Episode 306: Shower Thoughts, Chewing Ice, Gum, Easy Recipes Ideas, Picky Eaters, Berberine, Ozempic, Insulin, Glucagon, And More!
Welcome to Episode 306 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
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SHOW NOTES
Visit IFpodcast.com/episode306 For FULL Shownotes, And IFPodcast.com/StuffWeLike For All The Stuff We Like!
1:10 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!
4:10 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
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Check Out Cynthia's creatine and other products at cynthiathurlow.com!
14:50 - Listener Q&A: Kara - Does chewing ice breaks a fast… if I’ve chewed on gum everyday for 20 years- is it possible my body has adjusted to this and knows no food is coming when it registers Trident gum?
26:25 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast
28:00 - Listener Q&A: Desiree - Need easy healthy meals for busy family of 6....3 of which are very picky!!
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Check out Noel Tarr's Recipes at @coconutandkettlebells on Instagram!
37:10 - Listener Q&A: Eileen - Favorite brand of Berberine and when do you take it? What are your thoughts on the use of the diabetic drug, Semaglutide (Ozempic), for weight loss?
NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST
GLP-1/GLP-1R Signaling in Regulation of Adipocyte Differentiation and Lipogenesis
49:10 - NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And Get 1 Month Of
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Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 306 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
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And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup maybe playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the new born. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.
Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means, when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive.
I use their overnight resurfacing peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.
Lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This Is Episode number 306 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.
Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie. How are you?
Melanie Avalon: I am good. What is new in your life?
Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, let's see. By the time this comes out, I will have been back from one trip and looking forward to another. So, I'm kind of in this perfect haze right now of two trips in February; one for pleasure, one for work. Same thing in April; one for pleasure, one for work [chuckles] and so knowing that I'm not doing as much traveling as I did last year right now is feeling really good. Like I'm in a sweet spot. I'm always in the midst of planning travel, but right now it's been those kinds of things I'm looking forward to and getting my kids enrolled. They're both doing programs at Duke this summer. So, it's exciting/terrifying that they're going to be away for two weeks [laughs] in a very safe environment, academic environment, but still, they'll only be about 2 hours away from home. I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, they're really big kids now." How about you?
Melanie Avalon: I definitely need your travel skills. I met Max Travel once a month and even that is too much for me. Yes, so actually, by the time this comes out it will be really exciting because I think we will have launched a new form of subscriptions for either all of my supplements or one of my supplements. We're moving towards doing a type of subscription where people only get one bottle rather than multiple bottles to help cut down on waste and shipping costs and all of that, so I'm really really excited about that. I feel like there's so much potential with everything, especially now having my own product line and like you as well Cynthia, I just always want to make everything better and improve and optimize. It's exciting to see how we can continue to do that with sustainability on the subscription and the bottle side of things. I already have glass bottles, [chuckles] but I think I mentioned this before, like, I still have plastic caps, of course, so I want to look at that there. It's just exciting to always be innovating and all of that. Which, speaking of, here's a little fun fact. Do you know why people often have epiphanies in the shower?
Cynthia Thurlow: No.
Melanie Avalon: Did you know there's like psychology behind that?
Cynthia Thurlow: No.
Melanie Avalon: This is so interesting. I read this in one book and then I interviewed who was I interviewing about this? Marc Milstein. I just interviewed him. He wrote a book called The Age-Proof Brain and it was a really amazing comprehensive look at why we have brain aging and it was a fascinating conversation. In any case, the way our brains work, they did a study where they interviewed really high performing people. It was like Nobel Prize winners, like people who were like at the top of their game in different jobs. So, like art and science and they thought that everybody would have different ways of innovation, but it was actually all very similar, which was that the people dedicated a lot of time and focus and effort into learning the skill, or practicing or doing the thing, and then they would have moments of not doing that and then that's when their insight would come to them. So, I think was it, Billy Joel? One of them was like a singer. He said the best tunes often came to him when he washing the dishes. So, in order to innovate, the key seems to be to put a lot of effort and time and focus into learning your skill, and focusing on that and then having this time where you're not. So, when you're in the shower, being in the shower is one of the only times in the day, especially in our modern society, where we're always on our phones, where you're literally not doing anything else. I mean, unless you have your phone in the shower, but you're not doing anything, you're not mentally engaging in something like, you're not reading, you're not on your phone and so it's this moment where your brain actually is in this resting mode and it can have these epiphanies, [chuckles] which is super interesting.
Cynthia Thurlow: That is really interesting. It makes a great deal of sense because most people are not tethered to a piece of technology in the shower, hopefully.
Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Yeah, super cool. I love learning about the brain. Yeah, anything else or shall we just jump into everything for today?
Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I think I should probably mention that creatine subscriptions are coming. So, by the time this comes out, we are going to be offering two bags every three months. If people lock into the discounted price that is for your lifetime, which is really exciting. And then the very beginning of March, we're going to start talking about my brand-new supplement that's coming out. Melanie, knows what it is, but I'm not yet allowed to discuss it. Suffice it to say, it will continue to focus on brain, sleep, and metabolic health. So, it'll be consistent with creatine, obviously a different product. It's a single ingredient, which I love. I don't know if you saw Huberman just had like a podcast episode or was talking about this, how he's a fan of single ingredient supplements so that you know exactly what you're getting as opposed to like a hodgepodge of five or six things together like a blend. There's nothing wrong with having a blend, but their benefits from a solitary ingredient as opposed to many different ingredients.
Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more about the single ingredients. I think it's so, so important. Yeah, I am so, so passionate about the single ingredients because again, we're not putting down blends. There are a lot of really great blends out there, but there's just something really nice to really testing one thing at a time and knowing how it's affecting you, and being able to titrate accordingly. For listeners, all of the resources for everything, for the AvalonX supplements, they can go to avalonx.us/emaillist, to get updates or avalonx.us, to get the supplements. The coupon code, MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off sitewide for everything and you can get a 20% off code if you text AVALONX 877-861-8318. Cynthia, how about you for your supplements?
Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, just go directly to cynthiathurlow.com and we have everything on my home page that will allow you to gain access to creatine with a subscription which will be coming out in mid, actually, February 10th, and then the new subscription will be announced very beginning of March.
Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome. Well, we will put links to all of that in the show notes. Okay. We can start with some listener questions. So, we have a question from Kara. The subject is, "Is chewing ice clean fasting?" And Kara says, "Hi, I've researched a lot and listened to a ton of your podcasts/interviews listening for you to answer about if chewing ice breaks a fast. I'm a 20 -plus year sugar free gum chewer Trident all day. So, to fast clean I'm trying to break the gum habit with chewing on ice instead, but I heard someone say anything that makes your brain think food is coming needs to be out. So, is chewing ice still considered clean? Part 2, if I've chewed gum every day for 20 years, is it possible my body has adjusted to this and knows that no food is coming when it registers Trident gum?" Thank you.
Cynthia Thurlow: Okay Kara, well, these are two very different things. Chewing on water which is frozen water is ice, I think is very different than chewing gum. I would imagine that you are not breaking a clean fast by chewing water or chewing ice. However, if you are using sugar free gum, which has chemicals that are impacting your saliva and getting your body potentially ready to accommodate a food bolus if you were chewing a food-like substance other than gum is very different, so I would say yes to chewing ice. I think that's probably pretty benign. I would say chewing on gum is technically going to tell your body that food is coming. There's this whole cephalic phase insulin response in response to your body thinking that food is coming. That is always something that I encourage people to just be cognizant of. If you are weight loss resistant, if anyone's weight loss resistant, this is when some of these things can make a little bit of an impact. Most of those sugar free gums are made with if it's not sucralose, they're generally made with non-nutritive sweeteners. There's gums and fillers and sometimes even seed oils that are in these products, so just try to pick a clean option. Melanie, I know you mentioned that we've gotten this question a couple of times over the years. What's your opinion?
Melanie Avalon: We have answered this, but it was quite a while ago. By the way, for listeners, if they go to ifpodcast.com there's a search option there and you can search through, it's a very good search, because how some sites don't have that good of a search. Ours is really good and we have transcripts on all of the episodes, so if we talked about it, it will find it. So, for example, I just searched for ice and a lot of things came up. But apparently, we talked about this in episode 105. So, 200 episodes ago, which is crazy. We answered a question from Kelly, "Does eating ice break the fast?" but it's been a while, so we can answer that again. So, it's a really good question. It goes back to what I think I was talking about last week, which is the concept of breaking a fast and why are certain things breaking a fast and other things not? Why is blood sugar raising from coffee or tea, for example, breaking a fast, but not from exercise or stress?
So, same with the chewing and the ice. Like having that chewing response, like Cynthia was saying, might activate certain digestive processes. The sweet taste, like Cynthia, was mentioning, might activate that cephalic phase insulin response. So, again, it's the nitty gritty in the nuances but I actually think it's really important because it might affect your experience of the fast and I think it might be individual for different people. Chewing ice is not adding calories to your body, but is it making your body think food is coming in and if so, is it going to have hormonal effects that might make it more difficult to maintain the fast. It's a lot of things that I think people get really hung up on, and perhaps rightly so, because I think it's really important to understand what is and what is not being conducive to how you're experiencing everything. For Kara's question, the gum and the ice, and Cynthia mentioned all this, but I mean, the gum that's chewing with all of this flavor signaling and sweetness and so that is definitely sending your body messages of food.
The ice, it's really just the chewing part of it because presumably the ice is not flavored. I think in the ideal world, moving away from this and moving to just water, black coffee, tea would be the ideal way to go. I really like your second question, Kara, about, "Is it possible that your body has adjusted to this because you've been doing it for 20 years?" That's a really good question. I don't think anybody's asked that before. I actually don't know. I don't know how the body works with memory related to all of this. Does it learn and make that association? I really don't know. It still doesn't change my answer, though, which is that having that sweetness, I think, is sending mixed messages. A lot of those ingredients, I think, are things we probably don't want to be taking in anyways. So, do you have thoughts on that, Cynthia, that her body might have learned because she's been chewing so long that it's not having calories?
Cynthia Thurlow: Obviously, I'm not a brain physiologist researcher, but I think about the net impact of a lot of gum products that have the non-nutritive sweeteners, many of them have got seed oils in them and I can't imagine that a product like that is per se something that your body gets accustomed to, like other types of things, like other types of beneficial stressors, like exercise or heat or cold exposure. I don't know the answer to that. I didn't look for any research on that. But I think, unfortunately, the more I know about gum in general, unless you're using, like, a really clean option, your buccal mucosa, which is the mucosa in your mouth, is very vascular. We give a lot of medications, in particular that route because it is so vascular. I just think about the net impact of those kinds of things, and I just think there're so many other ways around it. I know Gin was a huge proponent of, I think, it was the WOW Drops as an option and like brushing your teeth and there're just so many other things you can do that probably are a whole lot healthier than most conventional gum. I'm sure there are some clean gums out there, the flavor doesn't last very long, but definitely something you want to avoid if at all possible.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and it's interesting. I used to chew all the gum I was obsessed with. Do you remember those dessert gums? Did you ever have those?
Cynthia Thurlow: I don't think so.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. It was like Willy Wonka.
Cynthia Thurlow: I was about to say was it like Willy Wonka?
Melanie Avalon: Yes, and I literally tasted, like, they have apple pie and it literally tasted like you're eating apple pie. I would go through a pack of that stuff. Did you ever have the chewing gum habit where you just go through the pack?
Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, yeah! I mean, I was one of the people that never drank coffee, and I would round on patients in the hospital, and there's nothing worse than being a patient and having some stinky providers breath, like coffee breath or whatever they've been eating or consuming onions. I was always very cognizant of that, so I would chew gum for a little while and I'd spit it out and I have more. So, yeah, there was definitely a time period. What's interesting is during the pandemic, I wasn't traveling like most of us and I had this gum habit that I only chewed gum when I was in the car, and I only chewed gum when I was in the hospital. I completely lost the desire to chew gum and I literally have not chewed gum in like three years. I now laugh that I used to be such a conscientious-- I'm still a conscientious breath person, but I'm now finding other ways to freshen my breath that do not involve some of the junkie gums that are out there. It's interesting when you were mentioning the dessert gums, I was literally, in my mind thinking, that sounds like Willy Wonka.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. It was completely like Willy Wonka, which I didn't realize until recently that the Wonka brand of candy no longer exists, which made me really sad to hear. But interestingly, I haven't chewed gum in years and it wasn't because of the fasting. It was because of TMDD, what people call TMJ, which is actually TMDD, which really just exacerbated that, which interestingly-- Do you have any experience or do people who have had Botox in their what is that muscle called, the masseter jaw muscle. Do you know anybody who's done that for TMJ?
Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I've had friends that have done that for TMJ and then also friends who've had debilitating migraines and have done Botox and have had really good results with that. For anyone that's the same, this is not for cosmetic purposes. These are people that have tried everything and are just looking for some relief. Yes, and I know the research on both has been pretty compelling, obviously covered by insurance because these neuromodulators are not just for aesthetics. They can also help people that are dealing with muscular tension that's creating pain, in some instances, chronic pain.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I actually just got that done and I feel like I might need to put some more in. Apparently, that muscle requires a lot of Botox units because basically what it does is it's paralyzing the muscle and so you're not having that clenching, the issue I have at night is I just really really clench. I'm really excited to see if it helps. Apparently, she would show me before and after pictures. Apparently, I think it's popular in Asia, they will do it aesthetically because it will slim your face. Because if you have really intense muscles there, it widens your jaw on your face so you can do it aesthetically. I'm doing it completely for the TMDD. If anybody lives in Atlanta actually the reason, I found out about this was it's the place where I get my Emsculpt that I'm obsessed with, the muscle stimulation. So, they do Botox there aesthetically and medically like this, so Slim Studio in Atlanta I'm obsessed with, definitely check them out. So, I'll let you know. I really hope that it's effective because I've had TMJ issues for so long. Have you had those issues at all?
Cynthia Thurlow: No. Did you have braces?
Melanie Avalon: I did and I had my wisdom teeth out and that's when it started.
Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I was going to say, it seems to be like the patients of mine that had braces, I mean, I've had braces and I've had my wisdom teeth out because I just have the classic when I think about James Nestor's book, the classic like, small face, small mouth and big teeth. And so thankfully I don't, but I don't eat bread. I mean, not things that make my mouth open, like obscenely large but I remember years ago when I did eat bread and eat subs and things that you grew up with, if you grew up at the Jersey Shore, I could sometimes get like a clicking in my jaw, but never pain.
Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. I used to have really bad clicking and it was an issue when I would record audiobooks because you would hear the clicking.
Cynthia Thurlow: Interesting. Our next sponsor is Athletic Greens. I take AG1 by Athletic Greens most days of the week. I initially tried it because I travel so frequently and it just makes my life so much easier to have a convenient healthy option. I typically will take it in the morning, after working out, or after my morning tea, and it makes me feel like I have so much more energy. And for me, it's all about convenience, I can take my travel packs with me whether I'm traveling for business, whether I'm traveling for pleasure. I can throw it in my bag and I know I can make it through security without any issues. AG1 has been part of millions of mornings since 2010 and a part of my morning for the last three to four years. It's made with 75 super high-quality vitamins and minerals, as well as whole food sourced ingredients that positively benefit my energy and sleep. I also love that they are supporters of donating to organizations helping to get nutritious food to kids in need including No Kid Hungry here in the United States. Athletic Greens has donated over 1.2 million meals to kids in 2020. So, if you want to take ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. These travel packs make it so easy and convenient to bring Athletic Greens with you anywhere. Go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast that’s athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast, definitely check it out.
Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to our next question?
Cynthia Thurlow: Sure.
Melanie Avalon: Here's a question from one of our AMAs and it's from Desiree and she says, "I need easy, healthy meals for a busy family of six, three of which are very picky." I know Cynthia, you and I have had conversations about this, so I would love to hear your thoughts about dealing with picky children.
Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Well, I'm just going to tell you what works well in our house. I have two very athletic teenagers. I have a husband who still plays competitive sports, does Jiu Jitsu, etc. The only way we survive is meal prep. It's not sexy. You have to meal prep. We meal prep at least two days a week. That means steaks, burgers, roasted chicken, vegetables that are prepped, making sure that the kids are involved in meal prep in terms of things that they want to have for their school lunches or have for snacks. Yes, they're still in this massive anabolic phase, so they eat a lot of food. That's the only way we survive and it's always been our philosophy. Obviously, I now have teenagers, but we never prepared different meals. The expectations were that whatever we prepared for dinner was what everyone was eating or the next meal was breakfast. My kids have learned to have a pretty diverse palate. They weren't kids that just ate chicken nuggets and French fries and I think a lot of parents, because it's hard, I get it when your kids are younger, you want to get them to eat. But children sometimes need to have food introduced to them 20 times before they will acclimate to it, whether it's a vegetable, a fruit, a protein, etc.
We've never allowed our kids to-- obviously they have preferences, let me be clear, but my children weren't allowed to pick and choose. It was like, this is what's being served, and if you don't want to eat, your next meal is breakfast. And we've never had that happen ever. [laughs] I think it's because we've just set that expectation. You have to meal prep, setting expectations. This is why I think Green Chef is a great option. My kids are now at an age where when we get a Green Chef box, they can put the meal together themselves.
Obviously, they eat two or three portions at a time. It's definitely you have to make sure you have enough food based on where your kids are age wise. Green Chef is one of those easy options where you can pick whatever nutritional profile you're interested in. We usually do paleo or keto and then we just lean into it. We can pick the proteins and that's worked really really well. I have a child with life-threatening food allergies, so we're able to navigate that. You know 'they' meaning Green Chef, has really been great about avoiding nuts and peanuts and things like that. Melanie, what are your thoughts?
Melanie Avalon: This is another reason I probably am not made to have kids. [chuckles] Oh, it's just so much to deal with. When I read it, I was going to suggest Green Chef, so I'm glad that you brought that up. If listeners would like to check out Green Chef, they can go to greenchef.com/ifpodcast. The code changes around, the most recent code was IFPODCAST599. That actually got $5.99 per meal on your first box, which ships free, which is super awesome. I'm not a parent, so I can't really speak to this super amazingly but ButcherBox, huge fan of ButcherBox as far as sourcing really delicious meat that would come straight to your door. That can really help save on time. What's really great, I think if you have a lot of freezer space or a chest freezer, you can just always have lots of chicken and steak and everything in the freezer, so then really easy access to that, so butcherbox.com/ifpodcast will get you whatever offer is current. Right now, for example, you can actually get a chuck roast and a whole chicken all for free. That's a grass-fed and grass-finished chuck roast. That is organic, free range whole chicken and $10 off. That's an amazing offer, that's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. I think, especially with the whole chicken, I know that's a really cool route to go, because that's something that you can make last for a long time. Like, you can actually make the chicken in the beginning and use the actual meat and rotisserie, and then you can save it for making soups and bone broth and things like that so that's really incredible. Yeah, as far as the pickiness, I really like your approach, Cynthia, of making the meal and this is what it is and people can eat or not eat.
Again, I don't have kids, but I think if I were to have kids, because I've been asked this a lot and I've thought about this a lot. And again, this actually is a reason that I don't see myself having kids because I don't want to deal with all of this. I just think that our modern food environment is so toxic to our health and our life and so many things, and so how do you raise children to eat healthy, but also not make them feel stifled and to the point where they rebel or feel like they can't eat certain things and create a food complex which you wouldn't want anyways. So, the way I've thought about if I were to have kids, how I would do it and how I would deal with pickiness and everything is-- and this is what I hear on a lot of podcasts I listen to, like I love Robb Wolf's podcast, Healthy Rebellion Radio. They talk a lot about how they raise their kids with food and things like that. I really just like the approach of making the messaging around food being about the health and about how you can eat different foods, but they might not make you feel very good. [chuckles]
Certain foods will make you feel good and other foods might not. Food isn't good or bad. It just has different effects. And so, If I had kids within my house that's where I would have the control over what can be eaten. In my house, I would choose what type of food was in the house. If we had meals, I would not entertain the pickiness if that makes sense. So, I would not accommodate the pickiness. I would just, like Cynthia said, have the meals and this is what we're having. I would make it very clear that when they are out in the world that certain foods probably won't make them feel good if they eat them. So, I think approaching everything with love and education and also just not entertaining pickiness, which I understand, I bet so many moms are listening and be like, Melanie, you don't have kids, [laughs] what are you saying from your high horse? But those are my thoughts about that. I wish I had more insight.
Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and the other thing is you have so much more control when your kids are younger because you're their whole world. Whereas now I have a 15-year-old and a 17-year-old, and they go to sports events, they do things independently, they're much more independent and so you have to hope that you're investing in them really good tenets for being able to navigate nutrition. I jokingly-- we've now been to four colleges for my 17-year-old to look at for applying for next year. It's been interesting, for him, being a very athletic 17-year-old going to a campus where there are a lot of food choices or they have nationally ranked food options has been a big focus beyond wanting to do an engineering program let me be clear. His priorities are in the right place, but he keeps saying, like, "I don't know what I'm going to do when I go off to college." I'm so used to having all this healthy food. I just said, "You're going to make good choices, you're going to make bad choices, but hopefully you understand enough about what's designed to fuel your body versus hyper palatable foods." It just gets a whole lot more interesting/challenging the older that they get. So, definitely just keep reintroducing things, meal prep, set the expectation. I grew up at a time when my Italian mother meant it, when she said, this is the meal you're served. I went to bed without food many times not because I didn't have food, I just didn't want to eat what was served. That's a powerful lesson to learn as a child or teenager. Even if they do that, they'll be okay.
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, I love that so, so much. I'll also refer people to my friend Noelle Tarr. She's the co-host of Well-Fed Women. She has an amazing blog and she's always doing incredible recipes. So, definitely check her stuff out. Her Instagram is @coconutsandkettlebells. Actually, I think their book Coconuts and Kettlebells has a lot of recipes, so that might be something to check out as well. She has two kids who are adorable, but she's always talking about cooking as a busy mom for kids. I think to answer this question, probably finding somebody a resource that is somebody who talks about this regularly and then following their stuff. Okay, shall we go on to our next question?
Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. Eileen's AMA question is "Favorite brand of berberine and when to take it and what are your thoughts on the use of the diabetic drug semaglutide or Ozempic for weight loss?"
Melanie Avalon: Okay. I'm really excited about both of these questions. Berberine, [chuckles] this might go without saying, but I did recently release my own berberine, which I'm thrilled about. I'll put a link in the show notes. We did an entire deep dive episode into it with Scott Emmens. If you listen to Episode 296 of this podcast, that's a deep deep dive into berberine. Basically, long story short, berberine is a natural plant alkaloid that has been shown to have profound benefits on blood sugar regulation. In studies it actually can rival the effects of metformin, which is the go-to pharmaceutical drug for blood sugar control. It's been shown to do that without potential side effects that might come with pharmaceuticals, especially if you're wearing a CGM that we're big fans of. It's nice that you can see how it might affect your blood sugar levels. It does that by a lot of different mechanisms. It can actually inhibit the absorption of glucose in the gut, so that's a direct action and beyond that, this is actually going to tie into my answer about the semaglutide. It stops gluconeogenesis so the production of new sugar in the liver because a lot of people think that resting high blood sugar levels and the issues from that are from the food that we just ate, which that probably is the initial cause for a lot of people for high blood sugar levels and prediabetes and diabetes.
In the moment, high resting blood sugar levels are pretty much coming from your liver, especially like high fasting glucose levels. It actually stops that in the liver. It can have a profound effect there. It can modulate the gut microbiome beneficially, so preferentially increase "good bacteria" and I use quote because are they really good and bad bacteria? It's really hard to make that case, actually, but it can increase bacteria that can have a good effect, like short chain fatty acid production and metabolic health and discourage "bad bacteria" that can have a negative effect. One of my favorite benefits, it has been shown to stimulate both AMPK and autophagy, which are two things we talk about on this show a lot. AMPK not quite as much, but autophagy all the time. Autophagy is a cellular clean-up process where the body actually goes down and breaks down problematic proteins in your body, and recycles them. It's kind of like a cleanse on the cellular level. Fasting is a great way to stimulate autophagy, so is exercise, but berberine has been shown to stimulate it as well. That AMPK pathway, that is also a pathway that's often activated by fasting as well as it's activated by any cellular stress. So, dieting, exercise, fasting and it's connected to a lot of longevity benefits, so berberine can activate that as well.
For the question about what is the best berberine, I wanted to formulate the best berberine on the market that's why it took so so long for us to actually make my berberine, because we kept checking different sources and nothing was testing for the purity and potency that we wanted. We finally found a source and we made it without problematic fillers and it's just absolutely incredible. It comes in a glass bottle tested multiple times for purity and potency and all the things, I'm taking it every day. Yes, you can get it at avalonx.us coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off, that is berberine. Cynthia, have you ever taken berberine?
Cynthia Thurlow: I have. This is where bio individuality certainly prevails. I've taken berberine as antimicrobial, it is quite potent. It's one of the few things, I'm very sensitive to berberine. So, for as many people as it's very helpful, I think there are those of us that just we have to take things a little more cautiously. This is where I will-- I actually cycle my patients on and off of berberine so they'll stay on for a period of time and then we'll cycle them off and try some other things to help with insulin sensitivity. I think it's very bio individual, but I do think there's a lot of compelling research and good information. It's as efficacious as Glucophage or Metformin, which is an oral diabetes medication. Certainly, with the rampant metabolic ill health here in the United States and most westernized countries, it's definitely something that people can utilize as needed or certainly take daily if you tolerate it.
Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you drew attention to that. Some people do cycle on and off, some people do long term, but I definitely think it's really important to find what works for you and ideally work with a practitioner if possible. To answer her question about when to take it, conventionally people usually take it before meals. I actually take it when I wake up, so in the morning or the fasted state, and that's what I like. It's something that you can experiment with and play around and you'll probably again, having a CGM is really nice because then you can actually see how it's affecting your responses to meals and things like that. We love NutriSense. So, if you go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST, you can get a discount on NutriSense CGMs. Okay. I'm super excited about her second question. She says, "What are your thoughts on the use of the diabetic drug semaglutide, Ozempic for weight loss? Do you have thoughts on this one, Cynthia?
Cynthia Thurlow: I do. I'm actually going to be bringing on an expert. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon and I are very good friends and we're trying to align our calendars because she uses it quite a bit in her practice. I have limited prescribing and limited experience with it beyond peers, many of whom are-- they love Ozempic. They've got patients that are having incredible results from it. I think it's always with a bit of caution. Interestingly enough, there was a whole conversation on Twitter about [chuckles] semaglutide probably about two weeks ago. I'm going to include the journal article that was submitted with it because it was very interesting. I read it with great interest. It's a little sciencey, but there's a nice kind of abstract at the very top. The two big things that I always think are important to counsel patients about number one, side effects and they can be quite significant. If you're someone that is prone to nausea that can be a dose related issue, so for some people, you really have to go low and slow with the dosing mechanisms. And this is something that's injected subcutaneously. So, you're keeping it stored in the refrigerator. You're drying up at a time, injecting it into your abdomen depending on the directions that you're getting from your healthcare practitioner. Some people have a little bit of nausea, some people have no nausea, some people have a lot of nausea, described to me as this is what it felt like when I was pregnant, that's pretty significant.
The other major side effect that patients are reporting is constipation. It's designed to slow gut motility, so that you feel satiated and full. One of the side effects is you don't get hungry because your gut motility is kind of slowed down. For a lot of people that's what mitigates the weight loss, but they also get terribly constipated. That for me, for a lot of women, they've had to really balance how much do they want to be taking this drug, how badly do they want to lose weight. For a lot of people, they're focused on the weight loss and changes in body composition. I always focus more on metabolic health, like if you're insulin resistant, if you've got weight to lose. Actually, I'm preparing a presentation right now talking about insulin sensitive, obese people. Not everyone who is obese or overweight is insulin resistant, but in the context of this question, I think it's really interesting. The paper that I'm looking at is called GLP-1, which is the type of drug signaling and regulation of adipocytes, so those are fat cells, differentiation and lipogenesis. I'm kind of scanning through, I've read the whole thing already. Some of the concerns that have been expressed by some of the scientists is the potentiality for this rebound.
When you stop taking the drug, you're going to get a rebound because all of a sudden, you're now hungry in many ways probably appropriately. There was some concern about the differentiation in adipose tissue and so taken together in this study, we demonstrated that GLP-1, which is the type of drug that it is, can directly promote preadipocyte differentiation via a different mechanism. A lot of the scientists on Twitter were expressing concern saying we don't think this is like magic in a bottle. I think what I'm saying is, I'm not an expert. I think anytime we have drugs that come to market that are designed to fuel rapid weight loss and I think about Fen-Phen, I'm old enough to have lived through that where people were given phentermine and a drug that ended up causing some heart damage and that's not what I'm suggesting is happening here. I'm just saying we don't know. This is actually done in a mouse model as well as in vitro. For me, I think it's always approach things cautiously, make sure you fully understand, you get fully informed consent, you understand, the practitioner you're working with. This is not something you go to some clinic, like you do actually want to have an established relationship with someone and just make sure you're both going through the side effects, the pros and cons and make sure it's something you feel comfortable with. Do you have any thoughts, Melanie?
Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, what was it saying about the preadipocytes?
Cynthia Thurlow: It says the GLP can directly promote preadipocyte differentiation via a GLP-1 receptor dependent mechanism. I will include this in the show notes and it's actually really interesting. It's very sciencey. It's a cellular physiology in biochemistry paper, but it's one that was getting passed around between the clinicians and it's one I actually hung on to when I knew that we might potentially talk about this at some point.
Melanie Avalon: I'd like to read it. What is that saying? I mean, preadipocyte differentiation. How so? How is it differentiating them? Do you know?
Cynthia Thurlow: I think the concern is that, I'm actually just sending it to you right now, we don't fully understand yet what the long-term effects are going to be and there's some mTOR dysregulation that goes on. I mean, there's a lot of discussion that's going on that it's not as benign and that's not a bad thing. I think when people are questioning a drug that's being utilized and people are very interested in it that's not a bad thing. Because I think like most things, we have to continue doing research to determine what are the long-term effects. Obviously, if we're looking at individuals who are not metabolically healthy, losing weight is going to beneficial, like ultimately losing weight. But is it something that they're going to be able to sustain after they stop the drug. Because the drug from what I understand is not designed to be taken forever. It's supposed to be something that facilitates weight loss. The way that it's working, the mechanism in the small intestine is it's making people feel full. It's making people feel so full they're not eating. This wouldn't be a drug I would be super excited to introduce to someone who's already fasting unless there's someone that's struggling to kind of moderate their food consumption. Again, working with someone that's well versed, I will be having, if not Gabrielle, it's going to be another expert. I'm going to have them on in March so that we can talk about it, because I'm getting so many questions. I'm like, I don't work with this drug. I just work with people who are already on it and then having conversations with their own healthcare practitioners to help them moderate their side effects that they're experiencing because nausea and constipation, most of us don't like.
Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. We talk all the time on this show about the beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and especially how it can affect your blood sugar levels. How much do we talk about this? How diet affects them, how exercise affects them, how fasting affects them? But how do you actually know what your blood sugar levels are? Besides when you go to the doctor and get a snapshot of that one moment in time or give yourself a finger prick, which again is a snapshot of that one moment in time. What if you could know what your blood sugar was all the time? That would be revolutionary insight that could really help you meet your health and wellness goals. Guess what? You can do that now. I'm going to tell you how to save $30 off while doing it. We are obsessed with a company called NutriSense. They provide access to and interpretations of the data from the biosensors known as Continuous Glucose Monitors aka CGMs.
Your blood sugar level can significantly impact how your body feels and functions. NutriSense lets you analyze in real time how your glucose levels respond to food, exercise, sleep, and stress. How does that work? Well, a CGM is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time. The application is easy and painless I promise, promise, promise. Check out my Instagram. I have so many videos of putting them on, so you can see what that process is like. It's actually really fun. Then you can use the NutriSense app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log your meals, run experiments, and so much more, and you get expert dietitian guidance. Each subscription plan includes one month free of dietitian support. One of my friends recently got a CGM and she was going on and on about how cool it was to talk one on one with a dietitian who could help her interpret her results. Your dietician will help you interpret the data and provide suggestions based on your goals. Of course, if you're already super knowledgeable in this space, they will still be able to provide you more advanced tips and recommendations. Friends, seeing this data in real time is what makes it easy to identify what you're doing well and where there's room for improvement.
Some benefits and outcomes that you can experience, weight loss, stable energy throughout the day, better sleep, understanding which foods are good for you, controlling your cravings, seeing how you're responding to fasting, and so much more. Each device lasts for 14 days and of course, lasting, sustainable change takes time and that can be achieved with a longer-term subscription. We definitely encourage you to choose a six or twelve-month subscription which are cheaper per month and allow you to not only achieve your goals but also ensure that you stick to your healthy lifestyle for the long term. You can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code, IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That's nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code, IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. Friends you want to be in the world of CGMs. It is such a cool experience and you will learn so much, so definitely check it out and we'll put all this information in the show notes.
I'm really fascinated by this drug. I've been hearing a lot about it. What's interesting is it was originally approved to treat diabetes. It only recently got approved for weight loss. Now it's approved for weight loss if you have a BMI over 30 or if you have a BMI over 27 and then you have one related health condition, that's what it's actually approved for. There was a really interesting review that came out in May 2022 called Semaglutide for the treatment of overweight and obesity: A review, shocker. And so that actually reviewed, they did a lot of trials called the STEP trials, so they did eight of them. and so, this was thousands of participants. They looked at semaglutide in multiple different situations, people with diabetes, and each trial was different things. They would compare it with behavioral modifications. One of the trials, they actually compared it with an intense dietary restriction. One of the trials looked at the Asian population.
Overall, the findings were pretty impressive. A once weekly subcutaneous semaglutide injection of 2.4 mg was consistently associated with mean weight losses of 14.9 to 17.4 in participants without diabetes. They also saw improvements in cardiometabolic risk factors, physical function, and quality of life. They say that it has a relative low risk safety profile, which again, Cynthia was talking about. We don't know the long-term effects of this, which is very true and definitely something to keep in mind. The side effects do tend to be nausea. Interestingly, originally, they were saying nausea and diarrhea, but I've heard constipation a lot. I remember when I first heard about it, it was actually Peter Attia talking about it on his podcast and he was talking about the constipation. I was like, nope, I can never take that. But to go back to the actual mechanism of action, though, and this when I was talking about the berberine and I said that something was going to relate.
So, there're three main things going on with why they think this is working. It actually increases insulin production, which originally it was and still is used for people with diabetes and prediabetes. So, increasing insulin can reduce blood sugar levels. [laughs] People are probably listening and being like, wait, I thought what we're trying to do all the time is decrease insulin production. The second part of this is that it actually decreases glucagon. That's why it's actually a potent long-acting glucagon like peptide GLP-1 analog. Because of how it interacts with the receptors, actually stops the body's production of glucagon and so what glucagon does is actually encourages the release of sugar, glucose, essentially, from the liver. A lot of people with insulin resistance and issues with managing their blood sugar levels, and this goes back to what I was also saying earlier about how people often think that we're trying to fight the food we just ate. But really the thing that insulin is having to fight 24/7 is sugar being released from the liver. Think about it, a lot of people often will have glucagon going on, which it should be when glucagon is on and insulin is-- like it should be a like a seesaw.
A lot of people can have them both going on at the same time. People are having high blood sugar levels and the liver is releasing blood sugar and then the pancreas is having to continually release insulin to combat that. I found a fascinating study granted this is a rodent trial and it's from quite a while ago, but it was looking at rodents that they literally obliterated their pancreas, like they weren't able to produce insulin. This was fascinating. When they turned off glucagon, the rodents completely normalized their blood sugar issues. They weren't producing insulin, but because they weren't producing glucagon, their body was able tolerate meals and sugar because the theory in that paper is that insulin, what it's really combating is our endogenous glucose release, which would be spurred by glucagon. It's getting a little wordy, I realize, but the point is, semaglutide increases insulin while reducing glucagon. Now insulin can actually help usher blood sugar adequately into cells because it's not having to fight that blood sugar release from the liver because of the glucagon inhibition.
It also does delay gastric emptying like Cynthia was saying, so it can just affect appetite on top of that. The studies on it are really, really-- I mean, they're pretty impressive, those stats that I gave about the weight loss that was compared to placebo, and the placebo arms were always very minimal weight loss. So, I do think it's effective. I do have a lot of concerns like Cynthia was discussing about the long-term effects and she mentioned as well when people go off of it, they might rebound. I don't know, I think it's really powerful and I think it has a place, but I think it would need to be used very consciously and used as a tool to help get your body into a more healthy metabolic state, so then you can continue that on your own.
But I think what is really powerful is you can always, at any time, choose to make healthier choices, choose to do fasting, choose to change your dietary choices. Say that you use semaglutide as something to help you to become more metabolically healthy while you're on it and lose the weight. Then if you go off of it, who's stopping you from doing healthy food choices then and doing fasting then. I think a lot of people who are rebounding are people that aren't changing their diet, aren't making other changes and then they're going on this and they're going off and then they're just going back to the way they are and, of course you're going to have a rebound effect. I just like giving people agency surrounding that. One last thing I'll point out is the arm that looked at people doing semaglutide also with a restricted calorie diet type situation, they didn't see that much of a difference compared to not doing that restrictive diet, so that was pretty interesting.
Cynthia Thurlow: I think there's a lot to unpack. There're also shortages that are ongoing. Just like as a clinician, morally and ethically, there are people taking it who are already thin and just want to be thinner. That's very different than a diabetic or someone who is not very metabolically healthy taking the drug. It's going to be interesting to see what happens. I just got an advertisement in my email, I think, yesterday talking about how this one pharmacy now has semaglutide and you get two for one and who knows. But I think that much like anything, there's no panacea that's going to fix metabolic disease. This is just one of many tools that are available. I have several friends who are endocrinologists and they were saying the frustration of not being able to get the drug for patients actually who are diabetics who actually legitimately need it and need to lose weight. So, there's a lot to unpack here, but I think the big thing is if you choose to use it, make sure you're working with someone that's knowledgeable and that you're cautious and make sure you've got fully informed consent. I think that's certainly very important.
Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad that you drew attention to that and it really helped, because I think that's what I was trying to articulate when I was talking about using it as a tool if you're at a state of obesity and severe metabolic syndrome like that's when I think it would be very helpful. Especially if people-- because sometimes you just need to get that momentum going. If that's something that can help spur people to get momentum going, I think it can be a really nice tool 100%. I think there's a major issue people who are already thin, already metabolically healthy, I would not want to use it. Even when I made the comment about when I heard about the constipation and then I said, no, I wasn't thinking to clarify, I was not thinking of taking it. It's just when I hear discussions of any pharmaceutical and they say constipation is a side effect, I'm just like, I would never-- you could not pay me. I'm really really glad that you drew attention to that. Yeah, I can see how that would be a major issue. It'll be really interesting to see how it goes, how this will continue to manifest.
Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it was interesting while were talking, just for fun, I went into Twitter and looked at what was trending and now there are celebrities outing one another over the use of semaglutide. I was like, okay, that's not story worthy but there's definitely a little bit of a backflash that's going along. To me, there's no shame if you choose to use it and you and your healthcare practitioner are going to monitor you closely and maybe that's going to allow you to get to a point where you're able to lose some stubborn weight and then you can work towards ensuring you're making good choices when you come off the drug. But the other side of that coin is there are biohackers out there that use semaglutide as they use what I would refer to affectionately as really small doses, so they're microdosing semaglutide and these are people that are healthy weights. That's a whole other phenomenon that we could leave for another podcast. But there's a lot about semaglutide that is fascinating/disturbing.
Melanie Avalon: What is the intention with the microdosing?
Cynthia Thurlow: I think it helps curb appetite that's what they've told me. I the people [laughs] have mentioned to me they're using it because it's not my business. That's not what this platform is for. I am starting to see people that are microdosing it. They're using a very tiny therapeutic dose in the hopes that will help curb appetite.
Melanie Avalon: Gotcha. Well, very interesting discussion. I'll be really interested if you and Gabrielle do something on it that would be really nice.
Cynthia Thurlow: We're trying to coordinate our calendars, it's hard. She's been doing some traveling, but we will make it happen.
Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will be @ifpodcast.com/episode306. The show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?
Cynthia Thurlow: No. I love the AMA format. I think we've had a lot of fun with it. Just know that we'll continue to kind of leave these questions into our format. It's definitely been a lot of fun.
Melanie Avalon: I agree. Awesome, awesome. Well, have a wonderful week and I will talk to you next week.
Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.
Melanie Avalon: Bye.
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.
[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]
STUFF WE LIKE
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
LINKS
BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Cynthia's Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com
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