Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 182 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Friends, I have a story for you. I recently got septoplasty to fix my deviated septum so that I could breathe better. And in the recovery period, you're not supposed to wear glasses. Oh, my goodness. I cannot tell you how much I realized how much I adore and need and love BLUblox blue light blocking glasses. I've been wearing them every single night of my life until I got that surgery. Guys, you need this in your life.

In today's world, we're way overexposed to blue light. While blue light is energizing, we're not supposed to be seeing it 24/7, it can raise cortisol, stress levels, create tension and headaches, disrupt your sleep, and so much more. Of course, there are a lot of “blue light blocking glasses” on the market these days, Andy Mant, the founder of BLUblox, he personally realized how incredible blue light blocking glasses were for him personally. So, then he did something crazy and actually tested all the brands on the market to see if they actually were blocking blue light like they said they were. They weren't really. That's why he took things into his own hands to create glasses that would block the blue light you need to be blocking to truly have the healthiest relationship possible with light.

That's also why he made blue light blocking glasses in a lot of different versions. They have clear computer glasses you can wear all day while looking at the computer. They have their SummerGLO lens that block the draining form of blue light while still allowing in some of the energizing wavelengths. They're also tinted with a special yellow color, scientifically shown to boost mood. And, of course, they have their Sleep+ lens, you can put those on a bed and it's just like bam! tired. At least that's the way it works for me because actually blue light can block melatonin production, which helps us naturally fall asleep.

Also, get their Sleep REMedy Mask. Oh, my goodness, I use it every single night. It gives you complete blackout while still putting no pressure on your eyes. Like you wear it, and you can open your eyes completely, and it's completely black. It's mind-blowing. In case you're wondering, I'm still not supposed to be wearing glasses, but I ordered this weird contraption head thing to hold the glasses over my eyes because I just really need the blue light blocking glasses in my life. These glasses also come in a huge array of styles, so you don't have to feel like a weirdo biohacker like me. You can really get any style or frame to fit your personal style.

You can shop with us at blublox.com, that's B-L-U-B-L-O-X dotcom and use the code 'IFPODCAST' to get 15% off. Something else amazing, for every pair of glasses you buy, BLUblox donates a pair of glasses to someone in need. The glasses can also come in prescription made to order. Again, that's blublox.com with the coupon code IFPODCAST for 15% off.

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that what you put on your skin gets direct access to your bloodstream, and in your body can do a lot of detrimental things? So, while you may be fasting clean, you may at the same time be infusing your body with endocrine disrupters, which can mess with your hormones, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight and even carcinogens.

In Europe, they've banned thousands of these compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup, and the US has banned less than 10. In fact, most conventional lipstick, for example, is high in lead and the half-life of lead in the body can be up to 30 years. That means every time you put on some lipstick, you might be putting some lead into your bones which might not leave for three decades. This is a big deal.

Thankfully, there's an easy all-encompassing answer. There's a company called Beautycounter, and they were founded on a mission to make skincare and makeup products that are safe for your skin. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to not burden your body and support your skin health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order.

If you'd like to learn more about safe beauty and also get a ton of amazing discounts and free things from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. Not sure which Beautycounter products to try? I also just made a whole series of online quizzes to match you to your perfect product. Those are at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. So, here's to fasting clean inside and out.

All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome this is episode 182 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody?

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm a little bummed because it's so much the change of seasons. You know how much I love summer?

Melanie Avalon: I love it.

Gin Stephens: I'm wearing jeans. I'm still not wearing shoes, though. I was playing in my closet today looking at-- it's not time to switch it out yet that it's still warm enough, but it was like 76 here. But I have these shorts. Have I ever talked about my GAP shorts from the 90s that I still have?

Melanie Avalon: Maybe, refresh my memory.

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know why I saved these shorts. It was before I had kids. It was these GAP shorts, they're size 8 from like 1995 I'm guessing. It shows how sizes have changed so much over time. Because in college, I was probably about the same weight I am now, I might be a little smaller now but I don't know, but in college, I was a size eight.

Melanie Avalon: So, sizes have--?

Gin Stephens: Oh, changed big time. Yeah, vanity sizing.

Melanie Avalon: So, what would an 8 be now?

Gin Stephens: Well, just for a perspective, these are size 8 from the GAP from, like I said, about '95 and they're too big for me everywhere except the waist. The waist fits me. So, I have the same size waist that I had when I was 25 years old, which is awesome. But the butt and the thighs are just giant. But again, also, they're pleated and they're khaki shorts. I mean the clothes we wore back in that era were just not attractive.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Pleated khaki shorts. I mean they're like a bell. They're not cute. The waist fits me perfectly, but they're size 8 and I'm sitting here right now in zero jeans that the waist fits. So yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, they're similar sized, but those are an 8 compared to zero now.

Gin Stephens: Yes. Well, I mean, they are too big for me except in the waist. But I think a lot of things now have relaxed waists.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Wow. So, back then zero must have been like?

Gin Stephens: I don't remember anyone being a zero, really. I don't remember it. I don't remember people even being a zero. Did they even have zero? I'm not sure it was. I know when I was 12 years old, I was tiny. Okay, tiny. My mother got remarried. And I was like a flower girl, it was this tiny little wedding, but I had a Gunne Sax brand dress. This is from the 80s, okay. Early 80s, maybe even late 70s, this brand Gunne Sax. It was this [unintelligible [00:07:54] style with ribbon and all that. And I think I was a size 3. I was like 12 and tiny.

Melanie Avalon: Because kid sizes are in one, three, five?

Gin Stephens: This is junior size.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay.

Gin Stephens: This junior size 3, someone who wears a 5 or a 7 now versus-- but I was itty-bitty and wearing a 3. I mean, I haven't been able to wear junior sizes though ever since I really went through puberty. I've always been in the even sizes, because I'm curvier.

Melanie Avalon: I remember going to Paris, and the sizes there are like--

Gin Stephens: Really different?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they're probably more like what it used to be here.

Gin Stephens: Probably what it used to be here in like the 50s or something. [laughs] But sizes have changed so much. And every time I pull out those shorts, it's hilarious. I have a pair of jeans from the GAP that I wore in the early 2000s. It was after I finished having kids and I lost the weight back. It was in the unfortunate diet pills era, but I felt really good in these jeans. They're size 4. No, wait, they're size 6, that was a lie. They're size 6 from the GAP. And they're like mom jeans, and they are big in the waist. I'm smaller now than I was during the diet pill days, but they're hilarious fitting too. And the GAP was just not having good clothes, and I was buying them up apparently. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: For shirts, because I'm a pretty small person but I like all my-- like t-shirts and stuff, I always like extra larges or extra-extra larges. Especially because brands want to send us stuff and they want to send shirts a lot and they're like, “What size?” I'm like, “Extra-large.” They're like--

Gin Stephens: I'm like small.

Melanie Avalon: Every time, Gin. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't like them being big.

Melanie Avalon: I don't like being confined. I don't like clothes actually.

Gin Stephens: I don't like feeling confined. But I like things to fit me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Oh, wait, can I mention one thing since we're talking about clothes? I just got a-- new company from LA, they're making grounding shoes. I am so excited. I can probably get them to send you a pair if it's something you're interested in.

Gin Stephens: I would love to try their shoes.

Melanie Avalon: I will get on that. For listeners, they only make the sandals. But I just got my pair and I'm so excited because what I had been using was these grounding strips, I don't know if they actually work. For those who don't know what we're talking about, it's basically so that when you walk on natural earth, the ions in the earth-- it's something to do with the energy of the earth. And it's not like some woo-woo thing, it's very much real.

Gin Stephens: Well, my husband who's an organic chemist, things have charges. Every time you have static electricity, or thunder, lightning, that's static, that's energy being transferred. So, we know scientifically that energy transfers, that's not woo-woo. It's real, we see it.

Melanie Avalon: And by being on natural earth, it has a very natural healing effect on the body compared to when we're constantly not actually touching the ground. So, it's beneficial to get yourself grounded, which you do by walking outside barefoot. But if you have shoes on, obviously, you're not touching the ground. That's why they made these grounding shoes that they conduct the charge from the earth to your body. So, they're really cool. I got really excited. I'll put a link because I think I have a discount for them too. So, I'll put a link in the show notes to it.

Gin Stephens: Well, the reason I brought up the clothes, in case, everybody's like why are we talking about the GAP clothes from the 90s, the point is that people get so caught up in sizes and it's just meaningless, the way things are sized. I have things in my closet that fit me, zero to four. If I go to my old clothes, six and eight. If you go to a vintage store, sizes are going to be really different. So, you've got to just not worry about the sizes. Easier said than done.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, actually, Gin, we have a question, since we're talking about all of these sizes and what it all means, this wasn't on the lineup for today, but how would you feel if I do a surprise question?

Gin Stephens: That would be awesome. I would love a surprise question.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, because I've been wanting to do this question for a while. So, I feel like it's appropriate right now with everything that we're talking about. Our first question comes from Nicole, the subject is "Product You May Love and Questions." And Nicole says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, thank you so much for your awesome podcast. Gin, I love your down-to-earth personality. And Melanie, I adore your curious mind. First off, I wanted to share with you a product for your listeners, especially the ones that have a fear of the scale. I own a zero scale. It's a digital scale that sets your weight at zero and tells you up or down pounds. It doesn't reveal your weight. I'm not sure this exact scale is around, but I've seen similar items, and I've attached a link.”

And she attached a link to a scale called Shapa. When we got this email, Gin was like, “I want to talk about this!” So, Gin, would you like to talk about this? I have no idea what this is.

Gin Stephens: Yes, I'm so glad you pulled that one out today because I have a Shapa scale. You know how I said I haven't weighed myself since 2017? Well, it's both true, and now false. It's true that I have no idea what the number is because the Shapa numberless scale does not show you your number. Well, you can set it to show you your number, but I have set mine not to show my number. If you get this scale everybody, do not sync it with Apple Health, or it will show you your number on Apple Health. People are like, “Oh, no, it showed me the number!”

We were just having this conversation, in fact, my moderators today about weight maintenance and the scale going up and down. If you're in maintenance, you're going to be within a weight range, which means that your weight might fluctuate within even a 10-pound range and you're not gaining weight or losing weight. But you get on the scale and it's up five pounds from yesterday, and then you have this panic of, “Am I gaining weight?” “What's happening?” Because we know the only thing that matters is your overall trend.

In all of my books, I wrote about weighing daily, and then once a week, you calculate a weekly average and you only compare the weekly averages, and that will really save your sanity. But you still have to see the fluctuations of like today, you're up five pounds, and it freaks you out a little bit. At least it did me. So, that's why I threw my scale away and I haven't gotten on a scale from 2017 until today. I mean not today, but I mean like the past six weeks. So, over three years, not standing on any kind of scale.

Well, someone told me about the Shapa scale. I've been raving about it in my Facebook groups, but if you go to myshapa.com, it tells you all about it. Now, the creator of this scale, I don't know how to say his last name. His name is Dan Ariely. A-R-I-E-L-Y. That’s how I'm saying it, that could be so wrong if it is, Dan, I'm sorry. He's the creator of Shapa. He actually is a professor of psychology and behavioral economics from Duke University. His TED talks have been viewed over 15 million times. I'm reading this off their website. Now, I just went to it real quick. And he's written three New York Times bestsellers. In 2018, he was named one of the 50 most influential living psychologists in the world.

Okay, so this guy, I wanted to say that to let you know, that he knows what he's doing with psychology. For me, the thought of having a scale with numbers really gives me anxiety because if I got on the scale and I didn't like the number, it would make me want to diet or make me want to do certain things. Any of us who have been obese or overweight, we had this panic that we're going to regain all the weight. Even though I've been maintaining since 2015, seeing a number on a scale could really upset me. It is what it is. So, the scale does not show you a number unless you set it to, it only gives you color feedback.

So, for the first 10 days, you stand on it, and you have to do it twice a day, while it's calibrating, you get on in the morning, you have to have the app open on your smartphone. You get on it, you get off of it, then you do it again in the evening, you get on, you get off. And then after about 10 days-- it could take a few more than 10. It took me 10. You start seeing colors. And the color lets you know what your trend is doing. So, if you get green on your app, that means your weight is maintaining over time. If you get teal, that means you're losing a little weight, you're on a slight downward trend. Blue means you're on a really good solid downward trend. And there's a couple of shades of grey you could get, which shows that your trend is going up.

Now some people are like, “Well, how does that help because what if you got on one day and it was green, and the next day it was gray, and the next day it was blue?” And that's not how it works. So, that wouldn't happen. Remember that Dan is a professor of psychology, so he understands the fluctuations are the problem. He doesn't just give you fluctuating color. It does complicated statistics, and it only shows you what your actual trend with all this complicated math is doing. So, if you get on, it's not going to just give you random fluctuation colors. So, that's why-- I've just loved getting on it. It coincided with the month that I had first given up drinking for a month, no alcohol for a month. So, I actually the first color I got was green the first day based on my calibration. But then after that, I've been slowly teal. I've been slowly losing some weight, some of the bloat that I guess I put on over the increased baking and drinking of the pandemic. The only change I've made is not drinking and I've been on a solid teal. So, I'm losing a little bit of that pandemic fluff that may have come on. But that's the thing that's so fabulous for me. I don't have any nervousness about stepping on it. I'm not worried, even if it showed me gray, just showed my trend was going up, I would be like, “Alright, time to reverse this trend,” but it's different than that number.

So, anyway, if anyone's interested, go to myshapa.com. And I actually have partnered with them because I love them so much. As soon as I read about it, I got it. And then, I started badgering them with emails till they finally returned my email. And I'm like, “I really, really, really want to have a relationship with y'all for my podcast because I think that this could be life-changing.” There are a lot of people like me that are absolutely terrified of the scale and don't want to see that number. It might be crazy. Maybe if I was 100% healthy, I wouldn't care but there's still that emotion tied up in it. Dan, the behavioral psychologist degrees, a lot of people really don't do well with that. So, if you go to myshapa.com and you use the promo code 'IFSTORIES,' which is associated with my Intermittent Fasting Stories podcast with the program, you sign up for their program, and it's like a yearly subscription to their app, but then they send you the scale for free, you save $30 on the program.

And after the year is over, the year that you've signed up for, you do not have to renew, and you can continue to use the app. It doesn't stop working. You don't have to renew. Anyway, it's super awesome. And I am weighing on it every day. I don't know how much I weigh, but I don't need to.

Melanie Avalon: That is really cool. I had never heard of this before. So, what does it look like? Does it look like a normal scale?

Gin Stephens: It doesn't have a window. It just it's like a round disc and it has like these little silver crescents that you step on. And so, you step on them and it reads what's happening. It also claims that it is reporting the changes in your body composition, not just your raw weight. So, if you're building muscle but losing fat, it should adjust for that, I think, based on what I've read, because it's checking your whole body composition and looking for positive changes. It does not reveal what the colors mean, as far as how much you're losing. It just shows you the overall trend, but I'm really enjoying it. From someone who said, “I'll never have a scale again,” I've got it.

The whole time I've gone through menopause-- by the way, I am two weeks away from officially being able to say, “I'm done with menopause,” or through it on the other side, because you have to go a year. But you worry-- when you have lost over 80 pounds, you worry that one day maybe it's going to be menopause, maybe it's going to be too much wine, but all of a sudden, you're going to balloon back up again and gain all the weight back. So, now, for the rest of my life, I'll be able to get on the scale and not have that fear of, “Oh no. Am I secretly gaining weight?” or “My pants a little tight.” I'll know.

Melanie Avalon: Well, actually, to your point, Nicole, the follow-up sentence where she says, “I have anxiety about numbers, and this has been life-saving.”

Gin Stephens: Yeah, she's got the zero scale. And I don't know that tells you whether you're up or down pounds. I don't know that I'd like that. Because remember, if I got on it, and it said, “You're up five pounds,” I think I would start to cry. I wouldn't like my scale telling me I was up five pounds or down two pounds. I don't want to hear any numbers, which is why I like Shapa so much. I don't hear numbers. I don't hear anything. I just only see that nice little blue or the teal or the green. And I don't even know.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if it tells you the actual pound or if it just is like up.

Gin Stephens: I wouldn't want to hear up. It feels like to me you would get on and it would just tell you whether you were up or down. I just know me. I weighed for the first year of maintenance, I weighed, but every time I got on and it was up, I panicked in my brain, even though I was like, “All right. It's okay.” Every time I saw up, it made me feel, “Ugh.” And when it went down, I was like, “Ooh.” But not even having to know the fluctuations, just knowing what the overall trend is doing, it's just a breath of fresh air. Anyway, to get me to have a scale again is pretty incredible. And the company's been great. So, I'm a huge fan. And my shapa.com, promo code 'IFSTORIES.'

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you should get one too.

Melanie Avalon: You actually convinced me. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go get one right now.

Gin Stephens: And then you could see what's happening. But you don't have to worry about the number.

Melanie Avalon: I like colors too.

Gin Stephens: I like colors too. They have one that's like white, that's the one I got. It's like a wood-tone white. And then, they have like a grayish-blackish white, and then they have an oaky-- no, the black is just not white, I don’t know why I said white. It's a blackish wood-tone grayish-blackish. Anyway, white, black, wood tone, but they all have wood graining. It looks really pretty in the bathroom.

Melanie Avalon: Can I say one thing about colors just because it made me think of it?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Yesterday, I saw a rainbow and I think I literally contemplate the nature of rainbows for an hour. I was googling and reading all about rainbows. And then, I was reading about linguistic relativity, which is my new favorite thing.

Gin Stephens: I don't even know what that is.

Melanie Avalon: I think we've actually talked about it before. It's the idea that we can only understand things we have words for. So, different cultures can see different colors based on what words they have colors for.

Gin Stephens: Wow, that's cool.

Melanie Avalon: It's really cool. And then my mind was being blown, I was like, “Wait, so what colors can I see that other people can't see?” [laughs] Because we don't have a word for it.

Gin Stephens: And then, there's the wrinkle of-- I've talked about before, I guess, Chad having that weird colorblindness. Remember me talking about that? Or did I? How he can't see? He's got blue-yellow colors, I'm crazy, I don't know I'd never heard of. We've all heard of red-green colorblindness, but I had never heard it. Well, I assume we all have. I had never heard of the blue yellow. It's driving me crazy though, Melanie. He sees things so differently. We got some art, and he can't see it. I'm like, “What is your problem? It's beautiful. It looks perfect." And he's like, “No," I want him to see and love the environment that he lives in too, so that's what's hard. I'm not dealing with someone who sees it properly. I am having to make my house look good to someone who sees it differently than me because I care about how he feels in the home. That's tricky.

Melanie Avalon: Hi friends. I am so incredibly excited about what I'm about to share with you. October is National Seafood Month and you guys know I am a huge fan of seafood for its outstanding health benefits. Fish can be a wonderful source of protein and nutrients with especially favorable omega 3, 6 ratios. The problem is that our modern oceans are polluted, and many, if not most fish that you can buy is contaminated with mercury along with antibiotics and other hormone-disrupting chemicals. And guys, this is a big deal. I had mercury toxicity. I know, trust me. I know. That's why I am so honored, so grateful to tell you about my favorite fish on the planet that doesn't come with any of these problems.

It's Australis Barramundi. They raise their fish responsibly for the health of both us and the environment. Barramundi is a lean whitefish with the highest omega-3 content of any white fish, and wait for it, because of the raising practices utilized by Australis, their barramundi is tested to be free of mercury and antibiotics. And it tastes amazing. It's tender and lean, yet really satisfying with a whopping 32 grams of protein. It honestly melts in your mouth. I am just obsessed with this fish. Australis Barramundi’s frozen skinless portions are available nationwide at Whole Foods, Albertsons, Sprouts, Mariano's, Fresh Thyme, Instacart, and more.

And of course, they have a special offer just for our listeners. Our listeners can get $2 off any in-store purchase made before the end of the year. To get your free coupon, just go to better.fish/if2020 to claim yours. Again, that’s better.fish/if2020 to get your $2 off in-store coupon. I am obsessed with Australis. I know you guys ask me a lot, “What was that fish that you're talking about that you love?” This is it. Australis Barramundi. Definitely try it out.

All right, now back to the show.

Well, back to Nicole's question.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, I was so excited when I read that question when it said Shapa, the link that she gave to Shapa numberless scale, I was like, “What?”

Melanie Avalon: Just for listeners. I go through and categorize all the questions and occasionally, Gin will pop in her thoughts. And if it's really important to her, she makes it very known. So, with this one, she was like, “I was just so excited.” She's like, “I must talk about this.” So, yeah. From the rest of Nicole's email, she says, “Now to my fasting question. I've mostly stayed at an average weight since puberty, but always struggled to lose 20 pounds, which would put my five-foot-six frame at around 130, 135. I've gone up and down with those 20 pounds throughout my life, but around four years ago, I was able to get to 133 effortlessly, I am 42. The only thing I changed at the time that I can remember was eating more lentils and broccoli. Lol.

A year and a half ago, I got two tooth infections, had to have wisdom teeth removed and a root canal. The wisdom tooth surgery was a coronectomy, awful pain, and I basically lived with clove essential oil in my mouth for two months. The root canal was regular, but I had to go on antibiotics for prevention. I'm pretty sure I'll be doing holistic dentistry from now on. After these instances, weight crept on and I was back up to 155 even though no eating habits had changed. I had tried all my tricks of the past, but nothing worked.

After a trial with keto, which did not end successfully, I came across IF and started studying the science behind it. That's where I found all three of your podcasts. Happy to report I started IF in February of this year, I'm fasting completely clean and I can easily do a window of 16 to 20 hours, give or take that awful mid-March to May time, I've noted many non-scale victories. Rosacea is gone, aches are gone, energy, etc. But I've not lost weight. I had an awful time in the beginning, which is what I think was my body detoxing, awful menstruation, skin issues, etc. But it all worked itself out. I'm eating less than I ever have now and healthier. My diet is well rounded, 90% clean, organic, wheat, dairy, and egg-free by choice. I'm incredibly in tune with my body and I know something is still missing even with all the health benefits.

I also have hypothyroid and I am working on finding a new endocrinologist who do extensive testing since my current doctor will not run these tests. I can't find anyone local to run proper and extensive hormone testing, but I'm trying to find a telehealth doctor. I will continue to investigate these issues. But can there be anything I'm missing from my teeth incidents that can clue you to what path I should take, considering as when I saw a huge change in weight to happen so quickly? I've cut alcohol during the week, lowered carbs, changed windows meditated, tapped, and tried changing what I ate, bought a glucose monitor to track as well. I feel like I'm obsessing but getting this under control especially since losing this weight before menopause is very important to me.

Any help, advice is appreciated. If patience is key, I'll get there. I haven't done ADF. Can't seem to get there. But if that is what it takes… You both to me are masterminds at figuring these things out. I'm hoping you give me some suggestions as to what to do. I am celebrating the non-scale victories and the health benefits but losing weight to me, especially since I know I was at that 135 range for a long time, is very important. Thank you so much for all you guys do. You are my favorite podcast to listen to and are a super team. XOXO. Nicole, from New Jersey.”

Gin Stephens: Well, Nicole, it is great to hear from you. And that struggle, I can totally understand when you've been maintaining for your whole life. Even though you had to go up and down a little bit, you could always get there, and then all of a sudden, nothing is working. And I think it's great that you can pinpoint that turning point when you had that dental work, and you had to go on to antibiotics for prevention. We hear that kind of thing a lot. People have a turning point with their health. Often, it involves some medication. Sometimes, it might be steroids. For you, it was antibiotics. And that causes something in your body to change and then all of a sudden, your weight is really different on the other side of that event.

I've talked before about a friend of mine who had food poisoning. And then after that, she could not keep the weight on, she could not maintain her weight. Her weight just went down and down and down and down for like forever. She was getting skinnier and skinnier and trying to eat more, trying to put the weight on, and she could not. I tell this story again to illustrate that that affected her gut microbiome, and something in there shifted. And so, whatever that population was, she could not use her food properly and she could not gain the weight at all. She had to really work. It took her, I don't know, over a year to rebuild her gut microbiome and get her health back to where she could maintain what was a healthy weight for her.

I would really think about focusing on rebuilding your gut microbiome. I understand the importance of it, but I am not a gut microbiome rebuilding expert. Dr. Ruscio. How do you say it? Michael Ruscio, is that his name?

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Michael Ruscio. Healthy Gut, Healthy You.

Gin Stephens: Healthy Gut, Healthy You, that was the name of the book. He came on our podcast, gosh, was it 2017 or 2018?

Melanie Avalon: It was a while ago. I had him on mine too since then. But, yeah, he's great.

Gin Stephens: He's great. His book lays out some different things to try because his goal is to get your gut back to where it needs to be building things back up. I believe it can be done after watching my friend go through that, and how she was able to heal. But it's really, really important. A lot of it is trial and error. Do you have anything to add about that?

Melanie Avalon: That was exactly what I was going to say. The gut microbiome plays such a huge role. And it really can for so many people, I think, be the defining factor in making this shift between struggling with your weight or not, struggling with your weight. I'm actually reading a book right now. Have you heard of Joel Greene?

Gin Stephens: I don't think so.

Melanie Avalon: I heard him on Ben Greenfield’s podcast, and it was like a two-part podcast. The stuff he was saying was like the most mind-blowing stuff ever. I think I talked about him briefly on this podcast. He was saying how all the problems with yo-yo dieting and how losing weight-- was it losing or gaining weight? How one of those actually damages the fat cells or damages your body to lose and gain weight. In any case, I'm reading his book right now, and I just started it, and it's a doozy.

Gin Stephens: What's it called?

Melanie Avalon: It's called The Immunity Guide. Like I said, just started it, but his theory is that all of this goes back to our immune cells, and how they're reacting to things and whether it's inflammatory or noninflammatory, and that the gut microbiome plays a role in that. Apparently, this book has a whole plan to fix it. The reason I brought it up is that when there are foundational shifts in the body, it's hard to know what's what. But the shift itself can create change, like with the microbiome, how your body reacts to all of that can change. So, you might start having chronic inflammation and reactions to everything whereas you did before. It's really hard to lose weight in an inflamed state, it's a lot harder.

In any case, I like what Gin said. I would say something to focus on-- especially since you don't want to go like the ADF route, I do think focusing on the gut microbiome would be the way to go. The cool thing is there's not one answer to that. People will say there's one answer, don't we know that? But people seemingly “fix their microbiome” or get it back to a healthy state on a variety of diets. Some people feel they do that through a keto approach, some people through a higher-carb approach. That's why I do really love Dr. Ruscio’s Healthy Gut, Healthy You because it's like a choose your own adventure. He goes through the science of everything and then a plan, but it's not one plan. Pretty much every other book out there is one plan.

Gin Stephens: Right. Like, “Here is the one thing that's wrong with everyone, just do this.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And do this plan. So, occasionally, it'll be like, “Oh, maybe skip this step or this step.” But his is very much like, “If you're this, start here. If you're this, start here. Then when this happens, go here.” So, it's very individualized.

Gin Stephens: Yes. And which was what I loved about it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's also almost macronutrient agnostic. He does talk about how a lot of people do need to start at low carb just because they can't tolerate the carbs because of all the dysbiosis or their metabolic health or whatever. But he's very much like about finding the carb level that works for the individual. And so, it's all different carb approaches as well. So, yeah, we'll put a link to it in the show notes. I would say definitely, definitely probably try that out. And it's so great that you are experiencing all these other great non-scale victories. Which actually, to that point, I think I've said something a little bit misleading because I was saying it's really hard to gain weight if you're in a constantly inflamed state, but other non-scale victories indicate to me inflammation is going down because your rosacea has gone, aches are gone, energy, etc. So, that's really exciting. Sounds like your body's really benefiting from this. I do think with tweaks and patience even like she says, you could definitely find your way.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And there's also the other factors that-- she's hypothyroid is also an issue. That could be something too. It all kind of just goes together.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm really glad, actually, that you pointed out the hypothyroid thing. I totally meant to talk about that, because that could definitely be huge. She does say that she's working on finding a new endocrinologist since her doctor won't run the tests. Well, she sounds like she's aware about the tests that are needed. Nicole, you can check out our interview with Elle Russ, All About The Thyroid. But, yeah, if you're not on the right dose for thyroid medication or don't have that address, then it can definitely be really hard to lose weight. But, in any case, it really sounds like you are on the right track. You're seeing lots of benefits, non-scale victories like we talked about. And I really think that patience like you said and trying some things, and I'm sure you can get there.

Gin Stephens: And also thinking about ADF, if you wanted to try an up-down day approach that's more of a mild up-down day-- you could do a one-hour window, and then more of a long window the next day, and then a one-hour window. So, it's not like full-on ADF but you're giving it that up and down-ish pattern. So, try that and see.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. All right. Shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes. All right. So, the next question is from Sheree. And the subject is "BiOptimizer Confusion. “I am doing IF and it is going slowly, but steadily. Listening to your podcasts is a good inspiration and motivation for me. My question is on the BiOptimizer products. I would like to add in a product one at a time, but don't know where to start or what is best for me. I am 60, fairly healthy. Sugar’s a bit high but coming down. I sleep okay. I'm fairly calm. From the podcasts and all the reading I have done on their products, it sounds like I may benefit from several products, but my primary focus should start with helping to lose weight. What would be your thoughts? Thanks, Sheree.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Sheree. So, fantastic question. Definitely, if you're not in my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, definitely join there, because people talk about BiOptimizers like every single day. But I know it can be confusing because they have a lot of supplements. And for listeners, we've had Wade and Matt, the founders on the podcast, what like three times now? Two or three times?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think it's three.

Melanie Avalon: Three? I think so.

Gin Stephens: We had Wade by himself. Then we had them both together. Did we have Wade by himself twice? I know we've had him together twice. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I think we had them both together twice and Wade-- we might have had them four times. I don't know. We've had them a lot.

Gin Stephens: I just love them, though because they coexist with such different dietary regimens and acknowledge that we're all different. Those are my favorite people.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, because Wade is like plant-based vegetarian-- I think he's still vegetarian. And Matt is like keto, like carnivore at times. They're like complete opposites. But they realize that our bodies are so unique. Their main thing is that the root of a lot of issues are in the gut, which is what we were talking about earlier. And that addressing that and getting our digestion order can be so huge for just everything and performance, health, everything. I remember Wade made a comment on-- I think when we interviewed him, and it's something that has like, stuck with me to this day. And he said, “People confuse the results with the change.” And this has haunted me, but it was basically the idea that oftentimes people will make a drastic dietary change, and they'll lose weight or things will get better. But then, they'll plateau or things will even get worse. But they think because all of the results happened when they made that drastic dietary change, they think that dietary change was the answer. When really, it was most likely-- it was probably pulling something out of their diet or adding something in. That actual paradigm shift wasn't like the be-all end-all. But the quote has just haunted me to this day.

In any case, so for the confusion, because they do make a lot of stuff. So, none of their stuff is like a weight loss thing because they're not like a weight loss pill. Like I said, it's more holistic. If the reason you're struggling with your weight or struggling with your health is because you're not digesting things, for example, they make digestive enzymes. They can help you digest your food. They make P3OM, it's a probiotic. It's a proteolytic strain, meaning, actually breaks down protein, has antiviral properties. It's one of the few probiotics-- Actually, it's probably like the only probiotic I consistently will take or turn to. I could also probably recommend it for Nicole as well. So, I'll put links to that in show notes. They make a keto supplement called kApex for people doing ketogenic diets. Somebody actually just posted in my Facebook group the other day about it. They were like, “This is a game-changer.”

Gin Stephens: In what way?

Melanie Avalon: I guess they were doing keto for a long time, and not digesting their food well or not feeling energy from the keto diet. And they started taking it and they said that they were digesting food better, that they had amazing energy, and that it was the answer to making the keto diet work for them, which is the reason they make that supplement. And then, they make magnesium because magnesium is super important for stress. It's one of the one-- I don't want to say one of the one because the book I'm reading right now is talking about how we're depleted in all micronutrients. But it's probably one of the primary nutrients that we really need more of, and we just don't get enough of because of our modern soils and modern food. So, they make a really comprehensive magnesium supplement that, again, in my group, people talk about all the time about just being a game-changer. But, Sheree, so none of them are to help you lose weight. They're to help you get your body back into balance so that you can lose weight naturally.

Anyway, definitely join my Facebook group and ask your question there, because people will give you lots of opinions and you can probably get more specific answers.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And it really just depends on issues that you're having and what you need. We don't all need the same supplements. We don't all need everything that BiOptimizer sells. You might need one of their things or two of their things, or zero of their things. But don't feel like, “Well, I've got to get their entire catalog of things.” So, you have to figure out what do you need. I've told this story before, maybe not everyone has heard it. But a friend of mine takes some supplement and she was like, “This supplement is the one that's changed my life.” And then I was like, “Oh, maybe I should try that. I would like to change my life.” And I started taking it, and it made me feel worse and worse and worse. And then, I started researching it and it is based on like a genetic thing that she's got and I don't, and it was the wrong supplement for me. So, never take a supplement just because someone else is having great results with, it might be totally wrong for you.

Melanie Avalon: And we talked about this last week, Gin. I'm more and more of the opinion of minimal supplements, less supplements rather than more. I would prefer 100% that we could just get all of our nutrients from food and never need a supplement ever again. That's why actually if you look at what BiOptimizers makes, it's not actually-- with the exception of magnesium, which is a nutrient, their main thing is digestive enzymes and HCl. So, it's something that is helping you digest your food.

Gin Stephens: It supports digestion.

Melanie Avalon: But in a dream world, nobody would need digestive support because they could just radically digest everything. But a lot of us do because of our gut situation, the foods we're eating, our environment. Our vagus nerve is just all out of whack. So, that can be really helpful. And then, the other one they make probiotic which is different than like a nutrient per se. Like I said, the only really nutrient they do is magnesium. I think they have a mineral supplement. In a dream world, we would not need any. Although I will say, I plucked this last week, but, Gin, I'm taking NR and NMN again, and I swear it's changing my life. Like, why did I stop?

Gin Stephens: And I'm pretty simple. I just take my magnesium at bedtime. There's one multivitamin that I take it with my dinner and that's it. And really, it's because I do try to eat a wide variety of foods and hope to get everything I need for my foods. But it's a really good high-quality multivitamin. They actually sponsor my podcast. So, other than that, though, that's pretty much it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm excited because I'm about to interview, and I mentioned this last time, but Caltons who Rebuild Your Bones. Although now, they have me worried because they're talking about studies where apparently, there was one study where they challenged dietitians to make a diet in different categories, I don't know what it was. I think one was Atkins and one was DASH-- I don't know there's different ones and they were challenged to make a diet that would fulfill like all micronutrients and be “palatable,” which may be the key, maybe that's the key, but be “palatable” and be a certain amount of calories and none of the dietitians could do it. I was like, “Oh, that's disconcerting.” So, yeah,

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All right, now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: In any case, shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, we have a question from Laura. The subject is "Weekend Sabotage." Laura says, “Hi ladies. so thankful I found you. What When Wine started all this for me. Feeling great but would love to lean out but crave tough workouts and that muscular look. Would you be able to explain what effect alcohol on the weekends is doing to my body? I will be honest, I am not just having a glass of wine on the weekends on my up days, definitely more than that. But wondering what the science is behind alcohol on the weekends.

Here's a typical week for me. I've been IFing since March of 2019. Monday through Thursday, one meal a day, 24, always a whole30 meal. It is a struggle on Monday though, but I power through. Friday, I fast, till we go out around six but eat and drink whatever I want breakfast, lunch, and dinner but smaller portions because I know I'll be eating three meals, not whole30 until Sunday afternoon around 2:00 PM, then have a healthy dinner whole30. I work out four to five days a week including rowing, running, Peloton, and weights, a variation of these options all week. Plus, walk the dogs four to five times a week, one to two miles a day.

I'm totally stuck. I'm not losing weight. I am at a healthy weight, but definitely squishy in the middle. I read Fast. Feast. Repeat. and I think I will try Some Things Out of the Toolbox with messing around with the length of my window and up and down days. But I'm still curious what my Friday nights to Sunday afternoon is doing scientifically, glycogen stores, insulin, etc. I've also been listening to Melanie talk about Siim Land and muscle building tips. I check my activity with my Apple Watch and it says I burn 2200 to 2500 calories a day, which I don't think I'm eating one meal a day. So, I recently added last week a protein shake to open my window to help get more protein in during my eating window. I'm five feet five inches, 45 years old, newly retired middle schoolteacher, Gin. My hubby and I typically don't drink during the week Monday through Thursday. I weigh on Friday mornings and it takes me till Thursday the next week to get back to where I started. Ugh! Thank you for all your research. I admire both of your passions for health and educating people. Hugs from So Cal.” I have so many thoughts about this question.

Gin Stephens: Me too. And to be honest with you, I'm just going to say, Laura, you've probably heard me talk about-- I don't know when this came in, in relation to what I've been talking about my month of no alcohol and it's extending because I just feel so much better. Did I talk last time, Melanie, about how I drank for my PREDICT study and then couldn't sleep and felt terrible?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I don't think I connected it to the PREDICT study, but yeah.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Oh, that's why I wanted to see what it did on my blood glucose meter. So, I did it for science and then I felt awful again and--

Melanie Avalon: Oh yeah. Yeah, you did.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I thought so. Basically, Laura, what just rocked my world recently was realizing that I am a slow alcohol metabolizer. I talk about in Fast. Feast. Repeat. how when I was trying to get to my initial goal weighed in 2015, I delayed alcohol. It was about a 10-week period. I was almost at my goal, and I wanted to lose, I think it was 20 more pounds to get there so I could buy all my spring clothes and just be that size and not have to buy different clothes, and spring was coming. So, I delayed alcohol, meaning I didn't have any alcohol at all. And I also delayed ultra-processed foods and I ate just whole foods, real foods, plenty of carbs, but real potatoes, real beans, lots of butter or sour cream cheese, just real food. And I lost about two pounds a week. Thinking back on that, now that I understand that I'm a slow alcohol metabolizer, it really like it takes my body days after drinking to get back to a good fat-burning state. And you might say, “Well, how do you know that?”

Well, I went the whole month without any alcohol at all and then I tested a couple glasses of wine at the beach with Chad. I'm using this breath ketone monitor that Melanie had them send me to play around with, and I can 100% see that it takes my body a while to get back into ketosis when I've had alcohol. So, one big thing that jumps out at me is what you said how it's a struggle every Monday, but you power through. So, that indicates, if you're sluggish and struggling-- yeah, I always just assumed it was I'd refilled my glycogen storage. I just assumed that. But now I realized that-- even when I was at the beach with Chad, I didn't eat all that much. I waited till late in the day, I didn't have longer, relaxed vacation windows. Chad doesn't like to pay for a lot of money to go out to eat. So, we ate at the condo, which made him really happy. And I like to cook, so that was fine. I didn't mind. So, it wasn't like I had eaten a lot and refilled my glycogen stores. But then, the same thing happened from just two glasses of wine. It took me a few days to really get back to normal.

So, I would like to challenge you to delay alcohol, give it a month. I just want you to see. You'll know at the end of that month if it's making a difference or not, see how you feel on Monday. Don't change the weekend eating, just the drinking. And I want you to try that experiment and then write back and let us know. I'm just so curious if it might be as huge for you as it is for me. I knew that it made a difference for me when I was losing weight. Now, I have a hunch as to why. I haven't been able to find a lot of science out there, a lot of people writing about this idea of this-- the whole idea of being a fast alcohol metabolizer, slow metabolizer, whatever. But I think it could be an issue for a lot of people that maybe don't realize it.

Melanie Avalon: This is funny because I'm probably gonna say almost the exact opposite thing. But I think it's great because it's a lot of different approaches and we're all so different. So, I'll give you another perspective, Laura, maybe we can try it all out and see what works for you personally because like Gin said, we're all different. When I read this, I see that you're doing one meal a day, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Then, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, so not even one day, but the weekend, like she says, “Weekend Sabotage.”

Gin Stephens: Well, she fasts till 6:00 PM on Friday.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, Friday normal and then Saturday all day. And then, I'm assuming alcohol on Saturday. And then, Sunday--

Gin Stephens: She eats from 2:00 till dinner. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, still eating. Saturday and Sunday. Alcohol added on Friday, assuming alcohol on Saturday evening, and then eating basically all day Saturday and Sunday.

Gin Stephens: Well, Sunday, she fasts until Sunday afternoon around 2:00 and then have a healthy dinner. I'm not really sure what she does on Sunday. Sunday's confusing.

Melanie Avalon: She drinks whatever I want breakfast, lunch, dinner, because [unintelligible [00:53:57] eating three meals until Sunday afternoon around 2:00 and then have a healthy dinner. Oh, it sounds like she does that non-whole30 from all day, Saturday, Sunday, but then she jumps back into whole30 Sunday evening. That's how I'm reading it.

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah, she does say Friday night to Sunday afternoon later. So, you're right, that she does say that later. Friday night through Sunday afternoon.

Melanie Avalon: When I see this, I see Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, whole30, one meal a day. Then Friday, one meal a day, but alcohol, and then eating-- completely changing what you're eating and eating all day, Saturday, anything all day Sunday with alcohol throughout on the weekend. So, just seeing that objectively, the thing that really jumps out to me isn't the alcohol. It's the massive change in the food. It could be just the alcohol. Just like stepping back and this is like a crazy thought experiment and this is not meant to be taken literally. But if for example, you ate what you'd normally eat whole30 but all you did was add alcohol-- and don't do this, it's not I'm saying-- I'm going to extremes, just think about this. Even if you added like thousands and thousands and thousands of calories of alcohol to your preexisting whole30, you wouldn't store any of that alcohol. It wouldn't be healthy and would not be a good thing to do. But that's not actually going to create weight loss. Compared to eating thousands and thousands of calories, which we don't know if you're doing but switching from whole30 to eating whatever you want, especially with our modern processed food, it's really easy to take in a lot of calories, especially if you're in this mindset of weekends, like no whole30, like go big or go home. And you're not just going big or going home one day, which can often be really helpful, especially for people fasting every single day, one meal a day and then having an off day, but this is sort of starting on a Friday night, going in all day, Saturday, continuing Sunday, and not going back to normal until Sunday. So, that's a long time to switch your food choices from noninflammatory whole foods that even if say they're the same amount of calories of more processed foods, you probably extract less calories from them. This is a huge food shift is what I'm seeing. And on top of that, if whole30 is anti-inflammatory for you, that inflammation from food can also lead to a lot of weight gain, just from water retention and things like that.

So, what I would encourage you, alcohol could be playing-- It's ironic, I was even thinking it's possible that alcohol might even be slightly protective of weight gain because some people with alcohol actually are less likely to gain weight, some more likely but results are all over the board. And, yes, it was a rodent study, but my mind is still just being blown by that rodent study I read recently that came out this year pretty recently about rodents fed diets meant to make them gain weight and when they had alcohol with it, they didn't experience the metabolic issues that they did when they weren't having alcohol.

So, my advice would be to change just one variable to determine what the cause is. Well, there are a lot of ways you could go about this. Basically, what this is saying to me is you can't have your cake and eat it too. I don't think you can continue in this pattern if you want to not gain weight or not have to take-- it says it takes her until Thursday to get back to normal. If you want to break out of this pattern, something's going to have to change. So, you can try a lot of things. You can try cutting out the alcohol and still eating the same and see what happens. You might start losing weight, you might not change, you might even gain more weight. You could try still eating three meals and eating all time but keeping it whole30 foods that would be like a happy medium even with alcohol. Maybe that's like a baby step to try. Like still doing it but not just eating whatever you want but eating whole30 but eating whenever you want whole30 with alcohol. You could try maybe still doing one meal a day eating whatever foods you want but adding alcohol. There are a lot of things you could try, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion automatically that it's the alcohol. I think it's all of it together.

Gin Stephens: And for me, I would like to reiterate, I would try the alcohol first. It just from what I've learned about my own body. Also, alcohol makes me choose different foods. That's a point that-- you may find that just cutting out the alcohol for a month suddenly, you're not craving eating and drinking all those things. That would be what I would start with. But let us know what you do and what works.

Melanie Avalon: One last thought is taking in a lot of alcohol, obviously not good for the liver, you don't want to be overdrinking and binge-drinking and heavy drinking, that's not going to be healthy. That said, the long-term effects on body weight or fat storage or things like that are not necessarily-- because we don't know what she's eating, but she's eating whatever she wants and it is things like processed food, especially foods high and seed oils, high in inflammatory fats, and in a calorie excess and in a gaining weight situation, those fats are changing the composition of your fat cells if you're gaining weight. Actually, even not if you're gaining weight, if it's high in these inflammatory fats, it's a long-term change. A long-term thing you're going to have to deal with, compared to the short-term change of alcohol. There's just a lot more potential for “long-term damage,” I think. Unless you're binge-drinking crazy and you get psoriasis or something like that.

Gin Stephens: Well, for me, just realizing two glasses of wine one night kept me from getting into deep ketosis for days, versus I can eat more carbs and plenty of foods-- and my diet’s not as clean as yours by any means. I eat crackers out of a box. I'm sure I'm getting-- you would probably die at the number of seed oils I have. And the alcohol has made a huge difference for me to the point that I'm a little shocked by it. I'm surprised at what a big difference it's made. I'm disappointed that my body doesn't do well with alcohol because I really enjoy it, but I'm feeling so good without it.

Melanie Avalon: No, I 100% get it. I guess I just like to provide the other picture. Like I said, we know everybody's unique. So definitely, Laura, try it and report back and let us know what works. I just think if you can have alcohol in your life, especially looking at epidemiological studies, so many long live populations who are lean, healthy, have moderate alcohol intake, if it can be a part of your life and it's something you enjoy, I want it to be part of your life. And I guess I'm coming from the opposite perspective where I was drinking a lot of wine for a long time and it was not an issue at all for my weight, and then I cut it out-- I actually did gain weight when I cut it out, probably wasn't related. But now, I'm finally starting to drink wine again, and I'm so happy.

Gin Stephens: And you're a fast alcohol metabolizer, right?

Melanie Avalon: I think so. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, see, I really think that that is a key that people-- I don't think we know yet. I haven't been able to find anything. Maybe somebody knows. I just don't know. But to me, I really think that could be a huge factor. If someone is a slow alcohol metabolizer that maybe like the thing that's holding them back. I just know what a difference it's made for me all along, and the period of time when I lost weight the quickest was the period of time I wasn't drinking at all. But recently, the only thing I made, the only change I've made is alcohol. I haven't changed what I'm eating. And my Shapa is showing me slow weight loss.

Melanie Avalon: That's a huge key. The only thing you changed was alcohol. She's changing so much. She's changing the types of foods, the amount, the timing, and alcohol, that's four.

Gin Stephens: No, but I mean, but she's maintaining in this range she's with this protocol. What she's doing right now, is she can't lose any weight, she's doing this protocol. And her protocol is she eats really, really clean and then she stops for the weekend. But my point of what I was saying was, I haven't changed what I'm eating. I only took out alcohol before when I was losing two pounds a week when I was trying to get to goal, I changed what I was eating and the alcohol. So, but now, my point was to-- I'm trying to contrast those two times. Right now, I only took out the alcohol. I didn't change what I'm eating.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I get what you're saying. Yeah, so I was talking about something else. You were saying that that was the only factor, so it was the factor.

Gin Stephens: For me, back in 2015. I took out alcohol and changed what I was eating. So, I was eating really high-quality foods and not drinking, and I lost weight really quickly. Right now, I haven't changed what I've been eating from what I've been eating for the past year, I've been eating-- I did experiment with the lower fat a long time back this year just to see, but I feel better with more fat, but the only thing I've changed in the past two months is the alcohol.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because I guess because she changed four factors. She added alcohol, she's changing what she eats, how much she eats, and when she eats.

Gin Stephens: But what I'm saying is she needs to pick something to experiment with and pick one variable right now.

Melanie Avalon: So, change one variable, it's like what speaks to you. And you can try different things, so I was going to say if you want to try to start just change a few variables, You have to like look at your week-- So, what is important to you on the weekends that you want to keep in to make the weekend feel like a weekend. Is it the alcohol? Is it eating whatever type of food you want? Is it when you eat? Or is it how much you eat? Or is it a combination of those? And I would really think about it and try to find a happy medium where you can keep in what's most important to you and what makes you happiest on the weekends. But not doing all four of those because all four of those is not working.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, definitely, I want Laura to experiment and then write back and tell us what she tried and what worked.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Let us know.

Gin Stephens: Because you'll figure it out. There's a tweak that works.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and we have to mention though, if you do drink alcohol, Dry Farm Wines. Please, please.

Gin Stephens: I'm a big believer too. I'm going to continue to drink alcohol here and there just not as part of my daily life. I'm not going to be a drink around the house kind of person, I don't think. But it's going to be Dry Farm because now Chad is also hooked on it.

Melanie Avalon: I just got my sister hooked on it. I'm so excited.

Gin Stephens: Chad's a believer.

Melanie Avalon: I want to get my dad hooked on it because that's where I get my love of wine from and he's not like alcoholic or anything but he drinks wine every night. And I'm just like, “Oh, I need to get him drinking Dry Farm Wines.” Basically, their wines are low sugar, low alcohol. They're tested to be free of toxins, free of mold. They grow all throughout Europe. There's no California wines or US wines because none of the US wines meet their standards. That's how pervasive pesticides are in the US, which is really upsetting, even on organic farms. So, they go throughout Europe and they test individually all the wineries to find wines meeting their standards, even if the wineries don't necessarily have an organic stamp. So, you can get a bottle for a penny at dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast.

Gin Stephens: You have to get used to it because it's so different than wine you're used to but once you get used to it, you'll drink a standard wine and you're like, “Oh.” At first, when you try Dry Farm Wines, you're going to say, “This is different,” but it has a cleaner mouthfeel, it's so different. And one thing I want to point out, it's lower alcohol than standard ones, but it's still enough alcohol to bother me if I drink too much of it, or to drink it a lot.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, all of their wine is 12.5% or less. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. You can ask your own questions to us just directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode, which we talked about a lot of things, so definitely check those out, the scale, the grounding shoes, Dry Farm Wines, studies, all the things. That will be at ifpodcast.com/182. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @IFPodcast. You can follow me, I'm at @MelanieAvalon. And you can follow Gin, she's @GinStephens. I think that's all she wrote.

Gin Stephens: Yep, that's all.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No. I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on this show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 181 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 181 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am fabulous. I am just immersed in all sorts of amazing data and learning about myself.

Melanie Avalon: Would you like to elaborate?

Gin Stephens: I would. Melanie knows, because she knows what I'm doing. But for readers of Fast. Feast. Repeat., and even readers of Feast Without Fear, I've been talking about personalized nutrition ever since I first saw that famous TED Talk that I talked about, with Dr. Eran Segal. I saw it first in 2017 and it literally changed my life, to understand that we all have personalized responses to foods. Some of it's based on our genetic background, but a lot of it is our gut microbiome, and really just our hormonal health in general.

In Fast. Feast. Repeat., I talked about the work that Tim Spector is doing. He's my favorite gut microbiome researcher from the UK. And he had a study called the PREDICT Study, and then the PREDICT 2 Study, which some of my friends did a year ago. And I am now participating in the third round of this, PREDICT 3. It's with an app called Zoe, and he's one of the collaborators with it. But as part of the study, for the past seven days, I've been wearing a continuous blood glucose monitor that they sent me, and I have to send it back which is so sad because, man, is it eye-opening to see how my body responds to different foods, with my blood glucose so I can see what it's doing all during the day, all during the night, how it goes up, how it goes down, how it responds to foods. I'm so happy to report that, I'm not surprised, the foods that I thought that worked well for me, guess what?

Melanie Avalon: They work well?

Gin Stephens: They do.

Melanie Avalon: So, are you eating some of their stuff and your stuff?

Gin Stephens: Well, I had to do that for two days. There were two days where I had to start the day eating these muffins that they sent me. Oh, my Lord. Okay, yuck. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, we wanted to record the podcast earlier, but Gin was like, “I can't record a podcast after eating the muffin.”

Gin Stephens: I was right. I was predicting that. It was before I had even eaten the muffins, but I had a feeling because I had to eat them in the morning because, see, you couldn't have anything before the muffins except water. I'd wake up in the morning and drink black coffee. So, I had to eat the muffins and then wait four hours and then eat the-- they were actually different muffins and then wait two hours and then I could have real food. The first day of that, I opened at 8:00 AM, and I never eat at 8:00 AM, even on vacation. If I'm going to have breakfast, we usually end up doing more of a brunch. So, I can't think of the last time I've had food at 8:00 AM. But I had to eat, I think, it was three muffins that had been frozen and then I microwaved them. And the first round of muffins, I think they're testing fat clearance, like how quickly your body clears out fat after you eat a high-fat meal. These were high-fat muffins. They are high fat because you could tell by reading the ingredients list. You would not have probably eaten these muffins.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to say, “This is not a Melanie study.”

Gin Stephens: No, you probably wouldn't have eaten the muffins, but the first ingredient was like safflower oil or something.

Melanie Avalon: Oh gosh!

Gin Stephens: I know. I know. I know. But I ate the muffins and then I was so crabby for those three hours because they weren't satisfying at all. If I could have put some butter on there or some strawberry jam, but no. They tasted like a mix between a cornbread muffin and pound cake, but with less flavor. So, then the second set of muffins, they were like gluten-free-ish, I don't know, low-fat muffins. But my blood glucose responded great to both sets of muffins. I had to do this blood test, where I had to squeeze out all this blood onto this card and send it off to be-- Anyway, they're going to test the, I think, my fat clearance because you had to do it a certain number of hours after that and it gives you a lot of information. Oh, I also had to send in a poop sample.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's right up my alley.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, so that was interesting. It was a little more hardcore than the one I did for the American Gut Project. I won't go into details, but it was interesting, let's just say. And then I took them all to the post office and mail them in. That was also fun. This guy behind me is like, “What's on your arm?” It was my continuous blood glucose monitor. And I thought that was a very bold question to ask a stranger at the post office, but I explained it. But I should have said, “This is poop in this box,” but I didn't. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Is putting it on hard?

Gin Stephens: It was actually so very easy. I was scared, but I did it. You stick it to the back of your arm and this little thing, and you just go click and then it just pops in. It was easier than the fingerstick.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I have two brands of CGM I'm vetting right now, and I haven't done either one yet.

Gin Stephens: Well, this information is just so important, I think, because it showed me-- like I had one meal that I've eaten so far that did not work very well for me. It was the only one and it was a flatbread topped with a lemon ricotta, and then sauteed brussels sprouts, and then like Parmesan cheese and then hot honey. That one shot my blood glucose up higher than anything has so far, probably the honey. But when I've eaten potatoes, when I've eaten rice, even toast with egg on top, I have a very slow, steady rise and then a slow steady back down. Yeah, I think that flatbread didn't have a lot of fat with it. I mean it had some fat, but I probably normally have more fat with my carbs. So, it just kind of spiked me right up.

Melanie Avalon: Fascinating.

Gin Stephens: So fascinating. But, yeah, I feel like this is what's so sad to me. These monitors are by prescription only, and the only way to get a prescription from your doctor for most people for insurance to pay for it, it's for you to already be really sick. But for somebody who's healthy, this can help you know what is leading you to a healthier profile for yourself. So, it seems to me like they would want to put these in the hands of people who are healthy as a preventative measure. I guess that's not the place we are right now yet. But I think this is one of the most exciting preventative tools ever, understanding how your body responds to things.

For example, one day, I had my normal snack and then I had some coconut water. My blood glucose went up pretty high after the coconut water based on what I had prior to that. Whereas another day when I had a snack, waited a couple hours, then had the coconut water, I had a very mild increase.

Melanie Avalon: Well, you know the problem with using this as preventative?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know the problem of that. No, what is that?

Melanie Avalon: Because we would eradicate a lot of the need for the medical system if we switch to being preventative.

Gin Stephens: I don't think that they're all just back there with their nefarious plan to keep us hooked on the medical system. I don't know. I don't. I don't think they are. I think that they want to want us to be healthy. They want to help us. I mean, maybe big pharma, okay. But the doctors want us to be better. They want us to be healthy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I meant more big pharma. Yeah, like implementation of policy into everything.

Gin Stephens: Well, okay, policy is a whole different ball of wax. But it's really sad that I'm going to have to send it back. It's not a toy. It's not a plaything. It's not, “Oh, this is fun.” It's like, wow, this is powerful data that is teaching me so many important things.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I love it. I'm excited to try mine. I was going to do it earlier, but then, as Gin knows, I got surgery, fixed my deviated septum to breathe better. Listeners, Gin was right.

Gin Stephens: Gin was right. Let's just say that, “Gin was right.”

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “I'll be fine.” And Gin was like, “It's going to be really awful.”

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: I was right.

Melanie Avalon: And it was really awful.

Gin Stephens: I knew it would be.

Melanie Avalon: It was so terrible. I basically just stayed on the couch and watched Disney movies, all of the live-action versions of all the Disney movies, like Aladdin and Mulan. Spoiler alert, the new live-action Mulan does not have singing.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: It's very upsetting.

Gin Stephens: I would probably like it better.

Melanie Avalon: Probably, you would.

Gin Stephens: That sounds cool. I'm going to watch it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it was really, really tragic. But, no, I would go to get the mail and I was done for the day. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Any anything like that.

Melanie Avalon: I just felt like I was dying. I had to reevaluate. I was like, “Okay, what tools do I have to support my health, getting back on recovering," because I can't do my sauna, can't do exercise. I think that's the worst, is knowing you can't lift heavy things. That's what I thrive on, is lifting, and I can't get my heart rate up. So, I couldn't do my cold showers, can't do my sauna, couldn't breathe, so can't do my breathing. I was like, “I have nothing.” It stopped taking NMN and NR, the precursors to NAD. I started taking that again because we talked about Elysium, I think,before on the show.

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, it could have been a coincidence. But when I started taking that I started feeling a lot better.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's good.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know if it just happened to be a timeline, coincidence that that's how it lined up. I'm taking it for life, not stopping this time. For listeners. I'll put links to all of that in the show notes. But that's that.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm glad that you're on the mend. So, you're feeling like yourself again?

Melanie Avalon: Getting there. Excited to breathe because breathing is everything.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it is. I had my adenoids taken out in, gosh, 1991. I was 21, I guess, when I had the surgery done, and I remember it being terrible.

Melanie Avalon: Because that's on your nose too? Was that on your nose?

Gin Stephens: It's between your nose and your tonsils.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. I was just doing a lot of contemplations about anesthesia. It's so weird.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I hate anesthesia. Hate it.

Melanie Avalon: And then, I started having memories that I'm not sure if they're real memories. I thought I blacked out. Or I thought stopped remembering things at a certain point. But then, I started remembering things from the OR room before the surgery that I hadn't remembered for, and I was like, “Wait, so if I think about this enough, I like remember everything.”

Gin Stephens: Oh, I don't want to. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It's very, very scary. In any case.

Gin Stephens: Well, hooray for breathing. That's good.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off, we have a follow-up email from Bronwyn who wrote into the show before. And the subject is “Thank You.” And Bronwyn says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, thank you so much for answering my question in Episode 174. Every time I listen and hear you say hello to me, Gin. I grin from ear to ear and say hello, back out loud.”

Gin Stephens: Hello.

Melanie Avalon: “I'm glad you both like my name. It's Scottish.” She says her mother spent two years in the UK in the late 60s before she got married. She says, “I loved your air conditioner thermostat analogy, Gin.” And for listeners, that was I think about--

Gin Stephens: Her weight setpoint.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, right.

Gin Stephens: It was about how your body tries to keep you at a certain weight setpoint. That's what I think.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, she says, “However, I already know my air conditioner/body is broken and I need to find the answer to healing before it can adjust to match the thermostat. What I really wanted to know is the mechanism of how it manages to not lose weight. Melanie, you covered it. And I guess for me, the likely answer is I'm making glucose from protein after I run out of fuel from each previous meal.” Just really quickly to that, I'm not necessarily saying that, I guess, I don't know. I don't know if like the reason you're losing weight is because you're making glucose from protein. But basically, what we talked about is, you can be fasted or seemingly you think you'd be burning fat but actually the liver is upregulating gluconeogenesis and producing blood sugar from protein. A lot of things can go on in your body.

She says, “Thank you so much for taking so much time to discuss the possible ways forward. It took a weight off me that you thought more or longer fasting was not the answer. I don't enjoy ADF at the moment. May interest you, Melanie, to know that I came to IF from seven years of a diet called Trim Healthy Mama.” Have you heard of that, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I have heard of it just because I've been in these groups for so many years. But here's what's so cool. I didn't have to do that one because I was already doing intermittent fasting when it got really popular. So, if it had come out earlier, I'm sure I would have done it.

Melanie Avalon: Probably would have done it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but because it came out-- I'd never heard of it until after I did intermittent fasting, so I never had to try it.

Melanie Avalon: It's nice. Although the concept she talks about is something I personally apply because she says, “Which is based on separating fuels, fat, and carbs into different meals. I listened several times to your interview with Cyrus and Robby, and it's so very interesting. I recognize that the ideal would be to pick a fuel and stick with it. I have not eaten PUFAs since I started it.”

Gin Stephens: Can I hop in? Oh, go ahead. I just wanted to say, I think this is where it's so important to know your body. I haven't tested a meal that's completely carbs with no fat yet because even the one yesterday that cause my blood glucose to go up so much higher, had less fat, but it still had some fat. But I do plan to try a meal that's it's even more carbs than that just to see what that does too. But for me, when I have-- the meals that I've been testing that I've done so well with have plenty of carbs and plenty of fat. So, I think for me having the fat and carbs together, I've always said that that works really well for me, but it's showing up also in the way my blood glucose is responding.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think it's definitely really individual. Gin, you just have epic, epic metabolism, blood sugar control processing of fuels.

Gin Stephens: If I went in there right now after we finished recording, I have these pretzels with, I don't know, this cinnamon, sugar, yogurt coating on there that someone sent me. If I went in and just ate those on an empty stomach, I'm pretty sure that's mostly carbs. It's very sugary. I'm pretty sure my blood glucose would spike up really fast and crash back down. I'm probably not going to do that, but I don't like the way it feels. But I just naturally gravitate towards-- I wouldn't go and just eat a bunch of crackers by themselves. I would put cheese with them because I know that I feel better when I do that. I don't feel well if I just had a cookie, for example. I just know that the fat really helps my body process the carbs. People know. If you know that when you eat something you feel terrible after you eat it, there's something going on in your body that is telling you that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 100%.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, I just had to pop that in there. You were going to say something about that too?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, we're all individual. For me, I really benefit from separating the fats versus the carbs. And I'm just going to say she said she hasn't eaten PUFAs, which are polyunsaturated fats since she started it. I interviewed Cate Shanahan, Gin. She wrote Deep Nutrition, which was a book that both Gin and I read and really, really appreciated. But she wrote a new book called Fatburn Fix that I talked about, I think, at length on the show, but it's really all about polyunsaturated fats. So, I think when this comes out, that episode might be out. So, I will put a link to it in the show notes. But she was really great.

Her focus in college was fatty acid metabolism. I was like, “Oh my goodness. That's what I'm obsessed with.” So, yep. Anyways, back to Bronwyn. She says, “After a lifetime of dieting, I'm not sure whether I'm ready to go back to that. Gin, thank you for the freedom of IF. But Melanie, I recognize that you're the type of person who enjoys control over what you eat. And that's great.”

Gin Stephens: I have to log everything that I'm eating in the Zoe app for this study, and it is making me die, like having to lock it. And then, I put some Triscuits on my plate, and I was going to eat them and I was like, “I have to count them,” and then it was like there were nine and then I had to put it the serving size but the box the serving size was six and so I had to put in either one serving or two, and I couldn't-- So I was like, I just ate three more. But I was like, “This is crazy.” I hate, hate, hate to log. Even though I'm eating what I want, having to write it down is just making me get crazy. Anyway, but it's data, I'm learning.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I want to address that because I don't like logging or all of that. My aspect of control-- because I found that interesting that she said that because I do wonder how I come across, so hearing that is interesting. I just like having control over my particular-- I think I'm just more selective in what I eat because of how my body--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I was going to use the word choosy. Choosy with ingredients. You would not have eaten those muffins. You would have been like, “I'm sorry, I can't participate in this study.” Where I like ate them and was crabby about it all day but did it.

Melanie Avalon: That was one thing I loved. I did interview Wim Hof as well. And he has a whole thing about control, and he's talking about how, at least when it comes to our mind, having control over our mind is actually the ultimate freedom because when you control your mind, that is freedom. And I thought that was a nice paradigm shift. Back to our email.

She says, “At the same time that episode aired, I also got the results of blood tests with the doctor I finally found who do proper thyroid testing. My thyroid function is healthy. Go figure.” But she said it did show that she was low on progesterone, she started taking that. She's planning on giving herself a month or so on progesterone before making any changes. But after that, she says, “If I am still stalled, I would like to try to concentrate more on separating fuels for a while. As I said, I simply can't face picking one and sticking with it forever. But, Melanie, a brief question for you. Would it be enough to separate them by full days, i.e., one day fat-based, the next carb based or do I have to man up and pick one to stick with until I get to the goal or break the stall, but not forever.”

The concept of not combining fuels because of having efficient metabolism of that meal because what we're referring to is basically there's something called the Randle cycle, which is carbs and fat, and they compete-- basically, if you have both at the same time, it's not super-efficient, especially for people who struggle to have metabolic flexibility and handle different types of macronutrients. And then, there's also the potential issues of carbs and fat competing or messing up insulin receptors. I'm just hypothesizing or theorizing, but I think as long as the last meal has cleared, like Gin was talking about that meal with a muffin, or that muffin, maybe potentially be testing how long it takes like fat clearance from the blood, I think that would probably be an indicator of how long in between you need to go. I think probably switching back and forth between days is totally fine. It's more-- and some people do this but if this is really what you're trying to look at, and you want to switch between like low-carb, high-fat and high-fat, low-carb, I would separate them by days. I wouldn't do the morning one and then the evening another. I would probably separate by days.

She wants to know like, “Should you go longer until she breaks the plateau?” Honestly, you just have to try different things. So, maybe you could try a week where you do switch back and forth on different days or maybe you feel intuitive about it like, “Oh, today I feel like I want it to be a high-carb, low-fat day compared to a low-carb, high-fat day." Did I say that right? You guys know what I'm saying. Or you could try sticking one out. It's really going to have just be self-experimentation.

Last thing she says is, “Something interesting happened since her previous email, I had thousands of dollars' worth of horse gear stolen from my tack shed and it was very stressful. I immediately went from ADF to barely managing 16:8. I've gradually worked back to 20:4 now, but I was 16:8 or 17:7 for a few weeks. And I was sure that I would gain weight, but I only gained up to the top of the 3-kilogram range that I've been in since December. Then, I dropped back to the middle of that range where I'm sitting now. So, my statement that I gained without ADF appears to be wrong, or maybe some healing has happened.” And then, she says, “Thanks, again, for your comprehensive answer to my question.”

Yeah. So, two little things we could talk about in there, is when people have stressful events, and then feeling the need to lengthen their eating window. Nothing wrong with that. Do you thoughts about that?

Gin Stephens: It's true, we do hear that. Right now, a lot of the group members who live in the western United States are having a very stressful time with the fires and having to evacuate. And so, we've had a number of posts of people who are just overwhelmed from the stress of it. And some of them are like, “I've leaned into my fasting practice, and that has helped me deal with the stress.” Whereas some others are saying, “I've had to just relax my fasting time because that's helping me.” Neither is wrong. It's all about just what your body and how you can deal with that, that stress of the moment.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 100%. I think a lot of people probably experience that as well, where the more you've been doing intermittent fasting, you may find that when it changes or you lengthen the window, and then you come back to it, the more you've work the muscle, it can be easier to jump back in and see results potentially faster.

Gin Stephens: Your body doesn't have to start from day one all over again. Maybe if you stopped for years, but not if it's just a matter of days, weeks, even months.

Melanie Avalon: One thing I think we talked about with Dr. Cate on that episode was she was talking about fasting because we've talked so much about how the body can hormonally adapt, and it can do all at once to shut down fat burning, or try to maintain a certain body weight. But fasting is the one approach where, even if it does try to make counter-regulatory mechanisms to stop weight loss, it's like the one thing where it really does force your body to tap into things. As long as I feel like eating throughout the day, your body can just wait for the next thing.

Gin Stephens: That's true. Slow it down a little. That's how I felt that day that I was eating those muffins. I felt like somebody who was on a typical calorie-controlled, low-calorie day where you have your little crazy low-calorie breakfast, and then you have to wait and eat your crazy low-calorie lunch muffins, oh, my Lord, I was like, “I'm really hungry.” Thanks to intermittent fasting, there's never a time where I'm starving and not allowed to eat, ever, ever. I just go through the fast every day. If I felt super starving on one day, I would just go ahead and eat, but I don't. But if I did, I would, but I couldn't. It was so crazy. It really hearkened back to those diet days where I was following a rule. And I could not eat because I was following the directions of the study.

Melanie Avalon: That sounds really miserable.

Gin Stephens: It was eye opening. I followed my husband around and talked to him a lot that day. I think he ran out the door back to work. But I was like, “I'm so hangry. This is just like being on a diet.” It reminds me but it helped me remember, thank goodness, I never have to be hungry and not eat again, unless I do another study or something. But it's the freedom of that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's amazing.

Gin Stephens: The day that I ate the most was the day I was the hungriest all day long. So, think about that people

Melanie Avalon: I know. That’s the way it is. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: All right. Well, great to hear from you Bronwyn. I'm glad you're tweaking and figuring things out. And sorry about that horrible theft of the horse gear.

Melanie Avalon: I know, that's really terrible, speaking from experience when getting things stolen. Really, really terrible.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of the sponsors for today's show, and that's Audible. Audible is the leading provider of spoken-word entertainment and audiobooks. Ranging from bestsellers to celebrity memoirs, news, business, and self-development. Every month, members get one credit to pick any title, two audible originals from a monthly selection, access to daily news digests and guided meditation programs.

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And now back to the show.

This one is from Eric and the subject is “ADF and Vitamin D.” Eric says, “I have seen evidence that suggests vitamin D is critical in the fight against COVID-19. With vitamin D being fat soluble, it is recommended to be taken with meals. I am doing ADF and would like to know what is the best way to supplement vitamin D on my down day. I am currently taking vitamin D with breakfast and dinner on my up days, but don't know if this is the best way. What would you recommend? Thanks for all you do. IF is changing my life. Love you, ladies. Thanks, Eric.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Eric. So, thanks for your questions. Yes, the vitamin D connection, especially to COVID susceptibility and just our immune system is huge, like huge. Having vitamin D levels up seems to be so important, and one of the sad or unfortunate things is that with the quarantine situation, a lot of us are staying even more indoors and getting less outside sun exposure as well. So, vitamin D supplementation could definitely help. It is fat soluble. I take a brand by Thorne, I think it's an MCT oil carrier. So, I would recommend to having it with your breakfast and dinner on your up days. And I would recommend still taking it on your down days, that small amount, I don't see a problem with, breaking fast or whatever. You also definitely want to take the D3 form, which is in the Thorne version that I use. So, I'll put a link to that. Gin, do you have thoughts?

Gin Stephens: I just read that yesterday. Tim Spector that I was talking about earlier doing the gut work, the PREDICT studies. He has a new book, Spoon-Fed is the name of his new book, and I read his other book, The Diet Myth years ago. Oh my gosh, funny story, Melanie, by the way, he and I must have read the exact same studies because-- and thank goodness, my book came out first because his calories chapter in Spoon-Fed was like the same exact examples I gave. He talked about the nuts. He talked about the meat. He talked about the cheese sandwich. He didn't go into as much detail about the cheese sandwich as I did. But he talked about the NOVA food classification scale. It was fabulous. But his book came out in August. So, there's no way I could have copied him. I was like, “This looks like I plagiarized him,” but I did not. If you're reading the same studies, I guess it would get you the same information.

Anyway, he has a chapter on supplements and he's a doctor in addition to being a researcher, and he has a great chapter on supplements in that book. And he said he used to always recommend that people take vitamin D supplements as a physician, but now, after everything he's researched, he believes the best way to get it is just get out in the sun, and I know that some parts of the year, you can't. He lives in the UK, so he just gets 15 minutes of sun on his skin and gets his vitamin D like that. So, anyway, I just read that yesterday, which is why I'm popping that in there. Just something to consider instead of taking it as a supplement-- I'm not going to tell you not to take it as a supplement, but maybe on your down day, just go outside.

Melanie Avalon: There's also an app when I had Robb Wolf on that he's obsessed with, and it's called dminder, I think. I’ll put a link to it. But apparently, so you put in your skin type and your location.

Gin Stephens: And where you live. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And it tells you exactly when to go outside for how long to get the optimal amount of vitamin D absorption.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that I could live with. That is a fabulous-- Okay, I got to find that out, dminder.

Melanie Avalon: dminder. So, we'll put a link in the show notes.

Gin Stephens: I just thought it was interesting to see Tim Spector’s analysis because he said that the more he's learned about supplements, the fewer supplements he would ever take or recommend.

Melanie Avalon: That's the way I feel, honestly. I've done a lot of research on vitamin D supplementation, and it's complicated because it's hard to know. A lot of the studies find that people supplementing have potentially worse outcomes, but I think it's because the people supplementing, they were low, they're not the robust people with the high vitamin D to start with. So, it's really complicated. It's hard to know what is the causative factor there.

Gin Stephens: What did he say? Let me see if I can say what the way he said it. “The disease causes the deficiency, rather than the deficiency causing the disease.” I think that was something he said like that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm thinking about this a lot. I love that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, but then you measure it and you're like, “Oh, look, you're deficient. And you have this disease, the deficiency caused the disease,” when really the disease caused the deficiency.

Melanie Avalon: It's really interesting. I'm prepping right now for, I think it's the Caltons, they wrote Rebuild Your Bones. And their theory is that pretty much all disease is from micronutrient deficiency. It's just funny because they have the exact opposite theory. So, they would say that it's backwards. They would say-- may probably do say almost that exact sentence that the deficiency causes the disease, not the disease caused the deficiency-- Oh.

Gin Stephens: I know. And look, all these people are respected in their field, respected researchers. And he talks a lot in Spoon-Fed about the problem with studies and misinterpreting studies and how short they are and how little we really know. I think that's just important. And that's what he does. He's a researcher, so finding good studies and really making something that will apply.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know, after hearing some stories about studies, I'm just-- it's hard to know, it's hard to know.

Gin Stephens: It really is, it really is. And just one thing that I love from him so much is the whole-- we're all different. That is just so key. And the more people that can start to understand this, the better. There is no one best way to eat. And the science is showing that over and over and over and more and more, that you have to take things with a grain of salt, in even studies.

Melanie Avalon: Where did that phrase come from? Every time I hear that, I wonder where that came from.

Gin Stephens: I don't know, maybe like the ancient Romans or something? Because they used salt for currency. I don't know I just made that up. Maybe someone will write in and tell us.

Melanie Avalon: Or maybe it's because salt makes things more palatable.

Gin Stephens: Oh, maybe, it does make food delicious.

Melanie Avalon: Who knows?

Gin Stephens: That's probably it.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: You're probably right. All right. Well, Eric, I don't know if we helped you or not, but I'm going to get that dminder. That's a great idea.

Melanie Avalon: Definitely.

Gin Stephens: Because I really would rather get it from the sun, just from what I've read.

Melanie Avalon: I would too. I was going to even say I should probably be controversial and say--

Gin Stephens: Tanning bed.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I knew you were going to say that. [laughs] I was waiting for it.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I'm just going to say it. I do think getting a membership at a tanning place-- And I'm being very specific with this doing just the UVB beds, which are going to be the cheaper beds anyway, and literally going in for, I'm saying like a minute.

Gin Stephens: Your goal is not to be tanned. Your goal is to get the rays, the UVB.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because I really think vitamin D is huge.

Gin Stephens: Now, when we talked about this early on, maybe in 2017 and you said that, we got some pretty irate emails from people that were upset, but I guess our listeners now know that if you are suggesting something, you have researched it fully and are not worried about the dangers.

Melanie Avalon: Definitely, whenever you do a tanning bed, of course, there is the concern or the risk of skin cancer but I think in the grand scheme of things, in the overall picture, especially during the winter months when we're not getting sun exposure outside, weighing the cost-benefit for a lot of people, I think it's probably more beneficial to do very low-dose UVB bed, only going for like a minute, doing that. I don't know how often, but I found it was cheaper-- because some of the places have unlimited monthly, but I found was actually cheaper at least where I went, which I think was Palm Beach Tan, you could buy like credits, so like packages, and that was what turned out to be cheapest.

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And now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to the next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's go on to the next one.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, the next question comes from Mandy. The subject is "Food Choices." And Mandy says, “I love your show, and I find it so helpful. I can't stop listening. And I just learned something new and intriguing each time I listen. So, thank you both for all the time and research you do in helping all of us who are on this journey to a better healthier me.” She says, “I've been IFing since January 1st, 2020.” Just thinking about January 1st, 2020, who knew that 2020 was going to be what it is.

Gin Stephens: Nobody.

Melanie Avalon: I know. She says, “I have no doubt this is the health plan, I won't say diet, that I feel is the way of life for me and what I know will be best for me long term. I started out doing 16:8 and eventually to 18:6. For about a two-week period, I was doing 20:4 and I did one 24-hour fast. I had a couple setbacks around Easter and again after my husband and I returned from vacation in July. So now, I typically do 18 to 19 hours fasting with a five- to seven-hour eating window. I do 16:8 on the weekends. I have not lost much weight in nine months. I'm fluctuating between five pounds. I admit, I haven't been doing pictures routinely or measuring but when I did last, I had lost inches. I lose the five pounds and then I gain it back usually because of a date night splurge with my husband each week."

She says, “My question is this. I feel like I'm obsessing about what to eat all the time. I'm constantly thinking about what should I open my window with? What should I make for dinner? I would love to open my window with the same type of thing daily to keep it simple for me when I am at work. I'm a nurse practitioner and I don't really have time to think about food when I'm at work, but I find myself doing it anyway. I also work all kinds of shifts, which makes it a little difficult to be consistent. When it's time to open my window, I'm ready to eat anything and everything. I also have the influences of people wanting to eat out when I am at work. Then when I need to eat dinner with my family, it's like I'm too full to eat the big meal we desire during this time, resulting in most likely me overeating in my window. I would love to eat cleaner. So, I am trying to do that. I also recently submitted a food sensitivity test and I'm waiting for results on that which I know will help determine what causes me inflammation.

How do I stop obsessing about what I should be eating each day? What are the best things to open my window with, so I feel satisfied but I'm not ruining my meal later? Examples of what I've been doing in the past, avocado toast on a low-carb tortilla with bagel seasoning and cheese, and Diet Energy V8, which has 2 grams of carbs, spicy bean, veggie burger and butternut squash spirals or rice cauliflower, crackers/cheese and veggies. I snack on nuts, cheese, or have an apple, but often cave to the junk snacks everywhere in my office that is not supplied by me, which are constantly in my face. Can you give any advice as to where to start? I know everyone is different and you can't tell what my body wants.”

We just talked about that. She says, “But I just want to stop thinking about foods so much and stressing about what to eat. Thanks in advance. And sorry for the long email question.” I love this question. So, Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Well, it sounds like to me that the approach that you're doing right now is a great maintenance protocol for your body because that's what's happening. You're not losing weight, you're fluctuating between those five pounds up and down, and you're having pretty flexible weekends with 16:8. I can tell you that if I did 16:8 every weekend when I was trying to lose weight, I would not have lost weight because I needed shorter eating windows. And I know the not-fun part is that when your goal is weight loss, you do need to be more mindful even on the weekends. I talked about that in Delay, Don't Deny, Saturday is not a special occasion because it happens every week because that was always my biggest stumbling block until I finally was like, “Okay, I've got to crack down on this to lose the weight.” So, I needed a tighter window to lose weight. And it sounds like to me, Mandy, that might be true for you as well.

You mention that your shifts are different all the time and that your struggle seems to be at work. So, I don't really know if this is feasible or not, because I don't know how long your work shifts are. But when I was a teacher, I was at school for eight hours, most days eight hours, some days longer. If we had a faculty meeting, I could be there for 10 hours, or if we had a special event after school. I did not eat until I got home from work. I just didn't because you're exactly right, Mandy. I am pretty sure probably the food that you have around you is the same kind of food that I had around me as a teacher in the teachers’ workroom, not good stuff, just junk food all around. People would bring in treats, we would have sweet treat day, where people would bring in doughnuts. It was just all over the place. And it was also very unusual for us to get to go out to lunch, that was only on like a teacher workday. So that was not really something I had as a challenge. But it was so much easier. I didn't take food with me, I didn't eat what was there unless it was a very special occasion and the food had to be worth it. But I just didn't eat at work.

And I would go to work, I worked my eight hours, my 10 hours if it was a faculty meeting day, and then I came home and then I opened my window and I ate. And it was just so easy. Then on the weekend, I would probably have a five-hour window or so, open in the earlier afternoon, and then have a good dinner later. If I were trying to lose weight, two full meals on a Saturday and the Sunday would not have done it for me. I would have been weight stable doing that. When you get to maintenance, you can be more flexible, but you've got to tap into those fat stores and have some reason to burn them.

So, if you haven't read Fast. Feast. Repeat., I would read that. And I would focus on the Feast section. Also, there's an Intermittent Fasting Toolbox chapter that could really help you and then Tweak It Till It's Easy. And you just really want to find what you need to do to get that weight to start coming off. And so, what you're doing now isn't really it. I think that would be where I would start. You're very focused on what to eat, what to eat, what to eat. I used to be like that to thinking that if I could just find the magical foods that would be the key. And I've realized, “Yes, food is important,” but I never lost weight on the magical foods. It was always on more of the when. Real food, yes.

Now, I will say choosing real food over the junky food, that's huge. But overstressing on whether it's rice cauliflower or nuts, I would do less stressing about that. Eliminating the junk snacks, yes, eating real food, real food that is delicious.

Melanie Avalon: I don't even know how much she stressed about trying to lose weight as much as her just obsession about thinking about food all the time and what to eat.

Gin Stephens: Well she did say she hasn't lost much weight in nine months and she's fluctuating between five pounds and I think that is part of her struggle.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well she said she lost inches but that she gains back and forth this five pounds because of date nights. She feels like she's obsessing about what to eat all the time and it's like, “What should I open my window with? What should they make for dinner?” So, I'm glad you said that, Gin, about how when you were a teacher, you just didn't eat, while you were working. Because that's what I was going to suggest, Mandy, is it actually feels to me like-- this kind of goes back to what Bronwyn was saying about the control aspects. But often when we're in a nebulous gray zone, and it depends on your personality type. But for a lot of people, if they are in a nebulous gray zone about what they are or aren't eating, it just leads to a lot of stressing about what to eat, like decision fatigue, because you don't have like a clear boundary about anything that you can just stick to.

So, I would suggest trying to actually come up with some more rules that you can stick to surrounding everything and know that you can change the rules. So, you can try different things, but maybe coming up with more black and white rules about everything, and then not breaking them. I'm not saying you're bingeing, and I wish this book wasn't called this, but in the book Never Binge Again, by Glenn Livingston, he talks a lot about this, and about the importance of just coming up with like a plan and sticking to it, and then not listening to that voice in the head that's trying to do different things or convince you to-- she talks about caving to junk snacks in the office everywhere. For that, you just make a rule that you're not going to eat the junk snacks. So, it's not like-- and I know that sounds like really simple, but if you want to really try to make this work and not have this issue of feeling like you are constantly being controlled by these questions of what to eat, and should I eat this, or should I not eat this? So, coming up with some rules like you're not getting snacks at work, you're just not, you're not, it's not an option.

And then, I do like the idea of tightening up the window. So, you're talking about opening with these different snacks-- you're trying to find snacks you can open with, but then also still eat your hearty meal later. I will say for me, we're all different, and she even says we're all different, but eating things like nuts, or avocado or stuff like that, if I were to eat that as a snack, I would be way less hungry later. So, if you do want to still have some sort of snack, but still be hungry later, I would suggest thinking more about that. And maybe doing things like not cheese, not nuts, not stuff like that, doing more just maybe vegetables or fruits or something like that.

Gin Stephens: And can I pop in? Some people actually find that, to the point that you just made, they can't open with a snack and then have a meal later. They do better to just open with their meal. You open with a meal and then have a snack later. Even though you want to eat dinner with your family and you're too full to eat the big meal then, maybe consider the meal with your family as the snack time and that you're only going to just have a little bit-- you're still eating together, you're just having a smaller portion. Just because it's a big meal, you don't have to eat the big meal. You can have some of the big meal.

Melanie Avalon: So, if she does that, are you saying she still has another meal?

Gin Stephens: I'm saying, open with your meal. Open with a meal. Whatever time you open, instead of trying to open with a snack and then have a big meal later, open with a big meal and then have something more snack-ish later, but you can sit down with your family and whatever they're eating as that dinner can be your snack. Does that make sense? Let's say you've made, I don't know, chili. You're having chili and baked potatoes with the family. I just made that up. That doesn't sound like what she would eat but I would. Chili and backed potatoes, back in the day, when I was cooking for my family. Just have a little bit of potato and a small serving of chili because you've already eaten your large meal earlier. Some people need to open with their large meal and then have a snack later if they're still hungry. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon: It does. Alternatively, could she try to cut the snack and just make the meal with the family, the big meal?

Gin Stephens: Totally. She totally could. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I was a little bit unclear about the avocado and all that stuff. But it sounds like she's talking about that being snacks and--

Gin Stephens: And like what she's taken to work. It sounds like she's taken that to work to have it at work. I don't know. It's hard to tell.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I think she's opening her window at work.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, she does say, “I snack on nuts, cheese, or have an apple, often cave to junk snacks.”

Gin Stephens: If I tried to have a little tiny snack at work, I would probably then be starving and caving and eating the junk snacks too. That's why it was so much easier just to not eat at work. Like with the muffins the other day. I had eaten those muffins and now I need to eat some food, but I couldn't. It's hard to stop with a little bit.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it really is. I know it sounds like really nebulous to stop obsessing, just making rules and stop obsessing, but it can be pretty freeing for a lot of people. And like I said, you can change it around. So, you can try and come up with like one plan you want to follow and then try it and then don't think about it, and just do the plan. And then, if it doesn't work, come up with a new plan.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, exactly. Tweak it till it's easy.

Melanie Avalon: And then when you find yourself thinking about it-- because the good thing about having the rules is, if your brain’s like, “Huh, should I do something else?” No, because you already made the plan and you're seeing if it works. So, then you learn to not engage with this constant back and forth in your head of what you should or should not be doing. You just do it, evaluate if it worked or didn't work, and then keep doing it or adjust the plan.

Gin Stephens: That's how my mind works completely. I guess we're all different with that. But the month that I had completely alcohol free recently, I didn't wrestle every night with “Should I have a glass of wine with dinner or not?” I was like, “Nope, I'm not having any wine.” It was super easy. I didn't have to think about it. Whereas in all the months of 2020, every night, I was like, “Should I have wine, or should I not have wine? I don't know. I want to drink less. Oh.” And it was always a struggle. But then once I flipped that switch, I'm not having wine, I'm not having alcohol, it was like, “Bloop, okay, easy decision made.” And I didn't even have to worry about it. Or think about it or want it, I wasn't craving it.

Melanie Avalon: It's so much easier. And I think people are hesitant to do it because it sounds like, “Oh, you're being controlling or not being intuitive.” But having that approach to life, it can be really freeing. And like I said, you can always change it, to clarify about that. You're not going to change it that day, because that would be going back to questioning it. It's like so you would make the plan and you stick to it for however long the days it is and then reevaluate. Melanie, on the other hand, is back to alcohol and loving it.

Gin Stephens: I did have alcohol last night because I wanted to test it with my blood glucose meter.

Melanie Avalon: How did it affect things?

Gin Stephens: It didn't seem to affect it a lot at the time but all morning today, I had higher blood glucose than I've been having. I had really high blood glucose in the fasted state versus I don't usually. And I also slept so terribly last night. I woke up at like 2:00 AM and I was awake all night after that because I was really doing some science, so I wanted to make sure I had enough. In the middle of the night, I was like, “Yeah, this is not working for me.”

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny because we're complete opposites. I really intuitively, when I'm drinking wine, I feel my blood sugar control, my glycemic control is so much better. So interesting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it really is. And you're probably right.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. For me.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. For you. Yeah, exactly. But for me, no.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions to the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can find all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can get the show notes for today's episode. Those are at ifpodcast.com/episode181. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. I'm @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. Speaking of Gin, I just realized on Facebook, I can be like doing my Instagram from Facebook. Did you know this? And it's so much easier than on Instagram.

Gin Stephens: What?

Melanie Avalon: Because you know how Facebook changed?

Gin Stephens: Like it just recently changed?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Everything's everywhere. I don't know where anything is. I'm so confused. I feel like I'm lost. I feel like I'm like a lost child in the mall. I'm like, “Wait.”

Gin Stephens: I rarely use Facebook on the desktop, unless something's broken on the phone. I'm usually on the phone. So, the only time I do it on the computer is if something's broken on the phone.

Melanie Avalon: Well, it's really confusing. I get so lost. I think I'm in one group and then--

Gin Stephens: That's what I'm hearing from people. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think I'm in my group and then I'm not, and then I think I'm somewhere else, and then I'm not. I'm like, “How do I get back to--?” And I feel like I'm missing things. It's just very confusing.

Gin Stephens: Yes, tools are missing. I'm in a power admin group that's by invitation only. You have to have a certain amount of engagement in your groups, whatever, if you're an admin, and everybody there is talking about it.

Melanie Avalon: It's very upsetting.

Gin Stephens: Help! Apparently, comments are just going wherever. Someone will make a comment, and it won't be at the end anymore. It pops in the middle. The sequence is all wrong. Also, somebody who's in one of my groups said she posted it in the group, and it went to her personal page instead. And then, I was like, “Well, maybe you did it by accident.” And then, she had a screen recording of her doing it and it was like actually--

Melanie Avalon: Happening.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: And the other thing is, I feel before this, I was getting way more notifications about stuff and now I'm not. I know stuff is happening, but I'm clearly not hearing about it anymore.

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: Or it'll be this person commented and then I go on, I'm like, “What?” I don't know, it's very strange. But in any case, right before this, I'm also randomly finding random things because I'm ending up in random parts of it, I don't understand. But there was this one thing and it was like Instagram and it was like, you have this many notifications. I was like, “Wait, what?” So, I clicked on it and then my Instagram pulled up as a feed, but in Facebook, and it showed me all of the things I've missed in Instagram for the past three years.

Gin Stephens: Oh, wow. Like messages?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it literally went back-- and comments. I could answer though for my Instagram on Facebook and I was like, “What is happening?” So that's the one good thing they need to keep, and they need to pull it out and make it its own little button somewhere that because I have no idea I'm going to find it again. I have no idea how to get back to where.

Gin Stephens: You don't know where you were. You just stumbled across it.

Melanie Avalon: I really did.

Gin Stephens: Wandering in the wilderness. Oh, my God.

Melanie Avalon: I was in some message version of one of my things, because I think it was connected to one of my business pages. I've literally no idea where it is.

Gin Stephens: [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: If I find it again.

Gin Stephens: I did everything the opposite of the way you're supposed to. I don't have any business pages. I had two. I had one for Gin Stephens, author, and one for Delay, Don't Deny, the page, instead of the group. I just deleted them.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't use it.

Gin Stephens: You're supposed to. You're supposed to market through them and do all this. I'm like, “No.”

Melanie Avalon: I don't use it. But I get messages to it. That's how I ended up there by accident because I don't know how to find it, like normally the messages. But then randomly I'll get notifications. It's like, "You have messages.”

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's why I stopped because I was getting some messages there. And also, that's where people would send me really mean messages.

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Gin Stephens: I know, it's really sad. In Facebook groups, people send you mean messages. But now, I don't read messages from people I don't know. You know how in the Messenger app, it has an Other box, Message Requests. I don't read those for my own sanity. So, if you've tried to connect with me people, and you're sending me to my Facebook Messenger, I don't read them. Because it's always questions, and it'll start with a simple question like, “Can I have lemon?” And I answer to it. And then, a month later, it's like, “I've only lost one pound, what do I do now?” And then, a month later, it's like, “What should I eat?” And so then, it becomes it's just too much. Yeah. And so, I apologize, everybody, if you've ever tried to reach me with Messenger, I don't even look at that, because I don't have time. I would be doing that 27 hours a day if I did, because I don't have time to personally coach everybody through Messenger. And that's what the groups are for. If you have a question, ask it in the group.

Melanie Avalon: Same. I always redirect.

Gin Stephens: Don't ask me personally, come to the group. I wish there was-- I could do an autoreply. That would be the best. If I could send-- not on Messenger though, but on the pages you can. I actually finally set that up before I deleted it completely. But I wish in Messenger, you could have an autoreply for people, and you could set it to say what you want. And mine would say, “Thank you for reaching out. Unfortunately, due to the volume of messages that I get, I'm unable to see them or reply to them. Please ask your question in the group where we will all be glad to help you,” because I really want to help people, but I just can't do a one-on-one Messenger thing. And it's hard because I would love to do it, and I used to. I used to answer, I would go to that box, I would answer everybody, and it just got to be too much.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I have a preset answer that I copy and paste that redirects them to the group.

Gin Stephens: I don't even see them because they're in that hidden box. I don't even go there. The message requests, I don't look at them.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, Facebook,

Gin Stephens: I know.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, on that note, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, I look forward to it.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 180 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of our sponsors, Prep Dish. Prep Dish is changing the way thousands of families do mealtime. Here's how it works. Prep Dish thoughtfully crafts a week's worth of gluten-free and paleo meals that feature seasonal ingredients to make the most of your budget, save you time, and surprise your taste buds. You may be thinking, but we aren't gluten-free or paleo! Well, when I have used Prep Dish, my family didn't even notice that the meals were gluten-free because they are based on real food ingredients and the meals were delicious. There's also a keto plan if that's what you're looking for.

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Melanie Avalon: And one more announcement before we jump back in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Okay, here’s the thing. You might be fasting clean, drinking water, drinking your black coffee, but did you know you might still be putting compounds directly into your body, which are messing with your hormones and making you less likely to burn fat? The average man uses around six skincare products per day. The average female uses around 12. And conventional skincare makeup in the US is full of things called endocrine disruptors. These are compounds which mess with our hormones, and these include obesogens, which can actually make our bodies store fat. It's honestly shocking.

Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for their toxic nature, including carcinogens as well and the US has banned less than 10. Thankfully, there's an easy solution. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to create safe skincare that protects and nourishes your skin and is free of endocrine disruptors. Gin and I adore them. They are game-changers. They have skincare lines to meet all of your different needs. They've got amazing shampoo and conditioner, sunscreen, an overnight peel, vitamin C serums, and so much more. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order.

If you'd like to learn more about Beautycounter and get free discounts and special thanks from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. And lastly, if you'd like to take a quiz to find your perfect products, I created those at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz.

All right, now enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 180 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am so excited.

Melanie Avalon: Why? I actually don't know why. Wait, why? Normally, I feel like I know.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's going to be old news by the time this podcast episode comes out, but as of the date that we're recording it, tomorrow on supermarket checkout shelves everywhere, Woman's World magazine is hitting the stands and I've got my first glimpse at the finished article. Yesterday, they sent me a PDF of it and also the cover. Now, of course, you know one caveat they have to throw their crazy claims on there, which you know, I didn't say it, claims on the cover. Lose 19 pounds in 14 days. Now, would I ever say that in a million years?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: And I did not say that. I told no one that nor would I ever but I guess make people pick up the magazine, but the article doesn't. I do not say that in the article, but the article is actually very well written, and I'm proud of it. It features Fast. Feast. Repeat. The cover photo is of one of my moderators, Paige Davidson, who lost 108 pounds at the age of 57. It's fabulous. It opens with a quote from Krista Varady and her latest research on time-restricted eating. It talks about Fast. Feast. Repeat. right after that. There's a great quote where they talk about me saying that a pound a week is a good goal. Not to expect a lot of quick weight loss. So, at least they have that in there. I'm really happy to see. They have a section from Jason Fung. They have a section from Dr. Mark Mattson from Johns Hopkins, he's the one who wrote the New England Journal of Medicine article that came out in December of 2019. And he actually says, time-restricted eating, quote from him, is one of the best things you can do for yourself, which is huge. And so, it ends with picture of the cover of Fast. Feast. Repeat., which is thrilling.

Melanie Avalon: That is really exciting.

Gin Stephens: It's really exciting.

Melanie Avalon: What's it called, again, the actual magazine?

Gin Stephens: Woman’s World. You see it at every supermarket checkout, it's right there. Always got some kind of crazy weight loss claim on the cover.

Melanie Avalon: And what was the claim, 19 pounds and how long?

Gin Stephens: 19 pounds in 14 days. I wish I could have convinced them to say you're going to lose weight really slowly, but it's okay. That's how I would have written it, but I don't know, maybe people would have been so shocked, by lose weight slowly and keep it off, they would have picked it up.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just curious because that's such a specific number. Where did they come up with that?

Gin Stephens: Well, Paige talked about how she lost a lot of weight right at first. And so, I think they got that from her story.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, did she lose 19 pounds in 14 days?

Gin Stephens: Well, she said they got that part actually a little wrong. It was something close to that, but not exactly. I'm looking over that part. I wish that they had said, “You're going to lose about a pound a week after the adjustment phase, and that's great: But that doesn't sound as exciting, I guess. But it's what I would have written.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, right, because in your book, the weight loss is after the 30 days, but they took out that context in the article.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I mean, that's not in there at all the 28-Day FAST Start, they say several things from me. And the quotes are pretty solid. There's not one thing that I said that I read and go, “Ooh, that's not really what--” No, there's nothing like that. So, that's good. And the article, like I said, is very solid and the writer did an excellent job. Other than the spin on the cover, which was going to make people have unrealistic expectations, like all of those covers always do. I would like to have it not say that, but I'm focusing on the positives which is, I am quoted in an article with Varady, Fung, and Mattson, and Gin Stephens. Anyway, it is really exciting, and it features Fast. Feast. Repeat.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to pick up a copy tomorrow.

Gin Stephens: Well, do. It's going to be on the stands September 3rd through 9th. September 14th is that's the date it says on the cover, but they come out before the date. By the time September 14th rolls around, it shouldn't be available anymore new, and it'll be out. But, anyway, hopefully, everyone got a chance to see it. I hope everyone knows, if you know me, anyone that knows me would know I would never say that you will lose 14 pounds in 19 days-- No, 19 pounds in 14 days. I definitely wouldn't say that. I wouldn't even say expect to lose 19 pounds in 19 weeks. You might not. If you have a ton of water weight, you’ve got some kind of issue with a massive amount of water retention. That's the only way. I mean no one on earth is losing 19 pounds of fat in 14 days. You're just not. I think it's probably impossible physically to do that.

Melanie Avalon: Now, I'm wanting to like run numbers in my head. But, yeah.

Gin Stephens: You would have to weigh a whole lot. But for it to be fat, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because just a pound of fat is how many calories?

Gin Stephens: 3500 is the standard number, although I've read an analysis that no one can justify where that number came from.

Melanie Avalon: Story of life.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's just common knowledge. But Zoe Harcombe, I think is the name of the person that wrote the analysis that I read years ago. Have you heard of her?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: She's in the low carb community, I believe. It was years ago, I read her analysis. She's from the UK and she's maybe a dietitian, I can't remember, that's what I think. And it was an analysis of why do we think that it's 3500 calories per pound and she said she went everywhere trying to find the origin of that and couldn't figure out where that came from.

Melanie Avalon: That's really funny.

Gin Stephens: Maybe, there is a fabulous origin, but she just wasn't able to find it. That's possible. Anyway, no, do not expect to lose that much weight, but it's just very exciting to see intermittent fasting presented in such a great way. Other than that one little claim, the rest of the article is very solid.

Melanie Avalon: That is so exciting. I'm excited to go pick it up tomorrow.

Gin Stephens: Me too. I'm going to definitely be at the grocery store.

Melanie Avalon: Please sign a copy. I was going to say it for me. Are you going to go sign copies at the grocery store?

Gin Stephens: No. I am not going to do that.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if they would like kick you out.

Gin Stephens: I think if someone buying Fast. Feast. Repeat. is my target audience, but at the grocery store, someone buying Woman's World, no. But hopefully it'll bring people to Fast. Feast. Repeat. and then when they read it, they will say, “Okay, I'm not expected to lose weight the first 28 days.” I think being realistic is important. Next step, solve the way they promote these things at the checkout counter. I was unable to solve that problem, but maybe we can get them to portray things differently, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I doubt it.

Gin Stephens: That'd be a great goal.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's like a goal for life.

Gin Stephens: I know. I was excited. What's up with you, anything new?

Melanie Avalon: I mentioned this. I've started to do dry needling, which you have not done, correct?

Gin Stephens: Never.

Melanie Avalon: Listeners, I would love to hear people's experiences. It's to target muscle tension and pain and things like that. So, I've been doing it in my jaw.

Gin Stephens: Are you doing it yourself, or someone doing it?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no! Gosh.

Gin Stephens: I didn't think so. But when you said that, I got suddenly, maybe Melanie-- I mean, I can just imagine you lying in your freezer of water, sticking needles in--

Melanie Avalon: To that point, so I've had some intramuscular glutathione sitting in my fridge for like a month but I've been too scared to do it because I'm too scared to stick something into my muscle, but I got the dry needling done, I was like, “I can do this now.”

Gin Stephens: I actually can do that. I can, I had to do allergy shots. I gave myself allergy shots years ago.

Melanie Avalon: Was it subcutaneous though, or muscle?

Gin Stephens: I can do either.

Melanie Avalon: Subcutaneous is totally fine.

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah, and that's super easy.

Melanie Avalon: But muscle. I'm like, “Hmm.”

Gin Stephens: I had to do that with the HCG diet.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I did it with that back in the day, but glutathione, nobody tells you it burns. So that was an epic fail. When I was getting the dry needling though-- Okay, are you ready for my Monday? This is my Monday. Getting dry needling, getting it in your jaws is one of the most painful things I think I've ever experienced. Yes, it is. Two, he started doing my neck, and right before he did it, I was like, “What if he like pierces a vein?” And then, he did. I literally thought I was going to faint. And then, I got out of it. And I realized my Apple ID was compromised from the Philippines, and everything just crashed and burned. That's my life.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's always awful when something like that happens. Like if you go to Twitter, there's a Gin Stephens. Someone stole my Twitter account, Gin Stephens, years ago when I wasn't really using it when I was just a schoolteacher, someone stole--

Melanie Avalon: Your actual account?

Gin Stephens: Gin Stephens, yeah. Someone stole it. And so, now I have to be Gin underscore Stephens because I no longer have the email address that was associated with the one I set it up back in 2012. And like I promise, this is me. It's not even a picture of me. If you go to the old Gin Stephens, there's like a picture of me and then someone else. That's not me, and they stole it.

Melanie Avalon: This was people, I guess, got my Apple ID, and so they were like buying all this stuff. And they said all of my devices were infected with like trojans, and I was like, “What?” But they fixed it. They were on top of it.

Gin Stephens: Apple did?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. It's really impressive. Like you call and they fix it like while you're on the phone. It was so fast. I was like, “Wow,” I did have to pay for security now going forward.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's really exciting because Twitter could not help me, but it was because I didn't have that email address anymore. And that's frustrating since they don't go with you when you change providers from one internet provider to the other. Others can, but that one did not because I changed internet providers.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, modern world. So, that's that. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off, this is from a Melanie, I didn't realize that. The subject is "Body Needing IF?!" And Melanie says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. I am a 32-year-old twin mama, who has been doing IF for the past 20 months. I started very gradually after having heard of your podcast by complete coincidence on another show."

Gin Stephens: I wonder what other show?

Melanie Avalon: Melanie, can you let us know? Please email us. I'm really curious. Okay. She said, “I never thought I would be able in a million years to fast as I have been a serial snacker all my life. I've been successfully able to get to a 20:4 and also regular 24-hour fasting. I usually stick to this fasting schedule during the week and stick to a very healthy diet with a 12:12 hour window on weekends. My two-year-old toddlers refuse to eat if I'm not eating with them on the weekend. I do not have this issue during the week as they go to daycare very early and eat breakfast with their educator.

I have not been losing weight with IF since I began, but I was a little underweight to begin with. My goal was mostly to gain energy, hello two-year-old twins here! And also manage my Crohn's symptoms, both of which have greatly improved with IF. With all this being said, my question is, can the body get to the point of needing IF to feel good? As time passes, I realized I always feel so sluggish and bloated on weekends even though I eat healthy. Is it possible that eventually the body gets so used to the fasting state that it needs it to be feel good and function well?

The only thing I find positive during weekends is having the fuel for very long and intensive workouts and I would love to know if there's any research on how the body adapts long term to daily fasting. Any thoughts on needing fasting to feel well? Thank you so much for all you do. You make my daily commute so much more fun."

Gin Stephens: Awesome. Yeah, I don't think there's any research on really-- I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, Melanie. Have you ever done or read any research on fasting that focuses on the way people feel as a primary thing? I've seen studies where they talked about that people were able to stick to it or if they were hungry, but never focusing all the energy that we feel and how great we feel. I've never seen an actual research study that even talked about that. Have you?

Melanie Avalon: I've seen a lot on mood, if you would qualify that as mood. I don't know if there's one on vitality, though.

Gin Stephens: Right. That's what I mean. That's what I'm talking about. I have seen what you're talking about with mood, not specifically of what she's saying. But really, I think, Melanie, it's just you realize, “Hey, this pattern feels really good to my body.” And then, you notice when you're not doing it. It's like if you don't get a good night's sleep, and then you feel sluggish the next day, you then realize, “Gosh, I feel better when I sleep well” if this is the same kind of a thing. Or if there's foods that don't work well for you, and you eat them, and then you feel worse. You're like, “Hey, that food doesn't work well, for me.” Basically, you're realizing that a 12-hour eating window is not how your body feels its best. You're spinning it to say that your body needs fasting to feel good, but really, you feel good when you're fasting, not that you need fasting to feel good. It's just that this is the state where you do feel good. I don't know. Am I explaining that all crazy?

Melanie Avalon: My main primary thought was that just what Gin said, that you feel so good with fasting that it's a mirror for how you feel when you're not in that state. So, eating. It is always an inflammatory process to some extent, it just is. For some people, it's way more inflammatory. For others, it's barely at all. Some people feel fine after eating or great after eating and they don't feel much different after eating compared to fasting even because they just aren't reacting to foods, everything just works well. But a lot of people, if they do have an inflammatory response to food-- and it could be a lot of things, it could be digestion issues. She says that she feels sluggish and bloated, it could be food reactions, it could be how your microbiome reacts. Basically, when you eat it can be very telling as to how the food is actually affecting your body. So, fasting is not making your body unhealthy or making your body require fasting to be more healthy or be more effective. But it by itself, it might help support your digestion and help you solve health issues. I'm not saying it's necessarily a health issue, but fasting by itself is not going to change necessarily the response you have to a meal based on your current, like, what the meal is, how you eat it, what your microbiome is, because then you're in the eating state. So, it's kind of like the fasting criteria goes out the window. Does that make sense?

I relate though. I do in a way feel I need to do fasting to feel good, but it's mostly because I feel like the way Melanie feels. I'll get sluggish and bloated after eating meals now. I think an exception would be if I ate just fruit or something, like something that was really easily digested, really quick fuel and in a way-- and this is going to confuse people, so I almost don't want to say it, but in a way almost mimicking the fasted state and that is just pure energy. My body is definitely used to functioning in the fasted state now.

Gin Stephens: If I overeat, and my window is too long, I feel sluggish and bloated. On a normal day, when I open my window and I eat, I don't feel bloated. It's evening, so I feel that's a normal time to feel tired, the evening. But I don't really know that I would say I feel sluggish. If I go on vacation and open my window really, really early, yeah, sluggish. And after several days of it, yes, bloated. It's just that overly full feeling that I don't like to feel.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And actually, to that point, just because you're talking about feeling. She doesn't say she has IBS or anything like that, so I don't want to prescribe that onto her.

Gin Stephens: Well, she said she has Crohn’s.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait. Oh, she does. Oh, yeah, my bad. Now, I feel like I should have been more strong what I was saying before because actually, everything I said really applies. Yes, if the foods you're eating are exacerbating your GI symptoms for whatever reason, 100% it's normal that you're feeling sluggish or bloated after them and it totally makes sense why you feel great fasting. No, you don't need the fasting to feel great. But if your GI state and tract and everything is in a state where it is reacting intensely to food, it's just natural that you probably won't feel so well after it. So, that would be really mitigated by really, really looking at your food choices.

Gin Stephens: I have something else I'd like to throw in there as a teacher and as a mother. Melanie says that her two-year-old toddlers refuse to eat if she's not eating with them. I think it's time to teach them that mama doesn't have to eat for you to eat. You can sit with them and not eat. And they'll eat. I wonder if their teacher eats with them. She might just be there with them because teachers don't always eat with the kids either. So, there's two of them. If they're both eating and you're sitting there with your clean fast beverage, they're probably not going to notice that you're not eating. They probably want you with them. It's not so much the act of you putting food into your mouth. They're two, they're going to be getting older. If you don't want to eat with them for 12 hours, say, “Mama is not going to eat right now. Mama will sit here with you. I'm going to have this coffee.” Just tell them.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really glad you brought that up.

Gin Stephens: They’ll eat. I promise you, a toddler will eat when they're hungry. And they're not going to refuse to eat if they're hungry.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really glad you brought that up.

Gin Stephens: I read a book, French Kids Eat Anything or Eat Everything or something. I didn’t read the whole book. So that was a lie, sorry. I didn’t read the book. I read the summary of the book or I read the free-- You know how Amazon will send you the free--

Melanie Avalon: The first, yeah-- such a tease that kills me.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I didn’t buy the whole book but I read the free sample, that’s the word I am looking for. I read the reviews about it. Basically, the premise of that book is that kids all around the world do not play games with food the way American children do. They just eat their food. Whether they're in Asia eating scorpions, whatever. They eat whatever there is. They're not picky eaters but then we're raising all these picky eaters who are like telling us-- I remember when Cal was a baby, I was like, "He only eats things that are beige." And I let him do that. I let Cal only eat foods that were beige. And so, I catered to that. I would like to go back in time and not cater to that. But I was panicked. I was like, “Well, he only wants to eat these chicken nuggets and vanilla pudding and French fries.” Okay, look, that sounds terrible. Crackers, he ate those things if I gave them. Carrots, he spit them out. I should have just kept presenting the carrots.

Melanie Avalon: You know what is actually really interesting to that point? I just finished reading Cate Shanahan's Fatburn Fix. And she has a section on teaching herself to like certain foods that you don't like. And they've done studies on kids and taste buds, I guess it takes 10 exposures of our taste buds to something new before there's a definitive answer as to whether our taste buds like it or not.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Melanie Avalon: The way you do it is you have like a really small amount of the food you're trying to get to like at a time when you're a little bit hungry and you do it 10 times over a few weeks. And then, if by 10 times you don't like it, then you can just give up. I like most foods so I was thinking about this like-- I think it's so interesting when you eat mostly real foods and stop eating processed foods and especially with fasting--

Gin Stephens: The hyper-palatable foods. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, most “food” I like. The only ones I don't like are things that I think actually have allergies to like olives or--

Gin Stephens: Yum, I love olives. But like me and fish. I don't like fish.

Melanie Avalon: I can't understand this.

Gin Stephens: I wish I did. But the thing is, is that like I said, would like to go back in time and be a different mom and not cater to that. Because now it sounds just so silly, when I think back, I'm like, “My child will only eat chicken nuggets.” Well, okay, he'll eat something else if I give him something else and he's hungry. He will eat it. They will eat it. Anyway, do what I say, not what I did, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yep, what you learned.

Gin Stephens: It's true.

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Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Megan. And the subject is "Smoking and Intermittent Fasting." Megan says, “Hey, girls. Super fan here. Love your show. You opened a whole new world for me when I found your podcast. My question has to do with smoking cigarettes and intermittent fasting. I recently quit smoking. Yay!” And that was Megan saying, Yay, but I think Melanie and I would also say, yay!

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yay!

Gin Stephens: And she says, “And wonder what information you can provide to me about whether or not intermittent fasting may help prevent weight gain after quitting smoking. I am beyond thrilled about finally taking my health more seriously and quitting, but am worried about the potential weight gain. Thanks so much. You guys are the best.”

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Megan, for your question. And again, applause for you for quitting smoking. So, I did a lot of searching. Unsurprisingly, there are not any studies specifically on intermittent fasting and mitigating weight gain after smoking. However, there are a lot of studies on weight gain after smoking. So, yes, many people do gain weight after smoking. There's a lot of potential reasons for that.

One is the change in your metabolism. Nicotine can actually boost your metabolism or cause you to burn more. There's actually a lot of really fascinating studies on nicotine and why it makes us not hungry and things that does. One thing is they think it maybe activates like beige fat, which is brown fat, which is a type of body fat that is more metabolically active. Another study found that it stimulates compounds similar to-- I'm trying to remember exactly what it said. I think it was basically the sympathetic nervous system. So, adrenaline and things like that. It taps into similar pathways and encourages the body to burn fat. Nicotine itself actually supports weight loss. When you cut that out, you're making hormonal changes in your body, you're making chemical changes. So, that's not something that's super easy to mitigate with the exception of if you were using a nicotine patch, or something like that.

Also, with smoking, it can alter your food preferences. They find people who quit smoking often start craving more sweet foods, especially if you're eating that in processed forms, that makes a lot of sense. And then, a lot of people turn to food as a substitute for the psychological effects of tobacco. So, instead of smoking that's like a habit, they turned to eating.

Gin Stephens: It's like that oral fixation. You've been filling that need with the cigarette going into your mouth, and now you're putting something else into your mouth.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, the oral fixation and then also, a lot of people obviously are turning to smoking for anxiety relief, and so they might switch that out for food instead, which has a tendency that in the moment, it can make people feel better, regardless of the long-term implications. So, they've actually done a lot of studies to see how putting people who stopped smoking on diets that are intended to either make them lose weight or not gain weight and see how they respond. What they found is that in the quitting process, because normally it's like lining up with while you're quitting, if the diets are too restrictive, it usually backfires because quitting smoking by itself is very taxing on willpower. So, when you couple that with a restrictive diet, it doesn't usually go so well.

That said, when people are trying to quit smoking, and they're put on personalized dietary protocols that are not too restrictive and are meant to help them lose weight, and then especially if it's coupled with addressing their fear of gaining weight, that psychological aspect seems to be huge. Basically, the key, it seems, to not gaining weight after smoking, is to not have a fear that you're going to gain weight and to be following a dietary protocol that would encourage weight loss. So, basically, that says to me that intermittent fasting is perfect for this situation because we know all the benefits of intermittent fasting, we know how it supports the body, how it does support naturally a fat-burning state. We know that it's not based on this over-restriction, it's not a chronic crash diet. It's something that is very sustainable and supportive of the body.

So, I think, hands down, intermittent fasting could be one of the best ways to potentially mitigate fat gain after quitting smoking. And if you haven't been doing intermittent fasting before and you start doing it while quitting smoking, you could completely reframe instead of having fear of gaining weight, there's the potential of trying this new dietary lifestyle which could completely revolutionize your fat-burning potential. So, yeah, you could reframe into possibly losing weight even though you're quitting smoking.

Gin Stephens: Well, I have very short thoughts and they're a little smart-alecky. The question was, whether or not intermittent fasting may help prevent weight gain after quitting smoking. The answer is yes. May help, it may help. Sorry, is that too short?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: I think what she said is great. And yeah, I think that it's probably-- just like you said, Melanie, at the end there, it's probably one of your best bets to help prevent the weight gain after quitting smoking. I've never smoked, so I don't know how hard it is to quit. But I've watched people quit smoking, so I do know it's hard.

Melanie Avalon: She just said, she quit. I wonder how she quit. I see no problem with using nicotine patches or something like that, too.

Gin Stephens: I agree.

Melanie Avalon: To quit, especially since low-dose nicotine potentially even has health benefits. Not to be controversial.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I know, I've seen that too.

Melanie Avalon: Not that I haven't experimented with nicotine patches.

Gin Stephens: Have you?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: I think the most fascinating research on them is their potential therapeutic use for people with Parkinson's, because of how it regulates the dopamine system. It's very interesting, but I don't chew nicotine gum because that would break the fast.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Yeah, we get that question a lot though, about nicotine gum and nicotine lozenges. We recommend the patch definitely for people who are not wanting to break the fast. But yay, Megan, I'm so glad. Don't worry about the-- even if you do gain a little weight after quitting smoking, know that you're really helping your body. And so, it'll work itself out after that transition.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I love it. All right, so the next question comes from Kate. The subject is "Increased Energy After Eating." This is kind of like the flip side of--

Gin Stephens: I know. I love this one. When I read it, I was like, “I could answer that one.”

Melanie Avalon: Kate says, “Hi ladies. I just found your podcast in the last week and I've been doing IF for three months. I started at the beginning of your podcast episodes, so I have many left to listen to and I apologize if you've already answered this. But I've heard you answer listener questions about feeling sluggish after eating.” Like we just did. She said, “I am the exact opposite. I feel super energized after eating and sometimes have trouble sleeping after dinner. Just to let you know where I am, I was doing a six-hour eating window for the first two months and lost 10 pounds in that time, but wasn't fasting clean using Nutpods creamer in my coffee. I learned from you ladies to cut that out. Thank you.

The third month I saw no further progress on the scale despite a clean fast and shifted to fasted workouts and one meal a day, but I'm still in a weight loss plateau. I do have more weight to lose, but I plan to stick with it. Does it mean I'm not in ketosis if I feel energetic after eating? Am I doing something wrong? I've ordered both Gin's books and can't wait to read them. Thank you so much. Kate.”

Gin Stephens: This is a great question. I would actually say, Kate, if you have extra energy that you feel after eating, I think that means you actually are in ketosis because sometimes ketosis keeps me from being able to sleep well. If I don't eat enough, I'm too energetic to relax. Just like I've talked about how sugar gives me restless legs, not eating enough in my eating window makes me toss and turn and feel restless when I'm trying to sleep and it gives me the energy of the ketosis. Yeah, that's what I think.

My prediction would be, especially if you're doing fasted workouts and one meal a day-- and I'm also curious, if you're defining one meal a day as a very short eating window, it's very likely that you're deeply in ketosis, and that's the energy that you're feeling. So, not doing something wrong. You are probably really doing some right things if ketosis is what you want. But you may want to see if you need your eating window to be a little longer. Noticed that you're doing fasted workout. So, I would focus on how your body composition might be changing. Take some photos wearing tight clothes, like your goal clothes and see if the fit of your clothes is changing over time, even if the scale is not changing. You may be at a weight loss plateau, but not at a fat loss plateau. Those are two different things. You could be losing fat, building muscle. It looks like a plateau on the scale, but it's not a plateau in your body. So, that's what I would suspect is happening. I would suspect lots of fat burning, it sounds like ketosis, the extra energy, and body composition.

Melanie Avalon: I love what you said. I was wondering when she says like, “Does it mean I'm not in ketosis if I feel energetic after eating?”, do you think she's asking about like she's not in ketosis, specifically after eating or she's not in ketosis?”

Gin Stephens: I think she's asking since she feels good after eating, does that mean she's never getting into ketosis? I would say no. I actually have great energy, and really, I often don't have a real sluggish feeling. I like to go to bed bit early. Have you ever done that chronotype quiz? I can't remember the sleep doctor that has that.

Melanie Avalon: Is it where you're an owl or a wolf?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think I'm a wolf, or there's a bear and a wolf.

Gin Stephens: I'm the lion. The lion is the one who wakes up really early and then goes to bed early. I just did it yesterday because one of the moderators was talking about it, and I had done it before, but I was like, “Let me do it again.” I'm a lion. It's basically your whole--

Melanie Avalon: Circadian rhythm?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, your personal circadian rhythm of when you feel most energetic. For me, I like to go to bed early. But I look back my whole life to college and I was always the friend who would sneak away and go to bed early. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: People say everybody's that type, and I'm just like, “I don't think so.” Because I have never like that ever, and you have.

Gin Stephens: You're not. The people who say everyone is like that are the people who are like that and think everyone should be like them. I really believe that a lot of people do that. They say, “This is how I am. This is how everyone really is.” But you're just lying to yourself. No, that's not true.

Melanie Avalon: I think the fact that even on days I was severely sleep deprived and was like, “Tonight is the night I am going to bed at 6:00 PM--”

Gin Stephens: You just physically can't.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I would be tired during the day, but then come evening, be like, “Hey! It's time to party.”

Gin Stephens: Well, it's just like me trying to sleep in. I cannot sleep in.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I went to the beach with friends. We were up really, really late and I'm going to sleep in the next day. No, I wake up 6:00 AM, my eyes pop open whether I went to bed at 3:00 AM or 9:00 PM. I wake up first thing in the morning. So, that's just the way it is. The whole point of that was that eating doesn't necessarily make me sluggish. Now, if I ate too much, I feel sluggish, that's the difference. If I eat so much, if I eat too much, it makes me feel sluggish. But if I don't, I continue to feel super energetic, in fact, too energetic because of the ketosis.

Melanie Avalon: I find it interesting that there's this idea or she had this idea, and I'm sure others do as well, that with intermittent fasting, that it's a sign of success if you are feeling sluggish after eating. So, that's not the message that we want to put out there.

Gin Stephens: It's not unusual to feel sluggish after eating, but it's not wrong to either feel sluggish or not feel sluggish.

Melanie Avalon: On the flip side, it's okay to feel tired after eating. It's what you just said. A lot of people think that you either need to feel really energetic after eating and that's correct, or, well, I guess, the opposite.

Gin Stephens: I've learned this with these large Facebook groups more than anything else. People will look to what happens to one person and then if that doesn't happen for them, they immediately think something's wrong. Like, “Well, I don't get the metallic taste in my mouth. I must be broken.” Well, no, not everyone gets that. Even in ketosis, not everyone gets that. So, there's not any one right way it has to be and then if you don't have that, then you're wrong. Some people lose pounds, but not inches. Some people lose inches, but not pounds, and neither is wrong. It's just what your body's doing.

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By the way, if you'd like to learn more about sleep, I've got two awesome shows on the topic. Check out my interview with Dr. Kirk Parsley, All About the Science of Sleep. As well as my interview with Dr. Tara Youngblood also All About the Science of sleep, and specifically how sleep temperature affects sleep. And I'll put links to those in the show notes.

All right, now back to the show.

Gin Stephens: Okay, we have a question from Shae, and the subject is "Fasting Question." Shae says, “Good afternoon. I have been doing IF for about 10 months now, 100% clean fasting. I do one meal a day and average a 20- to 24-hour fast each day depending on my schedule. I like to stick to a two or three-hour eating window, but currently working from home while also homeschooling my son has led to the accidental 24-hour fasts from time to time. I used to get so cold when I first started IF, now I am noticing that I feel so hot after I've had my one meal a day and I've closed my window. My one meal has been based on whatever sounds good. Lately, that has been a homemade spinach salad mix, homemade barbecue chicken breast, and some yogurt with granola for dessert. My question is, why am I hot after eating?

I searched the Facebook group but didn't see any real answer. Thank you for taking the time to read this. Thank you for everything you do for us. I'm so grateful for your knowledge and I can't wait for the book release tomorrow. I keep waiting for it to appear in my Kindle Library.” So, I can see that Shae wrote this in June when Fast. Feast. Repeat. was about to pop into her library. So exciting.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Shae, thank you for your question. Yes. So, it is very common to feel hot after eating and that's typically due to the thermic effect of food. When we eat foods, a portion of calories burned during digesting that food generates heat. It's also the reason that certain types of protein is “more metabolic boosting” or counts as “less calories” than carbs or fat, and that's because the thermic effect of protein is around 30%, I think. So, 30% of the calories burned when you're burning protein are actually just the metabolism digesting that protein and that materializes in the form of heat. Eating is-- I mean, depending on what you're eating, but tends to be a hot process just by the metabolic process of generating energy. That's a really simple answer.

Gin Stephens: But it's true. If I eat more carbs, I'm more likely to be hotter. The more carbs, the hotter.

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you said that. Carbs in particular tend to boost the metabolic rate.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I can feel it cranking up and I have even taken my body temperature just for fun, because I love to see what's happening. I’ll feel super hot, I'll take my temperature, it'll be 99 or something like that. I can feel it. I could just feel the heat radiating off of me. It's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Especially if you eat protein and carbs, that's probably going to be the most heat-stimulating meal compared to something like a low carb, higher fat, if it's lower protein. We talked about this a lot before but, for example, they did studies where they massively, massively overfeed people, when you way overfeed them just with carbs, the body's response, yes, it turns a little bit of those carbs to fat but it actually preferentially tends to just crank up the metabolism and you just get really, really hot.

Gin Stephens: That is 100% true for me. Yeah. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: So funny because people think there's this idea with calories. “Oh, if you eat more calories than you burned--” Well, it is true for you more calories than you burned, then you would store it. But that doesn't mean that if you eat a certain amount of calories, you're only going to burn a certain amount because the body can make the choice to instead of storing it, burn them instead.

Gin Stephens: Jason Fung explained it to me in a way, the first time I ever really went, “Oh, we all hear of it as calories in, calories out.” And that's a great math formula. That is based on two assumptions. One is that all calories in are treated the same, which we know there aren't. But the other is that calories out is static, and that's not true. The whole idea of I have had my metabolism tested and my resting metabolic rate is X. We assume that that's like a static number that's never going to change but that's so not true. Our bodies can crank up calories out or crank down calories out, and you can't control that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, actually I just mentioned Cate Shanahan’s Fatburn Fix, which we'll put a link to that in the show notes by the way. But she talks about the metabolism and she says the metabolism isn't fixed, it's not a certain number. Your metabolism changes based on what energy you need. Basically, it just changes based on what your cells are getting, what you're eating.

Gin Stephens: Which is why when I see someone-- it makes me cringe now, when someone's like, my TDEE is blah, blah, blah. No, it isn't. It's not. Total daily energy expenditure, that's what TDEE. In some diet circles, people live and die by their TDEE. Your body is not working like that.

Melanie Avalon: We talked about NEAT before, which is non-exercise activity thermogenesis. That's basically a number in a way of calories that your body can just burn. It happens from fidgeting and just movement that you do throughout the day, but it can vary wildly. And the thing is some people's NEAT is really, really low. They'll overeat and NEAT doesn't really adjust and they gain weight from it. Some people, the NEAT just goes through the roof and they just naturally burn off all that extra calories without trying to.

Gin Stephens: Now, see, that's interesting. That made me think my restless legs after eating sugar, I wonder if that's related, it's like I can't be still. It's like my NEAT is gone crazy.

Melanie Avalon: I've thought about that because I used to get restless legs. Honestly, I want to have an episode just on restless legs.

Gin Stephens: Well, I know it's not magnesium. Sometimes, people say it's magnesium. I've had my magnesium levels tested and they're fine, and that's the one thing I have always been able to take in every day. It could be iron.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think there's like five things. One magnesium, not magnesium - iron. Looking back when I was really anemic and didn't know it, that's when my restless legs were through the roof.

Gin Stephens: But what's interesting is that it doesn't happen-- there's that definite correlation of too much sugar, restless legs.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, to the sugar point, I think it could be two things. It could be that, just too much energy. I keep referencing her book but Cate Shanahan, she posits that it's peripheral nerve changes from sugar consumption, which I've also read another book as well. The fifth thing, I think, likely involves dopamine. That's one of the reasons I was experimenting with nicotine patches, because of the restless legs.

Gin Stephens: Well, I feel it from too much sugar, like I said, but also how I mentioned earlier if I don't eat enough, and I have way too much ketosis energy, that also manifests itself after I've eaten, but only after I've eaten. I never have restless legs during the fast ever, but if I eat and haven't eaten enough, then I'll feel that little restless leg thing happening from-- I guess my body is trying to get rid of the ketones. I don't know. It feels like too much energy.

Melanie Avalon: This is why I don't know why this is but restless legs are the worst.

Gin Stephens: They really are. And my husband's like, “Be still.” I'm like, “I wish. Thank you.”

Melanie Avalon: For people who've never had them, they don't sound that bad, but they're just the worst. They're just so unpleasant and there's nothing you can't stop it. How do you? I don't know.

Gin Stephens: You can only stop it by really getting up and walking around. It always happens though when you're sitting in an airplane seat and when you're trying to go to bed at night or sitting on the couch or sitting in an auditorium. Those are the times that it's really, really unpleasant.

Melanie Avalon: Now, I'm wondering because you're speaking about how it happens at night, which same for me and the research I've done on it. It's typically usually at night for people. I wonder if that's because if it is something related to metabolic issues, maybe most people tend to be less insulin sensitive and have more metabolic issues at night. I'm just theorizing. I wonder if that has any connection at all.

Gin Stephens: I don't know. But ooh, ooh, did I tell you this? This is exciting. You know that PREDICT 2 study?

Melanie Avalon: You're going to be in it, right?

Gin Stephens: Yes. I got the box of stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you did?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, the box came. It's PREDICT 3 is where we are now.

Melanie Avalon: So, it's food?

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: What is it?

Gin Stephens: They're testing your response to things. I'm going to be wearing a continuous glucose monitor for seven days. And they sent me one, I have to send it back. What if I didn't send it back? What would they do?

Melanie Avalon: Hmm.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] I really want to keep it. Anyway, I'm supposed to send it back. I will send it back. I'm a rules follower. But you have to take a poop sample and send that to them. So, they're looking at your gut microbiome. They're looking at your response. They have these muffins that they send, and I'm going to have to eat muffins in the morning for a couple days. I know I'm going to have to do it.

Melanie Avalon: You're committed.

Gin Stephens: Well, this is why I said no to PREDICT 2, even though I was approved for the study about a year ago. I was like, “I don't have time to fool with all this.” But this is just all doing it here at home. I also think people had to go get blood drawn at a lab. But now it's all just self-collected, you do it all at home, and it's only seven days, I think it's easier than PREDICT 2 was, but they have an app called ZOE. The reason everyone has to eat these same exact muffins that they actually sent, you have to eat them at certain times and then wait a certain amount of time, and they're going to see what your blood glucose does. So, they're seeing what with this exact meal, what happens.

Melanie Avalon: That's exciting.

Gin Stephens: I know. So, then they'll also analyze my gut microbiome and see. Then, they make personalized suggestions based on the results. I'm so excited. I'll be talking about it more, I'm sure.

Melanie Avalon: When are you starting it?

Gin Stephens: I probably won't have started next time we record, I'm not sure, but I'm going to the beach with Chad. I want to wait till I've been home a few days. I'm also planning it around my schedule because I want to have the breakfast muffins on days when I don't have podcast episodes scheduled. I have it all kind of planned out around that. I'll be starting it in about a week from today.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I've had my CGM in the box for a month now. I was going to do it a few weeks ago because I'm bringing on a CGM company on to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, but I'm getting surgery in two days, and I was like, “I don't want to deal with monitoring all of this stuff.” I'm already stressed about surgery, so maybe we'll be doing it at a similar time. I was going to maybe start it after surgery.

Gin Stephens: Well, I want you to figure out a way that CGM company-- figure out a way for them to get one for me. I need one too. Do it.

Melanie Avalon: After they come on my show.

Gin Stephens: Get one for me because I will talk about it. I'm so interested. I want to know what my body is doing. I've been fascinated ever since I saw that Eran Segal video, “What is the best diet for humans?” It was in 2017, I've been fascinated since then. When he talked about that we all have an individual glucose response. I'm dying to know what mine is.

Melanie Avalon: I have so many questions for when I interview them because I think my biggest question is because people will say, “Oh, you should have slow-digesting carbs, and it's better to have like an extended blood sugar release rather than a spike." But then there's the idea that maybe the healthiest thing is to have a high spike but a short spike and then back to baseline.

Gin Stephens: Everything I read, and I talk about this in Fast. Feast. Repeat., that what we don't want is for our curve to look a scary roller coaster. You don't want it to look like high up, low dip, high up, low dip, like you're on the monster scary adult roller coaster. Instead, you want it to look like the little kid's roller coaster with a gentle up and a gentle down.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Say it was a roller coaster, it's like a fast roller coaster. So, it's like straight, and then the comparison between either a really high one up but then straight down, like a Tower of Terror type thing, compared to up, really high, and then slowly going down.

Gin Stephens: I think the goal is to never have it go up really high.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I actually think there might be a nuance there because I'm not sure that an acute high spike if it goes down quickly is a problem.

Gin Stephens: I feel like that would make me feel bad. I would feel that crash.

Melanie Avalon: I guess it would depend.

Gin Stephens: I don't know, I haven't tested my blood, so I don't really know. But what was interesting is I had a friend-- I haven't heard from him in a while actually. He was in my Facebook group, and he's a doctor in Canada, and every now and then he would send me like-- he was using a CGM. And he'd be like, “Look what happened with fasting.” And it was just interesting and I've been wanting to have one ever since.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm really, really excited. Paul Saladino, the carnivore guy?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: He is being all controversial now because he was carnivore for the longest time, now he's eating a lot of honey.

Gin Stephens: Okay. That's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because he realized that he felt like his body needed carbs. But he did an experiment with a CGM while bringing back the honey to see what happened. I did an episode on it. But it basically was high spikes right after the honey but then, pretty quick back to baseline. So, not an extended higher blood sugar. I think the main problem is the extended higher blood sugar, which is why I get nervous about a lot of people on keto diets who do experience extended higher blood sugars. I'm fascinated by that.

Gin Stephens: Because that's the whole thing with type 2 diabetes that they don't want to see, constant high blood sugar. That's where the damage occurs if your blood sugar is high.

Melanie Avalon: A lot of people on keto seem to have resting blood sugars that are high, and they call it like-- I don't remember. There's a word for it. But basically, the idea that the insulin receptors are becoming sensitive in a way, they're choosing to reject sugar to keep enough sugar around because it's low carb, but I don't know, I'm very fascinated by all of it. So, we shall see.

Gin Stephens: I think really a lot of these questions are not fully answered even.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Science is still figuring it out. Anyway, I'm really fascinated. I can't wait to see what I find out. I'm not sure I'll respond well to their muffins because they're very processed and that's the kind of thing I would not eat on its own in isolation. I never eat highly processed carbs by themselves ever. I might have tortilla chips, but I'm going to have them with hummus or with guacamole or with something that's going to slow down the absorption of just carbs. I would never open my window with a cookie or a muffin. Well, I wonder don't mind if I like slathered in peanut butter?

Melanie Avalon: Probably.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I've got to have it like they tell me to, just the muffin. So, I might be like lying on the floor. I might be sluggish that day. The things we do for science.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: I'm so excited. I've been having the fear of missing out. I've been watching my friends, the moderators that went through it that did PREDICT 2 and getting their results back. And anyway, I was like, “Why didn't I just do it?” Even though it was a bad time, I should have just done it. But anyway.

Melanie Avalon: I haven't tested my blood sugar. I used to test it religiously every single night. The best blood sugars I had, hands down, was when I was doing one meal a day, tons of fruit and low fat. And my blood sugar was always so great the next day.

Gin Stephens: That's telling.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And then I feel like it got wonky. So, all right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, if you would like to submit your own question to the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode. We'll put links to everything that we talked about. What will be at ifpodcast.com/episode180. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. You can follow me, I'm @melanieavalon. You can follow Gin, she's @gin_stephens. You can also join, I made a new Facebook group recently for people who want to do breath-testing for carbs, fats, or ketones. That's called Lumen Lovers and Bioscience Biohackers. And, yeah, anything else, Gin, you'd like to throw out there?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that's it. Good luck with your surgery.

Melanie Avalon: Isn't so-- Okay, next time we talk, it'll be done.

Gin Stephens: Yay!

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. I'm so scared. I'm so scared. But I guess it's over before you even realize, right?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, exactly. You'll be under anesthesia.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Okay, well, I will talk to you next week or some time.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 179 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com.

Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour or yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I have one of the most exciting announcements ever. I am about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life. For the rest of your life for free, I am not making this up. So, as you guys know, we're all about making the meals that you eat in your window, window worthy and eating nutritious whole foods supportive of both your health and the environment. That's why we are a huge fan of a company called ButcherBox. They provide easy affordable access to high quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage breed pork, and wild-caught seafood all shipped directly to your door. They had a waitlist for quite a while during quarantine because they wanted to make certain, they could honor all of their promises to both their farmers and their members, and now they are back.

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And one more announcement before we jump back in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Okay, here's the thing. You might be fasting clean, drinking water, drinking your black coffee, but did you know you might still be putting compounds directly into your body which are messing with your hormones and making you less likely to burn fat?

The average man uses around six skincare products per day. The average female uses around 12. And conventional skincare makeup in the US is full of things called endocrine disruptors. These are compounds which mess with our hormones, and these include obesogens, which can actually make our body store fat. It's honestly shocking. Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for their toxic nature, including carcinogens as well, and the US has banned less than 10.

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All right, now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 179 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great. It's been so long since I've talked to you.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: Listeners, don't know when these come out a week apart, but we've recorded the last one yesterday. So, it's been one day. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Little quick turnaround here. So, anything new since yesterday?

Gin Stephens: No, not a thing. Everything is the same.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. How about you anything new since yesterday?

Melanie Avalon: Not really. Except I just told you I'm slowly bringing wine back into my life, and that feels really nice. Dry Farm Wines, obviously.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I would never be able to drink any other kind. I've just-- yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I will say, listeners, I haven't had wine in probably, like a year and a half. I'd been having a sip, literally a sip of Dry Farm Wines every single night, but I hadn't really actually had wine like a year and a half.

Gin Stephens: Like a glass of wine.

Melanie Avalon: Like a glass, mm-hmmm.

Gin Stephens: That's so funny. I can't imagine having one sip of wine. What was the reason for having one sip?

Melanie Avalon: It just felt like a nice little routine, little supplement. You know how people take a shot of apple cider vinegar before eating? I don't know, I feel like it kind of had that effect. I think was more mental rather than anything else. But I will say, past few nights I've had like two glasses both nights of Dry Farm Wines and I'm fine. Dry Farm Wines for the win. Yeah, for listeners, if you haven't tried it, if you want to try hangover-free experiences with wine, definitely try it. Our link for them is dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, and that gets you a bottle for a penny.

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I'm glad you're figuring out how to work it back in and enjoying it and feeling good.

Melanie Avalon: Baby steps. Now, I’ve just got to get the fruit back.

Gin Stephens: Get that fruit back in. We're having hamburgers for dinner and I'm so excited. [unintelligible [00:06:38] anybody's interested.

Melanie Avalon: I like hamburgers without the bun.

Gin Stephens: It's going to have a bun.

Melanie Avalon: And not cooked. So, just hamburger meat.

Gin Stephens: It's a Green Chef meal. I like Green Chef.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they sponsored our podcast way back when.

Melanie Avalon: They did, back in the day.

Gin Stephens: Back in the day, but yeah, this is a Green Chef meal and so it's got zucchini, like oven fries on the side, so I'm very excited. I love a good cheeseburger with the bun and the cheese and the meat.

Melanie Avalon: I love the good raw ground beef.

Gin Stephens: No, thank you. No, no, no.

Melanie Avalon: It's so good. I will literally eat it that way.

Gin Stephens: Okay, not me. I mean I like a medium rare hamburger. So, I guess that would be for some people, but anyway, good times. What will you have for dinner tonight? Do you know?

Melanie Avalon: That's a good question. Probably shrimp or turkey or egg whites and cucumbers and maybe try to bring in some fruit. Maybe.

Gin Stephens: So, why the egg whites and not the egg yolks? I'm curious.

Melanie Avalon: Because I'm trying to do low fat, high carb.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Trying to get back to that.

Gin Stephens: All right, how are you feeling with that? Good?

Melanie Avalon: Actually, I feel demotivated because I keep trying to bring it back in and I get hypoglycemia symptoms and it's very bothersome. I get ravenously hungry basically, and that was never before a problem before. So, it's a little bit upsetting. But Glenn Livingston who has the book Never Binge Again, he came on my show and then I went on his show, which actually will probably be airing. I think he said he's going to air it probably around the time this show comes out. So, I can put a link to that in the show notes. But he's a huge fruit fan and I think he convinced me to bring back the fruit again. So, I'm going to do it.

Gin Stephens: I think you should do it. When I was experimenting with low fat just because it was right after Mastering Diabetes and I read that and I realized that was what my-- that one DNA analysis that I had suggested that exact percentage of fat they had said in Mastering Diabetes. I didn't have the hypoglycemic kind of thing. But I also eat a lot of grains, but I always have also.

Melanie Avalon: The mistake I made was I-- now that it's a mistake, but I tried a really intense ketogenic MCT oil type diet, and I think I lost my ability to-- I don't know, I think my liver is not used to running on carbs.

Gin Stephens: Very interesting. What's your Lumen telling you?

Melanie Avalon: I haven't tried it since trying to bring back the carbs. But this is something that's really interesting really quick. So, some of the symptoms I get when I try the fruit, if it's too much, it's like a heart racing. It feels like a sugar overload and the only time I felt that that I remember was before when I was eating a lot of fruit was on my birthday, one year, and they brought out a gluten-free chocolate cake. And I ate like the whole thing and my heart was racing and I was like, “I never want to feel this again.” And now, I'm getting that feeling from just eating like four kiwis, and it's really, really upsetting, but I've got to persevere. They say you've got to just stick it out. You've got to just be like 'body we're eating fruit' and I'll learn how to.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm not doing any kind of restricting at all after that experiment yesterday. In fact, how I said I was going to have broccoli with hummus? I forgot that I had bought some blackberries, and so I opened my window, blackberries with heavy cream on it. So, you see it was neither low fat nor low carb. It was absolutely perfect that blackberries with heavy cream on top.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, blueberries are the only fruit that they don't give me any heart racing. I still, in the fast, the next day feel hungry.

Gin Stephens: Do you like blackberries?

Melanie Avalon: I do. Maybe I should try some of those.

Gin Stephens: Of course, you're doing low fat but blackberries with heavy cream are just so-- I mean really, you could pour heavy cream over cat food and I would probably like it. But anyway, It's really good on blackberries, and probably blueberries and strawberries and all the berries, but you don't do dairy.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I have been eating low fat and I rinse it to try to make it-- and I might start making my own cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: I do love cottage cheese.

Melanie Avalon: I love cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: They have like cultured cottage cheese.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I have.

Gin Stephens: Now, I feel I should go get some cultured cottage cheese just to eat it, but I'm not going to rinse it and I'm not going to get low fat.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, no, no, no, no. Get Nancy's cultured. It's so good and then I rinse it.

Gin Stephens: I think I'm going to because I got to eat the rest of these blackberries because they were on sale. That's why I bought them. So yeah, okay.

Melanie Avalon: I think I'm going to start making it-- Apparently, you can make it in your Instant Pot. I am so excited.

Gin Stephens: I don't have an Instant Pot.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to make it from fat-free grass-fed milk cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: We got to stop recording the podcast. Thank you all it was great to hear you today. An eight-minute podcast is [laughs] enough.

Melanie Avalon: Got to go make my cottage cheese.

Gin Stephens: I've got to go buy some. I'm not going to-- I have a book about making cheese. It's like the 30-minute cheese or something. It's some kind of a book for making quick cheese, but I never made any cheese. All these great intentions.

Melanie Avalon: So many things.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: All right.

Gin Stephens: Are we ready to get started?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. All right. So, to start things off, we have two questions and they touch on a similar topic. So, we will read both of those. The first one comes from Adele. The subject is "IF With Small Kids and Holidays."

And Adele says, “Hi, ladies, I just want to say thank you so much for the podcasts. I listen religiously and look forward to a new podcast every week. The information that you provide has really helped me on my journey, which I'm still relatively new to. My question to you is how do I deal with questions from my kids who are six and four? My six-year-old is starting to make comments about me not eating, and I don't want them to have a bad complex with food or think that I do.

I've been telling them that I'm just not hungry and I don't feel like eating until later in the day. Is this the right approach? Or do you have other advice? We are also going on holidays for 10 days next week and I worried about fasting while on holidays, as we'll be sitting down together for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and I was thinking of trying to skip breakfast only. But now, I'm worried in front of the kids to just sit with a cup of coffee only. I don't want to undo all of my hard work by going mad for 10 days. I'd like to be able to find a balance. Do you have any tips for me that can help with this? Thanks in advance.”

And then, we also have a question from Jessica. The subject is "My Kids Are Watching Me." Jessica says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, first and foremost, I want to thank you ladies for all your hard work you put into this podcast. I am new at this and I have been loving catching up and you both have helped me understand this. I love it. I have two questions I would love your input on.” So actually, I'll go ahead and read her second question. And we can come back to her first question. So, her second question, she says, “I have two kids three and five. My husband brought to my attention the other day that they are watching me. What does it look like to my kids when I'm not eating with them? They see me skipping meals, and I'm sure they might start having questions. I'm not so sure fasting is a good idea for children. So, my question is do you ladies have any kinds of suggestions or have you ever dealt with this before? If so, what did you do or what would you recommend? I certainly would never want my kids to start questioning their eating habits at their ages. They're not overweight, and they are good eaters. Thank you so much for all you do. I apologize if I'm asking something you've already touched on, and I missed it. Love your podcast.”

And we can circle back to her other question. But kids and this problem. Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Jessica is right that intermittent fasting is not recommended for kids. And by that, I mean we do not recommend that kids or even teenagers start with a prescriptive, like, “I am going to have an eating window and it's going to be from this time to this time every day and I eat in a five-hour window or an eight-hour window,” or whatever. It's not recommended until they've reached physical maturity to the level that it would be okay. So, if you have a teenager who you feel like is physically mature, talk to their pediatrician, make sure that they are developmentally ready for intermittent fasting, but obviously, the children in these two questions are way too young for that.

I was an elementary teacher for 28 years, and I find that we often overcomplicate things in our adult minds when we're thinking about how kids are going to respond. When really, kids are great with simple explanations. I look back to how I was a crazy dieter for so many years when my kids were really little, and I was like doing crazy things. They watched me have a very twisted relationship with food, with my body, with eating. But I wasn't fasting, but they were watching. I think that they were more likely to get a complex during those crazy years than now.

Now that I'm an intermittent faster, of course, my kids are grown and they are intermittent fasters too now, but if they had watched me as an intermittent faster growing up, they would see someone who does not have a crazy relationship with food. When I eat, they see me eat with gusto and enjoyment. They see that I love food, that I don't fear food, that I eat what feels good, eat what I love, stop when I'm satisfied. And I don't use dieting language like, “Oh, I shouldn't have eaten that,” or, “Oh, I'm getting fat.” Things like that. Those are the things that kids pick up on a lot.

I think you just live the lifestyle the way that you feel right living it. And if a child asks, “Hey, why aren't you eating?” Say, “I'm a grownup and grownups have different needs, grownup bodies need food differently than growing bodies. Growing bodies need to eat more frequently because you're trying to grow. And adult bodies, we're not trying to grow. So, we don't need to eat as often. And the kids go, “Oh, okay,” and then they go on. And they really don't need long, drawn-out explanations. They just really instinctually understand growing bodies have different needs. And if you have a child that's trying to copy you, like, “Oh, I'm not going to eat either. I'm going to fast too.” Say, “No, fasting is not for kids. You have a growing body, I want you to eat when you're hungry.” So, I think that they understand that.

Now that being said, if you have a kid in the morning and your child’s like, “I don't want to eat, I'm not hungry,” just naturally, I would not force the child to eat. Teach your child to be an intuitive eater, eat when they're hungry, stop when they're satisfied. Don't say, “Have one more bite. Just eat a little more.” Let them stop when they've had enough, and they'll turn into lifetime intuitive eaters who don't have all the baggage that so many of us came along with. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: That was an epic and perfect answer. I was wondering, growing up what was the messaging when you grew up for when you were eating?

Gin Stephens: I had a mother who was a hippie. She didn't really force me. I remember one time she made me sit there at the table till I was going to eat, it was like squash or something. And I was like, “I will die before I'll eat the squash.” Now, I love squash. I sit there for hours, and I never ate it. [laughter] I won that battle, I remember that. And I think she never did it again.

Melanie Avalon: I like that story.

Gin Stephens: I was like, “I'm not going to eat it.” I'll be like an old lady sitting here with this plate of squash. Anyhow, I remember that, but really, my mother wasn't that interested in why I was eating, and whether it was a TV dinner or a can of SpaghettiOs, it didn't matter to her. She was fine with-- if I wanted to eat a sandwich or, it didn't matter. There weren't a lot of rules around. Now, we're having a meal and don’t eat between meals. I started using snacking more recreationally later. But I went to college at 17, so I never really lived at home again for a long period of time after the age of 17, even in the summers. One time I worked at a camp all summer and then one time I worked on college campuses. So, yeah, I left home pretty early.

Melanie Avalon: I forgot about that, that we both did that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Then I was like, just becoming a grownup and trying to figure out my own relationship with food, but we didn't really have structured mealtimes. I think it would have been better if I had grown-- I would have liked-- who knows? It's hard to say, but if I'd grown up in a household where it was like, “Now, we're sitting down to have breakfast.” “Now, we're sitting down to lunch.” “Now, we're sitting down to dinner.” Instead, it was more like, grab something whenever you felt like it. no one ever asked me really if I was hungry.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's so interesting.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, it is interesting, but my mother struggled with her weight. She was a dance teacher. She was always complaining about her weight or complaining about her size or trying to be on a diet. And so, I think I saw a lot of that. I don't know, it's hard. No matter what, we're probably doing something wrong. You could just do the best you can.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, we can go to Jessica's other question. She said, “I love running and I've been doing it for about 15 years, anywhere between four to seven miles, four to six times a week. I've been on the 18:6 IF cycle. I tend to eat a lunch and an early dinner. However, I run in the mornings and I'm wondering if not eating after my runs is a bad idea. I feel fine not eating. I'm hard-headed though and sometimes not in tune with my body. So, I would appreciate it any thoughts you might have on this?”

Gin Stephens: I think that you're in tune with your body enough to know that that was bad for your body, you would feel that. So, if you feel fine not eating, I think you would know. You would feel possibly shaky or you would have some sort of a sign that your body was not happy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because we get a lot of questions of people who do experience that. If it's not broken, don't fix it is what I say.

Gin Stephens: Really, if it feels right, it probably is. And if it feels wrong, it probably is. Our bodies have amazing feedback mechanisms in place when we connect to them.

Melanie Avalon: It's very, very true.

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Lisa. And the subject is "Melatonin." “Hi, ladies. I love, love, love your work and have been binge listening to both this podcast and Gin's other podcasts for almost a month now. I came to IF about six weeks ago primarily as a way to prevent Alzheimer's disease which my mother has. I don't weigh myself because scales play mind games with me, but I noticed clothes are looser and I feel overall just wonderful. High energy, more stable moods, and best of all, I crave healthier foods.

My question relates to sleep aids. One important anti-Alzheimer's measure is to get regular solid sleep. Being perimenopausal, my sleep hasn't been so solid. So, I've been given the green light to take melatonin at night to help. My understanding is that the chewable varieties are most effective. You can probably guess my question. Does chewing two pills at night break my fast? I usually close my window around 8:00, but I don't want to take my melatonin until around 11:00 which is when I like to go to bed. I'm almost finished reading Fast. Feast. Repeat., so apologies if there's an answer in that book that I haven't yet read.” And then, she lists the ingredients of her melatonin, and it does have flavors and sweeteners.“ So, thanks.”

Melanie Avalon: So, thank you, Lisa, so much for your question. Melatonin in itself, the hormone, is not going to break a fast. So, if you were to be crazy like me in the past and order straight pure melatonin powder, there would not be any fast breaking, but don't do that, that can be dangerous. The supplement that you listed, it does have a lot of ingredients in it. Like Gin said, artificial sweeteners like xylitol, maltodextrin which is actually sugar, starch, natural flavors. The technical answer is yes. My little caveat to it, and I'm not saying this to encourage people to take things lightly, but I think if there's the potential for something a supplement being least problematic in the whole grand scheme of things, it's probably shortly after your eating window has closed because you're still in the fed state, that tiny little bit of whatever-- it's not like you're into the fasted state already where taking in a supplement is going to send a different signal to your body because you're in the fed state at that moment.

So, this is really just supplements specifically. That said, I really wouldn't recommend the one that you're taking, Lisa, because it's got a lot of stuff in there. You don't need all that stuff in there. There are much pure forms that you can get. And I would actually really recommend, I had on my other show, Dr. Kirk Parsley who made a sleep supplement called Sleep Remedy and it does feature melatonin in the correct ratio that your brain needs as well as other natural substrates that your brain needs to like naturally instigate the sleep state. Those aren't pharmaceutical or a drug, it's just a supplement. So, I really recommend that. I'll put link to it in the show notes and a coupon. Those are my thoughts. Basically, I would suggest a different supplement anyway, even though if you are taking one, you're taking I'm not concerned about it from a breaking the fast perspective. I'm just concerned about it in that I don't like all those ingredients that are in it. Gin?

Gin Stephens: Yep, I was going to say that exact thing about a supplement at bedtime. For someone, like me, who say, “Fast, clean, fast clean. The clean fast is so important.” I completely agree with the fact that if you just close your window at 8:00, you're only three hours away from that. And so, your body has not made the transition. If you had a whole meal, that would be a different thing.

Melanie Avalon: Right. If you had food.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, then that starts the clock over. But a tiny little supplement like that is not going to interrupt because you're still digesting your last meal, you haven't shifted over into fat burning yet.

Melanie Avalon: It's not sending a different signal, basically.

Gin Stephens: Yes, I liked the way you said that. If you were 15 hours into your fast, it's going to feel different. Plus, even if it does make you feel a little, you're going to sleep. So, yeah, I completely agree with that. I've got to try that sleep remedy, Melanie. I've never tried it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. You haven't tried it?

Gin Stephens: No, have him send me some.

Melanie Avalon: Wait. Gin, how have you not tried it?

Gin Stephens: I don't know, all the struggle I've had with my sleep.

Melanie Avalon: I have taken it consistently for the past five or six years.

Gin Stephens: I've got to get some of that. Work your magic, and then we can talk about it.

Melanie Avalon: I can work some magic.

Gin Stephens: Work some magic.

Melanie Avalon: And they have an unflavored version.

Gin Stephens: Is it something you dissolve in water?

Melanie Avalon: Well, he has the supplement pill-- the supplements, and then he has drinks versions. So, you can look it over and see what you want.

Gin Stephens: All right. Well, I'd be interested to try it.

Melanie Avalon: Just to say, I will make that happen. Listeners, so if you go to melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy and use the coupon code, MelanieAvalon, you will get 10% off. Yeah, so I take the unflavored capsules, but there is a drink packet as well. That's actually a good question. Gin, what would you think about the drink version, because that would be more like a drink but it doesn't have calories?

Gin Stephens: I'm still pretty loosey-goosey up until I go to bed just because I have the evening eating window. I would never want to do something early in the day when I've woken up that would inadvertently break my fast because I'm deep in the fasted state. Right before bed, your body is still shifting over and a small sleep aid, I don't know how much it is, how much is the drink?

Melanie Avalon: It's a packet that you mix. It's five calories.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, probably not going to make a huge difference. It's tiny and it's at bedtime. But I guarantee if I woke up in the morning and drink something like that, I would be shaking, I would have--

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad we discussed that. I hadn't really thought about that way until we talked to it right now. But the signals' framework-- because you're not changing anything that's happening signal wise, and especially this drink would have five calories.

Gin Stephens: I would take the capsule though, just because but sometimes people really overstressed about stuff that's in capsules too. And they're like, I want to take this magnesium at bedtime, and it's got whatever, whatever in the capsule. Yeah, that's probably not a problem. Not very much. So, at bedtime is the time that I worry the least about supplements.

Melanie Avalon: What I love about the capsules is they're completely unflavored. There's no problematic ingredients.

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All right, now back to the show.

Our next question comes from Phoebe. The subject is, "IF Harder at Certain Points in Menstrual Cycle." Phoebe says, “Hi, Melanie and Gin. I've been doing IF for over a month now trying to find where my body is happiest, something between 16:8 and 18:6 and taking it day by day. One thing I'm starting to notice is that the more my hormones are changing closer to my period, I have a very regular cycle and very predictable bloating and cramps, etc. So, I know it's coming. The harder fasting seems to be, I feel hungry or sooner and generally more shaky or lethargic. Things I felt in the first days of IF, but which soon vanished.

I'm wondering if hormonal processes are to blame for fasting suddenly becoming much harder the last week or so. Have you heard other people saying the same thing? And yes, I am clean fasting, not over-exercising, and sleeping enough. Thank you so much for all y'all do.”

Gin Stephens: All right. I wish I knew how much time that really was because Phoebe says over a month now. So, there's a big difference between 5 weeks or 12 weeks. If Phoebe is within the first eight weeks still, it could just be getting to the end of the adjustment period where you have a harder time. Overall, with people in the groups, we hear over and over again that all of a sudden, fasting gets really, really hard. That's when that metabolic switch is getting ready to happen. The metabolic switch we talked about last week as your body is approaching that point and making the shift to fat burning. So, it totally could be your body getting ready to make that metabolic switch depending on where you are in the process.

But, I remember when I was doing intermittent fasting in the earlier days, and I was really tracking a lot of things and paying more attention to windows, and I can remember it was always like a shock to me every month because my cycle hasn't been regular like that. But especially since I've been going through perimenopause and menopause, I was wacky for years before I even started intermittent fasting. I had trouble with fibroids, that sort of thing. But I can remember I would be hungry and I'm like, “What's wrong with me? Why am I so hungry? What's going on?” And then, bam, the next day. And then, finally I started to recognize, but every month-- or not month, it might be 40 days, then one time-- Anyway, my cycle was all over the place during that period of my life, but every time I had the same reaction.

Melanie Avalon: Like not realizing?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I was like, I am just so hungry, and I'm like going to the grocery store and buying all the ice-cream. And then the next day, there it is. It was just so very funny because it surprised me every time. Then, all of a sudden, I realized. I don't know. we've been women our whole lives, and why was it suddenly a shock, but I know I really noticed it with intermittent fasting in those earlier days, but now, almost at the end of menopause, Melanie. I looked it up last night, yesterday was day 333. I'm now on day 334. I'm a month away from being able to say that I am done.

Melanie Avalon: I know nothing about all of this.

Gin Stephens: Well, a year. You give it a year, a year with no cycle and then you can say, you're officially-- And here's what's really, really funny. I looked up one time, what was the average age for menopause, and it was 51. And here I am, 51. I'm going to be perfectly average, spot on. Yay. Hooray for that.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder you probably were more in tune to the hunger because you were so used to not being hungry with intermittent fasting, so it was like, what?

Gin Stephens: I think so. I think that intermittent fasting made me see it more than I had before. I think that's true, but I just remember that process of being surprised every time and then all of a sudden, like “Okay, now I get it. I get it. Thank you.” But I was getting more in tune with my body.

Melanie Avalon: Do you suggest for women who do experience like crazy hunger to continue with what they are?

Gin Stephens: Well, I continued fasting, but I had longer windows and ate the food my body was craving. I just said that's what this is. And I bought the ice-cream.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I definitely think for a lot of women, the carbs are pretty important and all of that.

Gin Stephens: But my body certainly craved them, and instead of having ice-cream, I probably could have filled that same hole with, say, the blackberries with heavy cream.

Melanie Avalon: That’s what I was just about to say was, I would definitely encourage if you are having the cravings, there are different ways you could fulfill that craving. And if it is at all possible to get it in more of a whole foods form, that will help everything the most in the long term. Even if you want to eat cake mixes instead.

Gin Stephens: I can't think of the last time I’ve bought ice-cream. I don't think-- We just had been in the house for a year. I don't think I've bought ice-cream, like actual ice-cream the whole time we've been living in this house, which is -- I used to eat it all the time, but then I realized that the sugar gave me restless legs. I'm okay if I had a little treat. I just have discovered-- you're familiar with KIND bars, I'm sure. They have frozen KIND bars that are almost like ice-cream, but I think they're non-dairy.

Melanie Avalon: Oh really?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they're so good. They were almost like having like a little ice cream bar, like a Snickers bar ice-cream bar something, but the ingredients are so much different than you would find. I have some of those in the freezer but I'm not really gravitating towards them every day.

Melanie Avalon: One of the things I used to really love was there was a frozen kefir at Whole Foods. I can't find it now.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I bet I would love that.

Melanie Avalon: And it was low fat too. It was perfect. It was low fat. Yeah, frozen. It was LifeWay brand. If you ever see it-- Yeah, it was really good.

Gin Stephens: If I ever see it, I'll get it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: But now I have these wonderful little truffles. I have to just share these truffles with somebody, I was on her podcast. And so, she sent me as a thank you these little tiny truffles. They're so amazing. And so first of all, I told my husband he was not to consider them as his. [laughs] And then, I hid them in the refrigerator. And then, he's like, “Where are those truffles?” Every night, I get them out, we each have one. He's allowed to have one and I'm allowed to have one because we're savoring them and making them-- I'm not allowed to have one if that makes sense. I just know that it's just the perfect amount and I won't feel bad after having one. And it's going to make it last for days and days.

Melanie Avalon: I love that.

Gin Stephens: I know. All right, everybody for the next one.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Our next question is from René. The subject is "24-Hour Fast." René says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, love the podcast. I learned so much from it. I'm wondering about your opinions on adding in two 24-hour fasts per week to my routine. I've been IFing consistently since late February 2020. My minimum fast is 16 hours but my average is 19 to 20 hours. I've seen a weight loss of three to five pounds, very disappointing.” I wonder when she sent this. She said. “Yes, I am clean fasting, black coffee and plain Lacroix or Topo Chico only during the fast and eat a pretty clean diet during my window. I would say 85% to 90% whole foods, 10% to 15% processed. I do like that my wine and I have it a few times a week.

I’ve read Fast. Feast. Repeat., and it sounds maybe it's time for me to give ADF a shot but I am hesitant to do so. I like to eat something daily. I'm wondering if I throw in two 24-hour fasts a week, as in eat Sunday night at 5:00, and then don't eat until dinner, Monday at 6:00. And then, repeat that again Wednesday to Thursday. Following those with a 16 to 18-hour fast on Thursday and Friday to refeed and maintain 20-hour fasts the other days. Do we think that that could jumpstart my weight loss? I only have 15 to 18 pounds to lose. I'm at 158. My goal is 140. I am 5’5". But it seems like they just don't want to come off. I would love to hear what you ladies think of this plan or if you have better ideas. Thanks in advance. René.”

So, René sent this mid-August. She's been IFing for, let's see, February, March, April, May June, July, about six months, and she's lost three to five pounds.

Gin Stephens: Great question, René. First of all, I'm going to say something that's probably going to make you super sad. And that is the wine. Look, I have had a struggle with wine, and I'll be talking more about that over coming months but in Delay, Don't Deny, and I think I talked about this and Fast. Feast. Repeat. as well. When I was getting to my initial goal weight back in 2015, I delayed wine for about 10 weeks. I had a goal, I wanted to get to it. It was about time to shop for spring clothes. I wanted to go ahead and get to my goal weight so I could go shopping and buy my spring wardrobe. That was what it was. So, I delayed wine and also ultra-processed foods, which you'll remember the discussion of that from Fast. Feast. Repeat.

Even though I had already lost, I had lost 55 pounds at that point of my journey. I had 20 to go to get to my goal. My initial goal was to lose 75 pounds. And even though I'd already lost 55 pounds, I started losing at the rate of 2 pounds a week, which is really crazy for somebody who's already lost 55 pounds and is approaching their goal. Usually that's when weight loss really slows down, but mine really picked up because of the food choices I was making. Not having the alcohol really turbocharged my weight loss.

I have since figured out what I think is the reason. You've heard me talk about DNA analysis. I did a different company recently, just ran it through. It's is not a very expensive one, but I ran my raw data through their company, and for the first time I got information about my rate of alcohol metabolism. I am a slow alcohol metabolizer. That blew my mind. It made me realize why alcohol affected me so much when it came to weight loss because my body has to focus on dealing with the alcohol. Your liver processes alcohol. Your liver is also going to be the place where you want to be processing your fat that you're going into ketosis. I really think that for people like me who are slow alcohol metabolizers, alcohol may really be that link that is keeping you from tapping into your fat-burning superpower.

I actually have been experimenting with the ketone breathalyzer that Melanie's talked about before, and I have one too, and noticed a giant difference in my ketone levels for days after having any alcohol at all. I know that nobody wants to hear that alcohol could be the culprit for you, but man, my body sure has told it to me.

I also see that you don't really want to do ADF, so I would pull out Fast. Feast. Repeat. and look at the Intermittent Fasting Toolbox Chapter. You do not have to do full-on ADF. You can do Toolbox Strategy 2. I called it kind of a loose version of ADF because you're having short windows a few days a week and then longer windows, so you're getting that alternate pattern without having a full down day. So, look at Toolbox Strategy 2 where you're throwing in a few. You mentioned having two 24-hour fasts per week. Yeah, I would certainly try that. That, plus the wine and I really think you would see some things change. I'm sorry to tell you that because wine is amazing.

Melanie Avalon: I will weigh in and provide a-- I guess it could equally be a Debbie Downer or it could be a not Debbie Downer if you prefer the wine.

Gin Stephens: And again, sorry if your name is Debbie.

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's what I was just thinking. So, me looking at what you're eating and drinking the 85%, 90% whole foods, 10% to 15% processed, and then wine a few times a week, everything Gin said is completely true and stands. Some people are slow metabolizers, some people--

Gin Stephens: I'm still mad about that, by the way.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Struggle with weight loss, with wine. For a silver lining, from what I've seen, the majority of the research on alcohol and wine actually tends to-- so not like the food choices with the wine, but just wine and alcohol itself tends to correlate to lower weights, particularly in women. Wine and alcohol itself can't actually become body fat. So, when you are gaining weight, if you're gaining weight from drinking, it's from two potential things. It's what you're eating with the wine and/or what Gin talked about. If it's messing with how you're metabolizing other fuels, it could be an issue.

So basically, it's possible that it's fine. It's possible that it's not fine. It's definitely something that you can play with and see. I would say if I were to focus on something, I would focus on either going all whole foods, cutting out the processed foods, because she doesn't mention macros at all or trying a macros approach. So, either low carb, high fat or high carb low fat. And with both of those, I would recommend 10% or less of the macro you're limiting. So, like 10% fat diet or 10% carbs diet. Out of all those choices, maybe try what sounds most appealing to you. I think you'll see biggest results from adjusting the food choices probably. So, that's definitely something to try.

Yeah, if you're not wanting to try ADF, I wouldn't make that the first choice, like Gin said, because there's so many other things you can try. So, why do something you don't want to try?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, exactly. I just was shocked at the difference it made in my breath ketone scores, that's the thing I wasn't expecting. I couldn't believe the difference that it made in fact. And then, that was what really sent me looking for-- I guess I've never really come across the idea that some people are slow alcohol metabolizers and all the stuff I've read about people's bodies handling things differently. Like for example, I had read about caffeine metabolism. I know I'm a fast caffeine metabolizer. The other DNA analyses I did all told me that, but I never saw anything about alcohol. So, then I was like, “I wonder if we can have different rates of alcohol metabolism,” then I looked it up and sure enough there it was. It was really using the ketone readings that let me see something was going on.

Melanie Avalon: Also, yeah, for those ketone readings, if anybody's interested in going down that route of breath analyzing, I do have a group for it. It's called Lumen Lovers and Biosense Biohackers. So, you guys can join me there. Did I talk yet on the show about that recent study that just came out with alcohol and the rodents? That blew my mind.

Gin Stephens: I can't remember.

Melanie Avalon: It's a new study and it was looking at rats where they basically only gave them alcoholic water.

Gin Stephens: For some reason, yeah, but maybe we were just talking about it. I can't remember if we talked about it on the podcast or off the air.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know if we did. So, there was a study recently-- It just sounds really funny. They took rats and they had rats on a weight-promoting diet. So, like high-fat, high-carb, made to gain weight. Then, they had rats also on that diet, but all of their water was slightly alcoholic. And then, they had rats, I don't know what the third wing was. I think--

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, we have not talked about this. I don't think we have. This does not sound familiar.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you haven't heard-- Okay. Yeah, so the study, it was released January of this year, 2020. And the title is "Long-term low-dose ethanol intake improves health span and resists high fat-diet induced obesity in mice." And the setup was that they had mice that were eating a high-fat, high-carb calorie diet to make them obese. And then, they had a group also eating that diet, but their water actually had that 3.5% V/V, I'm not sure what that means, ethanol in their drinking water. And then, they had the group on a standard diet also with the ethanol.

They did this to, in their words, “Investigate the effects of long-term low-dose ethanol intake in vivo.” And it was honestly really shocking because the group that was eating the obesogenic diet without alcohol obviously got a lot of problems, like everything just crashed and burned basically. They got metabolically unhealthy, they gained weight, their liver triglycerides got bad. They got markers of just a lot of health issues. The group that had the water supplemented with ethanol didn't experience any of those effects. It's honestly really, really shocking.

Gin Stephens: That is bizarre.

Melanie Avalon: I was shocked reading it. I didn't think it would be that intense of a response. They have lot theories in it about why that might be happening. It could be activation of AMPK, which is something we talk about a lot, or at least I talk about it a lot. I'm not sure we talk a lot about in this show, but that's a gene that's expressed in the fasted state. And its longevity-promoting gene and it makes your body basically turn to its own self for fuel sources. So, it's great, we get during fasting so that could possibly be at play. It might have to do with insulin sensitivity. And it could be a lot of other things. Their conclusion basically, they said, “Our findings show that not only could long-term low-dose ethanol intake improve the physical performance and the health span in mice, but also boost the defense mechanism against the high-fat diet. Extended evaluations are needed to assess the long-term impacts of moderate alcohol intake on organs or systems such as the brain, the muscular, and the cardiovascular system. Findings from the current study substantiate opinions on the protective effects of moderate alcohol intake.”

Gin Stephens: They weren't trying to lose weight, right? It just prevented weight gain. Is that what they're saying?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Basically, they weren't adding it to like a normal diet. They were adding it to a diet made to make the rats obese and metabolically unhealthy. And when they had alcohol, they were protected from all of that.

Gin Stephens: Okay. But they were not like overweight rats who were trying to lose weight during the rat study?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it wasn't a weight loss study. But it makes you wonder, if it is having all these effects, it's very intriguing and it speaks to the potential role of wine in a healthy diet, if it works with your body for weight loss.

Gin Stephens: That's the kind of study I would have clung to like a life raft when I was trying to-- Look, it makes it better, it makes it better. That's why I was drinking so much wine but then realizing how it was affecting me--

Melanie Avalon: And the crazy thing is, I think for me, it does make me better.

Gin Stephens: Enough people say it that I believe-- I believe it if it is, but just for me, it's just been shocking to see the difference.

Melanie Avalon: My body composition hands down throughout my life has been the best during the time-- I know it could just be correlation, but it was definitely during the time that I was drinking the most wine.

Gin Stephens: But I lost weight the fastest, that was back when I was weighing daily and calculating, and I knew what my weekly average was doing. And I'd been on that road for a while to lose the 55 pounds before, but I lost two pounds a week after eliminating the wine, and I would notice if I had it. I just really notice the correlation between my weight and wine, and any alcohol back when I was a regular weigher. So, René, experiment with it and see. You may be like me, and the wine could make a difference for you. Or you could be like the rats or Melanie, and the wine helps you. That's a variable to play around with.

Melanie Avalon: I said it at the beginning but Dry Farm Wines, the reason we love them so much is it's basically a company that goes throughout Europe and finds the wineries practicing organic practices and then they extensively test the wines to make sure they are free of alcohols, free of pesticides, free of toxins, free of mold, low sugar, and low alcohol. And they're dry farmed, which is the traditional way of winemaking. And it actually creates more of a xenohormesis potential in the grapes, which is basically just saying that's likely going to have more compounds that actually jumpstart those longevity genes in our body. The link, dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, gets you a bottle for a penny.

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Shall we do one more quick question?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think we have time for one more. This is from Alexis and the subject is "Morning Workout." “If I work out in the morning, then I am hungry, but I don't want to eat and break my fast. However, if I don't eat after my morning walk, then I can feel sick and queasy. Any tips to hold me over so I don't break my fast until later in the day?” And she signed it Lexi, even though her email came from Alexis, she goes by Lexi. What do you say to Lexi?

Melanie Avalon: So, I have a few different thoughts here. She says workout but she says it's a morning walk, so it's not like an intense gym session, which if that were the case it would make more sense. Do you find, Gin, that most people get hungry or sick and queasy from just a walk? I'm just curious.

Gin Stephens: I'm wondering if Lexi is just really early in the process and is not fat adapted yet, because absolutely no. Once people are fat adapted, a morning walk would not make you probably sick and queasy. If you've been fasting clean for a long time and you're pretty sure you're fat adapted, I wouldn't think a morning walk would make you sick and queasy. Because I could do anything-- I mean, okay, that's me. I'm talking about myself. But just from the hundreds of thousands of group members that say the same thing. Once you're adapted-- When people I interview for Intermittent Fasting Stories, they talk about how, once they're adapted, they just keep doing the things in the fasted state and they feel great, but it's during the adjustment process, because feeling sick and queasy is a sign of low blood sugar, which means your body has nothing to fuel you. And so, your body is not accessing a fuel source during your walk for whatever reason your blood sugar crashes, you feel sick and queasy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I was going to say it's ironic because oftentimes I feel if we get questions about how do I deal with hunger during the fast? One of my suggestions is actually do something like go on a walk because normally, it usually has the opposite effect.

Gin Stephens: Well, it pushes you to that fat burning, it gets you there if you're right on the edge. Because if I'm having a lull during the day, a momentary feeling of, “Ugh,” I just will pay attention to it for a minute and then usually right after that, bam. I hit the really good part.

Melanie Avalon: So, I actually have a suggestion that's way out there. I am really, really becoming more and more convinced of the power of things like breathwork, especially for things like nausea or feeling sick or queasy or hunger because we don't just get energy from food. We get it from food, light, oxygen, breathing. And they've done studies. It's fascinating. They've done studies on athletes, and the percent increase in energy that they can get from breathwork is very impressive.

So, for example, when you are actually doing physical activity to generate energy, the process of actually creating energy, which is called ATP molecules, that involves something called aerobic dissimilation. And aerobic dissimilation creates about 30 times more energy, ATP molecules, when there's oxygen versus when there's not oxygen. And they found in studies that they can substantially increase performance with breathwork. The reason I'm saying this is if you're struggling with-- your body doesn't seem to be fueling adequately with your activity, I would maybe suggest trying some breathwork techniques before and potentially after. I'll put a link in the show notes to Wim Hof’s new book that's coming out because he has a lot of exercises in there for this specifically.

Also, you can tie it in with like a mindset shift. So, maybe if you can see your morning walk not as something that's going to make you hungry, but it's something that is actually tapping into your fat burning. The power of the mind is very powerful. And we've seen studies on this, like when people are doing exercise, if they think they are burning more calories, they lose more weight, like they burn more calories. So, if you can see the walk as tapping into your fat-burning that might actually be effective.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I believe the power of that. I talked about some of those studies in Fast. Feast. Repeat., where people were told that this is all the exercise you need in a day, like hotel workers, just the group that was told this was great exercise, lost weight. The group that wasn't told that, didn't. I mean, your mind is amazing.

Melanie Avalon: The mindset is all covered in Wim Hof’s new book too.

Gin Stephens: I can't wait to read it.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you to read it. I think I'm really excited that you're excited to read it.

Gin Stephens: Well, I think he's cool. He's a little wacky, right?

Melanie Avalon: Have you heard him talk?

Gin Stephens: I don't think I have because you know I don’t listen to things.

Melanie Avalon: I know you don't listen to things. But the interview I did with him, maybe you’ll listen to it. He'll be talking like normal and then he'll just get so excited, passionate, and just start basically screaming and talking about changing the world. And you're just like, “Oh, my gosh, what is happening?”

Gin Stephens: I can't wait to read it. He seems like an amazing guy.

Melanie Avalon: He really, really is. I would hands down get that book. I honestly want to be everybody read this and just use it to deal with all the things that you're struggling with, because it's just a really great reframe for what we experience. That said, if it doesn't mess with your circadian rhythm, you could have some coffee. That might help suppress appetite, tea. Also, breath work side of things. I've mentioned this before, but I am loving, loving my Komuso Shift’s necklace. It's a necklace that you wear, and you breathe in through your nose and then out through it, and it forces you to extend your exhale. So, it basically forces you into breathwork technique that is calming and just really beneficial for the body. Especially if you have the urge, like munch, you want something in your mouth. It's nice because it's literally something that you can put to your mouth. But, yeah, I would encourage-- like Gin said, we don't know how long she's been doing it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that would be something I would wonder because it just sounds like she's not fat adapted.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, definitely. And also, she doesn't talk at all about what she's eating in general. So, that could also be adjusted, but we don't know. Gin, do you have other thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that was it.

Melanie Avalon: All righty. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get Gin's new book, Fast. Feast. Repeat., in stores, everywhere. You can join my Facebook groups, IF Biohackers and Lumen Lovers and Biosense Biohackers, got two of those. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. You can follow me on Twitter, I'm @melanieavalon and Gin is @ginstephens. I think that's it. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it, and I will talk to you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, I just realized what next week is. Big things are on the horizon.

Gin Stephens: Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Talk to you then.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts: Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 178 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 178 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am doing great. I got some really good news this week. You already know it, that Fast. Feast. Repeat., is coming to Targets in America, the Target stores, in November.

Melanie Avalon: That's so exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is so exciting. They're having like a specialized wellness push because I guess for the holidays. Anyway, it's really hard to get into Target, so I'm very, very excited to be able to walk into Target and see Fast. Feast. Repeat. right there. Also, yesterday, I don't know if you saw this, I posted it on Facebook and on Instagram, but I was at the mall. I was looking for some shoes. By the way, I don't understand styles. I'm 51, I just want some dark brown leather flip-flops. I had some that were great, and a dog chewed them up at my friend's house. And so, I've been trying to find another pair. Apparently, the shade of dark brown that I'm looking for is not in style. Everything is like light brown and nude and cork. I don't know. Anyway, side note. While I was at the mall, I went to the Barnes & Noble and signed all of the copies of Fast. Feast. Repeat., that they had.

Melanie Avalon: Did you do it secretly?

Gin Stephens: No, I didn't do it secretly because--

Melanie Avalon: Did you ask them if you could sign?

Gin Stephens: I did.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you did. What'd they say?

Gin Stephens: They had five on the shelf and I went and-- this girl who worked there and I'm like, “Hey, I'm the author. Can I sign these books?” She's like, “I'm not sure. Let me check.” I'm like, “Okay. Go check.” [laughs] I thought they might say no at first. I was like, “All right.”

Melanie Avalon: And what they say?

Gin Stephens: Well, the manager came over. And he was like, “Of course, and we'll put these stickers on them that say signed copy.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Gin Stephens: Which, of course, is what I wanted them to do because then people can tell it's a signed copy. But what was fun is he told me they've had to reorder several times and that it was selling really well.

Melanie Avalon: That's really exciting.

Gin Stephens: That people were coming in and asking for it, so yeah, that made me so happy. Fast. Feast. Repeat., check your Barnes & Noble, and then in November, check your Targets.

Melanie Avalon: Now, I feel like-- because when they release mine in Barnes & Noble at the beginning, they had it featured like on the centerpieces where they feature the books, they had a featured, I should have done that. I should have asked if I could sign. I just went in secretly and bought it and didn't tell anybody. And then, since then, I just walk in secretly and sign it and runaway, like I've done something wrong.

Gin Stephens: But I just felt like it would be fun and so I did it, and it was fun, and also weird. It felt weird.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's exciting.

Gin Stephens: It was. That was a lot of fun. So, what's up with you? Anything new?

Melanie Avalon: Well, you know this, but I interviewed Wim Hof.

Gin Stephens: Very cool.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my goodness. Listeners, you guys know I talk about my obsession with cold exposure. We're going to get Gin on board someday.

Gin Stephens: We're not. We're not going to get to Gin onboard.

Melanie Avalon: Wim Hof is known as The Iceman and he climbed Mount Everest in shorts. He holds 26 world records. He's insane. There's actually an episode on Netflix right now on Gwyneth Paltrow’s shows. I think it's called like Goop Lab series.

Gin Stephens: Something like that. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Did you watch the fasting mimicking diet episode she did?

Gin Stephens: I did not.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, she had Valter Longo on for one of the episodes. She had an episode with Wim, and he has the cold exposure, breathwork techniques, which I've also started doing. Oh my goodness, Gin, how long can you hold your breath?

Gin Stephens: Probably not long enough.

Melanie Avalon: If you do Wim Hof technique breathing, you magically can hold your breath eons, and it's not even a big deal. I held it two and a half minutes, like it wasn't even a big deal.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I can't do that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you can. If you do the breathwork. You think you can't, but you can. And then, it's funny because you're totally fine and then also you'll feel like you're dying. And that's when you take your breath in. For listeners, it's pretty much the most motivational conversation I think I've probably ever had, because he just wants to change the world. And he's so passionate, and he's doing all the research. That's what's really unique is, they're doing clinical studies on all of his methods and they're finding incredible things. The first time they've shown in scientific studies that you can modulate or control your autonomic response to things, like your immune system that they thought couldn't be controlled by the mind. They found that with his method, the participants can.

Gin Stephens: Wow. So, does he have like one book that you recommend?

Melanie Avalon: He doesn't have any books yet.

Gin Stephens: Oh, he has one that's in the works, doesn't he?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's what I brought him on for.

Gin Stephens: Okay, he's got the same literary agent that you and I do.

Melanie Avalon: I forgot about that. Yeah, he does.

Gin Stephens: He's represented by the same agency. Love it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I remember I tried to get connected to him through them and they were like he's really busy traveling. So then, I got connected in another way. His book, which is coming out, it's called The Wim Hof Method: Activate Your Full Human Potential. Guys, get this book.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I'm going to. That sounds like one I would love.

Melanie Avalon: It's amazing. It's short. It's great, because it's a great blend of he tells his own story, and it's like personal but then he goes all through the science of the method. There's some people that you feel who truly change the world and I feel he's doing that.

Gin Stephens: As long as I don't have to do cold exposure.

Melanie Avalon: You don't have to, but you might get convinced reading his thing. You might.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we’ll see.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and he told me how I can get a chest freezer and do ice baths in my apartment.

Gin Stephens: Oh my God, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “I want to move to Alaska.” And he's from the Netherlands, he has an accent. He's like, “You can bring Alaska to your home.” And he told me how.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that sounds dangerous. You're like trapped in an ice-cold chest freezer.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I might be thumbs down on that one. I don't know about that.

Melanie Avalon: No, you unplug it. He told me how to do it. You plug it in, you get silicone, you do something with a silicone. You put the water in, you run it for 24 hours to get it cold. And then when you want to use it, you unplug it and then you sit in it. And it's like sitting in Alaska. I am so pumped.

Gin Stephens: I don't even want the cold water that comes out of the faucet, that's too cold.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, gosh. Baby steps. Okay.

Gin Stephens: On that note, let's go to our first question.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so our first question comes from Maria. And she says-- printed it out today. “Hi, Gin and Melanie. First of all, I love listening to your podcasts during my morning walks. I've been picking random ones, but I've probably listened to about 30 in the past few months. During this quarantine time, I have been making some lifestyle changes. And after listening to many podcasts about intermittent fasting, I'm very interested in the benefits of it. I'm not looking to lose weight as I am 5’3" and 122 pounds and this is a healthy weight for me. When I listen to the podcast, I hear that most people have very short eating windows, such as 18:6 or 24. I've tried doing longer fasts but even 16 hours is sometimes hard for me. I've been fasting between 14 and 17 hours depending on how I feel each day.

I wanted to know if a fasting window of 14 to 15 hours is too short to see benefits from fasting. I'm a breakfast eater, so not eating till noon or 1:00 PM has not been working well for me and I usually get hungry around 10:00.”

All right. Thoughts, Gin?

Gin Stephens: That's a great question, Maria. And yes, you can absolutely have benefits from a fast of 14 to 15 hours. I've seen Valter Longo who came up with the fasting mimicking diet. He promotes doing just a 12-hour fast regularly for health benefits. So, 14 to 15 hours, yes, you're not going to get into deep fat-burning state, but you're not trying to. My husband does a loose 16:8-ish. But often, he'll open his window even earlier if he just feels like he needs to eat earlier that day, maybe on the weekend. So, yeah, go with how you feel. I would not hesitate to do a 14- to 15-hour fast if it feels right to you.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. 100% I'm on the same page. And I find it a little bit ironic because, and Gin mentioned this, but some big fasting proponents actually advocate, especially for women doing more consistently a shorter fast, be it 12 to 16 hours or so. My only question is, Gin, what do you think are the implications that she does find it harder? Do you think that indicates that she's not adapting to fasting? Or do you think it just means that maybe a longer fasting window isn't appropriate for her?

Gin Stephens: Yes, that went through my head. I don't think she has to force it, though. So, I didn't know that that really mattered to her. But she gets hungry around 10:00 because that's when she's used to eating and she's not getting into that deep fat-burning state. But since her goal is really just to maintain, she could push through and get there, but to what end?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my only question is, is there not some adaptation that has happened?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, if she wanted to lose weight, then I would tell her to push through that. She's probably getting hungry right at that moment where her body would be making the transition into fat burning and so she would need to push through so that that would happen, but she's not trying to do that.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. We don't often get questions where people do want to maintain-- they're not looking to lose weight, but they're also sort of wanting to fast longer.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but she doesn't want to fast longer. If you are enjoying it, you feel good doing that, do it.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, I agree.

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Adam. And the subject is, When the Liver Runs Out of Glycogen. Adam says, “I've heard different things from different sources on what happens when your liver runs out of glycogen. They are, one, if you are not fat adapted, then your metabolism slows down instead of your body accessing its fat stores. Two, if your liver runs out when you're exercising and you're not fat adapted, your body will use protein and amino acids to provide energy instead of fat stores. Three, running out of glucose in the liver when you're not exercising will not access amino acids and your body will use fat stores. Four, exercise at the end of a fast empties your liver and actually trains your body to be fat adapted. I guess my main concern is the point about your metabolism slowing down if you are not fat adapted. That source said you needed to do a low-carb diet to get fat adapted first.

Then, my secondary concern is your body using amino acids and possibly breaking down muscle during a workout, if not fat adapted. Do you guys have any insight on this? Thank you.”

Melanie Avalon: All right. This is great-- I like the different questions from Adam. We actually have a question from Beth as well, which also talks about glycogen. So, I might go ahead and read that and then maybe we can just do a breakdown of all of this, especially because I've been studying this a lot recently. So, I'm going to go and read Beth's question. Her subject is Glycogen, and she said, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. Love your podcast. I look forward to it every week. The dogs get a little longer walk when a new one loads. I've been doing IF for a little over a year. Love it, will not go back.

I do have one question. I'm also a runner and a biker. When I first started IF, my workouts struggled a bit, I'm not sure what happened, but I finally got over it. Honestly, when I started IF, I was probably lower carbs and eating cleaner. Then, I started to eat less clean in my window and had more endurance, but my weight loss stalled. I feel better when I eat cleaner which results in fewer carbs, but my running suffers. I wonder if it has something to do with my glycogen stores. I was listening to one of my favorite nutritionists, and she promotes clean eating and also likes IF but doesn't solely promote it.

Anyway, she was talking about glycogen stores and once your body uses those up, it will start to burn fat. She mentioned especially if you exercise, you may need a few more carbs for glycogen stores. I wanted your thoughts on this, any advice? I don't know if there's any way to know how many carbs to have enough glycogen to not struggle running, is this even how it works? I won't stop IF and I won't stop running. But I would like to do both, but still lose even more pounds with better eating. Thanks in advance. I'm so thankful to my friend who introduced me to this lifestyle. Beth.”

I don't know why I'm so obsessed with glycogen but I am. I literally, for fun, just read about glycogen stores and what's going on there. And I think one of the things I'm so fascinated about is there's this prevailing idea that the way things work is you deplete glycogen and then you enter ketosis. I don't know, that's the way it works. I think that goes back to a study from like 1980 was where that was first posited and that's what's mostly referenced. There's not a lot of literature looking a little bit deeper at that. And I recently found a study that literally made my life, granted it was in rodents, but I think it's still pretty fascinating, and maybe we can learn some things from it, and it might question our ideas about what might be going on with glycogen and fat burning and ketosis and all that stuff.

Because basically, in the study, they had four groups of rats. They had aged rats and young rats. Then, they had a group of aged rats on a standard diet, but doing time-restricted eating, so doing intermittent fasting. They had rats on a ketogenic diet doing intermittent fasting. And then, they also had a control group as well, which I think was just eating a normal diet throughout the day. And then, they had young rats, same thing. So, young rats doing a standard diet with carbs and intermittent fasting. Young rats following a ketogenic diet with intermittent fasting and then like control rats. They did a set of different studies, comparing all of these.

But what was fascinating was, they basically used the glucose ketone index, that's the GKI, as a marker for really entering a ketogenic state and so that's just looking at blood sugar levels compared to ketone levels. They found a lot of really fascinating things. They found that on ketogenic diets, it reduced overall glycogen storage capacity. So, the rats on ketogenic diets doing intermittent fasting, they could hold total less glycogen total.

Gin Stephens: Is that saying they didn't refill it as much?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, but the actual-- if their liver could hold X amount of glycogen, it was less than the amount of glycogen that the rats that were not doing ketogenic diets could hold. And then, what was interesting though, was it wasn't affected by fasting or not fasting. So, when they were fed and when they were fasting, they had lower total glycogen levels compared to the group that was eating the carb-inclusive diet with fasting. So, it was lower levels at the moment compared to the other group, but the capacity of the glycogen was less. Basically, they weren't holding as much glycogen-- Actually, yes, what you kind of just said, they weren't necessarily refilling it, but it was staying steady and it wasn't getting affected by going in and out of fasting. Now, I feel like I'm going all over the place, but it does speak to some of the questions we just had about-- because I read before that when people are keto adapted, they don't necessarily need glycogen as much for fueling exercise and stuff like that. The muscles become fat adapted, but then also their glycogen levels aren't really involved in their energy and output and things like that.

One of their quotes was they found that ketosis prevents fasting-induced liver glycogen depletion. So, in other words, when these rats were following ketogenic diets and doing fasting, when they went into fasting, it wasn't necessarily depleting that glycogen, they were maintaining it, which throws a paradigm shift there about how to think about things. For muscle glycogen, there was absolutely no difference between any of the groups, which was really interesting.

So, they found that the glycogen stores only hindered entering ketosis, so only made it harder to enter ketosis for the aged rats following a standard diet with intermittent fasting. The idea there might be that age rats aren't as metabolically flexible and aren't as good about switching in and out of ketosis. So, the age rats on ketogenic diets, the young rats on ketogenic diets, and the young rats on standard diets, all of them doing fasting, their glycogen stores did not really affect how soon and to what extent they entered ketosis. So, I don't know if it's that the fasting was basically making it easy for them to enter ketosis and glycogen wasn't even playing a role as long as they're metabolically flexible, which would be the young rats and then the old rats on ketogenic diets. It really speaks a lot though to metabolic flexibility and this idea that it seems people depending on you, depending on your metabolic flexibility, people can often switch in and out of ketosis, and glycogen might not be playing as big of a role as we think it might be playing. But when there is metabolic dysfunction, which would be indicated with the aged rats on standard diets, even though they were doing interment fasting, then glycogen played a whole lot bigger role.

That said, I think humans, especially when we're not humans in controlled experiments, I think the majority of us are metabolically broken. So, I feel if anything, we're probably more likely going to mirror those aged rats, we might be more dependent on glycogen, being a lever and going in and out of ketosis.

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All right, now back to the show.

Gin Stephens: Have you read Flipping the Metabolic Switch recently?

Melanie Avalon: Not recently.

Gin Stephens: I've got it right here in front of me. And this is Mark Mattson and others. Mark Mattson is the one who did the New England Journal of Medicine article that came out December of 2019 that everyone was talking about. This is a paper that was from October of 2017. This article really is what taught me about glycogen and what happens but if anybody hasn't read it, I would read it. Flipping
the
Metabolic
Switch: Understanding
and
Applying
the
Health
Benefits of Fasting. It's available for free online if you search for it. And I actually have it linked in the back of Fast. Feast. Repeat. But this guy's 100% against the-- some of the things you were just theorizing, Melanie, and it says, the metabolic switch-- This is their definition of the metabolic switch. I'm going to read verbatim.

“The point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted and fatty acids are mobilized, typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.” And then, another section under the “Results and Conclusions,” it says, “Emerging findings suggest that the metabolic switch from glucose to fatty acid-derived ketones represents an evolutionarily conserved trigger point that shifts metabolism from lipid/cholesterol synthesis and fat storage to mobilization of fat through fatty acid oxidation and fatty acid-derived ketones, which serve to preserve muscle mass and function.”

Going to Adam’s point. Adam is correct that before your fat adapted, you might have that issue. But once you're able to tap in and you're able to produce those fatty acid-derived ketones, that's when you preserve your muscle mass and function. So, then it goes on to say, I'm going to quote again, “Thus, IF regimens that induce the metabolic switch have the potential to improve body composition in overweight individuals.” They specifically say that we've got that metabolic switch from glucose to ketones, and they talk about that point being at which the liver glycogen stores are depleted.

I feel like one thing that we sometimes get confused on is whether they have to be depleted to zero. I think that's a point of misunderstanding. There's a point when the liver glycogen is low enough that we start to make the transition. And perhaps we can use the rat study. Tell me if this makes any sense, Melanie, that maybe as you become more metabolically flexible, maybe your body doesn't stash as much away as glycogen anymore in your liver. Your body's better at saying, “No, I'm not going to stash this away in my liver.” I don't know, that's just a theory based on what you said about the rats.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. A lot of things there that you just said-- I'm in agreement with all of that. I'm curious what they're quoting for getting that information about the glycogen specifically. I need to go read what study they're talking about from that. I'm wondering if everybody's referencing the same original source material for that.

Gin Stephens: That's what everyone's understanding is coming from the same because everybody's saying it this way, including Mark Mattson. Here's a big-time-- yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Everything that you just said is actually in agreement with everything that I was just pointing out that when we're fat adapted, we're switching into burning fats because-- the sentence you read about emerging research, it wasn't talking about glucose, it was talking about switching to fat burning.

Gin Stephens: The whole point of this journal article is the metabolic switch is that point where your liver glycogen is depleted enough for you to switch over. That's what they're calling the metabolic switch, flipping the metabolic switch. The metabolic switch is defined by them as the point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted, and fatty acids are mobilized. So, it's the point.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and then typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.

Gin Stephens: It sounded like the rat study was saying, “Hey, liver glycogen has nothing to do with it.” And I don't want people to think that's true.

Melanie Avalon: So, the consistency with the study wasn't glycogen stores, it was really the time? So, the fasting time? What Mattson says, and this is what I'm wondering because he says, “The point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted and fatty acids are mobilized typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.” What I'm wondering is, is it citing literature talking about liver glycogen stores being the key, also, it's overlapping with 12 hours being when that happens, when I'm just wondering if maybe it's the time, it's the 12 hours and maybe liver glycogen stores aren't necessarily completely depleted at 12 hours. We often say don't focus on ketones, don't stress about measuring ketones. I think it's the same thing with liver glycogen.

Gin Stephens: Well, oh, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't stress about it at all.

Melanie Avalon: It just seems like the more and more I read and think about this, that the prevailing idea is often that we deplete liver glycogen and then we start burning fat. And those are often lumped together with fasting because fasting is often the method of depleting liver glycogen. What I'm wondering is, maybe we think it's the liver glycogen depletion when it's partially that, but maybe also, or instead actually the fasting time. Because even what Mark Mattson said and I keep reading this, but he says, “The point of negative energy balance at which liver glycogen stores are depleted and fatty acids are mobilized, typically beyond 12 hours after cessation of food intake.” It's a tiny nuance, but I'm wondering if we're focusing on this prevailing theory of liver glycogen depleting when really maybe that metabolic switch is the 12 hours. Maybe that's the metabolic switch. Maybe the metabolic switch isn't the glycogen.

Gin Stephens: I don't think so. I don't think it's time, and that's just because based on my experience and the experiments of so many other people, I actually can tell you when I've had vacations and I can tell I've refilled glycogen to the point that it takes me longer. I can tell some days that switch gets flipped sooner and a lot of it depends on what I ate the day before. So, no, I don't think 12 is the magic number. I think that is an average perhaps for someone who is metabolically flexible. Perhaps, if you're metabolically flexible around hour 12 is probably an average, that would be my hunch. But, no, I don't think it's time dependent. I do think it's energy balance dependent.

Melanie Avalon: My hunch is it might be more time dependent.

Gin Stephens: The reason that I don't think that that's true is just the way I feel differently on different days and I can pinpoint it, based on what I've been doing and how I've been eating.

Melanie Avalon: The other thing is liver glycogen caps at not that much. Usually, estimate is 100 grams, which is 400 calories. Even if you were to go on a crazy vacation, eat 5,000 carbs, it's actually not going to add any more extra liver glycogen. It'll fill muscles if they're not filled. So, there is more glycogen stores in the muscles, but that is reserved for the muscles. That's not going to affect probably your entrance into ketosis. So, you can't eat really more than what your liver glycogen stores allow, even if you go on a crazy, crazy, crazy carb binge. When you run out of glycogen stores in the liver and muscles, the carbs will either be burned off as energy or 2% to 3% up to potentially 10%, but it's probably more like 2% or 3%, will get turned into fat in the liver.

Gin Stephens: Can I interrupt real quick? I think it's a more gradual process than you're implying there because it's not like I go eat week on vacation. And then after day one of eating more, my glycogen is filled. I think just as we deplete it gradually overtime to get to the point where we're getting into ketosis every day, I don't think that you just eat one meal and then, bam, all that goes into glycogen storage. That's the thing. I know that the liver can only hold a certain amount, but I don't think that it refills it all up just from a meal. I've just noticed when I've had a day where I ate more, I'm fine. But it's when I've had several days-- It's like a gradual thing. Just like we have a gradual depletion, we have a gradual refilling.

Melanie Avalon: That's another thing is your liver glycogen stores. The more carbs you eat and long you eat, you can raise that potential to store more. I'm just confused, how does that affect when you would start generating ketones again?

Gin Stephens: Well, the last time I went on a cruise, I could tell it was a few days after being home before I started getting into ketosis during my fast. It took me a few days of being back on my normal fasting schedule. How do I know? Well, because I would need to take naps. I know my body well enough to know. Now, we have this ketone analyzer that you talk to them on your other podcast, and it's been really interesting that I can say, “Ooh, I feel like I'm in ketosis.” And then, I can blow and I'm getting numbers. Whereas I'm like, “Yeah, I can tell I'm not,” like first thing in the morning. But it's not always at the same time. It doesn't always correlate to, “Well, now I'm at 12 hours, I'm going to get a number.” Sometimes, it's earlier than 12 hours, depending on what I ate the day before or how much I ate if I had a short window. Sometimes, it's at 16 hours.

What's fascinating is, I've been doing this so long, I can feel when that metabolic switch is flipped, I feel it. And so, the breath ketone monitor has been great at confirming, like, “Ooh, I feel like the switch is flipped,” and then I'll use it and I'm like, “Yep, there it is.”

Melanie Avalon: So, if you eat a really big carb vacation meal, you think you don't get into ketosis at all the next day?

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, not if I just eat one big carb vacation meal. It takes a few days. Even if I just go away for a weekend and have two days with longer windows or something, it takes me more than just two days before my glycogen is filled up. If I go on cruise for five days, I'm going to come home and I'm going to have to re-deplete glycogen, I can feel it.

Melanie Avalon: So, when you have a big meal of carbs--?

Gin Stephens: I mean I have big, big carb meals every single day.

Melanie Avalon: You don't think it fills up your glycogen?

Gin Stephens: No. I don't think my body just shoves all those carbs into my liver. I think it uses a lot of them for energy because you're eating, your body’s using those carbs for energy. I think my body uses those carbs for energy that I've just eaten. And then, there may be a little bit to go into my glycogen stores, but not all of it.

Melanie Avalon: Because I'm not trying to argue or anything, just the thoughts that I'm having is that, it seems like people have glycogen stores filled or not filled, regardless if they fast like 16 hours, they're probably going to enter ketosis and it's not going to necessarily matter if the night before was keto, or was carbs if they're metabolic flexible. That's what I'm saying.

Gin Stephens: It really just all depends on what your body does with what you eat. And there's so many things your body could do with it depending on exercise and what you're doing.

Melanie Avalon: In these rats, the only group that did have to deplete glycogen completely to enter ketosis was aged rats on high-carb diets. So, presumably metabolically inflexible rats.

Gin Stephens: And again, depleting glycogen completely, I think is the thing that-- Mark Mattson didn't say you have to deplete it completely. You just have to get to the point. And maybe your liver is holding a reserve. It just depends that everybody has a different point. And it depends on how you've built up your fat-burning enzymes. I think there's a lot of factors here.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. What I'm saying is I think it's way more nuanced than the way it's posited because I think the way it's posited is everybody holds X amount of liver glycogen. You deplete liver glycogen, you enter ketosis. When it seems like it's more it depends on metabolic flexibility, depends on how easily your body can switch-- wants to switch to burning ketones, wants to make that switch. And if you are metabolically flexible, if you're doing a ketogenic diet that seems to make it. It seems like you're doing a ketogenic diet, so you're always keto all the time. Your body's not really going by glycogen at all for when it's generating certain amounts of ketones. But when you are eating carbs, if you're metabolically flexible, glycogen might not be playing as much as quite a big of a role in having to hit a certain depletion number before you switch over. But if you're metabolically inflexible, yeah, you've got to go through that, you've got to deplete.

Gin Stephens: I would just really encourage everybody to find that Mark Mattson’s article and read it, Flipping the Metabolic Switch, and dig into that. Dig into their references, go through that, and see what you can come up with yourself. But I do think Adam is correct that if you're not fat adapted, then you could have some issues, but that's the whole point of knowing that you're going to get to the other side of the fad adaption period. That's the whole point of the 28-day FAST Start in Fast. Feast. Repeat., is that your body is learning how to become fat adapted. And that's the part that takes time, and it can take more than 28 days if you're somebody who's very metabolically inflexible. That's just like a ballpark that you should give yourself at least that amount of time for it to happen. But once that switch is flipped, using the wording of Mark Mattson in his paper, that's when you become fat adapted.

The whole point is don't worry so much about what is your level of glycogen, where is it stored. Instead, you want to flip that metabolic switch so that your body can shift fuel sources as needed. And I think that's the only takeaway we really need to worry about. Fast sufficiently so that your body becomes fat adapted and you're able to switch fuel sources as needed to fuel your workout, to fuel your day, tap into your fat stores. I think that's all that matters.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, because I mean that's basically what I was saying is that it's more about the metabolic flexibility. The title of the study that I am referencing is called Metabolic Switching is impaired by aging and facilitated by ketosis independent of glycogen. To that point, what the study actually says, or what they say in their discussion is they say the prevailing theory regarding the initiation of ketogenesis is that ketone body production is triggered once the body depletes its glycogen stores. This glycogen depletion hypothesis likely stems from the body's natural metabolic response to vigorous exercise or longer fasts. It acknowledges that that is the prevailing theory. But then, it's talking about how there seemed to be a lot more-- a few more nuances and factors involved. But for listeners, yeah, we'll put links to all of this in the show notes so you can dive in deep. Like I said, this is just sort of my obsession just because I just feel like it's way more complicated.

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Melanie Avalon: To address Adam’s questions, he says he's heard that when your liver runs out of glycogen, if you're not fat adapted, then your metabolism slows down instead of your body accessing its fat stores. We pretty consistently see that when you run out of glycogen is when that metabolic switch will start to happen. I do think there's an adaptation period where the body is resistant to making that switch in the beginning and it's going to want to make you hungry, make you want to not make that switch. But I wouldn't be worried about your metabolism slowing down per se, especially since a lot of the studies show that the more you do fasting, the metabolism can actually rise. Do you have thoughts about that specific one?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't think we have any specific study exactly, like following someone through the liver glycogen depletion process and measuring their metabolism. But this is all theoretic, anyway.

Melanie Avalon: If there is, it will be like Christmas. I want to read it, please send it to me.

Gin Stephens: That'd be cool. I'd like to read it too. But theoretically, if your liver ran out of glycogen, and you had no more fuel, and your body is not well fueled, that's when your metabolism would start slowing down. But your body is going to find that fat and get adapted pretty darn quick. That's the point of it.

Melanie Avalon: You know what's actually really interesting? I'm reading Cate Shanahan’s Fatburn Fix right now, and I'm getting deeper into it. It's kind of how you have your FAST start and then the purpose of that is to make people metabolically flexible and adapted, you're not focusing on weight loss, it's to make these changes. So, her approach is actually very similar, but a little bit different. So, she has phase one. And the goal of phase one is to reduce these hypoglycemia symptoms because she talks about how-- actually, like Adam’s first point, people who aren't fat-adapted yet, when they do but have liver glycogen, the body just freaks out, it doesn't know what to do and you get hypoglycemia. So, her approach, which also is similar to, Gin, how you have, how to ease in with a ketogenic diet if people want. Don't you do like a ketogenic?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, they can use the low carb, yep, ease-in meals, we call them.

Melanie Avalon: She actually recommends everybody for the phase one. It is so interesting. Unless you don't struggle with hypoglycemia symptoms. So, it's basically the people who do have this metabolic inflexibility, they start with a phase one, which is actually a ketogenic diet rather than fasting. And then, when you don't have hypoglycemia symptoms, you go to phase two, which actually integrates intermittent fasting. This is so interesting. So, it's a different approach than yours, but it's similar and it's speaks to this whole concept of--

Gin Stephens: Of getting adapted. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. When you're metabolically flexible, which is supported, like I said, by that rat study. When you're metabolically flexible and the body is able to switch fuel sources, then it just happens. And glycogen, we might not even necessarily know what's happening specifically there and things might be changing with that. I do want to talk about the second question, which was if your liver runs out when you're exercising and you're not fat adapted, your body will use protein and amino acids to provide energy instead of fat stores. The body breaks down protein for two different reasons from your muscle. One would be for amino acids during catabolic activity. So, if you're breaking down muscle, you're breaking down muscle, like doing resistance training and things like that. Yes, that will break down muscle for amino acids. However, we talked about this actually I think last episode maybe. When you eat, again, you feed, in your feeding in your eating window, that's restored. So, that's not a problem.

I think he's probably more thinking about he says to provide energy. So, yes, the body can turn to protein to create glucose if it's not metabolically flexible, everything I just said, because it has the option. So, if it's not metabolically flexible, you run out of liver glycogen, it can start burning fats, it can start doing ketones, but it also has the option of actually still trying to go the sugar route. And to do that, it will break down muscle into amino acids to create blood sugar, which is not something we want. But that is why I think a lot of people get stuck in that phase. Like I just said with Cate Shanahan’s, talking about people having hypoglycemia problems. The solution to that is becoming fat adapted, and then it shouldn't as much be a problem because your body will be switching to fats rather than trying to make carbs from amino acids.

Gin Stephens: Also, one other thing I thought you were going to say and you didn't. When you're exercising, you can get glycogen stored from your muscle as well. There's glycogen stored there that can fuel your muscles.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's actually the primary fuel for them.

Gin Stephens: Right. Running out of glucose in the liver, he mentions, but you've got some glycogen in your muscles already too.

Melanie Avalon: So, locally, the glycogen in your muscles will be feeding those muscles. The hypoglycemia symptoms will probably come in from the liver, that would be the thing that's doing that. So, that process of like, “Oh, let's break down muscle to create blood sugar,” that would probably be liver dependent, I'm guessing.

And then, his thing about exercise at the end of a fast empties your liver and actually trains your body to be fat adapted. I do think we see pretty well a lot of people when they do exercise at the end of a fast, I think a lot of people do find benefit from it, especially if they're struggling to get fat adapted because-- I don’t know. I'm not talking chronic cardio high-intensity endurance for a long time. But slow-moving exercise at the end of a fast, I think, would be a great way because if it's slow moving, it's telling your body, “Hey, we need long-term fuel here.” So, it's not going to be stimulating, like asking for quick blood sugar. I think slower movement, exercise type at the end of a fast like walking, yoga, things like that might be more supportive of making that switch.

Actually, to that point, one other thing I forgot to mention from that rat study was they actually found--and this is something that users of the Lumen device that I've talked about before, which is like a breath carb analyzer, have been finding. They often are finding that exercise during the fast or if they're doing a ketogenic diet, seems to switch them over to carb burning. And this study with the rats, they found that the ketogenic fasting rats when they injected them with epinephrine-- so, basically a stress response, to mimic exercise, the ketogenic rats actually released more blood sugar in response. They had a higher blood glucose response from exercise, which was really, really fascinating. They argue that that show that the rats were more metabolically flexible because they could generate more glucose on-demand from adrenaline aka stress or exercise. I don't know how I feel about that conclusion. It was really, really fascinating regardless.

Lastly, we didn't answer yet, Beth’s question about, “Do you need more carbs to fuel your exercise for glycogen stores?” So, there have been a lot of studies on people on-- more on, I've seen studies on ketogenic diets and athletes tend to adapt eventually to the ketogenic diet, and then they're not dependent on glycogen during exercise. Their glycogen stores typically don't really change that much during exercise because they're fat adapted. If you're not fat-adapted, you likely might need more carbs. And then a lot of high performing athletes just find that honestly, especially if it's like high intensity that they just need more carbs. And I think a lot of people, especially they've been doing ketogenic diets for a long time with fasting, maybe their energy's not quite there, they often find that adding in more carbs to their eating window really does help their performance.

Beth was talking about how she feels like she can't have the best of both worlds. Like if she brings in carbs, her endurance increases, but she doesn't lose the weight. I would suggest, Beth, if you haven't, trying a low-fat, high-carb diet, you might find that with intermittent fasting, I think that might give you the best of both worlds where you're going to be able to fuel that exercise with enough glycogen and then not having the fat with it, you might find that you lose weight.

Gin Stephens: I also wanted to point out that, Beth said her weight loss stalled. She said she was lower carb and then started to eat, what she said was “less clean,” and she had more endurance. Basically, she was lower carb, added some more carbs in, had more endurance. And then, she says my weight loss stalled. I think that she might possibly have had some confusion there with her weight because if you reintroduce carbs, your body can retain excess water with the extra carbs. As you have more glycogen, your body holds water with the glycogen. And also, when you're having more endurance, maybe she's building muscle, but I think you can't just strictly go by what the scale is saying.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Actually, I'm so glad you brought that up. I missed that. Also, she's correlating that she eats higher carbs which are less clean, and her weight loss stalls. It might not be the carbs making your weight loss stall, it might be the less clean aspect of it.

Gin Stephens: It's hard to know what she means by that and how much of a different change there was. But just we know that reintroducing carbs, whether they're “clean” or not, can lead to water retention, and it's not a bad thing and it's not fat gain, and it can make the scale go up. So, you can be like, “Oh my gosh, I'm gaining weight.” When really, you're not gaining fat. And it feels like your weight loss is stalling but really, it's just you have a different water balance than you had before.

Melanie Avalon: It could be that when she was eating clean, she wasn't having inflammation from the foods. And if she’s starting to eat these “less clean foods,” we don't know what they are, but inflammation can play a massive role. So, if you're taking in inflammatory foods, I would hardcore encourage you, Beth-- You said that when you eat cleaner that naturally makes you eat less carbs. You can eat high carb "clean,” not hard. Fruits are high in carbs, sweet potatoes, starches, rice. I would at 100% like dying to know. I'd love for you to try a “clean” especially since that seems to work for you a “clean,” whole foods, high-carb approach. See what happens. And if that doesn't work for low-fat version of that. So, things to experience.

I think a lot of people adapt to exercise with low carb diets, but some just never do. And they find that when they bring in the carbs, they're able to. And then, if you want to lose weight, looking at those types of carbs and what you're eating, and whether or not you're eating fat can play a huge, huge role.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And as you're switching carbs in and out, I would really use progress photos to see-- Somebody today in one of the Facebook groups posted a photo. And she's like, “I've only lost one pound and I'm so discouraged.” And she posted side-by-side photos, and it was like incredible the difference between the two. So, the scale doesn't tell the true story. If you thought you'd only lost one pound, that would be really discouraging. But you looked at her photos and you're like, “Man, look at how--” it was the same shirt she had in the other photo, and it was like loose as opposed to being skin tight. It was incredible the difference between the two photos. She's like, "What am I doing wrong?” What you're doing wrong is letting the scale be the Debbie Downer here. Sorry if your name is Debbie. I don't know. I feel bad for everybody named Debbie because when I say Debbie Downer-- [laughs] Don't let your scale be your downer when you're seeing results somewhere else.

Melanie Avalon: That's such a great point. All right. So, a lot there.

Gin Stephens: This is from Jessica. And her subject is Daylight Savings Time Changes. I would like to actually just propose let's just quit doing that. Let's just leave the time where it is. I don't like the switching. The switching drives me crazy. All right.

She says, “Hello, Gin and Melanie. I'm a huge fan of all your podcasts and listen to you weekly. I started IF in January of this year, and then found Delay, Don't Deny in March. Since then, I've joined all the Facebook groups, read all your books, and truly immersed myself in learning as much as I can about the benefits of fasting daily. Since January, I've lost 30 pounds and dropped from a size 14 pushing to a 16 to a size 10. I've also seen a dramatic decrease in inflammation and IBS symptoms.

My husband has also joined me on this journey, dropping from a size 40 waist to a 36. And together, we have adopted a 24, one-meal-a-day pattern and love it. This is truly the lifestyle we want to live long term.

As I stated before, I started my IVF journey in the winter. So, my question may seem a bit silly, but I'm wondering if you have any advice for successfully transitioning through the time change to the fall, winter seasons. I'm particularly worried about having less outdoor time and less sunlight hours, as these have been my go-to escapes while fasting.

I'm having a hard time envisioning what one meal a day will look like in the colder months. Right now, I love taking my Topo Chico outside and sipping on it throughout my lunch break, but that won't be as appealing when it's a rainy Oregon day outside. I always get a bit sad when it's dark in the morning and dark again by 6:00 PM. In the past, that sadness has been buffered by hearty foods and delicious beverages, and I'm nervous about falling into old habits. Thank you for taking the time to ease the mind of a worrier and obsessive planner. Jessica.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Jessica. So, this is a great question. And two big things we can tackle, the practical approaches to working with the time change and stuff like that, and then the mental aspect of everything she talks about. Okay, just from a light perspective, Jessica, get a Joovv if you don't have a Joovv. Because regulating your circadian rhythm I think is so important and one of the nice things about it is I consciously regulate my circadian rhythm every single day regardless of the time change or how light works in the world. I always am hacking it at home myself. So, in the morning, bright light exposure, I have a Daylight, like high-lux device that outputs really bright light. Those are often used to treat things like seasonal affective disorder. I'll put a link in the show notes to the one that I have. It's called Daylight.

And then, I run my Joovv devices for ambient lighting in the morning and evening, so that's red and near-infrared light. So, red is the type of light naturally found in the rising and setting sun. So, when you have it in the morning and in the evening, you're mimicking that rising and setting feeling regardless of what it actually is outside. I know most people who turn to Joovv for like skin health or muscle recovery or the metabolic benefits, honestly for the mood, it's my thing. I can't even express my gratitude I have for it.

And then, on top of that, I know this is controversial, but I would actually really, really suggest in the darker months getting a membership at a tanning bed. You want to get the UVB beds. So, those actually typically tend to be the cheaper beds because that's the wavelength that does make people burn. But it's the wavelength that is going to stimulate vitamin D production in your skin. And I'm talking about going for a minute. I'm not talking like-- you're not going in there to get tanned. You're just going in there to get some natural vitamin D exposure. You can weigh the cost benefits. I know skin cancer is a real thing, I don't take it lightly. But I think for a lot of people, especially if you're struggling with vitamin D levels, especially if you're struggling with mood, having exposure to UV light to generate vitamin D in your skin, especially in darker months, can be huge. So, I get a package in the winter. Proceed with caution. I'm not doctor, but I do really, really suggest that. I have some other things, but Gin, did you want to say some things?

Gin Stephens: Well, I was just going to say to Jessica or anybody else who is in a similar situation, a lot of people started fasting in January, especially after intermittent fasting was everywhere in December after Mark Mattson’s article came out in New England Journal of Medicine and then everyone was talking about intermittent fasting everywhere. So, I'm sure there's a lot of people who started right at the same time. I want you to just stop worrying right now, everybody who started at the same time. You will just gradually find that you start to crave different things, you will find that you start to just-- it'll happen. It happens gradually, just as the seasons change gradually.

For example, one day I'm drinking my San Pellegrino, and then the next day I'm like, “Ooh, I think I would like a hot mug of water,” a mug of hot water. We call it [unintelligible [00:59:31]. Have I told you that, Melanie, have you heard me call it that? Somebody in the group made that up. I can't remember who. I put it in Fast. Feast. Repeat., because I love it so much. So, you'll have a new routine, Jessica, instead of having Topo Chico outside, you'll have a mug of hot water and you'll be somewhere cozy. And it'll feel great because Christmas Carols will be on or something. You'll just have something to look forward to it.

Yeah, you probably will have more hearty foods, but I find my body craves those. I have a shift in what I want. When we stop the podcast for today, I'm going to go and break my fast, and I'm going to have-- I have some broccoli, and I have some hummus. I'm going to have that. It's going to be delicious. But if it were December, I would probably not be craving cold broccoli and hummus. I would want something maybe cozier, like you said, maybe a mug of soup or something like that. So, you'll make the shift. It'll happen gradually as the weather changes. I promise you, you can do it.

Melanie Avalon: You could also get super-duper excited about winter like I am. No, guys, it's funny, I have the opposite response. I'm like winter is the time to get in shape, get that cold therapy, get those longevity genes going, make your body stronger. Honestly, we could have a complete reframe here.

Gin Stephens: I'm just so sad when I have to put on pants, shoes.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. It's so funny how we're all so different. I literally dread the coming of summer and love the coming of winter. And then, people have the complete opposite response.

Gin Stephens: It's true.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all of the stuff that we like, that's at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram, we're @ifpodcast. I'm at @melanieavalon. Gin is at @ginstephens. Oh, and I forgot to mention. The Lumen thing I mentioned, I started a group for people who have that device or who have a Biosense Ketone Analyzer and that is called Lumen Lovers and Biosense Biohackers. You can also join my Facebook group, IF Biohackers. Anything else, Gin, you'd like to put out there? Get Fast. Feast. Repeat. at Target?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, well, in November, don't go out and get it yet because it's not there, although you can order it online from Target. They have it online, but anywhere that sells books I think you can get it in their online, but in the actual store, you can wait till November. I'm so excited.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, talk to you then. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 176 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that what you put on your skin gets direct access to your bloodstream and in your body can do a lot of detrimental things? So, while you may be fasting clean, you may at the same time be infusing your body with endocrine disrupters, which can mess with your hormones, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight and even carcinogens. In Europe, they've banned thousands of these compounds found and conventional skincare and makeup, and the US has banned less than 10. In fact, most conventional lipstick for example is high in lead. And the half-life of lead in the body can be up to 30 years. That means every time you put on some lipstick, you might be putting some lead into your bones, which might not leave for three decades. This is a big deal. Thankfully, there's an easy all-encompassing answer.

There's a company called Beauty Counter, and they were founded on a mission to make skincare and makeup products that are safe for your skin. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to not burden your body and support your skin health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd like to learn more about safe beauty and also get a ton of have amazing discounts and free things from me, definitely get on my Clean Beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. Not sure which Beauty Counter products to try? I also just made a whole series of online quizzes to match you to your perfect product. Those are at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. So, here's the fasting clean inside and out. All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode #176 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, if I sound tired, it's because I've just been on hold for an hour and a half with a company trying to get a product returned. So, I'm tired. Thank goodness for intermittent fasting or I would have needed like a couple meals and snacks in there.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know. That's when you really know.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: When things like that do happen, and you're doing fasting, it's like the complete opposite. You're focused and-- I don't know, it's very helpful.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's true. Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Is it resolved?

Gin Stephens: Well, no, but they're going to get to the bottom of it and send me an email. I'm like, “Okay, we'll see.”

Melanie Avalon: Our modern world of online delivery.

Gin Stephens: Here's the only thing I would like to say, I'm not going to mention any companies. But if you're ever shopping on one company, and this is not Amazon, it's a different one. So, not Amazon. If you're ever shopping on one company and it is their platform, but it is coming from another company but through their platform, do not do it. Go straight to the second company, do not order it through the other person. Because if you have a problem, neither company will-- They're like, “Oh, sorry, you need to talk to them. You need talk to them.” They're like, “Oops, that's them.” They're like, “Oops," Anyway, I got switched back and forth a whole bunch of times.

Melanie Avalon: It's actually like on Amazon ordering directly--

Gin Stephens: From a third-party seller?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: The good thing though is Amazon is really good about handling it.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I was going to say. They'll take care of you if the other company refuses to deal with it.

Gin Stephens: Yes, but this has just been very frustrating. So, the company that it's going to come from is who I would suggest you start with. Learned a very important lesson. I mean it's taken forever, so it's going to be fine. It's still this one bathroom. All this goes back to that one bathroom that we've been remodeling since January.

Melanie Avalon: Is this a guest bathroom?

Gin Stephens: It's a guest bathroom. Thank goodness. Although, funny story, the master bathroom is also unusable. So, we live in a four-bathroom house. And right now, we're showering in the other guest bathroom on the other side of the main floor because the people that lived in our house bought very fancy fixtures all the time. They didn't go to Home Depot and Lowe's and buy, I don't know, Delta faucets. They got super fancy faucets that you get through a designer that cost a bazillion dollars. But also, did you know that faucets and fixtures are not interchangeable. If our faucet was leaking in our master shower, you can't just swap it out. You have to get the same exact brand inside the wall because they have separate fixture attachments. I don't think I'm explaining it right. But yes.

Melanie Avalon: That makes sense. That's upsetting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, all the plumbers that have been coming, they're like, “We don't even know what brand this is," but you're going to have to dig it out and start over with. So, we can't shower in our master bathroom either because it's all disconnected. They're going to have to cut the tile, cut out the connection, and they're going to have to redo that. And then, they put this plate over it. So, hods, the cut they had to make. So, we're 50% in the bathroom department at the Stephens house, but thank goodness, we have extras, so it's really not a big deal. I'm getting exercise walking to the other side of the house for all my showers.

Melanie Avalon: That's true.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Anyway, eventually, actually, you're never finished in a house. I was going to say eventually we'll be done, but we won't. There'll be another project and another and another. That's just houses.

Melanie Avalon: I feel it's also 2020, a lot of people doing home projects and things like that.

Gin Stephens: It's really true. We had an architect come and draw up a screen porch edition and we've got a builder lined up. We have actually got two that are going to submit bids to us. And it's been two weeks, and we haven't even heard back from either of them. I think people are doing a lot of home remodeling right now because they're like, “If I'm going to be home, it's going to have to be amazing.” It'll all be done, so we're in good shape. I'm not complaining.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, all of my projects have been just going through all the stuff for my life. When quarantine-type stuff started, I was like, “Oh, in a month, I'll have gone through everything.” And still, here we are, I'm still doing it. So, it feels good, though.

Gin Stephens: What do you mean?

Melanie Avalon: I have so much memories, like photos and papers that I wanted to go through and throw out and make into scrapbooks, and then stuff from childhood. Just go through everything and try to cleanse my life. My habit now that I do every night that feels so good is, I only take about 15 minutes but I sit down, I turn on my Netflix, I watch something and I scrapbook, and I turn off all social media. And it feels so good. Feels really good. I recommend scrapbooking. You don't like scrapbooking though.

Gin Stephens: No.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: I don't. I do recommend putting aside social media, it's harder for me with coordinating the large groups. Because even though I have fabulous moderators, they're amazing, sometimes they have questions for me. I do sleep, so they figure it out. They're awesome. But if I'm awake, I'm not too far from social media just because I feel I should be accessible to them.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, that's the way I am pretty much 24/7 with the exception of, I was like, “I'm just going to take this time and I'm just not, and I'm going to scrapbook.” Actually, really the reason I like scrapbooking is a lot of people are like, “Oh, you should color,” or “You should do something.” But I always feel I need to be productive or creating something. So, I can't just watch the TV. I have to make something. I feel like I was productive.

Gin Stephens: See, I can. I can just watch TV. But I put my phone to the side. Every night, Chad and I watch TV together. We watch one episode of something and whatever series we're working our way through. I put the phone down, although Messenger still pops up if I need to chat with the moderators, but I don't moderate the groups unless there's like an emergency. A Facebook emergency, but other than that, yeah, I do put it aside. I can just sit and watch television.

Melanie Avalon: I wish I could. It's a goal.

Gin Stephens: Well, I can't listen to things on audio. So, we're all different, and I think that's okay. I have no goal to change.

Melanie Avalon: Well, with audio, I do other things during it. That's my problem, is I need to be-- I'm like addicted to multitasking.

Gin Stephens: See, I prefer to focus on one thing. I think that just explained a lot right there. I don't like multitasking.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I love it.

Gin Stephens: Whatever I'm doing, I am engaged in that.

Melanie Avalon: The only time I'm not multitasking is probably when I'm doing these shows, honestly. Yeah, doing these episodes is a relief because I don't multitask during it and I just take a moment.

Gin Stephens: Well, maybe if you realize the multitasking is stressing you out, you could try to focus on one thing at a time.

Melanie Avalon: It's the complete opposite.

Gin Stephens: It sounded like you were saying it was a relief to not be multitasking.

Melanie Avalon: Well, yes and no. I love multitasking, and it makes me feel good. Then, I feel I shouldn't be. So then, I won't, but then I want to. So, the best for me is just except that I like multitasking, but then also take these moments where I'm not multitasking to balance it out, like this show, for example. So, yeah. Can I share a really quick PSA?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, as you guys know, Gin and I are not fans of measuring things like ketones to evaluate your state of ketosis, especially urinary ketone strips, because we'd rather you focus on the practical implementation of the fast and not whether or not your ketones are a certain level. That's been the messaging since day one, and I still stand by that. That said, for those people who are interested in doing a really deep dive into measuring their state of ketosis because that actually at the same time is also a really big passion of mine. I think it's actually very incredible and valid, if you are the type, that's your goal. It's not about the fasting. It's not about the lifestyle. It's because you're trying to literally hack something in your life with a ketogenic diet, whether it's like a health condition or something specific like that.

The reason I'm saying all of this is I recently had Trey Suntrup from a company called Biosense. They make the ketone breath analyzer, which their studies show, it's pretty comparable to what you can learn from a blood analyzer, like pricking your finger, with some exceptions. You'd have to listen to episode for the whole nuance. The reason I'm saying all this is, I'm actually really big fan of that, I have a Biosense device. And I realized after releasing that episode that a lot of people thought that I personally think you should never measure ketones, which is not at all what I personally think. So, this is just a really brief PSA that if that is of interest to you, I support it. Melanie does. Come into my community, my separate community from this show for that, so I'll put a link in the show notes to the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast episode where I talked about it, and also my Facebook group which is IF Biohackers. So, if that's of interest to you, definitely join me there. I just wanted to share that really quick PSA.

For normal people, not normal people, but if you're not the crazy biohacking, wanting to measure the ketones, like that whole thing, just keep on keeping on. Don't stress about ketones please. And please, please, don't get urinary ketones ships because we could talk for an hour about why those are very misleading. For people who are new to the show, new to this whole world, basically, when you first start entering into ketosis through intermittent fasting or a ketogenic diet or something like that, at the beginning, your body starts creating a lot of ketones. And there's actually three types of ketones, which is what I learned in that episode, you've got to listen to it. Your body starts creating a lot of them and in the initial beginning, it's not quite adept at using them because it's just not, and a lot of them get excreted through the urine.

So, at the beginning, people will often see something on their urinary test strips if they're using those, but as you continue into ketosis, it all changes. Like I said, there's actually three types of ketones, BHB, acetoacetate, and acetone. And all of that gets nuanced and changes around the more you get ketogenic and your body gets adapted to fasting. So, things are basically really complicated and it's very helpful to have a very comprehensive understanding if it's something that you do want to explore, which is again, why I wanted to have that episode on my other show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, any comments on that, Gin?

Gin Stephens: No. I think that was great. And thank you for clearing all that up.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. All right. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, to start things off, we have some feedback. This feedback comes from Trina, the subject is “New.” Was that the entire subject, do you think? I don't know. She says, “Hi, Gin. I'm just becoming interested in IF since entering early menopause and having difficulty losing weight. I'll admit hearing Gin reference her previous weight at 210 on episode nine,” that was episode nine of our show? Wow. Long time ago.

Gin Stephens: I've probably said it on lots of episodes.

Melanie Avalon: “Was very revealing, but more so that transparency encouraged me. I'm currently 48 years old and I'm 209,” so very similar to Gin what your weight was, “at a very low point. I'm starting with your earlier podcasts, so I'm aways from your current podcast. Just know that I'll be stalking you guys to get caught up. Just wanted to say hi, and thanks.” I wonder when she'll get caught up to this episode. But, yeah, I thought that was a nice little thing to share.

Gin Stephens: Thank you, Trina. And you're right. Yeah, I was 210. And it's really hard to believe that was me, even to me, because it's been so long ago. That was 2014, so it's been over six years since I was at that weight. You can do it, Trina. Be patient with your body if you're entering early menopause because that's not a season of our lives known for easy weight loss. Just be prepared that while you're going through the hormonal shifts of menopause, it might take some time to see the weight loss that you're looking for.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, I think that's great.

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Judy. Judy says, “Hello. What fasting app do you recommend? And I had been doing intermittent fasting for several weeks. I felt better, lost a few pounds, and then sort of fell off the wagon. And I'm finding it hard to get back on. How do you suggest getting restarted when you break the cycle of intermittent fasting? Thanks.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, two great questions. So, fasting apps, do you recommend a go-to one or do you not? I remember you talked about it in your book, but you didn't mention one, right?

Gin Stephens: I did have a go-to app, but now I don’t. My go-to app was the one that my son Cal made, he made it for me. It was Window Intermittent Fasting Tracker. He made it for me back in 2016. At that time, 2016, there are like two apps out there. And one of them you could preset for 16:8 or 24, and that was it. And they also had maybe a couple of apps that let you track your fast, but I was wanting to track my eating window. So, I was like, "I need you to make me an app. I want to track my window." And so, it was called “Window,” not surprisingly. And over time, he made it better and better and better. It was fabulous.

And then a year ago, he was graduating from Georgia Tech and getting ready to start a full-time job at Airbnb, which is where he is working now. And he was also about to set out on this amazing cruise with his now-wife, and he was going to be proposing and he was really just kind of done with having to monitor an app all the time. He provided fabulous customer support, by the way, but he sold the app. Long story short, sold it to another company, and they have since changed the app a lot. And also, they have a new pricing structure. So, people who used it for a long, long time, found that it was really different.

I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for the Window app, but we're no longer affiliated with it. And so, I hate to recommend it just because some of the changes they made, it's very clear were made by people who don't understand intermittent fasting. Does that make sense? Some of the wording like, “Choose your intermittent fasting diet,” kind of wording. It no longer fits with my mindset towards fasting, if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: I was actually really, really curious if that was the case or if that had happened. So, it's really interesting.

Gin Stephens: They changed it. Interestingly, they didn't offer to stay connected to me, because if they had, I would have been willing to give them lots of great advice and also promoting it in the communities. But they did not, which is fine. They bought the app, they can do what they want with it. But some of the changes were not changes that were well received by the people who had been using it for years. That's all I'm going to say.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, actually, we've had quite a few apps approach us about partnering with the show and there's not really like one app, I think, that we endorse. And oftentimes, it's actually ties back into what I was saying at the beginning about measuring ketones and things like that, especially with ketones people will think, “Oh, this measure means this,” or, “This means this.” Some of the apps will say like, “Oh, at this time, you're entering autophagy,” and it's like, how do they know that?

Gin Stephens: They've added that to the Window app as well.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?

Gin Stephens: I think so. I hear from people. I still have the original version because I have mine set to not update. So, if I ever wanted to use it again, I could still use the old version. And I'm not anti the Window app. So, nobody think that I am, I will always have a very soft spot for it. But sometimes people think I'm still affiliated with it because I talked about it in Delay, Don't Deny. And I want to make it clear that I'm not, that's all I'm saying.

Melanie Avalon: This is like the episode of making things clear. [laughs] Making it clear where we stand on things. Oh, my goodness, that's really funny. The only app I've actually used, and I haven't used it extensively, and I don't know if they've made updates and I don't know your thoughts, Gin, but I have used Zero before.

Gin Stephens: I say I haven't used any of the others. That's the thing. I've never used them. I had no need to. And even right now, I have no need to because if I wanted to use an app, I would just use my version of Window the original that. It's not the original, he updated it, so it's the version that it was when he handed it over. That's what I still have.

Melanie Avalon: I'm impressed that you've been able to maintain not updating it. I feel like the iPhone is really good at sneaking in.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I have that turned off, the automatic updates.

Melanie Avalon: I do too. I don't know, but I feel they find ways.

Gin Stephens: They're not updating that. If they ever did, well, okay, but it would be lost to me, but I hope they don't because I feel like almost like I'm the mother of that app, too.

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's so interesting.

Gin Stephens: And now it's grown up and doing its own thing, so I can no longer control it. It's doing its own. Living its own life. There's a nice analogy for you.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. Well, so we're not that much help there. But now our thoughts on fasting apps.

Gin Stephens: Well, the second part of her question.

Melanie Avalon: Her second part about getting back on the wagon. I guess we should first address, is she falling off the wagon? I think you talked about that in your book, didn't you, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I do. I have a whole chapter. “There is no wagon.”

Melanie Avalon: And why is there no wagon?

Gin Stephens: Well, because intermittent fasting is a lifestyle, and I want you to commit to-- Judy and anyone listening, I want you to commit to, “Hey, I live in intermittent fasting lifestyle.” And so, here's what happens when you're in the cycle of wagons and on and off the wagon. You get off the wagon, and you're like, “Well, I quit. I'm not doing that.” And then, you get in this cycle of, I'm not doing it, but then you are doing it, but then I'm not doing it. Instead, think of, you are an intermittent faster and some days you'll have shorter fasts. And some days, you'll have longer fasts. If you have some days where you only fast for 12 hours because you get up and eat breakfast at 8:00 AM and then you stop eating by 8:00 PM, and you had a 12-hour eating period that day, you still had a 12-hour fast. So, if you just think of it like that and it breaks the cycle of off and on, that can really just help you free up the mental space to like, “Okay, I didn’t quit. I'm not off the wagon. I didn't fall off. I just had some longer eating windows, some shorter fasts, and I'm ready to tighten up that eating window.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's so important, so key. Honestly, my suggestion is just jump back in like the way you would at the beginning.

Gin Stephens: People who had been doing intermittent fasting very sporadically, and they weren't really doing it and then maybe the whole quarantine derailed people completely, and they just completely stopped from the stress. And so, a lot of people who had been experienced intermittent fasters and then quit, found that doing the 28-Day FAST Start from Fast. Feast. Repeat., helped them get their mind back in the game. Because the key is, you've got to get your mind back in the game and your body has to get back in the game. If you've been off intermittent fasting for a long time, it sounds easy to say just start back but your body's going to have to be retrained. Start fresh if you need to, but once you make that mental shift, I am doing an intermittent fasting lifestyle, then you never have to tell yourself I've fallen off the wagon ever again. You're just, “Well, today, I had a shorter fast and that's okay.”

Melanie Avalon: I do have an idea that I think some people like to do, I like to do this, but I've also read that you shouldn't do this. So, I'm actually really curious to hear your thoughts on it. But that's for with any new “habit,” although not that intermittent fasting is a habit. Like we just said, it's a lifestyle and you're not on or off. But with something like that, I love having my calendar, and I really love Lisa Frank.

I have these big sticker books of Lisa Frank stickers. And I love putting them each day on the calendar if I'm trying some new habit or if it was a dietary approach, or maybe it's a new window, every day. It's the Streaks idea, like the Streaks app that a lot of people have. I find it really motivating and encouraging and I think it shows me patterns really well in my life. But I've also read that you shouldn't do that because then it can make people nervous that they're going to break their streak. But I personally find it really helpful. Do you have thoughts on stuff like that, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, when you think about that, the 28-Day FAST Start is a similar idea. I'm encouraging people to give yourself 28 days to let your body adjust and every day you're doing it. So, I completely agree with the mindset of getting into a habit, then you just keep doing it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And I think it can be hard to remember-- well, not hard to remember, but when you see it, especially in your bright, spark Lisa Frank stickers, especially if you've been doing it a few days, you can look and automatically see, “Wow, it feels good. Oh, look at me.”

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I'm a schoolteacher. Those kind of things are right up my alley. I could make you a sticker chart at any moment. I could break one out. [laughs] Do not question sticker charts to an elementary teacher. Ah-ha. I'll make you a sticker chart.

Melanie Avalon: It's also really great if you find the perfect calendar which, friends, I have found the perfect calendar. I now order it every single year. I'll put link to it in the show notes. I forget the brand, but it's pretty much like-- it's some artists but every month is an animal. I'm a sucker for colors and glitter as you might imagine with the Lisa Frank reference, but it's just the most beautiful, motivating, inspiring colors ever. So, if you get that calendar and get some Lisa Frank stickers, it's a very motivational thing for your kitchen.

Gin Stephens: And does anyone know my thoughts about glitter?

Melanie Avalon: I'm guessing Gin does not like glitter.

Gin Stephens: I don't like glitter.

Melanie Avalon: You don't like glitter?

Gin Stephens: Oh my God. Glitter is like from Satan.

Melanie Avalon: Ask me what is my favorite thing?

Gin Stephens: Is it glitter?

Melanie Avalon: I love glitter.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I was a gifted teacher and I let the children do anything in the entire world that did not break the law. If it was not against the law or the school rules, they could literally do anything they wanted in my classroom creatively, except for one thing.

Melanie Avalon: No glitter.

Gin Stephens: No glitter. A new kid, I remember one day, she's like, “Do you have any glitter?” And the other kids were like, “She does not. She does not have glitter.” [laughs] I'm like, “I got anything else you want. I got everything up in my tubs up on the cabinets." I had anything, you name it, I could pull it out. But there was no glitter.

Melanie Avalon: Can I share one of my favorite memories? Which would have been probably one of your worst memories?

Gin Stephens: Did it involve getting glitter everywhere? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: In college, I went with my two best girlfriends to a Kesha concert, who we know-- Kesha is a big glitter fan. You can tell this was before my Beauty Counter days. I think we took hairspray. I think it was hairspray. It was. Oh, my goodness, Gin, I have changed so much. We took hairspray and we sprayed our entire bodies with hairspray and then we took glitter and we just threw it on our body so that we were just like walking glitter.

Gin Stephens: Oh my God, I would not even allow you into my house. I would have to hose you down in the neighbor's yard. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh. I'm going to send you a picture from my scrapbook.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, make a scrapbook page of that one. That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: I do have a scrapbook page of that one, so I will send to you.

Gin Stephens: Sharpies. Those are my things. I had so many Sharpies, you wouldn’t believe it. Sharpies and markers and paper.

Melanie Avalon: Did you have those scented markers?

Gin Stephens: Mr. Sketch?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: That's the brand. Yep. Mr. Sketch.

Melanie Avalon: Do they still make those?

Gin Stephens: They do still make Mr. Sketch. I didn't like them though. I liked them when I was a kid. But as a grownup, I didn't, because I realized I didn't like fake smelly things.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. Now, I would not. They would not be allowed in the apartment, but in childhood--

Gin Stephens: And all the children over there huffing the markers. Yeah, no, we didn't do that. I did not have those in my classroom. But I did that as a child.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. I have a story for you. So, about a year ago, I was doing a lot of IV chelation for my mercury toxicity and it was creating bruises in my veins, which was a little bit upsetting. And then, one day, my doctor pulled out this device and told me it would fix the bruising. I was a little skeptical, especially because it looked like a very intense device that could do very intense things, and this was my delicate veins we were talking about. But shockingly, he applied it to my veins and in the next few days, the bruising was gone. Flash forward a few months later, I was seeing a chiropractor. I've always had this really intense knot in my upper right shoulder. And then to my surprise, he pulled out the same device and used it on my shoulder and the effects were incredible. We're talking shoulder pain, gone.

I thought that this was clearly a medical device only available to doctors and chiropractors. Turns out, it's actually available to the general public. Oh, hey, yep, we're talking about a product called Theragun. The founder, Dr. Jason, has a heart of gold. He actually developed it after suffering from a traumatic motorcycle accident. Nothing on the market seemed to help him so he decided to take things into his own hands. He created Theragun to help people feel better naturally. In 2014, he met with the New England Patriots, and they immediately requested units for the entire team. That's how effective this device is.

It's scientifically calibrated with a specific combination of depth, speed, and power to release your deepest muscle tension. What I really love is that it comes with a lot of different attachments, so you can really tailor it to any part of your body. I actually used it right before recording this because that muscle spot was acting up. And right now, it feels so good. And super exciting, Theragun now has the all-new Gen 4, which has a proprietary brushless motor that's so quiet, you might actually wonder if it's even on. Think about the equivalent of an electronic toothbrush in the sound department.

And you can try it risk-free for 30 days. Yep, if you're not satisfied, you'll get all of your money back. I really believe there's no substitute for this Theragun Gen 4. It has an OLED screen, personalized Theragun app and the quiet and power that you need. It starts at only $199. You can go to theragun.com/ifpodcast right now and get your Gen 4 Theragun today. And I really recommend getting it today while they have it in stock. Once again, theragun.com/ifpodcast. All right, now back to the show.

So, our next question comes from, Jen. It's a long one, are you ready? So, the subject is, “Modified ADF Update Number of Meals Versus Overall Nutritional Content.” Okay, this was long, but I think it has a really good question in it.

So, Jen says, “Hi, ladies, I recently discovered your great podcast and I binge-listened to all the episodes to catch up on everyone to see if my question has been answered before writing in, but I don't think it has, at least not quite for my specific question. Regarding alternate day fasting, I'm wondering if it's the number and/or timing of the meals on the up days that matters most or is it the overall nutritional intake? With one large meal that is roughly equivalent in terms of nutritional content to two smaller meals spread over a longer eating window be equally protective of metabolic rate?

Some background on me, I'm a woman in my late 30s with a normal BMI and I had been doing low carb, high fat as well as a prolonged stint of keto with IF 16:8 throughout with some days off on the weekends for the past three years, or so I thought. After listening to this podcast, I now know I wasn't fasting clean or even really fasting at all, to be honest, because I was just putting just a splash of heavy whipping cream or unsweetened plant-based creamer in my coffee because based on what others had told me, I was still fasting as long as I was consuming under 50 calories and not using any sweetener. I was also drinking a bunch of unsweetened flavored dessert teas like vanilla bean, macaron, and butterscotch Blondie, as well as sipping broths and lots of unsweetened fruit-flavored seltzer like Lacroix, bone broth, bulletproof coffee, [unintelligible [00:32:58] brood cacao. I was sipping at all throughout my fast because I thought if I had no sweeteners, or just that, it was okay. I always had to be drinking something to quell my hunger and it was a struggle to barely make it to 16 hours.

And on the weekends, I often couldn't even make it that far. I now know why. And on top of that, despite my supposed fasting and low carb, high fat and keto efforts, I lost zero weight and even gained a couple pounds.” Before we go on, do you want to comment on that at all, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that is so much like the way I was early on before I read The Obesity Code. I was the same exact way because we were all just caught up in the calories in, calories out mindset. And if I wasn't eating a breakfast biscuit, I was fasting. And so, yeah, and just like Jen said, it was so hard. It was so hard. It was a struggle. I was basically white knuckling it every single day, so I get it.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting because when I first started intermittent fasting, I was not clean fasting, and it wasn't hard.

Gin Stephens: Well, I wonder if it has to do with-- I mean, you also were not obese. You probably didn't have crazy insulin resistance and your insulin levels were probably lower in general. Just overall.

Melanie Avalon: I honestly have no idea.

Gin Stephens: Well, also you were very young. So, that's really important. I was in my 40s and obese, and I think that's a huge factor.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm not saying that to challenge the clean fast, because fast forward to now, I'm like, completely an advocate of it. I just find that really interesting. I was just thinking about the stuff she was drinking because I was thinking about what I was drinking, which was flavored teas and stevia and all of that stuff. The thing actually that is interesting, my timeline was-- I think I probably cleaned up my food. I went paleo. That's when I cleaned up the fast and it was just all so beneficial.

Gin Stephens: And see mine was the opposite. I cleaned up the fast which made my body just naturally cleaned up the food after cleaning up the fast.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting how that happens. So, I was low carb for quite a while and then I added intermittent fasting, and I was doing one meal a day, and I heard about paleo from Robb Wolf, who I just interviewed, friends. I already said that I think on the show, but I interviewed him. It was crazy. I cried, almost. But in any case, I heard about paleo. I literally remember the day I heard about it. Gin, did you ever have like your crazy diet friend who would do all the crazy diets with you?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay.

Gin Stephens: I did not. Nobody was as crazy as me. Nobody.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I did. Shout out to Ben MP. So, I remember we would always do all the things together. He actually did the one meal a day with me when we first did it. I remember he was like, “Have you heard of this thing called paleo? I'm thinking of trying it.” And that's when I looked it up. It's so interesting because, Gin, people think with the fast eating, they're like, “Oh, what difference can it make cleaning up the fast?” That was my literal first thought. I was like, “What difference can it make cleaning up my food? I'm already fasting. I'm already doing one meal a day. Not really going to make much of a difference.”

Gin Stephens: Huge difference.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's interesting how we have similar-- for me the food and you the fasting, similar experiences of that whole experience of not appreciating the difference that might make and then realizing and just wanting to tell all the people.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. That's really it. The fact that we're not trying to take away your delicious sipping broths just because we're mean. Or we're not suggesting you gravitate towards real food just because it's amazing how different you feel.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, if it didn't feel absolutely so much more amazing on the other side, we wouldn't be advocating it. And to the food point, you find when people start fasting, they start craving more natural foods. The same, I feel, if you clean up your food, you start craving those foods and they taste so much more delicious. Anyway, back to her question.

She says, “I started to clean fast this past spring, just plain filtered water with the occasional unsweetened plain green tea or plain black coffee and was blown away by how much easier IF was with the clean fast and how great I felt.” Oh, my goodness, we just said this. So, she said, “Before I just thought IF is a way to lose weight. But now, I'm a convert for life for all the benefits I now know about, thanks to this podcast.

I also finally dropped those last stubborn seven pounds and got to my goal weight that has been eluding me for nearly eight years now." Yay." I can now easily breeze well past 16 hours with a clean fast and I've naturally settled to fasting 20 to 22 hours or longer daily with one meal a day. I basically break my fast when I feel hungry, which almost always is at least 20 hours into the fast. I don't check my eating window. I just eat one meal a day to satiety, which typically naturally results in a three to five-hour eating window. I feel best when I eat in the early to mid-afternoon and finish eating by 5:00 or 6:00 PM because I don't sleep well if I'm full and I feel sluggish the next day if I've eaten too late the day before. Because of my changing work schedule, however, I do one to two longer fast weekly of around 40 to 44 hours each, and they are so easy, and I feel absolutely great when I do them.

These longer fasts are usually spaced two days apart. So, I guess it's like doing ADF part of the week with one meal a day the rest of the week. For example, I'll typically have Monday and Wednesdays as down days where I eat nothing because I'm at work all day, and Tuesday and Thursday will be my up days. Friday through Sunday, I do standard one meal a day after fasting around 20 to 22 hours with occasional shorter 18-hour fast depending on how I'm feeling that day. The issue is that my up days on Tuesdays and Thursdays are still one meal a day. Not because I'm purposely trying to be restrictive, that's just what is comfortable and feels natural for my body. But after listening to this podcast and hearing Gin talk about ADF and the importance of eating at least two, and possibly three meals on up days to maintain metabolic rate, I'm concerned that I'm doing damage to my metabolism.

As an aside, I didn't even know what ADF was until I listened to this podcast. So, I didn't know that what I was doing with my longer weekly fast was even a thing. After hearing Gin talk about the importance of the refeeding on the up days, I've tried to eat at least two meals and extend my window, but I just can't. Mentally, I'm there, it makes total sense to me. But physically, I just can't. Is this part of the appetite correction Gin often talks about? I get so satiated with my first meal and one meal a day in general that I feel completely full and satisfied for the rest of the day. I've tried eating a smaller first meal on my up day, so I can eat more later, but that doesn't help. And I end up eating even less during the day, then if I eat into full satiety to begin with. If I were to eat a second meal, I'd have to extend my window so long that it basically blends right into my bedtime or I'd even have to stay up later just to accommodate a second meal somewhat comfortably, but then I'd be uncomfortable at bedtime.

My most recent up day, I forced myself to eat a second meal. It was really small, and it truly felt like a chore and obligation the entire time. I felt physically unwell, overly full, had terrible sleep. I felt sluggish and bogged down and uncomfortably full, yet paradoxically hungry the entirety of the next day, it was awful.”

"So, again," I think this is coming to her question, “Is it the number and/or timing of the meals on the up days that matters most? Or is it the overall nutritional intake? I don't like to use the term 'calories.' Is it okay for me to just eat one big satisfying meal on my up day if the overall nutritional intake would be equivalent or close to the two smaller meals I would otherwise have to force myself to eat? I'm an omnivore and don't follow a popular diet though in general, I try to avoid heavily processed foods and eat lots of vegetables and relatively lower carb than the standard American diet, but it's not low carb.

Even before listening to this podcast and having ADF/5:2 on my radar, I naturally ate more on my up days than on my typical one-meal-a-day days, but it was still a one-meal-a-day pattern and still finishing by around 6:00 PM. I don't count calories. I don't track macros. I just eat to satiety. And on these up days after a 40 to 44-hour fast, sometimes after 48 hours, I just naturally eat more than I do on a standard one-meal-a-day day where I fasted for around 20 to 22 hours. Is that okay? Does that protect my metabolic rate? Or do I need to eat at least two distinct meals over an extended window?

The thought of grazing tiny snacks all day as another option sounds miserable. When I eat, I want to eat. Skipping my weekly 40-hour fast is also not an option because it's a necessity given my work schedule and work environment on those days. Honestly, I don't want to skip those longer fasts anyways because they make me feel great. Thank you so much, ladies. I've learned exponentially more about IF from you these past three months than I have the past three years trying to do this on my own. Happy fasting, Jen.”

And then she does say, “Unrelated, but I came across a review article on fasting, COVID, and the immune system you two might find interesting.” I remember there were some questions about that in the previous episode, and we'll put a link to it in the show notes. It's called Intermittent Fasting, a Possible Priming Tool for Host Defense Against Sars-Cov-2 Infection: Crosstalk Among Calorie Restriction, Autophagy, and Immune Response. So very exciting.

Gin Stephens: That one's come up a bunch in the fasting groups, by the way, people have shared it.

Melanie Avalon: What's been the general conversation around it?

Gin Stephens: Well, it's a theory. They're like, “We think this could be helpful.” That's basically spoiler alert. That's what the article says. “We think fasting is probably great. That's it.” It just has to do with how fasting strengthens the immune system. And so therefore, they think that it would be a helpful tool.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. We'll put links to that in the show notes. So back to Jen’s question. I know that was really long, but I feel like this might be something a lot of people-- do you find people experience this, Gin? They're doing an ADF-ish type thing and then on their up days, they're just not feeling that urge or that need to-- Well, I guess we should first address her question for the up day, does it have to be meals spread out throughout the day? Or can it still be in a one-meal-a-day pattern?

Gin Stephens: I feel so very strongly about this that I would recommend not having the longer fast at all if you cannot have a refeed. I would not do it. Especially if you're somebody like Gin, who's at her ideal weight because the whole point of doing a longer fast and protecting your metabolism through the longer fast-- of course, the up day is protective of metabolism, but also you need to be well fueled during the longer fast.

So, let's imagine that you're at your ideal weight, our bodies, especially women, we need a certain amount of body fat. I was looking it up the other day because somebody was talking about their level of body fat and it was really low to me, and I looked and it was really low, for a woman. We have a certain percentage that we should be just for fat reserves, which is more than men should have. And so, when you start getting into the athlete level of fat percentage, our body is going to start to freak out, especially if she's in her late 30s. I don't know if she ever plans to have children, I don't know. But we certainly as women in our fertile years do not want to get into the state where our bodies are like, “Oh, gosh, we are over-restricting.” And so, I think that would be the perfect storm of, for your body. I mean, the bad one, the bad perfect storm because you're doing these longer fasts, you're at a really good weight already, and you're not willing to do a sufficient refeed, and you want to stick to one meal a day. That sounds like a really bad scenario for your body. And I would not recommend that at all.

If you want to do a longer fast, then you're going to have to have a longer window the next day to fit in more food because think about it from your body's point of view, not a lot of fat reserves, fasting over 40 hours, sometimes up to 48 hours twice a week, and then the next day only eating one meal. So, that's not going to send the, “Hey, we're well-fueled," message to your body.” It's not, it just isn't.

So, you're going to have to figure out a way to send that message to your body, and saying that it's not possible to-- you said skipping my weekly 40-plus hour fast is not an option because it's a necessity given my work schedule. I don't think any work schedule is going to expect people to not eat. You may feel really great working in the fasting state, and I get that. You're going to have to figure out a way to fuel your body.

I would not recommend one meal a day after the longer fasts, especially for someone at their ideal weight.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really glad we included this question. I think that's a really good message to put out there. I bet a lot of people probably wish they had Jen's problem, but I agree with everything that you said.

Gin Stephens: So, you really want to fill your body well. And it's tricky because we hear that in the groups, people were like, “Well, I'm just not hungry. I don't want to force myself to eat because isn't that against everything you've said?” Yes, it really does sound to be against everything we've said, forcing yourself to eat. But the thing is, is that you need to give yourself a longer period of time to let your appetite wake back up because if you over-restrict and over-restrict and over-restrict, that is not good for your body long term.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so it sounds like, Jen, your two potential options here are continuing to do your ADF but just trying to still work to find a way to have those adequate refeeding days, or just do a one-meal-a-day pattern, every day.

It reminded me of something else tangential, but related that I'd like to touch on, if I may because she was talking about how the difference between two meals versus one meal at once. I'm reading right now, Siim Land is coming out with a new book. I've had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The first episode I had him on was all about autophagy actually. So, if you'd like to learn all about that, definitely check that out. But his new book is called Stronger By Stress. Incredible. It's incredible. Well, knowing Siim Land, it's very, very intense and long and lots of information, but he does a really, really good job of providing a very thorough overview of-- The book is about the different ways that we can experience hormetic stress to make us stronger.

So, things like fasting, cold exposure, sauna, plant toxins, as well as healthy emotional stress. So, reframing our mindset and our perspective and he talks about things like stoicism, and it's really a valuable resource. But the point of this was is, we get a lot of questions on this show about people who are exercising and wanting to build muscle, and are concerned that they can't build adequate muscle with intermittent fasting. And he actually talks about that a lot and I found it really valuable because I learned a lot. So, people think with like protein, for example, that we can only-- we're often told that we need to eat protein constantly throughout the day to support muscle, that's been the general message. But what we know is that as long as you eat an adequate amount of protein within 24 hours of catabolism, so muscle breakdown, you can have adequate muscle build-up. The way this ties into the one versus two is, however, we have a gene called mTOR and it's what stimulates that growth state and that recovery state so actually when we're talking about this refeeding day, that's really important, part of that is evolving into a simulation, which is telling the body to grow and recover and build itself up again.

The way it works though, it's really interesting. When you eat a meal, especially high in protein, it stimulates mTOR, but it caps out. So, if you have a meal with decent amount of protein, you will stimulate up to a certain amount of mTOR expression. If you keep eating protein in that same meal, it's not like you stimulate mTOR more, it's kind of just it's on, which is totally fine, and you can still get all the protein you need but if you want to specifically build muscle and practice intermittent fasting, you can. But you probably need to have a longer window with two or even three separate meals with protein because when you do that, you'll stimulate mTOR multiple times for the muscle growth, if that makes sense. I just thought that was actually really, really valuable. And it just sparked my memory because you're talking about two versus one meal.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, there's definitely a difference.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so this is just for people who are like bodybuilders. If you want to have muscle growth and do intermittent fasting, you probably want to have a longer window with two or three meals that are stimulating mTOR rather than having it all in one meal.

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Gin Stephens: All right, so we have a question from Lauren. And it says, “Hi ladies, I love your podcast. I've been clean fasting since May 8, and I'm down 20 pounds.” Wow, that is a lot in such a short time. That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, by the way, her subject is another toothpaste question.

Gin Stephens: Another toothpaste question. All right. Yeah, today on the Ask a Moderator in the Delay, Don't Deny group, there were two toothpaste questions one after the other. I wanted to say, “Look up there.” [laughs] Scroll up. All right, so trust me, I've seen them all. She says, “I started my fitness journey in 2014. I've never seen results like I am seeing with IF. In respect to clean fasting, I would like to stop using Colgate toothpaste. I have two questions. I have heard on the podcast that just thinking about food or having anything including toothpaste in your mouth could spike insulin levels, especially if it's anything sweet tasting. Now, this might be weird, but I'm a huge salty snack person. I used plain baking soda and water to brush my teeth for the first time and my brain said, ‘Oh, this is something salty.’ Do you think I'm spiking my insulin levels because my body now thinks I'm eating something salty?”

If I could just pop right in and answer that one, our brain doesn't respond to salt or mineral tastes the same way it does to something sweet. So, the answer would be no. All right.

“I did feel hungry right after this, but I was also just about to break my fast regardless, so it was hard to tell. Second question, I find that the baking soda a little too bland, not feeling refreshed. Is adding one to two drops of organic peppermint oil into my homemade toothpaste okay? Or do you think this is not respecting a clean fast?

Bottom line. If my salty tooth is maybe spiking insulin and the peppermint oil is maybe questionable, is it even worth using homemade toothpaste or should I just use regular old Colgate? So far, IF has been effortless. Not sure why I'm overthinking this one so much. Hope this email wasn't too long and hope to hear from you both soon. Love the podcast. Thanks for all your support.”

Melanie Avalon: Well, first of all, I think it's funny she said she hopes it wasn't too long. We just read a novel. So, a few different questions in here, but Gin already answered the salt one. And if you think about it, oftentimes people doing fasting or particularly ketogenic diets with fasting, it's often very much encouraged that they might need electrolytes during the fast which is often a salty thing. So, don't have to worry about the salt.

This is just theorizing and talking. If some reason, a person does-- she says she feels it made her hungry. What are your thoughts on that?

Gin Stephens: I also have learned that what people say made me “hungry.” A lot of people have a lot of definitions for what they mean by made me hungry. A stomach growl, for example. So, it's hard to answer. A stomach growl is not technically hunger. That's a mechanical action. My stomach just growled, I think, right after I said that. My stomach growled. Does it mean I'm hungry? No.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. In any case, short answers with salt, it's not a problem. But it's for adding one to two drops of organic peppermint oil, I think that's completely fine. We've talked about peppermint before on this podcast and I always with peppermint have found it-- I use homemade peppermint breath spray every day, I find it kills my appetite. I've read studies where it reduces appetite, for you, but does it make you hungry?

Gin Stephens: No, it's fine for me. My brain does not associate it with a timed release of insulin. I use peppermint Burt's Bees all day long. So, that might be why my brain does not see it as, “Oop, calories are coming. We need insulin.” But I know people, even some of the moderators of our Facebook groups are like, “Yeah, I cannot do the vial drops or the peppermint oil.” It makes them shaky and so that's the sign that they've had an insulin response. That's why I consider peppermint oil to be in the gray area, as far as that goes.

Melanie Avalon: So, it's a case really of do you see how you respond to it? I will say just a little quick toothpaste PSA. Fun fact that might blow your mind if you didn't know it. Our teeth are actually-- I think, they're the only part of our body, that might not be exactly true, but I'm pretty sure they're the only, if not the only part of our body that in order to get their nutrition requires direct contact. So, you know how the rest of our body nutrients are delivered, they're processed by the body and they're delivered through the bloodstream and that's how it all goes down? That includes our bones. Our teeth, nothing gets delivered to the teeth through any bloodstream or pathway or highway. So, it's what you've literally directly put on your teeth. So, you want to make sure that your toothpaste in particular is something that is rich and mineralizing ingredients, so that it will support the health of your teeth. Isn't that so interesting?

Gin Stephens: That is interesting.

Melanie Avalon: That's like a fun fact that stuck with me for life. I was like, “Wow.” So, I guess that means that I wonder if the implications of that maybe that might mean that if you can eat a super high calcium teeth-supportive diet, but if you just shoveled it directly into your gut without going through your mouth your teeth might not actually be nourished from it, so fascinating.

Gin Stephens: I talk about this in Fast. Feast. Repeat. Lauren, if you have that book, it is on page 55, so you can turn there and look. I actually want you to use whatever toothpaste you want. Whatever it is, I don't want you to overthink the toothpaste or your morning dental routine and feel like you have to use baking soda with the salty flavor because here's why. We have a cephalic phase insulin response. Let's say your toothpaste-- if your brain did say, “Ooh, here's this sweetness coming in.” It happens within like two minutes, and then the insulin peaks at four minutes and returns to baseline between 8 to 10 minutes. So, that's going to be a really small spike. It's not going to be something that is going to last for hours. That's just something important to know. You brush your teeth, you go about your day, I would not recommend brushing your teeth every 10 minutes because that's going to be up and up and up and up. That's also why I think of gum and sodas and things like that is different because you don't just chew gum and then move about your day. It's something that continues and goes on and on and on. And back when I was a gum chewer, I was popping piece after piece after piece. So, it was pretty much continual. With your toothpaste, you're not continually doing it.

So, duration is important. I really encourage people to not stress too much about toothpaste. Use the kind that fits in with your philosophies, and if that's Colgate, then use Colgate. If that's the one you'd like to use, use it. If you want to make a homemade toothpaste with baking soda and peppermint oil? I don't know if that's what a dentist would recommend or not, I'm not really sure what they think about brushing with just baking soda. So, I'm not going to say to do that, because they might be like, “Oh, no, please don't do that.” I don't really know. Ask your dentist.

Melanie Avalon: To that point, the homemade one.

Gin Stephens: That might be a really bad idea. I just don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm a fan of homemade, but like I said, with the direct contact, you would probably want it to include things like their calcium powders and things like that, so that you're still getting that mineralization benefits. And I'm glad you brought up the insulin phase response. I know we've talked about that before on this show, but that was personally a big epiphany moment for me, what Gin just mentioned. Because basically, your pancreas has a little bit of insulin armed and ready to go. It's like a little bit, and it's what's released when you first taste something. It's what Gin just said. When you continue to eat and bring it in, then the pancreas once it loses that first little bit that it has primed and ready, it starts creating more, and that's what we don't want to happen, which would happen with eating or like Gin said, if you're continually having that flavor still coming in.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Now, I will say this also, if you notice every day after you brush your teeth, you get shaky like your blood sugar has crashed, maybe try a different brand or a different flavor. Switch from peppermint to a different-- I'm not going to say there's no time that toothpaste might be a problem for somebody. The issue is, if it makes you feel shaky, like your blood sugar is crashing, then you can experiment with different options. That's the only time I want you to worry about it.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode176. Feel like we talked a lot about a lot of stuff on this show. So, definitely check that out for all of the links to everything.

You can submit your own questions to the show. Just directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. You can follow me, I'm @melanieavalon. You can follow Gin, she's @ginstephens. And I think that's it, I guess. Anything else from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, talk to you next week. Bye.

Gin Stephens: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcast, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox.

See you next week.