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Feb 28

Episode 202: Caffeine Metabolism, Slow Eating, Hydration, Protein Intake, Insulin Resistance, And More!

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The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #74 - Benjamin Bikman, Ph.D.

Welcome to Episode 202 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

Listener Feedback: Samantha - Eating with family

Listener Q&A: Christina - How much black coffee

Listener Q&A: sara - Black coffee

Listener Q&A: shelley - Podcasts....how do you listen to sooooo many??

Listener Q&A: Hannah - what if I don’t “Just Know”

Listener Q&A: jessica - Q&A

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #57 - Robb Wolf

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 202 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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One more thing before we jump in. Are you concerned about aging? Well, thankfully, fasting is super incredible for its anti-aging benefits. It activates genes in your body called sirtuins, which repair your body and help extend lifespan. Also, during the fast, your body can clean up a lot of harmful chemicals which may be taxing your detoxification systems. In fact, the reason people go gray is because their detox systems start producing a lot of hydrogen peroxide when dealing with toxins. Do you know where a lot of those chemicals come from? Your skincare and makeup. As it turns out, there are 1000s of compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup that Europe has banned due to their toxic nature and the US has banned less than 10. When you put these on your skin every single day through your skincare makeup, you're adding to your body's burden and likely aging your skin faster.

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Hi everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 202 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: [sighs] I'm in the stage of book writing, where one minute I'm like, “This is the best book I've ever written.” The next minute, I'm like, “This book is the worst book I've ever seen.” You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: It's the love-hate relationship of the writing process. It makes you question everything, and then you find something-- You find things people are saying. Then, you're like, “Alright, let me find something in PubMed that backs it up” and that's not what PubMed says, you're like, “What? Are we all wrong about this?” Then you start digging some more. Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: I feel it's the perfect example of can't see the forest for the trees, because you've been writing it for so long, and it's all your words, and you can't get a perspective of what it looks like from the outside.

Gin Stephens: Right now, it's a big ol’ hot mess, but it's getting there. I'm getting there.

Melanie Avalon: A lot of trees.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I like to just throw everything in a pile and then sort it. That's what I'm writing, like, it's a big, giant pile, and then I'm sorting it as I go.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I do. I like word vomit, write.

Gin Stephens: That's what I'm doing. I'm in the word vomit stage. That's a really good way of explaining it. Then you clean it up and make it tell a story and make sense. Right now, it feels like word vomit. I'm like, “How am I going to put that--” Anyway, I have the organizational structure obviously figured out, but it's a lot. You forget. It's like childbirth. Once you've had kids, you forget about the process. You're like, “Where’s my baby? My baby’s so pretty,” but you forget about all the hard parts. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I guess for me, it'd be like my septoplasty surgery.

Gin Stephens: There you go. It's worth it now, but going through it, you're like, “Why am I doing this again? I like my other book. That's enough.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I used to think I was original in saying this quote, and then I realized, I feel this is a really famous quote by somebody about writing with wine and then editing with caffeine.

Gin Stephens: I don't know if I've ever heard that.

Melanie Avalon: I always used to say I write with wine, and then I edit it with caffeine, but that's like a quote. Wait, let me look it up.

Gin Stephens: Well, it makes sense because you have to be in the flow. When you're writing and when you're in the creative process, you're in the flow, and you just let loose and you get out of your way. There's that word vomit that you talked about where you just put it all in there. Then, you go back, you're like, “What did I say?” That's when you need to focus and try to make it make sense.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, exactly. I'm sorry that you're off the wine train.

Gin Stephens: No, it's okay. Oh, sorry that I'm off the wine. Well, I am still a little bit salty about that. I must admit. The other night, I had a tiny micro-dose of wine. Chad can go through a bottle of Dry Farm Wines in two weeks. He drinks really slow. He's an original microdoser. He had some, so I poured a tiny little bit in my glass and had a little microdose, a little Melanie Microdose, and I was fine. Then, the next night I was like, “Well, I'm just going to have like an inch, an inch of wine. That's hardly anything.” Then I tossed and turned all night. [exhales] I know it really affects me.

Melanie Avalon: I've definitely learned with my Oura ring when wine does or does not affect my sleep and heart rate variability.

Gin Stephens: Oh, when does it?

Melanie Avalon: Normally, I usually have probably a glass, if that, before my one-meal-a-day dinner. If I do all that, I'm completely fine. Surprisingly, if I am at properly socially distanced gatherings where I'm drinking more, and even if it's not Dry Farm Wines, as long as it's earlier in the evening, and that's all I'm doing and then I come back, I'm actually still fine. It's only when I am drinking a lot more and I'm at home, so I think it's too close to going to bed, it's like the Oura ring knows, it's crazy.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's interesting. I didn't realize it again, like I said before, until I started with my bed tracking. I'd be like, “Oh my gosh, look at how little I slept last night.” Just like the Oura ring, it let me know, it tells me my heart rate variability and all of that. The point of it is it's hard to undo the association that my brain has with, “Hey, it's Friday night and I'm going to unwind with a glass of wine.” Even just one glass I feel like, “No, I don't need to unwind with wine.” That's a tongue twister.

Melanie Avalon: I know. My dad actually texted me yesterday because I got him Dry Farm Wines for Christmas. He's been texting me every time he opens the bottle, like, “Love the Dry Farm Wines.” Finally, yesterday, I was like dad he could sign up for a subscription, and so he is doing that.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yay, Dad.

Melanie Avalon: I know my sneaky Christmas present maneuver because I want him drinking it because I think it's so much healthier. For listeners, if you'd like to get your own Dry Farm Wines, even if you just want to microdose it, like Gin, have a little tablespoon. Our link is dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and at that link, you will get a bottle for a penny.

Gin Stephens: I'm sure listeners are laughing because how many of the things that you say that you do. I'm like, “I'm never going to do that.” Then I'm like, “Guess what I'm doing now?” [laughs] Oh, that's funny.

Melanie Avalon: I have a really fun story.

Gin Stephens: Okay, I love fun stories.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to tell you this after we talked, but I just realized I could just tell it on the podcast. My new obsession is-- not my new obsession, but my new research obsession is deuterium-depleted water. I think I've been talking--

Gin Stephens: See, I don't even know what that is. You said, and I'm like, “Yeah, I don't know what that is.”

Melanie Avalon: I'm really shocked that people don't know more about it. In the past week, I have talked to basically two of the main figures in that-- it's not even a movement because people aren't really aware of it, but in that sphere, and talking to them and doing research, I am blown away, how we're not thinking about this more. Basically, what it is like really long story short-- and you can ask Chad this, since this is about molecules.

Gin Stephens: I'm sure, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Apparently there are three types of hydrogen. There's hydrogen, like hydrogen bombs that doesn't really exist anymore. There's proteome, which is the type of hydrogen found in normal water. Then there's deuterium, which is hydrogen with an extra neutron on it, so it's heavier than normal hydrogen, and so water can be made of both types of hydrogen. The heavier type, the deuterium-- because water goes into our mitochondria and is used for energy, the deuterium literally wrecks our mitochondria. It gunks up, which for listeners, if you're not familiar, our mitochondria are the part of our cells that generate energy in our body. When we take in high levels of deuterium, it literally slows down and impedes the entirety of our body's energy processes. I'm just blown away.

Gin Stephens: Was water naturally deuterium depleted or didn't have it? How's this happened?

Melanie Avalon: Like, why is it worse now?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Well, yes, the water changes. It has changed throughout time. We naturally deplete it through healthy practices. What's interesting is one of the guys that I interviewed this week, which has to do with the story, he said he thinks basically, the reason everything is helping the way it helps us, fasting and cold exposure, sauna, exercise, is because it's depleting deuterium. He thinks it's the common factor. He actually thinks it's the common factor in cancer. Yeah, so fasting depletes deuterium. A lot of the lifestyle things that we do that are considered to be unhealthy encourage deuterium buildup. The story is, I first heard about this-- Gin, I think you were on the interview, because it was our interview with Joovv, or I don't know if it was my interview, or the one that we both did. Do you remember it coming up ever?

Gin Stephens: Well, it's been so long.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. When I interviewed Scott at Joovv, because I've interviewed him twice, and one of them was on this show. That's the first time I'd ever heard of deuterium. It was because I remember us both-- like I can see in my head, us both listening to him, talk about it. He had mentioned Dr. Que Collins, and this was literally like two years ago. I was like, “I’ve got to track down this guy, and bring him on my show.” A few months ago, I didn't reach out to him, his agents or his people reached out to me and asked if he could come on the show. I was so excited because I've been wanting to interview him for two years. We had the interview this past week. Gin-- Okay, so I got on the call and he started, freaking out, fanboying saying that he just realized this week that he was interviewing with me and how he's been a fan of me.

Gin Stephens: Oh, wow.

Melanie Avalon: For a long time.

Gin Stephens: That's so awesome.

Melanie Avalon: It was crazy. I was like, “What? People know about me?” People I really look up to and respect, but it was just really, really exciting because I always feel I'm looking from the outside in through a window into the biohacking world. So, it's really exciting to know that people consider me--

Gin Stephens: You're inside the house.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. [laughs] I always feel I'm like looking in the window.

Gin Stephens: I know. Me, too. I know exactly what you mean. “What do you mean you've heard of me? What? Huh?”

Melanie Avalon: What? He was legitimately excited, and I was like, “This is so wonderful.” I'm really happy. For listeners, I will report back because, not him, but the other deuterium figure that I talked to, they're going to send me two months of deuterium-depleted water. So, I'm going to do a deuterium depletion protocol and test my levels before and after, and see if it changes my life.

Gin Stephens: How do you test them?

Melanie Avalon: I'm not sure what the test is. I know there's a saliva test, a breath test, might be a blood test. I'm not sure.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's so interesting. I can't wait to hear. I'm not going to say I want to do that, as long as you don't have to do it while you're in the cold shower.

Melanie Avalon: No, the cold shower would help though. You do have to make all of your coffee with the deuterium-depleted water.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Right now, what I'm doing is they want me to figure out how much water I drink per day so they can know how much.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that would be tricky, because I have no idea. I'm really bad at tracking and measuring things.

Melanie Avalon: Drink out of the Whole Foods liter, so I'm just seeing how many I drink per day.

Gin Stephens: Right now, I'm drinking a mug of hot water.

Melanie Avalon: You and your hot water, I don't think I'm ever going to do that.

Gin Stephens: I know, because I'm freezing. I'm so cold. It's so good, though.

Melanie Avalon: But I like being cold.

Gin Stephens: I don't.

Melanie Avalon: It's just hot water.

Gin Stephens: It's so good. I promise you. It's delicious.

Melanie Avalon: So is cold water. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I drink that too. It just makes me feel soothed from the inside out.

Melanie Avalon: Cold water on your body.

Gin Stephens: Hot water from the inside out.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. All right. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, we have some feedback from Samantha and the subject is “Eating with Family.” She says, “I keep hearing about moms who are trying to IF having issues with family meals. That's definitely an issue for many of us. Today's question partially had to do with the family having to wait around while mom finishes her meal. One of my children and I had this discussion yesterday. Kids are conditioned to eat quickly at school. We need to teach them to eat slowly at home and away from school. It's healthier in the long run to eat slowly and hear your body's cues and savor your food. Let's encourage moms to teach this. It helps everyone with the dilemma.” Man, I love that that is so true, as somebody who was a teacher for 28 years. They have, in Georgia, I don't know what it is everywhere else, but in Georgia, at our school, where I worked, they had 30 minutes, these were elementary kids, 30 minutes in and out of the cafeteria. That didn't mean 30 minutes at the table, because if you were running a little late to the cafeteria, or if the person who was before you in the lunch line [clears throat] teachers who are always late, that's my pet peeve because I was always on time. They were late and they would get there and they would hold you up or the lunch line, if it was pizza day. Your class might take eight minutes to get through the lunch line. Then, by the time they're seated that eats into their 30 minutes, maybe that 10 minutes is gone. You only have 20 minutes, and maybe they get up 30 minutes early, so they're really cramming in the food.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I remember that from the entirety of my school. I remember it being very distressing to me, because I like to have plenty of time. I don't like being just, in general, I don't like being rushed. Yeah, by the time you get your food, it was very, very brief that you actually had to eat. I think that's a huge problem. I think kids having to go to school so early, the sleep deprivation and everything.

Gin Stephens: Right, and that might not be their typical circadian rhythm of stage of their life of when they would want to get up or eat. Yeah, I love that idea. Instead of feeling like you have to keep up with their fast pace, teach them to learn from you and slow down.

Melanie Avalon: We don't talk about it much. I think it's one of my favorite things about intermittent fasting one meal a day is just how incredibly long I take to eat my meal. I love it. I love savoring it. I don't miss rushing meals.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't like to be in a rush either. Absolutely not.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so now we have two questions about coffee that I'm going to read. The first one is from Christina, the subject is “How much black coffee?” Christina says, “Is there a limit to how much coffee you can drink? I'm in my second week of the clean fast. I'm not very good with water, so drinking a few cups of coffee in the morning. Thanks.”

Gin Stephens: Okay, you want me to answer that one now?

Melanie Avalon: Sure.

Gin Stephens: Okay, there really isn't an answer to that that would be universal. I've talked before about being a slow alcohol metabolizer. Meaning that the rule of thumb that we hear is that it takes an hour to metabolize one unit of alcohol, whatever that might be in terms of whether it's wine or beer, whatever. Well, that's not true for my body. My body clears alcohol more slowly, so I have to drink less alcohol than someone else. Then, you can also be a slow caffeine metabolizer. That's the thing. My DNA indicated I was not a slow caffeine metabolizer, thank goodness. So, I can handle caffeine better. Thank the Lord, I'd be so sad if I metabolized everything slowly, but coffee is not a problem for me. Wine is. I think you know when you're having too much, you can feel it. If you feel like it's affecting your sleep negatively, cut back on it. Our bodies tell us when we're having too much of something generally. When we look at long-term research on coffee, there is an association between longevity and coffee consumption. So, I wouldn't worry about, like, “Oh my gosh, is this bad for me?” If you feel great, you're probably fine.

Melanie Avalon: That was exactly what I was going to say was its individual, the caffeine metabolism rate. The half-life of caffeine-- I was thinking about this actually last night, because I was reading Shawn Stevenson's new book, Eat Smarter. He had a whole section on the half-life of caffeine and slow and fast caffeine metabolizers. He was saying the half-life of caffeine is about six hours, which means after you drink coffee, six hours later, half of the caffeine is gone. But that would completely depend, I think, on if you're a slow or fast metabolizer. In any case, I feel like just finding the amount that supports the best energy level for you without creating a slump or a drop, and also, which doesn't interfere with your sleep-

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think that's great advice.

Melanie Avalon: -I think is huge, and that can be really different amounts for different people.

Gin Stephens: You know what really freaked me out when I realized I was a slow alcohol metabolizer, was the idea that maybe I accidentally did drunk driving the next day, without even meaning to. I would sleep all night and wake up. Let's say I'd been at the beach and then I had to drive home, was there enough alcohol in my system because I would never drive after drinking. Never, never, never. If I had one glass of wine, I wouldn't drive. But it's the next day, you're thinking, “I've been sleeping. It's 12 hours later, it must be fine.” Maybe I wasn't. Anyway, that freaks me out to think about because I'm such a law-abiding person. I would never-- I was like, the Uber girl, I would Uber everywhere the night of, but anyway.

Melanie Avalon: I do want to throw out there. I do think in general though, I go back and forth. I do a lot of research. Sometimes, I'm like, I want to drink no coffee, I want to be like no stimulants, no depressants, no, nothing, just water and fasting. The studies pretty consistently show that moderate coffee consumption tends to correlate pretty well to so many health benefits.

Gin Stephens: It's those polyphenols.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I feel like it's that thing that if you like it, it makes you feel good, you should embrace it because it has benefits. Then maybe, occasionally, if you want to do a coffee fast where you're not drinking coffee to see how you feel, the self-experimentation that can be fun. I think this is just me speaking to my own insecurities. If it works for you, keep drinking it.

Gin Stephens: I also want to point out one thing that Christina said, she said, “I'm not very good with water.” I want to point out that there's a lot of guilt associated with water consumption these days. It's like a spin that's out there in society that you must force yourself to chug water all the time. Think back, Melanie, you follow the paleo lifestyle back in paleo days, were they carrying around jugs of water all the time?

Melanie Avalon: I highly doubt it.

Gin Stephens: Doubtful. We don't need to think of water consumption as guilt. There's also a mistaken truth, which means it's not true. It's a mistaken truth that people will repeat over and over-- because you know how when people just say things over and over again, you begin to accept it as it must be true, because I've heard so many people say it. They say, “Coffee doesn't count as your water.” I've looked into that, I've researched it, that is not true. Coffee is mostly water. The reason that whole thought comes from the fact that coffee maybe slightly dehydrating, but it's not more dehydrating than the amount of the water that you had with it. It doesn't make you have negative water balance. Let's say you have a cup of coffee, it doesn't suck out more than a cup of water from your body. You're still on the plus side. Would you be more hydrated if it were 100% water instead of coffee? Maybe. It's not going to be like negative hydration. Stop with that guilt.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I had heard as well, what you just said. Now I'm just thinking-- okay, follow this train of thought, let me know what your thoughts are on this. I wonder, however, that aside-- because one of the things I talked about in the deuterium interview was the potential ability of a given water substance to hydrate ourselves. There are a lot of factors that affect whether or not water actually is taken up by ourselves and hydrates us. I wonder if depending on context, it could be possible that coffee is dehydrating if the caffeine acts as a diuretic, so it pulls water out of the cells but because of the nature of water or your body or whatever, you're not necessarily getting the hydration benefits from the water.

Gin Stephens: Everything I've read says that it does not have a net dehydrating effect. You know what I'm saying? It doesn't deplete you. It adds water to your body.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I have to revisit all of that.

Gin Stephens: I've researched that because people ask that all the time, and so I'll be like, “Let me look again, see what I see.” It always reinforces that everything I've found.

Melanie Avalon: What do they measure?

Gin Stephens: I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I'm wondering if they're measuring your-- I don't know the answer to this, I'm just thinking, is it they're measuring your total body water because that might not necessarily indicate hydration within the cell.

Gin Stephens: Well, here's the thing. We know that there are people out there that don't ever drink pure water by itself. Never. They always are drinking a fluid with something else. They don't drink water, they drink juice, they drink tea, they drink coffee, they drink soda. Those things are mostly water. They are liquids and they count. When you eat soup-- Actually, I've even read about-- you can actually get so much of your fluid intake through your foods, like that counts too. Like eating a carrot. Obviously, we're fasting during the day so that we would not be getting carrot fluid during your fast. But even just eating vegetation gives your body fluids.

Melanie Avalon: Most whole foods are mostly water, compared to processed foods which have no water. Even meat is extremely high in water. Which people, I think, find very shocking.

Gin Stephens: Well, our whole body is mostly water.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, exactly. I think we're 98% water.

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure, I can't remember. The point is, is that fluids are fluids. Don't be guilty about what your fluid is, whether it's coffee, whether it's tea, whether it's pure water. We're not that fragile. Some people have found that, “Hey, when I up my water intake, I do seem to have better weight loss.” All right, well, then nothing wrong with that, but stop with the guilt over it.

Melanie Avalon: I was just looking it up because I don't know why I have 98 in my head, something from our water conversation was 98% I the deuterium thing-- we're up to-- on average about 60%.

Gin Stephens: That's what I thought. I was thinking it was more like two-thirds.

Melanie Avalon: Muscles can be up to 79%.

Gin Stephens: It's been a long time since I've taught that lesson in the elementary science class but in my head, I was thinking two-thirds.

Melanie Avalon: Brain up to 85. I don't know what that 98 number was.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. Today's episode is brought to you by Prep Dish. You've heard us talk about Prep Dish before and you know we love it. What's better than having someone else map out your family's meals each week? Allison, the founder of Prep Dish is a busy mom and also a chef, nutritionist, and registered dietitian. With Prep Dish, you prep once and have your meals set for the entire week. I admit though, sometimes it's hard for some families to fit in time to meal prep on the weekend. Sometimes, you have a day packed with plans, and sometimes you just want to sit and drink your black coffee and watch the kids play. We're so excited to tell you about Prep Dish’s latest offering which solves that problem for you.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we read our next coffee question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Sarah. The subject is “Black Coffee.” She says, “Hi ladies, I'm about two weeks into IF. I'm trying to stick to 20:4. A couple times a week I end up at more like 16:8. I have found when I drink black coffee in the morning, I end up feeling so hungry, but when I skip it, I feel great. I love the taste and routine. So, I'm hoping that this is just part of the transition. Should I continue to skip it a few weeks, then try to introduce it again? I'm not adding anything to it. I grind my own whole beans, whole two shots of espresso, and add hot water to it. On a side note, I've been walking two to four miles each day while fasting and I love it. I listened to your podcast while I walk and it makes the time fly.”

Gin Stephens: All right. that's a great question. You're only about two weeks in. So, it's really, really hard to say whether it's the coffee or not, but you are right on target, Sarah, when you say that you need to experiment and see. You'll just need to try fasting without it. But give a solid try, a week, see what happens. Even maybe wait till your body adjusts because that is another factor the adjustment period. you'll just have to try it and see. Some people are awfully confused about coffee and whether it breaks a fast or not. Here are some of the common misconceptions people have. First of all, people think that when they drink coffee and then their stomach growls, that means it broke the fast. No. Stomach growling is a mechanical action that does not indicate your fast is broken. Also, some people think-- they'll test their blood glucose, and they'll say, “Oh gosh, every time I drink coffee, my blood glucose goes up. Coffee is breaking my fast.” Again, no, that's not what that means.

Coffee stimulates the liver to release stored glycogen. The glycogen is coming from inside you and being released into your bloodstream. Then, your body uses that glucose, that glycogen that was released and then your blood glucose goes back down. But remember, we want to stimulate or we want to deplete the glycogen in our liver over time, that's not a bad thing. Because once your body doesn't have that source of fuel from the liver, the glycogen, you can tap into your fat stores. Don't feel that blood glucose going up is a bad thing. Don't feel a stomach growl is a bad thing. Now, if you feel shaky or nauseous after coffee, that would be an indication that it's making you hungry, it might be dropping your blood glucose. Keep that in mind, keep those distinctions. A lot of people just are confused about all those concepts. What would you like to add, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I thought that was great. I just put on my-- I don't even know what number continuous glucose monitor we're on now, but I just put a new one on. For listeners, if you have a continuous glucose monitor, it can be really fascinating to see how your blood sugar responds to things like coffee and how it responds throughout the fast and all of that. But yes, I agree.

Gin Stephens: Totally fascinating. It really, really is.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if it's both caffeinated and decaf coffee that makes her feel hungry.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't know that. She said--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, it's espresso.

Gin Stephens: You could have decaf espresso.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, true. I always associate espresso with caffeine. That just might be something to try, one or the other. The opposite of whatever you're doing.

Gin Stephens: Yep. We are very much an experiment of one. All right. We have a question from Shelley, and this is subject, “Podcasts. How do you listen to so many?” Therefore, we know this was for Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] Because Gin does not listen to podcasts.

Gin Stephens: Even if people send them to me, they're like, “Please listen to them.” I don't want to listen to that one. I don’t have time.” Shelley says, “I started IF at the beginning of 2020, and pretty much stuck with the program for the entire year. This was the bright spot of my 2020. I lost 30 pounds and felt in control of my eating. I still have about 15 pounds to lose, but I'm confident that I can do it. My question, every time I hear Melanie say, ‘I listened to that on a podcast,’ which she says all the time. I always wonder what does she do when she's listening to all those hundreds of podcasts? I listen while I do my stretching, strength training, and while I do housework. If I sit down at night to listen, I fall asleep. It really is a burning question. What are you doing while you listen, Melanie? Thanks for all you ladies are doing in the IF world.”

Melanie Avalon: Thanks, Shelley, for your question. I basically have an audiobook or podcast going-- I'm just thinking about the phrase 24/7 because the phrase 24/7 means constantly, but technically, it's not 24/7, because we don't do anything 24/7 except be alive or breathe. I basically listen 24/7 and whenever I'm doing something that doesn't require concentration, so something I can multitask with, I just have it playing in the background all the time. Driving, exercising, working on website, blogs, it's just always playing. It's like the soundtrack of my life. If I need to focus, I listened to music instead.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I always listen to music, except for if I'm trying to focus, then I can't even listen to music.

Melanie Avalon: If it's something where I can't be distracted, I listen to instrumental music, movie scores.

Gin Stephens: I have to have quiet. I do much better with quiet.

Melanie Avalon: Have you ever tried the focus music with the specific binaural beats are like--

Gin Stephens: I've tried it even in my classroom with students. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Does that work for you, or no?

Gin Stephens: I do better in quiet. I just do. I do better in quiet.

Melanie Avalon: I go to the grocery store every single day because I must go to the grocery store every single day. On the way there and then while shopping and all that, I listen. There's so much to listen to. One of the most freeing decisions I made-- I feel this was right around the beginning of when the pandemic started, but I just had a moment where I was like you don't have to try to listen to every single podcast ever. If I saw any podcasts remotely related to something I wanted to know about, I would put it in this to-listen list, and it was getting so long and I was getting so overwhelmed. Then, finally, I just let it go and I was like, “It's okay. You don't have to listen to everything. You can listen to what you want to listen to.” That has been very freeing. I encourage listeners, if you have that trait at all, where you think you have to do all the things, you don't have to do all things.

Gin Stephens: That's very true.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so the next question comes from Hannah. The subject is, “What if I don't just know?” Hannah says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. You always say that if something breaks your fast, you'll know. My question is that if I don't have a reaction to my fast being accidentally broken, does that somehow indicate that my body isn't really getting into the fat-burning state? I've been doing IF for nine months with an average one meal a day of 21:3, and an occasional meal-less Monday, thanks, Roxy.”

Gin Stephens: Roxy is one of my amazing moderators. She leads a thread called meal-less Monday, where people who are doing an alternate daily fasting approach and fasting on Monday, they fast together in the thread and cheer each other on one. Then, Tuesday is their up day.

Melanie Avalon: Very cool.

Gin Stephens: She's pretty awesome. She's also been on Intermittent Fasting Stories, and I consider her to be a great friend.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, thank you, Roxy. She says, “I lost 20 pounds in the first four months that I am maintaining, which I am just delighted about. However, I still have at least 50 pounds to go and I've been stalled for several months. I know I'm insulin resistant because I was diagnosed with PCOS five years ago. Luckily, I was still able to have my two little ones. I recently had my fasting insulin tested and it was at 10. I keep telling myself that this plateau is just my body healing on the inside, but as I listened to your podcast, I'm also realizing that I don't have the same sensitivity to a broken fast that other IFers experience.

I've never felt shaky or hungry by accidentally licking a finger while cooking. I've had a sip of sweet tea before thinking it was unsweet and had no reaction. I've also tested myself by sipping something flavored on purpose and nothing happens. What could this mean? Am I not getting into the fasted or fat-burning state in the first place, and this is causing my plateau? Is my insulin resistance so severe that this is just going to be a very long road for me? Would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you so much for continuing to devote yourselves to spreading the word about IF. You two are truly a blessing to so many people.”

Gin Stephens: This is such a great question because it gets into the physiology of insulin resistance, high levels of insulin, and you've got the data there, which makes it, Hannah, your data shows beautifully what I'm going to explain. We've talked about chronic high levels of insulin, hyperinsulinemia are not good for our bodies. You've got PCOS, which is linked to high levels of insulin. Your insulin was tested, and it was at 10, which is higher than you want to have it when you're really metabolically in a good place. You know that you're insulin resistant. Hand in hand with high levels of insulin, we typically have high levels of blood glucose over time as well, because insulin resistance, it's that whole path you go down. Your insulin goes up, up, up, up, up over time. Then people generally start having more trouble with their blood glucose swinging up and being chronically high. Your A1c may be high when you have it tested. Then eventually, you may end up diagnosed as type 2 diabetic with the high blood glucose that's chronic.

Let's think about what would happen if we tasted something sweet and we were normal. My blood glucose is at normal levels during the fast. Melanie sees that with her CGM, I saw that when I wore mine for the Zoe test, my blood glucose was at a normal level. It ranged up and down a little bit, but it wasn't high, it wasn't low, it was just in that normal range up and down. Here it goes. If I had had something sweet, like a sip of sweet tea, and my body released insulin in response to that, the insulin would have cleared away some of my blood glucose and I would have had a crash. I would have felt shaky, I would have felt hungry. In fact, that's what happens to me when I have for example, Starbucks, that Nitro Cold Brew. It apparently tricks my brain into thinking that something sweet and creamy is coming, so I have a cephalic phase insulin response. I always get shaky and starving after having it. I think it makes my blood sugar crash because I've had an insulin response.

However, if my blood glucose was already high, and then I had whatever that is, the sweet tea, that Nitro Cold Brew, the sweet whatever it is, the licking your finger, my body can pump out a little insulin and bring down my blood glucose, but not enough for me to feel it as a low. I'm not going to be shaky because my blood glucose didn't go down into that shaky range. It just went down, maybe now it's a little more normal, if my blood glucose had been high before now it's normal, but I don't feel it. That's why you can't use the you'll know a thing. I actually don't always say that you'll know. In Fast. Feast. Repeat., I actually say this is not a foolproof way of telling. It just depends on what your blood glucose is doing. Did I explain that well enough, Melanie, did that make sense?

Melanie Avalon: That was beautiful.

Gin Stephens: I need people to be able to see me because I'm doing all these hand motions. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's funny, and just a reference for listeners for insulin levels, because Hannah said that her fasting insulin was at 10. If you'd like to learn all about insulin, like a deep, deep, deep dive, check out-- I'll put a link in the show notes to the interview that I did with Dr. Benjamin Bikman for his book, Why We Get Sick, really, really fascinating. That was actually I think, my first episode of the New Year and people just loved it. He talks about insulin in deep depth, and he recommends-- is it less than a 6, I think, insulin levels?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think 6 is really good for metabolic health. 10, I was going to say this, and I'm glad that you mentioned it, because I forgot. 10 is “normal.” If you got a 10 and somebody was looking at it, who didn't really understand ideal. They might say, “Oh, 10, that's normal, you're fine.” Well, also, insulin resistance is sadly normal these days. Just because you're in that normal range, doesn't mean you're at an optimal, healthy level. Yes, 6 is a good something to aim for, or below.

Melanie Avalon: He said, ideally, your blood insulin levels should be less than 6 micronutrients per milliliter of blood. 8 to 9 is the average for men and women, but it's not good to be average. In this case, a person with 8 actually has-- this is interesting, a person with 8 actually has double the risk of developing type 2 diabetes as a person with 5. He recommends less than 6, the technical average is 7 to 17. Greater than 18 is considered conventionally an issue. But like he said, less than 6.

Gin Stephens: Mine was less than 5.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, mine was, I think, 4 or something when I got it tested, which made me really happy. I was like, “What if it's really high?” I just want to echo what Gin said about really fabulous that Hannah has done this testing and actually has these markers. Just out of curiosity, Gin, so let's see, we got this question from somebody else. They actually didn't have PCOS and their insulin was really good. They had this experience-- I don't know, have you come across have people have this experience where they don't perceive being insulin resistant?

Gin Stephens: We're all different in so many ways. We all probably are likely to have a personalized insulin response as well. My husband has very low levels of insulin. They were in the twos. That is very low. Here's something about Chad that I've said before, he's never struggled with his weight. He's always been very, very thin, the biggest his waist ever got was 32, for a man that's really small. Having low, low levels of insulin, could he drink diet soda all day long and probably be fine? I don't know, but he probably pumps out less insulin than I do. I think that we're all different when it comes to how much insulin we pump out. He might be able to “get away with it.” Obviously, that wouldn't be recommended, because I think over time, it's not going to have a good effect long term. But it would explain why people have different responses because we really do pump out different levels of, I mean, everything.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, with insulin resistance, one of the main issues is your baseline insulin basically has to be higher to keep everything at the same place that another person would be at. That person's body who's insulin resistant, in a way, they are experiencing the same effect and the same body processes as a person with lower insulin levels, but just the bar is all set up way higher.

Gin Stephens: It inches its way up over time.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, it definitely does, slowly. Dr. Benjamin Bikman talks about that. It doesn't happen overnight. It's not like you wake up insulin resistant and you were fine the day before. It's a slow, insidious creep, which is nice, because that means there's a lot of time to reverse that.

Gin Stephens: Well, one of the best articles I ever read was the one that talked about how are we testing the wrong thing with A1c. I can't remember the name of the article, but it was written, I think, by a nurse practitioner, I can't remember, but it was, we're measuring A1c and it would be much better if we measured insulin levels, fasted insulin levels, because that's the precursor to A1c going up. So, if we tested fasting insulin levels, if someone had high fasted insulin, but a normal A1c, we know that's, like, “Well, we're on the rise up.” Eventually it follows along.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, A1c, it's a longer-term picture of how long and how often the extent to which your blood sugar levels are elevated, because when your blood sugars are elevated, it glycates your blood protein, so it's looking at how glycated are your blood proteins. The turnover for those is three months. It shows you in the past three months what has your overall blood sugar-- you don't get a blood sugar number, obviously, but it's showing how severe was your elevated blood sugar levels.

Gin Stephens: When you start fasting, it isn't going to affect your A1c that day, it takes time.

Melanie Avalon: Right, because like I just said, three months is how long it takes to-- I don't know if that's the half-life or the turnover. I'm not sure. I wish they did test insulin instead.

Gin Stephens: I want to get back to what Hannah said, “Is this just going to be a long road for me?” Well, yeah, it is more likely to be a long road, which I know is not what you want to hear. But if you know you have PCOS, you know you're insulin resistant, that is where strategy, more alternate daily fasting than one meal a day is what I would recommend. I would recommend more down days, maybe a 5:2 hybrid approach. Instead of just meal-less Monday, have Monday and Thursday. You're coming up with a hybrid approach, unless you want to do straight ADF, which is every other day, but that's pretty intense and it was a lot when I tried it. Of course, it's been years, five years ago since I did that. What I would probably start with for you is maybe Mondays and Thursdays, as meal-less days, you can also experiment with them as a down day with the 500-calorie down day approach, reread that chapter of Fast. Feast. Repeat. to remember, you know why to do it like that if you want or how to do it. Monday and Thursday down days, that would mean that Tuesday and Friday would be up days, those are metabolic boost days where you need at least two meals, three is also fine. Then you could do one meal a day the other days if you like it, that would be okay. Having those two longer fasts a week, that Monday and then that Thursday fast, 36 to 42 hours, two of those a week would really help bring down your insulin even more.

Melanie Avalon: One other thing I will draw attention to is-- this made me happy that she realized this, she said she knows she's insulin resistant because of her PCOS diagnosis. PCOS is considered-- definitely within the holistic health world, it's pretty much considered that insulin resistance is usually a, if not the primary cause of it. Actually, when I had Dr. Bikman on, I asked him, like, “Is it accepted now that that's basically the cause?” He said not conventionally, but usually basically that's the cause. I know a lot of women struggle with that. There’s been so many studies on-- I think when it comes to females and fertility and hormones and fasting, a lot of the studies on fasting females is often looking at PCOS. It's usually very beneficial, which does not come as a surprise, since we know how fasting affects our insulin sensitivity. It's very exciting.

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Gin Stephens: We have a question from Jessica. The subject is “Q and A.” She says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. I love your podcasts. Thanks for everything that you do. I was just listening to an interview with Robb Wolf on another podcast and he was talking about how important it is to get enough protein. He was basically saying that while it is really important that we don't eat around the clock, so maintaining some sort of daily fasting protocol, it's also really important to get enough protein in and it's not easy to do that if you fast too much. He specifically called out one meal a day as being incompatible with sufficient protein intake.”

Melanie Avalon: He hasn't met me. [laughs] Wait, he has met me. Oh, my goodness, he has met me. Never mind.

Gin Stephens: Well, he also doesn't follow my definition of one meal a day. Hmm. [laughs] I'm sure he probably is thinking it's 23:1 because that's what people are nowadays, that just has become the definition of it. Even though back in 2015, when I started my one meal a day group, we were the very first one meal a day group on Facebook. We've never considered it to be 23:1. Ideas take root and now pretty much the idea is one meal a day is 23:1. It's hard to get that out of everybody's minds if they're using that terminology everywhere. I will never consider it to be 23:1. I know you don't do 23:1. I bet you, he's talking about 23:1. I have never one time in my life suggested that everybody do 23:1. I just want to say that.

Melanie Avalon: I feel this happens too often where ideas get crystallized about certain things and then they they're just spit out as fact. We were talking about this earlier in the show. Just today in my group, somebody was asking about one meal a day and then somebody commented and was like, they said, “You can't lose weight on one meal a day. It's just for maintenance.” Then they quoted somebody. I'm just like, “I don't know.”

Gin Stephens: That's just suddenly spouted out as truth. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's why actually one of the only rules of our group is phrase everything as opinions. It's so important with all of this that we say, I think it's the case that this is the way it is, because we realize we don't know anything and it's so easy to just spit out something as a fact and then once one person hears it, everybody hears it.

Gin Stephens: All those tens of thousands of people that have been in my groups that have lost weight with one meal a day, they didn't really lose weight. Okay. No, they did. They did lose weight. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I do not all like censorship or anything like that, but I do debate if somebody says something as a like straight-up fact, even if it's a fact I agree with, it's really important to me that we add, “I think,” because all it takes is people reading things as facts and then they run with it. It's like the telephone game where you whisper one thing, and then it changes. So, tangents. Shall we finish her question?

Gin Stephens: Yes. She goes on to say, “I found this a bit concerning as I have been fasting for almost a year now. For the last several months, I've been doing 20:4, which is pretty much one meal a day.” Well, yeah, as Melanie and I define it, yes. Maybe not as Robb Wolf defines it, that would be really important to know, maybe he was talking about 23:1, and I suspect he was. “I know you both follow a loose one meal a day protocol and I, of course, know how much Melanie appreciates the paleo lifestyle and Robb Wolf is a proponent of it. I thought you guys might have some helpful insights. Thanks again and keep up the awesome work you do. Jessica from Portland.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Jessica. Thank you for the question. Yes, I'm a Robb Wolf fangirl, if there ever was one. For those who are not familiar, he wrote the New York Times bestselling which Gin is also a New York Times bestseller. He wrote The New York Times bestselling book, The Paleo Solution. He also wrote Wired to Eat. His most recent book called Sacred Cow, which is actually-- I had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast for that show. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. Yes, he is basically one of the founding father figures of the paleo movement. He is big, big, big on the role of protein and the importance of protein and diet. We actually talked about this in that interview that I did, I brought him on for Sacred Cow. The interview was about the environmental impacts, and the implications of having or not having animals and regenerative agriculture and the future of our environment. One of the most fascinating conversations and books I've ever read.

If I had them on the show, I obviously going to ask them all the other things. We did talk a lot about protein. It's funny, because, yes, a lot of people will say that you can't get enough protein in a short eating window. Actually, when I had Cynthia Thurlow on the show, she as well said, especially for women, that she finds this often to be a problem. I actually do think this might be a problem for a lot of women, because they don't have the problem that I have, which is I could eat-- I have the opposite problem. I can eat so much protein, animal protein which is the most complete form and dense. I can eat pounds and pounds of it easily. I don't have the experience of struggling to eat enough of it. When I aired the episode with Cynthia Thurlow-- listeners, if you're interested in this, also listen to that episode because we dive even deeper into protein. We did talk about this how much protein especially women need and how it might be a problem with fasting.

When I posted that episode, I was actually really surprised that that was the thing that my audience seemed to identify with, or it really hit home with him the most because I do a weekly giveaway in my Facebook group where you can comment what you learned from the episode and so many people said that hearing that about protein intake was a really big thing for them. I think we already said this, but no, I do not think one meal a day is incompatible with sufficient protein. I don't think that at all.

That said, I think there's nuances to it. I think some people if you're struggling to eat enough protein, which I recommend probably one gram per pound of body weight and that's on the high side compared to the conventional recommendations, because the conventional recommendations, the standard American recommendations, I think it's one gram, I could be wrong-- but I think it's one gram per pound of lean body mass, which ends up being less, but I like to aim for one gram per pound of body weight. I personally have no problem achieving that. If you do find that you can't really get enough protein in your one meal a day, I think there's nothing wrong with having a longer eating window to accommodate for that.

Also, if you're specifically looking to build muscle, you don't have to have protein throughout the day to build muscle to support muscle. Not at all. We talked about this so many times on the show. That said, if you're looking to make substantial muscle gains, I think there is a benefit to having punctuated times a protein intake set apart, because there is a cap to the amount of muscle growth that you can do at any one time. If you want to get a growth stimulus twice throughout the day, you'd probably need to have two separate protein meals, that might be more accommodated by a 16:8 approach.

Long story short, I think protein intake is key, key, key. Emphasizing it is super important for health, for bone health even. For weight loss, it's a highly thermogenic food. It supports body composition, it supports health, we need protein. Yes, I think you can get it in one meal a day, but if you're not, definitely be open to lengthening the window.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think that's great. Also, don't forget our bodies are recycling protein during the clean fast. That's one of the things that happens with autophagy. Not all of our protein intake has to come from food you're putting into your mouth, just keep that in mind. One thing I love, and I actually learned it from you, Melanie, since you read more about it is Ted Neiman’s protein leverage hypothesis, which makes so much sense, because I don't listen to podcasts. I've never heard him on a podcast say it, but I've read about it since you mentioned it.

Anybody that's read anything I've written or listened to me on this podcast knows that I'm a big believer that our bodies communicate with us and want us to have what we need. We get signals like hunger, when we're not sending what we need to our bodies, if we're not sending enough nutrients down. The protein leverage hypothesis is that basically, protein is a need that we will meet and our bodies will say keep eating, keep eating, keep eating until you've met that need. I think that's true. Just with myself, I think it's really true. I think it's true for lots of nutrients, but protein specifically, because it's something we really, really need. I don't always eat meat. I had meat last night, let me think, am I going to have meat tonight? Yes, I'm going to have meat tonight, then the next night I won’t because I'm thinking about the meals I have in my kitchen, with my Green Chef meals.

Anyway, with the meals that I have coming up that I have in my kitchen, I'm not going to have meat every night. But if I go several nights in a row, and I don't have meat, maybe a week with no meat, my body is like have some meat. I think my body lets me know when I need more protein. Or maybe I'll feel like throwing eggs on something, or I'm just not satisfied. I really think it's true for me. My body lets me know when I need more meat or more protein, I also get a lot of protein through beans. I wouldn't worry about it. Unless you feel like you're hungry, if you are not satisfied, it might be that you don't have enough protein and consider having more.

Melanie Avalon: I 100% agree with the protein leverage hypothesis theory. I am not full in my one meal day until my body I think has received the protein that it needs. It's so interesting people often posit fat as being super key for satiety, but it doesn't create the same satiety effects that protein does, for example, it doesn't encourage longtime satiety. According to at least Ted's book, protein is the only macronutrient that encourages both short term and long-term satiety, sorry, that's a tangent, but I think we think protein is very important. It all comes back to what we always say, which is N of 1 and find what works for you. I'd be really interested to know what interview, Jessica that you were listening to where he said that, I just would like to hear what he said. Feel free to send it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that would be great to know.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions to the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. I got sad because I checked to see when this was airing and I thought maybe this would have aired before Valentine's Day, but this will be after Valentine's Day. Friends, if you're not on my Instagram, get on it, because on Valentine's Day, I'm giving away so many epic things on Instagram.

This week we're doing a signed book giveaway for Dr. Alan Christianson’s The Thyroid Rest Diet. Yesterday, I put up a giveaway for $3,000 worth of blood tests from InsideTracker give away completely free. Then on Valentine's Day, Apollo Neuro, the sound wave therapy device that I have, that I'm obsessed with, they asked if I wanted to give away two on Valentine's Day.

Gin Stephens: Like for a couple?

Melanie Avalon: Because they were like, “Do you want to do giveaway?” I was like, “Sure,” they're like, “Do you want to do for Valentine's Day?” I was like, “Sure.” They're like, “Do you want to give away two?” I was like, “Sure.” [laughs] Basically, friends get it on my Instagram, because there're so many things.

Gin Stephens: If people, they're going to miss it, no, it's too late, because this will already come out, but you join today because you never know what's coming out tomorrow.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I'm on the giveaway rollercoaster now.

Gin Stephens: I'm not going to give you anything, you can look at my cat.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] I know. Gin is not the giveaway. [laughs] You could give away signed copies of your book.

Gin Stephens: I could.

Melanie Avalon: I give away a lot of Beautycounter on my Instagram.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to show you my cat, and if I do something fun with beans, [laughs] and that's pretty much it.

Melanie Avalon: I think it's so fun. Check us out on Instagram. You can find all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Feb 07

Episode 199: Personalized Diet Plans, Combination Fasting, Infrared Blankets, Toothbrushing, Kids Eating Habits, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Are You Ready For Personalized Diet Advice? Here's Zoe!

Welcome to Episode 199 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: Katie - PLEASE HELP!

Listener Q&A: Nancy - Combination of IF lifestyles

Listener Q&A: Frances - Infrared blankets?

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IF Biohackers: Intermittent Fasting + Real Foods + Life: Join Melanie's Facebook Group For A Weekly Episode GIVEAWAY, And To Discuss And Learn About All Things Biohacking! All Conversations Welcome!

Listener Q&A: samantha - Trying to catch up as fast as I can

Listener Q&A: Timothea - Changing my eating window on the weekends/menopause/bloating

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 199 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get free electrolyte supplements, some of which are clean fast approved, all developed by none other than Robb Wolf. Have you been struggling to feel good with low carb, paleo, keto, or fasting? Have you heard of something called the keto flu? Here's the thing. The keto flu is not actually a condition. Nope. Keto flu just refers to a bundle of symptoms, headaches, fatigue, muscle cramps and insomnia that people experience in the early stages of keto dieting.

Here's what's going on. When you eat a low-carb diet, your insulin levels drop. Low insulin, in turn, lowers the production of the hormone aldosterone. Now, aldosterone is made in the kidneys and it helps you retain sodium. So, low aldosterone on a keto diet makes you lose sodium at a rapid rate. Even if you are consciously consuming electrolytes, you might not be getting enough. In particular, you need electrolytes, especially sodium and potassium in order for nerve impulses to properly fire. Robb Wolf, who as you guys know is my hero in the holistic health world, worked with the guys at Ketogains to get the exact formulation for electrolyte supplements to formulate LMNT Recharge, so you can maintain ketosis and feel your best. LMNT Recharge has no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no junk. They're used by three Navy SEALs teams. They are the official hydration partner to Team USA Weightlifting. They're used by multiple NFL teams and so much more.

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I am loving LMNT and I think you guys will too. Again, this is completely free. You have nothing to lose. Just go to drinklmnt.com/if podcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IF Podcast. And I'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in. Are you concerned about aging? Well, thankfully, fasting is super incredible for its anti-aging benefits. It activates genes in your body called sirtuins, which repair your body and help extend lifespan. Also, during the fast, your body can clean up a lot of harmful chemicals which may be taxing your detoxification systems. In fact, the reason people go gray is because their detox systems start producing a lot of hydrogen peroxide when dealing with toxins. Do you know where a lot of those chemicals come from? Your skincare and makeup. As it turns out, there are 1000s of compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup that Europe has banned due to their toxic nature and the US has banned less than 10. When you put these on your skin every single day through your skincare and makeup, you're adding to your body's burden and likely aging your skin faster.

Thankfully, you can easily clean up your skincare with a company called Beautycounter. They make incredible products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about every single ingredient that you put on. They also have an amazing anti-aging line called Countertime. Friends, this is a game changer. It's full of active ingredients which nourish and support your skin, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, and support a beautiful glow. It also has a safe alternative to retinol so you can get all of the anti-aging benefits of retinol without any of the toxic effects of retinol. Because, yes, that stuff is toxic. Guys, put it away now.

You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. If you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. Also, definitely get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away so many free things on that list. So definitely check it out.

Lastly, if you anticipate making safe skincare a part of your future, just like Gin and I do? Definitely become a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for safe skincare. You get 10% back on all of your purchases, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that costs way more than the price of the membership. It's completely worth it. So friends, are you fasting clean inside and out? You can with Beautycounter. Again, that link is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 199 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am doing great. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I am good. How is the weather?

Gin Stephens: Well, it's cold. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: I also want to talk about my inability to track my food on an app.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. How is that going?

Gin Stephens: Seven days. I made it seven days.

Melanie Avalon: Did you stop?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: You gave up?

Gin Stephens: Okay. The give up is the wrong word.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: Rejected the experience. Better way of putting it. No, I just cannot track using an app. Man, it was fascinating. I'm so glad I did it. I would 100% do it again, and I would 100% recommend it to everybody, but I just can't do it. I'm going to say this though, it is amazing to eat according to those recommendations if I needed to lose weight, if I was struggling with that, if I had health issues, I would 100% follow it. I still don't know that I'd like to put things into an app, but I learned a lot. Even in those seven days, I learned a lot about how to tweak what I'm eating to fit within their parameters. I know exactly what foods would work well for me now. Of course, it's beans, beans, and more beans. With lots of veggies. It's beans, it's veggies. I can have fat. I just can't stack it too close together if I'm trying to follow their guidelines, that sort of thing. Did I talk to you about my ketone level while I was doing it?

Melanie Avalon: I don't think so.

Gin Stephens: Oh, my God. I have the breath ketone meter that we got, you should try out, from Biosense. Every day, after I'd been doing it for a couple days, after I think two days of following this, I was blowing the highest level of ketones you can blow, like it said high. When I got to hour 14-- I mean, I was like not that far into the fast blowing high.

Melanie Avalon: It sounds like you're on a really high carb diet.

Gin Stephens: Yes, I was eating really high carbs, and I wasn't even really succeeding with the low fat because every day I got a message that my score was lowered due to the quantity of fat. I can tell you, for example, I wasn't low carb or low fat really. Day six, for example, I got a really good score for the day. 87 out of 100. I had 114 grams of carbs and 50 grams of fat. That's not low carb, and it's not low fat. I was blowing huge ketones. The day before that, I had 136 grams of carbs and 66 grams of fat, 72 grams of protein, 76 grams of fiber. The day after eating 136 grams of carbs and 66 grams of fat and 72-73 grams of protein, I had 1700 calories that day, and I was blowing high ketones by hour 13-14. It blows my mind.

Melanie Avalon: That's really cool.

Gin Stephens: It really is so cool.

Melanie Avalon: Even though you're not using the app, are you going to exist within this dietary paradigm for--?

Gin Stephens: No. Here's why, because I'm healthy, and I'm happy and I like to just eat food when I want to eat food. I'm going to keep in my mind, if I ever found my Shapa turning gray meaning, I was gaining weight, I would be, like, “Oop, let me think back if I've been having too many refined carbs.” I don't score high on refined carbs. One day I ate a baked potato with butter, and my score was high for that meal. Baked potato with butter and beans, and I think avocado, too, but then later, I couldn't find any fats. They're like, “Sorry, you already ruined it.” I didn't say it like that, but it was already too much fat for the day for me. I had a hard time finding other things. If I found I was gaining weight, then I would 100% use what I learned about my body not clearing fat well. That right there was worth the cost of admission. Learning, yes, too much fat is inflammatory for my body, and I always felt that. That was huge, that confirmation. Knowing that beans worked well for me, that's huge.

Melanie Avalon: I guess you probably would have said before, you don't have like ApoE4 or anything like that, do you?

Gin Stephens: I don't know. It's been so long since I've looked at any of that stuff.

Melanie Avalon: That'd be interesting.

Gin Stephens: My genetic stuff?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think the other one is the FAO gene, what is that?

Gin Stephens: Is that the one that they say that you developed as we became farmers, is that the one that lets you eat carbs, processed carbs better?

Melanie Avalon: No, I think the FAO gene is also related to fatty acid oxidation.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't have them all in my brain as far as what they are.

Melanie Avalon: The ones they throw around a lot are the APOE variants because that's related to saturated fat and Alzheimer's. Then, FAO is something about fat. I just wonder-- It sounds like that. I'd be curious, if you ever look up your data, what you have on that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that would be interesting. It's been so long, like I said, I don't know. Anyway, I'm so glad I did it. For the same reason, I stopped weighing myself, but I could do the Shapa with no problem and see my color, the same reason tracking food. There was one day when I tracked my food, and I was like, “I haven't had enough calories.” [laughs] And saw, ate more food. I'm like, “Wait, now I'm really full. Why'd I eat that?” Then other days, I'm like, “That was a lot.” Anyway, I don't like the tracking, but it's so valuable. A week was long enough for me to know how to combine the foods. If I wanted to really eat what was ideal for me, I could do that.

Melanie Avalon: Are they collecting the data?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Are they going to be upset you're not using the app?

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, no, no, they're not collecting data from this part. No, no, no. That's the first part of the study. They're collecting data from that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, they're not collecting data from--?

Gin Stephens: I don't know, well, they got a week of data. But I'm not wearing a CGM for this part. You only wear the CGM during the initial part. The only data they have is the food that I ate for a week.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, gotcha.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It's exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is very exciting. I actually set up-- if you go to ginstephens.com/zoe, I have a link to it there. You can find out more and you can join yourself. Even if you don't want to, don't let me say the tracking part, you don't have to track your food long term. It just gives you the idea of what would work.

Melanie Avalon: For people who haven't done the study.

Gin Stephens: They will start completely from the beginning. The way it's set up right now, you join, you pay a certain amount, but they divided up over six months, whether you do-- they have one plan, you do the testing, they send everything to you. The CGM, if you're eligible.

Melanie Avalon: But this is different than the study that you did.

Gin Stephens: It's all connected.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. My mind is being blown. Okay.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's the same people. It's the PREDICT people. Yeah, it's Dr. Tim Spector and his group are part of the Zoe app too. It's all the same thing. Yes. It's all based on their PREDICT 3 studies, I was part of PREDICT 3, which I guess everyone is if they opt in. You can opt in or opt out. If you decide you want to do it, if you opt in with Zoe, you're opting into the PREDICT 3 study, I guess. Maybe it's PREDICT 4, I have no idea. You opt in and if you qualify, they send you as part of the whole thing, it’s the same price, they send you the CGM and also where you do your poop sample and the muffins that you have to eat. They send you a box with food in it, that that food and then you have to test your blood after you eat those different muffins that I've talked about before. They see how your body clears the sugar from your blood. They see how your body clears the fat from your blood, which as I said, I did not clear it very well. Then, they take all that data, especially the poop sample, that's really important, and about six weeks later, you get your report. At that time, you get four months with the app. You can use the app, whether you want to or not. Don't feel like a failure. If you're like me, you're like, “I just can't talk about food.” But you have up to four months. And then I think you can subscribe to the app going forward if you want to, you can continue it past the four months. They also have a plan that costs more, but if you do the higher plan, you actually get to work with a nutritionist that you get to talk to and they guide you through it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah. I didn't realize. I was thinking this whole time that you did the study and then the Zoe app was something they were using to monitor and then people could use the Zoe app for their own dietary choices. I didn't realize it was--

Gin Stephens: No, everybody has different numbers in their Zoe app. That's what’s so cool. A couple of the moderators in my group, they went through it right when I did, and they have different scores for the same exact foods. They can put a meal together in their Zoey app and get a totally different score than I get on mine. Isn't that interesting?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Like the moderator, Roxy, she clears fat great, so she can have more fat, according to her Zoe app. I'm like, “That's not fair. That's not fair.” [laughs] because it made me start thinking diety things. I'm also really good at getting a high score. Then I'm like, “Wait a minute, I just want to eat a meal.” Again, if I were struggling with losing weight, oh my gosh, this is the golden ticket. The way that my ketones went up, oh my gosh.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to have to look into this. To do it-- Oh, you have to eat those muffins.

Gin Stephens: Well, you do have to eat the muffins. Yes, you otherwise you eat what you normally would eat.

Melanie Avalon: How many days do you eat muffins?

Gin Stephens: It was one day of muffins.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's all one day.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you do all the muffins in one day. You eat them, then you wait some time-- or it might have been two days. I can't remember, now I'm all-- I can't remember, isn’t that sad? It felt like a lot of muffins. It was either one day of muffins or two days of muffins, but I think it was one. You ate them, then you waited and then you ate some more.

Melanie Avalon: Do you have to do it at a certain time? Or could I make--

Gin Stephens: Better do it in the morning.

Melanie Avalon: Will it know if I do it like in my one meal a day instead?

Gin Stephens: You have to give it a certain number of hours, and you have to enter the time. So yes, it will know, [laughs] because you have to scan it and enter a time and just tell yourself you're doing scientific research. You're eating for science.

Melanie Avalon: I'll let this stew over in my mind a little bit.

Gin Stephens: It was really worth doing, and I'm really glad that I did. They know so much more about the gut than they did even when I had my gut analyzed in 2017 with the American Gut Project, which also is partnered with the British Gut Project, which is also Tim Spector. He's the main guy doing this in the world.

Melanie Avalon: What's the link for that for listeners?

Gin Stephens: Go to ginstephens.com/zoe. Then from there, there's information and you can figure out what to do. But man, it's valuable, such a valuable tool. Again, like I said, if I were struggling with weight loss and couldn't figure out why I wasn't losing weight and struggling, not feeling great, I tell you, I was so full the whole time. It's just the tracking, that's really--

Melanie Avalon: Not your cup of tea.

Gin Stephens: Not my cup of tea. Yeah. I've just been living in freedom for so long with the whole intermittent fasting, eating, how my body feels great, whatever feels right to me, that it's hard for me to track on an app. Even if you don't want to track on the app at all, I would encourage everyone to do it, at least for a week once you get your results. That was very valuable.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. Well, for listeners, the show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode199 and we'll put links to all of that there.

Gin Stephens: Did you have anything new going on? You haven't shared anything or, I talked a lot. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm good.

Gin Stephens: All right. Well, we have got a question from Katie, and the subject is “Please Help.” She says, “Good afternoon, ladies. First of all, I love listening to you both on the podcast. I have also read Delay, Don't Deny, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I need help, and I am having a hard time isolating individuals in my similar situation. All right, be prepared for some rambling.” That was Katie talking, not me. [laughs] Just to be clear. That would be rude if I said that, but that was Katie. All right.

She said, “I started IF three and a half weeks ago after reading Dr. Fung’s Obesity Code. I immediately fell in love because of the ease of delaying and not denying. I was hoping it would be my trick to lose my 15 pounds of squish and I lost the first 7 within my first 10 days. Then it stopped. For two weeks, I have not lost any more weight. I go up two pounds and down two pounds, but never below that 7 pounds I initially lost. I do eat whatever I want during my window. My typical window is 4 to 8 PM.” I don't even want to read the rest of this, Melanie, I just want to say, Katie, you're in the first 28 days. That is not the time to expect weight loss. I'm going to keep reading it, but [laughs] I want to say that right now. All right. So back to this.

“I do eat whatever I want during my window. My typical window is 4 PM to 8 PM as I do not want to miss suppers with my family. I'm married and have three kids and I am unwilling to lose the supper family time. Okay, back to my problem. I am concerned that my issue was stalling out is my running. I am an avid long-distance runner and was nervous about trying IF because I'm so accustomed to eating during my exercise. I run 7 miles every weekday and 13 to 15 on the weekend. Most runs are first thing early in the morning. On my three workdays, I do 7 miles on my lunch hour. I do feel pretty good during my runs despite being fasted. I do feel a bit slower but no weakness or inability to complete the workout. Could my exercise be the reason I cannot lose these last 8 pounds? The exercise is not new. I've had the same routine for years.

My question is, should I give up on IF? Should I clean up my diet in the four-hour window? I do not want to lose muscle or jeopardize my running. I am so hungry all the time. I cannot imagine eating less. Please let me know what you think. Thanks for reading. Again, I have spent lots of hours listening to you girls during my runs. I feel like I know you both. Happy Wednesday. Katie.”

Melanie Avalon: All right. Not Wednesday for us, but Happy Sunday, Katie. Yeah, I love this question from Katie. I know Gin already weighed in with some thoughts.

Gin Stephens: I’ve got so much to say, I'm sitting on my fingers.

Melanie Avalon: Do you want to go first? You can.

Gin Stephens: Can I?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, you can. Please do.

Gin Stephens: All right, Katie. You said you read The Obesity Code. I want you to get Fast. Feast. Repeat. because it doesn't sound like you've read that. What you said, you read Delay, Don’t Deny, but not Fast. Feast. Repeat. Then, I want you to flip to the chapter on the 28 Day FAST Start and you have my permission to read that first. In the 28 Day FAST Start, I very, very clearly say weigh on day zero, then don't weigh again until day 29. You're not weighing during those first 28 days, that's four weeks of letting your body settle in. Then on day 29, you start weighing every day. Then once a week, you calculate a weekly average, and you only compare the weekly averages. If you've already lost 7 pounds in three and a half weeks, first of all, that isn't going to be 7 pounds of fat, because we don't lose fat that quickly. But that would still be pretty remarkable. That's an amazing amount to have gone down. I imagine it's fluid, water weight kind of thing, but that is a lot to lose within the first 10 days. That's not nothing. I'm sure you've lost some fat. But also, sounds like you are doing a whole lot of physical activity. You also need to really turn right to the Scale Schmale chapter of Fast. Feast. Repeat. and you're going to not want to even rely on the scale at all.

Actually, you only want to lose 8 pounds, you would be a good candidate for smashing your scale with a hammer and never getting on a scale again for the rest of your life, because if you're doing this much exercise, and fasting, and exercising during the fasted state, you're going to burn fat and build lean muscle like crazy. I want you to use measurements and progress photos to track your progress, not the scale. No, you don't need to worry about troubleshooting, you're not having trouble. It feels like you are because you're probably used to a “diet plan” where you see slow and steady weight loss for a while or maybe fast weight loss and it's slow and steady. Then, you plateau and then you regained the weight. This is not like that at all. This is not like anything you've done before. Get all those expectations out of your mind.

I really think that Fast. Feast. Repeat. could help you because you need to understand what's going to be going on in your body and why the scale is not going to be your best measure. But it's way too soon to tweak anything. Even if you had been steadily gaining weight for three and a half weeks, I would not be worried. That's why I don't want you to weigh at all at first.

For anybody listening, it is not the time to troubleshoot this early. I'm serious, and I promise it. All right, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: I loved that.

Gin Stephens: Also, she says she's hungry all the time, well, then eat, Katie, eat more food. You should not be so hungry all the time.

Melanie Avalon: The only thing I will say because I thought that was wonderful, the only thing I'll say is this is not her situation, but let's say this is still the situation, she's not losing weight and it's been three months, the thing I would focus on, like she says, is, “cleaning up the diet.” I don't really like the word ‘clean’ but what Gin and I were just talking about right before this question, the magic of finding the foods that work for your body. That's what I would turn to first, rather than giving up on IF or potentially blaming the exercise as the cause. If you have not made any concentrated tweaks to your diet, there is massive amount of potential that can be made doing so.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. She also might need a longer window with that amount of physical activity. Maybe a four-hour window is not long enough for that. If you're doing seven miles, if you're running seven miles on your lunch hour, you're going to need more fuel than you could possibly get. I couldn't get enough fuel in a four-hour window. I have a hard time getting enough fuel in a short window and I run zero miles. Fuel that body, open that window up littler wider, Katie. Really, if you'll send me your address, I'll drive over to your house and I'll bring my hammer, and I'll smash your scale, [laughs] because it's not going to be a good measure, especially 8 pounds. You may even gain weight but shrink.

Melanie Avalon: You know what I was just thinking about?

Gin Stephens: What?

Melanie Avalon: You saying that. I wonder out of all of our listeners, like which listener lives closest to me and closest to you.

Gin Stephens: Well, my next-door neighbor listens. Remember that story when we moved?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: She was a listener. [laughs] Hello, neighbor. They're great. We have great neighbors.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if anybody in my apartment complex listens.

Gin Stephens: That’d be funny.

Melanie Avalon: That’d be crazy.

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Melanie Avalon: Well, shall we move on to the next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: This question is from Nancy. I have a sidenote something, I have to say. Were you aware? Did we talk about this that Nancy Drew, Carolyn Keene was not one author?

Gin Stephens: I did know that. I don't know if we talked about it, but I knew it. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I'm currently reading another Melanie, Melanie Dale, she has a book called something like, I think it's Calm the H*ck Down. It's about parenting. I'm bringing her on my show, even though I know nothing about parenting, but it's not my expertise, and so I'm going to feel super awkward in the interview, but their publicist pitched it to me, and I asked my audience if they would like that episode, and everybody was like, “Yes.” So, we're doing it. In any case, I learned in her book that Nancy Drew, Carolyn Keene is not one author.

Gin Stephens: That's true. So many things are not true. There is no Little Debbie. [laughs] Captain Kangaroo was not a kangaroo. Do you know who that is?

Melanie Avalon: Captain Kangaroo? I know the cereal box. Right?

Gin Stephens: Captain Kangaroo is a TV show in the 70s.

Melanie Avalon: He wasn’t a kangaroo?

Gin Stephens: No one thought he was a kangaroo, that was just a joke. [laughs] Sorry. No, it's not a good [unintelligible [00:28:23].

Melanie Avalon: No, but you said Captain Kangaroo, and I initially got this image of a cereal box with a kangaroo on it. Oh, because of Cap’n Crunch, that's why.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. That's Cap’n Crunch.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so on that note, we have a question from Nancy. The subject is “Combination of IF Lifestyles.” Nancy says, “Hi, Gin. Hi, Melanie.” This is the first time we've got two separate--

Gin Stephens: Maybe.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe. She says, “I recently discovered your podcast and started listening to it from the beginning. I'm in Episode 30. I've already read your books and did some research about IF which looks like everything I've been looking for. I'm also new with this lifestyle. I got 20 pounds to lose, but a lot of time. Above everything, I want to be safe. I started doing 16:8, maintained it for a month and upgraded to 18:6, I have already maintained it per month, I would like to switch to 5:2 combined with 16:8. I'm very busy with college, so I've noticed that it's easier for me to fast an entire fast day, 36 hours and would like to do it twice a week, but at the moment, I don't feel good eating all day long, three times a day. So, the other days I would like to do 16:8. I've read in a book that in 5:2, it is strictly prohibited to overdo the fast. I'm worried about harming my body. What do you think? Is it safe for me to combine 5:2 and 16:8? Or, if I do 5:2, must I eat three times the other five days? Thank you very much in advance. I really appreciate your work. You're my inspiration.”

Gin Stephens: All right. Well, Nancy, good news. No, I don't believe that it is prohibited for you to do 16:8 on the days following your full fast. In fact, in Fast. Feast. Repeat., I talk about this. You'll be doing a hybrid approach, like I talk about in Fast. Feast. Repeat. In Fast. Feast. Repeat., I do make it very, very clear that after a longer fast, like a 36-hour fast, for example, that you're talking about, you do want to have an up day. For an up day, you just want to make sure that you're not restricting. Our rule of thumb is eat at least two meals, three would be fine. What you don't want to do is fast for 47 hours, eat one meal, start fasting again 47 more hours, no. That's not ADF, that would be every other other day or something. [laughs] We're not doing that. If you want to do, a down day with the full fast day and then the next day have at least two meals, you're going to have that in an eight-hour window. That sounds fine. Then if the next day was another 16:8 day, that's great. I don't see any over restriction happening there. Unless you're also really super dieting within that 60 days, which we wouldn't recommend, you want to give your body the signal that there's plenty of food. It's absolutely fine to combine two down days a week and the other days being 16:8. Sounds good to me. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I think you answered the question.

Gin Stephens: As long as you have an up day after every down day, and we say at least 6 to 8 hours for an up day, 12 is fine as well, but I think six is a little short, but 8 to 12 should be fun.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. All right. Shall we move on to the next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes. All right. The next question is from Frances and the subject is Infrared Blankets. “Hi ladies, I've been listening to your show from almost the beginning. I've been enjoying a daily eating window of about four to six hours a day since 2018. I have loved implementing a lot of your life hacking advice along the way, which has helped with a lot of issues like sleep, mindset, and inflammation. I have all three of the BLUblox glasses, and I love my infrared device, not to mention the life-changing P3-OM enzymes and magnesium supplements I use daily after learning about them on your show. I have found that near-infrared light helps with inflammation, arthritis, scars, sinuses, etc. I am 46 and do hot yoga about three to four days a week. I just heard about the infrared blankets. Is this legit? I love my small unit, but I would love to lay down in a warm blanket that would treat my whole body. I look to you for vetting everything from diets to products, and admire the hours of research that you put into this forum.

You ladies are delightful, and I can't imagine my life without your curiosity and wisdom. Please keep on keeping on. Can you imagine what we will learn even five years from now? Thank you for everything you do. Sincerely, Frances.” And you know what? She's right. A lot can change in five years. When I was talking to the Zoe people after I went through it and we were going over my results, I talked about that my gut looked different than it had in 2017. They're like, “Well, in 2017, we couldn't see what we can see now. We can see so much more now.” They know more now than they did just in 2017.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and to date this podcast, but five years ago was 2016. Think about how much has changed.

Gin Stephens: I know.

Melanie Avalon: So many fronts since then. All right, so I love this question from Frances, and I'm so glad all the things are helping. The infrared blankets, I personally don't recommend them, and the main thing for me is I actually get nervous about the EMF exposure, putting that directly onto your body. I would recommend if you're looking-- well, this is not the same thing as a blanket at all. The infrared therapy treatment that I do-- there's two things here she mentions-- I'm assuming it's probably a Joovv device, the infrared light that she uses because the Joovv device lets out red and near-infrared light therapy and that doesn't heat you up or anything like that. It's for treating things like she said, like inflammation and joint and muscle pain, and it can help your skin, it can help your mood, the color of the red light. The heat aspect comes from far-infrared wavelengths. That would be what would be found in an infrared blanket. Also, in Sunlighten saunas, for example, which by the way, Gin, how's it going with your Sunlighten sauna?

Gin Stephens: Oh, I love it. I love it so much.

Melanie Avalon: I saw your picture today.

Gin Stephens: I love it. Two days this week, I didn't have time to get in there. One day, I had to go to the dentist at 8:30 in the morning, I had to shower, I don't want to get in after I've showered. Then another day, I had a 9 AM podcast and I like to shower before I'm on the camera with people. Those two days I didn't get in and I was so sad. Oh, then one other day I didn't get in, yesterday because I was getting ready to get in, and my husband said, “Let's go--” I can't remember what he want-- we went and did something. I'm like, “But I was going to get in sauna now.”

Melanie Avalon: It feels so good. Of course, you and I have completely opposite routines. It's like the last thing I do. Well, before I eat-- It's the last thing I do every day before stopping work and all of that. I still read in it and so I'm still doing work in it.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I'm reading in mine. I'm working in mine, but I get up do my morning coffee routine, and then I moderate the Facebook group for a while. Then I get in the sauna, and I'm reading in the sauna, researching for my next book. Then, I go get in the shower and get dressed for the day.

Melanie Avalon: It's so good. Yeah, I can imagine how starting the day, it would feel really good.

Gin Stephens: It does feel good.

Melanie Avalon: It helps me wind down for sleep.

Gin Stephens: I can imagine that, too. Then, do you shower, are you sweaty?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I just rinse off in the shower. And then, I end with a cold blast.

Gin Stephens: No, not me. But, yeah, I get so sweaty. Since I like to get ready for the day early on, and I put my makeup on and do my hair every day. I do it every day.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't do that. [laughs] I do it on the days when I need to make all my Instagram content now, which I do. Oh, Gin, you didn't know this. We mentioned it last episode, but we just assumed we were going to be able to get the link. We do have a link and an offer, and I have all the details now, which is exciting. If you go to ifpodcast.com/sunlighten and use the coupon code, IFPODCAST, or if you're talking to a rep, tell them you were sent there by us, The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, you get $200 off their devices and free shipping.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I love it. It was so much easier to put together than I thought. When it was delivered in the big ol’ boxes, I was scared. I was like, “Oh my gosh, what--” but it all just unpacked easily, went together well, you just need three adults, and you can do it.

Melanie Avalon: Then I have the Solo which you lay down in, which is great for people in apartment situations. It's super easy to set up. I don't know if we have it yet. We'll put all this on ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike because I also have a really good-- if you want to get the Solo unit, the way I set it up, I have my whole setup thing. In any case, I don't have an infrared blanket, I did have some of the infrared mats that have the jade stones that they use to create the warmth. I'm not super against them, I just am hesitant about the EMF exposure. The Sunlighten units have been tested to be low EMF. I just feel there might be something different about putting it directly on your skin because in the infrared saunas, it's letting out the rays through the air into you. I'm assuming with these blankets, it's through touch because you're not going to sit by the blanket and be warm. You're going to have to actually put it on your body. Not a lot of help there, but I would definitely look into an infrared sauna, which I know is a little bit bigger than a blanket, but yes.

Gin Stephens: Yep, I love it.

Melanie Avalon: Although I will say, Frances, if you're not in my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, join me there and ask this question, because I'm sure a lot of people will weigh in with their opinions. Our only rule by the way in that group is that all opinions are welcome, and you have to be kind. Shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: This question is from Samantha. The subject is “Trying to catch up as fast as I can.” Samantha says, “Hi, ladies. Just this week, I began listening to your podcast and started my own IF journey and I can't get caught up fast enough. I love it. I really enjoy learning about different topics, but I don't do well with research. Thanks for spoon-feeding it to me. I've learned the basics so far, specifically to avoid triggering insulin production while fasting. No gum, mints, etc. When do you brush your teeth? At the very end of your window makes sense. What about the AM on a typical 18:6 IF schedule?”

Gin Stephens: So, I can go ahead and answer that Samantha. Here's the thing about teeth brushing, it's really, really brief, within two minutes of tasting sweetness, your body releases the insulin. The amount of insulin peaks at about four minutes and then returns to baseline levels. It's only going to be a little 8- to 10-minute blip of your day, and I wouldn't worry about that for brushing your teeth. Of course, that also explains why we don't drink like a diet soda because every sip is a new exposure. You don't want to do that. Brushing your teeth is very brief, and then you go on with your day. I wouldn't worry about that. I have been brushing my teeth every day, the whole time.

Melanie Avalon: You can also get brushing options that don't have a sweet taste. The one I've been using recently because I've-- we've talked about Dr. Bronner's in the past. It's not sweet. The one I'm using right now is a tooth powder.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I got one of those charcoal tooth powders, it was hilarious.

Melanie Avalon: Because it made your teeth black?

Gin Stephens: And it's such a mess. I was like, “No.” [laughs] Reject.

Melanie Avalon: Of course, I didn't reject it because Gin and I are always opposites. I am using Dirty Mouth Toothpowder for teeth whitening, the peppermint flavor, and it has no sweetener in it. I'm really, really loving it. It's really great. They also have a spearmint flavor. I've also used in the past Redmond, they have an unsweetened spearmint flavor. That's really great. If you just want to avoid the sweet thing entirely, you can go that route. Then her second question, she says, “Also, my eight-year-old son has little desire for breakfast. I tend to force him to eat something as I was always taught, we need to, for “the most important meal of the day.” Otherwise, he is a great eater. At what point do you let a child have a shortened eating window? Is it too early to let his body dictate his schedule? Thanks.” I will say this really quick sidenote, I do think when I bring on Melanie, the other Melanie on my show, I feel like I'm definitely going to be talking to her about stuff like this.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I think that's important. The question about a kid is important. Ideally, we would always let our children's bodies dictate their schedule honestly. What do you think about that statement, Melanie? That we would always let a child's body dictate what and when they eat.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I actually-- I know I'm not a mother and I don't have experience, but I do have thoughts about how I think I would go about this. I feel I would make the food choices that I think are healthy available.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: But if they don't want to eat it, that's fine. Then, if later, they'll probably eat more, when it's available.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. It does get trickier with an eight-year-old in school. I don't know in this day and age, he may not be going to in-person school and maybe he does have a flexible time that he can eat but that's the problem with-- you go to school and you have a set schedule. It's not like he could just graze on food whenever he feels like it. Maybe he can though. Our kids, when I taught, they were allowed to, in my classroom, to pull out a snack and eat at a time of the day. We didn't have a set snack time. I was a gifted teacher, even when I was the third-grade teacher, I was a third-grade teacher for years before being the gifted teacher, but I was just like, “Look, you want to bring snacks, bring snacks, I don't care, eat whenever you feel like it. Don't bother me. Eat when you want to. They had water bottles on their desk. You don't have to ask me if you can eat your snack. Just don't get in trouble with it. You can eat it.” Not all classrooms are obviously are going to be like that. I believe in letting kids eat when they want to eat and not forcing them because that's how they lose touch with their satiety signals.

Melanie Avalon: I find it also really interesting how growing up, kids rejecting certain foods, often things like vegetables when they're young, but then liking it when they're older.

Gin Stephens: I was the pickiest eater. As for my children, well, Will was not as picky. Cal was terrible. When he was little, he only ate things that were beige. I've said that before. He would eat chicken nuggets, vanilla pudding, crackers, apple sauce. Everything seemed to be beige. Now, he's a vegetarian.

Melanie Avalon: Wow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, he's not completely a vegetarian. I take that back. Kate's a vegetarian, his wife. So, they're mostly vegetarian, but he eats everything.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Did I tell you he stopped fasting? He doesn't do that anymore.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Okay. I thought I did, but I couldn't remember.

Melanie Avalon: Do we answer our question, then?

Gin Stephens: I wouldn't say you're fasting, there's your window. I wouldn't use that terminology with kids. That's the thing that's different. You don't say, “Oh, look, you're fasting. What's your eating--?” No. Offer food, make it available. If he's like, “I'm not hungry,” then say, “All right, you need to take a snack for school. Make sure you have enough lunch,” and let them eat when they're hungry later.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I feel the problem more is not letting a kid eat when hungry. That's a big problem compared to them not wanting to eat.

Gin Stephens: I think forcing them to eat when they're not hungry is also a huge problem, though. That creates disordered eating.

Melanie Avalon: I guess I didn't say that right. What I meant was in relation to, is it a fasting thing or not, but just as far as potentially problematic messaging that is sent, both physically through the body and just surrounding food.

Gin Stephens: There's no better gift that we can give our kids than the gift of exposing them to a wide variety of foods and teaching them to listen to their body as to whether they're hungry or as to whether they're not, but I also wish-- one thing I did wrong, not understanding, I didn't understand is that I didn't continue to offer the foods. I offered one time. “Oh, he doesn't like carrots. Alright, carrots are out.” No, you have to offer foods to kids-

Melanie Avalon: Multiple times.

Gin Stephens: -like 10 times before they might eat it. I would have kept offering if I could go back.

Melanie Avalon: Did we talk about that on this show something about, literally, it was like the number 10 that you have to--? I think it was a book I was reading, and I was talking about how to change your taste buds, and you introduce it to yourself. I wish I could remember what it was from, but I feel like it was saying, this is ringing a bell, that if you make it 10 times and you still don't like it, then it's probably not for you.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, I think that's true. It's just like people who say, I can't get used to black coffee, your taste buds can get used to black coffee.

Melanie Avalon: I know who it was, it was Dr. Cate Shanahan’s Fatburn Fix.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: She has a whole section on cravings and food tastes and all of that, and it's really, really fascinating.

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All right. Shall we move on to the next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Timothia. The subject is “Changing my eating window on the weekends/menopause/bloating.” Timothia says, “Hi Melanie and Gin, I love your podcast, but just started listening so I'm only on episode 15. Looking forward to binge-listening to more episodes. I started IF one month ago with a 6 AM to 2 PM eating window during the week and I took the weekends off, no fasting. I lost 5 pounds in two weeks and was thrilled. When I gained back 2 pounds the third week, I decided to modify. I've kept the same fasting schedule as above during the week, but I shift to dinner only a five-hour window on the weekends. This is so I can enjoy a glass of wine Friday/Saturday night and also eat dinner with my family. Have you seen this type of pattern work for people?”

Gin Stephens: This goes right back to what we had at the very beginning of the show with Katie. Timothia, you just started a month ago. So, you’ve got to come up with a way to track that's not just, “Oh, I've lost 5 pounds, oops, I've gained back 2,” because that's not really what's probably happening. Fluctuations confuse more people than anything. You get on the scale, it's up 2 pounds, does that mean you've gained 2 pounds? No, it means your scale has fluctuated upward, you might have gained two pounds of fat, but maybe you've lost fat, but you have to poop. It's hard to know. All the reasons why your scale could be up. I would like to beg the entire world to weigh daily and use some kind of app that does the trend for you, like Happy Scale on iOS or Libra on Android. I don't know anything about Android, but I've just heard that one's good. I know Russ Shanahan, who made the Happy Scale app, he's awesome. That's the one I recommend for iOS, or just do it old school like I did. At the end of the week, you add it all up, divide by seven, or get a Shapa a scale that shows your overall trend, ginstephens.com/shapa. Any of those things, but you cannot let those fluctuations get in your head. If you lost 5 pounds in two weeks and gain came back 2, you're still down 3, that's a great rate of loss for three weeks. But also, that first month, you should not expect to lose any weight because your body is adjusting to intermittent fasting. I'm so emphatic about that, because the early days, you'll be like, “Oh my gosh, it's not working out. I just gained 2 pounds.” That's not what's really happening.

Melanie Avalon: I know we sound maybe like a broken record, but I do think it's really valuable-- because we just got a question from one person asking this, but I think it is very comforting to listeners to hear it coming from so many different people and slightly different tweaks on it, slightly different versions of it.

Gin Stephens: We've had hundreds of thousands of people come through my Facebook community.

Melanie Avalon: I just love that we're on the same page. I was going to say that saying what I just said might sound like, “Oh, well, maybe things are not working for people and we're just giving the same answer.” Gin, there's hundreds of thousands of people if you'd like to continue that thought.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's also I've talked to 130, 140 people now on Intermittent Fasting Stories, and it's common, over and over and over again. That's one reason why I didn't just slightly revised Delay, Don’t Deny and rerelease it, but I wrote a whole new book, with Fast. Feast. Repeat. because people really need to understand that this is not like other things and that there are common things that you're going to go through. If you think about it the way you've thought about other things you've done, you're going to feel like you failed. Again, that's why I kept starting and stopping all those years. From 2009 to 2014, I started and stopped intermittent fasting so many times, I couldn't believe it. I never stuck with it. I never lost weight. Finally, in 2014 when I stuck with it, that was the time I was weighing daily and calculating my weekly average and that was when I could see, “Oh, look, even though my Friday weight is higher than last Friday's weight, my weekly average is down. This is working.”

Instead of like saying, “Well, this isn't working. I'm going to quit. I weigh 1 pound more than I did last Friday. I'm gaining weight.” No, I wasn't. I wasn't gaining weight, but my fluctuation was up. Our bodies don't just linear go down, down, down, down, down, down. Wouldn't it be nice if they did, but they don't.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Her second question. She says, “I've also been on medication for four years to prevent a recurrence of breast cancer. This medicine keeps me artificially in menopause. Most of my weight gain has occurred since being on the medication. Until my mid-30s, I'm 43 now, I generally ate anything I felt like and maintained a healthy weight. But now, I'm about 50 pounds overweight. My question is do you find IF works less well, the same, or better for postmenopausal women than premenopausal women? I've heard it doesn't work as well. I continue to gravitate towards carbs such as pasta, chips, popcorn, and one to two glasses of wine in my eating window. But this is what I've eaten until late at night, almost every night for 20 plus years. I'm a definite night owl. You say to change not what you eat, but when you eat, but I feel like I'll have to change both. This is another reason I decided to eat 6 AM to 2 PM during the week because I rarely overeat for breakfast and lunch. I'm also at work during those hours, so I have less time to overindulge.” Thoughts on that one.

Gin Stephens: Well, first of all, I would like to say part about postmenopausal, premenopausal and we've heard it didn't work as well. We've got women of all ages in these groups. Women in their 70s, 80s even, not as many, Lots of women in their 50s and 60s, lots of postmenopausal women. I will say that when I was going through menopause, the year when I was waiting for that year, to now I'm postmenopausal, but I did have a little, I think, I wasn't weighing but I think my honesty pants got a little tight. So, I'm sure if I had been weighing daily, I would have seen weight gain, but I wasn't weighing, my pants were a little tight. Now, I'm on the other side, and my honesty pants are once again as loose as they ever were. I am now officially postmenopausal and maintaining great in the range at the low end of what I would guess is my maintenance range. I do not buy into that once you're postmenopausal, all bets are off, I don't think so at all, just from watching the wonderful women in the Delay, Don't Deny Facebook communities. While you're going through the change itself, maybe you might not lose weight that year. What were you going to say?

Melanie Avalon: It's like how things are phrased, but I think there's a difference between saying, IF doesn't work as well, compared to in a certain hormonal state you might be up against hormones that are a larger challenge. It's not that IF is not working or not working as well. It's still doing the same thing, it's just-- I don't want to say fighting because it's not like it's a negative thing. If your body is in a hormonal state that is not that receptive to weight loss, it could be a lot of things. It could just be your personal hormone chemistry. She's on medication, which by the way, we're very happy for you that you got through the breast cancer the first time. Especially if you're on medications that are messing with your hormones, it can be really hard to make at least fast progress when you have hormonal signals that are sending an opposite signal to your body. I don't think it’s that IF is not working or can't work. It's just that it might be perceived as a more concentrated effort, or it might seem harder.

Gin Stephens: You’ve got to something that I wasn't stressing, but it's important. She said, “Do you find that IF works?” It's how are you defining works. IF is always working. In your body, it's always doing positive things. If we're talking about does it work for weight loss, I was interpreting it that way, working for weight loss, but really, IF is always working, even if you're not losing the weight. Also, I like to think about it like this. The average weight gain during menopause, I just looked it up real quick, and according to this one source that just came up when I googled it, this is not scientific rigor. When I googled it, there was an estimate that the average weight gained during menopause maybe 10 to 15 pounds. Let's think about this. Let's say that you're going through menopause, and you aren't losing any weight. Well, if most people going through menopause gain 10 to 15 pounds, but you are staying the same, that's actually working really well.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's a really great point.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Also, there's something that she said you say not to change what you eat, but when you eat. Well, I do say that during your first 28 days, in the 28 Day FAST Start, I want you to not try to do intermittent fasting and change everything you're eating all at the same time, while your body adjusts to fasting. It's wrong that, Melanie and I, don't say to change what you eat, because what I've eaten has changed a lot over time. If the foods you're not eating don't work well for your body, I do think you should change them. Your body will let you know over time. If you went back to 2014 me and said, “Here's a box of Pop-Tarts. Do you want to eat them?” I would be like, “Oh my gosh, I love Pop-Tarts. Yeah, I'm going to eat them.” If you handed me a box of Pop-Tarts today, I'd be like, “Uh-uh, no, I'm not going to eat that. I don't like it.” It's not because I'm on a diet or they're wrong. They're not good. I don't like them anymore. Most people do change what they eat over time, because their body directs them towards the foods that are more nutritious. It just happens naturally. When you get more in tune with your body thanks to fasting, you feel so good that you realize, “Ooh, if I ate a box of Pop-Tarts, I would feel awful.” So, you just don't do that anymore, because you don't like them.

Melanie Avalon: To that point, and I'm grateful I don't have to make this decision, and this isn't a decision that is honestly, that I can think of ever realistically. Well, it might be, I won't say that. If I had to, for some reason, choose between food choices that serve my body and not fasting compared to fasting and food choices that don't serve my body, I would actually choose food choices that serve my body and not fasting. I think Gin and I are different on that.

Gin Stephens: We've talked about that. Thank goodness we don't have to choose.

Melanie Avalon: I know, it's like almost not. The only reason I say it is to draw attention to it how important I do think food choices are, which Gin obviously just said, because it is similar to the whole hormonal signal thing that I was just talking about. If you're going up against hormones that aren't working, it can be difficult. If you're putting in food choices that are inflammatory or encouraging weight gain, or-- I mean that is a thing, IF does not magically erase anything and everything that you eat. What you eat in that window is going to have a massive effect on going back to “works.” It’s going to have a massive effect on how well you perceive IF is working.

Gin Stephens: Also, she said she has one to two glasses of wine every day in her eating window, I would not lose weight doing that. I wouldn't. I didn't start drinking a glass of wine at night-- I was, when I wrote Delay, Don’t Deny, but I was also in maintenance at that point. I delayed wine when I was trying to lose weight even prior to writing Delay, Don’t Deny, I delayed wine. I delayed the overly processed foods. Melanie, here's what's really funny, I was thinking about this. That period of time that I talk about in Delay, Don’t Deny when I delayed ultra-processed foods and alcohol, I bet if I went back and scored those meals using the Zoe app, I bet they were super high scores because I was eating in probably a one to two-hour window every night, so I didn't have time to eat like overdo the fat. I was having butter and sour cream on my potato, with my beans, a little cheese on there, and I was eating a lot of veggies. It was really all those things that would create a high-scoring Zoe meal for me.

Melanie Avalon: I will say for those who do want to attempt wine in their weight loss protocol, definitely check out my book, What When Wine. Gin and I have talked about this before. For some people, alcohol actually works pretty well in weight loss plan.

Gin Stephens: It does. I clear alcohol slowly.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and some people don't. It is entirely possible. Even in that situation if we’re talking about choosing between two things, I think in the greater context of like alcohol and the food choices, it's not the alcohol that's becoming fat ever. I think I can say that as a blanket statement. That said, the food choices can become fat eaten with alcohol, and then depending on how the alcohol is affecting your metabolism, it can be making it harder to lose weight. For some people, it actually is making it easier to lose weight. That sounds crazy but check out What When Wine, I have a whole chapter on it.

Gin Stephens: For me, it all goes back to measuring my ketones has really with the breathalyzer has really helped me see the alcohol. My ketones were low, low, low, low, low. But eating like the Zoe, my ketones were through the roof high. My body doesn't clear things quickly is what I realized. [laughs] Whether it's fat, whether it's alcohol. [sigh]

Melanie Avalon: I do have to do a plug every time we talk about wine. Friends, Dry Farm Wines. If anybody's curious, while Gin is not currently drinking wine.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm having my little micro-dose, did I tell you that?

Melanie Avalon: Oh yes.

Gin Stephens: Every now and then I'm having a little micro-dose, not enough to feel it. Not enough to have a buzz. Chad's drinking his that I got him for Christmas. I'm like, “Pour me a tiny little bit.” A tiny bit to Chad is little, it's a little, little bit. It's probably a Melanie Avalon micro-dose. Yeah, I've turned into you.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: I'm not getting a buzz. I'm not drinking like a whole glass.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, Dry Farm Wines, they are sort of like a wine investigator. They go to the wineries and they test the wines and then they find the wines that are tested to be low alcohol, low sugar, free of toxins, free of mold, pesticides, organic, etc. If you want to have wine in the healthiest way possible, at least how I believe and possibly not have things like hangovers and such, I cannot recommend enough, Dry Farm Wines. You can get a bottle for a penny at dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast. I think that's the link. I don't think there's a code, but if there's a code, it's IFPODCAST. My favorite thing actually about it, it lets you try all these different varietals that you might not have tried normally because it's like a shipment, so you get a box of like-- you can pick red, white, or both. You get all these different varietals. I always listen to my Lana Del Rey and open a bottle and do a wine tasting with myself. I think it's the Vino app. Oh my goodness. It's like the coolest thing ever. Have you used it, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I don't like to track things. Do you think I'm going to track my wine in an app? I know. I know. It's recording it and keeping up with what you buy.

Melanie Avalon: You scan the label and it comes up, it finds the wine every time. You can put in reviews if you want, but it pulls it up. You get all the information about it and you get the reviews. It's like tasting notes.

Gin Stephens: Okay, yeah, I'm going to do that.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I think a lot of Dry Farm Wines people use it because--

Gin Stephens: It sounds cool.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. A lot of people getting Dry Farm Wines. It's not like we went and sought out that bottle, you're getting what you get. The reason I know a lot of people are using it is a lot of the reviews mentioned Dry Farm Wines.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's great. I love it.

Melanie Avalon: It's great.

Gin Stephens: I just want to make it through my life easy. I want the easy button. I don't want to read about it. I just want to open it and drink it.

Melanie Avalon: I review them now when I taste. You might see my reviews. Last night, I tried one and it had-- it was a blend from Italy. A four varietals, sorry, I'm going on a tangent. One was Cabernet, which people are familiar with one was Primitivo, I think that's how you say it, which is like a Zinfandel. Then the other two I'd never heard of in my entire life. It was so exciting to learn.

Gin Stephens: Wow, you're a wine girl.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know really any of the-- there's a ton of varietals out there. My point is it's really exciting to be exposed. If you're a wine fan, it's really fun, Dry Farm Wines. Okay.

Gin Stephens: All right, we got a little bit more from Timothia.

Melanie Avalon: She has one more question. She says it's about bloating. “When I've gone on calorie restricted diets in the past or change the type of foods I eat¸ I'm usually very bloated for the first few days, but it passes by the second week. After four weeks on IF, I'm bloated almost every night, no pain. Any suggestions?”

Gin Stephens: Well, I was just going to say that it sounds like that Timothia’s body responds to change by her digestive system gets a little sluggish, and that seems to be something that's happened all the time. But it's continuing for four weeks, I don't know, what would you say?

Melanie Avalon: It sounds to me like a food combination overload situation, because in the past, you weren't doing IF, but you were eating foods. When you would change the type of foods, you would get bloating, but it would pass by the second week, so within days. That indicates to me that it was microbiome shifts that were happening because it is very common for people's microbiome to change. If they're changing their foods, they get bloating. But the fact that it would resolve makes me think that your microbiome was adapting. The fact that now with IF, you're bloated and it's not going away and it's been four weeks, I would hypothesize that you're probably overwhelming the system. It's probably not-- it could be a microbiome thing, but it could be like the shortened eating window and the foods that you're eating, you're not going to be able to have that-- either quantity or combination and resolve the bloating.

What I would recommend is a few different things. If you do just want to go the supplement route, Atrantil can be a game changer for bloating. Helps me so much, help so many people that I know in my Facebook group. It's completely natural and it targets a type of bacteria-- it's not a bacteria, it's actually an organism called archaea. It's often linked to bloating in people and it specifically targets that type of entity in your stomach. The link for that is lovemytummy.com/ifp for 10% off. That said, for the food route, I would recommend a few different things. I'd recommend maybe-- I feel like you're going to have to look at your food choices and the quantity/types of food you're eating. You might just need to eat different foods. Low FODMAP helps a lot of people with bloating. You could try that for a few weeks. If that resolves the bloating, that would indicate to me that it is a microbiome issue that's being exacerbated or created by overeating in your window or the food choices. I would definitely try low FODMAPS. You can get my app, it's called Food Sense Guide. It compares over 300 foods for a-- well, when this comes out, probably 12 potentially problematic compounds that create distress and GI issues and other food sensitivity issues in a lot of people, and it includes FODMAP content for over 300 foods. So, that'd be really valuable. That's at melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide. Those are my recommendations.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think those are great because when I first started responding to it, I had forgotten the fact that she's four weeks in. Then as soon as I read that, I was like, “Oh, yeah, this should have adjusted by now.” Good stuff.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I feel like we tackled a lot of content today. This has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions to the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. There will be a full transcript in the show notes, those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode199. Exciting announcement, next week is Episode 200. Guys, tune in because it's going to be a super fun special episode with Gin and I answering random crazy questions.

Gin Stephens: Don't get too crazy. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: We should record it at night and drink wine. Oh, wait. Oh, you don't drink.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I'm not going to drink wine enough to be crazy. Sorry. I'm crazy without it. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, I'll drink wine.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Follow us on Instagram. Gin is GinStephens. I'm MelanieAvalon. I think that's everything. Anything from you, Gin, before we go.

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Jan 31

Episode 198: Personal Health Wearables, Heat Stress, Training For Ironman, Sugar Vs. Sugar Substitutes, Vitamin Fortified Foods, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Life lessons with gin and sheri podcast

Welcome to Episode 198 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time New Members Will Get A Rack Of St. Louis Style Ribs, A Pack Of Bacon, And A Pack Of Pulled Pork For Free In Their First Box By Going To Butcherbox.Com/IFPODCAST!

BLUBlox: Overexposure to blue light in our modern environments can lead to increased anxiety, stress, headaches, and other health conditions. Even a tiny exposure to artificial light can completely offset your circadian rhythm! Unlike many “blue light blocking” glasses on the market, BLUBlox provides glasses that block the exact blue wavelengths you need to regulate sleep, reduce anxiety, and much more! They also provide different types of glasses for the time of day, season, and your personal electronic and light exposure! Plus, for every BLUblox purchase, they donate a pair of glasses to someone in need! Go To bluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time new members will get A rack of St. Louis style ribs, A pack of bacon, and a pack of pulled pork for free in their first box by going to butcherbox.com/IFPODCAST!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

SUNLIGHTEN: Get $100 Off The Solo Unit AND $99 Shipping With The Code MelanieAvalon At MelanieAvalon.Com/Sunlighten

FOOD SENSE GUIDE: Get Melanie's App At Melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide To Tackle Your Food Sensitivities! Food Sense Includes A Searchable Catalogue Of 300+ Foods, Revealing Their Gluten, FODMAP, Lectin, Histamine, Amine, Glutamate, Oxalate, Salicylate, Sulfite, And Thiol Status. Food Sense Also Includes Compound Overviews, Reactions To Look For, Lists Of Foods High And Low In Them, The Ability To Create Your Own Personal Lists, And More!

Listener Feedback: Krishcea - What a life hack

Listener Q&A: Franchesca - Oura ring

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #76 - Harpreet Rai (Oura Ring)

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #74 - Benjamin Bikman, Ph.D.

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #70 - Kara Collier (Nutrisense)

Listener Q&A: Vicki - Ironman training

Intermittent Fasting Stores Epsiode 121

For A Limited Time Go To DrinkLMNT.Com/Ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!!

Stronger By Stress: Adapt to Beneficial Stressors to Improve Your Health and Strengthen the Body (Siim Land)

BLUBLOX: Go To BluBlox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

Listener Q&A: Samantha - Whole food sweeteners, Sugar vs Aspartame & Rick Johnson

The Wahls Protocol: A Radical New Way to Treat All Chronic Autoimmune Conditions Using Paleo Principles (Terry Wahls M.D.)

Sari Foods Co Natural Non-Fortified Nutritional Yeast Flakes (24 oz.)

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 198 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of our sponsors. This episode is sponsored by Butcher Box. As you know, both Melanie and I love Butcher Box and for different reasons. Melanie loves to grocery shop, but can't find the quality of meat she's looking for at our local stores. Butcher Box solves that problem for her. For me, there's nothing better than having it delivered right to your door, because you probably know that I hate to grocery shop. Butcher Box promises high-quality meat, delicious 100% grass-fed beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork, and wild-caught seafood, all sourced from partners who believe in doing things the right way. It's also an unbelievable value. The average cost is less than $6 per meal. One thing you'll love about Butcher Box is its flexibility. Here's how Butcher Box works.

Butcher Box partners with folks who believe in better, going above and beyond when it comes to caring for animals, the environment, and sustainability. You choose your box and delivery frequency. They offer five boxes, four curated box options, as well as the popular custom box, so you get exactly what you and your family love. Butcher box ships your order frozen for freshness and packed in an eco-friendly 100% recyclable box. You enjoy high-quality meat delivered to your door and more time for amazing meals together. You feel good about your decision to believe in better with Butcher Box supporting farmers and partners who honor nature, the animals, and the environment. Get ready for game day with Butcher Box. Right now, new members will get one rack of St. Louis-style ribs, one pack of bacon and a pack of pulled pork for free in their first box by going to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast.

Melanie Avalon: One more thing before we jump in. Are you concerned about aging? Well, thankfully, fasting is super incredible for its anti-aging benefits. It activates genes in your body called sirtuins, which repair your body and help extend lifespan. Also, during the fast, your body can clean up a lot of harmful chemicals which may be taxing your detoxification systems. In fact, the reason people go gray is because their detox systems start producing a lot of hydrogen peroxide when dealing with toxins. Do you know where a lot of those chemicals come from? Your skincare and makeup. As it turns out, there are 1000s of compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup that Europe has banned due to their toxic nature, and the US has banned less than 10. When you put these on your skin every single day through your skincare makeup, you're adding to your body's burden and likely aging your skin faster.

Thankfully, you can easily clean up your skincare with a company called Beautycounter. They make incredible products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about every single ingredient that you put on. They also have an amazing anti-aging line called Countertime. Friends, this is a game-changer. It's full of active ingredients which nourish and support your skin, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, and support a beautiful glow. It also has a safe alternative to retinol, so you can get all of the anti-aging benefits of retinol without any of the toxic effects of retinol, because, yes, that stuff is toxic. Guys, put it away now.

You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. If you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. Also definitely get on my clean beauty email list that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away so many free things on that list. So definitely check it out. Lastly, if you anticipate making safe skincare a part of your future, just like Gin and I do, definitely become a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for safe skincare. You get 10% back on all of your purchases, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that costs way more than the price of the membership. It's completely worth it. Friends, are you fast and clean inside and out? You can with Beautycounter. Again, that link is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 198 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am fabulous. Happy New Year.

Melanie Avalon: Happy New Year. How was your New Year's Eve?

Gin Stephens: Well, I spent it with my cohost of the Life Lessons podcast. She and her husband came to visit for a couple nights and we put together my new Sunlighten sauna.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited.

Gin Stephens: Oh my gosh. Yes.

Melanie Avalon: I've been waiting for this moment, Gin, since I first got Sunlighten like, what, a year and a half ago, maybe? Oh, my goodness. Tell me everything.

Gin Stephens: It's kind of funny. Did I tell you how we couldn't put it together because my husband wouldn't make a decision about the garage? As soon as the box was delivered-- we talked about it all the way through the process like, “Okay, I'm going to get the sauna. Should I go ahead and get it?” And he's like, “Yes.” It took a few weeks for it to come. Now I got the mPulse cONQUER Sunlighten sauna which the three people. I'm not going to put three people in it, you'd have to sit really close together, but I can lay down on the bench. It's a pretty good sized-- it's 71 inches wide. It's a good size. Anyway, as soon as the box was delivered, it's actually three giant boxes that had to come special freight. They used a forklift to put it in our garage, that's how heavy the three boxes were. Okay, so I was like, “Oh, that's a lot.”

As soon as it was delivered, he's like, “Now we have to paint the floor of the garage and the walls of the garage before we can put anything up.” I'm like, “Well, okay, let's think about that.” We thought about thought about it, thought about it. He looked at paint chips. He thought about it, he never made a decision. It sat there for over a month, staring at me. Then finally, I was like, “Sheri and Eric are going to be here on New Year's Eve, what if we go ahead and just set up the sauna now?” He's like, “Okay, fine.” So, we did it. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: The sauna I have for listeners, I've talked about it a lot, I have the Solo unit, which is it's great for people like me who live in an apartment, who don't have a lot of space because it's collapsible and you actually lay down inside of it. They actually have it at a lot of spas. Before I had one, I was getting sessions at different spas, so it's amazing for a little apartment dweller like me. Gin got the sauna sauna. Tell me about it.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm really glad we waited till they were here to put it together because it really did, I think take three people. Now, Eric just had neck surgery, so he couldn't lift anything heavy, but he was the technical director, he read the directions to us and helped us know what to do. I mean, we did it. We just did it. It was pretty easy. The pieces were in there, you start with the floor and then you put it on the back and the side pieces and the front. Then, there's this little pin that just connects the front to the side and these little pins, they're just four. The whole thing was eight screws and four pins.

Melanie Avalon: Are you serious?

Gin Stephens: Eight screws to screw on the feet on the bottom, four pins, one for each corner, and then the roof just set into place. The hardest part was you have to undo the floor panels and then click together the electrical connections. A little tip, if anybody gets one, in the directions they have you put the bench in first and then do the floor connections. Don't do that. [laughs] Because Sheri and I were both in there like hunched under the bench, but we did it. Then, it all worked. It just all worked. Oh, and you can watch TV on the little panel.

Melanie Avalon: It has a TV?

Gin Stephens: Well, it has a touch panel that actually has a media-- it connects to your Wi-Fi, and you can watch like Netflix. I didn't know it was going to do that. It's an Android tablet in there. I had no idea. I'm like, “Oh my God, we can watch TV while we're sitting in here.”

Melanie Avalon: Does it have the chromotherapy, like the color lighting?

Gin Stephens: It has different color lights. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, just in case, they're not familiar, the Sunlighten saunas are infrared saunas. They don't heat up by heating up the air, they actually use infrared wavelengths that heat you up from the inside out. It feels warm, I assume, but--

Gin Stephens: The air goes up to 132 when I'm in there, 132 degrees. The air does go up, but it doesn't go up to the levels of 160, 170.

Melanie Avalon: Like traditional heat saunas.

Gin Stephens: Yes. I mean, it does go up. It's 131, 132 degrees in there when it's really going.

Melanie Avalon: Then you actually heat up from the inside. A way I describe it is, you can have a fever, but not-- you feel warm this on it, but you can have a fever and not actually feel that hot. That's how a sauna works. It gives you an artificial fever. People might be like, “Why do I want to have an artificial fever? The benefits are profound. There's so much clinical literature on the benefits of heat stress, because basically it activates something called heat shock proteins in your body. We're always talking on the show about how fasting activates things like autophagy and different cellular processes that support health. Just like fasting is a stress. sauna used as a stress. Well, A, it can have the cardiovascular equivalent benefits of working out for your heart. They started doing studies actually on sauna use as a veritable or a potential preventative measure for COVID. I was actually reading some studies on it.

Gin Stephens: Oh, wow.

Melanie Avalon: I'll put a link in the show notes to that. I did a really long blog post on this recently. That's why it's all at the top of my head. The conclusion of the study was that heat therapy might be something to consider with this pandemic, because the body's initial way that it combats viruses is with fever, with heat. Viruses are heat sensitive and COVID, the SARS strain is, so that's really cool if you can get in your sauna every single day and hopefully use it as a preventative for COVID.

Gin Stephens: I think I'm going to use it every single day. I don't know what will happen in the summer. We'll have to see, but right now, I mean, every day I've gotten in it because it feels so good. I wake up, drink my coffee, do my normal morning.

Melanie Avalon: You do it in the morning? Oh, that’s so interesting. I do it at night right before eating.

Gin Stephens: Before I get in the shower. Yeah, because I'm so sweaty.

Melanie Avalon: The way I describe it is you get in it and you just feel like your body just gives a sigh of relief.

Gin Stephens: I don't want to get out. I'm not kidding. I'm doing research for my new book, and I was doing research in the sauna. So, I think I stayed in there too long.

Melanie Avalon: It's amazing. A little hack for listeners, if you end up getting the Solo unit that I have, and you want to set it up inside, I'll put a link to the way I set it up because Amazon has a twin mattress frame thing that's all metal and black and it fits perfectly. Like you sit the Solo on top of it, and then I found this, also on Amazon, it's like an arm that holds your iPhone and I attach it to the frame, so then it holds my iPhone over my head, so then I can do work or read a book while I'm in it.

Gin Stephens: I'm finding that it just feels so great just to be in there that I don't want to get out, so I'm going to find ways to do my work in there, too. They technically say don't take your phone in there.

Melanie Avalon: They do? I was wondering if they say that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it does say that but I think they probably just say that to be safe. I did have my phone in there for a while with me this morning. Then I was like, “Oh, yeah, phone.” So, I took it out, but the unit that I have people are like, “Where would I put it in my house?” I have it in a corner of my garage that it fits in perfectly. We did have to have a new circuit put in.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to ask about that.

Gin Stephens: It was like 100 bucks. It was not expensive.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? Who installed it?

Gin Stephens: Our electrician. We just called, and he was doing some other work for us. We're like, “Hey, do you know how to do this?” He's like, “Yeah, that'll be very easy.” He just did it. It was very easy for him to do it. Just needed a special plug for it. You could have it done in like a spare bedroom, or they can even go outside, but you have to cover it with a special cover that they sell, so I would worry about the longevity of it outside. I feel like it's an investment I want to have protected, but you can put them outside.

Melanie Avalon: This is so exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is so exciting. I just really can't believe how much I love it because I like to be hot. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I was so excited. I was like, “I know when she gets it, she's going to go with it and she's going to love it.” I feel it's not exactly what you anticipate. It's not this miserable, sweaty, disgusting feeling. It's like the most pleasant feeling with so many health benefits. Like I said it, I think it pairs really well with fasting.

Gin Stephens: I think so, too. I'm doing it in the fasted state, so I feel it's accelerating, I don't know, maybe it isn't, but it feels like it would.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, well, to that point, because people often wonder about the metabolic benefits in weight loss and things like that. It actually does burn a substantial amount of calories by heating up your body. Most of the “weight loss” is temporary and it's water, but it actually can support weight loss as well. You can wear your Oura ring in there, in case listeners are wondering. I'm just so happy right now. So happy for you. For listeners. If you'd like to get your own Sunlighten sauna, I promise you, you will not look back it will be one of the best decisions you've ever made. We do have a link for listeners. If you go to ifpodcast.com/sunlighten and use the coupon code, IFPODCAST, there's some sort of discount that you will get at that link. So, that's pretty awesome.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I can't recommend it highly enough.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so happy.

Gin Stephens: I am so happy. My house was built in 1979, so I don't know why we have this little section in the garage. Maybe it's there a heating ductwork in there, I have no idea. There's this one little section where the ceiling is a little bit lowered. My sauna is exactly the right size to go in that section. I mean like exactly. The height of it was perfect. It looks it was designed for a sauna together. It was the 70s, they were wacky, maybe it was.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe it was. It would have been a probably a traditional sauna.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's true.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's the other amazing thing that I love about the infrared sauna is, it's like self-cleaning in a way because traditional heat, saunas can have a problem about mold growing in them. The infrared saunas, they pretty much take care of themselves. They're very low maintenance for cleaning, which is really, really awesome.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yay. I feel I'm slowly pulling you into all the biohacks world of things.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] These are easy ones. Oh, and I also started the Zoe eating from the PREDICT 3 study. I'm using the Zoe app. I'm just eating a lot of beans, beans and vegetables, mostly.

Melanie Avalon: How do you feel?

Gin Stephens: I feel so fantastic.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? Cool.

Gin Stephens: Yes. It's really, really hard to because my body clears fats really which I'm not [unintelligible [00:16:32] about. That's the only part that's hard for me is, I can have meals that score 100 as far as because it matches what my gut microbiome does well with what foods are good for me, but because I have an eating window, if I stack too many things in it, my body doesn't have time to clear the fat and my score goes down because of that. Like avocados and eggs, for example. They're great for me, but I can't have too much of it close together. That's the only hard part.

Melanie Avalon: That would make sense.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm super bummed that my body clears fat slowly, but so not surprised.

Melanie Avalon: I'm sure I would bet that mine does clear slowly as well. I have a question for you. It didn't test your fat clearance in a non-paired with carbohydrates situation, did it?

Gin Stephens: They were separate. There were two different muffins. I'm not sure what the macronutrient ratio of each muffin was, so I can't tell you that. I know that one muffin was a high sugar muffin with low fat. The other muffin was a high-fat muffin with lower carbs. It tracked how your body cleared the fat after the high-fat muffin.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if they did the same test on you, if you were doing a ketogenic diet, if it would be the same.

Gin Stephens: Well, I will tell you that I felt terrible all the time when I did keto, like it was inflammatory for me and this would explain why. They talk about in their research that if your body clears fat slowly, too much fat is inflammatory for you. That was like a light bulb of why I felt so inflamed on keto, well, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: That's so interesting.

Gin Stephens: It's very high in like I said, fruits and vegetables. Well, I could eat fruits, but vegetables, lots and lots of vegetables, and I'm eating so many beans.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just thinking about the digestive distress I would have.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I feel great. My body's like, “Bring on the beans.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my gosh. That's so funny. I have one really quick update for listeners. I think it will be released by the time this comes out most likely. I should have recently just released an update to my app, speaking of food digestive issues. My app, Food Sense Guide, it did have 11 potentially problematic compounds that people react to in over 300 plus foods, things like FODMAPs and histamine and oxalates and lectins and gluten and all this stuff. I just added AIP, which is autoimmune paleo. A lot of people do that approach. Basically, now it says for each food if it is on the AIP protocol, or not.

Gin Stephens: Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Very excited. Working still with your son's friend on that. He does my updates.

Gin Stephens: I actually saw Nate over at the Christmas holidays.

Melanie Avalon: That is so lovely.

Gin Stephens: And Nate's dog. I saw him from a distance. He waved at me, actually distanced. [laughs] They played frisbee in the front yard with their masks on.

Melanie Avalon: Oh really, I love it. Responsible.

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Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off, we have mostly feedback but with one question. It is from Keisha. “The subject is what a life hack.” Keisha says, “My name is Keisha and that is pronounced Keisha.” She says, “I was introduced to IF in March of 2019 by my fiancé and just like the majority of the population, I was unhappy with my body. I'm five foot tall and I weighed 160 pounds prior to starting IF. In February of 2019, I was put on fenofibrate by my physician for my triglycerides were in the 400 range, and I was also prediabetic. Both of these conditions run in both sides of my family, combined with a poor diet, I was set to fail. I've been an intermittent faster since March of 2019 and my life was forever changed. My goal was to lose 50 pounds and I did. I lost five pounds in 10 months doing 16:8 for the first three months which was the adjusting period. I remember hitting a plateau and I took that as my body’s signal to change things up a bit. I combine 20:4 and one meal a day depending on my schedule and the activities I have planned.

After being fully adjusted to IF after the first three months, I noticed that my body was craving high protein, medium fat, low carb items. My attitude towards food changed. I do not look at food the same way as I did before I incorporated intermittent fasting into my life. I listened to my body and honored its wishes. December of 2019, right before the holidays is what I hit my goal. I cannot believe that I was capable of losing 50 pounds, when I couldn't even lose 10 pounds in the past without gaining it back, plus some. I was so proud of myself. The weight loss was the cherry on top.

I found your podcast around October 2019 and you guys have helped changed my life. After finding your podcast, I got interested in biohacking.” Yay, that's me. “And did my own research. I was so fascinated by you guys and all the health benefits that you talk about on the podcast, so I applied everything I learned from you two, and from doing my own research into my life. After my weight loss, my physician took me off of fenofibrate for a scheduled physical and my triglycerides were normal. I was no longer in the prediabetic range, and my IBS-C medication was also fully stopped by the fifth month of IF since I no longer needed it for regularity. My mood, mindset, and attitude was also improved by 50-fold. I no longer get frequent migraines, and I feel one with myself. The purpose of this email is to tell you my story and to show gratitude. You're changing lives, just like how you two helped change mine. The one interest I have is to be part of an intermittent fasting study. Do you guys know how I can go about this? Everyone needs to know what intermittent fasting is and we need to conduct more research about autophagy to really educate the community. Thank you, guys.” And then, she also attached photos to show the changes that she experienced. I really, really loved this email.

Gin Stephens: I loved it, too.

Melanie Avalon: Do you know how listeners can join studies?

Gin Stephens: Are you going to tell me?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] The way you said it sounded like, “I know the answer.” I have no idea. If you have connections, if you're in a research town where they're doing, I don't know. For example, the PREDICT 2 study was word of mouth. I don't even know who first told me that they were doing it. It might have been my friend, Sheri, the cohost of the podcast, Life Lessons, with me. Somebody was like, “Oh, look, they're looking for people to do the PREDICT 2 study.” I think word of mouth is one way a lot of these things spread through communities.

Melanie Avalon: I often see studies come across my emails occasionally. I actually the other day got one from my health insurer-- no, no, I think it was from Quest or LabCorp. I think it was Quest where you get blood draws. I'm on their email list and they sent out a thing where you could sign up to be in their pool for studies. I usually don't qualify for most of them because a lot of the times it's like you can't have had-- when they're like gut related, you can't have had like digestive issues or things like that. I'm like, “Oh, well, that's not me.” I will put links in the show notes, because there are some websites that you can go on, and you can sign up to potentially be matched to studies. I'll put links in the show notes to some of those links. Wait, how did you say, Gin, that you got the PREDICT study?

Gin Stephens: Well, I didn’t know that we were talking about it in the Intermittent Fasting group. I think it might have been my friend, Sheri. I don't know how she found out about it, but somebody was like, “Look, they're looking for people to do this study.” But I think it gets passed around sometimes in interested communities. I feel if there was an intermittent fasting study looking for participants that we would know in our communities.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, for example, just briefly googling, and I haven't used these, so I can't speak to if they're good sources or not. There's a website called researchmatch.org that will match you to studies, there's a website called antidote.me that will match you to studies. If you just google like how to join research studies, there are quite a few websites that pop up. That might be a good way to go. I would actually love to hear from listeners, I wonder if any of our listeners have been in any of the intermittent fasting or time-restricted eating studies.

Gin Stephens: That would be interesting. I wonder what they told them to drink. I'm always so curious.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, listeners, if you have been in one, please write in and tell us. I'm dying to know what that was like. So, yeah, hopefully that's helpful.

Gin Stephens: All right. Are we ready to go on?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Okay. We have a question from Francesca, and the subject is “Oura Ring.” She says, “First, I wanted to know what you thought of the Oura ring. I'm debating whether or not to buy one and have read conflicting opinions and views about its degree of usefulness. I tried looking through your podcasts to see if the titles mentioned them, but there are so many. I have really been working on improving my sleep. I wear blue-blocking glasses after dinner, have a weighted blanket, wear a sleep mask, and keep my room cool. I still tend to wake up a lot. I recently started using the Nutrisense CGM and I have high blood glucose levels during the night, even after they had been low all day. Even when I stopped eating by 6 PM, though they are somewhat lower when I do, they still will go up into the 120s during the night, even though when I go to bed, it will be in the 90s. I go to bed around 10 PM, I eat low carb 30 to 50 grams, moderate fat, 80 to 100 grams, and higher protein, 130 grams. As I am still looking to lose 10 pounds and I lift heavy weights to build muscle and I also do HIIT, do you have some information as to why blood glucose levels can rise so much at night? By the way, I enjoy your podcasts and have learned many useful things to help me with my IF lifestyle that I've been doing on and off for two years. Mostly, the best tip I picked up was not too long ago when it was brought out in your podcast that just the taste of something sweet, even Stevia, could spike insulin as the body anticipates food will be arriving. I usually drink tea and coffee with Stevia while fasting. Now I'm trying to forego the Stevia and have noticed I have much less hunger on my fasts. Thanks so much.”

Melanie Avalon: All right. Thanks so much, Francesca, for your questions. A few things to touch on. Actually, on our website, ifpodcast.com, you don't have to go through and look through all the titles, there's actually a search bar at the top, especially now that we have transcripts and all the show notes. If you search in the search bar, it'll pull up specific episodes that talk about it. Like I said, because we have the transcripts now, it really should pull it up if we've ever talked about it. Well, we only started the transcripts sort of recently, so it'll only search for the transcripts for the past few probably months or so. We haven't talked about Oura ring lot, and that's because I just recently got one, but oh my goodness, I am so obsessed with it. I'll put a link in the show notes because it will have aired by the time this episode comes out, the interview that I did with the founder, Harpreet Rai, that I actually really, really do recommend it.

I was really hesitant to get one for the longest time because I'm hesitant about information overload. I didn't want something telling me all the time, like if I was failing, or I didn't want to always be so aware of everything all the time and get all in my head about my health biomarkers because basically Oura ring, it measures your sleep cycles, your heart rate, your heart rate variability, your body temperature, your respiration, your activity levels. But actually, this is what I talked about in the interview with the founder, it is so comforting, in the way that it talks to you, it basically just gives you the information about your body and makes recommendations for how to tackle your day, how to make yourself better, when you should rest, when you should go harder, it's very empowering. That's how I would describe it. If you are a night person like me, it's not going to try to force you to become a morning owl. It's going to recommend that you go to bed at times that are actually pretty late, which is really exciting. Mine tells me that I should go to bed at like 1:30 AM.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it knows.

Melanie Avalon: It knows. Yeah. I think the software is designed to, if it thinks you should be going to bed earlier, I think it will try to gradually nudge you there by slowly encouraging you to go to bed early and earlier, but I'm pretty sure my Oura ring is never going to tell me to go to bed at 10 PM. Yeah, long story short, I really recommend it. Gin, maybe you can try one someday.

Gin Stephens: Maybe.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe, maybe.

Gin Stephens: When they come up with a smaller one. I don't like big rings. It's big.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it is big.

Gin Stephens: My friend, Sheri, has one that was here, and I kept staring at hers. I meant to try it on, but I forgot.

Melanie Avalon: I don't even really think about it, but people do ask me about it a lot, like, “What is that?” Does it look that strange? I guess so.

Gin Stephens: I don't think it looks strange. I think it's also the way my fingers are shaped, I have short stubby fingers and they don't look good with chunky rings. You know how some fingers look terrible with certain kind of rings? It looks too weird on my hand.

Melanie Avalon: That makes sense.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I've short stubby hands.

Melanie Avalon: He said in the future-- I'm really excited, might start partnering with some jewelry companies to make branded ones.

Gin Stephens: All right, I could get behind on that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, for listeners, I'll put a link in the show notes to the interview that I did with the founder. Oh, that was something I meant to mention at the beginning of the episode. I thought about this with her questions about the CGM. I released this week that Gin and I are recording my interview with Dr. Benjamin Bikman all about insulin. I knew it was a good interview, but I'm blown away by the response to it. The amount of feedback I'm getting from listeners, they're just obsessed. So many people have told me they listened to it multiple times that they've gone on the website and read the transcript that they immediately bought his book. For listeners that are interested in insulin that comes up all the time on the show, definitely check out that interview. It's two hours, but it's all things insulin, so that's really great.

Then, the Nutrisense CGM, the continuous glucose monitor, that is something that a lot of people seem to experience when they get the CGM is surprises in what their blood sugar is doing that they might not have anticipated. I don't know if it was Francesca who asked this exact question in my group or on my Instagram, but somebody asked me this exact question really recently, I think it was a different listener. A lot of people have experienced this as well, where they get the rising blood sugars in the evening, like while sleeping. It's hard to know because there could be a lot of things causing that. It could be a hormonal thing. I feel like it's most likely, in my opinion, probably a hormonal thing.

My suggestion, though, and this is not specific, but play around with your eating window and what you're eating and see how it affects things. Also focusing on your sleep, but it sounds like she's doing a lot to work on our sleep. She does the weighted blanket, the sleep mask, and the room cool. Oh, and she says she tends to wake up a lot. Yeah, it could be a sleep issue. Really just anything you can do to continue to support your sleep and then play around the food and the timing and see what happens, it sounds like she's an experimenter like myself. I will also put a link in the show notes to the interview that I did with the founder of Nutrisense, Kara Collier, because we did a really deep dive into CGMs. That was a lot of information. Gin, do you want to jump in.

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's great. It is so interesting now that we have CGMS, people were not measuring their blood glucose all night long. People just weren't doing it. People didn't know what it was doing. Now we're seeing it, it's hard to know what's normal, you know what I'm saying?

Melanie Avalon: When I first started using it, I was surprised by the very severe drops in blood sugar that I was getting, and that's what I was talking with another CGM app, Levels, about it. They were saying there's not actually like a lot of literature or studies on-- we don't actually know what is normal for nighttime blood sugar levels. It's what you just said.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because just thinking about it, when would they have been testing people's blood sugar? Well, not continuously during the night while you're sleeping.

Melanie Avalon: I think if there are surprises, I'm not 100% certain about this, but just from my conversation with Tom at Levels, it seems it's likely that if it does tend to be not what we expect, that people's levels might drop lower.

Gin Stephens: That's what mine did. Mine dropped lower than I thought it should, or would, or I was like, “Wow, that's a surprise.”

Melanie Avalon: That's the opposite problem that Francesca is experiencing. But, yeah, so definitely play around with things and see what happens, and definitely feel free to report back. I will say, though, she says it goes up to the 120s, which it's hours and hours after she's eaten, which is weird that it's going up that high, but that's not crazily high.

Gin Stephens: And she's eating low carb.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Which makes me think maybe it's a cortisol thing, because cortisol increases blood sugar and interferes with sleep, and she has trouble sleeping, so it could be that your cortisol is spiking at night, raising your blood sugar, waking you up. A lot of people find-- her doing low carb, they find when they bring back carbs, that they sleep better because of how it hormonally affects them. I know you're really liking doing the lower carb approach, but you might want to consider either trying carb ups, cyclical keto, so having a carb up day, or trying a higher carb, lower fat approach.

Gin Stephens: All right. Yep. Good stuff.

Melanie Avalon: One last thing. Also, she's doing a lot of exercise too. She's doing a lot, so she might actually benefit from some carbs is what I'm thinking.

Gin Stephens: Maybe so, yeah. All right.

Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Vicki. The subject is “Iron Man Training.” Vicki says, “I love your podcast and really enjoy listening to it on my long runs. I currently am doing 18:6 IF most days. I get up and ride my trainer from 3:10 AM to 4 AM.” Oh my goodness, sorry, this is just me. 3:10 AM, that's so early. She says, “I am at work at 4:40 and I'm off at 1 or 2. I work at Trader Joe's, so I'm always active. In January, I will start Iron Man training again, which means in addition to my short workout in the morning, I will be running, riding, or swimming for two hours after work, and one day a week will be riding for five to six hours and a long run, 15 plus miles one day a week. I've done seven Iron Man distances, so I am not new to the training, but I am new to IF during training, and I'm really not trying to lose weight as I am 5’4”, 125 pounds. Any suggestions? Should I eat something small before my afternoon workout? Maybe shorten my fasting to 16:8? I'm not really sure I can ride six hours losing lots of fluids with nothing but water. Maybe take that day off? I really love all the benefits of IF, but I'm not sure how I'm going to make it worthwhile training. I would love your thoughts, and if you do address this, can you please let me know what episode as I am only on episode 19. Thank you so much. You ladies are fabulous.” I will speak really quickly to her last thing. We don't email after when we have your question on the show, so I'm sorry, you have to keep listening to save-- if the question comes on. So hopefully, Vicki heard this.

Gin Stephens: All right, so I have an episode of Intermittent Fasting Stories for people to listen to if they're interested in long-distance endurance athletes who do intermittent fasting. I interviewed someone named Lisa Glick for Episode 121. If you just go to Google and type in Intermittent Fasting Stories Episode 121, or Intermittent Fasting Stories Lisa Glick, either of those will take you to where you can find or you can just go to any podcast app, find Episode 121. Lisa talks about how she trains and runs and how intermittent fasting fits in with all of that. She basically has found that she has better endurance and her recovery time is better, thanks to intermittent fasting. She talks about how she makes it work, so listen to that episode.

Melanie Avalon: What does she do?

Gin Stephens: I can't recall exactly step by step. That episode came out November 12. It means I talked to her in about probably August or September, so I remember that she talked about what she does, but I can't tell you specifically, exactly.

Melanie Avalon: Do you remember if she lengthened her window or anything like that?

Gin Stephens: I know that she does not use the goo and things like that. She does not use stuff like that. She runs and works out in the fasted state.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, awesome. I will speak really quickly to the fluids. If Vicki is looking for electrolytes, I really, really recommend-- and I don't know when this episode is coming out, we probably still have a code with them for-- I'm pretty sure we will, Robb Wolf makes LMNT, which is an electrolyte mix and their unflavored one is completely clean fast approved. It's just electrolytes and water and it was specifically calculated to address electrolyte needs for people fasting or on ketogenic diets. I really, really recommend it. This offer ended yesterday, but hopefully it's still up, I think it might be, I'm going to see if I can get it extended for February. The link is drinklmnt.com. D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IFPODCAST. At least in January, you could get a free sampler pack which included eight packets of LMNT, two raw unflavored, that's the one that's clean, fast friendly, two citrus, two raspberry and two orange. By the way, the citrus one apparently is really great for margaritas as a mix. Also, you just pay $5 shipping, and you will get that all free. If you don't like it, they'll also refund you the shipping. If that offer is not still going, I'm sure there's probably going to be some sort of offer at that link. That's definitely something to try.

Then, just my thoughts about it is, I definitely think Iron Man or really intense marathons and all of these athletic endeavors can be paired with fasting. I think fasting is really supportive to these type of things because of the fat-burning state that you are put into. I think most people don't need to pre-fuel with food. That said, I think if you are doing that, a lot of people probably will benefit what Vicki was thinking of extending the eating window, you might find it's just not possible and one meal a day to adequately support yourself based on your own personal needs. Then also, this is a little bit-- I don't know if this is controversial, but I do know a lot of people in the Ketogains community, when they're doing really intense specific training, they actually will take a tiny bit of pure dextrose before. I can't really speak to that, but if you go on Facebook and join the Ketogains Facebook group, there's a lot of talk in there about that. And that's if you're specifically ketogenic, I think.

Also, I actually really recommend Siim Land’s book, Stronger by Stress. I think it's that one that has a really good overview. One of his books, I'm pretty sure that one did, had a really good overview of how to with training and muscle building and different things, how to work with that with fasting. So, yes, we can put links to all of those resources in the show notes, but I think the biggest idea to tackle, is that you can definitely do stuff fasted, but you might need to adjust your eating window and everything surrounding it and your carb levels and definitely want to make sure that you're taking care of electrolytes.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and you can figure out what feels right to you. Listen to Lisa Glick’s episode, see what she does, tinker around with what you're doing, too. Maybe what works for Lisa is going to feel wrong for you. You’ve got to see.

Melanie Avalon: Also, I am just super in awe of Vicki. I was reading that question, I was like, “Oh my goodness. This is so much stuff.” Awesome.

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In today's world, we're way overexposed to blue light. While blue light is energizing, we're not supposed to be seeing it 24/7. It can raise cortisol, stress levels, create tension and headaches, disrupt your sleep, and so much more. Of course, there are a lot of “blue light blocking glasses” on the market these days, Andy Mant, the founder of BLUblox, he personally realized how incredible blue light blocking glasses were for him personally. So, then he did something crazy and actually tested all the brands on the market to see if they actually were blocking blue light like they said they were. They weren't really. That's why he took things into his own hands to create glasses that would block the blue light you need to be blocking to truly have the healthiest relationship possible with light. That's also why he made BLUblox light blocking glasses in a lot of different versions.

They have clear computer glasses you can wear all day while looking at the computer. They have their SummerGlo lens that block the draining form of blue light while still allowing in some of the energizing wavelengths. They're also tinted with a special yellow color, scientifically shown to boost mood. And, of course, they have their Sleep+ lens, you can put those on a bed and it's just like, bam, tired. At least that's the way it works for me because actually blue light can block melatonin production, which helps us naturally fall asleep.

Also, get their Sleep REMedy Mask. Oh, my goodness, I use it every single night. It gives you complete blackout while still putting no pressure on your eyes, like you wear it, and you can open your eyes completely, and it's completely black. It's mind blowing. In case you're wondering, I'm still not supposed to be wearing glasses, but I ordered this weird contraption head thing to hold the glasses over my eyes because I just really need the blue light blocking glasses in my life. These glasses also come in a huge array of styles so you don't have to feel like a weirdo biohacker like me. You can really get any style or frame to fit your personal style. You can shop with us at blublox.com, that's B-L-U-B-L-O-X dotcom and use the code, IFPODCAST, to get 15% off. Something else amazing, for every pair of glasses you buy, BLUblox donates a pair of glasses to someone in need. The glasses can also come in prescription made to order. Again, that's blublox.com with the coupon code, IFPODCAST, for 15% off. All right, now back to the show.

Gin Stephens: We have a question from Samantha Tuff, and the subject is “Whole Foods Sweeteners, Sugar versus Aspartame, Rick Johnson.” She says, “Hi ladies, I am still loving the podcast, the discussions and the banter. Thank you for educating me in such an enjoyable way. I'm so glad I stumbled into the IF lifestyle. I listened to Episode 149 on fructose and upon your recommendation, listen to Peter Attia’s interview with Rick Johnson. So much good info, but I was curious about your thoughts on his comparison between Coke and Diet Coke. His personal recommendation, including his choice for his own children, is diet soda over regular soda. This surprised me. We are a fairly antisugar family. We limit and restrict sweet intake as much as possible while still enjoying holidays and birthdays. At parties, our children choose cake as they understand it's a treat or an indulgence, but on the off chance that we indulge, I like to choose the best option possible. I was surprised to hear a doctor prefer the diet product. I would think that all of those sugar is not ideal, it is still a more natural option than aspartame. Your thoughts?

He also compares maple syrup to high fructose corn syrup. I thought it would be a more natural sweetener, therefore a better option for sweetening or baking. Do you have an opinion on honey? Basically, I want to educate my children, but still give them treats now and again, but with the best possible options. I would love your thoughts on different sweetener options used for baking special occasions, or heaven forbid everyday use. Thanks in advance for your time. All the best to you both. Thanks, Sam Tuff.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Sam. Thanks so much for your question. Rick Johnson, he is one of the major figures really in the anti-fructose movement, so he's very much not a fan of fructose.

Gin Stephens: Is he like never eat fruit also?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, he's not a fan of fruit much either. I actually really do want to interview him, because I'm like, seriously, I don't know why I'm so obsessed with fructose and fruit and think about it way more than I should. I feel the fructose studies are, I don't know-- I want to read his book and interview him and flesh out some of his thoughts. It's been a while since I've listened to that interview but I think I do remember him talking about that, so I'm just going to tell you my personal thoughts on everything and then you can do what resonates with you. In general, I think that I'm not a fan of artificial sweeteners at all.

Gin Stephens: Ditto, ditto, ditto.

Melanie Avalon: For a lot of reasons. By artificial sweeteners, I'm not including in that stevia, or monk fruit. I'm also not actually including like xylitol or erythritol. I'm talking about aspartame, saccharin.

Gin Stephens: NutraSweet is aspartame. Splenda is-- what is that one?

Melanie Avalon: Sucralose?

Gin Stephens: Yes, it's sucralose.

Melanie Avalon: And saccharin. Those three I'm not a fan of. I think the biggest problem with them is what they do to our gut microbiome potentially, just how they're processed by the body, they're not natural. They tell your body that sweet’s coming in, but then you're not eating sweets, so it's confusing. I just do not advocate those at all.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I agree to the point that there are very few things that I will not put into my body. If I know something has aspartame or sucralose, I will not put it into my body. I'll eat a Dorito, but I will not drink a diet soda.

Melanie Avalon: I'm not advocating this, because I don't think it's the ideal option. If I was forced for some reason, the only time I would choose maybe the artificial sweetener over sugar would be if I had just eaten a super, super high-fat diet. Maybe I was trying to do keto and I was eating all the fat, and then I was like, “Oh, I just need something sweet,” and I had to choose between something with sugar or something with an artificial sweetener, I think in that situation, I might choose an artificial sweetener just because I'm super concerned about combining all of that fat and sugar at the same time. Either way, they're not ideal and if that were the case, hopefully, I would choose something like stevia or monk fruit which in the eating window. I don't personally really eat stevia or monk fruit or xylitol or erythritol. For some people they can work, as far as honey and maple syrup and things like that. If I had to choose something to sweeten food with, I would you sweetening it with honey, maple syrup, coconut sugar, especially if it was a baked good situation where you're making your own-- and that's what she's asking about making treats and things like that. That's definitely what I would choose. Actually, because right now I'm reading Terry Wahls’ book-- was it in her book? I think it was. Some book that I was reading really recently, it was actually talking about the potential benefits of maple syrup. I don't remember if it was--

Gin Stephens: And raw honey. I eat raw honey.

Melanie Avalon: When it comes to honey, there actually are potentially a lot of benefits to honey. I think it depends on--

Gin Stephens: Like manuka honey.

Melanie Avalon: Manuka honey has potentially a ton of benefits. Most “normal honey” gets its benefits from the way that it creates hydrogen peroxide, I think, which is like an antiseptic in your body, so it can be antiviral and antifungal. Manuka honey in addition to that actually has some property that also does all that stuff, but it's not by the hydrogen peroxide. That's why it's called the-- what does it the non-hydrogen peroxide potential? It's called the non-peroxide antibacterial activity, which I always think is funny. Yeah, basically, everything I just said. I would choose when baking and things like that, the honey and the maple syrup, coconut sugar, I would just avoid artificial sweeteners at all costs. If you want to go the sweet route that doesn't have actual sugar, I would choose-- not while fasting, but in the eating window, I would choose stevia, monk fruit, potentially erythritol or xylitol, those last two can create GI distress in some people.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yes. The sugar alcohols. Yes, they did for me. [laughs] Oh, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Some people tolerate them really well, and especially in baking, I think they can be subbed out-- one of them, either both of them or one of them is like a one to one sub out for sugar.

Gin Stephens: I think erythritol is.

Melanie Avalon: Erythritol? Yeah. There's also some blends that are like erythritol, monk fruit. There's a lot of different, if you go to Whole Foods, there's an array of options. I think it's really just about finding what works for you. Also, that you might find the benefit of if you're baking, having some of the honey and maple syrup, but then maybe also getting some of the sweet potential by baking with substitutes as well. I'm just so haunted by this fructose question, I think, because the Ray Peat people are so like pro fructose, and I'm opposite ideas.

Gin Stephens: I just have a really hard time with anybody who claims that real foods are so terrible, like fruit. I have a really hard time with the claim that humans are not supposed to eat fruit, or any other real food that people have been eating for thousands of years. I have a really hard time with that. Maybe in the modern world where everything is crazy, but there's a lot of difference between high fructose corn syrup and an apple.

Melanie Avalon: Huge difference.

Gin Stephens: There's so many comments. I was reading something today, and it talked about-- I mean, we know about vitamins, we know about certain phytochemicals, we know about certain things in foods, but we know so little about what's really in that apple that's good for us. We haven't isolated and identified all the things. There are thousands of compounds in that apple that are doing things in our bodies that are positive. You can't be like, “Well, that compound is the one good one and that's the one bad one,” no. It's synergistic. It works together. Dr. Fung says it really well in The Obesity Code. He says the antidote is packed in there with it, the antidote to the poison. Your body knows what to do with the whole apple. Whereas if you just give it high fructose corn syrup, your body's like, “What is this nonsense?”

Melanie Avalon: I think probably the reason that fruit gets so demonized is because the studies on high fructose corn syrup are-- what it does is really, really terrible. I think it's really easy to want to extend that to fruit because we think fruit and fructose, but it's just not the same in real food form. Send me one if you find one, I have not found a study showing problems with fruit, in its natural form.

Gin Stephens: To be honest, if I was going to give what something to my child right now in 2021, if I had a kid over and wanted to give them a soda, I would actually choose-- instead, I would just give them a flavored sparkling water. They have so many of those now. A good high quality or a kombucha. Something like that.

Melanie Avalon: A nonalcoholic one.

Gin Stephens: Well, definitely, I would not choose an alcoholic kombucha, but I think there's so many things like that you can give them. I would not give them either a regular Coke or a Diet Coke. If I absolutely wanted to give them something like a Coke, it would be like a Mexican Coke because they have real sugar, not corn syrup.

Melanie Avalon: The Ray Peat people, they're actually really pro-fueling on sugar. They actually drink Mexican Coke.

Gin Stephens: Pepsi Throwback, I don't even know if they still make that. It was Pepsi Throwback, and you could buy it everywhere. It was made with real sugar. I bought that for years. I haven't bought it in years now though, but for a period of time that's what I chose when I wanted to have a soda, Pepsi Throwback.

Melanie Avalon: I remember listening to that interview with Rick Johnson. One of the most fascinating takeaways that I took from it was-- that's where I learned that fructose is the only sugar that actually costs calories to use because it has to be converted to something and then converted again, and then there's like an energy loss in that process. Which was really interesting. Which I remember he said that, and I was like, “Well, that makes me feel like a really high fruit diet.” [laughs] -the way to go.

Gin Stephens: Especially if it's real fruit. You're eating the whole fruit, I think. I think that's important. That's what another thing I got out of The Obesity Code, eat the whole fruit.

Melanie Avalon: There was also something about, if you just immediately burn sugar or carbs, it releases or provides X amount of energy, but if you convert it to glycogen and then burn it later, both of those conversion processes burn energy to do.

Gin Stephens: Okay, [unintelligible [00:57:50] That makes sense. But, yeah, I actually use maple syrup and honey in baking. My bread recipe has honey in it. I use raw honey, and I made these amazing pecan bars for-- Oh, by the way, how do you say that? I bet you say pe-caan, do you say pee-can?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: I made pecan bars that were sweetened with maple syrup over the holidays. They were so good. They were on like a shortbread crust, instead of like a pie. It was like pecan pie, but instead it was bars, and it was on a shortbread crust with maple syrup instead of corn syrup. Lots and lots of pecans. It was absolutely delicious.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just searching through Terry Wahls’ book. I don't think it was in her books. So, I don't want to misquote her. I don't remember-- It was something I was reading recently about maple syrup. It's probably going to come to me once we hang up, but it was some unique benefit in it.

Gin Stephens: I will say that Christmas morning, we were at my dad's and my stepmother had made breakfast and she had this orange juice. One of my nieces was like, “This orange juice tastes really different.” Chad had some and I tasted it and I was like, “Oh my God, what's wrong with this juice?” It was the diet juice, and it was sweetened with artificial sweeteners. I was like, “Stop drinking that, Chad.” [crosstalk] Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It was orange juice. Do they take out the sugar and add in?

Gin Stephens: I don't know what they do but it was diet orange juice. Oh my God, it tasted like poison.

Melanie Avalon: That is crazy.

Gin Stephens: I don't drink orange juice. We don't have it in the house. For example, if I was really sick, when I'm sick, I crave orange juice.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe it's because of the vitamin C?

Gin Stephens: Probably. I crave orange juice with pulp. If I had a sore throat, I would send Chad to the grocery store to get like a high-quality orange juice with the pulp in it and I would just drink it. That just makes me feel so much better. That stuff, it was orange watery grossness with artificial something.

Melanie Avalon: I think we talked about this before.

Gin Stephens: What?

Melanie Avalon: The one fruit that like I loathe.

Gin Stephens: Is it oranges?

Melanie Avalon: Like instant headache. I cannot even.

Gin Stephens: Oranges gives you a headache? I don't remember that.

Melanie Avalon: I remember growing up, I didn't understand how people could eat oranges because you know when you're a kid, you feel like if you're reacting that way other people must react. In my head, it was oranges, headaches. Instant headache. If I think about an orange, like I'm thinking about orange right now and I'm getting a headache. There must be some compound in it that my body hates.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, there must be.

Melanie Avalon: Like loathes. Oh, I thought what I was going to say really quick, I have a theory that I want to share with you.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: It never occurred to me, but I'm wondering if this is the case. Often, well, not all the time. I have seen people report and somebody reported this in my Facebook group the other day, which is what made me think of it. Sometimes, people will do like whole foods diets and they'll feel they aren't ever really satisfied and then they'll binge on conventional food, they'll feel full for the first time. Have you seen that? I see that a lot.

Gin Stephens: No. You're saying that they switch over to a whole foods diet, they don't feel satisfied?

Melanie Avalon: They don't even have to binge, but they'll eat like-- usually it's like a flour-based thing, like cake or cookies or something, and then they'll feel full.

Gin Stephens: I wonder if someone has-- if they're limiting natural starches. For example, for me, I talked about that I'm doing the Zoe from PREDICT 3, I'm eating according to my recommendations. If I don't eat something starchy, I don't feel satisfied. Beans, that's why I'm eating so many beans because I feel so full from beans. If I were eating everything else, but no beans, I think I'd be hungry.

Melanie Avalon: I'll have to see. I feel like sometimes this also happens with people who are eating sweet potatoes and stuff like that. It could be that. My initial theory used to always be that it was a stress response thing. Maybe they're doing low carb, and then they have this high carb, like floury-type thing and they finally feel full. It's an insulin and a stress response thing. I was thinking about it, I wonder if it's because flour is fortified with vitamins. Maybe if sometimes we're not absorbing nutrients, we're not getting enough nutrients, and maybe that that high dose of vitamins. I know they're synthetic, but in a concentrated form. I wonder if that hit temporarily makes you feel full. Nobody's ever brought this up, but I was just thinking about it that maybe that's the case.

Gin Stephens: The vitamins, because you weren't absorbing that? That’s an interesting theory.

Melanie Avalon: Fortified foods.

Gin Stephens: I don't know. I am very skeptical about the fortification itself of those things, because I'm not sure it's a good quality fortification, you know what I'm saying? I'm not sure our bodies can really absorb them.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think it's a good thing at all.

Gin Stephens: I don't know that your body's like, “Oh, good, the vitamins and nutrients I was looking for.” I'm not sure those are well absorbed and utilized.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just wondering if maybe sometimes if people have been following a whole foods diet for a long time, if they're lacking in one of the vitamins and if their body is really craving that vitamin, if there is the potential that when they eat this floury food that they are actually-- because of gut issues and nutrient depletion of modern food, if they're just able to temporarily maybe absorb that vitamin and they get that.

Gin Stephens: Definitely is filling some kind of void, obviously. For me, it's that my body has to have starches for satiety, like I have to. The starchy beans. By the way, guess how many grams of fiber I ate yesterday? I hate to count anything, but you have to put it in the app to get your score. I want you to just guess how many grams of fiber I ate.

Melanie Avalon: It's probably the grams of protein that I-- was it like 200?

Gin Stephens: No, it was 73. I was like, I wonder what the recommendation is, I don't know. The recommendation is 35, and it's like, “Be cautious if you go over 70, that could be too much fiber.”

Melanie Avalon: I wonder how much I eat every day because I eat so much fruit. I feel I probably eat 40 or 50.

Gin Stephens: Well, 73. I ate 73 grams of fiber yesterday. I had lentils at one point, then later I had black beans.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. We are so different.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I feel so full and satisfied. It's really important. It's weird that I'm not having-- it because my body doesn't clear the fat well, so I'm not having-- I would normally throw some cheese and some sour cream on there, but it's always like, “Nope, too much fat.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Is that app-- Is it just for the study? Can anybody download it?

Gin Stephens: You have to have done the study because that's how it does. Yeah, because it doesn't know what to recommend. It's personalized to me. That's what's so interesting. A bunch of the moderators have done it as well and we're comparing our scores and they're different. My score for an avocado might be different than my friend, Roxy's, score for an avocado, or also, how much fat my body can handle is different than how much, because Roxy is-- she clears that well, so she gets different scores. She can put more avocado and eggs and whatever on her whatever it is she's eating, than I can. I can eat it, it's just a matter of the way I combine it and stack it. Like last night, I was having black beans and I wanted to put a whole avocado on top, and the meal scored high. When I put it into my day, it lowered my whole day score because it was too much fat all stacked together. I had to go in and instead of a whole avocado, I just ate half of the avocado, and then it was higher.

Melanie Avalon: Have you had nutritional yeast?

Gin Stephens: I have.

Melanie Avalon: That's why I thought about the fortified thing because I recently bought it and I am blown away.

Gin Stephens: Do you feel good eating it?

Melanie Avalon: Well, yes and no. The thing I'm blown away by is the nutrient panel. I'm just blown-- I'm like, “This is the highest source of all of these vitamins that I think I've ever--" I think it might be the most nutrient-dense food that there is, now that I think about it. I might research this. It's just vitamins, it's like all it is. It's like these yeasts just crave vitamins.

Gin Stephens: It really adds a great, like umami flavor to thing.

Melanie Avalon: Tastes divine.

Gin Stephens: Yep. I had it recently when Cal and Kate were here. Kate's vegetarian and one of the meals that I got from Green Chef, it was a vegetarian meal and the nutritional yeast was in something,

Melanie Avalon: It's been making me feel a lot fuller. The thing is, I feel I get a little bit of brain fog from it. I know it's a deactivated yeast. It's not like candida or anything like that. People can still react to it as if it were an active yeast. I feel it might give me a little bit of brain fog, but I will say for listeners, I'll put a link in the show notes to the brand that I've been buying because you want to make sure that you don't get the fortified version because most nutritional yeast, like almost all of it, is fortified because it's basically super high. Like I said, I'm blown away. All the B vitamins except B12, iron, molybdenum, selenium, one serving is like 40% of your iron. It's crazy. They're usually fortified with B12, because they want it to be a complete B supplement thing for vegans. I really, really don't recommend fortification with B12, which is folic acid, because it's not properly used by the body, it can interfere with their own use of B12 or folate. There's two brands. Well, the brand I really like is [unintelligible [01:07:33] I'll put a link to it in the show notes. Sorry, that was a tangent. That's why I thought though that maybe there was something to do with vitamins and fortified foods.

Gin Stephens: Maybe that's an interesting theory. I don't know. I just know that. If I don't get--

Melanie Avalon: Starch.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I just can't be satisfied.

Melanie Avalon: Have you seen Hamilton?

Gin Stephens: I have not. [unintelligible [01:07:53] said that before. I have not seen Hamilton. I don't like musicals.

Melanie Avalon: I know there's a song called Satisfied. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. The show notes which will have a full transcript will be at ifpodcast.com/Episode198. You can submit your own questions to the podcast. Just go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. Or, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. You can follow us on Instagram. I saw that Gin put a picture of her sauna on Instagram. I am about to upload today a video. I'm going to do a video on how to do Wim Hof breathing. So I am loving Instagram. It's so fun, so you can follow us there by our names. I think that is everything. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on this show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Jan 24

Episode 197: Weight Set Point, Indigestion, Hydrochloric Acid (HCL), Fasting Burps, Coordinating Family Meals on OMAD, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

#140 – Gerald Shulman, M.D., Ph.D.: A masterclass on insulin resistance—molecular mechanisms and clinical implications

Welcome to Episode 197 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: Becky - how do I know my maintenance weight?

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Listener Q&A: Jennifer - “Question”

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 197 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

Hi friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get free electrolyte supplements, some of which are clean fast approved, all developed by none other than Robb Wolf. Have you been struggling to feel good with low carb, paleo, keto, or fasting? Have you heard of something called the keto flu? Here's the thing. The keto flu is not actually a condition. Nope. Keto flu just refers to a bundle of symptoms. Headaches, fatigue, muscle cramps and insomnia that people experience in the early stages of keto dieting.

Here's what's going on. When you eat a low-carb diet, your insulin levels drop. Low insulin, in turn, lowers the production of the hormone, aldosterone. Now, aldosterone is made in the kidneys and it helps you retain sodium. So, low aldosterone on a keto diet makes you lose sodium at a rapid rate. Even if you are consciously consuming electrolytes, you might not be getting enough. In particular, you need electrolytes, especially sodium and potassium, in order for nerve impulses to properly fire. Robb Wolf, who as you guys know is my hero in the holistic health world, worked with the guys at Ketogains to get the exact formulation for electrolyte supplements to formulate LMNT Recharge, so you can maintain ketosis and feel your best. LMNT Recharge has no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no junk. They're used by three Navy SEALs teams. They are the official hydration partner to Team USA weightlifting, they're used by multiple NFL teams and so much more.

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One more thing before you jump in. Are you concerned about aging? Well, thankfully, fasting is super incredible for its anti-aging benefits. It activates genes in your body called sirtuins, which repair your body and help extend lifespan. Also, during the fast, your body can clean up a lot of harmful chemicals which may be taxing your detoxification systems. In fact, the reason people go gray is because their detox systems start producing a lot of hydrogen peroxide when dealing with toxins. Do you know where a lot of those chemicals come from? Your skincare and makeup. As it turns out, there are 1000s of compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup that Europe has banned due to their toxic nature and the US has banned less than 10. When you put these on your skin every single day through your skincare makeup, you're adding to your body's burden and likely aging your skin faster.

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Hi everybody and welcome, this is Episode number 197 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm great. I am officially starting to work on my next book.

Melanie Avalon: Ooh. That is exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is exciting. It is not an intermittent fasting book.

Melanie Avalon: Last time when you wrote Fast. Feast. Repeat-- that book you did start completely afresh, right? Or did you already have anything written?

Gin Stephens: Well, when I started writing that one, I already had a complete outline of it. Yes, I had a complete outline that my literary agent sent out to different publishing houses. Then one of them bought it. It was St. Martin's Press of Macmillan, and so that's how that went. But this time, when you're already a published author with a publishing house, they get-- well, I guess it depends on your agreement. But they get first right of refusal, I guess, I don't know if that's the right publishing lingo, but they get the first chance to say yes to my next book, and my next book--

Melanie Avalon: Who get dibs basically.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. We pitched a few things in a casual way. My editor’s like, “Yeah, write that one.” That's what I'm doing. I'm so excited. I can't talk about much yet, but more to come. I have a very tight deadline.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you do?

Gin Stephens: I do.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. Have you written anything? Or is it like, you’ve got to just start everything now.

Gin Stephens: I’ve got to just start. I've been thinking about it for months. It develops in my mind. Actually, here's what's really funny. I'm not going to announce what it's about yet, but this is based on concepts that I really wanted to write about almost 20 years ago.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I did not know that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I actually have an outline of a book I wanted to write. It's not the same book, but it was a similar concept. I have it from like, gosh, probably almost 20 years ago, like I said. It's a topic that's near and dear to my heart. Just general teaser there.

Melanie Avalon: My correlation to that is Taylor Swift and her most recent album, one of the lines she wanted to write in the song since high school.

Gin Stephens: Love it. Yeah, this is not a topic that's new to my heart, but I haven't written a book about it yet. Like I said, that outline that is in this notebook from so long ago.

Melanie Avalon: I am very excited.

Gin Stephens: This book is not going to be anything like I would have written 20 years ago, obviously. But, yeah, I know, Melanie knows the topic, so I'm very excited about it. People in the intermittent fasting community, I think, will really like it, but also it'll have a broader appeal.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited.

Gin Stephens: Yay, me, too. I have a lot of work to do. I ordered things that I need. I'm like one of those people that needs the right tools. I'm very old school, so I got I've ordered some new toner cartridges for my printer because I do a ton of printing because I like to work from paper. I've ordered some highlighters.

Melanie Avalon: You print out what you're doing and then you--

Gin Stephens: I need paper. I’ve got to have paper. I have old school highlighters. I get those little post-it flags so you can flag things. I got a big file folder, like accordion folder, because I like to file the papers by topic. [laughs] That's how I work.

Melanie Avalon: That's legit.

Gin Stephens: It is. Like I said, I'm old school. When I write my dissertation-- Oh, actually, here's a funny story. Right this today was the day that we're recording this that I submitted my dissertation for approval, it showed up in my Facebook memories.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Isn't that funny? It was either 2008 or 2009, so that's been a long time. When I was writing my dissertation, I just had piles of papers.

Melanie Avalon: It's crazy to think how long Facebook has been around.

Gin Stephens: Facebook, I know.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know why I feel like-- I don't feel like it's still new, but it doesn't feel like it's been around for like that part of my life that long.

Gin Stephens: So, yup, I was new to Facebook, it was 2008. Funny story-- well, I guess it's not a funny story, but I had been in the hospital for 10 days with Cal working on my dissertation, finishing it up because he had just had appendicitis, really bad and it ruptured, and then he had to have a second surgery. We were just there forever, but we spent 10 days in the hospital, got out the day before Christmas Eve, but it really allowed me to finish things up. But Facebook was new to me back then.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, actually, now that you say that, I remember when I first signed up for Facebook, and it was 2008. Yeah, it would have been 2008. So, that is correct.

Gin Stephens: It was 2008 for me, and it's so much fun looking at those memories, but it also is funny that even now so many years later, that's still how I research with my piles of papers and my highlighters, and that's just-- I learn better on paper. I think that we actually have research that shows that the tactile experience of paper, it's different than reading electronically.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It definitely is. I'm just thinking about all the ways I consume media researching everything, like audiobooks versus Kindle versus the physical books. It does feel different.

Gin Stephens: If I really need to learn something, I have to have the paper. I really do better with it. I think that there's, like I said, research that supports that with kids as well. So I hope that we don't think that we should do away with paper books.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. No, 100%. I have an update.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yay. What's your update?

Melanie Avalon: There was something I meant to say, last episode I interviewed Jason Fung.

Gin Stephens: Yay.

Melanie Avalon: It's so exciting. I mentioned you a lot on that show. Just because I was saying that, I mean, we talk about him all the time on this show.

Gin Stephens: Did he say Gin Stephens, who is that?

Melanie Avalon: No, he did not. [laughs] I realize I just mentioned you, I didn't even say Gin Stephens. I just mentioned you, I assumed he already knew who you were. He probably does. But I remember after I said it, I was like, “Oh, I guess I just sort of assumed that he knows who you are.” Yeah, it was really, really great. It's funny because when I first started my other show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, I really wanted to bring him on. I assumed at that time that when I brought him on, it would be about fasting, because that's his thing, but his newest book, as I mentioned before and as listeners might know, is about cancer. So, that was what the episode was about. It was really, really fascinating, really. I feel listeners will learn a lot.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's fabulous. I will always be a Jason Fung fan.

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. He's so nice, too.

Gin Stephens: He really is. Yeah, he seems like such a nice guy.

Melanie Avalon: He's just a really nice person. So that was quite an honor. I have one other really tiny little thing. You know how last episode we were talking about, the listener had the question about not being able to handle carbs and glucose. We were talking about like fructose and glucose and glycogen and fat and all of that. I mentioned that I was listening to an episode with Peter Attia that basically went deep, deep, deep into the metabolism of all those things. After we finished recording, I was like, “You know what, I should probably finish listening to this episode.” I did. You know how I always talk about that when they do studies on people overeating carbohydrates that really-- it's only really a tiny amount that becomes fat?

Gin Stephens: Yep. And often that their metabolism increases-- [crosstalk] Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: The speaker who I really am going to try to get on my show, he's a professor at Yale. So, I emailed him last night to his professor email, we shall see. He was talking about that process, but then he was actually saying that and people who are insulin resistant and who have metabolic issues that, it can double like the normal rate of fat from carbs.

Gin Stephens: That makes total sense though, think about that. If you have really, really high levels of insulin, all the time, your body is primed to store more things.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so I felt bad that I felt good because he said that I was like, “Oh, man.” I was like, I've been like saying this whole time, and then Peter Attia asked him. He literally asked him about the studies I had read, he said, “You know that they do these studies that test with overfeeding carbs and it really isn't that much of a change.” Peter wanted to clarify, like, “Is that not the case in insulin resistance?” And he said, “Yeah, it does seem to be more.” I felt a little bit better that I guess, Peter Attia was thinking the same thing as me. The good thing is, he said it can double like the normal amount. The normal amount still isn't that high. It's still I think much harder to gain a lot of extra fat from excess carbs compared to extra fat, given the context.

Gin Stephens: Most people do not just eat excess carbs in isolation, and that is why people are so confused because if you say, “Hey, I eat too many carbs,” so tell me what that looks like. And they'll start naming things like pizza and doughnuts and french fries, which are carbs. Also, fat, people just really are confused by what a carb is, like a cookie. If you said, “Is this a carb or a fat?” People would probably say, “Oh, that cookie is a carb.” No.” It is carbs, but it also has a ton of fat. That's I think what really is confusing. People very rarely eat a high carb, low fat diet.

Melanie Avalon: Where it's actually low fat.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: They didn't discuss this specifically, but I would love to bring them on my podcast. I could just pick his brain so much, but I do wonder, in a really insulin resistant person with metabolic syndrome, I wonder what it would look like if they only ate carbs and way overate, compared to an insulin sensitive person, how much fat could be created?

Gin Stephens: Here's the study we need. We need to compare two groups of people doing the same exact thing, people who are metabolically healthy and lean compared to people who have metabolic syndrome and give them the exact same ratio, and see what happens. That'd be fascinating. You and I could design studies.

Melanie Avalon: We could.

Gin Stephens: I totally could. I joke about this in Feast Without Fear, my second book. I taught elementary kids how to do science fair projects. Controlling your variables is like science fair 101. Fourth graders can get it. I remember reading them when we were doing our science fair unit one year, I read them a nutritional study and the children were able to find the flaws, fourth graders. They're like, “You can't do that. They didn't control the variables” I'm like, “Yes, I get it. Yes.”

Melanie Avalon: It's so hard to in a free-living situation.

Gin Stephens: Well, it is. It's easier with paper airplanes than it is with humans.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The other thing I wanted to clarify, I think this is what I said last time, but I wanted to double clarify because I finished listening to it. His primary theory, this guy, who I really want to interview is that in insulin resistance, first, it's not the liver that becomes insulin resistant, per se, it's the muscles. The muscles throughout our body stop adequately taking up glucose, like blood sugar, sugar from our food, and then the liver becomes insulin resistant. And then everything just goes from there, way worse.

Gin Stephens: All gunked up from there.

Melanie Avalon: He was talking about the massive benefits of exercise for insulin resistance, that is something I was familiar with. But I think I'm realizing more and more how important exercise is because there is non-insulin-dependent glucose uptake into the muscles. Even if you are insulin resistant and can't get glucose into your muscles through the normal mechanism of insulin, you can through exercise. That's why one reason it can be so, so important.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's fascinating. Makes sense. It totally makes sense. Our bodies are amazing. Man, they're not just little simple in/out boxes, there's so much going on.

Melanie Avalon: Also, the evolutionary benefit. Insulin resistance is probably an evolutionary thing. It's our bodies trying to protect us from starvation.

Gin Stephens: Everything our bodies do is to protect us. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It has good intentions, it just goes all wrong.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because we're doing all these wacky things that we think are the right things to do, and they're the opposite. And our body's like, “Let me help you with that.”

Melanie Avalon: And like the body Setpoint, which the interview coming up this week. Good times.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, this show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode197. I'll put links to all that stuff that we just talked about.

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Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yep, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off, we have a question from Becky. The subject is, “How do I know my maintenance weight?” Becky says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, I love your show. Super fun. Thanks. I've been fasting for four and a half months. Now, I usually do a five-hour window. But I am not super strict and sometimes open it up to eight hours, and sometimes tighten it to three. I clean fast all of my fast. It worked fairly well, and I love how I feel, but my results are interesting/confusing. I started at 182 pounds, I'm 5’8” with an athletic build, and very quickly got to the mid 170s. As the weeks went on, my weight loss slowed, though. Interesting to look back at the Happy Scale app and see that it was 2 pounds per week initially, then 1, then 0.7, then 0.5, then 0.3, etc. Now for weeks, it has been point one pound per week. Well, actually for the past couple of weeks, it has been no loss at all, because I've been eating Christmas goodies. Currently, I'm hovering between 168.5 and 170 pounds.

My question is this, how do I know what my final/maintenance weight will be? When I got married 12 years ago, I weighed 167.5 pounds. I looked fantastic and I was super proud of myself. Like I said, I have an athletic build. I've always been a competitive swimmer. I've competed in triathlons and other races for fun. I'm happy with the way I look, and my husband tells me I don't need to lose any more, but I wonder if I should be shooting for a lower weight? Or is it even possible? I wear a size 8, so I think perhaps I'm just a very dense person. Your thoughts/insights would be appreciated. Thank you so much, Becky.”

Gin Stephens: This is such a great question because so many of us get hung up on that number on the scale, which is why I ended up throwing my scale away. I've told this story a million times. I haven't seen a number on the scale since 2017. I haven't seen a number. The question is, how do I know my maintenance weight? The thing that I think is so important is that you can't know. I've seen so many people really, really stress over a number. They get in their minds that they have to weigh-- let's say for you. You said you weighed 167.5, Becky, and you looked fantastic, and you're proud of yourself and your husband thinks you look great where you are right this minute, but you remember 167.5 is a golden weight for you. Even though right now you weigh between 168.5 and 170, which by the way is statistically you're there at the same weight because weight goes up and down. You're just right in there. Even with a margin of error, if you have a different scale, you could weigh exactly the same amount in your scales just weighing you differently. Does that make sense, Melanie? Do you understand what I'm trying to say? There's like a standard error of measurement with any tool or device or anything. Maybe you're 168 to 170 now is the same as your other scale was at 167.5.

My point is that if you decided you had to see 167.5 on the scale in order to be happy, I think you'd be setting yourself up for long term failure and disappointment just because our bodies are naturally going to fluctuate, and so much of it depends on our body composition. If you're super muscular which you say that you are, you've got that athletic build, and you feel great in your body, and you look great in your clothes in your size that you like, I would 100% forget about the number. You could even gain weight on the scale, and lose fat and be leaner, but your weight is higher on the scale. I think you're now at the point where your scale number is meaningless.

Right now take photos of yourself wearing an outfit that you feel great in or even if you have a pair of pants that are a little tight, make those your honesty pants, take photos from all the different angles with those pants on. Then three months from now, take the photos again and compare. I bet you'll find you're a little bit leaner three months from now, but your weight may not change at all on the scale. I would consider that you're right now in your maintenance range, and let your body do what it does with body recomposition over time. You have my permission to never worry about a number again. It's why I love the Shapa scale so much, I just worry about what my overall color trend is doing, and I don't have to see a number. What do you have to say, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I love that. I'm just pondering how crazy technology and the concept of time is because I am going to refer Becky to an episode that I have not recorded but will have aired two days ago or three days ago, last Friday. When this episode comes out, this is a Monday, the Friday that just passed, I will have aired that episode about Setpoint. Although I haven't even recorded it yet, but I anticipate.

Gin Stephens: We're time traveling fasters.

Melanie Avalon: I anticipate I will be talking about a lot of this because what's really interesting is she talks about she saw a very consistent weight loss trend on the Happy Scale with the two pounds, and then 0.7, then 0.5, then 0.3, and now 0.1. And that's something at least Jonathan Bailor who I'm interviewing, he has a documentary coming out in his book, Setpoint something. The word ‘setpoint’ is in the title. As you’re losing weight, a lot of things are happening, so there's less of you, so you lost weight. Automatically, your daily energy expenditure automatically is not going to be as high because the more you weigh the higher daily energy expenditure, so there's that, because we don't know at all, but before I say all of this, I'm not saying, Becky, I agree with everything Gin said, I'm just going into this concept of what might be happening with weight loss slowing down as you lose weight.

The second thing is depending on what you're eating, and depending on your fasting habits and everything like that, a lot of people who are doing conventional typical dieting, so this really doesn't even probably apply to Becky, the body does perceive the weight loss is a negative that it has to combat. So, the metabolism can also slow down so it becomes harder and harder to lose weight, the more and more you lose weight. There is this idea of setpoints that the body reaches where it doesn't really want to lose much weight beyond that. And if you think about it, they also doesn't want to gain much weight beyond that.

Gin Stephens: That's exactly right.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's something he was talking about to reframe, like--

Gin Stephens: Exactly. We've got some people in the group that really just have like, I was talking about. I don't think I really explored it, but they want to see a number on the scale that's-- I don’t know, [unintelligible [00:28:44] 10 pounds lower than they are right now. No matter what they do, they can't see that magic number. Their body is happy where they are. It's not gaining, it's not losing. It's just this is where your body is happy. I really think we need to embrace a point where it becomes easy for our bodies to maintain, and you don't have to stress about it.

Melanie Avalon: You can reframe the setpoints as really working in your favor. Most of the studies that they do on setpoints, people who are chronically dieted down their bodies try really really hard to gain back the weight. Then people who are chronically overfed. I mean, most people gain weight, some people gain a lot of weight. Some people barely gain any weight, but regardless of the amount of weight gain, the body-- I'm pretty sure in all of the studies the body makes compensatory adaption. If you eat way, way over your calories, it's very unlikely that your metabolism is going to slow down from that. You're most likely going to burn more, even if it's not burning enough obviously to mitigate the weight gain, the body still fights it. There'll be a lot more information once I actually record that show, which I'm recording in three days from now, I think. I think Gin answered it really well, because Becky sounds happy with her body.

Gin Stephens: She talks about how when she weighed practically the exact same thing when she got married 12 years ago and looked fantastic. I really think, Becky, you are in your maintenance range, and that's the point I want to keep hammering home. Maintenance range. We're recording this, it's almost New Year's Eve. We're not quite out of the holiday season, I'm pretty sure right now, I'm higher on my maintenance range than I was before Thanksgiving, but that's okay. I am very sure my weight goes up and down within that range and has for all these years. I'm not having to buy bigger clothes and not having to get all new, smaller clothes. Focus on that range idea, instead of a number.

Melanie Avalon: That's one thing I want to ask him is what is the typical amount of pounds for that range? Because he did say in the book that it's about 20 pounds?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised.

Melanie Avalon: That it's pretty hard.

Gin Stephens: I don't think mine fluctuates 20.

Melanie Avalon: Sorry, not that it fluctuates 20 pounds, but there's a 20-pound range that your body is going to fight to stay within.

Gin Stephens: Okay,

Melanie Avalon: So, it's going to be really, really hard to gain more than 20 pounds, it's going to be really, really hard to lose more than 20 pounds. Well, depending on what you're doing. Just basically that that might be the window, no pun intended that you have to work with.

Gin Stephens: That makes sense. It makes me really sad when someone's fighting over 10 pounds, it's really, really hard to force your body to be lower than your body wants to be. I am very lucky, and I know it. But I know that my setpoint, if you will, of where I am right now is where my body likes to be because I've maintained it over all these years, since I lost the weight with intermittent fasting. But if I decided I needed to see 10 pounds down, I would have to work really, really, really hard to do it. Could I do it? I don't know if I could do it. I don't think I could lose 10 more pounds and maintain there without really being miserable. So, I want to be happy.

Melanie Avalon: That's something I do really want to ask him. I've heard this theory floating around that if, and I asked for in my Facebook group, which everybody should join, IF Biohackers. I asked what questions people had about setpoint, and a lot of people wanted to know, there's this idea out there that if you hold a weight for a certain amount of time that your body accepts that new setpoint.

Gin Stephens: Research has shown that in general, we don't know a ton about setpoint, Maybe he's going to say a lot of things that are new, that would be exciting. When I was researching setpoint for Fast. Feast. Repeat., it's still a little nebulous, what you can do to lower that setpoint, that whole diet that I did that was so crazy, the Shangri-La Diet, where you're chugging the oil, his theory. He was a doctor that wrote it. His theory was that when you break the calorie association with taste, or something or other, that it would lower your setpoint. I'm like, “I'm going to lower my setpoint. I'm chugging this oil.” That was so funny.

Melanie Avalon: I'm also thinking the calories in, calories out model is just so not comprehensive. One of the other things in that Peter Attia episode that the guest was talking about which-- this is something I've been familiar with, as well. This is a banned drug that nobody should take because people died from it. But have you heard of DNP?

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just really fascinated by this. It was one of the first anti-obesity drugs, and it was in the 1930s. The way it worked was it basically increased, it's called like uncoupling. Basically, it made cells just burn energy as heat. It basically just told yourself to just burn calories and not-- basically just ratcheted up people's metabolisms to the point that people actually died from it and it was removed from the market. That just goes to show that with signaling of things that your body-- we can eat things, but it says nothing to whether how those cells are going to burn it or not. If they want to, if they have the signaling, which was happening with that drug, for example, or maybe other lifestyle options, I don't know what all leads to that. If they “want to,” they can just burn calories as heat, which I guess is what happens a lot in those overfeeding studies.

Gin Stephens: Yep. I really think that insulin has a lot to do with your setpoint, honestly, I think that people with a high level of circulating insulin are likely to have a high setpoint. As you lower your insulin levels, I think it lowers your setpoint, and do I have like a study, I can pull out that says that? No, but I do think that's instrumental.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, that was one of the things he was saying in the book was that I don't remember exactly. It was something to the effect of people who are thin compared to people who are obese, oftentimes-- well, I guess there is the insulin resistance issue, but as far as their experience of food and the calories they're getting from that, and the energy, it's almost it's like the same, it's just that the body setpoint is different, or the insulin might be playing a factor. What I'm saying is basically, people who are obese might be eating less and doing all the things, but because of their setpoint, or insulin, or whatever it may be, to their body, it won't have the same effect. I'm not saying this very well. It was just a really interesting idea of underweight and overweight people sort of being the same, but the setpoint just being at a different place.

Gin Stephens: There's just so much we still don't know, because the body, it responds to everything. It's not like-- just like you mentioned a little while ago, it's hard to do a study and control the variables with people, because even when you try to control all the variables, your body's got a million other variables back in there. You're like, “I'm going to do this.” But your body's like, “Well, then I'm going to do this.” We don't even know all the things it's doing sometimes. My body might do something different than your body does with the same inputs. It might depend on my insulin levels, or whatever. My gut microbiome, my genetics.

Melanie Avalon: We talked about this before, but you could have a thin person who you would think is more insulin resistant, because they don't gain weight as easily. It can actually be because their fat cells, instead of dividing to form new fat cells to gain weight, they just become inflamed and just get bigger and bigger and bigger and become insulin resistant. But it makes it harder for them to gain weight, compared to people who easily gain weight, but it's because when their fat cells are full, the fat cells divide and form new fat cells, which actually protects them from insulin resistance. It's actually more healthy metabolically, but they're more likely to become overweight, which is really interesting. Basically, with so many things going on behind the scenes-- they think that's one of the things in Asian populations, because Asian populations don't have as much of an obesity problem, but they have a lot of metabolic issues. It's probably a genetic thing where their fat cells don't divide to form new fat cells to protect from an influx of excess calories.

Gin Stephens: That's fascinating.

Melanie Avalon: So many things.

Gin Stephens: Our bodies are great and everything they do are trying to help us.

Melanie Avalon: This is true.

Gin Stephens: That was very interesting. I look forward to talking to you, Melanie, after you talk to him.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, I know. I’ll report back.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. All right. So here we go. The next question is from Samantha, and it is two parts, “Fasting Burps/Supplements in Canada?” She says, “Hello, ladies. You are so great and it's lovely to have your company and great banter to listen to during these interesting times. You often keep me company during home renovations. I've been trying to catch up on the podcast right from the beginning and getting pretty close. Some of the many great tips blur together as I've learned so much, so I was hoping for some advice. I started with 16:8, quickly moved to 19:5, and often stretch as far as 21:3, basically one meal a day. I've thrown a weekly 36-hour fast in a couple of times now just to try it and to rotate my clock if I have brunch plans with family. I feel great and my lifestyle really suits the IF lifestyle. So thank you.

I have had a few typical digestion ups and downs as expected, but tweaking here and there as I go. Right now though, I have odd bloating. There were a few days when I wished I could poke my tummy with a pin to release the pressure. I would give anything for a burp. Some helpful advice from the Facebook groups suggested soda water. I thought it odd to add carbonation to a gassy situation, but it seemed to help a bit. Why? Now for the last few days, I've found myself burping on an empty stomach, no soda. Usually 14 to 20 hours into the fast, I burp repeatedly. I did the baking soda test over a week ago and no burp. Now I burp on an empty stomach. Not enough gas. Too much gas. I'm confused. What's the mechanism problem here?

So far, I've been guilty of making too many changes at once regarding my food choices. It's been hard to track what is good and bad. So, I want to slow the changes down. I've been doing IF for 12 weeks, and I think I'm down about 12 pounds. I'm really happy with the big picture and in it for the long haul. I would love to lose another 10 to 15 pounds, but mostly just want to feel good. So far, I often feel great but sporadically have this bloating and gassy issue. Is there a particular supplement I should try first? Is this an enzyme/probiotic issue or an HCL challenge?

Lastly, I'm Canadian. So, I sure hope all these amazing products and hacks are available up here, too. Otherwise, I may have my research cut out for me. All the best to you both and thanks again for such great podcasting. Thanks, Sam from Canada.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Samantha. Thank you so much for your question. A lot of things going on here. I did research on the drinking carbonated water for stomach issues. The consensus on the internet is that it's really most likely an old wives tale. A lot of the original forms of soda that would have been used were things like ginger soda, so maybe the ginger was having an effect, or something about-- you know how Coca-Cola is made from kola bean? Something about the original form of that with the kola. I'm not sure. The thing that made the most sense to me was that oftentimes GI distress is-- this is something I knew before but I saw it again last night. Gin, did you know that our stomachs don't actually have pain receptors?

Gin Stephens: Well, no, I don't think I did.

Melanie Avalon: Any discomfort we feel is pressure, not pain. A lot of stomach discomfort comes from gas, food, bloating, and the associated pressure from that. Supporting stomach motility can relieve it, and so there's this theory that the carbonation stimulates stomach motility that gets things moving and relieves the stomach. In any case, it seems to mostly be-- I mean, if it works for you, great, but I couldn't really find much science behind it. That said, as far as the cause of the burping, this is actually something-- because I struggled with small intestinal bacterial overgrowth for a long time SIBO. That is an overgrowth of bacteria in your small intestine, so higher up in your GI tract than there should be for that type and amount of bacteria. Something that people experience a lot with SIBO, a lot, is GI distress, burping, gas, especially when they'll go fasting, they will start burping and the consensus in all the people who struggle with it is that it seems to be oftentimes like a die-off effect while fasting of these bacteria releasing gas.

One of the primary bacteria that's associated with GI issues, and especially SIBO and especially IBS with constipation is not actually a bacteria, it's an archaea. It's a methane-producing bacteria called archae bacteria? I'm not really sure. In any case, these little nasties, they release methane gas as a byproduct and they also release it, I don't know when exactly. I feel they're releasing when they're digesting substrates, but then people seem to experience them releasing it while fasting. Like I said, I don't know if that's a die-off effect fact that methane gas and this is getting really granular. That methane gas actually serves as a neurotransmitter in the stomach that further slows motility making things worse.

A lot of people do find that if they can get that under control, though, that it resolves. That's why I love, and so many people in my groups have reported this back, Atrantil. It's a supplement, it's all natural, but it's made with three different compounds. It's some polyphenols and things like peppermint, horse chestnut extract, and one other thing, and they work together to target specifically that type of bacteria. So many people find so much relief. I would definitely 100%, Samantha, consider trying that. You can get it at a lovemytummy.com/ifp, and the coupon code, IFP, will get you 10% off.

As far as the stomach acid, the baking soda. What's going on there is that we should have a certain amount of stomach acid which is really, really important to digest our food. It's really important to keep our stomach free of parasites. It's very antibacterial, anti-parasite, it keeps things clean. A lot of people actually struggle with not enough stomach acid because of the diets that we're eating, our stress levels decrease it. Oftentimes people actually need more stomach acid rather than less. That's why they'll take things like HCL, which is supplemental stomach acid, basically that you can take. I personally use it to support my food. The baking soda test is because baking soda reacts with stomach acid to create, is it carbon dioxide? It releases a gas. [crosstalk] When people do that challenge, it's basically trying to see how much baking soda do you need to create a burp. In theory, if you have adequate stomach acid, when you take the baking soda, you'll burp pretty soon. If you don't ever burp, or if it takes longer than three to five minutes, you might be really low in stomach acid.

What it sounds like to me, Samantha, I would 100% try supporting your digestion. A lot people can try enzymes and/or HCL. Since it seems like you probably have low stomach acid because you never burped with a baking soda. I would start supplementing HCL with your food to help try to make things break down and support motility and I would also try that Atrantil. Yeah, the way they say to take it on the bottle is to take it with meals or before meals, I think. I actually take it in the morning because I do one meal a day and then I take it in the morning fasted and that works really well for me. But I think people also will take it the way the bottle prescribes. I think those two things, and she also wanted to know about Canadian supplements. I don't know if Atrantil ships to Canada. I hope they do. I feel like they might, let us know. HCL, you can definitely get in Canada. Gin, do you have thoughts on all of that? That was a lot.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] I knew you were going to talk about SIBO. I just had a feeling that sounded like SIBO to me. I'm glad that my hunch was right.

Melanie Avalon: Because I've seen that historically in the SIBO communities, they'll experience exactly what Samantha's experiencing. When they do fasting, which tends to really help with SIBO, but they often will get burping while fasting, if they do have those methane-producing organisms.

Gin Stephens: It makes total sense because the gas is coming from somewhere, and it's coming up, so it's coming up through that mechanism from the small intestine. So, that makes total sense.

Melanie Avalon: Something else you could try, Samantha, dietary wise, is a lot of people benefit from a low FODMAP approach. That's basically-- research I've seen, you can get all of your nutrition from it. It's basically just the types of carbs that are less likely to support fermentation from gut bacteria from the gut microbiome. So, that might be a dietary approach to try as well, and your one meal a day. You can get my app, it's called Food Sense Guide, it's at melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide, and it actually has over 300 foods and it shows their FODMAPs. If they're high, low, medium in FODMAPs. Not just FODMAPs, there's 11 other compounds. So, you can see everything else like histamine and oxalates and gluten and lectins. But the FODMAPs might be something to try, a low FODMAP diet. Again, that was a lot.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but I think that's good advice. I think you covered it well.

Melanie Avalon: Do you see that in your groups, Gin, people burping during the fast?

Gin Stephens: No. [laughs] Not really, not a lot. I mean, it doesn't come up much.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's so interesting. I thought that maybe it would have come up a lot. But, yeah, it comes up all the time in the SIBO groups.

Gin Stephens: Well, that makes sense. They've got that in common.

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Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Jennifer and the subject is “Question.” Jennifer says, “Hello ladies. I'm new to intermittent fasting but all of my life I have not really enjoyed breakfast, but did it anyway because I was worried that my metabolism would slow down. After listening to you, I have been able to fast guilt-free, so thank you for that freedom. Before intermittent fasting, I had been on a keto diet for about two years. As such, I think that my body fat adapted pretty quickly. I was easily able to immediately go down to just one meal a day and I open my window between 6 and 6:30 PM with a non-alcoholic beverage most days and a glass of wine two days a week. I also have a light snack, such as raw veggies and dip. We usually sit down to dinner between 7 and 7:30. My husband rolls his eyes at my new fasting lifestyle, and did the same with my keto diet. He is happy to eat simple carbs, does not seem to care much about what he eats and loves to feed himself and my two boys, ages 12 and 9, processed foods.

My question to you pertains to when I sit down to eat with my family, I'm usually the one who is making and eating something different than the rest of my family. I'm more flexible on the weekends and usually will join in with what the family is eating as long as I get to pick. This is fine with me and we have adapted to this lifestyle. However, during the week, since my children and husband are eating processed, partially digested foods, they're done with dinner very quickly. It doesn't take long to wolf down a cheeseburger. For me, this is my one and only meal of the day. I like to savor my food and eat slowly. Also, I'm eating whole foods such as a very large salad and raw vegetables which take a lot longer to eat than processed foods. I find myself rushing through dinner, just so I am not the last one eating with everyone staring at me, like I am the glutton who is still eating when everyone else has pushed their chairs back from the table. Also, I am usually the one driving the dinner conversation which makes it even more difficult to eat quickly.

How do I still enjoy my dinner, eat slowly, enjoy conversation with my family without feeling like a glutton because everyone else is done and I'm still eating? I find myself stealing a few bites of my dinner while doing the dishes, just so I don't have to make everyone wait for me. Do you have any suggestions on how to deal with this? Thanks so much. I love your show. It provides me not only with motivation, but validation for what I am doing despite the naysayers I live with.” She also says, “I've been catching up on all of your episodes, I'm worried that I might miss your answer. Do you also email a response in case I don't find it for quite some time if you read my question on the air.” For that last question, because we do get that occasionally. In case listeners are wondering, we don't email when the question comes on air, so you have to keep listening if you want to know of your question. I wish we could. There's just so--

Gin Stephens: So many things to keep up with.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's the answer to that. Jennifer, we are answering your question, so hopefully you're listening. I thought this was a really great question because recently we've been getting this question a lot about, oftentimes mom's not wanting to eat dinner and having an earlier window and struggling with that aspect, but this was the first time getting a question where she does do the one meal day dinner, but there's this timing issue. I just thought this was a great question. So Gin, do you have advice?

Gin Stephens: I think you have two options. One of them is, and this might be a wacky one, but this really might be your answer. You like to open your window between 6 and 6:30. Maybe have your separate meal then, eat the food you want to eat that's going to take you a while to eat, and you're not going to feel like someone's watching you or you're rushing or whatever. And then, when your family eats between 7 and 7:30, you've already eaten, you sit with them, you keep the conversation rolling, you keep them company, you have your family time, and you don't feel you're stressed out with having to shove your food in or finish it later secretly, to say, “I'm going to eat earlier, and then I'm going to sit with you.” Maybe have your raw veggies and dip when they're having their dinner, just flip it. Flip your snack. Have your meal, then have a little something else. That's one suggestion.

The other is, tell your family how you feel. You can say, “I understand that y'all are done first, it would make me so happy if you would sit with me. And then let me eat slowly and we can just use this visiting time.” The part about where you are feeling like you're a glutton, that's something you're putting on yourself. I guarantee your husband and kids haven't said you're a glutton, stop eating, they're not saying that. You've got to get rid of that thought. Stop putting that thought on yourself because you're eating high-quality whole foods, it takes longer to eat those foods. It's 100% you're not being a glutton and I do not think that they think that. They might be irritated because they want to go do something else instead of sit with you. They might be thinking that, because I know families, but they're not thinking that you're a glutton. My mother was always a really slow eater, and I can remember being a kid and sitting there and like, “Come on, hurry up,” especially if we were at a restaurant. She was taking forever and just really, really slow, but it wasn't that I felt like she was a glutton, it was that I was ready to move on and do something different.

So, think about either eating beforehand, or having a conversation with them and saying how you feel. Just say, “I feel I'm having to rush. I feel I'm having to eat really fast. It would make me so happy if you could just sit with me while I finish.” Either one of those would be a solution. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I love that so much. So speaking to both, so the first option that you gave about eating before and then finishing with the family, I guess if she did have a conversation about the glutton and didn't feel like a glutton, because that might solve it, because if she has conversation and realizes that's not perceived that way, the alternative to eating more before and finishing with them would be eating with them, and then finishing after, which is sort of like--

Gin Stephens: What she's doing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Maybe you feel you don't have to make everyone wait for you. We're great at not wanting to put anyone else out, but you know what? Maybe they need to be put out and sit there and be with you as a family. Just say, “We're going to sit here as a family and spend some family time.” So it's not just about eat the food, go.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. At restaurants, I'm always this way. I'm always eating right until the very, very end, eating slowly. And then usually, everybody wants dessert, and I just want like another steak. That's when I eat everybody else's leftover meat, as well. I feel like I did probably used to feel like a glutton with that, because I literally will eat other people's leftovers. But I know I'm not, and I know what's going on. So, I don't really care.

Gin Stephens: I don't take on other people's feelings about how I'm eating at this point. Now, when I weighed 210 pounds, I think I felt more judged. If someone was like, “No wonder you weigh 210 pounds, look at how you eat.” I think I was very sensitive at that time. But now, I'm fortunate, obviously, I'm not overweight, I'm able to disconnect from that, and I don't feel food judgments from people. I don't accept it, no matter what I'm eating. Even if I'm choosing to eat something that's different for me, however much of it I eat is my own business at this point. You know what I mean? I do have a lot of sympathy and empathy for people who are still overweight and feel that judgment because I remember feeling it then I did feel it. And so, I don't have words of wisdom other than it's normal to want to eat a big meal that we were-- what's that Robb Wolf book, Wired to Eat? We are wired to enjoy eating a substantial meal. When I was overweight, I felt guilty about it, but now, I realize that's how our bodies feel great, not overeating, but eating a substantial meal feels good, and we shouldn't feel guilty about it.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. All right. Jennifer, definitely write back and let us know if you implement any of these and how it goes. It reminds me of we got that feedback last week.

Gin Stephens: From Bronwyn?

Melanie Avalon: She had a suggestion for a listener who was struggling with what I said at the beginning of this question. Having an earlier eating window and not wanting to eat with the family. She was saying that once she told her family the situation, it was actually completely fine. So, you might be surprised just talking about it like Gin suggested.

Gin Stephens: If you're eating something different, anyway, I think that makes it easier to just eat at a different time because really the family time being around the table is the being together. That's what it's about. It's about being together.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: Good times. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can find all of the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode197. You can follow us on Instagram, my favorite. I am @MelanieAvalon, Gin is @GinStephens. I think that is everything. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week. I guess next time I talk to you might be depending on when we schedule, it might be 2021.

Gin Stephens: I think it will be. Yeah, even if people are listening to this one in 2021, we're still in the past. We haven't time-traveled to the future yet. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: So, I'll see you next year.

Gin Stephens: All right, next year. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Jan 17

Episode 196: Christmas Episode, Low Energy, Brain Fog, HCLF, Fruit, Complex Carbs, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #70 - Kara Collier (Nutrisense)

Welcome to Episode 196 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To ButcherBox.com/IFPODCAST And Get The Ultimate Keto Bundle!

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Lifespan: Why We Age - and Why We Don't Have To (David A. Sinclair PhD)

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Listener Feedback: Bronwyn - Becky episode 192

Listener Q&A: Rachanna - Energy during Fasting window

Listener Q&A: Robin - Lack of energy while fasting

The Wahls Protocol: A Radical New Way to Treat All Chronic Autoimmune Conditions Using Paleo Principles (Terry Wahls M.D.)

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Listener Q&A: Grace - Fruit and Hunger, High Carb Definition

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #44- Cyrus Khambatta, PHD and Robby Barbaro, MPH

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #71 - Dr. Douglas Graham

IN DEFENSE OF LOW FAT: A CALL FOR SOME EVOLUTION OF THOUGHT (PART 1)

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #74 - Benjamin Bikman, Ph.D.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 196 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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One more thing before you jump in. Are you concerned about aging? Well thankfully, fasting is super incredible for its anti-aging benefits. It activates genes in your body called sirtuins, which repair your body and help extend lifespan. Also during the fast, your body can clean up a lot of harmful chemicals which may be taxing your detoxification systems. In fact the reason people go gray is because their detox systems start producing a lot of hydrogen peroxide when dealing with toxins. Do you know where a lot of those chemicals come from? Your skincare and makeup.

As it turns out, there are thousands of compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup that Europe has banned due to their toxic nature and the US has banned less than 10. When you put these on your skin every single day through your skincare makeup, you're adding to your body's burden and likely aging your skin faster. Thankfully, you can easily clean up your skincare with a company called Beautycounter. They make incredible products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about every single ingredient that you put on. They also have an amazing antiaging line called Countertime. Friends, this is a game-changer.

It's full of active ingredients, which nourish and support your skin, reduce fine lines and wrinkles and support a beautiful glow. It also has a safe alternative to retinol. So you can get all of the anti-aging benefits of retinol without any of the toxic effects of retinol because, yes, that stuff is toxic. Guys, put it away now. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. Also, definitely get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I giveaway so many free things on that list. So definitely check it out.

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Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 196 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, I just forgot the intro for the first time in 196 episodes. It's like when you have a habit of something that is so habitual but then if you actually try to think about it, it's like you overanalyze.

Gin Stephens: Oh, 100%. Somebody in my family got a new iPhone for Christmas. They were upgrading from the kind that had the finger that you had to click on, and so now you don't do that anymore. You just slide up instead of clicking on the little home button. I was trying to show them how to do it, and I'm like, “I can't remember how to do it. I don't know.” They're like, “How do you do this?” I'm like, “I have no idea. I just do it.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, when you actually think about it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Like, “Can you tell me?” I'm like, “No, I can't tell you. I just have to do it.”

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if it's because it's not in your conscious working memory?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, it's like driving a car. You don't even think about all the things you're doing. You just do it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Like, I wonder if literally, if you consciously try to think about it, like, if you're looking for the information in the wrong part of your brain. It might be in a different part of your brain where it's subconscious. So, trying to actually think about it, maybe the knowledge is literally not there.

Gin Stephens: Everything is hard, that's automatic when you try to think about it. If you had to stand up out of your chair, you're like, “Alright, how do I stand up out of my chair?” But you don't think about it, you just do it. Like walking, you don't know how to walk, you just walk. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny, our podcast episode-- [crosstalk]

Gin Stephens: There you go. We're recording this on the day after Christmas. How was your Christmas?

Melanie Avalon: It was wonderful. We opened all of our presents. We did the immediate family gathering on Christmas Eve. Then on Christmas Day, we did a responsible socially distance gathering with extended family.

Gin Stephens: Very nice.

Melanie Avalon: How about you?

Gin Stephens: Well, I got to see Cal and Kate for the first time in over a year, which is crazy to say. I hadn't seen them since they got married.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. That's exciting.

Gin Stephens: It was so exciting. They didn't think they were going to be able to come home for a brief minute. And then they were like, “We're doing it. We're coming home.” They safely flew Delta with the seat in the middle and they wore their masks. While they were here, they didn't see people. Cal hadn't seen his friends. He's like, “Nope, can't see them.” We didn't go see the whole family, but they just stayed here with us. So, it was just the people I gave birth to and my spouse, and my daughter in law. So that was it.

Melanie Avalon: That’s so exciting.

Gin Stephens: It was exciting. It was very nice to see them. They were here for four nights, it flew by.

Melanie Avalon: Oh yeah, I bet.

Gin Stephens: It really did. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Can I tell you the gifts that I gave to family members?

Gin Stephens: Real quick, I have to tell you something funny. I can no longer say that both of my sons do intermittent fasting because Cal has stopped doing intermittent fasting. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?

Gin Stephens: Yes. He eats all the time, and it was hilarious. They get up in the morning, they're eating, I'm like, “What?”

Melanie Avalon: “What are you doing?” [laughs]

Gin Stephens: He's making egg and she's a vegetarian. He's probably 90 something percent vegetarian now because that's just how they eat around their apartment. We had to go to the store and get all these vegetarian things. And they just ate all the time, all those small meals. We went to a national park that's in South Carolina that I'd never even heard of or been to. It only became a national park in 2005, which explains a lot, but it's Congaree National Park. It's like a swamp, has a boardwalk. We walked all through the swamp. It was beautiful. They're like, “We have to think about what we're going to eat.” I'm like, “Oh my Lord.” We had to pack food and take food and eat the food as soon as we got there. I mean, I didn't. I was in the fasted state. I hiked four miles in the fasted state. They ate before we left, they ate in the middle of a hike, it was really funny. I didn't eat till we got home. That was like 5 PM. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Did it come out of a need for him, because he was doing more vegetarian, like not getting enough food?

Gin Stephens: I don't think so. I don't really know. He was just doing the intermittent fasting loosely and not eating till lunchtime when he was in college. Even I think when he first started working for Airbnb, he would go into the office, but now he's working from home. I think he just got into the habit of starting to have breakfast again, and anyway. They're both really lean and healthy and they get a lot of exercise. Intermittent fasting is a tool that they have if they ever need it, but it was just so funny how frequently they ate.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really happy, I realized now my family finally is just-- they completely accepted all of my strange habits because I didn't really eat at the times that they were eating for different festivity gatherings.

Gin Stephens: While on Christmas Day, we went safely over to my dad and stepmothers, and I ate brunch, I ate all day long. But today, the day after, I'm so happy to not be eating. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's the thing about it. I feel it's the one dietary protocol, or I don’t want to make an exclusive statement like that. One of the benefits about intermittent fasting is, if you do stop it for the holidays, I feel so many people are so excited to go back to it, compared to dreading it.

Gin Stephens: Even technically, I say that I didn't. I did fast. I fasted overnight, so I probably on Christmas Day had a-- Well, let me think, let me do some math. I had probably a 13-hour fast, 14-hour fast before I open my window on Christmas. I mean, it wasn't really a window. I guess it technically is always a window, but I still had a 13 or 14 hour fast then I ate. I ate more than I needed to, foods I don't normally eat. Today, though, it feels great to fast longer. Feels great too fast longer, let me clarify. What were you going to say and then I interrupted you with my story?

Melanie Avalon: The gifts related to things we've talked about on the show that I gave to people. I gave Beautycounter to everybody. My sister, my brother, he was so excited, which made me really excited. My mom, my brother's girlfriend, and my uncle, who also was really excited. They have a men's line. That was fun. I'll give links for all these different things I talk about. For that, melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. Then I got, okay, the thing I was most excited about which I think I might have sent you a picture of this when I got it because I got it months ago, but I got my dad, it was my favorite book out of all the health biohacking books is David Sinclair's Lifespan and I got him to sign it to my dad. Did I show you a picture of that when he did that?

Gin Stephens: I don't think so. No, but that's awesome.

Melanie Avalon: I got it way back in the spring. So that made me really happy. I asked him just to sign it to Steve, my dad, but he wrote a whole message and wrote like, “Your daughter is awesome.” I was like, “Oh my goodness.”

Gin Stephens: That's fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: I got that from my dad, and then I also got my dad a pair of BLUblox, blue light blocking glasses.

Gin Stephens: It was a biohacking Christmas.

Melanie Avalon: It really was. Then I got my mom, a chiliPAD OOLER, the mattress that cools down while you sleep. I'm so excited for her to try it because she's been complaining about sleeping really hot at night and not being able to sleep. She said she was going to add it into her budget and buy it later, so I was like, “I'll just get it for her”. I got her an Apollo Neuro, the stress-relieving device, which was really funny because a few days before Christmas, she texted me because she had seen one of my Instagram stories or Facebook or something about Apollo Neuro. She was like, “Does this really work?” I was like, “Yes.” She was like, “I think I want to get one.” I was like, “Oh, wait.” I'd already got it for her.

Gin Stephens: “Do not get one, mom.”

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “I think they're coming out with an update, so you might want to wait.” She was really excited about that. That might have been all of the “biohacking” related gifts. If listeners are curious, it’s not like I got any of this for free, I bought all of this just to show how obsessed I am with all these products.

Gin Stephens: True. I bought Chad Dry Farm Wines, a box of the reds, and I paid for it. I bought it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh yeah, I got my dad that, too. I got my dad and mom that.

Gin Stephens: Oh, and I had some wine last night, but it was like the tiny-- I felt like Melanie Avalon. You know how you had teaspoon or something? Chad opened his one of his bottles of the red. It was a French red. And I'm like, “Pour me.” I mean, it was like half a centimeter of wine of the glass that I just slipped. It was tiny. But it wasn't enough to even have any buzz or impact. It was just a tiny little taste. So, I tasted it.

Melanie Avalon: That's technically probably micro-dosing alcohol. I think that has a really beneficial hormetic effect.

Gin Stephens: Maybe. Well, I micro-dosed it and it was delicious.

Melanie Avalon: I didn't stop my intermittent fasting window or anything. I didn't change my food choices, but what I did go off plan was they were all organic wines. I have all of these really nice expensive organic bottles of wine that I've had for a while but they're not Dry Farm Wines. A lot of them are California and they're a lot higher alcohol and they're not-- I just like to drink Dry Farm Wines. For the holidays though, I brought those bottles over any opportunity I had. So, I'm excited to go back to Dry Farm Wines now.

Gin Stephens: Oh yeah. I can never do anything else. I mean, I'm not ever going to drink like huge amounts of anything ever again, I'm pretty sure, but the Dry Farm Wines is really just so different.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really proud of myself, like at all the gatherings I really stuck to. I brought the really nice bottles, like I said, that are organic, but there's just something different about Dry Farm Wines, but I stuck to them and then I didn't try any of the other wines even though I really wanted to. But, yeah, so for listeners, I'll put links in the show notes. You can get a bottle for a penny, Dry Farm Wines. So, that's dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast. You can get 15% off of BLUblox, the blue light blocking glasses at blublox.com with the coupon code IFPODCAST. You can get 15% off Apollo Neuro, that's the soundwave therapy device, at melanieavalon.com/apolloneuro with the coupon code MELANIEAVALON. For chiliPAD, it's melanieavalon.com/getchilipad, that's C-H-I-L-I-P-A-D. The code MA25, gets you 25% off the chiliPAD, that's the original one. And then, the code MA15 gives you 15% off the OOLER. I actually just got the OOLER for myself as well. I think I talked about that because I bought them on Black Friday when they were having a pretty good sale. And, oh my goodness, I love it. I definitely recommend it over the chiliPAD because the updates that it has, is it has like a UV light to sanitize the water because there is the concern about mold growing. Then, it syncs to your phone, so you can time it. Mine automatically turns on at a certain time every night and then turns off in the morning and it's just a game-changer for my sleep. It was a biohacking Christmas.

Gin Stephens: That's fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, very last thing. So sorry. The present that I received that I got most excited about. My mom got me the Rolling Stones December 2020 edition was Taylor Swift on the cover with, I think, Paul McCartney. Apparently, it's sold out. Is Rolling Stone subscription only? My mom and I were debating about that. Do you know?

Gin Stephens: The magazine?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Can you buy it on the newsstands?

Gin Stephens: I mean, [unintelligible [00:17:09]. Can you now? I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I'm not sure. Well, she swears.

Gin Stephens: I don’t buy anything on the newsstand now. I can't think of the last time I've gone and bought a magazine.

Melanie Avalon: Probably years when you were on the cover. Did you buy that one?

Gin Stephens: Oh, well. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that. [laughs] Okay, yeah. I bought that at the grocery store though.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, like newsstands?

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean, when I'm thinking about-- I was picturing when you go to the whole display of all the magazines and it's just the one that Fast. Feast. Repeat. was featured in was at the checkout stand.

Melanie Avalon: Then the one that we were in-- or you were in. It was a profile on you, but then it mentioned this show, remember?

Gin Stephens: Was it the intermittent fasting special? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Good times. My mom, she got me-- Apparently, it's sold out the first edition. So, it's still in the packaging of the Rolling Stones 2020 December, Taylor Swift cover. It made me so happy. And then she got me organic, gluten-free vodka from Hawaii made from sugarcane. The water is Hawaii mineral water. I was like, “Thank you, mom. Vodka and Taylor Swift. You know me.” [laughs] I actually haven't had vodka in, I don’t know, a decade.

Gin Stephens: My very favorite gift was, my son, Will, painted pictures for Chad and for me.

Melanie Avalon: Aww.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. He is my artsy boy, the one that is in a band. His band is called Wing It. If you go to Apple Music, you can listen to their song wishing by Wing It on Apple Music. I think it's everywhere that you can do all that.

Melanie Avalon: Is it on Spotify now?

Gin Stephens: I think it might be. I don't know if it's . It's just like with self-publishing books. Once you upload it to one place, and it goes to all the places or podcasts. Once you upload a podcast, it goes to all the podcast apps, same thing with the music scene. It should be really everywhere that you stream music. Wishing by Wing it. Anyway, I'm just so proud of him. He's doing artsy things. And now he's like, “I'm going to paint.” He's painting and it's fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? What did he paint?

Gin Stephens: It's an impressionistic looking thing. He painted the scene of his where he lives right now. He painted a daytime version and then a nighttime version, and they're just beautiful. All of his Christmas money, he's like, “I'm going to go buy canvases.” I'm not even kidding, that's what he's-- he's going to go buy canvases and he's such a creative boy.

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that was my very favorite present.

Melanie Avalon: Aww, I love it. Yep. Listeners, Gin sent me a miniature Christmas tree, and it made me so happy.

Gin Stephens: I'm so glad.

Melanie Avalon: I decorated it.

Gin Stephens: Yay.

Melanie Avalon: Staring at me.

Gin Stephens: And that was your only Christmas tree, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because I posted a picture on Instagram. I received a lot of plants this year.

Gin Stephens: But I mean, you didn't put up a Christmas tree?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. It was my only Christmas tree, that made me really happy because I was debating about getting a Christmas tree in my apartment. But I was like, “I don't want to deal--" Mostly I don't want to deal with storing it. If it was artificial, storing it somewhere or--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that is not easy.

Melanie Avalon: And if it's real, getting rid of it.

Gin Stephens: I am so happy in my house because we have five attics. It's a crazy house. It's got a lot of weird eaves, and in all the little weird eaves area upstairs, there's a little attic crammed in there.

Melanie Avalon: There's always these words that you teach me about houses that I have never heard of in my life. Okay, an eave?

Gin Stephens: Well, think about a roof that's the triangle of the roof. Now imagine a room that's next to where a slanted ceiling comes down. A lot of the rooms in my house have slanted ceilings. Okay, so imagine as the slant comes down, there's all that space that you can't have really in the room. There's doorways that go under the eaves, and that's like storage.

Melanie Avalon: So, it's like a triangle room?

Gin Stephens: It's just that little space. I don’t know, it's hard to explain, but I have an entire Christmas attic.

Melanie Avalon: Nice.

Gin Stephens: I mean, it's fantastic. That's why I have two full-sized Christmas trees that I keep in there. I mean, I have to take them down, but all my Christmas stuffs in that one attic, and it's phenomenal because we didn't have that kind of storage in my other house.

Melanie Avalon: Storage is everything.

Gin Stephens: In fact, when we bought this house, the old owner said beware of the attics.

Melanie Avalon: What do you mean?

Gin Stephens: Because you can put so much stuff in there. They had been in this house since ‘84, and so apparently their attics were packed.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: That's crazy.

Gin Stephens: We're going to try not to fall in the trap. Anyway, you're right, storing your Christmas tree is hard.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Shall we get started?

Melanie Avalon: I think so. I knew we were going to have a lot to catch up on.

Gin Stephens: We did, well, because Christmas.

Melanie Avalon: This will come out into January, but happy late Christmas to everybody. Hopefully 2021 is looking bright.

Gin Stephens: I think it's going to be a great year.

Melanie Avalon: I think so, too.

Gin Stephens: Some great things happened in 2020 though. I know friends who had babies or their first grandchildren or their New York Times bestselling book or other things. We had some good things in 2020. It also taught us a lot about what to value and what's important.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's what I keep thinking. I think it's been like--

Gin Stephens: We [unintelligible [00:22:32] down.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and amazing, like, a forced mindfulness in a way to reevaluate what's important.

Gin Stephens: Bad things happen in every single year. But I don't think we should think of 2020 is only bad, because it also had some amazing things in it.

Melanie Avalon: I agree.

Gin Stephens: And then you feel guilty. You're like, “Well, I had some good things in 2020.” I'm sorry, I had a good thing.

Melanie Avalon: That is a response that I even have that I shouldn't feel good about things that happened. So, I think a reframe.

Gin Stephens: It's like I'm sorry, you only complain. No, we need to celebrate the good things, too.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it doesn't diminish the other things.

Gin Stephens: Right.

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All right, so we have some feedback from Bronwyn. It is about Becky from Episode 192. She said, “Hi, Gin and Melanie, I'm listening to Episode 192, and wondered if you could tell Becky my experience. I, like her, can't get past about 1:00 PM without needing to eat, but I can easily drop dinner. When I finally decided that I didn't “have to” eat dinner with my family and just sat with them and drank water. Not one of them noticed that I wasn't eating until the fourth night. They are not upset about it. They don't mind at all. Bronwyn.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so that was some good feedback. I'm pretty sure the initial question from Becky, which was a question that we get from a lot of people is, families, is often usually moms who have kids and families and they do better with an earlier eating window. So, they don't want to eat dinner with a family, and there's this whole puzzle to figure out about what is best. I'm trying to remember what we recommended. I think we recommended a lot of different potential options, but it's nice to hear that for some people, like Bronwyn, that just taking the approach that she took can work for some people.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's true. Yep. I think you nailed it.

Melanie Avalon: Now, we have two questions, and they are talking about a similar topic, so we thought we would include both. The first one is from Roshanna, and the subject is “Energy During Fasting Window.” Roshanna says, “So, I hear about this increased mental energy with IF. I had been doing IF now for a few months and have reached my target weight. However, I have a fogged brain through the fasting period. After my eating window opens, and I eat lunch around 12 to 1. I experienced a sudden and sharp dip of energy, which stays through till my dinner time, which is at 7:00, no amount of tea or coffee helps.” Then, we have a question from Robin, the subject is “Lack of Energy While Fasting.” She says, “Hi, I've been fasting now for about three years, started 12:12 and worked up to 24. I do 24 to keep my weight down, especially now since COVID, and not working out at the level I was before COVID. I'm currently working at home and I'm not going to gym for spin class to get my cardio in, to keep my A1C in check. My issue is I never feel energized and focused. It's just the opposite, tired and brain fog. Any suggestions?” All right. Two great question. Great questions from two Rs, Roshanna and Robin. Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm going to be really brief. Most of us have increased mental clarity and energy while fasting clean during the fast. For example, today, it's the day after Christmas, I actually was a little draggy this morning, because I had a long window yesterday. I ate more sweets and things I don't normally eat and so I was feeling a little draggy. But then I just pushed through that and then, boom, on the other side, mental clarity, increased energy, no more brain fog. That is what you want to ideally feel. If you're not feeling that ever, and you know you're fasting clean, and you know you're fasting long enough that you should be getting into ketosis like 16, 18, 20 hours, you never feel it. If you're only fasting 16 hours and you never feel it, you might not be fasting long enough. If you're fasting 20 hours or beyond and you never get out of the brain fog, either you're not getting into ketosis, which is possible or there's something else causing the brain fog. People have brain fog, for all sorts of reasons.

It could be related to something going on in your gut, it could be an allergy. I mean, it could be all sorts of reasons that you have brain fog. If you know you're fasting long enough, you know that you “should be” getting into ketosis and having that increased mental clarity that would come with that and you never, never, never are, then it's time to look beyond what else is going on. Back to what Roshanna said about after she eats, she has a dip of energy. Well, that's normal, because digestion takes a lot of energy. And we tend to have our blood glucose might drop after we eat, depending on what you eat, you feel tired, your body's digesting all that. So, that's normal. In the fast, if you continue to feel lethargic and have brain fog, and you're fasting for years and years, you know that you're having a long enough fast, I would dig deeper. So I know, Melanie, you have a ton to say about that.

Melanie Avalon: What I noticed for both of them, and Gin can probably predict that I would say this, but neither of them said what they are eating. Gin really nailed it in the fact that there are so many potential things that can be going on that, so many things. Even fasting itself, for some people can have a really intense detox effect, and can create fatigue, just from the fasting, for example. This isn't speaking to energy specifically, but right now I am reading The Wahls Protocol by Terry Wahls. I'm so excited because I'm going to be interviewing her and she's really a huge figure in the holistic health world. She's the one that had multiple sclerosis. She was wheelchair bound, like couldn't even walk, and she completely reversed all of it through diet and lifestyle. Originally, she's a doctor, so she has a really nuanced and informed perspective from both conventional and holistic medicine. In any case, something that really stuck out with me was, I was reading her book and is not speaking to energy specifically, but she said that there are basically four things related to chronic disease. Four factors in your body.

Energy issues often overlap with factors in our body that can be trending towards disease. She says that those are one mitochondrial dysfunction. Basically, how your cells are generating energy. Gin spoke to that with the fasting. For a lot of people, if you are fasting, and you are fat-adapted, and you're in the ketogenic state, then your mitochondria are most likely generating ketones adequately, so that may or may not be the problem. If you're not getting the energy from the fast, Gin, just talks about this, it might be that you're never quite getting into that, that ketogenic state that you need to be in, to experience the benefits.

The other thing she says number two is excessive and inappropriate inflammation. I think that's a lot where the food choices come in. You might be fasting and doing all the fasting. Even though you can get the benefits of fasting coupled with a diet that is not health-promoting or not working for you, it's still quite possible to be putting in foods in your body in the eating window that are short-circuiting everything. And so, then when you're actually fasting, it’s mitigating the damage, but you're never able to really reach that state of vitality or energy because you're always doing cleanup every day. It would be like, if you had a house party every night, like a college party in your apartment, and then you came and did a deep clean every day, like a fasting period. If you're always recovering from what you're eating, that can be an issue. Sometimes you might not even realize that it's causing a problem. It can be hard to know, sometimes unless you actually take out the foods that are bothering you. And I'm not trying to moralize food or say that anybody is doing a “bad diet,” but it is possible that the foods are not suiting your body. So, I always recommend if you haven't tried like a Whole Foods type approach diet, where you're eliminating potentially inflammatory foods. I obviously really love the “paleo approach,” which is in my book, What When Wine, but just looking at your dietary choices can be really important.

Then the other two things she says, number three is high cortisol levels. I think that speaks to so hormones. Hormones can be huge. So, you can be doing the fasting and eating the right food. But if your hormones are off for whatever reason, there can still be problems with energy, because hormones are huge. And then the fourth thing she says is absence of or insufficient health-promoting microbes living in and on us, so our microbiomes. I do think our gut health and our microbiome health is, like, huge. If your gut is full of microbes that are not symbiotically supporting you, it can definitely, definitely lead to energy issues, weight gain, things just not quite working. Again, that is something where I think addressing foods can be a huge factor in that, but that was a long answer, just like Gin predicted.

Gin Stephens: I knew you have a lot to say.

Melanie Avalon: I just thought was perfect, because I read that last night, and I was like, that's really four really great things to focus on. Basically, long story short, it might not be the fasting. It could be a lot of things.

Gin Stephens: Just to piggyback when you were talking about things that were inflammatory for your body, it's not the same for everybody. Something that works really well for me, might be inflammatory for somebody else, and vice versa. I'm getting ready to eat according to the recommendations of the PREDICT 3 study just to see how I feel. After doing that study, I found that, to no surprise, to me, a lot of fat is inflammatory to me, because my body doesn't clear fat. If I were just following someone else's protocol of eating a high fat, keto diet, for example, that worked great and lowered inflammation for somebody else, that's inflammatory for me, because of the way my body clears fat based on the results of my blood test. You just really have to figure out what works for your body. The good news is, we're getting more and more tools to do that. Companies that can analyze things for you and say, “Guess what? That's not good for your body.”

Melanie Avalon: The two things now that I always have on, I'm learning so much from my continuous glucose monitor, which I have one on still right now. Gin, are you going to wear another one at all, do you think?

Gin Stephens: Maybe, which one are you using?

Melanie Avalon: It's Nutrisense.

Gin Stephens: Is that the one you like most?

Melanie Avalon: I did interviews with Nutrisense and Levels, I like both. They both use the FreeStyle Libre. Oh, and for listeners who are not familiar, I know Gin and I've been talking about this a lot. But the continuous glucose monitor is a sensor that you put onto your arm, and it measures your glucose, your blood glucose constantly 24/7, so you can see how you react to foods and you can see what's happening when you're fasting, when you eat, when you exercise, like how is that changing your blood sugar, and it's revolutionary.

Gin Stephens: Just to clarify, that's not what told me that fats are inflammatory for me, that was the different part of the PREDICT 3 study. The CGM was part of it, but they also fed me challenge meals and then tested my blood at periods throughout after the challenge meal to see how my body cleared the fat. Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that.

Melanie Avalon: So, they were testing the fatty acids in your blood?

Gin Stephens: Yes, how my body cleared the fat after the challenge meal, that they have the data on how you should clear the fat versus how I did clear the fat. Anyway, the reason I asked about Nutrisense being the one you prefer is because they reached out to the company that does my podcast ads. They're interested in sponsoring Intermittent Fasting Stories.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, doing sponsorships.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Anyway, I wanted to check and see if that's the one because I was like, “I think so, but I'd like to try it.” I'm going to get to try it.

Melanie Avalon: Are they sending you one?

Gin Stephens: Well, I think so.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they're great. For listeners, I'll put a link in the show notes-- Oh, the show notes, by the way, will be at ifpodcast.com/episode196.

Gin Stephens: But just to say, we don't promote things until we try them. So that's why I asked, because I was like, I'm not going to say yes to any company until I can try it for myself. I say no to all sorts of companies, as does Melanie, as do we.

Melanie Avalon: All the time.

Gin Stephens: All the time.

Melanie Avalon: Definitely every week, and sometimes multiple times a week.

Gin Stephens: I also say no to people who want to come on Intermittent Fasting Stories, and I have turned down to three New York Times bestselling writers who wanted to be on Intermittent Fasting Stories, because-- anyway, I don't get into all the reasons, but if their protocol is not in line with the clean fast, or if they're just trying to promote a book that's really the opposite of what I think is fasting. Anyway, I'm a little wacky with that.

Melanie Avalon: Then they can come over to my show. [laughs] Everybody welcome.

Gin Stephens: I'm here to talk about intermittent fasting stories.

Melanie Avalon: No, it makes sense because you want everything to be in line with what you're doing. So, my show is the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, the point of it is to bring on people of all different--

Gin Stephens: Diverse points of view.

Melanie Avalon: I think the only people I don't want to bring on are people who I feel-- well, it's hard for me to say that because so many people come on are very-- I don't use the word dogmatic, but they definitely think what they're doing is the “one right answer.” I prefer people who feel that there might be different approaches that work for different people. At the same time, in order for me to personally explore all the different options, I feel I have to bring on the people who believe in all the different options. Even if they believe that's the only option. Oh, Nutrisense. Yeah, so I'll put a link in the show notes. I interviewed the founder, Kara Collier. She's fantastic. That was at melanieavalon.com/nutrisense. I'm also going to release the episode with Levels. Right now, they both use FreeStyle Libre. They're different apps. They're both really valuable. They both work. I'm a fan. Levels is still in the beta testing phase right now, that was my reasoning for releasing the Nutrisense episode first because I want people to get it now. Once I release Levels, it's not even out yet, it's a waitlist. So that's why I've been in really hardcore promoting Nutrisense. Right now, the price point is better for Nutrisense and I want it to be most accessible to everybody.

I'm really hoping Levels brings down their price point. We'll see how that goes. I'm sitting on the episode and I might just release it once it's already out. So then that it's not a waitlist situation, but listeners, you can get 15% off on Nutrisense at melanieavalon.com/nutrisenseCGM with the coupon MELANIEAVALON, and yes, I have mine on right now.

Gin Stephens: Good stuff.

Melanie Avalon: That's why that came up. I would say we're talking about like things that monitor and tell us about our health. I wear the Oura ring now. I actually do think you would like the Oura ring.

Gin Stephens: I might. I'm weird about rings. I feel it's a little wide.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. It is big.

Gin Stephens: I don't like wide things on my fingers. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: You can put it on any finger. Does that matter?

Gin Stephens: I really don't like things on weird fingers.

Melanie Avalon: Okay.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: Like your pointer finger? No, I would go crazy. My friend, Sheri, has one. I'll try hers on and see. I'll see if I can handle it.

Melanie Avalon: I love it.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to see her next week.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just finding it so motivating. I'm actually bringing back the founder for a listener Q&A. I'm really excited.

Gin Stephens: Or, if they wanted to send me one, I would wear one. I would try it, but anyway.

Melanie Avalon: They actually only send tests. They don't let you keep it.

Gin Stephens: They don’t let you keep it. Yeah, that's funny.

Melanie Avalon: Friends, I have a story for you. I recently got septoplasty to fix my deviated septum so that I could breathe better. And in the recovery period, you're not supposed to wear glasses. Oh, my goodness. I cannot tell you how much I realized how much I adore and need and love BLUblox blue light blocking glasses. I've been wearing them every single night of my life until I got that surgery. Guys, you need this in your life.

In today's world, we're way overexposed to blue light. While blue light is energizing, we're not supposed to be seeing it 24/7, it can raise cortisol, stress levels, create tension and headaches disrupt your sleep and so much more. Of course, there are a lot of “blue light blocking glasses” on the market these days, Andy Mant, the founder of BLUblox, he personally realized how incredible blue light blocking glasses were for him personally. So, then he did something crazy and actually tested all the brands on the market to see if they actually were blocking blue light like they said they were. They weren't really. That's why he took things into his own hands to create glasses that would block the blue light, you need to be blocking to truly have the healthiest relationship possible with light. That's also why he made BLUblox light blocking glasses in a lot of different versions.

They have clear computer glasses you can wear all day while looking at the computer. They have their SummerGlo lens that blocked the draining form of blue light while still allowing in some of the energizing wavelengths. They're also tinted with a special yellow color, scientifically shown to boost mood. And, of course, they have their Sleep+ lens, you can put those on a bed and it's just like, bam, tired. At least that's the way it works for me because actually blue light can block melatonin production, which helps us naturally fall asleep.

Also, get their Sleep REMedy Mask. Oh, my goodness, I use it every single night. It gives you complete blackout while still putting no pressure on your eyes, like you wear it, and you can open your eyes completely, and it's completely black. It's mind-blowing. In case you're wondering, I'm still not supposed to be wearing glasses, but I ordered this weird contraption head thing to hold the glasses over my eyes because I just really need the blue light blocking glasses in my life. These glasses also come in a huge array of styles, so you don't have to feel like a weirdo biohacker like me. You can really get any style or frame to fit your personal style. You can shop with us at blublox.com, that's B-L-U-B-L-O-X dotcom and use the code IFPODCAST to get 15% off. Something else amazing, for every pair of glasses you buy, BLUblox donates a pair of glasses to someone in need. The glasses can also come in prescription made to order. Again, that's blublox.com with the coupon code IFPODCAST for 15% off. All right, now back to the show.

Gin Stephens: We're ready for our next question and this is from Grace. The subject is “Fruit and Hunger, High-Carb Definition.” “Hi, Melanie and Gin, I've been a fan of your podcasts, Facebook groups and apps for years. You both are the reason I've been able to maintain my weight and sanity. I greatly appreciate all the invaluable knowledge you provide. My question is about fruit. I have always eaten a significant amount of fruit between 50 to 70 grams of sugar daily from fruit. Since the quarantine, I had cut fruit completely out of my diet to lessen grocery shopping frequency. This decreased my sugar intake to five grams a day. I noticed my appetite decreased once I removed fruit. I've always had issues feeling satiated. I have never been able to portion control fruit because once I have a single serving, I always want more. I have been fasting for years now usually 18 to 20 hours daily. My hunger levels aren't from the adaptation period.

Melanie, you had said that you feel ravenous when fruit is in your diet. And I wanted to know if you had any scientific findings on why this is happening? Could it mean our bodies aren't processing it well? I also feel significantly bloated after consuming fruit. I just love it so much. I often look past the side effects.

Second question. You've mentioned, choosing between low carb or low fat. I started to follow a moderate protein, high carb, low-fat diet and am loving it. My question involves the definition of carbs. If someone is eating a low fat, high carb diet, do they need to make sure their diet is low sugar? Or is that insignificant if fat is low? Do the carbs need to be whole grain/complex carbs? Will refined carbs have a similar enough effect? I know the whole foods approach is the best. But if someone is eating low fat and the appropriate amount of food, will they gain fat eating refined carbs versus whole grains? Is the definition of low fat 15% or less of a person's daily macros? Thank you so much for all your life-changing advice. Love, Grace.” Wow, that's a lot of questions. [laughs] Grace, you're a gifted student, because they have a lot of questions.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you, Grace, for your email and all of your questions, all of the fruit. The first thing I want to focus on was she said, I said that I feel ravenous when fruit is in my diet. To clarify, so I was eating high carb, low fat for a very long time with a ton of fruit and I was not ravenous at all. And then I went low carb, high fat again. And then every time I tried to bring back fruit, that's what I got the ravenous feelings. Just to clarify, I actually currently am doing high carb, low fat, high fruit.

Gin Stephens: And how are you feeling?

Melanie Avalon: I'm still struggling with hunger. I'm still trying to figure it out.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I have to have a certain level of fat or I get hungry.

Melanie Avalon: I typically do have fat for meat and seafood, but it's not usually added fat. But I do have a lot of thoughts on this. It is all going to come back to as we always say is finding the diet that works for you. When it comes to fruit, I've seen this a lot, especially in my groups, which friends, join my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, people post about this all the time. I really want to talk about the sugar thing. I personally do not automatically equate fruit to sugar. I know technically fruit is sugar, but there's a big difference between refined sugar which Grace talks about a lot in her question as well. Like sugar, like white sugar, high fructose corn syrup, which I think it has a lot of metabolic issues compared to “sugar” from the natural whole foods form of fruit.

Please send it to me if you find one. I have never seen a study showing-- I should probably sit down, try to actually find one, but I have never seen a study showing negative metabolic effects from whole foods form of fruit. There might be one out there. Actually, I read a lot of studies about fruit, I guess it depends on the context, but there are a lot of studies showing fruit having beneficial effects on diabetes and things like that. It's usually things like blueberries and stuff that they're testing. The demonizing studies on fructose, which is what gets linked to fruit is usually on high fructose corn syrup, which you just can't compare. It’s basically the refined form of sugar in a liquid form and the ratio isn't even-- it's like even higher fructose than what would normally be found in fruit. It drives me crazy [unintelligible [00:49:33] what drives me crazy also is they will do studies on refined fructose and compared to refined glucose or something and they'll test the metabolic effects, and then people extrapolate from that. They're like, “Oh, fructose--”

Gin Stephens: Fruits bad and fruits bad. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, here's the thing, friends. Fruit is not 100% fructose anyway. It's usually fructose and glucose. Oftentimes, fructose and glucose and sucrose, which is a combination of fructose and glucose. There's no fruit where it's just refined fructose, that just doesn't happen. You get that from agave nectar, which-- okay, so now I'm on tangent.

Gin Stephens: Which had that halo effect of health. People like, “Agave nectar, it's so good for you.” No, no, no.

Melanie Avalon: People thought it was really great because fructose does not release insulin. I don't know if it's 100% it doesn't release it, but it has very minimal effect on insulin. It goes straight to the liver and is processed by the liver, compared to glucose, which instigates insulin to be shuttled into cells. People thought it was really great for diabetics. How it turns out is that refined fructose in the liver is not a good situation. That's where a lot of problems come from. It's linked to fatty liver, it just creates a lot of problems.

Gin Stephens: We have gone far from an “Apple a day keeps the doctor away,” to, “Oh, my God, apples are destroying your health.” No, they're not.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Looking at fruit in terms of sugar, I don't even like using the word sugar because I feel words are really powerful and semantics are really important. I would look at it as 50 to 70 carbs from fruit, that's the way I would look at it. All of that said, some people do really, really well on fruit and it works so well for them. It fixes their hunger. So many people in my group, historically, have been on a low carb, high-fat approach. And then, after listening to some of my episodes, like I did an episode with Cyrus and Robbie, who wrote Mastering Diabetes. That's at, melanieavalon.com/masteringdiabetes. I recently did an episode with Dr. Doug Graham who did The 80/10/10 Diet, that's at melanieavalon.com/801010. After listening to episodes like that, they decided to actually try a high carb, low fat approach.

This is not what Grace is experiencing, but many people have found that actually, finally they have satiety, they feel better, they lose weight. It's definitely something to try for a lot of people, if it's not working for you. Grace is experiencing hunger, then it might not be the thing that works for you.

Gin Stephens: Here's the thing, though, she did say that she's doing moderate protein, high carb, low fat and is loving it. I think the only problem is when she has a lot of fruit. It's like the fruit is causing her to not have satiety.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. Compared to grains or-- she's saying to the carbs need to be whole grain or complex carbs will work? Will refined carbs have a similar enough effect? Yeah, just you need to make sure that diet is low in sugar or is it just about the fat because we actually haven't had a question about that. We've received a lot of questions about going high carb, low fat. But we haven't had a question really about, could those carbs be processed sugar? Do they need to be grains? What they need to be complex? I think for most people, the refined form, if there is going to be a satiety problem, the refined form is probably not going to help you out in the satiety department. I would argue that probably a lot of the metabolic benefits that you're getting from the high-carb, low-fat approach are when it's in the whole foods form. It's really regulating your metabolism. Your body is preferentially using carbs when it needs to, it's entering the fasted state when you're fasted, but those blood sugar spiking, refined carbs are a completely different scenario.

I think they cause problems for a lot of people. I personally think it's important with a high carb, low fat to make them the whole food form of the carbs, and then trying to find the ones that work for you. For some people, it's the fruit. Some people do better with starches. I personally am not a big fan of grains, because I think they have a lot of inflammatory potential for a lot of people, but I think a lot of people can find grains that work for them. I personally love gluten-free options, like rice, quinoa, it's not technically a grain, but rice, quinoa, oats, things like that.

Then lastly, she said, “Can you gain fat eating refined carbs versus whole grains?” You can gain fat eating anything. I think you're more likely to gain fat 100% from refined carbs. Well, whole grains, I think in the refined form, you're most likely more likely to gain from refined forms of carbs. Then lastly, she says, “Is the definition of low fat 15% or less of a person's daily macros?” 15% is usually the highest that you'd want to go for the fat. If you are doing this approach. Oftentimes, it's as low as 10%. I don't remember in the Mastering Diabetes that they even-- I don't know if they even give macros. They might just do like a whole foods approach.

Gin Stephens: I swear I think it's 10%.

Melanie Avalon: Is it? I know 80/10/10 is obviously 10.

Gin Stephens: But I really feel I got that 10% after reading their book. I think they said it because that was when I looked to see what my DNA analysis had said and that was 10%. So, I was like, “Oh, look, these match.”

Melanie Avalon: Okay, from what I've seen in all the research, and Denise Minger, we talked about this a lot on this show, but she has an epic blog post that analyzes a high carb, low fat diet, and all the studies that she referenced, like you really had to be 10% or less of fat to see the benefits. That's something that when I interviewed them, we talked about that a lot. This also applies to the flip side of things with a low carb diet. Oftentimes, people really have to be 10%, or lower, be it from carbs or fat, depending on which version of what macros they're doing, to see that the metabolic benefits because it's like, if you have just a little bit too much, it's like you're shooting yourself in the foot, because you're giving your body too much of that one signal, even if it's by just a little bit, and then it's not really able to enter-- what Denise calls the “metabolic magic” that you can get from a high carb, low fat approach.

I'm just reading, this is really interesting, because I was searching through Mastering Diabetes. For example, in a low-fat diet, they say that and people who eat a high carbohydrate diet containing between 65% to 75% carbohydrate, this is 10% to 20% fat per day, de novo lipogenesis, which is fat created in your liver from carbs that accounted for less than 10 grams of newly synthesized fatty acids per day. Basically, if you are on a low-fat diet, really high carb, your liver is very inefficient at creating fat from the carbs, which is really fascinating. But, yeah, 10% would be a good place to start this really long. Gin, do you have thoughts?

Gin Stephens: I think we got them.

Melanie Avalon: I think so.

Gin Stephens: I think we did. If you find that fruit is making you have trouble with satiety, that's a big key that maybe-- the tweak that you've been having lately, where you're not having as much fruit, that might be what's working for you. I don't eat a ton of fruit personally. So, yeah, listen to your body. Boom.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that made me think of one more thing because she asked what might be going on there with the hunger. This has been my theory for a long time, and I still think this might be the case for a lot of people. It's what the Ray Peat people talk about a lot. That is that, your body's potential to rely on glycogen storage-- Oh, and actually something else to say about this, because this came up a lot in-- I've been listening to a podcast-- did I send it? I think I sent it to you, Gin, the recent Peter Attia podcast about metabolism.

Gin Stephens: You sent me something, I didn't have time to listen to it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm still listening to it and it's like, A, I need to finish it. B, I need to listen to it three more times. C, I need to see if there's a transcript and I need to read the transcript. It is the deepest, deepest dive into metabolic dysfunction and how that relates to processing fuels, glycogen storage, fatty acids, I mean, it's insulin resistance, it is blowing my mind. Something that he talks about in that is that, like with insulin resistance, where is the issue-- it's much more of a deep dive even then Dr. Benjamin Bikman’s book, which I recently had on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, his book is Why We Get Sick, which is all about insulin resistance. The Peter Attia episode which I put in our Intermittent Fasting podcast, Stuff We Like playlist on the Himalaya app, it's like a mystery novel. They're talking about where is the actual issue happening with the body's inability to use insulin and use food fuels properly. One of the things they talk about is basically the muscles inability to take up glucose, basically our glycogen storage potential and the muscles inability to properly use and take up carbs. I think that's what's happening a lot with this is, for whatever reason, the body is insulin resistant and not taking up the “sugar” from the fruit. It can create these blood sugar swings. I need to finish that episode. I'm going to try to do that today. I will probably just start it over listening from the beginning, it's that whole thing.

Gin Stephens: Listening to you describe it, tells me I could never follow it. I'm not a good auditory learner.

Melanie Avalon: It's intense when Peter at the beginning gives an intro saying like, “This is really intense--” because all of his shows are really intense. Any of his episodes that you listened to, they can be hard to follow. When he gives a preface saying that this is really, really deep, then you know it's going to be. I posted in my Facebook group and so many people, I'm jealous, they did listen to it and have been reporting back already. I'm like, “I’ve got to get on that.” That was a lot of tangents. Last thoughts from you, Gin?

Gin Stephens: No, that was it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners, before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. You can get all this stuff we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram. Gin, how is Instagram going?

Gin Stephens: I'm really doing better. I'm mindfully using it. Also, here's something funny. I had the app inside of a folder on my home screen, and so I took it out, just having it out of the folder and I see it, and I think about it more.

Melanie Avalon: I'm looking on your Instagram right now and I see your face.

Gin Stephens: There I am. I actually posted it during while we were recording. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yes, 46 minutes ago.

Gin Stephens: I did it while we were recording.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, in your house with your cats galore.

Gin Stephens: Well, the one I posted was me in front of the fireplace.

Melanie Avalon: The swamp. There's a picture of the swamp you went to.

Gin Stephens: Yep, there's the swamp. If you go to Instagram, you can see--

Melanie Avalon: You guys, visuals.

Gin Stephens: You can see the swamp. Oh, and also you can see that my college, Wake Forest, is going to the Duke’s Mayonnaise Bowl. Is that not the funniest thing you've ever heard of?

Melanie Avalon: That's fabulous.

Gin Stephens: It will have already happened by the time this podcast comes out, but I'll just see that on Instagram. Duke's Mayonnaise Bowl, but that's my favorite mayonnaise. So, boom.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh. That's so funny. Did you see I posted a video, a biohacking video?

Gin Stephens: No, I don’t watch any videos.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I posted my first. Wait, Gin, look at my Instagram later, I posted to Reels. Listeners, I'm doing Reels now. It makes me so happy because you know I love film. I went to film school. This is like, I'm like, “Oh, I can be like making videos.” I posted one if you go to my profile, one of me putting on a CGM. So, you can see what that's like, and then one about--

Gin Stephens: Is it like a live video?

Melanie Avalon: You'll see it. If you go to my Instagram, there's two recent ones, they look very red because I'm in my Joovv red light. There's a little video icon in the top right corner. Those are the Reels. So I put one of how to put on a CGM, so friends can see that. And then I put one of kind of a joke, when he finds out that you are a biohacker, like somebody you're dating. You have to watch it because it has music that it makes it a joke.

Gin Stephens: Well, do not expect to see me doing Reels, just FYI. I will not do Reels. If you're lucky, you'll see cats and things like that.

Melanie Avalon: I am obsessed. I have one that I'm going to really soon it's going to be my night routine. I got such an amazing response to the dating biohacking one that I sort of wanted to create an app now for dating, for biohackers.

Gin Stephens: We've actually had people joke that they would like an intermittent fasting dating app.

Melanie Avalon: Well, actually, that's what-- I was doing by hacking, but then I was like, it should be an--

Gin Stephens: Honestly, people have suggested that.

Melanie Avalon: Gin, we should do it.

Gin Stephens: For real.

Melanie Avalon: You know what it could be called? I already came up with a name. Do you want to hear the name? You know window shopping?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, it's because window dating.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's funny.

Melanie Avalon: And it can be based on your window.

Gin Stephens: Unfortunately, my app developer said no more apps for you, Mama. That's my son. [laughs] He should not be so quick to do that because the Window app that he made for me, he made it for me, but then he sold it. I didn't see a penny from that. I mean, I didn't make any money from the Window app at all. I went to him, which is indirectly helpful because it was my son, and so I didn't have to give him any money. He had money. He spent a lot of time working on that Window app. So, he's like, “Nope, done with that. Done with apps.” I'm like, “Okay.”

Melanie Avalon: I'm proposing that you and I make a Window Dating app.

Gin Stephens: Window Dating app. That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: We could promote it on this show and the groups.

Gin Stephens: All right, listeners, write in, let us know. Are you interested in that?

Melanie Avalon: Would you want this? Because I want to do it.

Gin Stephens: I don't know that. I don't want to date. I'm married.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I don't want to--- No, I actually wouldn't use it. I wouldn't use it. I'd be the worst person to develop it. I've never even opened a dating app.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to be celebrating my 30th anniversary this year in 2021. So, 30 years married. We didn't have apps.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I just don't date, so solves that problem. We should do it.

Gin Stephens: Again, neither of us know how to do it. We don't know anything about dating apps.

Melanie Avalon: I'll figure it out. I can suck it up and use a dating app for research purposes.

Gin Stephens: That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: Wouldn’t that be funny? I could start going-- [crosstalk]

Gin Stephens: The joke was, you know how they had that commercial farmersonly.com? farmersonly.com or something. I don't know. We could be fastersonly.com.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I like it. That would be a really good movie plot. Somebody's doing research for dating apps, so they have to use the apps and then they fall in love obviously, and then you know--

Gin Stephens: Well, there you go, see. And they're intermittent fasters and-- it would need to be an intermittent fasting movie.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, well, I could be testing my own app. I'd have to use the other apps to figure out--

Gin Stephens: What you liked and what you didn't.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Listeners, I do not think we're going to be developing this app, I'm just telling you.

Melanie Avalon: I think we are.

Gin Stephens: Do not look for this app anytime soon.

Melanie Avalon: I'm doing it. I'm going to hang up and I'm going to go call somebody right now.

Gin Stephens: You're going to join the dating apps? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: No, I actually been thinking about this a lot. The one thing I'm hesitant about is, I feel the customer service issue because my app right now, I mean, it's doing so well and I think I said this, it hit number five for Food and Drinks Apps in iTunes, which was so exciting, and it was developed by Cal, Gin’s son, but it doesn't really have a lot of like customers-- I don't have to deal with customer service. I feel with a dating app.

Gin Stephens: You would. See, Cal does app stuff for Airbnb, but he's on one tiny little team, I can't even remember what it is. There are so many people who work just on that one app, for example for Airbnb. It's not like one person does it. It's like teams of people for each little thing. It's way more complicated when you have users doing.

Melanie Avalon: It would require more. For me, it wouldn’t.

Gin Stephens: I think it would.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe we could do it all ourselves.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Listeners, do not be on the lookout for this anytime soon.

Melanie Avalon: Write in now and tell us that you want this. Convince Gin, I'm already sold.

Gin Stephens: That's funny.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Okay. Well, this has been wonderful.

Gin Stephens: It's been fun.

Melanie Avalon: Anything else from you, Gin? Oh, right, follow us on Instagram. She's GinStephens. I'm MelanieAvalon. Now I'm done. Anything from you, Gin, before we go.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I see that you just liked my picture that I posted while we were recording. Do you see how good my hair looks in the picture? I'm just going to say that's Beautycounter shampoo. My hair looks so much better.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, your hair looks fabulous.

Gin Stephens: Doesn't it? I just use Beautycounter shampoo, that's it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm Beautycounter shampoo.

Gin Stephens: How could one kind of shampoo? They don't have all these varieties. It's one kind, I was like, “Yeah, that's not going to work.” Well, alas, it does. My hair looks so good now. That's all I'm saying.

Melanie Avalon: All of my pictures of my hair's Beautycounter shampoo as well. Friends, go get Beautycounter shampoo right now. You can get that melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Jan 03

Episode 194: ADF, Poor Fasted Sleep, Sugar Cravings, Reversing Prediabetes, HbA1c, Other People’s Expectations, Body Image Problems, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #70 - Kara Collier (Nutrisense)

Welcome to Episode 194 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: Danielle - Sleep And IF

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Listener Q&A: Allison - Sugar cravings once I open my window

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Listener Q&A: Nelson - Other people's Expectations

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 194 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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You can start off the year right with up to 10 pounds of free meat for a limited time, ButcherBox is offering new members their ultimate keto bundle. When you sign up today at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, you'll get one pork butt, two pounds of grass-fed, grass-finished beef, and three pounds of bone and chicken thighs all for free in your first box. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. I'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that what you put on your skin gets direct access to your bloodstream and in your body can do a lot of detrimental things? So, while you may be fasting clean, you may at the same time be infusing your body with endocrine disrupters, which can mess with your hormones, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight and even carcinogens.

In Europe, they've banned thousands of these compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup, and the US has banned less than 10. In fact, most conventional lipstick for example is high in lead, and the half-life of lead in the body can be up to 30 years. That means every time you put on some lipstick, you might be putting some lead into your bones, which might not leave for three decades. This is a big deal. Thankfully, there's an easy all-encompassing answer.

There's a company called Beautycounter, and they were founded on a mission to make skincare and makeup products that are safe for your skin. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to not burden your body and support your skin health. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order.

If you'd like to learn more about safe beauty and also get a ton of amazing discounts and free things from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. Not sure which Beautycounter products to try? I also just made a whole series of online quizzes to match you to your perfect product. Those are at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. So, here's to fasting clean inside and out. All right. Now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 194 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am doing great. How are you doing?

Melanie Avalon: Good. Last night, I had my much belated birthday dinner with my family.

Gin Stephens: How was that?

Melanie Avalon: It was good. It was very much like a Melanie Dinner.

Gin Stephens: What does that mean, a Melanie Dinner?

Melanie Avalon: I had for the appetizer kangaroo.

Gin Stephens: Oh my gosh, I don't even know where you get that. I do eat meat, so I don't know why a kangaroo? It made me sad.

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know.

Gin Stephens: I was like, “Aww.”

Melanie Avalon: It's a normal thing to eat in Australia.

Gin Stephens: I guess it is. It's silly to feel that way about like one meat over another meat if you're eating meat. I also think kangaroos might be mean.

Melanie Avalon: I think they are, and I think there's also like a kangaroo population issue in Australia.

Gin Stephens: Oh. I just know when we used to watch like America's Funniest Home Videos as a family. Did you ever watch that?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Whenever there was a kangaroo, I'm like, “Oop, he's going to kick somebody.”

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: If they were standing by the river, I'm like, “Oop, they're going to kick them in the river.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh, that's so funny. For people who are interested, it's a lean red meat.

Gin Stephens: Does it remind you of beef when you eat it?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's just a little bit gamier, so that was the appetizer. For the entree, I had rabbit.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Then, for the dessert, I didn't even ask them for this, but they brought me out a Happy Birthday plate and a fruit bowl with just berries. I was like, “This is the only thing I would eat for dessert.” The waiter was like, “I think after two hours, I realized that.”

Gin Stephens: [laughs] You didn't have any sides, you just had the kangaroo meat itself and the rabbit meat itself.

Melanie Avalon: And steamed spinach.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Then, for the wine, I brought Dry Farm Wines, but I don't like bringing my own wine because I know servers get really annoyed, having been a fine dining server myself for five years. If listeners are curious, for restaurants, how I deal with wine at restaurants, I bring Dry Farm Wines, but then I pick a restaurant that has a really good wine list, and I vet the menu when I get there. If there is an organic wine from Europe, I will drink that. I had an organic wine from Europe by the glass and then my dad always does this, halfway through, he just orders a bottle. Out of all the bottles, he picked an organic wine without even realizing it. It was wonderful. We had that.

Gin Stephens: See, I actually have taken special wine to restaurants before that have a corkage fee.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I don't mind if I want to have a certain one.

Melanie Avalon: If I do do it, I will basically add in my head another $100 to the bill and tip on that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you tip based on if they had ordered one. That makes sense. Yeah. I worked as a server, too. That's actually where Chad and I met. Did I ever tell you that? We were waiting tables--

Melanie Avalon: You waited tables together?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, at the same restaurant. That's where we met, back in 1990. It was the summer of 1990. He was 19, I was 20, and we were both waiting tables at a restaurant down by the river. We were babies. But yes, whenever you have a special deal, any kind of special deal, you want to tip on the amount that would have been if you didn't have a special deal.

Melanie Avalon: We can make this an entire server podcast.

Gin Stephens: I'm a generous tipper. Although I will say one of my pet peeves, it was whenever tips are automatically included. That bothers me. I have always would have tipped better, but it makes me annoyed.

Melanie Avalon: If they do that, then I just add to it.

Gin Stephens: I don't. If someone puts a gratuity on there automatically, I'm like, “Well, sad for you because that's all you're getting. I would have tipped you more.” That's just one of my pet peeves because I never add, even though you could, sometimes a certain party types, I never added. Sometimes I was regretful that I hadn't, but oftentimes it was worth it. Like usually it was.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, one of my favorite things now about, and I'm so grateful for this, but being financially stable from all of the-- like the podcasts and the books and all of that, is that I can afford to tip and it's my favorite thing to do.

Gin Stephens: Oh, me too.

Melanie Avalon: It brings me so much joy.

Gin Stephens: I'm the same way. I love to tip well. Again, like I said, someone automatically adding a gratuity is one of my pet peeves. I don't know why. I'm like, “I would have been more generous, but, oh, well, you chose that. Okay.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I guess because it's forced upon you.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I like to be generous because I want to be.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that makes sense.

Gin Stephens: That is a very Melanie meal.

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's the type of restaurants I look for.

Gin Stephens: I don't even know where you go to eat that food.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's called Canoe in Atlanta. I highly recommend it.

Gin Stephens: I've heard of that. I've heard of it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you have? All right, because we're both from-- [crosstalk]

Gin Stephens: Well, I lived in the Atlanta area. What part of Atlanta is it in?

Melanie Avalon: I should know this.

Gin Stephens: Is it like Buckhead?

Melanie Avalon: No, it's this little area. It's like an area that's not Buckhead. I don't know. There's another restaurant right by it that I've been to called Old Vinings Inn.

Gin Stephens: That sounds like Vinings.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's probably it. Yeah. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I would predict you're in Vinings.

Melanie Avalon: I think so. I believe that is correct.

Gin Stephens: That's great.

Melanie Avalon: Good times.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm glad you had a good dinner.

Melanie Avalon: I did. Of course, when the dinner first started, the waiter came over, and he was like, “I hear we're celebrating your birthday.” Then, my mom was like, “Yes, her--” and then she proclaimed my age to the entire restaurant. I was like, “Thanks, Mom. Thank you.”

Gin Stephens: Embrace it. Embrace the age.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, well, perhaps.

Gin Stephens: I'm telling you, it's going to keep getting higher. And then, you--

Melanie Avalon: Unless we invent time travel or-- I don't know. I'm interviewing Mr-- Like some crazy longevity a person. I think maybe he has some secrets.

Gin Stephens: All right. He's crazy, or his ideas are crazy? Or, he likes crazy longevity? I'm trying to determine which part is crazy.

Melanie Avalon: Crazy in like-- he's not crazy, but he invests in longevity technology. I think our conversation is going to be about like Avatars and that type of stuff.

Gin Stephens: So really out there, but like futuristic kind of stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Like the technological future of longevity, like what that actually looks like. So, I'm pretty excited.

Gin Stephens: Well, we do have robot vacuums now, so we're pretty much in the future.

Melanie Avalon: I dreamed about my robot vacuum last night. So, that's really funny that you said that.

Gin Stephens: I don't have one. Well, see, my house is weird. I have a sunken living room right in the middle. It's a two-story sunken living room, and you come in the foyer and you step down to it and you step up to the dining room or step up to the kitchen, and it might sound weird, but it's beautiful. My house was built in ‘79. I don't know where I would put a robotic vacuum because it can't go up these little stairs.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, we talked about that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Well, you could get the one that makes a map of your house and then you can map it so that it doesn't fall. And then, you could get two, one on the lower, one of the upper.

Gin Stephens: Well, I would need one for the master bedroom and the foyer. It's crazy the way the rooms go around. Yeah. I would need, let me see, one, two, three-- I would need five. Five robotic vacuums.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, maybe not.

Gin Stephens: You know what's funny? Chad loves to vacuum. I got one of those Dyson, it's the cordless that plugs in where there's little ones. I had all these credits for Best Buy because we bought a washer and dryer. If you put it on their credit card, you got all these credits. I'm like, “All right, I'll do that.” I was able to get this Dyson really expensive vacuum for very cheap. Chad will go grab it-- He had never once in the lifetime of knowing him gotten out our big vacuum and vacuumed the house. Every day or something, he'll go grab that little cordless vacuum and go around the house and vacuum stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Still?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs]

Gin Stephens: He did it this morning. I was actually trying to watch TV, and he's vacuuming. Look, I'm not even going to complain.

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny.

Gin Stephens: I'm just going to sit here and pause the TV and not worry about it. The man's vacuuming. I've got a robot vacuum, it's called Chad.

Melanie Avalon: That's great. You know what else Dyson makes? They make vacuums and then they expanded their products and made something very specific.

Gin Stephens: I know they have a hairdryer. What is it? Is that it?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, like a hairdryer. Apparently, they put a lot of research into the science of hairdryers to make this crazy hairdryer. I got it. It's incredible.

Gin Stephens: Okay, now see, I'm a little mad now because I had the option to choose that for something that I might want, and I did not choose that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's really wonderful.

Gin Stephens: I’ve got a good hairdryer, I don't need--

Melanie Avalon: I got the straightener, too. The straightener is okay. But the hairdryer, I'm like, “Everybody needs this hairdryer.”

Gin Stephens: How's it special?

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. It looks really strange.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's weird. It's like a doughnut kind of.

Melanie Avalon: I don't even know how it works. It has this circle. It looks very futuristic and the air comes through. I literally have no idea where the air is coming from, but it blows out of this hollow circle thing. It's light, easy to hold, and it just dries my hair really fast. Apparently, the science that they did is they make sure it never changes-- The temperature is very tightly controlled of the air, so it doesn't ever overheat your hair. I don't know. It's really amazing.

Gin Stephens: Now, I'm super sad that I didn't choose it.

Melanie Avalon: Next time. So, shall we jump into everything?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right. To start things off, we have a question from Danielle and the subject is “Sleep and IF,” because this is the Intermittent Fasting podcast if people didn't figure that out yet. Danielle says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. I have a question about ADF,” which is alternate-day fasting and sleep. I don't struggle with the hunger on ADF, but it has a massive impact on my sleep. Even after doing it for a few months, I never adjust and have very poor sleep on these nights. Usually, my sleep is really good.

My background. I'm currently 121 pounds with muscle as I lift weights two times a week and would prefer to be around 112 to 114 pounds. I am 5’4”, so this is around the lower end of a healthy BMI range. I usually have a three- to four-hour eating window each day and often longer on the weekends, eight hours. I eat everything, but mostly fish plus salad or vegetables, or chicken plus salad, or other meat plus salad, or pasta during the week. On weekends, I may go out for brunch and dinner. So, I have a varied diet, but mostly whole foods with minimal junk foods, although I never ever deny myself anything. I always eat to satiety.

I've never been overweight, and I've always weighed around 116 to 120 pounds since age 14. I'm currently 34 years old. I actually have technically time-restricted eating unconsciously since being a teenager because I never ate breakfast anyway. With this way of eating, I easily stay at 121 pounds without any effort. Actually, I am usually slightly lighter, but I gained two pounds since lifting weights at the start of this year, but my inches are smaller. I can't seem to lose and stay at a lower than my current weight. This is where my body likes to be. I tried ADF again recently for two months and lost inches but not much weight, maybe four pounds, but couldn't maintain the eating style because of the impact on sleep. I gained back the little loss that I had after stopping again.

Anything you suggest would be very helpful. I'm even happier being only five pounds less but can't even seem to do that easily. Thank you, and I love your show. I've listened every week since your first episode. You both carefully evaluate research and are critical of fats, which I really like. It's so lovely having an all-women show that is thoughtful and scientific, and you're both careful not to overstep your expertise in the area of health, which is refreshing. I also really enjoy that you each have different opinions with some things and don't need to agree with everything the other says, I think this demonstrates your modesty about your wealth of knowledge on the topic and willingness to adapt beliefs based on science. Danielle.”

Gin Stephens: All right. Well, there's two things here, two directions that I'm going to go. First of all, I'm going to address the actual first part of the question, but then I'm going to talk about Danielle's struggle overall. First of all, let's talk about sleep with ADF. Danielle, I was the same way. I did not sleep on down days when I was doing ADF. Particularly, I was doing the full fast version of ADF. So, I would have a 36 to 42 hour fast, and then the next day would be an up day. So, I'd have at least two meals on the up days, that's how I recommend that you do it based on the research on ADF. I'm talking about the up day. There's two ways you can structure your down day.

One is the complete fast like I said, 36 to 42 hours. The alternate way you can structure your down day is with a 500-calorie down-day meal. For somebody struggling with sleep, I would recommend that you try that version, the 500-calorie down-day meal and choose something-- a lot of people have trouble stopping at 500 calories. But if you choose something strategically, something that is very satisfying, it will fill you up and you have it later in the day, closer to bedtime, you may find that you're able to sleep with the down day meal. That's just an option. It helps some people. Really, that is why I feel I won't do ADF. I was not a good sleeper on ADF, no matter, it wasn't a good sleep combination for me. I get it. If I needed to do ADF for any certain reasons if I felt I needed it metabolically or something like that, if I was stuck on a plateau and trying to lose more weight, I might would do it for a little while, but the sleep was the issue for me. A lot of people don't have that problem. They sleep great with ADF, whether they're doing the longer fasts or the down day version, but sleep is important and we're all different. So, I completely get the struggle and that was one I faced as well.

Now, let's talk about your weight. You're 5’4”. Now, I know we're all different and there's no formula that's perfect, and I know that. Your frame size can be important, you might have a really tiny dainty frame. I'm bearing that in mind. I once heard a formula that I kind of like as a rule of thumb and it was 100 pounds for your first five feet and then five pounds per inch after that. If we calculate your-- that is to find your “ideal weight,” because as I said, there are a lot of factors at play. But for 5’4”, using that formula, your “ideal weight” would be 120 pounds, and you're right there at 121. The difference between 120 and 121 is a good poop. That's within your maintenance range. I would consider 121 to be statistically the same as 120.

You also said something that was very important, several things. First of all, you said, “I can't seem to lose and stay at a lower weight than my current weight.” One thing I have found over my years of maintenance, my years of maintaining within the range where I am now, this is where my body likes to be, and that really is why I threw my scale away because when I started thinking about my ideal weight, using that formula that I just told you, that would put my ideal weight, I'm 5’5”, I should be 125 pounds at my ideal weight. I got it in my head that I needed to see that number. I didn't wait for a year and then I got on the scale, and I felt like I was at my ideal weight because I was wearing a size zero jeans from the Loft. I knew I didn't need to lose more weight or really want to lose more weight, so I had it in my brain that I would see 125 on the scale.

I got on the scale that day in 2017 and saw 130.2 or some nonsense like that and I was so mad because I wanted to see a different number. But then, I was mad that I was mad and that was the day I threw my scale away because I realized I was where my body wanted to be. I was maintaining within that range wearing the clothes that I felt great in. You have talked about that you have lost inches. When you started lifting weights, you gained two pounds, but your inches are down. This is just a great example of the fact that your body composition is better than it was. Your weight’s up, but your inches are down, that means fat loss and muscle gain. I think it's time for you to break up with the idea of needing to see a smaller number on the scale. Now, if you clearly look at yourself and see that you have excess fat that you can tell is a problem, yeah, that's another issue. I've said this before, maybe not on this podcast, I'm not sure, but I know I've said it on Intermittent Fasting Stories. Women are meant to be curvy and squishy. I'm at what I consider to be my ideal maintenance range weight. I've got squishy parts on me. I think that's how we're supposed to be, and we can get so caught up in feeling we have to be another way. You want to be in a weight range that you can comfortably maintain without having to do things that don't feel right to you. So, I just want you to think about that. Maybe you're exactly where you need to be.

Melanie Avalon: I love that. I feel like you threw away your scale when we had this show, right?

Gin Stephens: We did. Yeah, it was June of 2017 and we started the podcast in April of 2017. I haven't weighed myself since then, except till I got my Shapa scale that I love so much. I went gray on the Shapa of scale right before Thanksgiving because I'd been to the beach a couple times, I'd eaten a lot more, and I could feel it. Gray meant, slowly gaining a little weight. Then, I didn't do anything drastic or freak out, I just stayed on my normal routine. Then, I saw blue, which is losing weight. So, I gained a little weight, then I lost that weight, then Thanksgiving hit. I went to the green, and I've been on the green ever since. That's maintaining. I don't need to worry about the number. Sometimes, I'm curious what the number is, but I don't want to play those games with myself of like, “Man, if only I could just see 125,” because that number is meaningless.

Melanie Avalon: Do you know what does the vacation mode do on the Shapa scale?

Gin Stephens: Okay, the vacation mode, yeah, I do know what that is because you put it on vacation mode when you're not going to be home, or if you don't want to weigh and it doesn't count it against you with your weighing streak. Really, it's nothing, no, it's no big deal. It's just that Shapa will fuss at you for not weighing because you get off of your weighing streak. It wants you to weigh daily because that's really the whole premise of it is that it keeps track of your overall trend, so it needs the data. When I went to the beach and didn't have my scale because I'm not going to take my scale on vacation. I'm just not going to do that. I put it on vacation mode. Then, when I came back and got right back on it, I was off of vacation mode.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so it's not making any changes to how it interprets your--

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Because I was like, I don't understand how that would work, but that makes sense. I love what you said. I feel people who, which is a lot of us, get fixated on numbers, you can tell because the weight that you fixate on will be a very specific number, like 121.

Gin Stephens: She said she's always weighed between 116 and 120 since the age of 14, but she's still right there. She's still right there. She's like, “Oh, no, I'm 121.” That's fabulous, especially if you started weightlifting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. My question is because she really wants to lose five more pounds. Does that five pounds look any different on your body? Why?

Gin Stephens: That was why was that I mentioned the part about, do you see five extra pounds of fat on your body? Or, is it just you want to see that number on the scale? Because I can't imagine-- if she's been 116 to 120 since the age of 14, I can't imagine that she sees 5 extra pounds of fat at 121.

Melanie Avalon: I love everything that you said about the ADF. When people write into us about ADF, it is hard to know which version they're doing, because when I hear people doing ADF, I actually automatically assume they're doing the 500-calorie version. Do you assume they're doing--?

Gin Stephens: The full fast? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I can't sleep fasted. I just can't. I actually have a question for you, Gin, from me about ADF because I've thought about this before about how-- if I could do ADF, and actually do it, what would that look like? The only way I think I could do it and sleep would be if I did a 500-calorie meal, like you talked about and took a Benadryl.

Gin Stephens: Well, see, for me Benadryl keeps me awake because I'm the opposite. I have that ADHD brain, and Benadryl makes me wired.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Which is, of course, because we are the complete opposite in everything.

Gin Stephens: I'd be awake for the rest of my life. All those Tylenol PMs and Benadryl, that's the same ingredient. But, no, I cannot sleep on Benadryl. I wouldn't do it. If something is making you not be able to sleep and you're having to take something like that, I wouldn't do it.

Melanie Avalon: This is just something that I thought about because I am not really a fan of-- I guess Benadryl is technically a pharmaceutical. I'm a fan of not doing things like that if you can at all help it, but I have thought before I'm like, the cost benefits of doing ADF with Benadryl. This is just something I pondered.

Gin Stephens: I don't think you would like ADF because you wouldn't want the up day. I feel you wouldn't like the up day. You have to eat at least two meals, possibly three. I don't think you'd want to do that.

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: ADF is not for you, Melanie. It's not for me right now either. Like I said, I'm not ever going to say never. I won't say I will never do something again. But I feel I won't do ADF, and I'm not anti-ADF. I don't think it's bad, some people love it. They love it. It's what works best for their body. Some people are scared of it. I almost hate to say that I don't want to do it because then people are like, “Well, Gin doesn't like it, I'm not going to like it. I don't want to do it,” and then they dread it. But then, they start doing it and they love it. I don't want people to use my feelings about it. I'm not anti it, and I know people who love it. A lot of my moderators do it and love it.

Melanie Avalon: I wish I was one of those people, but I'm not.

Gin Stephens: Why? Why do you want to do it? Just to have a longer fast?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, mostly. If it works well for you, it seems like a really great lifestyle practice for those that works well for, so that's why .It's like for those people who do really thrive on a vegan diet, it's like I wish I was that person, but I'm just not.

Interestingly, really quick tangent, my sister was there with us last night and she is vegan. She said she had this huge realization that bread made her feel really awful. She was thinking it was the folic acid added, but I was like, but I don't know. I think it's probably the gluten. She said she had a huge epiphany pretty recently about just how much food makes her feel. I was like, “What do you eat?” She was telling me the foods that she eats in her vegan paradigm and they were actually-- so if I were to do paleo vegan, they were all that. It was like non-gluten-containing grains like rice, quinoa. It wasn't legumes. It was lentils, vegetables, fruits. I was like, “This is very paleo.” It was just really exciting and interesting-- It’s interesting because she's not really looked into paleo or doesn't really know any of the-- well, I don't know if she knows, but she doesn't hardcore focus on why certain foods may be inflammatory for certain people but to see her naturally gravitate to the foods in a vegan paradigm that I would consider to be the least inflammatory or a least problematic was, it was pretty cool.

Gin Stephens: She's listening to her body. It makes sense that the foods that worked for your body as far as like-- you gravitated to paleo foods, and she has too.

Melanie Avalon: What I was telling her was I wrote my book What When Wine-- well, it released in stores in 2018, but I wrote the first version in 2014. Despite everything that's happening, there's been so much research, so many findings since then, actually really all of it, I still pretty much feel the same with everything that I've seen since then about the potential inflammatory nature of the categories of foods and then same with the fasting. It's nice to see that, rather than being like, “Oh, I thought this was absolutely amazing.” And maybe it's not or-- yeah.

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I'm glad that she's figuring it out.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. I wanted to tell you about one of the most incredible resources for taking charge of your blood tests and lab work ever. I am a huge fan of a company called InsideTracker. They are actually a David Sinclair partnered company. What they do is they provide access to the blood tests that you need to be testing as well as interpretations, so that you can figure out what that all means.

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Gin Stephens: Our next question is from Allison, and the subject is “Sugar cravings once I open my window.” Hi, Gin and Melanie, I love your podcast and have been IF for about three weeks. I did IF about a year ago, but slowly went back to my old habits. During my first try of IF, I did a 16:8 window, I now have a five to six-hour eating window. I've noticed that I don't have cravings during the fasted state, but once I start eating, all I want is sugar. I usually open my window with something healthy like avocado and tomato. Once I'm satiated from a hunger standpoint, a major sugar craving kicks in. Have you heard of this and do you have any suggestions?”

Melanie Avalon: All right. Allison, thank you for your question. I feel there are probably three potential things that could be going on here. One is, especially since you talked about you did IF but then you went back to old habits, it could literally be a habitual thing that you associate eating with sugar, with those types of foods. So, it could just be the habit brain kicking in. Also, similar to that, it could be we know when we eat sugar that it releases feel-good neurotransmitters, so it could be just wanting a drug basically. That can seem a little bit intense, but when they do studies in rats, for example, rats prefer sugar to cocaine, which is crazy. So, it could be that, it could be a comforting thing like eating sugar makes us feel-- it sends our bodies a safety signal because of the calorie nature of it.

The third thing that it could be which is actually very different is, if she was opening her window with protein and then craving sugar, a case for that is often because we can get a reactive hypoglycemia from protein, and the sugar helps balance that out. But she's opening it with avocado and tomato, and feels satiated, and then has the sugar craving. So, I don't think it's that case. It really sounds habitual.

One of the things that I have heard is that the way you can identify if it's a craving is if it is for a very specific food, and you just want that one food. Because when you're hungry, and it's not a craving, you can think of lot of probably like whole foods that would tastes really delicious. But if it's like, “Oh, I really want Skittles,” or, “I really want cereal,” or, I really want this one specific thing, then it's quite often a craving. As for the advice-- Well, first of all, Gin, what are your thoughts about the source of this?

Gin Stephens: Well, first of all, one thing I think that is important is that she's only been doing IF for three weeks. We do see people who are still in the adjustment phase have a tendency to have that, that drive to eat more during their eating window when they're first starting as their bodies are adjusting. It has to do-- you're not well fueled yet in the fasted state because your body is still becoming fat adapted. So, you open your window and then bam, now you're craving that that energy that your body is not quite getting yet. When people find that, that calms down after they become fat adapted and adjusted to fasting, so I don't know if that's part of what's happening for you, but it could be because the timing is right.

Also, I mean I still get sugar cravings every day, sometimes. Well, I mean, not every day, but I do like to have something sweet. I don't think of it as a negative. I think of it as, why does every human crave something sweet? Why have we decided that that's bad and wrong if we all do it? What I do, and I've discovered if you've been listening to the podcast for a while, that too much sugar gives me restless legs. So, I'm mindful of what I choose and what I eat. But I do not beat myself up for wanting something sweet. Maybe I have a couple of Medjool dates. That satisfies that craving for something sweet, closes my window beautifully. I've been having smoothies to close my window. Now, these are smoothies made with whole foods, really high-quality foods. I talked about before. I'm loving Daily Harvest smoothies. If you go to the favorite things tab of ginstephens.com, I have a link there, but they're really high-quality ingredients, it satisfies my need to have something sweet. They don't have any added sugar. They're sweetened with things like a banana or dates. They also have things in there to balance it out like chickpeas, which might sound weird, but it's delicious. It balances it out with some protein and it's after my meal.

Yesterday, I actually had some vanilla ice cream because we had some still in the freezer from the holidays. I just had a little bit, and it wasn't a problem. I want you to think about this. If you're like bingeing on low-quality sugar things like packs of cookies, then obviously that would not be a good long-term strategy. But if you were like, “I love cookies, and I have cookies, and I'm craving a cookie and I'm going to have one,” or choose something, if you don't think cookies serve your body well, then think of something that would and have that. Melanie loves pineapple, that would meet her sweet craving. Don't feel guilt from it just because maybe you think that that we're not supposed to have anything that tastes sweet. I don't agree with that idea.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's so interesting with fruit. Some people, that works really well. For me, it works really well but some people that makes them more hungry. Knowing what type of sweet, so between the more simple sugars found in fruit compared to the more complex sugars found in something-- well, if you made like-- I'm paleo finding it, but if you made like a cookie out of starches, although that have sugar in it, so I guess that would be all of them.

One thing you could try is opening, because she said, okay, she opens with avocado and tomato. I know I said that some people will eat protein and then they crave the sweet because they need it to help process the protein without having a reactive hypoglycemia response. One thing you could do is open with avocado and tomato and protein. Opening with protein because protein is extremely satiating, and you might find that opening with that and fat which would be avocado, you might have less with the craving. Yes, I like what you said about that.

Gin Stephens: We have so much guilt around the whole idea of wanting to eat something sweet. I do think that, like you mentioned before, we know about the rats and the-- I'm talking about just refined sugar they'll just go to it more than just cocaine. Some people do have the areas of their brain that light up and they consider themselves to be sugar addicts, and they need to not have sugar and I'm talking about sugar itself. But then, some people have taken it to the point where they're like, well, anything like fruit, anything sweet is bad, and no one should ever have any of that. I'm not going to say that there aren't people that need to avoid that, and I understand. If someone says to me, “I can't eat fruit. Fruit is bad for my body,” I believe you. But I don't think we need to be caught up in the paradigm that craving something sweet means I'm bad and weak.

Melanie Avalon: The only context I would add, and it's 100%, it's not a moral thing. It's not bad and weak. The only caution I would add is if you are following a super high-fat, super low-carb diet, and you have a craving for something sweet, this is just something I thought for a really long time, but I think it's best if you've just had a really high-fat meal, and you're craving something sweet, I don't think it's the best to combine super high-fat with sugar in that situation. I like to-- personally, I would like ride it out with something like stevia or something like that, and then bring in carbs in the more of the context of not a ketogenic diet. That's just something I felt for a long time.

Gin Stephens: That's someone who is purposefully being ketogenic.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because I think what happens a lot is, and I've said this before on the show, but I feel like a lot of times people will do ketogenic diets and it's not satiating, and it's not really working for them that well, but they're eating like a super, super high-fat version. Then, they get sugar cravings, and then they're like, “Oh, whatever, I'll just eat all the sugar.” In that context, I think that can create a very unhealthy or potentially damaging metabolic state, in that acute moment. I've always thought that it's like coming off the keto diet if you want to bring back carbs. I think doing some fast, so addressing the craving with something sweet that's not actually sugar, and then doing your you're fast, and then the next day approaching it with more carbs in a lower fat context.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I think it's distinguishing between sugar craving and the craving for something sweet, because for me, it's the craving to have a little something sweet. Back in the day when I was trying keto, I made keto cheesecake and that satisfied the craving for something sweet.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Which I'm assuming you probably made it with--

Gin Stephens: Whatever all that stuff was. All the artificial stuff that you were using back in the day with that. Anyway, but I always had that little taste for something sweet that I needed. I don't think of it as a negative or a weakness.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's why I personally-- like I was doing low carb for a long time. I did for a while see it as a weakness or something like you just said, but then I realized I was much happier doing intermittent fasting and then having all the sweet that I wanted in the form of fruit and satiating that at night in my eating window, and that worked really well for me. I switched to a lower fat context for it.

Gin Stephens: The smoothies, we're really enjoying them. Chad and I'll split one. It's just so funny because for a while, he was like, “Let's just have fourth of one and save it.” And I'm like, “We're not doing it,” because he's one of those naturally thin people that has appetite correction. He's like, “I only want a little bit.” I'm like, “Well, then just throw it away. I'm making a new one tomorrow. We're not going to have a quarter of a smoothie every day.” [laughs] It is so funny. He's the person that will leave like two green beans on his plate.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I can't do that.

Gin Stephens: Just eat the green beans, eat the green beans.

Melanie Avalon: Especially when I go to restaurants, it's completely cleared. I always look around and people-- a lot of people do, not finished everything, and I'm like--

Gin Stephens: I do stop eating, sometimes I'll be like, “I've had enough of this chicken, you want the rest of this piece of chicken?” I'll hand that to him, he might eat it, or I just won't finish it. But two green beans or a quarter of a smoothie, no.

Melanie Avalon: I've always finished everything my entire life.

Gin Stephens: Really? I don't always but I tend to if it's something I'm really enjoying.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, that's funny.

Melanie Avalon: Shall we go to the next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. This comes from Nelson. We don't have the subject, but Nelson says, “Hey, ladies, I love your show. To make a long story short, I discovered IF--" this is a really old question, but I came across it and I just was like, “Oh, I have to read this. This is crazy.” He says, “I discovered IF by a group of extras at a shoot for Manhunt for Netflix where Melanie's name was mentioned early spring 2019.” This just cracks me up because I used to do that all the time. Doing extra on shows for TV and Netflix and stuff like that. So, it's funny to me that people were talking about me in that situation.

Gin Stephens: That is funny. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. I could have been on that set. Well, 2019, I could have been. He says, “I lost over 100 pounds now. It's not only the lifestyle I love, what I love is that I made it fit me. Do you know what I mean? Nothing drastic, just delay, don't deny. So simple. Now for my question, I'll reach maintenance at 180. I'm 224 today, I was 330. My wife thinks I'm too skinny. My mom too. Everybody around me is over 275 pounds and now they're all wondering what I am doing. I gave them your books, but my wife wants me heavier. What do I do? By the way, I'm a 56-year-old father of eight boys, married for 26 years. Happy fasting. Thank you for all that you do.”

Gin Stephens: This is a great question, Nelson, thank you for sharing it. I'm going to share a personal story from my life when I first was approaching my goal in 2015. Keep in mind that I had been 210 pounds most recently, and I had been up in that 180 to 200 range up and down around and there for a few years prior to hitting 210 and realizing that I was obese. My husband had been used to seeing me heavy. So, then when I was getting close to my goal weight, my initial goal was 135 pounds, because that was 75 pounds down, that seemed like a number that if I ever could just hit that 75 pounds down, 135 seemed perfection.

Then, I got there and I'm like, “Alright, I met my goal.” But then, I realized I did still have some fat to lose, which is true, I did. I did go on to lose at least five more pounds around in there to hit around 80 going. But the point I'm making is, when I hit that 135, my husband said, “You're too skinny.” He had seen me way less than that early in our marriage when I was younger, and he never said I was too skinny then. But after seeing me at 210 and then around the 180s for a while, suddenly, it was a big change to see me at 135. He was like, “Yeah, you don't lose any more weight. Do not lose any more weight.” I ignored him, did whatever I wanted to do. And he doesn't think I'm too skinny, even though I am two sizes down from where I was at that day, that I hit my goal and when he said don't lose any more weight, I'm two sizes down from that day and he does not think I'm too skinny now.

People have to adjust to the new you. Choose a way where you can healthily maintain and feel good in your skin. Don't fixate on the number. Maybe it's 180, you're 224 today, maybe it's 190, maybe it's 175. You don't know. Just let your body decide what feels right to you and what's easy for you to maintain. When you get there, your family will adjust to your new size. Our bodies do not want to be too skinny. So, it's really unusual that anyone would lose below a weight that is healthy for your body. I wouldn't stress out about that. Let them adjust and they'll see. What do you think about that, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's great. I think maybe when it comes up something that you can focus on rather than debating the weight is shift the focus to talking about how you feel health-wise, like how you're feeling better and have that discussion, rather than trying to be defensive about the weight or the size.

Gin Stephens: Right. We hear this a lot, that people will say, “Well, now everyone around me tells me I've lost too much weight, I'm getting too skinny.” Whenever anybody asks that, I say, “Alright, what's your height? What's your weight?” They're always in a healthy BMI range when they're saying this. I've never once had anybody say a weight that puts them below a healthy BMI range. It's just that I really think it takes time for people to adjust to the new you.

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Gin Stephens: This is from Rebecca, and the subject is “Bloodwork/Glucose.” “I have been clean fasting since March 1 of 2020. And I'm amazed how fit I feel and how loose my clothes are. I thought I was doing well prior until I realized by putting stevia in my coffee, eating sugar-free breath mints, I was compromising my fast. I know now. Here's my question. I was watching my A1c levels climb since the majority of my dad's side of the family all have diabetes. All of them. I was watching my level climb, and a year ago, my A1c reached 5.7, which is pre-diabetic. Since I got on track, it is now 5.5 for five months, which I thought would even drop more when I started to clean fast in March. Shouldn't that have dropped more? Also, my glucose level went from 89 in January 2020 to 100, and I fasted 15 hours. Any suggestions as to why that went up? Thank you so much. Sincerely, Rebecca.” She said, “By the way, I have your book, Gin, and also pre-ordered your new book coming out this month. I also bought The Obesity Code.” So, that lets me know she sent this in in June. At the time that she wrote this, she was only three months into intermittent fasting. That's important.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Thank you so much, Rebecca. For listeners, who are not familiar, HbA1c is, so we have our blood sugar that we can monitor which is in your blood. Then we have our HbA1c which shows longer-term effects of elevated blood sugar levels on our red blood cells. The turnover rate is three months. So, we tend to see changes in HbA1c on a three-month timeline. I'm so excited because I finally released my first episode. Had I released it last time we recorded, Gin, with Nutrisense?

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure if it had been released yet.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited because I actually just released two days ago, finally, finally, finally, the episode because Gin and I have been talking about CGMs so much on this show recently, which are continuous glucose monitors, which give you a real-time picture of your blood sugar levels throughout the day. I interviewed Nutrisense. There's two different companies that I was trialing. There's Nutrisense and Levels. I'm interviewing both of them and bringing them both and releasing episodes with both of them, but I did release just now the episode with Nutrisense, which is making CGMs accessible to the general public. The reason I'm talking about this is, we dive so deep, Rebecca, if you listen to that episode, I think it will help you so much. We went really deep into HbA1c, blood sugar levels, higher fasting blood sugar levels while fasting, like she says that she's fasting 15 hours and now her blood sugar was up from 89 to 100.

I will say one of the biggest things I've learned from wearing a CGM, because I've been wearing one for about a month and a half now, is just how for a lot of people and for me how much your blood sugar can change throughout the day. So, like you could measure one moment, and it might be 89 and then you might wait five minutes and measure it and it might be 100. It can really change that much.

Gin Stephens: It really does.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, based on a lot of factors. Interesting thing about HbA1c, that's why it is a better marker because you are seeing the longer-term effect. That said, in the interview, the founder Nutrisense, her name is Kara Collier. She was actually talking about some of the potential issues with HbA1c, and there is some debate about factors affecting it and how reliable it is. But all of that said, it is possible-- and this is something that I asked Kara, because a lot of people doing fasting and/or low carb diets, actually find that they’d start having higher fasted blood sugar levels, usually around like 100, kind of what Rebecca is experiencing. The question I asked Kara this, I also asked at Levels, her name was Casey, I asked her as well. I am very curious about people who are doing fasting-- and we don't know if this is the case with Rebecca, but a lot of people who are doing fasting, doing low carb, and experiencing a slightly elevated fasted blood sugar, the flip side is they don't tend to be getting the huge spikes. When they're eating, they're not getting these crazy high blood sugar levels, but the fasted blood sugar, maybe at a higher baseline. I am personally really curious, and I don't know that we have the answer to this yet about the cost-benefit of all this and how it is affecting things like HbA1c and things like that.

The point of all this is, Rebecca, if this does continue to be a thing, especially since you really want to take charge of this, I would really, really recommend getting a CGM if that is a possibility for you. You can go to melanieavalon.com/nutrisensecgm, and the coupon code, MELANIEAVALON, will get you 15% off and they do have a two-week one. I don't think the code works for that. They have a two-week one and they have like three months and six months in different plans. Anybody who is trying to figure out their blood sugar levels, their HbA1c, they're fasting, the foods they're eating, how it's affecting them, the CGM might really, really help. Her question is any suggestions as to why it went up? It could be the fasting, it could be just when you tested it, when you took that blood sugar draw. It could be that maybe if you tested it at a slightly different time that it would have been in the 80s as well.

Gin Stephens: That was mind blowing to me from wearing the CGM. Then I was like, well, this is now a meaningless question because it just really could have been five minutes earlier, you could have had-- or 30 minutes earlier, it could have been completely different.

Melanie Avalon: It's really shocking, actually.

Gin Stephens: It really surprised me a lot how much it varied from minute to minute, even in the fasted state. You assume that when you're fasted, it is just steady there. But no, your body is constantly keeping it within this range. Your liver dumps some more glycogen, it just keeps going up and down within this range.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and that's something that's really good about doing like Nutrisense because you have an app with it and you can see, has like tables and charts. Even if it's changing, you can see where the general line is, and then it gives you scores. It does all the analyzing for you. It makes sense of the data to let you know if things are potentially a problem or not. The other thing really cool about Nutrisense is-- and you can opt-out if you don't want this, but they actually talk to you via email or via chat, I think, in the app, and give you advice and guidance and can interpret your results for you, which I was like, “Wow, this is pretty cool.” It's very, very tailored to helping you figure things out. If you really want to figure it out, that could definitely be something that could help you. I found for me that I wasn't like super happy with my fasted blood sugar levels, and I started supplementing with berberine that had a profound effect on my fasting blood sugar. I'll put a link in the show notes to the berberine that I'm taking. It's the Thorn brand. But yeah.

Gin Stephens: I also want to put out there. We don't know, this is really important, the A1c is a measure of your past two to three months of blood sugar. It gives you that average. It had been 5.7, it got to 5.5, and she said she thought it would drop even more when she started to clean fast in March. So, I don't know when her A1c was tested. She's only been doing clean fasting for three months, so I imagine that her A1c was tested at some point within that three months of the clean fast. That's really not much time. It takes people a lot longer to see positive changes in their A1c than just at first because our bodies, we have the adjustment period for intermittent fasting. Our bodies are doing a lot of changing, a lot of healing. So, it's not like it happens overnight. Like now, I'm fasting everything's fixed. Now, it might take a year for you to see, you see the trend over time, maybe get it tested every three months. And hopefully every three months, you'll see that trend getting better, but not at first, and she's still really right there in the beginning.

Melanie Avalon: She hasn't mentioned at all what she's eating. If what you're eating, you're massively spiking your blood sugar, and depending on how long it's taking for that blood sugar to come down, that could be a huge factor. I don't think people can always fast themselves out of foods that aren't working for us. So, hopefully, that was helpful.

A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/Episode194.

Oh, listeners, for Episode 200 we are going to do an Ask Me Anything Episode. So, if you have any questions, you can ask Gin and I anything about our personal lives or anything, our opinions on whatever. So, just send us those questions and put AMA in the title so we know that that's what it's for. You can get all of this stuff we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. I wanted to mention because I was talking about Dry Farm Wines in the beginning, you can get a bottle for a penny from Dry Farm Wines at dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast.

Gin Stephens: Ooh, can I tell you what I got Chad for Christmas?

Melanie Avalon: Dry Farm Wines?

Gin Stephens: I did.

Melanie Avalon: You did? Oh.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I've ordered him-- I'm not drinking wine right now, but he's drinking wine. He has literally gone through my Dry Farm Wines because that's all he wants to drink now. I was like, “I'm going to get him some Dry Farm Wines.”

Melanie Avalon: I'm doing that for my dad too.

Gin Stephens: I love it.

Melanie Avalon: Does he drink red?

Gin Stephens: Chad likes red. Yeah, he prefers red. I got him a box. Yeah, and you can get a gift box. I don't know if people know you can do that. You can send someone a gift box.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you can do like a one-off.

Gin Stephens: Yep. You don't have to send a subscription.

Melanie Avalon: I've been gifting myself because I'm going faster than my subscription.

Gin Stephens: When I was doing that, I was going faster than my subscription, I would just go in and change the next ship date.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I've done that, and I've done gift box.

Gin Stephens: But anyway, so I've got to try to figure out how to intercept the box before he sees it because he's home for the semester there. He's grading final exams. I'm just going to be standing at the curb waiting for it to deliver.

Melanie Avalon: “Don't look. [laughs] Don't look while I sign for this heavy box.”

Gin Stephens: When I see that it's out for delivery. I'll be like, “Please go do a lot of shopping for me at the grocery store.” Anyway, I just had to throw that in about Dry Farm Wines because we love it.

Melanie Avalon: Love them. If you'd like to get a bottle for a penny, you can go to dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, and you can follow us on Instagram, the place to be, with Gin and I. [laughs] I'm starting to have the time on my life there. I'm Melanie Avalon, Gin is Gin Stephens. No, friends, for reals, follow me. I'm doing a lot of giveaways. For the CGM episode, I'm giving away a CGM.

Gin Stephens: Woo, can I enter-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Sure. If you win, I'll be like, “Nope.”

Gin Stephens: Okay, never mind.

Melanie Avalon: No, you can enter. Enter, and then when I do the drawing--

Gin Stephens: I cannot win. That's fine. Okay.

Melanie Avalon: I will die if it lands on you. That'd be so funny.

Gin Stephens: That would be funny.

Melanie Avalon: No, every episode that I release now if they have something that is giveawayable, I'm asking them if they'll give it away.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's a good idea.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so it's been CGM. So, that giveaway will probably be over, but there might be another one going on when this comes out in January. Happy 2021, Gin.

Gin Stephens: Awesome. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Happy January 4th to you.

Gin Stephens: We're recording this way in the past, but I think we're all ready for some 2021.

Melanie Avalon: I think so. Gin is GinStephens on Instagram. I think that is everything.

Gin Stephens: I think so too.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, anything else from you before we go?

Gin Stephens: Still no. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Dec 20

Episode 192: Food Sensitivities, Using Food Sense Guide (How To), Plateaus, Maca Powder, Bingeing, Emotional Eating, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #62 - Dr. Becky Campbell

Welcome to Episode 192 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

AUDIBLE: This is Melanie's well-known secret for reading #allthebooks #allthetime! Audible provides the largest selection of audiobooks on the planet, in every genre! With Audible, you can listen on any device, anytime, anywhere! Every month, members get 1 credit to pick any title, unlimited Audible Originals, access to daily news digests (The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and The Washington Post), guided meditation programs, Audible Sleep, and more! Audible provides rollover credits, easy exchanges, discounts on titles beyond credits, and audiobooks you'll keep forever! For those with children, check out the free Stories.Audible.com! Go To audible.com/ifpodcast Or Text IFPODCAST To 500500 For A 30 Day Free Trial, Including A Free Audiobook!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical May Happen After Your First Order!

Check Out Shapa Scale And Use The Promo Code IFStories To Save $20

The Cancer Code: A Revolutionary New Understanding Of A Medical Mystery (Dr. Jason Fung)

Listener Feedback: Shelly - Feedback for Food Sense Guide

FOOD SENSE GUIDE: Get Melanie's App To Tackle Your Food Sensitivities! Food Sense Includes A Searchable Catalogue Of 300+ Foods, Revealing Their Gluten, FODMAP, Lectin, Histamine, Amine, Glutamate, Oxalate, Salicylate, Sulfite, And Thiol Status. Food Sense Also Includes Compound Overviews, Reactions To Look For, Lists Of Foods High And Low In Them, The Ability To Create Your Own Personal Lists, And More!

Melanie's Email List

Dry Farm Wines: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To DryFarmWines.com/IFPodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

AUDIBLE: Go To Audible.com/IFPODCAST Or Text IFPODCAST To 500500 For A 30 Day Free Trial, Including A Free Audiobook!

Listener Q&A: Becky - Fasting Window Time

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #27 - Nick Ortner

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #45: Glenn Livingston, Ph.D.

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #68 - Glenn Livingston, Ph.D.

Never Binge Again: How Thousands of People Have Stopped Overeating and Binge Eating - and Stuck to the Diet of Their Choice! (By Reprogramming Themselves to Think Differently About Food.) Glenn Livingston, Ph.D.

Listener Q&A: Amanda - Maca Root and Katie's Question episode 187

Listener Q&A: Katie - Sleep, Paleo and a Plateau, oh my

Kiss My Keto C8 MCT Oil

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 192 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of our sponsors, Prep Dish. Prep Dish is changing the way thousands of families do mealtime. Here's how it works. Prep Dish thoughtfully crafts a week's worth of gluten-free and paleo meals that feature seasonal ingredients to make the most of your budget, save you time and surprise your taste buds. You may be thinking, but we aren't gluten-free or paleo. Well, when I have used Prep Dish, my family didn't even notice that the meals were gluten-free because they are based on real food ingredients and the meals were delicious. There's also a keto plan if that's what you're looking for.

When you join Prep Dish, along with the weekly menu, you'll get a printable grocery list and instructions for prep day. Just two hours of preparation yields scrumptious, good for you dishes all week long. You shop once, prep once.

Melanie Avalon: And one more thing before we jump in. Are you looking for the perfect gifts this holiday season for yourself and others? Well, the average male uses six skincare products per day, the average female uses 12. And as it turns out, conventional skincare and makeup is full of toxins. We're talking things like endocrine disrupters, obesogens. Meaning, they literally cause your body to store and gain weight, and even carcinogens linked to cancer. So while you may be fasting clean, you may be putting compounds directly into your body during the fast, they can be affecting both your health and weight loss. Thankfully, there's an easy solution.

There's a company called Beautycounter and they make an array of skincare makeup products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about all of the ingredients that you put on. Their products are even tested multiple times for heavy metals. And for the holiday season, Beauty Counter has so many amazing gift sets. These are bundled products at a discount, and they make incredible gifts. Think about it. You can get the products for yourself or for your friends and family and help clean up their skincare, all in disguise of gift-giving. Works pretty well. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you're trying to figure out exactly which products to get, check out my beauty counter quiz, that's at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. And for the latest discounts and giveaways from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 192 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am doing great, sitting here with my mug of hot water.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.

Gin Stephens: Drinking it. My EM-TEA.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, right. EM--

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: The best kind of tea.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, what's the EM?

Gin Stephens: Well, you know the word empty. There's nothing there. It's empty. It's just hot water. Somebody in one of my Facebook groups invented that word for hot water in a mug. I can't remember the name of the person who did it, but I love it.

Melanie Avalon: What is the M stand for? Oh, I thought it was like Em-T.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's like tea. Okay, it's like tea, but it's not tea. It's just hot water. It's EM-TEA.

Melanie Avalon: It'd be perfect if like WT met empty, because then it would be water tea. Are you following? If I'm saying if the EM stood for something related to water.

Gin Stephens: Well, we spell it E-M, capital T-E-A. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: What's her name? Emily, who founded?

Gin Stephens: No, but it's like empty, it's a play on words. Okay.

Melanie Avalon: I know it's a play on words. I'm trying to make both sides of it work.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's just a play on words. It's EM-TEA, empty.

Melanie Avalon: I can talk about words for hours.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, I'm enjoying my EM-TEA. It's delicious.

Melanie Avalon: How was your Thanksgiving?

Gin Stephens: It was nice. We had a small family gathering. We all stayed safe. Yep. It was delicious. Here's what's so surprising. I'm using my Shapa scale and I fully expected-- I've noticed that the Shapa age goes up as your weight fluctuates upward, in whatever, but I was expecting the day after Thanksgiving that my age would have fluctuated upward and it didn't. Then, yesterday, the day after the day after thank-- Wait, no, yesterday was the day after Thanksgiving. I still ate two meals of Thanksgiving foods. We had all these leftovers. So, this morning, I was like, “Surely, my weight will fluctuate up.” No, I'm still 23 on my Shapa app, isn’t that crazy? Are you getting a Shapa age, have you seen it?

Melanie Avalon: I am. I'm not very happy with it. It says that I am my age. How does it determine the age?

Gin Stephens: I don't know. Some kind of formula of some sort. It might have something to do with my-- I'm just guessing. Remember how we filled out a survey? Or we answered a survey when we got the app? Like when did you feel your best? Or what weight were you when you felt good, stuff sSomething like that? I have a feeling it has something to do with that. Or, what age did you feel your best? I'm not really sure. I know we answered a bunch of questions at the beginning. I bet it used some of that information.

Melanie Avalon: I Facebooked you, I was so excited. I finally got my color. I'm suspicious because I as well-- So, teal is losing weight, right?

Gin Stephens: A little bit. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I was convinced that after Thanksgiving, I still did one meal a day, but I ate a lot of the Thanksgiving food. I was like, “It's going to tell me I'm gaining weight,” or something. But it still says I'm losing weight. I'm like, “Is this right?”

Gin Stephens: Well, remember, it lags behind your overall trend. Even if your weight fluctuated up three pounds the day after Thanksgiving, it's still going to show teal, if your overall average for the past 10 days, it only goes by that. It looks at the last 10 days, and what that average is compared to the previous average of the 10 days before that, something like that. It's like turning a battleship. Your Shapa color is not going to change a lot quickly. I'm not surprised my color has been blue because I had that gray after going to the beach a couple times, my overall trend started to go up. Then I just kept doing what I normally do. It's blue now because of the gray before. That's me fluctuating within-- so I'm not like losing beyond my-- if that makes sense. My blue now is because it was gray before, but the thing that surprised me is that my Shapa age didn't fluctuate upward.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it says my Shapa age is exactly my age. Oh, and for listeners, I know they probably aren't familiar-- Basically, this is a scale that instead of showing your weight, shows you a color.

Gin Stephens: I actually put a page on my website, finally. I figured out how to make pages with things on the lucky-- like you always have been doing. I finally made ginstephens.com/shapa.

Melanie Avalon: A redirect. Good job.

Gin Stephens: It's not a redirect. Weebly doesn't redirect. They don't let you redirect, but I figured out how to make a page, and then I can put information on it. It's not a redirect. If go to ginstephens.com/shapa, it has everything about Shapa, plus a link to Shapa. See, before I couldn't figure out how to do it without making a million pages, but they're all there, but they're not showing up in the navigation. I finally figured that out.

Melanie Avalon: Good job.

Gin Stephens: I know. I'm not like a web designer, but every time I figure out something new, I'm like, “Woo, I feel so good.”

Melanie Avalon: I know, it's really exciting, especially when something pretty useful.

Gin Stephens: Because I do my website myself.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. It'd be nice to outsource but it's also really nice to have complete creative control and like, I don't know, being able to do everything.

Gin Stephens: Well, when I did Intermittent Fasting Stores, the website for that I outsourced that. I had it professionally done, and they used a different platform. I use Weebly, but they put it on a different platform, and I can't figure out how to do anything there. It's completely not set up the way I would do it and so I've never loved it. I can't figure out how to change it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I will say though, I really want to interview the founder of Shapa, so I'm going to--

Gin Stephens: Awesome. He's brilliant.

Melanie Avalon: Whenever I talk to him. I didn't realize, he's a New York Times bestseller.

Gin Stephens: I did know that. Yeah. He has like TED Talks that have been huge. He's a top mind. He's a professor at Duke University, I believe.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, perfect. I love when they're universities because they can very easily find their contact information.

Gin Stephens: Oh, good.

Melanie Avalon: Because I always have a professor email. That's how I contacted David Sinclair, Benjamin Bikman. I feel when they're professors, they actually read their professor email. So, it's very-- Oh, that's exciting.

Gin Stephens: Being married to a professor, I could vouch for that.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Valter Longo, yep. This is great.

Gin Stephens: That's one I will definitely want to listen to, because I just love him because I love Shapa. Shapa is a great product, and he's a brilliant man. So, definitely get him on there, but I have one other follow-up. I talked last time that I'm going to be eating according to my PREDICT 3 study results, and I was going to do it after Thanksgiving.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-Hmm.

Gin Stephens: Well, they want you to commit to doing it for 28 days. So, I was starting to plan it., and I'm like, “Okay, I'm going to be ready to start.” And I'm like, “Wait a minute.” I'm going to the beach for few days with a friend. And then I also have Cal and his wife are coming to stay. What am I going to eat? And then we have Christmas. So I was like, “Nope, I'm waiting. I'm going to wait till right after Christmas.”

Melanie Avalon: Do they care when you do it?

Gin Stephens: No. They don't care what I do it. I'm going to start it after Christmas because I was just like, “I just can't.” I have a hard time with any not just eating whatever I want. I really feel I have to try it. I have to try it. I can't go through all this and then not try to do what they say to do.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'll be really interested to see how it goes.

Gin Stephens: I wonder what my Shapa will do. I will have some data there. Maybe I'll be like 12 years old. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Guess who I interviewed yesterday?

Gin Stephens: Was it Jason Fung?

Melanie Avalon: Nope.

Gin Stephens: Oh. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Although I am almost done with his book, Cancer Code.

Gin Stephens: But that one's coming up. Jason Fung is coming up.

Melanie Avalon: It is.

Gin Stephens: Well, then you're just going to have to tell me.

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Alan Goldhamer from True North Health Center, the extended fasting.

Gin Stephens: Oh, okay. Yeah. You told me you were going to talk to him.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. For listeners, he was in the Netflix documentary on well, and he spent a lot of podcast and he runs the-- Is it the only extended water fasting stay in center in the US? At one point, it was the only one.

Gin Stephens: It's the only one that I ever hear people talk about. I would be surprised if it is the only one because there's lots of things all over the place. It's just the only one that people always talk about.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's pretty well known for that, and very interesting conversation. We get so many questions on this show about extended fasting, but we don't really talk about it that much. We stick to intermittent fasting. So, it was really nice to really pick his brain on that topic. I think the most surprising thing for me, was that he basically recommends-- so he's a huge fan of daily intermittent fasting, but not longer than 16 hours.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He thinks like a daily up to 16-hour fast, and then if you're doing longer fasts, then it's an extended fast, like, you're doing the five days or more.

Gin Stephens: He thinks either 16 or 5 days, that's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 5:40.

Gin Stephens: Either fast for 16 or 5 days.

Melanie Avalon: 16 hours, or 5 to 40 days. I think the reasoning was the protective mechanisms, and everything that happens with extended fasting is really kicking in later. He did talk about a little bit about fasting-mimicking diet. I don't know, it was really interesting, but he did say he really wanted to focus more on extended fasting. We didn't go too deep into intermittent fasting, but it was really motivational. Man, I want to do an extended water fast now.

Gin Stephens: I do not. I do not want to do. I can just say it. I mean, there might be some health situations that would cause me to rethink that. So, I'm not going to say I would never do one, but in the state of health that I am right now, I have no desires to.

Melanie Avalon: If when I move back to California, though, I definitely want to check it out because it's in California, so that could be fun.

Gin Stephens: I know you've talked before on the podcast about struggling with gaining weight, so I wonder-- technically, you're more to the lower end of the healthy weight for your body. Is that right? I wonder what would he say about doing an extended fast at that situation? If you're at the lower end of your weight range?

Melanie Avalon: I actually don't know if I'm underweight still, I might be. I should have asked him that. He did say the most benefits come with people who are healthy and normal weight and they want to just go to revitalize their body.

Gin Stephens: I love that he said that.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, obviously, a lot of people coming in are coming in to address obesity, like health issues, diabetes, gut health, many things. He did say a lot of people come are just normal people. I should have asked him about being underweight.

Gin Stephens: I do believe that's a contraindication for longer fasts.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm sure it is. For listeners, well, it's coming out probably way after this airs, but follow the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast because it's really a good episode to check out. When it airs, I'll mention it again on the show. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: One more announcement before we do our questions. We are nearing Episode 200, and if listeners would like to submit questions, we are going to have an Ask Me Anything episode. So, you can ask us anything. By anything we mean, it doesn't have to be fasting related. It can be just whatever you like.

Gin Stephens: Awesome. I'm a little scared now. No. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm not saying we will answer but--

Gin Stephens: You could ask. Exactly. All right, so we've got something from Shelley. The subject is Feedback for Food Sense. She says, “Hello. I have listened to all the intermittent fasting podcasts, read yours and Gin's books, starting to get into the biohacking podcasts now. I saw your offer for this app this morning and downloaded it right away. I have so many questions.” By the way, she's talking about Melanie's Food Sense app that was developed by Cal Stephens, I'm so proud of him.

Melanie Avalon: For Thanksgiving, I actually-- to my email list friends, get on my email list, melanieavalon.com/emaillist. I offered to give it away as my Thanksgiving gift to everybody. I basically spent all Thanksgiving for the exception of when I wasn't at get-togethers gifting it to people because I did not anticipate how many people would take me up on that offer. But it hit number five in the iTunes Store for all food and drinks. I want it to be number one, but I'm watching it.

Gin Stephens: Very cool. All right. She said, “I saw your offer for the app this morning and downloaded it right away. I have so many questions. I have always known I had food sensitivities. I thought it was gluten/wheat, and dairy. I did give those foods up and felt great. Then, not so consistent. I feel all foods bother me. I'm always constipated and bloated. On one of your podcasts, I heard about the Everlywell blood test. Ordered it and took it. Came back as eggs, egg whites, almonds, and cashews is my sensitivities in the 70s. Gluten wasn't much of an issue on the scale. Besides eliminating those items and reducing gluten, I haven't done a good elimination diet, but looking at Melanie's Food Sense Guide app, I'm trying to figure out the best way to use this app and find the foods that truly bother me.

For instance, thiols are high and eggs. Is that what I'm sensitive to? I looked at the other foods that are high on that, and I eat a lot of those foods, like coffee. I never even heard of thiols. Should I stop my coveted black coffee? If I could find a good clean tea to have in my window, I guess I could change. I guess my question is, what's the best way to use this app and make lists? Am I on the right track, start to eliminate or keep a list of foods with thiols or glutamates and how I feel when eating them. I'm excited to maybe figure out how to feel better.

As a little more background, I started IF two years ago this week. I lost 28 pounds, gained six back. I want to say some of it is muscle, since January I've been doing a cardio-strength class two times a week with cardio the other two to three days. I just don't feel as good as I did when I first started IF, and not losing a pound anymore. Just seeing the scale up. I'm a healthy eater, but getting super frustrated. But this app could be a life-changer. Any feedback or advice you have, I would love to hear. Thanks for all the information and support you provide. Love listening to you and Gin every week. Like you guys said last week, we can hear each of you every day of the week, but Tuesday.”

Melanie Avalon: I love it.

Gin Stephens: I do too. Thank you, Shelley, so much for your question. That actually made me think of one more thing that Dr. Goldhamer said yesterday. He said hands down the people who go on the extended fast. They lose a lot of weight obviously while fasting, a lot of its fat and when they regain it, they pretty much preferentially regain muscle if they're following. He advocates a sugar oil salt-free plant-based diet, and he's very passionate about that. But he did say that the weight gain that they see afterwards is typically muscle, which is pretty exciting. Going back to Shelley's question, for listeners, I made the Food Sense Guide app, with Gin son Cal, who is ridiculously talented and basically created exactly the app I was envisioning. I'm really grateful for that.

What it is, it is a comprehensive catalog of over 300 foods for 11 potentially problematic compounds that people can struggle with foods or that they might be reacting to. It's amines, FODMAPs, glutamates, gluten, histamines, lectins, oxalate, salicylates, sulfites, thiols, and nightshades. I made it because a lot of people follow low or high versions of all these different diets, and it can be really frustrating and overwhelming to know what you're reacting to. Like, gluten tends to be a pretty easy one, but things like oxalates, lectins, FODMAPs, it's really hard to keep all that information in one place. I pretty certain there is not any resource out there besides my app that has every food for all the compounds all in one place.

It can be overwhelming, though, because it's not going to tell you this is your problem. You have to be the detective and experiment with foods and look for trends yourself. It is my concern, and I've talked about this on some interviews where I've talked about it before, but I do get worried that people will do exactly what Shelley's doing. They'll think they're reacting to eggs, so they'll look at eggs and say, “Oh, eggs is high in thiols, it must be thiols, and that's not my intention. It really does require looking at your overall diet, looking for trends. It's a tool in your toolbox. What I would suggest is doing experiments, so if you suspect maybe, maybe it is thiols-- Oh, and by the way, in that there is compound info. If you want to learn about the compounds, you could go to thiols and you can read all about them. If you suspect, “Oh, maybe it's thiols,” then, I would suggest trying a low thiol diet for a little bit. Like she said, you can make list, so you can put different foods and you could do experiments and make notes and see how you feel.

I do think out of all the compounds, just from my perspective, what I think people do see radical changes with, if this is the issue bothering them is a lot of people have histamine overload, and doing a low histamine diet can be radical for a lot of people. My interview with Dr. Becky Campbell on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast all about histamine, so I'll put a link in the show notes to that. Also the FODMAP, I personally follow the FODMAP diet just in general. So, that's really helpful for me.

It's not the best answer for you, Shelley, but I would just recommend working with your foods, seeing how you react to things. I do have a comment about the Everlywell. I recently interviewed Dr. Anthony Beck. I haven't aired that episode yet. I really respect him. He knows a lot about testing things. He actually advocates a very specific because I asked him for testing food sensitivities, like what test should you be using? He advocates a very specific food sensitivity tests, which I will have to find out, which one it was specifically, but apparently most food sensitivity test. Just test your immediate IGM reaction. Is your immune system reacting to that food?

There's another test you can do that actually test the secondary effect of that IGM reaction. So, it tells you, “Okay, I'm having an IGM reaction, but is that actually a problem?” Because apparently we can have IGM reactions, and it's not a problem. What matters is how it's affecting things downstream. I really want to get that test done for myself.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that is interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it has something to do with like the-- I don't know, lymph system, but I'm not sure about that. So, I’ll have to figure out what that test was and put a link to in the show notes because I really want to get that done. Yeah, as far as Shelley says she's excited to, how to feel better. I do believe very, very deeply that finding the foods that work for you is so, so huge for feeling well, also playing around weight loss. You could be eating calories that would typically lead to weight loss, but if those foods are inflammatory for you, it can be a huge hurdle. You can be storing water weight, when your body is an inflamed state, it is less likely to burn fat. Inflammatory cytokines create more fat storage throughout your body from the inflammation response. So, I do think that really looking at your foods and finding what's worked for you can be huge, and that's why I create this app. If anybody would like to get it, it is at melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide. It is only on iOS iPhones right now because Cal, he's an apple developer, but I do have plans to release on Android in the future. Yeah, Shelley, if you find something that works for you, definitely let us know. Do you have thoughts, Gin?

Gin Stephens: To echo what you just said about when things are inflammatory for you that you'll feel so much better when you eliminate them. You know what I have recently eliminated that I'm still sad about alcohol.

Melanie Avalon: Alcohol.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but, man, I feel so much better after realizing it wasn't working for my body. Like I said, “I'm not going to say I'll never drink alcohol again.” That's not realistic for me. Although, I mean, who knows? Maybe one day, it'll be 20 years from now, I'll be like, “Oh, I never did drink it again.” Who knows? But I'm not there yet. However, it's been, gosh, I guess-- I can't even think of the last time-- maybe it's been over a month since I've had alcohol. I lost like a puffiness that was around my eyes. Looking back at pictures from a year ago because really I switched to Dry Farm Wines, and I was drinking every day because it's clean wine. I was pretty much having wine every day. Anyway, it made a huge difference when I identified that was not working well for me. If it's thiols or salicylates or whatever it is, taking that out.

Melanie Avalon: I was just looking it up. Red wine because the app does have all alcohol pretty much. Red wine is high in amines, histamine, salicylates, and sulfites.

Gin Stephens: What about white wine? I do feel it's the alcohol versus the wine itself.

Melanie Avalon: Beer is high on almost everything. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: It didn't matter to me what I drank I still always felt bad The next day. Less bad with Dry Farm. I mean, that is 100% true. It has less alcohol than other wines, but less bad is still not fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: This is true.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of the sponsors for today's show. And that's Audible. Audible is the leading provider of spoken-word entertainment and audiobooks. Ranging from bestsellers to celebrity memoirs, news, business, and self-development. Every month, members get one credit to pick any title two audible originals from a monthly selection, access to Daily News digests and guided meditation programs. Beyond Audible’s normal entertainment and audiobook options, I want to tell you about something special they're offering right now. And that's stories.audible.com.

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Melanie Avalon: All right, so now we have a question from Becky. The subject is Fasting Window Time. Becky says, “Hello Gin and Melanie. I've been listening to your podcast for about a year now and I've been fasting for about a year and a half. I only started clean fasting in May after listening to you both talk about the importance. I've combined it with very strict clean keto. I track everything and follow my macros to a tee. I've been following this way of life for almost 200 days straight with no cheats. Yay. I have lost over 60 pounds and I absolutely feel fabulous. A little backstory.

I'm a highly emotional binge eater. I will literally eat everything around, regardless of how full and sick to my stomach I feel. I'm a sugar addict. And I find that keto is the best for me because I have absolutely no control when I eat sugar. Fasting is another tool that really helps me because once I start to eat, I tend to want to snack and eat all day. I'm working hard to break these habits, and I've seen a lot of success. I can easily fast 18 to 22 hours every day. I like eating one big meal, and I like eating all of my macros at once. Here is my problem. When I close my window at about 5:30 PM, I struggled to fast when lunchtime hits. I'm a mom of four and I have to make lunches for them. They become very irritable and all I can think about is eating. If I eat a big lunch and skipped dinner instead, I can easily fast the 18 to 22 hours, no problem. I get that maybe my body does better with an earlier eating window, but I would really prefer to eat dinner with my kids and my husband. Is there any tips you can give me to get through the lunchtime torture? I already tried tapping through my urges.” For, listeners, that's tapping, like, what does it stand for? Emotional Freedom Technique? Go to melanieavalon.com/tapping, if you want to learn more about it.

She says, “I remind myself that these thoughts will pass, then my hunger is not an emergency, but I usually end up giving in because my body trying to tell me it runs better on an earlier eating window. I'm hoping you ladies have some great ideas for making my fasting window work better for me and my family. Thank you both so much for taking the time, to not only answer my question, but also for all the work you do for the podcast. I really can't tell you how much you both have influenced my life. Thanks again, Becky.”

Gin Stephens: Well, thank you so much, Becky. This is a tricky one because go back to what you said that you become irritable at lunchtime and all you can think about is eating. It's just one of those things you have to like, weigh out. You make a list, pros and cons, because we can't tell you which of these to do. I can't say I think you should just eat lunch or I think you should just push through and eat dinner. I can't tell you either of those answers. I know that it would be nice if I could, maybe Melanie is going to have a great answer about which to do. I thought and thought about this. For me, when I find myself early in the day, when I was struggling to make intermittent fasting a lifestyle, I would too become irritable because I was trapped in the can't mindset. I can't eat right now. I shifted my mindset thinking instead was like, “No, I'm choosing not to eat right now.” It's not that I can't eat, I could, but I'm going to wait until later because, for me, I feel better when I eat later. I got tired when I ate earlier.

For you, it sounds almost you feel better when you eat earlier. It's hard to tell completely, but if your body is doing better with that earlier eating window, if you're irritable, because it's the thought that you can't eat, and if you're-- you can't shift that mindset to, “Okay, I'm just going too fast, and I'm going to eat with my family,” then maybe you should eat earlier. I want you to make some lists, like pros and cons, like why would I want to eat in the middle of the day? Why would I choose to eat lunch as my big meal? What are the cons to that? Vice versa. Why would I want to eat dinner? And what are the cons with that? I find that when I start writing things down, the answer becomes obvious to me, for myself. I'm struggling with what to do, what to do, but writing it all out, makes it clear. That's what I would suggest that you do.

I don't want you to feel you're giving in or that you're fighting against urges. You’ve got to somehow shift the thinking away from, “I'm fighting this as a battle.” Shift that mindset, like, “You know what, I've realized that it is very important to me to eat with my family and it is not torture that I'm not eating lunch. I feel great when I don't eat lunch, I'm going to be fine.” Is it an emotional feeling that you need to eat? You're really hungry and that's when your body needs to eat? So, make your decisions based on what you write down? The answers to those questions. What you really feel like your body is telling you, and not just your emotions. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I really like that idea about the list a lot. I really like what you said about, because it is hard to tell from what she said if wanting to eat is emotional or physical. Is it irritable, just because you want to be eating it or-- I mean, she says all she can think about is eating, which makes it sound like it is more physical, like she actually feels-- Well. It's confusing because it sounds like that, but then she also says that it's pretty effortless or easy to fast long and she feels fabulous. If it is a mental thing and not so much an actual hunger thing, I would actually really recommend checking out Dr. Glenn Livingston's work, that might be something that works for you. He has the Never Binge Again approach. It's not just for benching, it's for anything where you're trying to deal with that voice in your head that is upset about what it wants to be doing. He calls it the pig that wants to be eating.

Gin Stephens: I call it my inner toddler who wants it now. My inner toddler wants it now. It's like, “But I want it now. I want to eat this leftover Thanksgiving meal now. Yeah, I don't want to wait.”

Melanie Avalon: I like that toddler. If it is that where it's literally just the toddler or the pig, and it's not anything about actual needing the food, then that could be an approach that might really work for you. I've done two episodes with him. The first episode I think, is melanieavalon.com/neverbingeagain. And then I did a Q&A episode with him. I actually released that last week, that was really popular too. So that's melanieavalon.com/bingetriggers. That's that approach you could try, but it does sound like what Gin said and what she's saying that the earlier window does work better for her. So, if it turns out that physically health-wise peace with food, that everything is better with the earlier window-- I'm wondering, so can she like-- if she does lunch and closes it, is it unpleasant to sit at dinner without eating?

Gin Stephens: Well, she said if she skips dinner, she can easily fast, no problem. So, really, it might be a matter of feeling like she should eat dinner with her kids and her husband. That whole like, “Well, I really should be eating with them because that's “the right thing to do,” I need to eat with my family. Instead, you could just be with your family, being with people. I've gone to family events where-- I could think of a big family party that I went to a few years ago when my niece-- I think she turned 21, and it was lunchtime. I went and it was like, I don't know, an outdoor event place. I looked at the food and it was not something I really wanted to eat. I would have opened my window if it had been something-- I think it was barbecue, and I'm real picky about barbecue, and it looked fine, but I didn't want to eat the barbecue. I was like, “I'm just going to visit with everybody instead.” It wasn't weird, and it was okay. I didn't force myself to eat food at a time I didn't want to eat it. Food, I didn't want to eat at a time I didn't want to eat it, really. Maybe make that mindset shift. They want to be with you at dinner time, but you can have a mug of some clean fast approved beverage that you like, and you could sit there with them and be with your family.

Melanie Avalon: I understand because it can be hard if you feel like, if it's awkward or you feel the odd one out, or that you're not partaking, goodness knows I think it took probably 10 years for my family to finally accept my craziness when it comes to-- whether or not I'm eating at certain get-togethers. I wish there was a really easy answer for this.

Gin Stephens: I will always eat at a gathering if it's window worthy. I'll have a longer window, too. I don't mind having two meals in a day if the food is really window worthy, and I want to eat it. I have no problem with that. I am cheesy, I'm not going to open it just because everybody's eating or it's expected we're all going to eat right now.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if she can't do dinner with her family, not eat, drink water or whatever. And if everybody is completely accepting and normal, or if that's like that works for everybody, that would be my suggestion. I just don't know if it feels strange. I don't know how old our kids are either.

Gin Stephens: I think modeling a healthy relationship with food is the most important thing. When you do eat, let them see you eat and model that you're not stressed about it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, definitely. Definitely that.

Gin Stephens: Because all those diets that I did over the years, I'm sure that modeled a lot more craziness than intermittent fasting when people see me eat the foods that I love with gusto.

Melanie Avalon: This made me think of one other thing. Can I share it?

Gin Stephens: No, I'm sorry, you are not allowed to share anything else. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I feel bad going on tangents, but it's good advice. One of the other things because Dr. Goldhamer who I interviewed yesterday, he also wrote a book called The Pleasure Trap. There's a chapter in it, because he obviously talks a lot about fasting in the book, or following really intense diets. There's a section on dealing with social pressures. I know, this isn't quite relate because this is not social pressure from her family, but just for those who are struggling with social pressures. He points out that the route of pressure that we get from people to break our diet or not follow our diet, or whatever we're doing really has two main routes. It's either a lack of knowledge on their part, like not understanding the reasons for the diet or the fasting, or it's embarrassment from the other person because people often become really self-conscious about their own choices. It becomes a mirror to other people about their own choices. The thing I really liked that nice tool takeaway was for the first option, where people just don't have a knowledge surrounding it. They call it the Seems Approach.

They said, rather than saying, like, really confidently, and you should be confident, but rather than being super, like, “Oh, I'm doing this because this is the way it needs to be and this is healthy and this is going to change my life,” and blah, blah, blah. Just make everything less committal and make it about it seems. It seems to me that this might help me or It seems that I'm feeling better, or it seems, that can come off as a lot less abrasive to people and a lot less scary. I liked that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, frame it around like how it works for you.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, how it seems to be working. Yeah, Becky, let us know what you settle on. Could you do both? Could you do the lunch some days and then some days you have family dinner?

Gin Stephens: Yep. Also, if you're fasting 18 hours, that gives you six hours for an eating window. You could really just have a smaller lunch and a smaller dinner.

Melanie Avalon: I thought about that, but she says she likes eating one big meal and eating everything at once.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's none of them seem to be perfect. She likes to eat lunch, and she likes to eat dinner, and she likes to eat one meal. Something's going to have to give. There's no way to do all those things.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, maybe you could do a 80% lunch and then like, nibbling at dinner?

Gin Stephens: That's a great suggestion.

Melanie Avalon: Make your dinner the dessert and you just nibble on.

Gin Stephens: Something small. Yeah, really good idea. Substantial lunch, little bit with the family.

Melanie Avalon: That's what they say. I don't like saying it because it crystallizes a approach that I don't think is necessarily needs to be crystallized, but the breakfast like a king lunch, like a-- What is it? Breakfast like a king, lunch like a something, dinner like a--

Gin Stephens: Pauper? I don't know what the middle is.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe could do a lunch like a king, dinner like a pauper approach.

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Gin Stephens: All right, now we have a question from Amanda. The subject is Maca or Maca Root, Katie's Question Episode 187. Hi, Gin and Melanie, love the podcasts. You two are a huge part of my life as I spend hours a week with you.” Yay, that was just me. “I wanted to respond to Katie's question, second try has been brutal from this week's podcast number 187. Katie said she started adding maca root to her protein shakes. I was having similar problems getting IF to work as well as it had been. I believe underlying stress is the root cause. Unfortunately, I do not have answers. However, I do know what was not an answer for me. maca root. I experimented with maca root to help balance hormones hoping for relief. This is when things got worse. I felt heavier and got heavier. Research led me to find articles and YouTube videos of people who want to gain weight using maca to achieve this. I had no idea weight gain could be a side effect. I was taking maca powder. Perhaps side effects vary based on dose type, whether taken topically or orally. Sometimes what works for one person,can have the opposite effect on another. Hormones are so complicated. Have you heard of this side effect? Are there other solutions like this, which may be detrimental to some? Thanks for all you do, Amanda.” Again, if I said it wrong, it's maca or maca, or whichever.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I love this question from Amanda not so much to like, go on a whole tangent about-- I say maca about maca, but more because I think she highlighted something that really, really is huge for a lot of people. I'm thinking it's something to think about more, and that's exactly what she said is that a lot of these supplements, a lot of these foods, a lot of these things, especially things that have hormonal effects. It's often easy to think, “Oh, it does this one thing for everybody, and that's what it's going to do, and that's why I should take it.” When really it can be it-- I mean, so many things can have different effects on so many people. She found a good example apparently of maca where some people are taking it for their stress and the help their workouts and maybe lose weight from that, but then some people are taking it to gain weight.

I don't actually have a lot of thoughts on maca. I don't take it myself. I think it's really important for listeners to be aware that if they are taking something that's typically something like a supplement that's not a straight-up food, definitely do your research and definitely see how it's making you feel. If it's not providing the effects that you're looking for, definitely be open to not taking it anymore.

Gin Stephens: This is one Dr. Cabeca really likes, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Dr. Cabeca really likes maca. I don't want to scare people away from maca, because a lot of people do do well with it. I know one of the tribes well known for using it, I think they call it-- I think Dr. Cabeca talks about this, but you have some really fancy name for it. It means like wonder or something-- They use it for vitality and energy, and it's like, the bee's knees if that phrase is still used today.

Gin Stephens: Well, as you know, we're all so different with our bodies and the foods and the supplements that work for us. I think I told this story on the podcast, maybe two years ago. I don't know it was a long time ago, but a friend of mine was taking the supplement that she said, I started taking, blah, blah, blah, whatever it was, and it was so fabulous. It made me feel so much better. I'm like, “Oh, I'm going to take that too.” So, I'll start taking it. Just because she said she was taking it.

Melanie Avalon: I remember that. What was it?

Gin Stephens: I can't remember what it was, but she had some kind of one of those genetic things that it's for, if you've got this, whatever.

Melanie Avalon: I remember that. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I started to feel so terrible. I started to feel anxious. Then I was like, “Could it be the supplement?” I looked it up. Yeah, it was the supplement. She was taking it for this genetic, whatever that she's got that I don't have. It made me feel terrible. It was the wrong thing for me. So, that taught me a very huge lesson. At that point, I was like, “Never take something just because someone you know said it is great for them.” Figure out why they're taking it, what's the purpose? Do you have that same need for it? Isn't going to do the same thing for you and trust how you feel?

Melanie Avalon: 100%. Shall we go to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so the next question, it comes from Katie. The subject is Sleep Paleo and a Plateau. Oh, my. Katie says hello, “Gin and Melanie, thank you so much for your podcast. I have both of your books, although it took me a while to get What Went Wine, as I am a recovering alcoholic, and I didn't think it would apply to me. However, I recently switched to paleo and it clicked. I needed Melanie's book. I'll try to keep it short, but also want to give you the full picture, so you can answer my question armed with all of the facts.

I began IF in June 2020, following my mom's lead. She started in May. I have over a decade long history of chronic restrictive dieting. When I began IF, I allowed myself #allthethings I had restricted for years. I'm a 35-year-old mother of two boys, six and nine.” She says, “Gin help.”

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Oh, yeah. They're just starting to smelly years.

Melanie Avalon: Oh my. “I am 4’11”, and my starting weight was 151 pounds. The first 20 pounds came off easily. All the while eating everything I wanted to and my window. I started 16:8, and I am now at about 24 I. have hit the dreaded plateau. The scale has not moved in months. I decided to clean up my diet, but I refuse to count calories because of my obsessive dieting history. I tried keto. My mom has lost 50 pounds doing IF and keto, not for me. Two weeks ago, I decided to attend paleo, bought Melanie's book and was ready to dive in. I have not been perfect and the scale has moved slightly, but I am hovering just above 130 pounds, which I've been at for four months and I want desperately to be in the 120s. My ultimate goal is around 110 pounds.

My question is, is there any further tweaking I can do to reach my goal? I know, I know. Alternate day fasting. Sigh. I take medication every day, which needs to be taken with food and honestly ADF scares me. I don't think I can stop it just 500 calories because once it starts eating, I don't want to stop. I’ve red light device, wearable weights, BiOptimizers products and BluBlox. My credit card is not thank you, lol. I take progesterone as I experience horrible menstrual symptoms, nausea, lower abdominal pain and migraines many days of the month. I have interstitial cystitis and ASPD, advanced sleep phase disorder. So, my sleep schedule is wack. I go to bed early 6:00 PM and rise early 2:00 or 3:00 AM, and wake several times during the night to go to the restroom. I'm overheated. Or if my kids took over my bed.” Does she get up and stay up after 3:00 AM? She goes to bed at 6:00? Wow, that is so interesting.

She says, “Is this just a classic case of my body has reached its new setpoint, and the best I can hope for is body composition through fasting and weight training? Oh yeah, I forgot to mention I work out four to five days a week, alternating between cardio days and lifting days. I think I've been listening to you gals long enough to know what you might say, but I wanted to pick your brain anyways. Maybe there's something else I'm not thinking of. Could it be stress? My sleep schedule? I've adjusted my eating window to around noon to 4:00, since I go to bed so early. Do I just need to get this paleo way of life more time and trust the process? Plus, I wanted to tell you how amazing and beautiful I think you both are.” So nice. She says, “And thank you so much for all of your hard work and dedication. I was a member of both of your Facebook groups until I decided to deactivate my account due to a lot of negativity surrounding current events. It was messing with my vibe. Thank you so much, Katie.”

Gin Stephens: All right. Well, thank you, Katie. You're really still very new to intermittent fasting since you started in June. I think the fact that you have a history of chronic restrictive dieting is very important. If you've been doing chronic restrictive dieting for years prior to starting intermittent fasting, it's going to take your body longer to trust you. The first 20 pounds came off easily, and now you are feeling stuck. So, you did just switch up what you're eating two weeks ago and then you said towards the end there, do you need to get this way of life more time and trust the process the paleo way of life? I will say yes to that. You've only been changing what you're eating for two weeks. You definitely need to give that some more time. I would I'd be patient with that.

I hear you on not wanting to do alternate daily fasting because the idea of it sounds scary. You said you don't think you can stop at just 500 calories. Here's something that's interesting. A lot of people say that, and then they try it, and then they realize, “Oh, if I choose strategically for my down day meal, it really can be a filling amount of food.” It's just a matter of choosing food that's really going to fill you up and make you feel satisfied from it. If I have 500 calories snack packs of something, I'd be ravenous. Of course, you're not going to do that because you're eating paleo, but you get my point. 500 calories can be nothing that substantial, or it can be a really, really filling and satisfying meal. So, if your normal window has been between noon and 4:00, I bet if you ate something paleo, a large 500 calorie paleo substantial something at 4:00, then you would be satisfied and you would want to stop because you'd be full. Then the next day would be an up day and see that's where the key is going to be. I think you might need some metabolic boosting. Which is why I think ADF would be so good for you, because of that, that chronic restrictive dieting that you've done for so long.It's going to take time for your body to really start to trust you again.

That's what I would recommend. Don't be afraid of that 500 calorie meal, and the key is just to find something that's going to satisfy you, and make you feel you've had a big meal because you really can eat a large volume of food for a 500 calorie down day meal. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: The biggest thing I saw, reading this was reevaluating the seeming plateau because she says the weight hasn't moved in months. Then, she says she started paleo and not even 100% paleo, and the scale moved in two weeks. That sounds to me you're at a plateau, you started doing paleo, not even complete paleo, and the scale started moving again. To me, I echo what Gin said. This was the main thing I was going to say was 100% give the paleo approach longer because it sounds like it actually is doing something, doesn't sound to me, like it's--

Gin Stephens: Maybe she needs a Shapa scale because really, I can't express highly enough how important it is to have a way of knowing what your overall trend is doing. Are you weighing daily and then calculating your weekly average, you can do that yourself. Or you could go buy a Shapa of color, or you can use the Happy Scale app that does that for you as well, if you need to see the number. But all of those things can really help you see your overall trend, because I know my weight fluctuated a lot. And it wasn't until I started using the trend method of weekly averaging that I finally was able to feel confident that I was making progress, of course, this was way back in 2014, but it saved my sanity. It was the only time I didn't quit, when I started focusing on the trend, was the only time in my life that I didn't quit something..

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I am really liking the Shapa scale.

Gin Stephens: The calibration period is the annoying part, I get it. In order to really have the good statistical, you've got to go through that.

Melanie Avalon: I like how it gives you like a message about how you're doing.

Gin Stephens: You feel like it likes you.

Melanie Avalon: I know. You feel like it's on your side. Normally the scale feels like, ugh, but it's like this scale is on my side. One other thing about the paleo though, it's hard to know what that looks like. Are you pretty much doing-- I'm assuming listeners are very familiar with paleo, but if you're not, it's basically eliminating, and the way I talk about it in my book What When Wine, which I really recommend listeners get if they are at all interested in trying the paleo whole foods approach. It's basically eliminating grains, processed foods. I have it by yes, no, and maybe. Usually eliminating most legumes, dairy, things like that, but there are layers, and you can find what works for you. I would recommend for Katie, if you can commit 100% to the paleo and sticking it out. That can be huge. With being not doing it completely, I don't know what that other stuff that you're having in is. It's really hard to speak to that. When all else fails, going the whole foods route, I think, not the store--

Gin Stephens: I'd be out of luck if I had to go to the store, since we don't have one.

Melanie Avalon: Although I do go to Whole Foods every day. Oh, that's right. I get so sad every time you see that. The foods that are whole route. Actually, something else Dr. Goldhamer said yesterday, which I've been thinking a lot. It's haunting me, and I'm like, “I don't know, maybe this is true.” He actually thinks it is impossible to be obese if you eat completely whole foods plant-based diet, which I thought was really interesting.

Gin Stephens: Whole foods, plant-based?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Only whole plants.

Gin Stephens: That's interesting. Now, I don't know. I'm trying to think about that. It's really hard to do, though for me, like nothing, but plants.

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. I don't advocate it. I talked to him about this on the show. I do think there is massive role and benefit for a lot of people animal protein.

Gin Stephens: I just get so hungry, like so hungry.

Melanie Avalon: I will say though, because, basically, I try to not be on Facebook all the time, especially since I do a lot in my own group. The groups that I flirt between are polar opposites. They're basically like the low carb keto carnivore groups and then they're like the fruitarian 80/10/10 groups just because I'm so fascinated that people thrive on these shockingly different approaches. I will see a lot of people in the fruitarian, 80/10/10, like whole foods plant-based will say that the lowest weights they are is when they're doing that and they're basically-- it's like they can't enough to--

Gin Stephens: The fruitarian.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-Hmm. Especially fruitarian people say they like they can't eat enough to actually maintain the weight. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying do fruitarian, but I'm saying there's definitely something to eating completely whole foods.

Gin Stephens: The skinniest I ever was, I was not eating whole foods. I've talked about this before, but when I was eating really, really low fat, I looked really terrible. I was eating junk. Sigh. No, that's not recommended. Now we know better.

Melanie Avalon: She said keto didn't work for her. Just want to count calories. Yeah, especially if you don't want to count calories, the whole foods paleo approach. So, encourage you to stick it out, get a Shapa scale, and then tweak things from there. I will say I have a hack for keto that people don't talk about. I don't really ever see people talking about it.

Gin Stephens: All right, I've got a guess as to what it might be, but I'm not going to say my guess. But go ahead and say it. Let me see if it's what? I'll tell you if that was what my guess was.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. If you find that keto does work for you, but you're not losing the weight. If you make the entirety as much as you can, the entirety of the fats, the MCT C8 oil, just give that a try. Basically, like instead of fatty meats, and butter, and nuts, and all that, lean meats, green vegetables, and have the fat be MCT oil C8 only, I think it can actually make a lot of people lose a lot of weight. It's all the effects of keto, but the C8 MCT is the least likely-- I mean, it's very unlikely you're going to store it as fat, it doesn't really get stored as fat. It just massively boosts your metabolism, keeps you in ketosis, and the weight often can drop off. A lot people will think they're doing this with coconut oil only, but coconut oil actually has a lot of saturated fat in it. It's not just the medium chain triglycerides. You could do just like normal MCT oil, which is usually C8, C10. But if you do just C8, and I'll put a link in the show notes. They make this. This isn't hard to get it, it's on Amazon. That's my hack. Was that what you're thinking?

Gin Stephens: I knew it was going to be something about tweaking your fat, because I think that's something that-- For me, I know, I tried keto and my macros were perfect. It didn't work for me. I think a lot of it, if I’d eaten, it like you said, with the different fat. I had a lot of dairy fat.

Melanie Avalon: I think I went through a phase where I was doing what I just said. I wasn't counting calories.

Gin Stephens: Is that when you were like dipping your chicken in the--

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, the MCT oil. I love the way it taste. Well, basically, it actually creates like an umami effect. It really just accentuates the flavor of whatever you are eating.

Gin Stephens: After that bad experience I had with MCT oil, I'll never buy it again.

Melanie Avalon: Which one did you take? Well, I guess it was--

Gin Stephens: I don't remember, but it was-- Oh, no, I'm not getting it.

Melanie Avalon: If you do get it, listeners, I have done my vetting. Get the one that I list. It's in glass only. Yeah, get that one. I probably in the period where I was doing that really intensely-- I mean, I was probably eating 4000 or 5000 calories a day, and I am losing weight.

Gin Stephens: I've told you my story before with my MCT oil shots.

Melanie Avalon: Oh yeah.

Gin Stephens: It was my anniversary of 2015. Yes, it was my anniversary.

Melanie Avalon: Your marriage anniversary or your fasting anniversary?

Gin Stephens: My marriage anniversary, is my anniversary with my husband. I had read this book, I was still in those wacky groups that were all doing crazy diet things and someone had read the Shangri-La Diet. We were all talking about the Shangri-La Diet and how--

Melanie Avalon: I remember that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you remember that diet? You were supposed to chug olive oil, but not tasted. That was the whole theory of that one. I was like, “Well, I'm going to chug MCT oil instead,” and it was supposed to reset your appetite and make you not hungry or something about the way your body, anyway. I can't remember it. It has a very interesting premise. That was just a theory. I was like, “I'm going to chug this MCT oil.” I took a shot, and then we were going to go out to dinner with my-- I was going with my husband. So, you're supposed to take the oil away from food. I chugged the MCT oil, and, oh my gosh. [laughs] Can you just say digestive upset? It went straight through me. Well, at home before I went to the restaurant-- it wasn't anything embarrassing in public. I didn't have an accident, but I felt like I might, was about to, and it was so painful. My stomach hurt so bad. We went to this great Italian restaurant. I was like, “I've got bathroom, I’ll be back.” [laughs] I'm a little-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, listeners, definitely proceed with caution because that's very common response. I was actually talking with James Clement, who wrote the book, The Switch, who I've had on the show, and we were talking about it and about the response that people have because you can also get-- we were trying to figure out the mechanism of action behind it because he was trying it and it made him nauseous. We were trying to think like, why is that? Is it liver processing it? Its effect on bacteria populations? Endotoxin? I don't know. So, go slow.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's like my body rejected it and wanted it out. Let me just put it that way.

Melanie Avalon: Do proceed with caution if you try this crazy hack.

Gin Stephens: However, if you're having trouble with constipation, it might be a solution.

Melanie Avalon: It is good for that.

Gin Stephens: Anyhow. I can laugh about it now. It was painful. My stomach hurt so badly. It was not something I'll ever forget. Good times. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Good times. [laughs] All right. Wow, this is an absolutely wonderful. Few things for listeners before we go. You can submit your own questions to the podcast, just go to questions@ifpodcast.com. Or, you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. Gin, I'm doing Instagram all the time now. Are you?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. People are commenting. They're like, “Listening to you talk about Instagram makes this so much more funny.” Like, looking at the pictures.

Gin Stephens: Here's another picture of my cat. Here's another picture of my Christmas tree. [laughs] Okay, I'll do it right now. I'm going to take a picture of this little Christmas tree while I'm recording the podcast--

Melanie Avalon: And say, “This is the Instagram that Melanie's forcing me to post.”

Gin Stephens: I'm doing it right now. All right.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to like it.

Gin Stephens: Okay, I hope you like it. Everybody can go back to Instagram and see what Gin posted on November 28. They’d be like, “Oh, that was when she was recording the podcast.” It's so hard to post things on.

Melanie Avalon: Did I tell you? I took a picture with your book, but I haven't posted it yet. Oh, at Target. Friends, do that. Go to Target and get Fast. Feast. Repeat. and take a picture and tag Target. Right?

Gin Stephens: Yes, please do that. Target loves to see and they call people guests. Target loves to see their guests sharing things. So, please do so.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Follow us on Instagram. I'm MelanieAvalon, Gin is GinStephens. I think that is everything. Oh, I didn't even say this whole episode, the show notes are at ifpodcast.com/episode192. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go.

Gin Stephens: Nope. Not a thing.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Dec 13

Episode 191: Weight Regain, Relaxing Protocols, Slowing Metabolism, Fat Burning, Fat Metabolism, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #70 - Kara Collier (Nutrisense)

Welcome to Episode 191 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: Go To ButcherBox.Com/IFPODCAST For Free Bacon For Life!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #68 - Glenn Livingston, Ph.D.

FEALS: Go To https://feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

Listener Feedback: Sarah - Update from the girl who lost weight during quarantine

Get My Shapa Scale And Use The Promo Code IFStories To Save $20

JOOVV: For A Limited Time To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A Robyn - Where does the fat go when we lose weight?

Kiss my Keto C8 MCT Oil

Join Melanie's Facebook Group If You're Interested In The Lumen Breath Analyzer, Which Tells Your Body If You're Burning Carbs Or Fat! You Can Learn More In Melanie's Episode With The Founder (The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #43 - Daniel Tal) And Get $50 Off A Lumen Device At MelanieAvalon.com/Lumen With The Code melanieavalon50

The Cancer Code: A Revolutionary New Understanding of a Medical Mystery (Dr. Jason Fung)

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 191 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free heritage breed, sugar-free, nitrate-free bacon for life. Yes, free, for life. We are huge fans around here of ButcherBox. They make it easy to get high quality humanely raised meat that you can trust, shipped straight to your door I hardcore research their practices you guys know I do my research. And what they're doing is incredible. Their beef is 100% grass-fed and grass-finished, their chicken is free-range and organic, their pork is heritage breed, and super importantly, they are all about caring for the lives of both their animals and the livelihoods of their farmers. Treating our planet with respect and enjoying better meals together. By cutting out the middleman at the grocery store and working directly with farmers to ship directly to the consumer, they're making it actually affordable to get this amazing high-quality meat which is help supporting the future of our planet.

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And for all you bacon lovers out there, ButcherBox provides the type of bacon you want. Their bacon is heritage breed, free of sugar and free of nitrates. How are is that to find? And they have an incredible offer for our audience. You can get that bacon free for life. When you sign up as a new member at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, you will get a package of free bacon in every box for the life of your subscription. Yes, that's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, and I'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in. Are you looking for the perfect gifts this holiday season for yourself and others? Well, the average male uses six skincare products per day, the average female uses 12. And as it turns out, conventional skincare and makeup is full of toxins. We're talking things like endocrine disrupters, obesogens, meaning they literally cause your body to store and gain weight, and even carcinogens linked to cancer. So, while you may be fasting clean, you may be putting compounds directly into your body during the fast that can be affecting both your health and weight loss. Thankfully, there's an easy solution.

There's a company called Beautycounter and they make an array of skincare makeup products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about all of the ingredients that you put on. Their products are even tested multiple times for heavy metals. And for the holiday season, Beautycounter has so many amazing gift sets. These are bundled products at a discount, and they make incredible gifts. Think about it. You can get the products for yourself or for your friends and family and help clean up their skincare, all in disguise of gift-giving. Works pretty well. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you're trying to figure out exactly which products to get, check out my Beautycounter quiz, that's at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. And for the latest discounts and giveaways from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 191 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm cold.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: And how does that feel?

Gin Stephens: It feels cold. Yeah. Got my mug of warm water, holding it in my hands. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I get so happy every time I walk outside.

Gin Stephens: I know. I was standing in the sun trying to find some warmth.

Melanie Avalon: I got sort of schooled by the maintenance man yesterday because my air conditioner was out of freon, so it was freezing over every night, despite it being cold. He was lecturing me-- He was saying that air conditioners are built to maintain normal air conditioning temperatures.

Gin Stephens: Do you have your set to be too cold?

Melanie Avalon: Apparently. I set it at 60 a night.

Gin Stephens: That's pretty cold.

Melanie Avalon: But I was confused. I was like, “If it's cold outside, shouldn't it be easier for the air conditioner?” He was like, “It doesn't matter.” He was like, “I'll fix the freon, but you can't be doing this.”

Gin Stephens: Now see, I did hear when we had in our other house, we got a big lecture on the air conditioner can only cool your house a certain number of degrees below what it is outside. I'm like, “I don't think that's true because I go places and it's really cold there.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, and the thing is, during the winter, it would be colder outside than 60.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. You should be able to be 60 in the cold temperatures.

Melanie Avalon: It was a distressing conversation because I'm a very rules-oriented society person. So, when I'm being told I'm doing something wrong, I get really upset. Not really upset, but I want to do what's right, but I want it to be cold, so I don't know what to do about this situation.

Gin Stephens: I don't know. Based on the conversation I had where I was told it was impossible to get it that temperature-- and I don't argue with people to their face but I remember thinking, then how come when I go to stores and it's so freezing cold? It's way colder. I mean, that's not even true. That just sounds like an excuse.

Melanie Avalon: That is not correct.

Gin Stephens: That is not true. Anyway, I just had a really interesting conversation this week with the people from the PREDICT study.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, do tell.

Gin Stephens: It was so fantastic. It was just me talking to them on a call. You know that I did the PREDICT 3 with the ZOE app where I wear the continuous blood glucose monitor. Then, I got my results back. Here's a little funny part of that. They sent me an email. I just did the study as a person. I signed up using my regular email, I used my name, I didn't hide who I was, but I didn't say, “Hi, I'm Gin Stephens. I've written a book.” I didn't say, I didn't contact them.

Melanie Avalon: I'm guessing, they figured this out.

Gin Stephens: They did. They sent me an email, they're like, “Your results are ready. We would also like to have a conversation with you and go over your results with our head nutritionist and our head researcher.” I'm like, “That's pretty good customer service.” [laughs] We're on the call. I asked the people that did it at the same time I did, a couple of the moderators. I was like, “Did they offer to sit down with you?” They're like, “No.” I'm like, “Well, that's interesting.” When we got on the call, I was like “Okay, I'm just going to ask. Do y'all do this with everybody?” They're like, “No. We know who you are.” I'm like, “Okay.”

Melanie Avalon: That is so funny.

Gin Stephens: It was amazing, though, talking to them. They work with Tim Spector, and he's a gut expert. He's also the guy, Melanie, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, you may be, the COVID app that's in the UK? The COVID symptoms app, that's gotten a lot of press? That's his app.

Melanie Avalon: What does it do?

Gin Stephens: I don't know. It's a COVID symptoms indicator app where-- he's collecting data. It's a COVID research. But that's him. They were talking about that as well. That's what he's known for right this minute. He's the-- the British Gut Project. He studied twins. He's really interested in the interplay of how important is our genetic profile to our factors of life. Now, he's also exploring the interplay with gut microbiome through these PREDICT studies, but it's fascinating to talk to them. And so, drumroll please, I am going to follow the recommendations they're giving me based on my CGM data and my gut analysis.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to do it for one month. They want you to do it for four weeks, and I was like, “You know how I am. I don't like to be told what to eat. I just want to eat the foods that I want to eat, the foods that are delicious.” Apparently, you know how I said my blood glucose was fabulous because it didn't go up and down like crazy-crazy? Apparently, my blood glucose control’s not great, and neither is my blood fat clearance. Well, I'm not surprised about the blood fat clearance at all. They're basing it on two different tests with the muffins. The first muffin I think was a really high sugar muffin. I had to wait a few hours, then eat the second set of muffins that are really high fat, muffin. Then, I had to do blood samples a certain amount of time after each muffin. So, they wanted to see how quickly my blood cleared the fat or whatever. Apparently, I did not clear fat quickly.

Melanie Avalon: I have a question.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Blood samples. When you did the test, did you do a finger prick to yourself?

Gin Stephens: Yes, it was a finger prick, and you have to squeeze out so much blood, it was a lot harder.

Melanie Avalon: I could not have done that, Gin.

Gin Stephens: It was harder than I thought it would be.

Melanie Avalon: You have to squeeze out onto a piece of paper, or into like a--

Gin Stephens: Onto this little collection strip thing that you have to make it go--

Melanie Avalon: I'd be fainting in my apartment.

Gin Stephens: You know how on a pregnancy test, it goes up that way-- You've probably never done a pregnancy test, but if you do a pregnancy test, it goes up a little wick and then you see it go to the window and it goes along the strip. Well, this was a blood test, where you had to keep dropping the blood until it went a certain amount of the strip.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, like a blood glucose monitor?

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean, this was a lot. It was not just like doing-- no, it was not like that.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, that concept, but a lot of blood.

Gin Stephens: That concept, but so much blood. I was like, “What is happening?” It took a lot of blood, but anyway, my blood did not clear the fat well, and also, apparently the blood glucose-- but I also never eat really sweet sugary things in isolation.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Oh, my goodness, can we talk about this a little bit? I have thoughts.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I have so many thoughts I want to talk about. The first thing is you're saying that just now, you don't normally eat sugar in isolation, but you're eating-- I'm just wondering if this is what they're thinking because lot of people who follow low carb diets and aren't eating carbs at all, that's when they have issues with clearing glucose, but if you eat carbs as a part of your normal diet, then I don't know how much that applies to that. I don't know if you're saying that.

Gin Stephens: I know that the results of them looking at my CGM, they said I did not-- Anyway, I'm trying to do the wording that it says, my clearing of the sugar was not what they expected. It was low. Poor blood sugar control after the challenge.

Melanie Avalon: So, did it stay too high for too long?

Gin Stephens: I don’t know. I don't know what their parameters were.

Melanie Avalon: I interviewed Nutrisense this week, CGM. Listeners, I know we've been talking about CGMs a lot, but they're just so amazing. That said, now I have on my third CGM, and yours was Freestyle Libre as well, right?

Gin Stephens: It was. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I have on my third CGM right now. I've done three rounds, two weeks each time. This is something I'm wondering, did they for the study, have you test and make sure the CGM was accurate?

Gin Stephens: By doing what?

Melanie Avalon: With a blood glucometer?

Gin Stephens: Oh, no.

Melanie Avalon: See, this is what I'm really, really wondering about. I'm wondering if they take this into consideration. Did they talk at all about checking for accuracy of CGMs?

Gin Stephens: They did not talk about that, no.

Melanie Avalon: Because what I've realized with this experimentation is, the first CGM-- and these are all Freestyle Libres, but using different apps, so Levels versus Nutrisense, but Levels versus Nutrisense doesn't affect the accuracy of the Freestyle Libre. The first one I wore, it was off consistently, and this is what I learned when I interviewed the Nutrisense founder. She said, “They can be off, but the precision is almost 100%.” What that means is that if it's off by 10 or 15 points, it doesn't change the accuracy of the patterns and how it's changing. So, that will be 100% accurate, but if the baseline is off, it might mean that every time you test, it's off by a certain amount.

Gin Stephens: I don't feel like that was a problem because it was in a very expected range. All of my numbers were in a very expected range that were not surprising. I didn't get highs like you would expect someone who's type 2 diabetic to get. I didn't get the giant highs. But after I had their challenge muffin, whatever my blood glucose did after that wasn't fabulous. That's what they're basing that on, plus all the data over the time. I feel really good about the range being from where it went up to and where it went down to. It didn't have unexpected lows or unexpected highs. So, it feels like a good solid range.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, just what I'm wondering is, do you know how many participants they have in the study?

Gin Stephens: Lots and lots, and they've been doing different rounds of it. PREDICT 1, PREDICT 2, PREDICT 3. This is really cutting edge. What they're doing is, I would really say, is the gold standard in nutrition research, is the cutting edge of that.

Melanie Avalon: I would die to talk to them. I wonder if they are more looking at the precision and the changes and taking into account the potential for the inaccuracies and the calibration that would be needed because what I've experienced with the first CGM I wore, it was off by 10 to 15 points, which is okay. I think that's actually within the expected what they say, it can be off by. Second one was spot on, like spot on, it matched my meter exactly. The one I'm wearing right now is off by 20 to 30 consistently, like every time. When I look at the number, and like I said, I'm using both Levels and Nutrisense, this one right now is Levels, and Levels doesn't let you calibrate it. With Nutrisense, you can go in and say, “Hey, it's actually off by 20, and it'll affect it, it'll change what you see.” Levels doesn't do that. So, right now, every time I see that number, I'm like, “Okay, well, I know it's 20 lower than that.” I wonder, I'm really curious, and the reason I'm talking about this is because I really want listeners to get CGMs because you can learn so much about yourself. But I really, really encourage you if you do get one and you suspect that it might be off to test it-- but then once, even if it is off, like I said by a certain amount, it won't change the accuracy of the changes. It's just the baseline is wrong.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't think mine was off. It never went up crazy high, number-wise, or down crazy low. It was within a range that seemed logical to me. Also, it was fascinating talking to them about the gut analysis because I had my gut analyzed in 2017. She talked about the differences and how far they've come since 2017 and their sequencing of the gut microbiome. They know way more now than they knew in 2017, like exponentially more. I have a list of foods, they have an app, and I'm supposed to put things in and try to get a certain number, and it's based on all the factors that they collected about me, all the data. The way that I mix foods together, they don't want me to have too much fat, which so doesn't surprise me, that does not surprise me one bit.

It was also fascinating talking to their lead researcher about-- We talked about intermittent fasting and the latest studies that are out, and she was great. We talked about the early time-restricted feeding and some studies we'd like to see. I would love to work with them in the future, and they seemed interested in collaborating with the intermittent fasting community because they're very interested in time-restricted eating, and how that affects people.

Melanie Avalon: It's really exciting.

Gin Stephens: It was really exciting. It was such a great call to have and to talk to someone of that caliber. I know you talked to the people who do research all the time, because with your Biohacking Podcast, but it was great to talk to-- because they're pure scientific researchers, that's what they do. They're in the academic community and being able to have a conversation about research methodologies. It was fascinating.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I love it. It's so fun.

Gin Stephens: I did not sound like a moron having that conversation. I was able to have it. That's why it felt great.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's nice when you're engaging in a dialogue and you understand everything they're saying, you can understand what they're saying.

Gin Stephens: Right. They're listening respectfully to your ideas as well. That was really nice.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, you have to keep us updated on the--

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm going to, and I'm going to have to do it. So, you can probably hear in my voice. Yeah, I like to eat what I like to eat. To hear that, gosh, maybe that isn't working as well for me as I thought. I just want to see what happens. I don't need to lose weight. I'm not doing it to try to lose weight. I just want to see, “Am I going to notice a difference in how I feel?”

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. And then, a resource for listeners, I'll put a link in the show notes, too. I doubt either of those interviews will have aired about the CGMs. But you can get a Nutrisense CGM at-- I have a discount now at melanieavalon.com/nutrisensecgm, and the code is MelanieAvalon for 15% off.

Gin Stephens: So, is that the one you like the best?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I'm surprised if I was going to say that. Well, Levels is on a waitlist anyway, so when I have a code for them, it will get you to the front of the waitlist, but Nutrisense is available now. And they're both using Freestyle Libre, so there's no difference there. And I really think that Calibration feature is really, really important. I like both of them. But, yeah, I do like Nutrisense a lot.

Gin Stephens: That sounds great. I'm really interested in as well. I would like to see if eating the foods that they recommend, if that makes a difference now that I have this--

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to have to put another CGM on so you can watch as you.

Gin Stephens: I know, but it's all in the name of science.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: But guess what is a food that's great for me?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, let me guess.

Gin Stephens: Beans! Oh, I said it already. Beans. Beans are great for me. Well, I would have been so upset if they weren't. They said potatoes are not great for me. So, I'm still a little salty about that.

Melanie Avalon: Do they want you on a higher-carb, lower-fat diet?

Gin Stephens: Well, it's not really either. It's certain carbs and certain fats and less fat, but not low fat. But not too much fat. It's not technically low fat or low carb. Like quinoa is a yes for me, but potatoes are no.

Melanie Avalon: Very interesting. It's also like the gut microbiome and everything.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Do you think it's because of the resistant starch in potatoes?

Gin Stephens: Well, that would not make it a no, that would make it more of a yes.

Melanie Avalon: Not necessarily, because if it's a--

Gin Stephens: Oh, you're talking about what's in my gut?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Not liking the resist-- I don't know. I don't know what it's all based on. This is the third round of the PREDICT study. They keep refining it as they find new things. They're not afraid to completely change the recommendation. They're like, “Alright, based on our new data,” because they did that during the PREDICT 2. I know a bunch of people that were going through it. They changed, they're like, “Alright, we got new data. So, here's the new list.” Everybody’s like, “What!?” It's the opposite of what I used to say. It was based on the new analysis. As they learn more, they change the recommendations to reflect what they're learning.

Melanie Avalon: As it should be.

Gin Stephens: Absolutely. That actually makes me have more confidence in them.

Melanie Avalon: Well, you'll have to keep us updated.

Gin Stephens: Well, we'll see. I'm starting it, like right after Thanksgiving, which is probably the craziest time in the world to be changing what you're eating, but I'm like, “Well, okay, I'm just going to do it. I'm going to do it.”

Melanie Avalon: Do it.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to do it.

Melanie Avalon: Can I do one more plug before we get to our questions?

Gin Stephens: Please do.

Melanie Avalon: The episode that airs today, when this comes out, it will be a while ago, I'm airing the Q&A with Glenn Livingston, the Never Binge Again. Friends, it's such a helpful episode because we did all about overeating triggers, emotional eating, like eating socially, the holidays. It's so helpful. He's so wonderful. It's a really powerful episode.

Gin Stephens: Well, I know that's something that listeners will really connect to, because a lot of people struggle with that. And then, they beat themselves up, and then they really shouldn't.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and his mindset, and his theory, and everything is just very freeing. In my opinion, and I've said before, I think it aligns really well with intermittent fasting because it's like fasting, you're fasting or you're eating. There's not all this debate and dialogue in your head about it. It's sort of like that with food.

Gin Stephens: Well, please share that in the Advanced group. And just in case, I'm not the person who approves the post, say, “Gin asked me to share this,” because the moderators might be like, “No. [laughs] Bad, Melanie, bad.” No, the moderators are amazing, and they're just looking out for-- we don't allow people to share random things, but you're not a random person, and this is not a random thing. So, please share it in the groups because I think it could be helpful, especially this time of year when people have so much emotion around what they're eating and when they're eating it. We're going to overeat, it's the holidays.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. There's so many valuable things that he says about all of that, with the emotions. Really quickly, I think we were going to start asking now, because this is Episode 191. Listeners for Episode 200, Gin and I are going to do another Ask Me Anything episode, so feel free to start submitting questions for that. You can ask us anything. To clarify, I mean, you can make it about intermittent fasting, but that's not the point. The point is it can be anything.

Gin Stephens: Anything.

Melanie Avalon: Anything. I'm not guaranteeing though to answer it.

Gin Stephens: But you can ask, and we might.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Because we did that on Episode 100. For anybody who's like-- if you have been listening since then, you heard it. Episode 100, Ask Us Anything. So, ask us anything, again.

Melanie Avalon: Episode 200. Crazy!

Gin Stephens: I feel people might know everything about me. Oh, did you know my bathroom is finished?

Melanie Avalon: I do now.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Now, everybody knows the bathroom is done.

Melanie Avalon: Everybody knows everything about you and your house.

Gin Stephens: Well yeah. You don't know that we're buying a house for Will to live in. We're buying this house.

Melanie Avalon: Now, we do.

Gin Stephens: Now, we do. We wouldn't looked at it on Wednesday. The guy who lives there is a hoarder.

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Gin Stephens: He's been living there for a long time. He's a renter.

Melanie Avalon: What does he hoard?

Gin Stephens: From what I could tell, maybe garbage, but I'm not making light of that because it made me really sad. I wanted to clean it up and help him. Hopefully, he's going to have to move because Will is going to move in. But hopefully, having to move will help him, I don't know, it's really, really sad to me. But there's more of it. So, we're going to be having to redo this. It's a little tiny cottage. You know how they say buy the worst house on the best street? That's what we're doing. We've been looking for months and haven't been able to find that thing. It's a tiny little one bedroom, one bath cottage that was built in the 60s and it has not been updated. It needs everything. We're going to rent it to our son as long as he wants to rent it from us, then we're going to rent it to other people, but we have a lot of work ahead of us.

Melanie Avalon: It's a big project.

Gin Stephens: We don't even know what it looks like. I'm just telling you. You couldn't see it.

Melanie Avalon: Because of the hoarding?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you really couldn't see it. Chad’s like, “What's the floor?” I'm like, “I don't know.” It doesn't matter. We're just going to buy it. We're going to--

Melanie Avalon: So, you did go in, though?

Gin Stephens: We did go in, but it makes me really sad for anyone who's suffering with whatever leads to hoarding.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I know, it's not an easy fix. My grandmother on my dad's side, that side of the family tends to have lots of piles of things. And, of course, we didn't even know we would go over there for holidays and run around the piles of things. We still had room to gather, but it wasn't like this house.

Melanie Avalon: Well, you have to keep us updated on that too.

Gin Stephens: Hopefully, the move will be a positive for him, and he'll clear some things out of his life. So anyway, yep. So, I'll have some more to share on that, but that should be a fun project for 2021.

Melanie Avalon: So many things.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah.

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All right, shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, we have a question from Sara. It's actually Sara update from the girl who lost weight during quarantine. She says, “Hi Gin and Melanie. I wrote to you a few months ago that after two years of a plateau at around 150 pounds, I finally got down to my lowest weight of 142 pounds during quarantine. I wanted to give you an update and ask a question. The good news is, I went on to lose a few more pounds and get to 139 for a total of 10 pounds lost during the first few months of quarantine and the lowest weight I'd seen since high school. The bad news is that now all my clothes are too small, and I weighed in this morning at, drumroll please, 159. I haven't weighed 159 since September of 2017, a couple months after I started fasting, and haven't even weighed above 155 since October of that same year. I am baffled. During my two-year plateau, I often hovered around 145 and never got above 152, even after going on cruises, having weeks of poor eating, etc. What happened? Here are the things I'm considering.”

I'm just going to jump in. This is me saying this, Melanie, but I have something in Fast. Feast. Repeat. for anyone who finds they're at a plateau or having trouble with regain. Ask yourself, honestly, what do you think it is that's going on? And you can probably tell, and I am going to tell you Sara has done that because she's got a list of things. I think Sara knows, but I'm going to read Sara's list of things. I really think people know, don't you?

Melanie Avalon: Quite often.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. If you really are honest with yourself, write down what you think it is, you're probably right. So, here's what Sara wrote down or sent to us. “Number one, once restaurants started opening again, I started ordering takeout and eating out more, outside only. When during those first few months of quarantine, I had been cooking only at home. However, during non-quarantine times, I do eat out a lot. Number two, I've been eating more frozen pizzas, frozen french fries, and processed food the last few months. I know, Melanie, PUFAs. Number three, I'm fasting less consistently than I was during those first two months of quarantine, but still fasting. Not counting, but probably range from 18 to 22 hours, with the very occasional longer eating windows, as well as the occasional longer fast.

Just for your reference, I started out fasting in 2017 at 179 pounds. I'm 31 years old and 5’2”. I don't count macros or calories or anything. I have been a non-strict pescatarian since 2015 and mostly eat veggies, although lately I've been adding in some red meat as well. I'm a little stressed, but not much more stressed than usual, I don't think. My main thought is that maybe I wrecked my metabolism during the first couple months of quarantine. I was fasting about 20 hours every day and eating to satiety. I never felt hungry, but maybe I wasn't eating enough. I never count calories but yesterday I tried calculating some of the meals I was eating during that first two months of quarantine when I lost weight and was coming out probably 1000 calories a day. That seems like very little. It's also possible that I'm just truly eating like garbage lately, and that it's having a hugely damaging effect on my body, although gaining 20 pounds in six months seems extreme, even for what I'm eating.

I feel like I can't restrict or it backfires. So, I'm just sort of writing it out. I'd love to hear your thoughts. I got to Lumen, hoping that maybe that'll help me or at least give me the motivation to pay more attention to what I'm eating while making it feel fun, and not as restrictive. Is it possible my metabolism has been lowered? When I was losing weight in 2017 and 2018, I'd often eat truly one meal a day, like one large breakfast burrito and that was it. I never thought I could be eating too little food because I do have some days where I eat a lot and others where I eat less and just trusted that. But just for your reference, during quarantine, I generally ate some combination of a bowl of rice with steamed veggies, avocado, and an egg, sometimes with some kind of sauce or with beans, chia seeds with yogurt, and fruit, a sandwich with a bunch of veggies, avocado and cream cheese or tzatziki,” is that how you say that, tzatziki?

Melanie Avalon: I do not know.

Gin Stephens: I've seen it. It's a Greek dressing but I've never read it out loud. And she said, “I've usually eat a combo of the rice bowl and chia seeds or a sandwich and chia seeds. Sometimes I would also bake chocolate chip banana bread and eat that as well. Is that too little food? I always felt full, but on paper, it looks like not very much. Thanks for your help and support. I've been listening to your podcast since 2017 and will never stop. Love you both, Sara.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, so thank you so much Sara for your question. To recap, from her first email, she originally lost weight during quarantine and now is stopping?

Gin Stephens: She lost eight pounds during quarantine. But now, she has rebounded and gone up to 159, so she's actually gained-- her plateau weight was 150, so she's nine pounds above her plateau weight after going down eight. She's gone up not quite 20 pounds. She's 17 pounds higher than her low.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I thought this was a really great question because I think this is something that happens a lot. I'm guessing Gin would agree since she has a section on it in the book. I find it really interesting, Sara, that you're doing fasting, you told us what you're eating, primarily whole foods, retroactively looking at the calories, it was less calories, and you were losing weight. During that time, you weren't hungry, you didn't feel you were starving, you're eating to satiety, it didn't feel to you like your metabolism was slowing down, but you didn't have a lot of signs of that. And then you lightened up on the fasting, and started eating a lot of processed foods.

Gin Stephens: And a lot of takeout.

Melanie Avalon: And a lot of takeout. I just find it really interesting because I think reading it on paper, it's what Gin said that if you are honest with yourself, it can be probably evident. I mean, we never know exactly what's going on, but it can be pretty evident as to what is probably going on. And so me just reading this, it really just sounds like you went from eating being in a calorie-restricted state fasting, to eating processed fattening, high-calorie foods. I think a lot of people do fasting and they clean up their diet, maybe or they're eating whole foods, and they lose weight, and that feels more motivating and they stick with it. Then some people, they lose the weight and it seems a liberty to or a green card to just eat whatever you want, and as long as you fast a certain amount of hours that that will completely mitigate any potential weight gain or damaging effects metabolically from the foods we're eating.

I just think this is so important to bring to awareness, and we've talked about this a lot on this show before, but I do think because fasting is becoming so popular, it is getting painted as this cure-all and in a way, it seems like what you're eating doesn't matter. I've been saying that from day one. I really, really think what you're eating, I think, is just as important as the fasting. I actually, honestly, if I had to choose between eating whole foods that work with your body, and never fast versus fasting, and eating processed foods like we have today, I would choose never fasting.

Gin Stephens: See, and I would choose the opposite. One study that backs that up, you know that rat study where they fed the rats a bunch of junk, but they got healthier, because they were fasting, even with the junk. I really think the fasting. I mean, I agree that both are important.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's almost a dialogue not worth having, but it is an interesting thing to think about. My reasonings behind that is-- and when I say like never fasting, I'm assuming that you would still have not like you're not eating literally 24 hours. So, you're still sleeping and not eating while you're sleeping. I mean eating what would be considered a normal eating pattern throughout the day. Just because I think there is a lot of potential damage that we can do with the signaling of the foods we eat, and fasting is a powerful signal for repair and cleanup and mitigating that damage, but if it's choosing between wielding a lot of potential damage with the food you're eating, and then “cleaning it up with fasting” compared to not having as much of that inflammatory signaling with the foods you're eating, it's hard to choose, but I would probably err towards that.

Gin Stephens: One reason that I feel so strongly that, start with the fasting, don't change what you're eating until your body tells you to, or until it feels right, is just because I've seen so many people in the groups who have their bodies naturally change with what they're craving. And so that takes care of itself down the line, if that makes sense. So, they fast and then they want to eat better, but it happens naturally. And so, they don't have to force it or try.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Exactly. That's why I’m saying, I think there's different types of people, and a lot of people, that's what ends up happening and they stay on that. And then, there's people like Sara, where you start slipping into old foods and then maybe you see fasting as being protective of that.

Gin Stephens: Right. I see what you're saying. Although they sound like comfort foods, those foods that she's listing, and I get it. Those foods are comforting, aren't they? French fries, pizzas?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think because we often want to keep in what we want to see what we want to see. So, it's easy to think, “Oh, well, I probably just messed up my metabolism with the fasting and that's what this is.” If you hadn't changed your food at all, and you were eating the same food, doing the same fasting and you experience all this weight gain, then there would definitely be something going on with that. But there's a huge change that's happened.

Gin Stephens: Right. And she's fasting less consistently. I actually have a suggestion for that. Somebody posted in the group one time that really-- I remember this. She said, “I thought I was fasting consistently, and I thought my fasting hadn't changed. So, I started using my app again, and realized I was fasting a lot less than I thought I was.” Sometimes, just writing it down, it gives you that accountability, you're like, “Oh, I thought I was less consistent, but I'm way less consistent.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 100%.

Gin Stephens: I also want to add, it sounds like the food changes, like you said, are a huge factor and the fasting less consistently, but I would really go back to what you were eating before those types of foods and see if that doesn't make things change right up for you. I’ve realized the PREDICT study really helped me to see this too, and the foods that are recommended and not recommended. One of the things they don't recommend I eat a ton of, cheese. Cheese is one of my favorite foods. I was looking, Melanie, I haven't weighed myself officially. I have my Shapa scale, but I haven't weighed myself on a scale where I see a number since 2017, but there have been periods of time where I felt like-- my pants got a little tighter, I've talked about this. My honesty pants got a little tighter, and I'm like, “What am I doing differently?” And then, I tighten things up, and then they got back to normal. At no time have I had to buy bigger clothes.

I was looking at my Facebook Memories the other day from a year ago, my face was so puffy. I think I had a little period of rebound weight gain right in that period of time because I was eating so many cheese plates. Did I talk about that on this podcast?

Melanie Avalon: Not about the cheese plates.

Gin Stephens: Well, I went to New York last October and had a couple of cheese plates at these really nice restaurants. I'm like, “I'm going to go home and make a cheese board every afternoon.” And I was just eating cheese like crazy. I think that made me a little puffy, and my honesty pants got tight. I'm like, “Oop, time to cut out the cheese boards.” And then, oop, right back to normal. Well, I went to the beach with my college friends, I talked about that. We ate a ton of cheese, and I brought a ton of cheese back home with me. And then I was eating a lot of cheese at home because I had all this leftover cheese and we really had a lot of cheese at the beach. All of a sudden, I saw gray on my Shapa. Gray is the color for your weight trend is up. I'm like, “Oop, there goes the cheese again.” Can I eat cheese? Yes. Should I have a huge cheese plate every day? No, my body is telling me no.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, if you had to construct the perfect food for weight gain, I think it would be something like cheese.

Gin Stephens: Maybe so, and it's so easy to eat a lot.

Melanie Avalon: We talked about this before, but starting off with dairy, dairy is a hormonal food, which its intention is to grow a being. Cheese is that, but it's the high-fat form of that. So, it's not even just the hormonal signal of milk, it's all of those signals with highly, highly concentrated fat and calories.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, so that's just me being honest with myself and I could have said at either time, with the Shapa go into gray, I could say, “Uh-oh, intermittent fasting has stopped working,” or, “Oops, my metabolism must be slow.” But no, I was like, “Okay, what behavior has changed?” I'm like, “Oh, there's the cheese again.” Also, I ate out a ton at the beach. We ate out things, lobster rolls, delicious, lots of things I don't normally eat at the house. Now, my Shapa is back. Got the good color again. It just helps me to see it. Actually, I wasn't sad, Melanie, about the gray. Seeing a weight number fluctuate, upset me. Seeing the color big gray did not upset me. I wondered if it would. If I ever see gray, I thought to myself, “I hope I never see gray, but if I do, will I be upset?” And I wasn't, and I was not tempted to over restrict either. If my weight had fluctuated up and I'm like, “Oh, I got to get that number down.” I was like, “Well, my trend is up, it'll go back down.” I felt confident, it was really, really refreshing.

Melanie Avalon: I still need to get mine calibrated. I was so close and then that threw me for a loop. I forgot to weigh last night, so I hope it didn't start me over.

Gin Stephens: Oh gosh. [laughs] My Shapa age is back down though. This is what I have found. I have discovered that if you look at your Shapa age, it actually does give you an indication of your weight fluctuations, because my Shapa age fluctuated all the way up to 32, and now it's fluctuated back down to 28. So, I don't have a goal weight, I have a goal Shapa age. My goal Shapa age is 28, I want to keep it there.

Melanie Avalon: Looking at mine right now. I'm going to get it there so I can start doing it too.

Gin Stephens: Well, Sara, thank you for your question. I hope our answers have helped point you towards what I think you already knew, because of the way you wrote your question. Please give us another follow-up. I know that we and the listeners would love to hear what changes you make and what happens and results from those changes.

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Gin Stephens: We have another question, and this one is from Robin. I love this one. Subject is, “Where does the fat go when we lose weight?” She says, “I know this is a very basic question, but I've heard lots of different answers on where exactly the fat/weight goes when we lose weight. So, where are the collective thousands of pounds of weight all of us intermittent fasters have lost? Also, I'd love to know if you and Gin have ever met in person? And if not, do you have plans to do so in the future? I think you're a great team and work really well together. Love your podcast. I binge listened up to Episode 30 so far, and look forward to hearing the rest. Thanks, Robin.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so this is a great question. Gin, do you know where it goes?

Gin Stephens: Well, I do. I do know where it goes. I've watched a great video about this. It's like a TED talk or something. To answer her question, no, we have still not met in person. Still no. We will. We don't need to. We know we will. I'm sure we will.

Melanie Avalon: I think we should once quarantine madness--

Gin Stephens: You can be great friends though and still not have met in person. That's what I've learned.

Melanie Avalon: This is true. This is very true. Once the quarantine madness is maybe done.

Gin Stephens: Exactly.

Melanie Avalon: Health risks or social implications or everything with all of that, be nice, nice celebration. So, as to where it goes. Fat is basically made of hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, all of these things. And it's stored as triglycerides, so a storage form of fat in our body. When we turn it into energy, which we do partly, assuming it's-- what is the word? Aerobic oxidation. So, using oxygen to turn into energy, we breathe in oxygen and we use that to generate energy ATP in the mitochondria of our cells from the fat. And then all of those excess carbons and hydrogen, they form two things. Air, or carbon dioxide. Some of the carbon dioxide we just breathe out, and then some of the rest forms-- the hydrogen and oxygen form water. We urinated out or sweat it out or--

Gin Stephens: Breathe it out.

Melanie Avalon: Well, we breathe out the carbon dioxide. The breathing out is about-- it's around 80% or so that we breathe out, and it's around 20% that we lose as water. So, you're actually breathing out your fat. And, oh, I meant to talk about the Lumen. So, this is perfect, I would have completely forgot. Sara was saying that she has a Lumen device. Lumen device, it's a breath analyzer, and it uses a science called indirect calorimetry because the ratio of carbon dioxide and oxygen in your breath can indicate the source of the fuel that you're burning because carbs versus fat produce a different ratio of carbon dioxide or oxygen as their byproducts.

So, the Lumen Device measures that its breath analyzer and it can tell you for burning carbs or fat and then it makes like dietary recommendations and things like that. If listeners are interested in that product, I've done two episodes on it in the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, I'll put a link to it. You can join my Facebook group, which is called Lumen Lovers. And you can go to melanieavalon.com/lumen, and the coupon code MelanieAvalon gets you a discount, I think it gives you $50 off. Yeah, it does. It gets you $50 off, which is awesome. So, in any case, yes, you're breathing it out, sweating it out, urinating it out, that's where it's going. The only other potential byproducts that can be had from things that we eat, because that's what happens with alcohol, that’s what happens with carbs, that’s what happens with fat, protein. It also has some byproducts of, I think, nitrogen, so we have to get rid of that through urination as well.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, so your body takes it apart at the little chemical level and just, bloop, does different things with the other pieces of it. Sends them on out.

Melanie Avalon: You get the ATP, and then out it goes.

Gin Stephens: Chemistry!

Melanie Avalon: But yes, we should plan to meet after all of this.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we definitely should. But I think I haven't been to Atlanta in ages. I don't know if I've been to Atlanta since you've been--

Melanie Avalon: I'm not a big traveler. So, if you want to come to Atlanta--

Gin Stephens: But you could come and stay in my guest room and use my new bathroom.

Melanie Avalon: Traveling is so stressful.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: Because we're really two and a half hours apart. It is not that far.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's really not that far. And it needs to happen before I go back to LA.

Gin Stephens: Well, you're not going back to LA, I forbid it.

Melanie Avalon: I am.

Gin Stephens: I forbid it.

Melanie Avalon: It is calling

Gin Stephens: Do you really think you are?

Melanie Avalon: I am. Yes. I'm really excited.

Gin Stephens: Do you really have plans? You've got them in motion? Or is it just a goal?

Melanie Avalon: No. I mean, because I've lived more of my life-- Have I lived more in my life there than anywhere else? I think so. I don't know. Now having left it twice, I know that's where I want to be. I want to go back and not leave again. I'm thinking maybe in the spring.

Gin Stephens: How long have you been back in Atlanta?

Melanie Avalon: This time around?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: A year and a half.

Gin Stephens: Because it feels like you just moved back, but I had a feeling it would probably be longer than--

Melanie Avalon: It does feel like I just moved back. It's really weird. Time is going by--

Gin Stephens: Time Is flying and going slow, all at the same time.

Melanie Avalon: Really random thought experiment question. I'm interviewing this guy named Sergey Young. He's an investor in longevity technology. His thing is artificial intelligence and avatars and space travel, but he's also all about diet and lifestyle. I think it's going to be a really great episode. What I want to ask him is, you know how time goes by faster and faster with every-- the older we get, it seems to, if we were immortal, would there reach a point where our perception of time would be so fast? Do you get what I'm saying?

Gin Stephens: That's very hypothetical to me. So, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: If time is relative, would there come a point where you're not even experiencing time? These are the things I think about.

Gin Stephens: Well, if you talk to some people, they say actually time is just an illusion anyway. And so, we're all experiencing all the time-- I don't know. Quantum physics, any of that, that's way beyond me. They're measuring particles and just the act of measuring the particles change them, they stopped acting like waves, and they started acting like particles. This was light, when they were measuring light, and they changed-- anyway. I'm like, I don't need to know, any of that.

Melanie Avalon: One more thought that's actually relevant to this and to our show. I'm reading right now Dr. Fung’s new book.

Gin Stephens: The Cancer Code, how is it?

Melanie Avalon: It's really good. I'm really appreciative because I haven't really learned much about cancer, it's not something I've--

Gin Stephens: You haven't been called to study it.

Melanie Avalon: Right. So, I'm really grateful to be reading it and actually getting schooled on it. I'm learning so much, but that's one of the things he talked about was the difference and paradigm shifts in medicine, compared to quantum physics and how-- in physics, when you realize that that the paradigm that we have to explain reality is incorrect. It just gets completely replaced all at once, and you switch over. Like what you just talked about with particle, why don't if it gets completely--

Gin Stephens: The light waves, they can be waves, they can be particles. Yeah,

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. In physics is like, “Oh, our current explanation does not work.” Even if you don't know the correct interpretation, the hypothesis of the correct interpretation is accepted as more true than the current explanation that's not working. Sorry, this does come back to diet and fitness. Compared to diet and fitness and medicine where, if the paradigm that we have to explain, disease or health conditions, doesn't quite explain it, we instead of rejecting that and positing a new theory that makes more sense, it's more likely that we try to fit the current paradigm to fit that paradigm. It's why it's so hard for there to be change in what's accepted as-- like in food, high fat, low fat, fasting.

Gin Stephens: You're stuck to that theory, you don't want to let it go.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's easier to manipulate it and explain away all the contradictions than be like, “Oh, maybe this is incorrect.”

Gin Stephens: Well, I will go back to the example I gave just flippantly, but when the people were like, “Oh, guess what? The earth is not flat. Or, “Oh, guess what? The sun does not go around the Earth.” They didn't take that pretty easily. Science wasn’t like, “Oh, you're right,” remember? Even hard science hasn't always been responsive to new information.

Melanie Avalon: That is true. I guess the slight difference is, saying the world is flat, the world looks flat.

Gin Stephens: Really, it wasn't even so much the world is flat.

Melanie Avalon: That was the big church.

Gin Stephens: It was the church, it was the going around part, the sun being in the middle of the solar system was such a revolutionary idea. That was really the big one. And people were like, “No, that is against the religion.” Yeah, that was a big shift. They did not want that to be true.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, this is true. It's a really, really incredible book, though. I'm really enjoying it.

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I'm glad.

Melanie Avalon: Literally, there was a moment where-- and I can't do it justice, you have to read the book, but there's this epiphany. He goes through the characteristics of cancer cells in great detail. And then, he goes through the difference between the single cellular organisms and multicellular organisms. There's this huge epiphany moment where all of the characteristics of cancer literally match up to the characteristics of singular cellular organisms. I haven't finished the book, but basically, I think his theory is that cancer is, it's not just random genetic mutations like--

Gin Stephens: It's like an attack of replicating single-cell organisms?

Melanie Avalon: It's evolving, basically. It's four characteristics, I think, are-- Yeah, I'd have to look it up. It has mutations, it's immortal, and there's two more, but they're basically exactly what a singular cellular organism is.

Gin Stephens: Well, now I'm really interested in reading it. I had not thought about reading it, but maybe I need to.

Melanie Avalon: Literally the moment that happened, it was like, “Da, da, da!” Yeah, I can't wait to interview him about it. It was perfect timing because I didn't know exactly-- I was going to interview him about fasting, and I was like, “There's so much. What are we going to talk about?” How was I going to focus the interview? but this is great, because this book just came out.

Gin Stephens: Love it. Well, I'm so curious what made him be interested in cancer? Because he's a nephrologist. He's a kidney doctor, and of course, now he works with a lot of people who are type 2 diabetics. Of course, he always did, being a kidney doctor, but his intensive dietary management clinic, and of course, now he's known for the fasting. So, I wonder how he made the transition to writing about cancer. Ask him that, or did he say it in the book?

Melanie Avalon: He did not. No.

Gin Stephens: Why cancer?

Melanie Avalon: I didn't realize he was a kidney, that was his special--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, he's a nephrologist.

Melanie Avalon: I have so many questions about the kidneys. This is--

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: --going to turn to a kidney episode instead. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: “I know you want to talk about cancer, but let's talk about the kidneys.”

Melanie Avalon: “Can we talk about the kidneys?”

Gin Stephens: I got no questions about the kidneys. I don't.

Melanie Avalon: I do. Sorry, for all the tangents.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm interested to read it. So, you're not all the way through, so you can't give the spoiler alert.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, so I just looked it up. The four characteristics of cancer are that it grows, that it's immortal, that it moves around, and that it uses glycolysis to form its energy. And that's the four characteristics of single cellular organisms. I got so excited because, Gin, sometimes you're reading a book and you're like, “Oh, my goodness, it's this,” and then they say that, and you're like, “[gasps]” so I was like, “Oh, it sounds like cancer--” My thought was that it sounds like cancer is devolving. That it's reverting back from a multicellular organism to a single cellular organism and then that's what he said. And I was like, “Oh, my goodness, this is so exciting.”

Gin Stephens: I love that, that you get the tingles.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Yeah, I'm excited to finish the book, like I said, about halfway through, I'll put links to it in the show notes. It's called The Cancer Code. I hope he does The Kidney Code.

Gin Stephens: I don't know, that doesn't sound like a big seller.

Melanie Avalon: I would buy it.

[laughter]

Gin Stephens: No, you would. The Kidney Code sold one copy in Atlanta. [laughs] No, I'm sure whatever Fung writes, people will buy. Yeah, I'm not running out to buy The Kidney Code.

Melanie Avalon: People would buy The Liver Code, I bet.

Gin Stephens: Probably.

Melanie Avalon: I would buy The Kidney Code.

Gin Stephens: And you would buy The Liver Code.

Melanie Avalon: I would. I’ll buy all of this stuff. I love reading it. In any case, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode191. The show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. I also have links to everything we discuss. Brief reminder for Episode 200, submit Ask Us Anything questions and put in the headline, what is it? AMA, ask me anything? Put something in the headline, like Episode 200 or Ask Me Anything or something so we know that's what it's for. You can submit your own questions by directly emailing questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. Gin, oh my goodness. Guess what? Have you done stories on Instagram?

Gin Stephens: No, I don't know. What they are? Or how to do them?

Melanie Avalon: Me, neither. They are so complicated. I don't know how to do them, but my sister and I actually had a night out, and she taught me how to do stories. They're so complicated, but I'm learning.

Gin Stephens: You'll have to teach me.

Melanie Avalon: They're confusing, but they're so--

Gin Stephens: They're fun?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I sound such a technologically behind the times person right now. So, you know how you have your pictures?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: And you know how when you're in the app, random things pop up, and is like, “This person doing this,” and flashes, and you have to exit it?

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: Those are stories. So, they only last for 24 hours, but you can do lots of stuff to them. And then you can see everybody who even looked at them, which is cool.

Gin Stephens: That's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: People can comment and they're really fun. I did one.

Gin Stephens: You did a story.

Melanie Avalon: I did a story. I said, “It was my first story,” that's what this was.

Gin Stephens: Okay. I don't--

Melanie Avalon: Follow us on Instagram.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I'm trying to post a little more on there, but I'm still not very interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's just a lot, but follow us, because we're trying.

Gin Stephens: We're trying.

Melanie Avalon: I'm @MelanieAvalon, Gin is @GinStephens, and I think that's everything.

Gin Stephens: Yep.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice, we're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Dec 06

Episode 190: Heart Health, Plant Based Diets, Bad Cholesterol Vs High Cholesterol, High Carb Low Fat (HCLF), Extreme Weight Loss Resistance, Alkaline Water, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #51 - Joe Cohen (Self-Hacked)

Welcome to Episode 190 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: Go To Butcherbox.Com/IFPODCAST For Free Bacon For Life!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order!

Restore (Smart Light + Sleep Sounds) Clock

My Shapa Scale and use the promo code IFStories to save $20

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #70 - Kara Collier (Nutrisense)

AUDIBLE: Go To Audible.com/IFPODCAST Or Text IFPODCAST To 500500 For A 30 Day Free Trial, Including A Free Audiobook!

Listener Q&A: Kathy - Lowering high cholesterol with IF

Time-restricted feeding is a preventative and therapeutic intervention against diverse nutritional challenges

Intermittent Fasting in Cardiovascular Disorders—An Overview

Effects of 8-hour time restricted feeding on body weight and metabolic disease risk factors in obese adults: A pilot study

Intermittent Fasting: Is the Wait Worth the Weight?

Listener Q&A: Bernadette - No weight loss

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #44- Cyrus Khambatta, PHD and Robby Barbaro, MPH

Listener Q&A: Jalyn - What is the deal with purified alkaline water?

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 190 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting? Then this show is for you.

I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free heritage breed, sugar-free, nitrate-free bacon for life. Yes, free, for life. We are huge fans around here of ButcherBox. They make it easy to get high quality humanely raised meat that you can trust, shipped straight to your door I hardcore research their practices you guys know I do my research. And what they're doing is incredible. Their beef is 100% grass-fed and grass-finished, their chicken is free-range and organic, their pork is heritage breed, and super importantly, they are all about caring for the lives of both their animals and the livelihoods of their farmers. Treating our planet with respect and enjoying better meals together. By cutting out the middleman at the grocery store and working directly with farmers to ship directly to the consumer. They're making it actually affordable to get this amazing high-quality meat which is help supporting the future of our planet.

They have boxes that can fit every single need. So if you want more steak or more seafood or more chicken, it's all there. And those meals come frozen for freshness packed in an eco-friendly 100% recyclable box. Their cattle are all 100% grass-fed, roaming on pasture with room to graze, their chickens are raised humanely, no cages crates or crowding and using controlled atmosphere stunning practices to minimize stress in the animals. They uphold the strictest of standards and the seafood industry, which as I found out really crazy things go down in the seafood industry. It's kind of shocking. If you want to learn more about that check out my blog post about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. And for all you bacon lovers out there, ButcherBox provides the type of bacon you want. Their bacon is heritage breed, free of sugar and free of nitrates. How are is that to find. And they have an incredible offer for our audience. You can get that bacon free for life.

When you sign up as a new member at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, you will get a package of free bacon in every box for the life of your subscription. Yes, that's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast, and I'll put all this information in the show notes.

Are you looking for the perfect gifts this holiday season for yourself and others? Well, the average male uses six skincare products per day, the average female uses 12. And as it turns out, conventional skincare and makeup is full of toxins. We're talking things like endocrine disrupters, obesogens. Meaning, they literally cause your body to store and gain weight, and even carcinogens linked to cancer. So while you may be fasting clean, you may be putting compounds directly into your body during the fast, they can be affecting both your health and weight loss. Thankfully, there's an easy solution.

There's a company called Beautycounter and they make an array of skincare makeup products that are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can feel good about all of the ingredients that you put on. Their products are even tested multiple times for heavy metals. And for the holiday season, Beautycounter has so many amazing gift sets. These are bundled products at a discount, and they make incredible gifts. Think about it. You can get the products for yourself or for your friends and family and help clean up their skincare, all in disguise of gift-giving. Works pretty well. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. And if you use that link, something really special and magical might happen after you place your first order. If you're trying to figure out exactly which products to get, check out my beauty counter quiz, that's at melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz. And for the latest discounts and giveaways from me, definitely get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is episode number one 190 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I'm so glad to be here today.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, throwing up my routine intro. Why are you so glad to be here today?

Gin Stephens: I don't know, just in general. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, is there something? I don't--

Gin Stephens: No, I'm just feeling very cheerful.

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Gin Stephens: I started decorating for Christmas.

Melanie Avalon: Aww.

Gin Stephens: I know it's really early. We're recording on November 12. It makes me cheery. Just the whole-- I'm going to show you-- look at my little tree that's sitting beside me, isn’t that cute? Can you see it?

Melanie Avalon: It’s doing the weird thing where it just shows me pictures but-- Oh, I see it.

Gin Stephens: Do you see it?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. What is it?

Gin Stephens: It's a little Christmas tree.

Melanie Avalon: Plastic?

Gin Stephens: No, it's ceramic, and I got it. Today, it's this little ceramic tree, if people have seen the green ceramic trees that are big, that have the little multicolored plastic things that you stick in there, but they're usually big. This is a small version, but it's ceramic. And it's battery-powered. It's like a little-- it's my podcasting tree and I'm so excited.

Melanie Avalon: That's fabulous.

Gin Stephens: You just have to be cheerful when you're decorating for Christmas. At least I do.

Melanie Avalon: I love it.

Gin Stephens: I'm doing a little bit at the time every day. Yesterday, I put up the garland around the great room and today I put up two trees, but I didn't decorate them. I just put them up.

Melanie Avalon: Obviously not real trees.

Gin Stephens: Well, no. We're artificial tree over here because if you're going to have a tree up for two months, it can't be real. I use Costco trees. They're fabulous. You can change them from white light to color light. You just click the button and now they're colored or you click the button and now they're white. So depending on the mood you're in. They're really easy to put together.

Melanie Avalon: I'm getting sad. The thing at my house and I might have talked about this before, but we were like known for our Christmas tree. It was so large. It was so tall because we had really really, really tall ceilings and it went almost to the top.

Gin Stephens: I've got really really tall ceilings and I thought about getting a giant one last year for the first Christmas in the house, but I decided I wouldn't be able to manage it myself. I don't want to have to climb up on a giant ladder to decorate it or pay someone to do it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my mom would pay a decorator to decorate it.

Gin Stephens: I like to do it myself. I will say funny story, when we first moved in, and we had-- there's this local moving company that's run by firefighters and they move from furniture stores or if you need something really big, they'll leave it for you. And I called them, we had ordered-- we had bought some furniture that we needed to have delivered and so we had them deliver it and they're like, “Oh, we've been here before. We delivered the biggest Christmas tree I've ever seen,” the guys, to the old owners. Yes. The biggest Christmas tree he'd ever seen came in our great room because it's a big great room but--

Melanie Avalon: Ah, I love Christmas.

Gin Stephens: I do too.

Melanie Avalon: Something we have in common.

Gin Stephens: We do. We both love Christmas. You just had a great birthday.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Except--

Gin Stephens: Now, look, I'm more excited.

Melanie Avalon: I was like dying from the fumes, so I pretty much canceled all plans. Oh, did I tell you that?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, because they fixed my ceilings and then they painted.

Gin Stephens: And it was very painty?

Melanie Avalon: It was awful. I think they use oil-based paints, and literally I just died. I almost got a hotel. So, I was like, “I'm going to postpone,” so we postponed. I'm going to do dinner with the family in a week maybe. But I got flowers from Gin.

Gin Stephens: Yay!

Melanie Avalon: It was a lovely surprise. Thank you.

Gin Stephens: I'm glad you enjoyed the flowers, but I'm sorry, it was all paint fumed.

Melanie Avalon: It's all good. I'm going to make up for it. I’ve got so many wonderful-- you definitely feel loved in the Facebook groups on your birthday. I was like, “Oh my goodness, so many birthday wishes.”

Gin Stephens: It's so special. In mine, I don't even know if I saw them all or kept up with them all. So, if anybody if I didn't like or love yours, thank you anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you, everybody, it was wonderful.

Gin Stephens: Well, I have two other things to talk about that are very exciting.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, perfect. I do too.

Gin Stephens: Yay. First of all, I went to the beach with my friends from college, and I drank zero alcohol.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And I told them all why and, and they're like, “Oh, that explains a lot,” about why I was always the person who felt so terrible, and even when I tried to pace myself, so it was great. I drove us around. I was the designated driver. I didn't even feel I was missing it. And here's something funny, I was actually able to stay awake longer, I think. I didn't crash and burn.

Melanie Avalon: Well, that makes sense, because I feel you get really tired with alcohol.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I was just as fun and just as funny and probably more. So, I didn't miss it at all.

Melanie Avalon: I only told you, I didn't talk on the podcast about my genetic resulting, right?

Gin Stephens: No, you did not.

Melanie Avalon: Listeners-- I want you to do it, Gin. I want to know what your says. So, I'm a huge fan of SelfDecode. It's a genetic analyzer. And they have really, really detailed reports. I was laughing out loud because I ran the-- they just released a food sensitivity one, at the top, it gives a summary and it shows how you react to carbs, lectins, food additives, histamine, like all these different things in food and then alcohol. Mine was all red, will react to this, except alcohol was green. It was alcohol tolerant.

Gin Stephens: I know I'm the opposite.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I was like, “I bet it will be.” But if you do it, it'll be all green and then alcohol will be red.

Gin Stephens: You're probably right.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, listeners, I'll put a link in the show notes to it, though, because I have a 10% off coupon. It's melanieavalon.com/selfdecode.

Gin Stephens: Well, I had mocktails the whole time and it was great. I felt so good. It was wonderful. I have one other thing that's so exciting. You know me talking about wanting a clock that you could turn off?

Melanie Avalon: At night?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I found one.

Melanie Avalon: What does it do?

Gin Stephens: It's the Hatch Restore. I wish they were sponsoring our podcast because that's how much I love them, but it's one of those that has the sunrise feature that it turn on a sunrise and wake you gently and gradually, but it has the feature where you can on their app, set it to only display the time during the time you want it. So, I have mine every night at 10:00 PM. It stops displaying the time and it starts displaying the time again at 5:15.

Melanie Avalon: That's really cool. What's it called again?

Gin Stephens: It's so cool, the Hatch Restore.

Melanie Avalon: The Hatch Restore.

Gin Stephens: So, you can pick like a sunrise and it wakes you up with the sunrise that whatever you pick. I don't need a sunrise because I'm always awake, but it's really helping me in the night because when I wake up, I don't have any light on because the clocks are very bright. But, also, I don't have to check the time because I know it's too early. If the clock is not showing, I don't have to wonder because what would happen before is, I would wake up, and now I'd feel it might be morning. Maybe it's morning, I'm wide awake. I would have to pick up my phone and look at it. Well, that's bright light shining into your eyes, and it would be like 2:00 AM. Now I've looked at bright light at 2:00 AM. I didn't want to clock on all the time. Now if there's no clock showing, I know it's still the middle of the night.

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Kirk Parsley, the sleep expert, his one tip that he says or he has a lot of tips. One of his main tips is, when you wake up, do not look at the clock. He says that you might wonder, “Oh, but maybe it's time to get up.” Well, if alarm clock hasn't gone off yet, then it's not time to get up. So, doesn't really matter.

Gin Stephens: See, I didn't have an alarm. For me, I don't need an alarm to wake up in the morning. But I couldn't tell if it was time to get up or if it was 2:00 in the morning. But now, I can't see a clock, I literally can't. It's off. It is a game-changer. I'm so much happier. I've only had it for less than a week. I love it so much. So much.

Melanie Avalon: Well, we'll have to put a link to that in the show notes.

Gin Stephens: Yes. I mean, I knew that there had to be something like that. It was just a matter of finding it.

Melanie Avalon: Was it on Amazon?

Gin Stephens: I don't know if it's on Amazon. I bought it through their website. I first bought like a cheap knockoff on Amazon and it was terrible. It wouldn't link to my WiFi. So, I would not go buy a cheap knockoff on Amazon. I'd go buy the real one.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. I actually have a question for you, something I bought on your recommendation. I bought Shapa scale.

Gin Stephens: Love it.

Melanie Avalon: I am struggling majorly to get it to work. I have to stand on it. It literally takes three times every time for it to work.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's weird. I've never had that or heard of that. You’ve got to stand on the metal things. I don’t know, that's weird.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so that's not normal. I was wondering if maybe--

Gin Stephens: Maybe change the battery. I've never heard anybody else say that. I get on and it works.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, this is the scale that shows you a color, not a number.

Gin Stephens: Love it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, question about it, though, because it says you have to go 10 days in a row to calibrate it. Do you have to measure morning and evening both days for 10 days?

Gin Stephens: For calibration, it wants you to do that. I don't know what will happen if you don't because I did.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, because I was measuring every night because I don't like doing it in the morning. I just don't. It was doing a foot every single day, but then with the mold and the paint and moving, I stopped doing it. Now I have to start over.

Gin Stephens: I just followed the directions and I got on it every day. I think it is important to follow the directions for the calibration period and weigh twice a day.

Melanie Avalon: I'll let you know if it works doing it just at night and we'll see. I'm going to go rogue.

Gin Stephens: All right.

Melanie Avalon: After you calibrate, do you measure morning and night or just--?

Gin Stephens: Just morning. You just have to calibrate it morning and night. And then once a day.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, we'll see. So, I have two quick little things related to all the things we've been talking about, fasting, insulin, and blood sugar.

Gin Stephens: All right.

Melanie Avalon: I told you this, but I got my insulin tested, which is so exciting.

Gin Stephens: It really is exciting.

Melanie Avalon: Because we often talk about how at the doctor, they often measure blood sugar, but not insulin levels. I was really excited because tomorrow I'm interviewing Dr. Bikman. Benjamin Bikman, who wrote why we get sick and it's all about insulin, and he does talk about testing insulin. I was really nervous because I always say that I just feel I'm not very insulin sensitive. He says fasting insulin should be less than six, I guess. Most people are not that. Mine was four. So, I'm happy.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you should be. That's great.

Melanie Avalon: I do wonder, I do feel it's the intermittent fasting that keeps me there. I think if I were eating a normal diet or anything like that, it would not be that.

Gin Stephens: I think you're right. I wish I knew what mine was way before, but I don't have that data. It would be fascinating to know, but mine was right around that same level.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it was really exciting, though. I thought I was like, it's probably going to be 20.

Gin Stephens: Oh, no. Uh-huh. No, no. I wouldn't think that at all.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't know. But in any case, that was really exciting. For listeners, that is a lab test that you can ask for your doctor to draw. It's just not often drawn, but it is something that you can test. Then, second really quick announcement is, I've been wearing CGMs as you know, and I sent you this, Gin, but ever since I've been taking berberine, it's making my blood sugar epic. Epic. Which is really exciting. I've now have a code and discount for listeners. I'm so excited. I've been waiting to share this because I'm testing Nutrisense and Levels. Levels, they're on a waitlist right now. When I have my code, it will get you to the front of the waitlist for it. If you want to get one now, Nutrisense does have theirs now, and you can go to melanieavalon.com/nutrisensecgm, and the coupon code MelanieAvalon will get you 15% off. So, if you want to jump on this CGM train that Gin and I have experienced. I'm obsessed. I think I'm going to wear one for the rest of my life.

Gin Stephens: Do you?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: I realized I don't like things on my body. It was great. I love the data, but I was ready to get that sucker off.

Melanie Avalon: I've done two rounds now. And now I'm going to put on-- I have three sensors that I can put on. I have my arm air out a little bit.

Gin Stephens: It made me really feel compassion for people who require these types of things, like require them. My friend whose son is type 1 diabetic and he has to wear an insulin pump all the time. I have a lot of compassion now and sympathy because they have to do it to be alive. And goodness, that's a lot.

Melanie Avalon: Monitoring it, and, yeah. I mean, because for us, it's just enlightening and fun, but, yeah, that'd be a completely different situation. Like you said, I don't like having things stuck to me. I just got an Oura ring too, and even that I'm like, I have to-- I love wearing it. The idea of constantly wearing something to monitor you is an interesting concept.

Gin Stephens: I wore an Apple Watch. I was an early adopter and I had one for-- I don't know, a couple years and then I just quit wearing it. I was like, “This is driving me crazy.” I unadopted.

Melanie Avalon: You unadopted.

Gin Stephens: I'm an Apple lover. I love Apple. I'm like, “Yeah, I don't need to wear this.” I also, full disclosure, how am I going to put it? Middle-aged woman and so I could not see the screen very well. So, that was also part of it, but wearing it was one thing too.

Melanie Avalon: I'm on day two of Oura. I really like it so far. Although I realized I had my first night and I didn't feel I slept that well. I had an 85 which is in there, great level. It was like, “Oh, maybe I do sleep better than I think. Maybe I'm too hard on myself.”

Gin Stephens: My friend Sheri, co-host of Life Lessons with me, she has an Oura ring. She really likes it.

Melanie Avalon: She likes it?

Gin Stephens: Oh, she loves it.

Melanie Avalon: If anybody ever wants to propose to me, they have an Oura ring with diamonds in it.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's hilarious. I love that.

Melanie Avalon: So that better be the way that goes down.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, my sleep score last night was 92 on my bed because my bed gives me a sleep score.

Melanie Avalon: I actually just got in the mail of monitoring mattress thing that will start monitoring and cools. I haven't installed it yet.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I love my sleep number.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, all the things.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Exactly.

Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about one of the sponsors for today's show. And that's Audible. Audible is the leading provider of spoken-word entertainment and audiobooks. Ranging from bestsellers to celebrity memoirs, news, business, and self-development. Every month, members get one credit to pick any title two audible originals from a monthly selection, access to Daily News digests and guided meditation programs. Beyond Audible’s normal entertainment and audiobook options, I want to tell you about something special they're offering right now. And that's stories.audible.com.

The experience is completely ad-free and completely anonymous. No need to download an app, sign up, or login. Just click, stream and listen. And now here's a special offer just for our listeners. Visit audible.com/ifpodcast or text IFPodcast to 500-500. Try Audible for free and get one free audiobook in your first month. Of course, Melanie and I recommend that you choose What When Wine or Fast. Feast. Repeat., or even Delay, Don't Deny. Or you can choose from the thousands of titles available on Audible. That's audible.com/ifpodcast. And now back to the show.

Ready to get started with our first question?

Melanie Avalon: I think so.

Gin Stephens: All right. This is from Kathy. And the subject is “Lowering High Cholesterol with IF.” She says, “Hi ladies. I absolutely love your podcast. I have been IFing since May and listening to you the whole time. I've already hit my goal weight. I gained 15 quarantine pounds.” I guess she gained the quarantine pounds and then have lost them. That's what I'm understanding there. All right. She says, I feel great and see this as a forever lifestyle. I do a 24, Monday through Thursday and a loose 18:6 Friday through Sunday. I am just now starting to feel the inflammation leaving my body. In the last four years, I have gotten adhesive capsulitis, frozen shoulder, in the rarity of both shoulders, one at a time. So, that was a big plus for me to start if to maintain my body's inflammation, even though I was already on the mend. But I am wondering how IF affects high cholesterol. My doctor has been watching my levels for the last five years.

Oh, by the way, I'm 52 years old and 5’5”, and 125 pounds. I am mostly vegetarian, eating fish or turkey bacon only a couple of times a month, if that. I don't like the texture and taste of animal protein. Never have. I don't eat yogurt or drink milk. I eat a hard-boiled egg about two times a week, and I love cheese. At my last doctor's appointment, she said she would put me on cholesterol meds if I could not get it lowered by diet and exercise. Which to me seemed odd since I don't eat a lot of the things that are high in cholesterol. I was exercising at least 30 to 60 minutes a day, three to four times a week. I do not want to be put on any medications. I don't know if IF helps with lowering cholesterol, but I'm very interested to see what you both know.

Any research and information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much for all your podcasting support and inspiration. Take care, Kathy.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Kathy. Thank you so much for your question. Gin, did I say on this podcast yet what my mom experienced recently? I think I did.

Gin Stephens: I can't remember.

Melanie Avalon: She has a genetic tendency towards high cholesterol levels. It's not APOE for, I'm not sure what it is, but she went in recently and her cholesterol was pretty bad, and her doctor wanted her on statins. Now she did not do IF, she's not yet on the IF train, but she did change her diet from her standard American to more of like a pescatarian diet. The doctor wanted her on statins, but he said he would give her a month to try this dietary change, and she did and her LDL went down 100 points, which is crazy. Now she's sold on the power of diet, and dietary changes to affect cholesterol. Before I go into the information, really, really brief overview.

Typically when you're checking cholesterol levels in the body, things that are looked at are HDL, which is typically considered the “good cholesterol,” LDL, which is usually considered the “bad cholesterol,” and then triglycerides, which are the actual blood fat. The reason I say typically is there is a lot of debate about, is LDL, actually that problematic? Is it more about the ratio to HDL? Is that actually protective of some things? Is the problem coming from the LDL and HDL? Or is that actually coming from other factors. In any case, as far as affecting, what is seen as good cholesterol levels, the connection with fasting is pretty interesting.

There is a lot of research, I don't want to just say, “Oh, there's tons of research,” saying, “IF is great for cholesterol,” because it's more complicated than that. There is a lot of research showing that. I'll put links to all of this in the show notes. This was in rats, but one called “Time-restricted Feeding is a preventative and therapeutic intervention against diverse nutritional changes.” It found that rats eating a high-fat diet or doing it normally or with time-restricted feeding, it was interesting, they actually had increased expression of enzymes that you think would raise cholesterol, but they actually experienced reduced cholesterol levels. This was in intermittent fasting rats.

In humans, there's also been a lot of studies showing that. For example, and one overview from 2019, called Intermittent Fasting and Cardiovascular Disorders. They found that the IF diet limits many risk factors for the development of cardiovascular disease, by affecting the biochemical transformations of lipids, it decreases body mass and has a positive influence on lipid profile parameters. It reduces the concentration of total cholesterol, triglycerides and LDL cholesterol. Again, that was more of a review. Some studies, however, have found no effect. One study was called “Effects of an eight-hour time-restricted feeding on body weight and metabolic disease risk factors in obese adults,” a pilot study. It compared time-restricted feeding to not time-restricted feeding, and it found that there wasn't really any significant difference between cholesterol levels between the two groups. On the flip side, some studies have actually found the opposite.

They found that cholesterol, particularly LDL goes up. I think this might be more of a case when it's a longer fast or something like alternate day fasting. For example, one called Intermittent Fasting: Is the Wait Worth the Weight? Compared ADF to calorie restriction to control and it found that in the ADF group, their LDL cholesterol levels actually went up. Then it started looking at longer fast. We're talking seven days, it found that cholesterol levels went up, including LDL. That's something that I've seen and heard and a lot of interviews that I've listened to, podcasts, books. In general, intermittent fasting seems to be pretty protective and supportive and great for cardiovascular health and addressing things like cholesterol levels and things like that.

Some of the problems come, and I think there can be a transient rise in cholesterol or LDL, and longer fast, so not what we're talking about with daily fasting, but more like a couple days. Also, like I said that that study looking at ADF found a similar result. I've heard a lot of experts talk about this, and I do think there's the potential that when you are in more of a fat-burning mode that you are up-regulating LDL and HDL carriers. That might not be necessarily a problem as much as just a signifier of being more fasted. I'm sorry, this is so long, but in general, the majority of the research that I've seen seems to show that IF has a-- if not a neutral, than a beneficial effect on cholesterol levels, that was really long. Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: In general, we know that there is a link to high cholesterol in any weight loss. Just because when you're releasing fat, your body releases those free fatty acids, and they're in the bloodstream. There's a study that I share a lot. It's called “The transient hypercholesterolemia of major weight loss.” It's from 1991. It shows that when you're losing fat, you're likely to have a temporary increase in cholesterol. That's why it's called the transient hypercholesterolemia of major weight loss. Burning fat weight loss should go up. I would look for that study and share that with your doctor and say, “Hey, I just lost some fat, so it makes sense that based on this, that I would have temporary increased high cholesterol. So, that would make sense for people who are new to intermittent fasting and releasing fat as well. We would expect that because it's been shown, but then over time, we do see a lot of people who have normalized cholesterol.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. The intense weight loss, like I said, the longer fasting, I think it will typically be transient.

Gin Stephens: If that's why it's high. See, I don't know if that's true for Kathy, because she said that her doctor’s been watching her levels for five years. So, it could be genetic a thing and nothing to do with her fasting or fat loss.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because genetically going back to the genetics, people who do have ApoE4 variant that I mentioned, when I talk about my mom, who I don't think she has that, but people who do have that, that is a variant where you probably don't want to be having high amounts of cholesterol or saturated fat. I mean, that could be something to test for you, Kathy. But if you don't have that, I definitely think IF with dietary practices can help you address it. I would play around with your dietary choices and see if you can lower it with diet and IF. I feel you should be able to. Of course, again, we just said that it could have been from the weight loss, because she doesn't say how high it was up.

Gin Stephens: Exactly, or that it did go. We don't know if it did go up. So, maybe it's just always been high and it's still high. She was hoping it would be down, but maybe it was high, and now it's higher. That's what we're not sure about that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because her doctor just said she put her on meds, she could not get it lowered by diet and exercise. I would say keep on with the IF. You could try-- I say this so hesitantly, well, that’s the other thing is, I would want to know what her ratios are. I'm assuming it's a problematic ratio and panel of cholesterol that she's presenting. What are your thoughts, Gin, on dietary cholesterol and cholesterol levels?

Gin Stephens: Well, it's controversial tiptoeing around it, because you can read by sides of it, and you can see well-respected people talk about it both ways. I'm not an expert in that regard. I don't want to say, “Don't worry about cholesterol, it's no big deal because I read this and it said, not to.” Or, “How about take the statin or don't take the statin.” It's controversial. So, I am not an expert in this area. I don't want to weigh in on it because no matter what I say, half the people are going to be like, “That's not true,” because it just depends on your train of thought with it. That's all I'm going to say about that. Isn't that what Forrest Gump always said? “That's all I'm going to say about that.” It is not my expertise and I'm not going to pretend that it is. And not that you pretend to that it was, we're not pretending that it's our expertise. Neither of us are. You know what I mean.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just fascinated by it because like you just said, there are very polarizing camps on it. My idea is like, if I had really high cholesterol levels, what I think I would do for me is, I don't think I would do a high-fat diet, and I would still eat fats that are like, nourishing. I know, there's the whole keto high fat world, but I don't think anybody necessarily has to be on a high high-fat diet to get all your nutrition. I probably would try a lower-fat diet without doing seed oils and without doing processed foods and things like that.

Gin Stephens: I probably would, too. That's probably what I would do.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe dietary cholesterol has no effect, but maybe it does. I don't know. So, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Again, that's one of those controversial things, you can read both sides of it. Of course, you and I’ve probably both read things that say, “Oh, it's not as bad as you think to have high cholesterol.” And that's also controversial.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of that in the carnivore space.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: People really, really high, high, high levels.

Gin Stephens: They reject the whole theory that high cholesterol is bad for you.

Melanie Avalon: Well, not that it's bad, but in the context of high HDL, and then in the context of no other inflammatory marker-- like no other markers. It's a really fascinating story. Shall we move on to the next question?

Gin Stephens: We have a question from Bernadette and the subject is No Weight Loss. “Hello, Melanie, and Gin. I've been listening to your podcast for a while now for the last year or so. I listened to you ladies when I get up every week getting ready for work, and on my way to work. I enjoy listening to your podcast. Thank you for all the information you provide to your listeners. I am also a member of Gin's Facebook group Delay, Don’t Deny. I posted on there a couple of times and don't really get an answer to my issues at hand. I take the advice as to what to do, but it still hasn't helped in any way when I do follow the advice. I did weighing myself every week and my weight stayed between 178 to 180 for two months or so. I never lost or gained any more than that. I'm truly at a loss as to why I haven't lost weight in the last four years.

I have done keto, low carb, plant-based, no dairy, and now trying carnivore as well. I am on week six of carnivore and the same results. There isn't any no weight loss or inches lost as well. The first year I did intermittent fasting I was also doing Orangetheory classes five days a week for a year and a half. That year I tried keto and low carb with no results. So, I quit Orangetheory because why am I paying for an expensive gym fee with no results while I'm also eating right. I've taken out all sugars, even artificial, and I don't eat fruits either because of the sugar content in fruits. I continued to work out at home and intermittent fast with keto low carb and still no results. Now I'm trying carnivore.” Then she has a frowny emoji, a sad emoji.

“I also join in on the 36 to 42-hour fasts on Gin's group. I start my fast Sunday evening and open my window on Tuesday every week, as I started the carnivores six weeks ago. Do you see my frustration? Still no results. I clean fast and open my window daily between 12:00 and 2:00. I was in two rear-enders last year back to back and have not been able to work out anymore as I am in constant pain from my neck to my lower back. I’ve been seeing my chiropractor and still recovery is slow. I have taken blood tests on my thyroid and they say it's good, all my bloodwork is good no problems as they say and got tested for T3 and T4. Finally, the doctor acknowledged that I am pre-diabetic and have insulin resistance. With all that I've been doing with the fasting, which I have tried different times of day and have done 16:8 or 24, and even done 23:1, still no results. Also, I have tried one meal a day, still nothing.

A little more background on myself. I'm 49, and according to my doctor, I'm in menopause, but not quite fully menopausal, as I had no period for two months. But then I got a period, so a bit confused. I do take supplements which are calcium, magnesium, omega-3s, cinnamon, turmeric, apple cider vinegar pills, cayenne pepper pills, D3, as the doctor says I'm low in that, probiotics and flaxseed oil. Those are my daily supplements. I stopped for a while though, and started back up again with taking them. Sorry for the long email. I've been frustrated with this for four years and don't know more of what to do. I feel like just giving up, but I still go on even though there is no results for this long. I still continue to do intermittent fasting. And, yes, I do fast clean as well. Any ideas as to why my body is just not reacting to anything I'm doing, would be greatly appreciated. I've been doing this for four years with no results,” another frowny emoji. Thank you, Bernadette, from Canada. I actually got a few ideas while I was reading it. So, let's see what you come up with first, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, thank you, Bernadette, for your question, and I know for listeners, Bernadette's case is very specific to her and she's done a lot of things specific to her. But I do think there are a lot of people that maybe experienced this where they just feel they're trying all these different things. And then when I say all the things, I mean all the things still within our accepted world of low carb or keto or all these different approaches, and then the exercise and the supplements and testing, and not knowing what is what, and not feeling like anything can work. I think it can be very exacerbating, so I feel for you, Bernadette, a lot. I'm also sorry about your accident that is back to back, two rear-enders that is not a fun thing to go through.

I'm not saying mindset is the answer, but I wanted to start with the mindset and encourage you to take a step back and rather than feeling frustrated or feeling like nothing's working and you need to-- I don't know how long you're giving each of these approaches because you said it's been four years and you've tried all these different things. We know that you've been doing carnivore at least six weeks, but I don't know how long for these different approaches each one lasted. So, it could be a thing of not giving anyone approach long enough to make the changes that you need to see, need to be making. I don't want you to focus on calories or anything like that. But I do wonder-- because she says she has tried different fasting windows. It may be for you that you will need a shorter fasting window compared to the longer fasting windows. It may be on the days when you have longer fasting windows depending on what combination of diet you were trying at that time, that that just wasn't a diet and a window that would work for you to get the weight loss results that you want to get the--

She's been diagnosed as prediabetic and having insulin resistance, so we know that's going on. Since we know that she is at that place right now, and things are not working, I would encourage you, Bernadette, to try a shorter eating window. We talked about length recently about that study that compared a 16:8 window to a control and didn't really find much difference. A lot of people do find success in 16:8, but for you, that might not work. I would suggest a shorter eating window. I know you're doing carnivore right now, although I don't know when she sent this email, but picking one of the approaches, and giving it as a substantial amount of time with the shorter eating window, and maybe just simplifying, because you're taking all these supplements, and then you're taking them and then you're not taking them and then you're taking them again, there's just a lot of potential decision fatigue, a lot of over-analyzing, lot of variables. So, I think if you can get as simple as you can, with your approach, sticking it out, giving it an actual like, “I will give it three months.” And if that doesn't work, then do three months of another dietary approach, perhaps, and just try to make it more simple.

Then, also integrate into that, perhaps whatever mindset type approach works for you personally, because I know struggling with the pain must be a lot to work with. I wanted to point out, for example, you said that you're going to the gym, but you stopped because why are you paying for an expensive gym fee with no results while you're eating right. To me, that says you were maybe expecting the gym to provide weight loss, that's what you're paying for, but the benefits of exercise go so much beyond just weight loss. It could be a reframe of mindset is what I'm trying to encourage here. If you didn't enjoy going to the gym, then that's maybe not the exercise that you should gravitate towards. But if you enjoyed going to it for the social aspect or just getting moving. There are a lot of benefits to that. Even if you're not seeing a change on the scale, you can still most likely see benefits from exercise. I will say, like I said, I'm reading and interviewing Dr. Bikman tomorrow and he talks a lot about the role of exercise and insulin resistance. I don't know what type of classes are Orangetheory, I'm guessing it's different types of classes. It does seem that for insulin resistance, in particular, strength training is probably more beneficial. That's because our muscles are a huge source, they take up glucose from our bloodstream.

The more muscle we have, the more it can take glucose up from our bloodstream and it doesn't even require insulin to do that. If you do strength training exercise, the muscles can lower your blood sugar taken glucose without requiring any insulin. I try to say all this with love and kindness. If you can not be so hard on yourself, find some things that bring you joy beyond the diet and all of that. Mindfulness, meditation, friends, hobbies, and maybe just pick a diet and a window for, I would do it in three month cycles before you evaluate if they're working or not working.

Gin Stephens: Yep. One thing that that really jumped out at me is that she continues to try keto and low carb and carnivore over and over. She mentioned plant-based for one second, for literally one second. It was popped in there. She did keto, low carb plant-based, no dairy, carnivore. Then she talked later about doing carnivore, later about doing low carb. I think she's done a whole lot of low carb keto, carnivore. I would really encourage you, Bernadette, to read Mastering Diabetes, because clearly the keto low carb approach does not seem to be working well for your body because you're still pre-diabetic. And if you've been doing intermittent fasting for four years, and restricting carbs for most of that time, and you're still insulin resistant and pre-diabetic, then the foods you're eating are not working well for your body.

Also, all those supplements, make sure you're not taking them during the fast. Sometimes people get confused by that and they take them all during the fast because people hear, “Oh, you know cinnamon is great for normalizing blood sugar, so I'm going to take it during the fast,” but avoid all those food like supplements during the fast. The omega-3s, the cinnamon, the turmeric, the apple cider vinegar pills, the cayenne pepper pills. Also, by the way, here's my two cents on all these pills supplements, like apple cider vinegar pill.

Melanie Avalon: I agree, just have the apple cider vinegar or have the pepper.

Gin Stephens: Make a salad dressing out of apple cider vinegar with some turmeric.

Melanie Avalon: Or add the cinnamon.

Gin Stephens: Yes, add it to your food. I'm not a fan of taking them as a supplement. So, use the food, ditch them as a supplement. I know it's frustrating, but two other factors that jumped out at me. One, the accident. If you're in constant pain, I think it's really hard to lose weight when you're in constant pain. Your body is focused on the stress of the pain. Also, perimenopause. Most people gain weight during the menopausal transition, most women do. If you are only maintaining, and you're going through the transition, that may be a victory. Maintaining, and not gaining. So, if you go all the way to the other side of menopause without gaining weight, that's a huge victory, because a lot of women gain substantial weight during this time. So, if you're in constant pain, going through menopause and not gaining weight, then intermittent fasting is successful. Is it getting you to the weight loss goal that you have set for yourself? No. I understand that by that metric, it is not successful. But I would really encourage you to-- I think you've shown that keto, low carb, and carnivore are not lowering your insulin levels and getting you out of that pre-diabetic range. So, I would try something different. The Mastering Diabetes approach is the 180 to what it sounds like you've tried. I would try that, see how that goes.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. That was one thing I highlighted was, for example, she says she doesn't eat fruits because of the sugar content. While I agree, if you're doing low carb, you don't want to be eating fruit without especially if you're doing a high-fat approach. The sugar and fruits is not the same thing as like table sugar. And the majority of, I think, it might be all. It might be that every study on the damaging effects of fructose, maybe there's an exception, but the majority of them are looking at high fructose corn syrup, which is like refined fructose. They're not looking at fruit. There's a lot of studies actually showing a beneficial effect on insulin resistance, and pre-diabetes and even diabetes with fruit, things like berries. Trust me, I google this a lot. So, if you do decide to go on like a higher carb, low-fat approach, whole foods based, like the Mastering Diabetes approach, which is basically what that is. Although Mastering Diabetes, they are completely plant-based, but you can still read that book and it's a new paradigm way of thinking as far as high carb, low fat, whole foods, and the potential benefits that you might experience in weight loss, insulin resistance, things like that. So, we'll put a link to it in the show notes. I keep thinking that we've interviewed them on this show, but we haven't, right?

Gin Stephens: Well, we haven't. No.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I guess we just talked about it is so much.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, just because we know everyone's different when it comes to what foods work for us and we've had the--

Melanie Avalon: We should bring them on. They love fasting.

Gin Stephens: Well, we should we've had the BiOptimizer guys on and they’re each 180 from one another and respect that different styles are better for different people. And so this is just one of those things. It seems like Bernadette really is caught in the paradigm of, I got to eat low carb keto, carnivore, to lower my insulin, to reverse my prediabetes. If that was the magic bullet with the fasting and eating low carb, she would have done it. It would have happened. And so it's time to say, “Well, that was not what my body wanted."

Melanie Avalon: Another thing about if you do high carb, low fat from a just whole foods, and if you did it with intermittent fasting, you would have to try so hard to not be in a calorie deficit, when it's all whole food space. So, that might even-- on top of potentially shifting things around with how your body is processing fuels, you might at the same time without even meaning to bring in a calorie deficit as well. So, you could possibly see major changes. We know that she's done plant-based in the past, so we know at least she's open to eating those types of foods. So maybe trying it with a more concentrated approach with that might be helpful.

Gin Stephens: I would really just see you know what the Mastering Diabetes guys say and then I would just really commit to that and see.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I did an interview with them on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, so we'll put a link to in the show notes. I think it's melanieavalon.com/masteringdiabetes.

Gin Stephens: Yep. All right. I hope that helped Bernadette, I know that you're frustrated, I can totally hear it.

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The next one is from Jalen, and the subject is, “What is the deal with purified alkaline water?” “Hi, Gin and Melanie. Thank you both so much for everything you do. I have been fasting 24 for about six months, I have lost most of the baby weight, still working on those last 10 pounds. I realize how important it is to fast clean and to get in plenty of water. I usually carry around a half-gallon water container. I have had several friends recently rave about purified alkaline water. I thought water was water, H2O. And it should always be neutral. I prefer distilled water and the occasional mineral water. Since you guys are amazing at digging through the studies, I was just wondering if there really is any benefit to drinking purified alkaline water, especially while fasting. Thanks for your help. Jalen in Pittsburgh.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, alkaline water. This is another thing where there's big camps on this topic. I will tell you my opinion and you can just take what resonates from it with you, and run with that. So really quickly, comparing like the potential alkalizing effect of water versus food on the body because food as well there's the whole alkaline diet thing. The science that I've seen behind alkalinizing food is that when we digest them, they leave-- it's called an ash, but basically it's the metabolic byproducts of the food and whether or not those are alkalinizing, or acidifying. I actually think that all makes a lot of sense. People will say that it won't be reflected in the bloodwork because the kidneys do what they have to do to keep your blood at a certain pH. And yes, that is true, but I do think that if you're eating certain foods that require your kidneys to work more to maintain that. I mean, I think that's saying something, that's the food side of things.

The reason I'm giving that context is that with water, there's not an ash that's being produced. You take in the water. Our stomach is a certain pH, so I have often heard the argument made that it's actually more taxing on your body to bring in alkaline water because in the stomach, it's going to be acidified. It's going to be changed anyway. I don't know that there's an effect beyond that. I know a lot of people and I actually personally experienced this. I was drinking a lot of alkaline water for a while, while fasting, but also right before eating, and it really messed with my digestion and then I switched to “normal water” and it was much better. I'm not really on the alkaline train.

I drink mineral water and glass bottles only, I think that's like the best of all worlds when it comes to water because you are getting minerals from the water and then if it's been in glass, it doesn't have the plastics and the toxins. Whole Foods actually has a store brand, like the 365 brand that you can get in glass bottles. That's mineral water. I love it. Distilled water, I would not suggest drinking distilled water unless you have a very specific reason for doing so because that can actually-- Well, there's arguments about this too, but it is thought that that can actually pull minerals from you. I think that that might be the case. So, I gave you my opinion.

Gin Stephens: I would not drink that at all. Definitely not.

Melanie Avalon: Those are my opinions. You're going to find any opinion you want, but I haven't seen anything science wise that supports.

Gin Stephens: It's actually funny when you think about it because we have these ideas in our head that if they do something to the water, it must be better. Jalen is drinking distilled water, and mineral water, which are the polar opposite. Distilled water is that everything removed and mineral water has stuff in it. They're the opposite, but we don't know. We're like, “Oh, this must be better because they're making it and they take the time to do it. It must be better.”

Melanie Avalon: Well, I guess as far as like watering water, mineral water would sort of be the closest to that, because that is just water from certain places where there are minerals.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it does have that. It's not just 100% H20. Mineral water is not 100% H20.

Melanie Avalon: But it doesn't have minerals added. It's just that water naturally.

Gin Stephens: I mean, the mineral naturally. Distilled water is probably closer to 100% H2O, right?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I see what you're saying. I was talking about doing something to the water.

Gin Stephens: Right. We have to do something to the water to make it just be water because naturally water is never just water.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so distilled water, I guess would be that. But we don't want to do that. Or I don't, because it's going to change how it interacts with our body.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's not natural. There is no distilled water in nature. We're not designed to drink distilled water, because that's not the way water was presented to human beings ever.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I'm excited. I'm bringing on Dr. Anthony Beck onto my show. He goes deep into a lot of these myths, and he's very opinionated. I plan to ask him all about this--

Gin Stephens: Oh, good.

Melanie Avalon: -when that episode comes out, I'll put a link. Well, I don't know when that episode is coming out. So, stay tuned. Follow the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. When I interview Dr. Anthony Beck, I plan to ask him this question. So, yeah. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the podcast, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can find all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram. I have been posting more, I see Gin has been posting more, applause to that. Gin and I are not so good at posting on Instagram, but we're trying.

Gin Stephens: I'm trying.

Melanie Avalon: We're trying, and so that is @MelanieAvalon, @GinStephens, and you can follow our Instagram IF Podcast, which is @IFpodcast, right? I said out of order, now I forgot. I think it's IF Podcast. Yeah. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it. Good talk.

Melanie Avalon: Good times. I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Talk to you then.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Gin Stephens: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

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