Category Archives for "Intermittent Fasting"

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The Oldest Cure in the World: Adventures in the Art and Science of Fasting

Welcome to Episode 315 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

1:10 - NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
Free Dietitian Support At Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

3:50 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

10:05 - The Research That Went Into The Book

13:00 - Steve's Personal Story

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #87 - Dr. Alan Goldhamer

18:00 - Dr. Henry Tanner, The Father Of Fasting

25:55 - Why Don't Doctors Believe In The Power Of Fasting?

31:20 - Heroic Medicine

35:15 - Historical Theories About Endogenous Energy Sources During Fasting

37:30 - Why Didn't People Notice It Was Fat That Was Being Burnt For Energy?

39:30 - Fasting In Greek History

45:45 - Fasting In Religion

49:10 - Women Taking On The Role Of Fasting

55:10 - catherine of siena

54:00 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

55:00 - The Oppression Of Women Through Diet Control

1:00:45 - Jainism

1:04:50 - The Loss Of Fasting In Christianity And The Creation Of Lent

1:12:15 - Bernarr Macfadden

1:19:00 - Upton Sinclair

1:26:10 - The Dismissal Of Fasting In Fasting In Modern Medicine

1:28:20 - "Tricking" People Into Fasting

1:30:05 - Valter Longo And Fasting Mimicking Diet

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #115 - Valter Longo, Ph.D.

1:35:35 - AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8 - Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

1:39:20 - Fasting Clinics

1:42:05 - Alan Goldhamer's Data On Blood Pressure

1:46:30 - Steve's Experience At The Clinic

1:49:40 - The Future Of Fasting

1:53:15 - Steve's Fasting Practices

Early Vs Late-Night Eating: Contradictions, Confusions, And Clarity

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 315 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the TONE breath ketone analyzer and Tone LUX red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanievalon.com and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. We have a super special episode today. This is going to be a little bit different from our normal show. I interviewed Steve Hendricks on my other show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. He is the author of an incredible book called The Oldest Cure in the World: Adventures in the Art and Science of Fasting. Friends, that book blew my mind when I was reading it. I was just like, anybody who's even remotely interested in fasting or even if you're not, needs to read this book because it is that fascinating. So, when I aired it on that other show, I immediately knew I needed to air it on this show as well.

We talk about so many things, like the role of fasting in historical cultures. Did the Greeks actually fast? We talk about fraud in fasting. Yes, that is a real thing. We talk about how fasting might have actually been used to control women historically in the Christian church. That's interesting. We talk about Valter Longo and the fasting mimicking diet, Dr. Alan Goldhamer and TrueNorth Health Center. We talk about some pretty crazy, more modern people in fasting. Really just be prepared to have your mind blown when it comes to all things fasting. So, I really hope you guys enjoy this episode.

This is also serving as a transition episode between co-hosts. So, Cynthia Thurlow has been the co-host of this show for about the past year and we talked about this in episodes leading up to this, but she is actually leaving the show. And so, next week we have our new co-host, Vanessa Spina, also known as Ketogenic Girl and host of the Optimal Protein Podcast. Friends, you are going to love her. I am so excited about this. So, get excited for that. Take this moment as a sort of intermission and definitely let me know what you guys think.

By the way, if you enjoy this show, you'll probably really like my other show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, because it's basically like this show. I interview so many people, the world's top doctors, authors, and researchers on all things health and wellness. We're talking physical health and diet and exercise and mental health and wellness. I bring on people from all different perspectives. So, the best of the best in the keto and carnivore sphere, the best of the best in the vegan world. I've interviews with companies for products that you guys love. So, Joovv, red light therapy, Dry Farm Wines, NutriSense CGM, Tim Spector with the ZOE program. Of course, I've also interviewed figures that you guys hear a lot about, like Valter Longo, Jason Fung, Megan Ramos, so many things. So, definitely check out that show. In the meantime, enjoy this fabulous conversation with Steve Hendricks.

Steve, thank you so much for your time and thank you for being here.

Steve Hendricks: Oh, it's great to be with you, Melanie. I hope I can live up to that fantastic and very kind introduction. Thanks a million.

Melanie Avalon: I have so many questions for you. I want to hear your personal story, but just a question to start off because I'm so curious. I mean, this book is like a textbook and it's like all of this history. How do you find all of this information? Do you look at Wikipedia? Where does one go to collect all of this information?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I mean, the difficulty is that it's not in any one place, but that's of course, what makes I think the book very valuable. What I wanted it to be was to be both super comprehensive and it sounds like I checked that box for you, which is great. But I also wanted it to be lively. I wanted it to be a more vivid with characters and stories, a very relatable chronicle that people could-- you wouldn't think of a fasting book as a page turner, but that was my aim. My aim was to have the pages just fly by even though there was a lot of information. Now where do you go to find it? The book is sort of divided into three sections that are all sort of intertwined and overlapping. But as you said, it's the history of fasting and the science of fasting and my own experiences with fasting.

So, for the science of fasting, I go exactly where you go, which is reading those scientific studies and interviewing the most prominent researchers who have something interesting to say. The history was the trickier thing because there's so much written about the history of fasting, and unfortunately, a ton of it is wrong. So, you really have to dig pretty deep. And quite often there was an academic at some point will have written a book about fasting for a certain 500-year period in the Middle Ages, okay, awesome, great. So, I've got that period covered. Now what do I do about the other, like 2000 years of history before that and it's a real mix.

Sometimes I'm reading academics books, sometimes I'm reading their studies. In a few cases, I'm going to the actual Greek or Latin or whatever sources, and I'm trying to find someone on social media who will be kind enough to translate sentences that I'm having trouble figuring out. But most of the time I'm relying on-- I'm a reporter, so I'm reporting on the work of academics. Unfortunately, while there's not as much out there about fasting as we'd like, there is a ton out there if you just uncover all the stones. That's what added up to the book.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just blown away. I can't even imagine how much you had to read to get to it. I will say so you check the box about the comprehensive history. You definitely check the box, the second one about being lively and creating characters and page turner. There were literally times my mouth dropped open when I read parts about some of these things happening, which we can get into in this show.

Steve Hendricks: If you could see me blushing now, don't stop, don't stop.

Melanie Avalon: No, some of the stuff about the females fasting and the religious aspect of all of that. There're so many things. We can circle back to all that. Before that, your personal story, obviously, this is in the book. I'll just say, friends, listeners, we're not even going to remotely touch on everything in this book, so just get it now and you can hear everything. But you do share a lot about your personal fasting experience. So, could you tell listeners a little bit about that? You're a reporter, why did you become interested in fasting? Why are you writing about it now? I know you tried to write about it earlier and things happened with that, so why are you where you are today?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so I first started writing about fasting in an article that I published for Harper's Magazine about 10 years ago. That was back in a time where there weren't a lot of people fasting as there are today. And so, it was viewed with a lot of skepticism. I wrote that article because I had come to become fascinated with fasting myself and I had practiced it myself. The center piece of the article was this 20-day fast that I had done. At that time, I was about 40 years old, maybe in my late 30s when I did this.

I fasted for two reasons, one of which was the one that so many people come to fasting for. I just wanted to lose weight like a lot of people. I had put on a pound or two every year in my 20s and 30s and I'm 5'9" on a good day and I was weighing close to 170 pounds, whereas when I was at my lean in college I'd weigh 140. Partly I just wanted to lose weight. But I'd gotten interested in fasting and learned about fasting in the first place because I also was very interested in fasting for longevity.

I had originally started with caloric restriction, which as most of your listeners probably know, just means sharply limiting how many calories you're getting every day while still getting all your necessary nutrients. The problem with CR - caloric restriction is it is just fiendishly hard to do. It is just impossible. You're walking around hungry all the time and if you're a mere mortal like me, you're not some superhuman person. You just can't stick with caloric restriction. But the irony, well, of course, is that you can get many of the exact same benefits from a prolonged fast as you do in caloric restriction, yet you don't feel hunger. The irony is by doing the most calorically restricting thing of all just simply not eating, your hunger actually gets suppressed and so it becomes a much more doable thing.

So, this was very appealing to me. So, someone who weighed too much and wanted to weigh less and was curious because I'd read these historic accounts of people who'd done long fasts. I wanted to see what it was like. Now I'll caution and say, knowing what I know now, I would not undertake a 20-day fast on my own without some kind of medical supervision because there are too many things that can go wrong. I'm not telling the audience what to do or what not to do, but I want to caution that fasting doctors have very good reason for saying you don't really want to be doing really long fasts on your own because some things could go wrong. But with that caveat, I did that 20-day fast. It went fantastic. I had a lot of ups and downs that a lot of other people have described when fasting, but ultimately found it to be a very satisfying experience and I lost all the weight that I wanted to lose.

So, it was fantastic and I wrote this article and I'd like to tell you that in the 10 years since I wrote that article, it's all been a carpet of rose petals in my path, but that has not been the case. We can talk about that, but my health actually deteriorated over the years throughout my 40s, I'm 52 now, and it was eventually fasting and I believe dietary change that have rescued me.

Melanie Avalon: That was something that I loved was that you've had so many experiences with fasting. Like, for me, I started doing intermittent fasting in college and I did the type I'm still doing today, which is one meal a day, eating at night. I haven't done a long, extended fast like you. I haven't done-- you've tried ADF, you've gone to fasting clinics. I was really thrilled because in the opening of the book, you talk about and throughout the book, Alan Goldhamer, who I've had on the show at TrueNorth and I was super excited to hear your experience there.

So, it's super valuable, I think that you have had experience with all of these different fasts. There's something I wanted to comment on really quickly. I love the distinction that you have between fasting and calorie restriction. For example, you talk in the book about people looking at World War II and starvation and saying, “Well, if fasting has all these health benefits, why did people not get really healthy from starvation in World War II.” And it's the subtle nuance of having just enough calories to not let you actually be fasting. And then they're also malnourished not having enough food so, there's so much complexity, and I'm so happy that you tackle all of it. There're so many directions I want to go with this. You talked about the colorful characters in the history of fasting. I imagine because there were so many different people, why did you settle on Dr. Henry Tanner as the father of modern fasting and why did you choose to open the book with his story and everything that he did?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, great question. So, Henry Tanner was this doctor who was born in the 1830s, say he was a doctor. He was indeed a doctor, but not a medical doctor. He was what was then called an eclectic doctor, which is something like a naturopath today. So, he was an alternative medicine practitioner and somewhere along the way he had picked up fasting, short fasts, a couple of days here, three days there as a useful tool. Well, it turned out in 1877, he had fallen on hard times. He had just lost his wife. He was living in Twin Cities of Minnesota then and he had all kinds of ailments. He had a stomach condition that may have been a stomach flu. He had basically something that sounded like a nervous breakdown. He had heart problems and so on. He decides then that he's going to fast long enough to either cure himself or by one account kill himself and he didn't care what the difference was.

So, I started with him in part because he's such a quirky character. I'm not very good at remembering my own quotations and so on, but some of the things that he said were just out of left field, but also because he was the first person who in a scientific kind of way-- in a case study, scientific kind of way, sat down and said, “Well, I'm going to fast, and I'm going to see if fasting cures me and see what happens.” And he did it, there had been previous doctors along the way who had been noticing these cures and trying to write about it, but he did it in a way that got the message out to the entire world. What happens is he does this fast. At this time, it was expected-- people thought at this time you could not go longer than 8 to 10 days without food or you would die.

What Tanner found is when he reached 8 to 10 days, not only had all of his problems started falling away and all of them eventually got cured in the accounts that we have of this fast, but he felt even better, he felt even stronger than he ever had before. And so, he ended up finding out on day 20 something or whatever of his fast, because he just kept going and going because he was curious to see how long this fast could go without his suffering. He would find himself walking 10, 15, 20 miles a day, which is vigorous exercise for 1877. That could be a lot of exercise today. So, he does this fast, he cures himself, he breaks his fast after 41 days, and he had no intention of advertising it, but a friend of his, another doctor who had helped sort of supervise him during his fast, reported it in a medical journal in Chicago.

It got out to the world and everyone just completely ridiculed him, said, "He must be lying. There's no way that you could fast this long." Through series of other events, he's wanting to prove himself to redeem his name and an opportunity arises for him to go to New York City three years later in 1880, and there to repeat his fast of 40 days on a stage in front of people in New York. He was completely ridiculed at first, but there was this prurient interest in his fast because, oh, my gosh, he's going to fast beyond perhaps 8 to 10 days. What's going to happen? Is he going to die on stage? Interest grew and grew. This was a presidential election year. He was getting more coverage than the presidential contenders. His feat was being recorded all over the world. He went through the 8 to 10 days with no problem and kept fasting for 20 days and then 30, and eventually broke his fast at 40 days.

What happened with this, unfortunately, when he was in New York, he didn't have anything wrong with him. He wanted to prove that fasting could cure, he didn't have anything to be cured, so it didn't make the splash that he wanted it to make. But because it was reported in every newspaper in the United States and most of the newspapers in Europe and even some in Africa and Asia, he got the message out, the idea out that fasting might just be curative. And from that point on, that's really where we see this more scientific interest in fasting for health taking off in a way that it never had before, because it's fasting and it's counterintuitive and people don't want to do it. It was a very, very slow growth to get from there to where we are today. But without Henry Tanner, we wouldn't be where we are today.

Melanie Avalon: It sounds like social media, like the first-time fasting was in the eye of the public, and everybody was paying attention. So, on this stage, he literally just sat on the stage?

Steve Hendricks: It was a very barren stage because they wanted to make sure that there wasn't any hidden food and that no one would sneak food into him. He had a cot and he had a chair, and people could bring him reading material if it had been searched before. It got to the extent that if people were sort of reaching up and shaking a hand with him, they would inspect his hands to make sure that there wasn't food being passed to him, being palmed off to him or something. So, yeah, it was just sitting there and talking with people for 40 days. Newspaper editors sent over teams of reporters to watch him for 24 hours a day. He also had his own sort of core of watchers drawn from medical students and other doctors and so on. But, yeah, it was just sitting there doing nothing but not eating.

Melanie Avalon: What was the significance of his show off with Dr. Hammond?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so, Dr. Hammond, who was a former surgeon general of the United States, he was part of the occasion that gave Tanner the reason to go to New York to fast, and that's that Dr. Hammond was extremely skeptical of a group of women who were called the fasting maids. These were women who usually actually girls more than women, but young women and girls who had claimed a fasting power. They would claim that they could go months or in some cases even years without eating or with barely eating. And it was completely fraudulent. Not a bit of it was true. He had made it his mission to unmask these fasting maids. He'd even written a book doing his best to unmask them. It happened that there was one in Brooklyn in 1879, 1880, who had claimed to go, “I forget forever, basically, with hardly eating anything.”

He had challenged her. Her name was Mollie Fancher to fast in public under the watchful eye of doctors round the clock. She said no, she could not be examined by male doctors. Her feminine honor would have been impugned and so on. That was the point at which Henry Tanner in Minneapolis, because all this was being reported in the newspapers around the country, Henry Tanner said, “Well, I'll come to New York and I will fast in her place.”

Melanie Avalon: Hmm, got you.

Steve Hendricks: I'm sorry you asked, so, what became of the standoff? Well, eventually, Hammond had to admit that people could, in fact, go longer than he had ever expected without food. He still, of course, rightly, thought that the fasting maids were a croc, but he had to revamp and revisit his ideas about just how people could survive in the absence of calories.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Something I liked about that, like I called it a show off was. It felt like an analogy for a theme throughout the history of fasting with conventional medicine. People positing this other idea of fasting because it seemed like you're talking about how Hammond was a very respected conventional doctor and Tanner was of a different, I don't know what the word would be like woo-woo or alternative. So, it seems like that was a theme throughout, especially later in the fasting history, I think, there were so many forces against fasting.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, emphatically so, conventional doctors have always had a hard time accepting fasting and even today, it's the rare conventional doctor who will look at the science.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, yeah. Why do you think if you had to pick one, well, you don't have to pick one, but if you had to why do you think that is?

Steve Hendricks: Sure. No, that's a great question. That's one I've been wrestling with for about 15 years. I think the biggest reason is simply this. Fasting is premised on the idea that the body can heal itself. If we get out of its way, it knows what to do. Now, it's not a cure all. I'm not saying it's going to fix every single disease, but my goodness, it can reverse cardiovascular disease and arthritis and diabetes and even one form of cancer, at least. I could go down a list of 50 diseases that we have good evidence that fasting, prolonged fasting in particular, can reverse. That is not something that doctors have been very good at hearing.

Certainly, and I make this case throughout history, there was a period, even in the early 19th century, where the form of medicine that was most widely practiced by conventional doctors was called heroic medicine and it was horrible. The whole premise of it was, the doctor is going to be the hero. He's going to come in and save the day, and he's going to do this by bleeding the patient of-- leaders of his blood, of making him vomit, of making her have diarrhea with a purgative, of blistering the skin and all this that we're going to just whip the disease out of people, and it undoubtedly killed more people than it helped.

But that mentality, of course, doctors aren't doing that badly today, but they still have this mentality that disease is something that we have to conquer with technology, with our know how, with our fancy medical degrees and all the stuff that we've learned in medical school and our residencies and so on, and letting that go and saying, “You know what?” If you just back off and monitor these people, make sure they stay healthy while they do their fasting, their bodies can actually do the healing without you. It's that without you part that's very threatening to conventional doctors. I'll just close this little sermon by saying, “Look, I've gotten a lot of benefit out of Western medicine. I think conventional medicine has a lot of amazing points to it.” So, I'm not trying to condemn all of conventional medicine. It has saved me more than once. However, this is an enormous oversight and I think that's where doctors fall down.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad you brought up the heroic medicine. I was saying in the beginning how I'd have moments where my jaw dropped open hearing the things that people would go through with that. I just kept asking myself, “Why did people let these doctors do this to them?” To that question, was it a cultural zeitgeist of just believing the system that these things were helping? Was it ironically enough, the fact that because the body can heal itself that if people survived the heroic medicine and then the body healed themselves, then they would just credit the heroic medicine? How did this go on for so long? And relatively recently, if you think about it wasn't that long ago that this was happening relative to humanity.

Steve Hendricks: True. Some iterations of this were continuing into the 20th century, for sure. It's some of all of what you say. So, yes, every time you tortured someone [laughs] who was sick and that person didn't die, well, gosh, if you were the doctor, you could claim that your heroic medicine saved them. And so, in the absence of the scientific method existed, but it was really rudimentary back then, and in the absence of any real science, it was just impossible for people to prove. You could discount it. You could say, oh, I doubt that, or something, but you couldn't prove that the heroic medicine had been more harmful than helpful. But I think the other piece of it that you hit on as well is it is an extremely counterintuitive thing for all people, not just doctors, to accept that if we leave our body alone, it wants to heal itself.

So, you find these accounts when you go back and look through the history of medicine, of doesn't matter where it is. It could be the US, it could be Germany, France, Russia, you find these accounts from 100, 200, 500 years ago where a doctor writes something along the lines of, “It seems that if I leave my patients alone, some of them actually do better than when I give them the medicines.” That was emphatically true back then, the medicines of the day were almost all quackery, unless, by luck, they happened onto some herbal remedy of some kind. They seem to get better. But here's the problem. When a patient is sick, they call me to their bedside and what they want is a cure. They want a pill. They want a potion. It's very much like today. They don't want to hear, “Go home and don't eat for three days and see if that makes your fever better.”

It's an extremely hard thing for people to hear and you can understand why. I mean, when you have all the science, it just seems ridiculous, like you want to just shake these people. But in the absence of the science, what people are left with are their own impressions. Well, what do we feel like when we don't eat well? We feel weak. Our minds quite often slow down. We're not able quite often to do the same amount of work as we did before. Everything in our own experience tells us that not eating does not make us feel better. I think when a doctor comes along and says try this, it's an extremely hard thing to accept on both sides of that picture, both for the skeptical doctors who doubt this remedy and for patients who are equally skeptical throughout history.

Melanie Avalon: Chronologically, it's hard prescribing fasting for all the reasons that you just mentioned, and then retroactively, if the person does heal, there are so many examples in the book where fasting won't even be credited. You talk about the woman at TrueNorth Health Clinic and her spontaneous remission. They wouldn't say it was the fasting that did it, it was just spontaneous remission. Or you talked about, I think, a study looking at or I don't know if it was a study, but it was something looking at keto versus fasting-mimicking diet and fasting for epilepsy. And they didn't credit the fasting. They credit the diet aspects. So, even when fasting does work, it's like we can't give it the credit for what it did.

But another thought that this made me think of was there were so many moments in the book where it was things I just took for granted that it had never occurred to me that people historically were not aware or saw things completely differently. So, for example, the idea that what we burn when we're fasting, could you talk a little bit about theories that people had about what we were running off of energy wise?

Steve Hendricks: Isn't that incredible? We all know that we run on our fat, at least for most of the time. Yeah, we burn a little bit of protein and so on, but it's basically our fat. But no, people didn't know that, even as late as Henry Tanner's day. So, again, we're talking 1880. There were scientific journals about, there were scientific studies of nutrition and body composition and things like this. People debated endlessly what he was surviving on. Some of the theories were that the water that he was drinking had what were called animalcule, which was just these fancy word for just tiny, tiny organisms in his water, and that his body was surviving off of digesting those organisms. Other people believed that the air contained nutrients and the more people who were around then the more nutrients were being-- In theory, the nutrients were expelled by people who were breathing them out of their bodies, and then other people could breathe them in.

If you weren't eating, you could be nourished by breathing in these nutrients. There was one person who accused Henry Tanner of doing this fast in New York, because there were millions of people there. So, far more people breathing into the air. Other people would claim, of course, fasting has mostly throughout history been used for religious purposes, so people would claim divine assistance of some kind. That was, of course, the mechanism was never stated, but basically you didn't need to eat because your stomach was filled by the Holy Ghost or Jesus or whoever it was you were crediting that to. So, yeah, it was a quite a while, really, until the 20th century before people were-- science had settled the question of what do you burn when you're not eating, you burn your fat.

Melanie Avalon: I think one of the other ones was like, women burning their menstrual cycle or living off of that.

Steve Hendricks: Oh, right. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Crazy. Do you think if we had had the obesity epidemic earlier so if people were overweight-- When people lose weight from fasting or calorie restriction today, people can lose a lot of weight, and you can clearly tell something left their body, so it seems more obvious that you burned something away. But do you think because people weren't-- we didn't have obesity to the extent that we did today, it wasn't as noticeable that people were losing fat?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, that's quite probable. Another piece of it is, in order to lose a whole bunch of fat, you have to fast for a very long time. Although fasting has been around for a very long time throughout most of history, most people when they fasted were fasting for only a few days. There were a few people who fasted weeks or months, but they were very, very rare. So, even if you were obese, let's say you're my height, 5'9", you weighed 300 pounds, you fast for three days, you're not going to notice any fat loss. It's going to be very, very subtle. So, I think that was a piece of and that also changed after Tanner's fast. Once people realized in the late 19th century. "Oh, my gosh, you can fast 40 days and survive." Then you got people who were doctors, who were occasionally fasting patients as long as 50, 60, 75 days. And then, of course, it would have been extremely noticeable at that point whether the person was overweight or not, that they were losing their fat. But that didn't happen throughout most of history. So, that's probably a piece of it.

Melanie Avalon: And so, you touched on this little bit just now with the types of fast that people were doing. You touched on it in the beginning about what was or was not true. So, something that really blew me away was, I think, for most people, if they think about the history of fasting and what they think they know about it, there's just this idea, like with the Greeks, for example, we think Hippocrates was all about "Let food be thy medicine." I guess we can question if he even said that. But there is this idea that, “Oh, the old ancient people knew what they were doing, and the Greeks were fasting.” And were the Greeks really fasting? What was happening there? What was the role of fraud in the history of fasting?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. So, I first started fasting, I was greatly relieved to hear that fasting was this ancient practice. If you're into fasting, you've all seen these quotes. Supposedly Plato had written, “I fast for greater physical and mental efficiency.” Plutarch said, “Instead of medicine, fast a day.” Hippocrates said, “To eat when you are sick is to feed your sickness.” There are all these quotations and stories out there and it turned out on examining them, one or two of which I had even related myself from what seemed like reliable sources when I first wrote about fasting a decade ago. When I dug deeper and really looked at the sources, it turns out, no. Almost none of that. All those quotations I just said, all bogus, every one of them.

Melanie Avalon: It's crazy.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. And they're repeated, I mean, some of them were created pretty recently, within the last few decades. Some of them, there's a story about Pythagoras who was said to have fasted, was made to fast, before he became a student in Egypt for 40 days. Didn't like it, but he did it, fell in love with it, and made all of his students fast for 40 days as well, before they started studying with him. Well, it turns out that's not true. It wasn't something that was developed yesterday. That was developed by people who were trying to glorify Pythagoras and associate him through the 40-day fast with the 40-day fasting of Elijah and Moses and whoever else. So, anyway, these stories are told for various reasons, but the reason they persist today is because they are extremely comforting to people who are doing this weird thing that, until very recently, no one else was doing. They provide this kind of sense of, “Oh, you are part of this long worthy tradition with these noble people who came up with mathematical theorems and so on. So, it must be a good thing.”

In fact, the truth is, while it's true that we owe probably the first really deep signs anyway of therapeutic fasting to the ancient Greeks and to people around the time of Hippocrates, they had no idea what to do with it. The reason they had and they had no idea what to do with just about anything to do with medicine. The reason is because there was a taboo on dissecting bodies. You couldn't look inside the body, you couldn't see what was going on, so, they made up these cockamamie theories. The one that eventually won out was called humoralism. It held that if you keep your body's four humors in balance, those were black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood. So, they believed if you kept them in balance, then you would be healthy. When they got out of balance, then you would be unhealthy. That's why you get to such things as bleeding people, is that's to try to get their blood amount back in balance. Well, it was all completely nonsense, but all of medicine was based on that.

The few things that have come out about fasting from this time are just useless, almost all of them. So, for instance, a writer in the Hip-- I should say, we don't know if Hippocrates wrote any of the works that are ascribed to him. There are about 60 works in the Hippocratic corpus. They were probably mostly written by family disciples, whatever, some by impostors. But anyway, within the Hippocratic corpus, one of these Hippocratic writers will say something like, “When you have hiccups or you have muscle spasms, you should either fast or overeat.” And it's like, “Well, which one?” Those are opposites. It was full of this kind of nonsensical stuff.

Now, all that being said, the Greeks did because they were open to fasting and because their big contribution, big contribution that Hippocrates and his colleagues made was that previously medicine was just seen as something that happened by divine fate or something. They said, “No, there are actual causes to diseases. We can learn to understand what those are, and sometimes we may be able to treat them.” Now, the fact that their treatments ended up being wacky doesn't discredit this enormous advance they gave us. And because of that advance, people over the centuries started experimenting with fasting. Eventually they got around to just through random chance practically stumbling on some things that did seem to work here and there. They weren't very prominent, they didn't last super long, but you could see these kinds of bubbling up of fasting intelligence over the years.

One of the reasons I went into kind of what you're calling them fasting fraud of these ancient quotations and stories and so on is because I just don't think that they're so widespread, they're everywhere, they're unfortunately, every health website and anyone who talks about fasting usually resorts to one or two of them. What you find is I don't think that helps us. What helps us is not sort of covering ancient fasting in a glory that it doesn't deserve, but actually understanding where fasting came from, being humble about what things we did know and didn't know when as a species and therefore treating fasting with a lot more care, I hope.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like now I need to go through all my blogs and my book and my podcast. I'm sure I've been sharing some of this misinformation. This is just a random tangent. The thing you were saying about how the cure for what was it for hiccups was either to fast or to overeat. I actually was reading a study about fasting the other day. I was researching fasting's effect on pain because of a listener question for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, and I found a really interesting study, and it was all about how both fasting and eating can relieve pain. Super random tangent. [laughs] So, maybe there was something with the hiccups, I don't know.

Steve Hendricks: Right. I mean, well, there could have been something there. Had there been a more scientific way of parsing through the various evidence, something might have grown out of that, but they just didn't have that at the time.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. You mentioned it in the book, but when we're looking at these quotes, how do we figure out that these sentences weren't uttered by these people?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so the first clue is, if someone's not offering a citation, don't trust them. [laughs] They may well be right, of course, not everything has citations. But the simple thing to do is to go and look, to see who is making those quotations with citations and then just keep following them back like you'll find that I don't know that this quotation say, “Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food,” from Hippocrates, which you see everywhere and no Hippocratic writer ever wrote that. What happens is if you start chasing it back, one article will cite another article, which will cite another article, and often this is in the scholarly literature, but no one will be citing an ancient Greek source. Once you get back to the very earliest one of these, that's maybe in 1910 or maybe it's in 1842 or whatever, and you found that on Google Books or somewhere like that, if you go as far back as you can and there's nothing more beyond that, [laughs] then you have to conclude that it's probably made up. You can check some of these by, if you want, emailing your favorite, I don't know, Hippocrates scholar and saying this quotation seems to be completely bogus. Are you familiar with this in any of the Hippocratic writings, nope. They'll usually be able to help you out in such a straight.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's so interesting. It speaks to a broader problem of that just happening in general, I imagine, in the scientific literature, because all it takes is some idea to slip into some journal somewhere, and then that's quoted, and then that’s quoted and then we're lost with it. I know that happened with, I think with the quote about how many top soils generations we have left. I know there was something about that. Like somebody said a quote about that at some conference without a citation, and then it made its way into some literature, and then it just kept getting quoted. But I imagine it happens with a lot of things.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. Once it makes it into an academic publication, whether it's a peer reviewed scientific journal or a book by an academic, forget it. Then everyone in the world will cite it, and it's just a lost cause.

Melanie Avalon: Well, you mentioned 40 days a lot and I think probably a lot of people when they think of 40-day fast, they might think of Jesus' 40-day fasts. I was super fascinated by the history of fasting in different religions. Okay, so to start, here's a quote people will say all the time, they'll say that, “Fasting appears in every major religion.” Does it appear in every major religion?

Steve Hendricks: It appears in almost every major religion. Now, you could split hairs over what's a major religion, but yes, in virtually every major religion. The one exception is Zoroastrianism, which is in Persia, modern day Iran, Zoroaster, the founder of Zoroastrianism. Almost all religions experimented, and some wildly adopted some form of asceticism just being really savage to your body. One form that was available to everyone was fasting.

So, every religion, practically, certainly every major religion that has evolved has had to wrestle with what is the place for asceticism in our religion. Zoroaster, after experimenting with it, eventually decided that it was extremely harmful. He thought that fasting in particular would leave you too weak to farm, too weak to create productive and strong offspring. He chose a kind of more hedonistic almost view of the world and said, “No, we're not going to fast.” What's curious about this is that it's basically, as I say, a slightly hedonistic religion telling people that this is not a sin and that is not a sin, and you can do a bunch of things that these other religions won't.

Well, today Zoroastrianism has 200,000 followers, and that's it in the entire world. Meanwhile, the religion, it mostly lost out to is Islam, which in some forms is very strict about what you can and can't do. And there are a billion Muslims. So, I don't know what the heck that says about human psychology, but that's a long way of saying that with the exception of Zoroastrianism, virtually all other religions, certainly the religions most of us have heard of had some place for fasting, but it varied enormously. Some places, some religions, it was a very small role. In other religions, it practically took over the whole religion.

Melanie Avalon: In Hinduism, because I think that was one of the first religions you talked about that was primarily for enlightenment, was the purpose of fasting?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I mean, the idea was that if you could eliminate desire, you could reach nirvana. So, they would do all kinds of ascetic practices. They would deny themselves sleep, shelter, clothing, family. This is the first time you really get into really ascetic monks who are doing an almost athletic like training for the soul. One of the ways was fasting, this idea that it was a way of renouncing desire, which Hinduism at that time certainly saw as a holy path. Early Hinduism is one place where fasting just grew and grew and grew. And you can see how it happens. If a little bit of fasting makes you holy, then a whole lot of fasting--

Melanie Avalon: Really holy.

Steve Hendricks: Exactly and that's exactly what happens. So, you eventually get to a point where there are Hindu calendars in ancient Hinduism that have 140 days of the year set aside for fasting. The sad part of it is, eventually the men who ran the religion decided that the people most in need of fasting were women. So, the fasting burden fell very heavily on women, very lightly on men. It took a reaction many years later to sort of tamp that down. But even today, if you speak to Hindu families and say, “Who in your family fasts?” You are much more likely to find women who fast than men do. And this is not an uncommon theme. This is exactly what happened in Christianity as well.

Melanie Avalon: No. So, I think this was my favorite theme [chuckles] in the book. I was blown away by how often it occurred and what happened when it occurred. So, even with the Greeks, I think you said that when there was fasting, it was more with women, I don't know, that just never occurred to me. I don't remember which culture or time it was, but there was one example where women could fast because it was the one thing they could do. Like, men would go on vagabond things and they could do all this other stuff, but the only thing women could do was fast.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, during the Middle Ages, fasting really took hold in Christianity probably 100, 200 years or so after the death of Jesus, who didn't have much at all to say about fasting. Like most Jews who fasted him, he surely fasted, but he didn't have much to do with it. Early Christians didn't have much to do with it. But eventually Christians decided that the church fathers who ran Christianity at the time, that fasting could basically be used to subjugate women. The problem was that men were these very holy, devout creatures. But, yeah, they were little bit weak. They were tempted by this temptress woman who God had just put down here to torment male Christians was almost the view. And so, the idea was that you could neutralize female sexuality by getting women to fast. Sexuality was important, because by this time in Christianity, the sexual being had come to be seen as impure and tainting and so on.

Fasting was supposed to dry up the moist humors. Remember the crazy humoralism we talked about earlier was predominating. Dry up the moist humors in women that were supposed to behind female lust. If you took fasting far enough, it could obliterate womanhood. It could pare the hips, get rid of breasts and buttocks, it could end menstruation. This wasn't supposed to be a punishment, so the church father said anyway, this was supposed to be something to aim for, to make yourself more holy, and your reward would be becoming a bride of Christ. This was quite literally meant some of the creepiest erotic writings of late antiquity.

Melanie Avalon: It's so creepy.

Steve Hendricks: Isn't it? Are these scenes where Christ is uniting with his virgin brides in the heavenly bridal chamber or something? It's just obscene. It's not to say that every woman in Christianity fasted herself to this near starvation, but that was certainly the ideal that was held out. And so, you find by the time you get to the Middle Ages in the Renaissance, the vast majority of saints who are women in the Catholic hierarchy, who have been sainted, are these fasting saints. They have these very anorexic traits. Some of them literally starve themselves to death. Most of them just starve themselves into illness and probably an early death because of it, though, of course, we can't say for sure. That brings us to what you just referred to.

Devout Christians were supposed to be practicing some form of asceticism. It didn't have to be as crazy as what the saints were doing and so on, but it needed to be something. Lots of forums were open to men, and one of the biggest ones of the day was called mendicancy, which is just going around homeless from town to town, begging, saying, “I'm a monk, I'm a brother of Christ, please give me food, or whatever." Your penance was to have or not penance, but your sort of duty was to have a life with few possessions and to live on the goodness of others. When women tried that, there were a few who did, the most famous is known as Clare of Assisi. When she tried it, she was told, “Well, this homeless vagabonding is not in keeping with pure womanhood, so get back into your abbey and forget this kind of thing.” And so, what was open to her was the power over her own body?

So, on the one hand, while it was a very misogynistic, very horrible set of doctrine that were being handed to girls and women throughout Europe of this time. On the other hand, some of them did this kind of reclaiming thing. Well, okay, all you're going to give me is the power over my own body, I'm going to use it to starve my way to heaven, they would basically think. So, you have one theory anyways to how you got so many of these fasting saints. There was just nothing else or very little else left over that they could do that would achieve for them the equivalent amount of holiness as the men were achieving through their asceticism.

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Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That was such a crazy ironic dichotomy that on the one hand fasting was used to really oppress these women and repress their sexuality and control them. And then on the other hand, it was like the one thing the women could do to assert themselves. [laughs] It's so ironic. My sister came over the other night and I was telling her about the book and about all of this and I was telling her about these saints who actually were probably anorexic and died from that, and then they were canonized as saints. I found the page in the book that you mentioned with those passages of the bride of Christ stuff, and I was like, “You have to read this.” It's just fascinating. You talk about Catherine of Siena, who is one of the probably anorexic saints that died. You can still see her body, like parts of her body at places.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. There's this creepy thing in Catholicism where they have, in churches and cathedrals, these reliquaries and the relics that are in the reliquaries are often the body parts of saints. So, when a saint would die, sometimes it's a whole body. But people everywhere wanted a little bit of something, so they might chop off a finger and send that to one town, chop off a foot and send that to another town. So, anyway, her body is scattered around Italy. Catherine of Siena was perhaps, no doubt about it, was the greatest, most powerful fasting saint. She had an influence over the popes of the time. She had an influence over various princes and so on and their political dealings. She helped propagate one of the crusades that was happening in her era.

She died very early, almost certainly because she had weakened herself too much through too much fasting. So, she died in her early 30s. She died in Rome. She was from Siena and someone chopped off her head at some point and brought her head back to Siena. If you go into the Cathedral in Siena, you will see her head still there. You can google it. It's online. It's shocking how well preserved it is, given that we're talking about something kind of forget the dates, but six or seven centuries ago. But yes, it's this creepy thing that is done in a lot of Catholic churches to take these various body parts.

Melanie Avalon: Because I think we like to think that we're beyond this, but do you think this theme has kind of continued with maybe not as much today with the health at every size movement, but, like, Parisian fashion and runway models. Is that a continuation of that theme?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, it's a very good question, Melanie. And I'm not sure. I went into such detail about how fasting has been used to oppress women, because food and how much you should and shouldn't eat is, of course, still being used to just ruin women's lives, even if it's in a much more secular way of, say, Paris Fashion Week than a dictum from the Roman Catholic Church. I don't know. I never found a scholarly article or report or something that drew a very clear line and said, this is why we're having trouble today. The parallels to what was going on in the past and what is going on today with women's bodies were strong enough that I just wanted to lay that out there. You're astute to notice that, to ask whether there's a connection. In the book, I don't say and that I don't say because I don't have answer. So, possibly yes, possibly no.

Regardless of whether there's a straight connection, I think we can learn from it. It's not a super sophisticated message here. It's just that women have been screwed over by usually men telling them what the hell to do with their bodies. And I especially wanted to be sensitive to that because I tell you, when I talk about-- I mean, I've been talking about fasting with people for 15 years hands down. The ones who resist it far more. The gender that resists it are women more than men. Well, it definitely has to do with some of these themes. Whether it's directly linked to what happened in history, who knows. I think we need to recognize that and understand it and be sympathetic to it.

Melanie Avalon: It's such a complex and complicated topic, and you're talking about women being resistant to fasting. I definitely see it, just especially with The Intermittent Fasting Podcast and all the questions we get, because there are a lot of studies on the science of the health benefits of fasting, particularly in women and particularly for hormonal issues, PCOS, a lot of benefits that can be had. There's also a huge concern that women shouldn't be fasting. It's hard to piece out how much of that is from themes we all just talked about societal issues of women and eating or how much it's just that women might tend to over restrict and be too restrictive in diet and lifestyle and fasting. I don't know, it's just a very complex topic, and another reason I love your book so much. I hadn't considered the history of fasting in women at all as a piece in it. So, it's really interesting.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I would love it if someone could come up with answer to that question. Hopefully some scholar will turn to that someday.

Melanie Avalon: Another religion that was super interesting, Jainism. What happens with fasting there and there's suicide fasting?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, it's really something. Jainism probably took fasting to an even greater extreme than Christianity did. So, Jainism, certainly at that time, the belief Jainism, Hinduism, and Buddhism all kind of grew out of the same, they're called Vedic religions in ancient India, and they've interpreted them different ways and often in reaction to each other. Partly because Hinduism, even as crazy as it was with fasting, and Buddhism, which was much more moderate with fasting, because they were both kind of on the slightly more moderate side than Jainism. Jainism reacted by taking fasting to quite an extreme and they took a lot of dogma to extreme. Their main view is that life is either suffering or it's causing suffering. Even grass is alive, so if you walk across the grass, you're causing suffering. The problem with that is that all organisms are composed of karma, which they've conceived of as these sort of literal bits, sort of like atoms.

Your karma are mostly bad deeds and they keep the soul from soaring to heaven. They literally weigh your soul down so that it can't soar to heaven. Fasting, they decided, burned off bad karma. So, they would take fasting to some very extreme practices. One of them was this year long thing that they called Varsha Thapa which, if I remember it correctly, you eat nothing from sunrise until sunset 36 hours later. Then you eat after sunset. Once you've done that, you start all over again. At sunrise, fast another 36 hours till sunset. Eat a little more, do it again at sunrise. You do this for an entire year, which is just insane. So, they had all these practices, but the one that has gotten the most attention is this suicidal one you referred to. That was called Sallekhana and Sallekhana was simply starvation unto death. The original idea was that if you were as enlightened as you could possibly be, you had nothing more to achieve in this life. You had burned off as much karma as you could. Well, what was the point in continuing to live? If you continue to live, you might just rack up some more bad karma. You might inflict suffering. You could starve yourself to death.

Very, very devout Jains did this. We don't have an idea as to how many people did this over time. We're not talking millions here. We're talking probably well, today we think that there are probably a couple of hundred people a year who are doing this. Now, in modern times, it's been modified somewhat, so you don't have to be near enlightenment and so on. If you have a terminal illness, you've got a terminal diagnosis, there's no hope for you, you can starve yourself to death rather than suffering.

There are cases in the west, of course, not just in Jainism, where people have done this, not a ton, but a few, who I speak of a writer, Sue Hubbell, who in 2018 got a dementia diagnosis and it was getting worse and worse and worse. And she essentially practiced Sallekhana. She starved herself to death for about 34 days. And so, people report that this is not a completely painless death, but it is much more painless than many other ways to go, and that the pain is very manageable and that all in all, it's kind of a peaceful death. So, who knows. I don't have much else to say in favor of Jainism, but it seems like an interesting thing to consider for those who are terminally ill.

Melanie Avalon: Jainism, when I was reading about it, literally, it sounds like the definition of you just can't win. You just can't win. [chuckles] Everything you do is not good. How do you think that compares to somebody dying on their deathbed and then they stop eating and that's how they die? That seems to be very common or more common.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. There's quite often in the last stages of death, if you have a cancer or something, then it's just one of these lingering things where you've been dying of the cancer for six months. Quite often, in the last two days, three days, seven days, maybe you'll just lose your appetite and that's your body shutting down and basically preparing for death, as I have had it explained to me anyway. And I think that makes sense. This is a different category of thing, this is-- I have cancer, it's a terminal diagnosis, I could linger for six months and deal with the pain, the medication, the whatever else or I could starve myself to death and be dead in 30 days. In the Sue Hubbell's case, she had dementia. Heck, she was only, I think, in her 60s. She might have lived another 25 years. The difference is it's consciously seizing the opportunity to shorten that period of what for a lot of people would be hell.

Melanie Avalon: Something I would love to know. I've never thought about this. I'd be super curious because we know of all of the processes that are activated by fasting and cellular renewal and all of the benefits. I wonder when a person is on their deathbed and then they do enter that state where their body is shutting down and they stop eating, I wonder if they still activate all those processes or if it's different.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, that would be really interesting to know because the reason that most of us, well, many of us fast is because it initiates all these repair mechanisms. If your body kind of has some inkling, I assume that it's going to die-

Melanie Avalon: Like nose.

Steve Hendricks: -right, [laughs] would it bother with the repairs? I have no idea. I don't think it's ever been studied anywhere.

Melanie Avalon: It would be a sad and a morbid study. I would be very curious, though. Just before we leave the religious aspect because I think people, especially since Christian is such a large religion, they might have been surprised to hear that fasting wasn't as prominent or as big as a part as maybe we have thought it might have been, especially with Jesus and the 40-day fast and everything. You talk about how-- I think when Jesus talks about fasting, he talks more about doing it in private rather than public. So, like, Lent, what's going on there?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so that's a really good question. What happened was, after Jesus, we have what we think is a pretty good record of what he probably said. But He didn't lay out how to build an entire society and how to do everything. The church fathers had to come up with a lot of doctrine. Although the early church fathers sort of heeded Jesus-- Jesus had come and basically said all these silly dietary laws and everything else that the Jews are doing, you don't need to mess with that. Like, just, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” If you obey that golden rule, then the rest will fall into place. Just don't get bogged down with 3000 laws. So, one of those things that people assumed that he was talking about was don't get bogged down with fasting. In the first century or so after his death, there was not much fasting in Christianity. I mean, some of them had just-- they had been many of them, most of them, probably Jews. Jews fasted, so they'd probably done some fasting and so on.

But then, what happened was that the church fathers found that they could make fasting into something extremely useful to them. I've discussed the importance of subjugating women in order to keep them in their place and not tempt men. It wasn't all just that. I mean, that was a huge part of what was going on. But there was also, for instance, there came to be an idea that evolved a century or two after Jesus' death that was called the [unintelligible [01:07:58] angelicus, the life of the angels. The idea was that you should try to be on earth as much as you would be when you become angel or a deceased or whatever they thought they would be in Heaven. And angels were obviously incorporeal. They didn't have bodies, so they didn't eat. So, to the extent that you were able to model that here on earth, by not eating, by starving yourself, you could achieve this life of the angels here on earth or as close to it as you could possibly get. So, for reasons like this fasting took on a life of its own and it just grew.

Most people probably heard of the Desert Fathers and Desert Mothers, these monks in antiquity who would go out into the desert and do all these kinds of ascetic feats. One of their ascetic feats was to fast for days or weeks or months. And so, fasting kind of gained a momentum of its own. Remember how I said before that in Hinduism, there were eventually as many as 140 days or something like that of fasting on Hindu calendars. On Christian calendars, it expanded so much that by the Middle Ages and Renaissance, some places in Europe had 220 or 240 days of fasting throughout the year. I mean, it was just overwhelming how it grew to this proportion. So, Lent grew from that just same general expansion. It had eventually been Easter. Easter originally was the holiest day of the Christian calendar. It was also the saddest. It was occasioned for mourning because Christ had been killed, he'd come down to save us, and then there was the joyous resurrection. It ended kind of joyfully, but it was a very mournful period.

The Church Fathers found that if you wanted to emphasize to people just how mournful they should be, how sober and how contemplative that they should be, you should make them fast. So, Easter got preceded by depending upon where this was enacted a day, maybe two days, eventually maybe three or four days or a week of fasting, which eventually, over time because again, same thing as what we were talking about with the Hindus and the Jains of a little fasting makes you holy, a lot of fasting makes you holier. It eventually grew to this 40-day famine before Easter and it was honored in different ways.

Some people just sort of famously, as we know today, they just give up one thing. I should say more commonly among the more devout, it was a partial day of fasting each day. So, you might fast until 03:00 PM in the afternoon, have a light meal, maybe a dinner, and then you do it all over again the next day. It wasn't 40 days without food for most people. So that's how Lent grew. It was the way that fasting tended to grow throughout the more primitive parts of human history, which is just this simple idea of, well, gosh, maybe more fasting is even better for us.

Melanie Avalon: Those fasting days, like you mentioned in Lent, were those the type of fasting days like in Hinduism, when they would have all those days on the calendar? Would they complete fasts or were they just eating lightly?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so for most of those, when I say 220 or 240 days on some of these medieval European calendars, most people observe those by eating lightly. Some people would just observe them by giving up desserts or maybe they would give up meat. So, it was a partial fast for most people. For the most devout people who really honored it, they tended to give up all food until mid-afternoon and then they tended to eat lightly for the rest of the day. One would assume they gorged the next non-fasting day that they had in order to make up the calories, because otherwise they would have been in quite a caloric deficit. But that seems to be what happened.

Melanie Avalon: Little ADF action going on.

Steve Hendricks: Right, something like that.

Melanie Avalon: So, I think when people think back through the history of Christianity, they think of the moment of challenging all of this dogma and doctrines would be with Martin Luther and the Reformation. So, did that affect fasting in any way?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I mean, absolutely it did. It probably wasn't as big a deal with Martin Luther as people thought when he nailed his-- well, he probably didn't, another myth of history. Yeah, he didn't nail his thesis to the door of the church, but when he published his thesis, he was upset about fasting. At that time, what had happened was at the same time that there was this one poll of fasting, which was this crazy, over the top, extreme fasting that led to the fasting saints and some of the stuff we've talked about. There was also this other poll in which ordinary people were trying desperately to get out of fasting any way they could because they hated it. So, particularly if it's on the calendar a couple of hundred days a year.

The church had eventually gotten around to letting the rich buy their way out of fasting by making donations to the church. These were called dispensations and you could buy a dispensation to let you drink milk or eat butter or something during your days when you were supposed to be fasting. There's even one of the Cathedrals in France in Normandy has a Butter Tower. It's called the Butter Tower because this gorgeous Gothic tower was built on the money from the dispensations for laypeople to eat butter during Lent and other fasting days. So, Martin Luther didn't like all that, but he didn't make a huge deal out of it right there and then in his original protests. But he eventually became much more vocal as he was criticizing the pope in Rome and other members of the hierarchy of the church. He eventually went after them for these dispensations.

Not only were they unfair to people who couldn't afford them, but who were these humans in Rome to be selling off something that was supposedly God's right to tell us to do or not to do? And so, from there in the Reformation, fasting played a pretty large role in getting people to revolt against the church, because fasting was something that was hated. The church was corrupt, it had tons of money, and rich people could get out of it. So, you had a lot of very ordinary people who were very primed by fasting to revolt against the church, which eventually led to the establishment of all these Protestant churches in countries across Europe.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, one of themes I found so interesting is the backlash and the responses surrounding fasting and especially politically or even with the government and things like that. And so, in the US, there were quite a few interesting people. I was wondering if we could talk about Bernarr Macfadden. I was so fascinated by him and what he did and this idea of the cult of the Body Beautiful and everything that happened with him. So, how does he relate to the fasting world?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. Bernarr Macfadden stumbles onto the scene about 20 years after Henry Tanner's fast in 1880. Macfadden was perhaps one of the greatest showmen in America. And I don't mean that literally. Well, he did do some shows on stage, but I mean just sort of as a carnival like media figure. He came along and in 1899 established a journal called Physical Culture, which by the time it was done with its first year, had 100,000 subscribers, which made it one of the biggest subscribed journals in the country and would just keep growing and growing. I think the number between the two world wars was that it sold 50 million copies. What Physical Culture was, was this Body Beautiful magazine. It showed people who exercise, exercise wasn't huge back then and lifted weights, which was even less huge, and he would show them what they could make of their own bodies and that was its power.

It was like everyone has the power to be as beautiful and handsome as these models, who, not incidentally, he showed wearing next to nothing, sometimes wearing absolutely nothing. With the genitals artfully concealed behind a literal fig leaf or something. And so, he gained this enormous enormous following. He created one publication after another. It was kind of the beginning of this confessional, first person, lurid stories that played fast and loose with the truth form of so-called journalism. Some of his other publications were like, True Detective, True Romance and stuff. Supposedly the stories were true, but of course they weren't. At the height of his powers, with all of his journals and he owned a newspaper or two. He had a circulation of 200 million copies a year in a country that didn't have anywhere near the number of people who we have today, of course.

He made all kinds of fantastic health claims. Like he had a way of regrowing bald heads, regrowing the hair on the heads. He had a way of one of the most famous was a thing that he called the penis scope, which was this, like, glass tube and a vacuum pump. It was supposed to give these middle-aged men with erectile dysfunctions like firmer erections. I mean, just crazy, quackery, nonsense stuff. But in the midst of all this, he also put out some really useful information about fasting, because he had discovered fasting when he was a child, probably had heard about Tanner's fasts and so on. But he had noticed, working on a farm that farm animals, when they got sick, stopped eating. So, one time when he got pneumonia, he tried it and believed that it had helped him. He did all of these very important things, but very poorly respected things because of who he was to promote fasting.

He wrote books and there were articles in his magazines about fasting and he supported various fasting doctors and so on. It didn't take because he was such a quack on so many other things that the medical establishment absolutely wanted nothing to do with him, and he just blasted them left, right, and center in his publications. But it had so very little effect. What he did do, however, was to carry forward and not just carry forward, but expand on Henry Tanner's bringing of fasting into the public consciousness because what Macfadden did was he actually showed-- I'm not talking in any scientific way, but he would report cases of people who claimed to have been cured of their diseases by fasting. People who had skin diseases, headache, constipation, kidney diseases, on and on and on. It's a very long list. This sparked the curiosity of a very small number of doctors and scientists and sort of more judicious reporters than he was, who took fasting to the next step. But he's an enormously important transition figure.

Melanie Avalon: So, fascinating, it just makes you realize you just don't know what's going to have an effect. I'm blown away. You said 200 million copies a year.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: And today, there's only like 300 million, I think, citizens.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, we've got, I don't know, 330 and 340 million people here. So, yeah, these were-- one person might be getting five of his journals. It's not like it was going to 200 million people. That figure was in 1929 right before the Great Depression struck. He went downhill from there. But even as late as oh, I forget what the year was, early 1950s, let's say. There was this famous show, TV show, where you had to guess a famous person based on just a sentence that they read or something like that. I'm forgetting what the name of it was. It was really catchy, but anyway, 30 years after his peak, 20 years at least, he could appear on this TV show without his face showing, just his voice reading one line or whatever it was, and people could guess who he was. He had that much influence over the culture.

Melanie Avalon: And he started his own religion.

Steve Hendricks: He did. [laughs] He started it, had to be one of the shortest-lived religions in history. He started something called Cosmotarianism and Cosmotarianism was just a blend of Macfadden health doctrine and kind of some parts he had stolen from Christianity. It must have lasted six months or something.

Melanie Avalon: Speaking of Cosmo, I learned about, I guess Cosmopolitan magazine used to be different than it is today.

Steve Hendricks: Indeed, it was a serious journal that talked about, I don't know, gosh, the economy or the state of the French Army or what have you. It was not a sex tips and blemish free skin kind of journal.

Melanie Avalon: There's another theme there that I think we see today, not specifically fasting, but even today, you just don't know what's going to take off, what's going to become popular, even with people who might have celebrity attached to them. You don't know if what they promote will be successful. So, I was super interested to learn that, like, Upton Sinclair, for example, who most people have heard of and are familiar with, that he wrote about fasting.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. He was really the next, I think, most important person after Macfadden. Upton Sinclair is the famous muckraking journalist, who when he was in his late 20s, wrote a book called The Jungle and was about the atrocious treatment of workers in Chicago meat packing plants and also about the completely unsanitary conditions there. But he had a much lesser known side to him and that was that he wrote a book called The Fasting Cure, which grew out of a couple of long articles that he had written for Cosmopolitan magazine back in 1910 and 1911. What Sinclair had a story about, like, a lot of people who come to fasting, which is, “I had all these illnesses. I couldn't shake them. I went to doctor after doctor after doctor.” I mean, he spent gosh, I think, translated into today's money something like $500,000 on doctors and sanitariums and retreats and so on, trying to cure himself of what sounds like a really unshakable fatigue, constantly upset stomach, headaches that would strike him out of nowhere and no one had any cure.

Then he stumbles on some of this crazy stuff from Bernarr Macfadden and he tries fasting. To make a long story short, it cures him. All of his ailments go away. He is able to write more prolifically than ever, and he says, “Well, I got to tell the world about this. I've got a platform, so let's get the news out.” What he did that was very, very useful. In addition to writing these two articles for Cosmopolitan, he also put out a survey. I think it was at the end of one article and said, “Hey, if you have fasted, if you're reading this, would you please write and tell me whether you had a good response, bad response. Tell me if you were fasting to cure something. Did you cure whatever it was?” So, he did the first really sort of systemic attempt, and he's a layperson. He's not a scientist. He's publishing in something that ordinary people need to be able to read or his publisher will not sell it.

As good as a layperson could do a very good job of assembling a whole bunch of case studies of people who said, “Yeah, I had a stomach ulcer, I fasted for 35 days, it went away, or, yeah, I had thus and such wrong with my liver or thus and such had a carbuncle on my toe. After a fast of 20 days, it went away.” What he was doing was he was saying, “Look, you don't have to take my word for it.” He provided the names and addresses of these or at least the cities that they lived in, which back then was good enough. He would provide information about these people and just say, “I just want men of science.” They were almost all men back then, of course. “I just want men of science to look at this seriously. It surely cannot be that we have all this evidence of all these people, more than 100, 90% of them, who said they got better when they fasted. It surely cannot be that we have all this evidence and scientists will not take a look at it, particularly because at that time medicine could not cure most diseases. It was really still a very impotent form of medicine back then. But of course, as you might have guessed, that did not happen. Scientists generally looked away. Most men of medicine looked away.

Melanie Avalon: That's something I found so interesting. You talked about how when they really first started studying fasting for longevity, and it was a lot in rodent studies, I think, probably in the 1980s, but I think you made a comment about how there was all this really fascinating research on longevity and telomeres and shrinking organs and nuclei and stuff, but it took so long for people to apply that to humans, like to do human studies. Why do you think that is?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, again, it just goes back to how counterintuitive fasting is. It is just very hard for people to accept that not eating can make you stronger, that it can heal you. If we have it our sort of textbook ideal version of what a scientist or doctor is, as someone who's entirely dispassionate and doesn't have any biases and can look at things completely fresh every time, “That's not what's going on.” Doctors bring their biases. Scientists bring their biases just like the rest of us. Boy, I mean, I'm telling you, it's still a hard sell today, trying to convince doctors about this. In 1950, oh, my gosh even harder.

To the point where I tell the story of this one study that this pair of scientists, this odd couple of scientists at the University of Chicago does about that time. It's somewhere in the ballpark of 1950. I don't remember the exact year. They find that when they fast rodents, they live vastly longer and they almost completely eliminate, I believe it was breast cancer was the one that they were looking at in these rodents. They had various groups of rodents and I'm saying rodents because I don't remember off the top of my head whether it's mice or rats, but they had various groups.

One, they fasted every other day. The other group, they fasted every second day. Another group, they fasted every third day. Then there was a control group that ate normally. Well, the one that did the best was the one that fasted the most. All right, but it turns out that those mice ended up being much smaller. They didn't grow to full size. Now, we now have the science to know that's because our growth hormones and our growth mechanisms are intricately involved in our longevity markers. You can grow more slowly and be smaller and live longer, or you can grow fully and eat as much as you want and stimulate your growth hormones and not live as long seems to be the message. But they didn't know that then. So, what did they see? They saw, “Well, hey, look, fasting seems to be able-- well, it certainly makes these guys live longer, almost practically eliminates one of the most dreaded forms of cancer.”

But guess what? There's a problem here. They don't grow to full size. And they could not reconcile that. They could not recommend to people, “Hey, we might have a cure for cancer here or something close to it, but you're not going to be as huge and big and vigorous and so on as you might be.” So, they played down their own finding and played up one of the other lesser fasting groups who fasted less often and got fewer benefits and so on, because you wouldn't be hale and hearty and strapping if you've-- and I'm like, I shoot, I would trade two inches for 20 years of life. [laughs] It's not even a question for me, but it's a very, very difficult thing for people to accept. Again, just another aspect of it being so very counterintuitive.

Melanie Avalon: It's also similar to this idea about the assumptions that they make on the findings and what people would want or willing or not willing to do. You talk about the role of advances in epilepsy and the keto diet and fasting, and then this recurring theme where basically, I'm going to say they say but they say that it's too hard to fast to address epilepsy. So, it's not even presented as an option to patients or to parents who have kids who are epileptic. They aren't even exposed to this thing that could possibly really help their children because it's just assumed it would be too difficult, which is very, I don't know. It's frustrating.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. You can understand where it stems from. I mean, you have doctors who have a very short amount of time with each patient, and they're supposed to tell them what exactly in their eight minutes of contact with the patient, “Hey, guess what? Your diet is terrible, so you need to completely overhaul your entire diet if you want to live longer.” The few times that they try to do that or you've got eight minutes with a smoker and you're trying to tell them how to quit smoking. That smoker has 25 years of smoking behind her, and she is not going to hear what you have to say in eight minutes. So, they get this impression that's not completely undeserved of. Look, when we give some kind of advice, not all advice, but when we give some advice, it is very hard to get people to follow it.

It's hard enough when it's like, you could try eating less processed food or you could try stopping smoking, which everyone agrees with. Gosh, if you're telling them something crazy like, “Hey, how about fasting?” [laughs] What are the odds that they're going to be able to adopt it? I think it is true that if you only have a few minutes with a patient, the odds are very, very slim. However, that's the problem of the medical model. It's not a problem with fasting and it's not a problem with patients because there are a lot of patients who, if you said in those seven minutes or whatever, “Hey, I think you should really try fasting, I don't have time to go into it all with you. Here's what I can tell you in five minutes, and here are some books and websites and so on that you can go and look at, podcasts you can listen to,” and that might actually have some kind of effect, but most doctors aren't thinking that way. They're thinking very, very short term.

Melanie Avalon: Something I wish we could do. There's an issue surrounding it because I don't know if it requires deception, maybe it doesn't. I wish there could be a system where there could be a pill that's a placebo pill and it's a fasting pill. And the directions for taking it is you take this pill, but you can't eat a certain amount of time before or after. So then, you can give them the pill, but really you're just forcing them into a fast.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, that's great. You have hit upon exactly what some of the United States is anyway, earliest fasting doctors came up with in the early 19th century. One of the doctors I write about, Isaac Jennings, who was this doctor in Connecticut, noticed that people seemed to get better when they stopped eating and noticed that they did better than with the so-called medicines that he was giving them, which were just almost completely useless. So, he did that. He tried an experiment where he created bread pills. He just made pills himself out of flour and water, colored them to make them look like the pills that you would buy from the apothecary and so on, gave them to people and said, your instruction is to take this pill, drink nothing but water, and I'll see you in three days. The results were convincing enough to him that he simply stopped prescribing medicines about 98% of the time and simply prescribed these placebos and then eventually felt bad about it and told his patients about it. He thought for sure that they would run him out of town. So, he had set up.

Melanie Avalon: But they did it, right?

Steve Hendricks: No, they didn't. They took it really well and he stayed there in Connecticut for another several years and then eventually went off and practiced in Ohio. But, yeah, it seemed to have worked.

Melanie Avalon: How do you feel about Valter Longo and his approach to fasting and his choice to go the fasting mimicking diet route? I think a lot of it probably involves a lot of these reasons and forces at play as to what you can actually do and get funding for and prescribe to people and make actionable.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. So, I think, Valter Longo, who's a professor scientist at the University of Southern California, I think he's fantastic. He has done some outstanding work. I do have some criticisms which I mentioned in the book, but I understand why he's gone the way he's gone. His big breakthrough, he's had a lot of big breakthroughs. There are people who are pushing him for a Nobel Prize, and he would certainly have my vote if I were on the committee. But one of his big breakthroughs was in fasting for cancer treatment, and he had this terrible experience. What he basically found is that fasting can weaken cancer cells and it can protect healthy cells. So, it weakens the cancer by starving it out of its preferred fuel glucose and shutting down the growth factors that cancer hijacks to spread and divide and increasing the immune cell activity of these cells that go around and zap our cancer cells.

Meanwhile, the healthy cells bunker down. They go into a protect and repair mode. So, when you give chemo or radiation and you fast people during that, the healthy cells either ignore it or if they get dinged up a little bit, they're great at making repairs. So, in human trials, he found that people had less nausea, less vomiting, less headache, less fatigue if they fasted during their chemotherapy. We know that's for sure in humans and then in mice what he has seen is that the cancer cells that are weakened, more of them are killed by the chemo or the radiation, so more of it dies. And because the healthy cells are protected, you can ratchet up the chemo and the radiation, you can kill more of the cancer. There are human trials going on now to see if that part of killing more cancer is also true in humans. We know that the protecting you from chemo side effects is true in humans. Okay, so I go into all that to say that's amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Right. [laughs]

Steve Hendricks: He has found a way to make chemotherapy less miserable and to make it more potent. So, he takes his findings, which at that point had been in mice, to oncologists at these various hospitals that participate in research studies all over the country and says, “Hey, would you enroll your patients in my fasting trial? Here's what I got. It seems extremely promising,” and it should have taken them about two years to get all the people do the trial, get the data written up and all that. It took them like, five years, and the main reason was because oncologists said no. Many of them just wouldn't take calls from his lab because they thought this was just sheer quackery. They didn't want their patients fasting because patients lose weight on chemotherapy, and so they were afraid that they were going to get too skinny.

Okay, that makes total sense. What Longo told them was, like, “Look, in my mice and in these human anecdotes that we have, people actually don't lose much weight because they're not as nauseated from the chemo. But even the ones who lose weight, they gain it right back in two or three days when they refeed. This is not a problem.” But oncologists could not hear it, and so Longo decides, “Ah, crap, fasting is just a dead end. I'm not going to spend my whole career beating my head against the wall. I'm going to instead try to see if we can come up with a diet that mimics fasting.” I'm sure you've discussed this on your podcast more than once, but so his fasting-mimicking diet, he actually came up with two.

One for kind of more healthy people to use and one for chemo patients to use. Oncologists have, in fact, proven much more willing to use that. And for that matter, for the healthier people who don't have cancer, but maybe they have prediabetes or high blood pressure or whatever, other doctors have been very excited to do that. They say, “Oh, so we can give our patient a little bit of food and still get most of the benefits of fasting.” Probably not all of them, but most of the benefits, great. So, that's really good. I think that's fantastic.

Here's the problem. My problem is that in a world where science wasn't controlled by what you can sell and instead was controlled by what's best for the patient, we would have trials that put the fasting-mimicking diet head-to-head against water-only fasting. And we would see which one does best and then people could have a choice. Look, not everyone wants to fast, even when threatened with death from cancer. But if you knew let's just speculate here that if you did the fasting-mimicking diet during your chemo for your cancer, your odds of survival jumped from 3 years to 15 years. If you did water only fasting, they jumped from 3 years to 25 years. Well, you could make an educated choice about what you wanted to do.

Unfortunately, no one's going to pay for a randomized controlled trial to compare fasting with a fasting-mimicking diet, because you just can't make much money off of fasting. Fasting-mimicking diet is something you can sell. They go for about 200 bucks or so for a five-day package. It's not like a ton of money, but that's money that people, investors can invest in and so, we're getting trials on the fasting-mimicking diet, which are great, but they're not being compared for the most part maybe at all, to fasting, which I think is a real shame.

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I would hypothesize if they suspected that the fasting-mimicking diet would outperform fasting, that they might.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. What is their incentive to prove that there might be something better out there than the FMD, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Have you done ProLon?

Steve Hendricks: I have not. I've been curious about it, but I have never done it.

Melanie Avalon: I ordered it. I was going to do it. It was a no go for me. When I'm just doing water fasting, like, not eating, I'm good, but having to eat like a tiny small amount of food, it just makes me ravenous. I think I tried like one day I was like, “no.”

Steve Hendricks: [laughs] Yeah. People tell me that you get used to it, but yeah, I have wondered the same thing as to what it does for your hunger. Doesn't seem likely to be great. On the other hand, it's only four or five days.

Melanie Avalon: Have you watched, was it Gwyneth Paltrow's Goop Lab on Netflix?

Steve Hendricks: I have not watched it.

Melanie Avalon: She has an episode. One episode is with Dr. Valter Longo and she does ProLon. And then one episode-- was it the same episode? I think she also interviews Dr. Alan Goldhamer, I think. So, fasting clinics today, what was your experience at TrueNorth Health Center like?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so TrueNorth in Santa Rosa, California, which is about an hour North of San Francisco, is America's oldest and largest fasting clinic. There are only like three in the entire country. The other two are just kind of sole practitioners or in one case a husband-and-wife team who see a handful of patients a year. At TrueNorth, they've got 70 rooms, they're seeing 1500 people. Inpatient who are coming there to fast or to eat a vastly reduced diet all year long. They have an enormous amount of experience. I will say, as positive and glowing things about Alan Goldhamer as I said about Valter Longo. He has been a pioneer. He, for the longest time, was the only place you could fast under medical supervision in the United States. He kept fasting alive in this country at a time when it probably should have died, but for his persistence.

Best of all is that unlike previous fasting doctors, Herbert Shelton, who did an awful lot of good, a fasting doctor of the 20th century, the most prominent American fasting doctor until Goldhamer. Shelton was not very scientific and didn't have much interest in having anything to do with science because researchers had so strongly rejected everything that he practiced and preached. So, what Alan Goldhamer said, however, was very early on in his career, he's been fasting people since 1984, I think he's 62 or 63 now. He said, “Look, if fasting is ever to achieve widespread acceptance, we have to put it on a scientific basis.”

And so, from very early on, he was collecting data from his patients about how they improved on fasting. He eventually, probably about 15 years ago or so, founded a foundation to undertake research on fasting. What he'll tell you is if you go to TrueNorth, he'll say this looks like a fasting clinic. But in fact, what we are is a research center disguised as a fasting clinic. He keeps the rates there extremely low so that he can get people who will come and fast long enough to get well. He has, for the last 20 years been publishing little by little, little more each year, these scientific studies that document and validate some of the reversals of disease that he and his staff have achieved through fasting.

Melanie Avalon: Doesn't he have the largest documented drop in blood pressure?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, that's truly the-- if you want both a very heartening and very sad snapshot of fasting and science today, it's that. So, yeah, his first study was one that he co-wrote with T. Colin Campbell, who is the author of The China Study, a very respected Cornell nutritional biochemist. What they found in Goldhamer's data-- So, what they did was they took, I believe it was 174 consecutive patients. There was no cherry picking. Every patient who walked in the door at TrueNorth who had high blood pressure and fasted was enrolled in this study. What they found was every single one of those people on high blood pressure, their blood pressure dropped remarkably. All of them were able to go off their high blood pressure medication if they were on it. And those who had the worst high blood pressure did the best. Those in stage 3 hypertension had a drop of 60 points in their systolic pressure. That's the top number 60 overall.

Among all their patients with high blood pressure, the average drop was 37/13 points, which, as you say, is the largest drop ever reported for any therapy in the peer-reviewed scientific literature. Anti-hypertension pill doctors are happy, you get a 10-point drop. These drops of, on average, 37 points, that's just completely off the charts. The need for this is dire because we have gosh, what is it. I think it's 500,000 Americans every year are going to die of at least high blood pressure being one of the contributing causes to their death, and sometimes the cause outright. Half of all Americans get high blood pressure. American adults, and I think it's like three quarters of us by the time we're in our 70s.

The American Heart Association says still to this day that there's no cure. Yet we have studies going back more than 20 years showing that, in fact, you can completely reverse high blood pressure. One of the great contributions of Alan Goldhamer was-- so scientists have known casually for about the last, oh, I don't know, 80 or 90, maybe 100 years that you could reverse high blood pressure when you fast. However, when people go back to eating, their high blood pressure always went back up. So, it was kind of thought of as a party trick or something. But what Goldhamer did was-- what a bunch of other fasting doctors did, which was just to ask the simple question, “Well, if the disease goes away when we take the food away, was there maybe something in the food that was contributing to the disease?” Like so many other doctors, fasting doctors throughout history, he read the science and experimented with what kept his patients' diseases away.

He settled on a practically unprocessed, certainly minimally processed vegan diet. It's so unprocessed, he doesn't even use added oil, salt, or sugar. But by doing this, he did something that no previous doctor had ever achieved, which was keeping his patient's high blood pressure away when they went back to eating. So, we have what seems to be a cure for high blood pressure. There have been multiple follow-up studies that Goldhamer has done. The most recent one was done with a researcher at the Mayo Clinic and it was published in a fairly well recognized and prestigious journal. The catch is these studies are not randomized controlled trials. Now, you could conduct a randomized controlled trial, I don't think you'd find anything different. I think you'd find the exact same thing. There's almost nothing in these studies that suggests that these are anything other than legitimate findings, but you can't be 100% certain with something like this unless you do an RCT.

The problem is those are extremely expensive to conduct. And so, TrueNorth hasn't conducted any randomized controlled trials because they can't afford them. The government's not giving money to people like TrueNorth to do fasting research. Of course, who else is funding it? Big Pharma, big medical device companies, so on. They're not putting forward any money for fasting because they can't make any money off it. So, sadly, although this cure possible, probable I would say cure is out there and known in the scientific literature, it's been almost universally ignored.

Melanie Avalon: It's crazy because not only is it ignored and there's all these forces keeping it from being studied and happening, on top of that, you talk about the issues he's encountered, which people trying to shut him down and the authorities, and that happened a lot historically with a lot of these different people. So, it's just very interesting. How was your experience? How long did you go there for?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, my wife and I, in I believe it was June of 2021, we went there for two weeks. So, when you fast at a fasting clinic, they typically will fast you for however many number of days, and then you need to stay there while you re-feed because your re-feeding needs to be carefully calibrated and supervised. You stay there half the number of days you fasted. I think we fasted nine and a half days and re-fed for four and a half days.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Speaking of that, I love how you hacked the German clinic situation by-- didn't you fast before so that you could get a longer fast there?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so I went there in part because I was having some health struggles that I hoped to correct. What almost all fasting doctors have found for the last, let's say, 200 years, is that longer fasts tend to better than a series of shorter fasts. However, if you don't have the time or you don't have the money, because some of these places can be quite expensive, they say, well, the next best thing would be to do a shorter fast. So, actually, before both of those, before I went to TrueNorth and before I went to the Buchinger Wilhelmi Clinic in Germany, fasted for I think it was maybe five days or so on my own water only, and then re-fed for a week or something, and then went to the clinic and fasted there for 9 or 10 days.

Melanie Avalon: Just speaking of listeners are going to have to get your book and hear your experience, particularly at that German clinic and like with the enemas and colonics and things like that. It's really funny. It's really funny. You tell the story really well, your experience there. So, wow. Well, this has been so amazing for listeners. We only barely touched on everything that is in this book. There's so much more. I will just direct them to the book. Things like we didn't even talk about circadian rhythm and a lot of the studies today and things like that. So, listeners definitely have to check it out. The artwork on the book, why did you choose the leaf?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so I didn't choose it, but I did approve it. It was something that the graphic designer came up with. But the reason that it was chosen and the reason that I like it is it's symbolic of fasting. It's a leaf for people who haven't seen the cover. It's a leaf that has, a fall leaf. It's changing colors. So, you have in this fasting, some symbolic kind of almost like dying, where we're not eating, we're not getting nourishment, our body is bunkering down in a way that's not part of our normal go getter active kind of life. But from this comes a rebirth. We don't have the whole tree here and we're not seeing that eventually it's going to grow new leaves having shed this old leaf. But I think that's why the artist chose it and certainly why I like it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I love it. I knew there was something behind it. It's a beautiful book, by the way. I have it right here in front of me.

Steve Hendricks: I think they did a very nice job with the design.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's amazing and very substantial [laughs] as listeners have not figured that up by now. So, maybe one last question about everything. This book and this work was the history of fasting up until now. What do you think the future of fasting will look like?

Steve Hendricks: That's a really good question and I'm not sure. One of the biggest discoveries to me-- I got really deeply interested in fasting. I mentioned coming to fasting to lose weight and so on, but I've stuck with fasting and I'm most interested in it because of its ability to heal, its ability to reverse diseases that we do have and prevent diseases that we don't yet have. What I have found in the couple of months since the book has been out and talking with people is most people just aren't interested in that, which really surprises me. Most people are either-- the two biggest reasons I get are one, I want to lose weight, which is great. Nothing wrong if you have excess weight. You will be healthier and less disease prone if you do not have excess weight. We know that.

But on the other hand, and the other thing that people tell me is I want to fast in order to be kind of more efficient. I want to be able to be, whatever, a better CEO or a better capitalist in some way so I can go out and crush my opposition or something. But fasting can make you more efficient, it can make the mind in some cases work better and so on. It's not to diminish either of those reasons terribly. But when I try to tell people, are you interested in maybe not getting cancer or something. The interest level drops quite a bit. Going into all this, because I sort of assumed because where the research is going is for this longer-term health. The research is heading in the direction of more disease prevention and more disease reversal. That is, I think, almost certainly where the science is going. It's looking at how can we use fasting to stay healthier, not just lose weight or be mentally tougher or whatever it is.

However, that's not where I at least so far, I'm finding that a lot of the public are and I'm talking about people who are interested in fasting and are perhaps fasting themselves. This junction between where the science is and where the sort of public mood is, it will be curious to see how that plays out. I kind of hope that the science-- well, I definitely hope that the science sort of pulls more people along and more people learn that, like, “Look, fasting is a long-term health-giving thing and can add years to our life if we do it right.” But whether that will happen, who knows?

Melanie Avalon: I mean, it kind of speaks to human nature, I think, as humans we focus on what we can experience now. That would be lose the weight, feel the productivity, but we're not so good at looking at the long-term benefits.

Steve Hendricks: Absolutely. We are very short-term thinkers, it would seem. But what surprised me is, as I say, I got into it for the losing weight thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think it's fantastic if you have some extra weight you want to shed and so on. What surprises me is that once you're in it for that then trying to say, “Hey, so now that you've done it and seen that it's doable doing this somewhat periodically, whether daily intermittent fasting or whether prolonged multi-day fasting, it could help you.” Yeah, I've yet to see an overwhelming interest in that. Maybe my book will be a small nudge for some people in that direction.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, longevity science is what I'm obsessed with. I would say I do fasting for the longevity benefits primarily, but it even for me comes back to now. I think I do it now because I want to feel younger now. I think it makes me-- the focus is always on the present, I think. So, yeah, it's really interesting. So how do you practice fasting now? Do you do it daily?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so they're basically speaking two types of fasting. There's the prolonged multi-day fasting, which is mostly what we've talked about, and I do a fast of about one week twice a year. But I think the most important one is actually the daily fasting. And I do, do that. It was not something that I did before doing the research on this book, but I became extremely interested in it. We're probably running out of time here, but I'll just tease your listeners with the surprising thing that the research has found is about daily fasting. I mean, just in the last like three, four years, this is really new stuff.

One piece of it is not news at all. It's that if we eat in a shorter window each day and we fast for longer each night, we increase the amount of repairs. A lot of people know this. That's why you have these 16:8 eating patterns and so on, where you're eating in an 8-hour window and you're fasting for 16 hours a night or whatever, that's great. What a lot of people don't know is they tend to usually do that by skipping breakfast and then they put all their food in the afternoon and the evening. It turns out that our circadian rhythms have just hardwired us and there is virtually nothing, it seems that we can do to change this.

We process nutrients far better and we end up being far healthier if our window is in the morning, if our eating window starts an hour or two after we wake up. For a lot of people, where the science is pointed is it seems like the healthiest eating window out there is probably from, let's say 08:00 AM or so to 02:00 PM. And the thing that I always hasten to add after that because that completely freaks people out. I mean, I hated hearing it. I was a late-night eater. I was a breakfast skipper before working on this book. I just thought this was the worst news in the world that I had come across. I've actually found that it's just really not at all difficult for me to do. I have more energy. I would not go back to eating the way that I did before. Now that I'm eating one of these sorts of 8 to 2, 9 to 3 eating windows every day.

But there is a compromise for people who still want to eat dinner. It seems the science seems to be pointing to the fact that if you put most of your calories in the day in that early window, so that means a bigger breakfast, bigger lunch, and then keep dinner light and early, you can probably get most of the same benefits as someone who's eating just entirely within that window. So, it turns out that the adage that was coined in the last century to eat breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince, and dinner like a pauper actually turns out to be pretty good advice. There's a whole chapter on how the science came to this and hopefully I've presented it in a convincing way because I think it's very good science. It's very convincing, it is extremely counterintuitive, but that could be contributing to a lot of our bad health. The fact that so many of us are eating late and eating big late.

Melanie Avalon: I was really excited to read that chapter, especially because I am haunted by this question. Well, first of all, just my own biases. I gravitate towards eating late at night as like a person, historically, I always have been. I get so many questions from listeners all the time about this, about early versus late eating. And so, a few months ago, it was longer than that. I was like, I'm going to try to just read everything I can read and be as unbiased as I can and see what I think it shows about early versus late night eating. I thought it was going to be hands down. Early eating was the way to go. What I felt looking at everything and I mean, we could talk about this for hours and there're so many studies, but I felt like from what I saw that probably late afternoon to early evening might be the most beneficial window just hormonally if looking at the hormonal profiles.

But some of my concerns or my things I'm curious about is the role of bias in breakfast eating studies and then the healthy user bias that we've been told for so long that eating breakfast is healthy. It's hard to separate that. So, the people who eat breakfast are probably more often doing healthy lifestyle habits. And then a third piece was the lack-- I wish there were more studies directly comparing because there aren't many. I tried to find as many as I could, but there aren't that many that directly compare an early window to an evening window, both completely fasted and a short window.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I agree with you. There's definitely a shortage of studies out there. And you're right, breakfast skippers, I was a breakfast skipper for 50 years, [laughs] lumping myself in this category, but breakfast skippers tend to be less healthy. I mean, I'm not talking necessarily about people like you and me, Melanie, but I'm talking about alcoholics will skip breakfast because they're sleeping through breakfast. Smokers will skip breakfast because the cigarette suppresses their appetite. People who are overweight and obese and therefore less healthy, by definition are often skipping breakfast because they're trying to lose weight and some of them binge later in the day. And that's all to say. There are all these confounding factors that scientists try to control for, but there's no perfect study out there that controls for all those perfectly and ends up with the conclusion, yeah, breakfast skipping is unhealthy.

But I try to present what I feel is the preponderance of the evidence that is saying basically breakfast skipping is unhealthy and with enough detail that the reader can make up her mind about that herself. The one thing that I would say is I don't know a single researcher who has looked at these early time restricted feeding windows. So, you're eating whatever from 08:00 AM to 02:00 PM, rather than eating from noon to 06:00 PM or 04:00 PM to 10:00 PM or whatever it is. I don't know a single person researching the field who wanted to find the answer, “Oh yeah, dinner is bad for you.” [laughs] So, the fact that they have consistently found this answer and there aren't like a thousand studies on here, we're talking a dozen or something, that they've consistently found this. You're right, there haven't been perfect head to heads on all of these, but I think the balance of the evidence has really shifted.

If you go to my website, which is stevehendricks.org, there's a Frequently Asked Questions page, and I focus in that chapter on one really, really very well-done study by a researcher at the University of Alabama, Birmingham named Courtney Peterson. A question that I've gotten since then is, “Do you have anything other than just Peterson's studies? Are you just relying on her two, three studies that you talk about in the book?” At the time that I wrote about it, I didn't feel that there was a lot of fantastic science out there that was as good as hers that merited taking up the space. But on my website, on that Frequently Asked Question page, I discussed three or four other studies. Most of them have taken place in China. They seem to me, anyway, to be very well conducted and very well controlled. They do do some head-to-head stuff.

If we have someone eating from, let's say, 07:00 AM to 03:00 PM or something and then we have another group of people eating from noon to 08:00 PM. Who does better? And they're tracking longevity biomarkers and they're tracking disease biomarkers, everything you would expect, cholesterol and blood sugar and things like that. It's just to me, anyway, it just reads really overwhelmingly in favor of these morning eating windows. But having said that, the science is still young. Who knows what we'll find? What does seem more and more clear, though, is when they compare to really late eating windows, like the one meal a day, just being dinner. You're eating from, let's say, 06:00 to 08:00 PM or something. Those really seem not to pan out on a great many of the longevity markers. You might look into some of those and see what you think. Shoot me an email, tell me if you agree or disagree.

Melanie Avalon: Just some brief comments. One, I think you did a really excellent job of, like you said, laying out all these different studies and acknowledging when there are conflicting findings. It was a very, very valuable chapter, and I think everybody should read it. I know so, what I don't think that's ideal at all. I wish I wasn't like this. I do think, though, if it's between eating all day, if you are a late-night eater and you had to choose between eating all day or having a late-night window.

I mean, I know you had the Matson study that compared like a 5 to 9 window to an all-day eating and didn't seem to find benefits. What I'm trying to say is I think finding the fasting window that you can stick to and do consistently might outweigh forcing yourself into a different eating window that is not as enjoyable or that you can't stick to as easily because it's not what you thrive on.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I think we don't have enough studies to say for sure, but I think what you're proposing there is entirely possible. It could be that, yeah, it's healthier to do a long fast each night but eat in the morning and early afternoon. But compared to eating all day, it may in fact be pretty healthy by comparison to do what you're talking about doing. So, that's entirely possible. I don't think we have enough research to prove it or disprove it. The one thing that I will say is, again, I was one of these people who I mean, my favorite countries in the world are like to visit are Spain and Italy. That's because they eat and drink till all hours of the night. That's my preferred lifestyle. I have always been a nighttime person. I did not want to make this change, but I thought I would make the experiment.

I was just stunned in three days, all of a sudden, this 50-year-old habit of mine of eating dinner at night and eating well late into the night with bedtime snacks and so on, it just vanished. It just absolutely went away as though my body had been, as I say in the book, waiting for me to do this all along. It just felt so natural. The research shows if that is in fact something like what's going on, it's probably because I'm eating now more in sync with what my circadian rhythms are asking me to do. So, the one thing I would say is, try it for a week, see what you think. If you get a week where you can do it, try amending it, try playing with it. And you're right. Like, different people will come to different conclusions and they'll have different things that they feel comfortable with and different things that they can do with their work schedule and not do. But you might just experiment with shifting some of your calories earlier in the day, see what you think yourself.

Melanie Avalon: I am all about self-experimentation finding what works for you. Before, when you're eating a dinner, were you doing intermittent fasting with that or were you just eating throughout the day and eating more at night.

Steve Hendricks: There was a period before I-- as I was starting research on this book, where I had shifted to this daily intermittent fasting and my eating window was exactly the one that I just criticized, which was I skipped breakfast. I would have my first meal around 11:00 AM or noon and try to have my last food by about 08:00 or so at night. I'd say the calories were about evenly divided between sort of lunchtime and dinnertime.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, got you. Yeah. So, well, listeners get the book, read it, read all the chapters, and I can't wait to hear what people think. The last question that I ask every single guest on this show, and it's just because I realize more and more each day how important mindset is. We didn't even talk about you have a whole fascinating chapter on Russia and fasting for mental health and the effects on the brain and fascinating things people with psychiatric disorders have experienced historically with fasting. So, listeners will just have to get the book to read that. But what is something that you're grateful for?

Steve Hendricks: Well, as we're recording this, Thanksgiving has just happened and more than anything else, I've been thinking over the Thanksgiving long weekend that I am grateful that I have had the opportunity to share this information with people. We didn't talk much about my own health struggles, but I really do credit some of the information that I found in this book with basically having saved my life. I'm in an awfully privileged, fortunate position that I'm able to write a book and share these ideas and hopefully help some other people the way that some of these ideas helped me. So, I'm most grateful at this moment for the opportunity to get to do that.

Melanie Avalon: I cannot thank you enough for what you're doing because nobody has done this. I kept thinking so much when I was reading the book. I was like, I can't believe that I have been writing, thinking, talking about fasting for so long, and this is all just completely new information to me. My mind was being blown. I think you've done a huge service to humanity to compile all this information in a really wonderful read. I can't thank you enough. It's amazing. I look forward to your future book. Are you writing one now?

Steve Hendricks: No, I'm busy with podcasts.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes, all the interviews. [laughs]

Steve Hendricks: Which is fantastic, I'm very happy to have them, but no, I've got some ideas floating around in my head, but nothing concrete.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, I will eagerly look forward to your future work and hopefully we can connect again in the future. Again, thank you so much for everything that you're doing. Oh, yeah. How can people best follow your work? What links?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so I'm not huge on social media. I am on Instagram. I think it's @stevehendricks99 is my handle. But best way to stay in touch is through my website, which is just stevehendricks.org. As I mentioned, the book is not a prescriptive book. It's not a how to about fasting, though you can certainly glean a lot of how to information from it. But I've gotten a zillion questions about how do I do this, how do I do that. My Frequently Asked Questions page probably has, I don't know, 10,000 words of answers to the most common questions I get. So, a lot of people have found that useful. If you want to get in touch, just shoot me an email. It's on my contact page.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, I will put links to all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much again for your time. I treasure it. I do not take it for granted. And again, thank you for everything that you're doing and hopefully we can talk again in the future.

Steve Hendricks: Thanks, Melanie. It's been a great pleasure.

Melanie Avalon: Thanks, Steve.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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STUFF WE LIKE

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LINKS

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Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Cynthia's Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging

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Apr 23

Episode 314: New Co-Host Announced!, Uneven Fat Loss, Inflammatory Fat Cells, Topical Fat Burners, Thermogenic Supplements, Undereating, Safe Olive Oil, Polyphenols, And More!

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Welcome to Episode 314 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

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SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 3lb Bone In Chicken Thighs For One Year PLUS $20 Off Your First Box!!

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

BEAUTYCOUNTER GIVEAWAY: go to Apple Podcasts and Leave a review and/or your thoughts about the new co-host or update your previous review and then send a screenshot to questions@ifpodcast.com to enter to win!

20:20 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

23:20 - Listener Q&A: Ashely - Uneven Fat Loss

36:30 - Listener Q&A: Diane - Thermogenics

42:00 - AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8: Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

44:45 - Listener Q&A: Amy - What Should We Look For In Safe Olive Oils?

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 314 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out. So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream and then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 314 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. So, for listeners who did not listen last week or have not been getting the updates, haven't been in the Facebook group, this is Cynthia's last episode on the show. We talked about this at length at the end of the last episode. But for listeners who are just listening to this episode, I know we talked about it recently, but would you like to talk a little bit about what's happening in your life and your experience with the show and where you're going from here?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. So, in Episode 313 I announced that I was going to be stepping away from podcasting duties for Intermittent Fasting Podcast, and I thanked the community, the IF Podcast team behind the scenes, and Melanie and Gin for really creating a wonderfully enriching and warm and welcoming hello, when I started 10 months ago. My business is going in a different direction and so I hired a CIO. So, Chief Information Officer, and we've gotten laser focused on the next steps in my business. I just felt in a lot of different ways that my attention needed to be focused on those two or three things in my business, and that everything else I needed to kind of reprioritize.

So, like I shared last week, Melanie and I are leaving on good terms. This is not a breakup. This is a pause. We will continue to be supportive of one another's platforms, agendas, podcasts. I say podcasts with plurals because we both have one of our own outside the context of IF Podcast. And so, really taking the opportunity to say thank you again and then super excited to know who's going to be stepping into the podcasting co-hosting duties, as this is someone that I'm quite fond of and I think will do a wonderful job. But I'll let Melanie share with you who that is.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, well, first of all, so just to respond to that, when I said this last week, I don't want to be redundant, but it's just been such an incredible adventure having Cynthia co-hosting this show. It was really exciting to see how the show really changed, like the dynamics of it as far as the content that we got to talk about. You just have such incredible medical expertise, when it comes to fasting and specifically women and hormones and all of the things. I know that it's just been such a valuable resource for people. So, I can't thank you enough for your time, for what you brought to the show, for our friendship. It's just been really, really wonderful. Like, you were saying how it's not a breakup. It kind of feels more like in school, there're different grades and different classes and different things in life, but those end just by necessity of that was the thing that you were learning and experiencing at that time. So, this has been like a really incredible chapter of the show that I am so, so grateful for. I know that Cynthia and I will be talking a lot in the future and hopefully seeing each other in person, which will be very exciting.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that would be fun.

Melanie Avalon: That'll be really exciting. I still haven't even seen Gin, actually, which is crazy.

Cynthia Thurlow: I've met Gin multiple times. Gin is great. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe someday we'll all be at something together. But I also want to say that I really, really support when you first told me about this. I completely understand and understood and I am all about, like, there's so much opportunity and potential and things to do in life. And I think in order to really have the best experience of your life and do everything that you want to do, you have to make those hard decisions about what to focus on and where the energy needs to be invested because I wish we had unlimited time and energy, but we don't. So, I'm all about putting your time and energy where it needs to be for you at your life at this moment. So, just want to say I'm completely supportive of everything that you're doing and we'll have to bring you back for a reunion episode.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that would be fun. For listeners, I know sometimes change seems scary and I remind everyone that change is a part of life, and it's like the ebb and flow of our lives and so it's wonderful to have had the opportunity to be connected to the podcast and now I can be laser focused in my business and kind of move things forward. As I shared, I've got a junior and essentially a rising senior and a rising sophomore, and they're only home for a couple more years. So, all my free time is really deliberate at this point and eventually I'll be an empty nester, which is kind of scary to imagine. I'm sure the doodles will be happy. My husband will probably be happy, but it'll be a big adjustment. So, thank you for everything and for the community that I've been a part of.

Melanie Avalon: That will be one thing that will be weird. I feel like I know so much about your daily life and kids and everything, but now I'll have to keep up. I mean, we'll still be talking, but we won't be talking quite as regularly. So, I wish you all the best with the kids and the family and all the things.

Cynthia Thurlow: Likewise. Likewise. We'll get to see, you know, you get a little bird's eye view into your friends lives on social media, but yeah, we'll have to carve out time to catch up on occasion.

Melanie Avalon: Definitely, definitely, definitely. Especially if you have a future book or something that would be really exciting.

Cynthia Thurlow: That is the goal. That is the goal, for sure.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, the announcement about the new co-host, who I am so excited. What it's going to look like going forward? This will be the last episode with Cynthia. Next week, I'm actually, as a kind of like, what's the word, an intermission, [chuckles] I'm going to air a conversation that I had with Steve Hendricks, who wrote a book called The Oldest Cure in the World: Adventures in the Art and Science of Fasting. That book I've talked about it on this show before was mind blowing. I thought I knew a lot about fasting. You just learn so much, how fasting has appeared throughout the ages, throughout religions, throughout culture, and it's not what you think. [laughs] You'll have to listen to the A, read the book and or listen to the episode to find out. There're a lot of misconceptions we have about fasting as far as how it manifested in religions, how it was used, like Hippocrates and the Greeks and fasting and then a lot of drama. A lot of really crazy, controversial stuff with fasting. It's crazy.

Oh, this is something, Cynthia, that really stuck with me from that book. It's so interesting to think for the longest time we didn't realize what was fueling us during a fast. So, it didn't occur. I should find the actual date, but now it's just so obvious to us. Oh, you're burning your fat. That's why you lose weight. But for a long time and again, this is like relatively recently, there were all these theories about how people fasted, like where their energy was coming from. People thought that it was a spirit or a vibe or there was this one moment I should probably give more details, but basically they thought that the energy came from another person.

Oh, one group thought that it was from-- because women's menstruation would go away if they severely fasted. They thought it was like that was what they were fueling on while fasting. It's just really interesting to think that to us, it seems so obvious. Yeah, you're losing fat that's what it is. But that this was not a known fact for quite a while. It's kind of mind blowing to think about.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'll have to check that book out.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's so interesting. He talks about the role of-- this was really controversial on my Instagram. He talks about how fasting was used as a control mechanism for women with some religions. That is just I mean, it's just crazy stuff. So, in any case, sorry, I'm on the tangent. I'm going to air that episode with Steve because I think everybody will find it so interesting. So, that'll be the intermission.

And then the new co-host is Vanessa Spina, and a lot of listeners are probably familiar with her. She is the best-selling author of a book called Keto Essentials. But she runs the Optimal Protein Podcast. Her brand is Ketogenic Girl. Her show, I think, used to be called-- did her show used to be called Ketogenic Girl podcast?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yep.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. When did she rebrand?

Cynthia Thurlow: Maybe in the last two years.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it wasn't that long ago. So, she's just a beautiful spirit. I love her, I've been friends with her. I was on her show probably a year and a half ago or two years ago or so and that's when I first met her. And she's just incredible. She's very smart, very intelligent, very much into the role of protein like Cynthia and I are. So, there'll be that theme continuing, which is a good thing. She's very into the things that Cynthia and I would always talk about. She's also a Peter Attia fangirl, so that can continue. But she's just very smart.

Her degree, well, she's a sport nutrition specialist. She completed a two-year biomedical science program at the University of Toronto because she has a love of biochemistry and physiology. And I just think she's going to bring a lot to the show. It's definitely going to be a different perspective. She's not a doctor or anything like that. I think one thing will be really nice is she's the first co-host that has-- well, again, so she has a young son. This will be the first time having a co-host with a young child. So, I'm just really, really excited. You guys are going to love Vanessa.

Oh, she also created and you'll hear all of this when I actually have her on in her own story. But she created a tone device which measures breath acetone. It's a ketone breath analyzer like she made that, how cool. She also recently launched a red-light therapy line as well. So, again, fits in the family here and being an entrepreneur, creating her own products in the sphere. I can't wait for you guys to meet her. We are going to do a special incentive. This is similar to what we did with Cynthia. You guys responded really well to this, and I'm really excited to do it again, which is reviews of the show help so much more than most people realize.

So, we really want to make it welcoming for Vanessa. We are going to give away a prize. You guys know that I love Beautycounter, Cynthia loves Beautycounter as well, which is non-toxic skincare and makeup that is free of endocrine disruptors and will revolutionize your skin and friends, endocrine disruptors are so, so huge. I'm actually going to talk more about my theory surrounding them and a question that we have in today's show. So, I'm going to give away a Beautycounter prize worth over $500. If you would like to get that, to enter, if you haven't written a review of the show yet, go to Apple Podcasts. If you have already written a show, go to Apple Podcasts and update your review.

In the review, include your thoughts on Vanessa joining the show, what you're excited to learn about from Vanessa, what you're looking forward to, and then send us a screenshot of that to questions@ifpodcast.com. We will enter you into the giveaway to win over $500 worth of Beautycounter products. If you're a man listening and you're like, “I don't need Beautycounter,” well, A, if you're a man and you win, I will tailor it to make sure I include products for you. And then also it will be great gifts that you can give to the women in your life because got to make the women in your life happy. I think that's all about that. Any other thoughts?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. I'm a huge fan of Vanessa's. We have bonded over a shared love of Prague and so I know that she will bring another kind of side to the IF Podcast. I think listeners will really like her.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm glad you mentioned that. Yes, so, Vanessa lives in Prague. [chuckles] She's not even in the US. It's been really funny talking to her because we text the time shift. So, basically, I hit her with all the things and then there's like a time gap and then there's the response. But yeah, I can see how you guys would really bond over that because I remember you talking about how much you loved Prague.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, Prague is awesome.

Melanie Avalon: So, she loves Prague.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, highly recommend. If you have not been to that part of Eastern Europe, you must go.

Melanie Avalon: When I've talked to her, I'm always like I wish you would move to the US because I want to hang out with her. But I know she adores Prague. So, okie dokie. So, stay tuned for that.

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But friends, it is not just athletes. Electrolytes can help everyone. Whether it's after a few glasses of wine, "Oh, hey." Keeping an active lifestyle or especially if you are fasting or doing a keto diet, electrolytes may be key. That's because both fasting and the keto diet specifically deplete electrolytes. But here's the thing. So many electrolytes on the market are full of so many things that you don't want. We're talking fillers, junk, sugar, coloring, artificial ingredients, things you don't want to be putting in your body. That's why I love LMNT. It has none of that. It contains a science backed electrolyte ratio of 1000 milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium and 68 milligrams of magnesium.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, and this is the question that I actually might relate to what I was talking about with the Beautycounter. This comes from Ashley. The subject is uneven fat loss. Ashley says and this was back when Gin was co-hosting. It was a while ago. She says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie.” She says, “I am four months into the IF lifestyle and have been listening from newest to oldest to the IF Podcast. I just finished podcast number 108 and a listener had a question about uneven fat loss. I too have experienced this in my own journey with uneven fat loss around my stomach. It shocked me that you both have said you hadn't really heard of that before, but with the podcast being older, I quickly checked in the Facebook groups to see if anyone had talked about it lately. Still nothing. This isn't really a question, but just wanted to let you know there are now two people that have experienced uneven fat loss.” Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge, Ashley. It was a long time ago that we talked about this. Cynthia, I'm curious, have you had this experience with your patients or you where people seem to lose fat unevenly in areas?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. So, Ashley, thank you for your question. I'm just trying to think about how to answer this thoughtfully, because all of us are our own individuals and we gain and lose fat depending on a lot of different variables. Do I find it surprising that there might be uneven fat loss? Yes, I think you really have to kind of trust the process. Depending on where these adipocytes are, I think you mentioned around your stomach, it could be that you may not be at a low enough level of fat reduction to be able to see the results you're looking for. We know that we can't spot reduce.

Even if we're frustrated, like, I have certain parts of my body that depending on where I'm carrying or how much fat I'm carrying, I will get pockets in certain spots. I've talked to enough friends of mine who are plastic surgeons, just asking them, like, “Why does this happen? How does this happen?” A lot of its genetically mediated. We're kind of born with a certain amount of fat cells and a lot of that's predetermined by genetics, but then also what we're eating in our younger years up and through our teen years when we're starting to continue to develop. So, I would say that have I seen this? Yes.

I think there are probably different things that you could try to do. I think, obviously, being conscientious about the nutrition piece where you kind of get discretionary macronutrients, things like sweets and desserts and alcohol can definitely derail good diets, healthy fats is one example. It's very easy to overeat healthy fats. They're delicious. I just ate some macadamia nuts before I started recording. Then I just portion them out. I would say if it really bothers you and you feel like the nutrition piece and fasting and maybe strength training is not getting the results that you want, you may be in a position where, if you desire to, and certainly, again, very personal decision.

Maybe going to talk to a plastic surgeon or a dermatologist to see what other options are available. I have colleagues using [unintelligible [00:26:25] which is an injectable medication, and some of them are using it on themselves just to spot reduce small areas. I don't know if this is a large area all the way up to cryotherapy modalities or even liposuction. Now, again, those are extremes and for some people that would be a no go, but there're a lot of things that you can do. But it's not at all unusual for people to feel like they've got some degree of asymmetry or some degree of lack of consistency in terms of where their fat distribution is. Melanie, what are your thoughts?

Melanie Avalon: Great answer. I'm glad you talked about the genetics piece. So, something that I think about often-- did you ever read I think it's in Good Calories, Bad Calories. Is it? There's this study they often talk about in the low carb ketosphere where it was a weight loss, but there're pictures, there're like black and white pictures from the forevers ago, like, patient pictures of this patient that lost weight only in one part of her body. I think on the top of her body. She was like skinny and emaciated on top and obese on the bottom. Have you seen these pictures?

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: And so, the reason I bring that up is because the argument that was made surrounding that, I think they were talking about how it's clearly not just calories, because how can you be emaciated on one part of your body and literally obese on the other part. So, there's like signaling involved here. So, basically, the body can specifically store or not store fat in certain areas. A lot of that can be genetics like Cynthia mentioned, I think a huge piece of it. I'm not saying our skincare makeup is causing this, but these endocrine disruptors, so these toxic chemicals that we are exposed to through our diet, our lifestyle, especially our skincare and makeup, a lot of them are actually obesogens, meaning they actually modulate our fat cells and cause them to store fat.

So, the studies on this are fascinating. They've actually found that these compounds can make the fat cells more likely to store fat. They make them more inflammatory, they make them actually hold on-- These toxic compounds, the body often puts them into fat cells to keep them from harming your body, which is great in the short term, not so great in the long term, because it means those toxins, while inert from your body, are stored in your fat cells. And we talked about this before. So, then people will lose weight and actually release those toxins, they have to deal with them then and can experience negative side effects from that. So, the process of it though--

These obesogens can make these cells inflammatory, more likely to store fat, and then more likely to actually recruit via cytokines, more fat cell potential growth, which is crazy. They've been shown to modulate insulin and ghrelin. So, our hunger and our satiety hormones. The reason I'm saying this is that it just goes to show that there can be signaling on fat cells for whatever reason, making some fat cells gaining more or holding on to more lipids and some might be more likely to release lipids. So, there's just a lot of things going into that genetics, endocrine disruptors that can definitely be a thing is my point. It's something where just in general, supporting A, anti-inflammatory state, removing these endocrine disruptors, working on your hormones and your sleep and your lifestyle.

I'm glad Cynthia brought up that there are mechanical interventions that you can do. I'm all about doing whatever you want to do, honestly. Some of those procedures can be invasive, so you really have to weigh cost benefit of that. But there are more invasive procedures where you can address literally just like remove the fat. Things like liposuction or laser liposuction, which is slightly less invasive but still invasive. And then there are other things that people do, like I've talked about CryoSlim before, which is they apply heat and cold to your fat cells and that can actually, “target that area.” There's CoolSculpting which freezes off the fat. That's been shown to be effective. It can have some side effects though, it can be a little bit painful, create some discoloration of the skin for some people.

But yeah, it's hard to outside of those more-- I don't want to say drastic because they're becoming more and more accessible at different centers and aesthetic places. Outside of that, it's really hard to specifically target fat cells. That said, something I would like to make in the future. This actually relates to our next question. Given the concept that we know that these fat cells have signaling mechanisms that make them more or less likely to store or gain weight, I actually do think that topical fat burners and I haven't found many that I like. That's why I want to make my own. [chuckles]

But I do think that it's not going to burn calories. You can't put something on your skin and burn calories, that is not is what is happening. But I can see how you could put on compounds that would act as a thermogenic sort of and making those fat cells more likely to burn fat. So, that's why in the future, I want to make a fat cell unlocking cream, I'm just brainstorming right now, but I really want to do this, where you would put it on those stubborn areas, and then you would do something like fasting and exercise. So, then it might make it more likely that those specific stores would release their free fatty acids that you could then burn. It wouldn't actually burn the fat, but it might be a little key helping you unlock the door. So, I'm just putting that out there. But in any case, so, yes, it is a thing. Clearly, it's a thing for Ashley. There are options. Yeah, feel free listeners to write in. If you have your own experiences of uneven fat loss and if you found anything that has been helpful, definitely write in and let us know.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that was very comprehensive. I think it really comes down to we've all got quirky things about our bodies and some things we can learn to live with or if it really bothers us, there's no judgment, I think it's really up to the individual to create a plan or a system that will help them address things they don't like. Obviously, very bio individual, there's no judgment irrespective of what people choose to do if there's something they'd like to change about themselves.

Melanie Avalon: Agreed. I'm glad we're on the same page about all of that.

Cynthia Thurlow: I was the same way when I was seeing patients in the hospital in the office. I was always like, “Hey, I'm just an open-minded individual.” As long as you're not hurting yourself, everyone has to do what resonates and makes sense for them.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, there's so much-- not to get on a soapbox, but there's so much judgment in today's culture, there's just so much judgment. If you just think about it for a second, especially with social media, everybody has an opinion on everything. I mean, I guess right now I have an opinion on everybody having an opinion on everything, but there's just this vibe of everybody needs to be a certain way. If you feel a certain way in your body or want a certain thing that is or isn't right, and I don't know, it's really exhausting. I'm just about, you just do you, like Cynthia said, if you're not hurting anybody else, just do whatever you want. I don't care.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'll just leave this here. But as an example, there's a woman, there's a trainer that I follow, and she's been very open about her facelift. It's actually been interesting from a clinical perspective to see what she looks like each day. I was surprised how many people were just so judgmental of her choice. I just said, I hope you have an uneventful surgery and recovery, and thank you for your transparency, but I think there's this duality that people want people to disclose, but then they want to criticize people for disclosing. I think that it helps people understand why there's sometimes a reluctance to be fully transparent, because there's always going to be someone who has an opinion that's going to be the opposite of the choice that you made. But we're all adults. Human nature is such that we tend to be very apt to be critical of one another. I always say I'm too busy to be focusing on what other people are doing. I'm just trying to focus in on what I need to be doing.

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more. I mean, it's just really interesting to think about, not to go on a whole esoteric soapbox tangent, but we don't really have a problem at all with women wearing makeup. And so, the concept of makeup, if we just think about literally what it is, you are changing the way your face looks to other people. That's what you're doing. I don't know how that's different than getting some sort of surgery on your face. People will say that, “Oh, well, you're actually changing your face. You're not just putting on makeup.” Well, how is that different from dyeing your hair? Dyeing your hair is changing the actual composition of your hair. In the end, if you just really step back, it's changing something about your appearance. It's you controlling your appearance, either because it makes you feel better when you look that way or how you look to other people, but I just all lump it in the same category. It's just interesting how there's so much judgment of some things and not others. I'm all about let's just all be friends.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, yes, yes.

Melanie Avalon: All righty.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I was going to say our next question is from Diane. Subject is thermogenics. “Hey, ladies. I'm 100% obsessed with your podcast. I believed in intermittent fasting before and attempted it for about a month about a year ago, but then fell into the keto craze and just became unattracted to dieting altogether. You ladies have definitely restored my faith by convincing me that it isn't a diet, it is most definitely a lifestyle. I'm only one week in and super confident in my future as an IF-er." Thank you.

My question is simple. "Does taking a thermogenic in a capsule form break the fast? I typically work out in the morning three to four times a week, and I like to take one 30 minutes before I start my workout. My window doesn't usually open until 3:00 to 04:00 PM. I find that thermogenic curbs my appetite even after working out, until I'm ready to break my fast, which is great, unless I've already broken my fast simply by taking the supplement. Any advice will help. Again, thank you so much. You all are awesome. Keep up the great work. Sidenote, I also like to drink water with powder BCAAs during my workout. I would still like some more insight on that as well." Thank you again.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome Diane, thank you for your question. Okay, so a few things. Well, we don't know what you're taking. We don't know what this thermogenic and a capsule is, so we can't say if the ingredients are not break your fast. So, you'd really have to look at the breakdown of the ingredients and take it from there. I do think we can more broadly talk about just the concept of thermogenics. This kind of relates to what I was saying before. Thermogenics are another thing where I find it really interesting because historically it kind of relates to the fat burning cream idea. People will say weight loss pills, these diet pills, which are often some form of thermogenics, don't work.

Like, there's this black and white idea that they don't work because a pill can't burn calories and it's seen as a fad. I have a more nuanced perspective in that. And again, it's very similar to what I was saying about the fat burning cream. If you're taking a compound that increases your metabolism or helps increase lipolysis, you're probably going to burn more fat if you're not compensating with eating. So, basically, if you're combining a thermogenic with a diet approach or even with something like fasting, depending on what it is. Again, there are so many on the market, and so many of them have a lot of sketchy fillers, and so many of them probably don't have what they say they have in them. I wouldn't touch most of them on the market, maybe any of them except my own. [chuckles] I don't have one right now, but if I have one in the future.

My point is, in theory, the concept scientifically, yes, they could help support weight loss, but I think a lot of them are sketchy and have problematic ingredients. And again, I wouldn't touch them. As far as whether or not they break the fast, the concept of a thermogenic itself and what is a thermogenic? So, it could be something, like, caffeine is a thermogenic. Something like, well, back in the day, ephedrine was thermogenic of thermogenics. There's a lot of just other compounds that have been shown to upregulate the metabolic rate and things like that. So, that's what we're talking about here.

She finds, for example, that it curbs her appetite. Again, I don't know which one you're taking, but the active ingredient itself is probably not breaking the fast. You just have to look at the overall whole picture of it. Well, I can talk about BCAAs, those will break a fast because those are amino acids which are sending a very different signal to the body and are going to stop autophagy. They're just a very different signaling mechanism than a thermogenic. What are your thoughts, Cynthia, on thermogenics?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that was a very comprehensive answer. So, Diane, I would say the BCAAs are definitely going to break your fast. Protein is broken down into amino acids, so you would save that for your feeding window. Not knowing what's in thermogenic, I am not a fan of these. I saw a lot of patients that had palpitations. They have anxiety. If you're only getting one meal in the whole day, I get concerned that you're not eating enough food and that you could be in a chronic deprivation of macros and food on a couple of different levels. The fact that you're taking something to suppress your appetite tells me you're not eating enough. And so, I would say, we know things like black coffee, as an example, have some appetite suppressant mechanisms and can help with boost fat oxidation. Same thing with green tea.

But I would say thermogenics, as a rule, I've never been a fan of those. I've just seen too many side effects. From my perspective, you're trying to suppress your appetite, which tells me that you're probably not fueling your body the way that you need to. We don't want to suppress our appetite. We can do that with fasting. There're counterregulatory hormones that can do that. But I would save your money and maybe you break your fast around lunch time, and you have a meal then, and you have another meal later in the afternoon, and you're able to hit your protein macros and be able to support your body. But I'm concerned that you're undereating, and I'm concerned that taking thermogenic is not only breaking your fast, but has the potential to cause some unnecessary and unneeded side effects.

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My AvalonX supplements are free of all problematic fillers including rice, which is very, very common in a lot of supplements, including some popular magnesium supplements on the market. It's tested multiple times for purity and potency and to be free of all common allergens, as well as free of heavy metals and mold. And it comes in a glass bottle to help prevent leaching of toxins into our bodies and the environment. Friends, I wanted to make the best magnesium on the market, and that is what this magnesium is. You can get Magnesium 8 at avalonx.us and use the coupon code MELANIE AVALON to get 10% off your order. That code will also work on all my supplements, including my first supplement that I made, Serrapeptase. You guys love Serrapeptase, a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm that breaks down problematic proteins in your body and can help allergies, inflammation, wound healing, clear up your skin, clear brain fog, even reduce cholesterol and amyloid plaque.

Okay, so our next question. I'm actually very excited for this question. I specifically wanted to include it in the last episode with Cynthia because I know she's all about the olive oils. So, Amy wants to know what should we look for in safe olive oils?

Cynthia Thurlow: The sad thing is there was a recent study that came out that demonstrated most conventional, by that I mean stuff you can find in your grocery store and Costco is not actually olive oil. It's adulterated with seed oils and seed oil blends with olive oil, which we want to avoid that. So, I have no affiliation with the company that I buy my olive oil from, but I'll tell you about that. But I will also say you're much better off buying organic olive oil. Like, if you're going to buy from the grocery store organic olive oil, you want to know that it's a company that has a good reputation. Most sourced olive oil comes from Spain and Italy just as an aside. So, hopefully that's one of the places they're sourcing from.

I have been buying olive oil from the honest to God this is its name, Fresh Pressed Olive Oil Club. And so, every month, we get three different types of olive oil, one that's mild, kind of medium taste, and then one that's a little stronger. I think many of us kind of gravitate towards mild tasting oils. But what you're missing out on is that the pungency and by that I mean, if there's a lot of polyphenols, which are these plant-based compounds in an oil, it feels like it's burning your tongue. It's not really burning your tongue. It's a very intense kind of sensation. This is just completely ironic. My most recent order, they talk about where the things are sourced from, what varieties of olives you get in each order.

So, as an example, again, I have no affiliation with them. I don't get anything. I don't get a kickback of any kind. But the bold choice was from two areas in Spain. It had three different types of oils and the flavor profile was bold, and they give you a depiction. I'll just share that Ben Azadi, who introduced me to this company, and I just think that we should be thoughtful about where we're sourcing things from. I recognize not everyone may have it in their budget to be able to buy really high-quality oil. So, when you go to the grocery store really looking for oils that are sourced from Spain and Italy, that's where most of the real olive oil comes from. And then organic extra virgin, because that's the first press out of the gate with the olives. Those are two kinds of good things. And then just know that when you go to the grocery store, most of what's there is adulterated.

Same thing when you go to a restaurant, here in the United States, there's not as much concern about quality. Sometimes your $100 steak is cooked in seed oils, which is a whole separate tangential conversation and rabbit hole, I won't go down. So, those are things I generally recommend. Obviously, there're lots of other options, but this is the company that I've been buying olive oil with. And for me, three bottles of olive oil will last us months. So, I think they had an option where you could join for a penny, meaning you would get a bottle of olive oil for a penny. It was something ridiculous, maybe a dollar, just to try it out. And we actually really liked it. Now this is one of my favorite things to gift to people. Melanie, what are your thoughts?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Well, first of all, thank you. You gifted me some of the olive oil for Christmas, which is awesome. So, thank you so much. A lot of great things that you said there. It was so interesting. I went down, like, an olive oil tangent. It's a whole thing. The different types that you see on the market, so there's typically extra virgin, virgin, and then there's light or pure, these different olive oils. So, the extra virgin is the creme de la creme. So, it's mechanically processed. It's cold pressed just basically taking that initial oil straight from the olive. The virgin is still good like that with that extraction process, just not quite as good. There're actually different ratings of olive oils, but one of the main organizations basically qualifies these by the level of free fatty acids. So, it has to do with how many of those are in the olive oil.

So, for example, extra virgin has less than 0.8%. Virgin has up to 2%. And then the pure and light ones, those relate to what Cynthia was saying. Well, two parts. In general, the pure and light ones. Light, it's not because they're less calories or anything like that. It's more about the marketing and that they often tend to be lighter in color, lighter in flavor. Well, they are refined, so it's probably extracted using chemicals or heat, which is not good, especially when we know how fragile these fatty acids can be and how they have the potential to turn inflammatory when they are heat processed. So, that's a major issue.

They can also or often adulterated with other like Cynthia was saying other oils like canola oil, grapeseed oil, seed oils. So, it's like a major major issue. But again, it's a major issue not just for the light oils, it happens with the virgin and the extra virgin. This is one of the largest areas for food fraud, which I had Robert Lustig on the show for his book Metabolical. You interviewed him, right, as well?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. He was amazing. Love his book man.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I love him. He has a lot in his book about food fraud, the olive oil industry. Major issue with the fish industry, like, scarred me for life. I was like, “Oh, man.” Even if you're having fish at restaurants, oftentimes you're not having what you think you're having, which is a major problem. But, yes, this is a major, major issue with olive oils. Like Cynthia was saying, yes, Spain and Italy are historically the go to, but apparently now it's also becoming a big problem there as well, which is very concerning. I was doing a little bit of research into it. Apparently the two countries where it's least likely to have food fraud are actually Australia and Chile, which I thought was really interesting because they actually have— so, Australia actually has the most stringent standards and testing system for their olive oils, which is pretty interesting.

But things you want to look for on the bottle, so, well, A, it sounds awesome to do something like Cynthia is doing, where basically you're putting your trust into that company to source you the good olive oil, so that takes away all of you having to play detective. So, I love that concept. I actually also got introduced recently to a company that's very similar. It's not the same company, but they send --I probably should have looked this up beforehand, similar concept where they send you the olive oils. It's like Dry Farm Wines where you're like getting random olive oils to try, but they're all about the quality and everything. What was interesting about this company is I was connected through a friend, and I kept asking to be directly connected to the company. He was saying, “Well, they want to just send it to you because they don't want you to be biased and they want you to just try the olive oils.”

I was like, “Yes, but I need to talk to them. So, if I do like them, I can share them with my listeners. I will look up the company and put it in the show notes. But if you're just at the store looking some things to look for, you definitely want it in a dark bottle, do not even think of getting olive oil that's not in a dark bottle. Olive oil oxidizes very easily. It goes bad, it can get rancid. So, you want to protect it. So, when you do have it, you want to store it in a cool, dry place. The best buys, like the expiration date, doesn't even matter. Don't even look at that. That's not telling you anything. Also, if it has a bottled-on date also doesn't matter, just throw that out because that can basically-- that's just when it was put in the bottle, it doesn't talk about when the actual olives, like, when the harvesting happened. So, that's why you want to look for a harvest date. That's the date you want to look for on the bottle. The more specifics on the bottle, the better. If there's an estate name, a mill name, that's good. If it specifically says where it's coming from, if there's third party certification seals, those can be really helpful. So, in Europe, they have protected designation of origin, the PDO, Italy has something called the DOP or in California, The California Olive Oil Council has the COOC certified extra virgin seal. So that's really good to look for those standards beyond everything else, just the actual taste and quality can be really important. Cynthia was talking about how there's different-- people will even do, like, olive oil tastings. Have you done those before?

Cynthia Thurlow: I did. There was this wonderful place in Northern Virginia that did them. I believe the mom was like from Italy and the dad was from South America, maybe Argentina. They had this family business and they would have olive oil tastings. It was really interesting to see the high polyphenol content ones were really bitter, and they would always say, “Don't be afraid of bitter.” Unfortunately, our palates are so conditioned to sweet. Now that I really understand how important polyphenol rich compounds are to our health, I'm like, “Oh my gosh,” those opportunities to try different olive oils and I would always gravitate towards the mild one, but now bitter things like bitter tea, bitter vegetables, it sends important information to our bodies. But yes, I've been to olive oil tastings and I love doing them. I think it's such a great opportunity to expand our palates.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm so glad you mentioned the oleocanthol because that's attributed to be one of the main benefits for why olive oil has so many benefits. It's very anti-inflammatory. It rivals NSAIDs in clinical studies for its anti-inflammatory potential. I remember the first time I went through an olive oil phase where I was using all the olive oil. I remember I would get that burning feeling and I thought it was because I was allergic. And then I realized later it is from that plant compound that does have those health benefits. For the health benefits, at least you do want that burning feeling from the olive oil and there're benefits with that increased bitterness and things like that. So, yeah, olive oils.

Cynthia Thurlow: Certainly, a very comprehensive way of talking about olive oils.

Melanie Avalon: Now I'm like craving some olive oil. Maybe rather than doing a last question just to end things, since this is our last moment together on the show, what is in the future for Cynthia Thurlow? What should we be looking for? What are you excited about?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, thank you for that question. I would say there's a degree of consistency. So, obviously the book Everyday Wellness continuing to kind of evolve these supplement lines, speaking on stages. I'm in the midst of writing a second book and so that is certainly exciting. I think that a lot of this year is going to be foundational work that I'm building within my business to be able to continue to scale. Obviously, group programs will continue to be there. Wholistic Blueprint and IF:45 but you'll probably just see a lot of me traveling. I always say I work hard, I play hard, and so going on vacation is one of my favorite things to do. Being able to connect with loved ones, my loved ones, my kids are obviously and my husband are very very important to me, being really deliberate with my time. I think the biggest thing is the realization that if I spread myself too thin, then I can't be good at any one thing.

So, I'm trying to be super deliberate, blinders on, we're going to be running a beta test for a program that will be coming out in May. For those of you that already follow me on social media or on my email list, just know that there's something coming out that's really cool, that actually will be for men and women because we've had so many requests, wives and significant others want to be able to do programs with their significant others. And so, we endeavored to create a program that is going to be able to meet people at different needs. I'm really excited because I feel like I'm putting things together in a way that is very thoughtful and I don't think I know that what I want to leave people with is that they feel educated, inspired, and empowered. That's definitely one of the missions of my business.

You'll definitely still see me on social media. I still remain an introvert, so I may not be on video all the time, but you'll definitely be hearing lots of podcasting. We've got some really incredible guests coming up that I'm excited about. Sometimes you get the incredible guests, like the unicorns, you get them when they write a book. [laughs] I've been chasing after two or three people for at least 6 to 12 months, and they're coming on in the next month, which is exciting. Lots of prep, but yeah, all good things. Definitely all good things. Yeah, lots of travel, that's also part of it. That's the funny thing is, people now will say to me, “Oh, you kind of inspire me to set time aside.” I'm like, it doesn't have to be a grandiose trip, it could just be a trip an hour away, or you could just go away for a night. But for me, traveling is like one of my favorite things to do outside of working in my business.

Melanie Avalon: Well, yes, that is incredible. If they want to specifically follow you, how can they get on your email list?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, easiest thing to do is just go to my website. There's a little box where you can put your email in, so www.cynthiathurlow.com. You can also get information about upcoming launches. We have waiting lists for programs and I always encourage people to get on the waitlist because, hint, oftentimes when the waitlist opens, it's before the general public can sign up for classes, and so we always have financial incentives to sign up early. So, yeah, we've had a lot of interest in IF:45 and in Wholistic Blueprint, which we just finished this past week. So, yeah, definitely a good way to stay in touch. I always say that I don't endeavor to over email my list. I try to be very judicious, but yeah, it's exciting. I think that you can catch me on Instagram cynthia_thurlow_.

I wish everything was the same on every platform, but if you can imagine, there are a lot of Cynthia Thurlows out there, which kind of muddied the waters. I'm trying to have consistency. I'm on Twitter. Be forewarned, I can be snarky. I'm on LinkedIn. I have a free Facebook group, Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle/my name. It's a free group. You just have to answer a couple of questions, largely centering around the fact that I'm not giving you medical advice. You'd be surprised how many people don't want to check that box and they don't get in and we have nothing to do with it. That's how the group is set up. We have men and women in that group. It's a very nice, supportive community. We are anti-drama. We boot people out for that. Those are the ways to definitely stay in touch and also subscribe to Everyday Wellness. We're getting close to 100,000 subscribers and this is something I've been working towards very diligently. And thank you for all the support. Listeners should know that it goes both ways with Melanie and I. I will continue to be a supporter of the podcast and of her and all of your endeavors as well as Vanessa's.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. It's been such a beautiful journey. I'm so excited to see where everything goes with you. It's just really exciting, everything that you're doing and really, really helpful in having a profound impact on the world, especially women. So, thank you so, so much. We'll put links, listeners, to everything that we talked about and all of those resources and all of Cynthia's stuff in the show notes. Those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode314 and then you can follow us on Instagram, @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and @ifpodcast. And then again. Lastly, if you would like to be entered into a giveaway to win over $500 worth of beauty counter, go to Apple Podcasts, write a review of the show and/or update your current review to say what you are excited about to experience with Vanessa Spina. She will be here week after next. Okay, well, this has been absolutely wonderful, Cynthia, anything from you before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, thank you my friend and listeners just know that I will be cheering everyone on from the sidelines.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I will talk to you soon.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Apr 16

Episode 313: New Publicity, High Volume Training, Carb Cycling, Marathons, REM Sleep, Deep Sleep, Magnesium, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Welcome to Episode 313 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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24:15 - Listener Q&A: Stephanie - I just recently trained and completed a marathon— can you discuss fueling for endurance in Perimenopause?

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54:45 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 313 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends. Have you ever felt ashamed or guilty when you eat certain foods? These are likely the "forbidden foods," that you can't touch and you stay away from them. We are constantly faced with societal pressure and judgment around what we eat and how we look. So, we often feel guilty when we eat something that we think is bad for us. Instead of falling for this, we need to shift our focus to thoughtful nourishment, where we are giving our body what it needs. You guys know we are obsessed with continuous glucose monitors, also known as CGMs. NutriSense can help you identify which foods are good for you and what you should eat less of.

They provide continuous glucose monitors, which track your glucose levels in real time. So, basically, you're able to see, okay, I just ate this, and this is what happened to my blood sugar. Once you're able to see the real impact of certain foods on your body, you can start making better food choices guilt free. The CGM is an objective tool through which you can see how your body reacts to different food. This is so important, not subjective, objective. And to make sense of all the data, because it can be a lot. NutriSense pairs you with an expert dietitian who will help you with personalized diet and lifestyle changes that are based on what works best for you.

And you just might be surprised to find that something you used to feel guilty about does not trigger blood sugar spikes after all. You can actually enjoy it in moderation. Maybe you don't need to avoid certain foods or feel guilty about it. Just sign up for the NutriSense program and start making correct food choices today. Curious how it works? A continuous glucose monitor is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time, the application is so easy, so painless. Check out my Instagram, I post videos all the time of putting it on.

Then there's the NutriSense app. With that, you can use the app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log meals, run experiments, and so much more. And then, of course, you get that expert dietitian guidance. Each subscription plan includes one month of free dietitian support. Your dietitian will help you interpret the data and will help you build sustainable healthy habits to achieve your goals. They'll guide you in creating a meal plan that suits your unique lifestyle and needs. I get so much feedback about how people love this aspect of the program. It's really personalized and it really helps you make sense of everything. Go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That's nutrisense.io/ifpodcast with the code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. I will put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

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Hi, everybody, and welcome, this is episode number 313 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I've had a crazy week. Well, two things. The first is that I had an article published in CNBC, which was crazy because it was an actual profile feature-type thing, not just a quote, but a funny story about it. [laughs] I've tried very hard to not talk about my age publicly just because of mostly it's from my acting background, like, you don't want people to know your age or whatever. So, I get questions all the time about how old I am. And so, when the reporter was writing the story, she sent me an email prior to it publishing with fact checking about some different things and sign-offs for the photos and all of that. She asked me if she could include my age in it. So, I was a little bit stressed, and I was talking to my publicist, and I was like, should I and we decided, presumably, hopefully, if I keep getting more articles, it's just going to happen someday, so I might as well just let it go out there.

So, when I told her, I sort of made it clear that I don't normally do that and I don't really want to, but if she wanted to, if she thought it was better for the article to go ahead, I was hoping she would either not do it or put it in somewhere on the down low. She literally made it the title. Did you see the article? [laughs]

Cynthia Thurlow: I did. I guess as middle-aged women where a lot of women are embarrassed to say their age, I think we should all be proud of our ages. Was it that you thought there would be some bias because you were a young woman?

Melanie Avalon: No, it really mostly goes back to the acting stuff, in which I'm not actively doing right now with the podcasting, so it doesn't matter so much. But like with acting, you could not get roles because of certain .

Cynthia Thurlow: Really? Okay.

Melanie Avalon: So, acting resumes, your age is usually not on there or anything.

Cynthia Thurlow: Interesting. Okay. That gives context, so at least that makes sense to why you would be averse to discussing that.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. It is kind of typical to in general how I am with transparency and all the things, I do have fears of aging. It was just funny, though, because it came out and I was like, "Oh, well." [laughs] Okay. And then the crazy part, though, the second part is that a reporter at Fox reached out about an article, and that was more like a quote-type situation. It was crazy because it was Fox Health, and it's about biohacking. And she also quotes Dave Asprey, so it's like me and Dave Asprey being quoted. And she quoted me like seven times, which is insane.

But then what's even crazier is yesterday, if you Googled-- it's probably changed now because news changes so fast. But if you Googled Biohacking and Google News, I was on the front page twice, which is crazy. I was the number one hit for the Fox article, and then CNBC was like a few down. I just say all this to say it's very surreal and exciting and I don't know what's happening, but it's exciting to see biohacking getting out there in the mainstream media.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. Well, and I think there aren't a lot of, like when I think about biohackers, I think it's very much a male-dominated field. I think it's certainly very encouraging that they're featuring more women.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and actually both of the journalists were women, come to think of it. Although I actually got another reporter at Fox reached out. I don't know if he saw the Fox article. I'm guessing I don't know because it was not through my publicist. It was just random and so that was a male. But he said he's writing about biohacking [laughs] and wants to interview me, I was like okay.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's great. Congratulations.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. So, what is new with you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I literally just finished a podcast with Dr. Mark Hyman, which was really awesome. He is someone that I've really looked up to in the functional medicine space. I have lots of his books, really respect his work, and it was a lot of fun to record with him. We had a couple, like, technical glitches. I'm not sure where that was coming from. There was like of a bump to the beginning to the interview, not because of anything either of us were doing. I think there's just riverside gremlins, just like, you can have Zencastr and Zoom gremlins, just things that ensure technology is not working properly.

But yeah, that was a really cool win this morning. I just think it's important for more women to get interviewed talking about fasting and what is different about fasting for women versus men and how these hormetic stressors can help improve our health. And he was really interested in the supplements, and so we spent a good amount of time talking about creatine and also Myo-inositol. When you admire someone in the health and wellness space, to be able to connect with them and try not totally fan geek and be a spaz, because I think for all of us, it's the recognition like, this is amazing to have been able to interact with someone that I've admired for so long, but also just have a conversation and feel very comfortable being able to discuss how we look differently at health and wellness than we did during our training. And so that was really cool.

This is one of those days. Like, I was trying to explain to my mom, who is coming this afternoon, trying to explain to her, like, "Oh, yeah, I've got this podcast," and I have two with Melanie. I don't know if your parents understand podcasting. My parents just aren't into it. They don't really fully understand the utility and the amount of connection you can have with people. And so, you're trying to explain to my mom, this is a serious part of what I do. It's a wonderful thing that I do, but context of what these things represent, your parents are little bit younger than mine, so they may be more into the concept of podcasting.

Melanie Avalon: They definitely understand because what I'm hearing you say is that, does your mom not quite understand that it's like, career related, that it's very serious?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. She thinks it's like a hobby. Like, this is my hobby. I'm trying to explain to her, if you will arrive while I'm recording, you have to sit and be quiet. [laughs] You can't just come in and talk to me, that kind of thing. But I think my parents are of a generation, like, I love to read, but that's not the only way I learn. And so, trying to explain, like, you can listen in your car, and you can listen while you're at the gym, and you can listen while you're at grocery shop. There're so many ways to learn. It's not just being in front of a book. I think it's just this technology piece. I have aunts who are really into podcasts, so I know it's not per se a generational thing, but it just makes me laugh at my mom. I'll just send her a podcast and she'll be like, "When am I supposed to listen to this?" I'm like, "I don't know. When you're gardening, like, you're retired. You have all this time in the world to do these things." So, anyhow.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, my parents definitely understand that it's a career and they understand that it's well, actually-- they definitely understand because whenever I feel like I'll talk really casually about things, like if an interview gets rescheduled or something like that and they'll get worried, I'm like, no, I'm like, "Mom, it's okay." [laughs] Like it's all okay. She's listened to some occasionally, but definitely not regularly. Although, speaking of interviewing, well, first question, how did you get the interview with Mark Hyman? Were you introduced to him?

Cynthia Thurlow: Their team reached out, so that was nice. Yeah. I was like, yes. [laughs] When people like that reach out, you're like, clear my schedule to make that happen. I've had to kind of explain to my team that when those kinds of requests come in, they interrupt my workflow. Like, we remove things from our schedule. We make ourselves available. This is how this works. So, yeah, they reached out. But I had been in his newsletter earlier this year. The Creatine had been in his newsletter, so I assume that I was, like, on their radar, which I thought was really cool and I was like, if nothing more comes out of it, I'm so grateful for that opportunity to be part of his newsletter.

But yeah, he was a great interviewer. I think you probably know this. I think most people probably know this. There are people who interview at a level that you're just I hope to be at that level at some point and he really did an amazing job. Like, asked me things other people have never asked. Well, I don't think I know, I appreciate that.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. The reason I was thinking about it was, thank you for your intro to Gabor Maté because I interviewed him. Oh, and I was going to say, I feel like that'll be the one episode that my mom-- well, I don't know if she wants to listen to it because I talked about her a lot. Kind of like you said, it turned into, like, a therapy session.

Cynthia Thurlow: Totally. It's interesting. I don't know if you saw there was, like, an event where he was interviewing Prince Harry, and I feel so conflicted about-- I'm glad that Prince Harry's had so much success with that book and his message, but it's not a slight against him or Megan. It's not any of my business. I was like, I feel like it's so personal. [laughs] Yeah, he is probably one of my favorite interviews, because I think you have to have done the work to be able to interview someone like that, and it would be very inauthentic otherwise. I don't know if you feel similarly after interviewing him.

Melanie Avalon: That experience. I was like, I'm basically having, like, a therapy session with Gabor Maté, except, like, thousands of people are listening. It's fine. [laughs] Good thing I go to therapy every week anyways. Oh, we also had, like, three times, the call dropped out. Like, he just went away. And I was like my heart sank. At the very beginning, I was so nervous. I was just so nervous about it. I introduced him and I said his name, and then I said Dr. Maté to introduce him. He corrected me and he said it's Gabor because he was saying to call him by his first name. But I was so on edge that I thought he was saying that I mispronounced his name. It was like the most mortified moment I think I've ever had on the show and it wasn't even a real moment because that wasn't what he meant; it was incredible. My mom might listen to that was the whole point.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I sent the book to my dad. I'm not sure he'll ever read it, but I think that there are certain books that come along that you recognize how impactful they are on a very substantive level. It's a joy read. Some books are just fun to read and people are fun to interview, but that book, when I read it, I was like, wow, this is a book that took 10 years to write, and this is his life's work, and this is a book that is going to have a tremendous ripple effect for years to come. What a joy to be able to connect with someone like that. So, I'm so glad that you were able to interview him.

Melanie Avalon: And thank you because you made that connection, so I really appreciate it.

Cynthia Thurlow: You're very welcome. Well, you've done that for me many times.

Melanie Avalon: We have a nice little overlapping pool of guests. I have one more thing to touch on before we jump in. This actually well, it relates to one of our questions, so I'm trying to decide if I should talk about it now. I'll talk about it now briefly, and then I'll talk about it more in one of the questions. But today-- so hopefully listeners are listening today that this airs. If you're listening today, March 17, then this is your last day to get the launch special for my new Magnesium Threonate. So, I'm so excited about this magnesium. Basically, when I created my Magnesium 8, which is eight different types of magnesiums. I did not specifically include Magnesium Threonate because it's a special type of magnesium that specifically crosses the blood-brain barrier. It has that unique purpose, and then secondly, it requires a pretty high therapeutic dose to get the intended benefits.

If I had included it in the blend, it just wasn't feasible. Like, you wouldn't have gotten enough of it to actually get the effects that you wanted. So, I released it as a standalone, it's called the Magnesium Nightcap. You can take it to help with everything related to your brain. So, sleep, mood, memory, and this is why I'm going to talk about it, and a little bit about sleep. But so, specifically, if you'd really like to support your sleep, if you'd like to support your cognitive function, the studies have shown that Magnesium Threonate can help, like I said, with memory, learning, mood, it has been shown to reduce anxiety and depression symptoms, and it's also been shown to be neuroprotective. You definitely want to get my Magnesium Nightcap. So, again, today, the 17th, is the last day to get the launch special, and the launch special is 15% off, and the code for that is NIGHTCAP15.

However, some lucky people who got my Magnesium 8 special, so the people who grab that launch special, actually have a special code for 25% off, which is awesome. And that code was emailed to them. So, all the more reason if you didn't get that code to be on all the lists so that you don't miss the specials going forward. For that, it is avalonx.us/emaillist and you can text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. When you text that number, you'll also get a one-time 20% off code, which is great. So, yeah, those are those details. I'll probably circle around just a tiny bit to the magnesium in our sleep question, but I just wanted to get that in there. And we do have another sort of announcement we could share at the end of the show.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: It's like a teaser.

Friends, I am so excited to tell you about one of my new favoritest things ever. Okay, so you guys know I eat a lot of cucumbers. I don't think that this is any secret. I find myself throwing away pounds, yes, pounds of cucumber peels every single night. I felt so awful just throwing it in the trash. It seemed like such a waste. I'd always wanted to try composting aka a sustainable approach to turning food waste into healthy dirt. But it seemed really intimidating and not very practical. So, it was on the to-do list for quite a while. You can imagine how thrilled I was when a company called Lomi by Pela reached out to me, wanting to sponsor the show. Normally I have to think about all the brands that reach out to me. I was an immediate yes. I was so excited. I got my Lomi device, it is incredible.

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And Lomi is super cool. It has three different settings. It has the Eco-Express setting, which is low energy consumption, provides the fastest results, and is good for your food waste. It has the Lomi Approved setting that's 5 to 8 hours. You can actually put in Lomi Approved bioplastics and other compostable commercial goods and packaging that are Lomi Approved. And then there's the Grow Mode that's 24 hours, it's low heat with a longer duration, and that actually preserves the microorganisms the most to help the soil and promote carbon storage in the soil. I am all about regenerative agriculture, so the fact that we can help put carbon back into the soil is so, so incredible.

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Melanie Avalon: Okay, shall we jump into questions?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so to start things off, we have a question from Stephanie and this comes still from when we gathered all those AMA questions. But she says, "I just recently trained and completed a marathon. Can you discuss fueling for endurance in perimenopause?"

Cynthia Thurlow: I've thought about this question in the context of this is an Intermittent Fasting Podcast. But when I have women in perimenopause or menopause that are training for big events, I am not a fan of a great deal of fasting so, 12, 13 hours fasted or digestive rest, however, you want to reframe that, I think you have to not be afraid to have some carbohydrate. That doesn't mean overwhelming amounts of carbohydrates. I think the first thing that I think about is, are you sleeping? Are you recovering? Are you eating an anti-inflammatory diet? I find a lot of women in perimenopause do best really limiting or eliminating gluten and grains. I do have some very active women in some of my groups. And so, the way that we kind of dance around this is protein is consistent, cycling carbohydrates, depending on how you feel. Obviously, if you're insulin resistant, really being mindful of discretionary carbohydrates and making sure they're coming from real whole food sources.

Whether it's sweet potato or root vegetables or low glycemic fruit like berries and citrus fruit, I think it's very, very dependent. Stephanie, the way to answer your question is really, are you insulin sensitive? How's your sleep? How are you managing the volume of training? Because I find that a lot of women who've been avid endurance athletes in their 20s and 30s just don't recover quite as well. So, making sure you're getting enough recovery, making sure that you're eating enough food, and not over fasting, I think are the big kind of high points. Obviously, my area of expertise is not training high-level athletes. And if you look at people like Dr. Stacy Sims, she is anti-fasting for women and she is someone that works with elite athletes and individuals that are doing a high volume of training. So, I think it's very unique. But I would say really being cognizant of the lifestyle piece that goes along with that doesn't mean it's impossible just making sure you're getting enough recovery, getting enough sleep, making sure that you're getting your macros, and certainly not to restrict food, especially when you're doing a large volume. Like, I've had girlfriends that were training for Ironman races. Whenever I say that, I always feel like I'm like Ironman, Ironman.

Melanie Avalon: I guess it would be like, yeah, IRONMANs, I guess.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, like semantics in my brain. But I think it's really important to just make sure you're not overtraining. I think that's the big-- this role of hormesis, beneficial stress in the right amount at the right time, really important. I just see a lot of women that are still doing and I'm not picking on CrossFit, I'm just going to give that as an example. CrossFit, Orangetheory Fitness, really intense exercise, not enough recovery, and their cortisol just gets depleted. So, just make sure you're taking care of you while you're doing that high volume of training. Melanie, what are your thoughts?

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, that was very, very helpful. You definitely know a lot more about that than I do. It's not at all my forte, the athletic realm, but I will just echo some of the things that Cynthia said, which is that in general, I like to think that I am macronutrient agnostic and that I always want people to find what works best for them. I do think in general, a lot of people, especially not in our fasting and obviously keto community, will be in a place of really fueling endurance and a lot of activity on carbs and constantly doing the fuel-ups and stuff like that. And they can find great benefits from switching to a low-carb state to fuel endurance because it really pairs well with endurance because you have essentially unlimited fat stores, even people who are thin in any given race. You're not going to run out of fats compared to carbs, where that's requiring constant fuel-ups and things like that and it's more of a roller coaster-type situation.

In general, perimenopausal women aside, I feel like low-carb ketogenic diets can be really great for endurance once people's bodies adapt to them. That said, I think it's really important, especially for women, and I'm really just echoing what Cynthia said, the body can get too stressed from these types of things. So, that's were bringing in, I like how Cynthia was talking about carb ups might be really beneficial. So, basically finding the right approach to the macronutrients that will allow you to both fuel longer-term endurance-type activities on a lower carb approach while still making sure that you're getting in the carb ups in the way that you need to not be overly stressed. Do you like intense actual carbs-- because you normally eat lower carbs, right? Do you have like carb up days at all?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. I always say in the context of this conversation, this is what works for me, because we get so many questions across social media, my teams like we have to just follow you into the gym so that people understand. I typically aim to do three strength training days a week and two of the three are legs and I do some combination of upper body. So, I try to be really efficient because I genuinely don't love the gym that we go to, but we don't have a lot of options because we're not where were before in our state. So, I'll just leave it there. So, I'm like very efficient, I get in, I get out. I also do a lot of Zone 2 Training, and I think Peter Attia does a really good job of explaining what Zone 2 Training is and that's just being physically active. It doesn't necessarily have to be like on a treadmill or a stairmill or elliptical trainer, but I do plenty of Zone 2.

One of the things that I think has been a needle mover for me personally is doing Pilates, largely because I recently learned on Hypermobile and it's really important for me to stretch. So, Pilates is an exercise for my brain. Although I'm working my core, I do find it challenging and those are the three things I try to really focus on and be diligent about and that works well for me. So, when I'm doing strength training. I'm trying to keep my heart rate up, so I'm not necessarily resting more than a minute in between sets. And that's with my trainer's approval. It's not like I'm doing anything to hurt myself. But I do like to get sweaty. And I definitely think that each one of us has to kind of find what works best for me, maintaining muscle is really important, and I'm at a disadvantage.

Ironically, I was talking to Mark Hyman about this. Once you're in late perimenopause, early menopause, you're at a hormonal disadvantage about building muscle unless you're actively working against it. And so, that's why the strength training piece is so important. But I think, for me, I just stopped enjoying the CrossFit-type classes. I stopped enjoying those conditioning classes. I think there's a point to which you get the diminishing law of returns. And so, I think, for me, what I've learned is this is what works for me. I eat a carnivore-ish diet, so generally high in protein, lower in fat, so I do better with leaner meat and then the carbs. I've actually been experimenting more with low glycemic fruit and having a little bit more discretionary carbohydrates just to see how it impacts my sleep. And so, I've been pleasantly surprised.

This is the experiment of the N of 1. I'm not yet ready to say this applies to everybody, but I've been experimenting with more carbohydrates. Not a lot, but experimenting with more to see how it impacts my sleep quality and I've been pleasantly surprised, but not yet ready to share it's this much carbohydrate because I'm still experimenting. But I do find that when I carbohydrate cycle, I'm less likely to feel like I'm depriving myself. And I think everyone has to decide what makes them feel good. I don't do well with a high-fat diet. That's why traditional keto wouldn't work well for me.

I just don't feel good. I just recognize that I do better with leaner meat. And that's something that's been corroborated now by nutrigenomic testing, which is taking my genetics and looking at all the data, and ironically enough, without this person even knowing how I ate, she was telling me exactly my ideal way to eat. I was like, well that makes sense. At least that validates. I'm not crazy. [laughs] I know that you tend to be high protein, high carb, correct?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's so interesting because, I literally-- one of my first memories of us doing this show, actually, I think, is when you were sharing your diet, it was probably on this show, and you made the comment about the leaner meat piece which I feel is sort of rare because there's always all this emphasis on the fat part of things because people are so anti-carb often that people don't normally say that they eat leaner meat when they're existing. Not that we're doing keto, but in this sphere, if that makes sense. If you're in the low fat, you know obviously, like more vegan camp, you would be all vegans, wouldn't be eating meat anyways. But point is, it's like a vibe that I don't hear a lot. And I remember you saying that, and I was like, "Oh, it's like, me too," because yes so historically, I did go through a period of keto and very high fat.

Although, interestingly, it was really plant-based fats. Like, I basically would eat tons of coconut oil and lean meats. And then I switched to leaner meats. I basically just took out the fat. And then I brought back the carbs in the form of low glycemic fruits like you're mentioning and what's really interesting hearing about your nutrigenomic experience. When I do those tests, they actually say that I'm better with low carb and keto rather than the carb side of things. But intuitively, I just looking back at my timeline and again, I'm all about people need to find what works for them. So, I'm always hesitant to talk about what I eat or my diet history because I feel like people want to do what I'm doing exactly, which is not the takeaway message here. But what's interesting is that I was low carb for I wonder how long? Probably three years, maybe. And then I brought back the fruit and I literally just felt like my body was coming alive.

I was like, oh, my goodness. What's interesting is I do remember the very first few days I did feel like I got back into a little blood sugary type feeling or blood sugar swing feeling, but I was still fasting. I powered through it and then I very quickly adapted, and then I realized I'm just so much happier, like, having my carb up essentially every night with fruit and filling up those glycogen stores and then I sleep better. This is going to sound like very vague, but I just feel more lighter and glowy. I like the way fruit makes me feel hydrated, I think. I don't really have to hardcore stress about electrolytes as much as when I was low carb. For me, it works really, really well. And I still stay with the lean meats, the high protein. I don't really ever add fat, but I do eat salmon few times a week and that's actually pretty fatty. Do you add fats?

Cynthia Thurlow: But this is the only time you'll ever hear me utter this phrase, plant-based fats. But this is where-- no, and I'm not being snarky, I feel like I have to preemptively say, I do well with macadamia nuts, which I'm obsessed with. I do well with MCT oil, coconut oil, butter. I tolerate ghee. If I want nut butter or extra virgin olive oil or avocados, I do really well with those. But again, that's the one lever that I have to be the most careful with. And it drives my husband crazy because leaner, like beef, is more expensive. Sometimes our grocery bills are mitigated by the fact that half the house likes fatty meat and the other half doesn't. So, it's just one of those things. I think for everyone listening, you might do well with low carb, you might not. I think it's all about a degree of experimentation and being open minded.

Even though I'm not a traditional keto person, I sometimes get accused of being one, which I'm really not. I'm too high protein to be keto. But I do find that everyone should be open minded. If something's not working for you, that's okay. Like for me, I'm also someone that needs more electrolytes. If I'm doing low carb and I can tell on days when I'm depleting glycogen stores so stored sugar because I'm urinating more and I'm like, okay, I need more electrolytes to kind of hold on to some of that water. But it's being depleted because you're going lower carbohydrates, your body's kind of breaking down this glycogen source and you're urinating out not just sodium, but other electrolytes. But yeah, definitely a good point to honor what works best for you and not feel pressured to do something that doesn't make your body feel good, because if I were fully ketogenic, I probably would not be feeling as good as I do. But that's okay.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. And I really encourage people to not lump all carbs into one basket. Like for me, for example, I do really well with the fruit. Like starches? No, if I eat starches, I fill up like a balloon with water retention and it messes with my energy levels. But some people do great with starches. That's perfect for them. Some people fruit is not their thing. I understand that starches and fruit are all glucose, sucrose, and fructose, but the ratio of them and whether or not they're complex or not can affect how your body breaks them down and processes them and then of course, there's the gut microbiome aspect. It's just so individual and so unique. I as well like you and I think we've talked about this before, but I do prefer for me plant-based fats. Interestingly the animal fats are very satiating for me, which is a good thing. But they just feel-- I think we talked about this before they just for me, I feel heavier in my body or something. I feel like I process the plant-based fats better. They don't seem to slow down my system if that makes sense.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I can't. The last time I had duck-fat fries, I just about vomited. They tasted delicious. Like 2 hours later I was like-- and let me just preemptively say my gallbladder is very healthy. My gallbladder, it's just the way that my body responds to animal-based fats. This is a perfect example of the N of 1 and experimenting to find what works best. If you're insulin sensitive, you have a lot more flexibility than if you don't. I think that's a big takeaway.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, definitely. Awesome. Okay. Thank you, Stephanie, for your question. Shall we go on to our next one?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. Next question is Paul. "How to improve REM versus deep sleep as tracked on Oura? Specific strategies or supplements to improve either depending on what we seem to be getting enough of on a regular basis."

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Paul, well, thank you so much for your question. For people who don't have an Oura Ring, something that's really cool about it is you can see your different sleep stages throughout the night, like how long you spent in each stage. Again, it's using a lot of different data to determine that. It's not actually measuring your brain waves, but it does seem to have pretty intelligent AI in order to come up with those numbers. So, you might realize that you are lacking or that you might benefit from more of one certain type of sleep. So, REM sleep, I got a lot of information from this. I got a lot of information actually from Oura's website, appropriately enough. It's actually known as paradoxical sleep because it engages the body and the brain very similar to when you're awake, which is super cool. So, 80% of our dreams actually occur in REM sleep. I had written down the amount, it occurs every 90 to 120 minutes. Early adults should spend around 20% to 25% of their total time in REM sleep. The equivalent of that is basically if you're sleeping 7 to 8 hours, then you should have around 90 minutes in REM.

And the purpose of REM is that it seems to help with our brain health and our emotions and our mental wellness. It's basically like I said, it's when a lot of dreaming occurs. It's really important for-- if you have anxiety or emotional experiences during the day. It's when the brain basically deals with that and reduces the amygdala's response and can reduce your adrenaline. It can actually help you process the things that happen in our stressful life. So, it's really important for emotional balance. So, can you specifically increase REM? Yes and no. In general, stepping back, it's probably best to just focus on your entire sleep as a whole, rather than the very specific sleep stages, but I'm going to give a lot of caveats to that. And also, if you had some disorder understandably that affected a certain type of sleep, that would definitely be a different situation.

But in general, I think the best approach is just supporting sleep in general, which is a lot of the sleep habits that we talk about a lot on this show. I do all the crazy sleep things. But it's one reason I am so in awe, people like Cynthia traveling all the time because I need all of my sleep stuff to sleep well. So, things like a dark cool room and studies have actually shown, for example, that light exposure specifically affects REM and temperature specifically affects REM. So, specifically in REM, our core body temperature drops. So, already in general, having a cool sleeping environment is important for sleep, but especially for REM, it can be really important keeping it dark.

Blackout curtains can be game changers. I remember when Gin used to host this show, I would talk about blackout curtains all the time. The way it was with Gin was basically like, I would talk about something ad nauseam for weeks, months, often years, and then finally she would try it and totally be onboard. I remember the day she tried blackout curtains and she was like, why did it take her so long to do this? So, blackout curtains can be amazing. Sleep masks can be amazing. Speaking of the cooling piece, I use a cooling mattress. I use the OOLER. You use a cooling mattress, right.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm embarrassed to admit to the community that I was gifted an OOLER. We like, complete quiet with sleep, and neither one of us could talk. It was just these consistent noises drive me crazy. And so, it was the noise, it wasn't the coldness. Like I appreciated and liked that. We both liked that. But we actually gave it to a family member who doesn't mind. I mean, I completely believe in them, and I think they're a wonderful option provided you don't mind the noise.

Melanie Avalon: How long ago was that?

Cynthia Thurlow: That was gifted to me in 2021.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I'm just wondering if it's their newest one.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm assuming they probably have consistently but I have friends who love theirs. They were like, oh my God, you're going to love it. And after a week we're like, no, [laughs] but I do keep my house very cold at night so that definitely helps.

Melanie Avalon: I will say the one thing when I travel, of the rare occasions, the thing I miss the most is the OOLER because it is a game changer for me. It's amazing because noise aside, I wear earplugs and I don't hear anything with those, I will make a recommendation because it can be hard to find earplugs, especially for women if you have small ears. It's the Howard Leight spelled, I don't know if that's how you say it, spelled L-E-I-G-H-T. Women earplugs. They're pink. I've been using these for years, years, years, years, and they are amazing. So, we can put a link to those in the show notes. But, yeah, when I travel, the heat retention, like all of that heat building up in the covers, I just feel like I'm suffocating and what's really cool about the cooling mattress is you're not freezing. It's not uncomfortable. It just basically really pulls the heat out of your body that's building up.

So, you still get to use the covers and feel all warm and snugly, but the heat is not building up. I just find it a game changer for me. And then, some of the other things for sleep, well, obviously nice sleep habits like hygiene, winding down every night, turning off social media. I use red lights to light my apartment. This is something I always leave out of my sleep routine. And I should remember to say it more. On YouTube I love the Hertz Therapies that they have. I play this one called it sounds really woo-woo, but it's called Love Energy Open Heart Chakra. But it's 528 Hz frequency. I just play that and it plays for a long time. It's like a two-hour track. And then it typically just goes into other tracks that are also playing similar things and having that ambient sound that is that therapeutic hertz sound is incredible for me for winding down.

The power of sound, I don't think can be underestimated with its digital health effects, can't be overestimated. [laughs] And then just some last few quick things going back to specifically REM sleep, alcohol has been shown to delay REM sleep and lead to less REM sleep overall. Drinking right before bed probably not a good idea. Marijuana use increases deep sleep, but it can reduce REM sleep, which I realized I never said what REM stands for. It stands for rapid eye movement, which people are probably familiar with it's because people's eyes move back and forth rapidly during REM sleep. And then also caffeine can have an effect. So, if you're having caffeine close to bed, it can potentially invert your sleep cycle, which is kind of crazy. It can actually make REM happen earlier and slow wave happen later. So that's really interesting to me. This is really important. So, obviously, we always want to be focusing on sleep quality. This also might be a thing where sleep quantity is also really important.

I just really want people to focus on sleep quality in general, but REM does occur during the last couple of hours of sleep, so it's a thing where if you are getting just quantity wise less sleep, you're not giving yourself ample time to even get to REM sleep and get enough of it. So, it's something where it actually really is important. Like time in bed might be really important. And then to circle back to what I was talking about in the beginning, magnesium. GABA is really, really important for sleep, as is magnesium in supporting that process. And then magnesium, just as a standalone, it's been shown to be calming, relaxing, to support sleep. So, magnesium in general does this. And then like I was saying before, magnesium threonate is if you want one type of magnesium to really really support sleep, you really want magnesium threonate.

It's going to cross the brain and it's going to help induce sleep and have a relaxing effect, especially for people who are struggling to fall asleep and not wanting to deal with pharmaceuticals and things like that. This can be a really powerful supplement to support your sleep. I say it's natural. It is modified to be in that form. Like, we make it to be in that form to cross the blood-brain barrier. But it is magnesium, it's not like a pharmaceutical. So, like I was talking about in the beginning, if you're listening today, it's your last chance to get 15% off my Magnesium Nightcap, which is the magnesium threonate, just use the code NIGHTCAP15 at avalonx.us. If you're one of the lucky people that got the launch special from my Magnesium 8, which is my full spectrum broad blend, they'll have a 25% off code that they were uniquely emailed. If you're listening past the 17th, use the code MELANIEAVALON to get 10% off. Or if you want a 20% off code, sorry for all the codes, text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. Okay, that was a lot about sleep. Cynthia, what are your thoughts on REM?

Cynthia Thurlow: When it comes to sleep support? There's a lot I remind my patients to be thinking about sleep when they wake up in the morning. We know that even if you're not tracking sleep, it's helpful to just kind of lean into a lifestyle. A lot of things that Melanie did a really nice job explaining. Getting sunlight on your retinas, getting sunlight on your eyes first thing in the morning, usually within the first hour, getting five to ten minutes. You can sit outside and drink your coffee, walk your dogs, etc. That can be very beneficial. It helps suppress melatonin and increase cortisol. I think about the things that are lifestyle mediated, so getting physical activity every day, all of us would probably agree if we're sedentary all day long, you're not going to get as good as sleep. Our bodies are conditioned to move, even if that means you do water aerobics or you do Zone 2 training and just walk. Definitely very beneficial. In fact, sometimes I feel like my less intense workouts are the ones that help me sleep best.

In terms of things that I think are the greatest needle movers at night, I would concur a cold dark room. I wear a silk sleep mask every night. It's not sexy, but guess what? Light exposure on your eyes in the middle of the night can actually cause some wakening up. I think for many women, they sleep really well until 35, 40, and then all of a sudden, sleep starts to become a little bit more elusive, and you start to think about hormonal fluctuations, things that are changing in the body, less progesterone, which can impact sleep quality, certainly onset of sleep, certainly anxiety and depression, waking up anxious, waking up with your heart pounding. So, before I talk more about lifestyle things, I want to just mention if you're 35 or 40 and you're starting to see your sleep quality erode or you're 45 or 50 and you've been there for a long time, get your hormones checked.

Progesterone can be life-changing for a lot of people. Actually, I'm in the midst of doing a program through A4M and they validate a lot of things that I tell women. Oral progesterone is going to be sedating. It's going to help with sleep onset. It upregulates GABA, it upregulates this inhibitory neurotransmitter, which can be very, very helpful for sleep onset. The other piece is for a lot of women, and there's still a great deal of fear-mongering about hormones in general. I do find that for those that it's appropriate for, estradiol replacement can help with sleep duration. So, you fall asleep with progesterone and all the lifestyle things and then estrogen can help with kind of buffering that waking up in the middle of the night.

The other thing I would say is, if you're waking up and you're not getting good sleep quality and your REM and deep sleep are not ideal based on WHOOP band data Oura Ring data, I start to think about is it a blood sugar issue. There are a lot of women who are not insulin sensitive in their perimenopausal years into menopause. Glucometer CGMs can be very helpful for teasing out what's going on in addition to HRT. And then in terms of supplements, the supplement that has made the biggest net impact in my sleep quality is Myo-inositol. I know that we talked about that a few weeks ago when Scott and I did a podcast. It really has made such a huge impact and we know that helps with sleep architecture, both with falling and staying asleep.

It's actually part of Dr. Huberman's Labs, Andrew Huberman's Sleep Stack, which I think says a lot. It works for men and women, but that in and of itself, it also helps with insulin sensitivity, helps upregulate GABA, dopamine, serotonin, all these neurotransmitters that can help us fall asleep. And then beyond that, I would say, if appropriate melatonin could be very, very helpful for sleep. When I look at my sleep metrics on my Oura, and so I've been able to track two years' worth of metrics. The things that have been the needle movers are the things that Melanie and I have kind of talked about, but also the use of HRT and Myo-inositol for me personally I would say. I would also kind of tag in there other things that are helpful, soaking in magnesium. Usually, I do a magnesium soak, you can soak your feet, soak your body. There are ways to increase the absorption of magnesium through your skin.

I think many people remember I've talked extensively about the fact that I have this whole arrhythmia background in cardiology. And so, we were constantly tinkering magnesium levels, potassium levels with patients to lessen the likelihood they would go back into arrhythmias, dysrhythmias, etc. And so, magnesium is really important. There're different types of magnesium, as I know Melanie has talked about, but I like to use transdermal magnesium. The product Ancient Minerals does a nice job. I have no affiliation with them. They just have a nice high-quality product. You can buy it on Amazon.

Taking oral magnesium, I think can be very very helpful. I have like a sleep stack with Myo-inositol and then also magnesium L-threonate because that crosses the blood-brain barrier. But I would say those are good things to start with. But if you don't have great sleep metrics, I think it's more important that you reflect on how you feel and not get caught up in the metrics because I think some people live and die by their data and I just kind of look at it and go, oh, that's great. I had 3 hours of REM sleep, I had two and a half hours of deep sleep, that's fantastic. That's really good, especially for someone at my stage of life. But I think kind of being cognizant of the things that are going to be the big needle movers are important, but don't get caught up in the metrics. Just like, I would say that people shouldn't get caught up, like if they have a blood sugar spike on a CGM, like, you just look at and go, okay, that's good data to have. Let's not do that again. So, I think that that could be very helpful.

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Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you touched on so many good things. I'm so glad you brought in all of the physical activity piece, so much of supporting sleep at night is like being active during the day and with the early light exposure. I'm so glad as well what you just said, I think is so important because I think there's one thing that's really going to not help your sleep. It's going to be really stressing about your sleep. Ironically, all of this self-data quantification can sometimes have the effect of not helping because people are so stressed about the numbers. So, a reason I do like Oura's, I feel like it's very encouraging in how it talks to you. It doesn't really make me stressed. I was worried that it was going to make me stressed about things sleep wise, but it really doesn't seem to have that effect on me. I will say if there is like a crazy night where I know that it's going to be really bad and I have to do something the next day, which is a rare occasion, but it does happen. I just don't look-- Mostly this is like traveling, I just don't look at it that day. And then I did think of like two other things that made me think of, so I recently posted actually a poll on my Instagram about what were people's favorite sleep hacks. I wish I could remember what the results were. People did really like different supplements, sleep remedy. So, Dr. Kirk Parsley's sleep remedy is really amazing. That's the one supplement where people where when they did that poll, they were like messaging me that one specifically.

It's basically a combination of different, all-natural precursors to what your brain needs to fall asleep. It works synergistically to help you fall asleep. So, definitely check that out. You can go to melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy, the code MELANIEAVALON will get you a discount. And then also going back to the alcohol piece, I do think it's really important. I can't emphasize enough the importance of, if you are drinking alcohol to drink like, Dry Farm Wines. It's funny because people will say, I actually had this conversation on Instagram with somebody the other day.

They made a black and white blanket statement like; you can't sleep well and drink alcohol. I know for me that's not a true statement because if I drink Dry Farm Wines minimal to moderate consumption, not directly before bed, I sleep fine. Like, I can see it on my Oura Ring. I think if you are drinking alcohol, doing it in a way that is not detrimental to your sleep. Not drinking right before bed and a lot of the conventional alcohol and wine in the US is just not good. It's high in sugar, high in alcohol, high in additives. I've said this a lot. But if the wine is making your teeth red, that is not from the grapes. That is because there is a dye added to the wine called Mega Purple.

So, we do not want this stuff in our body and I think it can have a pretty detrimental effect on our health. That's why I personally love dry farm wines. They are low sugar, low alcohol, and I found that having them I can sleep well, I can have my drink and drink it too. Our link for them is dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and that will get you a bottle for a penny, which is awesome. Anything else about the sleep thing?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I think we've got it. Do we have time for one more?

Melanie Avalon: Or we could share our announcement.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: How should we share the announcement? We did not plan this.

Cynthia Thurlow: Maybe I'll just say it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Sure.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Melanie knows what I'm going to share next, but I preemptively want to thank Melanie and Gin and the IF podcast team and the IF podcast community for an amazing last 10 months of being a cohost and welcoming me so graciously and so openly. My business is kind of shifting in a different direction and so I will be stepping down from the cohosting duties with IF podcast at the end of April. And we already have another cohost and I'm going to let Melanie share that news next week. But I wanted to make sure that listeners heard it from me directly. I haven't talked about it on social media, I won't talk about it on social media until after the announcement comes out, but I want to just wholeheartedly thank everyone for so much love and support. My team and I have been really overwhelmed with wonderful messages and lots and lots of support and it's been a really fun last 10 months.

Melanie Avalon: I know that's a big announcement for listeners, but I just wanted to emphasize how wonderful this whole journey has been. I feel like it really took the show in a new direction. I so love the-- Well, first of all, our friendship. I really appreciate your support and friendship and everything and so it was just really thrilling to do the show together. I really love the clinical perspective that you have brought to everything. I feel like we had a lot of questions building up that, honestly, we just wouldn't really touch on the show because prior to you being on the show, we didn't have knowledge or expertise to really talk about all of these things that women experience so much with their hormonal issues and perimenopause and menopause and all of this stuff. So, it was really exciting to really be able to provide that resource to listeners. I just really want to thank you for everything that you brought to the show. It's been really amazing. You'll be so missed, but it'll be open door. You'll have to come back for like a reunion episode at some point.

Cynthia Thurlow: And I would love that. I hope listeners know that Melanie and I are genuinely good friends and super supportive of one another and none of that will change. That was one of the first things I said to Melanie when I shared this news that this is not a breakup. This is just a pause. I know that the new cohost, I was really delighted to hear who the new cohost would be. I think you all will be very, very pleased with who this is. I'm not going to give any more details than that because it's not my place to share, but I wanted to make sure that everyone knew this is not a breakup. This is just a pause. I think that one thing I've learned in the past two years is that I have to really hold true to the direction my business is going in, and I think with the book last year, things were a whirlwind, a wonderful whirlwind.

But now things have kind of settled back down. It's like, okay, what are the things I need to be focusing in on? My kiddos are getting older and I have one who will be heading to college, gosh, in just over a little bit of a year and another in three and a half years, so getting really deliberate with my time. But thank you, Melanie. It's been such a pleasure to be able to cohost with you and be able to interact with these amazing, amazing listeners and community that you and Gin built.

Melanie Avalon: No, thank you. Thank you, really. I was thinking about it just now with Gin, she's not really in the biohacking sphere, so she has her fasting community, but it's a massive community. It's more a bubble that I'm not in quite as much because it's a slightly different audience, whereas I think you and I were in a very similar audience. The point of that is I think we're going to be talking all the time and we'll be running into each other probably a lot.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. That's what we keep saying eventually we're going to meet in person, but that hasn't happened yet. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm sure we will in some conference or something. I need to start going to things more.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, you do.

Melanie Avalon: I'm working on it. [laughs] Give me your travel skills, please.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, I love to travel. Let's just put it this way. We have a trip coming up next week and then I have another trip right after for business. And I'm always planning the next trip. Like, I just planned a trip for next November for my family, like, over a long weekend. It's like, that's just my mentality. It's like, let's keep traveling. So, it's fun.

Melanie Avalon: I'm very jealous like I said. If I didn't have the stress aspect that I get with disrupting my life because I love actually being at the places, it's like everything surrounding it. So yeah, listeners, stay tuned. Hopefully, if you're on the email list, you might have actually already received the announcement about the new cohost, but make sure you get on our email list. If not, you can get on that at ifodcast.com for listeners. You can get everything that we talked about in today's show in the show notes at ifpodcast.com/episode213. The show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. They will have links to everything that we talked about. We talked about a lot of things, so that will be very, very important. You can submit your own questions for the show by emailing questions@ifpodcast.com or going to ifpodcast.com and submitting questions there.

Like I said, we're not mentioning the cohost now, but I do think it's out there. If you already know who the cohost is and you'd like to submit specific questions for that person, feel free to do so. Yeah, I think that is all the things. Oh yeah, you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and we are @ifpodcast. So okie-dokie. Well, anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. See you on our last episode.

Melanie Avalon: I know, crazy. Well, I will see you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Apr 09

Episode 312: Creatine, Exercise, Chronic Cardio, Fasting and Menstruation, NSAIDS, Low Dose Aspirin, ApoB, Statins, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Episode 292: Creatine, Brain Health, Sex Hormones, Muscle Building, Insulin Sensitivity, Sarcopenia, Andropause, Mood, Motivation, BDNF, And More!

Welcome to Episode 312 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

AVALONX magnesium 8: Get Melanie’s Broad Spectrum Complex Featuring 8 Forms Of Magnesium, To Support Stress, Muscle Recovery, Cardiovascular Health, GI Motility, Blood Sugar Control, Mood, Sleep, And More! Tested For Purity & Potency. No Toxic Fillers. Glass Bottle. Get on the email list to stay up to date with all the special offers and news about Melanie's new supplements at Avalonx.Us/emaillist, and use the code melanieavalon for 10% on any order at Avalonx.Us and MDlogichealth.com!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

4:00 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

13:45 - AVALON X MAGNESIUM: Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

16:30 - Listener Q&A: michelle - Does Creatine Break a Fast?

16:30 - Listener Q&A: Gwen - Does Creatine break your fast?

Introducing... Creatine By Cynthia Thurlow

23:00 - Listener Q&A: Laura - Question

40:00 - Listener Q&A: Kristen- If and Periods; Does taking ibuprofen or Tylenol break a fast?

50:55 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

52:05 - Listener Q&A: Lauri - If Your current self and knowledge could go back in time to your younger self what would you do differently knowing what you know now as far as career and life hacks.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 312 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine and I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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That's because both fasting and the keto diet specifically deplete electrolytes. But here's the thing, so many electrolytes on the market are full of so many things that you don't want. We're talking fillers, junk, sugar, coloring, artificial ingredients, things you don't want to be putting in your body. That's why I love LMNT. It has none of that. It contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio of 1000 milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, and 60 milligrams of magnesium. Right now, LMNT is offering our listeners a free sample pack with any purchase. That's right, you can get eight single-serving packets for free with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all eight flavors or share LMNT with a salty friend. The raw unflavored version, by the way, is clean fast friendly. Get yours at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom slash ifpodcast. And LMNT offers, no questions asked refunds, so you can try it totally risk free. If you don't like it, share it with a salty friend and they will give your money back, no questions asked. You have nothing to lose, drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 312 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie. How are you today?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I did something sort of fun. I'm curious. Do you like jazz music?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. I definitely do. I got into that in my 20s when I was trying to drown out the noise of the street and study. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, now another tangent. [laughs] I'm reading a book right now called Golden: The Power of Silence in a World of Noise. And it's really funny because right before that, the book I read-- this was just complete happenstance, and this is all to interview people. So, the book before that was called Sentient, which blew my mind. Oh, my goodness. It was all about the different senses in animals and how it compares to humans and what we can learn from that. I didn't realize we have so many senses. And we do not just have five senses. We have like a ton, it's debated, but it's like up in the teens or maybe 20s. Can you think of some other ones? Besides the five?

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, I could talk about something that's not tangible, intuition. I do think about that on an energetic level. But that's another aspect of sensing information, energy, etc.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they didn't talk about any intuition senses, I don't think, but there're so many. There's like with touch, it's not just touch there's temperature sensing, there's pain sensing. So that's like two more right there. When it comes to sight, there's different types of sensing. There's like with sleep, for example, part of our eyes that have light informing our circadian rhythm, that's like a different sense. And it's not related to seeing. It's literally just the light-activating melanopsin cells that inform our circadian rhythm. So, that's technically a sense. There's a sense of balance. There's a sense of "Oh, I love this one, what's it called pracio--"

Cynthia Thurlow: Proprioception.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, proprio-- yeah whatever you just said, which is basically knowing where one of your body parts is?

Cynthia Thurlow: In time and space.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. And he talks about these fascinate-- Okay, some people-- There have been these times that have happened where people have not had that sense. There was this guy, and just one day, I don't know what happened, but he just lost that sense. And so, all of a sudden, he didn't know where his different body parts are. He could inform it if he could see his limb. That's how he taught himself to live without this sense. He couldn't walk when it first happened because he didn't know where his feet were. But eventually, he learned if he could watch, he could walk and stuff like that. But if he didn't, so if he had his hand-- like if he was watching his arm, he could direct his arm and make it do things. But if he wasn't watching his arm, it would just, like, do stuff. [laughs] Like it would just, like, move around [laughs] which I just find so funny. The animal they were talking about in relation to that, and sorry, this is so random. I just find it so fascinating. So, like, the octopus, for example, they think it has local, whatever that word is, proprioception.

Cynthia Thurlow: Proprioception.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. [laughs] I need to learn it before I interview. Their tentacles probably have that sense locally. So, when an octopus is doing stuff, all of its arms can do different things, and it's not really even aware unless it's looking at the arm and doing it on purpose. If you cut off an octopus' arm, it will actually keep doing stuff for a little bit. Like, it'll keep picking up stuff and try to feed it to the octopus, and they know it's intuitive. Like, they know it's not just muscle memory because they've done a study where they'll cut off an octopus' arm or tentacle, they'll give it normal food, and then like poison food, and the tentacle will only interact with the normal food and try to feed it back to the head that's no longer there.

So, that was such a tangent, it's a really fascinating book, Sentient. Oh, but the point of that was I read that, and then the next book I'm reading now is called Golden and it's about silence, which is the opposite, but not really because they kind of relate because they're both talking about our senses, which all goes back to what you were saying, which was trying to drown out the noise. The reason I brought that up was I went to really spontaneously, a friend from college came in town and we found this really nice jazz club where they do like dinner and drinks, and it was like super classy. I love just doing completely random stuff like that. It was not planned. There were two tickets left. We're just going to do this. It was a Fleetwood Mac jazz band. It was a great time, so yeah. Do you like doing super spontaneous random stuff?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's harder because we have kids and dogs. There's not a ton of spontaneity, although I think this summer, we're going to have both the boys in-- one's going to be an engineering camp at Duke and the other one will be kind of in an entrepreneurial Duke program. We'll have overlap where both the kids are going to be away at the same time. I said to my husband, this is wild. [laughs] Never are home by ourselves for extended periods of time. So, this will be interesting, maybe then we'll be able to do something totally spontaneous. But no, not a lot of spontaneity over the last 18 years because of kids and dogs and all sorts of stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man, I can imagine. Well, you have to let me know if you do some fun stuff then.

Cynthia Thurlow: Definitely.

Melanie Avalon: Anything new in your life?

Cynthia Thurlow: Not a whole lot. We're getting ready to-- by the time these airs, we will have just gotten back from our spring break vacation. So, I'm really looking forward to going to Portugal. And we've got a really fun itinerary. It's like one of my favorite things to do as a family is to vacation with them. By the time this is airing, we will have just gotten back from Portugal, which should be a lot of fun.

Melanie Avalon: Very exciting. I cannot wait to hear about all the things.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

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Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, we have two questions, which are the same question. One comes from Michelle and the subject is, "Does creatine break a fast?" Michelle says, "Hi, Melanie and Cynthia, I love your podcast. This may be a question you've already answered, and if so, could you direct me to the episode?" I will say really quickly for people, if you go to ifpodcast.com there's a search bar and we have transcripts of all the episodes so you can search, and if we talked about it is probably on the website. That search bar is actually very effective, because some websites searches are not very good, but ours works pretty well. Okay, so she says, "I am wondering about how to utilize creatine on days of extended fasting. For example, if I plan to do a 36 to 42-hour fast once or twice a week, how does creatine factor into that? Will creatine stop autophagy in its tracks? If I take it on my down day, extended fast day, and/or is it okay to not take creatine once or twice a week, and how will that affect the storage levels of creatine in my body overall?" If the purpose of autophagy is to use junk proteins in my body to create new proteins, wouldn't I want to encourage autophagy, even if that meant not taking creatine for a day or two? I'm a 58-year-old postmenopausal woman who began intermittent fasting eight months ago. I'm active and fit for my age and regularly engage in strength training as well as cardio activities, running, and biking. I also hike and walk a lot with my two dogs. I implemented some extended fast into my protocol due to a fasting insulin level of 44.4," wow, "which decreased to 3.3 within three months." Wow. That's wow. Okay. [laughs] She says, "I have a history of both type 1 and 2 diabetes in my family, so the fasting insulin was not a surprise." Thank you so much for your podcast. I learned so much from you both. I would just comment really quickly that's incredible that in three months, your insulin went from 44.4 to 3.3. Crazy. And then Gwen says, "Does creatine break your fast?" So, this is definitely a Cynthia question.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Michelle, thank you for your question and Gwen, I would point you in the direction in terms of creatine information to Episode 292 that I did with Scott Emmens, the COO of MD Logic, and there's a lot of really helpful information in there. I think my general recommendations about creatine for women are that we want to aim to take it daily because we make 70% to 80% less creatine than men. We know, based on research, that women that are having a menstrual cycle as well as perimenopausal, menopausal women, we have fluctuations in our needs throughout the month.

Obviously, menopausal women, you're not having as much hormonal flux, but we still benefit from a brain health and metabolic health perspective. I generally recommend that you take it in a feeding window because it will stop autophagy. If you are doing extended fast, I would recommend that you just skip taking creatine on that day. I do think it's important to be consistent. If it's a day where you're not lifting weights, you still want to take creatine as well as on days that you are lifting weights. I think it's amazing that you've had such improvement in your fasting insulin levels. To go from 44 to 3 is pretty significant in such a short span of time. So, congratulations and kudos for taking such good care of your health and certainly we're so glad to know that you enjoy the podcast.

Big takeaways are take creatine in your feeding window. If you are doing an extended fast, you can hold the creatine because it will technically break a clean fast. But with that being said, consistency is really where you see the most benefits. I have a 70-year-old, very petite client/friend of mine who weighs 90 pounds, who can actually do a leg press of over 300 pounds after taking consistent creatine. And so, it's really amazing. It's not just something that benefits younger women, it benefits all women. But a great question, so thanks for asking.

Melanie Avalon: Do you know about her question about storage levels of creatine? Does the body store creatine?

Cynthia Thurlow: We have 70% to 80% less endogenous creatine, which is why it is very important that we supplement. You don't get enough from your diet. I don't care how much steak you eat, you cannot replete to the same degree that men can, so yes you will-- Creatine monohydrate is something that's up-taken by our muscles, but the benefits come from taking it on a daily basis. That's why I haven't missed taking a dose in, gosh, like 16 months. I think it's really made a big difference in not just sleep, but also in how I'm able to lift heavy at the gym, which is important to me because I want to maximize muscle protein synthesis. So, like, the nutrition, the creatine, the lifting heavy, all are really integral and important to be able to do that. But yeah, you have a lot less storage capacity as a female, which is why you can't eat enough creatine-laden foods, and that's why exogenous creatine is so important.

Melanie Avalon: Gotcha. And how can people get your creatine?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, really easy. If you go to my website, it's www.cynthiathurlow.com/creatine and you will have direct access. Right now, we just started a subscription service and that's been really well received. People are excited to be able to get discounts on purchasing and knowing that they will never run out. Because I know that I sometimes forget I'm running out of supplements and then I have to wait a week or two until I get new ones. This just makes it very easy and seamless.

Melanie Avalon: I love the subscription options. By the time these airs, we will have like, mm, a few weeks ago launched. We're testing out a larger bottle subscription option for Serrapeptase and then hopefully extend it to the other supplements as well. But always just trying to make things even more sustainable because right now with the bottle supplements, the subscription, you basically get three bottles at once for a few months. So, then you're saving on shipping and it's better for the environment and all that. But now we're taking it one step further and doing a large bottle. So, yes, definitely subscriptions are the way to go for all the products if it's something that's in your daily life, and they usually have a built-in discount. I'm assuming that Creatine has a built-in discount with the subscription.

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome. All righty. Shall we go on to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. This is from Laura. Subject is question. I stumbled across your books, podcasts, and community about a month ago after rereading the Obesity Code. I absolutely, but not literally ate your books up and then read them again. I've always been an intermittent faster 19/5, however, never realized that's what I was doing. I was also exercising three to five times per week. I stayed a small size eight, Australian size, for about eight years until the pandemic, when I went from approximately 62 to 63 kg to 73 kg. I was eating excessively to cope with my work and overall stress. It was my heaviest weight ever, I felt horrible.

I dragged myself back to the gym when restrictions eased and went low carb, which I still do the majority of the time, with the exception of chocolate on Shark Week, you know when that is and special events. When I read your books and connected the dots that this was what I have always done but never knew, I was beyond thrilled. I immediately started. I had structure and abundance in information, and I knew my body loved this way of eating. I don't weigh myself, but I can see that I am down at least two pant sizes with a combination of intermittent fasting, low-carb-ish diet, and continue to work out about three times a week in addition to walking my dogs. My body has been used to four to five days of exercise, weights, walking, and cardio class. But as I work as a nurse around the clock, and I'm getting older at 37, I would prefer to keep my exercise less vigorous and control my weight through my diet as much as possible, with exercise adding to my health and not dictating it.

A very long intro for a short question, I apologize, but during the weight-loss period, how much exercise do you recommend and also in maintenance? My thigh area is really the hardest to budge, and I don't want to run 35 km a week or train five days to slim them down again. Love all the way from Australia, Laura.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Laura. Well, thank you for your question. Cynthia, do you ever watch Shark Week?

Cynthia Thurlow: I used to when my kids were younger.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think I-- it was never really my thing, but I actually-- [laughs] a guy that I dated for quite a while, he did a segment once on it. I think he went in a cage. I don't know why he was doing that, but he went in a cage and like, oh, that's what he did. He built a suit to swim with the sharks not in a cage. He was a magician. So, fun times.

Cynthia Thurlow: Did I ever tell you that when I was in South Africa with my husband for our 10th wedding anniversary, we did shark diving?

Melanie Avalon: No. With great whites?

Cynthia Thurlow: They chum the water. Do you know what chum is? It's like--

Melanie Avalon: No, what does that mean?

Cynthia Thurlow: Bits of fish and innards they throw in the water to attract blood. They attract sharks. No need to ever do that again.

Melanie Avalon: Was it scary?

Cynthia Thurlow: I was more freaked out that I had a head-toe wetsuit on. Like, I just felt like sensory wise, I was so fixated on the fact-- and they put a weight belt on me, I'm not a big person, and they were concerned I wasn't going to be able to get to the bottom of the cage. And I just remember as soon as there was an opportunity to get out of said cage, I was happy to never do that again. I mean, the sharks come right up to you. It's not like they're far away. It was a very interesting experience; one I don't ever need to do again. I have great respect for sharks. I don't need to connect with them in that capacity ever again. But my husband was delighted. He thought it was the coolest thing ever.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, wait, so to get into the cage, do you get into the cage where it's like-- [crosstalk]

Cynthia Thurlow: From the boat on the top.

Melanie Avalon: Where the sharks are going to be before they chum them, call them over.

Cynthia Thurlow: The cage is attached to the boat, and the people that take you out, I mean, they're conservationists, so they're very conscientious about-- you know they're the people that are out studying the sharks. The unfortunate thing is, I've now heard I mean, we will have been married for 20 years this year, so 10 years ago, there were still quite a bit of sharks outside of the Cape Town area, and now there aren't as many. And so, people may desire to go out and do that kind of activity, but there's no guarantee they'll actually see sharks. So, yeah, you're in a cage attached to the side of the boat in a head-toe wetsuit with a weight belt, and then you get to watch. It's kind of surreal. I mean the whole time I kept thinking, I don't want to leave my children, orphans. I want to make sure we get back from South Africa. Definitely not, like my husband thought it was awesome. I think I was completely exhausted from the stress. Definitely not the most enjoyable thing I've ever done.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, that would not be my thing. [laughs] How long were you down in the cage?

Cynthia Thurlow: Like 15 or 20 minutes.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, okay, that's cool. [laughs] That's up there for cool things.

Cynthia Thurlow: Totally bizarre. So, yeah, when you talk about Shark Week, I'm like Ah-Ha [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I think the things out of all the nature things that you can do, I think the thing that would freak me out the most that I just could not do would be the cave where you crawl through really small cave spaces.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm claustrophobic, that would be a .

Melanie Avalon: I would literally have a panic attack. I could not do that, because I remember my parents in Hawaii, they did one where-- I think it was, you went and looked at some really nice caves, but you had to crawl to get to them through these tunnels. And I was like, nope. So, I could do like hot air-- have you done a hot air balloon?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not. You know it's funny, we've done a lot of pretty adventurous stuff, but there are definitely things that we have not officially done. And that would be another one. I think we had talked about doing that in Turkey, but given the humanitarian crisis there and in Syria, I'm not sure that's going to happen either. But that's okay.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Would you do Skydiving?

Cynthia Thurlow: We've done Skydiving. I mean, I've done it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you've done it?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I mean, we've done quite a bit-- when I tell you, especially having boys, there's just a lot of stuff that you have to get comfortable with, like cave diving and I mean, we've done it all. That was definitely like my kids think going to-- there's Costa Rica trip we took December of 2021. They'll always talk about how that's one of their favorite vacations ever. It was the vacation where I said, I will never do this again. [laughs] They thought it was awesome. I'm like, no thanks. I don't need to be wet for like two days straight, nope.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. And was skydiving scary?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, but not as much as the shark stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Okay.

Cynthia Thurlow: It was just a lot. So, I think it's all relative. You know for me. We do our research, we make sure that we're going with qualified people. For me, it was like trusting in the process. There's so much of just letting go.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. If I had to, I could do skydiving. Going back to you talking about putting on that suit, it's more the things you have to wear in these different adventures that I don't like. That's usually like the thing. I don't know, putting in all the gear and getting up there and the effort required to make it happen is what I don't like so much. But if I just popped up in the top of a plane and they were like, okay, jump out now, I probably could, but I don't seek it out. So, okay, Laura, so thank you for mentioning Shark Week, because that is what happens with that.

So, to answer your question, first of all, congrats on your lifestyle approach and everything. I love what you said about how with exercise specifically, you want to control your weight through your diet as much as possible with exercise adding to your health and not dictating it. And I think that is such a beautiful approach to exercise.

So many people do turn to chronic cardio and exercise as the modality to lose weight. I just feel like it's pretty consistently shown that that approach, like, solely exercise. So, trying to burn off calories at the gym is not the most effective way to lose weight. The body is, especially when it's like long at longer durations of exercise. And actually, Dave Asprey, who I am interviewing week after next, I think. Thank you, Cynthia, for that reconnection. His new book called Smarter Not Harder I think. He talks all about this. So, when you're putting your body into longer term approaches of stress like exercise, in order to lose weight, that just doesn't give the body the signals it needs to get the results that you want compared to short, punctuated, intense, basically gives you much more bang for your buck.

The reason I say all of that is when it comes to weight loss and exercise, I would err on the side of-- you know if you're going to do it being super way more effective with it. Things like HIIT, interval training, high-intensity interval training, and going hard and fast, really short and then recovering rather than like this chronic exercise, which is probably not going to give you the results that you want.

Of course, that's different from people who approach it just because they really love it. Like some people love running and they do want to run a 35 km stint or they do want to train multiple days a week. If that's what you do because it makes you happy, go for it. If your main goal is weight loss, that's not the approach I would take. It sounds like with you, Laura, that you don't want to be doing this really intense exercise. So, I would definitely say don't worry about it.

Especially you're a nurse, you're working around the clock, so you're getting a lot of physical activity and physical movement, which is great. So, when it comes to the exercise side of things, I would recommend actually focusing on muscle and strength training if you're going to do things like that. Because maintaining our muscles is so key for longevity, health, and for weight, because by creating muscle, that actually does help you burn fat, raises your metabolism, makes you more toned, just has so many benefits.

So, I would focus more on the strength training side of things. And then when it comes to exercise, for-- she asked about the weight loss period versus the maintenance period. Again, I actually go back to what I was just saying and that I wouldn't use exercise as like the weight loss key. So, I wouldn't even really think in those terms. I would focus like you're doing on your diet and your fasting and your lifestyle and your sleep, which being a nurse, I don't know how your sleep is, but I would focus on all of that as the pillar or the foundation, and then add in exercise in a way that makes you happy. Whatever helps with your stress and then for the actual weight loss, focusing on more interval-type approaches and the strength training side of things. So, Cynthia, what are your thoughts?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I mean, this is a 37-year-old female and I think it's really important to understand what's starting to happen physiologically in our bodies towards the beginning of perimenopause. So, late 30s, early 40s is when most women are hitting that time period in their lives. I think it's really important to not be over fasting, to not be over restricting, to not be over exercising, which is a problem that I see in a lot of women. Understanding when to fast during your menstrual cycle and when you should not be fasting and I do a great deal of discussion about this in my book Intermittent Fasting Transformation.

I think that it's much more important that you are doing things like Zone 2 training and also weight training. I think that's far more important than doing chronic cardio. And you have to do stuff that you enjoy. If you're saying that you're running 35 km a week and then you're also training on top of that, that sounds like that's a lot of stress that you're putting your body under. And there are times in your menstrual cycle when you can get away with a lot of training and times when you need to back off. Again, I talk about this a lot in the book. I just think you have to be attuned to understanding the role of estrogen and progesterone and how you can eat and train for both those hormones and the menstrual cycle.

So, more focusing on targeted weight training and Zone 2 training. Some nurses are active and some are not, so it really depends clinically where you're working. I know that people that are in certain areas of the hospital, they may just be standing all day long, versus an ER nurse is going to be doing a lot of movement, versus an ICU nurse may just be one-on-one with one patient. I think a lot of it comes down to where are you in your menstrual cycle. Understanding that the over fasting, too much low carb, too much over exercising can really put your body under quite a bit of stress.

And it sounds like you're very nicely attuned to the influences of what works well for you and what does not. And especially during the pandemic, noticing that once you're able to get back to the gym, you could kind of get back into a rhythm and a routine. I think that's probably the best recommendations I have is to make sure that you acknowledge our own physiology as a component of successful fasting and exercise management. But I don't think any of us should think that exercise is the way to attain the body that you want.

I think we have to really understand that lifestyle, the sleep, the stress management, the right types of nutrition are going to be the most important component. And then exercise should be one way that we support our bodies but it shouldn't be the one lever that we push in an effort to stay a certain size. Over time, you'll just find that that's not as effective or as efficacious.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I definitely made a big assumption there about the nurse that she was the type that's moving around a lot, but that could manifest a lot of different ways. You do go to the gym and do like weights, right?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do, three days a week. That's like usually the goal. And I've also been doing more Pilates as well.

Melanie Avalon: Do you work with a trainer for the weights?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have a trainer, but I work with her app, so I'm pretty self-motivated. I acknowledge that probably makes me weird, but she monitors what I'm doing in the app and so that's worked really well for me because very much when I go to the gym, it's not a social experience. I like to get in and get out. I'm very deliberate and it's just not a social experience for me. I'm certainly friendly, but I'm not there to hang out with girlfriends. I'm there to get in and get like a 30 to a 45 minutes workout done and then get back out so that I can get my work day started.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm not, I am not a gym person, and it was never a social thing. I have a mirror gym thing, and I don't use it. I really should try it. Wait, you said Pilates. I should try it for Pilates just to see if I like it or tai chi or something. I feel like if I got into a habit of it, I might like it.

Cynthia Thurlow: I definitely like it. I actually preferred solid core, which I found more challenging, but there's not a studio that's really close to where we live, it's a little bit of a drive, so Pilates has kind of taken the place of that. But I've kind of gravitated towards the instructors that are just a little more tough because I like that challenge. There's definitely a mental challenge to be engaging your core as much as you do. And I definitely enjoy the social aspect of seeing certain people in those classes, but I tend to be a lone wolf. I like to do my own thing, and I think as an introvert, it's kind of like why I don't really bring social media into the gym with me. I may take a photo, but I'm never going to be that person who's going to feel comfortable with someone filming me in the gym, because that's my time. That's my decompression time.

Melanie Avalon: My version of the gym. I do the EMSCULPT a lot and where I go, which I love. So, Slim Studio in Atlanta, plugging them, they often say that they want me to do promotional videos or things like that. I'm like, I just want to come here this is like, my me-time. I don't want a camera. I don't want to like get dressed up.

Cynthia Thurlow: But I think it's also important to just honor who you are as an individual. Like, I'm an introvert, so for me I acknowledge that on social media there are things I do share, but there are a lot of things I don't. Another example is people always want to know, give us a house tour, show us what your house looks like. And my kids don't want that. They want some degree of privacy. So, I think there's probably a happy medium. And I know businesses love to have their place of business featured on social media, but I just remind people that everyone's got a different comfort level, and I'm sure the extroverts of the world, they're totally fine with that. I think you have to be true to who you are and do what makes you feel most comfortable.

Melanie Avalon: I agree. Well, our next question actually relates to something that you were just talking about a little bit. So, this is good timing. So, Kristen has two questions and the first one is, "Is it wise to fast while on your period given the fluctuations in hormones?" So, this is something that we just talked about, but do you have any other thoughts if you wanted to add to that piece Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I talk about this extensively in the book. You don't want to fast five to seven days preceding your menstrual cycle for a variety of reasons. This is really a time to back off on fasting, no more than 12 to 13 hours. And depending on the individual, some people feel well enough to start fasting again once they start menstruating. Really dependent on the woman, I've met several women who've just said that they just feel weak until they get to the end of their menstrual period. But 12 to 13 hours is certainly reasonable.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay. And then her second question. She wants to know, "Does taking ibuprofen or Tylenol break a fast?"

Cynthia Thurlow: I think the real question should be, everything I've ever read and certainly directions that I've given to patients is that anti-inflammatory agents like Motrin, like Aleve, like ibuprofen, should be taken with food to help buffer the impact on the gut microbiome. And Tylenol is another product. Years and years ago, we used to use quite a bit of it in the ER, and I think the safety and efficacy of Tylenol just really gives me pause. In fact, we don't even carry it in my house anymore, so I would definitely take that with food. I would avoid taking it in a fasted state. It really depletes glutathione, which is a master antioxidant in the body. Years ago, when we used to use 3 to 4 grams with patients, we now know that everyone has a different therapeutic index for Tylenol or acetaminophen. And so, I generally recommend avoiding it or using it in very limited quantities and not certainly at larger doses.

Melanie Avalon: How do you feel about low-dose aspirin?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think of aspirin differently. I mean, it works differently than NSAIDs and acetaminophen. It's interesting because I'm in the midst of a big cardiac workup, which is kind of a surprise. I'm having a coronary artery calcium score done on Thursday, and I'm doing a CIMT, which is this carotid intima-media thickening to kind of look at my carotids. I think aspirin is pretty benign, but like, a baby aspirin, I think, is fairly benign. When I fly, if I'm doing long distances, I'll take a baby aspirin. It just helps with the antiplatelet function. To me, I think of that as much more benign than some of these other drugs.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm so fascinated by aspirin. It's one of those things. So, I take an aspirin daily, but I know it's debated. I know recently they released some study saying that these benefits of aspirin were not accurate or whatever. I need to do a deeper dive into the literature. But, yeah, it's something I'm always curious about with the cardio workup. Do you have thoughts on ideal ApoB levels?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, ideally, I think under 70 or under 80 is what we're ideally looking for. I think when it's elevated above that, it isn't, per se, a knee-jerk reaction that someone needs to be on a statin agent or needs to be on aspirin. But it does beg the question of what else could be driving inflammation in the body, number one. Number two is, do they have latent cardiovascular disease that they're just not aware of? And interestingly enough, my ApoB has always been under that threshold. But the last bit of labs we did, it was 130. And so, my functional medicine doc is kind of at a loss. He said I feel obligated to do some testing just by virtue of the fact that there's some degree of inflammation. We don't know what's driving it.

So, my lipids otherwise look pretty good. We did Lp(a), we did ApoB, we did my fasting insulin is 3, you know my A1c is low, my high-sensitivity CRP is low. So, we're not sure if it's just this, errant lab value or there's something else going on. So, I've got a little bit of a work up coming up in the near future, this week and next week that I had to kind of begged to get squeezed in because I was like, I'm not waiting until next month. I need you to do these tests now so that we don't need to be concerned about this.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so fascinated by it. So, this has haunted me. I don't know if you listened to this Peter Attia's recent episode all on ApoB, I'd be really curious your thoughts on this. He was talking about the ideal levels that you would need for ApoB to be a centenarian. He basically said that it probably needs to be something that is only achievable with statins, so like 30s or 20s. I was like, "Oh, do I need to get on a statin?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, the side effects of statins are pretty significant. My functional medicine, integrative Medicine doc is not a fan of using them at all. We talked about would it be cholestyramine, would it be Zetia? I think the cognitive net impact of a statin agent is something that has to really be carefully evaluated before people just think of it as this benign entity. Unfortunately, there's just too much research to demonstrate that there can be potential harmful impact of being on long-term statin therapy. I've certainly watched family members that have been on statins that have had some significant cognitive decline, which has been concerning as a clinician and as a family member as well.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Yeah, I was thinking all about it not about getting a statin, but so Inside racker, they're actually a sponsor on today's episode and I was trying to find-- I don't think we have the link for them yet, but I think it's probably-- so listen to the ad in today's episode to confirm or check the show notes. I think it's probably going to be insidetracker.com/ifpodcast probably with the coupon code IFPODCAST. They just recently released an ApoB test, which was really exciting because I had been dying to test mine and I feel like it's just not very common something that doctors test.

So, they added it to their ultimate plan, which is their entire order of biomarkers related to longevity and you can add on this inner age thing where you get a sense of your "True biological inner age." But it was nice to see that. So, my ApoB level, I'd have to double-check. It was in the 70s, so that was really interesting to see. But the coupon code hopefully IFPODCAST will get you a discount there. Well, keep us updated on what you find with all of your stuff. It's nice that you have your background, that you have a lot of knowledge with all of this because I feel like so many people will probably just be really lost in testing all that information and learning from it.

Cynthia Thurlow: I know too much and that's both a blessing and a curse. But I also know my personality and my feeling is I just want to know. I have to go back for more blood work this week. I have my CAC on Thursday. I have the CIMT. Those are both noninvasive for anyone that's listening. They're generally not covered by insurance, but thankfully they're not particularly expensive. But if my CAC score is 0 then that's great. If my carotid intimal, the inside aspect of my carotid arteries is not narrowed by plaque then that's a lot less concerning. But we have to get the information and then review it. And I feel very comfortable and confident with my provider, although he thinks there's probably something that's going on with my gut.

I came back from London and did a bunch of testing, just routine testing, and one of the first calls I got was from the office saying, "Are you having any symptoms? Because your stool study showed salmonella." And I was like, well, I did eat steak tartar when I was in London, but it was a good restaurant, like a very, very high-end restaurant. Here's a fun fact, that's a diagnosis that the lab is required to share with the public health department. So, I had an epidemiologist call me yesterday to ensure that I was not symptomatic. I just said, listen, I'm a clinician, I get it, I know you're doing your due diligence, I have no symptoms, I've discussed with my physician, I don't think you need-- and they're like, "Is anyone else sick in your family?" I was like, "I was in London and I ate rare steak or rare meat." It could very well then where I got it from, but I'm not symptomatic at all. But it became very humorous, my husband was like, "Good Lord, [laughs] you're so high maintenance." I'm like, "No, it's just digging for different things." So never a dull moment. So, for listeners, know that you are not alone in trying to figure out what's going on with your health. I'm a constant work in progress.

Melanie Avalon: I've eaten so much raw meat in my life, [laughs] I actually recently did a round. Have I talked on the show or are you familiar with Mimosa pudica?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think you've talked about it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I did another round of it recently. I kind of want to add it, like, eventually make it one of my AvalonX supplements because it's just so cool. It's basically this gelatinous material supplement. I don't know what it comes from. It just grabs and paralyzes things. Yeah, the pictures people post online of stuff that comes out. But I've done it in the past. Yeah, I definitely have talked about this on the show. They'll say that because if you open one of the capsules and put it in water, you'll see what it becomes, which is like this long stringy thing. So, you can see how if it just went through you and came out, it would look like a parasite anyways. So, you have to keep that in mind. But when it pulls out things that are very evidently not the supplement, it's crazy and people swear by it. But yeah, I feel like I should maybe do like a round of that, like once a year just because of all the rare meat that I eat and have eaten. I'm really bad about that. So, it's interesting to me that you're concern about having it one time and being worried. I'm like, "Oh, I've eaten, like, pounds and pounds of rare meat all the time."

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I was just trying to think of something that might have been a precipitant. The good thing is, my doctor and I were messaging back and forth through the portal, he was talking about standard of care is this, I'm reluctant to put you on antibiotics unless we have to. You could also be a carrier. I'm like that's even more disgusting. There are people out there who just carry some of these microorganisms and they're not symptomatic. It's kind of like having a friend that just kind of hangs out in your colon. It'll be interesting to see what the rest is because I did a three-day stool test, which in and of itself is a disgusting hot mess. But it'll be interesting to get all those results and have a better sense of what's going on throughout my body.

Melanie Avalon: Well, definitely keep us updated.

Cynthia Thurlow: Our next podcast sponsor is Athletic Greens. I initially gave AG1 a try, because I wanted to increase my energy and support immunity. I take AG1 typically in the morning, after a workout, and prior to breaking my fast. It's way more than just greens. It has all your key health products like multivitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics, and more working together as one. AG1 has been part of millions of mornings since 2010. With just one scoop, I get the nutrients and gut health support that helps my whole body thrive and covers my nutritional bases. To me, my life is busy and I love to simplify my life as much as possible. It's made with 75 super high-quality vitamins, minerals, and whole food sourced ingredients that deliver benefits to my immune system, support my sleep, and improve my energy. So, if you want to take ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. Go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast that's athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast. Check it out.

Next question is from Lori. "If your current self and knowledge could go back in time to your younger self, what would you do differently knowing what you know now as far as career and life hacks," interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. This is such a hard question and there're so many things, and I think it's mostly just that-- well, life hack-wise this is probably the biggest. I really wish growing up I had eaten healthy. I wish I had eaten whole foods, like natural good foods, not all that processed junk. I'm glad that I haven't been eating that for a while, but yeah, it's just-- I was listening to a podcast interview last night. I don't remember which one it was, but they were talking about how basically if we had no processed foods and everybody just ate real food, like the effect that that would have on chronic disease. Not that it would be nonexistent, but I mean, it would be shocking, the difference. Yeah, life wise, that's probably the main life thing. And then all of the amazing biohacking-type things that I experience now that I love. I of course, I'm like, "Oh, I could have been doing this earlier."

I try not to think that way. I try to just think about everything that I love now and have gratitude for it now and not think in the mindset of, like, would have, should have, could have, not having regrets. But career hacks the thing that comes to mind, actually. And it's something where I'm very happy with the trajectory of my life and my career. I think it's been taking me a while to become really autonomous and actually move forward on a lot of projects that I wanted to do and not being scared, because it's really scary to, like you know especially being like a self-employed entrepreneur, took me a long time to just jump all in with that. Actually, that's what-- I lost my-- I was doing a surveying job for quite a while and I lost it with the pandemic and that's what really made me bite the bullet. So, honestly, if the pandemic hadn't happened, I might still be waiting tables, which is not a bad thing. I don't mean to say that as a bad thing, just that it took that push to actually not be scared, to try to just be self-employed, which is a very scary concept, but you can do it. And actually, interestingly, the woman I interviewed yesterday, she runs a company called Encircled, and she makes sustainable clothing. Friends listen to this interview when I air it was mind blowing. We talk about toxins a lot, like toxins and skincare and makeup and food in our environment, but we don't talk about our clothes. It's crazy. So, there's like, chemicals in clothes, like A lot of clothes when they're shipped internationally, they actually spray them with preservatives. About the majority of what we focused on actually wasn't so much the toxins. She's certified by this. There's this company that certifies clothing manufacturers. It was more, though, about sustainability and greenwashing and the clothing industry. And it was so fascinating. Why am I saying that?

Oh, so she talked about how she had a corporate job 9:00 to 5:00 and had this clothing company on the side, and making that decision to just jump all in with it was, she said, like, terrifying. And I hear that story so often. So, I really encourage people with their careers and whatever passions they have to just jump in. Obviously, you have to be responsible, and you do have to pay the bills. I understand that's very multifaceted and layered, but I do want to encourage people to just follow their dreams, and you can do it. And then just like a very more specific thing is, I do think press and PR as much as I loathe it is really important. And it's something I feel like I wish I focused on it earlier, but also, it's very expensive. So, it's like, I don't know that I could have done it more earlier.

Yes. Oh, and then last thing, sorry for all the things. I feel like this is something that I'm going to wish I had started earlier. Somebody did reach out to me after I talked about this last time on the podcast. So, I am looking to get an intern. So, if the position is still open, I'm going to post it online. I'm waiting, I think, for it to be approved. But I'm going to send out a thing on my email list. So, get on my email list at melanieavalon.com/emaillist. Or if you're interested, just email me at podcast@melanieavalon.com. I think that's something I'm going to wish I had started sooner.

So, also, just in general, I'm sort of a control freak. And so, with my career, I always feel like I have to do all the things and be in control, and learning how to outsource and let go of things I think has been really helpful. And then just life hack in general, I wish I'd focused more on gratitude historically and not been so stressed. So, all the things to help with stress. Okay, that was a lot. Cynthia, how about you?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think I ended up exactly where I was supposed to be. I started off as a pre-law major and got into law school and then decided I didn't want to go to law school. And so, I worked for two years and had really a job that reaffirmed for me that I didn't want to be in corporate America, no offense to anyone who loves doing that. Went back to school for premed classes and got two more degrees. I think medicine for me was absolutely the place I needed to be. I was so intellectually stimulated. I loved that I saw different things every day I went to work. I spent all of my 20s really just being surrounded by some of the smartest people I've ever met in my entire life. I wouldn't per se change anything in that regard. But I think that I would have probably pivoted earlier.

I don't believe in the would've, should've, could've, but I think if I had not been so appropriately focused on raising little people and for anyone that's listening that has small children, you know that raising them at that stage is all, like, consuming, because you can't leave them. They can't trust themselves. They can't feed themselves. They can't bathe themselves. I might have actually left medicine earlier to become an entrepreneur, but I think things kind of worked out the way they were supposed to. I don't think per se, I would have changed my career path because I'm exactly where I need to be. But I think that I probably would have thought differently about nutrition. I think back when I was younger, I just assumed things that were in the grocery store were all innocuous and benign and assumed that when you went to restaurants everything was innocuous and benign.

And now of course I know differently. But there's not a lot that I would honestly change because I've been so blessed and so fortunate to have a great life partner, healthy happy kids, a really great career, I've got a great team, there's not a ton I would change. I think the intermittent fasting piece came about at the right time for me. I don't think that I would have really been interested in doing that when I was younger because when you're breastfeeding kids, you're hungry all the time I don't care how much food you eat. That would not have been a good time for me to do that.

Up until I was probably 40, the way I was eating really worked well for me and it wasn't until I hit the wall of perimenopause. Not a lot of things that I would change, but I think I probably would have pivoted a bit earlier in my nurse practitioner career. But I also think on a lot of levels at the time that I left, within a year or two, were able to be fully autonomous in our state without a practice agreement. I think things have just kind of naturally evolved for me and not a whole lot that I would change, to be honest with you. I feel fortunate for being able to say that. But as I've stated in other podcasts, I think I've always been doing the work and working diligently. I think I probably would have been less of a people pleaser if there's one thing I would have probably done differently. I'm a really good nurse practitioner.

But one of the reasons why I got along with my peers so well was I was very accommodating versus now I would not be so accommodating. I would definitely stand up for myself more than I did. And I wasn't doing it in a way that it compromised patient care, but just from a thoughtful perspective. We worked with a lot of very domineering, strong personality male physicians and sometimes I would just go with the flow because I didn't want to argue, whereas now I might not be so willing to be so accommodating. But that's a great question.

Melanie Avalon: We're so similar because I feel the same way as you. I really am grateful for everything and how it's manifested. Like, me saying these things is not like the would've, should've, could've. Like everything I feel like did happen the way it was supposed to happen. I think a lot of it is like evolutions of mindsets that have shifted that I find so helpful. I think especially doing more inner work and becoming aware of-- I'm triggered by something like what does that mean? And being aware of how you're reacting to the world and something I just learned, actually in Gabor Maté's book, which is something I think is really going to stick with me.

He talks about a new definition of forgiveness, which I thought was really beautiful. I just pulled it up. He said it's to grieve for what did happen, what didn't happen, and to give up the need for a different past, to accept life as it was and as it is. So not taking it as acceptable, but just that it happened and that it will not define my life negatively now. And I'm really excited to just learn that because I think that I feel like I've been searching for a definition of forgiveness that really resonates with me, because it's like-- I don't want to say the one thing, but it's like, a thing, which is like a concept I really love and want to have more in my life. But it's something that's like so hard to practically do.

Like, I'll see my therapist and I'm like, "I don't know-- it's like, how do you forgive if you want to and you say you do when you try to, but you don't actually feel it?" And so, I loved reading his definition about it and I feel like that's something I'm going to integrate and something I wish I had thought about earlier. So, awesome, awesome.

Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode312. Those show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. And I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I am all good.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been amazing and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

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Apr 02

Episode 311: Trauma, Cancer Prevention, Obesity, Calorie Restriction, Fasting Mimicking Diet, Digestive Rest, Kid’s Nutrition, Special Teachers, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Intermittent fasting in the prevention and treatment of cancer

Welcome to Episode 311 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 3lb Bone In Chicken Thighs For One Year PLUS $20 Off Your First Box!!

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

21:50 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

23:50 - Listener Q&A: Niki - IF and cancer prevention

Episode 57: Dr. Valter Longo!: The Fasting Mimicking Diet, Eating For Longevity, High Vs. Low Protein Diets, Ancestry Diets, Meat Vs. Plant Diets, Rebuilding The Gut, Food Tolerances, Mindset And The Immune System, The Blue Zones, And More!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #115 - Valter Longo, Ph.D.

Prolonged Nightly Fasting and Breast Cancer Prognosis

46:05 - AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8: Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

48:45 - Listener Q&A: Holli - IF question and comment

56:10 - Listener Q&A: Danielle - Do you have a particular teacher that influenced or inspired you?

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 311 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like the Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 311 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: Good, how about you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Good. I have been dealing with a potential dog issue over the last four or five days, which I'm so happy to report with tremendous gratitude that my dog's biopsy came back benign. So, big exhale. Thankfully, the vet did not make me wait all day to get the results. I knew they had them yesterday, but the other vet was not willing to discuss them with me, noting it was a complicated, "Report."

Melanie Avalon: That's scary.

Cynthia Thurlow: Exactly. I was like, there's a lot of ways you could have described the report and saying complicated doesn't make me feel reassured. So, she called me first thing this morning. I started my day, literally was outside walking my dogs and got her phone call. It was reassuring to have that information. It doesn't mean that he's not going to develop a problem later, but at least for right now, it does not appear to be cancerous. So, that's very reassuring, because he's 10 years young, he's still young enough as a dog that it is not enough time to have to contemplate end-of-life decisions and things that anyone that has a relationship with an animal that they love, all the way from people that love reptiles, all the way to furry things. My dog is a big contributor to my happiness level in my life. Knowing that there was a potential for a problem weighed very heavily on me for the last four or five days. So, grateful that today I can look optimistically towards the future.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm so sorry you went through that. Is he feeling, okay? I know he was sick.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, he's feeling fine. I think after the 24 hours after he had metabolized all the anesthesia, he was back to his kind of spunky, grumpy self. Like, he's not grumpy with me. He's pretty much grumpy with anyone that bothers him. His little personality idiosyncrasies we've all acclimated to. But he has a lot of anxiety, which is normal when older dogs go to the vet. Even with trazodone, before going to the vet for what we thought initially was an ultrasound that turned into a biopsy, the trazodone didn't take the edge off much and they gave him a pretty good dose of trazodone.

And so, when the vet and I were speaking this morning, she said, is it any wonder that his adrenal glands appear to be stressed? I think it's evident that he doesn't enjoy coming to the vet even though the vet is wonderful and this is common with older dogs. I think some of it is-- they get a decline in cognitive functioning, so they may not be able to kind of buffer the stress of being in a place where they think-- much like little kids, they think they're going to get hurt or they're going to be separated from their owner.

So, yeah, there was a lot of praying and a lot of crying, a lot of just being hopeful, as my husband, who's the most optimistic human being in the world, kept saying, was, we don't have anything that we need to be stressed about yet. I was like, "Speak for yourself." [laughs] So, yeah, he had part of his belly shaved and trying to keep him away from licking, which I'm sure as the fur grows back, it's probably a little bit itchy, but we've got a solid plan and he's going to-- so what can happen with adult humans as they get older and also happens in animals, is they can get the sundowning.

I noticed that he gets anxious at night, which is new, and the vet and I were talking about it, and so we're going to use a drug called gabapentin as needed. Not something he has to take every day, but to help him because I'm noticing that's a new symptom and something I used to see in a lot of my patients. Certainly not something I'm not familiar with, but yeah, it's hard to watch our pets get older. It really is.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Yeah, no, I'm sorry that-- oh, man. I don't personally have any pets, but my parents do, and I did growing up, of course. So, I almost don't want a pet for the reason of not wanting to lose the pet in the end.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's the hardest thing. I mean that's what I was behooving to the vet about on Thursday, was this is the hardest part of being a pet owner. Unlike humans where euthanasia is pretty much frowned upon, you do have the opportunity to ensure that your pet doesn't suffer. For me, I was like, "I don't want him to have his spleen removed." I mean, come on, he's almost 11 years old and he'd have to be in the doggy ICU for a couple of days. I was like, that's not a direction I want to go in because that wouldn't be fair to him. Ultimately, had it been malignant, his potentiality for living another six months was not particularly high. I'm just grateful that whatever amount of time we still have with him we're going to enjoy and savor and just be grateful that we didn't have to make a tough decision.

Melanie Avalon: And what type of dog?

Cynthia Thurlow: This is my labradoodle, so people on social media know that I refer to him affectionately as my lovey. [laughs] So, he's the smartest, most intuitive pet I've ever owned. And we have another doodle and Baxter's like comedic relief. He's just a much less serious dog. Cooper is a very serious dog. He's kind of like an old soul. Jokingly, we've always said he doesn't think he's a dog, which is part of his problem, which is why he doesn't like to play with other dogs, he tolerates Baxter, but, yeah, he's my lovey, he's my buddy.

Melanie Avalon: Well, sending lots of love and healing and hopefully it gets better.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's the one thing about pets, they really make you value time because time with them is fleeting. You just have to savor the good times and pray you get as much quality of life for them for as long as possible.

Melanie Avalon: The stress piece surrounding it reminds me I just finished-- Thank you so much for this introduction, by the way, Gabor Maté's book. I have that interview now next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, he's amazing.

Melanie Avalon: I just remember he did talk about pets in like one small part of the book. How was that interview that you had with him?

Cynthia Thurlow: Incredible. I think that you have to do the work to be able to get and facilitate a great conversation with someone like that because I read the book and normally, I read pretty fast and I retain quite a bit. But I had to read it and kind of put it aside because it made me think a lot about my parents and the things they grew up in that impacted the way they parented me and the way they've interacted in the world. One of the things I said to him was, your book allows me to view them even more compassionately than I already had been. And it also makes me understand that most of us really don't understand what trauma represents.

And so, for me, it was very transformational. For anyone that's listened to that podcast interview, it's the most personal one I've ever done. And he was doing a little bit of therapeutic intervention and interaction with me. I think that the way that we grow as human beings is to challenge ourselves, and that was a challenging interview for me because the only way to do the interview properly was to be transparent about my own experiences, my own journey, my own work that I'm constantly doing.

I jokingly tell my husband I think I'll be doing therapy till the day I die because I think there's always something more we can improve upon or a better way to understand other people or our own behavior. I think his work has really been instrumental and what I appreciate about him, in particular, is he's so gracious. Obviously, he's got this New York Times bestselling book and he's still doing press. He doesn't have to, but he's still doing a lot of press, which tells me that he just wants to help people. I think that's just incredible and it's a sign of the kind of person that he is and the level of impact that his work is making. I'm sure you're really excited to interview him next week.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited and I was thinking about this. I think we're both going to benefit from the conversation that you've already had and the conversation I'm going to have so much. It's kind of, I think, opposite sides of the spectrum. Because the thing I really want to ask him about, he has a whole section on people who perceive having really happy memories, like not recalling any childhood trauma, which is me for sure, because he has a whole section on this, like people who have a happy childhood, and he basically says that there was still trauma. So, I'm really excited to talk to him about that, especially because I feel like I passed the question because he said he had a question that he asks everybody who says that and then that kind of weeds through.

But the question is, I don't know if you remember this, when you were young and you felt scared or afraid or angry or whatever emotion, did you have a parent that you could talk to or who did you talk to about it? And he says most people who have things that manifest as trauma today, which is like chronic health issues or mental health issues, don't pass that test. I'm really excited to have that whole conversation because I feel like I did talk to my mom [laughs] about stuff. But he even says that a high achiever mentality is like trauma driven and so literally everything is trauma according to him. So, I'm excited to have this conversation.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and it's interesting because his concept of trauma is that it's a wound. It offers up this kind of more simplified, simplistic way of looking at trauma. I was actually talking about this with a group that I teach this morning, talking about adverse childhood events and how that leads to autoimmunity and weight loss resistance and all this interesting research that's come out. And I encouraged some of these women, I was like, if you've grown up with abuse, neglect, etc. Do the work in terms of helping yourself heal so that you don't potentiate that. I always say that my children, I didn't get the parents that I needed or I wanted, I should say. I got the parents that I needed to help break multi-generational trauma that had gone on. In many ways, I'm so grateful that I didn't have the types of parents that I wanted because it made me create for my own children a very healthy relationship because I've done so much work and my husband's been so supportive of the whole healing journey.

But I'm sure that people come to him with differing backgrounds and perspectives and I'm sure it will yield a really enlightening and helpful discussion for the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast listeners because there's always something more to learn. It's not like we learn it all and then we don't continue to evolve and shift and change our perspectives as we get older. I think there's always a nugget to learn from. So, I look forward to listening to it.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited. Just two quick thoughts. One is, I think similar to you, my mom had a lot of trauma and then I know she always tried to make it her goal to not have the things happen that she had growing up with us. That sounds similar to your approach with your kids. There's so much. So, I literally just finished it. Now I have to go through all the notes and clean it up and synthesize my thoughts. But there're so many things I want to ask him. It's a long book.

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, it's a book that took me a couple of weeks to get through because I could only absorb so much at a time because it challenged me. It challenged me just on a personal and a professional level because I think most of our listeners know I trained in Baltimore and trauma of my patients experienced that we didn't realize how substantial and significant that was on their development and explains a lot of behavior. Like, I have a very bright 15-year-old and he was talking about choices that people make.

I just looked at him and I said, "I hate to say this to you because I don't want to say this to you, but I'm going to. You realize you've grown up incredibly privileged and that you have two parents that are happily married, that have been very focused on making sure that you are nurtured and you have experiences and there's no abuse in this home and there's no drug addiction and just like very simple things." And he had never considered that. I think kids, in many ways, when they grow up in healthy environments, they just take for granted that's everyone's norm.

I just, like, pointing out to them, I was like, "This is not a criticism, but your perspective has been created based on your own experience, which is fine, but with the understanding that kids you go to school with and kids that you'll go to college with and people you'll meet throughout your lifetime have had real struggles to get where they are and just how incredibly fortunate you are. I hope that you understand that and maybe you don't at 15, but I hope you do when you're a young adult because it's very different." He always says, "It's so different than the way you grew up. I know." I said, "I only share that with you so that you understand that your reality is not everyone's reality."

And then he kind of processed that and came back to me later and was like, "I want to learn more about this." I said, "Okay, it's probably time to be doing more volunteer work and more than what we've been doing. I think the pandemic has kind of put a dent in and being able to be as free to volunteer like we had been pre-pandemic." But that's a whole separate tangential conversation.

Melanie Avalon: I like that perspective about other people's traumas. I think for me, what it's really going to help as well is understanding why certain people act the way they act, having a more informed perspective of people's reactionary actions and triggers and things like that being trauma related. I also like, though, to that point, I like that he talks about how people also compare their traumas and how that basically you can still have trauma even if it's not as, "Bad" as other people's trauma. There's just so much I'm very, very excited about it. He just interviewed Prince Harry.

Cynthia Thurlow: I saw that. I was very conflicted.

Melanie Avalon: I didn’t watch, I haven't watched it yet.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, there was a side of me that was curious and then, I don't know, I have a lot of objective reasonable friends that have read his book and I was kind of like "Well, I feel conflicted about all of that." As much as I would love to see Gabor interview him, I just opted not to.

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Okay, shall we jump into everything for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. This is a question from Nikki. Subject is intermittent fasting and cancer prevention. Hi, Melanie and Cynthia, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about recommendations for intermittent fasting with respect to cancer prevention. I have a family history of breast cancer and as I am now in my 40s, I'm more serious about making sure I've done everything I can to lower my risk. Melanie, I did listen to your interview with Dr. Jason Fung on the subject and read his book, but I don't remember him giving any actual time or protocol recommendations.

These days I don't fast as intensely as I used to. It ranges anywhere from 13 to 16 hours as I find it difficult to get all my protein in with a shorter feeding window. I would be interested to know if more fasting would be recommended from this perspective. If, for example, your general risk of cancer could be significantly lowered if you fasted 24 hours at least once a week or even once a month, I'd be motivated to add that in.

I do know that Dr. Satchin Panda recommended fasting for at least 13 hours to lower your risk of breast cancer. That's why this is currently my minimum number. But I'd love to know your thoughts as to whether more is better and to what extent. Thanks so much for all you do. Best, Nikki.

Melanie Avalon: All right, Nikki. So, thank you so much for your question. I know Cynthia and I both have a lot of information on this. I did a deep, deep dive into fasting and cancer and I'll just spiel out what I found. I do remember reading, obviously, I remember, but I read Dr. Jason Fung's The Cancer Code and did have him on the show and I was surprised reading his book. He did not talk about fasting very much in that book at all. Did you read that book?

Cynthia Thurlow: I did.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I remember thinking that was interesting. But In any case, so I found a really nice review from 2021. It's published in the Journal CA, which is A Cancer Journal for Clinicians, and the title is Intermittent Fasting in the Prevention and Treatment of Cancer. And so, I'm just going to go through some of the findings. I know Nikki's question is specifically about cancer prevention, but I just wanted to provide sort of an overview of what the literature does show about fasting and cancer to date or at least until that review. So, basically, well, just cancer stats.

Cancer is the second leading cause of mortality and morbidity in the US. So, it accounted for an estimated 608,570 deaths in 2021 alone. It's estimated at least at that time that 42% of cancers are largely informed by modifiable lifestyle risk factors. Basically, your lifestyle is perpetuating, encouraging, and potentially could be a treatment for cancer. And so, overweight and obesity specifically relate to at least 13 different types of cancers, and the reason that's important, obviously, is that fasting often results in treatment for obesity and being overweight. So, there could be something going on there.

Interestingly, there's something called the obesity paradox in cancer research, which is that in some forms of cancer, it seems like obesity is protective against cancer. But the study authors were hypothesizing that a lot of that might be due to methodology issues or just looking at the data sort of incorrectly. There are a few cases where there're specific reasons that obesity might be protective in one type of cancer. It specifically creates a type of protective immune cell in the fat, but that seemed to be far and few between and it's more likely methodology stuff.

On the flipside, a lot of factors of being overweight and obese are related to cancer pathways. That's things like inflammation, high insulin, which when you have high insulin that can protect cancer, like a dampening of things that you would find in calorie restriction, which calorie restriction is actually-- and I think it's pretty interesting, it is found to be the most robust intervention to date for cancer prevention in rats, monkeys, and humans.

And so that's for a lot of reasons and a lot of these overlap with fasting. That is things like decreased production of growth factors, inflammatory cytokines, anabolic hormones, as well as reduced oxidative stress and DNA damage. There are a lot of studies on calorie restriction as well as fasting in rodents for cancer prevention, not as many in adults, but I think we can learn a lot about the mechanisms at play with calorie restriction and fasting in rodents and what might be going on there. So, some of those things are autophagy, which is something that we talk a lot about on the show, interestingly. There are some studies where these are rodent trials, but they're fasting trials and the rodents don't lose weight, but it seems to be protective against cancer and it might be due to autophagy, which is kind of cool.

There's also something called the differential stress response which is basically that in a stress state normal healthy cells grow stronger typically, it activates protective mechanisms compared to cancerous cells which typically do not do well in a stress state. So, something like fasting or calorie restriction might protect healthy cells while discouraging cancer cells or even causing apoptosis or the killing of cancer cells. There's also the role of glycolysis. Cancer cells often run on sugar and cannot run on fat or ketones, so fasting can have an effect there possibly.

When it comes to actual human studies. There aren't a lot of studies on fasting for treating cancer or long-term studies on fasting and cancer, but there are a myriad of smaller studies finding mechanisms that might be protective against cancer. On top of that, there are quite a few studies actually looking at the effects of fasting paired with chemotherapy and finding that it might make chemotherapy more effective, specifically by reducing DNA damage. And also a lot of studies have found that can make the negative side effects of chemotherapy not as bad, less toxic, more tolerable. At the end of the study, they did make recommendations, which is kind of directly answering Nikki's question. This was something I thought was interesting. They actually put the recommendations after the conclusion. It's literally like the very last thing in the study.

But basically, they were saying that when it comes to being overweight and obese-- so if you're overweight or obese and you're seeking weight loss as a means of primary cancer prevention, that IF is maybe an option for that. Oh, because they do talk all throughout the paper about safety or not. And before that, sorry, I'm kind of jumping around, there are some conflicting studies, especially in rodents with cancer prevention. Like some finding it therapeutic or helpful and then others finding that not to be the case, and then interesting studies with rodents as well and refeeding in that some find benefits with cancer prevention and treatment and some actually find that it might make cancer worse.

A huge major caveat and I'm really glad that this article talked about it and it's something that I think is not talked about enough, which is the massive difference between rodents and humans in fasting specifically in that they just are not the same thing, like 24-hour fast in a rodent-- So, a 24-hour fast in a rodent, which is often what is studied and is proposed as, "Intermittent fasting," that's really not intermittent fasting for a rodent.

So, 24-hour fast in a rodent is likely equal to a five-day fast feed cycle in humans that's because a rat will actually die of starvation after 48 to 60 hours, like, it will die, compared to a human that can go 57 to 73 days of fasting before dying. So, there is a major difference there. The majority, if not maybe all of the studies on rodents and fasting are the equivalent of basically long-extended fasting in humans. That's something to really keep in mind.

And then also something else to keep in mind is that, this is interesting. They talk about how, like in rodent studies, the feeding and the food is often much more controlled than it is in human studies. And that oftentimes with fasting in human studies, humans will just eat their normal meals or there're just more factors involved. It's not usually like lab chow where it's specifically controlled. That's something also to keep in mind. I know I'm skipping all around, but I'm remembering things that I left out. They also talked throughout the article about the fasting-mimicking diet, which is the work of Valter Longo. Kind of going back to what I was just saying about the longer fast research in rodents.

A potential benefit of the fasting-mimicking diet, which is basically where you have this super low calorie, plant-based, low protein, low carb approach for usually, I think, five days in humans, is that it kind of can potentially activate these mechanisms of fasting, but for longer. So, for five days. It might be more similar to what you're getting mechanism-wise with the rodent studies. And a nice thing about the fasting-mimicking diet is it's more controlled and there is quite a bit of research on it with the work of Valter Longo. Going back to-- Oh, which, by the way, we've had Valter Longo on this show. I think we've had him on twice. We've had him on I think once and then I've had him on my show. Have you had him on your show, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, would you like to interview him? I'm just curious.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm curious. But I think I'm not a huge proponent of really long fasting for a variety of reasons, taking my own personal feelings about it out. Obviously, he is one of the big longevity researchers and someone that talks quite a bit about fasting. So, yeah, I think he would definitely be on my wish list for the future for sure.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I wonder if he has any new books or anything coming out. I'm just thinking how I might reach out to him and just have him on randomly. But I'm happy to connect you to him if you like. He was really hard to, like, lockdown. I thought he would be-- I know he's been around for a while, but I tried before he had his book a while ago when he wasn't quite as popular, and even then, I couldn't, it was hard. I don't even know how I ended up getting him. I think his book was coming out and his publicist reached out.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's usually when you can get him. It's funny, I just booked Glucose Goddess, who I've been persistently after for six months. She has a new book coming out, which is why she probably has been putting me off and then Dr. Amen. I've been wanting to have both of them on for a while, so I'm excited about the opportunity to connect with them. And you've had Dr. Amen on.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I actually went to his Amen Clinics here in Atlanta.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, cool. One of my girlfriends works at his DC clinic.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice. Yeah, they were super nice to let me do a-- I think it was like half of a scan though, [laughs] because you're supposed to go in twice and I went in once and I think they test one thing one time and one thing the other. Yeah, that was a nice experience. It was really cool because he actually looked at my scan in real time during the interview. So, I was like, "I'm getting my scan reviewed by Dr. Amen himself," which was very cool. That'll be awesome. I love him.

So, okay. Coming to Valter Longo, what are we talking about? Yeah, so Valter Longo obviously has the fasting-mimicking diet to go back to the conclusion of the study and Nikki's question. I felt like it was a very cautious interpretation of the literature, which I understand. Basically, they say that if you're overweight or obese and you're seeking weight loss and you're looking for cancer prevention, then IF may be an option. Interestingly, they don't talk about weight loss if you're normal weight, losing weight and if you should use fasting for cancer prevention. I think that's mostly just coming from, like I said a sense of caution, like not wanting to make medical prescriptions.

They do say, though, that if you are doing IF and not losing weight and/or changing your diet and physical activity that there's not really data indicating that fasting would be protective. But stepping back from that, it's just interesting because they talk all throughout it about all of these mechanisms that are likely activated by fasting that might be protective. I would make the conclusion that if you're doing fasting even if you're not losing weight, that this is just my interpretation, I would see how it could be protective.

And then they do talk about people who actually have cancer and if they should use fasting in that and they basically say that, yes, there are a few trials with people who are getting chemotherapy and those find typically that's safe, feasible and can potentially decrease the toxic effects and tumor growth, but that the data is minimal. And if you are doing fasting while having cancer, they basically just say they would only do it if you're in a clinical trial and that a lot more research is needed.

Stepping back from all of that after reading it, I just walked away thinking that there are clearly a lot of mechanisms that fasting activates that are seemingly protective against cancer. I would feel comfortable saying that just living an intermittent fasting lifestyle is likely protective against cancer as far as how much, I'm trying to remember-- I know Nikki was saying like a 24-hour fast. She was wondering about a 24-hour fast once a week or once a month, and she does at least 13 hours. So, again, it's really hard to know at what point and I feel this also will probably be individual for different people, but at what point in the fast are you activating these different mechanisms? So, more autophagy, insulin going down, IGF-1 going down, metabolic hormones like estrogen and testosterone effects on those. It's hard to know when those are happening at the fast at what time. But I do think implementing intermittent fasting into your lifestyle is likely protective against cancer.

I am intrigued by the fasting-mimicking diet. I personally can't, I've tried it and it made me starving. But I can see how doing that for five days could potentially be pretty therapeutic or like a longer fast, which is also something I haven't done. I think the longest fast I've done has been like 50 hours and I did not enjoy it at all. Yeah, I'm trying to remember, just a last note, there was a book I was reading recently and I might have already said it on this podcast, but they were quoting somebody. I don't want to say the name because I don't want to say who it was, but it was somebody very respected and that person was saying they thought you could reduce your risk of all cancers significantly if you did, I think he said like a four to five-day fast once a year or something. Yeah, so that was a lot. Cynthia, I know you have thoughts as well. What are your thoughts?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do and that was a very extensive response. I have a team member who's a breast cancer thriver and is very open about this. So, I'm not disclosing anything that she hasn't shared publicly. I stumbled upon some research probably a few years ago there's a JAMA oncology article from 2016 talking about objectively looking at women with early stage breast cancer. There were over 2400 women with breast cancer but without diabetes, ages 27 to 70 they were put into a prospective women's healthy eating and living study that ran from 1995 to 2007. It was really just focused on nightly fasting duration. What really came out of this is that prolonging the length of the nightly fasting interval, maybe a simple nonpharmacologic strategy for reducing the risk of breast cancer reoccurrence, as well as improvements in glucoregulation specific to A1c is what they were looking at here and CRP, so C-reactive protein.

It's interesting they speak in here extensively about this model and what it came down to in terms of hours of sleep and ended up being kind of aligned with what Satchin Panda had talked about. Less than 13 hours a night of sleep, which is not a lot, was associated with a 36% higher hazard for breast cancer reoccurrence. From my perspective and I talk very openly about this now, the minimum standard for every single listening grown adult should be 12 to 13 hours of fasting. And that's not even fasting. It's like digestive rest, it's pretty benign.

But understanding that this was a large study that was looking at all-cause mortality and it's interesting that they're not talking about these prolonged periods of fasting and I do see the utility in doing that. I think my concern always falls into the bucket of, if you're lean already, are you losing muscle? And then you really have to think about the net impact on loss of muscle and whether or not that's the upregulation of autophagy is really of benefit.

But we'll link this study up and this is again, less than 13 hours is associated with a statistically significant 36% increased risk of-- It's interesting that it was just 13 hours of fasting. It wasn't this prolonged fast. I think this is highly bio-individual. I think there's ongoing research, but this was just one of many, many resources that I kind of stumbled upon. The individuals on my team, as an example, who are either perimenopausal or menopausal females that are cancer survivors. Just helping them understand that interrelationship of not only insulin sensitivity but also the role of therapeutic fasting or even periods of digestive rest have a lot of net benefits.

Melanie Avalon: Just to comment quickly on that women's study, the review talked about that study as well and what was interesting-- what it said about it talked about that study and then it compared it to another study that also looked at a large cohort of women. I'd have to read the section again, but basically, they said by comparing the results of the two studies and weight loss or not and the effects, the two studies so the one that Cynthia spoke about and then another one because of the weight loss and the adjustments for that and what happened and what didn't happen. It led to the hypothesis that a negative energy balance is a necessary factor for improving breast cancer outcomes. Because I know one of the studies that they looked at, they weren't necessarily making it calorie restricted, but I think it ended up being that.

Yeah, by comparing the two, but basically that the negative energy balance might be an important key there. And one of the things about fasting nicely is that it can often create unintentional calorie restriction without people even meaning to. So, that was something to point out. I'm also glad that you pointed out. I do find that really interesting about the 13 hours, especially because Nikki mentioned Dr. Panda talking about 13 hours and then that is often what is prescribed and you said this basically, but I do wonder how many of the benefits do actually-- it surprises me basically that we are seeing the effects with that short of a fast.

Cynthia Thurlow: I guess what I find encouraging is for the people who are out there who are not fasting on a regular basis, it's almost like a gateway, meaning it's low enough in terms of hours spent not eating that I think most people could do that and do it fairly easily. I presented at Low Carb Denver now almost a week and a half ago and one of the things-- usually I'm talking about fasting, but in the case of this event, I was talking about insulin-sensitive obesity and I was saying like, in terms of interventions that you can do with patients, 12 hours of digestive rest can still confer benefits.

Unfortunately, I think it's probably our competitive nature here in the United States, but people kind of think more is better, more always has to be better. I just remind people, let's just keep it simple, we want things to be sustainable. I think for a lot of people, it's just in their nature, they want to go to extremes like, "Oh, I have to do 24 hours fast to get benefits." Well, there're different types of fasting, but I think for the general population if you just do 12 or 13 hours fasting, we know that there are a lot of health benefits conferred with that. I think just meeting people where they are, like if you're going from a standard American diet and being a couch potato to fasting that's going to be scary, like really scary to change from eating every hour or two to going and eating twice a day, that's a big adjustment.

Melanie Avalon: It surprises me, but it's super amazing that it makes it more approachable for people. Yeah, I'm just thinking about how, like, growing up I used to do intermittent fasting. I've talked about this on the show before, but one day a week on Wednesdays because we would go to the buffet at the country club and so I would not eat all day, so that I could just pig out and two things and one, I thought I was doing something really terrible by not eating, even though natural-- Granted I was in high school, it was still so hard. [laughs] And now to think that I do one meal a day-type approach every single day is just kind of funny to think about. There is something about having that approachable, like something that people feel like they can actually do and getting used to it. It's great to know that there are the benefits there potentially.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

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Now we have a question from Holly. The subject is IF question and comment and Holly says, Hello there. "I saw this book as a recommendation in my fasting group and I've been listening to it at work, and I realize--" I don't know which book she's talking about, but I don't know if it's yours or Gin's, probably not mine. She says, "I learned a lot for someone who has studied food, but in different ways I suppose. I had a couple of questions and comments about a couple of things that stuck out to me. Have you ever read the book? French Kids Eat Everything. I learned some interesting information about different cultural approaches to eating and it was fascinating to me because I'm a cultural geographer and an artisan cheesemaker." That's cool. She says, "Anyways, my question is pertaining to children and being ingrained to eating breakfast. At what age do we let them casually feel ready to eat for the day? or as teenagers, the kids are little, we eat pretty clean as everything is made at home. But what happens when they have to start school and we want to make sure they are nourished until their untimely short lunch period? On another note, I wanted to comment about working out and fasting. I began practicing yoga with my mom when I was about 15 years old. We were watching VHS tapes and before every practice began, there was a warning that you should be in a minimum of a four-hour fasted state before practicing. So, I guess what I'm saying is, yoga taught me to always work out in a fasted state. That's all. I just wanted to share that with you." Best, Holly. I like hearing that about yoga.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Holly, I have actually not read that book French Kids Eat Everything, but I am familiar with the premise. I have teenagers and what we have to do is instill good habits in our children. By the time, they were late elementary school age, middle school age, they were making their own lunches, they could make their own breakfast, they could put together an impromptu meal during the day if they were home on a weekend. I think that you have to instill good habits. I certainly didn't find that my kids were tempted by the junk that was served in the school cafeteria. Although once a week we would let them get ice cream because everyone got ice cream on a specific day of the week and I just kind of let that go.

But I think by the time they're teenagers, they kind of autoregulate and especially with the pandemic, my teenagers they had to, they had to be able to make their own lunch because with four of us being home, we're all breaking at different times, and being online for an entire year of school was a gigantic joke. And so, my kids would sometimes check out when they were in the middle of class. They would come downstairs and make food. So, my kids know how to make healthy meals, and you have to pick your battles. I pretty much determine what are my non-negotiables and then we work around that.

I'm adamant about no high fructose corn syrup and no seed oils. Both my kids actually eat really healthy. They eat a lot of protein. They're both student athletes. They eat a lot of healthy carbohydrates. I have one kid who's been tracking his macros because he's trying to build muscle and it's actually been impressive to kind of watch him be very diligent about meal timing and how much carbohydrate he's eating, and how much protein he's eating. From that perspective, I wouldn't worry too much. All those good habits that you're instilling in your children now. I found that it was less about school being a minefield and more about birthday parties and things like that, where my kids would come home and just they'd be sick from eating conventional pizza and whatever the other fun foods they were eating at these parties.

Now, in terms of yoga and what I know about yoga as a practice, it is not at all surprising that you're going to do best, especially if you're doing inversions, depending on what type of yoga you're doing. Not at all surprised that they would encourage you to be in a fasted state or at least several hours in between meals so that your body's not focused on digestion and you can actually move with some ease. So, definitely not surprised that yoga has reinforced that behavior. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I knew you would have a great answer for that, having kids. No, I agree with everything you said. I was thinking back to-- I think I told you I interviewed Marion Nestle. Did I tell you that?

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it was talk about an inspiring interview. So excited about it. Jon Levy connected us and she does a lot with food policy or-- She does a lot writing about food policy and the role of government and in our processed food industry and the dietetics associations and the food pyramids and all the things. She's like, a legend. Time magazine had her on the list of something about people involved-- making the biggest advances in health and medicine, which is crazy. I think she's the oldest guest I've interviewed. How old is Gabor Maté?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think he's in his 70s. But like his voice, he sounds much younger.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, he does sound younger. And she sounded younger. She's 86.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, he's definitely younger than that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. She was born in 1936. Yeah. It was so cool hearing about her growing up in college and being a mom and a working woman and trying to navigate the system and everything she dealt with as a woman back then. It's crazy. But in any case, so she has a whole section in her book and she has 15 books, so she has a lot of information, but a lot about the role of cafeteria food and the role of industry and marketing to kids. I don't want to say coercing schools. I think it's quite an issue today.

Just stepping back, I know this is a little bit of a tangent, but it's so interesting because it's so blatantly obvious. And Gabor Maté talks about this. Like, when things are just normalized as normal, we don't notice how off they are or how wrong they are. Something like these big mega companies that put so much money into health research, and it's not because they care about your health, it's because they want to divert attention away from the problem.

So, like, Coca-Cola or Nestle have these huge focuses on supporting health, but it's usually like focusing on the benefits of exercise. It's all to not make you think about the problems of eating the chocolate and drinking the Coca-Cola. I could go on a tangent about this. To me, that just seems so blatantly obvious, but nobody's really thinking about it. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. And when my kids were younger, I was one of the co-directors for Real Food for Kids.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, what is that?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's an organization that is trying to improve the quality of food, nutrition that's offered to kids in schools. We, at that time, lived in Northern Virginia and had a lot of access to local farms. We had locally sourced grass-fed meat and organic vegetables that the kids were able to incorporate into their lunches. So, yeah, there's a lot that's wrong about the school food that is served to our children definitely.

Melanie Avalon: That's super cool. I feel like that was all over the place, but feel like we answered her question pretty well.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: Do you want to do one last quick fun question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: Here's just a fun non-fasting-related question to end on from Danielle. This is from our AMAs back in the day. She wants to know, do you have a particular teacher, speaking of schools, that influenced or inspired you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm. Well, I had a high school AP English teacher who I have jokingly/not jokingly admitted to, was the only teacher that really prepared me for college, the rigor, Dr. Barbara Godbold. She was very serious. She was probably 6.2". She was very imposing and she made us work our butts off for her class. Just the pace of the class is really what I believe set me up for what college pace was going to be like. She was super strict. Like, this is back when she wouldn't allow us to wear shorts in our class unless they came to our knees and back in the 80s no one was wearing shorts that long.

So, we would pull our shorts down past our butt and wear these oversized T-shirts so that we could stay in class and not get kicked out. She was intense, but I think many years later, I actually wrote her a letter and thanked her. But at the time, she was formidable, like, 6'2" tall, imposing. She was really, really smart and really taught me a lot. But at the time, I remember thinking she was an impediment to my social life. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: So, two immediately come to mind. One was also, I skipped my last year of high school, but if I had stayed he was the AP English teacher, but before that, he was-- so when I was, like, a sophomore. Actually, wait, you know what? That's not true. I think he was the sophomore and Junior Honors English teacher and then there was a different AP English teacher, coach Carruth, Patrick Carruth. He changed my life. He was so amazing, and he was one of the ones where like we were terrified, like, the first few weeks of him, like, terrified because he was so intimidating and so intelligent, and he would just ask us these questions. It was very Greek, like Socrates and Plato sitting around asking questions. He would ask us these metaphysical questions and we would just stare at him and be scared.

But by the end, halfway through the year and then throughout the next year, he became the most amazing thing. He actually left and went to become headmaster of another school, moved states. We had a going away party for him that we did Great Gatsby themed at my house. So, yeah, he had a huge impact on my life. In college at USC, actually, the top pay professor at USC is Drew Casper. He's in film school, and he is a legend, and he also is terrifying. Like, he's terrifying and he's crazy. He screams and yells and is very passionate and energetic, and he teaches a lot of film courses at the film school. You can invite him to lunch if you want and have lunch with him and do kind of, like, office hours, but at lunch. I did that as a freshman because I was like, I'm going to do this. He was just so funny and so wonderful and I need to reach out to him now.

I would always bring like-- in college, I was kind of crazy. I was very girly and I would wear all pink and I would bring my stuffed animal of Thumper to class, and he would always get Thumper from me and teach with Thumper on his podium. He would have Christmas parties at his house every year and he would invite me to his Christmas parties, [laughs] the most amazing thing. I'm going to reach out to him. I should see if he would want to do an interview on my show, which would not be biohacking related at all, but I'm going to do that right after this.

Cynthia Thurlow: Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: It's really nice how people can change your lives. That's actually because we had an AMA question also about something that you wish you had done or done differently or learned in life. One of the things I do wish I had done more was in college, I wish I had gone to more office hours, like with the different professors just in general or taken other classes, but I guess there wasn't really time. But I feel like in college there's just so much opportunity for so much free stuff if you take advantage of it.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. I mean, it's interesting. I was part of a very small school within a university and so the dean knew us all by name, so you couldn't hide. There was no hiding. And the professors were pretty intense. And more often than not, the School of Nursing had the same professors as the School of Medicine, so it's just intense. I remember thinking-- I would just go home and want to just unplug my brain [laughs] just between clinicals and everything else. But I agree with you, I think most of us probably lack the maturity in our late teens early 20s to take full advantage of all the opportunities to learn. Yeah. So, like I said, if I could go back, I would do more, but it's like, I don't know that I really could have.

Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. If listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com and they can submit questions there. These show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode311. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. I think that is all the things. So, anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, just keep the great questions coming.

Melanie Avalon: Indeed. I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

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LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

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Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Mar 26

Episode 310: Inositol, Improved Sleep, Cell Metabolism, DNA Repair, Brain Health, Electrolyte Balance, Glucose Control, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Welcome to Episode 310 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

3:45 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
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8:10 - what is inositol?

11:25 - sugar alcohol

13:05 - does it break a fast?

18:05 - NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
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20:50 - the importance of sleep

23:00 - DNA repair and cell metabolism; Nerve Health

29:20 - choline

31:45 - Brain health, Dopamine, Serotonin

35:00 - insulin resistance in the brain

38:30 - exogenous sources of inositol

40:45 - magnesium and electrolyte balance

44:35 - AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8: Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

47:15 - why this supplement? why now?

52:40 - L-Theonine and anxiety

53:20 - Metabolic Health

55:00 - MD Logic

Get 25% off during the Presale 03/11-03-19 or 15% off between 03/20-03/31 at cynthiathurlow.com/insolitol!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 310 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it’s that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how to get my favorite electrolytes for free. Yes, completely free. The more I do research, the more health books I read, the more people I interview something keeps coming up again and again and that is the importance of electrolytes. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body. This includes the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. If you don't have your electrolytes in line, best case scenario, you're not going to perform at your best. Worst case scenario, you're going to feel pretty awful. When your electrolytes are out of balance, you can experience things like headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness, and many other unpleasant symptoms. How do we lose electrolytes? Well, when you sweat, the primary electrolyte lost is sodium. Athletes can lose up to 7 grams per day. Also, when people go on keto diets, that also often results in depleted electrolytes, and may be responsible for something called the, "keto flu."

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Cynthia Thurlow: Welcome back to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Today I am joined by my dear friend Scott Emmens. Scott is the CEO and founder of MD Logic Health and today we are going to discuss my latest supplement Myo-inositol. Scott, I'm really excited to have this conversation today about Inositol.

Scott Emmens: I am too, Cynthia. I have to say, this molecule, although I've known about it for quite some time. As I did the research for this, really opened my eyes up to it. So, I'm thrilled to have it. My first question for you is when you decided to make your next supplement, Inositol, what was it that made you choose Inositol? For the audience, what is Inositol?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's important to be fully transparent and share with everyone that sleep over the last eight to ten years has been elusive in many instances. And so, I'm always looking for ways to improve my quality of sleep to ensure that I am getting restful sleep. I mean, now I track my metrics on my Oura Ring. But about a year and a half ago, I was already aware of Myo-inositol, which is a specific type of Inositol, which we'll talk about in a second, and I decided to just guinea pig. I was like, "Okay, I'm going to take this before bed. I'm going to see what net impact it has on my sleep." This is the experimentation of the N of 1, the power of how important that is, and what I found is when I woke up in the morning, I didn't just feel more rested. My sleep metrics absolutely recorded deeper and longer deep sleep. For anyone that is familiarized with deep and REM sleep, they both have different purposes. One is really focused on brain health, the other one is really focused on bodily health. But as we are getting older, it sometimes can be more challenging to get high-quality deep and REM sleep. Over the course of about six months, I was able to adjust dosages, timing. I started including it in a lot of my treatment protocols, with my own patients and clients. Happily, the N of 1 became N of 20 or 30. From there I started talking more about it.

If we're talking specifically about this particular form of Inositol, Myo-inositol is a type of sugar alcohol. It's actually the most abundant Inositol in the body making up 95% of free Inositol. It's found within cell membranes. It's sometimes referred to as a vitamin although that's really a misnomer, vitamin B8. It's not a true vitamin because our bodies can actually make Myo-inositol and we can sometimes get it from foods in our diets, whether it's fruits and nuts and grains and beans. But we'll discuss later why some people may not be able to extract a lot of inositol from their foods.

We know that it acts as a signaling agent. It's not just about brain health. We know it can actually help with blood sugar, which for most of our listeners, talking about metabolic health is obviously a huge focus of my work. And then, interestingly enough, it's also a nootropic agent. It helps the brain with cell signaling. To me, the more I learned about it was not just a supplement for women with PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome, although the research is really solid in that area. But it's a supplement that I've seen really compelling clinical results from patients not just with improvement in blood sugar, but also improvement in cognition and sleep quality. That's really the basis of the supplements that we're working on together, is to make sure that they are focused in these areas, which are the areas I think most of our listeners are concerned about as well.

Scott Emmens: That alone is quite a list of things that [Cynthia laughs] this particular supplement can address. But there are more, which is interesting. To take a step back, you mentioned that it's a sugar alcohol. For our keto friends and people that are wondering, well, how does something that has sugar alcohol in it, how does that support metabolic health? Articulate or walk the audience through how that works.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, so it's not the sugar alcohol that we're thinking of that's contrived in a lab per se, that we're trying to increase the sweetness of a product and make it keto friendly. This is really speaking to the ability to move glucose into the cell so intracellularly and the stimulation of specific mechanisms in the cell, there's this GLUT4 translocation, which is a fancy way of saying "It's going to make it much more readily accepted into the cell." We know if only 7% of the population right now is metabolically flexible, this is something that most if not all of us want to be concerned about.

The other thing that's interesting is it can actually play a role in regulating the release of free fatty acids from adipose tissue. This can be impactful if we are fasting and in a fasted state, we are trying to utilize either stored sugar or stored free fatty acids as a fuel source, it's going to help facilitate that by keeping our insulin levels a bit lower. Then, interestingly enough, it can actually promote the conversion from glucose to glycogen. Glycogen is stored sugar and so we store glycogen in our skeletal muscle and our livers, hopefully not too much of it, so that we end up developing something called NAFLD or nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. But there're several different mechanisms that can help with insulin sensitivity that are of particular interest to me. For those of us that are out there that are metabolically flexible, it can be very effective to help with maintaining insulin sensitivity. For those that are actively working on improving their metabolic health can be useful as well.

Scott Emmens: A couple of things there that I just wanted to circle back on. First is when we talk about sugar and the fasting, we're going to get questions on, does this break my fast? So, I guess that's question one. Would Inositol technically break your fast given that it is actually working to pull in the sugar? What are your thoughts there?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's interesting. I think it's always in the context of what is the greatest value. From my perspective, if we are going from maybe let's say our blood sugar is within a healthy range and we take Inositol in a fasted state, I'm more concerned about making sure that you are maintaining this insulin sensitivity than I am about-- the concerns and I know it gets very granular, very nuanced. I know that I would say 50% of the questions that my team and I field on social media on a given day is related to does X break my fast? Typically, I take Inositol in the evening, usually at the tail end of my feeding window. That's when I will take it. But I have plenty of patients as an example that have PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome and if you look at the clinical research the recommendation is usually 2 grams twice a day. So, very likely they are taking their Inositol in a fasted state and in a fed state. I think it really comes down to what are your goals.

From my perspective, this is one of those gray areas. I'm completely comfortable with my patients taking this in a fasted state and not worrying about whether or not this is breaking a clean fast. This is very different than someone taking, let's just say, one of the keto sweeteners in something in a fasted state and wondering what's going on. This is actually helping to improve that insulin sensitivity. So, for me, I'm less concerned about it.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, I completely agree. I think that's the perfect response for folks to make it clear that this is an individual need. What are you taking it for specifically? What's the core reason you're taking it? And then you can determine when you're taking it. But I think the benefit of when you take it in a fasted state, given, let's use the PCOS example, might be a fasted state is a perfectly valid and more important reason to take it than worry about whether it's going to have a minor impact on your fast or not. I think it really does come down to individual choices, individual specific goals.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think for a lot of people when they're getting nuanced about does X item beverage supplement break my fast? The bigger question is, are you insulin sensitive? Are you metabolically healthy? If you are, I'm less concerned about what you are. These little tiny little choices that you're making as opposed to someone who may be new to intermittent fasting, maybe new to these kinds of products, maybe has been quite sedentary, has 25, 50 pounds to lose? Then we have to get much more deliberate. These are individuals that likely would benefit from a bit more than opposed to a little bit less. But with that being said, it's always in the context of what are your goals, what are your metabolic health threshold at this point in time and you can make adjustments.

Scott Emmens: I think the key there is if metabolic health is what you're seeking, then that is the key. If you are metabolically flexible and healthy, breaking the fast with minor things here and there are not going to make much of a difference. But what will make it much more, in my opinion you could disagree, is that your metabolic health and overall flexibility is going to be a much more important factor long term than whether you're stuck to your fast precisely or not.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and I think this is a good time to just interject that sometimes we get caught up in the little details when in essence we should be flying at 30,000 feet or we're kind of looking down on collectively, what are all the choices we're making throughout the day, throughout the week and what net impact? How is your sleep? How are you managing your stress? Are you lifting weights? Are you eating a nutrient-dense, whole-food diet, which could look a little different for everyone? Are you eating enough protein? Are you satiated? Those things to me as a rule are, they take precedence over one supplement? It's not to ignore the questions that I know will be forthcoming with regard to this. But just keeping your eye on the big picture as opposed to worrying about little bits of minutiae. Sometimes we'll get questions on social media about a particular type of tea or a particular type of coffee, and we'll say. let's look at the ingredient list, let's educate ourselves, what could be contributing to what your concern is about? but I think sometimes people get fixated on one thing and they're not looking at the big picture.

Scott Emmens: Agreed. And sleep is a great example. If you don't get sufficient sleep, you are going to have metabolic insufficiencies or perhaps your blood sugar will spike. And you'll crave sweet food and that's been proven time and time again. If you're sleep deprived, especially over a long period of time, even one day, frankly, but you go less than 6 hours of sleep, you're going to have impacts on your blood sugar that are not going to be positive. So, everything matters. All of those things combined to your point, I think, is really where the rubber meets the road in terms of your metabolic flexibility and health.

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Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think it goes without saying that when we're talking about sleep, I always like to mention sleep is foundational to our health. If you're not getting a quality sleep, everything else is secondary to that. Don't overfast or don't fast at all if you can't figure out why you're not sleeping well. There're so many women, in particular, I don't want to pick on women, but I know for myself, the first couple of years I was in perimenopause, my sleep, it was like an art form. I had to figure out the right things I needed to do to get myself to sleep through the night. But to your point, we know even one night of sleep can be detrimental to our metabolic health, can contribute to insulin resistance, will raise cortisol, will cause us to want to eat junk and not broccoli and chicken. Just understanding that if you're not sleeping well, that's the first thing to work on before you even worry about anything else get your sleep dialed in, figure out why you're not sleeping, and then fit all the other pieces into the puzzle.

Scott Emmens: One of the things I like about Inositol is not only that it helps with your deep sleep, but it helps with your entire sleep structure, meaning each phase, you'd mentioned the various phases and it helps with structuring that sleep so that you get a perfect balance. I shouldn't say perfect, but a better balance, an improved balance that was really interesting to me. I guess we could move on into mechanisms of action into the cell.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. When we're talking about how Myo-inositol and I know that's a bit of a mouthful, so maybe for listeners I'm going to just say Inositol. But the product that we are talking about is Myo-inositol.

Scott Emmens: In the supplement world, if you see Inositol, that is Myo-inositol.

Cynthia Thurlow: Generally, yes.

Scott Emmens: 99% of the time if it says just Inositol, that's going to be Myo-inositol. The other most common is D-chiro-inositol, and there's reasons that you don't necessarily want to use it, and if you do it has to be in a very precise amount and it's probably best off to start with Myo-inositol, just by itself for a lot of clinical reasons, but Inositol pretty much means Myo-inositol unless it says D-chiro and that's a totally different [unintelligible [00:22:53], which you got to be very careful with.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely, so, such a good point. When we're talking about our cells, we know that it plays a role in DNA repair. As we're getting older, we are more likely to be having issues with our mitochondria which are effectively the powerhouses of our cells. DNA repair, it's absolutely essential for that. It helps regulate cell metabolism. Again, these are kind of nerdy little caveats but really important to understand that this supplement in particular is working at the cellular level and not just kind of these extraneous topics. We know it's very important for the component of the cell membrane. Our cell membranes are important for communication between cells and so understanding that as we are getting older, as things are maybe not working as efficiently. This is why I really like the idea of using Inositol in conjunction with fasting whether you're taking this at the tail end of your feeding window or incorporating it throughout your day, understanding that at a very basic level, this can help your cells become more efficient, have more energy, be able to improve communication between cells, which, the older I get, the more I think about things on a bit more detailed level because I realize how humbling is to understand how our bodies work effectively.

Scott Emmens: Truly. I mean our bodies are a miracle if you think about it. How many different things have to go right for your body to work? It's amazing we can get up in the morning sometimes.

[laughter]

Cynthia Thurlow: True, very true. [laughs]

Scott Emmens: Component of the cell membrane and the cell membrane is typically like the fatty layer around that and mitochondria have their own cell membrane as well, correct?

Cynthia Thurlow: They do, they do. So, this phospholipid bi-layering and this is why things that we're exposed to our environment, our personal care products, our food, can all impact this in positive or negative ways. Understanding that we are contributing to components that are going to make this protective layer more effective and allow it to be optimized is certainly very exciting.

Scott Emmens: Absolutely. We know that mitochondrial health leads to so many other things too including brain health, so, excellent. Now, the number of things that Inositol, Myo-inositol we're speaking about in particular, and we'll just say Inositol to keep it easy [Cynthia laughs] but it's all when we say Inositol, we're saying Myo-inositol. The amount of things that this product has been clinically studied for in the brain and then the amount of new and upcoming research really blew me away.

I had known about Inositol for many years. I've known many people that have taken it, but when I started to get into the research, as you and I were preparing the product and preparing this podcast, I just was really blown away by the amount of influence this could have on your mood, on your cognition, on the speed of your brain, on your sleep architecture. Let's talk about the things in the brain and why do you think it works there and why that's so important, and what are the core key things that are provable that we can stand behind the clinical data on?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, we know Inositol is very effective with brain signaling. Again, as we've already talked about, it's a component of our cellular membranes. Starting with protection of the blood-brain barrier being a previous ER nurse, there are specific substances that can cross the blood-brain barrier and others that cannot. Now that we understand a whole lot more about the gut microbiome and the interrelationship between leaky gut, leaky brain, understanding that Inositol can beneficial in helping to strengthen that blood-brain barrier.

The blood-brain barrier is designed to protect us, but in many instances, due to lifestyle, personal care choices, etc., can weaken this and can allow us to absorb substances into the brain that do not belong. I also think about neuroplasticity, which is this concept where it allows us to create new neural pathways. But it's also particularly beneficial with commonly recognized neurotransmitters like dopamine, acetylcholine, GABA, and serotonin, understanding that it can strengthen and improve these specific neurotransmitter pathways as well as communication between the neurotransmitters.

I think about glutamic acid or glutamate and GABA. GABA is this inhibitory neurotransmitter, and glutamate is this excitatory neurotransmitter and making sure that we're influencing the right neurotransmitter at the right time. You don't want to be stimulated when you're trying to go to bed. You want to have this inhibitory communication with GABA in particular. I also think about assisting and regulating sodium levels. We talk a lot about electrolytes on this podcast and how important they are knowing that Inositol is involved in the regulation of sodium. There's a sodium-potassium pump in the body across these cellular membranes and this in and of itself helps with maintenance of myelin sheaths that protect our neurons. Down to regulating electrolytes, but also protecting the fatty myelin sheath that allows for proper transmission impulses in between different brain cells I found particularly interesting.

Scott Emmens: I would have to agree. I'll start there but there were a lot of things I want to unpack with that one. So, the myelin sheaths to bring it into layman's terms are like the rubber around an electric cord and that rubber around electric cords keeps other electric cords from touching each other and shorting out. I think it was ALD, which was a nerve disease. The movie Lorenzo's Oil, do you remember that movie?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do.

Scott Emmens: And his son had that disease. I might be getting the acronyms wrong or the verbiage wrong, but it was basically a disease of the myelin sheaths not being properly built. So, your myelin sheaths are so important because if they're not created well in your brain, then your neurons don't-- even if you have the neurons, but the myelin sheaths are brittle or not connected, you can have little shorts, little skips, and your cognition can decline.

That goes for all of your nerves, right? You've got to have really good myelin sheaths, which also goes back to the point on that bilipid layer that protects the cell. That's like a myelin sheath for the cell, different mechanism, but you've got to prevent those short circuits. That's really important for brain health and overall function cognition. So, I found that fascinating. The other thing, just to tap into it, as you had mentioned how it works with choline, etc. There was a study I read that choline in combination with Myo-inositol, is also beneficial.

Now, choline in itself is really good for your brain if you're not getting enough in your diet, so that's something we can talk about down the road. I do take choline every day with Myo-inositol, with my black coffee. By the way, it does sweeten my coffee just the smidge. it's not like sugar, but just a tiny little sweet taste. It's really made my black coffee more pleasurable.

[laughter]

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's funny, after I was hospitalized four years ago, I remember I got out of the hospital and I craved red meat and I craved eggs. Eggs are rich in choline and I have eggs every single day, sometimes four or five at a time. I love that you're seeing this improvement in taking choline on a daily basis. The interrelationship with Inositol makes a great deal of sense. I also think about how Inositol can reduce inflammation by actually reducing pro-inflammatory cytokines. These inflammatory substances that we find in the body, some of which are inflammatory in terms of cytokines, others are not. And then also impacts thought processing. This was something that I tried to get really detailed about because I found this particularly interesting as we are getting older, especially women in particular, as we're losing estradiol, testosterone, and progesterone signaling in the brain that can impact how-- do we have brain fog, are we struggling with trying to find the words, understanding that thought processing as we're getting older can sometimes be mitigated by hormonal fluctuations? But understanding that there are things that we can include into our diet or supplement regimen that can help improve this. It's interesting that this one research article that I looked at, it was talking about how when serotonin and dopamine levels are not optimized, so these are two neurotransmitters. As these are not optimized, it can actually make anxiety and depression worse. This alone can impact cognition, memory and can contribute to some of the age-related decline that we see, but how the introduction of some of these lifestyle measures can make a huge net impact. Now I know for myself personally, I always say that I can accept a lot of things that are changing in my body as I'm getting older, but the brain piece I'm not willing to accept. So, I'm always trying to optimize and make sure I stay sharp. I have teenagers I have to stay on top of and running a business and just being a good human. And I'm curious for you, when you were doing your own research, what did you see that was specific to the neurotransmitter processing in the brain? Anything that you could add to that particular research that I had mentioned?

Scott Emmens: What I saw was similar to what you saw that it does enhance the brain's ability to maintain both the amount of dopamine and serotonin. But also, this part that you had mentioned, the neural pathways helping to support the growth of neural pathways. Well, if you can grow neural pathways faster when you're learning something new, to me that is a massive advantage because as we age, growing new neural pathways becomes pretty challenging. If you can do anything to help support that and I think that's why I like to take the choline with it along with other things that I think support that ability to grow neural pathways. I take a lot of things that have BDNF in them such as Lion's Mane, ginkgo biloba. They don't have BDNF in them. They help the body support its own BDNF.

Exercise, particularly aerobic exercise helps with BDNF, which is brain-derived neurotropic factor. Basically, that's your fertilizer for your brain to grow new neurons. That to me was a big one. But also, the speed with which and the balance which with the dopamine, serotonin and I think might have mentioned GABA in there as well. That sort of perfect balance, again, I use the word perfect. That improved balance to me was really the way that I was like, this is something I really feel like is going to be important for my long-term brain health. Because just like you, I can take-- I'm 52, my body's not going to bench press 300 pounds anymore. I'm okay with that. But I don't want my brain to decline to the point where I'm just two steps behind or feeling like I'm not 100%. I want my brain to get as healthy as it possibly can be because by the time I'm 80, right, whatever my baseline is now, it's not going to get better at 80. But If I can maintain it or make it a little better over the next couple of years and then maintain that for a while, I'm going to have a little bit more capacity as I age. To me, I think of all the things I worry about from a longevity health standpoint, it is 100% brain.

Cynthia Thurlow: One of the other really important/interesting distinctions about brain health as we are getting older is the potentiality of loss of insulin sensitivity and poor metabolic health. That understanding that at the basis of insulin resistance or hyperinsulinemia is an upregulation and inflammation and oxidative stress which we know goes on to actually damage our neurons and our brains. Unfortunately, I think for many people, they don't understand the interrelationship that our brains in the latter stages of our lives 60s, 70s, 80s, and beyond are made in our 40s and 50s. So, understanding how critically important metabolic health is not just to our bodies but also to our brains is so, so important.

Understanding that also maintaining insulin sensitivity can help with buffering these hormonal changes that are happening in women's brains and frankly men's brains as well. The number one reason why men are dealing with lowered testosterone levels is this loss of insulin sensitivity and also exposure to estrogen-mimicking chemicals as well as women as they're transitioning from perimenopause into menopause, they're losing estradiol signaling, progesterone signaling, testosterone signaling in the brain that can actually exacerbate underlying insulin resistance.

Scott Emmens: That's a serious problem. I have heard the type 3 diabetes analogy fairly often, actually came out of the diabetes world and at that point they were starting to use things like metformin and TZDs, which are insulin sensitizers for clinical trials and Alzheimer's. Now, I don't think those drugs were the right kind of drugs because they don't cross the blood-brain barrier. So, that's probably something to think about. But speaking of crossing the blood-brain barrier and these issues with keeping the cell structure intact, chemicals in our diet can actually make your blood-brain barrier more permeable and not in a good way. You want to make sure that you've got this, your blood-brain barrier, you're doing everything you can do to protect it because if it breaks down and negative chemicals get into the brain, you're going to have more death of neurons and keep your body in this constant state of inflammation that you just spoke about. That's another thing that in our diets there're a lot of different chemicals and additives and food additives that you don't even necessarily know are letting things penetrate your blood-brain barrier whether you're aware of that or not.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, just even thinking, I did a great podcast with Jeffrey Smith, who's this incredible advocate that's doing amazing work educating people about the dangers of certain types of pesticides and herbicides like glyphosate. And understanding that glyphosate creates small intestine hyperpermeability aka leaky gut. Guess what? When you get a leaky gut, you got a leaky brain. Understanding that these things aren't entirely benign and just being conscientious, not feeling like you have to be fearful about your environment but just being informed, and understanding that things like grains, where you can get some exogenous sources of Inositol can also be challenging for the body to break down. I'm sure we'll probably talk about this, the role of phytic acid and exposure to these pesticides and herbicides that are designed to make, "Healthier crops," can actually lead to mineral issues, not being able to absorb as much minerals from the foods that we think we are, but also deal with some of the health implications of exposure to said herbicides and pesticides.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, we definitely have to talk about the phytic acid and natural exogenous sources of Inositol. Now, again, we had mentioned that the kidney and the liver make about 2 grams in the kidney and about a gram in liver. One of the studies I read, despite where it's made, the most concentration of Inositol is in your brain. Obviously, there's something that your brain needs with this natural body-producing compound that's critically important. Maybe it is time to get into the natural sources and why there are some issues there or did we skip something along the way?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's interesting, we touched on the fact that you can get some exogenous, which means outside the body, sources from nuts and grains and beans and fruit. What's interesting, though, is that in particular to grains, phytic acid is a component of a cell wall of plant-based food that can actually impair mineral absorption in the body. You may ingest said food, but your body may not be able to fully optimize. The statistic I read last night was that the average diet allows for 720 milligrams a day found in grains and seeds, but can be as low as 250 milligrams or as high as 1600 milligrams depending on the foods consumed.

It's interesting because as I was looking at different philosophies of research, organ meats can be a great source. I know that organ meats for many people are either things they don't like the taste of, the flavor profile, the texture, trying to get these into the diet. But I thought it would be interesting to kind of identify some of the things that can reduce our ability to be able to extract Inositol from food. Number one was insulin resistance or hyperinsulinemia. That was number one and again only 7% of the population actually is metabolically flexible, so that's important.

Low salt intake, we unfortunately have conditioned an entire generation of clinicians and humans that you want to have a low-sodium diet. It's really that you want a less processed diet. Most of the salt that people are consuming is iodized salt, which is a low-quality type of salt. It's not per se that we shouldn't have salts in our diet because I'll be the first person to say we need high-quality salt, but it's the quality of salt that we're consuming. Antibiotic use, I mean, how many people listening have been on multiple rounds of antibiotics? I certainly have had the benefits of needing to take antibiotics, but then understanding that that's largely impacted my entire body diffusely. Then, interestingly enough, caffeine intake, so especially coffee can reduce your endogenous stores of Myo-inositol which I thought was really interesting.

Scott Emmens: You're bumming me out.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, exactly and low magnesium. I'm always talking about magnesium anyway, but magnesium is critically important for the biosynthesis of Myo-inositol. Just get another reason why we need more magnesium replacement in our lives. You just can't get enough from eating organic foods or using a whiff of magnesium every day. I could go off on a whole magnesium tangent and my listeners know this, but those are just some of the ways that our modern-day lifestyles can impact our ability to create endogenous Myo-inositol and actually make it harder for us to keep our levels optimized in the body.

Scott Emmens: Absolutely. I read the same thing and it was kind of shocking to me because, again, I've done a lot of research on magnesium. When I read that magnesium was essential, "What is magnesium not essential to?" It seems to be essential to just about everything in the body. To your point, magnesium is drawn out of you for so many different reasons. Sodium, same thing, sodium is drawn out of you. I hear in the summer, you're going to need a lot of sodium. Because you're going to sweat out a lot of sodium. If you're a completely sedentary person or you don't-- hot sports or saunas are not your thing, or you're not a big sweater. maybe you only need 2000 milligrams a day. If you're an athlete especially a competitive athlete, you're going to need probably a lot more than 2000 milligrams of, to your point, quality sodium not processed sodium that's put into your processed pizza or from the old-fashioned little blue bottle there. It's iodized salt. You want a good quality, high mineral, high-quality mixture salt. And there're lots available. Yes, those are two critically important things.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and it's interesting, there're over 300 enzymatic reactions in the body that utilize magnesium. This is just one of many examples of why low magnesium is going to impact all of these other processes. I'm the first person to say that when I was working in clinical cardiology, we would recommend transdermal. So, skin-absorbed magnesium and oral magnesium to be able to optimize levels. Just understanding that most magnesiums are not going to get you to where you need to be. More often than not, most people need two different ways of getting the magnesium in through the skin and then also orally.

Scott Emmens: I'm pretty tolerant of magnesium. I take a number of different kinds of magnesiums, different forms. One form I'm actually looking into a little bit more is magnesium chloride because it's already converted into an electrolyte. Whereas the other magnesium your body has to take it and convert it into magnesium chloride essentially to make it an "Electrolyte." I'm really looking at that as maybe the next thing I add to my diet. But magnesium in general, I take a lot of in a lot of different forms. I'll mix them up, but I want to get one foundational magnesium, which I take on a regular basis. I usually add a threonate or a gluconate or bisglycinate and I'm looking into actually two new kinds to potentially launch in the next few months. You can't get enough and there're all different forms.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting because listeners will ask. I use Ancient Minerals. They have a spray that you can use, a spray oil, and also a lotion very efficacious. That's what we used in electrophysiology, which is a subsect of cardiology. Typically, you spray into two cupped hands, you rub on your trunk and your arms and legs, leave on for 20 minutes and shower off, very cost effective. You can get it on the Ancient Minerals website or even probably Amazon.

The other magnesium that I think is most efficacious for me personally is magnesium L-threonate. I take that in powdered formulation usually before bed. That is one of the very few formulations that will cross the blood-brain barrier. For me, it's all about relaxation, sleep support and those are probably the two I use the most of. I would say if anyone listening has magnesium oxide in their medicine cabinet, in their supplement drawer, you only absorb about 11%, it is worth throwing in the garbage. It is so poorly absorbed by the body. That was what we used to use in the hospital a lot until I knew better. I always like to share that as a pearl. If you have it, toss it, you don't get much out of it, and you're essentially creating expensive urine.

Scott Emmens: Yeah. The reason that-- So, almost every magnesium you see at Walgreens or your Rite Aid or your general pharmacy, 95% of those are going to be magnesium oxide.

Cynthia Thurlow: Which is crap.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how to get 10% off my new magnesium supplement. Magnesium is such a crucial mineral in the body. It's involved in over 600 enzymatic processes. Basically, everything that you do requires magnesium including creating energy from your food, turning it into ATP in the mitochondria, boosting your antioxidant system. Magnesium has been shown to help with the creation of glutathione, regulating your blood sugar levels, affecting nerve health, muscle recovery, muscle contractions, supporting cardiovascular health and blood pressure, aiding sleep and relaxation, and so much more. It's estimated that up to two-thirds of Americans do not get the daily recommended levels of magnesium and on top of that magnesium deficiencies can often be silent because only 1% of magnesium is actually in our bloodstream, so that might not be reflective of a true magnesium deficiency. Our modern soils are depleted of magnesium. We're not getting it in our diet. That's why it can be so crucial to supplement with magnesium daily.

I wanted to make the best magnesium on the market and that is what Magnesium 8 is. It contains 8 forms of magnesium in their most absorbable forms so you can truly boost your magnesium levels. It comes with the cofactor methylated B6 to help with absorption as well as chelating manganese because magnesium can actually displace manganese in the body. My AvalonX supplements are free of all problematic fillers including rice which is very, very, common in a lot of supplements including some popular magnesium supplements on the market. It's tested multiple times for purity and potency and to be free of all common allergens as well as free of heavy metals and mold. And it comes in a glass bottle to help prevent leaching of toxins into our bodies and the environment. Friends, I wanted to make the best magnesium on the market and that is what this magnesium is.

You can get Magnesium 8 at avalonx.us and use the coupon code, MELANIEAVALON to get 10% off your order. That code will also work on all my supplements including my first supplement that I made, Serrapeptase. You guys love Serrapeptase, a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm that breaks down problematic proteins in your body and can help allergies, inflammation, wound healing, clear up your skin, clear brain fog, even reduce cholesterol and amyloid plaque. All of this is at avalonx.us. That coupon code MELANIEAVALON will also get you 10% off sitewide from my amazing partner, MD Logic Health. For that, just go to melanieavalon.com/md logic, you can also get on my email list for all of the updates. That's at avalonx.us/emaillist. I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Cynthia Thurlow: Inevitably, there'll be lots of questions about why this supplement at this time. I think I've been very transparent that my focus for our collaborative work together is metabolic health, brain health, and certainly sleep support because that's such a pain point for so many. I thought we could talk about a little bit of the indications for why this is the supplement that we chose to do now and then talk about dosing, and then talk about why MD Logic's standards are so high and how that has impacted the decision to kind of collaborate together. Just from a high-level perspective, 40% to 60% of perimenopausal and menopausal women have differing issues surrounding insomnia. Those are not my statistics, that's just statistics that I read. Overall, 10% to 30% of the overall population, both men and women, some as high as 50% to 60% by the second study I looked at. We know it's more commonly seen in women and I think a large amount of that is the fluctuations in progesterone, which oftentimes helps us fall asleep, and changes in estradiol, predominant form of estrogen as we're transitioning out of our cycling years into perimenopause helps us stay asleep.

There was an article, meta-analysis in Frontiers in Psychiatry that talked about in observational studies, there's a higher prevalence in women than men. I don't think we needed a study to confirm that just from talking to patients over the years. Certainly, a greater issue for women than men. And then understanding that Inositol helps us fall asleep and then if we wake up in the middle of the night, will allow us to fall asleep more easily. Even Huberman Lab talks about how Myo-inositol is part of his sleep stack. He uses it several times a week, just makes it part of his sleep stack. I love my own sleep stack, but this is an absolutely integral part of it. We know that Myo-inositol impacts serotonin levels which induces a sense of peace and calm, certainly the way that you want to be thinking as you're kind of heading off to bed, and then it also has direct communication with GABA. GABA is this inhibitory neurotransmitter that we find in the brain and can help support healthy function of the receptors there. Again, inhibitory neurotransmitter that we are positively impacting by the utilization and supplementation of Myo-inositol.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, the number of things that it does for sleep is really remarkable as we talked about the faster onset of sleep, the higher quality of sleep, the sleep architecture, the ability to fall asleep if you wake up. And that's my problem. I can fall asleep, but I will inevitably wake up at 1 in the morning, thoughts racing, and 2 hours later I'm still looking at a podcast or something and I can't fall asleep. Now, I try not to take my phone to bed, but when I wake up at 1 in the morning, I'm like I need something to kind of soothe my brain back to sleep, so that's great. I have a sleep stack too, which now includes Myo-inositol and I also do my melatonin with that as well as I'm just recently experimenting with L-theanine, which I'm really liking. I haven't quite dialed in the right dosage yet or like timing, but I really like L-theanine both during the day as a cognitive enhancer with my coffee. It keeps me from getting jittery and kind of balance that caffeine out. I take one of our products along with it, which is a choline, Alpha GPC, acetyl-L-carnitine, and phosphatidylserine blend. I take that along with L-theanine in the morning and then I take the L-theanine, the Inositol, and the melatonin at night. With that combo, I've been sleeping really well.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's great. It's interesting because I have found that if I take the Inositol every night it works better than just using it as needed. I do think there's some degree of cumulative effect. The therapeutic dose that I have found is 1 gram in the evening is very effective. If you look at research on polycystic ovarian syndrome or PCOS, you can definitely see therapeutic benefit from 2 grams twice a day. But obviously, if you're working with someone on your PCOS, an endocrinologist, a GYN, an integrative trained healthcare practitioner, they may have you on other items as well. So, definitely worth discussing with them. It's interesting, there was one research article that talked about dosing in menopause is 3 grams a night. I haven't experimented with that. But having said that, I think the nice thing is you can adjust. If I'm having a particularly stressful day, I may take 2 grams at night as opposed to 1 gram. I think a nice starting point is 1 gram. I do find that most of my patients do really well at that dose.

Scott Emmens: I've been doing about 3 grams and that's been the perfect amount.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sweet spot.

Scott Emmens: I take 1 gram in the day, 2 grams before bed. That seems to be my sweet spot, 4 grams seems a bit much, so I've kind of been balancing around 2 to 3 grams. One of the other things I wonder if it helps with sleep is and maybe this is because of the GABA, but it has been shown to reduce cravings for binge eating disorder. It's been shown to help in panic disorders. It's been shown to help with certain anxieties and OCDs. I just wonder if all of these also are contributing to the overall ability to sleep. If you have less anxiety, you're going to sleep better, or is that you're getting sleep, thus your anxiety is lower. Chicken and egg sort of thing. It just seems to be working across the spectrum of things that disrupt sleep.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I think it's important just to understand that, as you mentioned the chicken or the egg, looking at it as what is contributing to the changes in sleep, for a lot of people, they're anxious by nature. It's hard to shut their brain off. Things like L-theanine as you mentioned and alluded to is a really nice amino acid. It's interesting we have components of L-theanine in green tea. We'd have to drink quite a bit to get enough L-theanine on board. That calming effect that you get from L-theanine that can be a nice adjunct to other types of sleep support. It would be remiss if we didn't at least touch quickly on metabolic health, I know we've talked a bit about it. We know only 7% of adults in the United States are metabolically healthy and fewer than one in 15 have optimal metabolic health. That means that you're not being treated for high blood pressure or elevated triglycerides. You don't have a waist circumference greater than 45 inches if you're a male, greater than 35 inches if you're a female. Means your fasting blood sugar is optimized, I like to say between 75 and 90, and you have appropriate levels of HDL. For women greater than 55, men greater than 45. Technically, the metabolic syndrome diagnosis is made when you have 3/5 of those.

We know that Myo-inositol can be helpful for insulin sensitizing. Then there's solid randomized controlled trials on this. We're not just sharing cherry-picking research. We're really looking at the research. It can effectively help to promote weight loss in conjunction with that. What I liked was there was one study that was talking about it can be used in conjunction with other medications like Glucophage, magnesium, progesterone in particular. You can utilize these concurrently. Again, if you're on any of these medications, talk to your prescribing provider. We're not providing medical advice. We're just providing guidance in terms of what the research is showing and it was interesting there was one article that talked about how utilizing Inositol with whey protein will help for better absorption. If you're not dairy intolerant like I am for a lot of other people, you could probably throw it in with a shake or make a protein pudding and know that you'll get better absorption from the whey utilization.

Scott Emmens: I did not read about that. But it's Interesting but now that I know coffee decreases Myo-inositol, I'm going to put 2 grams in my coffee in the morning.

[laughter]

Cynthia Thurlow: I think something that I think would be super helpful is to explain to listeners. We have this partnership together that we are co-collaborating on supplements. What is it about MD Logic that distinguishes your company from other companies on the market?

Scott Emmens: I think there're a couple of things. The first is what we've tried to do is a partner with people like yourself that have extremely high standards of what they are looking for. We don't do white label, which is private labeling, a product that you already make and then just putting someone else's name on it. That's not what we're about. We're about clinicians or people that are in the know that understand what they want in their supplement, what their customers want. That's the place we first start is who are the people we want to work with because we want to make sure that they are as committed to the quality as we are, that they're trying to do the best possible thing for their clients and patients because otherwise it would reflect negatively on us. So, that's where we start. It starts with the quality of who the client is that wants to create a supplement with us and then It goes through what we consider the gold standard of GMP.

Now, GMP has its baseline standards and many companies are GMP certified, but that doesn't mean they are GMP compliant. Meaning you can have a GMP facility that's had multiple violations over three to five years. I'm not suggesting that every company has to have a zero, never has had a GMP violation because they'll give you a violation for small things, potentially. When I say they that's the FDA. So, what we do is we start the process by looking at the ingredient itself, making sure that the ingredient itself, before it even comes onto the factory floor. Now, this is not necessarily what most companies do because you only legally have to test it at the end of the process. But we don't even want to bring the product into the door, into the quarantine facility where we make the products because if it's infected with mold or toxins, it could spill over to other things, so every product is tested for toxins, mold, heavy metals, purity, strength, and identity before it even gets into the facility.

Then what we do is we take that product and we create it in the perfect GMP process, which is, you have to make sure that the product is stored at a certain temperature. You have to make sure that you use certain specification sheets so even the documentation to make the product is important. We make sure that if we make what's called a variation from time to time or standard operating procedure that every one of those is filled out, that each process is followed, that the person in charge of the facility is following that SOP to the letter of the law, meaning if they say it has to be 6 inches above the ground, the product has to be stored 6 inches above the ground. All of our products are then stored and climate controlled. Then we send them out for testing. Some products we send out for third-party testing, but we do two in-house tests, which is, again we do all of those same things again at the end of the product. So, let's say we're making a combination product and we use seven ingredients. Well, after it goes through the whole process, you want to make sure of a couple of things. One, is it still as pure and clean as the day it arrived? And all of the strengths, purity and potency, and identity of those products what we said is in there.

So, if we said there's 100 milligrams of vitamin C, there's 100 milligrams of vitamin C. If we said there's 200 milligrams of astragalus, there's 200 milligrams of astragalus, and then is it pure? Does it still have the same levels of heavy metal as when it came into the factory? Or did it get exposed to something? So, it gets tested before it comes in. We follow all of those other regulations because if you leave something on the floor, it could get wet and it gets moldy. So, what came in as clean is now on your floor. It gets moist because it's on the concrete slab, and then it might create mold. We do the testing at the very beginning, all four of the GMP plus heavy metals.

For certain products, we'll send out for additional testing, such as enzyme products. We'll test out to make sure that the SPUs of an enzyme are active that there's what we say, how many-- 125,000 for our serrapeptase for example. We send that out for third-party testing to make sure that's how many active enzymes are in each of those capsules. It's not just an internal test, it's also external. Now, some folks say, "Oh, we third party test, but that also means that they third party, they're paying another client and another entity that they don't know this facility and they don't know if they're doing their job correctly. It sounds great to do third-party testing, but unless you know that third party really well and you know they're following all GMP, you really want to have your own ownership and oversight to make sure that the lab assistants are doing that job properly.

So, we do both an internal and [unintelligible [00:59:35] we need to we'll send things out for third party, on occasion we'll send things out if we're like questioning the potential toxins of something. We'll send it out for additional screening for pesticides, for example. We go through a very rigorous process. At then at the end, we also test it for shelf stability. Every single step along the way before it gets into the consumer's hand, it's been a chain of custody tested across the board for strength, compliance, identity, toxins, heavy mold, etc. At the beginning, at the end and it's climate stored from that process from the beginning to the end.

The only part of that process we can't control is if it's in a UPS truck in California. There might be a couple of hours, but we test things to make sure that they can withstand that kind of temperature for a couple of hours. Whereas when you go to a mega warehouse, let's just say box stores and shipping stores, for example, you have no idea how long it's been sitting there. You have no idea if GMP has been filed through that process. We feel really good about the products we send out because the ingredients are what we say, the purity is what we say, the heavy metals are what we say. We pass all of those tests on the front and the backend. That's what we feel really good about.

And then we work really hard to make sure that the product we're delivering has the least amount of toxic things in it and is the best for the environment it can possibly be, and we're working more and more towards that with each new product. Now, we're a young company, so we inherited some of the products we have, but each time we [unintelligible [01:01:11] a product, we're taking out the steroids and the palmitates, making it in a glass bottle to reduce phthalates in the world and plastics in general. You and I could talk about plastics forever. We're really taking extraordinary efforts to make sure that the product that shows up at your door is the best possible quality you can get.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and I'm so grateful for that. I talk all the time about how most pharmaceutical grade companies don't third-party source to Amazon. I think a lot of individuals are surprised to know that buying pharmaceutical grade supplements is really the way to go if you're going to choose to take a supplement, making sure that you're purchasing from a company that has such a rigorous set of standards for evaluation, transportation, and preservation of their products. Now, for listeners that are still listening and tuning in, want to be fully transparent and share that the presale for Myo-inositol or Inositol starts on March 11th through the 19th. You can get 25% off and you can go to www.cynthiathurlow.com/inositol. That's I-N-O-S-I-T-O-L, little bit of a mouthful. From March 20th to the 31st, you can get 15% off. So, obviously, you want to jump on board when it goes on sale and then understanding that you don't need a code for the presale that will get you directly to the discounted price. Again. www. cynthiathurlow.com/inositol I-N-O-S-I-T-O-L, little bit of a mouthful but it's fully worth it. Scott, always a pleasure to connect with you. Let my listeners how to connect with you outside of the podcast, how to reach you on social media or your website.

Scott Emmens: The best place to reach me is @longevityprotocol on Instagram or #collagenguru on TikTok if that's your thing. But primarily I don't do Facebook, so you won't find me there. If you would like to get a hold of me directly to talk to me specifically about anything, you can reach out to, let me be specific, mdlogichealth.com is our website. Reach out to us there, just say, "Hey, I'd like to speak to Scott Emmens" and our assistant will get you in touch with me.

Cynthia Thurlow: Great. Thanks so much again, Scott. It's always a pleasure connecting with you.

Scott Emmens: Cynthia, pleasure as always. Thank you so much.

Cynthia Thurlow: Thanks again for a wonderful podcast, Scott. Listeners can look for the show notes @ifpodcast.com/episode310 and submit questions to questions@ifpodcast.com or @ifpodcast.com. You can connect with us on social media. I am @cynthia_thurlow_ on Instagram or through my website, www.cynthiathurlow.com. And Scott may be reached at mdlogicwellness.com.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

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Mar 19

Episode 309: Low Carb Denver, Juicing Products, Detox Binders, Organic Produce, Glyphosate, Botox, Autophagy, Communion, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

IN DEFENSE OF LOW FAT: A CALL FOR SOME EVOLUTION OF THOUGHT (PART 1)

Welcome to Episode 309 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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19:10 - LOMI: Get $50 Off Lomi At lomi.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

22:15 - Listener Q&A: Amy - What are the benefits for GI detox and juicing products with a fasting schedule?

39:50 - Listener Q&A: Carla - Botox and autophagy

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47:15 - Listener Q&A: janie - Teas

52:00 - Listener Q&A: Denise - Communion

56:50 - Listener Q&A: Courtney - What is the one skin care product you can't live without??

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 309 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it’s that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare, and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like the Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 309 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. You went-- it was a Low Carb Conference in Denver?

Cynthia Thurlow: It was and I have to say that the quality of the speakers and clinicians and researchers was just phenomenal. It was so nice to be at a big event and feel like everyone really brought really strong presentations and lecture skills. And obviously, I love being in Denver. My mom and her siblings grew up in Denver, so I spent most of my summers there, and I've forgotten about the altitudes. [laughs] For those who are coming from the East Coast or at sea level, I don't care how fit you are if you're sensitive to altitude like I am, boy, it was like the first 24 hours and then tracking Oura Ring data and trying not to obsess over the fact that I just could not stay hydrated. It's really always fascinating to me, but I think this was much more magnified because I was doing so much talking and socializing much more than I would normally do. It was a great experience. Always good to see so many of those people that I really appreciate and value in the space.

Melanie Avalon: And you met Rick Johnson?

Cynthia Thurlow: I did. He is even more delightful in person and he's so gracious, I think your listeners, my listeners know this certainly is one of the most downloaded podcasts for 2022. He sat in on my lecture and sat in-- we had a panel afterwards and Sean Baker was on that panel and some other very recognizable people. And he was so gracious, there are people asking questions that were better suited for him. And so, I would say, Dr. Rick, did I get that right? [laughs] He is such a lovely human being. He is as delightful as one could imagine to meet him in person. I'm sure he probably reached out to you as well and has a new paper that he wants to discuss. I was saying, I was like, you're an A++ list player anytime you want to come on the podcast. He's just a wonderful human being and so smart and just humble and gracious and lovely, and it's nice to have people like that in the space.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I love him so much. He emailed his new paper. It's with Dr. Perlmutter.

Cynthia Thurlow: He is with Perlmutter and I think Dale Bredesen, too.

Melanie Avalon: It's about the connection of, I think, fructose to Alzheimer's. I haven't read it yet. I just looked at the title, but I was like, of course, you could come back on. And then he was like, I'm going to Low Carb Denver and I'm going to see Cynthia. I just love that man.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and what's funny is I talked about something that I don't typically talk about, certainly not a whole lot on social media, certainly not at an event like that. For anyone out there who, when you do something new and you feel like you have a little bit of imposter syndrome, although I'm very comfortable speaking to an audience. There I am and I've got Rick Johnson in the audience who's really the fructose expert, and there I am talking about the obese insulin-sensitive patient and reviewing research. It was really, really interesting. But, yeah, it was a great experience as always. There were a lot of amazing people there.

There were Ben Azadi and Dr. Gabrielle Lyon and Ken Berry and Chris Palmer. I mean, just heavy hitters in that space that are doing such amazing work. And even a few people I had not yet met before, which was nice. I always enjoy meeting new people. There were individuals that traveled from outside the United States that were Australian physicians and Israeli physicians that were there that are using keto therapeutically with their patients. It was exciting to be there and obviously meet so many people that listen to this podcast and my podcast and follow us on social media. It's one of those things I love. I love meeting everyone and talking to everyone. It's a great experience.

Melanie Avalon: So fun. I love it. It's funny when I, on the few rare occasions I do travel, I just don't look at my Oura Ring because I don't want to know if i didn't--

Cynthia Thurlow: It was impressive. My readiness score was down by 20, 30 points. Just prior to going on this trip, I have a new functional medicine doc in my area who I think is probably one of the smartest physicians I've ever met in my entire life, which says a lot, because I think I've worked with a lot of really amazing clinicians, and he's putting pieces together about my background. It turns out I have mild dysautonomia. If any listeners are familiar with POTS, postural orthostatic hypotension, I have a very mild degree of that and I've always suspected, but I didn't have it significantly, and certainly, we saw a lot of very sick people that have that. So, never really had that on my radar, but it makes sense why I need electrolytes and water as much as I do.

He said I think you've figured that out for yourself and you've done that for a long time. I think if you didn't take such good care of your health, you probably would not be feeling quite so good. But I failed a bunch of tests, so very humbling. On top of knowing that about myself, I just kept saying, I can't stay hydrated enough. It's just with the elevation. I drank two liters of watermelony when I landed and I still was dehydrated, even with electrolytes, I was like doubling up on LMNT, like two packets of LMNT in everything of water I was drinking, and still couldn't get over that hump. It was very humbling. [laughs] Very humbling. Exceedingly humbling.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. When did you find that out? Just recently?

Cynthia Thurlow: Gosh, probably about a week and a half ago. The provider I'm working with has got me testing all sorts of things, and he was like, listen, I think you're hypermobile. You've got dysautonomia, you've got this gut health, these autoimmune things that are going on. He's kind of connecting all the pieces, which no one's ever done for me before. I feel like maybe finally we'll get some good answers. I think all of us deserve to have really good care and really good clinicians. But I feel like for me, personality wise, I'm really well matched with this individual.

He's actually been a guest on the podcast, ironically, the new city that we moved to. He happened to be here. It has worked out very serendipitously, but he knows how to handle me. I say that with love and reverence because there's generally nothing worse than another healthcare provider as your patient. But I just said, listen, I surrender. I'm not going to micromanage. I'm very directable, very coachable. Whatever you tell me to do, I'm going to do. I may have to think about it before I do it, but I'm going to do it.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Well, I hope it's empowering that you learn how to come out better, knowing now that you have that, that's crazy.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it's definitely one of those things when the provider becomes a patient, you really have to put your trust in someone. I feel very grateful that I'm in a position that I can have him as my healthcare practitioner and someone that I know is going to move heaven and hell if necessary to get the answers. So, we've got all sorts of gadgets. I'll have to put this on stories. We're testing our water, but it's testing water to a degree to which I've never seen this kind of testing before. There's a whole kit in my kitchen that I have to take care of after this call. Test our water, because he's not he's convinced that there's something unique to Richmond. And so, yeah, never a dull moment. So, the provider is now the patient.

Melanie Avalon: Keep us updated.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] Well, it's a little crazy. Like, my husband was like, you're already a little intense and now it's like taking it up 100-fold. I was like, well, it's okay because it's me. I don't stress about it. I'm just like we're going to get information. It's all good.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's the way I am for sure. I have an announcement for listeners and hopefully, people were on the email list, so that they got this announcement. But we are doing, I'm going to try to extend it through today for people who are listening to our show today. A launch special where you can actually get 25% off grandfathered in for life. If you are enjoying serrapeptase and want to keep it in your life, now is the time.

If you currently have a subscription, you can switch over to this bottle option. We're going to be sending an email about that. And even if you're on the current subscription and you didn't get that amazing discount, when you switch over you will get it. Now is the time, but just as a brief refresher for people. Serrapeptase is a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm, and it breaks down proteins in your body, problematic proteins, not the good proteins that you want to keep.

It's not autophagy, but it's that concept that we talk about a lot. And so, it can help with inflammation. It will completely clear your sinuses. It can reduce cholesterol, break down fibroids. It's just anti-inflammatory, so many things. I'm obsessed with it. That's why I made it my first supplement. So, definitely consider getting that subscription. And again, the information about it was sent on the email list. So, that's at avalonx.us/emaillist. Also, you can get text updates if you text AvalonX to 877-861-8318. Just as a reminder, the reason I made this whole line is because I'm very suspicious about supplements and I wanted to create the highest quality, best of the best of everything. And that's honestly what this is.

And, oh, something really exciting. Cynthia, last week there was this report on a major news site. It was like a major report about berberine and it was very third-party objective, I was not involved in this at all. It was exciting because they were talking about the berberine market and listing all these brands, and then they had a section where they talked about up-and-coming berberine brands and they included me. I was so excited. It makes me feel like a real, I don't know, real product creator. Like, seeing this stuff getting picked up in third-party organic news is very, very exciting.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that's wonderful. I think it's probably very affirming to know that that was included in that publication.

Melanie Avalon: It was really exciting. Lots of good things coming, but yeah. Anything else from you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, the thing that's really exciting my second supplement Inositol will be out in a couple of days and we'll have a whole episode. The next episode after this will be talking about the science behind it, why I chose to select this as the next supplement in my line. The Creatine has just done so well even with subscriptions. I've been really very grateful and humbled, and the feedback on it has been amazing and I know that the Inositol will be the same. For anyone that's listening that's not familiar with that, it is a supplement that has been really well researched, helpful for not just metabolic health, but also brain and cognition, sleep support, in particular, helping to induce sleep. If you wake up in the middle of the night, it helps people get back to sleep as well. Even Huberman Lab has been talking about Myo-Inositol. So, from my perspective, it's another supplement that a lot of clinicians and researchers are speaking up about in greater support of. It's just an easy way to support the body. I've been taking it for over a year, and I think it's had a lot of net benefits not only with helping monitor and help maintain healthier blood sugars, but also help with sleep support in a way that's really benign.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome. I just realized we didn't give links. So, my website is avalonx.us. And where can people get that and where can they get on the email list? And when is the exact launch date?

Cynthia Thurlow: Launch date is March 24th. You can go directly to my website. There'll be a little box on the main website, so it's www.cynthiathurlow.com and you'll be able to click on the link and you will get access to the Inositol. We're calling it Inositol just to keep it, it's a little wordy and its sometimes awkward to say it, but we'll provide explanations as to what form of Inositol is, it's the one that has all the benefits I referred to.

Melanie Avalon: Friends, I am so excited to tell you about one of my new favoritest things ever. Okay, so you guys know I eat a lot of cucumbers. I don't think that this is any secret. I find myself throwing away pounds, yes, pounds of cucumber peels every single night. I felt so awful just throwing it in the trash. It seemed like such a waste. I'd always wanted to try composting aka a sustainable approach to turning food waste into healthy dirt. But it seemed really intimidating and not very practical. So, it was on the to-do list for quite a while. You can imagine how thrilled I was when a company called Lomi by Pela reached out to me, wanting to sponsor the show. Normally I have to think about all the brands that reach out to me. I was an immediate yes. I was so excited. I got my Lomi device, it is incredible.

And Lomi is super cool. It has three different settings. It has the Eco-Express setting, which is low energy consumption, provides the fastest results, and is good for your food waste. It has the Lomi-Approved setting that's 5 to 8 hours. You can actually put in Lomi-Approved bioplastics and other compostable commercial goods and packaging that are Lomi Approved. And then there's the Grow Mode. That's 24 hours, it's low heat with a longer duration, and that actually preserves the microorganisms the most to help the soil and promote carbon storage in the soil. I am all about regenerative agriculture, so the fact that we can help put carbon back into the soil is so, so incredible.

Well, we can jump into some questions for today. So, to start things off, this is left over from our AMA grab of questions that comes from Amy, and she wants to know "What are the benefits of GI Detox and juicing products with a fasting schedule." I know we've talked about this on the show before, but I don't think we have with you, Cynthia. So, I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on this.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I have differing opinions on some of these things. GI detox is a binder and it can bind to a lot of different things that you're exposed to. I take GI Detox with me when I travel in case I, God forbid, happened to get a little bit of food poisoning or get exposed to things I don't want. So, binders act as a catcher's mitt, so whether it's heavy metals or toxins that you're exposed to, I always like to remind people that GI Detox in particular is a branded supplement of a binder. Usually has apple pectin, some dichotomous clay or earth. You just want to make sure that if you're consuming the GI Detox, you're not taking it around other products, supplements, or medications because it will bind kind of like a catcher's mitt. It'll bind to everything that you are exposed to. So, usually, I'll say 30 to 60 minutes prior to a meal or 2 hours after.

If you're taking in a fasting window, likely not an issue, but just being conscientious about what you're taking around it. Juicing products, it's kind of a fun variation of fasting while still getting some nutrients. Now again, you're going to technically break a clean fast. I do have this as a variation in my book, people can utilize. But I'm talking about green juices. I'm not talking about sugary juices. I'm talking about cold-pressed juice that has not been pasteurized. Either making your own or purchasing from an organic juice company. I like The Weekly Juicery, that's usually who I recommend. I don't have an affiliate link. I do just like their products and they can ship within the continental United States. We're talking about green juices. Green juices are not going to have this adverse net effect on blood sugar. There're a couple of different ways to do it. Some people just use green juice to break their fast as an opportunity just to stay hydrated. Some individuals like to consume six juices throughout the day and just have a digestive rest day.

Again, this is another idea around fasting. It's not clean fasting because you're actually consuming some food. A lot of my patients and clients like this because it's just a hydration piece and then they're super well-hydrated throughout the day. I think that it's important just to know we're not talking about the pasteurized juices at your grocery store that have 30 grams of sugar per juice. This is really green juicing. It's mostly-- you know it's very herbaceous, I'll just put it that way. Whether it's kale or celery, I mean, these are very herbaceous juices that don't have-- they have little to no sugar in them. Again, Weekly Juicery is who I usually point people to because they ship throughout the United States, and it's organic, and it's cold pressed, and it's not heat pasteurized, so it doesn't denature the intrinsic enzymes of the vegetables or maybe they've got lemon. It's not going to denature the properties intrinsically of these items. You mentioned that you've answered this question before. What were you and Gin saying about these subjects in particular?

Melanie Avalon: It's been a while. I'm trying to remember Gin's opinion. Well, I remember my opinion, which is still pretty much the same. Although interesting quick sidenote, I feel so silly when I was reading this question, I didn't realize she was talking about a product there with GI Detox. I thought she was saying the benefits for GI detox, but obviously, it's a product because that doesn't really make sense in context. Juicing, I think it's very nuanced and a little bit complicated because I think people often have a black-and-white view of juicing, where it's like the most amazing thing and they may think they just drink all the fruit juices and it's going to save them, which does seem to happen for some people. But I think often, in that case, it's where people are coming off of a processed diet, have certain health conditions, and then they go into this state where they're really just giving their GI system a rest because they're basically just taking in instant energy.

And then it's high in vitamins and hydration and then it often ends up becoming calorie restriction because it's hard to drink that much juice and be in a calorie excess. Although you can do it, especially if you're drinking really sugary drinks. But basically, I feel like the mechanisms of why it works probably extend beyond, why some people think it works, which is that it's just this magical juice itself. When I think it might be a lot of factors involved when you get really-- I don't want to say restrictive, but there're a lot of factors that going in besides the actual juice. Like I just said, the rest of the GI system, the ease of processing that energy. Something else really interesting, and this might be getting a little bit on tangents, but another thing about juicing is that it is essentially fat free, so if you're doing a juice fast is what I'm talking about.

She's talking about juicing products. I guess she might be talking more about having juicing while still eating because having a fasting schedule. Like juice fast, that essentially is like a completely fat-free approach and people will do that for days, and people who are really overweight will do it for days and days. I know there's a documentary that made it famous where that guy did it for, like, weeks. Do you know what I'm talking about? It's like a really famous documentary that I feel like made this really popular. Do you remember it?

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm embarrassed to say, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: He was fat, sick, and nearly dead. When did that come out? 2010, 60 days. It was an Australian guy, and he did it for 60 days. I feel like that made juicing pretty popular. And the especially things like medical medium and the celery juice and all of that. The interesting thing I want to say about that is, in general, I am very hesitant about hitting our bodies with massive loads of glucose and sugar. I do think in a juicing context, it's a little bit protective because you're literally just taking it in and burning it and there's no fat with it that would be exacerbating metabolic problems with taking in that high load of sugar. I'm not saying that it's fine to just take in lots of sugar. There have been studies where people have health benefits and even beneficial effects on blood sugar levels on extremely high-carb diets. For example, there's this really fun blog post by Denise Minger. Did you ever follow her?

Cynthia Thurlow: No.

Melanie Avalon: She wrote really, really epic long blog posts that were very, very solid. I don't know what she's doing now. She doesn't really blog anymore, but I used to just absorb her content. But she has a really good book called In Defense of Low Fat: A Call for Some Evolution of Thought (Part 1). I don't know if she ever did Part 2, because she tends to do like me where she would just post really epic long blog posts and then you wouldn't hear from her for a while. I'll put a link in the show notes, though. But she has a really good overview of research done in the 1930s by a guy named Walter Kempner. And he did research on tons of patients. It says 18,000 patients with kidney issues and diabetes, and he would treat them with essentially a fat-free diet and, like, reverse their conditions and I realize I am on a rabbit hole, but the point of this is, I think people can get benefits from, ironically, a high glucose load in the context of actually fat-free approach with something like juicing.

It is not fasting [laughs] in the sense of fasting like we talk about. You're not going to be in ketosis. You are taking in nutrients. You're taking in calories. I just see it as a different tool or something to try. I think some people can do really well with it and do it for however long they're doing it, and some people will have crazy blood sugar swings, and it just won't work for them. So, I think you need to know you.

And then another caveat. I'm glad you brought up the organic bit Cynthia and this is just me, I would not juice with conventional juice from anything. Yeah, that actually makes me really nervous because the amount of pesticides and glyphosate and things like that, you're just going to get that in a massive bolus if you're taking in the juice, especially because glyphosate is water soluble. So, you're basically just hitting yourself with a potentially high load of that. That actually does make me very nervous. I know that's like debated because some people will say-- because this actually for me extends to some produce in general. Some people will say it's better to have conventional produce than none at all. I actually don't know. I wish we had charts that would actually show the amount of pesticides and produce, conventional, because it might turn out that some conventional produce is fine and it might turn out that some has exuberantly high amounts, kind of like mercury and fish. That's the whole thing to think about. But I also like your idea, Cynthia, about some people opening their window with juicing products. I think that's great. I also agree with everything you said. Now that I know she's talking about that detox product. You nailed it with all of that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and it's interesting. I'll be completely transparent and say that we know that celery juice as an example can be anti-inflammatory always in the context of the individual, because I'm sensitive to oxalates, so I have to be careful how much I do of them. I think that has a lot to do with continued persistent healing of my gastrointestinal tract. But I think for a lot of people, I think they're pleasantly surprised at how it makes them just feel more hydrated. And I think it's very individual. Like, obviously weekly juicer is an option or if you have a local juicer, you can make your own. It's just a variation of fasting. I think for some people, like the novelty of it because it's just different. And so that's certainly reasonable, but I love that you brought up the contamination and why it's so important to be conscientious about organic options if they're available to you.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I know we've talked about this before, but I just really think it is more of an issue than a lot of people realize. I think it is a good analogy to mercury in fish because you don't see it. Can you imagine if we could actually see these toxins?

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, God. I probably never leave my house. I was telling my-- I was on social media sharing what my go-to meals are when I'm traveling. It's usually like a naked burger or a steak. I had a naked burger two days in a row for lunch and then had steak for dinner, and I was completely happy. But I had dinner with Ben Azadi on the last night, there was a VIP dinner and we're sitting next to each other. Ben whips out this card that he's created. I know that our mutual listeners know Ben because he's been on our podcast and Ben is a really good friend of mine, and it's a card that says he has an allergy to seed oils. And so, it's really nicely done. I looked at Ben and I was like, "Ben, I can't worry about that tonight." He sent his meal back and out came a meal that had no seed oils and the meal looked completely different. And everyone at the table was like, "Well, that's great now." [laughs] It's challenging to navigate going out and knowing what you-- when you don't have full control over how your meal is prepared and how your food is prepared. Yeah, it led to some very interesting discussions. Of course, everyone at the table was like, that's brilliant that he carries that because his meal looked totally different than our meal did.

Melanie Avalon: Well, it's so funny. Two things, one, when he came on my show recently, which we haven't aired it yet, but he talked about that card, so it's exciting to hear it in person. What type of restaurant were you at?

Cynthia Thurlow: There was a VIP dinner at the Gaylord Rockies. This is this big massive hotel that has like 1500 rooms. I mean it looks like a mini city. And so, we were there having this, it was a keto, low-carb compliant meal, but it still had seed oils in it. And so everyone at the table had just started to eat and I was like I'm looking at this beautiful bison filet and asparagus and cauli rice, and it looked really good, but it definitely generated some interesting conversation for everyone.

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. Over the weekend, my brother had his birthday dinner. Have you been to Chattanooga?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not.

Melanie Avalon: Such a cute little city. There is a restaurant there, the chef has five James Beard Awards. It's called Opa! and it's crazy. He's this Greek guy and it literally feels like you're in a Greek village and he comes out and he just says, meat or no meat. You just say, meat or no meat. He just brings out the food, so there's no menu, and he just brings out wine from his local village and it's all inclusive, free flowing, and then at the end, you break plates, you throw and smash plates. It was an entire experience. But leading up to it, there was a lot of drama in my family because my family they like literally-- because it was my brother's fiancé planning it. They didn't want me to come because they thought I was going to not be able to eat or have a lot of requests. And I was like, "It's fine, guys, I can like adopt. It'll be okay." What's funny is I ended up going and I think everybody realized that they were making a big deal out of nothing because it really was okay. But it was the one time that I can remember that I wasn't able to make modifications because I didn't want to make-- I don't know.

They were really specific that they didn't want me to ask for modifications. It was really interesting, though, because I actually called the chef beforehand and was like, is that okay if I was like, "I really just eat, like, meat." And he's like, "Oh, of course." He's like, "That is my pleasure too." He's like, "I make you happy." So, it ended up being fine. But I will just say, stepping back from that, I'm going to be so grateful in the future to be able to make modifications because I just feel better.

I mean, the food was delicious and I don't know what type of oils it had if anything, and he does make it all fresh, but I just feel so much better when I do make those restaurant modifications. It's just worth it to me. But I do find it really interesting that people-- it was interesting to hear about that experience with Ben because a lot of people are probably on the same page. It can be hard to navigate the restaurant world and feel, like, accepted or that it's okay to make those requests.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think for anyone listening, I just stick to the gluten, dairy when I'm out. I try very hard to otherwise just be open. Like, we don't eat out a lot for a multiplicity of reasons. All right, here's something to disclose to the listeners. My husband, when I went from being a clinician predominantly to an entrepreneur, he kind of stepped in. He's kind of little bit OCD about food, so he stepped in as like the head meal prep person. Yes, my husband does meal prep and it's awesome and I'm grateful for it. We divide and conquer that's kind of our mindset around household chores and things for the kids.

He's a really good cook and therefore I enjoy going out to dinner for more of a social experience. Nine times out of ten, I'd be happier just eating at home. And that's how all of us are. As I'm listening, I'm like, we so rarely eat out that when I go out, I try to make sure we're going to a locally sourced, they're using grass-fed meat and things like that, and wild-caught fish. Beyond that, I try to just acknowledge, like I always say, it's like 90/10. If I get a little bit of seed oils when I'm out and I'm unaware of it, I'm just going to leave it as I'm unaware of it because otherwise I would not enjoy [laughs] my meal. Although I respect people that are even more conscientious than I am about when they go out to dinner. I'll just put that in there just to say that for full transparency, we prefer eating in.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, I'm similar to you in that. Well, I do love the food aspect, but I really just love the social aspect of everything. In general, I think we talked about this on a recent episode as well, that situation aside where there literally was no menu and my family didn't want me to make additional requests, even though, interestingly, I will say the chef was so nice. He was all about it. He kept coming and checking and being like, "Are you all happy?" I think it actually would have been fine if I had made additional requests, but that's okay. I think once you do find your system of ordering, however, makes you happy. So, like with you, Cynthia, the gluten free, dairy free, and then kind of ending it there, like I think just finding what works for you is the best way to go. It sounds like Ben's card thing is pretty cool. I should get that.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's hilarious. I mean, I was like, you're brilliant. I will give you all of the props. I put into my stories, and people were like, how can I get that? [laughs] I was like, "If you want exactly this? This is where you go to." But I think it's brilliant.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. I love it, love it. Awesome. All right. Shall we go on to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. This is from Carla. Subject is Botox and autophagy. "I've gotten Botox in my forehead for several years. I'm thinking about all the things I want autophagy to do in my body. It begs the question, does autophagy work to clean up the Botox and therefore not work on other more important things? I've started to have this mindset of not wanting to waste my autophagy processes on things I can control. I suspect I am insulin resistant among a few other things and I think it would be wise to stop Botox for a while until I see improvement in those areas. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks, ladies."

Melanie Avalon: All right, Carla, so this is a great question. So, for listeners who are not-- I mean, I think a lot of listeners are familiar with Botox, but I think a lot don't actually might not realize what it is, because I didn't. It is the botulinum toxin and it paralyzes muscles. It's preventative. Basically, if you paralyze your muscles, then you're not creating the contractions that create the wrinkles to form in your face in the first place. So, it's like freezing your face essentially. You can also use it for different health conditions. I've started getting it in my jaw, actually, for TMJ, so I'm very excited to see how that goes. It was something that I thought a lot about. By the way, if you live in Atlanta, I go to Slim Studio. I love them there. If you go, tell them I sent you. But I did a lot of research on it because it is a neurotoxin which sounds concerning.

I think in the end, it's mostly a cost-benefit thing of-- are the benefits that you get from that worth whatever detrimental side effects there might be to having that toxin in your body? Most people don't experience any cognitive side effects like they don't realize having side effects from the actual neurotoxin in the muscle. Granted we don't have super-duper long-term studies on it, but I just think you have to look at the return on investment for that. As far as Carla's specific question about autophagy cleaning up Botox, well, stepping back, on the one hand, I think it's great that things like autophagy and these cellular processes are becoming much more conventional or understood especially in our world.

Moving beyond that, they are so much more complicated than I mean, definitely than I understand. I think a lot of us understand. So, I think we tend to see autophagy and we make these assumptions about what it works and what it does when it's probably a lot more complicated than that. What I mean by that is I don't know that you have this limited amount of autophagy and that it's cleaning up Botox. I just don't know that that is what is happening, [laughs] if that makes sense. I wouldn't even look-- and this is just me, but I wouldn't even look at it in that framing. I would look on it more on the toxin side of things, because Carla you talk about having these different health things that you're working on and wanting to reduce that burden and I think that's a great framework.

If you're working on health things, you want to do whatever you can to reduce your toxic burden, so that would be all encompassing. Your skincare and makeup products. We talk about Beautycounter all the time on here, your food, your lifestyle, and then when it comes to something like the Botox, so injecting that neurotoxin into your muscle, I think you really have to look at a big picture, the potential side effects of that small amount of neurotoxin in your muscle that your body will metabolize at some point compared to the beneficial effects that you get from it. It might be that the beneficial effects, like the happiness that you get from Botox, I mean, you can make the case that that provides so much more-- because mental, emotional health is really, really important in our health as well. If it's making you happy, then that might outweigh the small amount of neurotoxin that you're injecting.

I think you've just got to think about it, look at the cost benefits and see what matters to you. But I wouldn't necessarily look at it and like I have this X amount of autophagy that is cleaning up this amount of stuff, because I don't even know if autophagy is involved in Botox processing. I Googled it and there was definitely not studies on it. [laughs] So Cynthia, what are your thoughts?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I have to agree. I don't think the minimal amount of Botox that's being injected into those muscles to paralyze them is per se taking away from the big picture of autophagy that goes on in a fasted state. That upregulation of the waste and recycling process. I think that certainly, Carla is kind of alluding to some other things that she wants to work on. I would worry less about the Botox and I would focus more on reducing her insulin resistance, getting tested, getting information, and finding out how all the variables I mean, I literally just talked about this at Low Carb Denver, the insulin-sensitive obese or overweight patients because there're assumptions made. There're certainly lots of things that can be done. Obviously, fasting is one of them. But I would turn your concerns towards the foods that you're eating and your sleep quality and your stress management and are you strength training and are you working through your personal care products and your food and your environment, estrogen-mimicking chemicals and how there's this whole toxic theory of obesity and how that can impact insulin resistance? I would focus more on those areas is what I'm essentially saying. I think that there's no research that I was able to find. I concur with you Melanie and certainly, I think big picture, there are other things to focus on.

Melanie Avalon: That's the way to frame it, big picture.

Cynthia Thurlow: Our next podcast sponsor is Athletic Greens. I take AG1 by Athletic Greens most days of the week. I initially gave it a try because I wanted to simplify my supplement regimen. And quite frankly, I probably have tried every product on the market. And AG1's taste is amazing. I take it typically in the morning after working out and when I'm getting ready to break my fast. Very quickly I noticed that it helped me with improved digestion, made my hair and skin look even better and help support my sleep. I do consider it to be one of my absolutely essential supplements I take most days of the week. With just one scoop, I get the nutrients and gut health support that helps my whole body thrive and cover my nutritional bases. As I mentioned, it's really important to me that I keep my regimen as simple as possible. AG1 is one of those supplements that really help me thrive. It's also a climate-neutral certified company. That means they are a fully carbon-neutral business.

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Melanie Avalon: So, we have a question from Jamie. The subject is teas and Jamie says "Hello. I'm still unclear about which teas are clean. I was hoping you could clarify for me, please. I drink herbals, chamomile at nighttime before bed consisting of oat flower, licorice root, lavender flower, lime flower, tulsi leaf and valerian root and red bush without milk with natural oil of bergamot to give it an Earl Gray flavor. Are these considered clean from a fasting perspective? Many thanks and best wishes," Jamie.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Jamie, these are the types of questions that are so common for us to receive. I think it's all about keeping things pretty simple if we're looking at clean fasting. When I start seeing all these different flower essences and I know nothing about oat flower, obviously, licorice root, I don't know how that's prepared. I would say, when in doubt, leave it out and just enjoy this in your feeding window, you mentioned the Rooibos tea and then the natural oil of bergamot. I just kind of think that might be something that's processed because it says to give it an Earl Gray flavor.

Again, when in doubt, leave it out and enjoy in your feeding window. I think about really simple things like ginger tea, green tea, black tea, really keeping it simple, and it's designed to be bitter. When you start introducing all these other flavor profiles, I start thinking potentially depending on how it was processed and we're really getting nuanced here, and I don't want anyone to stress about this, but the more that's done to the tea leaves themselves to make them palatable, I just think that deals with more processing.

I don't know if anyone knows this, but actually most teas are also highly contaminated. This is something where it's worth it to spend a little bit more money and get an organic version. I like Pique tea. I like their green tea a lot. I don't prefer black tea it's a little scooch too bitter for me. But when I'm really trying to ensure I'm getting those beneficial polyphenols, I try to be conscientious about sourcing. Just kind of as an aside, don't stress about this, but the more that's done to the product to get it on the market, the more processing or exposure to oils, etc., the more I get concerned that there might be things in there that we want to avoid in a fasted state.

Melanie Avalon: Is Pique tea, that's Jason Fung's company, right?

Cynthia Thurlow: Pique. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Pique. Okay. Did he do anything special for it to make it?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's like carefully sourced and it's super clean. I believe it's organic. Yeah, it's sustainably sourced USDA organic certified and triple toxin screened. They're sourced in the highest quality family farms from all over the world. Yeah, saying they are amongst the world's greatest and most protected sources of biodiversity.

Melanie Avalon: Nice. Yeah, because I'm glad you brought up that aspect because going back to what we're talking about earlier with the juices, the toxins and teas can really be a problem. I know even, like, heavy metal contamination in teas is an issue a lot.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. Oh, absolutely. It's something that I think a lot of people just don't realize. It's like I don't want people to then be paranoid, but yes.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I thought that was a very comprehensive answer.

Cynthia Thurlow: But I think I understand because tea can be super delicious and some of these attributes, I'm sure make this wonderful synergistic flavor profile. But when it starts getting complicated, I'm just like, listen, just have the bitter tea.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I remember when I was-- and this was probably when I was doing fasting and low carb, but I wasn't paleo yet. I would drink, like, all the teas and there was this Sugar Cookie Sleigh Ride tea that Celestial-- Oh, I would drink all the Celestial Seasonings Teas.

Cynthia Thurlow: They're all super sugary. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Or they're like very flavory. I remember that Sugar Cookie one was so delicious, but then I remember it actually said that it was not gluten free and I was like, whoa.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's interesting because I was just in London and we did this whole high tea service, which was so much fun. My cousin was like, dare I ask?-- [laughs] She was like, dare I ask? I was like, "Oh God," I mean, we're in London. They should have high-quality tea, right?

Melanie Avalon: Was it? No.

Cynthia Thurlow: They were like, "Well, you know we sourced from here. Yes, it should be, but we don't with 100% certainty." And I was just like, microplastics and all sorts of things that have the potential for being in our teas, which no one wants that.

Melanie Avalon: Yup. Okie dokie. Shall we go on to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. This is from Denise. Subject is communion. "Loved your book and everything it has taught me to totally change my life and lose 44 pounds so far and still going. Here's my question. I had been away from church since I started intermittent fasting mainly due to work, but have recently gone back and stopped working on Sundays. As soon as I put the host in my mouth, it dawned on me that I just ended my fast for the day several hours too early. I love God, but is there anything I can do next Sunday so this doesn't happen again? I like the fasting approach I'm using, so I'd rather not change it. I was thinking maybe I could take the host home until it's time to have lunch, but I'm not sure if that's acceptable either. I have a feeling you've come across this question before and I'm curious to see your answer. Doing a search didn't specify anything to do with intermittent fasting and communion only religious fasting. I'll appreciate any insight you might have. Have a lovely day," Denise.

Melanie Avalon: All right, Denise. Thank you so much for your question. This also is one we've answered on the show, but it was a while ago. And so, I am excited to hear Cynthia's answer. For my answer when it comes to something-- like this kind of relates to what we're talking about earlier with just like lifestyle choices. If this is something religious, I personally would not worry about it. I would just engage in the religious tradition or whatever it may be and not sweat it. It's a very small amount of presumably bread. She's talking about I didn't know it was called a host. I've never heard it called that before.

Cynthia Thurlow: She's probably Catholic. That's what we call it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you do? Okay. I don't think we call it that, maybe we do. So, I wouldn't stress about it. Of course, if it was something where you're celiac and you couldn't have bread, that would be like a different thing. I do wonder with stuff like that on the rise, do if some churches adapt for that. Do they do gluten free?

Cynthia Thurlow: I am told that some Catholic churches offer gluten-free options, but I don't think it's the norm.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah, that's really interesting. That's my thoughts on it. I would not stress about it. It's a small amount. Hopefully, you don't get crazy blood sugar swings from it and you can just get back into your fasted state pretty quickly. You could take some Berberine, some AvalonX Berberine before? What are your thoughts, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I have actually not answered this question in this context before. I think that our relationship with our spiritual life and our religion is a very personal one. I am Catholic, was raised Roman Catholic, and when I go to Mass on a Sunday or a Saturday, I just don't let it be a stressor. With that being said, I think it's big picture. Like we need to focus on what's the big picture? You are standing in communion line, you are taking Holy Communion, you are putting the host into your mouth that basically disintegrates almost immediately and then you swallow it. I don't think that should be a deterrent. I don't think you should bring the host home because in the context of being in Mass, you're just accepted at that time. I think that whether it's 10:30 Mass, 11:00 Mass, it's once a week. I don't think it should be a source of stress.

And certainly, when I go to Mass, I only go twice a month, sometimes once a month. Coming off the pandemic, we really got out of the habit of doing it. It doesn't even register. It's just part of the ritual of being in Mass. To me, my faith and my relationship with God and the Holy Spirit is a personal one. Even though I've been dedicated gluten free for eleven years, having a host a few times or once or twice a month, it doesn't even register as being a concern and I don't think it should be for you either, Denise. That's my personal opinion.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, two thoughts to that. I'm glad you addressed the bringing it home. I would not bring it home because, like you said, Cynthia, that's the purpose and the point is engaging in that sacrament at that moment. I don't know that it's something you can do like a la carte afterwards at least not for the original purpose of it. Like you said, Cynthia, it's such a small amount. Going back to what we're talking about earlier like the big picture grand scheme of things, I don't like to talk in absolutes, but it's probably not going to make any difference on your overall health physically having that one small little piece once a week.

Cynthia Thurlow: I agree. Yeah. Don't sweat the small stuff as they say.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. So alright. We will end with one last quick question, also a carryover from our AMAs. Courtney wants to know what is the one skincare product you can't live without.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm obsessed with clean Chapstick, obsessed. It is the one thing throughout my day that I apply throughout the day that I'm very conscientious about. When I travel, I always have it accessible. It's this organic shea butter Chapstick product. I would say that is like my ride-or-die product. I could do without a lot of other things, but if I don't have that accessible to me, I buy them in mass quantities. I've got them in a drawer in my kitchen. I have one in my drawer in my study. I have one upstairs. I think I have two in my purse. Super moisturizing and just really nice. How about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. I never wear Chapstick.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I have to, my lips have to be moisturized.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Beautycounter has these jellies, I love those. I wear those. But yeah, not Chapstick.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's not a gloss, it's not lipstick. It's just super emollient and the stage of life I'm in, I love having really moisturized lips. Not so that they look glossy, but that's like my go-to.

Melanie Avalon: Got you, Chapstick.

Cynthia Thurlow: Probably makes me sound crazy, but I was like, "Oh, I know exactly what I would choose."

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. I know she said one. I'm torn because there are two Beautycounter products that I use every single night and I'm obsessed with them, so I'm going to say both. I've seen such a change in my skin from using these and when I travel, I bring them and they're just amazing. It's the Overnight Resurfacing Peel, which it's not a peel, it sounds like a mass that you peel off. It's not. They call it that because the effects basically rival a chemical peel that you would get, but without the toxins and the craziness. So, it's just a serum. But It's amazing for brightening and antiaging and skin tightening. "Ah, I love it." I always wash my face and then I put that on and then I let it dry. I use their All Bright vitamin C Serum, which I love, love, love that also is just amazing for the antioxidants and the antiaging and the brightening effects on your skin.

I think something that's really important to keep in mind about skin is, well, A, I think our diet has such an effect on it. It's funny. I didn't start using skincare products for the longest time because I was like, "Oh, it's all just diet. It's all just what I put on the inside. I don't need to worry about the outside." And then I realized, "Oh, this actually does have a major effect because you can directly put these nutrients into your skin." So, that's important. Which is also why it's important to have clean skincare because you could also directly put toxins into your skin. So, yes, those two products, the Overnight Resurfacing Peel and the All Bright C Serum, I love those. By Beautycounter. It might change when this comes out. New customers can shop. We both have links for Beautycounter, so they can shop with either of us. New customers can use the coupon code. It changes, sometimes it's CLEANFORALL20, sometimes it's CLEANFORALL30. It's the words CLEANFORALL and then 20 or 30 ant that will get you either 20% or 30% off. So, try those codes.

So, okie dokie. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. Show notes for today's episode will be at @ifpodcast.com/episode309. Those show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. You can also follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and then definitely tune in next week because it's going to be a super special episode with Scott Emmens. I think people are really starting to love Scott, so that will be with Cynthia and Scott about her Inositol, so definitely stay tuned for that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Okie dokie. Anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. Thank you so much for all the great feedback and tags on social media about the Creatine. People are loving it and I'm very, very grateful that everyone is enjoying it as much as I have.

Melanie Avalon: I wanted to tell you, Cynthia, while we're recording this episode that aired for me last Friday was with Kris Gethin. He's a bodybuilder with a massive social media following, but he's done an Ironman as well, which is really cool. He has a supplement line, but he in that episode talked all about Creatine and how much he loved it. It's always exciting to hear it come up. I feel like I keep hearing it more and more from people. I don't know if it's because it's more on my radar now or if I just am genuinely hearing it more and more. I think it's both.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, me too. In fact, now anytime I see it, people tag me in other people's posts, and I always agree with what they're saying. What I love is that it's not just men that are talking about now, it's also women.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I think that might be one of the reasons as well that it's being talked about more and more is that it is on women's radar. Whereas before I feel like it was more just like the bodybuilding sphere, but now we're realizing the benefits beyond that. So, awesome. All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

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Mar 12

Episode 308: Photo Shoots, Post Exercise Meals, Birth Control, Vitamins & Supplements, Cycling With Seeds, Cayenne Pepper & Other Spices, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #149 - Chris Masterjohn

Welcome to Episode 308 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

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SHOW NOTES

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22:30 - Listener Q&A: Melanie - Alternative forms of birth control pros and cons of each.

22:30 - Listener Q&A: Sarah - What do you think about copper IUDs?

22:30 - Listener Q&A: Terri - What is the effect of fasting on birth control?

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56:00 - Listener Q&A: Amy - Can you talk about seeds that help with hormones?

59:35 - Listener Q&A: Kara - Cayenne Pepper & Other Spices

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 308 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 308 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I want to tell you about something fun that I did and I'm super curious your thoughts on this type of experience. I know you have a lot of professional photos, obviously. How do you feel about doing photoshoots? Do you enjoy them? Do you not like them?

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, come on. I'm an introvert. What do you think? [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Not a fan? [chuckles]

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's a necessary evil, if you have to think about it that way, I have one plan for April and I think I finally found a really amazing photographer who gets my aesthetic that I want. And so, I'm very relaxed around her. I'm very comfortable, but no, I don't love it, not one bit. [laughs] Here's the thing, in the context of having a website and social media and all these things, it's just a necessary part of the business. But as an introvert, it is not my favorite thing I do. I spend an inordinate amount of time figuring out what to wear and what to do, [laughs] it's a lot of time. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Well, it's funny. So historically, acting is what I do, which is very much an on-camera thing. I was having a really long conversation with my friend about this last night, and he couldn't understand. So, I did a photoshoot yesterday and I've been needing to get a lot of photos, especially now that I'm doing more and more press-related stuff, I just need good photos for that. I think the hardest part you mentioned it briefly, but finding a photographer that you're really comfortable with, I think is half the battle. So, ended up shooting with this woman, actually, I can give her name. So, if you're in Atlanta, her name is Adrian Louise Photography and I haven't seen the photos yet. While taking the photos, I saw them small on the camera. But I think I'm going to be really happy with them. So, I'm really excited about that. I can do selfies because you see yourself, so I can pose. I can do acting because I'm not thinking about what I look like. With photoshoots, I find it so stressful because I'm not acting, I'm not doing a selfie so I can't see myself, and I can't make my selfie face when I can't see myself for some reason, I make a different face. The way around it, "Oh, my goodness." [chuckles] My trick around it is that if I have a mirror on the set, so if I can see myself in the mirror while they're taking the photos, I can do a lot better. Or if there's not a mirror, I hold my mirror in my hand so right before she takes the photos, I pose like my selfie pose and then I look at the camera and that works really well for me.

I'm just reflecting on how much this is like a first world problems thing. [chuckles] I used to feel really subconscious about doing that because I've been doing that for years and then people might be tuning out by now. [chuckles] Paris Hilton, who takes take a note of really legit, amazing photo shoots, I found a video of her talking and she's talking about how she does the same thing, that she has to have a mirror on the set because that's the only way she can pose. And then I felt so vindicated, I was like, okay, this is a completely normal habit. I could have my mirrors on the set and do my selfie pose and then take the photo. That is my suggestion to listeners if they need to do a photo shoot and they find that they can take photos of themselves, but they can't with a photographer. Just bring your phone and pretend you're taking a selfie and then look at the camera [laughs] and you're good to go. But I'm really really happy with how it turned out. We shot at a studio that was super cool. It was like all white and they had all these different sets like a fireplace and a bed and a kitchen. So, I think I got a lot of content and I think I'm just going to book more sessions with her for ongoing, but I was so stressed about it. I don't know if you get stressed leading up to them.

Cynthia Thurlow: I don't. I think because I've done this so much that I know I've got characteristic things that, we took my last set of photos in my neighborhood and in my house because I have a very clean design aesthetic and so it really was great backdrop for the photos and so were talking about options. She doesn't live in the state I'm in, but she's actually going to come in for the photos again, but I trust her implicitly. I think a lot of it's just feeling comfortable and for me, I'm not like a selfie person. I think a lot of it's the introverted side of myself. It's not a lack of confidence. It's just much like I wasn't doing IG live while I was on vacation, was that there has to be a separation, like some degree of privacy in my life. So, I accept that photos are part of the brand and the marketing and the business. I'm glad that you found someone you felt so comfortable with and you had a really good experience.

Melanie Avalon: Speaking to the self-conscious piece, I am still very self-conscious about selfies, I think because they feel very egocentric. They're just like, look at me. Every time I take a selfie, I feel like I have this ego issue around it where I feel like it's very stuck up. So, I need to channel my sister. She's so good at it. She's like, "What does it matter? Nobody cares. Just do you?" Yeah. The whole photography world is really really interesting. So, I'm glad to have that behind me. Anything new with you?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. I just found out I'm speaking at an event that I applied for in December. So A4M is one of the functional medical conferences. I was just invited to speak, which is super exciting, which means I'll be in Florida in May, talking about metabolic health which is really my focus, and my drive, and ways to improve upon that. I've been reading some really interesting research on individuals that are obese or overweight and are still insulin sensitive. I really pitched that concept because there's solid research talking about, what are the predictors for individuals that will then go on to develop fulminant hyperinsulinemia aka insulin resistance? What are the things that predict that insulin sensitivity will be lost? So, that's been really interesting and that's actually what I'm presenting about in Denver.

Melanie Avalon: That's a very cool topic.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's really interesting because I think even as a clinician, we make assumptions that if you're obese, then you must have lost insulin sensitivity and that's actually not the case in specific individuals. Some of its age related, but there are key metrics that we can use to measure, like whether it's looking at fatty infiltration in the liver or looking at skeletal muscle. I mean there's a lot of different metrics we can look at to determine whether or not someone is still insulin sensitive.

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting, too. It's on the flipside, you can have the opposite like the Asian population that tends to be thinner.

Cynthia Thurlow: The genotype.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, thinner, but they have the metabolic issues.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and it's interesting. My cousin that I was with in London, she's a physician. She's married to someone who is American, but is of Indian descent. And we were talking because she's familiar with this thrifty genotype. We were talking about how her views with her patients and talking to people just don't assume that someone who's thin is still insulin sensitive. Because Southeast Asians and Asians, they have an ability to become insulin resistant at a much leaner mass than Americans. And so they suspect that some of it is related to that thrifty genotype.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I find this all so fascinating. Awesome. Well, I wish you the best with all of that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: Super cool.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into questions for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. Okay. This is from Priya. "Dear IF podcast, I'm a lover of intermittent fasting and I've tried it several times throughout my life seeing the benefits. I was wondering what is the best time to exercise when you are doing intermittent fasting? I recently joined spin cycle in the morning and started having breakfast afterwards. I wish to fast until 12:00 PM as I normally do, but I don't know if it is unhealthy to not eat within one to two hours after exercising." Thank you so much for any advice and help, Priya.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, Priya. Well, thank you so much for your question. Actually, last week I was talking about how I recently interviewed Thomas DeLauer. I know he talks a lot about this and we talked about this in the interview as well and we've talked a lot about this on the show. But there are so many fears out there about exercise and eating and when you need to eat and do you need to eat before exercise to fuel it? Do you need to eat right after exercise to recover from it? Long story short about both of those questions and I realize you're asking about after, but I will talk about both. The long story short is that eating before to fuel when you're fat adapted not necessary typically, especially with things like more fat burning mode-type things, so lower steady state cardio and things like that. Even with weights and using your muscles, you can do those in a fasted state as well. On the flipside, with eating afterwards, no, you do not have to eat right after.

That was one of the things that Thomas talks about in his book is that right after exercising, you've really got this upregulated fat burning that if you eat right afterwards, if that's your goal, you're kind of shutting that off rather than continuing to burn fat after the exercise. No, you don't have to eat right afterwards. That would be for the fat burning cardio type stuff, but then for the spin cycle which she's doing, for muscle building, you also actually don't have to eat right after. The anabolic window for protein for muscle recovery is actually 24 hours. The stimulus for the muscles that you activate from that exercise lasts for quite a while and you don't have to eat right afterwards. All that said, major caveat if you're a bodybuilder, if your thing is building muscle [chuckles] that's what you do, they do have more tailored regimens surrounding protein intake. So, if you have very specific goals, it might be a little bit different. But as for the everyday person, you don't need to eat right after. Your thoughts, Cynthia.

Cynthia Thurlow: I would 100% agree and I've asked Gabrielle Lyon this several times about, is there this anabolic window, this magic window after exercise? I agree wholeheartedly it's what you consume in a 24-hour period of time. I think for anyone that's new to fasting, they may not exercise very effectively if they're not fat adapted in a fasted state. But I do find that it really depends for most women where they are in their menstrual cycle. They might be able to work out really intensely in their follicular phase and they may feel like when they head into their luteal phase, they just can't go two to three plus hours after exercising. So, I think part of it is just the awareness that you can exercise fasted if your fat adapted and then also understanding that you really want to fast for your menstrual cycle, especially as it pertains to exercise and when you should open up your feeding window.

Melanie Avalon: So glad you tend to that. Yes, that's something that you definitely know a ton about. Awesome. And then speaking of something you know a ton about, we have quite a few questions. I'm just going to read all of them. They all involve birth control, so we're going to have a birth control talk. First question is actually from Melanie, but not from me, a different Melanie. She wants to know the alternative forms of birth control. What are the pros and cons of each? Sarah wants to know, what do you think about copper IUDs? She says, I've had mine for seven years, but I want to get it removed. I've heard it can interfere with hormones, even though it doesn't contain hormones. Love to hear your thoughts. Terry says, we have heard a lot about PCOS, menopause, and perimenopause and fasting. What about those of us in their 30s and 40s who are still on birth control? Personally, I'm on Depo-Provera and 47, I've been in clean fasting for two years. What is the effect of fasting on birth control? Also, what can a woman expect as they enter perimenopause years but have no intention of going off of birth control? I don't want a perimenopause baby. I'm also happily married for the last seven years and we have both made the choice that children are not part of our lives. We have tons of nieces and nephews. Love the show and I've been a listener since starting IF two years ago. All right, birth control.

Cynthia Thurlow: This is the birth control trifecta. First and foremost, there is no shame in utilizing birth control whether you are peak fertile years or perimenopause, heading into menopause. I think the real thing is to identify like, what have been the birth control methods that I think women have had the easiest time tolerating without too much inconvenience. I would say, number one, the copper IUD seems to be really well tolerated. Obviously, it's not a forever item. It does have to be explanted and then a new one implanted. I would say in terms of ease of use, I'm not going to be a teetotaler here and say, "Okay, every woman needs to use condoms." I think that probably works for some people. Obviously, diaphragms and cervical caps, sponges, suppositories, there are some options that include they call it FAMs or Fertility Awareness Methods, and obviously Daysy is one of them. It's a tracker that tells you when you are most fertile. I have found that has been very helpful for a lot of people. If you don't have particularly regular cycles, I think a copper IUD nonhormonal is a nice option. But I think it really comes down to what interests you.

I know that there are a lot of women still in perimenopause that are using oral contraceptives, Depo-Provera is birth control that's implanted usually in the arm. I haven't seen a lot of Depo-Provera used in the last five, ten years, but that doesn't mean that it's not a reasonable option. But I think this really comes down to what stage of life you're in. What your partner is willing to do. Vasectomies are pretty straightforward and that's usually what I generally recommend. If people don't want to be on hormones, they don't want to be having hormones implanted. And so, I really think it comes down to life stage decision making and working in conjunction with your GYN or your midwife or whomever you see for, Well Women care to determine what works best for you. But there is absolutely, positively no shame if you decide that you want to use synthetic hormones or oral contraceptives that is certainly your choice and your option. I do like some of these other options that I identified and I think a copper IUD might be one of my favorite options. And ironically enough, Huberman Lab. I was listening to one of his recent podcasts with Dr. Sara Gottfried and ironically enough, she was saying that's one of her favorite forms of contraception to recommend to women who have not yet gone through menopause.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Does fasting specifically have any effect on any of it?

Cynthia Thurlow: On fertility? Oh, absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: No, on birth control, Terry wants to know what is the effect of fasting on birth control?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, there are a couple of different things that fasting can impact and it can absolutely impact fertility. So, if you're over fasting, it could diminish the likelihood that you are going to get pregnant. I remind women that even if you're choosing not to have children, if you're not eating enough food, if you're over fasting, overexercising, over restricting, you can send very powerful messages to your brain that can cause you to lose your menstrual cycle entirely. There are some pretty widespread effects of not having adequate estrogen levels in your body during peak bone and muscle mass building years. And so, I think that in the context of someone who's eating a healthy diet, even if they're fasting, they're not overexercising, they're taking care of themselves, fasting can be a nice strategy, but it's impossible for me to say in the context of Terry's situation what her fasting schedule may be doing to her particular menstrual cycle or her fertility. Because she's not my patient, so I think that's probably a conversation worth having with her GYN or her primary care provider. I would say that more often than not when I see women that are getting closer to menopause, she's 47, so kind of the towards the end stage, mid to end stage of perimenopause that there are things that you can look for. But obviously, if you're on oral contraceptives or you're on Depo-Provera, it would make those labs harder to interpret.

Melanie Avalon: Got you, got you, got you. I learned a lot. All of my thoughts surrounding this question are not really helpful about the actual question. They're just my thoughts on issues relating or on things that happen related to birth control. Like, I was actually on birth control-- I was put on birth control in high school for acne-

Cynthia Thurlow: It's so common.

Melanie Avalon: -and just looking back, I just don't know that that's the route I would have gone. I don't know that was the best thing for me. I don't think they make YAZ anymore.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. YAZ is probably gone. It's interesting because I was someone that probably had very mild PCOS, like, I never had regular cycles. But back in the 80s and 90s, everyone got put on oral contraceptives, so you missed the opportunity to really fully understand what they were doing. And now you have a whole generation of women who missed out on peak bone and muscle mass. I think that a lot of women mean if they had received fully informed consent, I wish I had because I've been osteopenic for intermittently throughout my adult lifetime. My functional medicine doc and I believe pretty fervently that a lot of it was many years of being on oral contraceptives. Where you're kept in a very low estrogen, low progesterone and you're receiving synthetic hormones kept in the state that really potentially could have exacerbated missing out on those opportunities to really build peak bone and muscle mass.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, that's so interesting. Yeah. I mean, just looking back at my experience and I know this is hard to understand now because I'm very thin now. But just if you look at my high school pictures from before being on the birth control and then going on the birth control, I rapidly gained a lot of weight and you can really see it. And just like it was doing something hormonally. I don't think I needed to be experiencing that, especially not for the purpose of acne, which I don't know, I just think it's an issue. Although like you said, there's probably much more awareness surrounding it now maybe with teenagers and acne. Do if that's still a thing?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think it's still being used off label for that. I think the other piece is how many women come to me as clients that are on oral contraceptives in the latter stages of perimenopause and even into menopause who are terrified to stop. Because they've been on it for so long including my best friend from high school who is still on the pill. I keep telling her, I'm like, you are probably in menopause, [laughs] but I think that's for many people, they've just been on it forever and they don't know any differently. I was on it, gosh, until I was married, and then I went off, and then I just expected getting pregnant to be really easy. And I really think the pill masked what was always probably there that I had mild PCOS, like, I have thin phenotype PCOS and so it's a whole rabbit hole.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, wow.

Cynthia Thurlow: There you go, listeners. You got a whole bunch of TMI.

Melanie Avalon: I thought that was very helpful, very educational. Thank you. All righty, so shall we go on to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, and this is from Alani. This is one of the AMA questions. "Would you please, please, please provide a list of the vitamins and supplements that you take daily or weekly? Just curious."

Melanie Avalon: Okay, two hesitations about this question. [chuckles] One, I know this might come as a surprise. Actually, it might not because I say it a lot, but for those who have not heard me say it before, might come as a surprise because I have a supplement line. That said, I actually think in the dreamworld we would get the majority of our nutrients from food and we wouldn't even need supplements. Now I actually am going to go down a rabbit hole that I see myself going down. Are you familiar with Marion Nestle? She wrote a book called Food Politics, all about how the food industry affects mostly like, dietary guidelines, and consumer relations with food, and how we are sold all these processed foods and stuff. She's like a really big deal. She's one of those guests that I got connected to completely through a friend, like a friend was just, "You should interview her and I was like, okay." She's so cool.

Like, Time Magazine named her a while ago because it was one, what's her name was had not fallen from grace, Elizabeth Holmes. It's when Elizabeth Holmes was on the rise. Time Magazine named her, Elizabeth Holmes, and two Nobel Prize people or something as having the most impact on something related to health and everything, which is very cool. So, the reason I'm talking about all this, she talks about-- This blew my mind because I'm reading her memoir, just came out, so that's why I'm interviewing her. I think she's like in her 80s maybe now. She talks about when she first had her epiphany about how the dietary recommendations were created for vitamins and stuff and it's shocking. She went and actually read the actual studies and when they went and decided these recommendations for every vitamin that hasn't changed, recommendations haven't really changed.

They're based on the two examples she gave, was, I think, maybe B12--. What was it? It was one of the B vitamins and then I don't know one other vitamin. It was literally an insane asylum. A very small amount of patients and giving them the adequate amount, I think it might have been like niacin. giving them the adequate amount of this nutrient versus not and did it improve their behavior? Literally, [chuckles] it's the most awfully constructed inconclusive study ever. You have a very small amount of patients with mental health issues and you're going to evaluate, do they have more or less mental health issues if they're getting this more of this nutrient? That's a whole tangent. I've been learning a lot from her books. She's basically the reason that there is now, nutrition policy type-related studies and stuff in college. So, I've really been enjoying her books. That was a whole tangent.

I think the point of it was that I've also interviewed Chris Masterjohn, and we talked a lot about the RDAs and stuff. And it's just very interesting vitamins, that's the point of all this. Vitamins are interesting in what is proposed to us as to what we need and is it too much, is it too little? Some vitamins depending on what type they are, can actually store up, so there's a potential for toxicity. Some vitamins and minerals, most people are probably deficient in, like magnesium. And then just the supplement industry in general, I think that's something else she talks about a ton is the regulations of the supplement industry versus the food industry and how that all works. The supplement industry in general is just very-- I just don't really trust it, which is the reason that I think both Cynthia and I started. At least I don't want to speak for you, Cynthia, but that's a main reason that I started mine is I just don't really trust anything on the market. So, I wanted to feel good about what I was putting in my body. That's my big disclaimer before answering this.

The second disclaimer is that hands down, what I take is not a plan that everybody should take. We are so individual, so people have really got to find what they need and what works for them, and it's all unique. So, I give my examples and if Cynthia gives hers, please don't copy us verbatim, please. So, first of all, when it comes to vitamins, I would actually do testing for things like fat soluble vitamins to see where you're at with them. Especially something like vitamin D, I think a lot of people, if not most people are deficient, but that's something that you actually can test. For example, I went through a period where I was like, I'm going to get all the vitamin D and I found with using InsideTracker that I often get high with vitamin D because I kind of go overboard. But I do take some vitamin D, I used to take methylated B vitamins, I don't anymore. Nutrient wise though, magnesium, I think it's so important. I really think it's the one mineral that most people are deficient in. That's why I made my Magnesium 8, which is eight different forms of magnesium in their most potent form with no problematic fillers. That's the AvalonX Magnesium 8, so I take that.

I also take a lot of magnesium not for the vitamin potential, but for the bowel moving potential because I'll get constipation, so I find that taking magnesium citrate individually can really help. Also, there's this, it's called Mag O7, I really want to make my own version of it, so stay tuned. I plan to, but in the meantime, I take it because it's really good to help keep things moving along. I'm trying to think other vitamins like nutrient wise. In the past, I took some selenium, I don't anymore. I really like ENERGYbits, so Spirulina, Chlorella for their broad-spectrum minerals and vitamins. I also plan to make my own of that as well, so stay tuned. The supplements I really really take that I love, obviously, I'm obsessed with my serrapeptase. I've been taking that every single day for years and years and years. I'm just really happy because the version I've made is so much better than what I was taking. So, that's a proteolytic enzyme that breaks down problematic proteins and can help with inflammation and clear your sinuses and reduce cholesterol. It's even been shown to break down amyloid plaque.

When Gin was hosting the show, she took it to get rid of her fibroids. So, I love that. I take berberine every day. Oh, this is something I wanted to share. Okay, I'm glad we're talking about this. This is an update I had. I've been taking berberine for a while now and I've worn a lot of CGMs while taking berberine. Actually, started taking berberine one of the first times that I wore CGM because I wanted to see how it affected my blood sugar levels. I used to take Thorne, and so I was taking it and I did see an effect on my fasting blood sugar levels since switch. I'm so excited and happy about this because when I made my own version, I knew that it would be a high superiority, high potency, it wouldn't have problematic fillers, it's in a glass bottle. It's the berberine that I wanted to be taking.

I wasn't sure if I would see any difference though on my actual blood sugar levels. So, I am honestly shocked. I wore CGM and it was the first time wearing it while taking my brand of berberine. So, AvalonX Berberine 500, my postprandial blood sugar levels are consistently down by 20 points, which is shocking to me. I mean it shouldn't be because [chuckles] that's what berberine can help with. It was really shocking for me to see that intense of a difference and it's very consistent. Historically, after I would eat my meal, because I eat a very high carb meal every night, like pounds of fruit. And so historically, my blood sugar would go from before eating it would usually be in the 70s or 80s, and then it would bump up to anywhere between the 120s, 130s, sometimes 140. Now, it rarely goes above 110, maybe up to 120, but the average is probably reduction of 20 points. So, I mean, I'm blown away by this. That's something I take every day and then I'm just running through my head, is there anything else? Oh, I take Atrantil still every day, that's amazing if you have digestive issues, it really really helps me. You can get it at lovemytummy.com/ifp, it was created by Dr. Ken Brown, who I had on my show way back in the day. Wow, that makes my show feel really old because I feel like it was forever ago that I interviewed him. But he made Atrantil, it's like a combination of different all natural herbal things, polyphenols that actually specifically attack the type of bacteria that's connected to SIBOs, the methane-producing bacteria. Actually, I don't think it's bacteria, I think it's archaebacteria, which are actually not bacteria, the Archaea, they're a different type of organism.

In any case, it can really help with that especially if you have something like SIBO and it can help with motility issues, so I love that. There is something else that I'm forgetting. I'm going through in my head. Oh, of course, at night I also take NMN, as long as it's on the market to support NAD levels. And then I also do NAD injections once a week that I really like. Ever since interviewing Nayan Patel for his book The Glutathione Revolution, I've been taking his glutathione spray. I mean, he really [chuckles] convinced me about not only the benefits of glutathione, but also that liposomal glutathione is probably completely a waste of money, as is glutathione drips, as is glutathione pushes. It doesn't actually get into the cells. It is just like in and out with the bloodstream. I understand that he has a book and a supplement line, so it could be biased. I found his research and the interview very convincing. I'll put a link to it in the show notes.

On top of that, I asked my friend, James Clement, who I really, really trust, who has a lab where he studies the blood work of centenarians, and he as well said that it's basically useless to do glutathione drips or glutathione pushes, so save your money, friends because those are expensive. I take the Auro Wellness Glutathione Spray. So, if you go to melanieavalon.com/auro A-U-R-O and use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON that will get you 5% off site wide. So, I take that every single night. It does smell like sulfur. I use it at night, not during the day for that reason. I think it's probably very beneficial for boosting glutathione levels. Then, of course, this is not vitamins, but it is a supplement. I really, really benefit from digestive enzymes and HCl for digestive support. It helps me so much and that is something else I plan to develop in the future. I might think of more things, but I think that's the main things. You can get my magnesium, my berberine and the serrapeptase all at avalonx.us. Coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off. You can get a 20% off code if you text AVALONX to 877-861-8318 and definitely get on the email list because I do a lot of sales and specials and all the things and that is at avalonx.us/emaillist. That was long. Cynthia, how about you?

Cynthia Thurlow: That was very comprehensive. Thank you for sharing that for brevity, because I'm sure that there are no listeners that want to hear the multiplicity of things I take. I think the most important thing to really emphasize is that it's nutrition first and then supplements. So, maybe it would be beneficial to share the things that I take at night. These are things that help support sleep. I would say first and foremost, progesterone, which is prescription, I have mine compounded. Progesterone is what is really a starting point for a lot of women navigating perimenopause when our ovaries are producing less. We get the byproduct of less circulating progesterone, impacts sleep quality, impacts anxiety and depression if you're prone to that. It also impacts our menstrual cycle so we get this relative estrogen dominance. For me, progesterone is critically important at night and I'm starting to see more clinicians that are not just using this the week prior to the menstrual cycle. Even in menopausal women, they're cycling it throughout the "month," but obviously a menopausal woman doesn't have a cycle, so progesterone is number one.

There's a product called Myo-inositol and I've been using this as a sleep piece. Myo-inositol also is beneficial for blood sugar but we know that it helps with induction of sleep, it helps stay asleep. Even Huberman Lab talks about how he uses this as part of his sleep stack. So, Myo-inositol powder prior to bedtime. You may see research on this with regard to insulin resistance, PCOS, but there's really solid research using it in otherwise metabolically healthy individuals as well. I think quite a bit about GABA and L-theanine. GABA is an inhibitory neurotransmitter. I don't per se take GABA and L-theanine every day. Really just depends on what my stress levels are like. I take things like Seriphos which is phosphatidylserine. This is a special type of healthy fat that is beneficial for brain function, but also helps reduce cortisol. So, if you are having a super stressful week, I've done quite a bit of travel over the last week. You better believe I was taking Seriphos [chuckles] while I was on the airplane and also my first night home from London.

And then I think about adaptogenic herbs, things that can beneficial, I think about ashwagandha, I think about Rhodiola rosea, I think about Relora. I don't use all of them together. I create a cocktail based on my own needs each night depending on what has to be facilitated. But I would say those are pretty commonly in conjunction with melatonin. Now I'm menopausal, so after the age of 40 our bodies start making less and less melatonin. It is also a master antioxidant and it's not just a hormone. I've interviewed many physicians on the podcast that do recommend supplementation with melatonin after the age of 40. Again, if you have concerns about this, I would discuss this with your primary care provider, GYN, etc.

I also think about creatine. Creatine, it's one of the reasons why it was one of the first supplements that I created. Very helpful for maintaining muscle mass, but also helpful for brain support and cognition and sleep quality and so creatine is always a part of my daily sleep stack. No, I don't take it prior to bed, I take it during the day. But I think it's really important to just emphasize that every person listening, the sleep foundations are still really important, so getting sunlight exposure, sleeping in a cold dark room, wearing a sleep mask if you need it, getting off electronics, wearing blue blockers if you need to be on electronics, having some type of strategy for bedtime that's more important than taking supplements.

Now, I've mentioned my favorites and obviously for full transparency, creatine is a product that I created in conjunction with MD Logic, I fervently believe in. The feedback has been phenomenal and from my perspective it's important for people to understand that sourcing of supplements is very important. You don't want to just go to Amazon and order a bunch of things. You want to make sure that you are getting pharmaceutical grade supplements and that's where I think less is more. Meaning not everyone can afford to be on 40, 50 supplements every day, that's why the nutrition is important, the lifestyle piece is important, and then layering in things that you need.

Certainly, I think about hormones if they're needed. There's no shame in that. so progesterone definitely helps us sleep. I do fervently believe that estradiol, which is the predominant form of estrogen our body makes prior to going through perimenopause and menopause and also testosterone can be helpful, but always in the context of what your body needs and getting proper testing and working with clinicians that are able to interpret testing so that they can fine tune and bio-individualize your recommendations. I also take Athletic Greens or AG1 as its new name and it's really been a great way to get more comprehensive vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics into my diet and to not have to think about multiple supplements. So, it's something that I can use in my feeding window in a shake or even just added to filtered water makes it really easy. I can get my kids to take it too willingly because it tastes really good. That has been something I've incorporated into my supplement regimen over the last several years. I wanted to make sure I mentioned that as well.

Melanie Avalon: Just a quick comment about Athletic Greens because I historically have not taken Athletic Greens after hearing you talk about it and then I feel like Joe Rogan talks about it a lot, as does Rich Roll. I've been like, "Oh, maybe I should start taking it." If I do, I'll definitely report back because it seems to be a pretty cool way to get a broad spectrum of vitamins and minerals really easily. The reason I haven't is I'm like such a sensitive butterfly to things that it has a lot of things in it. I've been like, "Oh, what if I react to it?" I should probably at least try it and see how it goes.

Cynthia Thurlow: I would do like at a time. For me, I can't do it every day because of the oxalates, but I do two to three days a week and I travel with them. Because I always feel like if I'm traveling, I'm probably not getting the variety of foods in my diet that I would if I were home. If I can get my kids to take it on occasion that says a lot because it actually tastes good without being sugary. I've probably tried every greens powder that's out there, most of them, it's like trying to eat grass. I'm like, "No, can't do this."

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's the other thing for me is I'm like I said severely allergic to grass, but I want to try it. Maybe I'll use our link. You can actually get, I think, unless their offer is changed when this airs, but you can actually get a free one-year supply of vitamin D. Oh, that's cool because I was saying that I take vitamin D. I actually have been taking their vitamin D because they sent it to me and five free travel packs with your first purchase. For that, you can go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast. So definitely check that out. So, glad that you emphasize and that we're on the same page about the nutrition first, food first, lifestyle stuff first for the sleep things.

I actually as well use progesterone. I use a progesterone cream. When I was first prescribed it, I was taking it orally, but I've been doing a cream ever since, and I really benefit from that. I also have another sleep one I wanted to mention I really like Dr. Kirk Parsley's Sleep Remedy. He formulated it to have all of the ingredients that your brain naturally needs to fall asleep. He formulated it after being a doctor for the Navy SEALs and realizing that they all had these issues and the one common-- and by issues, I mean health issues as well as mental health. He realized that the common factor was that none of them were sleeping. That's why he developed sleep remedy. So, it's a proprietary blend, but it has four or five different things that naturally help your body fall asleep. So, if you go to melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy, the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you a discount on that.

Also, just as a teaser related to it, my magnesium threonate is coming. It's going to be the next supplement. Actually, by the time this airs, because this airs March 13, it might be out, which will be crazy. If its out, really quick education surrounding it. I didn't include magnesium threonate in the original Magnesium 8 blend because magnesium threonate is a special type of magnesium that specifically crosses the blood brain barrier, and it can have effects on relaxation and sleep and mood and memory. You need a high therapeutic dose to get those benefits. So, I couldn't realistically include it in the magnesium 8 blend. I could put it in there and say, "Oh, it has magnesium threonate, but you wouldn't actually be getting the benefits." Of course, I'm not going to do that. But then on top of that, some people might want to, for those benefits, like memory, mood, sleep, relaxation have a targeted specific magnesium for that. So, my magnesium threonate nightcap hopefully might be coming out around this time. Hopefully you're getting the email list updates at avalonx.us/emaillist. Yeah, all of that just, again, end with lifestyle and diet first. And how can listeners get your supplements, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: Probably the best way is to be on the general email list. So, if you go to www.cynthiathurlow.com on the main page, you can opt in. Very likely by the time this comes out, we will have started to talk about my next supplement, which will be Myo-inositol or to make it less of a mouthful inositol. It'll be another powder. We're really excited about it. I've gotten tremendous feedback. People are really looking forward to the next supplement in our line.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. We will put links to all of that in the show notes.

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Melanie Avalon: I think we have time for one more question. This was also one of our AMA questions. It's from Amy. She wants to know, "Can you talk about seeds that help with hormones?" I know seed cycling is a whole thing. I know, Cynthia, you talk about it in your book Intermittent Fasting Transformation. Do you have thoughts on seeds?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. The one thing that I can tell you, these are ways that you can help support your body in multiple ways, but there's no hard and fast research. I can't tell you that there's been a randomized controlled trial on this. This is just observational and so the way that it works is the first 14 days of your cycle, from the day you start menstruating up until ovulation, you can use both flaxseeds and pumpkin seeds. These are supposed to be supportive for estrogen metabolism. And then days 15 through 28, again, we're looking at this as kind of a broad, this is a perfect menstrual cycle. You can use sunflower seeds and sesame seeds and one to two tablespoons is generally what I recommend of the seeds. Understanding that these are healthy fats, but they are also calorically dense, so don't go overboard. If you're someone that's trying to lose weight, I would probably lean towards one tablespoon each. Usually, fresh ground is what you want, you don't want to buy previously ground flaxseeds. Flaxseeds are actually very delicate and as an example, they need to be refrigerated. I typically recommend keep them in your refrigerator and then grind them as you need them.

Seed cycling is probably a good thing to utilize. I do go into greater depth about these processes in the book, but this is kind of a different way of looking at it now. Women will always say, if I don't get a regular menstrual cycle or I'm in perimenopause and my cycles are really long, I always say cycle with the moon. If there's a full moon use that as day one. And that's when you would use pumpkin and flaxseeds from day one through 14 and then day 15 through 28, which would be from 14 days after the full moon until the next full moon, you would consume sunflower seeds and sesame seeds. If you're again looking to lose weight, I would be conservative with portions and really limit it to one tablespoon each.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I'm really interested by it. But. I have not done any of it, so I cannot speak to it.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I remember even back when I was still cycling, I was never organized enough. I was well [laughs] if I remember great. These are great healthy fats. You can add them to salads. You could conceivably put them in a smoothie and grind them down, but don't let it be a source of stress. Ultimately, understanding what's going on physiologically with your body is certainly important. There's no food source that's going to replace your hormones. I think that's important for people to understand. Unfortunately, I think there's been misinformation out there saying, "Oh, if you eat this food, it's going to support, it's going to be all you need for progesterone." It doesn't really work that way. You can consume foods that are beneficial in certain times of your cycle absolutely, but there's no food that's going to replace that hormone. So, I think it's important just to say that. I'm very much an optimist. I'm very much a person that respects people's personal decision making. But I just want to be transparent and say there's no significant research in this area, but I don't think these things are going to be harmful and it's a good way to get in some healthy fats.

Melanie Avalon: I love that. Well, I said that was our last one, but I think we have time for one more.

Cynthia Thurlow: Next question is from Kara. Subject is cayenne pepper and other spices. Hi, girls. My question is, "Is a hint of cayenne pepper, ginger powder, or cinnamon sprinkled in water still considered clean fasting? Will it break my fast? I'm new to intermittent fasting and have noticed that spicy flavors like cayenne pepper and ginger sprinkled in hot water curbs my habitual hunger cues when first starting out on IF, plus they each serve several health benefits to the body. However, I don't want to lose the effects of the fast, specifically fat loss." Thank you, Kara.

Melanie Avalon: All right, Kara, thank you so much for your questions. I know people are going to have different opinions on this. Did she include cinnamon? She did include cinnamon because I know a lot of people are big fans of cinnamon while fasting for reducing blood sugar and things like that. I personally find, just from a theoretical perspective, these very flavor intense things. I would not have them while fasting. So, the pepper, the ginger, the cinnamon, I would include them with your meals. I did go on a really intense research tangent in the past. I was really curious about the effects on these compounds on weight loss. The research was very interesting. There actually is a lot of research on pepper and ginger and stuff increasing metabolism. What's interesting is people will often make the takeaway. They'll be like, "Oh, but it doesn't realistically make a change." Because it only leads to X amount of calories extra burned and what is that doing but I think there is something to the modulating power of if you're making your meals rich in ginger and pepper and spice, then they're becoming a more thermogenic meal in general. So, I don't know that we can just look at it as like, "Oh, you're going to burn X amount of calories extra if you eat ginger or pepper." I don't think it necessarily manifests that way. I think it might be a more holistic effect of having more, like I said, thermogenic-type meals. But as far as it goes with the fasting, I personally consider them breaking the fast. I know again, like I said, I know a lot of people really like cinnamon for lowering blood sugar. That's just my thoughts.

That said [chuckles] to undo what I just said. I think if people find a fasting window that works for them and they have a diet and a lifestyle that's working for them and the food that's working for them, and maybe they're having these things during their fast and everything's just working. Like, who am I to say not to do that? You really have to find what works for you, even if that's not a "straight up," "clean fast," which I know might be of a controversial answer but Cynthia, what are your thoughts?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Kara, thank you for the great question. Based on my research and I do talk about this in the book, cinnamon in particular will improve insulin sensitivity, so I wouldn't worry about that. This is obviously Melanie and I will respectfully agree to disagree on this and based on the research that I have read; cayenne pepper and ginger can upregulate autophagy and so I wouldn't be fearful. The cayenne pepper that someone else has distilled and created a spice from. I think that one thing that I have learned is that when you're looking at research and you're considering things that can be very beneficial for, as you said, the hot water curbs your hunger cues and you're first starting out, more power too. If you're enjoying cayenne pepper and ginger because they can both be pretty spicy, I think that's certainly fine. From the context of wanting to help upregulate fat loss, I'm not per se sure that they're helping with that.

Certainly, if you're struggling to fast longer and you're finding that the ginger and cayenne pepper is helpful for that, I think that's absolutely fine. In fact, when it pertains to cinnamon, this is usually something I will recommend as people are transitioning from a fatty coffee or if they're transitioning from milk in their coffee, to understand that cinnamon will help change the flavor profile, much like if you add high quality salt like Redmond's to the coffee, it will help adjust the bitterness profile. Don't be afraid of bitter. Bitter is actually beneficial. It means there're a lot of polyphenols, there're a lot of plant-based compounds that have a ton of health benefits. So, from my perspective, I wouldn't worry about cinnamon and I certainly think if you're transitioning to fasting and you're struggling a bit with longer fasts, I don't think the cayenne pepper or ginger should be things that you need to worry about.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. To that point, I will say I think the majority of people, maybe Gin and I aside, I've seen a lot what you just said. I know Thomas DeLauer talks about it. I know Ari Whitten talks a lot about it, you talk about it. So, I think it's all really great. That was very educational and I really want people to find what works for them. So, more power to people if they're doing that and it's working and they're getting all those benefits that you discussed. So, thank you.

Cynthia Thurlow: You're welcome. Thanks for the great question.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own question for this show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will be @ifpodcast.com/episode308. Those show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. Then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. Yes, I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, keep the great questions coming. I'm really enjoying the variety that everyone is asking of us. It doesn't have to just be fasting related.

Melanie Avalon: Likewise, I cannot agree more. Okie dokie. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Mar 05

Episode 307: Mercury In Fish, Early Eating, Circadian Rhythm, Red Light Therapy, Microplastics, Fasting For Healing, Autophagy, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Early Vs Late-Night Eating: Contradictions, Confusions, And Clarity

Welcome to Episode 307 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get free Chicken Nuggets for a Year and $20 off!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free Chicken Nuggets For A Year And $20 Off!

SAFECATCH: Go to www.safecatch.com To Get 20% Off With Code MELANIEAVAON Through The End Of March!

20:25 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

22:30 - Listener Q&A: chris - Circadian rhythm

32:10 - Listener Q&A: Amy - AMA Question

38:40 - Listener Q&A: Chrissy - IF and Surgical Recovery

45:00 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast!

46:30 - Listener Q&A: Ann - Autophagy question

The effect of fasting or calorie restriction on autophagy induction: A review of the literature

Training state and skeletal muscle autophagy in response to 36 h of fasting

Physiological responses to acute fasting: implications for intermittent fasting programs

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 307 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor- patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 307 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I am good. Are you struggling with jet lag?

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] I actually felt great yesterday, but because my youngest was up multiple times last night with a GI bug, I think that's actually why I don't feel great this morning. I don't think it's as much jet lag as much as it's just interrupted sleep multiple times at night is never good for feeling as mentally sharp as you normally are. I can't even string my words together properly.

Melanie Avalon: I'm grateful for this. I feel like the more and more interviews I do, I feel like more and more people are focusing on the importance of sleep. I feel like every interview I do, if the question comes up of, like, what is the most important thing, it's often sleep.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, absolutely. And it's funny, I got back from London on Sunday and the first thing I did was I ate a good-sized dinner and literally two hours later just did an early bedtime and I felt great on Monday. I got light exposure, I went to the gym. I think it's a combination of solo parenting and then my older son and I were both up dealing with my younger son not feeling so great last night. My kids are pretty independent as teenagers, but when they're making a lot of noise it's hard to ignore them.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I can imagine. I cannot be a parent. That's my thoughts on that. I have two really random things to talk about. One is, have you heard of a brand called Safe Catch?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you have? Nice. They reached out to me just randomly. They wanted to send me some samples. I'm so obsessed. I wanted to share them with listeners. So, for listeners, they are a brand that makes canned and those little packet-- I don't know what they're called. The packets that are flexible, like packets, I guess, bags of both tuna and salmon. And their main thing is that they extensively test for mercury levels, which I just think is so important because I'm really concerned about the levels of mercury in fish that we're eating, especially as a huge fish lover. It's great for the salmon, which salmon does tend to be lower in mercury anyways. But with tuna, I think it's like a really big problem because the levels in tuna can vary so wildly. So, this is a way for you to get your tuna and not worry about mercury.

I'm looking at their website and they said that their Elite Wild Tuna is 10 times stricter levels than the FDA mercury limit. Their Wild Albacore Tuna is two and a half times stricter than the FDA mercury limit, and then their salmon is below the mercury limit as well. I'm not finding where they said how far below, but I will have to find some literature about it and put it in the show notes. But in any case, so I just wanted to share that with listeners as a nice resource. So, that is @safecatch.com and it's funny, they told me about this, like, back in October or November. I haven't shared it yet and so my coupon had expired, but I got them to reactivate it. That's why I have to share this now because it only goes through the end of March, but the code MELANIE AVALON will get you 20% off, which is amazing, so stock up. Again, this is something that you could really stock up on because it's cans and those little pouch things. The word is escaping me. Do you eat canned tuna or salmon?

Cynthia Thurlow: Not a ton and I'll be completely transparent. I think after my high mercury levels, probably seven, eight years ago, the one thing that my functional medicine team and I have talked about is to eat less fish. And so, for me, I eat fish but very sparingly. I may only eat fish once or twice a month for full disclosure. But it's not that I don't like fish. I just don't want to expose myself to the amount of mercury that I was before. And even in our house, we do have some canned tuna if there's no other protein options, but it's never really my favorite.

If I'm going to have fish now, I'll usually pick the less predatory fish, that it's less of a concern. But I certainly, I mean, I love tuna. I'll be completely transparent, but I think it's allowed me to have more of a Wildatarian diet, to have a more variety of proteins and I think that's probably been beneficial for me. Our family, we definitely, during the pandemic, realized that we could lean into some Wildatarian meats and we found several that we really enjoyed, so more variety with land animals than water fish.

Melanie Avalon: I'm happy to hear you say that. I'm not happy that you went through the mercury experience, but I'm happy that you understand the issues with it. I really think it's a really big problem that most people are just not aware of. That's why I'm really excited about this brand, especially with so many people eating canned tuna and like I said tuna in particular because there's like, the list of fish that tend to be low mercury, which is-- so shellfish, tend to be the lowest. So that's like scallops and salmon. That's one of the reasons I eat so many scallops. And then after that, I mean, it's really like salmon. And actually, farm salmon tends to be lower than wild salmon, that I actually don't eat wild salmon for that reason. Tilapia tends to be low and then rainbow trout tends to be low, but beyond that, there really aren't. I get really nervous about fish, so I think this is a great resource for people.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. I think that it's nice that there are companies that are becoming more savvy because there are marketing opportunities to connect with individuals that are going to go the extra mile. I know for us if we're going to buy fish, we usually will swing through Whole Foods or there's a fishmonger in the area that I live in, so we'll usually go through there. My husband's super picky and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that one of his hobbies is deep sea fishing. So, he's really picky, we have to buy the day off if we're going to eat it and therefore, we don't eat it often because it tends to be a little more high maintenance. And for me, I'm no longer in Washington DC, so things aren't as close. So, having to plan the extra amount of time in the car to go get fish, I'm like, I have to really really want it.

And generally, that's become less and less common, especially because my kids, with the exception of shrimp, they really don't love shellfish or seafood, maybe other than lobster tails. For them, they're not big fish people. We've gotten to the point where we've made it so many times and they're picking at it, and then they're not finishing it, and then they're destroying the refrigerator after dinner because they're still looking for more food. And it's just made it so much easier. So, I tend to order it when I'm out if I know that I'm in a restaurant where I'm going to get high quality.

Melanie Avalon: Nice. Yeah, that's a whole tangent. If you go down the research rabbit hole about fish fraud, it is shocking, it's shocking. They've done tests and the amount of fish that's just not what it says it is at normal stores, like, at normal supermarkets, is shocking, like mislabeled. So, even then, you can't. You don't even know if you're getting what you're getting. I did just check and the Safe Catch fish is wild caught. So, that would be some wild caught salmon. Yeah, that was my tangent on fish. I had something else, but I can save it. I can save it for next time. Anything from you before we jump in?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, other than there are many reasons why London is one of my favorite cities and the food is definitely part of that. By far one of my favorite foodie cities. I think a lot of people don't realize the diversity in the food options that are there. My cousin, I jokingly told her that she needs to be my wife because everything, every restaurant she picked out, that we ate out for lunch and dinner was amazing. And we even had Russian food, we had Indian food. I mean, we had dim sum and we had everything you could imagine. And we did not have one less than stellar meal. It was pretty awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I feel like that's something you don't normally hear about London or England.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, London shopping is, like, second. I mean, I tell people all the time there's nothing in the United States. It's as good as some places in Europe. And, well, technically, that's the UK. But yeah, I mean, it's next level. I just think it's a huge financial economy and it just reminds me of why I love being there on multiple levels. I love the architecture, I love the food, and I just love everything about London. It's a great city.

Melanie Avalon: What was your favorite thing that you did tourist wise?

Cynthia Thurlow: Because I've been there so many times as has my cousin, for us it was more about just spending time together and so every day it was kind of a similar thing. We allowed ourselves to kind of sleep in, which is easy given the fact there's a five-hour time difference and our bodies thought it was the middle of the night and we were getting up. But I would say experiencing definitely the food, the cuisine, I would say being able to shop with another woman as opposed to shopping with my husband and kids where no one wants to go shopping. Let me be clear, I did not buy anything for myself while I was there.

I was definitely kind of gaming the ideas of, “Okay, when I come back to Europe or when I go to Europe later in the year, I'm going to make some purchases, but trying to kind of price things out.” Because whether people know this or not, sometimes the exchange rate works in your favor and it makes sense to purchase some things and sometimes it does not. And so, it didn't make sense to buy things there. I can wait till I'm in Portugal in April.

So, I would say the favorite things we did was just connecting and just exercising and just being outside. It was 50 degrees. It was super warm for that time of year. All the sightseeing we've done, all the big sites before. Westminster Abbey is probably one of my favorite things to do in London. Just having the opportunity to know that we didn't have to rush from one historical place to another because we've been there enough. I have a favorite hotel that I stay in and actually ironically enough her and her family prefer staying there. And so, it's a great part of the city where you can just walk around and everyone's very nice.

And then, ironically, I was watching a movie on the way home and it was set in the same hotel we stayed in. I was like, “Oh, my gosh, that's total validation that we stayed in the right place.”

Melanie Avalon: What movie?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's called Burnt, has Bradley Cooper in it.

Melanie Avalon: Is he a chef?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. Okay. Yeah, I saw that, but it's set in the same hotel we're in. I didn't even realize that until I started watching. I was like, “Oh, my God, that's our hotel.” [laughs] I was like, “What a coincidence.” But it was wonderful. It's just nice. I mean, for anyone that's listening that has kids and people you're responsible for, it's just nice to have, like, four days where you just do what you want to do and just enjoy the company of someone that you love. And my cousin is like the sister I never had, so we can talk about all the things and enjoy each other's company. And the irony is, we brought some of the same clothes. We didn't even realize that we have similar taste, which we knew. But as she was pulling stuff out and hanging in the closet, I was like, “Oh, my God, I have that same sweater with me. Oh, my gosh, I have that same jacket.” I'm not even realizing it. Just togetherness and time away from the family was a lot of fun.

Melanie Avalon: Nice. One of the books I'm reading right now is called The Fun Habit. I'm really excited to interview the author, but he talks all about this, the importance of having fun [chuckles] for the actual life and health benefits, how we disregard it as something that adults don't do or isn't important. But he makes the case it's just as important as so many other things in life.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. And I think a lot of people travel. There are vacations like this and then there are vacations where you're only in a place for a certain amount of time. You've never been there, you want to see this attraction and that attraction and eat this place and not eat that place. For us, it was like we saw a play, we went out for a fabulous dinner, we had an amazing lunch. I mean Book of Mormon.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, the musical?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. I've never seen that before and it was quite funny. So, if listeners are not familiar with that, it was created by the same people that did South Park, which explains the humor in the movie. And I didn't actually realize that until right before we’re leaving and my 15-year-old shared that with me and I actually was like, thank you for sharing that with me because the whole time I was like, “Oh my God, this is like a South Park episode," little outrageous.

Melanie Avalon: I listened to it when it came out, so I was young and it kind of scandalized me. I thought was very-- It's like "Oh."

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's a little raunchy. My kids were like, “Well, what does that word mean?” And I was like, “Well, a little, if I were of that religion, I would be definitely offended, but I'm not Mormon.” But it was entertaining, and I love going to theater, and it was just nice to be in the London theater district and enjoy a really nice dinner and just all that togetherness. And I agree with you, I think a lot of times people feel like they have to plan out every single minute of a vacation. I'm a huge advocate of some things being planned and then other things not being planned.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

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So, to start things off, we have a question from Chris and the subject is circadian rhythm and Chris says, “Hi, I'm listening to you and Cynthia in your latest podcast. It's always refreshing to listen to you both answer a reader's question. I just finished reading the Circadian Code by Dr. Satchin Panda. I was thinking I came onto it via one of your earlier podcasts. Anyway, I'm hoping that you and Cynthia have either read or will read this book. I feel like he really advocates for everybody to eat early in the day. And I know you say you like to eat later. My mom is like this. She works best at night, she's 86 and still cooks everything three times a day for her and my father, he has Alzheimer's. I keep wanting to tell her to stop eating at a certain time, but I know we're probably all different with cortisol. The point I want to make is I'd love to hear you do a podcast about their circadian code ideology. Maybe you have and I just haven't come across it yet. He makes a strong case for everyone to time their meals early in the day. I've been doing it for a week now and I noticed my hunger levels have definitely dropped off like you said they would. I was rather surprised. I have been intermittent fasting for five years now and I stalled out on weight loss, especially because of COVID. But since I have been following his ideology of having breakfast as the main meal and my last meal at seven or eight hours later, I've had way more energy on way less food. I don't snack between my two meals and I've been realizing how much better this works for me. I'm used to waiting until 12 or 1 to have my first meal.

Now I make sure I have a high protein breakfast with salmon and eggs or whatever meat I have around, and I always like to do a protein shake then, but I up my protein since I work out. I've noticed I don't need to worry as much as I have more energy. I'm still doing protein shakes now and then, but not like I was. I'm also noticing that I am intuitively eating more now. And I also noticed that when I finally have a piece of fruit like the typical blueberries or kiwi, it tastes like candy. It seems like my eating is way more intuitive now. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Keep up the good work with Cynthia. You guys are awesome.”

He or she because Chris could be either way also says “Since reading his book, I am now more focused on time-restricted eating with a window of seven to eight hours. I love cutting my eating time off at 05:00 PM. And he also advocates making the same meal times, but sometimes that just doesn't work. So, I try to focus on my eating window and my non-snacking in between my two meals. I just can't believe how eating this big breakfast first thing when I get up in the morning has given me way more energy and then my second meal is way lighter what I eat because I'm just not as hungry. Again, I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts and Cynthia's thoughts.”

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Chris, thank you for your question. I am very familiar with this book. In fact, I'm sitting at my desk in my office and I can see it. Literally it's across from my vision. I'm a huge fan of eating aligned with our chronobiology, and for most people, obviously there are exceptions, most people actually do better with insulin sensitivity earlier in the day. I would imagine if you have parents that are in their 80s that you are at a minimum middle aged. And so, I do encourage individuals that are middle aged to really lean into eating when we are most insulin sensitive and the average middle-aged person is losing insulin sensitivity as they are aging. I'm not at all surprised that you feel great really having a larger breakfast and then eating a second meal seven to eight hours later. I think you're really harnessing the power of your circadian rhythms and circadian biology.

This is actually something that, from my perspective, I may not eat eight hours after my first meal, but I'm definitely closing my feeding window before dark and that really works well for me. Ironically enough, my cousin who was with me who's also a middle-aged person, we were laughing about the fact that we stopped eating by 5 or 6 o'clock at night. That has worked really well for us. I just want to encourage you to continue to leaning into things that make you feel good and as it pertains to your parents, the adage of the old, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. That applies in many ways, I think for some people it becomes very much a social opportunity for them if they're eating three times a day and sitting down with their loved ones.

I think sometimes it's been my experience and most of my elderly patients and clients really aren't eating a lot of food. She may not be eating large boluses of food, but may just enjoy the social aspects. But if she's not open or receptive to eating less frequently, I think you just have to respect what works for them at this time in their lives. I do know that when my grandmother was getting older, she got to a point where she said that she just ate two small meals a day. That's really all she was hungry for. So much of this is really honoring our own biology and physiology and bio individuality. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I agree with all of that, obviously. So, you've read the book.

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: I'm actually really surprised that I haven't read this book. I've listened to a lot of interviews that he's done. Have you had him on your show?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not, I have not. It's funny, I think because he's really like a true researcher. I always feel like the researchers are the ones that are sometimes harder to get on podcasts. I think about Lisa Mosconi is a good example of that. I keep saying eventually I'm going to have her on the podcast. She wrote XX Brain in case listeners are not familiar with her. But yeah, I actually was talking about some of his most recent research in two medical conferences I spoke at last week. That was really validating, eating less frequently and so I'm definitely pretty aligned with a lot of his methodology and research. Obviously, bio individuality really plays in a lot here. I think if you're a younger individual and you have more insulin sensitivity, you can probably eat later into the day. But I find that most of my female patients and clients don't do well if they have a large bolus of food and then try to go to bed two hours later.

Melanie Avalon: I really want to try to reach out to him. I really like his research as well. And I agree with everything that you said. Again, I've talked about this at length before. I wish I was an earlier eating person. I wish that worked for me, I really, really do. It just doesn't for me personally. I do think there is an aspect of individuality. So, I do think some people naturally do better eating earlier and some people naturally do better eating later. When I say later, I don't mean necessarily what I do, which is really late. I've talked about this a lot as well. I wrote a long blog post about this. If you go to melanieavalon.com/eatingtiming, I tried to really look at all the studies and see what the takeaway was for me about when it seemed like objectively people should be eating and it did seem to be eating during--

For me, this was just my perspective. It did seem to be eating during daytime hours and my takeaway was probably more later afternoon to early evening just based on pure hormonal release of insulin, ghrelin, leptin. That's what I was mostly looking at. So, like hormones related to eating and hunger, when were they naturally ebbing and flowing just based on the time. What I think is really amazing about this Chris is that it sounds like you were doing something different. And I think it's super awesome that you were open to trying this and that it did work for you. That's super amazing. It seems like it was the thing that you were talking about being on a weight stall, and this was something that helped you push through a plateau that you were on. It sounds like you're assimilating food better probably since you're feeling the need for less protein even. Not to say that we should focus on less protein, but it sounds like you eating this way is probably helping you better assimilate and utilize the food.

I do encourage people to find the rhythm that works for them. For a lot of people, it possibly is earlier. If people find a rhythm that really does work for them and it is later and they're happy and it's working in their life and they're sleeping and they're working and it's working with their weight and their health. I also don't want people to completely over freak out and think they have to be eating earlier as well. But yes, so, to do list, to read that book and reach out to him.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's a good book and it's not very thick. Right now, I'm trying to get through Ari Whitten's book, Eat for Energy and then I have to get through Dave Asprey's because I'm interviewing both of them next week. I'm like, “All right.” It's Super Bowl weekend this weekend, and I think I will be by myself because my husband's going on a snowboarding trip with his buddies, and I think my teenagers are both going to friends' houses. This is going to be a first. I'm reframing this, Melanie, as the universe is giving me an opportunity to do more prep for the week. I'm like, “Okay, I'm not going to look at this negatively. This is all a positive. My kids are in a good place. My husband's going away with his friends. I just got back from a trip. This is all good.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Does Dave have a new book coming out or is this for his other book?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, yeah, he has a new book. I think he's on the every other year plan, which is pretty prolific when you think about it. I'm still mulling additional book ideas run in my head, but yeah, he's like a workhorse. [laughs] He manages to do that because as you know the book writing process is not like instantaneous. It takes time and I think he must be working on the next book, when the next book comes out it's amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. That's really exciting. I really liked Ari's book as well.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, good to know. It's literally sitting underneath my phone to remind me that that's the next thing to work on.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, he was great too. So, well, very exciting. Shall we go on to our next question, which is a lingering question from our AMAs.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. This is from Amy. Amy says, “Can you use the Joovv for 10 minutes all over your body or only 10 minutes a day on a part of your body?” This is a very good question for Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I did specifically put this in today's episode because we are sponsored in part today by Joovv, so I thought we might as well answer a question related to it. So, for people who are not familiar, Joovv makes red and near infrared light therapy devices. I've been using mine for years. I really don't know what I would do without it. So, a few different things. One, it's funny because they sort of made a mode for this when they released the newer version, but I've been doing this from the beginning, which is I actually use it for ambient light. I have it on pretty much 24/7, but not super close. Well, when I'm at my desk, it is little bit close to me, but I just find that the red light really helps counteract a lot of the blue light that we're exposed to. It's wonderful waking up in the morning and then in the evening I use it to light my whole apartment at night.

So, speaking of circadian rhythm and sleep, I find it so helpful for that. But the main reason people are using it is for targeted treatment. It helps with inflammation, muscle soreness, skin, so many things. Her question is basically, can you use it for 10 minutes all over your body or only a part of your body? You can do your whole body in a day. So, the answer would be you could do 10 minutes all over your body and if you have one of the larger units, like the Solo, then you could do more of a full body treatment at once. I do have the Solo, but then I have the Mini, which would be more like your face or a smaller area. They have the Go, which is like very small areas that's handheld. I take that while traveling, which is awesome, but it's really a good investment, especially if you're going, like I go to Restore Hyper Wellness. That's where I do my cryotherapy.

I have a daily membership there which, by the way, I really recommend Restore. They're getting bigger and bigger, so they're in a lot of cities and they have cryotherapy, they have sauna, and they have red light. That would be a good way to try red light to see if you like it. They have compression suits for your legs. And I think the daily membership, if you're going every day, is definitely worth it. But what I was going to say is, time wise, it's just so much more cost effective and time effective for me to have the devices at home. It really does pay for itself. I'm just thinking about that phrase, "It really does pay for itself." Like, is that actually a true statement ever if you pay for something, [chuckles] can it actually ever pay for itself? I don't know.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I think it depends on what it is. I sometimes and this drives my husband crazy. So, this is like triggering when I'll say, “Oh, cost per wear.” Like, if I buy a pair of jeans or a nice handbag or a nice pair of shoes, I'm like but if I'm going to wear this every day or three or four times a week and I'm going to wear it for years, then the cost per wear makes sense versus something you wear once and it sits in your closet. So, I think it's the same thing, as an example, I use my PEMF mat every single day and love it. But if I bought something like that and only used it occasionally, then it might not make sense. So, I think it really depends on the individual. Like, I love, we have Restore Hyper Wellness too, and I think they do a fantastic job.

I use them for IVs in particular around travel because the hydration, you just can't stay hydrated enough when you're traveling, I don't care how much water and electrolytes you consume. But, Melanie, this is a great question for Melanie, because I don't have a Joovv device, but I keep saying I'm going to buy one, so maybe this now the impetus to go buy one.

Melanie Avalon: You should definitely get, like I literally can't understand my life without it. I mean, I can, but so the red light in the morning and the evening is a game changer for me. And then the light is so therapeutic. Like, when I'm sitting at my desk, it just feels good, like it just feels good. And then with a targeted treatment, I find it very, very effective with muscle pain and things like that. So, yeah, big fan. And I will agree with the cost per wear thing.

I interviewed Matt Simon for his book A Poison Like No Other, all about microplastics and he talks all about the role of plastics in our clothing, which blew my mind. I didn't realize that most clothing is largely plastic. I didn't realize just how pervasive plastic is. I think I had way too much of-- it was in a box in my head that only stuff that was obviously plastic was plastic. I didn't realize that basically everything has plastic. I mean most things have plastic. And so, clothing actually sheds a ton of plastic. And so, you can tell your husband this. He makes the case that one of the best things we can do for clothing is to buy really high-quality outfits and wear them a lot. They stop shedding plastic. So, the more you wear them, the less plastic you're shedding.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and it's interesting. My cousin was saying that she wants to have a capsule wardrobe and so I was reminding her that one thing I've made a very deliberate effort in the past 6 to 12 months is to be ruthless about not buying things I don't need. So, as an example, I'm a sweater wearer, I love sweaters, I love to be warm in the winter and I literally have bought no sweaters this year. So, it's like I'm definitely curtailing what I'm wearing. The thing I was most surprised about was that a lot of athletic wear, like, Athleta as an example, I don't have a lot of Athleta in my wardrobe, but a lot of those athletic companies, most of what you're wearing is plastics, which is disturbing because you're thinking about, you're sweating in athletic wear, those sports bras and other things. I was like, “Oh, that's a bummer.”

Melanie Avalon: It's really, really, crazy, the percentage of and it's even like normal clothes that you wouldn't think are plastic. It made me feel a lot better because I really do wear almost the same thing every day. So, I was like, well, doing something good for the environment. So, that whole tangent, but yeah, to answer the question, Amy, you can use it all over your body and you can listen to the ad in today's show about Joovv. But we do have a coupon. It gives you a discount if you go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST. So yeah, okie dokie. Shall we go on to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: So, we have a question from Chrissy. The subject is IF and surgical recovery. And Chrissy says, Hi ladies, I've listened to every show and I finally have a question. I've been practicing IF with a Whole Foods diet for one year now. I've seen so many improvements including elimination of daily headaches, insomnia, joint pain, and even anxiety. The most surprising improvement was my asthma. Before IF, I took eight inhalations of steroids daily along with frequent use of my rescue inhaler and nebulizer. This year I only needed one daily puff of steroid during peak allergy season in July and August and I never need rescue meds anymore. I made this change to lose weight and was shocked with all the improvements. I've sustained a 35-pound weight loss for the first time ever and I'm thrilled to be back in size 4 pants at 44 years of age.

Now, for my question, "I've been experiencing a lot of pelvic pain over the last six months and ultrasound shows fibroids and a potentially suspicious uterine growth. I'll have a DNC.” What is a DNC?

Cynthia Thurlow: Dilation and curettage. Usually, they go in and they scrape the inside of the uterus, take a biopsy. It's a very routine procedure, but still scary because you're having a minor medical procedure.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Is that similar to a I cannot say the word, a col--

Cynthia Thurlow: Colposcopy, that's different.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's different, okay. “So, I'll have a DNC with biopsy next month and if it's at all worrisome, I will likely opt for a hysterectomy. With all of the improvements I've seen, I truly believe diet can heal. What is the best way to use nutrition and fasting to help myself heal quickly if I do need the surgery? I used ADF to lose the weight and one or two meals a day to maintain depending on my hunger cues. Thank you and much love.”

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Chrissy, thank you so much for sharing all of the success you've had. And really, this is a great example of the reduction in inflammation that you experienced with fasting versus the eat to stoke your metabolism, eat multiple snacks and many meals a day. I'm sorry to hear that you've been experiencing some pelvic pain and hopefully this will turn out to be no issues. Just have your DNC and a biopsy that will end up being benign. I would say that from my perspective, the best way to use nutrition and fasting to help heal from surgery is first and foremost an anti-inflammatory diet. So, really removing the most inflammatory foods, which are gluten grains, dairy, sugar, alcohol at least for the short term, something that's a Whole30 evoking process and a Whole30 for anyone that's listening is really not designed to be done in perpetuity. It really is just a 30-day anti-inflammatory diet.

It makes it easy because unlike years ago when I used to recommend it to patients, there are now Whole30-approved barbecue sauce and other things that just make your life so much easier. So, it's really just eating protein, healthy vegetables, fruit, and then just cutting out the most inflammatory foods. The other thing is, I'm not a huge fan of over fasting, especially because it sounds, like now you're at a happy place in terms of your weight. So, I would say if you're doing fasting, I would still try to get in two meals a day so that you're hitting your protein macros. Protein is certainly going to be important in a postoperative period, even in a minor surgery. Hopefully you won't need a hysterectomy. From my perspective, it sounds like you really laid the foundation to be able to heal. And I would say the additional things that I would consider doing is removing additional inflammatory foods if they're even still part of your diet and then also considering making sure you're getting your protein needs met on a daily basis. And so, I would say at least 40 to 50 g of protein in a meal, so close to 100 grams of protein a day would be a good starting point. Melanie, what are your thoughts?

Melanie Avalon: I think we've talked about this on the show before. I had gone and looked at all the studies that I could find on fasting and surgery and there were some pretty interesting ones about the benefits of fasting, more so leading up to surgery and then affecting, it was more stuff like post operative nausea and stuff like that it was looking at. I agree with what you were saying about, it sounds like she's at a good place right now with her fasting and so, I wouldn't overdo the fasting just because of the surgery and everything. You definitely-- I mean Cynthia, hit on all the points. Like you want to make sure with surgery that you have adequate nutrition for your body to recover and heal and the anti-inflammatory aspect of that is so, so important. I would immediately, surrounding the surgery, make sure you're getting the meals to recover and making sure that they are the anti-inflammatory meals and just doing what's been working, not going overly crazy.

So, separate from probably not surrounding the surgery because there are contraindications with surgery. But when you're beyond all of this, I was just thinking while reading this, if you do still have allergy issues and you've had things like fibroids, so serrapeptase that I take, that is amazing for allergies that personally for me makes allergy season-- For me it's not summer, it's spring. I just react to all the grass, just wipes me out and I don't have any issues when I take serrapeptase. So, that might be something that you want to try Chrissy, so that's my, again, not immediately surrounding the surgery, because I think there're often contraindications for that. But when you are on the other side of it, so you can get that @avalonx.us and the coupon code MELANIE AVALON will get you 10% off or you can get a 20% off code if you text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. So that's AVALONX to 877-861-8318. But either way, wishing you the best with your surgery. Normally we have a date. I'm not sure when this came in, but I am sure it will all go wonderfully. And it's really great that you are super aware of the role of diet in all this because so many people just are not.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. This is from Anne and this is an autophagy question. “Hi, I've read that autophagy doesn't begin until one reaches a 24 to 48-hour fast. I cannot go that long. I've been doing 19:5 or 20:4 meaning fasting for 19 to 20 hours with a four or five-hour feeding window. I wanted to know if you believe that we reach autophagy in those fasting hours. Thank you," Anne.

Melanie Avalon: All right, Anne, thank you so much for your question. I might reserve the right to have a part one and then I'm going to do some more research for a part two because honestly, when I sat down to research this, I was like, “Oh, I'll find some information pretty quickly. Not so much. So, this was something I'd been wanting to look into especially because Peter Attia talks about this a lot and he's the last that I heard. He thinks that you don't really get any measurable bump in autophagy with just general everyday fasting. I found one pretty good review, but it was from 2018 and it's called The effect of fasting or calorie restriction on autophagy induction: A review of the literature. That was a review up until 2018. Just a little fun fact really quickly. That one I could only find the abstract.

If that happens to you, search for the name of the title-- Well, A, if that happens to you, ResearchGate often has the full studies. I love that website. If they don't have it, which they didn't, if you search for the title and then add PDF to it, you can sometimes find, well, A, the actual study or B, the submitted manuscript. So that's what I found. That's how I was able to read the whole thing. But in any case, what was really interesting about that review, and again this was 2018, so about five years ago, it went deep into autophagy.

There're actually three main types of autophagy. For example, there's macroautophagy, microautophagy, and chaperone-mediated autophagy and basically what they have to do is just how that process actually happens, but macroautophagy is the one we most often think of and it was nice to read it because I feel like I've been talking too casually about autophagy. Like whenever I talk about it, I'm like, “Oh yeah, it's like a cellular renewal process, it breaks down old proteins,” and I kind of stop there. But reading this through made me realize again just how important this process is. So, it helps with so many health-related issues. It's necessary for cellular function.

The reason I think it's important to draw attention to that is I think people sometimes think that we only get this autophagy process when we're fasting, which is not the case. It's literally happening 24/7, literally on some level. I mean if you think about it, when cells create, they get broken and they have waste products and our body has to get rid of that. Now, the level to which you get rid of it and the level to which you get proper autophagy levels might affect how good you are at that process and how much recovery you get from that. So, it's nice to do things that can support autophagy, but it is happening all the time. So that's a little myth to dispel.

What's really interesting is a lot of cellular states can create it. That includes calorie restriction and fasting which are two ways that can potentially potently activate it, that also have health benefits beyond that compared to things like, so even like infection can create it, oxidative stress can encourage it. So, I found that really, really interesting. But in any case, one of the main benefits for autophagy is the effects on neurodegenerative diseases because it can help with that protein build up that can affect our neurons and create neurodegenerative issues.

Here's the thing that study with the review, the majority of the studies I was looking at and there were a lot, but they were all in rodents and I honestly don't know how that correlates to humans for autophagy just because of how the circadian rhythm of a rodent compares to a human. I don't know if we see the same activation, especially since a 24-hour fast in a rodent is like a huge fast in a human. So, the studies in autophagy in humans are actually pretty hard to find.

The majority of the ones I could find were in muscle autophagy in humans and one of the main ones I was looking at was called Training state and skeletal muscle autophagy in response to 36 h of fasting. It did look at fasting up to 36 hours. So, 2 hours, 12 hours, 24 hours, 36 hours and what was interesting is it actually depended on whether or not the person was trained or not. It had different responses. So, on top of just you as a person fasting whether or not you're trained might affect your autophagy response. But one of the main things that encourages autophagy is the activation of AMPK and the downregulation of mTOR.

So, mTOR is activated by food and nutrition and protein. It's a growth stimulus. And then the AMPK pathway is activated from fasting and calorie restriction and it activates longevity pathways and so it helps activate autophagy. So, even if there's not a lot of studies on autophagy, there are a lot of studies on AMPK activation, which does seem to happen while fasting and a dose response curve.

So, I also found a newer study, a journal article called Physiological responses to acute fasting: implications for intermittent fasting programs. And I'm really sad because I could not find the full article. All I could do was the abstract and this was a November 2021 study. But something important to note was that the end of it says that a single fast demonstrated the ability to alter glucose, so that's blood sugar and lipid, that's fat metabolism within the initial 24 hours. But variations in protein metabolism appear to be minimal within this time frame and then here comes the key. The ability of an acute fast to elicit significant increases in autophagy is still unknown. That was really what I walked away with. Going back to that earlier review I talked about, I found it so interesting and actually a little bit frustrating because it was a very very deep dive, like a very deep dive. It's very long.

It goes into autophagy for all the different individual areas like autophagy in the kidneys, autophagy in the muscle, autophagy in the heart. The majority of the studies are rodent studies. And then at the end, it makes the conclusion that fasting does upregulate autophagy. They're kind of saying that the way it reads is that that applies to humans. But then the confusing thing is the majority of the studies are looking at are rodents. I don't really know how that extends to humans. And so, it's hard to reach to the conclusion that it's a very vague conclusion. I think it's a very vague idea that a lot of people have about fasting and autophagy and I think we just don't know.

Like, I think this 2021 study, which was actually published in 2022, I guess it was published online in 2021 and in the journal in 2022, I think their summary about it's unknown. That's what I came away with. We don't actually know with fasting, in humans how much it's increasing autophagy. All of that said, I'll go back to what I said earlier about we do know autophagy is linked to AMPK. We know that AMPK is activated by fasting and that the longer you fast, you're probably getting more of that stimulus. So, I would say that probably the longer you fast, you're getting more autophagy. All of that to say, I wouldn't stress about it too much. I would just know that fasting is creating these beneficial health effects. But I wouldn't do fasting specifically to activate autophagy if that makes sense. If that's the case, I don't know, but you might need to do a longer fast to get like really deep autophagy, kind of like Peter Attia says. That was a long answer. What are your thoughts, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, thank you for that beautiful explanation. I just want to take that and just say that there are other ways to induce autophagy in the body that are not just related to fasting because I think oftentimes people forget that there are other ways to upregulate autophagy and one of those is exercise. And I think a lot about high intensity interval training as being one. I think about low-carb diets which can be helpful. I think about hot and cold exposure. I know we spoke earlier about Joovv and that's a different type of red light therapy, but I always say exposure to extreme, so extremes of temperature can be very helpful. I remind people that it's funny, there's one podcast that I really like. It's always like short little 15, 20-minute clips. And so, Mike Mutzel whose High Intensity Health and he was talking about would you rather fast really long or just do HIIT or just do these other things. So, just something to consider that there are other ways to upregulate this process beyond fasting. Even hyperbaric oxygen therapy has been shown to induce autophagy and there're even foods that can help induce autophagy, like in the brain. I think about things that are polyphenol rich, so coffee and green tea. I also think about MCT oil, ginger and turmeric, even sulforaphane, there's good research on that as well, so just something to consider.

Obviously, I'm coming at it from a different direction, but I know that for myself, I don't like really long fasts and I think after my experience, it's almost four years ago now and it's getting less and less triggered by this. But doing long fast is just not going to be part of my fasting practice given how long I was unable to eat. So, from my perspective, if you feel like you really struggled to get to 18, 19, 20 hours, don't white-knuckle it, like no one listening to this podcast, that is never the message that we are trying to send. We want there to be common sense. We want you to have success with using this strategy or other types of strategies, but we definitely want you to be cognizant of where you feel like your limitations are and there's no shame in that whatsoever.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. Yeah, even coffee, oh my goodness. Even coffee has been shown to upregulate it and can't believe I forgot berberine. How did I forget that. So, my most recent supplement berberine, it's actually a potent activator of both AMPK and autophagy, which is super awesome. So, its main benefit that people take berberine for is blood sugar control. So, it can rival the effects of metformin for its blood sugar lowing potential and its ability to reduce HbA1c. It can help with the gut microbiome. There’s actually, I found, an entire paper dedicated to its effect on AMPK, which was an autophagy, which is super awesome. So, you can also get that @avalonx.us and those coupon codes will work as well.

But yeah, I'm glad, Cynthia, that you drew attention to that there are a lot of ways to stimulate it, and I wish I could find it, but literally there's a study and I just loved it because it literally said, autophagy is a process happening 24/7 in the body, which I think a lot of people don't quite realize.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and I think it's interesting because both Thomas DeLauer and Mike speak about this a lot. So, even with my team, I've reminded them that we need to make sure that we're offering different options because there are some people that they would have to white-knuckle it to get to a 24-hour fast. There're other ways to evoke these processes in the body without having to white-knuckle it. I'll be completely transparent and say that I loathe being cold, but that just tells me that I need to be cold more often. So, [laughs] you're doing cryotherapy has become something I do once or twice a week because that's obviously what my body needs. If it's the thing I don't want to be doing, it's generally the thing I need to be doing.

Melanie Avalon: That's something that happened since we've talked. I interviewed Thomas DeLauer.

Cynthia Thurlow: I love Thomas. He's so smart.

Melanie Avalon: He was really, really great.

Cynthia Thurlow: Super smart. He's such a smart guy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He likes [chuckles] kind of what I just did with the studies. He loves diving. He really follows the literature. I was really impressed. Like, I asked him questions and he just had all these studies ready and waiting.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I'm excited. I'll see him in less than two weeks. We're both speaking at the same event. He's speaking on Friday, I'm speaking on Saturday, but I'll be able to see him again. He's incredibly-- I think it's a really good example of a guy who's really well respected in the space and so knowledgeable. And I tell him all the time, he'll pull a study that I hadn't even seen and I'm like, “Oh, I'm down a rabbit hole,” because [laughs] Thomas did a video on it and now I need to know more about it. So, he does create his great content on YouTube.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I thought it was really great. What's interesting is when I had asked for questions from listeners, a lot of the main questions I got, they actually wanted to know about his family and his wife. So, that's how I started off the show and I thought it was-- I think it was a nice way to start because he was able to speak too like his wife's experience with social media and it was a really fun conversation.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I spoke at an event with him, so I met him in October of 2021, and he is as nice and down to earth as they could be. It was kind of Ben Azadi and I and Anna Cabeca and some other people spoke at this event, and he was just so gracious. He's actually little bit shy, which I was surprised by. I think people are surprised to learn that I'm shy, but he's really shy, but could not have been nicer. Really nice guy. He seems like a very devoted husband and parent to his kids.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and actually that's how I ended it, was asking him about how he deals with diet and nutrition and all of that with his kids. So, yeah, I really enjoyed it. So where are you speaking?

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm speaking at Low Carb Denver and this is probably the event I've been most excited to speak at because so many of my friends are speaking at it. It's going to be like a big reunion, [laughs] which will be a lot of fun. Some of my team is coming, and it's in Denver, and we have family in Denver, and so for me it's always a special place to fly to. And I can fly direct, Melanie, that's huge. [laughs] Where I live in the United States nothing flies direct. So, if I can fly direct, it's a win-win.

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. Awesome, awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for this show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. I'm just thinking about how I need to update that page. If anybody is looking for an internship, I should probably start, like, publicizing this. I haven't actually listed. Have you had an intern before?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, not yet.

Melanie Avalon: I need to list this. I just need to take the step to put the listing up, but I should probably start putting that out to the universe. If anybody's in school and would like to do an internship, I just would love to bring on an intern tangents. And you can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast, Cynthia is @cynthia_ thurlow_. The show notes for today's episode that will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, because we talked about a lot of stuff. So, the Safe Catch coupon, Joovv, all the studies, the AvalonX supplements, all the things that will be at ifpodcast.com/episode307. All righty, anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, this has been great.

Melanie Avalon: Likewise, and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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