Dec 20

Episode 192: Food Sensitivities, Using Food Sense Guide (How To), Plateaus, Maca Powder, Bingeing, Emotional Eating, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 192 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

AUDIBLE: This is Melanie's well-known secret for reading #allthebooks #allthetime! Audible provides the largest selection of audiobooks on the planet, in every genre! With Audible, you can listen on any device, anytime, anywhere! Every month, members get 1 credit to pick any title, unlimited Audible Originals, access to daily news digests (The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and The Washington Post), guided meditation programs, Audible Sleep, and more! Audible provides rollover credits, easy exchanges, discounts on titles beyond credits, and audiobooks you'll keep forever! For those with children, check out the free Stories.Audible.com! Go To audible.com/ifpodcast Or Text IFPODCAST To 500500 For A 30 Day Free Trial, Including A Free Audiobook!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical May Happen After Your First Order!

Check Out Shapa Scale And Use The Promo Code IFStories To Save $20

The Cancer Code: A Revolutionary New Understanding Of A Medical Mystery (Dr. Jason Fung)

Listener Feedback: Shelly - Feedback for Food Sense Guide

FOOD SENSE GUIDE: Get Melanie's App To Tackle Your Food Sensitivities! Food Sense Includes A Searchable Catalogue Of 300+ Foods, Revealing Their Gluten, FODMAP, Lectin, Histamine, Amine, Glutamate, Oxalate, Salicylate, Sulfite, And Thiol Status. Food Sense Also Includes Compound Overviews, Reactions To Look For, Lists Of Foods High And Low In Them, The Ability To Create Your Own Personal Lists, And More!

Melanie's Email List 

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #62 - Dr. Becky Campbell

Dry Farm Wines: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To DryFarmWines.com/IFPodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

 AUDIBLE: Go To Audible.com/IFPODCAST Or Text IFPODCAST To 500500 For A 30 Day Free Trial, Including A Free Audiobook!

Listener Q&A: Becky - Fasting Window Time

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #27 - Nick Ortner

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #45: Glenn Livingston, Ph.D.

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #68 - Glenn Livingston, Ph.D.

Never Binge Again: How Thousands of People Have Stopped Overeating and Binge Eating - and Stuck to the Diet of Their Choice! (By Reprogramming Themselves to Think Differently About Food.)  Glenn Livingston, Ph.D.

Listener Q&A: Amanda - Maca Root and Katie's Question episode 187

Listener Q&A: Katie - Sleep, Paleo and a Plateau, oh my

Kiss My Keto C8 MCT Oil

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 192 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of our sponsors, Prep Dish. Prep Dish is changing the way thousands of families do mealtime. Here's how it works. Prep Dish thoughtfully crafts a week's worth of gluten-free and paleo meals that feature seasonal ingredients to make the most of your budget, save you time and surprise your taste buds. You may be thinking, but we aren't gluten-free or paleo. Well, when I have used Prep Dish, my family didn't even notice that the meals were gluten-free because they are based on real food ingredients and the meals were delicious. There's also a keto plan if that's what you're looking for.

When you join Prep Dish, along with the weekly menu, you'll get a printable grocery list and instructions for prep day. Just two hours of preparation yields scrumptious, good for you dishes all week long. You shop once, prep once.

When you join, not only do you have access to this week's menu, but you can choose from past week menus. The dilemma of what's for dinner is solved forever. Go to prepdish.com/ifpodcast for your free trial. Yep, it's totally free. And once you see how easy it makes your life, you won't know what you did without it. That's prepdish.com/ifpodcast, and now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: And one more thing before we jump in. Are you looking for the perfect gifts this holiday season for yourself and others? Well, the average male uses six skincare products per day, the average female uses 12. And as it turns out, conventional skincare and makeup is full of toxins. We're talking things like endocrine disrupters, obesogens. Meaning, they literally cause your body to store and gain weight, and even carcinogens linked to cancer. So while you may be fasting clean, you may be putting compounds directly into your body during the fast, they can be affecting both your health and weight loss. Thankfully, there's an easy solution.

There's a company called Beautycounter and they make an array of skincare makeup products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about all of the ingredients that you put on. Their products are even tested multiple times for heavy metals. And for the holiday season, Beauty Counter has so many amazing gift sets. These are bundled products at a discount, and they make incredible gifts. Think about it. You can get the products for yourself or for your friends and family and help clean up their skincare, all in disguise of gift-giving. Works pretty well. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you're trying to figure out exactly which products to get, check out my beauty counter quiz, that's at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. And for the latest discounts and giveaways from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 192 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am doing great, sitting here with my mug of hot water.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.

Gin Stephens: Drinking it. My EM-TEA.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, right. EM--

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: The best kind of tea.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, what's the EM?

Gin Stephens: Well, you know the word empty. There's nothing there. It's empty. It's just hot water. Somebody in one of my Facebook groups invented that word for hot water in a mug. I can't remember the name of the person who did it, but I love it.

Melanie Avalon: What is the M stand for? Oh, I thought it was like Em-T.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's like tea. Okay, it's like tea, but it's not tea. It's just hot water. It's EM-TEA.

Melanie Avalon: It'd be perfect if like WT met empty, because then it would be water tea. Are you following? If I'm saying if the EM stood for something related to water.

Gin Stephens: Well, we spell it E-M, capital T-E-A. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: What's her name? Emily, who founded?

Gin Stephens: No, but it's like empty, it's a play on words. Okay.

Melanie Avalon: I know it's a play on words. I'm trying to make both sides of it work.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's just a play on words. It's EM-TEA, empty.

Melanie Avalon: I can talk about words for hours.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, I'm enjoying my EM-TEA. It's delicious.

Melanie Avalon: How was your Thanksgiving?

Gin Stephens: It was nice. We had a small family gathering. We all stayed safe. Yep. It was delicious. Here's what's so surprising. I'm using my Shapa scale and I fully expected-- I've noticed that the Shapa age goes up as your weight fluctuates upward, in whatever, but I was expecting the day after Thanksgiving that my age would have fluctuated upward and it didn't. Then, yesterday, the day after the day after thank-- Wait, no, yesterday was the day after Thanksgiving. I still ate two meals of Thanksgiving foods. We had all these leftovers. So, this morning, I was like, “Surely, my weight will fluctuate up.” No, I'm still 23 on my Shapa app, isn’t that crazy? Are you getting a Shapa age, have you seen it?

Melanie Avalon: I am. I'm not very happy with it. It says that I am my age. How does it determine the age?

Gin Stephens: I don't know. Some kind of formula of some sort. It might have something to do with my-- I'm just guessing. Remember how we filled out a survey? Or we answered a survey when we got the app? Like when did you feel your best? Or what weight were you when you felt good, stuff sSomething like that? I have a feeling it has something to do with that. Or, what age did you feel your best? I'm not really sure. I know we answered a bunch of questions at the beginning. I bet it used some of that information.

Melanie Avalon: I Facebooked you, I was so excited. I finally got my color. I'm suspicious because I as well-- So, teal is losing weight, right?

Gin Stephens: A little bit. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I was convinced that after Thanksgiving, I still did one meal a day, but I ate a lot of the Thanksgiving food. I was like, “It's going to tell me I'm gaining weight,” or something. But it still says I'm losing weight. I'm like, “Is this right?”

Gin Stephens: Well, remember, it lags behind your overall trend. Even if your weight fluctuated up three pounds the day after Thanksgiving, it's still going to show teal, if your overall average for the past 10 days, it only goes by that. It looks at the last 10 days, and what that average is compared to the previous average of the 10 days before that, something like that. It's like turning a battleship. Your Shapa color is not going to change a lot quickly. I'm not surprised my color has been blue because I had that gray after going to the beach a couple times, my overall trend started to go up. Then I just kept doing what I normally do. It's blue now because of the gray before. That's me fluctuating within-- so I'm not like losing beyond my-- if that makes sense. My blue now is because it was gray before, but the thing that surprised me is that my Shapa age didn't fluctuate upward.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it says my Shapa age is exactly my age. Oh, and for listeners, I know they probably aren't familiar-- Basically, this is a scale that instead of showing your weight, shows you a color.

Gin Stephens: I actually put a page on my website, finally. I figured out how to make pages with things on the lucky--  like you always have been doing. I finally made ginstephens.com/shapa.

Melanie Avalon: A redirect. Good job.

Gin Stephens: It's not a redirect. Weebly doesn't redirect. They don't let you redirect, but I figured out how to make a page, and then I can put information on it. It's not a redirect. If go to ginstephens.com/shapa, it has everything about Shapa, plus a link to Shapa. See, before I couldn't figure out how to do it without making a million pages, but they're all there, but they're not showing up in the navigation. I finally figured that out.

Melanie Avalon: Good job.

Gin Stephens: I know. I'm not like a web designer, but every time I figure out something new, I'm like, “Woo, I feel so good.”

Melanie Avalon: I know, it's really exciting, especially when something pretty useful.

Gin Stephens: Because I do my website myself.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. It'd be nice to outsource but it's also really nice to have complete creative control and like, I don't know, being able to do everything.

Gin Stephens: Well, when I did Intermittent Fasting Stores, the website for that I outsourced that. I had it professionally done, and they used a different platform. I use Weebly, but they put it on a different platform, and I can't figure out how to do anything there. It's completely not set up the way I would do it and so I've never loved it. I can't figure out how to change it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I will say though, I really want to interview the founder of Shapa, so I'm going to--

Gin Stephens: Awesome. He's brilliant.

Melanie Avalon: Whenever I talk to him. I didn't realize, he's a New York Times bestseller.

Gin Stephens: I did know that. Yeah. He has like TED Talks that have been huge. He's a top mind. He's a professor at Duke University, I believe.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, perfect. I love when they're universities because they can very easily find their contact information.

Gin Stephens: Oh, good.

Melanie Avalon: Because I always have a professor email. That's how I contacted David Sinclair, Benjamin Bikman. I feel when they're professors, they actually read their professor email. So, it's very-- Oh, that's exciting.

Gin Stephens: Being married to a professor, I could vouch for that.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Valter Longo, yep. This is great.

Gin Stephens: That's one I will definitely want to listen to, because I just love him because I love Shapa. Shapa is a great product, and he's a brilliant man. So, definitely get him on there, but I have one other follow-up. I talked last time that I'm going to be eating according to my PREDICT 3 study results, and I was going to do it after Thanksgiving.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-Hmm.

Gin Stephens: Well, they want you to commit to doing it for 28 days. So, I was starting to plan it., and I'm like, “Okay, I'm going to be ready to start.” And I'm like, “Wait a minute.” I'm going to the beach for few days with a friend. And then I also have Cal and his wife are coming to stay. What am I going to eat? And then we have Christmas. So I was like, “Nope, I'm waiting. I'm going to wait till right after Christmas.”

Melanie Avalon: Do they care when you do it?

Gin Stephens: No. They don't care what I do it. I'm going to start it after Christmas because I was just like, “I just can't.” I have a hard time with any not just eating whatever I want. I really feel I have to try it. I have to try it. I can't go through all this and then not try to do what they say to do.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'll be really interested to see how it goes.

Gin Stephens: I wonder what my Shapa will do. I will have some data there. Maybe I'll be like 12 years old. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Guess who I interviewed yesterday?

Gin Stephens: Was it Jason Fung?

Melanie Avalon: Nope.

Gin Stephens: Oh. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Although I am almost done with his book, Cancer Code.

Gin Stephens: But that one's coming up. Jason Fung is coming up.

Melanie Avalon: It is.

Gin Stephens: Well, then you're just going to have to tell me.

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Alan Goldhamer from True North Health Center, the extended fasting.

Gin Stephens: Oh, okay. Yeah. You told me you were going to talk to him.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. For listeners, he was in the Netflix documentary on well, and he spent a lot of podcast and he runs the-- Is it the only extended water fasting stay in center in the US? At one point, it was the only one.

Gin Stephens: It's the only one that I ever hear people talk about. I would be surprised if it is the only one because there's lots of things all over the place. It's just the only one that people always talk about.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's pretty well known for that, and very interesting conversation. We get so many questions on this show about extended fasting, but we don't really talk about it that much. We stick to intermittent fasting. So, it was really nice to really pick his brain on that topic. I think the most surprising thing for me, was that he basically recommends-- so he's a huge fan of daily intermittent fasting, but not longer than 16 hours.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He thinks like a daily up to 16-hour fast, and then if you're doing longer fasts, then it's an extended fast, like, you're doing the five days or more.

Gin Stephens: He thinks either 16 or 5 days, that's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 5:40.

Gin Stephens: Either fast for 16 or 5 days.

Melanie Avalon: 16 hours, or 5 to 40 days. I think the reasoning was the protective mechanisms, and everything that happens with extended fasting is really kicking in later. He did talk about a little bit about fasting-mimicking diet. I don't know, it was really interesting, but he did say he really wanted to focus more on extended fasting. We didn't go too deep into intermittent fasting, but it was really motivational. Man, I want to do an extended water fast now.

Gin Stephens: I do not. I do not want to do. I can just say it. I mean, there might be some health situations that would cause me to rethink that. So, I'm not going to say I would never do one, but in the state of health that I am right now, I have no desires to.

Melanie Avalon: If when I move back to California, though, I definitely want to check it out because it's in California, so that could be fun.

Gin Stephens: I know you've talked before on the podcast about struggling with gaining weight, so I wonder-- technically, you're more to the lower end of the healthy weight for your body. Is that right? I wonder what would he say about doing an extended fast at that situation? If you're at the lower end of your weight range?

Melanie Avalon: I actually don't know if I'm underweight still, I might be. I should have asked him that. He did say the most benefits come with people who are healthy and normal weight and they want to just go to revitalize their body.

Gin Stephens: I love that he said that.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, obviously, a lot of people coming in are coming in to address obesity, like health issues, diabetes, gut health, many things. He did say a lot of people come are just normal people. I should have asked him about being underweight.

Gin Stephens: I do believe that's a contraindication for longer fasts.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm sure it is. For listeners, well, it's coming out probably way after this airs, but follow the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast because it's really a good episode to check out. When it airs, I'll mention it again on the show. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: One more announcement before we do our questions. We are nearing Episode 200, and if listeners would like to submit questions, we are going to have an Ask Me Anything episode. So, you can ask us anything. By anything we mean, it doesn't have to be fasting related. It can be just whatever you like.

Gin Stephens: Awesome. I'm a little scared now. No. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm not saying we will answer but--

Gin Stephens: You could ask. Exactly. All right, so we've got something from Shelley. The subject is Feedback for Food Sense. She says, “Hello. I have listened to all the intermittent fasting podcasts, read yours and Gin's books, starting to get into the biohacking podcasts now. I saw your offer for this app this morning and downloaded it right away. I have so many questions.” By the way, she's talking about Melanie's Food Sense app that was developed by Cal Stephens, I'm so proud of him.

Melanie Avalon: For Thanksgiving, I actually-- to my email list friends, get on my email list, melanieavalon.com/emaillist. I offered to give it away as my Thanksgiving gift to everybody. I basically spent all Thanksgiving for the exception of when I wasn't at get-togethers gifting it to people because I did not anticipate how many people would take me up on that offer. But it hit number five in the iTunes Store for all food and drinks. I want it to be number one, but I'm watching it.

Gin Stephens: Very cool. All right. She said, “I saw your offer for the app this morning and downloaded it right away. I have so many questions. I have always known I had food sensitivities. I thought it was gluten/wheat, and dairy. I did give those foods up and felt great. Then, not so consistent. I feel all foods bother me. I'm always constipated and bloated. On one of your podcasts, I heard about the Everlywell blood test. Ordered it and took it. Came back as eggs, egg whites, almonds, and cashews is my sensitivities in the 70s. Gluten wasn't much of an issue on the scale. Besides eliminating those items and reducing gluten, I haven't done a good elimination diet, but looking at Melanie's Food Sense Guide app, I'm trying to figure out the best way to use this app and find the foods that truly bother me.

For instance, thiols are high and eggs. Is that what I'm sensitive to? I looked at the other foods that are high on that, and I eat a lot of those foods, like coffee. I never even heard of thiols. Should I stop my coveted black coffee? If I could find a good clean tea to have in my window, I guess I could change. I guess my question is, what's the best way to use this app and make lists? Am I on the right track, start to eliminate or keep a list of foods with thiols or glutamates and how I feel when eating them. I'm excited to maybe figure out how to feel better.

As a little more background, I started IF two years ago this week. I lost 28 pounds, gained six back. I want to say some of it is muscle, since January I've been doing a cardio-strength class two times a week with cardio the other two to three days. I just don't feel as good as I did when I first started IF, and not losing a pound anymore. Just seeing the scale up. I'm a healthy eater, but getting super frustrated. But this app could be a life-changer. Any feedback or advice you have, I would love to hear. Thanks for all the information and support you provide. Love listening to you and Gin every week. Like you guys said last week, we can hear each of you every day of the week, but Tuesday.”

Melanie Avalon: I love it.

Gin Stephens: I do too. Thank you, Shelley, so much for your question. That actually made me think of one more thing that Dr. Goldhamer said yesterday. He said hands down the people who go on the extended fast. They lose a lot of weight obviously while fasting, a lot of its fat and when they regain it, they pretty much preferentially regain muscle if they're following. He advocates a sugar oil salt-free plant-based diet, and he's very passionate about that. But he did say that the weight gain that they see afterwards is typically muscle, which is pretty exciting. Going back to Shelley's question, for listeners, I made the Food Sense Guide app, with Gin son Cal, who is ridiculously talented and basically created exactly the app I was envisioning. I'm really grateful for that.

What it is, it is a comprehensive catalog of over 300 foods for 11 potentially problematic compounds that people can struggle with foods or that they might be reacting to. It's amines, FODMAPs, glutamates, gluten, histamines, lectins, oxalate, salicylates, sulfites, thiols, and nightshades. I made it because a lot of people follow low or high versions of all these different diets, and it can be really frustrating and overwhelming to know what you're reacting to. Like, gluten tends to be a pretty easy one, but things like oxalates, lectins, FODMAPs, it's really hard to keep all that information in one place. I pretty certain there is not any resource out there besides my app that has every food for all the compounds all in one place.

It can be overwhelming, though, because it's not going to tell you this is your problem. You have to be the detective and experiment with foods and look for trends yourself. It is my concern, and I've talked about this on some interviews where I've talked about it before, but I do get worried that people will do exactly what Shelley's doing. They'll think they're reacting to eggs, so they'll look at eggs and say, “Oh, eggs is high in thiols, it must be thiols, and that's not my intention. It really does require looking at your overall diet, looking for trends. It's a tool in your toolbox. What I would suggest is doing experiments, so if you suspect maybe, maybe it is thiols-- Oh, and by the way, in that there is compound info. If you want to learn about the compounds, you could go to thiols and you can read all about them. If you suspect, “Oh, maybe it's thiols,” then, I would suggest trying a low thiol diet for a little bit. Like she said, you can make list, so you can put different foods and you could do experiments and make notes and see how you feel.

I do think out of all the compounds, just from my perspective, what I think people do see radical changes with, if this is the issue bothering them is a lot of people have histamine overload, and doing a low histamine diet can be radical for a lot of people. My interview with Dr. Becky Campbell on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast all about histamine, so I'll put a link in the show notes to that. Also the FODMAP, I personally follow the FODMAP diet just in general. So, that's really helpful for me.

It's not the best answer for you, Shelley, but I would just recommend working with your foods, seeing how you react to things. I do have a comment about the Everlywell. I recently interviewed Dr. Anthony Beck. I haven't aired that episode yet. I really respect him. He knows a lot about testing things. He actually advocates a very specific because I asked him for testing food sensitivities, like what test should you be using? He advocates a very specific food sensitivity tests, which I will have to find out, which one it was specifically, but apparently most food sensitivity test. Just test your immediate IGM reaction. Is your immune system reacting to that food?

There's another test you can do that actually test the secondary effect of that IGM reaction. So, it tells you, “Okay, I'm having an IGM reaction, but is that actually a problem?” Because apparently we can have IGM reactions, and it's not a problem. What matters is how it's affecting things downstream. I really want to get that test done for myself.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that is interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it has something to do with like the-- I don't know, lymph system, but I'm not sure about that. So, I’ll have to figure out what that test was and put a link to in the show notes because I really want to get that done. Yeah, as far as Shelley says she's excited to, how to feel better. I do believe very, very deeply that finding the foods that work for you is so, so huge for feeling well, also playing around weight loss. You could be eating calories that would typically lead to weight loss, but if those foods are inflammatory for you, it can be a huge hurdle. You can be storing water weight, when your body is an inflamed state, it is less likely to burn fat. Inflammatory cytokines create more fat storage throughout your body from the inflammation response. So, I do think that really looking at your foods and finding what's worked for you can be huge, and that's why I create this app. If anybody would like to get it, it is at melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide. It is only on iOS iPhones right now because Cal, he's an apple developer, but I do have plans to release on Android in the future. Yeah, Shelley, if you find something that works for you, definitely let us know. Do you have thoughts, Gin?

Gin Stephens: To echo what you just said about when things are inflammatory for you that you'll feel so much better when you eliminate them. You know what I have recently eliminated that I'm still sad about alcohol.

Melanie Avalon: Alcohol.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but, man, I feel so much better after realizing it wasn't working for my body. Like I said, “I'm not going to say I'll never drink alcohol again.” That's not realistic for me. Although, I mean, who knows? Maybe one day, it'll be 20 years from now, I'll be like, “Oh, I never did drink it again.” Who knows? But I'm not there yet. However, it's been, gosh, I guess-- I can't even think of the last time-- maybe it's been over a month since I've had alcohol. I lost like a puffiness that was around my eyes. Looking back at pictures from a year ago because really I switched to Dry Farm Wines, and I was drinking every day because it's clean wine. I was pretty much having wine every day. Anyway, it made a huge difference when I identified that was not working well for me. If it's thiols or salicylates or whatever it is, taking that out.

Melanie Avalon: I was just looking it up. Red wine because the app does have all alcohol pretty much. Red wine is high in amines, histamine, salicylates, and sulfites.

Gin Stephens: What about white wine? I do feel it's the alcohol versus the wine itself.

Melanie Avalon: Beer is high on almost everything. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: It didn't matter to me what I drank I still always felt bad The next day. Less bad with Dry Farm. I mean, that is 100% true. It has less alcohol than other wines, but less bad is still not fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: This is true.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of the sponsors for today's show. And that's Audible. Audible is the leading provider of spoken-word entertainment and audiobooks. Ranging from bestsellers to celebrity memoirs, news, business, and self-development. Every month, members get one credit to pick any title two audible originals from a monthly selection, access to Daily News digests and guided meditation programs. Beyond Audible’s normal entertainment and audiobook options, I want to tell you about something special they're offering right now. And that's stories.audible.com.

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Melanie Avalon: All right, so now we have a question from Becky. The subject is Fasting Window Time. Becky says, “Hello Gin and Melanie. I've been listening to your podcast for about a year now and I've been fasting for about a year and a half. I only started clean fasting in May after listening to you both talk about the importance. I've combined it with very strict clean keto. I track everything and follow my macros to a tee. I've been following this way of life for almost 200 days straight with no cheats. Yay. I have lost over 60 pounds and I absolutely feel fabulous. A little backstory.

I'm a highly emotional binge eater. I will literally eat everything around, regardless of how full and sick to my stomach I feel. I'm a sugar addict. And I find that keto is the best for me because I have absolutely no control when I eat sugar. Fasting is another tool that really helps me because once I start to eat, I tend to want to snack and eat all day. I'm working hard to break these habits, and I've seen a lot of success. I can easily fast 18 to 22 hours every day. I like eating one big meal, and I like eating all of my macros at once. Here is my problem. When I close my window at about 5:30 PM, I struggled to fast when lunchtime hits. I'm a mom of four and I have to make lunches for them. They become very irritable and all I can think about is eating. If I eat a big lunch and skipped dinner instead, I can easily fast the 18 to 22 hours, no problem. I get that maybe my body does better with an earlier eating window, but I would really prefer to eat dinner with my kids and my husband. Is there any tips you can give me to get through the lunchtime torture? I already tried tapping through my urges.” For, listeners, that's tapping, like, what does it stand for? Emotional Freedom Technique? Go to melanieavalon.com/tapping, if you want to learn more about it.

She says, “I remind myself that these thoughts will pass, then my hunger is not an emergency, but I usually end up giving in because my body trying to tell me it runs better on an earlier eating window. I'm hoping you ladies have some great ideas for making my fasting window work better for me and my family. Thank you both so much for taking the time, to not only answer my question, but also for all the work you do for the podcast. I really can't tell you how much you both have influenced my life. Thanks again, Becky.”

Gin Stephens: Well, thank you so much, Becky. This is a tricky one because go back to what you said that you become irritable at lunchtime and all you can think about is eating. It's just one of those things you have to like, weigh out. You make a list, pros and cons, because we can't tell you which of these to do. I can't say I think you should just eat lunch or I think you should just push through and eat dinner. I can't tell you either of those answers. I know that it would be nice if I could, maybe Melanie is going to have a great answer about which to do. I thought and thought about this. For me, when I find myself early in the day, when I was struggling to make intermittent fasting a lifestyle, I would too become irritable because I was trapped in the can't mindset. I can't eat right now. I shifted my mindset thinking instead was like, “No, I'm choosing not to eat right now.” It's not that I can't eat, I could, but I'm going to wait until later because, for me, I feel better when I eat later. I got tired when I ate earlier.

For you, it sounds almost you feel better when you eat earlier. It's hard to tell completely, but if your body is doing better with that earlier eating window, if you're irritable, because it's the thought that you can't eat, and if you're-- you can't shift that mindset to, “Okay, I'm just going too fast, and I'm going to eat with my family,” then maybe you should eat earlier. I want you to make some lists, like pros and cons, like why would I want to eat in the middle of the day? Why would I choose to eat lunch as my big meal? What are the cons to that? Vice versa. Why would I want to eat dinner? And what are the cons with that? I find that when I start writing things down, the answer becomes obvious to me, for myself. I'm struggling with what to do, what to do, but writing it all out, makes it clear. That's what I would suggest that you do.

I don't want you to feel you're giving in or that you're fighting against urges. You’ve got to somehow shift the thinking away from, “I'm fighting this as a battle.” Shift that mindset, like, “You know what, I've realized that it is very important to me to eat with my family and it is not torture that I'm not eating lunch. I feel great when I don't eat lunch, I'm going to be fine.” Is it an emotional feeling that you need to eat? You're really hungry and that's when your body needs to eat? So, make your decisions based on what you write down? The answers to those questions. What you really feel like your body is telling you, and not just your emotions. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I really like that idea about the list a lot. I really like what you said about, because it is hard to tell from what she said if wanting to eat is emotional or physical. Is it irritable, just because you want to be eating it or-- I mean, she says all she can think about is eating, which makes it sound like it is more physical, like she actually feels-- Well. It's confusing because it sounds like that, but then she also says that it's pretty effortless or easy to fast long and she feels fabulous. If it is a mental thing and not so much an actual hunger thing, I would actually really recommend checking out Dr. Glenn Livingston's work, that might be something that works for you. He has the Never Binge Again approach. It's not just for benching, it's for anything where you're trying to deal with that voice in your head that is upset about what it wants to be doing. He calls it the pig that wants to be eating.

Gin Stephens: I call it my inner toddler who wants it now. My inner toddler wants it now. It's like, “But I want it now. I want to eat this leftover Thanksgiving meal now. Yeah, I don't want to wait.”

Melanie Avalon: I like that toddler. If it is that where it's literally just the toddler or the pig, and it's not anything about actual needing the food, then that could be an approach that might really work for you. I've done two episodes with him. The first episode I think, is melanieavalon.com/neverbingeagain. And then I did a Q&A episode with him. I actually released that last week, that was really popular too. So that's melanieavalon.com/bingetriggers. That's that approach you could try, but it does sound like what Gin said and what she's saying that the earlier window does work better for her. So, if it turns out that physically health-wise peace with food, that everything is better with the earlier window-- I'm wondering, so can she like-- if she does lunch and closes it, is it unpleasant to sit at dinner without eating?

Gin Stephens: Well, she said if she skips dinner, she can easily fast, no problem. So, really, it might be a matter of feeling like she should eat dinner with her kids and her husband. That whole like, “Well, I really should be eating with them because that's “the right thing to do,” I need to eat with my family. Instead, you could just be with your family, being with people. I've gone to family events where-- I could think of a big family party that I went to a few years ago when my niece-- I think she turned 21, and it was lunchtime. I went and it was like, I don't know, an outdoor event place. I looked at the food and it was not something I really wanted to eat. I would have opened my window if it had been something-- I think it was barbecue, and I'm real picky about barbecue, and it looked fine, but I didn't want to eat the barbecue. I was like, “I'm just going to visit with everybody instead.” It wasn't weird, and it was okay. I didn't force myself to eat food at a time I didn't want to eat it. Food, I didn't want to eat at a time I didn't want to eat it, really. Maybe make that mindset shift. They want to be with you at dinner time, but you can have a mug of some clean fast approved beverage that you like, and you could sit there with them and be with your family.

Melanie Avalon: I understand because it can be hard if you feel like, if it's awkward or you feel the odd one out, or that you're not partaking, goodness knows I think it took probably 10 years for my family to finally accept my craziness when it comes to-- whether or not I'm eating at certain get-togethers. I wish there was a really easy answer for this.

Gin Stephens: I will always eat at a gathering if it's window worthy. I'll have a longer window, too. I don't mind having two meals in a day if the food is really window worthy, and I want to eat it. I have no problem with that. I am cheesy, I'm not going to open it just because everybody's eating or it's expected we're all going to eat right now.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if she can't do dinner with her family, not eat, drink water or whatever. And if everybody is completely accepting and normal, or if that's like that works for everybody, that would be my suggestion. I just don't know if it feels strange. I don't know how old our kids are either.

Gin Stephens: I think modeling a healthy relationship with food is the most important thing. When you do eat, let them see you eat and model that you're not stressed about it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, definitely. Definitely that.

Gin Stephens: Because all those diets that I did over the years, I'm sure that modeled a lot more craziness than intermittent fasting when people see me eat the foods that I love with gusto.

Melanie Avalon: This made me think of one other thing. Can I share it?

Gin Stephens: No, I'm sorry, you are not allowed to share anything else. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I feel bad going on tangents, but it's good advice. One of the other things because Dr. Goldhamer who I interviewed yesterday, he also wrote a book called The Pleasure Trap. There's a chapter in it, because he obviously talks a lot about fasting in the book, or following really intense diets. There's a section on dealing with social pressures. I know, this isn't quite relate because this is not social pressure from her family, but just for those who are struggling with social pressures. He points out that the route of pressure that we get from people to break our diet or not follow our diet, or whatever we're doing really has two main routes. It's either a lack of knowledge on their part, like not understanding the reasons for the diet or the fasting, or it's embarrassment from the other person because people often become really self-conscious about their own choices. It becomes a mirror to other people about their own choices. The thing I really liked that nice tool takeaway was for the first option, where people just don't have a knowledge surrounding it. They call it the Seems Approach.

They said, rather than saying, like, really confidently, and you should be confident, but rather than being super, like, “Oh, I'm doing this because this is the way it needs to be and this is healthy and this is going to change my life,” and blah, blah, blah. Just make everything less committal and make it about it seems. It seems to me that this might help me or It seems that I'm feeling better, or it seems, that can come off as a lot less abrasive to people and a lot less scary. I liked that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, frame it around like how it works for you.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, how it seems to be working. Yeah, Becky, let us know what you settle on. Could you do both? Could you do the lunch some days and then some days you have family dinner?

Gin Stephens: Yep. Also, if you're fasting 18 hours, that gives you six hours for an eating window. You could really just have a smaller lunch and a smaller dinner.

Melanie Avalon: I thought about that, but she says she likes eating one big meal and eating everything at once.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's none of them seem to be perfect. She likes to eat lunch, and she likes to eat dinner, and she likes to eat one meal. Something's going to have to give. There's no way to do all those things.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, maybe you could do a 80% lunch and then like, nibbling at dinner?

Gin Stephens: That's a great suggestion.

Melanie Avalon: Make your dinner the dessert and you just nibble on.

Gin Stephens: Something small. Yeah, really good idea. Substantial lunch, little bit with the family.

Melanie Avalon: That's what they say. I don't like saying it because it crystallizes a approach that I don't think is necessarily needs to be crystallized, but the breakfast like a king lunch, like a-- What is it? Breakfast like a king, lunch like a something, dinner like a--

Gin Stephens: Pauper? I don't know what the middle is.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe could do a lunch like a king, dinner like a pauper approach.

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Gin Stephens: All right, now we have a question from Amanda. The subject is Maca or Maca Root, Katie's Question Episode 187. Hi, Gin and Melanie, love the podcasts. You two are a huge part of my life as I spend hours a week with you.” Yay, that was just me. “I wanted to respond to Katie's question, second try has been brutal from this week's podcast number 187. Katie said she started adding maca root to her protein shakes. I was having similar problems getting IF to work as well as it had been. I believe underlying stress is the root cause. Unfortunately, I do not have answers. However, I do know what was not an answer for me. maca root. I experimented with maca root to help balance hormones hoping for relief. This is when things got worse. I felt heavier and got heavier. Research led me to find articles and YouTube videos of people who want to gain weight using maca to achieve this. I had no idea weight gain could be a side effect. I was taking maca powder. Perhaps side effects vary based on dose type, whether taken topically or orally. Sometimes what works for one person,can have the opposite effect on another. Hormones are so complicated. Have you heard of this side effect? Are there other solutions like this, which may be detrimental to some? Thanks for all you do, Amanda.” Again, if I said it wrong, it's maca or maca, or whichever.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I love this question from Amanda not so much to like, go on a whole tangent about-- I say maca about maca, but more because I think she highlighted something that really, really is huge for a lot of people. I'm thinking it's something to think about more, and that's exactly what she said is that a lot of these supplements, a lot of these foods, a lot of these things, especially things that have hormonal effects. It's often easy to think, “Oh, it does this one thing for everybody, and that's what it's going to do, and that's why I should take it.” When really it can be it-- I mean, so many things can have different effects on so many people. She found a good example apparently of maca where some people are taking it for their stress and the help their workouts and maybe lose weight from that, but then some people are taking it to gain weight.

I don't actually have a lot of thoughts on maca. I don't take it myself. I think it's really important for listeners to be aware that if they are taking something that's typically something like a supplement that's not a straight-up food, definitely do your research and definitely see how it's making you feel. If it's not providing the effects that you're looking for, definitely be open to not taking it anymore.

Gin Stephens: This is one Dr. Cabeca really likes, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Dr. Cabeca really likes maca. I don't want to scare people away from maca, because a lot of people do do well with it. I know one of the tribes well known for using it, I think they call it-- I think Dr. Cabeca talks about this, but you have some really fancy name for it. It means like wonder or something-- They use it for vitality and energy, and it's like, the bee's knees if that phrase is still used today.

Gin Stephens: Well, as you know, we're all so different with our bodies and the foods and the supplements that work for us. I think I told this story on the podcast, maybe two years ago. I don't know it was a long time ago, but a friend of mine was taking the supplement that she said, I started taking, blah, blah, blah, whatever it was, and it was so fabulous. It made me feel so much better. I'm like, “Oh, I'm going to take that too.” So, I'll start taking it. Just because she said she was taking it.

Melanie Avalon: I remember that. What was it?

Gin Stephens: I can't remember what it was, but she had some kind of one of those genetic things that it's for, if you've got this, whatever.

Melanie Avalon: I remember that. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I started to feel so terrible. I started to feel anxious. Then I was like, “Could it be the supplement?” I looked it up. Yeah, it was the supplement. She was taking it for this genetic, whatever that she's got that I don't have. It made me feel terrible. It was the wrong thing for me. So, that taught me a very huge lesson. At that point, I was like, “Never take something just because someone you know said it is great for them.” Figure out why they're taking it, what's the purpose? Do you have that same need for it? Isn't going to do the same thing for you and trust how you feel?

Melanie Avalon: 100%. Shall we go to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so the next question, it comes from Katie. The subject is Sleep Paleo and a Plateau. Oh, my. Katie says hello, “Gin and Melanie, thank you so much for your podcast. I have both of your books, although it took me a while to get What Went Wine, as I am a recovering alcoholic, and I didn't think it would apply to me. However, I recently switched to paleo and it clicked. I needed Melanie's book. I'll try to keep it short, but also want to give you the full picture, so you can answer my question armed with all of the facts.

I began IF in June 2020, following my mom's lead. She started in May. I have over a decade long history of chronic restrictive dieting. When I began IF, I allowed myself #allthethings I had restricted for years. I'm a 35-year-old mother of two boys, six and nine.” She says, “Gin help.”

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Oh, yeah. They're just starting to smelly years.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my. “I am 4’11”, and my starting weight was 151 pounds. The first 20 pounds came off easily. All the while eating everything I wanted to and my window. I started 16:8, and I am now at about 24 I. have hit the dreaded plateau. The scale has not moved in months. I decided to clean up my diet, but I refuse to count calories because of my obsessive dieting history. I tried keto. My mom has lost 50 pounds doing IF and keto, not for me. Two weeks ago, I decided to attend paleo, bought Melanie's book and was ready to dive in. I have not been perfect and the scale has moved slightly, but I am hovering just above 130 pounds, which I've been at for four months and I want desperately to be in the 120s. My ultimate goal is around 110 pounds.

My question is, is there any further tweaking I can do to reach my goal? I know, I know. Alternate day fasting. Sigh. I take medication every day, which needs to be taken with food and honestly ADF scares me. I don't think I can stop it just 500 calories because once it starts eating, I don't want to stop. I’ve red light device, wearable weights, BiOptimizers products and BluBlox. My credit card is not thank you, lol. I take progesterone as I experience horrible menstrual symptoms, nausea, lower abdominal pain and migraines many days of the month. I have interstitial cystitis and ASPD, advanced sleep phase disorder. So, my sleep schedule is wack. I go to bed early 6:00 PM and rise early 2:00 or 3:00 AM, and wake several times during the night to go to the restroom. I'm overheated. Or if my kids took over my bed.” Does she get up and stay up after 3:00 AM? She goes to bed at 6:00? Wow, that is so interesting.

She says, “Is this just a classic case of my body has reached its new setpoint, and the best I can hope for is body composition through fasting and weight training? Oh yeah, I forgot to mention I work out four to five days a week, alternating between cardio days and lifting days. I think I've been listening to you gals long enough to know what you might say, but I wanted to pick your brain anyways. Maybe there's something else I'm not thinking of. Could it be stress? My sleep schedule? I've adjusted my eating window to around noon to 4:00, since I go to bed so early. Do I just need to get this paleo way of life more time and trust the process? Plus, I wanted to tell you how amazing and beautiful I think you both are.” So nice. She says, “And thank you so much for all of your hard work and dedication. I was a member of both of your Facebook groups until I decided to deactivate my account due to a lot of negativity surrounding current events. It was messing with my vibe. Thank you so much, Katie.”

Gin Stephens: All right. Well, thank you, Katie. You're really still very new to intermittent fasting since you started in June. I think the fact that you have a history of chronic restrictive dieting is very important. If you've been doing chronic restrictive dieting for years prior to starting intermittent fasting, it's going to take your body longer to trust you. The first 20 pounds came off easily, and now you are feeling stuck. So, you did just switch up what you're eating two weeks ago and then you said towards the end there, do you need to get this way of life more time and trust the process the paleo way of life? I will say yes to that. You've only been changing what you're eating for two weeks. You definitely need to give that some more time. I would I'd be patient with that.

I hear you on not wanting to do alternate daily fasting because the idea of it sounds scary. You said you don't think you can stop at just 500 calories. Here's something that's interesting. A lot of people say that, and then they try it, and then they realize, “Oh, if I choose strategically for my down day meal, it really can be a filling amount of food.” It's just a matter of choosing food that's really going to fill you up and make you feel satisfied from it. If I have 500 calories snack packs of something, I'd be ravenous. Of course, you're not going to do that because you're eating paleo, but you get my point. 500 calories can be nothing that substantial, or it can be a really, really filling and satisfying meal. So, if your normal window has been between noon and 4:00, I bet if you ate something paleo, a large 500 calorie paleo substantial something at 4:00, then you would be satisfied and you would want to stop because you'd be full. Then the next day would be an up day and see that's where the key is going to be. I think you might need some metabolic boosting. Which is why I think ADF would be so good for you, because of that, that chronic restrictive dieting that you've done for so long.It's going to take time for your body to really start to trust you again.

That's what I would recommend. Don't be afraid of that 500 calorie meal, and the key is just to find something that's going to satisfy you, and make you feel you've had a big meal because you really can eat a large volume of food for a 500 calorie down day meal. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: The biggest thing I saw, reading this was reevaluating the seeming plateau because she says the weight hasn't moved in months. Then, she says she started paleo and not even 100% paleo, and the scale moved in two weeks. That sounds to me you're at a plateau, you started doing paleo, not even complete paleo, and the scale started moving again. To me, I echo what Gin said. This was the main thing I was going to say was 100% give the paleo approach longer because it sounds like it actually is doing something, doesn't sound to me, like it's--

Gin Stephens: Maybe she needs a Shapa scale because really, I can't express highly enough how important it is to have a way of knowing what your overall trend is doing. Are you weighing daily and then calculating your weekly average, you can do that yourself. Or you could go buy a Shapa of color, or you can use the Happy Scale app that does that for you as well, if you need to see the number. But all of those things can really help you see your overall trend, because I know my weight fluctuated a lot. And it wasn't until I started using the trend method of weekly averaging that I finally was able to feel confident that I was making progress, of course, this was way back in 2014, but it saved my sanity. It was the only time I didn't quit, when I started focusing on the trend, was the only time in my life that I didn't quit something..

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I am really liking the Shapa scale.

Gin Stephens: The calibration period is the annoying part, I get it. In order to really have the good statistical, you've got to go through that.

Melanie Avalon: I like how it gives you like a message about how you're doing.

Gin Stephens: You feel like it likes you.

Melanie Avalon: I know. You feel like it's on your side. Normally the scale feels like, ugh, but it's like this scale is on my side. One other thing about the paleo though, it's hard to know what that looks like. Are you pretty much doing-- I'm assuming listeners are very familiar with paleo, but if you're not, it's basically eliminating, and the way I talk about it in my book What When Wine, which I really recommend listeners get if they are at all interested in trying the paleo whole foods approach. It's basically eliminating grains, processed foods. I have it by yes, no, and maybe. Usually eliminating most legumes, dairy, things like that, but there are layers, and you can find what works for you. I would recommend for Katie, if you can commit 100% to the paleo and sticking it out. That can be huge. With being not doing it completely, I don't know what that other stuff that you're having in is. It's really hard to speak to that. When all else fails, going the whole foods route, I think, not the store--

Gin Stephens: I'd be out of luck if I had to go to the store, since we don't have one.

Melanie Avalon: Although I do go to Whole Foods every day. Oh, that's right. I get so sad every time you see that. The foods that are whole route. Actually, something else Dr. Goldhamer said yesterday, which I've been thinking a lot. It's haunting me, and I'm like, “I don't know, maybe this is true.” He actually thinks it is impossible to be obese if you eat completely whole foods plant-based diet, which I thought was really interesting.

Gin Stephens: Whole foods, plant-based?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Only whole plants.

Gin Stephens: That's interesting. Now, I don't know. I'm trying to think about that. It's really hard to do, though for me, like nothing, but plants.

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. I don't advocate it. I talked to him about this on the show. I do think there is massive role and benefit for a lot of people animal protein.

Gin Stephens: I just get so hungry, like so hungry.

Melanie Avalon: I will say though, because, basically, I try to not be on Facebook all the time, especially since I do a lot in my own group. The groups that I flirt between are polar opposites. They're basically like the low carb keto carnivore groups and then they're like the fruitarian 80/10/10 groups just because I'm so fascinated that people thrive on these shockingly different approaches. I will see a lot of people in the fruitarian, 80/10/10, like whole foods plant-based will say that the lowest weights they are is when they're doing that and they're basically-- it's like they can't enough to--

Gin Stephens: The fruitarian.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-Hmm. Especially fruitarian people say they like they can't eat enough to actually maintain the weight. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying do fruitarian, but I'm saying there's definitely something to eating completely whole foods.

Gin Stephens: The skinniest I ever was, I was not eating whole foods. I've talked about this before, but when I was eating really, really low fat, I looked really terrible. I was eating junk. Sigh. No, that's not recommended. Now we know better.

Melanie Avalon: She said keto didn't work for her. Just want to count calories. Yeah, especially if you don't want to count calories, the whole foods paleo approach. So, encourage you to stick it out, get a Shapa scale, and then tweak things from there. I will say I have a hack for keto that people don't talk about. I don't really ever see people talking about it.

Gin Stephens: All right, I've got a guess as to what it might be, but I'm not going to say my guess. But go ahead and say it. Let me see if it's what? I'll tell you if that was what my guess was.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. If you find that keto does work for you, but you're not losing the weight. If you make the entirety as much as you can, the entirety of the fats, the MCT C8 oil, just give that a try. Basically, like instead of fatty meats, and butter, and nuts, and all that, lean meats, green vegetables, and have the fat be MCT oil C8 only, I think it can actually make a lot of people lose a lot of weight. It's all the effects of keto, but the C8 MCT is the least likely-- I mean, it's very unlikely you're going to store it as fat, it doesn't really get stored as fat. It just massively boosts your metabolism, keeps you in ketosis, and the weight often can drop off. A lot people will think they're doing this with coconut oil only, but coconut oil actually has a lot of saturated fat in it. It's not just the medium chain triglycerides. You could do just like normal MCT oil, which is usually C8, C10. But if you do just C8, and I'll put a link in the show notes. They make this. This isn't hard to get it, it's on Amazon. That's my hack. Was that what you're thinking?

Gin Stephens: I knew it was going to be something about tweaking your fat, because I think that's something that-- For me, I know, I tried keto and my macros were perfect. It didn't work for me. I think a lot of it, if I’d eaten, it like you said, with the different fat. I had a lot of dairy fat.

Melanie Avalon: I think I went through a phase where I was doing what I just said. I wasn't counting calories.

Gin Stephens: Is that when you were like dipping your chicken in the--

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, the MCT oil. I love the way it taste. Well, basically, it actually creates like an umami effect. It really just accentuates the flavor of whatever you are eating.

Gin Stephens: After that bad experience I had with MCT oil, I'll never buy it again.

Melanie Avalon: Which one did you take? Well, I guess it was--

Gin Stephens: I don't remember, but it was-- Oh, no, I'm not getting it.

Melanie Avalon: If you do get it, listeners, I have done my vetting. Get the one that I list. It's in glass only. Yeah, get that one. I probably in the period where I was doing that really intensely-- I mean, I was probably eating 4000 or 5000 calories a day, and I am losing weight.

Gin Stephens: I've told you my story before with my MCT oil shots.

Melanie Avalon: Oh yeah.

Gin Stephens: It was my anniversary of 2015. Yes, it was my anniversary.

Melanie Avalon: Your marriage anniversary or your fasting anniversary?

Gin Stephens: My marriage anniversary, is my anniversary with my husband. I had read this book, I was still in those wacky groups that were all doing crazy diet things and someone had read the Shangri-La Diet. We were all talking about the Shangri-La Diet and how--

Melanie Avalon: I remember that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you remember that diet? You were supposed to chug olive oil, but not tasted. That was the whole theory of that one. I was like, “Well, I'm going to chug MCT oil instead,” and it was supposed to reset your appetite and make you not hungry or something about the way your body, anyway. I can't remember it. It has a very interesting premise. That was just a theory. I was like, “I'm going to chug this MCT oil.” I took a shot, and then we were going to go out to dinner with my-- I was going with my husband. So, you're supposed to take the oil away from food. I chugged the MCT oil, and, oh my gosh. [laughs] Can you just say digestive upset? It went straight through me. Well, at home before I went to the restaurant-- it wasn't anything embarrassing in public. I didn't have an accident, but I felt like I might, was about to, and it was so painful. My stomach hurt so bad. We went to this great Italian restaurant. I was like, “I've got bathroom, I’ll be back.” [laughs] I'm a little-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, listeners, definitely proceed with caution because that's very common response. I was actually talking with James Clement, who wrote the book, The Switch, who I've had on the show, and we were talking about it and about the response that people have because you can also get-- we were trying to figure out the mechanism of action behind it because he was trying it and it made him nauseous. We were trying to think like, why is that? Is it liver processing it? Its effect on bacteria populations? Endotoxin? I don't know. So, go slow.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's like my body rejected it and wanted it out. Let me just put it that way.

Melanie Avalon: Do proceed with caution if you try this crazy hack.

Gin Stephens: However, if you're having trouble with constipation, it might be a solution.

Melanie Avalon: It is good for that.

Gin Stephens: Anyhow. I can laugh about it now. It was painful. My stomach hurt so badly. It was not something I'll ever forget. Good times. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Good times. [laughs] All right. Wow, this is an absolutely wonderful. Few things for listeners before we go. You can submit your own questions to the podcast, just go to questions@ifpodcast.com. Or, you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. Gin, I'm doing Instagram all the time now. Are you?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. People are commenting. They're like, “Listening to you talk about Instagram makes this so much more funny.” Like, looking at the pictures.

Gin Stephens: Here's another picture of my cat. Here's another picture of my Christmas tree. [laughs] Okay, I'll do it right now. I'm going to take a picture of this little Christmas tree while I'm recording the podcast--

Melanie Avalon: And say, “This is the Instagram that Melanie's forcing me to post.”

Gin Stephens: I'm doing it right now. All right.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to like it.

Gin Stephens: Okay, I hope you like it. Everybody can go back to Instagram and see what Gin posted on November 28. They’d be like, “Oh, that was when she was recording the podcast.” It's so hard to post things on.

Melanie Avalon: Did I tell you? I took a picture with your book, but I haven't posted it yet. Oh, at Target. Friends, do that. Go to Target and get Fast. Feast. Repeat. and take a picture and tag Target. Right?

Gin Stephens: Yes, please do that. Target loves to see and they call people guests. Target loves to see their guests sharing things. So, please do so.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Follow us on Instagram. I'm MelanieAvalon, Gin is GinStephens. I think that is everything. Oh, I didn't even say this whole episode, the show notes are at ifpodcast.com/episode192. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go.

Gin Stephens: Nope. Not a thing.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Dec 13

Episode 191: Weight Regain, Relaxing Protocols, Slowing Metabolism, Fat Burning, Fat Metabolism, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 191 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! Go To ButcherBox.Com/IFPODCAST For Free Bacon For Life!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX:  Go To ButcherBox.Com/IFPODCAST For Free Bacon For Life!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #70 - Kara Collier (Nutrisense)

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #68 - Glenn Livingston, Ph.D.

FEALS: Go To https://feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

Listener Feedback: Sarah - Update from the girl who lost weight during quarantine

Get My Shapa Scale And Use The Promo Code IFStories To Save $20

JOOVV:  For A Limited Time To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A Robyn - Where does the fat go when we lose weight?

Kiss my Keto C8 MCT Oil

Join Melanie's Facebook Group If You're Interested In The Lumen Breath Analyzer, Which Tells Your Body If You're Burning Carbs Or Fat! You Can Learn More In Melanie's Episode With The Founder (The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #43 - Daniel Tal) And Get $50 Off A Lumen Device At MelanieAvalon.com/Lumen With The Code melanieavalon50

The Cancer Code: A Revolutionary New Understanding of a Medical Mystery (Dr. Jason Fung)

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 191 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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And for all you bacon lovers out there, ButcherBox provides the type of bacon you want. Their bacon is heritage breed, free of sugar and free of nitrates. How are is that to find? And they have an incredible offer for our audience. You can get that bacon free for life. When you sign up as a new member at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, you will get a package of free bacon in every box for the life of your subscription. Yes, that's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, and I'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in. Are you looking for the perfect gifts this holiday season for yourself and others? Well, the average male uses six skincare products per day, the average female uses 12. And as it turns out, conventional skincare and makeup is full of toxins. We're talking things like endocrine disrupters, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight, and even carcinogens linked to cancer. So, while you may be fasting clean, you may be putting compounds directly into your body during the fast that can be affecting both your health and weight loss. Thankfully, there's an easy solution.

There's a company called Beautycounter and they make an array of skincare makeup products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about all of the ingredients that you put on. Their products are even tested multiple times for heavy metals. And for the holiday season, Beautycounter has so many amazing gift sets. These are bundled products at a discount, and they make incredible gifts. Think about it. You can get the products for yourself or for your friends and family and help clean up their skincare, all in disguise of gift-giving. Works pretty well. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you're trying to figure out exactly which products to get, check out my Beautycounter quiz, that's at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. And for the latest discounts and giveaways from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 191 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm cold.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: And how does that feel?

Gin Stephens: It feels cold. Yeah. Got my mug of warm water, holding it in my hands. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I get so happy every time I walk outside.

Gin Stephens: I know. I was standing in the sun trying to find some warmth.

Melanie Avalon: I got sort of schooled by the maintenance man yesterday because my air conditioner was out of freon, so it was freezing over every night, despite it being cold. He was lecturing me-- He was saying that air conditioners are built to maintain normal air conditioning temperatures.

Gin Stephens: Do you have your set to be too cold?

Melanie Avalon: Apparently. I set it at 60 a night.

Gin Stephens: That's pretty cold.

Melanie Avalon: But I was confused. I was like, “If it's cold outside, shouldn't it be easier for the air conditioner?” He was like, “It doesn't matter.” He was like, “I'll fix the freon, but you can't be doing this.”

Gin Stephens: Now see, I did hear when we had in our other house, we got a big lecture on the air conditioner can only cool your house a certain number of degrees below what it is outside. I'm like, “I don't think that's true because I go places and it's really cold there.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, and the thing is, during the winter, it would be colder outside than 60.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. You should be able to be 60 in the cold temperatures.

Melanie Avalon: It was a distressing conversation because I'm a very rules-oriented society person. So, when I'm being told I'm doing something wrong, I get really upset. Not really upset, but I want to do what's right, but I want it to be cold, so I don't know what to do about this situation.

Gin Stephens: I don't know. Based on the conversation I had where I was told it was impossible to get it that temperature-- and I don't argue with people to their face but I remember thinking, then how come when I go to stores and it's so freezing cold? It's way colder. I mean, that's not even true. That just sounds like an excuse.

Melanie Avalon: That is not correct.

Gin Stephens: That is not true. Anyway, I just had a really interesting conversation this week with the people from the PREDICT study.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, do tell.

Gin Stephens: It was so fantastic. It was just me talking to them on a call. You know that I did the PREDICT 3 with the ZOE app where I wear the continuous blood glucose monitor. Then, I got my results back. Here's a little funny part of that. They sent me an email. I just did the study as a person. I signed up using my regular email, I used my name, I didn't hide who I was, but I didn't say, “Hi, I'm Gin Stephens. I've written a book.” I didn't say, I didn't contact them.

Melanie Avalon: I'm guessing, they figured this out.

Gin Stephens: They did. They sent me an email, they're like, “Your results are ready. We would also like to have a conversation with you and go over your results with our head nutritionist and our head researcher.” I'm like, “That's pretty good customer service.” [laughs] We're on the call. I asked the people that did it at the same time I did, a couple of the moderators. I was like, “Did they offer to sit down with you?” They're like, “No.” I'm like, “Well, that's interesting.” When we got on the call, I was like “Okay, I'm just going to ask. Do y'all do this with everybody?” They're like, “No. We know who you are.” I'm like, “Okay.”

Melanie Avalon: That is so funny.

Gin Stephens: It was amazing, though, talking to them. They work with Tim Spector, and he's a gut expert. He's also the guy, Melanie, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, you may be, the COVID app that's in the UK? The COVID symptoms app, that's gotten a lot of press? That's his app.

Melanie Avalon: What does it do?

Gin Stephens: I don't know. It's a COVID symptoms indicator app where-- he's collecting data. It's a COVID research. But that's him. They were talking about that as well. That's what he's known for right this minute. He's the-- the British Gut Project. He studied twins. He's really interested in the interplay of how important is our genetic profile to our factors of life. Now, he's also exploring the interplay with gut microbiome through these PREDICT studies, but it's fascinating to talk to them. And so, drumroll please, I am going to follow the recommendations they're giving me based on my CGM data and my gut analysis.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to do it for one month. They want you to do it for four weeks, and I was like, “You know how I am. I don't like to be told what to eat. I just want to eat the foods that I want to eat, the foods that are delicious.” Apparently, you know how I said my blood glucose was fabulous because it didn't go up and down like crazy-crazy? Apparently, my blood glucose control’s not great, and neither is my blood fat clearance. Well, I'm not surprised about the blood fat clearance at all. They're basing it on two different tests with the muffins. The first muffin I think was a really high sugar muffin. I had to wait a few hours, then eat the second set of muffins that are really high fat, muffin. Then, I had to do blood samples a certain amount of time after each muffin. So, they wanted to see how quickly my blood cleared the fat or whatever. Apparently, I did not clear fat quickly.

Melanie Avalon: I have a question.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Blood samples. When you did the test, did you do a finger prick to yourself?

Gin Stephens: Yes, it was a finger prick, and you have to squeeze out so much blood, it was a lot harder.

Melanie Avalon: I could not have done that, Gin.

Gin Stephens: It was harder than I thought it would be.

Melanie Avalon: You have to squeeze out onto a piece of paper, or into like a--

Gin Stephens: Onto this little collection strip thing that you have to make it go--

Melanie Avalon: I'd be fainting in my apartment.

Gin Stephens: You know how on a pregnancy test, it goes up that way-- You've probably never done a pregnancy test, but if you do a pregnancy test, it goes up a little wick and then you see it go to the window and it goes along the strip. Well, this was a blood test, where you had to keep dropping the blood until it went a certain amount of the strip.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, like a blood glucose monitor?

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean, this was a lot. It was not just like doing-- no, it was not like that.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, that concept, but a lot of blood.

Gin Stephens: That concept, but so much blood. I was like, “What is happening?” It took a lot of blood, but anyway, my blood did not clear the fat well, and also, apparently the blood glucose-- but I also never eat really sweet sugary things in isolation.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Oh, my goodness, can we talk about this a little bit? I have thoughts.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I have so many thoughts I want to talk about. The first thing is you're saying that just now, you don't normally eat sugar in isolation, but you're eating-- I'm just wondering if this is what they're thinking because lot of people who follow low carb diets and aren't eating carbs at all, that's when they have issues with clearing glucose, but if you eat carbs as a part of your normal diet, then I don't know how much that applies to that. I don't know if you're saying that.

Gin Stephens: I know that the results of them looking at my CGM, they said I did not-- Anyway, I'm trying to do the wording that it says, my clearing of the sugar was not what they expected. It was low. Poor blood sugar control after the challenge.

Melanie Avalon: So, did it stay too high for too long?

Gin Stephens: I don’t know. I don't know what their parameters were.

Melanie Avalon: I interviewed Nutrisense this week, CGM. Listeners, I know we've been talking about CGMs a lot, but they're just so amazing. That said, now I have on my third CGM, and yours was Freestyle Libre as well, right?

Gin Stephens: It was. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I have on my third CGM right now. I've done three rounds, two weeks each time. This is something I'm wondering, did they for the study, have you test and make sure the CGM was accurate?

Gin Stephens: By doing what?

Melanie Avalon: With a blood glucometer?

Gin Stephens: Oh, no.

Melanie Avalon: See, this is what I'm really, really wondering about. I'm wondering if they take this into consideration. Did they talk at all about checking for accuracy of CGMs?

Gin Stephens: They did not talk about that, no.

Melanie Avalon: Because what I've realized with this experimentation is, the first CGM-- and these are all Freestyle Libres, but using different apps, so Levels versus Nutrisense, but Levels versus Nutrisense doesn't affect the accuracy of the Freestyle Libre. The first one I wore, it was off consistently, and this is what I learned when I interviewed the Nutrisense founder. She said, “They can be off, but the precision is almost 100%.” What that means is that if it's off by 10 or 15 points, it doesn't change the accuracy of the patterns and how it's changing. So, that will be 100% accurate, but if the baseline is off, it might mean that every time you test, it's off by a certain amount.

Gin Stephens: I don't feel like that was a problem because it was in a very expected range. All of my numbers were in a very expected range that were not surprising. I didn't get highs like you would expect someone who's type 2 diabetic to get. I didn't get the giant highs. But after I had their challenge muffin, whatever my blood glucose did after that wasn't fabulous. That's what they're basing that on, plus all the data over the time. I feel really good about the range being from where it went up to and where it went down to. It didn't have unexpected lows or unexpected highs. So, it feels like a good solid range.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, just what I'm wondering is, do you know how many participants they have in the study?

Gin Stephens: Lots and lots, and they've been doing different rounds of it. PREDICT 1, PREDICT 2, PREDICT 3. This is really cutting edge. What they're doing is, I would really say, is the gold standard in nutrition research, is the cutting edge of that.

Melanie Avalon: I would die to talk to them. I wonder if they are more looking at the precision and the changes and taking into account the potential for the inaccuracies and the calibration that would be needed because what I've experienced with the first CGM I wore, it was off by 10 to 15 points, which is okay. I think that's actually within the expected what they say, it can be off by. Second one was spot on, like spot on, it matched my meter exactly. The one I'm wearing right now is off by 20 to 30 consistently, like every time. When I look at the number, and like I said, I'm using both Levels and Nutrisense, this one right now is Levels, and Levels doesn't let you calibrate it. With Nutrisense, you can go in and say, “Hey, it's actually off by 20, and it'll affect it, it'll change what you see.” Levels doesn't do that. So, right now, every time I see that number, I'm like, “Okay, well, I know it's 20 lower than that.” I wonder, I'm really curious, and the reason I'm talking about this is because I really want listeners to get CGMs because you can learn so much about yourself. But I really, really encourage you if you do get one and you suspect that it might be off to test it-- but then once, even if it is off, like I said by a certain amount, it won't change the accuracy of the changes. It's just the baseline is wrong.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't think mine was off. It never went up crazy high, number-wise, or down crazy low. It was within a range that seemed logical to me. Also, it was fascinating talking to them about the gut analysis because I had my gut analyzed in 2017. She talked about the differences and how far they've come since 2017 and their sequencing of the gut microbiome. They know way more now than they knew in 2017, like exponentially more. I have a list of foods, they have an app, and I'm supposed to put things in and try to get a certain number, and it's based on all the factors that they collected about me, all the data. The way that I mix foods together, they don't want me to have too much fat, which so doesn't surprise me, that does not surprise me one bit.

It was also fascinating talking to their lead researcher about-- We talked about intermittent fasting and the latest studies that are out, and she was great. We talked about the early time-restricted feeding and some studies we'd like to see. I would love to work with them in the future, and they seemed interested in collaborating with the intermittent fasting community because they're very interested in time-restricted eating, and how that affects people.

Melanie Avalon: It's really exciting.

Gin Stephens: It was really exciting. It was such a great call to have and to talk to someone of that caliber. I know you talked to the people who do research all the time, because with your Biohacking Podcast, but it was great to talk to-- because they're pure scientific researchers, that's what they do. They're in the academic community and being able to have a conversation about research methodologies. It was fascinating.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I love it. It's so fun.

Gin Stephens: I did not sound like a moron having that conversation. I was able to have it. That's why it felt great.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's nice when you're engaging in a dialogue and you understand everything they're saying, you can understand what they're saying.

Gin Stephens: Right. They're listening respectfully to your ideas as well. That was really nice.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, you have to keep us updated on the--

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm going to, and I'm going to have to do it. So, you can probably hear in my voice. Yeah, I like to eat what I like to eat. To hear that, gosh, maybe that isn't working as well for me as I thought. I just want to see what happens. I don't need to lose weight. I'm not doing it to try to lose weight. I just want to see, “Am I going to notice a difference in how I feel?”

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. And then, a resource for listeners, I'll put a link in the show notes, too. I doubt either of those interviews will have aired about the CGMs. But you can get a Nutrisense CGM at-- I have a discount now at melanieavalon.com/nutrisensecgm, and the code is MelanieAvalon for 15% off.

Gin Stephens: So, is that the one you like the best?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I'm surprised if I was going to say that. Well, Levels is on a waitlist anyway, so when I have a code for them, it will get you to the front of the waitlist, but Nutrisense is available now. And they're both using Freestyle Libre, so there's no difference there. And I really think that Calibration feature is really, really important. I like both of them. But, yeah, I do like Nutrisense a lot.

Gin Stephens: That sounds great. I'm really interested in as well. I would like to see if eating the foods that they recommend, if that makes a difference now that I have this--

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to have to put another CGM on so you can watch as you.

Gin Stephens: I know, but it's all in the name of science.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: But guess what is a food that's great for me?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, let me guess.

Gin Stephens: Beans! Oh, I said it already. Beans. Beans are great for me. Well, I would have been so upset if they weren't. They said potatoes are not great for me. So, I'm still a little salty about that.

Melanie Avalon: Do they want you on a higher-carb, lower-fat diet?

Gin Stephens: Well, it's not really either. It's certain carbs and certain fats and less fat, but not low fat. But not too much fat. It's not technically low fat or low carb. Like quinoa is a yes for me, but potatoes are no.

Melanie Avalon: Very interesting. It's also like the gut microbiome and everything.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Do you think it's because of the resistant starch in potatoes?

Gin Stephens: Well, that would not make it a no, that would make it more of a yes.

Melanie Avalon: Not necessarily, because if it's a--

Gin Stephens: Oh, you're talking about what's in my gut?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Not liking the resist-- I don't know. I don't know what it's all based on. This is the third round of the PREDICT study. They keep refining it as they find new things. They're not afraid to completely change the recommendation. They're like, “Alright, based on our new data,” because they did that during the PREDICT 2. I know a bunch of people that were going through it. They changed, they're like, “Alright, we got new data. So, here's the new list.” Everybody’s like, “What!?” It's the opposite of what I used to say. It was based on the new analysis. As they learn more, they change the recommendations to reflect what they're learning.

Melanie Avalon: As it should be.

Gin Stephens: Absolutely. That actually makes me have more confidence in them.

Melanie Avalon: Well, you'll have to keep us updated.

Gin Stephens: Well, we'll see. I'm starting it, like right after Thanksgiving, which is probably the craziest time in the world to be changing what you're eating, but I'm like, “Well, okay, I'm just going to do it. I'm going to do it.”

Melanie Avalon: Do it.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to do it.

Melanie Avalon: Can I do one more plug before we get to our questions?

Gin Stephens: Please do.

Melanie Avalon: The episode that airs today, when this comes out, it will be a while ago, I'm airing the Q&A with Glenn Livingston, the Never Binge Again. Friends, it's such a helpful episode because we did all about overeating triggers, emotional eating, like eating socially, the holidays. It's so helpful. He's so wonderful. It's a really powerful episode.

Gin Stephens: Well, I know that's something that listeners will really connect to, because a lot of people struggle with that. And then, they beat themselves up, and then they really shouldn't.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and his mindset, and his theory, and everything is just very freeing. In my opinion, and I've said before, I think it aligns really well with intermittent fasting because it's like fasting, you're fasting or you're eating. There's not all this debate and dialogue in your head about it. It's sort of like that with food.

Gin Stephens: Well, please share that in the Advanced group. And just in case, I'm not the person who approves the post, say, “Gin asked me to share this,” because the moderators might be like, “No. [laughs] Bad, Melanie, bad.” No, the moderators are amazing, and they're just looking out for-- we don't allow people to share random things, but you're not a random person, and this is not a random thing. So, please share it in the groups because I think it could be helpful, especially this time of year when people have so much emotion around what they're eating and when they're eating it. We're going to overeat, it's the holidays.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. There's so many valuable things that he says about all of that, with the emotions. Really quickly, I think we were going to start asking now, because this is Episode 191. Listeners for Episode 200, Gin and I are going to do another Ask Me Anything episode, so feel free to start submitting questions for that. You can ask us anything. To clarify, I mean, you can make it about intermittent fasting, but that's not the point. The point is it can be anything.

Gin Stephens: Anything.

Melanie Avalon: Anything. I'm not guaranteeing though to answer it.

Gin Stephens: But you can ask, and we might.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Because we did that on Episode 100. For anybody who's like-- if you have been listening since then, you heard it. Episode 100, Ask Us Anything. So, ask us anything, again.

Melanie Avalon: Episode 200. Crazy!

Gin Stephens: I feel people might know everything about me. Oh, did you know my bathroom is finished?

Melanie Avalon: I do now.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Now, everybody knows the bathroom is done.

Melanie Avalon: Everybody knows everything about you and your house.

Gin Stephens: Well yeah. You don't know that we're buying a house for Will to live in. We're buying this house.

Melanie Avalon: Now, we do.

Gin Stephens: Now, we do. We wouldn't looked at it on Wednesday. The guy who lives there is a hoarder.

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Gin Stephens: He's been living there for a long time. He's a renter.

Melanie Avalon: What does he hoard?

Gin Stephens: From what I could tell, maybe garbage, but I'm not making light of that because it made me really sad. I wanted to clean it up and help him. Hopefully, he's going to have to move because Will is going to move in. But hopefully, having to move will help him, I don't know, it's really, really sad to me. But there's more of it. So, we're going to be having to redo this. It's a little tiny cottage. You know how they say buy the worst house on the best street? That's what we're doing. We've been looking for months and haven't been able to find that thing. It's a tiny little one bedroom, one bath cottage that was built in the 60s and it has not been updated. It needs everything. We're going to rent it to our son as long as he wants to rent it from us, then we're going to rent it to other people, but we have a lot of work ahead of us.

Melanie Avalon: It's a big project.

Gin Stephens: We don't even know what it looks like. I'm just telling you. You couldn't see it.

Melanie Avalon: Because of the hoarding?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you really couldn't see it. Chad’s like, “What's the floor?” I'm like, “I don't know.” It doesn't matter. We're just going to buy it. We're going to--

Melanie Avalon: So, you did go in, though?

Gin Stephens: We did go in, but it makes me really sad for anyone who's suffering with whatever leads to hoarding.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I know, it's not an easy fix. My grandmother on my dad's side, that side of the family tends to have lots of piles of things. And, of course, we didn't even know we would go over there for holidays and run around the piles of things. We still had room to gather, but it wasn't like this house.

Melanie Avalon: Well, you have to keep us updated on that too.

Gin Stephens: Hopefully, the move will be a positive for him, and he'll clear some things out of his life. So anyway, yep. So, I'll have some more to share on that, but that should be a fun project for 2021.

Melanie Avalon: So many things.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah.

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All right, shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, we have a question from Sara. It's actually Sara update from the girl who lost weight during quarantine. She says, “Hi Gin and Melanie. I wrote to you a few months ago that after two years of a plateau at around 150 pounds, I finally got down to my lowest weight of 142 pounds during quarantine. I wanted to give you an update and ask a question. The good news is, I went on to lose a few more pounds and get to 139 for a total of 10 pounds lost during the first few months of quarantine and the lowest weight I'd seen since high school. The bad news is that now all my clothes are too small, and I weighed in this morning at, drumroll please, 159. I haven't weighed 159 since September of 2017, a couple months after I started fasting, and haven't even weighed above 155 since October of that same year. I am baffled. During my two-year plateau, I often hovered around 145 and never got above 152, even after going on cruises, having weeks of poor eating, etc. What happened? Here are the things I'm considering.”

I'm just going to jump in. This is me saying this, Melanie, but I have something in Fast. Feast. Repeat. for anyone who finds they're at a plateau or having trouble with regain. Ask yourself, honestly, what do you think it is that's going on? And you can probably tell, and I am going to tell you Sara has done that because she's got a list of things. I think Sara knows, but I'm going to read Sara's list of things. I really think people know, don't you?

Melanie Avalon: Quite often.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. If you really are honest with yourself, write down what you think it is, you're probably right. So, here's what Sara wrote down or sent to us. “Number one, once restaurants started opening again, I started ordering takeout and eating out more, outside only. When during those first few months of quarantine, I had been cooking only at home. However, during non-quarantine times, I do eat out a lot. Number two, I've been eating more frozen pizzas, frozen french fries, and processed food the last few months. I know, Melanie, PUFAs. Number three, I'm fasting less consistently than I was during those first two months of quarantine, but still fasting. Not counting, but probably range from 18 to 22 hours, with the very occasional longer eating windows, as well as the occasional longer fast.

Just for your reference, I started out fasting in 2017 at 179 pounds. I'm 31 years old and 5’2”. I don't count macros or calories or anything. I have been a non-strict pescatarian since 2015 and mostly eat veggies, although lately I've been adding in some red meat as well. I'm a little stressed, but not much more stressed than usual, I don't think. My main thought is that maybe I wrecked my metabolism during the first couple months of quarantine. I was fasting about 20 hours every day and eating to satiety. I never felt hungry, but maybe I wasn't eating enough. I never count calories but yesterday I tried calculating some of the meals I was eating during that first two months of quarantine when I lost weight and was coming out probably 1000 calories a day. That seems like very little. It's also possible that I'm just truly eating like garbage lately, and that it's having a hugely damaging effect on my body, although gaining 20 pounds in six months seems extreme, even for what I'm eating.

I feel like I can't restrict or it backfires. So, I'm just sort of writing it out. I'd love to hear your thoughts. I got to Lumen, hoping that maybe that'll help me or at least give me the motivation to pay more attention to what I'm eating while making it feel fun, and not as restrictive. Is it possible my metabolism has been lowered? When I was losing weight in 2017 and 2018, I'd often eat truly one meal a day, like one large breakfast burrito and that was it. I never thought I could be eating too little food because I do have some days where I eat a lot and others where I eat less and just trusted that. But just for your reference, during quarantine, I generally ate some combination of a bowl of rice with steamed veggies, avocado, and an egg, sometimes with some kind of sauce or with beans, chia seeds with yogurt, and fruit, a sandwich with a bunch of veggies, avocado and cream cheese or tzatziki,” is that how you say that, tzatziki?

Melanie Avalon: I do not know.

Gin Stephens: I've seen it. It's a Greek dressing but I've never read it out loud. And she said, “I've usually eat a combo of the rice bowl and chia seeds or a sandwich and chia seeds. Sometimes I would also bake chocolate chip banana bread and eat that as well. Is that too little food? I always felt full, but on paper, it looks like not very much. Thanks for your help and support. I've been listening to your podcast since 2017 and will never stop. Love you both, Sara.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, so thank you so much Sara for your question. To recap, from her first email, she originally lost weight during quarantine and now is stopping?

Gin Stephens: She lost eight pounds during quarantine. But now, she has rebounded and gone up to 159, so she's actually gained-- her plateau weight was 150, so she's nine pounds above her plateau weight after going down eight. She's gone up not quite 20 pounds. She's 17 pounds higher than her low.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I thought this was a really great question because I think this is something that happens a lot. I'm guessing Gin would agree since she has a section on it in the book. I find it really interesting, Sara, that you're doing fasting, you told us what you're eating, primarily whole foods, retroactively looking at the calories, it was less calories, and you were losing weight. During that time, you weren't hungry, you didn't feel you were starving, you're eating to satiety, it didn't feel to you like your metabolism was slowing down, but you didn't have a lot of signs of that. And then you lightened up on the fasting, and started eating a lot of processed foods.

Gin Stephens: And a lot of takeout.

Melanie Avalon: And a lot of takeout. I just find it really interesting because I think reading it on paper, it's what Gin said that if you are honest with yourself, it can be probably evident. I mean, we never know exactly what's going on, but it can be pretty evident as to what is probably going on. And so me just reading this, it really just sounds like you went from eating being in a calorie-restricted state fasting, to eating processed fattening, high-calorie foods. I think a lot of people do fasting and they clean up their diet, maybe or they're eating whole foods, and they lose weight, and that feels more motivating and they stick with it. Then some people, they lose the weight and it seems a liberty to or a green card to just eat whatever you want, and as long as you fast a certain amount of hours that that will completely mitigate any potential weight gain or damaging effects metabolically from the foods we're eating.

I just think this is so important to bring to awareness, and we've talked about this a lot on this show before, but I do think because fasting is becoming so popular, it is getting painted as this cure-all and in a way, it seems like what you're eating doesn't matter. I've been saying that from day one. I really, really think what you're eating, I think, is just as important as the fasting. I actually, honestly, if I had to choose between eating whole foods that work with your body, and never fast versus fasting, and eating processed foods like we have today, I would choose never fasting.

Gin Stephens: See, and I would choose the opposite. One study that backs that up, you know that rat study where they fed the rats a bunch of junk, but they got healthier, because they were fasting, even with the junk. I really think the fasting. I mean, I agree that both are important.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's almost a dialogue not worth having, but it is an interesting thing to think about. My reasonings behind that is-- and when I say like never fasting, I'm assuming that you would still have not like you're not eating literally 24 hours. So, you're still sleeping and not eating while you're sleeping. I mean eating what would be considered a normal eating pattern throughout the day. Just because I think there is a lot of potential damage that we can do with the signaling of the foods we eat, and fasting is a powerful signal for repair and cleanup and mitigating that damage, but if it's choosing between wielding a lot of potential damage with the food you're eating, and then “cleaning it up with fasting” compared to not having as much of that inflammatory signaling with the foods you're eating, it's hard to choose, but I would probably err towards that.

Gin Stephens: One reason that I feel so strongly that, start with the fasting, don't change what you're eating until your body tells you to, or until it feels right, is just because I've seen so many people in the groups who have their bodies naturally change with what they're craving. And so that takes care of itself down the line, if that makes sense. So, they fast and then they want to eat better, but it happens naturally. And so, they don't have to force it or try.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Exactly. That's why I’m saying, I think there's different types of people, and a lot of people, that's what ends up happening and they stay on that. And then, there's people like Sara, where you start slipping into old foods and then maybe you see fasting as being protective of that.

Gin Stephens: Right. I see what you're saying. Although they sound like comfort foods, those foods that she's listing, and I get it. Those foods are comforting, aren't they? French fries, pizzas?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think because we often want to keep in what we want to see what we want to see. So, it's easy to think, “Oh, well, I probably just messed up my metabolism with the fasting and that's what this is.” If you hadn't changed your food at all, and you were eating the same food, doing the same fasting and you experience all this weight gain, then there would definitely be something going on with that. But there's a huge change that's happened.

Gin Stephens: Right. And she's fasting less consistently. I actually have a suggestion for that. Somebody posted in the group one time that really-- I remember this. She said, “I thought I was fasting consistently, and I thought my fasting hadn't changed. So, I started using my app again, and realized I was fasting a lot less than I thought I was.” Sometimes, just writing it down, it gives you that accountability, you're like, “Oh, I thought I was less consistent, but I'm way less consistent.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 100%.

Gin Stephens: I also want to add, it sounds like the food changes, like you said, are a huge factor and the fasting less consistently, but I would really go back to what you were eating before those types of foods and see if that doesn't make things change right up for you. I’ve realized the PREDICT study really helped me to see this too, and the foods that are recommended and not recommended. One of the things they don't recommend I eat a ton of, cheese. Cheese is one of my favorite foods. I was looking, Melanie, I haven't weighed myself officially. I have my Shapa scale, but I haven't weighed myself on a scale where I see a number since 2017, but there have been periods of time where I felt like-- my pants got a little tighter, I've talked about this. My honesty pants got a little tighter, and I'm like, “What am I doing differently?” And then, I tighten things up, and then they got back to normal. At no time have I had to buy bigger clothes.

I was looking at my Facebook Memories the other day from a year ago, my face was so puffy. I think I had a little period of rebound weight gain right in that period of time because I was eating so many cheese plates. Did I talk about that on this podcast?

Melanie Avalon: Not about the cheese plates.

Gin Stephens: Well, I went to New York last October and had a couple of cheese plates at these really nice restaurants. I'm like, “I'm going to go home and make a cheese board every afternoon.” And I was just eating cheese like crazy. I think that made me a little puffy, and my honesty pants got tight. I'm like, “Oop, time to cut out the cheese boards.” And then, oop, right back to normal. Well, I went to the beach with my college friends, I talked about that. We ate a ton of cheese, and I brought a ton of cheese back home with me. And then I was eating a lot of cheese at home because I had all this leftover cheese and we really had a lot of cheese at the beach. All of a sudden, I saw gray on my Shapa. Gray is the color for your weight trend is up. I'm like, “Oop, there goes the cheese again.” Can I eat cheese? Yes. Should I have a huge cheese plate every day? No, my body is telling me no.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, if you had to construct the perfect food for weight gain, I think it would be something like cheese.

Gin Stephens: Maybe so, and it's so easy to eat a lot.

Melanie Avalon: We talked about this before, but starting off with dairy, dairy is a hormonal food, which its intention is to grow a being. Cheese is that, but it's the high-fat form of that. So, it's not even just the hormonal signal of milk, it's all of those signals with highly, highly concentrated fat and calories.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, so that's just me being honest with myself and I could have said at either time, with the Shapa go into gray, I could say, “Uh-oh, intermittent fasting has stopped working,” or, “Oops, my metabolism must be slow.” But no, I was like, “Okay, what behavior has changed?” I'm like, “Oh, there's the cheese again.” Also, I ate out a ton at the beach. We ate out things, lobster rolls, delicious, lots of things I don't normally eat at the house. Now, my Shapa is back. Got the good color again. It just helps me to see it. Actually, I wasn't sad, Melanie, about the gray. Seeing a weight number fluctuate, upset me. Seeing the color big gray did not upset me. I wondered if it would. If I ever see gray, I thought to myself, “I hope I never see gray, but if I do, will I be upset?” And I wasn't, and I was not tempted to over restrict either. If my weight had fluctuated up and I'm like, “Oh, I got to get that number down.” I was like, “Well, my trend is up, it'll go back down.” I felt confident, it was really, really refreshing.

Melanie Avalon: I still need to get mine calibrated. I was so close and then that threw me for a loop. I forgot to weigh last night, so I hope it didn't start me over.

Gin Stephens: Oh gosh. [laughs] My Shapa age is back down though. This is what I have found. I have discovered that if you look at your Shapa age, it actually does give you an indication of your weight fluctuations, because my Shapa age fluctuated all the way up to 32, and now it's fluctuated back down to 28. So, I don't have a goal weight, I have a goal Shapa age. My goal Shapa age is 28, I want to keep it there.

Melanie Avalon: Looking at mine right now. I'm going to get it there so I can start doing it too.

Gin Stephens: Well, Sara, thank you for your question. I hope our answers have helped point you towards what I think you already knew, because of the way you wrote your question. Please give us another follow-up. I know that we and the listeners would love to hear what changes you make and what happens and results from those changes.

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Gin Stephens: We have another question, and this one is from Robin. I love this one. Subject is, “Where does the fat go when we lose weight?” She says, “I know this is a very basic question, but I've heard lots of different answers on where exactly the fat/weight goes when we lose weight. So, where are the collective thousands of pounds of weight all of us intermittent fasters have lost? Also, I'd love to know if you and Gin have ever met in person? And if not, do you have plans to do so in the future? I think you're a great team and work really well together. Love your podcast. I binge listened up to Episode 30 so far, and look forward to hearing the rest. Thanks, Robin.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so this is a great question. Gin, do you know where it goes?

Gin Stephens: Well, I do. I do know where it goes. I've watched a great video about this. It's like a TED talk or something. To answer her question, no, we have still not met in person. Still no. We will. We don't need to. We know we will. I'm sure we will.

Melanie Avalon: I think we should once quarantine madness--

Gin Stephens: You can be great friends though and still not have met in person. That's what I've learned.

Melanie Avalon: This is true. This is very true. Once the quarantine madness is maybe done.

Gin Stephens: Exactly.

Melanie Avalon: Health risks or social implications or everything with all of that, be nice, nice celebration. So, as to where it goes. Fat is basically made of hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, all of these things. And it's stored as triglycerides, so a storage form of fat in our body. When we turn it into energy, which we do partly, assuming it's-- what is the word? Aerobic oxidation. So, using oxygen to turn into energy, we breathe in oxygen and we use that to generate energy ATP in the mitochondria of our cells from the fat. And then all of those excess carbons and hydrogen, they form two things. Air, or carbon dioxide. Some of the carbon dioxide we just breathe out, and then some of the rest forms-- the hydrogen and oxygen form water. We urinated out or sweat it out or--

Gin Stephens: Breathe it out.

Melanie Avalon: Well, we breathe out the carbon dioxide. The breathing out is about-- it's around 80% or so that we breathe out, and it's around 20% that we lose as water. So, you're actually breathing out your fat. And, oh, I meant to talk about the Lumen. So, this is perfect, I would have completely forgot. Sara was saying that she has a Lumen device. Lumen device, it's a breath analyzer, and it uses a science called indirect calorimetry because the ratio of carbon dioxide and oxygen in your breath can indicate the source of the fuel that you're burning because carbs versus fat produce a different ratio of carbon dioxide or oxygen as their byproducts.

So, the Lumen Device measures that its breath analyzer and it can tell you for burning carbs or fat and then it makes like dietary recommendations and things like that. If listeners are interested in that product, I've done two episodes on it in the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, I'll put a link to it. You can join my Facebook group, which is called Lumen Lovers. And you can go to melanieavalon.com/lumen, and the coupon code MelanieAvalon gets you a discount, I think it gives you $50 off. Yeah, it does. It gets you $50 off, which is awesome. So, in any case, yes, you're breathing it out, sweating it out, urinating it out, that's where it's going. The only other potential byproducts that can be had from things that we eat, because that's what happens with alcohol, that’s what happens with carbs, that’s what happens with fat, protein. It also has some byproducts of, I think, nitrogen, so we have to get rid of that through urination as well.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, so your body takes it apart at the little chemical level and just, bloop, does different things with the other pieces of it. Sends them on out.

Melanie Avalon: You get the ATP, and then out it goes.

Gin Stephens: Chemistry!

Melanie Avalon: But yes, we should plan to meet after all of this.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we definitely should. But I think I haven't been to Atlanta in ages. I don't know if I've been to Atlanta since you've been--

Melanie Avalon: I'm not a big traveler. So, if you want to come to Atlanta--

Gin Stephens: But you could come and stay in my guest room and use my new bathroom.

Melanie Avalon: Traveling is so stressful.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: Because we're really two and a half hours apart. It is not that far.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's really not that far. And it needs to happen before I go back to LA.

Gin Stephens: Well, you're not going back to LA, I forbid it.

Melanie Avalon: I am.

Gin Stephens: I forbid it.

Melanie Avalon: It is calling

Gin Stephens: Do you really think you are?

Melanie Avalon: I am. Yes. I'm really excited.

Gin Stephens: Do you really have plans? You've got them in motion? Or is it just a goal?

Melanie Avalon: No. I mean, because I've lived more of my life-- Have I lived more in my life there than anywhere else? I think so. I don't know. Now having left it twice, I know that's where I want to be. I want to go back and not leave again. I'm thinking maybe in the spring.

Gin Stephens: How long have you been back in Atlanta?

Melanie Avalon: This time around?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: A year and a half.

Gin Stephens: Because it feels like you just moved back, but I had a feeling it would probably be longer than--

Melanie Avalon: It does feel like I just moved back. It's really weird. Time is going by--

Gin Stephens: Time Is flying and going slow, all at the same time.

Melanie Avalon: Really random thought experiment question. I'm interviewing this guy named Sergey Young. He's an investor in longevity technology. His thing is artificial intelligence and avatars and space travel, but he's also all about diet and lifestyle. I think it's going to be a really great episode. What I want to ask him is, you know how time goes by faster and faster with every-- the older we get, it seems to, if we were immortal, would there reach a point where our perception of time would be so fast? Do you get what I'm saying?

Gin Stephens: That's very hypothetical to me. So, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: If time is relative, would there come a point where you're not even experiencing time? These are the things I think about.

Gin Stephens: Well, if you talk to some people, they say actually time is just an illusion anyway. And so, we're all experiencing all the time-- I don't know. Quantum physics, any of that, that's way beyond me. They're measuring particles and just the act of measuring the particles change them, they stopped acting like waves, and they started acting like particles. This was light, when they were measuring light, and they changed-- anyway. I'm like, I don't need to know, any of that.

Melanie Avalon: One more thought that's actually relevant to this and to our show. I'm reading right now Dr. Fung’s new book.

Gin Stephens: The Cancer Code, how is it?

Melanie Avalon: It's really good. I'm really appreciative because I haven't really learned much about cancer, it's not something I've--

Gin Stephens: You haven't been called to study it.

Melanie Avalon: Right. So, I'm really grateful to be reading it and actually getting schooled on it. I'm learning so much, but that's one of the things he talked about was the difference and paradigm shifts in medicine, compared to quantum physics and how-- in physics, when you realize that that the paradigm that we have to explain reality is incorrect. It just gets completely replaced all at once, and you switch over. Like what you just talked about with particle, why don't if it gets completely--

Gin Stephens: The light waves, they can be waves, they can be particles. Yeah,

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. In physics is like, “Oh, our current explanation does not work.” Even if you don't know the correct interpretation, the hypothesis of the correct interpretation is accepted as more true than the current explanation that's not working. Sorry, this does come back to diet and fitness. Compared to diet and fitness and medicine where, if the paradigm that we have to explain, disease or health conditions, doesn't quite explain it, we instead of rejecting that and positing a new theory that makes more sense, it's more likely that we try to fit the current paradigm to fit that paradigm. It's why it's so hard for there to be change in what's accepted as-- like in food, high fat, low fat, fasting.

Gin Stephens: You're stuck to that theory, you don't want to let it go.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's easier to manipulate it and explain away all the contradictions than be like, “Oh, maybe this is incorrect.”

Gin Stephens: Well, I will go back to the example I gave just flippantly, but when the people were like, “Oh, guess what? The earth is not flat. Or, “Oh, guess what? The sun does not go around the Earth.” They didn't take that pretty easily. Science wasn’t like, “Oh, you're right,” remember? Even hard science hasn't always been responsive to new information.

Melanie Avalon: That is true. I guess the slight difference is, saying the world is flat, the world looks flat.

Gin Stephens: Really, it wasn't even so much the world is flat.

Melanie Avalon: That was the big church.

Gin Stephens: It was the church, it was the going around part, the sun being in the middle of the solar system was such a revolutionary idea. That was really the big one. And people were like, “No, that is against the religion.” Yeah, that was a big shift. They did not want that to be true.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, this is true. It's a really, really incredible book, though. I'm really enjoying it.

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I'm glad.

Melanie Avalon: Literally, there was a moment where-- and I can't do it justice, you have to read the book, but there's this epiphany. He goes through the characteristics of cancer cells in great detail. And then, he goes through the difference between the single cellular organisms and multicellular organisms. There's this huge epiphany moment where all of the characteristics of cancer literally match up to the characteristics of singular cellular organisms. I haven't finished the book, but basically, I think his theory is that cancer is, it's not just random genetic mutations like--

Gin Stephens: It's like an attack of replicating single-cell organisms?

Melanie Avalon: It's evolving, basically. It's four characteristics, I think, are-- Yeah, I'd have to look it up. It has mutations, it's immortal, and there's two more, but they're basically exactly what a singular cellular organism is.

Gin Stephens: Well, now I'm really interested in reading it. I had not thought about reading it, but maybe I need to.

Melanie Avalon: Literally the moment that happened, it was like, “Da, da, da!” Yeah, I can't wait to interview him about it. It was perfect timing because I didn't know exactly-- I was going to interview him about fasting, and I was like, “There's so much. What are we going to talk about?” How was I going to focus the interview? but this is great, because this book just came out.

Gin Stephens: Love it. Well, I'm so curious what made him be interested in cancer? Because he's a nephrologist. He's a kidney doctor, and of course, now he works with a lot of people who are type 2 diabetics. Of course, he always did, being a kidney doctor, but his intensive dietary management clinic, and of course, now he's known for the fasting. So, I wonder how he made the transition to writing about cancer. Ask him that, or did he say it in the book?

Melanie Avalon: He did not. No.

Gin Stephens: Why cancer?

Melanie Avalon: I didn't realize he was a kidney, that was his special--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, he's a nephrologist.

Melanie Avalon: I have so many questions about the kidneys. This is--

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: --going to turn to a kidney episode instead. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: “I know you want to talk about cancer, but let's talk about the kidneys.”

Melanie Avalon: “Can we talk about the kidneys?”

Gin Stephens: I got no questions about the kidneys. I don't.

Melanie Avalon: I do. Sorry, for all the tangents.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm interested to read it. So, you're not all the way through, so you can't give the spoiler alert.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, so I just looked it up. The four characteristics of cancer are that it grows, that it's immortal, that it moves around, and that it uses glycolysis to form its energy. And that's the four characteristics of single cellular organisms. I got so excited because, Gin, sometimes you're reading a book and you're like, “Oh, my goodness, it's this,” and then they say that, and you're like, “[gasps]” so I was like, “Oh, it sounds like cancer--” My thought was that it sounds like cancer is devolving. That it's reverting back from a multicellular organism to a single cellular organism and then that's what he said. And I was like, “Oh, my goodness, this is so exciting.”

Gin Stephens: I love that, that you get the tingles.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Yeah, I'm excited to finish the book, like I said, about halfway through, I'll put links to it in the show notes. It's called The Cancer Code. I hope he does The Kidney Code.

Gin Stephens: I don't know, that doesn't sound like a big seller.

Melanie Avalon: I would buy it.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: No, you would. The Kidney Code sold one copy in Atlanta. [laughs] No, I'm sure whatever Fung writes, people will buy. Yeah, I'm not running out to buy The Kidney Code.

Melanie Avalon: People would buy The Liver Code, I bet.

Gin Stephens: Probably.

Melanie Avalon: I would buy The Kidney Code.

Gin Stephens: And you would buy The Liver Code.

Melanie Avalon: I would. I’ll buy all of this stuff. I love reading it. In any case, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode191. The show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. I also have links to everything we discuss. Brief reminder for Episode 200, submit Ask Us Anything questions and put in the headline, what is it? AMA, ask me anything? Put something in the headline, like Episode 200 or Ask Me Anything or something so we know that's what it's for. You can submit your own questions by directly emailing questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. Gin, oh my goodness. Guess what? Have you done stories on Instagram?

Gin Stephens: No, I don't know. What they are? Or how to do them?

Melanie Avalon: Me, neither. They are so complicated. I don't know how to do them, but my sister and I actually had a night out, and she taught me how to do stories. They're so complicated, but I'm learning.

Gin Stephens: You'll have to teach me.

Melanie Avalon: They're confusing, but they're so--

Gin Stephens: They're fun?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I sound such a technologically behind the times person right now. So, you know how you have your pictures?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: And you know how when you're in the app, random things pop up, and is like, “This person doing this,” and flashes, and you have to exit it?

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: Those are stories. So, they only last for 24 hours, but you can do lots of stuff to them. And then you can see everybody who even looked at them, which is cool.

Gin Stephens: That's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: People can comment and they're really fun. I did one.

Gin Stephens: You did a story.

Melanie Avalon: I did a story. I said, “It was my first story,” that's what this was.

Gin Stephens: Okay. I don't--

Melanie Avalon: Follow us on Instagram.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I'm trying to post a little more on there, but I'm still not very interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's just a lot, but follow us, because we're trying.

Gin Stephens: We're trying.

Melanie Avalon: I'm @MelanieAvalon, Gin is @GinStephens, and I think that's everything.

Gin Stephens: Yep.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice, we're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Dec 06

Episode 190: Heart Health, Plant Based Diets, Bad Cholesterol Vs High Cholesterol, High Carb Low Fat (HCLF), Extreme Weight Loss Resistance, Alkaline Water, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 190 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! Go to ButcherBox.com/IFPODCAST for free bacon for life!

AUDIBLE: This is Melanie's well-known secret for reading #allthebooks #allthetime! Audible provides the largest selection of audiobooks on the planet, in every genre! With Audible, you can listen on any device, anytime, anywhere! Every month, members get 1 credit to pick any title, unlimited Audible Originals, access to daily news digests (The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and The Washington Post), guided meditation programs, Audible Sleep, and more! Audible provides rollover credits, easy exchanges, discounts on titles beyond credits, and audiobooks you'll keep forever! For those with children, check out the free Stories.Audible.com! Go To audible.com/ifpodcast Or Text IFPODCAST To 500500 For A 30 Day Free Trial, Including A Free Audiobook!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: Go To Butcherbox.Com/IFPODCAST For Free Bacon For Life!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #51 - Joe Cohen (Self-Hacked)

Restore (Smart Light + Sleep Sounds) Clock

My Shapa Scale and use the promo code IFStories to save $20

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #70 - Kara Collier (Nutrisense)

AUDIBLE: Go To Audible.com/IFPODCAST Or Text IFPODCAST To 500500 For A 30 Day Free Trial, Including A Free Audiobook! 

Listener Q&A: Kathy - Lowering high cholesterol with IF

Time-restricted feeding is a preventative and therapeutic intervention against diverse nutritional challenges

Intermittent Fasting in Cardiovascular Disorders—An Overview

Effects of 8-hour time restricted feeding on body weight and metabolic disease risk factors in obese adults: A pilot study

Intermittent Fasting: Is the Wait Worth the Weight?

Listener Q&A: Bernadette - No weight loss

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #44- Cyrus Khambatta, PHD and Robby Barbaro, MPH

Listener Q&A: Jalyn - What is the deal with purified alkaline water?


TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 190 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you. 

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free heritage breed, sugar-free, nitrate-free bacon for life. Yes, free, for life. We are huge fans around here of ButcherBox. They make it easy to get high quality humanely raised meat that you can trust, shipped straight to your door I hardcore research their practices you guys know I do my research. And what they're doing is incredible. Their beef is 100% grass-fed and grass-finished, their chicken is free-range and organic, their pork is heritage breed, and super importantly, they are all about caring for the lives of both their animals and the livelihoods of their farmers. Treating our planet with respect and enjoying better meals together. By cutting out the middleman at the grocery store and working directly with farmers to ship directly to the consumer. They're making it actually affordable to get this amazing high-quality meat which is help supporting the future of our planet.

They have boxes that can fit every single need. So if you want more steak or more seafood or more chicken, it's all there. And those meals come frozen for freshness packed in an eco-friendly 100% recyclable box. Their cattle are all 100% grass-fed, roaming on pasture with room to graze, their chickens are raised humanely, no cages crates or crowding and using controlled atmosphere stunning practices to minimize stress in the animals. They uphold the strictest of standards and the seafood industry, which as I found out really crazy things go down in the seafood industry. It's kind of shocking. If you want to learn more about that check out my blog post about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. And for all you bacon lovers out there, ButcherBox provides the type of bacon you want. Their bacon is heritage breed, free of sugar and free of nitrates. How are is that to find. And they have an incredible offer for our audience. You can get that bacon free for life.

When you sign up as a new member at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, you will get a package of free bacon in every box for the life of your subscription. Yes, that's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, and I'll put all this information in the show notes.

Are you looking for the perfect gifts this holiday season for yourself and others? Well, the average male uses six skincare products per day, the average female uses 12. And as it turns out, conventional skincare and makeup is full of toxins. We're talking things like endocrine disrupters, obesogens. Meaning, they literally cause your body to store and gain weight, and even carcinogens linked to cancer. So while you may be fasting clean, you may be putting compounds directly into your body during the fast, they can be affecting both your health and weight loss. Thankfully, there's an easy solution.

There's a company called Beautycounter and they make an array of skincare makeup products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about all of the ingredients that you put on. Their products are even tested multiple times for heavy metals. And for the holiday season, Beautycounter has so many amazing gift sets. These are bundled products at a discount, and they make incredible gifts. Think about it. You can get the products for yourself or for your friends and family and help clean up their skincare, all in disguise of gift-giving. Works pretty well. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you're trying to figure out exactly which products to get, check out my beauty counter quiz, that's at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. And for the latest discounts and giveaways from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is episode number one 190 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I'm so glad to be here today.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, throwing up my routine intro. Why are you so glad to be here today?

Gin Stephens: I don't know, just in general. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, is there something? I don't--

Gin Stephens: No, I'm just feeling very cheerful.

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Gin Stephens: I started decorating for Christmas.

Melanie Avalon: Aww.

Gin Stephens: I know it's really early. We're recording on November 12. It makes me cheery. Just the whole-- I'm going to show you-- look at my little tree that's sitting beside me, isn’t that cute? Can you see it?

Melanie Avalon: It’s doing the weird thing where it just shows me pictures but-- Oh, I see it.

Gin Stephens: Do you see it?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. What is it?

Gin Stephens: It's a little Christmas tree.

Melanie Avalon: Plastic?

Gin Stephens: No, it's ceramic, and I got it. Today, it's this little ceramic tree, if people have seen the green ceramic trees that are big, that have the little multicolored plastic things that you stick in there, but they're usually big. This is a small version, but it's ceramic. And it's battery-powered. It's like a little-- it's my podcasting tree and I'm so excited.

Melanie Avalon: That's fabulous.

Gin Stephens: You just have to be cheerful when you're decorating for Christmas. At least I do.

Melanie Avalon: I love it.

Gin Stephens: I'm doing a little bit at the time every day. Yesterday, I put up the garland around the great room and today I put up two trees, but I didn't decorate them. I just put them up.

Melanie Avalon: Obviously not real trees.

Gin Stephens: Well, no. We're artificial tree over here because if you're going to have a tree up for two months, it can't be real. I use Costco trees. They're fabulous. You can change them from white light to color light. You just click the button and now they're colored or you click the button and now they're white. So depending on the mood you're in. They're really easy to put together.

Melanie Avalon: I'm getting sad. The thing at my house and I might have talked about this before, but we were like known for our Christmas tree. It was so large. It was so tall because we had really really, really tall ceilings and it went almost to the top.

Gin Stephens: I've got really really tall ceilings and I thought about getting a giant one last year for the first Christmas in the house, but I decided I wouldn't be able to manage it myself. I don't want to have to climb up on a giant ladder to decorate it or pay someone to do it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my mom would pay a decorator to decorate it.

Gin Stephens: I like to do it myself. I will say funny story, when we first moved in, and we had-- there's this local moving company that's run by firefighters and they move from furniture stores or if you need something really big, they'll leave it for you. And I called them, we had ordered-- we had bought some furniture that we needed to have delivered and so we had them deliver it and they're like, “Oh, we've been here before. We delivered the biggest Christmas tree I've ever seen,” the guys, to the old owners. Yes. The biggest Christmas tree he'd ever seen came in our great room because it's a big great room but--

Melanie Avalon: Ah, I love Christmas.

Gin Stephens: I do too.

Melanie Avalon: Something we have in common.

Gin Stephens: We do. We both love Christmas. You just had a great birthday.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Except--

Gin Stephens: Now, look, I'm more excited.

Melanie Avalon: I was like dying from the fumes, so I pretty much canceled all plans. Oh, did I tell you that?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, because they fixed my ceilings and then they painted.

Gin Stephens: And it was very painty?

Melanie Avalon: It was awful. I think they use oil-based paints, and literally I just died. I almost got a hotel. So, I was like, “I'm going to postpone,” so we postponed. I'm going to do dinner with the family in a week maybe. But I got flowers from Gin.

Gin Stephens: Yay!

Melanie Avalon: It was a lovely surprise. Thank you.

Gin Stephens: I'm glad you enjoyed the flowers, but I'm sorry, it was all paint fumed.

Melanie Avalon: It's all good. I'm going to make up for it. I’ve got so many wonderful-- you definitely feel loved in the Facebook groups on your birthday. I was like, “Oh my goodness, so many birthday wishes.”

Gin Stephens: It's so special. In mine, I don't even know if I saw them all or kept up with them all. So, if anybody if I didn't like or love yours, thank you anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you, everybody, it was wonderful.

Gin Stephens: Well, I have two other things to talk about that are very exciting.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, perfect. I do too.

Gin Stephens: Yay. First of all, I went to the beach with my friends from college, and I drank zero alcohol.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And I told them all why and, and they're like, “Oh, that explains a lot,” about why I was always the person who felt so terrible, and even when I tried to pace myself, so it was great. I drove us around. I was the designated driver. I didn't even feel I was missing it. And here's something funny, I was actually able to stay awake longer, I think. I didn't crash and burn.

Melanie Avalon: Well, that makes sense, because I feel you get really tired with alcohol.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I was just as fun and just as funny and probably more. So, I didn't miss it at all.

Melanie Avalon: I only told you, I didn't talk on the podcast about my genetic resulting, right?

Gin Stephens: No, you did not.

Melanie Avalon: Listeners-- I want you to do it, Gin. I want to know what your says. So, I'm a huge fan of SelfDecode. It's a genetic analyzer. And they have really, really detailed reports. I was laughing out loud because I ran the-- they just released a food sensitivity one, at the top, it gives a summary and it shows how you react to carbs, lectins, food additives, histamine, like all these different things in food and then alcohol. Mine was all red, will react to this, except alcohol was green. It was alcohol tolerant.

Gin Stephens: I know I'm the opposite.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I was like, “I bet it will be.” But if you do it, it'll be all green and then alcohol will be red.

Gin Stephens: You're probably right.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, listeners, I'll put a link in the show notes to it, though, because I have a 10% off coupon. It's melanieavalon.com/selfdecode.

Gin Stephens: Well, I had mocktails the whole time and it was great. I felt so good. It was wonderful. I have one other thing that's so exciting. You know me talking about wanting a clock that you could turn off?

Melanie Avalon: At night?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I found one.

Melanie Avalon: What does it do?

Gin Stephens: It's the Hatch Restore. I wish they were sponsoring our podcast because that's how much I love them, but it's one of those that has the sunrise feature that it turn on a sunrise and wake you gently and gradually, but it has the feature where you can on their app, set it to only display the time during the time you want it. So, I have mine every night at 10:00 PM. It stops displaying the time and it starts displaying the time again at 5:15.

Melanie Avalon: That's really cool. What's it called again?

Gin Stephens: It's so cool, the Hatch Restore.

Melanie Avalon: The Hatch Restore.

Gin Stephens: So, you can pick like a sunrise and it wakes you up with the sunrise that whatever you pick. I don't need a sunrise because I'm always awake, but it's really helping me in the night because when I wake up, I don't have any light on because the clocks are very bright. But, also, I don't have to check the time because I know it's too early. If the clock is not showing, I don't have to wonder because what would happen before is, I would wake up, and now I'd feel it might be morning. Maybe it's morning, I'm wide awake. I would have to pick up my phone and look at it. Well, that's bright light shining into your eyes, and it would be like 2:00 AM. Now I've looked at bright light at 2:00 AM. I didn't want to clock on all the time. Now if there's no clock showing, I know it's still the middle of the night.

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Kirk Parsley, the sleep expert, his one tip that he says or he has a lot of tips. One of his main tips is, when you wake up, do not look at the clock. He says that you might wonder, “Oh, but maybe it's time to get up.” Well, if alarm clock hasn't gone off yet, then it's not time to get up. So, doesn't really matter.

Gin Stephens: See, I didn't have an alarm. For me, I don't need an alarm to wake up in the morning. But I couldn't tell if it was time to get up or if it was 2:00 in the morning. But now, I can't see a clock, I literally can't. It's off. It is a game-changer. I'm so much happier. I've only had it for less than a week. I love it so much. So much.

Melanie Avalon: Well, we'll have to put a link to that in the show notes.

Gin Stephens: Yes. I mean, I knew that there had to be something like that. It was just a matter of finding it.

Melanie Avalon: Was it on Amazon?

Gin Stephens: I don't know if it's on Amazon. I bought it through their website. I first bought like a cheap knockoff on Amazon and it was terrible. It wouldn't link to my WiFi. So, I would not go buy a cheap knockoff on Amazon. I'd go buy the real one.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. I actually have a question for you, something I bought on your recommendation. I bought Shapa scale.

Gin Stephens: Love it.

Melanie Avalon: I am struggling majorly to get it to work. I have to stand on it. It literally takes three times every time for it to work.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's weird. I've never had that or heard of that. You’ve got to stand on the metal things. I don’t know, that's weird.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so that's not normal. I was wondering if maybe--

Gin Stephens: Maybe change the battery. I've never heard anybody else say that. I get on and it works.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, this is the scale that shows you a color, not a number.

Gin Stephens: Love it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, question about it, though, because it says you have to go 10 days in a row to calibrate it. Do you have to measure morning and evening both days for 10 days?

Gin Stephens: For calibration, it wants you to do that. I don't know what will happen if you don't because I did.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, because I was measuring every night because I don't like doing it in the morning. I just don't. It was doing a foot every single day, but then with the mold and the paint and moving, I stopped doing it. Now I have to start over.

Gin Stephens: I just followed the directions and I got on it every day. I think it is important to follow the directions for the calibration period and weigh twice a day.

Melanie Avalon: I'll let you know if it works doing it just at night and we'll see. I'm going to go rogue.

Gin Stephens: All right.

Melanie Avalon: After you calibrate, do you measure morning and night or just--?

Gin Stephens: Just morning. You just have to calibrate it morning and night. And then once a day.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, we'll see. So, I have two quick little things related to all the things we've been talking about, fasting, insulin, and blood sugar.

Gin Stephens: All right.

Melanie Avalon: I told you this, but I got my insulin tested, which is so exciting.

Gin Stephens: It really is exciting.

Melanie Avalon: Because we often talk about how at the doctor, they often measure blood sugar, but not insulin levels. I was really excited because tomorrow I'm interviewing Dr. Bikman. Benjamin Bikman, who wrote why we get sick and it's all about insulin, and he does talk about testing insulin. I was really nervous because I always say that I just feel I'm not very insulin sensitive. He says fasting insulin should be less than six, I guess. Most people are not that. Mine was four. So, I'm happy.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you should be. That's great.

Melanie Avalon: I do wonder, I do feel it's the intermittent fasting that keeps me there. I think if I were eating a normal diet or anything like that, it would not be that.

Gin Stephens: I think you're right. I wish I knew what mine was way before, but I don't have that data. It would be fascinating to know, but mine was right around that same level.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it was really exciting, though. I thought I was like, it's probably going to be 20.

Gin Stephens: Oh, no. Uh-huh. No, no. I wouldn't think that at all.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't know. But in any case, that was really exciting. For listeners, that is a lab test that you can ask for your doctor to draw. It's just not often drawn, but it is something that you can test. Then, second really quick announcement is, I've been wearing CGMs as you know, and I sent you this, Gin, but ever since I've been taking berberine, it's making my blood sugar epic. Epic. Which is really exciting. I've now have a code and discount for listeners. I'm so excited. I've been waiting to share this because I'm testing Nutrisense and Levels. Levels, they're on a waitlist right now. When I have my code, it will get you to the front of the waitlist for it. If you want to get one now, Nutrisense does have theirs now, and you can go to melanieavalon.com/nutrisensecgm, and the coupon code MelanieAvalon will get you 15% off. So, if you want to jump on this CGM train that Gin and I have experienced. I'm obsessed. I think I'm going to wear one for the rest of my life.

Gin Stephens: Do you?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: I realized I don't like things on my body. It was great. I love the data, but I was ready to get that sucker off.

Melanie Avalon: I've done two rounds now. And now I'm going to put on-- I have three sensors that I can put on. I have my arm air out a little bit.

Gin Stephens: It made me really feel compassion for people who require these types of things, like require them. My friend whose son is type 1 diabetic and he has to wear an insulin pump all the time. I have a lot of compassion now and sympathy because they have to do it to be alive. And goodness, that's a lot.

Melanie Avalon: Monitoring it, and, yeah. I mean, because for us, it's just enlightening and fun, but, yeah, that'd be a completely different situation. Like you said, I don't like having things stuck to me. I just got an Oura ring too, and even that I'm like, I have to-- I love wearing it. The idea of constantly wearing something to monitor you is an interesting concept.

Gin Stephens: I wore an Apple Watch. I was an early adopter and I had one for-- I don't know, a couple years and then I just quit wearing it. I was like, “This is driving me crazy.” I unadopted.

Melanie Avalon: You unadopted.

Gin Stephens: I'm an Apple lover. I love Apple. I'm like, “Yeah, I don't need to wear this.” I also, full disclosure, how am I going to put it? Middle-aged woman and so I could not see the screen very well. So, that was also part of it, but wearing it was one thing too.

Melanie Avalon: I'm on day two of Oura. I really like it so far. Although I realized I had my first night and I didn't feel I slept that well. I had an 85 which is in there, great level. It was like, “Oh, maybe I do sleep better than I think. Maybe I'm too hard on myself.”

Gin Stephens: My friend Sheri, co-host of Life Lessons with me, she has an Oura ring. She really likes it.

Melanie Avalon: She likes it?

Gin Stephens: Oh, she loves it.

Melanie Avalon: If anybody ever wants to propose to me, they have an Oura ring with diamonds in it.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's hilarious. I love that.

Melanie Avalon: So that better be the way that goes down.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, my sleep score last night was 92 on my bed because my bed gives me a sleep score.

Melanie Avalon: I actually just got in the mail of monitoring mattress thing that will start monitoring and cools. I haven't installed it yet.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I love my sleep number.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, all the things.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Exactly.

Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of the sponsors for today's show. And that's Audible. Audible is the leading provider of spoken-word entertainment and audiobooks. Ranging from bestsellers to celebrity memoirs, news, business, and self-development. Every month, members get one credit to pick any title two audible originals from a monthly selection, access to Daily News digests and guided meditation programs. Beyond Audible’s normal entertainment and audiobook options, I want to tell you about something special they're offering right now. And that's stories.audible.com.

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Ready to get started with our first question?

Melanie Avalon: I think so.

Gin Stephens: All right. This is from Kathy. And the subject is “Lowering High Cholesterol with IF.” She says, “Hi ladies. I absolutely love your podcast. I have been IFing since May and listening to you the whole time. I've already hit my goal weight. I gained 15 quarantine pounds.” I guess she gained the quarantine pounds and then have lost them. That's what I'm understanding there. All right. She says, I feel great and see this as a forever lifestyle. I do a 24, Monday through Thursday and a loose 18:6 Friday through Sunday. I am just now starting to feel the inflammation leaving my body. In the last four years, I have gotten adhesive capsulitis, frozen shoulder, in the rarity of both shoulders, one at a time. So, that was a big plus for me to start if to maintain my body's inflammation, even though I was already on the mend. But I am wondering how IF affects high cholesterol. My doctor has been watching my levels for the last five years.

Oh, by the way, I'm 52 years old and 5’5”, and 125 pounds. I am mostly vegetarian, eating fish or turkey bacon only a couple of times a month, if that. I don't like the texture and taste of animal protein. Never have. I don't eat yogurt or drink milk. I eat a hard-boiled egg about two times a week, and I love cheese. At my last doctor's appointment, she said she would put me on cholesterol meds if I could not get it lowered by diet and exercise. Which to me seemed odd since I don't eat a lot of the things that are high in cholesterol. I was exercising at least 30 to 60 minutes a day, three to four times a week. I do not want to be put on any medications. I don't know if IF helps with lowering cholesterol, but I'm very interested to see what you both know.

Any research and information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much for all your podcasting support and inspiration. Take care, Kathy.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Kathy. Thank you so much for your question. Gin, did I say on this podcast yet what my mom experienced recently? I think I did.

Gin Stephens: I can't remember.

Melanie Avalon: She has a genetic tendency towards high cholesterol levels. It's not APOE for, I'm not sure what it is, but she went in recently and her cholesterol was pretty bad, and her doctor wanted her on statins. Now she did not do IF, she's not yet on the IF train, but she did change her diet from her standard American to more of like a pescatarian diet. The doctor wanted her on statins, but he said he would give her a month to try this dietary change, and she did and her LDL went down 100 points, which is crazy. Now she's sold on the power of diet, and dietary changes to affect cholesterol. Before I go into the information, really, really brief overview.

Typically when you're checking cholesterol levels in the body, things that are looked at are HDL, which is typically considered the “good cholesterol,” LDL, which is usually considered the “bad cholesterol,” and then triglycerides, which are the actual blood fat. The reason I say typically is there is a lot of debate about, is LDL, actually that problematic? Is it more about the ratio to HDL? Is that actually protective of some things? Is the problem coming from the LDL and HDL? Or is that actually coming from other factors. In any case, as far as affecting, what is seen as good cholesterol levels, the connection with fasting is pretty interesting.

There is a lot of research, I don't want to just say, “Oh, there's tons of research,” saying, “IF is great for cholesterol,” because it's more complicated than that. There is a lot of research showing that. I'll put links to all of this in the show notes. This was in rats, but one called “Time-restricted Feeding is a preventative and therapeutic intervention against diverse nutritional changes.” It found that rats eating a high-fat diet or doing it normally or with time-restricted feeding, it was interesting, they actually had increased expression of enzymes that you think would raise cholesterol, but they actually experienced reduced cholesterol levels. This was in intermittent fasting rats.

In humans, there's also been a lot of studies showing that. For example, and one overview from 2019, called Intermittent Fasting and Cardiovascular Disorders. They found that the IF diet limits many risk factors for the development of cardiovascular disease, by affecting the biochemical transformations of lipids, it decreases body mass and has a positive influence on lipid profile parameters. It reduces the concentration of total cholesterol, triglycerides and LDL cholesterol. Again, that was more of a review. Some studies, however, have found no effect. One study was called “Effects of an eight-hour time-restricted feeding on body weight and metabolic disease risk factors in obese adults,” a pilot study. It compared time-restricted feeding to not time-restricted feeding, and it found that there wasn't really any significant difference between cholesterol levels between the two groups. On the flip side, some studies have actually found the opposite.

They found that cholesterol, particularly LDL goes up. I think this might be more of a case when it's a longer fast or something like alternate day fasting. For example, one called Intermittent Fasting: Is the Wait Worth the Weight? Compared ADF to calorie restriction to control and it found that in the ADF group, their LDL cholesterol levels actually went up. Then it started looking at longer fast. We're talking seven days, it found that cholesterol levels went up, including LDL. That's something that I've seen and heard and a lot of interviews that I've listened to, podcasts, books. In general, intermittent fasting seems to be pretty protective and supportive and great for cardiovascular health and addressing things like cholesterol levels and things like that.

Some of the problems come, and I think there can be a transient rise in cholesterol or LDL, and longer fast, so not what we're talking about with daily fasting, but more like a couple days. Also, like I said that that study looking at ADF found a similar result. I've heard a lot of experts talk about this, and I do think there's the potential that when you are in more of a fat-burning mode that you are up-regulating LDL and HDL carriers. That might not be necessarily a problem as much as just a signifier of being more fasted. I'm sorry, this is so long, but in general, the majority of the research that I've seen seems to show that IF has a-- if not a neutral, than a beneficial effect on cholesterol levels, that was really long. Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: In general, we know that there is a link to high cholesterol in any weight loss. Just because when you're releasing fat, your body releases those free fatty acids, and they're in the bloodstream. There's a study that I share a lot. It's called “The transient hypercholesterolemia of major weight loss.” It's from 1991. It shows that when you're losing fat, you're likely to have a temporary increase in cholesterol. That's why it's called the transient hypercholesterolemia of major weight loss. Burning fat weight loss should go up. I would look for that study and share that with your doctor and say, “Hey, I just lost some fat, so it makes sense that based on this, that I would have temporary increased high cholesterol. So, that would make sense for people who are new to intermittent fasting and releasing fat as well. We would expect that because it's been shown, but then over time, we do see a lot of people who have normalized cholesterol.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. The intense weight loss, like I said, the longer fasting, I think it will typically be transient.

Gin Stephens: If that's why it's high. See, I don't know if that's true for Kathy, because she said that her doctor’s been watching her levels for five years. So, it could be genetic a thing and nothing to do with her fasting or fat loss.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because genetically going back to the genetics, people who do have ApoE4 variant that I mentioned, when I talk about my mom, who I don't think she has that, but people who do have that, that is a variant where you probably don't want to be having high amounts of cholesterol or saturated fat. I mean, that could be something to test for you, Kathy. But if you don't have that, I definitely think IF with dietary practices can help you address it. I would play around with your dietary choices and see if you can lower it with diet and IF. I feel you should be able to. Of course, again, we just said that it could have been from the weight loss, because she doesn't say how high it was up.

Gin Stephens: Exactly, or that it did go. We don't know if it did go up. So, maybe it's just always been high and it's still high. She was hoping it would be down, but maybe it was high, and now it's higher. That's what we're not sure about that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because her doctor just said she put her on meds, she could not get it lowered by diet and exercise. I would say keep on with the IF. You could try-- I say this so hesitantly, well, that’s the other thing is, I would want to know what her ratios are. I'm assuming it's a problematic ratio and panel of cholesterol that she's presenting. What are your thoughts, Gin, on dietary cholesterol and cholesterol levels?

Gin Stephens: Well, it's controversial tiptoeing around it, because you can read by sides of it, and you can see well-respected people talk about it both ways. I'm not an expert in that regard. I don't want to say, “Don't worry about cholesterol, it's no big deal because I read this and it said, not to.” Or, “How about take the statin or don't take the statin.” It's controversial. So, I am not an expert in this area. I don't want to weigh in on it because no matter what I say, half the people are going to be like, “That's not true,” because it just depends on your train of thought with it. That's all I'm going to say about that. Isn't that what Forrest Gump always said? “That's all I'm going to say about that.” It is not my expertise and I'm not going to pretend that it is. And not that you pretend to that it was, we're not pretending that it's our expertise. Neither of us are. You know what I mean.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just fascinated by it because like you just said, there are very polarizing camps on it. My idea is like, if I had really high cholesterol levels, what I think I would do for me is, I don't think I would do a high-fat diet, and I would still eat fats that are like, nourishing. I know, there's the whole keto high fat world, but I don't think anybody necessarily has to be on a high high-fat diet to get all your nutrition. I probably would try a lower-fat diet without doing seed oils and without doing processed foods and things like that.

Gin Stephens: I probably would, too. That's probably what I would do.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe dietary cholesterol has no effect, but maybe it does. I don't know. So, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Again, that's one of those controversial things, you can read both sides of it. Of course, you and I’ve probably both read things that say, “Oh, it's not as bad as you think to have high cholesterol.” And that's also controversial.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of that in the carnivore space.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: People really, really high, high, high levels.

Gin Stephens: They reject the whole theory that high cholesterol is bad for you.

Melanie Avalon: Well, not that it's bad, but in the context of high HDL, and then in the context of no other inflammatory marker-- like no other markers. It's a really fascinating story. Shall we move on to the next question?

Gin Stephens: We have a question from Bernadette and the subject is No Weight Loss. “Hello, Melanie, and Gin. I've been listening to your podcast for a while now for the last year or so. I listened to you ladies when I get up every week getting ready for work, and on my way to work. I enjoy listening to your podcast. Thank you for all the information you provide to your listeners. I am also a member of Gin's Facebook group Delay, Don’t Deny. I posted on there a couple of times and don't really get an answer to my issues at hand. I take the advice as to what to do, but it still hasn't helped in any way when I do follow the advice. I did weighing myself every week and my weight stayed between 178 to 180 for two months or so. I never lost or gained any more than that. I'm truly at a loss as to why I haven't lost weight in the last four years.

I have done keto, low carb, plant-based, no dairy, and now trying carnivore as well. I am on week six of carnivore and the same results. There isn't any no weight loss or inches lost as well. The first year I did intermittent fasting I was also doing Orangetheory classes five days a week for a year and a half. That year I tried keto and low carb with no results. So, I quit Orangetheory because why am I paying for an expensive gym fee with no results while I'm also eating right. I've taken out all sugars, even artificial, and I don't eat fruits either because of the sugar content in fruits. I continued to work out at home and intermittent fast with keto low carb and still no results. Now I'm trying carnivore.” Then she has a frowny emoji, a sad emoji.

“I also join in on the 36 to 42-hour fasts on Gin's group. I start my fast Sunday evening and open my window on Tuesday every week, as I started the carnivores six weeks ago. Do you see my frustration? Still no results. I clean fast and open my window daily between 12:00 and 2:00. I was in two rear-enders last year back to back and have not been able to work out anymore as I am in constant pain from my neck to my lower back. I’ve been seeing my chiropractor and still recovery is slow. I have taken blood tests on my thyroid and they say it's good, all my bloodwork is good no problems as they say and got tested for T3 and T4. Finally, the doctor acknowledged that I am pre-diabetic and have insulin resistance. With all that I've been doing with the fasting, which I have tried different times of day and have done 16:8 or 24, and even done 23:1, still no results. Also, I have tried one meal a day, still nothing.

A little more background on myself. I'm 49, and according to my doctor, I'm in menopause, but not quite fully menopausal, as I had no period for two months. But then I got a period, so a bit confused. I do take supplements which are calcium, magnesium, omega-3s, cinnamon, turmeric, apple cider vinegar pills, cayenne pepper pills, D3, as the doctor says I'm low in that, probiotics and flaxseed oil. Those are my daily supplements. I stopped for a while though, and started back up again with taking them. Sorry for the long email. I've been frustrated with this for four years and don't know more of what to do. I feel like just giving up, but I still go on even though there is no results for this long. I still continue to do intermittent fasting. And, yes, I do fast clean as well. Any ideas as to why my body is just not reacting to anything I'm doing, would be greatly appreciated. I've been doing this for four years with no results,” another frowny emoji. Thank you, Bernadette, from Canada. I actually got a few ideas while I was reading it. So, let's see what you come up with first, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, thank you, Bernadette, for your question, and I know for listeners, Bernadette's case is very specific to her and she's done a lot of things specific to her. But I do think there are a lot of people that maybe experienced this where they just feel they're trying all these different things. And then when I say all the things, I mean all the things still within our accepted world of low carb or keto or all these different approaches, and then the exercise and the supplements and testing, and not knowing what is what, and not feeling like anything can work. I think it can be very exacerbating, so I feel for you, Bernadette, a lot. I'm also sorry about your accident that is back to back, two rear-enders that is not a fun thing to go through.

I'm not saying mindset is the answer, but I wanted to start with the mindset and encourage you to take a step back and rather than feeling frustrated or feeling like nothing's working and you need to-- I don't know how long you're giving each of these approaches because you said it's been four years and you've tried all these different things. We know that you've been doing carnivore at least six weeks, but I don't know how long for these different approaches each one lasted. So, it could be a thing of not giving anyone approach long enough to make the changes that you need to see, need to be making. I don't want you to focus on calories or anything like that. But I do wonder-- because she says she has tried different fasting windows. It may be for you that you will need a shorter fasting window compared to the longer fasting windows. It may be on the days when you have longer fasting windows depending on what combination of diet you were trying at that time, that that just wasn't a diet and a window that would work for you to get the weight loss results that you want to get the--

She's been diagnosed as prediabetic and having insulin resistance, so we know that's going on. Since we know that she is at that place right now, and things are not working, I would encourage you, Bernadette, to try a shorter eating window. We talked about length recently about that study that compared a 16:8 window to a control and didn't really find much difference. A lot of people do find success in 16:8, but for you, that might not work. I would suggest a shorter eating window. I know you're doing carnivore right now, although I don't know when she sent this email, but picking one of the approaches, and giving it as a substantial amount of time with the shorter eating window, and maybe just simplifying, because you're taking all these supplements, and then you're taking them and then you're not taking them and then you're taking them again, there's just a lot of potential decision fatigue, a lot of over-analyzing, lot of variables. So, I think if you can get as simple as you can, with your approach, sticking it out, giving it an actual like, “I will give it three months.” And if that doesn't work, then do three months of another dietary approach, perhaps, and just try to make it more simple.

Then, also integrate into that, perhaps whatever mindset type approach works for you personally, because I know struggling with the pain must be a lot to work with. I wanted to point out, for example, you said that you're going to the gym, but you stopped because why are you paying for an expensive gym fee with no results while you're eating right. To me, that says you were maybe expecting the gym to provide weight loss, that's what you're paying for, but the benefits of exercise go so much beyond just weight loss. It could be a reframe of mindset is what I'm trying to encourage here. If you didn't enjoy going to the gym, then that's maybe not the exercise that you should gravitate towards. But if you enjoyed going to it for the social aspect or just getting moving. There are a lot of benefits to that. Even if you're not seeing a change on the scale, you can still most likely see benefits from exercise. I will say, like I said, I'm reading and interviewing Dr. Bikman tomorrow and he talks a lot about the role of exercise and insulin resistance. I don't know what type of classes are Orangetheory, I'm guessing it's different types of classes. It does seem that for insulin resistance, in particular, strength training is probably more beneficial. That's because our muscles are a huge source, they take up glucose from our bloodstream.

The more muscle we have, the more it can take glucose up from our bloodstream and it doesn't even require insulin to do that. If you do strength training exercise, the muscles can lower your blood sugar taken glucose without requiring any insulin. I try to say all this with love and kindness. If you can not be so hard on yourself, find some things that bring you joy beyond the diet and all of that. Mindfulness, meditation, friends, hobbies, and maybe just pick a diet and a window for, I would do it in three month cycles before you evaluate if they're working or not working.

Gin Stephens: Yep. One thing that that really jumped out at me is that she continues to try keto and low carb and carnivore over and over. She mentioned plant-based for one second, for literally one second. It was popped in there. She did keto, low carb plant-based, no dairy, carnivore. Then she talked later about doing carnivore, later about doing low carb. I think she's done a whole lot of low carb keto, carnivore. I would really encourage you, Bernadette, to read Mastering Diabetes, because clearly the keto low carb approach does not seem to be working well for your body because you're still pre-diabetic. And if you've been doing intermittent fasting for four years, and restricting carbs for most of that time, and you're still insulin resistant and pre-diabetic, then the foods you're eating are not working well for your body.

Also, all those supplements, make sure you're not taking them during the fast. Sometimes people get confused by that and they take them all during the fast because people hear, “Oh, you know cinnamon is great for normalizing blood sugar, so I'm going to take it during the fast,” but avoid all those food like supplements during the fast. The omega-3s, the cinnamon, the turmeric, the apple cider vinegar pills, the cayenne pepper pills. Also, by the way, here's my two cents on all these pills supplements, like apple cider vinegar pill.

Melanie Avalon: I agree, just have the apple cider vinegar or have the pepper.

Gin Stephens: Make a salad dressing out of apple cider vinegar with some turmeric.

Melanie Avalon: Or add the cinnamon.

Gin Stephens: Yes, add it to your food. I'm not a fan of taking them as a supplement. So, use the food, ditch them as a supplement. I know it's frustrating, but two other factors that jumped out at me. One, the accident. If you're in constant pain, I think it's really hard to lose weight when you're in constant pain. Your body is focused on the stress of the pain. Also, perimenopause. Most people gain weight during the menopausal transition, most women do. If you are only maintaining, and you're going through the transition, that may be a victory. Maintaining, and not gaining. So, if you go all the way to the other side of menopause without gaining weight, that's a huge victory, because a lot of women gain substantial weight during this time. So, if you're in constant pain, going through menopause and not gaining weight, then intermittent fasting is successful. Is it getting you to the weight loss goal that you have set for yourself? No. I understand that by that metric, it is not successful. But I would really encourage you to-- I think you've shown that keto, low carb, and carnivore are not lowering your insulin levels and getting you out of that pre-diabetic range. So, I would try something different. The Mastering Diabetes approach is the 180 to what it sounds like you've tried. I would try that, see how that goes.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. That was one thing I highlighted was, for example, she says she doesn't eat fruits because of the sugar content. While I agree, if you're doing low carb, you don't want to be eating fruit without especially if you're doing a high-fat approach. The sugar and fruits is not the same thing as like table sugar. And the majority of, I think, it might be all. It might be that every study on the damaging effects of fructose, maybe there's an exception, but the majority of them are looking at high fructose corn syrup, which is like refined fructose. They're not looking at fruit. There's a lot of studies actually showing a beneficial effect on insulin resistance, and pre-diabetes and even diabetes with fruit, things like berries. Trust me, I google this a lot. So, if you do decide to go on like a higher carb, low-fat approach, whole foods based, like the Mastering Diabetes approach, which is basically what that is. Although Mastering Diabetes, they are completely plant-based, but you can still read that book and it's a new paradigm way of thinking as far as high carb, low fat, whole foods, and the potential benefits that you might experience in weight loss, insulin resistance, things like that. So, we'll put a link to it in the show notes. I keep thinking that we've interviewed them on this show, but we haven't, right?

Gin Stephens: Well, we haven't. No.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I guess we just talked about it is so much.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, just because we know everyone's different when it comes to what foods work for us and we've had the--

Melanie Avalon: We should bring them on. They love fasting.

Gin Stephens: Well, we should we've had the BiOptimizer guys on and they’re each 180 from one another and respect that different styles are better for different people. And so this is just one of those things. It seems like Bernadette really is caught in the paradigm of, I got to eat low carb keto, carnivore, to lower my insulin, to reverse my prediabetes. If that was the magic bullet with the fasting and eating low carb, she would have done it. It would have happened. And so it's time to say, “Well, that was not what my body wanted."

Melanie Avalon: Another thing about if you do high carb, low fat from a just whole foods, and if you did it with intermittent fasting, you would have to try so hard to not be in a calorie deficit, when it's all whole food space. So, that might even-- on top of potentially shifting things around with how your body is processing fuels, you might at the same time without even meaning to bring in a calorie deficit as well. So, you could possibly see major changes. We know that she's done plant-based in the past, so we know at least she's open to eating those types of foods. So maybe trying it with a more concentrated approach with that might be helpful.

Gin Stephens: I would really just see you know what the Mastering Diabetes guys say and then I would just really commit to that and see.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I did an interview with them on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, so we'll put a link to in the show notes. I think it's melanieavalon.com/masteringdiabetes.

Gin Stephens: Yep. All right. I hope that helped Bernadette, I know that you're frustrated, I can totally hear it.

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The next one is from Jalen, and the subject is, “What is the deal with purified alkaline water?” “Hi, Gin and Melanie. Thank you both so much for everything you do. I have been fasting 24 for about six months, I have lost most of the baby weight, still working on those last 10 pounds. I realize how important it is to fast clean and to get in plenty of water. I usually carry around a half-gallon water container. I have had several friends recently rave about purified alkaline water. I thought water was water, H2O. And it should always be neutral. I prefer distilled water and the occasional mineral water. Since you guys are amazing at digging through the studies, I was just wondering if there really is any benefit to drinking purified alkaline water, especially while fasting. Thanks for your help. Jalen in Pittsburgh.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, alkaline water. This is another thing where there's big camps on this topic. I will tell you my opinion and you can just take what resonates from it with you, and run with that. So really quickly, comparing like the potential alkalizing effect of water versus food on the body because food as well there's the whole alkaline diet thing. The science that I've seen behind alkalinizing food is that when we digest them, they leave-- it's called an ash, but basically it's the metabolic byproducts of the food and whether or not those are alkalinizing, or acidifying. I actually think that all makes a lot of sense. People will say that it won't be reflected in the bloodwork because the kidneys do what they have to do to keep your blood at a certain pH. And yes, that is true, but I do think that if you're eating certain foods that require your kidneys to work more to maintain that. I mean, I think that's saying something, that's the food side of things.

The reason I'm giving that context is that with water, there's not an ash that's being produced. You take in the water. Our stomach is a certain pH, so I have often heard the argument made that it's actually more taxing on your body to bring in alkaline water because in the stomach, it's going to be acidified. It's going to be changed anyway. I don't know that there's an effect beyond that. I know a lot of people and I actually personally experienced this. I was drinking a lot of alkaline water for a while, while fasting, but also right before eating, and it really messed with my digestion and then I switched to “normal water” and it was much better. I'm not really on the alkaline train.

I drink mineral water and glass bottles only, I think that's like the best of all worlds when it comes to water because you are getting minerals from the water and then if it's been in glass, it doesn't have the plastics and the toxins. Whole Foods actually has a store brand, like the 365 brand that you can get in glass bottles. That's mineral water. I love it. Distilled water, I would not suggest drinking distilled water unless you have a very specific reason for doing so because that can actually-- Well, there's arguments about this too, but it is thought that that can actually pull minerals from you. I think that that might be the case. So, I gave you my opinion.

Gin Stephens: I would not drink that at all. Definitely not.

Melanie Avalon: Those are my opinions. You're going to find any opinion you want, but I haven't seen anything science wise that supports.

Gin Stephens: It's actually funny when you think about it because we have these ideas in our head that if they do something to the water, it must be better. Jalen is drinking distilled water, and mineral water, which are the polar opposite. Distilled water is that everything removed and mineral water has stuff in it. They're the opposite, but we don't know. We're like, “Oh, this must be better because they're making it and they take the time to do it. It must be better.”

Melanie Avalon: Well, I guess as far as like watering water, mineral water would sort of be the closest to that, because that is just water from certain places where there are minerals.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it does have that. It's not just 100% H20. Mineral water is not 100% H20.

Melanie Avalon: But it doesn't have minerals added. It's just that water naturally.

Gin Stephens: I mean, the mineral naturally. Distilled water is probably closer to 100% H2O, right?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I see what you're saying. I was talking about doing something to the water.

Gin Stephens: Right. We have to do something to the water to make it just be water because naturally water is never just water.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so distilled water, I guess would be that. But we don't want to do that. Or I don't, because it's going to change how it interacts with our body.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's not natural. There is no distilled water in nature. We're not designed to drink distilled water, because that's not the way water was presented to human beings ever.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I'm excited. I'm bringing on Dr. Anthony Beck onto my show. He goes deep into a lot of these myths, and he's very opinionated. I plan to ask him all about this--

Gin Stephens: Oh, good.

Melanie Avalon: -when that episode comes out, I'll put a link. Well, I don't know when that episode is coming out. So, stay tuned. Follow the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. When I interview Dr. Anthony Beck, I plan to ask him this question. So, yeah. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can find all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram. I have been posting more, I see Gin has been posting more, applause to that. Gin and I are not so good at posting on Instagram, but we're trying.

Gin Stephens: I'm trying.

Melanie Avalon: We're trying, and so that is @MelanieAvalon, @GinStephens, and you can follow our Instagram IF Podcast, which is @IFpodcast, right? I said out of order, now I forgot. I think it's IF Podcast. Yeah. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it. Good talk.

Melanie Avalon: Good times. I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Talk to you then.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Gin Stephens: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Nov 29

Episode 189: Cholesterol, Chronically High Insulin, APOE4, Iodine, Supplements, Hypothyroidism, Hair Loss, Weak Nails, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 189 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #68 - Glenn Livingston, Ph.D.

Listener Q&A: Tricia - Curious

Why We Get Sick: The Hidden Epidemic at the Root of Most Chronic Disease―and How to Fight It (Benjamin Bikman)

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #61 - Dr. Cate Shanahan

Get 10% Off Antrantil With Code IFP

Get 10% Off Magbreakthrough With Code IFPODCAST

Get 10% Off Sleep Remedy With Code MELANIEAVALON

Natural Vitality Calm #1 Selling Magnesium Citrate Supplement

Listener Q&A: Elden - Food Choices

Listener Q&A: Callie - Cold Therapy

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #60 - Wim Hof

Listener Q&A: Kash - Falling Hair and Peeling Nails

Listener Q&A: Jackie - Subject

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #65 - Mira And Jayson Calton

Listener Q&A: Heather - Supplements

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 189 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of our sponsors Prep Dish. Prep Dish is changing the way thousands of families do mealtime. Here's how it works. Prep Dish thoughtfully crafts a week's worth of gluten-free and paleo meals that feature seasonal ingredients to make the most of your budget, save you time, and surprise your taste buds. You may be thinking, but we aren't gluten-free or paleo. Well, when I have used Prep Dish, my family didn't even notice that the meals were gluten-free because they are based on real food ingredients and the meals were delicious. There's also a keto plan if that's what you're looking for.

When you join Prep Dish, along with the weekly menu, you'll get a printable grocery list and instructions for prep day. Just two hours of preparation yields scrumptious, good for you dishes all week long. You shop once, prep once.

When you join, not only do you have access to this week's menu, but you can choose from past week menus. The dilemma of what's for dinner is solved forever. Go to prepdish.com/ifpodcast for your free trial. Yep, it's totally free. And once you see how easy it makes your life, you won't know what you did without it. That's prepdish.com/ifpodcast.

Melanie Avalon: And one more thing before we jump in. Are you looking for the perfect gifts this holiday season for yourself and others? Well, the average male uses 6 skincare products per day, the average female uses 12. And as it turns out, conventional skincare and makeup is full of toxins. We're talking things like endocrine disrupters, obesogens. Meaning, they literally cause your body to store and gain weight, and even carcinogens linked to cancer. So, while you may be fasting clean, you may be putting compounds directly into your body during the fast, they can be affecting both your health and weight loss. Thankfully, there's an easy solution.

There's a company called Beautycounter and they make an array of skincare makeup products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about all of the ingredients that you put on. Their products are even tested multiple times for heavy metals. And for the holiday season, Beautycounter has so many amazing gift sets. These are bundled products at a discount, and they make incredible gifts. Think about it. You can get the products for yourself or for your friends and family and help clean up their skincare, all in disguise of gift-giving. Works pretty well. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you're trying to figure out exactly which products to get, check out my Beautycounter quiz, that's at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. And for the latest discounts and giveaways from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is episode number one 189 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Awful.

Melanie Avalon: Awful, why?

Gin Stephens: Well, the time changed last night, and I told you that--

Melanie Avalon: [gasps] I know. It's fabulous.

Gin Stephens: I woke up, rolled over, looked at my clock, and I was like I feel ready to get up and it was 4:15, which is right about when I wake up, but it was an hour earlier, so I had to force myself to stay in bed till it said 5:00 AM, which would have been 6:00 AM normally, so I've been up since 5:00 AM, also known as 6:00 AM in my brain

Melanie Avalon: I thought it was fabulous.

Gin Stephens: No, I did not like it. And so, yeah, tonight, I'm going to be like, it'll be 7:00 PM and I'll be ready to go to bed.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, tonight it's going to get dark earlier. The goodness continues. I got really excited because I was talking to somebody in a time zone over for one hour, it was the same time.

Gin Stephens: I didn't think about the fact that everybody's time changes at a different time, but it does, because it changed at 2:00 AM. Okay, that's wacky. I never thought of that.

Melanie Avalon: Like this won't happen again for six months, or will it happen in six months?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, well, it's less than six months. They've changed it. They're not spread out six months apart.

Melanie Avalon: Are they?

Gin Stephens: No, I think it's-- okay, now I'm going to look it up. [laughs] It's not exactly six months apart. Let me look. All right, 2021, the time changes. March 14, and then November 7th.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so it's like four months apart?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. That's the part, that's crazy.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so confused. I don't understand.

Gin Stephens: I know, we do it for four months. That's the part that makes it hard. We change for four months and then we go back. Why? Why? Why?

Melanie Avalon: I feel this will be something that will be gone in 100 years, and they'll be like, “They used to do this really weird thing back in the day.”

Gin Stephens: I hope it's less than 100 years, I'd like it to be gone in 2021.

Melanie Avalon: I can advocate for that.

Gin Stephens: I would like to. It's not good for us. There have been lots and lots of research that shows that people have more health outcomes right after the time changes, car accidents, heart attacks, things like that.

Melanie Avalon: Doesn't happen, though on the next one, like not this one?

Gin Stephens: But I think both of them are bad.

Melanie Avalon: But we get more sleep with this one.

Gin Stephens: Not if you're me. If you're me, you feel so terrible because now you're totally out of sync with the world because you're waking up at 4:00 in the morning, trying to get back to sleep. And then you're forcing yourself to try to stay awake at night because it's not socially done to go to bed at 7:0 PM. So, it really messes with me because I'm out of my normal, what feels good.

Melanie Avalon: So, I vote if we get rid of it, that we keep it the way it is now. Not

Gin Stephens: me. No.

Melanie Avalon: See, that's going to be the big debate, like which one do we keep?

Gin Stephens: Well, one of them is real and one of them is fake.

Melanie Avalon: I hope this is the real one.

Gin Stephens: I can't remember which one is real. One of them is real and one of them's fake. I think the one we change to is the fake one. Right now, we just started the fake one.

Melanie Avalon: This is the fake one.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's called daylight saving. Well, maybe the-- I don't know. I don't know how to know which is which.

Melanie Avalon: It starts on the second Sunday of March and reverts to standard time in November.

Gin Stephens: We're back on standard time. We only get to have standard time for four months?

Melanie Avalon: This is the real time. I'm so excited.

Gin Stephens: I don't like that. That means the real-time I like to wake up at 4:15, 4:30 in the morning.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, this is the best day ever.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Oh, gosh.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I learned so much.

Gin Stephens: I want to stay on the other one.

Melanie Avalon: I want to stay on this one.

Gin Stephens: Okay, we'll see. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I did have a fun fact that I wanted to share with listeners that I thought would be helpful. I interviewed again doctor-- Well, he's a psychologist Glenn Livingston, who wrote Never Binge Again. And, oh my goodness, bringing him on the first time on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast was so popular. I'd have to double-check, it might have had the most downloads of all my episodes yet. Brought him on again for part two Q&A. We were talking about social pressure from people when you're following a certain diet or fasting or something like that. Especially with families, if your mom's like, “But I baked this for you.” He was saying that what it comes down to is the difference. Do you know what an aggregate is versus a-- there's another word.

Gin Stephens: Are they personalities?

Melanie Avalon: No, like a group of people. Listeners, I will put link to in the show notes, but I think it's an aggregate of people don't have the community ties. It's like a group of people in an elevator.

Gin Stephens: You're not connected.

Melanie Avalon: Connected. Yeah. When it's connected, so if it's a family or a friend group or something, we do these different acts to--

Gin Stephens: Can please them?

Melanie Avalon: To form the bonds with the community and when the community is broken apart for a little bit. So, if you haven't seen your family in a while, and then you get back together, they're these things that we do from an evolutionary basis and it's a means to reform that community bond. If you go to a family get together, you go see your family and your mom offers you her-- the cake that she made and  you're fasting, you saying that you don't want to have it can-- it's not so much about the food, it's her act trying to reform the community bond. He said the response to do, if you're fasting and it's something like that with a friend or a family member where they want you to eat something is offer them an alternative thing that they can do that re-welcomes you into the community or reforms the bond. If they're like, “Oh, I baked this thing for you.” You can be like, “Oh, well, I'm not really hungry right now, but I would love to have some of your tea,” or, “But I would love to have--” or it doesn't have to be food related. Something else that is reforming the community bond. Isn't that so interesting?

Gin Stephens: It is what it worked to say, I would like to save it for later.

Melanie Avalon: Probably. Actually, yeah, that probably work too.

Gin Stephens: The Delay, Don't Deny technique.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so the importance of either receiving that or providing an alternate that serve that same purpose.

Gin Stephens: That makes sense. Yeah, but never feel pressured to eat it just because someone else wants you to, just try to find a way to make it work for y'all. I love that idea. I was the queen of taking things home.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, because his main thing was you don't want to just be like, “Oh, I'm just not hungry,” and then not provide like-- you need to provide something that serves the place of what that act was trying to do.

Gin Stephens: Well, like we were at a birthday party for my niece over the summer, and there was cake. Chad and I were both there, and neither of us had eaten yet. They were like, “Would you like some cake?” And I'm like, “No, because I don't want to just open my window with cake.” I wouldn't feel good if I started eating cake on an empty stomach. I was like, “No, but I'll just take some home and we'll have it later after dinner.” We took a comb with us, and then I threw it in the trash because I don't like that kind of cake. Oop. That’s terrible. It was not a homemade cake. I'm not going to say homemade good cake. You know what I mean. It was not a cake. My sister bakes amazing cakes. It was not one of my sister's cakes. It was a grocery store cake.

I did just what you said, I wanted to form that community, and my niece was happy that I took it. Everyone felt happy, but I didn't have to eat it if I didn't want to, but nobody knew. Unless they're listening to the podcast, and now they know. There's nothing wrong with serving at a child's birthday party, serving the kind of cake that the child prefers. I'm not criticizing the cake, in case they are listening.

Melanie Avalon: Especially because they think this episode airs, probably like holiday season-ish. Maybe.  I wonder when this comes out.

Gin Stephens: I don't know. How many weeks ahead are we? I have no idea.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, this comes out November 30. Thanksgiving already happened.

Gin Stephens: Oh, so Thanksgiving will have been over. We're ahead. Ooh. We're way ahead.

Melanie Avalon: Look at us.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I like that. I just recorded a podcast right before this one that's coming out January 14. Yeah, I'm ahead on that one, too. It's weird because we were like talking about Halloween. And I'm like, “Yes, but now it's 2021.” In my future podcast world where I've recorded 2021 had already happened. Travel to the future. But, yeah, we're actually having Thanksgiving here at my house. This year, we're all going to make sure we're safe.

Melanie Avalon: That reminds me-- I think I'm going to get like ButcherBox’s turkey and just have it, like show up at my mom's house.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's nice.

Melanie Avalon: And then they'll be like, “Oh, I guess we have to use this.”

Gin Stephens: And you would eat that one, but not a standard.

Melanie Avalon: Most of the turkeys like they're pumped with all of this solution.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's 100% true. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think there are any turkeys at the grocery store that-- I mean, I haven't seen any that are not. And then on top of that, like raised on pasture or organic, hard to find.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think ButcherBox turkey’s a great idea. Of course, by the time this episode comes out, there'll be a different ButcherBox special offer.

Melanie Avalon: That's true.

Gin Stephens: I've learned about that. Now that I am working with ButcherBox for the Life Lessons Podcast, they're like, “Oh, it's always going to be a different offer.” I'm like, “Okay.”

Melanie Avalon: They switch it up a lot. They just had a really good offer. So, hopefully, listeners got on it. It was a free turkey.

Gin Stephens: I'm sure there'll be another great offer.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. It always is.

Gin Stephens: Good time. So, are we ready to get started?

Melanie Avalon: I think so.

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Trisha. The subject is “Curious,” and she says, “I have been doing IF since June for health reasons.” By the way, Trisha, I love that you're doing it for health reasons, that makes me smile. She says, “I don't need to lose any weight, but I am predisposed to diabetes. I'm curious about a few things. Gin, you said you do better with more carbs. Well, so do I. I'm just wondering what tests you did to find that out. My old doctor had me on paleo and I felt horrible. My LDLs went through the roof, and my A1c also went up. I never lost a pound and even gained some. I discovered that I am ApoE3-4. I carry the four-gene that is associated with Alzheimer's and high LDLs.

As my numbers crept up, I dropped my carbs down even lower, I was deathly afraid of getting diabetes. With that change, I felt even worse and my A1c went up even more. I was considered pre-diabetic. I stumbled upon a nutritionist who understood the APOE gene. She told me that I can't eat a high-fat diet and that I actually need more carbs. My life changed after that meeting. I started eating more Mediterranean and felt so much better. My LDLs dropped 50 points, and I'm now a normal A1c. It just proves how genes play such an important role.

I also heard a doctor talk about eating too low of carbs causing an increase of blood sugar, it blew my mind. I know I won't explain it right, but he said something to the effect that too low carbs below 25 will cause sugar to be pulled from the liver and muscles. I'm just wondering if you guys have heard this before?” Do we want to talk about that for a second before we keep reading?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. A lot of things going on here and I feel this is such a big topic, and there are so many opinions on this, and so many camps. I will just tell you my thoughts on the matter. Our cholesterol, and listeners, might be familiar with this, but there's two basic types of cholesterol. There's more than that, but there's LDL and HDL and usually people think of HDL as the “good cholesterol.” Usually, people think of LDL is the “bad cholesterol.” There's more debate within that world because a lot of people especially in the low carb world, the carnivore world, things like that, argue more in favor that LDL itself actually isn't bad that really the key is having a protective HDL and having low triglycerides. It's very confusing.

All of that said APOE, because it's ApoE4, it's a genetic tendency that does have a significant effect on people's LDL levels. And people with it are predisposed to having unhealthy LDL levels and particularly Alzheimer's. I do think people with that gene need to be very careful about their fat intake. I do think in that situation, of course, I'm not a doctor, but I am not that comfortable with a low carb diet if it's high saturated fat, because you can do low carb and not be crazy high and fat. I think a lot of people who do low carb go really high fat route and that's not something I would advocate if you have ApoE4. I'm really happy that she made the change and went higher carb, lower fat and saw a change in her blood work reflected. I think that's great.

Again, the reason I say it's complicated is because a lot of people in the low carb world, the carnivore world, APOE gene aside, often will have very high LDL, but they'll also have very high HDL and the ratio will be something that is seen as healthy. So, there's an ongoing debate about it. I'm actually right now-- I really want to find a really good authority on cholesterol levels in the blood. I want to find somebody who I don't get a sense as biased in either side, like with carbs and fat. If listeners have any recommendations, but I am probably going to do an episode on cholesterol in the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Do you have any thoughts about the cholesterol and the fat and all of that?

Gin Stephens: Well, I was going to talk about that, her statement that if you have too low of carbs, it will cause sugar to be pulled from the liver and muscles. She may be talking about just glycogen being released to keep your blood sugar up, that's actually not a bad thing. I just wanted to say that. Your body has a lot of mechanisms in place to keep you at a certain level of blood sugar, all the time coming out of wherever it is.

Melanie Avalon: The sugar being pulled, it's either going to be “pulled,” in which case it's what Gin just said, it's already stored glycogen already in its sugar form, or it can be created. It can be created from protein and glycerol from fat.

Gin Stephens: But she said the word “pulled” that's where I got it from.

Melanie Avalon: For some reason when I read it, I was thinking she was probably talking about it being created, but either case, she says the muscles too, but it's mostly the liver that's doing that. I'm actually right now reading-- Gin, have you read Dr. Benjamin Bikman’s, Why We Get Sick. It's all about insulin. Oh, my goodness. That's what it's about is insulin.

Gin Stephens: Then I don't think so.

Melanie Avalon: It's called Why We Get Sick, the hidden epidemic at the root of most chronic disease and how to fight it. The foreword is actually by Jason Fung.

Gin Stephens: Is the hidden root of it hyperinsulinemia?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: See, I knew that just from what I've researched as well. They're some kind of journal article that I read when I was researching for Fast. Feast. Repeat. It talked about all the things that were connected to hyperinsulinemia. It blew my mind because at that point, I had no idea. High insulin all the time is not a good thing.

Melanie Avalon: You would love this book then. It came out in July.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, no, I haven't read it.

Melanie Avalon: It's really funny. Two copies of it showed up at my door, like, I didn't order it, but the publisher sent me a copy. And then I'm testing the two CGMs. Levels, one of the companies, they sent me a copy, just randomly, and it happened within two days. I was like, “Oh, my goodness.”

Gin Stephens: You're meant to read that book.

Melanie Avalon: He's coming on the show. It's really, really good so far. I can't wait to bring him on. I have so many questions for him. My only caveat is he's making a very compelling case that insulin, like you just said, that hyperinsulinemia, chronically high insulin levels are-- I mean in the title, he calls it the root cause of most chronic disease, but he talks about how it pretty much every single condition we experience. I mean, he goes through all of them, how they're so closely correlated to insulin resistance.

Gin Stephens: That journal article I read was, it linked so many things to hyperinsulinemia that I was like, “Wow.”

Melanie Avalon: My only question I'm going to ask him is, I think he's trying to posit that it's causal, but I think if it was causal, it would have to be 100% correlation. It would have to be 100% present all the time. I don't know, that's just something I keep thinking about. But it is a very strong connection, like all these, like you just said in that article.

Gin Stephens: You're saying that they're associated, possibly not causal. Although, here's the thing to keep in mind, if it's causal, you would expect that bringing down insulin levels would then have improvement in those things. What's interesting is all the things that I remember reading about in that article, are things that people find improved through intermittent fasting, which lowers insulin, which makes the case for it to be causal because correcting it through intermittent fasting does make those other things better.

Melanie Avalon: It's a really, really, really fascinating book. Why am I talking about this? The reason I brought it up was for her question, the section I just read last night, I'm about halfway through it, but he was talking about something that I had also been talking about when I interviewed Dr. Cate Shanahan for her book, The Fatburn Fix, and that is the crazy, and now I'm realizing, no wonder It's so confusing, regulating blood sugar levels. They're crazy connection that can happen or relationship that can happen between blood sugar, and the liver, and the brain, and the pancreas.

Gin Stephens: There's a lot going on.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. What happens with a lot of people is if blood sugar is high, insulin tries to lower it, so insulin lowers it, so the liver tries to raise it, nobody wins.

Gin Stephens: It's trying to keep it within a range that's healthy. It's all working together, your regulatory and counter-regulatory, and they all have a different goal.

Melanie Avalon: They're not all talking, so the brain will see high blood sugar. So, it's like, “Oh, let's release insulin and lower it.” And then the liver is like, “Oh, raise the blood sugar. Let's release blood sugar.” It can be really hard to keep it stable. I think a lot people get stuck in that, it's almost like a war.

Gin Stephens: Especially in the modern era, when everything's out of whack. It's even harder.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. With insulin resistance, which is what this book is all about as well. Once the receptors aren't responding to insulin, that's when it's even worse because the pancreas is releasing insulin to bring down the blood sugar, but the cells are resistant, so they're not listening. So, then it has to release more.

Gin Stephens: It's a vicious cycle.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, did we answer her question?

Gin Stephens: No, I'm going to go back to where we stopped.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, her question, though about being too low carb.

Gin Stephens: I think that that was going to vary from person to person. Oh, she did ask how I found that out. Well, first of all, I knew it just from the way I felt. I never once lost weight on low carb, my entire life all the time, every time I tried it. Why did I keep trying it? Well, because people told it so well. Everything you read made it sound like, of course, it's going to work. I would try it, try it, try it, and then it wouldn't work, and I felt terrible, the whole time.

I feel better when I eat more of like a Mediterranean kind of a way of eating as well. Lots of beans, I do great with whole grains, lots and lots of veggies, less meat, but some meat, I don't feel great when I have no meat ever either. I think the DNA analysis is still, science is in its infancy. The point why I even talk about it is not because I want everyone to go out and do this XYZ analysis and then eat what they tell you to eat. The reason I like to talk about it is so that you can trust your body and understand we're all different. And so, stop looking for external validation and external plans and instead pay attention to how you feel. When you feel good, you know that your body is doing well. If your health is improving, you know that's working for you.

Trisha mentioned when she was trying to eat according to the way her old doctor had her eating, she gained weight, all of our markers got worse, her A1c went up, that wasn't good. When she switched back to her new nutritionist who understood her genetics, everything got better, her A1C is normal, she probably also feels better. So, anyway, there still isn't like a, “Here's the place we want you to go. Do this DNA analysis and this will tell you exactly what to eat.” No, we're not there yet. It's an interplay between your genes, your gut microbiome, so many other factors. Your insulin levels, they're also are not static, like Melanie and I just talked about. Somebody who has really high insulin levels right now, because of what they've been doing, you get those down over time and that's going to also change the way your body responds to things. So, there's just so many factors, we're not static, and there's no one test that's going to tell you everything. It's all the factors together, and things do change.

Melanie Avalon: That made me think of one other thing. We talked about this before, like they don't really test insulin that much. One thing, Dr. Bikman was saying in his book was that a lazy man's approach to--  well, because there's not really a way to test insulin resistance, but if you can test your fasting insulin and also test your free fatty acids, like the ratio of those can show if you're insulin resistant. And then also, it's scary, but also motivating just how fast insulin-resistant states can happen. Also, how fast changes can happen for the better when it's addressed, as far as like diet and lifestyle. I think it's really motivating.

I just wanted to give an answer to her question though, about too low carb, causing sugar to be pulled from the liver and muscles. So, yes, but in a way, that's supposed to happen, and for some people, it is completely fine, and it doesn't create issues. For some people, it does. Some people I think, go very low carb, they might release blood sugar with more glycolytic activity. Some high-intensity activity and everything's monitored and works well. Some people might go too low carb, and the body sees it as a stress response, it's not properly generating ketones, it's not running on free fatty acids and so it's just continually reverting to trying to produce sugar instead. I don't think that's a healthy state to exist in for a long time.

This is another thing where you just have to-- like Jim was saying about finding what works for you. It just requires a lot of experimentation and seeing how things are going. We were talking before this, we even talk in every other episode about it, so I won't talk too long, but that's why I'm loving wearing a CGM because I'm just learning so much about how my personal blood sugar is responding to different foods and fasting and stress and activities. So, yeah, there's a lot.

Hi, friends, I'm about to tell you about something that can have a truly profound effect on your life and it makes a great gift for yourself and others this holiday as well. Let's talk breathing. I recently read a book called Breath by James Nestor. I had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, so I'll put a link to that in the show notes. Basically, breath is energy, and it controls so much of our experience of the world. A lot of us experience stress and anxiety today, and breathing intensely affects that. Anxiety actually comes from a part of the brain called the amygdala, and it warns you of danger to keep you safe. The problem is, it really doesn't know which dangers are real. When activated, it releases adrenaline and cortisol via our sympathetic nerves that increase our breathing patterns to affect our heart rate, sweat glands, and muscle tension.

These short shallow breaths are designed intentionally to give your body more oxygen so that you can fight or flee. The problem is, our release of carbon dioxide drops, and you can actually feel confused or unstable because your body isn't physically using the oxygen. Then your heart beats fast to try to circulate the adrenaline and oxygen to the rest of your body. Your digestion slows down. Everything just basically gets a little bit intense.

We can actually fight back about the confusion of our amygdala through controlled breathing. By slow breathing, it's like our brain realizes that, “Hey, I have time to be doing this slow breathing. I must not be running from a tiger right now.” Through controlled slow breathing, you can actually instantly put your body into a more calm state and you don't even have to really think about it. The problem is that trying to regulate your breathing when you're experiencing the fight or flight mode, panic, anxiety, stress, things like that, can be a little bit difficult because of all the adrenaline, cortisol, and extra oxygen involved. Having a tool to physically ground you can be game-changing. That's why I'm obsessed with the Shift.

It's a beautiful necklace that was engineered using a tested diameter and length to give you a longer exhale. James Nestor’s book Breath, he goes through a lot of breathing exercises. They're really cool and really effective, but you have to do them, you have to do the counting, you have to think about it. With the Shift necklace, you just pull it up to your lips, and because of its design, breathing out through it, automatically forces you into a long exhale. Basically, it makes it super easy to do breathing practices to manage your stress and anxiety. I wear it around my neck and anytime I feel a little bit stressed, I just pull it up to my lips and do some breaths through it.

I actually just bought two more, one for my mom and one for my sister for the holidays. It's such a cool, effective therapeutic practical gift. I love it. And, guys, you can get it for 30% off. Yes, 30% off. This is huge. Just go to komusodesign.com and use the coupon code IFPODCAST, that's K-O-M-U-S-O D-E-S-I-G-N dotcom and use the coupon code IFPODCAST for 30% off and I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Gin Stephens: All right. So, the rest of what she said is, “So, all that being said, I do have a few IF questions. I'm 5’4 and weigh about 105 pounds. I have struggled with my weight for years. I'm finally stable, thanks to a great hormone doctor. I have a very bad gut with IBS-C. I've been gluten-free for over eight years. Since starting IF, my constipation has gotten much worse, seems like when I would eat a little bit in the morning, it would stimulate peristalsis, but now that I don't do that, I have trouble going to the bathroom. I don't really like breakfast. So, I don't want to switch my eating window. Like you guys, I love my evening meal.

One other quick question is that I still crave sweets. I can't seem to get past that. I'm just wondering if I need to open my window sooner or tighten it. I usually open around 3:00 or a little earlier. I quit eating around 7:30. Oh, I also have Hashimoto’s if that makes any difference. I've read WWW, DDD, and FFR. You guys are amazing. Thank you, Trisha in Texas.” And by the way, that is What When Wine, Delay, Don't Deny and Fast. Feast. Repeat.

Melanie Avalon: I love the letters. Okay, so constipation questions. I talk about this a lot, but it can be hard when you're on the constipation train to keep things flowing. So, a lot of things you can try is obviously adjusting your food choices and seeing what foods work for you. If you have bloating with it-- Oh, she has IBS-C. Yeah, I would definitely try Atrantil, it can be a game-changer. It's natural plant compounds that are specifically made for the type of bacteria that are often overgrowing with that condition, that produce methane and slow gut motility, so that's at lovemytummy.com/ifp with the coupon code IFP. As far as keeping things moving naturally, magnesium can be really great. I like Natural Calm, also BiOptimizer has a magnesium supplement. Those are my main recommendations for constipation.

Gin Stephens: Magnesium is just the key that works for me. I've been trying to shift around the times that I was taking it. I was taking something else at bedtime. I was taking Sleep Remedy at that time. Yeah. I didn't want to take Sleep Remedy and magnesium. I just felt it too much to be taken at one time. So, it's like, “Well, I'll just stop taking the magnesium,” or, “I'll take at different times.” I did notice getting a little more sluggish again. I'm back to taking the magnesium at bedtime and everything's back to how it should be. It just really makes a difference for my body. My body likes magnesium at bedtime.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my order with those two because I take Sleep Remedy as well which is a natural sleep supplement formulated to help your brain instigate the sleep state. So, it's not a pharmaceutical or anything. Since I eat so late, I take it when I'm opening my window actually. And then I have magnesium after, and I feel that keeps things going really well. For people who are interested in Sleep Remedy, you can get at melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy, the coupon MelanieAvalon, but the magnesium. Vitamin C can also do it as well. Some people do like high dose vitamin C. Then her second question, craving sweets. Do you have thoughts about that craving sweets?

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean, I think that it's natural to crave sweets. We're wired to crave sweets, people act like it's a flaw to crave sweets. There's nothing wrong with you if you crave sweets, and I don't think that that's true. So, if you crave sweets, stop beating yourself up over it. It's not a problem that you crave them, there's not something wrong with you. Instead, if you feel that you're choosing things that are not high quality, that would be the problem. If you're like eating a pack of cookies, that would be a problem. Instead, try to meet that sweet craving with real foods. For me dates. I've talked about this before, Medjool dates. They're a great way to close my window. They're sweet. I don't need a lot of them. I don't know binge on them. I just eat a couple of the dates, that meets my sweet craving. And then my window’s closed and I go about my evening. I'm not like, “Oh, darn it, I'm craving sweets.” I'm like, “Alright, I would like something sweet,” then I have it. We crave salty. I mean, we crave things.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think there's probably a difference too. I don't know if she's craving in her eating window or if she's getting sugar cravings while fasting, which I feel are two different experiences. But if it's during the eating window, I agree that whole food forms of that. She's not doing low carb, if she's doing you know Mediterranean and if she can get that sweet fix with fruit and things like that, I completely support that.

My mind is being blown a little bit. I just read Dr. Alan Christianson’s The Thyroid Reset Diet, it comes out in January because a lot of people supplement iodine for thyroid issues. He actually thinks iodine overload is the cause of most thyroid issues today, and he makes a very compelling case, like very compelling. Basically, the idea that iodine is helpful. It started when-- because if you overdose iodine, it shuts down the thyroid. Back in the day, they found that really high dose iodine supplementation would essentially fix things-- fixed like hyperthyroidism because it would shut down the thyroid. There was something about-- it would help something with cancer, and the guy who found this connection thought it was because the body needed iodine. But really, it was probably because that excess iodine was shutting down stuff because it was too much. Now we're not really iodine deficient ever since we started iodizing salt and all of that. It's just really, really interesting, like the studies on what excess iodine does and how people on low iodine diets often can reverse Hashimoto’s. So, I'm not saying like, “Do this,” but now I'm rethinking Hashimoto’s completely and iodine. Stay tuned for that.

Gin Stephens: That's going to confuse a lot of people. This is the whole problem with-- it's like, “Oop, deficient in iodine.” “Oop, sorry, it actually had too much.” Then you're just like, “Never mind, I'm just going to eat.”

Melanie Avalon: After reading his book, the amount of iodine we need, our thyroid needs is really, really small. Iodine is a really unique nutrient because it's basically just used by the thyroid, the rest of the body doesn't need it. And then, B, it's one of the only nutrients where we only needed a really small amount. And anything beyond that is actually toxic, compared to most nutrients where it had a much broader range.

Gin Stephens: Right. Like with magnesium as an example. If you take more magnesium than your body needs, you excrete it.

Melanie Avalon: Just flushes you out.

Gin Stephens: It flushes you out, which is why the last time I had bloodwork done, my magnesium levels are great. And so that is probably one reason why it keeps me regular.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so it's a really big paradigm shift.

Gin Stephens: And you know what, that just made me think of something. The people who take magnesium and say it doesn't do anything for them with constipation. I wonder if it's because they just start deficient. Their bodies uptaking all of it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they haven't reached the bowel tolerance point. That's quite possible.

Gin Stephens: I just thought of that. I'm like, “Well, they're-- ding, ding, ding. That's probably why.”

Melanie Avalon: Did I tell you about my iodine supplementation story?

Gin Stephens: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: Gin, I've experimented with a lot of--

Gin Stephens: What?

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: I'm shocked.

Melanie Avalon: Lot of things. All of that said, when I interviewed Joe Cohen, who makes the SelfDecode genetic testing that Gin and I both done before, he said he had the same experience. Iodine is the only supplement where I tried it and it created a reaction that scared me so bad, I'm never touching it ever again.

Gin Stephens: What did it do?

Melanie Avalon: I took it orally, and my eyes turned bloodshot red.

Gin Stephens: I think I've heard you say that before. I think you've told me this story.

Melanie Avalon: To the point that I was like, I don't know if I can go to work, and it lasted for like two days.

Gin Stephens: Oh, gosh.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, there is something going on here with iodine. I've been really skeptical or curious about it for a while. Reading his book was interesting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that does sound like it would be interesting. All right, we're ready for the next one.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Food choices. This comes from Elden. We get such interesting and beautiful names--

Gin Stephens: We do.

Melanie Avalon: -on this show. Elden. She says, “I am very new to IF and I've started listening to your show. I just finished Episode Five about coffee, and almost all of your shows you state while in the window, you can eat what you want. So, if you're in the window, can you drink a cup of coffee with milk? While in the window, are you trying to control your insulin levels? Or does it matter?” Oh, my goodness, I totally forgot to put this in here. Okay. She says, “I'm trying IF for weight loss and ultimately for lifestyle.”

Gin Stephens: All right, great question. Some people do get confused about insulin because they think we talk about-- in Fast. Feast. Repeat. I specifically give you three goals for fasting and the clean fast. And one of them is to keep insulin levels low during the fast because we're trying to tap into our fat source for fuel and keep our insulin levels low, will help us with that. So then people say, “Oh, insulin must be, ‘bad,’ but it's not.” What we don't want is chronic high levels of insulin 24/7, all the time, we don't want hyperinsulinemia, just like we were talking about with Dr. Bikman’s book, talking about high insulin not being a good thing. During your eating window, you're going to have an insulin response to food. If you prefer to have your coffee with milk in your eating window, then you absolutely can do that.

We're not seeing insulin as an enemy that we must never release because your body's going to release insulin anyway when you're eating. Keep your insulin as low as you can during the fast. And then during your eating window, eat what you prefer. Now, one caveat is if you know you have really high levels of fasting insulin, because you maybe talk to your doctor into giving you a test and you know it's high, then maybe you do want to work on getting your insulin down, temporarily changing up your diet for that, good work. But in the meantime, don't think of insulin as an enemy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, insulin is definitely not the enemy, there still could be an issue of excess insulin. If you're insulin resistant, and you're eating, even if you're eating like in a fasting window, if you're insulin resistant and what you're eating is causing the pancreas to have to release so much insulin, and then it's making the cells more insulin resistant. That could be an issue.

Gin Stephens: That would not be a good thing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Doing intermittent fasting is going to help with insulin issues. As far as what you're eating, I have not read the part of the book yet where he talks about practically what to eat. I'm excited to see what he says, but I do think that as far as macronutrients go and when it comes to insulin that a lot of people do find that either a lower carb, high fat diet, or a high fat, low carb diet often can make fuel partitioning more effective and help with insulin levels. Then obviously, processed foods and things like that are going to be pretty taxing on insulin release and the pancreas, so you can still make choices within your eating window to support, not crazy high insulin levels, and high blood sugar levels. But as far as like what you're focusing on, we're focusing on keeping insulin low during the fast.

Gin Stephens: Right. I want you to focus on, when you're new to IF, in my 28 Day FAST Start, Fast. Feast. Repeat., I want you to start intermittent fasting and those 28 days and your goal is to nail the clean fast. That's it. Nail the clean fast, you're not trying to also change everything you're eating at the same time. And then as you get to the end of the adjustment period as you go on to live your life as an intermittent faster, you can start tweaking your food choices to see what makes you feel better. Melanie does that to this day, so do I. I recently learned how much better I feel without alcohol, and I'm still mad about that. [laughs]

Last night was Halloween, and my husband's like, “You want some wine?” I'm like, “Yes and no,” at the same time, so I didn't have any wine and it was okay. And it was fine, I felt great. So, there's that.

Melanie Avalon: I'll drink the wine for you.

Gin Stephens: Drink my wine.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Shall we go on to the next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes, this is from Cali, and the subject is Cold Therapy. I'm a little afraid to read it. She says, “Hello. Love the podcast. I've heard Melanie talk about cold therapy. Is there a specific episode that goes into detail or an article I can read? I'd love more info. Thank you, Cali.”

Melanie Avalon: Short question from Cali, short answer to Cali. Yes. I just aired the episode with the incredible Wim Hof who is known as The Iceman and this is what he does. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. It's at melanieavalon.com/cold. We talk all about it, cold showers, ice baths, all the stuff. Gin, it's getting cooler now, outside.

Gin Stephens: Boo. I know, I'm wearing my Uggs right now, and I'm wearing long pants and I'm also wearing a turtleneck kind of a shirt.

Melanie Avalon: I'm wearing my halter dress, and I wear it outside and it's so exciting. I parked far away, I don't know it's not that cold. This is the South. So, it's like 60s or--

Gin Stephens: I know, that's so cold. I'm freezing.

Melanie Avalon: I wear my halter dress and I park far away so that I have to walk in the cold.

Gin Stephens: Ugh, no. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: All right. We have a question from Kash. The subject is “Falling Hair and Peeling Nails” and Kash says, “Hi, Melanie and Gin. Thank you for the podcast. It is an informative, entertaining and the best part not preachy, you both make a great team. I've been intermittent fasting for the last two years with a break for about six weeks last year when I had meningitis. Once I recovered, I got back in the saddle to say, it has worked well for me. However, I am losing copious amounts of hair and my nails, fingers, and toes are cracking and peeling. The hair loss has been my hairline and I am super self-conscious of it.

I'm an avid listener of your podcast, but the IF podcast is my favorite. I have incorporated many other lifestyle changes which have helped me tapping meditation and red-light therapy to name a few of my favorites. I hope you can help me with any suggestions with my current dilemma. I wait patiently to hear your next podcast.” Oh, “from Durban, South Africa.”

Gin Stephens: I love it.

Melanie Avalon: Kindest regards, Kash, or it might be Kosh, I don't know how to say it.

Gin Stephens: I love to hear from international listeners and those from just down the street, all listeners. But it really makes me happy to think of people all over the globe listening to our podcast. I just really love that. Anyway, I'm not going to say whether that's related to intermittent fasting or not, because it might not be. Now there is something that can happen with intermittent fasting that could cause hair loss. Specifically, if you're new to intermittent fasting and your body perceives it as a stress, you can have a hair loss that lags behind the stress by a few months. And that kind of hair loss, your hair will generally grow back, but you're not new to intermittent fasting. You've been doing it for two years with a break for six weeks last year when you had meningitis. So, I would not think that the intermittent fasting was the cause. I would look back a few months and see what happened.

I mean, of course, we've had this pandemic, but look back a few months and see if that's the cause of your hair loss, then that stress is what caused it. Also, however, the fingernails, that's the part that makes me think that maybe there's something even more underlying this, I would not just say, “Hey, this is intermittent fasting,” because there are many reasons that your nails might start to peel or become brittle. Some of them can do with certain deficiencies. For example, iron deficiency, if you have anemia, then that could cause this. I would get your blood tested, see if you could be deficient in something, it could be related to thyroid issues, other diseases. So, I would definitely work with your health practitioner and see and I would not say, “Oops, this is just something from the fasting,” because actually, fasting itself should not cause you to lose hair, or to have the peeling, cracking nails. There could indirectly be relationship with the hair. Like I said, if it was your body perceiving, beginning fasting as a stress, but you're not new to fasting. So, I would not think that was the case. I would look for a cause with your doctor. Melanie, what do you have to say?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I agree, what you said about. If it's perceived as a stress, I think it could relate to hair loss. I think that's an individual case basis. I agree, I think fingernails are one of the best places where we can pretty much see nutritional deficiencies occur. Oftentimes, it's hard to see that happening on the inside, but I think it shows up pretty often with our nails. So, I would say focusing on the food choices and working with that practitioner to figure out where you might be missing with the nutrients.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Again, people might say, “Oh well, fasting’s made me nutritionally deficient.” And really, it's not that. We can get the nutrients we need and an eating window. But it's just a matter of figuring out, what deficiencies you have and why? Different things can cause you to be deficient in your body not using the nutrients appropriately. Like if something's going on in your gut, you might not be absorbing things properly. So, yeah, get that checked out.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really glad you brought that last point up because the leaky gut thing. Sometimes it's not so much that you're not physically putting the nutrients into your mouth as much as you're not absorbing them because of gut issues.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Someone might say, “Oop, it's fasting.” No. If you're eating nutritious foods in your eating window, and your body is functioning properly, you should be able to get the nutrients that you need to not be deficient.

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We have a question from Jackie. The subject is Supplements. She says, “Hello. Finding this podcast has been wonderful. And I have been getting such great information about IF from you ladies. I've been doing IF for the past five months and it has really helped with my weight loss. I typically am fasting for 18 to 20 hours and eating for four to six hours. My question is regarding supplements that you have to take multiple times a day. I currently take a probiotic once a day, and fish oil and curcumin.” How do you say that?

Melanie Avalon: I think people say both ways, curcumin and curcumin.

Gin Stephens: All right, well, just whatever that is, twice a day.

Melanie Avalon: I usually say curcumin.

Gin Stephens: Okay. “I have read that each of those is better taken with food, but when your eating window is short, how can you split up the supplements to gain the most benefit? How long does it take your body to absorb? Thanks so much.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Jackie, great question. So, I keep referring people off to other episodes, but I just interviewed the Caltons and they wrote a book called Rebuild Your Bones. They're all about micronutrient deficiency and vitamin deficiency and timing of supplements, and competing nutrients, and how certain nutrients compete with other nutrients. We specifically talked about how to get proper nutrient absorption and the timing of it if you're doing intermittent fasting or one meal a day situation. So, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. It's at melanieavalon.com/bones.

All of that said, to answer your question, with the ones that you're taking specifically., so like a probiotic, I would just take with food, the fish oil also, I would say with food with although what's really interesting is this kind of goes against the clean fast idea, but I interviewed Joel Greene like I said recently, and he talks about how taking omega-3s while fasting actually up-regulates, I don’t know certain processes that are really beneficial, and it was really fascinating. That said, I'm personally a little bit on the fence about omega-3 supplementations anyway because I think the main thing to be addressing is reducing omega-6, it's like we say that you can't out exercise a bad diet. It's hard to out omega-3, a high omega-6 load, which is what we're trying to do today. We're taking omega-3 supplements. So rather than focusing on fish oil, I think it can be really beneficial to just focus on reducing your omega-6es. So that's found in things like seed oils, vegetable oil, canola oil, corn, sunflower, as well as a lot of nuts and seeds.

I actually do take a krill oil though supplement, and I take it when I'm opening my window. Curcumin, I actually just will add turmeric to food. Again, you could probably just take it with food, but you're talking about like, when your eating window is short, how do you split up the supplements to gain the most benefit? I think for things where it is a supplement and listen to the episode, like I said with the Caltons because we talk about this, but there is something about absorption and when things will absorb best. I personally when I'm taking supplements, I take them usually at the beginning when I'm opening with my food, but yeah.

Gin Stephens: I also want to say that probably the people who take this twice a day, or the supplement people, they want you to take it twice a day. They're telling you to take it twice a day. Do you really need to be taking it twice a day? I doubt it. Take it with your food and fit it in like that.

Melanie Avalon: Caltons, it's really interesting because they think a lot of like supplements on the market, especially multivitamins just have ratios that they'll have competing nutrients, so they cancel each other out. They have too high doses or too low doses. And so they're really specific about like when you take supplements and what you take and when you take it.

Gin Stephens: Yep. All right.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, super quick question. This comes from Heather. Heather says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. With a clean fast, is it possible to use white balsamic vinegar in sparkling water? I know it is okay for diabetics, as the acidic acid mitigates the effect of the small amount of carbs in the balsamic vinegar, by slowing down the gut response to those sugars. I wonder if the slight sweet or sour taste might trigger an insulin response, which is not what we want and to clean fast. Thank you for your advice and all your fasting guidance.”

Gin Stephens: Yes, I do not recommend any kind of vinegar whatsoever during the fast. There's no need to have it during the fast. It's a flavor, to food flavor. Nope, keep that in your eating window. We know that vinegar is effective when used with food, but, nope, save that for your eating window. All vinegar.

Melanie Avalon: To that point, we probably could have talked about this earlier, so I'm glad that we're ending with this because we're talking about insulin and blood sugar in your eating window. A lot of people do find that adding things like vinegar to their eating window can help with the blood sugar response help with all of that. When taken with food, it can be really helpful, but when taking fasted, two things, Gin just talks about the taste of it and all of that. And then also there's the possibility that it could might drop you too low and make you have a reactive hypoglycemia or a low blood sugar response. Yes, I would say err on the side of no vinegar during the fast, but I'm glad we brought it up because that was something we could have mentioned for something to experiment with, with your food is adding vinegar, especially having like a higher carb meal.

Gin Stephens: When I put vinegar on my fries. We did that the other night. My dishwasher was broken, did I talk about that?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, I’ve got the new one. It's here and I'm so excited. Did I tell you that they brought it, then they couldn't install it that day and I almost lost it? I didn't lose it. Luckily they left before I knew what was happening. So I was having a call with somebody while when they came, when they were there to my husband dealt with it. They showed up with the dishwasher. It had been a month that I've been without a dishwasher. Okay, almost a month. I've been hand washing my dishes and I was so excited. I had all my meal plan meals that I was going to cook and I'm like, right, which ones don't need a lot of dishes, so I used all those first. And I was so excited. I was going to cook something for dinner that required me to use lots of dishes to cook it, but that was okay, I was going to have a dishwasher.

They show up, they drop the dishwasher off in the kitchen and then they leave, while I'm on this phone call. I get off the phone call, and I'm like, “What's happening?” A dishwasher, in the box, in the middle of my kitchen. For real, just sitting there. I'm like, “What's happening?” Chad said, “Oh, they had to go. They didn't bring the hose to install.” I'm like, “What? Is this a joke?” He's like, “Nope, not a joke.” And he said the guy was going to come back on Friday. I don't know what he said to the guy, but the guy came at 6:30 in the morning the next day and installed it. But I was like, “I am unable to cook another dinner.” We had to go out to eat. So, we went out to eat and we went to one of my favorite places in town Farmhouse Burgers. They have really high-quality grass-fed beef and they bake their bread, I think, anyway. And so I had their fries with malt vinegar, and it's so delicious.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm excited. I got flooded two months ago now.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Finally, tomorrow and the next day they're fixing it.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's good.

Melanie Avalon: But it's going to be craziness, I have to move. I have to move apartments. Well, they have like a guest.

Gin Stephens: Okay, just temporarily.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But I've been living in mold for two months.

Gin Stephens: Oh, gosh. We're looking at houses, trying to do some investing and we wouldn't-- was it yesterday morning? Yeah, we went yesterday morning and looked at a house, as soon as we walked through the door, I was like, “Nope.” You could tell it was full of mold.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's a no. Just no. I just want to say, listeners, if you're at all suspicious, I really cannot encourage enough doing an air test for mold. Not a moisture test, an air test.

Gin Stephens: Is that what you did? You did one?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I did it myself. I was like, “I'm just going to do this.” And that escalated it, I guess.

Gin Stephens: And then they can't argue with that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it was mold toxins will do a number on your immune system. All righty. Well, on that note, if you would like to submit your own questions to the podcast, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram where we are trying to be more active. Baby steps. I'm @MelanieAvalon. Gin is @GinStephens. Oh, November 3rd.

Gin Stephens: Yep.

Melanie Avalon: Hopefully, there will be a picture on my Instagram on November 3rd of me with Gin’s book at Target. Are you going to do it, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Oh, gosh, I'm definitely going to do it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Although that will already have passed by the time this episode comes out. But, yes, I'm totally going to go look for it. Actually, I'm going to the beach that day. So, I'm going to go to our Target, then I'm going to drive to the beach, then I'm going to go to that Target. Well, depending on what time, we'll see. I'm definitely going to go to more than one Target.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to order a selfie stick to make this easier.

Gin Stephens: All right. That's a good idea. Yeah, I'm bad at selfies. So, maybe I need a selfie stick.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like that might make it easier. Follow us on Instagram, see if we are interesting. See if we're more interesting. See if on November 3rd we posted. You can join our Facebook groups. IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life. Gin has a lot, which any of them, Gin, would you like to plug?

Gin Stephens: Life Lessons with Gin and Sheri, that's a good one to come to. It's new. I love it.

Melanie Avalon: So, join us there. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Enjoy the early darkness tonight.

Gin Stephens: I will not enjoy it. Thank you. [laughs] I'm already ready for bed. What is it like? It's 4:00 PM and I'm exhausted. All right. Talk to you in a week. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Nov 22

Episode 188: Gin’s New Podcast, Gut Health, Berberine, Constipation, GI Distress, Issues with Keto, Reversing Gray Hair And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 188 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

 JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time, New Members Get 2 New York Strips And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks When They Place Their First Order At Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

Listener Q&A: Lillian - TMI Alert!

JOOVV RED LIGHT THERAPY DEVICES:  For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

ATRANTIL: Use The Link Lovemytummy.com/ifp With The Code IFP, To Get 10% Off!

Listener Q&A: Tracy - Ketosis

Who needs to avoid Fat Bombs and BPC?

Kiss my Keto C8 MCT Oil

Listener Q&A: Jessica - Less Gray Hair??

Dirty Genes: A Breakthrough Program to Treat the Root Cause of Illness and Optimize Your Health (Ben Lynch)

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 188 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Friends, Black Friday is coming up and I'm about to tell you how you can get early access to ButcherBox’s free steak sampler. We're talking two free grass-fed New York strips and four grass-fed top sirloins. Do not miss this. We are huge fans around here of ButcherBox. They make it easy to get high quality humanely raised meat that you can trust shipped straight to your door. I hardcore research their practices, you guys know I do my research, and what they're doing is incredible. Their beef is 100% grass fed and grass finished. Their chicken is free-range and organic. Their pork is heritage breed and super importantly. They are all about caring for the lives of both their animals and the livelihoods of their farmers, treating our planet with respect and allowing us to enjoy better meals together.

By cutting out the middleman at the grocery store and working directly with farmers to ship directly to the consumer, they're making it actually affordable to get this amazing high-quality meat which is help supporting the future of our planet. They have boxes that can fit every single need. So, if you want more steak or more seafood or more chicken, it's all there. And those meals come frozen for freshness, packed in an eco-friendly 100% recyclable box. Their cattle are all 100% grass fed, roaming on pasture with room to graze. Their chickens are raised humanely. No cages, crates, or crowding and using controlled atmosphere stunning practices to minimize stress in the animals. They uphold the strictest of standards in the seafood industry, which as I found out really crazy things go down in the seafood industry. It's shocking. If you want to learn more about that check out my blog post about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox.

To get early access to Butcherbox’s insane Black Friday special, just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast or enter the promo code, IFPODCAST, at checkout, that will get you two free grass-fed New York strips and four free grass-fed top sirloins all in your first box. This is an insane offer. Again, that's butcherbox.com/podcast for early access to ButcherBox’s Black Friday steak sampler.

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you looking for the perfect gifts this holiday season for yourself and others? Well, the average male uses 6 skincare products per day, the average female uses 12. And as it turns out, conventional skincare and makeup is full of toxins. We're talking things like endocrine disrupters, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight, and even carcinogens linked to cancer. So, while you may be fasting clean, you may be putting compounds directly into your body during the fast that can be affecting both your health and weight loss. Thankfully, there's an easy solution.

There's a company called Beautycounter and they make an array of skincare makeup products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about all of the ingredients that you put on. Their products are even tested multiple times for heavy metals. And for the holiday season, Beautycounter has so many amazing gift sets. These are bundled products at a discount, and they make incredible gifts. Think about it. You can get the products for yourself or for your friends and family and help clean up their skincare, all in disguise of gift-giving. Works pretty well. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you're trying to figure out exactly which products to get, check out my Beautycounter quiz, that's at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. And for the latest discounts and giveaways from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is episode number one 188 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am great. I'm getting so excited about my new podcast.

Melanie Avalon: I'm getting excited about your new podcast.

Gin Stephens: Episode 0. We've listened to it. We have the show opener, we have the music. We've listened to Episode 0 and it's going to go live next week, which will be live already by the time that this podcast comes out, so people will be able to find Episode 0 of the Life Lessons podcast. It's just called Life Lessons. And you'll know it's me because it will say hosted by Gin Stephens and Sheri Bullock. Listen to Episode 0 and subscribe. The Sleep episode comes out December 2.

Melanie Avalon: That's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's very exciting.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so Episode 0 is a topic. It's not like a--

Gin Stephens: Episode 0 is like meet the hosts kind of a thing. And the reason we're doing an Episode 0 is because you know how first you have to get accepted on all the platforms and you don't know how long that's going to take.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: It just usually takes a couple days, but we decided we wanted episode one to come out December 2.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so Episode One is to Sleep episode, and Episode 0 is?

Gin Stephens: It's just meet Gin and Sheri. We call it the teaser episode. I did that for Intermittent Fasting Stories. I had Episode 0 that had some little blurbs from upcoming episodes. It's like a placeholder, our podcast is coming. That way you can have Episode One drop the day you want it to draw because you're already accepted everywhere.

Melanie Avalon: Don't we know about this?

Gin Stephens: Yes, we do, although it's been a long time. Didn't our podcast-- The reason it's on Sundays is because that just happened to be when it initially went live?

Melanie Avalon: I don't think so.

Gin Stephens: I thought so. I thought that that was the date went live or maybe we decided-- I don't know, it's been so long.

Melanie Avalon: I feel we wanted it to be Mondays for the first one we did it maybe on a Sunday to be sure. We released it earlier.

Gin Stephens: That's right, but ours is Monday, not Sunday. I was thinking the day early.

Melanie Avalon: Because we used early access on--

Gin Stephens: Okay, I was thinking about early access, and that doesn't even happen anymore. That shows how on top of things I am. What day is it? Where am I? What year is it? I don't even know. And we're recording this right before the time change. Can I just say I don't like the time change?

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Wait a minute. Wait. This is one of my favorite days of the year.

Gin Stephens: I don't like the fall time change. I like the springtime change.

Melanie Avalon: I hate the spring-- What is one of my least favorite days of the year?

Gin Stephens: Well, see, I'm not surprised. I don't like the fall time change.

Melanie Avalon: It's fabulous.

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: It starts getting darker earlier.

Gin Stephens: I hate that. I want to go to bed as soon as it starts.

Melanie Avalon: No, I love it. Bring on the dark. I love the dark.

Gin Stephens: And I don't like-- because I wake up so early naturally, I don't like that. Now the time has shifted-- Well, not now, but once it shifts, I'll be waking up at like 4:30 in the morning ready to get up. But it's too early to get up.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't have that problem.

Gin Stephens: So, I don't like it. Messed me up.

Melanie Avalon: I'm actually crying from laughing right now.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I bet you're. Anyway, I don't like it. I don't like when it's dark early.

Melanie Avalon: I've been so excited this whole week about it.

Gin Stephens: I'll be excited in the spring.

Melanie Avalon: And I'm awake when the time change happens. So, there's this magical moment where you get a whole another hour. It's so exciting. You live your life for an hour and then you get it all over again.

Gin Stephens: I always wonder about people who work the overnight shift. They're at work and then the time changes. Do they have to stay an extra hour? I bet they do.

Melanie Avalon: I guess so. Actually, I used to be awake at 2:00, but now I'm pretty good about not-- or being asleep a little bit before that. I pat myself on the back if it's before 2:00.

Gin Stephens: I think I've been awake at 2:00, still awake. Let me just say, I've been still awake at 2:00 one time for the whole 2020.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh.

Gin Stephens: I was at the beach.

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Other than that, nope.

Melanie Avalon: What are you going to be for Halloween?

Gin Stephens: Gin Stephens. I don't dress up for Halloween. Do you dress up for Halloween?

Melanie Avalon: No. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Yeah, tomorrow's Halloween, listeners, when we're recording this but we are having like a block party, and I'll go to that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's fun.

Gin Stephens: Like a neighborhood get-together. It'll probably be a lot of kids. So, we'll see. By the way, everybody, we are going to be safe, we will socially distance, we will wear our masks, and that's good. Maybe I should get a wacky mask-- and we'll be outside. Yeah, it's going to be outside. But everyone's going to be safe, but I know some areas of the country are more locked down than Georgia. I will say Cal's coming home in December for Christmas. I'm so excited Cal and Kate are coming. But he lives in San Francisco, and so we're talking about what we're doing at Christmas. He's like, “I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that.” I'm like, “Come on.”

Melanie Avalon: He's not coming home?

Gin Stephens: Well, he is coming home. But he doesn't want to go to the family Christmas. He just wants to be here with us because they have more restrictions in San Francisco. It's just interesting to hear because here in Georgia, things are fairly open. We wear our masks everywhere we go, we socially distance, we wait in line six feet apart. But you don't realize that it's different in other places.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's so interesting.

Gin Stephens: It is very interesting. He's flying Delta because they're still keeping their planes more socially distanced, that sort of thing. But I'm just so excited that he's coming home, I ordered new Christmas stockings.

Melanie Avalon: Aww.

Gin Stephens: I needed to get one for Kate.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is exciting, because we have our old ones that we've had forever, just for the four of us, our family. But I started looking to find a matching one for Kate, and of course, I couldn't find a matching one. And it would just stand out so differently, it would look so different. So, I just got--

Melanie Avalon: All new ones.

Gin Stephens: All new stockings. So, now, Will needs to either find somebody while I can still buy this set. Get one just like it or--

Melanie Avalon: That's really funny.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. No rush, Will, sorry. He's only 21. Although, I was married at 21 and Chad was already married by that point. And Cal was married at 21. So, Will is 21. He needs to get with it. I'm kidding.

Melanie Avalon: Got to fulfill the Stephens tradition.

Gin Stephens: We're early marriers around here.

Melanie Avalon: You are early marriers. I remember when one of my best friends in high school got married and it was before she was 21 and I kept thinking, I would want to wait till I was at least 21, so everybody at the wedding could drink.

Gin Stephens: I was 21 when we got married, but Chad was actually still 20.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, when I say we were both 21, I mean, we both were married by 21 is what I meant.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Wow.

Gin Stephens: He was not able to drink legally at our wedding.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I know, that's funny. But then, we went to Jamaica and everybody could drink there. So, good times.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That always helps.

Gin Stephens: It does.

Melanie Avalon: I have two updates.

Gin Stephens: Okay, what are they?

Melanie Avalon: I'm trialing now my second CGM because I was trialing the Levels company and now I'm trialing Nutrisense. They both use the FreeStyle Libre. And I had the interview with Levels, it was awesome.

Gin Stephens: Oh, good. What did you learn? What's a quick thing that you know I would love to hear?

Melanie Avalon: What's really interesting, so you know how I was saying that I wasn't super happy with my fasting blood sugars and stuff like that?

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: So, in the in between, I did the Levels for two weeks and then I think I took off like around five days. I wanted my arm to recover. It doesn't hurt, but just having that thing in your arm for two weeks, I was like, I just want that area to air out.

Gin Stephens: Right. I know what you mean.

Melanie Avalon: So, I took five days off, and I started supplementing motivated by one of the listener questions that we received, berberine. Wow. I mean, I think it's the berberine, that's making a huge difference. But wow.

Gin Stephens: Really?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, it's also making me a little bit suspicious about the accuracy of these CGMs, not the accuracy as far as like the changes go. And this is the big takeaway for me from it, is you really can see your trends and how you're responding and how your blood sugar is changing. I do wonder about the accuracy is supposed to be within 10 points or whatever, blood Sugar points, however is it measured. But in any case, this time around, assuming it's accurate, my blood sugar's incredible. During the day, it's 70s or 80s. After eating, it doesn't even go above 90s.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's interesting. That seems low. What are you eating?

Melanie Avalon: Low carb.

Gin Stephens: That might be what you would expect for low carb, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think so. What's really interesting is the difference with Nutrisense-- For listeners, I will be airing both of the episodes and I will have coupons, I don't have it yet, but I'll have coupons for listeners to get discounts or something. So, I'll put links in the show notes to those episodes when they come out. But hold off for that is the point. But in any case, Nutrisense, you do your stuff, and then they email you and talk to you about what's going on.

Gin Stephens: Like feedback.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And so, the girls were talking to me, and she was talking about my late-night eating and how it might be better to eat earlier. And I was like, “Well, actually--” all this information about my thoughts about how complicated it is and nuanced and how we talk about this all the time and how I personally think that, yes, all things considered, I do think eating earlier is better. But I think that the majority of the information does not take into account like eating late and an intermittent fasting type time-restricted eating pattern, which has been really receptive and it's been a really good dialogue. But her responses have so far been like, “Well, you're responding really well to meals,” or, “You're responding really well to your late-night meal.” So, it's really interesting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, you can't argue with good results.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, the berberine, for listeners, we talked about before. It's a natural herb, and since we answered that listeners question, I've done a lot more research on it pretty consistently, and all the trials rivals metformin, which is a prescribed medication for diabetes-- rivals Metformin effects on like blood sugar on HbA1c, which is your long-term marker of how higher blood sugar levels are affecting your red blood cells. And it doesn't tend to have the side effects that metformin can have with GI distress and stuff like that. Although I posted it on my Instagram, and one person was like, “Why are you taking pharmaceutical medications for diabetes? Shouldn't you be addressing your diet first?” I was like, “This is not a pharmaceutical. I do address my diet. This is a plant compound.”

Gin Stephens: Is that someone who had never heard of you or met you before?

Melanie Avalon: I guess so. I answered her nicely, though, and explained the situation. So, it's not a pharmaceutical. I've been talking about it on my Facebook group, which is IF Biohackers. So, friends, join me there, but a lot of people have been asking me about the berberine experience, and have been talking about their own experience.

Gin Stephens: Well, very interesting.

Gin Stephens: All right. Shall we move on? We have from Lillian the subject is TMI Alert. “Hi ladies. I will literally scream if I hear my question on your podcast.” Well, everyone, get ready. Lillian is screaming!

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: Lilian says, “I have been listening since March when I accidentally bumped into your podcast after listening to a Disney podcast. IF has changed my life. I went from 165 pounds to my goal weight of 124. I'm 50 years old, and a mother of two. Lost my way doing 20:4, and now I'm in maintenance doing 18:6. I asked this question on Gin's group, and she tagged Melanie that would probably have a better answer, but I guess Melanie didn't see it. Sorry about the rambling. My question is, what do you really recommend?

I struggle with constipation, have for a really long time. Right now, I don't have insurance and cannot afford to look into this medically out of pocket. My father passed away in December from colon cancer and my sister beat the same seven years ago. I know I really have to look into it, and I will as soon as I can. It's my priority. What do you ladies recommend to start helping my gut? Is it Atrantil? Is it BiOptimizers or anything else? I eat pretty healthy. I eat whole foods, meat, chicken, fish, all vegetables, etc. I'm a [unintelligible [00:30:58] eater, but also the type of person who won't use the microwave because I don't want any craziness in my food.” Sidenote, Melanie, do you use a microwave?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: I had to say that. I suddenly had a thought that I bet Melanie didn't want any craziness in her food, either. I use a microwave. No one is surprised, right?

Melanie Avalon: I'm not actually so much concerned about-- when the food is microwaved, the done food I'm not so concerned about, but I am just suspicious, in general, I don't know. I don't use it because I don't need it.

Gin Stephens: I use mine. Daily Harvest bowls that I to have lately to open my window. I microwave those. And like, if I'm heating something up, like a warm drink in my eating window, I'll microwave it.

Melanie Avalon: I don’t think I need it for anything. Yeah, I have a convection oven that does all the different things.

Gin Stephens: And Chad uses it all the time to heat up his lunch because he eats lunch. But, yeah, we use a microwave. Our microwave right now, Melanie, I don't know if it's on its last legs. We just had to replace our dishwasher. I'm not sure when they built this kitchen, early 2000s, I guess. But it's a built-in KitchenAid microwave-oven combo. So, I know it would be really pricey to fix or replace. So, we're trying to keep it going, but sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. You put your food in and it'll go for two minutes and then it's still ice cold. So, it's like playing the roulette wheel of microwaving. Will we have hot food? We don't know. [unintelligible [00:32:34] try to fix it, they're going to try again. Fingers crossed.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. Okay, we have thrilling news about Joovv. They have new devices and we have a discount. Yes, a discount, no longer a free gift, a discount. As you guys know, there are a few non-negotiables in my personal daily routine. I focus on what and when I eat every single day. And I also focus on my daily dose of healthy light through Joovv’s red light therapy devices. Guys, I use my Joovv all the time. Red light therapy is one of the most effective health modalities you can use in your home. I've personally seen so many health benefits. I find it incredible for regulating my circadian rhythm, helping my mood, boosting my thyroid, smoothing my skin, and I've also used it on multiple occasions for targeted pain relief. Anyone who's familiar with red light therapy pretty much knows that Joovv is the leading brand. They pioneered this technology. And they were the first ones to isolate red and near-infrared light and make it accessible and affordable for in-home use.

Since then, they've remained the most innovative, forward-thinking light therapy brand out there. And we're so excited because Joovv just launched their next generation of devices, and they've made huge upgrades to what was already a really incredible system. Their new devices are sleeker, they're up to 25% lighter, and they all have the same power that we've come to expect from them. They've also intensified their coverage area, so you can stand as much as three times further away from the device and still get the recommended dosage. They've also upgraded the setup for the new devices with quick easy mounting options, so your new Joovv can fit just about any space. And the new devices include some pretty cool new features, things like their Recovery Plus mode, which utilizes pulsing technology to give yourselves an extra boost to recovery from a tough workout with rejuvenating near-infrared light.

And this is my personal favorite update. So, for those of us who like to use Joovv devices to wind down at night, they now have an ambient mode that creates a calming lower intensity of light at night. Guys, I am so excited about this. Using this light at night is way healthier than bright blue light from all of our screens, and much more in line with your circadian rhythm. I was using my current Joovv devices at night anyway to light my whole apartment, so this new ambient mode is really going to be a game-changer for me. Of course, you still get the world-class customer service from your helpful, friendly Joovv team. So, if you're looking for a new Joovv device for your home, we have some very exciting news. You can go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code, IFPODCAST. You'll get an exclusive discount on Joovv’s newest devices. Yes, discount, I said it. That's J-O-O-V-V dotcom, forward slash I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. Exclusions apply. And this is for a limited time only. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Gin Stephens: All right. Anyway, back to Lillian's question. She says, “Doritos is also my junk of choice, but I rarely have it. I love you ladies so much. I can relate to both of you at different times. I was so upset that I caught up to all the episodes last week. Now, I can't binge anymore. But don't worry, I've already found your other podcasts. But this one where I get you both is definitely my favorite. Keep on keeping on, ladies.” Well, she's going to have lots and lots of hours of listening with the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast and Intermittent Fasting Stories, and then Life Lessons with Gin and Sheri.

Melanie Avalon: So many things.

Gin Stephens: You can listen to Melanie and Gin, like every day of the week, before we'll be done. We're going to be on five days a week. Wait, no, four days a week.

Melanie Avalon: When does Intermittent Fasting Stories air?

Gin Stephens: Intermittent Fasting Stories comes on Thursdays. Life Lessons will be Wednesday.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so this is Monday, Life Lessons Wednesday, Intermittent Fasting Stories Thursday, Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Friday.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, Tuesday, you're going to have to just keep yourself occupied. But for a while I had Tuesday Intermittent Fasting Stories. I had it coming on twice a week. So, I was trying to catch up. I had so many guests. So, I had a Tuesday and a Thursday, but I can't keep up with that pace. So, that would be funny. We would have like all five days covered. I just can't do it anymore. That was too much.

Melanie Avalon: I did just realize I was going through my guests I have booked for Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, and I'm actually covered through April, which is-- that's a lot of guests, which is overwhelming for me to think about because they're all a lot to prep for, but so much content.

Gin Stephens: I mean, it's a lot. It really is. I'm recognizing that with the new podcast with Life Lessons because I actually have to do more prep. With Intermittent Fasting Stories, I just talk to somebody, that's easy. I love it. I love to talk to people, but with Life Lessons, I have to do some research, but I'm enjoying it. It's different. All right, so Lillian's question.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So gut health, basically. And she said she struggles with constipation, correct?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad this question came up because that was one other thing I've noticed with the berberine. It's really been helping my bloating and everything, which I did not anticipate, but then I googled it and that seems to have an effect for that, but I'm not saying to take berberine for that. So, when it comes to GI issues, there's so many factors going on. And it can be really hard to know what the root cause is and what's going on. And a lot of people find the diets that work for them and they're able to resolve it with diet or manage it with diet. For me, personally, and this is just me, but I follow a low FODMAP diet and I find that works really, really well for me. I'll put a link in the show notes to my iTunes app called Food Sense Guide, developed by Gin’s son, Cal. I'm actually really surprised, Gin, because I'll randomly look at it if I have to share the link with somebody. And usually, whenever I look at it, it's usually ranked really high in iTunes-- The other day I checked, and it was number 10. And I was like, “Okay.”

Gin Stephens: In your category?

Melanie Avalon: For food and drink apps. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Awesome. I love that. That's really cool.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “Oh, it's keeping on keeping on.” And I did just release an update for it. I added spices and herbs, which was exciting because I didn't have that in there. But in any case, so finding the foods that work for you can be really key. She says she eats whole foods and sounds like she's pretty in tune with that. As far as the actual GI distress, we do talk about a lot of different supplements for gut health and I feel it's been a while since we've revisited that, so I can let you know what's going on with that. So Atrantil is a blend of polyphenols and peppermint, but it specifically has a compound that targets-- it's not actually normal gut bacteria, it's actually a more ancient organism that exists in our gut called-- I think it's called, I don't know how to say it, archaea bacteria, but those produce methane, and methane actually serves as a neurotransmitter in the gut and slows motility, so it can create constipation.

So, a lot of people with constipation, Atrantil is a game-changer for them. And they do have clinical data and trials behind this. I take it every single day. And it's one of those things that I'll like stop taking and then if my gut gets wonky, I'll start taking it again. And then, I'm like, “Why did I ever stop?” but it's pretty amazing. So, that's what Atrantil is for. I think our link for that is lovemytummy.com/ifp. The coupon code, IFP, gets you 10% off.

BiOptimizers, so they make digestive enzymes. If you're struggling, if you have gas and bloating, a lot of times people aren't digesting their food, so you might benefit from digestive enzymes. There are a lot of brands out there, but we've worked with BiOptimizers, and they make Masszymes, which is amazing. Probiotics can help a lot of people, depends on how you react to them, BiOptimizers does have one called P3-OM. I like it because it's a single strain rather than hitting your gut with all these random strains that you're not really sure what's happening, but it's a single strain and it's proteolytic, meaning it helps digest proteins. So, the more digestion you're doing, the better. As far as constipation in general, supplementing magnesium can be really, really helpful. So, again, BiOptimizers has a magnesium supplement. I also like Natural Calm, which is a drink form that you can make and I get the unflavored one and I drink that and I find that really, really helpful. Just keeping things flowing can be so key. So, finding the foods that work for you, finding things that support motility. If you're hypothyroid, that often can lead to constipation. So, if you are able to check your thyroid levels, that can be really helpful. Yeah, there's so much at play and there's so many opinions and perspectives and viewpoints. I think we're all just really unique and so you just have to experiment and find what works for you.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, everybody doesn't need every one of those things. But the one that works for you is the one that is a game changer.

Melanie Avalon: I think the food choices can be really, really key. Oh, by the way, the Food Sense app, it doesn't just show you FODMAPs, I don't know if I even said what it shows-- It has over 300 foods and it shows the different levels of potentially problematic compounds that you might be reacting to. So, if you find yourself reacting to foods, it shows things like gluten, lectins, histamine, salicylates, oxalates, like I said, FODMAPs, nightshades, sulfides, there's even more. So, I'll put a link to it in the show notes, but that's at melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide.

Gin Stephens: I just love that you and Cal just quietly working together on your app just--

Melanie Avalon: Just, yeah, motoring along.

Gin Stephens: He's such a good boy.

Melanie Avalon: No, he was amazing. Now for updates, I'm actually working with somebody he knew from school.

Gin Stephens: Oh, okay. Say his first name, is it Jacob?

Melanie Avalon: Nate.

Gin Stephens: Nate. I love Nate! Nate is someone that Cal went to high school with. He was a year behind Cal, and Nate's been at our house many a time.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, he did. He did all the recent updates.

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I'm glad Nate is holding up the tradition and doing a good job. We love Nate.

Melanie Avalon: I think I'm actually going to do another update soon and I'm going to do AIP, so it'll show if the food is AIP, autoimmune paleo. So, that'll probably be the next update in the works and I'll probably be working with Nate again for that. But, yeah, Cal did amazing job. It's just really surreal that it's-- that it’ll be number 10 in the food-- because there are a lot of apps in the world.

Gin Stephens: There are.

Melanie Avalon: So, it's exciting. Anyways, shall we move on to the next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: So, the next question comes from Tracy. The subject is Ketosis. And Tracy says, “Hi, ladies, I need your help, PLEEEAASSE.” She says, “I'm so confused about keto. I'm a huge fan and I value your opinion.” I like how she writes. She's very expressive. She says, “I've been doing IF for a year this month, and I love it. I just started with keto about two and a half months ago. I'm wanting to lose about eight pounds, but I also am looking for the health benefits. I've been keeping my fat up and fasting about 18 or 19 hours every day. I decided to get a blood monitor to see if I'm in ketosis, and I was shocked that I read between a 0.1 to 0.3, not even in nutritional ketosis. I started taking MCT oil and eating more fat and nothing. What am I doing wrong?

I've actually put back on four pounds that I lost with IF. I'm so discouraged and now so obsessed with tracking and macros. I want to cry. Do you have any advice? Also, should I track macros if I'm fasting 19 hours a day? I don't know what to do anymore. I honestly love you both and do listen to all your podcasts. But I still have so many questions. Thanks a bunch. Tracy.”

Gin Stephens: Well, I am not going to be your keto coach expert on how to do keto because that is not my expertise. But I will say this, there's a blog post that Dr. Jason Fung wrote years ago about “Who needs to add more fat?” And he said, “Well, not you if you're trying to lose fat,” and it's a great blog post. So, if you want to try to search for it, search for Jason Fung, Bulletproof Coffee, Who Needs More Fat, or something like that. There's words in the title, I can't think of it off the top of my head. But basically, he says that if you're trying to lose fat, you do not want to just keep adding fat bombs and MCT oil and eating more fat, that's not really going to help you. And you've actually noticed that to be true, Tracy, because you've put back on four pounds.

I also really am not a fan of chasing ketone reading numbers. I talk about this in Fast. Feast. Repeat., some of the reasons why numbers go down over time and why they may not be accurate. And we don't know this blood monitor that you have. You mentioned the brand name, it's not one I'm familiar with. You don't know that that's actually giving you inaccurate reading. I'm not really sure about that. But the key is, do you feel good and are you having fat loss? Because if you feel good and you're having fat loss, that's a good sign that what you're doing is working. If you're gaining weight, that's a sign that what you're doing is not working. I am one of those people that keto does not work for my body. I tried keto in 2014, I tried it for the entire summer, I didn't lose any weight at all. I constantly changed up my macros. I had a Ketonix breathalyzer, that was state of the art back then in 2014. I was able to blow ketones showing that I was in ketosis, but I didn't lose any fat. I'm pretty sure it's because of the amount I was taking in. And so, I stopped keto completely, reintroduced carbs, switched to intermittent fasting, and the weight started to come off at about a pound a week.

Now, my body does well with carbs. Yours may not, I don't really know, but your body might not be a body that does well with keto. So, I want you to really think about that. Why are you doing keto? Are you doing it because you know you feel best eating that way? If so, I would consider you don't want to just up, up, up your fat. You want to let your body make ketones from your stored body fat, and I wouldn't worry about the ketone readings. Just eat until you're satisfied, don't add extra fat just to add it. Focus on the high-quality vegetables that you can eat, the protein sources that you're eating. Would you say that's good advice, Melanie? Or am I getting it all wrong?

Melanie Avalon: No. 100%. I don't think chasing ketones is usually often the answer depending on your goals. If people's goals are just weight loss, chasing ketones is not always the route to that. If your goal is weight loss, I can't think of many situations where my answer would be add more fat. I mean, it's the highest density caloric source, and it's easy to have a lot and add in a lot to quickly make your meal way more calories. It's not the adding fat that's making you ketogenic as much as the lowering the carbs and lowering the insulin.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, the whole add more fat, just add more fat, add more fat, even in 2014, that was the standard advice people were giving. I was in a million keto groups on Facebook at the time and if you were struggling at all, the answer was, add more fat. I'm like, “Hmm,” that doesn't seem to be the right answer for me. Now, I understand why. But that was what everybody said, add more fat.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you might be more likely to generate ketones because you have this readily accessible source of fat to turn into ketones. And maybe your body is resistant to tap into your fat stores. But it's not like adding that fat makes you more likely to burn the body fat, it's doing the opposite.

Gin Stephens: If you want higher ketones, adding some MCT oil might be the great strategy. But that's not the goal.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. If you are doing really low carb, and you do want to add fat, and you want to make it most likely to lose weight, while still adding a lot of fat. She says she's taking MCT oil. So, I'm not encouraging this, but I'm saying some people are eating lower carb and they actually can't get enough calories because they're so full and they do want to add fat, but maybe they don't, but they still want to lose weight. So, if you get the C8-only version of MCT oil, that is the least likely chain of fat to get stored as fat. It gets processed by the liver, and is pretty much like uses fuel, sort of like a carb, but it's a fat and it can raise metabolism. So, if you're the type that is wanting to add fat, and wants at least likely to have fat storage potential, I will just say the C8 version. So, I know you can get that on Amazon, we can put links to it in the show notes. There's the Kiss My Keto brand, they make a C8 only, there's another one. I only use two specific brands because they come in glass bottles. And I don't want to be using MCT from a plastic bottle because that's just going to leach chemicals, I think, from the plastic. There's Kiss My Keto and then there's one called-- I look it up, I'll put it in the show notes, but yeah.

As far as I agree with everything that Gin said. Tracy, maybe have a reframe. Don't stress about ketones and adding more fat and all of that. And if you want to do lower carb, just do lower carb, and stop adding all the extra fat. If you want to switch up the macros because she says should she even track macros. It's up to you if you want to track macros. That's a whole another like world to discuss. Do you think that she should stay low carb, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean, she started with keto two and a half months ago. She only wants to lose about eight pounds, but she's regained four-- I'm not sure that low carb is what's right for her. I mean, I don't have any indication that it is--

Melanie Avalon: She's adding more fat though. I would say maybe if you're happy with the low-carb world, like the foods you're eating, maybe step one, stop adding all that extra fat. Just be low carb and see what happens. If that's not working and the keto boat doesn't seem to be resonating with you, then yeah, maybe try switching up the macros.

Gin Stephens: I think a lot of people see the popularity of keto right now and then they just assume it's right for everybody and that they need to jump on that bandwagon, and that's the only way they can lose weight. And so, that's just not true. Just because a lot of people are doing keto, doesn't mean that you need to do keto. I mean, maybe keto is great for your body.

Melanie Avalon: We actually talked about the problems of long-term keto in the Joel Greene episode. He is not a fan of long-term keto. He was talking about how in the long term, the ketogenic diet actually creates a lot of oxidative stress in the mitochondria of ourselves and it specifically encourages something called 4-HNE, which is linked to-- I forget the details, but it's oxidative stress and cancer and a lot of potential problems. He talks about it in his book about-- he thinks keto is healthy and therapeutic-- I don't ever want to put words in his mouth, but the interpretation I got was that it can be therapeutic for a shorter period of time or a season even. But long term, it's probably not the best.

Gin Stephens: I just know how my body is, and we tend to-- I've said this many, many times and the whole premise of Feast Without Fear, my second book, in fact, we tend to feel whatever foods make us feel best should just feel that for everybody. And so, I don't like to say no one should do keto long term because even though I feel it wouldn't be right for me and I also share some concerns, who am I to say it isn't the best for somebody's body long term, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: So, if you're doing keto long term and you feel great, and you're staying healthy, I don't want you to feel like we're telling you not to. But I don't know, it's a tough one. I have personal feelings about it, too.

Melanie Avalon: I really think it's all unique.

Gin Stephens: I think back to Wade Lightheart and his partner. I think the two of them and his partner, eats keto and has done it long term and it feels great and does well. So, who am I to say that you shouldn't do it long term when it truly works for him? It works for Matt, so.

Melanie Avalon: I think it's more likely that men can do it easier long term. I think women more often experience issues.

Gin Stephens: I think that could be true, that sounds plausible, but I'm a big fan of eating all the foods. I'm a little bit skeptical of any plan where you restrict something forever, and never again, you're going to have those things. I think that could lead to prob-- our goal is to be able to tolerate all things. But I understand that sometimes our bodies get really out of whack. And so, we can't tolerate all things and so then, keto could be very therapeutic, or a plant-based way of eating could be very therapeutic. It just depends on what your issues are. Ideally, we would all be healthy enough to eat all the foods because people weren't running around thousands of years ago, like, “I'm sorry, I can't eat that. I'm keto.” They just ate whatever they could find and eat.

Melanie Avalon: They also weren't eating grains.

Gin Stephens: Well, we could debate about grains, but I think people have been eating grains a long, long time. I think people have been healthily eating grains for thousands of years. I think as soon as people figured out how to eat grains, they were eating grains. So, I hope that that helped, Tracy. Just keep tweaking what you're eating until you feel great and you see results, that's your goal. I would stop trying to get everybody's-- like this coach, and this person, and even us, just eat what feels right to you. Don't try to add more things just because you read that you should add them. Eat foods that make you feel great, period.

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We have a question from Jessica Taylor, and I love this one. The subject is Less Gray Hair. She says, “Hi ladies, I've been clean IF for four months now after finding your podcast and also reading Fast. Feast. Repeat. I love your shows very informative with fun, easy to listen to personalities to boot. Thank you. I have not yet heard my question, so I hope it is not a repeat. Here goes.

In addition to all the amazing benefits I have already experienced with IF, I have noticed that I don't need to get my grays colored as often as I used to. I'm 49 and have always been healthy and fit. I have gone to my lovely color lady exactly every three weeks for several years now to get my grays colored. By the three-week mark, it is always time to go as the grays are showing up quite a bit. But since IF, I find myself repetitively calling to reschedule my hair color appointments for a few weeks later because there isn't as much of a need. I still have some grays growing in but not nearly as many. There is no question that there is a difference. It seems unlikely that IF could affect the color of one's hair, but maybe with autophagy, there's a slowing of the aging process that is resulting in fewer gray hairs. I have not changed anything else in my health or life routine that I can think of. Seems odd to me that it would be IF, but I cannot deny the definite difference in the longer spacing between my previous every three-week hair appointments. What do you think? Thanks, Jessica." Can I just say it real quick, Melanie, what I want to say?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: We have seen this before in the groups. So, yes, we have had people whose hair turns back to its prior color, no more gray. It sounds ridiculous. If I wrote a book and said your hair will go back to its normal color and you will lose the gray, it would sound fake and made up, but we've seen it enough times that I know that this happens for some people. Did not happen for me. I still have all my grays, but we hear it a lot. Actually today, Melanie, somebody in the One Meal A Day group posted photos of himself with his hair, and he actually used to have a receding hairline that is now better.

Melanie Avalon: Oh wow!

Gin Stephens: No lie. It looks like-- you can't even believe it, but he had such a receding hairline, bald area and now his hairline is back to how it used to be. It sounds crazy, but that's not the first time I've seen that either. If you're having increased human growth hormone, and you're having all these positive benefits that bring you back to a more youthful state in your body, yeah, I think it's plausible. What do you think?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so I'm currently prepping because I'm bringing on Dr. Ben Lynch onto my podcast, which is so exciting. He's basically one of the go-to authorities in my sphere for epigenetics and gene problems like MTHFR and stuff like that. And rereading his book, Dirty Genes, he talks about why we get gray hair, and there are two main genes involved with it. So, basically, the reason our hair becomes gray is when we are under stress, hydrogen peroxide is released as a side effect of that. Our MAOA gene, in particular, will eliminate excess stress compounds like epinephrine or norepinephrine, even dopamine, and it creates a lot of hydrogen peroxide in the process. So, the more stressed we are, the more hydrogen peroxide is floating around. And so, hydrogen peroxide can turn your hair gray.

On top of that, we have a gene called the GPX gene, and that's a big detox gene. And it's responsible for getting rid of the hydrogen peroxide that's released when we're stressed. And it does that by using glutathione, which is our body's master antioxidant. It basically turns the hydrogen peroxide into water, so then we just literally urinate out the hydrogen peroxide. But if our detox genes, so GPX-- well, two things if our MAOA gene, the gene that's in charge of regulating our stress neurotransmitters, is overburdened or overwhelmed, we might be getting a lot of hydrogen peroxide. If our detox gene, like GPX, is not able to keep up with all of the hydrogen peroxide and if our glutathione is getting taxed, that hydrogen peroxide builds up and turns your hair more and more gray.

So, any sort of like diet or lifestyle situation that is managing or reducing our stress levels is likely going to reduce the amount of hydrogen peroxide and reduce that graying effect. I was just thinking about it now because I hadn't thought about to this extent, because-- preventatively, it can be great for preventing gray hairs. But then, since hair does come in cycles-- and I don't know if it's true, I don't know a ton about hair growth, but I was just thinking, okay, if hair comes in cycles, and your hair is gray, but it's been turned gray from the hydrogen peroxide but then you're doing diet and lifestyle situations where you are keeping your stress down, supporting your body's detox systems, which fasting can do all of this, when the new hair comes in, it's not predestined to be gray. I don't think. I don't see how it would be. I can 100% see how you would be getting less gray hairs. And as we age, our glutathione levels are going down, our stress is maybe going up, so I think it makes complete sense. Very cool.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but we do see it and it sounds too good to be true, but if it's happening, believe it.

Melanie Avalon: I would say I'll put a link to that episode, but I don't think that episode will even remotely be out when this comes out.

Gin Stephens: People can anticipate it in the future.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. His book is called Dirty Genes, though. So, I'll put a link to his book in the show notes. What I love about him is he doesn't think you should like-- I mean, you can do genetic testing if you want, but he doesn't think you have to. He's saying that you can be pretty intuitive with what genes are off and making diet and lifestyle changes, and he is not all for-- because lot of people will be like, “Oh, I have MTHFR, take this supplement.” Or, you have this, take this supplement. And he's more about like diet and lifestyle approach, with very, very careful supplementation if you do that. So, yeah.

Well, if you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. There will be a full transcript in our show notes, as well as all the links that we talked about in today's show. So, that's at ifpodcast.com/episode188. You can join our Facebook groups. Mine is IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life.

Gin Stephens: Join us for a Life Lessons group, Life Lessons with Gin and Sheri. If you're a reader of Fast. Feast. Repeat., we'd love to have you in the Delay, Don't Deny Advanced group, you have to read Fast. Feast. Repeat., and you have to answer the questions to show that you have.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Then, you can follow us on Instagram. I'm actually posting pictures on Instagram now.

Gin Stephens: Oh my gosh, can I tell you something funny?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: I told you earlier that I had a meeting with my publisher team, and they told me I had to be better on Instagram. I'm like, “Okay,” and they're like, “We could help you find someone who can help you.” I'm like, “Okay,” that sounds like, all right. “They're like, “I noticed you haven't posted in two months.” I'm like, “Oh, lordy.”

Melanie Avalon: Instagram scares me.

Gin Stephens: That makes me happy because I feel it's just because I'm 51, but you're young.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. I don't like it, but I'm trying to do it.

Gin Stephens: I don't know. I'm trying too, but I've been told by my publisher that I have to do better with Instagram.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'll motivate you. You can motivate me.

Gin Stephens: I don't know how to use it. I'm just like, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: It makes me feel really stupid.

Gin Stephens: Me too. I feel so stupid just saying that.

Melanie Avalon: I can do the basic pictures, but the stories, I don't understand.

Gin Stephens: I don't know. They're like, “You can look at the story.” I'm like, “I don't know what that is. I don't know how to do that.”

Melanie Avalon: I don't understand. And people will tag me in stories, and it’ll be like, “Add to your story.” I'm like, “What does that mean? I don't understand what's happening.”

Gin Stephens: Okay, I feel better hearing that.

Melanie Avalon: But then, it is fun because you'll post it-- like I posted my most recent CGM yesterday, I think, and 42 comments and everybody's wanting to know-- they have thoughts. I was like, “Okay, this is kind of fun,” but I just like my Facebook group.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I know. And they were also like, “Now, we'd like to give you some tips for your Facebook group.” I'm like, “No, I don't need any tips.”

Melanie Avalon: You're like, “Oh, no, I'm good.”

Gin Stephens: They're like, “You could do this and that.” I'm like, “I'm not doing any of those things.” Just because that's not how the Facebook group works. We have a lot of people. We have 300,000 people in that one group. So, ah.

Melanie Avalon: I'm right there with you.

Gin Stephens: All right, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do Instagram.

Melanie Avalon: I think it's because it makes me feel really selfish because you're putting pictures of yourself.

Gin Stephens: I think that might be it too because I feel like it's-- I think you just nailed it.

Melanie Avalon: Because on my Facebook group, I'm posting links and I'm asking questions, and it's not about me.

Gin Stephens: Here's your-- “Yeah, I have a daily inspiration thread,” and stuff like that. I think you're right.

Melanie Avalon: But Instagram’s like, “Here's a picture of me with this supplement.”

Gin Stephens: Here's my dinner. Here's me doing this. Here's my shoe. [laughs] Okay, sorry for everyone who loves Instagram.

Melanie Avalon: So, follow us on Instagram.

Gin Stephens: We're going to be a lot more interesting soon.

Melanie Avalon: You'll know all of our insecurities when you--

Gin Stephens: Is there a book that would teach me a tutorial? I'm not kidding.

Melanie Avalon: I think you probably just need to hire somebody. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I don't know how to do that either. But they're going to send me some people. That sounds so weird. Apparently, when you're a New York Times bestselling author, you have to bring it.

Melanie Avalon: You got to have the Insta.

Gin Stephens: All right. I'm going to try to bring it.

Melanie Avalon: I do post every Friday for the episode-- Well, Friday or Saturday for my episode, but it's a picture of the episode. And I know they say that's like not-- it needs to be pictures of you. I'm like, “Okay.”

Gin Stephens: I'm also really terrible at selfies.

Melanie Avalon: I hate selfies.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm not good at it. I always look goofy. So, for goofy pictures of me and pictures of cats, follow me on Instagram. [laughs] No, it's going to get better. You'll see. Okay, 2021, that's my year. That's the year I'm going to really do Instagram. Okay, we can do it. We did just talk about habits on the Life Lessons podcast. And we both reread, refreshed ourselves with James Clear’s Atomic Habits, and you just have to just do it.

Melanie Avalon: I was talking about next day I have makeup on, I basically when I make up on, I stock-- I'm like, “Okay, we're done up. Let's take pictures with everything ever.” Maybe change the outfit, so it looks like a different day. And then, I'm like stocked up. So, I have about five more that I have stocked.

Gin Stephens: See, I put on makeup every day.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't. I don't have to, then.

Gin Stephens: All right. Well, good talk.

Melanie Avalon: Good times. So, follow us on Instagram, guys. Oh, yeah. I'm @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens on Instagram. All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Nov 15

Episode 187: Blood Sugar Variation, Flexibility, Yen Yoga, Collagen, Elastin, Losing Weight A Second Time, Berberine, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 187 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time, New Members Get 2 New York Strips And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks When They Place Their First Order At Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast

BLUBlox: Overexposure to blue light in our modern environments can lead to increased anxiety, stress, headaches, and other health conditions. Even a tiny exposure to artificial light can completely offset your circadian rhythm! Unlike many “blue light blocking” glasses on the market, BLUBlox provides glasses that block the exact blue wavelengths you need to regulate sleep, reduce anxiety, and much more! They also provide different types of glasses for the time of day, season, and your personal electronic and light exposure! Plus, for every BLUblox purchase, they donate a pair of glasses to someone in need! Go To bluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time, New Members Get 2 New York Strips And 4 Top Sirloin Steaks When They Place Their First Order At Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At Melanieavalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #60 - Wim Hof

INSIDE TRACKER: Go To Melanieavalon.com/Getinsidetracker And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

Listener Feedback: Miranda - Answer to Paige’s Flexibility Question Ep. 173

Listener Q&A: Katie - Second Try Has Been BRUTAL

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #65 - Mira And Jayson Calton

Listener Q&A: Amanda - Berberine

Keto Before 6®

BLUBLOX: Go To BluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

Join Our New Facebook Group: Life Lessons with Gin and Sheri

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 187 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Friends, Black Friday is coming up and I'm about to tell you how you can get early access to ButcherBox’s free steak sampler. We're talking two free grass-fed New York strips and four grass-fed top sirloins. Do not miss this. We are huge fans around here of ButcherBox. They make it easy to get high-quality humanely raised meat that you can trust shipped straight to your door. I hardcore research their practices, you guys know I do my research, and what they're doing is incredible. Their beef is 100% grass fed and grass finished. Their chicken is free range and organic. Their pork is heritage breed. And super importantly, they are all about caring for the lives of both their animals and the livelihoods of their farmers, treating our planet with respect and allowing us to enjoy better meals together.

By cutting out the middleman at the grocery store and working directly with farmers to ship directly to the consumer, they're making it actually affordable to get this amazing high-quality meat which has helped supporting the future of our planet. They have boxes that can fit every single need. So, if you want more steak or more seafood or more chicken, it's all there. And those meals come frozen for freshness, packed in an eco-friendly, 100% recyclable box. Their cattle are all 100% grass fed, roaming on pasture with room to graze. Their chickens are raised humanely, no cages, crates, or crowding, and using controlled atmosphere stunning practices to minimize stress in the animals. They uphold the strictest of standards in the seafood industry, which as I found out really crazy things go down in the seafood industry. It's shocking. If you want to learn more about that, check out my blog post about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox.

To get early access to Butcherbox’s insane Black Friday special, just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast or enter the promo code, IFPODCAST, at checkout, that will get you two free grass-fed New York strips and four free grass-fed top sirloins all in your first box. This is an insane offer. Again, that's butcherbox.com/podcast for early access to ButcherBox’s Black Friday steak sampler.

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you looking for the perfect gifts this holiday season for yourself and others? Well, the average male uses 6 skincare products per day, the average female uses 12. And as it turns out, conventional skincare and makeup is full of toxins. We're talking things like endocrine disrupters, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight, and even carcinogens linked to cancer. So, while you may be fasting clean, you may be putting compounds directly into your body during the fast that can be affecting both your health and weight loss. Thankfully, there's an easy solution.

There's a company called Beautycounter and they make an array of skincare makeup products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about all of the ingredients that you put on. Their products are even tested multiple times for heavy metals. And for the holiday season, Beautycounter has so many amazing gift sets. These are bundled products at a discount, and they make incredible gifts. Think about it. You can get the products for yourself or for your friends and family and help clean up their skincare, all in disguise of gift-giving. Works pretty well!

You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you're trying to figure out exactly which products to get, check out my beauty counter quiz, that's at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. And for the latest discounts and giveaways from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 187 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am good. Can I tell you that my bathroom is almost done?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, like finally?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we've had the plumbing, the lighting was done yesterday. And so, all we need now is the towel bars-- oh, and the medicine cabinet and the mirror have to be hung, then we will be finished. But you could actually go in there and do everything a bathroom is supposed to do. Just you can't look in the mirror or hang anything up.

Melanie Avalon: That is a plus.

Gin Stephens: I know, it is very exciting.

Melanie Avalon: And then, is it just the yard that you're working on?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we're going to be working on a backyard remodel. That's going to be huge. Huh!

Melanie Avalon: To your tropical oasis with Paris?

Gin Stephens: Will see. Yeah, I'm excited. I can't wait. I miss my screened porch. I looked at my Facebook memories today, and one year ago today I was sitting on the floor in my old house with workmen. We were getting ready. It was under contract and we were getting ready to close at the end of the month. So, gosh, so many memories from that. But I haven't had a screened porch since we left that house.

Melanie Avalon: I didn't realize you had a screened porch.

Gin Stephens: At my other house? Oh yeah, I loved it. I sat out there all the time.

Melanie Avalon: I would not sit up there all the time. Actually, I would during the winter.

Gin Stephens: Mainly, I'm out there in the summer, in the spring, in the fall. When it's cold, no. But I like it the rest of the time.

Melanie Avalon: Speaking of the cold, guess what showed up at my door yesterday and made my life?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know, unless it was a chest freezer.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that would really make my life. You know I had Wim Hof on the show recently? It was a celebratory Wim Hof giftbox with the official-- Oh, it's so exciting. I had a galley of the book. So, I had a pre-release, not finalized version. So, it was like the hardcover actual version, like a Wim Hof towel that says, “Breathe mother F,” because he always says that, that's his phrase. And then, an ice cube tray and a motivational magnet. Oh, my goodness.

Gin Stephens: That's so fun!

Melanie Avalon: My day was made. So, I have a CGM update.

Gin Stephens: Oh, okay, how's that going?

Melanie Avalon: It's going well. I don't know-- today might be the last day. I'm actually interviewing Levels tomorrow. And then, I'm interviewing Nutrisense in a month, but I had a huge epiphany. So, we were talking just a second ago, you and I. I recently did the-- so InsideTracker, which is a David Sinclair affiliated company. They do a lot of genetic testing and blood testing and things like that. And they have a new InnerAge thing. They test, I don't know, it's like 12 key biomarkers to determine your “biological” or your real age. The good thing was that said I was younger than I am. So, I was like, “Okay, that's a plus.” But what was really interesting was I measured my blood sugar on it, and I guess just because of the timing of it-- and it matched my CGM for the time that I got it, but the timing of it, my blood sugar was 79, or something, which is my good number. Historically, I always feel really good in the high 70s.

But looking at my CGM over the past few weeks-- we talked about this last show, it fluctuates so much, even during the fast. If I hadn't been doing the CGM and I just done that one blood test, I would have been like, “Oh, I'm sure my blood sugar is always in the 70s then.” It made me realize getting a blood test and checking your blood sugar, you have no idea. You've no idea what that even means.

Gin Stephens: You don't know where you are on the curve exactly. It could be on the way up, on the way down. That could be your peak, that could be your valley. It's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: It is. I'm just looking back at all the blood tests I've done historically and how I would so judge myself almost based on what the blood sugar was. Now, I've realized literally, depending on which minute I went in, it could have been--

Gin Stephens: I mean, 10 points higher. Yeah, it's crazy. That was the most eye-opening thing for me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And then, the other thing was, how high would your blood sugar go after meals? After your curvy meals?

Gin Stephens: Gosh, I'm trying to remember. It's been over a month. I don't know, like 130 normally? That’s how it would go.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because I've been in 120s.

Gin Stephens: 120s, 130. One time, it went up a little higher than that, but I don't think it ever went out of the 130s. I don't know. I don't know where that data. I had it somewhere downloaded, but--

Melanie Avalon: Was it just through the FreeStyle Libre app or was it--?

Gin Stephens: It was, but then I found a website that you could sync it with. Let me see, I might have some notes.

Melanie Avalon: While you're looking, the interesting thing that I realized was eating lower carb meals or even fruit meals, my blood sugar, it would spike, but it would go like 110, highest like 120 and then pretty quickly go down, and then it would go down too far. But last night, I ate way more carbs than normal and, oh my goodness, it went up to like 200 something.

Gin Stephens: Oh my gosh. Okay, see, I found some of my data. This is just some very early data that I-- I went up to 135 one time. But normally, like after dinner, I would go up like 112. After pasta, I went up to 121.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because the highest I would really ever go when eating my normal foods was 120. But it would normally go to 110-ish, between 110 and 120.

Gin Stephens: Here's some data that I had. I had two pieces of toast and two eggs on top, and my blood glucose went up to 109 after two pieces of toast with eggs.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so last night, I ate some-- it's like Rice Krispies but there's no additives or anything like that. And it shot up to 200.

Gin Stephens: Wow, yeah, I never saw anything above-- Really, maybe 140 at one time. I never saw anything above, and I was like, “Oh my God, what's happened?”

Melanie Avalon: 217!

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I wish I had all that data. Even after the muffins, it didn't go up all that much.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it never really dropped hypoglycemic, did you, after meals?

Gin Stephens: No, not after meals. In the middle of the night, it got down in the tiny little red. I can't remember what the boundary was. Was it, like 69 was the boundary? It turns red. I can't remember. But I got down there just a couple times. But mostly it was not there.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, mine would always draw pretty well, although I was talking with Levels about it and they said a few things. And I'm excited because I'm interviewing them tomorrow, so I have so many questions for them. But they said that, A, if you sleep on the sensor, that can cut off circulation, like if it's on your arm, so that can lead to false like--

Gin Stephens: The middle of the night readings can be weird.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it could be that. And then, he also said that they never really test like historically people's blood sugar levels all night. So, we don't have a lot of data in general about what's normal for--

Gin Stephens: That's a good point.

Melanie Avalon: --nighttime, so yeah. Oh, and for listeners. A CGM is a continuous glucose monitor. I've just assumed that everybody knows what you're talking about. But it's basically a little thing that you put on your skin and it measures your-- What is it, interstitial fluid? To give you a sense of your blood sugar levels throughout the day constantly.

Gin Stephens: And it really is fascinating data and I really hope that it becomes more mainstream for people to use as a preventative health measure. It's not a trinket, it's not a fun toy. It's not something like, “Oh, look at this!” It's something that is powerful data. Yes, it's fun to see, it's interesting to see, but it's powerful data about how your body responds to these foods. And so, it can really make a difference when you choose. You're probably not going to choose that Rice Krispy thing again, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no.

Gin Stephens: For me, though, when my blood glucose went up to 135, that was after coconut water, which really surprised me. I mean, I love coconut water.

Melanie Avalon: It's really interesting. It did make me feel better though about the fruit because I was stressing about the fruit. But now it's like, “Oh, well, compared to that.” So, maybe it was a good thing to experience.

Gin Stephens: I made sure to eat the way I normally eat when I was using it. I didn't test things in isolation. When I had the toast with eggs, that's how I would normally have it because I wanted to get a picture of how it looked with my normal day. My normal day really made me happy. My normal day, my blood glucose is within a tight little range and it goes up, but then it goes down. And it's a nice little gentle-- It looked good. It made me feel really good about it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm still a little bit sad because it seems that if I do my keto-ish like approach, it's pretty good, and the Levels app gives me a good metabolic score and it stays within the target range, but I would still in general like it like a little bit lower and then I would also like to be eating more fruit, but goals. The good thing is because it comes in two weeks cycles, the sensors, and I have Levels send me too. So, I have another one I can use. I have to try out Nutrisense and then Levels said they're going to start trialing other brand. So, I think I'll probably trial that as well. So, I think I have like-- what is that? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, that's like 6 more weeks' worth of sensors that I can potentially play with. And then, I'm going to be like never again, not really.

Gin Stephens: It's just so interesting. I really think that people who are concerned about long-term health, before you start having prediabetes, that's when you would know, you could really dial in what works for you and then prevent. If health insurance companies were smart, they would let everybody have a trial of these to see what foods-- anyone who's interested. Maybe not everybody, not everybody cares. But for anyone who did, it shouldn't be so hard to get them. They should pay you to do them. It should be like, “We'll give you $250 if you wear this for two weeks and learn from your data.” I mean that would be a wellness strategy for these insurance companies and it would prevent them from paying out thousands of dollars later for sickness. Anyway, I'm not in charge of that. Nobody has to be!

Melanie Avalon: So, listeners, stay tuned, though, because I will be having two interviews with both companies, and I'll probably have discounts or some sort of offer. So, exciting! Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes. We have some listener feedback, which is answer to "Paige’s Flexibility Question From 173," and it's from Miranda. She says, “Hello, Gin and Melanie. I've been listening to your podcast for two years now and I love all the great information you have to offer and your willingness to entertain so many questions from your listeners. I'm happy to be part of such a valued community. I'm just getting caught up on some older podcasts and have some answers for a question you had from Paige from Australia in episode 173 - does IF increase your flexibility? You weren't able to fully answer this, and I am happy to fill in some blanks for you.

I have been practicing yin yoga for over 10 years and teaching it for over six years. Yin yoga is a style of yoga that focuses on purposefully stressing our connective tissue to increase elasticity and ease of movement. It is thought to have been discovered by monks thousands of years ago to help them sit more comfortably during hours of meditation. Connective tissues are the plastic-like tissues in the body, the fascia, ligaments, tendons, etc., that wrap around and connect muscles and bones. And now, they're discovering it runs like a web through muscle and bone. With stress, injury, dehydration, and life, the connective tissue gets tangled, sticky, and begins to shrink wrap our bodies restricting movement. In order to "untangle" and rehydrate that connective tissue, it needs to be purposely stressed. This is what we do in yin yoga. Stressing muscle is done through resistance movement, with or without weight. We're all very familiar with this.

Stressing connective tissue requires consistent tension and/or compression. Usually, both are happening concurrently with minimal muscular effort for a period of time, usually four to six minutes. It takes an average of two to three minutes for the muscles in the area to let go so that the stress can be focused on the connective tissue. During this time, the area being stressed sends a message out, “here's where the work needs to be done.” And the fibroblasts know where to go to start untangling those bunched and knotted-up collagen and elastin fibers and start laying them out in nice, neat, stretchy layers.” And then she adds a little note, this is a very simplified explanation. “This works similarly to acupuncture, but on a wider scale and not literally a pinpoint. Think of a big knotted-up ball of yarn. You have both loose ends in hand, but when you pull, they don't go far. If you take the time, you can untangle the ball of yarn and then layer it back and forth into a nice, neat skein. Now, when you pull on the loose ends, you can pull for miles.

The answer to Paige’s question is twofold. First, Melanie, you are on the right track looking for studies about the effects on cartilage. And Gin, you were partway there when talking about being as flexible at 50 as you were when you were a teen dancer. I believe a lot of that can be attributed to IF and increased autophagy. When our bodies have the time, as they do with IF, they get to go around and clean up the broken-down proteins, i.e., collagen and elastin, which tends to get deprioritized as we age. So, you have less tangled messes that can get taken care of without a practice like yin yoga or acupuncture, although either or both would still be very beneficial.

The second part of the answer, and what I think Paige is experiencing as she was pretty recent in her IF journey, is looking at our flexibility and asking, ‘What's stopping us?’ That answer is either tension or compression or a combination. It's different for all of us in different positions or poses. An easy way to experience this is to stand up, bend over, and try to touch your toes. Can you do it? If not, what's stopping you? Is it the tight sensation you feel in your lower back or in your hamstrings or calves? That's tension. That can be worked through over time with consistent practice. Are you able to touch your toes? Yes. Can you fold completely in half with your head between your knees, your knees on your ears? Why not, what's stopping you? Now, you're likely experiencing compression.

Compression comes in three major forms. Soft, medium, and hard. Soft compression is how it sounds, soft tissue meeting soft tissues, big fat. Using the same example as above, envision an obese person doing the same exercise. Let's pretend they don't have too much tension stopping them from doing that forward fold. They will likely be stopped by the compression of their belly pressing against their thighs. They may still be able to touch their toes or the floor because that can somewhat displace and make space for that to happen. With IF, as we lose this thigh and belly fat, we can increase flexibility. This position in particular will feel a little more comfortable, at least from the compression side of things. And we may start to meet our tension threshold in our lower back and our hamstrings now that we have more flexibility/range of motion. This sensation will likely change as our bodies change.”

Melanie Avalon: Can I interject really quick? So, is she saying that literally losing the weight, it's like a physical barrier that's creating?

Gin Stephens: Yes. When I was obese, I couldn't reach down and paint my toenails. My belly got in the way. 100%.

Melanie Avalon: That is so interesting. I mean, it makes complete sense. I just never really thought about it that way.

Gin Stephens: Yep, I've been there. It's true. I had to sit differently. I couldn't sit cross-legged. And there are a lot of ways I couldn't move. I mean shaving your legs, things like that just were so different to do. It's hard to even remember.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Putting on shoes, all those things. But, yeah, and now I appreciate being able to just do whatever, use my body however I want to. All right, back to her comments. “Medium compression is interesting and what we often experience in our joints. This is a bone-flesh-bone sandwich. Try sitting on the floor cross-legged style. Do you feel a pinching in your leg creases? This is medium compression. It often feels pinchy. If that position feels completely comfortable to you, great.” It does, by the way, I can sit like that. Can you sit cross-legged comfortably, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Pretty sure.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I do all the time. “But I'm sure you've experienced the same sensation in other positions at some point in time. Medium compression often doesn't change in people unless they have “fat show” or “deposits” around the tissues of the joints, most likely in someone more obese. Again, as those fat stores are being used for energy and decreasing in size, there is more space for movement, which equals more flexibility. IF for the win again.

And finally, hard compression. This is bone-to-bone compression. Think of trying to do side splits. Many people can do front to back splits.” Yep, that's the only kind I could do. “But several of those still cannot do side splits.” Yep, I could not do those ever. “Why? Hard compression. They can spread their feet from side to side, have zero tension in their inner thighs, slide down and down, close to the ground and then stuck. What's stopping them? Their hip sockets. The head and neck of their femur fitting into the cup of their pelvis does not have the optimal sizes and angles to make this happen. In yin, we say this person doesn't have skeletal permission to go any further. There is no amount of yoga or stretching that will make this happen for them. Even IF will not change this. This is where we learn to accept our limitations. So, yes, IF can increase your flexibility and I hope this will help people have a little better understanding of their functional anatomy.

If you notice changes in flexibility and increases in the range of motion in your body, please be aware that it's critical to also strengthen the muscles in these areas to prevent injury. We need to have the strength to support the range of motion. Of course, I recommend yoga for this, more flow styles as they strengthen and lengthen muscles at the same time. If you do resistance training, it's very important that you have a great stretching routine on your rest days or at the end of your workouts. Try to hold your stretches with minimal muscular effort for three to four minutes instead of the likely 20 to 30 seconds you're used to. Thank you for listening to this long answer. But I know how much you both dig into research and I didn't want to sell you short.” That was great. Thank you, Miranda.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I learned so much. Who knew?

Gin Stephens: I did not know.

Melanie Avalon: I liked her part about this-- What did she say about the skeletal--?

Gin Stephens: Limitations. It's true. Yeah. I was never going to be able to do a side split no matter how hard I tries.

Melanie Avalon: It's good to know that that was not in the cards. Yeah, good to know that with IF and the weight loss and everything, that it can definitely affect our flexibility. All right, shall we move on to our questions?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off. We have a question from Katie. The subject is, “Second try has been brutal.” And Katie says, “I sometimes wonder if my metabolism is irreparably damaged. I'm so discouraged and ready to give up and regain, no pun intended, that unfortunate fat girl mindset that Gin has often described as accepting that you're just going to get fatter and fatter.”

Gin Stephens: I want to interject there. I felt that way for a time. So, for people who haven't heard me say that, there was a time in my life I gave up, and it was sometime around 2012 to 2014 when I just got bigger and bigger, no matter what I did, I couldn't stick to anything. And I just said, “You know what? This is just me. I'm going to be in this big body.” I gave up. But not forever. I didn't give up forever. Thank goodness. All right. Back to you, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: That's so surreal to me. Till 2014, you were still--?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, 2014 is when I was 210 pounds.

Melanie Avalon: I know we talked about this a lot but the reason that's so mind blowing to me is that-- because I so associate us meeting the first time that I moved to Atlanta, and I moved to Atlanta first time in 2014.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we didn't meet till 2017.

Melanie Avalon: Was it '17?

Gin Stephens: It was '17. It was early in 17 because the podcasts-- and my book had come out already by the time we met. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I guess it was like the tail end of when I was in Atlanta the first time but it's just really surreal to me that time in Atlanta the first time around seems so short. So, the fact that all of that transformation happened all during when I was in Atlanta, and we still met when I was in Atlanta--like, that's a really quick turnaround all things considered.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it really was because I really just was like, “This is it. This is going to happen.” And it did. Yeah, it was. I'm really, really, really proud of that. Looking back, it's hard to remember, I was just talking about how hard it was to paint my toenails and bend around and move. But you just feel hopeless because you've tried so hard. I tried so hard. I talk about this a lot for people who listen to intermittent fasting stories. This theme comes up again and again. And that's my other podcast, Intermittent Fasting Stories, for people who have not listened to that one. But people over and over share how they were successful in so many areas of their life, good at things, smart, well educated, but could not get a handle on the weight. It's really frustrating.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, inspiring, though. Very inspiring.

Gin Stephens: It is, but it's not you, it's biology, it's your body. I wrote this in Fast. Feast. Repeat. It's not that you have failed diets, diets failed you.

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Melanie Avalon: So, back to our question. She says, “I don't want to be back in that place, but I'm starting to feel like I don't have a choice. Not to say bad things about body positivity, but I don't feel positive or healthy in the current permutation of my body, no matter how much I try to regurgitate the mantras of health at all sizes, and it's the size of your heart that matters, not the size of your waist. Tell that to an obese person with an enlarged heart. Originally, I started IF 16:8 in 2017. It worked marvelously. I lost 30 pounds in less than two months without even really thinking about it. I took it very naturally. I figured I'd found the magic formula that would finally work for me after literal decades of failed diets. Naturally, I plateaued but stuck with the process. My doctor even told me how proud she was of me.

Then, my personal life kind of imploded. Last year, my father passed away less than two years after my mother did. Plus, the stress of an estate sale, the holidays, putting the house on the market, and trying to find a place to live. Needless to say, my discipline with food went straight down the toilet. I regained most of the weight I had lost.

Fast forward a year, I'm finally mostly settled. I'm in a new house, I have a decent nest egg. I'm generally in a good place emotionally. For once in my life, I feel fairly secure. I decided it was time to start fasting again. I thought I could slip right back in no problem since the first time it came naturally and worked marvelously. Boy, was I wrong. I've been at it about a month and the only way I can describe it is agonizing. Just as agonizing as all the other diets I did in the past and eventually failed it. It's 100% stagnation and frustration. Before, I ate whatever, and the weight dropped off. Now, no matter what I eat, it stays put. Before, it was easy for me to wait until 2 or 3 PM to eat and stop at 10 or 11. Now, I feel hungry all the time, regardless of how nutritious my meals are. I know, I know. I can already hear you both saying it's only been a month, but what a terrible month it has been, especially contrasted with how easily I fell into it before. What is happening?

I'm 39, so it's a little early for menopause, though it's not totally out of question. I don't have any other symptoms of early menopause though. Does my body need longer to recalibrate the second time or something? I thought once your body learned to be fat-adapted, it remembered. That seems to not be the case with me. Is this a common problem? Help. I love you guys so much. I'm a fan of this podcast and your individual podcast too. Thank you for all your help and advice.” And then, I sent her an email and I asked her what she was eating. She said, “It depends on the day. Sometimes, it's an Impossible Whopper with onion rings. Sometimes it's nutritious Poke Bowl filled with vegetables, beans, and tofu. Sometimes, it's Taco Bell. Sometimes, it's [unintelligible [00:32:42] stir fry with garlic, onions, peppers, snap peas, spinach, mushrooms, and baby corn. Sometimes, it's protein shakes and bars, which I don't necessarily think are the best. But I found that if I have them around, I will have fewer Burger King and Taco Bell days. I also started adding maca root to my protein shakes as suggested by Anna Cabeca on your show, since I also have hormone balance and energy issues. Katie.”

Gin Stephens: That’s a lot. And I see that the shift happened when you had the very stressful time of your life. You were having a lot of trouble in your personal life. Your father passed away, you recently had lost your mother, lot of stress, the holidays. And then, we've had a pandemic. So, I don't want to make light of that. But even people who did not have all the other stresses that you're going through, people have had trouble this year just because of the stress that the pandemic and all of that-- I mean, even if you had been safe at home and you haven't had any thing that is really gone wrong for you, still, the word 'pandemic,' the way that everything is set uncertain, watching the news, it has been a terribly, terribly stressful year. So, I want you to not discount all of that. The fact that it seems like you're wanting to eat, it's very likely to have something to do with the stress response, like you are just in-- you're craving food early in the day. You can't wait till 2 or 3 to eat. You’re also only a month in, which I know you said that we would say, but it is true. So, think about this. A lot of stress. You've been through a lot. You're hungry, hungry, hungry. You're fighting with it, and it's only a month in.

So, I want you to think back to when you first started in 2017. I bet you approached it with a different kind of mindset. I bet you were just trying it, you were excited, you were eased in, you let it unfold. You felt great. But right now, it feels like you're starting in a different mental place. I would encourage you if you don't have Fast. Feast. Repeat., get it. If you do have it or once you get it flip to the Mindset chapter. That is a really, really important chapter that I think could make a difference for you. Start working on changing yourself talk.

You may also want to kind of ease back a little bit. It sounds like you're really trying. Sometimes, when you try, try, try that makes it actually even harder. Maybe you're forgetting that it was a little challenging at the beginning when you first started, and you've forgotten what it was like in 2017. And you're expecting to just all of a sudden be able to wait till 2 or 3, when really, maybe it took you a while. I also want you to really examine your fast and make sure you're fasting completely clean. You didn't mention that at all. You also said you started intermittent fasting in 2017. That was a long time ago. That was before-- my guidelines for the clean fast have certainly evolved, the more I've learned and the more people I have worked with over the years since 2017. So, I really want you to examine what you're drinking. Are you putting lemon in your water? Are you putting a little splash of something in your coffee or sweeteners? That sort of thing. Is it having a little apple cider vinegar? Really, really think to anything that you're having. Stick to plain water, no flavors, nothing added. Sparkling water, no flavors, nothing added. Black coffee, plain tea, avoid all those fancy herbal teas with the fancy names. Just stick to tea, actual tea, and see if that helps.

Instead of forcing yourself to wait till 2 or 3, maybe say, “Alright, I'm going to open at noon. And I'm going to have a high-quality lunch. And then later, I'm going to have a high-quality dinner.” And you could probably fit in a six-hour window with a lunch and a dinner that are not giant lunch, giant dinner, but a satisfying lunch, satisfying dinner, within six hours. If you're white knuckling it, I want you to switch things up and try them, do different things, and see until it feels good again.

Also, work to de-stress. Anything that makes you feel good and helps you relax, add those things in, whether it's a hot bath, a sauna, working out, reading a book, anything. Listening to music, anything that helps you de-stress and feel better. What would you say, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think you said a lot of great things. I recently interviewed the Caltons, they wrote a book called Rebuild Your Bones. It's about osteoporosis and bone health. But it's really about the role of micronutrients in our health and how our modern diets, it's hard to supply enough nutrients and how things like stress, really, really deplete a lot of our nutrients and our bodies aren't getting all the nutrients they need. It's very likely that we won't ever feel satisfied or full. And you went through such, such an intense stressful period that I feel probably when you first started IF, it was working for you, there wasn't this whole stress aspect. And then, this is what Gin was talking about, going through that really, really stressful time, it can really, really deplete a lot of nutrients in our body can be really taxing on our body and have a lasting effect. And I think when a lot of us go through that, it can make everything harder, including fasting, including adhering to a diet and everything.

And I say that to encourage you because I think focusing on nutrition could be really, really huge. Originally, she didn't say what she was eating, and if we just had that question without knowing what she was eating-- because you were saying that when you first did IF, you ate whatever you wanted, and the weight just dropped off. And now, it doesn't seem to matter how nutritious your meals are. What I'm wondering is because just hearing your meals, it sounds like you do alternate between meals that are potentially more on the nutritious side, like whole foods based meals, and then a lot of fast food. While a lot of people can do IF and eat fast food and see weight loss and experience the benefits, I still think food choices are really, really huge. So, I think it can be hard to know if you're doing well regardless of what you're eating, if you're not eating a certain way for a long enough period of time. So, what I mean by that is, say one day you eat more on the nutritious side. But then, the next day, it's more fast food and then it's back and forth.

Unless you're eating really nutritious meals for a longer period of time, it might be hard to know if you really are feeling this way regardless of what you eat. If you're open to not eating the fast food and focusing more on like whole foods-- and when I say whole foods, I don't mean store, I mean whole foods, especially that the foods that really appeal to you and that are really high in nutrition. I would give that a try. I would almost say in the situation that it might even be better if you're open to it. If you're really struggling with hunger, I would almost say try a spiel of-- because what windows she's doing?

Gin Stephens: She didn't say. She said she's having a hard time getting to 2 or 3, which is why I suggest, don't force it, if you're not feeling good yet. Even though before you eat-- but right now is different.

Melanie Avalon: It was easy for me to wait until 2 or 3 and stop at 10 or 11. So, she was eating like an eight-hour window from 2 to 10. So, I would almost suggest-- I don't know why I say almost. I would actually suggest that you maybe consider trying a not a fasting approach right now and actually just a food approach and eat when you're hungry, but eat whole foods and see if you can get more in touch with your satiety signals and how you're reacting to food without the fast food and things like that that might be hacking your cravings and making you want more. And then, after cleaning that up for a little bit, then move into the eating window and you might find that it's a lot easier to have a fasting window. I just really think the food choices are really huge. I think a lot of people think that when they do IF that it means they can eat whatever they want during the window. And that doesn't always work, especially if it's meals that are not that nutritionally supportive.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I have a section in Fast. Feast. Repeat. about the phrase, “Eat whatever you want” and that people misunderstand it. When we say eat whatever you want, we mean eat whatever you want. We're not going to say this is the style you must eat to do intermittent fasting. But it doesn't mean eat whatever you want! Like, often use the analogy, you're a college freshman with your first meal plan and mom's not there. That happens for a lot of people. They've been careful eaters and then they start intermittent fasting, that is portrayed as eat whatever you want and then they throw all the other out the window. I was already eating like a college freshman before I started intermittent fasting. I did not have good nutritional habits. Over time, my tastes did change. I've talked about that a lot. But most of us are going to find, we feel better when we eat nutritious foods. That's just a fact and that's what our bodies need. So, really keep in mind that, yes, you can eat whatever you want, but that's not permission to eat whatever you want.

Melanie Avalon: Few other things, she says that she has protein shakes and bars, which she doesn't think are the best. But if she has them, she's less likely to eat Burger King or Taco Bell. What other foods could you keep on hand, whole foods that would also if you eat them, make you less likely to eat Burger King or Taco Bell? You're the one in control, you're the one in charge here, you're the one choosing what you want to buy what you keep in your house what you have access to. So, I'm sure there are foods you can find that you do think are the best and that you can keep on hand and that you could eat and have fewer of the fast-food days. Also, if you're drinking protein shakes, that's something actually, for example, that I would suggest switching that to whole foods protein. Instead of a protein shake, have chicken breast or steak or something because it's going to be much more satiating. I don't see really any reason to, especially if you're struggling to lose weight, to make all of these calories so easily assimilated.

Gin Stephens: Can I tell you what I found recently that has been just amazing for opening my window? I don't have an official affiliate relationship with them, although I'd love to. Hello, Daily Harvest, send me an email. Daily Harvest, I've been using them after I saw several people recommend them. And, yes, gin@intermittentfastingstories.com, Daily Harvest, I would love to hear from you. But I can't figure out how to contact them because I would love to have them sponsor my podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, what did they do?

Gin Stephens: They have food, it is-- I mean, I know it's not all-- it's a lot of grain in there, some grain, not all grains, but it's some things you probably wouldn't eat, but it's whole foods and it comes frozen. And they have bowls, and they have flat-breads, and they have smoothies, but the ingredients list is so clean and good.

Melanie Avalon: Are they plant based?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: I think they might have emailed us before.

Gin Stephens: Well, see if you could find that email because I just found them as a person. Gin Stephens, the person. And I have been opening my window every single day with one of their soups or one of their bowls. My husband and I will split one of their smoothies after dinner as a dessert. They don't work well for me on an empty stomach, but they work great as a dessert. We'll just share one. They are so good. If you go to ginstephens.com on the Favorite Things tab, I do have a link there that you can use to save money. It's not official, like sponsorship or anything. It's just like any person could share their link. That's what I'm doing. But it's on the Favorite Things tab at ginstephens.com. But it's also really, really tasty, and I'm not plant based. So, I might have one of their bowls and it might have lentils in there plus a ton of veggies, maybe kale. But it's so quick, you can just pop it in the microwave.

I'm going to cook a big dinner later and I cook it and prepare it, but I don't want to also fuss around with something to open my window. So, their lentil bowl with all the veggies that I can pop in the microwave, maybe I'll throw a little sour cream on there. Yes, that flavor profile that would do well with some sour cream. And I am just so satisfied. Instead of grabbing the cheese and crackers again, I'm having this really nutritious food. So, I'm just a fan. I'm really excited and recommend it. The food is so good. And my husband loves it, I love it. And it's quick. See, that's the thing. I'm busy, I'm working during the day and then I'm going to cook a full meal later for dinner, I don't also really have the time to-- and I was finding myself always grabbing broccoli and hummus or cheese and crackers. And I was in a rut just because I could grab that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's a great suggestion. I would really focus on the food choices if it was me.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think that's good advice. All right. We have a question from Amanda. Amanda says, “I started listening to the podcast last week on episode 41 now. I remember you mentioned berberine and I want to know if I can still take it without a meal because I've tried to do one or two 40-hour fast a week. Bottle says once daily with meal or as directed by a healthcare professional. I typically have a window later in the day for regular days, just not sure about taking it on 40-hour fast days. I just bought it today. So, I want to know the best way to take it before I start. I've been intermittent fasting since February of 2020.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, berberine. So, this would actually be a really good situation to have a CGM to see how you react to berberine during the fast. So, for listeners berberine is-- Well, okay. So, there's a drug called metformin that a lot of listeners are probably familiar with. It's often prescribed for diabetes, but it can have really remarkable effects on lowering blood glucose levels, lowering HbA1c, discouraging the liver from producing glucose, things like that. Oh, and activating ANPK, which is one of the main genes that we activate during fasting that has a lot of the beneficial effects of fasting.

So, the reason I say all that is berberine is a natural plant compound that has been found in studies to have very comparable effects to metformin without a lot of the potential side effects of the pharmaceutical. Studies have found that by taking berberine, that it can decrease insulin resistance, just in general can make the insulin in your body be more effective. It can help your cells break down sugars, so use sugar more effectively.

Like I said, it does decrease sugar production in the liver, and I mentioned this before, but one of the most mind-blowing things to me is that in diabetes, the majority of the elevated blood sugar is actually not coming from the diet, it's coming from the liver producing sugar. Do, berberine can interfere with that process, and it might actually even support beneficial gut bacteria, which is really interesting. So, point being, I actually ordered some berberine after doing all this research. It's usually suggested that you take it right before meals, like three times a day. I assume you could take it during that long fast but my only concern would be, depending on how you're reacting to it-- Did she say she started taking it already?

Gin Stephens: No, she wanted to wait.

Melanie Avalon: And she's going to do a 40-hour fast. You might find-- if your blood sugar is already low, on that long fast, the only thing I would be worried about would be if it dropped you too low and then you got symptoms of hypoglycemia. So, that would be something that you'd have to experiment with.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I probably would just follow the directions of the bottle and not try to take it in a long fast. I just wouldn't. I would just take it once a day with the meal, like it says, or if you're not having a meal, don't take it.

Melanie Avalon: If you are measuring your blood sugar-- although we just talked to the beginning about how that might be all over the place. But that might be a situation where if you're long into your fast and you measure your blood sugar, and it's good, I probably wouldn't take berberine at that moment because probably just going to drop it lower. On the flip side, if you're long into your fast and your blood sugar's high, then you might want to take it and see what happens. I'm really excited now because I just ordered some and I want to see how it affects my CGM.

Gin Stephens: Well, definitely share that after you've tried it for a while and let us know what happens.

Melanie Avalon: I will. I do take oftentimes Keto Before 6, which is my Quicksilver Scientific, and it has a lot of ANPK activators. So, I just mentioned that ANPK is genetic pathways that are activated while we're fasting and is responsible for a lot of the benefits of fasting. And so Keto Before 6 contains-- it's different compounds that all activate ANPK. So, it contains berberine. It also has quercetin and I think resveratrol and milk thistle and a few other things. I've been taking a little bit of berberine via that, but I haven't taken like just berberine. So, I have to report back. But I'm a fan of the concept of berberine. I'm not a fan of most pharmaceuticals, but I don't really know how I feel about metformin. I'm very intrigued by metformin. I think if I ever were to experiment with a pharmaceutical, I would experiment with metformin out of curiosity.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because a lot of people just take it for health benefits.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I know David Sinclair talks about it a lot. Peter Attia, I think, talks about it. It's one pharmaceutical that often comes up in discussion on a lot of the podcasts that I listened to about the potential benefits. Some people will pretty much take it for life, kind of like aspirin. It doesn't do the same thing as aspirin but as far as “pharmaceuticals” that potentially might have more health benefits than not.

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We have a question from Heather. Subject is "Transition Period." And Heather says, “Hi, guys. I just started IF five days ago. I'm currently doing a six-hour eating window. My husband and I decided to start a healthier lifestyle and we each chose our own method. He is counting calories and I am attempting IF. I've absolutely loved IF so far. I'm the type of person that has in the past claimed to need food every 10 minutes. I truly didn't know that I would be able to maintain this lifestyle for more than one hour. I know, I'm crazy. Anyway, this week has been wonderful. I feel more energy throughout the day. I've not felt deprived at all, and I am enjoying my food so much more than I did when I was eating all day. I'm currently going through your podcast from the beginning and I'm on episode 11.” I hear you meant 11, that’s so long time ago.

Gin Stephens: I'm sorry if we gave bad advice on episode 11.

Melanie Avalon: Sometime, I'm going to have to go back and listen to just like a random episode from that time period. I might do that. She says, “I hear you mentioned the transition phase or period, and I'm curious how long that usually lasts. I've had moments in my fasting period where I'm tempted to reach for food out of sheer habit or quick moments where I feel hungry because my body is used to eating very often. Does this go away? I thought I would add that I've only lost about one pound so far. I would have been discouraged by this if it were not for your podcast. I'm trusting the method and I'm waiting for more results. Thanks so much.” All right.

Gin Stephens: All right, Heather is on day five. So, Heather, I hope that you fast forward to this new episode and hear it now. I really don't want you to expect any weight loss in the first 28 days. That's what I've got in my 28-Day FAST Start of Fast. Feast. Repeat. So, a pound and five days is actually really good. Remember, also, I don't want you to weigh every day and think of the fluctuations. I mean I do want you to weigh every day, but I don't want you to get caught up on the daily fluctuations. I want you to weigh daily and then once a week, calculate your weekly average. So, if you're on day five, you don't even have a week yet to have a weekly average. And, of course, I don't want you to do that till after your first 28 days.

So, on day 29, I'd like you to weigh again, and then weigh daily and once a week, calculate your weekly average because really, it's only the overall trend that matters. So, as far as the adjustment period, that really varies for everybody. Bert Herring talks in his book about three weeks. Three weeks to adjust. And I think that is actually overly optimistic. And maybe now with how everyone seems to have metabolic syndrome, prediabetes, people are just not in great shape starting out. I sure wasn't. When I started out, I wasn't in great shape, physically, I was obese. And so, three weeks is a little bit optimistic. So really, some people find it takes as long as 8 weeks, 12 weeks even, depending on you and your body, to really feel like you're starting to adjust to intermittent fasting.

And if someone's been obese or overweight for a long time, it can take even longer. A lot of that has to do with what your fasting insulin level is, and you're not going to know what that is unless you've had a test, and most people haven't. Melanie, someone was talking recently in the Facebook groups about trying to get a fasting insulin test, and her doctor's like, “That's not what you mean. You want to get a blood glucose test.” And she's like, “No, I want fasting insulin,” he's like, “No,” [gasps] And the doctor could not understand why someone would want a fasting insulin test, or couldn't figure out how to write it on the forum, didn't know what she was talking about. I'm not saying that to say bad things about doctors, because there's a lot of doctors who are using them and understand them and all of that. So, you probably don't have your fasting insulin levels. But if your fasting insulin levels are high, it's going to take time for that to come down and that's part of your body's adjustment before you'll see the benefits of fasting.

Long story short, we really could say three to eight weeks for the adjustment period, but it really can vary wildly. If you were someone who was eating keto prior to starting intermittent fasting, your body may already be fat adapted, and so your adjustment period might be very brief. I mentioned before on the podcast, in 2014, when I finally was able to start intermittent fasting and finally stick to it for the first time ever, I had been trying keto that whole summer, failing at keto. I mean I was doing it, I didn't lose any weight. I did it 100%, didn't lose a single pound. Now, I know that's not how my body feels best. But I probably became fat adapted, and I was definitely in ketosis. Wasn't losing body fat, probably because I was eating a lot. Eating a lot of fat, not having any need to tap into my body fat. But as soon as I switched to intermittent fasting and added that carbs, I felt immediately better, and I started losing weight right away. I didn't have to have an adjustment period. So, all that to be said, it really, really varies.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's great. I think you covered it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's going to be months before Heather gets to this episode if she's listening from episode 11.

Melanie Avalon: Good times. Okie-dokie. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode187. Those show notes we'll have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. You can join our Facebook groups. I have IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life. Are we plugging your new Facebook group, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I do have a new Facebook group if anyone is interested in things outside of intermittent fasting because I talked about that I've started a third podcast. We've actually recorded episode 0, which is our trailer episode and also episode 1. The Facebook group is Life Lessons with Gin and Sheri. The podcast will come out-- we're hoping for Episode 1, December 2nd is our target release date. And our first episode is all about sleep.

Melanie Avalon: I just recorded two back-to-back part one and part two episodes again with Dr. Kirk Parsley, listener Q&A on sleep and both of them are almost three hours.

Gin Stephens: We talk about Dr. Kirk Parsley and his Sleep Remedy on the podcast, but we also talk about the sleep chronotypes. You and I've talked about that before, right? I'm a lion, you're a--

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. What was it, a wolf or something?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think you're a wolf. Sheri is also a wolf, my friend Sheri. Late at night, yeah, Sheri’s a wolf. My cohost on the other podcast is a wolf, just like you. That'll be coming out December 2nd. The reason we decided to start with sleep is because we asked people what they were interested and hearing and that came up over and over. People are struggling with sleep.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I emailed the first heart one episode to my assistant and it was three hours. She was like, “I didn't realize there was so much to know about sleep.” And I was like, “This is just part one. There's a part two coming.” There's so many questions. There's so much. That was one of the good takeaways. Because so many people will say that we all are naturally early birds, and I asked him about that, and he was like, it's not really debated in the scientific literature about there being different circadian rhythms for people.

Gin Stephens: It's known that it's true, right? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He was like, it's not really controversial. And I was like, "Oh, okay. Then, why is everybody saying that we're all early birds."

Gin Stephens: I know. The early birds started that. People who are one way, really, really assume that everyone else should be like that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Kind of like with food and diet and everything.

Gin Stephens: I mean, I really think they're like, “Well, I wake up really early, and I feel great and I get a lot done. So, you should do that, too. And if you can't, you must be super lazy.” And that's how these things get started. And, no, it's not that you're super lazy or even lazy at all. You just have a different rhythm. You're more productive later in the day, and you could feel like a loser and a failure because you're fighting against your body.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. 100%. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. And I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. I look forward to it.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Gin Stephens: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Nov 08

Episode 186: Wearing A Continuous Glucose Monitor, Calories In Calories Out, Wearable Weights, The Last 5 Pounds, Body Types And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 186 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

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SHOW NOTES

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Life Lessons with Gin and Sheri

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Listener Q&A: Samantha - Welcome to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast

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The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #44- Cyrus Khambatta, PHD and Robby Barbaro, MPH

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #61 - Dr. Cate Shanahan

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FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 186 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then, this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends. Are you struggling to lose weight despite fasting clean? Maybe you're even making healthy food choices, fasting more, shortening your eating window, ramping up your exercise, and yet the weight won't budge? Well, we actually just found a major reason for why that may be.

As it turns out, there are compounds in our environment called endocrine disruptors. Meaning, they mess with your hormones. And studies show that a lot of these endocrine disruptors are actually obesogens, meaning they literally make you gain weight. They also make it hard to lose weight. These toxic obesogens are naturally stored in fat. So, when they enter your body, your body creates fat to store them and to protect you. Once they're in that fat, they then changed the genes in your fat stores so that you are more likely to store more fat and less likely to burn it. They can also affect your insulin signaling and boost your appetite so you want to eat more and store more fat. And most of us are actually exposed to these obesogenic endocrine disruptors daily in our skincare and makeup. That is actually one of the largest sources of these compounds.

Yep. As it turns out, when you're washing your face, putting on makeup, using lotion, or even putting on sunscreen, you are likely putting one up to 1300 compounds banned in Europe for their toxicity and obesity causing potential, but they're completely fine for use in US skincare. When you put them on your skin, you're making it that much harder to burn fat, and that much easier to store fat. So, if you're struggling to lose weight, you definitely, definitely want to clean up your skincare, ASAP.

You can do that easily with a company called Beautycounter. They make safe skincare and makeup products that are extensively tested to be free of endocrine disrupters, obesogens, and other toxic compounds. They are truly safe and supportive of your health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd also like exclusive discounts, giveaways, and the latest on the science of skincare, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. So, are you fasting clean inside and out? Well, now you can. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 186 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am fabulous!

Melanie Avalon: Why are you fabulous?

Gin Stephens: I'm just really enjoying the new group that I have set up that I talked about last week for the new podcast that's coming. We're going to be recording our first episode this week. The name of the group for anyone who-- I hinted at it last week, but I didn't say the name. The name of the group is Life Lessons with Gin and Sheri. Sheri has one R. Life lessons with Gin and Sheri, join our community. It is not an intermittent fasting group, we will not answer your intermittent fasting questions. Even if you try to ask them, we will direct you to one of the other groups but it is really like-- such a small part of my life really is intermittent fasting. I have my daily eating window, and then there's the whole rest of my life. So, everything else that doesn't fit in the intermittent fasting box fits into this group. People are loving it. We're right at 5,000 members. People are sharing so many inspirational things, life hacks, laundry hacks, inspirational stories, funny photos. I mean, it's like, we just didn't realize what we were missing.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to join.

Gin Stephens: Join it. It is so much fun. And I dare you to try to ask an intermittent fasting question.

Melanie Avalon: I think I will.

Gin Stephens: Well, we're not going to approve it. [laughs] We have post approval on and we have three rules. But rule number three is, we do not answer intermittent fasting questions, please ask that in one of Gin's other groups, because we would be delighted to answer them there. Obviously, we don't mind answering intermittent fasting questions all day long, but not in the new group.

Melanie Avalon: That's really exciting. I am totally joining.

Gin Stephens: Well, please join. It's just such a breath of fresh air. I love it. I'm loving it. And my work is intermittent fasting, but I'm not only intermittent fasting. So, it lets me be myself in other ways, like I shared a laundry hack the other day and just all sorts of things. Anyway, join us.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, we'll put a link to it in the show notes. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode186, which they also have transcripts now. Very exciting. I'm going to say that every time. I have something fun.

Gin Stephens: Oh, good, yay!

Melanie Avalon: Well, you actually already know this, but--

Gin Stephens: Okay. I'll pretend like I don’t. I'm going to pretend to be surprised. All right, go ahead.

Melanie Avalon: I am on the CGM train!

Gin Stephens: Oh, yay, I already knew that. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: You know what's really funny about the CGM train?

Gin Stephens: That's continuous glucose monitor for anyone who is not understanding the code, but most people probably did. But just in case.

Melanie Avalon: That's funny, yeah, I did put up an Instagram post about it and I just said CGM, and somebody was like, “What's a CGM?” And I was like, “Oh, I guess I should clarify.”

Gin Stephens: Computer Generated Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yep, basically. What's funny, interesting is I'm poking and tricking myself with things all the time as a biohacker, of course, nothing illicit, but injecting glutathione, and checking my blood and I have no problem doing that. But I was really scared to do it.

Gin Stephens: It's just the unknown.

Melanie Avalon: It looks intimidating. For listeners, what it is, a continuous glucose monitor. Full disclosure, I am going to be testing two different brands, and see which I like better.

Gin Stephens: And then you're going to tell me, and I'm going to get one?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, I'm going to bring them on-- I'll have some episodes-- I'm actually deciding I might bring both companies on the show. I think I'm probably going to interview both of them. And if there's valuable information in both, I might air both of them. But I probably will in the end have one that I prefer, obviously, I'm still thinking about navigating those waters. But in any case--

Gin Stephens: I feel like that would be valuable to them, though even if you decide not to go with theirs as the one you're endorsing. There will still be people that do go with theirs. They could reach some people or nobody.

Melanie Avalon: I feel really weird about it.

Gin Stephens: Just be real upfront with them and just say, “Here's what I'm doing.”

Melanie Avalon: I told both of them because the situation was one of them reached out to me. I don't remember how the first one-- I think the first company contacted me. So, I set them up, I was going to do an interview, I am doing the interview. But then, Paul Saladino, who I had on the show, he introduced me to another company, and he was like, “Just give them a try.” And I was like, “Well, I'm already working with another company.” And they're like, “Well, just try it out. You can compare them, see how it goes.” For listeners, I think it's probably the best of both worlds because I will have experience with both. But, yeah, I was intimidated because the way you put it on, the applicator-- Oh, that's what I was going to say.

Gin Stephens: Is it like the little plunger kind of a thing?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: The one I used for the PREDICT study was like that.

Melanie Avalon: What brand was the one for the PREDICT study?

Gin Stephens: The one for the PREDICT study was FreeStyle Libre.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, that's what I use, because I'm right on testing Levels, and they use FreeStyle Libre. And the other company I'm going to be testing is Nutrisense and I think they also use FreeStyle Libre. But, yeah, the way you put it on for listeners if you're curious, it's like Gin just said, it's like a plunger with a really intimidating looking needle in it.

Gin Stephens: And then it just feels like someone tapped you on the arm. It doesn't hurt at all. And the little needle thing is so tiny.

Melanie Avalon: You don't feel it.

Gin Stephens: When I took it off, I was like me, “Man, that's so little.” Well, it was longer than I was expecting it to be, but it's not thick. It's really-- [crosstalk]

Melanie Avalon: How do you take it off? I haven't gotten to that point yet. Do you just rip it off?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you do. Did you put an adhesive patch over it too?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I put a Levels cover over it right now, branded. Did you?

Gin Stephens: They sent like a little like a big band-aid kind of a patch, but I don't like having things stuck to me. So, that's part of the problem. I didn't like all the adhesive that it left on my arm.

Melanie Avalon: I might have talked about this before-- yeah, we have talked about this. I like to remove decision fatigue by what I wear every day. I basically have three bathing suit cover ups made of terry cloth but they look like dresses. They are dresses sort of-- I basically wear them every single day. I just rotate them out. They're black with a white insignia and this patch is black with a white icon, so it matches.

Gin Stephens: But that's what you wear around the house. You don't wear that if you're going out, right?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no, I wear it out.

Gin Stephens: You do, your bathing suit coverup?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it looks like a dress, though.

Gin Stephens: Is it strapless?

Melanie Avalon: No, it's a halter. You can look on my Instagram.

Gin Stephens: Okay. But you don't wear it in the winter?

Melanie Avalon: I do.

Gin Stephens: Would you like wear a sweater over it?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, like a jacket. I like cold.

Gin Stephens: That's true, you do. Trying to wrap my head around, you're like Steve Jobs with his one outfit.

Melanie Avalon: I really am.

Gin Stephens: Not me. I got lots of things.

Melanie Avalon: I know. When it gets really cold, I transition to five of the same shirts, but they're still short sleeves.

Gin Stephens: Oh my gosh, no.

Melanie Avalon: I can't wear long sleeves. I can't, like I can't. I'm getting anxiety thinking about it.

Gin Stephens: What's on your feet?

Melanie Avalon: During the winter?

Gin Stephens: Well, during the summer and then during the winter. I'm very curious about your shoes.

Melanie Avalon: For as long as I can, I wear flip-flops.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, me too.

Melanie Avalon: And then during the winter, I forgot what they're called. That's how much I don't like wearing them, tennis shoes.

Gin Stephens: See, I can't wear tennis shoes, cannot. My feet are crazy. My heels are very, very narrow. It's almost like my feet are triangular. They're wide at the balls of my feet, very narrow heels. So, nothing really fits well around my heel, like tennis shoes do not fit me right. They always run up and down. And I hate to wear socks. So, if Uggs ever go out of style-- because I wear Uggs when it's cold. I have some little moccasins that I wear but I don't like to wear socks. But if Uggs ever go out of style, I'll be the crazy old lady still wearing them. And I don't care because you don't have to wear socks. They're so cozy and comfy. I love them.

Melanie Avalon: I might get some Uggs. I'm getting inspired.

Gin Stephens: I just really like how cozy and comfy they are.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really upset though so far with what I've learned from my CGM.

Gin Stephens: What is that?

Melanie Avalon: So, a CGM, basically, rather than having to prick your finger to evaluate your blood sugar levels, it constantly monitors them. I'm really excited to do the interview because I don't think it's actually measuring your blood.

Gin Stephens: It's like inner-sidal fluid? Yeah, I don't know how to say it. I'm going out of my brain.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, when I interview them, I'm going to be like, “Tell me all the details on the science." But it's really cool because you get a picture of your blood and the blood sugar levels constantly.

Gin Stephens: And isn't it interesting how it varies, though? So much variation, even during the fast to the point that people who are like, “I'm so upset. I went and got my fasting blood glucose and it was XYZ.” I'm like, “Well, if you had been there 10 minutes ago, it would have been something different.”

Melanie Avalon: If you've been there one minute ago.

Gin Stephens: It's true! It varies like crazy. It shocked me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, actually, that is a really good point about the blood sugar test at the doctor's office.

Gin Stephens: It got you somewhere on the curve. And so you might have been at the low of your curve or the high of your curve, but you don't know, and so to freak out, it's just-- Even if it got you on the low of the curve, you might be like, “Oh look, I'm fine,” when really you're not. I mean it could give you the complete wrong picture, which is what I'm like, “Why? Why are we--” Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 100%.

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And what I've learned so far, which is a little bit upsetting to me, you know how I've been talking about how I was doing low carb for a long time and every time I tried to bring back fruit in carbs, I didn't feel like metabolically flexible with it? I was really hungry. Honestly, like white knuckling and powering through like I've been eating lots of like a higher carb, lower fat diet for a while that I just felt like it wasn't really working. I was getting blood sugar swings. And when I first put on the CGM, yeah, it didn't look good. And I was like, “This is upsetting.” I was like, “I'm going to go back to low carb and see what happens.” And I did and that is like fixing it, which is upsetting because I want to get back to higher carb again.

Gin Stephens: Well, I really would like to encourage you to try-- I mean, what I learned from mine, my blood sugar control is great when I combine carbs and fat. I know that you like to do one or the other, but have you tried it with the CGM one?

Melanie Avalon: Not with a CGM, but every time I've tried that with my diet, I feel awful.

Gin Stephens: Really? See, that's how I feel great.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like not functional.

Gin Stephens: All right. I need the fat and the carbs together. Gives me that nice little gentle curve, the up and down. It doesn't [swoosh sound] you know.

Melanie Avalon: I did get excited by one thing, though, which I mean, it's not really a good thing, but I'd always suspected it, and this confirmed it. So, it's good to know it's not all in my head. I always felt like I would get severely reactive hypoglycemia after meals, like my blood sugar plummets.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, mine did not, as long as I stuck with the carbs in the fat.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I will give it a thought. I think what I'm going to do is since I have so much testing I have to do because I've got to test them and I got to test the other company, I'm going to ride out this low carb for a little bit and then try to bring back the fruit again and see what happens. So, it's very interesting, though. So, listeners, the point is stay tuned because I will have more information and I will have probably-- or I will have like a discount or an offer or something. So, stay tuned for that.

Gin Stephens: Now, see, here's something interesting. I know that fruit and isolation doesn't work well for me. I already know that. Fruit itself, I think, does give me an issue, but I don't eat fruit by itself. I never do. I just never have. But when I do, if I just open my window with some pineapple, like you said you used to do--

Melanie Avalon: Well, I close it. In the past it would mitigate--

Gin Stephens: Well, the order does matter.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Because in the Ray Peat world, they always suggest combining fruit with protein because it mitigates, actually what I just talked about, but potential reactive hypoglycemia from processing protein without carbs. Sorry, I interrupted.

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, that's fine. But the same thing, fruit by itself doesn't work well for me either. Even like apples with peanut butter, you would think the peanut butter might give you enough to balance it. It just doesn't. Fruit is not my best food.

Melanie Avalon: It used to be my best food, and we're going to get back there, goals.

Gin Stephens: My best food is cheese and beans and dairy and grains. Oh, it really is, for real.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Good times. It's fascinating. Do people need to have this? Nope. But it's fascinating to have. It's fun to see. But empowering more than anything to realize that you really are a special snowflake, every one of us is different. And this can help us, if we can see the trends, it could keep us from going down the road of prediabetes, diabetes, and the worsening health benefits. I would think that every insurance company would want to get these machines into everybody's hands that would be willing to have one. Every insurance company should say, “These are for free for anybody who's willing to really dial in your health.” Not as a toy, but as a very powerful tool. But as I was saying, “Do you need one?” Well, it really just confirmed what you kind of already suspected, right?

Melanie Avalon: Something that you said at the beginning, it really is powerful to see how much it fluctuates. I do wonder though if some people-- if there's more like flatline, but I'm just looking at mine right now, I just scanned it. And since noon-- in the past two hours-- right now it says that it's 90, which is higher than I would like, but since noon, I think the lowest was 70 and it's fluctuating between that. So, it's really, really interesting to see how unique you are and how you shouldn't focus on any one number. I wonder if this is accurate too because mine says at night, I drop into the 40s.

Gin Stephens: Mine did not drop that low. No. That's interesting. You hibernated at night.

Melanie Avalon: It's like red on the graph.

Gin Stephens: Mine very rarely dipped into the red. It did a couple times, but not very often.

Melanie Avalon: For clarification, because we said that Gin and I both had the FreeStyle Libre because it's a medical device that requires a prescription. But there are companies-- so when I was saying Levels and Nutrisense, there are companies that are making it available to the general public.

Gin Stephens: They give you the prescription. They do the medical. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, I'm testing their apps too, because then they have an app that interprets it. With Levels right now it says that my metabolic score is 90%, which is exciting. When I first started, I was on the fruit, it was 53%. And then I switched to keto, and now I'm at 90%.

Gin Stephens: So, see, it really does help you figure out what foods work best for your body.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I think I'm going to use it to-- because I just want to be eating a higher carb diet. So, I think I'm going to be really careful and see what I can do and keep it on point. I don't know, Paul Saladino, though talked about on his episode with Nutrisense about his CGM and apparently it was like ridiculously flatline. I do wonder if carnivore people-- some of them have that. Or anybody really.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that would be interesting. I don't know that a flatline is necessarily what we want, either.

Melanie Avalon: During the fast though, maybe.

Gin Stephens: I don't like completely flatline.

Melanie Avalon: Because if you're really ketogenic.

Gin Stephens: Well, it just shows your body's dumping out some of that glycogen that it had hanging around, that's when you go up.

Melanie Avalon: To a person on a ketogenic diet who's--

Gin Stephens: Wouldn't be having that, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I wonder.

Gin Stephens: But I mean, I know that but the thing that worries me, Melanie, about this is assuming that is what someone should be trying to get. That's the good question. Someone may tweak their diet to flatline when really, that's not the ideal state, which--

Melanie Avalon: This is helpful. These are good questions for me to talk about on the interview. Thank you.

Gin Stephens: And even so, someone might say, “Yes, you want to be flatline. But that doesn't mean it's true.” People say a lot of stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Because that's one of the things I really want to talk to them about because people often say that you want to mitigate-- I think I've talked about this before on this show. People say you want to mitigate high blood sugar after a carb meal, you should have a food combination so that it's a slow rise in blood sugar, but I actually feel maybe it's better to have a spike and then it goes down. It's processing those carbs, rather than--

Gin Stephens: Well, I know I feel better when it's slow. When I was eating their muffins that they had me eat for the study, it was more like-- the ones that were didn't have the fat. There were one kind of muffins were higher fat than the other kind, and I did better on the higher fat muffins, I think. I'm really excited to get my results back.

Melanie Avalon: When do you get the results?

Gin Stephens: Whenever they send them. Yeah, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I'm still waiting on results from-- I did a gut microbiome test recently and I still have not received those.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, the PREDICT study also had that. So, they did my gut.

Melanie Avalon: What company?

Gin Stephens: I mean, it's them, PREDICT. PREDICT does it. You send it to them. There's like a guy, his name's on the label that you send it to. And it's really funny, the moderator group, there were three of us going through it at the same time and we were joking about that poor guy that got all of our samples. Yeah, his name was on the address labels, we're like, I can't remember Phil, pretend like his name's Phil. That's not it. But it's like, “Hello Phil, sending you our samples.” But we all send them to the same guy. They all had the same guy on the label.

Melanie Avalon: I always feel we're dropping off those samples in the mail because I've sent so many of them.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and I was standing in the post office, mailing them and I had my CGM on. And this guy behind me was-- I might have told the story already. He's like, “What's on your arm?” I'm like, “Hello. Ask me anything.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: My friend told me I looked like an android.

Gin Stephens: I told you, Computer Generated Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, good times. It's fascinating to have all of this science as we're trying to understand it and optimize it and figure this out. But, again, everything I've found out, really has validated what I already knew. Which is why I'm saying if you feel really strongly about something, and the way you feel and the way you think something works for you, you're probably right. I had zero surprises.

Melanie Avalon: Because even with mine it pretty much showed things I was--

Gin Stephens: You were thinking it wasn't working for you and you're like, “Yep, there it is. Wow, it's worse than I thought.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, hypoglycemia after meals, which I still get even with the keto. So, I don't know what to do with that. My body just doesn't like food.

Gin Stephens: I did not. I don't have that. I really think a lot of it is our gut microbiome.

Melanie Avalon: I think so.

Gin Stephens: Heal your gut. Fix it all. So, I'm so terrified, I'm going to do something that'll mess up the good thing I got going on. I never want to do that.

Melanie Avalon: Well, one of the most fascinating things that I've read recently, I think I told you, I'm going to interview Joel Greene. He's the one who kept talking about that has the crazy things that are just blowing my mind, like things I've never heard before about all this?

Gin Stephens: Well, that must be crazy if it's blowing your mind, and you've never heard them.

Melanie Avalon: It is. It's things I've never heard.

Gin Stephens: Like what?

Melanie Avalon: He's the one about seeing how fat loss creates injury to the fat cells and changes the extracellular matrix. So, it's literally injuring your fat cell and the way that the injury is usually repaired is by regaining the weight. That's the reason our bodies try to regain weight. And then, things like how long-term ketogenic diets probably might promote cancer, because of the 4-HNE something, something. There's all this stuff that's just blowing my mind. And one of the things he talks about, though, is bacteria guilds. And he was saying how there are a lot of species of bacteria, but there are guilds that they're in. And so, there's a certain type of bacteria that--

Gin Stephens: Like a bacteria club?

Melanie Avalon: Basically, yeah. It's like a bacteria club, but there are different types of bacteria within the clubs, but there are three main clubs. There's like the carb club, the fat club, and the protein club. And it all relates to-- this is going way in the weeds, nitrogen generation, internal or external. And so, basically a high-protein diet versus a high-fat diet versus a high-carb diet, and how that determines the bacteria guild you have and how that determines so many things, and it's mind blowing. So, listeners, I'm going to I interview him, get excited.

Gin Stephens: So fascinating. We're learning so much. That's the thing, remain curious, because we're learning a lot. And sometimes the new things make us realize the old things were really kind of dumb to even believe. The people who are still like, “It's just calories, in calories out.” I'm like, “Okay, bless your heart.”

Melanie Avalon: He has so much on that about how the gut microbiome affects calories. It's crazy.

Gin Stephens: But people will still claim that's true. It's all just calories in, calories out, and I'm like, “All right, you must not have ever read anything.”

Melanie Avalon: It is literally technically calories in, calories out, but there's so many factors affecting that, it's not the calories you put in your mouth.

Gin Stephens: Right. And the calories out is the part you can't control. That's the big variable. People will say, “My RMR or whatever, resting metabolic rate, is this.” I'm like, “Okay, I don't think so.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and even calories in, you can't control because what he talks about the gut bacteria, a certain food might lead to more energy creation from your gut bacteria.

Gin Stephens: So, in the grand scheme of, is it calories in, calories out, I guess, technically. But it's not what you think it is. It's not what it says on the back of the package or on this Google search that tells you what your metabolism should be. And I also am pretty sure your metabolic rate looks a lot like that CGM blood glucose curve, depending on what you're doing right at that minute. It's not static.

Melanie Avalon: I think it was his book. He talks about that. He was saying the metabolism-- I don't know if it was him. Something I was reading recently, it was talking about metabolism and saying that it's not--

Gin Stephens: One number.

Melanie Avalon: There's not a rate. It's not a thing. It's just not. Like you're burning certain calories or you're not.

Gin Stephens: Every time someone says, “All you have to do is calculate your metabolic rate and then eat 500 calories fewer per day.” I'm like, “Okay, yeah, that sounds so good. But that's not really how our bodies work.” Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Stay tuned for all these conversations.

Gin Stephens: Are we ready to get to our questions?

Melanie Avalon: I think so.

Gin Stephens: All right, we've got one from Samantha. And she says, “Hey, there, Melanie and Gin. I'm three weeks into IF down about five-ish pounds, but mostly just feeling great. I'm loving your podcast. I've downloaded yours and Gin's second books and trying to catch up ASAP. I'm listening to your Weird IF Problems episode, so great.” That was a long time ago, Melanie. Was that number 100? No, that was Ask Me Anything.

Melanie Avalon: That was a while ago, we should do something fun like that again.

Gin Stephens: That would be fun. All right. “People around me think I'm crazy while I giggle to myself. Hey, there's another weird problem. I want to order wearable weights, but I don't see them on the 'stuff we like' page, can you steer me in the right direction, please? I'm curious what an appropriate weight is. I want to get bonus exercise from walking my dog, but don't want to end up with leg cramps. I was thinking four pounds. Where did you start and what do you were? I am 37 on my way from 160 to 140 or lower. Thanks, Sam.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Sam, thank you for your question. Yes. So, that's one of the strange things I do what I wear, like wrist weights all the time. All the time at the grocery store, while cleaning. Four pounds, if you mean four pounds total, that might be a good place to start. But normally, I just wear--there's like wearable risk weights you can get that are usually like a pound or two pounds, and that's what I would get. And they have them on Amazon, we can add it to the Stuff We Like. Or they usually have them at Marshall's, Ross, TJ Maxx, that's where I always get them. So, go there. And I think I mentioned this before, but another way that literally started toning my arms a lot was if you make all of your bowls like cast iron.

Gin Stephens: [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm not even kidding. Especially because then you have to wash it-- like me scraping it out, especially if I cook eggs in it, the next morning takes me 10 minutes, and I think it's a really good toning workout for my arms.

Gin Stephens: I'm doing lots of toning then because my dishwasher is broken.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, see?

Gin Stephens: And I was so glad, Melanie, that my dishwasher broke and it's all very bittersweet because I hate this dishwasher that this house came with.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so you're going to get a new one?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it was like a KitchenAid from, I don't know, over 10 years ago. So, it was a nice one when they bought it. Really, really nice, but dishwashers really have come a long way. It might even be 20 years old. I don't know when they remodeled that kitchen, but it was old. But you couldn't adjust the top higher or lower, the top rack. It was fixed. So, nothing fit, like wine glasses don't fit anywhere. Crazy.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know you could normally adjust the rack. I don't know if you can. I'm in an apartment, though. I don't know if that matters.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but here's something so interesting. I went to go order a new one. And I had to wait like a month before they could deliver it and install it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?

Gin Stephens: Yes. I'm like I feel like this should be an emergency. And people with a dishwasher should go to the top of the list, but they just looked at me. I didn't really say that, but.

Melanie Avalon: You ordered it from the company?

Gin Stephens: We got it from Best Buy.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Do they install it? How does that work? I've never ordered a dishwasher.

Gin Stephens: We're paying $150 to have it delivered and installed. They would deliver it for free if we could install it. But I'm like, “No, we cannot install it.” That's a no. I can install a blender. We're good at many things, but not installing dishwashers. Now, somebody will probably write in and say how easy it is. It probably is, we could probably learn how.

Melanie Avalon: We're definitely going to get feedback about this.

Gin Stephens: I would like to not have to know how. I feel like that would lead to a lot of stress on our marriage, trying to together install a dishwasher. They said they're going to bring it, but they can't bring it till the end of October. So, I am washing all the dishes. I'm also getting very creative and doing more cooking in the oven. Last night, I did all of it on a sheet pan with tin foil or aluminum foil.

Melanie Avalon: Nice.

Gin Stephens: That was easy to clean. I still had to wash the plates.

Melanie Avalon: I always use a convection oven. So easy.

Gin Stephens: Our wall oven is a convection oven.

Melanie Avalon: And Instant Pot.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I hadn't gotten on the Instant Pot bandwagon yet.

Melanie Avalon: It's fun. I think I'm going to make cottage cheese in it. I'm so excited.

Gin Stephens: I do love cottage cheese. You're going to make cottage cheese?

Melanie Avalon: I am.

Gin Stephens: And you're going to eat dairy?

Melanie Avalon: I've been eating some cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: I didn't know that.

Melanie Avalon: But I rinse it. Did we talk about this?

Gin Stephens: No. You should strain it and send me the-- I would probably drink cottage cheese juice or whatever that is, the liquid.

Melanie Avalon: You take the rest. Well, that's why I realized I could start making my own and then I won't have to rinse it.

Gin Stephens: Why do you rinse it?

Melanie Avalon: Because they add back in the cream and I wanted to make it fat free.

Gin Stephens: Oh.

Melanie Avalon: So, if I just make it from skimmed milk-- when they make cottage cheese, I realized all the ones you buy at the store, they make the cottage cheese but then they add back in cream.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I didn't know that.

Melanie Avalon: And I don't want that cream, so you can rinse off that cream. Or you can make some on the Instant Pot.

Gin Stephens: Well, now I'm craving cottage cheese.

Melanie Avalon: Fun fact. Did you know that your house contains a Faraday cage?

Gin Stephens: No. Is it in your microwave?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Yeah, I did know that.

Melanie Avalon: So, friends, listeners, if you ever want to completely stop all communication with your phone, like airplane mode to the extreme, put it in the microwave.

Gin Stephens: And don't turn it on.

Melanie Avalon: And don’t turn it on. Gosh.

Gin Stephens: No, really. I have personal experience about that.

Melanie Avalon: You turned on the microwave?

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, I didn't, no. One of my children did.

Melanie Avalon: Put their phone in the microwave?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they thought it would be a hilarious video.

Melanie Avalon: What happened?

Gin Stephens: It made the phone completely stop working. They did not confess it to me till years later. Okay, so first of all, I need to disclaimer this story, because I actually feel like I should contact the Apple Store and pay them back. But this was when one of my children was in middle school, so it was so long ago, okay, because they're not grownups and I didn't know the truth for years and now I feel like the statute of limitations. But he was like, “My phone stopped working. It won't work at all.” And I'm like, “Well, that's not good.” He's like, “It won't turn on, nothing will happen.” So, we went to the Apple Store. You know they test to make sure it didn't drop in water? Well, it didn't drop in water.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, how old was your son?

Gin Stephens: I mean maybe sixth grade> It was a long time ago, a long time ago. And they're like, “We don't know what happened. Here's the new phone.” And like, “Okay, thank you. Y'all are awesome.” And then, years later, he's like, "Yeah, I put it in the microwave." And I'm like, “What? We stole aside from the Apple Store,” because I would never mislead them on purpose. I'd be like, “He put it in the microwave.” I always tell the truth.

Melanie Avalon: It didn't explode?

Gin Stephens: Nope. Just stopped working. It bricked it. Apple Store, I'm so sorry. I apologize. I feel like I should go there and pay them back for this old iPhone from a long time ago. Anyway. Never do that.

Melanie Avalon: Fun Facts with Melanie and Gin. Basically, a Faraday cage blocks like all everything, electricity wise.

Gin Stephens: Now, I feel like I shouldn't tell that story because I'm like, embarrassed because I'm such an honest person.

Melanie Avalon: You didn't know.

Gin Stephens: I didn't know. And it was years later that he told me.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I probably done something like that. Nothing's coming to mind right now.

Gin Stephens: I should march him in there right now and say, “This young man right here owes you for an iPhone.” I won't say which child it was that did it. So, I'll protect his anonymity.

Melanie Avalon: I bet I know which one.

Gin Stephens: You probably do. I don't know. You could be wrong.

Melanie Avalon: Really? Actually, wait, now I'm thinking. Now, I might not know.

Gin Stephens: One of them would have known better. Let me just put it that way.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah. Then, I know which one. All right. So, our next question comes from Josephine. The subject is "Frustrating Plateau. Help, Plus Feels." And Josephine says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. I am now on month four of IF with a protocol of 18:6 or 19:5 depending on the day. I lost weight in month two, and then have completely stalled. The weird thing is, I haven't changed a thing. If anything, my stomach has shrunk to where I can't eat the quantities I ate before in my eating window. Additionally, I added a few weeks of extra cardio towards the end of my fasting window. But still, my body looks exactly the same. The same fat pockets on my upper thighs and belly remain. I'm sleeping really well, so I know it's not cortisol. I am no more stressed than I have ever been. I am not eating fattier or more carb-heavy foods, nor more caloric foods. I am so perplexed. I really, really, really do not want to do ADF. It just sounds miserable to go an entire day without food. Is that really the only way to break through this plateau? Do you and Melanie have any other suggestions for me to tweak my protocol? I just want to lose those last five to seven stubborn fat pockets. It feels like my body wants to hold on to them for dear life.” Then, she has another question, but we can go ahead and answer that.

Gin Stephens: This is one of those things, it's hard to know exactly. But five to seven pounds is what Josephine wants to lose. The last five to seven pounds. Also, we have got genetically different bodies. I've got a certain kind of thighs, so does my mother, we are built a certain way. I would not lose certain parts of my body no matter how hard I try, because it's how my body is built. I've just got those kind of hips, those kind of thighs. It's, I guess, the stubborn fat, but it's genetic. So, I wonder if Josephine is fighting against just genetic fat, that's just how she's built, that's her size. She might be at her perfect weight, that her body thinks is her perfect weight. See, that's the trick right there. You may think your perfect weight is different than your body thinks your perfect weight is and it's really, really hard to change your genetic perfect weight.

When we're dealing with five to seven pounds, that's just something to keep in mind. We are all built differently. I am never going to be-- like, I remember one time back in the 90s or something, I was like, “I just want to be lanky.” And my husband said, “You're not going to be lanky. That's not how you're built.” And I got super offended, then I'm like, “Oh yeah, you're right.” I'm never going to be lanky, that's not my body tight. So, if it feels like your body wants to hold on to that for dear life, that might be really what's happening.

Now, are there ways to lose more weight? Assuming that this is not where your body wants to be, and you can lose five to seven more pounds of fat. It doesn't have to be ADF, you don't have to go an entire day without food, even if you do ADF. You could do the down day version with the 500-calorie meal if that works for you. Or you could say, “Nope, I'm not going to do ADF at all.” I have a hybrid approach. I have several different approaches listed in Fast. Feast. Repeat. Check out the IF Toolbox chapter for that.

But you could also tweak your food choices. You said you're not eating fattier or more carb-heavy foods or more caloric foods. You're eating foods that are helping you maintain right where you are. So, in order to lose more, you're going to need to change something. Change what you're eating, tweak it in some way or another, the Feast section of Fast. Feast. Repeat. can help you figure that out, some things that you might want to tweak. Melanie is finding that for her, really a lower carb, higher fat approach is working really well for her body right now. She's also experimented with the lower fat approach. So, try some different things. Those last five to seven pounds can be the most stubborn for all of us.

And really, this may be also the time to throw the scale away and focus on body changes. Photos, huge. I mentioned to Melanie that I've been using my Shapa scale, the numberless scale, and I've been on teal, after giving up wine and not drinking, except on a few special occasions. I've been on teal, which indicates very slow and steady weight loss. But I have a pair of honesty pants. I took my photos in them in May and then I just took photos wearing the same pants the other day. And I've completely lost some love handles that had popped up at some point. The photos showed such a difference. I didn't even realize I had those love hands, honestly. But I've been going through menopause, I'd been drinking a lot more wine. My body had changed and now it's changing back. I haven't gotten on the scale, but other than my numberless the scale, I haven't seen a number. So, I really am curious what the weight fluctuation was for me, but the only thing I've changed is taking out wine. And boy, my body has changed from those photos.

Melanie Avalon: I forgot. Does the Shapa scale ever show you a weight ever?

Gin Stephens: Oh, I could touch a certain place and it would show it to me. I could touch it. Every now and then I look at that and I'm like tempted.

Melanie Avalon: Can you make it so that it doesn't ever show you as well? Can you make it colors from the start? Or does it give you a weight at the beginning?

Gin Stephens: Oh, I've never seen a weight. I haven't seen a weight the whole time. Yes. Now, if you set it to sync to Apple Health or something, if you set it to sync, you're going to see your weight. So, don't set it to sync with other apps if you don't want to see your weight. I just wanted to see the color. Yesterday, I had a longer window and back in the days that I was weighing and seeing a number-- I mean, I haven't seen a number since 2017. Literally, I have not seen a weight number since 2017.

Melanie Avalon: What do you do at the doctor?

Gin Stephens: I don't look at a number. I don't want to see a number. I don't want you to tell me a number. I refuse to know a number.

Melanie Avalon: I don't look either. But sometimes they tell me it.

Gin Stephens: Well, they're not going to tell me if I tell them not to, and I mean it. Anyway, I don't want to see a number. Yesterday, I had a longer eating window, and so this morning, if I were looking at numbers, even though I know that fluctuation is okay, this morning, I was like, “Hmm, I wonder if my weight's higher today.” But I didn't care because I got on the scale and there was my color. It just shows you your overall trend. So, anyone who's interested--

Melanie Avalon: What's the maintenance color?

Gin Stephens: Green is the maintenance color.

Melanie Avalon: What's the gaining color?

Gin Stephens: A lighter gray, and then a darker gray. And I want to know if I'm ever gaining weight because apparently, I did gain a little weight over-- maybe it was the pandemic, I don't know, I was drinking more. We were all stressed out. A lot of people gained weight early in the pandemic, even intermittent fasters who'd been maintaining for years. So, how much of it was menopause? How much was pandemic? How much was the extra wine? Are they really all related? Probably. But I think if I'd had it, I probably would have seen gray and it would have helped me realize, okay, I am gaining weight because even in your clothes-- I mean, I was still wearing the same clothes. I didn't have to go up a clothing size. I was still at a button everything, at no time did I not fit in my clothes. But the way I looked at them according to the photo was different. If I hadn't had the photos, I wouldn't even realize. Take those photos.

If you're interested in the Shapa scale, the website is myshapa.com, I think is the website. And the promo code is IFSTORIES. You'll get a special deal, but, man, I love it. I think it's really life changing and even people-- if you get on it and you see gray, people like, “Yeah, well, that upsets me.” But it's information. If your pants are too tight, that's upsetting as well. But having the information while you can take action is the point of it.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of the sponsors for today's show, and that's Audible. Audible is the leading provider of spoken-word entertainment and audiobooks ranging from bestsellers to celebrity memoirs, news, business, and self-development. Every month, members get one credit to pick any title two audible originals from a monthly selection, access to daily news digests and guided meditation programs. Beyond Audible’s normal entertainment and audiobook options, I want to tell you about something special they're offering right now. And that's stories.audible.com.

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And now here's a special offer just for our listeners. Visit audible.com/ifpodcast or text 'IF Podcast' to 500-500. Try Audible for free and get one free audiobook in your first month. Of course, Melanie and I recommend that you choose What When Wine or Fast. Feast. Repeat., or even Delay, Don't Deny. Or you can choose from the thousands of titles available on Audible. That's audible.com/ifpodcast. And now back to the show.

All right, so what would you like to say to Josephine about what I said?

Melanie Avalon: I really like everything you said, just basically going to emphasize and resay some of the things you said that, a lot of our bodies will be at a point like Gin said, where they are happy with where they're at and if it is a matter of those last 5 or 10 pounds, I know she said 5 or 7-- and I'm learning a lot about this reading that Joel Greene book, there can be fat that is exactly like you said, stubborn. And if you want it gone because of your goals and aesthetically and for whatever reason, because that's everybody's own prerogative, I don't really have any comments. I don't think we should find worth in our body weight and I don't think we should judge ourselves by that. But if you want-- if that's like an important goal to you, I don't have any problem with that either.

Gin Stephens: Unless it makes you miserable. I have a problem with that because she talks about fat pockets on her thighs and belly. I've got a fat pocket on my belly. And so, I choose a bathing suit that goes up a little higher. And there are certain styles of bathing suits I'm not going to wear. I wear a more high-waisted bathing suit and tuck that stuff in it and feel great on the beach. I'm not trying to have a body that my body is not going to want to maintain. I could do it. I could lose, but I don't want to live that way. And it would be really hard to maintain. So, you want to pick a weight where you can feel beautiful, or handsome, but also still enjoy your life. That's what I think.

Melanie Avalon: 100%, I agree. I think out of all of it, and Gin said this, and she said this, but she said she's not eating more carbs or more fat or more calories, but-- I talk about this all the time. But really paying attention to the macros is a thing, so potentially trying low carb, high fat or high fat, low carb and making sure it actually really does fit those macros. So, for high carb, low fat, I would suggest, and this sounds a little bit crazy, but 10% or less calories from fat is usually what is “prescribed” for that. I did an interview with Cyrus and Robbie of Mastering Diabetes, I'll put a link in the show notes to that. Or if you're doing low carb, high fat, making sure it actually is low carb, high fat.

That's usually-- I mean, if you want to definitely be spot on, they say like 20 grams are lots of carbs. Sometimes, it's a little bit more. But really zoning in and trying one of those approaches can do wonders. The biggest thing for me that I'm probably going to say every single time, maybe for the rest of my life is looking at seed oils, polyunsaturated fats, PUFAs, omega-6s in particular. I did recently have Cate Shanahan on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, that was last week, I think. The reception to that episode was insane. Definitely listen to it, there's something to consider there about getting PUFAs out of your diet, because if you want to turn your fat cells into-- this is something that Joel Greene talks about a lot. Your fat cells are not just fat cells, this was really mind blowing for me. They're not just fat cells. They are a lot of things. They can store fat, but they also contain immune cells, they also contain stem cells that can either become immune cells or fat cells. They're not just there to store fat, they're there to store toxins to protect us. That's why cleaning up your endocrine exposure through your skincare and makeup, things like that, Beautycounter is an example. It can be really, really important. When the fat cell no longer is functioning as a fat cell, if it's been damaged by polyunsaturated fats, or by weight loss, or whatever it is, it can be really hard to lose it. It can literally become stubborn fat. And if you want to get it gone, it can be really, really hard when the signals in that fat cell are working against you, because all of the signals in that fat cell are to keep it at its present state. And so, this is also something we're like, topically addressing-- Especially if you combined with fasting or one of the diets like a high carb, low fat or low carb, high fat, combined with topical treatment, I think can be really helpful.

So, I don't know, because I haven't done it, but I talked about this before. But Joel Greene in his book talks about topical treatments that involve like menthol on the stubborn fat pockets. Caffeine is also a topical treatment you can use. I know there are lot of creams out there, but I get really nervous about the creams because they usually have a lot of nasty compounds in them that you don't want in your body. I haven't seen a lot of research on this. But even putting coffee on the areas, especially while you're fasting. Red light therapy, we talk about Joovv a lot. There are different theories behind how that works, but the thought is that the wavelengths actually break down that fat cell membrane and help the fatty acids leak out into the bloodstream. And this feels a whole tangent rabbit hole but basically, if it is stubborn fat where that fat cell has decided it's not releasing its fat for whatever reason, sometimes you've got to help give it a signal to do so, that's why I think things like topical treatment, red light therapy, combined with dietary changes might work. The fitness models, and people who do this for living, they're doing it for a living. It's their job to fight this. Compared to the everyday person where it's not always so easy.

Gin Stephens: That's the whole dilemma because you said earlier, if that's your goal and you really want to work for that, of course, it's your right to do it. And we're not judging anybody who wants to, if it's your job or if you're a model, but it just makes me feel sad. And even a lot of the people that we see, the models, that's not really how they look because the photos have been airbrushed, they've been doctored. They don't really look like that. So, we're trying to look like somebody that's not even how they look. And the people that are like the competition figure people, they don't look like that every day.

Melanie Avalon: And then after it's like, usually-- because we've had Wade Lightheart on, he talks about that a lot and Joel Greene talks about the awful-- like weight cycling, like what that does to your body.

Gin Stephens: It just makes me sad to think that we're trying to get to these ideals that are not real. Again, some of the people like the Victoria's Secret models, they have a different genetic look than I do. There is not one single thing I could do to look like the Victoria's Secret Angels, like nothing, it wouldn't happen. I couldn't.

Melanie Avalon: Like, you can't increase your height.

Gin Stephens: I can't or my leg length or get rid of my fat pockets. That's just the way I am. Anyway, so many things we could talk about forever and ever. All right, you want to get the rest of that question?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Josephine has one more question. She says, “Also, one last unrelated question. I bought Feals CBD oil, but I'm scared to take it during my fasting window since it has calories. Did I hear you wrong, Gin, when you said you don't mind taking it during your fasting window? Could you please explain why? Don't any calorie spike insulin? Thanks.” And then, she says, “I hope you both remain healthy and well during this crazy time.”

Gin Stephens: First of all, let's get that one sentence, “calories spiking insulin.” Really, it's more complicated than the idea of calories. Some calories spike insulin more than other calories. Some would barely spike it like an oil, for example. But that has another issue, it's not all about insulin. We do want to avoid calories. We do want to avoid spiking insulin. Flavors and sweeteners are more likely to spike insulin higher than like just a little MCT oil, for example. Neither would I recommend during the fast if you're hoping to fast clean, but now let's talk about the complexity that is medication or supplements that you need. So, if you have an issue that Feals CBD oil is going to help you with, anxiety, really terrible anxiety problems, pain. I'm trying to think of all the things that CBD oil can help with. Depression. If you had to choose between keeping your fast completely clean and dealing with a medical issue that is debilitating, then please take the CBD oil. It's not going to affect you so badly that you're not going to recover from it.

Now, if you're just taking it just to see, keep it in your eating window if you can, or if you're taking it for sleep purposes, that sort of thing. But if I needed Feals and the only time that I could take it was during the fast because it was going to help me and I needed it therapeutically during the fast, I would not hesitate to take it. That being said, it absolutely does break my fast because I've experimented with it during the fast and it made me hungry in a different kind of way. I had to open my window and I had to eat. So, I can't take it during the fast. I have to take it during my eating window or close to bedtime. You'll just have to experiment and see. But if it's something you need and you need to take it in the fast and it doesn't make you want to gnaw your arm off, like it made me so hungry, then it's fine.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's great. For listeners, I'm a huge fan of CBD, because basically it works on your brain's endocannabinoid receptors and it modulates them. It's not addictive, like a drug, it's not making you need the CBD oil. It's just changing that whole system to potentially work for the better and like Gin mentioned all the things that can help with. I'm always shocked by its potency because especially I've had periods of like more anxiety, and I would take a daily and then not take it as much. But I just know when I got broken into that one time. That's when it really sold me because I was like crying and bawling and I was so stressed, and I couldn't even handle it and I took like a big dose of it. And I was literally like laughing 15 minutes later. So, it can be really incredible. But I do want to give a caveat that I wouldn't just take any CBD because now that it's popular, it's everywhere and there's no quality control. So, I really wanted to vet out a brand that would meet all my criteria, which is it's full spectrum, it's organic-- it's made with organic carrier, and it's tested. Feals does all of that. And they also shipped straight to your door, which is pretty incredible.

When I take it, it doesn't make me hungry, and it doesn't have that effect at all. Basically, what Gin just said, you've got to just experiment for you and see how it affects anything. If there was one type of oil that I think would be least likely to “break a fast,” it would be MCT oil. I'm not saying bulletproof coffee, like tablespoons of MCT oil. I'm saying like, when you take Feals, it's like just a few drops. So, I think the potential there is a lot less compared to a lot of other things. But, yes, I basically echo everything that Gin said. But honestly, Feals really does have me feeling my best every day when I take it. And I think that it can help you guys too. And you can become a member today, you just go to feals.com/ifpodcast. And if you do that, you will actually get 50% off your first order with free shipping, which I say this every time, but I think that's one of our best offers out of all the brands we work with. So, I'm so grateful for that. That's F-E-A-L-S dotcom slash IF podcast, o become a member and get 50% automatically taken off your first order with free shipping, feals.com/ifpodcast.

Okay. Well, don't think we have time for anything else, but this has been absolutely wonderful. Few final resources for listeners before we go. Again, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode186. You can join our Facebook groups. Okay, wait, Gin. So, what's your Facebook group called again?

Gin Stephens: It's called Life Lessons with Gin and Sheri. G-I-N is Gin. Sheri, S-H-E-R-I. Life Lessons with Gin and Sheri, answer the three questions. We're having so much fun reading the answers to the questions. People are explaining why they're there. Everyone's answers are so fitting in with our vision for this community.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm excited to see what they are and to answer.

Gin Stephens: Almost everybody in the group came out of our other Facebook groups at this point because we don't have the podcast yet, no one's listening to it because doesn't exist yet. But eventually people will find it and get to the Facebook group, not having-- they won't be intermittent fasters. Right now, almost everybody is an intermittent faster. But just seeing how our community is amazing already. It's just amazing. Everyone is just very positive, and people are just incredible. The things that we deal with in our daily lives, we're so much more than just our fasting protocol. It's nice to talk about something else is what I'm saying. It's so nice. We're talking about everything. You know how Seinfeld was the show about nothing?

Melanie Avalon: I didn't know that.

Gin Stephens: That's what they always said, the show about nothing. Well, we are the Facebook group about everything.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I love it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really happy and excited for you because that sounds like the vibe I've been feeling in my Facebook group. We talk about everything.

Gin Stephens: We're not about health only. I mean we will talk about that. Our first podcast, we're going to talk about sleep, our first episode, but we're going to talk about things like that. But also, some more funny things. One of the topic ideas for a podcast is famous sayings, the origin of sayings, like we say them all the time, but where do they come from? What's the origin of that? Doesn’t that sound interesting? We can really talk about whatever we want.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to send you two mind-blowing articles I've read recently that are like this, that blew my mind.

Gin Stephens: Awesome. But then, we're also going to share the funniest wrong ones. Like what you've heard, perhaps your-- my husband, Chad has a say. I'll share this on the podcast, not today, but something he was saying that he thought was the same, but I'm like, “What did you just say?” But we all have had things like that, where we thought it was one thing, but it was not. So, we'll share some of those really funny misunderstood or missaid sayings.

Melanie Avalon: I've got to send you.

Gin Stephens: Please do.

Melanie Avalon: I think it was mind-blowing facts about some words and phrases that would blow your mind. Oh, my goodness, it blew my mind!

Gin Stephens: We're going to be able to talk about anything we want. And it's going to be interesting and sometimes it'll be serious, like, how are we going to navigate the holidays with COVID? That's a serious topic, or a fun topic. It's just really going to be anything that people want to hear. We're going to have different segments where listeners are going to share things. I'm so excited.

Melanie Avalon: It's so exciting.

Gin Stephens: I will never stop intermittent fasting and the two podcasts that I already have. I'll never stop those because that's important to me. But it's nice to have something else to talk about.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. So, listeners, definitely join that group and you can also join my group as well, which is IF Biohackers Intermittent Fasting, plus real foods, plus life. It is more biohacking related, but you can also talk about anything you like there. So, you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. You can follow me, I'm @melanieavalon where you can see a picture of my CGM where I look like an android. And you can follow Gin, she's @ginstephens. I think that's everything.

Gin Stephens: Yep. I enjoyed it.

Melanie Avalon: Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: I think I said it all.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. All right. I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye. Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Nov 01

Episode 185: TREAT Clinical Discussion, Muscle Loss, Headline Vs Study, Circadian Rhythm, Early Window Vs Late Window, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 185 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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 JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BLUBLOX: Go To BluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

Listener Q&A: Megan - TREAT Clinical Trial

Effects of Time-Restricted Eating on Weight Loss and Other Metabolic Parameters in Women and Men With Overweight and Obesity

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #37 - James Clement

Gin's Favorite Things

GREEN CHEF: Organic Meal Delivery Service With Paleo, Vegan, And Keto Options: Go to GreenChef.com/ifpodcast90 And Use Code ifpodcast90 To Get $90 Off And Free Shipping!

JOOVV:  Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A: Jeff - Early Is Better?

Dry Farm Wines: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To DryFarmWines.com/IFPodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 185 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Friends, I have a story for you. I recently got septoplasty to fix my deviated septum so that I could breathe better. And in the recovery period, you're not supposed to wear glasses. Oh, my goodness. I cannot tell you how much I realized how much I adore and need and love BLUblox blue light blocking glasses. I've been wearing them every single night of my life until I got that surgery. Guys, you need this in your life.

In today's world, we're way overexposed to blue light. While blue light is energizing, we're not supposed to be seeing it 24/7. It can raise cortisol, stress levels, create tension and headaches, disrupt your sleep, and so much more. Of course, there are a lot of “blue light blocking glasses” on the market these days. Andy Mant, the founder of BLUblox, he personally realized how incredible blue light blocking glasses were for him personally. So, then he did something crazy and actually tested all the brands on the market to see if they actually were blocking blue light like they said they were. They weren't really. That's why he took things into his own hands to create glasses that would block the blue light you need to be blocking to truly have the healthiest relationship possible with light.

That's also why he made BLUblox light blocking glasses in a lot of different versions. They have clear computer glasses you can wear all day while looking at the computer. They have their SummerGlo lens that blocked the draining form of blue light while still allowing in some of the energizing wavelengths. They're also tinted with a special yellow color, scientifically shown to boost mood. And, of course, they have their Sleep+ lens, you can put those on a bed and it's just like, bam, tired. At least that's the way it works for me because actually blue light can block melatonin production, which helps us naturally fall asleep.

Also, get their Sleep Remedy Mask. Oh, my goodness, I use it every single night. It gives you complete blackout while still putting no pressure on your eyes. Like you wear it, and you can open your eyes completely, and it's completely black. It's mind-blowing. In case you're wondering, I'm still not supposed to be wearing glasses, but I ordered this weird contraption head thing to hold the glasses over my eyes because I just really need the blue light blocking glasses in my life. These glasses also come in a huge array of styles, so you don't have to feel like a weirdo biohacker like me. You can really get any style or frame to fit your personal style.

You can shop with us at blublox.com, that's B-L-U-B-L-O-X dotcom and use the code, IFPODCAST, to get 15% off. Something else amazing, for every pair of glasses you buy, BLUblox donates a pair of glasses to someone in need. The glasses can also come in prescription made to order. Again, that's blublox.com with the coupon code, IFPODCAST, for 15% off.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that what you put on your skin gets direct access to your bloodstream and in your body can do a lot of detrimental things? So, while you may be fasting clean, you may at the same time be infusing your body with endocrine disrupters, which can mess with your hormones, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight and even carcinogens.

In Europe, they've banned thousands of these compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup, and the US has banned less than 10. In fact, most conventional lipstick, for example, is high in lead and the half-life of lead in the body can be up to 30 years. That means every time you put on some lipstick, you might be putting some lead into your bones, which might not leave for three decades. This is a big deal. Thankfully, there's an easy all-encompassing answer.

There's a company called Beautycounter, and they were founded on a mission to make skincare and makeup products that are safe for your skin. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to not burden your body and support your skin health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd like to learn more about safe beauty and also get a ton of amazing discounts and free things from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. Not sure which Beautycounter products to try? I also just made a whole series of online quizzes to match you to your perfect product. Those are at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. So, here's the fasting clean inside and out. All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 185 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am fabulous, and I have a very exciting announcement.

Melanie Avalon: What is that?

Gin Stephens: For people who can't get enough listening to me talk to you, I'm starting a third podcast. Coming soon. I'll share more details later.

Melanie Avalon: What?

Gin Stephens: Yep. I know you already knew I was working on that, but a third podcast with a friend of mine. For people who listen to Intermittent Fasting Stories, Sheri Bullock, she was episode number nine. And she and I just really hit it off and become friends. We're friends. She and I just went to the beach last week. A few weeks ago, she called me and she's like, “Alright, I'm going to do it. I'm going to start a podcast.” She was asking me for tips about starting a podcast. She said what her vision was, and we were talking about it. It's not going to be an intermittent fasting podcast. It's not going to be about intermittent fasting at all.

Melanie Avalon: How dare you!

Gin Stephens: I know. I feel like now intermittent fasting is just a small part of me. I've got so many other parts of me. But in talking about giving her tips, she was like, “And I'd like to bring people on. What about a cohost? I've been thinking about-- I don't know who it would be.” Then all of a sudden, my brain went, “Ding, ding, ding.” And I said, “Huh. What about me?” She got really excited because she was not asking me to cohost and I wasn't trying to horn in on her podcast idea. But she got really excited, I got really excited. And we just went to the beach for a few days. We hammered it all out. We started a Facebook group to get everybody excited about it. A lot of it's going to be crowdsourced as far as the topics we cover. Anyway, I'm really, really excited.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this is very exciting. You're going to be a three-show woman.

Gin Stephens: Well, I know. It's crazy. I guess my teachers from elementary school, middle, and high school who said Gin talks too much, who's laughing now? But 1st of December, I'll share more information as it goes. But we're giving ourselves a couple months to really hammer out all the details. But it's really, really exciting. We're going to have a community structured around it. And we opened it up, we posted in the Facebook groups about it. And within 24 hours, we had 3,000 members in our community already. And they're all so excited because, again, we're all intermittent fasters. And a lot of people in the intermittent fasting community when you've been doing it, it just becomes part of you. So, you're like, “Alright, now I'm ready to talk about something else.”

Melanie Avalon: Wait, so this community that you created, does it give away what the show is about? Or does it just say--?

Gin Stephens: Maybe. I'll share more later. I'm not quite ready yet. We're still very early. But I know some of the listeners are probably already in our podcast community, but I think it's going to be fabulous. And as we were approving members and looking at how to answer the questions that we asked, like why do you want to be in this community, kind of a thing, what do you want to learn about, they are so aligned with our vision. It's going to be great.

Melanie Avalon: Exciting. 2021.

Gin Stephens: I know, well, it's starting in 2020. But, yes, 2021 is when it's really going to get going. So, I'm just really excited.

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: And I'm never going to stop the intermittent fasting communities for anybody who may be worried. I'm not going anywhere, but it's just nice to branch out a little bit. That's probably how you feel on the biohacking podcast, you get to talk about other interesting topics.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I feel that show really satisfies all of my desires to reach out, like you just said, different topics so I'm not just in the intermittent fasting world.

Gin Stephens: And probably this won't surprise anyone, but ours is not going to be biohacking. It's going to be more life hacks, things you want to know about. For example, when you want to go buy a car, I mean, just general types of things. What do you do when you're an empty nester? We're going to have inspirational stories, lots of little segments in there where we collect stories about life. It's going to be really different. It's not just going to be one topic that we talk about for an hour. It's going to have lots of little different things in there.

Melanie Avalon: It's exciting.

Gin Stephens: I know. I can't wait. Anyway, so what's up with you?

Melanie Avalon: Well, speaking of my other show, which is the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, I probably said this before. I do this thing where I have guests booked for a certain amount of time, like out in the calendar. And then, I'll start stressing and like, “Oh, what if I run out of guests?” So, then I'll massively email 10 or 15 people, and then half of them answer and say they want to come on and then I get really stressed because I'm like, “Oh, my goodness, so many more shows to prep now.” So, I did that. I have a lot of really exciting guests coming on, including one of them who Gin already knows, but Dr. Fung. I am so excited!

Gin Stephens: Very exciting!

Melanie Avalon: It's very weird that we haven't talked to him before, either of us, because you haven't, right? Have you ever talked to him?

Gin Stephens: No, I haven't. I've never talked to him. I feel I've been running along. But I'm sure, yeah, I remember several years ago, even right after Delay, Don't Deny came out maybe, at some point in 2017, I was talking to my sister as my communities were getting bigger and as my book was selling pretty well. And I said, “I wonder if Dr. Fung knows who I am.” She's like, “Oh, he knows.” Just like how we know of everybody. I mean I can't imagine that no one's ever walked into his office and said, “I read Delay, Don't Deny.” I mean, surely. As I look at the weight loss diets category on Amazon, Fast. Feast. Repeat. is usually right next to The Obesity Code, like they've been wanting to every day. Yeah. So, I mean, unless he never looks at Amazon. Oh, can I tell you something? It's hilarious, but a little sad.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: There's a new book on Amazon. And it's called Fast. Feast. Repeat. And it has Delay, Don't Deny also in the subtitle, and it was written by Dr. Gin Herring.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh. It's ridiculous.

Gin Stephens: I know, I would really like to meet Dr. Gin Herring because she sounds amazing. And her title is so very similar to mine. And has 81 five-star reviews. And one of them said that they've read all of my books, and they love them.

Melanie Avalon: All of your books?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Uh-huh. Mine, me. So, people do not buy Fast. Feast. Repeat. by Dr. Gin Herring, because that is a fake person and that is not my book. So, I've emailed my publisher, hopefully they can get that one taken down. But, clearly, I mean, it's ranked in the top 100,000 of all books on Amazon, which means somebody is buying it.

Melanie Avalon: Right. It's insane.

Gin Stephens: It is insane. Amazon should really do a better job because they know that that is nothing but a copycat. They should know. You would think that with the way you publish self-published on Amazon with Kindle Direct Publishing, it has to go through like a process and then it gets approved. They need to put human eyeballs on those books and say, “Is this a copycat of a book that's already out there with the name that's almost exactly the same as the real author?” Because there are a lot of people that is their entire business model is making books that are almost like a real book. And the name of the author is clearly not real, because it's-- there was one book called Fast. Feast. Repeat. The Cookbook, written by Steven Gin.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.

Gin Stephens: I know. I feel like Amazon should be able to notice that's not really a real book and that it's just there to trick people. Amazon, I'm counting on you. You can clean this up. I love you but you're going to have to do a little better. That's all I have to say.

Melanie Avalon: I have an exciting announcement that I realized we never announced.

Gin Stephens: Ooh, what is that?

Melanie Avalon: I'm really upset. We'd like implemented this, but then we never actually told the listeners.

Gin Stephens: Oh my God. What is it?

Melanie Avalon: You might not even know.

Gin Stephens: I might not know.

Melanie Avalon: Our episode show notes have transcripts.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I knew that we were doing it. I saw it through emails when they're sending them, but I didn't know that it was like--

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I'm going to start saying that. When you go to the show notes for today's episode, ifpodcast.com/episode185, there are transcripts.

Gin Stephens: Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: So, if you miss something, I guess people who can't hear will not be listening to this right now. But we did get requests from people who are deaf. So now, they can read it. And yeah.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm so glad.

Melanie Avalon: Yep.

Gin Stephens: All right. Well, are we ready to get started? The first question is a very important one, a doozy, and oh my God, I've been so angry about this whole thing. So, literally angry. Go ahead, read it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Our first question comes from Megan. The subject is "TREAT Clinical Trial." And Megan says, “Hello, ladies. I appreciate your podcast and thorough research and explanations. Can you guys please review and comment on the TREAT clinical trial of intermittent fasting? They found no weight loss in 12 weeks with overweight and obese patients. I'd love your thoughts.”

Gin Stephens: All right. Yeah, I'd be glad to talk about that. First of all, I'm so proud of my community, because I posted an announcement about this the day after it came out and the comment section was just beautiful. So, bravo to all of you in the community, they get it, they understand it, they understand what was wrong with this study. It's not that there's necessarily something wrong with the study, although I definitely have some thoughts about that. But it's the conclusion that made me angry. Okay.

Let me read it. I'm sure everybody's probably seen the headlines, but the name of the study, “Effects of time-restricted eating on weight loss, and other metabolic parameters in women and men with overweight and obesity, the TREAT randomized clinical trial.” Now, I'm not going to tell you anything about the study other than let me read the conclusion to you. If all you read was the title and the conclusion is what I'm trying to get across. Okay, so the title you got what that is. The conclusion is, “Time-restricted eating, in the absence of other interventions, is not more effective in weight loss than eating throughout the day.” I see red every time I read that, that is one sentence. Okay, now, why is this so frustrating? That's when we need to talk about what did they actually do.

Basically, they put people into two groups, okay, and one group for 12 weeks. These were people, men and women, 18 to 64 years old who had a BMI from 27 to 43. So, it's really important to know also that these people were overweight or obese. Every person was overweight or obese. And they put them in two groups. One group was told to eat three structured meals a day, and the other group was told to do 16:8 eating whatever they wanted, ad libitum is scientific words for that. Eat however you want, from noon till 8:00 PM. So, the one group was told eat three meals a day, and the other group was told eat whatever you want in an eight-hour eating window,

Melanie Avalon: And the three meal a day group could have snacking.

Gin Stephens: They could also have snacks if they want, yes. But also, of course, they were not clean fasting, the group that was fasting was not fast and clean. But that's a whole other wrinkle. And so, I'm not even going to get into that right now. But they did 16:8, the participants were overweight and obese, and they did 16:8. And so, I think the conclusion should be time-restricted eating with a 16:8 approach, in the absence of other interventions, is not more effective in weight loss than eating throughout the day. But you know what? I said that in Fast. Feast. Repeat. I have a whole section where I talk about different eating windows, and in that section, I say 16:8 is not enough fasting for weight loss for most of us. I mean it's the approach my husband, who is thin and didn't need to lose weight, it's what he does.

So, I am so irate that they used a study of 16:8, and then generalized it to, “Oh, time-restricted eating doesn't work,” because that is ridiculous. We've got Krista Varady’s research that she did earlier this year and I guess the media can't remember that they just reported about this one in June. Krista Varady, who is a well-respected intermittent fasting researcher-- actually it was July. She found that there was weight loss in a four-hour or six-hour eating window. So, the part that's so frustrating is we've been saying a lot from the beginning all along based on what we see with people who are intermittent fasters that eight hours may not be a short enough feeding window. 16 hours may not be enough fasting. You're not going to flip that metabolic switch, a lot of people. And so, it's just been very frustrating to see the media were like, “Well, it just showed intermittent fasting doesn't work.” That's not what it showed at all. All right. That's my ranting.

Melanie Avalon: You know what else is interesting?

Gin Stephens: What?

Melanie Avalon: It's also interesting that both groups lost weight.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, exactly. And actually, they did lose more. The eight-hour eating window group did lose more, but it wasn't statistically significant. So, there is that little feature as well. But we often see that with people that are overweight and obese, it can take their bodies longer to adjust to intermittent fasting. We know that if you're overweight and obese, you probably have higher fasting insulin levels. So, it's going to take more time for that to correct. I mean there's so many variables here, but the way that the media just gleefully said, “Oh, look, intermittent fasting doesn't work.” Forget about the fact that just two months ago, we had a study that showed it did. Anyway, but then people were freaking out. And I did just say how my community was overall fabulous. But a few people tried to post like, “Oh my God, it doesn't work.” She's like, “I've lost for 40 pounds. But I just saw study that said it doesn't work.” Well, clearly, it worked if you lost 40 pounds, so we've got to really think about this. No one told my body intermittent fasting didn't work when I lost 80 pounds.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and the thing is, I do find the response that's been so passionate and fearful in a way. I can't make objective statements, but I don't really ever see myself becoming fearful or freaking out from a study. It's just information.

Gin Stephens: One of the thing that freaked people out was that they had a little muscle mass loss.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, actually, yeah, we should talk about that.

Gin Stephens: But here's my thought there. First of all, they were not fasting clean, because they were allowed to drink zero-calorie beverages, I'm assuming they had diet sodas, I don't even really know. They even said, for example, only 83% of the fasting group even was compliant. So, I don't even know what that means. Maybe only 83% even did it and it was self-reported. So maybe the compliance was even worse than that. We don't know. But they were not fasting clean. They were not fasting clean, and they were very likely not fat adapted. So, the whole magic, what Dr. Mark Mattson always talks about in his work for the New England Journal of Medicine in his research, flipping that metabolic switch and becoming fat adapted is key, if you want to tap into fat stores, that's part of the metabolic magic, is that being fat adapted.

Melanie Avalon: I was really shocked actually by the muscle mass loss because, yeah, what they found was that the weight loss did seem to be mostly for muscle.

Gin Stephens: And can I tell you, a friend of mine actually emailed Mark Mattson? I did not. I'm scared to reach out to him because I was such a fan.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, wait, wait, wait. This is hysterical. I don't know, because I just feel I'm reaching out to everybody all the time.

Gin Stephens: I just love Mark Mattson so much. Anyway, but my friend, she's a moderator in my group, sent him an email, and he replied, do you want to know what he said?

Melanie Avalon: Maybe I should email him. What did he say?

Gin Stephens: The two major flaws in the JAMA study were that they did not determine calorie intake or diet composition. And they did not track exercise levels. His point, I guess, being that the two groups were so different.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Maybe the eight-hour people were actually eating more. And therefore, it was kind of amazing that they-- you know what I'm saying? We don't know, they might have eaten more food in eight hours.

Melanie Avalon: We don't know. But they could have been eating twice the amount and have comparable-- So, let's say that was the case. This is just hypothetical. But just to play a story game. If they were eating way more, but lost the same or even more, you would have a completely different conclusion sentence. I mean, you could.

Gin Stephens: You surely would, but we don't know because we don't know what they ate. So, really, if they had matched the groups controlled for calories, or given the exact same amount of food, just eating in a different pattern, then you would know. Basically, this study shows that if you tell people eat whatever you want for eight hours, you're not likely to lose weight. But I learned that when I read the eight-hour diet that promised you could and I didn't, it didn't work for me-- So, just to say that again, in case people, I really think this study showed that telling people to eat whatever you want for eight hours is not good for weight loss. That's all it showed.

Melanie Avalon: My version of the study would be like, add in another factor, like eat only whole foods or something and see what happens. I've had James Clement on my show, he wrote a book called The Switch. I'll put a link to that episode in the show notes. But he's really big in this world. And I asked him his thoughts. And he said, basically, something similar to what you just said, you can't just necessarily eat whatever you want for this amount of time and expect weight loss.

Gin Stephens: Although they did lose a little weight. They did lose a little. But they could have been eating twice as much as the other people and we just don't know, that would have been a great study if we knew what they were eating. Of course, self-reporting is always hard. But if they gave them like, “Here's the food you're all going to eat,” like match them in a different way. The variables were not very controlled.

Melanie Avalon: What I want to know is how they did determine estimated energy intake because they did. It's weird, they estimated the energy intake. So, they said, at the end they have a section called Strengths and Limitations, and they say that, “A limitation is we do not have self-reported measures of energy or macronutrient intake. Although we did not measure calorie intake, mathematical modeling of changes in energy intake suggests that calorie intake did not significantly differ between groups. This model has been validated to be more accurate than self-reported energy intake.” I need to like look into this. I don't even know what that is.

Gin Stephens: We didn't count calories, but we used this other method to estimate-- I don't know, that's weird.

Melanie Avalon: The studies that are linked to for that are ones called objective versus self-reported energy intake changes during low carb and low-fat diets. And the second one is validation of an inexpensive and accurate mathematical method to measure long-term changes in free-living energy intake. Listeners, I apologize that I haven't read those yet. I'm going to report back on this. That's interesting. I want to know what this magical mathematical model is that's more valuable than self-reporting.

Gin Stephens: I know that mathematically knows what how much you're eating.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't know. I'm very intrigued. That’s like Santa Claus.

Gin Stephens: Is it riding a unicorn?

Melanie Avalon: I don't know.

Gin Stephens: All right. Now can I also tell you one of the conflicts of interest?

Melanie Avalon: Uh-huh.

Gin Stephens: One of the scientists that was on this is a cofounder and equity stakeholder of a company that is keto. It's a keto company. They sell a breath analyzer for keto and also lots of keto snacks. Yeah, they would have a lot of interest if they're selling you snacks, that they would have an interest in wanting you to not fast because they want to sell you keto snacks. I just thought that was interesting. I didn't even notice that, it was somebody in my group that noticed it, that they had that conflict. Oh, and another one of them, also two of them have connections to that keto group, the keto company. I just think that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: I want to know if-- because I read a lot of the coverages of this, like the articles about it and there have been some interviews with the main guy. They make it sound like he says he's stopping intermittent fasting from what he found, but I want to know if they twisted his words. The way they posited it, I could see how maybe they did but I'm not sure, I don't know, this is just me.

Gin Stephens: How they twisted it?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I mean I can tell you right now, I am 51 years old. I am menopausal, by the way, I'm on the other side. I'm officially there. I'm officially in menopause. I don't even know what words to use. I'm not sure how to say it. I don't have muscle measurement prior to starting intermittent fasting when I was obese versus now. But I'm not sitting here with lack of muscle. I mean I've been doing intermittent fasting since 2014 and I'm not sitting here, this emaciated muscleless old lady. In fact, my Shapa scale that you stand on every morning that I talked about in another episode, estimates my age based on my body composition alone, as 31.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm 51. My Shapa scale this morning said, my Shapa age based on my body composition is 31. So does that sound like--

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to get the Shapa scale.

Gin Stephens: Oh my God, I love it so much. Go to ginstephens.com/favoritethings tab everybody. There's a promo code there. It's IFSTORIES. I love getting on the scale. I just went to the beach, like I said, and you come back from vacation and you probably ate out several times. I got on the scale anyway, I didn't care because I can't see the number. I just got on and got off because I don't have to be tied to a number.

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: I just see my color, but my age was 30 before I went to the beach, and now it's 31. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That is funny.

Gin Stephens: So, I probably have a little water retention, but it doesn't matter. I'm not upset about it. But I am not sitting here like this crazy muscleless 51-year-old person. Anyway, I know I'm just one person, but I don't also have an eight-hour eating window day after day after day and drinking my zero-calorie sodas. I don't. I drink black coffee. I drink plain water. I fast clean. I have a four-ish, five-ish hour eating window. It works great.

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Melanie Avalon: Megan also says, “In general, how do you guys respond in your personal lives when someone uses studies like this to tell you ‘IF is wrong,’ just trying to prepare myself.”

Gin Stephens: I think the key is in really understanding what the study was because when I first saw the headlines, the first person sent me the article saying intermittent fasting doesn't work-- Okay, first of all, we have hundreds of thousands of people that would say otherwise. But I couldn't wait to get my eyes on the actual study. And then, when I read it, I was like, “Well, okay, I'm not surprised at all that they found that out.” In fact, if you had said to me, “Hey, Gin, let me tell you this study design, what do you think they'll find?” I would have not been surprised at that. I would actually really love to work with some scientists. I mean I have a doctorate in gifted education, I know about research design. And I also have a lot of practical experience with intermittent fasters, hundreds of thousands of them. I would love to help someone design a study at a research institute, work with them as a consultant for free. I would just love to do it, help design this study. A study with clean fasting, a study that we can really give them a long period of time. Let's control those variables. I mean, I know how to control variables, my elementary science lab background. I have a master's degree in science education for kids, I did the science fair with kids for years and years and years. Elementary kids know how to control variables better than some of the research studies I've read.

Melanie Avalon: I still think I have the most brilliant idea for an intermittent fasting study. [unintelligible [00:32:45] I think I've said it before, I think it would be a way to completely get rid of the placebo effect. You have to take a pill, like you think the study is about the pill and the qualifications of the pill is it can't be taken with food. And the way it's set up is it'll force you into a window without realizing it. So, you'll be taking pills at certain times, and it'll force you into a window. You think they're testing the pill, but really, they're testing fasting.

Gin Stephens: That's a great idea.

Melanie Avalon: Isn't it?

Gin Stephens: And I also think you should have one more group that doesn't take the pill that-- see if those two groups have any differences. One group that fasts with the pill, one group that fasts without the pill, and then the other group.

Melanie Avalon: A group that knows they're fasting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: But without the pill.

Gin Stephens: Because the pill is also a variable. See, that's the thing. That's the tricky part with people. The pill is also a variable, even though you're doing it-- because maybe the pill’s affecting them some way.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because the way I was thinking it would be two groups and a control group. But the two groups taking the pill, one group because of the timing of when they have to take it, it forces them into an eating window than the other group. Yeah, the other group, it doesn't.

Gin Stephens: But what if the pill itself affects their fast somehow?

Melanie Avalon: That's always the thing.

Gin Stephens: Right. That's why I would have a group that didn't take the pill, just to see.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think would be a really cool study though.

Gin Stephens: Well, anyway, it's just so frustrating to me. I have a listserv that I'm on, is that what it's called? I don't even know, where I get email. It's like an email a summary of obesity. It's like obesity and something, something, whatever. And it's all the studies that relate to obesity and weight loss in any way, shape, or form. And they have a section, study versus headline.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I like that.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. Let me find one and I'll share it with you because it's hilarious, but study versus headline are so funny because really the reports-- here it is, Obesity and Energetics Offerings is the name of it. Okay, so headline versus study. All right, here's a study. Vitamin D deficiency serves as a precursor to stunted growth and central adiposity, I hate to say it, in zebrafish. That was important. The headline was, “Vitamin D deficiency can lead to obesity.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh.

Gin Stephens: Okay. There's one example. All right, let me read another one.

Melanie Avalon: That's ridiculous.

Gin Stephens: I know. Headline versus study. Study, perceived change in physical activity levels and mental health during COVID-19. Findings among adult twin pairs. Headline, researchers perplexed, COVID-19 stress may be hard to beat, even with exercise.

Melanie Avalon: I'd have to read that study.

Gin Stephens: Here's another one. Study, REM sleep stabilizes hypothalamic-- I'm sure I said that wrong-- representation of feeding behavior in mice. Headline, REM sleep affects our eating habits. They just over-generalize, and the way they've portrayed this study is just maddening. And I also saw, I don't know if I'm allowed to say that Jason Fung also responded to you about it. And he's not a fan of the study, either. Right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it was perfect timing, because I had literally just booked him-- or talking to him about booking him for the show. And so, I was like, “I hope you're surviving the TREAT study.” And he said clearly, something about like, that's what happens when you have people who have never--

Gin Stephens: With no clinical experience with intermittent fasting?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, try to design a fasting study.

Gin Stephens: That's why I think that I'd be really good at helping scientists design a fasting study because we really have a lot of anecdotal of what's worked and what hasn't, and what people have tweaked and what has led to success versus when they weren't finding success. So, I know that what we have is not hard science, but it's absolutely valuable. It should not be discounted, just because we're real people in a group. We're people who are trying, and we know what things are working. And it's often not 16:8. That's why I said that in Fast. Feast. Repeat. You may really love 16:8-- because people sell it as like, easy. If only it was just that easy. Just do a 16:8, you're going to lose weight, it's going to be fabulous, eat whatever you want. Except that's not what happens.

Melanie Avalon: I think it can actually make you a million times worse potentially if you are doing 16:8 seeing it as like this binge fast, eat all you want. And then, if you're eating things that are close to my heart, like high seed oils, fats that are wrecking you metabolically, if you're just going to town on those during this time, I mean, I just think it will make things worse.

Gin Stephens: I think eating terribly for eight hours and fasting for 16 could be more detrimental than eating a healthy diet within a more standard like a 12-hour-period.

Melanie Avalon: If I had to choose between those, 200%.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, so a lot of frustration in the intermittent fasting world. Hopefully, the attention span will be short. There'll be something shiny for them to talk about next. And maybe another good study will come out. But, again, replying to Megan, I'm not sure I really answered her question. How do you respond when someone uses studies like this to tell you IF is wrong? You need to be really aware of what the study actually did. Go to the study. Don't just read what the media tells you about the study, read the study. And then, if you're educated, you can start picking out the flaws.

I've mentioned this before. I read a study one time, I read sections of it to fourth graders who were able to find the flaw in the control. Yeah, there was one group that was eating low carb, and one group is eating low fat, but that group was allowed to eat-- I mean, it was ridiculous. It didn't show anything. And the kids are like, “They didn't control that variable.” I'm like, “Yeah, but they used this to prove something.” Anyway. So, do your research, and also, if you know it's working for you and you feel better, trust that. I trust my body, and my body loves this.

Melanie Avalon: You can find a study to pretty much say anything about anything you're doing. And probably, it'll say it's right or it's wrong.

Gin Stephens: It's true.

Melanie Avalon: When it comes to food, at least.

Gin Stephens: It's true.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. This is what I said earlier. I don't have any fear about studies, I literally have zero fear, zero, because if you think about it logically, if the reason it's so terrifying is because it was poorly constructed, or it's not making the right conclusions, or it wasn't-- if there's a reason, then it doesn't matter. Then, there's no reason to fear. If it does show something, okay, there's something to learn from that. There's no reason to be scared. I don't think we should ever be scared of knowledge or questioning or looking at new information. And this is not a good example, because we just talked about how this study is more an example of the first situation where it's not even something to be scared of.

Gin Stephens: You go back to that conclusion. Let me read this again, listeners. The conclusion was, “Time-restricted eating in the absence of other interventions is not more effective in weight loss than eating throughout the day.” And I would just like to say, how many times have we tried weight loss eating throughout the day? And we were able to lose weight, but were we able to keep it off? For me, I lost weight 100 different ways and never one time in my life, did I keep it off until time-restricted eating. So many flaws in that conclusion. I mean, actually maybe 12 weeks of a low-calorie diet where I was eating throughout the day, maybe I would have lost more weight than with time-restricted eating, I don't know. But there's more to it than just head to head, which one makes you lose more weight? Talk to me after you've been doing it for four years, and your fasting insulin levels are normalized and your A1c is normalized and that's really important.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. Exactly. Don't have fear. That's the other thing, if you have fear, you're not going to want to-- I don't think we should be scared of looking at anything, even if it's wrong. Don't have fear. There's no reason not to. And to her question about how do you respond? Gin just said it really well, you can talk about what the study actually showed, what we do know, personal experience, and all of the myriad of other studies that show the complete opposite. So, there's so much research.

Gin Stephens: Yep. All right. Moving on to a question from Jeff.

Melanie Avalon: I knew that was going to be like most of our episode today.

Gin Stephens: I knew it was too. It was important, and I'm sure it made a lot of people out there go, “Ha-ha, I told you so. Intermittent fasting doesn't work.” I mean, “No.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, the next question kind of ties into this as well.

Gin Stephens: I also find, Melanie, that what's so interesting whenever I'm talking to people, and they're like, “Well, I tried intermittent fasting, and it didn't work for me.” Whenever I'm having that conversation with someone, they were not fasting clean, I mean, 100% of the time, I'm like, “Well, what did you drink?” They're like, “Well, I would start my day with coffee with butter and coconut oil. And then, I would have diet sodas, and then I would have a Gatorade Zero.” I'm like, “All right, well, I bet you're starving all the time, weren't you?”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: And they're like, “Yeah.” I'm like, “Well, let me tell you why.”

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Gin Stephens: We have a question from Jeff the subject is “Early is better?” He said, “I listened to Dr. Greger on nutrition facts. He says that eating your calories earlier is better given circadian rhythm and all that. So, I try. And my window is 11:00 to 7:00. I snack from 11 kind of on healthy snacks and then supper time, I pretty much eat what I want, but not too heavy. And then, if I stop eating after seven, I know I'll go to bed with a light belly and all is good. Question I have is do you see value in Dr. Greger’s advice and would you consider sharing that with your listeners. Because of circadian rhythm our bodies metabolize calories differently during the day than overnight.” And that is Dr. Greger’s theory, that's just me saying that, that last part, Jeff wrote it, but he was summarizing Dr. Greger’s theory.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, I'm glad we had this question too because it was one other thing to clarify from the TREAT study that we didn't mention was-- I think it's interesting people's perceptions of early versus late because in the study that we just talked about their window was 12:00 to 8:00. And they were considering that a late window because one of the things they talked about in the end was saying that maybe if it had been an earlier window, so like a breakfast, lunch situation, that the results might have been different, which is interesting. I feel like they probably-- I don't know if it would have been different.

Gin Stephens: For me, it would have been harder to stay compliant. I wonder if they'd have seen their compliance numbers go down from 80. I mean, 83% is not a huge compliance amount.

Melanie Avalon: The reason they said that they wanted to do 12:00 to 8:00 was they thought people would be more compliant because it was easier to skip breakfast, and, yeah, skip dinner. But I just thought was also interesting because Jeff is doing a very similar window. He's doing 11:00 to 7:00 instead of 12:00 to 8:00, but he's considering that an early window.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that is true. Good point.

Melanie Avalon: And for me, that would be an early window.

Gin Stephens: Me too. I'm not hungry at 11:00.

Melanie Avalon: I can't even say when I eat because people would freak out.

Gin Stephens: It's 2:00, and I'm not even hungry. 11:00 is like so early to me, though.

Melanie Avalon: I know. It really is. Yes, we've talked about this a little bit before. The main takeaways or the basic idea here at least, and this is just my opinion, but there is a lot of research looking at early versus late night eating. A lot of that research has people still eating though throughout the whole day. So, what happens is by the time evening comes, they have eaten earlier. So, it's not like they were fasting and then ate in the evening. Usually, it's just more weighted towards one side.

Gin Stephens: Can I clarify what you're saying? I know exactly what you mean. What you're saying is some of these studies show that later in the day, insulin sensitivity is worse, but they've been eating all day. So, it might have to do with the length of the time period that they were eating. If you eat for 12 hours, 14 hours in a row, later in that eating day, your insulin sensitivity is wrong. And it's not time of day that's the problem. The problem is that you've been eating all day.

Melanie Avalon: Because when you've been fasting, you're pretty insulin sensitive. If you're fasting all day and then you have a late eating time, you're probably going to be insulin sensitive. The times you're not insulin sensitive is if you've also been eating earlier.

Gin Stephens: We really need a study with the early window and a late window with all other variables being equal, which is what we don't have. A really good study. There's some study-- there is one that I've read, and they did do that, but it was very short, and they found no difference.

Melanie Avalon: I did find one. I think it's when we talked about on the show before and it actually did-- I'd have to revisit it, but it was controlled. And it did look at this and it did seem to find that early was better.

Gin Stephens: Is that the one though where they ate longer and the light one?

Melanie Avalon: It was the one with shift workers and they were trying to figure out if insulin and all of that, was it adapting to like the pattern of the eating or was it literally from like the circadian rhythm of the world, and it seemed to be from the circadian rhythm. At the beginning, it would adapt differently to the person.

Gin Stephens: Were they eating like in the middle of the night?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: See, that's a whole different variable also.

Melanie Avalon: It's been a while since I read it.

Gin Stephens: That is a completely different variable that to me, doesn't show anything because we know that shift work itself is an issue. You're waking and your sleeping at different times so there's more than just the eating is at a different time. Yeah, I don't think I would draw any conclusions from that.

Melanie Avalon: These are my personal thoughts, and this is not based on any one study. This is just--

Gin Stephens: Because we don't have one. We don't have a good one.

Melanie Avalon: This is just based on the collective literature that I've read to date, including a lot of Dr. Greger’s work, which I have talked about this before. I love reading his books because I get exposed to so many studies because he footnotes like every other sentence. That said, it's not-- Gin was getting upset in the beginning, now it's my turn to get upset.

Gin Stephens: Get upset, get upset.

Melanie Avalon: That said the overwhelming amount of cherry-picking that I perceive that he does, and misrepresentation of studies is very upsetting. And I think because he cites so many studies so constantly, he comes off as very authoritative and very like, “Oh, he knows what he's talking about because he just quoted the entirety of scientific literature and has references to it.” And I think a lot of people just take that at face value rather than going and looking and seeing what he's citing. A lot of it is spot on. Some of it is not spot on. Some of it's completely misinterpreted. But the main thing is he really, really just pulls the studies to support his primarily plant-based paradigm, doesn't represent the rest of the literature in my opinion. And I'm saying that as in kind of a way as I can, but that's just-- I don’t know how to say that. That's the sense I get.

The final thought is he also tries to make it very clear that he doesn't cherry-pick. He says that all the time. So, it's a little bit frustrating. That said, from everything that I've read and seen, I actually do think, I don't know, because the study hasn't been done. But I actually do think if everything was controlled, I actually think it'd be better for people eating earlier rather than later. I do.

Gin Stephens: And by better, you mean better with your physiology?

Melanie Avalon: Metabolically, yeah. I think it would probably be better for insulin, hormones, and sleep.

Gin Stephens: See, I can't sleep when I have an early window. I absolutely can't sleep when I have an early window. Have you ever tried it? Have you tried having an early window?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's always an epic fail. Which brings me to my second point.

Gin Stephens: But were you able to sleep?

Melanie Avalon: The reason I do think so is the best sleep I ever have is on those days when for some reason-- I mean, true. It's usually because I'm sleep deprived, so I need a nap. But it's like, when I take a nap and I'm in the fasted state, there's just something-- I don't know, I feel if I could fall asleep in the fasted state, and I don't mean severely fasted, but I don't know. I think if the body could be not digesting during these precious sleep regulating-- or during the part of our sleep, where we're supposed to be doing repair and all this stuff and not completely in the fed state, I think it would probably be more beneficial. I just personally is, what you just said, I can't really sleep on an empty stomach.

The second part of all this was, while I think in theory if you can magically force yourself into an early window versus a later window, while I think the early window would probably be better, I think practically a large percent of people, the way they can implement it, and stick to it, and keep to the eating window and get the benefits and sleep and do all these things is with a later eating window. And I think that practicality of it far, far, far outweighs any hypothetical concept of having it in the morning versus the evening.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and it's all theoretical again. I've yet to see a long-term, well-designed study with all variables that were controlled, and they weren't eating in the middle of the night as shift workers work because that's a whole extra variable. I've yet to see one that was well designed and long term. The one really short one that we have, they found no difference.

Melanie Avalon: I'll have to double-check that one because I don't really remember the details.

Gin Stephens: Okay, but all this to say, I know people, personally, one of my moderator friends, she has a breakfast eating window. She wakes up, she eats breakfast, she closes her window by 11:00 or 12:00, and she feels best that way. She sleeps better when she does that. That 100% works better for her body. And so, that's the thing. Just because Melanie and I do better with a later window-- and my window is shifted earlier than Melanie's. I've been opening my window lately more around 2:00 or 3:00 a lot of days. And since I'm not drinking right now, closing my window at dinnertime, so no more after 7:00 because I'm not finishing up a glass of wine or anything. So, instead of having a window that's more like 4:00 to 9:00, it's more like 2:00 to 7:00. And that's feeling really good for me right now. But I wouldn't call that an early window, or a late window. It's just like a dinner hour.

Melanie Avalon: To me, it would be so early!

Gin Stephens: Yeah. See?

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. Which is a good example of how-- I'm like an extreme case scenario.

Gin Stephens: Also, how my window has shifted over time. And honestly, it was later because of wine. It was my wine window. By the way, I'm sleeping so great. Sleeping so great. I had wine the other day. I had a couple glasses of wine, and I didn't feel as well. I'm not going to never drink again but--

Melanie Avalon: I'm not going to never not drink again.

Gin Stephens: Well, good.

Melanie Avalon: No, that's not true. I mean, I don't anticipate going completely sober for a year and a half. By sober I mean, like not drinking.

Gin Stephens: I went to the beach last week and didn't drink the whole time I was there. And I had just as much fun. I worried about that because I thought back and from even when I was a child, my mother and watching the adults with their cocktails, and that's how they relax, that's how they had fun. Then, I went to college, and it just became internalized like, “Oh, if we're having fun, if we're at the beach, if we're at a party, we've got to have alcohol, that's what you do.” So, I was like, “Alright,” well, this is the first time I ever in my entire life, went to the beach with a friend and did not drink alcohol the whole time. Which sounds crazy, but it's true. I mean ever since I've been an adult. I mean I was like 12 years old at the beach with a friend not drinking. But I mean as a grownup who legally can drink. I drove everywhere. I didn't have to take Uber. That was really nice. I just drove and at a restaurant, I got club soda with a splash of cranberry and some lime. And I felt like I was having a cocktail. I had just as much fun. I didn't feel like I missed a thing. It was very eye opening. I just drank because I felt like it's what you did. And I also slept so much better at the beach, anyway.

We're all so different. We really, really are. That's the point. You do great with the wine. I don't do as great. I still love it. I'm still going to have it here and there. But never, never again, like as a day-to-day part of my life, I think. I think I can safely say that. I'm never going to have a daily glass of wine.

Melanie Avalon: And I think I probably will or like a quarter of a glass at least. I've said this before, but to clarify when I was-- the year and a half, I actually was still having like a tablespoon of liquid wine.

Gin Stephens: I just can't imagine having a tablespoon of wine.

Melanie Avalon: Like a sip. Just a sip, as a medicine or something.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I get it. I really love wine. I love it.

Melanie Avalon: If listeners do drink wine, drink the only wine I drink, which is Dry Farm Wines.

Gin Stephens: Dry Farm Wines, I'm a fan. It's the only wine I will drink from now on for the rest of my life. I can say that 100% because if I'm somewhere and they have just standard one, I'd rather drink zero. Nothing.

Melanie Avalon: I was thinking about this. I haven't been like-- I don't know if bars are even open right now. But I haven't been out to like a bar.

Gin Stephens: They are.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I haven't been out in that type of setting in quite a while. And now I'm like, “What will I do if I--"

Gin Stephens: Caveat, they are where I am.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they are here too, I think. Actually, there's one bar I really want to go to where I think they have some sort of like-- they were the first one in Atlanta to have an air COVID-purifying system thing.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know how that actually works. But I was like, “Oh, that sounds exciting.” Oh, yeah, I think we talked about this and it's a speakeasy, which they don't have in Augusta.

Gin Stephens: I don't know if we talked about that on the air or off the air. I think it was off the air.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I had just as much fun having my club soda with a splash of cranberry. I felt like I was drinking a cocktail. And I had just as much fun. So, it's a new chapter. The first time I go anywhere with my college friends and I'm like, “I'm going to have club soda with cranberry.” They're going to be like, “What!?”

Melanie Avalon: That is a nice thing. You can order that, and if you don't say that it's not a drink--

Gin Stephens: I don't care if people think I'm drinking or not drinking or anything. I want to feel good, that's what I've come to terms with. And so, I feel better when I don't drink. And that's crazy to me because drinking has been part of my life. 30 years, I've been drinking legally.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners who do want to drink, you can go to dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and get a bottle for a penny.

Gin Stephens: You sure can and I highly recommend it. I highly recommend it!

Melanie Avalon: Me too.

Gin Stephens: Even though, so. I'm definitely not anti-drinking, or anti-people who want to drink around me, but I didn't feel like I was missing out, that was the part that was crazy. Other people were drinking around me, my friend was drinking. We had another moderator friend that came down to spend a night with us. There were three of us. They both opened a bottle of Cava.

Melanie Avalon: Like Kava-kava? Did they brew it?

Gin Stephens: Well, Spanish wine. Am I saying it wrong? C-A-V-A? Is it Cava? I don't know. It's a Spanish sparkling wine?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I thought you're talking about kava-kava, like the tea.

Gin Stephens: Oh, no. This was Spanish sparkling wine. Yeah, they were drinking Spanish sparkling white wine. They call it Cava, isn't that how they say it? Anyway, whatever. However, they say it I've only seen it written and never heard anyone say it as far as I know. But they were drinking it in champagne glasses right there in my condo. And I was like, “I don't even want to have it. I'm going to drive us to dinner. I'll be fine.” And I was like, I've never driven to dinner at the beach because we always are drinking. It was very different. So, anyway, I liked it.

Melanie Avalon: So, good times.

Gin Stephens: It is good times. We had a really good time.

Melanie Avalon: Well, for listeners, the show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode185. Those show notes will have transcripts. So, definitely check that out. If you'd like to submit your own questions to the podcast, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I'm @melanieavalon, Gin's @ginstephens. And I think that is it. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Talk to you then.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Gin Stephens: Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Oct 25

Episode 184: Dual Sleep, Cold Coffee Causing Nausea, Vagus Nerve Toning, Biohacking, Protein Intake, Human Growth Hormone And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 184 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

Listener Q&A Follow Up: Emily - Shift Work And Weightloss

Go To melanievalon.com/sleepremedy And Use The Code MELANIEAVALON For 10% Off!

Go To blublox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

Listener Q&A Follow Up: Megan - Iced Coffee Vs Hot Coffee

Ami Brannon (Xen By Neuvana): Vagus Nerve Toning, Meditation Alternatives, The Mind/Body Connection, Rebalance Your Body, Lasting Stress Relief, Neuroplasticity, Polyvagal Theory, And More!

Listener Q&A Follow Up: Paula - IF

The Immunity Code: The New Paradigm for Immune Centric Health and Radical Anti-Aging (Joel Greene)

Cyrus Khambatta, PHD and Robby Barbaro MPH – The Benefits Of High Carb Low Fat, Mastering Diabetes, Blood Sugar And Insulin Regulation, Saturated Fat Problems, Mixed Meals, Glycogen Storage Potential, Low Carb Issues, And More!

Dr. Dave Rabin (Apollo Neuro): Stop Stress With Sound Wave Therapy, The Power Of Safety, Healing Hugs, Combatting Fear, Parasympathetic Vs Sympathetic States, Making Change, Flow States, And More!

Get 15% Off Apollo Neuro At apolloneuro.com/melanieavalon

Listener Q&A Follow Up: Carol - Determining Adequate Intake and IF/HGH

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 184 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of our sponsors, Prep Dish. Prep Dish is changing the way thousands of families do mealtime. Here's how it works. Prep Dish thoughtfully crafts a week's worth of gluten-free and paleo meals that feature seasonal ingredients to make the most of your budget, save you time, and surprise your taste buds. You may be thinking, but we aren't gluten free or paleo. Well, when I have used Prep Dish, my family didn't even notice that the meals were gluten free because they are based on real food ingredients and the meals were delicious. There's also a keto plan if that's what you're looking for.

When you join Prep Dish, along with the weekly menu, you'll get a printable grocery list and instructions for prep day. Just two hours of preparation yields scrumptious, good-for-you dishes all week long. You shop once, prep once.

When you join, not only do you have access to this week's menu, but you can choose from past week menus. The dilemma of what's for dinner is solved forever. Go to prepdish.com/ifpodcast for your free trial. Yep, it's totally free. And once you see how easy it makes your life, you won't know what you did without it. That's prepdish.com/ifpodcast. And now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that what you put on your skin gets direct access to your bloodstream and in your body can do a lot of detrimental things? So, while you may be fasting clean, you may at the same time be infusing your body with endocrine disrupters, which can mess with your hormones, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight and even carcinogens.

In Europe, they've banned thousands of these compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup, and the US has banned less than 10. In fact, most conventional lipstick for example is high in lead. And the half-life of lead in the body can be up to 30 years. That means every time you put on some lipstick, you might be putting some lead into your bones, which might not leave for three decades. This is a big deal.

Thankfully, there's an easy all-encompassing answer. There's a company called Beautycounter, and they were founded on a mission to make skincare and makeup products that are safe for your skin. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to not burden your body and support your skin health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd like to learn more about safe beauty and also get a ton of amazing discounts and free things from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. Not sure which Beauty Counter products to try? I also just made a whole series of online quizzes to match you to your perfect product. Those are at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. So, here's the fasting clean inside and out.

All right, now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 184 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm sitting here drinking hot water in a mug, so you know how I am.

Melanie Avalon: It's warm again, though.

Gin Stephens: It's not warm here.

Melanie Avalon: Really?

Gin Stephens: Well, okay, it's warmer, but it's very cloudy, and it is warmer than it had been. But my feet were cold. I'm wearing short sleeves and cropped jeans. And so, I guess I was walking around the house. Our house has a very cold floor. I think I said that last time. So, my feet got cold, so I was getting something to drink to take into the podcast studio, and I said I think I want hot water.

Melanie Avalon: I'm sorry that you're struggling.

Gin Stephens: That's all right. Yeah. Going to the beach next week and I think I'm going to take my Uggs.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my goodness.

Gin Stephens: I don't even know if Uggs are still in style, but I don't care because they're so cozy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, see, I don't like shoes that are enclosed like that.

Gin Stephens: I don't like shoes that you have to wear socks with.

Melanie Avalon: Ugh, me neither.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, so I'm great with barefoot season. I'm great with flip-flops and sandals. I can wear Uggs because you don't have to wear socks, and I can also wear Mini-tonka, what are they moccasins? Because you don't have to wear socks. But I don't do well with socks.

Melanie Avalon: I don't like socks. We have something in common.

Gin Stephens: Yay! My feet like to be free. So, anyway.

Melanie Avalon: I haven't actually been outside yet today, so I don't know if it's--

Gin Stephens: We went and ran some errands. It just is the gross-feeling cloudy, fall day. It's not one of those beautiful, crisp fall days. It's just a yucky, kind of wet-- It's not cold, it's probably 78 degrees. So, people are going to be laughing at me. But it's dreary. 78 and sunny is very different than 78 and a wet, cloudy.

Melanie Avalon: This is true.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's very humid. It's very, very humid and cloudy. It's like a sticky kind of cloudy,

Melanie Avalon: I actually got happy that it was humid and sticky for a very random reason because normally I don't like that. Remember how I had the flood in my apartment?

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: The apartment people are just not pulling it together. They're not fixing it. They're not doing mold testing or whatever. So, I was like, "I'm just going to do my own mold testing." So, I had a service come and I scheduled it. And then for like, the two days before it was raining. So, I turned off, because I want it to come back positive.

Gin Stephens: So, they have to fix it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I was like, “What can I do to like maximize mold?" So, been turning off all my air purifiers and was like, “Let the moisture come.” So, they came, we'll see. They did air tests, which are apparently the most valid form of testing.

Gin Stephens: I would like you to have no mold and then not have to do any mold remediation.

Melanie Avalon: Right. That would be ideal. But I mean, either way, I'll get it dealt with. So, yeah. I will just say, friends, if you at all are suspicious about mold, please check for it. I lived in a moldy apartment for two years. And I think it like-- if you're susceptible to it-- if it has an effect on your body, it can really have an effect on your body.

Gin Stephens: I think so.

Melanie Avalon: Well, on that deary note, shall we-- just want to jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yep, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off, we have a slight follow-up, something that we said we would get back to last time, which I feel like every time we do that we don't always get back to it, but we're getting back to it. So, yay. Emily had asked us about her shiftwork weight loss, intermittent fasting, like crazy sleep schedule, where she would sleep from 10:00 PM to 2:00 AM, do a paper route from 2:00 to 4:00 AM, and then sleep from 4:00 to 7:00 AM, which was a very crazy sleep schedule. We had talked about the fascinating-- Was it mid-Victorian people?

Gin Stephens: I think in general just it being like the-- I've just read articles that indicated that's how they lived. Medieval times, or I don't know, that was the natural way to be.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so they would go to sleep and then wake up and then go to sleep. So, I asked the resident sleep expert, Dr. Kirk Parsley, who I've had on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. I asked him about it, and he obviously knew everything about it. He said it was called dual sleep, and it occurred roughly 22 longitudinal above or below the equator. And it was because nights were 10 to 12 hours at night. The people would sleep in two halves of the night, and they would wake up in the middle to do activities and hang out while the kids were still asleep. So, that's different than today where we're only sleeping-- we're lucky if we're sleeping eight hours. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because I think we were contemplating that. We were like, “Oh, so maybe this is a good thing.” It's not an ideal situation. That situation would be if you were sleeping like-- if it was like a 12-hour night and you're waking up in the middle. I think our original answer still stands about that schedule.

Gin Stephens: Because they slept from dark to dark. That was the difference. Those people were sleeping from dark to dark and that was too much sleep.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, probably.

Gin Stephens: So, they would wake up in the middle and then have their second half of the--

Melanie Avalon: That makes sense.

Gin Stephens: But you know what, my body is still tuned to that. I swear, I could live that way because as soon as it starts to get dark, I want to go to bed. I don't care if that's 9:30 at night or 5:30 at night. If it's dark, I want to get into bed. I probably should start just doing that. Go to bed, wake up in the middle of the night, get up--

Melanie Avalon: [laughs]

Gin Stephens: --do some stuff, go back to bed. I think that might be my natural-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Let us know how that goes.

Gin Stephens: Might be my natural way of being.

Melanie Avalon: I might still be awake in that time when you wake up because you would go to bed-- so like when does it get dark? You would go to bed at like?

Gin Stephens: 5:00, if it's the wintertime.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so you would sleep from 5:00 to like?

Gin Stephens: 11:00.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and then you could wake up and then we could hang out.

Gin Stephens: And then, have my second night sleep.

Melanie Avalon: And then, we could both go back to bed at the same time.

Gin Stephens: I swear, I would probably feel great doing that.

Melanie Avalon: We could do the podcast then, in the middle of the night!

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'd have to have an earlier window, I'd have to shift it.

Melanie Avalon: So, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Coming to you from Gin's biphasic sleep!

Melanie Avalon: And my normal sleep and my normal awake. That's so funny. But sleep is huge. And I will do a quick plug for Dr. Parsley’s Sleep Remedy. They have an unflavored version of it that is fast friendly, and it basically has all of the substrates that your brain naturally needs to fall asleep. So, it's not a pharmaceutical, doesn't knock you out or affect your sleep quality. It just makes your brain naturally fall asleep. I think you can get it for 10% off at sleepremedy.com/melanieavalon.

Gin Stephens: And the version of it that I have is a capsule.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's a capsule. They have drinks as well. So, you can get it for 10% off at melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy with the coupon, MelanieAvalon. And then, yeah, they do have the drinks as well. And they're coming out with a kid's formulation soon. So, that's pretty exciting. But, yeah, sleep is super important. I feel I keep reading everywhere that, out of everything honestly, diet, lifestyle, exercise, sleep, sleep is probably the most important. It's hard to say one's more important than the other.

Gin Stephens: But sleep is so key. Like fasting is so good for us because it's healing, sleep is where, I don’t know it's where our brains are healing. Not sleeping is like eating all the time as far as the effects it has. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It's where so many key processes happen that keep you functional okay and alive, and everything important really seems to happen while you're sleeping.

Gin Stephens: I'm realizing the importance of keeping it so dark. Now, we're getting ready to take another step in the bedroom. I mentioned recently how stupid it was that I didn't realize that our shades needed to be and our curtains need to be drawn. And that made a huge difference. But now, the light from the little satellite TV--

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, if there's just one little light, it's huge.

Gin Stephens: Well, I recently took away the alarm clock light because we had the dimmest one you could get. I would like someone to invent-- I've just invented it. But someone else can invent it and then just send me one. A clock that goes dark. I want to have be able to look over and see what time it is only if it is after 5:30 in the morning. I don't want to roll over and see that it's 2:00 AM. I want it to automatically be dark.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if that exists, do you think it does?

Gin Stephens: I couldn't find one. I looked. I want it to automatically be dark. I've seen something like that for kids where they show a time when it's okay to get up, like you get a green light if it's okay to get up. But I want zero light, I don't want to roll over and see that it's 1:30 and then it's 3:00, and then it's 3:30.

Melanie Avalon: What if you do on that you've like-- it's always dark, but touching it makes it light up?

Gin Stephens: I don't want to touch anything. My phone does that. I can pick my phone up and look at the time. But I want it to just come on at 5:30 in the morning, then I can see its time and be completely dark after that. But now, since I turned the clock off, now, I'm noticing the satellite light is so bright. I think we're going to change our TV providers, so it's darker, and just go with a Hulu kind of streaming.

Melanie Avalon: Or you could just not have your TV in the bedroom.

Gin Stephens: Well, with that, my husband likes to watch TV before going to sleep at night. And I actually fall asleep with him watching TV, then he turns the TV off. So, that works really well. But he likes to wind down with that TV, and I fall right to sleep with the TV on while he's watching TV. And then, he turns it off.

Melanie Avalon: I mean I obviously have been saying from day one, like how important it is to be like all blackout. But I really, really, really realized the importance of that recently because when I had the surgery on my face, and I still can't wear-- so we're not sponsored by BLUblox today, but we talk about BLUblox blue light blocking glasses a lot. And they have a Sleep Remedy Mask, I think is what it's called. And it's the only mask I've had that completely blocks out like all light. It's incredible. And it doesn't touch your eyes. It's the most brilliant engineering.

Gin Stephens: It's like cups over your eyes. I cannot sleep with something around my head. I wake up in the middle of night and rip it off my head. I don't like hats. I don't like headbands. I don't like hair clothes. I can't wear my hair in a ponytail. I've got a head thing. I don't wear sunglasses. I can't wear anything on my face. I wear my blue blockers when watching TV, but I can only handle it for a short period of time.

Melanie Avalon: Well, for those who can handle it.

Gin Stephens: I'm a special snowflake.

Melanie Avalon: For those who can handle it. Yeah, it's what Gin said. There's no pressure on your eyes at all. It's soft and goes around your eyes and you can completely open your eyes when it's on, and it's completely blackout.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, the ones I had were like that, but I just couldn't have it on my head.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so I couldn't wear them for quite a while after the surgery. And literally the first day, I could wear it again, I slept through the night for the first time in a long time, at least since the surgery and I was like, "Wow, this is huge." I have the really intense hotel blackout curtains, but there is a tiny bit of light that comes in that I can't quite get rid of.

Gin Stephens: Or under the door of our bedroom. We accidentally left the lights on in the living room. I guess I thought Chad was turning them off, he thought I was. We just had the door closed. And I woke up in the middle of the night. I think I thought it was sunrise coming under the door. But it was the lights in the living room. It is huge, my brain really, yep, I need to have it dark. So, I'm working on it, changing my TV provider to make it darker. But getting rid of the alarm clock made a huge difference, completely, but then I could see the other lights, but sleep is really that important.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it is. So resources for listeners, Sleep Remedy. That's at melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy with the coupon, MelanieAvalon. And for BLUblox, if you like the blue light blocking glasses or the Sleep REMedy Mask, they're two completely different companies but they both use the word sleep and remedy in the title, that is at blublox.com and the coupon, IFPODCAST, gets you, I think 10-- it might be 15%, it's 10% or 15% off. For everything that you buy there, they donate need a pair of glasses to somebody in need, which is pretty nifty. So, shall we jump into our questions?

Gin Stephens: Yes. We have a question from Megan. And the subject is "Iced Coffee Versus Hot Coffee." “Hi, M&G.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's a new one.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. M for Melanie, G for Gin, in case people thought, they're like, “What's M&G?” Emoji.

Melanie Avalon: Like in the alphabet, elemenopee.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. There you go. “Love your work. I'm curious about whether you could offer some insight into black coffee served hot versus iced. I noticed that iced coffee, both cold brew and otherwise, makes me nauseous. I have tried making it myself and I've ordered it from multiple places. Don't worry, always black. But I really noticed I'm nauseous for it.” I can't say that word nauseous is really how you say it, but I always read it wrong. Naa-shus, nau-shus. “I have never had a problem with hot coffee. Thanks for your thoughts.”

Melanie Avalon: Well, Megan, thank you for your question. So, my initial thoughts are that warm things, they stimulate digestion. Basically, cold can be a shock to your system. And that's really the only thing I can think of. I know it's not much help.

Gin Stephens: Well, I had a theory and it's not true.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? What was your theory?

Gin Stephens: I feel nauseated if I have tea on an empty stomach. I've heard people say it's the tannins in the tea. And coffee has tannins as well. So, my theory was that perhaps iced coffee had more tannins than the hot, but that is not true. Cold brew has fewer tannins than hot brew. So, my theory was nothing. Yes, fewer tannins. And really, that makes sense because the tannins probably add to the bitterness and we know that cold brew takes out some of the bitterness. So now, my theory, I understand why I was wrong.

Melanie Avalon: So, you learned something.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I would just stick to the hot coffee. I don't know why.

Melanie Avalon: I guess the question would be, do other cold drinks make you nauseous? If any cold drink makes you nauseous, then it's the temperature, it's the cold. If they don't--

Gin Stephens: Then we got nothing.

Melanie Avalon: --then there's something-- and then some combination of the cold and the coffee.

Gin Stephens: I can think of one thing that is possible. I've talked before about how Nitro cold brew doesn't work for me because my brain perceives it as sweet. Maybe the cold brew is being perceived by your brain as sweet and you're having a blood sugar crash making you nauseous. I don't know. That's a bit of a stretch.

Melanie Avalon: I think it might involve the vagus nerve, probably. Megan, check out my interview that I did on the vagus nerve at melanieavalon.com/vagusnerve with Ami Brannon who's the creator of a company called Xen by Neuvana. They make a vagus nerve toning device, but the vagus nerve, it's also called the wandering nerve and it's this cranial nerve that extends to every single system in our body with the exception of our thyroid and adrenals, I believe. But it's super, super involved in digestion and it's interpreting things like temperature, food digestion, and it's attached directly to the brain. So, it's the reason that how anxiety or mood or all of this stuff so intensely affects our digestion. A lot of it goes back to that. And it's also involved in things like fainting, which is not different-- not the same thing as s being nauseated, but I would bet at the vagus nerve thing being activated by temperature, that would just be my guess.

Something you could try would be doing activities to "tone" your vagus nerve or tried the Zen by Neuvana device and see if that affects how you respond to the coffee if you're that-- if you're really invested. Fun times.

Gin Stephens: All right.

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All right, now back to the show.

The next question comes from Paula. The subject is "IF." Paula says, “I'm curious why intermittent fasting has very little impact on my weight. I do 16 hours' fast every day with calorie and carbohydrate restriction. It's not easy. I'm ravenous all the time.” She says, “I don't have energy and I feel depressed.” Thank you, Paula.

Gin Stephens: Well, there's two pieces of information I wish I knew. One, how long has she been doing this? That's so key because let's just forget about the part that I'm going to talk about in a minute, the calorie and carbohydrate restriction, pretend she didn't say that. And all she said was 16 hours is not working for her because she's not losing weight. It's not easy, she's hungry. If she's early in, then clearly, she's not fat adapted because that's how you feel before you're fat adapted. And 16 hours may not be enough fasting for people to become fat-adapted if they are eating a lot during their eight-hour eating window. So, you could do 16-hour fast every single day, never become fat-adapted and then, your fast is going to be harder. Because the reason my fast is easy, is because my body has flipped that metabolic switch. So, in Fast. Feast. Repeat., I really go into details about this. Look for that chapter in Fast. Feast. Repeat.

Now, Paula gives us a little bit of information there that she is also doing calorie and carbohydrate restriction. So, I think Paula is going through what would happen with someone on a low-calorie diet. She's not fasting long enough really with 16 hours to really get that metabolic boost from really tapping into fat stores efficiently. But then, she's not fueling up very well because she's doing calorie restriction during the feeding time. So, what I would recommend, Paula, first of all, I would maybe have a few refeed days, just no fasting, just eat. Because you should not be feeling ravenous, you should not be depressed, you should not have low energy. Those are all things-- being ravenous all the time, having no energy, feeling depressed, that's how the guys felt when they were going through the Minnesota Starvation Experiment when they were not well fueled. So, those are all key signs of overdieting. So, stop. Give yourself a week, two weeks, just don't count anything, don't fast, just eat, I don't know. You should want to get your body feeling it's feeling good again. Don't weigh yourself in that time.

Then, you might want to try-- maybe read the 28-Day FAST Start on Fast. Feast. Repeat and then ease yourself in. I would do the ease-in approach, take it gentle. You do not want to do calorie and carbohydrate restriction at the same time. I wouldn't recommend anybody do fasting and then also trying to do really low-calorie dieting at the same time, it's fast, feast, repeat. Not fast, low-calorie diet, repeat. We want our bodies to feel well fed, we want to be well nourished. Once you get past the adjustment phase, and you know your body is fat adapted, if you ever start feeling ravenous all the time, your energy is low and you're depressed, that's a sign that what you're doing is really, really wrong for your body. Also, carbohydrate restriction can lead to depression for some people. Carbohydrates, our brain serotonin, I read a book. Did you ever read Potatoes Not Prozac, Melanie? Have you ever heard of that book?

Melanie Avalon: I've heard of it. I haven't read it.

Gin Stephens: I might have mentioned it. I'm not sure. I can't remember the credentials of the person who wrote it. Maybe she was a psychiatrist. I can't remember, it's been a long time. She talked about having a hit of carbs, like a potato, at night before you go to bed and that really helped with mood. So, that could be a factor right there as well. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: You basically hit on all of it. I was zoning in on the fasting, the calorie, and the carb restriction. All of that at the same time is not the game plan to take, especially when you're first starting intermittent fasting.

Gin Stephens: But we don't know she might have been doing this a long time, in which case her body is really fighting back.

Melanie Avalon: True. Very true. Yeah, because it's so key. One of the things that makes intermittent fasting so magical is that when you have the feasting period, that's sending all of the signals to your body that make the fast in a way work even better because you need that feast period to send those signals to start the repair processes, start the growth and recovery, and make the body not feel it's in a state of perpetual starvation. So, then it's more willing in a way to enter the fasted state when you do fast, because it's not-- what's the word when anthropomorphizing? I'm giving--

Gin Stephens: Anthropomorphism.

Melanie Avalon: I'm doing that right now, even though it is your body, but maybe somebody is following who's listening to me right now. So, then your body enters the fast. If you don't have that feasting period, it's going to think that it's in a perpetual state of starvation. And so, the fast metabolism is going to be massively downregulated, you're going to feel starving, you're going to feel ravenous, it's really, really important to have that feasting period. I mentioned it last time, I'm reading Joel Greene's The Immunity Code, which is just blowing my mind, blowing my mind! But he talks a lot about this as well. I like Gin's idea about having some refeed days, and then reevaluating your whole plan about all this. Ironically, maybe fasting longer, but when the eating window--

Gin Stephens: Alternate daily fasting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Like a 36:12.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to suggest rather than start jumping into that, because I even get freaked out by that, and I've been fasting for a long time. And that's just me, I know some people do really well with it. I was saying, I feel like the first step would just be maybe fasting longer and not restricting calories in your window.

Gin Stephens: What do you mean by fasting longer? That's what I'm confused by.

Melanie Avalon: Instead of a 16-hour fast--

Gin Stephens: Oh, okay. I get it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so maybe doing a one meal a day, or feeling free to fast longer than 16 hours, so maybe fasting 18, 20 hours. But then, when you eat, no restriction, carb restriction maybe if those are the macros that your body does well on, but definitely not the calorie restriction.

Gin Stephens: And it really may not be. There's a common thought in many intermittent fasting communities that if you're not also doing low carb with fasting, you're doing it wrong, but that's not true. Both Melanie and I have shown with our own personal experience that we do great with plenty of carbs and the intermittent fasting. So, if you definitely don't do well with carbs, that's one thing, but if you just are avoiding carbs, because you think you should, that's a whole different thing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 100%.

Gin Stephens: I've got one of my moderator friends who was low carb for years and years and years and years and struggled, struggled, struggled. Before she was a moderator, she was just a person in the group and I gave her the advice, I'm like, “Well, then try carbs, experiment with carbs.” And she thought I was crazy. She's like, “Everybody knows low carb is 'better' for weight loss.” But she added carbs back, and then went on to get to her ideal weight very easily.

Melanie Avalon: 100%. Definitely check out the interview, and I'm not completely saying to do the diet they follow. But if you want more about the science of all of that, check out my interview that I did with Cyrus and Robbie who wrote Mastering Diabetes. It's a mind-blowing episode. It's at melanieavalon.com/masteringdiabetes. I know I told you, Gin, but I don't know if I said on the podcast that I'm bringing on Dr. Doug Graham, who wrote The 80/10/10 Diet. I told you that, right?

Gin Stephens: I can't remember.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited!

Gin Stephens: What are his 80/10/10?

Melanie Avalon: 80/10/10 is the macros that are 80% carbs, 10% protein, 10% fat.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I could not do that diet. I could not eat that way. No, no, no.

Melanie Avalon: And he's fruitarian, mostly.

Gin Stephens: I need fat. I need fat.

Melanie Avalon: I need protein. Actually, our next question is about this a little bit.

Gin Stephens: I need protein too, but less protein. I need adequate protein. Someone was asking about this today. I'm sure we'll get to that with the protein question, but my body lets me know when I need more protein.

Melanie Avalon: Me too.

Gin Stephens: And I really need starchy carbs. Yesterday, I opened my window with this veggie bowl, this harvest bowl, it was called from this company, I was trying their food, it was delicious. But I was so unsatisfied. It was a giant bowl of food. It was like Brussel sprouts and I don't even know and all of these great veggies, and then I was still starving. And then, I had a bowl of oatmeal and then I felt better. I've got to have starchy carbs.

Melanie Avalon: I do find starchy carbs really satiating, I just don't like the way they feel in my body. I don't feel well.

Gin Stephens: I feel fabulous after I eat starchy carbs. If I don't eat starchy carbs, I don't feel well, that is 100% true. That veggie bowl, it was a whole giant bowl of food, I ate the whole thing. And then, I was like, “I am still hungry.” So, I've got to have beans or something with grains, I have to. A potato.

Melanie Avalon: If I don't eat lots of protein, I don't feel full. But what I'm wondering-- so Dr. Doug Graham is pretty controversial, but reason I'm so excited about bringing him on is because I feel my show has been very--

Gin Stephens: Like keto, meat focused?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I mean, it's featured a lot of people in that world and I haven't had much on the flip side. I've had a few. But he's pretty much as far as you can go.

Gin Stephens: That's pretty extreme. 80/10/10 is very, very-- yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm so excited to bring him on!

Gin Stephens: I would never stop eating if I was trying to do that because I don't get the stop eating signal.

Melanie Avalon: There was a period of time where I was eating basically, really, really high fruit, which I'm still trying to get back to, but really, really high fruit, really high protein. I could have days on occasion where I did just fruit. I would do that occasionally for my one-meal day. When I would do that, the next day, my body would feel so like-- I don't know how to describe it, light and airy, and my eyes would be-- all inflammation will be gone. My eyes would be shining white. I just felt radiating. But I would be craving protein like none other that night. But I'm really on the fence. All the other research I've run the other side really, really seems to be in support of moderate or higher protein diets.

Gin Stephens: Well, the research on my body is, I need carbs, I need fat, and adequate protein. But my body tells me. Sometimes I'm like, “I don't want any meat. I don't want any meat. I'm just not going to have any today.” And then, other days, I'm like, “I really need to eat some meat today.”

Melanie Avalon: I crave meat so much. I'm actually pretty excited-- I haven't told you this yet, Gin, because I still have a lot of lingering things I'm trying to tackle health-wise and I got introduced to a doctor who is apparently the doctor to a lot of people in my sphere. All I've had so far is a brief consult intake with him, but I'm pretty excited because he's making me reevaluate a lot of stuff. He already said iron for example is never an iron issue, it's a copper issue. I was like, “What?” And he doesn't have any one dogma about any one thing. So, I'm pretty excited. We'll see how it goes. If it goes well, I'm going to bring him on the show as well. We had an intake. He doesn't like the whole biohacking concept or all of these different authors and books and ideas. So, I'm going to bring them on for an anti-biohacking episode to dismantle biohacking. I'm really excited.

Gin Stephens: To me, maybe I don't understand biohacking, okay, so tell me if I'm wrong. To me, biohacking is tweaking anything about what you do with your life or your body to maximize how you feel and your health, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And this is what it comes down to because I actually had this conversation with two different people and it was the exact same conversation and I had my idea and they had their idea of what it was, and they were very much anti-biohacking because of the definitions, and it's so interesting how semantics are involved in.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. Semantics are huge.

Melanie Avalon: I think that was the conclusion. I literally got in an argument-- I don't really get in arguments, but I got into sort of argument about it and at the end, we were just like, “Semantics.” We can't really go beyond this because my definition of biohacking is-- in our modern world using tools, devices, supplements, things that we-- because some people say fasting is biohacking or--

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Putting on your blue blockers.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think fasting is biohacking because that's just something we do.

Gin Stephens: No, I think it is. I consider it a biohack.

Melanie Avalon: I consider the biohacks things that are using-- like I just said, devices, supplements, things we would not naturally be-- living our normal life, we would not be able to do unless we consciously secured them and implemented them into our routine. And then by using them, they hack our environment, they hack our bodies to either potentially function better or perform better. So, I consider biohacks, things like blue light blocking glasses, because the non-biohacking form of that would be you just turn off the lights and go to bed. Or like Joovv red light, the non-biohack version would be go outside and see the red light, but even then, you can't get in the concentrated form.

Gin Stephens: Okay, intermittent fasting is a biohack, by your definition, let me explain because in the past, they weren't able to eat around the clock because food was not available around the clock. But now, food is available around the clock. So, we have to biohack by having time-restricted eating windows.

Melanie Avalon: But anybody can fast, and our bodies can fast, but you don't have to go buy something to fast.

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't think the biohack means you have to buy something.

Melanie Avalon: It's a thing that you go get and implement into your life that would make your body potentially better because I wouldn't consider following a low-carb diet biohacking. But I think if you consider fasting biohacking, you could consider that biohacking. But the bristling comes in, I guess, with the two conversations I've had with people who get very upset by it, they think it is pretentious because it's assuming that-- it was a few things, it's assuming that we know better than our bodies and we think that we can bring these devices or bring these things in and make our bodies do better than they would just naturally be able to do from life, which I was saying, “Well, you could extend that same argument to medicine and say medicine is us trying to do that.” That was the main idea, was that it was pretentious or thinking that we know better than our bodies.

Gin Stephens: Here's a definition I just found. I think this is a pretty good one. The attempt to manipulate your brain and body in order to optimize performance outside the realm of traditional medicine. See, that's why I think that intermittent fasting--

Melanie Avalon: Which, fasting is in traditional medicine, like--

Gin Stephens: Okay, I don't think that they're talking about ancient Chinese medicine or something. I think they're talking about go to the doc-in-the-box kind of medicine traditional. Go to your practitioner who's just practicing medicine like they have for the past 20 years. That definition of traditional medicine is not asking Aristotle or something. Anyway, I definitely think fasting is biohacking. I think that carnivore is a biohack and I think that 80/10/10 sounds like a biohack. All that does.

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting, though. I mean, a lot of people agree with you, because I'll do that poll a lot. I should do it now in my group, which everybody should join, IF Biohackers, speaking of, that's what it's called, IF Biohackers. I will often ask, “What's your favorite biohack?” And a lot of people say fasting. I wouldn't consider cold-- Okay, like cold exposure, I wouldn't consider going out--

Gin Stephens: That's a biohack. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Here's how I think about it. I wouldn't really consider like knowing, "Oh, if I go outside in the winter, it's going to be good for my body, it's going to activate sirtuins. It's going to have longevity-boosting benefits," can do all these things. I think just going out in the cold and experiencing that, I wouldn't consider that biohacking, but I would consider it biohacking if I buy a chest freezer, fill it with ice, and do an ice bath. Then, I would consider biohacking because I'm doing this, I'm creating this thing that is upgrading my--

Gin Stephens: But you could do that, absolutely, just like outside in the-- you don't need to buy something to do it.

Melanie Avalon: It's like a kid walking outside and--

Gin Stephens: I think the key for biohacking is that it's purposeful for a goal of your body. Like a kid who's outside playing in the snow doesn't know that there are benefits associated with that, but if you're like, “I'm going to go outside and get a lot of cold therapy because I'm hacking my body,” that is what by definition makes it biohacking. The purposeful pursuit of it, for the purpose of changing your body.

Melanie Avalon: But people do that following a diet, and I don't consider diets biohacking. Like paleo, I don't consider--

Gin Stephens: If you were doing a diet that you-- joined Weight Watchers or something, I wouldn't call that a biohack. But if you read about the science of calorie restriction, and the scientists who-- they eat like two almonds and one cashew, that calorie restriction is the biohack.

Melanie Avalon: Why? Why is one and not the other?

Gin Stephens: I really think the intent is the goal of it. I'm talking about Calorie Restriction, capital C, capital R, you know what I'm talking about, Melanie, we've talked about this before, that the science of calorie restriction for longevity because it's purposeful. You're like, “I am going to hack my body to live to be 120 by having this calorie restriction.” Versus somebody who's like, “I'm joining Weight Watchers because I want to lose weight.” That's totally different than the idea of doing calorie restriction for the longevity purpose and it's very intense. It's like more intense.

Melanie Avalon: So, here's a question. I have my Apollo Neuro device which I would hands down consider biohacking. It's one of my favorite devices on the planet. Listeners, if you want it, feel like I mentioned so many things this episode, but it's at melanieavalon.com/apollo, that's the interview. Melanieavalon.com/apolloneuro is to buy it and you get $50 off of that link. But it uses soundwave therapy. So, you put it on, and it activates a state in your body that is activated by human touch to have like a relaxing effect on the body. I definitely consider that biohacking. What if you go get a massage and you get it with the intent of stimulating human touch, so now is getting that massage biohacking?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, in that case, it would be.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. See, I would not consider that biohacking,

Gin Stephens: If you are attempting to manipulate your brain and body in order to optimize your performance-- If you're like, “Oh, I'm going to get a massage. I like that.” But if you're like, "I am going to get this special massage. I'm going to do this because of this, this, this,” I think it can be a biohack. I'm drinking a mug of hot water because I like it. But if I read something that said, “Having a mug of hot water does this, this, this for your body,” suddenly I'm using it as a biohack versus I'm just drinking hot water. I think it's the intent. I don't know, maybe people think I'm crazy. But drinking hot water just because I'm cold, it makes me happy is different than if Wim Hof said, “If you have a mug of hot water, it does this for your body,” and now, I'm purposefully adding that to my day for this biohack purpose.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm open to that.

Gin Stephens: Okay. [laughs] That's what I've always thought of. So, that's why intermittent fasting works for me. Grandma who just naturally ate that way, I don't think she was biohacking. She just naturally ate that way. Whereas those of us who are like, “I am doing intermittent fasting for health and longevity,” I think it becomes a biohack.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think one of the problems is just-- it goes back to semantics. There's not really one accepted definition.

Gin Stephens: Well, some people don't think that time-restricted eating is fasting. A lot of it is semantics. We can get too caught up in that. But anyway, so your doctor doesn't like the word biohacking.

Melanie Avalon: Oh yeah, no. But it was crazy because I did the intake call, which was like 30 minutes, and we literally talked an hour and a half. And at the end, I was like, “We should have recorded this. This could have been an episode.” I'm really excited though. Actually, I can say his name because he's been on shows, Dr. Anthony Beck. I was listening to him on Ben Greenfield recently.

Gin Stephens: Well, keep us posted.

Melanie Avalon: I shall.

Gin Stephens: All right. Flowing into Carolanne's question, "Determining adequate intake and IF/HGH," which would be human growth hormone. “After listening to Melanie's podcast with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon and your podcast.”

Melanie Avalon: I have not had a podcast with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. So, I don't know who she's referring to. I just want to interject that but go ahead.

Gin Stephens: “And your podcast of September 7th, an issue I've been pondering for quite a long time has come to a head. It's not simple to present. But I'll start with the question. How much protein does one need if one is intermittent fasting?”

Melanie Avalon: I bet it was Cynthia Thurlow.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Did she talk about protein?

Melanie Avalon: She did. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that's got to be it. “Assuming a fasting window of at least 16 hours, how much daily/weekly protein should we be eating? Another question goes along with this before I even get to the issue of the impact of intermittent fasting on adequate protein intake, and that is, how do we determine how much protein to get? If it is grams per pound of bodyweight, is it the whole body or lean body weight? Then, what does lean body weight mean? Is it muscle tissue alone? Or does it mean muscle and bone tissue? Muscle, bone, organ tissue or everything but fat tissue?” Wait, Carolanne, your question is making me crazy. I love you, but-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: This is a question that Melanie would ask.

Gin Stephens: Melanie loves this question. And I'm like, “Eat your food.”

Melanie Avalon: This is literally like me.

Gin Stephens: Eat your food, stop eating your food. Boom. Okay, sorry. All right, Carolanne. I love you anyway. All right. Then, to make it even harder, “How do we know what those weights are? And of course, outside of professional health methods of measuring our body weight, that seems to leave only a scale that is able to measure all of that. Which brings up another question, how accurate are those scales?

Now, to the issue of the impact of intermittent fasting on how much protein to consume, I often hear the great advice to eat to satiety each day, assuming a refeeding that does not limit calories in order to lose weight. And that statement seems to be an implicit belief that doing that will provide quite adequately for the body's needs. And that mainly seems to be as far as I understand it, due to the stimulation of growth hormone due mainly to autophagy.” And I also think I'm just going to interject here real quick, Carolanne, I wouldn't say it's the stimulation of human growth hormone due to autophagy but the recycling of protein due to autophagy. Is that what you think she's asking you, Melanie? The protein for your body's needs, that's because it's recycling it due to autophagy. She's saying stimulation of human growth hormone, that's the rebuilding phase. Autophagy is the breaking down phase.

Melanie Avalon: When you're fasting, human growth hormone is going up.

Gin Stephens: Right. But my point is that's not because of autophagy making human growth hormone go up. I think she's talking about the recycling of protein due to autophagy. Anyway, I'm going to keep going. That's where we have our protein needs met during the fast because our bodies are literally recycling it. The human growth hormone comes into play when you're rebuilding.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so the human growth hormone is stimulated, it's going up while you're fasting. So then, when you start eating, it's really high and then you're at a prime state for growth.

Gin Stephens: And your body has recycled all those proteins during the fast and now your body can use those too. So, it's not just the protein you're eating, is what I'm trying to get across here. Yeah. You don't get all your protein just from protein that you take in through eating. She continues, “It is an uncomfortable place to be in. For me, it's really important that I make sure I get adequate nourishment so that my adrenals and thyroid can heal. When I began intermittent fasting in July of 2018, I already knew my adrenals weren't producing enough energy for me and doing fasting more than 14 to 15 hours was not the thing to do. I didn't know then that it was too stressful for my body. After listening to Dr. Lyon--”

Melanie Avalon: It was definitely Cynthia Thurlow.

Gin Stephens: She's actually not a doctor. She's a nurse practitioner. “I really got to wondering and having a lot of anxiety over how much protein should I be getting.” I'm going to stop right there again, and I have to interject this because 100 years ago, nobody had anxiety about this. They just ate their food. It's so interesting how we're like-- the more we know, the more we're learning, the more anxious we become. If you went back in time and said to somebody, they would look at you like you're crazy, that we're worried about-- Anyway, I'm just going on. We have knowledge overload. All right.

"So, I live a quiet lifestyle, low demand, because that's what I need to do right now, to lessen the stress in my life. I know these aren't simple questions, but I greatly respect the thoroughness of your research and your approach to difficult issues. And just to add here, because it's already way too long, and what will one more sentence be? Thank you immensely for keeping your podcast free of politics. It's like an oasis of peace and calm and encouragement. And I treasure it and you guys. With highest and warmest regards, Carol." Yep. Carol, you will never hear us talk about politics. Never.

Melanie Avalon: Nope.

Gin Stephens: Nope. We've never even talked about politics. Melanie and I have never talked about politics. We could be the complete opposite. We'll never know, and we're not going to tell you.

Melanie Avalon: We wouldn't even know. That’s so funny.

Gin Stephens: Not going to tell you because that's personal. All right, and it's irrelevant.

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And now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you, Carolanne, for your question. Love it. Really appreciate it. And it flows perfectly with everything that we were talking about before so-- Oh, and yeah, it was definitely Cynthia Thurlow. And the reason-- I totally forgot. It's always interesting to see what resonates when I release an episode, like what part of the episode people really resonate with because for every episode, if you do join my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, there's an episode giveaway each time and to enter, all you do is comment on the post about the episode, something that you learned or what resonated with you. And when I released that episode with Cynthia, which was a few weeks ago, or maybe last week, everybody was like protein. I totally forgot that we talked about that because it was just a tiny bit of the whole conversation. But that's what really stuck out to people was because she was saying for women-- One of the reasons she advocates longer eating windows as she thinks for most women, it's almost near impossible to get enough protein.

My answer was, I'm definitely the exception, because it's shocking how much protein I eat in a one-meal-a-day situation. But, yeah, she was saying that for women, specifically, how important it was to get enough protein. As far as how much protein is enough, this is ironic-- I don't know. I was talking before about, one side of the camp of things people like Dr. Graham, fruitarians, the load protein camps, saying that all we need is like 10% of protein.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, there's actually a book called Proteinaholic that talks about that we're eating too much protein.

Melanie Avalon: I've also had James Clement on the show, and we talked about protein as well. I'm really, really fascinated by it because it is such a polarizing thing. On the one hand, we have people saying, “Oh, we're fine with 10%, that's actually ideal.” Then, on the other hand, we have people saying the complete opposite. Probably the episode I went deepest into protein would be the one I did with William Shewfelt and Ted Naiman. I think that's literally at melanieavalon.com/protein. So, people like Han[?], people like Robb Wolf, my recent episode with him, we talked about protein. They point out how direly important protein is, like a moderate, if not high protein intake for health, for our bodies, for satiety, for longevity.

Gin Stephens: Can I pop in a theory that I have?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: You know how we talk all the time about how we're all different when it comes to what foods work for us? I wonder if some of us are better at recycling protein, so we need to take in less. And so, we naturally gravitate towards eating less, and then we assume everyone should eat less, because that's how we feel great. Whereas the people like maybe, the people who feel best when they eat 90% protein, maybe their bodies aren't good at recycling protein, and they need to take in more.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I was going to ponder. So that and then I also wonder, though, how much of it is you and your genetics, your epigenetics. What are you thinking about is, reading this 80/10/10 book, and dancing around the communities and seeing what people say it's like, lot of people say that your body adapts. So, it starts working just fine on the lower protein intake. So, I don't know how much of it is genetic versus epigenetic from the diet that you're following for a certain period of time. All that said, I think there could be a case to be made for lower protein for longevity, especially while you're young. I'm not so much sure after you hit a certain age-- I think it's around 60 or so, I don't know the exact number, there's a point where low protein-- the relationship changes.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I've read that to you. I think Dr. Fung talks about that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and it's pretty well established. Once you reach a certain age, you need more protein.

Gin Stephens: I really believe our bodies are going to tell us. I know how I feel like if I'm one day, I'm craving more protein and I look back and I think, “Yeah, I didn't really have much protein in the past few days.” And then, I'm like, “Now, I'm going to have this big piece of chicken.”

Melanie Avalon: The thing I wonder is, I've been so high protein for so long, I'm like, “What if my body is just-- that's what it's accustomed to?” But to answer her specific questions. The grams?

Gin Stephens: Oh, don't ask me. I don't know any of those recommendations because I would never be able to follow them.

Melanie Avalon: So, the official dietary recommendations are 0.36 grams per pound.

Gin Stephens: And who's that recommendation coming from?

Melanie Avalon: The dietary reference intake. Yeah, 0.8 grams per kilogram. What I see most in the communities that I-- is communitize in, a word? No-- that I live in.

Gin Stephens: You commune in them. You commune in those communities. I just made that up. I don't know if that's right. But you commune with them.

Melanie Avalon: I like going by what Siim Land talks about just if I have to pick one person, and William Shewfelt and Ted Naiman’s book. I don't have that book with me right now. I'm just looking at Siim Land’s book and he advocates 0.6 to 0.8 grams per pound of lean body mass on rest days, and 0.8 to 1.2 grams on workout days. That is often what I see because that averages to around one gram per pound of lean body mass. So, I'm just going to throw that out there as something to consider. And so, what that would look like would be-- because she asked how do you know what your lean body mass is? You can get it measured. A lot of gyms have machines that will measure your-- they'll show you your composition of everything. And you don't have to worry about tissue, muscle, bone, organ tissue, it's going to show you fat, muscle, and that's what you need to know. There are the scales, I don't know how accurate they are. I read things all over the board about them. Do you have thoughts about the accuracy of those scales?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I've heard a lot of negatives about them because they work with bioimpedance. And a lot of it has to do with your body water and they all claim they're great, but they're really, I think, not all that great. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: What I would advocate just to be safe is you could just go for around, and I know this seems like a lot-- But if even though I talked about the low protein before, I think if you're not purposely trying a low-protein diet for that reason, I would err on the side of more protein. I don't really measure or count or anything, I just do what Gin was saying. I eat to satiety, but you could aim for like a gram per-- I would say even like per normal body weight, in that ballpark. Especially if you're trying to like lose weight, maintain weight, have satiety, things like that, which I don't know that she necessarily was asking about that. But if that is the case, protein has the highest thermogenic effect of any food, although I don't know if alcohol might have more but of food. Meaning, you burn calories, just processing it. It's very satiating like I said, and it does support your muscle.

There's even been studies, and I think we've talked about them before, they have found studies where they didn't change exercise protocols-- I'm not saying that you can just eat like tons of protein and gain muscle, but they have found that, that overeating protein can lead to more muscle growth, even without necessarily doing a workout to create that, which is pretty shocking. She says she has a lot of anxiety over wondering about the protein. I think it all goes back to what Gin said in the beginning, try not to have the anxiety part of it. The fact that you're trying to get enough protein, I think, is a good thing. I think the problem-- a lot of people get overly focused on fat or carbs, they're not even thinking about the protein, so I feel you're one step ahead with all of that.

And it sounds you are pretty intuitive with your eating window. You said that you found originally that fasting for more than 14 to 15 hours wasn't working for you and you did realize it was too stressful for your body. So, it sounds like you're really in tune with your body. I would encourage you to eat protein to satiety. Out of curiosity, maybe you could eat to satiety for a while and then retroactively look at how much you ate and see if it does sort of line up to that one gram per pound. I'm saying normal weight because the recommendation is technically less, but yeah. Gin, do you have other thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Well, I kind of have already said mine during the-- while I was reading it. I just never want to stress about macros, or what I'm eating and even-- I talked about this on the podcast when I was doing the PREDICT 3, and I had to enter exactly what I was eating into the app. I wasn't even trying to eat to targets, I just had to put it in. That was too much for me. I was like, “I don't know, what am I eating? I don't know how to put this in.” I don't want to count, track, manage, measure, worry, do a math problem, I don't want to do that. In fact, I refuse to do that, ever again. I'm just going to eat food that is delicious.

Even when I was experimenting-- Melanie and I've talked about this, I was experimenting with eating less fat, just to see how it felt after reading Mastering Diabetes, and seeing their recommendations matched what that one DNA analysis told me, I was like, “Well, I'm just going to try it and see.” Even then, I couldn't count, I just had to eyeball it. So, I just never want to count anything again. I just want to eat food until I'm satisfied. I genuinely believe that our bodies are not going to let us be deficient in protein without sending us craving for more protein. I think that's one of those things we have that, that signal. Because just listening to my body and knowing how it varies from day to day, I get that signal very, very easily. I'll be like, "Ooh, I'm going to add an egg on top of this. I just feel like I'm craving it." Actually, that sounds really good, I'm thinking about having an egg when I open my window. I love to have some days eggs on toast to open my window. You would not have eggs or toast, would you?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no. I would have the egg whites, and I might have egg yolk. I don't like having like them together. I might use the egg yolk as part of my supplement for a multivitamin-type thing with my food. Or I might have a lot of egg whites.

Gin Stephens: All right, I like a runny egg on top of toast. First, I put butter on the toast. Then, I put it in the toaster oven and toast it. And then, I fry up the little eggs till they're runny on the top. I'm really good at making fried eggs running on the top. Low and slow, that's the key. And then I get it all in there and let the egg run all over the toast, so it's drippy. Now I'm starving. I think I'm going to have that. What time is it? [laughs] But like I said, my body lets me know. So, I beg of you not to get all stressed out about that because that's not how we're meant to live.

Melanie Avalon: On the flipside, I do want to say though because I love everything you just said. And on top of that, that's a reframe I'm starting to do in my life, Gin.

Gin Stephens: What's that?

Melanie Avalon: Say somebody says something and you acknowledge to their point, and you're like that’s valid.

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: Not making the conjunction that follows, but. Because if you say but, then it's like saying, “Oh, that's valid, but.” So, you have to say and. Everything that you said, and.

Gin Stephens: But. [laughs] Now, I'm going to know that's what you mean though.

Melanie Avalon: No, no! [laughs]

Gin Stephens: It's okay to disagree. That's okay.

Melanie Avalon: No. That's the thing, though. That’s the reason I said this, just now is I agree. I do agree with what you said.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: And on top of that, I think there's some people, they do like tracking and measuring and I just want to say that if they do like it, I think that's okay, too.

Gin Stephens: Oh, definitely. If you'd love it and want to, yes. Oh, yeah. I'm not saying that you can't if you'd love it. But Carolanne sounds a little stressed out about it, almost it's making it worse. I'm going to weigh myself, but what weight do I use? And what scale should I be on? And how do I calculate my muscle mass? And I really think that it doesn't sound like something that's enjoyable. It sounds like something that's stressing you out.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly.

Gin Stephens: So, yeah, you're right though. If someone loves to do that, and they're biohacking through math of-- you would say that's not biohacking, but if that's what you want to do, and it feels good and you love doing it, then do that. But I don't. I'm never going to do it again. Never again. I whispered that into the microphone.

Melanie Avalon: Both are okay.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they are.

Melanie Avalon: In our nonpolitic world of ands.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: All-inclusive.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Any definitions of biohacking, welcome.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Do it or not. What's a biohack for me might not be one for you. I'm not getting in a chest freezer. But I might go outside without my coat to check the mail and think, “Look, I'm biohacking! I'm biohacking!” I got cold on purpose, right?

Melanie Avalon: I feel like a cold shower might be on the fence for biohacking.

Gin Stephens: Oh no, that's a biohack, I'm sorry. But I don't agree with that.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, I would consider it a biohack because it's like using technology to--

Gin Stephens: Exactly. See, that's a biohack. Speaking of which my upstairs bathroom, we can end on this note-- we have plumbing in the upstairs bathroom.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, congratulations.

Gin Stephens: The only thing we don't have now is like you could actually go up there and take a shower, brush your teeth, and use the bathroom. But what you can't do is have lighting, unfortunately. We're waiting on the electrician. In the meantime, we thought it would be a great idea to also have them redo all the faucets and fixtures in our master bath. So, they came on Thursday and I'm like, “This is great. They're going to be done.” Because they tore our bathroom over-- this is our master bath, they tore it apart a couple months ago because it was dripping. And then they had to cut out the part of the wall. I mean, it's dramatic. So, I haven't been able to use my master bathroom shower since, I don't know, July. Here it is September. I've been walking across the house to the other bathroom. So, they came on Thursday, and I was so excited. But, oh my Lord, the amount of plumbing they've needed to do to just to switch out the faucets on our tub and our shower and our two sinks. It's very elaborate. Plumbing is not easy. They're still not done. Two guys were here all day on Thursday. One guy was here half the day on Friday, and everything's still torn apart.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like plumbers are people that like-- there are few professions in this world that you're just so grateful for them. I'm just really grateful for plumbers.

Gin Stephens: I'm grateful for all the professions that do things I don't know how to do. Plumbers are one of them. But watching them do it is-- it's a lot of work. It's hard. But also, I don't know what's up with the plumbing industry, but if anyone's in the industry, y'all are ridiculous because here's what I'm talking about. Did you know the fixtures are not interchangeable? You just want to change things out, you can't. No, I can't just get a different brand shower handle. They have to cut the whole fitting out of the wall to replace it. Moral of the story is, don't buy fancy plumbing fixtures. Do not get fancy high-end crazy faucets because then when you need to get a new one because something's wrong with it, they're going to have to cut holes in your wall and replace the inside parts. Everything should just be universal. It's 2020. Hello.

Melanie Avalon: Well, on that note.

Gin Stephens: Don't you think it should be universal?

Melanie Avalon: I think they should be switch-outable universally, yes.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. At this point, it should not be that hard, that they should not have to cut the hole out of the wall in order to put in a new shower thing. Anyway, one day, we will have all the working bathrooms and I'm going to use them all and there will be a nice warm shower in all of them. No cold showers.

Melanie Avalon: If I'm ever a guest at your household, I'll take a cold shower.

Gin Stephens: You can take as cold of a shower you want to.

Melanie Avalon: I love my cold showers.

Gin Stephens: That is okay. I don't have a freezer for you, but we could fill my bathtub up with cold water. I got new faucets and they're beautiful. They just aren't attached yet. You can't actually put water in my tub because it's not attached. The faucets are lovely. They just don't work yet.

Melanie Avalon: Do you like baths?

Gin Stephens: I love baths. I'm a bath taker. I heard Oprah one time say-- this was in the 90s when her show was on every day, when she had the afternoon show on NBC or whatever it was. I watched it every day. And one time, someone asked her what her hobby was, and she said bathing and I'm like, “I get it. I get it.” Getting in the tub with a book, staying there for three hours, that's me.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe if it's an ice bath, yeah.

Gin Stephens: No, no. Hot. It's got to be hot.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been wonderful. For listeners, I feel like we talked about so many things. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode184. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the things that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. You can follow me, I'm @MelanieAvalon. Gin is @GinStephens, and I think that is it. Anything else from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think I said a lot of things but I'm waiting for the plumbing industry. Give me a call. We can have a chat.

Melanie Avalon: Let me know if that transpires.

Gin Stephens: Really though, my advice for people really is, keep it simple and pick a brand. The plumbers in Augusta, for whatever reason, they love Delta. Pick a brand and stick to it.

Melanie Avalon: You're like really my advice is for listeners to-- I was like, “Is it going to be a fasting thing? Or is it going to be about the plumbers?”

Gin Stephens: It's plumbing because, right now, I'm living it. Don't buy fancy plumbing fixtures!

Melanie Avalon: And don’t let mold be in your apartment.

Gin Stephens: Either one, they're both bad.

Melanie Avalon: This is true.

Gin Stephens: If you buy fancy plumbing fixtures and they leak, you're going to have mold, and then you can't switch them out because it's too hard.

Melanie Avalon: That's a problem. Now, I'm invested. Now, Melanie is invested. Okay.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. See, that was what was happening. Ours were dripping and you couldn't buy replacement parts because first of all, you couldn't tell what brand they were because they're so fancy. People that had our house before us, they were fancy people, and they bought fancy things. And so, we're like, “We're buying Delta, and they're going to work and if they don't, we'll just get a new one.” And the plumbers are like, thumbs up on that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm invested now.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Talk to you then.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

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Oct 18

Episode 183: Seasonal Candles, Scented Lotions, Food Smells, Anticipation of Eating, Shift Workers, Biphasic Sleep And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 183 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! Go To Butcherbox.com/IFPodcast And Get 2 Free Lobster Tails And 2 Free Filet Mignon In Your First Box!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

The Immunity Code: The New Paradigm for Immune Centric Health and Radical Anti-Aging (Joel Greene)

Listener Feedback: Deb - Terminology

BUTCHERBOX: Go To Butcherbox.com/IFPodcast And Get 2 Free Lobster Tails And 2 Free Filet Mignon In Your First Box!

Listener Q&A: Margaret - Going Overboard? Worried About Scented Candles And Lotions

Listener Q&A: Ashley - Fall Candles

Sense of Smell as the Central Driver of Pavlovian Appetite Behavior in Mammals

The role of insulin sensitivity and intranasally applied insulin on olfactory perception

Food odors trigger an endocrine response that affects food ingestion and metabolism

BLUBLOX: Go To BluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

Listener Q&A: Barbora - The Perfect Pair

Listener Q&A: Emily - Shift Work And Weightloss

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 183 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody. I want to take a minute to talk about enzymes. Enzymes are the workhorses of digestion. They break your food down into usable macro and micronutrients. Many of us may lack digestive enzymes and that leads to digestive issues like bloating, indigestion, and gas. You're not what you eat, you're what you digest. We lose enzymes as we age. So, if you don't have enough enzymes, you might only be absorbing 40% of the foods you're eating. There are two big problems here. Most digestive enzymes are cheap and ineffective, and most do not have enough protease for digesting healthy high protein diets.

That's why I'm so excited to tell you about a new enzyme product called MassZymes. MassZymes is the most complete, most potent digestive enzyme around with over 102% more protease than the nearest competitor, and 300% to 500% more per serving than most popular brands. That's crucial because protein is the most complex macronutrient to break down. Left undigested, protein creates a variety of problems in the gut, from bloating to inflammation and beyond.

The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is excited to announce a special offer just for our listeners. We guarantee it's the best deal available on this product. With volume discounts combined with our custom 10% coupon code, IFPODCAST10, you can save up to 48% off select packages of MassZymes. That's an amazing value. This special deal is only available if you go to www.bioptimizers.com/ifpodcast. You won't find that deal on Amazon or even the company's own website. This deal is exclusively for podcast listeners, and it's legitimately for a limited time while supplies last.

The best part is if you don't feel how MassZymes transforms your digestion, you can get a no-questions-asked, moneyback return on your order. For the fastest shipping, go to bioptimizers.com/ifpodcast, and use coupon code, IFPODCAST10, to save up to 48% on MassZymes. That's B-I-O-P-T-I-M-Z-E-R-S dotcom slash IF podcast.

Melanie Avalon: And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that what you put on your skin gets direct access to your bloodstream? And in your body can do a lot of detrimental things. So, while you may be fasting clean, you may at the same time be infusing your body with endocrine disrupters, which can mess with your hormones, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight and even carcinogens.

In Europe, they've banned thousands of these compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup, and the US has banned less than 10. In fact, most conventional lipstick for example is high in lead, and the half-life of lead in the body can be up to 30 years. That means every time you put on some lipstick, you might be putting some lead into your bones, which might not leave for three decades. This is a big deal. Thankfully, there's an easy all-encompassing answer.

There's a company called Beautycounter, and they were founded on a mission to make skincare and makeup products that are safe for your skin. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to not burden your body and support your skin health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd like to learn more about safe beauty and also get a ton of amazing discounts and free things from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. Not sure which Beautycounter products to try? I also just made a whole series of online quizzes to match you to your perfect product. Those are at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. So, here's the fasting clean inside and out.

All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode #183 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm cold.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, isn't it wonderful?

Gin Stephens: No, I have on shoes, jeans, and long sleeves.

Melanie Avalon: I have on-- I don't even know what it's called. What's it called when the shirt is like-- it doesn't have shoulders, like when it's--?

Gin Stephens: I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Doesn't have straps?

Gin Stephens: Strapless?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. [laughs] I'm in a strapless shirt, and shorts. And nothing else.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Do you keep your heat really up high in your apartment?

Melanie Avalon: No, I keep it at 67.

Gin Stephens: Okay, well, I'm cold.

Melanie Avalon: During the day and 60 at night.

Gin Stephens: Oh my gosh. Yeah, my house has really cold floors. It's built on a slab, is built in '79. Our last house was built on crawlspace and so it was not like this. But this one, it's built on a slab and it just gets cold really fast when the weather changes.

Melanie Avalon: Fabulous!

Gin Stephens: No, not fabulous. All weekend is really when the weather changes, I don't know, Melanie, every year when fall comes, I'm surprised because it's like summer, summer, summer, I'm hot, hot, hot.

Melanie Avalon: It does happen really fast here.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And then like one minute, it's like 90, and then you wake up and you're like, “What's happening?” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It happens after a storm, I feel.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. We did have some rain and then you have all of a sudden-- I went to my niece's birthday party on Saturday, and I was wearing a sleeveless shirt and I was freezing the whole time. And then the next day, I was outside and I was hot the whole time. I can't get it right. It's the time of the year when you just don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, like the weather will change, goes back and forth, and back and forth. It changes its mind and then it just decides to stay. I'm hoping that’s this moment. I feel it is.

Gin Stephens: It definitely feels like fall. My feet are crying.

Melanie Avalon: Feels wonderful.

Gin Stephens: I don't like to have cold feet.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I texted my sister. I was like, “I can live here if it was like this all the time.” I guess I do live here but--

Gin Stephens: You could live here forever. Anything new going on with you?

Melanie Avalon: I think I've talked about this before. I'm reading The Immunity Code by Joel Greene. Did I talk about that? He's the one who says that when we lose fat, it actually damages the fat cells.

Gin Stephens: I think you did mention that. Yeah, that sounds familiar.

Melanie Avalon: This book is blowing my mind. I do not remember the last time I read a book about everything that we talk about, fasting, weight loss, all the stuff that blew my mind to the extent that this book is blowing my mind.

Gin Stephens: Now, does he talk about fasting?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. A lot.

Gin Stephens: Big fan, I would imagine.

Melanie Avalon: Yes and no.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: I need to finish the book. I actually have him booked to come on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, and this is actually the first time I think I'm going to email and say, “Can we plan to record for three hours and make it a two-part episode?” Because that's how mind-blowing and how much information there is.

Gin Stephens: Well, that sounds like a must read then. Why is he yes and no with fasting? Can you give us a little brief?

Melanie Avalon: I need to read more because I'm just now getting to that part. But what he said thus far, I'm like halfway through, it's a really long book, but it's a page-turner. Normally, it's long and I'm enjoying the books, but I have to use willpower and power through. This one, I'm just like, “Ah, it's just so good.” Basically, his premise is that fat loss in general, especially fat loss and regaining fat loss and regain, in the long term, it sets up the body for weight regain, because every time you lose weight and regain it, the fat cells actually become damaged and the extracellular matrix, like the membrane that surrounds the fat cells becomes more rigid and tight. A lot more to that, but something about how fasting too much for too long.

So, he's been doing everything before anybody knew about anything. He was talking about the gut microbiome like 20 years ago. He's had a website for a long time. He was doing one meal a day, I think, for quite a while for a long time. And he thinks that that had massive problems actually in the long term, but I need to finish to figure out why I don't know the nuance exactly of why because he does think the key to sustained weight loss is losing the weight and getting lean and staying lean. That's the key.

So, my question is for people who get lean and stay lean with one meal a day or fasting, is there a problem there? I don't know, because I haven't finished reading it. He thinks the health issues that we mostly have today are because when we gain fat, especially for losing and regaining, but in any case, when we gain fat, all of the immune cells-- so fat isn't just fat, it's also fat, stem cells, and immune cells. And as we age, and as we gain fat, our fat becomes more immune cells, less actual fat, and then our actual immune cells can be either anti-inflammatory, he calls them like the Blue Team, or inflammatory which he calls the Red Team. And he thinks aging is basically our immune cell population shifting to more of the inflammatory Red Team. And that's exacerbated a lot by weight gain and inflammatory fat, like cytokines being released from fat and infiltrating our organs in our body.

Gin Stephens: So, the yo-yo is really bad, he's saying.

Melanie Avalon: Yo-yo is really bad. That's my takeaway.

Gin Stephens: Well, that makes me happy because I used to live in the yo-yo, and I haven't been on the yo-yo since 2014. Yay!

Melanie Avalon: He even talks about how you could be obese and healthy if the nature of the fat is it's not inflammatory fat. If it's healthy young fat in a way, that's healthier than being lean and having your fat cells actually broken and damaged and marked by inflammatory immune cells.

Gin Stephens: And for listeners, we're not saying don't try to lose weight. It's not the takeaway message here. Oh, my gosh, I should just state it, no, no.

Melanie Avalon: Well, because the majority of people are-- I mean, I don't know this as a stat. But in our modern world, it's often likely that if you are overweight, it's probably not the super healthy form of being overweight. It's probably more inflammatory. What his book is about is how to lose weight because that is the healthy thing, but how to lose it and stay there and not have all this cascade effect of weight regain.

Gin Stephens: Right. It does make sense that that would not be good for you.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's blowing my mind. I didn't realize there are all these studies on fat cell matrices and what happens to them. It's just really fascinating. So, to be continued.

Gin Stephens: All right, well, that sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited to see what he says about fasting more. And he has all these hacks-- I just thought about because we're talking about the cold. One of his hacks is how to burn stubborn fat. And it's like you put menthol on the area, I don't know the exact steps, but it's like you put menthol on the area, and then you ice it for 15 to 20 minutes, and then you take some niacin or I don’t know if it was niacin. It was some supplement, and then you go to bed. And it will preferentially burn off that area.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: It's literally very specific things like that. It's mind blowing.

Gin Stephens: Hmm, okay, I'm skeptical of that one.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: I know, that was out of context. But if you read the whole thing--

Gin Stephens: All right, everybody is going to be going out and putting some menthol on their saddlebags trot out, let's say.

Melanie Avalon: It makes sense, though, what we know about cold and everything. The other update is, I interviewed Siim Land yesterday again.

Gin Stephens: How was that?

Melanie Avalon: It was really good. He's into all the things. Talking to him, I just felt like I'm talking to myself.

Gin Stephens: That's funny. I love it though because you know I don't do all the things. I do intermittent fasting. I do a thing here and there. That's it.

Melanie Avalon: And it works. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I eat the food.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. Actually, yeah-- this is so specific. The first thing he and Joel Greene's book-- because he has all these hacks and things you're supposed to do and-- Oh, apparently, it's all about you have to do them in order. That's like really, really important. Otherwise, everything will go wrong. The very first thing is, it's specific, you eat apple skins in the morning.

Gin Stephens: Yes, see, that's already too hard for me.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it gets better. Then, you do that for a certain amount of time, then you eat apple skins plus, I think, HMOs. You have to get like baby formula or something-- I don't know, it's very specific. It's to get more Akkermansia bacteria in your gut lining.

Gin Stephens: That's one of those things that I would not be doing. [laughs] No, thank you. I don't even want to write down what I'm eating and put it in an app, much less eat what you're telling me to eat.

Melanie Avalon: Much less go get some apples and peel it and eat the skins at a certain time.

Gin Stephens: I mean I might like some apple skin, but I learned from my muffin-- the PREDICT 3, that I wanted to put butter and jelly on my muffin, but I couldn't. Peanut butter, that would have been delicious, though. Anyway. Good times.

Melanie Avalon: Good times.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's funny.

Melanie Avalon: Well, anything else?

Gin Stephens: No, that’s it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off, we have some feedback from Debbie. The subject is "Terminology." And Deb says, “Good morning, ladies, I enjoy listening and have been IFing since May 20th. I am down almost 20 pounds and about to drop another jeans size for a total of two. And I thank you for the wealth of helpful information that has helped me on this journey. I'm currently listening to Episode 179, and I specifically want to address when you talked about how to discuss IF with kids who won't really understand it, or actually anyone who questions you about it. And I think I have a possible solution for kids, the doubters, naysayers, etc.

For whatever reason, the simple word 'fasting' has such a negative connotation to it for a lot of people. I wonder if just changing the words around might help. For instance, the next time I get a question about what I am doing or how I have lost weight, I plan to simply say, ‘I started eating intermittently instead of gorging on so much food in one day, and I really feel much better,’ instead of telling them how I do intermittent fasting. Maybe if we put the emphasis on how it has improved our health and the way we feel, which is why I personally began doing it, we can change the way people react to it.

While I don't really feel the need to explain myself to people because it's my life, my body, it's no one's place to criticize, and you can't argue with positive results, but in order to avoid hearing the negative feedback, and getting all worked up over it, I think this is my new way to answer the questions. We'll see how it goes.” Before I read her next thing, Gin, do you have thoughts on that?

Gin Stephens: Well, in Fast. Feast. Repeat., I talked about-- the actual scientific terminology, if you have a daily eating window is time-restricted eating. And that's one way you can explain it without using the word 'fasting.' We use time-restricted eating, or I do actually like the words intermittent eating. That's what we're doing. We intermittently eat, we intermittently fast. But these days, I'm not so worried. Here's a funny story, Melanie, I never told you this. When I was talking to our shared literary agent, we were going to start pitching Fast. Feast. Repeat. So, we're talking, this was in, okay, what year is it? When did this-- When was this conversation? It was over a year before it came out. So, this was in early 2019. We were talking. And she actually said, “Instead of the words 'intermittent fasting,' should we use other words?” And I said, “No, because that's the wording that's already out there.” And she's like, “Okay, got it.” But the wording is out there. So, I've actually heard scientists say we shouldn't call it intermittent fasting. Some scientists really don't like when time-restricted eating, the daily eating window approach, is referred to as intermittent fasting. They think you should only use intermittent fasting to describe an alternate daily fasting protocol or extended fasting even. They don't think that the daily eating window approach qualifies as intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon: And a lot of the figures in the industry, like Peter Attia, definitely thinks that, and a lot of other people as well.

Gin Stephens: But I didn't name it, Melanie didn't name it. This is out there. It's the jargon. We're not going to be able to change what the world calls it, unfortunately. But when you're explaining it to somebody like a kid, I would not tell a kid, “I'm fasting.” I wouldn't say that to a kid. I would just say, “I'm not eating right now.” That's enough. That's all they need to know. I'm gonna eat later. If adults start quizzing me on it, and really, they don't, you just say, “No, thank you.” And they usually move along. Unless they're like, super-- maybe a family member might want to know more, but another adult, you really don't even need to tell them. Just, “No, thank you,” is enough, they don't need to know when I'm eating, what I'm eating, if I eat before, if I'm going to eat later. So, you really don't even need to mention it. Just say, “I'm not eating right now.” But time-restricted eating is great terminology. If you would like to use that instead of saying fasting, actually you've got scientists on your side who think that's probably a better wording than intermittent fasting. But as I said, that cat's out of the bag. Any plan where you're having periods of fasting and periods of eating is now under the general umbrella 'intermittent fasting.'

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 100%, because I think I had a list in What When Wine of how to talk to people about it and it was a lot of those points. It was basically-- you can also keep it short and simple. You don't have to feel the need to go into a lot of detail.

Gin Stephens: You really don't. And you could just say, “Hey, I read this book, What When Wine.” Or, “I read this book, Fast. Feast. Repeat.” Or, “I read Delay, Don't Deny.” And if you're interested in learning more, read that. Those authors explain it better than I could. Just tell somebody that and let them go read it if they really want to know more.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I like the way she said, eating intermittently.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I like that too.

Melanie Avalon: Have you heard of Alan Goldhamer? TrueNorth Health Center?

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. That's extended fasting.

Melanie Avalon: I'll put it on the Himalaya podcast app, Intermittent Fasting podcast stuff we like. I have a playlist there. But I've been listening to an interview with him with Ritual. It's pretty new, it was like a month ago, August 24th. That's really all I was going to say, was that-- But it's all about fasting and he was talking about the difference between when they first started the center because I don't know when that center started, but it was quite a while ago. I guess, just the difference between when they first started it and compared to now and the acceptance around fasting.

Gin Stephens: I do think it's silly, because-- let's say you're going to have bloodwork done and your doctor says, “It's fasted bloodwork.” They don't make you fast for two days. You don't eat after midnight, you wake up in the morning like eight hours later, they call that fasted. I think people get all crazy about it. That is fasting. So, we are extending that fast. Those of us that do the daily eating window approach, we are having a longer fasting period.

Melanie Avalon: We're just breaking the fast, breakfast. It's just a little bit later.

Gin Stephens: Exactly.

Melanie Avalon: So, the rest of Deb's email, she says, “One last note on this episode, you both used the term 'Debbie Downer' a lot, and always apologize to anyone named Debbie,” which is her. “And I always chuckle a little when I hear that. From now on, we can just say, don't be a downer? Of course, I am kidding a little when I say this, but just a suggestion.” She says, “Thank you and keep the awesome info and studies coming. I always learn something new from each episode.”

Gin Stephens: Oh, and she said "Sincerely, Debbie (not a downer)." [laughs] I get it, Debbie, I'm sorry. I have a friend whose name is Karen, and that's a name that gets a lot of jokes. Like, “Don't be a Karen.” Sorry, all the Karens out there. I'm not saying it, I didn't make it up. I'm just saying Karens also fall into this situation. So, I'm sorry that your name is got that connotation. We'll try to do better to not say that. Although my very favorite skit, and I'm sure Debbie doesn't like it, and I probably wouldn't if my name was Debbie, or I would just to find the humor in it, The Debbie Downer from Saturday Night Live.

Melanie Avalon: I thought you're going to say that.

Gin Stephens: Have you seen those?

Melanie Avalon: Actually, no, but I was like, it's going to be a Saturday Night Live skit.

Gin Stephens: And if you want to call don't be a downer, that'd be fine, but they are just really hilarious. Those skits, they're some of my favorite. It's like the family around the Thanksgiving table and they're like, “Everyone say what you're thankful for.” She's like, “I'm thankful I didn't get salmonella this year like my neighbor did.” Womp-Womp! Anyway, that's my favorite Saturday Night Live skit.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I missed out on Saturday Night Live. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I haven't watched it for a while. But there were some eras that were better than others. But all through high school in the 80s, we were watching it. It was the Eddie Murphy years. Those were so good. He was fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know why I feel like I never tapped into that. Maybe because I didn't really watch that much TV after a certain point, like when I would have been watching it.

Gin Stephens: We all watched it. Times were different back then there, too, because we only had-- and we didn't even have cable. I lived in the mountains. We didn't have cable television. There was no cable. There was no satellite. I don't know if it existed. But we had three channels, and if you could tune them in--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Well, four, if you count PBS. We had ABC, NBC, CBS, and if you could get PBS, that was lucky. And we had a rotor and we had to turn it and it had like an antenna on the top of the roof that had to turn based on-- if you were watching NBC and you wanted to switch to ABC, you had to turn the rotor and point it in a different direction. I'm telling you, you had to really want to change the channel. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Wow.

Gin Stephens: So, that's how old I am. It was rural Virginia, we were way out in the country. Everyone watched those things. It wasn't like you had 47 million options that you could watch. No, we all watched Saturday Night Live. We all watched Wonder Woman on whatever night that came on. We all watched the same things because that's all there was, such a different time. Anyway, thank you, Debbie, for that feedback.

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All right, now back to the show.

Gin Stephens: We're ready to move on to our first question.

Melanie Avalon: I think so. We actually have two questions tapping into a similar subject. Ashley, subject is "Fall Candles." She says, “Hi Gin and Melanie. First, I want to thank you for the podcast. I read the books and love them. But hearing from you weekly keeps me motivated. This might have been a question on an earlier episode, so I apologize if it's repetitive, but I wanted to ask about scented candles, specifically fall candles. I mostly do 20:4, started this past June with a down day on Thursdays and an up day on Fridays, just to switch things up. I've had a lot of success with this format. Thursdays are always a little bit challenging, but I don't usually get hungry until around 3:00 in the afternoon, so I am able to pull through. Okay, getting to the question. I am a sucker for fall-scented candles. Fall is the only season when I like candles that smell like food. I just ordered a pumpkin spice candle and another one that smells like pecan waffles.” Do you say pecan or pee-can?

Gin Stephens: Well, I say pee-can because that’s the South Carolina way to say it. Although I'm sure there's people in South Carolina who don't say it that way. But, yeah, pee-can is how we said it.

Melanie Avalon: So, those waffles. “I was having my down day last Thursday and I woke up early in the morning and lit the candle to boost my mood while working from home. Immediately, I was starving. I blew out the candle and a couple of hours later, I felt better. I pushed through it and I didn't get anything to eat. So, what I'm wondering is did the candle actually break my fast as in spiking insulin, or maybe just triggered my appetite? I can push through cravings, but I will definitely stop lighting the candles if it's defeating the purpose of my fast. Thank you so much. And I hope you know how much good you're doing for this community. I was not a very big girl to begin with, but I've always struggled to lose that last 10 to 15 pounds until reading your books. I'm confident for the first time ever. So, thank you for changing my life.”

We also have a question from Maggie. And the subject is "Going Overboard, Worried About Scented Candles and Lotions." And Maggie says, “Hi, I'm working my way through the first episodes of your podcast, love it. During my first week of IF, I tend to be the crazy dieter that follows every rule with no cheating. I'm not viewing this as a diet, but that mentality may be creeping in because I'm concerned that burning a food-scented candle might cause insulin release and break my fast. I'm a huge candle person and collector who always has one burning. I tend to love bakery and foodie scents. I'm nervous to burn them during my fasted period. I also own a lot of sweet-smelling body lotions, which I'm afraid to use. How crazy am I being? Can artificial scents such as these trigger insulin? Should I follow the rule of if you're not sure, just say no. Thanks, Maggie.”

Gin Stephens: Okay, so here's the thing. My rule of thumb is I don't want you to worry about something you can't control, like if you're walking through the mall and you’d smell Cinnabon and you're freaking out like you have to wear clothes put on your nose like, oh my gosh, I'm “breaking the fast.” I don't want you to live in fear. That being said, we can control whether we're burning food-scented candles or putting on body lotions that make our bodies think that food isn't coming. And I really hate to even say this but, yes, we do have scientific studies that show insulin response to the sight and smell of food. I'm looking at one right here, it's a study, “Peripheral insulin in response to the sight and smell of food.” This is an old study, this is from 1980. But they looked at 25 obese women and 23, they call them “reference women,” to find out what happened, and they did have an insulin response to the presentation, the smell of food. It's because when we smell that food smell-- this is the explanation, I'm going to read this quote, “is the parasympathetic nervous system triggers salivation and increases insulin production in response to the expectation that glucose will be entering the bloodstream.” And that was actually from a different article. But that's a direct quote from somebody.

And in the study that I mentioned before about they compared the obese women with the “reference women,” the insulin response was higher in the obese women. Is that fair? No. But it shows to me that if you are someone who is obese or has been overweight for a while, and you're really trying to lose weight, you may have a larger insulin response to that delicious pumpkin spice candle than someone who is not. And so, it sounds nuts to say, maybe don't burn that pumpkin spice candle while you're trying to lose weight, but the science actually is there. And I'm sorry to report that because that does sound-- for someone like me, who likes to keep things simple, I don't want to worry about a lot of things, I don't want to say be careful with your candle because it sounds nuts. But I think that Ashley already knew that that candle bothered her because she was starving and so, the insulin response that could happen. So, anyway, what do you say to that, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, pretty much the same page, and I also looked up a lot of studies, and I learned some really fascinating things I didn't know. Do you know where the highest density of central insulin receptors are located and the highest insulin concentration?

Gin Stephens: I do not.

Melanie Avalon: On the olfactory bulb.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that's where the smells are.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, apparently, the connection between our appetite, insulin, and smells is really, really important. When we think about it, it's almost shocking, something I recently experienced myself how much our sense of smell relates to our taste because as you know, I recently had my deviated septum fixed. I couldn't smell through my nose for a week. I couldn't taste food. One of the Q&As is like, “When will I be able to taste food again?" And one of the other things I learned researching this was that apparently, the way that our nose-- how we smell it. Initially, the first phase is smelling it in the air, so like the candle or smelling a food. But then, the second phase is when we actually eat it and then it releases smells that go up through into our nose, and that's the second phase. But what's really interesting is that when we're fasted, we tend to have a higher sensitivity to smells. And then, when you eat, when you're satiated, our perception of smells goes down. It's not quite as acute. So, if you're smelling a candle in the fasted state, it's probably going to have much more of a stimulating effect and--

Gin Stephens: Can I interrupt you for a second? Am I right to then-- from what you just said, when it's actually in your mouth and you're “smelling it from your mouth through your nose,” that way, it's actually magnified? Is that what you're saying?

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm saying when you actually eat it and break it down, the most potent smell effect is from eating it.

Gin Stephens: From inside your mouth, okay. I'm just trying to distinguish, so an exterior smell is different than the taste/smell. So, it's more pronounced when it goes in the mouth.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. But what's interesting is I was reading one article, and it was analyzing the work of like Pavlov's dogs. And it was talking about how he didn't really analyze smell specifically, because in his work, he would basically tempt dogs with things they wanted and measure their salivation and how their bodies were responding to it. But this was really interesting. If the food was just briefly put in the dog's mouth, it didn't have that big of an effect. But if they were tempted, so they could smell the food for like five minutes, that had a way bigger effect on their gastric acids being released.

Gin Stephens: They were anticipating it. So, that's interesting. I wonder then, this is just me wondering, I don't know if there're studies about this or not. When I'm preparing food for my family, but I know I'm not going to eat it, I have no anticipation that I'm going to eat this food. I have no like-- I don't get all hungry and worked up over it. But maybe if I were planning to eat it, that anticipation would play a role.

Melanie Avalon: I think so.

Gin Stephens: Because I can handle food and not feel starving and not feel like I need to eat it. But then, when you are fixing it, you're getting ready to eat it. It's that different kind of like, “Ooh, I'm going to eat this.” So, the anticipatory period is important.

Melanie Avalon: It's super important. It's important because it preps your body to digest it. Actually, sorry, this is a really quick tangent. Did I talk about that really fascinating study from Paul Saladino’s book about vegetarian people seeing meat?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, this blew my mind, and this kind of speaks to what you were just talking about. So, they've done studies on so-- they can look at like, I forget what it's called electric something potential, like seeing what part of your brain is lighting up to seeing certain stimuli. And when they show meat to omnivores, I don't know if in the study if they were like fasted, I bet they probably were. So, omnivores that see meat, they experience desire consciously and subconsciously, so another part of their brain. I don't who it is, vegans or vegetarians, but if they show them meat, they don't experience conscious desire for it but the subconscious part of their brain, still lights up, which I thought was really fascinating. Paul Saladino was using it as an argument that we're naturally wired to desire meat.

Gin Stephens: Naturally omnivores.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But I just found that really fascinating. The reason I was thinking about it was, I don't know what the implications are if you're constantly telling yourself I'm not eating this now, does that override? I don't know. I'm just theorizing. I'm just pontificating. There's a slight nuance and I almost don't want to throw in this nuance because it will confuse people. Before I say that, this is really similar to what Gin just said, from her study. I actually thought for a second that we were looking at the same study, but this is different.

One of the ones I read said that sensory inputs are well known to influence digestive processes in the anticipatory or cephalic phase, sensory perception of food drives the secretion of gastric juices in preparation for food intake via parasympathetic control through the vagus nerve. So, similar to what you just said. The slight caveat is another study was looking at it and it said that the smell of food induces salivation and release of gastric acid and insulin, conversely sustained odor exposure may induce satiation.

Gin Stephens: So, it stops after a while. If you're like working at a bakery, don't stress out over it.

Melanie Avalon: I thought this is going to freak people out hearing that, but actually to this point--

Gin Stephens: No, I think it's good. Actually, I'm glad you said that because it doesn't just keep going and going and going. Also, I think our bodies just turn off sensory things that just go for a long, long time.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I would believe it.

Gin Stephens: They stopped responding. Well, we know that with sound, you stop hearing it after a while. I mean you really hear it, but you stop noticing it. The same with the smells, that sort of thing. I think it's different, like you said, if it actually is coming in your mouth, like I wouldn't lick it. I wouldn't lick a cookie repeatedly.

Melanie Avalon: It says that acute exposure, so temporary exposure to attractive vinegar odor. I don't know what they were testing. I don't know when vinegar odor is attractive.

Gin Stephens: I love vinegar odor.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Oh, wait, like the salt lick vinegar?

Gin Stephens: I love all vinegar odor. Did you ever color easter eggs with those kits that you had to put it? Love it. I love that smell.

Melanie Avalon: Of course, you do.

Gin Stephens: I bet you don't like salt and vinegar potato chips.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know what those tastes like.

Gin Stephens: Like putting vinegar on your fries?

Melanie Avalon: Well, I never liked vinegar, so I never put them on.

Gin Stephens: Okay, malt vinegar on fries, amazing. Yeah, I like vinegar.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. This is so funny because one of the only things I probably didn't like about like Easter was that awful smell of--

Gin Stephens: I would just sit there and sniff it, like on purpose. [laughs] But are we surprised?

Melanie Avalon: No. That's so funny. So, maybe they were. Acute exposure to attractive vinegar odor, which Gin knows all about, triggers a rapid and transient increase in circulating glucose, a rapid upregulation of genes encoding the glucagon, like hormone adipokinetic hormone, for insulin like peptides and some target genes. And then, it says sustained exposure to food odors, however, decreases food intake. So, yes, if you're working at a bakery or you're working at the scented candle Bath & Body Works, it's okay. You'll be okay.

Gin Stephens: It'll happen. And then if you keep it going, you'll get used to it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it says food odor can induce a transient anticipatory endocrine response. So, unless you're anticipating it for your five-hour shift or eight-hour shift-- I don't know how long shifts are. But, yeah.

Gin Stephens: I don't burn scented candles during my fast, but then again, I don't burn scented candles ever because I don't like really strong smelly things.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't like any smells, please.

Gin Stephens: I did get some, that Mrs. Meyer's Clean Day. I love their-- Okay, there's some smells that I like.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, here's the teller because there's like one natural smell, pretty much I don't really like the smell of the world that much but there is one smell I love.

Gin Stephens: Is it lavender?

Melanie Avalon: I don't like lavender.

Gin Stephens: I like lavender.

Melanie Avalon: It gives me a headache.

Gin Stephens: Is it vanilla?

Melanie Avalon: I like vanilla.

Gin Stephens: I love vanilla.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. Yay! Trees.

Gin Stephens: Oh, you like tree?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, like pine.

Gin Stephens: But you don't like pine-scented stuff?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I don't really like scented anything, but I like pine.

Gin Stephens: Like a real pine tree?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, me too. I like that too.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, we can meet up in a pine forest with vanilla.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I'll go to a pine forest.

Melanie Avalon: A vanilla-scented pine forest would smell wonderful.

Gin Stephens: I think you're right. Sounds like Christmas.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Oh, it does.

Gin Stephens: Which will be here before we know it.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: That really is true. I can't wait to decorate for Christmas.

Melanie Avalon: I love Christmas. So, body products. I'm assuming we would not encourage having food-smelling body products. And, on top of that, if you haven't considered it, I would encourage not putting on these scented body lotions anyway, because I've talked about this a lot before, but we're putting these onto our skin, those compounds are often endocrine disruptors and there are ones called obesogens often found in these skincare products and they can actually affect your fat cells to encourage your body to store and gain weight.

Gin Stephens: Although I love the smell of the Beautycounter lotion.

Melanie Avalon: Which does not smell like food.

Gin Stephens: Well, is it a citrusy kind of thing?

Melanie Avalon: There's a lot of citrus. It's all natural smells, but it's like, yeah, like citrus and stuff like that. A lot of citrus represented.

Gin Stephens: I guess here's what I would say to both Maggie and to Ashley. I would say this. If you're using anything like a lotion or a candle, and you find that it makes you shaky or nauseated, then that is not working for you. But one little stomach growl and then going about your day, you're probably fine, right? If it makes you shaky or nauseous, don't use it. But other than that, go by how you feel, if it makes you starving, starving, starving, don't use it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, pretty much.

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Gin Stephens: All right, let's move on. We have a question from Barbora. And the subject is "The Perfect Pair." Barbora says, “Hi, lovely ladies, I know you hear this a lot, but I really enjoy listening to your podcast. I drive a lot for work, and your conversations are part of my weekly journeys. IF has changed my life in more ways than one. I have Crohn's disease and stumbled across intermittent fasting through my consultant. I didn't do it right the first time until I discovered your podcast and learned all about clean fasting through all of Gin's books. I am now on an amazing route to a good health lifestyle. IF has helped me with my symptoms, and I am deep diving into nutrition and holistic approaches. I fast clean, I'm starting to eat better. I'm listening to my body. Anyway, thank you, Gin for being the voice of reason. And thank you, Melanie, for being you. You talk as fast as you think, and that is me all over. So, I feel like I know you really well. I love both of your other podcasts and always look forward to new releases. I would love to know how you two actually met and came up with the IF podcast idea and how you've kept it going so great.

Last but not least, I have now got my mum, couple of friends, my hairdresser, and colleagues at work all doing IF, and I've become their “unofficial coach,” passing down the knowledge I learned from you both. Yes, they have DDD or FFR books too, Gin. Much love to you both. And thank you, Barbara, from the UK.” And notice how I said mum instead of mom because that's how she spelled it. And it was the UK spelling.

Melanie Avalon: She also spells her name, Barb, is that how they spell Barbara in the UK?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. There's lots of different ways. I was a schoolteacher as you know, for 28 years, there's a million ways to spell every single name that you could possibly have. But, usually, people pronounce it the standard way. But you never know.

Melanie Avalon: She spells it with an O, for listeners who are curious, Barbora. Actually, this is appropriate timing. I just got an email from a company we're going to start working with and they were like, “Can you send a picture of you and Gin together?” And I was like, “Well--"

Gin Stephens: Nope. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I cannot, actually. [laughs] Gin and I have never met in person.

Gin Stephens: We need to get a picture together.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: I know people are probably like-- their minds are exploding right now.

Melanie Avalon: That we've never met in person? Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Because we said it before on the podcast. But I know people assume we have met by now. But we still haven't.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I remember when I asked questions for you in the group somebody asked that, was like, “Have you still met in person?” And everybody was like, “What?” Long story short, which we've told a few times on the show, but why not retell it? I was wanting to start a podcast. I had self-published a book, like Gin, about intermittent fasting, the original What When Wine diet, and I was wanting to start a podcast about intermittent fasting, but I wanted a cohost. So, I just was Facebook googling like intermittent fasting groups. And so, I wandered into the one meal a day group. And I was like, "looking to start a fasting podcast." And at this point, I did have my book deal. So, I had a book coming out. I had What When Wine coming out. I didn't mention the title because I didn't want people to think I was trying to pitch my book. But I did say I have a book coming out in bookstores about fasting, I would like to start a podcast, is anybody interested? And everybody in the group completely freaked out.

Gin Stephens: They did. It was small at that time, I have to say. This was in early 2017. And my book had only been out for like three months at this point. My book was still new. Yeah, everybody freaked out, reported it, reported it. You know how people do.

Melanie Avalon: And I got kicked out of the group. I was like, “Okay.”

Gin Stephens: Just briefly while we could regroup, and that was me, I was the only admin, there was nobody but me. So, I'm the one, because it was reported. And people were like, “You're very rude, coming in here and trying to--” I mean those were like the comments-- that people said, it wasn't rude at all. But the comments were, that's what someone said. I don't even know if you saw those comments, because-- but people reported the post and the comments were like, “I can't believe you're coming in here talking about your book.” So, then I reached out to you by Messenger and said, “Hey, I saw your post, and let's talk about that.” And I can remember-- and then I added you back to the group immediately. I probably was teaching school at the time, like it was in the middle of a school day. And so, I'd be trying to teach, and then I'd get a notification. Anyway, things would happen, and I would be like, “What's happening? I have to go do another job now, kids. Just give me a minute.” But initially, you were like, “Let's do one,” because you liked Paleo Women. And you're like, “Let's do intermittent fasting for women.” And I'm so glad we decided to--

Melanie Avalon: I know we were like talking about a lot of different ways to take in.

Gin Stephens: Women. Your initial idea was you wanted to do a podcast targeted to women.

Melanie Avalon: I don't even remember that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I remember that. And I was like, “Well we have a lot of men in the group. So how about-- I think men would like it too.” I think men would also listen, and I'm so glad that we did not target it just to women because I know we have some fabulous men who listen all the time. And in fact, I was just talking yesterday to-- her name is Lisa Fischer. She's a radio personality from Arkansas, and she's starting a podcast. And she actually first heard about intermittent fasting from her son, her college-aged son who discovered it through our podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, so her college-age son listening to our podcast. So, shoutout to Lisa’s son. Gosh, I wish I could think of his name. Something like Gibson. I can't remember that might not be it, but it's something-- it's a really cool name that I really loved, whatever it was. Sorry, I can't think of it, but he introduced Lisa to intermittent fasting. And then, she introduced thousands of people from Arkansas. I had to think for a minute. I don't know how you say it, Arkansanians? People from Arkansas. Arkan-- I don't know. Arkansanians. I'm sure that's not it.

Melanie Avalon: Georgians, Tennesseans, Floridians, Arkans-- Floridians.

Gin Stephens: Arkansas people. Anyway. Lots of people in the Little Rock, Arkansas area doing intermittent fasting, thanks to Lisa. She's pretty awesome.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but I'm so glad that we didn't just do it to women, target the show to women because intermittent fasting has broad appeal. And I'm thrilled that men enjoy our podcast as well.

Melanie Avalon: Same. And I'm also thrilled because we went back and forth on the name.

Gin Stephens: We did.

Melanie Avalon: And we were like, should we make it like catchy and clever and like subtitles, and finally, we just called it The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Best decision ever.

Gin Stephens: It was the best decision ever. Keep it simple.

Melanie Avalon: I remember we did a call to talk it out.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, to meet. And I was like, “I like her.”

Melanie Avalon: Me, I was like, “I like her.”

Gin Stephens: Yay.

Melanie Avalon: I remember also, because, originally, I was thinking like, somebody my age and make it the paleo women podcast, I guess which at the time was-- Yeah, now it's called Well-Fed Women, which is so surreal how far we've come because now I'm really, really good friends with Noelle, like really good friends with her. She's the host of that show. But I think it's worked so well that because between me and you, we can cover all perspectives.

Gin Stephens: Right, because I'm a whole lot older than you. I don't know if people realize that, but I'm over 20 years older than you.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. I like how we have different-- like, we're on the same page about the fundamentals. But then, I get to cover the people who are like slightly more paleo or obsessed with biohacking or that. And then, you're more of the people who fasting is their main thing, not as much, but we're still on the same page about the overall fundamental importance of so many things, like genetics and the gut microbiome and mindset and all this stuff.

Gin Stephens: It was 2017. So, it's been--

Melanie Avalon: Almost three years.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, over. It's been over three years. Yeah, over three years, April. I think May 1st of 2017 is when we were setting the first podcast to come out. That was our goal date, right around May.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Here we are, Episode 183.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, over three years later. I love it.

Melanie Avalon: It's crazy.

Gin Stephens: It really is.

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting that we still have so much to talk about every time.

Gin Stephens: We do still have a lot to talk about.

Melanie Avalon: As long as we can talk a little bit about other things thrown in there as well. Personal life. I don't know, it's like a catalog of life events. It's funny, I was thinking about this the other day. I was thinking how, like, throughout everything in the past three years, I can probably-- regardless of what was happening, the one thing that was consistent was doing this show. So, I can remember like, well, recording the podcast at that time because nothing else have I done like that consistently.

Gin Stephens: Every week, we've put one out. Every single week.

Melanie Avalon: Few times where things got a little intense, trying to get it out.

Gin Stephens: But it happened.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. Super grateful.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, me too. I'm glad you wandered into our group. That was a good wandering.

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you kicked me out and then accepted me.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: I really didn't know what was happening because I was like, “What's going on?” Why is everybody so upset?" But people were being very protective.

Melanie Avalon: I think it's so funny, it's why I say it. It's really funny.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it is a funny story. I'm grateful to have this podcast. I've told this story too before, but I had just the week before been on a podcast that I was a guest. It was the first time I'd ever been a guest on a podcast, the week before. And it wasn't a health-related podcast. I think it was a political podcast, but the guy was in the group, and he's like, “Let's talk about fasting.” I'm like, “Fine.” We didn't talk about politics. But he was in the group. I'm not even sure what his politics were. But it wasn't a health podcast. But he interviewed me-- he and his cohost interviewed me, I can't even remember the name of it, but for like an hour. And I was able to talk about fasting for an hour, and I thought, “I wonder if I could do a podcast.” And then, one week later, you show up and say, “Anybody want to do a podcast?” I'm like, if that's not the universe, then I don't know what it is because I would still be thinking about it. I wouldn't be doing it.

Melanie Avalon: And now, here we both are with two shows each or another-- Well, two shows between us. We each have another show.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. A total of three.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Mine, yours, and ours. Isn't that what they say with kids when people get remarried? Ours, yours and--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, is that what they say?

Gin Stephens: Mine, yours, and ours. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, we have one more question from Emily, the subject is "Shift Work and Weight Loss." And Emily says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. I have a question regarding shift work and weight loss. I'm a 34-year-old, stay-at-home mom of four kids and I have a paper route as my side hustle. I typically sleep from 10 PM to 2 AM, work from 2:00 to 4:00 AM, six days a week and then sleep from 4 to 7 AM.” Wow, I'm just in awe of this. Okay.

She says, “I'm new to IF as I'm consuming books and podcasts during my fasting time, instead of food. I keep hearing you guys talk about shift work being one of those times where weight loss is difficult. I aim for a 20:4 hour fasting window and eat usually from 2 to 6 PM. I threw out my scale. So, I don't know if I've lost any weight, but I do feel better. Is the slimming down portion of this life plan likely going to be slow going for me, since my sleep is broken up into shifts? I don't eat during my work hours, obviously. But I now know there's a lot more to consider than just calories consumed when it comes to health and weight loss. I feel in control of my food consumption for the first time in my life, even if I don't lose a single pound, although I need to lose about 50 pounds, I will continue this simply because I'm no longer a slave to the cravings. Thank you, Emily.” Wow. So, she sleeps from 10 to 2, gets up, does her paper route from 2 to 4, and then comes back and sleeps until 7:00.

Gin Stephens: So, it sounds like she's getting seven hours of sleep a night, but it's interrupted with a two-hour period of work. I don't know, this is an unusual situation because that's more than just shift work because shift work is when someone is typically-- typical shift work is when people are sleeping during the day and awake when most people are sleeping. This is like she's still sleeping at a typical time, it's just broken up in the middle. If you're getting up to tend to a baby, that's waking up in the middle of the night. Boy, I remember those days, I never felt rested.

Melanie Avalon: And she's doing a paper route. So, she's like delivering.

Gin Stephens: Getting up, delivering the paper and then going back to sleep. This is just something, I don't know of any research into what happens when you have that little awake period in the middle of the night. Although, Melanie, have you ever read articles that talk about how people used to have-- Do they call it a biphasic sleep pattern? Have we talked about that before?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they would get up in the middle of the night and do something.

Gin Stephens: And then go back to bed.

Melanie Avalon: And I want to report back on this question because I want to do more research on this question.

Gin Stephens: I think this is very different than typical shift work where you're awake during the night, the whole night, and sleeping only during the day. That's opposite of our body's natural rhythm. But a lot of us naturally do tend to wake in the middle of the night right around that time. And as we've mentioned, it used to be common knowledge or common practice to wake up in the middle of the night and then go back to bed, like they would get up and do some things and then go back to bed. They also would probably go to bed earlier with the sun, when it got dark, they'd go to bed earlier, then they'd wake up in the middle of the night, be awake for a while, then go back to bed for a few more hours. So, I'm not sure that's a bad thing really. If it were me, I would probably try to go to sleep earlier than 10 PM, just to get a little bit more on the front end. If you feel like you need a little more sleep, maybe try to go to bed at 9 PM instead and see if you can.

Melanie Avalon: You might also benefit from a nap during the day if you can, do it.

Gin Stephens: But just that one more hour of asleep on the front end might really help, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to ask Dr. Kirk Parsley about this because he's a sleep expert and I really wish I had--

Gin Stephens: That's a great question. Maybe we could revisit it.

Melanie Avalon: Let's do a part two.

Gin Stephens: Get that info and then we can come back to it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because that is really interesting because when I read this through, but I think reading it now is when I realized exactly what she's doing which is--

Gin Stephens: Right. It's not exact shift work. Same thing with me, when the first time I read it, I was just like, “Oh, shift work.” But this is different.

Melanie Avalon: It does make me think because when I was interviewing Siim yesterday, he did a trial of polyphasic sleep for like 100 days. And he said, when he did it, he slept like four hours at night and then would take like two 20-minute naps during the day, which is obviously very different from this. And I don't even know if that's typical of the way you're supposed to do polyphasic sleep, but I just thought about it because he mitigated, I guess-- or he had that intense block and then he did the naps-- but there's a lot of studies on naps, and just how effective-- Oh, that is something I learned. Did you know that in theory-- because I'm always like terrified that taking a nap during the day will make me not being able to sleep at night? But in theory, if you have a full sleep cycle during the day, it shouldn't really affect your night. It's just like adding another sleep cycle.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I've never seen any science on napping. I don't typically nap. Unless it's like I'm out of whack because I've been on vacation and I'm sluggish, trying to get back to my fasting regimen. Other than that, I don't feel like I need a nap.

Melanie Avalon: I don't either. But apparently, they're really beneficial, and they're really beneficial for memory learning. So, there's different categories of it. And these numbers are not correct, but this was the general gist of it. If you're sleep-deprived and you learn something, that evening you might have like a-- on a scale of one to five, I'm completely making up these numbers, but this is the idea. On a scale of one to five of retention, you might have a two or three, and then the next day when you wake up, you'll be like a four. But if you were to take a nap, then you would already be like a four that night and the next day you'd be like a five. So, napping is really important, especially if you're sleep deprived, for memory formation. And for Emily, I think it could be helpful if she can fit it in.

Gin Stephens: It all depends on how old her kids are, and what they're doing, whether you can nap. Because I can remember when my boys were little, it was when Will was a newborn and Cal-- So, Cal was 18 months when Will was born. And so, I was in that period where I wasn't sleeping at night because I was getting up to feed Will-- Oh, Will turns 21 this week, by the way. So, this was 21 years ago. And so, I can remember, newborn Will was taking a nap and Cal was 18 months old, and I remember I was trying so hard to take a nap. I was lying on the couch and Cal was watching some-- probably Blue's Clues and I was trying so hard to take a nap. And he kept coming over and with his little chubby baby fingers was like prying my eyes open with his fingers. Like, “Mama, Mama.” I'm like, “Please, Cal, just let mama sleep, please.” So, there was no napping going down. And also, my children were not good nappers.

Melanie Avalon: I was never a napper.

Gin Stephens: Uh-huh, no, we're not good nappers. When Will was in kindergarten, first of all, he was old, because he's got a September birthday. So, he was already six and in kindergarten, because he was five when kindergarten started but turned six right away, and they had to have naptime. And his teachers, like, “Will will not lay on his mat at nap time.” I'm like, “He is not going to. So, you can either fight him on it, or you can give him something to do.” She's like, “Well, the rule is they have to just lay there.” I'm like, “Well, I'm sorry, he is not going to do that no matter what I do to him.” I mean, I could punish him every day. He ain’t going to lay on his nap mat and just lay there. I'm just telling you.

Melanie Avalon: I remember nap time. I forgot about that.

Gin Stephens: But every day, he got in trouble. At recess, he lost his recess every day because he wouldn't lay on his nap mat and like-- I wanted to just-- I'm like, I'm not the kindergarten teacher, but this is really not-- you're punishing him for his inability to lay still, and he was not able to do it. Anyway, it was a frustrating time as a mother.

Melanie Avalon: I remember one of the nap times, the teacher came and got me, and I thought I was in trouble. But then really, she was like-- I guess because I was a good student, she went and took me with some other student on some magical adventure during nap time, I don't remember what it was. It was something with feeding the plants or I don't know, something-- we did something fun.

Gin Stephens: I can remember being an elementary school and also we would have to put our heads down on our desks even in fourth grade because we didn't have recess. Our teacher was just like all the time. It was just our teacher. She had to teach us art. She had to teach us music. She never got a break. So, that was probably like their planning time, put your head down on your desk. But I also had a really hard time doing that. And so, she would give me jobs to do.

Melanie Avalon: Like what?

Gin Stephens: Like grade papers or do different things, but I could not sit still. So, I had lots of sympathy for Will and it was very frustrating as a mom because I could not fix it. I could not make him lie on his nap mat for his teacher. There was nothing I could do. He wasn't going to do it. And so, I was like-- I tried to talk to her. I'm like, “If you could just find-- Let him read a book.” She's like, “Nope, the rule is you have to lie there.” I'm like, “All right. Okie-doke.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: This is random, do they separate you in naptime by girls and boys? Or is it all just like--?

Gin Stephens: Everybody had their spot, and they didn't separate them by boys and girls. No.

Melanie Avalon: I didn’t think so. Good times.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Well, on that note.

Gin Stephens: On that note, my little 21-year-old still wouldn't take a nap today, fella. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, not a napper. I don't understand how you can fall-- it's like take a 20-minute nap. It would take me 20 minutes to like maybe fall asleep. So, I don't know how a person takes like a 20-minute nap.

Gin Stephens: Or maybe the whole experience of a 20-minute nap takes 40 minutes.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it would take like five hours for me. I don't know.

Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode183. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. You can follow me, I'm @melaniemvalon. Gin is @ginstephens. And, yes, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Gin, before we go.

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Talk to you then.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

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