I was taught from a young age and this was reinforced in my medical training to question a lot and be open minded.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I love that. And actually, that reminds me of two questions in our lineup, so I will ask both of them. The first one, Elaine, she wants to know, "Do you ever totally disagree with your interview guest and/or any of the guests disagreeable with you?"

Cynthia Thurlow: I've been really fortunate that, yes, I have had guests that I don't 100% align with. And I think that's okay. It usually means that my team gets an uptick in emails like, why did this person talk more about, only about plant based as being the best protein option? Or why did the guest talk about this? And that's always interesting to navigate. I've never had anyone openly disagreeable on the podcast. I think that I do a really good job of vetting people, I think that we're all aligned in terms of wanting to provide high-quality information and wanting to do it authentically and with integrity. I have never had someone become belligerent or argumentative, and that's so not aligned with my personality. I'm a recovering people pleaser. For me, I have to kind of navigate those boundaries. So for full disclosure, I've interviewed three people for the podcast and I have not put out their episodes and it's been for a variety of different reasons.

Occasionally, I will interview someone and realize after I've interviewed them that it's really not a good fit. It would not serve the purpose of the podcast. I would say that those individuals, although they're lovely human beings, I'm sure the message isn't aligned and it's so far out of alignment that it would have been problematic had I published it. How about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: So, in general, and kind of like what we're just talking about, I really do believe everybody I've brought on, I really do think there's truth in things they're saying. It doesn't mean that I think everything they're saying is true. I sometimes do disagree with them, but I do always think there's truth to be learned or something to be found there. Probably because using the phrase totally disagree, I think the closest I've come to that has been with people very far on either side of the spectrum. You mentioned it either plant based or on the flipside, carnivore. I've had some plant-based people where it was very much like, this is the way and animal products are awful for you and awful for the environment and I disagree with that.

And then on the flipside, I've had carnivore people where it was like, every plant is the devil and I disagree with that as well. So, that would probably be that. As far as any disagreeable with me in general, same experience as Cynthia. Everybody has been so kind, so wonderful. I've had one experience where I felt like the person didn't really want to be there. They had come in through a friend recommendation, which interestingly at the time it was one of my really good friends connected me to this person. And at the time I was like. "Oh, this is great," because it's a personal introduction. They're going to want to be here more because it was through a friend. Thinking back later, I was like, "Oh, that could go either way." It could be they're excited because it's a friend or it could be they're doing it as a favor for the friend. Maybe they didn't want to be there so much. I will say, stepping back the episode was very valuable, amazing information. I'm so honored to have had it. Very grateful for the interview. I just not sure that person exactly wanted to be there.

Which relates to the next question, which was from Theresa, which is, "What is the most embarrassing or awkward moment during an interview?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Probably one of those three non-published podcasts where it was this person in particular went off the rails and didn't realize that the language they were using was very offensive and would have been offensive to listeners. I actually had my team listen to the podcast to confirm that I was not losing my mind and they agreed with me. So, unfortunately, I can't share more than that. I would say that using language that is not appropriate in the context of pejorative statements, is that vague.

Melanie Avalon: It's vague, but it paints a picture.

Cynthia Thurlow: To protect people. [laughs] I think the one thing that I know we're very aligned on is that I will not publish an interview if it is not aligned with my mission. My mission is designed to inspire, educate, and empower women, and it was none of the above, so I will just leave it at that if an interview does not meet my standards, I will not publish it.

Melanie Avalon: I as will be very vague, but I had a guest on who, whenever I start off the show before recording, I ask the guest how much time they have for the episode. And so this guest told me that he had basically ample time, like no time limit. We were recording and early into the episode, he made a comment about time and like running out of time. But it was kind of, like, offhanded. I wasn't sure exactly what he was saying, so I just ignored it. And then a little bit later, we kept talking, and then he just interrupted me mid sentence and we edited it out, so, of course, you can't hear it, but he just interrupted me, and was like, I really have to go now or something. And I was like, "Oh, okay." The way it was presented was that I was basically taking up his time, which I would never want to do. That's why I ask in the very beginning, how much time do they have? I was mortified, I was so mortified.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, but you didn't, I mean, Melanie, that's not a reflection of you. That's a reflection of him.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, if someone said if you were to say, Melanie, I have 40 minutes, you'd be like, cool, I can do 40 minutes. If they give you the green light that you're not on, like, a timetable, then the expectation would be is that you will finish when you finish.

Melanie Avalon: It wasn't far into the-- so it wasn't like an hour in. I think the first comment was, like, 20 minutes in or something, and then the final comment was, like, half an hour in. And I've never, so fun times.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that's not fun.

Melanie Avalon: Here's a fun question from Danielle. "How many of the 50 States have you been to?"

Cynthia Thurlow: I counted, 35. I have been to a lot of places.

Melanie Avalon: If you went to all of them, where do you think would be the last one you would go to and why?

Cynthia Thurlow: Now, let me be clear. I was born in South Carolina, so I love the south. I think there are definitely states that aren't higher on the hierarchy. Maybe a better question is what was I surprised by? Was there a state that I was really surprised by? I don't want to sound like I'm pejorative about any one state over another, but I would say that Alaska, not because I don't want to go, but it's just the distance to get there in terms of the things we have to do to get there from the East Coast. So, Alaska. Definitely want to see Alaska. And I'm just innately curious. Like, I'd love to go to the Dakotas. I've never been there. I love Montana. That was a surprise. I loved Utah. Although I've not been to Idaho. I think now it's just strategically figuring out how to make my way to all the other states. I would say probably Alaska, but only because of the distance.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I was thinking if you hadn't been to Alaska if that would be the one. I've only been to 16. It's mostly the one like the southern-related ones, northeast, and then traveling out to California. I should get on that.

Okay. Some eating and drinking-related questions. We got a lot of questions about what both of us eat. For mine, it was Hollie wanted to know "How do you cook your scallops and how many cucumbers and blueberries do you really eat in a day?" Do you eat anything else other than the previous three mentioned? And then, Mariah wanted to know, "Curious how you consume your ginger and turmeric." Okay, so this is funny. I'm always posting about my scallops, my cucumbers, and my blueberries, especially because I go to Costco. You guys following on Instagram, you will know this. I buy a lot of scallops and cucumbers and blueberries at one time and I post about it. Every time I post about it, I get inundated with DMs about how you cook these, so much to the point that I now have two things. I have a saved auto-reply. Do you use the saved auto-replies, Cynthia? Where you start typing it and then it fills in the rest.

Cynthia Thurlow: I need to, I don't.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, a game changer. [laughs] All I have to type in-- So, if I get a question about this, all I type in is SC for scallop. It fills out my whole answer, which the answer says something about, like, thank you so much. Please see the pinned highlight on my profile so that when people go to my profile, I have a pin post highlight that says how I cook my scallops because I get this question so much. To answer the question, and this will answer about the ginger and turmeric, I put these scallops in a Dutch and a Le Creuset. Do you have Le Creuset?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do.

Melanie Avalon: I love Le Creuset so much. So, a small Dutch oven-type situation. I put the scallops in there. I don't add any water or anything because when you cook it actually makes a water-soupy base, which sounds gross, but it's really good. I add to that, mushrooms, chives, and cilantro. When it's done cooking, I add to that ginger, turmeric, and lemon, and it is delicious. Do I eat anything else other than cucumbers, blueberries, and scallops? Yes. I love the cucumbers because it's very hydrating and it adds a lot of fiber and a lot of bulk, which I love. I love having massive amounts of fruit because that's my carb source, and I digest it well, and I do really well with blueberries. And I used to eat pineapple. The thing I switch around a lot is the meat. I find that being so simple like this, that I specifically crave different meats or types of fish besides the scallops every night.

I eat a ton of scallops, and then I eat whatever meat or fish I'm craving, which will be either chicken or steak or salmon, barramundi, tilapia. I adjust accordingly. Oh, and she wanted to know how many, cucumbers, I probably eat like 10 really really big English cucumbers and blueberries I eat like, I don't know, two and a half pounds, maybe.

The question for Cynthia. Melissa says "Hello, I want to know what Cynthia eats. I know that Melanie eats scallops and cucumbers. I'm a 51-year-old female with 50 pounds to lose. My window is 3 to 9 PM. Oh. And then she has another question. Before I do that, Cynthia, what do you eat?"

Cynthia Thurlow: A lot of meat and a lot of vegetables, steak, bison. We don't eat a lot of fish because my kids don't love fish, and fish is expensive, so my husband sometimes and I will just grill salmon steak. Actually, tonight we're having shrimp scampi as an example. Getting back to your original question, I think as a perimenopausal or menopausal female, based on research, we have to hit these protein thresholds. That's really important. I eat a lot of eggs. I occasionally eat chicken. It's not my favorite protein. I tend to like leaner meats as opposed to fatty meats. If you give me a filet versus a ribeye, I'm going to pick the filet. I learned over the summer through nutrigenomics testing that's actually what my body thrives on is lean meat, not fatty meat.

So, getting back to your original question, I think that on a lot of different levels, my methodology is always 40 to 50 g of protein in a meal and then non-starchy vegetables. It could be roasted cauliflower, it could be broccoli, could be asparagus, mushrooms, salad. I eat a lot of salad while I was traveling just because it allowed me to get in some vegetables. I'm not anti-carb, but I tend to hover, under 75 or under 50 g of carbs most days. On the days where I'm having higher carbohydrates, I may lean into blueberries, I may have just a green banana, which is actually what I had today when I was breaking my fast along with a protein shake. As I'm coming back from being in LA, it's just been a busy day and so it's always protein depending on whether or not I need added fats, I like salted macadamia nuts, I like avocado, I like coconut oil, I like avocado oil, I like butter, my tolerant ghee. I definitely try to mix up my proteins. I think that's important.

Your other question, which she included that, I'm 51 years old, I have 50 pounds to lose. My window is 3 to 9. How does a picky eater get in enough protein? If you look at the research, we have to eat more protein as perimenopausal and menopausal females especially as we're losing estrogen and your menstrual cycle is gone for 10 months. When you're diagnosed with or you're diagnosed, you're told that your menopausal, so 51 is the average age in the United States. I think you have to open up your window to get enough protein. Unless you can get grams in in that protein window and I find most women need a wider window than 5 or 6 hours. Now, Melanie is a really good example. She gets in a lot of protein in a fairly compressed feeding window, but that's probably not the average person. I would really lean into the protein piece. I would experiment with different types of protein. I actually like bison more than I like beef. During the pandemic, we got very creative with proteins. We tried ostrich, we've tried elk, we tried wild boar.

Melanie Avalon: Where do you get ostrich?

Cynthia Thurlow: There's a farm in the Midwest. It's called Blackwing. I have no affiliation with them, but you can definitely try some things there. We started with sausage because I was just like ostrich wasn't something that was super appealing to me, I can tell you. We've tried ostrich twice and it has not been a favorite protein, but, like, elk was good, wild boar was good.

Melanie Avalon: I love elk, ooh.

Cynthia Thurlow: Elk was really good. But I really like bison. I would encourage you to be saying your picky is being pejorative. You can change that, right? Understanding that protein is going to be very important for muscle-protein synthesis. It's going to be very important for satiety. It's going to be very important for maintaining or building muscle. As someone who has identified that you want to lose weight, protein is going to be your friend. You really need to lean into it. If you're sitting down for a meal, one egg is 6 g of protein. You need to eat probably at least four to really get enough of a protein boost and then probably be adding in something else as well. I just find that oftentimes I'm doing, like, a bison burger with two or three eggs and then my vegetables. I'm also currently obsessed with slaw. Shredded cabbage doing it different ways, like a clean coleslaw or like an Asian-inspired slaw. I don't know what it is. I'm going through a cabbage phase, which is both good and bad because I just can't keep enough of it in my house. Hopefully, that's helpful.

Melanie Avalon: It was very helpful. Awesome. I knew you would have that one covered. Okay, so here's something else, Teresa wants to know. "What is your toxic trait as my students would say, or basically an area you need to grow in or some bad habit you need to work on?"

Cynthia Thurlow: I don't think I have a toxic trait. I would say that my area of focus will always be patience because my brain works really fast, and I'm a very methodical thoughtful person. I would say I sometimes struggle with being patient with other people and sometimes being patient in traffic because I grew up in New Jersey, and some of that has kind of stayed in me, although I'm getting better now where I am. I would say that's probably an area I have to constantly work on is being patient. Being patient and being present. How about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think for mine, so I think the thing I've made a ton of improvement on is feeling guilty about everything. I literally will feel guilty about everything. I've worked with my therapist a lot on that. I think a lot of that has to do with how I was raised, like Bible Belt, Christian South, and just like a guilt complex. I think also, I know I'm very obsessive and intense and I think I've made a lot of progress in that as well as far as feeling the need for control over my life, I think just finding that balance of dealing with my own intensity because I can be intense.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think half the battle is just acknowledging I'm like, okay, I need to work on this.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, 100%. I definitely like looking in the mirror. Laura wants to know, "What is something that we would be surprised to learn about you?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Gosh. I think I'm pretty transparent. I would say that I think people make a lot of assumptions, and I say this because this is feedback, I've gotten over the years. People assume I grew up a certain way. People make assumptions that I've had it very easy in life, and I have not had a very easy life, but I've done a lot of internal work. I continue to do a lot of internal work. I try to be as authentic and real as possible. I think people would be surprised to know that I grew up in a pretty unhappy household and with parents that were not very happy people. I had to navigate becoming very resilient in order to excel and do well, given the fact that I wasn't really given the foundation to be able to be a healthy, well-adjusted adult. When I tell you I've been doing therapy since my 20s, I'm not kidding.

I'm a fervent believer in working on yourself, but I wouldn't be who I am if I had grown up in a different environment. I always say that I'm grateful for the experiences that I had because it's made me like the strong, resilient person that I am. It also means I have to constantly work on my own traumas that I've experienced. Again, I think that's why Gabor Mate's book and the book that Gabrielle-- Gabby Bernstein wrote this year were particularly impactful for me because we're constantly working on our stuff, and I think that's what people would be surprised. People assume I grew up very privileged. People assume I grew up very affluent, and I didn't. It made me that kind of scrappy individual that wasn't willing to let people tell me, no. Like, I was like, I'm going to figure this out. I've been able to navigate life pretty well, but with the support and love of good friends, specific family members, having lots of healthy boundaries, which I get better about every day.

Melanie Avalon: That's interesting. My family growing up, at least from my perspective, I'm just overwhelmingly grateful. It was very supportive and loving, and the one message we were always told was that we could do whatever we wanted. As far as career goes, we could do anything, we could achieve any goal, and our parents would support us in that. I'm just overwhelmingly grateful for that. I have three things. One, for the longest time I was terrified of phone calls up until college, like answering the phone. Have I told you this before?

Cynthia Thurlow: No.

Melanie Avalon: I left high school early, before senior year, and my mom was like, Melanie, you can't go to college if you can't answer the phone. I got major phone anxiety and making phone calls, like, "Oh, my goodness." In high school, we had to solicit ads for the newspaper, which required calling people. It was awful. The thing that cured me of it really quickly, I think I've shared this may be on the podcast before is my first internship was with Jerry Bruckheimer, who's one of the biggest producers ever. He does the Pirates of the Caribbean movies and so many things. They literally stuck me on the frontdesk as an intern and made me answer the phone for hours. It was answering the phone for like really, really important people and having this sheet of you had to connect them to the right office and you could not connect them to the wrong office. It was the most stressful experience of my life and that cured me of my phone fears. There's nothing worse than that as far as the phone goes.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, knowing you now, I can't even imagine you having phone fears.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I know. Yeah, especially now because now I'm like doing phone calls 24/7 with random people. I remember that when they set me on that, they weren't supposed to do that. I was an intern. But the assistant had to leave. She was like, can you just cover the desk? And like, here's the stuff. And I was like, what? Like, the HR woman came over and was like, why are you sitting here? I was like, I don't know. They just told me to answer the phones. I think also people think I'm an extrovert. I'm very much an introvert, very much. I'm not shy, but going out is very draining to me.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, that's why being in LA and doing four podcasts and I mean, I got back to my hotel room on Friday and just told my husband. I was like, "I'm ordering room service. I'm packing my bag, and I'm just going to watch something on my Netflix because I don't want to talk to anybody." [chuckles] I'm just done as grateful as I was for that experience. I'm like a rubber band. The rubber band has been stretched out, so the rubber band now needs to decompress.

Melanie Avalon: I have a fear of robots, like big robots, like Transformers. I might have talked about this on the show as well. So, Transformers is really scary to me. The concept of-- if the end of the world or if the next political upheaval involves robot-type machines, what are they called, robots? I don't know. There are all these videos--

Cynthia Thurlow: AI.

Melanie Avalon: AI. Yeah. That is like, terrifying to me. Terrifying. Even the nice ones? Like, even if it was like a really big robot and it was a nice one, like Bumblebee and Transformers. Mm, Mm. No, no. I would have a panic attack. Do you have any crazy fears?

Cynthia Thurlow: Snakes? I'm an all-boy mom, so I had to get really comfortable with bugs. And we have a bearded dragon. We have two dogs. I have a very nature-loving 15-year-old and he has been that way his whole life. Snakes, I am absolutely positively terrified of snakes.

Melanie Avalon: Have you ever had a bad experience with a snake?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I don't know what it is. It's one of those things where, as an example, when we're still living in Northern Virginia, right outside of our walk-out basement, was this nonpoisonous snake. Let me be clear, there are plenty of poisonous snakes in Virginia, but this was not one of them. I looked at it and I said to my husband, it's not going to move because it's clearly just eaten something. So, it was like digesting. My husband when he got home, I made him get rid of it to put it in the woods. I was like, I don't want it anywhere near the house. If I walked out the front door and saw that, I probably would have just been hysterical, which is not the way I normally am. I would say I have an unnatural fear of snakes. Beyond that, there's not a whole lot other than the normal fears that you get as a parent.

I have an ER trauma background from many years ago and I've seen a lot of horrific things that have happened. In the back of my mind, the things that I don't allow myself to process because I don't want them. Like, I can talk openly about snakes, but the fear of anything ever happening significant to my boys. That's a fear that I have. That is not what I'm concerned about. I'm not worried about that. The snake thing, we have a lot of copperheads where we are in Central Virginia. I have to remind my kids, if they see them, like, to just leave them alone. Because sometimes the baby copperheads are actually more poisonous because they have more concentrated venom. Even walking the dogs, we have to be conscientious of that in times when they bred and they have a baby, it's out and just kind of trying to explain to Liam, don't play with it, don't touch it, don't go near it, go away from it, don't mess with it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, what's really interesting about that? I'm just thinking about this because when we say snakes, I know you're saying yours is a natural fear, but a lot of people are scared of snakes. If we say snakes, your first thought, at least for me, is, "Oh, yeah, obviously because they're scary. If you think about it, like, there're a lot of reptiles and why are only certain animals do they have this fear response? Like snakes, most people aren't scared of lizards, but we could just as easily live in a world where lizards are the scary thing.

Cynthia Thurlow: Right, well, and it's funny because Liam at-- I think he was second or third grade and it was the only thing he wanted for his birthday was a reptile. And, my husband and I had to talk about, like, said reptile options, and originally, he wanted a tortoise, and when I started reading about them, and first of all, they live forever, and then they tend to carry a lot of zoological diseases and so we kind of settled on the bearded dragon. And the bearded dragon is quiet. It's totally mellow. He doesn't handle it enough anymore that he can take it out and let it run around, thank God. I had friends mine that were like, I can't believe you let your kid get a reptile. I said, well, first of all, he made, like, a whole-- this won't surprise you, Melanie, but he made a whole presentation for why he needed this reptile.

Melanie Avalon: It's something I would do.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, exactly. I said he had such good arguments about it. We've had Kirby now for, gosh, like, six years. They do live a long time, but he doesn't bother anybody. He's in his cage, he gets fed, he's quiet, and he's not so big that he's scary. I think I would have to be honest and tell you that if I were in Florida and there were the bigger lizards that are there.

Melanie Avalon: The monitor lizards, they're like the size of alligators.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I mean, those are not pleasant. I'm drawing, like, a blank on what the bigger lizards are, crap, big lizard.

Melanie Avalon: The monitor ones are huge.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's like this name recalls sometimes, big lizard, there's actually something called the big lizard, great, iguana. If I were to see an iguana and it fell out of a tree, like, when they get cold, they fall out of the trees. I would probably lose my mind. The statistical likelihood of that ever happening is pretty low. When I saw them in Costa Rica, I just stayed away from them.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, wait wait. They fall out of trees?

Cynthia Thurlow: Because they get cold and then fall out of the trees? Yeah, I would lose my mind if one fell on me. That would be it. I would probably just lose my mind. But otherwise, I'm a really good boy mom. I got in the dirt with my kids. I played with my kids out in the dirt. I definitely didn't pull the girl card, but with a snake, I absolutely would.

Melanie Avalon: That's funny.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I would not be good with that.

Melanie Avalon: We did have an experience growing up because we had a basement where there was a snake behind the toilet, like a big one. I didn't actually see it, but the story was like my mom was like, we found one. This is when I was little, ever since then, I have a habit where when I sit at the toilet, I look behind it to see if there's a snake back there.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, you talk about people in Asia. They'll have boa constrictors that come up through the toilet. I would lose my mind. Like, completely lose my mind.

Melanie Avalon: Like, in the toilet?

Cynthia Thurlow: In the toilet? Yep.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-mm.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I would be officially 'Cuckoo for cocoa puffs'.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.

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Okay, here's a really good question from Eileen. What are your thoughts on the information going around originating from TikTok, possibly, that alcohol stops fat burning for 36 hours?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, that's a good question, but I don't know how long alcohol impacts lipolysis, how long that is. We know that your body processes it as a toxin, so if you eat a massive bolus of food and drink a bunch of alcohol, you have the potentiality for stopping fat loss. I would have to do some reading. I don't know. Melanie, do you have specific research on that?

Melanie Avalon: I didn't research specifically how long alcohol stops fat burning. However, I can say it cannot be true that alcohol stops all fat burning for 36 hours because there are people, myself included, who have been having a nightly glass of wine for years and have lost weight during that time. So, logic says that's an incorrect statement.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's interesting because I'm looking at brown fat activation mitigates alcohol-induced liver steatosis. So it can't be that long. I mean, intellectually, I can't imagine.

Melanie Avalon: Once you process the alcohol, you're not burning the alcohol anymore. There's no way there's a lingering thing that stops you from burning fat, because, like I said, it would be impossible then to lose weight while drinking every night, which so many people do. That literally just says that cannot be a true statement.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, the other thing is, I think it's predicated on other things. Are you 25 years old? Are you 50? We know that as women are getting older, they don't process alcohol as readily. It impacts the detoxification pathways. If you are someone who's insulin resistant and you're drinking a lot of alcohol, I mean, that could be a problem. I think it has to be taken in context. I just did a really quick Doctor Google search, and I didn't see anything that said that specifically. So, don't believe everything you see on TikTok. I think that applies to everything on social media because sometimes my team will state something and we're always very research based. People are like, "Where did that come from?" We will share journal articles with people we're like, this is based on this, and here's the research. But I have never read that. I do think it has to be taken in context, how old are you? Are you insulin resistant? Are you metabolically flexible? Those things can increase the likelihood that alcohol is going to be inflammatory.

Melanie Avalon: Definitely. I'm actually really curious. I listened to an interview on Dave Asprey with this probiotic. Have you heard of this? It's called ZBiotics. Have you heard of it?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not.

Melanie Avalon: I want to reach out to them and learn more. It's this guy who apparently has controversy because it's a genetically modified probiotic. They engineered this probiotic that specifically breaks down acetaldehyde, which is the byproduct of alcohol metabolism, and it's the reason you don't feel well from alcohol. Apparently, this probiotic, like you take it before drinking, because he talks in the interview about how the large percent of acetaldehyde that's formed is in the gut, and so the bacteria breaks it down. It basically mitigates a lot of the negative effects of alcohol. What's interesting is, he says you still get all of the benefits, like the cognitive bit, like feeling tipsy, because people want to feel the feelings. I'm really interested by that, which actually relates to one other question.

Becky said, "Cynthia, I heard you mention on one of your older podcasts that you don't produce enough acetaldehyde dehydrogenase." That is the enzyme that actually breaks down acetaldehyde into acetic acid. You are not getting as many of the negative-- you need it to break down acetaldehyde, which is toxic. She says, "I have the same issue as do some of my kids. I was wondering if you also get a red face, i.e., the Asian flush, and it's called that because that happens a lot in Asian populations when you drink. Have you found anything that helps other than not drinking at all?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Good question. Did I get a red face? Not always. Not that kind of stereotypical red face. I think that the things that I've learned, and I've actually done a TV segment several years ago talking about how to avoid a hangover around New Year's and the things that I think are helpful and beneficial are taking things like NAC before and after drinking, as well as glutathione before bed. We can link that TV segment that I did a few years ago in the show notes. To me, the best way to avoid it is to just abstain. That's what I embrace now, but I acknowledge that people that want to drink want to be able to do it responsibly and not have any untoward effects. I think that I would probably suggest if you're choosing to drink NAC glutathione can be helpful, but also leaning into higher quality options.

We both are huge proponents of Dry Farm Wines. I think about the clear liquors like vodka, gin, also thinking about things like tequila as another option are going to be cleaner than having more traditional wine, having sugary drinks, leaning into bourbon and heavier alcohols that are very likely full of ingredients that could potentially exacerbate a hangover as well as exacerbate symptoms you may experience from drinking.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and that ties in whilst I was saying before that probiotic is specifically one that addresses that. What's interesting about glutathione because that's a really good example and I recently did a whole episode with Nayan Patel about his supplemental glutathione. What's interesting about that is this is what he said and sort of my experience as well it can really help with mitigating the effects of alcohol, but then it also can help you metabolize it faster and so you don't get as much of the tipsy effect that people are looking for.

It's interesting how finding that balance of how can you maximize if people are going in for a certain mental experience but also not have the health issues. I think that's where something like Dry Farm Wines, like Cynthia said. I'm obsessed with Dry Farm Wines. I gifted it to so many people this past Christmas. For listeners, if they would like to get a bottle for a penny, they can go to dryfarmwines.com/ifodcast, that's wine that's low sugar, low alcohol, and tested to be free of toxins and heavy metals, and mold. Yes, there's definitely a lot that you can do to have your drink and eat it too. So, one last one to end. "Teresa wants to know what is your most recent text, who is it to, and what does it say?" We cannot include if this was your most recent one. My most recent one was to you about the show, but before that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Mine was actually to my accountant and he was letting me know that he had sent me some information. I'm actually becoming an S Corp. For listeners, whether they're aware of what that is, but making some changes in my business heading into 2023. My real last official text was from my accountant who was reminding me that he had sent me an email, but otherwise, it would have been for Melanie because that was the next one.

Melanie Avalon: Congrats, by the way, I think I did it about a year ago. It feels very official.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it feels very official and I think we had been teetering on making that decision. This is the year I jokingly say I've always been very fiscally conservative, but this is the year that we've got some more aggressive financial planning within the business and the CPA and I just said now is the time. It's going to be an S Corp, ways to ensure that we are maximizing income and filing taxes properly. I would say fiscal responsibility is number one, but ensuring that I'm very aware, very transparent of what is going to benefit the business the most.

Melanie Avalon: Is it your name? The S Corp?

Cynthia Thurlow: It will be, I think so, although it's interesting, some people like you to do DBA, like doing business as.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I had a DBA leading up to the S Corp. Although I stopped renewing it, so I think it probably is not active anymore.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I had another LLC that I had to pay to deactivate. It's one of those things, they're like, oh, you can't just pay the renewal. You have to pay the fee. Because you didn't renew it on time, you have to pay that too. And I was like, fine.

Melanie Avalon: Always something. There's so much to learn. I feel like I learned so much so fast and I didn't even-- I was working with an accountant as well, but there's just so much.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's why, the way I look at it, they earn their money by maximizing your income and making sure you're paying your taxes properly, but also working within the law to ensure that you are taking every opportunity to be more fiscally appropriate. How's that? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my last text was actually to a podcast guest. I've had Kirk Parsley on the show a ton, so this will be a plug. He's recording right now for, do you listen to? Well, probably not. It's not really our cup of tea, Jocko Podcast?

Cynthia Thurlow: Very aware of him, Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: He is, I think, right now recording with him. I said, "How is hanging out with Jocko." 

Cynthia Thurlow: Did they ever work together?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they're friends. I don't know if they work together, but they're friends.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. The SEAL community is pretty small.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that makes sense. It's funny, I was talking to him about it beforehand because he's like the sleep doctor and that's his focus. We were brainstorming about should he just focus on sleep or other things. I'll be really curious to hear how that went.

Cynthia Thurlow: That sounds very exciting.

Melanie Avalon: I know. So, okie dokie. Well, this has been really fun. And this was part two. We're going to have to at least have a part three because there're still so many good questions.

Cynthia Thurlow: Don't worry for anyone that was asking. There were a lot of questions about hormones, bioidentical hormones, menopause, perimenopause, birth control, and perimenopause, etc., we will absolutely devote some time to those questions. 

Melanie Avalon: We'll get to some of those next time. I actually did I was telling Cynthia we got a lot of questions as well about fasting when we did this and they were all really good. I think I'm going to save them for when we get through the AMAs. Maybe we'll do an AMA IF Podcast episode. Sorry, like a fasting related one. But yeah, so, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show. Like I said, we normally answer a lot of fasting-related questions. You can directly email questions@ifppodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode that will have links to everything that we talked about will be at ifpodcast.com/episode301. And then you can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. I think that is all of the things. Okay. Anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I love this. We'll have to episodically do these kinds of Q&As. I think it's exciting to talk about the things that listeners are interested in learning more about.

Melanie Avalon: I know I'm like really excited because I have the document in front of me and we got through probably half of it, so we probably got one or two more episodes left. It'll be fun. So, okie dokie. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Cynthia's Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Everyday Wellness

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

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Welcome to Episode 300 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The New Year Bundle For Free Plus $10 Off When You Sign Up Today. That’s A 14 Oz Pork Tenderloin, 2 Lbs Of Ground Turkey, And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks Free In Your First Box!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The New Year Bundle For Free Plus $10 Off When You Sign Up Today. That’s A 14 Oz Pork Tenderloin, 2 Lbs Of Ground Turkey, And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks Free In Your First Box!

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Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life

 Listener Q&A: Nicole - What’s one piece of advice you’d give to someone looking to get healthier? 

Listener Q&A: Samantha - I know you are a musical theater fan, what is your favorite musical?

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Listener Q&A: Alani - What are your tricks for keeping your stomach from puffing out?

Listener Q&A: David - Have either of you taken a DNA stool analysis for parasites?

Episode 296: Berberine, Insulin Sensitivity, Glucose Control, Gut Health, Liver Health, Body Recomposition, AMPK Activation, Cholesterol Control, And More!

Listener Q&A: Amy - Loved last episode where you both admitted you color your hair without shame in not using cleaner options. I would be curious what other things are you willing to “bend” the rules for?

ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast.

Listener Q&A: Damon - Laser hair removal, is it worth it?

Listener Q&A: Kimberly - What are your top 3 book recommendations besides your own?

Listener Q&A: Danielle - What is your favorite holiday tradition?

Listener Q&A: Lesley - I work at HOTWORX 24 hour infrared fitness studio. What do you think about a 3d workout? Heat, exercise, infrared sauna?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 300 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

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One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out. So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

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Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

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And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 300 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Very exciting milestone episode here. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow. How are you, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm doing well despite navigating travel back to small airports. I was laughing/texting with you last night sharing all the insights I was gleaming being stuck in an airport for 7 hours with a long delay. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, were talking about the food options, healthy or not, fasting or not in airport layovers, so I'm glad you survived. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I know it's funny. I'm such an observer as an introvert, like, I just love to people watch. The behaviors that I was watching yesterday intermittently between reading a book, listening to a podcast, reading another book, binging on something on Netflix was just the behavioral patterns. I think people feel a lot of pressure to eat constantly when they're in airports, and I just find that all super fascinating. I think I was chronicling how it doesn't matter what airport I go to. I can generally get a naked burger and a salad and that's typically what I do. 

Actually, the waiter yesterday, it was funny. I got off my flight from LA and Chicago and I was like, okay, plenty of time. I have two and a half hours, I'll be great. I went to a restaurant, got my burger, read a book. I was totally by myself. I was totally in my zone. And then get to my gate and then we realized we've got, like, mechanical problems. I guess pilots and stewards, stewardesses are only allowed to fly for a certain amount of time every day because of the mechanical delay it turned into. We had a different flight crew. It was like a seven hour instead of a two and a half hour time in between flights. I was texting with Melanie and I said, and then, it's not a good sign when United rolls out the cart of snacks. And the cart of snacks was gone in about two minutes. It was amazing. People were clearly, “starving.” But it was hilarious to kind of watch all this unfold. So, I'm just grateful to be home and the fact that I got a decent amount of night's sleep, and it's my last business trip of the year, so no more traveling for a while. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I feel like it definitely speaks to just how much well, A, we're inundated with food and food advertising and accessibility and also how food is really just a pastime. Like, if we're bored, I'm sure people were hungry as well. It's a comfort. It fills the gap of boredom. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. I get that, there's no judgment on my part, the psychology behind the way people eat. That's why I always say, like, if you eat enough protein, you're just too full. Even if I had endeavored to eat the bag of Cheez-Its or Goldfish or whatever myriad of stuff they had, I was like, I just grabbed a bottle of water because I was so dehydrated from traveling that I was like, I'll just grab the water, and I'll just try to stay hydrated, and we'll just go from there. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I always fast when traveling. If it was, like, that situation where it was a really long layover, honestly, I would probably still fast. I would probably turn it into a longer fast moment. Just because I don't feel comfortable with lots of food in me and trap. It makes me sluggish and--

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, definitely. I wore-- so people will probably be humored. Like, I've got a whole wardrobe of things I wear when I travel so that I can wear layers. So, I'm never cold, because traveling through Chicago, it was actually the airport was quite cold, which actually wasn't a problem. I was like, okay, I got a sweater. I'll just put that on. I had Spanx, like, leggings on all day because they're super comfortable. They weren't comfortable at, like, hour 18. They were definitely [laughs] when my husband picked me up, I was like, there's too much compression on my stomach and I've been doing a lot of sitting. He was like, “What are you trying to tell me?” I said, “You know how I talk about like there are specific things I wear when I travel. This is not the outfit. If I'm doing more than like 14 hours of travel, there's just too much compression on my stomach.” My stomach was like not happy with me at all. 

Melanie Avalon: I can't wear Spanx at all. That's how you don't have GI issues. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, they're definitely different. They're super comfortable actually. It's just that amount-- it would be like trying to wear like, Lululemon tights all day long and traveling. It's a lot of compression on your gut. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, speaking of--

Cynthia Thurlow: Probably TMI. This is a good segue into our Q&A because it's like there may be a little TMI today. 

Melanie Avalon: So, for listeners, we really wanted to celebrate Episode 300, quite a milestone. There're a lot of episodes, I think actually for every, well, there's only been two other 100 miles markers. So, Episode 100 and Episode 200. I think for both of those we did an AMA episode. So, continuing the tradition going to do and ask me anything. We got so many amazing questions that we're anticipating. This will probably be a part one, part two, maybe a part three. We'll see how it goes. We got so many really great questions in the Facebook Group which people should join, which is IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real foods + Life. That's my personal Facebook group. I asked in that group for ask me anything questions and we got so many. What I did was I divided them into categories. I think we'll just alternate between more personal ones, more health and wellness-related ones. We'll just see where it goes. I have a lot of questions. I'm very excited about this. So, Cynthia, should we jump in?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, we should. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm thinking we might because I have, like I said, it's by categories, so I might alternate with the lifehack ones and the likes and things like that with the more health related. Here's a good lifehack that's kind of both. And this comes from Nicole. "What's one piece of advice you'd give someone looking to get healthier?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, gosh. I think and it's funny, I was out in LA and I did four podcasts and pretty consistently the one for me is sleep as a foundational element to health for anyone at any stage of life. I would say really investing in high quality sleep and really starting with the foundations. Not necessarily rushing to a supplement, but doing the things that we know improve sleep quality, daily exercise, light exposure in the morning, getting off electronics, wearing blue blockers, making sure you don't eat two to three hours before bed unless you're a unicorn. I think those are the things that I really think about. I think we like to make things very complicated. I always say before you even think about adding a supplement, make sure you're doing the sleep hygiene pieces. Sleeping in a cold, dark room. I sleep with a sleep mask. I keep the thermostat at 65 degrees. In fact, it was funny when I came home last night, it was 69 degrees on our second floor. The first thing I said to my family was, “Oh, we're going to drop the thermostat because I need it at 65.” Everyone was like, “We've been sleeping at a much warmer temperature.” And I'm like, “I can't do that.” So, I would probably say focusing in on sleep first and then adding supplements if you still need additional support. How about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: That's a good one. I'm actually surprised I didn't think of sleep as the first thing. Whenever people ask me what's the most important thing for me to focus on, I think I normally do say sleep. So, I'm really glad you tackled it. I was thinking on the diet side of things and I was really torn between eating whole foods not the store, but like, foods in their whole form, because that's macro-agnostic, but I just think if we just return to eating real food, that can have a profound effect on people's health. I was torn between that and fasting [laughs] surprise, but I actually think I would go the whole foods route.

Cynthia Thurlow: And I think that's really important. I am a huge advocate of saying that it all starts with food, and I see so many people that are quick to embrace the latest fad irrespective of what it's leaning into. I just remind people, if we just keep things simple, focusing in on sleep, eating as nutrient dense foods as you can, I think that's really, really helpful.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I obviously think so as well. I think between those two, honestly, if somebody's not addressing those two things and then they address those two things, I think the profound effect it would have on so many people's health would be crazy. You don't even have to be really specific or do like a certain type of diet, but that combined with the sleep, very powerful. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. Keep it simple. I mean if there's one tried-and-true message that I think both of us discuss consistently is keep things simple because if we try to make too many changes all at once, it's overwhelming. It's hard to stay, I hate to use the word compliant, but that's the easiest way to put it. It's hard to be consistent when you're trying to change five things at once. That's what I think most people do. I mean, I certainly have been guilty of it myself, but pick one thing at a time and really lean into it and master it and then move on to something else. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, here's the fun one and she addressed it to me, but we can both answer it. It's from Samantha. She said, “Melanie, I know you are a musical theater fan. What is your favorite musical?” 

So, I'll go ahead and answer that. I think I might have answered this on another AMA. This question, I always feel mischaracterizes me because my answer is musicals that, it sounds like a cop out, like, “Oh, she doesn't watch musicals because she's listing,” the one that everybody says, but I promise you I listen to so many musicals. But there's a reason that these two musicals are what they are, which is Phantom and Wicked. They're just so amazing. But then my runner ups are next to normal Jekyll & Hyde and Hamilton. I know she said your favorite, but there're so many, and then I have, like 50 million more. How about you, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: A few of those I've seen. I grew up in New Jersey, and so my mom really prioritized taking me to Broadway, and so I did that throughout my childhood. For me, I would say Rent I loved. I mean, I still can listen to the music Wicked, I saw that on Broadway with the original cast just by complete happenstance.

Melanie Avalon: Whoa. Okay, I have a question. Oh, I have a question. Did you see it because when it first came out, it was a bomb like it didn't-- Did you see it before it got famous? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I saw it afterwards, it was with Kristin Chenoweth and--

Melanie Avalon: So, there was fanfare surrounding it when you saw it, because when it first came out, it did not take off. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, because it was 2005/2006 somewhere around there, because I was up there for a medical conference, and my girlfriend was like, “We should go see this play.” And I was kind of like, “Okay.” I had no idea what it was really even about. I just saw Hamilton, and I've been wanting to see Hamilton on Broadway for, I don't know, five years and with the pandemic that kind of nixed our ability to do that and that was amazing. To me, I have so much respect and reverence for people that work in the creative arts. I am not the least bit like, don't ask me to sing, don't ask me to act or dance in front of other people. I would be so embarrassed. I'd want to crawl in a hole, but I love to watch really talented people perform. I just have so much respect and admiration because it's so very different than where my zones of genius are.

As I was sitting there watching Hamilton with my husband and my boys, and I was like, “God, I feel so lucky to be in this zone of greatness.” Like, watching these really talented actors and actresses do what they do best.

Melanie Avalon: That is the exact way I feel. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I'm the kind of person, I actually get emotional when I'm watching people when they're really, really good at what they do whether it's dancing or singing or a play. I get a little like teary. It's almost like out of total admiration that I'm witnessing their greatness. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, I feel the same and actually, I had a similar experience. I saw the original cast of Next to Normal. It was one of those things where I went in like you to Wicked like I didn't really know what I was going into and then I was just blown away. Ah, love musicals. 

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Here's another one and this kind of relates to what we were talking about earlier, “What are your tricks for keeping your stomach from puffing out? Do you use Spanx for that?”

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, I don't generally have issues related to bloating. I'm probably blessed genetically with some of this on my own. Obviously, I no longer get a menstrual cycle, but when I did, when I was sometimes right before my period, and I would feel bloated. Spanx is great for that. There're different layers of levels of Spanx, so it's not all so constrictive you feel like you're going to die. For me, quite honestly, it's finding a balance between protein and vegetables. This is going to sound odd, but I'll kind of layer this in. When I'm eating a very protein dense diet and I'm eating cooked vegetables, I have little to no bloating, but if I go on a salad binge, like, I mean, a lot of raw vegetables, that can sometimes give me a little bit of bloat. I have to kind of moderate that. 

I got most of my bloating quite honestly from gluten and dairy. And now that I don't have those in my diet, it's not as much of an issue. But I can tell you, and I know we have a parasite question in this Google Doc that we're looking at when we talk about parasites. I will tell you about my bloating issues, but generally speaking, not a lot. I think a great deal of that has to do with dietary choices and not overeating. Like, I feel so miserable if I've overeaten or if I've eaten too much food that I just-- I know where my sweet spot is and if I'm kind of leaning into the protein and cook vegetables, I do really well. How about you? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, first thing I wrote was just suck it in. [both laughs]

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I mean, here's the other thing before you say the next thing. A lot of people when they talk about bloating, it's really not bloating. It's because their core is not very strong. So, again, I think some of this is just probably innately how I was made. I've always had a pretty strong core and I've always done Pilates. I've always done a lot of core focused work. If you think about your rectus abdominis and your obliques and all these muscles that work together to kind of hold you in and hold you up, if they're not strong, that can contribute to people perceiving that they're having bloating, when it's really just they have muscles that need a little bit of work, if that helps. 

Melanie Avalon: So that's interesting. That writes me of two things. One, I have this childhood memory, I don't know how old I was, I was probably like nine or ten and some aunt commented on my stomach sticking out.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, well, sometimes kids have like lordosis and it's not even that their stomach sticking out, it's they have like a swayed lower back. It has nothing to do with the belly sticking out.

Melanie Avalon: That's what the aunt said. She was like, “Oh, this runs in the family or something.” But do you know how traumatic that is to be told that.

Cynthia Thurlow: People sometimes are thoughtless. I just don't realize they're filters off. It's like you could have said that or just not said that and we would have all been okay.

Melanie Avalon: Not to like a nine or ten-year-old, but what's interesting is, I think this is a fun little also lifehack, I feel like a good way to get a good core workout. So, I saw Trans-Siberian Orchestra recently. I realized I have my crazy concert outfit, which is like this really massive spark-- It looks like a dress, but not really because it's a two-piece, so it's like midriff bearing and then it's this massive sparkly dress. You can see it on my Instagram. It's incredible. In any case, I feel like it's a good hack to get a stomach workout if you wear something like that out, because then you're consciously holding in your stomach, like the entire time, unless you forget. But my first tip was just suck it in.

My second tip [laughs] was based on the digestion and finding the diet that works for you. For me, digestive enzymes are game changers for that. Finding a digestive enzyme supplement that works might help. Also, like Cynthia was saying finding the dietary combination a lot of people-- for me low FODMAP works really well and that keeps me not bloated. Also, oh, here's one. If you go carnivore for a lot of people your stomach will probably get very flat. I experienced that. Whenever I do experiment with a time of just meat, there's zero bloating. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, when and if we get to the parasite question in this episode, we can talk about this because that's how I knew something was very wrong and very, very wrong. I always say going back to an anti-inflammatory, like a real anti-inflammatory diet can sometimes be partial carnivore or carnivore for a couple of weeks can really be hugely impactful. But I always say just perceiving you have bloating is very different than looking six months pregnant bloating. There's that continuum that I think is important to identify. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm starting to think this might be like a four-part episode. It'll be like the AMA month. It'll be like January, the AMA month. [laughs] Okay, so, David, "Have either of you taken a DNA stool analysis for parasites?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, multiple times. I have had parasites, more benign parasites, like Blastocystis, which is very common. Let me just back up and say, it is very common to see parasites even in first world countries. Don't think that, oh, you haven't traveled, there's no way you've been exposed. It's really more about exposure and susceptibility. I think that the really exciting story to share is my Morocco tales, because that's where I got the worst food poisoning of my life. I had probably an acute parasite issue that morphed into a fairly significant parasite issue and we believe is a reason why I ended up developing a ruptured appendix and being so sick and necessitated. So, let me back up further and say that you can have an acute reaction to a parasite infestation and then you can have chronic parasitic infections. I have had both and the second one was harder to tease out. 

But I'm grateful that I have amazing colleagues who, as soon as I told them my symptoms, they were like, you definitely have X. I kept saying, “No, no I've done a GI map and it didn't show it.” And I ended up going through a parasite expert who puts your stool, your poop in a slide and looks at it under a microscope. Microscopy, which is pretty important, and I indeed had two parasites, and I had Candida and I had E. coli. Within one dose of antibiotics, I felt like a different person. There was no question there was something wrong with my gut because I had tremendous bloating. By the end of the day, I looked six months' pregnant, which is a problem because there's no way I'm pregnant. I had horrible, horrible gas, like, distinctively bad foul-smelling gas, and I just didn't feel good.

It didn't matter how much I slept, what I ate. It was like as soon as I ate it started this whole bloating, gas, loose stools situation that went on for probably a month until I had gotten the stool results back. It was actually an expensive test that's done out of a lab in New Mexico, But for me, life changing. I didn't want to go on it. I literally had to take one day of one antibiotic to kill this thing. I was so grateful that I had something that could treat it. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you know what antibiotic it was? 

Cynthia Thurlow: As I am saying this. So, this is Giardia. Giardia is generally transmitted in water. If you have like, as an example, doesn't mean everyone has a well. If you are exposed to contaminated water or people that have Giardia and they don't wash their hands after they go to the bathroom, you can get exposed to it. So, I took tinidazole. It's T-I-N-I-D-A-Z-O-L-E. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. It only took one and it knocks it out? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's like a large bolus of antibiotic. My husband had to be treated, too, even though we didn't test him. Parasites can be transmitted in saliva and sexually. I've done a lot of interesting international travel and this female physician friend of mine was adamant, as soon as I talked to her, she was like, I don't even need to test you, you have Giardia, but I didn't just have Giardia. I had another friend too, [laughs] so it was pretty disgusting. It was like literally one dose of medication and the next day I felt 1000% better. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's crazy. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Aren't you glad you asked it? I saw that question and I was like I will be happy to answer that question because conventional testing for ova and parasites does not always pick this up. Even the GI Map, which I clinically believe is a really really good test, never picked this up. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's one of the things. Because I've done parasite stool testing, I mean, probably multiple times. Honestly, I know some of them have been negative. I don't even remember if some of them pick something up. I just remember at one point I was working with a practitioner and it came back negative. But then he was like, “All your symptoms match parasites.” And he said most people have parasites. He had me do a course of Alinia, are you familiar with that one? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I am not personally, but only because I myself have not written a script for it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah. He said that it was like a game-changing anti-parasite drug that revolutionized so many of his patients and it probably helped. It was during the time when I was at a really not feeling well place health wise, so I don't really know what was doing what, but I did do that. I also have done, I've talked about on the show before, have you taken Mimosa pudica? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not. I've taken a lot of stuff, but I've not taken that. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, Cynthia, and listeners, I know they've heard me talk about it before. Okay, this stuff, I should probably do another round of it. So, it doesn't kill anything. So, you don't get detox effects because it's not making anything angry. It's a very sticky gelatinous, something from some tree or something. The thing that's confusing about it and the reason I'm being so hesitant, like you can look it up, people have pictures. If you put it in water, you'll see that it forms a really long mucusy string. So, you end up passing that regardless. It's going to look like you're passing parasites regardless because it just looks like that after it comes out of you. But it will grab things and I swear to you, [laughs] the things that have come out by taking that were shocking to the point where I was like, I can't keep taking this is too scary. 

And that's the response. There are like groups dedicated to this basically, but it's super cheap. You can get on Amazon, Mimosa pudica and maybe I should make this someday. It's crazy, that's all I can say. It's crazy. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think what's interesting as a traditionally trained provider, it's always amazing to me that there are a lot of herbs and antimicrobials including berberine as an example. It's a potent antimicrobial that can be very effective at getting rid of pathogens and they don't have the same detrimental impact on the gut microbiome that traditional antibiotics do. Let me be clear, there was no other option for me. There was no antimicrobial that was going to kill what I had because it was so substantial and significant. I'm like, I will be forever grateful that I got some validation. But having said that, it's just nice to know that there's a lot out there that we're still learning about herbs and other potent combinations of different ingredients that can be very beneficial at killing off what does not belong. If you need antibiotics to kill off what does not belong, there is no shame in that either. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I think the thing I really want to emphasize about Mimosa is it's not killing anything. It's literally just physically grabbing stuff out of you. That's why people don't get the detox effects like I mentioned. That's why you can actually see an entire thing. It's crazy. [laughs] It's for parasites specifically. Yes, I agree 100% with what you're saying about. There are so many options and alternatives out there and it's nice that there's more and more awareness about it. Especially like with the berberine, people think about that primarily for blood sugar control. We talk about this in Episode 296 with Scott Emmens, I'll put a link to it. It was actually first used in 3000 BC, which is so long ago, and not for blood sugar control. They didn't even know that was a thing back then, but for gut inflammation and yeah, GI health, so crazy.

That actually reminds me of another question on here because I'm not saying antibiotics are bad, but they're definitely something where, there's a cost benefit and we don't want to be inundating ourselves with antibiotics 24/7, but we take them when necessary and they can be life changing like you said. Sort of in that vein, but not really because we don't really have anti-antibiotic rule. But this question is from Amy. She says, “I love the last episode where you both admitted you color your hair without shame [laughs] and not using cleaner options. I would be curious, what other things are you willing to "Bend the rules for?"”

Cynthia Thurlow: I'd probably say, like, if I go to a nice spa, there's an organic one in my area and I know what they use because we have conversations. But if someone takes me for a nice massage or I'm being treated to spa treatments, I do not micromanage what they're using on me because I will then not relax and enjoy myself. I'd probably say things that are leaning into pampering that are like gifts or they're just an experience. It's like I have to kind of readjust my expectations because if I start asking, then I'm going to be hyper focused on everything that's being used and that's actually not a lot of fun. I would probably say that is the other thing that I'm probably-- in that context, I'm probably very laid back versus what I purchase to use on my body at home. Very different. How about you? 

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. When I go to massage or I get my nails done, I always bring my own stuff, [laughs] actually, and that's good for a question later. I used to think it would be cumbersome, but I mean, I have to be always doing my nails because of my Instagram and stuff like that. There's this one oil, I can put a link to it on Amazon. It's an MCT oil, basically, but it's a massage MCT oil, but it's just organic MCT. You can use it for everything. So, when I get a massage, I bring it with me and they don't care. When I get a manicure, it actually makes it cheaper because then I bring that and I don't have to get all the fancy upgrades and I give them that and I just let them use that for all of the lotion and everything and anything else massage oil wise. And then I got so excited because up until recently, I was having to have them use the scrubs that they have there, but over the holidays, Beautycounter came out with a limited edition scrub and a body polish.

Cynthia Thurlow: I have that. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's so good. So, for instance, if they still have that, because they tend to have it past the holidays stock up on it. I stocked up on it. So now I actually bring that-- It's one of the gift sets. Now I actually bring that with me to the nail salon as well. My other things that I bend the rules on, well, with wine at home I only drink, Dry Farm Wines. If I'm going out, I look up people know I do this, I look up every single wine and I find the organic ones and that's how I decide. I really want to make an app for this, by the way, so stay tuned. I should make that a goal for 2023 to get this app out there. If I am at a place and there's no organic wine, I will drink nonorganic wine. [laughs] 

I don't enjoy that, but I will. People know I do Emsculpt religiously. I love it. I am very concerned about the amount of radiation that it gives your body, but I think the benefits that I get from it as far as building muscle are amazing. I don't do it on my abs. People ask me that a lot, but I'm a little bit concerned about doing it right over my organs like that. So, I just do basically my extremities, my thighs, my bottom, my butt, my arms. And then this is a big one. This is a big confession. I'm probably going to be writing about this. I haven't done it yet, but I am contemplating doing Botox preventatively in my forehead. I wasn't going to, but I had a consultation and I don't know, I started really thinking about it, like, the preventative action of it and not having wrinkles down the line. So, I think what I'm going to do is because basically it's a trade-off of putting that because it is a neurotoxin. So, putting that into your body and the cost benefit, you just have to weigh the cost benefit, I think, of what matters to you or not. If I do do it, well, A, I'm going to do a ton of research. B, I really want to write a really epic blog post about this if I do it, because I think people will think if you do Botox that means that the rest of your skin care doesn't matter or that you don't value skincare. I think I want to kind of educate people on again. I need to do the research first, but if I proceed with this route, I want to maybe spread the word or awareness about the cost benefits of Botox and also why it's still super important to have really non-toxic clean skin care and why you might have both. So, we shall see.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and I think that's okay. I've always been very honest. In fact, when I was on Drew's podcast for the second time, we were talking in the context about Liver King. So, I'm sure most listeners know about Liver King and how he predominantly was focusing on this kind of paleolithic lifestyle and eating organ meats. God bless him, he eats organ meats, like, with reckless abandon. Like, it's fascinating. But as soon as I saw him, I remember saying to my son, who was like putting him up on a pedestal, I said you realize that guy is on a lot of steroids. 

Melanie Avalon: That's what everybody says. He denies it. Right? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, what came out recently was his steroids, like his anabolic steroid schedule and his stack of growth hormone and a bunch of other things. So, in that context-

Melanie Avalon: I missed that. 

Cynthia Thurlow: -yeah, I was saying it to Drew, I think it's important for people that are in the public eye that are influencers to be very, it's not like you have to disclose everything, but you should be honest. I think it's important for me as a middle-aged woman, in the context of our conversation, to say every year I do ProFractional, which is laser, stimulates collagen and elastin. I think that has a lot to do with why my skin looks really really good. I think some of its genetics and I think some of it's my lifestyle. And then I do Botox, I've done Botox since I was 38. I started doing Botox because I have always had a super mobile forehead and that's where it started. And I still do Botox a couple of times a year. I have done filler a few times. I've had it reversed as well.

I think a lot of if-- you chose to go that route and there's no judgment if you do. You want to work with someone that's incredibly talented. You should never look like you've had work. You should never look like your face is immobile. You should never look like your lips look, like this is just my personal opinion. You shouldn't look like you have massive lips and like crazy high cheekbones and just understanding. I think those products are designed to be used subtly, but I think if you see some people that are in Hollywood that are like the extremes, too much of any one thing is not a good thing. In the context of this conversation, I feel like I should be transparent and say that obviously a laser is pretty benign in terms of stimulating collagen and elastin. I don't per se have a problem with using Botox or fillers very discriminately because so much of the rest of my life is so incredibly healthy and balanced.

And to the person in my DMs recently who was giving me a hard time about the fact that I shared those things. Yeah, this is why people that are in, whether they're influencers, they're in the public eye, this is why people honestly don't want to share because they don't want to be criticized. But I don't care if anyone agrees or disagrees with that decision because to me it's my decision. With that being said, I think I would be doing the listeners a disservice if I didn't share that as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you for sharing that and I am so enjoying this conversation. I have some quick thoughts and questions. One, mentioning the laser, is that the same thing as BBL? 

Cynthia Thurlow: So, I'm going to say BroadBand Light is different than the Brazilian butt lift because I very innocently last year said, “Oh, I got BBL.” And people were like, “You did?” 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you said that to me. I remember you were like, you said you were getting BBL. So, something about the next day and I was like, “Oh goodness, that's like an intense surgery,” because I think we still recorded a podcast maybe the next day. I was like, “How is she doing this right now.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, this tells you how long I've been doing BBL. It was preceded the Brazilian butt lift, which I'm told is going out of favor according to my plastic surgeon friends, which is a whole separate tangential rabbit hole that we won't jump down. In conjunction with ProFractional, I do BBL and what it's doing is any brown pigmentation. I don't have a lot of hyperpigmentation in my skin. We do that preceding the ProFractional. I hate it. I hate both of them honestly. It's like a love-hate. I'm doing it in January, which is usually the month I do it. I hide for four days and then I feel fine. With that being said, the laser in and of itself is looking for the pigmentation helps dissolve it. If you have some brown pigmentation, the laser will identify it, it will help dissipate it, but it will actually get darker for a couple of days or maybe a week and then it goes away. 

For me, I think the two of those together have been super powerful. But, for anyone that's just doing BBL - BroadBand Light, it is not painless. Make sure whoever you're working with is like getting you prepared for that because it's almost like having a rubber band snapped against your skin. As you can well imagine, doing it once is not a big deal. If they're doing your whole face that can be painful. Just make sure that they're giving you either topical lidocaine or giving you something to make you feel comfortable. 

Melanie Avalon: Although caveat, also check and make sure your practitioner lets you use that because it was during the podcast last time when we were talking about I was going to go do it and then I put on numbing cream during the podcast, which apparently is some people let you. But, where I went to Ideal Image, which I'll say their name because I think they're the biggest. They're like the go-to place. They do not let you use numbing cream. So, do not use numbing cream if you're going to them.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and my practitioner, they put it on for you. Like when you arrive, you arrive an hour before your treatment and they put it on for you. With very few exceptions, I'm very comfortable with BBL. There are spots when they do ProFractional that are tender, like along your forehead line. It freaks me out when they do underneath my eyes and my nose is a little sensitive, but beyond that, not bad. Not bad at all. 

Melanie Avalon: I've heard that old therapy is the most painful thing.

Cynthia Thurlow: Morpheus is supposed to be very, very painful. I'm not ready, if someone were to give and actually the person I go to who trains providers all over the United States doesn't use those technologies yet, because she still feels like ProFractional has just as much benefits. But every time I see her, I'm like, “So what's the latest?” And then she'll kind of get me caught up.

Melanie Avalon: What's really interesting though, because you mentioned the laser, so I was talking with a friend about whether or not I should do Botox or not. It's funny because he mentioned people doing lasers and Botox and whether or not you talk about it on social media, it's interesting that for some reason, Botox, I think, has more of a stigma. I have literally no issue talking about BBL or lasers or that seems almost like biohacking in a way, but for some reason, Botox feels more fake. I don't know why because I was thinking about it more, it's not even affecting your skin, it's just paralyzing the muscle underneath so you're not wrinkling your forehead all the time and not forming those lines that last. So, I find that really interesting. I mean, I think you could make the argument that well, maybe not it's because you can make the argument that Botox is biohacking [laughs] but--

Cynthia Thurlow: I think you could and here's the thing, like, I just interviewed Dr. Amy Killen, who's a female biohacker physician, and she's so knowledgeable and offline we were having discussion about some of the things that she does. She's very transparent and that's why I hope to be just as much for listeners so they can kind of get a true sense, like some of this is genetic, some of its lifestyle, and then I get help from other things. That's what we're sharing in the context of this conversation. Amy was talking about, she does all the things, PRP, stem cell stuff. It's very interesting. There's a continuum. It's all very relative. To some people, Botox may be like taboo and then others are like, "I'll do everything up to surgery." Some people are like, "I want to do everything up to surgery and surgery," and there's no judgment provided that you can afford it and you're not body dysmorphic. I think that everyone has to decide what they're comfortable with and what makes sense. From my perspective, I just wanted to add that caveat that I think I want to be fully transparent as a 51-year-old female that I try to do as many things as I can to feel as good as I look internally and reflect that externally as well.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I could not agree more. And then when I was talking to that friend, I said, I was like, “Well, it's a neurotoxin.” He was like, “Well, wine is a neurotoxin.” I was like good point [laughs] or alcohol. Yeah, no, I agree with the perspective and what's important to you and no judgment and just do you.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it's just a healthier space to exist, and I don't have the emotional bandwidth to sit around and be judgy of other people's choices. It's like as long as you're not hurting anyone, there's very few absolutes where I'm okay, that's not a good decision. If you're harming yourself, a child, an animal, other humans, that's not good. Beyond that, it's like, I just don't have the bandwidth to worry about what everyone else is doing. It's like, if it works for you, that's great. If it doesn't, then course correct. 

Melanie Avalon: Also, one last thing to that point and I mentioned this earlier, but it's like, oh, if you're getting Botox, people might think you're lying about the importance of safe skin care or antiaging skin care. But, if you think about it, they're all really important. Like doing a process where you're paralyzing the muscle and keeping wrinkles from forming from just the mechanics of your skin doesn't negate the super overwhelming importance of taking care of your skin. Like, you would still need to do both.

Cynthia Thurlow: I take AG1 several times a week after working out and when I’m ready to break my fast and it really makes me feel unstoppable. I love to add it to a protein smoothie or actually will drink it with filtered water and I love both variations. My 17-year-old also enjoys AG1 after a workout to ensure he stays really well hydrated. A great deal of what I focus on in my personal life is ongoing gut health improvement. I do feel fundamentally that AG1 has contributed significantly to improvements in my gut health over the last three years. I feel as if the key health benefits from multivitamins, minerals, pre and postbiotics all work together synergistically to improve my gut microbiome. AG1 is way more than just greens. It’s important to note that it’s made with 75 super high-quality vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients that deliver incredible benefits to the gut microbiome, as well as sleep support, assistance with energy, and so much more.

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Melanie Avalon: Damon wanted to know, laser hair removal, is it worth it?

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh my God, yes. Oh my God, yes. It's funny. You do laser therapy and then you realize in your 40s into your early 50s, you don't have as much body hair. So, I'm like, what was I thinking. I went gangbusters in my 30s. Yes, yes, yes.

Melanie Avalon: I agree. I don't think I commented on barely any of the comments in the thread. But when I saw this one, all I did was I wrote yes, all caps.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, well, think about it. People spend years doing bikini waxes and electrolysis.

Melanie Avalon: And think about forgetting to shave your underarms or your legs. You don't have to anymore.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, although it's funny, I did my legs and my bikini area and I guess I took too well to it because I bought a package. They were like, literally “You've done so well. What else can we do? What else can we do for you?” For me, it was like life changing because I had done like, bikini waxes every month forever and eternity, and then all of a sudden I was like, this is great. 

Melanie Avalon: It's funny because when they try to sell you stuff and they're like, “This will be the best thing ever,” and you're like, “But really?” No, it really is. [laughs] 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, it's resounding. It is worth every penny, every single penny. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I've done the Brazilian, the arms, the legs. Now I'm doing the upper lip. I think that's everything. [laughs] There's nothing left.

Cynthia Thurlow: I had blonde hair on my face. I've been just doing dermaplaning because to me and it's like, here's a fun topic for conversation. During the pandemic, when I could not get to get threaded or dermaplaning or anything, my anesthetician had recommended something called Tinkle, T-I-N-K-L-E. You can find it on Amazon. It's like really inexpensive and it's a little like razor for women, so you can get rid of fuzz on your face. Oh my God life changing. I literally was like, what was I spending all this money on threading for, for years [laughs] and then waxing before that. I was like, “Oh my God.” 

Melanie Avalon: Is it special or is it just a little razor? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, so it's for your face and it's not as strong as what a man would use. To me, it's like I can use it in between facials. And it's amazing, just amazing. For all those little weird hairs, if you like mind just tweeze them. I'm like, “Oh my God, this is amazing.” So highly recommend.

Melanie Avalon: They always have these at Marshalls and TJ Maxx. Maybe not that brand, but I use those or I used to. Oh no, I still do because I'm still doing the upper lip. Okay, here's back to non-skincare health, beauty-related things. What are your top three book recommendations besides your own?

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, I've given this a lot of thought, I would say the books that are really in terms of health and wellness, I'm going to just leave it there because there're so many books. I would say the books that really shifted my perspective on a lot of different things, XX Brain by Dr. Lisa Mosconi, who I've been trying to interview for a year. She's like knee deep in research. She works at Cornell. That book helped me solidify why women-- and this is my opinion why women can benefit from hormone replacement therapy.

I would say the other book that I found really helpful, like in that space is Why Estrogen Matters by Dr. Avrum Bluming and Carol Tavris. I have had him on the podcast. We will link that in the show notes. The Women's Health Initiative is probably the most detrimental study that's ever been conducted on women in terms of the net impact on practitioners prescribing hormones and women taking hormones. You have a whole generation of clinicians and women who are fearful to take and/or prescribe medications. 

I would say, most recently, a book that really has had what I would say is this book, is the book I can read now because I've done the work. The Myth of Normal by Dr. Gabor Mate and that podcast will be out with him on December 24th. So, talking about the role of trauma in your life, I mean, he's changing the narrative for the way that we view trauma and doing it in a way that is through the lens of compassion and as someone that's a survivor of childhood trauma, both physical and emotional. For me, that book just allowed me to view my parents from a very compassionate lens. I would say those books right now in terms of health and wellness are the books that I probably recommend the most. For full disclosure, they're not easy-breezy reads. Lisa Mosconi's book, I think, is one that I recommend quite a bit to patients and clients that is more accessible. Myth of Normal is excellent, it's long and I would say that Why Estrogen Matters is a good read as well. How about you? 

Melanie Avalon: That's really awesome recommendations. So, I think my favorite is Lifespan. Oh, wait. No, I'm torn. Well, okay. So, Lifespan, David Sinclair's book, Why We Age and Why We Don't Have To. It's basically just everything I'm obsessed with. And what I love, when I interviewed him on the show, I might have told you this. Did you know he drew all of the characters in the back? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Really? So talented. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He said that because in the very back there's hand drawn pictures of the people and everything. He drew all of those. He said he drew them because he wanted to put the actual pictures or whatever, but they couldn't get the rights to everything. So, he's like, “I'll just draw it.” [laughs] Isn't that crazy? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, that's along the lines of, like, when I'm in awe of people that are doing something artistic on a stage in the performing arts, okay, there's another level to my respect for him. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, it's insane. And if so you listen to my, that was the first interview I had with him. If you listen to it, he tells me this in real time, and I'm just, like, in shock, in shock. I'll probably say, this is so hard. You know what I haven't read The Paleo Solution since I read it in, like, 2012. But that's what changed my life. Like, that's the reason I'm doing what I'm doing today. Robb Wolf's book, I think I will have to include that I'm torn between James Nestor's Breath and I think I might have to do Kelly McGonigal's The Upside of Stress just because that book-- I need to try to get her on the show. That book was so valuable for me because I started stressing so much about stress, which, yes, stress has a lot of negative health effects. That's no surprise. It's not really negotiable. There's this whole aspect to it where perception affects how stress affects you. And so, reading that book took the biggest weight off of my shoulders about stress and how you can reframe your experience of stress and use it to your benefit rather than as a detriment. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I love that. It's someone said to me years ago, trying to pick your favorite book is like trying to pick your favorite child, it's impossible. Where I sit, where my desk is in my study, I literally have the ability to see hundreds of books. It's so hard because there're so many great books that I've read, but it's impossible to have a favorite. Just for listeners to understand, those are the three that have had the most impact on me. They've just completely blown my mind. Obviously, the ones that Melanie is identifying, two out of three I've already read. But I'm always reading. Just like, Melanie, I've actually got Sally Norton's new book on my floor to read, I'm like after I get done with podcast prep for this week. 

Melanie Avalon: I feel so bad because I always get her confused with Susan Owens because they both talk about oxalates a lot. I've had her on the show.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, this will be my first time. I've had one other oxalate expert who I think is trained with her, but her book is coming out. So, I was like, it's probably time to revisit the oxalate issue. 

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. I didn't realize she had a new book coming out. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's called Toxic Superfoods. [laughs] I'm sure there will be lots of overlap with Gundry's kind of methodologies about plant-based toxins.

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. Awesome. Here's a quick one. This is from Danielle, "What is your favorite holiday tradition?"

Cynthia Thurlow: I think a lot of the traditions that are important for us is just a lot of togetherness, a lot of disconnection from work and social media and things like that. I would say there're a lot of things that we have done as a family including like decorating the tree, decorating the house, making cookies. When my kids were younger, they were more interested, invested in those things. But I think it's the quietness around, like Christmas Eve when we go to Mass and then we read particular Christmas books and then there's a nice meal and just savoring that time. There was a recent study that came out and it talked about how much time you spend with different people throughout your lifetime. As someone with a 17-year-old and 15-year-old, I read this study and my heart hurt. The great thing that I'm going to bring to this conversation is that it just reaffirms why it's so important to connect with one another. 

So, when I think about holidays, I just see it as connection, like spending time together, making meals together, making memories together, not per se, like one specific thing, like do we drive around and look at Christmas lights? Yes. Do we make specific kinds of meals? Yes. But what I value the most, especially now that my kids are older, is just being together, being silly, watching movies, trying to deal with all of the challenges of navigating in laws and parents and expectations for kids and everything else. How about you? Does your family have special traditions around Christmas or the holidays? 

Melanie Avalon: Well, first of all, I'm obsessed with everything Christmas, and mine was basically the same on Christmas Eve, we'd always had a tradition growing up of opening like, one present the night before and trying to make it a present that is something we could do together. Normally it's like if somebody gave somebody a game or something, and then we would do the gift and yeah, that's always been my favorite thing hands down. We are a big wine loving family. Having the Christmas wine and opening the presents and the Christmas Eve and playing the music, Trans-Siberian Orchestra, I am all about it. I love it. Actually, what we've started doing, I feel like it's been ever since everybody's been adults, it's been changing around. Now sometimes I think last year, maybe even the year before, we opened all of our presents just on Christmas Eve, the night before, because people are more, I don't know, spirited and lively in the evening than coming all over during the day.

Cynthia Thurlow: We've tried that. My kids always beg. My husband's kind of a traditionalist about the gift stuff. I think because I grew up with divorced parents, we just opened gifts. When we opened gifts, it wasn't regimented. My kids every year are like, can't we just open gifts on Christmas Eve. And my husband gets very rigid. I just always say, my husband's 90% of the time he's really easy going, and if he gets fixated one thing, I just tell the kids, back off. So, yeah, they're allowed to open one gift on Christmas Eve and then the rest on Christmas. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. We didn't start doing this until very recently, and we're all very much adults now, but growing up like your kids' age, we never did more than one the night before. I don't think we even wanted to. My dad is that way with Monopoly, because Monopoly is always the game we would always play, and we'd always want to do things like play how there's, like, 50 million spin offs of Monopoly, like, all the different themes? No, he, like, only wants to play the original. We would always have debates about, like, the rules and because there's a lot of, I think, like, little fun things you can add or change the rules little bit, nope. [laughs] It had to be the traditional way in the rule book. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm married to an engineer, so I'll just leave that there. Anyone that's married to engineers, know engineers, you understand they can be a little rigid sometimes, but I give him a lot of credit because he's usually pretty laid back about a lot of other things. 

Melanie Avalon: So funny. Two last quick ones. So, one is sort of health related. Leslie says, “I work at HOTWORX, 24 hours Infrared Fitness Studio. What do you think about a 3D workout heat exercise infrared sauna?” 

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, I know exactly what HOTWORX is and I love the idea. I'm going to come at this from two lenses. So, number one, I hate being hot, really hot when I'm exercising. Hate it. Like warm yoga, good. Ashtanga yoga, that's at 105 degrees. No, don't enjoy it at all. For me personally that would be a no, because I just don't enjoy being really hot unless it's hot because I'm exercising at a level that I'm increasing my basal metabolic rate and my internal thermostat.

Number two, I think the concept of a 3D workout sounds great. I think it's probably highly bio individual. If you are a 25-year-old woman who is really lean and you're pushing yourself all the time, and you're not getting a menstrual cycle and you're overdoing it, I kind of call it the triad of over fasting, over exercising, over restricting. 

But I think for probably the average person, it's probably, like, a fun way to exercise. We have to think about what heat and exercise are. They're forms of hormesis. It's the right amount of stress at the right time. I think that it's important to recognize where are you in your cycle, how is your sleep, what's your stress like. Like, it's just adding additional stressors to your body. I think in the context of someone who's sleeping well, who's in the follicular phase of their menstrual cycle, who doesn't have too much stress, that's not overdoing it and is staying hydrated, it's probably fun. That would be my guess. 

Melanie Avalon: That was basically my answer, was that I think it could be really great like, it can be a great way of hacking and getting more bang for your buck as far as benefits go. But you also need to know yourself. I'm literally just spitting out what you just said. You have to know yourself and some people it's going to be too much and it's going to be overdoing it and it's not going to have the beneficial effects in the long term because it's not allowing the adequate recovery in between. And if it's fitting into an overly stressful lifestyle anyway, it might not be the way to go. I think you really just have to know yourself. I haven't done HOTWORKX. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. no offense to anyone who loves working out in a super hot environment. I hate it. I've been that way my whole life. Hate it with a capital H. For me, like if I went to the gym and it was cold in the gym, good. If I walk outside and it's kind of hot and humid, not as interested in walking as long. But it's not that I don't see the utility I just personally hate being that hot. I hate it, just despise it. The only thing I can compare it to is like, being in Morocco, which was like an oven. [laughs] We're telling my husband I don't think we'll ever come back because it was just so hot. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm the same besides my sauna sessions where the purpose is being hot and it's relaxing, especially with infrared, not getting that hot. But I'm not about the heat. I'm all about the cold. are you guys getting a crazy cold front because it's getting down next week to 10 degrees. It doesn't get 10 degrees here. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Atlanta is going to be in a kerfuffle. Yeah. For me, it's like when I walked my dogs this morning, it was 30 degrees and it's like perfect for them. I put a hat on, I've got a light jacket on and I'm totally happy. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so pumped. Especially because the last few years has been warm on Christmas, it's going to be like 15 degrees. I am all about it. This is going to be great. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I just feel like Christmas should be cold. We had, gosh it was probably ten years ago, we got snow in Virginia on Christmas Eve and it was like a dusting, but that's still like in Northern Virginia that's a shutdown mode. Everyone's freaking out. I was like, this is completely appropriate.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just worried about ever since that Texas, was it Austin or wherever when it got really cold and didn't it mess up all of the water, like the pipes and everything. I'm like, please, that cannot happen. [laughs] I need my toilet.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, you know what they always say. I lived in a neighborhood in Northern Virginia and most of the homes were new construction when people bought them and the builder knucklehead that they were a lot of exterior pipes were freezing during really cold spells. If you're ever concerned about your water freezing in a pipe. You can always keep your water like a little drip just to kind of keep things moving. Yeah, lots of experience with friends who went through that. Not fun. Not fun at all. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they always post-- when it starts getting cold they post signs everywhere saying, “Freeze warning and let your faucets drip.” Okay, well, this was fun. This is definitely going to be a two-parter. I'm thinking it's probably going to be a three-parter, maybe a four-parter. 

In any case, for listeners, if they would like to submit their own questions for the show and if this is your first episode listening, which since we get so many listeners, it probably is somebody's first episode listening, welcome to that person. Normally we talk about Intermittent Fasting a little bit more. You can submit your own questions to questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will be @ifpodcast.com/episode300. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So, definitely check that out and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. I think that is all the things. Well, this is been really, really fun, Cynthia. Anything from you, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I'm looking forward to round number two.

Melanie Avalon: All right, sounds good. I will talk to you next week. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

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Welcome to Episode 299 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

mANUKORA: Support optimal immune and digestive health with Manukora. delicious, raw, sustainable, traceable Manuka honey from New Zealand. Manukora superpower honey is high in antioxidants, prebiotics, and the natural antibacterial MGO compound. Go to manukora.com/ifpodcast for a FREE pack of honey sticks with your order!

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Get $30 Off A CGM At Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #59 - Cynthia Thurlow 

Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program For Women To Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, And Slow Aging

Everyday Wellness Podcast 

Cynthia's Personal Journey With Fasting

Intermittent Fasting: Transformational Technique | Cynthia Thurlow | TEDxGreenville

Best Practices For Fasting For Women?

OMAD

Fasting And Feeding For Your Cycle; Is It Intuitive?

The First Two Weeks Of Your Cycle

Nutrition For Your Cycle

The Lack Of Research On Cycling Women

Ep. 188 – Troubleshooting Your Fasting Method With Megan Ramos

Extended Fasting

What Can Effect Our Cycles The Most?

MANUKORA: Go to manukora.com/ifpodcast for a FREE pack of honey sticks with your order!

Amenorrhea

Hormonal Dysregulation

The Effect Of Fasting On Hormones; PCOS & Thyroid Regulation

Weight Loss And Adipose Tissue

Autoimmunity

Carbohydrate Intake, Low Carb Diets

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #75 - Joel Greene (Part 1)

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #88 - Joel Greene (Part 2)

Cortisol

Testing Cortisol

What Should We Be Testing?

Oxytocin

NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM At Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST

Clean Fasting, Breaking Your Fast

Coffee

Using A Glucometer

DHEA

Having Your Sleep And Stress Dialed In Before Beginning Fasting

Melatonin

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #112 - Dr. John Lieurance

CBD

Perimenopause

Mindset

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 299 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 299 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and we have a special episode for you today. We are actually going to air an episode from 2022 when Cynthia Thurlow came on my other show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, to talk about her book Intermittent Fasting Transformation. I was recently looking at the downloads, all from 2022, and this episode was actually one of my most popular episodes of last year. It's a really great deep dive into all things fasting, especially for women. I really think you guys will enjoy this. These show notes for the episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode299. Of course, we are normally a listener, Q&A format style show. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, just directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can also follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. Without further ado, please enjoy this wonderful conversation with me and Cynthia Thurlow.

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It is so important to replenish electrolytes if you want to have energy and an active lifestyle. A lot of people experience the keto flu or issues while fasting, like headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness. These are all common symptoms of electrolyte deficiency. You might think you're not doing well with fasting or that the keto diet isn't for you when really you just need electrolytes. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body, including the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. If you'd like to learn all about the science of electrolytes and get answers to commonly asked questions, definitely check out the interview I did with my hero Robb Wolf on this show. He's also one of the co-founders of LMNT. There have been moments in my life where I needed electrolytes and drinking some LMNT took me from a state of fatigue to feeling like my body was actually alive.

Of course, it can be hard to find electrolytes, which are clean and good to put in your body. That's why I adore LMNT. LMNT is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything you need and nothing you don't. That's a science-packed electrolyte ratio 1000 mg of sodium, 200 mg of potassium, and 60 mg of magnesium with none of the junk. No sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no gluten, no fillers, no BS, because we don't have time for that. You guys know I'm obsessed with purity and quality of supplements. LMNT is the electrolyte supplement that I recommend. When you sweat, the primary electrolyte lost is sodium. When sodium is not replaced, a common side effect is muscle cramps and fatigue. LMNT is used by everyone, including NBA, NFL, and NHL players, Olympic athletes, Navy SEALS, and of course, everyday moms and dads, those practicing intermittent fasting, the keto or paleo diet, and exercise enthusiasts.

Right now, LMNT has a fantastic offer for our audience. You can get a free sample pack with any purchase. That's eight single-serving packets of eight different flavors for free with any LMNT order. Yes, the raw unfavored version is clean fast friendly. This is a great way to try all eight flavors or share LMNT with a salty friend. Get yours at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom/ifpodcast. Try it, totally risk-free. If you don't like it, share it with a salty friend and they will give you your money back, no questions asked. You literally have nothing to lose. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup maybe playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years. 

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means, when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so, you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their overnight resurfacing peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare, a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation that I am about to have. It is with, first of all, a repeat guest, which I guess that my audience absolutely loved the first episode that we did. But not only that, this guest is such a good friend of mine. I was actually thinking about this right before starting, how there are some people in your life that it's weird to think of a time when you didn't know them or when they weren't in their life because I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow and Cynthia, I was thinking back to when we first met and how did we get connected originally?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think you had reached out after that second TED Talk. I just recall it was like summer of 2019, 2020.

Melanie Avalon: It might have been through Gin, maybe, Is that possible?

Cynthia Thurlow: Could have been, absolutely. I just remember how polite you were.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Good times. In any case, I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow, she is a nurse practitioner, CEO, and founder of the Everyday Wellness Project. Like she just mentioned, she has two TED Talks on Intermittent Fasting, which kind of really catapulted her into the intermittent fasting fame world. She has a new book coming out, which is so exciting. That's why we're bringing her back on the show. I had her on the show earlier. I'll put a link to that in the show notes, and it was just intermittent fasting and women and female and hormones and all the things. Her new book coming out is called Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. I will say this book, listeners, as you may be familiar, I'm also the host of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

I'm thinking about intermittent fasting all the time, I'm talking about it all the time. I'm always really curious when a new book comes out that's focusing on it because I'm always just wondering, what approach are they going to take? What am I going to learn? What type of information will be in this book? Friends, listeners I cannot encourage you enough. Men and women, but especially women out there, get this book. It is so comprehensive, so amazing. It covers everything about intermittent fasting, how to do it, a really wonderful approach, in my opinion, to the role of diet and diet quality and macronutrients and what to focus on with all of that. A deep deep dive into hormones, into women's cycles. It's just such an incredible resource. I'm grateful, Cynthia, that you wrote this book, and I'm thrilled for it to release. I'm really excited for you. So, listeners, I will put a link to that in the show notes, Cynthia, thank you so much for being here.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, thank you for having me in. That of course, wonderful introduction. For listeners that are listening to this, as I tell everyone, I'm just a shy introvert who did a talk that really changed the trajectory of everything I was doing. I feel really committed to helping women navigate irrespective of their age or their stage of life they're in, to be able to make decisions and new strategies that can allow them to live their best lives.

Melanie Avalon: You are definitely doing that. I will also put a plug; you also host the Everyday Wellness Podcast, if listeners are not listening to that podcast as well. Really, really awesome podcast. A lot of overlap, a lot of the guests that I've had on my show as well, a nice focus on, again, women, hormones, all of that. So, definitely check out that podcast. I actually have a question about your personal story to start things off, and you talk about your personal story in the book, which is really valuable, about the intermittent fasting. Did you anticipate I think about this with my own journey because when I first wrote my book, it was intermittent fasting, paleo, and wine, I didn't anticipate that intermittent fasting was going to become like the thing. I know your TED Talk was about it, but prior to that, did you anticipate that it was going to become the sensation that it is today? How much of a role does it actually play in your day-to-day practice with patients?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that's a great question. I myself fell down the intermittent fasting rabbit hole in 2015. Initially, it was just something I did. It was something I did to help support my health. I was in a position where I was stuck with a weight loss issue relevant to perimenopause. It just started to literally bleed into the work I was doing with women. Of course, I left clinical medicine in 2016 and really became part of nearly every program I worked in with women. The irony is, in 2018, I decided to do a TED Talk. I thought that would be a challenging thing to do as an introvert, a safe thing to do. Initially, my first talk was on perimenopause and around the time that I accepted that talk, I was approached about doing another one in the state that I was born in, which was really special to me, largely because South Carolina, I have so many wonderful memories from spending my summers with my grandmother in South Carolina.

Obviously, you can't do a second TED Talk that is even vaguely reminiscent to your first. I looked at my husband and this is probably December of 2018, and said, what do I know a lot about? He said intermittent fasting. I told the organizers; I'm going to talk about intermittent fasting. It was that easy of a decision. No, I never would have guessed that would have been a strategy that I would be really well known for. I can tell you I just about fell over when that talk started going viral, largely because I had gotten so sick prior to giving it. I love the fact that as a traditional allopathic trained nurse practitioner, I can empower men and women to embrace a strategy that really isn't new or novel. I think on so many levels, individuals really believe that it's something new. I just remind them as I'm sure you and Gin do on your own podcasts, that are specific to fasting, that it really dates back to biblical times.

It was just as much a surprise to my family as it was to me that this is now what I'm known for. The irony is, this book really came out of the work I was doing with women. The IF:45 plan that is depicted in the book was what came out of all of a sudden, I had to scramble to try to create things to meet the needs of people that were coming to me saying, "Hey, if you're someone that really knows how to strategize about fasting, can you help me?" This has really become three years' worth of work to be able to then share the programs that I've created with the masses. Some more people, maybe not everyone, can work with me personally, but they now can have some insights into my background and methodologies for this program that I created.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that was actually a huge question I had about the programs and the book and everything because there are so many different intermittent fasting approaches. Obviously one of the biggest questions we get on the Intermittent Fasting Podcast and just in general, is fasting is safe for women and how should women approach be fasting. In your experience working with women, like the IF:45 plan, did that precede the book? What IF windows did you ultimately find work best for women? Should there be concerns about fasting for women? Like, what are your thoughts on that? Like 16:8 versus one meal a day? Oh, all the plans?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it gets so much more confusing with women because I would say postmenopausal women and men have a much easier time making fasting work for themselves. I think the beauty of women that are still in their reproductive years, that are still getting their menstrual cycle, there are a couple of extra steps you have to think about. To answer your initial question, I think an 18:6 is a good starting point for women. I think overall, obviously, each woman is her own individual. You have to look at a lot of different factors to determine what is the best way to proceed. Let's be clear, there are times when we shouldn't fast as women, and then there are times it's completely reasonable. What I don't like is when men try to tell women that fasting is unsafe. That actually makes me a little bit upset and cranky, I have to be honest with you because it's very reductionist.

I think we as a culture we want to boil everything down that there's this one size fits all. I would argue that an 18:6 is a good starting point. I'm not a huge fan of OMAD for women, largely because I feel as if most women can't get enough macronutrients in that feeding window. Now, I know there are men out there on, Twitter is a good example. There're a lot of men on Twitter that fast, and they'll say, "OMAD, I get 2000 calories in a meal." I just think to myself, there's just no way in heck that could ever happen for me. There's no way I could get 2000 calories into one meal. I wouldn't be able to move. I would probably vomit. I think I like OMAD if it's around a holiday or maybe you've overindulged the day before, but I think it can set women up in a cycle where they're just not going to get enough macronutrients, not enough protein, not enough healthy fats, and certainly not enough healthy carbohydrates.

I think that when people talk about OMAD for women, I always want to put an asterisk to say, let's clarify that. Is that something you can do as needed? Sure, it's probably okay. Do I occasionally do it? Yes. It is not something I do on a day-to-day basis. I think the big thing about this book in particular is that I want people to have a starting point like here's a reasonable starting point to navigate success with this as a strategy that is specific to where you are in your menstrual cycle that is specific to where you are lifestyle wise and that even includes this nebulous period of perimenopause that a lot of people, including myself, had never been aware of. No one had ever talked to me about it until I literally fell into it. I think that's really a good starting place for people to say, this is what we're going to work you towards.

Once you have success with that, then there's all these other options. It's almost like, and this is a terrible example, it's almost like you go to a buffet, and the buffet for fasting, you get lots of different options. As you're moving towards that buffet, you have a starting point. You need to be able to succeed with this basic 18:6 before you open up into a lot of more challenging fasts or varying your fast significantly. It's like I always say, we want to start with the basics. We want to ensure that we have great success with those before we start entering more advanced strategies.

Melanie Avalon: Funny that you started saying the thing about what frustrates you. I was like, I know what she's going to say. Also, I'm really glad that you clarified about defining one meal a day. Like, for example, I always say that I do one meal a day but I'm not eating that one meal a day for me is a minimum usually 4 hours. It's actually more like 20:4 and sometimes it's even longer. I think that's actually really important to clarify. Something I love you open up the book talking about the differences between men and women and I learned so much about how women are different biologically. Like, you pointed out that our brains are actually younger than men and you point out how we actually need more sleep because our brains are more complicated than men, which works for me, just in the differences between men and women.

When it comes to fasting and eating and just for listeners, again, I'm going to refer you to this book because it goes into the details of the actual plan and what to do and the recommendations and there is a path to follow. Definitely get the book because the path is not going to be all in today's conversation. But that said, how intuitive? Because you talk, for example, about how to eat according to your cycle or you just talked about right now about fasting, how it might change based on your age and where you are in your life cycle, how intuitive is that? Do we need a plan? Or like when it comes to food and exercise and fasting for your cycle, for example, do we need an actual plan on paper that we implement, or could we just be really intuitive? Like I'm craving these types of foods now and I want to fast like this now. Like how intuitive can we be versus needing a plan?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's a really great distinction. I feel like many women are not intuitive or they're not connected to their intuition and that's not a criticism. I think we've gotten to the point with our patient population that we've been telling people what to think, what to do for such a long period of time that women's intuition that we should lean into, we have largely gotten disconnected from it. I would love if every woman that I worked with would really lean into their intuition. I do find that there are people who don't trust their intuition. They're not ready to do that. This is a perfect example of why having something on paper can provide the reinforcement, the encouragement, the support that they may need because maybe they're not at a point where they feel they may not lean into what foods make them feel good. They may be on synthetic hormones that make it more challenging for them to acknowledge that there's a follicular cycle, there's an ovulatory cycle, there's a luteal phase in our menstrual cycle, or there could be in this, as I refer to effectually the nebulous period of perimenopause five to ten years prior to going through menopause.

I think on so many levels it has been more my experience working with females that they initially want the structure and accountability of a plan as opposed to just barreling forward and saying, "Okay, today I'm craving meat, so I'm going to have more meat, or I'm noticing I'm craving more starchy carbohydrates, I might be close to my menstrual cycle, so let me lean into that." I think it's a good starting point to say that having a plan available to people can be very reassuring and also the knowledge and recognition that on so many levels, having that information is really validating to say, "Hey, no one ever told me that I needed to look out for these things." Let me just give you a heads up because as an example the first two weeks from the day we start bleeding till right before ovulation, that's when estrogen predominates in our menstrual cycle.

That's the time that we can push the lever on a lot of things. We can do harder workouts; we can do longer fast once we've gotten the basics. It's a time when sleep, I don't want to say sleep isn't important, we may not need as much sleep, we might have more energy. Really leaning into the fact that this menstrual cycle or this infradian rhythm, this 28-day period of time when we are having this menstrual cycle, is really a time to just acknowledge that through different phases, we have to honor our bodies in different ways. I think that it's probably more the minority of women that don't feel like they need as much structure. It's been my experience, especially when trying a new strategy, especially with a lot of misinformation that's out there. I'm sure you would agree with me, there's a lot of misinformation, fear-mongering, et cetera, about women in fasting, really acknowledging our own unique needs and our own bio-individuality so that we can ensure that we're getting the best results, we're getting the best feedback from our bodies. Eventually we'll get to a point where we can lean into that intuition confidently as opposed to leaning into it skeptically.

Melanie Avalon: I agree. Even for myself, when I started intermittent fasting, I started with a regimented plan that I stuck to. When I first started, I mean, paleo, for example, I was following more of a regimen than I do now. And now it is "More intuitive." Eating for your cycle, because you dive deep into the book again, it's very laid out and you talk about the specific nutrients and the different foods to focus on for the different parts of your cycle. So, two-part question, one just for listeners who are not familiar. Could we have a little educational moment where you just briefly outline the four phases of the cycle and then two, finding the foods that work for the different phases? What is that based on? Is that in the clinical literature, is that based on working with your patients? I'm just curious where that knowledge comes from.

Cynthia Thurlow: First and foremost, there's not enough research on cycling women. I think this is something that I'm sure you have found to be the case as well. And, for me, after working with thousands of women so let me just back up. My whole background is in ER medicine and cardiology. Over the last six years, having the opportunity to use a lot of trial and error, but also leaning into looking to see what my peers, other healthcare professionals, MDs, NPs, nurses, et cetera, that are working with women and seeing what works successfully for them. It could be an end of a couple of thousand, but it hasn't necessarily been done in clinical research. There is good information about the infradian rhythm, there is good information about ways to honor where we are in our menstrual cycle, there is good information on what happens to our bodies as we go through our menstrual cycle.

The concept of lifestyle medicine, the concept of marrying, stress management, sleep quality, nutrition, exercise, etc., that is a newer kind of methodology, that's a newer perspective on how to honor our bodies as women. I do think research opportunities will be forthcoming. I think, unfortunately, there isn't enough research done on cycling women. I think there's been for many years, a fear of it's too complicated, there's too much to it. I mean, there are researchers out there. I can think of one in particular. She's a female Ph.D., she works with female athletes and she is not pro-fasting. I do respect the work that she's doing and we do acknowledge that during the menstrual cycle, a lot of her work is what I kind of leaned into looking at how do we support our bodies at different phases exercise-wise throughout our cycle. There's good research there in terms of exercise in women's physiology, but certainly not enough and not enough done on humans versus lab animals like you and I both know, and probably many of the listeners do as well because they listen to the high-quality podcasts that you have that you can't compare per se, lab animals, ovulatory cycles, lactation and pregnancy to humans.

That's where the waters get a little muddied. I always say anecdotal evidence is not inferior in the sense that it's not a randomized controlled trial, but it's a good starting point. To say this is information that we should be taking to, whether it's a research institution or a research facility. Saying we really think this is information that needs to be followed up on. Like, here's my hypothesis and let's see if we can create a research model around this that might be able to yield and validate the findings that many of us are experiencing. It's interesting. I recently had a great podcast with Megan Ramos, who works with Dr. Jason Fung, and she and I were both talking about the fact that it's upsetting that so many women are fearful to fast even in a small amount of time because of bad information that's out there.

I think that if we were in a position where we had really good research done on women throughout their lifetime, not just obese postmenopausal women, which there's plenty of research there, I think that would put some of these fears to rest. I do want to believe that they're well-meaning individuals that are out their fear-mongering. I do have moments where I just kind of shake my head and I think to myself if we look at the lack of metabolic flexibility, how incredibly unhealthy we are as Americans, we should be doing everything we can to find strategies to help men and women become healthier. And so, what's the harm in trying? That's kind of where I come from. I think the other piece of that is I've just watched people get sicker over the last 20 years. That to me is so disheartening as a nurse practitioner that clinically don't do a very good job with prevention.

If there's a strategy that women can utilize that can help them become healthier, and more metabolically flexible, I'm all for it. But I think that's a great question. It really speaks to the fact that we need to be demanding more, we as women need to be demanding more of the research community, asking them to not be fearful to utilize women at peak fertility years and even beyond for research purposes. Don't just use it on lab animals, which I know that can be helpful, it's a good starting point. There are plenty of clinicians like myself that have just seen such significant changes in people's health. Not only that, their biophysical markers and their sleep quality and so many things that are so important in terms of lifestyle medicine.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, just speaking to that with the rodent studies, and we might have talked about this last time you came on, but I think it's very valuable to have animal studies and you have to start somewhere. If you're studying something like longevity and rodents, that would be easier to study because you could see how things just affect longevity. It's a broader thing that's not affected by "Let me further clarify, I'm not clarifying myself here." Let's compare studying longevity and a rodent to like fertility. Longevity is more a broader thing you could see is the rodent living longer, but then when it comes to fertility, so like a rodent fertility cycle, they're reproducing all the time, and so they're much more sensitive to things that would throw that off. And then on top of that, fasting. this is the thing that gets me the most, is that when they test fasting in a rodent, it'll be like a normal fast for us, like 24-hour fast, that's the equivalent of days in a rodent. Basically, the majority of the literature, I believe, on fertility in rodents and fasting is not intermittent fasting. It's like the equivalent of extended fasting. I just think that's really important to point out, which actually, speaking of extended fasting, what do you qualify as extended fasting?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I was about to say what, in your vernacular, is extended fasting. I think when we're talking about 24 hours or longer, I know that there's a lot of interest in people doing three to five-day fast. And it was interesting. I was listening to Dr. Ted Naiman and Maria Emmerich having a conversation about this, and Ted, who's an engineer and also a physician, said there's this law of diminishing returns when people are already lean and they want to fast for a really long periods of time. I thought to myself that really makes sense. I think if someone is obese, metabolically unhealthy, I think longer fast can be a springboard into a consistent fasting regimen. I, per se, am not a huge fan of long fasts. I think it has something to do with the fact that in 2019, I wasn't able to eat for 13 days involuntarily because I was so sick.

Since that time, I haven't done anything more than 24- or 30-hour fast. I think it can be helpful for specific purposes. A lot of people talk about and I know you've had Valter Longo on stem cell activation when you're getting to that three to five-day period, wanting to kind of improve gut health and change the composition of the gut microbiome. I'm not a huge fan of people doing consistent long fasts and I do have women I always say they are the overachievers and I value that and I'm not being critical at all. The women who start right out of the gate and they're like, "I want to do a 48-hour fast, I want to do a 36-hour fast, I want to do a 24-hour fast. "I'm like, okay, let's ensure we can get through the basics first, and then as you have success, yes, opening that up for some people that are plateau-busting, it can be a great opportunity for people to do a 24-hour fast every week.

I think it really ultimately depends on where are you in your menstrual cycle, what are your goals, what are you hoping to achieve. I think the more metabolically flexible you are-- this is my personal, my N of a couple thousand. The more metabolically flexible you are, I think it becomes this law of diminishing returns in terms of what are you looking to obtain from doing longer fasts. We know that digestive rest, bumps in autophagy, growth hormone, etc., I mean, those are all wonderful things to want to focus on, but I think you have to be careful. Especially if someone's peak fertility years and I say 35 and under predominantly, and especially if you're very lean, I just think those longer fasts can set your body up for putting you into this feast-famine mindset. We know that the hypothalamus-pituitary is very sensitive to nutrient depletion.

I really think you have to be careful in that age range. I know we could springboard into a thousand different conversations from here. I'm not opposed to prolonged fasting, but I do think people have to be very clear about their goals. I think they have to be very transparent about where they are in their life cycle. Are you peak fertility years, perimenopause, menopause? Menopausal women can generally get away with as much as men. Our hormones are a little more stable. But being really honest and transparent about where you are, I think is really critically important.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really glad that you touched on the potential sensitivity of women to fasting. Working with all of your patients that you've worked with as far as, like, things that affect a woman's cycle, so fasting, calories, overexercising, undernutrition, maybe stress, lack of sleep, is there one that tends to cause problems more for women when it comes to cycle issues or being too, "Restrictive?" Or is it really an individual case-by-case basis?

Cynthia Thurlow: There're definitely factors that I think are bigger insults to the body than others and so stress and sleep, like how many women don't sleep well and they think it's no big deal? Well, what you get away with in your 20s and 30, you oftentimes can't in your 40s and 50s. A lot of that's just the changes that occur physiologically. I would say the people I get most concerned about are the over-exercisers who under nourish their bodies and then they don't have proper mechanisms to address sleep and they sure as heck don't manage their stress properly. I would say those are probably the four big things that I look at. Obviously, it's a case-by-case basis, but I think on so many levels we have primed our patients to think this way. We tell them calories in, calories out. We tell them you have to overexercise to deal with the surplus of calories you just took in.

We've been giving bad information out to our patients for a long period of time. Of course, in their minds it makes sense. I'm just going to do 2 hours of cardio to counteract the deluge of crap I ate when I went out last night. It's this concept of punishing our bodies, the self-flagellatory mindset that is so toxic. Like I would say it's that toxic mentality that we have unfortunately ingrained not only with our patient population but also in our culture. What's the newest box of crap that's out there or potion or powder that's somehow going to magically make everything work? We want fast results. We don't want anything that's going to take a long period of time. We've, unfortunately, and I say we as clinicians contributed to this. Melanie, I think that's such a great question and I think bio-individuality rules. You'll hear me use that term a lot in the book.

Ultimately, it's really dependent on who we are as individuals. I could also add into there like "How lean are you?" I have a lot of women who are very lean. Like their body fat is nearly nonexistent. They might also be on the precipice of amenorrhea where they're not even getting their menstrual cycles, or they could even be in their 30s and 40s and they're skipping cycles regularly. One thing I want to emphasize is that I want women to use their menstrual cycle as a barometer for how much stress they are putting themselves under, whether it's physiologic, physical, etc. Because if you are getting your menstrual cycle every month, great. If you start fasting or you're already not regularly getting your menstrual cycle and you don't know why and you add in fasting, that might be the tipping point for your body to say, time out, you're not taking care of me.

Therefore, I'm going to put the brakes on everything because I'm thinking that there's not enough sleep, there's not enough stress management, there's not enough nutrition coming into this body. I want to make sure that there's no way I have to support the potential pregnancy. I think that really adding in to that equation is learning and being honest and saying what's my menstrual cycle like? Because when a woman tells me she starts menstruating or she starts fasting and loses her menstrual cycle, that's like a danger sign. To me that's like we got to back up the bus. We need to look at everything you're doing. We need to work on making sure your body is properly nourished on every level. I don't want to sound woo-woo, but on so many levels it's not just the food we put in our mouth, it's like the toxicities in our environment, and are we being kind to ourselves?

I think on many levels people come to fasting, women in particular because they want to change their body composition. They want to lose weight and that becomes their very myopic view of that's health is looking at the number on the scale. I think that can be profoundly unhealthy. It's like, "Okay, let's make sure we get healthy to lose weight," that needs to be the mentality as opposed to intermittent fasting isn't working for me because I am not losing weight. It's like, wait, no. We have to kind of reframe these thoughts so that we can put ourselves in a healthier state of mind before attempting to do any of that.

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Yeah, that was one of the things I loved about your book so much, is just how comprehensive it is on the full picture of everything. It's not just the fasting, it's the mindset, it's the diet, the sleep, it's all the things. It's interesting that you were saying about how some of your patients are really lean and the factor that that might play because I was actually reading a study and it was looking at the effects on women's cycles in-- I'd have to find it. I think it was endurance athletes. What was really interesting was getting amenorrhea did not relate to the amount of exercise. It correlated instead to their body weight. If they were too low of weight, the level of exercise, it was a problem compared to women that had much more ample fat, they could exercise a lot more and it not affect the cycle.

I almost didn't want to mention that study, though, because then that makes it sound like it's a blanket statement, but when it's going to be individual. Yeah, I thought that was really interesting. Speaking of hormonal issues with women and I'd love to go into perimenopause and menopause and all of that, but just in general. You dive deep, deep, deep into all of the hormones, which made me so excited because I love learning. Like when I was reading the part of the book that was going over insulin, cortisol, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, DHEA and all the things, I was just loving it. I was like this is amazing, so comprehensive, I learned so much. Okay, hormonal issues. There are so many hormonal issues out there, PMS, PMDD, PCOS, I'm sure we'll go into perimenopause and things like that. Are hormonal issues inevitable? Do all women experience them? How common are they? With your patients, do you see that they necessarily do correlate to lifestyle? Or can some women be doing all the things and still experience hormonal issues?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's a great question, Melanie. I think in our increasingly kind of toxic world that we live in, when I say toxic, I'm talking about things we're exposed to in our environment, our personal care products, and our nutrition, we're bombarded by toxins that can influence our hormones, how they're balanced, adding in the volume of individuals that are on synthetic hormones. I mean, I'll be the first person to say I was put on synthetic hormones in early adulthood because I had amenorrheic cycles, probably because I had very mild PCOS, which is a whole separate conversation. I think being on oral contraceptives as an example didn't allow me to ever deal with what was really the issue for me as an individual. I think that it is a byproduct of our westernized lifestyle that most, if not all individuals and again, we've touched on a little bit about metabolic flexibility, that most, if not all of us are not as hormonally balanced as we should be.

Many people assume whatever symptoms they're experiencing, bad PMS, even more, significant PMDD or having luteal phase defects where they have this significant precipitous drop in progesterone during their luteal phase that begets the PMS, the PMDD, also can create some menstrual regularities, can create this estrogen dominance where people have very heavy cycles and weight gain and breast tenderness, etc. We're just talking about people still at their peak fertile years, so I do think it's a byproduct of the environment that we live in in this kind of traditional westernized society. Not to mention the fact that most people are not eating to nourish their bodies. Again, it's not because they don't want to. It's they've been conditioned that everything in the supermarket is healthy, everything that is in a box, a bag, or a can is nourishment. I know you and I would argue against that, but it's also the information that we get from the FDA, the USDA, the food guide pyramid is now kind of spawned into my plate.

It's the imbalanced macros where people are encouraged to eat heart healthy grains or they're encouraged to eat what I think is dessert for breakfast. These are further contributing to this hormonal dysregulation. We're like a hedonistic culture where we have accessibility to information 24/7. It's very different than when I was growing up. The TV went off at like 01:00 in the morning, and there was no cable TV when I was really young. Now we could be on our computers or iPad or iPhones or social media all the time. Our bodies are just inundated with artificial light and all of these factors disrupt this orchestration between all these hormones, which are governed by our brain and the endocrine system. That's kind of an overly simplistic way of saying I think most, if not all of us are navigating our 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and beyond with some degree of hormonal imbalances.

It may not be until we find a symptom that's particularly troubling, for a lot of women it's the weight gain piece. Like when you have what I call weight loss resistance when that happens, then people start digging, they're like, this is not acceptable, something must be off. They're told maybe they've got a thyroid problem or again synthetic hormones are offered, or surgical interventions. I mean that certainly was the case with me and perimenopause. I think on so many levels it doesn't have to be that way, but it would not be the norm for women who I work with. Again, I'm in a niche within my industry. It would not be the norm that women wouldn't be coming to me with specific problems, like sleep problems, you know waking up in the middle of the night. They've got really heavy periods, they have stubborn weight gain, they have energy issues, and those are all a sign of hormonal imbalances.

On every level that I can think of, I think our modern-day lifestyle is creating, "The perfect environment for these hormonal imbalances." I think it's more the norm that we are conditioned to believe whether it's the limiting belief of "Oh, this is just the way things are because I'm X age, whether it's 35, 40, 45, 50 or beyond, or this is just the way things are because now I'm a parent, or this is just the way things are because I have a very demanding job and a travel schedule. Don't even mention the fact we're all in year two of a global pandemic. And so we're in unprecedented times. I do think our lifestyle is a reflection of the fact that we are so far off base as a culture in terms of really honoring the way that our bodies are designed to thrive and not just survive.

That is a huge distinction for me. I feel like on every level I've been able to see it from being a clinician in a broken medical system to being a clinician that's an entrepreneur and seeing things from a different angle. In many ways, we have created this environment that our patients are living in, and they're not thriving in, most of them are not they're feeling stuck. It's an unfortunate situation, but I think as more of us become educated and obviously, you have such a great platform for this as well, Melanie, being able to help educate people about all the things in their environment and things that we can be doing to making ourselves healthier. We're starting to slowly kind of turn the corner on this. I think in years to come, women are going to be better educated about the changes that are going to occur and be able to do more to support themselves.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, the nuance of that answer that I love is that it's both, in a way, inevitable. Like you just said, our environment is so toxic. I mean, even like, we're born into this because we know now that the stress and the lifestyles of our mom and even prior generations carries through to future generations. On the one hand, it's like we're in this inevitable soup of toxicity, but at the same time, there's great agency, and we're not destined to that like, we can make changes. So, I love that so much. One of my favorite things about your book that I'm sure listeners will love, love, love, is that in the book, Cynthia goes through all of these different hormones, how they affect the body, and then she actually talks about how fasting affects those hormones, which was just so incredible. A question about fasting and affecting hormonal issues, because there are so many, like I said, so many different things that women experience, but I think there are two that I'd love to touch on, two things that I think a lot of women experience.

One of them, it's generally accepted that intermittent fasting helps it and the other, it's generally accepted that intermittent fasting might hurt it. I'd love to hear your thoughts on both of those. One would be PCOS and the other would be thyroid issues. I'm just using that as an example for those issues, for example, what are your thoughts on fasting and those?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, great question. PCOS is something that I unknowingly had, even though I'm a thin phenotype, so I'm a thin woman probably contributed to why I struggled with infertility getting pregnant with my children. I especially feel this in my heart. The basis of PCOS or polycystic ovarian syndrome is the fact that most women are insulin resistant or have some degree of insulin resistance. We know that changing our diet, not only changing our diet, going to a more nutrient-dense, whole-food diet, focusing on animal-based protein and non-starchy vegetables and healthy fats along with periods of eating less often, can be hugely instrumental in rebalancing insulin. It's just one. The more common phenotype with PCOS is to have someone who's obese or someone who's overweight. I've had such incredible success working with women who were at this unique situation and my heart goes out to them because I know what that was like, that impacted my fertility.

That's really how it manifested and why I was on oral contraceptives for 1000 years, because it was, "Fixing the problem." Not really, was putting a Band-Aid on it. I do feel that in particular when you're looking at PCOS, where typically you've got insulin resistance, you generally-- a lot of people, your androgen levels, your testosterone levels are higher than normal. I do see some resolution, especially with weight loss, that you are. Let me back up a little bit, when we're looking at adipose tissue, which is in and of itself its own organ in the body, it's so sophisticated, it's not just fat, it has so much signaling that goes on in inflammatory markers. We know that many women when they lose weight, they're priming this estrogen pump. What ends up happening with PCOS oftentimes is you have this aromatization. You have all this testosterone that is going from being testosterone aromatized into estrogen and you can get this relative estrogen dominance.

With weight loss, you are getting this net resultant lowered levels of estradiol, the predominant form of estrogen in our bodies prior to going through menopause. I think that it is critically important when someone has PCOS to consider looking very closely at nutrition, looking very closely at weight reduction. One of the ways you can do that is by intermittent fasting. It doesn't have to be done excessively. You could even just start with 12 and 10 or 12 and 14, 12 hours fast with a 12-hour eating window just as a starter, just kind of meandering to that. Now, coincidentally I also have an underactive thyroid, which I think is a byproduct of the age and stage of life that I'm in. It's much more common as women are navigating perimenopause five to ten years to see episodes of underactive thyroid. The predominant reason why women will develop hypothyroidism in any age group is related to an autoimmune issue called Hashimoto's thyroiditis.

In fact, it's very few people, it's like one to 2% of people with hypothyroidism don't have Hashimoto's, even if you've had negative antibodies like me. I was about 44, that's when I was diagnosed. People ask me all the time; do you think that fasting-- Do you think that's what drove the hypothyroidism? I always say no, because autoimmune issues are almost always driven by gut health issues and I've had two other autoimmune issues. Once you have one, you just are more prone to others, which is unfortunate, but that's even based on research. I think that the average person who has an underactive thyroid or an overactive thyroid like Graves' disease, you can successfully navigate fasting. It always goes back to those pillars that we've talked about earlier, stress management, sleep quality, nutrition, really looking not overexercising, because you can have hypothyroidism and still exercise, still get high-quality sleep, still manage your stress properly and you can do beautifully.

If you have hypothyroidism and you get less than 6 hours a night of sleep and your stress is out of control and you're the CrossFit or Orangetheory bunny and you're doing that five days a week and there are plenty of women doing it and you over restrict your macros then you are setting yourself up for tanking or thyroid. Tanking obviously is not a clinical term, but you're not going to do your thyroid any favors. I really want women to understand that the endocrine system in the body really is this complex interaction between our body's perception of stressors, sleep, stress, management, nutrition, exercise, and our response to it. You can successfully navigate fasting with hypothyroidism or thyroid disorders where you could also make it harder on your body. The other thing to touch on is that there's a lot of misinformation about you need so much carbohydrate in order to go from inactive to active thyroid hormone.

I really don't necessarily believe that it has to be that you have to have so much carbohydrate in order to have this proper conversion. I think it's more a reflection of your degree of metabolic flexibility, so let me be clear about this. When you are obese or overweight, you're not as metabolically flexible. The choice of carbohydrates for you, it's going to be very focused on portion and the quality, even more so than for anyone else. It's not to suggest that you can't be lower carb or even ketogenic and also fast and also do all these other things, but a lot of its bio-individual. You also have to be very very attuned to how flexible is your body. Because what I might be able to get away with as a middle-aged woman might be very different than someone else at the same age stage who maybe hasn't taken as good care of themselves.

It's really getting very honest with yourself about what's the lifestyle pieces, how well are you taking care of yourself before you add in another stressor. We have to really define intermittent fasting as a hormetic stress. The beneficial stress in the right amount at the right time can be beautiful for honoring our bodies. If it's not the right time, if it's too much stress, if our body perceives that it's under threat, it is not going to do well with that type of stress. Really being very clear, but I do think both PCOS and thyroid issues can do beautifully with fasting, but you have to look at all those other pieces of the puzzle as well.

Melanie Avalon: It is really interesting that at least when I would review the clinical literature on fasting and women that there were a lot of studies on PCOS and women, which I always thought was really interesting and they're pretty much favorable for it. I have some more questions about the hormones. Since you did touch on the macros just now and the carb intake and all of that, what are your thoughts on a low-carb diet? In your IF:45 plan which includes three phases, like the induction phase that you have, what is the role of carbs and low carbs?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's a good question. I do think so if we look statistically, I think it's a 2018 study from UNC. At that time, this is pre-pandemic, it was 88.2% of Americans are not metabolically healthy. When people come to IF:45, the first thing I say is, listen, if the average American is consuming 200 to 300 g of carbs and that's conservatively per day, if we really want to get our bodies primed to be able to fast, there are a couple of things we need to do, and one of them is reducing our carbohydrate intake and really focusing on whole carbohydrates. And that means the unprocessed varieties. I'm not anti-carb, I do eat carbohydrates, I want to be really clear about that, but in that induction phase, it's really to get people ready so that when they start fasting, they're going to have better success.

And so I'm not anti-carb. I do think low carbohydrate diets can be very helpful for women, especially if they're wanting to change body composition, wanting to lose weight. For a lot of people, unfortunately, they've had the complete opposite. For most of their adult life they've sat down with a big plate of pasta, they've had bread with every meal, they've had rice or grains with every meal, or they've had unfettered access to tropical fruit. It's just an example and it's never a judgment. I'm just being observational and I find that women that are able to limit or moderate their carbohydrates and really focus on animal-based protein and healthy fats are going to have much more satiety. They're going to be much more satiated. They are going to be much more successful by readjusting those macros. For a lot of people that's why we have a whole week of induction because it can be very, very challenging.

There are a lot of people that are really emotional eaters. Again, not a criticism, just an observation. I think on many levels it gets people really ready to understand like we are going to learn how to fuel our bodies in a way that we are going to feel full, satisfied, and be able to step away from the table as opposed to feeling like we have to constantly snack. Because I'm sure you see this with the women that you interact with as well, that we've been conditioned that we need to have three meals a day and snacks and we have to, like, rip the Band-Aid off and start with the basics. So, I get very granular like these are the things we need to do. We have to limit our carbs. We need to stop snacking. I want you to adjust your macros because I want people to have a lifelong strategy that they can embrace as opposed to this. Unfortunately, it's huge here in the United States. The latest, greatest thing that's going to help them lose weight really fast and they're not going to be able to sustain their results because yo-yo dieting as you and I both know is detrimental metabolically to our bodies.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I think it is so detrimental. It reminds me of Joel Greene's work. I know you interviewed him as well and his book is like mind-blown moment after mind-blown moment, but he talks about the actual-- and I'll put a link in the show notes to the two-part episode that I did with him. After reading his book, I finally understood why yo-yo dieting makes it harder and harder to lose weight. It basically has to do with how it affects something called the extracellular matrix surrounding fat cells, and they become stiffer the more that you lose and regain and lose and regain and it's just really fascinating.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think when I read his book, Melanie, I literally, like, my chin was on the table, and I remember saying to you, now I'm sure everyone that listens to you knows that you are like a copious researcher. I think I told you, I think I went through 20 pages of a legal notepad taking notes, and my husband was like, what are you doing? I said, "This man has written this book and it's completely blowing my mind." Like, it's so different than anything I've heard anywhere else. Yeah, he's just exceptional and I love that there are people out there that I would call disruptors who are not embracing this mindset of cognitive dissonance and are willing to think outside the box because that's really what we want people to do is really find something that works for you to keep you as healthy as possible.

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. He's the only time that I emailed ahead of time, and I said, can we record for 4 hours so that I can make it a two-part episode? He was so kind and agreed, and I think we had, like, technical difficulties at the beginning, so I think it was like a five-hour experience. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. Going back to the hormones, there were some that I want to touch on specifically. Cortisol is a big one, and I think cortisol is one of the ones-- I think cortisol and Insulin are probably the two that well-- there might be more, but maybe the two that I see the most as far as people being really aware of them and thinking, even if they haven't tested thinking in their head, I have high insulin or I have high cortisol.

One thing I love is when you talk about cortisol, you actually start by talking about the benefits of cortisol, and you kind of dismantle the idea out there that cortisol is just a bad hormone. So, could you talk a little bit about cortisol, why it actually is beneficial, but then the problems when it goes awry, specifically how it can encourage visceral fat storage and things like that, so cortisol?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, cortisol, I feel like cortisol is the bully on the block, meaning it's gotten such bad press, it needs a good PR group to come in and sweep in and help it out. I think when we think about cortisol, cortisol is designed to be an emergency backup system in the body. We talk about the sympathetic nervous system, which is part of the autonomic nervous system, and just acknowledging that cortisol's role predominantly is to be part of that fight or flight. You're being chased by a saber-toothed tiger. It makes you be able to focus. It shuts down digestion. You can't stop to poop. You aren't going to stop to have sex. Your body is being fueled with the energy to get away from this threat. The common misunderstanding about cortisol, though, is that in our over-harried, overstressed lives, very westernized lives, we're constantly in this hedonistic culture where we're just inundated by information 24/7.

Our bodies can no longer differentiate between acute stress on being chased by a rabid animal versus chronic stress. That's the first tipping point that is problematic about cortisol. Cortisol does a lot of things. It frees up glucose so that we can be fueled. When I tell people when they're dealing with chronic stress, the things that will show up for them, they're not going to sleep as well. Because think about it physiologically. If you're fleeing danger, your body is not going to allow you to fall asleep properly. You're not going to digest your food. You can't properly detoxify. You're not going to poop. You're going to deal with that as well. That's a whole separate conversation that we could have because the whole constipation thing is fascinating. We think about the fact that chronic stress is going to impact the reproductive system because our bodies are going to perceive that we're under this surveillance of threat.

I also think about the fact that as an example, people talk about the cortisol belly. Why do I have abdominal fat? I just remind them that we have 40 times more receptors in the abdomen for cortisol. If you're really chronically stressed and chronically dealing with high cortisol levels, at least initially, you may see some abdominal issues. You may be more prone to leaky gut. You may be more prone to sleep disturbances like I talked about. You may really struggle with infertility. The initial phase with cortisol is heightened, so it becomes elevated and then over time, if we're chronically debilitated by stress, we will have the opposite. Our body is trying and trying and trying to keep up, and then over time, we'll have lower cortisol levels, which can show up as fatigue. Like, you have no energy and you develop gastrointestinal problems, you develop a leaky gut. You're prone to developing opportunistic infections in the gut.

You may deal with digestive problems beyond that, again, reproductive issues. You can have brain fog, and there's this downstream effect because what people don't realize is that cortisol impacts estrogen and testosterone, it impacts DHEA, all these sex hormones that are designed to kind of reflect and manifest not only an outward appearance but our menstrual cycle, our libido, etc., can all take a massive hit. Cortisol is beneficial, but cortisol can also be a sign when our body is under constant stress. It's important to interject in here that if you are someone who's not sleeping well, who's chronically overstressed, we don't want to add more stressors. This is where fasting can be beneficial versus detrimental. If you're someone that is going through a divorce, has had a significant life stressor, you've lost a job, you've been in the hospital, this is a good time to indicate that your body is still recovering from this significant stressor.

Right now, let's be honest, we have macro stressors and micro stressors. There's a lot going on in the world. You better believe in 2019, when I was in the hospital for 13 days, I didn't fast for months because my body was just wrecked from being so sick. Cortisol, I think, Teri Cochrane calls it the dirty cupcake, but it's really kind of emphasizing for people that when your cortisol is properly balanced, you're going to be able to sleep and manage your stress. Your blood sugar is going to be better controlled. That's one thing I forgot to mention. If you're chronically stressed, you're going to have blood sugar dysregulation, which can manifest as insulin resistance. This is where we get this tie-in with insulin. It's really all about mastering these key hormones so that we can put ourselves in an advantageous position.

I talk quite a bit in the book about the things that you need to do to balance the body. Bring yourself back into the autonomic nervous system, where you're not so focused on the sympathetic, but you're focused on this rest and repose side. That's one of the key aspects of helping to properly balance cortisol, is to ensure that your body doesn't think you're running a marathon every day and that you're not being chased by a saber-toothed tiger. Let me just lastly interject that stress can show up in weird ways. I know you had David Perlmutter on and in his last book, he talked about how when we're really stressed, we override the prefrontal cortex and we can't make executive decisions. You're not going to sit down and do calculus; you're probably only going to manage being able to get out the door because you just can't sit down and do advanced level thinking because your body is just flooded with cortisol and the amygdala overrides that prefrontal cortex. You're not able to make really good decisions. It's when people make impulsive decisions that's when people do things that are, I hate to say this word stupid sometimes because they aren't able to really think through their decision-making processes. Certainly, the last couple of years have shown us that there's a lot of that going on.

Melanie Avalon: Question about cortisol because it is something that women can test or they can do like a urine test. How beneficial do you think that is actually testing cortisol? Or should women just assume that their cortisol is high? So, when it comes to actually testing.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, I love to test it's like one of my favorite things to talk about. I always say test, don't guess. That is my standard mantra. You can test cortisol levels with a couple of different substances. You can do it with saliva, you can do it with urine, you can do it with blood. I like a combination of all of the above. I think serum is helpful, it just gives you that snapshot. So, a serum is blood. Immediately at that point in time when your blood is drawn that's exactly what your levels are. I do like the DUTCH test, which is a dried urine and saliva testing, depending on which kit you get. That can be hugely beneficial because it can plot out your circadian rhythm. Cortisol follows a rhythm in the body kind of like the infrared rhythm, but it follows-- melatonin suppression is when cortisol is highest. We would expect cortisol to be highest in the morning.

It ebbs and flows throughout the day and is lowest at night, which tells our body to go to bed. The DUTCH is really helpful because it will plot it out throughout the day and it gives you controls like high and low and so you can see for yourself how is your body metabolizing cortisol? Does your body not make enough cortisone, which is the inactive form of cortisol to convert to cortisol? Do you not have enough circulating cortisol? Do you have too much-circulating cortisol? It maps out your sex hormones, your melatonin, all of these things are interrelated and so it can be hugely beneficial. I'm an enormous fan of the DUTCH in particular because it gives us a very unique way of looking at our hormones. The caveat for anyone that's listening is you have to work with someone who's looked at hundreds of them.

I say this with love, but there are a lot of people who end up becoming either they're in our groups or they're working with me one on one. They've had a well-meaning clinician order these tests, they are not inexpensive and then it's not properly interpreted. The caveat I would say is if you're going to do the testing, make sure the person you're working with has looked at hundreds of them. The DUTCH is a complicated test. I actually took a whole class to be able to interpret it. I have a binder that's gosh it's probably six inches thick. I'm not exaggerating. It took probably looking at 100 of them to feel comfortable/confident to be able to use that information. Because in the functional medicine, integrative medicine world, there're a lot of great tests that are available, but they're only as valuable as the person that knows how to interpret them. That's an important distinction that I think, certainly your listeners, they want to just make sure that whoever they're working with, it's someone that's worked with a lot of these so that they can provide the best advice.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really glad that you touched on that because I've done a cortisol DUTCH test once and I remember getting the results because I'm a self-researcher and I like to try to interpret things. I just remember looking at this and thinking how important it was to work with somebody knowledgeable who actually could interpret it. Hearing what you just said about all of the research and the binder and all the things that you definitely need to be working with a practitioner on that. The other hormones-- since you love testing, not guessing, out of all the hormones and all the things that can be tested with that, what can you test? Do you do insulin tests? What about estrogen levels? I know estrogen dominance is a problem today. Can that be tested?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Are you asking specifically to the DUTCH or just in general?

Melanie Avalon: Just in general, with women, do you do a full hormonal panel? When you do, what does that cover? Like, what should women be testing?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I think at a minimum, so we know progesterone as one example is better tested with blood as opposed to the DUTCH. Because when you do the DUTCH as an example, it's just a test between days 19 through 22 in your cycles to during your luteal phase, I do think testing for-- there're three predominant forms of estrogen. There's estriol, estrone, and estradiol. Estradiol is the predominant form of estrogen prior to going through menopause. Estrone is the predominant weaker form of estrogen that most women produce in fat tissue in menopause, kind of a bummer because that's when women really don't want to be adding to their fat stores. I think it's important to do a free and total testosterone, so really looking at that is very helpful. On the other side of that, I like to look at DHEA. I definitely like to look at fasting insulin.

I know that a lot of well-meaning healthcare professionals will do like a complete blood count. They'll do a CMP, which is a comprehensive metabolic panel, which just looks at fasting glucose. We know that your fasting insulin can dysregulate, sometimes five to ten years, way before the glucose and hemoglobin A1c start becoming abnormal. Fasting insulin is, for me, the biomarker that I will look at. You can look at fasting leptin, which is oftentimes absolutely fascinating, although you'll oftentimes see abnormal fasting insulin as well as fasting leptin. This is when people say this is hedonistic, they can't stop eating. There's all this miscommunication between their brains and their stomach. Other things that I like to think about, I mentioned progesterone. I do like to look at a full thyroid panel, so TSH, free and total T3 and T4, reverse T3, looking at antibodies, I'm a huge fan of looking at iron panels, so total iron, TIBC, percent sat, ferritin, which is oftentimes a better marker of iron storage.

I do like to look at inflammatory markers, so a high-sensitivity CRP, I do like to look at homocysteine. This is just like a baseline. I'll look at like an RBC or red blood cell, magnesium, and zinc, iodine, folate, B12. That's a starting point. Obviously, each person is an individual, but I think it's a good place to start from so that you have a good sense of what's going on with your body. Now, obviously, a DUTCH is not covered by insurance, but I think doing those serum blood markers and urinary iodine can be very, very helpful.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Again, listeners, there is a full transcript in the show notes, so have no fear. If you get Cynthia's book, you'll have all the resources. Another hormone I'd love to briefly ask you about, you talk about oxytocin in the book. All of the things that can benefit that hormone, I did not realize. Well, first of all, you talk about oxytocin. Is oxytocin on or off or is it more like a dimmer switch? Also, you talk about how it lasts three to five minutes. Do we need to be doing oxytocin-stimulating things all the time? And what is the role of oxytocin?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, so it's this amazing hormone that is secreted by the hypothalamus-pituitary gland. Think about it like when a woman is bonding with her baby, if she's breastfeeding her baby, it can be secreted by the uterus and the placenta, and so it can create this amazing bonding experience. It's why like hugging your pets, I'm laughing because one of my dogs is walking over to get his back scratched right now. It's this amazing hormone that when we're tapped into it and again you can't be in the super overly stressed environment 24/7 and think that you're going to get any good feelings from oxytocin. You get it from sexual intimacy, you can get it from hugs with your loved ones, and you can get it from rubbing your dog. It also contributes to staying full and having satiety. I remind people there's more to this hormone.

We kind of think of it as the mother hormone. It's the hormone that kind of begets all other hormones, how critically important it is to nourish it. And you're right, it doesn't last. That's why you need those. I love that I have dogs because now I have teenagers who are much less interested in being snuggly with their mom like they were when they were younger. Getting those little hits of oxytocin throughout the day can be super helpful, but it doesn't necessarily have to involve you being around other people. I mean, just even laughing, just having levity like watching something that makes you happy, doing something that brings you joy. I always get questions like; do I have to be around other people? No, not necessarily. If you love to garden, if you love to get out in nature, if getting on a bicycle or exercising brings you joy, I mean, there're other ways that we can stimulate this hormone.

It's really important to understand that it is critically important for staying full. Like, we have receptors all placed in our body, in our brain, in our uterus, our placenta, our ovaries. Our body is constantly taking information from the outside and kind of deciding, like, are we nourishing our bodies or are we depleting our bodies? This is a poorly understood, poorly appreciated hormone, but one that I think is so, so important.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. We talk all the time on this show about the beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and especially how it can affect your blood sugar levels. How much do we talk about this? How diet affects them, how exercise affects them, how fasting affects them? But how do you actually know what your blood sugar levels are? Besides when you go to the doctor and get a snapshot of that one moment in time, or give yourself a finger prick, which again, is a snapshot of that one moment in time. What if you could know what your blood sugar was all the time? That would be revolutionary insight that could really help you meet your health and wellness goals. Guess what? You can do that now. I'm going to tell you how to save $30 off while doing it. We are obsessed with a company called NutriSense. They provide access to and interpretations of the data from the biosensors known as Continuous Glucose Monitors, aka CGMs.

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Yeah, I love you talk about the study in the book about, I think it was overweight men looking at delicious food and oxytocin reduced their appetite or their cravings, which is so cool. Again, listeners, all of the hormones are in the book. So some more fasting-related questions. I love to touch on a few of the things that I feel like at least on the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, we don't really talk about that much, or it's not something of a focus of ours that you do touch on because I think listeners would love to hear about it. As far as things, okay, I just laugh about this question because it's such a question on the other podcast. As far as what breaks a fast, what are your thoughts on what breaks a fast and the idea of clean fasting? In particular, I'd love to hear your thoughts on medicinal mushrooms because that's not something that I really play around with and Gin doesn't either. So, I'd love to hear about those. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think all of us are very aligned about the concept of clean fasting. I do like people to understand why when you're learning the basics it's important to distinguish between what will or will not break your fast. In my mind, and there are a lot of, again, well-meaning fit pros out there, and they'll say, "Oh, if it's under 50 calories, it doesn't count. I'm like, okay, well, the grapes that you just told someone to eat are definitely going to break their fast. I think about how certain supplements can break your fast, like branched-chain amino acids, flavored electrolytes. I think about the fact that-- this is just my personal feeling, we know that dairy products are insulinemic, and so when people think it's no big deal to put heavy cream in their coffee, and they're being very purposeful, like, what is your purpose of fasting?

Like, if you're trying to change body composition or lose weight, then those little things can add up. One of the funny things that my interview with Vinnie Tortorich on the podcast, and he was saying, when people tell you that they're putting healthy fats into their diet, always clarify. I always do that now, but what might be cream in my coffee might be half cream, half coffee, so those things can certainly add up fast. But I think about bone broth. I think about distinguishing between proteins we know will break a fast, being really clear about the fact that anything that is going to stimulate an insulin response and I know I was laughing a couple of days ago. I was watching something on YouTube and the concept of cephalic phase insulin response, which I know you all talk about as well. There were people that were fighting like they were splitting hairs over what would do that.

I thought it might be helpful just to say when we talk about that, it's the sight, smell, or taste of food that will secrete some insulin. We know it increases salivation, we know that it increases bile secretion, all because your body thinks food is coming, it increases gastric juices, it increases gut motility, and that alone can last eight to ten minutes. When people think it's no big deal to smell like grandma's apple pie, but I don't want anyone getting paranoid feeling like they can't enjoy being in a fasted state and smelling food. Just to understand, our bodies are very attuned to the environments we're in. When it comes to breaking your fast, I tend to be very much aligned with you and Jen. It's bitter teas, bitter being bitter, not meant to be sweet, plain coffee, filtered water, I think are absolutely fine, unfavored electrolytes are absolutely fine. The things that will break a fast are the things that are construed as food. Whether it's chewing gum, whether it is sucking on a mint, I've had people that get really upset. They don't like their keto breath and so they're always frustrated. I'm like, "Well, I guess you could chew on some fennel, but technically your body is going to think food is coming." I think it's important for people to understand there are things that can kind of amplify fast, things that can be beneficial, and I dove deep into the research on this. Things like-- think about Chaga or Reishi mushrooms. This is something that Siim Land talks quite a bit about as well. He's super well versed in the literature. I'm not sure if interviewed him on the podcast before.

Sulforaphanes like broccoli sprouts, just to potentiate autophagy, which is that waste and recycling process in the body. Turmeric and ginger, things that are certainly not sweet, but based on research can potentiate autophagy. There are also other things that can potentiate those things as well. I'm hoping I answered your question because I know that the concept of a clean fast is something that not necessarily everyone embraces. I know we both have had individuals on our podcast who feel differently. Like, you can have fiber and you can have all the fat you want. Yes, maybe fat may not be processed differently in the body, but I do like people to learn the basics so that they can have success. If you then go on and you're going to do a bone broth fast, but you're doing a different type of fasting, then that's a differentiator but when people are learning how to fast, I want them to learn how to do it clean so that they'll get the best results.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, exactly. One thing I love is you dive deep into coffee and the cost-benefit of coffee, especially because I think with coffee, it can be a really great aid for fasting, encourage fat burning and energy and reduce cravings, but then on the flipside, I think probably for some women that they might get too much of a cortisol response to it. What do you find with all the women that you've worked with as far as coffee goes? Do some women, it's just they can't do coffee because of the cortisol? Is tea a better option? What are your thoughts on coffee?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, great question. When I think about coffee, there're two things. First, exposure to mycotoxin so if anyone's listening and the concept of mold, so making sure you use a clean brand, I think is the first thing. If someone suspects that they're either getting an exaggerated response, they feel jittery, they don't feel good, I encourage them to use a glucometer, like check your blood sugar before and check your blood sugar after because that can be very insightful. Sometimes people don't realize that their body gets stressed when they consume this coffee product. Maybe it's the caffeine. It may not even be the coffee per se, maybe it's the mycotoxin. Really getting granular if they really love coffee. Trying to figure out is it that brand of coffee, is it you're sensitive to caffeine. What can we do to try to honor your desire to have the therapeutic benefits from the polyphenols and other things?

Can you try green tea? What I do find for a lot of women is it's very insightful when they start using the glucometers to be able to determine what's their net impact. If their blood sugar goes from 70 to 100, it's like, okay, well, this might be something that's stressing your body. This might be unique to you. This could be a temporary blip. This might be that you've got too much stress going on and this is another stress or your body is just saying time out. Or maybe you need to consume a better-quality brand coffee, that is tested for mycotoxins. I know you probably have talked about this on your podcast quite a bit. I'm surprised at how many people have a genetic susceptibility, I'm one of them, that I'm very sensitive to mold exposure, whether it's in my environment or in my food.

Sometimes you have to take those extra steps. Either find a manufacturer that screens for mold or perhaps you need to try something else like green tea or black tea, a bitter tea that might work better for you, or take a break entirely to see how your N of 1. I always say the N of 1 is important, but it may be that for right now that's not the right substance for you to consume. That might be hugely impactful.

Melanie Avalon: So, another question, just because like I said, you talk about things that I don't personally really talk about on the other show and I think it's so important. So, the hormone DHEA, I remember forever ago before I was really into all of this stuff, I was reading about DHEA and I was like, "Oh, I'm going to supplement with DHEA. And then that did not go well. Since then I supplemented with something called 7-keto-DHEA. I was wondering what your thoughts are on DHEA.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I always like to look at a DUTCH before I render an opinion because the lifestyle piece always plays a role if DHEA is suppressed. Just to give an overview, like DHEA is another very important hormone downstream that effect is DHEA will cleave off and create testosterone and androgen metabolites. It's also supposed to work in conjunction with cortisol. They're just kind of balance one another out. If you have someone that is really depleted, your body will preferentially fuel production of cortisol over DHEA. It's the vitality hormone, it's a hormone that's important for energy. Obviously, if your DHEA is low, your libido may have gone poof. And so, I think supplementation is reasonable. 7-keto-DHEA I have used, the thought process is it's less likely to be aromatized into estrogen. That can be a huge problem with DHEA.

You don't know how the body is going to use it. It going to aromatize estrogen or is your body going to use it to kind of fuel those testosterone pathways? I think it's highly bio-individual. I like to do the DUTCH specifically to look at that. If testosterone levels are low, sometimes I want to look at serum testing to corroborate that. I do think it can be helpful, and I think for a lot of people, especially as they're getting closer to like middle age, like 40-ish and above, more often than not, we will supplement with some DHEA. Although what's interesting to me is that I see clinicians doing really high doses of DHEA, and I don't think I've seen enough research to suggest that they should be supplementing with like, 100 mg of DHA. I generally start pretty low because, for some people, it's very stimulating.

I take DHEA as does my husband and oftentimes it can be helpful for kind of priming the pumps, like, as our bodies are making less of these hormones as we're getting closer to menopause and andropause it can beneficial to help replete them. The foundational work always needs to be on the sleep, the stress, the not overexercising, etc. One thing that I think is really important for people to understand is that supplements are great. Supplements can be so beneficial on so many levels. Obviously, I talk about them in the book, but the real foundational approaches to health or what we have to do first before we start adding in supplements, because I think it's so easy to say, "Oh, I don't want to work on the sleep piece. I'm just going to take in supplements to help my sleep". I'm like, "You got to work on the sleep first and start adding supplements," as just one example. I'm sure, Melanie, you see quite a bit of that as well.

Melanie Avalon: That was something I highlighted in your book where you were saying "Starting intermittent fasting. I think you said that if your sleep is not in line or your stress, that's got to be dealt with first."

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, because I cannot tell you how many women and I don't fault them for this because I think this is human nature. They want to lose weight; they want to fast. I'm like, okay, let's back up the bus. We got to make sure we've got your sleep dialed in, because if your sleep and stress are out of control, your body is going to perceive we're heaping on another layer of stress, it's not going to be as amenable. Again, much like the menstrual cycle, I use sleep as a barometer for how well people are managing and mitigating their health, and what's their hormone balance like and I'm oversimplifying, of course there's far more to it than that. I know when my sleep is bad. I'm obsessed with my Oura Ring. Every day I look at my REM sleep and my deep sleep, and I tell my husband, like, I'll be darned. I don't want to be tethered to this thing, but I love it because I get up in the morning and the days I feel great, my data always correlates. It always-- The same thing if I have a crappy night of sleep, it's like my REM and my deep sleep are down. I'm like, "Ah, it's just validation."

Melanie Avalon: I love the Oura Ring and I talked about this on the other show and on my Instagram, but I recently had COVID and the effects it had on my Oura Ring because I didn't feel that bad, so I'm not sure that I would have thought necessarily it was COVID. My Oura Ring was like you're dying. Not really, but it gave me-- the scores were so fascinating and this is really interesting. Since then, I've been taking some medications for COVID and I think they've been affecting my sleep. But interestingly, I don't feel like I'm sleeping as well, but my Oura Ring has actually said that my sleep has been fine and I haven't been tired during the day. I think there's just something changing, this is completely N of 1 and probably not helpful for anybody, but it's like my experience of my sleep at night has been changing, and I don't really know what that means. Oh, another tangent. You talk about melatonin in the book, so have you interviewed John Lieurance?

Cynthia Thurlow: He is coming on next month. I cannot wait.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so for listeners, he is the melatonin guy, and he's all about high-dose melatonin. This is so funny Cynthia, so I think two nights ago so I've been taking melatonin in part for COVID. It's the same brand as my digestive enzymes. I currently get Pure Encapsulations. The actual pills look the exact same. The bottle looks almost the exact same. I realized last night when I was pulling out my digestive enzymes, that I had thought the night before my melatonin bottle was my digestive enzyme bottle. I take a lot of digestive enzymes. So, I counted the pills out, I think I took like 15 melatonins the prior night.

Cynthia Thurlow: What was the amount that you took?

Melanie Avalon: Maybe 20, 3 mg. So, it probably ended up being somewhere, it might have been like 60 mg of melatonin.

Cynthia Thurlow: You know what's funny is that I've completely nerded out on sleep and melatonin in the last, like two months. I'm so glad you're asking me about this because now it's like bleeding into my work like every group person I'm talking about melatonin all the time. Probably a month ago, I decided I was going to step up my sleep game. I'm like you, I'm very conscientious about what I take when I take it. I started with the consent of my integrative medicine doc and started doing high-dose melatonin. His feeling was, let's do this to kind of replenish because after the age of 40, we don't make as much. I was doing 18 mg every night and it was like I went from having good sleep to great sleep. Like every night my REM and deep sleep were doubled. I mean, it was unbelievable. I'm doing all the other things and then I got the SandMan.

Melanie Avalon: Which is in my refrigerator, by the way.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh my God. If you can get beyond the fact, yeah, so if you can get beyond putting it in your rectum because I know like, my whole family, I don't tell my whole family, but I was telling my husband. He was like, I don't even want to know. Don't even tell me. He's like but here's the thing. It's a very vascular part of your body. It's actually a really good place as an ER nurse, we used to put a lot of things, medications in the rectum. You have to put it in the rectum. Oh my God, you wake up the next morning, you're like, I had the most delicious, amazing night of sleep. I cannot wait to bring him on and pick his brain. I am all about the net impact of what melatonin does in the body. That's the thing that I've completely started really nerding out on is like the antioxidant benefits, especially we know with COVID that it's very helpful for healing COVID.

It's one of those things, like, I was trying to explain to someone that we think of melatonin just as a hormone. Like we think it's your sleep hormone. It works in opposition to cortisol and it gets suppressed in the morning when we get up and get light exposure. The antioxidant net impact of melatonin impacts every part of our bodies. We've got clocks, these suprachiasmatic clocks I don't know why I'm struggling to say that today, but we have these clocks in our gut, all over our body. Having melatonin healthy dose also has this net impact on serotonin and estrogen and it's amazing. Don't be afraid that you took that much because when you have the SandMan on board, I forget it's like 100 or 200 mg of melatonin. But I've been taking I did 18 mg and 12, now I'm down to six every night and it's almost like it's reset those melatonin receptors. It's really been fascinating.

Melanie Avalon: It was definitely a moment I was like, "Oh, my goodness." [laughs] And it's so interesting, like I said, I have the SandMan in my fridge, and I've been very open about this. I do all the things, like, I do colonics, I do coffee enemas. I don't know why I can't do the suppositories.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, you know what's funny? I had to laugh. There's a woman on my team who's another advanced practice nurse, and so she got SandMan first. She's a fellow nurse. The two of us laughed on the phone when she told me all about her experience. She just said, I think nurses just have terrible potty humor because we just giggled like schoolgirls laughing about it. I think once you get over the fact that you're putting it in your bottom, it's like, not a big deal, but like, the net impact. I think the other thing is it's also expensive. Let me be clear, I'm not using this every night. I'm using it like once a week just because it's not inexpensive. But I cannot wait to interview him. Have you interviewed him yet?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I've become pretty good friends with him, so I'm probably going to text him after this and say that were fangirling over his work. Another suppository that just came in the mail, because this is the type of things that people send to me, a CBD suppository I just got in the mail. Do you take CBD, do you use it?

Cynthia Thurlow: Not regularly. I mean, I went through this period of time where I had a lot of either podcast sponsors or people who wanted to sponsor Instagram content. I was getting a lot of CBD products, and it became a running joke. Like, I had so much, I couldn't use it all. So now that is all slowed down. I think for me, I initially used it for sleep, but then I started feeling like there were other supplements that for me personally were more beneficial. So, I kind of let that go. I know the whole physiology behind, I think, CBD, if it's a good quality product, which I'm sure you received in the mail. It's all fascinating, but I've just found other things that are more beneficial for me for sleep or if I want an anti-anxiety thing, I'll grab GABA. That's just worked well for me.

Melanie Avalon: Because I found that CBD is definitely very individual. For me, it's a game changer.

Cynthia Thurlow: Really, that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Once I found my dosing, so I take it every single night. And it's just really amazing for me. I work historically with one brand because the problem is there're so many CBDs on the market now, and there's just no regulation and it's really a problem. I found Feals, and I love Feals and take Feals all the time. This company that reached out for you because I literally get approached by CBD companies probably weekly. It's crazy, but they reached out and this relates actually to everything we're talking about. They make lubricants and oils and a lot of that stuff and it's so hard to find.

Cynthia Thurlow: Clean stuff. I have some other stuff. It's good.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I was very excited about that. There's so much more that we could touch on, but there's one big topic that I did want to circle back to that we kept approaching but we didn't actually really discuss, and that is the perimenopause transition to menopause. Do all women go through perimenopause? I didn't realize, for example, that there's five phases. I learned that in your book, like with your patients, how many women struggle with it. Something I thought that was really interesting was you mentioned that for smokers and for women without kids that it might come earlier. Do you know why that is? Do you have any idea?

Cynthia Thurlow: I don't know. The smoking piece. I think just in general smokers tend to embrace less healthy habits. I think that's probably what it's based off of in terms of being we use the term nulliparous as you haven't had children, I'm not entirely sure. What I have seen clinically is that thinner women are going into menopause earlier. Like 47, 48. Average American is 51. So, does everyone go through perimenopause? Yes, if they live long enough. Hopefully, everyone listening is going to live long enough to go into perimenopause. For some people, it could be five to ten years preceding menopause. I think that the women that do best making that transition are the ones that are doing the work. You can get away with a lot in your 20s and 30s. I can officially say this as a middle-aged woman you can get away with a lot.

Like what I got away with in my 20s and 30s in terms of what I ate and how little I slept and not managing my stress. I have a super stressful job. Forty was definitely leveling the playing field. If you are not over-exercising, you've got an anti-inflammatory diet, you have a job that brings you tremendous joy, you have great relationships, you're getting good quality sleep, you're not over-exercising. You're going to have an easier transition than someone who's doing the opposite, standard American diet, very sedentary, smoking. Doesn't have a job that they love. Maybe they have a lot of significant financial and other types of stress in their lives, doesn't have a support system. Your perimenopausal transition is really a barometer of how well you're taking care of yourself. We as women tend to do a really great job of taking care of everyone but ourselves.

It's no surprise that this is the time when a lot of women start advocating. It's also the time a lot of women have children at home and maybe their parents are aging. It can be a very stressful time period. The women that I see that aren't riddled with horrible hot flashes and tremendous weight gain are the ones that are doing the work. I think that obviously I had that blip when I hit the wall of perimenopause but then I straightened everything out. I stopped doing 5:30 AM conditioning classes, I slept more, I didn't have such a-- I didn't perceive it was a restrictive diet, but probably too low carb for me. Managed my stress better, really took better care of myself. I do think women can get through that time period. That research that I found there's not a lot of great research on perimenopause because it's this nebulous time. For some people that might only have five years in perimenopause and then boom, their period stops and it's all over.

It's certainly been my experience that we recognize that hormones like estrogen, so obviously, at the beginning stages of perimenopause, you're going to have this relative estrogen dominance because progesterone is starting to wax and wane. The ovaries, you may not be ovulating every month, and you may not even be cognizant of it. Your symptoms might be as benign as you're waking up in the middle of the night. Maybe you have more anxiety and depression because progesterone is that kind of buffering mellow sister hormone. And you've got this relative estrogen dominance. So, you're gaining weight, you've got fibrocystic breasts, you got very heavy crime scene periods, as I affectionately used to refer to them. That can be kind of the beginning stages, but a lot of the rest of it can be very bio-individual. Something that's important for people to understand is the weight gain piece, which can be so distressing, especially when you're doing all the things that you should be doing to help maintain your weight.

It can really be a byproduct of cortisol being up. Remember we talked about these cortisol receptors? We've got 40 times more cortisol receptors on our abdomen. It can also be a byproduct of the fact that we lose the buffering effects of estrogen. So, estrogen is an insulin-sensitizing hormone. Meaning as you are getting closer to the end of your menstrual cycle for the rest of your life, you are going to be more prone to insulin resistance. Add in poor dietary choices, stress, sleep disturbances, it's like the perfect storm. It's really just kind of cruel. I look at my teenagers and they're hitting puberty, and mine was starting to peter off. The lens with which I look at perimenopause as a transitional point is that women do have control over a lot of things. And so that's always that reframe. What do you have control over? It goes back to those pillars that I've talked about throughout our conversation.

In my book, Intermittent Fasting Transformation is really honoring sleep quality, stress management, anti-inflammatory nutrition, not over-exercising, connecting with people, and doing things that you love as opposed to forcing yourself, doing things that you don't enjoy. Perimenopause can be a wonderful time for women. It can also be a harrowing stressful time. What I do find is for a lot of women that when they finally go 12 months without a cycle, it's a big sigh of relief. It's like one less thing to have to worry about. For a lot of people, there's a tremendous amount of shame and embarrassment with no longer being fertile, which I think really is a detriment as women that we really need to reframe it. We spend 40% of our lifetime in menopause. Why not make it wonderful? It's a time when people can have tremendous creative purposes. Their children may be grown, or they may be at a different point in their career, or they may be able to travel. 

There can be just a lot of wonderful things that come out of no longer having a menstrual cycle every month. Certainly, I'm an example of someone that made that transition pretty effortlessly. I think a lot of women can. They shouldn't look at it as something to fear. That's what I get DMs about, "Oh my God, what am I going to do?" I just say, "Hey, it's part of life. If we live long enough, it's going to happen." If it makes anyone feel better, men go through andropause it's just a little less dramatic.

Melanie Avalon: That is a beautiful reframe, which appropriately enough is one of the topics that is near the end of the book and also typically tends to be near the end of my episodes. But that is the role of mindset. You talk a lot about mindset. One thing I love in particular that you talk about is reframing limiting beliefs. One of the things I love about your book and talking about limiting beliefs is there are a lot of limiting beliefs surrounding dieting and fasting specifically. You talk about how to reframe them, but you would need the knowledge in order to properly reframe them, especially when it comes to concerns surrounding fasting like it's unsafe or I'll be hungry. You really do need that knowledge to know why that's not true. What are some of the mindset practices that you find really can benefit women? Limiting beliefs, gratitude. Oh, I love your good, better, best. I've talked about that on an episode of IF podcast for so long because I had never heard of that before, like that concept. It's the perfect solution for people like me and a lot of listeners who might be perfectionists. They're really intimidated by making changes or doing things because they think they have to be perfect. So, I just said a lot. But yeah, mindset, the role of mindset.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I think mindset is everything. I say that to my kids that probably makes them grow to hear their mother saying that ad nauseam. I really do think that whatever challenges we're presented with in our lifetime, it's all about the reframe. It's all about the mindset shift. It's all about finding the good, through adversity comes opportunity, which my kids here all the time. Even if you're having a crappy day, like finding one thing to be really grateful for. I think starting your day with gratitude, getting really granular, it could be as silly as "I'm grateful for day I woke up before my alarm clock." It could be that simple. But we know that it helps. It changes the physiology in the brain. We recognize how critically important it is to just look at life. It's not being pollyannaish, it's just acknowledging that there are going to be bumps in the road.

You're going to have a time when maybe you're traveling. This is an example of the good, better, best. Especially for, as Melanie said, those of you that are more perfectionistic, you're in a store or you're in a restaurant, and you can't get grass-fed, pastured anything. And so, it's good, better, best. It's like, what is the best option I can make at this restaurant? I'm going to eat it, I'm going to enjoy it, I'm going to let it go. Just giving yourself grace, that's another aspect that I would say for me, where I am in my lifetime is, I'm a reform people pleaser and I'm a reform perfectionist. I say this from the heart, is giving myself grace. Like, not every day is going to work out the way I wanted it to. Not everything is going to work out the way that I wanted to and I think it's so important as women that we acknowledge our uniqueness and how special we are, but also acknowledge that sometimes things just don't go the way we want, and that's okay, we can just roll with it.

I always say to my kids, there was something that happened professionally this week that was a total bummer, but I reframed it and said, okay, this is the way things are going to be at this time with this particular class. It's totally okay. We're going to work through it. It's that constant acknowledgment of looking at the good in your life, reframing things, expressing gratitude, understanding, like something as simple as learning something new. It doesn't have to be complicated. I've been nerding out on audiobooks recently, which I go through periods of time where I've fixated on one thing or another. I was saying to my husband, like, just being in my car, because every woman that's listening probably spends too much time in their cars, I was able to get through 15 hours of an audiobook, and it brought me so much joy because every time I got in my car, I could listen to the audiobook again.

Just acknowledging, like, learning something new can create more synapses is this concept of neuroplasticity, how critically important it is for us as women to make sure we've got, like, a healthy dialogue in our brains, because we can what wires together, fires together. I tell people all the time that your thoughts become your actions. So, again, that neuroplasticity piece is so important. I think far too many people think terrible things in their head and maybe they say nice things out of their mouths but your brain hears everything that you're thinking. It's really important that we're very dedicated to making sure that we're just as healthy-minded as we can be. I think, again, the past two years have taught us a lot, and I think at many levels, really were to celebrate that we're making it like, on the other side, we're all better for these past years what we've been through.

Just really acknowledging that creating a practice of proper mindset is something you work on every day. It's not like I wake up every day and I'm thinking everything is going to fall into place. There are days where I just happen to stumble across something. Mel Robbins, who I think is brilliant, has written and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, how did she know, this is exactly what I needed to see this morning to put a smile on my face." Just surrounding yourself with positive messaging people who are encouraging, creating boundaries, that's one other thing I probably didn't talk a lot about in the book. Creating boundaries for individuals, making sure the people that you spend time with you interact with are healthy, well-adjusted humans and not toxic people that take your energy from you.

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more. I just think it's so important and I love how you're talking about trying new things and learning new things. Perhaps my favorite benefit about intermittent fasting is definitely up there, but it's one that's not quite anticipated by a lot of people, and it's just how much time you get back. At least for me, it opens up so much time and opportunity because you're not focused on eating 24/7, I love that. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. Listeners there is so much information in this book, you've got to get it, so many things we didn't even touch on, gut health and muscle and Cynthia dives deep into really specifics of all the different fears surrounding fasting and what to eat and traveling and prepping and just so many things. We'll put a link to in the show notes. Definitely get the book. The last question that I ask every single guest on this show. I asked you last time, but I will ask you it again, and it relates to everything that were just talking about. What is something that you're grateful for?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I would say one of the things that I posted on Instagram today is that one of the really cool things about my job is that I have opportunities to connect with amazing people in the health and wellness space. I'm so very grateful that we connected and we became friends and so on so many levels Melanie has added so much to my own podcasting journey and my own kind of perspectives on life. Right now, I'm grateful for your friendship, Melanie. So thank you for that.

Melanie Avalon: Aww, I am so grateful as well. I really, really, really am. You're one of the people that I'll just have moments randomly. Maybe it's when we're talking, maybe not, but I'm just like I'm just so grateful for Cynthia. Yeah. This has been so wonderful. I'm really excited because normally I record episodes and then they air months from now. We're going to time this around your book release so listeners get to hear it sooner rather than later. And I'm so excited. During this whole conversation, I've just been thinking, wow, listeners are going to love this. Thank you so much for all that you're doing. I am forever grateful for you and our friendship and your work and everything that you're doing, and I can't wait to see where it all goes from here.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

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Welcome to Episode 298 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The New Year Bundle For Free Plus $10 Off When You Sign Up Today. That’s A 14 Oz Pork Tenderloin, 2 Lbs Of Ground Turkey, And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks Free In Your First Box!

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SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The New Year Bundle For Free Plus $10 Off When You Sign Up Today. That’s A 14 Oz Pork Tenderloin, 2 Lbs Of Ground Turkey, And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks Free In Your First Box!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #110 - Jon Levy

Ep. 160 – The Power Of Behavior-Centric Health & Wellness: Trade-Offs for a Long and Happy Life with Jon Levy

ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast.

Listener Feedback: Diane - Better hair products

KNOW YOUR ENVIRONMENT. PROTECT YOUR HEALTH. EWG.

Episode 294: Creatine, Excess Skin, Toning Up, Clean Hair Dye, Hormones, Caffeine, Cortisol, Hormetic Stress, Jet Lag, Hydration, Melatonin, And More!

Listener Q&A: Cara - New study found increase risk of early mortality with fasting?

Meal Skipping and Shorter Meal Intervals Are Associated with Increased Risk of All-Cause and Cardiovascular Disease Mortality among US Adults

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A: Kemla - Does it matter?

Episode 116: The Great OMAD Debate

Listener Q&A: Nancy - one meal a day?

Listener Q&A: Spencer - Breaking fast

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 298 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine. I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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All of their beef is 100% grass-fed and grass-finished and they work personally with all the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves but the planet. This is so important to me. I’ll put a link to that in the show notes. The value is incredible. The average cost is actually less than $6 per meal and it's so easy. Everything ships directly to your door and it is so delicious. I love carpaccio for example. The ButcherBox steaks are incredible for that. That's how you know it's good steak when you can eat it rare like that and ButcherBox has an incredible offer for our audience.

You can get the New Year bundle for free, plus $10 off when you sign up today. That's a 14-ounce heritage-breed pork tenderloin, 2 pounds of sustainably raised ground turkey, and four grass-fed top sirloin steaks, all for free, in your first box. Sign up @butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to claim this offer. Again, to get a 14-ounce heritage-breed pork tenderloin, 2 pounds of sustainably raised ground turkey, and four grass-fed top sirloin steaks, all for free, plus $10 off, sign up @butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to claim this offer. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting. It's actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. 

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years. 

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more. 

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 298 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I’m Melanie Avalon and I’m here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, Cynthia. Can I tell you a story and also ask you a question? They're unrelated.

Cynthia Thurlow: Of course.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, great. [chuckles] This week I had a really crazy moment. I had two interviews for press-related stuff, and I was prepping for one of the interviews. You might have seen this on my story, so I'm sorry if I'm telling the story again. I was prepping for one of the interviews and I knew one of the questions was going to be about being a female entrepreneur. So, I googled, well in DuckDuckGo but it happened in Google too. I checked. In DuckDuckGo, I googled “tips female entrepreneur” the first hit, literally the first hit was an article from Forbes, and it was the one I was in. And not only was it the first hit, but the preview text was my part of the article. So, I literally googled something to prep for the next day and I was the first hit. Isn't that crazy. I keep thinking about that. That's very surreal. Like, out of all the people in the world. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: So, I thought it was funny that I was trying to find the answer and I clearly already had the answer. Yeah, that was my fun story. And then I have a question, but do you have any fun stories you would like to share? I know you saw Hamilton.

Cynthia Thurlow: I did. We were in New York City this past weekend, so my family and I, it's the first time we've all been together in New York in five years, which is hard to believe and it's very different with preteens versus teenagers. We had a lot of fun and Hamilton was worth every effort at seeing it on Broadway. I'm just phenomenal. The irony is I flew back to New York two days later for the Influencers Dinner. 

Melanie Avalon: All right, with John. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Which I did last night, which was amazing. I met such amazing human beings and people that were in different fields. The irony is the only person who guessed.

Melanie Avalon: Who all were there? 

Cynthia Thurlow: There were artists, there were chief marketing officers for major brands, like recognizable brands. There was a cardiologist who was in the midst of the pandemic, like, hitting New York City, who was absolutely brilliant. People just in different fields, but all really interesting like, there was a guy who had been a record producer for, like, Biggie and Pink, just such a diverse group of people, but no egos. Everyone was lovely and you were not allowed to give your last name or what you did. So, we were all interacting and then went about putting a meal together and then sat and had a meal. We went around the table trying to guess what everyone did. 

The person who guessed correctly, what I did turned out to be the cardiologist, even though we had not even talked about any of these things. He was just such a cool person. I would never have guessed he was a cardiologist because of his personality. He was just kind of more free spirited and relaxed and not nearly as intense as most of the other people. I had an amazing evening, but I was up really late for me and then was up at 04:00 in the morning and I'm working on a solid, like, 4 hours of sleep. So, I'm sure tonight I will crash. But right now, I'm running on adrenal and it was an incredible experience. I told John that you said, “Hello.” 

Melanie Avalon: That makes me so happy. I love hearing about those events. I really want to go to one as well. John keeps sending me all the dates. I'm like, “I'm going to come to one, I promise.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, it was a lot of fun. I guess the thing that was really interesting was one of the we thought was participants turned out to be his mom, who was so lovely. I got to meet her and she was visiting from Israel. It's interesting when you see people in their natural habitat because this was actually a dinner at John's house. He was totally gracious and very supportive. I went home with a signed copy of his most recent book. His dad was this incredible artist and went home with a book of his father. So, it was like, all in all, just a really incredible, like less than 24-hour experience. Yeah, no more New York travel for a while. 

Melanie Avalon: That is amazing. John and I have been bouncing off ideas. I don't know if we're going to do this. We've been thinking we should start a podcast or something just because we talk about all of these crazy, random topics. He's so well connected. I just feel like there's a lot that we could do. [chuckles] So that's so exciting. Wow. Yay.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It was a really great experience. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, for listeners, we'll put links in the show notes. Cynthia and I both had John on our shows, so we will put links to the episodes that we had with him. His book you're invited is super cool. It's all about how well, I think the subtitle is something about the art of cultivating influence. But it's about how people cultivate influence. It's about how people become, like, respected leaders with communities and basically leaders of groups and things like that. It's really interesting. It's human psychology. So why people do what they do. So, yeah. 

Cynthia Thurlow: What was really interesting was that only a few people in the room knew who he was, but they still came to this dinner, which I thought was so cool because someone said to me, like, “How do John?” I said, “Oh, well, through my friend Melanie, but I've also had him on my podcast.” He made sure that he was like, if you ever need any support in your business or you have questions, I'm here for you. I think it's a really phenomenal way to network with people because you're so disarmed, because you're not allowed to lean into what's easy, meaning, like talking about your work or leading with your title, whatever it is that however people lead. That's not the way that I am. When you're making a meal with people, you really just get very relaxed, invested in the process. And so, we even helped clean up. We even did dishes. Everyone was part of making the meal, cleaning up for the meal. It was a really delightful evening. 

Melanie Avalon: That's so fun. It's nice for him, too, not to have to do dishes at the end [chuckles] of all these dinners because he has a lot of them and he does them in LA, San Francisco, and New York. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well and I think it's just nice to feel like this is really the first time I've been in New York. Maybe in September when I was there, when I spoke, but this is the first time I've been back in New York where it's felt like the New York I remember. There's still a lot of mask-wearing, that's a whole tangential conversation and there's no judgment. I'm just saying observationally. There was a lot of mask-wearing and people just being conscientious, but people just seemed, like, happy to be back interacting in person in real life with other humans. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's awesome. I should probably say his last name is John Levy. I don't think I said that. 

Cynthia Thurlow: He's so smart. He was even talking about his siblings, all of whom are incredibly accomplished, too. When we found out his mom was at the table, I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is so amazing.” 

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool. Yeah, I love that. My question for you, because this episode airs January 2nd, so this will be the day after New Year's Eve or the day after New Year's Day. Cynthia, do you make New Year's resolutions and do you recommend that people do?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that I personally don't per se change a lot from year to year. I'm of course open to the possibility, but I try to have a word of the year. That's what I lean into. In some years balance or dedication or whatever I'm leaning into and so, I'm mulling over the idea of what is going to be my focus for 2023. On a lot of different levels, I think it's probably going to be clarity about where I am in my business and where I am in my personal life. So, I do think it's a good idea to evaluate behaviors, what works, what doesn't work. But to me, I don't like to think of it as like a New Year's resolution because that to me, really means a temporary thing, whereas if I have a focus for the year, that's how I choose to frame it so that it's something I'm going to be consistently working on month to month, day to day. And so, clarity is my 2023 word, I'm fairly certain. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: That is super cool. I like that. That's a very practical, implementable thing that people could do. Maybe I should do that. I don't really and I think it's because I kind of feel like every day is like a New Year's resolution day. Like constantly, I’ve so many dreams and goals, and I always feel very inspired and motivated to be doing them. So, it doesn't feel like, “Oh, this is the chance to start anew.” I'm constantly in that vibe. Not to say that people who make.

Cynthia Thurlow: Growth headspace.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, but I don't mean by that people who make New Year's resolutions aren't that way. It's just it doesn't feel like a milestone in my personal life right now. It might change. I'd be really curious though, if people want to tell us their New Year's resolutions. I wonder if the most common New Year's resolutions like what they are. Like the top 10. I would bet one of them is weight loss, but I bet one's probably career related.

Cynthia Thurlow: So, I am fully adulting now and between our financial advisor, our financial planner, my CPA in my business, it's like we've gotten very granular. I think part of the clarity piece for me, just for full transparency, is that we've gotten really, really, really specific in my business about where my energies go, where they do not. I'll give you an example as I'm sure it happens to you. You get asked a lot to do press, you get asked a lot to do guest podcasts. I was finding that I was spending so much time supporting other people's podcasts that I wasn't creating the space for me to be able to be in my business and not be stressed going from one thing to another. One of the rules that I created with my team was that I only do two guest podcasts a month and I could easily do 20.

It's one of those things where we've gotten very specific about what metrics, what's their audience like, is it a good fit. That's made me very happy because coming off of the book launch, this year has been wonderful but exhausting and it's not a pace I want to keep up. This is not to suggest my podcast is going anywhere or this podcast is going anywhere. I'm just talking about guest podcasting and is it in my best interest to be overcommitting myself. So, as an example, we've already filled the two spots in December, we filled the two in January, now we're working on February. That has allowed me to feel like I have a little bit more breathing space and so we're doing things like that because that serves my higher purpose. Then I can devote more time to my business and not feel super stressed, which has been my baseline this whole year for sure. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no. I think that's amazing and that's something I've been really working on as well, is you want to just say yes to everything, but you can't. You need to know [chuckles] when to say no and that's okay. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, well, and it's interesting, when you really start getting granular about metrics and who is their audience, is it really serving my best interest and their own to have me on. We've had to politely say no to a lot of opportunities because I either don't want to be traveling all the time, that's another thing. Getting very clear about what speaking events I'm going to do and what are the things that are going to lead to more opportunities and understanding that, you and I both know this that our time is valuable as is everyone's. but does it serve me to be on planes and flying all over if it's really not laser focused on what I'm working towards. That's the one thing I would say, “Clarity.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's great. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I take AG1 several times a week after working out and when I'm ready to break my fast and it really makes me feel unstoppable. I love to add it to a protein smoothie, or actually we'll drink it with filtered water and I love both variations. My 17-year-old also enjoys AG1 after a workout to ensure he stays really well hydrated. A great deal of what I focus on in my personal life is ongoing gut health improvement. I do feel fundamentally that AG1 has contributed significantly to improvements in my gut health over the last three years. I feel as if the key health benefits from multivitamins, minerals, pre and postbiotics all work together synergistically to improve my gut microbiome. AG1 is way more than just greens. It's important to note that it's made with 75 super high-quality vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients that deliver incredible benefits to the gut microbiome, as well as sleep support, assistance with energy, and so much more.

So, if you want to take full ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. I find that these five free travel packs are so convenient when you're traveling. In fact, I was in Los Angeles last week and I used one each day that I was away. Go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast that's athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast and check it out. 

Melanie Avalon: All ready. Shall we jump into everything for today? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. 

Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, this is actually some feedback from a listener. We recently were discussing toxic hair products and whether or not there were options for coloring your hair and we provided some brands. We just got some quick feedback from Diane, and the subject is “Better Hair Products.” And she says, “Hi there, just wanted to remind folks about the EWG website. Listening to your last podcast, someone asked about less toxic hair color/care. I've been looking for a while, and I found a few cheaper brands of hair shampoos and conditioners as I like to switch them often. Herbal Essence has some that rated low. Obviously, the scented ones rate a bit higher. Unscented castile soap is a one." I'm just going to insert something. This is Melanie talking. I am obsessed with unscented castile soap. I use it for everything. Do you use it, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. 

Melanie Avalon: I use it in the shower to take my makeup off and the sink to wash my hands. I mean, that stuff is just amazing. 

Cynthia Thurlow: And it lasts a while. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it does. Yeah, it's incredible. I think you can also use it for the dishwasher and clothes if you make certain concoctions, but I haven't done that. She says, “I'm sure there are more, but I can't get into my personal list on the EWG website, I also found a pump hairspray that smells edible. It's raspberry and reminds me of one from the 80s that I used to use, but this is much friendlier and far less toxic. It's made by All-Nutrient, which is local to me, but I see they sell it on Amazon. I also tried a brand called I think it's Qet and the sample they sent, but it was the size of a paperclip and despite my toddler-sized hands, I couldn't even spray the thing. As far as color and lighting, I'm with you. I asked my three hairdresser friends to research this and find the least toxic/gentlest kinds, but no luck yet. Love listening to and learning from you and Cynthia XOXOX.”

I'll just comment if listeners check out that other episode. We did list quite a few dye brands that were options and I would actually love if people do have experience with nontoxic hair dye. I would love to hear if people have found brands that they like, because it's definitely one of the areas where there doesn't seem to be a lot of options. I'm surprised we didn't mention the EWG. Definitely, the EWG is amazing. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, their Skin Deep app is certainly very helpful. Diane, thank you so much for sharing those. It gives us more options to consider. Listeners, if there are other brands that you like using that are cleaner, certainly pass them along. I think to me it is a work in progress. Hair is my pain point. I'm very transparent about that, but that does not mean that there aren't wonderful options that are out there. I'm just happy I'm using Argan oil, which is super helpful for the frizz that I experience about eight months out of the year, here in very humid hot Virginia. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm having flashbacks to growing up in Memphis and the hair situation. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I didn't realize you grew up in Memphis. I thought you grew up in Atlanta. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, I was here until 10. I was in Memphis my formative years of 10 until 17. So, middle school and high school, elementary school part of it. What's interesting is out of the entire timeline of my life, I've lived in Memphis the least. Compared to Atlanta and Los Angeles, Memphis feels like where I've lived the longest because it was when I was growing up. 

Cynthia Thurlow: So cool. Little known facts. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. Shall we go on to our next question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. This is a question from Kara and it says, “New study found to increase risk of early mortality with fasting. Please interpret.” "Hi, I saw this post on Instagram from @fastingmd. The study is referenced in the show notes. She mentions, “I love this way of life. I typically fast while I'm seeing patients because I know my brain is more clear and I am more focused. It's usually about 18 hours. I've recently tried a snack at 2:30 to take probiotics for leaky gut, but I just don't like the way I feel less on if I do have a snack. After months of trying to figure out my gut issues, I went to a functional medicine practitioner based on your advice. It was the best thing I've ever done. I had no idea how not normal my bathroom experiences were, but also the amount of mental exhaustion from worrying and trying to figure out what it was that I ate that caused the issues. I tried eliminating every food category with very little improvement. To the listeners out there who this is ringing true for, go get a specialist to guide you. I am a healthcare practitioner and I couldn't solve it on my own. I'd love to hear your opinions about the study, Kara. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, Kara, thank you so much for your question and your experience. I will just comment with the probiotic snack thing. I don't know which probiotic you're taking, but a lot of probiotics you could take it with your meal or possibly even on an empty stomach. I would just look at your probiotic again and see if it indicates that it needs to be taken with food. But I feel like most probiotics you could take on an empty stomach, so that might be an option. Also, thank you for sharing your experience and your openness about being a healthcare practitioner and realizing that you can still benefit from a third-party perspective guiding you. That's super amazing. The study that she referenced is called Meal Skipping and Shorter Meal Intervals Are Associated with Increased Risk of All-Cause and Cardiovascular Disease Mortality among US Adults. It was published August 10, 2022 in the Journal of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. 

It was a prospective study. It looked, in retrospect, at a lot of people, a total of 24,011 adults who had participated in surveys about food intake and eating behavior using 24-hour recall from 1999 to 2014. What it did was it looked at a lot of things, but one of the main things that looked at and why everybody is talking about this is it looked at the role of meal frequency and how it related to cardiovascular disease and mortality and they separated it into different options. There were people that skipped breakfast, people that skipped lunch and people that skipped dinner. They found that people who skipped breakfast had a higher cause for CBD mortality compared to those who didn't. People who skipped lunch and people who skipped dinner had a higher cause for all-cause mortality.

So, of course, it has a really scary headline, which is annoying and we can break this down. I mean, the headline makes it look like it is literally the meal skipping and the shorter meal intervals, because they also looked at how often people were eating, and they looked at that association. In the title, of course, they say that is leading to an increased risk of these diseases and death. But what did it actually find. So, what's interesting is it was looking at a lot of characteristics of people. So, it wasn't just the meal intake. The people who did not eat three meals per day, because the majority of the people so over half of the people were eating three meals per day. The people who weren't, so their general characteristics, they were more likely-- so it's a list. They're more likely to be younger men, non-Hispanic black, less education, lower family income, smokers, heavy alcohol drinkers, higher physical activity, lower total energy intake, lower diet quality, food insecure, and they snacked more. So, what's really interesting about this is [laughs] basically there was a lot of confounding factors happening in these people who were skipping meals. It's really really hard to say that it was the meal skipping that was the cause of this, when there were so many other things going on, unhealthy related habits that seemed to associate with it. 

Also, of interest of note, and I would actually be really curious, I would be super curious if this got redone now, if it would be different, because this occurred, like I said, from 1999 to 2014. Intermittent fasting has, I feel like, really become more popular probably in the last decade. Kind of near the end of the study is when intermittent fasting started becoming more popular. During the time of the study was definitely the time when we were all told that breakfast is the most healthy meal of the day. A lot of people who are skipping breakfast, especially during this time, might have had other unhealthy habits or on the flipside, people who are eating breakfast might more likely have had healthy habits. It's hard to associate causation from correlation is my point.

So, yes, the takeaway is that this was not cause and effect. This did not look at people's blood sugar levels. It did not look at an individual fasting and see what was happening in their body. It literally just looked at thousands of people what are they doing, how are they eating, and then what was their cardiovascular risk and their mortality risk. 

One last note about it, dietary recall studies can be a little bit problematic. I even heard Peter Attia say on an episode that he doesn't even ever consider dietary recall studies because we're just so bad with recalling. So, for example, in this study, from the original group of people, they removed 3136 participants due to implausible total energy intake. Meaning what those people reported didn't make sense realistically. There was really probably no way they were actually eating that. If there were 3136 people that were clearly overwhelmingly wrong in what they were saying, it makes you curious about the people that were included. So, yes, takeaways, dietary recall study issues, the timing of when this occurred during a time when fasting was not seen as a healthy practice, and then the confounding factors, I think, is huge and then lack of actual cause, and effect causation versus correlation. 

Not to say that there's not valuable information here, but those are my thoughts on this study. Cynthia, what are your thoughts? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I agree with everything that you've said. I think this is the challenge with nutritional research on a lot of levels. Patients oftentimes do not want to fully disclose what they're eating. It's not to suggest that's per se not kind of human nature, but more often than not, I know when I ask for diet recalls, sometimes I fervently believe that people tell me what they think I want to see or want to hear. Nutritional research in and of itself is challenging.

Number two, I do think that there are many issues with looking at research over a long period of time. As you very appropriately mentioned, we didn't know the insulin sensitivity of these individuals. It's my understanding from the study that it was a fairly unhealthy population that they were looking at and so, does it mean that there's more research that can be done? Absolutely.

As you appropriately stated, correlation does not mean causation and so that's why it's important. Really this is one of the challenges I have with the media is that they don't know how to properly interpret research and what they do is they like sensationalization and so, they'll throw out these articles. There's one in the New York Post that I got tagged in all over social media and people were saying, “Oh well, this is going to hasten your morbidity and mortality.” And I was like, "Hey, time out. Let's look at who sponsored the study, let's look at the data, let's look at the high quality of research.” 

We know that randomized controlled trials are the gold standard and obviously that's not what we're looking at here in this instance. I think it just really speaks to the fact we need more information, we need more research to look at this, but epidemiologic research in general looking at different types of research, nutritional research can be particularly challenging on a lot of different levels. I think it just remains to be seen. If we're looking at an already unhealthy population, it's very hard to extrapolate and then say this is applicable to everyone. Hopefully that's clear.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. For example, what I would love for them to have done, which they could have done, I don't know, it's a little bit annoying. They could have separated it out because I mentioned all of those factors about people who were not eating three meals per day what they were more likely to be. I would be super curious if they separated out the people who were skipping a meal by any one of those confounding factors to see if there's a difference. Maybe since its food related, they could have done it by the food stuff. They could have split it by lower diet quality and food insecurity and seen if you separate it that way, do you still see that pattern. You could filter the data a lot of different ways and I bet you would have seen a lot of different things. So, it is what it is. 

Cynthia Thurlow: It's just the beginning point to really look at things. The other piece is that probably our listeners and ourselves, we don't eat a Standard American Diet and we recognize now how inflammatory and problematic the Standard American Diet is because it's highly processed, hyper palatable, too many carbohydrates, too many wrong types of fats, too little protein, and that doesn't help metabolic health at all. There're so many different things that usually when I'm looking at these kinds of articles, I always want to know like, what were they eating because I think that has a large impact on the results that they are reporting. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it was interesting. I was actually thinking about that when I was reading the article because for diet quality, they actually broke down how they determined that, but they didn't give specifics. It was basically like-- It was like a dozen categories of components of food like fruits, vegetables, fatty acids. It was like a dozen of them, salt, sodium. Even within that, there's so much debate about diet. So, I find it interesting that even ranking things by diet quality, I mean, there would be nuance and debate within that. One other little note I did want to point out, I looked at the original post that she referenced on Instagram. I thought this was interesting. Do you know the @fastingmd, she follows you? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. I do. I think she's a fan of circadian fasting. That's kind of her cornerstone. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, okay, got you. So, I don't know if she did this on purpose. I'll just assume she did not. It was a good moment that I thought was a good thing to draw attention to because this goes back to like really encouraging listeners to look at the source material, especially with things like this, where it gets into social media and the news. This is a very small thing, but I still think it's telling of what is happening all the time. So, for example, she mentioned what I mentioned about how the participants who are skipping meals were more likely to be all of these other factors which are mostly unfavorable in that they are associated with lesser health outcomes.

She listed the entire list, but she left out one which was the positive one. She left out higher physical activity and so it could have been an accident. I'm not saying it was on purpose, but I think it's a really good example, because I read it and I was like, wait, but higher physical activity was also one of the things on there. I think it's a good example of even when somebody says, even me right now saying, “What's in the study,” go read the original study. Because I think every time you hear not from the actual source material, you're getting a filtered biased version of it from me, from everybody, even from you. When you read it, you're going to give it your own filter and bias. The most unbiased version you can get is probably reading the original one. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's important. I mean, we're realistic, I may not be able to read every single piece of research that's out there, but certainly the ones that are intriguing and really relevant. Looking at the sample size, I mean, just looking at basic tenets of the research that was done, I think can be very helpful. I have to believe if @fastingmd is anything like my team, sometimes they're so quick to get content up but sometimes things get missed. So maybe that was unintentional. But I know that Amy's, it's Amy Shah. I know that her content tends to be surrounded around honoring circadian biology as it relates to fasting. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Yeah. Again, it probably was unintentional, but it was completely separate from her. It was a moment where I realized again how important it is to go look at the original stuff if you have the time and energy and it's something that you are interested in. 

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Shall we go on to our next question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. 

Melanie Avalon: We have two questions that are sort of related, so I thought we could answer both of them. So, the first one comes from Kimla. The subject is “One meal a day: Does it matter.” And Kimla says, "I hear a lot of disagreement about what really defines one meal a day." Cynthia, I'm just laughing because I think I mentioned before you know we've had, like, the great one meal a day debate on this show, like Gin and I have debated the definition of one meal a day at length, it became a whole thing. What really defines one meal a day? [chuckles] I wonder why so many people debate this. Is it just a label that people want to place on their fasting pattern?

According to Gin, I adhere to one meal a day, but if I use Melanie's definition, then it would only be sometimes. What I do know is that I typically fast for 21 hours. My eating window varies daily based on how hungry I am. Sometimes I have a five-hour window and sometimes two hours. I do use an app called LIFE on Android to track my fasting time since I've only been doing IF since June, and I always forget what time I quit eating the night before. I think I've gotten offtrack of what my question was now, basically, does it really matter if you truly eat one meal a day or is the fasting window the focus? When I start reading a lot about one meal a day or listening to all the debates over one meal a day and by the way, she's calling it OMAD. 

She says, “I start to get a little obsessed about how much I should or should not be eating during my window, and if I can have a snack or need to cluster all my food. I have noticed this tendency. So, instead I really just tried to pay attention only to how I'm feeling. This has been working great so far. I eat ice cream most nights after dinner which makes me so happy. IF is a keeper in my book. Thank you for all the information. The podcasts and resources have been great tools and I love this way of life. I have never lost weight so effortlessly, no special foods, no containers. I don't have to pack and drag food all over with me, I never feel hungry, and my crazy sugar cravings have disappeared. Thank you for clarifying this concept.”

We have another question from Nancy. The subject is “One meal a day?” and Nancy says, “I'm a new IFer and I've been doing a 16:8 fast. I read here a lot about having one meal a day during that eight-hour feeding window, which seems to contradict other things. I read or hear about eating all of one's calories within that eight-hour feeding window. I basically don't understand what it means to eat one meal within that eight-hour window. Does it mean that you can eat one meal, say at 12:30 PM, a big lunch or 07:30 PM, a big dinner and snack for the rest of your feeding window? If you do only one meal, what is the benefit of that versus spreading out your eating window within your eight-hour window? I like to have a lunch at 12:30 and a dinner at about 7:30. Is there a reason I shouldn't do that? Thanks.”

Before you jump in, Cynthia. I'll give you some recap of Gin and I's thoughts on this and what the great debate was, which in the show notes. The show notes will be at ifppodcast.com/episode298. We will put a link to the great debate, the great one meal a day debate episode that I have with Gin. It's ironic or it's interesting because Gin and I typically eat over the same amount of hours-ish, so it's typically like probably an average of a five-hour eating window, probably four to six hours. The difference is that Gin has a pattern where she has a snack and then she doesn't eat and then she eats her meal later, whereas I eat the entire time straight through [laughs] like the entire four or five hours. It's a very long drawn out pattern. Listeners probably already have it memorized. Like I eat my cucumbers and I drink my wine and then I'm cooking my food and then I eat my food, which is like my scallops, my protein, and then I eat a lot of fruit for quite a while.

Our big debate was I was saying for Gin, I was like, “Yours is like one meal a day and a snack because you're having a snack and then you're not eating and then you're eating.” I was like saying for mine that, “It's one meal because it's like being at a really long dinner where I'm constantly eating.”

Kimla's question about why does it matter, I really don't think it does. [laughs] It's more just the semantics of it. Although, that said for Nancy, I don't really know anybody who would consider like an eight-hour eating window at one meal a day. That's pretty long. So, I can share more thoughts. But Cynthia, what are your thoughts on the semantics of one meal a day? Does it matter? What do you call it? All the things. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, goodness, I feel like I'm stepping into a landmine. So, Kimla and Nancy, thank you for your questions. First and foremost, I think it's important to, if you're metabolically healthy, to intuitively eat. So, when Kimla asks about some days when she has one meal versus other days she eats more than one meal, I think there's nothing wrong with that. In my estimation, one meal a day is exactly that one meal a day. When I think about Melanie's methodology and how she chooses to have like a wider feeding window, a wider eating window, I guess that's maybe the way to call it. I kind of differentiate that. I mean that to me is different. I think we can get caught up in semantics. I would say the same thing about when people ask, does this break my fast. We get nuanced and granular and everyone's stressing. I'm like, really what we should be focused on is determining how many meals do we need in our feeding window to get our protein in that's the first thing. I think that's very important for some people. If you're a unicorn and you can eat a huge meal and have 100 g of protein, more power to you. I'm not that person. I divide my food, my meals into at least two, if not three meals to get my protein in. 

Number two is I think it's important to vary what we do. I think most of us need to do that now. Do we have unicorns? Absolutely. That's a loving word when I say unicorn each one of us are individuals, each one of us needs something a little bit different based on our own needs or personal professional needs. And that's totally okay. Women that are still getting a menstrual cycle really should fast for their cycle. Women that are in perimenopause and menopause need to be careful about over fasting. I'm starting to see a lot of this women that are irrespective of life stage, but they are having very rigid rules about when they eat, how much they eat, a rigid fixation. 

I do think just one meal a day is a problem. I think it's fine every once in a while. Let me be clear what Melanie is defining as what works for her, she's getting plenty of protein in that feeding window. If you're just having one meal that has 30 g of protein, you are chronically undereating and that is something I get concerned about. There's zero judgment. Each one of us has to decide what works for our bodies. But if you're chronically undereating and you're chronically undereating protein in particular, and you are a woman north of 35 or 40, you are putting yourself at risk for metabolic inflexibility. That's what I want to just state. I recognize not everyone may like that opinion, but I do feel that it's important to at least interject. Can you get your protein in in your feeding window? Do I have one meal a day when I'm been traveling or maybe I went on vacation and I ate too much? Sure. But do I do that every day? No, but do we need to split hairs about OMAD? OMAD to me is one meal in a feeding window. It is not like a wider feeding window, like what Melanie does. To me, I don't think of that as OMAD. I just think Melanie has a gradual feeding window. How’s that? Is that a good way of describing it? 

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. So, I guess, well first of all, super glad that you drew attention to, I think, the crux of the issue with the one meal day of getting in the protein intake. So, yes, that's definitely the major focus there. I guess the reason I feel, I feel like I'm having flashbacks to me and Gin talking, the reason I feel like mine is still one meal a day is, it's like being at a restaurant. It's literally a one meal situation. I start my eating. I'm like having the meal, it just happens to take, because I eat so much volume wise, this is all like whole foods, so it's all pounds of meat, pounds of cucumbers, pounds of blueberries, so it takes a long time to eat all of that. I like to eat slowly, so it's like eating one long slow meal. If you went to a restaurant and it was like a four-hour dinner type thing. 

That's why I feel like it's one meal because it's not like I'm having a snack and then not eating and then having a snack and then not eating, and then eating. It's like mealtime. If listeners are curious what I'm doing, I know people say that you should eat and just eat and focus on just eating, but I'm always reading two books at any one time, so I'm listening to one on Audible during the day to prep for the Melania Avalon Biohacking Podcast. I'm always listening to one during the day and then at night is when I read. I'm reading during those four hours and taking notes. That's why I feel like it's a meal situation. It really doesn't matter. It's semantics.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I love that you have this whole process of creating digestive fire. You're starting kind of slowly and then building up to this crescendo and then it comes back down. For me, it's two boluses of food. I do know there are a lot of people out there that have differing interpretations of OMAD. It's not that one is right and one is wrong. I think that to me it makes sense to say OMAD is one meal, one food bolus. If you have two meals in your feeding window, great, but I don't think it should be a source of stress. Like ultimately eating less often should not be causing you more stress like really and truly. We have enough stress in our lives. We don't need to add more stress stressing about definitions of things. 

Melanie Avalon: I agree. I would comment that like an eight-hour eating window, like what Nancy is doing. I don't see how that would really be one meal. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Right, right. It really should be two. I mean, I'll give you a prime example. I traveled yesterday, I traveled this morning to come back from New York, and today is a much wider, fasting window because I literally have not been able to stop and eat. So, when I'm done with this podcast, I will go eat and I'll probably divide my protein into two portions because I'll probably eat a little bit and then a little bit more before I would close my feeding window just to make sure I get enough protein in.

Melanie Avalon: Got you. Yeah. That also goes back to knowing yourself and the unicorn comment and things like that. I do so well with just a massive, massive bolus of protein all at once. For a lot of people, I understand they can't handle that like they would need to separate it. So really, it's about knowing yourself. You commented on this. That's what I really love about Kimla's observation. She seems to be very intuitive with how she feels. So, yes. I think not getting lost in the semantics and like Cynthia said, stressing about the definitions and all of that. There's really no need to just focus on what you need to get out of your eating window.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's important because one of the things that I get the sense of is that there's anxiety around rules and there's anxiety around lifestyle changes. And that's definitely not what we want. We don't want to create more anxiety. We actually want fasting or digestive rest, like you do 12 hours of digestive rest. Like, it really should not be an added stress to your life. For those of you that are newbies, certainly lean in. There're so many great podcasts, like, over the last several years that Gin and Melanie did, and Melanie and I have been doing since May. And there's so much great information. Our books are great sources of information as well. Don't let it be a stressor. Just the concept of intuitive eating, intuitive fasting may not be accessible for everyone right now, but that's what we hope you get to a point where you can really lean into what makes your body feel good. 

You're an N of 1. This experimentation that goes on in terms of lifestyle changes. I know that the most I can eat in terms of a protein bolus is about 60 g. That's a good amount of protein for me in one meal. If I do 75, I'm probably going to be uncomfortable. So, 60 g is what I've been able to work up to but that didn't start right away. That was something I worked up to. We know most women are eating probably 40, maybe 50 g of protein a day. Most of us are not eating enough. Just be consistently working towards goals and that's the best that we should be able to do, right? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I could not agree more. I find it so interesting, too. If I just ate, like, 40 g like you were saying, I would be starving, starving. Every time I go out to dinner, I get an entree, now it's my dessert, another round of meat. So good. So, so good. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I love that. It's funny Ben Azadi, who I know that you have recently recorded with, Ben, gets two dinners. And so, my husband the first time--

Melanie Avalon: Well, he does two. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. Ben is, like, very tall and very lean. We were in Utah together, my husband and I, and his fiancée and Ben, and we're having dinner. And his fiancée, Natassia was like, “Watch.” And Ben's like, “I'll have two dinners.” And they were like, “What?” He was like, “Oh, yeah, we'll have two dinners.” And my husband and I were like, “What's wrong with that?" [unintelligible [00:55:49] one good-sized meal. 

Melanie Avalon: Does he have them at the same time or does he get them back to back? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, at the same time. 

Melanie Avalon: Like I did on my birthday dinner. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Hmm-mm. And he ate it all. We were like, he's like a teenage boy, he has that capacity. I was like that's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: I will get two entrees, or I will get an entree and then for dessert when everybody gets their dessert, I get another entrée. And I will say, so a little tip for listeners if anybody else wants to do this, I don't know if anybody else wants to do this. But especially if you're like keto or low carb, which I'm actually not, ironically enough, but it can be really fun to get an appetizer, like another round of sashimi or another steak for dessert. Let the kitchen know. If you're there late, they'll often shut down the entree part of the kitchen early. If you do want that for dessert, you need to let them know earlier on that you're going to be ordering that. Just a little tip for the one other person that wants to do this already.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's a good tip.

Melanie Avalon: They've cut it close sometimes because I've waited too long to tell them.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] You also eat late at night, so they're probably like, “We're done.” Melanie's like, “No, I need more food.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. If you get an appetizer for dessert like the tartar, the carpaccio that comes from one part of the kitchen that might have shut down, and if you get an entree for dessert that comes from another part of the kitchen that might have shut down, the appetizer part of the kitchen is actually more likely to have shut down, I think. Now, I was thinking back to my serving days. That might not actually be true because oftentimes the dessert station is the same person as the appetizer station. In any case, the point is, ask your waiter or let them know. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. 

Melanie Avalon: Should we answer one more question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. Our next question is from Spencer. Subject is “Breaking fast.” “Is there a proper way to break a fast? I feel like I want some items that are still a little unhealthy and seem to not really be losing weight on the scale. Maybe I need to also throw mine away but it got me thinking.” I'm assuming he's talking about the scale. “I keep hearing about there being a proper way to break a fast. Any thoughts on what I should be eating when I break my fast to provide me with the best results? I'm currently listening to the podcast and maybe haven't seen this question yet. Thank you.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Spencer, thank you so much for your question. It's interesting because we have talked about this question on the show, seeing as how many episodes we've had, probably multiple times. But I think there's a unique spin we can give on answering at this time because normally when we have answered this question, I think it's been more in the context of how to ease your digestion, how to help heal leaky gut. Opening with things like bone broth and with gentle things you can digest. I don't know that I've given the perspective before of how to break your fast with specifically weight loss being the goal. And so, something that occurred to me is that and this is very individual, I think knowing how your body responds with insulin, you don't have to actually know the insulin number, but your perception of responding with blood sugar swings or not to different foods can be very helpful in the ordering of your food.

Because, for example, I mentioned before my order, my crazy order, oh, I'm so happy that we're answering this in here because this works so well together. The reason I do that order is very specific. It's what provides me well, hey, I can digest it well, but it provides me the most-- I always wonder, is it satiety or sha-city? I say satiety, right? But can it be both? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I say satiety, and I can assure you that after doing the audiobook for my book, the producer made sure that every word was enunciated and properly, I mean, everything. Yes, you say it correctly.

Melanie Avalon: Great. I have the most satiety with my personal pancreas and my personal insulin and my personal blood sugar regulation. When I open with the wine and cucumbers, like, that doesn't make me ravenous, it doesn't make me have blood sugar drops. Then I eat the massive amount of protein, which I find very satiating. The reason I actually eat a ton of fruit at the end is because I have found that mitigates what I either perceived as reactive hypoglycemia when I was doing low carb or might not have actually been reactive hypoglycemia. It might have been, we talked about it before, there's a name for it. I think it's like, idio--. It's basically feeling like reactive hyperglycemia, but it's actually not. You actually have normal blood sugar levels, but you feel like your blood sugar is dropping. When I was doing low carb and eating a mass amount of protein, I would be really satiated, and then I would go to bed, and then I would wake up starving. 

I think it was from my blood sugar probably dropping from the high protein intake. I do that pattern because it allows me to feel full, feel nourished and I don't get swings later. So, I think knowing yourself and experimenting to find what can you open your window with that will for you keep you full and satisfied, can be very helpful. For a lot of people, if they were to open with a simple carb-type situation, they might get a massive blood sugar swing that might make them ravenously hungry and make them overeat, even things like alcohol. Some people, the timing of the alcohol, depending on where it is, depending on their own alcohol metabolism, might make them eat more or less. Depending on that, the timing of if you're eating fat or not could make a difference. Basically, I would focus Spencer on finding the way that opens up the fasts that provides you with the most satiety.

Cynthia, what are your thoughts? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I am a fan of leading with protein into opening up your feeding window. Sorry, that would be my dog groaning underneath my feet, in case anyone's wondering. I think leaning into protein is important both for blood sugar support and also for satiety. For me, it's either protein and non-starchy carbohydrates, or it's protein and healthy fats, and that's typically how I break my fast. I just think protein is a really important macronutrient and one that I spend a lot of time talking about. I spend a lot of time discussing examples of protein and non-starchy vegetables. It could be chicken, it could be bison, it could beef. You could have arugula or spinach, or you could have broccoli or cauliflower versus sometimes when I sit down to have a protein and fat meal, it might be a piece of salmon, fattier cut of meat.

Those are the things I kind of lean into because it fulfills my needs in terms of getting my macronutrients in, but it also leaves me satiated. I can always tell if I haven't gotten those macronutrients right, because I will then be looking for more food when I'm done. But I think some degree of experimentation to find out what works well for you. I have some patients that want to break their fast with bone broth, others that want to take a light salad, like what Melanie does, where she has her cucumbers and her wine, and then she leans into the protein piece. I would do some degree of experimentation to find out what works best for you, but the protein is one that I always try to emphasize for most people.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we like @ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. That is all the things. Anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. Super excited for our upcoming recordings together and I look forward to getting feedback from listeners.

Melanie Avalon: Likewise, and because of when this comes out Happy New Year to you. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Happy 2023, hard to believe.

Melanie Avalon: I know. It's crazy. I'm excited for it, though. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Me too. 

Melanie Avalon: All right, I'll talk to you later.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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Welcome to Episode 297 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 297 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things, like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook Group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 297 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie. How are you? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I have a question for you. Have you done, is it, BBL, for laser? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Broadband light?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. I do that in conjunction with Profractional once a year.

Melanie Avalon: I'm about to do it right after this.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, did they tell you that it's not painless? I don't share that with you to frighten you. No one told me that. The first time I had just plain BBL, it's like snapping a rubber band against your skin.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, awesome.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm sure they'll probably give you something topical, but if they don't ask for It.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, should I put numbing cream on my face? I have it.

Cynthia Thurlow: I would bring it with you and just double-checked. They may have something that they want you to use.

Melanie Avalon: Is it okay if you have cream on your face?

Cynthia Thurlow: They're probably going to clean it. I would ask them what their protocol is?

Melanie Avalon: Probably should have thought about this a little bit earlier.

Cynthia Thurlow: Because, I can tell you BBL is not painless, but with numbing cream it is tolerable.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I might put on some numbing cream while we're talking, so it can be like soaking in because I think it has to soak in for a little bit because I do laser hair removal and always use the numbing cream for all of that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Did they give you lidocaine in a jar? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I have that and then I have, there's one I order on Amazon that I like as well.

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay. It's probably not as strong like when I get Profractional and BBL done on my face, it's like the most you can legally prescribe. It works very effectively. Like my face will stay numb for 2 hours.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Okay, I might grab some. Second question is because I'm glad you've had it, they said I'll be fine because I am recording with Ben Azadi tomorrow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, you'll be fine. Yeah. If you have melasma or if you have any brown discoloration on your face, it'll make it darker, but it's not like you can't function. It'll be darker and then it all flakes off and go away.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's what people said. They said it rises to the surface and then falls off.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's like if you have an exaggerated freckle and then it goes away.

Melanie Avalon: And then it goes away. I'm very excited.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it works very effectively and I think most people don't even realize how much brown pigment they have in their face until they get it done and then they're like, Holy cow.

Melanie Avalon: It's pulling out the pigment from your face, sort of?

Cynthia Thurlow: The laser itself helps to break up the pigmentation. Like you can have red areas in your face and you can have discoloration like brown areas. Especially for women that have been on oral contraceptives or just have had a lot of sun exposure, they can have melasma and pigmentation on their face that most women don't want to have, so it's an easy way to help address it.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I've heard really wonderful things about it.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I go once a year and I always say, like, I have a love-hate relationship. I love the way it looks once I've healed, but I don't love it at the time. It's quick, so it'll be over before you know it.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'll start while we're talking, I'll be rubbing some numbing cream on my face. What's new with you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Not a whole lot. Gearing up for the holidays and excited to not be traveling. Last Christmas we went away, we had a wonderful vacation and my kids kept saying, it's just weird for it to be warm [laughs] in Christmas. This year they wanted to stay home and so we are staying home and my mom and stepfather are coming to visit. Be a little bit of high [unintelligible [00:11:15] my mom is here but she means well. You know moms can be.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Holiday, family dynamics.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Well, actually to that, my dad actually is having surgery, and it's a pretty intense surgery, so I'm sure it's going to be fine. It's really made me want to make sure I do a lot of stuff. I mean, it's going to be fine. We planned a lot of really fun things to do. Like, this weekend I'm going over we're going to just have a game night, and then we're going to do an escape room that's King Tut themed. Have you done escape rooms?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not yet. I think when that started to become really popular, it was like preceding the pandemic and then the pandemic happened and we never did it.

Melanie Avalon: They're so fun and when you do them, you just realize, I feel like they're really good for your brain, your body because you're like moving all around. They're very immersive. Yeah, they're super fun. I've only done two. This will be my third one, but I would love to do them more. Actually it's funny, I interviewed A.J. Jacobs. Do you know him?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do not.

Melanie Avalon: He's so funny. It's been one of my favorite interviews to date. I was dying laughing. He wrote a lot of books. He's like a four times New York Times bestseller. He just does random stuff. Like his most well-known book. He just read the entire encyclopedia and talks about what he learned from it. The puzzle book, though, was about puzzles. In any case, he just has a section on escape rooms and this never occurred to me. Apparently, there're a lot of cliche guests that show up at escape rooms and one of the cliches will be the guy that will ask a girl on a first date and take her to the escape room, but he's done it multiple times, so he knows all the answers, and then he acts like he doesn't.

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Sneaky.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All the escape rooms, but anything else new in your life?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, just gearing up for 2023 and trying to survive day to day with teenagers that are at times snarky and at times funny and trying to remind myself that those pleasant little cute kiddos are buried deep within them. I have moments where I'm just like, "Oh, my goodness." We just got back from visiting three colleges last week, and one with a big stand out for my son, who I think wants to study engineering. And it's hard to believe. It's like I blink. I remember when he was born and it's like, how is it possible that we're looking at colleges? This is like a top 20 engineering program, and so it's like one out of eight kids get in. It's really intense. Having to explain to him, you got to work your butt off. This is not half-assing anything. And he's got, like, four AP classes. He's got a pretty intense year, so we're just trying to help him head in the right direction, and hopefully, he'll have a couple of reaches and a couple of safety schools and then have some others that are pretty much guaranteed. But we're fortunate we're in a state where there are a lot of, I would say there's probably three or four really good state schools that a lot of people come to from out of state, so we're fortunate. Do you remember those applying to college years?

Melanie Avalon: I graduated early, so I applied when I was a sophomore in high school, so I didn't even go through the college application process.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, my gosh.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I applied to USC. They have an early entrance program. I found out, I guess early junior year and then I left after that year.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's interesting because they have two early decision options now. This is how it is in each school we looked at and one is binding and one is not. Essentially, they take the university he wants to go to. That's his first choice. They take 350 students, early decision.

Melanie Avalon: So, it that where you skip senior year of high school?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, he's going to need to go his senior year.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's just like making the decision earlier.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Well, he would be if he does an early decision and gets accepted, he knows November 1 where he's going to go the following year, but that's binding.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah. I got to live vicariously through my other friends and then also, like, my siblings. And it was fun. They actually let me in my high school, they let me go on the senior trip even though I was gone. I had been in college a year and then I went on my senior trip with my high school friends and they were just graduating.

Cynthia Thurlow: What was that like to go to college? I'm guessing you were a year younger than you would have been, but obviously very dedicated.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I was 17 and it was funny. I don't know if he wasn't in my program. The program that I did, they had 20 people that they take every year for that program. Not in my program, but I met somebody else who had done that and that person had actually skipped a year in high school as well. He was like 16 when he went, which is crazy.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, my gosh. Especially with a boy I can't even imagine. My son will be 18 in his senior year, and then he'll be 19 when he starts. With boys, they need a little more time to mature.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Cynthia Thurlow: And you get the gift of time. Like I always say, I will never regret sending my kids to school when they were 6 and not 5, so I got an extra year with them.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that makes sense. Besides the fact that I missed out on some senior-year stuff. I missed our basic econ class and government class, which I just feel like I missed out on some basics that I could have learned from that. I missed out on the literature class from senior year. Besides that, everything felt really normal. Like, it just felt like going to school.

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, I think from my perspective, there are some people who are just way more emotionally mature and ready for the rigor. Like I say all the time, my youngest is at a [unintelligible [00:17:01] High School, and it's like college. I think college will be easy for him after this, and so he's just ready for it. I'm not so sure my 17-year-old is ready for that amount of rigor, but my 15-year-old is very, like, he sits down and literally comes home and rewrites his notes, tapes his notes, writes his notes, spends a week studying for an exam. I say all the time, like, we aren't doing this. He's doing this all on his own. He's very self-directed and so he's got a fire in his belly and that's innate to who he is as a human being, but I think it'll serve him well.

Like, he has talked about, he already knows where kids have been accepted for college from the high school he goes to. He's like, "Oh, they take this many to this university and this one to this one." Whereas, like, Jack, my oldest son, his high school will take three to the same university. Liam is like, "Oh, our school took 65." [laughs] It's an interesting dynamic, but they're exactly where they need to be. That's why I say, like, very self-directed, mature, focused kids. They might be ready earlier for those kinds of academic challenges and things like that.

Melanie Avalon: People are definitely all different. I'm just thinking back about how different me and my siblings are as well. You also can't really tell I don't know if I should be saying this publicly. My brother had his intense period where he was struggling, but he's, like, doing so well in life now, so people can really, I don't know, come out of anything.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, now. I think anyone that's listening, whether they're reflecting on their own siblings or their kids, everyone kind of matures at a different pace. My oldest is a little more-- he's very smart, but he's a little more laid back. He literally for the first time in his life, has been really challenged in one of his AP classes. I'm seeing the effort he's making and he's doing that very self-directedly and I'm proud of him. You can't motivate him the way that I can motivate my younger one. It's very different. I have to be careful. Like, I'm the gunner. I'm the one that had the fire in the belly. To me, I understand my younger son and my husband understands my older son a whole lot better. We try to make sure we're conscious of that.

Melanie Avalon: I think I mentioned recently I interviewed Seth Davidowitz. His most recent book was Don't Trust Your Gut, but he has a whole chapter on parenting and the effects on children and their ultimate-- how they end up. I might have mentioned this on the show before. I just find it so fascinating. He really makes the case that it's mostly nature, not nurture with the exception of one factor. Did I tell you this? There's one parenting decision that parents can make that seems to really affect how their kids turn out. Otherwise, not so much.

Cynthia Thurlow: Interesting. What is that parenting decision? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It's where you live?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I can imagine.

Melanie Avalon: I guess because of the effects it has on their entire environment and how they grow up. It's where they live and how many adult role models they have that are not their parents.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's interesting. To give you an example, so my youngest is a high school freshman and when he was in 7th grade in the midst of the pandemic, one of his teachers led a private class for him and a couple of his peers and they learned Macbeth. So, he knows Macbeth backward and forwards. So, sure enough, what are they reading in freshman year? MacBeth and his teacher said his grasp of concepts is so, first of all, it's unusual that he's interested. Number two, his grasp of the concepts and the nuances is so unusual. And Liam loves it. Like, he feels like a total empowered badass. He's kind of quiet in class, but his teacher said he always has this deep insightful comments. She said does he read Shakespeare on his own? And then I explained the context. Like, in the midst of the pandemic, we were trying to get him to interacting with some of his peers virtually.

This one teacher really took advantage of the fact that he could get them to be interested in Shakespeare. He still talks about this teacher how much of an impact he had on him and how grateful I am that during the pandemic, he was able to, A, be interested in learning about something and B, takes such a lead in his own education. He didn't turn it off. He just leaned in and learned and really enjoyed it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, that's amazing. Yeah, there's definitely that type of reading. All the things that's what I was doing growing up.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I could imagine you were like a little budding Liam, but the girl version, I get it, totally get it.

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Well, shall we jump into fasting-related things for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. Our first question is from CC, subject is "Ashwagandha and diabetes. I love your podcast. I would like to know if taking ashwagandha breaks your fast. I first read about it in the Prime Diet and started taking it before intermittent fasting, but I'm now afraid it will break my fast. My second question is on the link of intermittent fasting to diabetes. I'm so excited about fasting but just heard of the recent study that links fasting to pancreatic damage and type 2 diabetes. I have diabetes in my family history, but I'm very careful what I eat, more low carb, but this new study is scary. What are your thoughts? Thanks."

Melanie Avalon: All right, CC thank you so much for your question. Well, for the first one, for ashwagandha. Assuming it is just pure ashwagandha, it should not break your fast. I don't really do much with adaptogens, but you are a fan of adaptogens, right?

Cynthia Thurlow: I love adaptogens for many reasons and ashwagandha is one of these really flexible adaptogens, meaning it can be helpful for balancing cortisol. It can also be very calming, so you can take it sometimes in the morning and it can be energizing, and then you can take it in the evening and it can be balancing if you're feeling like your cortisol is high. It's also one of the best-researched adaptogens.

Melanie Avalon: I've taken ashwagandha a little bit. I personally didn't notice many benefits, but I know a lot of people have. Is it a nightshade? People say that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, it is. If you're sensitive to nightshades, you want to avoid ashwagandha.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. The ones I have tried, I've responded well to Rhodiola.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, Rhodiola is great at nighttime. I think my other favorite is probably Relora, so it's derived from magnolia bark and it's very calming, and that's a great one to take at night.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, interesting. The Rhodiola always made me energetic, so I would take it during the day.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's interesting. Out of all the patients I've taken care of, I had one woman who swore it made her wide awake at night.

Melanie Avalon: The Rhodiola?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think that has some bio-individuality, meaning, from that point on I stopped using it not necessarily with every patient, but I really started leaning into other options like Relora, which is really nice and very calming and nourishing for the brain.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Do you think you'll make some adaptogens in the future?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do, although I tend to be kind of a purist and so I definitely think about either a sleep blend or something that will be helpful in the morning to be energizing. I mean, I've vacillated back and forth, but I think most of my focus is going to be either on sleep support or things that are going to help with insulin sensitivity or muscle growth or muscle performance. I think initially those are going to be my focus, so I do think adaptogens will be part of that. It's just figuring out what's the right blend because when you start blending things together, you don't always know what's working and what isn't versus if it's just creatine or just one type of like magnesium L-threonate, which I love. You have a better sense, is this working for someone or not?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, that's so true. I agree about the single things because otherwise you won't know. I guess speaking of things that really benefit blood sugar control, my berberine launched, when these airs it will have launched 10 days ago. So hopefully people stocked up. If you would like to get that, we are actually having a special. The special ends at the end of this month. Stock up now at avalonx.us, the special is you get 15% off of one bottle or 25% off of two or more. This is really the time to stock up. I've really been honestly floored because I was taking berberine originally just for blood sugar control, but after deciding to make it, I've really been researching all of the other benefits and it's overwhelming all of the benefits. GI health, obviously blood sugar control, reducing blood sugar, reducing cholesterol and lipids.

When it comes to the gut microbiome, it seems to increase beneficial bacteria and decrease more problematic bacteria. Actually, it helps the body's reaction to LPS, which is the toxic byproduct of bacteria. They think that actually might be a mechanism for how it affects blood sugar, which is interesting, which just speaks to how intensely our gut health relates to our overall metabolic health. I think our gut microbiome is affecting things way more than we realize.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh yeah, I totally agree with you. It's interesting. I did IG Live, I'll be bringing Dr. [unintelligible [00:29:04] on the podcast in January, and she's a gastroenterologist, like a functionally focused gastroenterologist, and she has this great book that just came out talking about the role of viruses in the gut microbiome. It's really apparent to us that she and I trained over 20 years ago and Lord knows we knew very little to nothing about the gut microbiome. And it's almost like peeling an onion. The more you learn, the more humbled I am. That's actually going to be, it's called the antiviral gut, but she was fantastic and I cannot wait. I don't do many IG Lives anymore, but she was well worth the IG Live. That was definitely a highlight of my week.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's amazing. We just don't even realize and I will comment though quickly, that the primary mechanism of action for berberine reducing blood sugar, I mean, I don't know, it's probably not the gut microbiome. It specifically affects pathways in the liver and can downregulate the liver's production of glucose and also can affect glucose absorption and utilization and insulin and things like that so yep. Again, the link for that is avalonx.us. Through the end of the year, you can get 15% off of one bottle and 25% off of two or more, and then after that you can use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON to get 10% off and that code will get you 10% off sitewide as well.

Okay. And then for CC's second question. She wants to know about the link of IF to diabetes. I am not sure what study she's referring to. I researched, I searched a lot to try and find a study talking about intermittent fasting encouraging diabetes and I think I found it because the study came out, it was in 2018, it was called "Could Intermittent Fasting Diets Increase Diabetes Risk?" It was published in the European Society of Endocrinology. It was one of those studies, Cynthia, how these studies come out and then all the headlines are talking about it. That was the case with this one. What's really interesting is it's no longer on the website, so I can't find the actual study. I'm guessing the study got, was it redacted? What's weird is they don't have a note. It just no longer exists. I'm thinking she was probably talking about that study and I'm thinking something happened with that study to the fact that they don't have it published anymore.

In any case, what it was looking at was it was a study in rodents and they put them on fasting diets and they found that, I think it was an ADF approach every other day, and they found that the rodents did lose weight, but their insulin went up and they gained visceral fat. The conclusion or the hypothesis was that even if fasting was resulting in weight loss, it was actually encouraging diabetes and metabolic issues by its effect on insulin. Stepping back from that well, first of all, like I said the study is gone, something happened with it which is suspect. Moving beyond that, I could not find and maybe I didn't search enough, but I could not find any other studies saying this. The overwhelming majority of literature on fasting is that fasting has a very beneficial effect on insulin, on diabetes risk, on things like that.

For example, a much more recent meta-analysis from 2021 called "Intermittent Fasting: Is there a Role in the Treatment of Diabetes?" A review of the literature and guide for primary care physicians. Like just reading from it, it literally says, "The majority of the available research demonstrates that intermittent fasting is effective at reducing body weight, decreasing fasting glucose, decreasing fasting insulin, reducing insulin resistance, decreasing levels of leptin, and increasing levels of adiponectin. Some studies found that patients were able to reverse their need for insulin therapy during therapeutic intermittent fasting protocols with supervision by their physician. Current evidence suggests that intermittent fasting is an effective nonmedicinal treatment option for type 2 diabetes. More research is needed to delineate the effects of intermittent fasting from weight loss." The long story short takeaway is whatever study CC saw that one or another, I would not be worried about intermittent fasting for increasing diabetes risk. I think the overwhelming majority of data supports the opposite. Cynthia, do you have any thoughts?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. It's interesting. This is always a good example of cherry-picking research and data mining and the catastrophizing that goes on in the media when people don't know how to read research. I would concur with you that everything that I read and everything that I look at really supports this carb-insulin hypothesis. For someone to somehow suggest that intermittent fasting, which is our ancestral birthright, is somehow going to create pancreatic damage and contribute to diabetes, I think is really dangerous because we as humans are not designed to eat the way that our modern day lives have kind of embraced. It just makes me sad that someone propagated an idea that was picked up by mainstream media that suggested that this would somehow be harmful. In fact, I have Dr. Jason Fung's book sitting in front of me because my intermittent fasting coaches are reading this month.

The Obesity Code talks a great deal about relevant and current research that supports this hypothesis of carbohydrate restriction. That doesn't mean carbohydrates, but I definitely am a fervent believer in carbohydrate restriction for people who are metabolically unhealthy and certainly those that are insulin resistant. I always say knowledge is power and if you know that you are metabolically healthy and metabolically flexible, then you can adjust your carbohydrate consumption accordingly. To suggest that somehow, it's going to damage your pancreas. Type 2 diabetes is a lifestyle disease. Let me be very clear. Type 1 diabetes is an autoimmune destruction of the beta cells in the pancreas, very different. To somehow suggest that nutrition is playing a role in type 1 versus type 2 is unfortunate.

Melanie Avalon: I keep saying it, but I find that really interesting that that study is just gone.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, redacted, and it's probably because it's garbage.

Melanie Avalon: Normally, even if a study is not good, you can still find it. It's still up on the Internet. The fact that it's just gone is very weird, but telling?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's a fascinating development.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, it is. Of course, just to comment on what you were saying about the sensationalization of these findings and such, they're not going to come out and say, "Hey, study was redacted." There's not going to be a whole new swarm where they say that this was undone. If you were saying this, it's concerning that these ideas can get out there that might not be accurate, and they can be just so sensationalized and presented as truth. It's hard to unlearn something that you were exposed to even if it wasn't true because once you hear it. By the way, I'm not discouraging different findings coming out. I'm all for all the different findings and questioning things. It's just the problem comes when most people aren't going to actually look at the source material and think about it and they're just going to listen to or many people I should say most, but many people will just listen to the news and take what they say, which also will be a slightly bastardized version of the original source material.

Cynthia Thurlow: I always say it's the rabbit hole that you have to dive down. Like, someone got excited about some creatine research and they shared it with me and I said, well, it's an N of 26, so the potentiality exists that there might be something worth investigating, but it needs to be statistically significant. That's more often than not what I see is various small sample sizes and then they extrapolate from that and then convince people, "Oh, this thing that you've been doing for five years is no longer healthy." It's like, "Wait a minute, let's look at the data, let's look at the research, let's be thoughtful." And I agree. I hope listeners know that we're always happy to read stuff that's contrary to our own opinions. I think that's part of just being an intellectually curious human being. It's like show me the evidence and let me look at it and then we can decide if it will encourage us to form a different opinion or if it just validates what we already think.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I want to know, like, tell me why I'm wrong. That's why I love reading different opinions for me, I love it. I want to know where I'm thinking incorrectly. I would like to know that that would beneficial. I'm not wedded to any one answer or at least as much as I cognitively perceived myself not being wedded to. I know we all have biases that are really hard to see past, but I really do try to be open.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: Okie Dokie. Shall we answer another question? This actually relates to what we're just talking about with your creatine. Nikki says "Hi, Melanie and Cynthia. I would love for you to discuss the science behind creatine a bit more, especially after learning Cynthia has a creatine supplement coming out soon, which is actually now out. I have some Thorne brand and try to take it when I remember, but I'll admit it could be a bit more consistent. I'm a questioner under Gretchen Rubin's The Four Tendencies framework, so it helps me to know why when I'm trying to make something a habit. My question is why is creatine necessary even if you're meeting your protein requirements? In my case, 130 to 145 g a day. My other question is, when is the best time to take it? Thanks for all you do."

Cynthia Thurlow: That's a great question, Nikki. What I can tell you is we don't get enough of creatine, let me just back up, our bodies have 70% to 80% less endogenous creatine sources compared to men, so that's number one. Number two is if you look at the research irrespective of life stage, women have differing needs. When you're menstruating at specific times during your menstrual cycle, you can benefit from a little bit more supplementation. I just reviewed a study this afternoon looking at menopausal women and the same could apply to perimenopausal women as they are losing estrogen, they have greater issues with muscle-protein synthesis and so supplementation could beneficial there as well. What I would say is that we don't get enough from animal-based protein because I would love to say just eat more protein. That's not going to do it. We need this specifically for ATP and the muscle so supplementation is going to be very beneficial.

I have personally been using this for over a year, obviously just only recently using my own product because it wasn't available before. My trainer last year started talking to me about it and there's a lot of really good research. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon is 100% on board with the utilization of creatine in women. To me, since a lot of the focus of my work is really talking about metabolic health and maintaining muscle mass, and gosh darn it's so much harder at 51 maintaining muscle than it was 20 years ago. I just never appreciated it. I wanted to introduce something that would be helpful for women throughout their lifetime. I would recommend taking it during your feeding window, not during your fasting window. Melanie and I were talking about this earlier and I was saying I put it into a smoothie and that's how I choose to consume it.

It doesn't have a taste and it's not granular. That's one of the things that the mix ability is high. There was another product that will remain nameless that I've used in the past and it's almost crystallized, so it was harder to get it to blend easily with liquids. That would be my recommendation. And, yes, I am very familiar with Gretchen Rubin's The Four Tendencies framework. I actually was on TV. Yeah, it's interesting. I was on TV with her.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, when I say on TV with her, when I was at our local ABC affiliate in Washington DC, I got to meet her. At the time I didn't know who she was. I'm embarrassed to admit that. I loved what she talked about so much that I went out and bought the book and every time I worked with a new client one on one, I would give them the quiz.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I'm so obvious what I am. All I needed was a summary of that book and I was like, yeah, I know exactly what I am.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm not the questioner. I think I was the upholder, no I wasn't the upholder, obliger.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, it's whether you uphold inner versus outer expectations. If you uphold inner and outer, so inner being you and then the outer being what other people are asking of you. Let's see if I can remember this. If you uphold both, you're an upholder. If you uphold your inner but not other people's, you're a questioner. If you uphold other people, but not your own, you're an obliger. If you just reject everything, you're a rebel.

Cynthia Thurlow: I really feel like, honestly, I'm a little bit of two. I wouldn't describe myself and I think when I took it, I was kind of on the fence about what direction I headed and I think the younger me would have been the obliger. I was never the rebel, although I've had many rebel clients and then I have to remind myself but the questioners, the ones who always ask a lot of questions, it explains so much and anyone who is comfortable and confident with who they are would never see that as a negative. It's a curiosity piece for me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I agree. For you, I always say either well, I was thinking either a questioner or an upholder.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm a little bit of an upholder, but I'm not rigid and judgmental. That's the one thing that didn't-- I'm much more I always say I don't use the term libertarian lightly. I'm just saying I just accept people where they are. I'm not particularly judgmental unless you're bad to children and animals. I do have strong opinions, but that's a whole separate conversation.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I do think the layer of how you perceive it, I feel like you could withhold or not withhold inner versus outer within the layer of how you, like the judgment layer would be separate. You could be judgmental in all of it or judgmental and none of it. I can see how certain personality traits would probably more likely lead to others.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. I really like her work and I listen to her podcast and I don't know if anyone else has this issue, but I definitely feel like we need more strong female role model podcasters. Do you feel that way?

Melanie Avalon: It's funny, I was recording just yesterday with Elle Russ, who I adore, and we were talking about because she was the cohost and host of the Primal Blueprint podcast for so long and now she has her own show, The Elle Russ Show. We were talking about the role of women, and yeah, there is like a lack maybe. I guess a lot of the podcasts, I'm just thinking to what I listen to. I guess it is a lot of men.

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, the ones I listen to, like if I really am honest with listeners, I tend to lean into some of the male ones because my husband was making fun of me because we listened to Huberman Lab all the way to DC and back because Huberman Lab was recording with BioLayne. It was almost a four-hour podcast. It was craziness, but only because I was in the car and my husband was like, "Oh, my God, this is so dry." [laughter] I was like sometimes I just want to learn. I just want to absorb as opposed to just be entertained. I think some of the male-dominated podcasts do a nice job with that. It just depends on my mood. There's definitely there's probably, like, six male-dominated podcasts I lean into, and then I listen to yours. I still need to listen to the glutathione one and a few others, but it's probably more, it's more like male-centric. Not on purpose, but they tend to be more, I don't know, data-driven, less fluff.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's true. I'm just thinking I listen to, well, like Robb and Nicki, so that's both Robb Wolf, Peter Attia. I don't listen regularly to Huberman. I listen to Rich Roll all the time.

Cynthia Thurlow: I need to listen to Rich.

Melanie Avalon: Have you listened to him before?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not.

Melanie Avalon: This actually speaks to what I was talking earlier about having an open mind. The reason I listen to him primarily is because he's very vegan. He provides a very different perspective because I'm so seeped in the keto and carnivore world. Listening to a vegan-driven podcast I find very helpful and I find him very open-minded. I find him very comforting. He interviews a lot of people that I interview as well, so he interviews people that I'd be listening to anyways. I feel like I get a different perspective coming from him and I just find him very calming. I listen to him at night and I listen to Mikhaila Peterson. I like her podcast.

Cynthia Thurlow: I don't know her.

Melanie Avalon: She's spicy. Jordan Peterson's daughter.

Cynthia Thurlow: Don't know her.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, she got popular, well, her dad's Jordan Peterson, so that helped. She had a whole thing with carnivores and she went on Joe Rogan and talked about her carnivore experience and that kind of shot her up, so podcasting, I'm just always grateful that I'm in this world because there's so many podcasts I like. Don't take it for granted that we have some amazing podcasts with an amazing audience because it's not easy.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, no. And it's interesting. I'm part of a podcast mastermind and I'm at a different stage in my business and my podcast, so I'm oftentimes giving advice to people in the group, which I lovingly do because I really enjoy this group of women, and I forget how. I don't think we tracked metrics the whole first year we were podcasting. Really, I didn't start taking podcast metrics seriously until Kelly and I, so Everyday Wellness used to be a co-hosted podcast with a friend of mine who's a clinical psychologist. It was kind of her idea and then a little bit over a year in she was less interested in doing it, and it was either sink or swim. It wasn't until 2020 that I started paying attention to those things. I said, okay, I'm going to swim, I'm not going to sink, I'm not going to turn this over. From my perspective, I think that loving what you do is certainly very evident.

I know Gin and you created this amazing community of which I'm very grateful to be a part of, and then our own ecosystems that are separate from Intermittent Fasting podcast. There's no doubt that your podcast in particular is, you do a fantastic job interviewing people and exposing me to new information, new ways of thinking about things and that's really what it's all about.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, I as well, I'm so inspired by everything that you're doing. It's so incredible. It's almost eerie the overlap, well, we have a lot of overlap in our guests and who we interview and everything, but we also have different like, I feel like yours is more menopausal and women's issues and hormones skew and then mine is just like all over the place, like deuterium-depleted water.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think mine is skewed because I know that nothing prepared me for being middle aged, and it's not like intellectually I wasn't prepared, but no one had talked to me about the things that were going to happen. I'm like if my experiences can help someone else and if I can bring on guests that can speak to that, I mean, I know my listeners and I know what's going to resonate. I know I can offer alternative perspectives, but I know what content is really going to resonate. It's been validated so frequently that now I don't ever want to be an echo chamber because as an example I had that scientist talking about that form of tocotrienols, annatto and how that can be helpful for bone health, which I think is significant for all of us. I never would have imagined that his research would really like resonated steeply.

Like, I watch all my metrics, I'm a little OCD about it. I only do it once a day, but I know exactly what content resonates and perimenopause and menopause are women north of 35. That's really who we speak to. I think that you bring on guests that have got a very wide, diverse opinions, and I think that's wonderful. I think it's important for all of us to not be an echo chamber because it's easy just to stay stuck in one spot.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so incredibly true. All the more knowledge, all the more things the merrier. I imagine I probably will, when I get to that point in my life, have a much uptake and interest, and I'm interested in it now. Just what you were talking about with what you experienced and the focus there.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, goodness. I want everyone to avoid what I did. I hit the wall and I thought I was doing everything right. I'm completely sensitive to when people tell me I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'm like, "Oh, it's all hormones."

Melanie Avalon: I was talking about this with Elle yesterday. Having gone through health issues really can be a benefit because A, it makes you learn so much about the topic and gives you agency to take care of yourself and feel better, but then also just gives you complete empathy for other people having similar things.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: I feel you people when you're struggling.

Cynthia Thurlow: Benefit from what we've learned that's what I would say for everyone.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends, exciting announcement. You guys know I love blue light-blocking glasses. I wear them every single night of my life. My favorite blue light-blocking glasses company, Bon Charge, is having a massive 25% off sitewide sale until January 2. Now is the time. I am often asked what are my favorite, "Biohacking products?" Something I truly, honestly cannot imagine my life without our blue light-blocking glasses. In today's modern environment, we are massively overexposed to blue light. It's a stimulating type of light, which can lead to stress, anxiety, headaches, and in particular sleep issues. Blue light actually stops our bodies from producing melatonin, which is our sleep hormone. Our exposure to blue light can completely disrupt our circadian rhythm, make it hard to fall asleep, make it hard to stay asleep, and so much more. Friends, I identify as an insomniac. I would not be able to sleep without my blue light-blocking glasses. I also stay up late working and wearing blue light-blocking glasses at night has made it so I can do that and still fall asleep. My absolute favorite blue light-blocking glasses on the market are Bon Charge, formerly known as BLUblox. 

Bon Charge makes an array of blue light-blocking glasses in all different designs, so you can truly find something that fits your style and reap all of the benefits of blue light blocking. They have clear computer glasses. You can wear those during the day, especially if you're looking at screens all day to help with anxiety, headaches, and stress. They have their light sensitivity glasses, those are tinged with a special yellow color scientifically proven to boost mood and they block even more blue light. Those are great for the day or evening. Then they have their blue light-blocking glasses for sleep. Those are the ones that I put on at night while working before bed. Oh, my goodness, friends it's something you truly have to experience. You put on these glasses and it's like you just tell your brain, “Okay, it's time to go to sleep soon.” They also have amazing Blackout Sleep Masks. Those block 100% of light with zero eye pressure. I wear this every single night and I don't know how I would sleep without it. I'm so thrilled because Bon Charge is currently having a Boxing Day sale, which is 25% off sitewide until January 2. Just go to boncharge.com and choose your favorite wellness products and the discount code will automatically be applied at checkout. That's B-O-N-C-H-A-R-G-E dotcom and the 25% off will automatically be applied at checkout. If you're listening after the sale ends, you can use the coupon code IFPODCAST for 15% off and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

All right, shall we go on to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. "Hi, ladies. New to intermittent fasting and I'm slowly working my way through your fantastic and informative podcast. I am a 24-year-old lean male who is looking to move from 14% body fat to 10% and really get those abs popping for summer. I have followed calorie restriction for a year with no consistent and lasting results. I exercise six times per week, badminton, squash, HIIT resistance training, and football and I'm worried my calorie deficit is too large. I eat approximately 1500 calories per day regardless of how much intense cardio I do. Am I in danger of losing muscle or any other adverse health effects of a deficit that is too large? I eat 10:30 AM to 6: 30 PM and have the above commitments in evenings to start my fast with exercise. Will this also get me into ketosis faster, by starting the fast with exercise? You are both awesome and keep up the good work. Many thanks, Alex."

Melanie Avalon: All right, Alex, thank you so much for your question. You're a 24-year-old male, already lower body fat, doing a massive amount of exercise, and eating a very calorie-restricted diet. I'm guessing that you're doing the calorie restriction because you are trying to achieve these certain goals, which completely makes sense. I am all for people going for whatever goals they want to go for. So, I support in that aspect. That said, I would definitely focus on adequately fueling yourself. I would be worried about losing muscle from that deficit because how long you said you've been doing calorie restriction, for a year with no consistent and lasting results? This is my suggestion, but I would have a complete mindset shift with the food. I would stop counting calories. I would eat to satiety. I would let fasting do its magic. If you are going to focus on something food wise, I would focus on the macronutrient aspect of things, especially if you're pursuing certain body fat goals.

I would focus on protein. Making sure that you're getting adequate protein, especially if you're concerned about maintaining muscle and not losing muscle. From there you can get a lot of benefits. I say this all the time, but you can get a lot of benefits by doing either lower carb or lower fat. There's a lot of metabolic magic that can happen when you're playing with the macros and not restricting calories. You've been doing this for a year. It's a very severe calorie restriction and it's not working. So, I would not keep doing it. I would definitely mix things up. As far as will you get into ketosis faster by starting the fast with exercise? Yes and no, so quite probably you will burn through your glycogen faster and potentially enter ketosis faster. The only slight difference is you could be doing very glycolytic-demanding activity. The actual exercise itself might be a carb-fueled workout if that makes sense. On the flipside, in theory, you should be entering ketosis faster. Do you have thoughts, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. I'm genuinely concerned about the restriction of macronutrients, especially if you're working out six days a week, which is pretty dedicated and intense, and you're doing two days of strength training and you are very likely putting yourself in a position that you are not going to be able to maintain muscle mass. Your body will probably catabolize some of your muscle to make up for the lack of macronutrients you're consuming. Ted Naman talks a great deal about thin people doing this and I always refer to it as the triad, the over fasting, overexercising, over restriction of food. I think we can unknowingly get into some trouble when we're eating in a deficit for too long a period of time. At a minimum, I think that you need to back off on the fasting. I would imagine that simply by maybe swapping out some cardio for some strength training and being very targeted with your macronutrients, especially protein and appropriately timed carbohydrates could allow you to get to the point where you could lean out.

I think at this point you're leaving your body in a deficit where it's depleted. As I mentioned earlier, I think you're putting yourself in a position where you're going to end up catabolizing or breaking down your muscle to fuel your body. Certainly 24 years old if your testosterone is optimized or growth hormone, et cetera, you really don't want to be putting yourself in a deficit like that all the time. I would definitely back off on the intensity work on a recovery day. Maybe instead of doing HIIT and all that explosive movement, give yourself another dedicated day of strength training. I would have three meals a day to make sure you're getting at least 1 gram per pound of ideal body weight of protein because I would imagine you're depleted all the time.

Melanie Avalon: This is like a massive, massive deficit.

Cynthia Thurlow: That triad, I talk about, jokingly people are like, what's your next book going to be on? I'm like it's not going to be about the triad, but I'm starting to talk more about it, this over fasting, overexercising, over restriction, which ends up depleting your entire endocrine system and can put people in some situations where they're heading in the opposite direction. High cortisol, which can lead to high insulin, high blood sugar. This is when you see people that they don't understand the interrelationship of all of these hormones when their body is in a chronically stressed, sympathetic, dominant state.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. By the way, Cynthia, my face is completely numb right now. It was like slowly, like, numbing during the show. I was like, "Well, what is happening?" This has been absolutely wonderful though. For listeners, if you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. Do we mention your link, Cynthia? How do people get creatine?

Cynthia Thurlow: www.cynthiathurlow.com/creatine.

Melanie Avalon: And for the berberine, avalonx.us/berberine. And you can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. This has been absolutely wonderful. I will talk to you next week. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good. Enjoy your appointment.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. Bye.

Cynthia Thurlow: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Cynthia's Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging

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Welcome to Episode 296 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

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positive effects on the liver

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Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 296 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, you guys know how seriously I take my health routine. That is probably the understatement of the year. One of my literal non-negotiables that I talk about all the time that I use every single day of my life is getting my daily dose of red-light therapy. For years now, yes years, I've been using Joovv and I love it because it is so relaxing and so easy to use. You've probably heard me talk about Joovv before that's J-O-O-V-V. I use my devices daily to support healthy cellular function, which is the literal foundation of our health. If you've heard any of my episodes on mitochondrial health you know this is true. Having healthy cellular function helps give me peace of mind that my body is working efficiently and has the energy that it needs to get through the day. There are so many clinically proven benefits from red light therapy and I have personally so experienced many of them. I use the red light to naturally regulate my circadian rhythm. I wind down with it at night and wake up in the morning with it. Whenever I have any muscle pain or soreness. I shine my Joovv red light on it and the pain instantly goes away. It's actually shocking. I love it for skin health, it makes my skin glow. And you can also use it for things that I originally got into red light therapy for which was supporting my thyroid. Yes, I struggle with hypothyroidism and supporting hair growth. Aside from the benefits, I've been recommending Joovv for years because the quality of their devices is simply the best. Their modular design allows for a variety of setup options that gives you flexibility plus the treatments are easy and can be done in as little as 10 minutes. Although I tend to run mine all day as ambient light. All you have to do is relax and let your body take in the light. Joovv offers several different size options including a wireless handheld device called the Joovv Go. That is amazing for targeting specific areas around your body like hurting joints or sore muscles.

When I traveled recently and had torn something in my knee, I brought my Joovv Go with me, game changer, I don't know how I would have survived the trip without it. Health doesn't have to be complicated and Joovv makes it simple by helping what matters most, our cells. So, go check out the Joovv today and while you're there, Joovv is offering all our listeners an exclusive discount on their first order. Just go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and apply the coupon code, IFPODCAST to your qualifying order. Again, that's joovv.com/ifpodcast with the coupon code IFPODCAST. Pick up a Joovv today, some exclusions do apply and we will put all of this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percentage of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. 

And lastly, if you're thinking of making clean beauty and safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally completely worth it. So, again to shop with us go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 296 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I am here with a very special guest today, quickly becoming a crowd favorite. I am here with Scott Emmens. He is the chief operating officer and cofounder of MD Logic Health, which is an incredible supplement company that you guys are quickly becoming very familiar with because they are actually my partner in bringing you AvalonX. So, serrapeptase and magnesium that we've had and Scott is back here today. Well, first of all, because he's basically one of my favorite people in the entire world and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. But secondly, I am thrilled that we are about to launch-- actually when this comes out, we will have just launched my third AvalonX supplement. And it is something that I already personally had been taking every day in my life. Not only that, but it's something I've talked about on this show so, so much. Since this show is The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, it is something that really relates to metabolic health, blood sugar levels, how well you can do your fast, and then on top of that so many other health benefits that I actually didn't even really realize until sitting down to make my own version of this supplement. And that is berberine. I've been looking forward to this episode for a long. Scott, thank you so much for being here.

Scott Emmens: Hi, Melanie, thank you for having me on the show. I'm thrilled to be on and even more excited that we're you're finally launching berberine.

Melanie Avalon: I know, I feel like this has been such a long time coming. Okay, a lot of our audience is probably familiar with you because you've actually been on the show twice before you came on. We did a whole episode on magnesium with Cynthia. And then more recently, you did an episode with Cynthia for her creatine supplement because Scott also partners with Cynthia for her supplement line. Basically, we just really love Scott. But for those who are not familiar, Scott, super briefly, could you tell your backstory?

Scott Emmens: Sure, for those folks who may not have heard the first podcast when we went through that. I was in the biotech and pharmaceutical space for 25 years in a variety of positions, in marketing, sales, and sales leadership. I eventually got out to manage market side as well as operations and operational side. I really basically worked at some of the biggest pharma companies that people have heard of Takeda Pharmaceuticals, AstraZeneca pharmaceuticals, which was at the time part of Merck, Shire, and then became a startup expert, and worked my way into the C-suite of multiple pharmaceutical companies. And I really kind of around 2018 decided I was going to start my own biotech company and did that, very successful and literally right around 2020, when the pandemic first started, I'd decided that I really wanted to get into the wellness space. And we had sold our biotech company and I had three partners. And we decided, my partner and I, at the time thought, "Let's do a wellness line, make a wellness company." We had a connection with one of the largest US manufacturers. He is a partner in MD Logic as well. And we really just both believed in making people and keeping people well and letting them optimize their life through supplemental nutrition.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's something that I really, really love working with you is you have seen the industry side of things. You know what you're doing. I have learned much and creating the supplement line, just what goes on in the supplement creation world, and how creating our own supplement line that is not a pharmaceutical, how it compares to that. And also, all of the crazy practices that go on in this industry it's a little bit shocking.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, it can be and I think that's where my pharmaceutical background really helps is making sure that we're going to do everything by the book. And by the book meaning people often see GMP on their label, it'll say GMP or GMP certified. And what that stands for is "Good Manufacturing Process." That's a compiled document from the FDA of very specific things you need to do, both in terms of the manufacturing of the product, the storage of the product, the cleanliness of the machines, the raw ingredients, the testing of the raw ingredients, as well as a number of other things including how you label even down to the font size of the label. And then including, of course, what you say about the product and how you make claims and that's where people tend to get in trouble.

We try to make the absolute best product we can. We have a great process for GMP. We have been audited by the FDA as most GMP companies are about every other year or so, and have a pristine track record and I am here to make sure that your supplements and MD Logic health supplements maintain that pristine record of both incredible quality, testing, and maintain the highest standards of GMP or above.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I am do grateful for this because honestly my goal in making supplements was, I knew I wanted to make the very best on the market. And it has been so refreshing to have a partner like you who is in line with that. And even every time I send my emails or I'm creating my content to promote the different supplements, I've come up with my list of basically the qualities about the AvalonX supplements. I say at the beginning that these are the only supplements on the market that are all of these things. And to my best of my knowledge, that's true. They're the only ones that are tested multiple times for purity and potency, free of all allergens. Scott and I have gone to great lengths to get rid of problematic fillers from the supplements, which has been a whole journey on its own, especially revisit, I'll put a link to it in the show notes the episode that we did on--. No, wait, "We haven't done the episode and serrapeptase yet, did we?" I think we talked about it though.

Scott Emmens: I think we did talk about it? But I've to go back into my memory log. But I believe we did talk about the serrapeptase, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Did you come on this show for serrapeptase?

Scott Emmens: I think this might be my third appearance. I think I did do the serrapeptase first, then the magnesium, and then creatine. Yeah, I think serrapeptase was the very first one.

Melanie Avalon: My bad. So, this is your fourth time back?

Scott Emmens: Oh my goodness, how time flies. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and you're having fun. [laughs] Okay, wait. In any case, listen to the serrapeptase episode if you want to hear the craziness with the fillers and the lubrication agents and also something that's incredible that really I think makes us stand apart is they are in glass bottles, which is very rare and unique in the supplement world. It's just been an amazing journey. "Shall we talk about our berberine journey?"

Scott Emmens: Let's talk a little bit about the berberine journey, I think the audience would love to hear what transpired? Why did it take us so long? And yeah, why don't you kick it off now?

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I started taking berberine when I started wearing something that our listeners are probably pretty familiar with which is the continuous glucose monitor. Just briefly a continuous glucose monitor is you put it on your arm, and it gives you a basically 24/7 look at your blood sugar levels. It is so eye-opening, so fascinating. Because when you're getting just doing a finger prick or yeah, a finger prick or blood draw for your blood glucose that's really just a snapshot in time. And it's not very telling of what is happening consistently. If listeners who like to get a continuous glucose monitor, you can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and the promo code IFPODCAST will get you $30 off any subscription program to a NutriSense CGM, so definitely check that out. But in any case, doing a CGM really made me look more at my blood sugar levels and that's when I wanted to see what I could do to help lower it.

Berberine is considered to be the go-to "Natural Supplement" to address blood sugar levels. The go-to pharmaceutical to address blood sugar levels is metformin. There have been multiple studies comparing metformin to berberine and finding similar effects, which is incredible. So basically, berberine can be comparable to metformin in lowering blood sugar, lowering HbA1c, which is a longer term picture of your blood sugar levels and also lowering insulin without any of the potential side effects of metformin or the other negative side effects that can come with other metabolic health blood sugar controlling agents.

Scott Emmens: Certainly, I think that's absolutely correct. One thing we want to caution and make certain that we're not giving medical advice nor are we suggesting that anyone replace their metformin with berberine, not at all. What we are saying is that berberine has some remarkable properties and there's a lot of data, in fact, it's one of the most studied herbs or alkaloids out there. And we really feel passionate about all the benefits. In fact, I was stunned to see how many benefits there are with berberine as we really dug into the research, but again, we just want to caution, never add anything or take anything away, especially metformin for diabetic patients. So, just want to make sure that that's perfectly clear.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, I'm so glad you said that. And that's actually really appropriate because we got a lot of questions about that, Karina said, "How is it different than metformin?" Marie said, "Can you take it while taking metformin?" and Lea said, "Can it be taken if one is already on metformin, can it be taken instead of metformin?" So, just to dive deeper into all of that and to what Scott just said? Metformin as well as some other drugs that are used for similar purposes can have side effects. Metformin notoriously has gastrointestinal discomfort. Metformin cannot be used by diabetics or liver disease, renal impairment or cardiopulmonary insufficiency, and then some other related drugs like I don't even know how you say it. Is it pio?

Scott Emmens: Pioglitazone. I know that one because I sold it.

Melanie Avalon: I was like "Scott probably knows it."

Scott Emmens: Pioglitazone or pioglitazone.

Melanie Avalon: So, that one can increase the risks of distal bone fractures, bladder cancer, and edema. Here's another one Scott, sulfonylur--

Scott Emmens: Sulfonylureas?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yeah, that was linked to hypoglycemia, weight gain, and cardiovascular damage. When we compare this to berberine, very little if any side effects, some people do have some GI issues potentially in the beginning, which we can talk about. But we can definitely dive into that. Because ironically, even with GI issues, berberine has a ton of potential benefits for GI Health. But besides that, you basically get all of the benefits of blood sugar control with a myriad of other benefits that we're going to talk about without the potential negative side effects of these pharmaceuticals. And there have been like Scott said, "We are not saying to stop your medications. We're not saying to even add this to your medications, that's something you would want to talk with your doctor about." Anything that you're doing, playing with your medications, definitely work with your doctor. That said, there's actually been quite a few studies looking at berberine in combination with metformin and finding beneficial effects, potentially that it might be a better approach, not saying to do this, work with your doctor. But potentially that combination therapy might be better than metformin alone because you can get more of the benefits with less of side effects.

Scott Emmens: Just going to add to that to just make sure that people make certain that if you add berberine to an antidiabetic, it can cause hypoglycemia. That's something you want to be cautious. Whatever the side effects of your prescription medication are, you want to let your physician know that you're going to take berberine and get their permission, make sure that the drugs you're on are not going to interfere with it because some drugs can have hypoglycemia on their own, when you add something like berberine, it can increase that potential. That's something people have to be very cautious of. Hypoglycemia can be a life-threatening condition as those folks who've had it know. It's interesting Melanie, the three drugs you mentioned, metformin which is sort of the gold standard, about 80% of diabetics are taking metformin or what used to be called Glucophage, the brand name, pioglitazone or TZD as they're known, which is an insulin resistance molecule, works on PPARalpha and PPARgamma. And then you mentioned was sulfonylurea which actually works on the pancreas to secrete more insulin. So, each one of those works differently. Metformin primarily works on the liver preventing gluconeogenesis and a little bit of insulin resistance. Then there's a TZD class pioglitazone, that works primarily on insulin resistance. And then there is some sulfonylurea class which increases your pancreas' output of insulin. They all work in different ways and they can all have different interactions with berberine, so again always talk to your physician. I think the real benefit Melanie is that berberine doesn't-- you don't have to have high blood sugar or you don't have to have diabetes to benefit, in fact, the real benefit we want to talk about today is what is the benefit for just people in general that want to optimize their health and optimize their cellular function and their energy. And that is where berberine shines.

Melanie Avalon: First of all, that was highly impressive, that you knew all of that. [chuckles] "I'm so impressed." Okay. Yeah, I'm so glad you said that because that is the exact same page that I'm on. And like I said, I came to it originally for blood sugar control and I think that's why most people think about it and it's a great reason to take it, but there are so many other benefits like whole body benefits. So, the questions we had, very simple, Kersey said, "Why do I need it?" Jennifer said, "What are all the benefits that come from taking it?" Amy said, "Will it help with insulin resistance?" And then what we will also get into Paul said, "Wondering what other health benefits it offers besides blood sugar regulation?" Andrea said, "Does it have any other benefits besides preventing lessening glucose spikes." So, we can dive deep into all of that. But to start off, I would like to give an overview of how it does work for blood sugar control because I think that really speaks to why it can be really beneficial to take when you understand that it's not like a pharmaceutical where-- With the pharmaceuticals they typically have a more singular approach to why they're working, compared to berberine that has all of these effects that can create this metabolic health.

For the blood glucose control, like Scott had mentioned it can be used for addressing insulin sensitivity and reducing blood sugar. It's so interesting because there are many studies. I had much fun preparing for this because there are many different hypotheses for how it's doing that. One of the main mechanisms and Scott mentioned this is that directly in the liver, it actually can reduce the liver's ability to actually create glucose or like create glucose and release it into the bloodstream. Because a mind-blowing fact-- I remember when I first learned this and it blew my mind because I think most people don't realize this, is that when people have high blood sugar levels most people think it is from what they're eating, which it is, but the actual, like 24/7 higher blood sugar levels, that's mostly being controlled by your liver. So, it's your liver creating glucose and releasing glucose.

Berberine actually inhibits that, it reduces enzymes directly in the liver that do that process, so then it can't happen. And interestingly, they have found that even though it helps insulin sensitivity, it doesn't seem to actually affect insulin production in the liver, so it's working independently of that which is really interesting. It can actually be directly in the gut reduce intestinal glucose absorption. So, just starting at the very beginning, it can stop the glucose from actually entering the body in the first place and that's by inhibiting a specific enzyme called a glucosidase activity. And that's an intestinal enzyme that actually digests carbs and converts them into more simpler sugars. Stopping that keeps you from actually absorbing some of those carbs in the first place. And then, beyond all of those enzymes and such it also can actually affect the transport of glucose throughout the body. And then on top of that, we can talk about the gut health potential of it. But a lot of researchers have hypothesized that its beneficial effects on the gut microbiome actually have a secondary effect of blood sugar control by the metabolic health state that is created from that so the anti-inflammatory state, the encouraging of short-chain fatty acid butyrate-producing bacteria when butyrate is created and gets into the bloodstream, it actually can help with glycemic control and the reduction of inflammation in the gut from endotoxin and LPS and the recruitment of macrophages and I realized I say all these words really fast and I know what they mean, but people might not know what they mean, so that's basically like the toxic byproducts that are created from "bad bacteria," because I realized saying good and bad bacteria can be a little bit simplistic. It reduces the inflammatory potential of the gut and inflammation is a key driver in metabolic issues. I can stop there a little bit. So, you want to jump in at all, Scott?

Scott Emmens: Well, first of all, great, I think it's a fantastic overview. And you can see how many different complex mechanisms berberine appears to have and why it has a broad base of positive impact across a number of organs and organ systems and then in particular blood sugar. I think we're going to learn a lot more as this molecule is again becoming, I shouldn't say molecule, this plant alkaloid is becoming hot on people's radar again. And I think at the end of the day, insulin is such a powerful hormone that when you can maintain blood glucose, which your audience is all about, the intermittent fasting audience really understands what blood glucose is about. But I don't know that we talk about the power of insulin and how powerful it is. I don't know if berberine lowers your fasting insulin and/or postprandial insulin meaning after a meal. My guess would be yes because it's lowering blood glucose with people that are already in normal ranges, well, then it's going to probably lower your insulin.

And we know in the presence of insulin, it's more difficult to burn fat, so it's all these different ways in which it slows the breakdown of glucose, it slows the liver's export or gluconeogenesis creating new sugar to push out into the bloodstream. All of the different mechanisms I think are fascinating and the more we learn about it, I think the more we're going to realize that this compound is going to have some very significant overall benefits for your wellbeing on a number of different organ systems.

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you said that. Two things to comment on, the insulin piece. I did find studies showing a reduction in insulin. It was once where they were comparing it to metformin and they were looking at the long-term effects of that. And then there are so many studies talking about how it increases insulin sensitivity, that is definitely happening. But I'm so glad you said that because we probably should start with a really important question or we should get to a really important question. Jennifer said, "What is it? Is it a plant, a fruit, etc.?" April said, "I know serrapeptase comes from silkworms, but where does berberine come from? When did people start using it?" I realized we were saying like we haven't really defined what it is. So, it is a plant alkaloid and Scott, would you like to talk about the plant that it comes from? And why we chose the one that we chose?

Scott Emmens: There are different forms of berberine based on the plant source that it comes from. The one that's being used in our Vedic Medicine in India and is usually the form that is used in most of the studies you're going to see and I hope I pronounce this right, but it's Berberis Aristata I believe and that's spelled B-E-R-B-E-R-I-S A-R-I-S-T-A-T-A and that is the form that we've used and that comes from the Indian barberry tree or shrub and it is a shrub that belongs to the genus Berberis and it is found specifically in India. And there are many different species of this shrub. And it's typically found in the Himalaya area of India and Nepal as well as other places in Sri Lanka and that is the form that we’ve utilized.

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Do you know when they started using berberine?

Scott Emmens: I'm going to take an educated guess-- Because our Vedic Medicine goes back a while, I'm going to take an educated guess and say 1500 years ago.

Melanie Avalon: 3000 BC.

Scott Emmens: Wow.

Melanie Avalon: To treat diarrhea and dysentery. That's like when I very first started, isn't that crazy? That has a long safety record, I will say [chuckles] which we can circle back to.

Scott Emmens: So, I was only off by 4000 years, not bad. [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon: It probably got upregulated more little bit later when it first appeared. And like I said, that was to treat diarrhea and dysentery. And just to circle back a little bit to the GI Health aspect to really fill that out. There's been many studies on berberine and its effect on gut bacteria. And actually, we have a question about this, so I'll just tie that in right now. For example, Nikki said, "I've heard people say not to take it daily because it changes your gut bacteria, what are your thoughts on that?" Morris said, "This would be my question. I always cycle on and off of it, but I know Melanie does not?" And then Karen said, "Berberine is used as an herbal antibacterial/antimicrobial, which I was going to get to, so I'm glad she said that." She said, "In addition to the blood sugar lowering properties that you are focusing on, I'm concerned about negative effects on beneficial gut bacteria with regular use of this product, can you speak to that?" I'm super happy that people were asking me about that. There have been a lot of studies looking at its effect on gut bacteria populations, and across the board it tends to increase the "Positive good bacteria, specifically Bacteroides and decrease the more inflammatory bacteria specifically Firmicutes." Because those are the two that if you know about gut microbiome, you might have heard of them before, but there's been a lot of other studies, for example, it's directly antibacterial against E. coli and clostridium difficile. It can increase, I mentioned this earlier, the short-chain fatty acid-producing bacteria, specifically and I don't know if I'm going to say these right. Phascolarctobacterium, Anaerotruncus, and Acidobacteria, those are all short-chain fatty acid-producing bacteria that can help with intestinal integrity. And it also may inhibit a certain type of bacteria that has been connected to obesity, which is super cool. And we can actually get into the obesity, body fat bit in a little bit. Basically, it seems to have a very beneficial effect on gut bacteria. I would not be personally and again you can make your own decisions and choices, but I personally am not concerned about the effect because it seems to have a very beneficial effect. I actually wonder, Scott, I'd be curious about your thoughts on this, I hypothesize that people who might sometimes be experiencing negative side effects in the beginning, it might be because they are playing with the populations of their bacteria and are experiencing a die-off effect because whenever you go after the bad guys, you can get negative side effects from that. It's a good thing because you are moving the needle towards more beneficial population. There might be some side effects in the interim. And, for example, I found there was one study looking at berberine compared to metformin and it found that all of the side effects only happened in the very beginning of the trial, and there's a longer-term trial. if you are experiencing gut issues in the beginning, I would suggest maybe lowering your dose so we can talk about this later and maybe sticking it out a little bit. But Scott, what are your thoughts?

Scott Emmens: I think your hypothesis is a pretty good one. Meaning anytime you're detoxing the body even if detoxing is a "Good Thing, " you know that you're killing off a lot of bad bacteria, and maybe you're not using a binding agent or you've got a lot of bad bacteria in your gut that could cause inflammation, the destruction of those can release toxins. Yeah, that could very well be, I think, that's a little speculative, but it's a reasonable theory. But what is pretty consistent is that the metformin side effects and the berberine side effects both seem to happen upfront. And the solution to that in the Glucophage world, is what doctors will say and many patients have probably heard this wording "Start low and go slow." if you are sensitive, you've never taken berberine before or you take two pills on day one and you feel a little bit of GI upset then back down to one capsule 500 mg once a day, kind of stabilize yourself and then you can work your way up. And that's really, I think, always goes for any medication or supplement, you always want the lowest effective dose. Now, we came out with the 500 mg, had a lot of discussion about what to recommend in terms of dosing, one to three capsules a day is where it landed because the majority of the data suggests that on the low end, 500 mg is right. On the higher end, 15 mg is correct. Many of the studies have been done with 500 mg three times a day, I don't think you want to take 1500 in one shot, really, you want to break that up over three doses. But that's where we found the sweet spot was. So, if people are experiencing side effects, I would say start with 500 and just slowly work your way up.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm so glad you said that because we had had obviously a lot of questions about dosaging, like Jennifer said, "How much can or should I take?" Claudia said, "How much to take? What's the dosage?" Anna Maria, "When is the best time to take it to optimize results?" Amy, "Is it best to cycle it or take it every day? Should one take it at the same time every day or time it more specifically to be ingested before you eat a potentially glucose-spiking meal?" Cheryl wanted to know "Do you take it with food or on an empty stomach?" And Nydia wanted to know "Does it break the fast?" Teresa also wanted to know "Is it something that you can take daily? I know Shawn Wells listed as one of his most recommended supplements. But I've heard Cynthia Thurlow say that she has people cycle it. I will put a link in the show notes, by the way to an episode I had with Shawn Wells on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. I adore Shawn and he is one of the go-to people in the supplement world, he's just a phenom when it comes to that, but yeah, to answer all of those questions, Scott just gave a really nice overview of the dosage and we thought long and hard about what dosage to do for it more. Again, going back to what we talked about in the beginning about the craziness with regulations. It's crazy how you have to like figure out what you can actually say on the label to get the dosage that you want. It's hard to describe. But basically, I had a very clear idea of what I wanted to say. And it had to go through Scott and like the legal team to get it on the label the way I wanted it.

Scott Emmens: That is correct. And I think, that's why we take those precautions because it's important for the public to make sure that what we're saying is in line with what is appropriate, but also to make sure that we're following all of the guidelines, guidance, and making sure that we are in compliance to that. That comes from 25 years of pharmaceutical lawyers pounding into me what I can't say. I want to make sure we do that, but on the other side, it's also what is it that we can say that will really make sure we're giving a clear specific guidance that is in the best alignment with what the data and the research suggest. And I think we got there and I think to your frustration, Melanie, I think a lot of people assume that the supplement world is a free cowboy world. But there are very stringent guidelines on labeling, claim that you make on that label, what you can say, what you can name it. And even down to like, the font size and how you list the ingredients and what size, certain ingredients have to be in the font size. I mean it gets very particular. So, again, going back to this, "What is GMP?" If you're following CFR 21, which is the regulations on how you label a supplement properly along with what this GMP mean, it's extensive and I think that's been one of the learning lessons that you have come across as well. How many things you have to do to make sure you've done it? But then again, how many other companies want to escape that edge that goes 75 and a 65 and make sure they don't get a ticket. And we'd rather go 65 and 65, then do the 75. And I think that is an interesting learning from a lot of people that we work with in this space, physicians [unintelligible [00:39:42] and so forth.

Melanie Avalon: Again, just another reason I've been grateful to work with you because you get all of this and I have learned so much, and it's just really been a really amazing incredible experience. So yeah, the dosage we landed on that we mentioned is based on the majority of the study. Probably the majority of the studies are 0.5 g or 500 mg, those are comfortable three times a day. But it ranges from, actually in the studies it's not normally on the lower end, but it can be, so I wanted it to have it, a minimum of like 500 mg up to 2 g, which seems to be the upper limit. That's the way we had it working on the bottle so that it could cover that range. I will say-- because we got a question because I had Megan Ramos on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, she's amazing, definitely listen to that interview with her. She shared a negative experience she had with berberine experimenting with it during pregnancy, I think.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, that's a no, no.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and she was taking 2 g which again is the upper limit of that. For example, Lucy said, "Megan Ramos mentioned a few times that she was very sick with a negative reaction to berberine when she was on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. I would like to know the main contraindications for berberine and how to avoid similar situations." Again, in that situation, revisiting that episode, Megan was taking the upper limit and while she was pregnant, I would start not at the upper limit, not take it during pregnancy or work with your doctor. So, definitely, you just want to be aware of all factors involved.

Scott Emmens: So, here are the contraindications, there're a few but they're fairly rare except for pregnancies. The first one is, if you're on Cyclosporin-A, you do not want to take berberine because it can have an interaction with the CYP43A for enzyme in the liver. Then you also do not want to take berberine with warfarin or thiopental, I think I'm saying that right, thiopental or tolbutamide because it can displace them from increasing the blood and increase the blood toxicity of those particular drugs. Warfarin has what's called the very narrow therapeutic index. Some of these other drugs do as well. If you increase just their bioavailability a tad or decrease it a tad it either will become toxic or can become ineffective. Those are contraindications. And then macrolide antibiotics such as azithromycin and clarithromycin may also interact, they're not contraindicated, but they are certainly something that you do not want to take berberine with unless you absolutely had to, based on a physician recommendation. And lastly, we do not want to take berberine if you are pregnant, that's contraindicated as well.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I'm glad we could speak to that as far as does it break a fast? No, it will support your fast if anything. I actually don't take it the way most people take it. Well, first of all, I'm not eating three times a day. I'm not taking it three times a day before meals, I actually take it in the morning in the fasted state. And then I actually don't take it later before my meal. Although I probably should experiment with doing that come to think of it that would probably be beneficial. The reason I was doing that was I was just seeing the biggest spike in my blood sugar in the early part of the day, but you can really experiment and find what works for you. But typically, people are taking it before meals. Yeah, do you have any thoughts about that, Scott?

Scott Emmens: If you have a CGM, you want to experiment with that or if you take your blood sugar through another means, I think you want to experiment with that. For me, personally, I'm going to take one probably on an empty stomach starting when I start my new regime in January. Typically, when I take berberine, it's going to be about an hour to an hour and a half before my meal because I want to get the berberine inside my intestines, I want it to be metabolized and we're talking a little bit about the metabolites and the active metabolites of berberine. I think about an hour to an hour and a half prior to my meal to ensure that the maximum blood plasma level is there and that the metabolites are beginning to get into my system. That to me seems reasonable. Now, if you have GI upset, it's probably going to be the best to take it closer to your meal. I think you want to experiment with that both from a what's most comfortable for you? And then if you have the ability to measure your blood glucose, what's working best for you? For example, there's someone who owns a CGM company, he has a podcast. I've just listened to his podcast in preparation for the show and he had some limited success with berberine pre-meals. 

Now keep in mind, this is someone who is on a very restricted diet, he understands insulin, he's probably already in a low-insulin, low-glycemic state to begin with. He didn't see a lot of change with berberine before meals, but when he took it for the fasting insulin in the evening, he noticed dramatic decrease in his fasting insulin in the mornings. And that speaks to the liver part of gluconeogenesis because your liver's job with gluconeogenesis is to keep you from going into hypoglycemia while you sleep. And when you are diabetic or you have blood sugar issues that are beginning, your liver might be getting the wrong signal thinking, "Hey, we don't have enough glucose." So, it's pushing glucose out even though your glucose is already very high. So, based on the various ways that seems berberine works, I think each person's body type and where they're at, it's going to have a different impact, my personal recommendation for me is going to be to try to start taking it on an empty stomach, hour and a half before meals is what I currently do. And then I might experiment with a pre-evening dose.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad that you mentioned body fat. I know you're talking about it in a little bit different context. But I do want to talk briefly about the super cool effect that berberine can potentially have on body composition especially because I know a lot of people-- one of their main goals, possibly why they're listening to this podcast is for body composition effects. And there's been a lot of studies looking at berberine's effect on body re-composition with or without weight loss. So, it seems that in particular berberine can actually reduce the levels of inflammatory fat specifically, so visceral fat is a type of fat that is found surrounding the organs. And it's actually the type of fat linked to metabolic health issues compared to like subcutaneous fat, which is found underneath the skin and which is considered to actually be more benign when it comes to health issues. So, berberine has been found in some studies, it leads to weight loss specifically reducing visceral fat and in some studies, there's actually not weight loss, but there is a shift in the type of body fat, which is super cool. Basically, it's making your body more healthy when it comes to fat. Mice treated with berberine have actually been found to have shrunken adipocytes. Basically, their fat cells are smaller which is super cool. Other studies basically propose that the anti-obesity activity of berberine can involve in part not only decreased size of lipid droplets but actually also the number of lipid droplets. There's a study suggesting that berberine actually increases thermogenesis in brown and white tissue.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, that was very interesting to me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, basically increasing burning calories in your fat tissue, which is very cool, because you really want to stack especially with our modern diet environment, you want to do everything you can to stack the cards in your favor, to have a healthy metabolic profile when it comes to body fat. And it can be hard to do that, especially when there are cellular mechanisms involved. And anything that can really affect that, like berberine, can definitely be something to try. It can also discourage the creation of new fat cells "super cool." And that's actually by affecting transcripts and factors that are involved in creating fat cells in the first place. And then, for example, a review of five studies that encompassed 1078 women and you know I love when we got studies in women, found that it did indeed induce a redistribution of fat tissue, specifically reducing that inflammatory visceral fat that I spoke of. And speaking of the inflammatory potential, not only is it reducing the amount of inflammatory fat, it actually may make fat in general less inflammatory by reducing the recruitment of macrophages to fatty tissue. So, macrophages are basically-- for these things that go in-- and you can think of them like Pac-Man, they go and gobble up things. They're good, we want them in our bodies. They deal with getting rid of waste and fighting pathogens and things like that. But when you have an overabundance of them, it can be a very inflammatory state. And a lot of people's resistant fat, when people really just struggle to burn fat. It can be because the fat itself has become inflammatory, and it becomes resistant to fat burning.

Scott Emmens: Are you referring to brown fat versus white fat in adipose tissue?

Melanie Avalon: It found that it activated thermogenesis in both of them which is super cool. Did you find one showing that it increased brown?

Scott Emmens: Yes, I found a few studies that say that berberine promotes the recruitment and activation of brown adipose tissue in mice and in humans, which was pretty interesting. There was another study about berberine-activated thermogenesis in both white and brown adipose tissue, but one of the things I thought was so interesting was that it does seem it can help your body promote brown fat, thus thermogenesis and brown fat is packed with mitochondria. It keeps you from shivering, that's why babies have a lot of brown fat versus white fat, white fat that being the inflammatory version, brown fat being more of what they call an activated fat which has its own mitochondria in it and really actually is more of a positive energy-burning fat than white fat is. So, that I found really interesting. And even so to get to your point, if you don't lose weight, if you're just shifting that fat from the more inflammatory to the less inflammatory, more highly energetic fat, I think you're going to reap a lot of benefits.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad you said that, you really revealed that you haven't a grasp of what's going on because brown fat and white fat like Scott mentioned, brown fat is really high in mitochondria, it's activated by cold is something that activates it, it actually helps you lose weight which is ironic because it is fat, but it creates heat. And it basically wastes energy. But the thing that you said, Scott that I mean, I already knew this, but maybe made it aware that you actually really know what you're talking about. I think a lot of people think brown fat and because they associate it with cold, they think "Oh, that's like shivering," but it's not, it actually keeps you from shivering because the alternative to brown fat is to shiver, basically.

Scott Emmens: Exactly, and do you know how I know that, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:  No.

Scott Emmens: Ice baths have taught me that. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I was going to say cryotherapy.

Scott Emmens: Yes, I am an ice bath guy. And I'm about to embark on a January 1 through February Polar Plunge for mental health benefits. I am currently back in training filling my tub up with giant hunks of ice and getting in there for 10 minutes or so to adapt. And I discovered the benefit of brown fat as I was really-- This goes back to 2016 when I first began doing ice bath, which by the way changed my life in so many ways. But that's when I discovered what brown fat was, why it was important and how I adapted to the cold over time by creating more of this brown fat. I mean, the first time I got in an ice bath, it was 60 seconds of pure shivering and agony. Three months later, I could sit in there for 8, 10 minutes at 40 degrees temperature of Fahrenheit and not shiver at all. In fact, one time I stayed in long because I hadn't shivered. I did get a little hypothermic, so that's how I learned about brown fat and white fat was through ice bath.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's super cool. I remember Scott and I met. When did we meet? Spring of 2021?

Scott Emmens: I think you're right. I think it was April of 2021.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because we launched serrapeptase in 2021.

Scott Emmens: November. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that was one of our first conversations way back in the day.

Scott Emmens: First conversation was ice bath and then followed by a lot of discussion on infrared, near-infrared and therapy and saunas, which I'm also a huge fan of, by the way.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, so many things. One last health benefit-related thing I think we should talk about, especially with this show one of the reasons people often do fasting, well, it's not the reason, but something we've talk about a lot with the benefits of fasting is how fasting stimulates something called an AMPK, which is basically a fuel sensing enzyme. It plays a key role in how our bodies use energy and it's activated by stressors like calorie restriction, fasting, and exercise. It is associated with so many health benefits like you want AMPK activation, it helps with longevity, metabolic health, inflammation, so many things. Berberine has found to be a very potent stimulator of AMPK, which is awesome. And then another fasting-related thing we talk all the time on here about autophagy which is activated by fasting as well. And it's where the body actually goes down and breaks down problematic proteins and recycles them. It's like a cleanse on the cellular level. It's very, very important for metabolic health and longevity. And berberine has also been found to be a stimulator of autophagy, so that is awesome.

Scott Emmens: People underestimate the importance of healthy autophagy getting rid of cells or what they might call zombie cells or mitochondria that need to go because they'll contaminate the other healthy mitochondria around it. I think autophagy is a tremendous benefit. And obviously, the AMPK there's a plethora of data on all the various things that impacts across your longevity and health span. One of the things that I don't think we touched on but, I know came up in literature quite a bit, is the positive benefits of berberine on the liver. And I'm a big guy on liver. I think if your liver is not functioning right, if it's not making bile, if it's not digesting your toxins properly, you're going to end up in trouble. And so, to me, I think that the liver benefits of berberine have probably underestimated at this point. There's not as much data and studies as I'd like to see. But there is definitely data to suggest that it works to support liver enzyme health, liver function in the presence of toxins, and I think that is really important. When you look at the overall effect of what berberine is doing to your point earlier, it's working on AMPK, it's working on glucose, it's working on your gut microbiome, it's working on your liver and your liver's function. And I think all of these things combined lead to, in my mind, one conclusion which is, there's something about this particular product that allows your body to function in an optimal level while keeping the blood glucose down, supporting mitochondria, supporting liver health and I think it all ties back to, if blood glucose and insulin are lower, then you're going to have a cascade of positive effects across your body. And I think that is why CGMs have become so popular as people realize that if they can keep their blood glucose at a reasonably modest normal level without having huge spikes throughout the day, that overall is going to lead to a longer and healthier lifespan. The data on that is pretty convincing. That's where I think berberine shines as this molecule plant alkaloid that just has so many benefits. So back to the liver, there is a couple of studies on liver enzymes and also on liver function. I would encourage people to take a look at that research. Again, of course, always speak to your doctor if you're taking anything for liver disease.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad you mentioned that as well because that actually goes really well with one other health benefit I want to touch on and it also involves the liver, so glad we're talking about it. And that is the role of berberine on cholesterol levels and lipid panels. Margaret said for example, "Is it okay to take it long term to help lower cholesterol" and we can speak to the long-term aspect in a bit but just as far as the cholesterol side of things. Not only does it directly reduces the absorption of lipids into circulation from your gut, because the whole caveat there is dietary cholesterol is not necessarily the primary driver of problematic cholesterol levels. It's more at least in my opinion, the creation of endogenous cholesterol and what's happening with that. And the effects in the liver on cholesterol and lipids is-- I mean, there's so many so.

It can promote the liver's LDL receptor mRNA expression to beneficially modulate LDL levels, it can directly inhibit the creation of cholesterol and triglycerides in liver cells. In rodent trials it's been found to inhibit NAFLD, nonalcoholic fatty liver disease in mice fed a high-fat diet, which is huge and in human trials have actually found that berberine supplementation can reduce liver enzymes in patients with type 2 diabetes and so going back to what Scott was saying about liver health and it can also reduce fatty acid synthesis directly in the liver and a lot of transcripts and factors related to fatty liver. And for example, there was one study in humans and not only did they find decreased body weight and BMI in those on berberine, but what was super cool about the study is it had people do berberine and then have a washout period where they were not taking the berberine and then go back on the berberine. And they found that their triglycerides, their cholesterol, their LDL, and their HDL all improved based on when they were like taking the berberine. When they were on the berberine, it improved. When they went off, it went away. And then when they went on again, it approved again. Lots of potential benefits there with cholesterol and lipids.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, I totally agree. And the one part I'd like to focus on that is with triglycerides. Having been in the diabetes universe for 15 years or so, one of the things that I spoke with when I worked with endocrinologists, those are the specialists that treat diabetes, the thing that the cutting-edge endocrinologist would tell you is if you see someone that has a relatively high fasting glucose, but they are not diabetic, but their triglycerides are above normal. He's like that person is going to have diabetes if they don't change their lifestyle in a few years. Triglycerides are the leading indicator like "Hey, you're on your way to diabetes if you don't change this." Your body is basically taking this sugar and trying to figure out what it's going to do with it because it can't do something. This isn't the scientific way to say this, but basically, your triglycerides are this canary in the coal mine, that if they're high, but your blood glucose hasn't quite broken, technically the diabetic limit, you're probably on your way there. That's something you really want to look out for [the fact that it does have these studies that show that it can have a positive impact and support the body's ability to reduce triglycerides really says something to me about the way that it's working for blood glucose.

Melanie Avalon: And I think that actually ties in nicely to something that I want to talk about, which is this specific form that we chose because we got a lot of questions about dihydroberberine. for example, Teresa said, "She wants to know the difference between berberine versus dihydroberberine." Erin said, the same thing, "What's the difference between those two?" Suzie said, "What is the difference between them and what is the best?" Paul said that "He actually did better taking dihydroberberine that he didn't have the bloatation and the gassy issues?" And then Amanda said that --Oh, this is something that we can speak to the absorption levels. Amanda said, "Mike Mutzel talks about not using the highly absorbable kind," which presumably, I'm assuming is the dihydroberberine, as that's how berberine is effective in the gut by not being highly absorbable. Just speaking to what you were just talking about Scott with all of these over-encompassing effects and many things that are going on, shall we talk about? Because we debated for a long time about? Well, more so in the beginning, I think once we got to an understanding about it, we felt pretty good. But we were looking at? Should we do a berberine or should we do a dihydroberberine? Dihydroberberine is a newer form of berberine, at least from being like sold and marketed, which is said to be more absorbable and said to have a more potent effect on lowering blood sugar? We chose not to do that. Scott, would you like to explain a little bit why?

Scott Emmens: At first, it was two things. I think this goes back to my experience with prodrugs and metabolites prodrugs and then also looking at the data. Of the 30 years' worth of research that we have a good grasp on and there's a ton in the last 15 years, all of it is on berberine or the vast, vast majority I should say. There is very little data on dihydroberberine beyond just either its increase of "plasma level," but plasma level is not really what separates Berberine from the pack. I'll give you an analogy and tell me if it's apt Melanie. But with CBD, for example, "If you get a pure 100% isolated CBD, you may have no effect from it because it's not just the CBD, it's the CBD, CBG, it's the other cannabinoids inside that product that give it an entourage effect along with terpenes and other things that create that. Then if you add the other factor into metabolites from a prodrug is a drug that goes in as an inactive substance. And then your liver converts it into an active substance. Well, berberine happens to have no less than four active metabolites and as many, in some reports as 17 metabolites. And we don't know what those metabolites do, but it's pretty clear, and here's a direct quote from an article. Let me just make sure I get the title. "This is the metabolism of berberine and its contribution to the pharmacological effects." 

And then let me read this quote because this wasn't something we had focused on a ton in the beginning, but we discussed it, but the more we did the research, the more evident it became that there's something unique about it. "Even though berberine possesses a low oral bioavailability, it has exhibited marked biological activities in vivo which is in people and concentrations of its major metabolites such as berberrubine, thalifendine, I'm going to say these wrong, I'll butcher these names, demethyleneberberine, and jatrorrhizine, that is butcher of those names, but they are relatively high. And then it says, "These reports indicate that the metabolites of berberine may be active constituents which are representative of the biological activities of berberine in vivo and I mean that sums it up that there is something unique about berberine despite this, "Low bioavailability." Study after study shows that it works and then now we're getting more and more studies that are coming in. And our ability to measure these metabolites that are coming in active tablets, meaning your livers convert it into a new active form of berberine. They are actually also stored in your various organs, like your liver, in your kidneys, in your brain and other places that allow for these other properties of berberine or that we suspect based on the data allow for these other properties of berberine. By isolating one particular compound, yes, you may get less side effects, but you may not get all of the benefits of berberine. And I think between that and the fact that the data is very consistent on berberine, says berberine is the way to go. Now, we might decide to do a dihydroberberine in the future for some other specific reason, but if we're looking to get the maximum benefit across the spectrum of berberine, then we wanted to use the whole berberine plant.

Melanie Avalon: I think it's so interesting, Scott found, I don't know if it's the one that you were just speaking about, or if it was a different one. But you found this really great article, which basically speaks to this issue that people will say about berberine, which I find really ironic because people will say it's not very absorbable, like an issue basically, and that we need to fix it. But it's just really ironic, because all of the studies for so long and then it's been used for thousands of years, have been working with it in this form, so clearly, it's working in this form.

Scott Emmens: And then all of the data is in this form. When they saw the studies we read to you today, all of the data we've read to you today is from berberine. And so, you could take a chance that yes because it's more "Absorbable" and less impactful in your gut. Well, okay, maybe that works, maybe that doesn't just because it's higher in your plasma doesn't mean that it's high or concentrated in your organs, which may be the very benefit we're getting. I think you're right, it is ironic that we think we have to fix a product.

Melanie Avalon: It's pretentious.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, we have to fix a product or a natural alkaloid that has decades, in fact, let's go back to your earlier number of 4500 years of use. So yeah, I'm pretty confident berberine is the way to go. And for those folks that do have jabs and again, I would say, take it closer with your meal at first, start low and go slow. So, try one, just take one a day for a while, get your body used to it. You had mentioned maybe it's a detoxification process, go low and start slow. But yeah, I think you're exactly right. To say that this other form is better with no real data, I don't think is the right way to go. Is dihydroberberine, does it have some advantages? It very well could. But when we're talking about all of the data, and all of the studies, and these active metabolites, this is the product that I feel most comfortable taking.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's the key thing to focus on, which I'm not saying at all, that creating an isolated form of anything might have more of a benefit for maybe a certain goal in mind, like you might be able to finesse it to, have a specific intended effect. And maybe with dihydroberberine, maybe people, but again I would just need to see more literature and experience with people. But maybe it does work better for some people, which is great. But what's interesting is often rather than saying-- when people pause at dihydroberberine, for example, often rather than saying, this is another form of berberine that may be more beneficial for certain people for certain goals. It's positive, like berberine isn't very absorbable, they are like discard. They discard the entirety of the berberine literature, which makes no sense. And we do this with other things. We do this with turmeric and curcumin. People will say that we need to take our curcumin supplement because it's not very bioavailable in turmeric, when people have been using turmeric for the benefits for so long, people do it with resveratrol and wine. It's a very common thing that people do.

Scott Emmens: Or like a polyphenol versus an individual phenol. And that's why I love this one specific sentence, which is even though berberine possesses a relatively low oral bioavailability, it has exhibited marked biological activity in vivo. And the concentrations of its metabolites such as I butchered those, indicate the metabolites have an active constituent that represents significant biological activities of berberine. And in fact, berberine studies have revealed metabolites have shown similar bioactivity and it goes on and on. And there is something unique about it, the way that it is absorbed is not directly correlated to plasma. And in fact, it might be within this article or the other one that I had sent you, it says that, "Part of the reason that the plasma levels in berberine aren't high is because it's getting pushed into the organs where it needs to be and that was mind-blowing to me.

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Also related to our whole creation process. We had that question at the beginning about dihydroberberine versus berberine. And then when we decided on berberine, it was time to actually create it and Scott. Shall we tell listeners a little bit about our journey? [chuckles] 

Scott Emmens: Journey is a good way to put it, [chuckles] would you like me to start?

Melanie Avalon: Sure.

Scott Emmens: So, breaking the fourth wall a little bit, Melanie had some very specific criteria, as usual, all legitimate. And we began this pursuit for the perfect berberine. And one of the berberines that we looked at that had this really great story in this great, it's organic from the Himalayan Mountains. And then there was another one from the western part of the country, yada-yada, handpicked, etc. However, when we tested those berberines, they came back with both impurities and their potency level was remarkably low. And then I did a little more research and found that these companies also had some FDA warnings. There's a thing in the FDA when you have a GMP-certified facility, it's not just about the source of where you get the product. The most important thing is, have you done the four critical components of testing, which is strength, identity, purity, and compliance composition? And what we do at MD Logic Health and this is why I think we are so selective about who we partner with in terms of suppliers and also co-branding partners such as Melanie is, we want to be the best of the best, just like Melanie. What we discovered was that these other berberines not only failed to meet the specifications that were required but that also did not meet GMP, meaning the facilities themselves had multiple 43 notices or 402 requirements, which basically means that they were citation with significant issues in terms of their facilities GMP. Some folks, well where's it sourced from?

Well, that's important except the most important thing is have you done the correct analysis to protect yourself against heavy metals, purity, identity, strength, toxins, etc. And when we get a product, in this case, berberine, we quarantine everything that comes into our facility. It has been tested before it is allowed to come in for those four things back to what is the identity? What is the strength? Or the amount of active ingredients? What is purity? Meaning, are there toxic metals? Does it meet all of the standards that we're referring to? And is it meeting all of the compliant FDA requirements for purity, potency, etc. Those four things are done before that product even comes into our doors. Unfortunately, two of those products failed to meet our standards, which obviously disappointed us, but we were not going to allow faulty product or subpar product into the process. And when I went to look back at the companies that were utilizing these products, what I discovered is they had multiple 43s including but not limited to various toxins, lack of doing the standard studies, and in shocking fashion rat feces in a number of their herbs.

Melanie Avalon: Was it in the herbs or in the facility?

Scott Emmens: It was in the facility. I don't know whether it was in the herb or whether it was contaminated in the facility, or how but it was tested and found in the facility, meaning that multiple of their herbs had rat feces in them. And this is a pretty well-known brand, which we're not going to mention. But the fact of the matter is that they had obviously either not quarantined it and brought it in with the feces or the feces was in the facility and they hadn't done their due diligence on making sure that the facility was properly protected against those types of things. When a company says they're GMP certified that's one thing. But they need to be following all of those GMP tests. The reason that we quarantine the product before we bring it in, is if that product is contaminated you run the risk of contaminating your entire line. That's why it is quarantined and tested prior to its entry into our facility. 

Once it's tested and it passes all of those tests, we then bring it into the facility and then we do again, what's called batch testing. And we retest that same product after it's been manufactured to make sure it still meets all those specifications and has the amount of milligrams we'd say it has, it has the proper ingredients, and it still meets all of the same parameters to make sure that it didn't get infected or contaminated along the way. it's not just important to do it after you've created it, it's important to do it before it enters the facility. It's important to make sure you follow all of the criteria that GMP lays out in terms of where you store your product, how high you store it, what temperature you store it at, all of these things add up to what's called good manufacturing process. It's more than just testing for purity, strength, identity, and compliance. It's also, "Did you do the proper testing on how long it's going to last on the shelf, for example? What temperature did you expose it to? Did you have a CoA from the supplier of the ingredient and then did you also subsequently test it?" Some people will take the CoA from the supplier as the gold standard and then not do their own testing. That's not the way to go, because they may have gotten one sample to pass that test. But they can give you a different version or a different sample or a different supplier. And sometimes companies will change suppliers without then doing a retest of the ingredient. And then of course is not kosher either. You've got to make sure that you're doing GMP, the way GMP is written. And that is why there's a difference between us and folks that aren't following those same procedures.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so I actually just pulled up the warning letter that you had found about that company because I wanted to see exactly what it had said. And this wasn't for their actual berberine, it was for the company in general but their manufacturing plant basically. And for example, this is direct from the FDA warning letter. It says, "Tree nut shells, peanut shell, corn, rodent feces, and seed foreign material were detected in their ashwagandha." "Tree nut shells, glass, hard plastic, and rodent feces were detected in their bilberry fruit." And there are a lot of other things as well. Scott, this is so shocking, so like ashwagandha that they're talking about, they had rodent feces in it as well as all of these allergens. If you go to their Amazon page, there ashwagandha has 506 ratings, 4.5 stars, it says that it's organic, it says it's free from gluten, dairy, and soy. The other pieces in this warning letter say that they found wheat in some of their other-- "Wait, wait, wait, sorry, I missed that." Wheat and rock were also found in their ashwagandha. So, "Ah", listeners, literally, so like you can go to Amazon and get this ashwagandha 506 ratings, 4.5 stars, it says "It's organic," it says "It's gluten, dairy and soy free." And when they tested this, when the FDA tested this, they found gluten, rat feces, and a myriad of other things. This is just so problematic. This is so problematic.

Scott Emmens: It is. I want to make the statement that I think this is the more rare companies, but it does happen, it does exist that you can have a GMP facility with great ratings and a decent brand name and still have-- I mean, I think those are pretty significant issues.

Melanie Avalon: And this isn't like some small-- like they have a lot of reviews on Amazon and a lot of products.

Scott Emmens: Correct? So, bigger doesn't mean better. What means better is, "Did you follow GMP and what is your track record with the FDA?" And we have an immaculate track record. And I think that speaks volumes. But the reason we have it is we just believe in following the procedure to make sure that like our families take our products, I take AvalonX products, I take MD Logic products, I give my family MD Logic products, I would never want to have skipped a process or a step. Because those processes are put in place for very good reasons. And most people aren't aware of those because they're not readily public-- it's not readily public information. But I think I remember I got a five shock emoji face from you when I sent you that link.

Melanie Avalon: Listeners, friends, do your due diligence when you choose the supplements that you choose to put in your body. We found a source that we felt really good about with the testing and we tested it for purity and potency. But then we wanted to go one step further because this was my first supplement that was an herb. My previous supplements have been serrapeptase and magnesium. We had the certification from the source that it was free of pesticides. But it was really, really important to me that we do third-party testing on that, just like we did the third-party testing for the purity and the potency because again it's an herb, it's being grown. That took a while because it took a while to find, what was the word like a company that would do the test?

Scott Emmens: It was a third-party laboratory that would do pesticide testing as well as other testing. But we chose at that point, we had all the other testing, we had done internal heavy metal testing twice, internal purity, internal identification and compliance, so at that point we really just wanted to make sure is this was pesticide-free by all the definitions that are set by the US Government and then some. And we set that out for a third-party pesticide test.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, and I'm so happy we found a company that we really like to do that and it came back all clean, all good. And I should tell them the nuance of it. Another reason it took so long to find a company is most of the companies would just give you a blanket, like a yes/no about whether or not it was below a certain level. But I wanted it to be quantified. [chuckles] I wanted to know if it was there, like how much was it there? It took a while to find a company that could work with us to do that, but we did. And we got the green light, it's all good, no pesticides.

Scott Emmens: It really is. And I'll tell you, I would not take any other berberine than this one based on the fact that we know the source is good. We've triple-tested it in-house for the four cores, which is purity, heavy metals, etc., identity, purity, strength, and potency. So, at this point, we feel like we've got a great berberine that's pesticide free, heavy metal free, toxin free, mold free at the right dosage, and in a glass bottle and on top of that with no stearates, palmitates, or other heavy chemical anticaking or filling agents. It's the purest best berberine I think that you're going to find in terms of literal testing and its final ingredients.

Melanie Avalon: I always have to ask you Scott, its filler and lubrication agent?

Scott Emmens: Yes. there are two things that people should be familiar with it. There's what they call lubrication or anticaking. Because when you put these products through these machines to put them in little tiny capsules, it requires some lubrication agent. And that's typically a magnesium stearate, silicon dioxide, or they'll call it silicon, which is silicon dioxide because that FDA allows you to say silicon versus silicon dioxide, little euphemism or a calcium palmitate. I'm okay, I take products with magnesium stearate. I don't think it's the end of the world. But if you're taking 15 capsules a day, you want to get it as pure as possible. And I think in this day and age, we're already exposed to so many things, we want to make sure that it's as clean as it can be. So yes, this product is free of magnesium stearates, that is an anti-caking agent which means it prevents it from blocking up the machines, which is also why we have to do small batches and why it's a little pricier because in order to shut down an entire line or have a dedicated line that has no lubricant or non-magnesium stearate/palmitate lubricant, you've got to have these smaller batches or a dedicated machine. And that's anti-caking. They're called lubricants and then there're fillers which are typically rice or cellulose or something else that you may or may not want. So typically, when we do a filler and we only do that when we have to whether that's an AvalonX product or MD Logic product, we use most benign possible filler there is which is methylcellulose, organic grown, human use, basically methylcellulose, which is like tree bark or fiber. And the only reason you do it is that the capsule doesn't shake loose. In other words, if the capsule size is-- you've got to get the capsule full, otherwise it's going to shake loose and the capsule doesn't feel right or fit right.

The anti-caking agents prevent the product from blocking up the machine, clogging up the machine, and keeping the product flowing into the capsules properly. But a lot of folks don't want magnesium stearate, hence why we go the extra mile to do two things which is A, use either no anti-caking or a natural anti-caking agent that is either beneficial for you or neutral or none. And then on the filler, we use either no filler or we use a filler that is methylcellulose or something super benign or beneficial rather than things like rice flour or other things that people can be allergic to.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so the berberine containing a very small amount of monolaurin, which is exciting because people will actually take monolaurin for its health benefits. But I don't like to emphasize it because it's not like-- it's barely in there. But yeah, so it's nice to have something that could be potentially beneficial in there as well.

Scott Emmens: And the monolaurin, in this case, would be the anti-caking agent. But to your point, some people take monolaurin as an actual supplement for health, for digestive health. And I think it pairs really well with berberine as I take it for digestive health in terms of its benefits.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. But I really want to emphasize, it's not like monolaurin is in there as a supplement like you're barely getting it. It's more just to point out that it's benign, like it's nontoxic.

Scott Emmens: Exactly, you're talking about a minuscule amount of monolaurin, so it's [unintelligible [01:28:27] supplementation of it. It's really just because this is either beneficial or neutral versus some people who feel that the stearates can be negative.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly, so yeah, I'm so excited because it's almost here. No, no, no, no when this releases it will have just launched. So friends, if you want to get this berberine we are having an amazing launch special that is through the holidays, through December 31 right like through the--

Scott Emmens: Correct, it starts on December 16 and goes all the way through the holidays through December 31. Perfect time for your January 1st New Year's resolutions and there's a tremendous discount that Melanie will have on her website. So, Melanie, I'll let you take it from there.

Melanie Avalon: During this launch special, you can get 15% off of one bottle or 25% which is amazing, off of two or more bottles. And that is just during the special and/or while supplies last. Stock up now. That we'll be at avalonx.us. Again, avalonx.us, 15% off of one bottle, 25% off of two or more bottles through the end of 2022. Beyond that, some other resources, if you want to stock up or get my other supplements, serrapeptase and magnesium, you can use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON that will get you 10% off or if you would like 20% off code, you can text AVALONX, just the word AVALONX, you will not believe how many people text, not AVALONX. They text like, they're like, "Hi, give me the 20% off code?" Like no, no, no that's not how this works, the computer can only read AVALONX.

Scott Emmens: It's a computer. Yes.

Melanie Avalon: It's a computer. So, text AVALONX To 877-861-8318 that will sign you up for text updates and will give you a 20% off code. You can also get email updates at avalonx.us/emaillist. And then both that 20% off code and the 10% off code MELANIEAVALON are also good at MD Logic Health, Scott's main company, they have an array of-- how many products do you have, Scott?

Scott Emmens: Right now, we have about 40-something skews and products. And we are probably going to have somewhere closer to 65 mid 2023, we got a very aggressive pipeline of either cutting-edge and/or newly formed versions of products that we feel like it would be beneficial.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, so that's super, super exciting. So, definitely check them out. I know one of the supplements we've talked about a lot on this show is your melatonin. I know people are really liking that one.

Scott Emmens: Fanfare for sure.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, as well as Scott's collagen.

Scott Emmens: Thanks for mentioning both. The melatonin we reformulated by the way which is the exact same melatonin formulation, but we took out the rice and we took out-- I think it had a little mag stearate, so we removed that. So now that is an even more pure, more clean version of our Melatonin Max. And yes, our Marine Collagen is doing really well. People love it because you are getting 13 g of collagen plus you are getting what they call co-factors to create collagen or collagen synthesis in your body. People underestimate that part because you can take as much collagen as you want without vitamin C, manganese, zinc, vitamin A, and vitamin C. You cannot convert those amino acids into collagens. So, you can drink collagen all day, sort of making a cake with a ton of powder, but if you don’t use a little bit of sugar and butter, you are just going to have a giant flour cake.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, so I can guarantee you this collagen was Scott's baby, kind of like the way I am with my supplements. If you are looking for collagen supplement. This is the one that you want for sure. If you want to go through my site to get that, the link is melanieavalon.com/mdlogic and again the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off sitewide. As well as that 20% off coupon code that you by texting AVALONX To 877-861-8318. And again, stock up on berberine before the special ends.

Scott Emmens: Well Melanie, I've never been so excited for one of your launches as I am for berberine. I feel like your audience is going to love this. I feel like this is going to be a tremendous product for your fan base but most importantly, I think now having done three products with you and having had multiple discussions on your future products I feel like I need to assure your fans that you do not let a single thing go. Every single thing that goes into this product and does not go into this product. You have your eyes on, the research on, and I think together we are making a fantastic team and even more importantly great products that are really healthy and great for people and I couldn’t be more thrilled to launch berberine with you, so this is fantastic.

Melanie Avalon: I am just so thrilled and honored and excited and grateful as well. Listeners, working with Scott has been the dream partnership and I am just so grateful that I can finally do exactly what I wanted to do with the supplements and make them for myself and for everybody else, so I am so happy. Actually, this is a good way to end literally just right now Scott, you know how you were mentioning earlier the person at the CGM company who was sharing his experience on the podcast. He actually literally just emailed me because I had emailed him to tell him I was making a berberine. Would you like to hear what he said about berberine?

Scott Emmens: I would love to hear what he said. This is like serendipity.

Melanie Avalon: I know this is like in real life like real-time. [chuckles]

Scott Emmens: It's real-time and it's happening at the moment.

Melanie Avalon: Complete third party. All I did was I told him I was making a berberine supplement. So, he said, "Berberine is a great idea of all the supplements I've tested for glucose regulation, berberine has had the most significant impact and our internal staff experiments confirmed my anecdotal observations." One cool thing to test with berberine would be proper dosing. Most use berberine as a pre-prandial taking 500 to 1000 mg 20 minutes before meals. I tried that and it didn’t work for me." That's what he was saying, Scott. "A smaller camp including myself takes 500 mg twice daily morning and evening. While it did take a few weeks to see results, I saw an overall decrease in my own fasting glucose on that regimen." So that's a nice little testimonial and I think it really speaks to when you guys get your berberine you are going to need to find the way it works for you specifically.

Scott Emmens: That is a great way to end. I think that's serendipity.

Melanie Avalon: I think so. Well, this has been absolutely amazing and Scott you are going to have to come back for all of our future product launches. I hope you are down with that.

Scott Emmens: I can't wait. I look forward to any questions, comments from the fans. I'm starting to feel like a fan and a welcome member of the family of the IF Podcast. So, thank you so much for having me again, Melanie, I look forward to us speaking again.

Melanie Avalon: You too and this will have already happened, but have a Happy Thanksgiving.

Scott Emmens: That's right, you too.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Scott Emmens: Bye, bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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Welcome to Episode 295 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 295 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished beef for life plus $20 off, yes free grass-fed grass-finished ground beef for life plus $20 off. We are so, so honored to be sponsored by ButcherBox. They make it so, so easy to get high-quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork, that's really hard to find, by the way, and wild-caught sustainable and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. When you become a member, you're joining a community focused on doing what's better for everyone. That includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect, and enjoying deliciously better meals together. There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to transparency regarding raising practices, what is actually in our food, how animals are being treated. I did so much research on ButcherBox. You can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. But I am so grateful for all of the information that I learned about their company. All of their beef is 100% grass-fed and grass-finished that's really hard to find and they work personally with all the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves but the planet. This is so important to me. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. 

If you recently saw a documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy, you might be a little bit nervous about eating seafood. Now, I understand why ButcherBox makes it so, so clear and important about how they work with the seafood industry. Everything is checked for transparency, for quality, and for sustainable raising practices you want their seafood. The value is incredible, the average cost is actually less than $6 per meal, and it's so easy. Everything ships directly to your door. I am a huge steak lover. Every time I go to restaurant, I usually order steak. Oh, my goodness, the ButcherBox steaks are amazing. I remember the first time I had one and I just thought, “This is honestly one of the best steaks I've ever had in my entire life.” On top of that, did you know that the fatty acid profile of grass-fed, grass-finished steaks is much healthier for you than conventional steaks? And their bacon, for example, is from pastured pork, and sugar and nitrate free. How hard is that to find? And ButcherBox has an incredible deal for our audience. For limited time, you can get free grass-fed grass-finished ground beef for life in every box of your subscription plus $20 off, yes, new members can get free grass-fed grass-finished ground beef for life plus $20 off when you go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, that's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast for free grass-fed grass-finished ground beef for life plus $20 off and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things, like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means, when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so, you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 295 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie, how are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm okay as you know. I honestly forgot what this is like to be super sleep deprived because I put a lot of effort into making sure that I get a lot of sleep, like I prioritize it like none other. So right now, I'm currently in the virtual queue for the Taylor Swift Presale Concert. And it's been five hours and I'm like not present. And I was texting Cynthia being like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to record but we are here. But I forgot what this feels like, I took some coffee.

Cynthia Thurlow: Good. So, a stimulant will definitely help you, but you're like a real person.

Melanie Avalon: I know. But I feel like I'm not quite present.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, but it's amazing how when you have like one blip in your sleep radar, you actually you'll be fine. You'll be tired, you'll go to bed probably around your normal time and then tomorrow you'll wake up and feel totally normal.

Melanie Avalon: So true, I don't normally-- I think we've talked about this. How much coffee do you drink? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Zero.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, none.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I'm not a coffee drinker. And it's funny because I had some genetic testing done and they actually said I do fine with, caffeine but I have to be completely transparent and say I made it through all my pre-med classes, all of undergrad and grad school never drinking coffee.

Melanie Avalon: With no coffee?

Cynthia Thurlow: No coffee. And the nights, I worked nights in ERs and worked overnights in the hospital and no coffee. I would drink, I can't limit this. I used to drink Diet Pepsi, which is disgusting.

Melanie Avalon: So, you weren't getting caffeine?

Cynthia Thurlow: But I couldn't tolerate it, it's not something I could drink every day. It was like, I would bring it with me in case I felt like I literally could not keep my eyes open but not every day. So, I'm officially very much an early bird that is uncaffeinated, except for my occasional green tea, which I don't necessarily have every day out of laziness.

Melanie Avalon: I was thinking about it actually a few days ago. Because normally I think I've shared this before I literally just have like a sip of coffee, like a sip every morning. It's more just a mental thing. It's probably like no caffeine in it at all. But I was reflecting their day on how nice it kind of is to not be dependent on coffee because I know and I mean I would go through, like in college really intense periods and coffee is something were-- like I did my experiment with alcohol and wine where I didn't drink for a year to see if I was like happier not drinking and I realized I was much happier having wine every night. Like with coffee, I feel like if I go into a coffee every day, I think I am happier without coffee, because it's just nice not to have to use it. And then when you need it, like right now, it's like very potent, and I probably just had like, a quarter of a cup and I'm like, okay.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] But I think it's also recognizing that this is like a good indication of a day that you do well with it. Like, I will take adaptogenic herbs or I will take glandular products if I feel like I definitely need a little bit of support. But I don't, I like the way coffee smells. I just don't like the way it tastes, I never have and it's ironic that I have a child that's kind of an espresso Americano snob and really is into his coffee and then the other three of us don't drink it at all.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Yeah. I will say though my thoughts on coffee just in case people are curious because I'm not trying to scare people away from coffee. I feel like the studies are pretty consistent that coffee drinkers have health benefits.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well absolutely, the polyphenols and the plant-based compounds in coffee and bitter teas are, it's undeniable. I think that's how I actually started forcing myself to drink green tea a couple of days a week with a understanding that those bitter plant-based compounds actually have physiologic benefits. And so, I'm like, "Okay, you're going to learn how to drink this?" And so, I iced my green tea. That's how I drink it.

Melanie Avalon: It's also pretty mind blowing. I'm pretty sure they say isn't coffee our biggest source of magnesium? Am I making that up?

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean I think about getting a lot of those from brightly pigmented vegetables. And I think coffee is very bio-individual because I have some patients that will actually increase their cortisol, which increases their blood sugar. And so, it's figuring out what the right amount is for everyone. I used to have patients that would drink, I don't know, 10 cups of coffee a day. And I was like, how are you functioning? I would be a like nervous, jittery, mess.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I mean there's definitely that tolerance that happens. I shudder thinking about how much I drank in college. I don't know why I was thinking coffee was this high source of magnesium. But I think it is definitely like the number one source of something like polyphenols or something in Americans' diets, which is interesting.

Cynthia Thurlow: That is, I would hope it would come from a combination of things and not just something drinkable. But I think Americans just really, like I understand, I love the idea of something warm and my hands like the ritual of that I get, but I don't know, I like getting polyphenols from a variety of things, even bitter herbs and vegetables and things like that.

Melanie Avalon: I looked it up, it is antioxidants for most people. That's crazy.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, think about how many people are drinking regular coffee as opposed to like understanding that it tends to be a mycotoxin-rich food product and just understanding that there're some nuances to the healthiest options that are out there. I'm probably going to get hate mail from the coffee lovers out there. But that's always the way I think about it. As I think if you tolerate coffee and you enjoy it, that's great. Just try to pick the best quality product that your budget permits.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I definitely think like you mentioned those mycotoxins are quite an issue. And then just one other comment about what you're mentioning about the sleep. I'm prepping right now to interview, Heather Moday, she wrote a book about the Immune System and Immunotypes, I think I mentioned it on a previous episode. And something that just stuck with me that she was talking about was sleep and she was saying how like out of all the lifestyle factors like diet, sleep, exercise, sleep is hands down the thing that can give you the fastest return on investment, but basically what you were just saying like with one night's sleep, you can see so many changes and improvements in so many biomarkers, compared to like diet where you have to like takes a little bit and exercise even so, yes, value your sleep is the point. So, anything new with you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh goodness, we are finalizing our plans for spring break. So that's been exciting. And every year I plan a spring break trip and no one knows what I've planned. And so, there were some requests at the end of last year they didn't want to go away for Christmas. I was like, "Okay, I got that." And so, we're doing something different. We are flying to Portugal and we'll be in two cities there and doing a variety of historical things and food tours and I'm excited.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome and how are things going with your creatine?

Cynthia Thurlow: Good, it's really exciting, we've got amazing feedback. And from my perspective, women having a better understanding of how it can improve both cognition and muscle health. And it was interesting, I was presenting a research article to some of my coaches today and I was telling them about the role of lowered levels of estrogen, how that impacts muscle protein synthesis, and why in those instances, it's even more important that we're taking exogenous, meaning creatine outside the body because our body-- women actually make 70% to 80% less creatine endogenously, inside the body, this gets exacerbated further heading into perimenopause and menopause. So, I was talking to them about how they were looking at two different groups in this randomized control trial. Women that were taking creatine and not doing any strength training versus women that were taking creatine and doing strength training. And there was no comparison in terms of the net improvement in muscle quality and muscle health. I think on a lot of different levels, what I've been loving is just having the conversation about the unique needs of women. And also identifying that men benefit from taking creatine as well. So, it's going really well, I'm very excited. I'm so appreciative that you encouraged me to create my own supplements.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited, I'm really excited as well to hear people's feedback after trying yours. And I just got my notification email that yours is coming, I can't wait to try it. So, I know I've asked you this a lot, "How do I take it, can I take it with food?"

Cynthia Thurlow: You can take it. Typically, what I've been doing is using it in a smoothie, but you can take it with food, you definitely don't want to take it in a fasted state. It's for one of those feeding windows in terms of getting the maximize benefits, but it's a white powder, it's easy to measure, that gives you a complete-- the scoop is for 3 grams. All the research has been done on 3 to 5 grams, 5 grams is I'd be leaning more into individuals that are vegetarian or vegan because their needs are actually increased by virtue of the fact they are not consuming animal-based protein. So yeah, it's super easy to take. It doesn't taste like anything, it blends really easily, thankfully, because I think we've all had powders that are chalky, and don't mix well with water and that's never a good thing.

Melanie Avalon: So, you said it doesn't taste like anything.

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: Really like, nothing?

Cynthia Thurlow: Not to me. I've got this acute sense of taste, I think, which is why I don't like coffee, because it's just too-- I was one of those weird people, anything that I would say I would be like the taste tester a couple 100 years ago to determine if something was poisonous, because I have this crazy acute sense of taste and smell, which is not to my benefit having worked in healthcare for many years.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, oh, I can imagine. I'll probably take it like literally with my food. I'm super weird. I like to take supplements with food like I just eat them. And that's okay, like open capsules and like pour them on things. And like I would order quercetin powder and just like add to my food, I would order all these random things like milk thistle.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, you're very adventurous.

Melanie Avalon:  Well, very exciting, so how can people order?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, so you would go to my website and the correct address should be-- www.cynthiathurlow.com/creatine is what it should be. There are all sorts of technological glitches that occur throughout this launch process, it's eliminated, little glitches that we don't think are a big deal and then you realize with coding, any little miss stroke of a key can make things not work properly.

Melanie Avalon: I know it's crazy. I remember when I launched serrapeptase the night before-- the day of because it was a midnight launch. We realized there was a glitch and they had to rebuild my entire website right up until, it was so stressful. Yeah, technology-- and I'm like right now I'm still in this Taylor Swift queue. I'm like staring at the thing. [laughs] 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm really impressed with your dedication.

Melanie Avalon: I have got to get these tickets. The thing is when they come out, if you know about, you probably don't-- about this verified fan presale that Ticketmaster does?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do not.

Melanie Avalon: So, I learned about it with this, for the different artists they try to make it so that the fans can get tickets without it going through all of these resellers where they jack up the prices so they do this like a special sale where you have to be on their email list and then you have to apply and then you have to be accepted and it seems very arbitrary how they accept you or not. Like my good friend did not get accepted, but I did. So, then if you get accepted, then the day of which was this morning you get in the waitlist, and then you have a code for once you get in to like actually get the seats. But it's been so glitchy I think. Ticketmaster sort of crashed from all the Taylor Swift Fans. So, that's where I am waiting. But okay, sorry, tangents.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, that's super exciting. I'm excited for you.

Melanie Avalon: Last question about the creatine, is there a launch special or coupon code for people?

Cynthia Thurlow: It should be CYNTHIA, it we'll give you 10% off. During the launch we had even more amazing discounts, but now that it is officially on sale, you get 10% off with code CYNTHIA.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome, awesome. And last question about it. How is your creatine different from other creatines on the market?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I think we really did an incredibly conscientious effort to keep it simple, there were lots of ideas that were proposed. And I really wanted it to be creatine monohydrate and without any fillers, to know where it was properly sourced from. And I just think when you get online, and you buy things from Amazon as an example, obviously, there are great things that come from Amazon. But I think when it comes to supplementation, we just have to be careful. And so, we know where this product was sourced from, we know where it's packaged, we know what it's not full of. And I know much to your point about not having fillers and gluten and dairy and soy and other garbagy things that get added to supplements in an effort to keep costs low. This is what I believe to be the most high-quality creatine monohydrate that's available in the market.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, I can definitely attest to all of that just for listeners who are not familiar, both Cynthia and I work with MD Logic to create our supplements. And the amazing thing about it is the ability for us to really make exactly what we want to make to the highest quality and they test multiple times for heavy metals and toxins and fillers, and it's nice to feel very confident in the products that we're creating. So, I'm very excited for you and the creatine.

Cynthia Thurlow: Thank you. Likewise.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get 15% off of my favorite bone broth, which is an incredible way to open your eating window. Also, for all of you vegetarians and vegans, stay tuned because there's something for you too. I've been talking about the incredible health effects of bone broth for years. Bone broth is so nourishing for our body. It's rich in collagen, which can really support your gut health, your skin, curb cravings, boost your energy, and your immunity. But there are a lot of brands out there, a lot of them have ingredients that I don't like, and making it yourself can also be very time consuming. That's why I am thrilled about Beauty & the Broth. Beauty & the Broth was created by Melissa Bolona. She's an incredible actress and entrepreneur. I've had her on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But Melissa started Beauty & the Broth after she realized the profound effect that bone broth was having on her own health, specifically, gut issues and its ability to give her radiant skin perfect for the camera. She founded Beauty & the Broth, which hit everything I could want in bone broth. It uses 100% whole organic ingredients. Yes, it is certified USDA Organic. It is one of the only few bone broth companies in the entire US that has a USDA certification for organic bone broth. It has no artificial flavors, no preservatives, no phthalates, no sugar, and something that I love, no salt. 

Friends, even other bone broth that I really love always have salt added. This doesn't. Her bone broths are made from grass-fed ranch-raised beef and vegetarian-fed free-range chicken bones from Certified Humane USDA Organic Farms and all certified organic vegetables are used the broth as well. There're no antibiotics, no hormones, only the good stuff. Here's the super cool thing about Beauty & the Broth. It can be a little bit of a hassle to transport bone broth. It's heavy, you have to keep it frozen. Guess what? Beauty & the Broth comes in shelf-stable packets with no preservatives that you keep at room temperature and they are in concentrated form. That means that you add back water to reconstitute and you can make it any strength that you like. They're single servings, so you can take them with you on the go, and even on the plane as yes, they are 3 ounces, and they're delicious. Oh, my goodness, friends, they will just make you light up. They're honestly, one of the most amazing things I've ever tasted. And for all of you vegans and vegetarians, Beauty & the Broth has a brand-new vegan broth concentrate. It is USDA Organic and is a slow simmer broth which is reduced into a thick gelatinous gel, you mix it with hot water and turn it into a delicious sipping broth. It features organic mushrooms and chickpeas, ginger, seaweed, and pea protein. It is so delicious. So, definitely check that out.

if you've been looking to finally jump on the bone broth train, do it now and do it with Beauty & the Broth. Melissa has an amazing offer just for our listeners. You can go to thebeautyandthebroth.com or melanieavalon.com/broth and use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON to get 15% off. That's thebeautyandthebroth.com with the coupon code MELANIEAVALON for 15% off. All of the listeners who have tried it ever since I aired my episode with Melissa have talked about how much they love it. It is so delicious, you guys will definitely love it, so definitely check that out. By the way, bone broth does break your fast. This is something that you want to have in your eating window. In fact, it's an amazing way to open your eating window because when you're in that fasted state when you take in bone broth as the first thing, all of those rich nutrients and collagen go straight to your gut, help heal your gut, help with leaky gut, help digestive issues. And again, you can go to thebeautyandthebroth.com and use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON for 15% off. I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into some questions for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: To start things off, we have a question from Heather, the subject is "IF." Heather says, "Can you tell us, ladies, what a day of eating looks like for each of you? How much protein and carbs y'all eat and still are able to maintain ketosis? I'm about to receive all three books from both of you in the mail." This question is from actually a few years ago, she's probably talking about my book and then when Gin had two books. "I'm about to receive all three books from both of you in the mail, so, excited. I have been on keto way of eating for over a year and just starting to look into expanding my carb intake XOXO."

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Heather, thank you for your question. I would say when I was first new to fasting, I didn't track my macros per se. But obviously, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon's work has had a huge influence on me. And so initially, after I met her, I started tracking protein and that's my guide. Now, I don't track macros because I generally don't need to and I just lean into more of an intuitive eating approach. As an example today, I didn't break my fast until gosh, almost 12:30, because I had to drive to DC with my husband for a doctor's appointment. And so, I sat down and had a bison burger, I had three deviled eggs, I had some sauteed mushrooms, a lot of this is just leftover stuff. And I would say that this is a lower-carb meal for me. I tend to hover under 75 grams, under 50 grams, sometimes as much as 100, but I definitely am conscientious and it's not that I don't enjoy carbohydrates. But even the non-starchy variety just depends on the day. And for me, it was eating a meal quickly because I had things I had to do this afternoon. And then my second meal today will probably be, I think we're going to boil some salmon. And I might have salad, we do a lot of food prep in my house just to make meals move along faster. Today is going to be a lower carb day. A higher carb day, I might have 100 to 125 grams of carbs. I just do better, me personally, when I keep my carb threshold about under 75, under 50 a day, but it's never to be restrictive. It's just I lean into what my body needs. Like yesterday, I needed some more carbohydrates, so I had some blueberries as dessert last night and some dark chocolate. But I think for each one of us, it's really determining what makes us feel good, and I definitely carb cycle. On a day when I have more carbohydrates, I may have three meals in my feeding window, open up my feeding window, and just have more discretionary carbs that might be sweet potato or root vegetables. But the protein piece for me is almost always at least 100 to 125 grams of protein a day. And that's really what I lean into. And then the fats as I need to like today I had olives, which I know that Melanie hates. But I love olives, they're like one of my favorite things. What about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, so I actually really like this question for a few reasons. One, because people ask me a lot what I eat and I don't like to hardcore share because I'm so crazy. And also, I don't want people to eat what I'm eating because it's what I'm eating. But in any case, to answer this, I don't count protein or carbs, I sort of exist within a macronutrient paradigm. So basically, I just do either low fat, high carb, or low carb, higher fat, not really high fat, I don't ever really go like super crazy on the fat. But in general, I'm usually doing a low-fat, high-carb, high-protein approach. And I'm happy that she asked about still being able to maintain ketosis because I'm going to comment on that. I do the one meal a day for four hours or so every night and it is about a couple of pounds of meat and it's a couple of pounds of fruit. And I just looked up the fruit, I probably eat about 200 grams of carbs and fruit, which is a lot mostly from like blueberries. I used to do pineapple. But the thing I wanted to comment on is maintaining ketosis. I actually don't know if I'm going into ketosis during the fast or how deeply I am If so, I haven't measured ketones and forever. Like last time I was measuring ketones was probably back in like 2018. And interesting, I mean this isn't surprising, but I did find that when I was on the higher fat days especially if I added MCT oil, the ketones would go through the roof compared to not so much on the high carb. But what I want to point out is, you don't have to be in ketosis to burn fat. And I think a lot of people can get all the benefits of intermittent fasting without worrying so much about whether or not they're in ketosis during the fast. So yeah, I honestly don't even know if I'm getting into ketosis, but I am eating about probably 200 carbs every night. And who knows how many grams of protein, whatever is in a couple of pounds of meat?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I think the big thing is understanding we're all bio individuals. So, asking us is certainly a great question but by the same token understanding depending on how metabolically flexible you are, depending on your age, how much muscle mass you have, can really influence what your carbohydrate threshold is. And certainly, you don't want to be in ketosis 24/7. In fact, that's why I kicked myself out. That's why I actually alternate the amount of carbohydrates that I consume. And I know Ben Azadi and I talk about this quite a bit. If you don't know, Ben Azadi. He's amazing, a friend of mine who heads up the podcast Keto Kamp and has proliferative content around ketosis and ketones and things like this. And so, we want to vary what we're doing day to day and I think that's certainly important.

Melanie Avalon: Like because of this question, I said, at the beginning, I get so nervous about people thinking there's one answer that they have to do what another person is doing when bio-individuality is so key. I'm actually recording with Ben tomorrow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, good, I love Ben.

Melanie Avalon: I've never met him, just through email. So, I haven't like talked to him or anything.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, he's one of the most positive people you will ever meet. Like really and genuinely one of the most positive people. And I mean, we've been friends for several years and have spoken on so many stages together. And my husband knows, he and his fiancé and I know them and, like we just really enjoy each other's company. He's a good person, a good human.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really, really excited about that. So okey-dokey. Shall we go on to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure, this is from Robin and the subject is "Chronic pain flare." "I enjoy your podcast and I'm loving the diet. However, I'm having a significant flare-up of my chronic pain and wonder if it is related to intermittent fasting. I've been diagnosed with central sensitivity, chronic Lyme, and fibromyalgia. Is it possible there is another variable play? Always too many variables? My wife suggested I ask you. My internet search didn't yield any answers and I'm hoping you also haven't heard of this happening or if it does happen to some that it will subside as my body adjusts. I've been doing intermittent fasting since mid-April and vary between four to eight-hour windows with only occasional lapses when I've been sick. I really love it, so don't want to stop." Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: All right, Robin, thank you so much for your question. So, I thought a lot about this and I have a very casual answer. And then I have what I found from researching, which did not find the answers I was hardcore looking for. I'll start with the research side of things. So, I did a lot of searching for fasting and chronic pain. There's a lot of studies on fasting helping chronic pain. So, there was a really nice review. I think it was a review, but it was called Intermittent Fasting: Potential Utility in the Treatment of Chronic Pain across the Clinical Spectrum. I had never thought about pain, how it breaks down, like all the different types of pain. So, it talks about like all the different types of pain and like how there're six main types and has this really nice chart about how fasting can benefit most of those types with sources. But just in general if you do a search in PubMed or Google Scholar, there's a lot of studies about fasting benefiting pain, which is not the experience that Robin is sharing. I found another study called the analgesic effect of refeeding on acute and chronic inflammatory pain. And it was speaking to the effects specifically of fasting versus eating on pain perception. It was in rodents, not humans, but some of the interesting findings. So again, I don't know how much of this applies to humans because of the rodent aspect. But they did find that both fasting and feeding helped pain, but that for fasting in the rodents it was only in the second half of the fact that they started experiencing the pain-relieving effects and fasting helped only the inflammatory type of pain and not mechanical, whereas food seemed to help both. Again, that's nuanced I don't know how much of that applies to humans, especially when the majority of the studies that I could find were that fasting helped pain, my casual, non-scientific sort of N of 1 I haven't experienced it but I feel like I've seen all people talking about this, a lot of people will say that when they start fasting, whatever issues they have, can get worse before they get better. And I don't know if it's like a healing crisis or a detox effect or what's going on. I mean it does sound sort of like that rodent study where it said the pain-relieving effects started in the second half of the fast. So, have you heard that Cynthia, where people say that it gets a little bit worse before it gets better with fasting?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's funny, I always think about food-based sources of inflammation that can be exacerbated, especially with someone that has chronic Lyme, I think there's a lot to unpack there. I mean, you've got a chronic inflammatory response syndrome. And I can come at this question with many different angles. More often than not, people feel a whole lot better as they're pulling things out of their diet. I wonder if there's a diet variable that hasn't been examined that may be making things worse in conjunction with fasting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I would encourage you, Robin, to keep on with the fasting, I would imagine there are other variables at play, and I can't see how the fasting would continually perpetually continue to make things worse. I would probably stick it out and see what happens and see if it gets better. And definitely, like Cynthia said, look at other potential issues for what might be going on there with food and things like that. Talking about, Cynthia, where like when people start fasting, they experience things. I don't know if it's because the body is like finally cleaning up and tackling stuff, but I feel like people will experience, I don't like using the word healing crisis because that sounds very woo-woo but do you know I'm talking about in this idea?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do, again, I'm going to come out this as a clinician, and from my perspective, if there's this upregulation of autophagy and there's some degree of deeper healing that's ongoing. And then on top of that their detoxification pathways aren't properly opened. I mean that could be contributory. I'm just looking at this as just from the perspective that we know, we detoxify every day, we poop, we pee, we breathe, we sweat. But the two main sites of detoxification where our body is getting rid of toxins, breaking down medications, etc., two phases that occur in the liver and then the bulk of toxins are then hopefully excreted through the digestive system and the gut. And so, I think there're many variables at play when people tell me that they're having an upregulation in pain, I believe that but obviously, I think that there's probably a component to this that is probably not completely clear in the question. And it's not a criticism of Robin, I'm just saying that chronic pain people just have an upregulation in inflammatory cytokines and other inflammatory processes. And there could be something else going on. When people tell me they have fibromyalgia and they have a tick-borne illness. There's a lot going on. From my perspective, I think it's digging deep, anti-inflammatory nutrition, removing the most common predicators of inflammation in the body, the gluten, grains, dairy, alcohol, sugar, soy in conjunction with fasting can be really powerful. But I would also want to ensure that Robin has taken the steps or is leaning into opening up those detoxification pathways that could be exacerbating why there's a pain response.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's great. Another thing I was thinking of, this is not probably what's happening with her, but it's just an example of something where something might get worse before it gets better, people will talk about when they go on, like a carnivore diet, and they have oxalate dumping, things like that where some sort of restriction for whatever reason causes a release of a compound or toxins or a stir up of something else.

Cynthia Thurlow: This plant-based defenses are real thing. I think that for many of us, obviously if you have chronic Lyme, you've had multiple rounds of antibiotics. There's no question you've got some degree of hyperpermeability of the small intestine. There's a lot that can go on. So, from my perspective, those are the people who tend to be the most sensitive to those plant-based defenses, whether it's oxalates, whether it's saponins. There're just so many variables that could be impacting that. And I find that even those of us that are abiding by like a gluten-free diet, I always think about almonds as the best example like they're proliferative and keto and low-carb products. But the oxalates can be a huge hindrance to, really dampening down the inflammatory response in the body. And for a lot of people, they may get pain, others may get diarrhea, they may have abdominal pain. It's interesting I interviewed an oxalate expert on the podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Who'd you interview?

Cynthia Thurlow: Monique, and she trains underneath, who's that woman? It's like Sharon Sandy.

Melanie Avalon: Sally Norton and Susan Owens mixed up.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, it's one of the two. And so, she trained with her and she's in a wonderful resource and all her content is leaning in the oxalate. I was stunned at how much I learned. And so, for me, I don't tolerate a lot of the heavier oxalate foods and still don't to this day. And I think a lot of it had to do with the 13 days of being hospitalized, a lot of antifungals, antibiotics for six weeks, and my gut's probably still healing. So, when I look at this, there's a lot of different things that could be going on. But I would start with nutrition as being a huge driver in the detoxification.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'll put a link in the show notes. I had Sally Norton on my show. The oxalate is one of those topics where I don't normally think about it and I think a lot of people don't normally think about it. But then like you just said, when you hear the information about it, it's mind-blowing. It's like, "Oh, maybe this actually is a major issue."

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. And I just had Bill Schindler on the podcast. I know you've had him on your podcast. We talked about oxalates and I said if you look at them under a microscope, they look like little crystals. And I said is it any surprise that these plant-based defenses are designed to protect the plant, but in someone who's susceptible to them, like me, this is why my mother, I've got an Italian mother, she's always trying to get me to eat more greens. And I finally had to say, I was like leave me alone about the kale and the spinach. I'm like it doesn't agree with me. And someone else, it's probably absolutely fine. But for me, I know exactly what it does to my digestive system. It just reminds me that, there's a very fine line with a little bit and then enough that will provoke a flare. And I'm just not willing to go there.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'll also put a link in the show notes. My app Food Sense Guide has oxalates as one of the compounds that it shows if people are curious about the levels of oxalates in food. So, you can get that at melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide and we can put a link to the interviews with Bill Schindler. He's so amazing.

Cynthia Thurlow: He was lovely and it was funny. I make my husband listen to my podcast episodes. He was like he's talking about bugs and he's talking about organ meat and he was like, "I got to meet this guy, he sounds amazing." And I said, "No he's a complete realist." Like, he'll tell you his kids didn't love the insects, but he talks about the value of cricket flour and just being open minded to the fact that back in paleolithic days you just ate what was available. You weren't picky about like I'm only eating muscle meat, I probably would have starved. But yeah, I'm not the most foodie adventurous, I'm not eating the cartilage and organs every day and goodness. I like Pluck though. Have you tried Pluck? 

Melanie Avalon: No, what is?

Cynthia Thurlow: So, it's like an organ meat-based seasoning. It's really good. We'll have to link it up in the show notes.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, that sounds so cool. Wait, it's made from organ meats, but it's a seasoning, wait.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, it's a chef that created it, James Berry, mm-hmm. I have had him on the podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, this is so cool.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and it's really good. And actually, they came out with some new flavors. And so, the spicy is really good. Actually, I like all of them. But we'll link it up, we'll give you my discount code. But unlike anything that can get organ meats, in general, more accessible, to me if I throw it over deviled eggs, it's no big deal. But if I sat down and ate a piece of liver that probably wouldn't happen. So, I think the understanding is trying to make these things accessible. I know Bill does a great job with that. James Berry does a great job with that and he's a chef, and I just really appreciate people trying to find clever ways to get people eating more nutrient-dense foods.

Melanie Avalon: I'm looking this up. Okay, so like their main one, like the normal all-purpose one so it has a blend of liver, spleen, kidney, heart, pancreas with onion, salt, paprika, lemon, pepper, garlic, parsley, mustard seed, thyme. Wonder if they have one that's AIP friendly. Let's see pure. Let's look at the pure one.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's just organ meat.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah. And then Zesty Garlic, let me look at that one. I like doing online shopping. Wait, this is so cool.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and they're really good. And so, James is like a real chef. And I love just how clever he is.

Melanie Avalon: Friends, I want the Zesty Garlic one, it has liver, spleen, kidney, heart, pancreas, and then onion, garlic, lemon peel, salt, carrot, garlic, cabbage, parsley, oregano, marjoram, basil, and thyme.

Cynthia Thurlow: Totally good. And spicy is good, too. We're kind of spicy people. We like a little bit of spice, my husband more so he does than I do. But it's going to be part of our holiday gift list because I think it's just a fun way to get people exposed to eating organ meat in a way that's not scary. Like I'm not going to sit down and eat a plate of spleen although I can respect those that do.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and they actually do list on their website if it's AIP or not. Super cool, that never occurred to me, that's smart. And then there's a lot of people like there's some company that makes, it's like breadcrumbs, but it's like made from meat. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, is that like the pork panko?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think so. It's like they have it like chicken.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's a little salty. I like the idea. We tried it and it was so salty. And I was like, I like salt but it was a little too salty for me.

Melanie Avalon: So, another company actually reached out to me called Safe Catch?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, they reached out to me, I think I told you about the scallops with them.

Melanie Avalon: The scallops you told me about were-- because I read it down to look them up was Seatopia?

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, they all run together.

Melanie Avalon: Seafood is my thing. So, I've been like taking notes. I literally have written down in my agenda to look up your Seatopia scallops. So, you like those?

Cynthia Thurlow: I thought they were good. I like to buy fish the day of-- that's my husband is a fisherman and likes to go deep sea fishing. And so, he's super picky about seafood. So, we tend to buy it the day that we're going to eat it. So, I think it's super convenient. Like I think ButcherBox is awesome in terms of like, meat shows up at my door, I don't have to go to the grocery store. I'm not 100% sold on seafood being sent to my house. I'm not there yet.

Melanie Avalon: So, I'll comment on the seafood aspect. Often times when you're buying it fresh, it's actually less fresh than frozen. Because frozen, they freeze it right there. And so that stops histamine production, and basically just freezes it in time compared to when you buy it at the store. If it hasn't been frozen in between which sometimes they freeze it and thaw it again. But regardless, it's a longer shelf life where it's been not frozen which is interesting. I think a lot of people don't think about that, which is why I'm all about the frozen. So, the Safe Catch, the reason I really, really like them is they have tuna and salmon and they test all of it for mercury. And I just think this is such a problem, especially with tuna because with tuna, there're so many different species and so many different sizes. So, the mercury levels in tuna can range, some tuna can be low mercury, but some can be really, really high. And so, they actually test, so all of their tuna test to be super low in mercury and the same with the salmon and it comes in, they just sent me a box, but it comes in pouches. So, I'm really, really excited that they reached out to me, they gave me a coupon code. So, this will only be through the end of the year. So, stock up now. And this would be a great thing to stock up on because like I said it comes in pouches. So, you can just stock up. You can get 20% off with the coupon code MELANIEAVALON. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But their website is safecatch.com, which is easy. But yeah, going back to the fish thing because I'm like such a fish fan, you can always ask at the counter. Like if it's been frozen or not frozen or like what the deal is with it. Oftentimes, it's just a little fun fact at Whole Foods, half of the time this stuff that they have in the fish counter, is just a thawed version of the frozen bags that you would buy in the frozen section. Like they do with the shrimp. They do that with the barramundi, I think they might do it with the salmon. So, it's kind of crazy.

Cynthia Thurlow: Awesome. Now, it's always good to learn about options that are out there that are safer. I think after my mercury issue about five years ago, I've just been very conscientious about sporadically eating fish and not eating it often.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, once you have that mercury toxicity problem and it's something where you can just stop me because I'm so passionate about this subject. I'll talk about it for an hour, but it's something where you don't see it, like you don't see the mercury in fish. So, if you could see the mercury, I promise you people would not be putting even moderate mercury species of fish into their mouth. I've said this a ton of times but if you look at like the spread and you take a piece of tilapia that has the lowest amount of mercury possible and you compare it to a piece of swordfish that has the highest amount, it can be 300 times. So, if you eat one piece of swordfish that could be like eating 300 pieces of tilapia for the mercury in one meal.

Cynthia Thurlow: My mom would throw a sea bass, like fixation for a long time.

Melanie Avalon: Chilean sea bass?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know. It's so good.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and when I tell you it was like years. That's like every time we showed up, she went from being vegan to eating fish and eggs and we were very happy about this. And now she's back to eating meat. But the joke was, she would buy the most massive piece of sea bass and sea bass is wonderful, but it's like one of those overfished fishes that's why it's so expensive, that's the other thing is like trying to get acclimated, like being open to trying different things. I think that's important, just being open minded is certainly very helpful.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, definitely. When it comes to the fish. I actually have a blog post, I'll put it in the show notes. I talk about the fish that I will eat because I really only will eat. I'm very, very limited. I'll eat scallops and shrimp because they're so low on the totem pole. I'll eat farm salmon, I won't even eat wild salmon with the exception of this Safe Catch, which is very exciting. And then I eat responsibly farmed tilapia if I know the source and then I'll eat Australia's barramundi and then when I go out, I might get like, sole or trout or something. It's funny Gin and I had completely different food tastes. So, she was like not about the fish at all. [chuckles]

Cynthia Thurlow: I grew up at the shore, for anyone that's from New Jersey, the shore, the Jersey Shore. And so, we had a lot of fish growing up. And it wasn't really until, probably until I got to Baltimore, because Baltimore's on the water and there's just a lot of like crabs. And I mean, you just eat a lot more shellfish and fish in general. And then I met my husband who's from Annapolis, and we don't eat a ton of fish because my kids don't love it. And it just isn't worth it, it's expensive. They like shrimp, so we do shrimp, but my husband and I will usually get fish for ourselves and then give the teenagers the meat, which is what they want.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's interesting, that fish seems to be more of an acquired. "Oh, my queue is moving, okay, okay, I'm sorry, well, okay, okay. I might have to-- Oh, it's moving, I'm like 1,288 people in front of me.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh my God.

Melanie Avalon: For the past five hours it's been at 2,000 plus and now it's just oh, 1125, I'm going to get in in a second. Okay, okay, I will just say about the fish. Sorry, this is real-time, real-time Melanie getting her Taylor Swift tickets. 950, I'm going to have to jump it a second, 762. I'll just say about the fish really quickly. It's interesting that it seems to often be an acquired taste. I feel like kids shy away from it. 

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Melanie Avalon: Okie-Dokie, shall we go on to another question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: So, we actually have two questions and they go together, sort of, they're similar topics, so I thought I would read them together. So, we have a question from Therese. The subject is "Repetitive routines or mix it up." And Therese says, "Hi, love your podcast." I recently started IF and the first weeks, I simply followed the 16:8 method. I found an app that has great programs and found a program for weight loss and the setup seems to be switching it up with different intervals of eating and fasting. I think of it almost as when you exercise you get best results when you switch it up by doing both cardio strength and different types of intervals. Does weight loss via IF get better results when you're not letting your body get used to a steady rhythm, but rather surprise it with different internal windows of fasting and eating." And then James, his subject is "Constantly changing fasting windows," and he says, "I started IF about a month ago using the BodyFast app, which recommends a different program every week, 24-hour fast 16:8, 20:4 and everything in between to prevent your body getting used to a pattern. I also move fasting periods myself to allow social occasions. I have heard you talk positively about keeping the same fasting rhythm. What is your view on switching schedules in these ways?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Therese and James, if you are at all familiar with my work, I am a huge proponent of variety as it pertains to nutrition, exercise, and a fasting program. Obviously, for women that are still menstruating there are times in the menstrual cycle when we should lean into more fasting as opposed to others when we should not. Men and menopausal women have the advantage of not having as much hormonal fluctuation. I typically do recommend-- our bodies get lazy, if we are doing the same thing, think about if you did the same workout at the gym every time you went, over time your body gets acclimated and you're no longer challenging it. And so, we want to think about exercise and a fasting regimen is a form of hormesis, beneficial stress in the right amount at the right time to keep things changed and challenged. And I'm absolutely a proponent of different types of exercise, which includes strength training, high-intensity interval training if that's appropriate for you, NEAT, which is just being physically active throughout the day that's not structured exercise. And then, leaning into the fasting piece. In fact, I was listening to a video of Chris Kresser today and he was presenting some new research, looking at women in particular in fasting and a lot of it goes back to things that I talk about, you have to have a large enough window to get enough protein in in your feeding window, not having to narrow the window, getting concerned with over fasting losing muscle mass. And so, there's a fine line for each one of us. And for me personally and I'm just going to use myself as an example, I'm in a very healthy weight, I don't want to lose muscle mass. I don't do long fasts. There are people to do them and if you have a lot of weight to lose, you're struggling a bit maybe you needed to have like a digestive reset, you have more latitude with that than someone that's already at a goal weight or already pretty metabolically flexible. I think it's a very individual decision, but I'm absolutely a fan of varying what we eat, when we eat, and not doing the same types of exercise every day. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so I've thought about this a lot in general, with the exercise and everything, I definitely agree that mixing it up is so key including all those different types, like you were saying, because that's really most in line with how we would have evolved as a species, we weren't going to the gym and like working out for 30 minutes every day or like doing the same thing every single day, and we were moving functionally, we weren't just exercising this one muscle to, really aesthetically the way it looks. So, health-wise, exercise, mixing it up, I think is great. With fasting, I think as well, it can be great to mix things up. But I think the complicated nuance is, because I just know how I personally am, which for me, like it really works following the same fasting schedule. And when I go off of it, I don't feel as well. And I think part of that might have to do with the peripheral clocks of our body are driven independent within themselves. I was actually just reading about this in a book that I'll probably talk about next episode because have you heard of-- I think I mentioned it before, it's the Oldest Cure in the World?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I have not.

Melanie Avalon: It's by Steve Hendricks, it came out September 6 and it's the deepest dive into the history of fasting I have ever read. So, the subtitle is Adventures in the Art and Science of Fasting. I'm going to interview him which is really exciting, but its mind blowing some of the things I've been learning. But in any case, that part I was reading last night was about the SCN. So, the master clock in our body, which light affects and which drives a lot of our circadian rhythms. But then all of our cells have peripheral clocks and they can function on their own. So, they can be informed by the SCN, but they can also be completely informed on their own. And so, eating is actually a very intense clock within us and it's on its own rhythm and it's often based on how we're eating. And so, the reason I'm bringing this up is I find for me personally that if I follow my same fasting window of a one-meal-a-day situation at night, then I feel good during the day, I'm not hungry during the day, I'm hungry at night. I feel good at night, I find it that when I break it, it messes with that clock for me, and I just get ravenous. So, like if I were to like widen my eating window, which works really well for a lot of people like to have those days where they have a longer window. For me it like just doesn't work, it would just make me hungry and miserable and not feeling good. And so, I wonder if with the fasting it's something where people really should take it individually for how it affects them. And, how do they do with mixing it up or not mixing it up? I think some people will do better with mixing it up and some people won't. Do you have thoughts on that concept?

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, I do. I just think overall if the bulk of the population here in the United States is not metabolically flexible, they have to change things up. I see where you and I are both coming from, honoring our bio-individuality, honoring the fact that I always call you the unicorn. And I mean that in the most affectionate way, like manner, not in a pejorative way. But like, I can get up early, I have to go to bed early, you can stay up late, you like to sleep in. So, it's like figuring out what works for our bodies. But knowing that the bulk of people are metabolically inflexible here in the United States and most westernized countries, changing things up in some capacity, even if it's, you lift an extra day that week, or maybe you go an extra hour without eating or maybe you shorten your window, like some degree of flexibility I think is important for us. And that's what I feel like intrinsically. And certainly, after coaching 1000s of people through this process, there are always exceptions, so let me be very clear. But I feel like most of us need some degree of alteration in schedule. Today's a good example, over the last several months, I've been leaning into eating a little earlier in the day and closing my window a little earlier and that has worked really well for me. But today, I didn't eat till I came home. So, I had an unintended almost 20-hour fast. And that's not my norm. But I was like, I'll be totally fine. I had a big meal, I'll have one more smaller meal before I go to bed, and I'll be good. Unfortunately, when I trained 1000 years ago, the mindset and methodology was you treat every patient the same in terms of if they have blood pressure problems, everyone starts with this medication at this dose. And I've just learned to be a little more thoughtful and a little more individualized. So, some type of variation of what you're doing it doesn't have to be dramatic, can be very helpful.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really glad you said that nuance and that's something I was actually going to comment on. I wasn't quite sure how to say it and I think you said it really well. So, for me, the way I would bring in variability in a way or switching things up would be like fasting a little bit longer. Like it would be like a slight tweak rather than just a completely different eating window or I think I could get similar benefits possibly by changing completely what I'm eating in my eating window, like, be it macro wise or whatever. So, or even like a low-protein day just to like switch things up, or switching to a low-carb day to switch things up. I definitely think there is some magic there with the metabolic [unintelligible [01:03:13] piece. I do wonder though if for some people just sticking it out, at least while they're metabolically inflexible to a certain window might be important until they're metabolically flexible. I don't know if I'm articulating it correctly.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, no, no, I totally agree with you and in fact, I had someone on Instagram the other day. And I know of her, she's very thin, she's an exercise person. She kept saying I don't know why you don't just tell people to intuitively eat. And I said that works fine if you're metabolically flexible, but if you are not, you can't and to think that everyone can is pejorative. And so, I have to very politely say that every time because she always comes back and says, "Don't tell women over the age of 50 they can't do this and this and this." And I'm like, "Well, maybe you're an outlier." But generally speaking, I'm trying to come from a place of kindness, but it's clearly a triggering topic. I think what I hear you saying is very aligned with what I think that we have to be gentle and kind and realize that some people are ready to jump in feet first and some people have to like dip their toe in the pond. They're terrified of adjusting what they're doing and so just acknowledge what resonates for you what feels good. We would never advocate that people do something that's beyond their comfort level. Like if you said to me, I want you to play to organ meat, I would struggle with that I have to be completely upfront, it might be just as scary as suggesting someone to change their feeding window. So, I think just entertaining the possibility of making subtle adjustments can be beneficial.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I cannot agree more and it's really glad to hear your thoughts about that. I often wonder, especially in the beginning when people are fasting if they hadn't flexed their fasting muscle yet, they might want to switch things up, but it's because they haven't stuck to it long enough to really get in the flow of fasting. So, I get nervous about people trying to be too intuitive, too soon. Some people are great though being intuitive, but some people aren't. You just have to know who you are and what works for you.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, unfortunately, I sometimes see very metabolically flexible people shaming other people for not leaning into intuitive eating. I'm like, they can't it's not that they don't want to, the hormonal regulation in their body is off and they just can't lean into that. So, I think that we have to be kind and open minded and compassionate, I think that goes a long way.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly, even for me, it would be really, really hard. And it's not a skill that I feel like I need to learn. I don't feel like I need to be able to intuitively eat a brownie. Maybe if I eat a brownie that makes me really cravy and want more food and maybe that's just the way it is. And maybe I can just know that about myself and not feel bad that I can't, moderate things like that. I think it should be okay if you know that certain foods are troublesome for you to abstain if that makes you happier.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, no, no I think it's interesting. The thing that I'm always intuitive about is carbs, I don't count carbs, but I have a good sense of how much I'm eating. And so, like yesterday is a good example, I wanted blueberries. And by some miracle, my 15-year-old hadn't eaten them all yet. My husband bought them on Sunday. And usually, he finishes off any fruits that's in the house within 24 hours. And so, I had some blueberries and my husband was like, I'm actually glad to see you eating some blueberries. I said, "Well, I wanted them." And it was like, my body wanted something healthy, and I'll lean into that. And so that's the intuition. But I acknowledge that not every person and quite frankly if we look at statistics 7% to 8% of Americans are metabolically flexible. So, the average person can't do that. I think it can be validating to hear that and also gives people something to work towards.

Melanie Avalon: All righty. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode295. You can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and I want to apologize to you, Cynthia, for my craziness today and to the audience for my craziness, but I have the Taylor Swift tickets now. [chuckles]

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, so you got your tickets. I was saying to Melanie, the ticket prices have gotten so insane. I was like how do young people afford to go. I went to so many concerts when I was a teenager and a 20-something, kind of makes me sad.

Melanie Avalon: I know. It's crazy.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's probably why I have tinnitus. I have chronic tinnitus, a chronic ringing in my ears, and my working hypothesis from my ENT, it's all those concerts you went to and I was like probably Red Hot Chili Peppers was especially loud many years ago.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I bet. So, we're going to like rock and roll-type concerts?

Cynthia Thurlow: I've been to everything. It runs the gamut from alternative music when I was in college is now considered very mainstream. But I've seen Red Hot Chili Peppers, I've seen U2 multiple times. I'm dating myself, but yeah, but now it's like I have no interest in being in a big loud crowd. I'm like okay I can watch everything online, I'm good. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Well, I go to concerts. I'm going to Mannheim Steamroller in a few weeks and I'm going to Trans-Siberian Orchestra, but I don't normally-- and I go to musicals that doesn't count. [laughs] I know I'm not a concert person except for Taylor Swift.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I'm very excited for you.

Melanie Avalon: So "Oh, my goodness." Okay. Well. This has been wonderful. Thank you again, sorry again, and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

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Welcome to Episode 294 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

AVALONX BERBERINE: Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

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Go To cynthiathurlow.com/creatine and use code CYNTHIA for 10% off!

Episode 292: Creatine, Brain Health, Sex Hormones, Muscle Building, Insulin Sensitivity, Sarcopenia, Andropause, Mood, Motivation, BDNF, And More!

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Listener Q&A: Dillon - Too “Skin'ny"

Listener Q&A: Sarah - Toning Up

Listener Q&A: Marili - Hair dyes

Light Mountain | Madison Reed | Arctic Fox | VANICREAM™ Hair Spray

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Listener Q&A: Kelly - Cortisol

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #118 - Dr. Michael Breus

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #148 - Dr. Michael Breus (Part 2)

GREEN CHEF: Go To greenchef.com/ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST To Get $5.99 Per Meal Plus Free Shipping On Your First Box!

Listener Q&A: Lynn - Jet Lag

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #112 - Dr. John Lieurance

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode # 3 - Dr. Kirk Parsley

Use The Code MELANIEAVALON At Melanieavalon.Com/Sleepremedy For 10% Off!!

Ep. 233 How to Optimize Your Hormones & Metabolism For Vitality

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 294 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I am so thrilled to announce that my next AvalonX supplement is official and almost here. It is something that I currently take every single day of my life and that is berberine. I first started taking berberine when I first started using a continuous glucose monitor which constantly monitored my blood sugar levels, I found that taking berberine had a dramatic effect on my fasting and post-meal blood sugar levels. Berberine is a plant alkaloid which has been shown to rival metformin when it comes to reducing blood sugar levels without any of the side effects. Blood sugar regulation is so important for health. It's a key factor in metabolic syndrome and preventatively taking care of your blood sugar levels or treating high blood sugar levels is so, so important for health and longevity. That's why I am thrilled to be making a berberine supplement. And it's not just blood sugar control, berberine has been shown to have so many benefits. It's been shown in studies to beneficially modulate adipose tissue. It can actually help change the composition of your fat to a more healthy profile. Think less visceral fat, which is the inflammatory fat found around our organs. It's also been shown to have beneficial effects on PCOS and reductions in inflammation and is a potent stimulator of autophagy which is one of our favorite things. Berberine has also been shown to have a beneficial effect on blood lipids, which is huge, and I wanted to make the best berberine on the market, we looked so hard to find a source of Berberine that tested to be high potency and free of pesticides. Yes, we did third party lab testing on our source as well as testing to assure its quality. It has been tested multiple times for toxins including heavy metals and mold and has no problematic fillers. It also comes in a glass bottle to help prevent leaching of plastics into ourselves and the environment. This is the berberine that you want I promise and it is coming at midnight of Friday, December 16. To get all of the updates about it definitely get on my email list that's at avalonx.us/emaillist, we'll be announcing the launch special on that list. You can also get text updates and a 20% off coupon by texting AVALONX to 877-861-8318. That's AVALONX to 877-861-8318.

By the way, if you would like to get a CGM to monitor your blood sugar levels and see just how berberine is affecting it, you can get $30 off NutriSense CGM at nutrisense.io/ifpodcast with the coupon code IFPODCAST, that's nutrisense.io/ifpodcast with a coupon code IFPODCAST. If you'd to get any of my other amazing supplements at avalonx.us, use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON to get 10% off sitewide at avalonx.us. You can also use that coupon code MELANIEAVALON to get 10% off sitewide and my fantastic partner MD Logic Health for that go to melanieavalon.com/mdlogic.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things, like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years. 

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo, and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook Group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 294 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: How are you, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm doing well. I'm super excited. We're a couple of weeks into the creatine and we're getting such great feedback. It's really exciting. And I have to thank you for encouraging me to do my own supplements as opposed to white labeling supplements as I had been doing.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited for you. By the time this airs, it will have come out right? This airs December 5th.

Cynthia Thurlow: Correct.

Melanie Avalon: So, just as a recap, why did you choose creatine as your first supplement?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it had a lot to do with the fact that I was getting more involved in the research. I myself over the last year started taking creatine last fall and was noticing a lot of beneficial gains in the gym, every week increased the amount of weight I was lifting. And that's been really important to me because I psychologically like to know that I'm getting stronger, not weaker with age. And we understand the complex in relationship between how we start losing muscle mass, and frankly bone mass in our 40s. It's really important to help maintain that. My thought process was I want all my supplements to be focused on two key areas. One is maintaining muscle mass and number two is anything that's going to be helpful for supporting brain and cognition. Creatine was an easy first start because both men and women benefit from taking creatine, but in particular, really my life's work is really helping women understand how it can benefit them. And I think there's a lot of common misconceptions, but it's probably one of the most well researched ergogenic aids or supplements that's out there and I just like people to understand how it can benefit them and not just about the muscle piece, but understand there are certain times during our menstrual cycle where our creatine needs go up and why vegetarians or vegans actually need more creatine than the rest of us. And taking into account the changes in physiology as we get older. For all those reasons, I decided that I would keep it pretty simple. I think you and I are in alignment that we'd like to keep the supplements simple so that we know what works or what doesn't work. And so, creatine all by itself seemed to be a good starting point.

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting because it's something that wasn't really hardcore on my radar or I think maybe I was sort of writing it off in my mind, because I associated it with a protein supplement, probably erroneously. And I was like "I don't need to take any protein-related stuff." But I'm realizing more and more how it's not really about that, as all of these other benefits and I've been hearing it pop up on so many places, so many books, podcasts. So, I'm really, really excited to get yours. We were mentioning the vegan thing, there's that one I would say famous, I realized I probably think things are famous that aren't famous. But there's that one well-known study that looks at creatine supplementation in vegans versus omnivores. And it's debated because they try to debate the interpretation of the results. But me reading it, I think it makes a strong case that vegans likely are, needing creatine to have better brain function compared to meat eaters. What makes your creatine special?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, we really went to the research and it's creatine monohydrate. So, it's a pure form of creatine without fillers, there's no concerns about contaminants. I think the high-quality nature of it, I always jokingly say that you have to be careful where you buy your supplements and who you buy them from. And I just felt that MD Logic was the right company to partner with so that I could get the quality of supplements that I was looking for. But creatine monohydrate is the form of creatine that's best studied. And something that's important for people to understand is that you can't get enough of it from your diet, and just like everything else, we make less of it as we get older. I think for a lot of people, we made the association at the gym bro thing, you think about people that are using anabolic steroids. I just remind individuals that the amount that we're recommending based on the research is much smaller than what bodybuilders are using. It's not as if you're going to get puffy or start retaining water that's not going to happen because we're using therapeutic amounts as opposed to super therapeutic amounts that are used in that population of individuals.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. I think that was one of the main associations I had in my head, which is why I was miss categorizing it and its potential benefits. And I know I can also speak because I know you're working with MD Logic. So, it's going to be tested multiple times for purity and potency, and for toxins and heavy metals and mold, which is, that's really important to me. How can people get your creatine and you have code for listeners?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, the code is CYNTHIA to get 10% off. You can go to cynthiathurlow.com/new-shop/creatine/ and that will get you direct access to a really interesting page of information. And you can use code CYNTHIA to get 10% off and we'll make sure we put that in the show notes.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okie Dokie. So, we will put all of that in the show notes. I do want to share just I mentioned I was going to share something last week. I wanted to share it really quickly because I know with the timing of this, and the holidays for two reasons, all the food festivities coming up and also, I know people are looking for gifts and I think this would be the most amazing gift ever. I have something in my life now that I am obsessed with. I'm beyond obsessed. Do you have a composter?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do not. We weren't allowed to have them in our last neighborhood outside.

Melanie Avalon: So, a brand actually reached out to us wanting to partner with IF Podcast, so I'm hoping we can partner with them in the new year. We were booked with inventory for this year, but I did book them for my other show and it's Lomi. It's a composter that you can have in your kitchen. Friends. Oh, my goodness. I've been wanting to compost for so long, but it seemed very daunting. It just seemed like a big task. I have been throwing away as you guys know, I eat so many cucumbers. I throw away pounds of cucumber peels every night. And now I put all of my cucumber peels and all of my cilantro stems into this wonderful little device. It's like if you think of a crockpot, it's probably the size of two crockpots. But it's very sleek and savvy and quiet and I just have it down on the floor next to my trashcan. I throw all of my scraps in it every single night. I press the button, it runs overnight, and the next morning, it's magically turned into dirt. It is the most incredible thing. And you can put in these little pellets that will make it more microbial-rich dirt if you want to use that dirt to put in the garden or grow stuff yourself. I don't I just actually throw out the actual dirt. But it's becoming one of my favorite things. And I'm so happy it's in my life with all of the waste coming up off the holidays and are looking for a gift. This would be an amazing gift for people. I wanted to share it for so long because I've been so obsessed. So, now's the time, hopefully we'll have a code for them on the show in the new year. But for now, if you go to lowmi.com/melanieavalon, the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you $50 off. So, definitely check it out. It's honestly one of my favorite things.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's so awesome, yeah, our last HOA was really strict and so even the crunchy people in our neighborhood couldn't have composters, just silly to me. But maybe this will force me to revisit the concept because I have a husband who likes to garden. That's his thing, he loves planting fruits and vegetables and loves being out in the yard and doing yard work, and maybe that will encourage him to make good use of things that otherwise get tossed or put down the garbage disposal.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, you have it inside. You have it in your kitchen, so anybody can really have it. It's just so cool, the first time you do it too if you haven't done it before, though it's so cool to put in all of these food scraps, and then it's just this nice dirt in the morning and the dirt, it smells really good. It's fruity-smelling dirt for me at least because it's the cucumbers. And yeah, definitely check that out.

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Melanie Avalon: Okei dokei, shall we get into some listener questions for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: To start things off, we have two questions. I'm going to read both of them because they speak to a similar concept and it's something that we've talked about on the show before. But I really wanted to get Cynthia's input on this and see what she has experienced with her patients. So, the first question comes from Dylan, the subject is "Too "skin"ny." Hey, ladies love the podcast, I started listening in the middle of January this year when I started my IF journey. And I've since caught up and listened to every episode, you're both so funny and encouraging. I'm typically on a 24 routine but often find that I eat all of my food within one to two hours and I feel satisfied. I also do a 44-hour fast once every other week. Since January, I've lost over 50 pounds and have 10 more to go, but I'm at my target weight. I started at 235 pounds, the heaviest I've ever been. I'm also happy with the fact that I'm gaining muscle about as quickly as I'm burning fat by doing occasional HIIT and light weightlifting.

My question is regarding extra skin. I've lost weight so rapidly that I have a lot of extra skin, especially in my abdominal area. Will my body eventually begin to shed the extra skin through autophagy? Do you have any tips for reducing stretch marks without expensive creams or lotions? Any tips regarding this will be greatly appreciated. Keep up the great work. I recommended your podcast to several friends and coworkers and a few of them have started their own IF journeys. One of those converts is a friend of mine who is beginning his residency to become a physician. And by researching several papers and studies is now a major advocate for fasting. Regards, Dylan. First of all, I'm going to say, Dylan, that's awesome about sharing it with doctors because it's really nice to get some of this perspective into the mainstream medical community.

And we have a question from Sarah, the subject is "Toning up." Sarah says, "I've been doing IF around six weeks and I've just been introduced to your podcast, which I'm listening to on catch-up. So, apologies if my question is answered in a podcast that I haven't reached yet. I am doing IF for weight loss and anything extra from clean fasting is a bonus. With large weight loss comes saggy skin, will I have help with this over time or will I need additional exercises to target this? Loving the podcasts. All right, so Cynthia, have you had experience with this?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, so thank you to Dylan and Sarah for your questions. And yes, they are very similar in terms of people that have lost quite a bit of weight and are looking to have some improvement in the excess skin. One thing that I say to patients is in many ways when your skin stretches out, it's been stretched out for a period of time, depending on how old you are, obviously if you're a perimenopausal, menopausal it's going to be harder because as we're losing estrogen that is critically important for collagen and elastin formation. That doesn't mean it's impossible but I do find when people have lost large amounts of weight that sometimes it becomes more challenging. Now there are specific types of lasers, there are topical products that can help to some degree. But I would be remiss if I were to say that I think all of that can be ameliorated just with weight loss and fasting. But I think it really comes down to what bothers you and how aggressively you want to fix it.

I'm an advocate of people feeling comfortable in their bodies and feeling comfortable with where they are, but probably if you're feeling doing laser to help stimulate more collagen and elastin and if that's not something that's going to fix the problem or topical things are not going to be aggressive enough, then you could potentially move on to surgical interventions. And obviously, I'm not a plastic surgeon and I can't speak for them. But for a lot of my patients, they end up getting to a point where they want to surgically address this, I have just as many that are comfortable doing nonsurgical options as an aside, but as you are getting more to your ideal weights, there will be some changes to the skin, but a lot of it can be mitigated by, where we are in time and space, obviously a 30-year-old losing a bunch of weight, it's going to be-- they're going to have a better rebound effect than someone that's a little bit older. And just when women have pregnancies and they stretch their abdomens out over a period of 40 weeks, for many people they do get some rebound of that skin and really a lot of it can be genetically mediated. In a very broad context, I think that a lot of it is dependent on what you're doing and what bothers you enough? For some people, they're completely comfortable pulling on some Spanx and going about their day for others that would be problematic, but I would wait till you get closer to your goal weight before examining what options are available. What do you think Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I know Dr. Fung has talked in the past about how one of the things they noticed in their weight loss clinics with fasting patients is that the fasting patients wouldn't experience all or at least the extent of saggy skin effects that people often see with weight loss. And I think he's proposed that it could be something with the autophagy that's going on there helping to mitigate that effect. I do think that losing weight with fasting can potentially have a more beneficial effect on the excess skin and the effects like. I agree completely with everything Cynthia said. This is something where depending on how intense it is, I know Dylan was saying that he was not so much interested in expensive creams or lotions. I do think most creams or lotions are probably not going to do that much. That said I actually do think there is a benefit to some topical treatment especially because you can put these compounds directly on the skin. I would to formulate some sort of cream in the future that might help with skin tightening. That said the most effective thing is probably going to be what Cynthia mentioned with the lasers and the things like that. I actually really, really like-- I've done something called CryoSlim, it's a cold therapy application and a warm therapy that has a really nice skin tightening effect, also building muscle in the area can be great depending on where the area is filling up that area with muscle and having a beneficial effect on the perception of the skin. And especially I've talked about it before, but I've been doing a lot of EmSculpt, which is muscle stimulation-- electrical muscle stimulation and I've actually built a lot of muscle using it. And it has the added benefit if you do the Emsculpt Neo specifically.

It also has a radiofrequency application, I believe it's radiofrequency that also has a skin-tightening and fat-burning effect. And so, people might think that who am I to make a testimony about this? But I think when you do get down to the really intense lingering things, you really can tell what is working and what's not. And I've seen a huge effect on some personal areas doing the Emsculpt Neo in particular. And I really, really like that because you get the muscle-building effects, which is going to have a huge benefit for metabolic health. And then on top of that it seems to have a really nice effect on the skin surrounding the area as well. But then there are also lots of other skin tightening options and I do think there're a lot there. So, you can just like cut those different options out, again that is going to be a more expensive and committed route to go. Shall we go on to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: This is from Marilee and the subject is "Hair dyes." "Hello, do you dye your hair? What do you use? Hair dyes have all the nasty ingredients, so I'm wondering what are your thoughts on that. I am bleaching my hair monthly and I'm wondering where all the nasty stuff I'm ingesting through my skin. Also, I'm from Estonia and was shocked in a positive way that Melanie has two podcasts with my fellow Estonian, Siim Land. Best wishes," Marilee. Melanie, what are your thoughts on this?

Melanie Avalon: Also, I did not plan this last week. I know we were talking a lot about Siim Land. I am all about the nontoxic environment, cleaning up our exposure to toxins in our environment. I don't know how much I can talk about it. I feel I talk about it all the time. I'm going to be completely honest and transparent. I haven't done this with my hair dye. I'm actually blonde, I'm dirty blonde, I lighten it, I probably should look more into this, but I've just personally decided that I've cleaned up everything else so much, all of my skincare, all of my makeup, my food, my environment, the hair is the one thing where I'm just going to just do it and I'm not going to stress about it. That said, I know it is probably something in the future that hopefully I will look into more. And I did look into it little bit and interestingly I have a Facebook group you can join called Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon. And people have asked this before, somebody actually asked about this last week, which was perfect timing. And there were about 30 comments of people having suggestions. Some of the things that came up and I would recommend that you do some further research on these because again I don't have experience with them. And I didn't hardcore vet them. Well, a lot of people in the group-- I actually think that the nature of the question was somebody was saying she wanted to use henna and again this would not be for lightening. This wouldn't be for Marilee's issue. But for people who are going dark, she was saying that she was thinking of using henna and her hair girl was saying that it could have heavy metals in it and be an issue. Comments, people were saying they did not have that experience and we're not aware of that and I haven't seen that anywhere else. So, I don't know if that's an issue, but henna is often used to go darker.

There's a brand I found called Light Mountain and again, it's really hard to know if this is greenwashing or not. And by greenwashing, I mean are they just using a lot of words to make it seem really great when it's not, but I think erring on the side of at least companies that are purporting to be more nontoxic is probably a safe choice. On Light Mountain's website they say that the premier natural hair color and conditioner product line, they say they use no chemicals, no synthetic ingredients, only pure premium henna and other botanicals that they've been blending since the 1980s and are leading totally natural line in the natural products industry. So, you could look into them. Another person recommended Tints of Nature, which they actually sell on Thrive Market and according to them they say we use the lowest possible levels of PPD pigments and leave out harsh ingredients like ammonia. They say they ensure that all of the ingredients are high quality and sourced from responsible suppliers who do their bit to protect the planet. They believe that natural ingredients are better and they prefer to use kind and gentle natural and organic ingredients that give love back to your hair. They leave out synthetic nasties like ammonia parabens, resorcinol, I don't know what that is, and sulfates and they say the only time they use synthetic ingredients are when they cannot find a suitable natural alternative. That might be an option to look into. A lot of people have recommended Madison Reed, it was hard for me to evaluate if they are great or if it was greenwashing. But in any case, it's probably better than what most people are normally getting, so that might be something to look into. So those are the options that I am recommending. Cynthia, do you dye or color your hair?

Right now, I'm doing a lot of Lowlights because we're heading out of summer and I actually like a really ashy blonde. With each kiddo, my hair got darker and so I do partial highlights throughout the year. I don't use bleach because I have that ashy look and so there's a constant battle to keep that ashy look and not be gold and so bleach for me doesn't really work well. Admittedly my hair is definitely an area where I struggle a bit to find cleaner products. I use things like argon oil to help with frizz and that's obviously clean that's made in Morocco and you can find organic derivatives. But I would say the two that I'm most familiar with the clean hair dye options or cleaner, Madison Reed as Melanie also just identified and also there's a company called Arctic Fox. I have a couple of girlfriends who use that, it's vegan. According to them it works really well on lighter-colored hair, but can work well on dark hair as well. Beyond that, my hair colorist, we try to find the cleanest options that are available but this is definitely an area where I'm constantly a work in progress because I have very coarse hair and so for me using the super clean shampoos generally don't-- They don't clean my hair all that well and they don't moisturize it sufficiently so we're constantly trying different things to find cleaner options, but Arctic Fox and Madison Reed are two options and I think those are available to people that they can purchase on their own. You don't have to purchase it through your hairstylist, but yeah there's not 100% consensus on finding things that are easier on our hair and nontoxic. I know a lot of people, you're starting to see emerging trends. I'm starting to see a lot of women that are middle-aged that aren't dyeing their hair anymore. For me, I don't have a lot of gray so that wouldn't per se necessarily help me out, but I think for each one of us we have to pick our poisons if you will, and for me right now I just haven't been able to go 100% clean on shampoo or hair dye, but I definitely endeavor to keep looking for cleaner, safer options.

Melanie Avalon: So, on the shampoo, conditioner front. I do love, love, love, Beautycounter's shampoo and conditioner. It doesn't weigh my hair down. I just really love how it makes my hair feel. They used to be called Free & Clear. I think they're now called Vanicream, but they make a completely unscented allergen-friendly shampoo and conditioner. I like their shampoo. I like to pair actually their shampoo with the Beautycounter conditioner. Because I find if I do the Beautycounter conditioner and shampoo sometimes, it's too moisturizing for me. I also love their hairspray. I wish Beautycounter would make a hairspray, but I really, really like, like I said I think it's called Vanicream now. I really liked their Free & Clear hairspray, it has no perfumes and works really well. So, I'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. I can't believe I used to spray my whole face with all this hairspray that had all those perfumes and compounds in them. I shudder thinking about it. Now whenever I go get my hair done, she always wants to bring out the hairspray at the end. I'm like no, don't. Don't spray that on me.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it's challenging and I don't pass judgment on people that are navigating how to make better options. It's interesting we're doing a webinar on Sunday night talking about cleaner options for your home and for your makeup. And I'm very transparent and just share with people that there are some things that are easy for me and some things are harder, and you just do the best that you can. And if you're avoiding 80% of what's out there, you're doing pretty darn good. So, don't beat yourself up.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I have that experience recently because I really wanted to try eyelash extensions. I was going on a trip to Austin and so I wanted to just try them and not have to deal with mascara. And I was researching it I was okay, well, this is going to require chemicals. But you just got to choose what you-- the cost benefit of everything. I did them, they were super fun, I will say that I took them out and I freaked out by how much my eyelashes seemed shorter. And it's hard to know if they actually were gone or if they just seemed so different compared to the extensions. But then that's the situation where-- so the way I start with eyelash extensions, putting them on the application process seemed more a one-off compared to a chronic administration. When I took them off, I was I've got to find a growth serum. I really wanted to find a clean one. And oh, my goodness, I am obsessed, friends, get this now or if you need gifts for anybody. I tried DIME Eyelash Growth Serum, it's amazing and that's something if you're going to be using it, you're probably using it every single day. So, it was important for me to find a clean version of it. The growth, I'm so excited because now I honestly think I'm going to have fuller more lush lashes than I did even before the extensions because I'm using this every single day, I'm just going to use this every day for the rest of my life. So, if you go to melanieavalon.com/dime the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will actually get you a discount sitewide but definitely try that lash growth serum. But yes, I definitely agree with you Cynthia about-- do the best you can, do a cost-benefit analysis, and just do what works best in your life.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely, and I've had good luck with castor oil, that can be helpful for people that feel their eyelashes aren't as vibrant as they once were. I know for my eyes are super sensitive, so I could never be one of those people that could do eyelash extensions. But when I do special events, I'll do the individual eyelashes that are just temporary and I'll do those, and I can always feel like by day two my eyes are, "Please get this stuff off." I think a lot of it has to do with the glue. I certainly have had some friends who've done really well with eyelash extensions and others that have struggled a bit, so lots of options there for sure.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm really glad I did them, they were super fun. If I hadn't done them, I wouldn't have looked into this growth serum. And now I'm just really excited, it's like I'm going to have the most luscious eyelashes ever naturally. I had one more comment "Oh, castor oil," castor oil just makes me want to cry. When I was in my really-- my face when I was really struggling with constipation, people will recommend castor oil to fix that. Have you ever taken castor oil? Have you ever--

Cynthia Thurlow: I never have.

Melanie Avalon: I can't even think about it. It is the worst? It is the most foul thing I have ever put in my body, the taste of it is just mm-hmm. Yes, castor oil makes me shudder. But that's different than you're saying putting it on your eyelashes.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Very cool.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I have some friends that have had really good luck with that.

Melanie Avalon: Nice. If it didn't make me want to cry, I would try that.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, we don't want to induce crying, that would be bad.

Melanie Avalon: Listeners, though, can check out the show notes. We'll put links to everything that we talked about. I feel bad for our editor, Brianna for this one because there're so many show notes to create. Okay, shall we go on to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Kelly. The subject is "Cortisol." And Kelly says "Hi ladies, thanks for all that you do for the podcast. It has helped me and so many others. I've been listening since episode 3." Wow. "And look forward to the new podcast every week. I've been intermittent fasting for six months now and loving it. One side effect I've noticed is being easily startled in the afternoon before I break my fast. I sometimes have one cup of coffee early in the morning, but notice it on days that I don't have coffee too. Does this have to do with cortisol levels, can you speak to the effect of fasting on cortisol levels as a whole?" Thanks.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Kelly, there're many things that could impact how you're feeling and when we talk about coffee, quality is certainly important. Much a lot of crops, coffee is prone to exposure to mycotoxins or mold. When people sometimes feel differently on days that they're consuming coffee or not consuming coffee, I always think about contaminants. But obviously, if your body is dependent on the caffeine that could also explain why you are feeling like you're having a slump in the afternoon and yes, could that be mediated by cortisol, it could also be mediated by what you're breaking your fast with. So, there're many nuances here. Cortisol is definitely influencing many things that go on in the body, cortisol goes up in response to our circadian biology. And when we get up in the morning, that's when cortisol should be highest. it ebbs and flows throughout the day, and is lowest in the evening, except for our unicorn co-host, Melanie Avalon. But certainly, in me that's how you know, my energy is greatest in the morning and early afternoon, and then throughout the rest of the day, it's waxing and waning, but still fairly consistent. But you have to think about fasting as a hormetic stressor. If your body perceives it's too much stress, it can increase your cortisol in a non-beneficial way. And so, I think you really have to take into account many things when considering the net impact on fasting, it can be impacted by the foods you choose to consume, how's your sleep, what's your stress management style like? What kind of exercise are you doing? Where are you in your menstrual cycle? All of which can be impacted negatively or positively by when or how much fasting you are embracing? I think really sitting down and getting nuanced about how caffeine influences how you feel in the afternoon, you mentioned easily startled, yes, caffeine is a stimulant, so some people are slow metabolizers of coffee or caffeine and others are faster metabolizers of caffeine and so that can also play a role as well. But I think looking at it comprehensively getting a little bit nuanced and also understanding, not wanting to overfast because that can impact your cortisol, understanding where you're on your menstrual cycle and how is stress and sleep and nutrition impacting your cortisol as well? What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: So, speaking to the fact that she has this startling effect if she has coffee or not. It sounds like she's having this wired feeling regardless of the caffeine. And it probably is related, I would guess, to fasting and being in that sympathetic state. So, the fasted state does upregulate hormones and neurotransmitters that are energetic and make you active, so norepinephrine, epinephrine, cortisol. Yes, that startling feeling, coffee or not that you experience with fasting definitely could be playing a role. As far as the effects of fasting on cortisol levels. We actually talked about this in a lot of detail on an episode where we were discussing a study, I think it's when we were talking about a blog post that Dr. Sarah Ballantyne had done on this, and she referenced a study looking at the effects of fasting on cortisol levels. And, actually, I think it was the effects of later eating--fasting with later eating on cortisol levels. And the fascinating thing about that study is I went and looked at it and it seemed that having a fasting window during the day with eating later, really did create the cortisol pattern that we'd want to see with the caveat of like Cynthia saying over fasting and having too much cortisol, but basically, our natural cortisol rhythm, we should get a bump in the morning with the dawn effect. And the purpose is to prep the body with fuel for the day, release glycogen from the liver, so you can get up and go and as a hunter-gatherer get up and go find your meal. It's normal to see a cortisol bump in the morning and then it should slowly taper throughout the day.

It seems that eating later can further stimulate that pattern where you have higher cortisol in the morning and lower cortisol at night. I think fasting can pair really well with cortisol levels. But again, you do want to be careful, Cynthia was saying that you're not going too much with it and releasing too much cortisol not being able to have a beneficial cortisol pattern. It's also interesting. I've interviewed Dr. Michael Breus on my show multiple times. He points out that most people should have these normal cortisol levels, but there's one chronotype-- one sleep chronotype that he calls the dolphin which I am and we're unique in that we naturally get a cortisol bump at night, regardless. I think that's actually a reason that I do so well with eating at night is because I can counter that cortisol bump and because when I eat my main, my big meal, I find that it really reduces my cortisol levels. Well, I don't measure them, but I'm assuming it does. That's the experience that I personally experience. And so that's one reason that I really like my fasting pattern for me personally with my cortisol levels. But yes, the startling it is, I can definitely see how fasting would be encouraging that response.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is where that piece and bio-individuality really plays in. As an example, Melanie and I are recording this podcast at 5:45 PM, which means she's just getting revved up and my body is okay, we're going to be in bed in a couple of hours. And I think, really leaning into our physiology and doing a degree of experimentation to find out what supports your body. I know I have plenty of patients and clients that do better with tea as opposed to coffee in many ways, there can sometimes be less caffeine in some of the bitter teas. I would experiment to see how you respond to that. You can certainly, depending on where you are in your menstrual cycle, you may respond more readily and more easily to longer fast, shorter fast, etc.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's a great suggestion. Yeah, a lot of people do well with the green tea and also a lot of people, I've seen people pair theanine with caffeine and find that it can mitigate some of that so that people can have a less stressful response to the caffeine. So that might be something to try.

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Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. This is from Lynn, subject is "Jetlag." "I love love, love your show. I'm working my way through your previous episodes. It really helped me the first couple of weeks of intermittent fasting to listen to your shows daily. I started on January 1, 2018 and I'm down 19 pounds and counting. I'm currently doing one meal a day. My question is regarding travel and eating to prevent jetlag. I heard about a study from some, can't remember which one, a university that to start eating a day before on the time of the place you're going to prevent jetlag. Have you ladies traveled far? And how do you do with jetlag? I'm in Hawaii to meet up with my husband who is stationed in Japan for two years. It's a quick trip. Intermittent fasting makes it easy when you're traveling for sure. I really struggled with jetlag yesterday, I also use melatonin and a homeopathic med to help. I still struggle with it. Even in Hawaii, I still want to eat at my scheduled time in Virginia. I am going to Japan this summer, who knows what or how I'll feel in Japan? Any thoughts on food, intermittent fasting, and jetlag? Thank you for all you do. You are an inspiration for all of us out there trying to make this work."

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, thank you, Lynn for your question. I used to travel internationally, I mean, relatively a lot, every year mostly. I haven't done that since I've started fasting. I've just traveled domestically, but I can still speak to it. And I'll be super curious to hear Cynthia's thoughts because she's traveling all the time, I feel internationally. There's been a really interesting study on jetlag and fasting specifically and how fasting can help basically mitigate the effects of jetlag. And the way the setup is, is rather than eating before, she's talking about starting with the way she's eating before traveling, they advocate just once you get to the new place it's fasting and then eating on the time zone of the new place once you get there. So, personally just traveling domestically, so obviously, the biggest difference would only be a three-hour difference. I found that I have zero issues. Whenever I travel between LA and East Coast regardless of which way I'm going, I just fast as I normally do, and then I eat my dinner in my new location. And it immediately sets me back to that wherever I am, I have zero issues, zero.

Our food and our circadian rhythm regarding our food intake can heavily influence our sleep circadian rhythm. Because if you think about it, you could be completely awake and then you could eat a massive meal and get really tired or you could be exhausted and fasted and hungry and not be able to fall asleep. There's a big effect on our food intake and our sleep. It could be a really nice hack to use fasting and then just eat on the time zone of we're going. But again, I haven't done this internationally. Cynthia, what are your thoughts?

Cynthia Thurlow: This is such a great question. Because I am a world traveler. This is one of my great joys in life is traveling. So gosh, in the past 18 months, we've been to Africa, we've been to Europe, I do a lot of West Coast travel. I do find for me I just get on the plane and I generally just fast and I stay hydrated. And then as soon as I arrived, so I try to get on the schedule of wherever I'm going. So, if I arrive in the morning, what typically happens when you arrive in Europe, you're arriving in there morning, I will try to stay fasted until lunchtime, which is generally when I break my fast. Obviously, when I've traveled to Africa, most recently, you arrive in the evening. And I typically-- if I'm hungry, I'll eat but if I'm not hungry, I'll just go to bed and then the next morning, I'll get up and I'll eat around the time I would at home, even though it's the middle of the night at home. But I think when you really look at the research, it takes about one day per hour of time difference. So usually, a solid week in Europe when it's six plus hours ahead and in Africa, I would imagine Japan is going to take a bit longer because that's more than 12 hours I believe ahead of the East Coast. But obviously, it depends on where your husband is stationed. I think that you can absolutely integrate fasting into helping support jetlag, I think staying really well hydrated and trying to get light exposure on your retinas is going to be important. The other thing I've learned is that I travel really well when I go East and I always struggle a bit more when I go West, I can actually travel more easily to Europe or Africa. And I struggle more when I go to California and I suspect it's because being ahead is easier than being behind.

So, my body at 8 o'clock at night is saying it's really late for me, "Don't laugh Melanie." 11 o'clock at night is late for me, but in my mind even though it's 8:00 PM pacific standard time my body is really struggling to stay awake. I think just understanding it's going to take a period of time, it could take up to two weeks, you may be actually in Japan for that amount of time, so it may take a bit of time to acclimate. And really just being open to the fact that you're going to have a couple of days where you're probably going to drag. But the one thing that I've learned that's been really helpful is staying hydrated, resting when I need to, and then making sure I'm eating the proper macros. Again, protein, vegetables work really well for me regardless of where I am, if I start eating a bunch of junk and I start drinking a lot of alcohol, which I don't do, that would definitely worsen the jetlag for me, so hopefully, that's helpful. And enjoy your time in Japan.

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny, that really speaks to the bio-individuality aspect because for me traveling from Atlanta to LA, I love it because it just gives me a longer fast, it basically adds on, I guess, three additional hours of fasting and I often think every night anyways, "Oh, I could fast for another three hours." So, it's my dream situation. I'm curious, did you have a different experience of jetlag and all of that before you were fasting?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have been, so this is our-- I say everyone has priorities and travel has always been hours. I struggled more with jetlag when I was in my 20s. By the time I got to my 30s, so obviously my 20s and 30s. I wasn't fasting. When I got into my 30s, I remember when we went to Greece for our honeymoon, I was miserable trying to stay awake. So, do I think that fasting probably has helped, potentially, I think I'm also much more aware of the net impact of lifestyle and how that plays in with jetlag. And, I probably walked around chronically dehydrated for years, which probably exacerbated my jetlag. So yeah, I can honestly tell you that I was that person who walked around feeling I was drunk for days. And it was because I just couldn't get over that sleep pump. And, obviously, I would say I've traveled pretty effortlessly since fasting, largely because I understand how to fuel my body. And I think that makes a big difference. And honestly, more often than not, when I'm in an airport or when I'm traveling even domestically, I generally will stay hydrated. I'll drink a lot of electrolytes, but I'll just fast in anticipation of wherever I'm going to. That's a good question.

Melanie Avalon: Fasting is such a wonderful hack and tool for travel I think and not having to deal with airplane food and not feeling chained to having to deal with the meal aspect of it. And yeah, I just find it so, so helpful.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely, and I think it's interesting that one of the standard questions that I think we both get on social media is what do you do when you travel? So, I always travel with the if in need these are the things I'll eat, but I always travel with, Paleovalley beef jerky. I always travel with salted Macadamia nuts, because if I get in a position where I'm really hungry, I don't want to eat crap and most airports here in the US there's a lot of junk, I mean, occasionally you get unicorn airports but generally, there's just a lot of processed junk so, I always have that available if I need it. But it's easy just to stay hydrated. I mean I used to carry glass water bottles and depends on how much traveling I'm doing but now sometimes I'll just go in and buy, I know it's trying to find the happy medium of do I want to carry around a glass water bottle for four or five days or do I want to just buy a bottle of FIJI water and use some electrolytes in it and just forgive myself for the exposure to plastics and just be done with it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, goes back to deciding what's worth it and what's the cost-benefit and I will comment on the melatonin piece. I'm a huge fan of melatonin, I had concerns about it down-regulating melatonin production and whether or not I should take it nightly, but learning more about it, especially reading Dr. John Lieurance's book, I think he calls it Melatonin Miracle. I learned a lot about melatonin and realized it has a lot of antioxidant effects and people do high-dose melatonin supplementation and I've interviewed Dr. Kirk Parsley about this and he has a little bit of melatonin in his sleep remedy supplement which can be really, really amazing. Oh, by the way, I definitely recommend that supplement if you are looking for something to help you naturally fall asleep without pharmaceutical aids. We can get it at melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy and the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off. I think if I were to travel something where I had to just make myself fall asleep because of the timing issue, I would definitely probably do some high dosing of melatonin. I think Peter Attia has talked about this and I think he's more hesitant about melatonin, but he did say on a podcast I listened to recently that he will do the high-dose melatonin route to adjust to time zones.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's interesting, I interviewed Dr. Kyle Gillett, he is a functional medicine provider and we talked about melatonin because to me I use melatonin and it is a master antioxidant. Yes, it can help with sleep, but there are so many benefits and for people North of 40 in particular, many of them have very depleted amounts of melatonin in their bodies. And so, thinking of it from that perspective is very different. But he actually said in all of his patients North of 40 that he has not opposed to them utilizing supplemental melatonin. I think it can be helpful for those that are traveling. But I also think from the perspective of just aging in general. I do find for a lot of my patients and clients, they do very nicely if we do testing, and we confirm that their melatonin levels are pretty low, their urinary metabolites on the Dutch that using a titrated, meaning we go up and we come back down, we'll use a titrated approach to melatonin. I've had some pretty incredible results with utilizing that and I do have a very-- and maybe Melanie, I can talk about this on another podcast, I have a very stepwise approach to sleep support. And I'm very serious about my sleep, very serious about my sleep. So, there are definite products that I think can be very beneficial, melatonin can be one of them. I really personally like MD Logic's product. They're actually reformulating their melatonin, so it's going to be 100% clean, no rice flour or anything that. But that is probably my favorite melatonin to utilize and it's very potent. I can give the example that Designs for Health has a product called Melatonin SRT, sustained release. When I first tried the MD Logic product, I took the same amount except it was so much more potent the next morning when I woke up, I could barely open up my eyes. I remind people to go low and slow and the MD Logic product, which I know, both Melanie and I, both have codes, mine is CYNTHIA to give you 10% off, but melatonin is definitely a supplement that I think is really invaluable to use. And for those of us that are perimenopause or menopausal, it can be really very helpful for sleep support.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up. And especially with melatonin, that's one of the studies where they've done studies reviewing, I found one where they I think looked at 30. They looked at, I think 30 bottles of melatonin and it was around a dozen or 15 or so brands. And they tested for the actual amount of melatonin compared to what the bottle said and it was shocking. Shocking how far off they were. And this was mainstream brands. So, definitely finding a product that you really, so that MD Logic Melatonin definitely would be one to try. I think I shared this before but I think the thing that sold the deal for me-- I know I've shared this before. The thing that sold the deal for me about "Okay, it's okay I can be taking melatonin," is that night that I accidentally thought I was taking digestive enzymes and I was actually taking melatonin. They were in the same bottle and they look the exact same and I took, I don't even know how many milligrams I took. And I slept so well and because I didn't know I've had high dosed melatonin. I wonder if I would have felt groggy. How much of the placebo effect might have happened? I wonder if I would have felt it more if I realized, but I didn't realize until the next night that I had taken so much. And so, after that I was okay, it's fine, but melatonin.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's good stuff.

Melanie Avalon: All right, well, we'll put links to all of that in the show notes, which will be at ifpodcast.com/episode294. If you would to submit your own questions for the show you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. And you can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and I think that is all the things. Anything from you Cynthia before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I think this has been a particularly enjoyable episode. Lots of good topics.

Melanie Avalon: I agree. So incredible and I'll let you go and wind down your day and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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LINKS

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Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
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Welcome to Episode 293 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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Listener Q&A: Kasi - Liquid Chlorophyll during fast // Window Flexibility // Anti-Inflammatory Foods

The Melanie Avalon biohacking Podcast Episode #43 - Teri Cochrane

Episode 56: The Cochrane Method and Bioindividuality

Ep. 201-The Connection Between Genes, Detoxification, Hormones, and Immune Function

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The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #149 - Chris Masterjohn

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #61 - Dr. Cate Shanahan

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Listener Q&A: Justine - signs of ketosis

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 293 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished beef for life plus $20 off, yes free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life plus $20 off. We are so, so honored to be sponsored by ButcherBox. They make it so, so easy to get high quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage breed pork, that’s really hard to find by the way, and wild-caught sustainable and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. When you become a member, you're joining a community focused on doing what's better for everyone. That includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect, and enjoying deliciously better meals together. There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to transparency regarding grazing practices, what is actually in our food, how animals are being treated. I did so much research on ButcherBox, you can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. But I am so grateful for all of the information that I learned about their company, all of their beef is 100% grass-fed and grass-finished. That's really hard to find. They work personally with all the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves but the planet. This is so important to me. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. 

If you recently saw a documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy, you might be a little bit nervous about eating seafood. Now, I understand why ButcherBox makes it so, so clear and important about how they work with the seafood industry. Everything is checked for transparency, for quality, and for sustainable raising practices you want their seafood. The value is incredible, the average cost is actually less than $6 per meal and it's so easy. Everything ships directly to your door. I am a huge steak lover. Every time I go to a restaurant, I usually order the steak. Oh, my goodness, the ButcherBox steaks are amazing. I remember the first time I had one and I just thought, “This is honestly one of the best steaks I've ever had in my entire life.” On top of that, did you know that the fatty acid profile of grass-fed, grass-finished steaks is much healthier for you than conventional steaks? And their bacon, for example, is from pastured pork, and sugar and nitrate free. How hard is that to find? And ButcherBox has an incredible deal for our audience. For a limited time, you can get free grass-fed grass-finished ground beef for life in every box of your subscription plus $20 off, yes, new members can get free grass-fed grass-finished ground beef for life plus $20 off when you go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast for free grass-fed grass-finished ground beef for life plus $20 off and we'll put all this information in the show notes. 

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means, when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so, you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. 

And lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare, a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 293 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie, how are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good, I just checked when this is going to air. I wish I could ask you, how was your Thanksgiving but it has not happened as of right now. But I am super curious since this is the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. How do you tackle Thanksgiving with fasting?

Cynthia Thurlow: This year is a good example of--it's just the four of us, which I'm super excited about because it's really only the second holiday we've spent in our new home. I don't alter a whole lot to be honest with you, we eat earlier in the day, we usually eat by 3 or 4 o'clock. My teenagers will go back for seconds a few hours later, but I'm generally not hungry. I may have like a light meal to break my fast and then really lean into protein and veggies and that's one of the few times in the year I will enjoy pie like I make a really good apple pie. And there's something about even gluten-free crust that I love which is why I don't normally eat pie, but I will allow myself to enjoy and savor every single bite.

I think that I don't treat Thanksgiving any differently than really any other day because I don't alter the way I eat too much. And it's not to say that I can't, I just don't feel good when I eat certain types of foods. So, my kids get a lot of the starchy stuff like stuffing and potatoes and I'm the one that leans into like Brussel sprouts and other things that we might have alongside, the last couple of years we've been doing tenderloin and not turkey but ButcherBox very nicely sent me a lovely turkey. So, we will be having some turkey and some tenderloin for Thanksgiving.

But it's also the one holiday that my husband gets really into and wants to make everything himself. All these women listening, they're like, "Oh my gosh, I wish my husband would do that." He gets a little controlling about his kitchen on Thanksgiving, I really play an ancillary role on Thanksgiving and I'm completely fine with that because he's a really good cook. But it's sometimes an odd dynamic because I think we're kind of conditioned as a society that it's the woman in the kitchen all day long. And actually, it's my husband like up early for the bird and he's all about making the stuffing. And every year he perfects his stuffing and he makes this is horrible, Chex Mix. And so, Chex Mix is like a crack in our house, my husband and my kids will eat it till it is gone. But I jokingly tell them, they need a feed bag just to put the strap on over the back of their neck and just let them eat it all day long, and they could not be happier. There's a lot of feasting in our house. It's usually a pretty relaxed day. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Similar to you, I personally don't really adjust much. Because doing my one-meal-a-day approach that I do. I literally am feasting already every single day. And, for example, it was my birthday this week, and a friend came in town and we went to dinner. And I got two entrees. It was because I wanted to-- I couldn't decide, I wanted both steak and fish, so he was like just get both. But I was like, "Okay, I'll have like a bite of the steak and eat the fish, but I ate all of it." [laughs] which was fabulous. And that's an addition to the appetizers and all of that. But the point being is, I am so accustomed to eating large amounts of meat at night and protein, so on Thanksgiving nothing really changes much because the foods I want to eat what you were saying about, the foods that make you feel good and the foods that don't, I would like to eat a lot of other different foods that would also taste good, but they would also make me feel not so well. Or I can eat the foods that taste just as good to me but make me feel great. On Thanksgiving, I would still do my one-meal-a-day type thing and just eat a ton of Turkey as my meat.

Cynthia Thurlow: And I think it's interesting because for me personally, this is what my life has evolved into. And I'm completely happy in the space. But I do know, when we have like family or friend's events, people always kind of look at me and they're like, "Well, you're not going to have this and you're not going to have that? And I'm like, "No, because I actually don't feel good when I eat X or Y. And I'm totally fine with you eating X or Y. It's just not what I'm leaning into. I think it's also like being respectful. Sometimes it can be very triggering when people see you eat a particular way, then I always say there's no judgment, I just know that I'm at a stage in my life where it's not worth it for me to eat foods that make me feel badly. Like if I were to have a couple of glasses of wine, guess what my sleep is going to be terrible. I'm going to get hot sweats, night sweats, and I'm going to wake up in the morning and my Oura Ring is going to be barking at me.

From my perspective, it's a cost-benefit, like what makes me feel good, what allows me to wake up on the day after Thanksgiving, and whether we're doing a 5k, we try to do things that are active, and you're asking what the prevailing strategy is, move my body, try to lift if not on Thanksgiving, the day before or the day after, stay really well hydrated, and then choose the things that you want to splurge on and typically mine is apple pie. [laughs] I love apple pie, I love apples in general. But I love, I make a really good apple pie. It's very basic, but it's really good, and my kids laugh because I'll stand there at the counter, and I'm just eating the crust. Like I wouldn't normally eat crust I am like, "Oh, this is good."

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, one of the things I really like about fasting though, in general, with the holidays, like before fasting, I would have a lot of fear. I would love the holidays and I would love the food, but I would have a lot of dread or concern about overeating, weight gain, overindulging, and it was this weird blend of the pure excitement and joy of the food and also dreading the aftermath. And now I never really experience that, like holidays I just genuinely look forward to the whole food experience with minimal, I mean really honestly, no negative effects.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I mean, to me, especially because I have teenagers and I recognize that time is fleeting with them. I've always loved our nuclear family and prior to the pandemic, we always spent holidays with our extended family. And now things have changed a little bit and that's okay. But for me, it's really the joy of having conversations with my kids because as teenagers they spend a lot of time connecting with their friends or disconnecting from their parents. And so, for me we get into these discussions of "Are we going to do like a Harry Potter marathon, are we going to do Lord of the Rings, which that usually sends my kids into orbit?" Trying to find ways that we can connect after eating, "Are we going to play football or am I going to watch them play football?" By just finding things that we can do to connect together that don't per se disconnect us more, because I think it's very easy in our culture to be around other humans but be so disconnected like people that are on their phones constantly. And I'm certainly not perfect. I'm not by any means am I suggesting that, but I really try on holidays to be very connected and very present. And that to me is something I'm much more cognizant of now than maybe I was 10 years ago with my kids.

Melanie Avalon: Have you ever used one of those phone jail things?

Cynthia Thurlow: Not per se, although the other day, interestingly enough, my 15-year-old who is my more challenging child I will say, came home from some team practice. I know his blood sugar was low because he was hangry, he was just really grumpy. I had asked him to help take the dogs out and I got a rash of reaction to that. And because he was so disrespectful, I just said, "Well, I have your phone, and so I hid his phone for two days." So yes, we do have phone jail but said child is pretty clever and so he found his phone in the midst of phone jail and took it. And then he got another day added on to not having a phone. So, yes, we do Institute phone jail but not per se at the table. Usually, phone jail is when an infraction has been incurred and I'm trying to think of what will hurt him the most, [laughter] what is going to be the most unpleasant punishment I can give him. I'll just take your phone, and he feels like he's lost an appendage.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to talk about one other thing, but instead I'll save it for next week. And instead, I have to comment on the phone. When I was driving to dinner--Has your phone SIM card ever decided it's not there? Like your phone is like "can't find SIM card?"

Cynthia Thurlow: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. It's crazy. Basically, your phone loses all capability, it can't be a phone, it can't make calls, it can't find the internet, and I was driving and I just realized how dependent we are on our phones because I was all dressed up and had all my stuff. And I was halfway to Midtown Atlanta. And my phone was not getting the internet. And I was like, "I don't know how to find this hotel." I don't know how to get there [laughs]. I was like what am I going to do? Pull off to a gas station and be like, how do I get to [laughs] Four Seasons, it was crazy, it made me realize just how reliant we are and then I just felt so useless that I was not going to be able to navigate, somewhere where I had gone before multiple times.

Cynthia Thurlow: I will just interject that. My mom lives in a rural part of Maryland on a beautiful lake and when I was coming back most recently, the way that I come from Western Maryland to get back to Virginia, I have to go through West Virginia for a brief scooch amount of time. Well, I went from having ways to having no ways, and then not knowing where I was because I had only gone this route once before. And at one point, I was driving for an hour with no ways, no Wi-Fi, no nothing.

Melanie Avalon: Did you feel naked? I felt so naked. "Oh, I felt naked."

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I was like contemplating how do I find a police station and talk to them about the fact that I didn't think to print out directions because why would I have needed them? You start to realize how dependent we are on technology for sure.

Melanie Avalon: It's the craziest feeling and I was like, "Oh, this is what it was like back in the day." I bet people were a lot better with keeping appointments. Because if you don't show up, I was like "They're going to think I'm dead."

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I was explaining to my kids, we used to have MapQuest or we used to have these little Garmin's in our cars, and you would update them periodically, and my kids were like, what? And I was like, "Yes, you had to print things out or write them out." I was like, "That's how old school mom and dad are?

Melanie Avalon: When I was growing up had to print out from MapQuest. So good times.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm glad to know you recall MapQuest.

Melanie Avalon: I was right on the cusp.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. We represent many generations on this podcast.

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Melanie Avalon: Would you like to jump into everything for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: To start things off, we have some questions actually four questions that we can do rapid fire and they are from Casey. The subject is "Liquid chlorophyll during the fast, window flexibility, anti-inflammatory foods." And Casey says, "I have a few questions shared here." Number one, can I consume liquid chlorophyll in my water while in a fasted state or is this a no, no?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, well, I mean it's a plant. I think it depends on how it's processed because chlorophyll does not taste good and most chlorophyll that I have used with patients has some sugar, dextrose, etc., in it to make it palatable. In most instances, if you're looking at an ingredient list, it very likely has sweeteners in it and therefore I would not recommend that for a clean fast. Do you have an opinion?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, especially after interviewing. I know you are friends with Teri Cochrane, she's wonderful. She wrote a book called, is it Wildatarian?

Cynthia Thurlow: Wildatarian? Yep.

Melanie Avalon:  I had her on The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. You've probably had her on your show as well, I'm guessing?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have, twice.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. She has fascinating thoughts on chlorophyll supplementation. I searched high and low to find a chlorophyll-- like a liquid chlorophyll supplement that didn't have lot of additives. The closest I could find was, it's mostly pure chlorophyll but has glycerin. It doesn't taste sweet. It tastes very grassy actually. But to be on the safe side, I would always just kind of have it to open my window. The chlorophyll itself is not a problem. But like Cynthia said, it's hard to find-- maybe I should make a chlorophyll. "Oh, my goodness." Okay, friends, stay tuned. I do think it's really wonderful. I would err on the side of keeping it in your eating window unless you can find a pure version, which, good luck.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's hard to find and it doesn't taste good. That's actually why oftentimes it is sweetened. I oftentimes will recommend chlorophyll for constipation.

Melanie Avalon: Hmm, nice. Teri recommends it for actually iron levels.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, I love Teri. I've had her on the podcast twice. And she always brings such a unique lens to looking at health and wellness, really a unique lens, like the Cochrane Method is her trademarked method and I've learned so much through her.

Melanie Avalon: She's really wonderful. Because she's the one who talks about the amyloid formation in conventional agriculture. I bring this up every time I interview somebody in the-- I don't know what words to use, I just brought it up the other day, interviewing the founders of regenerative pastures, which is kind of like a ButcherBox system, but they're US based only and they have a lot of really amazing options. But actually, that interview was amazing, but anytime I've interviewed somebody where we're talking about like conventional agriculture versus regenerative and holistic, I bring up Teri's theory, which basically is that the stress levels of the raising conditions create these truncated proteins and conventional meat that has a very inflammatory potential, which nobody else is talking about. So, I find that very cool.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and she's not a big fan of chicken and a few other things, but chicken is, I think the basis of a lot of people's diets, and by no means am I telling everyone to panic and stop eating chicken. But just to give it some pause and think that has a lot to do with her desire to encourage people to eat more wildatarian proteins, she certainly has had a huge influence on us. We got very creative during the pandemic.

Melanie Avalon: She's amazing. Okay, so much for rapid fire. Casey's, second question, she has some questions about supplements taken in the fasted state or during the eating window. We can just go through these, D3, B12, iron, so D3?

Cynthia Thurlow: Fat-soluble vitamins, vitamins A, D, E, and K, I generally recommend that you take with a meal so that they can slow the absorption, B12 provided that it's clean. That to me is benign. Iron, I generally like people to take with food for a variety of reasons. But I understand why people ask these questions because they are trying to simplify their lives, but I would say iron and D3 taken in a fed state, B12 or B vitamins I think are fine provided that they're clean taken in a non-fed state. What do you think?

Melanie Avalon: Agreed, the only caveat I would provide B12 similar to chlorophyll, it is water soluble, so it can be taken completely fasted but it can also be hard to find versions without the additives, they're usually always flavored, and also with B12, it can be really important, especially given your MTHFR status to get a properly methylated form, so Methylcobalamin version. And then my iron caveat would be-- and I struggle with iron regulation, really bad, I just don't seem to make ferritin, I do but there's just some issue there with my conversion, I think. I am very in tune with iron supplementation. I personally will use desiccated spleen as well as kidney which has some iron, I use ancestral supplements, I do have a code for them. If you go to melanieavalon.com/ancestral, the code AVALON10 will get you 10% off. I take their kidney every night, I take their spleen a few times a week and I take that with food. I don't take the spleen every day because I found-- researched this and I've talked with my hematologist about it. If you take iron supplements constantly trying to up your iron level, your iron actually has an iron regulation system where it downregulates its absorption if you're taking in a lot consistently. On the contrary, if you're not taking a lot, it will upregulate its iron absorption. It can be nice to do a punctuated approach.

Another option is chelated Iron because iron can be very constipating. I love Elle Russ-- I'm actually having her on my show for the third time coming up soon and I was just recently on her show The Elle Russ Show. She is very in tune with iron supplementation because it can really relate to thyroid issues. And she's a big fan of Chelated Iron by Bluebonnet and that has to be taken on an empty stomach. The reviews for that are very, very positive for people saying they are able to raise their iron and don't get constipated. So, that's another option, but that would be on an empty stomach.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, the Chelated Iron is really key. I think for many years I was on Chelated Iron and there's nothing worse than being put on iron. And then if you're not constipated, then all of a sudden you can't go to the bathroom. So, Chelated Iron tends to be much easier on the gut. And I would agree with you that anemia in general and low ferritin levels, low iron levels can be very confounding. And it's not at all uncommon for women really at any stage of life to have issues surrounding this, so a commonly recommended supplement.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, the iron issues are one of the banes of my existence? I'm really excited actually because I'm going to be interviewing Morley Robbins for his book, Cu-RE Your Fatigue, The Root Cause and How To Fix it On Your Own. And apparently, it's mostly about iron regulation. I'm excited to see what I learn about that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's interesting, your podcast about glutathione came out today. And I was like, "Oh," I'm knee-deep in podcast prep for two podcasts next week. But I was like, I really need to listen to that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's so good. I was on the fence about glutathione IVs and glutathione pushes. Now I'm fairly convinced they're a waste. It's just in and out of your body and it doesn't even get absorbed really. I don't know if he's a doctor, I think he's just a researcher and a pharmacist, not just? But I think he's a researcher and a pharmacist. He wrote a book called The Glutathione Revolution. He does have his own proprietary topical glutathione where they have studies showing how it is absorbed in the half-life in the body. I've been using that every single day and night since reading the book and interviewing him, I'm sold. I think glutathione is so important, supporting it naturally, and then if you supplement using his version, I feel like I'm just giving all the codes. But his version that I've been using is melanieavalon.com/auro A-U-R-O is his brand, and then the code MELANIEAVALON should get you a discount.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's interesting because Teri Cochrane is not a fan of IV pushes or IV glutathione drips. As we keep plugging Teri Cochrane that's definitely really aligned with my conversations I've had with her. But I'll definitely have to dive into that podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Let me know what you think. I think I wanted to believe it, because, you want to think, "Oh, I can get some glutathione IVs or pushes and do some good," but it's really like I said, in and out. And then after reading it, I reached out to my friend James Clement, he wrote a book called The Switch, and he's a dear friend. And I really, really respect him. And I really feel like I can always get a very unbiased perspective because he does have a book, but he's not selling anything. He runs a lab that studies longevity. I asked him and he's like, yeah, there's no point in taking glutathione, it was when I was actually feeling really sick. And I was texting him. I was like, "What do I do? Try to get NAD." I was like, "I'm going to go get glutathione" and he's like, "Don't get the glutathione, it's not going to help." So, tangents.

Okay, and then another question from Casey, she said, "She's considering a window of 12 to 8 o'clock, but she feels on a Saturday or weekend that she might need more flexibility due to long runs or social engagements." So you have recommendations on timing to make the weekends work?

Cynthia Thurlow: One of the key aspects of intermittent fasting is flexibility. I'd really encourage you to experiment, maybe you're going to have a wider feeding window on a weekend, maybe you'll have a shorter fasting window on a weekend. I think that the key is really kind of leaning into what makes the most sense for you. I know that pre-pandemic I definitely was much more flexible in the weekends, because we were oftentimes going out or had events, and I couldn't per se time when I was eating or when I wasn't eating, it was oftentimes dependent on other people's schedules. I would say experiment to see what feels good, maybe if you're doing longer runs, you're going to want to break your fast earlier. Maybe if you're going out to dinner, you are going to have a wider feeding window. And that's completely fine and I do encourage people to change up what they're doing. Our bodies get very accustomed to eating the same foods, having the same fasting windows. And so, I do like variety. How about you? Do you have any different ways of doing things on the weekend?

Melanie Avalon: Well, first of all, I love your answer. And that's the answer is basically going to suggest which is just-- I think it's actually-- Especially if you have a regimented window during the week, it's a great time to have some flexibility, and actually, you said change things up, keep your body guessing. Well, I do a completely different window. If I was doing her window, I probably would adjust it a little bit where I might just open it a little bit later and keep it open later. Assuming that you're having social engagements at night dinners, things like that. For me personally, I really honestly do the same window every single night. I don't need to adjust because it literally fits in almost every situation.

The only time it wouldn't fit would be if I had to go to an early dinner. And then honestly, I probably just wouldn't eat. If there's one thing I won't do, I don't eat if I'm not hungry, I don't eat just to be social, I don't enjoy it. So, if that's the case, I usually would just drink and then eat later which interestingly, another tangent, this might be controversial, but they'll often say to have alcohol with food to slow the absorption and have a better effect on your body. I find the only time I'm really drinking with food is when I am having dinner out because normally, I drink before eating. And I find that I do a lot better that way drinking before because I feel like my body processes the alcohol completely and then it's not impeding or competing with the dinner. And I find when I have wine with food, I feel like the alcohol lasts longer in my system. So, just a random thought.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I'm definitely one of those people that I had to drink with food because if I didn't, I would feel the effects pretty strongly. [laughs] I would be the person who would be like, "Uh-oh," I don't feel so great.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, maybe that's why I like it more not because I like feeling crazy, I can drink less and have the drinking experience compared to if I'm having it with food, I would maybe drink more.

Cynthia Thurlow: You know, what's interesting is that I always assumed that because I was the type of person, I could never really drink a lot. What's unique about my body, I don't make enough alcohol dehydrogenase to break this down properly or are my detoxification pathways just not optimized? I mean those are the things I used to spend time thinking about. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I've done my genetic data and one of the systems that I ran it through, I know I've said this on the podcast before, but I don't know if I've said it when I was with you. It basically looked at your, "Oh, I think it was the SelfDecode report. It was the food one," and it showed you like all these different food options, like carbs, I don't know, there was like four food-related things, and there was alcohol, I was bad with everything food related and great with alcohol. Alcohol was like green and then everything else food related was like red, red, red. [laughs]

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's interesting because I did do genetic testing over the summer with Kristina Hess and that's an area of nutrigenomics, that's her area of expertise. Things that were consistent, and validating were things like, "Do you like lean meat or fatty meat?" I was like, "Oh, lean meat all the way. I don't feel good when I eat fatty meat." And we were going through the report and she was like, "I can see where that is, I can see where you're very athletic, I can see that you're someone that actually would tolerate a little bit of dairy, you can actually tolerate a little bit of alcohol." And I was like, "That's interesting," because it hasn't been my own experience. But we can't consider the fact that or we need to consider why bio-individuality is such an important aspect of whether we're leading into this next question talking about inflammatory foods. For each one of us that could look very different and I know I don't think I ever perceived the foods I no longer consume now were bothersome even 15 or 20 years ago. And so, just understanding that there's the genetics piece plus exposure piece, and they can all play a role in how we feel when we eat certain foods.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's so key and speaking to that it's so interesting when you do pay more attention and "Clean up what you're eating," how you do notice, "Well, I don't really eat foods that bother me now." But if I were too, I really notice and I just look back at my old self and I think about everything that I was eating and how I didn't even notice because I think it was an overall systemic inflammation. So, you didn't really pick up on any one signal from food. But yeah, so Casey's last question which you hinted at. She says, "What are some of your top anti-inflammatory foods? What are the foods you'd recommend avoiding that are most inflammatory?"

Cynthia Thurlow: When I think about top anti-inflammatory foods, I really think about phytonutrient dense foods. When you hear the term eat the rainbow, I think about green leafy vegetables, I think about berries, especially blueberries, raspberries, blackberries. I think a great deal about medicinal mushrooms, and no I'm not talking about mushrooms that are psychedelic. I think about curcumin which is a component of turmeric. I think a great deal about polyphenols that you get in green tea and bitter teas and black coffee, preferably mold-free. The most inflammatory foods in my estimation are seed oils and highly processed hyperpalatable foods, gluten, dairy, in particular people that are susceptible to that, sometimes grains, processed sugars, alcohol, soy, so it really depends, just like Melanie was saying she feels differently when she has alcohol on an empty stomach versus in a fed state. Bio-individuality but seed oils are the most inflammatory foods worth eliminating if you do nothing else. Read labels, ask when you go to restaurants, I think seed oils down to a cellular level the most damaging food like substances that most of us consume unknowingly in many ways. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, we have very similar lists. So actually, my big one for anti-inflammatory isn't so much a specific food as it is an approach to the amino acid profiles of foods. In particular, because there are nine essential amino acids and some of those are more growth-promoting and can be inflammatory in high amounts, particularly things like methionine, which is really high in muscle meats, compared to "more anti-inflammatory amino acids," things like glycine. So, fish, for example, tends to be a more and I'm using quotes because inflammation itself is so complicated and nuanced and in a way, it's hard to really deconstruct what is inflammatory and what's anti-inflammatory, but in general, the amino acid profile of fish tends to be a "more anti-inflammatory amino acid profile" than something like muscle meat and then the amino acid profile of more gelatinous cuts of red meat tend to be more anti-inflammatory. That is actually a large reason that I make shellfish and fish basically the foundation of my protein, it's the reason I eat so many scallops because I read this one study that looked at the inflammatory potential, I think it looked at like liver enzymes or the effect on the liver in particular and it looked at chicken, cod which is fish, scallops and then one more, I'll have to find the study and put this in the show notes. But the effect of scallops, like the anti-inflammatory potential was insane. After I read that I'm eating scallops all the time.

Cynthia Thurlow: You want to know, it's one of the few foods my husband hates. So like, "I can only really eat scallops when I'm in restaurants because he dislikes them that much, but I actually really enjoy them."

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I love those scallops as you guys know. Yeah, having scallops, for example, would be a pretty anti-inflammatory protein. And then it's not just the amino acids as a benefit of fish, also the omega-3, omega-6 ratio. And this is another thing where it's not so much take omega-3 because it's anti-inflammatory, I think what's more important is the ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 because we need both. And we just want the ratio to be more in favor of the omega-3 side. I've seen different amounts when they say hunter-gatherers ate omega-3 to omega-6 ratio of between 1:1 to I think between 4:1, which, sorry omega-3 to omega-6, yes, 4:1, or wait it'd be another way around? Probably the other way around. In any case, today, the ratio tends to be I think it can be like 20 or 30:1, it's crazy.

And again, a lot of people will go the route of like, "Oh, well, high dose the fish oil, eat all the salmon." I think it's more about the ratio, I don't think we necessarily need a huge amount of these omega-3s and omega-6s in our diets, but we want that ratio to be more ant-inflammatory than inflammatory. Although if you want a really nuanced conversation on this, which is going to add a lot of caveats, listen to my interview with Chris Masterjohn, because we dive deep into this and he actually has a much more complicated view, which contradicts a little bit about what I said, but it still stands that the omega-3 to omega-6 ratio I think is important.

And then on top of that some things that Cynthia mentioned, a lot of spices can be really anti-inflammatory. She mentioned curcumin that's found in turmeric, I eat so much turmeric every single night. I eat a lot of ginger.

Cynthia Thurlow: I love ginger.

Melanie Avalon: I love ginger, I love turmeric and ginger. They are the two "spices" because I know ginger is a root. I just gravitate towards them like none other and then they always come up in the list of the go-to anti-inflammatory spices. I like to high dose those, ate a lot of that. Everybody knows I went through my pineapple phase. Pineapple can be really anti-inflammatory because of the bromelain, which is a proteolytic enzyme that breaks down proteins, kind of like serrapeptase except serrapeptase, you're taking in a fasted state and pineapple is a food and can help with digesting your food. The main reason I want to get back to pineapple and the reason I haven't is for some reason intuitively, it just feels too sweet to me now, but when I was eating that the reductions in inflammations I just saw personally in myself were amazing. And then for the inflammatory side of things, trans fats, yes, they've been banned, but they are still there, seed oils, that's what I had written down for sure like Cynthia was saying I do think that is huge, especially the processed ones, the refined seed oils, and they're just rampant. I think Cate Shanahan, her book, The Fatburn Fix talks a lot about this, and there's like the three S's, canola, corn, cottonseed, safflower, soy, sesame?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sunflower.

Melanie Avalon: Sunflower. Yeah, so definitely looking for those. Gluten, I think can be very inflammatory for a lot of people. Those were the three main ones I wrote down and then just in general, I think the most inflammatory thing, well "processed foods," just processed foods, and then just eating too much like the energy toxicity of overindulging can have a very inflammatory effect compared to a calorie-restricted diet or fasting, which ultimately tends to create calorie restriction or allows for that fasting time can be anti-inflammatory. But the eating process is inflammatory just by its nature.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's all good.

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Shall we go on to Bruce's question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, this is the subject, "Thanks for all you do. I recently listened to all of the episodes on your podcast, and I would like to thank both of you for your dedicated work. I'm wondering if you've seen anything on sauna sessions and fasting. I have a sauna that I built a few years ago and use it four times a week. I have recently started using the red lights that are part of the lighting system that came with the heater control package because Melanie saying red lights were beneficial. Love Bruce." I cannot think of a more Melaniesque appropriate question."

Melanie Avalon: Bruce, thank you so much for your question. I do love the red lights, so I'm glad you're on that board as well as the sauna. I googled sauna and fasting and I didn't really find any studies per se. But I can speak to my personal experience and I found a very wonderful blog post written by Siim Land who I've had on my show twice.

Cynthia Thurlow: Me too, he's awesome.

Melanie Avalon: He's wonderful. Although I was thinking, I feel like he hasn't been posting. I feel like I haven't seen much from him recently.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, he's been quieter. I don't know, he might be writing a book. He's like a proliferative writer.

Melanie Avalon: He's just so smart.

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm and he doesn't have-- one of those things for me, I really am oftentimes fascinated/humbled when people that don't have traditional research or medical training are just able to grasp such complicated concepts, much like you Melanie, you can grasp such complicated subjects and really understand it at a level that even for myself, sometimes I'm like, "Wow, I had never thought about that." So, he's one of those young protegees of the science community.

Melanie Avalon: Well, first of all, thank you for saying that. And yeah, he's younger than me.

Cynthia Thurlow: I guess he's like, 25. [laughs] He's a young buck.

Melanie Avalon: I'm thinking maybe because he is so young maybe he had some life development career-wise.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I think he's just smart and curious snd I think that has served him well.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I know he's amazing. I found a blog post by him called Why Combine Sauna and Fasting. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But I will give you the takeaways from that blog post. This is all the work of Siim Land, not myself. But he makes the case that both sauna and fasting have a lot of similar benefits as far as anti-aging, longevity, and supporting the immune system. And sauna has some benefits that fasting does not automatically provide. For example, the cardiovascular workout equivalent of a sauna session, you're not going to get that from fasting. And then on the flipside, I guess you could say there are things that fasting would provide that sauna wouldn't necessarily. 

But he says that they work really well symbiotically for something that, I would have never come up with this and I don't think I would have ever come up with this. But he talks about the importance of autophagy in both fasting and sauna, so both sauna sessions and fasting instigate autophagy, which is basically a cellular cleanup process in the body. It's really linked to longevity, anti-aging, disease prevention, so many things. What's interesting is one of the main benefits of sauna comes from heat shock proteins that are activated when you do a sauna session. And there are some studies on heat shock proteins in rodents and they found that the autophagy process is actually required to experience the benefit from the heat shock proteins. And the autophagy in part possibly mitigates some of the actual stress or the detrimental effects of heat shock proteins. It's possible that by really ramping up your autophagy, which would happen with a fasted state that you will get more benefits from the sauna, and you'll get a more-- to use that word anti-inflammatory response, you're going to get the benefits either way, and it's not something to be worried about. But basically, the fasting during the sauna session, he said, it's basically like better quality control when your body is doing that cleanup process and inactivation with the heat shock proteins, keeping the healthy cells and getting rid of the negative cells.

And then something else, I actually did think about this, he mentioned this, but I think I would have thought about this too. He talks about how both fasting and sauna increase human growth hormone. And he thinks doing sauna while fasting can further increase that human growth hormone and mitigate any potential catabolic effects of fasting. The reason I think I would have thought about that was because I interviewed Wendy Myers recently, she pointed out something in her book that blew my mind. I read it. I don't know if I mentioned this on the show already. I read it, I was like, "Oh, that can't be." I was like because somebody would have told me that, I actually didn't believe it. And then I went to find a study and it's true. Did you know, in order to release human growth hormone from exercise, it's from the heat created from the exercise, like it requires heat.

Cynthia Thurlow: Interesting. I guess that's why it's important to sweat and raise that core temperature.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that blew my mind. I was like, "No, surely exercise releases human growth hormone by some other mechanism." But no, it actually requires heat, if you're like working out, and you never raise your core body temperature, you actually might not be getting some of the benefits.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's interesting because I do Pilates every week and this morning it was a different type format of Pilates, and it's not my favorite. And I was laughing with the instructor who I love. I just take her classes because she really challenges me. And I was laughing and saying, "Okay, it takes me about five minutes of doing Pilates, we're lifting or whatever I'm doing to warm up enough that I take off whatever shirt I have on." And I was saying to her what we were doing this morning was so much more intense that within like two minutes I was sweating. And so, I think it makes sense and you have to exert yourself hard enough because we're really looking for some degree of hormesis. We want a beneficial stressor to the body, so that would make sense although I don't think I've per se thought about it that way before.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it really blew my mind. But yeah, that word hormesis. I think basically the case that Siim Land makes with a sauna is that you will get a more beneficial hormetic response from sauna use if you're fasting during it. And then I just know for me personally that you could not pay me to go in a sauna with food in me, that experience feels very unpleasant. Because there's something about like the detox and the sweating and letting it all out like to be digesting food and to have all of that and yet at the same time would just feel like "Oof," it would feel " Oof." It'd just not feel good. I do have a sauna recommendation if people would like a recommendation. I personally use the Sunlighten Solo unit every single night of my life. I cannot even express my obsession with this creation. I would love to have a cabin unit which Sunlighten also makes cabin units. But I live in an apartment that's not going to happen and their solo unit is this really cool contraption that you actually lay down inside of. It's kind of like, I don't want to say a coffin, it's a dome.

Cynthia Thurlow: It does not look like a coffin. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It does not, it looks like, I don't even know how to describe it. And it lights up, it has chromotherapy lights. And what's really wonderful about it, especially for me is your head is outside of it. I attach-- I've come up with this whole-- You can get one of those bendy arms that holds your phone and I attach that too because I put the solo unit on top of a twin frame, metal frame from Amazon that I got, so I can put a link to that in the show notes. I attach an arm and then it holds my phone over me so I can lay in there, my head is out of it, and I can read my books, and do my research, and do emails and it's just the most wonderful experience. They also have their products tested for EMF which is amazing. I recommend that solo unit. I also recommend obviously they're cabin units if you do have the space for that as well. If you tell them I sent you, they will give you a really good discount. That's at Sunlighten. But, Cynthia, do you have a sauna?

Cynthia Thurlow: We do not yet and that has something to do with the fact that we are putting a pool in next year and we're going to create an exterior structure. And I am envisioning that the exterior structure will have our infrared sauna in it, as opposed to it would have to reside in our garage. Even though the Sunlighten people have assured me it's completely fine. The area of the country I live in is very humid in the summer. And the thought of [laughs] being in a steaming garage with an infrared sauna is not really of interest to me. Right now, I have a sauna blanket. And yes, I'm working with the fact this is a temporary solution by HigherDOSE and so it's a sauna blanket that you get inside of and you sweat like crazy. And then I get on my PEMF mat, and I'm just so happy, I cannot tell you how much I enjoy the PEMF mat, I fall asleep on it, it's so relaxing, there are different settings, I have no affiliation with HigherDOSE, I just recommend that mat to everyone. But if you are space-constrained, Sunlighten makes apartment and small space-appropriate options as well as HigherDOSE, coming from a very large house that we had in Northern Virginia with a very large basement to a slightly smaller house with no basement has meant that we've had to get very creative. So, when that exterior structure is created, I'm excited because it's going to have like a little gym area inside that I can work out in.

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting. Yeah, I can't wait for you to get the experience that you were sharing about just how good PEMF makes you feel. That's the way I feel after my sauna session each night.

Cynthia Thurlow: And I think it's important to find things that make you feel good. For me, I fell asleep on it every night this week, and I was like, Okay, "I cannot fall asleep on it because and I can't fall asleep in my normal time." So, now I have to do shorter episodes because you can change the settings and certain settings are impacting you more for relaxation and pre-sleep mode versus stimulating. And there's nothing better than lying on this warm mat. It's just glorious. Makes me feel so good.

Melanie Avalon: It's amazing. All right, shall we answer one more question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: We have one last question; this is from Justine. And Justine says, "Hi guys, love the podcast, I've been listening at work, and I feel like I've learned a lot already. I'm relatively new to intermittent fasting, but I've had a good experience and results so far. You've talked previously about the science you feel when you are in ketosis, metallic taste in the mouth increased or different energy. Could you go over the signs to look for as a new intermittent faster, I am anxiously awaiting a sign that I am in ketosis but I'm not sure what to look for. Thanks, from Ottawa, Canada."

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Justine, welcome to the intermittent fasting world. Typically, when patients or clients are asking these kinds of questions, we're really looking for signs of metabolic flexibility if we're able to effectively utilize stored fats or glucose or create ketones. And so, I think about being able to go longer in between meals. If you can go four to five hours in between meals and have good amounts of energy, you're not having energy slumps after eating, you are able to regulate your weight, part of metabolic flexibility is having the ability to lose weight more effectively. But I think about the brain cognition piece being a big one, if you're able to effectively create ketones and specific ones can diffuse across the blood-brain barrier. So, mental clarity, energy sustained from meal to meal, not getting hangry, effectively being able to lose weight. Those are probably the big ones that I think about what about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so those are really good for the signs, I guess the only thing I would add is as far as if you actually wanted to confirm or measure and we've talked about this at length multiple times on the show, but just to briefly go through it, you can measure ketones, there are caveats and nuances to all of it. If you're brand new to intermittent fasting, urine keto strips can be great because you will likely see that shift when you actually start generating ketones and a large portion of those ketones. Your body doesn't know how to use them in the beginning, so it like gets rid of a lot of them through your urine. The issue with urine sticks ongoing is that as your body becomes more used to using ketones, you don't excrete as many through the urine. It's not a really good long-term way to monitor ketosis or you can also monitor blood and breath. Monitoring your blood, there also can be a little bit of that effect where you might see more in the beginning and then as you become better at using it, you might see lower levels on your blood ketone meter. That said, you should always see them, you're not going to be in ketosis and not see ketones on your blood ketone meter. So, that can be a good thing to monitor. I really like Keto-Mojo's brand of their ketone meter. And then you can also measure the breath. So, the breath is also a byproduct of when we burn ketones. Interestingly, Dominic D'Agostino has talked about this, he's made the case that breath ketones are likely more a product of when you're actually burning fat compared to like dietary fat, which I thought was pretty cool just because of the whole metabolic process and what would create those breath ketones, so you can get a Biosense meter for that if you want to measure breath ketones, and I do have a code. You can actually join my Facebook group has a long name, Lumen, Biosense & CGMs: Carbs, Fat, Ketones & Blood Sugar and then (Melanie Avalon) basically if you type in Melanie Avalon Facebook Group, I have three groups and this one will come up. You can get $20 off of Biosense. If you go to melanieavalon.com/biosense and use the coupon AVALON20. What are your thoughts? Cynthia on measuring all of these different ketone options?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I think they're nice. Certainly, Dr. Anna Cabeca talks a lot about urine ketones and when you're new to being in ketosis that can be valuable. But those kinds of things add up. That's why, I typically start with-- these are signs and then you can get further validation. I do like Keto-Mojo, I really, really enjoy the owners. I think that they're delightful and they're really trying to help change the narrative especially about insulin resistance and diabetes, and just making people more aware of the net impact of food choices and lifestyle on our blood sugar. I think those are certainly really great options. I'm not as familiar with Biosense, but obviously I know that you've done your due diligence, but I think the devices to me are secondary to actually getting to a point where you start recognizing the signs that demonstrate that you're becoming more metabolically flexible. And just remember, it's a very small percentage of the population here in the United States, right now, it's about 7% to 8% are metabolically flexible. So, really important for everyone to lean into that.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I agree, I think that's so important, it's a fine line. I just wish everybody could have the full knowledge of ketones before engaging with these devices so that they have the healthiest relationship with the device and what they're learning from it.

Cynthia Thurlow: I totally agree.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because you don't want it to be something that is a hurdle to something that you're doing that's good in your body because you feel like you're not creating enough ketones. I think it can just become an issue. I actually never measure my ketones ever. And we actually have a question that we didn't get to today, maybe we'll get to it next week, about our diets and if we're getting into ketosis or not, and I'll say this again when I answer that question, but I might not be, I don't know, I might not be getting into ketosis, you can burn fat without getting into ketosis. Surprise, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners, before we go, if you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike although I have it on my to-do list, I really need to get that page updated. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and I think that is all the things. Anything from you before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. I'm just looking forward to our next recording and I promise that our first question won't take quite so long.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, it was lots of questions.

Cynthia Thurlow: it was, very nuanced, but all good information that I think is applicable to most people that are listening.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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