Welcome to Episode 349 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
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SHOW NOTES
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The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #224 - Forrest Smith (Kineon Labs)
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Listener Q&A: Joelle - What are ways to gracefully decline social food events at work?
Listener Q&A Mia - How will a fast physiologically affect a physically or emotionally stressed person?
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #219 - Dr. Jennifer Guttman
Effects Of Fasting On The Physiological And Psychological Responses In Middle Aged Men
Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 349 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 349 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. And Vanessa, I realized I should be paying more attention to the actual air dates. This episode comes out on Christmas. Really? And isn't Christmas your due date? It is.
Vanessa Spina:
This episode's coming out on Christmas Day?
Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Wow.
Vanessa Spina:
Well, Merry Christmas.
Melanie Avalon:
Merry Christmas.
Vanessa Spina:
Merry Christmas to all the listeners.
Melanie Avalon:
And if everything happened according to plan, I hope you're having a nice time delivering your child.
Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. I'm probably at this point, I'm imagining I'm in the baby Bliss bubble. I like to call it, oh, the baby bliss Bubble.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow.
Vanessa Spina:
There's nothing, I've never experienced anything like it.
Melanie Avalon:
Like the baby bliss Bubble.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. The two, three days that we were in the hospital after Luca arrived, it was just like every moment was like pure bliss. Painful bliss, still physically painful, but you're just like in so much bliss. And a lot of it just comes from the fact, know for nine months and even before that, you're worrying, you're Anticipating, you're preparing, then you have this massive relief mixed with that everything is great and you have your baby. And mixed also with the joy, the joy of actually getting to meet your new baby, like your new child. So, yeah, it's going to be an extra joyful Christmas, I think, for us this year.
Melanie Avalon:
Wow, that's a lot to take in. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
That's really cool that it's coming out on Christmas Day.
Melanie Avalon:
I know. I love Christmas.
Vanessa Spina:
Me too.
Melanie Avalon:
It's such a magical. I think what I love about it, I love that it becomes even more magical. I think as you get older, I mean, it's different magic.
Vanessa Spina:
It is, yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
But it's still. Yes. So very magical.
Vanessa Spina:
I love everything about it. I think it's probably my favorite holiday for a while. I was like, is it Thanksgiving? Because it's like Christmas without the gifts, but the gifts. I don't like the forced commercialism of it, but I do like all the traditions. There's just so many at Christmas, and it's longer, and it's just, like, cozy, and it feels like the world kind of stops for a little bit.
Melanie Avalon:
I've been stressing because I realized where my Carol bike is, is where I normally put my Christmas tree. So what are we going to do? There's only so much space in this apartment. Yeah, we're going to have to deal with that first world problems. Can I talk very briefly about something that I'm very excited about?
Vanessa Spina:
Of course.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So we talk a lot on this show about the power of light and red light and near infrared light. And I had really felt like I had optimized those aspects of my life and that I use my red light and neuroinfral light therapy devices and love them. And the light just feels so. It just feels so amazing for my circadian rhythm, my mood, also my skin, my muscle, my inflammation. And I recently did, I haven't aired it, but I did an episode with a company called Kineon Move. They actually make a red light and laser. So it has lasers and LEDs, and it's a modular device that you can strap to your body and you can also take them out and they're like little devices. Actually, I'm using them right now and hold them on different areas of your body. That's a tangent. The point is, the thing I had not optimized was I do use a bright daylight device. Like, what's it called? A sad light is what they call them.
Vanessa Spina:
Me too. I have one also.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes. And I had it in my head. I was like, I feel like I like this because it's bright in the morning, but I feel like maybe it's not the optimal way to be using it. And I was a little bit suspicious that maybe it actually might not be the best for me as well. Maybe it's too much blue light. I was torn, so I had it on my to do list to look into this. And then so often happens in life, especially for me. I feel like this happens all the I'll have my list of things to get to at some point, and then it'll just come to me. So this fabulous human being, his name is Ken. So he has a company called Soul Shine.
Vanessa Spina:
Such a cute know.
Melanie Avalon:
I know it stands for Science of light. It's the Sol and then shine. And he reached out to me because the devices he makes are full spectrum light. And he talks all about on his website, blood photobiomodulation, because basically the idea is that our blood circulates constantly all throughout our bodies, and the only blood vessels exposed to the outside world are our eyes. And every. This is according to him. I need to fact check this, but according to him, every 2 hours, your entire blood circulation has traveled through your eyes. So by exposing your eyes to the correct type of light, you can actually have an effect on your blood and your body and your physiology. And he calls it. He thinks we're suffering from an epidemic of what he calls malumination, which I think is really cute.
Vanessa Spina:
I love that term. I've heard it before with a red light.
Melanie Avalon:
I love that. And he loves red light. He loves near infrared light. He thinks there's a massive gap in the light world and that we're not using full spectrum light as well. And I agree. And it's so true that barely anybody's talking about it. So the devices he makes are full spectrum. They have that brightness of a sateLlite, if you are familiar with those. But they don't have the problems of those because I've talked to this man now, he is a treasure. He's like in his seventy s, and he's doing the perfect company because talking to him, you just light up. He's just so wonderful. And he talks about how normal satellites have way too much blue light, and they actually don't have the full spectrum because they take out the UV light because of the concerns that we have surrounding UV, and then they don't have near infrared light in them. So his devices are full spectrum, they have near infrared light to counteract the otherwise potentially negative effects of the blue light. And they have a very. And I have to get the exact type, but they have a very small amount of one of the UV rays as well. But nothing that would. He said that there's no concerns about cancer or anything like that. I just really love these devices. And he talks about the importance of them for your circadian rhythm, for the effects it has on your blood, for your energy levels, for just so many things. So I've started using it. What's really great is the device can have, it has a full spectrum light mode that runs for 15 minutes, and then it has a near infrared mode that you can run for 15 minutes, or you can run perpetually in the newer devices, which hopefully will be out by the time this podcast airs. Yeah. So you do like one session in the morning of the full spectrum light, and then you can put it on near infrared to counteract the, if you have like an other lighting to kind of bring in that healthy near infrared light. And I'm really excited about this. I'm just excited because like I said, it was something that I've been meaning to look into, and then it just came to me and I'm like, oh, I've been doing it wrong with my satellite, but always something to learn.
Vanessa Spina:
That's awesome. Yeah, I feel like I've been learning so much about light in the last couple of years, and it's just been so exciting and mind blowing. I love that you just manifested that.
Melanie Avalon:
I think it's so important. And even yesterday I interviewed, his name is Dan Levitt. He was so great. Historically, he's been a documentary producer for National Geographic and BBC and all these things. But he had his first book out, and it's called what's gotten into you? I think I've talked about it before, but it's all about our atoms from the creation of the universe until now. And even just reading that, like the role of the elements and atoms and light, it literally is energy. And it's so important for so many things. And then especially if you go down like the plant photosynthesis route, all of that to say. So I cannot recommend enough these devices. I use it now every single day. So I do have a coupon code for listeners. You can actually go to their website. So he has two links for it, soulshine.org as well as scienceoflight.org. I'm just going to make one link. You can go to Melanie avalon.com Scienceoflight, and you can use the coupon code, Melanie Avalon to get 10% off of those devices. So I cannot recommend that enough. So again, that's melanieavalon.com Scienceoflight with the coupon code Melanie Avalon for 10% off. And he also has a floor light option and bulbs that you can use as well as that small modular device that I have on my desk. And I am now running it. I'm actually running the near infrared perpetually with my satellite to counteract the blue light from the satellite. And then I do do that full spectrum session in the morning as well. So, yes, I love light, and I know Vanessa loves light because she has her devices.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I love learning about the different wavelengths and the importance of natural light on our bodies and how the sun is, like, half, about 50% infrared, which is one of the reasons it feels so good to be in it. But it's so cute, because when we were at the beach with Luca, I was like, we go down to the beach for sunrise, or we still see the sunrise and sunset here at home. And in the morning when we wake up, I'm like, look, Luca, it's red light. It's red light in the morning. AnD I've been learning about how we get the UVa light in the morning and how important the UVa light is for triggering these hormonal cascades and these proteins in our eyes. There's basically so many hormones connected to circadian rhythm, which is why the light is so important. And we just spend so much time indoors. Now, that's one of the biggest things that you've mentioned. Malumination. I love that term. But I also like to think of it as we're red light deficient in this vitamin. It's a nutrient. Light is a nutrient. It's an energy, like you said. But it is so powerful, and we are so connected to it. And we have been throughout all of our history when we lived all day outside, and now we're 90% of the time indoors behind windows that block most of the beneficial, a lot of the beneficial wavelengths, like red light. It's fascinating to me that in Northern Europe, people have cultivated these traditions that we call, like, they do cold plunging in the winter, and they do sauna, like, in Finland and Finnish saunas. It's part of their culture. They don't think of them as biohacks, but they get so much less infrared in the winter that they do this cold plunging to get that infrared in their bodies, and they do the sauna to get the infrared from the sauna. And it's just fascinating how they sort of evolve those things that we've been embracing more and more. But they were just doing that especially because the more north you are, the less light you have. They have periods of the year where there's like an hour of sunlight a day. So it's like they had to evolve these different ways of getting the sun energy, getting that infrared, getting these different wavelengths, and now we can have our own suns inside our homes. That's amazing. In the winter.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Four quick comments. So many things. One, I'm looking at his website he actually calls it light. His tagline is light activated nutrition, which I love. And then, like I said, he does include trace UV light in the full spectrum device, which is definitely not in any of these other devices. I really feel like this is because, like I said, I adore red light, near infrared, and I light up so much of my life with it, I hadn't yet had a device that was able to bring in the actual outdoor light inside, which is what this device does. Like, there's not any other device doing this that I'm aware of. The last little piece. Oh, just. This is not about the full spectrum light. It's about the red and near infrared, especially after interviewing Forrest at Key Neon, which I think I have a code for them as well. It should be Melanie Avalon. I'm holding it right now because it's so small, and I can put it on my face in different areas. Interviewing him was the most mind blowing thing ever about the science of red light and near infrared and how it works in the body. Did you know, for example, that they've done studies where, okay, I don't want to get this wrong. If athletes have injuries, like a local injury on a leg or something like that, it affects their heart, the inflammatory cytokines in the heart, because they travel from the local area, which is crazy. And so by treating locally areas of injury or muscle tension or soreness with red light or near infrared, you have, like, a systemic effect on your whole body's inflammatory profile, which is so, so interesting. And I really noticed it because I've been having some more dental work. My mouth was really on the struggle bus, and I just had to hold this device to my mouth. And you instantly, I mean, I instantly feel a difference from it. It's kind of crazy how quick you can feel the effects.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. And I love the portable units because you're not plugged into the wall, you don't have to worry about the EMFs, and you can get pretty close. I've had so many experiences of things. I was like, maybe I'll just try the red light on this. I'm like, whoa. I had total pain relief in several different areas, like, things that even one was like an infection, and it went away from the red light. It was just crazy. And it's so amazing. I love the concept that you brought up about the heart, but also cell free mitochondria. So even if you're doing a session on your face or your leg or wherever you're doing it, you're also getting systemic benefits on your whole body, because you have cell free mitochondria and because, as you were saying, your blood is moving through your body. So no matter where you're doing it in a targeted area, you're still getting those amazing systemic effects. So I think that's just so cool.
Melanie Avalon:
It's amazing. And I've been carrying so his ones that are modular. So like I said, it's these three little devices they do for a second pair via Bluetooth, but then the Bluetooth stops. So they're not constantly emitting Bluetooth, but you can strap them to your knee or you can take them out of the strap. And I've been carrying it in my purse. And so now when I'm just out and about, I can hold it to certain areas of my body. You can literally put it right up against your skin. Yes. I'm all about the red light in the near infrared and the full spectrum. So. Sorry. That was a lot about light.
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I love talking about it. So I'm sure our listeners will find it illuminating.
Melanie Avalon:
Look at you. Enlightening.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes.
Melanie Avalon:
So great. And what is the link for your devices?
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, that's sweet of you. I have my own line of red light therapy panels, which are all at Ketogenic Girl, and they're called the tone luxe line of red light therapy panels. And I customized the wavelengths in them based on the research that I found where there was the most beneficial effects. And they're very powerful devices. So I created something that I wanted to use that was like, the most powerful and the lowest EMFs. They're really amazing, but thanks for asking.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, of course. So we will put links to all those things in the show notes. All right. Shall we jump into questions?
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I would love to. So the first one comes from Joelle on Facebook, and she asks, what are ways to gracefully decline social food events at work, depending on the person? I don't always like to mention fasting, and I'Ve been looking forward to your answer on this one.
Melanie Avalon:
So something I thought would be fun for this was I have not opened my book. What? When wine and eons. I have a chapter on this.
Vanessa Spina:
No way.
Melanie Avalon:
Of course you did. I do. It's the social guide chapter.
Vanessa Spina:
The Etiquette of Fasting.
Melanie Avalon:
I love it. So I was going to in real time, because I don't even remember what I wrote in that. I was going to see what's in here and see if I still agree with what I said. I mean, I'm not going to read, like, the whole chapter. It's like story time.
Vanessa Spina:
A live reading.
Melanie Avalon:
A live reading. Oh, my gosh. So for friends, you can get the full book in hard copy or Kindle or audible, but here is an excerpt from Social guide. I will read the first sentence or sentences I say. You'd think the hardest thing about paleo or intermittent fasting would be the whole not eating certain things things, or just the straight up not eating thing. As it turns out, those things are kind of a breeze. Once you begin eating nourishing whole foods and are falling into the groove of fasting, your hunger levels, hormones, and circadian rhythms sink accordingly. Appetite vanishes in the presence of newfound energy, and the whole eating thing shifts from an obsessive gluttony for food to a pleasurable behavior that nourishes life's activities. So just what is the hardest part about these dietary changes? Other people, or allow me to rephrase. Dealing with your reactions to other people's reactions. Oh, good. I stand by. I stand. Good job, Melanie.
Vanessa Spina:
I stand by that.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Because that really is, for me, what it comes down to. Because we make it about the other people. When it's not the other people, it's literally your reactions, and it's not even the other people, it's their reactions to you. So that's just a lot of reactions to reactions that I think we don't even need to be engaging in. There's a lot more information there, but I basically say that something to consider is to identify the reason. So think about why people are reacting the way they are reacting. She's not really talking about having negative reactions from people. She's just talking about gracefully declining. But I think it goes back to this because it goes back to worrying about what people are going to think or say or how they're going to perceive your fasting choices. I talk about how there's, like a range of reasons that people feel the way they do. It can be sincere, so it can be about them caring about your well being, all the way to just pure selfishness. Like, it's actually about their personal insecurities, and they're projecting that onto you. And then I go through different ways to engage. So if people have health concerns, how to engage with them. If people have appearance concerns about you, like losing weight, how to engage with that. If people have more social concerns. I would experience this a lot with my mom, for example. Some people, this is just so far removed from the problem. Some people will be upset about you not engaging in a certain eating behavior because of how they think. It won't even affect them, but how it will affect other people, which is just like so many far levels of being removed. Like my mom used to do this. She would say that she was worried I was going to offend my relatives, for example, if I wasn't eating like the Christmas gathering or something. So the tips that I have one, you can just say no nicely and concisely. This actually goes back to Joelle's question. She's just not going to the events, I'm assuming that are food related. And I want to provide another option, which is Joelle, you can actually still go and just not eat. You don't have to necessarily limit yourself in engaging with other people because of your fasting window. I personally, depending on what it is, will still go. I just do me. And the way I do that is with these different tricks. So for example, saying no nicely and concisely, I say, when you're offered food in your fasting window, you can politely decline with minimal explanation. And I talk about how you may be tempted to carefully spill out a prepared science of fasting lecture, complete with studies and footnotes. But instead it's probably better to use short, sweet phrases like I'm good, thanks because you are good. Or I'm not hungry, thanks because you aren't hungry, or I'll get some in a little bit, which is true. Or I already ate, thanks, I love that one. Because that is true, you did already eat. It was just a while ago. And then I talk about avoiding attention, so you don't need to necessarily draw attention to your eating patterns. So many people, we're so worried about what other people are thinking, when a lot of people are just thinking about what other people are thinking and themselves. So I wouldn't stress so much about, again, what people are thinking. So you don't need to make it like a whole show, you don't have to make it a whole thing. You can just not eat and that can be fine. And then when people do kind of press you a little bit more, I say that it's nice to have a go to explanation. So it could be personal reasoning. So my sample sentence is I do if because it gives me energy, kills my appetite and lets me eat all I want, all while losing weight. Or you can provide a timeline for legitimacy. So you could say, like I've been doing if for a month. Or a short sentence about the science of fat burning. You could say, when fasting the body releases stored body fat for energy supporting metabolism and activity. You could have a short sentence about health benefits you could say studies show that fasting may increase longevity, boost immune function, and prevent many diseases. Or you can say something even more sciency. Sounding like fasting promotes autophagy, which is the recycling of old, broken down proteins in the body. It upregulates neurotransmitters and catecholamines in the body, which creates an alert energetic state. I talk about how it's important to prioritize your health, especially because people can think that fasting is dangerous. So it can be really helpful to emphasize the health benefits of it. You can influence the you. AnD this doesn't really apply because with Joelle it's probably a pre set up event. But if you can weigh in on the plans, put in your vote for things that will align with your eating window or things where it's not even eating involved. So I give alternatives to breakfast, brunch, and lunch. So things like tea or coffee or hiking or beach or the pool or yoga or shopping or manicures or like dinner. Alternatives? Movies, the theater, comedy clubs, bowling, game nights. Escape rooms. Escape rooms. Nice. I didn't know I knew what those were back then. I talk about the role of not becoming defensive. So how becoming argumentative or defensive pretty much will just make things worse. I talk about staying positive, that it's hard to doubt people. If you're genuine and you're literally just glowing with energy and saying that this makes me feel great, I think it's really helpful to speak in the first person. So when you're talking about if with other people, you can focus on how it makes you feel rather than how it can make them feel. So rather than saying it can make you run on fat, you might want to say it makes my body run great on fat. So you want to make it all about how it's working for you. So then people don't feel like you're imposing your lifestyle onto them or insinuating that they need to change. We talk about finding a diet buddy. So if you have a friend that that can help with sticking to your if journey and dealing with these social events. I talk about emphasizing your love of food because people often believe, or may believe that fasting is either disordered or that you're not eating for other reasons. So I like to emphasize how fasting lets me eat all I want because I love eating. I also personally point out that I never fast more than a day because I adore my nightly feast and I can't sleep on an empty stomach. And then I say that sticking it out so the longer you do it and more consistent you are, the sustainability of that will speak for itself. And then the way I end it. So the way I end the chapteR, I say, do you? So I say, appreciating, helping and loving other people does not equate sacrificing your well being for other people. How can we be truly happy if we place our own value only in the opinions of others? Confidence must come from within. Your life is your life, and you are entitled to follow the dietary approach that best suits your health and happiness. You got to do you. So all of that to say, Joelle, as far as gracefully declining. So the first thing I would say is, you actually don't have to decline. You can still go and you can practice all of those tips and tricks and reframing how everything is really just a reaction to other people's reactions, which is far removed from just doing what you want to do and being loving and not stressing about that. If you do want to decline, and she says, depending on the person, she doesn't like to mention fasting, you don't have to give a reason. Oh, okay. Wow. Now I'm going to go on a ever. Okay, this is like light bulb moment. You don't ever have to give a reason for saying no. And actually, this week, and this is going to be way in the past by the time this comes out. But the episode that's airing right now on my show is Dr. Jennifer Gutman. She wrote a book called Beyond Happiness, and it's all about simple, implementable things you can do to, I mean, create a more happy state of being. Although, wait, let me. The caveat to that is it's not about happiness. So happiness isn't the end goal. That's why it's called beyond happiness, basically a life of satisfaction. She actually says that you should actively not give excuses when you decline something or say no. And the reason is you have the right to do whatever you want to do. And if you give excuses every single time, people will be accustomed to that. And so then what happens when you actually don't want to do something just because you don't want to? Like, you don't actually have a reason, then you might feel the need to justify. Whereas if you just get used to saying, sorry, I can't, then you create expectations. And again, not that it's about being driven by other people's reactions, but then you don't create a state of expectations where people are always looking for a reason from you. Of course you can give a reason if you want, but it's just really nice and freeing. And I actually really recommend that book because she goes into a lot. She has, like, a whole chapter and section on this, on how to say no and just let that be enough. So that's actually how I would start with Joelle. I would say, you actually don't have to give any reason. If you do want to give a reason, you don't have to make it related to fasting. You can just say you have a prior commitment, which is true. You have a prior commitment with yourself. So, yes. What are your thoughts? Oh, wait. Last thing. I did talk about this extensively. We had a guest episode with Barry Conrad, who is a fabulous human being, and he's an actor in Australia. He practices intermittent fasting, and it's working. I mean, you can see it was a really nice interview because a lot of our shows are female centric. We don't have as many questions from men, and we do have questions from men, but not as many as the women. And so it was really nice hearing his perspective on intermittent fasting as a man and everything that he's gone through. And he talked about his history with having disordered eating experiences. We talked all about this, about declining social food events if needed. So I highly recommend that. So I'll put a link to that episode in the show notes. I think that was episode 332. That was a lot. Vanessa, do you have thoughts?
Vanessa Spina:
I think it was absolutely perfect. I love everything that you shared. I think it was extremely helpful. And I think a lot of people would benefit from having those kinds of references to rely on when they're in those situations and they're feeling uncomfortable. I know that people have different degrees of comfort with being, I guess, public about how they're living their lives. And I personally really agree with what your Guest says, which is don't give any excuses, because a lot of times, like you said, people are coming from their self perception, and any comments they make really mostly have to do with them. And that goes for pretty much everything in life. But when it comes to your choices, you have no onus. There's no onus on you to explain yourself, justify your choices to anyone other than yourself, and maybe, like, your spouse, depending on your situation. But it's only you. That's what matters. So whatever you decide to do is up to you. So whenever I'm in those situations, I usually just go with distraction, because I find if you give excuses, it pulls people in more, and then they start asking you more stuff and focusing more on you and if you're already feeling self conscious about it, it can make the situation really uncomfortable where you're just like, I need to exit. Whereas if you just kind of, I would say not ignore it, but you just kind of say like, oh, yeah, I'm just not eating right now. By the way, what is that new book that you were telling me about? And you just turn it back to them, then they'll focus back on themselves. And instead of drawing them in to a longer discussion or having to elaborate more when it really doesn't matter, at the end of the day, it's like what you're choosing to do is up to you. And if you don't want to talk about it, you have the right to not talk about it. So I totally agree with what that guy says. I never give excuses. I just move on to the next. And it's all about how big of a deal you make it as well. And people will sense that from you. If it's not a big deal to you, then they'll just drop it and go on to the next thing. But that's my very basic piece of advice, whereas yours was very elaborate, provided a lot of great tools. So thanks for sharing all of those.
Melanie Avalon:
No, thank you. I'm so happy we're on the same page about that. I just think it's so just in life, I think it's so important because, and I think people think it's selfish in some way to not give a reason and just say no. I think people think, oh, that's you just caring about yourself. The way I see it is you don't need to justify anything you do. Like you said, Vanessa, except for, you know, why you're doing it for yourself. And, I mean, I can completely see how if there's somebody you really care about and you feel like they're not understanding why you're doing what you're doing and you want them to understand that. I can totally see explaining to that person why, but I think that's different from feeling, like, to decline something or say no, that it's not okay if you don't provide an excuse, and I just don't subscribe to that. And on the flip side, if somebody says no to me, I don't expect an excuse or an explanation. I want everybody to do what they want to do. And people also, I think it's a healthier atmosphere between people when people really want to be there or really want to be doing that thing. Yes. And of course, some things you just have to do or sometimes you have to say no, and it's something that you actually should do. And so maybe you feel the need to provide. I think there are exceptions to any rule. And I will say the more you go, because again, Joelle is feeling like she needs to decline. The more times you do go to social food events and don't eat, the easier it will get. You'll get the skills, kind of like Vanessa was saying, you'll learn how to engage with people to draw the least amount of attention, and you'll realize, like we both said, that people are probably not paying as much attention as you think they are. And if they are, it's probably something about them which you're not going to be able to address anyways.
Vanessa Spina:
Those are some of my favorite quotes. I saw one the other day. This is something I wish everyone in the world could know is like, no one is really paying that much attention to you. Everyone is really paying attention to themselves and how you're perceiving them. And I wish I could remember the exact quote, but it was like the beginning of freedom is when you realize no one is really thinking about you that much to the extent that we think that they are. And it's so hard to get out of that kind of thinking when you kind of feel like people are really focusing on you and what you're wearing and what you're doing. But it's like, no, I always try to tell Pete this. They're thinking about how you're perceiving what they're wearing and what they're doing. That's how we're all kind of going through life. And I just wish everyone knew that they would feel so much more free.
Melanie Avalon:
It's so true. And like I just said, if they are really focusing on you, it's quite likely something about them, not you. So, yes, empowering people to say no one no at a time and not worry about what people think about you.
Vanessa Spina:
It's a great question, though. I've gotten it so many times over the years. I know that a lot of people deal with that. And like you said at the beginning, it's harder, but after a while, you get really good at navigating those situations. But they can be a big obstacle for a lot of people. Social situations, family situations, work situations, it's a big part of life. And some environments, people just let you do whatever, and others, not so much. So I get it.
Melanie Avalon:
And I will say to that point about the other parts of life, I literally feel a burden was lifted when I made a conscious decision especially with work emails to not feel the need to provide excuses every time. It's so nice to know that you can actually just say no and not provide an explanation.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, and hard to do when you are used to wanting people's approval or caring about that. It's really hard to do. But, yeah, it's very freeing.
Melanie Avalon:
You realize all the energy that went in every single time you were saying no or needed to reschedule the energy that went into creating the excuse and writing it out. And how will this land and is it all okay, that's just all gone when you realize, oh, I can just actually just say no. Yes. And be nice. But that's where emojis come in. Exactly. All the emojis, less words, more emojis, will solve all the world's problemS. Totally.
Vanessa Spina:
I'm with you on that.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my goodness. All right. Shall we go on to our next question?
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I would love to.
Melanie Avalon:
So this question is from MIA, also from Facebook. She says, what are the pros and cons of fasting when the individual is in chronic stress before the fast? How will a fast physiologically affect a physically or emotionally stressed person?
Vanessa Spina:
I love this question. And I think that there is a belief out there that in general that fasting, I'm assuming you're talking about extended water fasting. So beyond 12 hours, like maybe 24 hours and beyond and really not consuming anything other than maybe water.
Melanie Avalon:
I don't know that she actually, because just from all of the conversations I've had on this show over the years, people are concerned about any sort of intermittent fasting and being in a, quote, chronic stress state.
Vanessa Spina:
Okay, so it could also be intermittent fasting.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I think so.
Vanessa Spina:
Thank you for clarifying that. It really helps. So I think that there is this notion out there, a very well accepted notion by a lot of people, that fasting is a stressor. Like, you hear that term all the time. I'm assuming that's maybe why you're even asking this question, because you've heard that. And the truth is that the research actually is not fully black and white on this, which is really interesting. And it can really depend on the person. And so there's actually evidence on both sides of this. There's a really interesting study that just came out this past August. So, like, quite fresh research. And it was called the Effects Of Fasting On The Physiological And Psychological Responses In Middle Aged Men. So it's not done on women, but it was done on men. And they wanted to track both the mental well being and the physiology in these study, participants who were doing eight days of water only fasting, and they were aged 35 to 60, and they were divided into two groups and they measured their physiological parameters. Psychological data was collected, and they also were measuring a number of different variables. SO their results actually confirmed mostly beneficial things. And I know we're talking about extended water fasting and not necessarily intermittent fasting, but I just wanted to share this one.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, we are talking about both.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's brand new.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, you're saying this study. Oh, sorry. Okay, sorry. My bad.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, this study is about water only fasting. But I think that some of the information in it is interesting and relevant to this. So the results that they had, they confirmed reductions in body weight, reductions in blood pressure, lower diastolic blood pressure and glucose levels, increase in resting heart rate, increases in cortisol and beta hydroxybutyrate because they were in ketosis. No significant psychological changes were observed under the influence of the fasting. And there were some negative correlations, like between the cortisol levels and some of the psychological factors. But it's really interesting because some of the things that came up were they had incredible mental clarity, a lot of the benefits that people talk about when they're doing extended fasting. And so I think some of it does come down to the perception of fasting, whether it's intermittent fasting or extended fasting. And that is, if you perceive it to be stressful. I think it will definitely be stressful, but some people actually experience quite a bit of the opposite. They experience elevated mood. They experience, like I was saying, mental clarity and cognition, improved energy, and a lot of other physiological benefits, as well as positive mental changes. So there is research, like I was saying, on both sides of this, and I think what is really interesting is that people always expect it to be a negative thing. But there are situations where doing intermittent fasting or extended fasting actually really supports a lot of positive changes. So I wouldn't necessarily say it's a black and white answer. In general, I think that if you have been under a lot of stress and you perceive fasting to be stressful in any form, then it's probably not a good idea. If you are someone who especially is new to it and you also perceive it to be a stressful experience, then it won't be a good idea. But I think if you are someone who perceives it to be a beneficial thing, when you fast, you feel better, you feel less stress, then I think that it could be potentially beneficial. So I think it also really depends on the person. It's not just like I was saying, a black and white, like, yes, it's stressful. No, it's not. It depends on the situation. In this study, they found that they didn't really have much changes on the mental well being. So they didn't really have much negative changes, and they didn't really have a ton of super positive changes. It was just kind of more neutral. But again, the study was just done on men. It's just one example. There's a lot of benefits to fasting, and I think that, again, it really comes down to perception. But from your question, it sounds like you have been under a lot of stress recently, and it also sounds like you perceive fasting to be stressful. And so I would think that that's probably going to be a stressful experience for you. And it's hard to say how it will affect different people because some people find it very energizing and empowering and other people don't. But it's definitely something you want to start slowly, build up to it. Don't just jump in the deep end with an eight day water fast or something like that. If it's something that you're new to. One of the things that people initially do when they come to intermittent fasting is they just delay their first meal. If they're used to having it at seven, maybe they delay it by an hour to eight, delay it another couple of hours to nine and see how they feel. But it's not necessarily something that is going to add stress to you. A lot of stress that we have in life is actually hermetic stress. There's like different types of stress. There's you stress, which is positive stress. There's hormesis, which a lot of biohacks provide. A stress that actually ends up with positive benefits. Like exercising your muscles is a stressor on the body, but it makes people feel great to do exercise. So if people go work out or go for a walk outside, it definitely elevates mood, makes them feel better, makes them feel more energized, and it has a lot of cascades of beneficial effects on the body. So I would say some stressors, depending on the state that the person is in, can be beneficial or they can be not so beneficial. And it really, I think, comes down to consulting with your care provider, someone that your physician, to get advice on what you should do. Maybe the time is not right now. If you've just been through a lot of stress, maybe there'll be a time when you feel like it's more of maybe a challenge that you're up for that you are excited to do. But if you've just been through a really stressful period, then it may not be the best thing at that time. So I'd love to know your thoughts.
Melanie Avalon:
Melanie. Okay. I am so excited because I was literally going to say essentially the same thing. So it was really exciting to hear you provide that answer. And thank you for bringing in that study. That was really great. We'll put a link to that in the show notes, and the show notes will be@ifPodcast.com. Episode 349 and I do know recently, I think we did an episode where we talked a lot about cortisol during fasting and the stress response. And I think that would be a good episode to listen to because we talked about the different effects on the stress response in people who are fasting, which can speak to the potential effects that fasting might add to that. But I was going to say that as well about how so much of it, I think, does come down to perception, because I do think putting stressor upon stressor can be a problem for people. Burnout is a real thing. Overabundance of stress is such an issue, and a lot of that does come down to the perception of the stress. It kind of reminds me of Kelly McGonagall's book, the Upside of Stress, which is one of my favorite books. And she talks about how much perception can change the actual physiological response of stress in our bodies. Like, the entire book is about that. And so I think this is essentially what Vanessa said. But if you are in a state of stress, especially chronic stress, physical or emotional? Well, for some, on just a pure physical level, for some people, fasting really, like, they really do well with fasting, and they go into ketosis and they're burning fat and it's anti inflammatory, and their hunger goes away, and it feels really great. Other people haven't quite clicked into fasting with their body, and so they more likely go into a high sympathetic, even glucose creating state where the fasting is just creating more of a stress response and not quite doing exactly what they want it to be doing. And then from the perspective side of things, I really do think, I strongly think that how you view the fasting will affect whether or not it adds stress or not. For some people, fasting is what really actually alleviates their stress in the abundance of stress otherwise in their life. For some people, the fasting is something that brings consistency and lets them not stress about what they're eating, and they do function well in the fasted state, and then they're eating nourishing foods during their eating window. So for some people, it might really, really help them. Like, for me, I think if I was in a really chronically stressed life situation, I think the worst thing I could do would be to stop. Like, I think that would just make it honestly worse for me, and that's just me, and I think we're all different. So, like Vanessa was saying, I think it's important to know where you are and how you respond to fasting and what your perspective is on it. And definitely when you are doing the fasting, definitely focus on in your eating window, getting the nourishing foods to support your body. So making sure you're getting enough protein, whole foods, not imbibing in the toxic, processed foods that we have today, those are not going to help our bodies physically, emotionally, spiritually. I'm really excited that you talked about the role of perspective because I think that's actually really huge. And I think people so often don't even talk about that at all. I feel like the go to answer for this is often yes. If you're too stressed, you probably shouldn't be fasting. That's a very common answer. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
And many of us actually use it as a tool to be less stressed, which is what is. So, I think, key. And I think a lot of listeners probably feel that way. And then there are some listeners who probably feel like the opposite. But I love the point that you brought up, which is also one that I wanted to make, is that when it comes down to stacking stressors, it is so important to come from a well nourished place. I think that's the key. If you're doing intermittent fasting, as you said, make sure that every day you are eating a nutrient dense diet. As nutrient dense as you can make it. Make sure that you are getting all the calories that you need, all the protein that you need. Just don't skimp out on that at all, because that is definitely a stressor. If the body is not well nourished, then doing anything, stacking anything on top of that, whether it's fasting, intermittent fasting, exercise, cold plunging, anything, can just exacerbate that. So if you're well nourished, you're going to nourish yourself either every day or depending on what kind of fasting pattern you're looking at or interested in. I think that's probably the best. Most important message is to do it from a well, nourished place so it won't be so much of a stressor. And I've had a couple of guests talk about this where they were know that they only do it was one guest, Robert Sykes, a ketogenic bodybuilder. I think he just won like this week, he just won his latest bodybuilding show that he was working towards for years. And he did it all, ketogenic, which is amazing. But he was saying that he does consider fasting to be a stressor, but he still does it, but only when he's in a really well nourished place, that he's not overly stressed in other ways when it comes especially to nutrition and nourishment and sleep and all those other aspects of having a feeling good and really taking care of yourself.
Melanie Avalon:
All the things. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get these show notes with links to everything that we talked about and a full transcript@ifpodcast.com. Episode 349 and you can follow us on Instagram. We are if podcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. And I think that is all the things. So anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?
Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun. Love the questions, as always. And wishing everyone a beautiful season, holiday season.
Melanie Avalon:
Because we're in the future. I know. Merry Christmas. Happy holidays, everybody.
Vanessa Spina:
Bye bye.
Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team administration by Sharon Merriman. Editing by podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
Melanie Avalon:
See you next week.
STUFF WE LIKE
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Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
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