Welcome to Episode 374 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
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SHOW NOTES
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MD LOGIC: Try MD Logic's Colostrum and discover the benefits of one of nature's most powerful superfoods. Save 15% off with code IFCOLOSTRUM at mdlogichealth.com.
SEED: Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!
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Listener Q&A: Jen Marceaux - IF & RA Question
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Listener Q&A: What type(s) of intermittent fasting do you practice and why?
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #74 - Benjamin Bikman, Ph.D.
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Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 374 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 374 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. What is new in your world, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, we just had an amazing weekend away. We went to this magical little town for the weekend with a couple of my girlfriends here and their husbands and their kids who my son Luca is obsessed with their boys and they just had the most fun weekend. We all had the most fun weekend being together there. And it was great to get out of the city, just like, you know, get away for, I guess we went Saturday to Monday and I'm still just buzzing off the trip because it was so relaxing, so enjoyable. And you know, when you have little ones, like, and they have friends to play with all weekend, your parents get a little bit of like a break too, so we could sit, enjoy some Prosecco, relax together. Yeah, it was such a fun weekend away. And then we got back. It just feels like we've been kicking off summer. We've been grilling a lot and just, I love grilling because grilling season. I mean, it's delicious to grill, but for me, I feel like I get a break from cooking for at least a few months and a big break because Pete loves to grill. So I basically just have to get the burgers or steak ready and he does the cooking and it's a really nice change of pace.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, grilling. If I were to grill, I would, I literally would just like put it there for a hot second. We've talked about how we cook our steaks, right? Yes, I think so. Like I like mine super rare, very rare. How do you like it?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I like it so rare that people stare. Oh, I like that. People are like, Are you sure? And yeah, I when we were recently in Spain, I got this steak that was so rare and my aunt was just like, Are you okay? Like, I'm like, I've been in Europe too long because in Prague, tartar, like beef tartar is huge and in Paris. And so there's a lot of tartar places. I was craving it my whole pregnancy. And it was like one of the things that was the most excited to get to have again, but I love raw beef. It's just amazing and steak. Sometimes depending on the cut, I'll get it like medium rare, but I love like rare most of the time to and just getting a steak, being able to grill a steak at home, the way that you have it in the restaurant. I know we talked about how you worked at Ruth's Chris, which is my favorite steakhouse. But you know, you go to a restaurant and you pay, you know, 1020, sometimes way more times the price of steak just to eat it the way that they make it at the restaurant, because they have these incredible grills. And they have these like infrared heat, these huge infrared grills that now people can actually get at home. There's a company that I recently started checking out called Schwank grills, and they they basically make the grills that go in all the restaurants. I'm not sure if they had one in Ruth's Chris, but there's a couple of restaurants that are really famous that I think Morton's is one of them. And they make the grills that go in their restaurants. And they started making at home versions so that people can just do that at home and not have to go to the restaurant and basically save so much money because you can have restaurant quality steak at home because of that special infrared grill that you basically you just can't do that, you know, with a stove or even with a regular barbecue.
Melanie Avalon:
So they actually made the grills and mortons? I didn't realize that.
Vanessa Spina:
I think so. I think that's what he told me on our call, but now it's been a few months, so I'm like... Oh, okay. Back check. He told me, I think it was Morton's, because I was really hoping it was Ruth's Chris.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay, the same heating technology used by Morton's.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. So he told me on the call that the grandfather of the founder of Schwank Girls, he invented this technology, the infrared grilling, and they provide the infrared girls in a lot of steakhouses and Morton's is one of them. Did you find it on their website?
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I didn't realize that they have the same technology as Morton's. That's really cool. And I'm just looking them up and they also, let's see. It's the same technology used by Morton's cut for 32 Del Frisco's and many other world -class steakhouses. So yes. So friends, if you are into grilling, the Schwank grills sound absolutely amazing. I just have one little quick fact about what to grill in the Schwank grill. Do you know like the USDA system, like the Select, the Choice, the Prime? I had epiphany about this recently, about the steaks. So that's the grating system. And they always talk about how great USDA Prime steaks are. And even when like, when I was at Ruth's Chris, we would have like USDA Prime, you know, fillets that we've made in this crazy infrared heat. I wonder if it was infrared heat at Ruth's Chris. I'm not sure, but it got really hot. Regardless, I was thinking about it. And if you're eating conventional, and I would be curious your thoughts on this, Vanessa, my thoughts are if you're eating grass -fed beef, I feel better about the higher fat cuts, but if I'm eating like conventional beef, I would want to get leaner because the, the toxins and everything are typically stored in the fat. And then the conventional beef is going to have a less, slightly less ideal Amaco 3 .6 fatty acid ratio. But again, it's not a huge source of that anyways, but my point is if I'm eating conventional beef, I would want to go leaner and the grating. So like Select versus Choice versus Prime, it really has to do with the marbling. So it really has to do with how much fat the steaks have. So if you're shopping at the grocery store, the Select and the Choice steaks, which are going to be cheaper, it's really more about how they just have less fat. And in a conventional steak, that's actually what I would want. Actually, maybe even with grass -fed because I actually like eating leaner beef. I feel like it's a little hack for the grocery store about saving money on steaks.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I love grocery store hacks, any way to make buying high quality meat more affordable, more accessible for more people. And I do sort of, I do practice that myself. When it comes to beef, I tend to buy leaner cuts in general, just as a day to day way of eating. And then if I am going for something, you know, more luxurious, richer, fattier cut, it's usually I go with something grass fed and finished. Usually what we get here is from Ireland or Argentina. Both of those places have grass fed and finished steak here. I think in the US, I usually get it from New Zealand. Whenever I'm in the US and I get my butcher box shipment, I also get all the grass fed and finished beef in there. And I usually choose those fattier cuts as well.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, see, that's an example, glad you brought a butcher box, an example of not having to worry about that as much because all their beef is grass -fed. So here's all the hacks. If you want to go like the conventional grocery store route, get the cheap select beef. And then if you want the grass -fed, get it from ButcherBox because that will save you money and that will be coming straight to your door anyways. And then get your Schwank grill. And we actually have a code for listeners for Schwank grills. So if you go to Schwankgrills.com, so that's S -C -H -W -A -N -K grills.com, you can use the promo code IFPODCAST to get $150 off of your grill. So that's Schwank grills, S -C -H -W -A -N -K grills.com with the promo code IFPODCAST to get $150 off. I really want to give one of these to my dad for Father's Day. When is Father's Day? I think it's June next month. So Father's Day was yesterday. Yes. So that would have been a great present or a good last -minute present if you forgot your dad, which would be a little bit sad, but you can order it now. So yes. And actually speaking of, okay, just one more thing while we're talking about really fun products really quickly. I am so, so excited because I've been talking for so long and I've been using every single night of my life Apollo Neuro. Do you know what this is, Vanessa? I love that.
Vanessa Spina:
it up after you sent me the link it sounds amazing
Melanie Avalon:
And I use a lot of biohacking type things in my life. I started using this when I first, I was around when I first launched my biohacking podcast. It's a game changer. I probably have used it every single night for years, with very, very few exceptions. And I hear equally favorable excitement from listeners about it. So basically what it is, it's a kind of like a watch that you put on your hand, but it's not a watch, obviously. The face of it basically buzzes. It uses soundwave therapy, which is gentle vibrations, and has different programs. And the way it works is those gentle vibrations on your wrist actually activate your parasympathetic nervous system. So it can basically instantly turn off your stress or at least mitigate it just with the touch of a button. It's incredible. I really think it's a game changer in helping me when I was really struggling to actually fall asleep. But it has a lot of other different modes. It has social mode for during the day. It has muscle recovery, things like that. But I use the unwind one every single night, and then it has a sleep one. It's a game changer. I have given it to so many people. I gave it to my mom, and she said it was absolutely amazing. I actually need to text her about it because I feel like she stopped using it. You know how there's some people that you give them things and they love it, and they just stop using it. But yeah, so I'm really excited because they asked to partner with our show, and I just love them for that one. Listeners can go to apolloneuro.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to get a discount on that. So I am very, very excited about that, and the last thing about that, but I'm excited as well because the founder, Dave Rabin, who I've had on my show, I think twice, he's going to be at the biohacking conference, which by the time this comes out that this will be in the past, but hopefully I'll get to meet him in person, which is very exciting. That is so soon for me. So yes, but I think that is all the things. Shall we get into some questions? I would love to. All right. So would you like to read the first question from Jen?
Vanessa Spina:
So our first question comes to us from Jen. Hi, I'm a new listener of your podcast but have been doing IF off and on for about four years in parentheses COVID need I say more I'm back at it and I'm trying to bring a friend along with me. She has rheumatoid arthritis and was recently prescribed Remicade infusions which might be helpful for RA but just like many other pharmaceutical treatments it can also cause a host of other scary things. I suggested that she try intermittent fasting. I know you're not doctors and do not offer medical advice but can you speak to any benefits IF could possibly provide for someone with joint pain, inflammation and autoimmune disorders in general. Thanks. I'm loving your podcast so much. I went back and started at the beginning while I wait for new episodes to come out. Smiley face. I feel like I'm hanging out with my BFFs while I'm listening. I love that Jen. Thank you so much for this great question.
Melanie Avalon:
So, I love this question from Jen. It was actually good timing because last night I was listening to, do you subscribe to Peter Tia's?
Vanessa Spina:
special feed. I do and sometimes I pause it. So right now I have it actually paused and then other times I'll go back and subscribe.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, and then like stock up.
Vanessa Spina:
No, it just kind of like depends when I'm feeling the his content and when I'm not like I find like sometimes he gets in these cycles of when he's like really pro this or anti this or I don't know, it's just depending on what kind of content is coming out. I'm either a subscriber or not, but yes and no.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Now I'm having flashbacks. I had a dream that I met him the other night. I've realized the two people I dream most about meeting are Taylor Swift and Peter Atiyah, which is interesting, but I dreamed he like came up to me and he was like, he was like, I know about your podcast. He was like, one is about biohacking and one is about intermittent fasting. I just can't, you know, cause like he, those are like his, the two things he kind of like, well, biohacking, he does not like. And then fasting, he seems all over the board and it was a tragedy of a dream. Regardless, his most recent Q and a was all about inflammation. So I was excited cause I was like, this is perfect for this question. Although he didn't, I have a few more minutes left in it, but he did not talk about fasting yet. But what I was thinking about was the big takeaway that he really talked about a lot with it. And this is what I think I would have probably said and come to as well is that such a huge factor in our inflammatory conditions is our diet and the food that we're putting in our body. He actually said like the first thing to address really with inflammation is energy overload, like taking in, you know, too much fuel and the effects that that has. But beyond that, so like beyond excess caloric intake and weight and all of those things, there's also, you know, they're reacting to food components. And I'm going to circle back to that because of some of the studies that I found. So I did find a nice October 2023 review and it was called intermittent fasting, a promising dietary intervention for autoimmune disease. And so it was talking about how there are, you know, quite a good amount of studies on intermittent fasting that have shown beneficial effects on various autoimmune diseases and that the different reasons that that might be is because it can reduce inflammatory markers, it can modulate the immune system, it can alter and improve gut microbiota, it can enhance cellular repair mechanisms. And it does that last one through autophagy, which is something we talk about a lot, which is basically where the body goes and in the fasted state uses old problematic broken proteins in the body and breaks them down and reuses them. So it's kind of like a cleansing on the cellular level. So in this review, they said the types of autoimmune conditions that have shown beneficial effects from fasting include type 1 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, and systemic lupus. They said that there needs to be, that there's limited evidence and inconclusive evidence on MS. Now they're saying lupus again. So that's interesting. That sounds like a typo in this paper, thyroid diseases and psoriasis. So all of that said, basically, there are a ton of mechanisms within intermittent fasting that can help with inflammation and autoimmune disease. And I did want to look specifically into rheumatoid arthritis for her question. And so I found a very nice study from March 2024, so also pretty recent. And it was called fasting mimicking diets, a literature review of their impact on inflammatory arthritis. And I was worried it was going to be just about fasting mimicking diets, but it actually wasn't. It actually was about fasting in general. I'm not really sure why they, I feel like they should have titled it something a little bit different. But so in this study, and it was very intense, but they basically talk about the role of fasting in autoimmune conditions in the immune system and autoimmune conditions in general. And basically fasting has a lot of effects on proinflammatory cytokine expression. So that's kind of like what I was talking about a moment ago with the inflammatory markers. And it also has a really interesting impact on both cell trafficking and cell metabolism. So there's a lot of different inflammatory markers that fasting can affect. So there's things like CRP, TNF -A alpha, interleukin -6, IL -6 that people might have heard of, leptin, really quick tangent about CRP. And I don't know if we've talked about this before on the show. Have you tested your CRP much, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
I've tested it here and there over the years, how often do you...
Melanie Avalon:
test it? Well, the reason I was asking is because I test it. So I use insight tracker all the time and it's on their panel. So I've tested it regularly multiple times a year for years and years. And mine's I'm a flat line. What's interesting about it is I guess I thought that that would be normal because it's such a flat line. I've never I've never bumped. It's always the lowest it can be, which it doesn't test for zero. It's like less than one is the lowest it can be on the test. So the lowest it can test on the test is point. Well, okay. It says it can be zero to eight. The range on insight tracker is zero to point eight. I'm wondering if you can even test zero because minus point has been point three every single test for years and years and years. And I thought that that would be normal because it was so flat line. I was like, Oh, that must just be something that some people do. But one of my friends at insight tracker said he's never seen that before ever. I was like, wow. So, and it's funny because I always sort of feel like I'm inflamed. Like I think I get kind of psychosomatic, like obsessed with the concept of inflammation. And I'm like, Oh, I'm inflamed. But from a cellular level, I'm not. So in any case, going back to all the stuff about inflammation, the reason I'm talking about it so much is because arthritis and autoimmune conditions are an inflammatory condition and fasting has such a beneficial effect on all these different biomarkers. Some of the other mechanisms of actions that it talks about, it's postulated that that rheumatoid arthritis actually involves metabolic issues in the cell and the cells aren't actually able to produce enough ATP. And it's been shown that fasting can have a beneficial effect on that entire process, which is super cool. And then so fasting also has a beneficial effect on the balance of the T cells and how they're acting in our immune system. So those are some of the cells that are involved in actually, you know, doing what the immune system needs to be doing. And then what's also really interesting as well is that there might actually be a gut microbiome connection to arthritis and fasting has been shown to have a beneficial effect on the gut microbiome. Circling back to diet, like I was saying earlier, so there's been a few studies on fasting and dietary interventions on rheumatoid arthritis, and they actually in the studies combine them with a diet. So like in one of the studies, they actually combined fasting with a vegetarian diet. And they saw when they did that, so basically not, they didn't like eat during the fast, but they fasted and they followed it up with a vegetarian diet. And they found a significant decline in symptoms for patients who did that eating plan for three and a half months, compared to people who did not. And what's really interesting in the trials and something that they noted is that the benefits that people did seem to experience from fasting would come back when people went back to their normal eating pattern. So it's not like you could use fasting to, I don't really like saying in remission because it sounds like, oh, it can never go away. Or it can sound like you can't be cured in a way. But it is really important to keep in mind that if you put your body back into the state where it's encouraging that inflammatory condition, or it's encouraging that condition that affects the immune system, that the condition would come back. So with something like arthritis, it's not really, I don't think it's like you can cure it permanently with fasting, but it could be that while you're doing fasting, you experience a drastic reduction in your symptoms or like I was saying, going into remission. But yes, basically, there was a lot of literature on fasting and inflammation and the immune system and autoimmune conditions, and quite a few on arthritis specifically. So do you have thoughts on fasting and autoimmune conditions, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
Well, that was such an incredible overview. So comprehensive, so detailed. I mean, it's hard to think of anything to add to that. It was such an amazing response and just so much wonderful information. I think it's amazing, you know, with the body, how intelligent it is, and how it is programmed to thrive and be in homeostasis. And often, we're doing things that interfere with that. And that's one of the reasons I love fasting so much is that you kind of step out of the way of your body's natural innate intelligence and let it restore things. And I think that's why we see so much, you know, healing happening with fasting, why we see so much lowered inflammation, all the things that you were talking about. And, you know, as Jen said, we're not doctors. But you know, there's a lot of research out there showing that, you know, fasting does provide some of these benefits. And a lot of people actually, you know, report that they have alleviation of their symptoms, you know, with either fasting or a combination of fasting and, you know, some kind of medical protocol as well. So, you know, it definitely couldn't hurt to try it, I think. But you know, it all depends on what your friend thinks. But if you are able to maybe show her some of the study, show her some of the research, then maybe she'll become interested and want to try it out. And it could work well for her. It could not. But I don't really think there's that much harm in trying it. And it's, there's just so many lifestyle interventions that are basically free of charge. You know, it just takes trying it out, testing it out and seeing if it makes a difference for you. And if it does, how valuable is that? You know,
Melanie Avalon:
It's so true. And I'm glad you pointed that out. I think it's a really high potential benefit for a really low risk. So like the risk reward ratio is on point. I also forgot to mention Dr. Walter Longo, who did develop the fasting mimicking diet, which I was mentioning in that title of that study. I remember one of his studies and I remember him like saying this. Did he say this to me like on the show? I can like hear his voice saying this. I don't know if it was like on a podcast or on my show or his audio book, but I know they found in their work that they could actually basically regenerate, like replace the rodents entire immune system. Like when they would go on these fasting mimicking diets, it would kill off these old immune cells and basically create a new immune system. Again, that was in rodents, but there's definitely a lot of, a lot of promise there. Like I'll read the summary of the study I was reading or talking about that was specifically about arthritis. So their conclusion was fasting acts on cellular mechanisms and regulates the metabolism of immune cells. Thus commitment to an eating pattern that includes a fasting component could suppress the inflammatory process. So far, most of the reported dietary interventions show beneficial effects on symptoms and disease progression and rheumatoid arthritis and PSA patients, but says there is still much to learn about fasting and the impact of different fasting patterns on non obese and older patients. And more evidence is required before recommending any such eating regimens as supplemental diet therapy to patients with inflammatory arthritis. And to clarify that, that sentence I feel is talking more about like doctors, you know, recommending this as an actual, you know, diet, like it says, diet therapy. I wouldn't be nervous about that sentence or shy away from using it. I find that overall, the study was really, really supportive. Like the beginning of the conclusion said, definitely let us know Jen. I mentioned earlier that that CRP, that would be a good, you know, if somebody's looking for like an actual marker of something changing for inflammation in their body. I mean, of course they could look at their autoimmune markers, like their antibodies, but measuring their CRP would be something good to look at because that would be a good indicator of, you know, how is your inflammatory response in your body actually changing? And do you have chronic inflammation or not? So Okey Dokey, and actually I'll give a link for inside tracker. Since I, like I said, I'm so obsessed with it. You can go for that one. You can go to inside tracker.com/Melanie, and the coupon code Melanie will get you. They just switched over to a subscription model. I know you get some sort of discount with that code. So that is something to check out. Okay. Shall we go into our next topic? I would love to. So I thought this would be fun. I really liked posting in the Facebook group and asking questions for the audience. And I was really curious asking people, I said, friends, what type of intermittent fasting or types do you practice and why? I was really curious what people would say. So would you like to hear what some of the people are practicing? I would love to.
Vanessa Spina:
I love these segments.
Melanie Avalon:
I like it too because I don't read it beforehand, the answers. So it's like in real time, me reading it right now. And I like hearing people's reasons. So Emily said she does a daily eating window because it is a comfortable way to live. So I'm not sure exactly what hours she's practicing. Janice says she does a daily fasting window. Okay, so now we're getting into it right away, whether or not people look at the eating window or the fasting window. So Janice does a daily fasting window of 18 to 20 hours. She says, I'm just not hungry. All I eat is protein and healthy fats. During the week before my menstrual cycle, I cut back to 14 hours or so because perimenopause is kicking my butt these days. We had a recent episode where we talked about fasting around your menstrual cycle. So listeners can check that out. Bethany said, I mainly do 16, 8, but once a week, a 24 hour fast and a couple times a year, a two to three day fast. I'm about to start trying 12 to 14 hours fasting as I'm not losing fat. Even though I'm not hungry for breakfast, I realize I'm not getting enough protein in two meals. I mostly eat protein and veggies and fruit. I just can't eat too much at once or I feel bloated. Stephanie said I stopped eating after dinner and I don't eat again until lunch the next day. IF has helped my late night snacking so much. Zoe said I'm usually an 18 -6 schedule, but I've done a couple 36 hour fasts. Andrea said I eat one meal a day fasting 20 to 23 hours per day. It's simply the pattern that I've fallen into comfortably and easily. It works with my schedule to eat dinner with my family. Then I keep eating until I'm full and I close my window again until dinner the next day. I've done a few extended fasts of 48 hours without problems. I don't have a reason to eat one meal a day. Aside from it's just what naturally comes to me. I'm not hungry during the day so there's no reason to eat. I'm written fasting has been an absolute game changer in my health. My doctor is thrilled with my labs. He gets so excited to see me because I always have him run a fasting insulin test. None of his other patients are ever fasted long enough or have already had their coffee. Jane said that this is her pattern as well that she's been fasting five and a half years and it is effortless to live this way and has been a game changer for her health too. I'm trying to remember didn't you test your insulin your doctor said it was too low?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it always gets circled because it's like way out of range. But it's usually around two. I think the last I had it was 1 .4 and I need to do an updated test, but everything gets so wonky during pregnancy and postpartum I'm waiting a little bit. And then I will do an updated test, but it's tight. My, it's my, my blood glucose control is tight. And yeah, I know we're, we're going to be talking next episode about CGM's and I definitely saw it in action using the CGM. So just a little teaser about that episode, but yeah, it was, it was too. And a lot of my things come out of range and I want them to be, because I don't want to be in range with the general population reference ranges because we know we have, you know, in the Western world, a population that is mostly metabolically unwell, so I want to be out of range.
Melanie Avalon:
No, well, speaking to the insulin, that's crazy about your insulin. They actually recently did add insulin to inside tracker as well, which was really exciting for me. So I have only tested it. I tested it the past two times. I went, it's never been low like yours. Like mine, let's see, mine last time was 4 .6. And then before that it was five. I'm normally usually like six or under. I'm trying to remember Dr. Benjamin Beckman. Did you interview him? Have you interviewed him? Dr. Beckman.
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, yes. Many times. Yeah. Are you talking about the best range for insulin? Six and below. Six. Okay. That's what I thought. That's the stricter side, which I agree with. Some people go higher than that. I've heard as high as 10. I know Dr. Gary Taubes, he's shown research when it goes above 15 is when people start to really have big issues with managing their weight, etc.
Melanie Avalon:
Well, yeah. So mine, mine's always been under six, which is good. Knock on wood. But yours, I mean, your sounds amazing too. So yes. Okay. Wait, why did I get inspired by that? Somebody said, Oh yeah. Andrea said that she ran her fasting insulin test and how excited her doctor was. So super cool. Um, a few more. So Kathy, 24 is her average. She says some days are a bit longer, some shorter. Mary Ann says 19 five. She opens her window at noon. She's flexible for social occasions and she eats every day. She started in August 2019. And then Arietta said, this is my pattern too. She started IF in August, 2018. I find it so interesting that people are giving like very specific things. And then other people have the same patterns as well. Laura said after years of 18, six, I've adopted a more flexible fasting schedule, intuitive eating, I guess putting on muscle requires me to eat more often, but my body can slip back into fasting on days. I feel the need. Oh, before I keep going, we did that teaser for the CGMs. We are going to talk about it next episode. I'm so excited because Vanessa has a lot of experience using them recently. Holly said I used to do a lot of 18, six, 19, five. I got a CGM and figured out my blood sugar spiked too much no matter what she ate, breaking her fast, switched to a short 12 to 14 hour fast and my blood sugar remains steady and I've lost weight and body fat. Tracking macros has also been key and I never eat after 7 p .m. So listeners can go to Nutrisense.com/IF podcast and use the coupon code IF podcast and that will get you $50 off a CGM. We love CGMs. Listen next week because we're going to talk some more about it. That's so interesting. So that's an example where she was fasting longer and then she found that by fasting shorter, it helped her blood sugar and I would wonder is it the fasting shorter or is it that when she fasted shorter, maybe it changed how she was eating and that had the effect, the different effect on the CGM. Do you have thoughts on that, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's hard to say. I mean, I say definitely if you are fasting, we know that's lowering insulin and making you more insulin sensitive, and you should notice a better recovery from your meals and things with the fasting. But I'm not sure how having a shorter fasting period would increase the insulin sensitivity. Do you know what that might like? I don't know what mechanism that would be. But sometimes you see results on the CGM that are sort of counterintuitive. You'll expect something to make your blood glucose rise and it will actually do the opposite. So there's a lot more I think happening than we actually fully understand, even though you have an app and it sort of is giving you interpretations and things. But typically, I would say a longer fast would make you more insulin sensitive. But again, so many things are bio individual. So it could be that that's just what works best for you.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I agree. Like I, I would doubt it would be the actual fasting shorter that is creating the change. I would think it's probably maybe when you were fasting longer, you were, it could may or may not be something like this. I'm just putting it out there. Some people if they're fasting longer, maybe they overcompensate with eating and they eat more than they would have. And they have like a higher glycemic load in the, in the meal that they're eating than compared to when they, when they fast shorter, maybe they're eating, just eating less. I think that could happen probably with a lot of people.
Vanessa Spina:
I think that's a really good point. Oftentimes, if you fast for too long, then, you know, you might start wanting or thinking that you need more food than you do. And then you could maybe overeat or overcompensate. Whereas if you are doing more meals or something, then you won't be eating as much. I think that's a really good point.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So some more. So Becca, she says ADF works great for me. She did 19 .5, 22 .2 and one meal a day, but now she's doing ADF and it works wonderful. So ADF for listeners, it's alternate day fasting and it's not really intuitive based on the naming, but basically it's usually where two days a week, you either fast completely and so like you don't eat those days or you eat up to like 500 calories. Sunny said after six years, I believe I am now in the eating window phase of the journey. Clean fast, 16 .8, no fuss, no muss. I love that and I love Sunny. She's been, she's like one of the original like people in my Facebook group from the very beginning. It's so weird to think that there was a time when the Facebook group, like when I started it, that's crazy to think about. Okay. Angie said, I started IF four or five years ago. I'm type two diabetic. My A1C used to fluctuate between six to seven. I'm proud to say for the past four years, my A1C is between 4 .8 to 5 .3. Some medication has been removed altogether and my metformin has been reduced to a small dose. I do one meal a day on weekends to switch things up. I have made this lifestyle for health benefits and any weight loss is a bonus. That is awesome. I love hearing that. Tabitha says, I have done IF for four and a half years now. First two years, I was one meal a day, 24. I lost 75 pounds. The third year I tried other IF protocols due to being peri -menopausal and listening to advice on fasting for hormones. I didn't like any of those and I slowly gained some weight. February, 2024, I went back to my original one meal a day plan with one day a week of 18, six, and I feel my best with this pattern. I like what she said there because, you know, we talked about it before on a prior episode, actually a lot of episodes, but there are a lot of recommendations to adjust fasting for your cycle and especially like your peri -menopause years. And for some people, that works really, really well. And for some people, it doesn't. They just like, you know, like doing what they normally do. And so that was the experience with Tabitha and I think that's just good motivation because I think it can be scary to try different things. So I think it's good to know that you can always try different things. And if they don't work, you don't have to do them. Like nobody's forcing you to do anything, which is really awesome. Like you have so much freedom in trying different things and finding what works for you. Kelly said, since I had my third baby at 43 and really started looking after my health, I've been intermittent fasting. So it's been seven years, but I've been doing it longer for 14 years. I would stop eating around seven at the latest and break my fast midday. I breastfed my baby for two and a half years. Even went to Thailand when she was one and a half, thinking that was long enough. I detox and fasted for nine days, expressing all my milk and felt so incomplete, wanting to continue to feed her. I put her back on and fed for another year. Just amazing. I do three day water fasts every three months and attend a annually. I'm due for my second one this summer. The autophagy process is so powerful. Alexander said 16, eight every single day. Often longer fasts really helped me lose 15 pounds and keep them off. It gives my body a break, makes me fat adapted. I think it made me get sick less and recover faster. Amy does anywhere from 16 to 18 hours fast on average. She started five years ago. She lost 20 pounds and she's maintained and she breaks her fast with two servings of perfect aminos. We have just a few more. So Terry, 16, eight, she started in 2021. She's 61. She opens her window from one to three p .m. However, this can cause trouble because I can snack too much after dinner, which has always been her weakness. On days that I get enough protein, it's easier to make better food choices after dinner. I'm considering getting a CGM to highlight the effects of food choices and timing, mainly to improve my sleep and overall health. My fasting insulin and weight are normal. I love the freedom and energy levels. Anna wanted to know, has anyone tried the fasting mimicking diet for five days? Just curious about the health benefits. I've heard it gives you a great reset. I forgot, Vanessa, have you tried the fasting mimicking diet? No. Yeah, I tried for like a day.
Vanessa Spina:
I think it's interesting for people who don't want to fast or can't fully fast. I think there probably should be something out there for people that is more accessible. I've heard it's sort of something that becomes popular in places where everyone is always excited about the latest fast, you know, the latest thing. But personally, I just think, you know, just fast, like fasting. You know, we talk about how the definitions of fasting or there's no consensus. To me, fasting is just not eating, just nothing, but I do understand the science behind it and the fact that lower protein intakes do have some effects. I just don't think that they necessarily should be extrapolated to humans because most of them have been done on rodents, on animal models that I don't think are comparable enough to us, and I think it's more important to get the protein in than to go doing these low protein diets, but it's just a personal opinion. So for me, if I'm going to fast, I'm just going to fast. Maybe here and there, throw in a low protein date if you want to, but the concept of that prolon fast, for me, I know would be, I would be starving, I would be thinking about food because I need protein to feel full and not think about food because my body every day, just like every other human, has to get protein. It's the one essential macronutrient that our bodies cannot synthesize on its own, and I would argue that even the quote unquote non -essential amino acids are essential, but that's a whole other podcast, so your body has to get protein every single day from external sources, and if it doesn't, then you will be getting it from your own sources, and your body is always going to need to keep and prefers to keep your vital organs that keep you alive over your muscle tissue, your skeletal muscle, things that are hard to put on, things that are hard to grow, so yeah, sorry, I'm going on a rant, a simple question, but I am really not a fan of it, so I think I get a little triggered when I hear it.
Melanie Avalon:
I almost wonder if, because I was talking earlier about how Peter Tia seems like he's such a fan of fasting and then like not at the same time, I don't know, he seems to have concerns about it. And I almost wonder if it's because he did so many, he always talks about how he went through a period of time where he was doing, like he was doing a lot of extended water fasts. And I wonder if like the muscle loss from that kind of carried over to his perspective of fasting, because he always goes on and on about fasting and being worried about muscle loss and how women need to have like a protein shake during their fast, which to me seems counterintuitive to have like eat food during your fast. But I wonder if it speaks to what you were talking about with these longer fasts and not getting the protein.
Vanessa Spina:
I just like let's call it what it is. It's a low calorie diet. It's a low calorie diet plan. But it's being called fasting mimicking or whatever, because it's trendy. And it makes people feel like they're fasting, but they're not they're on a low calorie diet. So I don't like that the term is being borrowed or used incorrectly. Because to me, it's just not fasting. It's, it's a low calorie diet, we all know what low calorie diets do. And especially ones that are devoid of protein. So when you look at it through the lens of a low calorie diet, with barely any protein in it, does that sound healthy? No, but when you call it fasting mimicking or fasting, whatever, then it gives it this halo effect that it's healthy. But I really don't think it's a good idea.
Melanie Avalon:
So I personally would find it very difficult to do. Like I said, I do think because I know the purpose of it is he basically Dr. Longo identified, I'm trying to remember how many biomarkers of fasting. It was like four, five, a handful of biomarkers that were elevated in fasting. It had to do with ketones and glucose and a few others. He found the dietary protocol that would create those same biomarkers while still allowing intake of these foods. And it was this protocol he came up with that's the fasting mimicking diet prolon and it's really low calorie. I guess what I would say to the... The reason I don't see it as just a low calorie diet is I think a lot of people do a low calorie diet, but they're not doing a prolon severely restricted five days protocol that creates these same fasting biomarkers, at least the ones that he found. I guess I feel like it could be for people who want to do a five day water fast, but some people do find eating that easier. I feel like for me, it spices up my hunger, makes me hungrier. I'd rather just water fast like you were saying. But for some people, I think it does make it easier. So like Nina commented on Anna's comment and she said, she said, I did it with prolon. I'm not sure if it did anything, but it was much easier than normal water fasting. I guess you have to do a pre and post test, but what would you test? I would answer for her the pre and post test. I mean, that would be a good time to do something like an Inside Tracker, like before and after, like their full panel. It sounds harder for me to do. I'd rather just water fast. I can see though the therapeutic benefit and I can also see like for people who, maybe people who have never fasted, who are severely overweight, who could benefit from a longer, lower calorie intense structure thing and they're just intimidated, maybe having the structure of prolon would work for them.
Vanessa Spina:
I do think it has a place, like I said, I think I agree with you. I think there are some people that might find it more accessible potentially. I know there was someone in our group for the podcast that said they did a proline and they use the tone device and their ketones went really high when they were doing it. Oh, that's cool. Cause I never heard anyone ever tested that before. But it makes sense because the protein was so low that they probably got into ketosis on it. Cause you can get into ketosis in so many different ways, even on there's research showing you can get into ketosis, a thousand calorie diet of all carbs. So it's like, it's, it's a state, right? It's a metabolic state, not necessarily a diet. So I do think that there are probably applications for it, but in general, if people want autophagy, I mean, I just interviewed Dr. Tommy Wood and I have a couple other guests who are coming on the podcast to talk about this, but he talks about in humans. If we really look at the human data on research, it's not conclusive that fasting really gives us so much amazing autophagy compared with, for example, exercise. So he said the research does state that doing a 30 minute resistance training workout, lifting weights gives you more autophagy than a three day fast. So between those two, which would you rather do if the science shows conclusively, you're getting the same amount of autophagy.
Melanie Avalon:
That's crazy, right? I didn't know they actually had seen that.
Vanessa Spina:
He's really interesting because I asked him a lot about Dr. Mark Madsen's research and he said, again, so much of the research has not been done on humans. There's a researcher that I'm about to have on the podcast and she's right now putting together some really interesting data on humans with regards to this because a lot of it's been done in the past with rodents, especially when it comes to mitochondrial biogenesis, coming from facet exercise versus fed exercise. It really has to do with how much you are activating your muscle. It's a whole other topic, I know, but you can get so much autophagy just from exercise, from doing resistance training, from lifting weights, and you don't necessarily have to fast for days and days. I think it's just a really key thing to keep in mind when you're considering all these different approaches. Doing extended fast, I think, over 48 hours may have more downside risk if you're over 40, especially, and you are trying to put on more lean mass to keep you healthy in your later years, whereas you could just get as much autophagy from doing some weightlifting.
Melanie Avalon:
That's amazing. I can't wait for the research. And yeah, I think that's a good example of something like one of the myths with fasting because people be like, autophagy is on or off, but autophagy is actually always happening. Fun fact, even at a small level, somewhere everywhere. So it's not, it's not even an on off switch. Yeah. Fascinating. Well, so there are two more comments. I think I'm going to save them for next episode because one of them has things I want to talk about associated with it. So this has been absolutely wonderful. So a few refreshers for listeners from the beginning of the episode, it's summer, it's grilling season. If you want to get a grill to deliciously grill your steaks restaurant quality style, definitely check out shrink grills at shrinkgrills.com with promo code IFpodcast to get $150 off. And then if listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. And then they can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcasts. I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. Oh, and the show notes are at ifpodcasts.com/episode374. And they will have a transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. All right, I think that is all the things anything from you Vanessa before we go.
Vanessa Spina:
I had such a wonderful time and looking forward to the next episode.
Melanie Avalon:
Me too.
Melanie Avalon:
Talk to you then. Talk to you soon. Bye. Bye.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
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The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
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