Welcome to Episode 348 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
Butcherbox: Grass-fed beef, organic chicken, heritage pork, wild-caught seafood, nutrient-rich, raised sustainably the way nature intended, and shipped straight to your door! For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get 3 lbs of free-range, organic chicken wings for free in every order for a year, plus $20 off your first box!
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SHOW NOTES
Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!
BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get 3 lbs of free-range, organic chicken wings for free in every order for a year, plus $20 off your first box!
Listener Q&A: Alani - I’ve been intermittent fasting for 4 1/2 years now....
Listener Q&A: Debbie - What is your CAROL Bike experience so far?
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #214 - Ulrich Dempfle (CAROL AI Bike)
Get $100 off with code MELANIEAVALON At carolbike.com!
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #223 - Tony Horton
Listener Q&A: Marina - Pros & Cons of Extended Fasting & Protein Sparing Modified Fasting. Which is better for weight loss?
Listener Q&A: Tara - Fat fasting versus protein sparing modified fasting versus regular fasting. Which is better - especially out of the first two?
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #220 - Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
PROTEIN SERIES: Optimize Yourself with Protein: Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 348 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 348 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.
Vanessa Spina:
Hello, everyone.
Melanie Avalon:
How are you today, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
I am doing well. How are you?
Melanie Avalon:
I am good. I feel like I want to tell you updates, but they're going to be, we're recording so far in advance that by the time this comes out, they're going to be not relevant. But can I tell you about my Taylor Swift Eris tour concert experience?
Vanessa Spina:
I was just going to ask how it was.
Melanie Avalon:
My goodness, it was an experience. I've never been to a movie in a theater where people are not in their seats.
Vanessa Spina:
I've never been to a concert in a movie theater. I've heard that they've become like, actually people going to the opera and stuff in the theater, so. But seeing Taylor Swift concert in the theater would be crazy.
Melanie Avalon:
It was so magical. It was funny. Afterwards, my sister was like, I thought it was going to be a documentary. And I was like, no, it's just the concert again.
Vanessa Spina:
I thought it was a documentary, too.
Melanie Avalon:
No, it's just the concert. Like just round two.
Vanessa Spina:
Well, that's nice because, yeah, for people who didn't get to go, like me, you can see the concert, or who.
Melanie Avalon:
Went and want to go again, like.
Vanessa Spina:
Me, relive it now. You can watch it infinite amount of times.
Melanie Avalon:
It was so great. And the crowd that we went to, because she's doing it only on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday for three weeks to make it like a concert experience. Our crowd. We went to a little bit of an earlier showing, at least for me, a 06:00 and it was all teeny boppers. Like everybody was like age ten to probably 1415 maybe. They looked fabulous. They were all dressed up, they were all with their moms, who were all drunk on wine, which was also fabulous. And then it was like me and my sister, when it started, everybody was sitting down and I was talking to my sister. I was like, people better start dancing. And then four little teeny bopper girls went in the aisles and they were dancing a little bit nervous because nobody else was standing up. But then they got joined by more and eventually there was like ten of them. And then they moved to the front of the movie theater screen and then like ten other girls from our row went in the sides. And I kept telling my sister, so this is like in the first, probably 20 minutes or so, I was like, I'm going to join them. I'm going to join them. Yeah, you are. I kept being like, when I get enough wine in me, I'm going to join them. And my sister was like, when the music calls and I was like, will you come with me? She was like, no. I was like, okay. And then at one point, half of the girls came and sat down again because it was a slow song. And I turned to the little girl beside me and she was like, twelve. And I was like, are you guys going to go back? And she was like, probably. And I was like, okay, well, I'm going with you next time. And she was like, okay. So then the next time they went back, I was like, this is my chance. And I went with them and I was awkwardly in the aisles and then I heard somebody behind me and I turned and it was my sister and she joined me. We just stayed there the whole time. And it was so immersive and so magical, and I highly recommend it to everybody. She's like changing the movie theater experience.
Vanessa Spina:
Wow, another thing, she's changing and leveling up. I was in the shower today and I was like, I think it's because I had her songs on, obviously, but I was like, I still can't believe she made over a billion dollars on that tour. That's just epic, just unbelievable. And she brought so much joy to so many people while doing it and also brought so much prosperity to so many people who were involved, from the truckers to everyone, Soundtech, everyone who was involved in the whole thing. Just what an incredible manifestation that she put out into the world. Just amazing.
Melanie Avalon:
No, it's so true. It's a huge boom, actually, to the economy. Actually, my sister and I were actually talking about that during the show because we were watching it, and we were like, why do people hate her? And my sister was like, it's literally just because they're jealous because she hasn't done anything to anybody. There's, like, nothing you can say, like, that's awful that she's done. Everything has just been wonderful. So it was really lovely. And there was this beautiful moment of humanity, because when we were in the aisles, there was a little girl, like, hiding behind us. She was probably, like, a younger sister of one of the teeny boppers. And she was really shy and not dancing and looked really awkward. And we tried to get her to dance with us, and I think we just scared her even more. But then at one point, the girls from the front, they came and they got her. They were like, come with us. And they brought her to the front. And then by the end, she was dancing, too. We were like, this is so beautiful. It's like humanity looking out for each other.
Vanessa Spina:
That's so adorable. I'm so glad you had an amazing time.
Melanie Avalon:
I did. And I posted for friends on Instagram my epic outfit, which I'm going to reprise for Halloween because I need to wear it again.
Vanessa Spina:
I was going to say, have you picked out your HallOween costume?
Melanie Avalon:
Well, I was going to be Sleeping Beauty, but now I'm going to be this one again, the Taylor Swift, because this outfit must be worn again since it took, like, 15 hours to make.
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, the one that you did. All the sequins that you were. Yes. Okay. Building the oxytocin.
Melanie Avalon:
So many sequins were engaged with. With this outfit.
Vanessa Spina:
That's amazing.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. I can't wait to see what it looks made. Do you have an Amazon storefront?
Vanessa Spina:
No. Oh, yes. It's not that active. I mean, it's got my cookbook, my main book in it. I think that's about all.
Melanie Avalon:
I did not. So I just created one. I should make one for what you just said, like, for my book, the first thing I made was I made a Taylor Swift costume era shopping list. So if people want to make the costume, they can get all the supplies. So I made that at Melanie. Avalon.com Slash Avalon. And by the time this comes out, I will have updated it, hopefully for other things. And by the time this comes out, Vanessa. Oh, my God. So much will have happened. Last episode will be the first episode with Dave on this show.
Vanessa Spina:
Nice.
Melanie Avalon:
Which means that will have already happened. Isn't that crazy?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. We're in the future.
Melanie Avalon:
We are in the future right now. Except not.
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, my gosh.
Melanie Avalon:
How are you? How are things with you?
Vanessa Spina:
Good. Yeah. I found our Halloween costumes.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, what are you doing?
Vanessa Spina:
I was going through so many different things, and I was spending way too much time on it. That time that I just don't have right now, because as we talked about, I'm nesting. Nesting mode and just organizing everything, getting everything ready for baby. It's like eight weekends. It's really not that long. So then I was like, what would, like, what would Luca be the most excited to wear? And then I'll build it around that. And I was like, fireman. He would love that. He would love to be a fireman because he's obsessed with rescue vehicles, service vehicles. He waves at every ambulance, fire truck. He just gets so it's a typical boy thing, but he gets so excited about. So if he had, like, a little fireman's hat and A fireman's outfit and a fire extinguisher and that kind of thing, he would be so excited. And then if his dad was matching him and his mom, he calls us Dita and Mima. His dita and Mima are matching him. So I got Pete a firefighter outfit, which I think I'm going to like too. Also enjoy just looking at him in it. And then I got one for myself, which is like an outfit that doesn't exist in real life.
Melanie Avalon:
Right?
Vanessa Spina:
It's like a woman's fireman dress. It's basically like the fireman outfit but made into a dress. A cute dress. It's not like.
Melanie Avalon:
I get what you're saying.
Vanessa Spina:
I wouldn't say it's like Koi. It's not like that.
Melanie Avalon:
Wait, it's not like a sexy fireman?
Vanessa Spina:
No. Well, yeah, kind of, but I wouldn't say it's, like, modest. I'm pregnant, so I'm like, the pregnant firefighter. But I was also debating between this cute cheerleading dress with pompoms, and I was like, I could be, like, a pregnant cheerleader, but I was like, is that, like, is that controversial or funny? I don't know. So I'm going to try both on, and I'll let Pete decide.
Melanie Avalon:
I want to see pictures, all of.
Vanessa Spina:
Us being dressed up as firemen, fire people, firewomen. Whatever will be, will be cute. It'll just be so cute to see him in it. And I was just so happy when we decided, because I was like, I know he's going to be into this. I know he's going to want to actually wear it. Unlike the lion, he was know we had to kind of chase him around to put it on him.
Melanie Avalon:
He was not a lion fan.
Vanessa Spina:
It's just like, he was like, only one, and he was just like, I don't want to wear this hat. It's just constricting. Like, he doesn't understand costumes yet. So. Yeah, I just feel really good that I have them all picked out and I ordered them. They're coming this week, so we're going to try them on. And assuming all goes well, we have a Halloween party with a bunch of our friends and their kids. So it'll be really cute to see all the kids dressed up and everyone dressed up. So, yeah, I'm excited for it.
Melanie Avalon:
Do they trick or treat there? I think I asked you that before.
Vanessa Spina:
So they do, but, like, in the expat Neighborhoods. So some of my friends are going to this expat neighborhood.
Melanie Avalon:
Wait, what is expat?
Vanessa Spina:
Expat is, like, short for expatriates. So it's Americans, Canadians, like, Westerners who are here. And there are certain neighborhoods where there's lots of expats. Typically there's one here specifically where there's a lot of Americans. Like, if you walk around that neighborhood, all you hear is English. It's like in the city. Right? So they're doing, organizing a big trick or treating thing so you can go there and volunteer and hand candy out and. Yeah, we're not going to it because I don't want to celebrate all the candy and everything, but we'll do the Halloween party. It's a tough holiday for me, weirdly, because when I was a kid, I loved it so much, but all that sugar and candy really affected me in my life, so I also have a lot of mixed feelings about it. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
It's funny because growing up, it was a little bit controversial because I was raised super Bible belt Christian south, and so it was seen as a little bit satanic. I mean, we still like pagan. I mean, we still trick or treated and all the things, but it wasn't. Yeah, it was not the crowd favorite holiday. Yeah. Now I'm really not about all that candy. So that said, I just love Halloween. I love everything about. I love the costumes, I love the decorations. Starting now through the end of the year is my favorite seasons. I'm so excited. We're, like, in the good times now.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. I've been having yesterday and today. I was thinking about you today because I was like, I bet Melanie doesn't have this, but I'm having almost like a summer. End of summer, like grief. Why is summer?
Melanie Avalon:
I thought you were going to say that. Yeah, I have no idea what that is.
Vanessa Spina:
I'm like, we were just at the beach, and then we got back and it was sunny for last week, and then now it's just cold. So it's a big shift. I had to pull our winter jackets out today. I'm not ready. I'm just not ready for it. And every year it gets harder. And Pete and I sat on the. We were sitting on the couch on Saturday and we, like, Pinky promised that this is like the last winter that we're doing. Because we were like, I don't know, the darkness. I just miss being outside. All I was tonight, I was like, I think I just have to dress warmer and just make an effort. And we can still be outside a lot of the day, but I miss being outside. I really do. But we kind of distract ourselves with all those holidays. But I guess for you, you don't have the end of summer grieving.
Melanie Avalon:
No. I literally have been dreaming about the upcoming time change. When it gets dark at like five, I'm like, please come now. I just love it. I love it.
Vanessa Spina:
Darkness and the cold.
Melanie Avalon:
It's so great. It's wonderful.
Vanessa Spina:
But do you ever feel like my problem with it is that I didn't.
Melanie Avalon:
Even know what you were going to say.
Vanessa Spina:
Well, I've grown to compensate with other things, like red light therapy and sauna when I'm not pregnant. I love that stuff. Cold therapy, even in the winter. I do it mostly in the winter. I've embraced all those things. I think that the seasons changing really has its charms. I think fall has its charms. Christmas has its. Winter has its charms. Especially if you go skiing, which I love. But there's Christmas markets. There's all the holidays you're talking about. So it's not that I don't like them. I do enjoy it, but I don't like being inside all the time. That's the hard part for me. That doesn't bother you?
Melanie Avalon:
It doesn't change? No, that does not bother me. It does not change at all. My amount of hours spent in the outdoors. There is no difference.
Vanessa Spina:
Does that mean you spend a lot of time outside?
Melanie Avalon:
No. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
Because in the summer, like, where you live, it's hot outside, right?
Melanie Avalon:
So I'm definitely not outside. So I'm probably outside more. Yeah, I'm probably outside more in the cold.
Vanessa Spina:
That's so funny and ironic. I like, the cold. I like it. I don't like when it's, like, dark and cold. It just feels sad and, like, gloomy.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, it feels dark and romantic.
Vanessa Spina:
Okay, I have to reframe. Reframe it to romantic.
Melanie Avalon:
It's like the best lighting.
Vanessa Spina:
AnD good lighting it is.
Melanie Avalon:
It's such good lighting.
Vanessa Spina:
I think. I was thinking of reflecting on this a lot today. I think part of it is because now we have a two year old, I think it makes me long for the summer even more because you're outside with them all day doing stuff. So in the winter, it just becomes more challenging because you're like, I want to go to the playground, but it's freezing and we have to put on all these layers, and I don't want to do it. Whereas when it's warm out, at least it's easy to do. So. I think having a kid does change it.
Melanie Avalon:
Another reason for me not to have a child.
Vanessa Spina:
I don't think I mind it as much before.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, but the lighting, actually, one of the things, if I am ever going on dates and stuff, I'm like, I love that when the time change happens, because then I can go on slightly earlier dates because the lighting will be more favorable earlier.
Vanessa Spina:
Okay, what do you mean by this lighting? Like, are you talking about selfie lighting? Are you talking about just lighting in general?
Melanie Avalon:
Talking about? Yes. Like, the harsh overhead lighting of the day just is not as flattering to me as the evening lighting.
Vanessa Spina:
I get that. Like, in photos.
Melanie Avalon:
Especially. Or like, if you're inside in a restaurant or a bar with windows, you can get weird side angle lighting that's just not flattering. But when it's dark outside, then you've only got the lighting of the restaurant, which is generally, usually more flattering, especially if you're going to a nice place. But those windows, man, that side lighting, then you have to worry about where you're sitting. I just can't. It's too much.
Vanessa Spina:
I don't think I've ever thought. But I love that you have thought about it. Oh, have I? Now I'm going to be thinking about it more.
Melanie Avalon:
That's why you got to get there early, before your date, so that you can scope out the seat that will have the best lighting. And it's important that your first moment being seen is from far away.
Vanessa Spina:
Really?
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. There's a lot that goes into this.
Vanessa Spina:
I would think that when Pete and met, it was from far away the first time, not super far. Like, we were at a reception and he walked in with his friend. And he made some comment about how he thought I was really attractive. Maybe we were like, 20ft away.
Melanie Avalon:
I don't know.
Vanessa Spina:
Does that qualify? Oh, yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
No, that's perfect. That's perfect. Yes. There's nothing better when you're first meeting a potential romantic person than having that far off first look. It's everything.
Vanessa Spina:
That's so funny. Yeah. I'm thinking about my other serious relationship before Pete. I saw him far away. We saw each other from far away at a club.
Melanie Avalon:
See? It's everything.
Vanessa Spina:
But I didn't see. Petey saw me. And then he came up close.
Melanie Avalon:
Wait, you didn't see. Wait, wait.
Vanessa Spina:
What?
Melanie Avalon:
You didn't see Pete?
Vanessa Spina:
And then he walked in and saw me. And then him and his friend came up and introduced themselves to me. So I only saw him the first time up close.
Melanie Avalon:
Well, that does put a wrench in my theory. But we need more data points. I love it. Well, on that note, now that listeners have learned so much about how to perfectly organize their first.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
Good tips. I know these are important tips. We should write a book.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. About lighting.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes.
Vanessa Spina:
About tips for life.
Melanie Avalon:
Shall we go into some questions? Okay, so we have a kind of all over the place interesting question here from Elena, and this is from Facebook. And she says, I've been intermittent fasting for four and a half years now. I like it as a lifestyle, to lose a few pounds around the middle and to stay healthy. I am 48 years old, female, and on HRT estradiol patch and 200 milligrams progesterone pill. At night. I'm 55 and I weigh 135 pounds. I'm an omnivore, and I eat lots of protein and I'm low on the carbs. I eat everything organic and grass fed. I mix up my fasting and eating window. I can fast easily to 19 hours, but after that, I get major tension in my shoulder that goes up to my neck and up to my head. It gets unbearable. And then I need to eat. Once I eat, that, tension goes away. I've tried electrolytes in my water throughout the day as I'm fasting and eating more protein the night before. I take your awesome magnesium eight in the daytime for headaches usually, and that works, but not in this particular situation. I'm following everything you and Jen and Cynthia and Vanessa have said on your awesome podcasts. I've listened to all of your episodes. Is this stress on my body that's telling me to eat? I'm not hungry at all at this time. What is going on with my body. I also, at this time, feel very energetic but in a negative way, like jittery. I've tested my glucose and it's in the high seventy s and low 80s. I've heard about fasting energy, but I can't do anything with this energy because I can't focus. Do I just not like being in ketosis for an experiment? I've made myself wait till 23 or 24 hours and then I've eaten two hard boiled eggs and one cup of bone broth, then gone to sleep and made it to 41 hours. And she said, last week I tried eating just protein steak, two hard boiled eggs and chicken, went to bed and then made it to 48 hours. But I can't get rid of that weird tension that happens after 19 hours. What is going on with my body? Thank you ahead of time for your help.
Vanessa Spina:
I have some thoughts. I would say I'm a big fan of really paying attention to feedback from your body and being really in tune with how you feel when you're doing things. And the tension in the neck, which sounds very painful. It doesn't sound like good feedback or positive feedback from your body with this approach. The other thing that's really standing out for me is you sound like you are at a great, healthy weight. So I'm not sure what the goal is with doing Omad. Like, if you are 48, it sounds like you're doing, as you said, HRT. Then it's hard to say without knowing explicitly what your goals are. But I'm imagining that you want to have a great body composition because you're doing HRT, you're eating lots of protein, and you're really focusing on informing yourself on all the ways that this is beneficial for your body composition. So I'm not sure why you're fasting. I'm not sure why you're doing Omad. And it does sound potentially like too much stress. It sounds like you're at a great weight after the age of 40. Usually we really depend on other signals outside from the hormonal ones to make sure that we can have amazing body composition, build more muscle, maintain the muscle that we have, and also have strong bones. And because you're on HRT, that's going to give you a bit of a boost. But your body is really going to be dependent on the protein feedings and on resistance training. So I'm not sure if you are doing that or not. I didn't see that in your question, but I don't see what would be bad potentially about doing two meals a day, waking up in the morning, having a prioritized protein breakfast, seeing how you feel throughout the day, if you want to have a small protein meal or a light lunch in between that or not, and having dinner. I'm not sure what the motivation is for doing the Omad, especially when you're getting this kind of feedback. It sounds like pain, like considerable pain and tension in your neck, and also this jittery feeling. So to me, that's all feedback, saying that this pattern may not be optimal for you. And so I would definitely look into adjusting it. Trying to do a different approach with your meal timing and spacing, and sounds like you, like I said, are at a healthy weight. Maybe you're just wanting to optimize your body composition, stay as strong or get as strong as possible. And so what would be more optimal for that, in my opinion, would be to have at least two protein meals a day, whether that's breakfast and dinner or lunch and dinner. And that's just my initial thoughts on it. What about you, Melanie?
Melanie Avalon:
I thought those were really great thoughts. I was actually thinking that similarly, especially in the beginning when she was talking about, and again, of course, we don't know her actual body composition, but based on her weight and, you know, in a normal BMI, and I like what you said about focusing on the protein and the body composition and how she doesn't have to be doing the one meal a day thing. My thoughts on the feeling that she gets in her neck and shoulder. Okay, first of all, I will preface this by saying, I have no idea. These are just my random thoughts. I have two thoughts of what it might be. One, some people do report when they fast, that when they get farther into a fast, although I feel like this happens more with longer fasts, but that areas where they have damage or I don't know what the correct word would be. Areas, problematic areas, especially muscle related, that those will start flaring up when they get into a fast because of the body going into a sort of repair mode. I don't know if that's what that is. I've just heard that people have experienced that. What it feels like, maybe even more. It sounds like your body's going into, since you feel very energetic, not hungry, but it's like a negative jittery energy. It sounds like you're going into the sympathetic dominant state. So basically a high cortisol response to the fasting I was expecting. When you said that you tested your glucose, I actually thought it was going to be high because that would also be indicative of going into that state, and it's not. It's in the low eighty s. I would actually be really curious if you were a laney to wear a CGM, how those blood sugar levels compare to the rest of the day. I'd be really curious about that. But it does really sound like an increase in the sympathetic nervous system, and that definitely can lead to muscle tension and muscle spasms. And the fact that you eat and it goes away feels like it's shifting you back into the parasympathetic mode and mitigating that. So that would be my thought. It sounds like what you're doing, the fasting approach you're doing right now probably is not, like Vanessa was saying, might not be the best fasting approach suited to so. And like Vanessa also said, I don't think you need to feel this dire, need to have to do this longer fast. I really don't, especially even the terminology she uses. So she went 23 or 24 hours, had two hard boiled eggs and a cup of brown broth, went to sleep, and then made it to 41 hours.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I definitely get that as well from the terminology and just the tone that there's maybe a thought that you need to fast for as long as possible. And I do think that there's a place for extended fasting, but it would be without any food at all. That's like water fasting. Extended water fasting done for the purpose of deep autophagy, immune reset, cellular renewal, mitophagy, et cetera. But, yeah, I wouldn't push it. There's really nothing wrong with changing up your approach, especially if you're feeling uncomfortable. And I just think it's great that you're listening to the feedback from your body, you're observing it, but it sounds like it's not the most suited, the best suited for you. So I wish I knew more about what your goals were with it, because then I feel like I could give you better feedback on what to do. But I'm just going to assume that you want to have great body composition if you listen to the three of our podcasts and you've been upping your protein and all of that. So, yeah, let us know. I would love to know how it goes if you decide to change it up and see if you get even better results.
Melanie Avalon:
And also, one final thought, something you could also try. If, for whatever reason, you do want to do these one meal a day approaches, you could try having more carbs and protein and seeing what happens and see if that has an effect. It might be that the fasting plus the low carb is just too much stress and you need more carbs. So that would be something to experiment with as well.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
Shall we go on to our next question?
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, the next question is from Debbie and comes to us on Facebook. What is your Carol bike experience so far?
Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So I haven't updated about this in a while, but I am still loving my Carol bike. I actually did have an interview with the founder on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking podcast, so I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But basically, it continues to be just the best way to easily integrate physical activity into my daily life and get the maximum benefit when it comes to cardiovascular benefits in particular, like cholesterol mitigating benefits, longevity benefits. And basically what Carol is, is it is a bike that uses AI to adjust the resistance in the actual bike. And then you do a track that is like a hit workout, a high intensity interval training, but it's called re hit, which is the most optimized form of that for minimal amount of time. So the track I've landed on, which is their main track, is just 220 2nd bursts. That's it. Which is crazy. And then there's like a warm up, an in between and a cool down. And you don't even have to do the warm up. I learned. I thought you did, but when I interviewed the founder, I realized you can just start all out sprinting and start with the sprint if you want. So it can actually literally be six minutes and you can do it. They recommend doing it three times a week, although you can do it more. And it's just seriously the easiest thing. And then I've talked about this before, but the track that you can use, it treats you like you're a hunter gatherer, and it talks you through when you're in the slow part of it. It treats you like you're walking in the woods and finding food for your family and all this stuff. And then you see, like a tiger, and then it screams at you and yells at you, and the screen goes bright red and it's like, run faster. It's like your family needs you. And then you're like, running. And it is just the best. When I did it, I actually saw a big change in my HBA one C, and it's hard to know if it was just the bike or other lifestyle factors, but I did see drops in my cholesterol panel and changes in my HBA One C, so I am loving it. You can get it@carolbike.com. And the coupon code, Melanie Avalon, will get you $100 off. Especially for people who are not gym type goers such as myself. This is just, like, my new favorite thing. Oh, which, speaking of, Vanessa, do you know who I'm interviewing tomorrow? Who? Did you ever do P 90 X growing up?
Vanessa Spina:
I definitely saw it, and it was big.
Melanie Avalon:
We definitely had those DVDs. So I'm interviewing Tony Horton, who's, like a legend in the workout world. And he looks. Man, he is doing something right. I looked him up. He's 65, and he looks. I mean, I was watching a podcast of him recently prepping. He literally looks like he's in his 40s. It's inspiring. Mark Sisson also looks amazing. Do you know he's 70?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think I saw his post where he was like, I can't believe I'm 70.
Melanie Avalon:
Have you seen him? Have you met him in person?
Vanessa Spina:
No, I haven't. You are more, always more in the paleo side of things, whereas I kind of skipped paleo. I went right to Keto. But over the years, I've gotten to know more and more people from the Paleo side, usually because they come to Keto, but, yeah, I don't follow as many of the Paleo people I know that you.
Melanie Avalon:
They're. They look great.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. Exercise, Whole foods. Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
I wish you were in the US and we could get you a Carol bike as well. I think you would like it.
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I definitely want to get one from hearing all the updates and just how efficient it is, because I don't have time to do much exercise right now, and I'm going to have even less time coming up. So for me, I'm all about the micro workouts or the biohacks. I literally need all the hacks. I need the hacks because I just don't have the luxury of time right now. So it sounds like you can get a pretty efficient workout done.
Melanie Avalon:
Not only that, it's better than the majority of the workouts you would be doing for cardiovascular health, which cardiovascular disease is the number one leading cause of mortality. And, oh, you also wear a heart rate strap, so it's measuring your heart rate and making adjustments. Yes, it's definitely the optimal, efficient way to, quote, hack the exercise side of things. So highly recommend. Shall we go on to our next question?
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I would love to.
Melanie Avalon:
All right, so this is also from Facebook, and it comes from Marina, and she wants to know the pros and cons of extended fasting and protein sparing, modified fasting between the two, which is better for weight loss. And then we actually also had another question from Tara, and it's similar. So I will read both of them. She says fat fasting versus protein sparing, modified fasting versus irregular fasting, which is better? But she wants to know, especially out of the first two. Okay, so all the options we have here, we have extended fasting, protein sparing, modified fasting, fat fasting, regular fasting. Okay.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. I want to answer them separately in a way, because the first one, I know what the goal is, the target is weight loss. But the second one, it just says which is better from the question from Tara. So I'm not sure for what, but I'll explain what I think each one is optimal for. So extended fasting, I only recommend for doing autophagy for deep autophagy because really that deep autophagy, although you can get autophagy from lots of different things like including exercise, and it's not just fasting, but extended fasting, is one of the evidence based ways that you can really deepen autophagy, especially when you get to the 36 hours plus mark, you get that immune reset, the cellular renewal. My skin always feels as soft as Lucas after, which is crazy. Like I can't stop touching my face because of all of the cellular cleansing and renewal that happens in the dermis and the skin. And there's so many benefits for longevity and antiaging. So I personally have practiced doing seasonal fasts for between three to five days. I usually get to four or five days on most of them annually, which ends up being three to four times a year. And that is just for the purpose of autophagy. There's a little bit of weight loss that usually comes with it, but it's for such a short period of time that it's not really tangible weight loss that you can maintain well. And that's one of the keys when it comes to quality weight loss or fat loss, where you're just losing mostly fat and you're preserving or maintaining your lean mass. I think that is one of the main priorities when it comes to it. And so I much prefer protein sparing modified fasting for that. If I have to choose between the two, neither of these is my top for fat loss. But choosing between the two, I would say protein spraying modified fasting is a dominant option to extended fasting. The main reason is the lean body mass loss can be higher during extended fasting, and a big part of having successful fat loss is the maintenance. So you want to do something that is going to help you to not only protect as much of your lean mass as possible, but also maintain the results. Whereas with fasting, what I see when people do that for fat loss is they usually gain back a lot of what they lose, and they also lose a lot of muscle doing it when they're doing extended fasting for weight loss. So I definitely prefer protein sharing, modified fasting. That's really the whole point of it. When I went back and went through all the obesity research to study the origins of protein sparing modified fast, and the two doctors who initially came up with it, one of them was George Blackburn. They came up with it as a way to help spare and protect lean body mass when people were in extended bedrest. And so they wanted to make sure that people would be able to not lose as much muscle as possible when they were basically in an extended catabolic state. So that's the whole point behind it, is to just lose pure fat, where most of what you're eating is protein, so your body has no choice but to go to your fat stores. And in terms of the protocols of people doing protein spraying modified fasting on a daily basis, I think that's always recommended in the obesity research for either obese or morbidly obese. So being over, I believe for women, it's over 34% body fat is obese and then morbidly obese. I'm not sure what exactly the percentage is for that, but typically doing that every day is recommended for those scenarios and with doctor supervision. But there are people more and more now who are using it to break through fat loss stalls. Weight loss stalls by adding in one to two days a week of a protein spraying modified fast day. And that would be. We've talked about it many times on other episodes, but it's usually around, averages around 800 calories. It's mostly lean protein and a little bit of carb, a minimal amount of fat. And it's just two days out of the week where you're eating at a regular caloric deficit on the other days during a fat loss phase. So that's the first question. Do you have anything to add on that before we go to the next one? Melanie?
Melanie Avalon:
I feel the exact same way. I do think, and I know we've talked about this on recent episodes, and we've talked about this a lot throughout the show, which, by the way, if you go to iFPodcast.com and you use the search bar, you can search through to find other episodes where we've talked about things. All of the episodes actually have transcripts. So that search will actually find, really, anywhere that we've talked about things before. I agree as well for fast, rapid quote, fat loss, protein sparing, modified fasting, I think is the smartest way to go to. And this is just saying what Vanessa said, but basically to preserve muscle while really giving your body nothing else to burn except fat, which is the reason that it can be so effective. And agreed as well about extended fasting. I would not use that for weight loss, especially for people who. Especially for people who are normal weight, and I probably wouldn't even for people who are overweight, because I think that they can get the benefits while not engaging in that. However, there are some people, especially with the supervision of a doctor, where that might be a way to launch everything. But in general, I would not really go that route. And I know Vanessa and I both did. You already air your episode with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. I mean, I know by the time this comes out, you will have.
Vanessa Spina:
It came out yesterday, actually. Okay.
Melanie Avalon:
That's what I thought. I thought I saw it. So I know talking with her especially, and reading her book Forever Strong, which I highly, highly recommend, it'll really make you become aware of the importance of preserving muscle. It is just so important. So, yeah, I would prioritize that in your weight loss approach, for sure, and especially you mentioned it, but the effects of just being sedentary or bed rest and how fast you lose muscle is crazy. And we know that people on extended fasting tend to move less, like, they tend to become more sedentary in their movement, their daily movement.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and then we didn't even really talk about the metabolic slowdown that can happen from being in that mode. So you have less non exercise activity, thermogenesis, which is a big part of your overall resting metabolic rate, than neat. But then you also are potentially losing that super valuable metabolically active tissue, which is the lean mass, which will give you a higher metabolic rate. And then lastly, with a protein sparing modified fast, you're eating protein, which also has that 20% to 30% thermic effect, where 20% to 30% of the calories consumed as protein are burned off just in consuming it. So it's like a triple whammy. And most people don't feel that hungry when they do those days. So definitely a much bigger fan of the latter than the former.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, and just a comment really quickly on the thermic effect of food. One of the questions I got really excited about with Gabrielle, because it was something I've been wondering for so long and I was excited that she actually had thought about it prior to me asking her. I asked her because she talks in her book about how the thermic effect of protein, how protein can be used structurally. That's its main quote. Purpose is the amino acids are being used structurally in the body, but then it can also be used, turned into glucose. Yeah, I guess those are the two ways that it would go. Or it can be, I guess, just kind of wasted. But I asked her, is the thermic effect different in the beginning, like when it's being used structurally compared to at the end, compared to when you've already met your cap for structural needs and you're going more turning it into glucose or just wasting it? Was the thermic effect different? And she said she thinks it is. She thinks the thermic effect becomes more when you surpass your needs. Does that make sense?
Vanessa Spina:
I'm not sure. I thought it was mostly coming from the high ATP energy needs of muscle protein synthesis. So wouldn't that be the first part?
Melanie Avalon:
Yes, that would be the first part, although I guess. Do you know what the energetic conversion requirements of converting protein into glucose or just wasting it?
Vanessa Spina:
Well, I don't know compared with wasting it, but I know, like Dr. Don Layman has said, that in some of the rodent studies they did, that eating a high protein meal was equivalent energetically to going for an hour long run in the rodents. Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
Was that hypochloric or like an isochloric or a hyperchloric?
Vanessa Spina:
I don't know. I didn't ask him about the details of it, but that's just something that we've talked about a few times. But we know it's between 20% to 30% of the protein that you consume.
Melanie Avalon:
So actually, I pulled up the transcript and so Gabrielle said, so basically what I asked her, I said, I'm curious because you talk in the book about how the amino acids from when we eat a meal, they're used structurally, but they can also be used as fuel. Oh, yeah, she does talk about that, how they can be used as fuel, and then they can also be converted into essentially glucose. Do you know if the thermic effect of protein differs based on how you're using those amino acids? And she says it does. She says that's why you see variations in the literature from 15 to potentially 20% of this thermic effect of food. So if you're eating 100 grams of just pure protein, your body might recognize 80 calories of protein. Or if you're eating 100 calories of protein if you're eating it all in a particular meal threshold. Again, this is my thoughts as well as Dawn's shout out to who Vanessa was just talking about that it's that muscle protein synthesis response that generates the variations in thermic effective feedinG. So if it's lower, maybe you're influencing the thermic effective feeding at 15%. But when you're hitting this threshold and challenging the machinery, that is what makes a difference. And then I clarified, I said, is that the thermic effect ramps up when you're going past the limit. And she said, yes.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so that's for sure. Like, if you hit 2.5 grams of leucine in your blood, then you will exceed that leucine threshold in the blood. And that's when muscle protein synthesis is triggered. And that's when you would have that high energetic demand for ATP to go then and synthesize the muscle. But if you don't hit 2.5, like if you are only eating 20 grams of protein at all your meals instead of 30, you're not hitting that threshold. So you still get a thermic effect, but it's just not as robust because you're not actually triggering muscle protein synthesis.
Melanie Avalon:
So is the takeaway still that the more you. Are you saying the more protein you eat, the higher the thermic effect regardless?
Vanessa Spina:
Yes. But you were saying about the time, whether it would be higher later versus higher. Did you mean it would be higher with more protein?
Melanie Avalon:
Right, the timeline, because you have to hit a threshold.
Vanessa Spina:
Okay, yeah. I was confused because I thought you were saying once you. It has more to do with the duration. But I guess the duration applies to the fact that you would have consumed more protein. Yes. And I could see why you would ask that question specifically.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yeah. The timeline was purely. It's like looking at a timeline that only is growing based on eating more.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that's why I understand in that context what you mean. But if someone is continuing to eat protein, but if they eat protein and then they stop, but they've only had 20 grams, then in that sense they would never hit the leucine threshold. So the thermic effect would always be the same. It wouldn't increase even though more time has passed.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yeah, mine had nothing to do with time at all, just eating more.
Vanessa Spina:
But you mean. Yeah, eating more in that time, like.
Melanie Avalon:
Later in the meal. I'm not sure what I said, but later in the meal because you're eating continually.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that totally makes sense.
Melanie Avalon:
More protein. Okay. I used to think about this when I went on a super high protein diet, and I was basically doing PSMF, but not calorie restricted. I would just eat protein and more and more and more. And I was so curious about the fate and the thermic effect of that protein after eating massive amounts.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think that the confusion comes down to the different ways that we eat. Like, you eat over an extended period of time. I like with my protein meals, they're pretty brief. So for me, longer time is like, it doesn't change the amount, but for you, longer time does.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. Although. Yeah, I literally, though, just meant it based on eating more. I didn't mean it about time.
Vanessa Spina:
No, that's super fascinated. I'm glad you asked her that.
Melanie Avalon:
So, all the rabbit holes. What about fat fasting?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. Okay. So, again, it's hard for me to answer this without the goal. If you're asking which is better for fat loss, clearly protein spraying, modified fasting, would be much more beneficial than either fat fasting or regular fasting. If you're asking which is better for deep ketosis, then fat fasting would be better than protein spraying modified fast, and even regular fasting would be even more so than that, because you're not triggering any insulin at all, although the insulin amount is minimal with fat. So if the goal is like, medical ketosis or getting into deep ketogenesis, then I would say, like, regular fasting, assuming that's water only fasting, then fat fasting, and then protein spraying, modified fast. So it really comes down to the goal, because I'm not really a fan of the way that most people do fat fasting. And I think it sometimes is recommended to people for fat loss because it lowers insulin. But the best way to really lower fasting insulin or basal insulin, which is like most of our insulin need, is by losing fat in the fat cells. And so that would be through fat loss, which would be optimized through protein spraying modified fast out of those three, because, again, with the fat fasting and the regular fasting, there is the risk of lean body mass loss. So it really comes down to the goal.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, because I don't think we defined what fat fasting is. It's basically, while people do it different ways, but it's basically eating just fat. People will do it with butter. Some people will do it with not completely fat food. Like, they'll do it sometimes with macadamia nuts, which are very high fat. They might do it with, I mean, really, anything that's some people will even do it with, like, avocados and stuff. So they don't necessarily do it completely fat.
Vanessa Spina:
I've only seen it with just pure fat, like fat and coffee fat and bone broth.
Melanie Avalon:
Maybe this was from my low carb Atkins days. I would be in the forums. Back in the forum days, there are a lot of manifestations of people doing fat fasting.
Vanessa Spina:
Wow, that's crazy.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, because I did it once and I did it with macadamia nuts, and that was miserable.
Vanessa Spina:
I bet it would be, because those.
Melanie Avalon:
Just make you hungry. I mean, for me, those just made me hungrier.
Vanessa Spina:
I think all nuts have an appetite stimulating effect because they have carb and fat. It's the same with avocados. It's like, high carb, high fat.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So some people would do it. People would give it really vague percentages, like, oh, if you're, like, 90% fat. But then some people do it more by the book, like just butter or things like that. Yeah, I did it with cream cheese. I did it with cream cheese. That's what I did it with as well. I tried that.
Vanessa Spina:
Is there any protein in that, or is it pure fat?
Melanie Avalon:
There might be, like, a gram. There is a tiny bit of carbs, but it's primarily fat. Oh, I can taste it now. It's coming back to me. I love cream cheese. And I would, like, mix it with. This was also in my pre paleo days. I would mix it with erythritol, and it would literally taste like icing.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. Or cheesecake. I've definitely had variations of that when I was doing, like, Atkins style, the Induction, or whatever, which is pretty similar to Keto. Yeah, it was very tasty. But the most recent time I did it was when I first started Keto, and I actually gained a ton of weight from doing it. Like, I put on 20 pounds, and that was, like, my first experience with Keto is I was like, I just have to get really high ketones. I was following the advice of some people who were not really putting out the best advice, which I've since learned. And I was getting these ketones of, like, 4.86.0. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm killing it. My insulin must be so low. I must just be, like, torching the fat. And I was like, I think my dryer is shrinking my. Like, I seriously thought that. I seriously thought that. And Pete and I went to Vegas, to Las Vegas for holiday, the two of us. It was just like a weekend thing, and we asked someone to take a picture of us in the same place that we had had this cute picture of us taken a year ago. And I saw the photo and I was like, oh, my gosh, I've gained 20 pounds. And that was how I realized, because I was, like, in denial or something before that, I seriously thought my dryer was shrinking my clothes. I was like, why are my clothes suddenly all tighter? And then I was like, I better weigh myself. I was like, oh, no, I gained 20 pounds and it was all the cream cheese and just eating all the high fat dairy, because I was very misinformed and I thought, all I have to do, it was kind of like fat fasting. All I have to do is get my insulin down and get in deep ketosis, get those high ketones, and I'm going to lose all the fat. And that's really not how it works. I learned, but having done it, I understand people who make the same mistake, and it's really not the best for fat loss.
Melanie Avalon:
I just remember existing in that mindset where I was like, I'm in ketosis. All this fat that I eat, my body's not going to store it. I don't know what I thought it was going to do with it. It's just going to burn it, excrete it, which is just. I honestly think that's one of the biggest, because I love the Low carb keto movement. I do think that's one of the biggest misconceptions and disservices done to people in their fat loss journeys.
Vanessa Spina:
Did you interview Craig Emmerich yet?
Melanie Avalon:
I did.
Vanessa Spina:
So. I interviewed him when we were in Greece. Was like, two weeks ago, three weeks ago, and that's all we talked about, was, like, all the bad information that's being recommended to people on exactly this.
Melanie Avalon:
Yep, quite an issue.
Vanessa Spina:
And he really explains so well the differences between the basal insulin. That's what I found the most fascinating from our conversation, was that most of your insulin needs are coming from the basal insulin, just to keep energy stored away. And those post meal spikes are like 10% if you're doing low carb. But, yeah, it was really fascinating.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, Gary Tobbs talks about that as well. Like, basically, he thinks you have an insulin threshold. And that's exactly what I brought up.
Vanessa Spina:
With Craig, because I posted one of the charts he has in his book that shows that if you have a basal insulin of 25 and above that, typically you have a really hard time losing weight. And this was a study done in lean college students, and as soon as you go under 25 it's much easier to lose weight and have a high metabolic health. But yeah, I brought up exactly him and his book and that study when we were talking.
Melanie Avalon:
I forgot. Did you interview Gary?
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I interviewed him when he put out the case for Keto.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Same.
Vanessa Spina:
And I love that study. It was really fascinating. And I think it does bring up the importance of getting that fasting insulin down, of getting that basal insulin down, because so much more of the insulin demand on the body is from that basal insulin and not from the post meal spikes or the exercise spikes, which people think their insulin is spiking when they exercise, but it's not. Insulin is actually going lower, but to let glucose out anyway. Probably digressing here.
Melanie Avalon:
No, I think it's fascinating. Well, lots of fasting fun on the intermittent Fasting podcast. If you would like to submit your own questions to the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get these show notes at ifpodcast.com/episode348. They will have a full transcript and links to everything that we talked about, and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. All righty. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go.
Vanessa Spina:
I loved all the questions. I feel like we got to more of them than usual, so I'm pretty happy.
Melanie Avalon:
I know, I was like, we're speeding along. We're just all the people loved it. Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely fabulous, and I will talk to you next week.
Vanessa Spina:
Talk to you next week. Bye bye.
Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team administration by Sharon Merriman. Editing by podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
Melanie Avalon:
See you next week.
STUFF WE LIKE
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
LINKS
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Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com
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