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Dec 05

Episode 242: Breaking Fast For The Best Digestion, Live Podcasts, Talk Shows, Early Weight Gain, Endurance Sports, Feeling Too Full, Morning Sickness, PMDD, Hormone Regulation, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 242 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At melanieavalon.com/insidetracker! Go To insidetracker.com/melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE25 For 25% Off All Tests Sitewide!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

INSIDETRACKER: Go To Insidetracker.Com/Melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE25 For 25% Off All Tests Sitewide!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Stay Up To Date With All The News About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase Or Head Straight Over To avalonx.us To Place Your Order Now!

Listener Feedback: Andrea - Thank You!

Listener Q&A: Sally - Best Type Meal To Eat When Breaking Fast

Listener Q&A: Paul - You Guys

Listener Q&A: Phoebe - IF & Weight Gain

Listener Q&A: Ashley - Windows, Endurance Sports, Leaning Out

Get 10% Off With Coupon Code MelanieAvalon at Platt Wellness Center!

Listener Q&A: Jennifer - Feeling full

Listener Q&A: Carla - Hormones

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 242 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny® Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get 25% off one of the most amazing resources to charge of your health. Do you feel like every day, there's a new wellness trend, eat that, do this, avoid those? Just the other day in my Facebook group somebody posted, saying how they were confused about all of the expert advice out there. It seems like the only thing left that's approved is water. How do you know where to start or who to trust? I am obsessed with a company called InsideTracker. They're a David Sinclair partnered company, and they cut through the noise by analyzing your blood, DNA, lifestyle and fitness trackers to provide you a personalized science-backed trackable action plan on how to live, age, and perform better. InsideTracker is simpler, cheaper, and more convenient than traditional blood tests. 

I interviewed the founder Gil Blander on my show, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. What is so amazing about InsideTracker is that their blood tests, include the biomarkers that you need to be testing that are key to performance that you don't get from traditional blood tests. These are things like ferritin, vitamin D, GST, which is a liver enzyme that you will rarely ever see on a blood test. My favorite part, they don't just give you the data, they provide you with nutrition and lifestyle tips to take action. They also can track your inner age. Basically, how old you really are based on your blood markers. 

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One more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combined the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show.  

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 242 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great. How about you?  

Melanie Avalon: Guess what I am holding in my hand.  

Gin Stephens: Water?  

Melanie Avalon: No.  

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Because you just said you're going to drink some water before we started recording. So, I just assumed.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I do have water. Guess what type of water the water is? 

Gin Stephens: Oh, Lord, I don't know. Some kind of weird wacky water? 

Melanie Avalon: Deuterium depleted.  

Gin Stephens: I knew it. I knew it was going to be that one. I'm holding a mug of hot water, some [unintelligible [00:06:38]. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man.  

Gin Stephens: So, I'm going to guess that you're holding your Serrapeptase?  

Melanie Avalon: I am.  

Gin Stephens: I knew it.  

Melanie Avalon: It's so beautiful.  

Gin Stephens: Have you taken any yet?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I have. So, it came yesterday that like the box of my samples. Oh, the samples, that means I can finish the trademark registration. So, last night, I got the bottle and I tried it for the first time, and it was great. No GI issues. That's one thing I was a little bit worried about was GI distress because Serrapeptase doesn't really have side effects. But that is the one thing that is sometimes reported, but it felt amazing. My brain felt so clear after, and I took some today and the same thing. I'm so excited. And then I was chatting with my business partner. And he-- wait, did I tell you this already? He put one-- 

Gin Stephens: Oh, in the vinegar, yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I told you that last time. So, I'm excited.  

Gin Stephens: Yay. It's good to see a plan come together.  

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting to see an idea manifest in its physical form in front of you.  

Gin Stephens: It really is. It really, really is to know that you could do this. I was always a big dreamer as a kid, like I had all these ideas and I was like, “I'm going to do this. And I'm going to do that.”  

Melanie Avalon: Me too.  

Gin Stephens: I believe it. And you're like, “Wow. Look, we did these things.”  

Melanie Avalon: I know, you really can. When listeners get it, the logo, the Avalon X logo. The Avalon is my signature, and then the X is, it's like a DNA, but I designed that, and then they designed. I told them what I wanted the imagery to look like. It just really came together very nicely. So, by the time this episode airs, pretty sure it probably should already be in preorders if it's not sold out. So, if you'd like to preorder the supplement, which really quickly is an enzyme originally created by the Japanese silkworm. You take it in the fasted state, it breaks down protein buildup, so it can help with inflammation and allergies and brain fog and it can reduce cholesterol, breakdown amyloid plaque, and fibroids, and pain relief, and all these things. The website for it, is avalonx.com, and the email list for all the information on it as well as future supplements, is melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. So that is that. 

Gin Stephens: Congratulations.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. It's actually releasing as of this recording date this week, most likely. Like a midnight release thing. So, we shall see. Anything else new with you? 

Gin Stephens: No. Not really. I stopped to finish recording my Audiobook. So, got that coming up. I'll be glad when it's over. I love all the people who love to listen. But Lord, it's hard. [laughs] It is really hard to read a book. Clean(ish) has a lot of hardness in it. A lot of difficulty.  

Melanie Avalon: Hard words.  

Gin Stephens: Yes. I'm like, “Why did I write that? Why? Why did I write that?” I will be talking to the director and I'm like, “Can I just change this?” She's like, “No, that's a direct quote out of a journal. You cannot.” I'm like, “Okay. But why did they write it like that?” Like, how to say things, it's so hard.  

Melanie Avalon: You know what I would be curious to hear? 

Gin Stephens: What? 

Melanie Avalon: I think Fast. Feast. Repeat. is on Blinkist.  

Gin Stephens: What is Blinkist?  

Melanie Avalon: It's this, I don't know-- it's a website. I keep hearing about it on [unintelligible [00:10:17]. But it's a website where they put 15-minute summaries of nonfiction books. So, you can like, learn a lot really fast. I think your book is on there. 

Gin Stephens: I feel it might be. I think someone might have told me that, that sounds familiar. I don't really know anything about it.  

Melanie Avalon: I was contemplating downloading it not to replace researching books for my show, because I always have to read everything. But just as a recap at the end, like a summary of the book. 

Gin Stephens: For Fast. Feast. Repeat? 

Melanie Avalon: No, just in general for prepping my other-- 

Gin Stephens: Oh, I see. Okay. I was like, “What? Why do you need to listen to Fast. Feast. Repeat.? Whatever. Okay. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Like prepping other books. 

Gin Stephens: Well, that wouldn't be a bad idea.  

Melanie Avalon: I'd be curious if you listen to the Blinkist, did they put in what you would want to be the 15 minutes?  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I don't know. See, that's the kind of thing that would drive me crazy. So, I'll probably never listen. I don't want to know. That kind of stuff is so frustrating.  

Melanie Avalon: It's funny. All right. Shall we jump into everything for today?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. Let's get started.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. To start things off, we have some feedback. This is from-- Oh, no. We had this discussion recently. This is from, here we go, Andrea, Andréa, A-ndrea, And-rea, one of those. Andrea. She sent this email to me, but I asked her if we could include it because I thought it was a nice email. She said, “Hi, Melanie, I'm really fan crushing emailing you right now. I have not had a good enough question that felt worthy of emailing to the show. But I want to take this opportunity to thank you and Gin for all that you do. I'm a 44-year-old that found intermittent fasting after a long battle with my weight and anemia, that I later learned stemmed from methane based SIBO that developed after years without an appendix and gallbladder. While everyone understands how the gallbladder works. Did you know the appendix produces a probiotic that helps balance the microbiome? It's not so useless. after all.” I'd never heard that. Had you heard that, Gin. 

Gin Stephens: I haven't heard that. No, but I'm not surprised that it's not useless, because-- just because we don't understand what something is doing, doesn't mean it isn't doing something important. One of those things that never made sense to me. “Oh, you don't even need it. It's just there.” I'm like, “I doubt that.” [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if there is anything that as a species did become purposeless that we lost that we don't have now.  

Gin Stephens: I don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: Hmm, that's something to research. She says, “After resolving my gut issues with high dose herbs, biofilm disruptors, and antifungals, then healthy probiotics and prebiotics. I started intermittent fasting, and I've never felt better. I first started listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast and from there, discovered your podcast,” and she's talking about the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. She says, “Now I am into so many of the hacks, I'm sure my family thinks I'm nuts, lol. But they have no argument when the results so clearly speak for themselves. I appreciate all you do to bring light to sometimes little-known topics and speaking with the experts in an understandable way.” So, those are some great feedback from Andrea. For listeners, SIBO is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, and it's a gut issue that a lot of people, especially with IBS often struggle with, and it can be difficult to address. So, it's nice to hear that she worked out her gut issues and that intermittent fasting is really helping with that.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think so too. It also made me reflect by listening, she's a biohacker now listening to the Biohacking Podcast. I think it's just perfect the way we each are so different. Here we are together on the intermittent fasting podcast, but we each have our different strengths here. But our strengths here have spun off into completely 180 podcasts. I mean, your podcast and my podcast couldn't be more different.  

Melanie Avalon: You think so?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean, we both interview people, but we're not talking about biohacking on my podcast. It's making intermittent fasting a lifestyle on Intermittent Fasting Stories.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's personal stories.  

Gin Stephens: It's personal stories. It's day to day stuff. It's nitty gritty of a life.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. Mine is all the random tangent rabbit holes into all the biohacking.  

Gin Stephens: I just think that's interesting.  

Melanie Avalon: We create a lot of good content.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but it's so different.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. But then it comes together here on this show.  

Gin Stephens: Yep. Well, good. Thank you, Andrea.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, thank you.  

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Sally and the subject is: “Best type meal to eat when breaking fast.” “I'm hearing protein/good fat meal is best when you're breaking your fast. Wonder why I'm being told that, and is there any validity to it? What are your responses knowing that Melanie likes paleo, so that kind of goes hand in hand, but Gin enjoys some carbs, including grains and starchy veg. So, do you really care? You just eat what you want? Or, is it beneficial to do something more intentional? And should the big meal be first within your window? Or, would you recommend maybe eating a handful of nuts as a start? And then maybe an hour later, have your bigger meal while in your window? Thanks.”  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, this is a great question from Sally. Something I'd like to clarify because people often say that to me, people think I don't eat carbs. I might eat more carbs than Gin every night.  

Gin Stephens: I don't know. I doubt it.  

Melanie Avalon: How many carbs do you think you eat?  

Gin Stephens: I mean, I don't count things. I just eat.  

Melanie Avalon: I eat pounds of fruit every night. So, there's a lot of carbs.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I do not eat pounds of anything.  

Melanie Avalon: So, I eat pounds of meat, pounds of cucumbers, and pounds of fruit.  

Gin Stephens: I just like eat a meal of food. I'm not eating individual ingredients, like separately. Last night, I ate a burger from local farmhouse burger, which is really good high-quality burger. I had grass-fed meat, I had a whole grain burger bun, I had really high-quality French fries. So, that's not my typical meal. I usually cook at home. But last night, I was just craving a burger, and we actually were talking about it. Did I talk about it on the podcast? We're recording two days back-to-back. So, did I mention that I wanted a good burger? I think I did.  

Melanie Avalon: You definitely did to me.  

Gin Stephens: I can't remember if I said it on the air. Well, anyway, spoiler alert, I had one. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: How was it?  

Gin Stephens: It was really good. It hit the spot. My body was craving that beef.  

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.  

Gin Stephens: It wasn't like pounds of anything, but it was a nice meal.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm just trying to see how many carbs, it probably equals out to.  

Gin Stephens: Like what you're eating? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: I just don't think of food as macros. I just think of food like-- I am sensitive to the idea that my body doesn't clear fat as well. So, I shouldn't load up on the fat. But I'm still going to, like, if I'm having bread and butter, I'm going to put butter on there till it's delicious. Not like a slab just to go crazy, but it's really good. Bread and butter are good together. So, I eat the food that makes me satisfied, and that tastes really good. I add olive oil to my vegetables, so that they roast well. It's part of the cooking process kind of a thing. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'll have to look it up later, but it's definitely a lot of carbs in the form of fruit. But as for her question, so the answer we always say, it's very individual. You have to find what works for you. I think a lot of the concern about needing to be super specific and careful when you “break” your fast is, in general, likely more applicable when you're breaking a much longer fast. So, like an extended fast, because there's just idea of slowly reintroducing foods. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. That is not every day what we're doing. I don't have to be careful at all. There are some people who have digestive upset even with a daily eating window. I mean there are. People have like a supersensitive system, and if they're not opening carefully, they experience dumping. We hear it a lot in the community. I didn't know if you had, but that really is something that happens to a small segment of the people, never happened to me.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it doesn't happen to me either. But as far as to break it with, so I think a reason people say, like protein and fat is because that will likely fill you up fast, if you're trying to not overeat or get satiety signals soon. Protein is often the macronutrient that really leads to satiety. There's the whole protein leverage hypothesis, which says that we will eat to get our protein needs. So, we'll keep eating in any given meal or situation until we get our protein needs. So, that might be a reason somebody might want to start with the protein, because they'll fill up faster. But it really is a matter of just what digests for you, what you like.  

For me, I would not want to start with something like that because that would really slow down my digestion. I do do a specific ordering to my food, and it's because with that order, that I had found that works for me. I digest it well, none of the food compounds slow down the other compounds because I tend to lean towards digestive issues, so I do have to be careful. I would just experiment and find what makes you feel good.  

Gin Stephens: Nuts make me queasy on an empty stomach. So, I absolutely would not start with a handful of nuts. That would be the wrong thing for me. I talk about how a lot of things don't bother me. Well, tea makes me queasy on an empty stomach and nuts make me queasy on an empty stomach. I also don't think protein and good fats on their own would feel good to me. That would probably also make me queasy on an empty stomach. 

Melanie Avalon: Make you queasy? 

Gin Stephens: Yes. My stomach needs starchy carbs.  

Melanie Avalon: That's funny, that settles my stomach. If I ever have an upset stomach, if I just eat a big hunk of protein- 

Gin Stephens: Oh, God, no. 

Melanie Avalon: -that will always settle my stomach.  

Gin Stephens: Nope, nope, no, opposite. When I was sick last week and not really hungry, I couldn't even look at me. I didn't want me, I wasn't interested in me. I was like, “Chad, you're in charge of your own dinner. I just can't.” I cannot eat any meat. I did eat eggs. Eggs sounded good. But it wasn't a big piece of meat. Like scrambled eggs, I was eating like egg sandwiches, that sort of thing. So, I was still getting protein that way. But I absolutely did not think I could eat meat. Which is why when I suddenly felt better, I was like, now I need a cheeseburger. Isn’t that interesting? 

Melanie Avalon: That's so interesting. If I ever have an upset stomach, or if I'm ever sick, the thing I will crave is just pure animal protein. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, and a grilled cheese sandwich. I always crave a grilled cheese sandwich. Grilled cheese sandwich and apparently egg sandwiches.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, we talked about that because I've never had an egg sandwich.  

Gin Stephens: So good. Scrambled eggs on bread. The whole moral of the story is, we're all very, very different with what makes you feel great. And you're just going to have to figure it out. The person who is telling you to eat a protein/good fat meal, probably that's what makes them feel the best. So, they're like, “Well, everyone should do that.” But that doesn't make it true. 

Melanie Avalon: I did have an experience though, like the different foods, if it has a big effect on you, you can really notice. For example, I, at my birthday dinner this past week, it was amazing. I was having wine and I had fish and mushrooms and everything was delicious, and I was feeling satiated. And then they brought out so many random things that most of them I didn't eat, but they did bring out this dessert plate. They told me what was gluten free and so there was a strawberry gummy bear thing. I was like, “It's my birthday. I'll just eat this.” So, I ate it. It was tiny. And it was so sweet, I ate it, after eating a full meal and then I was starving. It was such a good moment to experience just how much of an effect the foods can have. I went from being like completely full and fine, to starving from a tiny little gummy bear. 

Gin Stephens: That's so interesting. 

Melanie Avalon: Because it made my blood sugar drop. Reactive hypo, I'm guessing, or just like that craving from the sugar, like switching over to that mode.  

Gin Stephens: Today's episode is sponsored by Prep Dish. I want you to think through your day. What are the hectic daily moments you dread? For many of us, it's 5:00 PM when you realize the dinner hour has somehow snuck up on you again and you have no plan. Naturally, this is also the time young kiddos start losing it. Trying to throw together a healthy meal amidst that chaos is just plain hard. Even though my kids are grown, I remember those days well. Often, I would just hit the drive thru, again.  

Prep Dish is the best way for busy people to get healthy meals on the table without the stress. Subscribers receive an email every week with an organized grocery list and instructions for prepping meals ahead of time. This means dinnertime is super quick and easy every day. The best part, Prep Dish has weekly Super Fast Menus. This means, in addition to gluten free, paleo, and low carb or keto menus, subscribers now receive a new Super Fast Menu each and every week. These menus require only an hour to prep the week's food. And we're not talking boring pasta or plain chicken. Super Fast menus include items like shrimp tostadas, slow cooker sausage and kale soup and smothered mushroom chicken with mashed potatoes. The founder, Allison is offering listeners a free two-week trial to try it out. I mean, what's better than free? Nothing.  

Check out prepdish.com/ifpodcast for this amazing deal. Again, that's prepdish.com/ifpodcast for your first two weeks free. And now, back to the show.  

Melanie Avalon: Shall we move on to the next question?  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: So, this is a question from Paul. The subject is: “You guys.” Paul says, “How did you guys get to be so funny? [laughs] I don't think we're that funny. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I just realized that my zipper is down, so that's kind of funny. I'm fixing it now, sitting here with my zipper down.  

Melanie Avalon: You wear zippers? 

Gin Stephens: I'm wearing jeans. I wear jeans all the time.  

Melanie Avalon: I don't remember the last time I had a zipper, that was not addressed. He says, “Truth is, you brighten my day with your always upbeat conversation. Will you ever take your show on the road for some live tapings? And, of course, will you start with Boston?” Doubtful. 

Gin Stephens: That does sound fun, though, but we first have to meet.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. 

Gin Stephens: Atlanta is where we'll start.  

Melanie Avalon: So, this is just a little fun fact into podcasting. The setup for recording in the same room is drastically different from the setup-- 

Gin Stephens: That is true.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, for the setup, like right now, it would be a completely different setup.  

Gin Stephens: It's harder. When I was at the beach in August, I had to record two episodes of people live. And they were just not as good. I recorded one with my friend Michelle, she's amazing. I don't regret that we did that. I love that we did that. But sounds are different and trying to share the same microphone.  

Melanie Avalon: Did you share microphone?  

Gin Stephens: We did. I was just listening-- You sent me a podcast yesterday, I'm not going to say who it was, but I listened to it. And I noticed they had wacky quality of sound. 

Melanie Avalon: On both sides? 

Gin Stephens: Well, the host, the main guy, the one whose podcast it was. There was a beginning part and that part was really professional sound quality. And then the part where he was interviewing his guest, it sounded like he was like in his car or something, I don't know. Or maybe on his phone, it sounded like maybe he was on his phone, but I just thought that was interesting. So, I don't get real stressed out. The point of my story is, not to criticize someone else's podcast, but that it makes me feel better because I know that sometimes if I have a guest, the audio is not perfect, and I don't let that stress me out. That's my point.  

I was listening to this amazing podcast or who had great content, and I really enjoyed it. And thank you for sending it to me. I just noted that the audio wasn't amazing, and I didn't judge it. But it made me feel better about myself. That was why I told that story. [laughs] Anyway, it might not be perfect, but it's-- actually my director told me that when we were recording the Audiobook. She's like, “Podcasts can be recorded on the street, but for Audiobook, it has to be perfect.”  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's interesting. I have had a few requests on my other show to do it live. So, I remember when-- I haven't released this episode yet, but I did an episode on hyperbaric chambers. And I'm like friends adjacent with the guy, like he's a friend of a friend. He was like, “You should come down to my hyperbarics and we’ll record from the chamber.” I was like, “No.” [laughs] He was trying to convince me to do that for a month.  

Gin Stephens: Seriously, though, it doesn't have to be perfect. Just have some fun.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, so here's the other thing. And then I had Brad Kearns on recently, and we've become really good friends. And he's like, “We're going to do another one. We're going to do it live.” And I'm like, “No, no, no,” because here's the thing, with my other show, well, it might be different if it was more casual, like talking again with Brad. But, in general, I have so much prep work that, I need my notes, I need to not have the camera because they need to be like-- basically, I like have to be in my zone, as the way I perceive myself as a performer. If I was in real life with these guests, it would add a whole another aspect of me being aware of like what I look like. 

Gin Stephens: 100%, I get that, yep. People have been like, “Why don't you do a video of your podcast too, and then you could put it on YouTube, because so many people do.” Because I don't want to. I don't want to be on video while I'm recording with someone. I take notes while we're talking, I take notes what my guest is saying, and then I circle back to things, but I'm writing and I don't want to have to think about how my face looks. And do I look weird? Yeah, I get it.  

Melanie Avalon: Do you do video?  

Gin Stephens: Well, we can see each other while we're recording, yes.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay, but you don't want to air it. 

Gin Stephens: But we don't record it. We don't record the video. No, no, I've no desire to record that and air it. 

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. I'm that plus one step more. I don't even let the other guests see me because it would just take me out. I have so much going on in my head when I'm doing those shows. I can't-- It would really stress me out, too bad.  

Gin Stephens: I enjoy being able to see the person we like, we see each other. That's okay. Sometimes if we have weird internet, we'll have to turn off the video and I don't like it as much. I like to be able to see the person I'm talking to, but I don't want the world, I don't want to have to worry about it, because when I'm being recorded, sometimes someone will record me for a podcast and it'll be video and it just feels-- it feels like I have to be like on in a different way that I don't want to be. It's a different thing to think about.  

Melanie Avalon: I feel like most of the shows I go on, I don't seek out going on other podcasts, but if people invite me- 

Gin Stephens: Ditto, yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: -which is a good problem to have, because I know a lot of people would die to be on some of the shows I've been on, but most of them are video. And it is-- it is a completely different experience, but it's easier for me on video if I'm the one being interviewed because then I'm not-- I'm just answering the questions. 

Gin Stephens: That's true. Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: The one I did this week-- did I mention it on the show that I did one with Bill Tancer, New York Times bestselling author, but he's going to come on my show.  

Gin Stephens: I know you told me. I can't remember if you said it on the show.  

Melanie Avalon: It's funny. I could tell, especially interviewing with him, we were very similar. We were talking about this, we see the world kind in the same way and he understood right from the beginning, I told him, I didn't really want to do video if that was an option. He totally understood. So, I do appreciate that. I mean, obviously, my dream is still to have a talk show and that would be completely video. But that would be different.  

Gin Stephens: I wouldn't mind doing a Clean(ish) television show. Wouldn't that be fun?  

Melanie Avalon: I know. 

Gin Stephens: Like Marie Kondo came in and help people say goodbye to their things. I could go in and help people get Clean(ish) in their bathroom or in their makeup or their pantry.  

Melanie Avalon: Maybe I could produce your show.  

Gin Stephens: That would be fun. I think I would have fun with that because it's just me and regular people and here we are, and let me help you with this, and look at this product, can you believe it?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: I would do that. That would be fun. I love people. I love hanging out with people and talking to people and doing stuff with people.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, this is why I want like a talk show. I like people in a controlled setting, so I would want everything to be very controlled. 

Gin Stephens: I'm the opposite. I'm like, “Let's just see what happens.”  

Melanie Avalon: I want studio audience, I want the lineup, everything is very much on point. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: The people have the card that says 'applause' and everybody would applaud. 

Melanie Avalon: More so just the outline of where it's going to go in the segments, and we're going to do this at this point. And, yeah, I'll let the audience person handle the audience, but I would die to have a show with an audience. That would be so amazing because it would be doing the shows that we do now, but then I will get to interact in real time with people reacting to this stuff. Ah, it'd be so fun. Goals. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, Paul, thank you so much. I'm glad you think we're funny. Yeah, we get to do this for a job. That is so-- I can't believe it. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm super grateful.  

Gin Stephens: Me, too. I really love it.  

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. I really do. Now we have a question from Phoebe. The subject is: “IF and Weight Gain.” Phoebe says, “Hi, I first want to say how informative your podcast is. There is so much “bad science” out there. And I think it's great you're both espousing, so much reliable knowledge to your listeners. So, thank you for that. I started IF about two weeks ago, I found 16 hours tough in the beginning, but now I can get to 19 to 20 hours before wanting to eat again. I've been doing HIIT or strength training with small weights for about an hour each day. I feel great during the fast and I love waking up with a flat stomach. I had no issues switching over to clean fasting within the first week and only have black coffee and water in the day. My issue is I have not lost any weight, and instead I keep fluctuating around the same mark. Some days I eat more, and others less, I only really ever seem to go down on the scale if I drink wine the night before, but I don't know if that's due to dehydration. 

I'm 5’7” and 24 years old, but I've gained about 20 pounds about 10 during quarantine that I'm desperate to lose. I'm sensitive to dairy and I have digestion issues when I eat high fiber foods such as rye bread and bananas and also cruciferous vegetables. I can eat in very small doses and be fine, but too much, and I get stomach pains/gas/bloating. I don't know if I haven't given it enough time or if maybe I'm eating too much in these meals and I should calorie count. I really want IF to work and I'm sad at the lack of my own progress. I know, Gin, you say that I might be getting smaller/building muscle, but all of my jeans still tight. Do you think it's something to do with cortisol levels or water retention?” 

Gin Stephens: No. 

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] I know--I know Gin has been like dying this whole time. 

Gin Stephens: No. I do not. I do not think that’s it, Phoebe. Sorry. [gasping] Go ahead, keep going.  

Melanie Avalon: One more sentence-- One more sentence Gin. 

Gin Stephens: It's none of that, Phoebe. All right, go ahead.  

Melanie Avalon: “Would love your advice on the issue. Sorry for the giant mega essay. Phoebe.”  

Gin Stephens: I highlighted three words. 

Melanie Avalon: Can I guess what they are?  

Gin Stephens: Yep. 

Melanie Avalon: Two weeks ago. 

Gin Stephens: Yep. Those are the three-- those are the three words I highlighted. That's all you need to know, Phoebe. You just started two weeks ago, there's no diet plan of the world that is going to cause you to lose amazing amounts of fat quickly. You might go down really fast on the scale and certain diets you've done in the past, but we don't lose fat that quickly. But with intermittent fasting, we definitely do not lose weight quickly. It sounds to me you probably have not read Fast. Feast. Repeat. I would really recommend that you read that. Anyone who's starting out, is not just because I want to sell you a book, I promise. It's because I think it's valuable. If I just wanted to sell people book, Delay, Don't Deny, I could have just kept selling that one. I wrote Fast. Feast. Repeat. because I wanted a better book out there. I'm really proud of Fast. Feast. Repeat.  

I would recommend, if you're starting out, take the time to listen to Fast. Feast. Repeat. if you don't like to read, it's on Audible, I read it to you. I want you to start with the 28-Day Fast Start chapter. In that chapter, I'm very, very, very clear that you should not expect weight loss in the first 28 days. That's because your body is learning how to do something new. You're learning how to tap into your fat stores for fuel. So, you're like fasting during the day, then you're also working out in there, and then you're eating, and then your body's doing all these changes. A lot of things are going on behind the scenes. But what your body is probably not doing great yet, is burning fat and metabolically flexible, and all the magic that we want to have happen. So, I don't think that it's that you're building all this muscle and you've lost all this fat. I mean, it's only been two weeks.  

I also want to encourage you to read the Scale-Schmale chapter, that is a very, very, very important chapter. It talks about all the different ways that I want you to measure your progress. The scale is a tiny little piece of that, especially since you're doing high intensity interval training or strength training for an hour every day. That is going to lead to muscle building. I'm not saying that's what's happened already, because it's only been two weeks. But you are going to probably see body re-composition with the combination of fat burning once your body is adjusted. And then now you're doing this high intensity interval training and strength training, so you're going to be building muscle well. You're going to need to use a lot of different tools to measure your progress, and the scale is likely to be the least effective. Especially since you only have 20 pounds to lose, and you're young, you're 24 years old. So, you're probably going to be better at building muscle than someone who's my age.  

You're going to need to use things like progress photos, honesty pants, measurements. If you just are desperately staring at the scale, you're going to be really, really disappointed because you will probably find that you get down to your dream body, and you probably aren't going to see the actual number on the scale you think you need to see, because your body is going to change so much. But it's way too early to be stressing about that for now. You got to give it a long time. It might take you 20 weeks to get to your dream body. Like I said, it might not even be the number on the scale that you think it's going to be ever. You got to let go of that that number and instead focus on what your body does. And your clothes, your measurements, your progress photos, that is really the best way to judge it.  

I don't want you to be all worried about, “Oh, my gosh, I got to change everything because this isn't working.” Your body's doing what it's supposed to do. Just keep going. And don't be sad, because again, two weeks is not very long in the whole scheme of things.  

Melanie Avalon: I really have nothing to add to that, I think. [laughs] Our next question is actually similar about as far as like weight loss. So maybe we can see if there's any nuance to be added for Ashley's question. But, yes, hopefully, Phoebe, feel free to write back and report back if you are still having issues way down the road. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because that's really important. You really have to give it the long-term approach. And even if you are using the scale, it can be an important tool, but you still have to focus on your overall trend. I talk about and Fast. Feast. Repeat. why it's important to weigh daily if you're using the scale, and calculate your overall trend. There are apps that do that for you, like Happy Scale. I like to do an old school because that's just me. I wrote it on paper, got out my calculator, added it off, divided by seven. I even put it on a little graph by hand. There was just something pleasing and plotting it, that made me feel like, “Here I am. I'm plotting it on my graph.” Knowing the overall trend is really important. 

We have a question from Ashley, and the subject is: “Windows, Endurance, Sports, Leaning Out.” All right. She said, “First off, let me say that I love you ladies and feel like we are friends. I've never been into podcasts until I found you. My dad actually said, ‘You need to listen. They are like you.’” Oh, I love that your dad said that. I mean, your dad is listening. Hi, dad or Ashley’s dad. All right. She said, “And I've been hooked ever since. I'm an elementary school counselor and have been following a paleo/primal diet for seven to eight years. I began IF 16:8, not really knowing what it was, and only stopped for pregnancy with my twins. I had to eat to help my morning sickness. I just completed two marathons and run half marathons about four to five times a year. In addition, I teach group fitness class with high intensity interval training, weights, and cardio two to three times a week.” I still have hard time just saying HIIT. I think they say HIIT, right? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I always say H-I-I-T.  

Gin Stephens: She said, “Sorry for all the info, but I feel like it's helpful to have the background.” Yes, Ashley. We like the info, so thank you.” She said, “I currently alternate between a 16 to 24-hour window. I play around with what works for that day, with Sundays very relaxed. Here's my question. I'm looking for fat loss. Do I keep my window more consistent and pass the 18-hour or 20-hour mark always? Do I forego my paleo treats in my window? Do I focus on carbs? Please help and keep up the good work. Thanks so much, and keep on keeping on. Much love.”  

Melanie Avalon: Did she say how long she's been doing IF? 

Gin Stephens: Ah-huh. See, that's the thing. So, I have no idea.  

Melanie Avalon: I vote that we approach this like she's been doing it longer.  

Gin Stephens: Well, it sounds like she did it and then she got pregnant and stopped doing it. And then she started doing it again.  

Melanie Avalon: If it's the situation where she hasn't been doing it long, then she can apply the Phoebe answer. 

Gin Stephens: True.  

Melanie Avalon: We can answer this now for if it has been longer. First, I want to comment though, on the morning sickness. I have not aired the episode yet. I'm not sure when it's airing. But I interviewed Dr. Michael Platt. And he wrote a book called The Miracle of Bio-Identical Hormones. And he talks a lot about morning sickness and makes a huge case for supplemental progesterone to resolve that. I don't have any experience with morning sickness and pregnancy and progesterone. So, I can't speak to it personally. But for any listeners that are pregnant and experiencing that, that might be something to try. And I've been using this cream every night. I've been using progesterone for years. But I switched over to his cream and saw a huge, huge benefit. And then on top of that, my sister, I don't know, I might have shared this on the show already. But my sister had PMDD, which is basically the really intense diagnoseable form of PMS. And she's had it for like a decade, and she's tried so many things. She started taking the progesterone cream. And he says in his book, and I'm sorry, this is a tangent. He says in his book that it'll just go away.  

I told her about it, and she started taking it, and it just went away after 10 years. She was shocked. I was so happy. I was like he really makes it sound like this will resolve it and she's been dealing with this for so long. So, I will put a link in the show notes. I do have a discount code. Michael Platt is the brand. I think the code is MELANIEAVALON for discount. But that's just a resource for morning sickness. But back to the question. Ashley is doing a lot of activity. Just want to note that. Okay. Assuming you have weight to lose, because she doesn't-- 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, she sounds like she's trying to lose fat and she's maybe having trouble with that. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The important things to focus on is the diet that provides the nutrition that you need, especially when you're doing all of this exercise. All of the protein, all the nutrients, but is ultimately two things. One, supporting the fat burning state. Of course, with intermittent fasting, the fasting is creating that, but you can really tweak that even more by finding the dietary macros that your body burns very efficiently and lets you really go into the fastest state with no hunger and continue the fat burning mode. And then also, if it's-- fat loss is the goal, focusing on foods that really fill you up without adding a huge surplus of calories because a lot of people think, “Oh, I'm fasting, so it doesn't matter.” I'm not saying that you think this actually, but a lot of people might think that they're fasting, so it doesn't really matter the calories that they're eating. Again, we're not about counting calories. We already said we don't count calories. But choosing the type of foods that are not going to necessarily create a massive calorie surplus, especially calories that are easily stored can definitely have a huge effect on weight loss.  

Gin Stephens: Like what are paleo treats? She said, does she need to forego paleo treats. I don't know what that might even be because I've never tried to do paleo.  

Melanie Avalon: I don't know what that is. But a lot of paleo treats are often things like, nut butters and lots of nuts. 

Gin Stephens: Like very nutrient dense, but also calorically dense. 

Melanie Avalon: So in my book for example-- I'm just thinking about the recipes in my book. I have recipes for brownies made from avocado, like avocado brownies and cakes or things like that made from almond flours instead of normal flour. I do find that the-- It depends where they are, but the paleo treats can often be pretty high calorie. So, the point of all of that is, you can eat too many calories in your eating window, so that you don't lose fat in your fasting window. So, you can really choose where you want to focus and try different things because she also asked about, “Do I focus on carbs?” So, I do think if fat loss is the goal, looking at macros, to find the macros that work for you and experimenting is a really good way to go. Maybe low carb works for you. Maybe low fat works better. Maybe one works at one time, maybe one works at another time. But if trying a low version of either one, so either low carb or low fat can often work really well. If you are having those paleo treats, cutting those out can help really well. Ashley might not be eating this. It might not be in her “paleo protocol.” But just for people in general. If they're eating massive amounts of things like cheese.  

Especially after-- I already thought this already, but especially after reading Dr. Neal Barnard’s book, The Cheese Trap. I don't agree with everything that he says, but he does make a very big case for just how incredibly fattening cheese is. If you're eating massive amount, even, maybe not even massive amounts, but a lot of cheese in your window, that could really be stalling weight loss. I think nuts can often stall weight loss. But then also, she asks about like, does she need to actually change the window? Does it need to be consistent? Does it always need to be longer? What I would probably do, and I feel like I'm all over the place right now is, I would probably first find the window that you're liking, if a consistent window does work for you, and then if that's not working, I would tweak with the food choices. And I would really just go in the order of what feels right to you. So maybe it's trying to just cut out these treats, or maybe it's working on the macros. But, yes, things can be done. Oh, and focusing on protein. 

Gin Stephens: I would also be very cautious. If you're really, really doing a lot of physical activity, teaching group fitness classes, two to three times a week. I mean, you probably need a longer eating window, you need to fuel your body because we talk about how intermittent fasting is not a problem for women, but over restriction is. And if you're really hitting the gym hard, and restricting your diet, and intermittent fasting and pushing it more and more, that does turn into a state of over restriction. So, you just have to kind of find the balance, so that it isn't overly restrictive for your body. I just think that's really important. We've gotten to the point in society where we're like, “Well, let's just do more. Let's do more high intensity training. Let's have a longer fast.” Really, maybe you just need to, you did say Sundays are very relaxed, that's good. But that doesn't mean you need to just keep pushing it more every day necessarily, but I feel you already know, Ashley, because when you said, “Do I forego my paleo treats in my window?” I think that was you kind of knowing that might be it. 

There're some things that are really easy to eat. It might be something that's like perfectly on plan, but that doesn't mean that it's helping you with your fat loss goals. 

Melanie Avalon: This is just me personally. The thing I love about fasting and the eating window is, I don't ever want to restrict the quantity of the food I'm eating. I don't want to ever have to feel like I have to stop eating, and I'm not saying anybody has to do that. But when I focus on just whole foods, so I don't make these paleo treats. I don't eat nuts. I have been eating actually fat free cheese recently, I've been experimenting with that, but don't do high fat cheese or anything like that. If I eat the certain foods that I eat that are all whole foods, I really can just eat as much as I want it. It's going to support for me either like maintenance or weight loss. It doesn't really lead to weight gain. Whereas if I added in, at least for me personally, things like this, it could be made from the same substrates of “paleo foods,” but when they enter this more process form, it's a way to eat a lot of more processed calories really fast, and I might not be able to just eat unlimited amounts of that. So, yes. 

Gin Stephens: All right. That was a lot, but I felt like it was good.  

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. Winter aka sick season is upon us. And we all know that this is the time of year to take extra care to protect ourselves from germs and bacteria. Of course, you can do everything right, wash your hands, keep your hands away from your face, carry around some hand sanitizer, but you still get sick. That's why you need to protect your body from the inside, not just the out. And you can do that by building up your immune system with some high quality and high strength probiotics. That's why I'm really excited about P3-OM is a patented probiotic that might be the most effective probiotic ever developed.  

P3-OM fights bacteria and strengthens immunity. It's basically a germ fighting superhero. But it also helps digestion, speeds up metabolism and increases energy throughout the day, which is way more than you might have thought probiotics could do. And just when I thought P3-OM couldn't get any more powerful, I watched a video which you can see at p3om.com/ifpodcast of the probiotic literally breaking down a piece of steak. After I saw that, I was all in. You guys are going to be so amazed, too. Definitely check out that video. And here's some more awesome news.  

You can get 10% off P3-OM right now by going to p3om.com/ifpodcast and typing in the coupon code IFPODCAST10. And here's the thing, if you order it, and it's not everything you hoped for, BiOptimizers support team will give you all of your money back, no questions asked. So, if you want to protect yourself from whatever bug is floating around this year, and take your digestion to a new level, visit p3om.com/ifpodcast, to get a 10% discount with the coupon code IFPODCAST10. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.  

All right. So, now we have a question from Jennifer. The subject is: “Feeling Full.” Jennifer says, “Hi, Melanie and Gin. I love your podcast. A friend of mine suggested IF and she suggested that I tune in.” This is the second question where it was suggested by somebody. 

Gin Stephens: I know, I love that. 

Melanie Avalon: She says, “I'm so glad I did. I spent years yo-yo dieting and it was awful. I've been following 16:8 and I'm about a week in. I feel great already. I've been told for years by my doctor and herbalist that I'm insulin resistant, but I didn't want to accept that. I finally have the mindset that it's time to take control and feel better. Here's my question. I have noticed that during my eating window, I get very full very quickly. I've stopped eating and found myself super hungry during the fasting period. I clean fast. I don't want to force myself to keep eating during my eating window either when I feel so full. Suggestions, I want to get my nutrients in, but I don't want to overdo it. I'm eating very little carbs.  

Gin Stephens: All right so Jennifer, I'm going to give you the same advice I gave a few questions ago. And that is that you are still so very new. You are, what, one week in? You're not at the point yet where you're really tuned in to what's happening in your body. The whole idea of appetite correction, that's a term coined by Dr. Bert Herring. I talk about it in Fast. Feast. Repeat. So, if you've got Fast. Feast. Repeat., go to that chapter about appetite correction and read about it. I love the concept. Basically, the idea is that our bodies are born to know when we've had enough to eat so that we stop eating. All the animals in nature, they eat, they stop eating. You don't see obese lions out there. We only see that when animals are like human fed. We start feeding them the things they're not supposed to eat. We start feeding the ducks the bread and now the ducks are having problems. But as long as we leave the animals alone, they know what to eat and how much to eat without even counting a calorie. They just stop.  

The thing about intermittent fasting is, once your body adjusts, and you're tapping into your fat stores during the fast and you're feeding your body nutritious foods, during your eating window, you can reconnect with those natural hunger and satiety cues that your body has. It doesn't really help that you're eating real food though, because just like those ducks that overeat the bread because they're not really supposed to be eating that bread, but we're feeding it to them and they just keep eating it. Same with us. If we're not eating enough nutrients, then we're not going to hear that we've had enough to eat. But my point is that, your signals are all out of whack because you're still early on. So, give it some time. You’re going to be hungrier during the fast now in the early days, then you will after a body adjusts. So, just be patient with your body. Read the chapter again, like I said, on appetite correction.  

No, you do not want to force yourself to keep eating if you feel full. That is 100% true. But if you're really, really starving during your fast, that could just be the adjustment period and that's going to get better as you go.  

Melanie Avalon: That's such a good reframe. She was obviously thinking that the hunger was from the not eating enough, but it might just be the lack of adaptions. So, let's say she's down the road, and she's been doing IF for a few months, like it for anybody who had been down the road, and are still experiencing hunger. And if it is from not eating enough, what do you recommend in those situations?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean, that usually doesn't happen. Especially when she's got an eight-hour window, I would have a really hard time with the idea that she couldn't figure out how to eat enough food in an eight-hour window. You could put two meals in there and it works its way out usually after you're adjusted. This is not something that usually keeps coming up after someone's adjusted.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay, perfect. I think you answered that.  

Gin Stephens: All right.  

Melanie Avalon: So, we have one last question from Carla. The subject is: “Hormones.” Carla says, “I have heard that IF will help regulate--” She says she's not sure what the exact word is, but your hormones. “How long does this typically take? And how can you tell it is working? When I asked this question to an IF Facebook group, they couldn't answer it, and they just asked if I have insulin resistance? I have no clue. How do I know if I have insulin resistance? I'm so confused.” 

Gin Stephens: Well, this is a very broad question like, “Will IF help regulate your hormones?” The answer is maybe yes, maybe no, depends. It depends on which hormones. Now I totally understand why they asked if you have insulin resistance, because that is one hormone that intermittent fasting will help you regulate your insulin levels. When they asked you, “Do you have insulin resistance?” That was them saying, “Well, if the answer is yes, you have insulin resistance, then yes, intermittent fasting will help regulate that.”  

Hormones are such a broad topic in your body, you've got a lot of different hormones. You've got thyroid hormones, you've got metabolic hormones, you've got so many different-- female hormones. 

Melanie Avalon: Even vitamin D is a hormone. 

Gin Stephens: Right, we can't tell you how intermittent fasting is going to impact all those many things that are going on in your body because it's like a balancing act. One thing that happens over here and that changes something that's happening over there. Intermittent fasting does help get a lot of those things into balance, but it just really depends on what your underlying conditions are. We can't really say this is what IF is going to do because we can't know. It just depends on so many individual factors. So, if you don't know if you have insulin resistance, then maybe you don't. But if you're overweight, if you've been struggling with your weight for a while, you probably do. And if the answer is yes, you've been struggling with your weight for a while, then probably yes, intermittent fasting is going to help with that aspect hormonally, and help with your insulin resistance.  

Melanie Avalon: I think as far as-- Gin said it really well. Hormones, it is such a broad term. I think we do throw it around pretty casually a lot. I already earlier was talking about hormones with-- I mean, progesterone, and that whole world, that's all hormones. I think a reason that IF does in general-- help hormones in general is that a lot of the hormonal dysregulation today often does come from our diet. The foods that we're eating, eating constantly can encourage a lot of hormonal dysregulation. And so having this fasted period, it can regulate in a way or potentially help certain hormones, definitely on the insulin resistance front. That's this very specific area of hormones that's dealing specifically with insulin, which is a hormone that's involved with your fuel use and fuel storage.  

In the dietary aspect of hormones, it's most likely going to really help with that. But then beyond that, all the other hormones, the female hormones, I think in general it tends to help a lot of people, but it really depends on what is your personal hormonal issue as to how it's going to affect that or what it's going to do. So, it's a very broad question. You could work with a knowledgeable practitioner, though, if you wanted to check on some hormones, actually some different resources.  

For example, if you listen to the ad on today's show by InsideTracker, they test for example, some hormones. Not a ton of them, but I think they test. They look at certain blood markers that correlate to metabolic health and longevity. They test the test that they think you need to be testing to really get a picture of your metabolic health. So, they test DHEA, testosterone, and sex hormone binding globulin because they feel like those are the most important hormones to be testing for metabolic health. So, you could check out their panel if you'd like to look into that. And then beyond that, you could work with a physician who could do other hormonal tests, you could do a DUTCH test if you want to look at hormones specifically related to women and estrogen and estradiol. And that is something that you need to look at on a 24-hour. I think it's 24-hours that you do the test and it's a urine test. Insulin would be something that you could test, doctors don't test it that much, but you can ask for it. Your HOMA-IR would be testing your insulin and comparing it to your-- I think your blood glucose and that can give you a good marker of insulin resistance or insulin sensitivity. So, it's a whole world. I encourage you to work with somebody on it. But in general, I do think a lot of people experience hormonal benefits with fasting.  

Gin Stephens: Yep, absolutely. The thing that's so important for people to understand is, intermittent fasting is an amazing tool for help. But it's not the only tool and it doesn't fix everything.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.  

Gin Stephens: It also doesn't cause every problem that you might have. It isn't the cause of everything or the effect of everything or the fix of everything. It's a tool that's really useful, it will always be in my toolbox. But sometimes I need a different tool for a job. I got a hammer in there, but sometimes I need a screwdriver.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, exactly. I really think that phrase, “When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail,” is a really enlightening phrase, because so many people think when they're looking through a certain lens, they might think everything is one thing, so that fasting will fix everything or that all the problems are from fasting. But there's so much more beyond that.  

Gin Stephens: Exactly.  

Melanie Avalon: Alrighty. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode242. The show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we've talked about. And then you can also follow us on Instagram. I am @MelanieAvalon, and Gin is @GinStephens. Gin, I tagged you today in a photo, did you see that?  

Gin Stephens: Oh, okay. No, I didn't.  

Melanie Avalon: It's the flowers you sent from my birthday.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, I'll have to look. Well, good. I'm just not really on Instagram a lot. So, I'm trying to still decide. But I will definitely look and see the flowers. I'm looking right now. Oh, there they are. Oh, it looks all fancy.  

Melanie Avalon: See how they bloomed?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Do you see how they're huge? 

Gin Stephens: They are huge.  

Melanie Avalon: Because when I first sent you the picture, and I should have taken it so that it wasn't all the green ones because there's a lot of pink ones on the other side. When I first sent you the picture, they were closed up. Oh, by the way, random side note. You know how I told you my cucumbers died and I had to start over? 

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: Now they're growing again up the windows and today is the first day that a flower, like a massive flower. After this, I got to go pollinate them with my pollinator. Oh, man. I'm excited. 

Gin Stephens: Well, have fun.  

Melanie Avalon: I will and you have fun.  

Gin Stephens: All right, I will. 

Melanie Avalon: Actually, I guess, I'll talk to you after Thanksgiving, right?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. That's when we're recording next.  

Melanie Avalon: So, have a fabulous Thanksgiving.  

Gin Stephens: You too.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Bye.  

Gin Stephens: Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcast, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Nov 28

Episode 241: Fasting For Health, Minnesota Starvation Experiment, Glycemic Index, Red Meat Vs. White Meat, Grain Fed Vs. Grass-Fed Beef, Saturated Fat, Clean Beauty Products, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 241 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get FREE NY Strip steaks for a YEAR!

FEALS: Feals makes CBD oil which satisfies ALL of Melanie's stringent criteria: it's premium, full spectrum, organic, tested, pure CBD in MCT oil! It's delivered directly to your doorstep. CBD supports the body's natural cannabinoid system, and can address an array of issues, from sleep to stress to chronic pain, and more! Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

JOOVV: Like Intermittent Fasting, Red Light Therapy Can Benefit The Body On So Many Levels! It Literally Works On The Mitochondrial Level To Help Your Cells Generate More Energy! Red Light Can Help You Burn Fat (Including Targeted Fat Burning And Stubborn Fat!), Contour Your Body, Reduce Fine Lines And Wrinkles, Produce Collagen For Epic Skin, Support Muscle Recovery, Reduce Joint Pain And Inflammation, Combat Fatigue, Help You Sleep Better, Improve Mood, And So Much More!! These Devices Are Literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get FREE NY Strip steaks for a YEAR!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Stay Up To Date With All The News About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase Or Head Straight Over To avalonx.us To Place Your Order Now!

Listener Q&A: lynn - Best window for health benefits

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #115 - Valter Longo, Ph.D.

FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Ashley - Minnesota Starvation experiment

The Case for Keto: Rethinking Weight Control and the Science and Practice of Low-Carb/High-Fat Eating

Listener Q&A: rebecca - Eating red meat regularly

Sacred Cow: The Case for (Better) Meat: Why Well-Raised Meat Is Good for You and Good for the Planet

Episode 237: Our Taste For Sodium, Electrolytes, Low Carb Diets, Hydration & pH Balance, Fatigue & Muscle Cramps, Thermoregulation, Exercise, Sauna, Need Vs. Optimization, And More!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #57 - Robb Wolf

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A: Phoebe - Clean Beauty brands besides beautycounter

Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon Facebook Group

EWG’s Healthy Living App

Clean(ish): Eat (Mostly) Clean, Live (Mainly) Clean, and Unlock Your Body's Natural Ability to Self-Clean

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #77 - Dr. Jason Fung

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 241 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished New York strip steaks for a year. Yes, free steaks for a year. So, the holidays are upon us and I don't know about you, but when I think about holidays, I often think food and then the second thing I often think is, "Hmm, I wonder what will be the quality of all of the meat and seafood at all of the family gatherings." It can definitely seem intimidating and expensive to get high-quality meat that you can trust. Thankfully, there is an easy solution. 

It's a company I've been a fan of for years and that is ButcherBox. They are an incredible company that takes out the middleman of the grocery store to directly connect customers to farmers. They vet these farmers. They find the farmers that truly support the health of the animals, the environment, and ultimately your health so that you can finally get meat have the highest standards 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, wild-caught seafood, and more. And trust me, the seafood industry is sketchy. ButcherBox goes to great lengths for transparency and sustainability so you can truly feel good about what you're eating. I read Dr. Robert Lustig's book, Metabolical and was blown away by the shocking statistics of fraud in the seafood industry.  

But back to meat, ButcherBox's meat is delicious. Each box contains 8 to 14 pounds of meat depending on your box type. It's packed fresh and shipped frozen for your convenience. You can choose a curated box or customize it to get exactly what you want and it's shipped straight to your door, and it tastes delicious. The ButcherBox steaks are honestly some of the best steaks I've ever had in my entire life. My dad is a huge spaghetti fan and he remarked that the ground beef was the best ground beef he had ever had. My brother reported back about the pork chops and the bacon. Basically, this stuff is delicious. And this holiday, ButcherBox has an incredible deal. They have never done this before ever and it won't last forever. They're actually giving new members pre–New York strip steaks for a year. Until November 30th, 2021, you can get two delicious 100% grass-fed New York Strip steaks for free in every box for a year. Just go to butcherbox.com/if podcast to sign up. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to receive this limited time offer of free grass-fed, grass-finished New York strip steaks for a year. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. 

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare and makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. 

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combined the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show.  

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 241 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: Well, I am okay but so, so disappointed. As you know-- 

Melanie Avalon: Me too.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. The last time we recorded, we were going to be getting together in Atlanta. We've never met face to face still. But I had to not go to Atlanta because I got a little fever and I was like, "Well, team, should I still come to Atlanta if I have a fever?" They're like, "We can just record from your house." So, I'm recording from home instead of going to Atlanta and so we did not meet. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. I'm so sad. Listeners, I found the place we were going to go. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and I looked at the menu. It was going to be great. I will go to Atlanta, again. I know I will.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I want to tell you, Gin, Gin sent me very beautiful flowers but it's funny. I sent her picture and she was like, "They're supposed to look like this." She sent another picture where they looked more full in the picture. They have since opened up. So, now, they look like the picture that you sent. 

Gin Stephens: Were they already arranged or did you have to arrange them? 

Melanie Avalon: I did.  

Gin Stephens: See, it was supposed to be arranged. It did not work out. It was supposed to come already arranged from a florist.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, really? Did it say that in the notes? 

Gin Stephens: I mean that's what I ordered.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, okay. [laughs] Well, they were beautiful. Thank you. Lots of pink. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm sorry, you had to self-arrange your flowers. That's new. When you do one of those, it goes to just a local florist and then I guess they decide what to do.  

Melanie Avalon: Somebody else sent flowers from the same company in the same order in the same box and they weren't arranged either. Do you think those were supposed to be arranged? 

Gin Stephens: Well, that's weird. I don't know. But I've used this company for a long time and they've always gone to people arranged before.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, they were beautiful. Thank you.  

Gin Stephens: But you know, with the whole pandemic, who knows? Maybe business models have changed. So, I'm glad they were pretty. Happy, happy birthday. Sorry that we didn't get to celebrate in person. But you know, thank goodness for modern technology where I can just record from home which is probably working out better anyway, because I didn't want to be in a hotel for all those days and in a recording studio.  

Melanie Avalon: I think this happened last time. Remember last time you're going to come?  

Gin Stephens: Well, last time, I couldn't come because the world shut down. I wasn't sick but all the recording studios shut down because it was March of 2020. 

Melanie Avalon: Right.  

Gin Stephens: They're like, "Sorry, no one can travel anywhere in the entire world ever because of COVID." It was just because they just shut down everything. I tried to find a place here locally, at a local radio station, they're like, "Nope, we're not letting anyone in because of COVID." So, I just recorded from home. But you know, we have it all worked out because I did it once before. If it ever happens again, I'll just plan to record from home because it really is nice just to be at home.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Nice.  

Gin Stephens: I can do it. I can record professionally from home. So, it's really fun. I have a director, and there's an engineer, and we're all in there together, and the two ladies that are doing it with me are just delightful. We actually have a great time. As we're going through the book, they're like, "Okay, now, tell me more about that." [laughs] Lots of fun. 

Melanie Avalon: How much more do you have to record? 

Gin Stephens: Oh, my God, I'm never going to be finished. It feels like it's going to be forever. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I've done a lot of audiobooks on my own but for my book, I just recorded the intro and that took long enough. 

Gin Stephens: It takes hours. It's really intense.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it really is.  

Gin Stephens: I really don't enjoy it. I'm making the most of it. I'm enjoying the company, I'm enjoying the process as much as I can, but I can't wait for it to be over. All the words, I'm like, "Who wrote this book? Who put all this garbage in there?" They're like, "Oh, yeah, me. It was me. I wrote it." Like, "Why did I write it like that? I should have not used that word." [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm sure it will turn out fabulously. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I hope so. So, how was your birthday? 

Melanie Avalon: It was so good. I had a wonderful dinner at my favorite restaurant in Atlanta where I'd only actually been to the bar, I hadn't eaten there before. I went with the family, and it was just really, really amazing. Then, oh, can I tell the first thing that happened on my birthday?  

Gin Stephens: Sure.  

Melanie Avalon: It is so exciting and it's only going to be exciting for a segment of our audience. But, okay, Taylor Swift, as you know, for all of her albums, she releases a signed version on her store, and they sell out in minutes, like minutes, like you cannot get the signed version. It just so happens that when I woke up on my birthday-- I do this thing where I wake up and you're not supposed to do this, listeners, but the first thing I do when I wake up is I check my email, because I wake up very groggy and I find that if I check my email, then I'm like, "Oh, I'm awake." So, I find it to be very helpful. 

So, I checked my email. The first email I saw was from the Taylor Swift store announcing the signed CDs. I was like, "Oh, my goodness, I'm sure these are all gone. There's no way." I clicked on it. They were there. The email had just come in, and I'd just woken up, and I checked it. So, I got three of them. Then five minutes later, they were gone. But it was like, "Happy Birthday." 

Gin Stephens: Perfect birthday. First thing I do is check my email too. Who said you're not supposed to do that? 

Melanie Avalon: They say start your day off-- 

Gin Stephens: Who is they?  

Melanie Avalon: They say, oh, no. They're like starts you off in a state of cortisol rather than gratitude. But I think it just wakes me up. 

Gin Stephens: I've already been like resting, and I feel good, and so then, I just look at them. It doesn't stress me out.  

Melanie Avalon: I like checking my email.  

Gin Stephens: I think it would stress me out more not to check it. I'd be like, "What am I missing? What am I missing?" Then, I'd be all stressed out. Instead, it gives me a feeling of accomplishment like, "I just did all that," and then I get up about of bed. So, actually, they are not the boss of me or you. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it gives me a sense, because I can't address all the emails, but I can see what all is there. So, I can have a sense of like, "Okay, this is the task for the day." 

Gin Stephens: Yep, exactly. Yeah, it's the day started. I flagged things that I can't handle right at that moment. So, then I have flagged emails, then I go back to them later, but it puts that aside and then I can start my day. 

Melanie Avalon: It might also matter-- I love in general my emails. It's all things I want to be talking about. It's like talking to guests. It's with brands. It's very fun. It's not like a drag for me. So, it's not like it's I very much look forward to emailing people. So, can I make one quick announcement?  

Gin Stephens: Sure.  

Melanie Avalon: By the time this airs, for sure, I think the preorder special will have gone live last week, I think, for my serrapeptase. So, that's very exciting. If it's still available, you can get it now probably or preorder it now. I'm pretty sure-- because I was talking with my partner, I'm pretty sure it's going to be shipping pretty soon after the preorders. So, we thought it was going to be maybe January, but the turnaround has been pretty fast, and I think today that we're recording, not that this is released, I think I'm going to get my bottle of it because--  

Gin Stephens: I was going to ask if you had had any yet. 

Melanie Avalon: Scott at the company, he got his yesterday and he was sending me pictures, and he tried it for himself-- and oh, this is really exciting. So, it has an enteric coating, because serrapeptase, if you don't have a protective coating on the capsule to keep it from breaking down in the stomach, it'll break down before it reaches the small intestine where it needs to reach in order to get into the bloodstream. So, he did some tests where he was putting our serrapeptase in vinegar and then putting other competing brands in vinegar to see if they broke down or not. All the other brands broke down within like half an hour and ours was still good at the two-hour mark, which means it's definitely surviving the stomach, and then it'll open in the small intestine. They've tested it for the potency and the effectiveness because apparently enzymes die pretty easily. They'll become inactive. But this one is all good and it's tested for mold and heavy metals, and it has an MCT filler, no additives. Oh, I'm so excited. 

Gin Stephens: Very exciting. 

Melanie Avalon: So, friends, you can get it. Long, long, long story short, it's an enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. Now, it's created in a lab. That's why it's vegan. People were asking me how can it be vegan if it's created by a silkworm? It is grown in a lab. That is how. You take it in the fasted state it breaks down protein buildups in your body, problematic protein buildups. So, if you have allergies or inflammation, it can help that, it can break down fibroids, it can potentially reduce cholesterol, amyloid plaque which is involved in Alzheimer's. It's like a wonder supplement. So, you can probably order it now. The information for it is that melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase and the actual website to order is avalonx.com. And I'll put all that in the show notes.  

Gin Stephens: So fun. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I know. All right. So, shall we jump into everything for today? 

Gin Stephens: Yes. We have a question from Lynn and the subject is: "Best window for health benefits." Lynn says, "I am new to IF, and while I could see me lose a few pounds, I'm in good shape overall. No health issues to speak of, all blood work in normal range, and I work out with weights and cardio regularly. My goal, which leads to my question, is to gain optimal health from IF, not necessarily to lose weight. So, my question is what is or are the best fasting windows for optimal health gains whether that be gains in gut health, autophagy, insulin, etc.? What can I expect as a 53-year-old woman to gain from a 24-hour fast, 36-hour fast, 48-hour fast etc.? Is there a sweet spot of fasting that might be best for health gains? Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I love your podcasts. I listened to them all. No offense, Gin, but Melanie, I really enjoy your Biohacking Podcast." No offense taken Lynn. [laughs] I'm glad you love it. "For this podcast, I really enjoy it when you go on your tangents. I always learn something new. Wishing you both health and happiness. Lynn." 

Melanie Avalon: All right, Lynn, thank you for your question. I'm glad she likes the tangents. This is a really great question and I feel like with diet where I don't think there's one right diet for everybody, and it's very individual, and you have to find what works for you, I think the same goes for fasting. Also for diet, [giggles] I think the idea with diet for long-term health, I think it's more about what you do for life, the thing that you can maintain and do that is healthy compared to a crash diet or a crash healthy phase, and then reverting back to a standard diet. So, with fasting, I think is a foundation, finding the daily fasting window that works for you in that you get in "ample fasting." So, probably a minimum of 16 hours fasting every day. Then, the window-- I think if you can fast longer than that every day, I think that's fine. But if you're doing a 24-hour fast and that leads to an unhealthy relationship with food where you feel like you overeat or you feel that it's not sustainable, then I would say fast less. For some people, that might be great. I think the first part to answer the question is just the daily fasting window that works well for you-- Of course, there would be an approach. Some people do better with something like ADF, where they're not fasting every day. So, that might be the "daily maintenance approach" that you do and that would be where you'd be alternating. 

But then beyond that, like longer fasts, so 36-hour, fast, 48-hour fast, etc., I think those are concentrated endeavors that you might want to take occasionally to do some extra deep cleaning in a way. You can kind of think of fasting is your daily cleaning of the apartment or house, and then a longer fast might be like that time where you sit down to do a really deep clean. That said, I think you will get a fantastic epic health and never do a long fast. I don't think you have to do it to have incredible health benefits. But if it resonates with you and you want to do one, I also think that's fine. I don't want to be confusing to listeners. But I also don't have a problem with something like a fasting mimicking diet, which is Valter Longo's work. He has his version that you can buy or people do their own self constructed versions. You can google like D-I-Y-F-M-D. I'm not a doctor. I'm not endorsing that, but I'm saying that it's something you might want to do as well. That would be basically getting, according to his research, the effects of a long fasts or like a five day fast without completely water fasting for five days. 

Gin Stephens: It just sounds so much harder to me than having to eat that little bit of food. I cannot imagine it being easier than just fasting. 

Melanie Avalon: What's interesting is for me, a 48-hour fast, I think, it would be much easier for me, complete water fasting. Five days, I don't know if I could fast five days. Mostly with the sleep issue, I think if I did-- I haven't done FMD, but I wonder if I did it, where I had all of the stuff just at night, if I could do the five days. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it just sounds like a really miserable low-calorie diet. It doesn't sound like fasting at all 

Melanie Avalon: The benefits that you're getting, it's extremely low protein. So, you're really tapping into that autophagy. So, there's a lot of research on how it affects the immune system. Breaking down immune compounds-- I think most of his research is in rodents, but basically, breaking down immune compounds and as he says it can "reset" the immune system, and it might be like a level of autophagy that you wouldn't achieve otherwise. 

Gin Stephens: So, you're saying that by eating those small amounts of food, you're having more autophagy than if you just completely fasted? That doesn't make any sense. 

Melanie Avalon: No, no. Not more than if you just completely fasted.  

Gin Stephens: Right. See, that's my whole point. That's what I don't get. I understand his research showing that there are benefits to his fasting mimicking diet, mimicking fasting, but I cannot wrap my head around it being easier than actual fasting or even better than actual fasting. That's the part I cannot make sense. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think as far as easier, I think it'd be individual, some people would find it easier and some people wouldn't. As far as equivalent or better, I think it's possible depending on the individual, it might be equivalent. I think it's possible depending on an individual, for some, it might be better, for some, it might be worse. It's hard to know. Yeah, it's a lot of unknowns. Basically, it's something that people could try if they want. 

Gin Stephens: I do want to also say that personally, I always recommend, if you're going to fast more than 72 hours, you should be under medical supervision, just because you don't want to DIY it and get in over your head. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's great point. I'll put a link in the show notes. I have interviewed recently actually Dr. Valter Longo on the show that Lynn mentioned on the Biohacking Podcast. So, I'll put a link to that. But I said a lot, Gin.  

Gin Stephens: I think Lynn has such an interesting question. We really haven't seen a lot of this recently. Maybe because I left Facebook, I don't know. People in the community are less likely to-- I'm not sure. All the time in Facebook, I remember people would try to post this one graphic that was like, "Here's what happens when you fast." By the hour and it was like, "Here's what happens at x and y and art 24 and 36." Unfortunately, our body just isn't like that. We don't really have like, "Here's what happens at 24 on the dot and here's what happens at 36." It's going to be really highly individual, because it depends on your own metabolic flexibility, it depends on what you ate, so many factors. So, it's not like we can say, here is the amount of fasting that's right for you. We very often-- well, actually, every time, I think we emphasize that we can't really say that, because it just depends so much on personal factors like how big your appetite is.  

Like you said at the beginning, Melanie, whether you fast for 23 hours or 16 hours, it really just is going to depend on you. So, we can't give you a here's what a 53-year-old woman would gain from this particular fast or that particular fast. It's really all about being your own study of one and responding to how you feel over time in day to day. Some days, you're going to find that you feel great fasting longer, and other days, you're hungrier. I think for optimal health gains, your best fasting windows are the ones that feel good day after day. For me, that really looks like a flexible approach.  

I started off back in the day, Dr. Herring's Fast-5, which was a five hour daily eating window, and I was fairly rigid with that when I was first starting out. But over time, it had become very intuitive and learn to listen to my body. That's really I think where the optimal health comes in, in the listening to your body. One day I'm really busy and have a short window and the next day I'm like, "Man, I'm extra hungry. I need an eight-hour window today." That is really I think where the best health comes in. Learning to listen to your body, being responsive, knowing when you need a longer window and fasting longer when it feels right. I was just sick last week and I wasn't as hungry when I wasn't feeling great. So, I didn't eat very much. Then, when I got my appetite back, I ate more food. So, it's just a matter of again really being responsive to your body. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. We are on the same page.  

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Melanie Avalon: Now, we have a question from Ashley. The subject is: "Minnesota starvation experiment." And Ashley says, "Hello, Gin." So, this was directed at Gin. She says, "I absolutely love Fast. Feast. Repeat and I wish I had read it 10 years ago. I'm curious regarding why the subjects in the Minnesota starvation "failed," so to speak, and that they became obsessed with food and could not maintain a healthy weight loss? Is it simply a matter of extended eating window? I'm not fully convinced that the reason is based on the fact that their foods had high glycemic index. There are many, many people in this world with diets that are similar in nutritional makeup. Yet, they aren't all necessarily obsessive with food, nor do most of them have weight problems. I would greatly appreciate your insight." 

Gin Stephens: Yep. Thank you for asking, Ashley. Yeah, at no point, did anyone, me, or any of the things that I've read have any comments about their failure being related to the high glycemic index. You can go ahead and put that out of your mind. I've never read an interpretation of their failure as having anything to do with the glycemic index. I'm not even sure if the glycemic index had been created at that point, honestly. The reason that they "failed" had to do with their bodies perceived that they were starving. They were eating very low amounts of food. They were doing a typical low-calorie diet, where they were eating a little bit here and there. They were eating small amounts of calories over the day. So, they never really were tapping into their fat stores like you would during the fast. So, they were not fasting. Obviously, they were eating but they were eating a very low-calorie diet. So, their bodies slowed things down, their metabolisms got slower, they started to have problems with their hunger hormones going out of whack. 

You may want to read that section again in Fast. Feast. Repeat, this is the teacher in me, because if you read it, again, I think, it's pretty clearly explained. So, whatever chapter that said, I guess, it's in the introduction. But basically, it's the classic what we've all been through and also the Biggest Loser study showed the same thing. When we do a really low-calorie diet, our bodies fight back. How is fasting different? Fasting is different, because we are metabolically flexible once we adapt to the clean fast, we are fasting. Our insulin is low, we tap into our fat stores, we're actually well fueled during the fast because we're tapped into our fat stores. So, our bodies don't see that we need to slow down. All I know is anybody who's done a low-calorie traditional diet, and struggled, struggled, struggled, knows what I'm talking about. When you fast clean, it is like night and day difference. I could never maintain a low-calorie diet long term. I always failed and struggled. But I've been doing intermittent fasting with no problems since 2014. It's just a completely different way of fueling your body. Did that make sense, Melanie?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I have some thoughts about it. I'm super curious. I interviewed Gary Taubes and his newest book is called The Case for Keto. But he talks about how people are on protein-sparing modified fasts, which are severely restricted diets, much more so than the Minnesota starvation experiment, which was-- I was just looking at it, 1,560. Yeah, 1,560 calories per day. Like a PSMF, protein-sparing modified fast. Sometimes, that's like 500 calories per day. I remember he said, what was interesting and one of the studies on it was that, when people follow PSMF, they didn't experience hunger. So, if they had that diet, but then if they added to it just a little bit of carbs, then they would be like ravenously hungry, which is really fascinating. Basically, being in a certain state due to the dietary choices and the calorie restriction was likely putting them in a state of ketosis, so they weren't hungry because they were living off of their body fat stores. But then, when you add in these carbs that mess with the mechanisms, then all of a sudden, they get hungry. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, they were eating just enough to keep them out of ketosis, so they were lethargic, and draggy, and-- yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Few things I wonder like, because she was mentioning the high glycemic. So, they were eating-- I mean they're basically just eating carbs. They're eating potatoes, rutabagas, turnips, bread, and macaroni. I'm super curious if they've been eating keto, like if they've been eating 1,560 calories of keto, would they have been starving? I would posit that maybe they wouldn't have been. It sounds like they are basically on-- basically, if you wanted to create a diet, a calorie restricted diet to I think, make somebody starving, you would want to give them calorie restricted, but like you just said, Gin, not so severely calorie restricted that they're inevitably going to enter ketosis because there's just such severe restriction. So, it's enough to keep them pretty much in the fed state and then all from carbs to boot. So, they're basically just living from carb to carb. 

Gin Stephens: And so, they were lethargic, and draggy, and never felt good. Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: That's the setup. This has not occurred, because I know you and I have discussed this before in the show, but this hadn't occurred to me before, Gin, until just now. I bet also, this was 1945. So, the obesity epidemic was not what it is today. I imagine these people coming into the experiment, even if they did the same experiment today with the same "baseline" state of people, I imagine these people probably had lower body fat to begin with. So, that could have played a role too.  

Gin Stephens: They started out leaner just because that's how people were back in the 40s. 

Melanie Avalon: I really think they could set it up the same way and they would make it look like the same way, because it would be a not an underweight BMI. But I think people were just leaner then. So, even a not underweight BMI, it probably was just a basically different cohort. 

Gin Stephens: Different variables.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: The key thing is that they were not allowed to eat until they were satisfied. Because at the end of what Ashley said, she's like, "There are many, many people in the world with diets that are similar in nutritional makeup, and yet they aren't necessarily obsessive with food." The key is that people who follow a diet where they're allowed to eat until they're satisfied, that's a very different case. These are artificially constructed from eating, like they were kept from eating the amount of food that their bodies wanted, and also their physical activity was increased as well. So, it was like the perfect storm of eat less, move more while never allowing them to-- if they'd actually fasted, how would it have been different? So, of course, we can't go back because that's not the test that they did. That's not the experiment.  

Melanie Avalon: Yep, this is interesting. Actually, yesterday, I was interviewed-- This is always so surreal to me, Gin. There's this guy named Bill Tancer. He's a New York Times bestselling author, and he actually has a CGM company, and he'd reached out to me because he wanted to work with me on some stuff. He invited me onto his podcast. It was so fun because it's so like weird to me because he had read my book. He actually read my book like all of it, and with asking me specific questions about it. It's very surreal to me still to like, "Oh, a New York Times bestselling author reads my book and wants to ask me questions about it specifically?" So, it was really fun. But the reason I'm bringing it up was, one of the things he asked me about from the book was, I discussed in the book, so, it was the 2015 personalized nutrition by prediction of glycemic responses, and this is something that I know Gin and I discussed this study on the show before, but I reread it because he had mentioned that he wanted to talk about it. I was like, "Oh, I better reread it."  

It's the one where they put people on CGM, it was 800 people, and they measured their responses to a total of 46,898 meals. They didn't just look at the CGM, the blood sugar response, they also looked at the gut microbiome, they looked at their blood markers, their activity levels, a lot of other factors, and this was the one where they found that-- and I'm bringing it up because she was mentioning-- We're talking about the glycemic index. Basically, it dismantled the idea of the glycemic index, because people had completely different responses to all different foods. So, while there was a trend, so when you put all the foods on a chart and see in general which ones create a higher glycemic response, it does match up with a glycemic index. There's still massive variability.  

Gin Stephens: Do you know how they came up with the glycemic index? They tested 10 people from, the food and averaged it. That is like, it's ridiculous. It is ri-diculous. Yeah, the glycemic index is just-- it would be like if we gave everyone a height index and said, "All right, you are 5'5" because that's the average height for a woman, 5'5". So, you're 5'5". You'd be like, "But I'm not 5'5", I'm 5'2." They're like, "I'm sorry, but we averaged the height together. You are 5'5"." That is how they did the glycemic index. Everyone's 5'5". 

Melanie Avalon: That's really funny. Yeah, and so they did find that within the individual, people react similarly. So, if you have a piece of bread on one day and then piece of bread on another day, you're probably going to react the same, but another person might react completely differently to bread. Actually, I think there was some comment in the study about how every single food, I think, had almost the entire span of responses. So, I mean, that's--  

Gin Stephens: It really is astonishing. For example, ice cream was one of the foods they talked about. They said that some people reacted really poorly to ice cream, some reacted really well. You're like, "Well, that sounds nuts." I am someone who reacts really well to ice cream and I can eat ice cream and feel great. I can open my window with ice cream. Ice cream does not give me a weird, whatever. Cake, different. Totally different. But it's fascinating. I can eat bread, no problem. But cookies? No. So, it really is just different. 

Melanie Avalon: And it likely involves-- like they say in this study, it's so many factors, not just the food.  

Gin Stephens: Yep. Potatoes, they are great for my body. I can eat a potato and feel perfect. But not everybody can.  

Melanie Avalon: That's just something to keep in mind.  

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Rebecca. The subject is: "Eating red meat regularly." "Hi, Gin and Melanie. First, I just want to quickly say that I cannot thank you both enough for completely changing my life. I've been IFing for two years, and it has improved my life in so many ways. Not only did I lose 67 pounds, but I've also seen major improvements in my mental health, my relationship with food, and my body, and the chronic pain I have from a previous injury. So, I just want you to know that you ladies are truly helping people and making a difference in so many lives by putting this important information out in the world. You two are amazing and I will be forever grateful." Oh, thank you, Rebecca. 67 pounds that is amazing. 

"All right. Okay, on to my question. As you know, there is a pretty widespread stigma against red meat. Most people or doctors think it is detrimental to your health and should not be eating frequently. They say, it will cause cancer, heart disease, type 2 diabetes, etc. So, of course, these scary thoughts are always in the back of my mind. I now exclusively get all my meat from ButcherBox. Thank you for the rec, by the way. So, I know the meat I am consuming is high quality. Over the past year, my beef consumption has significantly increased to the point that it has become a staple in my diet. I eat mainly whole foods and try to focus on fruits, vegetables, and meats but I don't restrict any particular food or food group. However, I find myself no longer gravitating towards chicken or fish, never really was a fan of pork, which means that pretty much all of the meat I consume is now ButcherBox beef. I'm definitely eating at least a few servings of red meat five to six days of the week.  

Is this really bad for my health? Should I start to force myself to eat different types of protein even though, it's not really what I want or crave? I've tried googling whether this is okay and pretty much everything that comes up says no. But the articles are almost always referring to conventionally farmed or processed red meat. I know there are tons of studies that show eating lots of red meat and processed meat can cause a variety of health issues. But what about grass-fed, grass-finished beef? Are there the same increased health risks from eating that too? I feel good doing what I'm doing but I would change it if it meant that I was harming my body. What do you think about this topic? I'd love to hear your thoughts because I really value your input. Sending positive vibes your way. Rebecca." 

Melanie Avalon: All right, Rebecca. Well, this was a fantastic question and I'm so happy that you're enjoying ButcherBox and I promise I did not plan this. ButcherBox is actually a sponsor on this episode and I just checked the offer they have right now is for grass-fed, grass-finished steaks for free. So, that's perfect. If you want those, if you want to join Rebecca, listen to the ad in this episode for ButcherBox. The link is butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and that will give you the offer right now is free New York strip steaks for a year, which they've never actually done that before. So, that's huge and those are grass fed, grass finished, but again, details are in the ad that runs on this show. So, for your question, I have so many thoughts. I think about this so much. 

Gin Stephens: I knew that you would.  

Melanie Avalon: First of all, I will just put it out there. I do think it is very important when you are contemplating a topic, especially related to health, to take in all different perspectives on the topic. It's very easy to get into an echo chamber. That said, I think one of the issues that can make this convoluted and confusing for people is that the two sides to approach on this, if we want to look at warring sides, it would be the pro-meat and then it would be the anti-meat. One of the issues is I think there is especially in a lot of the vegan literature or vegan voices, there's a morality clause that comes in where I think sometimes things get lost in the practical science, the health implications that I think often lead to more of a bias. So, I think that's really important to keep in mind when you are reading all the different perspectives because I do think you should read all the different perspectives. 

All of that said, the best source of information I have found that I do not believe is biased that I think has been so helpful is Robb Wolf's book Sacred Cow. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. We recently had Robb on this show, but that was an episode all on electrolytes. I'll put a link to it anyways, but we didn't talk about this. But I've had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast twice. Actually, his second episode with me aired yesterday. But my first episode I did with him was all about this. So, I'll put a link to that as well. What I really liked about his book and what I learned in it is, he talks about the health benefits and the huge importance of the role of meat in our diets for health. I do think some people can thrive on a vegan diet. I think it's a very small percentage of people. It's the people who have the gut microbiome that can really handle that and can really create all the nutrition that they need. Most people's gut microbiomes aren't up to par for that and I don't know that dietary choices alone given your state can convert you to a microbiome that would long term subsist on that. So, basically, I do think nutrition wise that there's a huge important role for meat in most people's diets.  

When it comes down to the actual type of meat, red meat versus fish versus chicken, Robb actually talks about this in his book the environmental impacts. I know she wasn't really asked me about the environmental impacts but he does talk about the environmental impacts of these different animals and dismantles some of the myths surrounding that about what is actually more sustainable. I do a lot of research on the different meats and how they affect our body. I do think, though, Rebecca, what your intuition about gravitating to what you are craving or what speaks to you is probably really telling, and I think, especially if you're not following-- because I think when we follow a processed diet or standard American diet, it can be harder to discern what our bodies actually need. But when you follow a more whole foods based diet that it can be easier to really hear your body signals about which protein source your body needs at that time.  

I think, especially with red meat, it's something where people might need more of it at sometimes rather than other times. Especially women, they might be craving it because of the iron content and women often can become anemic. I mean men can too, but it's more common with women. If you're feeling good on the red meat and you're not craving chicken or fish, I wouldn't stress about it. I wouldn't try to convince yourself into eating not red meat, and chicken, and fish because you think that's what you "should" be eating. Especially, if you're eating this grass fed, grass finished, sustainably raised from ButcherBox that one of the things about ButcherBox is so amazing is they work really hard to support the sustainability and the health of the farmers, of the farming system, of our planet. It's just really, really wonderful what they're doing.  

All of that said, to make things a little bit more complicated, I personally believe there is an incredible benefit nutrition wise to grass fed, grass finished over conventional beef. That said, Robb Wolf makes the case in Sacred Cow that there's not much difference at all, that the nutrition is actually pretty similar and that there's not a huge difference there. I do wonder a lot about the role of toxins in conventional agriculture. I think that might be playing a big role.  

Gin Stephens: 100%, I agree with you. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm really hesitant about that aspect of it. He doesn't seem to think it's that big of a deal in the book, but I think it probably is. So, my takeaway is that the best of the best is obviously the grass-fed, grass-finished beef. I think it's giving you nutrition and I would not succumb to the pressure to think that you don't have to eat it or that you need to eat white meat instead. 

Gin Stephens: That's so interesting that he says that because I just read the part of the book for Clean(ish) where I talk about grass-fed, grass-finished beef and why it matters. I just read it yesterday, I think. Cows are not supposed to have grain. Their bodies are not designed to digest it, it makes them unhealthy. Then, they have to have all that medicine, because they're now sick from eating the grain. There's no part of that that is good, except that the beef tastes great. It's like fattier, but it's huge. I can't understand how he looked into all that and came to the conclusion that it didn't matter.  

Melanie Avalon: I don't think it was so much that it 100% didn't matter but it was like in the grand scheme of things just from a pure nutrition standpoint that there wasn't that much of a difference and I'd have to reread. 

Gin Stephens: Well, it does have a better-- I think, a more favorable omega profile? 

Melanie Avalon: That's something I've been saying historically, and I say it in my book, and I believe it. His thoughts on it are that it's not that big of a difference. If you're looking at it for omegas, it's not a huge difference, it's not a huge source comparatively to something like the fish side of things. 

Gin Stephens: I guess, the real issue really, really is that because the cows are sick, because they're not fed in a way that their bodies are meant to be eating, they're eating the grains, their stomach is not designed to process those grains, so they have to have all the medication, the antibiotics, and then that residue is in the meat. 

Melanie Avalon: That's what I'm very concerned about. Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: I mean it's huge. That is a huge factor. Do we want to get antibiotic residues from our meat? No.  

Melanie Avalon: I personally think, it's huge.  

Gin Stephens: I do, too. I've really come across to this thinking. I didn't used to think it mattered as much till I really looked into it. The more I looked into it, the more I realized it mattered. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I asked him about this. I'm going to have to revisit the transcript and see what his response was to that specifically. That's why I just really, really love something like ButcherBox, for example because they're really addressing this issue. Also, I think, a lot of the demonization of meat is about things like saturated fat and stuff like that. I just want to put out there because I'm haunted by the saturated fat question, actually. I do think a huge part of the studies and the literature on saturated fat and its health benefits are two things. One, it's looking at saturated fat as an isolated mechanism of action rather than in the context of an entire diet. So, how does saturated fatty acids on a cell affect insulin sensitivity or how does fatty acid levels in the bloodstream affect things, and then saying that's automatically the same, it's like the saturated fat that you eat, there's also the whole history of why saturated fat became demonized for heart disease and things like that, and it goes back to Ancel Keys, and there's a lot of controversy around his research, and was there cherry picking? 

I think there's a lot of debate. I do think there are probably issues for a lot of people with saturated fat, especially too much saturated fat, especially today's-- Oh, that was it. I think saturated fat in the context of a processed diet, or a high carb diet, or a modern diet is a problem. But in a holistic, whole foods based diet, I think it's much less of a problem, if it even is a problem. So, I said a lot, Gin. 

Gin Stephens: You did say a lot. I was just going to say, Rebecca, trust yourself. I have also gravitated really away from chicken because I just realized I don't love it, or crave it, or really want it. But beef, when I want to eat beef, I really am-- Now, I'm craving it right now. I'm pretty sure there's going to be beef in my day today. [laughs] And after, I'm like, "Ooh, I just really need some beef." So, listen to your body. You're getting in tune with your body, and how you feel when you eat certain foods, and I think your body is boss. 

Melanie Avalon: A lot of this goes back to a study that was sensationalized in the media about the WHO's carcinogenic classification of various meats, and red meat, and processed meat. If you look at actually what was found in the study and the risk factors, it was grossly misinterpreted by the media. Because the headlines were things like, "Red meat is the same as smoking every day" or something like that.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I remember those.  

Gin Stephens: It's just that's not what it found at all. Processed meat was a problem, red meat was like-- I have to look at it again. It was a higher level than the other meats but when you looked at the actual meaning of interpreting the stats in the data, it was not at all what it was made out to be. So, that is something to keep in mind. I think pretty sure Robb talks about that in Sacred Cow, pretty sure Gary talks about it in Case for Keto. I'll put links to all of that but that was a lot.  

Hi, friends. Okay, we have thrilling news about Joovv. They have new devices and we have a discount. Yes, a discount, no longer a free gift, a discount. As you guys know, there are a few non-negotiables in my personal daily routine. I focus on what and when I eat every single day. And I also focus on my daily dose of healthy light through Joovv’s red light therapy devices. Guys, I use my Joovv all the time. Red light therapy is one of the most effective health modalities you can use in your home. I've personally seen so many health benefits, I find it incredible for regulating my circadian rhythm, helping my mood, boosting my thyroid, smoothing my skin, and I've also used it on multiple occasions for targeted pain relief. Anyone who's familiar with red light therapy, pretty much knows that Joovv is the leading brand. They pioneered this technology, and they were the first ones to isolate red and near-infrared light and make it accessible and affordable for in-home use. Since then, they've remained the most innovative, forward-thinking light therapy brands out there. 

And we're so excited because Joovv just launched their next generation of devices. And they've made huge upgrades to what was already a really incredible system. Their new devices are sleeker, they're up to 25% lighter, and they all have the same power that we've come to expect from them. They've also intensified their coverage area, so you can stand as much as three times further away from the device and still get the recommended dosage. They've also upgraded the setup for the new devices with quick easy mounting options, so your new Joovv can fit just about any space. 

And the new devices include some pretty cool new features, things like their Recovery Plus mode, which utilizes pulsing technology to give yourselves an extra boost to recovery from a tough workout with rejuvenating near-infrared light. And this is my personal favorite update. For those of us who like to use do devices to wind down at night, they now have an ambient mode that creates a calming lower intensity of light at night. Guys, I am so excited about this. Using this light at night is way healthier than bright blue light from all of our screens, and much more in line with your circadian rhythm. I was using my current Joovv devices at night anyway to light my whole apartment, so this new ambient mode is really going to be a game changer for me. Of course, you still get the world-class customer service from your helpful, friendly Joovv team. 

If you're looking for a new Joovv device for your home, we have some very exciting news. You can go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code, IFPODCAST. You'll get an exclusive discount on Joovv’s newest devices. Yes, discount, I said it. That's J-O-O-V-V dotcom, forward slash, I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. Exclusions apply, and this is for a limited time only. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show. 

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Phoebe. The subject is "Clean beauty brands" and she says, "Hi, both. I have been listening to your podcast since March of 2020 at the beginning of lockdown. I feel I have learnt so much over the past year and a half." I love the word 'learnt.' It's very British. 

Melanie Avalon: Do we say learnt? 

Gin Stephens: We say learned. Learned. They say learnt. She said, "I have a question on clean beauty. Having heard both of your rave reviews about Beautycounter, I am desperate to use their products. However, I am based in London, England, and they don't have any stockists here, nor do they ship internationally. I know you've said that Europe has stricter rules on banning chemicals but a lot of the brands I have seen on sale in Whole Foods and similar health stores have compounds in them that are ranked poorly in the EWG Healthy Living app. Could you please recommend any comparable internationally available brands for beauty products and makeup? Thank you in advance for all you do. I look forward to your podcasts every week. Kind regards. Phoebe." 

Melanie Avalon: All right, Phoebe. This is a great question. So, I will put a resource out for you. You can join my Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare Facebook group. That will be a great place to talk about this because we have a lot of members now. I think we have almost 2,000 members. People share a lot of reviews, and thoughts, and there are a lot of international people. So, that'd be a great place to discuss it there. Because I'm not personally familiar with any brands that are up to Beautycounter standard. It sounds like this is what you're doing already. You're looking things up on the EWG but that would be the resource to use for sure. So, for listeners, the EWG, they basically look at all of the ingredients and products and they rank them for toxicity so you can see how potentially toxic are your products on the shelves. 

The thing that is so amazing about Beautycounter, for example is, you can look at the toxicity. So, that's one thing. But then beyond that, there are things like heavy metals, for example, and that's huge, huge, huge to me, and that's not going to be something that's going to be on the EWG. Like lipstick, for example, there's this one study that they did, I think it was in the-- I don't know how long ago it was. It was a few years ago, but they looked at so many makeup brands. It was like hundred something and every single one had lead in it, and most of them had really high levels, and that's something that you're not even going to see on the EWG. So, an amazing thing about Beautycounter they test everything six times for heavy metals. So, that's huge. I don't know if there are any international brands that do that as well but your best bet, I guess would be continuing to look on the EWG and trying to find things that are that are rated green. I'm sorry though that Beatycounter is not available internationally. I'm hoping someday that they will. Right now, it's just the US and Canada. I feel like it was not very helpful. But yeah, my resources are to keep looking on the EWG, and to join my Facebook group, and ask there. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think that's great. Yeah, the EWG Healthy Living app is a great resource but I don't know about clean beauty brands in Europe either or England.  

Melanie Avalon: It is true though about the higher standard. It also just speaks to the sad state of the US with all this because Europe has banned thousands of compounds in conventional skincare and makeup because they can be endocrine disruptors, meaning they mess with your hormones or obesogens, which actually literally cause your body to store and gain weight, and even carcinogens which are linked to cancer, and the US has only been at around a dozen, which is just really shocking. Then on top of that, there's essentially no regulations. So, even if there were products on the shelves that were found to be actually toxic, and this has happened. It happened, I don't remember when, but there was this whole thing where there were these products at Claire's that were found to be tainted with I think-- it was asbestos tainted with something, and nothing was done about it. There's really no regulation. It's really shocking. But yes, Europe does have stricter standards. So, that is nice because that will be a little bit on your side. 

Gin Stephens: Yep, and all this is also in Clean(ish) which is available for preorder. So, [laughs] if you haven't preordered it yet, go ahead and preorder it wherever books are sold. But yeah, I talk all about clean beauty and why it's so important, and about grass-fed, grass-finished beef, and all the things. So, I can't wait for you to get a copy of the book, Melanie.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know. Do I get one soon?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. We've got to get you on the list. We've got to get you-- Yep, yep. We got to get you a copy. I would like you to get a better copy. Right now, they're sending out the early reader copies and it's the ones with the typos and stuff.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay.  

Gin Stephens: Can you wait till actual the real book comes out or do you want an early reader copy? I could get you an early reader copy now. Not till February, right?  

Melanie Avalon: I think so.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you've got time.  

Melanie Avalon: Can I get it by January?  

Gin Stephens: Or, January 4th is when it comes out.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Perfect.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Yay, anyway, all this is in there and why it matters, and how you can develop your own definition of Clean(ish) so that you change up what feels right to you. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I feel like we've come so far. We're on similar wavelengths about all the things. 

Gin Stephens: Well, it's true. The more you learn about it, the better you feel. The more changes you make, you realize it matters. 

Melanie Avalon: The more I study hormones, I've been interviewing a lot of hormone doctors recently, those are just signals affecting everything in our body, and the factors that affect them, it's our environment and our lifestyle. I mean it's our food, obviously, and you can help them with fasting but when you're exposing your body to compounds every day that are messing with your hormones, I just think the effects are just so not appreciated. 

Gin Stephens: The part that was so striking to me is how different the world is now than it was 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, because basically, our body burdens are just so much greater. We didn't have all this decades ago. So, we're starting off with a worse-- babies are born with all these chemicals and their cord blood. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Ladies, if you're going to have children someday, when you give birth, a huge part of your toxic burden goes into the baby. I was actually listening to an interview this week, and they were talking about how one of the problems with these compounds is that the problem is actually that they're not so toxic that they outright cause cancer right away. If they did, they wouldn't be there. But they're not so toxic that they kill yourself right away, but it's that slow, accumulating damage. 

Gin Stephens: Right. They bioaccumulate and they also work together in ways that are unexpected and not even understood because they don't study these chemicals together. They studied a little bit in isolation, like if you just had this, and "Oh, it's fine." But that's not the real world, that's not your body. It ends up being a toxic soup. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so cancer-causing compounds, there are not things that are so toxic that they just kill a cell because if that was the case you wouldn't get the cancer. Because in a way, they would get rid of themselves, because they would just kill whatever they're killing and be gone, but the fact that our cells can still survive in their presence, it's like a slow draining, it forces ourselves to adapt. That's what when I interviewed Dr. Jason Fung. He was saying, that's what makes carcinogens carcinogens is that they damage the cells just enough that the cells have to go rogue and form their own metabolism, their own state. They get very selfish in a way. So, in order to survive in the face of these carcinogens, they have to just basically defy living in a happy relationship with the rest of your body cells, and that's basically what cancer is. That was such a mind-blowing moment for me. 

Gin Stephens: Wow. Yeah. But anyway, we put less in. So, clean beauty, you're putting less in, you are lowering your toxic load, and that is why it matters. You don't have to freak out because you're going to go through life and get exposed to things, but you can control a lot of things and just taking control of what you can and letting go of what you can't.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I love that. Yep. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. You can follow me on Instagram, have a blue check? 

Gin Stephens: I do not.  

Melanie Avalon: But you will probably soon, I'm assuming.  

Gin Stephens: I don’t know. I'm not even trying.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, in any case, we're both on Instagram. I'm @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's show, super helpful because we mentioned so many things, those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode241. Yeah, you can get all the stuff that we like and ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. All right, I think that is all of the things.  

Gin Stephens: Absolutely.  

Melanie Avalon: Anything from you, Gin, before we go?  

Gin Stephens: No, I think that was it.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been wonderful and I will talk to you next week. 

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Nov 21

Episode 240: Moving To Maintenance Mode, Brain Health, Alzheimer’s, Suppository Supplements, Cheese, Veganism, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 240 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get FREE NY Strip steaks for a YEAR!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get FREE NY Strip steaks for a YEAR!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Stay Up To Date With All The News And Pre-Order Info About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase!

Listener Q&A: Jennifer - Goal Weight

Listener Q&A: Andrea - Health Benefits

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #108 - Dean & Ayesha Sherzai

The End of Alzheimer's: The First Program to Prevent and Reverse Cognitive Decline

Go To joinzoe.com And Get 10% Off The Zoe Program With The Coupon Code Melanieavalon10

Listener Q&A: Paula -  Melatonin and so many other Qs

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #12 - Dr. John Lieurance

Use The Code MELANIEAVALON At MelanieAvalon.Com/SleepRemedy For 10% Off!!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 240 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

 

Hi friends I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished New York strip steaks for a year. Yes, free steaks for a year. So, the holidays are upon us and I don't know about you, but when I think about holidays, I often think food and then the second thing I often think is, "Hmm, I wonder what will be the quality of all of the meat and seafood at all of the family gatherings." It can definitely seem intimidating and expensive to get high quality meat that you can trust. Thankfully, there is an easy solution. It's a company I've been a fan of for years and that is ButcherBox. They are an incredible company that takes out the middleman of the grocery store to directly connect customers to farmers. They vet these farmers, they find the farmers that truly support the health of the animals, the environment, and ultimately your health, so that you can finally get meat of the highest standards 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free range organic chicken, wild caught seafood, and more. And trust me, the seafood industry is sketchy. ButcherBox goes to great lengths for transparency and sustainability, so you can truly feel good about what you're eating. I read Dr. Robert Lustig's book, Metabolical and was blown away by the shocking statistics of fraud in the seafood industry. 

 

But back to meat, ButcherBox' meat is delicious. Each box contains eight to 14 pounds of meat depending on your box type. It's packed fresh and shipped frozen for your convenience. You can choose a curated box or customize it to get exactly what you want, and its shipped straight to your door, and it tastes delicious. The ButcherBox steaks are honestly some of the best steaks I've ever had in my entire life. My dad is a huge spaghetti fan and he remarked that the ground beef was the best ground beef he had ever had. My brother reported back about the porkchops and the bacon. Basically, this stuff is delicious. And this holiday, ButcherBox has an incredible deal. They have never done this before ever and it won't last forever. They're actually giving new members free New York strip steaks for a year until November 30th, 2021, you can get two delicious 100% grass-fed New York strip steaks for free in every box for a year. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to sign up. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to receive this limited time offer of free grass-fed, grass-finished New York strip steaks for a year. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. And one more thing before we jump in. 

 

Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

 

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often test high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 240 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens. 

 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. 

 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin? 

 

Gin Stephens: I'm doing all right. I have a little bit of a cold. So, I'm drinking my hot water and trying not to cough. 

 

Melanie Avalon: So, oh, first of all, I'm sorry. You have a cold. That is never fun. Although, it's appropriate. The weather changed, just kind of a cliche. It got cold and then you got a cold. 

 

Gin Stephens: It sure did. It absolutely got cold. You know how I feel about that? 

 

Melanie Avalon: I love it. I was so happy. I'm like prancing around outside. It's only been cold a few days and I've already gotten the comments of, "Aren't you cold?" I'm like. "Oh, yes, I am. But I love it." Because I wear the same like summer clothes. 

 

Gin Stephens: Okay, that's hilarious. Not me. Not me. [laughs]  

 

Melanie Avalon: Are you going to modify your fasting window for your cold? 

 

Gin Stephens: No. If anything, I might fast a little more.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Is this a hungry cold or not hungry cold? 

 

Gin Stephens: It's not a hungry cold. No. Chad was like "Do you want some orange juice and I was like, no, my window is not open. I don't want to start with orange juice right now." I don't feel that bad. I'm just tired. I have no energy. It's like just very low energy.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, I hope you feel better.  

 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, well, thank you. I don't get sick very often. So, it's so weird. It always surprises me. I'm like, "What's happening? Why is this happening?" But I usually kick it pretty fast.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Well. I will send 'kick it fast' vibes to you. 

 

Gin Stephens: Thank you. I have to read my audio book next week in Atlanta. So, I cannot have a weird voice. So, I've got two days to get completely better. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I hope you get completely better because I really want to meet you. 

 

Gin Stephens: I know. We're going to meet. That's so exciting.  

 

Melanie Avalon: So, for listeners, this was a complete coincidence that Gin just happens to be in Atlanta over my birthday. What are the odds? I've been researching where you're staying Gin and I found some fun places. 

 

Gin Stephens: Oh, good. Yay. It's near Emory. I do know that.  

 

Melanie Avalon: You're going to be in Decatur, right?  

 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. But it's near Emory. I looked at the map and there was Emory University was--looked close. 

 

Melanie Avalon: I think so. Yeah. And if we do meet on a Monday, there's one place I really want to go. It's on like the list of like best restaurants in Atlanta and it's always on that list.  

 

Gin Stephens: Oh, well. I like the sound of that.  

 

Melanie Avalon: But it's not open on Mondays. But there're two other really, really cool places that are open on Mondays. They would have wine, and food, and a bar. So, this might happen assuming you feel better. 

 

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm going to feel better because I'm willing it to happen. Did I tell you I'm doing better with wine all of a sudden?  

 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? No.  

 

Gin Stephens: Like my sleep has gotten better. I don't know what it is. Maybe, it's the BiOptimizers magnesium finally kicking in. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice. Very nice. That's exciting.  

 

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

 

Melanie Avalon: I had an exciting moment.  

 

Gin Stephens: What was your exciting moment?  

 

Melanie Avalon: On Halloween, while not taking part in festivities, I actually was doing bowel prep because I had a PillCam. 

 

Gin Stephens: That was not what I was expecting that to go. [laughs] On Halloween, it was not the festivities that bowel prep came out of nowhere. I'm like, "Pom, pom, pom." 

 

Melanie Avalon: I do. Because I did a PillCam on Monday. I had to be up early. So, I had to do a laxative prep. The modern world we live in, it's so crazy like swallowing a camera. But in any case, so, I was on my couch lamenting my Halloween activities, and was just looking at Instagram, and then realized, I'm verified. 

 

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I saw that. Yep. Very exciting. So exciting. Congratulations. 

 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. I feel like I've come so far. Like just the other day, I was still scared of Instagram, but now, I'm scared with a blue check. 

 

Gin Stephens: Awesome. [laughs]  

 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so happy. So, best Halloween ever. 

 

Gin Stephens: I'm debating Instagram. Like I'm trying to decide--  

 

Melanie Avalon: You're debating if you want to do it.  

 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, there's like, like what am I trying to do there? I went to this conference in Arizona and I went to a session about upping your Instagram game, and people pay people to help them do it, and they were talking about engagement scores and whatever. I'm like, "Do I really want to do all that?" I don't know.  

 

Melanie Avalon: I have an Instagram manager. Did you know that? 

 

Gin Stephens: I did know that. You told me. That just doesn't feel like me. I don't know. But everybody's doing it, but it doesn't feel like me. So, I'm like, I'm on the fence. 

 

Melanie Avalon: I feel maybe you should get my manager. Because he could like-- he could help you. 

 

Gin Stephens: But see, I don't know if I want to. That's my thing. I left Facebook and I'm also going to just reject Instagram and just be like, "That is not for me." I love that you're verified. I don't want to put a sculpture on that. Because I know that's exciting. I'm not trying to wah, wah that. It's very exciting. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. It's funny. We're just always complete opposites. 

 

Gin Stephens: Well, we are. I'm just trying to figure out, I like to just share on Instagram, "Here's my cat." I said that before, but I'm not kidding. I don't have to think about it. 

 

Melanie Avalon: For me it's really helpful for my audience. All the content I generate, it's really important vessel for my personal platform. 

 

Gin Stephens: And that is-- you just nailed it. I don't know that I want to generate content for an audience. Does that make sense? That's what I'm struggling with. Do I want to generate content for an audience? I was reading something, when we were moving our platform, again, from the one to the new-new platform. We looked at several, and one of them, Mighty Networks. We did not go with Mighty Networks, but they sent out something I'm on their email list now, and it was talking about growing an audience versus growing a community, and that gave me a moment of clarity. I'm not saying that one is bad and one is good. I'm absolutely not saying that growing an audience is a bad thing to do or that everyone should be growing a community. But when I read that, I was, "That just feels like me." You know what I mean? I like leaving Facebook for example. I had an audience of almost 500,000 people on Facebook. But I was, "I'm out of here," and that sounds crazy. 

 

Melanie Avalon: I definitely think mindset community.  

 

Gin Stephens: Right. I get it.  

 

Melanie Avalon: People in the audience become part of the community if they want to. 

 

Gin Stephens: I'm not trying to come across as it's bad, because it's not. But I'm just trying to force myself into it and it doesn't feel authentic to me. Does that make sense? I'm trying so hard to like, I went to that session. I'm like, "I got t up my Instagram game." Then I'm like, "Wait, why? It doesn't resonate with me." It's an awesome platform. I mean, I know that. 

 

Melanie Avalon: One of the things that makes me feel alive is creating content. So, it's doing what I love engaging with the community. It's everything that I love minus I can't stand selfies and I'm very insecure. 

  

Gin Stephens: Well, you're doing great at those. I think that you just nailed it. I don't want to create content. I just want to talk to people. I just want to troubleshoot, and talk to them, and how you're doing, and what you do. I don't want to create content. That feels like stress to me. The whole idea that I have to create content and post it in a special way makes me feel freaked out. 

 

Melanie Avalon: So, if you had a manager, he could create content for you based on the content you're creating. So, you're creating episodes right now, you're already creating content. If you had a manager, he could create snippets from that.  

 

Gin Stephens: Turn that content. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. He could turn that content into content, and then you could just get on casually because you both get on it. You could still get on it. You could interact with comments, and you could do what you like to do, which is interacting with the community, and you can still post about your cats. I'm not trying to convince you into it.  

 

Gin Stephens: A happy medium.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. If you wanted to do it, I think there's a way you could do it that wouldn't be taxing or stressful, but it would allow your part of the community that exists on Instagram to be able to connect with you there. 

 

Gin Stephens: Okay. Because I know there is. I know there are definitely people on Instagram that I enjoy connecting with, but it's just the idea. I don't have to think about it. Like, "Here's my dinner, here's my screen porch, here's the beach, here's the starfish," those types of things. That's not content anybody needs. That's just-- [crosstalk]  

 

Melanie Avalon: Well, the thing is-- the thing is, I think people like Instagram because it is like a snapshot into your daily life. So, you can have on the one hand the content that's the content that we just mentioned. So, fasting related stuff or stuff from your show, so people would tune in to your Instagram for that. But then the cool thing about Instagram is that, I just said, it's your daily life. The stuff that you just mentioned like people who like you, people who follow you because they're so interested in you. That's what they want to see is like--  

 

Gin Stephens: Like what you're doing?  

 

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. 

 

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm really proud of you, excited, that was a goal and you accomplished it, and it's huge, and it's hard to do. 

 

Melanie Avalon: It's really hard to do. I've had so many people reach out to me and be like, "How did you do this?" I'm saying like, "I've been Trying to do it for so long." I'm very grateful. It makes me really happy. [giggles] Can I tell you one other really quick story before we jump in?  

 

Gin Stephens: Absolutely.  

 

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited because I've been dying to interview Dom D'Agostino. He's the ketone guy, researcher, and I've been dying to interview him for so long. So, one of my friends, actually, a guest from the show has been saying that he would introduce me to Dom for like months, but he never did. Then, I was talking to another friend from my other show, when I say the show, it's the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, I was talking to another friend from it, and he randomly brought up Dom, and I told him I was, "Oh, I've been really wanting to interview Dom." He's like, "Oh, I'll introduce you." 

 

So, then, the next day, at the almost the exact same time like an hour apart, both of them emailed Dom about me. It was almost the exact same email. It was, "Dom, I want you to meet my friend, Melanie Avalon. She's an amazing podcaster. You should be on her show." So, he got hit with both of those emails back-to-back. He's probably, "Why is everybody throwing Melanie Avalon at me?" But point is, he's coming on the show now.  

 

Gin Stephens: Yay. Well, congratulations. I know you'll enjoy that. Lots to celebrate. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, if anybody has questions specifically about ketones, he is the ketone guy. So, feel free to email those. Then one more announcement I want to make before we jump in. So, when this comes out, I think my supplement-- my serrapeptase supplement will have, I think, it'll be in pre-orders. I'm trying to finalize the date right now, but it's probably going to be mid-November that the pre-order went live. So, I'm like debating what links I should put out there. It probably will be available for sale if the pre-orders are not sold out, because I anticipate, I don't know, I think they might sell out pretty fast. If you haven't pre-ordered yet, go to avalonx.com That's A-V-A-L-O-N-X dotcom, and you should be able to pre-order or order there. And you can also get on my email list for it. That's melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase. S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. And that is going to be the ongoing email list for information. So, you can get on that. 

 

But long story short, a lot of our audience take serrapeptase, and it's an enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. You take it in a fasted state, it goes into your bloodstream, it breaks down residual protein buildups that your body might be reacting to. So, it can help you with things like inflammation and allergies. Studies have shown that it can reduce cholesterol, and there's even been studies on it reducing amyloid plaque, and fibroids, and it's just really, really cool. So, November is like my month. Verified, birthday, supplement.  

 

Gin Stephens: So exciting. So much to celebrate.  

 

Melanie Avalon: That's just all about me. But how are you besides being sick? 

 

Gin Stephens: You gave me some Instagram coaching. So, that was good.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, true, true, true.  

 

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Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to get things started, we have a question from Jennifer. The subject is: 'goal weight.' Jennifer says, "Hi, ladies. I've been doing IF 16:8 for about four and a half months now. It has been such a great lifestyle for me, easy to do, and it's brought me many benefits. Over that time, I have lost 20 pounds and I am now within two pounds of my goal weight. I love listening to your podcast, it's great to have a reliable source of info. So, I thought I would turn to you with my question. How do I move to maintenance when I reach my goal? Do I just open my window a bit more? If so, what increments would you recommend and how long do you think I should remain at that new window while monitoring my weight to see if I continue to lose, maintain, or start to gain? I appreciate your time and expertise," Jennifer. 

 

Gin Stephens: All right. That's a great question. I remember, 2009, I was struggling with my weight and I was doing some crazy diet. I think it was the HCG diet. I was almost at my goal and my stepmother said, I was like, "I'm almost at my goal. So exciting. I'll be there." She said, "Yeah, but it's not the losing the tart. It's the maintaining." I was like, "Wah, wah." [laughs] such a downer thing to hear. But Jennifer, intermittent fasting is not like that. It's so much easier to maintain with intermittent fasting. So, as far as moving to maintenance, your body is really going to decide when you're at maintenance. Your goal is to have a window that feels good where you're eating until you're satisfied, and that might still be the same window you're doing right now.  

 

If you're doing 16:8, and it feels great for you, I wouldn't have a longer window than eight hours, probably. You may find that your body actually continues to refine itself over time and get a little smaller, like you might still burn a little fat, but you might also be hungrier. So, that's what happened for me. When my body decided that it didn't want to lose any more fat, it ramped up my appetite a little bit. I know it sounds all wacky to say that you'll just know, but you will. If you're a little hungrier, eat a little bit more that day, and just really listen to your body. But it's just like riding a bike every day. You just ride that bike every day and there you go.  

 

Now, if you had a shorter window than 16:8, maybe you were doing something like 21:3. I might say, "Hey, loosen up that window a little bit." But for 16:8, I feel like I wouldn't change a thing there. As far as monitoring your weight, I would adjust what you do in your window versus changing that window, since it's a 16:8. Does that make sense, Melanie? 

 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, 100%. Yeah. I was just reflecting on my approach to intermittent fasting ever since I started which was forever ago. When did I start, 2010? I should have had a decade anniversary. I did a one meal a day from day one. I never really changed that. I think the thing that I did change was in the beginning, I was actively making sure that I fasted a minimum amount of hours, and then, as I became more comfortable with it, I just embraced a general evening window without counting anything. But what you just said, Gin about looking at what you're eating rather than the fasting window per se, that's what resonates with me.  

 

The interesting thing is, I didn't do it, and I encourage other people as well not to do it based on some arbitrary goal number. So, it's not like I'm doing my fasting window. I'm doing my eating and then when I hit this number, boom. I'm in maintenance and now, I'm not losing anymore. 

 

Gin Stephens: You want to stay at that number, right? There's not going to be a magic number. It's going to be more of like a maintenance range. It might even be a five-pound range. You might already be in it. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. If you think about it, so, your body doesn't think in terms of a scale number. So, let's say you're going to this special number and you're doing a certain window, and you're eating a certain way, and then you hit that number. Your body's not like, "Oh, I hit this number. Now, I need to change around to maintain this number." I think it should always be intuitive. You can just keep eating the way you're eating. It might be that you don't even have to change anything. That's very likely that a lot of people find that they just naturally, their body reaches a new weight that it's happy at, and then, you just maintain at that weight without having to consciously make any decisions. What's interesting is, because it could go two ways. It could go where people find that they actually are losing too much weight maybe, and then, what they need to do is actually intuitively eat more. Or, it can be this opposite, where you're maintaining, and you're trying to not gain back the weight. But I think from our experience, that's not as common if you're in an intuitive relationship with how you're eating and your window.  

 

Gin Stephens: It's basically not necessarily what you think it is. Because every other "diet," that's really how it was. You got to a goal, then you had to stay at that goal, and it was all about that number. But intermittent fasting is so different and you'll really see once you just start intuitively, living at maintenance. It just is so different than anything else. If you start having window creep and your honesty pants get a little tight, your window needs to get a little tighter for a while. It's really easy for me to do that over the years. I've certainly gone up and down within a range. Of course, I don't weigh and haven't weighed for years. So, for me, I don't know what the numbers doing. But my honesty pants tell me, when my jeans get a little tight, I know it's time to tighten up my window. So, it'll happen. Don't be afraid of it and don't be afraid if your pants do get tight. That doesn't mean you failed anything. It just means, "All right, time to get a little back to it." 

 

Melanie Avalon: I think that question too, Jennifer, I pulled it from-- I think it's a really old question. But we have a list of questions from listeners since, I mean, for years. So, this question might have been a few years old. But I feel like we haven't addressed that in a while. 

 

Gin Stephens: No, we haven't. So, that was a great question. Who knows what Jennifer is doing now? She may be at her goal and maintained it for three years. If so, Jennifer, if that sounds like you, write back in and say, "Yes, I wrote that three years ago, and I've been maintaining," and [laughs] we would love to hear.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Please do.  

 

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Andrea and the subject is 'health benefits.' She says, "Hey, girls. So happy with this way of life. I started in May 2021 and quickly lost the weight I wanted. Above and beyond that, I had this other list of health concerns that was nagging me. Aches and pains, inflammation, aging/longevity, and HGH, just human growth hormone/hormones to name a few. And IF was the answer for that list as well. It's an explosion of wins." I love that, by the way.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. 

 

Gin Stephens: "An explosion of wins." I just had to say it again. "Through the education of your books and podcast, I've learned that IF is a beneficial lifestyle for preventing Alzheimer's through fasting/autophagy, is MADF, and that's Modified Alternate Daily Fasting," and that's like when you do alternate daily fasting with instead of a full fast like for 36 hours, you have that 500-calorie meal on the down day, people have started calling that Modified Alternate Daily Fasting. They're technically, it's just alternate daily fasting. Some of the Facebook moderators are irritated by the addition of the M because we called it just ADF forever. Because the people who researched it, just called it ADF forever, and then all of a sudden, the M came in, I'm not really sure. Anyway, that's what that is if anybody sees it. I'm not irritated by it, but it's just funny.  

 

MADF is when you have the 500-calorie meal on a down day, and then "regular ADF" would be if you have a full fast. But technically, they both can be considered ADF. But MADF always means 500-calorie meal. All right, so she says, "Is MADF i.e., 5:2 a better strategy for brain health." And technically, MADF wouldn't mean 5:2 necessarily. True ADF is every other day. But 4:3 and 5:2 are in that ADF umbrella because you're having down days and up days. Probably, a lot of people don't do real 5:2 because real 5:2 is having two down days and five up days. So, it's like five days of "eating normally" and then two, if you're doing regular 5:2 the way it was written originally, you'd have 500-calorie days. It's like 5:2 originally was 500-calorie days. So, that's not modified. That was just how it was. Or you could do two full fasts and then five eat regularly days. But for people who have been doing intermittent fasting for a while, I can't imagine having five "regular eating days" in a week. Can you Melanie?  

 

Melanie Avalon: Not at all.  

 

Gin Stephens: Not at all. So, anyway, I usually don't stop in the middle of a question and start answering things, but I had to really get into that MADF. All right. So, she says, "Is MADF, a better strategy for brain health? What else should I consider? Dietary approach, ZOE, anything from the stuff We Like list? In addition, please recommend any books, podcasts, etc., forever fasting," Andrea. I love that too, Andrea. Forever fasting explosion of wins. When we say is something "a better strategy for brain health," I always like to look what the experts do. You know, Mark Mattson is one of the top brain experts who also knows about intermittent fasting, and he studies the neurological benefits of fasting. Guess what approach he uses? Daily eating window. So, that says a lot to me. Sometimes, we think that, "Well, in order to get super-duper fabulous health benefits, we got to push ourselves and do more and more fasting." Well, when the number one neurological benefit expert of fasting, he has a daily eating window, that says a lot to me.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I think that is very, very telling. Yeah, just with the history of ADF I think it is such a thing, because it's a thing. Wow. I'm being very scientific right now. That is easy to study, it's a setup that can be looked at with all of the studies they do in the research. I think it has a lot to do with just the history of how the research has been done in the data more so than practically what might be the best. But sorry, just a side note, I hope you're feeling better when we do get to me because I was just laughing thinking about conversations we might have while having wine with you like [laughs] explosions of wins and forever fasting and I can't wait to see you in person. So, Andrea, oh, Andrea, Andrea, what do you say? 

 

Gin Stephens: Most of the time, it's Andrea. Like around here but I don't know. I mean, it could be anything. But Andrea is what I would just automatically say, but there's a lot of ways you could pronounce it. I had one student one time. She had a crazy name. Not that Andrea is a crazy name, it's not. But this girl had a crazy name and she like-- I was like, "How do you say it?" Then she said it and then, another day, she's like, "You said my name wrong." I'm like, "Okay. How is it?" She said it a different way than she said the first time. Another student said, "That is not how you said it before." She looked [giggles] I'm like, "She's right. That is not how you said it before." She was a third grader. She was trying out the different ways. Anyway, [laughs] forgive us, Andrea, if that's wrong. 

 

Melanie Avalon: So, Alzheimer's. I have a lot of thoughts on it. I actually have an episode 'you are looking for resources.' I interviewed the Sherzai's. You're talking about names are hard to pronounce. Their names are Dr. Dean and I think, it's Ayesha Sherzai. But they are the head actually of the, I'm not sure the exact title. I think, it's like the Alzheimer's or the dementia school at Loma Linda or Institute. So, their books are The Alzheimer's Solution and then their newest book is The 30-Day Alzheimer's Solution, which is kind of an abbreviated form and more of like a meal plan. But I did an interview with them. So, if you go to melanieavalon.com/alzheimers, that might be something to listen to. We dive deep, deep, deep into Alzheimer's, the causes of it, they are huge proponents, and obviously, I'm a supporter of the idea that diet can largely be preventative for Alzheimer's.  

 

I will say they are vegan and that is their approach to it. But regardless of if you're vegan or not, and if that resonates with or if you even agree with that or not the conversation, they were very, very welcoming and open to my audience which tends to be lower carb and inclusive of animal protein. So, we discussed all of that. I think if you listen to that, you'll walk away with some practical dietary and lifestyle things that you can do for Alzheimer's prevention. As far as the actual fasting, I don't know that there are studies on ADF specifically, or different dietary approaches in Alzheimer's. Basically, I wouldn't stress too much about finding the fasting pattern to prevent Alzheimer's. Instead, I would focus on the fasting pattern that you can really integrate in your life, and that feels good, and that you can stick to and really, really focus on your dietary choices during your eating window. I think that is so huge.  

 

Oh, and then something that's really interesting, I was looking this up while Gin was reading the question, but I actually was just reading a study, and I almost don't want to bring this up because people like to draw very black and white conclusions from studies. So, we read something and it shows something, and then people think, "Oh, okay, this is black and white. This means this." What I encourage listeners to do is to really just try to take a more comprehensive picture and understand, we almost for anything-- I mean, it really is shocking. But almost for anything health related, you can probably find studies showing the complete opposite conclusion. That can be frustrating, it can be confusing, but I think that's also very freeing as well, because it just goes to show that you don't have to take anything as complete absolute truth when it comes to interpreting health studies and information and you can really read as much as you can, find what resonates with you and implement that. So, that's the lengthy intro to say that I was reading a study because she was asking about fasting in autophagy, and I was actually reading a study that was looking at ADF and comparing it to normal eating, and they actually did look at gene expression related to autophagy, and they did not find any effects on gene expression related to autophagy with ADF.  

 

Does that mean ADF does not encourage autophagy? No. All it means is that, I don't know that we have a definitive answer on what is the pathway to autophagy. If we know anything, we know that autophagy is actually always occurring. 24/7, we know that exercise for example increases autophagy, possibly just as much as fasting, but there're so many factors that are related. So, I wouldn't make autophagy the end goal. I would make your overall lifestyle-- especially, when it comes to Alzheimer's, your overall lifestyle supportive of your brain health. So, I would check out that interview that I did, and to speak to what I just said about finding contradictory things. So, the Sherzai's who I had on the show, like I said, they're very vegan, their approach just by its very nature is going to be higher carb, lower fat. If you want the complete opposite opinion, you can read Dr. Dale Bredesen's book, it is The End of Alzheimer's, he actually takes more of a low carb approach. So, I know that's ironic. I really want to have him on the show, because I would love to have his perspective as well.  

 

But basically, what I'd recommend Andrea is, maybe reading those two books and finding what resonates with you, finding what overlaps between them, and implementing that as well, I think, if anything, we do know that fasting is very supportive of health. It does enhance autophagy in general. And I already mentioned this earlier, but my supplement serrapeptase, and I did not plan this at all. I forgot that this question was even in here. There have been studies on it and it breaks down amyloid plaque, both in vivo and in vitro and rodent trials, and then, I think the other one was like the zebrafish or something. I don't know. It was so random. But the importance of that is, so, basically in vitro means in a cell dish, so, if they put serrapeptase on amyloid plaque just in a cell dish, it breaks it down. It also works in vivo that means within the organism, so that means if they give serrapeptase to rats, or to the zebrafish, or whatever they're testing that it breaks down the amyloid plaque within their brain. That's super cool that it does both. There haven't been human studies on this, but I think that's pretty telling. So, I would definitely, definitely go big on the serrapeptase supplementation for Alzheimer's prevention as well.  

 

Again, I'm not a doctor and again, if you missed it in the beginning, mine will be at avalonx.com for that. Things like ZOE and stuff like that, we've talked about ZOE a lot in this show. It's a program where you eat these designer muffins, wear a CGM, do some blood tests, test your gut microbiome, and it shows how your body processes carbs and fat, it shows you where your gut microbiome is at, and then it makes recommendations to best support your metabolic health. That's not Alzheimer's, but that's taking charge of your metabolic health, which honestly like metabolic health, I think is the foundation for everything. Because it's how your body is turning food into energy, whether or not your body is storing that as fat, whether or not it's building up in your body creating the metabolic issue problems, you could argue that is where things start going wrong. So, when you're no longer to properly process your fuel, that's when things are building up. Amyloid plaque in the brain could be an issue from that. So, really, anything that supports your health, I think is the way to go. So, we'll put links in the show notes to those two books. I'll put links with discount codes for ZOE, we'll put link to the serrapeptase, but I think there's a lot you can do.  

 

One last thing I did want to point out was that, yes, there is a genetic tendency, a gene for Alzheimer's, A-P-O-E-4. That said, even if you do have a genetic tendency for Alzheimer's, you can make massive, massive steps to prevent it. So, I would not be wedded to that if you get that diagnosis. 

 

Gin Stephens: Well, you pretty much nailed everything. [laughs] You went through it. I'll keep it simple kind of girl. Find a lifestyle that feels good to you. The kind of fasting that feels good if you want to throw in like a meal less Monday kind of thing, once a week and follow that by an up day, so that you're getting that one longer fast if it just feels like something that is beneficial, and then, do what feels good the other days. I mean, I eat every day. So, I'm making that recommendation because you sound like you're interested in doing longer fasts, but I eat every day. I don't do meal less Monday. But a lot of people love it and I'm a huge fan of ZOE. And finding foods that make you feel great that you also enjoy eating. That's the thing about ZOE. It helped me figure out what foods worked well for my body. It gave me some tips like, "Hey, I shouldn't eat as much fat all at one time." Although, it didn't tell me to eat low fat, I just shouldn't eat like a whole lot of fat, then eat a whole lot of fat again like in a really tight eating window. So, it taught me some things about that. So, learning about your body is always a good thing. I felt so great when I was following their recommendations very strictly. I met my goal and I feel good. So, I loosely think about what I learned, but I don't like do it.  

 

Melanie Avalon: I was thinking with a meal less Monday, when I did the prep for the colonoscopy, so not the PillCam, but the colonoscopy, I drank the laxative stuff, but then I also did bone broth because you can have clear liquids. It was interesting because-- so just drinking the bowel prep stuff, which was this awful liquid laxative that I flavored with a strawberry kiwi stevia thing, just drinking that I was not hungry, but then, I had the bone broth, and I got starving. So, I was like mental note. I was like mental note next time just do a complete fast. So, on Halloween, when I was doing the bowel prep, I just did the bowel prep. This is also just talking to individuality. I sweetened it with stevia strawberry kiwi stuff. That's all I did. So, it ended up being a fast of about like a 48 hour fast-ish almost. I didn't the night before and then I wasn't going to eat that day, and so then I fasted, and then I had to go all the next day, and I was like, "Oh, I really I kind of like this," and I'm like, "Maybe I do want to try integrating a complete fast here and there." 

 

Gin Stephens: A longer fast.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Although, I will say I'm freezing when I do that. So, sleeping at night-- Normally, I always sleep with my Chilipad OOLER, and it's really cold, and it keeps my body heat down. But when I don't eat that night and sleep, I'm like really cold. That's typical for longer fasts. We hear that. So, but I was like, "Oh, this feels like a really nice clean out." But I don't know. I just love eating so much at night that--  

 

Gin Stephens: Me, too. I want to eat every day.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I do too. But it's a nice reframe. Because now I'm like, if I ever have to do this again, it's nice to know that I can do it and it wasn't even that hard. It was hard though, when I felt when I had the bone broth because it made me hungry. Without the bone broth, it was easy.  

 

Gin Stephens: All right. So, let's go on to the next question. Are we ready? Paula.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Yes.  

 

Gin Stephens: Paula, the subject is: "Melatonin and so many other cues." [laughs] "Melanie and Gin, thank you so much for all that you do. I'm a fan and listen to you weekly on my Monday AM workout session. I recently listened to Melanie's podcast on melatonin and have a lot of questions. Number one, does it interfere with metabolism/fasting etc.?" 

 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Before I answer, the episode that Paula is referring to, I interviewed Dr. John Lieurance on my show, he has a new book. He calls it like Melatonin Miracle Hormone something like that. I'll put a link in the show notes. But the episode is at melanieavalon.com/melatonin. Brief summary, he's a fan of high, high, high dose supplementation of melatonin. His book talks about how we think of melatonin as a sleep hormone which it is and that it instigates the sleep state in a way. But he talks about how it's actually sort of like our body's master stress hormone, and that it does all these other crazy things which it does. There's actually so much literature on it. So, it's a really fascinating read. He has a whole protocol of supplementing melatonin. So, question one. "Does it interfere with metabolism, fasting, etc.?" Not really. So, if you're taking it, it's not going to have an effect on you. You might could argue that it's going to support your overall health in general. So, maybe it's going to have a beneficial effect on your metabolism if you're utilizing it correctly, but you don't have to worry about it breaking your fast or anything like that. 

 

Gin Stephens: I think also with melatonin it depends on the formulation about whether it breaks your fast. Like if you're eating melatonin gummies or something, that would be different. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you, Gin. Thank you. Such a good point. 

 

Gin Stephens: I know the nuts and bolts because that's what people ask. They're like, "Can I take melatonin and what if it's a gummy?" So, it does matter. If you're eating a melatonin gummy that would not be fasting. I don't worry about capsules so much. A real stickler might be like, "Yeah, but what's the filler?" But you know, you're about to go to bed. So, anyway. [laughs]  

 

Melanie Avalon: A lot of them are like chewables, or gummies, or syrups. So, yeah. 

 

Gin Stephens: Number two, "Is it worth taking over the counter pills? I don't need them to sleep, but feeI they help waking up less through the night as I'm now going through menopause with some night hot flashes." 

 

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, I find it really interesting that they help you with not waking up just because in general, they're more of a sleep instigator, but I guess people would find that an experience as well, where it does help with sleeping throughout the night. Is it worth it? It's totally a N of 1 experience. To recap, Dr. John Lieurance's approach is not really tackling sleep specifically, its tackling overall metabolic health, and it's a different protocol. But to talk about just melatonin in general, if it's working for you do it, if it's not, don't. I don't know, I get on the fence about dosing melatonin for sleep because the studies-- they've done studies on the melatonin on the market, and it's shocking. The amount that actually is in the supplements compared to what they say it is. It's really hard to regulate. It's very surprising to me. I won't go on a soapbox about this. But it's very interesting, what is regulated and what isn't and something like melatonin, that's a straight up hormone isn't really regulated, and there can be all these supplements. It's very strange to me.  

 

You can find a brand that you trust, and you like it, and you take it, and it helps you, I would do that. I know a lot of listeners take Dr. Kirk Parsley's sleep remedy and that does have a tiny bit of melatonin in it, but I really like that supplement because it's a synergistic blend of basically all the different ingredients your brain needs to start the sleep state. So, it's not like it's knocking you out like a drug. It's just giving your brain what it needs to fall asleep and it does include melatonin. So, I would actually rather than do straight up melatonin, I probably take that instead. I can put a link in the show notes to it. I have a discount for it as well. But yeah, is it worth taking it? It's really you just have to experiment for yourself. 

 

Gin Stephens: I feel hungover in the morning when I take melatonin. I don't feel good for melatonin. I don't know why. Taking a good quality magnesium is what really helps me with my sleep. I've changed the time that I'm taking my magnesium and that seems to have made a difference. That might be the key. I always took it at bedtime but now, I'm taking it with my dinner. 

 

Melanie Avalon: I take mine with my dinner. 

 

Gin Stephens: I'm now taking it with my dinner. I've always taken it with bedtime-- at bedtime. Now, I take it with my dinner. So, I don't know if that's making a difference. Maybe it has time to get into my system better but I'm sleeping through the night. That is very exciting or it could just be that my body is used to the hormonal changes, I don't know. But it's very exciting. 

 

Melanie Avalon: I was just checking. This is crazy. So, listeners, the magnesium that Gin is talking about specifically, the ad in today's show from BiOptimizers is actually about that magnesium, and you'll get-- we have a discount code, it's 10% off. So, find the ad in the show and listen to it. But the link is magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast. Coupon code IFPODCAST10 will get you 10% off. So, that's exciting.  

 

Gin Stephens: It's a really good magnesium. It's got a lot of different types of magnesium in it. But taking it with dinner maybe the key for me. 

 

Melanie Avalon: I get so excited which I guess is like the entirety of what I do. But when something works for me, and then I recommend it to somebody, and then it really helps them, I get so excited. So, I've heard this now-- I've heard it a lot from the audience, but just in the podcast world, Noelle [unintelligible 00:48:46] who has the Wealth & Women Podcast, BiOptimizers now sponsors them and I had introduced her to them and Noelle lauds magnesium breakthrough all the time that it really helps her with staying asleep and it's really exciting. 

 

Gin Stephens: Yep. So, number three question. "Can you shed some light into supplements in suppository form? Had never heard about it until that podcast?" 

 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Supplements in suppository form. 

 

Gin Stephens: Can we take a vote, I guess, can we make a guess? Has Gin ever done supplements in suppository form? Yes, or no? 

 

Melanie Avalon: No. 

 

Gin Stephens: You're correct. You win a prize. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Let's play with Melanie. Has Melanie? 

 

Gin Stephens: Yes. Melanie has. Am I right? 

 

Melanie Avalon: No. 

 

Gin Stephens: Oh, darn it. I thought I was going to-  

 

Melanie Avalon: I know. It's a twist ending.  

 

Gin Stephens: Okay, it was literally.  

 

Melanie Avalon: I've done all the other things. Enemas, and colonics, and I have now had two people on the show trying to convince me to take a suppository. You just insert a pill down there. I don't really know how to say it. Otherwise--  

 

Gin Stephens: That's how you do it. You nailed it.  

 

Melanie Avalon: In the back, in your back side. Not the front.  

 

Gin Stephens: Well, I think there might be suppositories for that, yeah? I think they're called, I don't want to say it, vaginal suppositories. Okay, I said it. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, I was going to say, "Are there?" That's interesting for like yeast infections and stuff or--  

 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I think, oh yeah. Okay, and then I have done those.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. [laughs] Oh, my goodness. Surprise ending. 

 

Gin Stephens: I don't know. I could be wrong, but I think they're considered that, too. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, probably. The benefits of suppositories is the absorption, that route is actually very, very effective. So, for example, when people do coffee enemas, which I have done a lot of coffee enemas. One of the benefits is the caffeine basically goes directly to your liver compared to drinking it orally, where and again, I'm going to sound so unscientific. So, please forgive me, but drinking caffeine orally, it has to go through this whole process, and through your body, and affects other things, and it can take a while to actually get to the liver, and go through its half-life and all of that. When you take it as an enema, which is similar to suppository, it's like bam. Liver and it does-- it has this whole detox effect. Yeah, the absorption can be really great, especially, for supplements that struggle to get absorbed via the gut for multiple reasons.  

 

A lot of people really struggle with absorbing nutrients and absorbing supplements because the state of our gut today with leaky gut, and our diets, and our environment. So, the suppository can kind of gets around all of those issues, especially, something like glutathione. Glutathione or NAD are two that it's really hard to get, even absorb it all orally. So, taking it that route is another way to go. It's funny. Dr. Lieurance keeps reaching out to me because he sent me a lot of his suppositories, and I still have them, and he keeps checking in like, "Have you taken them?" I don't know. I'm scared. I just don't want to-- for some reason, there's something about like putting it in and like it's like staying there that like bothers me. I don't know. Maybe someday. Maybe, I'll share on Instagram. 

 

Gin Stephens: That is a lot of sharing. [laughs]  

 

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Gin Stephens: All right. So, we have one more little section there and she says, "I'm 40 and according to my doctor premenopausal since I was 38, 135 pounds, 5'7" inches. Fast, 18 to 20 hours six times a week with an up day three meals on Sunday when I have breakfast with my kids. For me, only a mocha but since it's not fasting, I consider it a meal. Have not lost one pound fasting, but love how I feel. It would be amazing to lose five to 10 pounds though, but I do love my wine, cheese, and occasional bread. Again, thank you for all you do," Paula.  

 

Now, I'll say, Paula, your weight at 135 at 5'7" sounds really ideal. So, here's what I would do for you. I would not focus on the scale anymore. I would never even look at the scale, but focus on your honesty pants. Because you're very likely to see your body change, but your weight not to change like body re-composition, losing a little more fat. I don't know if you've heard me tell the story before about how I lost two jean sizes over a certain period of time. It's like over a year. But it only translated to two pounds on the scale. So, you're at the point where I wouldn't try to lose five to 10 pounds on the scale, but just focus on changes in your body. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm really, really glad that you brought that up. I was going to bring that up as well. Do you know what book I'm actually reading right now? Well, I'm reading a lot of books, but one of the books. It's The Cheese Trap. Have you heard of it? 

 

Gin Stephens: Is it the book that tells you not to eat cheese?  

 

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Neal Barnard. He is very anti-cheese. I just find it really interesting that you can write an entire book about not eating cheese. 

 

Gin Stephens: I mean, you know what? That's true. That is like I said, one I will never read because I don't want anybody telling me not to eat cheese because I love cheese. 

 

Melanie Avalon: I'm learning so much about cheese, though. I do agree. The only reason I want to bring it up is, if a person is following a "healthy diet in general," but they're wanting to lose weight and they're trying to figure out what food to best remove to lose weight, if you're having cheese, it might be one of the ones to start with for sure. 

 

Gin Stephens: I will say that's true. It is not a lose weight food. That is a fact. [laughs]  

 

Melanie Avalon: If anything, I'd say, more likely gain weight food. The reason I'm reading it as I'm going to be interviewing him which is very exciting because I think, I might have mentioned him on the show before, he's very vegan, very vegan. When you think vegans, you think Dr. Michael Greger, Dean Ornish, Dr. Neal Barnard. [laughs] So, I'm very excited to interview him. What I want to ask him about though, he's basically making the case in this book that, cheese's pretty much the worst thing we can be eating. But he hasn't talked about any of the studies on calorie-restricted diets with low-fat dairy. All the studies I've looked at that compare calorie-restricted diets with low-fat dairy to calorie-restricted diets without low-fat dairy show better effects in the calorie-restricted diets with low-fat dairy. So, I'm very excited to ask him about that.  

 

I'm actually bringing him on for his new study about menopause. We [unintelligible [00:57:29] questions in here about menopause and a vegan diet, a soy inclusive vegan diet to reduce menopause symptoms. That's what he wants to talk about. So, I've been diving deep into the soy literature and I will say, Gin, I'm actually-- think I'm changing my thoughts about soy a little bit.  

 

Gin Stephens: What do you mean?  

 

Melanie Avalon: So, my stance or my thoughts about it in general were that it's likely estrogenic. So, probably should be avoided for hormonal issues with the exception being maybe--  

 

Gin Stephens: Like fermented soy.  

 

Melanie Avalon: -fermented forms. I still actually-- looking into literature. I think that this might be the case. I'm excited to talk to him about it. But maybe Asian populations in general respond better to soy than Caucasian populations?  

 

Gin Stephens: No, I think that is very likely. Very much. So, yeah. 

 

Melanie Avalon: The thing that I'm expanding my mind or that I'm rethinking a little bit is, I'm not finding as many studies as I thought they were showing that soy has in vivo and the food form has these negative estrogenic effects. But it seems very complicated. So, I'm very excited to interview him. But one thing I got really excited about, sorry, this is a tangent, and then I'll stop. He talks about, one of the reasons they think soy might have beneficial effects is because your gut bacteria turn it into a compound called Equol. E-Q-U-O-L. It might depend on your gut bacteria. So, if you have these gut bacteria that turned soy into this Equol thing, then you were like an Equol responder. So, you would respond nicely to soy. But if you don't have those gut bacteria, you might not produce that Equol and then you might not have the beneficial effects. But I got really excited because then I was reading a research on Equol, reading a study on it, and it was talking about other foods that increase Equol and it was like soy and then it was a list of like cheese, milk, like all these dairy things. I can't wait to ask him about this. I'm so excited. 

 

Gin Stephens: Well, I just think that that's a fascinating example of-- Again, we are all different when it comes to what foods work well for our bodies. I think you nailed it when you said that certain populations genetically are adapted to eating for example soy or maybe seaweed because that's something that their ancestors have been eating. And that could even be-- Their gut microbiome as well something that's passed on from the culture where they grow up, and from the foods that they're eating when they're little, and from their parents. So many factors come into play. So, the black and white, this food's good, this food's bad. As long as it's a real food, I don't-- I don't like to put real foods in that good and bad like now. Like GMO soy, that's all over the place in the United States. Okay, I could say a note of that one. Most of this, I talked about this in Clean(ish). Most of the soy in the United States is GMO and it's in everything.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Is it the highest?  

 

Gin Stephens: I think it was. Like 90 something. Yeah, I think it was. I can't-- off top my head. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Like the most GMO?  

 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I think so.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. A huge question I have for him is like, "can you-- If you eat these foods enough, can you eventually get that gut bacteria that's going to turn it into that compound or do some people just not have that population? So, no matter how much soy they eat, they're never going to become like an Equol producer." 

 

Gin Stephens: That's a great question. I wonder if he knows the answer.  

 

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to ask him.  

 

Gin Stephens: Like, I wonder if anyone knows the answer, because you know our gut microbiome is still a mystery, because they're really still learning about it. When I had my analysis done in 2017 versus when I had it done again for ZOE in 2021, four years difference, huge difference in the amount of information that we can learn now versus 2017.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's crazy. Everything that we learn. I think the more we learn, the more we realize we don't know. One of the biggest I feel sort of recent changes is, they actually, originally, drastically overestimated how many bacteria cells to human cells there are. It used to be this crazy stat of like, I don't know how many. It was a big amount of like, there are this many bacterial cells for every one human cell. Now, it's almost closer to a one-to-one ratio I think.  

 

Gin Stephens: That is interesting. I say in Clean(ish) that the motto for scientists everywhere should be, "Oops, we were wrong before." [laughs] Because you know, that's the thing. Things change. The more we look into stuff, the more we're like, "Ha, that's not true. What we thought was not true at all."  

 

Melanie Avalon: On a recent Robb Wolf episode, he went on this whole tangent about how frustrating the phrases when people say the science is settled. I don't think the science is really ever settled. I'm refining things, you know, like things that all the time that we're just wrong about like how can it ever be settled? 

 

Gin Stephens: Well, one of my favorite quotes is "Questioning science is science." Literally, it's not a good quote?  

 

Melanie Avalon: That is so true.  

 

Gin Stephens: I taught the scientific method to elementary students. I was in charge of the science fair in Aiken Elementary for years, and then, I taught my fourth-grade gifted kids the scientific method, and they did project, science projects at school, 100% at school, which was so much fun. They didn't take them home and have their parents do them. They did them completely at school. But you know, that really is true. Questioning science literally is science, because everything starts with a question that you're trying to answer. 

 

Melanie Avalon: The whole method is creating a hypothesis and then trying to prove it wrong like questioning it. 

 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, exactly. So, Chad's a research scientist and he always talks about the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yep. That's literally how I feel. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode240. Those show notes will have a full transcript. So, definitely check that out. They'll also have links to everything we talked about and we talked about a lot of stuff that was linkable. You can follow us on Instagram. You can follow my Verified.  

 

Gin Stephens: You can see my screen porch.  

 

Melanie Avalon: You can follow my Verified profile. So happy. I'm @melanieavalon on Instagram and Gin is @ginstephens. And yes, so, I hope Gin that you are able to rest and I hope you're feeling sprightly. 

 

Gin Stephens: I'm going to, I'm willing myself. I don't stay sick for long. Whenever I'm sick, it like comes, I'm like always surprised by it. It comes out of nowhere and I'm like, "What? I'm sick? How'd that happen?" Then I like, "I'll have maybe a day where I don't feel well," and then, I wake up the next day and I'm fine. So, that is what I'm claiming. I will wake up tomorrow and find that is what I am expecting. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Do you come here on Sunday or Monday? 

 

Gin Stephens: I'm coming Sunday. I'm not coming early because I'm coming on Sunday checking into the hotel and I'll be there Sunday night. But just get up and go, record Monday morning. I just didn't want to be driving in from home and having to be there at nine in the morning going through Atlanta traffic because, you know Atlanta traffic. The recording studio changed from one part of town to another and the guy was like, "Well--" You know MacMillan, the guy in charge of the audio book was like, "All right, well, we got to this hotel room in downtown Atlanta, but the recording studio just moved and it's 15 minutes away. Do you want to move your hotel?" I thought about it because the hotel I was booked in was a nicer hotel, but I'm looking at 15 minutes in Atlanta is like might be an hour and a half. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, easier to just be by there and I really did find some really cool-- I'm debating between two different places, but-- 

 

Gin Stephens: I would totally think that around Emory would have some excellent places to eat. I would have thought that. But I don't think the hotel is super great, but whatever.  

 

Melanie Avalon: This will be so exciting. And it'll be the day before my birthday.  

 

Gin Stephens: Yay.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Like the night off my birthday. 

 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, I can't wait. We can put a picture on Instagram. 

 

Melanie Avalon: I know. Oh my gosh. Well, I'll see you soon. 

 

Gin Stephens: Okey doke. Yes, you will. All right. Bye.  

 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Nov 14

Episode 239: Melanie’s Zoe Results, Burning Fat & Carbs, Blood Types, Personalized Nutrition, Low Insulin & High Glucose, Diabetes, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 239 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: Michele - Fasting insulin and fasting glucose

Listener Q&A: John - Fasting

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 239 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

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Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So when you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.  

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often test high for leads, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combined the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show. 

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 239 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: I'm so excited because our screened porch furniture came this week. Now, I can actually sit on the screen porch. We've been eating dinner out there every night. I'm so happy. 

Melanie Avalon: I love that. 

Gin Stephens: I know. It's a lot of porch. It's a big, big porch. So, [laughs] yeah, the furniture didn't go in like I thought it would. It looks way better than I thought it would, because of the way that we tweaked it, and I ordered a couple of rugs today, because it needs to be warmed up a little bit, but it is so cute out there. Ellie loves it. My cat Ellie, can I just tell you. The first night we always watch TV in the den which is right next to this room which Chad and I do before bed. Ellie sits or she might be outside. Ellie's in different places, but sometimes, she's outside, sometimes she's with us. But we always go to bed and I'm like, "All right, Ellie, time to go to bed."  

The first night we were out on the screen porch watching TV before bed with Ellie and then Ringo was out there, too. There's a cat flap on the door, the screen doors, they can go in and out. But Ellie was out and like she didn't know how to use it. So, we're like, "Okay, no problem." But when it was time to go to bed, I'm like, "All right, Ellie time to go to bed." So, we get up to go in the house, and you could tell-- She has got so much personality. She was like-- if she was a person, she would have said, "I don't want to." [laughs] She hid under the sofa, and then, I got her out, and she was running, and she ran under the table, and she wouldn't come out. So, finally, I got her and I took her inside. I was like, "All right, we're going to bed now."  

She did not go to bed. She ran outside through the other cat door. So, all right, whatever. She's mad now. The next morning, I woke up, she was on the screen porch. She had figured out how to use that because that cat flaps a little different. She had figured it out. She was like being super naughty and belligerent, and she's like, "You can't stop me. I'm going to sleep on the screen porch." [laughs] So, just a few minutes ago I was out there. She came in with a lizard. It was like old times. She ran right in with her little lizard, and dropped it at my feet, and start making that little noise she makes. So, she has claimed the screened porch. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that sounds like a very southern thing, the screen porch. 

Gin Stephens: Well, it is, because it's just-- so much of the year, you can go out there. Of course, you know, here we are. We're recording this end of October. It comes out in November, but it's still warm enough to go out there. But I wish we finished it just a month ago instead of. You know what, I've had more time to enjoy it because there will be December, January. There'll be some days I can use it, but I won't get as much use out of it as I will in like spring.  

Melanie Avalon: Will you guys put a fire pit or anything like that? 

Gin Stephens: I don't think we're going to. We've thought about that, but we've got a couple inside fireplaces in. I don't know. What we're thinking about it, maybe on the deck but I don't know, outside. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, very nice. 

Gin Stephens: It is very exciting. It's only been like a year ago that we had the plans drawn. So, it was a yearlong process. We're still not finished. It's taking forever like gutters need to be put on. We don't know why the gutter people haven't come. The electrician needs to finish a few things. Landscaping, oh, Lord, it's going to be another year before all the landscaping is done. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I want to see pictures when it's all done.  

Gin Stephens: All right. I have one picture on Instagram of a little table that we have out there.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: Take a look at that.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to look. I think I did see that pop up. Oh, that looks like indoors.  

Gin Stephens: I know. That's outdoors, though.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. I love it. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's very much like a-- here in the south, a screen porch is really very much three seasons. I can put on my Uggs and wrap up in a blanket and be out there on the warmer days. Probably, January, February, not as much, but-- 

Melanie Avalon: Very nice.  

Gin Stephens: What's up with you?  

Melanie Avalon: Well, we said, last week that we would discuss my ZOE results. 

Gin Stephens: I know and I've been waiting. I'm so excited about that.  

Melanie Avalon: I don't think we ever talked about yours.  

Gin Stephens: I think we did. I said that I cleared fat slowly and I cleared glucose slowly.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you were slow on both of them?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and I wasn't surprised that I cleared fat slowly. But I was a little more surprised about the glucose. 

Melanie Avalon: Were you like in the yellow, or the red, or was it really bad, or--? 

Gin Stephens: I can't remember. I don't remember that.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I don't think we talked about it that granularly. So, mine was exactly what I thought it was going to be. I clear fat really well, like almost excellent. 

Gin Stephens: See, yeah. I'm not surprised about that. Now, you clear glucose slowly, do you? 

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. So, I was so close. Fat, I was almost in the excellent category, and then for blood sugar, the four levels are bad or good and excellent, and it gives you an actual number. So, for blood sugar, I'm 35 which is poor. Good starts at-- It shows you like the average population and then it shows like what you are. So, the lowest of the low for the average population is 46. So, I'm below the average. I feel like I've said all along. I feel like I don't handle blood sugar very well. 

Gin Stephens: Okay. I just pulled up my report. So, I'm going to look at mine. Tell me, again, what was your blood sugar control?  

Melanie Avalon: My blood sugar was 35.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, mine was worse than yours. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, what was yours?  

Gin Stephens: 23. And I'm not surprised because I can remember when I was a little girl, I didn't eat a lot of sweets and sugar because I could feel it make my blood sugar crash. This is when I was young. I never really ate a lot of sweets, I didn't really like it. I could feel, it made my blood sugar crash. So, I was always the salty snack kind of person versus the sweet snack kind of person. So, yeah, my blood sugar control is worse than yours. What was your blood fat? 

Melanie Avalon: Is that in the bad category? 

Gin Stephens: Yes. I was right at the threshold of poor and bad. Yeah, it's in the bad but close to poor, but bad. What was your fat? 

Melanie Avalon: My poor, by the way, is dead smack in the middle of poor.  

Gin Stephens: Smack in the middle of poor. What was your fat? 

Melanie Avalon: 73. 

Gin Stephens: Mine was 46. So, it wasn't as bad. Mine's in the poor. So, the blood fat wasn't as bad.  

Melanie Avalon: Very cool. Yeah. Mine's, I'm so close. It's almost in the excellent. You know, that's really what I thought it was going to be something like that. I also think it's pretty telling because so clearly, I don't have good blood glucose or blood sugar control, but my fasting blood sugars are always good, my A1C is always good. So, I think that's pretty telling that the dietary approach that I'm doing with intermittent fasting and very high carb fruit, but low fat is working well.  

Gin Stephens: That's true, too, for me because I--, same exact thing. My test results are always fine. Interestingly, personalized nutrition, we know that the form that something's in makes a difference, I know, we tested the muffin. Muffin is what we used for the test. I know that things like muffins, and cookies, and cake, I know that, that makes me crash worse than if I have ice cream. So, I would have predicted that baked goods would make me crash sooner if that makes sense. But I guess that the ice cream is also high fat. When I had the fat, that's the variable. So, now, I'm thinking about I don't know how they would test that because I guess, maybe, if I had like a low fat ice cream, that would be interesting to test. 

Melanie Avalon: I would love to test just like the same amount of-- I mean, but it would be a huge volume. But the same amount of calories, and fat, and carbs, but from whole foods that would be from the type of foods I normally eat. But I know for me personally, eating the same amount of carbs from fruit, I tolerate really well. But if I eat that from starches or definitely processed foods, major spikes there. 

Gin Stephens: I see that's so interesting. My body responds fabulously to potatoes and starchy like whole grain kind of things. But not as well to fruit. Fruit makes me crash more so. It's very interesting and I've never been a big fruit eater. People have actually said that like back when I was on Facebook and posting my meals all the time, they're like, "I never see you eat fruit." I'm like. "I never do." [laughs] Sometimes, I'll have strawberries and blackberries when they're really in season and they look great in the grocery store. But I don't eat apples. I don't buy fruit and eat fruit.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm all about the fruit. I feel like I should-- well, I was going to say I should start a dietary approach, but it really is sort of the way Peat approach already, but a lot of people have come to me actually, people who have been doing carnivore or low carb, but pretty meat heavy, and doing a paradigm shift where they go low fat, but keeping all of that meat, but just make it lean and add in the fruit, because that's what I do basically. I've had quite a few people come to me and say, they want to experiment with that, and they're super nervous, but it's gone really well for all of them.  

Gin Stephens: So,  low fat, low carb, high protein. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so, basically keeping in the aspect of a carnivore low carb diet, that's high in the protein and high in the meat, but just replacing the fat aspect of that with fruit.  

Gin Stephens: High carb, high protein, low fat. All right, I'm done just trying to wrap my head around it. I was trying to compare it to what it might be out there. I was thinking of the Dukan diet, but Dukan is not- 

Melanie Avalon: It's Peat.  

Gin Stephens: Okay. Dukan is low fat, low carb, just high protein. Yeah, that's how it's different from that. I was trying to remember but yeah, it's definitely not the same as Dukan. I felt so bad on Dukan. That was the worst I ever felt ever. 

Melanie Avalon: It's basically what I did for a few years. 

Gin Stephens: You felt good on that?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.  

Gin Stephens: I've never felt worse. I only made it like a very short time on that. It was because it was like low fat, low carb, high protein and I just was like, I felt that I was going to die. [laughs] I didn't last very long at all. 

Melanie Avalon: Interestingly, so Maria Emmerich, do you know her? 

Gin Stephens: I know who she is. Yep, she's a keto person. She writes cookbooks, too, right? She's got a lot of cookbooks.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, her thing is the whole Protein Sparing Modified Fast, PSMF. But she just focuses on the protein sparing part and there's no calorie restriction at all. So, she advocates basically Dukan Diet days. Basically, days of really high protein, low fat, low carb. She had a webinar thing recently. It was an in person and a webinar. I have the playback and I'm watching it right now, because I'm prepping the show, and you've got to watch this. It's her and her husband, and they talk about everything we talked about. So, well, with slides and her husband, I think is some sort of, I don't know, if he's like an engineer. He's in that world. But literally everything we talked about, like chasing ketones, and the role of fat, but something he pointed out that had never occurred to me and I seriously just need to take a course, and I'm like, I don't know, metabolism. What would that be? Biochemistry?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. I don't really know. Chad would know. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He pointed out something that never occurred to me. The reason we enter ketosis is not because we can't burn carbs. Do you know why?  

Gin Stephens: Why?  

Melanie Avalon: It's because we can't burn fat. This blew my mind.  

Gin Stephens: Okay, wait a minute. We can't burn fat, but does he mean that we can't be fueled by fat?  

Melanie Avalon: No, we can't burn fat. So, burning fat requires pyruvate. Pyruvate is created from carbs. When we don't have carbs, we can't form-- is it pyruvate or- 

Gin Stephens: I don't know. But wait, we do burn fat. So, now I'm confused. I just don't understand what he means by, you can't burn fat. He's not saying our bodies are incapable of burning fat ever.  

Melanie Avalon: -okay oxaloacetate. Okay. So, the thing he said that blew my mind is, he said, "The reason we enter ketosis is not because we can't burn carbs, it's because we can't burn fat."  

Gin Stephens: But we can burn fat though. We do burn fat. I don't know. What do you mean by can't burn fat? Can't burn fat, so, we have to go into ketosis to allow us to burn fat? He's not saying, we don't burn fat from our bodies, is he? 

Melanie Avalon: When we're not in ketosis, we're burning fat in the Krebs cycle. To burn fat, it requires oxaloacetate which is made from glucose. So, when we run out of carbs or glucose, we can't make oxaloacetate, we can't burn fat in the Krebs cycle. So, the body has to instead switch into a ketogenic state, send fat to the liver, generate ketones, and also, it can break down fat for glycerol in the liver. So, that just blows my mind. Literally, the switch like, "Oh, making ketones. It's not because we ran out of carbs. It's because we can no longer burn fat without carbs."  

Gin Stephens: Okay. The liver has to basically once it depletes the glycogen, then the fat comes in and we make the ketones out of that in the liver. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But the reasoning-- that just blows my mind. The reasoning is because we can't burn fat is the reason we start burning ketones, not carbs. Mind blown. Mind blown. 

Gin Stephens: I guess I'm trying to understand the definition of can't burn fat. 

Melanie Avalon: Literally, can't. So, to burn fat in the Krebs cycle it requires oxaloacetate from glucose. So, literally cannot burn fat. Don't have the substrate to burn it. 

Gin Stephens: We have to convert it. When we say that we flipped the metabolic switch, we're not getting into deeper fat burning. We're getting into fat conversion. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I guess it's like trying to think of analogy. 

Gin Stephens: I know. That's more than I want to go. [laughs] That's a lot. 

Melanie Avalon: When we're not in ketosis, we're burning fat a certain way and the way we burn it, it requires carbs. It's like they always say fat burns in the flame of carbs. It's because it actually does require carbs to burn fat in the normal functioning state if you're not in ketosis. So, then when you run out of carbs, your body's like, "Oh, we can't burn fat anymore. This is a problem. What are we going to do?" So, it starts a whole different process. 

Gin Stephens: Okay. You just wouldn't call the process of turning fat into ketones burning fat. It's converting fat and you're using the fat to convert it into ketones. But technically that's not "burning the fat." It's just the technical wording is what it sounds like to me.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, in a way you are, but I'm saying before that happens. So, like the in between. The moment we start a new way of fat burning with ketosis is because we temporarily can't burn fat without carbs. So, it's like switching the way that we're burning fat. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm just going to keep calling it flipping the metabolic switch like Mark Mattson says. [laughs] That's my favorite way of referring to. It's we're flipping the metabolic switch, so our body is using fat for fuel through the ketosis process. That still works. We can still say that because that's still true. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, here's a good clarification. I think the misconception that's out there is that while we have carbs, we're burning carbs, and we're not burning fat, and then we run out of carbs and it's like, "Okay, well now we've got to just burn fat, so we start ketosis." But actually, when we're burning carbs, we're also burning fat, and then it's when we run out of carbs that we can't burn fat for the long term, so then we switch to ketosis. 

Gin Stephens: Basically, my takeaway is, there's a lot going on. So, I don't think we need to really worry about what's going on Fast. Feast. Repeat. and it'll happen. That's my take. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I literally wrote in all caps, 'MIND BLOWN, TALK ABOUT.' That's the note I wrote. 

Gin Stephens: Well, cool. I'm glad. I'm just like, "Yeah." [laughs] Look, the teacher in me loves that you want to know all that. Does that make sense?  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.  

Gin Stephens: Then I'm just like, "All right--." I tuned out when my teacher was talking about the Krebs cycle in biology.  

Melanie Avalon: I might take a course in all my free time or get a book.  

Gin Stephens: Keep in mind, I taught elementary school. So, my mind really loves elementary level science. Understanding it at the basic just-- Think about the greatest hits, right? You know, how you learned the greatest hits of every artist, like a lot of things but you're not like, you don't know everything there is to know about Taylor Swift? You know everything there is to know about Taylor Swift. You're the deep diver. I'm the greatest hits. There's the difference. 

Melanie Avalon: You know why that's an even better analogy, because if you just hear the greatest hits from an artist, there could be like not misconceptions, but you could have like a certain-- because I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'm saying like you could have a view that's correct but is not actually quite as nuanced as-- 

Gin Stephens: The very best example of that is the Grateful Dead. I went to a Grateful Dead concert with Will a few years ago in Atlanta and I was like, "Where's Sugar Magnolia, where's Uncle John's band, what are they playing?" [giggles] Because I had the Grateful Dead Greatest Hits, if that is not what they played. So, I get it. I was like, "I do not like the Grateful Dead at a concert. It was not my jam." But Will was like, "This is amazing," and it was actually dead in company. I think, they call it now and it was with John Mayer, and Will is so excited, but I was, "This is terrible. What's happening?" Anyway, I just want to hear Sugar Magnolia. Anyway, I wanted to circle back to something from before. What is your blood type?  

Melanie Avalon: Oh.  

Gin Stephens: I knew it was, oh. I was going to say, "Oh, let me tell you why, now." Here's a caveat. I do not believe it is as simple as blood type. But did you ever read The Blood Type Diet 

Melanie Avalon: Yes.  

Gin Stephens: And my friend, who did great on the Dukan Diet and he loved it. She was type O. I am type A. So, I do not believe everyone should go out and read The Blood Type Diet and follow it, because I tried to follow it. It never-- what he said to eat for 'A' didn't quite feel right to me. Then, if you read his later books, it gets even little more convoluted. He's like, "Well, it's not your blood type. It's like whether you're this or genotype or whatever," and then I was trying to figure that out. Then, it directly contradicted what he said earlier, and then I was so confused. I was like, "Never mind."  

But that really was the first time I ever-- I say the first time, I heard about personalized nutrition was 2017, but actually, it was when I read The Blood Type Diet, the whole idea that we are different when it comes to what foods might work for us. So, there's that whole genetic factor or whatever. So, I don't think it's as simple as blood type, and I don't think he ever really proved his concept sufficiently for me to be like, "Yeah, that's it." But I was predicting you were type O. 

Melanie Avalon: My theory with that is-- and this is not a comprehensive theory. But one of my thoughts about what might be going on is, he says that blood type O naturally correlate to higher HCl levels. I think that probably plays a big role in the high protein intake.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that makes sense. Because your body is better able to break it down.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's like having just a naturally more carnivorous gut in a way. The thing about his work is very fascinating. But he mentions all of these studies and these tests and like I don't know where they are. I think they're all of his own work, you know?  

Gin Stephens: And his dad even. I think his dad started the-- I don't know. It's been years since I read it.  

Melanie Avalon: I wish they were published or something because you have to just take his word at it. 

Gin Stephens: Then when if you read his later work, did you read his later work or you started going into like, whether you're the farmer, or the teacher, or the warrior, or whatever, genotype stuff that and you could get this test and that test, and then I was like, "Wait, whether you're secreter or non-secreter." I'm like, "This is way too complicated. Forget it." He lost me. [laughs] You know, everything was so contradictory, that also confused me. But I do think, we're different. Blood type is definitely related to genetics, right? You know certain populations, so it takes you back to the part that we've got genetic differences, which I do think is the solid foundation of that theory of his. 

Melanie Avalon: I agree. Just his catalog is so specific and granular. 

Gin Stephens: It's like this really specific food. Eight navy beans, don't eat lima beans. I'm like, "What? Right." [laughs] Yeah, eat almond butter, not peanut butter. It was kind of like that. I can't remember what it was. But I know that overall, 'A' was supposed to thrive on-- in general, you would describe it as 'A.' 

Melanie Avalon: Was it agrarian or agriculture?  

Gin Stephens: Kind of vegetarian-ish with less meat, but some meat. That is really how I eat and 'O' was more like protein and meat. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it did-- It did line up with me pretty well, which was interesting. I wonder if he goes on shows. I should try to get him on the show. 

Gin Stephens: That would be interesting. He's an interesting guy. So, I don't think that everything he says is completely wrong. But I don't think it's quite as simple as just blood type. We know it's not because the work that Tim Spector's doing, we know that a lot of it is your gut. We're so complicated that whenever we try to drill down to just like one little thing, we're a lot more complicated than that. 

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Melanie Avalon: How was your gut microbiome result from it? 

Gin Stephens: I don't have that report of-- I had some good stuff and some not as good stuff. It wasn't bad. It wasn't terrible. 

Melanie Avalon: Mine was, let me pull it up. Mine was pretty much where I thought it wasn't that good.  

Gin Stephens: It wasn't?  

Melanie Avalon: No. 

Gin Stephens: Let's see if-- I don't know if I can find it quickly or not.  

Melanie Avalon: Because they test 30 different strains. I'm dying to know like, people who follow a carnivore diet, and don't perceive having any gut issues and feel really good, I'd be really curious what they look like on these panels. I wonder if this panel is something that is--, I don't know I'd be curious like vegan versus carnivore. So, I only had three of the good ones and I had one, two, three, four, five, six, seven of the bad ones. So, less than ideal. 

Gin Stephens: I'm looking at it sideways. It's hard to say. I've got more than three of the good ones. One, two, three, four, five. I've got like, most-- I've got a lot of good ones.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: I have a lot of [unintelligible [00:30:56]. How's your [unintelligible [00:30:57]? 

Melanie Avalon: I don't have [unintelligible [00:30:59]. 

Gin Stephens: Okay. It's one of the good ones. I've got 9%. It's fecal bacterium [unintelligible [00:31:07]. I'm reading it sideways. Oh, listen to this. It says it's associated with higher polyunsaturated fat levels and lower levels of insulin. Well, we know I have low levels of insulin. I have 9.3% and normal is 7%.  

Melanie Avalon: You can see just all the good and bads. Can you see how many goods you have and how many bads? 

Gin Stephens: I think my report might be different than yours because I did it so long ago. I don't see that information.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I have an overview of the 30.  

Gin Stephens: Listen, I have a lot of Oscar too, which is Oscillibacter whatever and it's associated with higher insulin sensitivity and lower levels of insulin. So, again, the ones that are associated with higher levels of insulin sensitivity and lower levels of insulin, I seem to have a lot of those or more of those.  

 

Melanie Avalon: I have Veronica with higher insulin sensitivity and lower inflammation, Violet higher insulin sensitivity and lower insulin, and Valentina, I have all Vs, higher polyunsaturated fat levels and lower inflammation. That's so interesting, all the inflammation ones. The other ones-- wow, wait, that's really interesting. 

Gin Stephens: So, you've got really low inflammation according to your gut. 

Melanie Avalon: I have the ones for inflammation. 

Gin Stephens: Then the bad ones, I've got some good on the bad ones too. The one that's associated with less favorable fat profile, I have a good ratio of those. I have fewer of those. I get green because I have fewer of them in the bad bugs. I don't have a lot of bad bugs at all. I'm really good on not having the bad ones. That's good.  

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting.  

Gin Stephens: It is so interesting. You know your gut changes, so that's good. How about the beneficial parasite Blastocystis? 

Melanie Avalon: Blastocystis hominis? 

Gin Stephens: I was negative for that one. 

Melanie Avalon: I don't think I have that. Let me find that. 

Gin Stephens: It's supposed to be good for you. 

Melanie Avalon: I don't have it. 

Gin Stephens: And they said it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just one part of a very complex system, so that's good. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't have it. Yes. So, for listeners, if they are interested, we didn't even say what it was. We kind of just assumed-- 

Gin Stephens: Well, people have been listening. They know. Oh, I just got a crick in my neck because I was turned my head sideways because the report was like sideways. So, now I've got like a crick in my neck. I need somebody to rub my neck. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, Gin, last night, I went to-- I love massages and I went to the massage parlor that I always go to and normally they just do like a Swedish massage, the normal thing. But this woman, I don't know, she went straight-up Thai. The whole walking on top of me. I was like, "What is happening?" You know, where they hold on to the bars and then they walk on you? 

Gin Stephens: No, I've never had a massage therapist that did that.  

Melanie Avalon: I was like, "What is happening?" Then she started pulling out these tools and she was like, "I'm going to do these things." I was like, "Okay." Then, she started doing cupping which is fine, but my whole back looks I don't know, it still looks like really scary. I hope it goes away.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, no, I have a massage therapist that I go to. I'm very like, I'll find somebody and that's who I go to forever until something happens to them. So, I have a girl. Her name is Ginny and she's amazing and I go-- I go every four weeks. I just make my appointment. I used to go every six weeks, now I go every four weeks.  

Melanie Avalon: I probably go four days a week.  

Gin Stephens: Really to get a massage? 

Melanie Avalon: To get a chair massage, a 15 or 20-minute one, and then there's like hour long massage. I probably go once a month. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I go once a month. I do 90 minutes once a month. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, she was saying, she was like, "Next time you should come for 90 minutes," and I'm like, "Mm, I'm not--" [laughs] No, I'm not going.  

Gin Stephens: But I just really liked the girl that I go to. She's fabulous. I just started going to her over the pandemic. I lost the person I had been going to, anyway long story. She was no longer available. So, I had to find to somebody new. My hairstylist recommended, you want to know somebody good, ask your hairstylist, because they know who's good.  

Melanie Avalon: But yes. So, ZOE. I don't remember why we were talking about that. Oh, you've got a crick in your neck.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I have a crick in my neck. I'm not going to your girl.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. No, I was scared. I was like, "Oh my goodness, what if I--" I was like [unintelligible [00:35:17], "I wonder how many people have died during massage." Like somebody walking on them, and then accidentally stepping on their neck or something. 

Gin Stephens: Crushing them?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, that sounds like a bad idea. I'm not down for that.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm not. She gave me her number and her name. She's like, "You know, next time, you can come back?" I'm like, "Okay." I'm not going to do that. So, ZOE for listeners, is a very super cool program created by Tim Spector, who wrote Spoon-Fed and The Diet Myth, oh, which, by the way, my episode with him airs. While we're recording it, it airs this Friday. So, it will have come outs. If listeners would like to listen to my interview with Tim, which was incredible and amazing. We dive deep into the gut microbiome. We talked a lot about the ZOE program. I was really excited because I talked about this before on the show, but he was very open and transparent about how the way it's set up right now.  

Gin Stephens: It's not perfected yet, right?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. People are doing low carb diets, for example, because of the temporarily--, is it called physiological insulin resistance? So, basically, when you're on a low carb diet, your body becomes a little bit insulin resistant if you are exposed to carbs, because it wants to basically save those carbs for the brain. So, the muscles become a little bit insulin resistant. It's transient, and it's temporary, and it's not-- it's benign, and it reverses really quickly. But the way to reverse it is to basically reintroduce carbs. So, he was saying that, they've even been wondering, should they have some accommodation for that for people who do the muffins after coming from a low carb diet? 

Gin Stephens: Oh, good point. Yeah, that makes sense. Isn't he brilliant? He's a brilliant man. 

Melanie Avalon: Because I asked him that. I was like, "What about people on low carb diets?" He was saying, "They're thinking about that," and he was saying in the future, "They might--" Oh, he's saying also like, "What they have a version of it that is low carb, basically." Oh and I asked my question that I had which was people who get bad fat clearance scores, might it actually be possible that they actually would do well on a low carb diet, which might be higher fat. Anyways, we talked about all of that. So, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But he created this program. If you've signed up for the CGM arm of it, you get a CGM, you eat these muffins, it measures your blood and fat clearance, like Gin and I just talked about, you do a gut microbiome test, which Gin and I just talked about. It is very, very cool. So, we'll put links in the show notes to it. 

Gin Stephens: Awesome. So, that was a lot. [laughs] But also interesting. Oh, we have some feedback.  

Melanie Avalon: We have some feedback from April, and the subject is "Yay." April says, "I'm so excited. I'm listening to Episode 216 and you answered my question on a morning window. Thank you and I have an update on it. I've been fasting now for a while and I'd say I have adjusted and I'm fat adapted. I was feeling really good in my morning window. I almost hit my goal and was starting to incorporate some ADF to try and push through to it. I was getting comments about how good I looked and how much younger I looked. But my husband was not liking me not eating with the family at dinnertime since that's when he's home, and that's our only family meal together. So, I again moved to a later window and started gaining weight and felt horrible. I wonder if this is part of why fasting doesn't "work for some people."  

Because if I had only ever tried a later window, I would definitely say fasting doesn't work for me. I know you always say you will never stop fasting, but if I only knew the later window, I certainly would not want to continue fasting. Anyway, as a compromise, I sometimes eat dinner with the family and just do a shorter fast that day, and sometimes have my morning eating window. That's working for now. Thanks again, April." 

Gin Stephens: It really illustrates that there is no one size fits all. When people ask me, "What's the best window?" I can't tell you. I can only tell you what window works well for me. What makes me feel the best, like Melanie and I were talking before we started recording, my aunt recently died. She was 94. She had a good life. She really did have a great life and I got to see her the week before she died, and connect with her, so that was nice. But we were at the funeral yesterday and it was a southern church funeral. Anybody who [laughs] has been to a southern church funeral, all the people of the church brought just amazing food. Like fresh corn from-- Amazing. So, I opened my window at noon.  

Then, I had a second meal at my sister's, we had chili. So, I ate twice. I was so full, and tired, and sluggish all afternoon, and then I realized I only had a seven-and-a-half-hour window. It felt like such a long drawn out window to me. So, I feel better when I have an afternoon/evening eating window with one real meal in it. But that doesn't mean that everybody will. Like Melanie, you feel better with a late-night window. I would not feel good with a late-night window.  

So, April, I love that you figured out that a morning window is really where you feel the best. Everyone who feels like, they can't find their ideal fasting time and eating time, tweak it till it feels good. That really is the key. April's body let her know that it didn't feel good when she tried to have the evening eating window. I love that that she figured it out. 

Melanie Avalon: Actually, we're talking about ZOE. The feeling I had-- because for me, if I were to do earlier eating window and then have to fast after it's so miserable for me.  

Gin Stephens: Me too.  

Melanie Avalon: I had that thought while doing ZOE because you have to-- with the muffins, you've to eat one muffin, then you've to fast four hours, and then you've to eat another muffin, then you've to fast two hours. I just remember thinking like, "This is the hardest thing I've ever done." I fast every day for almost probably 20 hours, but fasting especially after having eaten something like this only muffin, but I was like, "Wow, this is "me trying to fast," and this is so hard." I was just thinking if this was my only experience with something that I perceived as "fasting," I'd be like, "This is the hardest thing ever. I can't do this." It would be the same reaction that April had.  

Gin Stephens: Whenever I tried to have an early window like I would be fine. I would feel more sluggish, then I'd be fine. But then by the time 8 PM rolls around, I'm like starving, starving and miserable and have to eat. If I ate a really big meal at 9 AM, I'd be fine for a while. I wouldn't feel my best throughout the day, but I'd be okay. But then later, I would be so hungry, I would eat again. So, that would be that. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: The weird thing for me is like, I have to eat to fall asleep. Yeah, I do not sleep well on an empty stomach. 

Gin Stephens: But I love what April said. She said, "I wonder if this is part of why fasting doesn't quite work for some people." Yeah, I have a feeling that if someone feels like it doesn't work, it's because they haven't found the plan that feels right to them yet.  

Melanie Avalon: I agree.  

Gin Stephens: 90% of the time when someone tells me, "Fasting didn't work," I say, "What did you drink?" [laughs] during their fast and they tell me-- There's somebody local that is at this store that Chad I go to, and we went back in there the other day and she's like, "Hey, I tried that fasting thing and it didn't work for me." I'm like, "All right, well, first of all, how long did you give it?" She said, "One week." I'm like, "Well, okay, that wasn't really very long." I said, "What were you drinking?" She's like, "Well, I like to put sugar free creamer in my coffee." I'm like, "Well, okay, let's examine this." I said, "Did you by any chance get my book and read it?" She's like, "No." I'm like, "Well, I would start there. Try that." You got to understand the clean fast and she's very open to it. We had a great conversation, but she was not fast and clean, and she gave herself a week, and she felt terrible. But as I would predict that if you're drinking coffee with sugar free creamer for a week, you're going to feel awful. Oh, anyway, that was good feedback. Thank you, April.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you, April. 

Hi, friends. Okay, we have thrilling news about Joovv. They have new devices and we have a discount. Yes, a discount, no longer a free gift, a discount. As you guys know, there are a few non-negotiables in my personal daily routine. I focus on what and when I eat every single day. And I also focus on my daily dose of healthy light through Joovv’s red light therapy devices. Guys, I use my Joovv all the time. Red light therapy is one of the most effective health modalities you can use in your home. I've personally seen so many health benefits, I find it incredible for regulating my circadian rhythm, helping my mood, boosting my thyroid, smoothing my skin. And I've also used it on multiple occasions for targeted pain relief. Anyone who's familiar with red light therapy, pretty much knows that Joovv is the leading brand. They pioneered this technology, and they were the first ones to isolate red and near-infrared light and make it accessible and affordable for in-home use.  

Since then, they've remained the most innovative, forward-thinking light therapy brands out there. And we're so excited because Joovv just launched their next generation of devices and they've made huge upgrades to what was already a really incredible system. Their new devices are sleeker, they're up to 25% lighter, and they all have the same power that we've come to expect from them. They've also intensified their coverage area, so you can stand as much as three times further away from the device and still get the recommended dosage. They've also upgraded the setup for the new devices with quick, easy mounting options, so your new Joovv can fit just about any space. And the new devices include some pretty cool new features, things like their Recovery Plus mode, which utilizes pulsing technology to give yourselves an extra boost to recovery from a tough workout with rejuvenating near-infrared light.  

And this is my personal favorite update. So, for those of us who like to use Joovv devices to wind down at night, they now have an ambient mode that creates a calming lower intensity of light at night. Guys, I am so excited about this. Using this light at night is way healthier than bright blue light from all of our screens, and much more in line with your circadian rhythm. I was using my current Joovv devices at night anyway to light my whole apartment, so this new ambient mode is really going to be a game-changer for me. Of course, you still get the world-class customer service from your helpful, friendly Joovv team. So, if you're looking for a new Joovv device for your home, we have some very exciting news. You can go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST. You'll get an exclusive discount on Joovv’s newest devices. Yes, discount, I said it. That's J-O-O-V-V dotcom, forward slash, I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. Exclusions apply. And this is for a limited time only. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show. 

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Michelle, and the subject is "fasting insulin and fasting glucose." She says, "Hi, Gin and Melanie. I love listening to your podcast. Thank you for all you do. My question is about insulin and glucose. I've been doing IF for one and a half years now and I love it. I've always had high blood sugar since as long as I can remember. I was hoping that IF would help me with that, but it's still high. I just got bloodwork done last week and my fasting insulin was great. It was three, but my fasting blood glucose was 130 and my HbA1c was 6.3, which is what it's always been close to.  

I'm just confused as to why my fasting insulin was so good, but my blood glucose in HbA1c were still so high. I try to eat low carb, but lately I would say I'm eating a moderate carb diet. I probably should eat low carb. I just don't like feeling restricted and I work out a lot. So, I justify being able to eat some carbs. Also, I find that when I have a few alcoholic drinks, I crave carbs like crazy, it's really strange. Thank you for your help," Michelle. I want to throw in there. Yeah, if I have too much alcohol, I start eating just everything that's around. It lowers my inhibitions to all food. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it can lower inhibitions and then it can also drop blood sugar. So, then you're craving carbs-- This is a great question from Michelle. I'm not prescribing this as this is what Michelle has. But this profile of low insulin, high blood sugar, high HbA1c, that's like type 2 diabetes realm. Because that's not having enough insulin to deal with carbs and always having high blood sugar and high HbA1c. 

Gin Stephens: Yep, I was thinking that exact same thing. Not enough insulin to do the job. 

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. So, clearly, she got this done through a doctor. I'm really curious what her doctor thought about all of that. But this would be a situation, again, not a doctor, but I do think it's a concerning situation to be have those high fasting blood glucose and that high HbA1c, especially for--she said it's like been a thing for a long time. Ironically, so we often talk-- or I at least often talk about how you can potentially get really good insulin and blood sugar control on like high carb, low fat diets or things like that. But if you have this situation where you're not clearing carbs, I would work with a doctor, I would really consider maybe a low carb or a ketogenic diet. I would look into it further basically because it's a bit concerning. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. There comes a point with type 2 diabetes where you're not controlling your blood sugar, so your body stops making so much insulin, right?  

Melanie Avalon: Your beta cells and the pancreas are not producing insulin.  

Gin Stephens: Right. Then, you would have a low level of insulin and you might think, "Oh, that's really good." But really that's not, not a good sign. We've said before, yeah, low fasted insulin is good, but not always, not if you've got other things. If it's low because your pancreas is not working properly then that's a different situation. So, yeah, I think low insulin and really high blood glucose is just like you said, Melanie, that's something that I would dig into, let your doctor figure out.  

Melanie Avalon: Or I said type 2, it's really-- it would be type 1 diabetes. 

Gin Stephens: Well, it's like type 2, you are type 2 and then it like-- Do they say that it converts to type 1? I don't really know what they say. Do they change your diagnosis when your pancreas is no longer working?  

Melanie Avalon: Then there's also like type 3 diabetes.  

Gin Stephens: It's like a progression. You know what I mean? I'm not an expert in this.  

Melanie Avalon: There's like type 1.5.  

Gin Stephens: But it's like a progression. You're type 2 diabetic because you have high levels of insulin, but then over time your pancreas stops working because it's burned out. I don't know that's not like the medical term for it, maybe it is. Then your pancreas stops functioning properly, and then you have to start-- you're type 2 diabetic, but now you're insulin dependent. So, basically, Michelle, it's really complicated. You see what we're talking in circles a little bit around it. We're not endocrinologists, and there's a lot of factors, and so I would work with a doctor or endocrinologist, somebody who can pinpoint this and see what's going on. Make sure your pancreas is functioning properly because as we both have said, we're not doctors, but you may not be producing enough insulin to get your glucose down. 

Melanie Avalon: So, basically like type 1 is autoimmune related, so the beta cells are being attacked by the body and you're not producing the insulin that you need, and then type 2 is more lifestyle driven? 

Gin Stephens: It progresses.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, type 2 does not become type 1?  

Gin Stephens: No, but type 2 progresses to the point that you are insulin dependent like my dad, okay? My dad, type 2 diabetic, eventually became insulin dependent.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: Because it like wore out. That's where I was using the terminology. I don't know what the correct medical terminology is. But it's like it wore out his pancreas. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. Either way, the presentation of low insulin, high blood glucose, high HbA1c would most likely signify. If you just put that on paper, that's what type 1 diabetes looks like compared to type 2 diabetes where you have high insulin, high blood sugar, high--  

Gin Stephens: Right. Well, that's true. Unless you get to the point where your pancreas is not producing insulin at all, which that's the part that's-- [laughs] I don’t know what they call that. What do they call that? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm not sure. The insulin being low in the presence of the high blood sugar, high blood glucose, that would be like a presentation of type 1 diabetes. Regardless, I'm really curious what your doctor said. So, you might want to keep monitoring this and work with a doctor, and yeah, definitely monitor it. I'm glad she asked about it because I can see how this would be a major misconception because we talk so much about how low insulin is good. But the context is super key and if you have low insulin and you're not releasing enough insulin to deal with your carb load and it's building up that's a major problem. 

Gin Stephens: Again, not doctors, but I did just real quick find a study called Mechanisms of Beta Cell Death in type 2 diabetes. I don't know what the exact terminology should be, but it definitely can happen as it progresses.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and there's actually-- and I just looked this up because I was thinking it was a thing. There's also type 1.5 diabetes and that's latent autoimmune diabetes in adults. It's the one that shares characteristics of both type 1 and type 2. It's usually diagnosed during adulthood, it sets in gradually, like type 2, but unlike type 2, it's actually an autoimmune disease and that's where your beta cells stop functioning. So, I am not diagnosing but you might want to approach your doctor with curiosity about type 1.5 diabetes.  

Gin Stephens: But if you get a fasted insulin level that's low, and your blood glucose is low, your fasted blood glucose and A1c is good, that's not something to worry about. It's only when insulin is low and your glucose is high that you might be like, "Huh." Your body, if it were working properly would pump out more insulin to lower your blood sugar because that's what your body wants to do. That's how it's designed to work. So, something's keeping it from doing that.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. All right, we talked around and around that one. 

Gin Stephens: [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I did a Q&A episode. I recorded it. I haven't released it yet with NutriSense CGM with Kara Collier there and she's the founder. I learned so much about the studies about different levels and if you have certain spikes how that correlates to health and longevity. It was really, really fascinating. So, I don't think it'll be out by the time this airs. Point of all that is that it's very fascinating what we can learn from blood sugar levels and HbA1c. But in any case, something is definitely going on here with the insulin.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay.  

Gin Stephens: All right. Do we have time for one more quick one? 

Melanie Avalon: So, we have question from John. The subject is "fasting," and John says, "Hello, my name is John. I'm 57 years young, and I've been doing intermittent fasting for 31 days now. I do the 16:8. I eat mostly vegetables with about four to five ounces of protein per meal if I can. My eating window is from noon until eight. I've had increased energy, but for the last couple of days seemed to be getting tired around 3 o'clock. Should I go from 16:8 to 18:6? I'm losing weight on the 16:8, but I don't know if I should make my fast longer. What do you think? I'm reading Fast. Feast. Repeat. Great book," John. 

Gin Stephens: Thank you, John, and it's been about a month since you wrote this question. So, hopefully you pushed through that. But this is what we find as your body's getting to the end of the adjustment period. Very, very common. Whenever that might be, you've been having an eight-hour window. So, as you get to the end of the adjustment period, your body is about ready to flip that metabolic switch. It's very, very typical to have like a lull, and they're like a feeling of decreased energy, like you're moving around through Jell-O a little bit, and then you get to the other side, and there's ketosis, and then you feel better, and there's the energy, again.  

You asked if you should go from 16:8 to 18:6, you know, that was one way to push through. Just give yourself just a little more fasting to push through that, and then it's so much better on the other side. There's classic adjustment period description right there. The reason it took John, 31 days, because he's been doing 16:8. Had he been doing 19:5, he might have hit that wall in week two to three. It just really depends on your own personal metabolic factors, so many factors. Some people might not get that adjustment phase lull till week six.  

Melanie Avalon: Perfect.  

Gin Stephens: You were doing keto before, right? You were already fat adapted.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: It's the same with me. I went from summer of 2014, I had been doing keto all summer, we've talked about this before. So, I was fat adapted from keto from the fat from the keto, but not losing any weight. Then, I reintroduced carbs and started intermittent fasting and then bam. So, I didn't have a lull. That was the only time I was able to stick to it too. I felt so much better with the fasting and adding back in the carbs, and I immediately started to see weight loss of about a pound a week. But I was already fat adapted. So, yep. 

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you have your own questions for the show, you can email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode239. Those show notes will have a full transcript. So, super helpful and we will put links to everything that we talked about. Then lastly, you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. I think that is all of the things.  

Gin Stephens: Yep.  

Melanie Avalon: Anything from you, Gin. 

Gin Stephens: No. I got nothing.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Oh, I will say, I'm very happy. The weather seems to maybe be getting a little bit cooler, maybe? 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm not.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. [laughs] I was so excited. 

Gin Stephens: I'm going to the beach next week. So, I hope it's warm. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. I'm so excited. Have fun. 

Gin Stephens: I don't care if it's warm. It's still the beach. I'm still going to look at it and hear the ocean and I can't wait. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm ready for it to be freezing.  

Gin Stephens: No, no.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.  

Gin Stephens: All right, bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Nov 07

Episode 238: Bingeing, Over Restriction, Shorter Fasts, Fasting For Women, mTor Activation, High Protein Vs. Low Protein, Medical Tests, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 238 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get A FREE Holiday Turkey In Your First Box!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get A FREE Holiday Turkey In Your First Box!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quizmelanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

The Delay, Don't Deny Community

Stay Up To Date With All The News And Pre-Order Info About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase!

Listener Feedback: Carre - Episode #214 Binging Question

Listener Feedback: Evelyn - follow up; donating blood

Listener Q&A: Piia - Too much fasting for my body?

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode - #30: William Shewfelt And Ted Naiman

Listener Q&A: Kathy - Tests?

Go To insidetracker.com/melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE30 For 30% Off All Tests Sitewide!

Get 30% Off At Home Tests For Iron, Vitamin D, COVID, And More, With The Code IFPodcast30 At trylgc.com/ifpodcast!

Try Zoe at ginstephens.com/zoe!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 238 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get a 10- to 14-pound free range humanely raised Turkey for free. Yes, for free. We are so honored to be supported by a company called ButcherBox. It is so, so important to us to buy high quality meat that you can trust. It tastes better, it's more ethical, it's more sustainable, it's truly what benefits not only ourselves, but the planet. Friends. I've been doing a lot of research on transparency in the food industry and it is shocking what goes down. What you see on the shelves at the grocery store can be very misleading with practices that are not benefiting ourselves or the planet. So, if you're tired of searching for 100% grass-fed beef, free range organic chicken, wild caught seafood, and more you've got to try ButcherBox. Their entire sourcing is actually done holistically. They keep the farmer, the planet, the animal, and your family all in mind to deliver products directly to you cutting out the middleman of the grocery store to save you money and get you quality meat and seafood that you can trust plus their products taste amazing. 

Oh, my goodness, friends. I am a steak girl. ButcherBox filet is one of the best filets I have ever tasted in my entire life. I recently gave my family some of their grass-fed, grass-finished beef, and my mom told me it was the best ground beef she had ever tasted. My brother also adores their bacon. Yep, if you want pastured heritage breed bacon that is sugar and nitrate free, you can get that at ButcherBox. I'm also a scallop girl and their wild caught scallops are delicious and I can finally feel good about the transparency with that because friends the seafood industry is very, very sketchy. A 2013 Oceana study found that one third of seafood in grocery stores and restaurants was mislabeled. Farmed salmon is often labeled as wild salmon and other fish species are just complete lies, it is honestly very shocking. Every month, ButcherBox members can get a curated selection of high-quality meat shipped straight to their home. Those boxes contain between eight to 14 pounds of meat depending on your box type and what you want. They're packed fresh and shipped frozen with free shipping for the continental US. 

And friends with the holidays upon us, how hard is it to find humanely raised free range turkeys without additives. Just go look at those turkeys at the grocery store and look at their ingredient list. It shouldn't be just turkey, it's not usually just turkey. They often plump up those turkeys at the grocery store to make them weigh more and those solutions are full of additives that you do not want in your body. But we've got you covered. You can skip the lines for your Thanksgiving turkey. This holiday ButcherBox is proud to give new members a free 10 to 14-pound turkey. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to sign up. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to receive a free 10 to 14-pound turkey in your first box. I'll put all this information in the show notes.  

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds including endocrine disrupters which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare and makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. 

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show.  

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 238 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: I am great. Long time no talk. 

Melanie Avalon: I know--. I know, like two weeks, maybe? 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I was in Arizona for five days for a conference. It was amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. Anything you'd like to share about it?  

Gin Stephens: Well, I do want to share one thing that was really cool. You know all about the Delay, Don't Deny social network. I talked about the issues that we were having with technology, and why we switched platforms, right? So, we switched to a different platform. Circle is the name of it. And gosh, it's been I think like almost a month since we made the switch to the new platform and started migrating different members over. For anybody who wants to know more about that, it's a ginstephens.com/community. But this is what is so very exciting. After we made the mistake and ended upon the wrong platform, by the way, the conference I went to was for healthcare professionals, wellness professionals that sort of thing, and a lot of physicians there, but one of the main mantras of this community is take action even if your action is imperfect action, that made me feel better about making a bad choice the first time, take action even if it's imperfect action. So, that's what we did.  

We took imperfect action, but then we were like, "Oh, we got to do something different." So, we changed the platforms. But this entire health and wellness community announced at the conference that they are also leaving Facebook. Leaving it completely and going to the same exact platform that I've already moved to. It's so exciting for like many reasons. Number one, we looked at everything and we realized the place we had chosen wasn't working out technologically. We looked at everything out there, and I'm like, "I really don't want to make another mistake," because I owe it to the community to not make a mistake. So, we looked at everything and this is the one that felt right to me. So, I'm so glad that they agree.  

But the other thing that's so exciting is that they are very powerful in the health and wellness world, this community, and there is 0% chance they will allow the platform to be buggy or have technological problems. So, I have now got the power of this huge group. They met with the founders. They're not going to put up with bugginess. So, I just feel like all the mistakes we made with choosing the wrong platform, the technological problems, all that, I just felt like this big relief off my shoulders like, "Okay, not only are we in good hands, but we've got the backing of a very powerful community that is not going to let it be bad." So, oof. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, that is nice. That's very exciting.  

Gin Stephens: Isn't that nice? Yeah? I was like--, I just feel like this is just felt like a new beginning.  

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And so people are already loving the community and that makes me happy. It's been a relief because you don't want to bring something to people and then it's like frustrating. Because you feel so responsible even though every decision we made was in good faith. We're walking away from a contract that was tens of thousands of dollars because it was such a bad platform. You just sometimes have to just cut your losses, but you just really don't want to make a mistake again. So, anyway. 

Melanie Avalon: The pressure is enough the first time around. So, having a knock on while the first time-- I can just imagine the pressure was huge to find the right platform. 

Gin Stephens: The community was amazing. People tried so hard to connect on it even with the frustrations of the-- When you're trying to post on the live feed and it jumps and you can't even see what you're trying to comment on. People were amazing and the way they connected, they had Zoom's like the people from England would get together, and we would have coffee and so people made the best of it and I cannot be more grateful.  

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.  

Gin Stephens: But now, we're somewhere good. [laughs] Anyway, that was it. Sorry. 

Melanie Avalon: So, for listeners in the show notes at ifpodcast.com/episode238. We'll put links to the new platform. 

Gin Stephens: So, what's up with you? 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, so many things. Three really quick things to share. One, I interviewed--, I already told you this, but we've been wanting to interview Robb Wolf on this show for a deep dive into electrolytes. So, it's really crazy, Gin, how it worked out. We had him booked and Gin just happened to be gone, and so it's awkward sometimes for three of us on an episode. So, we're like, "Okay, I'll just do the interview." 

Gin Stephens: We'll just do it.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: It was exactly the right time because I was in a whole other state. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, it was perfect. The episode is two hours. So, for listeners if you missed episode 237, definitely listen to it. And I already told Gin this, but I had an incredible moment at the end because I almost started crying because I was telling him just how great, oh, I'm starting to cry now. Just how grateful I am for him, because reading all of his books, like reading The Paleo Solution, it's the reason I changed my diet, and it's the reason I became really obsessed with how food affects our bodies, and then I just had been following him since then and that was around 2012-ish. So, I was saying that, I was like, "I'm not going to cry," and then he was like, "Oh, I might cry," and I thought he was kidding, but then when he responded to me, he actually sounded teary. So, it was just an amazing moment. It was really amazing. But the episode was amazing. We answered so many listener questions. So, it's not just an interview. We probably answered like 30 listener questions from you guys. So, definitely check that out. That was one.  

Two was, I posted this on my Instagram, an update about Whole Foods guy, and I got so many-- People are so invested in this, Gin.  

Gin Stephens: I believe it. Yeah.  

\Melanie Avalon: He might be listening now. I don't know--. I don't know. So, I teased the story on my Instagram and 30 people were like, "Tell me what happened." So, I went into Whole Foods this weekend and he was there. So, I just walked straight up to him. Gin, you're in my head now. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, my God, I love it. I love it. 

Melanie Avalon: I walked straight up to him, and I was like, "Hi." [laughs] I was like, "I have to tell you something." [laughs] He was like, "What?" I was like, "Well, I'm still super embarrassed about how I just walked up to you that time." He was like, "Don't be embarrassed." I was like, "Well, also, I'm a podcaster. So, I might have shared that story on the podcast. So, it's possible that 50,000 people now know about you." But I was like, "Don't worry. They don't know your name." He thought, it was hysterical and asked how he could listen.  

Gin Stephens: That's so funny. Hello, Whole Foods guy. 

Melanie Avalon: He's listening. Yeah, he was like, "How can I listen? I was like, "Well-- so yeah." So, that's that--. Then the third thing is that, I have a super exciting announcement. I think I can announce this now. You know how with the serrapeptase supplement that we were developing. I'd have to text the guy making this after and make sure this is okay. You know how I was saying that we've been researching all the serrapeptases on the market. All of them had fillers, it's sneaky. So, we were trying to formulate it without fillers and we've been doing all these lab tests, and basically, the issue-- So, I've learned so much about the supplement industry.  

Some supplements basically require--, there's two things. There're fillers in case people are curious. Fillers that's just to fill up the capsule. So, some supplements, the actual material, the active ingredient is not big enough volume wise to fill up a capsule. So, it needs to filler. Some ingredients and/or some ingredients need a, what's the word?  

Gin Stephens: Binding agent?  

Melanie Avalon: So, it doesn't clump in the machine. There's a word for it and I'm forgetting. It's basically like a binding agent, and then some need both. Serrapeptase needs--, I think it needs both. So, it was really important to me to find because a lot of supplements use steroids, which have been linked to toxicity, palmitates, which have been linked to toxicity rise which is pretty benign, but some people have gluten allergies, you don't have a problem with that. Cellulose often, but that can't really be used as the binding agent, a lubricator. That's it. Its lubrication. So, I was like, "What do we do?" So, we tried so many things, and I'm so happy.  

We're going to be able to make it with pure MCT. We're going to have to do it in small batches like they're going to have to reformulate the machines, especially, to make this. But pure MCT oil was the only thing I was really comfortable with oil wise, and we think it's going to make it--. We don't know, but it might make it more bioavailable as well. I'm just so excited. So, friends, this is going to be literally the best serrapeptase on the market. The cleanest "fillers" and the only one in a glass bottle. Okay, that was long but I'm just so excited. [giggles] Yeah, so, if listeners would like to get on the pre-order list, because we're anticipating that it's probably going to sell out. The link for that is melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase. S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E, and we're going to do an amazing preorder special, probably tiered. So, basically, the first X amount of people who order will get it at the lowest price ever, and then it'll go up from there, but super excited.  

But really quick, what is serrapeptase? If you're not familiar, it's a supplement created by the Japanese silkworm. You take it in a fasted state, it breaks down proteins that build up in your body. So, it can address things like allergies. If your immune system is reacting to protein buildup, so, it clears my sinuses like none other. It can breakdown fatty deposits, studies have shown, it can help reduce cholesterol, breakdown amyloid plaque, which is found in Alzheimer's, breakdown fibroids, it's an anti-inflammatory, and it can rival NSAIDs for pain reduction, so things like Advil. It's amazing. I'm sorry that was long, but I'm really excited. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm excited for you. I know, it feels great to be figuring it out, and there's just so much to learn along the way, right? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm learning so much. So, I'm want to make all the supplements now. If you had to make a supplement, what would you make? 

Gin Stephens: Well, I guess, a magnesium maybe? I don't know, that's the one [laughs] that I've taken regularly for so long, and it's made such a big difference in my life with sleep and everything. So, it would be magnesium.  

Melanie Avalon: You know what, that's actually--, this was not planned, that was perfect. Listeners, there is an ad running on this show for BiOptimizers and I actually just recorded it. So, it's really fresh on my mind. 

Gin Stephens: And they've got a great magnesium. So, maybe, I don't need to make one. But they've got a great one. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Well. Yeah, so, literally, the ad that's running-- this episode airs November 1st and they're running a go find the ad listeners and listen to it because it's all about their Black Friday special, which is--  

Gin Stephens: Oh, it's a good special. Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's a really good special and they're focusing on magnesium, and they're giving away lots of free stuff. So, check out that ad.  

Gin Stephens: The other thing I would make, if I could make a supplement would be essential vitamins, but out of Whole Foods. You know the ones that are made out of Whole Foods instead of like weird synthetic things, because we get nutrients from food. So, I would do something like that if I could, but things like that exist already.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, now, and I know so obviously, the supplements I take, they exist, and I take them, and I feel well. I actually don't feel good about the serrapeptases now. People are asking me now until mine comes out which one to take and I'm like, "Well, now, I can't recommend any of them, because I know what I know." 

Gin Stephens: That is one reason I stopped taking serrapeptase completely. I'll be honest with you.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? 

Gin Stephens: Well, because I just like, I'm very, very choosy, you know? I'm so choosy about what I will take and I don't trust. I do not trust. But oh, oh, oh, I haven't said this yet. I actually got to meet Wade Lightheart face to face at the conference. He was at the conference. So, it was Todd White from Dry Farm Wines. I got to meet him face to face at the conference. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I'd like, "Hello, Wade, nice to meet you." [laughs] Melanie says, "Hello." 

Melanie Avalon: I know. Oh, wow. 

Gin Stephens: We drank Dry Farm Wines the whole time by the way.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I bet.  

Gin Stephens: They sponsored the conference and that was the wine they served. So, only Dry Farm Wines was available. 

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. Oh, I love that.  

Gin Stephens: I know. It was so fun.  

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, Wade is one of the founders of BiOptimizers, and Todd is the founder of Dry Farm Wines. Oh, that's amazing. 

Gin Stephens: Todd was running around pouring everybody wine. I mean it was great. 

Melanie Avalon: I bet. [laughs] Yeah, that's what I was going to say was like, really the only brands I really trust are BiOptimizers. I like ThorneI like pure encapsulations. None of them make a pure serrapeptase. But I basically just want to make everything that I'm currently taking, make my own version. 

Gin Stephens: I don't blame you. Not one single bit.  

Melanie Avalon: I might as well, then I'll feel really good about what I'm taking.  

Gin Stephens: Well, because you'll know exactly what's in it.  

Today's episode is sponsored by Prep Dish. I want you to think through your day. What are the hectic daily moments you dread? For many of us, it's 5 PM when you realize the dinner hour has somehow snuck up on you again and you have no plan. Naturally, this is also the time young kiddos start losing it. Trying to throw together a healthy meal amidst that chaos is just plain hard. Even though, my kids are grown, I remember those days well. Often, I would just hit the drive through again. Prep Dish is the best way for busy people to get healthy meals on the table without the stress. Subscribers receive an email every week with an organized grocery list and instructions for prepping meals ahead of time. This means dinnertime is super quick and easy every day.  

The best part, Prep Dish has weekly superfast menus. This means in addition to gluten free paleo, and low carb, or keto menus, subscribers now receive a new superfast menu each and every week. These menus require only an hour to prep the week's food, and we're not talking boring pasta or plain chicken. Superfast menus include items like shrimp tostadas, slow cooker sausage and kale soup in smothered mushroom chicken with mashed potatoes. The founder, Allison is offering listeners a free two-week trial to try it out. I mean, what's better than free? Nothing. Check out prepdish.com/ifpodcast for this amazing deal. Again, that's prepdish.com/ifpodcast for your first two weeks free. And now back to the show.  

Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?  

Gin Stephens: Yes. Let's get started.  

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off we have some listener feedback. The subject is: 'Episode 214 binging question.' And Carrie says, "Thank you so much. You've answered my question about binging. When opening my window on Episode 214 and your feedback was wonderful." A side note. Gin, it's exciting when we get feedback saying that what we suggested worked, because normally we don't hear back. So, it's like, "Well, I hope that helped." [laughs] She says, "Melanie, I listened to the Glenn Livingston Podcast, and I just purchased his book and can't wait to read it. What a helpful guy he is." 

Gin Stephens: Can I say a little caveat about that? Not everyone resonates with his book. I got a personal message from somebody the other day. She's like, "I read it and it didn't really click with me." [laughs] She's just like, "Is it just me?" I'm like, "No." It is the right message for some people, but not the right message for others, the way that he phrases things. Some people it rubs in the wrong way and other people, it's exactly what they need to hear. So, I just wanted to put that out there. So, if you are someone who's read it and you're like, "That just rubbed me the wrong way," that's okay.  

Melanie Avalon: It's very interface and it's a very intense approach to everything. If it works for you, it works really well. It could be a game changer.  

Gin Stephens: Some people need that kind of tough love, right?  

Melanie Avalon: It's also a concept that may or may not even work for people, but it works really well for me, and it works really well for a lot of people. But if it doesn't help you, it's like anything. Everybody's unique and individual.  

Gin Stephens: Exactly. But if you're somebody who read it and you're like, "What? This isn't--" Just know, that's okay. It's not the approach that works for everybody. But for the people that it does work for, it's fabulous. 

Melanie Avalon: I think the Kindle version is either always free and/or his website. You can always get it for free somewhere.  

Gin Stephens: Like through Kindle Unlimited?  

Melanie Avalon: I think so. Yes. So, I believe the Kindle version usually will always be free. It's always accessible somehow. So, nothing to lose their money wise. Back to Carrie's feedback. She says, "I've been playing around with my IF window now, and on days where I am training more, I will open sooner if I feel like I need to. I typically have a window now from one to seven. Some days, I fast longer and some days, I open it at 11 AM. I took Gin's advice and started to eat for fuel and look at food as fuel for my workouts, and I now perform so much better. I eat lunch and dinner now, and we'll have fruits and veggies in between to snack on usually closer to when I open my window. Every day, I now open my window with a greens powder mixed with some electrolytes and one teaspoon of apple cider vinegar to help start the digestion process. This has helped so much in addition to playing around with the window.  

On days where I am hungrier, I just eat more and earlier, not being as strict has helped a bunch. I'm 5'4" and will be 24 next month, and I've gotten down to 130 pounds and I feel great. I do hope to lose five more pounds, but if I don't that's okay. I might just throw my scale away like Gin. LOL. I feel great and have been swimming, biking, and running faster than I have in years, my clothes fit better, and I even fit into an old pair of size two Express jeans from my freshman year of college that had been in the back of my closet for years now. I still do love my sweets, but I do not crave them like I did before. And if for some reason I do, then I'll usually go ahead and have something, but it doesn't lead to that binge effect anymore. Thank you both so much for all your wisdom and knowledge. You've helped me so much these past few years and I am such a fan of IF. Definitely the lifestyle for me and I am now trying to convince my boyfriend to do it. Thanks again, Carrie, and she said that yes, we did pronounce it right the first time. Awesome. Shall we go on to our next feedback? 

Gin Stephens: Yep. We have something from Evelyn and the subject is: 'Follow up donating blood.' "Hello, ladies. I just heard my question being read on Episode 229. Then, also the RN reply on 233. Thank you for filling this topic. Ladies you said you wished you knew what my experience was then after giving blood that day. My first time giving when they almost turned me away when just fine. I was fasted and never had any trouble. At this point, I've given blood both fasted and not fasted. Meaning, I ate a small breakfast so that I can honestly say, "yes, I've eaten, LOL." Both ways work for me. I don't get dizzy or have symptoms later in the day. I like what you said, "Do what's best for you. Once again, listen to your body." Also, dizziness is not about blood sugar, but rather blood pressure. Yes, that makes sense now that Melanie says that, but I was focused on the "need to eat."  

The mission behind giving blood is bigger than my need for keeping the fast. So, if needed four times a year, I can break my fast early or like you suggested, book my appointment later in the day. What an easy solution. It was also nice to hear from the RN and her input too. Again, ladies many blessings to each of you as you continue this good work. Sincerely, Evelyn." 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, I love this feedback from Evelyn. It's definitely really unique. I still encourage people if they're at all nervous about fainting that they do eat before, especially, since I fainted. Again, I'm really struggling now, having fainted recently, I'm so worried, it's going to happen again. For example, yesterday I did Emsculpt. Have you heard of Emsculpt?  

Gin Stephens: Not really.  

Melanie Avalon: It's muscle stimulation. So, it's the equivalent--. I'm doing it on my biceps and triceps. It's the equivalent of 20,000 curls in a 30-minute session. It stimulates your muscle because your brain subconsciously limits your muscles from going to their full, there's a word for it. Basically, their full potential of what they can do. If you're doing muscle building it bypasses that. So, it's like a deeper stimulation that you could ever get doing it on your own. It builds muscle just laying there. It was a little bit unpleasant and not something that would make you--, I didn't faint. But it's not something that would ever have triggered thoughts of fainting or anything like that. But now that I recently did, I'm like, "Oh gosh" I started feeling like a little weird. I was like, "What if I faint?" I need to work with my therapist on this, because now it's going to be like a trigger. Now whenever I start feeling like a little off, I'm like, "Oh, no. [laughs] What if I pass out?" So, you said, you had not fainted, right?  

Gin Stephens: No, I've never fainted.  

Melanie Avalon: Huh. Yeah, so, I'm really happy for Evelyn. [laughs] She can make it. The feedback that we've been getting from most people have been people who successfully give blood. I don't think we've received any feedback from people who have fainted giving blood. But what's our official recommendation? Do what feels right for you? 

Gin Stephens: Well, my official recommendation is, I am not a giving blood expert. So, I would always just ask them, "What do you want me to do?" And I would do that. But if you find that you give it in the fasting state and it works well, who am I to say not to do that also? [laughs]. So, that's what I always say. Because I don't want to give you a recommendation, and then you faint, you're like, "Gin said, I could do it." No, I'm not saying you can do it. I'm not saying to do it, I'm not saying not to do it. Ask the blood donation center, ask your doctor, but if you do decide to do it, pay attention to your body. They've got food there if you need it.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, they do.  

Gin Stephens: Right? I think they do. They've got snacks if you need it, they give you snacks after you're done.  

Melanie Avalon: They do recommend to eat before, right?  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Because she said-- 

Gin Stephens: Probably, yeah, I think they do. I'm never ever, ever going to give someone the advice to ignore what a medical professional in the field tells you. Never. Even if I in my mind thought they might be wrong, I would not say ignore that. I might say try to ask someone else and see. That's what a second opinion is all about. There are many things that if we ask five doctors, we will get five different recommendations. But the key is that they are the one supervising you and they're also trained to do that.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I think you said that well.  

Gin Stephens: So, my official recommendation is that "Don't ask me." [laughs] Ask somebody, who that is their job. Now, if you'd like to talk about whether you should have your child tested for the gifted program or analysis, no, I'm kidding. [laughs] By the way, Abel James just interviewed me. You knew this because I told you for his podcast, it's coming out near the end of the year at some point. He's like, "Let's talk about the gifted program." And I thought, that was fun.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?  

Gin Stephens: He wanted to talk about school, and education a little bit, kids. Yeah. I love talking. No one ever asks me that. Wait, does he have kids? 

Melanie Avalon: No. But he has a really wonderful like poetry book. That would be great to read kids. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, I didn't know that. He is a great guy. That was super nice. You said he was, you were right.  

Melanie Avalon: He's the guy we're like--, "He's the nicest guy." But really and then when you meet him, you're like, "Oh, he really is." 

Gin Stephens: He's so nice. His voice is just cheerful. Every word sounds like a smile. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. [laughs] I am like, "And his voice is the perfect voice for announcer type." It's  just a very beautiful voice. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Anyway, he was so nice, and he had a copy--. Did I tell you he had a copy of Clean(ish) and I haven't even seen one yet?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, and Gin doesn't even have a copy. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: No. I didn't even know that they were already printed up, and like this is the early reader edition. But usually, the author gets one pretty early, not other people. But I was like, "Let me say it." He held it up. It was beautiful. He said, he loved it. He loved Clean(ish). That made me so happy.  

Melanie Avalon: Wait, it comes out beginning of January, right?  

Gin Stephens: January 4th, yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Gin, we have to book you for my show.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I would love to.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Making a note. Can you send me a copy of the book? 

Gin Stephens: Well, probably, they can. [laughs] They could send it to Abel James. I'm going to be on Cynthia Thurlow's podcast soon, and I was like, "Let's get Cynthia a copy." They just sent her the electronic version. But I could get you the electronic version any time. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. If I can get both that'd be awesome, because like--  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. There's something about a paperback.  

Melanie Avalon: I like posting it on Instagram.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I'm so glad that he said he liked it. I figured if he hated it, he wouldn't have said anything. But the fact that he said he really liked, it was a good sign. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Yeah, and what I really loved was, I talked to Gin after that interview, and we were talking about the podcast high feeling, because with my other show, I'm interviewing people like Abel James all the time. So, I'm always getting this high. Gin got to experience it.  

Gin Stephens: Well, it's true. I'm on a lot of podcasts, but this was the first time I had been talking about Clean(ish). It was my first Clean(ish) interview, and I've been on other high-profile podcasts. But this was a pretty high profile one, and somebody that I admired because I remember him from back in the day when he was on that TV show, My Diet Is Better Than Yours. Did you watch that TV show? 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I thought it was on Fat-Burning Man TV show or something. 

Gin Stephens: No. He was on a reality show called My Diet Is Better Than Yours, and there were several experts with different diets, and his was intermittent fasting.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Now, it's coming back to me.  

Gin Stephens: This was a long time ago, and he didn't "win," but his guy lost more fat.  

Melanie Avalon: Right.  

Gin Stephens: So, [laughs] anyway, so, I was hoping it would win, because it was intermittent fasting. But we know there's a lot more to intermittent fasting than just what the scale says.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: That's when I first knew who he was, was only when he was on that TV show. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. So cool, so cool where everything is-- where we are now with everything. Love all of it.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Shall we go on to our next question?  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: So, this question comes from Pia. She's from Finland, ooh, and Pia says: "Too much fasting for my body?" Pia says, "Hi I've been fasting for two and a half years thanks to you both. Before that, I was always on some diet. I'm 42. Even though, I've never been more than maybe a little over five kilograms overweight and I felt miserable, I suppose that did more harm than good. My fasting journey even though, I love this lifestyle has been difficult since the very beginning, I have been all over the place and not found my long-term happy place. I started with 12 hours and very slowly moved to 14 to 15 hours of fasting. I felt great and lost five kilograms with that. After losing the weight, I started feeling off at the end of my fasts, get hot flashes and started gaining the weight back. I decided to move my windows and started breaking my fast about an hour after waking up and felt better with a morning/early afternoon window, maintained though.  

Since then, I have tried shorter fasts, 13 to 16 hours and longer ones, 17 to 20 hours. I seem to lose weight after lengthening my fast, but quite soon feel off, get the urge to binge in my eating window, and start gaining the weight back. The binging feels physical, not psychological. When I fast longer, I also feel a dip in my energy levels, I feel anxious and get wired, but tired when it's time to go to bed. That's the same feeling I get when I'm super stressed. Can it be that I have broken my body during the years of not listening to my body and even 16 hours is too much fasting for me right now? More importantly, how can I get my weight to moving down again without feeling burned out? I've been to the doctor, and I've been told I'm fine according to the Western Medical Standards, maybe just stressed if anything. I eat quite a healthy diet although I wonder if I eat enough. Can you please get into the details of fasting when overly stressed and all things, cortisol and hormones? I still feel so much better on this fasting struggle bus than before and want to continue feeling better and live longer and healthier, thanks, Pia from Finland. 

Gin Stephens: All right, this is a great question, and I think, Pia, the real issue is not whether you're doing too much fasting. The words too much fasting or what I want to take off the table, instead, I want you to focus on are you over restricting for your body? Because I think those are two different things. You can do 14 to 15 hours for example. No one would think that that was "too much fasting." However, if you are also not eating very much during the nine to 10 hours of eating, if you're also low calorie dieting in a 10-hour eating window, that's not good for your body. So really, I want you to ask yourself are you nourishing your body well during whatever eating window you're doing? I would suspect the answer is no. There are three clues I highlighted in your question that made me think you are not nourishing your body well enough.  

First of all, you said I wonder if I eat enough. If your inner voice is telling you that you're not eating enough, you probably are not eating enough and especially nutritious foods. The urge to binge, that you said you're having the urge to binge that is a classic sign that you're over restricting for your body. That wired but tired feeling, if I don't eat enough, like I was super busy the week before I went to Arizona because we had just launched the new community to open it up to people, and so, I had a million emails coming in all day long, I was recording a lot of podcasts, so I was trying to get that done because I was going to be gone, and so I had probably, I don't know, what, three days in a row of one-hour eating windows. That's just how it shook out. I did not have time to have a luxurious long snack and a meal like I normally do. So, I was barely having time to even cook dinner, much less eat it. I started to get that wired but tired feeling, and that just lets me know it's like extra ketosis. I like the feeling of ketosis I get during my fast every day, but this would like be after I'd eaten even. If I don't eat enough in my eating window, I feel that wired but tired crazy. It's like ketosis goes too far. So, it's like, "Ketosis, good, good, good, good, good. Oops, that's too much for me." That's the way my body lets me know. So, it lets me know that I need to increase what I'm eating.  

If you're having the urge to binge in your eating window, you're having a crazy wired but tired feeling that doesn't feel good, and you suspect you're not eating enough? I think the answer is you probably are not. Focus on nutrients. Prioritize, I know Melanie talks about protein all the time. Your body may be crying out for protein. Maybe, you're not eating enough of that. Increase your nutritious foods in general, and make sure that you feel satisfied and good. We can theorize about you know what your hormones, or cortisol, or all that might be doing, but we're just theorizing. You don't really know unless you start testing things. We might say maybe this is happening, but unless you have it tested, you're not going to know hormonally. But we do know, the female body doesn't do well with over restriction. Of course, the male body doesn't either. An interesting side note, Melanie. It was so interesting, I was the only intermittent fasting person really-- A lot of people at this conference were doing intermittent fasting. They just did it. That's how they live, a lot of people were doing it, especially, the doctors. But when we introduced ourselves to one another, we all said, "what do you do? What do you do?" It was fascinating. A lot of OB-GYNs were there, which was cool.  

Melanie Avalon: How many people were there?  

Gin Stephens: It was around 200. It was smaller than usual just because people are still not traveling quite as much. But a lot of people were there. They did a combo virtual and in person. Some people were participating on Zoom. So, it was more than that if you added up all the people that run Zoom. But whenever I would say, I am an author and a podcaster, intermittent fasting is what I talk about, they're like, "Yeah, but what about women?" Like almost every single person said, "Yeah, what about women?" I'm like, "Well, let me tell you about that." I told every single person that my philosophy is that for some reason we think that intermittent fasting is synonymous with the idea of over restriction. Really, you could over restrict in any length of window. Even if you're eating from sunup to sundown, if you're having tiny little diet meals in low calorie dieting, that's not good either. So, we don't want you to do intermittent fasting in an overly restrictive way because that really is going to be too much. Anyway, that's what I have to say about that. It was just so interesting that that's what everyone said. Then, when I explained it they're like, "Oh, well, that does make sense." [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, it's definitely the question on everybody's mind. Yes, we are on the same page and actually this is perfect timing this question because something I actually wanted to address. Actually, I know you've seen my posts about it. I released an episode with Valter Longo. What is today? This past Friday. It was all about fasting, and the fasting mimicking diet, and for listeners who are not familiar, we have had Valter Longo on this show as well. He's the author of The Longevity Diet, and he is the head of I think the Gerontology school--, or he has a position at USC, and he's a renowned fasting researcher. That episode, [giggles] it's always really interesting to see when I release an episode, what the responses and what stimulates the most discussion? That episode has stimulated so much discussion, and a lot of people freaking out a little bit, because he advocates shorter fasts. I thought it was a very nuanced discussion about it, but he's on the low protein train as well, which is just something I was thinking about in my head now, and it's something I talked about with him in the show, which was, can you get the best of both worlds if you fast longer, but you have really a moderate or high protein intake in your eating window? Does that solve all the "issues" that he thinks that you might be seeing with longer fasts, and is it also mTORism?  

I always forget, it's like protein releases or stimulates mTOR, which is a signaling pathway for growth, and people who advocate low protein diets in part often advocate it because they say it stimulates less mTOR and less IGF-1, which can also be linked to aging. This is a long meandering way of saying. Well, I wanted to respond to that first because people keep asking me, "What are my thoughts on this? Should people be fasting less?" Which goes in with Pia's question, which is why I want to talk about it. My thoughts on that is that I think all information is information. So, listen to the episode, see what you take from it. So, listen with an open mind, take from it what resonates with you, but in the conversation, I do tell him my approach which is longer fasting with a high protein intake. I really think it's fine what works for you, and people keep asking me, "Am I going to change my fasting approach based on that conversation?" My answer is, "Most definitely, no." Because what works for me, it works really, really well for me. So, for Pia's question, it's a lot of what Gin just said. I don't equate fasting with restriction. It doesn't have to equate with restriction. But if you become restricted in your eating, then that will be a stressor on top of a stressor and everything will likely become too restricted for you, especially, I think women are much more sensitive to this. So, my suggestions for you are actually really, really similar to Gin. So, I would try one of two things. If you want to try the longer windows, it's what Gin said. Make sure you're getting enough in that eating window. I really, really say focus on protein. A lot of people find that if they really focus on protein, especially, with something like this where you have a shorter eating window, there's the protein leverage hypothesis. I've interviewed Ted Naiman before. We had Ted Naiman on this show, too, right or just William Shewfelt on this show?  

Gin Stephens: We had William Shewfelt, not Ted Naiman.  

Melanie Avalon: So, in their book, The PE Diet, they really, really break this down and explain protein leverage hypothesis, which is basically that your hunger signals will continue until you satiate your protein needs and your protein requirements. 

Gin Stephens: I feel like that's true.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I 100% believe it's true.  

Gin Stephens: You know, I don't eat meat every day, but I absolutely every now and then I'm like, I can tell I need to eat more protein one day, I can just feel it, and I listen. I have a lot of meat at the conference more than I usually do. Everything was gluten free and dairy free, but they had amazing meat. It was all like grass fed, organic. So, I had just a lot of meat and veggies.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.  

Gin Stephens: But then the last night, this is a funny story. The last night of the conference, I went to a restaurant with a friend when the conference was over. We were having a pool party, there wasn't really like dinner. So, we're like, "Let's go eat." That was somebody that I met at the conference. We went and ate and she was carnivore. So, she had a giant steak. [laughs] We got a meat and cheese plate, and she ate the meat off of it, and I ate all the cheese, and all the bread, and then, I ordered also French onion soup, a caprese salad and ate the mozzarella. So, apparently, my body was like, "Eat the dairy, eat the bread," because I hadn't had any. But I just ordered what looked good off the menu, and that is what it was. Cheese plate, bread, French onion soup, and a caprese salad with the cheese.  

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny.  

Gin Stephens: I know. My body was really missing the dairy and the grain.  

Melanie Avalon: The interesting thing for me is, I always need that hunk of protein. I'm never not craving a big whack of protein.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I got protein obviously in the dairy, but that was what I wanted because everything was so heavily vegetable, vegetable, vegetable, meat, that was it. Vegetables and meat. It was delicious. But I always order what sounds good off the menu. I wasn't like, "I haven't had any cheese. Let me get some." That's just what I was drawn to. My body was like, "Oh, I want that, I want that," and then, when I looked back at what I ate, I'm like, "That's kind of comical." 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That is funny. So, yes. So, Pia, if you are-- I'm just echoing what Gin said. Make sure if you're doing longer fasts that you're getting enough in that eating window with an emphasis on protein. My second suggestion is, if you want to keep in the shorter fasts, which seem to be working well for you, but the issue seems to be that you're not losing weight on the shorter fasts, we don't know much about what you're eating. You just say that, you eat a quite healthy diet, but you could also try a shorter fast and playing with your macros, and that might stimulate weight loss. 

Gin Stephens: I also had a question about that because we don't know how much she needs to lose because I have run across people over the years, through the hundreds of thousands of people in the groups who are at a very healthy weight for their body, and yet feel like they want to lose more weight. But their body is not with that program. Because your body is not going to lose below a place that feels good to your body. So, I don't know if that might be what Pia is up against. Like her desired weight might be lower than her body's happy weight, and it is always going to be hard to fight below that. So, I just don't know.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, that's a really important thing.  

Gin Stephens: She might really just need to stay where she is. The urge to binge also might be a signal that you're trying to push your body to a lower weight than your body is comfortable maintaining. So, that's just another factor. If I had decided at some point that I needed to weigh, I don't know. I'm just going to make up a number 115 pounds. Like, let's say, I thought I needed to weigh 115 pounds, and I became fixated on that, I would never have been happy with my body, and would have struggled really hard, and probably felt terrible. If I could have gotten to 115, it wouldn't have been good for me. That's too lean for me. That would not have been a good weight for my body. But if I had really tried, I probably could have white knuckled my way there, but I would have felt bad, and I wouldn't have been able to maintain it. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, I think that's a really important thing to point out. If that's the case and you still want to lose and/or if that's not the case and you want to lose with the shorter fasts, my recommendation would be looking at the macros. So, again I don't know what a healthy diet is. That's a really broad term. A lot of people can experience weight loss if they go and I'm going to use the word 'extreme.' But if they go a little bit extreme with the macros, so that's doing a ketogenic diet that really actually is low carb. So, it's got to be low carb enough to really be ketoticand then if weight loss is the goal, and given the context of everything, low carb keto diet without all the added fats because if you have all the added fats, it's going to make it less likely that your body is going to tap into your body fat.  

The flip side of that something to try would be going actually low fat and buy low fat, not conventional low fat, which is 30%, but super low fat. So, like 10% fat, and that would include no added fats. Some people find that that really works well. Even within that low-fat sphere, some people find that the type of carbs they're having with that can matter. So, carbs from primarily fruit versus carbs from starches, some people don't lose weight well on starches, some people do. So, basically playing around with the type of foods within this "healthy paradigm" can encourage fat loss when you find what clicks with your body, but all of that said, definitely paying attention to nutrition within that focusing on the protein, focusing on the essential nutrients, focusing on food quality, you basically want to--, if fat loss is the goal, in my opinion, put your body into a state where it's getting all of the protein that it needs to sustain your muscle mass, sustain your body's protein, it's getting all the nutrients it needs to-- Nutrients, I mean, micronutrients. So, vitamins. I also mean like EPA, DHA, things like that. It's getting all of that that it needs to do all of its body's processes.  

The only thing that is missing is the extra calories/fat. So, your body is tapping into your own fat or if you're doing keto, the carbs are missing. So, it's making your body even more likely to tap into fat stores, and then you're not adding in extra fat, so it's really being forced to tap into those fat stores. I really should write this book.  

Gin Stephens: Write the book. Write the book. [laughs] It's hard to write a book.  

Melanie Avalon: It is.  

Gin Stephens: It is really hard, and then there's so much information in there. When I was going to be on Abel James, I was like, "I better just like get some little things I can say," because I could talk about fasting all day and all night with no note. But I need to have some notes about Clean(ish) because I haven't ever talked about it before. 

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Gin Stephens: So, we have time for one more question. This is from Kathy and the subject is: "Tests." She says, "Hi. I've read all your books and listened to tons of your podcasts. I'm about three months in and doing great. I'd like to get testing done to check the different levels of things that would help me better understand my body and what works best for me. What are the names of the tests, what should I ask for from my doctor, which tests should I order online, is there a simple resource for this that I'm missing? Thanks, and keep up the great work," Kathy.  

Melanie Avalon: All right, so, yeah. This is a great question from Kathy about tests. Oh, my goodness, so, the world of testing is obviously huge. Kathy is approaching us just from helping her better understand her body. I do want to answer both that as well as people who are trying to figure out health issues because I think that's two different things. If you're just trying to get a good understanding of your health and your body, so, a traditional doctor is going to do a basic metabolic panel. That's going to include things like your liver enzymes, and your blood sugar, and so, a conventional doctor is going to run something called a comprehensive metabolic panel. You're probably familiar with that, because pretty much every time we're doing a checkup, and really, even if you're going in to test something specific, often times, doctors just run this. Because it's 14 tests, it's things that-- it's like blood sugar, it's your electrolytes, it's liver enzymes, calcium, it's basically like that picture. That gives you a general idea of very basic conventional medical standards view of what is going on.  

That said, the conventional ranges are not necessarily the ideal ranges and what's actually scary is the ranges keep changing as the years go on partly because the averages are changing, because our population is getting sicker. So, the averages are like the average person is different now. So, we get tested against a standard that probably isn't as strict or as ideal as it should be. That's why Gin and I love a company called InsideTracker. They actually test you by ideal ranges, and then on top of that, they don't test just the comprehensive metabolic panel. They dive deep into the things that they think really show your true health status, your true "inner age," so, how old you are on the inside. So, that's where I would recommend Kathy start. So, with their tests in addition to what I just mentioned, they test things like HbA1c that Gin and I talk about a lot, which shows how long-- it's a better indicator of your blood sugar levels over a range of time. They do a deep dive into your iron panel. So, things like ferritin and hemoglobin. What's incredible for example is I got an iron panel done to check my iron, and this is where I'm a conventional doctor. This is so weird to me. So, in the medical codes, the normal iron panel does not include ferritin, which-- sorry, I'm just like flabbergasted by this. But ferritin is a storage form of iron. 

So, when I asked my conventional doctor for example, to run an iron panel, it did include ferritin, I got back my results. I thought my iron was great. Then I ran InsideTracker. They do include ferritin and I realized, "Oh, my ferritin is super low." So, my iron looks good on the outside, but actually maybe it's not. Then with InsideTracker, they also check another enzyme called GGT. That's a liver enzyme that is specific to the liver, because the liver enzymes tested by the conventional metabolic panel. AST and ALT can also be affected by muscle stress. So, GGT can kind of tell you if you have elevated liver enzymes, where the problem is like, is it specific to your liver or is it may be coming more from exercise or something like that. Then they test other things as well like Vitamin D. Vitamin D is a huge marker of health. They test RBC magnesium, which is super important, because that is basically a level of magnesium--, your cellular magnesium, and when we interviewed Wade Lightheart coming full circle, he talks a lot about the importance of the RBC magnesium test, and that's something that your doctors probably not going to be checking unless you ask for it. So, those are the types of tests that I would check. You could go to InsideTracker and you could get that straight up, or you could ask your conventional doctor, if hopefully, they're willing to work with you, you could ask for these individually, and/or you could order them individually through something like Let'sGetChecked. They have a lot of really great tests that you can order individually. So, we'll put links in the show notes to all of those services. We have amazing discounts for all of them.  

My second part of the answer was, if you are struggling--, so for people who feel fatigue and they feel like something is off, and they feel like something is wrong, and that's why they're looking for tests. In addition to everything that I just suggested, I already mentioned the iron, but I would definitely, definitely getting that iron panel with ferritin from whoever you have to get it from, because that can be a huge source. I would definitely do a full thyroid panel to see if your thyroid is off. A conventional thyroid doctor is probably just going to check TSH and T4. But you really want to check TSH, T4, free T3, and reverse T3, and then other things you could look for are things like-- blood mercury is something to look forward to see if you have a heavy metal issue, and then working with a holistic practitioner, who can really do a deep dive into things like gut testing. So, you can see if you have any parasites or if you have a gut microbiome that's off, you could do a hormone panel, a DUTCH test, which is a 24-hour urine collection thing where you basically see how your hormones are going all throughout the day, that can be really helpful. You can always check as well for things like celiac, you can check for-- There's just a lot you can check for. 

If you are approaching this from a place of fatigue and feeling unwell, I would not take on--. Everything I just said, I would not take that on your own. I would find a holistically minded practitioner, an MD, a nurse practitioner, somebody who is on the same page about all of this who can do super thorough testing and somebody you're comfortable with and then go with their guidance about everything. But if you're like Kathy, and you're just trying to better understand your body, see where you're at, I probably start with something like InsideTracker. Oh, and then last thing with InsideTracker is, you can also get their inner age, and that will look at the specific biomarkers are correlated to your inner age, and then they'll give you an inner age-- like your inner age, and it's really cool because you can track it over time, and it's a nice way to see if you're making progress. Oh, and then I forgot cholesterol panel, but that would be included in that as well. So, Gin. 

Gin Stephens: Well, you were very thorough as I knew you would be. [laughs] But I want to throw out there ZOE too. I love ZOE. Everybody knows if you're depending on whether what Kathy meant, the different levels of things that would help her understand her body, that's the wording that she uses. ZOE helped me understand my body better than anything I've ever done. So, you can go to ginstephens.com/zoe to read about that. And Melanie's done it, too. You don't have your results back yet, though, do you? 

Melanie Avalon: I do.  

Gin Stephens: Oh. Have we ever talked about the results?  

Melanie Avalon: I don't think we have. So, next week. 

Gin Stephens: All right. I look forward to hearing about ZOE. 

Melanie Avalon: So, we'll put a link in the show notes to all of that stuff. The InsideTracker, the ZOE, and the Let'sGetChecked.  

Gin Stephens: Fabulous.  

Melanie Avalon: So, okay. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode, which I feel like will be super helpful because oh my goodness, we talked about so many things and the show notes have a full transcript. Those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode238. Then, lastly, you can follow us on Instagram. I, @melanieavalon, and Gin is @ginstephens, and on the Instagram is @ifpodcast.  

Oh, fun fact. When I asked Whole Foods guy or told him about the shows, I asked him if he was on Instagram. He said, no, and he said he's not a big social media person. So, that's good, because I've been posting things there. [laughs] Yeah, good times. All right. Well, anything from you, Gin, before we go.  

Gin Stephens: Nope. I got nothing.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.  

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

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Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Oct 31

Episode 237: Our Taste For Sodium, Electrolytes, Low Carb Diets, Hydration & pH Balance, Fatigue & Muscle Cramps, Thermoregulation, Exercise, Sauna, Need Vs. Optimization, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 237 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get A FREE Holiday Turkey In Your First Box!

GREEN CHEF: Get easy, affordable meals made with organic ingredients for a variety of lifestyles - including Paleo, Keto, Vegan, and Vegetarian - shipped straight to your home! Go To greenchef.com/ifpodcast125 And Use Code IFPODCAST125 To Get $125 Off Including Free Shipping!

BIOPTIMIZERS: A Company Whose Mission Is To Fix Your Digestion! Get Their Full Spectrum Magnesium Supplement To Fix Your Magnesium Status, Containing All 7 Versions Of Magnesium! Go To magnesiumbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST10 To Get Your Discount And Free Gifts Today!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get A FREE Holiday Turkey In Your First Box!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Wired to Eat: Turn Off Cravings, Rewire Your Appetite for Weight Loss, and Determine the Foods That Work for You

Sacred Cow: The Case for (Better) Meat: Why Well-Raised Meat Is Good for You and Good for the Planet

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #57 - Robb Wolf

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!!

robb's Personal Story

the beginnings of LMNT

How do you know what the right combination for your body?

our taste for sodium

Hydration & pH Balance

nicotine

Where is the line between hydration and dehydration?

sodium depletion during sweating

dilution ratios for LMNT

GREEN CHEF: Go To greenchef.com/ifpodcast125 And Use Code IFPODCAST125 To Get $125 Off Including Free Shipping!

can you have too many electrolytes?

how Frequently do you have to replenish electrolytes?

exercise

oura ring

timing your electrolytes for working out

how well do we need to track electrolytes?

thermoregulation and sweating in the sexes

does salt concentration in sweat indicate anything?

how many LMNT can you drink a day?

being sensitive to the salty taste

having the flavored LMNT during a fast

longevity: are we trying too hard?

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #115 - Valter Longo, Ph.D.

does it break a fast?

Question: How long should our fasting windows be?

do you need more if You're keto?

what is the role of dietary carbohydrate?

what about the natural flavors?

BIOPTIMIZERS: Go To magnesiumbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast And Use Code IFPODCAST10 To Get Your Discount And Free Gifts Today!

labeling in supplements

should you take LMNT if you use the sauna?

need vs optimization

the therapeutic benefit to sweating in the sauna

is it good for kids?

regenerative agriculture

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 237 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny® Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get a 10- to 16-pound, humanely raised, free-range turkey for free. Yes, for free. We are so honored to be supported by a company called ButcherBox. It is so, so important to us to buy high-quality meat that you can trust. It tastes better, it's more ethical, it's more sustainable, it's truly what benefits not only ourselves, but the planet. Friends. I've been doing a lot of research on transparency in the food industry and it is shocking what goes down. What you see on the shelves at the grocery store can be very misleading with practices that are not benefiting ourselves or the planet. So, if you're tired of searching for 100% grass-fed beef, free-range organic chicken, wild-caught seafood, and more, you've got to try ButcherBox. Their entire sourcing is actually done holistically. They keep the farmer, the planet, the animal, and your family all in mind to deliver products directly to you, cutting out the middleman of a grocery store to save you money, and get you quality meat and seafood that you can trust. 

Plus, their products taste amazing. Oh, my goodness, friends, I am a steak girl. ButcherBox' filet is one of the best filets I have ever tasted in my entire life. I recently gave my family some of their grass-fed, grass-finished beef, and my mom told me it was the best ground beef she had ever tasted. My brother also adores their bacon. Yep, if you want pastured heritage-breed bacon that is sugar and nitrate free, you can get that at ButcherBox. I'm also a scallop girl, and their wild-caught scallops are delicious, and I can finally feel good about the transparency with that because friends, the seafood industry is very, very sketchy. A 2013 Oceana study found that one-third of seafood in grocery stores and restaurants was mislabeled. Farmed salmon is often labeled as wild salmon, and other fish species are just complete lies. It's honestly very shocking. 

Every month, ButcherBox members can get a curated selection of high-quality meat shipped straight to their home. Those boxes contain between 8 to 14 pounds of meat depending on your box type and what you want. They're packed fresh and shipped frozen with free shipping for the continental US. And friends, with the holidays upon us, how hard is it to find humanely raised, free-range turkeys without additives. Just go look at those turkeys at the grocery store and look at their ingredient list. It shouldn't be just turkey, it's not usually just turkey. They often plump up those turkeys at the grocery store to make them weigh more and those solutions are full of additives that you do not want in your body. But we've got you covered. You can skip the lines for your Thanksgiving turkey. This holiday ButcherBox is proud to give new members free turkey. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to sign up. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to receive a free turkey in your first box. I'll put all this information in the show notes.  

 Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disruptors, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare and makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. 

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging, and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.  

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show. 

Hi everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 237 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here today with a very, very special guest. Oh, my goodness, friends, I am so excited. So, I talk about a lot of people on this show, as you guys know, I'm always throwing you author recommendations and people to listen to. And I think I can honestly say that probably the person I have talked about the most is a Mr. Robb Wolf. And that is because when I first fell into the whole diet world, I was doing low carb and then in 2012, I read a book called The Paleo Solution and that honestly just changed my life. Since then, I became a little bit of a Robb Wolf fangirl, listening to his podcast, his books since then. So, he also wrote Wired to Eat, which I know I talked about at length on this show, that is a really cool book if you're interested in learning how we all react completely differently to carbs in particular, macronutrients and how things affect people differently. And then after that, he wrote Sacred Cow, which is all about the regenerative agriculture world, which is so, so important to me. I will put links in the show notes because we actually did an episode on that book on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, I will link to that. And then beyond that, Robb also released the Sacred Cow documentary, which I just watched, by the way, Robb, I'm embarrassed to say, I haven't watched it yet, but it was incredible. I watched on Amazon Prime. 

And then lastly, well, not lastly--, but lastly, for this intro, Robb is one of the amazing figures behind LMNT, which is an electrolyte company supplements that you guys love, love, love. We just figured it was high time to have an educational episode on electrolytes, especially because it relates so much to people doing fasting and it has really benefited so many of you guys, I hear from you all the time about it. So, I have collected a lot of listener questions about electrolytes and then maybe some other topics if we have time. But, yes, I'm just so excited. Robb Wolf, thank you so much for being here. 

Robb Wolf: If I grin anymore, my head may literally split in half and just fall off. Thank you. I am so honored by the intro. Thank you very much. 

Melanie Avalon: You've been on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast twice, and I think I told you this at the time, but I literally almost started crying the first time I interviewed you, which has never been before in an interview. So, I'm just so in awe and so grateful for everything that you're doing. 

Robb Wolf: Thank you. Thank you very much. 

Melanie Avalon: To start things off, I did a second interview with Robb on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast all about electrolytes. So, if you want to really, really deep dive into that conversation that we had, I'll put a link to that. But in today's episode, I have a lot of listener questions about electrolytes. But before we get to that, Robb, I mean, a lot of my listeners are probably very familiar, but would you like to tell them just a little bit about your personal story? I want to hear like your entire life story, but I guess what led you to developing LMNT, the topic of today's show? 

Robb Wolf: I did an undergrad in biochemistry and was looking at either medical school or more of a PhD research route in the autoimmunity cancer area. Around this time, I developed ulcerative colitis, really, really terrible case of it. I'm 5’9” about 170 pounds, it hit the low ebb of my ulcerative colitis, I was about 125-130 pounds. So, I was a mess. I knew enough about ulcerative colitis at that time, that the surgery was the main option on the table, some immunosuppressant drugs were also in the potential future. I knew enough about things at that point that that I did not want to head down that road in a complex set of circumstances put the idea that maybe my diet was the cause of my ulcerative colitis. I started doing some researching. This is about 1998, mind you, and this idea of a Paleo diet got on my radar. I did a little bit of research, there wasn't a lot of material at that time, there were only a few folks, anthropologists researching things, but what I found was really compelling. It talked a lot about Neolithic foods, grains, and stuff like that. For some people, they do wonderfully on them. And for other folks, they oftentimes have some GI and autoimmune-related problems and that really seemed to describe me, I was sick enough that I figured what have I got to lose? And so I embarked on what would now be considered a lower carb paleo-type diet. And it was nothing short of life saving for me. It was really miraculous.  

I've continued to tinker and fiddle and improve my health over the intervening 23 years, but as good as things were eating that way, particularly for like my blood sugar levels, not suffering carb crashes and not having weird GI problems and whatnot. I participate some old guy Brazilian jujitsu when I was really early in the CrossFit scene, I co-founded the first and fourth CrossFit affiliate gym. So, I've been around activities most of my life that are pretty high intensity. And if people have ever tried to do high intensity activity on a low carb diet, it's tough. The fueling just seems completely at odds and it was a lot of struggle. I spent a lot of time on the struggle bus trying to figure out, “Can I add some carbs around workouts or post workout or different things to try to fuel my training and also feel pretty good? But I eventually met two guys, Tyler Cartwright and Luis Villasenor, who are the founders of a community called Ketogains.  

They have hundreds of thousands of people in this community and they're just doing amazing body composition transformations with them. Mainly women, about 85% women between the age of like 35 and 55 thereabouts. People were getting amazing body composition changes. We weren't seeing crazy, like menstrual cycle issues or low thyroid and whatnot. I started asking these guys, I'm like, “What are you doing that's different, and then what do I need to do to be better at what I'm doing?” The long and short of it was that I and many other people when they are doing low carb or fasting, folks tend to be deficient in electrolytes in general, sodium in particular, which is a controversial topic because we're told time and again, that sodium is something that needs to be limited and we can dig into why that is here in a bit. But as most people will do when they have a world expert giving you advice, I ignored their advice at first. I said, “Oh, I salt my food. I'm totally squared away.” The thing was, is that when I finally listened to them, weighed and measured my food, really did a proper accounting of the amount of electrolytes I was consuming, they wanted me at, at least 5 grams of sodium per day and I was getting less than 2 grams of sodium per day.  

I fixed that initially by just literally drinking some pickle juice, which I like and is actually a wonderful option in this whole sodium-electrolyte story. And I felt better immediately. And then I tried some pickle juice pre and post jujitsu training, which I'm sure I had the most amazing breath ever on that particular training day. But I felt really, really good. I had this low gear that I just didn't remember having for ages. I circled back with Tyler and Luis. I'm like, “Hey, this sodium thing is really, really important.” They're like, “Yeah, we've known that for 10 years. [laughs] You're an idiot.” We put together a free downloadable guide that we call KetoAide, and it was basically take this much table salt, this much no salt, which is potassium chloride, a little bit of magnesium citrate, some lemon juice, stevia, water, shake it up, and use it. Within six months, we had like a half million downloads of this thing when we released it, and which we thought was great, it was really helping people. But then folks started asking us for a convenient option, like, they would mention that they were traveling and they're going through TSA and the TSA would look stink eye at them for having three bags of white powder in their carryon bag and stuff like that.  

Tyler and Luis were very dialed in on the need for electrolytes within the context of fasting and low-carb diets. When I became aware of that, it was world shaking. I knew that the bulk of the problems that folks in both my community and the bigger ancestral health community that so many of the problems that people were facing, were electrolyte driven. We started with this freemium option, we just wanted the information out there and we talked about things like pickle juice, and olives and salami being really nutritious sources of sodium rich foods. You don't just have to drink it, but ideally, you get it as part of your diet too. And then, it was actually the folks using that that free downloadable guide that they goosed us into starting this product, like we really didn't set out with the plan of selling people salt, but there was clearly a need there in-- knock on wood, but it looks like we really found a need and have a great solution to it. And everything is gone wonderfully. Like partners, we have with you have been able to spread this message. The really cool thing in it, it really jives with my nutritional philosophy is, if you're struggling at some point, let's figure out a game plan, let’s generate kind of a hypothesis or an idea about what's going on, and then let's test it. Let's try something and you give it a day, you give it a week, you give it a month, whatever the timeline makes sense on that, and then we can assess it. And if you're looking feeling performed better than cool, if not, then we'll iterate and keep going.  

What we've generally found with the electrolyte story is that folks just feel better immediately when they get this addressed. And it's a very enviable place to be when you have some sort of a product because it's like, I've taken vitamins and minerals and different things over the years, and I think they're helpful, but I don't know that I really notice all that much of a difference and it's like, “Oh, this protein powder is great, it was good in a shake. But I don't know if it's really like doing something for me, other than it's just food of some kind.” When you were off on electrolytes, and then you fix it, the results are so profound, and it's over the top, it's hard to ignore. And that's been a really cool position to be in because we do free giveaway stuff and whatnot. We're like, “Just try it, and then let us know how it goes.” It is led to really remarkable growth. So, there you go. 

Melanie Avalon: That is an incredible story. And that's what I was actually just thinking was-- the times when I think I definitely needed electrolytes and then had them, you feel it right away, literally feels like a light switch going on or something. I was also just thinking that it wasn't really until I had the episode with you on the other show, and we dived really deep into electrolytes. I realized because I've had this show for over 200 episodes now and people ask us questions all the time about having issues with fatigue or lethargy, or just not thriving, especially on a low-carb diet. It wasn't until you-- I really became aware of this whole electrolyte thing that I was like, “Oh, this is something I should have been recommending for a long time.” So, apologies to listeners, if I dropped the ball on that. 

Robb Wolf: Well, I only dropped the ball for 22 years. So, keep that in mind. I'm the biochemist guy and I dropped the ball for 22 years. So, no worry. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Picking the ball back up. Really random personal question. I'm curious how many colonoscopies did you have in your adventures with UC? 

Robb Wolf: Like two or three, it wasn't that many. They verified it and then just clinically the symptoms kind of loose stools and gas and just pain--, pretty remarkable pain, was a pretty good bellwether for what my current status was. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I just asked because I just had my third one, a few weeks ago, so I thought maybe you might have been up there with me with the colonoscopies. Fun times.  

Robb Wolf: Yeah, we're around that two to three level. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm actually about to get the PillCam, which I'm excited about.  

Robb Wolf: Oh, interesting. 

Melanie Avalon: Nervous about the EMFs. But whatever, we'll see, in the name of science. 

Robb Wolf: I'm definitely in a minority here. But I'm not nearly as freaked out about EMFs, as a lot of people are. And I take some heat for that. I did a piece, it was more COVID related, right at the beginning of COVID. I'm a biochemist by training, but I really like physics, and I was reasonably good at it. And I got in and looked at it the way a physicist would with the amount of energy released the type of energy and all that type of stuff. I don't know that I would want to do hot yoga, on top of like a, an electrical transformer deal, but there are these things like the inverse square law, when you get twice as far away from a source, it's four times less powerful, and all these types of things. So, I'm way, way less worried about EMFs than a lot of people are, in-- particularly in a situation like this, where it's a transient process. That seems like a completely trivial risk profile in my mind. 

Melanie Avalon: No, thank you, that makes me feel better. I actually did an interview this week on it, and he was talking about that about how quickly it does dissipate when you're farther away and then also the cost benefit of what is this bringing you. I think the cost benefit, even though it's going to be super close up to my intestinal cells, so but short time and good information should come from it. So, very measured approach, but back to electrolytes. I'm stopping myself from just asking all my own personal questions, because I know, people have a lot of questions. So, this is something that you just touched on in your intro, and it was knowing-- well, maybe I don't know if you actually said it, or I just thought about it when you said it, but actually knowing what you need when it comes to electrolytes. For example, we have a question from Nikki and she said, “I had heard when it comes to electrolytes, everybody needs a different combination in order to be really effective. How do you know what the right combination is for your body? Does it depend on your gut microbiome?” And then just looping in with that one. Josie says, “How would you even know if electrolytes are out of balance?” So, is it individual to the person? 

Robb Wolf: It is, but our physiology is pretty good at sorting that out if we give it the right stuff. Person A versus Person B versus Person C, they may have some individual needs there. But let's just put on like our evolutionary biology hat for a second. If we're living as a hunter gatherer tribe, or even late 18th century farming community, how do you customize every single situation for a given person? That gets a little bit crazy, but this is where our sense of taste, our appetite for things like sodium, out of all the molecules that are involved in health, like vitamin D, and vitamin A, and B vitamins. All these things have a flavor they will taste like something. But literally a huge chunk of our sense of taste, sweet, salty, sour, umami, is allocated to sodium. Sodium, when it's found in fairly high concentrations and foods, usually, denote some high nutrient density and stuff like that. Our most organisms really have a draw towards sodium.  

The symptoms of low electrolytes or maybe one of the best places to start there, because I think it starts giving folks an operational framework for figuring out what's going on. In early signs of low electrolyte status, and when I say that, I'm really mainly focusing on sodium. And maybe we could get a little nuance to that in a minute. But lethargy, fatigue, brain fog, those are kind of the early signs and symptoms. As it gets later, we might see an elevated heart rate because we have both low sodium and low total body water, which would be dehydration, and we want the right amount of water going through our circulatory system, when the heart loads to get ready to pump, it's almost like bouncing on a trampoline. If we're bouncing on a floor, not much rebound, and if we bounce on like a gymnastics mat, there's maybe a little bit of rebound. But it's actually kind of soaking up the energy. But when we bounce on a trampoline, when you get that thing going properly, you're actually benefiting from some of the energy of loading the trampoline to launch you back into the air.  

When our heart is properly loaded with the blood volume, it's very efficient. When we lose fluid volume, when we become dehydrated, the blood volume can become low enough that the heart doesn't really load in the proper fashion. And then it needs to be faster to get the same rate of circulation going through our body, and so it's a stress on the heart. So, elevated heart rate is one of these later stage signs and symptoms of inadequate electrolytes and also hydration. And then further down the road is things like cramping, getting toe cramps and calf cramps and stuff like that. Once we get to that point of cramping, then we are really, really quite far down the low sodium, inadequate sodium, improper electrolyte status.  

In some people when they're in that phase, particularly if they're fasting or low carb, if they go from like seated to standing, then they get very lightheaded, normally like pass out and whatnot. And so that's a spectrum of the symptoms that one might experience when they are low in electrolytes. Oftentimes that like midafternoon energy slump, it's a variety of things that could go into it. But oftentimes it's low electrolytes, folks will notice that if they drink some electrolytes in lieu of a cup of coffee or a cup of tea, getting some more caffeine in their system, what they find is they just needed some more electrolytes, and then they feel really good. When you consider the fact that our sodium, potassium pumps are the main energy production centers in our body, this is the way we make ATP, this is the way we make energy for every single thing that we do. It makes sense that if our electrolytes are a little bit off than our energy, and the way that we feel will be a little bit off.  

I know one of the folks had a question around, does gut microbiota influences? It does, if somebody has, say, like SIBO and very rapid gut transit, it's very easy for these folks to become electrolyte deficient, because they tend to have loose watery stools. The gut contents are going through so fast that the large intestine and colon aren't able to do their job of reabsorbing water and electrolytes, and keeping that balance. Folks with different types of SIBO or other kind of permeable gut situations, they can find themselves in an electrolyte deficient state pretty easily. And this may be some of the chronic fatigue and lethargy that these folks experience because they're constantly dumping that-- that water in sodium, and so feeling kind of rough as a consequence. 

Melanie Avalon: Gotcha. Actually, that just made me think of a question about the actual hydration process as it relates to, the water-- the water we take in, the water in our intestines compared to the actual hydration status of our cells. For example, we got a question from, her name is Met, I think, but she says she's pregnant, and she sometimes throws up because of it. She wants to know does throwing up mess with your electrolytes, how much does it actually affect our electrolytes? And how bad does it have to be to cause harm? And if it does cause harm, can it be canceled out in some way by taking supplements? So that question and then I was just thinking, like losing, water throwing up or taking a lot of water through drinking or through food? How does that actually compare to the hydration status of your body? Because they often say that your intestines--, stuff in your intestines is actually outside your body in a way? 

Robb Wolf: Yeah, it's a tube. It's effectively a tube from mouth to hoo-ha, and technically that stuff is all outside of one's body. That story of say, like vomiting and the potential health effects, it can affect electrolytes, but the thing that it affects sooner than that is pH, because our stomach contents contain a lot of acid-- hydrochloric acid. If we lose a lot of stomach contents from vomiting, people will can end up in a very dangerous situation of being hyperalkalinized. This is actually a really cool and well-timed question and ability to comment on this stuff. If we think about the most tightly regulated processes in our body, arguably pH and electrolytes are it. If you or I show up unconscious to an emergency room, the very first thing that the doctor is going to do is check our electrolytes and our pH, heart rate and stuff like that. Is he or she still breathing? We're going to tick that box, but when they start doing some lab work, electrolytes and pH, pH goes a little high or a little low and we get sick or we can die. Electrolytes go a little off and we can get sick and we can die. There's really a pretty narrow window there.  

Now, if you throw up once or twice, yes, you're offloading some acid and transiently your body is going to be in a bit more of an alkaline state, but then your body will just not dump as much carbon dioxide out breathing, your kidneys will not excrete as much or-- will excrete more bicarbonate. And so, there's ways that the body will adjust to that pretty quickly what becomes problematic is, if this is really explosive for lack of the better term. Oral rehydration therapy was developed for people with cholera, which is a gut microbe which causes really, really severe water loss via diarrhea and that can create an electrolyte imbalance that can kill you. And so oral rehydration therapy is very sodium forward, it has potassium, magnesium also, but it also has a little bit of glucose to really accentuate the uptake of the electrolytes. This has been turned into this idea that you can only absorb electrolytes in the presence of glucose, which is not true, but it can enhance it, but that's another example of an acute situation in which we're dumping either acid in the case of vomiting or electrolytes in the case of very severe diarrhea that could get ahead of our body's ability to deal with that and it can get ahead of anything we can do orally to fix it. It can even get out ahead of IV therapy to be able to stay ahead of that stuff and that's why these things can become life threatening emergency situations.  

Now all that stuff said, generally in the case of morning sickness, this is not what folks are facing, unless it's really severe and really prolonged, I just don't see that being a super significant problem. Some folks do report that consuming saltier beverages, like chicken broth or pickle juice or maybe something like LMNT helps with the morning sickness symptoms, but there's a lot of different things out there that range in the quality of the research that supports it. But there is some that suggested sodium rich beverages can help, bubbly beverages can help, but it's not something I would be super worried about. It's just something that you would take care of with your general nutrition and hydration and whatnot, we’ll sort it out pretty thoroughly. 

Melanie Avalon: My little quick throw up story and I'm just telling you this because I know you might relate to the reason that this happened. I haven't thrown up in like forever, but I was playing around with nicotine patches, and I guess I was not ready for that nicotine patch. And I was, “Oh, this is like college.” [laughs] So note to self, do not put on too much of a nicotine patch. 

Robb Wolf: Nicotine is a really cool molecule for cognitive enhancement, neuro protection, but man, you got to really wade into the water carefully. 

Melanie Avalon: That was my problem, because I had been doing them for a while daily, and I stopped until then I just jumped back in. And then it was not a good idea. So, going back to the hydration aspect, I had this question and so did Katie, when does or where does the difference between hydrating and dehydrating happen? She says salt is used as an electrolyte, but too much is a desiccant. 

Robb Wolf: Absolutely, yeah. It's a really good point. This is like chapters of physiology textbook, and I'm trying to think of a-- it's a really, really good question, and it shows actually a deep understanding even asking the question, but in any given situation, our hydration status, this is worth mentioning, in general parlance, like if we look at a checkout counter magazine, typically they'll talk about hydration, and only what they're talking about is water. But if we look in a textbook of medical physiology, hydration means the water and the electrolytes that go along with it. And that's one thing that we missed in this whole story that we really should be thinking about the electrolytes that are supposed to accompany the water to reach a balanced position there.  

We tend to have more sodium outside of cells and more potassium inside of cells. Our body spends a lot of energy to create that gradient, because then when the process of sodium going towards potassium and potassium going towards sodium, is involved in things like the action potentials of muscles, the way our muscles contract, the way we breathe and the nerve impulses in our brain, like it really kind of underlies everything that we do is, is the gradient of the sodium potassium pumps. And this thing is dynamic. It's everchanging. There's bracketed ranges that they ideally exist within and it's worth mentioning that if we are too low in sodium, it becomes challenging for the body to stay on top of that. And this is a situation where, unfortunately, every marathon, every triathlon, there are folks that get hospitalized. And occasionally they die because they are working at a really high output, it might be hot, it might be humid, the individual is sweating. When we sweat, we lose about 100 to 1 sodium to potassium. The main thing that comes out with our sweat is water and sodium. So that sodium becomes depleted at a very rapid clip. And if we just add water on top of that, internally in our body, what we're doing is further diluting the amount of sodium that's still available. 

There was some old folk wisdom 1940s, 1950s, that folks would say, “You shouldn't drink water, unless you can have some salt tablets with it, because it'll worsen cramping.” And now people look at that, and like, “Oh, that's crazy.” But it was actually some really good advice. And clearly, this runs into a problem at some point, you're going to die of dehydration or there's going to be problems. But there's danger associated with drinking water, absent adequate electrolytes. The thing about all this stuff is that so long as we provide adequate sodium to the body, the kidneys do a really good job of sorting out whether we have too much or too little. If we have inadequate sodium, however, it's difficult for the body to get ahead of that. It can become a downward spiral. And I do like the point that that was made in the question. At some point, sodium can become a desiccant. I mean, this is how we make jerky and part of how we can foods and whatnot. So, there is a dose limitation on that, clearly, when we make the recommendations with LMNT around how much water to dilute the element in when you are at 32 ounces per stick back, then you're in what's called a slightly hypo, it's slightly more dilute than what we would have in our bodies' fluids. It's a little bit more water relative to the electrolytes. If you're at about 24-25 ounces, then you're what's called isotonic, it's about the same ratio of water to electrolytes as what you would find in the body.  

And then in the case of about 16 ounces, it's called hypertonic. It's more concentrated in electrolytes, relative to what our body is. Generally, we want to consume things that are either isotonic, or slightly hypotonic. If you're having a good margarita base, I think making it hypertonic is fantastic because it tastes amazing. But again, our physiology is pretty crafty at sorting that out. So long as we kind of prioritize the right things. And I don't know if that was a good answer to that very good question, but that was my best stab at it for sure. 

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Melanie Avalon: We have another question because I was just thinking about the nuance that you were talking about with how if we're depleted in sodium, adding too much water, might actually make things worse by further diluting everything. This is the flip side of that. Nicole said, “I've heard that taking too many electrolytes when you don't need them causes the body to flush them out to keep the body balanced and usually results in a deficit when you need them soon after. Example, pre-gaming with electrolytes and then working out could create this deficit, then they aren't there when you need them during the actual workout. How does one know if you could benefit from them during a fast excluding the typical symptoms without your body trying to flush the excess and creating a deficit, which might affect you later during the fast.” So, does that happen? Can that flipside thing happen where if you add too many electrolytes, gets rid of them? 

Robb Wolf: Not really-- I guess if you did like really-- not really accurate. If you had a really hypertonic solution, like very, very concentrated, one thing that could happen is folks can get disaster pants because it actually pulls fluid into the intestinal contents, trying to dilute it effectively and it will and it's just really physics doing this. It pulls water into the gut. So, if something is really hypertonic you could end up with GI upset and diarrhea. The other side of this is that our body is changing, we talk about homeostasis, but this is a moving scale and again it exists within brackets, like sodium levels may go up, they may go down but it's going to be a cyclic process there.  

We've been able to do some really cool work with some NHL teams, the big hockey player guys. These are some pretty big dudes, pretty athletic, 200-220 pounds. These guys because of the gear they're wearing and the amount of activity they're doing, they will lose 10 pounds of water in a game. And that 10 pounds of water may remove as much as 10 gram of sodium in the course of the game. Now these guys need to prehydrate pretty aggressively and they need to be topping that off as much as they can during the game. And then after the game, they're still going to need to continue topping that back off or they're going to be really depleted, the next day. And this is where they go to bed and they have the elevated heart rate and whatnot because their electrolyte status is really depleted. So through the course of the game even if the person preloads the electrolytes and then they begin sweating and they're still trying to drink someone top it off. I mean, if we're only consuming 32 ounces of water on some cadence and it's only got a gram of sodium, but at the end of two hours, we've lost 10 grams of sodium. We may still be significantly sodium depleted relative to where we start. We're going to need to take additional steps to address that. In a physical activity standpoint, I'm much more concerned about ending up depleted than I am overcharging, maybe a little bit on the front end and then certainly paying attention while we're doing the event. 

Melanie Avalon: That was the example of athletes, but in general, let's say that you take in a certain amount of electrolytes sodium in particular, and then you go super high on sodium, as an individual how long it would take to go back to what you were before? I've noticed with me if I'm just following my normal diet and then I have a super salty day, it's almost I feel my body losing the salt over two or three days. I don't know, is it individual? How long that process last? 

Robb Wolf: Yeah, but that sounds about right. You might even experience that on a per meal basis, our lunches--. My daughters are seven and nine, and we homeschool and the whole family does jujitsu and we have a really cool life, but it's very, very busy. I can pull off cooking breakfast and I can pull off cooking dinner. I can't pull off a hot lunch. It just doesn't happen. It's where the wheels fall off the wagon. Lunch is frequently like a charcuterie board. It's salami and cheese and olives and pickles and all that stuff. And that's mainly what we do for lunch, like probably five days out of seven or we have some leftovers from something else. What I notice is that if I don't do that charcuterie board-type thing, which is very sodium rich, then I'll usually want some LMNT somewhere later in the day, but if I do something like the charcuterie board, then I'm just doing like water or tea because I got the sodium from that meal. And I just-- even if I taste LMNT, then even if it's properly diluted, it tastes really salty because I already consumed more than enough sodium for that--, that window of time. 

Melanie Avalon: The days that I have those salty days, it's usually, whatever reason I'm craving the deli meat, organic turkey and the sodium just shoots up through the roof, especially because I eat so much protein and meat that if I go overboard on that [laughs] it really lasts. Another question about the timing. Dorothy says-- and we danced around this or addressed it, but just to clarify, she says, “How long does an electrolyte stay in your body before needing replenishment? I'm an avid walker/hiker and gardener.” And then similarly, Holly says, she has some kind words. She says, “I'm so glad you're having Robb Wolf on again, he is a great source of information. And I am only recently learning how electrolytes play such a profound role in our physiology. My question is, are we better off taking electrolytes in a consistent lower concentration throughout the day? Or will your body store higher doses to some degree for use later when needed?” For example, I think I heard somewhere that taking them as a shot is a thing. So, I assume that way they're quite concentrated. 

Robb Wolf: It's tough to say on this. The main thing that I recommend is, folks, it slays me because I'm a biochemist by training, I love really solid empirical benchmarks. The dosing thing is one of the most challenging features of this because it really does depend. We spent two years living in Texas and even on Christmas day, it was 85 degrees and 90% humidity. I used a remarkable amount of electrolytes, even just like living. Not a jujitsu day, not a workout day just motoring long. We live in Montana now and it's much cooler, and although it's dry, it's not bone dry here, like what it was when we lived in Reno, Nevada and so finally electrolyte needs are just generally less.  

Now if I do a class of Brazilian jujitsu, if I do a pretty long workout or something, then my electrolyte needs go up. I've just gotten to a point where I just pay attention to how I'm feeling, am I feeling a little lethargic? Am I a little bit off? And I just also kind of noticed that I know the things that, okay, jujitsu, I really don't want to go to a class without some electrolytes. If we're going to do just a walk around the neighborhood, no big deal. If we're going to go two-hour hike, and I might end up carrying the kids on part of this hike, then I'm definitely going to want some electrolytes. I think you just have to play with it a little bit. I guess it's a little bit similar to just fueling in general, do you need to eat before a workout? Well, it depends on you. I really like to have a little bit of food in my system. Fasted workouts don't work well for me. I'm type A, wound-type person and the stress that comes about from some time restricted eating is more than enough for me as a baseline. I don't need to compound that with stress of fasting and exercise. It just doesn't work out for me. Some people do great with it.  

So, I think that this is just an area that you really need to tinker and experiment. And then on that, like, should you do a bolus versus a low titration? It's going to really depend. Again, maybe using my lunch example of some lunch meat, I usually end up being able to work out if I'm hitting more of a gym session, say around like 4 O'clock. I will do my lunch around noon to 12:30, because it's more like salami and cheese and all that type of stuff. I just sip on water after that, but that's my big sodium bolus early, and then I sip on water to kind of bring things back to equilibrium. And then I'm pretty good to go by the time I get ready to workout. I usually do bring another LMNT with me and if I feel I'm running out of gas and need a little bit of a boost, and I'll sip on it. Or, oftentimes, I feel I'm pretty good because I did have that pretty significant bolus earlier in the day. All that stuff said, if we consume more sodium than what we need, the kidneys are pretty good at sorting that out, and it's about 25-30 minutes before you get back to kind of a normal baseline with that.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm so glad you went that direction with the working out because we got quite a few questions about that. Shantelle wanted to know, “If you work out daily, but you don't sweat very much should I still take them?” Candace says, she works out in the mornings, mainly weights and drinks about 96 ounces of water a day. How do you know if you need to drink electrolytes? Is it mainly for people who sweat a lot and are outside? What are the benefits for the average person? Then Ashley wants to know as well. “Do most casual gym goers actually need to drink an electrolyte drink after a workout? Or is water sufficient?” So, it sounds like people are very curious if they're working out, is their level of sweat, a gauge for if they need more electrolytes, how would they know? 

Robb Wolf: It's a piece of this and maybe a way to think about it, is like a bathtub that's getting filled. If we turned water into a bathtub, the bathtub is going to fill up. Unless, the drain is open and then we're losing some amount of water. If the inflow is greater than the outflow, then we're okay or maybe it's at a stable state, where the same amount going in is coming out. So, this whole picture is going to be really dependent on how much sodium are these folks consuming as part of their just diet, their background, food intake, and whatever other supplements and whatnot, they're taking in. Generally, when folks are eating anything approximating, a minimally processed whole food-type diet, and this could be paleo, this could be vegan, it could be Mediterranean, but the bulk of the sodium that people consume in the modern world is associated with highly processed foods.  

When people move away from highly processed foods, they tend to consume markedly less sodium. It's going to depend on whether or not-- again, somebody, we threw out LMNT as a stop gap-- here's maybe something that will help. The way that we formulated LMNT, the way that we arrived at the amounts and ratios, we looked at about 300 diet records that folks were doing on chronometer, and they were very detailed. The protein, carbs, fat, but also the amount of sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium. What we found was that people eating a minimally processed, lower carb, whole food-based diet, they were fine on calcium, they were a little bit deficient in magnesium, more deficient in potassium, and they were really, really, really deficient in sodium. That's reflected in the ratios that we have. So, if folks are eating, let's say their family is more Japanese or Asian in derivation. And they do a lot of soy sauce and kimchis and stuff like that. As a background, they are consuming a lot of sodium. They might not need to supplement with something like LMNT or a different electrolyte. But, if somebody is doing a more traditional Mediterranean diet with lentils and beans and some fruits and veggies, usually the sodium there is very much a garnish. There's not much present and that individual may end up benefiting tremendously from additional sodium intake.  

The main feedback that I have for folks on this, is try supplementing around workouts or around walking or if you have a low energy portion of your day, usually like that 2:00 to 4:00 PM, something like that, try supplementing with some electrolytes at that time. Again, it could be like 10 olives, it could be a swig of pickle juice, it could be LMNT, there's a lot of different options on there. But I would look at those spots and just see like, do you notice a difference in your recovery, in your energy level? Do you see an improvement in your sleep quality? If people are tracking heart rate variability, one of the biggest things that we see is a dramatic increase in HRV score, which shows that the individual is recovering better and sleeping better when they get their sodium properly addressed. And that might actually be one of the better objective measures of whether or not that electrolyte is really benefiting. Feeling better is I think a pretty profound tool in that whole thing. But when your HRV score consistently improves, then that's a pretty good indicator that things are on point.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. We were talking earlier about how it's hard to gauge sometimes what things are actually doing, like vitamins and things like that. Do you wear an Oura ring or how do you measure your heart rate variability? 

Robb Wolf: I did for a long time, but I got frustrated with it, because I would lay down and start reading to go to bed, and then it would ding me because it thought that I had sleep latency. 

Melanie Avalon: You're going to bed? 

Robb Wolf: Yeah. Then I would get a lesser score. So, then I started taking the ring off while I read and then put it back on. And really, I had reached this point where I think that platforms like that are really, really valuable to provide some guidance, but I find that for a lot of people it's good. It became frustrating to me because I started doing goofy things to try to just improve a somewhat arbitrary score. I think heart rate variability is very, very important. It's a very valuable tool. But this is some of where the biohacking stuff raises my hackles a little bit where people lose touch with just what their body is telling them. It's like do you get sleep better, did you wake up more refreshed, and doesn't really matter. When you've got that across like 15 days, 20 days, 100 days, but I'm still getting ding because these platforms are still far from perfect, they get better all the time. So, I ended up abandoning my Oura ring. I use the Morpheus platform occasionally around my jujitsu training. In particular, when I do any type of zone two cardio because it's remarkable how little effort you need to put into getting into zone two for that really restorative cardiovascular training. So, I will use it for that more gauging my heart rate at that time, so that I don't overdo it and start turning it into a stressful session instead of a restorative session. 

Melanie Avalon: If I ever really did get into the working out stuff, I would probably want to do that whole-- the zone, figure out what zone I'm in. I haven't done that at all. It took me forever to get an Oura ring because I thought it was going to make me super neurotic. But I actually have I think a very healthy relationship with my Oura ring. When I first got it, and I realized it was recommending that I go to bed at 1:30 AM I was like, “Okay, we're fine. Like it knows me. [laughs] It knows I'm not going to go to bed earlier.” Question about the workouts though. When they are taking supplements, what would be the timing of it? Dori wants to know, “Before, during or after workout?” Lydia wants to know, "Before or after a run." And Abby wants to know, “Timing with a workout, does it coincide at all with your workout?”  

Robb Wolf: Yeah, it certainly can. There's a couple of different ways that one could tackle this in for-- let's see the little bit more sophisticated in performance-oriented people. There's a little bit of a hack that you can do, you have to get the timing right. But let's say you do your stick pack in 32 ounces and then let's say you down about half of that pretty quick, like you chug it. Again, this will vary from person to person, like a 5’2” female, that amount may need to be less, because she's just going to be like, sloshing around with a belly full of electrolyte mix, so it's going to vary a little bit there. But there's an interesting phenomenon that occurs when we begin exercising, our urine output drops dramatically. And this makes sense because the body is like, oh, we're beginning to heat up. We're going to start sweating, we need temperature regulation, we don't need to get fluids out of the body, we don't need to get sodium out of the body via the urine, we're going to handle that via the sweat and we want to allocate it to the sweat. So, you can stack the deck a little bit if you know the timing of what's going on, because then you enter into that that situation with a little bit more fluid volume than what you would normally have. It's almost like you threw it down the hatch and we're normally, if you drink a lot of fluids 20 minutes later, you would need to pee. You throw it down the hatch, maybe 10 minutes later you start exercising and you do your warm up, you don't just launch into like a full fledge crazy CrossFit workout, you need a little bit of ramp up. But what you end up doing in that situation is trapping some of that water between your mouth and your kidneys basically, and it's going to be allocated into allowing you to sweat more and maintain that fluid volume for proper cardiac output and whatnot. But you need to tinker with that, you have to figure out the timing. Otherwise, you could shoot this stuff down and maybe have a bellyache, you could shoot this stuff down, and then it takes a little longer to get the workout going than what you thought and then you need to pee every five minutes to deal with that. So, but that's a higher level, trick that folks could do to maybe get a little bit of performance bump. I do very much that at jujitsu.  

I sip on an electrolyte usually when we're driving to the gym, I sip maybe about a third of a 32-ounce container on a 20-minute drive to the gym. And then the one hour of technique stuff, it's active, but it's not super active and maybe every 5, 10 minutes, we have a little bit of a water break and sip on some water. Right before I begin rolling, I will drink probably about 15 to 20 ounces of electrolyte and then I immediately turn around and start getting after the hard rolling then, and so I end up doing both. I'm titrating a little bit of electrolytes early in and then I end up hyper loading right before the harder training session. And then at the end of that, if I have a really hard training day, I will notice that I may do two, three, four more LMNTs in that day, or just sodium equivalent. And I gauge my relative fatigue as to whether or not I need more. If I still feel knackered and cognitively out of it, then I'll keep on sipping on some more. So, that's a maybe an example that encompasses all of these questions where I use a little bit pre, I use a little bit during, and then as the intensity changes, I actually preload a little bit, so that it's going to carry me through the remainder of that hour of hard training. 

Melanie Avalon: Within the LMNT community, within the Ketogains community, with all people experimenting with taking these electrolytes to boost their performance, do some people just go completely intuitive? Do some people really plan it out? What do most people do? How intense do people need to be with tracking this compared to just being intuitive? 

Robb Wolf: I really do think that most folks, they need a game plan. But then at the end of the day, it does fall down to a bit of an intuitive level. A habituated schedule lends itself to figuring this out much better than a super randomized schedule. If you don't know when you're going to be able to exercise, then you don't really have an opportunity to preload and tinker with those LMNTs. It really is paying attention to how you're feeling and that brain fog and fatigue, it's something that historically I've attributed to blood sugar imbalance. I thought that that these energy slumps were low blood sugar, what have you, and when I did some work with a CGM, that really wasn't the case.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. CGM is so eye opening. It's like, “Oh, okay, that's not what I thought that was.” 

Robb Wolf: Yeah, because it'd be great if every problem was blood sugar related, and certainly there's a lot of them that are, but that wasn't it. I felt okay, and then I didn't feel okay, and the blood sugar was effectively the same, both of those points, but then I started layering in some electrolytes with it. It's like, “Oh, this is what I needed.” Again, it pains me because being able to provide a really prescriptive dosing regimen would be wonderful. We've talked about some kind of AI driven LMNTs with that. 

Melanie Avalon: I was going to say, make an app or something.  

Robb Wolf: Yeah. But how-- are you male or female. Like females sweat in a bit of a different way than males do. Females sweat tends to be much smaller in the droplet size and it's much more efficient, like women are much more efficient at thermal regulating than men are. Men tend to be more in what we call the super sweater category, where it's just beads of sweat that pour off of guys. Men tend to lose more sweat, more sodium relative to, if we had a male and a female 155 pounds each, all other things being equal, there's a pretty good chance that the genetic male is going to lose more water and more sodium at any given workout put in heat and humidity and all that type of stuff. There's genetic pieces, there are environmental pieces, altitude plays into this. People at high altitude tend to lose more water and require more electrolytes. But then you've got the flip side of that, usually when one is at altitude, it's also colder. When we're colder, we tend to have a suppressed thirst mechanism. It's one of these things where we are going to put some thought and some skull sweat into creating an algorithmic dosing regimen, but I'm not optimistic. There's a lot of moving parts on there.  

I don't know if it's going to be anything closer than like, we’ll just get in and tinker with it. I mean, if we have a 50% error rate in our recommendation, I don't know if it's really helping people all that much. And there's so many different spots there that I could see error introduced into this. 

Melanie Avalon: If you had unlimited time and resources and really could dive deep into it, does the salt concentration of a person's sweat indicate things? If you could test all the things to see what your perfect number is or perfect amount? Because sweat can be like more salty or less salty? 

Robb Wolf: Yeah, absolutely. There are genetic factors there. There's environmental factors. Some of the genetic factors are these folks that are super sweaters tend to produce more sweat, and it tends to be saltier sweat. So I'm not sure-- I see it a little bit more like an accounting ledger, where you've got maybe the beginning of the day and the end of the day. And we need to make sure that books balance by the end of the day, or they maybe don't balance for two days, but we need to make sure that they balance on days, three, four, and five, or something like that. This is where it's such a dynamic open system, that it's funny, being a biochemist, I'm actually one of the more cynical critical people of this quantified self-movement, because we can be buried in information and it's like, “Okay, how is it going to inform it doing anything differently?” Is it going to qualitatively cause you to do anything differently? And if it does, how are you going to gauge that as a beneficial or negative metric? Relative to I'd love things like performance output, like, if you lift weights, or you run or what have you, a little bit of heart rate. 

Let's say the individual is a runner, and they know that they can run a certain course at a certain pace and they have an average-- a given average heart rate. Now, if we do some breath work and we do some like diaphragm development, and we get our electrolytes on point, a goal could be to run, let's say, a mile or two miles, and you do it as fast as what you've done in the past. But you do it at a heart rate that is five to eight beats per minute less. And then you could get in and say, “Okay, now I'm going to run it faster. But I'm only going to keep my heart rate at the rate that it was previously.” So now, you're running the same distance, maybe a couple of minutes faster, but it's still at your old max heart rate. So, things like that, I really enjoy because it's a really hard endpoint. If one lifts weights or they do calisthenics, if you go in and you can bust out 10 really nice pull ups, and then you do some neurosynaptic facilitation, some Russian strength magic or whatever, and you go back out there and you have 15 pull ups in a couple of months, that's a really solid endpoint. Whereas so much of this other stuff, I am just left wondering, what is this really telling us? What's it really doing for us? I really do performance metrics, and this could be like, is it facilitating you learning a language and you're using Duolingo and you're rocking all the quizzes, or like, you're using Yousician, or something like that, which helps people to learn musical instruments.  

There are some really quantifiable end points there that I think are valuable, but a lot of this stuff of taking a snapshot of what my sweat status is mid workout, it's possibly interesting data. But I'm not entirely sure what I would do with that. Maybe over the course of time that might help to inform what my hydration strategy is, and maybe even some of my fueling strategy. But I think that there are less invasive ways of getting there. Again, I'm Luddite with that, like, I'm literally a caveman with this stuff. I've just seen so many screening the gut microbiome, there was all this promise around that. And we know the gut microbiome is important. We know gut health is important. And in my opinion, that's literally all that we know. When we really critically assess, well, is Akkermansia really good for you? Well, some people, it seems to be great, and other people that are super healthy, have none. Some people have this really profound profile of a Bifidobacterium bacteria, and they seem to do a lot of fermented foods, but then you have cultures that don't really do that many fermented foods, and they have wonderful gut health, and they don't have any of these Bifidobacterium bacteria. A lot of this deep information driven diving, I am still waiting for a better outcome that it's going to provide us versus like picking a performance-oriented benchmark, and then structuring our life around improving that. 

Melanie Avalon: I cannot agree more. I think one of the most dangerous things I see is just people drawing these black and white conclusions about so many things, health and fitness from all of this information that we have, but I'm like, “Do you really know that? I'm not sure.” And people will ask questions in my Facebook group and talk amongst themselves all the time about they took this supplement and then it caused this and I'm just like, “I don't know how we know that.” So, I think it can be a little bit dangerous.  

Here's two really good questions speaking about the intuition when it comes to drinking LMNT. This is basically the same question, but we have two listeners that are a little bit obsessed with LMNT and they want to know if they can overdo it. Angelo says, first she says, “What's in it that gives me so much energy?” So maybe we can circle back to that. But he says, “I need to be well hydrated in order to play tennis. So, is it safe to drink more than one package per day? I have a feeling I'm overdoing it, all I want is to drink this magical concoction.” And then Robin says, “Love the podcast. I found out about LMNT through this podcast and ordered my free package. I love the taste and the different flavors so much that I ordered more. It's the only electrolytes I can drink. Any others are too sweet, too yucky, and just horrible that I gag. My question is can I safely drink LMNT other times when I'm not sweating, or exercising and not needing to replace my electrolytes? I like to drink at least one envelope per day on the days I'm not working out, as I enjoy the taste so much, my family members are worried I am taking in too much salt. I do have AFib and this causes them to worry about my health. Thank you so much for such good information you give the audience.” People will really, really like drinking LMNT, can they drink too much of it? 

Robb Wolf: Generally consuming too much means that we're going to get loose stools, like the disaster pants scenario. That really is the first spot that I noticed people experiencing some problems. The other spot, there's a little bit of science on this, but this is way more speculative, and I want to be totally transparent about that, there are not randomized control trials. There's a little bit of neuro regulation of appetite research and some things that support this. But if the sodium is in an isotonic to hypotonic solution, it's not super concentrated. If people need more, particularly with LMNT scenario where there's an overlying sweet flavor, they will taste sweet. And then if they hit a point where they don't really need more sodium, they're topped off, all of a sudden they'll notice that it starts tasting saltier, and really less appealing. I think that that's a pretty good benchmark to use in this case.  

There are some things like the Zinc Tally Test and whatnot where they will use a aqueous solution of zinc and people who are deficient in zinc, they'll put the Zinc Tally solution under their tongue and it doesn't taste like anything, they'll do it again. They maybe do it three or four times, and then the fifth time, they do the Zinc Tally, and it tastes like they're sucking on a chrome bumper. And then ostensibly like their body is saturated with zinc. Again, there's no studies on this stuff. Nobody's done a randomized control trial. So, it's a little bit out into the woo-woo realm, but it makes sense in, I've just had this report from firefighters, hockey players, so many people where they're, like, “Yeah, when I'm really working hard, I never am able to reach a point where it starts to taste salty, like it always tastes sweet.” But then if they're in a situation, say like, they're driving cross country and they're just sedentary and they're not doing a whole lot, they'll be sipping on it, and then they just reach a point where they're like, “Eh, that doesn't taste so great anymore.” And then they just don't drink any for several hours.  

I think maybe that addresses some of that, that dosing and relative perception thing. Angelo's question on the energy, I really think that this goes back to the sodium potassium pump story. Something I need to do, is pull up there are great like Khan Academy and whatnot, but a 32nd video that describes the way the energy is produced via the ATP production sodium potassium pumps would really help people understand this. If you're deficient in sodium in particular, and then you fix that, then you are going to feel better. It's kind of funny, I don't know if we are going to run with this angle, but we are internally saying that currently we are the only real energy drink out there because sodium potassium is the currency of energy. Caffeine is great, caffeine is a great tool, but interestingly, part of what it's doing is goosing the adrenals and the release of adrenal hormones.  

One of the first things that they do is cause a retention of sodium. Some of the benefit that we get from it and they are diuretic also, so there's push-pull on that, but one of the interesting features is that we get an enhanced sodium retention with caffeine exposure. Some of the bump that I think that we get from caffeine in addition to being legitimately a stimulant is that we're getting some sodium retention out of that, but I think that is probably what Angelo's experiencing. You end up in this low sodium ebb and you're feeling kind of tired and lethargic, and then you address that, and you feel much, much better. 

Melanie Avalon: So, does something like Gatorade, does it have potassium in it? 

Robb Wolf: It has a little bit of potassium. Yeah, Sodium and a little bit of potassium. And it's maybe worth mentioning, we had a client that went to the Gatorade Hall of Fame, and saw one of the very first packages of that Gatorade came in. And it used to have a gram of sodium per serving, and then over the course of time, it's gotten much less power than in sodium, much higher power than in sugar. 

Melanie Avalon: This might have answered Melissa's question, which when I first read her question, it never occurred to me what the answer might be, but based on what you just said, I'm wondering if this might be the answer. She said, “I have tried so hard to drink the raw unflavored LMNT packet in my water and I can't get beyond the salty taste. I've even tried half a packet at a time. Is this a taste you grow accustomed to over time? I know I would benefit from the electrolytes during my fast. but I'm really struggling. So, would that be something where her body is just saying she doesn't need that amount of salt? 

Robb Wolf: It could be or she may be legitimately more sensitive to that sodium taste, I would still try doing at least 32 ounces for that dilution. I know folks get a little bit-- this is a value judgment here. So, this is Robb's opinion corner real quick, but I think people get a little bit neurotic on how fastidious they are with their fasts. They look at it the flavored version and they see some stevia and they're like, “Oh my God, I can't do stevia because it elevates insulin levels.”  

One thing with that is it elevates insulin levels in some people not all. Even if it does elevate insulin levels, it's super transient, and it is remarkably small. This is possibly problematic when we're in a situation where folks are eating a mixed diet and this sweet beverage is going to cause people to spin out and make dodgy food choices. But something to keep in mind too, is even if we get a little bump in insulin while we're fasting, what is that ultimately going to do? It's going to lower blood sugar levels on the back end of that and elevate ketone levels. Net-net, I just don't see where that's all that concerning. People will see that it's got a couple of calories in there because there's a little bit of malic acid and citric acid, fasting and autophagy and all the associated benefits in fasting. It's not an on or off switch, it's more of like a dimmer switch. If we're going from consuming normally 2000-2500 calories a day, and then you use an electrolyte product that facilitates you sticking to your fast for multiple days and you're consuming like 10 calories a day as a consequence, that is not a loss. Particularly, when overlaid with, well, you're not mentally able to continue because you feel like such garbage.  

I did a talk, and there's something, Melanie, if you reach back out to me I have a talk that I'd be willing to give to you and you could share it with your community, it's called Longevity: Are We Trying Too Hard? I released it right at the beginning of 2020 and then COVID hit and all the speaking gigs dried up and so this thing has just been sitting pretty much in darkness. But I really take a pretty critical look at, the way that folks are looking at fasting and intermittent fasting and that I think that folks are really over complicating this stuff. Valter Longo’s work, The Fasting Mimicking Diet, they're still eating 500 to 700 calories a day and they show virtually all the benefits that we get from 100% fast. And people recognize that and they acknowledge that, but then they get really twisted around when they notice if there's some stevia or a nominal amount of citric acid or malic acid in a product like LMNT.  

One thing for this person, I would definitely make sure to do the 32 ounces. And then, the other thing is try one of the flavored versions. It may really make that much easier, and if the fasting protocol is super important, I wouldn't sweat the little bit of stevia, a little bit of malic acid that's in there in the bigger context of garnering the benefits from the fast. 

Melanie Avalon: Perfect timing that you said that. I actually the episode coming out this week on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast is with Valter Longo. We've had him on this show and then I had him back on the other show. I love talking with him. We get a lot of questions though. He has a messaging about anti fasting because of the gallbladder, which is a whole rabbit hole tangent. So, yeah, as far as I'm actually more closer in line with you on your thoughts with all this because my cohost Gin, is her thing is that the clean fast and so just water, just coffee. I think that does work really well for a lot of people, especially if people have been-- haven't tried that. And they've been struggling and a lot of people do find when they do cut out the sweeteners that when they go to that approach, it really helps.  

I know for me, when I started fasting, I actually used stevia, and a lot of things like that, and I was fine. So, listeners, I'm not undoing everything I've said. I will say that I am definitely more open to the possibility that for some people, it's not going to be as much of a problem. Yeah, like Elaine said, “Does it break the fast? Will the stevia in it stimulate an insulin response and make me want more?” Becky wanted to know if it's clean, fast, friendly electrolytes? Are they necessary for fasting? That was actually a separate question. But so to clarify for listeners, the clean fast approved LMNT version, especially with Gin Stephens is the raw unflavored, but the other ones, they don't have sugar, they are sweetened with stevia. And so, it might be that they might work for you, I will say. 

Robb Wolf: Yeah. And that's this great thing of just tinker and see. I will say the central backbone of this whole story is this process called the naturesis of fasting, the loss of sodium due to fasting. And so this is something that was catalogued, I think, more than 100 years ago. And it's super well understood that people lose prodigious amounts of water and sodium while fasting in particular, and also ketogenic diets but those are lesser magnitude. I'm of the opinion that if you're going to stretch this out much beyond a day, that it is going to be really sufferville if you're not topping off electrolytes in that process. Some people are really mentally tough, they can do it. But I think for folks that are just not into the headaches and the lethargy, and the super low energy and all that stuff, like topping off electrolytes by hook or by crook, somewhere in this thing is going to really improve the ability to stick with that fast over the duration that you want to do it. 

Melanie Avalon: So, to clarify, it would be the fast longer than 24 hours where that's really going to become an issue? 

Robb Wolf: I think it's going to become really important at the longer point, yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Chris Masterjohn had, I don't know if it was one of his podcasts or if it was just like a Q&A, but he had a really good conversation about when are you actually fasted? It was like what you were just saying about something being a dimmer switch. I have to find a link and put a link to it in the show notes, because it made me think, it was like, “Oh, how do you even really quantify what is fasting?” Especially because there's just the nature of the timeline of food and us and what different fuels we're using, and he was making the point that you could be fasted, but you could be running on glucose and so what does that mean? I thought it was a really good nuanced perspective. I also want to ask, so that longevity talk that you did, because I remember leading up to it, you talking about it a lot on your show, and then, so did you have it? 

Robb Wolf: I did it once at the Metabolic Health Summit. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: I want to watch it. Question to clarify about the diet because you were talking about the keto. So, Stephanie says, “How much sodium should you consume if you are low carb or keto versus not low carb?” And then Joel wants to know, “What's a good dose to take of LMNT while one is on keto? And does it matter about male versus female?” In general, is it a massively bigger requirement if you're keto compared to not keto? Do some people not even need electrolytes if they're not keto? 

Robb Wolf: Again, it's going to depend a little bit on what-- so when we're talking about electrolytes, we are talking about all of the food we consume and in potentially something supplemental like LMNT. I love soups. I make soups all the time, I make soup for breakfast some time and I'll add a significant amount of sodium or even like a bouillon cube to that. So, in that situation, like I'm good, I ticked my box for that. It really depends. Again, how large or small is a person, what's their physical activity level. In general, this is worth mentioning, this is kind of the way that we bracket things with LMNTs on our science pages.  

There's some good research that suggests that all cause mortality is lowest at about 5 grams of sodium intake per day, for a general population, which is about double what the USDA and the AMA and whatnot recommend. They recommend less than 2 grams per day. But it's worth mentioning that some cultures like the Japanese and Okinawans consistently consumed 10 to 11 grams of sodium per day, and they don't have dramatically higher rates of cardiovascular disease, they have less. And this is usually the main concern in all those stories. And, generally, most of the cardiovascular risk in all this is due to chronically elevated insulin levels. And low carb diets and fasting are great ways to address that. They're not the only tools in the shed, but they're good ways to address that. Five grams per day from all dietary sources seems like a safe beginning place for most people to play with. If somebody is on a ketogenic diet, I just can't imagine them feeling or doing well at anything much below that, like it's going to be really hard to make things work. If somebody is put on a medically supervised ketogenic diet, the dietitian will make sure to prescribe at least 5 grams of sodium per day. So, that's kind of a low inbound. 

We look over it, some very mainstream American Council of Sports Medicine recommendations for more vigorous activity. And even the ACSM, which is in this very high carb centric camp, they recommend 7 to 10 grams of sodium per day for athletes training in heat or humidity. We've definitely seen that reflected within our populations. Small female CrossFit Games competitor, she's doing 12 grams of sodium per day. Again, from all sources, it doesn't mean they're doing 12 stick packs of LMNT. They're eating salami and salting their food and getting all different sources in here. So, I would say somewhere between that like 5 and 10 grams of sodium per day is going to address virtually every person's needs, especially if they're in more that, that low carb side of things. And again, can't emphasize it enough, not saying you do 5 or 10 stick packs of LMNT today. If you do, that's fine. Whatever makes things best for you. But I get more than half of my daily sodium needs from just dietary background, not from stick packs of LMNT. 

Melanie Avalon: What is the role? You touched on this earlier, but the role of carbs with the need for that. I've noticed for me, what's interesting is because I oscillate between either low fat or low carb. And if I'm low carb, I will feel the need for more electrolytes. But if I'm low fat and doing higher carb, I don't feel that need as much, but I'm not adding any sodium through the carbs, because it's just fruit.  

Robb Wolf: But your body is retaining more of the sodium because of the greater insulin load. Insulin goes up, aldosterone goes up, and then your body will be more effective, but retaining sodium. Just real quick that in that low carb state, your body is really primed to offload sodium, it is actively offloading sodium, so you have to get out ahead of that even more aggressively. 

Melanie Avalon: That makes sense. This is a question we get about LMNT. Stephanie says, “I've heard bad things about “natural flavors,” given it's an LMNT ingredient, what are your thoughts on natural flavors? And should we avoid them?” And then Mary Ann said, “Where are the natural flavors derived from?” 

Robb Wolf: Yeah. It varies a bit. Let's take watermelon for an example. Watermelon is in the same family as cucumbers. And if you really close your eyes when you drink a little bit of the watermelon, and if we were to tell people, “Hey, this is cucumber,” and you start sipping on the watermelon, it'll taste like cucumber. And it's because there are the same natural compounds that exist in both of these plants. So, what you end up in, I went into this thing, oftentimes people will say, “Oh, you guys are being nefarious.” And it's like, “No, there's just limited--, there's matter and energy and physics and chemistry, and there's just certain constraints on this stuff.” We have a flavor profile that has a certain assortment of chemicals that you could find in either watermelon or cucumber. And cucumbers have some other things that aren't in watermelon, but if there were two Venn diagrams of watermelon and cucumber in the chemicals that make up their flavor profile, there's a ton of similarity, but there's also some, some differences.  

In these natural sourcing stories or natural flavors stories, like if it's a citrus flavor, sometimes that comes from lemon, sometimes that comes from lime, sometimes that might come from grapefruit or something like that. So, it really depends on what we're catering to those that this is a non-synthetic source of the flavor constituent, and it is derived from oftentimes a variety of different food sources. But if we were to run it through this thing called HPLC, or a gas chromatograph, where we separate out every single chemical constituent in there, then we would see little graphic peaks that indicate, “Oh, this is d-limonene and this is this one, and this is cinnamon aldehyde. And so that is where these natural flavors come from. I wish that there were supernatural flavors, but there's not. We haven't found super flavors from another dimension. And the other alternative is synthetic flavors which honestly is a chemist, whether-- at the end of the day whether they came out of a lab beaker or the chemical factories within a line peeled, it does end up being the same molecule at the end of the day. But the natural flavor sourcing provides this really rich bouquet of flavor and smell and that's the reason why we go with that. And the reason why it's not more specific is the exact sourcing varies from batch to batch. They might use, again, for watermelon there might be a little bit more sourcing out of cucumbers this time versus watermelon because they're trying to hit a certain flavor profile with that.  

We're really not trying to be nefarious and as always, the reason why we did the wrong flavored, we knew no matter how perfectly we tried to put together the flavored versions, for somebody it's not going to spin their propeller, they're going to have objections with either stevia or the natural flavors or whatever, and that's where the raw unflavored is, and then even layer beyond that. We still have our free KetoAide formula, where you use this much table salt, this much no salt, this much magnesium citrate or magnesium malate and you flavor it or don't flavor it exactly the way you want. Just make sure that you get your electrolytes addressed. 

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Melanie Avalon: I will say speaking to the nefariousness, today I just right before this signed the final forms because I'm creating my own supplement. But I have learned so much about labeling and what you can say and what things mean and it's just a whole world, so I bet you probably learned a lot creating this, about the whole supplement creation. 

Robb Wolf: We really did and we thought it was going to be a simpler process than what it was. We've been as transparent with things as we can. We still have a money back guarantee deal, like you buy it, you don't like it, we'll refund your money, we'll send you a different box. We'll bend over backwards to accommodate people, but also folks always make the decision that is best for you given your risk tolerances, or your goals and all that type of stuff. But I do also think a lot of this, if it gets filed under the majoring in the minors, people with really significant health concerns, they have some gut issues and stuff like that, I get it. I'm celiac, so I definitely can't tolerate any type of gluten exposure and stuff like that. And there are people with some complex health issues, that knowing the exact details of natural flavors, they might be really reactive to nightshades or something, they would like to know whether or not that is a constituent in there. I do acknowledge that, but I think for a lot of people, again, they can probably simplify this stuff and not worry so much about those exacting details all the time. 

Melanie Avalon: I will say since you mentioned the grapefruit, we did have just a little testimonial and request from Margaret. She says, “Please ask him to bring back the grapefruit flavor permanently. And tell him thanks for the awesome product. They helped me fast and have helped relieve muscle cramps. My husband takes them to the golf course and also gives them to his friends when playing golf. They've kept him from getting dizzy and dehydrated all summer. People are amazed at how they feel so much better, and only about 15 minutes after drinking these. LMNT is one of my favorite things ever!” Is this grapefruit flavor coming back by chance? 

Robb Wolf: It's coming back but I do think it's going to remain a seasonal option. I don't know that it's going to become a permanent feature in the lineup. I think it's going to remain seasonal similar to what we are launching in November with our fall flavor. When it's here, folks need to jump on it. [laughs] Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Well, I think we got, yeah, most of the stuff. We did have a question about saunas. Like Joan said, “Do you need to take electrolytes when using a sauna?” Brian said, “If you take an infrared sauna daily, should you supplement them each time?” Would that also be an intuitive thing kind of like the working out? 

Robb Wolf: When people say need, “Do you need to do this?” I don't need to, but I think that your sauna experience is going to be a lot better if you are properly hydrated and have adequate electrolyte levels. You don't need to run with good fitting shoes, appropriate gear for the weather and all that stuff. It's 32 degrees outside right now, so I could go barefoot running in a pair of like Navy SEAL short shorts and go do it but it's going to be terrible. My feet are going to be cold, everything else is going to be cold, the drizzle is going to make it miserable, but I didn't need to do that. But even a pair of like Vibram Barefoots and some mittens on my hands and a beanie on my head would make that whole thing way more enjoyable and I would actually get more out of the training experience because I would probably be able to stay in and do the whole thing.  

The deal with sauna, oftentimes, I don't think folks are even fully aware of why they're doing something. What is the benefit of sauna? I really see it being two pronged. The first prong is the cardiovascular fitness that people obtain from that elevated heart rate while experiencing that heat stress. It's a non-trivial thing. People can maintain a good cardiopulmonary function, by just doing sauna, in wrestlers and some other weight category athletes will curtail their physical activity and rely on sauna to maintain some cardiovascular fitness while weight cutting and doing some different things like that. So, but to get the benefit, you need to be in the sauna about 20-25 minutes at a minimum. If you can't motor through that long without electrolytes, then that's a problem. You're not really getting a benefit. These benefits around heat shock proteins and the anti-aging effects that people get from that, it's a dose response curve. The longer you stay in, the better the kind of response there is.  

And if you start experiencing really severe heat stress because your body's out of water, your body's out of sodium, then you're not going to stay in there as long as what you would have done otherwise. The goal why is one doing the sauna? Well, there are these benefits. Well, the better you can optimize your performance doing that, the more benefit you're going to get from it. I get nervous about like, “Do I need this?” I don't know if you need it, but if you want to garner the most benefits from it, you take more appropriate steps and proper hydration is part and parcel to that. I see it a little bit like, do people need to eat adequate protein when strength training? No, you don't need to, but you're going to get really lackluster results. If you're eating like 30 grams of protein a day and you're strength training, it's better that you're strength training the night, but you're certainly not going to get the benefit of eating 100, 120 grams of protein a day. The need question, I think, there's a better question to be asked behind that, like, what is the benefit here? That would be something that I would throw out to folks instead of asking, “Do I need this?” Like, how do I optimize results? If we were talking about money and finances, how do I optimize my return on investment with this. If I could get a 3x return doing this, but a 10x return doing that, and there's no additional danger or downside, then clearly, I would want that 10x return. So, I would really encourage people to couch these things not so much in like, do I need this? Or do I need that, but how am I optimizing things and what is my goal for even doing this?  

So often, I see folks start fasting or doing sauna and they will ask a question around it. And I'll say, “Well, what is your goal here?” And I get like deer in the headlights look and they're like, “I don't actually know why I'm doing this.” [laughs] Well, that's a problem. If you don't even know why you're doing it, then how do we gauge whether it's a good or bad thing? Whether then maybe it's like, “Well, I'm just going to try out sauna and see what it feels like.” Okay, that's cool. That's totally cool, but we're getting in and getting more sophisticated about this, like we got to move beyond this like, “Do I need this or do I need that? What's optimizing returns?” 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad you said all of that. Speaking to that, so I do an infrared sauna session pretty much every night. The reason I do it is, the cardiovascular benefits for sure, the stress relief, it makes me feel so good. But then the third thing is the detox and the sweating. And this is the question I've actually had about salt intake and electrolytes and sauna because I was speaking earlier about how I can tell how long it takes for me to offload a high salt intake day. And that's how I tell. I was like, “How do I tell?” It's from the sauna. So, like that night, the next night and then maybe the third night, I will sweat much more in the sauna and then it goes down. Do you know if there's a therapeutic benefit to sweating more in the sauna? 

Robb Wolf: I would say that there is just spaced around, you're more likely to stay there longer, but if the timing is the same-- so your suffering is-- I would guess that your suffering is probably less on these high sweat days. If you ever noticed that, like your perceived suffering. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you do infrared sauna? Or do you do traditional heat sauna? 

Robb Wolf: I do both. Mainly traditional hot sauna. The place that we go to is like 200 degrees, so it is no joke in there. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I have a Sunlighten, and I have their solo unit where your head isn't even in it. So, it's remarkably pleasant. Like I could stay in there for three hours. I don't, but I'm not a good gauge for that but if it were unpleasant, I could see how that would definitely be a factor. 

Robb Wolf: Yeah, like this 200 degrees, if I'm not topped off on electrolytes, I maybe make it 10 minutes and then I am in a panic to get out. If somebody is on the other side of the door, I'm like, “You better move because [laughs] I'm coming out fast.” Whereas if I'm topped off on electrolytes, like 10 minutes it starts getting uncomfortable, but I make it to 20 minutes and the perceived suffering, like my relative perceived exertion or whatever, if we're using like exercise terms it's a lot less if I'm properly topped off on electrolytes. And I'm not an expert on, I know that infrared in particular is really powerful for inducing some of that mitochondrial biogenesis and stimulating some of the detox through the skin but I'm not well versed on like-- I would assume that some of that is moving-- all the water-soluble stuff is moving with the fluids, and so if you've got more fluid to offload then you're just potentially transporting more. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I mean that was my thought that maybe like the detox, I know people think that's like a woo-woo thing, but the sweating detox aspect of it might be greater if you're sweating more. 

Robb Wolf: Yeah. The detox associated with fasting is a no joke deal. I mean, like phthalates and xenoestrogens and doesn't really address heavy metals, but all of these fat and water-soluble chemicals that we're inundated with in modern world, it's legit there. Oh, gosh, I'm blinking on his name, but he's a Mayo Clinic researcher who's super sharp on this stuff. He wrote the book Estrogeneration, Anthony Jay. He would be a great person for the podcast, but he's posted great research, good peer reviewed stuff where they're actually like assaying the contents of the sweat and you're getting gunk out of there for sure. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I did a deep dive into the sauna literature and I think it's very promising, such as the cardiovascular health and all of that. One last electrolyte question. “Is it okay for kids?” Theresa says, “Are they okay for kids?” Katie says, “Are they good for kids younger than 10?” And then Amanda says, she has teens who have been media hyped into thinking Gatorade is healthy. So, is it good for them? 

Robb Wolf: Yeah, I think that it's great for kids. One of our big goals with LMNT is to upend this childhood obesity story and so much of that starts at the youth sports level where these kids, youth soccer, these five-year-old kids, they run around for 30 minutes and then they've got juice and Gatorade. It's like they barely did anything. They don't need their glycogen stores topped off yet again. What we do for our kids is I have a big 64-ounce pitcher and we're normally for myself, I do one stick pack per 32 ounces. With the girls end up doing it, it's technically a 34-ounce container, but I'm able to get 80 ounces in it. I do two stick packs in there and then I end up with 80 ounces of water. So, it's like I was doing one stick back and 40 ounces. I just keep that topped off and the girls completely self-regulate that. I don't monitor it at all. They either do water or that based off of what they want and they seem to do great with it.  

There's certainly no need to add carbs at that point. If they were doing some sort of really hard physical activity, like a soccer tournament where they've got six games over the course of a weekend and each game is 90 minutes, then we're going to start talking some different stuff. But even then, I would mainly to try to address their energy needs via whole foods, not drinking liquid calories, but yeah, it's totally, totally fine for kids. All I do is just dilute it a little bit more than what I do for myself. And I don't even know if that's necessary just the kids really enjoy it that way. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, awesome. Listeners, moms, you can get it for the whole family. I just have three quick questions. They're not super sciency or intense like that, but they're about the regenerative agriculture. I was wondering if we could end with that, because it's so important to me. Sophia says, “Has Robb seen any change on the heels of publishing Sacred Cow? It seems that more people are interested in regenerative agriculture, but I'm in that space. So, it's hard to judge. And then similar to that Sherry says, “How far along are we with convincing farmers? Does he see regenerative farming becoming the norm in our lifetime at least in Western society”? So, I was wondering after Sacred Cow and the documentary, which by the way, listeners, you have got to watch and read. Have you seen any change specific to that and also the future, do you see change happening? Are you optimistic? 

Robb Wolf: I'm still mixed. I have seen change happen. Diana Rodgers just had an outreach from some industry folks, actually, and putting together an institute for education around this stuff. Now, industry backing these things is always dodgy because, “This study on milk brought to you by the dairy industry, this study on corn brought to you by the corn.” There's always challenges with that, but nobody else cares enough to put any money into this, but there is a lot more interest. There is more pushback around the standard climate change narrative, that grazing animals are like the primary driver of climate change, which is one of these really common things out in the world. It's a tough thing to push back against. I don't want to overlay politicize this, but we're in a weird spot now. We're even saying, “Hey, we need to have a nuanced discussion around climate change.” All of a sudden, that will go to, “Will you deny climate change? So, you're probably a holocaust denier and you're certainly also a racist.” It's just this like, “How did I end up here?” It's a weird spot in the world to be motoring through this stuff. But there are definitely more and more folks, and interestingly, it's developing countries that are adopting this because developing countries are poised to be crushed by the diabesity epidemic. They are starting to wake up to the danger of having all or most of their food distributed to them from the industrial food complex.  

This is the flip side of this, there is massive money, absolutely ungodly amounts of money that are going into the fake meat, the lab grown meat. There are things that have come to light that two or three years ago, I suspected were true. But it was super tinfoil hat stuff, and then I've actually seen World Economic Forum documents on and I was like, “Holy shit, that's not a conspiracy theory. They're being honest about this stuff.” There's this goal that the consumption of red meat in particular would drop to the size of, basically your thumb per week per person.  

Now, on the heels of that, it's acknowledged, like, people in those same circles also say, “If we do this, then obesity will increase because people are eating such a low protein diet, that they're going to overeat everything else.” And we're also going to have all these nutrient deficiencies, these very plant-based diets look indistinguishable from the problems that we see in developing countries where people just don't get enough food. In particular, not enough animal products. Low B vitamin status, low zinc, low iron, developmental difficulties, pregnancy issues, and whatnot. But there's a mountain of money to be made from tying all of this story into climate change, and social justice topics. And there's all super legitimate compelling stuff in there. But it's also what's fascinating to me, Forbes actually had a great piece on this, and it said, the kind of vegan backed fake meat story was so ironic because the only winner in that is, is Big Food and Big Pharma. Those are the winners in this story. Your decentralized local food production is done with that.  

In many cases, there are initiatives that are being put forward that would make like your ability to go get locally raised, pastured meat, illegal or difficult, or tax it so that it becomes even more prohibitively expensive. And then who suffers from that? Poor people, ethnic minorities. There's a lot of ironic astroturfing and stuff like that, that's happening in this stuff. I'm optimistic on the one hand, but it's going to be a really big lift, like it's going to be a big lift. It's a complex topic to unpack, the process of unpacking it really quickly. You can get one labeled as some sort of like right wing extremist and most of the people doing regenerative Ag are like hippies from the 60s and 70s, they just really believed in pure natural food. [laughs] There is not right wing aligned as you could find someone, but just because they're like, “No, I really think that, here's this plot of land that we-- and here's all the desertified damage to the land 20 years ago, and now look at this like Verdun green oasis that we've produced by holistically managing these grazing animals.” And they have really solid outcome on that, but you become labeled a horrible person pretty quickly by advocating for that stuff.  

It's a complex topic that requires some nuance and some detail and in the current environment, and unfortunately, I feel going forward, it's very difficult to unpack those things and have discussions around them and there's so much-- one thing that that COVID did, it really awakened and people the sensed it like, everybody should do one thing for the greater good. Sometimes that's appropriate, sometimes that's completely inappropriate and really dangerous. And this is COVID, climate change, and social justice topics have all gotten wrapped together in this super ambiguous, easily manipulated fashion that even the real important stuff that needs to be addressed in these situations isn't really being addressed, because we can't talk about it in any meaningful way. So, I find that to be really difficult and dangerous. I guess, if folks believe in this regenerative vaccine, or even just curious about it, when they see people getting dog piled when they're trying to have a discussion like this, these are the folks that we need to stand up for, even to the tune of like they may be wrong, maybe Diana and I are totally wrong, we got all this stuff wrong, but we've carried sway with a good number of people. So, maybe we should have a big discussion around this so we can figure out what we did get wrong. Or maybe we're right about it. It would be helpful to get the winning methodology out there, so that we can scale this and make sure that this benefits many more people. 

Melanie Avalon: Censorship and not being able to talk about things, it's just frightening to an unbelievable amount in my opinion. And I cannot recommend enough that listeners read Sacred Cow. Now anytime that I have a conversation with somebody where they have a very one-sided opinion about the climate change and the role of farming and agriculture, I'm like, “Just read Sacred Cow and then let's have a discussion about it.” But I think what's so confusing, and it's confusing to me, is that it's just presented, especially the people that present a completely plant-based system for the sustainability of our future and our environment. It's just presented as fact. And it's coming from people who I think would know a lot about it, because they're so obsessed with it. It's confusing, just reading your book, I'm like, “Oh, wait, maybe this isn't actually what's going on. And maybe the stats are a little bit different than what we've been told.” It's very confusing, and there's just a lack of education. I understand why people are confused. I just thank you for what you're doing to spread more information about all of it. 

Robb Wolf: Thank you. I always think back to like the old Bugs Bunny cartoons where cartoon characters are in the military, and they're all lined up. And then they're like, “We have this dangerous mission and we need two volunteers.” And the whole line takes a step back, except the two idiots not paying attention. And I feel like that Diana and I are the two idiots we just looked around, we're like, “Oh my God, how did we end up here?” It's interesting. 

Just as a point here, I mentioned this in the news topic of my recent podcast, but for two decades, it's been recommended that folks with risk of cardiovascular disease should take a baby aspirin a day. This idea came about because it's understood that aspirin has some anti-thrombotic, some anti-clotting properties, and clots are at least a part of some cardiovascular events, some stroke events. There was some good thought behind it, there was a good hypothesis, there was a plausible mechanism, there was some research, it seemed to suggest that this was beneficial, but then as time motored forward, and we started looking at 5 years, 10 years, 20 years and people doing baby aspirin, and we looked at all-cause mortality, it didn't seem to benefit anybody, and it seemed to actually be doing damage, like the all-cause mortality was greater in the baby aspirin situations, than-- than the people who weren't taking the baby aspirin across these big groups, people. And correlation isn't always causation, but it starts becoming compelling, the larger the sample size, the more data that's there, and all that type of stuff.  

So, now, the American Medical Association and associated bodies are suggesting, don't take the baby aspirin. This is something that became medical orthodoxy, it was an idea that got tested, it looked promising. Time went by, and then more data was accumulated, and upon further review, it looks like it's more dangerous to take the baby aspirin in general than not. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that there are some people for whom that baby aspirin is likely a really smart move. And that's probably something that working with your doctor and maybe doing a little genetic testing and stuff like that to figure out if that really is a good fit for you, but at a population wide at a public health level implementation, they are completely upending that recommendation.  

When people say follow the science, you've got to have an understanding that science should have a sign on it. That says, “Good until further notice.” When you say the science is settled, unless we're talking about things a pool table, and billiard balls and we know the mass of the pool, pool balls and how the velocity and where they're going to bounce on this very simple system. Okay, the science is settled, gravity we can predict where the planets are thousand years from now. But when you get into even more complex systems, like biology and human health and public health, it's a really slippery slope to say much of anything [unintelligible [01:59:10]. Antibiotics save lives, healthy eating is good, proper sleep hygiene is incredibly beneficial, and then it starts getting really dubious from there. Exercise will improve the quality of your life. It probably won't extend the duration of your life. We have some understandings there, but then above and beyond that things get murky really fast. And then when we start talking about like a global food system and what should or shouldn't be, the mainstay and do we really want it even more mono-cropped and less variety, which is what a plant-based story. It's like people at the Arctic Circle are going to be eating greens raised at the middle latitudes. And does that make sense from a distribution perspective and a whole bunch of other things? 

Melanie Avalon: Well, to that point, so for people wanting to make change, Todd and Mary Ann, they say, “What is a good starting spot for those interested in regenerative agriculture?” She says, “I have huge chunk of land and want to make it bountiful.”  

Robb Wolf: Hmm.  

Melanie Avalon: Isn't that a great question? That made me so excited. [laughs] I was like, “Oh, tell me more, I'm jealous.” 

Robb Wolf: There's lots of things you could do. Running the animals yourself can be a big commitment. That's something we've wanted to do, but we just haven't been in a position to do ourselves. But if you are in a position to manage those animals yourself, you can reach out to a Savory Institute hub or Holistic Management International. And you can go through training courses, they'll help you figure out, so you live in this environment, and maybe sheep would be better than cows or whatever. You start thinking about the animals and the plants that you could do in that scenario.  

If you have a big chunk of land, but you aren't in a position to manage it yourself. We are friends with the roam free bison operation here in Northwestern Montana. And what those folks do, they own some significant chunks of land, but they've also leased land from some of the local Native American groups and some private individuals. So, you might open up your land for lease and you find somebody who is doing this holistic management process, and then afford them an opportunity to, to make use of that land into reinvigorate that land, because these grasslands co evolved with grazing animals. The two go hand in glove, and without grazing animals on that land, it will desertify--. It will revert to this kind of desertified area, that's a lot of like sagebrush and high erosion and not very productive. That stuff can be recovered. It takes a lot of effort and time. But it's better to head that off, and the way that you prevent that occurring is by implementing these Holistic Management Practice. So, making that land available for lease could be an amazing opportunity there.  

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Do you guys have land in Montana? 

Robb Wolf: Just a little bit. We're on two acres here. We're right on a little cattle lake. The HOA is preclude having any animals, but we are looking at some land within a 10-minute drive because both of the girls are getting into horseback riding, and we want to do some other kind of resiliency related stuff. We're looking at trying to find something within a short drive of where we are, and then we could start spinning up some of that stuff. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Very, very cool. Well, thank you so much, Robb, this has been absolutely amazing. I know listeners are going to love it, and I'm excited because now we can use it as like a resource episode that I can refer listeners to whenever we get questions about electrolytes and all the things. And I haven't even yet mentioned the amazing offer that you have for our audience, which, friends, if you haven't done this yet, you have got to get on this. It's a no brainer. You can actually go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That’s drink, L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IF Podcast. And you can get a free sampler pack for LMNT. Yes, completely free. You just pay a small shipping. And then I know Robb has made it known that even if you don't like it, for whatever reason, they will even reimburse you shipping. And that's been very, very popular with our audience. So, definitely get on that.  

Thank you so much. I'm just always forever in awe, and grateful for everything that you're doing. It has personally changed my life, I would not be doing what-- I'm almost crying again, I would not be doing what I'm doing today, if I not read your book. Listeners, if anybody has benefited from this show or from any of my shows or any of my content, I wouldn't be here without Robb Wolf. I'm not going to cry. Thank you. This has been amazing. So, I really can't thank you enough and hopefully we can connect again in the future. There are so many things, so many topics, but thank you for all that you do. 

Robb Wolf: Thank you. I've got to say there is no greater joy than knowing that one's-- I am going to start crying. There is no greater joy knowing that one's work has benefited someone else. And particularly someone like you, that you've helped so damn many people, so that that really is just the crown jewel of my life and my existence, is knowing that my work has mattered to you. So, thank you. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you. Have a wonderful rest of your evening. Enjoy the cold. I'm so jealous. Enjoy the snow flurries. 

Robb Wolf: I will. I'm going to take the dog for a walk, and it's a little bit of snow flurries, so we'll see how he handles it. He's kind of a wimp in the cold. I'm going to have to buy him a jacket. 

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, have a good evening. Thank you. 

Robb Wolf: You, too. Bye-bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

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Oct 24

Episode 236: Non Scale Victories, BMI, Hip-to-Waist Ratio, Ketone Esters, BHB Salts, Endurance Athletes, Exercise Performance, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 236 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Feedback: Susan - Feedback about doing IF as and intense exerciser 

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 236 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny® Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

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Plus, their products taste amazing. Oh, my goodness, friends, I am a steak girl. ButcherBox filet is one of the best filets I have ever tasted in my entire life. I recently gave my family some of their grass-fed, grass-finished beef, and my mom told me it was the best ground beef she had ever tasted. My brother also adores their bacon. Yep, if you want pastured heritage-breed bacon that is sugar and nitrate free, you can get that at ButcherBox. I'm also a scallop girl, and their wild-caught scallops are delicious, and I can finally feel good about the transparency with that because friends, the seafood industry is very, very sketchy. A 2013 Oceana study found that one-third of seafood in grocery stores and restaurants was mislabeled. Farmed salmon is often labeled as wild salmon, and other fish species are just complete lies. It's honestly very shocking. 

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And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds including endocrine disrupters which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare and makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body.  

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show. 

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 236 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: Well, I am looking at the ocean, so that is always a good thing. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: How is the ocean looking? 

Gin Stephens: It looks fabulous. I'm taking a really quick two-day trip, just two nights, which is never long enough. But our last renter of the season left, the renter that was here for a month, and so I had to come and like flip everything, get it ready just for us. So, that was exciting. Can I tell you something that I have learned about seagulls?  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, please do.  

Gin Stephens: When you're out on the beach and you see the seagulls, you just never really know where do they live? Do they stay in the same area? They do. We have this one seagull that lives right here by my house that has something wrong with his leg. So, when he flies one leg dangles down, and he can't use it. When he lands, you can tell he can't really bear weight on it. I have seen that same seagull all summer. And I saw him yesterday and I was so excited. 

Melanie Avalon: Is it possible because he has an injured leg that he doesn't travel far? 

Gin Stephens: Well, it is possible, but he's got his little friends and they're all together. I mean, they feel like they're a community. It's totally possible. He does everything the other seagulls do though. I mean, he flies with them, [laughs] they seem to be seagull friends. He's just right there with them. 

Melanie Avalon: One of my best friends was telling me how he had the epiphany recently that the bird that is outside his house is the same bird. He thought it was like a different bird for the longest time. 

Gin Stephens: No, I really think that they live somewhere. Like this bird, this is where he lives. I'm saying he, it could be a she, I don't know. [laughs] But I've seen him all season. I was so excited, I'll be like, “I got to see that bird. Where's that bird? I saw a whole group of them, and I walked over and there it was, and it just made me happy. I just want that bird to be okay, because when I first saw it, I was like, “Oh, no, I hope that bird's okay. I hope it doesn't die.” Nope. That's just how the bird lives. He seems just to be living his best life even though he's got, like, that doesn't work the same way.  

Melanie Avalon: It's motivational.  

Gin Stephens: It is motivational. Anyway, that bird makes me happy. That just tells you my life. [laughs] I'm out here communing with the birds. [laughs] So, what's up with you?  

Melanie Avalon: I had a moment, was it yesterday, I think. We're continuing production on my Serrapeptase supplement. I've been saying the brand name like when I talked about it on my other show and on the pre-order list. I'm formulating it with, was like, “You do have the trademark, right?” I was like, “No,” and he's like, “You need to take down everything and get the trademark now.” 

Gin Stephens: And that doesn't happen easily or quickly.  

Melanie Avalon: Because I was headed out to something. I was like, “I can do it tomorrow. “He's like, “You really need to do it now.” And I was like, “Okay.” [laughs] I learned really quickly. I think it's interesting how you can learn so much about like a niche topic really quickly if you have to. I got in the trademark registration government website and learned a lot really, really quick. I didn't know this. You probably know this because you've registered. You've registered copyrights or trademarks? 

Gin Stephens: Well, I have copyrights. They're two separate things obviously, you know this, but copyrights are for my books, I've registered those. Trademarks are different. I do have one trademark and it is for Delay, Don't Deny is as a title in a series. You cannot register a trademark for a title of a book in isolation. People don't realize that. That's why there can be a million books out there, all called Fast. Feast. Repeat. that are put out by those people that are the copycats and there's nothing we can do legally, because you can absolutely use a title, but Delay, Don't Deny because it's in a series, like Chicken Soup for the Soul. In order to trademark it, I had to produce several different things, and so I did and got a trademark, but it's not something that happens overnight. The process takes months. 

Melanie Avalon: I would have thought you register the trademark before having the product, but to actually have the trademark, the product has to be created and in use, like being sold. 

Gin Stephens: Or you have to show that you're actively doing it or something. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, basically. What I registered was intent to use, but it's not official until I have a specimen. 

Gin Stephens: Exactly. And if you never have a specimen, you lose it. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: We'll have a specimen really pretty soon because we're really moving forward with the labels on the production and finalizing the formulation, so I'm not concerned about it. That was just so counterintuitive to me. I would have thought you registered before creation, but the officialness comes after. 

Gin Stephens: I guess it's to keep people from just registering all words. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that does make sense. 

Gin Stephens: So, you can't just like grab everything good. “Sorry, you'll have to buy this from me because I have it registered." Right? 

Melanie Avalon: That completely makes sense, because otherwise you would just register everything.  

Gin Stephens: Exactly. And then you would be like the wealthy and you would hold it, you would hold it. Yeah, but you can't, so at least thank goodness for that. 

Melanie Avalon: So, that was exciting. Now I have the document and it's very exciting. Today's Sunday we should be getting back tomorrow hopefully like the final word on the formulations and we're lab testing other companies to see what's actually in them. I'm just so, so excited. So, I will say for listeners, my goal was to create a Serrapeptase with no fillers, but now we don't know if that's actually possible with the machines and that's why we're lab testing the other companies because we don't believe they're actually doing it with no fillers. There's only-- there're so many Serrapeptase brands, but there's two that make it seem like they don't have fillers, but we don't believe them. What we've learned from like things they can say on the labels, I'm just learning so much. So, rest assured, I promise my version of it will be the cleanest best version on the market that there is. I'm very excited.  

Gin Stephens: I am not surprised at all about that. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: So, yeah, I'm going to make this one and then I'm going to make all the other things like taking. For, listeners, just really quick. Listeners are probably familiar, but basically, it's a--Serrapeptase, it's a proteolytic enzyme, created originally by the Japanese silkworm. You take it in the fasted state, breaks down residual proteins in the body. So it can address-- there's so much research on it. It can address inflammation, brain fog, fibroids, that's what Gin originally took it for. It breaks on amyloid plaque and Alzheimer's. It reduces cholesterol, it reduces fatty deposits. It makes antibiotics more effective, so it can combat antibiotic resistance. It breaks down biofilms. It's literally just like a wonder supplement. And you can just take it for daily use as well. So, the link to get on the pre-order list because I do anticipate that it will sell out is melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase. S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. Oh, my goodness, I'm so excited. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm glad. You've learned a lot, right? 

Melanie Avalon: I have learned so much. That's one of the funniest parts of it all. I just love learning.  

Gin Stephens: It really is. I love learning, too. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I feel very empowered now to talk more, not with authority because I don't want to say I'm an authority figure, but I can talk with more information and knowledge about the supplement industry. So, yes.  

Gin Stephens: Well, that's always good.  

Melanie Avalon: Yep. So, shall we jump into everything for today? 

Gin Stephens: Yes. Let's get started. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so to start things off, we have listener feedback. It's from Susan. The subject is “Feedback about doing IF as an intense exerciser.” Susan said, “Hi there, Melanie and Gin. First of all, I know everyone says this, but I am so thankful for finding your podcast, and I've listened to every episode, and it has had such an incredible impact on my life. I am 49, soon to be the big 50 in November, and I've been doing IF with a clean fast, of course, since January 2020. I exercise five days a week, three runs, ranging from 45 minutes to two hours, and two intense one-hour cross training sessions a week. I also walk for about an hour on top of this most days. My feedback to you is that my window each day ranges from 16:8 to 23:1, depending on the day and how I feel. I never eat before noon and always exercise in the mornings. I just wanted to let you know that I feel better than I have ever felt exercising in the fasted state. I would never again eat before exercising.” I just want to jump in and say I agree so much. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Somebody in our community was just earlier this week was like, “Well, I was working out and I got really, really sick and dizzy and shaky. And I ate a salad right before I did the workout.” I'm like, “That's why, [laughs] you didn't have enough to fuel the workout.”  

Melanie Avalon: The idea of exercising with food in my stomach is just very unappealing to me now, it just feels heavy and-- 

Gin Stephens: Wrong. It feels so heavy. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: She says, “I don't even feel hungry when I'm done. I just eat when I get hungry. Even after a two-hour run, I'm not experiencing any “need” for food. The funny thing is I used to always eat breakfast, I'm a whole food healthy eater, which was oats with milk and cinnamon before my exercise. There were many days in my past that I would experience signs of low blood sugar, trembling, sweating, weakness, fuzzy brain, etc. And would have to stop exercising and have a quick bite, so as not to faint.” I have to say something about this, circle back. 

Gin Stephens: I also did too, I just want to say that's exactly what the person said she experienced after eating before working out. It was that exactly. 

Melanie Avalon: That exact same thing.  

Gin Stephens: Yes. Trembling, sweating, weakness, feeling sick. Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: She says, “I have not had one moment of this since starting IF, best thing ever. A side note, I started if because I had gained about 10 pounds and couldn't at the time figure out why, since I hadn't changed anything in my routine or diet. I have since learned it was likely hormonal, I lost that weight easily, have maintained it easily. And the health benefits of IF are incredible. So, I will never ever stop this incredible lifestyle. I read your books, listen to all the podcasts and I'm so thankful for you two.” 

Gin Stephens: Yay, Susan.  

Melanie Avalon: And I like this email a lot from Susan because, as listeners know, Gin and I are not regularly going on to our runs. We can't really speak to that. It's nice to hear from people who do and how they're performing well in the fasted state.  

Gin Stephens: It really is. 

Melanie Avalon: My little quick thing was I fainted this week, Gin. 

Gin Stephens: What? I've never fainted, not one time in my entire life. 

Melanie Avalon: And the thing about it is, remember when we answered that question about giving blood and I was really hesitant because I had fainted once before drawing blood? 

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: And that was 10 years ago. I have had my blood drawn so many times, so I thought I was over it. And I wasn't even having my blood drawn, I was getting an IV for glutathione and vitamin C for just health and wellness. And she couldn't get the IV in, like she kept poking me and it wasn't working. And then she kind of like, I don't know, poked me internally, and it really hurt. I thought I was fine. So, she wasn't drawing any blood, but something about it just psyched out my-- what's it called the vasovagal? 

Gin Stephens: I guess so. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: A vagal response. I started feeling nauseous. I was like, I think I'm going to faint. What's funny is I don't even remember leading up to the fainting. She said she like tried to get me to drink water, and I was like not having it.  

Gin Stephens: So, you don't even remember it? 

Melanie Avalon: I remember feeling nauseous and I don't remember leading up to it. And then I just remember coming to when I was shaking, which is scary because then I was googling like seizures versus fainting. Apparently, you can shake when you faint. It doesn't mean you're having a seizure. It's so scary--. It's like really scary. The scary thing about it is it makes you realize just how not in control you are of your body with something. It's like if your body decides to faint, like there's nothing you can do. 

Gin Stephens: Well, that's true.  

Melanie Avalon: The equivalent if you haven't fainted, it's like when you're put under for anesthesia, it just happens, and then you just wake up, it's like that. So, you haven't fainted? 

Gin Stephens: Never. [laughs] Are you surprised? 

Melanie Avalon: No. Now, I'm really hoping it doesn't spark. I felt I'd gotten over my fear response about fainting again, ever since fainting 10 years ago. And I'm like, “Oh.” Now I'm going to be worried again every time I draw blood.  

Gin Stephens: Well, don't worry about it. Just go in there knowing it's not going to happen. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's the mindset I've been having. And thankfully it wasn't during drawing blood. So, wonderful listeners would like to write in with their experiences. So, I feel not alone. Yeah, it's the worst.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I can imagine. It does seem like it would be the worst. 

Melanie Avalon: It's just very scary. It's just very confusing, because you don't know what's happening. And then you feel like-- 

Gin Stephens: And you really can't control it.  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.  

Gin Stephens: It was one of those things, like, I don't know, when I was growing up, and we'd be like on stage singing with the chorus and someone would faint. Everybody was like, you remember how that would happen? Like they said it was because you locked your knees, then you would faint? I don't really know. So, they're like, “Don't lock your knees or you’ll faint,” but people would faint on stage. And I'd be like, “That looks so dramatic. I would like to faint.” When you see someone's crutches, and signing their cast, you're like, “I want to do that, too.” You're like, “No, you really don't.” But when you're a kid, you're like, “That looks fun.” I don't know now, that sounds dumb. But you know what I'm talking about? 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I always thought it looks so dramatic in movies. When women would faint like, “Huh.” And it's like, “Oh, wow, that's so poetic.” [laughs] But, yeah, it's not fun. It's scary.  

Gin Stephens: No, I wouldn't think so.  

Melanie Avalon: And, of course, my first thought was, “I want my mother.” That's always I feel like my first thought when anything traumatic happens. It's like the fear response. So, all is well. Thankfully, it was with a nurse obviously. And she said she knew I was about to faint. She was like-- she just knew, it just had to happen. There's nothing she could do.  

Gin Stephens: They know the signs, I'm sure.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's like, “Well, just got to let this happen.”  

Hi, friends. I am a huge proponent of getting our nutrition from food. When all else fails, I feel food is the way to go. That said, there are some nutrients that are super hard to get in today's environment. Did you know that 80% of the population is deficient in magnesium? Our soils are so depleted of magnesium today, that it's really, really hard to get enough of this crucial mineral. It's actually the number one mineral to fight stress, fatigue, and sleep issues. I've been doing a lot of research on minerals, especially the calcium magnesium balance, and I walk away from so many conversations I have with experts just realizing more and more how important magnesium is. I personally love magnesium for its stress reducing effects, as well as helping with my digestive issues. 

Yes, magnesium is the single most-studied mineral in existence. It actually powers over 600 critical reactions and our bodies. Did you know that there are multiple types of magnesium? That's why I am so excited to share with you, the magnesium product that I discovered, is called Magnesium Breakthrough by BiOptimizers, and it combines all seven essential forms of magnesium into one convenient supplement. Most magnesium supplements actually fail, because they are synthetic and are not full spectrum. But, when you get all seven critical forms of magnesium, pretty much every function in your body gets upgraded, from your brain to your sleep, pain and inflammation and less stress. 

With this one simple action, you can help reverse your magnesium deficiency and all of its forms. This is by far the most complete magnesium product ever created, and until or unless someone comes out with a better one, I highly recommend you give it a try. I can't tell you how many times I get feedback in my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, about people who have truly benefited so much from Magnesium Breakthrough, and we have a special offer just for our listeners, you can get 10% off Magnesium Breakthrough, if you go to magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast and enter the code IFPODCAST10. That's M-A-G-B-R-E-A-K-T-H-R-O-U-G-H forward slash I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T with coupon code IFPODCAST10. Once again, that's magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast with the coupon code IFPODCAST10. By the way that coupon code is good for 10% off any order. Definitely take a look around the BiOptimizers website for other supplements that might benefit your health. I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.  

Shall we go on to our next listener feedback? 

Gin Stephens: Yes, this is from Megan. And the subject is, “Finally my own non-scale victory.” She says hi, “Gin and Melanie. I've been doing IF for a little over a year now, but still struggle to do this consistently. Mainly, I struggle with an all or nothing mentality, with a big dose of perfectionism thrown in.”  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's me.  

Gin Stephens: Well, I totally get it. When I was the gifted teacher and teaching the gifted endorsement classes to adult teachers who were getting their gifted endorsement to teach gifted kids, we talked about perfectionism. It really is true. In people-- Gifted kids are very likely to struggle with perfectionism. It really is like, “Well, I won't do anything if I can't do it right,” kind of a mindset. So being able to understand that was really important for teachers of the gifted. Anyway, yeah, that is a real thing. Kids will throw a project away rather than turn it in because they don't want to turn into something that isn't perfect. 

Melanie Avalon: I identify with that. 

Gin Stephens: I'm a good enougher. [laughs] I'm like, “I did my best. It's good enough. Here you go.” [laughs] Anyway, but I totally do understand perfectionistic kids because we saw a lot of them, over the years, I worked with lots of them. Back to Megan's feedback. She says, “I love listening to all of your podcasts and get so inspired by all of the success stories. But when I fail to have those same results, I get so discouraged. Am I the only person that struggles or for whom IF doesn't work? I've not been blessed with big weight loss results. And up until recently, I couldn't come up with a single non-scale victory and felt discouraged.” I want to jump right in there real quick. You know that saying, “Comparison is the thief of joy.” It really is true, because we think everyone else is having better results than we are. We can be like, just so quick to throw in the towel. So, I get it--, I totally get it. And I'm not blaming anyone who feels that way because it's human nature to look around and see what everybody else has and thinks, “Well, they're all doing it flawlessly. And here I am over here.” Anyway, I totally get it.  

She says, “I am at high risk for type 2 diabetes due to family history. And besides wanting to look great in pictures. This is the main reason I'm drawn to IF. It just makes logical sense, and is what keeps me devoted to this lifestyle. However, I will not say that I don't struggle with what is “wrong” with me when I hear success story after success story, but I'm flying high today.  

I recently got blood work for a much overdue physical. Thank you, pandemic. I'm so thrilled with my results that I just had to write to you. Right before the pandemic in December 2019, my fasting glucose was 97. But now my glucose result was 86. I dropped 11 points. I can't stop smiling. This is the first non-scale victory that I can claim. I am currently 218 pounds down from 235 a year ago, and still have a long way to go with weight loss. My window is 18:6, and I struggle with bingeing if I tried to increase that to 24 or one meal a day. Until I got that test result, I would have sworn that I was broken, and IF just works for everyone except me, but no more. Keep up the wonderful work and I will continue to be listening to all of your great success stories, and knowing that finally, I have a victory to credit to this lifestyle to. Best wishes, Megan." 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, I love hearing that from Megan. I really do feel if people stick it out long enough, the non-scale victories will eventually come to them for most people.  

Gin Stephens: I think so too, but also know that there's still tweaking to be had. It sounds like Megan's been tweaking window length, but there's so many things you can tweak besides just window length. Like what you're eating. 

Melanie Avalon: What you're eating. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: I know you were going to say that, weren't you? 

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. It's very exciting, because people can see changes with the fasting, but then there's this whole treasure trove of potential if they haven't touched at all the food choices. There's so much potential for amazing improvements. I think it's very empowering-  

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: -for people. Any other thoughts? 

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it. I'm just really excited to hear about that wonderful non-scale victory with you're-- seeing improvements in your fasted blood glucose. So, that's huge. Just keep looking for other things and tweak those foods if you haven't. Shrinking your window is not always the right answer. Maybe a six-hour window, maybe even an eight-hour window and tweaking what you're eating, just to see what feels right to you. 

Melanie Avalon: With the fasting glucose, it's incredible that it went down 11 points. There is a lot of variability though in fasting glucose. 

Gin Stephens: I thought that and didn't want to say it because I didn't want to be a Debbie Downer.  

Melanie Avalon: This can go either way though, because it doesn't have to automatically be a Debbie Downer. It's just very important to know-- I would encourage listeners to not evaluate the entirety of their progress based on just a single snapshot of blood glucose, because if Gin and I have learned one thing with our, well, blood glucose test, but also our experience with continuous glucose monitors where we see our blood sugar, you basically continually for 24/7 for two weeks at a time is when you wear them. You really realize just how much your blood sugar can fluctuate from minute to minute even. It's crazy. The reason this could be a Debbie Downer or it could be the opposite is, it's possible that the Debbie Downer side of things would be that there actually isn't-- there actually isn't much change in your overall blood sugar levels, like your average blood sugar levels. Or it could be that last time when your blood sugar was 97, that that was actually lower than what it normally is. That this 86 is actually higher than it normally is.  

There could be an actually even bigger difference, or it could be the opposite. It could be the opposite, where actually yours is a little bit higher than 86 now, and actually was a little bit lower than 97 before. It's really hard to know, you could get a continuous glucose monitor to look at things. We'll put links in the show notes to companies that provide access to those. You can check your A1C, which-- it'll give you a three-month picture of the level of glycation of your hemoglobin, which is affected by your average blood sugar levels. There are thoughts out there about its accuracy, but I think it does give a pretty good picture. You could also look at other metabolic health factors.  

Since you are at high risk for type 2 diabetes, I would really, really suggest looking at the five markers of metabolic syndrome. If you have three out of the five, you have metabolic syndrome, so one of them is high blood sugar. The others are low HDL, high triglycerides, the high blood sugar, abdominal obesity and high blood pressure. So, that would be something good to monitor your progress. Like how many of those do you have now and how many do you have as you go forward? I'm surprised we haven't actually really talked about that before because I don't think we've talked about it much on this show. But that really is understood to be the marker of metabolic health.  

Gin Stephens: I thought of something I wanted to say and then I forgot to say it. When I suggested making your window even a little longer, that might have sounded crazy. But the reason that I said that I didn't explain why, is because Megan says that she struggles with bingeing, if she tries to increase her fast to 20 hours a day, or if she tries to eat one meal a day, which I'm assuming she means in a really short window, and increased urge to binge over time, is a sign that you are over-restricting for your body. If you tend to over restrict, in a four-hour window, or one meal a day, maybe you just are someone who is like a lighter eater, like Melanie, you and I talked about, we're not light eaters, we eat a lot of food. So, that's why shorter window--, five-hour window is okay for me. I don't get that urge to binge with a five-hour window. But if you do, that may be a signal that your body perceives, what you're doing is over restriction. So, for you, if you're a lighter eater, maybe an eight-hour window, not like eating solid straight for eight hours. But maybe you need two meals within an eight-hour window, one on each end of it, for your body to feel happy, and not send you the urge to binge.  

That's why every time someone asks me-- I just was interviewed for a podcast two days ago, and the person asked me, “What is the best approach for intermittent fasting?” I'm like, “There isn't one. There is no best.” This is an example of that. An eight-hour window is not right for me. I can eat too much in eight hours, I do, if I eat for eight hours, if I have an eight-hour window. But it might be right for somebody else. Even if a lot of people struggle to lose weight with an eight-hour window, that doesn't mean that it isn't the perfect window for somebody. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm really glad that you elaborated on that.  

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I hope that made sense.  

Melanie Avalon: It did. 

Gin Stephens: Good. It just people might be like, “Why did she say increase your window? That sounds crazy, if someone's not losing weight.” But if you're doing something that feels overly restrictive for your body, that can actually keep you from losing weight, because your body is like, “I'm just going to stay right here.” You can even vary it from day to day, maybe one day, two meals and eight hours. The next day, you lose up and down kind of pattern. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And on top of that, too restrictive could be a problem. And then on top of that, if you do struggle with a bingeing pattern, it just exacerbates everything. So that could be a pattern that would really, really not be working for somebody. 

Gin Stephens: Right. “Tweak it till it's easy.” I've got a chapter called that in Fast. Feast. Repeat. And we are all very much a study of one. If you're feeling things like bingeing, that's a sign something's not working. If you're not losing any weight at all, over a long period of time, that's a sign that something is still going on in your body. Now, it might be something that you haven't got your finger on yet, like hormonal or something else. Maybe your body is pulling fat out of a fatty liver. There's so many things that could be going on. It doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong. It just means that you haven't discovered your weight loss sweet spot yet, or maybe your body's working on something more important.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.  

Gin Stephens: All right, you ready to go on to the next one.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes. We have a question from, I think it's Emely.  

Gin Stephens: I would say Emely. 

Melanie Avalon: That's a very pretty spelling of Emely. And the subject is, “BMI chart says I am overweight should I care?” And Emely says, “Hey, Melanie and Gin, I've been IFing and listening to your podcast since the start of 2018. My health is great, and it's such a joy to no longer stress about gaining weight. I'm a lifelong athlete with a decent amount of muscle. I wear a size eight mediums and feel confident, healthy and strong. My waist to hip ratio is 0.72, which is low health risk. I eat well, mostly plant based, lots of Daily Harvest.” That's what you love, Gin, right? 

Gin Stephens: I do love Daily Harvest. Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: Are they a sponsor on your other show? 

Gin Stephens: They are, which is so exciting, because nothing makes me happier than when I love a product, and then they become a sponsor because that's the order that it happened in. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: We can put a link in the show notes. Do you have a discount code for them? 

Gin Stephens: Yes, I do. If you go to ginstephens.com, on the Favorite Things tab, you can find it there. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, perfect. “Lots of Daily Harvests with the occasional vegetarian pizza. I workout two to three times a week, cardio, dance, battle ropes, HIIT, and Barre classes. 

Gin Stephens: I don't know what battle ropes is, do you? 

Melanie Avalon: Is that like jump roping where you battle? I don't know.  

Gin Stephens: I don't know, but it sounds really fun. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: It's what I was sort of picturing. It's like-- I don't know what it is, but there's these people holding scary-looking ropes and they're attached to the wall and they're moving them aggressively. 

Gin Stephens: Okay. [laughs] Now I'm imagining it. Thank you, Emely, for teaching us something new. That sounds really fun. Like, I might like to do battle ropes. I don't know. 

Melanie Avalon: We're going to become battle rope champions. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: I bet, you're going to really increase your arm strength. That's something that-- 

Melanie Avalon: I know. I want to do it. Okay. To-do list. 

Gin Stephens: I probably could not do it right now. I'd be like, “Oops, I'm losing this battle.”  

Melanie Avalon: You have different people focus on different parts of the body, for like, what is most aesthetically pleasing. I focus on arms. I am obsessed with arms. I think we talked about this before. 

Gin Stephens: I don't know, but I know what you mean. I like shoulders, yeah, I get it. 

Melanie Avalon: Maybe I should look into this. She says, “I don't count or track anything. And I would prefer to continue not tracking or counting. I'm 5’6”, and usually around 159 pounds. This puts my BMI at 25.7 technically overweight. Should I focus on losing five pounds in order to get my BMI at a healthy range? Or should I continue my maintenance plan, is BMI something to stress over? I'm worried that as an American, my idea of what “overweight” looks like eschewed. But according to the BMI chart, I am. Is this something I should focus on changing? If I'm content with how my body looks, feels, and works, should I try to change to get into that healthy range? Thanks so much, Emely.”  

Gin Stephens: I'm going to say, just ignore that BMI for yourself. [laughs] Here's why. We've probably all read articles about how Olympic athletes are classified sometimes as obese, based on their muscle mass. They have so much muscle, and they're lean, and they have a very low body fat percentage, but because the only thing BMI takes into account body mass index, is your relationship between what the scale says and your height. That is it--. That's it. If you are very low body fat, very high amount of muscle, you get on the scale and your relationship with gravity is that you have a lot of mass, more mass. So, your body mass index is higher. Thanks to all that muscle. It's not showing the true picture of your body and what your body composition is. So really, your body fat percentage is a much better indication versus BMI.  

BMI isn't like totally awful for everybody. It can be a good rough estimate for some, but if you are really, really muscular, it is not going to be very accurate for you. For you, though, your waist to hip ratio of 0.72 is a much better indication that you are lean. I would just focus on your waist to hip ratio and know that you are athletic and healthy and BMI is not accurate for you, because as soon as you see that Olympic athletes are obese and they're not because their body fat percentage is so low, you realize that it's very, very imperfect. There is a BMI calculator that, I just want to throw out there. It's not really as relevant in Emely's case, but have you ever gone to the Smart BMI Calculator, Melanie?-- smartbmicalculator.com. I think I may have talked about it before. 

Melanie Avalon: Is that where you add in measurements that go with it?  

Gin Stephens: It has to do with more like your age. and things like that. It's basically it's rethinking the BMI, smartbmicalculator.com 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, you don't put any measurements in? 

Gin Stephens: No, you just put your height and your weight and your age. It just gives you a more accurate calculation based on your age, and where you might fall within there. 

Melanie Avalon: Gotcha. Yeah, we can put a link to in the show notes. Gin pretty much said it. The important thing really there is what is that weight made of? So, is it fat or is it muscle. Even I was just mentioning before that the metabolic syndrome, it's not just obesity that is one of the factors. It's abdominal obesity. It's a certain type of fat, even that is correlated to the health issues. Ascertaining what your weight is made, of which I mean, we can't assume, but it sounds like from all of her activity levels, that it probably is muscle, and especially with her health factors, she could do something like a DEXA scan, which would more likely show your muscle composition. The only potential problem with that is that it can even be misleading if you are on a ketogenic diet. I was just reading about this last night, because it still measures based on water and things like that.  

Gin Stephens: Really? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, low carb diets can play around with that. The study I was reading last night was saying, the issues with the DEXA scan and what you need to do instead, which was--, I don't know if it was stuff that was available. They were doing it in the study. So, like in this study, for example, they talked about the potential issues with DEXA. In this study, they use DEXA as well as an MRI, that's not something that's really accessible. An MRI to assess visceral adipose tissue mass, and thigh skeletal muscle cross-sectional areas. They also looked at nitrogen balance and something called 3-methylhistidine, which measures, I think, the turnover of lean mass to look at protein metabolism in this study because I think DEXA is the thing that's most accessible to the lay people, but just a note that if you're on a low carb ketogenic diet, there might be a slight issue with that.  

I think there are formulations online that look at measurements to find out your body composition. So, doing those, I still would recommend the DEXA. Looking at your metabolic health and all of that should give you a much better picture of everything.  

Gin Stephens: Yep, I think so too. 

Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to our next question? 

Gin Stephens: Yes, this is from Ginny. The subject is “Boosting Ketones.” Ginny says, “What do you ladies think about using BHB or exogenous ketones to get an energy boost and promote faster ketosis? I've been using them about a month now and wondered if there's any real benefit, and when you recommend using them? Thanks. Your show was awesome.” Gosh, it's been a long time since we've had a question about ketones. Also, in the communities, like for a while, that's all everybody was asking. I mean, I can't think of the last time someone has asked about them. I thought they were like gone for good. I was hoping they were. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I got really excited because I had that exact response as you, Gin. I was like, “Oh, I haven't even really looked into this and forever.” 

Gin Stephens: I thought that everyone was like, “Alright, we're done with those. Let's move on.” But I think they're still there. 

Melanie Avalon: I went on a really, really deep rabbit hole research on this. And I went in completely open minded because I did have that same response as you, Gin, so I was like, “What is the latest research say? I don't know, maybe it's going to be super supportive and maybe I'll walk away being like I should take these.” I do not walk away thinking that. 

Gin Stephens: No, I've researched it before and always the answer is no. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I will tell you what I found and I only looked at really recent studies. 2020 or 2021, I wanted to look at three things, actually four things. So, physical performance, mental stress performance, weight loss, and then health-- like specific health issues.  

Gin Stephens: Did it have health benefits, is that what you're saying?  

Melanie Avalon: Therapeutically, if you had a specific disease, would it be beneficial? 

Gin Stephens: That's what I meant. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: What did she call them? Because are different types. She called it-- 

Gin Stephens: BHB. 

Melanie Avalon: BHB or exogenous ketones.  

Gin Stephens: Beta-hydroxybutyrate, is that what it is? Did I say it right out of my brain?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Basically, with the ketogenic diet or fasting, we can create ketones endogenously, so our body makes them, exogenously is when you're just taking preformed ketones. This is different than MCT oil that we talked about before-- or that we talked about a lot, MCT oil, easily becomes ketones, but it's not like a literal ketone. If that makes sense. 

Gin Stephens: It's not one yet, it can be made in the one. It's a fat. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. The two forms that people supplement with are ketone esters and then BHB salts. So, she was asking about the BHB salts. The ketone esters seem to be what creates a higher elevation and ketone levels in the body. So, I looked at different studies. The weight loss study I looked at use salts. The exercise performance when I looked at, oh, it also use salts. I'm not sure if I looked at any specifically with the esters. But regardless what I thought was really interesting, some quick takeaways, and then I'll go into the specifics. So, it seems that there are some factors at play when you take exogenous ketones. In the beginnings--, in the weight loss study that I looked at, it was a six-week study. In the beginning, the people that took the exogenous ketones, and the setup of that study, by the way was they had people, it was a calorie-restricted diet in obese patients. They had people doing a ketogenic diet without exogenous ketones, a ketogenic diet with exogenous ketones and then a low-fat diet. And then all the participants ate the same amount of calories. 

Gin Stephens: The low-fat people, were there two groups for them as well, some with ketones and some not, or they none of them got ketones? 

Melanie Avalon: None of them got ketones. I wanted them to do that.  

Gin Stephens: I know. It seems just a little incomplete.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But they were actually using the low-fat diet as like a control which is interesting.  

Gin Stephens: That's weird--, that's so weird--. So weird.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. I was like, “Oh, I thought that'd be really cool setup to have.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Now I'll have to after this, I took so many notes, I realized I think I want to write a blog post on this because I spent a few hours researching this and I was like, there's so much so I'm just going to talk about the takeaways that I found. But I might do an even deeper dive into it because it was really, really interesting. But so in that study, for example, what they were trying to look at was, does taking exogenous ketones help preserve muscle mass. Something they started out with, by the way was they hypothesize that, because apparently, some studies show a loss of muscle on ketogenic diets, but they hypothesize that because those ketogenic diets don't have enough protein and/or don't have enough sodium electrolytes. 

Gin Stephens: Or maybe they just for a short duration, and the people weren't fat adapted yet. I think that could also be a factor.  

Melanie Avalon: I agree. In this study, they thought they would find that adding the exogenous ketones would help preserve muscle mass. What they found--, they did not find that. There was a non-significant trend towards better muscle mass retention in the ketogenic diet with the exogenous ketones, but it wasn't significant. So, basically, it was like a tiny little bit of a difference, but not significant. And then on top of that, and this is why I was saying at the beginning about the two weeks. So, interestingly, in the initial two weeks having the exogenous ketones did for the ketone group, it raised their body ketones higher, but by the end of the six weeks, there wasn't any difference between the ketogenic diet with the ketones and the ketogenic diet without the ketones. 

Gin Stephens: So, that makes me think that the reason it was higher early on, is because obviously they're taking ketones right. They're measuring the ketones that they're taking in, but the fact that they didn't stay higher means that the people that were on the ketogenic diet without the exogenous ketones, made their own ketones from stored body fat, whereas the people who were taking the ketones, it just stayed constant from the ones they were taking, rather than making their own. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, my thoughts were that something along those lines. And I need to look at the charts and see what happened with the actual ketone levels, but basically, their thoughts, which was my thoughts, which is a little bit different than yours, but I was like-- it's funny. My initial thought is what their thought was, but I had what you just said in the background, as the other idea, but I wasn't really thinking about it. They were saying that basically, there's just a very intense regulation of the ketone levels in the body. And so regardless of the factors that are contributing to it, in the end, your body is going to maintain a certain level. 

Gin Stephens: Think about it, though. That means that you're not making them. If you're trying to maintain within this small range, if you're continually taking them in, you don't need to make them. And the magic isn't in having the ketones, it's in making them from our stored body fat. We want to do that.  

Melanie Avalon: So, that's actually the question like where's the magic because the reason other people researchers are really interested in exogenous ketones for therapeutic benefits is-- Oh, this is perfect because I have a perfect quote about this. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, and by the way, I wasn't talking about therapeutic benefits like Alzheimer's. Yeah, I was talking about for fat loss.  

Melanie Avalon: That's why I was going to say. I wanted to clarify the magic. When our context of what we were just talking about, the magic of them would be from burning body fat. This is why I needed to break it down into different categories. There are people looking at exogenous ketones for therapeutic health effects, and that's where the question comes in of, is there an extra benefit there, but there's this amazing quote. So, this is from a study, appropriately enough called exogenous ketones as therapeutic signaling molecules and high stress occupations, implications for mitigating oxidative stress, and mitochondrial dysfunction, and future research. It's a 2020 study.  

Okay, I feel the vibe, I'm going to get really casual in my words, but the vibe of that article or study was basically I feel it really encapsulated the way, I think, exogenous ketones are because it was a lot of theory. It was basically, like, we see all these benefits of the ketogenic state. So, there should be-- there's this potential that taking them exogenously would have all these health benefits. But then they just don't have any studies. They had like one study, and they were saying, like, in the future, we would like to see more studies, but there's not a lot of research on it. And then they even said, and this is what we were just talking about. They said, “Current speculation suggests that it would be incorrect to assume that exogenous ketones mimic the robust mitochondrial environment induced from an adhering to a ketogenic diet.” 

Gin Stephens: Boom. [laughs] Or, ketogenic lifestyle with fasting.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so basically, all the benefits you're getting from this mitochondrial state of a ketogenic diet is not the same thing as taking-- Yeah. And everything that happens from that is not the same thing as taking them exogenously. But then they do say, however, data are limited and human trials, specifically as it relates to the effects of ketone bodies on inflammation and oxidative stress markers. They basically say there's not really research on it. 

Gin Stephens: By the way, can I clarify, when I said that I know I didn't say very clearly? When I say a ketogenic fasting lifestyle, that doesn't mean that you're necessarily eating keto and doing fasting, because fasting itself is ketogenic. I just wanted to clarify that. Anybody who's fasting long enough, is going to get into ketosis, even if you do not eat keto style in your eating window.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. To clarify more that quote about the mitochondrial state, basically, when you enter the ketogenic state, it's not even just that your body is creating these ketones. And this is me, I'm not a scientist or anything, but just from what I've read, I don't think it's so much that that there's this extra magic to an endogenously created ketone versus an exogenously created ketone. It's just that the entire context that leads up to an endogenously created ketones, like making the ketones yourself, the whole system in your body is working differently.  

So, you're changing-- It's like if you had a factory that created ketones. In one situation, you have changed the entire workings of the factory to create those ketones all by itself, compared to a factory that actually isn't that good at creating ketones, and you just come in and put ketones on the belt, like, it's not actually making them. You're not getting all of the benefits to how that factory is working. There's so many other benefits from what leads to the creation of those ketones. 

Gin Stephens: Can I share my analogy that I haven't said in a long, long time because we haven't had a question about it? To me, the very best way of thinking about it is taking exogenous ketones is like spraying yourself with sweat and thinking you worked out, because working out is where the benefits are, not the fact that you're sweating. I mean sweat--.  The actual act of sweating is a detoxification thing. The working out that caused you to sweat is good for your body. But the sweat itself is not the goal. And the same can be said with the ketones. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and like an extension of that analogy was because I think-- I don't know, but there might be a place for exogenous ketones, but I think it would be very specific health conditions. 

Gin Stephens: For example, epilepsy.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Where due to that health condition, it's like with a sweat analogy, maybe there's a person who can't really produce sweat or can't produce enough sweat and they're in the desert and it's like this-- 

Gin Stephens: And you're really hot and If I spray you with sweat, you'll have a bit of it. [laughs] But it's not the same as if you worked up a sweat yourself.  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.  

Gin Stephens: Can I say one thing about Ginny's question? She said that she's using them to get an energy boost. Well, it's because it's energy, you're taking in energy. If you ate a cookie, you'd have an energy boost too, but it's not what you want.  

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you brought that up, like to that point, the weight loss study for the group that took the ketones, I think they said it added around, like 120 calories. So, they had to adjust for that, for the other-- they didn’t just add it, they had to reduce the calories of-- 

Gin Stephens: Of the food that they ate.  

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.  

Gin Stephens: Bummer. They also had to eat less because they're taking in energy.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: That should tell you something. [laughs] Ginny, we have good news and bad news. The bad news is-- 

Melanie Avalon: And I'm not even done.  

Gin Stephens: You don't need the ketones. But the good news is, you don't have to pay for them anymore. You can get them for free. That's the good news. The good news is, we are saving you money. Right now, stop buying ketones, make your own ketones. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. 

Gin Stephens: I thought you were done. I'm sorry. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: No. Just one more thing, I want to talk about the exercise performance, which relates to what you just talked about. So, this is perfect. One last thing about the weight loss study. The title of the study was the “Effects of a six-week controlled hypocaloric ketogenic diet, with and without exogenous ketone salts on body composition responses.” But something I did want to pop in there, just because it dismantles something we talked about occasionally on the show, and that's with the whole ketogenic diet. There's this idea that you have to be in ketosis to lose weight, which is not true. So, the low-fat diet in this study, they all lost around the same amount of weight, and the low-fat diet never went into ketosis. 

Gin Stephens: Although you could go into ketosis on a low-fat diet. 

Melanie Avalon: You could, yeah. you could. I'd have to look at it again. They definitely didn't go to the level of other two of the ketogenic diet.  

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And this is my personal favorite update. So for those of us who like to use Joovv devices to wind down at night, they now have an ambient mode that creates a calming lower intensity of light at night. Guys, I am so excited about this. Using this light at night is way healthier than bright blue light from all of our screens, and much more in line with your circadian rhythm. I was using my current Joovv devices at night anyway to light my whole apartment, so this new ambient mode is really going to be a game-changer for me. Of course, you still get the world-class customer service from your helpful, friendly Joovv team. So, if you're looking for a new Joovv device for your home, we have some very exciting news. You can go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST. You'll get an exclusive discount on Joovv’s newest devices. Yes, discount, I said it. That's J-O-O-V-V dotcom, forward slash, I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. Exclusions apply. And this is for a limited time only. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show. 

Melanie Avalon: The last thing I was going to talk about was exercise performance, which relates to Ginny's question. This is a study from 2020 called “Effects of an exogenous ketone supplement on five kilometer running performance.” This study looked at recreational runners and their endurance running and the effects of taking exogenous ketones. And these people were not on a low-carb or ketogenic diet. They were eating a normal diet. They took either exogenous ketones before a five-kilometer run, or they took a placebo drink that tasted the same, but didn't have any ketones in it. And they wanted to see if it affected their performance, if it affected their perceived exertion, if it affected their energy levels. What I liked about the study was they also summarized all the other research to date. So, this was 2020, and they talked about all the other studies to date that also looked at this general concept. And in their summary, they said that to date, so this was up until 2020. One trial showed exercise improvements. Three trials showed neutral effects. And two trials showed negative effects with exogenous ketone supplementation. So, that is not looking good for exogenous ketone supplementation and performance. 

In this study, they found basically no difference between using the ketones or not using the ketones. Eight people who took the ketones had a non-significant faster time, but it wasn't significant. So, there wasn't that much of a difference, and two of them had a slower time. And then the perceived exertions, like how they felt was-- there was no difference in really anything. So, it really, really looks like exogenous ketones. 

Gin Stephens: If they were really magical and amazing, they would not have petered out like they have. People would just be taking more and more and more and having amazing results. And they wouldn't be speaking for themselves, kind of like fasting is doing. How fasting is continuing to grow and grow and grow. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. They're complete opposite.  

Gin Stephens: Right. I haven't heard-- But neither of us have heard of any questions about these for a long time because pum, pum, pum, it was just another thing they could sell you.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I already said it, but I'm restating, their summary of all of the studies to date that looked at basically athletic performance and exogenous ketones. Up until 2020, there was six of them, only one showed improvement, three showed neutral, and two showed negative effects. That is not a good rate. The very last thing, I don't know which study it was in, but I thought this was really interesting. One of the studies found that it was-- I don't even remember what it was testing. But I found that how people responded to exogenous ketones depended on their metabolic health. If people who had issues with their pancreas and their blood sugar regulation, all of that, did not have the same beneficial effects when they took the exogenous ketones, which to me, and this is just my thoughts on it. But to me, it says it's that whole energy toxicity thing. If your body's not handling energy well and you have too much energy, the last thing I think you want to do is be putting in pure energy. Not that it's the same thing as sugar. 

Gin Stephens: I mean, it's energy--. Its energy for the body.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. 

Gin Stephens: I just have one more final thought that I wanted to say. The main people who are super big fans of exogenous ketones are the people who want to sell them to you. So, always think about that. If the person who like is extolling the benefits, also wants to sell them to you, then they've got a reason to tell you they're awesome. You don't hear people who are not trying to sell them to you talk about how great they are. That’s all I'm saying. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I think it was-- I don't want to misquote, but I have to go back and look, but it was definitely something about the metabolic health. I wrote a note that said “high blood sugar” that they had less of a beneficial response to exogenous ketones, but it was definitely the idea that if you're in a state of high energy, you want to make your own ketones, you don't want to be taking them. 

Gin Stephens: I'm so glad that you did that deep dive on the most recent information because it's been a long time since we talked about it, maybe like 2019 or something. 

Melanie Avalon: I was like, “Oh, this is going to be fun.” 

Gin Stephens: But it was even out yet.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. 

Gin Stephens: I'm so glad you didn't find the other and prove that they're amazing. [laughs] But they're not, so. 

Melanie Avalon: If I did, I went in completely open minded. 

Gin Stephens: You would have told the truth--. You would have told the truth, I know you would have. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, honestly, if it said that they're great, I probably have been like, “Hmm, maybe I will make my own ketones.”  

Gin Stephens: There you go, and you would start taking them.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, it was almost shocking how much there's just not support for this. The only caveat, and to be honest, I didn't even go down this rabbit hole because there's just too much there. And the studies are so like niche. So, it might be for very specific health conditions, there might be a place for it. I encourage listeners, if they're interested in ketones, and they have a very specific health condition, epilepsy, even I don't know, I didn't research for the cancer connection, I probably will, because I want to do a blog post on this. But some cancers, I don't know, but I would encourage you to go on Google Scholar and look up your health condition and look up exogenous ketones and see if there's research on it, because there might be a benefit there.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, what really shaped my early thinking about it was hearing a podcast, and I don't listen to very many podcasts, ever. But it was Dr. Mark Mattson from Johns Hopkins and he's neurological expert brain stuff. I could not pull out who he was talking to, or find the source. But I remember, when I was still teaching. So, it was probably 2017 to 2018 because I remember listening to it on the way to school. I was like, at bus duty, trying to secretly keep listening to it. While no one could tell that I was listening to this, while also doing bus duty, [laughs] because I was so interested in it, because people were asking all the time, and I really wanted to learn the truth before I just started giving out advice, just like you just did. And he was like, very skeptical of taking in ketones in that way, just because that's not something we ever naturally do. They do not exist in nature in a way that you can consume them. He's like metabolically, we don't even really know what they're in there doing because that's not something you can go out and have some. He said he could imagine some biological pathways that made them actually harmful in the body, not just not helpful, but harmful. 

Melanie Avalon: I've even thought that a little bit about the MCTs, and this is the next step from that.  

Gin Stephens: It's not something you're naturally ever going to take in, in your daily life. It's like what are you going to do? I mean, drain someone's blood and drink them? I mean, no, don't do that. [laughs] I don't know how you would accidentally take them in. But there's no source of them around you naturally occurring, is my point. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm glad we had that conversation.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, me too. 

Melanie Avalon: It was fun. 

Gin Stephens: I'm glad you did that deep recent dive and came to the same conclusion that we came to a long time ago. 

Melanie Avalon: It's almost funny reading, like I said, the one that was looking at using it for stress. I don't know what's like driving it because they clearly really have a lot of hope for the therapeutic potential, but they're just not finding that in studies. So, I don't know.  

Gin Stephens: Well, you have a theoretical-- this could be so great, because and then you want to find support for that., and then it's disappointing not to. 

Melanie Avalon: So, yes.  

Gin Stephens: So, Ginny, save your money, woo.  

Melanie Avalon: I know, yay. 

Gin Stephens: Everyone save your money. And if someone wants to sell you something that say for fasting, tell them no on that too. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. All right. So, this has been absolutely wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for this show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode236. And they will have a full transcript and they will also have links to all of the things, all of those studies we talked about. Everything. All right, anything from you, Gin, before we go? 

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it. I'm going to go out and walk on the beach some more. And my biggest question for the rest of the day is, do I eat the food I have here in the fridge or do I go out to eat? I haven't decided. There's a place that has like a really good steak. And for some reason I'm craving a steak. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh. I think that's very telling. There's probably a nutrient in the steak that you-- 

Gin Stephens: But then I'm like a little feeling lazy. I don't want to get in my car and drive down there. I need a steak but you're right. You just answered my question. I'm glad I asked it. [laughs] I'm going to go eat a steak and a baked potato. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I would eat the steak. 

Gin Stephens: I know. That's where my plate went different from yours. [laughs] I'm going to drink a nonalcoholic beer and look at the water and eat a steak and have a baked potato. Now I'm really excited.  

Melanie Avalon: I would drink wine. Yeah, well, see, I'm driving. So, I won't.  

Gin Stephens: Well, have a fun time.  

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. Oh, the next episode for listeners, teaser, is special. 

Gin Stephens: And I'm not going to be on it, which is weird, because I'm going to be out of town. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Should we say who? Actually, listeners probably know, I think I mentioned it. Yeah, we're going to have Robb Wolf. 

Gin Stephens: This has only happened one other time before when I was out of town and we had a special guest coming on, and I couldn't be there for it. But this is another example of that. And so, yeah, Robb Wolf. 

Melanie Avalon: Melanie fan girl person, I'm such a fan. So, we're going to do a deep dive into electrolytes and anything else that you guys want to ask Robb. 

Gin Stephens: Love it. And I'll be in Arizona, and I'm so excited. 

Melanie Avalon: I know, I'm excited too. I will talk to you week after next. 

Gin Stephens: I know, two weeks, and I'll tell you about my trip to Arizona.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm excited.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Alrighty. Well, I will talk to you then. Safe travels. 

Gin Stephens: Thank you.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Gin Stephens: Bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Oct 17

Episode 235: Inspiring Family, Mystery Ingredients, Cold Brew Calories, Stevia, HCG Diet, Finding The Right Window, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 235 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Gat A FREE Holiday turkey in your first box!

FEALS: Feals makes CBD oil which satisfies ALL of Melanie's stringent criteria: it's premium, full spectrum, organic, tested, pure CBD in MCT oil! It's delivered directly to your doorstep. CBD supports the body's natural cannabinoid system, and can address an array of issues, from sleep to stress to chronic pain, and more! Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

JOOVV: Like Intermittent Fasting, Red Light Therapy Can Benefit The Body On So Many Levels! It Literally Works On The Mitochondrial Level To Help Your Cells Generate More Energy! Red Light Can Help You Burn Fat (Including Targeted Fat Burning And Stubborn Fat!), Contour Your Body, Reduce Fine Lines And Wrinkles, Produce Collagen For Epic Skin, Support Muscle Recovery, Reduce Joint Pain And Inflammation, Combat Fatigue, Help You Sleep Better, Improve Mood, And So Much More!! These Devices Are Literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Gat A FREE Holiday Turkey In Your First Box!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Introducing: The Delay, Don't Deny Community

Stay Up To Date With All The News And Pre-Order Info About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At Melanieavalon.Com/Serrapeptase!

FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Jaime - DD Cold Brew Black 10 Calories Break Fast?

Listener Feedback: Ryan - Spreading The Love And Lifestyle 

Listener Q&A: Angela - Size Of Window To Lose Weight

Listener Q&A: Belinda - Continuous Glucose Monitoring And Stevia

The Truth About Stevia, GERD and Hormone Imbalances, & the Fiber Debate

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A: Sheri - Feedback And Quick Question

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 235 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I’m here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don’t Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.commelanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get a 10- to 16-pound, humanely raised, free-range Turkey for free. Yes, for free. We are so honored to be supported by a company called ButcherBox. It is so, so important to us to buy high-quality meat that you can trust. It tastes better, it's more ethical, it's more sustainable, it's truly what benefits not only ourselves, but the planet. Friends. I've been doing a lot of research on transparency in the food industry and it is shocking what goes down. What you see on the shelves at the grocery store can be very misleading with practices that are not benefiting ourselves or the planet. So, if you're tired of searching for 100% grass-fed beef, free-range organic chicken, wild-caught seafood, and more, you've got to try ButcherBox. Their entire sourcing is actually done holistically. They keep the farmer, the planet, the animal, and your family all in mind to deliver products directly to you, cutting out the middleman of a grocery store to save you money, and get you quality meat and seafood that you can trust. 

Plus, their products taste amazing. Oh, my goodness, friends, I am a steak girl. ButcherBox filet is one of the best filets I have ever tasted in my entire life. I recently gave my family some of their grass-fed, grass-finished beef, and my mom told me it was the best ground beef she had ever tasted. My brother also adores their bacon. Yep, if you want pastured heritage-breed bacon that is sugar and nitrate free, you can get that at ButcherBox. I'm also a scallop girl, and their wild-caught scallops are delicious, and I can finally feel good about the transparency with that because friends, the seafood industry is very, very sketchy. A 2013 Oceana study found that one-third of seafood in grocery stores and restaurants was mislabeled. Farmed salmon is often labeled as wild salmon, and other fish species are just complete lies. It's honestly very shocking. 

Every month, ButcherBox members can get a curated selection of high-quality meat shipped straight to their home. Those boxes contain between 8 to 14 pounds of meat depending on your box type and what you want. They're packed fresh and shipped frozen with free shipping for the continental US. And friends, with the holidays upon us, how hard is it to find humanely raised, free-range turkeys without additives. Just go look at those turkeys at the grocery store and look at their ingredient list. It shouldn't be just turkey, it's not usually just turkey. They often plump up those turkeys at the grocery store to make them weigh more and those solutions are full of additives that you do not want in your body. But we've got you covered. Right now, ButcherBox is offering new members a 10- to 16-pound turkey for free in their first box. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to sign up. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to receive a free turkey in your first box. I'll put all this information in the show notes.  

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds including endocrine disrupters which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare and makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body.  

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter 

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show. 

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 235 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: I am so busy. 

Melanie Avalon: Why are you so busy? I know why, but tell me. 

Gin Stephens: I need to talk to my community first of all but you know we launched the Delay, Don’t, Deny Social Network in March, and it was my dream to have a community that was off of Facebook and amazing. When choosing a home for our community, we looked at everything that was out there that offered this type of platform and we chose a company that had high-end clients, a well-known university that everyone would know, their alumni association uses them and just amazing clients like that and they've been around for over 10 years. So, wouldn't you feel fabulous about choosing a company that's been around for over 10 years with top name clients?  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I would. 

Gin Stephens: Well, [laughs] I actually have learned a lot over this process, and if you're choosing a technology company, you're better off choosing somebody who just started within recent times. That's all I'm going to say about that. That's a lie. I'm going to say more about that. But technology changes so quickly that we ended up stuck on a platform that had old infrastructure and I'm not a computer programmer. So, my lingo might be off, but I'm sure, Cal could explain it. But when he was working on his Window app and he was selling it, he was going through it and he's like, “Oh, man, this stuff I put in here back in I guess 2016, I'm having to redo and fix a lot of things because it's so clunky.”  

Well, 10 years of technology layered on top of technology, things were always breaking and glitching. The longer we used it, the worse it got. They would roll out an improvement and something else would break. I literally was losing sleep over it. We paid tens of thousands of dollars for this platform. I hate to say that out loud. It just was not working for the community. So, we're pivoting to a new platform and we're rolling over members now, moving people over, migrating them. So, people who are listening, it was really easy for the lifetime members and the monthly members. They were easier to move over because in lifetime, we just move them. Monthly members, very easy transition because they have less than a month left. But for the annual members, it's been a little trickier. So, we're waiting for a coupon code that we're getting from the platform and then we'll be moving everybody over. But those that have already made the transition, it's so much better. We have gifts, we can sort the feed, we can search. Everything we wanted to do that we couldn't do, our notifications work, it just all works.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's good.  

Gin Stephens: The saddest part is the community members that have been disappointed. They've been disappointed in me, offering a product that was not amazing like we wanted it to be, and I recognize, and I appreciate the disappointment and I own it. We made a bad choice. Anyway, I'm hoping people will forgive [laughs] the flaws that we rolled out the first time and know that we as soon as we realized that it was buggy, I started looking at other platforms. Even though we have a year contract with the other platform, we still have five and a half months left on that contract, and we're moving already. That tells you how important it was to me to make the transition. So, we've actually closed the old one to new members, and right now, nobody new can join.  

But by the time this episode comes out on October 18th, the new community will be completely open for new members. So, we're going to do the linking through ginstephens.com/community, because that'll be really easy for people to remember. ginstephens.com/community, that'll direct you to the new platform, and we're really hoping a lifetime [laughs] happiness at the new place. It's already been great. So, and again, I want to apologize to people who were less than blown away by the original experience. We've made some great connections there, but the technology was so frustrating. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's ironic, because often when people start new businesses or new things, that birthing period where there might be difficulties. It's ironic that you had the difficulties with such a well-established platform, and that it ended up being something newer that worked well. But I guess that makes sense with technology. It's like going with the younger people [giggles] who know more. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I told this analogy to one of my friends. I was like, “It's like the platform that we were using was invented by your granddad, who went to Harvard, [laughs] and the one we flipped over to was made by my son, Cal, who went to Georgia Tech and just graduated in 2019." It's just a little more hip with what people want, and the way features need to work. It's night and day. I'm still going to be providing support on the old DDD social network until the last member is there and we turn the lights off. So, I’m on both places right now. I don't want people to suffer one minute without the support that they want. But it's night and day, the two platforms, and we learned a lot, like I said, so. Once you make a mistake, you learn what not to do next time. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm very happy for you and we will put a link in the show notes. So, this link is ginstephens.com/community. 

Gin Stephens: That's it and it'll direct people to the new place and it's already hopping over there, and people are so happy. We're using GIFs left and right. I don't know. Do you like GIFs? Are you a GIFer? 

Melanie Avalon: I like texting them.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's just sometimes there's nothing better than a good GIF. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. [laughs] They're nice ways to end conversations. When you're texting back and forth and you need that final thing that encapsulates the conversation.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, for listeners, the show notes for this show will be at ifpodcast.com/episode235 and we'll put links there to Gin's community.  

Gin Stephens: Awesome, thank you. What's up with you?  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I am feeling the need to give the final Part 3 update to the Whole Foods guy saga. So, I think only the first episode is aired, where I told the story about how I went in and tried to talk to him and all the things. I don't think Part 2 has aired yet. Well, when this airs, Part 2 will have aired where I went up to him and asked him if he had a girlfriend. It's so funny that I posted a picture on my Instagram, because me and my sister and dad went to Hamilton, and it was me in this gorgeous dress. I was like, “Where am I going?” 20 people were like, "Whole Foods." [laughs] 

So, Part 3, I was mortified about having gone up to him and asking him with no context in the parking lot if he had a girlfriend, which he did. I hadn't seen him again and every time I would go to Whole Foods since then, I would nervously sit in the parking lot and be like, “Oh, please, please don't let him be there,” because I didn't want to run into him again. Last week, it was a Friday and I know he works on Fridays. I went in and I was like, “Please don't be there, please don't be there.” I thought he wasn't, and I thought I was good, and then I was walking to the register, and he was in between me and the register, and I was like, “Oh, crap.” [laughs]  

So, I turned around and I went to the wine section and I hid. I was like, “Maybe, I'll just camp out here. Maybe, he'll be gone.” I went around. I went the long way to circumvent and get to the self-checkout without going by him. I thought I was good, made to the self-checkout, and then he came up beside me at the self-checkout, and he goes, “Hi.” [laughs] I was like, “Oh, no.” 

Gin Stephens: See, you've got to just be confident and be like, “Hey, what's up?” 

Melanie Avalon: I know. So, I was like, “Hi,” and then I was like, “I'm so sorry. I'm so embarrassed.” He was like, “No, no, don't be,” and he was checking out beside me. I guess he was going on break. He was like, “How was your weekend?” I was like, “It was good. I saw Hamilton.” Then we just had some small talk and he was super nice. Then, at the end, he was like, “Well, it was nice talking to you again, bye,” and then he left. So, it's all good now. I can like walk in and not feel super awkward. 

Gin Stephens: Well, and also you should just be confident at all times, because honestly, he was so flattered by it, whether he has a girlfriend or not. Unless he's married, and even if he is, people are not married forever. Do not try to date someone who's married. That's not what I meant. [laughs] But I mean, even marriage is not always forever but dating someone is definitely not forever, yet. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, oh, wait. I forgot that is the first thing I said, because I was just in the moment. He was like, “Hi,” and I was like, “Hi, I'm so embarrassed.” He was like, “Don't be.” I was like, “Well, just let me know if anything changes,” [giggles] and that answers my question. I wasn't sure if this was a Cinderella situation, where he doesn't recognize me without makeup on but I was--  

Gin Stephens: But he does.  

Melanie Avalon: He does. He knows I'm the same person. 

Gin Stephens: And he knows you're interested. Again, if something ever goes wrong with the girlfriend, then you know. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's so funny though. I've been getting so many messages from people and they're like, “How do you have time for a relationship?” I'm like, Wait, hold the phone. I'm not saying I want a relationship. I just wanted to go on a date. That's all. Just one date." [laughs]   

Gin Stephens: Hey, relationships can actually save you time, because Chad is going to the post office for me today.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay.  

Gin Stephens: Of course, [laughs] We've been together for 31 years. So, ladies, if you run into him at Whole Foods, please do not try to go on a date with him [laughs] and we don't have a Whole Foods. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: So, that's my life. Yesterday, I saw the first draft of the label for my serrapeptase supplement. Oh, my goodness, I'm so excited. I had a call with the supplement company, and then their design team. I created the-- because it's going to be called Avalon X like Avalon X. So, I sent them over what I wanted Avalon X to look like, which is basically my signature, and then the X is a DNA.  

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's cool.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it looks really cool. Then I told them the color scheme, but I wanted the rest of the bottle to look like. They had seven different versions, and oh, my goodness, I'm obsessed. The first one I saw, it's everything I could want. It's perfect. Well, it's not perfect work, tweaking it. It's really exciting. It's exciting. 

Gin Stephens: Really, when it just clicks with you, that's how I feel about the cover for Clean(ish). I did a lot of intense back and forth with them and it looks the way it looks now because of my input so far across from how it started. But now I love it so much. When you know that it's right, it's right. I can't make any suggestions like, “What if you move these words down here? I'm not a graphic designer, but why am I the one noticing this?" Anyway. 

Melanie Avalon: We're trying to lock down the final formulation. But I mentioned this last week, but it's shocking. It's shocking, the supplements because basically, I thought there was quite a few serrapeptase is without other ingredients in them and there aren't. So, we found two. They make it seem like there aren't other ingredients, but we're pretty sure they're lying. So, we're going to lab test them and figure out if they actually do contain other ingredients and we're pretty sure they do. I'm just learning so much. So, friends, I'm scared to take any supplements now, honestly. 

Gin Stephens: You've heard me say that before, right?  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: Unless it's Wade Lightheart. I think we know. Unless you know the person making it, right?  

Melanie Avalon: BiOptimizers.  

Gin Stephens: Right. But it's just unless you literally know, they could be totally lying. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, what they do with the serrapeptase is, they say enteric-coated serrapeptase. The ingredients will be enteric-coated serrapeptase. They'll be like pure serrapeptase, enteric-coated and in capsule. That enteric coating, they don't say what's in that and it's usually a laundry list of ingredients and it can include plastics and synthetic compounds, and that's how they tweak things. Then also, we've been reading a lot of documents by the FDA about supplements and basically, they have this list where you can use ingredient A and you can call it ingredient B, C, D, or E. For example, if it's a form of a palmitate and it is calcium palmitate or something, you can call it just straight up calcium when it's not. It's disconcerting. 

Gin Stephens: That's like when they hide things using the name like natural flavors or something. That could literally be anything. There's one big name brand of bottled cold brew coffee, and the ingredients are coffee, natural flavors. Well, we do not recommend that during the clean fast because of the natural flavors, just like you said, they could hide things under that name. They might have stevia in there and are calling it natural flavors, because they're allowed to hide things under the name natural flavors. We don't even know what it is. We know a lot of people have had problems with that. They're like, “I tried that one and it was delicious, then I was starving.” So, we were like, “We don't know what that is, it's a mystery ingredient.” It could be anything. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. Even with the supplements, they legally don't even have to disclose-- If it's a minute amount, they don't even have to tell you. So, I'm becoming so passionate about this, and my thing is going to be full transparency about just everything.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm a fan of that.  

Melanie Avalon: So, listeners, if you'd like to get more information, we can get on my email list for it. It's at melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase, S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. Definitely get on that email list, because I'm going to be doing a preorder special. So, the price basically, probably won't ever be that low again. We already have way, way, way, way, way, way, way more people on the email list than I'm doing bottles for that first preorder. So, get on that list so that you can be one of the first people to order before it sells out when I release information about it.  

Gin Stephens: Very cool. I know that's exciting. Are you going to do more supplements down the road? 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I want to see obviously how this goes. I anticipate that people are going to love it and it's going to do really well, but I obviously need to make sure that people like it and it's resonating. But if it does, basically every supplement I'm currently taking, I want to make my own version of it.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's smart to see because best-laid plans. I could talk about that all day again with the Delay, Don't Deny Social Network. It didn't turn out the way we thought it would, and said then we're having to pivot. So, I'm wishing you a smoother rollout and no pivoting. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. It's really nice because I was contemplating doing it all on my own, and I have a few really, really good friends in the supplement industry who were encouraging me to do that, but I decided to partner with an existing company and I feel so good about that, because I would not have been able to do all of this stuff like lab testing other companies. The guy I'm working with, his name is Scott at MD Logic, but we're just an amazing team. We just are on the same wavelength about everything and I've been so picky. He keeps bringing me with options, and I'm like, “Oh, but we can't do that, because of X, Y, Z,” and he gets it and he's fighting for me with the formulators and going to bat. So, it's been great.  

Gin Stephens: Hmm, does he ever go to Whole Foods? 

Melanie Avalon: He's married. [laughs] Happily married.  

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Melanie Avalon: So, we have a question from Jamie. The subject is "DD Cold Brew black, 10 calories break the fast?" Jamie says, "Hi. I have been googling trying to find a straight answer for this. But there seems to be disagreement as to whether or not 10 calories from the DD Cold Brew medium black will break or otherwise weaken a fast weekend. I feel like we haven't heard that phrase before. I like that. It appears that there may be protein present, which I did not expect when trying to see where the 10 calories come from. There are three carbs I believe as well. I'm fasting for weight loss, but I also need my caffeine in the morning as I'm on the road often. It helps to know for sure whether or not this is a good option for daily consumption. Thank you so much for any help you can provide." 

Gin Stephens: Here's the rule of thumb for coffee. So, as long as the only ingredients are coffee and water, you should be fine. It's when they start adding the mystery ingredients like natural flavors or there's one that has something in there called coffee extract, I don't know what that is. What is coffee extract? I don't need any extract of coffee in my coffee. I would just like some coffee. Here's my recommendation. Make your own cold brew if you're not sure, because then you know what's in it. It is not hard to make cold brew, and then take it with you, and it's better for the planet because you're not carrying around bottles of stuff that somebody else made. You can just use your little reasonable travel container and you're going to get it for pennies compared to what you would spend to buy it. That's what I would do. I would just make my own cold brew, super easy, take it with you on the road, have your caffeine, no mystery ingredients, boom. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, well, first of all, Gin, I just realized DD is Dunkin' Donuts. Just goes to show how much I go to Dunkin' Donuts. I like what you said a lot. I was just looking at the Dunkin' Donuts coffee that you can buy online, so the actual like coffee-coffee, and they just list coffee as the ingredients. But if you're finding it somewhere, I don't know, if she's actually at the store and is seeing that. 

Gin Stephens: That would be my hunch, that she's at Dunkin Donuts. But I don't know. Maybe, they have a bottled product. 

Melanie Avalon: In any case, if she's looking at it-- because what I'm looking at doesn't even have, they don't even mention the calories. But if she's looking at it and it's saying 10 calories and carbs, it's interesting that she thinks there might be protein present. I would really like to see this label, whatever label she's looking at, but it just goes to what you're speaking about earlier, in that it's hard to know. There could be something in there. So, I really Gin's suggestion of erring on the side of caution and yeah, making your own, just getting a source that you know is good. I personally actually use the Bulletproof coffee, Dave Asprey’s coffee. I've been using that for years and I really like it.  

Gin Stephens: Do you know, I just started using his Nespresso pods. They just came today. I was at my friend's house in Nashville, my friend, Michelle. Hello, Michelle. I had such a great time. By the way, Nashville is a-mazing.  

Melanie Avalon: Nashville's very beautiful.  

Gin Stephens: It is amazing. Anyway, we had a great time but she uses the Bulletproof coffee in Nespresso pods, and they're in a compostable little, I don't know, capsule.  

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I was going to ask. So, is there plastic in them?  

Gin Stephens: Well, it's compostable. So, I don't know what it's made of, but I would figure Dave Asprey would be on the cutting edge of something that's better. [laughs] So, I felt really excited to try it at her house and I liked it. So, I bought some on Amazon. We are not sponsored by a Dave Asprey’s Bulletproof coffee, but it's not Bulletproof coffee, now I'm going to add MCT oil to it. It's the brand. Just like I buy Mayorga Cuban Roast, that is a brand. So, this is just the Bulletproof brand. It's just black coffee.  

Melanie Avalon: I've been using his coffee since years. I really like it. I just really like it. He's made it so known that he's so obsessed with the mold thing-- He doesn't have organic certification or anything like that, but I don't know. He just made it so clear what he feels about with the quality of his coffee that I feel very good purchasing it. I really like it. 

Gin Stephens: Well, there wasn't a good option for the Nespresso until I tried this, and I'm like, “I didn't even know he made this.” 

Melanie Avalon: That actually reminds me, one little last thing about my serrapeptase. I've mentioned this before as well, but haven't found any other serrapeptases in a glass bottle, and we're doing that because while reducing plastic, but if you think about it, a lot of these supplements will say that they are free of phthalates, which are a component of plastic. But a lot of them are sitting in warehouses and plastic bottles, in Amazon warehouses in the heat and plastic bottles. So, it's very likely with that high heat, compounds from the plastic are leaching into the environment or the supplements. So, we are using dark amber glass bottles. So, no plastics at all. Very excited. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah. The more you learn, the more you realize, wow, so many things to consider. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. So, shall we go back to the first thing we were going to talk about, which was some listener feedback?  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, we have some listener feedback from Ryan. The subject is "Spreading the love and lifestyle." Ryan says, "Hello, ladies, Ryan from Ohio here. I just have to start by saying what a great thing I have stumbled upon with IF. I am 34. I've been fasting six days a week minimum, usually leaving Sunday open for family breakfast or early lunch. I'm a pretty typical guy working a day shift factory job. I'm a machinist at a large auto manufacturer in Central Ohio, and I actually got intrigued by a coworker who I would love to hear tell his story, but I doubt he would. Let's just say, he is a totally different person now.  

Back to me. 34, wife and three kids, working five to six days a week, cutting, splitting, hauling firewood at least two days a week. I started out around 215 pounds. I'm 5’5”, and clearly active, but I've been steadily gaining a few pounds a year for the past 15 years. So far, I've binged while working the entire IF podcast series. I just played Episode 230 and 231 this morning, and now have been bouncing back and forth between IF Stories and Melanie's Biohacking Podcast. My mind is blown."  

Gin Stephens: Yay.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. "And now, my best friend in firewood-cutting partner has started IF. His wife, now my mom after really noticing my face and stomach slowing down just since starting all of this at the beginning of July. I'm down 20 to 25 pounds, not really watching that, but today, my work pants are almost falling off my ankle, and my joint pain is nearly gone, I've had tendinitis for years in my ankles and elbows, my father-in-law just ordered Delay, Don't Deny on Amazon, and he's about eight years out losing 100 plus pounds after a gastric bypass, and since gaining back 40 pounds. He was very intrigued by it.  

My wife is doing it. She's been kicking around the idea of weight loss surgery for several years. She's been struggling with starting a new job after eight years of being a stay-at-home mom, and today is actually her 32nd birthday. Hopefully, if nothing else, you ladies can give some inspiration out for her to hear. She had a goal of losing 150 pounds at the last weight loss surgery appointment, and then COVID hit closing all the surgery centers for a while, once again pushing back that thing she needed in her head to get her head in the right direction. I want nothing more than to see her lose the weight and be where she wants to be so we can live our lives healthy and happy, and do all the things we've dreamed of doing.  

Thanks again, you two and several of your guests have really struck a chord with me, and made me look more at what I'm eating, and how different things make me feel different, and make fasting easier. Getting used to black coffee was the hardest part. But now, I really enjoy it and I drink a thermos full throughout the day while working. I'm sure I could do without and just drink water, but it definitely does not affect how I feel. So, why not, right? Fast on." 

Gin Stephens: Oh, I love that email from Ryan. Loved it. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you have some motivation for his wife? It sounds like everybody's on board, but his wife needs some inspiration. 

Gin Stephens: Well, I think that Intermittent Fasting Stories is likely where she's going to find some of her motivation, listening to people like her that have struggled. A lot of women tell their stories. Look, I know what it was like to be obese and feel hopeless, and be so tired of that yo-yo, up and down, up and down and feeling like there's nothing, I could do, to the point that I totally get, when I didn't weigh enough, I'm not sure what the cutoff is for weight loss surgery. But I know there was a time I was like, “Gosh, if I could just get weight loss surgery,” but I think at that time I didn't weigh enough and I'm like, “Well, if I gain more, I'll just have--“  

We think that's the answer. Intermittent fasting really is the answer for you. You just have to be ready. That's the thing about his wife, is that she's got to be ready. We can't be ready for her. Some people are stubborn like my family, for example. The more I push something on them, the less likely they want to do it. So, I just have to sit back and do my thing and not push it. If they want to do it, they will do it. Lead by example rather than by like, “Hey, do this, do this, do this.” If someone is not open to it, you can actually turn them off by trying too hard if that makes sense. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, that's a great thing. I'm really glad that you pointed that out, that didn't even occur to me to bring up that point. Something I was thinking about was, I was talking with a friend recently, and she was doing HCG actually to lose weight. Probably, people who do that, that is very effective.  

Gin Stephens: It's a low-calorie crash diet. Those always are effective until they ruin everything. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. I was going to say in a way, how can it not be when you're only eating 500 calories a day from basically just protein. But what's so interesting is she's a long, long, long time listener of the shows. She wanted my advice about everything, and she was like-- She wanted advice about how to do HCG, and what to do after that, and I was like, “Well, have you tried fasting?” I just assumed that she had because she's been listening to the show for so long. She said something to the effect of like, “Yeah, but--" She's like, “I can't do it. I'll be hungry.” She's with HCG, I'm not even hungry. Basically, she could not understand how fasting could be easy. It didn't seem possible that it could be that easy. 

Gin Stephens: I think the HCG is a placebo, literally. I think all the stuff they tell you about, "Here's why it's so much--" No, I think that the “science” behind it is placebo, and that if you feel great, it's because you're in ketosis. She's already fasting. Here's what I would do for her. She's already doing down days one after the other. So, if I were her, what I would do is completely never do HCG again. I'd burn that down completely, and have a 500-calorie day than an update, then a 500-calorie day, then an up day. Why do I say that? Because she needs that metabolic boost of the up days. She needs to do ADF and it's going to be painless for her. She's already used to down day down, day down, day down, day down day. So, all she should do is just throw up days in between and she'll rev back up her metabolism and not have this yo-yo. Look, I was on that HCG roller coaster. I did it. It worked. I regained all of it and more. I ruined my metabolism. Luckily, I ate like crazy after that and I think I fixed my metabolism, but-- 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad you said that because I'm going to specifically recommend to her ADF.  

Gin Stephens: Tell her Gin said.  

Melanie Avalon: Really quick. My thoughts on HCG, I think a lot of it is placebo. I have gone and tried to find studies on the actual controlled studies on it, because I understand the mechanism of action that they're proposing. I understand that they're saying this hormone, it's basically that catalyst you need to unlock the fat stores when you're in a severe deficit. The reason you're not hungry regardless of if the HCG is the magical thing that's encouraging this more, either way, when people aren't hungry, I think it's probably because they're tapping into their fat stores in ketosis, like you said. So, that's what I told her. I was like, “Fasting is going to do the exact same thing.” It's the same mechanism of action, because her crazy fear was that she was going to be hungry while fasting, and I was trying to show her that the reason she's not hungry on HCG is because she's tapping into her fat store, likely being ketogenic, that's going to happen when she fast. The only difference is that she does like an eating window with a bigger meal, and she's getting that refeeding stimulus, the nutrition, she doesn't have to restrict when she eats. So, it's like the best of both worlds.  

All of that to say, I think this is just some inspiration. I think people's fears about fasting, it's like, once you just bite the bullet and just try it, your body adapts, and it turns out to be for so many people the thing that works. You think you need to do HCG, you think you need to do gastric bypass, you think there's got to be some crazy thing that you need to do. But really, this can do it. This can do it in a healthy way, a sustainable way, a delicious way. So, maybe that's a little bit of motivation. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think so too. So, we have a question from Angela and the subject is "Size of window to lose weight." Angela says, "Hello, I love your podcast and I've ordered all your books, Gin’s and Melanie's, and listened to your podcast every week. I'm so happy for the information so I can answer my husband's comments because he is definitely a calories in, calories burned person. I have just started IF two weeks and my question is, do you have to have a one-hour eating window to lose weight?" No. [laughs] I'm just going to throw that in there right now. No. She says, "I weigh 188, would like to lose approximately 40 to 48 pounds. I'm 64 and I have type 2 diabetes. I've been on every diet since I was about 30 years old. So, I'm very excited to make IF a lifestyle for me. Thank you so much." 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you for your question, Angela. Actually, just tying her excitement back into our previous question, that's another nice reframe. Instead of being nervous about IF, or seeing it as a challenge, or something that might be hard, maybe you can reframe with excitement for all of the amazing things that you know it can bring you, which Angela clearly has this excitement. So, that's very exciting. 

Well, Gin already answered this, but do you have to have a one-hour eating window to lose weight? No. Do some people do better losing weight with a one-hour eating window? Yes. Do some people not do better with a one-hour eating window to lose weight? Yes. Basically, there's a lot of factors involved. I don't think it's so much about especially, because there's only 24 hours in a day. There's only so much flexibility people have an eating window and what I mean by that is, if you eat all in one hour compared to two hours, what is the practical difference there, one hour to two hours to three hours to four hours? True, maybe, a one- or two-hour eating window is much different than an eight-hour eating window. I think the bigger factors that are involved aren't so much the time as having the consistency of your eating window, and then what is the eating window that doesn't cause you to overcompensate-- basically, the eating window that keeps you feeling satisfied, so you don't go into any sort of cycle where you can't sustain it, because it's not providing the nourishment that you need in a window that works for you to be something consistent. Then on top of that, the actual foods that you eat in that window, I think are so, so huge. So, for me, personally, if I had to choose between a one hour eating window of processed standard American food, super high calorie, not as nourishing compared to a longer window with more whole foods, less additives, less processed, I would definitely choose the longer window with the whole foods approach. So, yeah. It’s basically, it's very individual, it's not necessarily more magical if it's one hour, it really depends on a lot of things. What are your thoughts, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: Well, I noticed, I'm big on words. Angela said, she's ordered all of our books, so I bet she hasn't read them yet. So, Angela, once you get Fast. Feast. Repeat, go ahead and flip right to the 28-day, FAST Start chapter and read that first, and that'll help you figure out how to structure your eating window. Then, go back to the eating window chapter and read that one, because I talk a lot about window link. Personally, a one-hour eating window is not sufficient for me day after day after day to get enough food in my body.  

Last week, before I went to Nashville, I was so busy. I had three days in a row where I barely had time to eat, and I had a one-hour window for three days in a row. By that third day, I was in such deep ketosis that I didn't even sleep. So, I was like, "I've got to have an up day." [laughs] My body was telling me I don't know how many calories I ate, but it wasn't enough for my body. Of course, I'm not a counter, but I knew it wasn't enough. Because of the way I was in deep, deep, deep ketosis.  

So, one hour a day is just not enough food for me. I couldn't do that day after day after day after day, and I wouldn't recommend it because our bodies are more likely to adapt if you do the same thing exactly the same thing, day after day. Even with the metabolic benefits of fasting, you still want to be cautious. So, not only do you not have to have a one-hour window to lose weight, I wouldn't recommend it as your preferred, like "Here's the best thing." I'm not ever saying it's the best thing that everybody should do. No. How's that? 

Melanie Avalon: That's great. All right. So, question from Belinda. The subject is "Continuous glucose monitoring and stevia." The reason I wanted to include it was I think it speaks to a little bit of a misconception people might have about something we've talked about which is ZOE, because she doesn't even mention continuous glucose monitors in the question, but you will understand once I read it. 

So, Belinda says, "Hi, guys. First of all, I love your show, and I appreciate all the information. I know you guys often talk about the ZOE app, and I finally decided to do it. However, after filling out the survey on their website, I learned they don't offer it in my state of New Jersey. I was wondering if you could recommend a similar setup that is affordable and comparable."  

Before we go to the next question, we can just answer that one. I think some people might be getting confused because we've talked a lot about ZOE, and I think they think it's main thing is that it's a continuous glucose monitor, like that's its purpose, just because of her subject line. So, ZOE is not just a continuous glucose monitor. If all you wanted was a continuous glucose monitor, I don't think we would recommend ZOE because that's not its main thing. ZOE, that we've talked about that, Gin and I have both done, I'm still waiting on my results, I'm so excited. Oh, by the way, Gin, I literally still think about those muffins and how delicious, like, “Oh.” Actually, I dreamed about them last night.  

Gin Stephens: You're a weirdo. Weirdo.  

Melanie Avalon: I dreamed about them last night.  

Gin Stephens: And I mean that in a loving way everybody.  

Melanie Avalon: I know. Everybody knows I am. Well, other people agree that they were delicious. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, nobody's ever told me that. But I believe you. I believe people. I did not find them too delicious. Maybe because I eat real muffins now. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, probably. In any case, what ZOE is, it's a gut microbiome test. It's a test where you eat these specially formulated muffins that taste delicious. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: Or not. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I think they taste delicious. They're made of different macronutrient breakdowns of carbs and fat. You wear a continuous glucose monitor if you so choose. Not everybody even wears a continuous glucose monitor. You do a self at-home blood prick after eating the muffins to see how your body clears sugar and fats. If you are wearing the monitor, the CGM, you continue to wear that, and basically-- I can't wait to get my results. But they tell you basically how your body processes carbs and fat, and how different foods might affect you, and all that. So, it's an entire comprehensive program. It's not just a continuous glucose monitor.  

If you want just a continuous glucose monitor and you want to actually be able to see data on that, like granular data, you want to get either NutriSense or Levels that we've talked about before. So, Belinda, those are two sources for you. We can put links in the show notes for all of that. So, that answers her first question. 

Her second question, she says, "Also in the past, I was not losing weight with fasting until I finally went to alternate day fasting modified." What is modified alternate day fasting, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: Well, it's the 500-calorie down day.  

Melanie Avalon: Okay, right. Instead of a complete 24-hour fast.  

Gin Stephens: Well, it would be a 36 hour fast, not 24.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Right. But fasting that entire 24-hour day. 

Gin Stephens: It's like two sleeps. You go to bed, wake up, go to bed again, and then the next day is your up day. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. She says, "It finally kick started me until losing about a pound a week and then I went to a restricted eating window, which also didn't work unless I cut my hours down to about a five- to six-hour eating window. My husband was doing it with me and in the past when we have dieted together, he has always lost more weight than me. But unfortunately, he has pretty much stayed the same way over two to three months. I know clean fasting is essential, and I have done that. However, he still uses stevia and his morning coffee. It's supposed to be a natural type of artificial sweetener, and many other people still lose weight using this. Do you think this small thing could be the reason why he has lost no weight? Thank you so much in advance, Belinda."  

Gin Stephens: All right, Melanie, predict my answer.  

Melanie Avalon: I think you're going to say yes.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm going to say yes. Belinda, he is not fast and clean because of the stevia. So, I want you to think about what we said before about clean fasting and the cephalic phase insulin response. Dr. Jason Fung in The Obesity Code says-- this is what slapped me upside the face and gotten me to finally get rid of stevia. It's when he said that stevia causes a greater cephalic phase insulin response than table sugar. He said that in The Obesity Code. It's all about how your tastebuds perceive what's going in. We know stevia is actually sweeter than table sugar. So, all the time that your husband is drinking that coffee with the stevia in it non-stop, his brain is thinking, "Here comes some calories," even though it doesn't have calories, our brains don't understand that we've now come up with this amazing low calorie, zero calorie, artificial sweetener. Our brains don't understand that. Our brains are like, “Oh, sweetness. That means something's coming in, it's going to raise my blood glucose. So, I'm going to need to release some insulin," and you have an insulin response. So, you're going to have insulin response constantly from the little bit of coffee with stevia. Little bit of coffee with stevia, your brain continues to pump out that insulin in response to the sweet taste that you keep having over and over and over again. So, he really needs to just switch to black. He can do it. He can do it. I promise. He needs to rip off that band aid, hold his nose, drink the black coffee. In two weeks, his taste buds will be adjusted and he will be used to it, I promise.  

Melanie Avalon: I would definitely recommend cutting out the stevia and then, if he still doesn't lose weight, that's when I think really looking at food choices and things like that might be helpful. I will put a link in the show notes. I wanted to include this question because Noelle Tarr and Stefani Ruper, their show, Well-Fed Women, their most recent episode, Noelle did the deepest dive in stevia I have ever heard. I applaud her. I'm actually really, really, really good friends with Noelle. But it was Episode Number 342 of Well-Fed Women, and she talks about every study on stevia that there is. Her discussion of it is actually more in the context of eating, not in the context of fasting, because it does seem that with food that it possibly has, depending on the context, beneficial effects on regulating insulin production, but I don't think that necessarily extends to fasting, because people often say that stevia lowers blood sugar, but it's possible that it's doing that because it's releasing insulin to lower the blood sugar.  

Well, what's interesting though in favor of stevia while eating, this is something that Noelle talks about, it seems to have that effect beneficially, and it's like an adaptogenic way when you're eating. So, basically, I don't know how it knows. I need to go read the studies that she was talking about. But it seems that it has a beneficial effect if you are in a high blood sugar carb situation. It helps compared to when you're not, it doesn't have that effect. I don't know. it seems to have a pretty cool effect. But this is all in the context of eating. 

So, when you're fasting, that's a different story. Even if the actual mechanisms of it are not releasing insulin, there's always that psychological component of tasting something sweet. Even though, weirdly enough, she quoted a study that looked at fasted intake of stevia compared to other different artificial sweeteners and I think it didn't have that effect psychologically, but I just don't think you can make a blanket statement about that. There is the sweet taste and I think certain people are most likely going to respond to that. So, keeping the fast clean like Gin said can be so, so, so key. So, yes.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I just think it's transformational. For me, I used stevia all the way through, because I just was also in that calories in, calories out mindset until I read The Obesity Code and I was like, “Oh, it's insulin. Hello.” But I started to regain weight. I had regained eight of the pounds I'd lost because basically I was doing a low-calorie diet when I was having the stevia all the time. I wasn't fasting clean. As soon as I stopped the stevia, I lost the eight pounds I had regained, and I've been maintaining ever since. And also, that's when my allergies went away. It wasn't till I started fasting clean. It's also when I stopped white knuckling my fasts.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.  

Gin Stephens: Have him take the clean fast challenge. Tell him to give it six weeks, and then he can experiment with the stevia and see what happens. He won't go back to it if he gives it six weeks. 

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. So, if he cuts it out and he's still struggling to lose weight. report back and we'll troubleshoot that.  

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Melanie Avalon: This question is from Sherry. The subject is "Feedback and a quick question." So, she has some feedback as well. She says, "Hi ladies, I love, love, love this podcast. You to take the fear and worry out of fasting and make me feel like I can easily live an IF lifestyle. I also listen to Melanie's Biohacking Podcast, and I love the way she will interview so many people with differing opinions, but never with an attitude of right or wrong, always with a sense of curiosity." Well, thank you, Sherry. She says, "I also listen to if stories when I need inspiration." Well, that's perfect, because, Gin, you're recommending that earlier for inspiration. 

Gin Stephens: Well, it is so inspirational. I'm inspired every time I talk to somebody else. 

Melanie Avalon: That's fantastic. Perfect. She says, "I have read Delay, Don't Deny and Fast. Feast. Repeat, and some of the books Melanie recommends as well. I just finished Atomic Habits. It changed my life. My quick question is this. I understand that teas like chamomile break my fast as they create an insulin spike. Does chamomile create an insulin spike? 

Gin Stephens: It's not a bitter flavor profile. It's sweet.  

Melanie Avalon: She says, "I'm wondering if I've just eaten and my insulin is up and doing its thing with my meal, I am one meal a day. Will having a cup of chamomile extend the digestion time or rather the time it takes to get me back into fat burning mode. I hope that makes sense. Keep up the awesome work, you two.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I wouldn't think it would be a problem at all at any point during your eating window. Because remember, you're eating so your body is releasing insulin, you're not in fat burning mode. You've already got a lot going on where your body's digesting the food you just ate. So, drinking the tea at that point, it's not going to cause giant amounts of insulin in it to be secreted. So, it's going to have a negligible effect. It's not the same as if you're deep in fat burning mode and then you have something sweet. So, yeah, have it. Have it during your eating window as much as you want. 

Melanie Avalon: It brings up something I'd like to draw attention to which we've talked about this before. But basically, when you're in the eating window, you're eating. You're in the fed state, insulin is supposed to be released, it's doing its thing, especially adding in something noncaloric like chamomile shouldn't be a problem at all. I just want to clarify, that's not the same thing though as, "Oh, since I'm in the eating state, if I just keep eating more and more and more, it doesn't matter because I'm in the eating state." That's not actually not the same thing.  

The only reason I'm clarifying is with sugar or carbs, for example, just because you're in the eating state, everything that you take in is going to have to be processed at some point. So, bringing in more and more and more, your body's going to have to deal with that still. But compared to something noncaloric like chamomile, it should be completely fine.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's an excellent point. Just because you're in your eating window doesn't mean unlimited ice cream [laughs] although ice cream is delicious. There was one day I was in Nashville, we walked by this ice cream place that I love and it was just after noon, and Nashville is a different time zone. So, I'm like, "I am opening my window with ice cream at 12:15 on a Saturday." 

Melanie Avalon: Were you starving after that? I would be starving. 

Gin Stephens: No, ice cream doesn't make me starving. I guess it's the fats and sugar together. Ice cream doesn't make me starving. Now, I had something like a donut, I probably would have been, I don’t know. Ice cream is just really satiating for me. It goes back to that ZOE individuality, again. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. You know what's really interesting about that?  

Gin Stephens: What? 

Melanie Avalon: I like in my head can appreciate the thought of a lot of delicious things, especially things like cake. I love thinking about paleo or keto versions of red velvet cake or Funfetti. I really only think about those when I've already eaten. So, like the whole dessert concept. After I've eaten my meal, I'm like, “Oh, it would be nice to have a keto, paleo red velvet cake or Funfetti cake at this moment.” I never crave that breaking my fast. When I'm ready to break my fast my body's like, “I want protein.” I would much rather eat just a slab of chicken honestly. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we were going to have an amazing brunch later, and I knew that, we had brunch coming up at 2:30. We had reservation at this amazing place. Man, it was good. My friend, Michelle, knows food. We basically ate our way through Nashville. It was fabulous. Ice cream, and then-- So, I basically had one meal a day, but I had my dessert first.  

Melanie Avalon: Really quick story. I was a fine dining server. I think I've told this story before. I was a fine dining server for five or six years. One time in that five or six years, a family came in and they all ordered their dessert first. 

Gin Stephens: And then, did they eat their meal?  

Melanie Avalon: Uh-huh.  

Gin Stephens: Well, you know what, you want to save room for dessert?  No, we're not going to save room for dessert. We're going to start there. 

Melanie Avalon: It was so interesting. They were like, “This is what we do.” They're like, “Can we see the dessert menu?” I was like, “Okay.” They're like, “We are dessert for.” I worked at a steakhouse. So, it was like, they ordered their dessert and I had to go back to the kitchen and be like-- the kitchen was so confused because if you've been a server before you put in the order an order, they were like, “You screwed this up.” Because I put it in for the dessert to go out first and then the steak. They're like, “What are you doing?” I was like, “That's what they want.” [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: Well, it makes sense. I had my delicious ice cream to open my window and we walked with it. We were on our walk. So, we walked there, and walked back to her house. We're eating and walking. [laughs] But it was fabulous, and then I was ready. I was ready for our brunch, and then it was amazing, and then I closed my window, and that was it. 

Melanie Avalon: Nice. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens, and then our main account is @ifpodcast. So, yes, I think that is all the things. Any thoughts from you, Gin, before we go?  

Gin Stephens: Nope, that's it.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.  

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Oct 10

Episode 234: Bathroom Regularity, Irritable Bowel, The Supplement Industry, Slow Or Fast Weight Loss, Timing Coffee & Caffeine, Family Meal Timing, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 234 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: Liv - 1-2 hour window, constipation, when everything balances out?

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Listener Q&A: Kristy - Optimal time for coffee?

Listener Q&A: Melody - Crossroad on my IF journey

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 234 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.  

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Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 234 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens. 

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: I'm great. We've been running around all day, and running in here to get started recording the podcast. The weather has really changed here. Has it changed there? It just feels so different. 

Melanie Avalon: It does feel different. It's rainy, but it's not like cold yet.  

Gin Stephens: No, it's not cold. I actually went swimming yesterday. Even though it's cooler. We finally got the pool. The pool is 100% ready to go. We wanted to test out. They just hooked up the pool heater. I cranked it up. I wanted to see what would happen, how long it would take. The pool was 75 degrees, so it wasn't really cold to start with. Although you know me, 75 is cold in water. I cranked it up to 90 to see how long it would take to get my little tiny pool at 90. It did it pretty quickly. Man, I felt like heaven. So, I swam and enjoyed my 90-degree pool and then turned off the pool heater and that was it. 

Melanie Avalon: I learned this fun fact this week. Did you know you probably didn't know that you can die of hypothermia in water that is just as long as it's just like barely below your body temperature, if you're there long enough? 

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know that I would have known what the temperature was. But, yeah, because it takes the heat out of our bodies. I taught elementary science for a long time, and so I always taught my kids heat likes to share. Heat always goes from the hotter thing to the cooler thing, it transfers. That makes perfect sense. Eventually your body wants to maintain 98.6 or whatever your body temperature is. If you're in a body of water that's cooler than yourself, heat transfers from your body into the water. Eventually, I guess your body can't keep up. It just depends. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I never thought about it before, but it's pretty interesting. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it doesn't have to be freezing water for you to get hypothermia.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Can I tell you my crazy update story?  

Gin Stephens: Yes.  

Melanie Avalon: About the Whole Foods guy? 

Gin Stephens: I can't wait to hear it. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: So, you encouraged me to just put myself out there. 

Gin Stephens: And go looking like yourself. Yeah.  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I did not go looking like myself, but I went back, I think last week, and I needed to get dressed up anyway, because I was going to go out with my cousin, and then she canceled on me. Then I was like, “Well, I need to go to Whole Foods. So just go to Whole Foods.” [laughs] I went to Whole Foods, and he was there. I awkwardly, again, walked around the store with no purpose, trying to get up the courage to talk to him. And then, it was this awkward moment where he was in a cashier lane that wasn't open. But there was a really long line at another cashier lane. I was like, “I'll just wait in this line long enough. And maybe he'll be like, ‘Oh, come to my lane.’” But then the self-checkout girl was like, “You can just come over here.” And I was like, “Um.” [laughs] I'm such a rule follower person, but I was like, “Okay.” I checked out, I had given up, I was like, “This is not going to happen.” So, I left the store, but he was outside. Gin, this is so bad. He was outside putting the carts away. I was like, “I just have to do this. This is the time." I saw him pushing a cart. And I was like, “This just has to happen now or never.” I drove up to him in my car, and I rolled down the window. And he said, “Hi.” [laughs] I was like, “Three questions for you.” [laughs] He was like-- 

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, I can't wait to hear what those questions are. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: He was like, “Okay,” and then I was like, “Well, actually, maybe just one question. It depends on the first question.” And he was like, “Okay,” and then I was like, “Do you have a girlfriend?” [laughs] And then, he was like, “Yes.” 

Gin Stephens: Aww. And you're like, “Okay, I just have one. That's it.”  

Melanie Avalon: And then, I was like, “Okay, well, that was my question.”  

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm so proud of you for putting yourself out there. 

Melanie Avalon: I am mortified. He was like, “Thanks.” I drove away. I'm mortified. I'm not doing that again. 

Gin Stephens: Well, no, I don't think you should be mortified. Why would you be mortified? 

Melanie Avalon: I just feel like that's a little bit embarrassing.  

Gin Stephens: No. Look, I am 100% certain that we're all just screwed up inside. Of course, I've been married for 30 years, so take it with a grain of salt. But imagine as awkward as it felt for you to ask that question, imagine if he did not have a girlfriend and was interested in you, and might feel awkward about asking you, something like that. So, if everybody just goes around worrying about how awkward it feels, no one's ever going to meet anybody else. So put yourself out there. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I definitely did that. 

Gin Stephens: And you did. And you know what? No shame in that. 

Melanie Avalon: But every time now that I go to Whole Foods-- so before it was like, “I hope he's there. I hope he's there.” Now I'm like, “I hope he's not here.” 

Gin Stephens: Nope, you own it and you talk to him because he doesn't have a wife. [laughs] That doesn't mean that he'll be with that girlfriend forever. Maybe they'll break up in a week, who knows, you never know. 

Melanie Avalon: I can be his rebound.  

Gin Stephens: Well, exactly. You just never know. So, do not have any shame in that. I would absolutely still be like, “Hey, how are you doing?” I would talk to him. Of course, I'm old. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Well, I never talked to him when I'm not my normal self. Only when I'm dressed up. 

Gin Stephens: I would talk to him anytime now just because you've already broken the ice. 

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I need to apologize. 

Gin Stephens: No. Why would you apologize? 

Melanie Avalon: For like, I don't know, just driving up to him and asking him about his relationship status. 

Gin Stephens: Nope. I mean, that's how people used to do it back in the day with words, [laughs] face to face that's all we had. I mean, you could put a note in my locker, but that was the limit. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting, though, socially, girls are not the one who-- even still, like, it's not normal for girls to walk up to a guy and do that.  

Gin Stephens: I think that might be, when you get older, like me, like I said, I've been off market for 30 years, but I think the rules are changed. I think you can. I think it's okay. 

Melanie Avalon: I did.  

Gin Stephens: Well, good.  

Melanie Avalon: I just need to see him once, like, it's just that first initial like, “Oh, man, awkward,” and then I'll be good. 

Gin Stephens: I would just act like it's perfectly perfect. Like, “Hey, how are you doing?” I would definitely do that. I would not be the least bit embarrassed. There's no reason to be embarrassed. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I'll feel it out. I'll probably just avoid them like the plague.  

Gin Stephens: I wouldn't do that. I think that men like confident women who are not afraid to put themselves out there. I think that has to be attractive. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, it's funny, I posted a story about it on Instagram, and probably 30 people have messaged me, saying that, like, “Oh, that's so confident.” And I'm like, “Friends, I am not confident. It was not confident.” 

Gin Stephens: Fake it till you make it. That was confidence but you did it, though, that you were confident enough to do it. So, rewrite that message you're telling yourself, “You are confident.” 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, pep talk for all the ladies out there, confidence. My three questions were going to be. One, “Do you have a girlfriend?” And he was supposed to say no. And then, I was going to say, “Are you straight?” And he was supposed to say yes. And then I was going to say, “Do you want to get drinks?” That was the plan. But it did not manifest as such. 

Gin Stephens: I mean, he could be crazy. So, maybe you just lucked out. 

Melanie Avalon: This is true. So, that's my story. 

Gin Stephens: Well, thank you for that update. I know everyone is happy. And so now though, again, next time you're in there, you need to be confident and even if you're just dressed normal and not fancy, just be like, “Hey, how are you doing?” Smile and walk on and you got nothing to worry about. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I'll just hear Gin in my head. Smile and walk. 

Gin Stephens: Exactly. What's the worst thing that can happen? Nothing. No guy is thinking, “Darn it. Why did that attractive woman asked me if I had a girlfriend?” No man will think of that. The very worst you made him feel good about himself.  

Melanie Avalon: True.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. You should ask more men that question. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] I was going to start walking up to all the men. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: “Hello, do you have a girlfriend?” [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: I'm very rarely attracted to people, in general. I don't know.  

Gin Stephens: I know what you mean, I get that.  

Melanie Avalon: And it's a completely random, like, I can't like put a-- I don't know why I am, but I just am, was, so yes.  

Gin Stephens: Anything could still happen.  

Melanie Avalon: This is true.  

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Shall we jump into everything for today? 

Gin Stephens: Yes. We have a question from Liv and the subject is, “One-to-two-hour window, constipation, when everything balances out?” She says, "Hi, Melanie and Gin. I adore your podcast and love to skip around depending on the day and what I need regarding tips, IF education, and motivation. I'm a 30-year-old female and I've been athletic and health food based my entire life. Growing up on a fruit orchard with health-conscious parents was very helpful in my building blocks for plant based and whole food eating. I worked in a health food store through high school and college and have always been drawn to naturopathic and holistic medicine. That said, I avoid junk processed foods in excess of dairy or meat etc. However, like most people, I keep a balance and do eat desserts every now and then and I drink wine regularly. I used to kill myself at the gym to knock out my stubborn 10 pounds of extra fat. That seems to be so cozy around my midsection and hips. I could run five to seven miles a day and nothing was as successful for me as IF. I have been on and off this way of life for five years and never stuck to it for maintenance as I should have.  

I am now back on two weeks eating a one-to-two-hour window and feeling amazing. Weight is falling off again and I'm sticking to my tennis game and more leisurely physical fitness. Huge plus in this heat in Ohio. My question is one, I have not heard discussed too much on your podcast or maybe I'm missing the episode. Pooping.” Can I just say, Melanie, she just must not be in the Facebook groups? Of course, I'm not on Facebook anymore, but I'm still in the moderator chat. I can just tell you, Liv, pooping is a frequent topic of discussion and the moderators joke about who gets to answer it. From constipation to diarrhea, it comes up and people are not afraid to ask anything about pooping. Do you hear it in your group?  

Melanie Avalon: I do. For some reason I feel like maybe not quite as much, but there's a lot of bowel discussion for sure. 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, the Ask a Moderator is full of poop talk and some people run away from those questions. They're like, “No,” and then they’ll tag another moderator. [laughs] -get them to answer. On to Liv’s question. She says, “Yes. Can we all admit we poop and discuss IF and pooping issues? I am someone who likes to poop every day and when I don't, I get irritable. Does my window reflect too small of an eating window to produce a daily bowel movement? Is constipation a temporary thing? As women, I feel we're more subject to this physiologically.” I'm not sure that's true for women, maybe. 

Melanie Avalon: I think so. 

Gin Stephens: I know we have a lot of water balance issues that can affect things in our bowels as well, but men have the issue, too. 

Melanie Avalon: IBS is associated with women more. 

Gin Stephens: Is it? Or do women just be more likely to mention it that?  

Melanie Avalon: That is possible, that is very possible. 

Gin Stephens: I feel Chad could be having whatever in the world is going on? And he's not going to tell me. Of course, other men are different but who knows. She says, “How long does it take to regulate? Can you please describe your experiences and/or share your research on this topic?” Liv, I'm a great pooper. [laughs] The more vegetables I eat, the better it is. All right. 

Melanie Avalon: The more I eat the worse it is.  

Gin Stephens: Really, yeah, the more I eat, the better it is. When I was eating according to the ZOE protocol. It was like even the best ever. She says, “I think ketosis and fasting can really change things for people here. I feel it's valuable to discuss in order for me to feel a little more normal. Also, I've read that most people are carrying around a minimum of 10 pounds of bile. Now she said bile, but I wonder if she meant bile.  

Melanie Avalon: She probably meant-- 

Gin Stephens: Like just waste products in our like fecal matter? Yeah. She says, “Yeah, yuck. I have to guess that I have helped with this because sometimes, and sorry, this is nasty. Sometimes what comes out and these first few weeks back to fasting, feels like that type of stored sludge, for lack of a better term backing me up. No shame in the pooping game. Love you both, Liv.” 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you for your question. This is perfect timing. I had a colonoscopy a few days ago. And it was really exciting. Have you had one, Gin?  

Gin Stephens: No, not yet.  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I've had three. It was like a clean bill. What was interesting was she said I have a twisty colon. Have you heard of that?  

Gin Stephens: Well, no.  

Melanie Avalon: So, I haven't hardcore gone down the rabbit research hole on it. Because I don't want to because I don't want to. I briefly googled it and it said that it can relate to things like constipation and stuff like that. So, I was like, “Oh, that might explain a lot.” 

Gin Stephens: Well, it sounds like it totally could explain a lot, because if your physiology is just a little bit off, then things can't flow through. They're supposed do that, that could really make a lot of sense. And then maybe that could cause backing up into your small intestines and some issues like you've had there with SIBO, I don't know. 

Melanie Avalon: Speaking to that, one of the things I really noticed, because, Liv, I can identify with you, although she said she's just been back to her intermittent fasting for two weeks. It could be something that does regulate, because when some people make big changes in their eating windows, sometimes it does take a little bit to regulate. I think something that it might depend on is, historically, have you had issues with constipation or IBS? Or, is it just when you do the fasting? If you've had issues before, then it quite possibly will be an ongoing thing. I as well identify with you, I get very irritable if things aren't flowing. So, I do all that I can to make sure things are flowing. Oh, you know what else is really interesting? I came out of the anesthesia and the doctor who she was really nice and really amazing. But she was going over my results, she was asking me about my bowel habits. And I said that I take a lot of magnesium to keep things flowing, because that works really well for me. And she was like, “Oh, well, you should definitely just take MiraLAX.” And I was like, “But the magnesium works.” And she was like, “No, you should really just take MiraLAX and then she left. 

Gin Stephens: That sounds like really bad advice. 

Melanie Avalon: I know, she left. I was talking to my mom and I was like, “Why was she so insistent I take MiraLAX?” We were just talking about how with conventional doctors, it's like they're trained to just prescribe the conventional pharmaceutical route to things. So needless to say, I will not be switching to MiraLAX. Liv, if your constipation ends up being something that is ongoing, like I said, magnesium works really, really well for me. 

Gin Stephens: And it's an essential nutrient. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. It's like win-win situation. And that was actually something that I was really happy about with the colonoscopy, because, basically, with my own personal-- man, this is just the personal Melanie episode. [laughs]  

Gin Stephens: Tell you what, [laughs] do you ever have gas? What about belching? 

Melanie Avalon: Oh my gosh, I actually don't. [laughs] Anyways, I find that I can really keep things flowing really well with magnesium, but I have been a little bit concerned about it, because I feel like I'm causing myself to have the bowel movements. I was wondering if it's okay to be doing high dose magnesium to keep things flowing and all of that, but the colonoscopy was like perfectly fine. So that was really reassuring. It's not just me with the magnesium, a lot of people report this, so many people in my Facebook group IF Biohackers report that when they started taking magnesium, especially Magnesium Breakthrough by BiOptimizers and I did not plan this. But that actually really helps their bowel movements. We do have a discount code for them. So, if you go to magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast10, that will get you 10% off any of their products, but in particular, their Magnesium Breakthrough is what they are promoting with that link. A lot of people have reported that that really, really helps. So, I take that.  

I also have found that a low FODMAP diet, and that's just personal to me, but basically finding the foods that work for you, and it's very individual, which we already discussed, because like Gin for example, when she eats a lot of vegetables, she has great bowel movements. 

Gin Stephens: They're perfect.  

Melanie Avalon: If I eat a lot of vegetables, no, not good bowel movements, and it'll just kind of stop everything. I really do a low FODMAP approach. You can actually get my app Food Sense Guide and it has over 300 foods and it tells if they are low, medium or high FODMAP and it also includes a lot of other compounds that you might be reacting to, like histamine and gluten and oxalates and sulfites and thiols and nightshades and AIP, so that might be a helpful resource if you want to try playing with the foods that you're eating. So, that is at melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide 

This is something else that the doctor said, so I find that if I use HCL and digestive enzymes, that those really, really helped digest my food and stop me from getting blockages or constipated. It helps so much, so, so much. I told the doctor, when I came out of the colonoscopy that I was taking those, she said, “You shouldn't take those. There's no scientific support behind that.” It was frustrating. I was like, “It helps me so much and it's completely natural.” I don't know, it was a little bit frustrating. BiOptimizers, they do make HCL supplements and digestive enzymes. So, you might want to try that. And then like you mentioned psychologically, or she said, physiologically, but psychologically, I think it plays a role as well. I really, really think it's about finding the foods and a pattern that can work for you and using the support where you need it to really get things flowing. It might, like I said, it's only been two weeks. So, it might regulate, but if it doesn't, there's a lot of things that you can try for sure. Gin, do you have thoughts? 

Gin Stephens: Just you know, as I said at the beginning, we have a lot of questions about constipation to diarrhea and everything in between when people start off, there seems to be an adjustment period for a lot of people. I didn't have it. I did not have that adjustment period. Either way, like some people have the dumping kind of a syndrome thing. Where are they? As soon as they open their window, they're running to the bathroom. It just gets their digestion started in there and they're pooping right away. Other people, they're putting less food in, so less foods coming out. They can be constipated.  

I don't know, for me, I just am lucky. I've never really had these problems. But I also was already taking magnesium before I started intermittent fasting, because I did that whole summer of keto before I switched over to intermittent fasting and I had a lot of trouble sleeping while I was doing keto. In the keto community, they're like, "Trouble sleeping? Take magnesium because it helps our bodies relax.” I was already taking magnesium and I've taken magnesium ever since I've been-- I am not a supplement person. People know this about me. I don't take a million things. I take very few things, and magnesium is the thing I have been taking since 2014 without stopping. It helps me to sleep and also I wake up in the morning and I take my magnesium at bedtime just whatever the dosage is on the capsule, on the bottle of whatever I've been taking right now, it is Magnesium Breakthrough but it's been other things in the past. Whatever the recommended dosage is, I take that at bedtime and go to bed, go to sleep.  

Wake up in the morning, have my coffee, go to the bathroom. It's clockwork for me. Did I ever tell the story, Melanie, about how Chad wanted to go fishing really early when we first got his little boat? We haven't been in a long time, but he would want to go really early in the morning and we would have to get up and I'm like, “I can't be out on the boat until I've gone to the bathroom.” [laughs] Because that that doesn't sound very fun to me. I'm just a very regular, and then that's it. If I have a big eating window, I might go more than once during the day even, not just that once in the morning. I don't know if the magnesium has helped me, maybe if I wasn't taking magnesium when I started doing intermittent fasting, maybe I would have had one of those problems, but because I go to the bathroom in the fasted state, I think when I open my window, I don't have anything for my body to dump out. So, I don't know if that's been the secret to my success and I didn't even know it.  

Melanie Avalon: I have an exciting update to what I just said. I haven't looked at the full offer right now for BiOptimizers, so it's not just 10% off, actually at that link right now, this is so exciting. So, if you go to magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast10, and use the code IFPODCAST10, so you will save 10% when you try Magnesium Breakthrough, but then on top of that you will get a free bottle of P3-OM. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, that's true. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, a free bottle of P3-OM, which is their bestselling probiotic, which also that could possibly really help. I love that probiotic. And MassZymes, which are the enzymes. I was just talking about-- that's so perfect. Okay, so over $50 worth of free supplements, one of which I just recommended for you and the other I would have recommended if I had remembered it. magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast10, 10% off discount, plus the chance to get a free P3-OM and MassZymes. The reason they founded their company was to help fix people's digestions. 

Gin Stephens: And their own. They'd founded it for because they got interested in it because they needed it for themselves. Like you and the Serrapeptase, that's just the thing. That's why I trust them. I've said before, I'm weird about who I trust when it comes to supplements by trust BiOptimizers they actually sponsor Intermittent Fasting Stories as well. I say no to lots of companies, mostly supplement companies all the time as a no, no, no, but I said yes to BiOptimizers. 

Melanie Avalon: I have been going down the rabbit hole this week with the supplement companies creating the Serrapeptase because there are so many Serrapeptases on the market, and a lot of them say on the bottle that they're free of fillers. But I've been working with the guy I'm creating a supplement with and he's like, “I don't know if we can make it without a filler.” And I'm like, “Well, what about all these other ones for making it without fillers?” So, we've been going through and looking at them and finding out what's really going on and they do tricky things with the labels. 

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. Well, hello, welcome to-- Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. They make it seem like it's without fillers, but it really is. 

Gin Stephens: Lies.  

Melanie Avalon: A lot of them are said to be enteric-coated Serrapeptase free of fillers. So, basically, they say that the Serrapeptase itself is enteric coated. That coating is like a filler. It's not something you want to be putting in your body. We've been doing a lot of lab testing and trying to figure out, “Can we make it with no fillers? If it has to be filler, what is that going to be?” It might be something like benign, like cellulose, but oh, even like a lot of the bottles will-- they'll make it seem like it's like calcium, but it's basically like the equivalent of a magnesium steroids. It's not really calcium. It's this filler material. I've been learning so much. And now I'm just like, A, I need to make this Serrapeptase, so I can make one that I feel comfortable about. B, I just want to make my own versions of everything that I'm taking, because then I will know. So, yeah, for listeners, if you'd like to get on the preorder list for that, that's at melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase. S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. I'm excited.  

Gin Stephens: So much of the supplement industry is not trustworthy.  

Melanie Avalon: It's so sketchy.  

Gin Stephens: It really is sketchy. I am super, super-- especially when I was doing my research for Clean(ish) and it's in the book, I talk about what they found when they've actually looked in certain supplements and found what's in there and it's like prescription medications that are banned from the market, but they're putting it in this supplement and claiming it's one thing when it's really Viagra in there or something. People are just taking it and you have to be careful with drug interactions. And if you don't even know you're taking a drug because it's illegally in a supplement that's supposed to be ginkgo biloba, for example, and instead it's something else, you don't even know. 

Melanie Avalon: Is that the type of stuff they would like put the Viagra in? 

Gin Stephens: I don't have it off the top of my head. Ginkgo biloba is one that I talk about in Clean(ish), but it's been in all sorts of supplements, like maybe it's a weight loss supplement, and they claim that it's one thing, but really it's a prescription diet pill that's been pulled from the market, because it's got concerns, but instead they're putting it in this supplement and claiming it's one thing but it's really this other thing. 

Melanie Avalon: The research, I was reading a study on looking at melatonin supplements, it was shocking, because the episode that's airing this week is actually with Dr. John Lieurance about melatonin, but what it says melatonin wise, and then what it actually is, is there's a huge range. Just because there's no regulation on it, like if these were pharmaceuticals, they would be very tightly regulated. I think was Tim Spector. I had not thought about this before. It's a slight tangent, but related. He was pointing out the fact that if artificial sweeteners tasted bitter, not sweet, they probably would have been regulated like a drug rather than artificial sweeteners. Isn’t that interesting? 

Gin Stephens: What would their purpose have been? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm paraphrasing, but basically just the concept that if they presented differently as bitter. 

Gin Stephens: They wouldn't have been like, “Oh, here's the food additive.”  

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they would have been more supplement or a drug or something, not artificial sweeteners that we just liberally throw on our food. I thought that was really interesting.  

Gin Stephens: We didn't even think about what it might be doing. We just like, “Oh, this is sweet. Let's try this.” 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I thought that was pretty interesting.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I'm very, very skeptical about supplements and that's why BiOptimizers, I trust them because they've made it for themselves. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Hopefully that helps, Liv, feel free to email us back or join us on one of the Facebook groups and share your story. We hope that things start flowing for you.  

Gin Stephens: Literally. 

Melanie Avalon: Literally. Okay, so we have a question from Kathy. The subject is, “Clean fast.” Kathy says, I'm on day 41 of 23:1, and I'm amazed that I've made it this far. I'm down 14 pounds, but I'm definitely not losing fast. I have at least 80 pounds to lose.” 

Gin Stephens: Oh, can I say something there about that? She's lost 0.34 pounds a day. So that is like amazingly fast. Down 14 pounds in 41 days is like astronomically fast, and you should not expect it to be that fast. Everybody needs to immediately change their expectations if you think that losing 0.34 pounds a day is not fast. 

Melanie Avalon: That is a really good point. It's so interesting, I feel people write into us a lot and have this same general idea. They say how much they're losing that it's not fast.  

Gin Stephens: People all the time do that. You're right. One of the things that people will say in the IF community and the Delay, Don't Deny, the main group, the groups that I used to run and the Social Network, they'll call themselves a turtle. That's just a cute little name for someone who loses slowly, then they'll talk about how much they're losing, and they're losing about a pound a week. That is not turtle. That is average, that is normal. We've got these expectations that we're supposed to lose a lot of weight really fast, or they're turtles, but a pound a week is not a turtle. It is not slow. If you're losing a half a pound a week, okay, that's more like a turtle. Anyway, I just had to throw that in there. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, reframe, listeners. Back to Kathy's question. She says, “I have at least 80 pounds to lose.” That's probably what it is, is probably she's just seeing all that she still has, and so it's not seeing the forest for the trees is that the phrase? 

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Yes, because it feels like so much. And then you go to the checkout counter and you see those magazines at the checkout counter that say, “Lose 100 pounds by Thanksgiving.” They say stuff like that crazy, stuff like that. And then you're like, “Well, I should be losing 100 pounds about Thanksgiving,” but you're not going to not a fat, anyway. 

Melanie Avalon: She says, “At the beginning, I was drinking chai tea, and my friend said it may not make my fast clean. I have since eliminated the tea. But would black chai tea wreck my efforts? I'm working my way through your podcast, I'm on 33 now, so many to listen to so little time.” 

Gin Stephens: Yeah, there are a lot to listen to. [laughs]  

Melanie Avalon: Chai tea, black chai tea. 

Gin Stephens: That would be a no for the fast caffeine, I'm sorry about that, because the only things that are yes during the fast are plain water, black coffee, plain tea. If you add in anything with other flavors, your body's going to start to perceive that as a food, like flavor. Chai tea is delicious. It's got all those spices in there, it's comforting. It's so good. I used to put cinnamon in my coffee for years because it's so good, but that's not part of a clean fast. Delay the chai tea for your eating window. If you think of something, and your thought is, “Wow, that's delicious,” it's probably not a good part of the clean fast. So, I also want to say, Kathy, you're doing 23:1, I would like to encourage you to consider switching it up a little bit. Personally, I don't recommend 23:1 for most people as a long-term approach. And that is because our bodies do adapt to anything that's too consistent from day to day. And in a one hour eating window, it's difficult for your approach to not end up being overly restrictive over time. Even though fasting is protective of our metabolic rights in so many ways, if you over restrict long term, even with fasting, eventually, you're going to see that your body may plateau before you wanted it to. I would really think about switching up what you're doing.  

I have this explained a lot more in a lot more detail with the science behind it in Fast. Feast. Repeat. I talked about it in the introduction and also in the alternate daily fasting chapter. So, bear that in mind. I mean you've done great, you've lost a lot of weight in a very short time. If you see that you're plateauing, and also in Fast. Feast. Repeat. I encourage you to weigh daily and then track your how your average is doing, what your trend is doing, either through an app or through weekly averaging. If you notice that your trend plateaus, you're no longer going down on your weekly average or overall trend. That's when you know that your body probably wants you to switch things up.  

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I knew that this was a Gin question. 

Gin Stephens: It totally was a Gin question. [laughs]  

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to our next question? 

Gin Stephens: Yes. This is from Christie. Christie says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie. Love the podcast and especially the two of you, you balance each other really well and I love the story of how you met. I've learned so much from you too and I thank you for guiding me down this IF lifestyle, which I absolutely love. I recently went on vacation to Hawaii for a couple of weeks, and had very long windows with my family. I couldn't wait to get back to my one meal a day life. This just feels so natural to me. Thank you for introducing me to it and teaching me. Now to my question. I was drinking my coffee listening to the podcast the other day. And Gin was saying not to drink coffee before a fasting insulin test because it prompts your liver to dumb glycogen and can mess with the results. That got me thinking. Is there an optimal time in the fast like a minimum number of hours before or after you close your window when you should have coffee? I typically fast at least 20 hours, but I have my coffee at around the 12th hour. Would it be better if I pushed it a little longer, does that matter? Thank you in advance. Christie.”  

Melanie Avalon: I'm actually interestingly going to answer your question from a slightly different perspective. I know you're asking about it for liver glycogen dumping. I don't really know that that would be the thing to focus on with a coffee. I actually am interviewing Dr. Michael Breus this week who wrote The Power of When about the different chronotypes. And he has a new book coming out called Energize!, which is about the sleep chronotypes paired with actually body types. He actually talks a lot about drinking coffee and caffeine from a circadian rhythm perspective based on your personal chronotype. I thought I would share that information because I thought it was really interesting. There are basically four chronotypes and you can figure out which one you are by-- he has a quiz on his website, we can put a link to in the show notes or you can read his book or you can try to figure it out from what I say.  

Basically, there are dolphins, which is me, those are resident insomniacs They stay up late and have trouble sleeping and all of those things. There are lions, like Gin, who get up early and fall asleep early. There are bears which are the majority of the population. So, that's what social norms are basically based around. I think around 50% of people are bears. And then there are wolves that naturally wake up late and naturally stay up late. They often think that they're insomniacs, like dolphins, but it's probably just because their natural rhythm doesn't align with society's natural rhythm. So, they think it's insomnia. But really, it's just their natural rhythm, compared to dolphins where it literally is insomnia. In any case, his thoughts on caffeine and coffee, so he actually thinks that you should not have coffee right when you wake up because you naturally have a cortisol spike anyways right then. In a way, there's not really a point to it, and it's not doing what you want it to be doing, which is giving you energy when you are naturally at a lull. He believes that you should have coffee or caffeine about two hours after waking up.  

And then by the individual chronotypes, dolphins, the insomniacs, he thinks that you should have your coffee or caffeine, only six ounces no more. Not right upon waking, but, well, he doesn't really talk about fasting, but he says with a meal before 3:00 PM, never after 3:00 PM, the ideal window is between 1:00 to 2:00. Lions like Gin, I'm curious if this would match up with you, Gin. He thinks they should have caffeine between 8:00 to 11:00 in the morning, and then if they need it for an afternoon pick me up between 2:00 and 4:00. Bears between 9:30 and 11:30 or for pick me up between 1:30 and 3:30. Wolves, only between 12:00 and 2:00 and nothing after 2:00. Definitely not six hours before bed. So that's just his thoughts looking at the different chronotypes. If one of those chronotypes really resonates with you and those hours sort of resonate with you, that could be something that you could try out. She's talking about a minimum hours before, after you close your window. I wouldn't do it based on your window. I would do it based on your sleep. Definitely not six hours before bed. That's how I would play with that. What are your thoughts, Gin? 

Gin Stephens: Well, this is just like what I say for everything really. The best time to have coffee is just like the best time to exercise in the best time to have your eating window. It's when it feels right to you. I wake up in the morning I'm not drinking coffee. When you were talking about that, like drinking it for a pick me up kind of thing, I was like, “Well, is that why I'm drinking it? No, I don't need a morning pick me up.” I drink it because I like it. I don't need an afternoon pick me up and I don't need a morning pick me up. I could drink one cup and I could drink five cups and I don't feel different. I'm a fast caffeine metabolizer also, so I don't know if that's a factor there. I probably, just like you, Christie, I'm probably around the 12th hour of my fast when I'm having black coffee too. I just have it. No big deal. That hasn't affected me negatively that I know of. Even though I had black coffee before I went and had my fasted bloodwork because I didn't think about it. My insulin levels were still low, they were still below five. I would like to have that done again, without having coffee just to see. So, it's not affecting my insulin levels to the point that they're high. It's just the time that feels right to me. And I'm a fast caffeine metabolizer and that's when I want to have my coffee.  

I don't drink it all afternoon just because I do think it could interfere with my sleep if I had a late. I don't need an afternoon pick me up because I'm deep in the fasted state by then. Now I will say I used to need an afternoon pick me up before I was a faster, I always had afternoon coffee and I don't feel like it affected my sleep then. But drink your coffee when you want to drink your coffee, Christie. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I would focus more on its relationship to your sleep than all of this.  

Gin Stephens: Yeah. If you feel like it's giving you negative effects, tweak when you're having it or if you're having it. We just had a conversation in the Social Network the other day. I think it was in the 28 Day Fast Start group. Someone was asking about coffee. She feels like it breaks her fast. She's like, “What do I do?” I'm like, “Well, then just experiment without it.” That's really the only thing you can do. We're all so different, if you feel like it's causing you a problem, you've got to be your own study of one.  

Melanie Avalon: Yes, exactly. All right. We have a question from Melody. The subject is “Crossroad on my IF journey.” Melody says, “Okay, guys, I am at a huge crossroads in my IF journey and I need some advice. I have been IFing for the last six months and I absolutely 100% know, this is my forever lifestyle. I love the feeling, I'm finally losing weight, I have more energy and it is just so easy. I am down to one meal a day and that is working great for me most days. The only problem is mommy guilt. Right now, my one meal a day has to be around 2:00 to 3:00. I have tried to push it further because I feel like I need to eat with my family. For that is the time my body says it's time to eat. I've tried eating just a snack to tide me over until dinner which is usually around 6:00, but it's hopeless. I just end up eating a meal full of snacks and then out of guilt, I eat a little dinner with my family even though I'm not hungry.  

Another problem is that IF has changed my cravings in a good way. I want more fresh fruits and veggies, lean meats, like fish and chicken. I want to try Buddha bowls and just eat more healthy all around. I am even for the first time in my life not really wanting pasta all the time. This, by the way, is all the stuff my hubby and 13-year-old son hate. They just want to grill some meat, have some sort of starchy side and maybe if forced a veggie. I just don't want that anymore. I want real flavors. I'm seriously considering giving up eating with my family to enjoy the foods I want and to put my health first. But it makes me feel like a bad mom and wife. I feel so selfish even thinking about this.”  

Gin Stephens: All right, Melody, you're going to get some Gin tough love here. You are absolutely not selfish to take care of yourself and your needs. Sheri and I, in the Life Lessons podcast had an episode called “Self-Care Isn't Selfish.” When you're on an airplane and you're traveling with someone, like maybe a child, and there's a problem and the oxygen masks come down, what do they tell you to do? Put the oxygen mask on yourself first, and then help the people around you. So, I want you to think of it this way. If you can't take care of yourself, you're not going to be able to be a good wife and mom. They don't care what you're eating, they care that you're with them. What I would do is, I would just sit with them while they eat and visit with them. They care about you, not your plate. If they do say to you, anything like trying to be negative about the fact that you're not eating, that’s when you need to just really advocate for yourself and say, “No, I'm here because I want to be with you. I ate earlier.” Just be confident about that. Don't feel like you have to eat the food that they're eating or eat at the same time that they're eating. That's really all I have to say about that. 

Melanie Avalon: I have two thoughts. For the first one about the timing, and being hungry earlier versus later, I wonder if she's actually tried and stuck it out having that later window without trying to make it easier with a snack.  

Gin Stephens: She said she couldn't. Yeah, she said she's tried to push it further, because she said that because I felt like I need to eat with my family. But that is the time my body says it's time to eat. You just wonder if she's really given it time.  

Melanie Avalon: Because she says she's tried eating just a snack to tide her over, hormones related to when we get hungry, adapt based on what we're doing. I just wonder if maybe she thought it was hard and maybe tried it a day or two and then tried with a snack to make it easier. But really, the snack would not allow that hormonal reprogramming to happen. One thing you could try, if you haven't tried it, is like a week of eating with your family. Pushing it back just those few extra hours without a snack to try to tide you over and just see if that happens and just see what you learn. Yeah, you still get hungry earlier or it may be that you actually can change your eating window, which would address that eating window question just like from a time perspective.  

From the perspective about eating, I love, love, love what Gin said. 100% that you are not obligated to change your own personal health decisions and what you're doing for other people. I think there's a lot of brainstorming you could do because I'm assuming that you are the one making the meals for the family. I think there's a lot of brainstorming you could do about making an inclusive meal. So, you like lean meats, like fish and chicken and they grilling meat, you could have lean meat that is grilled that both of you guys could have starchy sides, and maybe a force of veggie, like is there the option A to maybe do a starchy side that you like as well that's a veggie. I don't know what type of veggies you do, but like sweet potatoes or something like that? Or, could you do two sides and have like a starchy side for them and then a veggie that they might pick at what you would eat the large portion of. Can you make these meals that's kind of like a mix and match approach where everybody can find something that they like? I think that that could be a possibility. But ultimately, you're not being selfish, you're not being a bad mom and wife, if anything, this is just my opinion. But if anything, I think creating delicious, healthy meals that are possibly potentially going to be more health supporting and their composition, if anything, I think that is-- it'd be super selfless and amazing to try to create meals that are potentially more health promoting than what you've been creating and put in the time and effort to find a way to make them really delicious. That shows dedication and love that you want to provide your family with the most healthy food and most nourishing food and you want to do it in a way that they really enjoy. I think that you could change this whole thing from a selfish perspective to a labor of love. That makes everybody happy.  

Gin Stephens: Yep, so many options but definitely don't feel guilty. Never feel guilty for taking care of your needs when it comes to feeding your body nutritious food that makes you feel great. You should feel guilty if you're forcing yourself to eat food you don't want at a time you don't want to eat it. That's where the guilt-- [laughs] like, “Why am I not letting myself do what I want to do?” Anyway. 

Melanie Avalon: 100%. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions to the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. If you've been following me, you would have heard my story about the Whole Foods guy. And, yeah, I think that is all of the things. Anything from you, Gin, before we go? 

Gin Stephens: Nope, I think that's it.  

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.  

Gin Stephens: All right, bye.  

Melanie Avalon: Bye.  

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week. 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Oct 03

Episode 233: Melanie’s Zoe Experience, Glucose Highs & Lows, Amenorrhea, Fasting & Menstruation, Lethargy After Eating, Chronotypes, High Cholesterol, Prediabetes, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 233 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!!

Listener Q&A: Melanie - Fasted Blood Donation

Listener Q&A: Jess - Where's My Period?

Women and Fasting: Does Fasting Affect Your Cycle?

Listener Q&A: Kim - Lethargic After Breaking Fast

The Power of When: Discover Your Chronotype - and the Best Time to Eat Lunch, Ask for a Raise, Have Sex, Write a Novel, Take Your Meds, and More (Michael Breus)

Chronotype Quiz

Listener Q&A: Megan - Question For A Friend Who Is At A Healthy Weight But Has High Cholesterol And Is Pre-Diabetic

Effects of Intermittent Fasting on Health, Aging, and Disease

Clinical Management of Intermittent Fasting in Patients with Diabetes Mellitus

Stay Up To Date With All The News And Pre-Order Info About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 233 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare and makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body.

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 233 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Doing great. How about you? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I have ZOE updates.

Gin Stephens: Very cool. I've also been just wearing the-- What is it?

Melanie Avalon: CGM?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, the CGM from, I was trying to think of the company--

Melanie Avalon: Levels.



Gin Stephens: Levels. Yeah, I couldn't think of Levels. I could think of a CGM, but I couldn't think of Levels. I've been wearing the CGM from Levels. Man, it's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: What have you learned? What have you found?

Gin Stephens: Well, I can absolutely feel when my blood sugar goes down during the fast.

Melanie Avalon: Crashes.

Gin Stephens: Not crashes. I wouldn't call it crashing. It doesn't ever feel like it crashes but I can absolutely feel when my blood sugar gets down into the 70s. I wake up in the morning, I drink my coffee, my blood sugar sticks around in a certain range. And then around 1 to 2 o'clock, I have a wave of hunger. And that is exactly when my blood sugar goes down into the 70s.

Melanie Avalon: That's interesting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's not hunger that's shaky hunger. It's really easy to ignore. Any intermittent faster are out there has felt that before, but I just ignore it. And then, for the entire rest of the time that I'm fasting, I stay very solidly in the 70s. It doesn't go up and down a lot after I get that shift. It's like I can feel the metabolic switch, and then my body is just well fueled, and my blood sugar stays very constant. It's fascinating.

When I did ZOE, I had longer windows, the muffin day and all of that. Also, I was using the little-- it was different versus the way Levels does with syncing with your phone. It wasn't as easy to really see the data when I did ZOE. But with Levels, it's just been fascinating. I can just go in the fasted state and stick right there in the 70s.

And then, it's also fascinating to see what I eat, and how my blood glucose responds. One night I opened with-- Well, it was higher carb, but low fat. I ended up just-- I didn’t mean to, it just happened to be the meal that I had that night, ended up being a very high carb, low fat, not a lot of protein. My blood sugar went crazy. It went up so high. I can't remember the exact number, but the spike was like oop. As long as I eat a mixed meal, fat, carbs, protein, it's steady. I have a biphasic response, which I read on Levels is a good thing. One little raise, then down, then up and down again. But fascinating. I've got to have sufficient protein and fat along with carbs to keep it steady. I knew that, but it's good to see it.

Melanie Avalon: Is this your first time wearing it with Levels, like a company that lets you see it all?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: So, now you understand my obsession?

Gin Stephens: Well, and then I actually took it off [laughs] because I was like, “Alright, that's enough.” I took it off. I didn't need to see it for long.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, how long?

Gin Stephens: I don't know. Not that long, but it was enough. A week maybe, it was enough for me to really see. I'm so in tune with how I feel that none of it surprised me, but it was so interesting to see it.

Melanie Avalon: Another question. Do you see the intense morning spike?

Gin Stephens: I wouldn't call it intense. No.

Melanie Avalon: Just because I know we get a lot of questions from listeners about high morning blood sugar and when I wear mine, mine spike's to about 120.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, mind doesn't do that. Oh gosh, no. I never get out of the 90s until after my windows open.

Melanie Avalon: Interesting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm always in the-- overnight, it does different things. And that was one reason I took it off just from the sleeping and I also was getting a massage the next day. I was like, “A massage therapist is going to have to work around this,” because I got a massage when I was wearing it for ZOE and she couldn't really work on that arm very well. So, I took it off. I mean, it was not a big deal. I learned what I needed to learn, basically. But, yeah, my blood glucose stays around in the 90s all throughout the morning with my coffee. Down into the 80s some, up into the 90s. But it never went over 100, unless it was right after I'd just eaten.

Melanie Avalon: Mine goes up every morning, but then it goes down consistently. What's interesting is I'm the exact opposite of you. I feel hungry when I get those spikes, and then when it starts going down is when my hunger kind of goes down.

Gin Stephens: Well, I get the hunger, I think, right when it hits the down, and then the hunger wave is gone and it stays down. It's just fascinating to see. Again, I learned from ZOE that I don't have a great blood glucose response to too much blood glucose at one time, which I proved with that meal. The ZOE data, when I would get scores for the meals, the ones that gave me a good score were the ones that were a combination of carbs with sufficient fat.

Melanie Avalon: And my comment about that, I'm just so excited about all of this, just for listeners, I think an important takeaway, because they might hear that and think that for them, that's what would work best but we're all different. For me, I'm the best when I do high carb, low fat, but if I combine, then it does not do well on my CGM.

Gin Stephens: If you have high carb, low fat, your blood sugar is great?

Melanie Avalon: If I do high carb, low fat, it spikes after the meal which is anticipated normal.

Gin Stephens: How much does it spike?

Melanie Avalon: It really depends on the night, but before eating, it'll be in the 80s. And then a low spike, it might be like 120 or a high spike it might go to 140.

Gin Stephens: Okay, see, mine went to 172. That day, I had low fat by accident, and I didn't realize that till I went back and looked at the meal. It was rice and dates and carrots and kale. I didn't add anything to it. It didn't have any beans, it didn't have very much fat at all. My blood sugar went berserk. But even the next night, I had a blueberry biscuit. It was not the least but low carb or low fat and my blood sugar was beautiful. It's fascinating. Now with ZOE, I learned that I can't have too much fat, that backs up to, I don't clear fat quickly. So really, for me, I should not over consume. If I eat too much food, that was when my ZOE score would go down using their data. I would have a beautiful meal that would score in the 90s. And then, if I ate too much again too soon with too much fat, it would plummet my score.

Melanie Avalon: Well, you know what's interesting, I don't know if that would be the case if I did high carb low fat with starches. The times it has spiked, I had starches in it. The carbs I'm eating are all from fruit. But, yeah, it doesn't really go over 140 and then it goes down and then it stays down.

Gin Stephens: Mine were very starchy. But when I had very starchy carbs the other days with plenty of fat and also protein, I didn't have that huge spike.

Melanie Avalon: The thing I learned last night, I was actually thinking about it this morning looking at the CGM was, I usually drink a glass of wine every night, but if I drink more wine-- last night, I had a wine night with a friend on the phone and it was four hours. We drink a lot of wine over four hours. My blood sugar response is so much better if I have a big alcohol preload, and my theory is that it just completely depletes glycogen. That's my theory. There's been studies on wine and insulin sensitivity, so probably helps with that. But, yeah, probably my best blood sugar response is when I have more than a glass of wine before eating.

Gin Stephens: That's fascinating. It just shows we're so different. The next day, other than that one day where my blood sugar went crazy after the low fat, high carb meal, I would not say any of my meals were low carb at all like I said, and I had rice again, it wasn't like that's the only time I had rice. For me, it really seems to be that combination of the carbs, plus the fat, plus the protein keep me steady, and it makes sense when you think about how it flows, how it gets into your bloodstream, flows digestion.

Melanie Avalon: Gin, I haven't done the second day of muffins yet.

Gin Stephens: You're supposed to do on the next day.

Melanie Avalon: You don't have to. I've been chatting with the help people.

Gin Stephens: Okay. All right.

Melanie Avalon: I think it'll be more telling if I don't do them back-to-back. For listeners who are not familiar, ZOE is a program, scientific study.

Gin Stephens: It really is. It's a study, program, all of that.

Melanie Avalon: Because I've been making posts about it. I'm like, “What do I call it?” It's an experience, where you learn about yourself. In any case, it is created by Tim Spector. He's a professor of genetic epidemiology, but he's an expert in personalized medicine and the gut microbiome. And they also have doctors as well creating the program. Basically, what happens is you get these special created muffins that feature different calorie and macronutrient breakdowns, and you eat them and you do a certain amount of fasting after eating them. If you're in the study portion of it, which is optional, you're wearing a CGM, either way you do a finger prick blood test. And it evaluates how you process carbs and fat, and you also do a gut microbiome stool sample, which is really cool, but it's just so funny because-- and Gin already knows this, oh, my gosh, the muffin. So, people talk about the muffins how they don't taste very good. I was looking at the ingredients before taking it and I was like this is just going to light up every dopamine center in my brain. I just know it. And literally, it was like the most amazing thing I've ever tasted.

Gin Stephens: I've never heard anyone say that about the muffins, like ever, which is hilarious.

Melanie Avalon: I've been asking on my Facebook group, and there have been a few people like me, and it's all people who are really intense and don't eat processed foods ever. The birds were singing, I was like, “This feels like cocaine.” I mean, I don't know what cocaine feels like.

Gin Stephens: I was like, “This is disgusting.” I was so excited to have muffins, and these taste so bad. These are the most disappointing muffins. I guess that's the key that you have not had anything like that whereas I'm not interested in any of that because I want a good muffin.

Melanie Avalon: I did a poll on my Facebook group, and it was pretty clear. If you eat processed foods even just a little bit, then you're more likely to not like the muffins. If you don't eat processed foods, you're more likely to like the muffins. But then, the funny thing and this was so interesting, and I learned so much about it about myself and fasting, was you have to fast after the first set of muffins for four hours. Gin and I, we fast every single day. Those four hours were so difficult. Having fasting right after eating something that crashes your blood sugar is so hard.

Gin Stephens: That was the hardest part for me, too, the time in between, muffin meal one and it was muffin meal two. We had muffins again, yeah, that was the hardest of all, because I'm not used to being hungry in my eating window. Once I open my eating window, if I'm hungry, I eat something. I would never open my eating window if it was something weird, and then fight through terrible hunger for four hours.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It gave me so much empathy, because I think I forget-- because we get so many questions about people who are really nervous about starting fasting, and they think they're going to be miserably hungry, and it's just nice to remember, oh, this is the baseline that they're probably coming from. They're used to eating and then it being really, really hard to fast. If they're thinking fasting is like that, fasting would be really miserable. It definitely took me back to my pre-fasting days and made me so grateful that I am not living like that, from blood sugar swing to blood sugar swing. And then, you're supposed to do a second day but I was like, “I can't do these two days in a row.” They said I could do it a different day, and I do think that'll be more telling because it'll give me more time to really be at baseline. I'll be coming from my true self with my blood sugar response, I think. But interviewing Tim was amazing.

Gin Stephens: You see why I love him so much.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He was so intelligent and kind and very nuanced. I asked him a lot of questions because a lot of our audience is low carb or keto. We've been getting some feedback that sometimes people don't tolerate fat so well. So, the impression that might be given from the app is that they need to go low fat, which makes sense. But I've been thinking that maybe if they don't process fats, well, ironically, that low carb might be a better approach, which would ironically be high fat. I was able to talk to him about all of that. He agreed, and he said that basically right now the way it's set up-- he said ideally he wants to have another arm of it that is tailored towards keto people, because I also asked about the false-- I don't know if we have false positive or false negative. People who are doing a low carb diet, when they do the muffins, they might have a temporary insulin resistance that is created from having been low carb, which is temporary, but I think that could skew the results. He was saying that they've been thinking about that and do they need to tell people who are doing low carb to do a few days before of higher carbs? Or should they have an arm of it that's low carb? It was a really, really nice discussion, and I walked away from it--

Before, I was a little bit-- I don't know if I was skeptical, but I was curious about things I've been hearing from my audience but now I feel pretty good. I'm really encouraging listeners to do it because he says they really need to get a lot of people to do it so that they can continue to learn and then in the future, maybe expand it to do things like that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. That's why I'm such a fan of him. Just when you read his books, which you've read them, when you read his books, you realize, “Okay, this guy's impressive.” And then you see the work they're doing with the PREDICT studies, and you're like, “Okay, this is amazing,” and it's new, and then they're changing. What you're going through is a little different than when I did it whenever that was last year. They're constantly evolving, which science is supposed to do, that's what scientists do. But you said that you felt it was steering people towards low fat, mine absolutely did not steer me towards low fat. I got higher scores when I combined carbs and fat, but it was just if I kept eating more fat, then the score would go down. It was when I overdid the fat. If I had, I don't know, let's just say a piece of whole grain toast, my score would be low. But if I put an egg on top and some avocado, my score would go up, and it would be higher. You haven't gotten to that point yet.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm just going off of what people have said in my group and I haven't received any information yet. So, I can't really speak. I don't know what it looks like the scores.

Gin Stephens: It absolutely did not steer me to low fat. But it did, because my scores would go up as I would add fat, but then there would come a point that it was too much fat and the score would go down.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really curious to see what mine is. And also, oh my gosh, the blood finger prick.

Gin Stephens: That was intense.

Melanie Avalon: I prick my finger all the time, because I check my blood glucose with a glucometer often. So, I was thinking the lancet was-- I was thinking it was like the one I normally use, which is like a really, really tiny prick.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I told you it was different.

Melanie Avalon: You had said it was hard for you, and I'd asked in my group and people had said it was difficult. I was like, “Well, I better just really jab this thing into my finger.” And I didn't realize it's a different lancet that is made to get a lot of blood out. I mean, blood was spewing everywhere. I was like, “What if I faint?” [laughs] For a second, I literally was like, “What if it just keeps bleeding?”

Gin Stephens: So, you really went for it?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, it was not a problem filling that card.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I was like squeezing, squeezing, squeezing, trying to get it all out. But I did, but it was not flowing.

Melanie Avalon: I was doing it at 2 AM. [laughs] So, yeah, it's been a really cool experience. The feedback has been mixed, for sure, in my group, but a lot of people have said that it's been interestingly game changing for them to lose weight.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I've heard that too. I interviewed someone for Intermittent Fasting Stories, who shares her story. I don't know when her episode comes out, Christie Osborne, but it was game changing for her. It's just a matter of, not everyone likes what they find out. I've also heard that people were mad about what they found out. I'm like, “Well you can't be mad that you don't like what you learn.” I don't like to know that my body doesn't clear glucose quickly or fat quickly. I'm not thrilled, but it's not their fault. They just shared that with me, or whatever is in my gut microbiome, knowledge is power and once you know, then you're equipped to deal with it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Day two of muffins, I'm doing Tuesday.

Gin Stephens: Well, enjoy.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you.

Gin Stephens: I don’t know if y'all can hear somebody out is outside doing like a weed eat or blower, so if you hear something that sounds like equipment, that's what it is.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I can't hear it.

Gin Stephens: Good. It's the weekend and neighbors are doing their yard work. Or it could be Chad, I don't know. Someone's out there doing yard work.

Melanie Avalon: It sounds good.

Gin Stephens: Okay, good.

Melanie Avalon: And then one last thing, just a quick announcement for listeners. Well, I'm going to be interviewing Robb Wolf on this show. I am so excited. You guys know I'm such a Robb Wolf fan girl. So, this will be my third time interviewing him, which is very nice. He is the force behind The Paleo Solution, which is the reason that I started the paleo diet. He also wrote Wired to Eat, which appropriately enough is about people's individual blood sugar response to carbs. That's the main thing it's about. And then he wrote Sacred Cow about regenerative agriculture. And he's also one of the creators of LMNT electrolytes, which we talked about all the time on the show, which our listeners love. By the way, you can get a free sample pack at drinklmnt.com. That's LMNT dotcom slash ifpodcast.

He's going to come on the show, and I'm trying to decide if I'm going to make it just me interviewing him. But I think I'd like to include listener questions. So, if you have any questions about electrolytes while fasting, now is the time, email those. Also, if you want to ask him anything else, feel free to email as well.

Gin Stephens: Do it quickly because you only have like a week before-- and I'm actually not going to be on that interview. I've got something going on that day. And also, it's so much easier to interview with one person instead of two people trying to interfere. So, Melanie's going to handle that one without me, but get the questions in.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Email them right now. Anything fasting, electrolytes, regenerative agriculture, or if you just want to ask Robb something.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. I want to take a minute to tell you about Prep Dish and what they have going on for you this summer. Summer is my favorite season, and I'm sure that you've heard me say that before. But one thing about summer is that we are busy. That's why I'm so excited to tell you about the free Bonus Menu Prep Dish is offering this month, and it's only good through the end of June. If you're a regular listener, I'm sure you're familiar with their new Super Fast Menus. If you thought prepping five healthy dinners in just an hour was the best it could get somehow, they're upping their game. Just for the month of June, Prep Dish is offering all new subscribers a free bonus menu. It's not just your average meal plan though. It's designed to let you prep five healthy dinners in just 30 minutes. It seriously doesn't get any easier than that.

Don't worry, just because the meals come together quickly, that doesn't mean you'll be missing out on flavor. The Bonus Menu includes things like California burgers with berry salad, shrimp tostadas, and a slow cooker Italian pork. When you subscribe, you'll have access to the gluten-free, paleo, keto and the Super Fast menu, in addition to the Bonus Menu. If you're still not convinced, remember that you get a two-week free trial if you go to prepdish.com/ifpodcast so you can try the meals out yourself before you commit. Again, that's prepdish.com/ifpodcast for two weeks free, and for the month of June anyone who signs up gets the fastest meal plan ever bonus. Now, back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Shall we go to some of our listener questions?

Gin Stephens: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: The first thing is actually some listener feedback, and it comes from another Melanie. Oh, my goodness. The subject is “Fasted blood donation,” and Melanie says, “Hey, ladies, I am a regular podcast listener to all of your shows. Thank you for all of your very useful information and easy to apply tips and tricks. I was just listening to Episode 229, and the question came up about blood donating fasted. I'm an RN and a hematology-oncology clinic. We give lots of patients lots of blood. Thank you to all of those wanting to and able to donate blood. Since COVID, there has been a sharp decrease in the blood supply and every unit helps.

I've been an intermittent faster for four years and I've been donating blood for many years. I've never had any issues with donating, so I donate fasted. I do drink a large amount of water throughout the day to keep from getting dehydrated, and therefore preventing low blood pressure. I also make sure to eat a very good meal when my regularly scheduled window opens. All that being said, that is what works for me. I would not recommend a new intermittent faster donate fasted or a new donor to donate fasted. I hope this helps and maybe it will encourage others to donate blood even if it means they open their windows a little early. Happy fasting, Melanie."

Gin Stephens: Awesome. It's always good to hear straight from the expert.

Melanie Avalon: I really liked what Melanie said. We didn't really touch on this last time about how appreciated it is for people to donate blood. But it sounds like if you're new to donating blood, probably don't do it fasted the first time, maybe do it at least once not fasted. I would just faint either way. Shall we go into our questions?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. We have a question from Jess. The subject is, “Where's my period?” Jess says, “Hello, ladies. I recently discovered your podcast and binged three episodes in one go on a long walk. I love it. Thank you for all you do. I started IF at the end of last year and followed a 16:8 rhythm for about six months. I would eat breakfast at 10:00, lunch around midday and dinner at 6:00. This worked really well for me. I lost weight, felt healthy, had so much more free time in the evenings and never felt hungry. About a month ago, I decided to try extending my fast to 18 hours and now eat two meals a day at around midday and between 6:00 to 7:00 PM. I've continued to see results and feel good. A little hungry in the run up to lunch, but I'm getting used to it.

This month, my period arrived on time, but it was extremely light and then gone the next day. I haven't changed anything else in my routine. My diet is the same, usual amount of exercise and sleep. I have suffered with PCOS for around six years. But since coming off the pill two years and two months ago, I've actually still had a regular cycle, my period is always between four and seven days. I've told myself to chill because it's only one month and I might be back to normal next month. But I am worried because I'm hoping to start a family next year and don't want to be causing any unseen damage. After a bit of googling, I've seen a few articles linking disrupted menstruation with IF, and wondered if you had any insights. The two might not be linked at all, it's just that the extension of my fast is the only change I've made recently. I consider my diet to be healthy, I would label it as low carb, high fat and mostly organic. Hope you can help, and thanks again for your wonderful work. I don't use Facebook. So, I'm unable to join your groups. However, I'm now a very happy subscriber of the podcast and look forward to going back through the library of episodes. Jess.”

Gin Stephens: Jess, thank you for asking that question. You're right. You can find a lot of stuff when you're googling that talks about disrupting menstruation with women. I think it's really key to keep in mind that we know that over-restrictive dieting in general affects women's cycles. Are there women who do intermittent fasting in an overly restricted way? Yes. Would that be likely to lead to menstrual disruptions? Yes. It doesn't sound like you are doing an overly restrictive approach however, because 18 hours is really not extensive. Now, if you had just gone to 23:1 and you eating a one-hour window, that might be a too much restriction. But it sounds like you're eating two meals a day in an 18-hour fast with a 6-hour eating window, I would not think that you're overly restrictive. You haven't missed a period, so I wouldn't be too worried right now. If you start missing periods, then I would go see your doctors, get your hormones checked out, see what's going on with that because it's hard for us to know. I mean, maybe you're eating two really tiny meals. I don't know, for me a meal is substantial. I know it is for Melanie as well.

There's a great article, but it's a blog post that I want you to look for. If you google "women and fasting, does fasting affect your cycle," it's on The Fasting Method website. It talks about the experiences that they've had with women, and it's actually was written by Megan Ramos, although for some reason at the top, it says by Jason Fung, but this is clearly written by Megan Ramos. That says like, “Many of the women I've worked with, I was scared to fast at first without knowing how it affected my fertility.” It's clearly Megan Ramos wrote it even though it says Jason Fung at the top. Look for women and fasting, does fasting affect your cycle, and read that and see what Megan Ramos says about it, because they've worked with a lot of women in their practice. Spoiler alert, they find that often, at first, they'll see disruptions and then they'll find that women's cycles are actually more regular than they had been before. Again though, you're a study of one, so you'll only know by seeing what happens for you. It could be a coincidence. Going from 16 to 18 is not a big change. I would be really shocked that you've gone to over-restriction just with the two-hour increase in your fast. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I thought that was great. For listeners, we will put a link in the show notes to that article to make it easy to find, and the show notes are at ifpodcast.com/episode233. Yeah, I agree. I was going to say, it's hard to know, if it's just adjusting and changing, or if it's a sign that it actually is going away. I would give it a few more months and see what happens. And if it does go away-- I mean, it sounds like you were really happy with your earlier approach because she said she was on a 16:8, worked really well, she lost weight, she felt healthy, she had free time, she never felt hungry. If it does turn out to be a thing where your period goes away, I see nothing wrong with going back to what you were doing, which sounded like it was working really well. If you're worried about not getting quite as many benefits because of those extra two hours, I really wouldn't sweat it. I would do the pattern that is really working for you. So, yeah, I like what Gin said.

Gin Stephens: It's too soon to really know. You didn't skip your period like you said, it was just really light. Since Jess says she wants to start a family, I assume she's nowhere near the perimenopausal phase, because that's when everything starts to go wacky no matter what you're doing. [laughs] But I don't think that would be applying to Jess, but anybody who's in their 40s and beyond, get ready. [laughs] It's a bumpy ride.

Melanie Avalon: Goodness.

Gin Stephens: You'll see, yep.

Melanie Avalon: Feel free to let us know, Jess.

Gin Stephens: Oh, definitely. I would love to have a follow-up on that.

Melanie Avalon: Me too.

Gin Stephens: All right, so we have an email from Kim and the subject is “Lethargic after breaking fast.” Kim says, “Hi, Melanie, and Gin. Thank you so much for this podcast. You are both truly inspiring. I've lost 74 pounds after doing IVF for about a year.” And I just want to stop and say, amazing, Kim. That's fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: How many pounds, like, every-- 365?

Gin Stephens: I mean, a pound a week is “average.” So, 52 would be more typical. 74 is amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Wow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Kim goes on to say, “I am currently listening to Episode 84. So, I apologize if this question has been asked before. On occasion, I have noticed that if I break my fast a couple of hours early, I get completely lethargic like I desperately have to take a nap. I usually break my fast around 6:30 PM and close my window by 9:30 PM. However, I notice that if I broke my fast a couple of hours earlier, I get so tired. I, for the most part, eat whole foods and balance my meals with protein, vegetables, healthy fats and carbohydrates.” Me too, Kim, that sounds a lot like how I eat. “My question is what are some reasons as to why you would get so lethargic after breaking your fast. What are some ways to fix this? Thank you so much for what you do.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Kim, great question. We have answered things like this before, but what 233 episodes, I thought we haven't answered this in a while. Obviously, there could be a lot of potential things going on, but two things are coming to mind for me personally. One of the reasons I personally love having an evening eating window is it does make me tired. During the day, I'm awake, I'm alert, I'm active, and then when I eat, that's my wine downtime, and the actual eating process tends to be a parasympathetic state, it's called rest and digest for a reason. So, it can be completely normal to get tired after eating. I think a reason that you might find yourself getting tired earlier, when you break fast earlier, when maybe in the past before fasting you didn't experience that would be because it's possible that you have conditioned your body with intermittent fasting, because you do have an evening window. Now, the signaling that your body is used to, is when you eat, that's you're wind down, go to bed, get ready for bed time. So, it's like an association that your body has made. Now when you eat earlier, it gets that started. Whereas in the past before you had this evening eating window, your body was actually used to eating earlier and so it was used to not getting “tired.” They're called-- how do you say it, zeitgebers?

Gin Stephens: Oh, I don't know. I don't know that word.

Melanie Avalon: Zeitgebers, I think. It's a German word. It means cues to your-- it's like using your environment that signal things to your biology. The definition is a rhythmically occurring natural phenomenon, which acts as a cue in the regulation of the body's circadian rhythms. Food and eating are very, very powerful zeitgebers. Light is another one. Basically, what has happened, I think, is that you have made food into a zeitgeber that tells your body to wind down. And so, now when you eat earlier, that happens. Another potential option or explanation behind this, is I've actually been diving really deep into Dr. Michael Breus’s work. He wrote The Power of When. And he's the one who came up with the chronotypes, like the dolphin, the lion, the wolf, and the bear, because I'm going to be interviewing him which is very exciting.

Gin Stephens: Very cool.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm so excited. And he has a new book coming out called Energize! which actually talks about the chronotypes for sleep combined with your metabolism type, if you're a fast, medium, or slow metabolism, that's a pretty cool book. He talks about how different chronotypes get tired naturally with their circadian rhythm during different times of the day. If you are a bear chronotype, which is the most common chronotype, it's actually very normal to need an afternoon nap. What I think might happen-- and I don't know, Kim, if you're a bear, but I think what might happen for people who are bears, for example, they would be used to needing a nap during the middle of the afternoon and then normal eating pattern that would probably be after they ate, that's just me theorizing. But if they switch to an intermittent fasting pattern where they're eating later, now they're going to be stimulated during the day, and they're going to be alert, and they're going to probably not get as tired during that time when they naturally would have a dip because they're not having the meal or the snack that is encouraging that. So, it could be that you actually naturally were getting tired during that time. But now you only realize it when you have something that really powerfully stimulates it, like eating. But if you're curious, you can take his chronotype quiz on his website. We can put a link to it in the show notes and you can figure out what chronotype you are.

Something I love about it is, I'm a dolphin, which is the resident insomniac, and dolphins are never supposed to take naps, which is what I've always said. If I take a nap, I just feel like I'll never sleep again. And he says so many times, he's like, “Dolphins do not take naps, not allowed to take naps.” I love that.

As far as suggestions for how to fix it. I actually don't really have a suggestion. My biggest suggestion would be when you have that earlier meal, are you having a huge meal? Are you normally having a huge meal between 6:30 and 9:30, which you probably are, if you're only eating for three hours every day. So, if you have to eat earlier, you might be able to mitigate that by not having that earlier meal is huge. Different foods might make you feel a certain way. Like for me, like protein makes me feel tired. It's more to digest. If I were to have a lighter meal, like if I were to have a lighter salad early in the day, I probably would not get super tired compared to if I ate my normal meal of pounds of meat, I would probably get tired. Yeah, that was a lot of thoughts. Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: I just had to look back in my email to remember what I was. I'm a lion. Is that what we decided that I was?

Melanie Avalon: You are 100% a lion.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm so much a lion.

Melanie Avalon: You're such a lion.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Yeah, I'm a lion. I thought that was interesting. That was interesting thought to think that might be related to her chronotype. So, yeah, because it doesn't seem like she's just tired at 6:30 when she eats as if she eats earlier. Fascinating. Yeah, I think you said it all, honestly. As you mentioned, I'm never as alert after opening my window as I was before. But the fact that she doesn't feel it is pronounced when she opens at 6:30 if she does when she opens it earlier, is the part that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: That's one of the amazing things though that I really love about having an evening meal is, I can use it as that zeitgeber, if I'm saying it right. Basically, it makes me tired every night, even if I would otherwise be a little bit more wired that night. It's a consistent signal, especially if you struggle with insomnia or something like that. Having a consistent eating rhythm is really powerful for regulating your sleep rhythm. So, I can pretty much get my body to shut down every night with my one meal a day. And like I said, being a resident insomniac dolphin, that's really important to me.

Gin Stephens: I also wonder if it has to do with, that she's eating earlier in her fast, and maybe she hasn't fully switched over to-- I don't know, it could have something to do with her blood glucose and ketosis and the fact that she's not as fasted.

Melanie Avalon: It could be a lot of things.

Gin Stephens: Or maybe if she opens earlier, it's a different a thing. If I open earlier, like way earlier than normal, it's usually because there's a special event and I'm eating at a restaurant, and it's something that I don't usually eat and more heavy food. So, that could also be a factor.

Melanie Avalon: I think the biggest question would be before intermittent fasting, if you ate earlier, would you get tired? If you did, then actually nothing has changed. If you didn't, I think it's because food has become a signal for your body to sleep. Yeah, and/or you're eating now a bigger meal earlier, whereas before you weren't because you were eating throughout the day. So, yes. But yeah, if you eat light, that might fix it.

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Shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's go on.

Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Meghan. The subject is “Question for a friend who is at a healthy weight but has high cholesterol and is prediabetic.” Meghan says, “Hi, I'm Melanie and Gin. Thank you so much for all of the work you put into your podcast. First, I will tell you briefly what brought me here. I gave up wheat last month when I started getting heartburn or reflux every time I had bread or pasta. I then learned about intermittent fasting and started doing that as well. I have quite a bit of weight to lose. I started at 236 pounds, and I want to be around 135. In the past month, I have done clean fast with plain tea and water only. I eat healthy food during my eating window between two to five hours depending on my appetite each day. I have lost 16 pounds so far, yay.

My question today is for a friend. We got together yesterday. She's very slim, but she told me her doctor told her she has very high cholesterol and she is prediabetic. Her A1c is 6.2. Do you know of any journal articles that specifically address the effects of intermittent fasting for someone who is already a healthy weight, but has these health concerns? Since I just started listening to your podcast, I am only on episode 24. I definitely have a way to go to get caught up. Thank you so much for all you do. Megan.”

Gin Stephens: That is a great question. First of all, I want to say, Megan, hooray, I'm so excited for you. You're doing great. You've only been doing intermittent fasting for about a month and you're down 16 pounds. That is a-mazing.

Your friend, if her A1c is 6.2, high cholesterol, prediabetic, you're right, yeah, there's some things she can do to bring down that A1c, work on her overall health. And I do think that intermittent fasting would be a great choice for her. The very best article for anybody who wants to do intermittent fasting for health purposes and not for weight loss, is from the New England Journal of Medicine. The title of it is Effects of Intermittent Fasting on Health, Aging and Disease. And Mark Mattson is one of the authors. It's the one that came out on December 26th of 2019, and really changed a conversation from everyone saying, “Yeah, intermittent fasting for weight loss,” to, “Oh, intermittent fasting for health benefits.” That article really goes through the research and talks about all the things that intermittent fasting can help with. Being prediabetic, that would be one of the things on the list. So, I would recommend that.

You have to register for a New England Journal of Medicine free account to access it, but they're not going to spam you with stuff. You have to put in your email address and register, but it's worth it. You can download the article in PDF form and have a copy to read. So, I would highly recommend anybody who is interested in intermittent fasting for health benefits, if you want to see what all the different health benefits are, they did a great job putting it all together for this article because it's a review article that has all the different publications, all the different things that intermittent fasting can do for you. All in there, categorized, all the research is there. You can go down the rabbit hole of finding all of it. That's what I would do.

Melanie Avalon: I thought that was a great suggestion. A framework to consider about everything, one, is that I think we often assume that you have to be overweight to have health conditions, or maybe more likely, on the flip side, that if you're thin, that you won't have certain health conditions.

Gin Stephens: Can I pop in with a personal story real quick?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: They often consider Alzheimer's to be type 3 diabetes, high levels of insulin in the brain. Chad's aunt had early-onset Alzheimer's, and she was very, very thin, but she always ate, had Coke and candy bars, and I'm certain her blood sugar was nuts. And she had early-onset Alzheimer's and was thin. She probably could have benefited from some fasting.

Melanie Avalon: I agree. To that point, weight often correlates to health issues, but it doesn't necessarily, and actually, like the Asian population, for example, they tend to be thinner, but they're more prone metabolically to having issues with things like diabetes and blood sugar regulation. A reasoning for it that can happen is that basically, it has to do with energy toxicity and based on your genes, your fat cells may be predisposed to either when they become full, split in half and create a new fat cell. Basically, it becomes really easy to gain weight, because you keep creating new fat cells, and then you keep getting bigger and bigger. While that looks like a problem because you're gaining weight, it's actually protecting you because those fat cells are creating a bank for all of that excess energy coming in. It pushes off until a little bit later getting the diabetic issues, compared to people whose fat cells are not accustomed to doing that genetically, so they don't split and form new fat cells.

What happens in that case is people don't gain the weight that you would expect from excess energy consumption. Instead, it creates a buildup of fuel in the bloodstream, because you don't have fat cells to take in that excess energy, and so stuff is just building up in the bloodstream. The blood sugar is taking too long in the bloodstream, creating diabetes, glycating your red blood cells, which is what your A1C is looking at. Ironically, you can be very slim and actually more predisposed to having blood sugar regulation issues. Yeah, that's something to consider.

I'm also going to link in the show notes to a study called Clinical Management of Intermittent Fasting in Patients with Diabetes. It basically just talks about how intermittent fasting is a viable method for people to manage diabetes, and that's not dependent on them being overweight to start. One of the things to consider is that even if the studies are in overweight patients, I know people can make the argument that if there's a study on overweight patients with intermittent fasting, and they see health benefits, people will make the argument that, “Oh, the health benefits were just because they lost weight, not from the fasting specifically.” I think there's enough literature, like the one that Gin just mentioned, but just in general, in patients who are not overweight seeing health benefits. So, I would not be concerned about that you have to be overweight to experience the health benefits of intermittent fasting.

This could be something great for your friend, I think, especially since, yes, prediabetic, A1c 6.2 and very high cholesterol, this could be something to definitely, definitely try. I will just make a note about the cholesterol is that when people-- Well, you know what? This is something I actually wonder. Gin, I’d be curious about your thoughts on this. A lot of people who are overweight and do intermittent fasting often see a transient increase in cholesterol due to the weight loss, but if it's a situation where she doesn't actually need to lose weight from the intermittent fasting, I wonder if there's a potential of seeing that boost in cholesterol or if it might just address it from the beginning. Does that make sense?

Gin Stephens: It does. Even though someone doesn't “need" to lose weight, they still might lose some. When Chad started intermittent fasting for the health benefits, he did lose some weight. He did not need to, but he got slimmer than he already was. And then he stopped, he didn't just keep losing weight until he wasted away to nothingness. [laughs] He lost some weight and then stabilized at a weight that was lower than he had been but he's still healthy, so he lost some fat.

Melanie Avalon: That's a great point. My initial response was she might see a boost in cholesterol, but I feel that happens the-- I don't know, but I feel that happens to most when people lose a lot of weight in the beginning.

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah, because as you're losing the fat, it ends up in your bloodstream, and so that shows up on your cholesterol test. That's why it's transient as part of the weight loss process. But it's hard to know. Just depends on what your body is doing. It wouldn't be only happening in people who were overweight. It could be someone who doesn't need to lose weight, but they're also releasing some fat.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Great question. We will put links like I said to everything in the show notes at ifpodcast.com/episode233. Yeah, I don't think we have time for any more questions. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can also follow us on Instagram. I'm @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. A plug again to send us questions for Robb Wolf. Oh, and I just have to keep plugging, listeners, if you'd like to get my new Serrapeptase supplement, you can get on my email list for that at melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase. Yeah, I think that is all of the things. Anything else, Gin, from you before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it. I can't wait to hear about your second muffin experience to see if it's just as delicious, the second. I'm still laughing at that, that you love the muffin.

Melanie Avalon: I'm both dreading and dreaming about it.

Gin Stephens: I shared it with the moderators that also have gone through so, I'm like, “Oh my God, Melanie loved them off.” And they're like, “What?” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: The most amazing thing. Another reason, I think it's going to be perfect to do it this week, is I have to get a colonoscopy this week. It's like a built-in just clean out the system after the muffin craziness.

Gin Stephens: Keep us posted.

Melanie Avalon: I will. All right, well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

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