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Jan 31

Episode 198: Personal Health Wearables, Heat Stress, Training For Ironman, Sugar Vs. Sugar Substitutes, Vitamin Fortified Foods, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 198 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time New Members Will Get A Rack Of St. Louis Style Ribs, A Pack Of Bacon, And A Pack Of Pulled Pork For Free In Their First Box By Going To Butcherbox.Com/IFPODCAST!

BiOptimizers: A Company Whose Mission Is To Fix Your Digestion! Get Their Full Spectrum Magnesium Supplement, Containing All 7 Versions Of Magnesium To Fix Your Magnesium Status, reduce stress, and improve sleep quality! Go To www.bioptimizers.com/ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save 10% Off Any Order!

BLUBlox: Overexposure to blue light in our modern environments can lead to increased anxiety, stress, headaches, and other health conditions. Even a tiny exposure to artificial light can completely offset your circadian rhythm! Unlike many “blue light blocking” glasses on the market, BLUBlox provides glasses that block the exact blue wavelengths you need to regulate sleep, reduce anxiety, and much more! They also provide different types of glasses for the time of day, season, and your personal electronic and light exposure! Plus, for every BLUblox purchase, they donate a pair of glasses to someone in need! Go To bluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time new members will get A rack of St. Louis style ribs, A pack of bacon, and a pack of pulled pork for free in their first box by going to butcherbox.com/IFPODCAST!

3:20 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

SUNLIGHTEN: Get $100 Off The Solo Unit AND $99 Shipping With The Code MelanieAvalon At MelanieAvalon.Com/Sunlighten

FOOD SENSE GUIDE: Get Melanie's App At Melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide To Tackle Your Food Sensitivities! Food Sense Includes A Searchable Catalogue Of 300+ Foods, Revealing Their Gluten, FODMAP, Lectin, Histamine, Amine, Glutamate, Oxalate, Salicylate, Sulfite, And Thiol Status. Food Sense Also Includes Compound Overviews, Reactions To Look For, Lists Of Foods High And Low In Them, The Ability To Create Your Own Personal Lists, And More!

19:25 - BIOPTIMIZERS: Go To www.bioptimizers.com/ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save 10% Off Any Order!

22:40 - Listener Feedback: Krishcea - What a life hack

Life lessons with gin and sheri podcast

28:15 - Listener Q&A:  Franchesca - Oura ring

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #76 - Harpreet Rai (Oura Ring)

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #74 - Benjamin Bikman, Ph.D.

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #70 - Kara Collier (Nutrisense)

37:40 - Listener Q&A: Vicki - Ironman training

Intermittent Fasting Stores Epsiode 121

For A Limited Time Go To DrinkLMNT.Com/Ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!!

Stronger By Stress: Adapt to Beneficial Stressors to Improve Your Health and Strengthen the Body (Siim Land)

44:10 - BLUBLOX: Go To BluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

46:50 - Listener Q&A: Samantha - Whole food sweeteners, Sugar vs Aspartame & Rick Johnson

The Wahls Protocol: A Radical New Way to Treat All Chronic Autoimmune Conditions Using Paleo Principles (Terry Wahls M.D.)

Sari Foods Co Natural Non-Fortified Nutritional Yeast Flakes (24 oz.)

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 198 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of our sponsors. This episode is sponsored by Butcher Box. As you know, both Melanie and I love Butcher Box and for different reasons. Melanie loves to grocery shop, but can't find the quality of meat she's looking for at our local stores. Butcher Box solves that problem for her. For me, there's nothing better than having it delivered right to your door, because you probably know that I hate to grocery shop. Butcher Box promises high-quality meat, delicious 100% grass-fed beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork, and wild-caught seafood, all sourced from partners who believe in doing things the right way. It's also an unbelievable value. The average cost is less than $6 per meal. One thing you'll love about Butcher Box is its flexibility. Here's how Butcher Box works.

Butcher Box partners with folks who believe in better, going above and beyond when it comes to caring for animals, the environment, and sustainability. You choose your box and delivery frequency. They offer five boxes, four curated box options, as well as the popular custom box, so you get exactly what you and your family love. Butcher box ships your order frozen for freshness and packed in an eco-friendly 100% recyclable box. You enjoy high-quality meat delivered to your door and more time for amazing meals together. You feel good about your decision to believe in better with Butcher Box supporting farmers and partners who honor nature, the animals, and the environment. Get ready for game day with Butcher Box. Right now, new members will get one rack of St. Louis-style ribs, one pack of bacon and a pack of pulled pork for free in their first box by going to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast.

Melanie Avalon: One more thing before we jump in. Are you concerned about aging? Well, thankfully, fasting is super incredible for its anti-aging benefits. It activates genes in your body called sirtuins, which repair your body and help extend lifespan. Also, during the fast, your body can clean up a lot of harmful chemicals which may be taxing your detoxification systems. In fact, the reason people go gray is because their detox systems start producing a lot of hydrogen peroxide when dealing with toxins. Do you know where a lot of those chemicals come from? Your skincare and makeup. As it turns out, there are 1000s of compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup that Europe has banned due to their toxic nature, and the US has banned less than 10. When you put these on your skin every single day through your skincare makeup, you're adding to your body's burden and likely aging your skin faster.

Thankfully, you can easily clean up your skincare with a company called Beautycounter. They make incredible products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about every single ingredient that you put on. They also have an amazing anti-aging line called Countertime. Friends, this is a game-changer. It's full of active ingredients which nourish and support your skin, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, and support a beautiful glow. It also has a safe alternative to retinol, so you can get all of the anti-aging benefits of retinol without any of the toxic effects of retinol, because, yes, that stuff is toxic. Guys, put it away now.

You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. If you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. Also definitely get on my clean beauty email list that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away so many free things on that list. So definitely check it out. Lastly, if you anticipate making safe skincare a part of your future, just like Gin and I do, definitely become a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for safe skincare. You get 10% back on all of your purchases, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that costs way more than the price of the membership. It's completely worth it. Friends, are you fast and clean inside and out? You can with Beautycounter. Again, that link is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 198 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am fabulous. Happy New Year.

Melanie Avalon: Happy New Year. How was your New Year's Eve?

Gin Stephens: Well, I spent it with my cohost of the Life Lessons podcast. She and her husband came to visit for a couple nights and we put together my new Sunlighten sauna.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited.

Gin Stephens: Oh my gosh. Yes.

Melanie Avalon: I've been waiting for this moment, Gin, since I first got Sunlighten like, what, a year and a half ago, maybe? Oh, my goodness. Tell me everything.

Gin Stephens: It's kind of funny. Did I tell you how we couldn't put it together because my husband wouldn't make a decision about the garage? As soon as the box was delivered-- we talked about it all the way through the process like, “Okay, I'm going to get the sauna. Should I go ahead and get it?” And he's like, “Yes.” It took a few weeks for it to come. Now I got the mPulse cONQUER Sunlighten sauna which the three people. I'm not going to put three people in it, you'd have to sit really close together, but I can lay down on the bench. It's a pretty good sized-- it's 71 inches wide. It's a good size. Anyway, as soon as the box was delivered, it's actually three giant boxes that had to come special freight. They used a forklift to put it in our garage, that's how heavy the three boxes were. Okay, so I was like, “Oh, that's a lot.”

As soon as it was delivered, he's like, “Now we have to paint the floor of the garage and the walls of the garage before we can put anything up.” I'm like, “Well, okay, let's think about that.” We thought about thought about it, thought about it. He looked at paint chips. He thought about it, he never made a decision. It sat there for over a month, staring at me. Then finally, I was like, “Sheri and Eric are going to be here on New Year's Eve, what if we go ahead and just set up the sauna now?” He's like, “Okay, fine.” So, we did it. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: The sauna I have for listeners, I've talked about it a lot, I have the Solo unit, which is it's great for people like me who live in an apartment, who don't have a lot of space because it's collapsible and you actually lay down inside of it. They actually have it at a lot of spas. Before I had one, I was getting sessions at different spas, so it's amazing for a little apartment dweller like me. Gin got the sauna sauna. Tell me about it.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm really glad we waited till they were here to put it together because it really did, I think take three people. Now, Eric just had neck surgery, so he couldn't lift anything heavy, but he was the technical director, he read the directions to us and helped us know what to do. I mean, we did it. We just did it. It was pretty easy. The pieces were in there, you start with the floor and then you put it on the back and the side pieces and the front. Then, there's this little pin that just connects the front to the side and these little pins, they're just four. The whole thing was eight screws and four pins.

Melanie Avalon: Are you serious?

Gin Stephens: Eight screws to screw on the feet on the bottom, four pins, one for each corner, and then the roof just set into place. The hardest part was you have to undo the floor panels and then click together the electrical connections. A little tip, if anybody gets one, in the directions they have you put the bench in first and then do the floor connections. Don't do that. [laughs] Because Sheri and I were both in there like hunched under the bench, but we did it. Then, it all worked. It just all worked. Oh, and you can watch TV on the little panel.

Melanie Avalon: It has a TV?

Gin Stephens: Well, it has a touch panel that actually has a media-- it connects to your Wi-Fi, and you can watch like Netflix. I didn't know it was going to do that. It's an Android tablet in there. I had no idea. I'm like, “Oh my God, we can watch TV while we're sitting in here.”

Melanie Avalon: Does it have the chromotherapy, like the color lighting?

Gin Stephens: It has different color lights. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, just in case, they're not familiar, the Sunlighten saunas are infrared saunas. They don't heat up by heating up the air, they actually use infrared wavelengths that heat you up from the inside out. It feels warm, I assume, but--

Gin Stephens: The air goes up to 132 when I'm in there, 132 degrees. The air does go up, but it doesn't go up to the levels of 160, 170.

Melanie Avalon: Like traditional heat saunas.

Gin Stephens: Yes. I mean, it does go up. It's 131, 132 degrees in there when it's really going.

Melanie Avalon: Then you actually heat up from the inside. A way I describe it is, you can have a fever, but not-- you feel warm this on it, but you can have a fever and not actually feel that hot. That's how a sauna works. It gives you an artificial fever. People might be like, “Why do I want to have an artificial fever? The benefits are profound. There's so much clinical literature on the benefits of heat stress, because basically it activates something called heat shock proteins in your body. We're always talking on the show about how fasting activates things like autophagy and different cellular processes that support health. Just like fasting is a stress. sauna used as a stress. Well, A, it can have the cardiovascular equivalent benefits of working out for your heart. They started doing studies actually on sauna use as a veritable or a potential preventative measure for COVID. I was actually reading some studies on it.

Gin Stephens: Oh, wow.

Melanie Avalon: I'll put a link in the show notes to that. I did a really long blog post on this recently. That's why it's all at the top of my head. The conclusion of the study was that heat therapy might be something to consider with this pandemic, because the body's initial way that it combats viruses is with fever, with heat. Viruses are heat sensitive and COVID, the SARS strain is, so that's really cool if you can get in your sauna every single day and hopefully use it as a preventative for COVID.

Gin Stephens: I think I'm going to use it every single day. I don't know what will happen in the summer. We'll have to see, but right now, I mean, every day I've gotten in it because it feels so good. I wake up, drink my coffee, do my normal morning.

Melanie Avalon: You do it in the morning? Oh, that’s so interesting. I do it at night right before eating.

Gin Stephens: Before I get in the shower. Yeah, because I'm so sweaty.

Melanie Avalon: The way I describe it is you get in it and you just feel like your body just gives a sigh of relief.

Gin Stephens: I don't want to get out. I'm not kidding. I'm doing research for my new book, and I was doing research in the sauna. So, I think I stayed in there too long.

Melanie Avalon: It's amazing. A little hack for listeners, if you end up getting the Solo unit that I have, and you want to set it up inside, I'll put a link to the way I set it up because Amazon has a twin mattress frame thing that's all metal and black and it fits perfectly. Like you sit the Solo on top of it, and then I found this, also on Amazon, it's like an arm that holds your iPhone and I attach it to the frame, so then it holds my iPhone over my head, so then I can do work or read a book while I'm in it.

Gin Stephens: I'm finding that it just feels so great just to be in there that I don't want to get out, so I'm going to find ways to do my work in there, too. They technically say don't take your phone in there.

Melanie Avalon: They do? I was wondering if they say that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it does say that but I think they probably just say that to be safe. I did have my phone in there for a while with me this morning. Then I was like, “Oh, yeah, phone.” So, I took it out, but the unit that I have people are like, “Where would I put it in my house?” I have it in a corner of my garage that it fits in perfectly. We did have to have a new circuit put in.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to ask about that.

Gin Stephens: It was like 100 bucks. It was not expensive.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? Who installed it?

Gin Stephens: Our electrician. We just called, and he was doing some other work for us. We're like, “Hey, do you know how to do this?” He's like, “Yeah, that'll be very easy.” He just did it. It was very easy for him to do it. Just needed a special plug for it. You could have it done in like a spare bedroom, or they can even go outside, but you have to cover it with a special cover that they sell, so I would worry about the longevity of it outside. I feel like it's an investment I want to have protected, but you can put them outside.

Melanie Avalon: This is so exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is so exciting. I just really can't believe how much I love it because I like to be hot. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I was so excited. I was like, “I know when she gets it, she's going to go with it and she's going to love it.” I feel it's not exactly what you anticipate. It's not this miserable, sweaty, disgusting feeling. It's like the most pleasant feeling with so many health benefits. Like I said it, I think it pairs really well with fasting.

Gin Stephens: I think so, too. I'm doing it in the fasted state, so I feel it's accelerating, I don't know, maybe it isn't, but it feels like it would.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, well, to that point, because people often wonder about the metabolic benefits in weight loss and things like that. It actually does burn a substantial amount of calories by heating up your body. Most of the “weight loss” is temporary and it's water, but it actually can support weight loss as well. You can wear your Oura ring in there, in case listeners are wondering. I'm just so happy right now. So happy for you. For listeners. If you'd like to get your own Sunlighten sauna, I promise you, you will not look back it will be one of the best decisions you've ever made. We do have a link for listeners. If you go to ifpodcast.com/sunlighten and use the coupon code, IFPODCAST, there's some sort of discount that you will get at that link. So, that's pretty awesome.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I can't recommend it highly enough.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so happy.

Gin Stephens: I am so happy. My house was built in 1979, so I don't know why we have this little section in the garage. Maybe it's there a heating ductwork in there, I have no idea. There's this one little section where the ceiling is a little bit lowered. My sauna is exactly the right size to go in that section. I mean like exactly. The height of it was perfect. It looks it was designed for a sauna together. It was the 70s, they were wacky, maybe it was.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe it was. It would have been a probably a traditional sauna.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's true.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's the other amazing thing that I love about the infrared sauna is, it's like self-cleaning in a way because traditional heat, saunas can have a problem about mold growing in them. The infrared saunas, they pretty much take care of themselves. They're very low maintenance for cleaning, which is really, really awesome.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yay. I feel I'm slowly pulling you into all the biohacks world of things.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] These are easy ones. Oh, and I also started the Zoe eating from the PREDICT 3 study. I'm using the Zoe app. I'm just eating a lot of beans, beans and vegetables, mostly.

Melanie Avalon: How do you feel?

Gin Stephens: I feel so fantastic.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? Cool.

Gin Stephens: Yes. It's really, really hard to because my body clears fats really which I'm not [unintelligible [00:16:32] about. That's the only part that's hard for me is, I can have meals that score 100 as far as because it matches what my gut microbiome does well with what foods are good for me, but because I have an eating window, if I stack too many things in it, my body doesn't have time to clear the fat and my score goes down because of that. Like avocados and eggs, for example. They're great for me, but I can't have too much of it close together. That's the only hard part.

Melanie Avalon: That would make sense.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm super bummed that my body clears fat slowly, but so not surprised.

Melanie Avalon: I'm sure I would bet that mine does clear slowly as well. I have a question for you. It didn't test your fat clearance in a non-paired with carbohydrates situation, did it?

Gin Stephens: They were separate. There were two different muffins. I'm not sure what the macronutrient ratio of each muffin was, so I can't tell you that. I know that one muffin was a high sugar muffin with low fat. The other muffin was a high-fat muffin with lower carbs. It tracked how your body cleared the fat after the high-fat muffin.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if they did the same test on you, if you were doing a ketogenic diet, if it would be the same.

Gin Stephens: Well, I will tell you that I felt terrible all the time when I did keto, like it was inflammatory for me and this would explain why. They talk about in their research that if your body clears fat slowly, too much fat is inflammatory for you. That was like a light bulb of why I felt so inflamed on keto, well, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: That's so interesting.

Gin Stephens: It's very high in like I said, fruits and vegetables. Well, I could eat fruits, but vegetables, lots and lots of vegetables, and I'm eating so many beans.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just thinking about the digestive distress I would have.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I feel great. My body's like, “Bring on the beans.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my gosh. That's so funny. I have one really quick update for listeners. I think it will be released by the time this comes out most likely. I should have recently just released an update to my app, speaking of food digestive issues. My app, Food Sense Guide, it did have 11 potentially problematic compounds that people react to in over 300 plus foods, things like FODMAPs and histamine and oxalates and lectins and gluten and all this stuff. I just added AIP, which is autoimmune paleo. A lot of people do that approach. Basically, now it says for each food if it is on the AIP protocol, or not.

Gin Stephens: Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Very excited. Working still with your son's friend on that. He does my updates.

Gin Stephens: I actually saw Nate over at the Christmas holidays.

Melanie Avalon: That is so lovely.

Gin Stephens: And Nate's dog. I saw him from a distance. He waved at me, actually distanced. [laughs] They played frisbee in the front yard with their masks on.

Melanie Avalon: Oh really, I love it. Responsible.

Are you a little stressed out? I know for me even with all of my stress hacks, meditation, workout, diet, exercise, all of my biohacking gadgets, sometimes it still feels like I am stressed at the cellular level. That's really the only way I can think of to describe it. No one likes feeling stressed out or how it can affect those around you. Did you know that a key factor in your stress levels may come down to a certain mineral in your diet? What is that mineral? It's magnesium. You see, magnesium is the fourth most abundant mineral in the human body. Since magnesium is responsible for 300 to 600 different biochemical reactions in your body including metabolism, when your levels are low, you can struggle with sleep, energy, metabolism, pain, and stress. You can get magnesium in certain foods like black beans, nuts, avocados, spinach, and many more. Our current soil depletion today means that many of these foods are still lacking in the mineral. If you really want to make sure that you get enough magnesium like your body needs, we recommend using a supplement in addition to these foods. Now before you go and research magnesium supplements, here are some things to keep in mind.

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We highly recommend trying magnesium breakthrough for at least 30 days and see how it will make a difference in your mood and stress levels. You can get 10% off with our special Intermittent Fasting Podcast coupon code. Just go to bioptimizers.com/ifpodcast and enter the coupon code, IFPODCAST10. That's B-I-O-P-T-I-M-I-Z-E-RS dotcom, forward slash I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T and use the coupon code IFPODCAST10. Once again, that's bioptimizers.com/ifpodcast with a coupon code IFPODCAST10, and now back to the show.

Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off, we have mostly feedback but with one question. It is from Keisha. “The subject is what a life hack.” Keisha says, “My name is Keisha and that is pronounced Keisha.” She says, “I was introduced to IF in March of 2019 by my fiancé and just like the majority of the population, I was unhappy with my body. I'm five foot tall and I weighed 160 pounds prior to starting IF. In February of 2019, I was put on fenofibrate by my physician for my triglycerides were in the 400 range, and I was also prediabetic. Both of these conditions run in both sides of my family, combined with a poor diet, I was set to fail. I've been an intermittent faster since March of 2019 and my life was forever changed. My goal was to lose 50 pounds and I did. I lost five pounds in 10 months doing 16:8 for the first three months which was the adjusting period. I remember hitting a plateau and I took that as my body’s signal to change things up a bit. I combine 20:4 and one meal a day depending on my schedule and the activities I have planned.

After being fully adjusted to IF after the first three months, I noticed that my body was craving high protein, medium fat, low carb items. My attitude towards food changed. I do not look at food the same way as I did before I incorporated intermittent fasting into my life. I listened to my body and honored its wishes. December of 2019, right before the holidays is what I hit my goal. I cannot believe that I was capable of losing 50 pounds, when I couldn't even lose 10 pounds in the past without gaining it back, plus some. I was so proud of myself. The weight loss was the cherry on top.

I found your podcast around October 2019 and you guys have helped changed my life. After finding your podcast, I got interested in biohacking.” Yay, that's me. “And did my own research. I was so fascinated by you guys and all the health benefits that you talk about on the podcast, so I applied everything I learned from you two, and from doing my own research into my life. After my weight loss, my physician took me off of fenofibrate for a scheduled physical and my triglycerides were normal. I was no longer in the prediabetic range, and my IBS-C medication was also fully stopped by the fifth month of IF since I no longer needed it for regularity. My mood, mindset, and attitude was also improved by 50-fold. I no longer get frequent migraines, and I feel one with myself. The purpose of this email is to tell you my story and to show gratitude. You're changing lives, just like how you two helped change mine. The one interest I have is to be part of an intermittent fasting study. Do you guys know how I can go about this? Everyone needs to know what intermittent fasting is and we need to conduct more research about autophagy to really educate the community. Thank you, guys.” And then, she also attached photos to show the changes that she experienced. I really, really loved this email.

Gin Stephens: I loved it, too.

Melanie Avalon: Do you know how listeners can join studies?

Gin Stephens: Are you going to tell me?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] The way you said it sounded like, “I know the answer.” I have no idea. If you have connections, if you're in a research town where they're doing, I don't know. For example, the PREDICT 2 study was word of mouth. I don't even know who first told me that they were doing it. It might have been my friend, Sheri, the cohost of the podcast, Life Lessons, with me. Somebody was like, “Oh, look, they're looking for people to do the PREDICT 2 study.” I think word of mouth is one way a lot of these things spread through communities.

Melanie Avalon: I often see studies come across my emails occasionally. I actually the other day got one from my health insurer-- no, no, I think it was from Quest or LabCorp. I think it was Quest where you get blood draws. I'm on their email list and they sent out a thing where you could sign up to be in their pool for studies. I usually don't qualify for most of them because a lot of the times it's like you can't have had-- when they're like gut related, you can't have had like digestive issues or things like that. I'm like, “Oh, well, that's not me.” I will put links in the show notes, because there are some websites that you can go on, and you can sign up to potentially be matched to studies. I'll put links in the show notes to some of those links. Wait, how did you say, Gin, that you got the PREDICT study?

Gin Stephens: Well, I didn’t know that we were talking about it in the Intermittent Fasting group. I think it might have been my friend, Sheri. I don't know how she found out about it, but somebody was like, “Look, they're looking for people to do this study.” But I think it gets passed around sometimes in interested communities. I feel if there was an intermittent fasting study looking for participants that we would know in our communities.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, for example, just briefly googling, and I haven't used these, so I can't speak to if they're good sources or not. There's a website called researchmatch.org that will match you to studies, there's a website called antidote.me that will match you to studies. If you just google like how to join research studies, there are quite a few websites that pop up. That might be a good way to go. I would actually love to hear from listeners, I wonder if any of our listeners have been in any of the intermittent fasting or time-restricted eating studies.

Gin Stephens: That would be interesting. I wonder what they told them to drink. I'm always so curious.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, listeners, if you have been in one, please write in and tell us. I'm dying to know what that was like. So, yeah, hopefully that's helpful.

Gin Stephens: All right. Are we ready to go on?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Okay. We have a question from Francesca, and the subject is “Oura Ring.” She says, “First, I wanted to know what you thought of the Oura ring. I'm debating whether or not to buy one and have read conflicting opinions and views about its degree of usefulness. I tried looking through your podcasts to see if the titles mentioned them, but there are so many. I have really been working on improving my sleep. I wear blue-blocking glasses after dinner, have a weighted blanket, wear a sleep mask, and keep my room cool. I still tend to wake up a lot. I recently started using the Nutrisense CGM and I have high blood glucose levels during the night, even after they had been low all day. Even when I stopped eating by 6 PM, though they are somewhat lower when I do, they still will go up into the 120s during the night, even though when I go to bed, it will be in the 90s. I go to bed around 10 PM, I eat low carb 30 to 50 grams, moderate fat, 80 to 100 grams, and higher protein, 130 grams. As I am still looking to lose 10 pounds and I lift heavy weights to build muscle and I also do HIIT, do you have some information as to why blood glucose levels can rise so much at night? By the way, I enjoy your podcasts and have learned many useful things to help me with my IF lifestyle that I've been doing on and off for two years. Mostly, the best tip I picked up was not too long ago when it was brought out in your podcast that just the taste of something sweet, even Stevia, could spike insulin as the body anticipates food will be arriving. I usually drink tea and coffee with Stevia while fasting. Now I'm trying to forego the Stevia and have noticed I have much less hunger on my fasts. Thanks so much.”

Melanie Avalon: All right. Thanks so much, Francesca, for your questions. A few things to touch on. Actually, on our website, ifpodcast.com, you don't have to go through and look through all the titles, there's actually a search bar at the top, especially now that we have transcripts and all the show notes. If you search in the search bar, it'll pull up specific episodes that talk about it. Like I said, because we have the transcripts now, it really should pull it up if we've ever talked about it. Well, we only started the transcripts sort of recently, so it'll only search for the transcripts for the past few probably months or so. We haven't talked about Oura ring lot, and that's because I just recently got one, but oh my goodness, I am so obsessed with it. I'll put a link in the show notes because it will have aired by the time this episode comes out, the interview that I did with the founder, Harpreet Rai, that I actually really, really do recommend it.

I was really hesitant to get one for the longest time because I'm hesitant about information overload. I didn't want something telling me all the time, like if I was failing, or I didn't want to always be so aware of everything all the time and get all in my head about my health biomarkers because basically Oura ring, it measures your sleep cycles, your heart rate, your heart rate variability, your body temperature, your respiration, your activity levels. But actually, this is what I talked about in the interview with the founder, it is so comforting, in the way that it talks to you, it basically just gives you the information about your body and makes recommendations for how to tackle your day, how to make yourself better, when you should rest, when you should go harder, it's very empowering. That's how I would describe it. If you are a night person like me, it's not going to try to force you to become a morning owl. It's going to recommend that you go to bed at times that are actually pretty late, which is really exciting. Mine tells me that I should go to bed at like 1:30 AM.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it knows.

Melanie Avalon: It knows. Yeah. I think the software is designed to, if it thinks you should be going to bed earlier, I think it will try to gradually nudge you there by slowly encouraging you to go to bed early and earlier, but I'm pretty sure my Oura ring is never going to tell me to go to bed at 10 PM. Yeah, long story short, I really recommend it. Gin, maybe you can try one someday.

Gin Stephens: Maybe.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe, maybe.

Gin Stephens: When they come up with a smaller one. I don't like big rings. It's big.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it is big.

Gin Stephens: My friend, Sheri, has one that was here, and I kept staring at hers. I meant to try it on, but I forgot.

Melanie Avalon: I don't even really think about it, but people do ask me about it a lot, like, “What is that?” Does it look that strange? I guess so.

Gin Stephens: I don't think it looks strange. I think it's also the way my fingers are shaped, I have short stubby fingers and they don't look good with chunky rings. You know how some fingers look terrible with certain kind of rings? It looks too weird on my hand.

Melanie Avalon: That makes sense.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I've short stubby hands.

Melanie Avalon: He said in the future-- I'm really excited, might start partnering with some jewelry companies to make branded ones.

Gin Stephens: All right, I could get behind on that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, for listeners, I'll put a link in the show notes to the interview that I did with the founder. Oh, that was something I meant to mention at the beginning of the episode. I thought about this with her questions about the CGM. I released this week that Gin and I are recording my interview with Dr. Benjamin Bikman all about insulin. I knew it was a good interview, but I'm blown away by the response to it. The amount of feedback I'm getting from listeners, they're just obsessed. So many people have told me they listened to it multiple times that they've gone on the website and read the transcript that they immediately bought his book. For listeners that are interested in insulin that comes up all the time on the show, definitely check out that interview. It's two hours, but it's all things insulin, so that's really great.

Then, the Nutrisense CGM, the continuous glucose monitor, that is something that a lot of people seem to experience when they get the CGM is surprises in what their blood sugar is doing that they might not have anticipated. I don't know if it was Francesca who asked this exact question in my group or on my Instagram, but somebody asked me this exact question really recently, I think it was a different listener. A lot of people have experienced this as well, where they get the rising blood sugars in the evening, like while sleeping. It's hard to know because there could be a lot of things causing that. It could be a hormonal thing. I feel like it's most likely, in my opinion, probably a hormonal thing.

My suggestion, though, and this is not specific, but play around with your eating window and what you're eating and see how it affects things. Also focusing on your sleep, but it sounds like she's doing a lot to work on our sleep. She does the weighted blanket, the sleep mask, and the room cool. Oh, and she says she tends to wake up a lot. Yeah, it could be a sleep issue. Really just anything you can do to continue to support your sleep and then play around the food and the timing and see what happens, it sounds like she's an experimenter like myself. I will also put a link in the show notes to the interview that I did with the founder of Nutrisense, Kara Collier, because we did a really deep dive into CGMs. That was a lot of information. Gin, do you want to jump in.

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's great. It is so interesting now that we have CGMS, people were not measuring their blood glucose all night long. People just weren't doing it. People didn't know what it was doing. Now we're seeing it, it's hard to know what's normal, you know what I'm saying?

Melanie Avalon: When I first started using it, I was surprised by the very severe drops in blood sugar that I was getting, and that's what I was talking with another CGM app, Levels, about it. They were saying there's not actually like a lot of literature or studies on-- we don't actually know what is normal for nighttime blood sugar levels. It's what you just said.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because just thinking about it, when would they have been testing people's blood sugar? Well, not continuously during the night while you're sleeping.

Melanie Avalon: I think if there are surprises, I'm not 100% certain about this, but just from my conversation with Tom at Levels, it seems it's likely that if it does tend to be not what we expect, that people's levels might drop lower.

Gin Stephens: That's what mine did. Mine dropped lower than I thought it should, or would, or I was like, “Wow, that's a surprise.”

Melanie Avalon: That's the opposite problem that Francesca is experiencing. But, yeah, so definitely play around with things and see what happens, and definitely feel free to report back. I will say, though, she says it goes up to the 120s, which it's hours and hours after she's eaten, which is weird that it's going up that high, but that's not crazily high.

Gin Stephens: And she's eating low carb.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Which makes me think maybe it's a cortisol thing, because cortisol increases blood sugar and interferes with sleep, and she has trouble sleeping, so it could be that your cortisol is spiking at night, raising your blood sugar, waking you up. A lot of people find-- her doing low carb, they find when they bring back carbs, that they sleep better because of how it hormonally affects them. I know you're really liking doing the lower carb approach, but you might want to consider either trying carb ups, cyclical keto, so having a carb up day, or trying a higher carb, lower fat approach.

Gin Stephens: All right. Yep. Good stuff.

Melanie Avalon: One last thing. Also, she's doing a lot of exercise too. She's doing a lot, so she might actually benefit from some carbs is what I'm thinking.

Gin Stephens: Maybe so, yeah. All right.

Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Vicki. The subject is “Iron Man Training.” Vicki says, “I love your podcast and really enjoy listening to it on my long runs. I currently am doing 18:6 IF most days. I get up and ride my trainer from 3:10 AM to 4 AM.” Oh my goodness, sorry, this is just me. 3:10 AM, that's so early. She says, “I am at work at 4:40 and I'm off at 1 or 2. I work at Trader Joe's, so I'm always active. In January, I will start Iron Man training again, which means in addition to my short workout in the morning, I will be running, riding, or swimming for two hours after work, and one day a week will be riding for five to six hours and a long run, 15 plus miles one day a week. I've done seven Iron Man distances, so I am not new to the training, but I am new to IF during training, and I'm really not trying to lose weight as I am 5’4”, 125 pounds. Any suggestions? Should I eat something small before my afternoon workout? Maybe shorten my fasting to 16:8? I'm not really sure I can ride six hours losing lots of fluids with nothing but water. Maybe take that day off? I really love all the benefits of IF, but I'm not sure how I'm going to make it worthwhile training. I would love your thoughts, and if you do address this, can you please let me know what episode as I am only on episode 19. Thank you so much. You ladies are fabulous.” I will speak really quickly to her last thing. We don't email after when we have your question on the show, so I'm sorry, you have to keep listening to save-- if the question comes on. So hopefully, Vicki heard this.

Gin Stephens: All right, so I have an episode of Intermittent Fasting Stories for people to listen to if they're interested in long-distance endurance athletes who do intermittent fasting. I interviewed someone named Lisa Glick for Episode 121. If you just go to Google and type in Intermittent Fasting Stories Episode 121, or Intermittent Fasting Stories Lisa Glick, either of those will take you to where you can find or you can just go to any podcast app, find Episode 121. Lisa talks about how she trains and runs and how intermittent fasting fits in with all of that. She basically has found that she has better endurance and her recovery time is better, thanks to intermittent fasting. She talks about how she makes it work, so listen to that episode.

Melanie Avalon: What does she do?

Gin Stephens: I can't recall exactly step by step. That episode came out November 12. It means I talked to her in about probably August or September, so I remember that she talked about what she does, but I can't tell you specifically, exactly.

Melanie Avalon: Do you remember if she lengthened her window or anything like that?

Gin Stephens: I know that she does not use the goo and things like that. She does not use stuff like that. She runs and works out in the fasted state.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, awesome. I will speak really quickly to the fluids. If Vicki is looking for electrolytes, I really, really recommend-- and I don't know when this episode is coming out, we probably still have a code with them for-- I'm pretty sure we will, Robb Wolf makes LMNT, which is an electrolyte mix and their unflavored one is completely clean fast approved. It's just electrolytes and water and it was specifically calculated to address electrolyte needs for people fasting or on ketogenic diets. I really, really recommend it. This offer ended yesterday, but hopefully it's still up, I think it might be, I'm going to see if I can get it extended for February. The link is drinklmnt.com. D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IFPODCAST. At least in January, you could get a free sampler pack which included eight packets of LMNT, two raw unflavored, that's the one that's clean, fast friendly, two citrus, two raspberry and two orange. By the way, the citrus one apparently is really great for margaritas as a mix. Also, you just pay $5 shipping, and you will get that all free. If you don't like it, they'll also refund you the shipping. If that offer is not still going, I'm sure there's probably going to be some sort of offer at that link. That's definitely something to try.

Then, just my thoughts about it is, I definitely think Iron Man or really intense marathons and all of these athletic endeavors can be paired with fasting. I think fasting is really supportive to these type of things because of the fat-burning state that you are put into. I think most people don't need to pre-fuel with food. That said, I think if you are doing that, a lot of people probably will benefit what Vicki was thinking of extending the eating window, you might find it's just not possible and one meal a day to adequately support yourself based on your own personal needs. Then also, this is a little bit-- I don't know if this is controversial, but I do know a lot of people in the Ketogains community, when they're doing really intense specific training, they actually will take a tiny bit of pure dextrose before. I can't really speak to that, but if you go on Facebook and join the Ketogains Facebook group, there's a lot of talk in there about that. And that's if you're specifically ketogenic, I think.

Also, I actually really recommend Siim Land’s book, Stronger by Stress. I think it's that one that has a really good overview. One of his books, I'm pretty sure that one did, had a really good overview of how to with training and muscle building and different things, how to work with that with fasting. So, yes, we can put links to all of those resources in the show notes, but I think the biggest idea to tackle, is that you can definitely do stuff fasted, but you might need to adjust your eating window and everything surrounding it and your carb levels and definitely want to make sure that you're taking care of electrolytes.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and you can figure out what feels right to you. Listen to Lisa Glick’s episode, see what she does, tinker around with what you're doing, too. Maybe what works for Lisa is going to feel wrong for you. You’ve got to see.

Melanie Avalon: Also, I am just super in awe of Vicki. I was reading that question, I was like, “Oh my goodness. This is so much stuff.” Awesome.

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Gin Stephens: We have a question from Samantha Tuff, and the subject is “Whole Foods Sweeteners, Sugar versus Aspartame, Rick Johnson.” She says, “Hi ladies, I am still loving the podcast, the discussions and the banter. Thank you for educating me in such an enjoyable way. I'm so glad I stumbled into the IF lifestyle. I listened to Episode 149 on fructose and upon your recommendation, listen to Peter Attia’s interview with Rick Johnson. So much good info, but I was curious about your thoughts on his comparison between Coke and Diet Coke. His personal recommendation, including his choice for his own children, is diet soda over regular soda. This surprised me. We are a fairly antisugar family. We limit and restrict sweet intake as much as possible while still enjoying holidays and birthdays. At parties, our children choose cake as they understand it's a treat or an indulgence, but on the off chance that we indulge, I like to choose the best option possible. I was surprised to hear a doctor prefer the diet product. I would think that all of those sugar is not ideal, it is still a more natural option than aspartame. Your thoughts?

He also compares maple syrup to high fructose corn syrup. I thought it would be a more natural sweetener, therefore a better option for sweetening or baking. Do you have an opinion on honey? Basically, I want to educate my children, but still give them treats now and again, but with the best possible options. I would love your thoughts on different sweetener options used for baking special occasions, or heaven forbid everyday use. Thanks in advance for your time. All the best to you both. Thanks, Sam Tuff.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Sam. Thanks so much for your question. Rick Johnson, he is one of the major figures really in the anti-fructose movement, so he's very much not a fan of fructose.

Gin Stephens: Is he like never eat fruit also?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, he's not a fan of fruit much either. I actually really do want to interview him, because I'm like, seriously, I don't know why I'm so obsessed with fructose and fruit and think about it way more than I should. I feel the fructose studies are, I don't know-- I want to read his book and interview him and flesh out some of his thoughts. It's been a while since I've listened to that interview but I think I do remember him talking about that, so I'm just going to tell you my personal thoughts on everything and then you can do what resonates with you. In general, I think that I'm not a fan of artificial sweeteners at all.

Gin Stephens: Ditto, ditto, ditto.

Melanie Avalon: For a lot of reasons. By artificial sweeteners, I'm not including in that stevia, or monk fruit. I'm also not actually including like xylitol or erythritol. I'm talking about aspartame, saccharin.

Gin Stephens: NutraSweet is aspartame. Splenda is-- what is that one?

Melanie Avalon: Sucralose?

Gin Stephens: Yes, it's sucralose.

Melanie Avalon: And saccharin. Those three I'm not a fan of. I think the biggest problem with them is what they do to our gut microbiome potentially, just how they're processed by the body, they're not natural. They tell your body that sweet’s coming in, but then you're not eating sweets, so it's confusing. I just do not advocate those at all.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I agree to the point that there are very few things that I will not put into my body. If I know something has aspartame or sucralose, I will not put it into my body. I'll eat a Dorito, but I will not drink a diet soda.

Melanie Avalon: I'm not advocating this, because I don't think it's the ideal option. If I was forced for some reason, the only time I would choose maybe the artificial sweetener over sugar would be if I had just eaten a super, super high-fat diet. Maybe I was trying to do keto and I was eating all the fat, and then I was like, “Oh, I just need something sweet,” and I had to choose between something with sugar or something with an artificial sweetener, I think in that situation, I might choose an artificial sweetener just because I'm super concerned about combining all of that fat and sugar at the same time. Either way, they're not ideal and if that were the case, hopefully, I would choose something like stevia or monk fruit which in the eating window. I don't personally really eat stevia or monk fruit or xylitol or erythritol. For some people they can work, as far as honey and maple syrup and things like that. If I had to choose something to sweeten food with, I would you sweetening it with honey, maple syrup, coconut sugar, especially if it was a baked good situation where you're making your own-- and that's what she's asking about making treats and things like that. That's definitely what I would choose. Actually, because right now I'm reading Terry Wahls’ book-- was it in her book? I think it was. Some book that I was reading really recently, it was actually talking about the potential benefits of maple syrup. I don't remember if it was--

Gin Stephens: And raw honey. I eat raw honey.

Melanie Avalon: When it comes to honey, there actually are potentially a lot of benefits to honey. I think it depends on--

Gin Stephens: Like manuka honey.

Melanie Avalon: Manuka honey has potentially a ton of benefits. Most “normal honey” gets its benefits from the way that it creates hydrogen peroxide, I think, which is like an antiseptic in your body, so it can be antiviral and antifungal. Manuka honey in addition to that actually has some property that also does all that stuff, but it's not by the hydrogen peroxide. That's why it's called the-- what does it the non-hydrogen peroxide potential? It's called the non-peroxide antibacterial activity, which I always think is funny. Yeah, basically, everything I just said. I would choose when baking and things like that, the honey and the maple syrup, coconut sugar, I would just avoid artificial sweeteners at all costs. If you want to go the sweet route that doesn't have actual sugar, I would choose-- not while fasting, but in the eating window, I would choose stevia, monk fruit, potentially erythritol or xylitol, those last two can create GI distress in some people.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yes. The sugar alcohols. Yes, they did for me. [laughs] Oh, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Some people tolerate them really well, and especially in baking, I think they can be subbed out-- one of them, either both of them or one of them is like a one to one sub out for sugar.

Gin Stephens: I think erythritol is.

Melanie Avalon: Erythritol? Yeah. There's also some blends that are like erythritol, monk fruit. There's a lot of different, if you go to Whole Foods, there's an array of options. I think it's really just about finding what works for you. Also, that you might find the benefit of if you're baking, having some of the honey and maple syrup, but then maybe also getting some of the sweet potential by baking with substitutes as well. I'm just so haunted by this fructose question, I think, because the Ray Peat people are so like pro fructose, and I'm opposite ideas.

Gin Stephens: I just have a really hard time with anybody who claims that real foods are so terrible, like fruit. I have a really hard time with the claim that humans are not supposed to eat fruit, or any other real food that people have been eating for thousands of years. I have a really hard time with that. Maybe in the modern world where everything is crazy, but there's a lot of difference between high fructose corn syrup and an apple.

Melanie Avalon: Huge difference.

Gin Stephens: There's so many comments. I was reading something today, and it talked about-- I mean, we know about vitamins, we know about certain phytochemicals, we know about certain things in foods, but we know so little about what's really in that apple that's good for us. We haven't isolated and identified all the things. There are thousands of compounds in that apple that are doing things in our bodies that are positive. You can't be like, “Well, that compound is the one good one and that's the one bad one,” no. It's synergistic. It works together. Dr. Fung says it really well in The Obesity Code. He says the antidote is packed in there with it, the antidote to the poison. Your body knows what to do with the whole apple. Whereas if you just give it high fructose corn syrup, your body's like, “What is this nonsense?”

Melanie Avalon: I think probably the reason that fruit gets so demonized is because the studies on high fructose corn syrup are-- what it does is really, really terrible. I think it's really easy to want to extend that to fruit because we think fruit and fructose, but it's just not the same in real food form. Send me one if you find one, I have not found a study showing problems with fruit, in its natural form.

Gin Stephens: To be honest, if I was going to give what something to my child right now in 2021, if I had a kid over and wanted to give them a soda, I would actually choose-- instead, I would just give them a flavored sparkling water. They have so many of those now. A good high quality or a kombucha. Something like that.

Melanie Avalon: A nonalcoholic one.

Gin Stephens: Well, definitely, I would not choose an alcoholic kombucha, but I think there's so many things like that you can give them. I would not give them either a regular Coke or a Diet Coke. If I absolutely wanted to give them something like a Coke, it would be like a Mexican Coke because they have real sugar, not corn syrup.

Melanie Avalon: The Ray Peat people, they're actually really pro-fueling on sugar. They actually drink Mexican Coke.

Gin Stephens: Pepsi Throwback, I don't even know if they still make that. It was Pepsi Throwback, and you could buy it everywhere. It was made with real sugar. I bought that for years. I haven't bought it in years now though, but for a period of time that's what I chose when I wanted to have a soda, Pepsi Throwback.

Melanie Avalon: I remember listening to that interview with Rick Johnson. One of the most fascinating takeaways that I took from it was-- that's where I learned that fructose is the only sugar that actually costs calories to use because it has to be converted to something and then converted again, and then there's like an energy loss in that process. Which was really interesting. Which I remember he said that, and I was like, “Well, that makes me feel like a really high fruit diet.” [laughs] -the way to go.

Gin Stephens: Especially if it's real fruit. You're eating the whole fruit, I think. I think that's important. That's what another thing I got out of The Obesity Code, eat the whole fruit.

Melanie Avalon: There was also something about, if you just immediately burn sugar or carbs, it releases or provides X amount of energy, but if you convert it to glycogen and then burn it later, both of those conversion processes burn energy to do.

Gin Stephens: Okay, [unintelligible [00:57:50] That makes sense. But, yeah, I actually use maple syrup and honey in baking. My bread recipe has honey in it. I use raw honey, and I made these amazing pecan bars for-- Oh, by the way, how do you say that? I bet you say pe-caan, do you say pee-can?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: I made pecan bars that were sweetened with maple syrup over the holidays. They were so good. They were on like a shortbread crust, instead of like a pie. It was like pecan pie, but instead it was bars, and it was on a shortbread crust with maple syrup instead of corn syrup. Lots and lots of pecans. It was absolutely delicious.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just searching through Terry Wahls’ book. I don't think it was in her books. So, I don't want to misquote her. I don't remember-- It was something I was reading recently about maple syrup. It's probably going to come to me once we hang up, but it was some unique benefit in it.

Gin Stephens: I will say that Christmas morning, we were at my dad's and my stepmother had made breakfast and she had this orange juice. One of my nieces was like, “This orange juice tastes really different.” Chad had some and I tasted it and I was like, “Oh my God, what's wrong with this juice?” It was the diet juice, and it was sweetened with artificial sweeteners. I was like, “Stop drinking that, Chad.” [crosstalk] Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It was orange juice. Do they take out the sugar and add in?

Gin Stephens: I don't know what they do but it was diet orange juice. Oh my God, it tasted like poison.

Melanie Avalon: That is crazy.

Gin Stephens: I don't drink orange juice. We don't have it in the house. For example, if I was really sick, when I'm sick, I crave orange juice.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe it's because of the vitamin C?

Gin Stephens: Probably. I crave orange juice with pulp. If I had a sore throat, I would send Chad to the grocery store to get like a high-quality orange juice with the pulp in it and I would just drink it. That just makes me feel so much better. That stuff, it was orange watery grossness with artificial something.

Melanie Avalon: I think we talked about this before.

Gin Stephens: What?

Melanie Avalon: The one fruit that like I loathe.

Gin Stephens: Is it oranges?

Melanie Avalon: Like instant headache. I cannot even.

Gin Stephens: Oranges gives you a headache? I don't remember that.

Melanie Avalon: I remember growing up, I didn't understand how people could eat oranges because you know when you're a kid, you feel like if you're reacting that way other people must react. In my head, it was oranges, headaches. Instant headache. If I think about an orange, like I'm thinking about orange right now and I'm getting a headache. There must be some compound in it that my body hates.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, there must be.

Melanie Avalon: Like loathes. Oh, I thought what I was going to say really quick, I have a theory that I want to share with you.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: It never occurred to me, but I'm wondering if this is the case. Often, well, not all the time. I have seen people report and somebody reported this in my Facebook group the other day, which is what made me think of it. Sometimes, people will do like whole foods diets and they'll feel they aren't ever really satisfied and then they'll binge on conventional food, they'll feel full for the first time. Have you seen that? I see that a lot.

Gin Stephens: No. You're saying that they switch over to a whole foods diet, they don't feel satisfied?

Melanie Avalon: They don't even have to binge, but they'll eat like-- usually it's like a flour-based thing, like cake or cookies or something, and then they'll feel full.

Gin Stephens: I wonder if someone has-- if they're limiting natural starches. For example, for me, I talked about that I'm doing the Zoe from PREDICT 3, I'm eating according to my recommendations. If I don't eat something starchy, I don't feel satisfied. Beans, that's why I'm eating so many beans because I feel so full from beans. If I were eating everything else, but no beans, I think I'd be hungry.

Melanie Avalon: I'll have to see. I feel like sometimes this also happens with people who are eating sweet potatoes and stuff like that. It could be that. My initial theory used to always be that it was a stress response thing. Maybe they're doing low carb, and then they have this high carb, like floury-type thing and they finally feel full. It's an insulin and a stress response thing. I was thinking about it, I wonder if it's because flour is fortified with vitamins. Maybe if sometimes we're not absorbing nutrients, we're not getting enough nutrients, and maybe that that high dose of vitamins. I know they're synthetic, but in a concentrated form. I wonder if that hit temporarily makes you feel full. Nobody's ever brought this up, but I was just thinking about it that maybe that's the case.

Gin Stephens: The vitamins, because you weren't absorbing that? That’s an interesting theory.

Melanie Avalon: Fortified foods.

Gin Stephens: I don't know. I am very skeptical about the fortification itself of those things, because I'm not sure it's a good quality fortification, you know what I'm saying? I'm not sure our bodies can really absorb them.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think it's a good thing at all.

Gin Stephens: I don't know that your body's like, “Oh, good, the vitamins and nutrients I was looking for.”  I'm not sure those are well absorbed and utilized.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just wondering if maybe sometimes if people have been following a whole foods diet for a long time, if they're lacking in one of the vitamins and if their body is really craving that vitamin, if there is the potential that when they eat this floury food that they are actually-- because of gut issues and nutrient depletion of modern food, if they're just able to temporarily maybe absorb that vitamin and they get that.

Gin Stephens: Definitely is filling some kind of void, obviously. For me, it's that my body has to have starches for satiety, like I have to. The starchy beans. By the way, guess how many grams of fiber I ate yesterday? I hate to count anything, but you have to put it in the app to get your score. I want you to just guess how many grams of fiber I ate.

Melanie Avalon: It's probably the grams of protein that I-- was it like 200?

Gin Stephens: No, it was 73. I was like, I wonder what the recommendation is, I don't know. The recommendation is 35, and it's like, “Be cautious if you go over 70, that could be too much fiber.”

Melanie Avalon: I wonder how much I eat every day because I eat so much fruit. I feel I probably eat 40 or 50.

Gin Stephens: Well, 73. I ate 73 grams of fiber yesterday. I had lentils at one point, then later I had black beans.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. We are so different.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I feel so full and satisfied. It's really important. It's weird that I'm not having-- it because my body doesn't clear the fat well, so I'm not having-- I would normally throw some cheese and some sour cream on there, but it's always like, “Nope, too much fat.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Is that app-- Is it just for the study? Can anybody download it?

Gin Stephens: You have to have done the study because that's how it does. Yeah, because it doesn't know what to recommend. It's personalized to me. That's what's so interesting. A bunch of the moderators have done it as well and we're comparing our scores and they're different. My score for an avocado might be different than my friend, Roxy's, score for an avocado, or also, how much fat my body can handle is different than how much, because Roxy is-- she clears that well, so she gets different scores. She can put more avocado and eggs and whatever on her whatever it is she's eating, than I can. I can eat it, it's just a matter of the way I combine it and stack it. Like last night, I was having black beans and I wanted to put a whole avocado on top, and the meal scored high. When I put it into my day, it lowered my whole day score because it was too much fat all stacked together. I had to go in and instead of a whole avocado, I just ate half of the avocado, and then it was higher.

Melanie Avalon: Have you had nutritional yeast?

Gin Stephens: I have.

Melanie Avalon: That's why I thought about the fortified thing because I recently bought it and I am blown away.

Gin Stephens: Do you feel good eating it?

Melanie Avalon: Well, yes and no. The thing I'm blown away by is the nutrient panel. I'm just blown-- I'm like, “This is the highest source of all of these vitamins that I think I've ever--" I think it might be the most nutrient-dense food that there is, now that I think about it. I might research this. It's just vitamins, it's like all it is. It's like these yeasts just crave vitamins.

Gin Stephens: It really adds a great, like umami flavor to thing.

Melanie Avalon: Tastes divine.

Gin Stephens: Yep. I had it recently when Cal and Kate were here. Kate's vegetarian and one of the meals that I got from Green Chef, it was a vegetarian meal and the nutritional yeast was in something,

Melanie Avalon: It's been making me feel a lot fuller. The thing is, I feel I get a little bit of brain fog from it. I know it's a deactivated yeast. It's not like candida or anything like that. People can still react to it as if it were an active yeast. I feel it might give me a little bit of brain fog, but I will say for listeners, I'll put a link in the show notes to the brand that I've been buying because you want to make sure that you don't get the fortified version because most nutritional yeast, like almost all of it, is fortified because it's basically super high. Like I said, I'm blown away. All the B vitamins except B12, iron, molybdenum, selenium, one serving is like 40% of your iron. It's crazy. They're usually fortified with B12, because they want it to be a complete B supplement thing for vegans. I really, really don't recommend fortification with B12, which is folic acid, because it's not properly used by the body, it can interfere with their own use of B12 or folate. There's two brands. Well, the brand I really like is [unintelligible [01:07:33] I'll put a link to it in the show notes. Sorry, that was a tangent. That's why I thought though that maybe there was something to do with vitamins and fortified foods.

Gin Stephens: Maybe that's an interesting theory. I don't know. I just know that. If I don't get--

Melanie Avalon: Starch.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I just can't be satisfied.

Melanie Avalon: Have you seen Hamilton?

Gin Stephens: I have not. [unintelligible [01:07:53] said that before. I have not seen Hamilton. I don't like musicals.

Melanie Avalon: I know there's a song called Satisfied. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. The show notes which will have a full transcript will be at ifpodcast.com/Episode198. You can submit your own questions to the podcast. Just go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. Or, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. You can follow us on Instagram. I saw that Gin put a picture of her sauna on Instagram. I am about to upload today a video. I'm going to do a video on how to do Wim Hof breathing. So I am loving Instagram. It's so fun, so you can follow us there by our names. I think that is everything. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on this show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jan 24

Episode 197: Weight Set Point, Indigestion, Hydrochloric Acid (HCL), Fasting Burps, Coordinating Family Meals on OMAD, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 197 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To DrinkLMNT.Com/Ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To DrinkLMNT.Com/Ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!!

3:50 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

The Cancer Code: A Revolutionary New Understanding of a Medical Mystery (Dr. Jason Fung)

#140 – Gerald Shulman, M.D., Ph.D.: A masterclass on insulin resistance—molecular mechanisms and clinical implications

19:15 - INSIDETRACKER: Go To MelanieAvalon.Com/GetInsideTracker And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

21:40 - Listener Q&A: Becky - how do I know my maintenance weight?

Check Out Shapa Scale And Use The Promo Code IFStories To Save $20

Join Melanie's Facebook Group At Facebook.com/groups/paleoOMAD For A Weekly Episode GIVEAWAY, And To Discuss And Learn About All Things Biohacking! All Conversations Welcome!

37:40 - Listener Q&A: Samantha - Fasting Burps/Supplements in Canada?

ATRANTIL: Use The Link Lovemytummy.com/ifp With The Code IFP, To Get 10% Off!

FOOD SENSE GUIDE: Get Melanie's App At Melanieavalon.com/FoodSenseGuide To Tackle Your Food Sensitivities! Food Sense Includes A Searchable Catalogue Of 300+ Foods, Revealing Their Gluten, FODMAP, Lectin, Histamine, Amine, Glutamate, Oxalate, Salicylate, Sulfite, And Thiol Status. Food Sense Also Includes Compound Overviews, Reactions To Look For, Lists Of Foods High And Low In Them, The Ability To Create Your Own Personal Lists, And More!

47:35 - biOptimizers: Go To bioptimizers.com/ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save 10% Any Order!

49:20 - Listener Q&A: Jennifer - “Question”

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 197 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Here's what's going on. When you eat a low-carb diet, your insulin levels drop. Low insulin, in turn, lowers the production of the hormone, aldosterone. Now, aldosterone is made in the kidneys and it helps you retain sodium. So, low aldosterone on a keto diet makes you lose sodium at a rapid rate. Even if you are consciously consuming electrolytes, you might not be getting enough. In particular, you need electrolytes, especially sodium and potassium, in order for nerve impulses to properly fire. Robb Wolf, who as you guys know is my hero in the holistic health world, worked with the guys at Ketogains to get the exact formulation for electrolyte supplements to formulate LMNT Recharge, so you can maintain ketosis and feel your best. LMNT Recharge has no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no junk. They're used by three Navy SEALs teams. They are the official hydration partner to Team USA weightlifting, they're used by multiple NFL teams and so much more.

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I am loving LMNT and I think you guys will too. Again, this is completely free. You have nothing to lose. Just go to drinklmnt.com/if podcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IF Podcast. And I'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before you jump in. Are you concerned about aging? Well, thankfully, fasting is super incredible for its anti-aging benefits. It activates genes in your body called sirtuins, which repair your body and help extend lifespan. Also, during the fast, your body can clean up a lot of harmful chemicals which may be taxing your detoxification systems. In fact, the reason people go gray is because their detox systems start producing a lot of hydrogen peroxide when dealing with toxins. Do you know where a lot of those chemicals come from? Your skincare and makeup. As it turns out, there are 1000s of compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup that Europe has banned due to their toxic nature and the US has banned less than 10. When you put these on your skin every single day through your skincare makeup, you're adding to your body's burden and likely aging your skin faster.

Thankfully, you can easily clean up your skincare with a company called Beautycounter. They make incredible products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about every single ingredient that you put on. They also have an amazing anti-aging line called Countertime. Friends, this is a game-changer. It's full of active ingredients which nourish and support your skin, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, and support a beautiful glow. It also has a safe alternative to retinol. So you can get all of the anti-aging benefits of retinol without any of the toxic effects of retinol, because, yes, that stuff is toxic. Guys, put it away now.

You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. If you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. Also definitely get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away so many free things on that list. So definitely check it out.

Lastly, if you anticipate making safe skincare a part of your future, just like Gin and I do? Definitely become a band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for safe skincare. You get 10% back on all of your purchases, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift, that costs way more than the price of the membership. It's completely worth it. Friends, are you fasting clean inside and out? You can with Beautycounter. Again, that link is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome, this is Episode number 197 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm great. I am officially starting to work on my next book.

Melanie Avalon: Ooh. That is exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is exciting. It is not an intermittent fasting book.

Melanie Avalon: Last time when you wrote Fast. Feast. Repeat-- that book you did start completely afresh, right? Or did you already have anything written?

Gin Stephens: Well, when I started writing that one, I already had a complete outline of it. Yes, I had a complete outline that my literary agent sent out to different publishing houses. Then one of them bought it. It was St. Martin's Press of Macmillan, and so that's how that went. But this time, when you're already a published author with a publishing house, they get-- well, I guess it depends on your agreement. But they get first right of refusal, I guess, I don't know if that's the right publishing lingo, but they get the first chance to say yes to my next book, and my next book--

Melanie Avalon: Who get dibs basically.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. We pitched a few things in a casual way. My editor’s like, “Yeah, write that one.” That's what I'm doing. I'm so excited. I can't talk about much yet, but more to come. I have a very tight deadline.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you do?

Gin Stephens: I do.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. Have you written anything? Or is it like, you’ve got to just start everything now.

Gin Stephens: I’ve got to just start. I've been thinking about it for months. It develops in my mind. Actually, here's what's really funny. I'm not going to announce what it's about yet, but this is based on concepts that I really wanted to write about almost 20 years ago.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I did not know that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I actually have an outline of a book I wanted to write. It's not the same book, but it was a similar concept. I have it from like, gosh, probably almost 20 years ago, like I said. It's a topic that's near and dear to my heart. Just general teaser there.

Melanie Avalon: My correlation to that is Taylor Swift and her most recent album, one of the lines she wanted to write in the song since high school.

Gin Stephens: Love it. Yeah, this is not a topic that's new to my heart, but I haven't written a book about it yet. Like I said, that outline that is in this notebook from so long ago.

Melanie Avalon: I am very excited.

Gin Stephens: This book is not going to be anything like I would have written 20 years ago, obviously. But, yeah, I know, Melanie knows the topic, so I'm very excited about it. People in the intermittent fasting community, I think, will really like it, but also it'll have a broader appeal.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited.

Gin Stephens: Yay, me, too. I have a lot of work to do. I ordered things that I need. I'm like one of those people that needs the right tools. I'm very old school, so I got I've ordered some new toner cartridges for my printer because I do a ton of printing because I like to work from paper. I've ordered some highlighters.

Melanie Avalon: You print out what you're doing and then you--

Gin Stephens: I need paper. I’ve got to have paper. I have old school highlighters. I get those little post-it flags so you can flag things. I got a big file folder, like accordion folder, because I like to file the papers by topic. [laughs] That's how I work.

Melanie Avalon: That's legit.

Gin Stephens: It is. Like I said, I'm old school. When I write my dissertation-- Oh, actually, here's a funny story. Right this today was the day that we're recording this that I submitted my dissertation for approval, it showed up in my Facebook memories.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Isn't that funny? It was either 2008 or 2009, so that's been a long time. When I was writing my dissertation, I just had piles of papers.

Melanie Avalon: It's crazy to think how long Facebook has been around.

Gin Stephens: Facebook, I know.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know why I feel like-- I don't feel like it's still new, but it doesn't feel like it's been around for like that part of my life that long.

Gin Stephens: So, yup, I was new to Facebook, it was 2008. Funny story-- well, I guess it's not a funny story, but I had been in the hospital for 10 days with Cal working on my dissertation, finishing it up because he had just had appendicitis, really bad and it ruptured, and then he had to have a second surgery. We were just there forever, but we spent 10 days in the hospital, got out the day before Christmas Eve, but it really allowed me to finish things up. But Facebook was new to me back then.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, actually, now that you say that, I remember when I first signed up for Facebook, and it was 2008. Yeah, it would have been 2008. So, that is correct.

Gin Stephens: It was 2008 for me, and it's so much fun looking at those memories, but it also is funny that even now so many years later, that's still how I research with my piles of papers and my highlighters, and that's just-- I learn better on paper. I think that we actually have research that shows that the tactile experience of paper, it's different than reading electronically.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It definitely is. I'm just thinking about all the ways I consume media researching everything, like audiobooks versus Kindle versus the physical books. It does feel different.

Gin Stephens: If I really need to learn something, I have to have the paper. I really do better with it. I think that there's, like I said, research that supports that with kids as well. So I hope that we don't think that we should do away with paper books.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. No, 100%. I have an update.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yay. What's your update?

Melanie Avalon: There was something I meant to say, last episode I interviewed Jason Fung.

Gin Stephens: Yay.

Melanie Avalon: It's so exciting. I mentioned you a lot on that show. Just because I was saying that, I mean, we talk about him all the time on this show.

Gin Stephens: Did he say Gin Stephens, who is that?

Melanie Avalon: No, he did not. [laughs] I realize I just mentioned you, I didn't even say Gin Stephens. I just mentioned you, I assumed he already knew who you were. He probably does. But I remember after I said it, I was like, “Oh, I guess I just sort of assumed that he knows who you are.” Yeah, it was really, really great. It's funny because when I first started my other show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, I really wanted to bring him on. I assumed at that time that when I brought him on, it would be about fasting, because that's his thing, but his newest book, as I mentioned before and as listeners might know, is about cancer. So, that was what the episode was about. It was really, really fascinating, really. I feel listeners will learn a lot.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's fabulous. I will always be a Jason Fung fan.

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. He's so nice, too.

Gin Stephens: He really is. Yeah, he seems like such a nice guy.

Melanie Avalon: He's just a really nice person. So that was quite an honor. I have one other really tiny little thing. You know how last episode we were talking about, the listener had the question about not being able to handle carbs and glucose. We were talking about like fructose and glucose and glycogen and fat and all of that. I mentioned that I was listening to an episode with Peter Attia that basically went deep, deep, deep into the metabolism of all those things. After we finished recording, I was like, “You know what, I should probably finish listening to this episode.” I did. You know how I always talk about that when they do studies on people overeating carbohydrates that really-- it's only really a tiny amount that becomes fat?

Gin Stephens: Yep. And often that their metabolism increases-- [crosstalk] Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: The speaker who I really am going to try to get on my show, he's a professor at Yale. So, I emailed him last night to his professor email, we shall see. He was talking about that process, but then he was actually saying that and people who are insulin resistant and who have metabolic issues that, it can double like the normal rate of fat from carbs.

Gin Stephens: That makes total sense though, think about that. If you have really, really high levels of insulin, all the time, your body is primed to store more things.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so I felt bad that I felt good because he said that I was like, “Oh, man.” I was like, I've been like saying this whole time, and then Peter Attia asked him. He literally asked him about the studies I had read, he said, “You know that they do these studies that test with overfeeding carbs and it really isn't that much of a change.” Peter wanted to clarify, like, “Is that not the case in insulin resistance?” And he said, “Yeah, it does seem to be more.” I felt a little bit better that I guess, Peter Attia was thinking the same thing as me. The good thing is, he said it can double like the normal amount. The normal amount still isn't that high. It's still I think much harder to gain a lot of extra fat from excess carbs compared to extra fat, given the context.

Gin Stephens: Most people do not just eat excess carbs in isolation, and that is why people are so confused because if you say, “Hey, I eat too many carbs,” so tell me what that looks like. And they'll start naming things like pizza and doughnuts and french fries, which are carbs. Also, fat, people just really are confused by what a carb is, like a cookie. If you said, “Is this a carb or a fat?” People would probably say, “Oh, that cookie is a carb.” No.” It is carbs, but it also has a ton of fat. That's I think what really is confusing. People very rarely eat a high carb, low fat diet.

Melanie Avalon: Where it's actually low fat.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: They didn't discuss this specifically, but I would love to bring them on my podcast. I could just pick his brain so much, but I do wonder, in a really insulin resistant person with metabolic syndrome, I wonder what it would look like if they only ate carbs and way overate, compared to an insulin sensitive person, how much fat could be created?

Gin Stephens: Here's the study we need. We need to compare two groups of people doing the same exact thing, people who are metabolically healthy and lean compared to people who have metabolic syndrome and give them the exact same ratio, and see what happens. That'd be fascinating. You and I could design studies.

Melanie Avalon: We could.

Gin Stephens: I totally could. I joke about this in Feast Without Fear, my second book. I taught elementary kids how to do science fair projects. Controlling your variables is like science fair 101. Fourth graders can get it. I remember reading them when we were doing our science fair unit one year, I read them a nutritional study and the children were able to find the flaws, fourth graders. They're like, “You can't do that. They didn't control the variables” I'm like, “Yes, I get it. Yes.”

Melanie Avalon: It's so hard to in a free-living situation.

Gin Stephens: Well, it is. It's easier with paper airplanes than it is with humans.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The other thing I wanted to clarify, I think this is what I said last time, but I wanted to double clarify because I finished listening to it. His primary theory, this guy, who I really want to interview is that in insulin resistance, first, it's not the liver that becomes insulin resistant, per se, it's the muscles. The muscles throughout our body stop adequately taking up glucose, like blood sugar, sugar from our food, and then the liver becomes insulin resistant. And then everything just goes from there, way worse.

Gin Stephens: All gunked up from there.

Melanie Avalon: He was talking about the massive benefits of exercise for insulin resistance, that is something I was familiar with. But I think I'm realizing more and more how important exercise is because there is non-insulin-dependent glucose uptake into the muscles. Even if you are insulin resistant and can't get glucose into your muscles through the normal mechanism of insulin, you can through exercise. That's why one reason it can be so, so important.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's fascinating. Makes sense. It totally makes sense. Our bodies are amazing. Man, they're not just little simple in/out boxes, there's so much going on.

Melanie Avalon: Also, the evolutionary benefit. Insulin resistance is probably an evolutionary thing. It's our bodies trying to protect us from starvation.

Gin Stephens: Everything our bodies do is to protect us. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It has good intentions, it just goes all wrong.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because we're doing all these wacky things that we think are the right things to do, and they're the opposite. And our body's like, “Let me help you with that.”

Melanie Avalon: And like the body Setpoint, which the interview coming up this week. Good times.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, this show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode197. I'll put links to all that stuff that we just talked about.

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Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yep, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off, we have a question from Becky. The subject is, “How do I know my maintenance weight?” Becky says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, I love your show. Super fun. Thanks. I've been fasting for four and a half months. Now, I usually do a five-hour window. But I am not super strict and sometimes open it up to eight hours, and sometimes tighten it to three. I clean fast all of my fast. It worked fairly well, and I love how I feel, but my results are interesting/confusing. I started at 182 pounds, I'm 5’8” with an athletic build, and very quickly got to the mid 170s. As the weeks went on, my weight loss slowed, though. Interesting to look back at the Happy Scale app and see that it was 2 pounds per week initially, then 1, then 0.7, then 0.5, then 0.3, etc. Now for weeks, it has been point one pound per week. Well, actually for the past couple of weeks, it has been no loss at all, because I've been eating Christmas goodies. Currently, I'm hovering between 168.5 and 170 pounds.

My question is this, how do I know what my final/maintenance weight will be? When I got married 12 years ago, I weighed 167.5 pounds. I looked fantastic and I was super proud of myself. Like I said, I have an athletic build. I've always been a competitive swimmer. I've competed in triathlons and other races for fun. I'm happy with the way I look, and my husband tells me I don't need to lose any more, but I wonder if I should be shooting for a lower weight? Or is it even possible? I wear a size 8, so I think perhaps I'm just a very dense person. Your thoughts/insights would be appreciated. Thank you so much, Becky.”

Gin Stephens: This is such a great question because so many of us get hung up on that number on the scale, which is why I ended up throwing my scale away. I've told this story a million times. I haven't seen a number on the scale since 2017. I haven't seen a number. The question is, how do I know my maintenance weight? The thing that I think is so important is that you can't know. I've seen so many people really, really stress over a number. They get in their minds that they have to weigh--  let's say for you. You said you weighed 167.5, Becky, and you looked fantastic, and you're proud of yourself and your husband thinks you look great where you are right this minute, but you remember 167.5 is a golden weight for you. Even though right now you weigh between 168.5 and 170, which by the way is statistically you're there at the same weight because weight goes up and down. You're just right in there. Even with a margin of error, if you have a different scale, you could weigh exactly the same amount in your scales just weighing you differently. Does that make sense, Melanie? Do you understand what I'm trying to say? There's like a standard error of measurement with any tool or device or anything. Maybe you're 168 to 170 now is the same as your other scale was at 167.5.

My point is that if you decided you had to see 167.5 on the scale in order to be happy, I think you'd be setting yourself up for long term failure and disappointment just because our bodies are naturally going to fluctuate, and so much of it depends on our body composition. If you're super muscular which you say that you are, you've got that athletic build, and you feel great in your body, and you look great in your clothes in your size that you like, I would 100% forget about the number. You could even gain weight on the scale, and lose fat and be leaner, but your weight is higher on the scale. I think you're now at the point where your scale number is meaningless.

Right now take photos of yourself wearing an outfit that you feel great in or even if you have a pair of pants that are a little tight, make those your honesty pants, take photos from all the different angles with those pants on. Then three months from now, take the photos again and compare. I bet you'll find you're a little bit leaner three months from now, but your weight may not change at all on the scale. I would consider that you're right now in your maintenance range, and let your body do what it does with body recomposition over time. You have my permission to never worry about a number again. It's why I love the Shapa scale so much, I just worry about what my overall color trend is doing, and I don't have to see a number. What do you have to say, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I love that. I'm just pondering how crazy technology and the concept of time is because I am going to refer Becky to an episode that I have not recorded but will have aired two days ago or three days ago, last Friday. When this episode comes out, this is a Monday, the Friday that just passed, I will have aired that episode about Setpoint. Although I haven't even recorded it yet, but I anticipate.

Gin Stephens: We're time traveling fasters.

Melanie Avalon: I anticipate I will be talking about a lot of this because what's really interesting is she talks about she saw a very consistent weight loss trend on the Happy Scale with the two pounds, and then 0.7, then 0.5, then 0.3, and now 0.1. And that's something at least Jonathan Bailor who I'm interviewing, he has a documentary coming out in his book, Setpoint something. The word ‘setpoint’ is in the title. As you’re losing weight, a lot of things are happening, so there's less of you, so you lost weight. Automatically, your daily energy expenditure automatically is not going to be as high because the more you weigh the higher daily energy expenditure, so there's that, because we don't know at all, but before I say all of this, I'm not saying, Becky, I agree with everything Gin said, I'm just going into this concept of what might be happening with weight loss slowing down as you lose weight.

The second thing is depending on what you're eating, and depending on your fasting habits and everything like that, a lot of people who are doing conventional typical dieting, so this really doesn't even probably apply to Becky, the body does perceive the weight loss is a negative that it has to combat. So, the metabolism can also slow down so it becomes harder and harder to lose weight, the more and more you lose weight. There is this idea of setpoints that the body reaches where it doesn't really want to lose much weight beyond that. And if you think about it, they also doesn't want to gain much weight beyond that.

Gin Stephens: That's exactly right.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's something he was talking about to reframe, like--

Gin Stephens: Exactly. We've got some people in the group that really just have like, I was talking about. I don't think I really explored it, but they want to see a number on the scale that's-- I don’t know, [unintelligible [00:28:44] 10 pounds lower than they are right now. No matter what they do, they can't see that magic number. Their body is happy where they are. It's not gaining, it's not losing. It's just this is where your body is happy. I really think we need to embrace a point where it becomes easy for our bodies to maintain, and you don't have to stress about it.

Melanie Avalon: You can reframe the setpoints as really working in your favor. Most of the studies that they do on setpoints, people who are chronically dieted down their bodies try really really hard to gain back the weight. Then people who are chronically overfed. I mean, most people gain weight, some people gain a lot of weight. Some people barely gain any weight, but regardless of the amount of weight gain, the body-- I'm pretty sure in all of the studies the body makes compensatory adaption. If you eat way, way over your calories, it's very unlikely that your metabolism is going to slow down from that. You're most likely going to burn more, even if it's not burning enough obviously to mitigate the weight gain, the body still fights it. There'll be a lot more information once I actually record that show, which I'm recording in three days from now, I think. I think Gin answered it really well, because Becky sounds happy with her body.

Gin Stephens: She talks about how when she weighed practically the exact same thing when she got married 12 years ago and looked fantastic. I really think, Becky, you are in your maintenance range, and that's the point I want to keep hammering home. Maintenance range. We're recording this, it's almost New Year's Eve. We're not quite out of the holiday season, I'm pretty sure right now, I'm higher on my maintenance range than I was before Thanksgiving, but that's okay. I am very sure my weight goes up and down within that range and has for all these years. I'm not having to buy bigger clothes and not having to get all new, smaller clothes. Focus on that range idea, instead of a number.

Melanie Avalon: That's one thing I want to ask him is what is the typical amount of pounds for that range? Because he did say in the book that it's about 20 pounds?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.

Melanie Avalon: That it's pretty hard.

Gin Stephens: I don't think mine fluctuates 20.

Melanie Avalon: Sorry, not that it fluctuates 20 pounds, but there's a 20-pound range that your body is going to fight to stay within.

Gin Stephens: Okay,

Melanie Avalon: So, it's going to be really, really hard to gain more than 20 pounds, it's going to be really, really hard to lose more than 20 pounds. Well, depending on what you're doing. Just basically that that might be the window, no pun intended that you have to work with.

Gin Stephens: That makes sense. It makes me really sad when someone's fighting over 10 pounds, it's really, really hard to force your body to be lower than your body wants to be. I am very lucky, and I know it. But I know that my setpoint, if you will, of where I am right now is where my body likes to be because I've maintained it over all these years, since I lost the weight with intermittent fasting. But if I decided I needed to see 10 pounds down, I would have to work really, really, really hard to do it. Could I do it? I don't know if I could do it. I don't think I could lose 10 more pounds and maintain there without really being miserable. So, I want to be happy.

Melanie Avalon: That's something I do really want to ask him. I've heard this theory floating around that if, and I asked for in my Facebook group, which everybody should join, IF Biohackers. I asked what questions people had about setpoint, and a lot of people wanted to know, there's this idea out there that if you hold a weight for a certain amount of time that your body accepts that new setpoint.

Gin Stephens: Research has shown that in general, we don't know a ton about setpoint, Maybe he's going to say a lot of things that are new, that would be exciting. When I was researching setpoint for Fast. Feast. Repeat., it's still a little nebulous, what you can do to lower that setpoint, that whole diet that I did that was so crazy, the Shangri-La Diet, where you're chugging the oil, his theory. He was a doctor that wrote it. His theory was that when you break the calorie association with taste, or something or other, that it would lower your setpoint. I'm like, “I'm going to lower my setpoint. I'm chugging this oil.” That was so funny.

Melanie Avalon: I'm also thinking the calories in, calories out model is just so not comprehensive. One of the other things in that Peter Attia episode that the guest was talking about which-- this is something I've been familiar with, as well. This is a banned drug that nobody should take because people died from it. But have you heard of DNP?

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just really fascinated by this. It was one of the first anti-obesity drugs, and it was in the 1930s. The way it worked was it basically increased, it's called like uncoupling. Basically, it made cells just burn energy as heat. It basically just told yourself to just burn calories and not-- basically just ratcheted up people's metabolisms to the point that people actually died from it and it was removed from the market. That just goes to show that with signaling of things that your body-- we can eat things, but it says nothing to whether how those cells are going to burn it or not. If they want to, if they have the signaling, which was happening with that drug, for example, or maybe other lifestyle options, I don't know what all leads to that. If they “want to,” they can just burn calories as heat, which I guess is what happens a lot in those overfeeding studies.

Gin Stephens: Yep. I really think that insulin has a lot to do with your setpoint, honestly, I think that people with a high level of circulating insulin are likely to have a high setpoint. As you lower your insulin levels, I think it lowers your setpoint, and do I have like a study, I can pull out that says that? No, but I do think that's instrumental.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, that was one of the things he was saying in the book was that I don't remember exactly. It was something to the effect of people who are thin compared to people who are obese, oftentimes-- well, I guess there is the insulin resistance issue, but as far as their experience of food and the calories they're getting from that, and the energy, it's almost it's like the same, it's just that the body setpoint is different, or the insulin might be playing a factor. What I'm saying is basically, people who are obese might be eating less and doing all the things, but because of their setpoint, or insulin, or whatever it may be, to their body, it won't have the same effect. I'm not saying this very well. It was just a really interesting idea of underweight and overweight people sort of being the same, but the setpoint just being at a different place.

Gin Stephens: There's just so much we still don't know, because the body, it responds to everything. It's not like-- just like you mentioned a little while ago, it's hard to do a study and control the variables with people, because even when you try to control all the variables, your body's got a million other variables back in there. You're like, “I'm going to do this.” But your body's like, “Well, then I'm going to do this.” We don't even know all the things it's doing sometimes. My body might do something different than your body does with the same inputs. It might depend on my insulin levels, or whatever. My gut microbiome, my genetics.

Melanie Avalon: We talked about this before, but you could have a thin person who you would think is more insulin resistant, because they don't gain weight as easily. It can actually be because their fat cells, instead of dividing to form new fat cells to gain weight, they just become inflamed and just get bigger and bigger and bigger and become insulin resistant. But it makes it harder for them to gain weight, compared to people who easily gain weight, but it's because when their fat cells are full, the fat cells divide and form new fat cells, which actually protects them from insulin resistance. It's actually more healthy metabolically, but they're more likely to become overweight, which is really interesting. Basically, with so many things going on behind the scenes-- they think that's one of the things in Asian populations, because Asian populations don't have as much of an obesity problem, but they have a lot of metabolic issues. It's probably a genetic thing where their fat cells don't divide to form new fat cells to protect from an influx of excess calories.

Gin Stephens: That's fascinating.

Melanie Avalon: So many things.

Gin Stephens: Our bodies are great and everything they do are trying to help us.

Melanie Avalon: This is true.

Gin Stephens: That was very interesting. I look forward to talking to you, Melanie, after you talk to him.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, I know. I’ll report back.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. All right. So here we go. The next question is from Samantha, and it is two parts, “Fasting Burps/Supplements in Canada?” She says, “Hello, ladies. You are so great and it's lovely to have your company and great banter to listen to during these interesting times. You often keep me company during home renovations. I've been trying to catch up on the podcast right from the beginning and getting pretty close. Some of the many great tips blur together as I've learned so much, so I was hoping for some advice. I started with 16:8, quickly moved to 19:5, and often stretch as far as 21:3, basically one meal a day. I've thrown a weekly 36-hour fast in a couple of times now just to try it and to rotate my clock if I have brunch plans with family. I feel great and my lifestyle really suits the IF lifestyle. So thank you.

I have had a few typical digestion ups and downs as expected, but tweaking here and there as I go. Right now though, I have odd bloating. There were a few days when I wished I could poke my tummy with a pin to release the pressure. I would give anything for a burp. Some helpful advice from the Facebook groups suggested soda water. I thought it odd to add carbonation to a gassy situation, but it seemed to help a bit. Why? Now for the last few days, I've found myself burping on an empty stomach, no soda. Usually 14 to 20 hours into the fast, I burp repeatedly. I did the baking soda test over a week ago and no burp. Now I burp on an empty stomach. Not enough gas. Too much gas. I'm confused. What's the mechanism problem here?

So far, I've been guilty of making too many changes at once regarding my food choices. It's been hard to track what is good and bad. So, I want to slow the changes down. I've been doing IF for 12 weeks, and I think I'm down about 12 pounds. I'm really happy with the big picture and in it for the long haul. I would love to lose another 10 to 15 pounds, but mostly just want to feel good. So far, I often feel great but sporadically have this bloating and gassy issue. Is there a particular supplement I should try first? Is this an enzyme/probiotic issue or an HCL challenge?

Lastly, I'm Canadian. So, I sure hope all these amazing products and hacks are available up here, too. Otherwise, I may have my research cut out for me. All the best to you both and thanks again for such great podcasting. Thanks, Sam from Canada.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Samantha. Thank you so much for your question. A lot of things going on here. I did research on the drinking carbonated water for stomach issues. The consensus on the internet is that it's really most likely an old wives tale. A lot of the original forms of soda that would have been used were things like ginger soda, so maybe the ginger was having an effect, or something about-- you know how Coca-Cola is made from kola bean? Something about the original form of that with the kola. I'm not sure. The thing that made the most sense to me was that oftentimes GI distress is-- this is something I knew before but I saw it again last night. Gin, did you know that our stomachs don't actually have pain receptors?

Gin Stephens: Well, no, I don't think I did.

Melanie Avalon: Any discomfort we feel is pressure, not pain. A lot of stomach discomfort comes from gas, food, bloating, and the associated pressure from that. Supporting stomach motility can relieve it, and so there's this theory that the carbonation stimulates stomach motility that gets things moving and relieves the stomach. In any case, it seems to mostly be-- I mean, if it works for you, great, but I couldn't really find much science behind it. That said, as far as the cause of the burping, this is actually something-- because I struggled with small intestinal bacterial overgrowth for a long time SIBO. That is an overgrowth of bacteria in your small intestine, so higher up in your GI tract than there should be for that type and amount of bacteria. Something that people experience a lot with SIBO, a lot, is GI distress, burping, gas, especially when they'll go fasting, they will start burping and the consensus in all the people who struggle with it is that it seems to be oftentimes like a die-off effect while fasting of these bacteria releasing gas.

One of the primary bacteria that's associated with GI issues, and especially SIBO and especially IBS with constipation is not actually a bacteria, it's an archaea. It's a methane-producing bacteria called archae bacteria? I'm not really sure. In any case, these little nasties, they release methane gas as a byproduct and they also release it, I don't know when exactly. I feel they're releasing when they're digesting substrates, but then people seem to experience them releasing it while fasting. Like I said, I don't know if that's a die-off effect fact that methane gas and this is getting really granular. That methane gas actually serves as a neurotransmitter in the stomach that further slows motility making things worse.

A lot of people do find that if they can get that under control, though, that it resolves. That's why I love, and so many people in my groups have reported this back, Atrantil. It's a supplement, it's all natural, but it's made with three different compounds. It's some polyphenols and things like peppermint, horse chestnut extract, and one other thing, and they work together to target specifically that type of bacteria. So many people find so much relief. I would definitely 100%, Samantha, consider trying that. You can get it at a lovemytummy.com/ifp, and the coupon code, IFP, will get you 10% off.

As far as the stomach acid, the baking soda. What's going on there is that we should have a certain amount of stomach acid which is really, really important to digest our food. It's really important to keep our stomach free of parasites. It's very antibacterial, anti-parasite, it keeps things clean. A lot of people actually struggle with not enough stomach acid because of the diets that we're eating, our stress levels decrease it. Oftentimes people actually need more stomach acid rather than less. That's why they'll take things like HCL, which is supplemental stomach acid, basically that you can take. I personally use it to support my food. The baking soda test is because baking soda reacts with stomach acid to create, is it carbon dioxide? It releases a gas. [crosstalk] When people do that challenge, it's basically trying to see how much baking soda do you need to create a burp. In theory, if you have adequate stomach acid, when you take the baking soda, you'll burp pretty soon. If you don't ever burp, or if it takes longer than three to five minutes, you might be really low in stomach acid.

What it sounds like to me, Samantha, I would 100% try supporting your digestion. A lot people can try enzymes and/or HCL. Since it seems like you probably have low stomach acid because you never burped with a baking soda. I would start supplementing HCL with your food to help try to make things break down and support motility and I would also try that Atrantil. Yeah, the way they say to take it on the bottle is to take it with meals or before meals, I think. I actually take it in the morning because I do one meal a day and then I take it in the morning fasted and that works really well for me. But I think people also will take it the way the bottle prescribes. I think those two things, and she also wanted to know about Canadian supplements. I don't know if Atrantil ships to Canada. I hope they do. I feel like they might, let us know. HCL, you can definitely get in Canada. Gin, do you have thoughts on all of that? That was a lot.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] I knew you were going to talk about SIBO. I just had a feeling that sounded like SIBO to me. I'm glad that my hunch was right.

Melanie Avalon: Because I've seen that historically in the SIBO communities, they'll experience exactly what Samantha's experiencing. When they do fasting, which tends to really help with SIBO, but they often will get burping while fasting, if they do have those methane-producing organisms.

Gin Stephens: It makes total sense because the gas is coming from somewhere, and it's coming up, so it's coming up through that mechanism from the small intestine. So, that makes total sense.

Melanie Avalon: Something else you could try, Samantha, dietary wise, is a lot of people benefit from a low FODMAP approach. That's basically-- research I've seen, you can get all of your nutrition from it. It's basically just the types of carbs that are less likely to support fermentation from gut bacteria from the gut microbiome. So, that might be a dietary approach to try as well, and your one meal a day. You can get my app, it's called Food Sense Guide, it's at melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide, and it actually has over 300 foods and it shows their FODMAPs. If they're high, low, medium in FODMAPs. Not just FODMAPs, there's 11 other compounds. So, you can see everything else like histamine and oxalates and gluten and lectins. But the FODMAPs might be something to try, a low FODMAP diet. Again, that was a lot.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but I think that's good advice. I think you covered it well.

Melanie Avalon: Do you see that in your groups, Gin, people burping during the fast?

Gin Stephens: No. [laughs] Not really, not a lot. I mean, it doesn't come up much.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's so interesting. I thought that maybe it would have come up a lot. But, yeah, it comes up all the time in the SIBO groups.

Gin Stephens: Well, that makes sense. They've got that in common.

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Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Jennifer and the subject is “Question.” Jennifer says, “Hello ladies. I'm new to intermittent fasting but all of my life I have not really enjoyed breakfast, but did it anyway because I was worried that my metabolism would slow down. After listening to you, I have been able to fast guilt-free, so thank you for that freedom. Before intermittent fasting, I had been on a keto diet for about two years. As such, I think that my body fat adapted pretty quickly. I was easily able to immediately go down to just one meal a day and I open my window between 6 and 6:30 PM with a non-alcoholic beverage most days and a glass of wine two days a week. I also have a light snack, such as raw veggies and dip. We usually sit down to dinner between 7 and 7:30. My husband rolls his eyes at my new fasting lifestyle, and did the same with my keto diet. He is happy to eat simple carbs, does not seem to care much about what he eats and loves to feed himself and my two boys, ages 12 and 9, processed foods.

My question to you pertains to when I sit down to eat with my family, I'm usually the one who is making and eating something different than the rest of my family. I'm more flexible on the weekends and usually will join in with what the family is eating as long as I get to pick. This is fine with me and we have adapted to this lifestyle. However, during the week, since my children and husband are eating processed, partially digested foods, they're done with dinner very quickly. It doesn't take long to wolf down a cheeseburger. For me, this is my one and only meal of the day. I like to savor my food and eat slowly. Also, I'm eating whole foods such as a very large salad and raw vegetables which take a lot longer to eat than processed foods. I find myself rushing through dinner, just so I am not the last one eating with everyone staring at me, like I am the glutton who is still eating when everyone else has pushed their chairs back from the table. Also, I am usually the one driving the dinner conversation which makes it even more difficult to eat quickly.

How do I still enjoy my dinner, eat slowly, enjoy conversation with my family without feeling like a glutton because everyone else is done and I'm still eating? I find myself stealing a few bites of my dinner while doing the dishes, just so I don't have to make everyone wait for me. Do you have any suggestions on how to deal with this? Thanks so much. I love your show. It provides me not only with motivation, but validation for what I am doing despite the naysayers I live with.” She also says, “I've been catching up on all of your episodes, I'm worried that I might miss your answer. Do you also email a response in case I don't find it for quite some time if you read my question on the air.” For that last question, because we do get that occasionally. In case listeners are wondering, we don't email when the question comes on air, so you have to keep listening if you want to know of your question. I wish we could. There's just so--

Gin Stephens: So many things to keep up with.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's the answer to that. Jennifer, we are answering your question, so hopefully you're listening. I thought this was a really great question because recently we've been getting this question a lot about, oftentimes mom's not wanting to eat dinner and having an earlier window and struggling with that aspect, but this was the first time getting a question where she does do the one meal day dinner, but there's this timing issue. I just thought this was a great question. So Gin, do you have advice?

Gin Stephens: I think you have two options. One of them is, and this might be a wacky one, but this really might be your answer. You like to open your window between 6 and 6:30. Maybe have your separate meal then, eat the food you want to eat that's going to take you a while to eat, and you're not going to feel like someone's watching you or you're rushing or whatever. And then, when your family eats between 7 and 7:30, you've already eaten, you sit with them, you keep the conversation rolling, you keep them company, you have your family time, and you don't feel you're stressed out with having to shove your food in or finish it later secretly, to say, “I'm going to eat earlier, and then I'm going to sit with you.” Maybe have your raw veggies and dip when they're having their dinner, just flip it. Flip your snack. Have your meal, then have a little something else. That's one suggestion.

The other is, tell your family how you feel. You can say, “I understand that y'all are done first, it would make me so happy if you would sit with me. And then let me eat slowly and we can just use this visiting time.” The part about where you are feeling like you're a glutton, that's something you're putting on yourself. I guarantee your husband and kids haven't said you're a glutton, stop eating, they're not saying that. You've got to get rid of that thought. Stop putting that thought on yourself because you're eating high-quality whole foods, it takes longer to eat those foods. It's 100% you're not being a glutton and I do not think that they think that. They might be irritated because they want to go do something else instead of sit with you. They might be thinking that, because I know families, but they're not thinking that you're a glutton. My mother was always a really slow eater, and I can remember being a kid and sitting there and like, “Come on, hurry up,” especially if we were at a restaurant. She was taking forever and just really, really slow, but it wasn't that I felt like she was a glutton, it was that I was ready to move on and do something different.

So, think about either eating beforehand, or having a conversation with them and saying how you feel. Just say, “I feel I'm having to rush. I feel I'm having to eat really fast. It would make me so happy if you could just sit with me while I finish.” Either one of those would be a solution. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I love that so much. So speaking to both, so the first option that you gave about eating before and then finishing with the family, I guess if she did have a conversation about the glutton and didn't feel like a glutton, because that might solve it, because if she has conversation and realizes that's not perceived that way, the alternative to eating more before and finishing with them would be eating with them, and then finishing after, which is sort of like--

Gin Stephens: What she's doing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Maybe you feel you don't have to make everyone wait for you. We're great at not wanting to put anyone else out, but you know what? Maybe they need to be put out and sit there and be with you as a family. Just say, “We're going to sit here as a family and spend some family time.” So it's not just about eat the food, go.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. At restaurants, I'm always this way. I'm always eating right until the very, very end, eating slowly. And then usually, everybody wants dessert, and I just want like another steak. That's when I eat everybody else's leftover meat, as well. I feel like I did probably used to feel like a glutton with that, because I literally will eat other people's leftovers. But I know I'm not, and I know what's going on. So, I don't really care.

Gin Stephens: I don't take on other people's feelings about how I'm eating at this point. Now, when I weighed 210 pounds, I think I felt more judged. If someone was like, “No wonder you weigh 210 pounds, look at how you eat.” I think I was very sensitive at that time. But now, I'm fortunate, obviously, I'm not overweight, I'm able to disconnect from that, and I don't feel food judgments from people. I don't accept it, no matter what I'm eating. Even if I'm choosing to eat something that's different for me, however much of it I eat is my own business at this point. You know what I mean? I do have a lot of sympathy and empathy for people who are still overweight and feel that judgment because I remember feeling it then I did feel it. And so, I don't have words of wisdom other than it's normal to want to eat a big meal that we were-- what's that Robb Wolf book, Wired to Eat? We are wired to enjoy eating a substantial meal. When I was overweight, I felt guilty about it, but now, I realize that's how our bodies feel great, not overeating, but eating a substantial meal feels good, and we shouldn't feel guilty about it.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. All right. Jennifer, definitely write back and let us know if you implement any of these and how it goes. It reminds me of we got that feedback last week.

Gin Stephens: From Bronwyn?

Melanie Avalon: She had a suggestion for a listener who was struggling with what I said at the beginning of this question. Having an earlier eating window and not wanting to eat with the family. She was saying that once she told her family the situation, it was actually completely fine. So, you might be surprised just talking about it like Gin suggested.

Gin Stephens: If you're eating something different, anyway, I think that makes it easier to just eat at a different time because really the family time being around the table is the being together. That's what it's about. It's about being together.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: Good times. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can find all of the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode197. You can follow us on Instagram, my favorite. I am @MelanieAvalon, Gin is @GinStephens. I think that is everything. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week. I guess next time I talk to you might be depending on when we schedule, it might be 2021.

Gin Stephens: I think it will be. Yeah, even if people are listening to this one in 2021, we're still in the past. We haven't time-traveled to the future yet. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: So, I'll see you next year.

Gin Stephens: All right, next year. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on this show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jan 17

Episode 196: Christmas Episode, Low Energy, Brain Fog, HCLF, Fruit, Complex Carbs, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 196 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To ButcherBox.Com/IFPODCAST And Get The Ultimate Keto Bundle! That’s 10 lbs of meat: one pork butt, 2 lbs of ground beef and 3 lbs of bone-in chicken thighs for free in your first box!

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At Melanieavalon.Com/Insidetracker! Go To MelanieAvalon.Com/GetInsideTracker And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To ButcherBox.com/IFPODCAST And Get The Ultimate Keto Bundle!

3:05 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

Lifespan: Why We Age - and Why We Don't Have To (David A. Sinclair PhD)

BLUBLOX: Go To BLUblox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

Chilipad: Go To melanieavalon.com/getchilipad and use coupon code MA25 for 25% off the original chilipad or mA15 15% off the ooler

APOLLO NEURO: Get 15% Off Apollo Neuro At Apolloneuro.Com/Melanieavalon

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To DryFarmWines.com/IFPodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

30:50 - INSIDETRACKER: Go To MelanieAvalon.Com/GetInsideTracker And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

25:35 - Listener Feedback: Bronwyn - Becky episode 192

27:00 - Listener Q&A: Rachanna - Energy during Fasting window

27:40 - Listener Q&A: Robin - Lack of energy while fasting

The Wahls Protocol: A Radical New Way to Treat All Chronic Autoimmune Conditions Using Paleo Principles (Terry Wahls M.D.)

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #70 - Kara Collier (Nutrisense)

NUTRISENSE: Go To Melanieavalon.com/nutrisenseCGM And Use Coupon Code MelanieAvalon For 15% Off Select Packages

42:15 - BLUBLOX: Go To BLUblox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

44:50 - Listener Q&A: Grace - Fruit and Hunger, High Carb Definition

IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + LifeJoin Melanie's Facebook Group For A Weekly Episode GIVEAWAY, And To Discuss And Learn About All Things Biohacking! All Conversations Welcome!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #44- Cyrus Khambatta, PHD and Robby Barbaro, MPH

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #71 - Dr. Douglas Graham

IN DEFENSE OF LOW FAT: A CALL FOR SOME EVOLUTION OF THOUGHT (PART 1)

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #74 - Benjamin Bikman, Ph.D.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 196 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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One more thing before you jump in. Are you concerned about aging? Well thankfully, fasting is super incredible for its anti-aging benefits. It activates genes in your body called sirtuins, which repair your body and help extend lifespan. Also during the fast, your body can clean up a lot of harmful chemicals which may be taxing your detoxification systems. In fact the reason people go gray is because their detox systems start producing a lot of hydrogen peroxide when dealing with toxins. Do you know where a lot of those chemicals come from? Your skincare and makeup.

As it turns out, there are thousands of compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup that Europe has banned due to their toxic nature and the US has banned less than 10. When you put these on your skin every single day through your skincare makeup, you're adding to your body's burden and likely aging your skin faster. Thankfully, you can easily clean up your skincare with a company called Beautycounter. They make incredible products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about every single ingredient that you put on. They also have an amazing antiaging line called Countertime. Friends, this is a game-changer.

It's full of active ingredients, which nourish and support your skin, reduce fine lines and wrinkles and support a beautiful glow. It also has a safe alternative to retinol. So you can get all of the anti-aging benefits of retinol without any of the toxic effects of retinol because, yes, that stuff is toxic. Guys, put it away now. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. Also, definitely get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I giveaway so many free things on that list. So definitely check it out.

Lastly, if you anticipate making safe skincare a part of your future, just like Gin and I do, definitely become a band of beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for safe skincare. You get 10% back on all of your purchases, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that costs way more than the price of the membership. It's completely worth it. Friends, are you fasting clean inside and out? You can with Beautycounter. Again, that link is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. We'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 196 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, I just forgot the intro for the first time in 196 episodes. It's like when you have a habit of something that is so habitual but then if you actually try to think about it, it's like you overanalyze.

Gin Stephens: Oh, 100%. Somebody in my family got a new iPhone for Christmas. They were upgrading from the kind that had the finger that you had to click on, and so now you don't do that anymore. You just slide up instead of clicking on the little home button. I was trying to show them how to do it, and I'm like, “I can't remember how to do it. I don't know.” They're like, “How do you do this?” I'm like, “I have no idea. I just do it.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, when you actually think about it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Like, “Can you tell me?” I'm like, “No, I can't tell you. I just have to do it.”

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if it's because it's not in your conscious working memory?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, it's like driving a car. You don't even think about all the things you're doing. You just do it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Like, I wonder if literally, if you consciously try to think about it, like, if you're looking for the information in the wrong part of your brain. It might be in a different part of your brain where it's subconscious. So, trying to actually think about it, maybe the knowledge is literally not there.

Gin Stephens: Everything is hard, that's automatic when you try to think about it. If you had to stand up out of your chair, you're like, “Alright, how do I stand up out of my chair?” But you don't think about it, you just do it. Like walking, you don't know how to walk, you just walk. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny, our podcast episode-- [crosstalk]

Gin Stephens: There you go. We're recording this on the day after Christmas. How was your Christmas?

Melanie Avalon: It was wonderful. We opened all of our presents. We did the immediate family gathering on Christmas Eve. Then on Christmas Day, we did a responsible socially distance gathering with extended family.

Gin Stephens: Very nice.

Melanie Avalon: How about you?

Gin Stephens: Well, I got to see Cal and Kate for the first time in over a year, which is crazy to say. I hadn't seen them since they got married.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. That's exciting.

Gin Stephens: It was so exciting. They didn't think they were going to be able to come home for a brief minute. And then they were like, “We're doing it. We're coming home.” They safely flew Delta with the seat in the middle and they wore their masks. While they were here, they didn't see people. Cal hadn't seen his friends. He's like, “Nope, can't see them.” We didn't go see the whole family, but they just stayed here with us. So, it was just the people I gave birth to and my spouse, and my daughter in law. So that was it.

Melanie Avalon: That’s so exciting.

Gin Stephens: It was exciting. It was very nice to see them. They were here for four nights, it flew by.

Melanie Avalon: Oh yeah, I bet.

Gin Stephens: It really did. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Can I tell you the gifts that I gave to family members?

Gin Stephens: Real quick, I have to tell you something funny. I can no longer say that both of my sons do intermittent fasting because Cal has stopped doing intermittent fasting. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?

Gin Stephens: Yes. He eats all the time, and it was hilarious. They get up in the morning, they're eating, I'm like, “What?”

Melanie Avalon: “What are you doing?” [laughs]

Gin Stephens: He's making egg and she's a vegetarian. He's probably 90 something percent vegetarian now because that's just how they eat around their apartment. We had to go to the store and get all these vegetarian things. And they just ate all the time, all those small meals. We went to a national park that's in South Carolina that I'd never even heard of or been to. It only became a national park in 2005, which explains a lot, but it's Congaree National Park. It's like a swamp, has a boardwalk. We walked all through the swamp. It was beautiful. They're like, “We have to think about what we're going to eat.” I'm like, “Oh my Lord.” We had to pack food and take food and eat the food as soon as we got there. I mean, I didn't. I was in the fasted state. I hiked four miles in the fasted state. They ate before we left, they ate in the middle of a hike, it was really funny. I didn't eat till we got home. That was like 5 PM. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Did it come out of a need for him, because he was doing more vegetarian, like not getting enough food?

Gin Stephens: I don't think so. I don't really know. He was just doing the intermittent fasting loosely and not eating till lunchtime when he was in college. Even I think when he first started working for Airbnb, he would go into the office, but now he's working from home. I think he just got into the habit of starting to have breakfast again, and anyway. They're both really lean and healthy and they get a lot of exercise. Intermittent fasting is a tool that they have if they ever need it, but it was just so funny how frequently they ate.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really happy, I realized now my family finally is just-- they completely accepted all of my strange habits because I didn't really eat at the times that they were eating for different festivity gatherings.

Gin Stephens: While on Christmas Day, we went safely over to my dad and stepmothers, and I ate brunch, I ate all day long. But today, the day after, I'm so happy to not be eating. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's the thing about it. I feel it's the one dietary protocol, or I don’t want to make an exclusive statement like that. One of the benefits about intermittent fasting is, if you do stop it for the holidays, I feel so many people are so excited to go back to it, compared to dreading it.

Gin Stephens: Even technically, I say that I didn't. I did fast. I fasted overnight, so I probably on Christmas Day had a-- Well, let me think, let me do some math. I had probably a 13-hour fast, 14-hour fast before I open my window on Christmas. I mean, it wasn't really a window. I guess it technically is always a window, but I still had a 13 or 14 hour fast then I ate. I ate more than I needed to, foods I don't normally eat. Today, though, it feels great to fast longer. Feels great too fast longer, let me clarify. What were you going to say and then I interrupted you with my story?

Melanie Avalon: The gifts related to things we've talked about on the show that I gave to people. I gave Beautycounter to everybody. My sister, my brother, he was so excited, which made me really excited. My mom, my brother's girlfriend, and my uncle, who also was really excited. They have a men's line. That was fun. I'll give links for all these different things I talk about. For that, melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. Then I got, okay, the thing I was most excited about which I think I might have sent you a picture of this when I got it because I got it months ago, but I got my dad, it was my favorite book out of all the health biohacking books is David Sinclair's Lifespan and I got him to sign it to my dad. Did I show you a picture of that when he did that?

Gin Stephens: I don't think so. No, but that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon: I got it way back in the spring. So that made me really happy. I asked him just to sign it to Steve, my dad, but he wrote a whole message and wrote like, “Your daughter is awesome.” I was like, “Oh my goodness.”

Gin Stephens: That's fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: I got that from my dad, and then I also got my dad a pair of BLUblox, blue light blocking glasses.

Gin Stephens: It was a biohacking Christmas.

Melanie Avalon: It really was. Then I got my mom, a chiliPAD OOLER, the mattress that cools down while you sleep. I'm so excited for her to try it because she's been complaining about sleeping really hot at night and not being able to sleep. She said she was going to add it into her budget and buy it later, so I was like, “I'll just get it for her”. I got her an Apollo Neuro, the stress-relieving device, which was really funny because a few days before Christmas, she texted me because she had seen one of my Instagram stories or Facebook or something about Apollo Neuro. She was like, “Does this really work?” I was like, “Yes.” She was like, “I think I want to get one.” I was like, “Oh, wait.” I'd already got it for her.

Gin Stephens: “Do not get one, mom.”

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “I think they're coming out with an update, so you might want to wait.” She was really excited about that. That might have been all of the “biohacking” related gifts. If listeners are curious, it’s not like I got any of this for free, I bought all of this just to show how obsessed I am with all these products.

Gin Stephens: True. I bought Chad Dry Farm Wines, a box of the reds, and I paid for it. I bought it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh yeah, I got my dad that, too. I got my dad and mom that.

Gin Stephens: Oh, and I had some wine last night, but it was like the tiny-- I felt like Melanie Avalon. You know how you had teaspoon or something? Chad opened his one of his bottles of the red. It was a French red. And I'm like, “Pour me.” I mean, it was like half a centimeter of wine of the glass that I just slipped. It was tiny. But it wasn't enough to even have any buzz or impact. It was just a tiny little taste. So, I tasted it.

Melanie Avalon: That's technically probably micro-dosing alcohol. I think that has a really beneficial hormetic effect.

Gin Stephens: Maybe. Well, I micro-dosed it and it was delicious.

Melanie Avalon: I didn't stop my intermittent fasting window or anything. I didn't change my food choices, but what I did go off plan was they were all organic wines. I have all of these really nice expensive organic bottles of wine that I've had for a while but they're not Dry Farm Wines. A lot of them are California and they're a lot higher alcohol and they're not-- I just like to drink Dry Farm Wines. For the holidays though, I brought those bottles over any opportunity I had. So, I'm excited to go back to Dry Farm Wines now.

Gin Stephens: Oh yeah. I can never do anything else. I mean, I'm not ever going to drink like huge amounts of anything ever again, I'm pretty sure, but the Dry Farm Wines is really just so different.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really proud of myself, like at all the gatherings I really stuck to. I brought the really nice bottles, like I said, that are organic, but there's just something different about Dry Farm Wines, but I stuck to them and then I didn't try any of the other wines even though I really wanted to. But, yeah, so for listeners, I'll put links in the show notes. You can get a bottle for a penny, Dry Farm Wines. So, that's dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast. You can get 15% off of BLUblox, the blue light blocking glasses at blublox.com with the coupon code IFPODCAST. You can get 15% off Apollo Neuro, that's the soundwave therapy device, at melanieavalon.com/apolloneuro with the coupon code MELANIEAVALON. For chiliPAD, it's melanieavalon.com/getchilipad, that's C-H-I-L-I-P-A-D. The code MA25, gets you 25% off the chiliPAD, that's the original one. And then, the code MA15 gives you 15% off the OOLER. I actually just got the OOLER for myself as well. I think I talked about that because I bought them on Black Friday when they were having a pretty good sale. And, oh my goodness, I love it. I definitely recommend it over the chiliPAD because the updates that it has, is it has like a UV light to sanitize the water because there is the concern about mold growing. Then, it syncs to your phone, so you can time it. Mine automatically turns on at a certain time every night and then turns off in the morning and it's just a game-changer for my sleep. It was a biohacking Christmas.

Gin Stephens: That's fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, very last thing. So sorry. The present that I received that I got most excited about. My mom got me the Rolling Stones December 2020 edition was Taylor Swift on the cover with, I think, Paul McCartney. Apparently, it's sold out. Is Rolling Stone subscription only? My mom and I were debating about that. Do you know?

Gin Stephens: The magazine?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Can you buy it on the newsstands?

Gin Stephens: I mean, [unintelligible [00:17:09]. Can you now? I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I'm not sure. Well, she swears.

Gin Stephens: I don’t buy anything on the newsstand now. I can't think of the last time I've gone and bought a magazine.

Melanie Avalon: Probably years when you were on the cover. Did you buy that one?

Gin Stephens: Oh, well. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that. [laughs] Okay, yeah. I bought that at the grocery store though.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, like newsstands?

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean, when I'm thinking about-- I was picturing when you go to the whole display of all the magazines and it's just the one that Fast. Feast. Repeat. was featured in was at the checkout stand.

Melanie Avalon: Then the one that we were in-- or you were in. It was a profile on you, but then it mentioned this show, remember?

Gin Stephens: Was it the intermittent fasting special? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Good times. My mom, she got me-- Apparently, it's sold out the first edition. So, it's still in the packaging of the Rolling Stones 2020 December, Taylor Swift cover. It made me so happy. And then she got me organic, gluten-free vodka from Hawaii made from sugarcane. The water is Hawaii mineral water. I was like, “Thank you, mom. Vodka and Taylor Swift. You know me.” [laughs] I actually haven't had vodka in, I don’t know, a decade.

Gin Stephens: My very favorite gift was, my son, Will, painted pictures for Chad and for me.

Melanie Avalon: Aww.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. He is my artsy boy, the one that is in a band. His band is called Wing It. If you go to Apple Music, you can listen to their song wishing by Wing It on Apple Music. I think it's everywhere that you can do all that.

Melanie Avalon: Is it on Spotify now?

Gin Stephens: I think it might be. I don't know if it's . It's just like with self-publishing books. Once you upload it to one place, and it goes to all the places or podcasts. Once you upload a podcast, it goes to all the podcast apps, same thing with the music scene. It should be really everywhere that you stream music. Wishing by Wing it. Anyway, I'm just so proud of him. He's doing artsy things. And now he's like, “I'm going to paint.” He's painting and it's fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? What did he paint?

Gin Stephens: It's an impressionistic looking thing. He painted the scene of his where he lives right now. He painted a daytime version and then a nighttime version, and they're just beautiful. All of his Christmas money, he's like, “I'm going to go buy canvases.” I'm not even kidding, that's what he's-- he's going to go buy canvases and he's such a creative boy.

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that was my very favorite present.

Melanie Avalon: Aww, I love it. Yep. Listeners, Gin sent me a miniature Christmas tree, and it made me so happy.

Gin Stephens: I'm so glad.

Melanie Avalon: I decorated it.

Gin Stephens: Yay.

Melanie Avalon: Staring at me.

Gin Stephens: And that was your only Christmas tree, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because I posted a picture on Instagram. I received a lot of plants this year.

Gin Stephens: But I mean, you didn't put up a Christmas tree?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. It was my only Christmas tree, that made me really happy because I was debating about getting a Christmas tree in my apartment. But I was like, “I don't want to deal--" Mostly I don't want to deal with storing it. If it was artificial, storing it somewhere or--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that is not easy.

Melanie Avalon: And if it's real, getting rid of it.

Gin Stephens: I am so happy in my house because we have five attics. It's a crazy house. It's got a lot of weird eaves, and in all the little weird eaves area upstairs, there's a little attic crammed in there.

Melanie Avalon: There's always these words that you teach me about houses that I have never heard of in my life. Okay, an eave?

Gin Stephens: Well, think about a roof that's the triangle of the roof. Now imagine a room that's next to where a slanted ceiling comes down. A lot of the rooms in my house have slanted ceilings. Okay, so imagine as the slant comes down, there's all that space that you can't have really in the room. There's doorways that go under the eaves, and that's like storage.

Melanie Avalon: So, it's like a triangle room?

Gin Stephens: It's just that little space. I don’t know, it's hard to explain, but I have an entire Christmas attic.

Melanie Avalon: Nice.

Gin Stephens: I mean, it's fantastic. That's why I have two full-sized Christmas trees that I keep in there. I mean, I have to take them down, but all my Christmas stuffs in that one attic, and it's phenomenal because we didn't have that kind of storage in my other house.

Melanie Avalon: Storage is everything.

Gin Stephens: In fact, when we bought this house, the old owner said beware of the attics.

Melanie Avalon: What do you mean?

Gin Stephens: Because you can put so much stuff in there. They had been in this house since ‘84, and so apparently their attics were packed.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: That's crazy.

Gin Stephens: We're going to try not to fall in the trap. Anyway, you're right, storing your Christmas tree is hard.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Shall we get started?

Melanie Avalon: I think so. I knew we were going to have a lot to catch up on.

Gin Stephens: We did, well, because Christmas.

Melanie Avalon: This will come out into January, but happy late Christmas to everybody. Hopefully 2021 is looking bright.

Gin Stephens: I think it's going to be a great year.

Melanie Avalon: I think so, too.

Gin Stephens: Some great things happened in 2020 though. I know friends who had babies or their first grandchildren or their New York Times bestselling book or other things. We had some good things in 2020. It also taught us a lot about what to value and what's important.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's what I keep thinking. I think it's been like--

Gin Stephens: We [unintelligible [00:22:32] down.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and amazing, like, a forced mindfulness in a way to reevaluate what's important.

Gin Stephens: Bad things happen in every single year. But I don't think we should think of 2020 is only bad, because it also had some amazing things in it.

Melanie Avalon: I agree.

Gin Stephens: And then you feel guilty. You're like, “Well, I had some good things in 2020.” I'm sorry, I had a good thing.

Melanie Avalon: That is a response that I even have that I shouldn't feel good about things that happened. So, I think a reframe.

Gin Stephens: It's like I'm sorry, you only complain. No, we need to celebrate the good things, too.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it doesn't diminish the other things.

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. I wanted to tell you about one of the most incredible resources for taking charge of your blood tests and lab work, ever. I am a huge fan of a company called InsideTracker. They are actually a David Sinclair partnered company. What they do is they provide access to the blood tests that you need to be testing, as well as interpretations, so that you can figure out what that all means.

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All right, so we have some feedback from Bronwyn. It is about Becky from Episode 192. She said, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, I'm listening to Episode 192, and wondered if you could tell Becky my experience. I, like her, can't get past about 1:00 PM without needing to eat, but I can easily drop dinner. When I finally decided that I didn't “have to” eat dinner with my family and just sat with them and drank water. Not one of them noticed that I wasn't eating until the fourth night. They are not upset about it. They don't mind at all. Bronwyn.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so that was some good feedback. I'm pretty sure the initial question from Becky, which was a question that we get from a lot of people is, families, is often usually moms who have kids and families and they do better with an earlier eating window. So, they don't want to eat dinner with a family, and there's this whole puzzle to figure out about what is best. I'm trying to remember what we recommended. I think we recommended a lot of different potential options, but it's nice to hear that for some people, like Bronwyn, that just taking the approach that she took can work for some people.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's true. Yep. I think you nailed it.

Melanie Avalon: Now, we have two questions, and they are talking about a similar topic, so we thought we would include both. The first one is from Roshanna, and the subject is “Energy During Fasting Window.” Roshanna says, “So, I hear about this increased mental energy with IF. I had been doing IF now for a few months and have reached my target weight. However, I have a fogged brain through the fasting period. After my eating window opens, and I eat lunch around 12 to 1. I experienced a sudden and sharp dip of energy, which stays through till my dinner time, which is at 7:00, no amount of tea or coffee helps.” Then, we have a question from Robin, the subject is “Lack of Energy While Fasting.” She says, “Hi, I've been fasting now for about three years, started 12:12 and worked up to 24. I do 24 to keep my weight down, especially now since COVID, and not working out at the level I was before COVID. I'm currently working at home and I'm not going to gym for spin class to get my cardio in, to keep my A1C in check. My issue is I never feel energized and focused. It's just the opposite, tired and brain fog. Any suggestions?” All right. Two great question. Great questions from two Rs, Roshanna and Robin. Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm going to be really brief. Most of us have increased mental clarity and energy while fasting clean during the fast. For example, today, it's the day after Christmas, I actually was a little draggy this morning, because I had a long window yesterday. I ate more sweets and things I don't normally eat and so I was feeling a little draggy. But then I just pushed through that and then, boom, on the other side, mental clarity, increased energy, no more brain fog. That is what you want to ideally feel. If you're not feeling that ever, and you know you're fasting clean, and you know you're fasting long enough that you should be getting into ketosis like 16, 18, 20 hours, you never feel it. If you're only fasting 16 hours and you never feel it, you might not be fasting long enough. If you're fasting 20 hours or beyond and you never get out of the brain fog, either you're not getting into ketosis, which is possible or there's something else causing the brain fog. People have brain fog, for all sorts of reasons.

It could be related to something going on in your gut, it could be an allergy. I mean, it could be all sorts of reasons that you have brain fog. If you know you're fasting long enough, you know that you “should be” getting into ketosis and having that increased mental clarity that would come with that and you never, never, never are, then it's time to look beyond what else is going on. Back to what Roshanna said about after she eats, she has a dip of energy. Well, that's normal, because digestion takes a lot of energy. And we tend to have our blood glucose might drop after we eat, depending on what you eat, you feel tired, your body's digesting all that. So, that's normal. In the fast, if you continue to feel lethargic and have brain fog, and you're fasting for years and years, you know that you're having a long enough fast, I would dig deeper. So I know, Melanie, you have a ton to say about that.

Melanie Avalon: What I noticed for both of them, and Gin can probably predict that I would say this, but neither of them said what they are eating. Gin really nailed it in the fact that there are so many potential things that can be going on that, so many things. Even fasting itself, for some people can have a really intense detox effect, and can create fatigue, just from the fasting, for example. This isn't speaking to energy specifically, but right now I am reading The Wahls Protocol by Terry Wahls. I'm so excited because I'm going to be interviewing her and she's really a huge figure in the holistic health world. She's the one that had multiple sclerosis. She was wheelchair bound, like couldn't even walk, and she completely reversed all of it through diet and lifestyle. Originally, she's a doctor, so she has a really nuanced and informed perspective from both conventional and holistic medicine. In any case, something that really stuck out with me was, I was reading her book and is not speaking to energy specifically, but she said that there are basically four things related to chronic disease. Four factors in your body.

Energy issues often overlap with factors in our body that can be trending towards disease. She says that those are one mitochondrial dysfunction. Basically, how your cells are generating energy. Gin spoke to that with the fasting. For a lot of people, if you are fasting, and you are fat-adapted, and you're in the ketogenic state, then your mitochondria are most likely generating ketones adequately, so that may or may not be the problem. If you're not getting the energy from the fast, Gin, just talks about this, it might be that you're never quite getting into that, that ketogenic state that you need to be in, to experience the benefits.

The other thing she says number two is excessive and inappropriate inflammation. I think that's a lot where the food choices come in. You might be fasting and doing all the fasting. Even though you can get the benefits of fasting coupled with a diet that is not health-promoting or not working for you, it's still quite possible to be putting in foods in your body in the eating window that are short-circuiting everything. And so, then when you're actually fasting, it’s mitigating the damage, but you're never able to really reach that state of vitality or energy because you're always doing cleanup every day. It would be like, if you had a house party every night, like a college party in your apartment, and then you came and did a deep clean every day, like a fasting period. If you're always recovering from what you're eating, that can be an issue. Sometimes you might not even realize that it's causing a problem. It can be hard to know, sometimes unless you actually take out the foods that are bothering you. And I'm not trying to moralize food or say that anybody is doing a “bad diet,” but it is possible that the foods are not suiting your body. So, I always recommend if you haven't tried like a Whole Foods type approach diet, where you're eliminating potentially inflammatory foods. I obviously really love the “paleo approach,” which is in my book, What When Wine, but just looking at your dietary choices can be really important.

Then the other two things she says, number three is high cortisol levels. I think that speaks to so hormones. Hormones can be huge. So, you can be doing the fasting and eating the right food. But if your hormones are off for whatever reason, there can still be problems with energy, because hormones are huge. And then the fourth thing she says is absence of or insufficient health-promoting microbes living in and on us, so our microbiomes. I do think our gut health and our microbiome health is, like, huge. If your gut is full of microbes that are not symbiotically supporting you, it can definitely, definitely lead to energy issues, weight gain, things just not quite working. Again, that is something where I think addressing foods can be a huge factor in that, but that was a long answer, just like Gin predicted.

Gin Stephens: I knew you have a lot to say.

Melanie Avalon: I just thought was perfect, because I read that last night, and I was like, that's really four really great things to focus on. Basically, long story short, it might not be the fasting. It could be a lot of things.

Gin Stephens: Just to piggyback when you were talking about things that were inflammatory for your body, it's not the same for everybody. Something that works really well for me, might be inflammatory for somebody else, and vice versa. I'm getting ready to eat according to the recommendations of the PREDICT 3 study just to see how I feel. After doing that study, I found that, to no surprise, to me, a lot of fat is inflammatory to me, because my body doesn't clear fat. If I were just following someone else's protocol of eating a high fat, keto diet, for example, that worked great and lowered inflammation for somebody else, that's inflammatory for me, because of the way my body clears fat based on the results of my blood test. You just really have to figure out what works for your body. The good news is, we're getting more and more tools to do that. Companies that can analyze things for you and say, “Guess what? That's not good for your body.”

Melanie Avalon: The two things now that I always have on, I'm learning so much from my continuous glucose monitor, which I have one on still right now. Gin, are you going to wear another one at all, do you think?

Gin Stephens: Maybe, which one are you using?

Melanie Avalon: It's Nutrisense.

Gin Stephens: Is that the one you like most?

Melanie Avalon: I did interviews with Nutrisense and Levels, I like both. They both use the FreeStyle Libre. Oh, and for listeners who are not familiar, I know Gin and I've been talking about this a lot. But the continuous glucose monitor is a sensor that you put onto your arm, and it measures your glucose, your blood glucose constantly 24/7, so you can see how you react to foods and you can see what's happening when you're fasting, when you eat, when you exercise, like how is that changing your blood sugar, and it's revolutionary.

Gin Stephens: Just to clarify, that's not what told me that fats are inflammatory for me, that was the different part of the PREDICT 3 study. The CGM was part of it, but they also fed me challenge meals and then tested my blood at periods throughout after the challenge meal to see how my body cleared the fat. Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that.

Melanie Avalon: So, they were testing the fatty acids in your blood?

Gin Stephens: Yes, how my body cleared the fat after the challenge meal, that they have the data on how you should clear the fat versus how I did clear the fat. Anyway, the reason I asked about Nutrisense being the one you prefer is because they reached out to the company that does my podcast ads. They're interested in sponsoring Intermittent Fasting Stories.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, doing sponsorships.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Anyway, I wanted to check and see if that's the one because I was like, “I think so, but I'd like to try it.” I'm going to get to try it.

Melanie Avalon: Are they sending you one?

Gin Stephens: Well, I think so.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they're great. For listeners, I'll put a link in the show notes-- Oh, the show notes, by the way, will be at ifpodcast.com/episode196.

Gin Stephens: But just to say, we don't promote things until we try them. So that's why I asked, because I was like, I'm not going to say yes to any company until I can try it for myself. I say no to all sorts of companies, as does Melanie, as do we.

Melanie Avalon: All the time.

Gin Stephens: All the time.

Melanie Avalon: Definitely every week, and sometimes multiple times a week.

Gin Stephens: I also say no to people who want to come on Intermittent Fasting Stories, and I have turned down to three New York Times bestselling writers who wanted to be on Intermittent Fasting Stories, because-- anyway, I don't get into all the reasons, but if their protocol is not in line with the clean fast, or if they're just trying to promote a book that's really the opposite of what I think is fasting. Anyway, I'm a little wacky with that.

Melanie Avalon: Then they can come over to my show. [laughs] Everybody welcome.

Gin Stephens: I'm here to talk about intermittent fasting stories.

Melanie Avalon: No, it makes sense because you want everything to be in line with what you're doing. So, my show is the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, the point of it is to bring on people of all different--

Gin Stephens: Diverse points of view.

Melanie Avalon: I think the only people I don't want to bring on are people who I feel-- well, it's hard for me to say that because so many people come on are very-- I don't use the word dogmatic, but they definitely think what they're doing is the “one right answer.” I prefer people who feel that there might be different approaches that work for different people. At the same time, in order for me to personally explore all the different options, I feel I have to bring on the people who believe in all the different options. Even if they believe that's the only option. Oh, Nutrisense. Yeah, so I'll put a link in the show notes. I interviewed the founder, Kara Collier. She's fantastic. That was at melanieavalon.com/nutrisense. I'm also going to release the episode with Levels. Right now, they both use FreeStyle Libre. They're different apps. They're both really valuable. They both work. I'm a fan. Levels is still in the beta testing phase right now, that was my reasoning for releasing the Nutrisense episode first because I want people to get it now. Once I release Levels, it's not even out yet, it's a waitlist. So that's why I've been in really hardcore promoting Nutrisense. Right now, the price point is better for Nutrisense and I want it to be most accessible to everybody.

I'm really hoping Levels brings down their price point. We'll see how that goes. I'm sitting on the episode and I might just release it once it's already out. So then that it's not a waitlist situation, but listeners, you can get 15% off on Nutrisense at melanieavalon.com/nutrisenseCGM with the coupon MELANIEAVALON, and yes, I have mine on right now.

Gin Stephens: Good stuff.

Melanie Avalon: That's why that came up. I would say we're talking about like things that monitor and tell us about our health. I wear the Oura ring now. I actually do think you would like the Oura ring.

Gin Stephens: I might. I'm weird about rings. I feel it's a little wide.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. It is big.

Gin Stephens: I don't like wide things on my fingers. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: You can put it on any finger. Does that matter?

Gin Stephens: I really don't like things on weird fingers.

Melanie Avalon: Okay.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: Like your pointer finger? No, I would go crazy. My friend, Sheri, has one. I'll try hers on and see. I'll see if I can handle it.

Melanie Avalon: I love it.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to see her next week.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just finding it so motivating. I'm actually bringing back the founder for a listener Q&A. I'm really excited.

Gin Stephens: Or, if they wanted to send me one, I would wear one. I would try it, but anyway.

Melanie Avalon: They actually only send tests. They don't let you keep it.

Gin Stephens: They don’t let you keep it. Yeah, that's funny.

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Gin Stephens: We're ready for our next question and this is from Grace. The subject is “Fruit and Hunger, High-Carb Definition.” “Hi, Melanie and Gin, I've been a fan of your podcasts, Facebook groups and apps for years. You both are the reason I've been able to maintain my weight and sanity. I greatly appreciate all the invaluable knowledge you provide. My question is about fruit. I have always eaten a significant amount of fruit between 50 to 70 grams of sugar daily from fruit. Since the quarantine, I had cut fruit completely out of my diet to lessen grocery shopping frequency. This decreased my sugar intake to five grams a day. I noticed my appetite decreased once I removed fruit. I've always had issues feeling satiated. I have never been able to portion control fruit because once I have a single serving, I always want more. I have been fasting for years now usually 18 to 20 hours daily. My hunger levels aren't from the adaptation period.

Melanie, you had said that you feel ravenous when fruit is in your diet. And I wanted to know if you had any scientific findings on why this is happening? Could it mean our bodies aren't processing it well? I also feel significantly bloated after consuming fruit. I just love it so much. I often look past the side effects.

Second question. You've mentioned, choosing between low carb or low fat. I started to follow a moderate protein, high carb, low-fat diet and am loving it. My question involves the definition of carbs. If someone is eating a low fat, high carb diet, do they need to make sure their diet is low sugar? Or is that insignificant if fat is low? Do the carbs need to be whole grain/complex carbs? Will refined carbs have a similar enough effect? I know the whole foods approach is the best. But if someone is eating low fat and the appropriate amount of food, will they gain fat eating refined carbs versus whole grains? Is the definition of low fat 15% or less of a person's daily macros? Thank you so much for all your life-changing advice. Love, Grace.” Wow, that's a lot of questions. [laughs] Grace, you're a gifted student, because they have a lot of questions.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you, Grace, for your email and all of your questions, all of the fruit. The first thing I want to focus on was she said, I said that I feel ravenous when fruit is in my diet. To clarify, so I was eating high carb, low fat for a very long time with a ton of fruit and I was not ravenous at all. And then I went low carb, high fat again. And then every time I tried to bring back fruit, that's what I got the ravenous feelings. Just to clarify, I actually currently am doing high carb, low fat, high fruit.

Gin Stephens: And how are you feeling?

Melanie Avalon: I'm still struggling with hunger. I'm still trying to figure it out.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I have to have a certain level of fat or I get hungry.

Melanie Avalon: I typically do have fat for meat and seafood, but it's not usually added fat. But I do have a lot of thoughts on this. It is all going to come back to as we always say is finding the diet that works for you. When it comes to fruit, I've seen this a lot, especially in my groups, which friends, join my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, people post about this all the time. I really want to talk about the sugar thing. I personally do not automatically equate fruit to sugar. I know technically fruit is sugar, but there's a big difference between refined sugar which Grace talks about a lot in her question as well. Like sugar, like white sugar, high fructose corn syrup, which I think it has a lot of metabolic issues compared to “sugar” from the natural whole foods form of fruit.

Please send it to me if you find one. I have never seen a study showing-- I should probably sit down, try to actually find one, but I have never seen a study showing negative metabolic effects from whole foods form of fruit. There might be one out there. Actually, I read a lot of studies about fruit, I guess it depends on the context, but there are a lot of studies showing fruit having beneficial effects on diabetes and things like that. It's usually things like blueberries and stuff that they're testing. The demonizing studies on fructose, which is what gets linked to fruit is usually on high fructose corn syrup, which you just can't compare. It’s basically the refined form of sugar in a liquid form and the ratio isn't even-- it's like even higher fructose than what would normally be found in fruit. It drives me crazy [unintelligible [00:49:33] what drives me crazy also is they will do studies on refined fructose and compared to refined glucose or something and they'll test the metabolic effects, and then people extrapolate from that. They're like, “Oh, fructose--”

Gin Stephens: Fruits bad and fruits bad. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, here's the thing, friends. Fruit is not 100% fructose anyway. It's usually fructose and glucose. Oftentimes, fructose and glucose and sucrose, which is a combination of fructose and glucose. There's no fruit where it's just refined fructose, that just doesn't happen. You get that from agave nectar, which-- okay, so now I'm on tangent.

Gin Stephens: Which had that halo effect of health. People like, “Agave nectar, it's so good for you.” No, no, no.

Melanie Avalon: People thought it was really great because fructose does not release insulin. I don't know if it's 100% it doesn't release it, but it has very minimal effect on insulin. It goes straight to the liver and is processed by the liver, compared to glucose, which instigates insulin to be shuttled into cells. People thought it was really great for diabetics. How it turns out is that refined fructose in the liver is not a good situation. That's where a lot of problems come from. It's linked to fatty liver, it just creates a lot of problems.

Gin Stephens: We have gone far from an “Apple a day keeps the doctor away,” to, “Oh, my God, apples are destroying your health.” No, they're not.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Looking at fruit in terms of sugar, I don't even like using the word sugar because I feel words are really powerful and semantics are really important. I would look at it as 50 to 70 carbs from fruit, that's the way I would look at it. All of that said, some people do really, really well on fruit and it works so well for them. It fixes their hunger. So many people in my group, historically, have been on a low carb, high-fat approach. And then, after listening to some of my episodes, like I did an episode with Cyrus and Robbie, who wrote Mastering Diabetes. That's at, melanieavalon.com/masteringdiabetes. I recently did an episode with Dr. Doug Graham who did The 80/10/10 Diet, that's at melanieavalon.com/801010. After listening to episodes like that, they decided to actually try a high carb, low fat approach.

This is not what Grace is experiencing, but many people have found that actually, finally they have satiety, they feel better, they lose weight. It's definitely something to try for a lot of people, if it's not working for you. Grace is experiencing hunger, then it might not be the thing that works for you.

Gin Stephens: Here's the thing, though, she did say that she's doing moderate protein, high carb, low fat and is loving it. I think the only problem is when she has a lot of fruit. It's like the fruit is causing her to not have satiety.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. Compared to grains or-- she's saying to the carbs need to be whole grain or complex carbs will work? Will refined carbs have a similar enough effect? Yeah, just you need to make sure that diet is low in sugar or is it just about the fat because we actually haven't had a question about that. We've received a lot of questions about going high carb, low fat. But we haven't had a question really about, could those carbs be processed sugar? Do they need to be grains? What they need to be complex? I think for most people, the refined form, if there is going to be a satiety problem, the refined form is probably not going to help you out in the satiety department. I would argue that probably a lot of the metabolic benefits that you're getting from the high-carb, low-fat approach are when it's in the whole foods form. It's really regulating your metabolism. Your body is preferentially using carbs when it needs to, it's entering the fasted state when you're fasted, but those blood sugar spiking, refined carbs are a completely different scenario.

I think they cause problems for a lot of people. I personally think it's important with a high carb, low fat to make them the whole food form of the carbs, and then trying to find the ones that work for you. For some people, it's the fruit. Some people do better with starches. I personally am not a big fan of grains, because I think they have a lot of inflammatory potential for a lot of people, but I think a lot of people can find grains that work for them. I personally love gluten-free options, like rice, quinoa, it's not technically a grain, but rice, quinoa, oats, things like that.

Then lastly, she said, “Can you gain fat eating refined carbs versus whole grains?” You can gain fat eating anything. I think you're more likely to gain fat 100% from refined carbs. Well, whole grains, I think in the refined form, you're most likely more likely to gain from refined forms of carbs. Then lastly, she says, “Is the definition of low fat 15% or less of a person's daily macros?” 15% is usually the highest that you'd want to go for the fat. If you are doing this approach. Oftentimes, it's as low as 10%. I don't remember in the Mastering Diabetes that they even-- I don't know if they even give macros. They might just do like a whole foods approach.

Gin Stephens: I swear I think it's 10%.

Melanie Avalon: Is it? I know 80/10/10 is obviously 10.

Gin Stephens: But I really feel I got that 10% after reading their book. I think they said it because that was when I looked to see what my DNA analysis had said and that was 10%. So, I was like, “Oh, look, these match.”

Melanie Avalon: Okay, from what I've seen in all the research, and Denise Minger, we talked about this a lot on this show, but she has an epic blog post that analyzes a high carb, low fat diet, and all the studies that she referenced, like you really had to be 10% or less of fat to see the benefits. That's something that when I interviewed them, we talked about that a lot. This also applies to the flip side of things with a low carb diet. Oftentimes, people really have to be 10%, or lower, be it from carbs or fat, depending on which version of what macros they're doing, to see that the metabolic benefits because it's like, if you have just a little bit too much, it's like you're shooting yourself in the foot, because you're giving your body too much of that one signal, even if it's by just a little bit, and then it's not really able to enter-- what Denise calls the “metabolic magic” that you can get from a high carb, low fat approach.

I'm just reading, this is really interesting, because I was searching through Mastering Diabetes. For example, in a low-fat diet, they say that and people who eat a high carbohydrate diet containing between 65% to 75% carbohydrate, this is 10% to 20% fat per day, de novo lipogenesis, which is fat created in your liver from carbs that accounted for less than 10 grams of newly synthesized fatty acids per day. Basically, if you are on a low-fat diet, really high carb, your liver is very inefficient at creating fat from the carbs, which is really fascinating. But, yeah, 10% would be a good place to start this really long. Gin, do you have thoughts?

Gin Stephens: I think we got them.

Melanie Avalon: I think so.

Gin Stephens: I think we did. If you find that fruit is making you have trouble with satiety, that's a big key that maybe-- the tweak that you've been having lately, where you're not having as much fruit, that might be what's working for you. I don't eat a ton of fruit personally. So, yeah, listen to your body. Boom.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that made me think of one more thing because she asked what might be going on there with the hunger. This has been my theory for a long time, and I still think this might be the case for a lot of people. It's what the Ray Peat people talk about a lot. That is that, your body's potential to rely on glycogen storage-- Oh, and actually something else to say about this, because this came up a lot in-- I've been listening to a podcast-- did I send it? I think I sent it to you, Gin, the recent Peter Attia podcast about metabolism.

Gin Stephens: You sent me something, I didn't have time to listen to it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm still listening to it and it's like, A, I need to finish it. B, I need to listen to it three more times. C, I need to see if there's a transcript and I need to read the transcript. It is the deepest, deepest dive into metabolic dysfunction and how that relates to processing fuels, glycogen storage, fatty acids, I mean, it's insulin resistance, it is blowing my mind. Something that he talks about in that is that, like with insulin resistance, where is the issue-- it's much more of a deep dive even then Dr. Benjamin Bikman’s book, which I recently had on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, his book is Why We Get Sick, which is all about insulin resistance. The Peter Attia episode which I put in our Intermittent Fasting podcast, Stuff We Like playlist on the Himalaya app, it's like a mystery novel. They're talking about where is the actual issue happening with the body's inability to use insulin and use food fuels properly. One of the things they talk about is basically the muscles inability to take up glucose, basically our glycogen storage potential and the muscles inability to properly use and take up carbs. I think that's what's happening a lot with this is, for whatever reason, the body is insulin resistant and not taking up the “sugar” from the fruit. It can create these blood sugar swings. I need to finish that episode. I'm going to try to do that today. I will probably just start it over listening from the beginning, it's that whole thing.

Gin Stephens: Listening to you describe it, tells me I could never follow it. I'm not a good auditory learner.

Melanie Avalon: It's intense when Peter at the beginning gives an intro saying like, “This is really intense--” because all of his shows are really intense. Any of his episodes that you listened to, they can be hard to follow. When he gives a preface saying that this is really, really deep, then you know it's going to be. I posted in my Facebook group and so many people, I'm jealous, they did listen to it and have been reporting back already. I'm like, “I’ve got to get on that.” That was a lot of tangents. Last thoughts from you, Gin?

Gin Stephens: No, that was it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners, before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. You can get all this stuff we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram. Gin, how is Instagram going?

Gin Stephens: I'm really doing better. I'm mindfully using it. Also, here's something funny. I had the app inside of a folder on my home screen, and so I took it out, just having it out of the folder and I see it, and I think about it more.

Melanie Avalon: I'm looking on your Instagram right now and I see your face.

Gin Stephens: There I am. I actually posted it during while we were recording. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yes, 46 minutes ago.

Gin Stephens: I did it while we were recording.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, in your house with your cats galore.

Gin Stephens: Well, the one I posted was me in front of the fireplace.

Melanie Avalon: The swamp. There's a picture of the swamp you went to.

Gin Stephens: Yep, there's the swamp. If you go to Instagram, you can see--

Melanie Avalon: You guys, visuals.

Gin Stephens: You can see the swamp. Oh, and also you can see that my college, Wake Forest, is going to the Duke’s Mayonnaise Bowl. Is that not the funniest thing you've ever heard of?

Melanie Avalon: That's fabulous.

Gin Stephens: It will have already happened by the time this podcast comes out, but I'll just see that on Instagram. Duke's Mayonnaise Bowl, but that's my favorite mayonnaise. So, boom.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh. That's so funny. Did you see I posted a video, a biohacking video?

Gin Stephens: No, I don’t watch any videos.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I posted my first. Wait, Gin, look at my Instagram later, I posted to Reels. Listeners, I'm doing Reels now. It makes me so happy because you know I love film. I went to film school. This is like, I'm like, “Oh, I can be like making videos.” I posted one if you go to my profile, one of me putting on a CGM. So, you can see what that's like, and then one about--

Gin Stephens: Is it like a live video?

Melanie Avalon: You'll see it. If you go to my Instagram, there's two recent ones, they look very red because I'm in my Joovv red light. There's a little video icon in the top right corner. Those are the Reels. So I put one of how to put on a CGM, so friends can see that. And then I put one of kind of a joke, when he finds out that you are a biohacker, like somebody you're dating. You have to watch it because it has music that it makes it a joke.

Gin Stephens: Well, do not expect to see me doing Reels, just FYI. I will not do Reels. If you're lucky, you'll see cats and things like that.

Melanie Avalon: I am obsessed. I have one that I'm going to really soon it's going to be my night routine. I got such an amazing response to the dating biohacking one that I sort of wanted to create an app now for dating, for biohackers.

Gin Stephens: We've actually had people joke that they would like an intermittent fasting dating app.

Melanie Avalon: Well, actually, that's what-- I was doing by hacking, but then I was like, it should be an--

Gin Stephens: Honestly, people have suggested that.

Melanie Avalon: Gin, we should do it.

Gin Stephens: For real.

Melanie Avalon: You know what it could be called? I already came up with a name. Do you want to hear the name? You know window shopping?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, it's because window dating.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's funny.

Melanie Avalon: And it can be based on your window.

Gin Stephens: Unfortunately, my app developer said no more apps for you, Mama. That's my son. [laughs] He should not be so quick to do that because the Window app that he made for me, he made it for me, but then he sold it. I didn't see a penny from that. I mean, I didn't make any money from the Window app at all. I went to him, which is indirectly helpful because it was my son, and so I didn't have to give him any money. He had money. He spent a lot of time working on that Window app. So, he's like, “Nope, done with that. Done with apps.” I'm like, “Okay.”

Melanie Avalon: I'm proposing that you and I make a Window Dating app.

Gin Stephens: Window Dating app. That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: We could promote it on this show and the groups.

Gin Stephens: All right, listeners, write in, let us know. Are you interested in that?

Melanie Avalon: Would you want this? Because I want to do it.

Gin Stephens: I don't know that. I don't want to date. I'm married.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I don't want to--- No, I actually wouldn't use it. I wouldn't use it. I'd be the worst person to develop it. I've never even opened a dating app.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to be celebrating my 30th anniversary this year in 2021. So, 30 years married. We didn't have apps.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I just don't date, so solves that problem. We should do it.

Gin Stephens: Again, neither of us know how to do it. We don't know anything about dating apps.

Melanie Avalon: I'll figure it out. I can suck it up and use a dating app for research purposes.

Gin Stephens: That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: Wouldn’t that be funny? I could start going-- [crosstalk]

Gin Stephens: The joke was, you know how they had that commercial farmersonly.com? farmersonly.com or something. I don't know. We could be fastersonly.com.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I like it. That would be a really good movie plot. Somebody's doing research for dating apps, so they have to use the apps and then they fall in love obviously, and then you know--

Gin Stephens: Well, there you go, see. And they're intermittent fasters and-- it would need to be an intermittent fasting movie.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, well, I could be testing my own app. I'd have to use the other apps to figure out--

Gin Stephens: What you liked and what you didn't.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Listeners, I do not think we're going to be developing this app, I'm just telling you.

Melanie Avalon: I think we are.

Gin Stephens: Do not look for this app anytime soon.

Melanie Avalon: I'm doing it. I'm going to hang up and I'm going to go call somebody right now.

Gin Stephens: You're going to join the dating apps? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: No, I actually been thinking about this a lot. The one thing I'm hesitant about is, I feel the customer service issue because my app right now, I mean, it's doing so well and I think I said this, it hit number five for Food and Drinks Apps in iTunes, which was so exciting, and it was developed by Cal, Gin’s son, but it doesn't really have a lot of like customers-- I don't have to deal with customer service. I feel with a dating app.

Gin Stephens: You would. See, Cal does app stuff for Airbnb, but he's on one tiny little team, I can't even remember what it is. There are so many people who work just on that one app, for example for Airbnb. It's not like one person does it. It's like teams of people for each little thing. It's way more complicated when you have users doing.

Melanie Avalon: It would require more. For me, it wouldn’t.

Gin Stephens: I think it would.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe we could do it all ourselves.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Listeners, do not be on the lookout for this anytime soon.

Melanie Avalon: Write in now and tell us that you want this. Convince Gin, I'm already sold.

Gin Stephens: That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Okay. Well, this has been wonderful.

Gin Stephens: It's been fun.

Melanie Avalon: Anything else from you, Gin? Oh, right, follow us on Instagram. She's GinStephens. I'm MelanieAvalon. Now I'm done. Anything from you, Gin, before we go.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I see that you just liked my picture that I posted while we were recording. Do you see how good my hair looks in the picture? I'm just going to say that's Beautycounter shampoo. My hair looks so much better.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, your hair looks fabulous.

Gin Stephens: Doesn't it? I just use Beautycounter shampoo, that's it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm Beautycounter shampoo.

Gin Stephens: How could one kind of shampoo? They don't have all these varieties. It's one kind, I was like, “Yeah, that's not going to work.” Well, alas, it does. My hair looks so good now. That's all I'm saying.

Melanie Avalon: All of my pictures of my hair's Beautycounter shampoo as well. Friends, go get Beautycounter shampoo right now. You can get that melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jan 10

Episode 195: Ketones, Insulin Resistance, Measuring Insulin, Alcohol, Resting Heart Rate, Heart Rate Variability, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 195 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by: 

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SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

8:40 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To DrinkLMNT.Com/Ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!!

14:30 - Listener Q&A: Sallie - Question for Gin

21:00 - INSIDETRACKER: Go To MelanieAvalon.Com/GetInsideTracker And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

23:25 - Listener Q&A: Michelle - In Search of lower Insulin

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #74 - Benjamin Bikman, Ph.D.

Why We Get Sick: The Hidden Epidemic At The Root Of Most Chronic Disease―And How To Fight It (Benjamin Bikman, Ph.D.)

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #70 - Kara Collier (Nutrisense)

Go To Melanieavalon.com/nutrisenseCGM And Use Coupon Code MelanieAvalon For 15% Off Select Packages

36:15 - BIOPTIMIZERS: Go To bioptimizers.com/ifpodcast And Use The Coupon Code IFPODCAST10 To Save 10% Any Order!

38:00 - Listener Q&A: Sara - HANGRY still - sometimes

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To DryFarmWines.com/IFPodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

43:30 - Listener Q&A: Kelly - Alcohol effects on Resting Heart Rate

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 195 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, are you struggling to lose weight despite fasting clean? Maybe you're even making healthy food choices, fasting more, shortening your eating window, ramping up your exercise, and yet the weight won't budge? Well, we actually just found a major reason for why that may be. As it turns out, there are compounds in our environment called endocrine disruptors. Meaning, they mess with your hormones. Studies show that a lot of these endocrine disruptors are actually obesogens. Meaning, they literally make you gain weight. They also make it hard to lose weight. These toxic obesogens are naturally stored in fat. When they enter your body, your body creates fat to store them in to protect you. Once they're in that fat, they then change the genes in your fat stores, so that you are more likely to store more fat and less likely to burn it. They can also affect your insulin signaling and boost your appetite, so you want to eat more and store more fat.

Most of us are actually exposed to these obesogenic endocrine disruptors daily in our skincare and makeup, that is actually one of the largest sources of these compounds. Yep. As it turns out, when you're washing your face, putting on makeup, using lotion, or even putting on sunscreen, you are likely putting one up to 1300 compounds banned in Europe for their toxicity and obesity causing potential but they're completely fine for use in US skincare. When you put them on your skin, you're making it that much harder to burn fat, and that much easier to store fat. So, if you're struggling to lose weight, you definitely, definitely want to clean up your skincare ASAP. You can do that easily with a company called Beautycounter.

They make safe skincare and makeup products that are extensively tested to be free of endocrine disrupters, obesogens, and other toxic compounds. They're truly safe and supportive of your health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. If you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you'd also like exclusive discounts, giveaways, and the latest on the science of skincare, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Well now you can. All right now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome, this is Episode number 195 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm good. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I am great.

Gin Stephens: You sound super great. What's super great? That was like more emphatic great than usual.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really, really fantastic. Are you aware of what happened this past weekend?

Gin Stephens: Well, no. I'm not aware. What was it?

Melanie Avalon: Taylor Swift released a surprise album.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, definitely not aware of that. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: This is the second time she's done this in quarantine where she doesn't say anything, and then she releases an entire album. I always feel like I have to defend myself being a Taylor Swift fan. But her first album is the bestselling album of 2020, and I am obsessed lyrically with Taylor. Do you Spotify?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, you know what it is though, right?

Gin Stephens: I mean, yeah, I do know what it is. I have Apple Music, so I listen to Apple Music. I'm an Apple girl. I listen to Apple Music and I listen to my podcasts through the Apple Music app.

Melanie Avalon: Well, Spotify, they give you a Your Year in Review thing and they show you like your top artists and your top song and everything. Well, obviously mine was Taylor, but the shocking thing was it told me I was in the 0.5% of her listeners. I feel like you have to listen to a lot of Taylor Swift to be in the 0.5.

Gin Stephens: Hmm. I'm probably in the 95.5 [laughs] or 99.5. I should say. There's one song I know that I've heard that I liked.

Melanie Avalon: Which one?

Gin Stephens: I don't know the name of it, but I know I liked it. If you'd like saying all of them, I'd be like, “Yeah, that's the one I've heard.”

Melanie Avalon: All Too Well?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Okay.

Gin Stephens: [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Sorry. Very few things just like light me up with the amount of excitement that I was lit up with.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm so glad to hear it. You don't listen to Apple Music, you listen to Spotify?

Melanie Avalon: No. Yeah, Spotify. I've been in Spotify person since it came out, really. I remember when it first came out, and I was like, “Wow, how is this even possible?”

Gin Stephens: The idea of just listening to whatever you wanted, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “There has to be a catch here.”

Gin Stephens: Yeah, there wasn't. Look, I'm old enough to remember the days of Napster when everyone was just giving away their music for free and illegally.

Melanie Avalon: And always wondering if you were going to infect your computer with, because on Napster, you could get anything you want, and it was all free.

Gin Stephens: Anything. Yeah, and it was all terrible. Now that I understand how we were all stealing music, it was bad, very bad, but I didn't know.

Melanie Avalon: They actually started suing people who had it, do you remember that?

Gin Stephens: No. I was probably off of it by them because I'm such a rules follower that as soon as I realized, “Oh, gosh, this is not just like listening to the radio,” because-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I remember they brought out the scare tactics. I think they locked up a few. I don't know, they sued some people, like my age who were using it, I mean, it ruined their life basically.

Gin Stephens: Well, now that we are producers of content, like books, I completely understand. If all of the books we ever wrote were now available for free illegally, and people were just able to share them, that would be terrible.

Melanie Avalon: If people paid for this show, and then it was--

Gin Stephens: Right. As soon as I realized it was wrong, I was like, “Oh my God. [laughs] I'm breaking the law.”

Melanie Avalon: Get it off the computer.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, exactly. I like to follow the law. Anyway, but it was fun while it lasted. And now that we have Apple Music, everything really is there, or Spotify or whichever you like. It really is amazing because you used to have to buy them one by one. I mean, you don't even remember the day of like driving to the music store, I'm sure. Listening to 45, did you have a record player?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no. Well, I do now, with my Taylor Swift albums.

Gin Stephens: On a record player?

Melanie Avalon: Uh-huh.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Vinyl.

Gin Stephens: That's so funny. We had vinyl everything, but we had little 45s. Have you ever seen a 45?

Melanie Avalon: I think I have. I think my dad has some.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that was the way to do it. You'd go get the one little single and there was always something on the other side and you'd flip it over. Then you would play them over and over again. Good times.

Melanie Avalon: Good times. I remember cassettes.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Because Chick-fil-A had all the-- we talked about this before the-- What is it, the virtues, the--

Gin Stephens: The cassettes that you could get. I remember that. Yeah, the freedom with music now is just remarkable, though. So, I'm glad that there's another album. She's been very productive it sounds.

Melanie Avalon: I have one more really exciting announcement, actually related to the content of today's show.

Gin Stephens: Well, awesome. What is that?

Melanie Avalon: It's so exciting. You know what it is, though? I think it's really exciting.

Gin Stephens: Well, share the excitement. So, friends, listeners, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm about to give away completely free electrolyte supplements. That's not even what I'm so excited about, even though that is very exciting. Mostly it's because we are partnering with Robb Wolf's company, LMNT. As you guys know, Robb Wolf is my hero. He is the reason that I am in the whole paleo world. Like I read Paleo Solution, and then that's what happened. I think he is an amazing figure of information. I don't want to say authority figure, but I really get the sense that he doesn't cherry-pick that he's open to the science, the information and I really trust his information.

He recently started a company called LMNT, L-M-N-T. Tailored towards listeners who may be following specifically keto diets, because as you guys know, Gin and I are not keto. I go through times of keto. Gin had her keto phases in the past, but they--

Gin Stephens: 2014.

Melanie Avalon: She is no longer keto. I'm not currently keto. I flirt with it occasionally, but in any case, if you have heard of something called the keto flu, it is often posited that the keto flu is not actually a condition, but it may be for a lot of people due to electrolyte issues, and that is because when you go on a low-carb diet, your insulin levels drop, and we know our insulin levels drop off fasting, but when you're doing low-carb, they're significantly drops all the time, and that lowers the production of a hormone called aldosterone. Aldosterone is made in the kidneys. Aldosterone helps you retain sodium. When you have chronically low aldosterone on a keto diet, you are losing sodium at a rapid rate. That is why a lot of people may experience symptoms of keto flu. So, that's things like headaches, fatigue, muscle cramps, insomnia, all this stuff. To address this, Gin, are you familiar with Ketogains?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Ketogains is probably, I would say it is the biggest keto community out there. The founder is Luis and I can never say his last name. It's like Villasenor. He and Robb actually developed-- I don't know if he would like actually developed it, but Rob worked with him to develop LMNT to have the exact electrolyte balance that you need to support your electrolyte status, especially if you're on a keto diet. Some people having carbs in their eating window and fasting might also benefit from the electrolyte supplements, but it really varies by the individual. In any case, they made LMNT, and it has no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no junk. They have flavored and unflavored versions. The reason I'm also excited, the flavored versions, those are not clean fast friendly, obviously, because they have flavor. There is a raspberry, a citrus, and an orange flavor. The raw unflavored one is clean fast friendly. It's literally just electrolytes. If you feel like you are on the electric-like struggle bus, you can have the raw unflavored version during your clean fast.

I didn't realize this. This is not just like some small company. They're doing really big things. They work with three Navy SEAL teams. They are the official hydration partner for the USA weightlifting team in the Olympics, which is really cool. They've worked with a lot of other people, like five or more NFL teams. So basically, it's a really cool way to go. I'm so excited because you can get it, listeners, completely free. They weren't going to do this, they were just going to have our spots be educational and tell you about them, but I begged them for something. It's not even a discount, it's free. You can get their sample pack and that will include two raw unflavored. Again, those are the clean fast friendly ones. Two citrus, two raspberry and two orange. Again, the flavor ones you would want to have in your eating window. Apparently, the citrus one is a really great mix for Margarita, word on the street. I have friends who do that. It was actually in the information they gave us, I was like, “Oh, if this makes sense.” But you can just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom, forward slash, ifpodcast. They will cost $5 for shipping only. That's the only thing you'll pay. If you don't like it, they will refund you the $5 for shipping. So, don't even worry about that. This free giveaway is only for January. So, guys, get it.

I'm just so excited because we're like working with Robb Wolf and I love this product. This is so exciting to me, and free things.

Gin Stephens: I'm so happy that you're happy.

Melanie Avalon: And free things for listeners.

Gin Stephens: Well, free things are always good.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Everybody, go get it now. I think people on the keto diet who are experiencing these issues like this could be a game-changer for them. Even if you're not, get it for the flavors and get the citrus one and make margaritas and report back.

Gin Stephens: Eating window margaritas.

Melanie Avalon: Eating window margaritas.

Gin Stephens: It's like, “I heard Gin and Melanie say that you could have margaritas during the fast.” No, no, that is not what we said.

Melanie Avalon: Clarification. Eating window margarita with all clean ingredients

Gin Stephens: Fasting with Margarita, that's a joke. Do not fast with Margaritas. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yes. All right. That's that. Shall we jump into our questions for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: To start things off, we have a super short question. The subject is “Question for Gin.” It's from Sally. Sally says, “Hi, Gin. What made you keep going at your second attempt at IF? When did you start seeing results and what results did you see?” Maybe you can tell us a little bit about your first versus second attempt.

Gin Stephens: Really, I did not keep going at my second attempt, nor my third. It was more multiple, multiple. I first heard about intermittent fasting in 2009, and I've talked about this many times over the course of this podcast and Intermittent Fasting Stories and even in my books, and in the Mindset chapter of Fast. Feast. Repeat. I tried it multiple times, many times over those years from 2009 to 2014. For anyone who has Fast. Feast. Repeat., I really get into why it didn't work for me in all those attempts, in the Mindset chapter. There were several things that were the problem.

First of all, I didn't understand clean fasting. In fact, no one did, because everyone really thought that intermittent fasting was only something that helped to “eat fewer calories.” We thought that anything that was zero calorie was going to be fine. Even if you had just a little bit of calories, that was probably also fine. Fasting was really, really hard. I was white knuckling it all the time, because I was not fasting clean.

Second of all, I didn't understand about the adjustment period, and that your body needed to get fat adapted and so I would start and stop. I feel like I was constantly trapped in the adjustment period, my body never got fat adapted, I just kept living in the hard part. Never got through to where it was easier. Plus, I wasn't fasting clean, put all that together, it was doomed to fail.

Third, I expected weight loss to be linear. I would do it for a few days, it would be hard, I wouldn't lose any weight, and then I would quit. The time that it finally stuck, I still wasn't fasting clean yet, because remember, this was 2014. It was well before The Obesity Code. It was before we understood the hormonal things that go in our bodies while we're fasting. I had been doing keto, that we just talked about, that keto summer that I had, the summer of 2014. I didn't lose any weight, but I was in ketosis. I had a ketone breath monitor. It was one of the early Ketonix models. I was doing keto and I would blow in the Ketonix and I would get red. I was making ketones, but the way I was eating, I wasn't tapping into my stored body fat. I think it was just all the fat I was consuming, putting me into ketosis.

It was at that time that I shifted to intermittent fasting, because I was like, “I'm not losing weight. I don't feel good. Keto is not working well for me. I am going to do intermittent fasting, and this time, it's going to work for me, darn it.” Amazingly, that was the time I never did quit. I think that doing keto for that whole summer obviously, my body was making ketones. I was fat adapted. Suddenly, intermittent fasting was easier than it had been before. I also remember, Melanie, this is how little I understood at the time. I remember a post that I had made on an intermittent fasting group I was in, it wasn't one of my groups. Obviously, I hadn't started one yet, but I remember, I had like a cheeseburger and fries. An hour later was blowing on the Ketonix and registering a red. I'm like, “I'm already back in ketosis. This is amazing.” Well, no, that's not what's happening. Those were ketones that I had made during the fast and I believe that obviously, I was excreting them through my breath. Even though I had just had a cheeseburger and fries. I thought I was back in ketosis. It would be amazing. I didn't know what I was talking about. It was before we understood that, or before I understood that fasting got you into ketosis as well. Now that we understand about liver glycogen, and glycogen depletion, and all of that.

Fasting was easier because I was fat-adapted, thanks to the keto. Also, I immediately started losing weight. Finally. After that whole summer of not losing weight with keto, and also, I was weighing daily and calculating my weekly average. So, I saw the weight loss. Even though my weight fluctuated day to day, I saw week to week, my weekly average was going down. Finally, I saw success. So that was why when I write Fast. Feast. Repeat., I'm emphatic about not expecting weight loss during your first 28 days. Even when you do have weight loss, don't expect it to be linear. First of all, your body has to adapt. And then you have to be aware of how weight fluctuates and that it's only the overall trend that matters. Once I made that shift and understood it was the overall trend, then I could stick with it. I wasn't looking for down, down, down, down, down because that's not what weight loss looks like. And I just felt so much better. After not feeling good doing keto for that whole summer, reintroducing carbs, and intermittent fasting at the same time, feeling better seeing the results I was looking for, that was when it truly over time turned into a lifestyle. I didn't understand it was a lifestyle still as I was losing the weight, it wasn't until later, when I started to understand the health benefits. Intermittent Fasting is more than just weight loss. It took me becoming educated. The more educated I got, the more I realized this is something I would do forever. So, there it is. Anything to add?

Melanie Avalon: Our experiences, we're complete opposite. I was like, “I'm going to do this for a week,” and then I never stopped.

Gin Stephens: You were eating paleo before you started?

Melanie Avalon: Low carb.

Gin Stephens: You were low carb. See, again, we both transitioned from low-carb and started doing it. I never quit again. See, that's the thing. When I started in 2014, I never quit again.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, mine was low-carb IF and then paleo. That was like the--

Gin Stephens: The transition. Yeah. Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. I wanted to tell you about one of the most incredible resources for taking charge of your blood tests and lab work, ever. I am a huge fan of a company called InsideTracker. They are actually a David Sinclair partnered company. What they do is they provide access to the blood tests that you need to be testing, as well as interpretations, so that you can figure out what that all means.

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Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Michelle, and the subject is “In Search of Lower Insulin.” She says, “Dear Gin and Melanie, thank you for changing lives. Gin's advice about not chasing ketone readings makes sense to me. As your body uses ketones more efficiently, your blood ketone level may drop. I'm wondering if I can use my blood ketone levels for a different purpose. So please bear with me. I would love to be able to directly test my insulin levels at home, but alas. As I understand it, a higher ketone reading should indicate a lower insulin level. For example, if ketones were 0.5 to 1.0, insulin would have to be fairly low. Is this true? Do we know if a certain ketone level corresponds to a certain range of insulin level? I accept that the converse doesn't indicate anything. So, I could have lower insulin without having high ketones. I tend to have pretty high ketones fasting around 24 to 22 with the occasional longer fast. I'd love to take my ketone readings as a good insulin sign. I am not diabetic or pre-diabetic, A1c 4.9. But I do wonder if I have some insulin resistance, and I'd love to have a gauge on how certain foods affect my insulin. Best wishes to you both, Michelle.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Michelle. Thank you so much for your question. My initial thoughts are that there is most likely the correlation, with the exception of, I was just thinking that this follows up pretty appropriately to what you were just saying, Gin, because you had that experience where you measured ketones, but it was right after eating a cheeseburger. So, it really would depend on where the ketones are coming from. I don't think this is the case for Michelle. Especially if you're following like a ketogenic diet, you could, in theory, always measure ketones, but there would still be insulin release when you're in the fed state. You can be producing ketones and be producing insulin, but if you're in the fasted state, and you measure ketones, probably your insulin is low, but the whole issue is, with insulin resistance, people can experience higher baseline levels of insulin and not realize it. If you're generating ketones, that way it would imply that, hopefully, your body is fat adapted, and the insulin is working correctly, but I can't really make blanket statements about it, especially after reading, for people who want like the deepest dive into insulin ever, check out Dr. Bikman’s Why We Get Sick. I also interviewed him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, that episode might be out when this show comes out. I'll put a link to it in the show notes.

I don't want to say correctly working body but if things are working the way they should be, there should be a correlation, but then there could also be lots of other factors that might finagle it. What are your thoughts, Gin?

Gin Stephens: We don't have a gauge. She said she'd love to have a gauge about how certain foods affect her insulin. I wish we could measure at home like that, but we can't. Minute to minute, you can't know what your influence doing. For example, a friend of mine is using a company called Walk-In Lab. I don't know anything about that company, she just mentioned that she was using it and they're able to order the test for you. I'm imagining that they have physicians on staff, they look at your request, and then they approve it or not. You can actually get that through companies like Walk-In Lab. I'm not endorsing Walk-In Lab, I don't know anything about them, like I said other than a friend of mine, just use them and mention their name to me. So that would give you an idea of what your fasted insulin level is. Obviously, you can't do that all day. I wish we had an at-home insulin test, or a way to know exactly what it was doing.

If you're interested in going down that rabbit hole of ketones and what's going on, there's somebody named Marty Kendall of Optimising Nutrition, optimizing with an S because he's from Australia. He's got some really great stuff. I've learned a lot from reading his blog over the years. In fact, some of his stuff on ketone levels actually is what taught me that our ketone levels went down over time. So, chasing a high-- I actually learned that from Marty Kendall. Go to OptimisingNutrition.com with an S for optimizing and dig in through there. He's a big proponent of measuring your blood glucose before you eat, to give you an idea of what's going on. That's just something there to check out.

I wish we could see how certain foods affected your insulin because proteins there. It's not just carbs that affect insulin. Thanks to the insulin index we know that proteins also affect your insulin levels, and even fats do, to a degree. The whole idea that fat has a zero effect on insulin is not true.

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Bikman actually talks about all of that in Why We Get Sick. Yeah, because actually protein I believe, it releases comparable or even more insulin than carbs, but it also releases glucagon, which has the opposite effect. It doesn't have the same effect on your overall blood sugar levels and state as far as the connection to insulin as straight-up carbs do. It's pretty complicated.

Gin Stephens: It's also complicated.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really fascinated by protein, and I found this one study that was looking at protein and diabetics, and it was theorizing or going through all of the research on protein and diabetics because protein can be turned into blood sugar, or sugar, carbs via gluconeogenesis. And it does, that does happen, but for some reason, it doesn't really seem to affect blood sugar levels. They don't really know why. There's all these theories like that the blood sugar that gets produced from protein gets used faster than it would into the bloodstream. There was like three different theories, but I find it so interesting that we know so much about the body, but then we still don't know really seemingly basic things, like we can't figure that out.

Gin Stephens: Which is why to me, that helps me to be like, “Why worry so much about it then?” If you're healthy, look, you're A1c is 4.9, so I don't know why it matters. If you're healthy, you've got a healthy A1c, you're wondering if you have insulin resistance? Well, do you have signs that you do? I just wouldn't worry about it is what I'm saying. If you're healthy and your health markers are good, you don't have to know what your levels are. I know it's interesting, and sometimes some of the things we don't even-- like Melanie just said, we don't even really understand all of it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, when I found that study, it was so long. It was a review, and I was like, “This is the best thing I've ever read,” like eating protein and diabetic patients. Actually, I'm glad you said that, because I was just thinking, a good enough proxy-- she's measuring blood ketones, is she measuring blood sugar, though?

Gin Stephens: It doesn't look like it.

Melanie Avalon: Michelle, I think that's what you could measure at home.

Gin Stephens: There's a ratio that you can figure out with your ketone reading and your blood glucose reading. A lot of people are using, I think Marty Kendall’s--

Melanie Avalon: For autophagy.

Gin Stephens: I'm not sold on that. I won't get into that. To measure your fat burning, basically, they're using it-- I think he calls it Data-Driven Fasting, and there are a lot of people following his protocol where they are measuring their blood glucose and measuring their ketones and then doing some sort of ratio of that to determine your fat-burning state. People are finding great success with that. I don't want to measure all that. I know some people do, I actually interviewed someone recently on Intermittent Fasting Stories, the episode won't come out till February, I believe. But she talked about how she's using his ratio, and it's really been helpful for her.

Melanie Avalon: The last thing was I did just release the episode with Kara Collier, the founder of Nutrisense CGMs. I don't know anything about this. Michelle, if this is what you're looking to ascertain your level of insulin resistance, wearing a CGM, doing a round of CGMs could-- I mean, that, for me has been the most eye-opening thing as far as how are foods affecting me, you see how foods affect you. You see like, is your blood sugar level-- how is it rising? How long does it take to get back to normal? Rather than focusing on insulin, and we talk in that episode all about, like the implications of how it relates to insulin, but I think that would be the thing you'd want to do. I'm writing a guest blog post for Sunlighten, which is really fun. They wanted me to write a blog post on health and wellness trends for 2021. I had to decide what did I think would be the biggest health and wellness trends for 2021. One of them is CGMs.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I hope so because they're such a useful tool. They're not a toy. They're a powerful tool for figuring out how your body responds. But, really, Michelle, I would get a fasted insulin level. If you're a morning fasted insulin level, you'll have an idea. I mean, if it's five or something really low like that, or below five, then chances are you're not insulin resistant. If it's like 10, okay, that's a good signal that you're going to need to do some work. You don't need to know how it responds all day long. It's that fasted insulin level that'll really give you a good picture.

Melanie Avalon: The good thing about that is, I feel it's not as finicky is because wearing a CGM, the one thing I realized is, “Oh, your blood sugar could be changing a lot more than you realize.” But I think for a fasted insulin is pretty telling. I'll give you the ranges that Dr. Benjamin Bikman gives. According to Dr. Bikman, ideally your blood insulin levels should be less than six micro units per milliliter. Eight to nine is average for men and women, but he says it's not good to be average, you would prefer for it to be lower, a person with eight actually has doubled the risk of developing type 2 diabetes as a person with five. I guess anything over nine is above average.

Gin Stephens: In a way that you don't want to be above average.

Melanie Avalon: Right. He says you don't even want to be average, which is eight to nine. He would prefer that you are below six fasted insulin. Then on top of that, there's a secondary value that you can calculate if you want, it's the HOMA score. That one actually considers both fasting glucose and fasting insulin. It is even more telling for your levels of insulin resistance. At the time that you got your fasted insulin measured, you would also have to have had your fasted blood sugar measured as well. If you have those two, there's a mathematical formula that you can do that will give you your HOMA score, which is a number. It's complicated. It's basically glucose times insulin divided by 405. So, random for the United States, or glucose times insulin divided by 22.5 for other countries. That is so random. I don't know. I feel like we have provided all the potential data we can on this.

Gin Stephens: I think so too. That's a lot of data. Yeah. Also don't have coffee before you go because coffee can cause your liver to dump glycogen, your blood glucose can go up, and then therefore, you can have a little insulin urge, too. Go completely with nothing but water.

Melanie Avalon: Good call. One more last resource for you, Michelle. I will put in the show notes the link to the episode that I did with Kara Collier of Nutrisense. Then if you'd like to get your own CGM, or if any listeners would, you can get 15% off. The link for that is melanieavalon.com/nutrisensecgm. I will also put that in the show notes. Listeners, there will be a transcript of this episode in the show notes, so that will be at ifpodcast.com/episode195, which also I do need to plug. I don't know if any of the episodes have aired yet where we asked for questions for Episode 200 because we haven't received any questions, so I'm guessing not, but listeners for Episode 200, random plug, it's going to be an Ask Me Anything episode so you can submit any questions you want for that. They don't have to be health or fasting related. They can just be like, questions for me and Gin.

Gin Stephens: Awesome. I look forward to the questions.

Melanie Avalon: Like what is my favorite Taylor Swift song?

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Don't ask me what my favorite Taylor Swift song is. I'd be like, “That's the one I heard that time.” [laughs]

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to the next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: The next question comes from Sara. The subject is “Hangry Still Sometimes.” Sara says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, I'm a solid three weeks in of doing IF daily 18:6 to 22:2. Eating to satiety and I am still having days where I'm hangry in the morning.” For listeners, 18:6 is where you fast 18 hours and eat for 6, and 22:2 is where you fast 22 hours and eat for two hours. She says, “I've done one meal a day and IF for years without knowing it was a thing, just because I don't seem to digest well, and I feel better eating one meal a day. I've gone months and years not listening to my body and creating issues for myself. This is now my everyday life and I won't go back. Can be hangry be from eating late in the evening? It's weird and maybe a coincidence that it's worse on days that we ate late the night before. Thanks for all of the product recommendations. Can't wait to see if I can be headache-free of Dry Farm Wines and all that you do.

I just found out my aunt and uncle are following you, have read your books and are in love with IF and losing weight and having tons of non-scale victories. Someone told my aunt she is aging in reverse, ha, ha. And then was worried about her when my aunt told her about IF. Thanks for helping people live their best life. Sara. Gin, what are your thoughts for Sara?

Gin Stephens: Well, first of all, I love that your aunt and uncle are following intermittent fasting and aging in reverse. As people around her watch her continue to look fabulous, that won't look so crazy anymore. That's how it seems to work. Once you're successful and you show it, people are like suddenly believers. All right, so your question is, “Can hangry be from eating late in the evening?” Well, let's think about this. First of all, you're three weeks in so even though you've dabbled in intermittent fasting here and there, it doesn't It sounds like you've consistently done it. So, you're still probably in the adjustment period. Hangry is more likely during the adjustment period than it is, once you're adjusted. The question, can you be more hangry in the morning, if you eat late in the evening? Let's think about this. Why do we feel great and have lots of energy during the fast? Well, it's because we're tapping into our fat stores, as we go through the fasts, I actually feel better. I might have a little wave of hunger right around hour, I don't know, 14, 16, something like that. Then on the other side of that, I feel fabulous. If you eat late in the evening, to start counting from then, you're not going to be as far into the fast by the morning, depending on what time you stopped eating. If you stayed up really late and ate till like midnight, and now it's morning, you're only maybe seven, eight hours into the fast. So, you're really not in the fasted state yet. Yeah, you would be more likely to be hangry. Just count back and see how far you are into the fast that could really play a role in it. What do you think about that, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Two main thoughts. One was that exactly, that you know you're quite into the fasted state yet. That said, I really associate the hangry feeling with blood sugar regulation issues, because I find people who-- if they are eating, and they don't have blood sugar regulation issues, they don't tend to ever get the hangry feeling. It's really the people who have difficulty transitioning into the fat-burning state, like the body's a little bit like hesitant to do it for whatever reason. I think that's when the hangry feeling comes in.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think so too, which is why the fact that she's only three weeks in is also very important.

Melanie Avalon: It could be that the context of when she's eating late, it could correlate to meals, not-- well, she already said she has digestion issues. So maybe meals not digesting as well, maybe macronutrients not really working for her. It could be a combination of things, but it could possibly be something about the actual meal itself, like the contents of the meal itself, rather than the timing.

Gin Stephens: Or, those together. The factors together. If I'm eating really late at night, it's probably because I'm out and I'm off my schedule, and I'm eating different things than I would normally be eating. So, all that plays in, plus the fact that it's not as many hours since I stopped eating. It's just a lot of factors.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. That's what I was trying to say. I'm glad you said that. It often correlates to a slight disruption in your normal eating pattern that might be something more suitable to your blood sugar regulation and your digestion and everything. Let us know if the Dry Farm Wines makes you headache-free. I'm going to give my mom a box of whites, and my dad a box of reds for the holidays. I'm so excited.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, by the time this comes out, the holidays will be over, but that's what I'm giving Chad. I'm making sure he's not like listening, the box of reds.

Melanie Avalon: That's right. For listeners, if you'd like to get a bottle for a penny, our link for that is dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast.

Gin Stephens: Awesome. I highly recommend it.

Melanie Avalon: Speaking of, the next question. I did not plan this.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's funny. Okay. Oh, I could definitely answer this one for with some data of my own. All right. This is from Kelly. The subject is “Alcohol Effects on Resting Heart Rate.” “Hello ladies, I've been listening to and following IF/One Meal a Day since January. I'm down 10 pounds. I'm loving this lifestyle. Thankful that my co-workers introduced me to this way of life before quarantine hit in March. I have a question regarding alcohol and resting heart rate. I noticed when I go for more than a week without alcohol, my Fitbit says that my resting heart rate can be as low as 56. When I go away to the beach on the weekends and have a good amount of wine and white claws, but all within good limits, of course, my resting heart rate can skyrocket up to 64. I also noticed on the beach weekends when we are less physically active with alcohol, that also makes the RHR go up. Just wanted to know your thoughts on this. Thank you for always having great insight and topics to discuss on the podcast. I truly learned so much from you both. It makes keeping this lifestyle maintainable and achievable that much easier.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Kelly. Thank you for your question. Oh, my goodness. This is one of my recent obsessions, the resting heart rate. I talked about this before, but I actually did just interview the CEO of Oura ring, which I've been wearing for-- I don't know like a month now or so. It's so, so cool during the nighttime, it measures your resting heart rate, measures your heart rate variability, it measures your body temperature, it measures your activity levels during the day, it measures your respiratory rate. It gives you a really good idea of-- if you're recovering from your activities, how your body is doing, because basically, for some terminology here, so our resting heart rate is, it's the consistent rate of our heartbeat. Lower is typically considered to be better. It does go up when you're exercising, though. So that's why they call it resting heart rate is what you're looking at. Heart rate variability is the amount of time measured in milliseconds between heartbeats.

What's really interesting is you would think that you want your heart rate to be very consistent. I mean, that's intuitively what I would think, but what you actually want is it to be more erratic, because it shows that your body is adapting and reacting to stressors. A constant thumping on a pattern, that's actually signifies the stress state because if you think about when you're really stressed, what happens? It's like you're on alert and it's like--

Gin Stephens: [imitating heartbeat sound effect] Sound effects by Gin.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. [laughs] Thank you, Gin. It's like not changing. Compared to being more fluid and reacting to everything that comes at you, there's a time lag and a time difference in between heartbeats and that's heart rate variability. So, you actually want more heart rate variability, that was just some information for listeners. Things that affect resting heart rate, the cool thing about Oura, I'm just pulling out my Oura app is it gives you so much information and a lot of education as well surrounding everything. What’s really cool is when you wake up, it tells you based on how you slept because it measures your sleep cycles and your restfulness and your sleep efficiency and all these things. Based on how you slept, based on your resting heart rate during the night, which is what Kelly is referring to, based on your activity to the previous day, and some other factors, it gives you a readiness score, and it tells you like, “How ready are you to tackle the day?” It really makes it personal to you. So, it'll say like, “You're great. You're rested. Go hard today,” or it might say like your resting heart rate was raised last night, you didn't sleep, maybe you didn't sleep as well, maybe you should take it easy today. It makes it very, very specific.

I thought it was going to be a generic, maybe one of five options that it gives you. I mean, it literally gives you very, very specifics. Mine today said, I had a readiness score of 84. It said, your resting heart rate lowered late last night because it should lower or raise at certain times during the night. So, I guess the fact that it lowered late in the night wasn't as good because it says, “Your resting heart rate lowered late last night, but your overall readiness is still good. If you feel tired, how about taking a rest day, some light relaxing activity can help you get back on track.” Things that affect resting heart rate, what does she say that hers was, she said--

Gin Stephens: As low as 56 but it skyrockets to 64, which doesn't seem that high. That's pretty low.

Melanie Avalon: That's pretty low, I think. Mine is normally low 50s to mid-60s, like 65 is normally the highest that mine goes but I don't consider that skyrocketing at all. In their app, they say that the normal average is anywhere from 40 to 100. Slightly below your average is a good sign of readiness and exceptionally high or low resting heart rate indicates that an easier day maybe an order. It says, “An intense training day, a late-night workout, elevated body temperature, or a heavy meal just before bed can keep your resting heart rate elevated during the night.” Alcohol can also affect that, which Kelly is asking about. My thoughts on it, Kelly, are that, yes, alcohol affects resting heart rate, but I don't perceive yours as skyrocketing.

Gin Stephens: Right. 64 is still a really good number. Can I give an example from mine? I have not been drinking. I feel so much better, but I looked way back when I was doing my PREDICT study and wearing the CGM. I had a night where I drank a good deal of-- it was Dry Farm wine, and it was champagne. I wanted to see how it affected me through the PREDICT 3 study. I went back to that night on my bed, I have a Sleep Number bed and it measures things like heart rate variability, breath rate while you're sleeping. My heart rate skyrocketed to 81 while I was sleeping from alcohol. My heart rate variability went down. I do think mine skyrocketed, but alcohol 100% made my heart rate skyrocket and then I didn't get a restful sleep. That right there was such important data when I realized, when I got the Sleep Number bed and started tracking, that was when I realized, “Gosh, my body really has a different sleep when I drink alcohol.” Now I know that my body does not metabolize alcohol well. I'm a slow alcohol metabolizer. So, that makes more sense why that happens for me.

Yes, if you think that it's alcohol, yep. I mean, and you're seeing it from the data, you're drinking, it's up when you drink, but I wouldn't say 64 is skyrocketed either.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm just looking back through my data because I usually have half a glass up to a glass, probably a glass every night now. If I do that, I don't see appreciable effect on anything. But if I have a night where I did drink a lot, which I've had a few of those in the past month, I do see it majorly. I think the only time I woke up to a readiness score of like, 60, something was after that, I was like, “It knows.” It knows. It was really exciting to interview the CEO of Oura. The thing that I really liked about it the most was I was so hesitant to actually use Oura ring, because you know how I am. I'm going to overanalyze, there's going to be so much data, and I'm going to wake up and get my score, and it's going to ruin my day because I'm going to be like-- I'm going to judge everything by the score. We talked about this in the interview, they really don't want you to have that response. It never makes you feel you're failing, and it's very gentle in how it talks to you. It always makes me feel like, “Oh, this is the steps I can take to make--”

Gin Stephens: It's actionable.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. My favorite thing about it is, it determines your ideal bedtime, and it does it based on how you're sleeping and how you react based on different things. Guess what? If you're going to bed at 1:00 AM, it's not going to say, “Your ideal bedtime is 7:00 PM. It's not going to say that. Mine right now says my ideal bedtime is between-- it was saying between 1:00 and 2:00 AM. Now it's saying between 12:45 and 1:45. I think it's trying to nudge me earlier. It's never going to give you something you can't do. If it does think you need to be early, it's going to slowly get you there. It's not going to try to force early bird on late night owls. For Gin, it would like--

Gin Stephens: It's 9:00 PM, time to go to bed. Why are you still awake? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Well, what I asked him was because my sleep score, to determine your sleep, how well you're doing it sleep, it looks at your total sleep, your efficiency, your restfulness, your REM, your deep sleep, your latency, and your timing. Your timing is the one where that does involve circadian rhythms. You can only have a good timing score if the middle midpoint of your sleep is between midnight and 3:00 AM. I'll have nights where I actually get really, really good scores on everything, except timing. Which is just a zero because I go to bed at 2:00. I asked him, I was like, “Does that mean it's impossible for me to get a really, really incredible sleep score because the timing is off?” He said I can still though get like a crown and an optimal score, but I won't ever get like a 99 if I'm going to bed that late. I would love for you to get it Gin and see what it says about your sleep.

Gin Stephens: Well, Sheri, my co-host on the Life Lessons Podcast has one. She's had one for a while and she loves it.

Melanie Avalon: It's so great.

Gin Stephens: But I love my bed that that does that. I don't know if I would like-- The ring itself on my finger, I would like to try one, I guess.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. Yeah. Love to get you one.

Gin Stephens: If I had one, I would wear it. But just getting one, I just don't know. We'll see.

Melanie Avalon: So, that was a lot of information. Any other thoughts?

Gin Stephens: No. I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: I did take my heart rate while I was in the sauna because it doesn't measure your heart rate during the day, only while you're sleeping, unless you do-- it has this moment option where you can like take a restful moment and not move and check it. I did it while I was in the sauna and it got up to like 99 or something.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “I'm just laying here.”

Gin Stephens: One day, my sauna will be put together.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I was going to say-- did it arrive?

Gin Stephens: Oh, it's here. It's in the boxes.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, right, because you're redoing the garage first.

Gin Stephens: Hmm. Don't get me started.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, never mind. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: This is out of my control. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I will put out good vibes.

Gin Stephens: I'm a patient girl.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited for you to--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, me too.

Melanie Avalon: I hope it happens while it's cold.

Gin Stephens: Me too.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own question for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. Remember, you can submit questions for Episode 200 Ask Me Anything episode. You can follow us on Instagram and Gin, how is Instagram going?

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm doing it, here and there.

Melanie Avalon: Are you enjoying it?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, when I think about it. I just don't remember it. I have to remind myself.

Melanie Avalon: Now I'm looking at yours, I'm looking at your freezer from Daily Harvest.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, love the Daily Harvest.

Melanie Avalon: It's a lot of Daily Harvest.

Gin Stephens: Well, it is.

Melanie Avalon: Is that a mini freezer?

Gin Stephens: No, that's a regular freezer. It's actually a big freezer. It's a old KitchenAid side by side built-in freezer and fridge.

Melanie Avalon: We just ordered my mom a chest freezer and then she said she doesn’t want it, so we're returning it.

Gin Stephens: She doesn't want it?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, she said she wants one that she can open so she can reach in. I think she doesn't want to like reach down--

Gin Stephens: Oh, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: --into it.

Gin Stephens: But, yeah, this is just one side of my freezer. Not one side of the freezer, but one side of my built-in. It's really old. They redid the kitchen. I don't know when they did it, but the appliances they're nice, but they've been around since, I don't know, at some point in the early 2000 era. Just from looking at the backsplash, that's when they redid the kitchen. But I love my kitchen.

Melanie Avalon: Everybody is now going to go to your Instagram and look at.

Gin Stephens: And look at my freezer. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Good times. So, you can follow us, I'm @MelanieAvalon, Gin @GinStephens, I think that is all of the things.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I don't think so.

Melanie Avalon: Nothing?

Gin Stephens: Not a thing. Like I always have so much to say. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jan 03

Episode 194: ADF, Poor Fasted Sleep, Sugar Cravings, Reversing Prediabetes, HbA1c, Other People’s Expectations, Body Image Problems, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 194 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To ButcherBox.com/IFPODCAST And Get The Ultimate Keto Bundle!

INSIDE TRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At Melanieavalon.Com/Insidetracker! Go To MelanieAvalon.Com/GetInsideTracker And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To ButcherBox.com/IFPODCAST And Get The Ultimate Keto Bundle!

3:05 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

14:55 - Listener Q&A: Danielle - Sleep And IF

Check Out Shapa Scale And Use The Promo Code IFStories To Save $20

30:50 - INSIDE TRACKER:  Go To MelanieAvalon.Com/GetInsideTracker And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

33:10 - Listener Q&A: Allison - Sugar cravings once I open my window

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44:15 - Listener Q&A: Nelson Other people's Expectations

49:00 - BLUBLOX: Go To BluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

44:15 - Listener Q&A: Rebecca Blood Work/Glucose

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #70 - Kara Collier (Nutrisense)

Go To Melanieavalon.com/nutrisenseCGM And Use Coupon Code MelanieAvalon For 15% Off Select Packages

Thorne Research - Berberine-500

Dry Farm Wines: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To DryFarmWines.com/IFPodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

TRANSCRIPT


Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 194 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get 10 pounds of free sustainable meat. That's right, 10 pounds. We are huge fans of a company called ButcherBox. They make it easy to get high-quality, humanely raised meat that you can trust. What they do is they deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork, and wild-caught seafood, shipped directly to your door. By cutting out the middleman, which is the grocery store, and working directly with farmers. They are supporting huge changes in the future and sustainability of our health and the environment. The value is incredible.

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You can start off the year right with up to 10 pounds of free meat for a limited time, ButcherBox is offering new members their ultimate keto bundle. When you sign up today at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, you'll get one pork butt, two pounds of grass-fed, grass-finished beef, and three pounds of bone and chicken thighs all for free in your first box. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. I'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that what you put on your skin gets direct access to your bloodstream and in your body can do a lot of detrimental things? So, while you may be fasting clean, you may at the same time be infusing your body with endocrine disrupters, which can mess with your hormones, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight and even carcinogens. 

In Europe, they've banned thousands of these compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup, and the US has banned less than 10. In fact, most conventional lipstick for example is high in lead, and the half-life of lead in the body can be up to 30 years. That means every time you put on some lipstick, you might be putting some lead into your bones, which might not leave for three decades. This is a big deal. Thankfully, there's an easy all-encompassing answer.

There's a company called Beautycounter, and they were founded on a mission to make skincare and makeup products that are safe for your skin. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to not burden your body and support your skin health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order.

If you'd like to learn more about safe beauty and also get a ton of amazing discounts and free things from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. Not sure which Beautycounter products to try? I also just made a whole series of online quizzes to match you to your perfect product. Those are at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. So, here's to fasting clean inside and out. All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 194 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am doing great. How are you doing?

Melanie Avalon: Good. Last night, I had my much belated birthday dinner with my family.

Gin Stephens: How was that?

Melanie Avalon: It was good. It was very much like a Melanie Dinner.

Gin Stephens: What does that mean, a Melanie Dinner?

Melanie Avalon: I had for the appetizer kangaroo.

Gin Stephens: Oh my gosh, I don't even know where you get that. I do eat meat, so I don't know why a kangaroo? It made me sad.

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know.

Gin Stephens: I was like, “Aww.”

Melanie Avalon: It's a normal thing to eat in Australia.

Gin Stephens: I guess it is. It's silly to feel that way about like one meat over another meat if you're eating meat. I also think kangaroos might be mean.

Melanie Avalon: I think they are, and I think there's also like a kangaroo population issue in Australia.

Gin Stephens: Oh. I just know when we used to watch like America's Funniest Home Videos as a family. Did you ever watch that?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Whenever there was a kangaroo, I'm like, “Oop, he's going to kick somebody.”

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: If they were standing by the river, I'm like, “Oop, they're going to kick them in the river.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh, that's so funny. For people who are interested, it's a lean red meat.

Gin Stephens: Does it remind you of beef when you eat it?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's just a little bit gamier, so that was the appetizer. For the entree, I had rabbit.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Then, for the dessert, I didn't even ask them for this, but they brought me out a Happy Birthday plate and a fruit bowl with just berries. I was like, “This is the only thing I would eat for dessert.” The waiter was like, “I think after two hours, I realized that.”

Gin Stephens: [laughs] You didn't have any sides, you just had the kangaroo meat itself and the rabbit meat itself.

Melanie Avalon: And steamed spinach.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Then, for the wine, I brought Dry Farm Wines, but I don't like bringing my own wine because I know servers get really annoyed, having been a fine dining server myself for five years. If listeners are curious, for restaurants, how I deal with wine at restaurants, I bring Dry Farm Wines, but then I pick a restaurant that has a really good wine list, and I vet the menu when I get there. If there is an organic wine from Europe, I will drink that. I had an organic wine from Europe by the glass and then my dad always does this, halfway through, he just orders a bottle. Out of all the bottles, he picked an organic wine without even realizing it. It was wonderful. We had that.

Gin Stephens: See, I actually have taken special wine to restaurants before that have a corkage fee.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I don't mind if I want to have a certain one.

Melanie Avalon: If I do do it, I will basically add in my head another $100 to the bill and tip on that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you tip based on if they had ordered one. That makes sense. Yeah. I worked as a server, too. That's actually where Chad and I met. Did I ever tell you that? We were waiting tables--

Melanie Avalon: You waited tables together?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, at the same restaurant. That's where we met, back in 1990. It was the summer of 1990. He was 19, I was 20, and we were both waiting tables at a restaurant down by the river. We were babies. But yes, whenever you have a special deal, any kind of special deal, you want to tip on the amount that would have been if you didn't have a special deal.

Melanie Avalon: We can make this an entire server podcast.

Gin Stephens: I'm a generous tipper. Although I will say one of my pet peeves, it was whenever tips are automatically included. That bothers me. I have always would have tipped better, but it makes me annoyed.

Melanie Avalon: If they do that, then I just add to it.

Gin Stephens: I don't. If someone puts a gratuity on there automatically, I'm like, “Well, sad for you because that's all you're getting. I would have tipped you more.” That's just one of my pet peeves because I never add, even though you could, sometimes a certain party types, I never added. Sometimes I was regretful that I hadn't, but oftentimes it was worth it. Like usually it was.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, one of my favorite things now about, and I'm so grateful for this, but being financially stable from all of the-- like the podcasts and the books and all of that, is that I can afford to tip and it's my favorite thing to do.

Gin Stephens: Oh, me too.

Melanie Avalon: It brings me so much joy.

Gin Stephens: I'm the same way. I love to tip well. Again, like I said, someone automatically adding a gratuity is one of my pet peeves. I don't know why. I'm like, “I would have been more generous, but, oh, well, you chose that. Okay.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I guess because it's forced upon you.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I like to be generous because I want to be.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that makes sense.

Gin Stephens: That is a very Melanie meal.

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's the type of restaurants I look for.

Gin Stephens: I don't even know where you go to eat that food.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's called Canoe in Atlanta. I highly recommend it.

Gin Stephens: I've heard of that. I've heard of it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you have? All right, because we're both from-- [crosstalk]

Gin Stephens: Well, I lived in the Atlanta area. What part of Atlanta is it in?

Melanie Avalon: I should know this.

Gin Stephens: Is it like Buckhead?

Melanie Avalon: No, it's this little area. It's like an area that's not Buckhead. I don't know. There's another restaurant right by it that I've been to called Old Vinings Inn.

Gin Stephens: That sounds like Vinings.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's probably it. Yeah. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I would predict you're in Vinings.

Melanie Avalon: I think so. I believe that is correct.

Gin Stephens: That's great.

Melanie Avalon: Good times.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm glad you had a good dinner.

Melanie Avalon: I did. Of course, when the dinner first started, the waiter came over, and he was like, “I hear we're celebrating your birthday.” Then, my mom was like, “Yes, her--” and then she proclaimed my age to the entire restaurant. I was like, “Thanks, Mom. Thank you.”

Gin Stephens: Embrace it. Embrace the age.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, well, perhaps.

Gin Stephens: I'm telling you, it's going to keep getting higher. And then, you--

Melanie Avalon: Unless we invent time travel or-- I don't know. I'm interviewing Mr-- Like some crazy longevity a person. I think maybe he has some secrets.

Gin Stephens: All right. He's crazy, or his ideas are crazy? Or, he likes crazy longevity? I'm trying to determine which part is crazy.

Melanie Avalon: Crazy in like-- he's not crazy, but he invests in longevity technology. I think our conversation is going to be about like Avatars and that type of stuff.

Gin Stephens: So really out there, but like futuristic kind of stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Like the technological future of longevity, like what that actually looks like. So, I'm pretty excited.

Gin Stephens: Well, we do have robot vacuums now, so we're pretty much in the future.

Melanie Avalon: I dreamed about my robot vacuum last night. So, that's really funny that you said that.

Gin Stephens: I don't have one. Well, see, my house is weird. I have a sunken living room right in the middle. It's a two-story sunken living room, and you come in the foyer and you step down to it and you step up to the dining room or step up to the kitchen, and it might sound weird, but it's beautiful. My house was built in ‘79. I don't know where I would put a robotic vacuum because it can't go up these little stairs.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, we talked about that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Well, you could get the one that makes a map of your house and then you can map it so that it doesn't fall. And then, you could get two, one on the lower, one of the upper.

Gin Stephens: Well, I would need one for the master bedroom and the foyer. It's crazy the way the rooms go around. Yeah. I would need, let me see, one, two, three-- I would need five. Five robotic vacuums.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, maybe not.

Gin Stephens: You know what's funny? Chad loves to vacuum. I got one of those Dyson, it's the cordless that plugs in where there's little ones. I had all these credits for Best Buy because we bought a washer and dryer. If you put it on their credit card, you got all these credits. I'm like, “All right, I'll do that.” I was able to get this Dyson really expensive vacuum for very cheap. Chad will go grab it-- He had never once in the lifetime of knowing him gotten out our big vacuum and vacuumed the house. Every day or something, he'll go grab that little cordless vacuum and go around the house and vacuum stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Still?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs]

Gin Stephens: He did it this morning. I was actually trying to watch TV, and he's vacuuming. Look, I'm not even going to complain.

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny.

Gin Stephens: I'm just going to sit here and pause the TV and not worry about it. The man's vacuuming. I've got a robot vacuum, it's called Chad.

Melanie Avalon: That's great. You know what else Dyson makes? They make vacuums and then they expanded their products and made something very specific.

Gin Stephens: I know they have a hairdryer. What is it? Is that it?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, like a hairdryer. Apparently, they put a lot of research into the science of hairdryers to make this crazy hairdryer. I got it. It's incredible.

Gin Stephens: Okay, now see, I'm a little mad now because I had the option to choose that for something that I might want, and I did not choose that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's really wonderful.

Gin Stephens: I’ve got a good hairdryer, I don't need--

Melanie Avalon: I got the straightener, too. The straightener is okay. But the hairdryer, I'm like, “Everybody needs this hairdryer.”

Gin Stephens: How's it special?

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. It looks really strange.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's weird. It's like a doughnut kind of.

Melanie Avalon: I don't even know how it works. It has this circle. It looks very futuristic and the air comes through. I literally have no idea where the air is coming from, but it blows out of this hollow circle thing. It's light, easy to hold, and it just dries my hair really fast. Apparently, the science that they did is they make sure it never changes-- The temperature is very tightly controlled of the air, so it doesn't ever overheat your hair. I don't know. It's really amazing.

Gin Stephens: Now, I'm super sad that I didn't choose it.

Melanie Avalon: Next time. So, shall we jump into everything?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right. To start things off, we have a question from Danielle and the subject is “Sleep and IF,” because this is the Intermittent Fasting podcast if people didn't figure that out yet. Danielle says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. I have a question about ADF,” which is alternate-day fasting and sleep. I don't struggle with the hunger on ADF, but it has a massive impact on my sleep. Even after doing it for a few months, I never adjust and have very poor sleep on these nights. Usually, my sleep is really good.

My background. I'm currently 121 pounds with muscle as I lift weights two times a week and would prefer to be around 112 to 114 pounds. I am 5’4”, so this is around the lower end of a healthy BMI range. I usually have a three- to four-hour eating window each day and often longer on the weekends, eight hours. I eat everything, but mostly fish plus salad or vegetables, or chicken plus salad, or other meat plus salad, or pasta during the week. On weekends, I may go out for brunch and dinner. So, I have a varied diet, but mostly whole foods with minimal junk foods, although I never ever deny myself anything. I always eat to satiety.

I've never been overweight, and I've always weighed around 116 to 120 pounds since age 14. I'm currently 34 years old. I actually have technically time-restricted eating unconsciously since being a teenager because I never ate breakfast anyway. With this way of eating, I easily stay at 121 pounds without any effort. Actually, I am usually slightly lighter, but I gained two pounds since lifting weights at the start of this year, but my inches are smaller. I can't seem to lose and stay at a lower than my current weight. This is where my body likes to be. I tried ADF again recently for two months and lost inches but not much weight, maybe four pounds, but couldn't maintain the eating style because of the impact on sleep. I gained back the little loss that I had after stopping again.

Anything you suggest would be very helpful. I'm even happier being only five pounds less but can't even seem to do that easily. Thank you, and I love your show. I've listened every week since your first episode. You both carefully evaluate research and are critical of fats, which I really like. It's so lovely having an all-women show that is thoughtful and scientific, and you're both careful not to overstep your expertise in the area of health, which is refreshing. I also really enjoy that you each have different opinions with some things and don't need to agree with everything the other says, I think this demonstrates your modesty about your wealth of knowledge on the topic and willingness to adapt beliefs based on science. Danielle.”

Gin Stephens:  All right. Well, there's two things here, two directions that I'm going to go. First of all, I'm going to address the actual first part of the question, but then I'm going to talk about Danielle's struggle overall. First of all, let's talk about sleep with ADF. Danielle, I was the same way. I did not sleep on down days when I was doing ADF. Particularly, I was doing the full fast version of ADF. So, I would have a 36 to 42 hour fast, and then the next day would be an up day. So, I'd have at least two meals on the up days, that's how I recommend that you do it based on the research on ADF. I'm talking about the up day. There's two ways you can structure your down day.

One is the complete fast like I said, 36 to 42 hours. The alternate way you can structure your down day is with a 500-calorie down-day meal. For somebody struggling with sleep, I would recommend that you try that version, the 500-calorie down-day meal and choose something-- a lot of people have trouble stopping at 500 calories. But if you choose something strategically, something that is very satisfying, it will fill you up and you have it later in the day, closer to bedtime, you may find that you're able to sleep with the down day meal. That's just an option. It helps some people. Really, that is why I feel I won't do ADF. I was not a good sleeper on ADF, no matter, it wasn't a good sleep combination for me. I get it. If I needed to do ADF for any certain reasons if I felt I needed it metabolically or something like that, if I was stuck on a plateau and trying to lose more weight, I might would do it for a little while, but the sleep was the issue for me. A lot of people don't have that problem. They sleep great with ADF, whether they're doing the longer fasts or the down day version, but sleep is important and we're all different. So, I completely get the struggle and that was one I faced as well.

Now, let's talk about your weight. You're 5’4”. Now, I know we're all different and there's no formula that's perfect, and I know that. Your frame size can be important, you might have a really tiny dainty frame. I'm bearing that in mind. I once heard a formula that I kind of like as a rule of thumb and it was 100 pounds for your first five feet and then five pounds per inch after that. If we calculate your-- that is to find your “ideal weight,” because as I said, there are a lot of factors at play. But for 5’4”, using that formula, your “ideal weight” would be 120 pounds, and you're right there at 121. The difference between 120 and 121 is a good poop. That's within your maintenance range. I would consider 121 to be statistically the same as 120.

You also said something that was very important, several things. First of all, you said, “I can't seem to lose and stay at a lower weight than my current weight.” One thing I have found over my years of maintenance, my years of maintaining within the range where I am now, this is where my body likes to be, and that really is why I threw my scale away because when I started thinking about my ideal weight, using that formula that I just told you, that would put my ideal weight, I'm 5’5”, I should be 125 pounds at my ideal weight. I got it in my head that I needed to see that number. I didn't wait for a year and then I got on the scale, and I felt like I was at my ideal weight because I was wearing a size zero jeans from the Loft. I knew I didn't need to lose more weight or really want to lose more weight, so I had it in my brain that I would see 125 on the scale.

I got on the scale that day in 2017 and saw 130.2 or some nonsense like that and I was so mad because I wanted to see a different number. But then, I was mad that I was mad and that was the day I threw my scale away because I realized I was where my body wanted to be. I was maintaining within that range wearing the clothes that I felt great in. You have talked about that you have lost inches. When you started lifting weights, you gained two pounds, but your inches are down. This is just a great example of the fact that your body composition is better than it was. Your weight’s up, but your inches are down, that means fat loss and muscle gain. I think it's time for you to break up with the idea of needing to see a smaller number on the scale. Now, if you clearly look at yourself and see that you have excess fat that you can tell is a problem, yeah, that's another issue. I've said this before, maybe not on this podcast, I'm not sure, but I know I've said it on Intermittent Fasting Stories. Women are meant to be curvy and squishy. I'm at what I consider to be my ideal maintenance range weight. I've got squishy parts on me. I think that's how we're supposed to be, and we can get so caught up in feeling we have to be another way. You want to be in a weight range that you can comfortably maintain without having to do things that don't feel right to you. So, I just want you to think about that. Maybe you're exactly where you need to be.

Melanie Avalon: I love that. I feel like you threw away your scale when we had this show, right?

Gin Stephens: We did. Yeah, it was June of 2017 and we started the podcast in April of 2017. I haven't weighed myself since then, except till I got my Shapa scale that I love so much. I went gray on the Shapa of scale right before Thanksgiving because I'd been to the beach a couple times, I'd eaten a lot more, and I could feel it. Gray meant, slowly gaining a little weight. Then, I didn't do anything drastic or freak out, I just stayed on my normal routine. Then, I saw blue, which is losing weight. So, I gained a little weight, then I lost that weight, then Thanksgiving hit. I went to the green, and I've been on the green ever since. That's maintaining. I don't need to worry about the number. Sometimes, I'm curious what the number is, but I don't want to play those games with myself of like, “Man, if only I could just see 125,” because that number is meaningless.

Melanie Avalon: Do you know what does the vacation mode do on the Shapa scale?

Gin Stephens: Okay, the vacation mode, yeah, I do know what that is because you put it on vacation mode when you're not going to be home, or if you don't want to weigh and it doesn't count it against you with your weighing streak. Really, it's nothing, no, it's no big deal. It's just that Shapa will fuss at you for not weighing because you get off of your weighing streak. It wants you to weigh daily because that's really the whole premise of it is that it keeps track of your overall trend, so it needs the data. When I went to the beach and didn't have my scale because I'm not going to take my scale on vacation. I'm just not going to do that. I put it on vacation mode. Then, when I came back and got right back on it, I was off of vacation mode.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so it's not making any changes to how it interprets your--

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Because I was like, I don't understand how that would work, but that makes sense. I love what you said. I feel people who, which is a lot of us, get fixated on numbers, you can tell because the weight that you fixate on will be a very specific number, like 121.

Gin Stephens: She said she's always weighed between 116 and 120 since the age of 14, but she's still right there. She's still right there. She's like, “Oh, no, I'm 121.” That's fabulous, especially if you started weightlifting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. My question is because she really wants to lose five more pounds. Does that five pounds look any different on your body? Why?

Gin Stephens: That was why was that I mentioned the part about, do you see five extra pounds of fat on your body? Or, is it just you want to see that number on the scale? Because I can't imagine-- if she's been 116 to 120 since the age of 14, I can't imagine that she sees 5 extra pounds of fat at 121.

Melanie Avalon: I love everything that you said about the ADF. When people write into us about ADF, it is hard to know which version they're doing, because when I hear people doing ADF, I actually automatically assume they're doing the 500-calorie version. Do you assume they're doing--?

Gin Stephens: The full fast? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I can't sleep fasted. I just can't. I actually have a question for you, Gin, from me about ADF because I've thought about this before about how-- if I could do ADF, and actually do it, what would that look like? The only way I think I could do it and sleep would be if I did a 500-calorie meal, like you talked about and took a Benadryl.

Gin Stephens: Well, see, for me Benadryl keeps me awake because I'm the opposite. I have that ADHD brain, and Benadryl makes me wired.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Which is, of course, because we are the complete opposite in everything.

Gin Stephens: I'd be awake for the rest of my life. All those Tylenol PMs and Benadryl, that's the same ingredient. But, no, I cannot sleep on Benadryl. I wouldn't do it. If something is making you not be able to sleep and you're having to take something like that, I wouldn't do it.

Melanie Avalon: This is just something that I thought about because I am not really a fan of-- I guess Benadryl is technically a pharmaceutical. I'm a fan of not doing things like that if you can at all help it, but I have thought before I'm like, the cost benefits of doing ADF with Benadryl. This is just something I pondered.

Gin Stephens: I don't think you would like ADF because you wouldn't want the up day. I feel you wouldn't like the up day. You have to eat at least two meals, possibly three. I don't think you'd want to do that.

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: ADF is not for you, Melanie. It's not for me right now either. Like I said, I'm not ever going to say never. I won't say I will never do something again. But I feel I won't do ADF, and I'm not anti-ADF. I don't think it's bad, some people love it. They love it. It's what works best for their body. Some people are scared of it. I almost hate to say that I don't want to do it because then people are like, “Well, Gin doesn't like it, I'm not going to like it. I don't want to do it,” and then they dread it. But then, they start doing it and they love it. I don't want people to use my feelings about it. I'm not anti it, and I know people who love it. A lot of my moderators do it and love it.

Melanie Avalon: I wish I was one of those people, but I'm not.

Gin Stephens: Why? Why do you want to do it? Just to have a longer fast?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, mostly. If it works well for you, it seems like a really great lifestyle practice for those that works well for, so that's why .It's like for those people who do really thrive on a vegan diet, it's like I wish I was that person, but I'm just not.

Interestingly, really quick tangent, my sister was there with us last night and she is vegan. She said she had this huge realization that bread made her feel really awful. She was thinking it was the folic acid added, but I was like, but I don't know. I think it's probably the gluten. She said she had a huge epiphany pretty recently about just how much food makes her feel. I was like, “What do you eat?” She was telling me the foods that she eats in her vegan paradigm and they were actually-- so if I were to do paleo vegan, they were all that. It was like non-gluten-containing grains like rice, quinoa. It wasn't legumes. It was lentils, vegetables, fruits. I was like, “This is very paleo.” It was just really exciting and interesting-- It’s interesting because she's not really looked into paleo or doesn't really know any of the-- well, I don't know if she knows, but she doesn't hardcore focus on why certain foods may be inflammatory for certain people but to see her naturally gravitate to the foods in a vegan paradigm that I would consider to be the least inflammatory or a least problematic was, it was pretty cool.

Gin Stephens: She's listening to her body. It makes sense that the foods that worked for your body as far as like-- you gravitated to paleo foods, and she has too.

Melanie Avalon: What I was telling her was I wrote my book What When Wine-- well, it released in stores in 2018, but I wrote the first version in 2014. Despite everything that's happening, there's been so much research, so many findings since then, actually really all of it, I still pretty much feel the same with everything that I've seen since then about the potential inflammatory nature of the categories of foods and then same with the fasting. It's nice to see that, rather than being like, “Oh, I thought this was absolutely amazing.” And maybe it's not or-- yeah.

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I'm glad that she's figuring it out.

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Gin Stephens: Our next question is from Allison, and the subject is “Sugar cravings once I open my window.” Hi, Gin and Melanie, I love your podcast and have been IF for about three weeks. I did IF about a year ago, but slowly went back to my old habits. During my first try of IF, I did a 16:8 window, I now have a five to six-hour eating window. I've noticed that I don't have cravings during the fasted state, but once I start eating, all I want is sugar. I usually open my window with something healthy like avocado and tomato. Once I'm satiated from a hunger standpoint, a major sugar craving kicks in. Have you heard of this and do you have any suggestions?”

Melanie Avalon: All right. Allison, thank you for your question. I feel there are probably three potential things that could be going on here. One is, especially since you talked about you did IF but then you went back to old habits, it could literally be a habitual thing that you associate eating with sugar, with those types of foods. So, it could just be the habit brain kicking in. Also, similar to that, it could be we know when we eat sugar that it releases feel-good neurotransmitters, so it could be just wanting a drug basically. That can seem a little bit intense, but when they do studies in rats, for example, rats prefer sugar to cocaine, which is crazy. So, it could be that, it could be a comforting thing like eating sugar makes us feel-- it sends our bodies a safety signal because of the calorie nature of it.

The third thing that it could be which is actually very different is, if she was opening her window with protein and then craving sugar, a case for that is often because we can get a reactive hypoglycemia from protein, and the sugar helps balance that out. But she's opening it with avocado and tomato, and feels satiated, and then has the sugar craving. So, I don't think it's that case. It really sounds habitual.

One of the things that I have heard is that the way you can identify if it's a craving is if it is for a very specific food, and you just want that one food. Because when you're hungry, and it's not a craving, you can think of lot of probably like whole foods that would tastes really delicious. But if it's like, “Oh, I really want Skittles,” or, “I really want cereal,” or, I really want this one specific thing, then it's quite often a craving. As for the advice-- Well, first of all, Gin, what are your thoughts about the source of this?

Gin Stephens: Well, first of all, one thing I think that is important is that she's only been doing IF for three weeks. We do see people who are still in the adjustment phase have a tendency to have that, that drive to eat more during their eating window when they're first starting as their bodies are adjusting. It has to do-- you're not well fueled yet in the fasted state because your body is still becoming fat adapted. So, you open your window and then bam, now you're craving that that energy that your body is not quite getting yet. When people find that, that calms down after they become fat adapted and adjusted to fasting, so I don't know if that's part of what's happening for you, but it could be because the timing is right.

Also, I mean I still get sugar cravings every day, sometimes. Well, I mean, not every day, but I do like to have something sweet. I don't think of it as a negative. I think of it as, why does every human crave something sweet? Why have we decided that that's bad and wrong if we all do it? What I do, and I've discovered if you've been listening to the podcast for a while, that too much sugar gives me restless legs. So, I'm mindful of what I choose and what I eat. But I do not beat myself up for wanting something sweet. Maybe I have a couple of Medjool dates. That satisfies that craving for something sweet, closes my window beautifully. I've been having smoothies to close my window. Now, these are smoothies made with whole foods, really high-quality foods. I talked about before. I'm loving Daily Harvest smoothies. If you go to the favorite things tab of ginstephens.com, I have a link there, but they're really high-quality ingredients, it satisfies my need to have something sweet. They don't have any added sugar. They're sweetened with things like a banana or dates. They also have things in there to balance it out like chickpeas, which might sound weird, but it's delicious. It balances it out with some protein and it's after my meal.

Yesterday, I actually had some vanilla ice cream because we had some still in the freezer from the holidays. I just had a little bit, and it wasn't a problem. I want you to think about this. If you're like bingeing on low-quality sugar things like packs of cookies, then obviously that would not be a good long-term strategy. But if you were like, “I love cookies, and I have cookies, and I'm craving a cookie and I'm going to have one,” or choose something, if you don't think cookies serve your body well, then think of something that would and have that. Melanie loves pineapple, that would meet her sweet craving. Don't feel guilt from it just because maybe you think that that we're not supposed to have anything that tastes sweet. I don't agree with that idea.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's so interesting with fruit. Some people, that works really well. For me, it works really well but some people that makes them more hungry. Knowing what type of sweet, so between the more simple sugars found in fruit compared to the more complex sugars found in something-- well, if you made like-- I'm paleo finding it, but if you made like a cookie out of starches, although that have sugar in it, so I guess that would be all of them.

One thing you could try is opening, because she said, okay, she opens with avocado and tomato. I know I said that some people will eat protein and then they crave the sweet because they need it to help process the protein without having a reactive hypoglycemia response. One thing you could do is open with avocado and tomato and protein. Opening with protein because protein is extremely satiating, and you might find that opening with that and fat which would be avocado, you might have less with the craving. Yes, I like what you said about that.

Gin Stephens: We have so much guilt around the whole idea of wanting to eat something sweet. I do think that, like you mentioned before, we know about the rats and the-- I'm talking about just refined sugar they'll just go to it more than just cocaine. Some people do have the areas of their brain that light up and they consider themselves to be sugar addicts, and they need to not have sugar and I'm talking about sugar itself. But then, some people have taken it to the point where they're like, well, anything like fruit, anything sweet is bad, and no one should ever have any of that. I'm not going to say that there aren't people that need to avoid that, and I understand. If someone says to me, “I can't eat fruit. Fruit is bad for my body,” I believe you. But I don't think we need to be caught up in the paradigm that craving something sweet means I'm bad and weak.

Melanie Avalon: The only context I would add, and it's 100%, it's not a moral thing. It's not bad and weak. The only caution I would add is if you are following a super high-fat, super low-carb diet, and you have a craving for something sweet, this is just something I thought for a really long time, but I think it's best if you've just had a really high-fat meal, and you're craving something sweet, I don't think it's the best to combine super high-fat with sugar in that situation. I like to-- personally, I would like ride it out with something like stevia or something like that, and then bring in carbs in the more of the context of not a ketogenic diet. That's just something I felt for a long time.

Gin Stephens: That's someone who is purposefully being ketogenic.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because I think what happens a lot is, and I've said this before on the show, but I feel like a lot of times people will do ketogenic diets and it's not satiating, and it's not really working for them that well, but they're eating like a super, super high-fat version. Then, they get sugar cravings, and then they're like, “Oh, whatever, I'll just eat all the sugar.” In that context, I think that can create a very unhealthy or potentially damaging metabolic state, in that acute moment. I've always thought that it's like coming off the keto diet if you want to bring back carbs. I think doing some fast, so addressing the craving with something sweet that's not actually sugar, and then doing your you're fast, and then the next day approaching it with more carbs in a lower fat context.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I think it's distinguishing between sugar craving and the craving for something sweet, because for me, it's the craving to have a little something sweet. Back in the day when I was trying keto, I made keto cheesecake and that satisfied the craving for something sweet.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Which I'm assuming you probably made it with--

Gin Stephens: Whatever all that stuff was. All the artificial stuff that you were using back in the day with that. Anyway, but I always had that little taste for something sweet that I needed. I don't think of it as a negative or a weakness.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's why I personally-- like I was doing low carb for a long time. I did for a while see it as a weakness or something like you just said, but then I realized I was much happier doing intermittent fasting and then having all the sweet that I wanted in the form of fruit and satiating that at night in my eating window, and that worked really well for me. I switched to a lower fat context for it.

Gin Stephens: The smoothies, we're really enjoying them. Chad and I'll split one. It's just so funny because for a while, he was like, “Let's just have fourth of one and save it.” And I'm like, “We're not doing it,” because he's one of those naturally thin people that has appetite correction. He's like, “I only want a little bit.” I'm like, “Well, then just throw it away. I'm making a new one tomorrow. We're not going to have a quarter of a smoothie every day.” [laughs] It is so funny. He's the person that will leave like two green beans on his plate.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I can't do that.

Gin Stephens: Just eat the green beans, eat the green beans.

Melanie Avalon: Especially when I go to restaurants, it's completely cleared. I always look around and people-- a lot of people do, not finished everything, and I'm like--

Gin Stephens: I do stop eating, sometimes I'll be like, “I've had enough of this chicken, you want the rest of this piece of chicken?” I'll hand that to him, he might eat it, or I just won't finish it. But two green beans or a quarter of a smoothie, no.

Melanie Avalon: I've always finished everything my entire life.

Gin Stephens: Really? I don't always but I tend to if it's something I'm really enjoying.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, that's funny.

Melanie Avalon: Shall we go to the next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. This comes from Nelson. We don't have the subject, but Nelson says, “Hey, ladies, I love your show. To make a long story short, I discovered IF--" this is a really old question, but I came across it and I just was like, “Oh, I have to read this. This is crazy.” He says, “I discovered IF by a group of extras at a shoot for Manhunt for Netflix where Melanie's name was mentioned early spring 2019.” This just cracks me up because I used to do that all the time. Doing extra on shows for TV and Netflix and stuff like that. So, it's funny to me that people were talking about me in that situation.

Gin Stephens: That is funny. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. I could have been on that set. Well, 2019, I could have been. He says, “I lost over 100 pounds now. It's not only the lifestyle I love, what I love is that I made it fit me. Do you know what I mean? Nothing drastic, just delay, don't deny. So simple. Now for my question, I'll reach maintenance at 180. I'm 224 today, I was 330. My wife thinks I'm too skinny. My mom too. Everybody around me is over 275 pounds and now they're all wondering what I am doing. I gave them your books, but my wife wants me heavier. What do I do? By the way, I'm a 56-year-old father of eight boys, married for 26 years. Happy fasting. Thank you for all that you do.”

Gin Stephens: This is a great question, Nelson, thank you for sharing it. I'm going to share a personal story from my life when I first was approaching my goal in 2015. Keep in mind that I had been 210 pounds most recently, and I had been up in that 180 to 200 range up and down around and there for a few years prior to hitting 210 and realizing that I was obese. My husband had been used to seeing me heavy. So, then when I was getting close to my goal weight, my initial goal was 135 pounds, because that was 75 pounds down, that seemed like a number that if I ever could just hit that 75 pounds down, 135 seemed perfection.

Then, I got there and I'm like, “Alright, I met my goal.” But then, I realized I did still have some fat to lose, which is true, I did. I did go on to lose at least five more pounds around in there to hit around 80 going. But the point I'm making is, when I hit that 135, my husband said, “You're too skinny.” He had seen me way less than that early in our marriage when I was younger, and he never said I was too skinny then. But after seeing me at 210 and then around the 180s for a while, suddenly, it was a big change to see me at 135. He was like, “Yeah, you don't lose any more weight. Do not lose any more weight.” I ignored him, did whatever I wanted to do. And he doesn't think I'm too skinny, even though I am two sizes down from where I was at that day, that I hit my goal and when he said don't lose any more weight, I'm two sizes down from that day and he does not think I'm too skinny now.

People have to adjust to the new you. Choose a way where you can healthily maintain and feel good in your skin. Don't fixate on the number. Maybe it's 180, you're 224 today, maybe it's 190, maybe it's 175. You don't know. Just let your body decide what feels right to you and what's easy for you to maintain. When you get there, your family will adjust to your new size. Our bodies do not want to be too skinny. So, it's really unusual that anyone would lose below a weight that is healthy for your body. I wouldn't stress out about that. Let them adjust and they'll see. What do you think about that, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's great. I think maybe when it comes up something that you can focus on rather than debating the weight is shift the focus to talking about how you feel health-wise, like how you're feeling better and have that discussion, rather than trying to be defensive about the weight or the size.

Gin Stephens: Right. We hear this a lot, that people will say, “Well, now everyone around me tells me I've lost too much weight, I'm getting too skinny.” Whenever anybody asks that, I say, “Alright, what's your height? What's your weight?” They're always in a healthy BMI range when they're saying this. I've never once had anybody say a weight that puts them below a healthy BMI range. It's just that I really think it takes time for people to adjust to the new you.

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Gin Stephens: This is from Rebecca, and the subject is “Bloodwork/Glucose.” “I have been clean fasting since March 1 of 2020. And I'm amazed how fit I feel and how loose my clothes are. I thought I was doing well prior until I realized by putting stevia in my coffee, eating sugar-free breath mints, I was compromising my fast. I know now. Here's my question. I was watching my A1c levels climb since the majority of my dad's side of the family all have diabetes. All of them. I was watching my level climb, and a year ago, my A1c reached 5.7, which is pre-diabetic. Since I got on track, it is now 5.5 for five months, which I thought would even drop more when I started to clean fast in March. Shouldn't that have dropped more? Also, my glucose level went from 89 in January 2020 to 100, and I fasted 15 hours. Any suggestions as to why that went up? Thank you so much. Sincerely, Rebecca.” She said, “By the way, I have your book, Gin, and also pre-ordered your new book coming out this month. I also bought The Obesity Code.” So, that lets me know she sent this in in June. At the time that she wrote this, she was only three months into intermittent fasting. That's important.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Thank you so much, Rebecca. For listeners, who are not familiar, HbA1c is, so we have our blood sugar that we can monitor which is in your blood. Then we have our HbA1c which shows longer-term effects of elevated blood sugar levels on our red blood cells. The turnover rate is three months. So, we tend to see changes in HbA1c on a three-month timeline. I'm so excited because I finally released my first episode. Had I released it last time we recorded, Gin, with Nutrisense?

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure if it had been released yet.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited because I actually just released two days ago, finally, finally, finally, the episode because Gin and I have been talking about CGMs so much on this show recently, which are continuous glucose monitors, which give you a real-time picture of your blood sugar levels throughout the day. I interviewed Nutrisense. There's two different companies that I was trialing. There's Nutrisense and Levels. I'm interviewing both of them and bringing them both and releasing episodes with both of them, but I did release just now the episode with Nutrisense, which is making CGMs accessible to the general public. The reason I'm talking about this is, we dive so deep, Rebecca, if you listen to that episode, I think it will help you so much. We went really deep into HbA1c, blood sugar levels, higher fasting blood sugar levels while fasting, like she says that she's fasting 15 hours and now her blood sugar was up from 89 to 100.

I will say one of the biggest things I've learned from wearing a CGM, because I've been wearing one for about a month and a half now, is just how for a lot of people and for me how much your blood sugar can change throughout the day. So, like you could measure one moment, and it might be 89 and then you might wait five minutes and measure it and it might be 100. It can really change that much.

Gin Stephens: It really does.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, based on a lot of factors. Interesting thing about HbA1c, that's why it is a better marker because you are seeing the longer-term effect. That said, in the interview, the founder Nutrisense, her name is Kara Collier. She was actually talking about some of the potential issues with HbA1c, and there is some debate about factors affecting it and how reliable it is. But all of that said, it is possible-- and this is something that I asked Kara, because a lot of people doing fasting and/or low carb diets, actually find that they’d start having higher fasted blood sugar levels, usually around like 100, kind of what Rebecca is experiencing. The question I asked Kara this, I also asked at Levels, her name was Casey, I asked her as well. I am very curious about people who are doing fasting-- and we don't know if this is the case with Rebecca, but a lot of people who are doing fasting, doing low carb, and experiencing a slightly elevated fasted blood sugar, the flip side is they don't tend to be getting the huge spikes. When they're eating, they're not getting these crazy high blood sugar levels, but the fasted blood sugar, maybe at a higher baseline. I am personally really curious, and I don't know that we have the answer to this yet about the cost-benefit of all this and how it is affecting things like HbA1c and things like that.

The point of all this is, Rebecca, if this does continue to be a thing, especially since you really want to take charge of this, I would really, really recommend getting a CGM if that is a possibility for you. You can go to melanieavalon.com/nutrisensecgm, and the coupon code, MELANIEAVALON, will get you 15% off and they do have a two-week one. I don't think the code works for that. They have a two-week one and they have like three months and six months in different plans. Anybody who is trying to figure out their blood sugar levels, their HbA1c, they're fasting, the foods they're eating, how it's affecting them, the CGM might really, really help. Her question is any suggestions as to why it went up? It could be the fasting, it could be just when you tested it, when you took that blood sugar draw. It could be that maybe if you tested it at a slightly different time that it would have been in the 80s as well.

Gin Stephens: That was mind blowing to me from wearing the CGM. Then I was like, well, this is now a meaningless question because it just really could have been five minutes earlier, you could have had-- or 30 minutes earlier, it could have been completely different.

Melanie Avalon: It's really shocking, actually.

Gin Stephens: It really surprised me a lot how much it varied from minute to minute, even in the fasted state. You assume that when you're fasted, it is just steady there. But no, your body is constantly keeping it within this range. Your liver dumps some more glycogen, it just keeps going up and down within this range.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and that's something that's really good about doing like Nutrisense because you have an app with it and you can see, has like tables and charts. Even if it's changing, you can see where the general line is, and then it gives you scores. It does all the analyzing for you. It makes sense of the data to let you know if things are potentially a problem or not. The other thing really cool about Nutrisense is-- and you can opt-out if you don't want this, but they actually talk to you via email or via chat, I think, in the app, and give you advice and guidance and can interpret your results for you, which I was like, “Wow, this is pretty cool.” It's very, very tailored to helping you figure things out. If you really want to figure it out, that could definitely be something that could help you. I found for me that I wasn't like super happy with my fasted blood sugar levels, and I started supplementing with berberine that had a profound effect on my fasting blood sugar. I'll put a link in the show notes to the berberine that I'm taking. It's the Thorn brand. But yeah.

Gin Stephens: I also want to put out there. We don't know, this is really important, the A1c is a measure of your past two to three months of blood sugar. It gives you that average. It had been 5.7, it got to 5.5, and she said she thought it would drop even more when she started to clean fast in March. So, I don't know when her A1c was tested. She's only been doing clean fasting for three months, so I imagine that her A1c was tested at some point within that three months of the clean fast. That's really not much time. It takes people a lot longer to see positive changes in their A1c than just at first because our bodies, we have the adjustment period for intermittent fasting. Our bodies are doing a lot of changing, a lot of healing. So, it's not like it happens overnight. Like now, I'm fasting everything's fixed. Now, it might take a year for you to see, you see the trend over time, maybe get it tested every three months. And hopefully every three months, you'll see that trend getting better, but not at first, and she's still really right there in the beginning.

Melanie Avalon: She hasn't mentioned at all what she's eating. If what you're eating, you're massively spiking your blood sugar, and depending on how long it's taking for that blood sugar to come down, that could be a huge factor. I don't think people can always fast themselves out of foods that aren't working for us. So, hopefully, that was helpful.

A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/Episode194.

Oh, listeners, for Episode 200 we are going to do an Ask Me Anything Episode. So, if you have any questions, you can ask Gin and I anything about our personal lives or anything, our opinions on whatever. So, just send us those questions and put AMA in the title so we know that that's what it's for. You can get all of this stuff we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. I wanted to mention because I was talking about Dry Farm Wines in the beginning, you can get a bottle for a penny from Dry Farm Wines at dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast.

Gin Stephens: Ooh, can I tell you what I got Chad for Christmas?

Melanie Avalon: Dry Farm Wines?

Gin Stephens: I did.

Melanie Avalon: You did? Oh.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I've ordered him-- I'm not drinking wine right now, but he's drinking wine. He has literally gone through my Dry Farm Wines because that's all he wants to drink now. I was like, “I'm going to get him some Dry Farm Wines.”

Melanie Avalon: I'm doing that for my dad too.

Gin Stephens: I love it.

Melanie Avalon: Does he drink red?

Gin Stephens: Chad likes red. Yeah, he prefers red. I got him a box. Yeah, and you can get a gift box. I don't know if people know you can do that. You can send someone a gift box.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you can do like a one-off.

Gin Stephens: Yep. You don't have to send a subscription.

Melanie Avalon: I've been gifting myself because I'm going faster than my subscription.

Gin Stephens: When I was doing that, I was going faster than my subscription, I would just go in and change the next ship date.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I've done that, and I've done gift box.

Gin Stephens: But anyway, so I've got to try to figure out how to intercept the box before he sees it because he's home for the semester there. He's grading final exams. I'm just going to be standing at the curb waiting for it to deliver.

Melanie Avalon: “Don't look. [laughs] Don't look while I sign for this heavy box.”

Gin Stephens: When I see that it's out for delivery. I'll be like, “Please go do a lot of shopping for me at the grocery store.” Anyway, I just had to throw that in about Dry Farm Wines because we love it.

Melanie Avalon: Love them. If you'd like to get a bottle for a penny, you can go to dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, and you can follow us on Instagram, the place to be, with Gin and I. [laughs] I'm starting to have the time on my life there. I'm Melanie Avalon, Gin is Gin Stephens. No, friends, for reals, follow me. I'm doing a lot of giveaways. For the CGM episode, I'm giving away a CGM.

Gin Stephens: Woo, can I enter-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon:  Sure. If you win, I'll be like, “Nope.”

Gin Stephens: Okay, never mind.

Melanie Avalon: No, you can enter. Enter, and then when I do the drawing--

Gin Stephens: I cannot win. That's fine. Okay.

Melanie Avalon: I will die if it lands on you. That'd be so funny.

Gin Stephens: That would be funny.

Melanie Avalon: No, every episode that I release now if they have something that is giveawayable, I'm asking them if they'll give it away.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's a good idea.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so it's been CGM. So, that giveaway will probably be over, but there might be another one going on when this comes out in January. Happy 2021, Gin.

Gin Stephens: Awesome. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Happy January 4th to you.

Gin Stephens: We're recording this way in the past, but I think we're all ready for some 2021.

Melanie Avalon: I think so. Gin is GinStephens on Instagram. I think that is everything.

Gin Stephens: I think so too.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, anything else from you before we go?

Gin Stephens: Still no. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

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